Tuesday Volume 568 15 October 2013 No. 55

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Tuesday 15 October 2013

£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2013 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 577 15 OCTOBER 2013 578

Bill. The right hon. Gentleman has assiduously cultivated House of Commons those groups in the past, and frankly, they feel betrayed. Will he explain to them why he has led the Liberal Tuesday 15 October 2013 Democrats in support of this assault on grass-roots politics? Better still, will he recognise, even at this late stage, that he has got this badly wrong and join us in The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock opposing the Bill?

PRAYERS The Deputy Prime Minister: My view is that if we did nothing about the increasing trend of big money in British politics, which seeks to influence the outcome of [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] political contests through groups that are not political parties, those very same groups would campaign after BUSINESS BEFORE QUESTIONS the next general election, saying that we should do something about that trend. At the general election, LONDON LOCAL AUTHORITIES AND TRANSPORT FOR non-party political funds doubled to £3 million. We LONDON (NO.2)BILL [LORDS] have seen what happens when that gets out of control. Just look across the Atlantic at the United States: Third Reading opposed and deferred until Tuesday super-PACs—political action committees; the increasing 22 October (Standing Order No. 20). polarisation of politics; and people outside the democratic political process, non-political parties, trying to influence HERTFORDSHIRE COUNTY COUNCIL (FILMING ON the outcome of elections. We will maintain the rules, as HIGHWAYS)BILL [LORDS] they have existed since 2000, on whether groups are Second Reading opposed and deferred until Tuesday regulated as third party campaign groups. All we are 22 October (Standing Order No. 20). saying is that non-party political parties that want to act like a political party should be asked to fill in the same paperwork as a political party. Oral Answers to Questions Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con): Does my right hon. Friend agree that there is nothing in the Bill that stops campaigns on particular policies? Furthermore, DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER we will not end up with third party groups spending more than political candidates are able to spend on their own election. The Deputy Prime Minister was asked—

Third Party Campaign Expenditure The Deputy Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is exactly right. Under the current rules, a well-funded third party campaign group seeking to influence the democratic 1. Paul Blomfield (Sheffield Central) (Lab): What his outcome in a constituency or constituencies could spend policy is on third party campaign expenditure. [900468] more money than a political party. That, surely, cannot be right. The Labour party, which is run by a third The Deputy Prime Minister (Mr Nick Clegg): Before party campaign group, the trade unions, does not think turning to the question, I pay tribute to my hon. Friend it is a problem if political parties are influenced by third the Member for Norwich North (Miss Smith) for her party campaign groups that might have political designs. excellent work in the past year on political and constitutional Nothing in the Bill would stop Make Poverty History reform. I welcome the Minister of State, Cabinet Office, spending millions on its campaign. Nothing would stop my right hon. Friend the Member for Tunbridge Wells the Green Alliance grading us all on our green promises— (Greg Clark), who will bring unique zeal to decentralisation nothing would change that. in particular, which he has championed within Government. I also welcome the hon. Member for Liverpool, West Derby (Stephen Twigg) to his new position on the John Cryer (Leyton and Wanstead) (Lab): Returning Opposition Front Bench. to planet earth, the Deputy Prime Minister regularly bleats on about the value of consultation. Why did that It is of course good that people are motivated to not apply to the lobbying Bill? There was no form of campaign for what they believe in, whether inside or consultation whatever on this wretched Bill. outside a traditional political party. However, it is also important that the integrity of democratic political campaigning is maintained. Campaigning by third parties The Deputy Prime Minister: There was extensive at general elections should therefore be made more consultation and scrutiny on the lobbying provisions in transparent and accountable. the Bill. The parts on third party campaigning were discussed extensively by the three parties in the cross-party Paul Blomfield: I am sure that the Deputy Prime funding talks. It was agreed by all parties, and backed Minister has, like many hon. Members, been contacted by Sir Christopher Kelly in his recommendations on by hundreds of people from the voluntary, charity and party funding reform, that any change to party funding community sectors who are vehemently opposed to the arrangements should also include some limits on third gagging provisions in the Transparency of Lobbying, party campaign groups when they want to influence the Non-Party Campaigning and Trade Union Administration political outcome in a constituency or constituencies. 579 Oral Answers15 OCTOBER 2013 Oral Answers 580

Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con): Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP): Is the Does the Deputy Prime Minister agree that there is Deputy Prime Minister aware that in Northern Ireland huge public demand for complete transparency in the there is a new drive for individual registration, and influence of trade unions, especially during election would he find it helpful to monitor the success of that periods and especially given the allegations concerning exercise and to learn from the experience? the actions of Unite in the affairs of the Labour party earlier this year? The Deputy Prime Minister: Absolutely; in designing the system of individual voter registration that we are The Deputy Prime Minister: I have this old-fashioned introducing, we looked very carefully at the strengths view that in all our constituencies candidates from our and weaknesses of the experience in Northern Ireland. democratic political parties should be slugging it out on The most important innovation on which we have embarked a level playing field and that we should not have people is the one I explained earlier, which is matching the very pulling the strings in the background in an untransparent large databases that we already have with information way. That is all the Bill is trying to do. Anyone who on the electoral register and, in effect, automatically believes in the integrity and transparency of democratic, enrolling millions of people on the individual voter open contest in our constituencies should support the registration system. Bill. 9. [900479] Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab): What Electoral Register will be the Electoral Commission’s budget for raising awareness of the introduction of individual electoral 2. Lindsay Roy (Glenrothes) (Lab): What steps his registration? Office is taking to improve the completeness and The Deputy Prime Minister: I will have to write to the accuracy of the Electoral Register. [900469] hon. Gentleman on the specific figure, but of course we work very closely with the Electoral Commission to The Deputy Prime Minister (Mr Nick Clegg): The ensure that we pull in the same direction to raise awareness Government will shortly publish the results of our of the changes to the new system, and we have allocated confirmation dry run exercise, which matched almost just over £4 million to various groups locally working 47 million electors against Department for Work and with us and the Electoral Commission to raise awareness Pensions data. The results were much better than we among those groups where under-registration has anticipated and, using a combination of national and historically been a problem. local data, could lead to an overall average match rate of 85%. In addition, we are making registration simpler Stephen Twigg (Liverpool, West Derby) (Lab/Co-op): by enabling online registration, and in June we announced First, I join the Deputy Prime Minister in congratulating £4.2 million-worth of measures to maximise voter the Minister of State, Cabinet Office, the right hon. Member registration ahead of the transition to individual electoral for Tunbridge Wells (Greg Clark), on his appointment. registration. The Deputy Prime Minister spoke about the data- Lindsay Roy: I thank the Deputy Prime Minister for matching dry run this summer, which I understand his answer, but will he explain what he is doing to produced an outcome nationally of 78% accuracy. Within promote voter registration among our armed services that, however, was a range of 47% to 87%. Is there not a personnel, whose percentage registration has been risk that even more electors will fall off the electoral highlighted as a cause for concern? register because of the speed at which the Government are introducing the new system? Will he consider delaying The Deputy Prime Minister: I know that the Cabinet the introduction of individual voter registration in order Office has been working with the Ministry of Defence to maximise the completeness and accuracy of the to ensure that efforts are undertaken. Considerable register? efforts have been made in the past, but where we can do more, we should do more, in order to encourage anyone The Deputy Prime Minister: As the hon. Gentleman who is eligible to vote to do so and to enter into the new knows, the data-matching tests are a dry run and have individual voter registration system, as I explained earlier. exceeded expectations. We think that the use of those central databases, particularly the DWP database, combined Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): As well as the with what we do with other databases, should raise the problem of not enough voters being registered, there is overall figure of automatic enrolment when that finally a problem of voters registered under the wrong category. happens. As he also knows, we have done a considerable Given the growing number of EU nationals in this amount to ensure that there is a two-year roll-over country who can vote in local and European elections period, so that people who do not automatically register but not in Westminster parliamentary elections, may we before the next general election will still have an opportunity have clearer guidance from his Office to that effect? to do so, while door-to-door information will be provided to people so that they will know how the new system The Deputy Prime Minister: I am not sure precisely works. We have put as many belt-and-braces provisions what my hon. Friend is referring to, but the rules are in place as possible, therefore, to ensure that the maximum very clear: EU nationals may vote in local and European number of people are on the new IER system. elections but not national elections, and electoral registration Returning Officers Fees officers are fully aware of that and, in my experience, are scrupulous in ensuring that the system reflects it. If 3. Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con): he has any particular reservations, however, he can of What his policy is on the level of fees paid to returning course bring them to my attention. officers. [900471] 581 Oral Answers15 OCTOBER 2013 Oral Answers 582

The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Greg Clark): The Deputy Prime Minister: I would love to think Returning officers are entitled under the Representation that there might be a realistic prospect of that, but, of the People Act 1983 to receive payments for frankly, I do not think that there is. We tested it to administering election polls, as those responsibilities destruction in seven meetings that brought the three fall outside their local authority duties. parties together over a prolonged period on the back of very strong recommendations from Sir Christopher Kelly Andrew Selous: These are some of the highest paid and his Committee. Not to put it too delicately, the public servants in the land, sometimes on salaries of same old vested interests relating to donation caps on about £200,000. How can we continue to justify paying the one hand and the financial relationship between the these people extra sums of £30,000 or so just to do Labour party and the trade unions on the other were, another task, for which their salary should be more once again, not reconcilable. Until we get those two than enough to compensate them? things aligned, a cross-party agreement on party funding is unlikely—but it will have to happen eventually; otherwise Greg Clark: My hon. Friend makes an excellent we will be afflicted by scandal after scandal and controversy point, and I look forward to meeting him next week to after controversy. discuss these matters further. Before the previous Government left office they increased the fees to returning Andrew George: What is my right hon. Friend doing officers, allowing fees to be paid uncapped for multiple to ensure that company shareholders, co-op members constituencies. We in this Government froze those fees and union members have a reasonable say on political from that time. I look forward to our discussions and to donations made in their name? hearing my hon. Friend’s views, which I know he has thoroughly researched. The Deputy Prime Minister: If I understand it correctly, Helen Jones (Warrington North) (Lab): May I also moves are afoot, although they are rather opaque to an welcome the right hon. Gentleman to his new post and outsider so far as the trade union funding link with the ask him to give consideration to the situation where Labour party is concerned. More generally, transparency returning officers have often made numerous mistakes has to be a good thing when money is sloshing around during elections? We had this happen several years ago the system and it could influence democratic electoral in Warrington when the wrong people were declared contests. To return to my earlier theme, this is what the elected for some parish poll, yet there is no provision to transparency provisions on third party campaigning are reduce or take away the returning officer’s fee when that all about—not to stop charities from doing their work happens. Should that not happen? Will the Minister or from campaigning, but simply to make them transparent consider that? in how the money is used, particularly where they choose to use money for explicitly political ends to Greg Clark: I am happy to take on board the hon. engineer or influence a particular outcome in a constituency. Lady’s suggestion. Of course, returning officers do not need to accept the fee. There are some honourable Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab): The problem examples where returning officers have not taken the with the Deputy Prime Minister’s position is that he full fee to which they are entitled. That option is available was willing to rush out a Bill to capture what amounts to them. to a small problem, which may well damage democracy, but he was not prepared to put the weight of his Political Party Funding position behind actually achieving a solution on party funding. 5. Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) (LD): What progress the Government has made in reviewing the law on the funding of political parties; The Deputy Prime Minister: Talk about pots and and if he will make a statement. [900474] kettles! It is no secret that, in a sense, the Liberal Democrats are not rich enough to have quite the vested 6. Andrew George (St Ives) (LD): What recent interests that are involved in all this. It has always been assessment he has made of the need for reforms to resistance from the two established, larger parties that party funding. [900475] has prevented a deal, and that is exactly what happened on this occasion. I do not think that we should beat The Deputy Prime Minister (Mr Nick Clegg): Ihave about the bush. always been clear that any reform is best achieved by As for the hon. Lady’s first point, I urge her not to be consensus. Despite seven meetings, I am disappointed complacent about the trend towards the funnelling of that, as on previous occasions, there has been no agreement increasingly large amounts of money into the political between the three parties on beginning party funding process by non-political parties. Look at what has happened reform. in the United States. Do we really want to go in the direction of super-PACS or very well-funded groups Simon Hughes: The Deputy Prime Minister and trying to influence the political process? I do not think colleagues have managed to get agreement across that that would be healthy for our democracy. government to deal with third party big funding and agreement with the official Opposition to deal with the Leveson issues on regulating the press—it was difficult, Sadiq Khan (Tooting) (Lab): I, too, welcome the right but we got there. Will my right hon. Friend make a hon. Member for Tunbridge Wells (Greg Clark) to his renewed effort to try to get a deal with the Labour and new position. Conservative parties in time for the election to take As the Deputy Prime Minister will know, Sir Christopher some very big money out of party politics so that Kelly’s most recent report recommended a reduction in voters, not big funders, decide the outcome? the cap on political parties’ general election expenditure 583 Oral Answers15 OCTOBER 2013 Oral Answers 584 from £19 million to £16 million, and before the last will mean tenants moving to smaller homes—cannot general election the Prime Minister said that it should work unless there are smaller homes for them to move be £15 million. Sir Christopher’s report also referred to to? What is his estimate of the percentage of tenants for the lobbying Bill, which will reduce what campaigning whom there is no smaller home to go to? groups can spend by more than 70% although they spend a fraction of what is spent by political parties. The Deputy Prime Minister: I totally accept the premise, What does the Deputy Prime Minister think the cap which is that a change from one system to another should be for political parties’ general election expenditure, involves hard cases that need to be—[Interruption.] and what does he think should be the maximum donation That is why we are providing hard cash for hard cases. that an individual can make? We have trebled the discretionary housing payments that are available to local councils. I am not in any way The Deputy Prime Minister: First, I do not think that seeking to ignore the fact that some individual cases it is possible to view one of those figures in isolation. It really do need the flexibility and the money from local is not possible to consider the £19 million or the £15 million authorities to enable their circumstances to be dealt figure without trying to incorporate it in a cross-party with. consensus on political party funding, which has eluded Let me say this to the right hon. and learned Lady. If us so far. As for individual donations to individual there is a principled objection to this change, I do not candidates, our Bill increases the limit from £500 to understand why, in all the years during which Labour £700. was in government, exactly the same provisions existed Secondly, charities and campaign organisations that for millions of people in the private rented sector. are not seeking to influence the outcome of an electoral contest in a constituency can spend as much money as Ms Harman: This is the central issue in the Government’s they like. They can spend millions and millions of pounds, justification for a policy that the Deputy Prime Minister unregulated, if they are not seeking to enter into the has brought forward and voted for. He obviously does democratic process. If they do seek to enter into the not want to admit that for 96% of tenants, there is no democratic process, why are they not asked to fill in smaller home to go to. No wonder councils are saying the same paperwork as political parties? that the discretionary housing fund is completely inadequate to help all the families who cannot move and are falling into arrears. Does he recognise that this is a cruel and Topical Questions unfair policy that he should not have voted for? He should repeal it now. 1. [900483] Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con): If he will make a statement on his departmental The Deputy Prime Minister: Of course I accept that responsibilities. for some households the change from one system to another creates real dilemmas that need to be addressed The Deputy Prime Minister (Mr Nick Clegg): As through the money that we are making available to local Deputy Prime Minister, I support the Prime Minister authorities. The right hon. and learned Lady cites a on a full range of Government policies and initiatives. figure. To be honest, lots of wildly different figures have Within Government, I take special responsibility for the been cited about the policy’s impact. That is why we are Government’s programme of political and constitutional commissioning independent research to understand its reform. impact. I suspect that it varies enormously between one part of the country and another, and one local authority Martin Vickers: When my right hon. Friend visited and another. That is why we are trebling the resources north-east Lincolnshire recently, he must have observed that we making available to local authorities. the tremendous investment that has been made in the offshore renewables sector which is helping to boost the T2. [900484] Mr Dominic Raab (Esher and Walton) (Con): local economy. However, much of north-east Lincolnshire The Deputy Prime Minister has specific responsibility in still in recession. Can my right hon. Friend assure my for implementing the programme for government and constituents that the Government will do all that they likes to take special ownership of the chapter on tax, a can to support the area during the present difficult key aim of which is to help lower and middle-income times? earners. I have a Lib Dem briefing that states: “£50,000” The Deputy Prime Minister: Having visited the area is on numerous occasions, I am acutely aware of the importance of the new green offshore wind industry to “a very large salary: these are not middle income earners.” the long-term economic prospects of my hon. Friend’s It also says: constituents and the region. I know that my right hon. “We are looking at how” Friend the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate they Change is doing a huge amount in trying to secure, for instance, the long-awaited and much discussed investment “could make a further contribution.” from Siemens in the Hull area, which will transform the Why does he want to clobber the middle classes? local economy, and I can certainly assure my hon. Friend that those endeavours will continue. The Deputy Prime Minister: I do not, and as we made clear at the time the £50,000 figure does not represent Ms Harriet Harman (Camberwell and Peckham) (Lab): any policy of my party. However, I will not be shy about Will the Deputy Prime Minister acknowledge that his parading the fact that it is because of Liberal Democrats Government’s justification for the bedroom tax—that it in government that we are giving a huge tax cut to over 585 Oral Answers15 OCTOBER 2013 Oral Answers 586

20 million basic rate taxpayers, a policy that I was The Deputy Prime Minister: For exactly the same warned by the hon. Gentleman’s party leader at the time reason that the hon. Lady and her party maintained of the last general election was not deliverable. It has precisely the same policy in the private rented sector for been delivered because of Liberal Democrats in government. 13 years. That spectacular act of inconsistency may seem normal to a party that is used to crashing the economy and then claiming that nothing was wrong, T3. [900485] Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and but I hope that she will agree that the benefits bill Saddleworth) (Lab): According to the Papworth Trust, generally and the housing benefits bill in particular nine out of 10 disabled people are having to cut back need to be brought under some semblance of control. on food or heating because of the bedroom tax. The We need to take difficult decisions. We need to provide discretionary housing payments are derisory: they give hard cash, as we are, for hard cases. That is why we have £2.09 to disabled people, compared with the £14 that trebled the discretionary housing payment. they are losing through the bedroom tax. How do the Government and the Deputy Prime Minister justify T6. [900488] Annette Brooke (Mid Dorset and North that? Is that the mark of a civilised society? Since it is Poole) (LD): Given the success of the city deals and the not in the coalition agreement, will he call for it to be emergence of city regions, what plans does the Deputy scrapped? Prime Minister have for further decentralisation to include more rural areas? The Deputy Prime Minister: I read in the Sunday papers that the Labour party was going to get even The Deputy Prime Minister: That is one of the reasons tougher on welfare than the coalition, yet it has opposed why I so warmly welcome the appointment of the £83 billion-worth of welfare savings. We have to bring Minister of State, Cabinet Office, my right hon. Friend the housing benefits bill down somehow. I assume that the Member for Tunbridge Wells (Greg Clark) because our rationale for the change is exactly the reason why, in he has demonstrated extraordinary personal commitment government for 13 years, Labour maintained the same to this wider agenda of devolution and decentralisation. rules for households receiving housing benefit in the As my hon. Friend will know, we are examining the private rented sector. case for 20 more city deals, and we will then be seeking to roll out a much more extensive programme of decentralisation on the back of the Heseltine Mr Speaker: I call Harriet Baldwin. Not here. recommendations, which I hope will leave all of our country far more decentralised now than we found it back in Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): Could the 2010. Deputy Prime Minister let us have the Government’s view on having televised party leader debates before the T10. [900492] Yvonne Fovargue (Makerfield) (Lab): In next general election? Will he ensure that the fourth the borough of Wigan over 100 tenants have moved party is allowed to take part in the debate so that he into the private rented sector since April, where rents would be able to speak? [Interruption.] are between £700 and £1,200 higher than council rents. Can the Deputy Prime Minister confirm therefore that, rather than falling, the housing benefit bill is likely to The Deputy Prime Minister: It is the sting in the tail rise as a result of the bedroom tax? that I always love. The hon. Gentleman must rehearse his questions endlessly—but they are good; it was a good one today. As he knows, that is not a subject, The Deputy Prime Minister: I hope the hon. Lady will thankfully perhaps, of Government policy. It is a subject accept that there is an underlying problem. We have lots for discussion between the broadcasters, who will have of people on the social rented sector waiting list. There their own views, and the political parties. He should are 1.8 million households on the waiting list and about speak to his own party leader about his party’s view on 1.5 million bedrooms in the social rented sector are not these things. I think that the innovation of televised being used. We need somehow to make sure that those leader debates was a good one. Millions of people people who do not have homes are better matched with found it a good opportunity to see how the party available homes. At the same time we have many families leaders measured up against each other and I think that living in very overcrowded conditions. Those are the we should repeat them. problems: those are the imbalances of the system that we are trying to straighten out. I accept that that leads to some hard cases. They need to be treated fairly and T5. [900487] Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) compassionately. (Lab/Co-op): I listened carefully to the Deputy Prime Minister’s answers about the bedroom tax. He kept T7. [900489] Andrew George (St Ives) (LD): What is my referring to “some households”. However, does he agree right hon. Friend doing to ensure the UK maximises with his own party that the bedroom tax discriminates the opportunity for green growth and green jobs across against the most vulnerable in our society? Will he join the UK? his party in calling for the tax to be scrapped? The Deputy Prime Minister: My view is that an island The Deputy Prime Minister: My party has not called such as ours has a huge commercial opportunity, for the policy to be scrapped. It has debated— particularly with the capacity for offshore wind that we have as a country. It might sound odd to say that there is a commercial opportunity in the face of such a grave Emily Thornberry (Islington South and Finsbury) threat as climate change, but there is a commercial (Lab): Why not? opportunity if we can show that we have the technologies, 587 Oral Answers15 OCTOBER 2013 Oral Answers 588 the science, the companies and the strategies to adapt to T9. [900491] Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): these new environmental realities. I think that that In his keynote speech to the National House-Building would be a great opportunity to create jobs for many Council on 22 November last year, the Deputy thousands of people throughout the country. Prime Minister highlighted the 5,500 unit housing development to the east of Kettering as a major project that needed infrastructure support, but since then its T11. [900493] Mrs Emma Lewell-Buck (South Shields) (Lab): My right hon. Friend the leader of the Labour £30 million bid to the regional growth fund for a related party has stated strong support for lowering the voting junction improvement has been turned down. Will he age and giving a voice to our 16 and 17-year-olds. Their agree to meet a delegation from Kettering to discuss futures are decided by many of the decisions that are how, across government, heads could be knocked together taken in this House. The Deputy Prime Minister said to ensure that local people get the infrastructure they he supports this position, but three years after taking need to cope with all these extra houses? up his post no action has been taken. When can Britain’s young people expect him to live up to his The Deputy Prime Minister: I can certainly ensure commitments? that officials who run the bidding process in the regional growth fund are able to meet those who put together the application in Kettering. As my hon. Friend knows, this The Deputy Prime Minister: Government Members is, thankfully, not something that politicians decide; it is have always been very open about the fact that there is decided on an objective basis and a panel, chaired by disagreement between the two coalition parties. I strongly Lord Heseltine, filters and assesses the bids before they believe that the voting age should be brought down to come before Ministers. More generally, I know that 16. I do not see why 17-years-olds are not able to vote colleagues in the Department for Communities and when they have so many other roles and responsibilities Local Government would be more than happy to meet in British society. It is not something we have included him and his colleagues from Kettering to look at making in the coalition agreement, but my views on the matter sure that the infrastructure is indeed available to the have not changed. local community.

T8. [900490] Stephen Gilbert (St Austell and Newquay) T14. [900496] Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab): Is (LD): “Drekly” is a Cornish expression that means doing the desperate scarcity of one-bedroom and two- something maybe some time in the future, possibly bedroom properties for rent in Ogmore, coupled with never. Can my right hon. Friend assure me that in terms the growth in the number of abandoned three-bedroom of devolving greater powers to the people of Cornwall, houses and added to the rise in debt arrears of every drekly is not an answer he will ever give from the housing authority, which prevents them from making Dispatch Box? the necessary refurbishments, an intended consequence of his policies on benefits and the bedroom tax? The Deputy Prime Minister: Since I only just heard that term I doubt very much I would use it at the The Deputy Prime Minister: The whole system is not Dispatch Box, and it is absolutely not our intention to working as it should—[Interruption.] The whole system delay further progress on devolving powers and we inherited from the hon. Gentleman’s Government decentralising control over how money is raised and was one where we had 1.8 million people on the housing spent across all parts of the United Kingdom, including waiting list, hundreds of thousands of families living in Cornwall. We are doing that in the steps I described overcrowded accommodation and other people receiving earlier: a first wave of city deals, a second wave of city housing benefit for more bedrooms than they actually deals, and then implementing the recommendations of needed. That is the system we are trying to sort out. the Heseltine review. There are many features to this, which is why we decided that, in exactly the same way as his Government supported the rules in the private rented sector, we would apply the T12. [900494] Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab): A same rules in the social rented sector. number of countries have abolished the second Chambers of their Parliaments, and Ireland has just decided to T13. [900495] Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con): My follow suit. About half of all Labour Back Benchers in right hon. Friend will be aware of the excellent a recent previous Parliament voted for a unicameral Speaker’s parliamentary placement scheme run by the Parliament. Will the Deputy Prime Minister now accept Social Mobility Foundation and supported by many that that is one reasonable option for reform of the across this House. I will shortly be welcoming a new House of Lords? member of staff through that programme. Will he join me in welcoming its success in getting more people The Deputy Prime Minister: Notwithstanding my from a diverse range of backgrounds into politics and frustration that we did not manage to introduce even a advancing the cause of social mobility? smidgeon of democracy into the other place, I am not going to throw the baby out with the bathwater and say The Deputy Prime Minister: I strongly endorse what that therefore we should scrap the place altogether. I my hon. Friend said. The scheme is excellent and it is remain of the view that there are virtues in having a part of a creeping culture change, whereby everyone is tension—a balance—between two Chambers. That is realising, in the private sector, the public sector, Parliament the virtue of bicameral systems all over the democratic and Whitehall, that work experience places and internships world. I just have this old-fashioned view that it is best should, wherever possible, be based on what people done when both Chambers are elected by the people know rather than who they know. That is reflected in they purport to represent. this truly excellent scheme. 589 Oral Answers15 OCTOBER 2013 Oral Answers 590

Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab): What discussions Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab): The introduction of has the Deputy Prime Minister had with the Justice the dreaded bedroom tax has hammered thousands of Secretary about his recent announcement that he is people, mainly disabled, up and down the UK. Recent going to repeal the Human Rights Act as early as next research shows that the Government wildly exaggerated year? the potential savings—why is that?

The Deputy Prime Minister: There will be no repeal The Deputy Prime Minister: I think the hon. Gentleman of the Human Rights Act during the course of this is referring to the study from the university of York that Parliament under this coalition Government. was published recently. The details of that study show that it is based on partial information. We simply do not know yet whether the impact or the purported savings T15. [900497] Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) are as big or small as the university of York study has (Con): The Deputy Prime Minister recently warned the implied, but we need to ensure that they are considered United Nations that it was in danger of becoming a independently and objectively so that we can all agree “relic of a different time” on the basic facts, whatever our disagreements about the policy. and that the Security Council should be reformed. Does he believe that the reform should also include limiting Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con): Given the the veto? Deputy Prime Minister’s welcome recent criticisms of The Guardian newspaper and its potential breaches of The Deputy Prime Minister: The primary focus of the Official Secrets Act and the Terrorism Acts, will he reform of the UN Security Council, which is an encourage the Cabinet Office to take a tougher line than anachronism—it is based on an international pecking hitherto as matters proceed over the month ahead? order that has changed out of all recognition since it was formed—needs to be on the composition of its The Deputy Prime Minister: Myviewisthatasa permanent members, rather than on their respective matter of course any publication of technical details voting rights. That remains the focus of this Government; that are, frankly, not of a great deal of interest to the we seek to champion the case of other nations—Germany, non-technical reader of our newspapers but might be of a member from Africa and one from other hemispheres—to huge interest to people who want to do this country be represented at the top table of the United Nations. harm are not a good thing. Having said that, however, I think that there is an entirely legitimate debate about whether the laws we have in place were properly framed Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) for the power of the technologies available to our agencies (SNP): Is the Deputy Prime Minister in any way uneasy and to those who wish to harm us and about whether about the manner in which large cash donors to some our oversight arrangements for the work of the agencies political parties still find their way into the House of are as strong, transparent and credible as they need Lords—a situation that would disgrace any banana to be. republic? Graham Stringer (Blackley and Broughton) (Lab): The Deputy Prime Minister: I do not think that it is Every right hon. and hon. Member has been elected on wrong by definition to say that someone who is committed a constituency basis; nobody has been elected on a to or has supported a political party should somehow national basis. Would it not revitalise democracy if we be barred for life from showing their support by serving changed the balance of allowed funding in general that party in the House of Lords. In general terms, not elections from a national level to a constituency level only should we reform the House of Lords and make it and got away from these pseudo-presidential elections? not a plaything for party leaders but something for the British people, but we should take big money out of The Deputy Prime Minister: The recommendations of British politics more generally. Sir Christopher Kelly’s committee on party funding reform, particularly with their strict limits on donation caps, would have an analogous effect as they would Simon Wright (Norwich South) (LD): What role does significantly decrease the ability of large individual the Deputy Prime Minister envisage that successful city donations to be siphoned directly to national parties. deals, such as that proposed for Norwich, will play in As I said before, however, the cross-party consensus the development of local growth funds from 2015, necessary to underpin any party funding reform has particularly in relation to the skills agenda? eluded us once again.

The Deputy Prime Minister: I know that the Minister Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD): In the spirit of of State, Cabinet Office, my right hon. Friend the what my right hon. Friend said earlier about devolution, Member for Tunbridge Wells (Greg Clark), is deep in when will we finally hear the Government’s response to discussions on the Norwich city deal this very week. I the recommendations of the Silk commission, which hope that will lead to a successful conclusion soon are of critical importance to the people of Wales? enough. The first wave of city deals—I have seen this for myself in Sheffield—shows that the devolution in The Deputy Prime Minister: I understand the impatience powers over skills from Whitehall to the town hall and for progress on the adoption of the Silk recommendations. the local enterprise partnerships is providing a fantastic As my hon. Friend knows, we have done some work boost to the provision of skills, particularly for young latterly on the implications of devolution of aspects of people who are seeking to get into work. the system of stamp duty. I am a huge supporter of the 591 Oral Answers15 OCTOBER 2013 Oral Answers 592 thinking behind the Silk commission, I am acutely offenders unpunished and free and leaving victims aware that it is supported by all parties in Wales and I vulnerable. What are the Government going to do about hope that we will be able to make progress on it without this? further delay. The Solicitor-General: The hon. Gentleman is right. Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): Has The Government are aiming to increase the number not the Deputy Prime Minister seen the recent research that only of prosecutions, but of successful ones which shows that the High Speed 2 rail line, rather than result in conviction. On 26 September this year the bringing strength and resurrecting the cities of the Director of Public Prosecutions held a meeting with all midlands and the north, will mean that more power will the other stakeholders—the police, the Home Office, be sucked back to London and the south-east? the College of Policing and the Attorney-General’s Office—to look at why the referrals from police to the The Deputy Prime Minister: I find such research CPS had fallen. Six actions were agreed at that time. utterly specious. I wish the Labour party would decide whether it is for or against HS2. It is betraying the north Rehman Chishti: Does the Solicitor-General share my of England and the great cities of the north by being so concerns that for 2012-13 around 30% of defendants equivocal about HS2. In my view that is the most for domestic violence were aged under 24, and more important infrastructure projects for this country’s future than 2,000 were between 14 and 17 years old? What are and it will play a crucial role in healing the long, long the Government doing to tackle domestic violence among divide that has existed between the north and the south young people? of our country. The Solicitor-General: My hon. Friend has a strong Several hon. Members rose— record of campaigning on this issue and he is absolutely right: it is of concern that young people are perpetrating Mr Speaker: I am sorry to disappoint colleagues, who domestic violence. The Government’s action plan for can try to be accommodated elsewhere on other question violence against women and girls includes a programme sessions. We must now move on. to increase understanding and awareness of these issues, and the DPP’s national scrutiny panel last year focused on teenage relationship abuse. The CPS is putting together specific training for prosecutors on issues to take into account when they are prosecuting cases and also to ATTORNEY-GENERAL support the victims.

Peter Aldous: Taking into account the gravity of the The Attorney-General was asked— offence, there is a concern that too many cautions are being issued in domestic violence cases. If this is established to be happening, will the Solicitor-General work with Rape and Domestic Violence Prosecutions the Home Secretary to address it?

1. Andy Sawford (Corby) (Lab/Co-op): What recent The Solicitor-General: My hon. Friend raises an discussions he has had with the Director of Public important point. As he will know, the Secretary of State Prosecutions on increasing the number of prosecutions for Justice has announced a wider review of out of for rape and domestic violence. [900458] court disposals, but at the recent meeting which I mentioned, convened by the Director of Public Prosecutions, it was 5. Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con): agreed that there needs to be a closer analysis of domestic What recent discussions he has had with the Director violence figures and how out-of-court disposals are of Public Prosecutions on the prosecution of cases being dealt with. That is ongoing. involving allegations of domestic violence. [900462] Emily Thornberry (Islington South and Finsbury) 8. Peter Aldous (Waveney) (Con): What recent (Lab): The Solicitor-General has given us a rather tantalising discussions he has had with the Director of Public answer, telling us that in September there was a meeting Prosecutions on the prosecution of cases involving on ensuring that more cases were taken by the police allegations of domestic violence. [900465] and given to the Crown Prosecution Service for charging. We are all concerned that the CPS is not getting enough The Solicitor-General (Oliver Heald): The Attorney- cases in front of it on which to make decisions. The General and I regularly discuss the effective prosecution Solicitor-General tells us that six actions have been of cases of violence against women and girls, including agreed. Would he like to tell us what they are? both domestic violence and rape, with the Director of Public Prosecutions. Discussions also take place between The Solicitor-General: I did not want to trespass on the DPP, the police and the Home Office. In 2012-13 the Mr Speaker’s good will, but I am delighted to set out proportion of such cases resulting in conviction increased the six actions. First, Her Majesty’s inspectorate of to 74.3% for domestic violence and 63.2% for rape. constabulary will carry out a themed inspection of domestic violence, liaising closely with the Home Office Andy Sawford: Under this Government more and and the CPS. Secondly, the evidence that I have just more cases of both rape and domestic violence are mentioned about how out-of-court disposals are dealt being dropped by the police without being referred to with will be examined in more detail to see what is the Crown Prosecution Service for prosecution, leaving happening in this area. Thirdly, the performance of the 593 Oral Answers15 OCTOBER 2013 Oral Answers 594

CPS is being closely examined to see whether there are The Solicitor-General (Oliver Heald): The Crown differences between areas in the way in which cases Prosecution Service takes allegations of sexual abuse are referred. The fourth action entails looking at the and domestic violence very seriously and ensures that independent domestic violence adviser network and prosecutors are well equipped to handle those cases. making sure that it is performing consistently across the There is also the national network of witness care units, country. Fifthly, six areas are being reviewed and cases whose role is to support victims. The House will want to which were not referred to the police are being examined know that the Director of Public Prosecutions will closely to see why. Sixthly, the Crown Prosecution Service publish final guidelines on prosecuting cases of child is going to give further advice to the police about how sexual abuse shortly. to pursue cases without the witnesses giving evidence. Stephen Metcalfe: I thank the Solicitor-General for Mr Speaker: I call Mr Robert Halfon, assuming that his answer. Will he also look at what more can be done he can still remember the original question. to support those who have been the victims of psychological or emotional abuse, because although there is no physical Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): Just about, Mr Speaker. effect, the mental trauma can be quite debilitating? In 2012 there was the tragic death in my constituency The Solicitor-General: My hon. Friend’s contribution of Eystna Blunnie, a victim of domestic violence. The is timely, as we have recently had mental health day. He CPS admitted that there had been a failure to prosecute is right that it is important to support such victims and the murderer for a previous assault. What steps are my witnesses, which is what the witness care units do. In hon. and learned Friend and the Government taking to addition, there is a range of guidance for prosecutors ensure that the CPS properly follows through prosecutions on issues such as the provision of therapy to vulnerable of perpetrators of domestic violence? and intimidated witnesses. With regard to victims who have suffered mental trauma, there is guidance on how The Solicitor-General: Of course, the key is to have to help victims and witnesses with mental health issues, regular meetings and to issue the sort of guidelines that and the CPS also contributed to the Mind toolkit. the Director of Public Prosecutions has done. If my hon. Friend wishes to write to me about the case he Neil Parish: Will my hon. and learned Friend outline mentioned, I will certainly ensure that any review that is what the special measures will be, how they will be still available is undertaken. granted for vulnerable witnesses and how they will help the court process to ensure that the trial is fair for all, Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab): As the hon. Member particularly those witnesses in these very difficult cases? for Harlow (Robert Halfon) pointed out, this is a serious matter, and the consequences are serious. In Thames The Solicitor-General: The special measures available Valley last year there were 9,804 recorded incidents of for vulnerable or intimidated witnesses include: giving crime involving domestic violence, but a further 22,627 evidence from behind a screen, by live television link or incidents were reported to the police, and we know that in private by clearing the court room of the public; such cases sometimes end in a tragic death. I fear that removal of wigs and gowns by judges and lawyers; use the hon. and learned Gentleman’s six actions are a bit of video-recorded evidence-in-chief; examination of the laid back. What is he going to do? witness through an intermediary; and provision of communication aids. Many of us are strong supporters The Solicitor-General: First, the six actions relate to of one special measure, pre-recorded cross-examination, one important aspect: ensuring that referrals come through for which I think there is a measure of support across from the police to the CPS. But let us be clear that over the House. It has not yet been implemented, but it is recent years huge progress has been made, in both the coming soon. proportion of cases that are prosecuted and the conviction rates achieved. The hon. Lady is absolutely right that Ann Coffey (Stockport) (Lab) rose— we need a cross-governmental strategy, which we have in the action plan of the interministerial group on Mr Speaker: The hon. Lady is almost overcome with violence against women and girls, so there is no complacency excitement. I call Ann Coffey. in that regard, but she must recognise that there are achievements as well as areas that need improvement. Ann Coffey: Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. Vulnerable Witnesses Children have particular difficulty in communicating, and registered intermediaries are crucial in enabling them to give the best possible evidence in court, but 3. Stephen Metcalfe (South Basildon and East Thurrock) they are being appointed in a tiny minority of cases. (Con): What steps the Crown Prosecution Service is What more can the Solicitor-General do to make sure taking to ensure that adequate provision is made to that the Crown Prosecution Service appoints better support vulnerable witnesses in sexual abuse or registered intermediaries for children at an early stage? domestic violence cases. [900460] The Solicitor-General: As the hon. Lady will remember, 7. Neil Parish (Tiverton and Honiton) (Con): What that is one of the six issues that is being considered. I steps the Crown Prosecution Service is taking to ensure agree that it is important to ensure that the right support that adequate provision is made to support vulnerable is given in every case. Of course, support would not be witnesses in sexual abuse or domestic violence cases. needed in every case, but where it is, it should be [900464] available. 595 Oral Answers15 OCTOBER 2013 Oral Answers 596

Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab): The The Attorney-General (Mr Dominic Grieve): I regularly Solicitor-General will know that the specialist domestic meet the Director of Public Prosecutions, and this subject courts that were established under the previous Labour has been discussed. The CPS has reduced its staff Government helped to speed up prosecutions and reduce numbers by 1,902, or 21%, during the current spending attrition. Why, then, have his Government gone about review period, while improving overall performance in closing them down? its delivery of a public prosecution service. These reductions will save the public purse a forecast £77.8 million per The Solicitor-General: Although referrals are down, annum by 2015-16. Expenditure on staff exits will the proportion of the caseload that is domestic violence substantially reduce in the next financial year as the or rape cases has held up strongly, so I do not think the CPS will have completed its major programme of achieving hon. Gentleman’s allegation stands up. However, it is significant staff reductions. certainly true that we need to ensure that these cases are dealt with expeditiously. Mr Slaughter: Given that, by his own admission, the Attorney-General is losing a quarter of all prosecutors, Margot James (Stourbridge) (Con): I thank the perhaps it is not surprising that he spent £50 million Attorney-General for the report he commissioned, following getting rid of them, but why has £10 million of that our meeting with the Crown Prosecution Service gone on packages of more than £100,000, including inspectorate, on the disclosure of medical and counselling ones of up to £300,000, when the rump of the service is records of victims of sexual abuse and rape. Will he or starved of resources? the Solicitor-General meet me to discuss the implementation The Attorney-General: The payments in each case of these recommendations and the need for further were those to which the individuals were contractually action in related areas? entitled. I am aware of the recent press coverage of two The Solicitor-General: As my hon. Friend knows, the payments, but it relied on a series of assumptions that Attorney-General and I were very grateful for her have been shown not to be accurate. Moreover, in the intervention in this regard. The report from Her Majesty’s case of one of those two cases, the payments were in inspectorate bears that out, and either one or both of us fact made in 2009 and were part of the redundancy would be happy to meet her to discuss taking this forward. payments approved by the previous Government, which we changed. Paul Goggins (Wythenshawe and Sale East) (Lab): Criminal Sentences May I draw the Solicitor-General’s attention to the experience of one of my constituents who has been 6. Gareth Johnson (Dartford) (Con): On how many identified as a potential witness in a case of serious occasions during the last 12 months his Department sexual abuse going back over many, many years? This has referred a criminal sentence to the Court of Appeal has caused him great distress, and, frankly, he is not for review on the grounds that it was unduly lenient. receiving the support that he desperately needs. Will the [900463] Solicitor-General and the Attorney-General look again The Attorney-General (Mr Dominic Grieve): As my at what more can be done to support vulnerable witnesses hon. Friend will be aware, the power to refer sentences over the many months they have to wait while their case is an exceptional remedy reserved for those cases in comes to trial? which the sentence is so far below the range of sentences it was reasonable to impose that public confidence in The Solicitor-General: If the right hon. Gentleman the criminal justice system risks being damaged. For writes to me I will make sure that the case is given 2012, the most recent period for which statistics on unduly whatever extra support is needed. As regards the point lenient sentence cases have been published, we received he makes, he is absolutely right. As somebody who has 435 requests for sentences to be reviewed, of which prosecuted these cases, I know that having a properly 82 were referred as unduly lenient and heard by the supported witness who feels confident in giving evidence Court of Appeal. For the period ending 30 September is key. 2013, we have received 352 requests for sentences to be reviewed, of which 57 have been referred to the Court of David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con): I am currently Appeal and have been, or are due to be, heard by dealing with a case where a vulnerable witness has been the Court. forced to leave her own home as a result of the abuse she has suffered, and the offender is now walking around Gareth Johnson: In that case, could the Attorney-General and living in that house. Does the Solicitor-General please assure the House that he will give due consideration agree that that is an absolutely disgraceful situation? If to widening the scope to appeal against unduly lenient I send him the full details, will he look into it and find sentences? I am sure he will agree that weak sentences ways in which I can help this constituent? by our courts let down the victim, the judiciary and the whole of society. The Solicitor-General: I would be more than happy to discuss the case with my hon. Friend. Obviously it is The Attorney-General: My hon. Friend will be aware difficult for me to comment, not having seen the papers, that the scheme is currently restricted to a list of serious but I make that offer. offences. It is right to say that we have added to that list in recent years. In August 2012, the offence of trafficking Exit Payouts (CPS) people for exploitation was added, as were racially or religiously aggravated assaults in October 2003 and 4. Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab): If he various offences under the Sexual Offences Act 2003 in will discuss with the Director of Public Prosecutions 2006. It is always possible for cases to be added to the ways of limiting public expenditure on exit payouts at list, but it is important to bear in mind that references the Crown Prosecution Service. [900461] take up court time and there must be a limit to the 597 Oral Answers15 OCTOBER 2013 Oral Answers 598 number of cases that the Court of Appeal can hear. is taking to raise awareness amongst prosecutors of One must also bear in mind that there has to be a degree how to deal with cases of human trafficking; and what of finality and these things have to be balanced out. If assessment he has made of whether current legislation my hon. Friend knows of any cases or types of offences is being used to prosecute such cases effectively. that he thinks might be added, I am always happy to [900467] consider such matters. It is, obviously, ultimately a matter for my right hon. Friend the Lord Chancellor, The Solicitor-General (Oliver Heald): Guidance is but we discuss these matters and will act if we think it issued by the Crown Prosecution Service and it is regularly necessary. updated. There is a training programme for the CPS and the Director of Public Prosecutions will host a Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): I am usually a great round-table event later this year to consider how best to fan of the Attorney-General, but the way in which he strengthen prosecutions. has handled the case of Elena Fanaru is very disappointing. She now lies in a grave in Romania. The man who Caroline Nokes: I thank the Solicitor-General for that knocked her down and killed her, having fled the scene response. This Friday 18 October is anti-slavery day, of the accident, got only one year and four months in which aims to highlight human trafficking and modern-day prison. When are we going to make sure that such slavery. Does my hon. and learned Friend agree that one people really do face justice? of the key problems is that those crimes are very well concealed and seldom brought to the attention of the The Attorney-General: I am not going to comment on authorities and the police, and that wider public awareness, an individual case. I am quite satisfied that, in so far as I as well as the awareness of GPs and teachers, is required. have been able to have any role in this matter, I have acted properly. In so far as it is a matter where the law The Solicitor-General: I absolutely agree with my needs to be changed, that is for this House to decide. hon. Friend. The Government are committed to publishing a draft modern-day slavery Bill later this year. There Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): May I urge the Attorney- have been amendments to the law to enable more General to work with the Lord Chancellor to extend the prosecutions to occur. The round-table event later this period in which an appeal can be made against an year will be important in raising awareness, as she unduly lenient sentence from the current 28 days? Could suggests. he also give a word of encouragement to campaigners such as the excellent Families Fighting for Justice who Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): The Northern Ireland claim it would make a big difference to victims of the Assembly has recently brought in legislation on human most serious offences? trafficking that is perhaps unique in the United Kingdom. Has the Solicitor-General had any discussions with the The Attorney-General: My hon. Friend makes an Northern Ireland Assembly and, if so, what was the important point. Certainly, the question of the time outcome? limit will be looked at by my right hon. Friend the Lord Chancellor. I am certainly open to suggestions, although The Solicitor-General: I have not had such a discussion, it is right to say that if we have a new time limit there but if the hon. Gentleman would like to talk to me will always be the risk that it will also be exceeded in about the issue, I would be happy to do so. some cases. It is important that cases should be reviewed quickly. In some cases the defendant/offender may not Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): Will the have been given a custodial sentence, and to have a long Solicitor-General press the Home Secretary to consider period of delay before a custodial sentence is then this matter in drafting the modern-day slavery Bill? imposed is clearly undesirable. The Solicitor-General: The details of the Bill will be Human Trafficking published in draft, so my hon. Friend will have an opportunity to contribute at that point. I pay tribute to 9. Caroline Nokes (Romsey and Southampton North) the work that he does with the all-party group on (Con): What steps the Director of Public Prosecutions human trafficking. 599 15 OCTOBER 2013 Regulation of the Private Rented 600 Sector Regulation of the Private Rented Sector is very different. Owner-occupation now makes up less than 30% of housing stock across the borough and is Motion for leave to bring in a Bill (Standing Order declining fast. Social housing—housing association and No. 23) council housing—is about 40% of the stock and rising, as the local authority, to its great credit, manages to 12.35 pm undertake some building programmes to ensure that people have a decent roof over their head. However, the Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab): I beg to private rented sector makes up well over 30% of the move, housing in the borough. That leave be given to bring in a Bill to provide for the regulation of letting agents; to protect tenants’ deposits; to require Some who rent in the private sector in London are the enforcement of environmental and energy-efficiency standards very wealthy, can afford to pay any price that is offered in private-sector rented accommodation; to amend the law on and do not particularly care about it. There are also secure tenancies; to provide for fair rent to be applicable to all those on middle incomes—young, professional people rented accommodation; to require landlords not to discriminate who move into London and pay an extraordinarily high against people in receipt of state benefits; to require local authorities proportion of what ought to be a decent wage on to establish a private rented sector office; and for connected private rents. Then there are people on very low incomes purposes. who cannot get anywhere near the housing ladder but I first introduced this Bill earlier this year on 26 February. cannot get anywhere near getting a council property Since then, the debate about the regulation of the either. They are stuck in expensive private rented private rented sector has gathered pace. It is now much accommodation, often paying half their take-home pay more commonplace for all of us to be invited to endless just to keep an inadequate, expensive roof over their seminars on the private rented sector and stories abound head. about the way in which people are treated in the sector. This matter ought to be part of the mainstream political There are also people who are placed in private debate on housing in this country. rented accommodation by the local authority, and they are the ones who suffer the most. They are often in There are essentially three elements to housing in this inadequate, badly maintained accommodation with country: owner-occupation, housing provided by local landlords who know that the tenants are in no position authorities or housing associations, and the private to complain about anything. rented sector. I will take them in turn. Owner-occupation has been the cornerstone of the housing policies of The one thing that unites all those groups is insecurity successive Governments for a long time. However, the about their housing. I guess that most Members are rate of owner-occupation is steadily and steeply in owner-occupiers and do not feel any great insecurity decline, to the extent that it is well below the high point about their housing situation. It is not so for a large of 70%. There is every sign that it will continue to drop number of people in this country. We therefore need over the decades, as mortgages become more expensive effective regulation of all private rented accommodation, and more difficult to secure for people on average so that there are decent environmental standards and incomes or below, despite the Government’s home- not excessive energy bills. We need strict regulation of ownership objectives. what letting agents do, because currently anyone can set The second area is council housing and housing up as a letting agent straight away. At the very least, we association properties. Council housing provides good need Criminal Records Bureau checks, and we need quality, secure accommodation, but it is in desperately anti-discrimination legislation to be enforced on letting short supply, particularly in London and the south-east. agencies—not just when there is discrimination against I am the first to admit that the solution to our housing people on housing benefit, but when there is discrimination problems lies in the much more rapid development of against people of minority ethnic communities, which is much more council housing all over the country. That absolutely disgraceful and is illegal under general anti- would provide a good quality way out of housing discrimination law. desperation for many people. I hope that that policy is We also need the guaranteed return of deposits and increasingly accepted and developed. much longer tenancies. Traditionally, assured shorthold Although I recognise that housing associations were tenancies last for six months in this country. Sometimes founded to bring in good quality housing on a similar they are repeated and sometimes they are not, but they basis to council housing, I am becoming increasingly are almost never repeated if the tenant complains about concerned about their behaviour and conduct. Increasingly, conditions or requires the landlord to make some repairs they act like housing companies, not social landlords, during the first six months. The tenant finds that their and see themselves as being in the property market, tenancy is simply terminated. We therefore also need rather than in the provision of housing for people who tenancies of at least five years, to reduce the level of are in desperate need. That area is in need of tight insecurity. regulation. When the Government tell me that the cost of private The third area is the private rented sector, which has rented accommodation is one of the main drivers of traditionally been very small in this country. It has now this country’s large housing allowance bill, I absolutely started to rise rapidly. Nationally, it makes up 17% of agree with them. However, the way to deal with it is not the housing stock. That is predicted to rise to 22% by by restricting the level of housing benefit paid to tenants 2025. It is an extremely different story in some parts of but by controlling the level of rent that is paid. Other the country. In the borough of Islington, which I am countries seem to manage that well, and I feel deeply happy to represent with my hon. Friend the Member for angry when I meet people in my advice bureau every Islington South and Finsbury (Emily Thornberry), who week who tell me that they are, in effect, being socially is here to indicate her approval of the Bill, the make-up cleansed out of an area they have lived in for a long time 601 Regulation of the Private Rented 15 OCTOBER 2013 602 Sector because the housing benefit is inadequate for the level Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing of rent that is charged. They are being forced to scatter Bill all over London and all over the country. Some colleagues tell me that regulation of the private rented sector and rent levels is not a problem in their [2ND ALLOCATED DAY] constituency, and I understand that. There is a vast Further consideration of Bill, as amended in the Public discrepancy in rent levels across the country, from £300 to Bill Committee £400 a week in London to £100 a week, or in some cases even slightly less, in other parts of the country. However, if the House does not pass strict regulation of the New Clause 9 private rented sector now, starting in London and the south-east, the problem will spread across the country OFFENCE OF FORCED MARRIAGE:SCOTLAND as the sector gets bigger and bigger. ‘(1) A person commits an offence under the law of Scotland if My Bill would bring about better security, such as he or she— there is in Germany, where tenancies last almost a (a) uses violence, threats or any other form of coercion for lifetime. It would bring about better conditions for the purpose of causing another person to enter into a tenants and much more stable communities. In some marriage, and wards in my constituency, population turnover is 30% a (b) believes, or ought reasonably to believe, that the year, almost all occasioned by the insecurity of the conduct may cause the other person to enter into the private rented sector. What does that do to the stability marriage without free and full consent. of a community? Where does it get its community (2) A person commits an offence under the law of Scotland if activists, school governors and movers and shakers he or she— from if there is no security and no investment in that (a) practises any form of deception with the intention of community? causing another person to leave the United Kingdom, Finally, the Bill would bring about rent regulation. and Some people are not keen on that—some landlords do (b) intends the other person to be subjected to conduct not like it, but some recognise that the stability provided outside the United Kingdom that is an offence under by a fair rent formula of the sort we used to have in this subsection (1) or would be an offence under that country would be a useful step forward. My Bill seeks subsection if the victim were in Scotland. to establish local authority run, fair-rent regulation (3) “Marriage” means any religious or civil ceremony of authorities, the first of which would cover the whole of marriage (whether or not legally binding). Greater London. We would start with the principle that (4) It is irrelevant whether the conduct mentioned in rent should bear some resemblance to the cost of a paragraph (a) of subsection (1) is directed at the victim of the property—often it bears none whatsoever—and ensure offence under that subsection or another person. that we gain the security of tenure required to bring (5) A person commits an offence under subsection (1) or (2) about a much better and fairer society. only if, at the time of the coercion or deception— I hope the House will support this Bill today to end (a) the person or the victim or both of them are in the insecurity and injustice, and recognise that some Scotland, local authorities such as Newham and Oxford have (b) neither the person nor the victim is in Scotland but at made enormous steps forward to try and bring about least one of them is habitually resident in Scotland, some degree of regulation and stability in the private or rented sector. The Bill is not a threat to good landlords (c) neither the person nor the victim is in the United who seek to do the right thing and look after their Kingdom but at least one of them is a UK national. tenants; it is a threat to the cowboys, bad landlords, (6) “UK national” means an individual who is— discriminators and those who refuse to repair their (a) a British citizen, a British overseas territories citizen, a properties or return deposits at the end of a tenure. I British National (Overseas) or a British Overseas hope the House will support the Bill. citizen; Question put and agreed to. (b) a person who under the British Nationality Act 1981 is Ordered, a British subject; or That Jeremy Corbyn, Mark Durkan, Sir Bob Russell, (c) a British protected person within the meaning of that Mr Elfyn Llwyd, Caroline Lucas, John Healey, John Act. McDonnell, Katy Clark, Grahame M. Morris, Ms Diane (7) A person guilty of an offence under this section is liable— Abbott, Mr David Lammy and Mr David Ward present (a) on summary conviction, to imprisonment for a term the Bill. not exceeding 12 months or to a fine not exceeding Jeremy Corbyn accordingly presented the Bill. the statutory maximum or both; Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on (b) on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for a 28 February 2014, and to be printed (Bill 114). term not exceeding 2 years or to a fine or both.’.— (Norman Baker.) Brought up, and read the First time. Motion made, and Question proposed, That the clause be read a Second time.—(Norman Baker.)

Mr Speaker: With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: Government amendments 49, 50, 62, 64, 72, and 75 to 77. 603 Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and 15 OCTOBER 2013 Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and 604 Policing Bill Policing Bill 12.47 pm Centre for Social research report published in 2009 estimated that there were between 5,000 and 8,000 The Minister of State, Home Department (Norman reported cases throughout the UK each year. Of course, Baker): I will be brief because, as Members will recall, many cases go unreported. clause 104 introduces a new offence of forced marriage. The new offence is an important part of our efforts to The Opposition therefore support the Government’s stamp out that appalling practice, and will send a clear legislation for Scotland and the rest of the UK, but I message that it will not be tolerated. I am pleased the should tell the Minister that the legislation by itself is Scottish Government has also decided that forced marriage not enough. We need to put in place a system that should be a criminal offence, and new clause 9 introduces allows people to report when they are at risk of forced a similar provision for Scotland. Breach of a forced marriage, that encourages them to report, and that marriage protection order is already a criminal offence offers them the support they need. Currently, that is in Scotland, so there is no need for a similar amendment sadly lacking. For example, much more work needs to to mirror clause 103, which makes that the case in be done in schools, so that teachers are alert to the signs England and Wales. The other amendments in the that a pupil might be being forced into marriage. Young group are consequential on new clause 9. people need to be educated so that, if they or one of their friends are at risk, they know where to seek help. Helen Jones (Warrington North) (Lab): I was not in I therefore ask the Minister to say what the Government the Chamber yesterday, so may I welcome the Minister are doing to raise awareness of forced marriage. Where to his new post and let him know that any conspiracy is the money to fund such a campaign? In 2012, the theories he comes up with about me will probably be forced marriage unit said that many agencies, whether true? those dealing with children or with vulnerable adults, The Opposition accept the need to deal decisively still did not recognise forced marriage as a safeguarding with forced marriage in Scotland, as in England, and we issue. That is totally unacceptable. There is evidence are pleased that the Government are extending to Scotland that police throughout the UK recognise the need to provisions that make forcing someone into a marriage a deal with forced marriage proactively, but other agencies— criminal offence. We therefore support the new clause not just schools, but colleges and health organisations—still and its consequential amendments. It was clear from have a long way to go. I hope Ministers discuss the evidence taken in Committee that there are differing measures needed with the Scottish Government, so that views on the issue, and some who are active in the sector we can develop a common approach throughout these oppose the use of criminal law in that area because they islands. believe it would deter victims from reporting what is We must have training not only for teachers to allow happening to them. That is an understandable view, but them to recognise the signs that their students are at not one I share. Victims of forced marriage are British. risk, but for others. Teachers are important because, They are of many ages, although many are young sometimes, they are the only person outside the family people. British boys and girls, of whatever colour, deserve with whom a victim has contact at first. I remember the the same protection as every other British boy and girl. tragic case of Shafilea Ahmed in my area—she lived in It is important to make the point that forced marriages the constituency of the hon. Member for Warrington are not about religious beliefs—they are not condoned South (David Mowat). She was so desperate that she by any of the major faiths, whether Christianity, Islam drank bleach when she was taken to Pakistan. Later, or Hinduism. Forced marriages are about abuse, often she was missing for a week before anyone from the of children. What we condemn as abuse in any other school raised the fact that she was not there, despite the sector of society cannot be condoned because of the warning signs she had given. Teachers did not intervene, colour of a person’s skin, their ethnic background or and health workers did not follow up or ask the right their parents’ culture. I am therefore glad that new questions. In the end, she was tragically murdered. I tell clause 9 will make coercing someone into a marriage a the Minister that, although the legislation is welcome, criminal offence in all parts of the UK. I hope we will the Opposition want to know what he will do to ensure give young people, their communities and others the there is not another Shafilea. confidence to challenge forced marriage and to stand up and say no, knowing that they are supported by the Social services provision is struggling because of the law throughout the country, and, I would hope, by draconian cuts the Minister’s Government are making others in the community. to council services. Women’s refuges have lost a third of their budget, and refuges and specialist advice services It is fair to say that, in some respects, Scotland has are closing. There is evidence that services that cater for moved ahead of the rest of the UK on the matter women from black and ethnic minority communities because, as the Minister has said, breach of a forced are particularly hard hit. One test of the willingness of marriage protection order is a criminal offence in Scotland, both the Scottish Government and the coalition as it will be in the rest of the UK when the Bill becomes Government to enforce the provisions will be whether law. It is therefore clearly right that new clause 9 extends they provide the services that people need. the criminal offence of coercing someone into a marriage into Scottish law. However, the UK Government and the Scottish Government need to do much more. No Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): Is the hon. Lady’s forced marriage protection orders have been issued in submission to the House that more focus should be on Scotland since its current legislation came into force, certain cultural or ethnic groups rather than having a and yet no one would seriously argue that there were no generic focus? I ask because the examples she gives—other forced marriages last year. In fact, the UK forced marriage hon. Members will give similar ones—come from certain unit gave support in 1,483 cases related to possible cultural areas. Should the financial focus be on those forced marriage. That is a high number, but the National areas to help them? 605 Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and 15 OCTOBER 2013 Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and 606 Policing Bill Policing Bill Helen Jones: The hon. Gentleman needs to differentiate both sides of the House—to encourage volunteering in services that protect women from violence and specialist our communities. To that end, it has long been the case provision for those dealing with forced marriages. They that criminal record checks, where needed, such as in are two parts of the same thing, but the current evidence respect of work with children, are provided free of is that specialised services for black and ethnic minority charge to volunteers. The new clause puts on a clear women—services that they feel more comfortable accessing statutory basis the ability of the Home Secretary to take because the people there understand the cultural into account the cost of providing criminal record background—are being closed at a greater rate than certificates and other services covered by part V of the other refuges. That is a worry. Police Act 1997 when determining the fees charged for My point to the Minister is that the legislation is all those services. very well, but unfortunately, unless he ensures that there are services to allow women and girls to make use of the Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD): The Minister legislation and access the services they need, the Opposition is making important points about ensuring that people will be forced to conclude that the Government will the are able to pay. As I understand it, it is not currently ends but are unwilling to fund the means. We need a possible to get a basic disclosure within England and much more joined-up approach from the Home Office, Wales—it has to go through Scotland. Will he look at the Department for Education, the Department of Health ensuring that, where appropriate, basic applications are and the Department for Communities and Local available and free? Government if the legislation is to protect people in future. We do not oppose but welcome the Government’s 1pm new clauses, but that is the test we will apply to the Government. Damian Green: I am conscious that at various times Question put and agreed to. there have been difficulties with the practicalities of the New clause 9 accordingly read a Second time, and system, and I take on board my hon. Friend’s point. added to the Bill. The other services covered by part V of the Police Act 1997 when determining fees charged for services New Clause 10 also apply to the new update service that was launched earlier this year. This will enable employers to verify whether FEES FOR CRIMINAL RECORD CERTIFICATES ETC existing criminal record certificates for those signed up to the service remain up to date, allowing us to ensure ‘In Part 5 of the Police Act 1997 (criminal record certificates etc), in section 125 (regulations), after subsection (1) there is that the overall costs of the service now provided by the inserted— disclosure and barring service are fully recovered through fee income, and not subsidised by the taxpayer. “(1A) In prescribing the amount of a fee that— (a) is payable in relation to applications under a particular Earlier this year, when the update service was introduced, provision of this Part, but we made interim arrangements under the Finance (No. 2) (b) is not payable in relation to applications made by Act 1987 to provide the legal gateway for this measure volunteers, to apply. However, the overall arrangement was complex and not entirely transparent. For that reason, we believe the Secretary of State may take into account not only the costs the new clause will benefit volunteers and the people associated with applications in relation to which the fee is payable but also the costs associated with applications under that and communities they support. provision made by volunteers.”’.—(Damian Green.) New clause 28 contains substantive provisions to Brought up, and read the First time. replace clause 147, which, as we made clear, was a placeholder clause. The new clause provides the Lord The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice (Damian Chancellor with a general power to set fees at a level Green): I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second that exceeds the cost of the related services. The services time. are those provided by the courts in England and Wales, including the Court of Protection, the tribunals for Mr Speaker: With this it will be convenient to discuss which the Lord Chancellor is responsible and the Office the following: of the Public Guardian. The primary focus of our Government new clause 28—Court and tribunal fees. proposals for using this power will be the courts of Amendment 184, page 115, line 19, leave out clause 143. England and Wales. The courts play a vital role in our Amendment 95, in clause 143, page 115, line 26, leave society, providing access to justice so that the public can out ‘the person was innocent of the offence’ and insert— assert their legal rights. Ensuring that they are properly ‘no reasonable court properly directed as to the law, could convict resourced is essential to maintaining access to justice. on the evidence now to be considered.’. This must be delivered when public spending is required Government amendments 137, 138, 66, 139, 74 and 83. to fall—deficit reduction is one of the Government’s key priorities—and the courts and those who use them Damian Green: I will first deal with the Government’s must make a contribution. proposals, although I am aware that hon. Members will As new clause 28 makes clear, the purpose of enhanced wish to speak to other amendments. I will deal with fees is to finance an efficient and effective court system. those at the end of the debate on the group. This change to the way that fees are set will help to The Government proposals in the group are on the ensure that courts are properly resourced to deliver setting of fees for two distinct public services. New modern, efficient services so that access to justice is clause 10 concerns fees charged by the Disclosure and protected. The proposed legislation provides a general Barring Service. It is Government policy—I imagine power; specific fees would be increased through secondary and hope that this is supported by hon. Members on legislation. When a specific fee or fees are set at an enhanced 607 Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and 15 OCTOBER 2013 Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and 608 Policing Bill Policing Bill [Damian Green] with bated breath to see whether the hon. Gentleman will spring from his seat to seek to catch my eye, but his level for the first time, the order will be subject to the behaviour has been orderly and respectful, as always. affirmative resolution procedure—there will be full debate in both Houses. Any subsequent changes to those fees Jack Dromey (Birmingham, Erdington) (Lab): I rise will be subject to the negative procedure. to speak on two matters; first, briefly, on enhanced fees. We are not opposed to the principle of what is being We will shortly be consulting on proposals to achieve proposed, but it is clear from what the Minister has said full cost recovery, less remissions, in the civil and family that this is about more than full cost recovery, the kind courts. However, even on this basis the running of the for which we argued yesterday in respect of firearms. court system in England and Wales costs more than This is a revenue-raising measure. We will therefore £1 billion a year, so we need to go further in reducing scrutinise carefully any orders brought forward under the burden on taxpayers. We believe it is fair and the proposed legislation to ensure that any charges are proportionate that those who use the courts and can reasonable, and that the interests of the administration afford to do so should make a greater contribution to of justice are best served. their overall funding. That is why we are bringing forward this provision to allow fees to be set above cost Amendment 95 relates to miscarriages of justice. I in some circumstances. am proud to serve the city of Birmingham. In 1974, the city saw the most appalling terrorist outrage when, as a Let me assure the House that we will not be using the consequence of bombings by the Provisional IRA, power to set excessively high fees. In setting fees, the 21 innocent citizens died. Six innocent people were then Lord Chancellor must have regard to the principle that convicted of that terrorist outrage. I should make it access to the courts must not be denied. The new clause clear that I have been a lifelong opponent of violence by requires him to have regard to the overall financial the Provisional IRA. My mother and father were both position of the courts and tribunals, and the international Irish. I was also on the executive of the National competitiveness of the legal services market. We are not Council for Civil Liberties for many years, and served bringing forward specific plans for charging enhanced as its chairman. In that period, we campaigned against fees at this stage. We want to take some time to ensure terrorist violence and for justice at a time when it was that we get the measures right. As I said, we will consult sometimes difficult to stick one’s head up and say that widely on the proposals and look carefully at how any what had happened to the Birmingham Six and the proposed court fees might compare with the overall Guildford Four was unacceptable. Sixteen years after cost of litigation, the value of the issues at stake and the the Birmingham Six were sent to prison, they were fees charged by our international competitors. Following released and found to have been wrongly convicted. the consultation there will, as I have indicated, be full On behalf of the Opposition, I warmly welcome the parliamentary scrutiny of any enhanced fees that we fact that my hon. Friends the Members for Foyle (Mark decide to introduce. Durkan) and for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn) are Amendments 184 and 95 relate to the tests for eligibility bringing this important issue to the Floor of the House. for compensation following a miscarriage of justice. I We are rightly proud of our judicial system, but we propose that the House hears from the hon. Members know that it is not perfect. The Birmingham Six and the who tabled them before I respond. Guildford Four are but two examples of miscarriages of justice that highlight in extremis the consequences of Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab): I, with my getting it wrong; taking away years of a person’s life and hon. Friend the Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan), damaging their reputation, their friends, family and tabled amendment 95. Does the Minister not recognise colleagues. It is therefore entirely right that when such a that he is proposing a dangerous step forward that miscarriage of justice occurs, the innocent people who would actually reduce the chances of overturning a have suffered are entitled to compensation. miscarriage of justice case? Would the Guildford Four At the heart of our legal system lies the principle of or the Birmingham Six have been declared innocent innocent until proved guilty, and rightly so. However, under his proposals? Government changes to redefine the compensation test, limiting it to “if and only if the new or newly discovered fact shows beyond Damian Green: As I said, I think it would be sensible, reasonable doubt that the person was innocent of the offence” for the purposes of the debate and the convenience of seem to fly in the face of this age-old principle. Under the House, if the hon. Gentleman makes his case and I the Government’s new narrowed compensation tests, then respond to it at the end of the debate. I think that none of the Birmingham Six or Guildford Four would is better than pre-responding to the speech I suspect he have been entitled to payments. Billy Power, one of the will make. [Interruption.] I am happy to make the same six men wrongly convicted in the 1970s for the Birmingham speech twice, but you, Mr Speaker, might feel that that pub bombings, has warned that the changes would was out of order. If the hon. Gentleman wants a taste mean that of what I am going to say, I do not agree with him, but I will wait to hear his fuller analysis to see if he can “the standard presumption of innocence would be abolished”. convince me in the course of the debate. And he is not alone. A report from the Westminster joint human rights commission said: Mr Speaker: Order. I note the spirit in which the “In our view, requiring proof of innocence beyond reasonable doubt as a condition of obtaining compensation for wrongful Minister of State made his remarks, but the hon. Member conviction is incompatible with the presumption of innocence, for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn) has said nothing which is protected by both the common law and Article 6(2) disorderly. He might not have said as much as he has to ECHR. We recommend that clause 143 be deleted from the Bill say or as the Minister would like to hear, and we wait because it is on its face incompatible with the Convention.” 609 Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and 15 OCTOBER 2013 Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and 610 Policing Bill Policing Bill Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) we make our fair share. That is not the route chosen, (LD): As the hon. Gentleman will hear if I have a chance however, although it is quite tempting, given how large to say a word, I am very supportive of what he is arguing the legal fees are in many of these cases. It is not just for and of the amendment that his hon. Friends have Russian oligarchs, of course; it is anybody with a very tabled. With respect, though, I would like to correct big transaction. It seems right that they should contribute something that he said. The opinion that he just quoted to the costs of our fantastic court system. was that of the Joint Committee on Human Rights—not We need to ensure, however, that people not in a the Westminster convention, or whatever he called it—which position to pay are not hit. It should still be possible for is making exactly the argument that he is putting to the people without money to access the courts, and in that, House. the fees system could help, because by taking more money from those who have lots of it, we could subsidise Jack Dromey: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman those who do not. I note that there is broad support for for his intervention; he is of course right. the idea that any money made should be reinvested in We support a rigorous and fair justice system, but it improving our court system and ensuring that it works must ensure that where a serious miscarriage of justice well. Broadly, therefore, I am pleased to see the new has happened, innocent people receive fair compensation clause. for all that they have suffered, which, in the more extreme cases, can involve years of their lives. If a 1.15 pm miscarriage of justice has taken place, it is the justice system’s mistake, and it should be its job to put it right, Clause 143 has been discussed passionately by the shadow not to make it harder for innocent people to do so. Minister and the hon. Member for Islington North If—God forbid!—we ever saw a repeat of what happened (Jeremy Corbyn). I share their huge concern about with the Birmingham bombings and the subsequent effectively requiring somebody to demonstrate their convictions, it would be absolutely unthinkable that innocence, which in very many cases would be extremely those people would not be entitled to compensation. hard to prove to the level required. It is not hard to think of cases where it would have been problematic; I very much hope that the Minister will respond the shadow Minister described some of them, and I will constructively to the amendment and our representations. not detain the House with a long list, but people have We intend to support the amendment in the other place, written to me with examples. where we believe that further detailed scrutiny should take place, because the Government have got it wrong Mark Hunter (Cheadle) (LD): Go on! and we must put that wrong right. Dr Huppert: It is nice to be encouraged by the Whips Dr Huppert: It is a pleasure to speak in this debate to speak at greater length, but I am sure we have enough and to follow the opening comments. to debate and I do not want to take time from the I thoroughly support new clause 10, because it is important debates coming up. right that we recognise volunteers. Too often, people On the concerns about clause 143, the hon. Member have had to pay far too much to go through the processes for Islington North has, of course, tabled his amendment, necessary to volunteer, as I know from my own voluntary but the Joint Committee on Human Rights has also work, although that was more of a problem when tabled an amendment that would get rid of the clause people needed separate certificates for everything they completely. I am not a lawyer, but my assessment is that did. I am glad that we have made some progress at least. the JCHR approach is probably a cleaner one, but both There is an issue, however, about the availability of amendments aim to achieve exactly the same thing. I the right level of disclosure for criminal record certificates. agree with the shadow Minister that we should flag this I thought I knew this area reasonably well, but I did not up as a big issue, but leave it to the other place to find realise until recently that it was not possible to get a the right answer. By then, I hope that the Government basic certificate—there are three levels: basic, standard will have reflected on it and accepted the principle that and enhanced—listing unspent convictions in England it is incredibly hard for anybody absolutely to prove and Wales; the only body that does it is Disclosure their innocence. That is a really tough threshold. I hope Scotland. While getting the pricing correct, therefore, that the Minister will reflect on that and that we can we must also ensure availability. It seems perverse that strike a better balance in the other place. only under Scots law can somebody get what most employers ought to have access to. Most employers do Jeremy Corbyn: I will be brief; because of the odd not realise that they should have the basic, rather than timetable we have for the Bill, there is not much time to standard or enhanced certificate. I hope that Ministers debate any of it. My remarks are concerned solely with will consider that point and ensure that while providing amendment 95, which stands in my name and that of the right costings, we also get that right, and that the my hon. Friend the Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan), Government implement the relevant provisions in the and for which, as my hon. Friend the Member for Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974. Birmingham, Erdington (Jack Dromey) explained, there On new clause 28, the Minister made a strong case for is strong support. having some fees. I think we would all agree that if a Clause 143 will fundamentally overturn the huge Russian oligarch makes great use of our courts, they changes made after the release of the Birmingham Six should make some contribution. None of us would and the Guildford Four. For many years, along with suggest that their having to pay £1,000 or so would Chris Mullin and many others, I was one of those who, inhibit their ability to get justice. Perhaps the cost of from this position in the House, raised questions about using the courts should be a fraction of the fees going to the Birmingham Six and the Guildford Four, and I the lawyers; that might be a safe way of ensuring that could paper the walls of my house with the letters of 611 Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and 15 OCTOBER 2013 Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and 612 Policing Bill Policing Bill [Jeremy Corbyn] Justice can go wrong. The media can get it wrong. There can be a campaign of vilification that gets it abuse we received for taking up their cases. None of us wrong. We should not be too holier than thou in this who took up those miscarriages of justice was ever in country as we already have a considerable number of favour of the bombing and killing of civilians in any people held indefinitely under immigration law, and we circumstances; we were, however, in favour of justice. have anti-terror laws that I believe are highly questionable The first person arrested under the Prevention of in many ways when it comes to justice. I hope that the Terrorism (Temporary Provisions) Act 1974 was Paul Minister will explain in his reply exactly how a serious Hill, one of the Guildford Four, who had been a constituent campaign on a miscarriage of justice case would be of my constituency before I was elected, but was in dealt with in the future and how many more people prison when I was elected. Meeting him and the others could indeed be locked up for a long period for offences in prison, I was struck by the sheer hopelessness of that they did not commit and could not have committed. being locked up for an offence they did not commit, If amendment 95 is not accepted—I support the when every newspaper and commentator in the country suggestion of my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, said they were guilty and when their family members Erdington that the whole of clause 143 be deleted—I were abused in the street and vilified because they had a hope that the House of Lords will look at the provisions son, nephew or cousin in prison for an offence they did in forensic detail. Many of those who did such incredible not commit. It made that campaign very difficult, but work, including Baroness Helena Kennedy, in representing some very brave people stood up, and eventually those these causes and cases over many years, sit in the other happy days when they were finally released brought place and I hope they will ensure that this legislation is about a fundamental change in the whole narrative of fundamentally changed so that we recognise that mistakes justice in this country. can happen, that terrible injustices can take place and that unless we provide the opportunity and ability to Dr Huppert: I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on remedy them, they will happen again and again and his work on this issue over many years; it is a great again. That is very dangerous in any democratic society. tribute to him that he took it seriously. Does he agree that a fundamental principle underlies this point, which Simon Hughes: I apologise to you, Mr Speaker, to the is that no matter what somebody has been accused of, Minister and to colleagues because I had to slip out however heinous it might be, they are still entitled to briefly at the beginning of this debate, albeit for what I due process and due legal protections? That is an essential hope are appropriate reasons. I had to meet a press principle from which we should not vary, whether a deadline to pay tribute to one of our party members—not person be accused of terrorist activities, sex crimes or a parliamentarian, but a man called Stan Hardy who anything else. Due process is important, because errors had been a great campaigner on these sorts of issues. are made. He died last Thursday at the ripe old age of 93. Not just Liberal Democrats or liberals but Labour and Conservative colleagues in London and beyond recognised Stan as a Jeremy Corbyn: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely doughty campaigner for civil liberties as well as for the correct. However heinous the crime, however vile the rights of the under-privileged. accusation against an individual, unless they are treated It is always a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for as innocent until proven guilty, we undermine everything Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn) on these sorts of we believe in as a democratic society. issues, and I join my hon. Friend the Member for The big change that came after the release of the Cambridge (Dr Huppert) in paying tribute to his doughty Birmingham Six and the Guildford Four—and Judith campaigning throughout all the time he and I have been Ward for that matter—was the Criminal Cases Review together in the place—now more than 30 years in both Commission, which immediately started looking at our cases. The hon. Gentleman’s amendment, supported 600 miscarriage of justice cases that had not received by his hon. Friends, is designed to deal with a wrong in the sort of publicity that we had managed to engender this Bill that I hope we can remedy. in the three cases I just mentioned. There is a difference between amendment 95, tabled by the hon. Member for Islington North, and Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC): I wish to refer to one amendment 184, tabled by the hon. Member for Aberavon of those cases. The Cardiff Three, who were accused of (Dr Francis) and me. We argue for our amendment in a non-terrorism crime, suffered the same injustice and our own right, but also on behalf of the Joint Committee vilification, but eventually got some sort of justice. on Human Rights. Amendment 95 would amend clause 143, taking out from line 26 the words Jeremy Corbyn: Absolutely. I recall that campaign “the person was innocent of the offence” very well. Although I was not centrally involved in it, I and inserting the words certainly supported it. “no reasonable court properly directed as to the law, could The question really goes back to the Minister. I convict on the evidence now to be considered.” intervened on him during his opening remarks to give The Joint Committee’s collective view was that we would him a chance—a double chance; not double jeopardy, do better to remove clause 143 as a whole—exactly the but a double chance—to provide us with good reasons issue for which the hon. Member for Birmingham, why he is introducing a provision that we, along with Erdington (Jack Dromey) argued. I have been here long Liberty and many others, believe will fundamentally enough to remember and to have supported numerous undermine much of what has been achieved through campaigns to deal with miscarriages of justice, many of the Criminal Cases Review Commission and by the them very unpopular for the reasons we have all identified. ability to overturn miscarriages of justice. Having looked at the issue again, I honestly believe that 613 Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and 15 OCTOBER 2013 Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and 614 Policing Bill Policing Bill the removal of the clause would be the better way to meet that criterion at their proper and due initial trial, deal with the problem. There are technical problems so why should anybody have to do that to receive with amendment 95, so I strongly commend to the compensation after a conviction has been overturned? Minister the amendment to remove clause 143. Compensation is not the only issue here because it is Finally, I shall not press the Joint Committee’s not the monetary value that motivates the fundamental amendment to a vote, but we feel strongly about this objections to this proposal. issue as a Committee. I am sure the Minister knows that Before I became a Member in 2005, I worked on the we will listen respectfully to what he says, but I hope he cases of the Guildford Four and the Maguire Seven can be helpful and confirm that the principle of the when they still needed and wanted a full and proper Government’s proposal—that the provision should apply proclamation of their innocence, not least because many “if and only if the new or newly discovered fact shows beyond sections of the media and others were retelling the slur reasonable doubt that the person was innocent”— that these people had somehow secured just a technical will be changed because that is not the test that should acquittal. Their conviction was quashed, but the insinuation be applied to deal with miscarriages of justice. remained that they were not really innocent. That problem arose from issues surrounding compensation and other factors. Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): I, too, rise to speak to amendment 95, to which my name is attached, along I recall being asked by Gerry Conlon, a friend of with that of the hon. Member for Islington North mine and one of the Guildford Four, if I could get a (Jeremy Corbyn). direct and clear statement of apology and a proclamation of the innocence not just of himself but of his late As the right hon. Member for Bermondsey and Old father, Giuseppe Conlon. I was also asked the same by Southwark (Simon Hughes)and others have said, the Sarah Conlon, Gerry’s mother and Giuseppe’s widow. history of serious cases of miscarriages of justice should It was plain that Gerry Conlon wanted that clear bear very heavily indeed on all Members. I include in proclamation of their innocence for his mother, that his that the cases that were fought, promoted and championed mother wanted it for Gerry, and, of course, that they against very difficult headwinds here in Parliament by both wanted it for Giuseppe. Members of all parties. I recall Conservative Members like the late John Biggs-Davison and others championing 1.30 pm those cases alongside Labour and Liberal MPs—but It is hugely important for people to be able to engage little thanks did they get for it from sections of the in the proper legal process in order to have their innocence media and others. properly affirmed. They should not have to engage in all My own predecessors and party colleagues in Parliament sorts of ulterior processes to secure, for instance, declarations fought on those issues at that time. I remember working in the House of Commons or in the precincts of Parliament, in John Hume’s office writing all sorts of letters to the which is what happened at the time to which I have Home Office. Of course, we were told that new facts referred. We must recognise that miscarriages of justice and new evidence did not qualify as new facts and new have had a fundamental impact not just on the people evidence. Perhaps that issue still applies to clause 143. whose lives have been marred and blighted by years of Even if amendment 95 were accepted, the question of jail and the ignominy that they and their families have what counts as a suffered, but on the wider community—and not just in “new or newly discovered fact” the context of British-Irish relations and all those historic difficulties. still arises, although I hope that the wording of the amendment, which would provide that It is mean-minded of the Government to use the Bill to try to qualify the definition of whether people have “no reasonable court properly directed as to the law, could been victims of miscarriages of justice, and to impose convict on the evidence now to be considered”, an undue burden on them to prove their innocence would help. There were historical arguments about whether “beyond reasonable doubt”. Those words were chosen new evidence was indeed a new fact or a material very deliberately. How can any of us prove our innocence consideration, and I would not want to legislate to of anything beyond reasonable doubt? Many of us produce more circular arguments or obfuscations like might be accused of saying things, insinuating things, that for the future. meaning things, or doing things relating to our expenses Clause 143 is pernicious. It seeks completely to reload or all sorts of other things, but it would be enormously the basic, long-standing presumption of innocence until difficult for us then to prove beyond reasonable doubt proven guilty. It basically provides qualification of the that we had not done those things, particularly if we notion of a miscarriage of justice, suggesting that when had been subject to a lot of media reportage, profiling someone has suffered what most people would call a and distorted coverage. It is beyond me to imagine why miscarriage of justice and when their conviction has, on the Government chose to use such wording. subsequent judicial appraisal of relevant evidence, been In amendment 95, my hon. Friend the Member for overturned, they should still not be able to proclaim Islington North and I seek to modify the damage done their innocence. There is an insinuation that if they were by clause 143, proposing that the words previously convicted, they are innocent and entitled to “the person was innocent of the offence” compensation as innocent only where they can prove after the words that they are innocent “beyond reasonable doubt”. “if and only if the new or newly discovered fact shows beyond For the people affected, many of their convictions reasonable doubt that” will have taken place many years previously and they should be replaced by the words will be in no position to marshal all the evidence that “no reasonable court properly directed as to the law, could could necessarily prove their innocence beyond what convict on the evidence now to be considered”. someone would call a reasonable doubt. Nobody has to I think that that is an important and measured qualification. 615 Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and 15 OCTOBER 2013 Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and 616 Policing Bill Policing Bill I also agree with what was said by the right hon. beyond reasonable doubt that he or she was guilty of Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark on behalf the offence. Clause 143, however, shifts the burden of of the Joint Committee. In many respects, clause 143 as proof to the individual, and compels that individual to a whole is the problem. I certainly am not minded to prove that he or she is innocent of the offence. A become involved in a contest relating to whether the miscarriage of justice would henceforth be proved to House should divide on whether to keep the whole have taken place only if newly discovered facts showed clause or on whether to amend it in the way suggested beyond reasonable doubt that that person was innocent. by amendment 95. On the basis of what I have heard As Justice has pointed out, since 2006 section 133 of from Liberal Democrat Members, as well as the important the Criminal Justice Act 1988 has provided the only statements that we have heard from the Opposition avenue for individuals to obtain financial redress after Front Bench, I will say that—although my party has no miscarriages of justice have occurred. It is chilling to Members in the House of Lords, and will have none think that, had the proposed change in the law been in until it has become a reformed and democratic Chamber—if place at the time, none of the Birmingham Six, the there are other worthy heads there that are able to Guildford Four, the Maguire Seven or the Cardiff Three—I concentrate on this clause in its fullest and important have some interest in that case, and indeed referred to it sense, I shall give them every encouragement to do so. earlier—would have satisfied the innocence test. We cannot treat this issue lightly. The Government Those infamous cases, of course, paved the way for may say, “It is all about the compensation culture: it is the establishment of the Criminal Cases Review simply about cutting costs.” They may say that they do Commission. The individuals involved won compensation not want compensation to be automatically provided in because it was proved that the evidence that had been cases with which people might not be comfortable because brought against them was flawed, and that a jury could they might find the recipient unattractive, and because not have found them guilty had the case been retried. As it might relate to a crime about which there was a great was made clear by the hon. Member for Foyle, the justice deal of deep and understandable public feeling. However, system of England and Wales is unlike the Scottish system none of those considerations should allow us to indulge in that a case cannot be found to be “not proven”, a clause that would fundamentally tilt the presumption although there have been arguments about that position. of innocence—that would tilt the balance away from In the notorious cases that I have just listed, the rule someone’s guilt having to be proved beyond reasonable of thumb for the awarding of compensation was always doubt. People who have been convicted and deemed that the individuals would receive the amount that they guilty may be able to challenge that decision subsequently, would have earned had they been working during the but, even if they are released, they may in a sense be time when they were wrongfully imprisoned. The purpose unable to escape from the original conviction. of that was to ensure that they would not be impoverished Inherent in the Government’s proposal is the notion when they were released. It would be wicked indeed to that the fact that someone is not guilty does not necessarily deny individuals that compensation when the justice mean that that person is innocent, which is a very system has gone wrong. dangerous wedge to start inserting in public assumptions Under the current law, it is already exceptionally and perceptions. However, it is what we as legislators difficult to persuade the criminal Court of Appeal to are being asked to do, and the hon. Member for Islington review new evidence. For cases to qualify, the Criminal North and I tabled amendment 95 so that we could Cases Review Commission is required to apply section 13(1) register our view properly today. We hope that it will be of the Criminal Appeal Act 1995, which provides that registered further, in terms such as those that we have individuals must satisfy a “real possibility test”. Arguably, already heard from the Opposition Front Bench and, both the Criminal Cases Review Court and the Court of indeed, from some on the Government Benches. Appeal adopt an excessively strict interpretation of this I hope that the Minister is sensitive to some of the test. They restrict reviews to new evidence that was not issues that have been raised—not just in relation to available at the time of the trial or appeal, which means cases that have already happened, but in relation to in practice that evidence that was available at the time of those that may happen in the future—and to the deep the trial or appeal cannot be considered, even in cases in concern that is felt about the possibility that the “tilting” which it was suppressed by the police. Given how difficult is part of some other ulterior agenda. This is certainly it is to get cases referred to the Court of Appeal under not something that we can allow to pass lightly, and I both the “real possibility test” and the need for fresh shall listen very carefully to what the Minister says. evidence, it is harsh indeed that the Government are attempting further to restrict people’s ability to gain Hywel Williams: I will support amendment 184, or, compensation. Innocence is far too high a test and failing that, amendment 95. would be virtually impossible to prove after many years, Clause 143 in its present form marks a significant and which is when such cases are usually heard. hugely detrimental shift in the law which would make it If this matter is not pressed to a successful Division far more difficult for individuals to gain compensation this afternoon, I sincerely hope that Members in the for wrongful conviction and imprisonment. Non- other place will apply the most stringent attention to governmental organisations concerned with human rights, the clause. My noble Friend Lord Wigley will certainly including the Committee on the Administration of Justice, do so. as well as highly respected organisations such as Justice and Liberty, have expressed major anxieties about the Emily Thornberry (Islington South and Finsbury) clause. As the hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) (Lab): I am grateful to be called, Mr Speaker. Thank explained very eloquently, an individual who applies for you for letting me speak in the debate. I appreciate that compensation for a miscarriage of justice must currently my role as a shadow law Minister means that it is an demonstrate that a court could not have established indulgence to allow me to speak. I appreciate it. 617 Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and 15 OCTOBER 2013 Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and 618 Policing Bill Policing Bill I have been in the House for eight years and I thought justice system. We have a fair justice system and a free that I was unshockable, but the way in which the society where it is for the state to prove guilt, not for the Government are seeking to amend section 133 of the individual to prove innocence. Criminal Justice Act 1988 to redefine a miscarriage of The reason for that is obvious. Proving a negative is justice is truly shocking. They wish to change it so that, very difficult and the burden of proof it would place on if and only if newly discovered facts show beyond the individual is extremely onerous. It is for the state reasonable doubt that the person is innocent, there has with all its resources to make the case of a person’s been a miscarriage of justice. Nothing less than that will guilt. The presumption of innocence applies before an do. Only in those circumstances can someone be given acquittal. As Lord Phillips said in the Adams case, any compensation. test that requires innocence I am sure that the Minister will have noted, as anyone “will deprive some defendants who are in fact innocent and who else watching the debate will have done, that no one has succeed in having their convictions quashed on the grounds of yet spoken in favour of clause 143, not even the Minister fresh evidence from obtaining compensation. It will exclude from himself yet. If the matter is not dealt with this afternoon, entitlement to compensation those who no longer seem likely to I hope that there will be the opportunity to deal with it be guilty, but whose innocence is not established beyond reasonable doubt. This is a heavy price to pay for ensuring that no guilty in another place. We need to marshal our forces, because person is ever the recipient of compensation”. the essence of our liberal society is threatened. The Government’s arguments for introducing an innocence test—there are many arguments; I want to 1.45 pm concentrate on the Government’s justification—are, first, It is unfair and unreasonable to demand that, after that it is needed for the sake of clarity; and, secondly, years of being wrongfully imprisoned, an acquitted that it will save money. Neither of those arguments is person should produce some evidential rabbit out of a remotely convincing. Let me turn to the first, about hat that proves beyond doubt their innocence. They clarity. should be able to seek redress for the years of their lives The law at the moment is perfectly clear. Three recent that have been wasted and the years in which they have authoritative judgments have rejected the innocence test been the victim of abuse of state power. It is wrong for as an affront to the presumption of innocence. The them to be expected to come out of prison after 16 Supreme Court did so in the case of Adams in 2011, in years, turn into some sort of Inspector Clouseau and which Lady Hale said: find some nugget that will prove beyond doubt that they are innocent. In most cases, that will be a technical “a person is only guilty if the state can prove his guilt beyond impossibility, given the amount of time that will have reasonable doubt...He does not have to prove his innocence at his elapsed since their imprisonment. That means that it trial and it seems wrong in principle that he should be required to will often be the most deserving and the longest suffering prove his innocence now.” who are denied compensation. The point has already That was reiterated in the High Court in the case of Ali been made that the Birmingham Six would not have earlier this year. There was an attempt to widen the been able to get justice and compensation under the test definition, but that attempt was well and truly quashed that the Government are proposing. by the High Court. This summer, moreover, the European This proposed change is wrong and we need to ensure, Court of Human Rights, in the case of Allen v. the UK, either in this place or in the other place, that it does not made it perfectly clear that any legislation that calls into pass into law. There seems to be general agreement on question the innocence of an acquitted person would be both sides of the House among those who are against a breach of article 6(2) of the European convention on the change that another place may be the best place to human rights on the presumption of innocence. deal with it. We wish Members in another place the best Therefore, the law is clear. That law has been reiterated of luck. by our own Joint Committee on Human Rights, which has been able to assert that Damian Green: This has been a serious debate, appropriately, because these are serious issues. Having “it is now clear beyond doubt” listened carefully to the views of Members on both that the proposed new test in clause 143 is incompatible sides of the House, I believe that there are some genuine with the right to be presumed innocent in article 6(2). misunderstandings about what is proposed and what its Therefore, rather than clarifying the law, it seems that effect will be. I will seek to deal with those as briefly as I the Government are having a pitched battle with the can. It is a complex issue. settled, established law. As we have heard, amendment 95 seeks to maintain The second argument is about saving money. The the current definition of a “miscarriage of justice” Bill’s own impact assessment reveals the expected savings derived from case law, which is therefore subject to to be negligible. According to that MOJ assessment—the ongoing litigation. Amendment 184 goes further and Minister looks puzzled; it is on page 4—the effect of the would prevent us from creating a statutory definition of clause will be to reduce by two per annum the number a “miscarriage of justice” at all, leaving the definition of judicial reviews of Secretary of State decisions, which subject to the shifting view of the courts. Over the years, it estimates will save around £100,000 per annum. Therefore, the courts have provided complicated definitions of a for the sake of saving £100,000 per annum, we will be miscarriage of justice, which are often confusing to a trading in the centuries-old principle of the presumption lay person and are by definition subject to change over of innocence. The courts have rejected an innocence test time. In this instance, it is unlikely that an applicant for not out of some quibbling legalistic technicality. They compensation would know what have rejected it because it is a cornerstone of a fair “properly directed as to the law” 619 Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and 15 OCTOBER 2013 Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and 620 Policing Bill Policing Bill [Damian Green] that cuts across that. We consider that article 14.6 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, to means in a particular case. That would have disadvantages which section 133 of the Criminal Justice Act 1988 for applicants, who will find it difficult to know whether gives effect, provides only for compensation to be paid they have a valid claim, or to understand the Secretary to those persons whose convictions have been overturned of State’s decision on their case. because a new fact shows that they did not commit the offence. In the Government’s view, that is the proper Emily Thornberry: Does the right hon. Gentleman definition of a miscarriage of justice. Compensation agree that, although there has been a challenge in should not be payable where the basis for the conviction respect of the case of Adams in the Supreme Court, the being overturned does not demonstrate the applicant’s position has not moved and the law on the definition of innocence. miscarriage of justice has been settled since 2011? The hon. Member for Islington South and Finsbury (Emily Thornberry) brought up the European Court of Damian Green: I will come to the Adams case in a Human Rights. We are aware of its decision on this moment, if the hon. Lady will be patient. issue and we have written in some detail to the Joint Committee on Human Rights about it. However, we Many disappointed applicants seek judicial review of continue to consider that this provision would not interfere the Secretary of State’s decision, because they do not with a person’s fundamental right to be presumed innocent fully understand its basis or because the case law is until proven guilty. We take firm support for this view unclear. In practice, very few such claims succeed, and from the Supreme Court in the Adams case, which held they place a significant burden on the applicant involved unanimously that the presumption of innocence is not and on the taxpayers who have to fund them. Therefore, infringed by the current arrangements for compensating the purpose of clause 143 is to restore the law to the a miscarriage of justice. In our view, the proposed pre-2011 position and to make the definition of a change does not alter that analysis. As the European miscarriage of justice more consistent, clearer and easier Court acknowledged, more than an acquittal is required for the public and potential applicants to understand. to establish that there has been a miscarriage of justice. That is fairer than using an obscure and confusing Through clause 143, we are determining where that line definition, or continuing to work, as we have to now, should be drawn. with a definition that is subject to unpredictable change. We are firmly of the view that the provision is compatible Under clause 143, there is no requirement for a with our international obligations and the convention person applying for compensation for a miscarriage of rights. I am conscious that we are in discussions with justice to “prove” their innocence. What is determinative the Joint Committee about that and that we hold different is the fact on which the conviction was overturned. So, views on the matter. for example, if a person’s conviction is overturned because DNA evidence comes to light showing they could not have committed the offence, it is only right that they Simon Hughes: Although this issue is being dealt with should be compensated. Following the coming into very carefully, there is clearly a difference of view, and force of clause 143, they will, as now, be eligible for the hon. Member for Islington South and Finsbury compensation. (Emily Thornberry) made the case for the legal justification. Rather than just have a battle at the other end of the The proposed new test for determining eligibility for building and a lottery of an outcome, will my right hon. compensation does not require the applicant to demonstrate Friend undertake to facilitate a meeting of all those his or her innocence; it focuses on the new fact. When interested in both Houses with members of the relevant the Grand Chamber of the European Court of Human Committees so that we can hear evidence and try to do Rights recently ruled in the case of Allen that the the job properly, and see whether the Government have presumption of innocence is engaged when deciding adopted the right position or we need to do something whether to pay compensation for a miscarriage of justice, else? I would far rather we got it right and were really the Court made it clear that states were entitled to clear and all signed up than we had a maverick outcome conclude that more than an acquittal was required. This that satisfied very few or nobody. clause will enable us to say, for the first time in statute, what beyond an acquittal is necessary for there to have been a miscarriage of justice. It introduces for the first Damian Green: I am happy to continue to engage in time some certainty in the process. the discussions that the Departments have been having I should say in response to a point made by the hon. with the Joint Committee or anyone else, but I regret to Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn) that the say that I am not sure that having a meeting at which a clause will have no impact at all on the very valuable definitive view could be arrived at would be possible, as work being done every day by the Criminal Cases that would be subcontracting the right of Parliament to Review Commission, and nor will it change the basis on be that Chamber—that is the purpose of this House which a conviction is overturned. and the other place, and I do not think it is constitutionally right to try to subcontract that to a meeting of experts. The nub of Members’ complaints about clause 143 is Emily Thornberry: I hope the right hon. Gentleman that it is in some way incompatible with the presumption recognises that the wording of amendment 95 reiterates of innocence—I do not think I am traducing hon. the wording in the settled case law I have been telling Members in saying that—and that is the issue we need him about. to address. Of course the Government recognise the fundamental constitutional importance of the presumption Damian Green: Yes, indeed, and I have addressed of innocence and we would not introduce legislation directly the cases the hon. Lady raised. 621 Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and 15 OCTOBER 2013 Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and 622 Policing Bill Policing Bill We are returning the law to where it was in 2008 (a) for “has committed an offence” there is substituted under the previous Government, where following the “has committed— decision of the House of Lords in Mullen, compensation (a) an offence”; was held to be payable only where a person could be (b) at the end there is inserted “, or shown not to have committed, or to have been demonstrably (b) an offence, under section 42 of the Road Traffic Act 1988, innocent of, the offence for which he was convicted. of contravening or failing to comply with a construction or use requirement about lighting equipment or reflectors As has been pointed out by the Supreme Court in for cycles;”.’.—(Damian Green.) Adams, it is difficult to glean exactly what the framers of the ICCPR intended on this point from the papers Brought up, and read the First time. now available, and nor is there international consensus on what the ICCPR requires in this regard. Signatories Damian Green: I beg to move, That the clause be read to the ICCPR have some latitude in determining the a Second time. requirements of article 14.6. For example. New Zealand and Canada restrict the payment of compensation for a Mr Speaker: With this it will be convenient to discuss miscarriage of justice to cases where the applicant was the following: innocent. Further, while the Supreme Court in Adams New clause 16—Control of new psychoactive substances— ultimately held that eligibility for compensation was not ‘(1) Any person supplying, or offering to supply, a synthetic limited to cases of innocence, four members of the psychoactive substance including but not restricted to— Supreme Court, including the current Lord Chief Justice, (a) a powder; considered that compensation should be payable only in (b) a pill; cases of innocence. We are therefore confident that (c) a liquid; or what we are doing achieves the aim of creating a more (d) a herbal substance with the appearance of cannabis, readily comprehensible test which meets the Government’s which is likely to be consumed by a person for the purpose of policy objectives, while also complying with our causing intoxication will be subject to a Synthetic Psychoactive international obligations. Product Order prohibiting its supply. We recognise the fundamental constitutional importance (2) Any subsequent breach of that Order will be an offence. of the presumption of innocence, and there may simply (3) A person guilty of an offence under this section shall be be a disagreement in this Chamber as to whether we are liable on summary conviction to imprisonment for a term not breaching it, but I can assure the House that there is no exceeding six months or to a fine not exceeding level 5 on the intention of doing so, and I am firmly of the belief that standard scale. clause 143 does not do that. All it does is require (4) This section does not apply to alcohol, tobacco, or any compensation to be paid to those persons whose convictions drug currently scheduled under the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971 or have been overturned because a new fact shows that the Medicines Act 1968.’. they did not in fact commit the offence. This, in the New clause 26—Assault on workers in public facing Government’s view, is the proper definition to be given roles— to a miscarriage of justice ‘(1) A person, being a member of the public, who assaults a I hope I have cleared up what I think are genuine worker— misunderstandings about the effect of clause 143, and I (a) in the course of that worker’s employment, or urge the Members concerned to withdraw their (b) by reason of that worker’s employment, commits an amendments. offence. Question put and agreed to. (2) No offence is committed— New Clause 10 accordingly read a Second time, and (a) under subsection (1)(a) unless the person who assaults knows or ought to know that the worker is acting in added to the Bill. the course of the worker’s employment; (b) under subsection (1)(b) unless the assault is motivated, New Clause 11 in whole or in part, by malice towards the worker by reason of the worker’s employment. (3) In this section— POWER OF COMMUNITY SUPPORT OFFICER TO ISSUE “worker” means a person whose employment involves FIXED PENALTY NOTICE FOR CYCLE LIGHT OFFENCE dealing with members of the public, to any extent, ‘(1) Part 1 of Schedule 4 to the Police Reform Act 2002 but only if that employment involves— (powers of community support officers) is amended as follows. (a) being physically present in the same place and (2) In sub-paragraph (2)(b) of paragraph 1 (power to issue at the same time as one or more members of fixed penalty notices)— the public; and (a) for “in respect of an offence” there is substituted “in (b) (i) interacting with those members of the public respect of—an offence”; for the purposes of the employment; or (ii) (i) an offence”; providing a service to either particular members (b) at the end there is inserted “, or an offence, under of the public or the public generally. section 42 of the Road Traffic Act 1988, of contravening “employment” in this context means any paid or unpaid or failing to comply with a construction or use work whether under a contract, apprenticeship, or requirement about lighting equipment or reflectors otherwise. for cycles;”. (4) Evidence from a single source is sufficient evidence to (i) an offence, under section 42 of the Road Traffic establish for the purpose of subsection (1) whether a person is a Act 1988, of contravening or failing to comply worker. with a construction or use requirement about lighting (5) A person guilty of an offence under this Act is liable, on equipment or reflectors for cycles;”. summary conviction, to imprisonment for a period not exceeding (3) In sub-paragraph (2) of paragraph 11A (power to stop 12 months or to a fine not exceeding level 5 on the standard cycles)— scale.’. 623 Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and 15 OCTOBER 2013 Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and 624 Policing Bill Policing Bill [Mr Speaker] (2) The report shall include an assessment of those persons stopped, questioned or detained who have protected characteristics New clause 27—Long-term police authorisation requiring within the meaning of section 4 of the Equality Act 2010 (The independent approval— protected characteristics). (3) A Minister of the Crown, must not later than 3 months ‘( ) The Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000 is after the report has been laid before Parliament, make a motion amended as follows— in the House of Commons in relation to the report.’. (a) after section 32A (Authorisations requiring judicial approval) insert— New clause 32—Sunset provision for Schedule 7 to the “32AA Long-term police authorisations requiring Terrorism Act 2000— independent approval ‘(1) Schedule 7 to the Terrorism Act 2000 shall be repealed, (1) This section applies where a relevant person has granted a five years after the commencement of this Act, unless continued long-term authorisation under section 29. in force by an order under subsection (2). (2) The authorisation is not to take effect until such time (if (2) The Secretary of State may by order made by statutory any) as the relevant independent body has made an order instrument provide— approving the grant of the authorisation. (a) that those provisions which are in force shall continue (3) The relevant independent body may give approval under in force for a period not exceeding five years from the this section to the granting of an authorisation under section 29 coming into operation of the order; or if, and only if, the relevant independent body is satisfied that— (b) that those provisions which are for the time being in (a) at the time of the grant— force shall cease to be in force. (i) there were reasonable grounds for believing that the (3) No order shall be made under subsection (2) unless a draft requirements of section 29(2), and any requirements of the order has been laid before and approved by a resolution of imposed by virtue of section 29(7)(b) are satisfied both Houses of Parliament.’. in relation to that authorisation, and New clause 34—Public order offences committed against (ii) the relevant conditions were satisfied in relation to constables in private dwellings— that authorisation, and ‘(1) In section 4A of the Public Order Act 1986, after (b) at the time when the relevant independent body is subsection (3) there is inserted— considering the matter, there remain reasonable grounds for believing that the requirements of section 29(2), “(4) Subsection 2 and subsection 3(a) do not apply where the and any requirements imposed by virtue of section person who is harassed, alarmed or distressed is a constable who 29(7)(b) are satisfied in relation to that authorisation. is present in the dwelling in the execution of his duty.”. (4) For the purposes of subsection (3) the relevant conditions (2) In section 5 of the Public Order Act 1986, after subsection in relation to a grant by an individual holding an office, rank or (3) there is inserted— position in a relevant law enforcement agency, that— “(4) Subsection 2 and subsection 3(b) do not apply where the (a) the individual was a designated person for the purposes person who is harassed, alarmed or distressed is a constable who of section 29, is present in the dwelling in the execution of his duty.”. (b) the grant of an authorisation was not in breach of any (3) In section 18 of the Public Order Act 1986, after subsection prohibition imposed by virtue of section 29(7)(a) or (2) there is inserted— any restriction imposed by virtue of section 30(3), and “(3) Subsection 2 and subsection (4) do not apply where the person who is harassed, alarmed or distressed is a constable who (c) any other conditions that may be provided for by the is present in the dwelling in the execution of his duty.”.’. Secretary of State were satisfied. Government amendments 51 to 55 (5) In this section— “relevant law enforcement authority” means— Amendment 148, page 98, line 17, in clause 127, leave (a) a police force in the United Kingdom, and out lines 17 and 18 and insert (b) the National Crime Agency. ‘Schedule 7 to the Terrorism Act 2000 is repealed.’. “relevant judicial authority” means— Amendment 150, page 98, line 18, at end add— (a) in relation to England and Wales, the High ‘(2) The Secretary of State shall by order make any amendments Court of Justice in England and Wales, to Schedule 7 or 8 to the Terrorism Act 2000 recommended by the (b) in relation to Scotland, the Court of Session, Independent Reviewer of Terrorism Legislation to limit the scope and of its application.’. (c) in relation to Northern Ireland, the High Court of Justice in Northern Ireland. Amendment 136, page 116, line 4, in clause 144, leave out subsection (2). “relevant person” means— (a) an individual holding an office, rank or position Government amendments 61, 65, 67, 69, 70, 71, 73, in a police force in the United Kingdom, and 78, 79 to 81. (b) an individual holding an office, rank or Amendment 149, page 146, line 26, leave out schedule 7. position in the National Crime Agency. Amendment 151, page 147, line 15, in schedule 7, at (6) In this section— end insert— “relevant independent body” must be set out by the Home Secretary in a motion passed by both Houses ‘Power to stop, question and detain of Parliament before this Clause is enacted. 1A (1) Schedule 7 to the Terrorism Act 2000 is amended as “long-term” must be set out by the Home Secretary in follows. a motion passed by both Houses of Parliament (2) Paragraph 2(4) is repealed. before this Clause is enacted.”.’. (3) After paragraph 4 there is inserted— New clause 31—Annual review of Schedule 7 to the 4A An examining officer must ensure that all questioning, Terrorism Act— beginning at the commencement of the examination, is recorded ‘(1) The Independent Reviewer of Terrorism Legislation shall and retained for as long as is deemed necessary, which must be no monitor and publish a report to Parliament providing an analysis less than one year, so that it may be used in any complaints of the application of Schedule 7 to the Terrorism Act 2000. process that may follow.’. 625 Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and 15 OCTOBER 2013 Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and 626 Policing Bill Policing Bill Amendment 179, page 147, line 16, at end insert— Amendment 183, page 150, line 2, after ‘officer’ leave ‘Limits on duty to give information and documents out 1A In paragraph 5(1) of Schedule 7 to the Terrorism Act 2000, ‘at such intervals as may be specified in, and otherwise in before “A person who is questioned” there is inserted “Subject to accordance with, the code of practice’ paragraph 9A below”.’. and insert— Amendment 178, page 147, line 25, at end insert— ‘(2A) The first review shall be carried out as soon as is ‘(2A) A person questioned under paragraph 2 or 3 may not be reasonably practicable after the time of the person’s detention detained under paragraph 6 unless the examining officer has and not more than one hour from that time. reasonable grounds to suspect that he is a person falling within (2B) Subsequent reviews shall be carried out at intervals of not section 40(1)(b).’. more than 2 hours.’. Amendment 180, page 147, line 33, before paragraph 3 Government amendments 84 to 86 and 91. insert— 2A In paragraph 8(1) of Schedule 7 to the Terrorism Act 2000, Damian Green: I propose to run through the Government before ‘An examining officer’ there is inserted ‘Subject to amendments in this group briskly, so that other Members paragraph 9A below.’. can speak to their amendments. Given the linkage to Amendment 181, page 148, line 20, at end insert— the Government amendments on low-value shop theft, 3A In paragraph 9(1) of Schedule 7 to the Terrorism Act 2000, I also intend to touch on amendment 136 tabled by my before “An examining officer” there is inserted “Subject to hon. Friend the Member for Shipley (Philip Davies). paragraph 9A below.”. With the leave of the House, I propose to respond to the 3B In Schedule 7 to the Terrorism Act 2000, after paragraph 9 other non-Government amendments in this group when there is inserted— winding up. “Data stored on personal electronic devices New clause 11 follows up a debate in Committee 9A (1) For the purposes of this Schedule— initiated by my hon. Friend the Member for North East (a) the information or documents which a person can be Cambridgeshire (Stephen Barclay), who raised some required to give the examining officer under paragraph important points about the powers of police community 5, support officers. In particular, he proposed that two (b) the things which may be searched under paragraph 8, new powers should be conferred on PCSOs: first, that and they should be able to issue a fixed penalty notice for (c) the property which may be examined under paragraph riding a bicycle without lights; and, secondly, that they 9, should be able to search someone for controlled drugs. do not include data stored on personal electronic devices I gave a commitment to consider my hon. Friend’s unless the person is detained under paragraph 6. proposals over the summer, in the context of the specific (2) “Personal electronic device” includes a mobile phone, a role that PCSOs play in our communities. As my hon. personal computer and any other portable electronic device on Friend pointed out, there is an inconsistency in PCSOs’ which personal information is stored.”.’. powers around cycling. They can issue a penalty notice Amendment 156, page 148, line 38, at end insert— for riding on a footway, but not for riding without ‘(4) The copy, and information derived from it, may be used lights. Extending their powers in respect of cycling, as for no other purposes than those specified in subparagraph (3).’. provided for in new clause 11, would end this anomaly Amendment 182, page 148, line 38, at end insert— and complement their important engagement role. Being on foot patrol, they are well-placed within their communities ‘Audio and video-recording of interviews to increase awareness and educate people about the 4A In paragraph 3(6) of Schedule 8 to the Terrorism Act 2000, importance of cycle safety. Backing this up with the power the words “if the interview takes place in a police station” are to issue a penalty notice could enhance the impact they omitted.’. have in their neighbourhoods. Amendment 157, page 148, line 38, at end insert— The power to search for controlled dugs is more ‘Right to silence complicated. We do need to keep a clear distinction 4A In Schedule 7 to the Terrorism Act 2000, after paragraph 18 between the role of a PCSO and that of a constable. We there is inserted— need to be mindful of the risk that new powers could 18A Right to silence increase the element of confrontation in the role of Nothing in this Schedule— PCSOs and detract from their presence on the streets. It is vital that we get this right and, accordingly, we are (a) imposes a duty on a person to respond to questioning; still considering whether such an expansion of powers or is appropriate. I assure my hon. Friend that I will let (b) allows inferences to be drawn from their silence.”.’. him and the House know the outcome of that consideration Amendment 152, page 148, line 42, at end insert— as quickly as possible. ‘(2A) In paragraph 6(1) the words “Subject to paragraph 8” are omitted.’. 2pm Amendment 153, page 148, line 43, after ‘7(1)’, insert— Amendments 51 to 55, 65, 70, 71, 77 and 84 to 86 (a) the words “Subject to paragraphs 8 and 9” are omitted; simply make various consequential amendments to the (b) ’. provisions in the Bill relating to the creation of the Amendment 154, page 148, line 43, at end insert— police remuneration review body, which will operate in England, Wales and Northern Ireland, to take account ‘(3A) Paragraph 8 is omitted.’. of the fact that the Scottish Government have now Amendment 155, page 149, line 1, at end insert— introduced their own legislation to establish the police ‘(4A) Paragraph 9 is omitted.’. negotiating board for Scotland. The amendments ensure 627 Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and 15 OCTOBER 2013 Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and 628 Policing Bill Policing Bill that various statutory references to the Police Negotiating excelling at school and at sport, and with a whole life Board for the United Kingdom which are being amended ahead of him, when he was cruelly murdered by racists. by the Bill, will now apply to the PNB for Scotland. To add insult to injury—I say this with regret—there Amendments 79 to 81 relate to the new powers to was clear evidence of racism in the way in which the seize invalid travel documents. They do not change the police inquiry was conducted. As if that were not bad powers, but simply improve the drafting to ensure that enough, serious allegations have now been made that there is absolute clarity. The amendments clarify that, the police then spied on the Lawrence family with a although a constable, immigration officer or a designated view to discrediting them. That has prompted the ongoing customs official may authorise a person to carry out a Operation Herne. search for travel documents on their behalf at a port, What happened to the Lawrence family is not the this power may only be exercised away from a port by a only situation that gives rise to concern. I am thinking, constable. The amendment restates that reasonable force for example, of the long-running infiltration of peaceful may be used if necessary when exercising the new search protesters in the environmental movement by Mark and seizure powers. Kennedy; serious questions have been asked about the On low-value shop theft, clause 144 is intended to accountability of the undercover police operation that improve the management through the courts of the was undertaken. Let me make myself clear: undercover high volume of shop thefts involving goods to the value policing is vital in the fight against serious organised of £200 or less by enabling them to benefit from procedures crime and terrorism, and is a key part of the police’s applying to summary only cases. In particular, offenders ability to keep communities safe. I pay tribute to the will be able to plead guilty by post and, in turn, the work done by brave police officers in dangerous and police will be able to prosecute suitable cases directly as often difficult circumstances. However, undercover “specified proceedings”, without the need to involve the operations are also incredibly sensitive and have a substantial Crown Prosecution Service. That will simplify procedures impact on the lives of members of the public. As such, and enable swifter justice in such cases. Although clause 144 they require the highest ethical and operational standards. makes low-value shop theft “summary only”, it preserves That is why we have tabled new clause 27 to ensure that the defendant’s right to be tried at the Crown Court, all long-term undercover operations would be signed through subsection (2) of new section 22A of the off by a relevant independent body, to ensure that this Magistrates’ Courts Act 1980. Amendment 136, tabled important tool is used proportionately, sensitively and by my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley, would only when necessary, and with clear and improved remove that subsection. The Government have been accountability arrangements. That type of sign-off for clear that they will defend the right to trial by jury; it is police operations has precedent. If the police or security an historic freedom that is rightly protected by the services want to break in and bug a room or intercept a coalition’s programme for government. Although the phone call, they have to have a justification in the statistics suggest that the right is not often exercised in interests of national security— cases of shop theft—last year, only 700 out of 77,000 cases went to the Crown Court—we see no reason to David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con): Will the hon. depart from that general principle. In this instance, I Gentleman give way? urge my hon. Friend to reconsider his amendment. Government amendments 61, 69 and 73 are Jack Dromey: Having taken several interventions consequential on those changes. Amendment 61 will yesterday, I say with great regret that, because of the ensure that a range of powers in the Police and Criminal time and because other issues are down for debate, I will Evidence Act 1984 available to the police and others to not take interventions. That will not be a precedent for deal with indictable offences, which currently includes the future. all theft from shops, will remain available to deal with On other kinds of police operation a sign-off is the theft of goods of a value of £200 or less. That means necessary, but the oversight of the existing arrangements that magistrates will still be able to issue search warrants, in this regard is inadequate. That cannot be right, so the police will be able to enter premises to search for our new clause would help to ensure that unacceptable evidence or arrest suspects, and store detectives will still operations such as the alleged smear campaign against be able to arrest suspects. I hope that that provides some the Lawrence family cannot take place and that each reassurance to some retailers that I know have been operation undertaken is accountable, justifiable and in anxious about this. The amendment also ensures that the wider public interest. the equivalent PACE provisions applying to service personnel are similarly amended to preserve relevant Let me now deal with new clause 26. Last year alone, powers of investigation. This will ensure that cases of 4% of retail staff were attacked at work and 34% were shop theft can continue to be investigated and pursued threatened with violence. Our new clause seeks to address appropriately and rigorously by the police, while providing a discrepancy in sentencing policy regarding people that where individuals are to be prosecuted in court, who suffer serious assaults during the course of their that can be done more efficiently and effectively. daily employment. At present, sentencing guidelines are explicit that an aggravating factor in determining a sentence for common assault on a public-facing worker Jack Dromey: I wish to speak to new clauses 27, should be whether the offence was committed against 26 and 16 and, given the time available, I will do so as an individual working in the public sector or providing quickly as possible. a service to the public. Whereas assaulting a police Today, in another place, the remarkable Doreen Lawrence constable while they are discharging their duty is a will be ennobled. Twenty years ago her son was cruelly separate offence that carries an additional sentence, an murdered. The son of Neville, a carpenter, and Doreen, attack on those in public sector employment, such as a special needs teacher, Stephen was but 18 years old, nurses, is an aggravated offence. However, that consideration 629 Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and 15 OCTOBER 2013 Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and 630 Policing Bill Policing Bill does not apply in respect of the millions of hard-working young people, use them and there is profoundly worrying people in our shops, petrol stations and restaurants. research, including from the European Monitoring Centre That leaves the judge to decide under which of the three for Drugs and Drug Addiction, on their impact. categories of harm and culpability, the 19 aggravating Our country is almost at the top of the league in the factors and the 11 factors reducing the seriousness, European Union and it is the second biggest market in assaulting a staff member falls. That is why there is real the world, not just because of the online operators but concern, particularly but not exclusively in the retail because of the hundreds of high-street legal high sellers. sector, about the level of attacks on employees and the sentencing guidelines—or lack thereof. This is a real problem, brought to the public attention not only by Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind) rose— unions such as the Union of Shop, Distributive and Allied Workers but by the British Retail Consortium, Jack Dromey: I will not give way, because of the time who have come together to advance the “Freedom from that I have available. Fear” campaign. In conclusion, I recognise that some progress has Although some progress has been made—of that there been made and I also recognise the action that has been is no doubt—there remains an unacceptable level of taken by many trading standards officers. It is absolutely assaults against public-facing workers, with 30,000 attacks clear, however, that the Government need to go further. on shop staff reported last year. Indeed, the British Their approach should be flexible but determined, with Retail Consortium estimates that the figure could be as the necessary powers to take us beyond the existing high as 35,000. That does not include those that were arrangements, under which only a handful of legal not reported. Our proposed new clause simply makes it highs are scrutinised every year. This is a marketplace clear that attacking an individual in the course of their where new products constantly evolve, many of which employment should be considered an aggravating factor, put those who use them seriously at risk, and in the whether they work in the public or the private sector. future we should tackle the problem, banning the use of such products, while, where appropriate, putting out of It cannot be right that we have an unacceptable level business those who promote and sell them. I hope that of assaults on staff, some of which are very serious with the Government will respond positively to this powerful lasting traumatic effects. That includes a machete raid case, not least because it is being put by many of those on a corner shop in which an individual suffered severe whose sons and daughters have died as a consequence lacerations. Only £150 was stolen, but the impact on the of using substances that they never believed for one individual has been profound and lasting. The evidence moment would put their lives at risk. from many of the attacks shows that they impact on the mental and physical well-being of the staff who were trying to do their jobs, and that should not be underestimated. 2.15 pm Of course it is right that we should give particular consideration to police officers and nurses and doctors David T. C. Davies: I know that the hon. Member for in hospitals, but our new clause says that if someone is Stockport (Ann Coffey) and other hon. Members wish working in a betting shop, an off-licence or a supermarket, to speak, so I shall be as quick as I can. or on a bus run by a private company, their job is also I declare an interest as a special constable with the important. They serve the public, even if they are not British Transport police, which is why I wanted to public servants. Does the Minister not agree that they speak. My speech can be short, because I agree with should be afforded the same support and protection in most of what the hon. Member for Birmingham, Erdington the workplace? We believe that the time has come to (Jack Dromey) said. I particularly support new clause send an unmistakable message that all citizens are entitled 26 on public-facing workers. I have little need to add not just to dignity at work but to security at work. anything. The hon. Gentleman was absolutely right in We hope that the Minister will respond positively to everything he said. In fact, only yesterday, I dealt with a new clause 27 and that further consideration will be lady, a retail worker, who had been spat at at close given to the idea in the other place. Our intention on range. Obviously, I meet many rail staff who—the hon. new clause 26, if the Minister does not agree to it, is to Gentleman did not mention this—are the victims of press it to a vote. daily verbal and physical abuse. We have already heard about nurses, too. I absolutely agree with the new clause New clause 16 is about the control of new psychoactive and told my Whips that I would support it and vote for substances or legal highs. The problem with legal highs it, if it came to a vote. is exactly that—they are legal, so people do not see I am saddened that I am unable to do so, however, them as dangerous or feel the need to be careful about because of new clause 34, about which the hon. Member them or about the regulation around them. One such for Stockport will speak in a minute. I ask her to think case involved Maryon Stewart, whose child tragically very carefully about that, because the clause would died and who established the Angelus Foundation. We reverse some of the good work that would be done by need to ensure that anyone who uses a legal high knows new clause 26. It would take away some of the rights the effect and that there is proper regulation to ensure that police constables, who are, after all, public sector, that we do not have legal highs that lead to a high public-facing workers, should have. They should have number of deaths. There were 29 such deaths in 2011 the same rights as nurses, rail staff, bus drivers and the and 52 in 2012. All the indications suggest that that rest. That is important because police officers are often figure is growing. called to domestic dwelling houses late at night, in cases We have proposed the new clause because the number where drugs and drink can be involved, and they will of new psychoactive substances is on the rise. It is suffer horrendous verbal abuse and, sometimes, threats estimated that more than 500,000 people, predominantly of physical abuse. I do not think that police officers 631 Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and 15 OCTOBER 2013 Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and 632 Policing Bill Policing Bill [David T. C. Davies] nigger in the street, an offence would have been committed, but none was committed because it happened inside a should have to put up with that any more than social house. I hope the Minister will feel able to consider the workers or anyone else who goes into a private dwelling amendment that I propose. house. New clause 34 might also have unintended consequences. Simon Hughes: I shall be very brief as we are short of I am not trying to suggest that anyone is doing anything time, and I know that my hon. Friend the Member for wrong, but sometimes neighbours might ring to allege Cambridge (Dr Huppert) also hopes to catch your eye, that domestic violence is taking place and, when the Madam Deputy Speaker. police officer arrives, they might find one angry male—I I draw the attention of the House and those watching am sorry if that is a stereotype, but it is often the our proceedings to amendments 179, 178, 180, 181 and case—under the influence of drink and shouting, swearing 183. I do that not just in my own name, but on behalf of and so on. If neither of the people in that house is able the Joint Committee on Human Rights, which examined to make an accusation, the fact that one person is drunk the issue as part of its consideration of the Bill. The and shouting might be enough to allow a police officer Joint Committee is disappointed that the Government to remove them from the premises by arresting them have not yet published in full their responses to their under the Public Order Act 1986. That is not something consultation on schedule 7. These are controversial that police officers do lightly because they know that any issues. Of course, we need anti-terrorist legislation and arrest needs to be proportionate and that they will have there is always a balance to be worked out between the to take somebody in front of a custody officer, who will civil liberty of the subject and the powers of the authorities. not take kindly to arrests made without due cause. I ask We believe, however, that it is very important that the hon. Lady to think very carefully about her new clause. legislation distinguishes between the conventional powers to If the hon. Member for Birmingham, Erdington wishes stop, to search, and to question, which can be exercised to propose his new clause on some other occasion or to without reasonable suspicion, and more intrusive table an early-day motion, I will fully support him. I powers, such as those of detaining and taking biometric offer him my public support and I will vote for such samples, for which the Committee believes the Government protection for public sector workers. I would not do so, have not yet made a persuasive case. The Joint however, at the expense of police officers, who are also Committee recommends introducing a reasonable suspicion public sector workers like all the others. requirement for the more intrusive powers under schedule 7. I know that some argue that schedule 7 should go Ann Coffey (Stockport) (Lab): I want to say a few altogether. That is not the position of the Joint Committee words on new clause 34. I thank the hon. Member for nor, coincidentally, is it the position of my party, which Monmouth (David T. C. Davies) for giving me his views debated this at our conference in Glasgow a few weeks on it, but I think there might have been a misunderstanding. ago and took a view that there should be amendment broadly along the lines set out by the Joint Committee. The new clause would change the law to make the use of racist or other abusive language in a dwelling house The issue came to prominence, as the House will an offence when it was directed at a policeman. I was remember, in August, when Mr David Miranda was recently contacted by a serving police officer from my stopped at Heathrow when coming into this country on constituency who was present when a colleague from his way back home to Brazil and was detained for nine the Greater Manchester police was called a “nigger” in hours under the anti-terror laws. There were protests by a private house. Under section 4A of the Public Order the Brazilian Government and widespread concern about Act 1986, no offence is committed if the “harassment, whether the powers were used extensively. We hope we alarm or distress”takes place inside a dwelling house—that can persuade the Government to take the position of is, somebody’s house or flat. I was surprised by that the Joint Committee on Human Rights, but we will not because, like many people, I was under the impression seek to divide the House this afternoon, hoping there that racist abuse was an offence wherever it was committed. might be a chance not just for my hon. Friend, but even However, this is not the case. I was shocked to hear that for the Minister to respond to our concerns. somebody could not be charged with the offence because it took place in a dwelling against a police officer Dr Huppert: I shall do my best to be brief to allow the pursuing his duty. Minister time to respond to the debate. My amendment would make it an offence to use I welcome Government new clause 11. It is right to racist or other abusive language against a police constable extend powers to PCSOs, allowing them to issue fixed who was present in a dwelling in the execution of his penalty notices to cyclists riding without lights. I am a duty. The police officer from my constituency described huge champion of cycling. I was delighted when the attending a property where two men were aggressively House passed a motion to get Britain cycling. One of arguing. One was very drunk and called one of the the banes of my life in that context is cyclists who do police officers a nigger. The officer described seeing her not obey the rules of the road. Anything that we can do colleague abused and she told me, “I was quite horrified to get people to cycle safely and legally will make it he had to endure this kind of abuse. I felt very frustrated easier for those of us who want to extend facilities for and helpless that we could not charge the offender with cyclists. There are sensible ways forward. In Cambridge any offence.” I am sure that this is by no means an we have been using a “lights instead of tickets” campaign isolated case and I suspect that other professionals such to make sure that people get their lights. I welcome the as social workers and health visitors have also been new clause as a sensible step forward. subject to racist abuse when visiting a person at their I shall spend most of my time talking about schedule 7 home address. It does not seem right to me or, I suspect, to the Terrorism Act 2000, to which I have tabled a to the public that if the police officer had been called a series of amendments. There has been particular controversy 633 Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and 15 OCTOBER 2013 Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and 634 Policing Bill Policing Bill recently, as my right hon. Friend the Member for On new clause 26, as I said in Committee, I entirely Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes) agree with the sentiments behind the clause. The work mentioned, because of the detention of David Miranda, of a great number of people, whether within the public the partner of The Guardian journalist working on the or the private sector, brings them into face-to-face Edward Snowden leaks. This has led to the Independent contact with members of the public, and we know Police Complaints Commission taking the Met to the that some of these people suffer violence in the course High Court over failure to address complaints and how of their jobs. It is essential that we are satisfied that the schedule 7 is used. This is a very broadly written power. law adequately addresses this issue. However, I do not It should not be a surprise that it has expanded from its think the new clause is necessary to achieve that. There original use in Northern Ireland in the 1970s to become is already a range of offences that have general application worse and worse as illiberal Governments have made it and that criminalise violent behaviour and they would even heavier. already apply in the context envisaged by the clause. It seems to me that it is not right for people who Sentencing guidelines specify that where an assault is “look like terrorists” to be detained. That is exactly committed against someone providing a service to the what happens under schedule 7. StopWatch has done a public, whether in the public or private sector, this is an huge amount of work on this. Last year there were aggravating factor and so could well result in a higher 64,000 schedule 7 stops—a huge number. Twenty-seven sentence within the current maximum. So I do not think per cent. of those stopped for under an hour were the clause is necessary, although as I said, I sympathise Asian, much more than their proportion in the community, with the sentiment behind it. and 77% of those stopped for more than an hour were New clause 27 seeks to introduce a system of independent from ethnic minority populations. We should not consider authorisation for undercover policing operations. I that acceptable. StopWatch cites some chilling quotes announced to the Home Affairs Committee in June our from one man Glasgow who said that intention to legislate to enhance oversight of undercover “the first thing you ask your friend is . . . not how was the holiday, law enforcement officer deployments. This can be done it’s did you get stopped and what did they ask you?” through secondary legislation and I will lay the appropriate order before the House shortly. If we are setting up a power that creates huge concern in the Muslim and ethnic minority populations, that will The changes will mean that law enforcement agencies separate people from the bulk of our country and is will need to notify the Surveillance Commissioners, all deeply alarming. The Equality and Human Rights retired senior judges, at the outset of undercover operations Commission and David Anderson QC have also and get their prior approval for every deployment that commented on how damaging that is. lasts longer than 12 months. In addition, I am increasing the rank of the authorising officer. Deployments of This is a matter that Liberal Democrats have been undercover law enforcement officers will be authorised concerned about for a long time. It is not just about at assistant chief constable level or equivalent. Deployments David Miranda, who has the support of The Guardian. lasting longer than 12 months will be authorised by a It is also about people who are detained routinely. That chief constable or equivalent. The rank of an authorising is why my party has debated this and why I tabled a officer for emergency deployments will increase range of proposals. There are many concerns about from inspector to superintendent level or equivalent. schedule 7. One option would be to get rid of it. There These changes will promote the highest standards of are alternative powers in section 47A. I hope the Minister professionalism and excellence in this most sensitive will comment on what that is. There are other options area of policing and therefore achieve the aims of new that we have looked at. I would like to see us committed clause 28. I hope they will be welcomed by the House. to David Anderson QC’s proposals to limit the scope of schedule 7. The Government should introduce provisions On schedule 7, there is clearly debate on whether this to that effect in the other place. requires further modification along the lines proposed in some of the amendments tabled by my hon. Friend I have also proposed implementing proposals that my the Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert) and others. party made at our conference. They include getting rid For the purposes of the debate today, I put it to my hon. of the principle that authorities can stop people without Friend and to the Chair of the Joint Committee that it any suspicion at all, restoring the right to silence for is premature to consider making such changes because those who are detained, and questioning to be recorded the Independent Reviewer of Terrorism Legislation, from start to finish. Restoring confidence and the basic David Anderson QC, has decided to investigate and principles of the rule of law to that process and making report on the exercise of these powers in the case of sure that data collected are not used inappropriately David Miranda. The Government, sensibly, will want to should be important in the case of David Miranda. I examine carefully any recommendations he makes in also propose a statutory principle of annual review and his report, and I am sure that the Joint Committee on a sunset clause. The Government should look at these Human Rights and my right hon. Friend the Member proposals and I hope they will take advantage of the for Bermondsey and Old Southwark will want to do process to make sure that that happens. I am glad that likewise. It would be wrong to pre-empt that report or that is supported by the Joint Committee on Human commit now to implementing its recommendations. It is Rights. for the independent reviewer to make recommendations, I would love to deal with the proposals made by the but it is for the Government and Parliament to decide Opposition and their proposals to ban synthetic caffeine, what legislative changes should flow from them. but in the interests of time I will allow the Minister to Given the importance of these issues, any such legislative respond. proposals should be subject to full parliamentary scrutiny, as with the provisions in the Bill, rather than being Damian Green: I am grateful. I shall be brief. implemented through secondary legislation, as my hon. 635 Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and 15 OCTOBER 2013 Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and 636 Policing Bill Policing Bill [Damian Green] courts listed in section 1(1) of the Courts Act 2003 and the tribunals listed in section 39(1) of the Tribunals, Courts and Friend the Member for Cambridge suggests in Enforcement Act 2007. amendment 150. Although I welcome this contribution— (5) A fee prescribed by virtue of subsection (1) under section 58(4)(b) of the Mental Capacity Act 2005 must be used to 2.30 pm finance the efficient and effective discharge of functions of the Public Guardian. Debate interrupted (Programme Order, 14 October). (6) A fee prescribed by virtue of subsection (1) under any The Deputy Speaker put forthwith the Question already other enactment specified in subsection (2) must be used to proposed from the Chair (Standing Order No. 83E), finance an efficient and effective system of courts and tribunals. That the clause be read a Second time. (7) A statutory instrument— Question agreed to. (a) containing an order or regulations under an enactment specified in subsection (2), and New Clause 11 accordingly read a Second time, and added to the Bill. (b) setting a fee for the first time in excess of the cost of anything in respect of which the fee is charged, The Deputy Speaker then put forthwith the Questions may not be made unless a draft of the instrument has been laid necessary for the disposal of the business to be concluded before both Houses of Parliament and approved by a resolution at that time (Standing Order No. 83E). of each House.—(Damian Green.) Brought up, and added to the Bill. New Clause 12 New Clause 26 CREDIT FOR TIME IN CUSTODY AWAITING EXTRADITION TO UNITED KINGDOM TO SERVE SENTENCE ASSAULT ON WORKERS IN PUBLIC FACING ROLES ‘In section 49 of the Prison Act 1952 (persons unlawfully at ‘(1) A person, being a member of the public, who assaults a large), after subsection (3) there is inserted— worker— “(3A) Where— (a) in the course of that worker’s employment, or (a) a person is extradited to the United Kingdom from a (b) by reason of that worker’s employment, commits an category 1 territory for the purpose of serving a term offence. of imprisonment or another form of detention (2) No offence is committed— mentioned in subsection (2) of this section, and (a) under subsection (1)(a) unless the person who assaults (b) the person was for any time kept in custody in that knows or ought to know that the worker is acting in territory with a view to the extradition (and not also the course of the worker’s employment; for any other reason), (b) under subsection (1)(b) unless the assault is motivated, the Secretary of State shall exercise the power under that in whole or in part, by malice towards the worker by subsection to direct that account shall be taken of that time in reason of the worker’s employment. calculating the period for which the person is liable to be detained. (3) In this section— (3B) In subsection (3A) of this section “category 1 territory” “worker” means a person whose employment involves means a territory designated under the Extradition Act 2003 for dealing with members of the public, to any extent, the purposes of Part 1 of that Act.”’.—(Damian Green.) but only if that employment involves— Brought up, and added to the Bill. (a) being physically present in the same place and at the same time as one or more members of the public; and New Clause 28 (b) (i) interacting with those members of the public for the purposes of the employment; or (ii) COURT AND TRIBUNAL FEES providing a service to either particular members ‘(1) In prescribing a fee under an enactment specified in of the public or the public generally. subsection (2), the Lord Chancellor may with the consent of the “employment” in this context means any paid or unpaid Treasury prescribe a fee of an amount which is intended to work whether under a contract, apprenticeship, or exceed the cost of anything in respect of which the fee is charged. otherwise. (2) The enactments are— (4) Evidence from a single source is sufficient evidence to establish for the purpose of subsection (1) whether a person is a (a) section 92 of the Courts Act 2003 (Senior Courts, worker. county courts and magistrates’ courts fees); (5) A person guilty of an offence under this Act is liable, on (b) section 54 of the Mental Capacity Act 2005 (Court of summary conviction, to imprisonment for a period not exceeding Protection fees); 12 months or to a fine not exceeding level 5 on the standard (c) section 58(4)(b) of that Act (Public Guardian fees); scale.’.—(Jack Dromey.) (d) section 42 of the Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement Brought up, Act 2007 (tribunal fees). Question put (3) Before prescribing a fee by virtue of subsection (1) under , That the clause be added to the Bill. an enactment specified in subsection (2)(a), (b) or (d), the Lord The House divided: Ayes 224, Noes 286. Chancellor must have regard to— Division No. 98] [2.31 pm (a) the financial position of the courts and tribunals for which the Lord Chancellor is responsible, including in particular any costs incurred by those courts and AYES tribunals that are not being met by current fee Abbott, Ms Diane Allen, Mr Graham income, and Abrahams, Debbie Ashworth, Jonathan (b) the competitiveness of the legal services market. Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Austin, Ian (4) For the purposes of subsection (3)(a), the courts and Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Bailey, Mr Adrian tribunals for which the Lord Chancellor is responsible are the Ali, Rushanara Bain, Mr William 637 Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and 15 OCTOBER 2013 Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and 638 Policing Bill Policing Bill Balls, rh Ed Fovargue, Yvonne Miller, Andrew Shannon, Jim Barron, rh Mr Kevin Francis, Dr Hywel Mitchell, Austin Sharma, Mr Virendra Beckett, rh Margaret Gardiner, Barry Morden, Jessica Sheerman, Mr Barry Begg, Dame Anne Gilmore, Sheila Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Sheridan, Jim Benn, rh Hilary Glass, Pat Morris, Grahame M. Simpson, David Berger, Luciana Goggins, rh Paul (Easington) Skinner, Mr Dennis Betts, Mr Clive Goodman, Helen Mudie, Mr George Slaughter, Mr Andy Blackman-Woods, Roberta Greatrex, Tom Munn, Meg Smith, Angela Blears, rh Hazel Greenwood, Lilian Murphy, rh Paul Smith, Nick Blenkinsop, Tom Griffith, Nia Murray, Ian Smith, Owen Blomfield, Paul Gwynne, Andrew Nandy, Lisa Spellar, rh Mr John Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Hain, rh Mr Peter O’Donnell, Fiona Stringer, Graham Brennan, Kevin Hamilton, Mr David Onwurah, Chi Stuart, Ms Gisela Brown, Lyn Hamilton, Fabian Osborne, Sandra Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Hanson, rh Mr David Owen, Albert Tami, Mark Brown, Mr Russell Harman, rh Ms Harriet Perkins, Toby Thornberry, Emily Bryant, Chris Harris, Mr Tom Pound, Stephen Trickett, Jon Buck, Ms Karen Havard, Mr Dai Powell, Lucy Turner, Karl Burden, Richard Healey, rh John Qureshi, Yasmin Twigg, Derek Burnham, rh Andy Hendrick, Mark Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Twigg, Stephen Byrne, rh Mr Liam Hermon, Lady Reed, Mr Jamie Vaz, rh Keith Campbell, Mr Alan Heyes, David Reed, Mr Steve Vaz, Valerie Campbell, Mr Gregory Hillier, Meg Reeves, Rachel Walley, Joan Campbell, Mr Ronnie Hilling, Julie Reynolds, Emma Watson, Mr Tom Caton, Martin Hodge, rh Margaret Reynolds, Jonathan Watts, Mr Dave Champion, Sarah Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Riordan, Mrs Linda Whitehead, Dr Alan Chapman, Jenny Hood, Mr Jim Ritchie, Ms Margaret Williams, Hywel Clark, Katy Hopkins, Kelvin Robertson, John Williamson, Chris Clarke, rh Mr Tom Howarth, rh Mr George Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Wilson, Phil Clwyd, rh Ann Hunt, Tristram Rotheram, Steve Wilson, Sammy Coaker, Vernon Irranca-Davies, Huw Roy, Mr Frank Winnick, Mr David Coffey, Ann Jackson, Glenda Roy, Lindsay Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Connarty, Michael Jamieson, Cathy Ruane, Chris Wright, David Cooper, Rosie Jarvis, Dan Ruddock, rh Dame Joan Wright, Mr Iain Cooper, rh Yvette Johnson, rh Alan Sarwar, Anas Tellers for the Ayes: Corbyn, Jeremy Johnson, Diana Sawford, Andy Heidi Alexander and Crausby, Mr David Jones, Graham Seabeck, Alison Stephen Doughty Creagh, Mary Jones, Helen Creasy, Stella Jones, Mr Kevan Cruddas, Jon Jones, Susan Elan NOES Cryer, John Jowell, rh Dame Tessa Adams, Nigel Brooke, Annette Cunningham, Alex Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Afriyie, Adam Browne, Mr Jeremy Cunningham, Sir Tony Keeley, Barbara Aldous, Peter Bruce, Fiona Curran, Margaret Kendall, Liz Amess, Mr David Bruce, rh Sir Malcolm Dakin, Nic Lammy, rh Mr David Andrew, Stuart Buckland, Mr Robert Danczuk, Simon Lavery, Ian Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Burley, Mr Aidan Darling, rh Mr Alistair Lazarowicz, Mark Bacon, Mr Richard Burns, Conor Davidson, Mr Ian Leslie, Chris Baker, Norman Burns, rh Mr Simon Davies, David T. C. Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma Baker, Steve Burrowes, Mr David (Monmouth) Lewis, Mr Ivan Baldwin, Harriett Burstow, rh Paul De Piero, Gloria Love, Mr Andrew Barclay, Stephen Burt, Lorely Denham, rh Mr John Lucas, Caroline Barker, rh Gregory Byles, Dan Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M. Lucas, Ian Barwell, Gavin Cairns, Alun Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Mactaggart, Fiona Bebb, Guto Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Doran, Mr Frank Mahmood, Mr Khalid Bellingham, Mr Henry Carmichael, Neil Dromey, Jack Mahmood, Shabana Benyon, Richard Cash, Mr William Dugher, Michael Malhotra, Seema Beresford, Sir Paul Chishti, Rehman Durkan, Mark Mann, John Berry, Jake Chope, Mr Christopher Eagle, Ms Angela Marsden, Mr Gordon Bingham, Andrew Clappison, Mr James Eagle, Maria McCabe, Steve Binley, Mr Brian Clark, rh Greg Efford, Clive McCann, Mr Michael Blackman, Bob Coffey, Dr Thérèse Elliott, Julie McCarthy, Kerry Blackwood, Nicola Collins, Damian Ellman, Mrs Louise McClymont, Gregg Boles, Nick Colvile, Oliver Engel, Natascha McCrea, Dr William Bone, Mr Peter Crabb, Stephen Esterson, Bill McDonald, Andy Bottomley, Sir Peter Crockart, Mike Evans, Chris McGovern, Alison Brady, Mr Graham Crouch, Tracey Farrelly, Paul McGovern, Jim Brake, rh Tom Davies, Glyn Field, rh Mr Frank McKechin, Ann Bray, Angie Davies, Philip Fitzpatrick, Jim McKenzie, Mr Iain Brazier, Mr Julian de Bois, Nick Flello, Robert McKinnell, Catherine Bridgen, Andrew Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Flint, rh Caroline Meale, Sir Alan Brine, Steve Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Flynn, Paul Mearns, Ian Brokenshire, James Dorries, Nadine 639 Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and 15 OCTOBER 2013 Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and 640 Policing Bill Policing Bill Doyle-Price, Jackie Jones, Andrew Pugh, John Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Drax, Richard Jones, rh Mr David Raab, Mr Dominic Syms, Mr Robert Duddridge, James Jones, Mr Marcus Randall, rh Mr John Thornton, Mike Dunne, Mr Philip Kawczynski, Daniel Reckless, Mark Thurso, John Ellis, Michael Kelly, Chris Redwood, rh Mr John Timpson, Mr Edward Ellison, Jane Kirby, Simon Rees-Mogg, Jacob Tomlinson, Justin Ellwood, Mr Tobias Knight, rh Mr Greg Reevell, Simon Tredinnick, David Elphicke, Charlie Kwarteng, Kwasi Reid, Mr Alan Truss, Elizabeth Eustice, George Laing, Mrs Eleanor Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Turner, Mr Andrew Evans, Graham Lamb, Norman Rogerson, Dan Tyrie, Mr Andrew Evans, Jonathan Lancaster, Mark Rosindell, Andrew Uppal, Paul Evans, Mr Nigel Latham, Pauline Rudd, Amber Vaizey, Mr Edward Evennett, Mr David Laws, rh Mr David Ruffley, Mr David Vara, Mr Shailesh Fabricant, Michael Leadsom, Andrea Russell, Sir Bob Vickers, Martin Fallon, rh Michael Lee, Jessica Rutley, David Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Farron, Tim Lee, Dr Phillip Sanders, Mr Adrian Walker, Mr Charles Featherstone, Lynne Leech, Mr John Sandys, Laura Walker, Mr Robin Field, Mark Lefroy, Jeremy Scott, Mr Lee Walter, Mr Robert Foster, rh Mr Don Leigh, Sir Edward Selous, Andrew Ward, Mr David Fox,rhDrLiam Leslie, Charlotte Shapps, rh Grant Watkinson, Dame Angela Francois, rh Mr Mark Lewis, Brandon Sharma, Alok Weatherley, Mike Freeman, George Lewis, Dr Julian Shelbrooke, Alec Webb, Steve Freer, Mike Lloyd, Stephen Simpson, Mr Keith Wharton, James Fullbrook, Lorraine Long, Naomi Skidmore, Chris Wheeler, Heather Fuller, Richard Lord, Jonathan Smith, Miss Chloe White, Chris Gale, Sir Roger Loughton, Tim Smith, Henry Whittaker, Craig Garnier, Sir Edward Luff, Peter Smith, Julian Whittingdale, Mr John Garnier, Mark Lumley, Karen Smith, Sir Robert Wiggin, Bill George, Andrew Macleod, Mary Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Williams, Roger Gibb, Mr Nick Main, Mrs Anne Spencer, Mr Mark Williams, Stephen Gilbert, Stephen Maude, rh Mr Francis Stanley, rh Sir John Williamson, Gavin Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Maynard, Paul Stephenson, Andrew Wilson, Mr Rob Glen, John McCartney, Karl Stevenson, John Wollaston, Dr Sarah Goldsmith, Zac McIntosh, Miss Anne Stewart, Bob Wright, Jeremy Goodwill, Mr Robert McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Stewart, Iain Wright, Simon Graham, Richard McPartland, Stephen Streeter, Mr Gary Young, rh Sir George Grant, Mrs Helen Menzies, Mark Stride, Mel Zahawi, Nadhim Gray, Mr James Mercer, Patrick Stuart, Mr Graham Green, rh Damian Metcalfe, Stephen Stunell, rh Sir Andrew Tellers for the Noes: Griffiths, Andrew Milton, Anne Sturdy, Julian Karen Bradley and Gummer, Ben Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Swales, Ian Jenny Willott Gyimah, Mr Sam Moore, rh Michael Halfon, Robert Mordaunt, Penny Question accordingly negatived. Hames, Duncan Morgan, Nicky Hammond, Stephen Morris, Anne Marie Hands, Greg Morris, James Harper, Mr Mark Mosley, Stephen Harris, Rebecca Mowat, David Clause 104 Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Mulholland, Greg Hayes, rh Mr John Munt, Tessa Heath, Mr David Murray, Sheryll OFFENCE OF FORCED MARRIAGE Heaton-Harris, Chris Newmark, Mr Brooks Amendments made: 49, page 75, line 17, after ‘offence’ Hemming, John Newton, Sarah insert ‘under the law of England and Wales’. Henderson, Gordon Nokes, Caroline Amendment 50, page 75, line 22, after ‘offence’ insert Hendry, Charles Norman, Jesse ‘under the law of England and Wales’.—(Damian Green.) Herbert, rh Nick Nuttall, Mr David Hinds, Damian O’Brien, rh Mr Stephen Hoban, Mr Mark Ollerenshaw, Eric Hollingbery, George Opperman, Guy Hollobone, Mr Philip Ottaway, rh Richard Clause 112 Holloway, Mr Adam Paice, rh Sir James Hopkins, Kris Parish, Neil Horwood, Martin Patel, Priti ABOLITION OF POLICE NEGOTIATING BOARD FOR THE Howell, John Paterson, rh Mr Owen UNITED KINGDOM Hughes, rh Simon Pawsey, Mark Amendment made: 51, page 80, line 24, at end insert— Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Penrose, John ‘( ) The Secretary of State may secure the reimbursement of Hunter, Mark Perry, Claire payments made under section 61(5) or (7) of the Police Act 1996 Huppert, Dr Julian Phillips, Stephen (payment by Scottish Ministers or Department of Justice in Hurd, Mr Nick Pickles, rh Mr Eric Northern Ireland towards expenses incurred by the Police Jackson, Mr Stewart Pincher, Christopher Negotiating Board for the United Kingdom) to the extent that, Jenkin, Mr Bernard Poulter, Dr Daniel by reason of the abolition of the Board, the payments are not Johnson, Gareth Prisk, Mr Mark needed.’.—(Damian Green.) 641 Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and 15 OCTOBER 2013 Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and 642 Policing Bill Policing Bill Clause 114 Amendment 60, page 103, line 25, at end insert— ‘( ) In section 110 of that Act (appeal against discharge by CONSULTATION ABOUT REGULATIONS:ENGLAND AND Secretary of State)— WALES (a) in subsection (4), for “section may” there is substituted Amendments made: 52, page 83, line 22, leave out “section— ‘Police Advisory Board for England and Wales’ and (a) may”; insert ‘appropriate advisory or negotiating body’. (b) at the end of that subsection there is inserted “, but Amendment 53, page 83, line 24, at end insert— (b) lies only with the leave of the High Court.”’.— (Damian Green.) ‘(1A) In subsection (1) above, “the appropriate advisory or negotiating body” means— (a) as regards England and Wales, the Police Advisory Clause 144 Board for England and Wales; LOW-VALUE SHOPLIFTING (b) as regards Scotland, the Police Negotiating Board for Scotland.’. Amendment made: 61, page 117, line 13, at end insert— Amendment 54, page 83, line 25, after ‘above’ insert ‘(5A) Any reference in the Police and Criminal Evidence ‘as regards England and Wales,’. Act 1984 to an “indictable offence” has effect as if it included a reference to low-value shoplifting (as defined in section 22A(3) of Amendment 55, page 83, line 37, leave out from the Magistrates’ Courts Act 1980). ‘paragraph’to end of line 40 and insert ‘3, for sub-paragraph (5B) In section 84 of the Armed Forces Act 2006 (definitions), (3) there is substituted— after subsection (2) there is inserted— ‘(3) The Secretary of State shall— “(2A) In subsection (2)(a), the reference to an “indictable (a) consult with the Police Advisory Board for England offence” has effect as if it included a reference to low-value and Wales before exercising the power as regards shoplifting (as defined in section 22A(3) of the Magistrates’ England and Wales; Courts Act 1980).”’.—(Damian Green.) (b) consult with the Police Negotiating Board for Scotland before exercising the power as regards Scotland; Clause 147 (c) consult with the Northern Ireland Policing Board and the Police Association for Northern Ireland before COURT AND TRIBUNAL FEES exercising the power as regards Northern Ireland.”’. Amendment made: 137, page 118, leave out Clause 147. —(Damian Green.) —(Damian Green.)

Clause 129 Clause 149 DATE OF EXTRADITION HEARING ORDERS AND REGULATIONS Amendment made: 56, page 99, line 6, leave out from Amendment made: 62, page 119, line 21, at end insert ‘But’ to end of line 8 and insert ‘if proceedings in ‘, but this does not apply to a power of the Scottish respect of the extradition are adjourned under section 8A Ministers to make an order under section 152’. or 8B, the permitted period is extended by the number of days for which the proceedings are so adjourned.”’.— Amendment 138, page 119, leave out line 23.—(Damian (Damian Green.) Green.)

Clause 134 Clause 151

EXTENT APPEALS Amendments made: 57, page 103, line 2, at end insert— Amendments made:: 63, page 120, line 11, at end insert— ‘( ) In section 28 of that Act (appeal against discharge at extradition hearing: category 1 territory)— ‘() section [Violent offender orders];’. (a) in subsection (4), for “section may” there is substituted Amendment 64, page 120, line 12, leave out ‘Part 9’ “section— and insert ‘sections 103 and 104’. (a) may”; Amendment 65, page 120, line 14, leave out ‘114’ and (b) at the end of that subsection there is inserted “, but insert ‘114(1), (2) and (4)’. (b) lies only with the leave of the High Court.”’. Amendment 66, page 120, line 17, leave out ‘section 128’ Amendment 58, page 103, line 13, at end insert— and insert ‘sections 128, [Fees for criminal record certificates etc]’. ‘( ) In section 105 of that Act (appeal against discharge at extradition hearing: category 2 territory)— Amendment 67, page 120, line 17, at end insert ‘and (a) in subsection (4), for “section may” there is substituted [Power of community support officer to issue fixed “section— penalty notice for cycle light offence]’. (a) may”; Amendment 68, page 120, line 18, leave out ‘section’ (b) at the end of that subsection there is inserted “, but and insert ‘sections [Credit for time in custody awaiting extradition to United Kingdom to serve sentence] and’. (b) lies only with the leave of the High Court.”’. Amendment 59, page 103, line 20, leave out from Amendment 69, page 120, leave out line 19 and ‘subsection’ to third ‘the’ in line 22 and insert ‘(7) there insert— is inserted— ‘(j) section 144 except subsection (5B); ‘(k) section 146.’. ‘(7A) Where a person gives notice of application for leave to appeal after the end of the permitted period (whether or not the Amendment 105, page 120, line 23, after ‘100’ insert application is for leave to appeal on human rights grounds),”.’. ‘, [Functions of Scottish Ministers under Firearms Acts]’. 643 Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and 15 OCTOBER 2013 Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and 644 Policing Bill Policing Bill Amendment 70, page 120, line 23, at end insert— Schedule 8 ‘() section 114(3);’. Amendment 71, page 120, line 32, at end insert— MINOR AND CONSEQUENTIAL AMENDMENTS ‘() section 114(5);’. Amendment proposed: 96, page 155, line 32, leave out Amendment 139, page 120, line 37, leave out ‘147’ paragraphs 24 to 27.—(Jack Dromey.) and insert ‘[Court and tribunal fees]’. Question put, That the amendment be made. Amendment 72, page 120, line 37, at end insert— The House divided: Ayes 229, Noes 296. ‘( ) Section [Offence of forced marriage: Scotland] extends only to Scotland.’. Division No. 99] [2.45 pm Amendment 73, page 120, line 38, at end insert— AYES ‘(5A) Section 144(5B) has the same extent as section 84 of the Armed Forces Act 2006, and the powers conferred by section 384 Abbott, Ms Diane Denham, rh Mr John of that Act (power to extend Act to the Channel Islands and Abrahams, Debbie Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M. powers to make provisions of that Act apply with modifications Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Donohoe, Mr Brian H. in relation to the Channel Islands, British overseas territories and Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Doran, Mr Frank the Isle of Man) are exercisable in relation to the amendment Ali, Rushanara Dowd, Jim of that Act made by section 144(5B) of this Act.’.— Allen, Mr Graham Dromey, Jack (Damian Green.) Ashworth, Jonathan Dugher, Michael Austin, Ian Durkan, Mark Clause 151 Bailey, Mr Adrian Eagle, Ms Angela Bain, Mr William Eagle, Maria EXTENT Balls, rh Ed Efford, Clive Amendments made: 92, page 120, line 11, at end Barron, rh Mr Kevin Elliott, Julie insert— Beckett, rh Margaret Ellman, Mrs Louise ‘() section [Saving and transitional provision];’. Begg, Dame Anne Engel, Natascha Amendment 93, page 120, line 31, at end insert— Benn, rh Hilary Esterson, Bill ‘() section [Sexual harm prevention orders and sexual risk Berger, Luciana Evans, Chris orders, etc] and Schedule [Amendments of Part 2 of Betts, Mr Clive Farrelly, Paul the Sexual Offences Act 2003];’. Blackman-Woods, Roberta Field, rh Mr Frank Amendment 74, page 121, line 9, at end insert— Blears, rh Hazel Fitzpatrick, Jim Blenkinsop, Tom Flello, Robert ‘() section [Fees for criminal record certificates etc], which Blomfield, Paul Flint, rh Caroline comes into force at the end of the period of 2 months Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Flynn, Paul beginning with that day;’. Brennan, Kevin Fovargue, Yvonne Amendment 75, page 121, line 11, at end insert— Brown, Lyn Francis, Dr Hywel ‘( ) section [Offence of forced marriage: Scotland].’. Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Gardiner, Barry Amendment 76, page 121, line 19, at end insert— Brown, Mr Russell Gilmore, Sheila ‘( ) Section [Offence of forced marriage: Scotland] comes into Bryant, Chris Glass, Pat force on whatever day the Scottish Ministers appoint by order.’. Buck, Ms Karen Goggins, rh Paul Amendment 77, page 121, line 27, at end insert— Burden, Richard Goodman, Helen Burnham, rh Andy Greatrex, Tom ‘( ) The Scottish Ministers may by order make whatever saving, Byrne, rh Mr Liam Greenwood, Lilian transitional or transitory provision they think appropriate in Campbell, Mr Alan Griffith, Nia connection with the coming into force of section [Offence of Campbell, Mr Gregory Gwynne, Andrew forced marriage: Scotland].’. Campbell, Mr Ronnie Hain, rh Mr Peter Amendment 78, page 121, line 27, at end insert— Caton, Martin Hamilton, Mr David ‘( ) An order under this section bringing into force on a Champion, Sarah Hamilton, Fabian particular day a provision which refers to the Police Negotiating Chapman, Jenny Hanson, rh Mr David Board for Scotland may, if it appears to the Secretary of State Clark, Katy Harman, rh Ms Harriet that no body of that name will be in existence on that day, bring Clarke, rh Mr Tom Harris, Mr Tom the provision into force subject to whatever consequential Clwyd, rh Ann Havard, Mr Dai amendment or transitional provision the Secretary of State Coaker, Vernon Healey, rh John thinks appropriate.’.—(Damian Green.) Coffey, Ann Hendrick, Mark Connarty, Michael Hermon, Lady Schedule 6 Cooper, Rosie Heyes, David Cooper, rh Yvette Hillier, Meg POWERS TO SEIZE INVALID PASSPORTS ETC Corbyn, Jeremy Hilling, Julie Amendments made: 79, page 145, line 2, at end insert— Crausby, Mr David Hodge, rh Margaret ( ) may if necessary use reasonable force for the purpose of Creagh, Mary Hodgson, Mrs Sharon exercising a power under this paragraph; Creasy, Stella Hood, Mr Jim ( ) may authorise a person to carry out on the officer’s Cruddas, Jon Hopkins, Kelvin behalf a search under this paragraph.’. Cryer, John Howarth, rh Mr George Amendment 80, page 145, line 29, at end insert— Cunningham, Alex Hunt, Tristram Cunningham, Sir Tony Irranca-Davies, Huw ‘( ) A constable— Curran, Margaret Jackson, Glenda (a) may if necessary use reasonable force for the purpose Dakin, Nic James, Mrs Siân C. of exercising a power under this paragraph; Danczuk, Simon Jamieson, Cathy (b) may authorise a person to carry out on the constable’s Darling, rh Mr Alistair Jarvis, Dan behalf a search under this paragraph.’. David, Wayne Johnson, rh Alan Amendment 81, page 146, line 5, leave out paragraph 5. Davidson, Mr Ian Johnson, Diana —(Damian Green.) De Piero, Gloria Jones, Graham 645 Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and 15 OCTOBER 2013 Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and 646 Policing Bill Policing Bill Jones, Helen Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Bradley, Karen Garnier, Mark Jones, Mr Kevan Reed, Mr Jamie Brady, Mr Graham George, Andrew Jones, Susan Elan Reed, Mr Steve Brake, rh Tom Gibb, Mr Nick Jowell, rh Dame Tessa Reeves, Rachel Bray, Angie Gilbert, Stephen Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Reynolds, Emma Brazier, Mr Julian Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Keeley, Barbara Reynolds, Jonathan Bridgen, Andrew Glen, John Kendall, Liz Riordan, Mrs Linda Brine, Steve Goldsmith, Zac Khan, rh Sadiq Ritchie, Ms Margaret Brokenshire, James Goodwill, Mr Robert Lammy, rh Mr David Robertson, John Brooke, Annette Graham, Richard Lavery, Ian Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Browne, Mr Jeremy Grant, Mrs Helen Lazarowicz, Mark Rotheram, Steve Bruce, Fiona Gray, Mr James Leslie, Chris Roy, Mr Frank Bruce, rh Sir Malcolm Green, rh Damian Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma Roy, Lindsay Buckland, Mr Robert Griffiths, Andrew Lewis, Mr Ivan Ruane, Chris Burley, Mr Aidan Gummer, Ben Long, Naomi Ruddock, rh Dame Joan Burns, Conor Gyimah, Mr Sam Love, Mr Andrew Sarwar, Anas Burns, rh Mr Simon Halfon, Robert Lucas, Ian Sawford, Andy Burrowes, Mr David Hames, Duncan Mactaggart, Fiona Seabeck, Alison Burstow, rh Paul Hammond, Stephen Mahmood, Mr Khalid Shannon, Jim Burt, Lorely Hands, Greg Mahmood, Shabana Sharma, Mr Virendra Byles, Dan Harper, Mr Mark Malhotra, Seema Sheerman, Mr Barry Cairns, Alun Harrington, Richard Mann, John Sheridan, Jim Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Harris, Rebecca Marsden, Mr Gordon Simpson, David Carmichael, Neil Hart, Simon McCabe, Steve Skinner, Mr Dennis Carswell, Mr Douglas Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan McCann, Mr Michael Slaughter, Mr Andy Cash, Mr William Hayes, rh Mr John McCarthy, Kerry Smith, Angela Chishti, Rehman Heald, Oliver McClymont, Gregg Smith, Nick Chope, Mr Christopher Heath, Mr David McCrea, Dr William Smith, Owen Clappison, Mr James Heaton-Harris, Chris McDonald, Andy Spellar, rh Mr John Clark, rh Greg Hemming, John McFadden, rh Mr Pat Stringer, Graham Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Henderson, Gordon McGovern, Alison Stuart, Ms Gisela Coffey, Dr Thérèse Hendry, Charles McGovern, Jim Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Collins, Damian Herbert, rh Nick McKechin, Ann Tami, Mark Colvile, Oliver Hinds, Damian McKenzie, Mr Iain Thornberry, Emily Crabb, Stephen Hoban, Mr Mark McKinnell, Catherine Timms, rh Stephen Crockart, Mike Hollingbery, George Meale, Sir Alan Trickett, Jon Crouch, Tracey Hollobone, Mr Philip Mearns, Ian Turner, Karl Davies, David T. C. Holloway, Mr Adam Miller, Andrew Twigg, Derek (Monmouth) Hopkins, Kris Mitchell, Austin Twigg, Stephen Davies, Glyn Horwood, Martin Moon, Mrs Madeleine Vaz, rh Keith Davies, Philip Howell, John Morden, Jessica Vaz, Valerie Davis, rh Mr David Hughes, rh Simon Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Walley, Joan de Bois, Nick Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Morris, Grahame M. Watson, Mr Tom Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Hunter, Mark (Easington) Watts, Mr Dave Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Huppert, Dr Julian Mudie, Mr George Whitehead, Dr Alan Dorries, Nadine Hurd, Mr Nick Munn, Meg Williams, Hywel Doyle-Price, Jackie Jackson, Mr Stewart Murphy, rh Paul Williamson, Chris Drax, Richard James, Margot Murray, Ian Wilson, Phil Duddridge, James Jenkin, Mr Bernard Nandy, Lisa Wilson, Sammy Dunne, Mr Philip Johnson, Gareth O’Donnell, Fiona Winnick, Mr David Ellis, Michael Johnson, Joseph Ellison, Jane Jones, Andrew Onwurah, Chi Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Osborne, Sandra Ellwood, Mr Tobias Jones, rh Mr David Wright, David Owen, Albert Elphicke, Charlie Jones, Mr Marcus Wright, Mr Iain Perkins, Toby Eustice, George Kawczynski, Daniel Pound, Stephen Tellers for the Ayes: Evans, Graham Kelly, Chris Powell, Lucy Heidi Alexander and Evans, Jonathan Kirby, Simon Qureshi, Yasmin Stephen Doughty Evans, Mr Nigel Knight, rh Mr Greg Evennett, Mr David Kwarteng, Kwasi NOES Fabricant, Michael Laing, Mrs Eleanor Fallon, rh Michael Lamb, Norman Adams, Nigel Bebb, Guto Farron, Tim Lancaster, Mark Afriyie, Adam Bellingham, Mr Henry Featherstone, Lynne Latham, Pauline Aldous, Peter Benyon, Richard Field, Mark Laws, rh Mr David Amess, Mr David Beresford, Sir Paul Foster, rh Mr Don Leadsom, Andrea Andrew, Stuart Berry, Jake Fox,rhDrLiam Lee, Jessica Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Bingham, Andrew Francois, rh Mr Mark Lee, Dr Phillip Bacon, Mr Richard Binley, Mr Brian Freeman, George Leech, Mr John Baker, Norman Blackman, Bob Freer, Mike Lefroy, Jeremy Baker, Steve Blackwood, Nicola Fullbrook, Lorraine Leigh, Sir Edward Baldwin, Harriett Boles, Nick Fuller, Richard Leslie, Charlotte Barclay, Stephen Bone, Mr Peter Gale, Sir Roger Lewis, Brandon Barker, rh Gregory Bottomley, Sir Peter Garnier, Sir Edward Lewis, Dr Julian 647 Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and 15 OCTOBER 2013 Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and 648 Policing Bill Policing Bill Lilley, rh Mr Peter Sandys, Laura ‘Government of Wales Act 2006 (c. 32) Lloyd, Stephen Scott, Mr Lee In Schedule 7 to the Government of Wales Act 2006 (legislative Lord, Jonathan Selous, Andrew competence of Welsh Assembly), in the list of exceptions in Loughton, Tim Shapps, rh Grant paragraph 12, for “Anti-social behaviour orders”there is substituted Luff, Peter Sharma, Alok “Orders to protect people from behaviour that causes or is likely Lumley, Karen Shelbrooke, Alec to cause harassment, alarm or distress”.’. Macleod, Mary Simpson, Mr Keith 94, page 161, line 8, at end insert— Main, Mrs Anne Skidmore, Chris Maude, rh Mr Francis Smith, Miss Chloe Maynard, Paul Smith, Henry ‘PART 1A McCartney, Karl Smith, Julian McIntosh, Miss Anne Smith, Sir Robert AMENDMENTS RELATING TO PART 8A McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Criminal Procedure (Scotland) Act 1995 (c. 46) McPartland, Stephen Spencer, Mr Mark In section 19AA of the Criminal Procedure (Scotland) Act 1995 Menzies, Mark Stanley, rh Sir John (samples etc from sex offenders), in subsection (1)(c), after “an Mercer, Patrick Stephenson, Andrew order under section” there is inserted “122A or”. Metcalfe, Stephen Stevenson, John In section 19AB of that Act (supplementary provision in risk of Milton, Anne Stewart, Bob sexual harm order cases), in subsection (7), at the end of the Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Stewart, Iain definition of “risk of sexual harm order” there is inserted— Moore, rh Michael Streeter, Mr Gary Mordaunt, Penny Stride, Mel “and also includes an order under section 122A of the 2003 Act (sexual risk orders);”. Morgan, Nicky Stuart, Mr Graham Morris, Anne Marie Stunell, rh Sir Andrew Police Act 1997 (c. 50) Morris, James Sturdy, Julian (1) Section 113CA of the Police Act 1997 (suitability Mosley, Stephen Swales, Ian information relating to children) is amended as follows. Mowat, David Swayne, rh Mr Desmond (2) After paragraph (f) of subsection (2) there is inserted— Mulholland, Greg Syms, Mr Robert “(fa) if a sexual harm prevention order, made under Munt, Tessa Thornton, Mike section 103A of the Sexual Offences Act 2003, is in Murray, Sheryll Thurso, John effect in respect of the applicant— Newmark, Mr Brooks Timpson, Mr Edward (i) the prohibitions described in that order; Newton, Sarah Tomlinson, Justin (ii) the date of that order; Nokes, Caroline Tredinnick, David (iii) the period for which the prohibitions have effect by Norman, Jesse Truss, Elizabeth virtue of section 103C(2) or 103D(1) of that Act; Nuttall, Mr David Turner, Mr Andrew (iv) details as to whether the order has been varied or O’Brien, rh Mr Stephen Tyrie, Mr Andrew renewed under section 103E(5) of that Act; Offord, Dr Matthew Uppal, Paul Ollerenshaw, Eric (fb) if an interim sexual harm prevention order, made Vaizey, Mr Edward under section 103F of the Sexual Offences Act 2003, Opperman, Guy Vara, Mr Shailesh is in effect in respect of the applicant— Ottaway, rh Richard Vickers, Martin (i) the prohibitions described in that order; Paice, rh Sir James Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Parish, Neil (ii) the date of that order; Walker, Mr Charles Patel, Priti (iii) the period for which that order has effect by virtue Walker, Mr Robin Paterson, rh Mr Owen of section 103F(4) of that Act; Walter, Mr Robert Pawsey, Mark (iv) details as to whether the order has been varied or Ward, Mr David Penrose, John renewed under section 103F(5) of that Act;”. Perry, Claire Watkinson, Dame Angela (2) After paragraph (i) of that subsection there is inserted— Weatherley, Mike Phillips, Stephen “(ia) if a sexual risk order, made under section 122A of Pickles, rh Mr Eric Webb, Steve the Sexual Offences Act 2003, is in effect in respect of Pincher, Christopher Wharton, James the applicant— Poulter, Dr Daniel Wheeler, Heather (i) the prohibitions described in that order; Prisk, Mr Mark White, Chris (ii) the date of that order; Whittaker, Craig Pugh, John (iii) the period for which the prohibitions have effect by Raab, Mr Dominic Whittingdale, Mr John virtue of section 122A(7) or 122C(1) of that Act; Randall, rh Mr John Wiggin, Bill (iv) details as to whether the order has been varied or Reckless, Mark Williams, Roger renewed under section 122D(4) of that Act; Redwood, rh Mr John Williams, Stephen Rees-Mogg, Jacob (ib) if an interim sexual risk order, made under section Williamson, Gavin 122E of the Sexual Offences Act 2003, is in effect in Reevell, Simon Wilson, Mr Rob respect of the applicant— Reid, Mr Alan Wollaston, Dr Sarah Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm (i) the prohibitions described in that order; Wright, Jeremy (ii) the date of that order; Rogerson, Dan Wright, Simon Rosindell, Andrew (iii) the period for which that order has effect by virtue Young, rh Sir George Rudd, Amber of section 122E(4) of that Act; Zahawi, Nadhim Ruffley, Mr David (iv) details as to whether the order has been varied or Russell, Sir Bob Tellers for the Noes: renewed under section 122E(5) of that Act;”. Rutley, David Gavin Barwell and (1) Section 113CB of that Act (suitability information relating Sanders, Mr Adrian Jenny Willott to protected adults) is amended as follows. (2) After paragraph (f) of subsection (2) there is inserted— Question accordingly negatived. “(fa) if a sexual harm prevention order, made under section 103A of the Sexual Offences Act 2003, is in Amendments made: 82, in schedule 8, page 158, line 20, effect in respect of the applicant— at end insert— (i) the prohibitions described in that order; 649 Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and 15 OCTOBER 2013 Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and 650 Policing Bill Policing Bill (ii) the date of that order; (2) For the heading there is substituted “Appeals in relation to (iii) the period for which the prohibitions have effect by SOPOs and interim SOPOs: Northern Ireland”. virtue of section 103C(2) or 103D(1) of that Act; (3) In subsections (1)(c), (2) and (3)(b), for “the Crown Court” (iv) details as to whether the order has been varied or there is substituted “a county court”. renewed under section 103E(5) of that Act; (4) In subsection (4), for “the Crown Court” there is (fb) if an interim sexual harm prevention order, made substituted “the county court”. under section 103F of the Sexual Offences Act 2003, is in effect in respect of the applicant— (5) For subsection (5) there is substituted— (i) the prohibitions described in that order; “(5) Any order made by a county court on an appeal under (ii) the date of that order; subsection (1)(c) or (2) (other than an order directing that an application be re-heard by a court of summary jurisdiction) is for (iii) the period for which that order has effect by virtue the purposes of section 108(7) or 109(6) (respectively) to be of section 103F(4) of that Act; treated as if it were an order of the court from which the appeal (iv) details as to whether the order has been varied or was brought (and not an order of the county court).” renewed under section 103F(5) of that Act;”. (1) Section 113 of that Act (offence: breach of SOPO or (2) After paragraph (i) of that subsection there is inserted— interim SOPO) is amended as follows. “(ia) if a sexual risk order, made under section 122A of (2) In the heading, at the end there is inserted “etc”. the Sexual Offences Act 2003, is in effect in respect of the applicant— (3) In subsection (1), in paragraph (d) the words “2, 2A or” (i) the prohibitions described in that order; and “in England and Wales and” are omitted. (ii) the date of that order; (4) After that subsection there is inserted— (iii) the period for which the prohibitions have effect by “(1A) A person commits an offence if, without reasonable virtue of section 122A(7) or 122C(1) of that Act; excuse, he contravenes a prohibition imposed by— (iv) details as to whether the order has been varied or (a) a sexual harm prevention order, or renewed under section 122D(4) of that Act; (b) an interim sexual harm prevention order, (ib) if an interim sexual risk order, made under section 122E of the Sexual Offences Act 2003, is in effect in other than a prohibition on foreign travel.” respect of the applicant— In the cross-heading before section 114 of that Act (foreign travel (i) the prohibitions described in that order; orders: applications and grounds), after “orders” there is inserted (ii) the date of that order; “(Scotland and Northern Ireland)”. (iii) the period for which that order has effect by virtue (1) Section 117A of that Act (foreign travel orders: surrender of section 122E(4) of that Act; of passports) is amended as follows. (iv) details as to whether the order has been varied or (2) For the heading there is substituted “Surrender of renewed under section 122E(5) of that Act;”. passports: Northern Ireland”. Crime and Disorder Act 1998 (c. 37) (3) In subsection (2), after “at a police station” there is inserted (1) Section 8 of the Crime and Disorder Act 1998 (parenting “in Northern Ireland”. orders) is amended as follows. (4) In subsection (3), at the end there is inserted “(unless the (2) For “sexual offences prevention order” there is substituted person is subject to an equivalent prohibition under another “sexual harm prevention order”— order)”. (a) in subsection (1)(b); In section 117B of that Act (surrender of passports: Scotland), at (b) in subsection (6)(a). the end of subsection (3) there is inserted “(unless the person is subject to an equivalent prohibition under another order)”. (3) For subsection (9) there is substituted— (1) Section 119 of that Act (foreign travel orders: appeals) is “(9) In this section ‘sexual harm prevention order’ means an amended as follows. order under section 103A of the Sexual Offences Act 2003 (sexual harm prevention orders).” (2) For the heading there is substituted “Appeals in relation to foreign travel orders: Northern Ireland”. Sexual Offences Act 2003 (c. 42) (3) In subsection (1), for “the Crown Court” there is In section 88 of the Sexual Offences Act 2003 (section 87: substituted “a county court”. interpretation), in subsection (4)(c), after “interim notification order,” there is inserted “sexual harm prevention order, interim (4) In subsection (2), for “the Crown Court” there is sexual harm prevention order,”. substituted “the county court”. In section 89 of that Act (young offenders: parental directions), (5) For subsection (3) there is substituted— in the Table in subsection (1), after “interim notification order,” “(3) Any order made by a county court on an appeal under there is inserted “sexual harm prevention order, interim sexual subsection (1)(a) (other than an order directing that an application harm prevention order,”. be re-heard by a court of summary jurisdiction) is for the purposes In section 91A of that Act (review of indefinite notification of section 118(5) to be treated as if it were an order of the court requirements: qualifying young offender), in subsection (2)(b), from which the appeal was brought (and not an order of the after “not subject to” there is inserted “a sexual harm prevention county court).” order under section 103A, an interim sexual harm prevention (1) Section 122 (offence: breach of foreign travel order) is order under section 103F,”. amended as follows. In the cross-heading before section 104 of that Act (sexual (2) In the heading, at the end there is inserted “etc”. offences prevention orders: application and grounds), after (3) In subsection (1)— “orders” there is inserted “(Scotland and Northern Ireland)”. (a) for “excuse, he” there is substituted “excuse— In section 108 of that Act (SOPOs: variations, renewals and discharges), in subsection (8)(b) the words “2 or” and “England (a) he”; and Wales or” are omitted. (b) at the end there is inserted “, or In section 109 of that Act (interim SOPOs), in subsection (7)(a) (b) he contravenes a prohibition on foreign travel imposed the words “2A or” and “England and Wales or” are omitted. by a sexual harm prevention order.” (1) Section 110 of that Act (SOPO and interim SOPOs: (4) In subsection (1B)(a) the words “England and Wales and” appeals) is amended as follows. are omitted. 651 Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and 15 OCTOBER 2013 Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and 652 Policing Bill Policing Bill In the cross-heading before section 123 of that Act, after “orders” (f) an order under section 5 of that Act (interim risk of there is inserted “(Northern Ireland)”. sexual harm orders in Scotland), (1) Section 123 of that Act (risk of sexual harm orders: commits an offence.” application, grounds and effect) is amended as follows. (1) Section 129 (effect of conviction etc of an offence under (2) In subsection (1)— section 128) is amended as follows. (a) for “A chief officer of police” there is substituted “The (2) In the heading, after “section 128” there is inserted “etc” Chief Constable of the Police Service of Northern (3) In subsection (1A)(a), after “an offence under section” Ireland”; there is inserted “122H or”. (b) for “a magistrates’ court” there is substituted “a court (4) For subsection (5) there is substituted— of summary jurisdiction”; (c) for “his police area” (in both places) there is “(5) In this section ‘relevant order’ means— substituted “Northern Ireland”; (a) where the conviction, finding or caution within (d) for “the chief officer” (in both places) there is subsection (1) is in respect of a breach of a risk of substituted “the Chief Constable”. sexual harm order or a sexual risk order, that order; (b) where the conviction, finding or caution within subsection (3) Subsection (2) is repealed. (1) is in respect of a breach of an interim risk of (1) Section 125 (RSHOs: variation, renewals and discharges) is sexual harm order or an interim sexual risk order, any amended as follows. risk of sexual harm order or sexual risk order made (2) In subsection (2), for paragraphs (b) to (d) there is on the hearing of the application to which the interim substituted— order relates or, if no such order is made, the interim order. “(b) the Chief Constable of the Police Service of Northern Ireland.” (6) In subsection (5)— (3) In subsection (3), for “and (if they wish to be heard) the ‘risk of sexual harm order’ includes an order under other persons mentioned in subsection (2)” there is substituted section 2 of the Protection of Children and Prevention “, and the other person mentioned in subsection (2) (if that of Sexual Offences (Scotland) Act 2005; person wishes to be heard)”. “interim risk of sexual harm order’ includes an order under section 5 of that Act.” (4) In subsection (5), for the words after “without the consent of the defendant and” there is substituted “the Chief Constable (1) Section 133 of that Act (Part 2: general interpretation) is of the Police Service of Northern Ireland”. amended as follows. (5) In subsection (7), for paragraphs (b) and (c) there is (2) In subsection (1), at the appropriate places there is inserted— inserted— “(b) a court of summary jurisdiction for the petty sessions “‘Interim sexual harm prevention order’ has the district which includes the area where the defendant meaning given by section 103F(2);”; resides; “‘interim sexual risk order’ has the meaning given by (c) where the application is made by the Chief Constable section 122E(2);”; of the Police Service of Northern Ireland, any court “‘prohibition on foreign travel’ has the meaning given of summary jurisdiction.” by section 103D(2) or 122C(2);”; In section 126 (interim RSHOs), in subsection (2)(b), for “the “‘sexual harm prevention order’ has the meaning given person who has made that application” there is substituted “the by section 103A(1);”; Chief Constable of the Police Service of Northern Ireland”. “‘sexual risk order’ has the meaning given by section (1) Section 127 (RSHOs and interim RSHOs) is amended as 122A(1);”. follows. In section 136 of that Act (Part 2: Northern Ireland), for (2) In subsection (1), for “the Crown Court” there is subsection (8) there is substituted— substituted “a county court”. “(8) The reference in section 101 to the Crown Court is to be (3) In subsection (2), for “the Crown Court” there is read as a reference to a county court.” substituted “the county court”. Protection of Children and Prevention of Sexual Offences (4) For subsection (3) there is substituted— (Scotland) Act 2005 (asp 9) “(3) Any order made by a county court on an appeal under (1) Section 7 of the Protection of Children and Prevention of subsection (1)(a) or (b) (other than an order directing that an Sexual Offences (Scotland) Act 2005 (offence: breach of RSHO application be re-heard by a court of summary jurisdiction) is for or interim RSHO) is amended as follows. the purposes of section 125(7) or 126(5) (respectively) to be (2) In the heading, after “interim RSHO” there is inserted treated as if it were an order of the court from which the appeal “etc”. was brought (and not an order of the county court).” (3) In subsection (2), after “an order made under” there is (1) Section 128 (offence: breach of RSHO or interim RSHO) inserted “section 122A or 122E or”. is amended as follows. (1) Section 8 of that Act (effect of conviction etc under (2) In the heading, after “interim RSHO” there is inserted section 7 of that Act or section 128 of the Sexual Offences “etc”. Act 2003) is amended as follows. (3) For subsections (1) and (1A) there is substituted— (2) In the heading, after “or section” there is inserted “122H “(1) A person who, without reasonable excuse, does anything or”. that the person is prohibited from doing by— (3) In subsection (1)(a), for the words after “an offence under (a) a risk of sexual harm order, section 7 above” there is substituted “, section 122H of the 2003 Act (breach of sexual risk order or interim sexual risk order in (b) an interim risk of sexual harm order, England and Wales) or section 128 of that Act (breach of risk of (c) a sexual risk order, sexual harm order or interim risk of sexual harm order in (d) an interim sexual risk order, Northern Ireland)”. (e) an order under section 2 of the Protection of Children (4) In subsection (1)(b), after “an offence under section” there and Prevention of Sexual Offences (Scotland) is inserted “122H or”. Act 2005 (risk of sexual harm orders in Scotland), or (5) In the definition of “relevant order” in subsection (5)— 653 Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and 15 OCTOBER 2013 Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and 654 Policing Bill Policing Bill (a) in paragraph (a), for “section 123” there is substituted (2) In subsection (4), for the words before ‘is 14 days’ there is “an order under section 122A or section 123”; substituted ‘Notice of application for leave to appeal under this (b) in paragraph (b), after “a breach of” there is inserted section must be given— “a sexual risk order under section 122A of the 2003 (a) in accordance with rules of court, and Act or”; (a) subject to subsections (5) and (7A), before the end of (c) for paragraphs (c) and (d) there is substituted— the permitted period, which’. “(c) where the conviction or finding referred to in (3) In subsection (5)— subsection (1)(a), (c) or (d) above is in respect of a (a) for ‘But notice of an appeal’ there is substituted breach of an interim risk of sexual harm order under ‘Notice of application for leave to appeal’ section 5 above or an interim order under section 122E or 126 of the 2003 Act— (b) after ‘if it is an’ there is inserted ‘application for leave to’. (i) any risk of sexual harm order or sexual risk order made upon the application to which the interim (4) In subsection (6), for the words before ‘before the person is order relates; or extradited’ there is substituted ‘Notice of application for leave to appeal on human rights grounds given after the end of the (ii) if no risk of sexual harm order or sexual risk order permitted period must be given’. has been made, the interim order; (5) In subsection (7)— (d) where the caution referred to in subsection (1)(b) above (a) for ‘notice of an appeal’ there is substituted ‘notice of is in respect of a breach of an interim order under application for leave to appeal’; section 122E or 126 of the 2003 Act— (b) for ‘consider the appeal’ there is substituted ‘grant (i) any order under section 122A or 123 of that Act leave’; made upon the application to which the interim order relates; or (c) for ‘to consider the appeal’ there is substituted ‘for the appeal to be heard’. (ii) if no order under section 122A or 123 of that Act has been made, the interim order.” (6) In subsection (8), for ‘“appeal on human rights grounds” means an appeal’ there is substituted ‘“to appeal on human Violent Crime Reduction Act 2006 (c. 38) rights grounds” means to appeal’.” In section 56 of the Violent Crime Reduction Act 2006 90, page 165, line 26, at end insert— (cross-border provisions relating to sexual offences), subsection (2) is repealed. In section 110 of that Act (appeal against discharge by Secretary of State), in subsection (5), for “Notice of an appeal” 83, page 161, line 36, at end insert— there is substituted “Notice of application for leave to appeal”.’. “Police Act 1997 (c. 50) 91, page 166, line 33, at end insert— In section 137 of the Police Act 1997 (extent), in subsection (2) (provisions extending to England and Wales only), after ‘PART 4 ‘sections’ in paragraph (e) there is inserted ‘125(1A),’.” 84, page 163, line 35, at end insert— AMENDMENTS CONSEQUENTIAL ON ESTABLISHMENT OF “Police and Fire Reform (Scotland) Act 2012 (Consequential POLICE SERVICE OF SCOTLAND Provisions and Modifications) Order 2013 (S.I. 2013/602) Terrorism Act 2000 (c. 11) In article 14 of the Police and Fire Reform (Scotland) Act 2012 (Consequential Provisions and Modifications) Order 2013 (1) Schedule 8 to the Terrorism Act 2000 (detention) is (pensions: special constables and police cadets), in paragraph (2), amended as follows. for ‘the Police Negotiating Board for the United Kingdom’ there (2) In paragraph 20B(10), for paragraph (b) of the definition is substituted ‘the Police Negotiating Board for Scotland’.” of “a specified chief officer of police” there is substituted— 85, page 164, line 4, leave out ‘The’ and insert ‘In the (b) the chief constable of the Police Service of Scotland, Schedule, the’. where— 86, page 164, line 32, at end insert— (i) the person who provided the material, or from whom it was taken, resides in Scotland, or

‘Police and Fire Reform In Schedule 1, paragraph 5(4) (ii) the chief constable believes that the person is in, or (Scotland) Act 2012 to (6).’. is intending to come to, Scotland.” (Consequential Provisions (3) In paragraph 20J— and Modifications) (a) for paragraphs (d) and (e) of the definition of “police Order 2013 (S.I. 2013/602) force” there is substituted— 87, page 165, line 4, at end insert— (d) the Police Service of Scotland; “In section 28 of that Act (appeal against discharge at (e) the Scottish Police Authority;”; extradition hearing: category 1 territory), in subsection (5), for (b) in the second of the three definitions of “responsible ‘Notice of an appeal’ there is substituted ‘Notice of application chief officer of police”, for the words after “the chief for leave to appeal’.” constable of” there is substituted “the Police Service 88, page 165, line 23, at end insert— of Scotland”. “In section 105 of that Act (appeal against discharge at Counter-Terrorism Act 2008 (c. 28) extradition hearing: category 2 territory), in subsection (5), for In section 18D of the Counter-Terrorism Act 2008 (use of retained ‘Notice of an appeal’ there is substituted ‘Notice of application material), in subsection (2) for “the Scottish Police Services for leave to appeal’.” Authority” there is substituted “the Scottish Police Authority”. 89, page 165, line 24, leave out paragraph 74 and In section 18E(1) of that Act (interpretation of sections 18 to insert— 18E), for paragraph (d) of the definition of “police force” there is substituted— “74 (1) Section 108 of that Act (appeal against extradition order: category 2 territory) is amended as follows. (d) the Police Service of Scotland;”.’.—(Mr Harper.) 655 Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and 15 OCTOBER 2013 Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and 656 Policing Bill Policing Bill New Clause 3 (a) states that the authorised officer is of that belief; (b) specifies the maximum number of dogs which, in the DOG CONTROL NOTICES opinion of the authorised officer, are capable of being (1) Where an authorised officer has reasonable cause to believe kept in the domestic property such as to sufficiently that a dog is not under sufficient control and requires greater reduce the risk; control in any place, as a preventative measure to protect the (c) requires the person in charge to reduce the number of public, the dog itself, or another protected animal, he or she may dogs kept in the domestic property to no more than serve on the owner, and if different, person for the time being in the number specified under paragraph (b) and; charge of the dog a written control notice which— (d) specifies the date by which the terms of the control (a) states that he or she is of that belief; notice must be complied with. (b) specifies the respects in which he or she believes the (3) A control notice may be served on more than one person in owner, and if different, the person for the time being respect of one domestic property. in charge of the dog is failing to keep the dog under sufficient control; (4) It is an offence for a person without reasonable excuse to (c) specifies the steps he or she requires the owner, and if fail to comply with a requirement under subsection (2). different, the person for the time being in charge of (5) A person guilty of an offence under this section is liable on the dog to take in order to comply with the notice; summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level 3 on the (d) specifies the date by which the terms of the notice must standard scale. be complied with; and (6) An authorised officer may make a complaint to a (e) specifies the date that the notice expires which will not Magistrates’ Court if a person in charge fails, to the satisfaction be for a period which exceeds six months. of the authorised officer, to comply with the steps required in a (2) In a control notice pursuant to subsection (1)(c) an control notice within the time period specified. authorised officer must require a dog to be microchipped (if not (7) A Magistrates’ Court receiving a complaint under already done) and the owner, and if different, the person for the subsection (6) shall, if it finds that the person in charge has failed time being in charge of the dog, register the dog with a microchip to comply with the steps required in a control notice, make an database, and may require the following steps, where appropriate, order in a summary way directing any of the dogs kept in the but not limited to— domestic property to be destroyed. (a) keeping the dog muzzled as directed; (8) In this section— (b) keeping the dog on a lead when in public or under “authorised officer” means a person appointed by a control as directed; local authority within whose area the domestic (c) requiring the owner, and if different, the person for the property is situated for the purposes of this section; time being in charge of the dog, to seek and implement expert advice about training and behaviour for the “domestic property” means a building, or part of a dog; building, that is a dwelling or is forces accommodation (or both); (d) having the dog neutered where appropriate; and “person in charge” means the owner or owners, and if (e) keeping the dog away from particular places or different, person or persons for the time being in persons. charge of the dogs. (3) Failure to comply with the steps required in a control notice within the time period specified, to the satisfaction of the New clause 17—Community protection notices (dogs)— authorised officer may lead to a complaint to a magistrates’ court (1) An authorised person may issue a community protection under section 2 of the Dogs Act 1871. notice (dogs) to the owner or person for the time being in control (4) The provisions of section 2 of the Dogs Act 1871 shall have of the dog if they have reasonable cause to believe that— effect if the owner, and if different, the person for the time being (a) the dog is not under sufficient control, and in charge of a dog fails to comply with the steps required in a control notice within the time period specified in accordance (b) preventative measures are required to protect the with subsection (3) above as they would apply if a dog was public, the dog itself, or another protected animal. dangerous and not kept under proper control. (2) An “authorised person” means a police officer, local (5) An “authorised officer” is a person that has been appointed authority dog warden, or other authorised person. by the local authority or police for the purposes of this Act. (3) A community protection notice (dogs) is a notice that (6) A “protected animal” is one that is commonly imposes any of the following requirements on the owner or domesticated in the British Islands, is under the control of man person for the time being in control of the dog— whether on a permanent or temporary basis, or is not living in a (a) a requirement to have the dog microchipped; wild state.—(Mr Reed.) (b) a requirement to obtain third party liability insurance; Brought up, and read the First time. (c) a requirement for the dog to be kept on a leash in public; Mr Steve Reed (Croydon North) (Lab): I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time. (d) a requirement for the dog to be muzzled in public; (e) a requirement for the transferring or relinquishing of Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): With this ownership of the dog without notifying the enforcing it will be convenient to discuss the following: authority. New clause 6—Dog number control notice— (4) A community protection notice may be issued— (1) This section applies where more than one dog is being kept (a) without notice, and in a domestic property in England or Wales. (b) with immediate effect. (2) Where an authorised officer has reasonable cause to believe (5) A person issued with a community protection notice (dogs) that the number of dogs being kept in a domestic property gives who fails to comply with it commits an offence. rise to a risk that any one or more of the dogs may become dangerously out of control while in or partly in the domestic (6) A person guilty of an offence under subsection (5) is liable property (“the risk”), he or she may serve on the person in charge on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level 4 on the a written control notice which— standard scale. 657 Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and 15 OCTOBER 2013 Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and 658 Policing Bill Policing Bill New clause 18—Requirement to fit a post box guard (6) A “protected animal” is one that is commonly domesticated where a dog is present— in the British Islands, is under the control of man whether on a permanent or temporary basis, or is not living in wild state. (1) The Secretary of State shall bring forward regulations to require householders to fit a guard to their letterbox if— (7) A person served with a dog control notice may appeal (a) the householder owns a dog, against the notice to a magistrates’ court within the period of 14 days beginning with the date on which that person was served (b) the dog is kept in residential premises to which the with the notice. letterbox is fitted, (c) the letterbox opens directly into those premises, and (8) The grounds on which a person served such a notice may appeal are one or more of the following— (d) a person may reasonably conclude that there is the possibility of the dog causing harm to someone using (a) that the notice contains required steps which are the letterbox. unreasonable in character, or extent, or are unnecessary; (2) Regulations made under subsection (1) shall include or provision in respect of— (b) that there has been some defect or error in, or in (a) the size and style of the guard to be fitted, and connection with, the notice. (b) the householder to be liable to a civil penalty for any (9) On hearing of the appeal the court may— harm caused as a result of failing to comply with this (a) quash the dog control notice to which the appeal requirement. relates; or (3) Regulations under this section— (b) vary the notice in such a manner as it thinks fit; or (a) shall be made by statutory instrument, and (b) may not be made unless a draft has been laid before (c) dismiss the appeal. and approved by a resolution of each House of New clause 29—Improving the welfare of seized dogs— Parliament. (1) Where an expert examination is required for a dog that is New clause 19—Written control notice— alleged to be one to which section 1 of the Dangerous Dogs (1) Where an authorised officer has reasonable cause to believe Act 1991 applies that examination must be carried out and that a dog is not under sufficient control and requires greater completed by both the defence and prosecution within 28 days of control in any place, as a preventative measure to protect the seizure of the dog and a written report produced within one week public, the dog itself, or another protected animal, he or she may of the examination. serve on the owner, and, if different, person for the time being in (2) If the prosecution or defence fail to carry out the charge of the dog a written control notice which— examination as described in subsection 1 within the requisite (a) states that he or she is of that belief; period the prosecution or defence, as the case may be, may not (b) specifies the respects in which he or she believes the rely in evidence on any expert report involving an examination of owner, and if different, the person for the time being that dog after the 28 day period unless the Court extends this in charge of the dog is failing to keep the dog under period. sufficient control; (3) In considering any application to extend the examination (c) specifies the steps he or she requires the owner, and if period the Court must take into account the welfare of the dog, different, the person for the time being in charge of the costs of kennelling the dog and any other relevant matters. the dog to take in order to comply with the notice. New clause 30—Rehoming of prohibited types of dog— (d) specifies the date by which the terms of the notice must be complied with; and (1) The Dangerous Dogs Act 1991 is amended as follows. (e) specifies the date that the notice expires which will not (2) In section 4B(1)(b) (Destruction orders otherwise than on a be for a period which exceeds six months. conviction) after the first “owner” there is inserted “or prospective (2) In a control notice pursuant to subsection (1)(c) an owner”, and after the second “owner” there is inserted “or authorised officer must require a dog to be microchipped (if not prospective owner”. already done) and the owner, and if different, the person for the Amendment 143, in clause 98, page 69, line 43, leave time being in charge of the dog, register the dog with a microchip out subsection 2(a). database, and may require the following steps, where appropriate, but not limited to— Amendment 140, page 70, leave out line 3 and insert— (a) keeping the dog muzzled as directed; (ii) for “injures any person” there is substituted (b) keeping the dog on a lead when in public or under “injures or kills any person or assistance dog”.’. control as directed; Amendment 144, page 70, line 6, after ‘householder’, (c) requiring the owner, and if different, the person for the add ‘or business’. time being in charge of the dog, to seek and implement Amendment 145, page 70, line 7, after ‘householder’, expert advice about training and behaviour for the dog; add ‘or business’. (d) having the dog neutered where appropriate; and Amendment 146, page 70, line 11, after ‘(or is both)’, (e) keeping the dog away from particular places or add ‘or in premises used partially or wholly for business persons. purposes’. (3) Failure to comply with the steps required in a control Amendment 147, page 70, line 17, at end insert— notice within the time period specified, to the satisfaction of the (iii) D (if not present at any time) could have reasonably authorised officer may lead to a complaint to a magistrates’ court believed V to be in, or entering the building or part under section 2 of the Dogs Act 1871. as a trespasser if they had been present.’. (4) The provisions of section 2 of the Dogs Act 1871 shall have Amendment 134, page 70, line 23, at end insert— effect if the owner, and if different, the person for the time being in charge of a dog fails to comply with the steps required in a ‘(1C) A person (“D”) is not guilty of an offence under subsection control notice within the time period specified in accordance (1) in a case where they, or an associated person, are being with subsection (3) above as they would apply if a dog was attacked by another person or another dog at the relevant time. dangerous and not kept under proper control. (1D) A person (“D”) is not guilty of an offence under subsection (1) (5) An “authorised officer” is a person that has been appointed if they are a vet or someone working in a veterinary practice at by the local authority or police for the purposes of this Act. the relevant time. 659 Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and 15 OCTOBER 2013 Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and 660 Policing Bill Policing Bill (1E) A person (“D”) is not guilty of an offence under “7A Fit and proper person code of practice subsection (1) if they themselves are the victim of any incident involving their dog. (1) The Secretary of State must prepare a draft code of practice giving guidance about the matters to be considered when (1F) A person (“D”) is not guilty of an offence under determining whether someone is a fit and proper person for the subsection (1) if they are in charge of a dog they are removing in purposes of sections 1, 4 and 4B. connection with their work. (2) The Secretary of State must lay before Parliament— (1G) A person (“D”) is not guilty of an offence under subsection (1) if they are in charge of a dog they are required to (a) any draft code of practice prepared under this section; maintain in any police or court proceedings or if they are and assisting the courts as a witness (expert or otherwise). (1H) A person (“D”) is not guilty of an offence under (b) an order to be made by statutory instrument providing subsection (1) if they are in charge of a dog that they are for the code to come into force, subject to authorised or required to look after in connection with their subsection (4). work. (3) Before preparing such a draft code, the Secretary of State (1I) A person (“D”) is not guilty of an offence under must consult such persons as the Secretary of State thinks subsection (1) if they are in charge of a dog they are looking appropriate. after by virtue of the dog being in their kennels. (4) Where a draft is laid before Parliament under subsection (2)(a), (1J) A person (“D”) is not guilty of an offence under if neither House passes a resolution disapproving the draft within subsection (1) if the dog is a police dog or a dog being used in an 40 days— official capacity to assist with their work. (1K) A person (“D”) is not guilty of an offence under (a) the Secretary of State may issue the code in the form of subsection (1) if the dog is an assistance dog. the draft; and (1L) A person (“D”) is not guilty of an offence under (b) it shall come into force in accordance with provision subsection (1) if they are registered blind. made under subsection (2)(b).”.’. (1M) A person (“D”) is not guilty of the aggravated offence under subsection (1) if, as a result of any disability, they were not Mr Reed: It is a pleasure to speak in this debate and able to physically prevent the offence. to move this new clause, which stands in the names of (1N) A person (“D”) is not guilty of the aggravated offence my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Wavertree under subsection (1) unless they encouraged the dog in its (Luciana Berger) and my right hon. Friend the Member actions.’. for Oxford East (Mr Smith). Amendment 133, page 70, line 28, at end insert— Dangerous dogs, or, perhaps more accurately, ‘(2A) If an owner of a dog, and if different the person for the irresponsible dog owners, are a serious public threat. time being in charge of a dog unreasonably omits to keep the Not only do we have a duty to act, but there is widespread dog under proper control, or if he causes, or encourages the dog agreement on what form that action should take. I to attack a protected animal, and any of those things lead to the regret to say that the Government are the only ones injury or death of a protected animal he shall be guilty of an standing meekly on the sidelines, refusing to take the offence. necessary action. Having failed to lead from the start (2B) A “protected animal” has the same meaning as in with this Bill, the Government refused to act in Committee, section 2 of the Animal Welfare Act 2006.’. despite the support of their own Back Benchers for Amendment 141, page 70, line 28, at end insert— such action, but I hope, with a new Minister in place, there will be a fresh approach and a chance to move (iii) for “two years” there is substituted “fourteen years”.’. forward and tackle this menace. Amendment 142, page 70, line 28, at end insert— I want to start by speaking to amendment 141, which was tabled by the hon. Member for Bedford (Richard ‘(1C) In proceedings for an offence under section 3(1) it shall Fuller). I have strong sympathy with the case he is be a defence for the accused to prove that he took reasonable steps to prevent the dog being dangerously out of control.’. making, and which he made in Committee, for a much stronger punishment for irresponsible dog owners who Amendment 135, page 70, line 41, at end insert— allow their dogs to maim and kill. We were deeply ‘(1B) Anyone authorised to seize a dog under subsection 1A is disappointed, however, that the Government failed to exempted from the provisions of the Dangerous Dogs Act 1991.’. meet their own promise, made in an open Committee, Amendment 98, page 70, leave out lines 45 and 46 to publish the findings of a consultation on what level and insert of sentencing would be appropriate in such cases before the Bill returned to the Chamber. ‘for the purposes of this Act, “assistance dog” means a dog which has been accredited to assist a disabled person by a As it was, the Minister wrote to members of the prescribed charity or other organisation.’. Committee last Friday, after the tabling deadline. An Amendment 97, page 70, line 46, at end insert e-mail was sent at 5.50 in the evening, stating that the Government had not had time to review the consultation ‘“dwelling”, for the purposes of section 3, includes enclosed buildings within the curtilage of the dwelling and associated with responses, and that therefore no Government amendment it, where a person might reasonably expect to find a dog, such as would be put before the House. It was in good faith that garages, sheds and other outbuildings;’. the Opposition did not table an amendment, as we Amendment 132, page 70, line 47, leave out believed his predecessor’s word that the consultation subsection (6)(b). would result in a Government amendment. Announcing that he would not do anything after the tabling deadline Amendment 99, in clause 99, page 71, line 33, at end was not a welcome start to the Minister’s tenure in the add—. Home Office. I hope that we will not see a repeat of ‘(5) After section 7 there is inserted— those tactics. 661 Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and 15 OCTOBER 2013 Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and 662 Policing Bill Policing Bill 3pm Dog control notices are not punitive. They provide a menu of options that local authorities and the police Richard Fuller (Bedford) (Con): Does the hon. Gentleman can use to act in the interests of their local communities agree that the families and loved ones of victims who against dangerous dogs and irresponsible owners. have been injured or killed by out-of-control dogs will be very disappointed that their representatives in this Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab): I commend my House will not be able to vote on the precise measures hon. Friend and those who tabled new clause 3, which and changes that are required to increase the sentences would improve the Bill. May I also commend to him for such actions? and other hon. Members new clause 17, which was tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge (Angela Smith)? It would dovetail Mr Reed: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his nicely with new clause 3 and would allow the notices to intervention. I have read the comments that he made in be published there and then at the point when they are Committee and sympathise with his views. I hope to needed, rather than waiting for an attack to take place. address them further in my comments. The Opposition supported increasing the guideline Mr Reed: I thank my hon. Friend, who has an abiding prison terms for manslaughter under the Dangerous interest in this issue, for that most helpful intervention. Dogs Act 1991 in Committee. We continue to support I will seek to address his point further in my comments. an increase, although we would prefer to have the Dog control notices include the following measures: consultation response before the House so that an informed requiring a potentially dangerous dog to be muzzled decision can be made. Our starting point is that the whenever it is in a public place; requiring it to be kept current maximum sentence of two years’ imprisonment on a lead in places to which the public have access; for allowing one’s dog to kill someone is far too lenient. neutering male dogs; and requiring dogs and dog owners I hope that the hon. Member for Bedford will accept to attend training classes to bring potentially dangerous our support in principle for toughening the sentencing animals back under control. A dog control notice would guidelines and work with us in the other place to agree also require the dog to be microchipped and registered, on appropriate sentencing guidelines, informed by the so that any dogs that were found to be in breach could consultation response when the Government get around be identified clearly and unambiguously—something to publishing it. that is absolutely necessary for effective enforcement.

New clause 3 would introduce dog control notices. I Mr Mark Spencer (Sherwood) (Con): May I draw the believe that this measure enjoys widespread cross-party hon. Gentleman’s attention to new clause 19, which support in the House and near-unanimous support appears in my name and that of my hon. Friend the from outside organisations with an interest in dangerous Member for Thirsk and Malton (Miss McIntosh)? It dogs and animal welfare. When reading the Committee talks about not only the dog owner, but the person who transcripts, I was struck by the strength of support is in control of the dog at the time. I hope that he will from Government Back Benchers, in addition to the recognise that it is important to hold that person responsible. support from Labour Members. However, that should not be surprising. Taking responsible, tough action to Mr Reed: The hon. Gentleman makes a sensible and protect people from dangerous dogs and irresponsible helpful point. I recognise the sense of what he says. dog owners is plain common sense and something that Members on all sides of the House should support. It is disappointing that on Second Reading and in Committee, the Government resisted dog control notices Yesterday, I joined my hon. Friend the Member for and said that community protection notices would be Bolton West (Julie Hilling) to meet the father of Jade sufficient. I can only hope that, having read the Committee Anderson, who was savaged to death by four dogs when transcripts, the new Minister will bring fresh eyes to the she was just 14 years old. Michael Anderson and his issue and use fresh ears to listen to the experience of friend Royston had cycled down from Bolton in support outside organisations, the victims of dog attacks and of the Justice for Jade campaign. They came to lobby Members from all parts of the House who want tougher Members of this House because they want dog control action. notices to be introduced in England and Wales, as they The use of community protection notices, as advocated have been in Scotland. To lose a child is bad enough; to by the Government, is simply not sufficient. They are live with the knowledge of the appalling circumstances slow to serve, can be challenged in the courts, causing in which they died is almost too much to bear. I can further delays, and have been described by one outside offer Mr Anderson only my support, sympathy and organisation as a sledgehammer to crack a nut. The admiration that he is seeking to make something good Government had a perfect opportunity to show leadership out of such desperate and tragic circumstances. on this issue. They could have led this House and this Sadly, Jade’s case is not an isolated one. Since 2005, country to act to protect children and adults alike from nine children and seven adults have died as a consequence further dog attacks. However, the powers in the Bill and of dog attacks. In the three years to February 2013, the limited changes to which the Government are clinging 18,000 people were admitted to hospital in England and are not sufficient—not even close. Wales after dog attacks. That is almost 20 attacks a day that result in someone ending up in hospital. Not only Jim Fitzpatrick (Poplar and Limehouse) (Lab): My could many of those attacks be prevented by dog control hon. Friend is making an excellent case for new clause 3. notices, but the cost of those attacks to the NHS, the Does he agree that one of the successes of devolution is police and communities is an avoidable drain on already that we in Westminster can learn from the experiences overstretched resources. of the devolved authorities in various matters and do 663 Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and 15 OCTOBER 2013 Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and 664 Policing Bill Policing Bill [Jim Fitzpatrick] and much-needed tough but fair measures to deal with dangerous dogs. Six thousand hospitalisations a year is not have to reinvent the wheel? Will he refer later in his too many simply to look the other way. I would challenge speech to the experiences of Northern Ireland and any Member to sit down with Michael Anderson, Jade’s Scotland? father, as I did yesterday, and not conclude that the measures that we suggest must be on the statute book. Mr Reed: I thank my hon. Friend for that helpful I commend my hon. Friend the Member for Bolton reference to the situation in Scotland. Given that the West, who is in her place, for tabling new clause 6, experience of dog control notices in Scotland shows which is similar to new clause 3 in many ways. It that they work effectively, it is all the more baffling that highlights her commitment to bringing her constituency the Government refuse to support them. I hope that the issues to the House in the most powerful way possible. House can persuade the Minister to change his position. New clauses 17, 29 and 30, tabled by my hon. Friend The position for which I am arguing is not just a the Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge (Angela Labour one. The Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Smith), were mentioned earlier. They include a number Committee, which has a coalition majority, considered of further sensible and proportionate measures to deal the Bill and concluded: with dangerous dogs, and I am sure that Members of “We consider there to be strong evidence that targeted measures the other place will want to study them carefully in their would be more effective in tackling dog-related problems than the general powers proposed under the Government’s anti-social less time-pressured environment and take up many of behaviour and crime legislation…We recommend that the Government them. reconsider its rejection of our recommendation and legislate to I must push the Minister to accept new clause 3. To introduce Dog Control Notices to provide law enforcers with date, the Bill has been a missed opportunity for the tailored powers to tackle aggressive dogs before they injure people Government. The need for tougher action is clear and and other animals.” well evidenced, and the desire to act has been endorsed Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op): not just by the parties of government before the last My hon. Friend has eloquently set out the Environment, election but by the cross-party Environment, Food and Food and Rural Affairs Committee’s response on this Rural Affairs Committee and by every major organisation serious issue. I do not know whether he saw the Chair of that deals with dangerous dogs, animal welfare and that Committee’s summary of what was in the report, in irresponsible owners. The means to act are now before which she said that what the Government had brought the Minister, and I urge him to take the chance to do so. forward was “woefully inadequate”. She said that unless we have a measure that deals effectively with prevention, Huw Irranca-Davies: In the many months since the we will not tackle the problem at its source. Does my Government brought forward their provisional proposals, hon. Friend agree that without the introduction of dog they have failed to persuade any of those good and control notices, what the Government propose is indeed sensible people and organisations of their case. Those woefully inadequate? are not stupid organisations and people, and I urge Members to support them and support new clause 3. Mr Reed: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for putting that sensible view on the record. Of course, I am sympathetic Mr Reed: We wait with bated breath to see whether to it. Indeed, I will add another sensible view, that of the new Minister has now been convinced. the chief executive of the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, who said: Mr Spencer: I rise to speak to new clause 19 and “We remain unconvinced that CPNs will fulfil the same purpose amendments 97 to 99, which I and my hon. Friend the as bespoke Dog Control Notices.” Member for Thirsk and Malton (Miss McIntosh) tabled. I could go on to read the evidence to the Bill Committee Like the hon. Member for Croydon North (Mr Reed), of organisation after organisation: the Kennel Club, we are keen to ensure that there is provision for written Battersea Dogs and Cats Home, police and crime notices so that not only dog owners but those in charge commissioners, the Local Government Association and of a dog at any time have control of that animal and the Association of Chief Police Officers. Although that prevent it from causing injury or damage to any person would support my argument, I fear that a lengthy or any other animal. recitation would weary the House. However, two further sources of support for dog control notices are worth drawing to the House’s attention. 3.15 pm First, the hon. Member for Chatham and Aylesford Of course, there has to be a balance in the process, (Tracey Crouch) helpfully drew the Bill Committee’s and I emphasise the need for home owners to be able to attention to the fact that before the general election, the protect their property using a dog. Dogs must be allowed Conservative party pledged to give police and councils to protect property from burglars or trespassers who more power to tackle the problem of dangerous dogs may be there to commit a crime. It is important that we through the introduction of dog control notices. As it get that balance right and that home owners are allowed happens, the same is true of the Liberal Democrats, to protect their property. Dogs must be allowed to who also supported such notices when in opposition. defend property and act in a territorial manner, as they We are used to the policies of one or other Government are inclined to do, without a home owner having to fear party being lost in coalition fudges, but I am not aware prosecution. of a policy supported by both parties being lost in such I also wish to draw attention to the plight of those a way. On this occasion, not only do I agree with Nick, who are disabled and have a guide dog or hearing dog. but I am willing to agree with Dave as well. If we all People who are fortunate enough to be able-bodied can agree, for goodness’sake let us act and bring in long-overdue only imagine what it must be like for a blind person if 665 Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and 15 OCTOBER 2013 Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and 666 Policing Bill Policing Bill their guide dog is attacked in the street. Not only do visitors. That would be unreasonable, but the Bill as they lose their means of getting home, but the animal currently drafted could make dog owners feel vulnerable for which they care is disabled or injured, and they are to the proposed legislation, and therefore adopt those unable to get it the assistance it requires. I hope the unfortunate welfare standards. Amendment 142 is Minister will ensure that the Bill protects and provides reasonable and I hope the Minister will take it seriously. adequately for people who have a guide dog or hearing dog. For a disabled person to be in those circumstances My general point about the content of the Bill is that is absolutely intolerable. we need more than currently exists. What we do have is not necessarily best designed and in many ways is Finally, I seek the Minister’s assurance that he will inadequate for encouraging responsible dog ownership look long and hard at the new clauses and amendments and improving the welfare of dogs more generally. We on written notices, take on board Members’ comments need not only consolidation of the legislation but a and consider the position. comprehensive look at what measures we need for dog control. That position is supported by a grand coalition Angela Smith (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Lab): of charities and trade unions, including the RSPCA, We have all heard the tragic tales of those who have been the Dogs Trust, the Blue Cross, and Battersea Dogs and injured or even killed by dogs that are out of control, Cats Home. The Dogs Trust pointed out that 12 pieces and the issue is of growing concern to the public. I am of legislation in statute deal with dog control, but little therefore glad at least to see that the Government are emphasis is placed on the prevention of attacks and prepared to do something to tackle the problem. there is little focus on responsible dog ownership. The cases that have stuck out in the debate that has We need legislation that deals with dog ownership in taken place over the past few years relate to children the broadest possible sense, which is why I am working such as John Paul Massey, from Liverpool, who died with animal welfare charities on a strategy to take a three or four years ago; the girl from Chingford who long-term look at what needs to be done, and at how was attacked in the park and nearly lost part of her ear charities work together to improve welfare standards because of an attack by a dog that was running free, and responsible dog ownership. Once finalised, legislation unrestrained by its owner; and Jade Anderson, who will inevitably be part of that strategy, focusing not only died recently and about whom we have heard today. on dog control by the dog owner but on the breeding There was also the case of Keith Davies, the postman in and sale of dogs, and the responsibility of all involved Cambridgeshire who was attacked in a cul-de-sac by in dog welfare, including dog owners. two Rottweilers that had escaped from behind the gates of a private residence, and who nearly lost an arm. It The Bill does not tackle that issue holistically or was saved only through the skilful intervention of surgeons. comprehensively, and along with animal welfare charities Paul Coleman, the Sheffield postman who got me involved I remain disappointed that we have not had a dedicated in this campaign, nearly lost his leg as a result of an Bill to update the legislation. Community protection attack on the street where I used to live by a dog that notices are a blunt and unwieldy measure, not suited to was roaming free on the public highway. the task of tackling irresponsible dog ownership. As All those cases indicate to me that enough is enough. indicated by the changes in new clause 17, the Bill We spend £9.5 million a year on NHS costs alone to contains no power to issue notices instantly so as to get deal with the injuries inflicted on human beings by dogs on top of a dog that is potentially dangerous or out of that are out of control, and that is before considering control as soon as the situation occurs. In some cases, the costs incurred by the police and other bodies in inevitably, the authorities will wait until an attack has dealing with the issue. Any progress, however slight, is been committed before issuing a notice, because they therefore welcome. I particularly welcome the Government’s will not feel they should intervene and go through the decision to extend the law to private property. The onus unwieldy procedure to get a written notice before they will now be on owners to exercise responsible control of can make that move. I do not believe that the Bill their dogs at all times, which will be welcomed not just tackles those issues. New clause 3, tabled by my hon. by postal workers but by other delivery workers, health Friend the Member for Croydon North (Mr Reed), visitors, doctors, party members canvassing at election contains the important requirement that an owner whose times and a whole range of other people. That really dog is potentially out of control should be made to important safeguard will be more than welcome, because engage in training and behaviour courses related to 6,000 postal workers a year alone are injured as a result their ownership of the dog, and in that sense the new of attacks on private property. clause is helpful. I believe that a strengthening of the defence must be New clause 17 provides for a bespoke community built into the proposed legislation. The Bill currently protection notice modelled on the dog control notices includes the defence of general household protection, recommended by the Environment, Food and Rural but amendment 142 would strengthen the defences given Affairs Committee. Guidance has already been issued to householders who do their utmost to ensure they on community protection notices and the measures in keep their dogs under reasonable control. It is my the Bill, but so far that guidance is long and difficult to contention, and that of bodies such as the RSPCA, that interpret, and much of the support offered is found in the current defence does not do enough to protect the annexes to the guidance, not the guidance itself. As householders who do their best to keep their dogs under far as animal welfare charities are concerned, there will control at all times. We can never legislate for all possibilities, be an issue about the interpretation of that guidance, and it is important that we include the best possible and a risk that animal welfare standards will be defences in the Bill to ensure that householders do not, compromised as a result of the way it has been drafted. for example, adopt the habit of keeping dogs imprisoned The guidance has not been produced properly in in the house for most of the day because they have consultation with animal welfare charities. 667 Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and 15 OCTOBER 2013 Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and 668 Policing Bill Policing Bill [Angela Smith] following dog attacks on other animals, but there is often incitement by the animal’s keeper or a history of Finally—you have been patient, Mr Deputy Speaker—I other attacks. It can therefore be difficult to obtain will refer quickly to the new clauses that relate to information or prove a case, which means that section 4 section 1 of the Dangerous Dogs Act 1991. Clearly, is not a straightforward mechanism for prosecution. section 1 on breed-specific legislation is not working. In a consultation run by the Department for Environment, 3.30 pm Food and Rural Affairs on that Act and the measures before us today, 71% of those consulted thought that We discussed the Dogs Act 1871 in Committee. It is the breed-specific section of that Act should be repealed true that the Act can be used for attacks on protected because it is not working. It costs a tremendous amount animals, but it is limited in scope and application in the of money to kennel dogs seized under section 1 of the case of one-off incidents. The current legislation is not Act, with an annual cost over the past three financial conducive to early intervention or a preventive approach, years of £2.6 million for the Metropolitan police alone. or to dealing with less severe problems. We therefore The new clauses relate to the need to ensure that a need to look at the Act again. time limit is imposed on the courts regarding how long There has been an increase in the number of attacks a banned-breed dog can be held before the issue of on horses, which I mentioned in Committee on behalf whether it should be exempt from the legislation is dealt of the British Horse Society. The Dogs (Protection of with, to ensure that animal welfare standards are not Livestock) Act 1953 is applicable, but, under that Act, compromised. That is critical. There should also be the the attack must take place on agricultural land for an power to rehome dogs that are fit for exemption but offence to be committed. Horses on bridleways are have nowhere to go. The only other choice available to therefore not included. It is also not clear whether the animal welfare charities at the moment is euthanasia, Act is applicable when attacks take place on private which is not good enough. It is the deed not the breed, property—it depends whether land is considered grazing and I look forward to hearing the Minister’s comments land. on that important issue, which I know the Metropolitan Animal welfare charities do not believe that the current police, as well as animal charities such as the RSPCA, legislation is sufficient, which is why I have felt compelled are keen to see dealt with. to table amendment 133 again on Report. I believe that that will send a strong message to the other place that Several hon. Members rose— many people—not just scrutinisers of legislation, but those who love their companion animals—are concerned. Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. I will Briefly, on dog control notices and community protection not impose a time limit, but we must finish by 4.30 pm notices, the hon. Member for Croydon North (Mr Reed) and we need 10 minutes for the Minister. I will try to get was right to indicate that I said in Committee that there everybody in, but can we try to stick to five minutes was a manifesto commitment. I stand by that commitment, wherever possible? and the Government have gone a long way to address the problems with dog control notices. Tellingly, organisations Tracey Crouch (Chatham and Aylesford) (Con): I rise such as the Dogs Trust have made it clear that they are to address amendment 133 tabled in my name, which assured that the principle of DCNs could be applied looks specifically at extending the Bill to include protected within a CPN. However, the Dogs Trust has said—I am animals. I tabled a similar amendment—slightly differently sympathetic to this—that the draft guidance on CPN worded—in Committee, and it has been redrafted by enforcement is vague, particularly with regard to application. animal welfare charities for consideration today. The The Minister therefore needs to reassure the House, the amendment is intended to be limited in scope, and charities that have been in touch with hon. Members on would not capture a genuine, accidental attack by a dog DCNs, and trade unions such as the Communication on a protected animal—that was one concern raised in Workers Union, which provided an excellent briefing in Committee. For example, some dogs chase cats or other advance of the debate, that CPNs will do as much if not small animals, and that would not be caught by the more than DCNs. It is important that we send a clear amendment, which refers specifically to attacks. message that we take the problem seriously. From previous discussions in Committee we know Finally, my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley there has been an increase in attacks on protected (Philip Davies) is not in his place to speak to the animals. Charities, law enforcement agencies and the amendments he has tabled, but they are interesting and general public are concerned about the increase, yet we worthy of consideration, specifically on exemptions—for do not have a public record of the number of attacks example, should a person who is the victim of an attack and must rely on press reports. We know that there have and whose dog then attacks the other person be liable? I been 66 reports of attacks—mostly fatal—on cats, including am not suggesting that the Minister should accept all one last week, when the death of Caspar, which was the exemptions proposed by my hon. Friend, but I urge devastating for the family involved, was reported in the him to consider them in a meaningful way. Bolton News. This is an incredibly important issue and one that The problem is genuine for people who love their drives a great deal of emotion and passion, not only pets—it is incredibly important to them. My proposal is among victims of attacks but among those who care designed to deal not only with dog-chasing-cat events; very much about their companion animals. The fact is attacks are often aggravated. The argument in Committee that the dangerous dogs and animal welfare legislation was that the current legislation deals with the problem, is incredibly complex. I am not convinced that the Bill but some animal welfare charities beg to differ. For simplifies it in any way, shape or form, but I hope the example, it is true that the RSPCA has used section 4 of Minister acts on the concerns with regard to protected the Animal Welfare Act 2006 on occasion to prosecute animals. 669 Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and 15 OCTOBER 2013 Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and 670 Policing Bill Policing Bill Ann Coffey: I shall speak to new clause 18, which is in will feel able to accept it. If they do not, I hope they will my name and those of my hon. Friends. Rightly, there is include the proposal in any future consultation. a lot of concern about serious injury and death caused by aggressive dogs, and I support the measures proposed Richard Fuller: I rise to speak to amendments 140 by my hon. Friends to tighten the current criminal law and 141 in my name, which would increase the maximum and introduce stricter penalties. sentence to 14 years for owners of an out-of-control New clause 18 deals with a different situation—it is a dog that kills or injures a person or assistance dog. I am simple preventive measure to stop injuries to many happy that the Government responded to the requests people who, every year, post millions of bits of paper of the Committee and conducted a consultation over through letterboxes. It is not unknown for dogs to the summer. However, I am disappointed that the results regard fingers put through letterboxes as curiosities and are not available. fair game for fastening their teeth on. Some dogs are People have the right to see their representatives aggressive, but others might simply believe they are debate fully and vote on what sentences they feel are being playful. The thought of a dog hurtling itself at a appropriate to be imposed on the owners of out-of-control letterbox might conjure up visions of an hilarious scene dogs. Those people include the constituents of the hon. from a sitcom, but for the real-life recipient, it can be Member for Bolton West (Julie Hilling), who has been traumatic and painful. People can sustain injuries ranging an outstanding campaigner on behalf of her constituents from bite marks and minor bruising to fingers or nerves and the victims of out-of-control dogs across the country. being severed, causing long-term injury. Some years They include the families who have lost loved ones over ago, I had to take my constituency assistant to accident the years, as hon. Members have mentioned in their and emergency for a serious injury to her hand sustained speeches, and the 13-year-old boy who was attacked in while leafleting. Bradford a couple of months ago. As reported by the The amendment requires householders who keep a Daily Mail, he suffered a 10-minute attack which ended dog in their house to put up a wire mesh guard around with the young boy saying, “I’m going to die, I’m going their letterbox where there is a reasonable probability to die.” These people have the right to see us debate how that, either through aggression or playfulness, it could we intend to increase sentences. go for somebody’s hand. I am not saying that every dog The Communication Workers Union has a lot on its owner must rush out and buy a wire guard—if they plate these days, but like any good union it is thinking have a good dog there is no need to worry. However, if first and foremost about the safety and well-being of its there is a chance that their dog might jump up and, for members. Five thousand postal workers are attacked whatever reason, bite someone through the letterbox, it each year by dogs. They have the right to have the would be up to them to take responsibility to prevent House debate the right sentence. It is important for the accidents and put in a simple wire guard. Minister to understand that the CWU supports a 14-year sentence for the killing of a person by an out-of-control Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab): I strongly support dog. The police also have a right to see us debate and what my hon. Friend is saying. While delivering leaflets vote on this issue today.In their evidence to the Committee, during the previous general election campaign, I was they raised the total and utter inadequacy of the current bitten by a dog. It took an hour out of my life to have a legislation in dealing with the important and increasing tetanus injection at the hospital. problem of attacks by out-of-control dogs. I will listen carefully to the Minister’s comments. I do not want to hear any flim-flam from him about how he is not sure Ann Coffey: I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. where this is going and how we should just trust the I am sure his experience is shared by a lot of hon. Government to get it right. Members. If dog owners fail to comply with the requirement Jim Fitzpatrick rose— and there is an incident, the person bitten would be entitled to take a civil court action against them. By this Richard Fuller: If the hon. Gentleman does not mind, simple measure, I believe that many injuries could be I will not give way, because others want to get in. averted every year, and it has the added advantage of I believe that 14 years is the right maximum penalty. I protecting householders from the hostility generated if am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for North their dog bites someone, particularly if that happens to East Cambridgeshire (Stephen Barclay) and my hon. be a child. and learned Friend the Member for Sleaford and North I understand that there may not be much public Hykeham (Stephen Phillips) for saying that, in many sympathy for politicians who get bitten by dogs, but this ways, it is equivalent to the maximum penalty imposed is not simply a problem for politicians. Many people for dangerous driving. I believe that 14 years would push leaflets and letters through doors, including: postmen send a strong message that owners must now take and women; newspaper boys and girls; people starting responsibility, and not just assume that it lies with the up new businesses or advertising pizza and other fast dog, and to judges, who today, even with the inadequate food services; neighbours posting Christmas and birthday maximum penalty available, are not handing out very cards; and people posting leaflets advertising community significant sentences when they should. events. I want us to provide reassurance that this would be a I support the other amendments that have been tabled maximum penalty, not a mandatory penalty, and that that aim to change criminal law, to make owners manage we are not asking people to lock up their dogs, as the their dogs better and to put stricter penalties in place. hon. Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge (Angela However, my amendment is designed with safety, not Smith) mentioned; we have to get the balance right. I the criminal law, in mind and I hope the Government will listen to the Minister, who is casting a fresh set of 671 Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and 15 OCTOBER 2013 Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and 672 Policing Bill Policing Bill [Richard Fuller] had already been brought under control; and that they would not tackle the problem of dogs first becoming eyes on this, but let us not forget that at the moment the dangerously out of control must be taken seriously and dog gets a death penalty, but the owner walks away be addressed either today or when the Bill goes to the pretty much scot-free. That is not responsible. The other place. I hope that the Government see sense today Government need to be responsible today and say what and accept new clause 3. they intend to do. Let me move on to new clause 6. I believe that the issue of having too many dogs in a household should be Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab): I want to speak tackled as part of dog control notices. I wish I could talk specifically to new clause 6, other new clauses in my in detail about the dogs that killed Jade, but unfortunately name and some of the amendments. I cannot because the dogs’ owner still awaits sentence The House will be aware of the tragedy that occurred on dog cruelty charges. This demonstrates well how dog in my constituency on 26 March, when 14-year-old Jade welfare and community safety are closely linked. For Lomas-Anderson was killed by four out-of-control dogs that reason, I will have to speak in the abstract. in the house of a friend where she was staying overnight. My hon. Friend the Member for Croydon North (Mr Reed) 3.45 pm has paid tribute to Jade’s dad and his friend Royston First, it is well documented that dogs will act in packs Brett, who cycled from Atherton to Westminster over and that unless they are well trained, well socialised and the weekend to add their voice to those calling for the kept under control, they will act together to the detriment legislation to be strengthened in this area. of the community. By all accounts, Jade was a smashing girl, full of life, Far too many people do not think through what sort kind to everyone and a good friend to many. When her of dog they should have in their household. Are there parents were asked what Jade would have thought about children? Do they have time to exercise the dogs? How their campaign for justice, they answered that she would much room do they have? Can they afford to keep and have been the first to campaign, as she was such a caring feed the dogs and get them veterinary treatment? Should girl. Her life was cut tragically short, but because of they get small or big dogs? These questions are not even shortcomings in current legislation, no one can be held considered by far too many people when they purchase accountable. The tragedy has had a profound effect, not their puppy. Clearly, then, we need better education. only on Jade’s mum and dad, Shirley and Michael, and What happens when people make the wrong choice? I her immediate family, but on the whole community of believe, as do Jade’s parents, that there should be the Atherton. ability to take quick and immediate action to instruct Jade’s parents have bravely led a campaign supported an owner to reduce the number of dogs they have. The by the community and by Wigan council to ensure that number of dogs people have is not a problem only for no other family suffers like they have. As Michael says, community safety. this is a problem of epidemic proportions. According to the People’s Dispensary for Sick Animals, 1 million Angie Bray (Ealing Central and Acton) (Con): What dogs have displayed dangerous behaviour towards people the hon. Lady says about the number of animals sometimes and animals in the past year. About 250,000 attacks are kept in the home is extremely important. On a lot of made by dogs each year and 12 postal workers will have estates, it is the number of animals that often leads to a been attacked by dogs today. The cost to the NHS and lack of control. Does she agree that one of the most taxpayers is about £9.5 million. According to my figures, important ways of trying to tackle the problem is to get more than 6,000 people are hospitalised each year, local authorities to engage with housing tenancies and many of whom will have received life-changing injuries, use the management of those tenancies to control the although my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon number of dogs in houses and perhaps to say that the North said the number was higher. There have been top of a tall building, for example, is entirely unsuitable 16 deaths since 2005 and I cannot even say that Jade for keeping pets? was the last person to die, because in May 79-year-old Clifford Clarke was killed in Liverpool. In the area Julie Hilling: I want to say more about that. I agree around Hag Fold, where Jade was killed, I know of with the hon. Lady, but the issue does not apply only to three serious attacks since March. It is endless. social housing, which is why we need legislative change I am pleased that the Government are taking the so that the problem of people having too many dogs can issue seriously and that people could now be prosecuted be tackled wherever somebody lives. She is right that we for attacks on private property, and I sincerely hope need to do more for people in social housing and other that they will bring forward proposals to increase the rented properties. penalties when the Bill goes to the other place, in the The number of dogs creates a problem not just in way that the hon. Member for Bedford (Richard Fuller) relation to community safety.A recent event was organised just described. I still believe, however, that they are on Hag Fold estate by Wigan council to micro-chip missing a trick by ignoring the call from all the dog dogs and promote responsible ownership as part of the charities, the CWU, vets, nurses and the police to introduce Jade campaign. Two volunteers, Councillor Karen Aldred straightforward legislation on dog control notices. I am and the wonderful local resident Sandi Lucas, went sure that they believe their proposals will tackle this knocking on doors to try to find dog owners to encourage issue, but when all the dog charities and other vested them to attend the event. When they knocked on one interests are telling them they have got it wrong, they door, they were told, “Well, I haven’t got any dogs, but should listen. Fears that the Government’s proposals go over there because the owner has loads of dogs and are too bureaucratic; that there would have to be more is creating mayhem in the community”. That owner had than one incident; that they would not apply if the dog seven dogs in a small house, creating noise, unpleasant 673 Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and 15 OCTOBER 2013 Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and 674 Policing Bill Policing Bill smells and making life a misery for the neighbours. I am in the Bill, not least in the context of the Government’s working with Wigan and Leigh Housing on tenancy earlier action in setting a timetable for the introduction clauses for dog ownership, but as I said, the issue is not of universal microchipping. That will help us to identify confined to social housing; we need simple remedies for the real culprits, who—as many Members have pointed all. out—are irresponsible dog owners as much as the dogs The new clause does not specify how many dogs themselves, some of which are just more victims of this should be in a household because I am not trying to phenomenon. restrict the responsible ownership of dogs. Frankly, if The hon. Member for Croydon North (Mr Reed) and someone lives on a country estate with vast grounds, others have made a strong case for dog control orders. I they can have as many dogs as they want, as long as have been sympathetic to that idea for many years, but I they do not cause danger or disturbance to anyone else. should be content if we could achieve the same outcome I hope that the Government will listen to calls from by other means. I understand the Government’s position; communities to give them the powers they need for I realise that their main purpose is to simplify and people to live peaceful and safe lives. rationalise antisocial behaviour legislation without Let me touch briefly on the issue of breeding dogs. sacrificing flexibility. The Bill underlines the important We know that a strong contributory factor to dogs point that the issue of dangerous dogs is inextricably becoming out of control is how they are socialised in linked with that of human antisocial behaviour. If we the first few weeks of their lives—whether, for example, can tackle one by tackling the other, I shall be satisfied, they are taken away from their mother too soon or are even if the legislation does not include the actual words appropriately socialised with other dogs and people or “dog control order”. are sold to people who know how to train and look One of the most important provisions involves the after them. This may be an issue for the urgently needed extension of liability for dangerous dogs to private dog welfare and control Act, which I shall continue to property. Liberty has expressed some concern about the press the Government to introduce because, whatever so-called “bite a burglar” provisions, and I think that the results of these provisions, we still need holistic Ministers need to consider those carefully. Our two legislation to deal with those issues. contradictory instincts are to say, quite rightly, that Finally, I want to press the Government to extend the burglars who enter other people’s properties with malicious legislation to cover attacks on all protected animals. intent should do so entirely at their own risk, and to Attacking other animals is a sign that dogs are becoming support the extension to private property of liability for dangerously out of control and therefore a threat to the dangerous behaviour of animals. Both are worthy people. Why should a responsible pet owner have to instincts, and resolving that conflict will be a difficult face the trauma of an attack and the related veterinary task for Ministers. I speak as the brother of a postal expenses and heartache? Many owners are actually worker who is very keen for the Bill to proceed. injured while trying to protect their beloved pets, such as the woman in Atherton who, just two weeks ago, lost Mr Mark Spencer (Sherwood) (Con): Will the hon. part of her finger when she picked up her dog to protect Gentleman give way? it from a ferocious dog. There is much in the Bill to be welcomed, but it does Martin Horwood: I am sorry, but I will not, because not go far enough. I ask the Government to look again of the time. and to support our new clauses and amendments to Another important provision, which has not been strengthen the Bill. Jade, her parents and all the other mentioned much in the debate so far, is clause 99, which victims of dog attacks deserve no less. begins the necessary shift from breed to deed. It requires a court to establish whether a dog is Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD): It is an honour “a danger to public safety”, to follow the hon. Member for Bolton West (Julie given Hilling). I am sure that she spoke for the whole House in relation to the case of poor Jade Anderson. Sadly, “the temperament of the dog and its past behaviour”, that is just the latest and most tragic example of what and to establish whether the dog’s owner is a “fit and the hon. Lady rightly described as an epidemic of dog proper person” to own a dog. I agree with the criticism attacks which are hospitalising thousands, and injuring by the hon. Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge of thousands of postal workers and others. I am afraid the rather strange list of obscure breeds, which I am not that there have been many distressing cases in my own sure that most police forces would recognise even if they constituency, which led me to become involved in what came across them. I do not know whether we will has been quite a long campaign. I pay tribute to, in eventually abolish that list, but I certainly think it particular, the hon. Members for Penistone and significant that the Bill is embarking on that shift towards Stocksbridge (Angela Smith) and for Ealing Central tackling deed and behaviour rather than just breed. and Acton (Angie Bray), both of whom have campaigned I have some sympathy for the amendments tabled by very persistently. the hon. Member for Bedford (Richard Fuller). They For many years it seemed as if the Government were seek tougher sentencing, underlining the fact that in not budging at all on the issue, so it is enormously many instances dogs are used as lethal weapons, and welcome that we are considering it in the context of this that we should see that in the context of the responsibility Bill, and that the Government are taking action. Their of their owners. I also have some sympathy for the action is being taken step by step—it is rather gradualist— amendment tabled by the hon. Member for Stockport and that may be frustrating for some of us, but we (Ann Coffey), as, I think, will legions of Liberal Democrat should not make the best the enemy of the good. We “Focus”deliverers. My constituent Councillor Rob Reid should recognise the positive steps that are being taken provided me with a paddle which I now use to push 675 Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and 15 OCTOBER 2013 Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and 676 Policing Bill Policing Bill [Martin Horwood] (Julie Hilling) has been affected in more recent times. We have heard the worst examples and seen evidence in leaflets through letter boxes. A deliverer can take some newspapers and on television of the most tragic injuries responsible action. The paddle now bears a good many and of people who are permanently disfigured. As we teeth marks, which could have been on my fingers. have heard, every year, thousands of people are hospitalised. Councillor Reid made it by cutting up old “Yes to the Every year, hundreds of thousands of people are attacked alternative vote” campaign placards, which is probably by a dog and may not present themselves to the NHS. one of the lesser but more positive outcomes of that For many of those people, there are long-term psychological campaign. consequences. For people on the front line who go into homes, be they social workers, BT workers, meter readers Angela Smith: Is it not true that, if we legislate or energy company staff, such attacks can have a long-term specifically to require dog owners to put guards on their impact on their ability to work. letter boxes, we will run the danger of neglecting the As we have heard, the attacks come at a great cost. other risks that people face when they go on to private The estimates that we have are very conservative. There property, such as dogs running free in back gardens? Is is a cost of £10 million a year to the NHS. That should it not the case that there are a number of possibilities in cause any Government concern. Equally, as the hon. terms of dog attacks once someone passes the boundary Member for Sherwood (Mr Spencer) said, people who of the gate? are visually impaired will be affected if their guide dog is attacked. I do not think that enough of us know—I Martin Horwood: It is important that the Government learned this only recently—that it costs £50,000 to train consult carefully on all these things. We do not want to and look after a guide dog over its lifetime. That is all intrude too much into the realm of private property and charitable money. If a guide dog is attacked by a dog, what people are allowed to do with their dogs in their not only will there be a cost and long-term consequences property, but the point that the hon. Lady makes is well for the guide dog, but the owner, who has spent time made. bonding with the guide dog and has depended on it, will I ask the Minister to consider carefully the campaign no longer have a friend. That can also have long-term by Naturewatch, which is based in my constituency and consequences. led me to table early-day motion 412 to address the I support new clause 3, which is in my name and that issues of irresponsible breeders and the need to regulate of many hon. Friends, because I share the criticism by the advertising and selling of pets. That could be the the Select Committee on Environment, Food and Rural next important step that the Government take in their Affairs and many hon. Members on both sides of the rather gradualist approach to the issue. In many ways, House. Although I welcome what the Government have that is one of the root causes of the phenomenon of done on the issue, the clear message that I have heard dangerous and trophy dogs and dogs used as weapons. from professionals in the field is that we should prevent For now, however, we should congratulate the dog attacks from happening in the first place. Government on taking some important steps to tackle I have listened very closely to the contributions of the issue. The steps we are voting on today will help to Members on both sides of the House, in particular save lives. They will potentially save the lives of children those on the Government Benches who spoke in support like poor Jade Anderson and the lives of adults. They of what the Government have come forward with thus will certainly save the lives of pets. Those steps are far. I have also looked very closely at the community overwhelmingly to be welcomed. protection notices and I have listened to the professionals who know far better than I do how this will operate in Luciana Berger: In November four years ago, my practice, and I will listen very carefully to the Minister’s constituent, John Paul Massey, was killed by a dog in response, too, but I have strong concerns. As it stands, Wavertree. He was four. It happened during the run-up CPNs are very bureaucratic and practitioners will need to the general election. I remember the impact that his a lot of time and resource to implement them. They will death had not only on his family and their friends but not sufficiently address dog behaviour and welfare. on the wider community. To this day, I have people who That is, essentially, what all of us here are talking about come to talk to me about the experience of that happening today. There are also concerns that the CPN will come in our community and how it has impacted on them, too late, because the dog owner must be served with a even though they may just have been a neighbour or written warning before they can be issued with a CPN. someone who lived in a neighbouring street. It is not just John Paul Massey who tragically lost his life. Hon. 4pm Members on both sides of the House have mentioned I support dog control notices as I believe they would many other victims. One life lost because of a dog is one increase the profile of the issues and awareness of them life too many. I hope that the Minister will reflect on among the target audience. They would also serve to that in his response. impress upon enforcers the need to ensure expertise I am going to echo many of the comments made by among those authorised to issue notices. We have not hon. Friends and Members on the Government Benches. spoken about what a DCN would specifically do. It I notice that there are people present who have been would place a responsibility on an owner to undertake long-standing campaigners on the issue for far longer requirements tailored to the need of the individual and than I have following my election in May 2010. I pay their dog. That could be something as simple as the use tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Penistone of a lead or a muzzle at an appropriate time, or the and Stocksbridge (Angela Smith) for the hard work maintenance of a dog-proof fence, or a request to that she has done for so many more years than I have on undertake some training. I have attended events the the issue. My hon. Friend the Member for Bolton West Dogs Trust puts on for free, so I have met many people 677 Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and 15 OCTOBER 2013 Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and 678 Policing Bill Policing Bill who love their pet but do not have the skills or expertise took place in the summer, and although my hon. Friend to best look after it. A DCN could address that very is disappointed that it has not yet been published and well. any changes will be made in the House of Lords, by The focus of a DCN is on education and supporting Whitehall standards this is the speed of light: we have a the individual, rather than being punitive to the owner Bill, we meet a Minister, the Minister undertakes to or dog. I urge the Minister to think very seriously about have a consultation, we have the consultation and in a this issue because we have a problem in this country. We matter of weeks something will come back to the other see it in communities all the time, and not just in place. That is pretty good, so I welcome what the inner-city urban communities, but in rural communities DEFRA officials and the Minister have said. too. We need something that is going to deal with dog attacks effectively, so we never again open a newspaper Richard Fuller: I join my hon. Friend in commending or switch on our TV and learn of somebody tragically Lord de Mauley for his speed in DEFRA. We are just being maimed or losing their life because of a dog. looking for the same speed of reaction from the Home I know the Minister is new in his post, and I urge him Office. to listen to the professionals, including the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, the Dogs Mr Syms: Absolutely. Progress has been made and Trust, the Kennel Club, the British Veterinary Association the Government listened to our Committee debates. I and others, and also to the Communication Workers was surprised that my hon. Friend the Member for Union, which represents thousands of postmen and Chatham and Aylesford (Tracey Crouch), who mentioned women who deliver our mail every day, and up to 20 of cats, did not mention Mungo and Basil, as they got a whom are attacked just delivering our post. I ask the mention in Committee. It was an interesting Committee Minister to consider the new clause again. If the and things were well debated. We made proposals that Government are not going to support it today, I urge will improve the Bill. I urge the Minister to resist most them to consider it in the other place, because we need of the amendments, but to consider the amendment to serious action to prevent dog attacks in the first place. do with the tariff, which needs to be given serious consideration. Mr Robert Syms (Poole) (Con): I welcome what the To go back to my first point, the Bill is about simplifying Government are doing. It is quite brave. Dealing with things and making them more flexible, and I urge the any topic such as this one fuels great passions. All of us Minister to resist more complicated legislation. Let us love dogs, but those of us who are parents feel slight get on with the job and let us make it easier for legislators. fear when we see an unruly dog in a playground or This is a good Bill, extending the Dangerous Dogs Act somewhere else. 1991 to private property and protecting assistance dogs. We have to strike a proper balance. The whole thrust It contains a lot of good things and if we can get the of what the Government are doing in this area is to tariff up as well, it will be a result for those who served simplify and make flexible antisocial behaviour legislation on the Committee and for this House. so it can be more easily used. Therefore I urge the Minister to resist most of the amendments, although I John Healey (Wentworth and Dearne) (Lab): It is a accept they have been tabled for understandable and pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Poole (Mr Syms) strong reasons, and the hon. Member for Bolton West and it was good to hear him speaking in the House, (Julie Hilling) certainly made a very good contribution. after a period in the Whips on the Front Bench, although We ought to go forward with what is being proposed, what he had to say was still a little too loyal for my taste. which is CPNs, and see whether they deliver what the I welcome clause 98 and the extension of the offence Government have assured us they will. of allowing a dog to cause injury or the fear of injury to There are DPNs in Scotland and Northern Ireland all places, including all private property. That is long and the Government have looked at them and concluded awaited and closes a significant loophole in the law. they would rather have CPNs. If devolution is to mean Ministers have simply been much to slow to make this anything, it must allow Scotland and Northern Ireland change. Today, however, particularly with new clause 3, to go their own way and the rest of the United Kingdom the new Minister has the opportunity to act ahead of a to go a different way if it perceives that is a better way to serious and growing problem, instead of just giving a deal with the problem. long-delayed response to a problem, as we have seen so far. I am talking about the introduction of dog control Jim Shannon: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? notices. We know that thousands of victims are injured and Mr Syms: No. hospitalised each year as a result of dog attacks. We We all know the problem is irresponsible dog owners, know that the number of owners sentenced for offences and the Government’s raft of proposed legislation ought related to dangerous dogs has increased by more than to be able to deal with that effectively. I therefore urge one third since 2009. Just in South Yorkshire the police the Minister to resist most of the amendments, but I tell me that in the past year they have responded to 464 also urge him to give special attention to what my hon. dog attack incidents, and that just in 2013 they have so Friend the Member for Bedford (Richard Fuller) said. far taken out 26 court cases pursuing prosecution against The Committee came up with some refreshing ideas. those owners. Some of the Back-Bench Members had meetings with The latest case reported to me was that of Rebecca Ministers, including the Department for Environment, Lowman of Goldthorpe, who was attacked and badly Food and Rural Affairs Minister Lord de Mauley. The injured in the arm and leg last month when she was refreshing thing was that they were prepared to look at defending a woman who was being attacked by her own the issue of the tariff and sentencing. A consultation dog in her own house. While Becky was still in hospital, 679 Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and 15 OCTOBER 2013 Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and 680 Policing Bill Policing Bill [John Healey] I declare an interest because, like you, Mr Deputy Speaker, I am a dog owner. My dog, a little border I sat down with her husband John, who was very upset terrier called William, is a lot smaller than yours. I saw by Becky’s injuries and very angry that the police had yours in the Westminster dog show last year and many no ability to act on that dog because the attack took people think that your breed of dog is quite powerful, place in that private house. but I know from having witnessed your dog that it is Since I started campaigning on this issue in the past well brought up and peaceable. few weeks, a lot of people have contacted me, including Let us be sensible about this. I know that new clause 3 Norma Saunders, who told me that she knows someone is well intentioned, but it could have draconian effects. who was a victim of a dog attack. She said: All it states is: “After the dog attacked several times, our community felt “Where an authorised officer has reasonable cause to believe terrorized. I did not let my little boy play in the garden & I did not that a dog is not under sufficient control”. walk to the shops, but the authorities were not interested.” It requires a reasonable belief—that is not probability. I pay tribute to Hallam FM in South Yorkshire, which We all know that there are disputes between neighbours, has taken up this campaign, aired the problems and or that people have rows with other people. That is such given listeners the chance to give their experiences over a small bar to get over for an “authorised officer”. the past week. A couple have phoned in with very powerful points. One said that the law must be changed: Luciana Berger rose— “I was mauled by an American Pitt bull crossed with a Bull Sir Edward Leigh: I had better not give way, because I mastiff at my friend’s house and as it was in its rightful house nothing could have been done…I have been left with traumatic do not want Mr Deputy Speaker to set his dogs of war memories and ugly scars, this dog has not been put down and has on me. I shall be very brief and will not take any in fact bitten someone else”. interventions. Another caller simply said that we should Let me make a simple point. Who is this “authorised “just do what is definitely necessary to prevent any more horrific officer”? What is this “reasonable cause”? Simply because and fatal attacks on innocent people and children.” that officer of the state has some sort of belief, which The Minister has the chance to do just that this afternoon. might have been motivated by other people, the dog I urge the Minister, taking advantage of his fresh might have to be muzzled, neutered or prevented from mandate as a new Minister in a new post, to accept new going in particular places. I am very worried about that. clause 3. Dog control notices have been legislated for in I am also very worried about the other amendments. Scotland for three years and this represents a sensible I do not agree with my hon. Friend the Member for extension of the scope for local authorities, courts and Bedford (Richard Fuller), who was talking about 14-year the police to take action against a person in control of a sentences. It was in the papers last year that somebody dog whose behaviour is out of control. My hon. Friend had driven their car dangerously and killed somebody the Member for Liverpool, Wavertree (Luciana Berger) while they were looking at their global positioning system has explained some of the steps and sanctions available device. They did not look out of the window for 18 seconds to the authorities when a dog control notice is in place. and they killed a cyclist, and they went to prison for three years. We all think that is ridiculous. Are we really Labour has been arguing this case but Ministers have going to send someone to prison for 14 years? been dragging their feet for three years now. During that time, thousands more have suffered serious and Let us be honest about it. Dogs have been bred for often debilitating injuries. Most dog owners are responsible thousands of years to be guard dogs. Even my pathetic and their dogs are well behaved, but a minority see dogs little border terrier, William, barks when people come as status symbols or even offensive weapons. The up the garden path. That is what dogs are bred to do. Government must go further than this Bill. Closing the All this nonsense about Liberal party canvassers who loophole in the legislation over attacks on some private are scared of getting their fingers bitten when they put a property is a sensible step, but one that they have been leaflet through the door—I have delivered thousands of pushed to take. Let us see Ministers take the next sensible useless Conservative party pamphlets through the door. step this afternoon, introduce and accept the principle When I see a dog behind the door, I am delighted not to of dog control notices and help to reverse the rising put the pamphlet through the letterbox. Just show some trend of attacks and to head off some of the attacks we common sense. Dogs are dogs. We cannot change dogs will otherwise definitely see, which will leave adults and with legislation. children badly scarred, badly injured, badly traumatised New clause 3 is just one extra bit of legislation that and, in some cases, dead. will not impact on the people who really cause trouble, but will, as I said, impact on millions of dog owners. We Sir Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con): I support should be calm, take a gradualist approach and support the Government’s gradualist and sensible approach and what the Government are doing. I urge the Minister to resist new clause 3. We all regret and are desperately unhappy about vicious attacks by 4.15 pm dogs, particularly on children—although also on anybody Norman Baker: We have had a good wide-ranging else—and if legislation could solve that problem and debate. In the time left available to me, I will try as new clause 3 could deal with it without causing massive always to address the points that have been raised, but if potential inconvenience to millions of peaceable people I am unable to respond to all of them, I will write to the who own dogs, I would be in favour of it. However, like individual Members who have raised points and have all such amendments, it would probably, sadly, do little not had those addressed as part of my response. to control the vicious people who use dogs as weapons Let me say first that we are very sympathetic to the and it could impact severely on millions of ordinary, calls from many people for an increase in the maximum peaceable dog owners. penalty for a dog attack. The Government agree that 681 Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and 15 OCTOBER 2013 Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and 682 Policing Bill Policing Bill two years’ imprisonment is not a sufficient penalty for Those measures can address all types of such the devastation and damage that a serious dog attack irresponsible behaviour with a dog, regardless of the can do. There were over 3,000 responses to the consultation, specific manifestation. For example, a community protection and although there was strong support for an increased notice can be served in cases where there are too many maximum penalty, there was no consensus as to where dogs in one home—the point made by the hon. Member to set the bar. Given the volume of responses, I regret for Bolton West (Julie Hilling)—where an owner does that it has not been possible for the Department to not have proper control of his or her dog, where a dog conclude its consideration of the issue in time to table a strays and in many other scenarios. Those measures are Government amendment on Report, but I can reassure in addition to existing statutory measures, notably offences my hon. Friend the Member for Bedford (Richard under the Animal Welfare Act 2006 relating to welfare Fuller) that the Government will table an amendment standards, the law on statutory nuisance and, for commercial to increase the maximum penalties for dog attacks when dog breeders, any licence requirements. the Bill is in the other place. The response to the I want to reassure Members—this is an important consultation on changes will, I can assure the shadow point—that all the requirements they suggest under Minister, be published in good time to inform the new clauses 3 and 6, such as muzzling, neutering, debates on the issue in the other place. microchipping, keeping a dog on a lead, attending The Government amendment will reflect the high training classes, fitting a letterbox guard to the door of public concern that two years is an insufficient penalty a property and seeking expert advice, can be required for these offences, and the fact that some 16 adults and under a community protection notice. The new clauses, children have died in dog attacks since 2005, and some although well intentioned, are simply not necessary. 10 assistance dogs are attacked by other dogs every month. The powers are already there in the Bill. To pick up on a As the consultation made clear, we will be looking to point made by the shadow Minister, that is how the Liberal distinguish between attacks on people and attacks on Democrat and Conservative manifesto commitments assistance dogs. For attacks on people and where a are being delivered. person is killed or seriously injured, I am attracted—perhaps given my former role as a Transport Minister—by the Luciana Berger: Will the Minister acknowledge that, comparison with penalties for causing death or serious as the legislation is currently drafted, individuals will injury by dangerous driving. Where a dog attacks an still require a written warning before they can receive a assistance dog, we will be looking at a lower maximum community protection notice, which will add delays? penalty, but one that is higher than the present one that Who knows what could happen during the intervening applies. period? I should say to my hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough (Sir Edward Leigh) that some people are Norman Baker: I want to address that point. Only breeding dogs deliberately to use as weapons. It is under this month the Department for Environment, Food and those circumstances that higher penalties would be Rural Affairs published a draft practitioners’ manual—it applicable. I hope that in the light of the reassurances is a draft because we are inviting comments on it—entitled, that I have given on this matter, and the commitment “Tackling irresponsible dog ownership”. It gives an that I am giving to a Government amendment, my hon. example on page 15. If a dog is out of control in a park, Friend the Member for Shipley (Philip Davies) will not a written notice can be issued on the spot by the press his amendments today. relevant officer who has control in that situation. The owner would then be given a “reasonable time”, which New clauses 3, 6, 17, 18 and 19 deal with dog control might be just five minutes, to respond. If the dog is not notices, dog number control notices and the requirement brought under control in that time, the community for all households with a dog to fit letterbox guards. I protection notice can be issued right away. I do not understand the intentions of hon. Members who tabled understand why the Opposition think that there could these amendments. There is a genuine need for an be huge delays in the process, because there could not. additional tool to address poor dog ownership and to It is a simple piece of legislation to make it effective and enable early action to prevent dog bites and attacks. I quick, and that relates to the issues to which attention is understand the point made by the hon. Member for rightly being drawn. Stockport (Ann Coffey), who sought to take matters forward with her new clause 18. Every day thousands of postal workers and others, including those who deliver Mr Spencer: I am concerned about the term “owner”, political literature, face uncertainty and apprehension because the person in control of the dog in the park as they approach houses with dogs to deliver mail and might not be the owner, so the “It’s my cousin’s dog” so on. The Government believe that such individuals defence could deflect the notice. must be able to go about their duties without fear of injury. Norman Baker: The provision might specify the person It is paramount for local officers from the police or in control of the dog, so if I have that wrong I will the local council to have at their disposal the right tools correct it. I absolutely accept my hon. Friend’s point so that they may take action in cases of irresponsible and will reflect on it. dog ownership. But as was made clear when the issue The measures in the Bill go further and allow officers was raised on Second Reading and again in Committee, to make innovative requirements based on the specifics the measures in parts 1 to 4 introduce powers that will of the case they are dealing with, for example by requesting allow exactly the type of early intervention that the new that signage be put up to warn visitors to a property of clauses seek to provide. the presence of a dog, or that a letterbox guard be 683 Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and 15 OCTOBER 2013 Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and 684 Policing Bill Policing Bill [Norman Baker] Norman Baker: I do recognise that. That is a good reason why it is better to have flexible, general legislation fitted. I have genuinely heard nothing during the course rather than specific legislation that then creates loopholes. of the debate to suggest that there is a gap in what is That is what the Opposition, who are well intentioned, proposed in the Bill. would do if they had their way in the construction of The Local Government Association stated in written antisocial behaviour legislation. evidence to the Public Bill Committee: Angela Smith: Will the Minister give way? “The LGA remains to be convinced that separate tools are necessary as no details have been provided of the specific gaps in the provisions for the injunctions, community protection notices Norman Baker: I must not, because I have lots of or public space protection orders that a dog control notice is people to try to reply to. I am sorry. needed to fill.” I hope that I have been able to persuade Opposition We all share the objective of trying to do something Members that the approach put forward in the new about this matter, but Opposition Members seem to clause is already provided for in the Bill. If they were think that a measure cannot be effective if it does not minded to press it, I would invite the House to reject it. have the word “dog” in the title, which is simply wrong. [Interruption.] The hon. Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge Mr Steve Reed: Will the Minister give way? (Angela Smith), who is seeking to intervene while I am trying to respond to her points, proposes to reduce the Norman Baker: I will give way one more time. time delay that can take place following the seizure of a suspected section 1 dog, such as a pit bull terrier, before Mr Reed: It is not just the Opposition who are it is examined by expert witnesses for the defence or making those points; so too are many experienced prosecution to assess whether it is a prohibited dog. I organisations, including the Royal Society for the Prevention understand her concerns about the impact that such of Cruelty to Animals, the Association of Chief Police delays can have on the welfare of dogs. That is why we Officers, the British Veterinary Association, Battersea are committed to bringing forward regulations next Dogs & Cats Home and this House’s Environment, year to make it clear that when the police seize a Food and Rural Affairs Committee. All of those suspected prohibited dog they will not be required to organisations have more experience in this area than kennel it, but need do so only where they are satisfied either the Minister or I have, yet he is not taking their that the situation of dog and owner do not present a views on board. risk to public safety. It is right to give the police this discretion, and that is the aim that we intend to take Norman Baker: The shadow Minister made that point forward. It will be a condition of release, if release in his opening remarks. I have not been a Home Office occurs, that the owner consents to the dog being muzzled Minister for long, but I dealt with dog legislation for and on a lead in public, as well as being microchipped many years in opposition, so I think I know what the and neutered before it can be released back to the legislation says. I have given him an absolute assurance owner. This is to ensure public safety and to prevent that the issues the Opposition are concerned about, as breeding from section 1 dogs. On that basis, we do not am I, such as microchipping and neutering, could all be consider the hon. Lady’s new clause 29 to be necessary. dealt with under the community protection notice. I I now want to deal with the amendments eloquently have given the hon. Member for Liverpool, Wavertree presented by my hon. Friend the Member for Chatham an assurance that those matters can be dealt with very and Aylesford (Tracey Crouch), which seek to extend quickly. Those are the two points that the Opposition the offence in section 3 of the Dangerous Dogs Act are perfectly correct to pursue, and I have given answers 1991 to cover incidents where a dog injures or kills a that I had hoped would satisfy them. I guess the proof protected animal. I entirely understand and sympathise of the pudding is in the eating. As far as I am concerned, with her reason for proposing that measure. She listed the measures they want to deal with the problem that some of the existing legislation, which does have an they, and we, have identified are in the Bill. effect and can be used in certain circumstances, including Notwithstanding that, I understand the concern that, the Animal Welfare Act 2006, the Animals Act 1971, as Labour Members have said, any dog issues may be the Dogs Act 1871, and the Dogs (Protection of Livestock) lost in the breadth of these measures. However, these Act 1953. It is rather unfortunate that the Criminal powers recognise, first, that antisocial behaviour does Damage Act 1971 classifies animals as goods or property not come packaged into distinct areas, and secondly, in this respect. that what matters is whether it can be dealt with quickly I understand the concern of people whose cat is and effectively, which is what the Bill does. The practitioners’ savaged by a dog, but the way forward is to consider manual from DEFRA is the Government’s attempt to other solutions. Instead of more legislation, we want reassure people that these matters will be dealt with better education for owners, training for dogs, and properly. increased awareness among the public and the authorities who can use the new antisocial behaviour powers to Angie Bray: Does the Minister recognise that sometimes address these incidents and help to prevent them before it is not the attacks themselves that cause anxiety but they happen. the intimidating nature of some of the dogs that are I draw my hon. Friend’s attention to particular resources attached to what I would call dangerous owners? That in legislation in respect of horses, which she mentioned. blights the lives of people trying to use the parks. Just The Dangerous Dogs Act would apply in a situation the presence of this intimidating animal with its owner where a dog threatens or attacks a horse and a rider, can do some damage. because the rider is likely to have “reasonable apprehension” 685 Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and 15 OCTOBER 2013 Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and 686 Policing Bill Policing Bill that the dog will injure them, and therefore an offence Esterson, Bill McCarthy, Kerry would be created. My hon. Friend also referred to the Evans, Chris McClymont, Gregg livestock issues that I mentioned earlier. We are keen to Farrelly, Paul McDonald, Andy make sure that other animals are protected. However, as Field, rh Mr Frank McDonnell, John I said, the general nature of the legislation provides Fitzpatrick, Jim McFadden, rh Mr Pat options through, for example, the injunction procedure Flello, Robert McGovern, Alison Flint, rh Caroline McGovern, Jim to see whether there are other avenues that can be taken Flynn, Paul McKechin, Ann to deal with dogs that present a danger to the public Fovargue, Yvonne McKenzie, Mr Iain and, indeed, to other animals. Francis, Dr Hywel McKinnell, Catherine On amendment 142, tabled by the hon. Member for Gardiner, Barry Meacher, rh Mr Michael Penistone and Stocksbridge, I regret that because of the Gilmore, Sheila Meale, Sir Alan lack of time I will have to write to her with a specific Glass, Pat Mearns, Ian response to the point she raises. Glindon, Mrs Mary Miliband, rh Edward Godsiff, Mr Roger Miller, Andrew The actions that this Government are taking in tackling Goggins, rh Paul Moon, Mrs Madeleine dangerous dogs are absolutely right. Everybody in the Goodman, Helen Morden, Jessica House agrees that that needs to happen better than it Greatrex, Tom Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) has done in the past, and I believe the Bill will achieve Greenwood, Lilian Morris, Grahame M. that. The provisions will enable all the dreadful acts that Griffith, Nia (Easington) have been taking place to be tackled in a sensible and Gwynne, Andrew Mudie, Mr George effective way. Hain, rh Mr Peter Munn, Meg Hamilton, Mr David Murphy, rh Paul Mr Steve Reed: I have listened carefully to the Minister, Hamilton, Fabian Murray, Ian but I am afraid I remain unconvinced and we will press Hanson, rh Mr David Nandy, Lisa new clause 3 to a vote. Harman, rh Ms Harriet O’Donnell, Fiona Harris, Mr Tom Onwurah, Chi Question put, That the clause be read a Second time. Havard, Mr Dai Osborne, Sandra The House divided: Ayes 236, Noes 315. Healey, rh John Owen, Albert Hendrick, Mark Perkins, Toby Division No. 100] [4.30 pm Heyes, David Pound, Stephen Hillier, Meg Powell, Lucy AYES Hilling, Julie Qureshi, Yasmin Abbott, Ms Diane Clarke, rh Mr Tom Hodge, rh Margaret Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Abrahams, Debbie Clwyd, rh Ann Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Reed, Mr Jamie Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Coaker, Vernon Hood, Mr Jim Reed, Mr Steve Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Coffey, Ann Hopkins, Kelvin Reeves, Rachel Alexander, Heidi Connarty, Michael Howarth, rh Mr George Reynolds, Emma Ali, Rushanara Cooper, Rosie Hunt, Tristram Reynolds, Jonathan Allen, Mr Graham Cooper, rh Yvette Irranca-Davies, Huw Riordan, Mrs Linda Ashworth, Jonathan Corbyn, Jeremy Jackson, Glenda Ritchie, Ms Margaret Austin, Ian Crausby, Mr David James, Mrs Siân C. Robertson, Angus Bailey, Mr Adrian Creagh, Mary Jamieson, Cathy Robertson, John Bain, Mr William Creasy, Stella Jarvis, Dan Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Balls, rh Ed Cruddas, Jon Johnson, rh Alan Rotheram, Steve Barron, rh Mr Kevin Cryer, John Johnson, Diana Roy, Mr Frank Bayley, Hugh Cunningham, Alex Jones, Graham Roy, Lindsay Beckett, rh Margaret Cunningham, Mr Jim Jones, Helen Ruane, Chris Begg, Dame Anne Cunningham, Sir Tony Jones, Mr Kevan Ruddock, rh Dame Joan Benn, rh Hilary Curran, Margaret Jowell, rh Dame Tessa Sarwar, Anas Berger, Luciana Dakin, Nic Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Sawford, Andy Betts, Mr Clive Danczuk, Simon Keeley, Barbara Seabeck, Alison Blackman-Woods, Roberta Darling, rh Mr Alistair Kendall, Liz Sharma, Mr Virendra Blears, rh Hazel David, Wayne Khan, rh Sadiq Sheerman, Mr Barry Blomfield, Paul Davidson, Mr Ian Lammy, rh Mr David Sheridan, Jim Blunkett, rh Mr David Davies, Geraint Lavery, Ian Shuker, Gavin Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben De Piero, Gloria Lazarowicz, Mark Skinner, Mr Dennis Brennan, Kevin Denham, rh Mr John Leslie, Chris Slaughter, Mr Andy Brown, Lyn Dobson, rh Frank Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma Smith, rh Mr Andrew Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Lewis, Mr Ivan Smith, Angela Brown, Mr Russell Doran, Mr Frank Long, Naomi Smith, Nick Bryant, Chris Doughty, Stephen Love, Mr Andrew Smith, Owen Buck, Ms Karen Dowd, Jim Lucas, Caroline Spellar, rh Mr John Burden, Richard Dromey, Jack Lucas, Ian Stringer, Graham Burnham, rh Andy Dugher, Michael Mactaggart, Fiona Stuart, Ms Gisela Byrne, rh Mr Liam Durkan, Mark Mahmood, Mr Khalid Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Campbell, Mr Alan Eagle, Ms Angela Mahmood, Shabana Tami, Mark Campbell, Mr Ronnie Eagle, Maria Malhotra, Seema Thornberry, Emily Caton, Martin Efford, Clive Mann, John Timms, rh Stephen Champion, Sarah Elliott, Julie Marsden, Mr Gordon Trickett, Jon Chapman, Jenny Ellman, Mrs Louise McCabe, Steve Turner, Karl Clark, Katy Engel, Natascha McCann, Mr Michael Twigg, Derek 687 Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and 15 OCTOBER 2013 Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and 688 Policing Bill Policing Bill Twigg, Stephen Wilson, Phil Gyimah, Mr Sam McCrea, Dr William Vaz, rh Keith Winnick, Mr David Halfon, Robert McIntosh, Miss Anne Vaz, Valerie Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Hames, Duncan McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Walley, Joan Wishart, Pete Hammond, rh Mr Philip McPartland, Stephen Watts, Mr Dave Wright, David Hammond, Stephen Menzies, Mark Weir, Mr Mike Wright, Mr Iain Hands, Greg Mercer, Patrick Whitehead, Dr Alan Tellers for the Ayes: Harper, Mr Mark Metcalfe, Stephen Williams, Hywel Tom Blenkinsop and Harrington, Richard Milton, Anne Williamson, Chris Susan Elan Jones Harris, Rebecca Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Hart, Simon Moore, rh Michael Harvey, Sir Nick Mordaunt, Penny NOES Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Morgan, Nicky Adams, Nigel Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Heald, Oliver Morris, Anne Marie Afriyie, Adam Coffey, Dr Thérèse Heath, Mr David Morris, David Aldous, Peter Collins, Damian Heaton-Harris, Chris Mosley, Stephen Alexander, rh Danny Colvile, Oliver Hemming, John Mowat, David Amess, Mr David Crabb, Stephen Henderson, Gordon Mulholland, Greg Andrew, Stuart Crockart, Mike Hendry, Charles Munt, Tessa Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Davey, rh Mr Edward Herbert, rh Nick Murray, Sheryll Bacon, Mr Richard Davies, David T. C. Hermon, Lady Newmark, Mr Brooks Baker, Norman (Monmouth) Hinds, Damian Newton, Sarah Baker, Steve Davies, Glyn Hoban, Mr Mark Nokes, Caroline Baldwin, Harriett Davies, Philip Hollingbery, George Norman, Jesse Barclay, Stephen Davis, rh Mr David Holloway, Mr Adam Nuttall, Mr David Barker, rh Gregory de Bois, Nick Hopkins, Kris O’Brien, rh Mr Stephen Baron, Mr John Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Horwood, Martin Offord, Dr Matthew Bebb, Guto Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Howell, John Ollerenshaw, Eric Beith, rh Sir Alan Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M. Hughes, rh Simon Opperman, Guy Bellingham, Mr Henry Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Ottaway, rh Richard Benyon, Richard Dorries, Nadine Hunter, Mark Paice, rh Sir James Beresford, Sir Paul Doyle-Price, Jackie Huppert, Dr Julian Parish, Neil Berry, Jake Drax, Richard Hurd, Mr Nick Patel, Priti Bingham, Andrew Duddridge, James Jackson, Mr Stewart Pawsey, Mark Binley, Mr Brian Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain James, Margot Penning, Mike Birtwistle, Gordon Dunne, Mr Philip Jenkin, Mr Bernard Penrose, John Blackman, Bob Ellis, Michael Johnson, Gareth Perry, Claire Blackwood, Nicola Ellison, Jane Johnson, Joseph Phillips, Stephen Boles, Nick Ellwood, Mr Tobias Jones, Andrew Pickles, rh Mr Eric Bone, Mr Peter Elphicke, Charlie Jones, Mr Marcus Pincher, Christopher Bottomley, Sir Peter Eustice, George Kawczynski, Daniel Poulter, Dr Daniel Bradley, Karen Evans, Graham Kelly, Chris Prisk, Mr Mark Brady, Mr Graham Evans, Jonathan Kirby, Simon Pugh, John Brake, rh Tom Evans, Mr Nigel Knight, rh Mr Greg Raab, Mr Dominic Bray, Angie Evennett, Mr David Kwarteng, Kwasi Randall, rh Mr John Brazier, Mr Julian Fabricant, Michael Laing, Mrs Eleanor Reckless, Mark Bridgen, Andrew Fallon, rh Michael Lamb, Norman Redwood, rh Mr John Brine, Steve Farron, Tim Lancaster, Mark Rees-Mogg, Jacob Brokenshire, James Featherstone, Lynne Latham, Pauline Reevell, Simon Brooke, Annette Field, Mark Laws, rh Mr David Reid, Mr Alan Browne, Mr Jeremy Fox,rhDrLiam Leadsom, Andrea Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Bruce, Fiona Francois, rh Mr Mark Lee, Jessica Rosindell, Andrew Bruce, rh Sir Malcolm Freeman, George Lee, Dr Phillip Rudd, Amber Buckland, Mr Robert Freer, Mike Leech, Mr John Ruffley, Mr David Burley, Mr Aidan Fullbrook, Lorraine Leigh, Sir Edward Russell, Sir Bob Burns, Conor Fuller, Richard Leslie, Charlotte Rutley, David Burns, rh Mr Simon Garnier, Sir Edward Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Sanders, Mr Adrian Burrowes, Mr David Garnier, Mark Lewis, Brandon Sandys, Laura Burt, Lorely George, Andrew Lewis, Dr Julian Scott, Mr Lee Byles, Dan Gibb, Mr Nick Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Selous, Andrew Cable, rh Vince Gilbert, Stephen Lilley, rh Mr Peter Shannon, Jim Cairns, Alun Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Lloyd, Stephen Sharma, Alok Campbell, Mr Gregory Glen, John Lord, Jonathan Simpson, David Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Goldsmith, Zac Loughton, Tim Simpson, Mr Keith Carmichael, Neil Goodwill, Mr Robert Luff, Peter Skidmore, Chris Carswell, Mr Douglas Graham, Richard Lumley, Karen Smith, Miss Chloe Cash, Mr William Grant, Mrs Helen Macleod, Mary Smith, Henry Chishti, Rehman Gray, Mr James Main, Mrs Anne Smith, Julian Chope, Mr Christopher Grayling, rh Chris Maude, rh Mr Francis Smith, Sir Robert Clappison, Mr James Green, rh Damian May, rh Mrs Theresa Soames, rh Nicholas Clark, rh Greg Greening, rh Justine Maynard, Paul Soubry, Anna Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Griffiths, Andrew McCartney, Jason Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Clegg, rh Mr Nick Gummer, Ben McCartney, Karl Spencer, Mr Mark 689 Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and 15 OCTOBER 2013 Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and 690 Policing Bill Policing Bill Stanley, rh Sir John Walker, Mr Charles Although provision for such orders has been in statute Stephenson, Andrew Walker, Mr Robin for 10 years, and there are many cases in which they Stevenson, John Wallace, Mr Ben have been used effectively, it is clear that the current Stewart, Bob Walter, Mr Robert regime in the Sexual Offences Act 2003 is too inflexible. Stewart, Iain Ward, Mr David Instead of supporting the protection of vulnerable children, Streeter, Mr Gary Watkinson, Dame Angela it places unreasonable obstacles in the way of keeping Stride, Mel Weatherley, Mike Stuart, Mr Graham Webb, Steve them safe. The new sexual harm prevention order and Stunell, rh Sir Andrew Wharton, James sexual risk order will simplify and strengthen the current Sturdy, Julian Wheeler, Heather powers available to the police, rebalancing the scales of Swales, Ian White, Chris justice in favour of children and vulnerable adults. Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Whittaker, Craig In many respects, the approach we are taking to the Swire, rh Mr Hugo Whittingdale, Mr John reform of civil prevention orders under the Sexual Syms, Mr Robert Wiggin, Bill Offences Act mirrors our approach to antisocial behaviour Tapsell, rh Sir Peter Williams, Mr Mark powers, and as in that case, the Bill sweeps away the Thornton, Mike Williams, Roger Thurso, John Williams, Stephen complex and bureaucratic array of powers that put Timpson, Mr Edward Williamson, Gavin unnecessary obstacles in the way of front-line professionals Tomlinson, Justin Wilson, Mr Rob taking fast and effective action to protect vulnerable Tredinnick, David Wollaston, Dr Sarah people and communities. With the ASBO, however, Truss, Elizabeth Wright, Jeremy there was an additional problem because the existing Turner, Mr Andrew Wright, Simon powers simply do not work. ASBOs can take many Tyrie, Mr Andrew Young, rh Sir George months to obtain, and, once secured, most are breached Uppal, Paul Zahawi, Nadhim with more than four in 10 breached repeatedly. We need Vaizey, Mr Edward powers that will not only offer fast and immediate Vara, Mr Shailesh Tellers for the Noes: protection for those at risk of harm, but drive a change Vickers, Martin Gavin Barwell and in behaviour and provide a long-term solution. Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Jenny Willott In her article in The Independent last month, the hon. Question accordingly negatived. Member for Ashfield (Gloria De Piero) bemoaned the fact that the ASBO is “much maligned”. She has recently Third Reading moved on from the Home Affairs brief, on which I congratulate her, but I put it to her and to her colleagues 4.44 pm who remain on the Front Benches that it is also time to move on from the ASBO. The ASBO is maligned for the Damian Green: I beg to move, That the Bill be now good reason that it has been ineffective, and the Bill will read the Third time. rightly see the back of it. I take the opportunity to welcome for his last hurrah on this Bill the right hon. Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson), As well as ensuring that front-line professionals have before he moves to the equally exciting field of immigration the powers they need, our reforms place the victim at policy.It is an area that—I say this with some experience—I the heart of the response to antisocial behaviour. The know he will find life enhancing. community remedy will be enhanced if it is developed locally within a national framework. Out-of-court disposals The Bill has been much improved by the scrutiny of must be seen to be a fair and effective way of dealing this House. We often beat ourselves up—and are beaten with offending behaviour if they are to have the confidence up by people outside—about the level and quality of of the community. To achieve that, each and every one scrutiny we apply to legislation in this House, but I should have a punitive, restorative or rehabilitative element, think the Bill is now in better shape than it was when it or a combination of those. I commend my hon. and entered Committee, and for that I thank hon. Members learned Friend the Member for Sleaford and North from across the House. Foremost among the improvements Hykeham (Stephen Phillips) for his comments about is the insertion of a whole new part of the Bill at the strengthening the provisions of the Bill to that end. instigation of my hon. Friend the Member for Oxford Out-of-court disposals must be used appropriately, and West and Abingdon (Nicola Blackwood), and 67 other as I have repeatedly said, they should only be used as right hon. and hon. Members from across the House the first response to low-level offending. When the who supported new clause 5. I pay tribute to my hon. seriousness of an offence, or the frequency of the offending Friend for the energy and perseverance she has shown behaviour, warrants prosecution, prosecution is what in pursuit of her Childhood Lost campaign. should happen. In 2012-13, well over 1,000 people were convicted in this country of offences relating to child sexual exploitation. Under the Bill, victims of antisocial behaviour will be It is a horrible and repulsive crime and we owe it to the able to take advantage of the community trigger. No victims, and to all children, to do all we can to eliminate one should have to suffer repeated incidents of antisocial it. Prosecutions and convictions are essential, but by behaviour because the police, local authority or landlord then, of course, the damage is done—or, as my hon. repeatedly fails to respond to the victim’s call for action. Friend put it, a childhood has been lost. We must The community trigger will give victims the power to therefore do more to prevent such horrendous crimes demand a case review. That case review must assess from occurring in the first place. whether further action is required, and it can result in Civil orders, which help protect the public from the relevant authority being required to take appropriate individuals whose behaviour means there is a risk that action. That is real accountability. It gives ordinary they will sexually abuse or otherwise sexually harm people real power to compel the authorities to respond others, play an important part in our prevention strategy. in a way that will stop them being victimised. 691 Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and 15 OCTOBER 2013 Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and 692 Policing Bill Policing Bill [Damian Green] and taken steps to deal with it. Given that a huge proportion of people who are stopped under schedule 7 After the debate on Report and the House’s clear are ethnic minorities—it is massively disproportionate— rejection of new clause 3, I hope we can move on from does the Minister agree that similar actions should be the debate about dog control notices. Hon. Members on taken on schedule 7 stops? both sides of the House agree on the need for more effective preventive powers to tackle irresponsible dog Damian Green: The sensible thing to do is to wait for owners. The Department for Environment, Food and Mr Anderson’s report and then decide what changes, if Rural Affairs has published the draft of a comprehensive any, are needed. Let us look at the evidence and then practitioners manual that shows how the new antisocial decide what changes are necessary, because the police behaviour powers in the Bill can be used to tackle need the power to stop, question and, when necessary, dog-related problems. I put it to the House that the time detain and search people travelling through airports has come for all parties, including animal welfare groups, and ports if they are to be able to determine whether an the police, local authorities and others, to work together individual is, or has been, involved in terrorism. That to ensure that the provisions in the Bill deliver the power is essential to the prevention of terrorism because outcomes we all want. it enables the police to detect and disrupt individuals who might be travelling for the purposes of planning, Lady Hermon: The Minister will know very well that financing and training for terrorist attacks. responsibility for policing and justice was devolved to The amendments to schedule 7 are in line with the the Northern Ireland Assembly in 2010, but bits of Government’s continuing commitment to ensure that clause 98, on dangerous dogs, appear to apply to Northern respect for individual freedoms is balanced appropriately Ireland. I do not understand why some bits and pieces and carefully against the need to reduce the threat of apply to Northern Ireland when other bits and pieces terrorism to the British public and British interests do not, but on the bits that apply, what consultation overseas. I have no doubt that the other place will want was there with the Northern Ireland Department of to examine the provisions particularly closely, including Justice and the Northern Ireland Department of Agriculture in the light of Mr Anderson’s report, but we should wait and Rural Development, which is responsible for dogs? until we have all had the opportunity to look at the Damian Green: I am happy to assure the hon. Lady report before rushing to make a judgment on whether that, throughout the passage of the Bill and on many we have the balance right. other matters, there has been regular, continuous contact I should say a few words about the much expanded at all levels. I see the Northern Ireland Minister of part 11, which deals with extradition. The ability to Justice regularly, and our officials are in contact on extradite people to and from this country is an important detailed matters. We work closely with the Northern component of our criminal justice system. Those who Ireland Department of Justice. commit serious crimes should not be able to evade justice by crossing international borders to escape arrest. Julie Hilling: The Minister says he hopes the charities We owe it to the victims of crime to ensure that there and so on get behind the Bill. It is not too late for him to are efficient and effective arrangements in place to reconsider and listen to what they say on how to improve prevent justice being denied in that way. the Bill rather than asking them to support measures that they believe are second best. Nick de Bois (Enfield North) (Con): The Minister says that the Bill was improved in Committee and on Damian Green: I sense the hon. Lady is trying to lure the Floor of the House. While I am sure that that is the me into a debate she has just had with my hon. Friend case for most of the Bill, he is well aware that we did not the Minister. I heard his speech, in which he replied have the opportunity to scrutinise Government new fully to the points made by her and others. She says it is clauses on extradition, or discuss the amendments tabled not too late, but, in practical terms, it is—we have just by my hon. Friend the Member for Esher and Walton had a Division and have moved on to Third Reading. (Mr Raab) and 28 other hon. Members from across the [Interruption.] There will indeed be debates in other House. How confident is the Minister that we are places. providing protections that British citizens have lacked The examination and detention of David Miranda at in the past? Heathrow airport in August has put a renewed spotlight on the changes we are making in the Bill to the powers Damian Green: I am conscious of my hon. Friend’s in schedule 7 to the Terrorism Act 2000. Schedule 7 particular constituency interest, which he has pursued remains a key part of the UK’s border security diligently. I am sure that he and I agree that our extradition arrangements and is vital to preserving the safety of the arrangements need to be fair and proportionate. It is a public. I welcome the renewed scrutiny of the provisions. big step to extradite a person from one country to It is right that, as part of his function of reporting on another. The impact on family life and employment will the operation of the Terrorism Acts, the independent be far greater than in cases where a person is prosecuted reviewer of terrorism legislation, David Anderson QC, in his or her own country of residence. We should not, has decided to investigate and report on the exercise of therefore, be hoovering up British residents and dispatching the powers in Mr Miranda’s case. The Government will them to all corners of Europe to spend months in carefully consider his report when it is received. prison awaiting trial for minor offences. I am sure he would agree with that. That is why in July I recommended Dr Huppert: We had a slightly truncated debate on to the House that the United Kingdom opt back into that earlier. The Home Secretary has rightly expressed the European arrest warrant, but only on condition that concern about the use of stop and search—it we first rectify a number of serious weaknesses in the disproportionately affects the ethnic minority population— way it has operated. That is what we are now doing. 693 Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and 15 OCTOBER 2013 Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and 694 Policing Bill Policing Bill Part 11 introduces a new proportionality bar to I welcome the extension of the role of the Independent extradition to prevent people being extradited for trivial Police Complaints Commission to private contractors offences. It also introduces a new bar to extradition and staff working for police authorities, particularly where the prosecuting authorities in the requesting state because my right hon. Friend the Member for Normanton, have not yet taken a decision to charge and try the Pontefract and Castleford (Yvette Cooper) proposed accused. That will stop extradited persons languishing such a measure last year. I am pleased that the Government in a foreign jail while an investigation takes place. We have taken it up. Again, we would like to see further will amend the Extradition Act 2003 so that a British action, but I welcome the provision none the less. citizen cannot be extradited for conduct that is not a I welcome the measures on terrorism and on terrorists crime in this country. travelling abroad and the long-overdue measures on These are all important new safeguards that will help forced marriage, which, in my view and that of the to ensure that our extradition arrangements with other Committee, will strengthen the legal basis for tackling EU member states are fair both to the victims of crime this immensely challenging problem. and the accused. They are not particularly difficult or I particularly welcome new clause 5 and the measures onerous. They could and should have been included in on sexual harm prevention notices, which my hon. the Extradition Act 2003. To leave them out was a Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull North gave mistake, which is being rectified by this Government. a fair wind yesterday. Their introduction to the Bill was This is a significant piece of legislation, one much a positive development, and I am pleased that the hon. enhanced as it has made its way through the House. It Member for Oxford West and Abingdon (Nicola will help us to cut crime further, to protect the public Blackwood) brought them forward, with support from and to extend the modernisation of the police. I commend across the House. the Bill to the House. I welcome the measures on witness protection and, as far as they go—I will return to this shortly—the measures 4.58 pm on dogs, although we think they could have gone further. Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab): I thank the Minister I particularly welcome the measures against dog attacks for thanking me for my service as shadow spokesperson in the home. on police. It is a privilege to move on to another shadow I welcome the policing pay review body, which we will Home Office role. He and I appear to have job swapped give a fair wind, but we need to look again at the in the course of our time on the Bill. I thank my hon. commissioning of victims’ services by police and crime Friend the Member for Ashfield (Gloria De Piero), who commissioners, as I still worry that it will lead to the has now joined the shadow Cabinet, for her work on the fragmentation of victims’ services across the country. Bill. I thank my hon. Friends the Members for Birmingham, Erdington (Jack Dromey), for Croydon North (Mr Reed) We therefore welcome several measures in the Bill. and for Warrington North (Helen Jones), who joined We challenged them in Committee, but they remain and the shadow Home Office team and worked on the Bill in broadly have the Opposition’s support. I have to say, the past two days. I thank my hon. Friend the Member however, that I do not welcome the changes to the for Kingston upon Hull North (Diana Johnson) for her ASBO regime or the developments on the injunctions work on Report. I also thank my hon. Friend the to prevent nuisance and annoyance. I cannot for the life Member for Sedgefield (Phil Wilson) for his efforts in of me understand why a party that, during my formative Committee. political years, prided itself on being the party of law I thank the Minister for his consideration during the and order continues to bring forward measures that Bill’s progress and the Minister of State, Home Department, reduce the ability of the police and communities to the hon. Member for Lewes (Norman Baker), for his tackle elements that need tackling in our communities. consideration over the last couple of days. I also thank We have seen it on DNA and CCTV, and we are now the former Ministers, the hon. Member for Taunton seeing it on ASBOs. The changes are a reprehensible Deane (Mr Browne), and, in particular, the hon. Member and retrograde step. for Poole (Mr Syms), whom I think, in a challenging On the same theme, I do not welcome the same Committee full of very different views, did his job with party’s introducing thresholds for low-value shoplifting, integrity; I personally was sorry to see him leave his post which we had a strong discussion about in Committee. in the recent reshuffle. Members of the Committee, When the Association of Convenience Stores, which some of whom are present today, know that it was an represents 33,000 shopkeepers across the country, is interesting and exciting time, and I thank them also. worried about such criminality and the changes relating Third Reading is about what is in a Bill, not what to low-value shoplifting, the party of law and order—as might have been, and with that in mind, I will first was, but not anymore—needs to give some serious welcome those aspects of the Bill with which the Opposition consideration to the matter. agree. We welcome the instigation of the College of We support aspects of the Bill, then, but firmly do Policing, which is an opportunity to provide training not support other aspects. On balance—to let you into and investment and to set standards. We perhaps want a secret, Madam Deputy Speaker—Labour Members to see it develop in different ways from the Government, will give the Bill an unopposed Third Reading, but we but it is a positive and forward-looking initiative, and I will seek to take those matters forward. As I have said, wish both the chair and the chief officer well in their task. we have to deal with what is in the Bill on Third I welcome the measures on firearms and the intent to Reading. We have identified important shortcomings, supply, which, as I mentioned in Committee, had their but we will grant the Third Reading. The Government genesis even before the last general election. These must reflect further on the issues that have been debated, important provisions will help to reduce the supply of which have been raised by Members of all parties. Some guns, and therefore deaths and criminality. issues have seen cross-party co-operation—for example, 695 Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and 15 OCTOBER 2013 Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and 696 Policing Bill Policing Bill [Mr David Hanson] it is broke, it needs fixing. We can argue about how best to fix it, but I think that the Government proposals will on the importance of dog notices, on the points about strengthen our response to antisocial behaviour. covert policing raised by my hon. Friend the Member The Minister and the House will be pleased to hear for Birmingham, Erdington and on how to protect shop that I recently attended a residents’ meeting in Chatham workers and other staff from assaults at work. Domestic at which we discussed the significantly high levels of violence and gun control are other serious issues debated antisocial behaviour in one small part of a ward. The in Committee on which I hope the other place will police told residents that new provisions were going reflect carefully. Another issue to be considered is that through Parliament as they spoke that would enable of legal highs and reducing their availability in our them to deal much more effectively with this problem in communities. the future, including by ensuring some sort of community While we are giving fair wind to the Bill, I hope that punishment. We have introduced what I consider to be the other place will look carefully at the improvements sensible measures to ensure that people who commit we have suggested and listen not just to what Members crimes do not go into the stocks, but I can tell the have said today about dog notices, but to what all Minister that my residents were very keen to put some organisations have said about them. We want the other of those perpetrators of antisocial behaviour into the place to look at bringing forward measures to tackle stocks. I am pleased that we have amended the Bill to covert policing, to protect people from assaults at work provide for proportionality of response, but I am also and further to reduce and stop the potential for gun use, pleased that there will be an opportunity to impose for domestic violence and for legal highs. community punishments such as cleaning up all the I thank the Minister for his consideration in Committee, litter or getting rid of all the graffiti. That will be greatly but we think there is more to be done. We think that we welcomed in parts of my constituency. have been constructive on Second Reading, in Committee I have no doubt that the House of Lords will improve and on Report about the changes that need to be made. the Bill further through its precise scrutiny of specific Ultimately, we think that the issues I have mentioned clauses, and that it will consider some of the matters that are not covered by the Bill now will be part of it raised by the right hon. Member for Delyn, including following consideration in the House of Lords. legal highs and aspects of the dog legislation with which I have enjoyed my role as shadow policing Minister we have dealt at such length this afternoon, not least the and move on now to shadow Minister on immigration. sentencing issues. I thank my colleagues for their support over the three I am pleased to have played my part in the Bill’s years in opposition and one year in government in passage so far, although I am not sure that the Ministers which I have discharged this role. I look forward to and the former Whip would be so delighted by my watching from afar as this Bill is further improved active participation. I think that this is a good Bill, and following consideration by the other place. I look forward to its return from the House of Lords.

5.7 pm 5.11 pm Tracey Crouch: It was a pleasure to serve on the Committee that considered this Bill. It was indeed the Mr Syms: It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member first Public Bill Committee on which I served. After my for Chatham and Aylesford (Tracey Crouch). She has active participation, I am in no doubt that it may well done valuable work in raising the issue of bullying, be my last! I was pleased to play a role and I think that which blights many children’s lives and is a very important we Back Benchers sometimes underestimate and undervalue subject for politicians to consider. the work we do in scrutinising legislation, which is an This is a Christmas tree of a Bill. When a Bill has so incredibly important aspect of our job. I am proud to many aspects it makes it difficult to provide enough have been part of a team that has, as the Minister said, time for discussion of important issues. However, I improved the Bill before it goes to the other place. think that it has been improved during its passage so I am particularly proud to have made some progress far, and it has certainly been given a great deal of on the issue of bullying—a subject on which I feel scrutiny. I always enjoy the exchanges between the right strongly, and I believe that the House should continue hon. Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson) and the Minister to feel strongly about it. It is an issue that affects many for Policing and Criminal Justice, which are sometimes children and their parents throughout the country.Building robust, and certainly—in the good parliamentary tradition advice on bullying into Home Office guidance is a very provide answers to the question of why a Government positive step forward. I would have liked to see more, and an Opposition take particular points of view. but that is for another day. We can continue to discuss The main changes that have been made relate to online safety and cyber-bullying via the Select Committee extradition. There was a fair degree of consensus on the on Home Affairs and the Select Committee on Culture, Bill, which was why at one point we had to slow down a Media and Sport, and I have no doubt that we will little so that the extradition clauses could be tabled. The come back to those issues at some future date. Committee had also considered the issue of extradition. As I said many times in Committee, I have a great In recent years, we have seen a number of examples of deal of respect for the right hon. Member for Delyn why the European arrest warrant is sometimes a good (Mr Hanson), but I disagree that we should be harking thing for Britain. We have seen gangsters extradited back to the halcyon days of ASBOs. Although they from Spain very quickly, sometimes within hours, and might have started off as a very good measure for identified. One can understand why the Home Secretary tackling antisocial behaviour, the simple truth is that is minded to opt back into the arrest warrant, following the breach rates are far too high. Clearly, then, because an opt-out, subject to reassurances. 697 Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and 15 OCTOBER 2013 Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and 698 Policing Bill Policing Bill However, we are also aware of many constituency my hon. Friend the Minister in his maiden speech in his cases in which people have not been treated so well, and new role. He highlighted that we must not allow injunctions human rights have not been dealt with according to the to prevent nuisance and annoyance to good old British tradition of allowing a someone his “become a means of targeting young people simply for being day in court. People have been whipped out of the young people.”—[>Official Report, 14 October 2013; Vol. 568, country somewhere abroad, have spent a period in c. 541.] prison, and have ended up either not being charged or That is right. I am sure that the Government would not being acquitted. It is a pity that we did not have an want that to happen. We must ensure that it does not. opportunity to explore that more fully today, although I However, the breadth of the IPNA still concerns me. know that a good many Members will be doing so. Of What counts as behaviour capable of causing nuisance course, the House of Lords is stuffed full of experts— or annoyance? I think that some draft guidance is going lawyers and others who are au fait with the issues—and out. That needs to work. IPNAs should not be used to I am sure that there will be proper scrutiny in the other stop reasonable, trivial or benign behaviours that have place. not caused and are not likely to cause harm to victims I thank the Members who served on the Committee, or communities. Guidance can be misinterpreted and I and I thank the Ministers—including the hon. Member hope that their lordships will look further at that issue. for Taunton Deane (Mr Browne)—for their contribution. We must also ensure that any positive requirements We have considered some important issues, including granted are practicable and will not force people into a antisocial behaviour, which blights many of our position where they simply cannot do what they are constituencies, and the National Crime Agency, which I required to do and hence breach the IPNA. think will be a great addition to crime-fighting, particularly I remain concerned about the naming and shaming across borders. Let us hope that they are considered issue. Judges should do that only where it is necessary. further, and that we receive the reassurances on extradition We should have legislation to deal with that. Failing that I think the House needs. I think that our constituents that, the guidance must be expressly clear, but I hope and the House will welcome many of those developments. that their lordships will look more carefully at that. On eviction, the Joint Committee on Human Rights Several hon. Members rose— noted “the seriousness of riot-related offences”, Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. but correctly questioned whether we need a special rule There are two Members left to speak. Given that the for riot-related antisocial behaviour, because it looks debate will end at 5.30 pm, I hope that they will agree to like share the remaining time, and that each will speak for “a punishment rather than a genuine means of preventing harm”. seven or eight minutes. It punishes the entire family. I was pleased that my hon. Friend the Minister told the House that he would reflect 5.13 pm on the issue. I hope that he will do so in the right direction. Dr Huppert: I am sure that we can do that, Madam Deputy Speaker. It seems positively generous, given On schedule 7 to the Terrorism Act 2000, I was some of the discussions that we have had today. I am pleased to hear the Minister make some commitments, very glad that we agreed yesterday to extend the debate having looked at David Anderson’s recommendations. to a second day, although I think that we could have That will take us forward. I am pleased that the Government used the time more productively. saw the problem with the existing legislation before it became a massive media story. However, the Government There is clearly a great deal of common ground, and can go a lot further. I have tried to itemise a series of the scrutiny process has clearly been useful. It began amendments that would make a substantial difference. with pre-legislative scrutiny by the Home Affairs Committee. The time has already been reduced from nine hours to The Bill was examined very carefully, and I commend six. However, we should go further. We should get rid of the Government for that. A great deal has been added the idea of holding people without reasonable suspicion. since then, but it was good to start in that way. One thing we do know is that, with all the people who I think that the large disagreement that remains ultimately have been convicted after being held, there has been comes down to whether we think that antisocial behaviour intelligence ahead of that. I am told that not on a single orders were an effective solution. I very much think that occasion has someone been stopped and searched, they were not effective. Yesterday, we heard that they effectively randomly, without suspicion, and been convicted. were not effective in terms of breaches and that young Therefore, if it is not working, we do not need it to be people often used them as a badge of honour. We have sure that we are convicting people. There is a series of also heard that the public do not think that they were processes—the right to silence, the right to a lawyer—which effective. Last year, about 8% of people in an Angus should be taken further in another place. Reid poll said that ASBOs were an effective way of I am pleased that the Government have shown reducing antisocial behaviour. Therefore, I am pleased throughout the passage of the Bill, from pre-legislative that we are moving away from them. Unlike the shadow scrutiny to now, that they are listening and will reflect. I Minister, I am pleased that we are moving from sounding hope that that will continue in the other place and that tough on antisocial behaviour to trying to reduce it. this can be the right sort of Bill that helps us to deal There is a difference between the two. with the genuine problem of antisocial behaviour, but I still have a number of concerns that I hope their also protects, indeed enhances, civil liberties by retreating lordships will have a chance to consider. I hope that the from some of the things that the previous Government Government will reconsider those issues during the passage introduced—antisocial behaviour orders, schedule 7 to of the Bill in the Lords. I was pleased by the attitude of the Terrorism Act and much more. 699 Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and 15 OCTOBER 2013 Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and 700 Policing Bill Policing Bill 5.18 pm absolutely plain, at least in England and Wales, that ASBOs are not working to control antisocial behaviour. Stephen Phillips (Sleaford and North Hykeham) (Con): The poll to which I referred yesterday and to which the I do not wish to detain the House for any great period. I hon. Member for Cambridge has referred today found had the great privilege and honour of serving on the that the vast majority of people in this country do not Bill Committee with my hon. Friend the Member for see ASBOs as an effective way of tackling antisocial Poole (Mr Syms), who was not always given an easy behaviour. The position in Northern Ireland may be time by those whom he was whipping, even on his own different, but the reality is that whichever party was in Benches. As a number of hon. Members have done, I government, this issue had to be grappled with. I am pay tribute to the proceedings in the Bill Committee. It pleased the Government have done so and have brought was a great pleasure of course to work with the right forward measures to deal with antisocial behaviour that hon. Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson) and with the are largely welcome on both sides of the House. Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice and the hon. Member for Taunton Deane (Mr Browne), who was As the Bill leaves the House, there are great sadnesses. also taking the Bill through the Committee. One of them is that we are yet to have a proper debate The Bill has shown the House at its best. It has been on the extradition provisions. We have had the Scott improved throughout the Bill Committee, both by Baker report, yet that has never been debated at length Opposition amendments that the Government have taken in this House. My hon. Friends the Members for Enfield on board—they have brought changes to the Bill before North (Nick de Bois) and for Esher and Walton (Mr Raab) the House during Report—and amendments tabled by have repeatedly sought to have a proper debate on Government Back Benchers, which the Government extradition, and it remains a matter of great sadness to have also taken into account. I want to pay particular me—and, I know, a number of other colleagues—that tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Chatham we have not yet had that debate. I therefore hope that, and Aylesford (Tracey Crouch) for her work during the as this Bill leaves the House with these effectively undebated passage of the Bill, which a number of us were pleased provisions relating to extradition, they will receive a to support and which has led to the vast improvement great deal of scrutiny in the other place. of the Bill before it leaves this place. When my right hon. Friend the Minister opened the I am grateful to the right hon. Member for Delyn for Third Reading debate he pointed out that one of the indicating he will not divide the House on Third Reading, things this Bill will do is put the victim at the absolute but insofar as there is any difference between the two heart of tackling antisocial behaviour. That is greatly to sides of the House on the Bill, it appears principally to be welcomed. I had some concerns about the way in centre on whether ASBOs have been a good thing. I which community remedies were going to be dealt with understand that there is politics around this and the in the Bill, but the Government have listened to the Labour party is deeply attached to the idea, but as I concerns I and a number of others had around how pointed out in our debate yesterday, whether or not those provisions were to be interpreted and whether or ASBOs were originally effective, as matters now stand not guidance should be given. That is one of the ways in they have turned out not to be effective at all. As the which the Bill has been improved, and it serves to show hon. Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert) has pointed this House in its best light. out, they have become a badge of honour for some The Government have listened and brought forward teenagers, and the breach rates of ASBOs among teenagers measures designed to improve the Bill, so that when it is in particular have risen to such levels that they have rolled out across the country, it tackles the things it is proved completely ineffective at controlling antisocial designed to tackle. I have paid a number of tributes behaviour. It is therefore entirely right that the Government already, but may I pay a final one? It is fair to say that have moved to tackle this issue—as, I say to the right the officials at the Home Office and the Department for hon. Member for Delyn, I suspect that that would have Environment, Food and Rural Affairs were given a been the position even if his party were in government. great deal of work to do by the Bill Committee during the passage of this Bill, and I am sure that my right hon. Lady Hermon: We had to wait and wait impatiently Friend the Minister would wish to join me in congratulating for years for the Labour party to introduce ASBOs in them on all the work they did. As this Bill goes to the Northern Ireland, and we were very grateful indeed other place for further consideration, I can say that, in when we had them extended to Northern Ireland and its drafting and the way in which it has been improved, we have found them very effective. it is, in my short tenure in this House, one of the best Bills the House has considered. Stephen Phillips: I hear what the hon. Lady says, but the breach rates among teenagers have in some places Question put and agreed to. reached as high as 90% and in those circumstances it is Bill accordingly read the Third time and passed. 701 15 OCTOBER 2013 Deep Sea Mining Bill (Ways and 702 Means) Deep Sea Mining Bill (Ways and Means) Lady Hermon: I was particularly struck by the Minister’s phrase that the Bill will benefit “British companies” and allow them to exploit the deep sea bed. The Bill runs to 5.24 pm only two clauses, but does it contain a clause that I have The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth not noticed which reduces those who can mine the deep Office (Mr Hugo Swire): I beg to move, sea bed around England, Wales and Northern Ireland—but That, for the purposes of any Act resulting from the Deep Sea not Scotland—to British companies only? Mining Bill, it is expedient to authorise: (1) the imposition of charges in connection with licences Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. granted as a result of the Act, and Before the Minister answers, it may be helpful if I (2) the payment of sums into the Consolidated Fund. remind the House that we are not discussing the Bill. The House debated the Bill on Friday 6 September This is about the charging regime for the licences; the and it received its Second Reading unopposed. I pay debate is on the Ways and Means motion. I fear that we tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for South East are in danger of debating the Bill, which would not be Cornwall (Sheryll Murray) for her work on the Bill thus in order this evening. I know that the Minister is trying far and to Members from across the House who took to keep in order. part in the debate. The former Under-Secretary of State Mr Swire: I am most grateful to you for that ruling, for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, my hon. Friend Madam Deputy Speaker. I would normally give the the Member for North East Bedfordshire (Alistair Burt), hon. Member for North Down (Lady Hermon) as signalled the Government’s support for the Bill on straight an answer as I possibly could, but your injunction Second Reading, and in order for the Bill to progress to prevents me from doing so, so I will continue my Committee it is necessary for a Ways and Means resolution speech. to be agreed by the House. As I have said, this motion allows for charges to be The country as a whole will benefit, too, from the imposed in connection with licences granted as a result associated revenue, supply chain jobs and science and of the Act. Under the Act, licences would be granted technology development. I therefore commend the motion for the exploration or exploitation of any of the certain to the House. mineral types for which the International Seabed Authority 5.29 pm has regulations—currently, those are polymetallic nodules, polymetallic sulphides and ferromanganese cobalt-rich Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I had hoped to crusts. The licence would be specific to a particular area intervene on the Minister before he sat down. I shall of the deep sea bed and it would not have effect until the keep closely to the parameters you have outlined, Madam ISA issued a corresponding contract to the same applicant. Deputy Speaker, but I have a question about the Northern The application fee for an exploration licence currently Ireland Assembly. The Bill will extend to England, stands at £10,000. Wales and Northern Ireland. Has there been any interest from companies in Northern Ireland to obtain licences Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind): Have mining for deep sea mining and will there be close control from companies expressed any interest in exploiting the deep the Northern Ireland Assembly? sea bed around the coast of Northern Ireland? The Bill extends to Northern Ireland but not to Scotland, as is Mr Swire: I am most grateful to the hon. Gentleman helpfully explained in the explanatory notes. but I fear that I would be under the same injunction from you, Madam Deputy Speaker, were I to debate Mr Swire: I am not aware that there has been any exploration around the sea in Northern Ireland. There such interest, but, as the hon. Lady says, the new will be an opportunity to explore these matters further licensing regime applies to Northern Ireland as much as in Committee; the motion is about allowing the Bill to it does to anywhere else. Of course, all this motion is proceed in Committee. doing is committing the Bill to Committee, where she will have a chance to use her forensic powers of examination Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Mr Shannon, to tease that and other information out. if you could stand up and thank the Minister for his As I was saying, the application fee for an exploration intervention and clarification, that would help us. licence stands at £10,000. The company then pays an annual fee for three years to continue to hold the Jim Shannon: I thank the Minister for his clarification licence; those fees are £15,000 for the first year, £25,000 on those matters and stand graciously admonished. for the second year and £25,000 for the third year. Madam Deputy Speaker: Thank you for your assistance, Those are substantial sums; indeed the fee for an application Mr Shannon, as the Minister would otherwise have to the ISA is $500,000. Those involved are not small-scale spoken twice. companies but businesses that are prepared to make significant investments in the search for minerals on the Question put and agreed to. deep sea bed. Two licences have been issued under the Deep Sea Mining (Temporary Provisions) Act 1981, PETITIONS and should this Bill become law we hope it will encourage other companies to apply.The fees go into the Consolidated Elections in Zimbabwe Fund. The ability of the UK Government to issue these licences, in a manner that is fully compliant with 5.31 pm international law, will ensure that British companies Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab): I rise to present a benefit from the opportunities available in this new petition on behalf of 68 of my constituents and people industry. The country as a whole will benefit, too. living near Slough. 703 Deep Sea Mining Bill (Ways and 15 OCTOBER 2013 Deep Sea Mining Bill (Ways and 704 Means) Means) [Fiona Mactaggart] The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urges the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills to I thank the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and support residents of Blaxhall in their request to Royal Mail to Commonwealth Affairs for writing to me about the replace the post box. issue before I presented the petition and want to tell the And the Petitioners remain, etc. House how important my constituents, and largely those [P001227] of Zimbabwean origin, believe the petition to be. The Save Coniston and Hawkshead GP Surgeries The petition states: Campaigns The Petition of the supporters of Zimbabweans who love 5.34 pm peace, resident in the UK, Declares that the Petitioners believe that elections held in Tim Farron (Westmorland and Lonsdale) (LD): I Zimbabwe this summer were not free, peaceful and fair; further wish to present petitions on behalf of residents of the that the Mugabe regime has a long history of manipulating the Hawkshead area and of the Coniston area—two separate entire process including pre-election, during voting and post-election petitions calling for the same thing, the retention of and in 2008 Mugabe refused to accept the results in which his their two GP surgeries. I present the petitions on behalf party was heavily defeated, he intimidated people, battered and of 928 people in the Coniston area and 1,228 people in killed MDC supporters before claiming victory; further that the the Hawkshead area. 2013 elections have again been marked with massive irregularities and incomplete participation and there are serious questions The petitioners declare that they believe that the GP about the credibility of the elections due to the number of surgeries in Hawkshead and Coniston in Cumbria will irregularities both in the run-up to the ballot and on polling day. close unless the Government’s funding formula is changed The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons to support rural practices, and further declare that the makes the world aware that the 2013 Zimbabwean election results petitioners believe that the GP surgeries in Hawkshead are not credible and are not an expression of the will of the and in Coniston are vital to the local community and Zimbabwean people; and further requests that the House do all in therefore request that the House of Commons urge the its power to prevent the country plunging into another era of Government to change their funding formula. poverty and human suffering as it did in 2008, we ask for help to see human rights restored and support in the fight for a new Following is the full text of the petitions: Zimbabwe. [The Petition of a resident of the UK, And the Petitioners remain, etc. Declares that the Petitioner believes that the GP Surgery [P001223] in Coniston, Cumbria will close unless the Government’s funding formula is changed to support rural practices and Mr Speaker: It is heartening to note that the hon. further declares that the Petitioner believes that the GP Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale (Tim Farron) Surgery in Coniston is vital to the local community as has toddled into the Chamber in time by a few moments. those in Ambelside and Ulverside are not easily accessible We will enable him now to catch his breath, as I call to Coniston residents. Dr Thérèse Coffey to present her petition. The Petitioner therefore requests that the House of Commons urge the Government to change its funding Replacement of Blaxhall Post Box (Suffolk) formula. And the Petitioners remain, etc.] [P001229] 5.33 pm [The Petition of a resident of the UK, Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con): The petition Declares that the Petitioner believes that the GP Surgery requests the replacement of the Blaxhall post box. To in Hawkshead, Cumbria will close unless the Government’s give some context, a beautiful Victorian post box was funding formula is changed to support rural practices and stolen and has not been replaced, despite the fact that it further declares that the Petitioner believes that the GP is more than half a mile away from the nearest post box. Surgery in Hawkshead is vital to the local community. The petition states: The Petitioner therefore requests that the House of The Petition of residents of Blaxhall, Commons urge the Government to change its funding formula. Declares that Royal Mail has declined to replace the stolen post box in the village despite Ofcom’s recent measures to protect And the Petitioners remain, etc.] rural post boxes from removal. [P001230] 705 15 OCTOBER 2013 Welsh Assembly Legislation 706 (Attorney-General) Welsh Assembly Legislation (Attorney- Member for Cardiff, Central today. At that time it General) meant challenging some of the views of the Labour party in Wales, which were not always progressive. Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—(Mr Gyimah.) We got to the stage where Wales had the chance to make laws on its own soil, not for the first time in history, but for the first time in 1,000 years. Laws were 5.35 pm made by Hywel Dda between 942 and 950, and they Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab): I am extremely were very progressive. One stated that if a wife caught grateful to the Conservative party. Because of the social her husband in bed with another woman for the third event that Conservative Members are attending tonight, time, she could divorce him and get compensation for it managed to engineer a little under two hours for me the previous two occasions. Women had the right to to make the important points that I wish to make, own land, which was progressive in 942. There was also which is just about adequate time. a law—it is rather better than the bedroom tax and other measures we have now—stating that if a person We have a Government who are Janus-faced on a had passed through three villages asking for food but vital issue. I had the pleasure last Thursday of listening not been fed, he or she could not be punished for to the new the Minister of State, Cabinet Office, the stealing food. That was progressive Welsh legislation, right hon. Member for Tunbridge Wells (Greg Clark), and it should have inspired the Government to realise talking about his view of the principle of devolution. that, as the great Welsh proverb states: Hawdd cynnau He is the one that is facing forward, but I believe there is tân ar hen aelwyd—it is easy to kindle a fire on an old another face to this Janus. Lurking in the Attorney-General’s hearth. The old hearth was there, because we were Office is a little nest of devolution deniers who are law-makers in the past, and good law-makers at that. doing great damage. Boldly the Welsh Assembly Government put forward The Minister of State said last week: their first law, which had the romantic title of the Local “This has been something that, as you know, I have always Government Byelaws (Wales) Bill. They took it through been passionate about. Way back in Opposition, I wrote books on the need to transfer power from the centre to the places in our the Assembly and it became an Act. One would not country. As you probably know, I am Middlesbrough born and have expected it to cause an enormous amount of bred, and the founders of the infant Hercules did not need to ask excitement, because it just cleared up a few other laws to permission from central government to grow and prosper. I think allow local government to pass their own byelaws, which we need to get back to the spirit of people, the leaders of our they have been doing without trouble for a long time. cities, towns and counties across the country, feeling that they There was no hesitation and no excitement, but for have the right to initiate policies, do things differently, and have some reason—I am sure that the Solicitor-General will greater control of financial resources.” explain it when he replies—that modest Bill, the first for Hallelujah. Amen to that. 1,000 years to bear the royal Welsh seal, which made it But what has happened in Wales has been extraordinary. significant, even if its content was not, was opposed by We have seen the other face of Janus that is looking the Attorney-General’s office. backwards. That is where the devolution denial is coming from. The Attorney-General’s Office is suffering from an acute case of CPR—it is chronically power retentive Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab): My hon. Friend in an era of devolution. This is not something that has might want to recollect that before that we had the come about as party propaganda. We have had votes on procedure for legislative competence orders, which he this. We have been through the whole process. We had a has referred to. The first one I dealt with, along with my referendum to get devolution in Wales and we had a right hon. Friend the Member for Neath (Mr Hain), referendum to get greater powers. was the LCO on red meat. Although it was delayed, subject to parliamentary scrutiny that was a little over- I speak with some pedigree on this because I can onerous, we did not delay the red meat LCO too long, fondly recall the day in 1953 when I marched through because otherwise it would have gone off. Cardiff with people from several parties. I had a Labour party banner that said “Senedd i Gymru”, “a Parliament for Wales”. It did not say, “hanner Senedd i Gymru”. It Paul Flynn: Yes, it was a difficult period when we had did not say, “LCOs i’r bobl”. It did not say, “half-baked the LCOs, which were a new legislative monstrosity that policies that can be shredded by a national Government.” we were stuck with and that puzzled us, but as a result It said, “a Parliament for Wales”. We still do not have of certain ingenuity they did mean that some sort of law one, sadly. We have a form of democracy, but it is not was made in Wales, even if in a cack-handed manner. tax-raising and the limited powers that it has for passing They are now a footnote in history. laws have been frustrated at every turn. The Local Government Byelaws (Wales) Bill went through because it was uncontroversial, and there was a Mr Peter Hain (Neath) (Lab): Does my hon. Friend little bit of ceremony because we were proud to be recall also, on that theme, that in 1994 he and I and Jon making laws in the land of our own country for the first Owen Jones, a former Member for Cardiff, Central, time in more than 1,000 years. Why on earth was it were censured by the Welsh Executive for speaking as opposed? The First Minister called it a Labour MPs at a conference in Llandrindod Wells for a Parliament for Wales? “ridiculous situation that has arisen on what is a totally uncontroversial piece of legislation…The primary policy objective of the Bill is to simplify and rationalise how local authorities make byelaws to Paul Flynn: I remember it vividly. It was a painful deal with nuisances in their areas…So why the UK government experience but one that resulted in promotion to Cabinet has decided to take this to the Supreme Court, at the last minute, rank for my right hon. Friend. I saw the former hon. is inexplicable.” 707 Welsh Assembly Legislation 15 OCTOBER 2013 Welsh Assembly Legislation 708 (Attorney-General) (Attorney-General) Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/ Huw Irranca-Davies: Before my hon. Friend continues Co-op): My hon. Friend is making a strong case about on to another Bill, may I suggest that there might be an the first law, which was very historic, as he mentioned. interpretation of what justified the Westminster intervention Did he share my surprise, along with other members of and challenge on this? It is as simple as this: for local the Welsh Affairs Committee, that the Secretary of government, a devolved area in Wales, read England. State, and apparently the Attorney-General’s office, did not even seem aware of the cost to the taxpayer of Paul Flynn: Absolutely. This is part of the long referring that very modest measure to the Supreme history of the neglect of Wales and the undervaluing of Court? Welsh life by the British Government over the years that now has a chance of being corrected. Paul Flynn: I am glad that my hon. Friend has intervened, because I can remind him of the costs that A Bill about the Welsh language was proposed that the Government seemed indifferent to. The legal cost of offered equal status to the two languages. While there the Treasury Solicitor’s Department for representing were quibbles from the national Government about the Attorney-General in relation to the Bill was £59,000. this, they did not take it to the High Court. We now have a farm workers wages Bill—a splendid Bill in many ways—that has had great support even from the farm Mr Hain: That would cover a lot of the bedroom tax. unions in Wales. That is because there are farm wages boards in Scotland and in Northern Ireland, and the Paul Flynn: Absolutely. We could have saved lots of Bill tried to get the board continued in Wales. Farm the bedroom tax if this had not been done. The legal workers along the borders in Wales are already exposed cost incurred by the Welsh Government was £30,000, to market forces and do not have the protection that the and about £15,000 was spent on civil service time in the 13,000 farm workers in Wales have. The Agricultural Wales Office. The total bill was £150,000. Why? Because Wages Board set pay rates that gave a modest amount some pernickety piffle artist in the Attorney-General’s of protection to farm workers, whose wages have never office was trying to make some kind of stand against been generous and were hardly generous under the Bill, devolution. He went through the might of the High but are certainly exposed to greater cuts now. Court. Five judges were there, looking dignified and wise in their wigs. The total number of judges who The UK Government warned that there were important agreed with the Government was zero. It was a unanimous questions for the Supreme Court to resolve as to whether vote that this was a frivolous intervention. the Assembly acted within its powers on that matter. Yet whatever powers the Welsh Assembly got, they certainly included agriculture. There is no question about that, The Solicitor-General (Oliver Heald): While following because it was the decision of this House under the Acts the very excited way in which the hon. Gentleman is that were passed here. However, for some twisted reason putting his case, I cannot let him get him get away with the Government decided that this was to do with that, because the Court made it clear that it was a employment, and by that chicanery challenged the Bill. perfectly justifiable application, and in fact it clarified the law in an important way. Huw Irranca-Davies: Does my hon. Friend share my Paul Flynn: I think that a number of them agreed and shock at the fact that the Welsh Government Minister, the judgment was won. Alun Davies, had repeatedly made it clear to the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs that Mr Hain: I am not sure that it is entirely fair for my he wanted to carve a different path in Wales and was hon. Friend to put all the blame on officials in the simply seeking a dispensation in order to do that, and Attorney-General’s office in the way that he graphically yet he was told, “No, we will abolish the whole structure described, because it was the Secretary of State in the of the Agricultural Wages Board and then fight the Wales Office who referred the matter to the Attorney- battle over whether you can reinstate something that General. As the then Secretary of State, I was the looks like it”? What sort of respect for devolution is author of the Government of Wales Act 2006, under that? which this process took place. I can tell my hon. Friend, and the House, that in no way was that Act drafted and Paul Flynn: My hon. Friend gives a splendid example. designed to allow for this situation to occur. The drafting This is the reverse of devolution, the very opposite of of the relevant clause dealt with cross-border issues what the new Minister of State at the Cabinet Office where there were questions, for example, about rivers said the other day about local opinion and good ideas. that flowed across the border or other environmental Wales has a stronger case for an Agricultural Wages concerns about which there might be disputes after a Board, perhaps, than many parts of England, so we Wales Act had been passed by the UK Government in should be able to make a different decision, but the Westminster. There needed to be a reserve power by Government object. which the Secretary of State for Wales could clarify or tidy up anything that resulted from such a cross-border Paul Murphy (Torfaen) (Lab): I congratulate my hon. issue. It was never intended to allow the Secretary of Friend on securing the debate. Should it not be the State to ride roughshod over the devolution settlement case—it certainly was when I was Welsh Secretary—that and veto what the Welsh Assembly had decided. disputes between devolved Administrations and the United Kingdom Government should be resolved at a Paul Flynn: I am very grateful to my right hon. governmental and political level, and that they should Friend for his expert view on this. never get to a stage where they are resolved by the Another Bill was then presented by the Welsh Assembly. courts? 709 Welsh Assembly Legislation 15 OCTOBER 2013 Welsh Assembly Legislation 710 (Attorney-General) (Attorney-General) Paul Flynn: That is absolutely right. Leaving decisions intended to establish a republic. The plan was to stop to the courts and depending on expensive silks is no way the mail going from Newport—that is the Royal Mail, to run devolved Assemblies or national Governments. not the Daily Mail, although there may well be riots A Bill on recovering NHS costs for asbestos treatment about that now—so that the signal would go to the rest is also of great value. It went through the Assembly over of the country that a revolution was going on and that a the summer and is at an advanced stage. The first republic was to be set up. It was very good of Her people to have their lives destroyed by negligent employers, Majesty to organise a party tonight to give me enough or by defects in the health service with which they were time to explain what happened. Those people wanted to provided, have suffered—it is a terrible, crippling disease— run their own affairs and to have autonomy 174 years and they will be entitled to compensation from those ago. who were responsible for causing the problem. What is I will conclude, because I am sure that my hon. wrong with that? The Bill has not been finally resolved, Friends will want to contribute to the debate, by reading but if there is a problem with such Bills, surely the two a poem about that march in 1839 by Gillian Clarke, authorities should discuss and resolve it. who concludes by saying that the “grudged gift” of devolution was given sparingly: Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab): Does my hon. Friend “Their bones ached from the shift, wind in the shaft, agree that that Bill is important because it will recover the heat of the furnaces, yet on they marched, money for the health service, which is a very worthwhile their minds a blaze because their cause was right, thing to do? One would have thought there would be through darkness from Ebbw Vale, Blackwood, Pontypool, support for that across the whole of the UK. faces frozen and stung by the lash of rain, Paul Flynn: That is absolutely right. The main part of trudging the roads to Newport through the night. the Bill is to get money back for the health service from the negligent people who allowed diseases to take hold. At the Welsh Oak, Rogerstone, betrayed by daylight, Many of the unfortunate people affected by asbestosis Frost’s men from the west, Williams’s from the east, in Wales worked in industry. Jones’s men never arrived. The rest struck on Tied to all this is the Government’s view of devolution. To stand united, of one heart in the square The Silk commission reported after a referendum that before the Westgate. Had they stood silent then, measured popular opinion in Wales. We know that the had they not surged forward, had they not been shaken Tories have always had trouble with devolution. They by rage against injustice, had they muzzled were very much against it in 1994 when, as my right the soldiers’ muskets with a multitude hon. Friend the Member for Neath (Mr Hain) has said, of silence, had reason spoken, three of us were disciplined by the Labour party in Wales. Only one of their candidates in the first Assembly those steely thousands might have won the day. was elected by first past the post, while a few others But they stormed the doors to set their comrades free, came in through the assisted places scheme. and shots were fired, and freedom’s dream was broken.

Mrs Siân C. James (Swansea East) (Lab): I congratulate A score dead. Fifty wounded. Their leaders tried, my hon. Friend on securing this debate. We are still condemned, transported. The movement, in disarray, awaiting the latest information on the findings of the lost fifty years. Then came, at last, that shift Silk commission. Devolution delivers the things we of power, one spoonful of thin gruel at a time, need for the people of Wales—Welsh solutions to Welsh from strong to weak, from rich to poor, problems—and yet we cannot seem to prise that information from men to women, like a grudged gift.” out of the Government. It is a great shame that we cannot make progress at the pace that the communities and citizens of Wales want when we are putting all this 5.57 pm time and effort into good governance. Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab): I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Newport West (Paul Flynn) on Paul Flynn: My hon. Friend expresses very well the his excellent speech in which he described our grave position we are in now. The Silk commission, after an concerns about the way in which money has been used exhaustive inquiry, made certain recommendations. We and continues to be used to deal with matters in a legal were promised that the Government would reply in the context rather than a political one. My right hon. spring, then the summer, then the late summer and then Friend the Member for Torfaen (Paul Murphy) made the early autumn, but when will they actually respond? the key point that we would like to see such discussions Carwyn Jones rightly said over the weekend that this is resolved politically, rather than being taken through the a major problem. An urgent bypass is required in Gwent courts, with the huge costs that that involves. and other constituencies that suffer continual traffic The Secretary of State for Wales is responsible for congestion, such as that of my right hon. Friend the initiating the action. The sad thing is that in each case, Member for Torfaen (Paul Murphy), in order to find an he has acted right at the last minute. Instead of discussing alternative route for the M4. As Carwyn Jones said, the early on whether the Assembly was taking the appropriate situation is frozen. The Welsh Government cannot move measures or proceeding in the right way, on each occasion forward until there is a response to the Silk commission he has waited until the very last minute, when the Welsh and action is taken on that. Assembly Government have had everything ready and In a few weeks’ time, on 4 November, Newport will have been prepared to act, to raise the objection, in an recall the great day when thousands of Chartists made almost obstructive manner. I hesitate to use that word their protest against the Government of the time. They because it might be considered unparliamentary to 711 Welsh Assembly Legislation 15 OCTOBER 2013 Welsh Assembly Legislation 712 (Attorney-General) (Attorney-General) [Nia Griffith] in a way that avoids the need to go to the courts. Of course, the situation is not the same when different accuse him of such action, but it really does look as parties are in government in London and Cardiff, but though he acts just when the Welsh Government have the principle is the same—to try to resolve the problem. an excellent idea. I rather fancy that the Solicitor-General will talk My hon. Friend the Member for Ogmore (Huw Irranca- about whether the National Assembly has the powers to Davies) spoke about the preparation that was done to do certain things and whether it acts ultra vires or intra allow the Agricultural Wages Board to remain in Wales. vires. Even those points can be resolved by diplomatic That was not a matter of starting from scratch, but of means, however, if they are talked through. By going to continuing what was already there. However, that has the Supreme Court, we press the nuclear button. Although been laid waste because the legislation was put in question. that might satisfy the lawyers, civil servants and Ministers That is such a wasteful way of proceeding. who think it should be done, they are unwittingly doing I would like to ask the Minister a question, to which I immense damage to the devolutionary settlement, whether hope he will respond when he replies, although I fear it in Wales, Scotland or Northern Ireland. The whole might be difficult for him as Solicitor-General, because purpose of devolving legislation and administration to he cannot predict what his colleague the Secretary of those three countries and regions of the United Kingdom State for Wales will do. My question is, when will this is that they are allowed, by Act of Parliament and by process end? How many more things will the Welsh referendum, to take their own decisions. If the Government Government prepare and be ready to run with, only to do not like something, a crafty way to stop it is not find that they are suddenly thwarted? We want that through negotiation among Ministers but by going to process, and the ridiculous waste of money, to stop the courts. That is the wrong way to do it. now. If there are doubts about what is within the A lot of the problem is the general inexperience in competence of the devolved Government, let us get that government of how devolution works. For many years, sorted out properly, around the table in a grown-up I was frustrated with Whitehall Departments because manner, not in the current ridiculous way. It is like they did not understand what devolution meant. The children running up to mummy or daddy to ask whether purpose of the territorial Departments of State for something is right or wrong. It is an absurd situation, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland is to undertake and I would like to know whether the Attorney-General liaison between the Governments of Wales, Scotland has had talks with the Secretary of State for Wales and Northern Ireland and that of the United Kingdom. about making this the last time it happens. It should not continue in future. Stephen Doughty: My right hon. Friend is making a strong case. Does he agree that at play here was something 6pm much more sinister because, in the case of the Agricultural Wages Board, the Welsh Government were going to Paul Murphy (Torfaen) (Lab): Unexpectedly, I rise to show up the UK Government in what they were doing support my hon. Friend the Member for Newport West and what we were trying to protect? Let us not forget (Paul Flynn) on this issue. I do not actually think the that the measure was to protect more than 13,000 Attorney-General’s Office is to blame for the situation. low-paid agricultural workers in Wales. The use of this The system is to blame, because it means that issues are constitutional process shows not only disrespect for resolved through the courts when they should be resolved devolution, but a way of trying to get away from something through the political process. the Government did not want to be shown up in public. The whole purpose of the Wales Office and its counterparts in Northern Ireland and Scotland is to Paul Murphy: There are two ways of looking at it. resolve disputes such as those that have been described There are party political differences because of the in a proper political way, so that they never have to different parties in the different countries, but I also enter a court of law, let alone end up going to the experienced that when Labour was in government and Supreme Court and costing so much money. When I other state Departments were not necessarily sympathetic was first appointed Secretary of State for Wales, virtually to what the Welsh Government were doing. It was my all the responsibilities of my predecessors had gone to job to say, “You might not like it, but you’ve got to do it the National Assembly for Wales. Although my hon. because that is what devolution is all about.” Otherwise, Friend and I—we have been friends for far too many what is the point of having it in the first place? years to remember—were not always on the same path on the issue, we have ended up in the same place on it, Huw Irranca-Davies: When I served under my right not least because the people of Wales recently voted to hon. Friend as Under-Secretary of State for Wales, a extend the Assembly’s powers. For the first time, it will signature of his tenure in office was that at all times have the right to produce its own primary legislation. such resolutions were dealt with early and within our The Solicitor-General will know that disputes in mechanisms. It was a signal failure if something had to government are resolved either through correspondence escalate to another constitutional mechanism, and it or, if that cannot work, through Ministers meeting. In did not go at all to the Supreme Court. the case of matters involving devolved Administrations, Ministers of the Crown meet other Ministers of the Paul Murphy: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his Crown who happen to be in the devolved Administrations remarks, and there is machinery within the Government in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. Beyond that, system for resolving disputes between the devolved there is machinery, for which I was once responsible, for Administrations and their Parliaments, and the United joint ministerial committees. If necessary, there is British- Kingdom Government. That has been set up for nearly Irish Council. All that means that matters can be resolved 16 years and is precisely to deal with those areas of 713 Welsh Assembly Legislation 15 OCTOBER 2013 Welsh Assembly Legislation 714 (Attorney-General) (Attorney-General) considerable difference. In my view, that includes whether Somebody once likened history to using a rear-view there is a dispute, and whether something is intra vires mirror in a car: it is useful, but we do not necessarily or ultra vires. I repeat: to take the issue to the courts is need it. My hon. Friend the Member for Newport West to press the nuclear button and could cause immeasurable (Paul Flynn) spoke of history, particularly of the Chartists. damage to the devolution settlement. We should look over our shoulders and ask why the Agricultural Wages Board was established in the first 6.6 pm place and what it has done over the years. I am sorry, but in Wales we would like to plough our own furrow— Mrs Siân C. James (Swansea East) (Lab): I want to pardon my pun. return to the Agricultural Wages Board—a good example —and ask the Solicitor-General why he is so adamantly I return to the basic question. The board is supported trying to stop the agricultural wages sector in Wales, by farming unions in Wales and other parts of the UK. which is important to us in Wales as a rural economy. I I ask the Minister to accept that we in Wales want to be represent the wonderful rural constituency of Swansea forward thinking. We want to protect people and give East and—I have to say this—I have a husband and son them decent wages. The Labour Welsh Assembly who are actively engaged in the rural community. I Government is to be congratulated on their action. therefore get my ear bent about this matter on a regular They should not be stymied and thwarted at every basis by family, friends and neighbours, and I note the corner. Let us move forward. concern that people are expressing to me, and the worry. We have already seen the agricultural industry hit. 6.12 pm Many people will have far greater fluency on the issue Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab): I congratulate and be more qualified to speak about these matters my hon. Friend the Member for Newport West (Paul than I am, but the idea that we in Wales cannot make a Flynn) not only on introducing the debate and on his decision about helping farmers and rural workers within excellent peroration on the stymieing of legislation and the boundaries of Wales without having it challenged is policy in Wales by the current Westminster Government, a retrograde step in the light of devolution, as many of but on expounding on the narrative history of the my colleagues have said. Chartists and why it is relevant. I can only share his I am worried because the Farmers Union of Wales disappointment that we have so little time to debate has stated clearly that this is about attracting young this—we could go overnight, but, in compliance with people of high calibre to the agricultural industry. If we the wishes of right hon. and hon. Members, we will try want to attract the best young, forward-thinking people, to avoid that situation. including women, into rural industries and those related The legislative competence order process was a previous to them, how do we do that when we have to fight for mechanism for producing legislation in Wales. It was every penny? How do we say, possibly when unscrupulous slightly cumbersome and convoluted, and required a employers are taking advantage of the fact that there is great deal of detailed scrutiny in Parliament. However, now no Agricultural Wages Board to protect people, it passed some cognisance of the growing authority of “It’s okay, we’ll look after you”? the Welsh Government. LCOs were much criticised at This is not a race to the bottom; it is supposed to be a the time—rightly, in some ways, because they caused race to the top, but I am finding it difficult, and I would delay and were complex, even for the very good officials like the Solicitor-General to explain the situation to me in the Wales Office in London and in Cardiff, and for and to all the people in Wales, including the 13,300 Welsh Government officials, who worked through the agricultural workers who would be protected by the minutiae. The intention—to afford proper scrutiny in introduction of the legislation in Wales. They are heaving Parliament and ensure that the Welsh Government could a huge sigh of relief and are sympathetic to their fellow introduce their own measures under the process within workers across the border in England. We already have their clearly devolved responsibilities and so on—was wages boards in Scotland and Northern Ireland, and we good. Yes, it caused delays, but there was a good spirit. cannot see why this legislation was introduced in We managed to pass LCOs into legislation, even after Westminster. good scrutiny in Parliament by the Welsh Affairs Committee I am going over old ground—the Minister will have and others. There was never any intention to hold heard this regularly and be well aware of it—but we things up unduly. want and need that protection in Wales. If we want a The purpose was the growing relationship under the thriving rural sector in Wales, we must pay decent LCO system between the right scrutiny of this place at wages. We must ensure that we can protect people. that time and the right role of the Welsh people, through As I have said, I have friends in unglamorous jobs in their elected officials in the Welsh Assembly and the farming—cow men, shepherds, general farm workers Welsh Government, to introduce appropriate measures and farriers. They are cross, as hon. Members can from Wales. As my hon. Friend pointed out, that was imagine. They expect to be protected. They have been not without its difficulties. It could sometimes be successfully protected for 65 years. During that period, tortuous—even the now legendary red meat LCO took many hundreds of thousands of people have been ensured a little time to get on to the books, and that was one of a minimum wage and protection. the more straightforward orders—but we got there When the right hon. Member for South East eventually. On all occasions, the intention of my right Cambridgeshire (Sir James Paice) was a Minister in the hon. Friends the Members for Neath (Mr Hain) and for Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, Torfaen (Paul Murphy) was for their officials to work he suggested that Labour Members assumed that farm with officials in the Welsh Government and the Welsh workers were “forelock-tugging yokels”. All hon. Members Assembly to try to progress the measures through the accept that the world has moved on since 1948, but LCO mechanism, which was imperfect but was what we protection is not backward looking; it is about the future. had at the time. 715 Welsh Assembly Legislation 15 OCTOBER 2013 Welsh Assembly Legislation 716 (Attorney-General) (Attorney-General) [Huw Irranca-Davies] I turn to the Agricultural Wages Board, about which I know some small amount, given that I was the shadow What has followed, with the will of the Welsh people, Minister who stood here frequently in opposition to its is ostensibly an attempt to streamline the process to give abolition. Just as frequently, I put the case that the clarity on where devolved responsibilities lie, and to Westminster Government merely needed to allow Wales allow the Welsh Government, the Welsh people and to continue as it was by putting a clause in the Bill, as Welsh civic society to get on with passing their own requested by the Welsh Government, saying, “Ignore laws—whether we, on both sides of the House, might Wales for these purposes.” We only asked that they let agree or disagree with them ideologically—to define us carry on and find a way to do it ourselves, rather their own democratic path. As we have heard, it has not than abolishing the whole mechanism and saying, “Now quite gone that way. For those on the Opposition Benches do what you want.” it feels like there has been by the current Secretary of I pay tribute to the work of Unite, in Wales and State for Wales—I do not blame the Solicitor-General throughout the UK, which stood up for the lowest of for looking quizzical—a maybe inadvertent but deliberate the low-paid agricultural workers, for skills and training attempt to hold up, to challenge, to rebuke the Welsh and for the development of earnings and capacity among people for being so impertinent as to actually bring agricultural workers. I also pay tribute to colleagues in forward their own legislation. the Welsh Assembly, including Mick Antoniw and others, who fought the good fight in Wales and to the Farmers’ The Solicitor-General: I am surprised to hear the hon. Union of Wales—for goodness’ sake!—which said, “The Gentleman suggest that LCOs are better than the current reason we want to keep it in Wales is that we are slightly system, whereby the National Assembly for Wales has different from England. We have a higher proportion of primary powers in 20 areas. What is more, most of the small and medium-sized farms, which do not only employ Bills are going through without any difficulty. There individuals. That is why we want the clarity provided by have been difficulties with two, but the idea that we the Agricultural Wages Board. We also rent ourselves should go back to LCOs is wrong. out.” The would say to me, “I as a small farmer, rent out, and I know the terms of the contract.” I am talking Huw Irranca-Davies: I could not agree with the hon. of the young farmers of Wales too. These are not and learned Gentleman more. Perhaps I should clarify organisations that would automatically side with Labour what I was saying: LCOs were clearly imperfect, but the on every issue in defence of something such as the new system is meant to be better. Even with the LCO Agricultural Wages Board, but my goodness they did paraphernalia—it was difficult and cumbersome—attempts on this occasion. were made within the constitutional arrangement, as All that the Welsh Government and Alun Davies, the my right hon. Friend the Member for Torfaen has made Welsh Minister, were asking was, “Give us time and space clear, to work through those difficulties. If necessary, to define our own future”, but that did not happen. We and as a last resort, they would be escalated up the debated it long and hard, we fought the good fight, constitutional food chain for resolution at a higher speaking up for the Agricultural Wages Board not only level, but there was certainly not the seemingly macho in England, but in Wales, all the while conscious that political posturing of taking it outside of this place the voice of representatives in the Welsh Government without recourse to internal mechanisms and straight and the National Assembly was not being heard anywhere to the Supreme Court. I can see only one possible except in the media. We had to speak for them. justification for that: to prove some sort of point and say to the people of Wales and the democratically Wales lost without having had a direct say, and all elected representatives in Wales, “Know your place.” that was required was for a Westminster Minister to say, “We concede that agriculture is a devolved responsibility. Stephen Doughty: Does my hon. Friend accept that We won’t challenge you. We will put a clause in the Bill there is also an opportunity cost here? What is the that will allow you to proceed.” That, I say to the Secretary of State for Wales doing with his and his Solicitor-General, would have shown respect for Wales officials’ time, attempting to stymie and frustrate the and the devolution settlement. Rather than that, and will of the Welsh people and the National Assembly symptomatic of the case put forward by my hon. Friend instead of focusing on standing up for Wales around the Member for Newport West, we had a firm no. The the Cabinet table? He was evasive when we questioned door was shut in our faces. In effect, it wiped Wales off him on this point in the Welsh Affairs Committee. He the democratic map. That is a regret. would not give us an estimate of the amount of time The Solicitor-General is a reasonable and fair-minded that he and his office had spent on this. I suspect it was fellow. The cacophony of pleas from the Opposition far more than it should have been. might remind him of the old poem about Welsh people worrying the carcase of a dead song and being a bit too Huw Irranca-Davies: I agree entirely with my hon. melancholy, but we are not melancholy; we want to be Friend. There is a clear case for a cost-benefit analysis joyous and we want to celebrate devolution and respect of the tasks the Secretary of State is spending his time the fact that the people of Wales supported greater on, and for asking why he is not finding more useful devolution. We just ask the UK Government, whatever things to do. There is also the question of the cost of political perspectives make it up, also to show that respect. challenging this through the Supreme Court. In an era of what we are told is great austerity, cutbacks and 6.23 pm stringent demands on Departments, I am amazed that the Wales Office thinks it fit to throw on to Government— The Solicitor-General (Oliver Heald): I start by thanking albeit another Department—the cost associated with a the hon. Member for Newport West (Paul Flynn) for Supreme Court challenge. initiating the debate. The issues raised are important 717 Welsh Assembly Legislation 15 OCTOBER 2013 Welsh Assembly Legislation 718 (Attorney-General) (Attorney-General) and go to the heart of the UK’s devolution arrangements. State for Wales and with the Counsel General, Theodore It is clear that the issues have raised concerns among Huckle, QC. Together, we are working hard to try to several hon. Members. reach agreement. The hon. Gentleman, in his characteristic way, brought It was suggested by the hon. Member for Llanelli in history and his own political struggle over many (Nia Griffith), the shadow Minister for Wales, that years, and it was clear that he would like devolution to there was a problem with the UK Government making go further still. That is his viewpoint. I found the an effort to resolve issues before they escalated to the information about the three villages law of 945 particularly Supreme Court. It is, however, the last resort. The interesting, although I am not sure that it would be of Wales Office, working with the Department for current import and could cause some concerns if Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, has discussed implemented by the current Government. It is not the with the Welsh Assembly Government concerns about Conservative’s stance on law and order, but it was an the Agricultural Sector (Wales) Bill from the outset, interesting piece of context. and the Secretary of State wrote to the First Minister as soon as the draft Bill was available, expressing concerns The subject of the debate is the role of the Attorney- about it—but the Welsh Government could not be General in reviewing legislation passed by the National persuaded to address them. The mechanisms provided Assembly for Wales—a role that I share with him. under the Government of Wales Act 2006 will therefore Despite the comments of the right hon. Member for need to be followed. Under its provisions, we are guardians Neath (Mr Hain), this role was conferred by Parliament of the Welsh devolution settlement and together we on the Attorney-General under the Government of must put our efforts into making it work. Wales Act 2006. That was, of course, under a Labour A reference to the Supreme Court is not a confrontational Government, with their own approach to the issue of process. It does not amount to this Government or any devolution. They had set forward a system of devolution Government picking a fight with the National Assembly. that was a conferred powers model rather than the sort It is a simple recognition of the fact that a particular of model used elsewhere in the United Kingdom. As piece of Welsh legislation raises difficult devolution that happened, Parliament recognised that the devolution questions that are best answered by the independent settlement for Wales must be made to work. The 2006 Supreme Court. That process of resolution is to the Act sets out the 20 “devolved” subjects in respect of benefit of the Welsh Government, the National Assembly which the National Assembly may legislate. It is the and the UK Government. It is in all our interests that responsibility of this Parliament to legislate in any area we fully and clearly understand the boundaries of the that is not devolved. devolution settlement. The 2006 Act provides for the Attorney-General to Full primary law-making powers are still relatively consider each Bill of the National Assembly, so the new for the National Assembly.It was the UK Government Government look carefully at all legislation passed by it and the former Secretary of State, my right hon. Friend to ensure that it falls within the Assembly’s legislative the Member for Chesham and Amersham (Mrs Gillan), competence. The Act provides that, where the Attorney- who facilitated the successful referendum in 2011 on the General or I consider a Bill to go beyond the Assembly’s devolution of those powers to the Assembly, allowing it competence, we can refer it to the Supreme Court to to pass its own laws in 20 devolved areas for the first decide the question. time. That was a major departure in comparison with a legislative competence order, as it lodged the power All of that recognises that it is in the nature of squarely with the Assembly. legislation that it may often appear to be about more than one thing. Where that happens with legislation We are still learning about the settlement. Decisions passed by the National Assembly, a judgment has to be by the Supreme Court about what is within the legislative made about whether the legislation is about something competence of the Assembly allow us to establish the that either is or is not devolved. The Government of boundary with greater certainty, and the Supreme Court Wales Act 2006 provides a means for the Attorney-General itself has recognised that when there is uncertainty, it is and, if necessary, the Supreme Court, to arrive at that appropriate for a reference to be made to allow it to be judgment. If it did not, the devolution settlement could resolved at the earliest possible stage. That was true of not work. The same power to refer a Bill to the Supreme the byelaws case. Court is conferred on the Counsel General for Wales. In Having said all that, 1 do not want the House to this way, there is an appropriate equality between the think that a reference to the Supreme Court is made UK Government and the Welsh Government. lightly, or is somehow to be seen as the easy way out. That illustrates an important point that I do not want Several Bills have now been passed by the Assembly, to get lost in the debate. Something has been made of and the vast majority are uncontroversial in devolution the idea that this Government are anti-devolution or terms. For the most part, there is consensus with the are somehow determined to thwart the will of the Welsh Welsh Government and the National Assembly that the Government and the democratically elected National legislation passed is within competence. Assembly for Wales. Where concerns arise, as the right It is clear from this evening’s debate that the reference hon. Member for Torfaen (Paul Murphy) said, most are of the Agricultural Sector (Wales) Bill has given rise to resolved by a process of negotiation between the UK strong emotions, which were set out by the hon. Member and the Welsh Governments. My officials have excellent for Swansea East (Mrs James). Given that the reference working relations with their colleagues in the Wales has been made, I do not think that I should discuss the Office and their opposite numbers in the Counsel General’s arguments about, in particular, the competence of that Office. The Attorney-General and I have excellent working Bill in any detail here. We shall await the Court’s decision. relations, as one would expect, with the Secretary of What I will say is that the reference relates to all the 719 Welsh Assembly Legislation 15 OCTOBER 2013 Welsh Assembly Legislation 720 (Attorney-General) (Attorney-General) [The Solicitor-General] There is some room in the settlement for different views in certain areas about the extent of the National themes that I have already identified, and that the Assembly’s legislative competence. That is why the last United Kingdom Govt take the view that employment Labour Government provided a mechanism for the law is a UK competence. Supreme Court to scrutinise Assembly Bills. However, I The Attorney-General considers that the Agricultural agree with the right hon. Member for Torfaen that, if Sector (Wales) Bill raises important questions about the possible, it should be the last resort. extent of the Assembly’s legislative competence and the It was this Government who enabled the referendum boundary of the devolution settlement. Despite the on full Assembly powers to take place. That is an good working relationships that I have described and achievement of which we are proud, and because of it the efforts of the UK Government, it was not possible we are seeing a growing and maturing legislature in to persuade the Welsh Government that there was a way Wales. That is what devolution is about. forward that would meet their concerns. That is why the The hon. Member for Newport West mentioned the Supreme Court will have to make the decision. It is a Asbestos (Recovery of Medical Costs) Bill. It is true sign of the Government’s respect for the current devolution that there have been constructive discussions about the arrangements, and our wish to provide certainty and Bill, but that demonstrates that the UK Government stability for those who work in the agricultural sector, are seeking to resolve the devolution concerns at the that we are continuing the existing agricultural wages earliest possible stage. regime in Wales until the court case is decided. I do not think that the hon. Member for Ogmore The Government of Wales Act 2006 was introduced (Huw Irranca-Davies) should be so pessimistic. I realise by the previous Labour Government. It provided a that to some extent he was making a political case, and conferred model for Welsh devolution whereby subjects it was very nice of him to say how reasonable and that were devolved and within the legislative competence fair-minded I am: I have always found him to be the of the Assembly were specified in the legislation. The same. However, I think that progress is being made. It is present Government believe that the conferred model is early days, and I believe that this will be seen as a major right for Wales. The settlement is not perfect, and the achievement which is proceeding effectively. Silk commission—which has been mentioned—is currently considering how it could be improved. The Government Question put and agreed to. will respond to Part 1 of the commission’s recommendations in due course, and, as the House will know, there was a further consultation about stamp duty during the summer. The Government are determined to see the process 6.34 pm through, and to make it work. House adjourned. 173WH 15 OCTOBER 2013 Driver and Vehicle Agency 174WH (Northern Ireland) prevailed eight years ago, when people saw the efficiencies Westminster Hall that could be achieved and the service that could be maintained to motorists and others in Northern Ireland. Tuesday 15 October 2013 In terms of the numbers, 230 people are involved in Coleraine and more than 100 are involved in the rest of [MRS LINDA RIORDAN in the Chair] Northern Ireland through the various sub-offices. The employment of 200 more people, on top of that, depends Driver and Vehicle Agency on the DVA in Northern Ireland. Should centralisation (Northern Ireland) go ahead to Swansea, the total wage loss to the Northern Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting Ireland economy would be in excess of £11 million be now adjourned.—(Amber Rudd.) annually. That would lead to a total economic loss of about £20 million to Northern Ireland, which we simply 9.30 am cannot afford. Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP): It I raised the issue with the Secretary of State for is the normal protocol for those who speak in Westminster Northern Ireland, as did many of my colleagues. She Hall to congratulate the Member who secured the debate made a straightforward commitment: and to say that it is about a topical, important issue. I “It is important that he”— can say, with the utmost assurance, that this is indeed an the Minister— exceptionally topical, very important issue in Northern Ireland; more than 200 jobs are at stake in the Coleraine “takes into account the views of Northern Ireland before he makes his decision.”—[Official Report, 6 March 2013; Vol. 559, area, and more than 300 are at stake in Northern c. 944.] Ireland as a whole. The knock-on effect would be on a total number of jobs in excess of 500. That was an obvious but radical statement. Just two weeks ago, the views of the people of Northern Ireland At the outset, I want to apologise for the absence of became absolutely clear, if there was any doubt. A my hon. Friend the Member for North Antrim (Ian debate was held in the Northern Ireland Assembly. As Paisley), who has worked closely with me on this campaign, interested observers of the Assembly will know, there as his constituency adjoins mine. Many of the employees can, just occasionally, be matters of division there on involved come from one or other of our constituencies, political matters. From time to time, we do not see eye as they do from throughout Northern Ireland. I want to to eye—says he, with a bit of sarcasm in his voice. On give a few indications of the wider context before coming this issue, however, there was not only cross-community to the nub of the matter, in relation to the Driver and support, but total and utter unanimity. Not a single Vehicle Agency and the services offered there. voice of dissent came from the Chamber. The voice and The Causeway coast area and Northern Ireland as a views of the people of Northern Ireland were endorsed whole have been severely hit by unemployment in recent two weeks ago, on 30 September, when the Northern years. People will ask: has the whole UK not been hit Ireland Assembly voted unanimously to support the like that? The answer, of course, is yes, but more significantly retention of jobs and services at the DVA in Northern so in Northern Ireland. We have been cushioned a little Ireland. by the dependency on the public sector in Northern Ireland. In that context, last week, no less a person than I turn to the jobs and services that are provided. In the Prime Minister was in Northern Ireland to try to the agency, an assessment has been done on the work encourage inward investment, because he, the Government, force’s composition. Some 73% of the work force are the Executive and my friend and colleague Arlene Foster, female, many of whom are carers and have other Northern Ireland’s Minister of Enterprise, Trade and dependents. Any decision to centralise the services in Investment Enterprise, realise that because of the Swansea would have massive implications, not only for dependency on the public sector, we need to encourage the employees, which is obvious, but for all their dependents. inward investment from the private sector. Some of those females are part-time employees. The prospect of trying to get other employment in a Northern This is not a case of taking jobs from the public Ireland that is trying to attract inward investment, as I sector and trying to transfer them into the private have just alluded to, is going to be remote. It will be sector; it is a case of supplementing our existing dependency difficult to attract other employment opportunities for on the public sector through private sector inward the predominantly female staff. investment. Therefore, the Prime Minister came, last week, to try to bring jobs to Northern Ireland, so the I turn now to the services. An analysis has been done last thing we want to see, as a result of the consultation of the services offered by the DVA,and current satisfaction that closed a few weeks ago, is his Government taking rates are very high. I want to draw a comparison jobs from Northern Ireland. Hopefully, that will not be between the satisfaction rates for the services offered in the case. The north coast has a lower-than-average wage Northern Ireland and those for the Driver and Vehicle structure, compared with Northern Ireland as a whole, Licensing Agency in Swansea. I do so with a word of which has a lower-than-average wage structure than the caution, because I fully understand that the sheer scale United Kingdom. We can see the absolute dependency and complexity of the DVLA in Swansea provides a not only on getting and creating more jobs, but on much more challenging environment in which to achieve sustaining the employment that we have. targets. That is all the more reason, I would have The context of the proposed relocation goes back thought, not to add even more to the burden that the some eight years. I first raised the issue in 2005, when people in Swansea already face. the previous Government were looking at possibly The facts are as follows. For example, a survey in the amalgamating driver and vehicle licensing services to past 12 months has shown that 95% of the transactions Swansea. Thankfully, that was overcome; good sense involving changes of registration are completed at the 175WH Driver and Vehicle Agency 15 OCTOBER 2013 Driver and Vehicle Agency 176WH (Northern Ireland) (Northern Ireland) [Mr Gregory Campbell] days—95% of refunds are cleared within five working days. Whichever way we cut this, it is absolutely clear DVA in Northern Ireland within five working days, that in terms of value for money for a service, a significant which is an excellent achievement. The same 95% service is being offered. completion rate at the DVLA in Swansea is achieved in The hon. Member for Ealing North (Stephen Pound) 11 working days. Given the sheer complexity and scale made the point, and the work force have repeatedly told in Swansea, completing changes of registration almost me, that there has been under-investment, in the IT exclusively in 11 working days—95% of the time—is a infrastructure in particular, for many years. In that reasonably good performance, but in Northern Ireland context, the fact that the work force achieve such remarkable we achieve that same in less than half the time. People results is to be cherished and they should be secured for in Northern Ireland will be saying, “If centralisation the future. goes ahead, are the change of registration processes Recent analysis of the database of customers that the going to worsen by more than double?” DVAserves shows that more than 60% of DVAcustomers are aged 44 and older. As we all know, that age group is The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport less likely to be IT literate or to be online to take (Mr Robert Goodwill): I congratulate the hon. Gentleman advantage of registration via a computer. The vast bulk on securing the debate. He might be interested to know of potential customers would be disadvantaged if the that I questioned my officials on the issue he raises, services were transferred to Swansea and the push for because I was aware of the potential problem. I was greater online registration continued, as a result of the assured that the differences in refunds are due to the loss of face-to-face and telephone services and local different ways in which the transaction is measured. recognition and knowledge of that demographic in The DVA’s target is to process and refund within five Northern Ireland. The Minister must take account of days, but that does not take into account any subsequent that. work that may arise in complex cases. The DVLA’s target is measured from time of receipt until a refund I want to raise an issue about which there can be no has been issued. The time taken to process the transactions dispute: Northern Ireland is the only region in the UK is about the same in both agencies. with a land border with another EU state—the Irish Republic. Traditionally, over many years, evasion rates Mr Campbell: I thank the Minister for that explanation. have been significantly higher in Northern Ireland, but I was going to come to refunds next. the rate has reduced considerably due to a comprehensive campaign there. Part of the reason is the local work Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab): I am sure that force with local knowledge of vehicles and residences. the hon. Gentleman is aware that the staff side response Evasion rates that had continued to be high in the past to the consultation refers to the perception in the DVA, have recently been reduced. which in many cases is backed up statistically, that the What are the chances of evasion in Fermanagh, DVLA has vigorously, systematically and aggressively south Armagh and Tyrone, which have borders with the underfunded the IT development system in the DVA. Irish Republic, being detected by people operating from Under those circumstances, does he agree that Northern Swansea? The task will be much more difficult. I contend, Ireland has a remarkable work force that should be with some justification given the previous figures, that cherished rather than centralised? evasion rates will rise, rather than fall. We do not want to encourage evasion or allow it to increase, rather than Mr Campbell: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that continue the drive to get it down. contribution. I was coming on to IT—as he anticipated, An important reference point has emerged in the past in his usual prescient way. four days. From media reports over the weekend, I understand that the DVLA’s independent complaints David Simpson (Upper Bann) (DUP): Will my hon. assessor has a draft report on the past two years, Friend give way? 2011-12 and 2012-13, with the various Departments for accuracy checking. When it is released in two weeks—I Mr Campbell: Yes—I am in the mood for giving way, was assured yesterday that it will be released by the end so I will give way to my hon. Friend. of October, and I hope the Minister can confirm that—it will confirm a significant increase in the volume of David Simpson: I thank my hon. Friend and commend complaints about the service people get at the DVLA in him for securing this important debate—when some Swansea. Obviously, it is a draft report and we will wait 500 jobs are at stake, it is indeed a very important to see the final outcome, but if complaints are increasing, debate. If the figures he has given about Swansea are part of the reason will be the sheer volume and complexity correct, surely moving everything from Northern Ireland of cases being dealt with at one central agency. If to be centralised will compound the problem. A longer anything can clinch the case for retaining a localised time scale for the completion of customers’ paperwork service, it will be in the context of the series of events I will be inevitable. have outlined.

Mr Campbell: It appears to me, and I think to most Mr Goodwill: Prior to the debate, I asked about people, that that would be the case. the level of complaints. I was told that in the most The 95% target for applications for refunds is achieved recent year for which we have statistics, there were in 30 working days in Swansea; again, allowing for the 12,500 complaints to the DVLA, which, measured against scale of the millions of people who tax their vehicles, 170 million transactions, represents 0.01%. The increase achieving that figure is a challenge. The target in the same in the level of referred complaints is due to a change in category in Northern Ireland is achieved in five working how complaints are handled. Previously, the chief executive 177WH Driver and Vehicle Agency 15 OCTOBER 2013 Driver and Vehicle Agency 178WH (Northern Ireland) (Northern Ireland) had to refer complaints for consideration; they now have that spending money in their shops, will certainly automatically go through, which to some extent explains not feel any benefit from the relocation, and neither will the increase in complaints that has been registered. those who work in those businesses, whose jobs or hours will be cut. I am not being melodramatic; I am Mr Campbell: I am glad the Minister has confirmed explaining a sequence of events that has been seen in that there has been an increase. I note that he said “in many areas and which cannot be allowed to take place. I the most recent year”; my understanding is that the am explaining the effect of relocating the DVA from draft report refers to the past two years. Perhaps he has Coleraine to Swansea. further information about the increase in the previous My colleague is certainly right to highlight the irony year, but I do not think he has. I accept the Minister’s of the Prime Minister removing jobs from Northern comment on the increase and the reason for it. My Ireland while at the same time celebrating the potential colleagues and I have raised significant points and there for business investment. If we look at those two statements are good reasons for retaining a local service that will from the Prime Minister and then the reality on the take account of the issues. ground, we look with cynicism as we see the practicality In conclusion, I ask the Minister to do three things. I of what is proposed. The notion of robbing Peter to pay have invited the Secretary of State, and I invite him, to Paul—robbing one area of jobs to provide in another come to Coleraine in Northern Ireland to see at first area—is not an acceptable form of governing, and I hand the level of service and the work that is put in by trust that all MPs present here and elsewhere will send employees, before coming to the final decision. In the message that such a movement of position and jobs connection with that, I want the Minister to take account is not simply an accounting form of moving numbers of the unique circumstances that prevail in Northern from one column to another; it is playing with people’s Ireland before coming to his decision. I also call on him lives and the effect will reach out far beyond where to retain the excellent services that we have in Northern we are. Ireland and those much needed jobs that go with them. Northern Ireland is an intricate part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain. As such, it is right and 9.51 am proper that we are used for central government purposes. Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I congratulate The DVA centre is fit for purpose and is doing a great my hon. Friend the Member for East Londonderry job. My hon. Friend the Member for East Londonderry (Mr Campbell) on securing this debate. It is nice to have outlined the service and efficiencies that are delivered at a bevy of Northern Ireland MPs here—for once, we are Coleraine, and he described the experienced personnel the biggest party in Westminster Hall—to collectively who deliver the service. support the need to retain the DVA in Coleraine and to Will the relocation lead to efficiency? Indications ensure a good level of service provision for our constituents. show that it will not. I know the Minister has already That is why we are here: to see a continuation of the responded to a couple of questions and he has given us service that we have. As elected representatives we have his figures. However, the figures mentioned by my hon. an opportunity to respond and turn issues round in a Friend the Member for East Londonderry showed few days or even after a phone call. The contribution dissatisfaction with what has been delivered by Swansea. from my hon. Friend the Member for East Londonderry If that is the case, why move the DVA from Coleraine to and the evidence that we have individually show that Swansea? It seems illogical and will certainly not achieve such a response will not be possible if the service goes efficiency, so it can only be for other—small p or big from County hall in Coleraine to Swansea in Wales. p—political decisions. If that is the reason, the Government The 300 workers will certainly feel the pain. are doing us an injustice, because we are very much a I also congratulate in his absence my hon. Friend the part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Member for North Antrim (Ian Paisley) on his questions Northern Ireland, and we want to remain so. to the Transport Minister a few weeks ago. It is unfortunate I recently read that there has already been clear that he cannot be here today owing to a family bereavement, evidence in Scotland that the ordinary purchase of but we thank him for his significant contribution. I vehicles and changing of tax discs is being delayed by know that he has worked long hard hours alongside my up to six weeks. In Coleraine, that can be done in five hon. Friend the Member for East Londonderry. days. It is efficient. The Northern Ireland Public Service The detriment of the proposals will not simply be Alliance has figures that show a customer satisfaction suffered by those who work in the DVA office; they will rate of 98%. Where else in the United Kingdom is there be suffered by those who use the service. I want to a business with a satisfaction rate such as that? We have mention the service, the work that people do, and how it in the DVA in Coleraine. Because of that delivery and that affects those outside, because there is a benefit to efficiency, the decision should be looked at again. the whole of the local community. It has been estimated Centralisation of work in places such as Scotland has that some £22 million a year would be removed from led to numerous complaints and delays in what should the Northern Ireland economy if the move went ahead, be simple services, as well as huge disruptions to the which is something that could not be absorbed in such a cash flow for car dealerships. The efficiency that the short time. It would be detrimental to the economy of centre in Coleraine displays should make it a flagship Northern Ireland, not only in East Londonderry but centre and not one that is flagged to close. We have throughout the whole province. It seems that Northern something good that is delivering efficiently. Let us Ireland would lose that personal service and the money ensure that it continues to do so. that goes into local shops and businesses. I fully support my colleague, and, more importantly, I am unsure about where the benefits will be and I support the high level of service that is provided at where the ripples of change will end up. I know that the Coleraine. I fully support the inherent right that we local shop owners and businesses, who will no longer have in Northern Ireland to be a cog in the wheel of 179WH Driver and Vehicle Agency 15 OCTOBER 2013 Driver and Vehicle Agency 180WH (Northern Ireland) (Northern Ireland) [Jim Shannon] the Downpatrick office, which has traditionally been the County Down facility for people to tax their car for central government provision. We want to be part of many generations. Downpatrick is the main centre of that. We deliver it in every sense of the word through public administration in South Down, and any reduction our contribution to the economy. Our contribution is a in staffing numbers will have an impact on its economy central part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and on future services that might be attracted to the and Northern Ireland. area. At the same time, we are trying to pool resources As my hon. Friend the Member for North Antrim and administrative services to complement the role it has said, the Minister has the same jurisdiction in has always had as a centre of public administration. Coleraine as he has in Swansea. He also has the same I appreciate that the constituency of the hon. Member duty of care to his workers there, and now is the time for East Londonderry will be worst hit by the removal for him to set minds at ease and tell us that he is going of services from Coleraine, but the injustice and to do his duty by the workers of Coleraine, recognise disproportionate nature of the proposal will be felt by their work ethic and keep operations running smoothly people whose jobs are affected and by people throughout in Coleraine. I am happy to support the proposal. Northern Ireland who rely on the services delivered by those offices, including those in my constituency. 9.58 am The Minister will be aware of the representations Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP): I made by me and my colleagues, including the former congratulate the hon. Member for East Londonderry Minister of the Environment and the new Minister of (Mr Campbell) on securing the debate this morning. It the Environment, Mark H. Durkan. In the initial reply is an important subject for all the people in Northern from the Under-Secretary of State for Transport, the Ireland. I welcome the Minister—the Under-Secretary hon. Member for Wimbledon, I was advised that the of State for Transport, the hon. Member for Scarborough proposal to withdraw jobs from Northern Ireland was and Whitby (Mr Goodwill)—to his new position. I also in response to the need to bring vehicle licensing and welcome the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for registration up to date and into line with developments Birmingham, Northfield (Richard Burden). in IT systems in Great Britain, and to provide a much- improved service. However, in his second reply, he outlined Northern Ireland is a public sector-led economy. Last that the removal of 380 jobs from Northern Ireland week, we were pleased that the Prime Minister came would achieve significant savings for UK taxpayers. and led on an international investment conference. Importantly, private sector jobs should supplement jobs Will the new Minister therefore clarify the reasoning in the public sector. We want to see a fair and equal behind the proposal? Is it simply a cost-saving exercise distribution of the private sector jobs that we hope will that will obviously have a disproportionate impact on flow from the Prime Minister’s visit and the visit of staff in Northern Ireland, as well as on the wider international investors last week. In this debate, we are community that relies on the services provided, or is it all telling the Minister and his Department, “No about developments in IT systems, through which local decentralisation of services.” There is a dichotomy of people will also lose jobs and services? If the Department policy, in that the Government and the Northern Ireland for Transport is looking at the proposal as a means of Executive believe in decentralisation because it can cutting costs, it should consider the views of those underpin the bedrock of the local economy, but by the employed in the service, who are some of the most same token, taking jobs away means centralisation dedicated people in the public service of Northern to us. That issue needs to be explored, answered and Ireland. corrected. Naomi Long (Belfast East) (Alliance): I thank the The current proposal to centralise vehicle registration hon. Lady for giving way, and I pay tribute to the hon. and licensing services in Swansea will remove 324 full-time Member for East Londonderry (Mr Campbell) for securing equivalent posts from Northern Ireland, which in real the debate. It is right that all parties are giving support terms will have an impact on about 380 employees, and on the issue. Does she agree that if the proposal is about will also have an impact on the services provided. modernising how the service is delivered, such a As a result of an intervention by the then Northern modernisation could be delivered in Northern Ireland Ireland Minister of the Environment, my party colleague without the need for closing the base there? We can Alex Attwood, with the Under-Secretary of State for already deliver a high-quality service, and modernisation Transport, the hon. Member for Wimbledon (Stephen would simply aid us in doing so, as well as allowing the Hammond), a consultation was agreed and launched by further transfer of UK services to sites in Northern the Department for Transport. The support of the Ireland. Department of the Environment in Northern Ireland for retaining those jobs and services remains constant Ms Ritchie: I thank the hon. Lady for her useful and and has been backed by all political parties in Northern beneficial intervention. Obviously, if there is to be Ireland, as was mentioned by the hon. Member for East modernisation, an idea which none of us rejects or Londonderry. A strong case has been made for not only opposes, it could take place in Northern Ireland facilities— retaining the jobs in the DVA, but expanding services in the headquarters in Coleraine and the other offices. In Northern Ireland by transferring work for UK customers fact, we could take services that currently take place in to Northern Ireland. Britain and, I have to say, perhaps do them much better, The impact will be felt in Coleraine, where the more efficiently and more diligently. headquarters are based, and in areas such as Armagh, I want to move on to the views of the staff who Ballymena, Belfast, Enniskillen, Derry, Omagh and responded to the consultation. They say that the existing Downpatrick. Under the proposal, my constituency of closure programme has had a serious impact on services South Down will see the removal of services and jobs at offered by the DVLA to the motorist in Great Britain. 181WH Driver and Vehicle Agency 15 OCTOBER 2013 Driver and Vehicle Agency 182WH (Northern Ireland) (Northern Ireland) It is unclear whether those services can be properly Swansea since this programme started have totalled managed, but no doubt they could be if they were £1.63 million? Does that not make a complete nonsense brought to Northern Ireland. of the centralisation case? Interestingly, a commissioned study by Oxford Economics has estimated that the DVLA proposal for Ms Ritchie: I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention. the removal of services from Northern Ireland would I was told that the figures for overtime payments in have a direct negative impact of £14.5 million in gross Swansea were nearer to £1.65 million. I am in no doubt value added terms, as well as an impact of £7 million on that the work that precipitated those overtime payments workplace wages in the Northern Ireland economy, could clearly be carried out in Northern Ireland where which, given the size of Northern Ireland, is a remarkable the service to the customer and the dedication of the statistic. The removal of £22.2 million from the Northern staff are second to none. I urge the Minister to keep Ireland economy will have an impact on all its sectors, the DVAjobs and services throughout Northern Ireland. notably wholesale and retail trade, accommodation spaces, If he does that, he and his Department will not be food services, entertainment and recreation, plus financial found wanting. services, property, housing and the supply industries—and all that at a time of economic downturn, although there 10.12 am might be a slight lift that we would all welcome. The figures I have cited for what would be removed Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP): I am happy, from the Northern Ireland economy do not add up to Mrs Riordan, to take part in this debate. I recognise what the Under-Secretary of State for Transport, the that this situation is not unique to Northern Ireland, hon. Member for Wimbledon stated would be significant because, of course, 1,200 jobs across the United Kingdom savings. Surely, a more acceptable form of improvement will be lost in 39 regional offices. However, the difference would be to upgrade the DVA’s IT systems. We must ask is that one quarter of those jobs are located in Northern why the IT systems in Northern Ireland have been Ireland, and one sixth of them are in one town. Our neglected, and not upgraded as a matter of necessity case is that there will be a disproportionate impact on over the years. We ask that question because that has one area, which has already suffered significantly from been replicated in other service areas. Some people say job losses. that, over recent years, some areas might have been I want to consider three areas this morning. First, prepared for privatisation and others for closure. For will the new system be better than what we have at me, it is simply a case of downgrading a service and present? The Minister will argue that it will make available undermining the economic stability that exists in Northern to people in Northern Ireland services that are currently Ireland. not available. However, surveys show that not many I understand that staff working in the DVA feel that people are looking for those services. Indeed, many the service has been vigorously, systematically and have said that they do not wish to use such services. aggressively underfunded for many years by the Department Some 60% of customers and 90% of dealers say that the for Transport, despite which the staff have actively services that are being withdrawn are the ones that they sought to provide the Northern Ireland motorist—whether wish to use. The proposal, therefore, is not a response to the ordinary person with a car, someone working with what the public, who are paying for vehicle licensing, agricultural machinery or people in the haulage industry— say that they want. with an excellent level of service. That under-resourcing The people who will be affected include small dealers. has left the staff open to the business criticism and the Some 20,000 new registrations every year come through challenges in the current DVLA proposal for the future small dealers, who mostly use local DVA offices because of vehicle registration and licensing services in Northern they do not necessarily have the computer back-up Ireland. for online services. Then there are the complex cases. I am sure that, following the consultation that ended Indeed, the Department’s own estimate is that 2,000 or on this proposal on 11 September, the current Minister 3,000 complex cases will have to be dealt with by post, of the Environment in Northern Ireland will meet the so people will have to deal with Swansea, rather than Minister separately, as will a cross-party delegation of having face-to-face encounters at local DVA offices. MPs from Northern Ireland. I hope that we can relay That will inevitably lead to difficulties. The fact that a our serious concerns to him and demonstrate that the case is complex suggests that a person needs to talk to move will have a disproportionate impact on services, someone. people and jobs in Northern Ireland. By the Department’s own estimate, some 3,000 people Given the 100% opposition to the move and the will find that they are less well off. The Minister has strong case that has been made for the retention and the cited the matter of refunds and given us some figures, expansion of the services, I urge the Minister and his but if wants to ask some questions of his officials, Department immediately to review the position, retain perhaps he should ask not just about refunds but about the jobs and, as the hon. Member for East Londonderry first registrations, changes to registrations and the average said, visit the office in Coleraine and pay a snapshot wait at offices. On all those matters, Swansea’s performance visit to the other offices. They should do that in conjunction is poorer than that of the DVA offices in Northern with the local Minister of the Environment, Mr Durkan, Ireland. Service will be reduced to a wide range of who has a clear picture of what is going on and who has customers and on a wide range of issues. been steadfastly opposed to the closure. On fraud—I can see my colleagues laughing here—we have a rigorous system in place for those in Northern Stephen Pound: Does the hon. Lady agree that as the Ireland who do not pay their road tax. Indeed, I have efficiency case has been lost, cost is clearly the issue? Is been a victim of it. No allowances are ever accepted. I she aware, as many of us are, that overtime payments in got caught taking my motorbike to the garage to get it 183WH Driver and Vehicle Agency 15 OCTOBER 2013 Driver and Vehicle Agency 184WH (Northern Ireland) (Northern Ireland) [Sammy Wilson] I ask the Minister to give serious consideration to one suggestion that has been made. Yes, there will be a prepared for an MOT. Even though I could prove that, transition; there is resistance to the changes. There is officials said that it was on the road without tax, so I quite clear evidence that people still want to use the got fined and received a lot of publicity. Because of DVA services. If the new system were put in place, those such rigorous enforcement, we have the lowest rate of who wish to use the new services and the new methods evasion of anywhere in the United Kingdom. If that of delivering them could do so, and those who did not goes up—only seven prosecutors will be left and no wish to use them—that residual group of people—could arrangements have been made with local agencies—there still use the full DVA services. That would probably will be a loss to the Exchequer. mean that 100 jobs would be lost immediately, but the On whether the service will be better, the answer has rest of the jobs would be retained. Three offices would to be no, it will not. Will it save money? We already remain, but the rest would have to close. That is the know that one reason behind the centralisation is the estimate that has been made in Northern Ireland. Over huge capital costs involved in the new IT system. time, that situation might change as people get used to the new services, but at least this option would avoid the big bang of sudden job losses—all the jobs going—and Mr Campbell: My hon. Friend alluded to whether the there would be no gap for people who need, or want, to service will get better. As a number of Members have use the face-to-face services. said, it appears that it will get worse. Does he agree that Choosing that option would also produce considerable the service in Northern Ireland will not only suffer? savings. The savings on the running costs would be Given the figures on the centralised process in Swansea, £4.5 million—a 36% reduction in running costs in Northern which a number of us have outlined, the service in the Ireland and twice the savings that the Driver and Vehicle rest of the United Kingdom will also suffer because of Licensing Agency anticipate will result from the change the additional work load that Swansea will have to deal to the integrated system. So the Minister could make with if centralisation goes ahead. the case for choosing that option on the basis that savings would still be available. Sammy Wilson: That is the point that I want to make Choosing that option would also mean that DVA in relation to cost. The hon. Member for Ealing North staff in Northern Ireland would be trained on the new (Stephen Pound) said that as a result of centralisation system. Bearing in mind what has already been said and the additional work load, even some of the savings about the pressures that exist on the Swansea system at that had been anticipated have not been realised because present, choosing that option would provide a contingency overtime payments have gone up. for DVLA to fall back on—a contingency of trained Of course, the additional work load that will result staff in Northern Ireland, in a place where, as has from the Northern Ireland move will put further pressure already been pointed out, productivity is far greater on the system. I suspect that the 400 new jobs that will than elsewhere. So choosing that option has a number be created in Swansea will not be sufficient to deal with of benefits. It is one way to retain a significant number the work load, so some of the savings anticipated in the of jobs in Northern Ireland and avoid the proposal’s proposal will not be realised. We must look at what the high economic impact on one part of the United Kingdom. customers want and what is feasible for the Treasury. The impact would be disproportionate, but I will not go The additional costs must also be considered. through all the figures that other Members have already mentioned. We do not get much cross-departmental thinking, but we are talking about an area with high unemployment. I There are, of course, other options, including transferring supported the restructuring of the Northern Ireland blocks of services, but I do not think that the Minister economy, and I would love to think that all the people can simply say, “Look, we have decided that all these who will be displaced as a result of the DVA decision services will be withdrawn, and there will be this huge will easily move into jobs in the private sector, but when gap left in the job market in Northern Ireland.” To me, there have already been significant job losses in the saying that would not be good for customers, the Exchequer private sector in towns such as Coleraine, the only place or the Northern Ireland economy, and it would not that they will move to is the dole queue. That in itself make sensible use of the skills that already exist in adds additional costs to the public purse, so I do not Northern Ireland and that will be abandoned if this believe that there is an economic case for this change change is made. either. I do not want simply to say to the Minister, “Look, 10.24 am we don’t like this, so don’t do it,” but a number of Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): It is a pleasure to meet options have been proposed, and the “do nothing” under your chairmanship this morning, Mrs Riordan. option is one of them. The IT costs, which have already been sunk, will be lost. The Department wishes to give I commend the hon. Member for East Londonderry additional services to people in Northern Ireland, even (Mr Campbell) for securing this debate on an issue that though the majority of them do not want those services. obviously affects not only many people in his constituency, Indeed, I point out to the Minister that even after but people right across Northern Ireland, including 10 years in Great Britain 50% of people still do not use people in the Driver and Vehicle Agency in my own online services, so we are not unique in Northern Ireland constituency, which is in Foyle street in Derry. in that respect. As I say, the “do nothing” option has We have heard that this is not only about protecting been proposed. Choosing it would not cost anything, the significant number of jobs in the DVA in Northern but of course the costs of the IT system have already Ireland, but about protecting the existing level and been sunk. quality of services and, indeed, trying to improve them 185WH Driver and Vehicle Agency 15 OCTOBER 2013 Driver and Vehicle Agency 186WH (Northern Ireland) (Northern Ireland) with future investment. Other hon. Members have quoted and resource that exists in Coleraine—would give the the high customer satisfaction indicators in Northern DVLA the option and the flexibility of having a centre Ireland that are running at between 98% and 100%. Of of excellence that it can rely on alongside Swansea. course, we heard the hon. Member for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson) describe himself as a victim of the Mr Goodwill: The hon. Gentleman mentioned some DVA system as it currently operates, but he actually of the problems with the Scottish motor trade. The presented himself here in Westminster Hall today as a DVLA has acknowledged that it had temporary issues satisfied victim. [Laughter.] That just shows the degree when some of the complex work was transferred from to which there is customer satisfaction. The fact that he the GB local offices to Swansea. The DVLA has worked can advertise his own victimhood as a justification for with the motor industry, and I understand that those keeping the status quo, and building and improving on issues have been rectified and performance is back up to it, says an awful lot for the DVA and its staff in target now. Northern Ireland. It also possibly says something for the hon. Member, too, who I never thought would Mark Durkan: I am not sure that I am fully persuaded appear as a satisfied victim. There again, my expectations by the Minister’s points, which, I accept, he has put on have been confounded. record. I think that I and others will test them with It is important to recognise that it is not only the other soundings. defence of the jobs and services that has galvanised I want to make the point that we have had experience people from all parties and, indeed, from beyond party in Northern Ireland of other services being centralised. lines in the north of Ireland, but the way in which it A number of years ago, when tax credits were introduced took an intervention by the previous Environment Minister there was for a brief period a tax credit office in in Northern Ireland, Alex Attwood, even to get a Northern Ireland, which tried to deal with complex consultation exercise provided by the Department for cases; not all of them should have been complex, but by Transport. the nature of that system they became complex. We Then, of course, there was the whole offensive implication ended up with somebody having a bright idea, saying, that came in the context of discussing this issue—namely, “Let’s centralise tax credit.” The tax credit office was that removing the jobs from Northern Ireland would be removed from Northern Ireland, although many cases a way to remove any threat or fear of religious or in Northern Ireland are particularly complicated and sectarian bias. That was rightly seen as a direct slur, not people unable to deal with or understand the needs and only on the DVA’s work force, but on the entire public circumstances of people there, not least the cross-border sector work force in Northern Ireland. This idea was, cases that arise in the context of tax credits. “Well, we’ll protect you from anything that might involve As other hon. Members have said, significant cross- a suggestion of religious bias by removing jobs.” If that border issues relate to vehicle licensing, including local is the case, why stop at DVA jobs? Remove more and traders’ dealings with the DVA, particularly in respect more public sector jobs if doing so is meant to be a way of used cars with a cross-border history. From time to to try to create a shared future; it will be a shared future time, there are changes in patterns of vehicle importation of poverty and unemployment, but at least there will be across the border from the south and the trade goes the no bias. other way, with people in the south buying their cars in Rightly, the previous Minister with responsibility for the north. It is important that licensing and registration roads—the Under-Secretary of State for Transport, the in both Shannon and the DVA in the north can work hon. Member for Wimbledon (Stephen Hammond)—was together, to track, connect and make sense of those forced to apologise, to a degree, for those remarks, but things, and work with the Police Service of Northern the fact is that they hurt and stung. They also exposed Ireland and the Garda Siochana in relation to those the folly and the contrived and scrambled thinking that matters. All that would be lost and we would end up has gone into this proposal from the London end. with a repeat of the serious, chronic problems with We are not just concerned about defending the jobs border and cross-border issues on the centralisation of and the service qualities that have been described. As tax credits. other hon. Members have said, when we look at what The fear is that the logic of centralisation will be not has been happening with the Driver and Vehicle Licensing just used in driver and vehicle licensing, but extended to Agency in Britain, we are also concerned. We have seen other areas in future. Previously, we heard threatening that the presumption that providing online services will suggestions from Whitehall Ministers that, if we did not mean that everyone moves online is not borne out by make do with our lot on welfare reform, some of the the experience of the past 10 years. The chair of the servicing work—the back office work—done in relation Scottish Motor Trade Association described the situation to benefits in GB could be lost. Of course, the same in Scotland as “a shambles”, because of the closure of argument could be applied in future to proposed changes local offices and the move to centralisation. When we in the regime for annually managed expenditure and have all this evidence of the experience in other areas, of further changes in relation to welfare reform and, for course we should listen to it. example, a new standardised computer system for universal However, not only the representatives of the people credit. of Northern Ireland, but the Department for Transport We are not just defending the important jobs that we and the Minister should be listening to that evidence. need to defend in DVA, but trying to hold the line They should be saying, “Does it really make sense to against a relentless effort towards centralisation that put all the eggs into the single option of one single, goes completely against the grain of the commitments centralised location for the entire UK?” As other hon. and promises made by the Prime Minister, in recognition Members have said, allowing the DVA to be retained in of Northern Ireland’s talents and skills, its contribution Northern Ireland—in particular, the significant capacity and its offer. 187WH Driver and Vehicle Agency 15 OCTOBER 2013 Driver and Vehicle Agency 188WH (Northern Ireland) (Northern Ireland) [Mark Durkan] of service. For example, people are told to go online. That might help some, but the reality in the rest of the Here we have talent, dedication and commitment United Kingdom is that many who have that opportunity from DVA staff, who, in spite of under-investment in are not taking it. Why is that? Some cannot use online technology by the DVLA, have delivered such a good services or find doing so difficult. Instead of being of performance. That commitment should be rewarded assistance to and helping them, that is more of a not with their jobs being removed to a remote location hindrance. where the same quality of service will not be matched, People who cannot go online are promised an automated but with their jobs being retained and new investment telephone service. I must be honest and say, as a public going in, so that they can provide an even better service representative, that I am sick, sore and tired of automated to people in Northern Ireland and be able to provide services. People are told to press this or that button and that good service to people in Great Britain, as well, then move on to the next thing, after which they hope, when it makes sense for the DVLA to call on their at the end, to speak to someone. However, they just hear talents to do so. a voice. In this impersonal situation, people are nothing better than a number now. People are being promised Mrs Linda Riordan (in the Chair): One hon. Member exactly that with the services offered. They will be a wishes to catch my eye. May I ask him to bring his number, rather than a person. There is no longer a remarks to a close at about 10.40 am, so that the human face to this service, as provided. Minister and shadow Minister have time to respond? The people I represent want to talk to someone. I remember the decision being made to change things for 10.33 am representatives, regarding planning in Northern Ireland. Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP): I count People were told, “You’re not allowed to go out to sites it a privilege to serve under your chairmanship, any more. You’re to sit in an office.” Give me 10 minutes Mrs Riordan. I welcome the Minister to his new post. I on a site any day, rather than sitting for half an hour in have personal respect for him and trust that he will not an office, because then I look at the reality, not at a only enlighten us, but will give us some assistance in this piece of paper. matter, which my hon. Friend the Member for East If we are looking for the betterment of a service, it Londonderry (Mr Campbell) has brought to this Chamber. should be judged by those who use the service. People in I congratulate him on securing this debate. This matter Northern Ireland, including my constituents, are saying, goes to heart of his constituency and constituents. “We want the service retained in Northern Ireland, Other constituencies in the Province are impacted and because we believe that it is a better service, not simply affected, as well. I also pay tribute to my hon. Friend because we want to hold on to the jobs.” the Member for North Antrim (Ian Paisley) for his As the hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) efforts in this regard. I am sorry that he cannot be with mentioned, the document states: us because of the death of his brother-in-law. I trust that that family may be comforted at this time. “Centralisation at the DVLA in Swansea will in fact remove any possibility that Northern Ireland services may be biased to It must be asked, in respect of changes in service any particular religious group, since these transactions will no impacting on the community, why are such changes longer be serviced by staff based in Northern Ireland, who could being made? Are they desirable or needed? Of course, themselves hold particular beliefs.” the natural answer from those who propose those changes That is and was a slur. Who decided to put it in the is that this is better for the community. The contention document? Who thought up those words? When faced is that there is no service that could not be bettered, and by my hon. Friend the Member for North Antrim, the in many ways, yes, that is true. However, is the proposal Minister said: for the betterment of, and is the demand coming from, “I apologise for any offence that was inadvertently caused and the community? Is it better than what is offered? accept that the wording could have been clearer.”—[Official Report, I have great, grave doubts about the centralisation of 12 September 2013; Vol. 567, c. 1151.] services at the DVLA headquarters in Swansea. The What did it mean, then, if it did not mean what it said? consultation suggests that That needs to be put on the record. The person who put “The proposals may result in the closure of a network of dedicated that in the document should be hauled over the coals, offices” for that is an insult to those who have worked hard and in Northern Ireland. We know that that is not so. Why served the people— did they not describe it as it is? It will—not “may”—result in the closure. Everyone knows that, so why was it not Mr Goodwill: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? put in the document in the first place? The people are offered Dr McCrea: I only have a few seconds. “Access to electronic vehicle licensing services, which will allow” There is unanimity among elected representatives in Northern Ireland. We should retain these jobs in Northern Northern Ireland Ireland, because that would provide the best possible “motorists to license their vehicle or declare it off the road either service to our constituents, whom we represent. online or via an automated telephone service, 24 hours a day”. That means simply that they have the opportunity to go online or wait on the line—on the telephone—for this 10.39 am automated service. Richard Burden (Birmingham, Northfield) (Lab): It is We live in an impersonal age. People find that those a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Riordan. making decisions for them are getting ever further away, I add my congratulations to the hon. Member for East when they try to contact them. That is not an improvement Londonderry (Mr Campbell) on securing this debate. 189WH Driver and Vehicle Agency 15 OCTOBER 2013 Driver and Vehicle Agency 190WH (Northern Ireland) (Northern Ireland) I welcome the Minister. We are both new to our My second point is on the centralisation’s social and respective roles and we both have a long-standing interest economic impact. Hon. Members from across the political in road transport—in fact, we were both involved in a spectrum have rightly talked about that. Some 324 jobs Ford eco-driving training session some years ago, which are going in Northern Ireland, with 250 of those jobs in I will swiftly pass over because he did rather better than Coleraine. I know from personal experience in my own me. I also welcome my hon. Friend the Member for constituency that the closure of a major employment Ealing North (Stephen Pound), who takes a close interest site not only causes direct job losses, serious enough in these issues as shadow Northern Ireland Minister. though that is, but has an enormous impact on the local economy, too. Many hon. Members have made that The hon. Member for East Londonderry said that point today. The actual job losses due to the overall people always start Westminster Hall debates by saying effect of the centralisation programme in Northern that the issue is topical and important, and this one is Ireland is estimated to be closer to 500. that. The issue has rightly attracted huge concern from across the political spectrum in Northern Ireland. I will My hon. Friends the Members for South Down and raise three major issues on how the process is being for Foyle, and other hon. Members, have talked about undertaken and its potential impact on Northern Ireland. the centralisation not only being an issue for Coleraine, although that is the biggest single concentration; there My first point is about how the reform is being done. are impacts in Downpatrick, Derry and elsewhere. Bluntly, I am sure we would all support in principle the we are talking about the equivalent of many thousands modernisation of vehicle registration licensing. As has of jobs going in GB if the same scale of job losses were already been said, there has been significant neglect and to happen over here. under-investment in vehicle licensing services by the DVLA in Northern Ireland, and all drivers deserve the The Government have been rather coy about the same high level of service. It may make sense to try to likely impact of those job losses on the economy, but centralise databases between GB and Northern Ireland, not everyone else has been. Oxford Economics has to streamline the system and so on, but just because undertaken research estimating that £22 million of gross systems and databases can be streamlined does not value added a year will be removed from the Northern necessarily mean that how the service is delivered to the Ireland economy, which will add to the rising unemployment public has to be centralised, too. That point has been bill. There will be an estimated increase of some £2.5 million made by a number of hon. Members today. in the annual jobseeker’s allowance bill because of the job losses alone, and there will be a further £3.6 million The experience of DVLA centralisation in other parts lost in tax revenue. If all that is added up, along with of the UK is not encouraging. The Minister said that various other things, we are talking about substantial the initial rise in complaints has not been maintained, losses and a substantial hit to the Northern Ireland but that does not answer the full point. My hon. Friend economy, as hon. Members have already said. the Member for Ealing North said that, since the start With such questions on what is taking place, people of the closure programme, the DVLA has spent in might think that the Government would at least have excess of £1.63 million on overtime payments, and my got their consultation procedure right, that they would hon. Friend the Member for South Down (Ms Ritchie) have started the consultation in a timely fashion, that corrected him by saying that the figure is worse than they would have done it sensitively and that they would that—£1.65 million. have listened to advice from people on the ground who If that amount has been spent so far on overtime know what the real situation is. That just has not payments for the centralisation process, something is happened, has it? The Government failed to listen to going wrong. That is no criticism of the staff at Swansea, local people’s concerns. who do a professional job, as their colleagues do in I pay tribute to the work of those, including the other parts of the UK, but there is a real question about former Northern Ireland Environment Minister, Alex whether Swansea is equipped to cope with the increased Attwood, who got the Government to consult in the demand of the centralisation programme. We would all first place. However, as many hon. Members have question whether centralisation from Northern Ireland mentioned, the consultation document contains accusations should be added to the demand already being created in that are, frankly, offensive—not to one section but to Swansea without significant investment. every section of the community in Northern Ireland. I have some practical examples. In Scotland, all That requires a bit more than a public apology. I applications to transfer a personal registration plate welcome the public apology from the Minister concerned, from one car to another moved to Swansea, which led but the Government need to think about how they came to processed applications falling well behind the seven-day to issue a consultation document containing that kind target. The Scottish Motor Trade Association, as my of thing in the first place. hon. Friend the Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) said, I hope the Minister will reflect on what has been said reported delays of up to six weeks and described the today, and I hope he will reflect on what the Prime situation as “a shambles.” That has caused frustration, Minister said on his recent visit to Northern Ireland. He and it is poor service. was over there promoting Northern Ireland, rightly, as a destination for inward investment. He said: It is not good enough for the Minister simply to say, “Well, we are getting on top of this,” because we need to “Put your money in Northern Ireland and be part of this learn from what has happened. We need to know how incredible success story because investing in Northern Ireland the Government have got on top of the situation and makes good business sense.” whether the centralisation in Northern Ireland will make Well, amen to that. But if that is the message to the matters worse; it seems to me that it is likely to. We private sector, perhaps the Government need to consider should not repeat the situation. their own activities. 191WH Driver and Vehicle Agency 15 OCTOBER 2013 Driver and Vehicle Agency 192WH (Northern Ireland) (Northern Ireland) [Richard Burden] as those in GB and can enjoy the same services. If the proposals outlined in the consultation were adopted—I Unless and until the Minister can provide clear answers must stress that I have not yet decided on the way to the important issues raised today on the services that forward—motorists in Northern Ireland would be able will be at risk, on the scale of job losses involved, on the to tax their cars online and via an automated telephone impact on the benefits bill and on the hit to the UK service that would be available 24 hours a day all year taxpayer, and until he can quantify exactly what benefits round. Many more services would also be available at will accrue from the change, perhaps—even though the about 150 post offices throughout Northern Ireland. consultation is formally coming to an end—he should Services to businesses in Northern Ireland would also pause, think again and come back with a considered be improved. Companies would have access to the same response. The way things look at the moment, although level of service as those in the rest of the UK, allowing the issue has been bouncing around for years, the them to streamline their processes so that they did not consultation has been botched. There are very serious have to manage the registration and licensing of vehicles question marks about the centralisation, and the differently from companies in GB. Government need to address them. The changes proposed in the consultation would also ensure that motorists in Northern Ireland can never 10.49 am again fall behind those in GB when new services are The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport introduced in the future. When the DVLA introduces (Mr Robert Goodwill): I, too, congratulate the hon. more digital and online services in GB, those would Member for East Londonderry (Mr Campbell) on securing become available to Northern Ireland motorists at the this debate on the future of vehicle registration and same time. licensing services in Northern Ireland. I also welcome I acknowledge that introducing new services online my opposite number, the hon. Member for Birmingham, and through post offices and centralising the delivery of Northfield (Richard Burden), to his place. I hope we the remaining services delivered by the DVAin Northern can work together constructively—at least most of the Ireland at the DVLA in Swansea would have an impact. time. Currently, the full-time equivalent of 324 staff work on Let me acknowledge from the outset that I recognise vehicle registration and licensing services at the DVA in that this is an important and emotive subject for the Coleraine. Introducing more online services and making hon. Member for East Londonderry, his constituents more services available at post offices would mean that and other hon. Members in Northern Ireland. In that those staff were no longer needed for that work. The respect, he will be pleased to know he has friends in DVLA forecasts that 75% of the transactions currently high places, because the First Minister raised the issue undertaken by Northern Ireland motorists would be with the Prime Minister on Friday, and the Secretary of carried out online or at local post offices. State for Northern Ireland telephoned me on Sunday to discuss it personally; indeed, when I had my briefing I stress that, despite many reports and statements to session, I invited an official from the Northern Ireland the contrary, there is no intention to remove those jobs Office, to ensure the voice of Northern Ireland was from Coleraine to create the same number of new jobs heard—talk about friends in high places. in Swansea. The DVLA estimates that, if the new online and post office services are introduced in Northern Against that backdrop, I must explain that, as the Ireland, there would remain about 500,000 transactions hon. Gentleman will know, vehicle registration and where customers needed to deal directly with the DVLA. licensing throughout the UK is an excepted matter and That sounds significant, but the DVLA in Swansea the responsibility of the UK Government. In GB, these currently deals with 97 million vehicle transactions a services are delivered by the Driver and Vehicle Licensing year. The extra 500,000 could be absorbed by the DVLA Agency, in Swansea. In Northern Ireland, the DVLA with no increase in staff numbers and no effect on has an agreement with the Driver and Vehicle Agency, customer services. which is part of the Northern Ireland Department of the Environment, to deliver vehicle registration and To answer a point made by the hon. Member for East licensing services to motorists there. The DVA has Antrim (Sammy Wilson) and the shadow Minister, the traditionally delivered those services through its centre proportion of tax discs issued online is running at about in Coleraine and eight other offices in Northern Ireland. 60%, and it is increasing. Of course, face-to-face services would also be available in post offices in Northern While I understand the hon. Gentleman’s concerns, Ireland. the crux of the issue is that the vehicle registration and licensing services available to motorists in Northern We must recognise that we are now in a fast-changing, Ireland have fallen behind those available in the rest of digital world. Customers expect to be able to transact the UK. For example, motorists in Northern Ireland when and where they like—increasingly, from the comfort are unable to tax their cars online and have only limited of their own homes. The way in which services have services available at post offices. As the owner of more been delivered in the past, and the higher number of than a dozen vehicles, I must say I find the online tax people required to deliver them, is becoming unsustainable. system very simple. I can tax a tractor in 20 seconds; That is particularly true when more convenient and where I have to pay to tax a vehicle, it takes about two efficient alternatives are available and in use elsewhere minutes. Otherwise, I would have to travel four miles to in the UK. my nearest post office, which I cannot, of course, do on Indeed, the DVLA is going through its own a Sunday night. transformation process, which has resulted in many The consultation that has recently ended contains more services being made available at local post offices proposals to modernise services in Northern Ireland and in other services being centralised at the DVLA’s and to ensure that motorists there are treated the same headquarters, in Swansea. That means that all the DVLA’s 193WH Driver and Vehicle Agency 15 OCTOBER 2013 Driver and Vehicle Agency 194WH (Northern Ireland) (Northern Ireland) local offices in GB will close by the end of the year, with about the impact that the loss of more than 300 jobs the loss of 1,200 jobs. The proposals for Northern would have on the economy of not only Coleraine, but Ireland vehicle registration and licensing services are no Northern Ireland generally. different from what is already happening in the rest of The Department of the Environment in Northern the country. Ireland, which employs the DVA staff, has stated that it will seek to redeploy them and avoid the need for Richard Burden: The Minister is talking about the redundancies, where possible. However, I understand DVLA’s systems, but one important issue raised by that there are some local issues. For example, 73% of Members from Northern Ireland, which I raised as well, the workers are female, so redeployment may not be was the impact on the Northern Ireland economy. We possible, for family reasons. In the event that a decision have heard the Oxford Economics estimate of direct is taken to press ahead with the proposals outlined in and indirect job losses and of the impact on GVA. Will the consultation, I will make sure that the DVLA works the Minister confirm those figures? If he is unable to do openly with its counterparts in Northern Ireland to so today, will he write to hon. Members with the develop a transition plan for the affected staff so that Government’s assessment of the impact on the Northern the impact can be reduced. Ireland economy? There is some question about how many people in Mr Goodwill: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his Northern Ireland will want to use online services or will question. Unemployment in Northern Ireland is lower be able to do so, given limits to broadband internet than the UK average, and it has fallen by 1.2% in the access. The 2013 Ofcom report shows that 80% of past year. The analysis provided by Oxford Economics Northern Ireland households have internet access, and does not reflect the full impact the changes to the DVA’s 93% of addresses are connected to high-speed fibre-optic operations will have, because it takes no account of the broadband, owing to investment by the Northern Ireland benefits from the expansion of digital services and the Assembly. That compares well with the rest of the UK. widening of services offered at post offices. Those changes However, some people will be unwilling or unable to use will increase choice and ease of access for customers digital services at this time, and it is, of course, their and reduce the cost of vehicle licensing and registration right to make that choice. That is why many of the to businesses, ultimately increasing employment in Northern services currently available only at the DVA’s centre Ireland. in Coleraine or at one of the eight other local offices in Northern Ireland will become available at about Mr Campbell: The Minister alluded to the 1,200 job 150 post offices. losses in the rest of the UK. Does he accept that To summarise, while I understand the concerns that Northern Ireland, which has a much greater dependency the hon. Member for East Londonderry and other hon. on the public sector, has one thirtieth of the population Members have expressed, I am keen to stress the positive of GB, so 1,200 lost jobs in GB should equate to 40 lost benefits the changes would bring to Northern Ireland jobs in Northern Ireland? However, rather than losing motorists, if adopted. I hope I have done that today. 40, we will lose 500. The wider availability of online and face-to-face services can only benefit customers. Mr Goodwill: I appreciate that a large number of The Minister previously responsible for this matter, people in Northern Ireland are employed in the public the Under-Secretary of State for Transport, my hon. sector, which means these job changes, should they Friend the Member for Wimbledon (Stephen Hammond), happen, would have all the more impact—particularly had agreed to meet the hon. Gentleman and other hon. in places such as Coleraine, which is isolated from parts Members to discuss this matter. I am pleased to confirm of the country where other public service jobs may be. that I am prepared to have that meeting, if not on There are also economic facts that need to be considered. 4 November, when it was scheduled to take place, then If introduced, these changes will save taxpayers throughout around that time. I stress that no decisions will be made the UK £12 million a year, while introducing significant until after that meeting. No firm timetable has been set, new services for motorists in Northern Ireland. I understand but we expect a decision by the end of this year or early that hon. Members from Northern Ireland are concerned next year. 195WH 15 OCTOBER 2013 Health Services (North-West 196WH London) Health Services (North-West London) Ms Buck: I agree with my hon. Friend. Of course, the proposed closures and the “Shaping a healthier future” strategy are themselves set against a financial context 11 am that puts extreme pressure on delivery.North-west London hospital services must accommodate a £125 million Ms Karen Buck (Westminster North) (Lab): I am reduction in service between 2011 and 2015. At the grateful for the opportunity to raise some issues in this same time—and this is pertinent to the core of my short debate, and I welcome the Minister to her role. It comments—local authorities have imposed dramatic is good to have a London colleague here to respond to cuts in their social care budgets. That is particularly the debate, which deals with my serious concerns about germane to the issue, because the work of local authority the management of the delivery of health services in care services relates to prevention and hospital discharge north-west London. arrangements, and needs to be integrated with those I asked for the debate with considerable sadness. I areas, so that the highly pressured hospital service can have been involved with health care delivery in north-west work effectively. London for decades, on the community health council, Of course, another factor is the impact of the top-down when it existed, and as a member of the health authority NHS reorganisation that we were told would never for the same area; and for many years I enjoyed positive happen, and the £3 billion that it cost, which has taken relationships with hospital management and primary valuable resources and a great deal of energy away from care trusts, so it is of concern to me that I shall be the planned delivery of services. The slow death of the describing a diversion away from such good relationships primary care trusts and the slow emergence of clinical and communications, and the serious implications of commissioning groups during a time of massive changes that. has been part of the problem. The debate is not about individuals, although I have concerns arising from the communication of some Colleagues such as my hon. Friend the Member for individuals’ views about health care delivery in recent Hammersmith have legitimate concerns about the effect months. The problem is structural, and it is not fixable of the proposed A and E closures on their communities. just by improvements in the exchange of e-mails. It goes St Mary’s hospital was not scheduled to lose its A and E to the heart of trust and clarity in the way health care is unit, and we were pleased about that. I and others were provided. I am not alone in my concerns—I know other briefed about ambitious plans for the development of a elected officials feel the same; but this is not just about new, improved emergency care service, to be built at politicians having our noses put out of joint when St Mary’s hospital. During the discussions and briefings communications are not handled effectively. It is about there was no suggestion that there would be any specific some fundamental questions that have arisen, to do consequential changes in the pattern of hospital services with how care is and will be provided to my constituents, at St Mary’s. Therefore, when, at the invitation of my and residents of the London borough of Westminster, hon. Friend the Member for Hammersmith, I attended where St Mary’s hospital is situated. the independent review panel called to consider the A and E closures in other parts of west London, I was Because the challenges are so great in north-west somewhat taken aback to be asked by the chairman London, as they are, indeed, in many parts of the health how I felt about the closure of up to 200 beds at service, it is even more incumbent on those who deliver St Mary’s, and the movement away of most or all and manage health care to ensure that communications elective surgery, as part of the consequential changes are clear, that there is a shared strategic approach to resulting from “Shaping a healthier future”. planning, and that there are common assumptions. As the Minister knows, the backdrop to the issue is important I immediately contacted the chief executive of the changes in the provision of hospital care and the “Shaping Imperial college health care trust, to ask whether that a healthier future” strategy for north-west London. was accurate, what the implications were, and why I and That, of course, proposes the closure of several accident others had not been told. That was not because I am and emergency units in north-west London. automatically totally opposed to consequential changes in service delivery. We must be grown up about such Fortunately, from my point of view—because it things, and it is right that hospitals evolve and change. something about which we all care very much—A and E Things should not be, and never have been, set in stone. will not be closed at St Mary’s hospital in Westminster. Good clinical reasons and financial necessity may drive It is good to see my hon. Friends the Members for change. However—and this is my theme today—to Hammersmith (Mr Slaughter) and for Ealing North make that change work there must be clarity and (Stephen Pound) here for the debate; I know that my partnership, and everyone must understand what is colleagues have concerns about how emergency services being proposed and how decisions are to be taken. will be provided in their areas when A and E units close. First, the Imperial trust referred me back to the Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab): My hon. “Shaping a healthier future” proposals, and to a slide Friend shares my pain. Four out of nine accident and pack that was shown to me and the hon. Member for emergency units are designated for closure, and two of Cities of London and Westminster (Mark Field) in the those are in my constituency; but the point that she is spring. That set out very broad headings for how services making is that every MP in north-west London shares at the three hospitals in the Imperial group—Hammersmith, the pain, because there is simply no capacity in the Charing Cross and St Mary’s—would develop. There system to cope with such a decline in emergency services. was nothing in it that would have led me to conclude The sooner the Government and the NHS realise that, that St Mary’s would lose the bulk—or all—of its the better. elective surgery. 197WH Health Services (North-West 15 OCTOBER 2013 Health Services (North-West 198WH London) London) I checked with Westminster council, to see whether I “Charing Cross will also become a specialist centre for community was missing the blindingly obvious. I am grateful to the services which means that the many thousands of older and excellent health strategy officer at the council, who has chronically ill patients, who need regular visits to hospital, will been a model of clarity in explaining how things worked. have less far to travel. It will mean local people will be better supported to live independently at home”. He told me, with, I believe, the full agreement of local authority members, that the authority—a statutory partner, It was good of Imperial to share that vision with which there is a requirement to consult about major Hammersmith and around Charing Cross, but it is a changes in hospital services— great shame that it chose not to share a single word with Westminster city council. “did not receive any indication that there would be significant consequential changes to elective surgery at St Mary’s Hospital as Reinforcing my hon. Friend’s point about chaos, a result of Shaping a Healthier Future. Furthermore, Westminster however, I am not sure that even that is the true picture, City Council has not been informed of any proposals to re-locate because when I showed the press releases on Charing much or all elective surgery currently performed at St Mary’s Cross from Hammersmith council to the chief executive Hospital to Charing Cross and any developments in this area of Imperial in September, I was told that it was spin on would be submitted to both the Cabinet Member and Chairman of Health Scrutiny to investigate.” Hammersmith’s part and that what was proposed was only a 23-hour ambulatory care model, with no new He said the authority would consider the assumption beds at all. It is hard to square that with Hammersmith by the chief executive of the Imperial hospital group council’s vision and harder still to know what is true. “that these proposals were in the Decision Making Business Case I do not begrudge Hammersmith residents their to be incorrect”, hospital—quite the reverse—but I am concerned about and continued: any sense of deals being done to secure their future, at “At Imperial College Healthcare NHS Trust’s Board meetings the expense of local residents in Westminster and, critically, on 24th July and 25th September, we were informed that Imperial without so much as an opportunity for Westminster were considering their options.” council even to consider the matter or to think about Indeed, the chief executive of Imperial verbally, when support services or the community care dimension, I met him, and in writing indicated that no decisions which Hammersmith so rightly talks about as important had been taken and that the timetable for such decisions in a local hospital context and which can be applied to was for conclusion in the New Year. On 23 August, he Westminster. If Hammersmith council can proudly claim wrote: that its new hospital means that “I can assure you we are very much in the modelling and “the many thousands of older and chronically ill patients, who evaluation stages of any changes so are yet to consider whether need regular visits to hospital, will have less far to travel”, we should propose moving any clinical services between our surely that cannot mean that older and chronically ill sites”— Westminster residents, who also need regular visits to note the use of “any”. That letter was widely circulated, hospital, should have further to travel—with no debate so clarification could have come from other members of and no chance to put in place social care support or the local health service family, but no such clarification travel arrangements. was received—to coin a phrase. Things get worse. Four weeks after my meeting with Meanwhile, a quick look at Hammersmith council’s the chief executive of Imperial, all my follow-up questions website showed me that it was promising its community about what that means, whether decisions have been a reinvigorated Charing Cross hospital, but on a basis made or what services will be located where still remain that did not appear to have been explained by Imperial unanswered. That is no doubt partly a consequence of to anyone in Westminster. Hammersmith announced in the unexpected departure of the chief executive, who September: has been replaced in what is clearly a holding operation, “News that elective surgery is now on the list of possible future in a manner that does not indicate a smooth and services would further boost the amount of expertise at the site, planned transition. meaning patients in the local community benefit from the care it gives, and giving it greater status as a teaching hospital.” Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab): Is my hon. Friend aware that one of the justifications for the closure Mr Slaughter: My hon. Friend is making a good case of the A and E department mooted for Ealing hospital for the second of our concerns, which is not the closures is that it will be possible for ill Ealonians to glide themselves, but the chaotic, shambolic and amateur effortlessly through the gentle traffic of west London way in which they are being carried out. In the past six and rock up at St Mary’s in Praed street for their months, I have been told that Charing Cross hospital essential treatment? Will she enlighten us as to whether will close and be a clinic, a local hospital, a specialist she feels that the closure, or proposed closure, of some social care hospital—whatever that is—or an elective of the St Mary’s beds should have been put to the good surgery hospital. The person who told me most of those people of Ealing? things, the chief executive of Imperial, has just left, suddenly, after only two years in the job. That is typical of the utter chaos in the hollowed-out NHS in north-west Ms Buck: I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend. It is London and, no doubt, elsewhere. surely impossible to make decisions about one hospital after discussion with only one local authority—with its statutory responsibilities on consultation and delivery Ms Buck: I totally endorse my hon. Friend’s words. of services—and simply fail to talk about them to To return to my point about how Hammersmith anyone else. I am afraid that that prompts so many council is presenting its achievements in winning services questions about whether Imperial and, possibly, the for Charing Cross that no one in Westminster or at north-west London clinical commissioning groups have St Mary’s hospital knows about, Hammersmith continued: buckled under the political pressure in Hammersmith— 199WH Health Services (North-West 15 OCTOBER 2013 Health Services (North-West 200WH London) London) [Ms Buck] years and without any going to formal consultation? What action can she take to ensure that the whole I understand that, political pressure is a reality—and process of statutory consultation is not undermined by have simply failed to recognise that they have responsibilities hospitals such as Imperial not even telling councils such elsewhere in north-west London. as Westminster that substantial service changes have Things get even worse, I am afraid. I then had a letter taken place, and that there is clarity on what decisions from a north-west London CCG to say that the “Shaping will be taken when, including in the context of the a healthier future” programme did not include the foundation trust application? St Mary’s site as one of those that would undertake I have one last thing to say before the Minister’s reply, routine planned elective surgery, but that that work was which I am looking forward to. This letter from Imperial, modelled to transfer to the Central Middlesex hospital, dated 15 February, made me smile: which was designated as one of the elective centres in “Clearly we need to reassess aspects of our attitude to our north-west London—the first that any of us had heard health care partners in NW London, including the bodies that are about the Central Middlesex being part of the equation, newly established as a result of NHS reform. Stakeholders clearly and a fact not mentioned by Imperial. The letter went expect more engagement and visibility from me”— on to say: the chief executive— “As the Trust are still undertaking this work and have not “and my team in order that we may win and cement your trust. reached any conclusions they are yet to consider whether it Equally we are too often perceived as defensive and not good should propose changing the location of any clinical services listeners in our approach and we are resolved to address that issue between their sites and therefore are not yet in the position to ask at all levels where we interact with the external world”. the relevant OSCs”— That letter, I am afraid, turned out not to be worth the overview and scrutiny committees— paper it was written on. In fact, we have had something “about consultation on this”. of a car crash on communications over recent months. Note again, the use of “any”. This matters not for us—not for our sense of probity or self-importance—but for the delivery of health care to Since then, however, further questions have emerged, patients. This is a serious and structural problem, and I including the suggestion that almost all elective specialties hope that the Minister will not only respond today, but have already moved. So far from being the subject of get a grip on the situation, so that we can learn from the future consultation and decision making, they have mistakes and make urgent improvements. already moved, without any formal consultation on anything with Westminster council since 2011. That implies that no one actually knows where Westminster 11.19 am residents are being treated—an absence of grip that I find worrying. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health (Jane Ellison): This is the first time I have served under Westminster council was therefore prompted to write your chairmanship, Mrs Riordan—in fact, under anyone’s to Imperial at the end of last week to say: chairmanship, because it is my first Westminster Hall “We are at a loss to understand the presentation made to the debate. It is good to start off with such a straightforward Westminster Adults, Health and Community Protection Committee and easy subject. on September 25th” I congratulate the hon. Member for Westminster when it was told that North (Ms Buck) on securing the debate. I am a London “options as to what elective work could be located at Charing MP and I know that this matter is important to her and Cross Hospital were being investigated. her constituents, to the constituents of her hon. Friends Westminster were informed by the North West London the Members for Ealing North (Stephen Pound) and for Commissioning Support Unit that Imperial were on course to Hammersmith (Mr Slaughter) as well as to those of develop a first view of the Outline Business Case…for the private other MPs who are not here today. meeting of Imperial’s September Trust Board. It was planned that this will take place alongside a discussion on the emerging clinical Before I turn to the issues raised, I put on record my strategy. Following feedback from the Board, the complete OBC thanks to the staff of the NHS for their commitment would be finalised to go back to the Board in the autumn for and dedication in providing a first-class service, particularly approval—Imperial are required to obtain NHS Trust Development as they enter a period of change. We know that that is Authority sign-off by Christmas and the OBC needs to be fully sometimes not easy, but they are maintaining a first-class aligned as part of the FT application. Westminster are still of the view that the Outline Business Cases for the Alternative Proposals commitment to patients throughout. to Ealing and Charing Cross Hospitals (which did not include the The debate around aspects of the north-west London transfer of Elective from St Mary’s) are yet to be agreed and are reconfiguration has been going on for some time, but it not confirmed.” is fair to say that the hon. Member for Westminster That is of substantive importance, and not only as an North discussed a slightly new feature of it. Today is the illustration of a monumental communications breakdown, first time I have heard in detail directly from her about precisely because health care is supposed to be moving these important issues. I will give her a response, but I in the direction of greater integration between primary, will look at the detail of what she said, reflect on it and community and local authority-provided social care. come back to her more fully after the debate. It is not How can such a model exist when a local authority, possible to do that instantly, because until now I had and, for that matter, some GPs, do not even seem to not heard directly from her about some of the problems know where their patients are being operated upon? on communication and so on in the past year that she Will the Minister ensure that Westminster council said illustrate some wider issues. and the local CCGs, together with the Westminster My understanding is that the joint committee of MPs, get an accurate status report immediately, including primary care trusts agreed in February this year that what service changes have taken place over the past two further work was needed to bring about improvements 201WH Health Services (North-West 15 OCTOBER 2013 Health Services (North-West 202WH London) London) to services at both Charing Cross and Central Middlesex Ms Buck: The Minister is kindly referring to my sense hospitals. I am aware that Imperial College Healthcare of the communication problems. To reinforce the point, is developing its clinical and site strategy based on the I should say that at the heart of this problem is a local principles set out in “Shaping a healthier future”. The authority that is meant to be a statutory partner. It has trust has put forward a case for some elective surgery to a duty to be consulted and that has clearly not happened. be carried out at the Charing Cross site and has developed That is what matters, because it is through that consultation a vision for each of its three main sites becoming that decisions are made on how a local authority performs centres of excellence for the service they provide. its role on supporting care. I want that message to go It is right that hon. Members and local authorities back to the Secretary of State. It is not a matter of should expect openness and transparency when discussing opinion; it is a matter of absolute fact that the local local health issues and changes, and the hon. Lady has authority has been ignored by Imperial for probably vividly put across that she does not feel that that has two years. happened. It is regrettable that she feels she has encountered, in her dealings with Imperial, a lack of clarity around Jane Ellison: I hear that. I believe in the role that local its clinical and site strategy and, in particular, around authorities have to play in shaping health outcomes for planned care and elective surgery. their residents; as the public health Minister, one of my jobs is to champion their role. Like Members of Parliament, The hon. Lady rightly stressed the need for partnership they care so deeply for the health of their local population working through periods of difficult change such as and are so close to them that they are well placed to these. Her comments on the overall exercise and the shape the future of health care in their area, and we expressed clinical priorities were balanced, and I take take that seriously. I will take the hon. Lady’s concern seriously what she said about wishing to work in partnership back, reflect on it and talk to the Secretary of State and her point that we can clearly do a lot better. I have about it. been assured by NHS England that a real effort will be made by the new leadership team at the trust and the There is a limit on what more I can say on the detail local clinical commissioning group to engage more fully that the hon. Lady has given me. We have a lot to look with her, other local MPs, local councillors and the at and talk to health partners about. I can only assure local NHS as the site strategy is developed. her that I take it seriously. The role of hon. Members in periods of enormous change such as this is critical, as it I am aware that the hon. Lady met the chief officer is for key local authority partners, too. That message is and the GP chair of the central London CCG to discuss fully taken on board. her concerns about the changes to planned care and I will use my remaining time to give a little background surgery in north-west London. As a result, she will on the reconfiguration. I know hon. Members will be know that under “Shaping a healthier future”, St Mary’s familiar with it, but it is worth putting on the record. will continue to provide out-patient services, diagnostics, The reconfiguration of NHS services is a matter on therapies and appropriate follow-up. I understand that which the local NHS is taking the lead, hence the work is under way to agree the best locations across importance of engaging local partners. The hon. Lady north-west London for planned care surgery services. has already made reference to the fact that we do not believe that these things can be shaped only in Whitehall. Mr Slaughter: I hear what the Minister is saying—it They have to be influenced by enormous local input. I is reasonable and I know that she is sincere—but we cannot agree with the description of the service as constantly meet these people and they are, frankly, “hollowed out”, which is neither accurate nor fair. hopeless. The issue is now becoming political. So far, we Individual health overview and scrutiny committees, have had political unity across the board and we now and the joint overview and scrutiny committees, made know that the issue is on the Secretary of State’s desk. I up of democratically elected members of all the councils implore the Minister to talk to him about these concerned, have the power to refer the reconfiguration proposals—in the interests of her party, if none other. to the Secretary of State if they believe that the consultation So far, apart from Hammersmith and Fulham council, has not been conducted appropriately, or that proposed which is supporting the closures, everyone across west changes are deemed to be not in the best interests of the London is united on this: it does not matter what party local health service. We know that one council has they are or what position they hold. This issue is moving exercised that power. from the local to the national. Will the Minister please As the hon. Lady is aware, the proposals were referred look—it is in her interest as well as ours—at what is to the Secretary of State by Ealing borough council in going wrong in north-west London before we take steps March this year; the hon. Member for Ealing North in closing hospitals that we will not be able to correct? referred to that. The Secretary of State has sought and received advice on that referral from the Independent Jane Ellison: I am not sure that describing NHS Reconfiguration Panel. I fully understand the importance colleagues as “hopeless”is a particularly helpful contribution of the Secretary of State’s decision to the hon. Members to future partnership working, but the hon. Gentleman present and to others who have been prominent in this has chosen his words in his own style, as he always does. debate. The Secretary of State is actively considering He is right to say that the matter is on the Secretary of the panel’s report and that decision will be made public State’s desk. I will report back to the Secretary of State shortly. Although I have not been pressed on when that after this debate, specifically on the new concerns expressed might be, it is imminent. I cannot say anything further by the hon. Member for Westminster North on the about the IRP’s report. dialogue and the relationship she has had. Beyond that, The one thing I want to stress is that all the changes I cannot comment further on the reconfiguration, because are being driven by clinical need and a desire to get of its status. better outcomes for patients. They are not driven by a 203WH Health Services (North-West 15 OCTOBER 2013 204WH London) [Jane Ellison] Greener Road Transport Fuels desire to save money. In that regard, I reject the comments made by the hon. Member for Hammersmith. The hon. [MR MIKE WEIR in the Chair] Lady acknowledged that the driving force behind the reconfigurations is looking at whether we can get better 2.30 pm outcomes for all our constituents through greater specialism. John Pugh (Southport) (LD): It is a pleasure to serve Ms Buck rose— under your chairmanship, Mr Weir, as always. It is also a delight to see the Minister after his recent preferment. Jane Ellison: If the hon. Lady wants to intervene The debate might not be as well titled as possible, and again, she is welcome. if it fails to run its course, I urge all and sundry not to feel the obligation simply to fill up the time. Primarily, I Ms Buck: The Minister is being generous. She refers want to talk about how we move around in a more to decisions made by Ealing council and Hammersmith environmentally sustainable way. and Fulham council, but Westminster council was not A passage from “The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy” even told about some of these changes, so it could not should be pinned up in the Department for Transport. exercise its powers on overview and scrutiny in this case. It is the definition of a bypass or a new road, described While that is absolutely true, I do not think that anyone as is setting out to change these things deliberately. They “devices that allow some people to dash from point A to point B are, however, doing it without telling anybody. very fast while other people dash from point B to point A very fast. People living at…a point directly in between, are often given Jane Ellison: As I said, I have heard the hon. Lady’s to wonder what’s so great about point A that so many people points. All relevant CCGs and trusts supported the from point B are so keen to get there, and what’s so great about overall shape of the reconfiguration. Local authorities point B that so many people from point A are so keen to get there. have been key partners in that as well. She has rightly They often wish that people would just once and for all work out made specific points on some specific aspects that affect where the hell they wanted to be.” her constituents. We will reflect on those points and come back to her. 2.31 pm Sitting suspended for Divisions in the House. 11.30 am Sitting suspended. 2.53 pm On resuming—

Mr Mike Weir (in the Chair): As all the main protagonists are here, we can resume.

John Pugh: I assume that my hon. Friend the Member for Redcar (Ian Swales)will be joining us shortly, but I think we can be less concerned about the timing of the debate, thanks to that interruption, Mr Weir. I was trying to make the point that the most environmentally sustainable thing to do is probably not to move around at all, but for most of us in the 21st century, the daily commute, the school run, the journey to work and so on, are likely to be part of our lives for some time to come. Everyone in the room is surely familiar with that, as they surely are, too, with the constant need to refuel the vehicles that they use. Everyone with a conscience in these times, when they are standing in the forecourt, probably thinks of two things: they consider price, primarily, but they also think of pollution. The Government, reflecting voters’ views, think not only of pollution and price, but of one other thing: revenue. It has long been a Government axiom that they are prepared to sacrifice revenue to achieve an environmental effect, because we all recognise that individuals by themselves are unlikely to bring about major environmental change. A community problem has to be solved on a community basis. The fundamental problem presented by our travelling— that is, apart from noise, disruption and the permanent possibility of accidental death—relates to air quality and emissions from vehicles. We can address that on a locally through things such as the congestion charge, which, in London, has been a great success in improving 205WH Greener Road Transport Fuels15 OCTOBER 2013 Greener Road Transport Fuels 206WH air quality, and in a small-scale way through David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con): Just to reinforce pedestrianisation, but that does not, by itself, do anything the point made by the hon. Member for East Lothian about the cumulative national, international and global (Fiona O’Donnell), I think the United Nations has impacts of transport. latterly described the use of wheat for petrol as a “crime The obvious remedy—not the only obvious remedy, against humanity”, which I think sums up where we are but certainly one of them—is to make fuel less polluting on that. or to make less polluting fuels, and to persuade, or alternatively, to coerce drivers to use them. A number of John Pugh: I think I might reserve the phrase “crime alternatives are clamouring for our attention. This list is against humanity” for other things, but I recognise the not complete, but I put down hydrogen, bioethanol, impact. A number of third world charities believe that biofuels, biogas—anything beginning with “bio”—electricity the net effect will further impoverish the third world and electric cars, liquefied petroleum gas and compressed and the areas that most need our help. natural gas. There are exotic alternatives, too: I am aware that my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Graham Stringer (Blackley and Broughton) (Lab): Yardley (John Hemming) runs his rather large car on The hon. Gentleman rather skated over the issue of chip fat, which is one of the more exotic possibilities. hydrogen-fuelled cars. I drove in such a car 10 years ago None of them, particularly chip fat, is wholly unproblematic. in Detroit. The technology is perfectly good. Does he I want to put the case for LPG, particularly, as the agree that hydrogen suffers from exactly the same problem least problematic alternative and the most worthy of as biofuels, which is the source material, in that we must Government support. By support, I mean fiscal support, have land to grow source material from which to extract rather than support in the form of further research and hydrogen? so on. I do not think LPG, as a mode of propelling cars, needs any further research. It can obviously been made John Pugh: I am sure that the hon. Gentleman more efficient over time, but the technology is well understands hydrogen propulsion a lot better than I do; understood and well implemented. I hope he makes a contribution. I am betraying my I would like briefly to deal with some other candidates ignorance here. I am just providing a preamble to what I and my reasons for sidelining them in this debate. I am hope will be a successful plea in favour of greater and sure that other colleagues will wish to do otherwise and more effective use of LPG. I do not in any way counter will perhaps want to highlight them. On hydrogen briefly, or dismiss the value of what the hon. Gentleman said. I think that we have to put that aside. People talk of conspiracy theories about the influence of the oil industry; David Mowat: I think hydrogen technology works there have been a good number of stories going back extremely well, but the issue is that hydrogen infrastructure decades about how any promising research into hydrogen does not exist anywhere. Some countries have tried to propulsion has been sat on, bought up or, in some way, develop hydrogen infrastructure; Iceland is an example. scotched by the oil industry. I do not know whether that The difficulty is that infrastructure exists for petrol cars is true, but even advocates of hydrogen as a fuel would but not for hydrogen. That is what will stop the use of probably acknowledge that it is not yet a mature, scalable hydrogen. technology. More research is needed, and I hope that the Government will engage with those who research in John Pugh: I am certainly surrounded by people who this field, even if they do not actively support it. are far more learned than myself in the field, but I shall Biofuels are further down the track, but consideration have the temerity to continue. of biofuels and their mandatory mixing with conventional Even if the biofuels issue has moved on to the discussion fuels, or their use as a substitute for conventional fuels, of what are called second generation biofuels, where leads us to a series of what appear to be complex people talk about not using virgin land or crops but debates. The obvious debate, held at length in the Daily municipal waste and algae, technical questions about Mail, is about whether they will add to transport costs. the reliability of supply remain, particularly if whole-scale, Another debate, particularly on the continent, is about mandatory use in other fuels is considered an option. I whether they are compatible with all forms of engine am simply pointing out that there are problems, and I development—I understand that the German car industry think hon. Members’ interventions have helped me to has reservations and has blocked progress at EU level. illustrate precisely that point. There are debates about whether they will threaten food In some ways, electric cars seem a perfect solution, security or raise food costs, and about whether they will until one considers the production costs, which are have a detrimental effect on land use as land use changes. currently high. There are issues with the battery, such as Fiona O’Donnell (East Lothian) (Lab): The hon. its weight, life and endurance, and with how the electricity Gentleman said that there is a debate about whether itself is produced; the electricity might not have been biofuels can affect food security. I quote the report from produced in a carbon-neutral way. There is also the the Select Committee on International Development, issue of flexibility of use, which I think is well understood which said that by anyone who considers the topic for a second or two: what happens when battery life is exhausted? “the FAO, the OECD and the World Bank” all agree and that it is rare for so many organisations to I recognise that electric motors can be made to become agree on a fact such as that biofuels are a threat to food more efficient; that battery technology can be increased; security. and that we can have charging points across the country—in fact, grants are, I believe, available at the moment and John Pugh: This debate is swirling around the European points are appearing—but there is still some way to go. community and effecting some progress, along the lines One of my constituents, who died over the weekend, of putting a great amount of biofuel into ordinary fuel. had been progressing with the Department for Business, 207WH Greener Road Transport Fuels15 OCTOBER 2013 Greener Road Transport Fuels 208WH

[John Pugh] being converted. However, the cost of conversion probably now exceeds the cost of purchasing both cars, so someone Innovation and Skills some new development that would in that sort of situation is unlikely to do so. The real make electric motors a lot more efficient and batteries a issue with an older car is that, having done the expensive lot more effective. Developments will be made in that conversion, can anyone guarantee that the car will not field, but my best guess—this is borne out by conversations fail in some other respect? that I have had with the motor industry—is that despite Equally, if someone is thinking about a converting a Government investment and considerable Government new car, which makes an awful lot of sense over the enthusiasm, from some Ministers at any rate, electric lifetime of the car, they will run into issues regarding cars will probably remain a niche market, extending the guarantee on the car and its servicing. The garage only as the use of hybrids becomes more popular. from where the car was bought may not be happy to Even were electric cars to take off for the motorist, deal with it once it has been converted. The guarantee we will not see electric buses, unless we call them trams, and service issues are enough to deflect all but the most and to be fair, the electric lorry is some way off. Lorries determined purchaser. necessarily travel long distances, and the cost of that and the weight of carrying batteries to enable them to Either way, there is a problem. The solution is for us do that would probably be wholly prohibitive for quite to produce and use more LPG vehicles, but we are some time to come. going backwards here. If anyone looks at the second-hand LPG market, as I have, they will find second-hand The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport Vectras and Astras, but those cars are about seven or (Mr Robert Goodwill): Does my hon. Friend agree that eight years old—vintage—simply because cars of that one of the greatest challenges to the roll-out of electric sort are not being produced for the UK market anymore. vehicles is addressing what is called range anxiety, where However, Opel, which is virtually the same company, is drivers are worried that they will, like the Duracell producing the Opel Adam, a new LPG car, as a brand rabbit, run out of power in an unfortunate place? leader. We therefore have the phenomenon where, in an allegedly not-so-developed country such as Turkey, John Pugh: Yes. I think that, to some extent, the there is a 20% uptake of LPG, while in England, the worry is misplaced. I think the range is greater than figure is 0.5%. people imagine, but that underlying anxiety makes it If the situation is poor with cars, it is probably worse difficult to sell purely electric cars, as opposed to hybrid with freight, where the whole-life cost of lorries—lorries cars; it is a lot harder ask of the consumer. In any case, are surprisingly expensive—have to be factored in by when it comes to value for the consumer, electric cars hauliers. In terms of cost per mile, it would benefit an are head to head with the new generation of the ever enormous number of hauliers to convert, as long as more efficient and quieter diesels. Looking at what is they can predict the cost over a period, but to do so, happening with car market sales, one can see the result. they must have some sort of guarantee that the financial However, even with lower emissions, more diesels clocking environment that they are in will remain somewhat more miles in bigger cars, which is what we seem to be similar. seeing at the moment, will not significantly reduce the nation’s carbon footprint in the long term. We can see how a change in the financial environment In the short term, there is also the added complication has made a difference. At one time in the north-west, of more particulates being released into the air, which quite a few LPG buses were running around—they were could have some negative short-term effects on people’s very clean indeed—but changes in the bus grant and the health. Some particulates are carcinogenic, and certainly subsidy bus companies got on their diesel simply destroyed none of them are particularly good for people’s respiratory the network, and firms such as Arriva rapidly withdrew system. Some people say that air pollution at the moment, from providing them. Initially, I thought it was an issue particularly from diesels, is as dangerous as passive of reliability and so on, but that turned out not to be the smoking. That brings me to LPG and CNG. case. LPG creates fewer emissions—15% less than petrol That is the problem. We have a solution, a partial and 40% less than diesel. It has no production problems; solution or an off-the-shelf solution, which we can we make LPG vehicles in this country. Sadly, they are implement now, but we are not making any headway, mostly left-hand-drive and exported, but they are made while the rest of Europe is. Why is that the case? Given in large numbers in this country. It is a mature technology. that we have a solution—it is not the sole solution, and It is being scaled up throughout the continent, and we it may not be the long-term solution, but we can do have in place a distribution network—something like something appreciable to reduce emissions—why has it 14,000 points minimum, with most of the major not been implemented? I think that it is because the supermarkets providing an obvious port of call for Government are not creating a sufficiently certain economic people. environment. An LPG vehicle can be easily converted—at the flick It is often said that two things in life are certain: of a switch—to a petrol vehicle without detriment to its death and taxes. The problem is that taxes to provide engine or its performance. However, when we look at fiscal environmental incentives are not that certain. what is happening with LPG in this country, we see There is a differential between LPG and petrol, but it is stagnation, with very limited production. Granted, there agreed annually. When the Government are pressed by are some post-production adaptations, but even when Members to do more, they respond with a formula—it we think about that, it is a Catch-22 situation. is in the debate pack—that goes something like this: I have looked into the issue. I own two old cars, both “The Chancellor keeps…under review and takes into account of them about 16 or 17 years old. Both have fairly large all relevant fiscal and economic impacts when taking decisions.”— engines, are quite expensive and could benefit from [Official Report, 13 November 2012; Vol. 553, c. 176W.] 209WH Greener Road Transport Fuels15 OCTOBER 2013 Greener Road Transport Fuels 210WH

On the face of it, that sounds rational, until we recognise the industry, and I hope this new Minister has an open that long-term investment requires at least medium-term mind and will listen. However, he has a bigger task: to predictability. My worry is that, without predictability, ensure the Treasury listens much harder to the Department many green technologies are destined to tread water. for Transport. That is not speculation; we just need to compare the UK with other parts of Europe and to look at what 3.16 pm happens there. The empirical evidence is clear: where there is a more far-sighted, more determined fiscal Fiona O’Donnell (East Lothian) (Lab): I congratulate climate, LPG and, I dare say, other forms of green the hon. Member for Southport (John Pugh) on securing transport expand. the debate. I do not know whether he is aware of this, I can understand the Treasury view—it is anal, it is but it is particularly appropriate that we should be perhaps sound accountancy and it is prudent—but it is having this discussion today, given that the European self-evidently a lousy business strategy, and it simply Council will vote tomorrow on the extremely important has to be challenged. When I raised the issue during the issue of the cap on the use of food products in biofuels. passage of the Finance Bill, the Treasury Minister—he There are two main reasons why I wanted to attend is now the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, and I am the debate. The hon. Gentleman gave us an incredibly assured that he is going places—replied: wide-ranging and well informed opening speech. He “I hope he will understand that the Government need to touched on air quality, and findings published today balance the provision of certainty with the ability to respond to show that poor air quality can contribute to low birth economic and fiscal developments. We can provide a degree of weight. There is, therefore, still much to discover. However, certainty…but I hope he”— that is not what I wanted to speak about. that is me— My first main reason for wanting to speak is that I “will take into account that there needs to be a certain degree of tabled a parliamentary question to the Department for fiscal flexibility.”––[Official Report, Finance Public Bill Committee, Transport, which was due for answer yesterday. I thought 13 June 2013; c. 526-27.] I might be able to elicit an answer by turning up in I appreciate that, but if there is such uncertainty, it person today. What representations have the Government prevents consumers, councils and businesses from thinking made among other members of the EU in relation to ahead and doing energy deals over many years. What is the UK’s support for the 5% cap? I do not do this often, to prevent the Treasury from making a decision on the but I want to praise the Government for their support differential that contains caveats to protect against for that cap. unpredictable, massive future volatility? I also want to speak as a member of the International An agreement could be established that gives the Development Committee, which recently published a Treasury some comfort and investors in LPG who report on food insecurity. We found that biofuels were a would like to invest further some confidence that they major contributor to food insecurity across the globe will get some return on their investment. Is it not better and especially in developing countries. In his opening to try to achieve that outcome than to have what we remarks, the hon. Gentleman said their net effect would have at the moment, which is a fiscal incentive that, if be to further impoverish the world, but we spoke in far the facts are to be believed, does not act as much of an stronger terms in our report, and we are not alone in incentive? If that incentive was working, I simply would doing so. not be here. There is no point in me or the Treasury I am talking not just about the usual NGOs, which acting in a wholly futile way. If the incentive does not campaigned on biofuels during the recent IF campaign—I do the job, we have to look at it again. am sure the hon. Gentleman often wore the wristband We need critical mass if LPG is to be the force it and took part in photo opportunities, and he possibly might be. Members can probably recall a time when responded to constituents in support of that campaign. diesels lacked critical mass. They were associated, A key part of it was to call on countries to act on particularly in the passenger car market, with clouds of biofuels and, in particular, to seize the opportunity to black smoke, noisy, rattling engines and slow acceleration. act in the EU. The tipping point came when one neighbour could look When the Committee took evidence, however, it was at the shiny car in the other’s drive, discuss it with them disappointing that the Under-Secretary of State for and find that the car, which did not appear to be International Development said that biofuels were not belching black smoke or rattling, was actually a diesel. an issue the Government were engaging in at the G8 level. As a result, diesels took off to a great extent in this The issue needs to be pushed up the agenda, because country. The same can happen with LPG, but we still the current situation is a shame. At one evidence session, have some way to go. however, we had encouraging evidence from the then In 2005, all the political parties talked about Mondeo Under-Secretary of State for Transport, the hon. Member man. I actually live next door to him, in so far as my for Lewes (Norman Baker). He expressed his enthusiasm neighbour has boughtaPregistration LPG Mondeo for algae-based biofuels. Some people might say, “Get a estate on eBay for a modest price. He swears by its life”, but I thought it was very encouraging. reliability and economy, and he gets a huge mileage. He The hon. Member for Southport also talked about has found a rare pearl and an unusual buy, because using waste cooking oil; we have until 2020 to meet our there are not many cars like that. EU targets for biofuels use, and I urge the Government For many people, it would be desirable to have a to invest more and to consider more alternative sources vehicle that is reliable, economical to run and of biofuels that do not use food-based products. It is environmentally less bad than a diesel, but that simply not only a question of using food; land and water are will not happen until two things come about. First, the also used, and in developing countries those are scarce Department for Transport needs to listen a bit harder to and vital resources. 211WH Greener Road Transport Fuels15 OCTOBER 2013 Greener Road Transport Fuels 212WH

[Fiona O’Donnell] An important point about electric cars is where the electricity comes from. Just last week a car went all the I have come here with not just two reasons for speaking, way across Australia entirely on solar power. Unfortunately, but millions. There are millions of people in developing we do not have the weather here to see that as a countries whose lives are put at risk by the rush for land long-term solution, but at least it proved that it is on which to grow biofuels. Unfortunately, in developing technically possible. The journey was 2,000 miles in six countries where the law about registration and ownership days, so that was pretty good mileage. Electricity is of land is not too strict, it is all too easy for land to be clearly an option for greener fuel. grabbed and used for biofuels production. There are gas possibilities, of which hydrogen is the The Select Committee report found that there was an most obvious. The subject is bedevilled by different increased risk of hunger, and that between 25 million views of science, statements from NGOs and so on. In and 135 million more people might suffer hunger, in an intervention, hydrogen was linked to crops, but the Africa alone, as a result of the world’s efforts to produce biggest source of hydrogen in my constituency is the more biofuels. There is also a worrying link between ethylene cracker. Plastics are made by extracting hydrogen food prices and energy prices. We know all too well in from gases, essentially, and there is a hydrogen surplus this country how volatile energy prices are, and anything in Teesside, which comes entirely from the petrochemical that links food and energy prices is a reason for concern. industry—not from crops at all. I should welcome reassurance from the Minister about There are many sources of hydrogen, and the most what the Government are doing at EU level to campaign likely one in future is surplus electricity from renewable on the issue. We need to think about the price rises I electricity generation. It is technically fairly simple to mentioned. There are competing claims, but we found use surplus electricity from wind turbines, for example, in our evidence that prices for oil seed could rise by to generate hydrogen, which could become fuel for 20%, those for vegetable oil by 36% and those for maize vehicles. There are many technical possibilities for hydrogen by 22%. As the hon. Member for Warrington South generation, without necessarily using crops. Hydrogen (David Mowat) mentioned in an intervention, wheat is an incredibly powerful fuel. prices could rise by 13% by 2020. We know what food It is an amazing fact that splitting a water molecule insecurity means in this country, but at least here we into hydrogen and oxygen gives the fuel that sent rockets have enough food—it is just that people do not have the to the moon. It is necessary only to recombine them, money to buy it. In the developing world, there is a and that can send rockets into space; it is the perfect huge threat to food production. fuel because it produces water again as a by-product. I hope that my speech has been short and to the Hydrogen must be on the long list of future fuels for point, and that in addition to dealing with the many that reason, if no other. issues that the hon. Member for Southport raised, the Minister will take the time to talk about food insecurity There are many liquid biofuels, some more controversial in developing countries. There can be no issue more than others. One is used cooking oil, which my hon. Friend important. the Member for Birmingham, Yardley (John Hemming) is keen on. That is clearly a good environmental use for oil that would otherwise be thrown away. However, the 3.22 pm amount of what is called used cooking oil throughout Ian Swales (Redcar) (LD): It is a pleasure to speak in Europe is many times the amount actually used for cooking. the debate. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member Imports of palm and other oils, which the hon. for Southport (John Pugh) on securing it and giving it Member for East Lothian (Fiona O’Donnell) mentioned, an imaginative title, which allows us to range over the are driven partly by the market for so-called used cooking subject with abandon. oil. A great deal of policing of the source of the There is an important distinction between greener material is needed, because there are loopholes and transport fuels and making transport greener, and I many traders who run rings round the industry. Equally, think that my hon. Friend made several points about however, many small-scale collection facilities produce the latter issue. There is no doubt that vehicle manufacturers fuel, and they have a role in the future. and many others, such as fuel manufacturers, have I want to talk now about crop-based biofuels. I must contributed to an enormous reduction in the amount of declare an interest, because Europe’s largest bioethanol fuel used for road transport. The car that I drive gets plant is in my constituency. I challenge the idea that we more than 60 miles to the gallon, which would have can have either food or fuel. We are still paying farmers been unthinkable when I was tinkering with cars in my in this country not to grow things—including 6 million early 20s. We have heard about the possibility of switching tonnes of sugar beet, which is potentially a fuel for a fuels, but although liquefied petroleum gas may reduce bioethanol plant. The idea that the issue is all about fuel use, it is, as its name suggests, a fossil fuel. land does not always stand up to examination. There I want to talk about fuels that I think of as greener are many political, economic and agricultural reasons than fossil fuels. There are three basic sources: liquids, why there are food shortages in the world, and, when gases and electricity. The important thing is to think overall world land use is considered, land is quite far about where they come from, and many contributions down the list. Perhaps that is controversial. today have been about that. As my hon. Friend said, there are many sources of electricity, and some could Mr Goodwill: The hon. Gentleman should be aware well be more polluting than putting petrol in the car. that the current EU set-aside requirement is zero. When For example, electricity may be generated in a coal-fired land is set aside it is usually, currently, because of some power station, then go down a line with the associated environmental arrangement that the farmer has entered line losses, and into a car that is plugged in, but that is into. The amount of set-aside in the UK is dramatically an incredibly inefficient way to fuel a vehicle. less than it was 10 years ago. 213WH Greener Road Transport Fuels15 OCTOBER 2013 Greener Road Transport Fuels 214WH

Ian Swales: I thank the Minister for that response. I invest, they will not invest anymore. Most of the early recognise his special expertise in this area. investors in such technologies have done badly and that I want to talk about the sustainability of the bioethanol is mostly due to Government policy. made in my constituency. It is made from animal-feed For the same reasons, we need to ensure at EU level wheat, not human-grade wheat, and at the other end we that targets for the proportions of biofuel in diesel and get three products: bioethanol; carbon dioxide, which is petrol are separate. If we allow an overall target and let captured for use in the food and drink industry in a oil companies play games over how much biofuel they separate plant; and crucially, high-grade animal feed. put into each one on any given day, the people who have All the protein in the wheat ends up in high-grade invested heavily in capital plant will have years of feast animal feed, which is highly prized in the agricultural and years of famine, as the oil companies play their industry, to the point that there are times when those at games, and will eventually exit the market. Again, traders the plant tell me that it is an animal feed plant with a will be left to pick up the pieces. bioethanol by-product, rather than a bioethanol plant with an animal feed by-product. Graham Stringer: The hon. Gentleman is making an The high-protein animal feed replaces imports mostly interesting speech and I have learnt a lot from it. Is not from South America, mostly based on soya and mostly the fundamental point of what he is saying that in grown on former rainforest land. Far from being asking the Government to pick one technology over unsustainable, that high-grade animal feed, a by-product another, we are asking them to pick winners? History of the bioethanol business, is in effect replacing the use shows us that the Government are much better at of rainforests in South America. A cradle-to-grave view of picking losers than winners. the sustainability of all greener fuels needs to be taken, Rather than the Government’s picking winners and because there are an awful lot of misconceptions about choosing where to put subsidies, would it not be better how some of the businesses work. for them to switch some of the subsidies currently going into the energy industry—there is a huge debate about Mr Goodwill: My hon. Friend will be aware that the that at the moment—into research, so that we can move by-product from those plants is suitable only as ruminant on to the next generation of renewable technologies, feed. Much of the grain in South America is produced which the market will support? to fuel the chicken and pork industries, which seems to be the big demand in the developing world. Ian Swales: The hon. Gentleman makes a good point. I have told many potential investors in the industry that Ian Swales: I recognise that the Minister has a special we cannot expect the Government to make winners. As expertise, but I know that there is demand in the marketplace at a roulette table, they will put their chips on lots of for the feeds, which form only part of the overall mix. different numbers, but having made policy on, for example, Having enjoyed the product of a ruminant in my cup of the proportion of petrol that should come from bio-sources, tea earlier this afternoon, I know that they have a place they cannot change it when people are putting in hundreds in the final food chain. of millions of pounds. By the way, those biofuels do not get a subsidy; all they need is a market that is understood David Mowat: I am not totally certain that I understood and left to prosper. I agree with his point, but at some the thrust of what was said about rainforests. Was the stage we must not so much pick winners, as set the point being made that it is good to convert rainforest environment for particular sectors of the market to into soya for use in transport? thrive.

Ian Swales: No, absolutely not. My point was that the John Pugh: One place the Government cannot avoid high-grade, high-protein animal feed, which the by-product interacting with the market in, one way or another, is feed replaces, is typically grown in South America, so the taxation regime, and they do so to an enormous the by-product feed reduces the demand for soya-based extent. A lot of the price of petrol is tax. They cannot proteins, mostly from South America. There is a green opt out. chain. The situation is not as simple as people say. The Government have had a policy for putting biofuels Ian Swales: That is a good point. The Government into both diesel and petrol for years. Starting with have a key role, because they are never out of the diesel, they set the targets and people invested large market, due to the environment they set and the rules amounts in chemical plant, but all the early investors they put in place. They are players, whether they like it went bust because the Government kept moving the or not. goal posts—surprise, surprise, the same has happened We need to look constantly at the science behind the with bioethanol. The £300 million that people invested issues and not simply listen to the last non-governmental in the plant in my constituency has largely gone and the organisation we spoke to. Sustainability needs to be plant recently changed hands for a lower price. Why? looked at from cradle to grave, and there is a lot of devil Because the Government have not delivered on the in that detail, such the materials used to make a car renewable transport fuel obligations they said they would battery for an electric car. We need to police systems, when the investment case was originally made. because once we put rules in place, there are usually lots The hon. Member for Southport mentioned an important of people working on the best way to get round them point: we need certainty for green technologies. If we and maximise their take. We need to ensure that we are are asking people to invest large amounts of capital, we not naive about the systems we put in place. We need cannot keep changing our minds. Changing one’s mind big thinking. leads to an industry heavily dependent on imports of One of my concerns is that we need five Ministers to green products. Unless we give investors certainty about respond to the debate: one from the Department for the goal posts and the environment into which they Business, Innovation and Skills; one from the Department 215WH Greener Road Transport Fuels15 OCTOBER 2013 Greener Road Transport Fuels 216WH

[Ian Swales] In the UK, we have ambitious targets to reach 1.7 million electric vehicles by 2020 and to ensure that all vehicles of Energy and Climate Change; one from the Treasury; are ultra-low emission by 2050. Today we are not debating one from the Department for Environment, Food and whether the transport sector needs to change, but what Rural Affairs; and one from the Department for Transport, reforms are needed. I have had the privilege of chairing who I am sure—no pressure—will speak for all the the all-party motor group for several years. It is a others. The issues typically cross those five Departments, position I will have to give up now that I am in my a fact that I know the Government recognise. They have current role. However, I know that great work has been put a high-level team in place, but we need not just pioneered in this country by the Automotive Council, in high-level thinking, but high-level action to ensure we conjunction with organisations such as the Office for get a consistent view, over, for example, the value of Low Emission Vehicles. waste and where it is best used. The hon. Member for Redcar might be right that we Finally, I congratulate the Minister on his new role. I need five Ministers in a debate such as this, although am sure that, having listened to the debate, he is wondering the thought scares me a little, but one of the great things whether he did the right thing in accepting the job. I about OLEV is that it has started to bring together hope he will give us the clarity we all seek. cross-departmental working. We could learn from that in other sectors. The Automotive Council and OLEV have both been important in ensuring that the UK is 3.39 pm doing all that it can to promote innovation, development Richard Burden (Birmingham, Northfield) (Lab): It is and the take-up of low-carbon transport. I am particularly a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Weir. proud of the Automotive Council, which was an initiative When do you want to call the Minister? of the Labour Government. I am pleased that the success achieved by the council has meant that it has Mr Mike Weir (in the Chair): We finish at 4.22, so you been continued by the current Government. can split the time among yourselves. David Mowat: On the point about electric cars, does Richard Burden: I will not go on for the sake of it. the hon. Gentleman accept the point that was made This is the second debate of the day for the new Minister earlier? Given that 70% of our electricity is produced and I in Westminster Hall, so we are starting as we from fossil fuels—most of that from coal—electric cars mean to go on. I congratulate the hon. Member for are actually less carbon-friendly than petroleum cars at Southport (John Pugh) on securing the debate. We have the moment, and will be for some considerable time. heard important contributions from my hon. Friend the Member for East Lothian (Fiona O’Donnell) and the Richard Burden: The point that we cannot simply hon. Member for Redcar (Ian Swales) and we have had measure emissions and the impact on the environment important interventions from the hon. Member for by looking at what comes out of the tailpipe is absolutely Warrington South (David Mowat) and my hon. Friend right. We do need to look at the whole-life question, the Member for Blackley and Broughton (Graham and that includes questions of energy generation and Stringer). where it comes from and so on. I would not go as far as When he introduced the debate, the hon. Member for the hon. Gentleman and conclude that electric cars are Southport quoted from “The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the less environmentally friendly than petrol cars. It depends Galaxy” on getting from A to B. Given the importance what we are talking about and what the circumstances of what we are talking about and the seriousness of the are. consequences if we do not effectively tackle climate change, I was put in mind of a different quote from that David Mowat: That is true, but in terms of carbon book: production, it is arithmetically inevitable that if we “For instance, on the planet Earth, man had always assumed produce electricity from coal and then use that electricity that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved to make a car go, with the losses that take place in each so much—the wheel, New York, wars and so on—whilst all the of those stages, we will use more carbon. I am not dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a saying there are not other benefits, but the carbon is good time. But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that worse. they were far more intelligent than man—for precisely the same reasons.” Richard Burden: There are all sorts of issues. The On the challenge of climate change, that makes a very hon. Gentleman makes an assumption that the electricity good point. is generated from coal. It is clearly the case that coal is Cutting emissions and tackling greenhouse gases is an important part of the energy mix, but it is not the not simply a question of tackling the transport end of only one. The debate is about how we achieve the right the equation, but transport is obviously central to the kind of balance to ensure that, as far as our road issue. We are talking about transport still accounting transport is concerned, it contributes as best it can to for more than a fifth of the UK’s CO2 emissions, with combating carbon emissions; and not only carbon 97% of that coming from cars alone. That is why the emissions, but some of the other emissions that the hon. European Council of Ministers debate on achieving Member for Southport talked about. the EU target of 40% was important. I understand that the time scale has now slipped. Originally, the proposal David Mowat: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? was for 2020, and, as a result of the latest decision, it is now 2024. I understand the UK voted for that longer Richard Burden: I will let the hon. Gentleman time scale. Can the Minister confirm whether that is the intervene one more time. I do not want this to become a case when he sums up the debate? dialogue. 217WH Greener Road Transport Fuels15 OCTOBER 2013 Greener Road Transport Fuels 218WH

David Mowat: I will make one final point. Of course points he made, but different biofuels have different it depends on where the electricity comes from, and impacts, and it is important for Government policy that sometime soon we might have more carbon-free nuclear such distinctions are made. at a scale that will enable electric cars to be carbon-friendly. The hon. Member for Southport rightly stated that However, at the moment, 75% of our electricity—this is we need to look at the issues of liquefied petroleum gas broadly true of the rest of Europe as well—comes from and compressed natural gas. I will not repeat what he fossil fuels. Until that changes, electric cars are a net said, other than to make two points. First, I recognise worsener of the use of carbon. I will leave it at that. that LPG and CNG still need to be part of the mix, and will stay part of the mix for some considerable time, so Richard Burden: This is perhaps to be continued the questions he asked deserve answers from the Minister. another time. I will simply repeat that, in fairness, the Secondly, to repeat what my hon. Friend the Member equation is not as simple as that. However, it is the case for Blackley and Broughton said, although decisions that we need to green our road transport in this country. have to be made on fiscal incentives or disincentives for As we do that and talk about the options, it is important particular fuels, we must be careful to respond to the that we all live in the real world, ensuring that the important point made by the Automotive Council and policies we adopt, whatever they might be, do not everybody else, which is not to try to pick winners, but worsen the cost of living crisis that is hitting so many to try to be technology-neutral in principle and to see people at the moment. My constituents know that the what works. I hope that the Minister will answer the Government might be patting themselves on the back in important questions asked by the hon. Member for relation to fuel duty. The fact that VAT went up to Southport. 20% in 2011 has also been part of the mix as far as their cost of living is concerned, because that created a The promotion of low-carbon transport goes much long-lasting impact on them as well. However, I do not further than such questions; it is also about the development want to dwell on that. of low-carbon technologies to provide a context for the use of different fuels, and how the progress already I want to ask the Minister to cover a few points in being made on petrol and diesel engines—they will relation to alternative fuels and the action that is needed remain part of our car and commercial vehicle fleet for to promote lower emissions in different parts; issues to a long time yet—can be sustained. That is why I welcome do with the recharging network; and other ways that the the work of the Office for Low Emission Vehicles, and Government could promote behaviour change to cut its document, “Driving the Future Today: A strategy transport emissions and protect the planet. for ultra low emission vehicles in the UK”. I want the First, I want to address biofuels. The hon. Member Minister to set out the Government’s thinking on some for Southport raised important concerns. Indeed, my of the issues raised by that report. hon. Friend the Member for East Lothian talked about On the demand side—assuming that electric vehicles the important work of the International Development will be an important part of the mix for the future—a Committee on this subject. I know it is important work. recent Institute for Public Policy Research report showed Not only was I chairing the all-party motor group until that demand for those vehicles in the UK has recently recently, but I was also a member of the International fallen behind most other European countries and the Development Committee as well. Important evidence United States, despite the innovation and leadership was given to the Committee on the impact of agriculturally shown by the UK automotive industry. When Labour produced biofuels and the impact that they have on was in power, we took the important step of providing food prices and food security. That is why I am pleased grant incentives for purchasers of low-emission vehicles, that, as far as the European Union is concerned, there and I am pleased that this Government remain committed has been a recent vote to cut the number of food crops to that. However, the first bullet point in OLEV’s vision used to produce biofuels. However—perhaps the Minister in its document is the need to develop a can confirm whether I am right—we are now not talking about a 5% limit, but a 6% limit. The target was watered “buoyant domestic fleet and private markets for ULEVs”— down. Sadly, the Conservative members of the European ultra-low emission vehicles—which means demonstrating Parliament contributed to that watering down. their economic benefits by tackling high up-front costs Will the Minister confirm whether I am right about and dispelling misconceptions about their performance. the 5% or 6% target and the change there? What is the Are the Government committed to the continuation Government’s view? Wouldthey have preferred a 5% target? of plug-in car grants, and does the Minister accept that Without wanting him to jump across too many the Government could do more by leading by example? departmental areas, what does the Minister think of the They could use their procurement processes more recommendation mentioned by my hon. Friend the imaginatively to ensure that the switch to ULEVs spreads Member for East Lothian, who sits on the International across the public sector, and they could consider how to Development Committee, that the UK revise its domestic maintain and provide aftercare for those vehicles to renewable transport fuel obligation to exclude agriculturally help promote local jobs and local industries, as well as produced biofuels completely? the development of local skills. In a way, the Government If the Government still want to be the greenest one car fleet could both buy British and support the ULEV ever, as I understand they are still saying, it is important agenda. that they set out their position on biofuels as regards On infrastructure, the Government have now departed not only how they affect food crops, which we have from what they originally said about having a national already discussed, but how in practice we can distinguish recharging network for electric vehicles, and instead between different kinds of biofuels in relation to both favour what they describe as home and workplace their sourcing and how they are produced. I would not recharging. However, OLEV has stated that that means go as far as the hon. Member for Redcar on some of the supporting a network of charge points in homes, residential 219WH Greener Road Transport Fuels15 OCTOBER 2013 Greener Road Transport Fuels 220WH

[Richard Burden] Finally, in considering greener fuels, it is important to remember that while H2 powers hydrogen vehicles, streets, railway stations and public sector car parks, O2 powers human vehicles. I therefore hope that the which sounds a bit like a recharging network to me. Minister will set out some of the practical actions that OLEV has said that £37 million is available to help to he and the Government intend to achieve to ensure that roll out the infrastructure until 2015, which I welcome, another part of the ultra-low carbon mix of transport but what does the Minister expect the £37 million to in this country involves measures to encourage cycling achieve, and how far short will it fall of what OLEV and walking as part of that agenda. thinks is needed? OLEV has emphasised the importance of the energy 3.59 pm companies in delivering a step change towards having ULEVs, from providing a smarter electricity grid supported The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport by new tariff structures through to using plug-in vehicles (Mr Robert Goodwill): I am pleased, Mr Weir, to be here themselves as distributed energy stores that might even today. I congratulate the hon. Member for Southport feed electricity back to the grid at peak times. Do the (John Pugh) on securing this debate. He touches on a Government have any plans to achieve such innovative key issue for my new Department, which is how we can ideas in practice? Does not such a point suggest the build a low-carbon transport system for the 21st century. need for a much more proactive regulatory framework Let me briefly mention my own interest in this, which for the energy companies? was alluded to by the hon. Member for Redcar (Ian Swales). As a farmer, I produce wheat. Indeed two loads I certainly welcome the UK H2 Mobility project to stimulate the take-up of hydrogen-powered vehicles, of it went to the Hull plant last year to produce bioethanol. which are a bit closer to reality than the hon. Member I must admit to feeling guilty when I saw perfectly good for Southport said. We still need to know the level of wheat, which could be used for animal feed or biscuits, infrastructure that the Government think will be required going to produce ethanol, so I was reassured to hear for the scale shift of cars to hydrogen fuel cells, the time from the hon. Gentleman that the residue is not wasted scales that are envisaged and the mechanism that will be but used as a ruminant feed. put in place to achieve what the Government want. Although I am new to this role, I am not new to In relation to automotive capability, the OLEV strategy the issue or the subjects raised in today’s debate. Way rightly underlines the importance of the Automotive back in 2008, I was fortunate to be called by Council’s work, which I have already mentioned. Such Mr Speaker to ask a question of the then Prime developments as the recent announcement of an advanced Minister, the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and propulsion centre are certainly welcome, as is the Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown), who I understand is still a competition launched with a £10 million prize for the Member of this House, about the impact of biofuels on development of long-life battery production. food production. My interest in the issue remains to this day. The question I asked went something like this: is it There are still questions, however, about whether UK better to put ethanol in a Range Rover’s tank or food in companies, particularly small and medium-sized enterprises, an African child’s stomach? I must say I did get quite a will benefit from the shift to ULEVs through the promotion good answer from the then Prime Minister. Before that, of jobs and employment in the UK. Research for the I was a Member of the European Parliament and Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders by KPMG served on the environment committee as a deputy recently underlined the barriers faced by companies co-ordinator for the European People’s Party group that have the flair, but too seldom the opportunity, to and was involved in much of the European legislation development their ideas and bring them to market. All that we are using now to clean up our vehicle fleet and too often, there are still difficulties in accessing affordable the atmosphere. finance. The report estimated that UK companies are not securing about £3 billion-worth of opportunities Many hon. Members will have seen the recent UN for the automotive supply chain in the UK. report on the latest science of climate change, which clearly reveals the costs of failing to address the dangers The Minister knows that the industry, in the form of of climate change. The Government are committed to the Automotive Council, is demanding more assertive building a low-carbon energy system that avoids such Government action, so what will he do to press his risks, and transport must play its part in the challenge. Treasury colleagues to respond more effectively? As the skills agenda is also important to achieving our objectives, Transport accounts for around a quarter of UK what discussions does he intend to have with the Secretary carbon emissions, and the share is rising. It is essential of State for Education to bring an end to the rather that we act now to reduce the impact of transport on toffee-nosed valuing of traditional academic achievement our environment. Last month, the Government published over vocational achievement in this country? their strategy for electric vehicles, which is a key element The shift towards ULEVs is not only an environmental of our plan for a low-carbon transport system. The necessity for the future of our planet. In “Driving the Government’s vision is that by 2050 almost every car in Future Today”, OLEV has stated that the transition to the UK will be an ultra-low emission vehicle. As well as such vehicles cutting carbon, electric cars have the potential to reduce our reliance on foreign energy imports and to clean up “represents a once in a lifetime industrial opportunity for the UK the air in our towns and cities. automotive sector if it successfully positions itself in the vanguard of this new technology—delivering jobs and growth for decades The Government are determined to seize this opportunity, to come.” and to place the UK at the forefront of the design, That is why the industry and consumers look to the development and manufacture of ultra-low emission Government to match their words with actions on such vehicles, and I am sure that we will work with the issues. Automotive Council to do just that. 221WH Greener Road Transport Fuels15 OCTOBER 2013 Greener Road Transport Fuels 222WH

Ian Swales: Does the Minister feel that his colleagues waste. Such changes have led to encouraging trends in in the Department of Energy and Climate Change, who the fuels supplied under the RTFO. The average carbon are worried about the lights going out this winter, are savings of biofuel supplied under the RTFO when factoring into their work on future power generation compared with fossil fuel have increased from 46% in the electrical demand that he is talking about? 2008 to around 68% in the latest statistics. One example of the feedstocks behind this trend is Mr Goodwill: Yes, I am sure they are. I am concerned used cooking oil. The hon. Member for Southport may that one means of addressing the range anxiety problem be aware of the Olleco biodiesel plant in Bootle, which is to have fast-charge cars. Electric cars work well when is the country’s largest purpose-built plant dedicated to they are charged overnight with renewable energy or producing biodiesel from used cooking oil, and is not nuclear energy, but once we start fast-charging cars at too far from his Merseyside constituency. filling stations, we will have a major problem not only with generation capacity but with the grid’s ability to David Mowat: The Minister makes the point about carry that amount of electricity. how these things are alternatives to fossil fuels, but does However, not all modes of transport can be easily he accept that not all fossil fuels have the same amount electrified. Aviation and heavy goods vehicles are likely of carbon? If we were to replace petrol with gas or to continue to require liquid fuels for decades to come. liquefied natural gas cars, as opposed to liquefied petroleum It is therefore essential that we develop the technologies gas cars—there are 15 million LNG cars in the world to produce low-carbon liquid fuels. and 3 million in Pakistan—we would halve the amount of carbon being produced from the transport sector. Biofuels are renewable transport fuels created from That technology exists already. I repeat the point that I organic matter and offer one way of creating low-carbon made to the shadow Minister that electric cars are not a fuels. However, biofuels—and bioenergy more generally— panacea for as long as we continue to produce the also present complex challenges. Last year, the Government electricity from fossil fuels, particularly coal. published a strategy for bioenergy, which recognised its important role in allowing the UK to meet its climate Mr Goodwill: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. change objectives. It concluded that by using bioenergy, Methane, or biogas, is CH4, so for every molecule of we could cut the costs of decarbonising the UK by carbon dioxide produced there are four molecules of £44 billion. water, so it is a big improvement over fossil fuels such as LPG. Fiona O’Donnell: I thank the Minister for giving way and take the opportunity to welcome him to his new John Pugh: I was not aware of the cooking oil role. Does he agree with his predecessor, the Minister of development plant in Bootle, but I was once the leader State, Home Department, the hon. Member for Lewes of Sefton council, which covered Bootle. The major (Norman Baker), who has perhaps gone to a better environmental issue that we had was the strange smell place now, that some forms of biofuels are worse for the that used to permeate households in the area, and that environment than fossil fuels? was regarded in those days as an environmental hazard. This environment is a complicated thing to deal with. Mr Goodwill: I have seen analysis of some of the bioethanol produced in the United States which indicates Mr Goodwill: Indeed. We have a big chip factory in that that is the case. I will comment on the particular my constituency, which occasionally has the same effect. impact on fuels as I make progress in my speech. Used cooking oil offers carbon savings of around 80% compared with those produced by fossil fuel, and The Government published a strategy on bioenergy, the latest data suggest that last year around a third of which concluded that by using bioenergy we could cut biofuels supplied in the UK came from used cooking the cost of decarbonising the UK by £44 billion. Other oil. We are very much on the case of ensuring that used reports have estimated that the biomass industry could cooking oil is indeed used cooking oil, and the Department provide 50,000 jobs. There are clear opportunities for is currently monitoring the situation closely because of the UK in the global race for growth driven by science the allegations that have been flying around. Certainly, and innovation, and it is an industry that we need to the UK should not be criticised in that regard. develop. However, the strategy also made it clear that bioenergy had its risks. If it is not managed properly, There is still more to do to ensure the sustainability of bioenergy can actually increase greenhouse gas emissions biofuels. In particular, we are concerned about the and put at risk key objectives such as food security. It is impact of indirect land use change. Studies have therefore essential that we proceed with care and develop demonstrated that, due to ILUC, some otherwise systems that use bioenergy only where it is genuinely sustainably produced biofuels can end up causing greater sustainable. carbon emissions than fossil fuels. We have already taken important steps on the path to Fiona O’Donnell: The Minister is being very generous genuinely sustainable biofuels. In 2008, the Renewable in giving way again. Does he not agree that that perhaps Transport Fuels Obligation was established. For the is what the hon. Member for Redcar (Ian Swales) first time, biofuel was required to be blended into road missed in his contribution—while the products that transport fuel. In 2011, the UK introduced mandatory may be used in his constituency are not fit for human sustainability criteria to the RTFO. Those changes meant consumption, they still use up valuable resources of that biofuels could no longer be sourced from areas of land and water? high biodiversity, such as rainforests or wetlands. In 2011, we also saw the introduction of double rewards Mr Goodwill: The issue of displacement—the ILUC for advanced biofuels, also referred to in this debate as situation—is one that we are well aware of. It tends second generation biofuels, and biofuels made from to be more of a problem with biodiesel than with 223WH Greener Road Transport Fuels15 OCTOBER 2013 Greener Road Transport Fuels 224WH

[Mr Goodwill] is well understood. Indeed, I visited a BMW car plant in the United States, which was powered by biofuel from a bioethanol, but it is an issue that we need to address nearby waste dump. through negotiations and agreements at the European level. Ian Swales: May I ask the Minister a question about The European targets that the UK has agreed to are a detail in his speech? He mentioned “other transport legally binding. Therefore, the UK needs to work within sectors”. It is already technically possible for biokerosene the European framework to produce a biofuel policy to fuel aircraft. Some aircraft have flown—including, I that reduces the environmental and social impacts of believe, a Virgin aircraft—powered purely by biokerosene. biofuels. As part of this process, it is imperative that Will the Government do anything about aircraft fuels? ILUC is properly addressed at European level. Negotiations Mr Goodwill: I will not digress too far into the area of are ongoing in Europe, and we are pressing for an aircraft but we certainly need to ensure that the quality of ambitious outcome to the ILUC situation. The 5% figure aircraft fuels is consistent, and currently we do not put is certainly the figure that we are negotiating towards. biofuel into aviation kerosene for safety reasons. However, As we have heard in the debate, there are also concerns more research could lead to some progress in that area. about the impact of biofuels on food prices. Food Biomethane represents a particularly compelling versus fuel is an issue that I take very seriously. The opportunity for heavy goods vehicles, which have few primary goal of agriculture should remain food production, other options for decarbonisation. Biomethane currently and the production of biomass must not undermine represents less than 1% of renewable transport fuel, so food security or increase food prices. It is accepted that there is clear potential to expand its contribution to increased demand for biofuel has played a role, but reducing emissions in the UK. However, biomethane Government analysis has shown that although increased cannot be used in transport without the vehicles that global crop prices have resulted from biofuel production are able to use it, and there are currently fewer than there has only been a modest rise in food prices. 1,000 natural gas vehicles in the UK. The Government I must point out at this stage that there is only are supporting the early uptake of gas-fuelled vehicles 10p worth of wheat in a loaf of bread anyway, so there through the low-carbon truck demonstration trial. This are many other factors that come—oh dear, I have £11 million project to trial low-carbon trucks and supporting mentioned that I am a farmer again. However, I recognise infrastructure will support almost 350 natural gas trucks. the seriousness of even a small impact on food prices, as well as the potential for biofuel support policies to I am aware of industry concerns about the adequacy increase crop price volatility. Nevertheless, I am confident of incentives for the use of biomethane in transport, that our position on the ILUC negotiations, if it is particularly when compared with other Government successful in limiting crop-based biofuels and incentivising support schemes for the use of biomethane in electricity those produced from wastes and residues, should reduce and heat. These issues will be considered as part of our the direct competition for food feedstocks. forthcoming call for evidence, and we will then be in a position to propose the changes that we think will be I will turn now to advanced fuels. Resolving the issue needed to the RTFO in order to strike the best balance of ILUC remains the main barrier to setting out the of incentives. With luck, we will then be able to introduce clear pathway to achieving our 2020 targets, which I those incentives alongside agreed European proposals know industry and investors need. However, in the to address ILUC. meantime we can set out some markers for the longer-term path to more sustainable biofuels. That is likely to be I turn now to some of the points made in the debate. I achieved through the use of non-land-using feedstocks, again welcome the shadow Minister, the hon. Member such as agricultural residues and municipal waste. However, for Birmingham, Northfield (Richard Burden), to his use of these feedstocks requires advanced conversion role. In many ways, we are on the same page. The processes that have not yet been commercialised. These renewable energy directive targets are still in place for processes are an exciting technology, which can turn 2020; under those targets, 10% of transport energy will unwanted waste products into valuable transport fuel. be renewable. I am sure that he will be pleased to know A number of countries have already established production that those targets have not changed as a result of our facilities for these advanced biofuels, although there are recent negotiations. none as yet in the UK. However, with the UK’s world-class The hon. Member for Southport raised the issue of research capabilities we have the potential to become a liquefied natural gas, which is the same as methane or global player in this sector. biogas. As a transport fuel, natural gas has lower carbon That is why earlier this year the Government announced emissions than diesel; it produces about 15% lower a £25 million competition for an advanced biofuel emissions. Natural gas also diversifies our fuel supply, demonstration contest, which aims to deliver up to increasing energy security, and it can improve local air three demonstration-scale advanced biofuel plants in quality. In addition, natural gas benefits from a lower the UK. Later this year, we will also be announcing a duty rate than diesel. I should point out that matters call for evidence on advanced fuels. We will invite regarding duty rates should be addressed to the Chancellor industry’s views on what more the Government should of the Exchequer. be doing to develop these essential technologies, which Liquefied petroleum gas vehicles have some will be needed long into the future to allow us to reduce environmental benefits. On a lifecycle basis, LPG vehicles the carbon footprint of road travel and, increasingly, produce about 14% less carbon dioxide than petrol other transport sectors. vehicles do. However, LPG is not as good as diesel. However, not all non-land-using biofuels rely on LPG cars deliver similar air quality emissions to petrol advanced technologies. For example, biomethane made cars, and better air quality emissions than diesel, although from waste demonstrates some of the highest carbon the gap has narrowed with the introduction of Euro 5 savings of any biofuel, and the technology for its production and Euro 6 cars. 225WH Greener Road Transport Fuels 15 OCTOBER 2013 226WH

The hon. Member for East Lothian (Fiona O’Donnell) Sentencing Tariffs (Offences Against asked about the 5% food crop cap. I hope that I have Animals) reassured her that we are sticking with that, and we have certainly made it clear to the European Commission, the European Parliament and all other member states 4.19 pm in the Council of the European Union that the UK supports the 5% cap. Mr Adrian Sanders (Torbay) (LD): It is a pleasure to speak under your chairmanship for the first time, Mr Weir. Fiona O’Donnell: Can I press the Minister further I am delighted to see the new Minister here. It is and ask what discussions he has had with the German wonderful that a fellow west country Member of Parliament Government, who would be key to gaining support for —the real west country: Devon and Cornwall—is in a the 5% cap? ministerial position. Mr Goodwill: I met my German opposite number in Animal baiting and fighting legislation was first Luxembourg last Thursday. Although the discussion introduced in the United Kingdom in 1835. Yet more did not veer into that area, I am sure that we will have a than 175 years later, these most barbaric and cruel good working relationship with the Germans. Of course, activities remain alarmingly prevalent. Despite dozens the Germans are currently in the process of forming a of individuals being prosecuted every year, acts of animal new Government, so I look forward to hopefully meeting cruelty continue to a horrific extent. Additionally, the my new colleague, or perhaps his replacement if there practice is associated with other criminality, such as are changes to the Government. The hon. Lady is drug dealing and firearms sales. absolutely right—Germany is key to almost everything We in England and the United Kingdom cherish our in Europe, and we certainly have a very good working pets. The fact that dogfighting still occurs today would relationship with our colleagues from the German Federal astonish most people. A lot of people describe dog and Republic. cockfighting as sports, but there is nothing sporting in Regarding electric vehicles, the point was made that watching two dogs being made to tear each other apart. the market for them is very much a niche one. We are Sadly, examples of such barbaric animal cruelty are still happy with the take-up of ultra-low emission vehicles. too numerous in our society. It is astonishing that We are working across Government with the industry people still cause untold suffering to animals in this and we have introduced a range of ambitious measures way. There have been all too many examples of the to make the UK a premier global market for these practice over the past few years. vehicles. Last year, in Derbyshire, a mutilated puppy was My hon. Friend the Member for Warrington South found by rescuers from the Royal Society for the Prevention (David Mowat) made a point about the energy mix in of Cruelty to Animals. The dog, a west highland terrier terms of electricity generation. It is the case that electric cross, was found in a filthy, mangled state, abandoned in cars—ultra-low emission vehicles—already produce lower a box dumped in a country lane. Half of both his ears emissions than conventional vehicles, and as the grid had been cut off and he was riddled with fleas. Cutting decarbonises their environmental performance will improve ears off is apparently a standard procedure for dogfighting, further. I am keen to see more renewable energy being as they can be bitten by other dogs during a fight. To produced, not least off the coast of my constituency. make dogs last longer in the pit, the ears are cut off by Also, as a keen fan of nuclear power, I know that we can the gangs beforehand. It can also be done to make the use the electricity that nuclear power produces at night-time dog look more aggressive. It would have been excruciating to trickle charge electric vehicles. for this terrier, done by an unprofessional person with I was asked whether the Government are committed no anaesthetic. The dog was still terrified when found to plug-in car grants. We have announced £500 million by its rescuers; he flinched whenever vets went near his of support for the period from 2015 to 2021, and ears, so he obviously associates them with pain. shortly we will launch a call for evidence to inform how The RSPCA said that the terrier was probably an we will achieve the best value for that investment. abandoned or unwanted pet and added that many such The issue of hydrogen was raised. The Government pets end up in dogfighting pits. Often, families struggling launched the UK H2 Mobility project in 2012, which to make ends meet can no longer cope with paying for was a joint undertaking with industry. The project will pets, which oftentimes are left on the streets. There has evaluate the potential for hydrogen as a fuel, developing been an increase in strays. The RSPCA warned that an action plan for a roll-out to consumers from next these pets can be picked up by dogfighting gangs. year if the evaluation is successful. One such gang was broken up in Oxfordshire in 2011, I think that I have responded to most of the points when a father and son admitted to training dogs for that were made in the debate. If I have missed some organised fights. They were jailed and banned from points, I apologise and I will certainly write to respond keeping dogs, following a major RSPCA investigation. to them, as time is pressing now. The father admitted using equipment such as treadmills, To conclude, I thank everyone who has contributed weighted collars and rudimentary veterinary equipment to this debate for taking the time to consider this to train the dogs. RSPCA inspectors discovered an important issue. The use of biofuels and non-conventional emaciated bull terrier, as well as shocking footage of fuels is, and will remain, complex and controversial. dogfighting, when they searched his home. However, that must not stop us from finding the right balance between producing the fuels we need for a In March last year, another gang was broken up, low-carbon future and protecting the livelihoods of the following another covert operation by the RSPCA. It most vulnerable, both here and in the developing world. was found goading animals into fighting, as well as training dogs. Those convicted received 20-week custodial sentences. 227WH Sentencing Tariffs (Offences Against 15 OCTOBER 2013 Sentencing Tariffs (Offences Against 228WH Animals) Animals) [Mr Adrian Sanders] I suggest that penalties be doubled, allowing for custodial sentences of up to two years for particularly It is welcome that these people are being brought to egregious cases of animal cruelty. That would send out justice. The sentences they receive send a clear message a powerful signal to those engaged, or considering to others involved in dogfighting or thinking of taking becoming engaged, in this brutal competition. It would part. Sadly, these individuals are not the first people to give judges the necessary leeway to impose sentences be sent away for the brutal practice and they will not be they felt were appropriate to the crimes involved and the last. Furthermore, dogfighting is the tip of the ensure that people such as those I have mentioned faced iceberg when it comes to ongoing animal cruelty. the full force of the law and paid for their criminal brutality. In a cockfight, two roosters fight each other to the We are at something of a disadvantage in that the death, watched by people placing bets on the victor. If provisions for tougher sentences in the 2006 Act were the birds survive, the organisers let them suffer untreated never enacted. Will the Minister explain why? The most injuries or throw them away. They lie dead or dying in someone is likely to get, even for serious cases of animal heaps. Left to themselves, roosters almost never hurt cruelty, is a six-month sentence; in reality, they will each other badly. However, in cockfights the birds often probably only serve eight weeks. wear razor-sharp blades on their legs and get injuries Finally, I pay tribute to the tireless efforts of the such as punctured lungs, broken bones and pierced RSPCA. Every year, it rescues and collects almost eyes, even when they survive. 120,000 animals. It finds new homes for about 60,000 of Last October, a father and son were convicted of them. Another 60,000 animals are microchipped, helping taking part in such a sick competition. RSPCA inspectors them to stay safe. Ever since it was founded in 1824, the raided their homes and found evidence that they were at RSPCA has been a voice for animals throughout Britain. the heart of a global network of cockfighting. Together, Despite facing countless difficulties in this time, it has they owned 484 birds bred for fighting, including 97 mature always stayed true to its central charitable mission—namely, fighting cocks, and a cock-fighting pit. There were “by all lawful means, prevent cruelty, promote kindness to and magazines and photographs, too, as well as evidence alleviate suffering of all animals”. that the pair had travelled as far as South America to watch cockfights. It is a charity that cares for all our animals, whether pets or companions, on farms or in laboratories. The RSPCA called the scene a “cockfighting factory”. It found more than 60 pairs of spurs, which are attached Last year, the RSPCA secured more than 3,000 to birds’ feet to increase the damage inflicted, together convictions by private prosecution. Its internal investigations with leg muffs, leg bands, beak muzzles and other unit looked into more than 160,000 complaints of alleged blood-splattered veterinary items. Indeed, the pair were cruelty. It is especially worthwhile to highlight the work internationally renowned for their brutal practice. The of the RSPCA at a time when donations are falling. The father had featured on the front cover of an Asian proportion of people giving to charity fell from 58% to cockfighting magazine. They exported the birds for 55% in 2011, according to the Charities Aid Foundation, fighting to Brazil, the Philippines and France, among and it is expected to have fallen again in 2012. As we all other countries. Their birds had been fed with steroids struggle with austerity, so do charities. to increase strength and stamina. Both men were given It is vital that we continue to support the work of suspended sentences, large fines and community service, charities such as the RSPCA, and any other animal thanks to the RSPCA’s efforts. The question is, is that welfare organisation, at this time. All the while, their enough? workers and volunteers continue their efforts to ensure I highlight those cases to bring home the fact that that vulnerable pets and animals receive the care they animal cruelty in its most brutal form continues to deserve. The examples of dog and cockfighting that I plague our society and occurs even in this country. The have raised today are proof that their work is much most recent legislation on animal welfare is the Animal needed. Welfare Act 2006. It was a welcome updating of the law Animal cruelty in its worst form continues to take on animals’ well-being, much of which was almost place in Britain. If we really cherish our pets in Britain, 100 years old. It simplified the legislation for enforcers we should have an appropriate legislative framework to and animal keepers by consolidating more than 20 pieces protect their well-being. We must give judges the power of legislation into one and eliminated many loopholes to punish the most egregious acts of animal brutality, in the system. and the measures I propose would do just that. The The 2006 Act also ensured that people who organise Government need to conduct a thorough review of animal fights, train animals for fights or publicise or sentences for issues beyond— record a fight, face the full force of the law. It sought to strengthen deterrence for persistent offenders by increasing 4.30 pm penalties. For example, those causing unnecessary suffering to an animal could face up to 51 weeks in prison, a fine Sitting suspended for a Division in the House. of up to £20,000, or both. Despite that welcome legislation, the reports I mentioned 4.39 pm show that more must be done to deter gangs who are On resuming— organising these brutal blood sports. An already stretched RSPCA can only do so much to find the gangs carrying Mr Sanders: As I was saying before the rug was out these acts. It only has so many resources to pursue pulled out from under my peroration, we must give them through the courts. This is why we need to send a judges the power to punish the most egregious acts of strong signal to individuals who may be, in any way, animal brutality. The measures that I have mentioned involved in the organisation of any sort of animal will, I hope, do just that. The Government need to fighting, wrestling or baiting. conduct a thorough review of sentences for issues beyond 229WH Sentencing Tariffs (Offences Against 15 OCTOBER 2013 Sentencing Tariffs (Offences Against 230WH Animals) Animals) just dog control. We should have the data, so that we a number of different pieces of legislation into a can see how effective the 2006 Act is and whether more comprehensive whole and placed a duty of care on needs to be done. those who are responsible for animals. The 2006 Act I would be interested to know what objection the also introduced a preventive measure that has allowed Government might have for not undertaking such a action to be taken without animals suffering unnecessarily. review. The Minister’s time to respond is limited, but I Although the consultation highlighted some concerns hope he can meet me and the RSPCA to discuss the that more could be done to speed up court cases involving issues in more detail. An increase in the maximum seized animals, it did not cast doubt on the adequacy of penalties, fines and jail sentences faced by those who are maximum sentences. caught will signal that this country is no place for such Of course, legislation must set maximum penalties. It barbarity. We might finally banish their cruelty from is then for the courts—usually the magistrates court for our society, once and for all. I think that we can all look animal welfare cases—to take a view on what sentence forward to that. should be given. Judges and magistrates have a great deal of discretion in sentencing. In coming to a view, 4.41 pm they are helped by specific sentencing guidelines produced TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof StateforEnvironment, by the Sentencing Council, which has been responsible Food and Rural Affairs (George Eustice): It is a pleasure since 2010 for providing detailed guidance to courts on to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Weir. I congratulate the appropriate sentence for individual cases. my hon. Friend the Member for Torbay (Mr Sanders)—he Sentencing guidelines help to achieve consistency in is a fellow west country MP—on securing the debate deciding the type and length of sentence and set out the and raising an issue that attracts a great deal of interest. factors that should be considered in those decisions. He has always championed it, and I join him in praising The guidelines set out how a judge or magistrate can the RSPCA for how it pursues some of the horrific cases decide on the seriousness of a particular offence, and that he outlined in his introduction. then determine the appropriate sentence. Of course, the I was personally interested in this area before I joined circumstances of different cases can vary quite widely the Government. I served on the Environment, Food and that can explain the different sentences handed out. and Rural Affairs Committee, and earlier this summer, The guidance to magistrates covers cases of animal as part of my research, I read an interesting report cruelty for offences committed under the 2006 Act and called “Unleashed”, which was written by an academic helps magistrates to impose an appropriate penalty. called Simon Harding. It looked at the phenomena of Those guidelines were last updated in 2008 and reflect status and weapon dogs and tried to understand why we the current penalties available. are seeing an increase in some types of dog fights. The Government’s responsibility is to ensure that the courts have the flexibility to impose the appropriate There are three key types of dog fight. First, there are sentence within acceptable ranges. To that end, the those awful dog fights where bets are placed. They often 2006 Act makes it an offence to cause any unnecessary take place in private venues, and that is the type of thing suffering to an animal. That offence carries a maximum that my hon. Friend mentioned. Secondly, there is what penalty of six months’ imprisonment or a fine of £20,000 they call “back of van” fights or trunking, which are or, crucially, both. Someone found guilty of organising awful. The idea came from the US, where they lock dogs or participating in a dog fight, along the lines that my in the boot of a car to fight it out. The third type, which hon. Friend described, could receive both a fine of some of the evidence suggests has had the greatest £20,000 and a prison sentence of six months. Six months increase, is chain rolling, where dogs are used as an is the highest sentence available to a magistrates court alternative to a knife and there are impromptu fights in and the fine is much greater than the usual £5,000 limit. parks. There has been a significant increase in reports to the RSPCA of illegal fights of that sort. In addition, the 2006 Act makes it an offence to fail to provide an animal with its welfare needs. That offence A further problem has been the growth of the internet, can attract a maximum penalty of six months’ which has made some of these crimes easier to commit. imprisonment or a fine of £5,000, or both. The offender That point has been highlighted by a great many of the can also be disqualified from owning an animal in animal welfare charities. We have the awful problem of future. the different terms and code words used in internet advertising for dogs designed to be sold for fighting, Chris Evans (Islwyn) (Lab/Co-op): As I was coming such as red-nosed, game-proven, game-bred and blocky. to work yesterday morning, there was a Staffordshire I welcome what the Pet Advertising Advisory Group bull terrier-type dog dead in the Thames. I hear what has done to try to tighten that up by creating a new code the Minister says, and I commend the Government’s of conduct for those companies that advertise pets. action on increasing fines and sentences, but what action The Government deplore acts of animal cruelty and has specifically been taken to stop the people involved believe that offenders deserve the full force of the courts. from owning those dogs again, legally or illegally, and Our responsibility is to ensure that the legislation is fit what action has been taken to stop these dog fights for purpose. My hon. Friend asked whether we would taking place? review the legislation. We reviewed the main legislation George Eustice: There are a number of measures that protects the welfare of kept animals—the Animal under which we can do that. Under the 2006 Act, which Welfare Act 2006—in 2010. was introduced by the previous Government, people The report prepared by my Department and sent to can be disqualified from owning dogs. Through that the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee Act, Parliament tightened up the earlier legislation. The for its consideration concluded that there was broad courts now have to state why they would not impose agreement that the 2006 Act has genuinely had a positive such a disqualification, rather than it being left entirely impact on animal welfare. It successfully brought together up to them. 231WH Sentencing Tariffs (Offences Against 15 OCTOBER 2013 Sentencing Tariffs (Offences Against 232WH Animals) Animals) Chris Evans: My concern is on the safeguards to of community service and imprisonment. It was not ensure that someone who is banned cannot own a dog simply an increase—a mixture was always intended. again by legal means. What evidence do we have that Alternatively, is an increase intended to act as a someone owns a dog, even if they are banned? How do deterrent? The Government, however, have received no we impose that ban? That is the issue that I was raising. indication from magistrates that the penalties for animal cruelty cases should be increased because they are having George Eustice: Clearly, it is for the courts and the to impose more and more penalties towards the upper police to enforce the bans. Other bits of legislation end of the range. Crucially, for no convictions has a related to dog welfare and, in particular, breeding, judge handed out the maximum sentence of six months. contain anti-avoidance clauses, so that if someone has We therefore have to ask, why increase the maximum, if five litters of dogs being bred on a premises—regardless the existing one is not being used by the courts? of who owns or claims to own those dogs—they are To give an example of the penalties handed down by caught by the law and require a licence. There are magistrates over the past three years, convictions under elements of legislation that do that, and I am here to set the Animal Welfare Act have been roughly 1,000 a year; out what the law states. I commend what the previous typically, about 10% of those have been sentenced to Government did in introducing the 2006 Act. As I said, imprisonment, with the remainder getting a fine. That it requires the courts to state why they would not does not indicate to me that magistrates consider that impose such a disqualification. the maximum penalties for animal cruelty should be increased. I understand the points made by hon. Members I realise that some people would like to see the about increasing maximum sentences, but there does maximum limits raised, but we need to be clear why not seem to be evidence to suggest that a review is such a move is deemed desirable by those calling for necessary, especially given that the issue was reviewed such an increase. Is it because the maximum limits are most recently in 2008. considered to be low compared with other similar offences? My hon. Friend has, however, brought up an important If we make that point, however, we should compare subject for debate, which we all recognise as a growing them with the maximum penalties for other crimes, problem, and the Government have introduced additional such as assaulting a police officer, which can attract six bits of legislation to deal with dangerous dogs, such as months of imprisonment, a fine of £5,000 or both. The community protection notices or criminal behaviour maximum penalty available for acts of antisocial behaviour, orders, which allow the courts to ban people from owning under the new Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing or breeding dogs, or to require dogs to be neutered—a Bill, will be three months, a fine or both. whole suite of other policies applies there. My hon. Friend the Member for Torbay mentioned My hon. Friend asks whether I am willing to meet the Animal Welfare Act provision to increase sentences him and the RSPCA, and of course I am, although the to 51 weeks. I think that he was referring to a scheme area is the responsibility of my noble friend Lord de called “custody plus”, but it is not quite true that that Mauley, so he might well take that meeting on my would relate to a custodial sentence of 51 weeks; in fact, behalf or with me. Nevertheless, I thank my hon. Friend the sentence was always intended to be a combination for an important debate. 233WH 15 OCTOBER 2013 Protecting Older People from Fraud 234WH (Wales) Protecting Older People from Fraud benefits or who are older, help towards reducing their (Wales) energy bills, whether through insulation or whatever. I am in no way criticising such excellent schemes, which are funded by the United Kingdom Government, not 4.52 pm the Welsh Government, although of course they operate Paul Murphy (Torfaen) (Lab): I am glad to be serving in Wales as well as throughout the rest of the United under your Celtic chairmanship, Mr Weir. I am sure Kingdom. that you understand that some of the issues in today’s Such phone-in companies call older people and try to debate are very much relevant to the whole of the persuade them to register for advice and assistance, for United Kingdom. I am also grateful to the Minister, which they are charged. In reality, those who wish to who we look forward to hearing from later. take advantage of the Government schemes can simply A few statistics will show the extent of scams just in go to the authorities, official help lines, citizens advice Wales, and how they affect all of us who represent bureaux or trading standards departments and ask for Welsh constituencies. Between February 2012 and February advice on what they should do. As everyone in the 2013, 2,500 scams were reported, but it is reckoned that Chamber knows, however, people are often caught by a only 5% of scams that occur are reported to the authorities, person calling on the telephone, and they are susceptible so the total number could be as high as 50,000. There and more vulnerable to such activity. were 958 doorstep complaints, with 19 prosecutions, Jessica Morden (Newport East) (Lab): I congratulate and 1,658 post, e-mail and telephone scams, with only my right hon. Friend on securing the debate and on his two prosecutions. Those figures are revealing, not least work with Age Cymru, which I hope will help people in because the majority of the victims of those scams were future. I, too, have seen a huge increase in my constituency probably people, such as myself, over the age of 60. of companies using the green deal to scam older people— Those who are affected by such crooks and gangsters, cowboy practices. Recent cases have now been referred who prey on our old people, are, I fear, vulnerable, to trading standards, but they are clearly the tip of the physically and mentally. On average, older people lose iceberg. Does he agree that this seems to be a particular £1,200 per person when swindled, although they can problem in south Wales, as reported by Which? recently? lose an awful lot more—their dignity, their self-esteem We should investigate that issue more fully. and, tragically and occasionally, their very will to live. Recent examples of scams in Wales include one that Paul Murphy: Indeed. I did not come across that until involved the distinguished correspondent for BBC Wales, constituents came to me with their problems. I shall give David Cornock. His elderly mother was swindled out of three examples—there are many—of this sort of practice. £270,000 by fraudsters, eventually leading to her premature Eco Green Deal Solutions has now shut down, I am death. In addition, a man in my constituency sent delighted to say, after the consumer watchdog programme, money to a non-existent lottery, the so-called European “X-Ray” on BBC Wales found that several customers Lottery Guild, while a woman in Wales sent nearly all who were not eligible were charged up to £249 for her money to a clairvoyant in Switzerland. Those examples arrangement and assessment fees. Another is Cornerstone are only the tip of the iceberg, which is why Age Green Solutions, which took £99 from an elderly and Cymru—a fine organisation—is now campaigning on vulnerable lady in my constituency. I understand that the issue, led by Gerry Keighley, who used to be the another company, Diversity Network Ltd, which is editor of my local evening paper, the South Wales totally independent of the other two, has tried to arrange Argus. They are all doing a great job. a refund. The company that has caused most concern throughout Chris Evans (Islwyn) (Lab/Co-op): The Bryn estate in south Wales, including in my hon. Friend’s constituency, Pontllanfraith in my constituency has been plagued by is Becoming Green. It has caused great distress to some doorstep scammers, rogue traders and their ilk for a constituents who came to see me, and among other number of years. Thanks to the Bryn residents’ association, things, it caused me to raise the matter in Parliament. It a “no cold calling” zone has been introduced, which has is charging older people £299 for what it calls its advice had a huge and beneficial effect. Does my right hon. service, and when it is challenged, my constituents are Friend agree that such schemes require further sight by unable to get their money back. One of its customers— the Government and endorsement throughout the country? interestingly, bearing in mind the earlier debate, he lives in Torquay—recently wrote to a national newspaper, Paul Murphy: Indeed I do, and I shall come on to that whose reporter contacted the company 17 times before matter in one of my recommendations to the Minister. getting beyond an electronic switchboard, which cut My hon. Friend makes an interesting point, however, him off. I also had great trouble getting through to the about the role of neighbours. When someone is aware company, as did my constituents. that an older person or couple, vulnerable as they are, The problem is that admirable schemes have been lives nearby, neighbours, as well as friends and family, undermined by the activities of companies that are have a huge role to play in deterring such terrible things, jumping on the bandwagon simply to make a big profit. as do citizens advice bureaux and our local authorities’ I have contacted trading standards offices. Torfaen has trading standards departments, all of which are aware an excellent trading standards office, which in recent of the issues. weeks has received 62 complaints about such companies, I want to bring to the attention of Members a new 44 of which trade in becoming green, almost wholly sharp practice—that is what I shall call it at this stage— from people over 60. The companies that I mentioned resulting from the so-called green companies exploiting operated in Cardiff, where trading standards have received the Government’s affordable warmth scheme and the many complaints. Both authorities, and probably Newport green deal. Those schemes are, in themselves, good; and Caerphilly, are looking closely into the activities of they seek to give vulnerable people, such as those on those companies and others, and investigating them. 235WH Protecting Older People from Fraud 15 OCTOBER 2013 Protecting Older People from Fraud 236WH (Wales) (Wales) Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab): Does my right hon. of the specific companies and cases he raised, and I Friend agree that in many instances such companies hope to provide some reassurance on how they are come up with ideas that are totally inappropriate for the being investigated and what the UK Government are householders they meet. I know of people living in doing, working with the Welsh Assembly Government terraced houses who use coal to heat their homes but and Welsh local authorities, to make progress. are being told all sorts of nonsense about new gas I confirm that officials in the Department for Business, boilers when they are not on mains gas? Much of the Innovation and Skills are in contact with trading standards scammers’ advice is hot air, and we must ensure that we colleagues in Cardiff and at the National Trading Standards get rid of them. Board about the three companies he mentioned. They are under active investigation. I understand that the Paul Murphy: My hon. Friend makes a valid point. Cardiff trading standards team and the Welsh scambusters The companies often confuse older people by offering team are investigating the issues raised by the right hon. opportunities that may never occur. They may refer Gentleman and they have been outlined in the BBC to loans as grants, and confuse the people they are television programme he mentioned. talking to. More broadly, I pay tribute to Age Cymru and its This is not the Minister’s direct responsibility, but research on the matter. I met its representatives back in will he liaise on this matter particularly—I will come to April to talk about the issue, and I know that many other recommendations—with his counterpart in the other Welsh Members of Parliament from all parties Welsh Assembly Government and Welsh local authorities have also met people from the organisation. I pay to publicise as much as possible the activities that we tribute to it for its excellent work to help to protect and have all condemned today, so that our constituents are support vulnerable elderly people, to enable them to live aware of them and can report them to the proper their lives in comfort. authorities? The Torfaen newspaper, which goes through I hope that hon. Members will be interested to know every letter box in the valley, has highlighted the issue, that my noble friend Baroness Randerson, the other so that people are made aware of it. That is the sort of Under-Secretary at the Wales Office, will be holding a thing that we must do. round table meeting at the Wales Office next month to I turn to more general points, which are important support Age Cymru’s work. As part of that, we are and on which the Government could help. First, will the bringing together organisations from across Wales, including Minister liaise with Royal Mail so that protocols are enforcement and consumer protection agencies, Royal changed to allow staff to offer advice and to report Mail, BT and Ofcom, to discuss how we can work suspicious mail? Postal companies should be empowered together to reduce older people’s exposure to such to refuse to deliver misleading, dishonest or scam mail scams. in which promises and guarantees of large sums of I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman is aware that money to the recipients are visible on the envelope. That the cross-party group on older people and ageing at the might require the law to be amended, but it is worth National Assembly for Wales met only last week to considering. Age Cymru has heard of older people discuss the issue and took evidence from a variety of receiving up to 70 letters a day from companies encouraging stakeholders. We have invited the chair of the group to them to take part in various scams. Secondly, will he participate in our round table next month, which I hope work with the telephone companies to offer more protection will join up the discussions that are happening in Cardiff against phone calls, especially from abroad, and to close with the issues that we are focusing on at UK level. down offenders’ lines? Thirdly, will he work with internet providers to increase protection by blocking access to Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD): The known offenders? right hon. Gentleman has raised a particular type of My hon. Friend the Member for Islwyn (Chris Evans) scam affecting Wales. A constituent, Mr Davies—I call referred to increasing the number of “no cold calling” him that because it is his name—responded to persistent zones throughout Wales. There are 14 in my constituency, attempts to get money out of him for carbon credit and and they are located specifically in areas where people eventually sent £3,000, which he has not seen again. are more elderly and vulnerable. They have been particularly Local police say that they cannot investigate because it successful in Torfaen, but they exist in other constituencies, is too complicated, and the Serious Fraud Office says it and they should be encouraged. I hope that the Minister is below its threshold. Will the Minister take that on will liaise with Welsh local government to ensure that board, and perhaps talk to me afterwards to look for a the matter is taken up. way forward to ensure that people receive justice? It is the collective job of the United Kingdom Stephen Crabb: I thank my hon. Friend for raising Government, the Welsh Assembly Government and that case. Without more detail, I cannot comment further, councils in Wales to protect the most vulnerable people but I would be very disappointed if Dyfed-Powys police in society from the activities of the unscrupulous rogues or the Serious Fraud Office were not able to investigate. who plague us and prey on older people. Let us see the detail, and hopefully we can raise that issue and get some progress on it. 5.6 pm We know that more than 3.2 million people—nearly The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales 7% of the entire UK population—fall victim to scams (Stephen Crabb): It is a pleasure to serve under your each year, and that fraud and scams generate more than chairmanship, Mr Weir. I pay tribute to and congratulate £9 billion of individual losses each year. That figure is the right hon. Member for Torfaen (Paul Murphy), a truly staggering. We can all say that we are in complete distinguished former Secretary of State for Wales, on agreement in this room this afternoon about the need to securing this debate on the importance of protecting protect all sections of society, and especially the elderly, older people in Wales from fraud and scams. I am aware against the harm caused by scams. 237WH Protecting Older People from Fraud 15 OCTOBER 2013 Protecting Older People from Fraud 238WH (Wales) (Wales) I take on board the point made by the right hon. consumers to take firm action against scams. Through a Member for Torfaen about the level of prosecutions renewed focus on prevention, there is an opportunity to concerning reported scams. It is important to recognise try to protect some of the most vulnerable members of and put on record that it is notoriously difficult to society from falling victim to unscrupulous people. investigate phone and e-mail scams and to pursue the I will now mention some ways in which consumers culprits behind them, because so often the scams originate can report scams and fraud. The Government have overseas. The solution, therefore, cannot just be one of established Action Fraud to allow for the reporting of enforcement, and that is where prevention comes in, as scams. Scams can be reported to Action Fraud by the right hon. Gentleman mentioned. phone or by completing an online fraud report. It is a In Cardiff, for example, the trading standards team simple and quick process, and most importantly, it recognise that prevention is key to reducing such crimes. alerts the most appropriate authority to a potential Last year, they set up monthly victim support meetings scam. If someone believes that they have been the with South Wales police and other partners, such as victim of a scam, or if they need help about how to Age UK, Age Cymru, Victim Support, and Care & advise someone whom they believe is the victim, they Repair. They work to identify victims of scams and can also contact the Citizens Advice consumer helpline, doorstep crime and provide further support, advice and which provides clear, practical help for consumers on education. As a result, they report that they are seeing what they should do. the number of cases raised at meetings decline. Through Where Citizens Advice identifies a breach of consumer making people aware of how to spot and avoid scams protection law, it can alert local authority trading standards and by utilising telephone and mailing preference services, enforcement. I encourage anyone who wishes to do so we can reduce exposure to scams and the likelihood that to make use of schemes such as the telephone preference someone will be taken in. service and the mailing preference service, which will The Government provide for advice on scams through stop addressed mail, and the “Your Choice” preference various agencies—particularly through the citizens advice service, which will stop unaddressed mailings. service, which provides clear and practical guidance to consumers over the phone and on websites. As a Over the past two years, the Government have better Government, we are also taking steps to ensure that equipped trading standards to hit scammers hard by people are aware of scams and know what to do if they transferring responsibility for cross-cutting leadership suspect a scam. and co-ordination of enforcement activity from the Office of Fair Trading to the National Trading Standards Nia Griffith: The Minister will be aware that the hon. Board. The NTSB funds and directs specialist scambuster Member for Romsey and Southampton North (Caroline teams in England and Wales to enable trading standards Nokes) proposed a ten-minute rule Bill. Will he comment to take a cross-regional approach to tackling scams and on whether the Government have any plans to implement rogue-trading practices. Scambusters currently have five the meat of that Bill, which was to allow, with safeguards, ongoing serious investigations into scams targeting older postal workers to intervene when they saw a huge people in Wales, and I will highlight a couple of their number of envelopes with those fancy prizes on the successes shortly. front going to one address? On the green deal, I strongly share the concerns of the right hon. Member for Torfaen about rogue traders Stephen Crabb: I thank the hon. Lady for raising that claiming to be associated with the green deal. We have point. I shall come to Royal Mail a bit later and seen that previously with double-glazing salesmen, with hopefully the information that I shall provide will suffice. households being targeted for inappropriate investments If not, I can follow that up in writing. in conservatories, and a few years ago, with the boom in The “Think Jessica” campaign and representative solar panels. bodies such as Age UK and citizens advice bureaux As constituency MPs, we have all had experience of work to raise awareness of the devastating impact that people coming to our surgeries reporting bad practice. scams and fraud can have on those who fall victim— The green deal is just another opportunity for some of especially the elderly—and on victims’ families. The these hardcore scammers and fraudsters to target vulnerable National Trading Standards Board has also provided households. In April this year, I visited the British Gas funding to trading standards in Wales for a national training academy in Tredegar, where proper qualified doorstep crime project. That project has a number of green deal assessors received their training and actions to undertake and that includes working alongside qualifications. Those are the people who households the Older People’s Commissioner for Wales, the Welsh should trust for green deal assessments, and not the Assembly and other Government Departments. rogue companies that the right hon. Gentleman mentioned. The Consumer Protection Partnership, which is made up of partners from the enforcement community, as The Consumer Protection Partnership is collating well as Citizens Advice and other Government bodies, emerging consumer issues around the green deal and has teamed up with fraud and scam experts, such as the has held discussions with the Department of Energy and Serious Organised Crime Agency and Action Fraud, to Climate Change. The CPP aims to ensure that initiatives implement a more holistic and joined-up approach to from all Government Departments—but especially on tackling scammers. As part of that, the citizens advice the green deal—take account of potential real harm to service and the Trading Standards Institute launched a consumers through fraud and misrepresentation. scam awareness campaign in May this year, which was Both trading standards and the Green Deal Oversight endorsed by the Under-Secretary of State for Business, and Registration Body naturally take a very serious Innovation and Skills, my hon. Friend the Member for view of rogue traders and will pursue them with the full East Dunbartonshire (Jo Swinson)—the consumer force of the law. While instances of abuse under the Minister—to raise awareness and to help empower green deal are only just starting to emerge, it is worth 239WH Protecting Older People from Fraud 15 OCTOBER 2013 Protecting Older People from Fraud 240WH (Wales) (Wales) [Stephen Crabb] communities are being targeted by fraudsters and there is a demand in the community for such an arrangement, putting on record that scambusters have notched up a we certainly do not wish to do anything against that. couple of impressive wins against other vultures who However, it is worth putting on the record that neither prey on the vulnerable in Wales. That serves as an do we want to harm genuine entrepreneurs, who make a example of what fraudsters operating under the green living legitimately, providing a legitimate service and deal banner can expect to receive. business to households on their doorsteps. There is a For example, one criminal was a cold-calling rogue balance to be struck, but where there are vulnerable trader builder, operating in the local authorities of communities who have suffered repeated targeting, perhaps south-west and mid-Wales. A scambuster investigation that is one of the solutions that can be community led. identified 21 victims of the man; they had paid more The hon. Member for Llanelli asked about Royal than £150,000 to him. The scambusters team was able Mail, which currently takes steps to raise awareness of to contact and offer support to a number of victims the problem of scam mail among its staff. It has put in through dedicated specialists. The investigation resulted place an internal reporting facility that allows customers, in the man being sentenced to 12 months’ imprisonment, including relatives or friends of suspected victims, to suspended for two years, for using aggressive commercial report concerns to postal workers or directly to a Royal practices against vulnerable people. I could point to Mail helpline, which allows advice to be issued and other examples as well, but time is against us. In order information to be passed on to an appropriate body—the to build further on successes such as that, and to police, trading standards or a support body—for action. continue to limit the real damage caused by rogue The company has been working with the police on traders in Wales, the NTSB has allocated a budget of identifying possible victims and postage accounts suspected £325,000 for its Welsh scambuster team this year. of being used to send scam mail. Again, I am happy to In summary, the fraudsters’ goal is a simple one: to follow up with the hon. Lady if she wants further cheat as many people as possible out of their money by information about what Royal Mail is doing to prevent making false promises. Fraud and scams hit the elderly scam mail. particularly hard; on becoming victims of a scam, they The right hon. Member for Torfaen described the often lose a disproportionate amount of money in people who perpetrate such crimes as crooks and gangsters. relation to other victims. I hope that I have been able to That is probably some of the more polite language that demonstrate this afternoon how, as a UK Government, we could use to describe such people. We absolutely we are taking action to combat the issues—particularly want to prevent them from operating. They are at times in Wales, where we are working alongside local authorities notoriously difficult to investigate and track down, but and the Welsh Government. We will keep that in sight, we as a Government take the issue extremely seriously. and if the right hon. Gentleman wants to follow up in We want to provide resources to local trading standards the weeks and months ahead, I will be very happy to departments and to the cross-cutting partnerships to continue the discussion. ensure that there is enforcement and action at the local I come back to a couple of specific questions that and Welsh national levels, right across the UK and have been raised by hon. Members. We were asked internationally where possible. about cold doorstep-calling and whether we would welcome Question put and agreed to. a ban, or an increased number of cold-calling “notspots”, where people are prevented from doing so. As a Government, we are certainly not against such initiatives 5.21 pm when they are genuinely community-led. When specific Sitting adjourned. 45WS Written Statements15 OCTOBER 2013 Written Statements 46WS

proposed) to put the voice of business at the heart of Written Statements the debate on cutting EU red tape. The members of the taskforce were Marc Bolland, chief executive M&S; Ian Tuesday 15 October 2013 Cheshire, CEO Kingfisher; Glenn Cooper, managing director ATG Access; Louise Makin, CEO BTG; Dale Murray CBE, entrepreneur and Angel Investor; and Paul Walsh, Diageo. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS The Government are today publishing the taskforce’s report: “Cut EU red tape”. The taskforce has drawn on Foreign Affairs Council over 100 business voices from across Europe, who have generated more than 250 proposals. Their report suggests practical ways to solve the day-to-day frustration, confusion The Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and and costs caused by poorly designed EU rules. Skills (Vince Cable): The EU Foreign Affairs Council The taskforce sets out 30 clear recommendations to (Trade) will take place in Luxembourg on 18 October improve the most burdensome EU rules, covering the 2013. My noble Friend Lord Green will represent the full range of business operations, including addressing UK on all the issues on the agenda. barriers to overall competitiveness, starting a business The substantive items on 18 October will be: and trading across borders. One Legislative item: Furthermore, the report proposes new principles—the “compete” principles—as a common sense filter through State of play on the proposal for a regulation of the which any new EU regulations must pass to ensure they European Parliament and of the Council establishing a are pro-innovation and pro-growth. framework for managing financial responsibility linked The Government warmly welcome the taskforce’s to investor-state dispute settlement tribunals established report and its concrete proposals for reducing unnecessary by international agreements to which the European costs and burdens for business. We will be considering Union is party. all these recommendations in detail as a priority; they Non-legislative items: will be a key part of our work to cut unnecessary EU State of play on the preparations for the Eastern regulation, including at the forthcoming October European Partnership summit (Vilnius, 28-29 November 2013)—Trade Council. aspects: We shall also be looking at how to take forward all of EU-Ukraine, DCFTA1 part of the association agreement. the suggestions from stakeholders that did not make it EU-Republic of Moldova, DCFTA part of the association into the final report. agreement. Copies of the taskforce’s report have been placed in EU-Georgia, DCFTA part of the association agreement. the Libraries of both Houses. EU-Republic of Armenia, DCFTA part of the association The report is also available online at: agreement. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/cut-eu- Items on which a vote may be requested are: adoption red-tape-report-from-the-business-taskforce. of the EU-China negotiations on investment, and adoption of the EU-ASEAN negotiations on investment. A vote might be requested on the declassification of the TREASURY Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP) mandate. ECOFIN (13-14 September) Other items not subject to a vote are: the state of play on preparations for the IX World Trade Organization Ministerial Conference (Bali, 3-6 December 2013) and The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David the state of play on China—anti-dumping/anti-subsidy Gauke): An informal meeting of the Economic and measures on wine. Financial Affairs Council was held in Vilnius on 1Deep and Comprehensive Free Trade Area Agreements 13-14 September 2013. Ministers discussed the following items: Working lunch for ECOFIN members Business-led Taskforce on EU Regulation (Report) There was a debrief to Ministers from the earlier Eurogroup discussion. The Commission also presented The Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation on its recently published proposal on the single resolution and Skills (Michael Fallon): Well designed and proportionate mechanism. EU legislation benefits the economy, for example by Economic outlook and financial stability of the EU eliminating outstanding barriers to the single market. ECOFIN discussed recent developments in the global But imposing unnecessary regulatory burdens on business economy, including the gradually improving macro- stifles innovation, job creation and growth, particularly economic and financial situation on the euro area and for small companies. This must be addressed, especially the EU. in the current economic climate. Reducing the burden Improving access to finance for SMEs—European policy of EU regulation on business is a priority for this options Government. ECOFIN discussed a number of Commission-EIB In June, the Prime Minister therefore appointed a designs for financing instruments aimed at leveraging taskforce of six business leaders to look at reforms to finance for SMEs. The UK highlighted that participation EU rules, regulations and practices (both existing and in this scheme should be voluntary for member states. 47WS Written Statements15 OCTOBER 2013 Written Statements 48WS

Follow-up to the G20 leader’ summit and preparation business has access to finance, but considers that national of the IMF/World Bank annual meetings and the G20 Governments are best placed to decide the most effective ministerial meeting policies to achieve this. Accordingly, participation in The presidency and Commission gave a short update this scheme should be voluntary for member states. on the outcome of the G20 leaders’ summit on European Semester: Lessons from 2013 and way forward 5-6 September and Ministers gave a mandate to the ECOFIN will hold an exchange of views on lessons Economic and Financial Affairs Committee to prepare to be learned from the 2013 European semester—the and endorse the IMFC statement and the EU G20 Commission’s yearly cycle of economic policy co-ordination terms of reference in preparation for the October meetings. —and the possible ways for further improvement for The UK endorsed the progress made at the G20 next year’s exercise. The Government welcome the leaders’ summit on the automatic exchange of tax opportunity to discuss this with the Commission and information and urged the Commission and the presidency other member states. to swiftly incorporate the new emerging global standard Follow-up to G20 Finance Ministers and Governors’ into EU law through the revision of the administrative meeting on 10-11 October 2013 and Annual Meetings of co-operation directive. the IMF and World Bank Group on 11-13 October in Future shape of the financial system—from the Banking Washington Union architecture to efficient structure of financial markets The Commission and presidency will provide a short The think-tank Bruegel presented on the structure of update on the outcomes of these meetings. G20 Finance the EU financial system going forward, based on a Ministers and Governors’ will discuss: recent developments paper they published for this discussion. An exchange in the global economy and financial sector vulnerabilities; of views followed. international financial architecture reform; financing Fight against tax fraud and tax evasion—towards a for investment; strengthening the G20 process; and a global standard on automatic exchange of information forward-look to priorities for the Australian presidency This discussion was opened by guest speaker, Angel in 2014. The annual meetings of the IMF and World Gurria, the Secretary-General of the OECD, who outlined Bank Group will discuss the economic outlook and developments made at the EU and global levels towards situation; and IMF policy issues, including governance, reaching a global standard on automatic exchange of surveillance, resources and the IMF’s support to low-income information. ECOFIN then held an exchange of views countries. on continuing this progress with the aim of tackling tax Preparation of the 19th Conference of Parties to the fraud and evasion. United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change (UNFCCC) in Warsaw from 11 to 22 November 2013 ECOFIN (15 October) ECOFIN will adopt conclusions on climate finance ahead of the UNFCCC conference in Warsaw in The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David November. Gauke): A meeting of the Economic and Financial Affairs Council will be held in Luxembourg on 15 October Tax Information Exchange (Oriental Republic 2013. The following items are on the agenda to be of Uruguay) discussed. Current legislative proposals The presidency intends to give a state of play update The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David on the following financial services dossiers: common Gauke): A tax information exchange agreement (TIEA) securities depositories regulation (CSDR); Omnibus II; with the Oriental Republic of Uruguay was signed on markets in financial instruments directive (MiFID); 14 October 2013. The text of the TIEA has been deposited single resolution mechanism (SRM); bank recovery and in the Libraries of both Houses and will be made resolution directive (BRRD); and deposit guarantee available on the HM Revenue and Customs website. scheme directive (DGSD). The text will be scheduled to a draft Order in Council Preparation of the European Council on 24-25 October and laid before the House of Commons in due course. 2013 a) Indicators and policy areas for strengthened economic policy co-ordination: DEFENCE ECOFIN will hold an exchange of views on indicators and policy areas for strengthened economic policy HMS Illustrious co-ordination. The Government recognise the desire for euro area countries to strengthen the co-ordination of their economic policies. However the Government consider The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence that, consistent with the June European Council (Mr Philip Dunne): On 10 September 2012, Official conclusions, participation in any new measures for economic Report, column 1WS, I announced plans to preserve the and monetary union should be voluntary for those legacy of the Royal Navy’s Invincible class aircraft outside the single currency and be fully compatible with carriers. the single market. HMS Illustrious, the last of these three iconic ships, b) Commission-EIB SME initiative: is due to retire from service with the Royal Navy in ECOFIN will consider Commission-EIB designs for 2014. The Ministry of Defence’s Disposal Services Authority financing instruments aimed at leveraging finance for (DSA) has today launched a competition which will small and medium-sized enterprises (SMEs). The seek innovative reuse bids to retain the ship in the UK, Government recognise the importance of ensuring small with part or all of it developed for heritage purposes. 49WS Written Statements15 OCTOBER 2013 Written Statements 50WS

As a first step, an industry day will be held early in an update from the European Commission on regulatory 2014 and applications to attend are now invited from fitness (REFIT); services liberalisation; innovation; an organisations able to put forward mature and viable update on latest developments on economic and monetary proposals, in keeping with the role and history of the union; and an open item for discussion on the current Invincible class of ships. foreign policy at the time of the European Council. Following the industry day, a full and open competitive I strongly supported the pro-growth agenda set for process will continue throughout the remainder of 2014. the October European Council. I highlighted that In the event that no suitable reuse bids with a heritage e-commerce, copyright, e-payment and big data, building element are submitted, the DSA will open up the on the G8 open data charter, are areas where particular competition by seeking proposals for other uses or priority should be given to achieve the greatest impact. recycling. I also highlighted the need to continue the work to reduce the regulatory burdens on businesses. A number of UK businesses were conducting a review on the top FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE 10 most burdensome EU regulations. I underlined that it would be important to listen to what business had to Foreign Affairs Council/General Affairs Council say. Balance of Competences The Minister for Europe (Mr David Lidington): The I briefed the GAC on the six first semester reports of 30 September General Affairs Council (GAC) focused the balance of competences review. The intention of on cohesion policy and the preparation for the this review is to provide a mechanism for objective 24-25 October European Council. I also provided the analysis based on evidence from a wide range of sources, Ministers of the GAC with an update on the work we rather than to recommend policy outcomes. The first are doing on our balance of competences exercise. six reports show there were clearly areas where the EU Cohesion Policy plays a positive role, but that there are also areas where changes could be made to make the EU work better. The GAC discussed a key issues paper that was prepared by the presidency. This paper focused on outstanding areas of disagreement with the European Parliament on the cohesion policy legislative package Private Security Providers Association Launch for 2014-20. This paper raised four main issues: macro- economic conditionality; the performance reserve; co-financing; and pre-financing. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign On macro-economic conditionality I restated that the and Commonwealth Affairs (Mark Simmonds): The UK UK’s opt-out from sanctions for macro-economic is, along with the USA, a global leader in the private conditionality agreed in the February European Council security company (PSC) market. Legitimate PSCs, working must be preserved. I also highlighted that the European to high standards, are vital to the protection of diplomatic Parliament should not have a role in decisions linked to missions and the work of companies and non-governmental economic governance beyond the economic dialogue organisations (NGOs) in complex and dangerous that has already been established, even where as with environments around the world. macro-economic conditionality these decisions do not The Government want to see the highest standards, apply to the UK. including on human rights, across all PSCs that work in The performance reserve is intended to reward good complex environments abroad. At the same time, the performance when using cohesion funding and ensure Government want to level the global playing field for that these funds are spent as effectively as possible. The those PSCs that work to high, measurable standards, so focus of discussion was over the percentage of the funds that they cannot be undercut by PSCs which do not allocated to the performance reserve. I maintained that meet those standards. any agreement must respect the ceilings agreed at the We have undertaken to establish a system of national February European Council and emphasised the certification to professional standards for PSCs, which importance of agreeing rules that improved the efficiency would measure PSCs’ implementation of the commitments and transparency of EU spending. and principles set out in the international code of Likewise, co-financing rates underpin the effective conduct for private security service providers (ICoC). use of structural funds. I argued that this purpose A large section of the PSC industry has signed up to should not be diluted unnecessarily and that any changes the ICoC, which envisages professional standards to to the co-financing rates should not alter the ceilings of implement the ICoC principles and the creation of a expenditure agreed in February. global oversight mechanism, named the ICoC Association Initial pre-financing addresses cash-flow issues by (ICoCA). The ICoCA forms the second track of the providing a proportion of spending at the start of Government’s approach to raising standards and levelling programmes. Here I raised our concern that the proposals the playing field for PSCs. The Government strongly could increase the levels of reste á liquider (build up of encourage all PSCs working in complex environments unspent commitments), which create uncertainty in the abroad to both pursue certification to these standards future levels of spending. by accredited certifying bodies and to become members Preparation of the October European Council of the ICoCA. The GAC discussed the draft annotated European The ICoCA was launched at a conference in Geneva Council agenda in preparation for the 24 and 25 October on 19 and 20 September. The UK, along with Australia, Heads of State and Government meeting. The agenda Sweden, Switzerland and the United States, is one of covers the digital single market; better regulation, including the founding member Governments of the ICoCA. 51WS Written Statements15 OCTOBER 2013 Written Statements 52WS

Thirteen civil society organisations and 135 PSCs have The Council then agreed a general approach on the also joined the ICoCA as founding members. Over 50 criminal law directive on counterfeiting the euro and of the 135 PSCs that have joined the ICoCA are UK-based. other currencies. The UK has not opted in to this The United Kingdom has provided £300,000 of funding proposal. to support the establishment of the ICoCA. Other Vice-President Reding presented her recent proposals founding states are also providing support. for the creation of a European Public Prosecutor’s The governance structure of the ICoCA will consist Office (EPPO) to prosecute offences of fraud against of a general assembly, a secretariat based in Geneva, the Union’s budget and for reform of Eurojust, the and a 12-person board of directors, with equal EU’s judicial co-operation agency. There was support, representation for each of the membership pillars of in principle, from a large proportion of member states—not Governments, civil society and industry. Former UK including the UK—for the EPPO but less agreement on Permanent Representative to the United Nations and issues of substance, including: scope; structure; competence; other international organisations in Geneva, Dr Peter powers; jurisdiction and governance. The coalition Gooderham CMG, has been elected to the board of agreement confirms that the UK will not take part in directors. The board of directors will establish the the establishment of the EPPO. On Eurojust, the UK procedures by which the ICoCA will fulfil its core regretted that the Commission had not awaited the functions. outcome of the ongoing peer evaluation of the current Future membership of the ICoCA for PSCs will framework and the UK sought an explanation as to depend on them being independently certified to approved why no impact assessment had accompanied this proposal. professional standards. The ICoCA will be able to The presidency committed to press ahead with both monitor member PSCs are fulfilling their obligations negotiations in parallel. under the ICoC, including through independent monitoring Over lunch there was a read-out of the EU/US in the field, and can receive complaints that a PSC has discussions on data protection which had been taking breached the principles of the ICoC. place in light of the Snowden leaks. We believe the twin-track approach of certification to Under any other business, the presidency asked member agreed standards and ICoCA oversight can help us states to help in lobbying the European Parliament to fulfil the UK’s commitments under the UN guiding overcome the current stalemate on delegated and principles on business and human rights. These implementing acts on the justice funding instruments. commitments were set out in the UK’s action plan on At the start of the interior day of the Council the business and human rights, which the Foreign Secretary presidency announced that Ministers had agreed, over and Business Secretary launched in September. lunch, to award the EU Police College (CEPOL) to Hungary on a temporary basis, as one of seven bids that followed the UK’s decision to sell CEPOL’s current site at Bramshill. The presidency noted that the 2005 HOME DEPARTMENT Council decision specifically naming Bramshill as the seat of CEPOL would still have to be amended and a member state initiative is expected. The Government Justice and Home Affairs Council will deposit this in Parliament in the usual way and expects it to trigger an opt-in decision under protocol 21 to the treaties. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Following a discussion at the June JHA Council, and Home Department (James Brokenshire): The Justice and pending a more comprehensive report to be given at the Home Affairs (JHA) Council and the Eastern Partnership December JHA Council, the Commission (Reding) gave ministerial meeting was held on 7 and 8 October in a presentation on free movement rights and the abuse of Luxembourg. My right hon. Friend the Lord Chancellor these rights. Noting that 19 member states had responded and Secretary of State for Justice and I attended on to its call for evidence, the Commission stated that free behalf of the United Kingdom. The following items movement of EU citizens was one of the fundamental were discussed. achievements of the EU. However, the Commission noted that free movement rights were weakened by The justice day began with a discussion of the “one-stop abuse and the Commission would support member shop” in relation to the data protection regulation. The states in using existing EU tools to fight such abuse. proposal is intended to bring consistency and efficiency These tools included sanctions, such as expulsion and to the oversight and enforcement of data protection re-entry bans in certain circumstances and with the rules by supervisory authorities, where the data controller appropriate safeguards. National authorities could also concerned has a presence in more than one member check whether an EU citizen had become an unreasonable state. burden, and if so could refuse residence and withhold Almost all member states supported the idea of a benefits. The Commission noted evidence of a minority one-stop shop in principle. However, that support was of EU mobile citizens with low employment prospects conditional on the way those objectives were achieved, who placed a strain on disadvantaged areas and on and it was clear that more work was needed. local services. The presidency concluded that work should now The Commission proposed five measures to ensure focus on its first proposed model for decisions to be that free movement rules struck the right balance between taken by the “main establishment” supervisory authority rights and obligations: working with member states to albeit with restricted powers but an intervention was produce a handbook on sham marriages; clarifying the made and the presidency agreed that the co-decision notion of “habitual residence” through a practical guide; model should also form part of further work by experts. increasing the share of European social funds (ESF) 53WS Written Statements15 OCTOBER 2013 Written Statements 54WS available to tackle social inclusion from around 15% to The Commission supported the measures proposed by 20%; organising workshops with the ESF managing Italy, and announced its proposal for a Mediterranean- authorities in the member states to exchange best practice; wide search and rescue mission to intercept migrant and inviting the mayors and local leaders of the regions boats from Cyprus to Spain, working in collaboration under the most pressure to a conference on free movement with Frontex. This should be accompanied by quick issues in spring 2014. implementation of EUROSUR, the planned external The UK welcomed the Commission’s acknowledgement border surveillance system for the Schengen area. In that fraud and abuse was a real issue, but said that there addition, Commissioner Malmström urged member states was still some way to go in ensuring that the legitimate to consider both resettlement and relocation activities concerns expressed by a number of member states were to demonstrate real solidarity for those member states taken seriously. A sterile debate about statistics would at the external border. Commissioner Malmström undermine public confidence in the EU and its institutions. announced that she would be visiting Lampedusa with The sham marriage handbook needed further work and President Barroso the following day. Baroness Ashton there was a need for consistent interpretation of the free underlined the importance of working with Libya and movement directive, for example on expulsion and re-entry joined others in noting the difficulty of further progress bans. Many member states supported the UK’s position, on joint migration work with the Libyan authorities. recognising that while free movement was a fundamental Frontex was more cautious regarding the ability to principle, fraud and abuse had to be counteracted. The conduct enhanced search and rescue efforts, highlighting Commission took note of the points raised and said that no provision for such activity was available in the they would be reflected in its final report. budget reserve for 2013. Next the presidency and the Commission updated Most Ministers took the floor to express their Ministers on the current EU response to the Syrian condolences. Support was given to the idea of a joint situation, described as the taskforce, as well as increased co-operation with third countries to dissuade migrants from making these “worst displacement crisis in the world.” dangerous journeys or to detect them earlier. It was With more than 2 million refugees in total, Syria’s agreed that the focus should be on effective engagement neighbourhood continued to bear the brunt of the crisis with the Libyan authorities. The UK agreed that the and the UN Refugee Agency (UNHCR) called for collective response must improve. There was a need to greater resettlement efforts by the international community. target the organised criminal groups which exploited To date, nine EU member states have pledged resettlement the migrants, and to have a better and more coherent places, and the Commission encouraged others to follow dialogue on migration, mobility and security with an suit. increased emphasis on border management. Migration The Commission said that the regional development issues needed to be fully incorporated into the EU’s and protection programme (RDPP) was making progress. wider external engagement with countries of origin and A total of £6.8 million had also been mobilised from transit. The Commission agreed to take forward the the European refugee fund (ERF), but it was critical to setting up of the taskforce, and would provide more note that only £3.3 million remained in the pot for information on the search and rescue operation shortly. emergency actions. Future measures which might need Ministers were briefed by Baroness Ashton on the to be considered were: greater co-operation between importance of civilian contributions to common security European Asylum Support Office (EASO) and the member and defence policy (CSDP) missions, particularly in states under pressure; activating the civil protection the field of justice and home affairs (JHA). The success mechanism under the right conditions; and triggering of the missions was underlined, as were the challenges the temporary protection directive (TPD) should the of maintaining them. Particular attention was drawn to situation continue to deteriorate to the point where the the sizeable contribution made by secondees from justice threshold was met. and home affairs ministries. Ministers were thanked for these contributions and were encouraged to do even The EU’s High Representative, Cathy Ashton, described more. the situation on the ground. She welcomed the UN Security Council resolution and noted that the neighbouring The Commission briefly updated on the outcome of countries were becoming increasingly unstable. A total the first relocation forum on 25 September. The objective of 25% of Lebanon’s population was now made up of of the forum was to offer discussion on the mechanics Syrian refugees. The Geneva II process continued, but for relocation in order to assist those member states had a long way to go, as the projection for the next year which would in the future consider relocating. The was that the total refugee population would increase to Commission underlined its voluntary nature, a point 3.9 million. EASO noted that for half the EU member which EASO echoed, and noted it should not be confused states, Syrians were now within the top three asylum with resettlement. intake. The UK highlighted that it had provided over The Finnish delegation briefly noted the ministerial £500 million to the relief effort in the region, as well as conference on Schengen states with external land borders, participating in the RDPP with a contribution of £425,000. which took place on 13 September, involving the Interior For the UK, more protection and support in the region, Ministers of Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland rather than resettlement activity, was necessary for a and the Slovak Republic. The conference had led to a sustainable longer term solution. The presidency called number of joint commitments on co-operation between for close monitoring of the situation, and asked the various authorities in order to secure the internal area. Commission to pursue further solutions. Greece noted progress made in recent months against Next Italy outlined the tragedy which took place on its national action plan. The new asylum and appeals 3 October in Lampedusa, proposing rapid establishment service had opened its doors on 7 June, and already of a taskforce to oversee a range of measures in response. registered a total of 2,547 applications. The first mobile 55WS Written Statements15 OCTOBER 2013 Written Statements 56WS screening units had been deployed to some of the Supervision of deputies; islands, and the authorities were still on track to open Access to the registers; the first reception centre in Lesbos at the end of 2013. Proposals for a fully digital lasting power of attorney. In the margins of the JHA Council, the presidency The consultation will run until 26 November. Following this, it facilitated a plenary discussion with the Eastern Partnership is our intention to make the necessary changes to enable some of countries on judicial reform, judicial co-operation, the the provisions to come into force during 2014, although the rule of law, corruption, organised crime, cybercrime, proposals for a fully digital lasting power of attorney post 2014 and migration and mobility. Ministers adopted a joint will require primary legislation. declaration and the presidency hoped it would be the Today, I have deposited copies of the consultation paper in the first of many such meetings. Libraries of both Houses. Copies are also available in the Vote Office and Printed Paper Office. Copies are available on the internet at: www.justice.gov.uk.

JUSTICE WORK AND PENSIONS

Office of the Public Guardian Office for Nuclear Regulation

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice The Minister of State, Department for Work and (Mr Shailesh Vara): My right hon. and noble Friend the Pensions (Mike Penning): The Department for Work Minister of State, Ministry of Justice, Lord McNally, and Pensions has obtained approval for an advance made the following written ministerial statement: from the Contingencies Fund of £550,000 to implement The Government are today publishing a consultation paper shared services (HR, finance and procurement) for the seeking views on the next phase of our proposals to transform the Office for Nuclear Regulation. This advance is necessitated services provided by the Office of the Public Guardian (OPG). This reinforces our commitment to implementing the “digital by by the lead in time for delivery prior to Royal Assent of default” approach in public services. the Energy Bill. The OPG is currently undertaking a programme of reform Parliamentary approval for additional resource of that is designed to meet two key challenges. First, to reform its £550,000 for this new service will be sought in a systems and processes in order to deal effectively and consistently supplementary estimate for the Department for Work with ever increasing demand to register lasting powers of attorney—a and Pensions. Pending that approval, urgent expenditure trend that is set to continue with the country’s ageing demographic. estimated at £550,000 will be met by repayable cash Secondly, to transform the way its services are delivered to the public in order to reduce bureaucracy, making its services to advances from the Contingencies Fund. The repayment customers simpler, more efficient and more accessible. This will is expected to be made in the financial year 2013-14. be achieved by making the majority of its services accessible This advance will allow the Office for Nuclear Regulation online. to continue to work to its current development timetable Our consultation paper, therefore, seeks views on the following and implement shared services in time for the Office for issues: Nuclear Regulation to be established as a public corporation The forms and application process for lasting powers of attorney; in April 2014. 631W Written Answers15 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 632W Written Answers to Financial Services: Somalia Mr Gregory Campbell: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what steps he plans to take following Questions Barclays’ decision to cease providing money transfer Tuesday 15 October 2013 services to Somalia to ensure there are robust measures against suspected money laundering between the UK and Somalia. [170418] PRIME MINISTER Sajid Javid: The Government is committed to supporting Hillsborough Independent Panel a healthy and legitimate remittance sector, and ensuring that UK citizens are able to continue to remit funds Steve Rotheram: To ask the Prime Minister how safely to family abroad. A written ministerial statement many briefings he has received on the investigations was laid on 10 October outlining the range of actions into the Hillsborough disaster since 12 September we are taking to ensure that the UK’s remittance sector 2012. [170893] is compliant and that there is robust supervision of money transmitters for anti-money laundering and counter The Prime Minister: I am regularly updated on progress financing of terrorism obligations. of investigations into the Hillsborough disaster. National Insurance Contributions Sri Lanka Mr Hoban: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Ian Austin: To ask the Prime Minister what plans he how many people earning less than £10,000 each year has to raise the issue of human rights in Sri Lanka at paid National Insurance contributions; and what the the upcoming Commonwealth Heads of Government total value of such contributions was in the latest year Meeting in Colombo, Sri Lanka. [171050] for which figures are available. [170571] The Prime Minister: As I have made clear in previous Mr Gauke: In 2011-12 there were around 2.27 million answers in the House, I will raise the human rights employees who had annual earnings below £10,000 but situation in Sri Lanka when I attend the Commonwealth above the NICs primary threshold of £7,225. However, Heads of Government Meeting. The Government is there were a further 3.73 million employees who, although concerned about the lack of progress on freedom of they had annual earnings below £7,225, still had a NICs expression and religion, judicial independence, post-conflict liability. reconciliation and accountability. This is due to the fact that NICs liabilities are calculated separately each time someone is paid and not on an NORTHERN IRELAND annual basis, and it is therefore possible for someone to have annual earnings less than the annual £7,225 threshold, Disclosure of Information but still have a NICs liability if they were paid above the weekly or monthly threshold in any one week or month. Ms Ritchie: To ask the Secretary of State for The combined NIC liabilities of the 6.00 million employees Northern Ireland what discussions she has had with the totalled £1.02 billion. Secretary of State for Defence regarding the release of documents relating to Northern Ireland held at Taxation: Germany Swadlincote under the 30-year rule. [170839] Harriett Baldwin: To ask the Chancellor of the Mrs Villiers: I have not had discussions with the Exchequer how many mutual assistance in recovery of Secretary of State for Defence, my right hon. Friend the debt demands have been made by the German tax Member for Runnymede and Weybridge (Mr Hammond), authorities against UK tax residents in the last five regarding whether documents held at Swadlincote should years. [170383] be released under the 30 year rule. Mr Gauke: HMRC has no legal authority to disclose this information without the permission of the German TREASURY tax authorities, who are the data owners. HMRC does not currently have their permission to disclose such Currencies data. Alun Cairns: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer (1) what assessment he has made of the use of (a) bitcoins and (b) other virtual currencies; and what DEFENCE assessment he has made of the potential risks in terms Afghanistan of laundering when such currencies are used; [169651] (2) what guidance his Department provides to banks Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for and businesses on the use of bitcoins. [169652] Defence how many legal professionals in his Department provide advice to personnel operating Sajid Javid: HM Treasury has not made an assessment drones in Afghanistan. [R] [169712] of the use of virtual currencies and the money laundering risks posed by the use of such currencies. Mr Francois: It is not possible to put an exact figure HM Treasury does not provide guidance to banks on the number of legal professionals providing advice and businesses on the use of bitcoins. to personnel operating unmanned aircraft systems (UAS), 633W Written Answers15 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 634W including the Reaper Remotely Piloted Aircraft System Year/service Number of AWOL incidents (RPAS), as legal advice is not purely limited to their deployment to Afghanistan. 2011 10 Prior to an operational deployment all UK armed 2012 15 forces personnel receive a detailed legal briefing as part 2013 (to 9 October 2013) 15 of their comprehensive pre-deployment training. In addition, RAF personnel operating aircraft, including The figures have been rounded to the nearest five or Reaper, receive detailed legal advice from legal professionals 10. The number of incidences of reported AWOL may during their training. While deployed on operations include the same individual more than once. additional legal advice can be sought through channels reaching back to the UK. Armed Forces: Employment

Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Simon Hart: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence pursuant to the answer to the hon. Member Defence what career transition support is available to for Blaydon, of 10 June 2013, Official Report, personnel leaving the armed forces; and if he will list column 5W, on Afghanistan, for what reasons his the specific courses and training available to such Department is not participating in the review of personnel. [170548] criteria required to establish positive identification and determination of status undertaken by international Anna Soubry: All service leavers are entitled to some forces in Afghanistan, following the UN Mission in form of resettlement assistance to enable a successful Afghanistan’s 2012 report on the protection of transition into civilian life. This assistance includes a civilians in armed conflict. [R] [170281] suite of training and employment support from the Career Transition Partnership (CTP), a partnering Mr Francois: The UK meets the requirements to seek arrangement between the Ministry of Defence and Right to protect civilians under International Humanitarian Management Limited, part of the Manpower Group. Law. UK policy includes robust criteria on establishing Training is also available for those who have left the positive identification and requires commanders to do armed forces, where training vacancies exist, for up to everything feasible to verify that the target is a military two years post-discharge. objective. The UK Targeting Directive and Rules of The opportunities provided by the CTP include Engagement for Operation Herrick, which are approved employment fairs, career transition workshops and by Ministers, provide clear direction for commanders vocational training courses. These courses, which may on this policy, which is constantly reviewed in light of last between one and six weeks, cover the full breadth of changing circumstances and advances in technology. industry, and number in hundreds. Comprehensive An additional review in response to the UN Mission in information about all of the job-related training courses Afghanistan’s report is therefore not necessary. and workshops offered by the CTP can be searched or Armed Forces: Absence Without Leave downloaded from: https://www.ctp.org.uk/ Gemma Doyle: To ask the Secretary of State for Courses are constantly updated to reflect new qualifications Defence what estimate he has made of the number of and employment market trends. serving personnel who went absent without leave as a result of bullying and abuse in the armed forces in a) Armed Forces: Rangers Football Club 2010, b) 2011, c) 2012 and d) 2013 to date. [169914] George Galloway: To ask the Secretary of State for Anna Soubry: This information is not held in the Defence (1) if he will condemn the sectarian behaviour format requested. The information readily available on of some British soldiers at an Armed Forces day at armed forces personnel who have been absent without Ibrox Park on 28 September 2013; [170271] leave (AWOL) in the last four years, broken down by (2) what disciplinary measures have been taken service is detailed in the following table. against British soldiers who took part in sectarian Year/service Number of AWOL incidents behaviour at Ibrox Park on 28 September 2013; [170272] Naval service (3) who authorised the appearance of British soldiers 2010 75 at an Armed Forces’ day at Ibrox Park on Saturday 2011 70 28 September 2013; [170274] 2012 50 (4) when he was first made aware of the sectarian 2013 (to 9 October 2013) 35 behaviour of some British soldiers at an Armed Forces’ day at Ibrox Park on Saturday 28 September 2013. Army [170275] 2010 1,990 2011 1,460 Mr Francois: The alleged sectarian activity by British 2012 1,060 service personnel who attended the match at Ibrox Park 2013 (to 9 October 2013) 645 on 28 September 2013 is currently being investigated by Police Scotland. The service authorities, where appropriate, Royal Air Force are also investigating the behaviour of their personnel 2010 5 who were at the match. This is the appropriate way for these allegations to be dealt with. 635W Written Answers15 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 636W

Sectarian behaviour, of any nature, is unacceptable, £ million and is a breach of the armed forces values and standards. Financial year Investment Savings Any personnel found to have fallen short of these values and standards will be dealt with appropriately. 2011-12 10 7 Service personnel were authorised to attend the match 2012-13 40 33 (following an invitation from the Rangers Charity 2013-14 55 70 Foundation) by the service commanders in Scotland. 2014-15 (projected) 70 Total 105 180 Bullying The Department expects to continue to save some £70 million annually as a result of this investment. Gemma Doyle: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what estimate he has made of the level of David T. C. Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for absence of civilian staff of his Department attributable Defence what the annual cost of the green electricity to bullying and abuse in the workplace. [169915] supply to sites used by his Department in the UK and Germany was in each of the last five years. [169911] Anna Soubry: This information is not held in the format requested. However, it is Ministry of Defence Anna Soubry: Electricity supplies to Ministry of Defence policy that all civilian personnel, regardless of grade, (MOD) sites in Great Britain are now 100% green have a right to be treated with dignity and respect. All under a Government Procurement Service initiative. civilian personnel also have a responsibility to ensure This is cost neutral to the Department as the premium that the working environment is free from all forms of for a green electricity supply is equivalent to the Climate bullying and harassment and that the dignity of others Change Levy rate for electricity. is respected. A supply of green electricity is not available in Northern Joint Service Publication 763 sets out the Department’s Ireland. policy on the complaints procedure relating to bullying Approximately 75-80% of electricity supplied to MOD and harassment, for civilian personnel who feel they bases in Germany is from renewable energy sources have been subject to such behaviour. Complaints of under the German Erneuerbare-Energien-Gesetz (EEG) bullying and harassment are taken seriously and are Act. This is not separately contracted for but comes as investigated. part of the supply provided by German electricity suppliers. The Department is committed to the health and well-being of employees. We have policies in place setting David T. C. Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for out how the organisation fulfils its legal obligations, the Defence what amount his Department plans to spend responsibilities of different functions, details of specialists under each cost heading on energy saving projects over and the range of services available to help employees the next 10 years. [169912] maintain health and well-being. The Department recognises that well-being and Anna Soubry: It is currently too early to say how performance are linked and that improving employees’ much the Ministry of Defence plans to spend on energy health and well-being will ultimately lead to improved saving projects over the next 10 years. employee and organisational performance. We encourage staff to use the Employee Well-being Service, a helpline David T. C. Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for which provides support to civilian staff who experience Defence what return on investment his Department personal or work-related problems. receives from the £54.2 million it has spent on energy saving measures to date. [169969]

Carbon Emissions Anna Soubry: The Department’s investment of £54.2 million on energy saving measures is expected to David T. C. Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for provide a return of some £39 million per annum. Defence how much his Department spent on the Government Carbon Offsetting Framework in the Gulf States latest year for which figures are available. [169890] Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Anna Soubry: The amount spent on the Government Defence pursuant to the answer of 10 June 2013, Carbon Offsetting Framework for financial year 2012-13 Official Report, column 14W, on Gulf States, whether was £11,611. Royal Air Force support to the US in the Gulf includes intelligence provision and analysis for the purposes of Energy drone strikes. [R] [169714] Mr Robathan: It does not. David T. C. Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what amount his Department expects to save Historical Enquiries Team annually as a result of its £55 million investment in energy saving measures. [169910] Ms Ritchie: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what his policy is on declassifying and transferring Anna Soubry: The amount invested and the savings historical files relating to Northern Ireland held at made through the Energy Spend to Save Programme Swadlincote to the National Archive under the 30-year are shown in the following table: rule. [170840] 637W Written Answers15 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 638W

Anna Soubry: The Ministry of Defence’s (MOD) Military Bases: Yorkshire and the Humber policy for the capture, management and final disposal, including transfer to the National Archives, of the Hugh Bayley: To ask the Secretary of State for MOD’s records is detailed in Joint Service Publication Defence what estimate he has made of the cost of 441—Defence Records Management Policy and Procedures. providing (a) accommodation and (b) IT A copy of JSP 441 has been placed in the Library of the infrastructure, (c) mandated disabled access House. JSP 441 can also be found on the Gov.uk requirements and (d) other appropriate facilities for website: HQ 4th Infantry Brigade and HQ North East (AF Bde https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/jsp-441-defence- HQ) at (i) Imphal Barracks in York and (ii) Catterick records-management-policy-and-procedures--2 Garrison. [170403] All files relating to Northern Ireland held at Swadlincote will be assessed by the MOD and National Archives Mr Dunne: As the Secretary of State for Defence, my officials for sensitivity and historic value. Those files right hon. Friend the Member for Runnymede and deemed worthy of permanent preservation will be selected Weybridge (Mr Hammond), announced on 5 March for transfer to the National Archives. 2013, Official Report, columns 845-60, the current Headquarters (HQ) 15 (North East) Brigade and HQ Libya 4th (Mechanized) Brigade will merge in Catterick to Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for form the Adaptable Force Brigade Headquarters in the Defence pursuant to the answer of 31 January 2013, north-east. The new establishment will be called Official Report, column 882W, what the rank and role Headquarters 4th Infantry Brigade and Headquarters of UK exchange officers who contributed unmanned North East. It is currently too early to estimate the costs aerial vehicle operations in Libya in 2011 was. [R] involved in providing appropriate facilities for HQ 4th Infantry Brigade and HQ North East (AF Bde HQ) [170280] at Catterick Garrison. There are no plans to locate HQ Mr Francois: The UK exchange officers were three 4th Infantry Brigade and HQ North East (AF Bde HQ) RAF officers at Flight Lieutenant rank. Their role was at Imphal Barracks. to act as pilots for remotely piloted air systems. Performance Appraisal This corrects the response given by my predecessor, my right hon. Friend the Member for South Leicestershire (Mr Robathan), to my hon. Friend the Member for Mrs Lewell-Buck: To ask the Secretary of State for Gillingham and Rainham (Rehman Chishti) on 31 January Defence what proportion of (a) disabled and (b) all 2013, Official Report, column 882W. other staff employed by his Department received each level of performance rating in their end of year Lighting performance assessment for 2012-13. [170467]

David T. C. Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Anna Soubry: As an equal opportunities employer Defence what amount his Department spent on energy the Ministry of Defence is committed to meet its obligations efficient lighting in each of the last five years. [169913] under the legislation. However, the information requested on the proportion of disabled personnel receiving each Anna Soubry: The amount spent on energy efficient level of performance rating is not available in the format lighting since financial year 2011-12 is shown in the requested. The proportion of staff receiving each level following table: of performance rating for 2012-13 is set out in the following table: Financial year Expenditure (£ million)

2011-12 2.1 Performance rating1 All staff2 (percentage) 2012-13 19.4 5 24.0 2013-14 (planned) 10 4 46.1 Data prior to financial year 2011-12 is not held 3 28.9 centrally and could be provided only at disproportionate 20.8 cost. 10.2 Total 100 Military Aircraft 1 5 is graded ’Outstanding’ to 1 requiring ’Restoring Efficiency’ action. 2 Percentages are calculated from the numbers of non-industrial personnel Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for below the senior civil service recorded as reported upon for the year. Defence what representations he has received from Redundancy Raytheon regarding a Maritime Patrol version of the Sentinel R.1 aircraft. [170413] Jackie Doyle-Price: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Dunne: As part of an invitation to industry to Defence (1) how many staff were made redundant from provide ideas to inform our Air Intelligence, Surveillance, non-departmental public bodies accountable to his Target Acquisition and Reconnaissance Optimisation Department in (a) 2010-11, (b) 2011-12 and (c) Study, representatives of Raytheon have held discussions 2012-13; and how many redundancy payments were with officials from the Ministry of Defence. These have made in lieu of notice; [170347] included the possibility of modifying the radar on (2) how many staff in his Department were made Sentinel to provide a maritime surface search capability, redundant in (a) 2010-11, (b) 2011-12 and (c) though this would not constitute a full maritime patrol 2012-13; and how many such staff received payments aircraft capability. in lieu of notice. [170365] 639W Written Answers15 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 640W

Anna Soubry: The following table details the number arrangements is not held centrally. A full breakdown of of officials who left the Ministry of Defence through the reasons for staff leaving is given in the Quarterly voluntary release and redundancy or under the terms of Civilian Personnel Report (QCPR) which can be found the Voluntary Early Release Scheme (VERS) in the last at: four financial years (FY). A small number of these officials received compensation in lieu of notice (CILON) payments, www.dasa.mod.uk/index.php/publications/personnel/civilian/ and the numbers of staff involved are included in the quarterly-civilian-personnel-report table. Data on non-departmental public bodies’ payroll

Financial year 2010-11 2011-12 2012-13 2013-141

MOD Main Voluntary Release and Redundancy 180 40 40 40 Voluntary Early Release Scheme (VERS) 0 5,950 3,240 1,890 Received CILON Payments 50 50 90 10

Trading Funds Voluntary Release and Redundancy 150 470 40 40 1 To 30 June 2013. Notes: 1. Figures include all permanent, casual and Trading Funds civilian personnel but exclude all Royal Fleet Auxiliary and locally engaged civilians. DataonCILON payments to Trading Funds civilian personnel is not held centrally, 2. Personnel exiting under VERS from 1 July 2011 onwards are listed separately from exits due to alternate voluntary release or redundancy schemes. 3. Where rounding has been used, totals and sub-totals have been rounded separately and so may not equal the sums of their rounded parts. When rounding tothe nearest 10, numbers ending in ″5″ have been rounded to the nearest multiple of 20 to prevent systematic bias.

Sustainable Development Report, column 36W, where we stated that the Ministry of Defence has no plans for the operational use of any David T. C. Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for unmanned air systems in the UK. Defence how much his Department saves each year through meeting its Greening Government targets by Warships: Procurement March 2015. [169970] Anna Soubry: The Ministry of Defence does not Mr Ellwood: To ask the Secretary of State for separately record how much it saves by achieving its Defence what discussions he has had with the defence Greening Government targets. industry on procuring a littoral combat ship for future use by the Royal Navy. [169944] Unmanned Air Vehicles Mr Dunne: The Littoral Combat Ship is a US programme Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for which the UK has no involvement in, so no discussions Defence when the final unmanned aerial vehicle MQ-9 with industry have taken place. Reapers will be delivered to the UK; how many The nearest Royal Navy equivalent, in terms of breadth Reapers will be sent to Afghanistan; and when such a of capability, would be the Type 26 Global Combat transfer will take place. [170412] Ship programme, which offers a multi-role platform able to operate in both littoral and open ocean environments. Mr Dunne: Five additional Reaper aircraft were ordered This programme is currently in its Assessment Phase, in 2010 as part of the investment required to double the and the main investment decision is expected to be UK Reaper remotely piloted aircraft capability. made around the middle of the decade, when we expect Equipment delivery is ongoing, with the first three to take the design forward to manufacture. new Reaper aircraft nearing completion of acceptance testing. The remaining two new Reaper aircraft are planned to begin and complete final acceptance testing over the next two months. Once the new aircraft have HOME DEPARTMENT completed acceptance testing, they will be moved to Afghanistan. The availability of UK assets in support Antisocial Behaviour: Greater Manchester of current operations in Afghanistan is operationally sensitive; consequently, I will not provide specific details Lucy Powell: To ask the Secretary of State for the as to do so would prejudice the capability, effectiveness Home Department how many instances of anti-social or security of the armed forces. behaviour by people in Manchester have been reported Unmanned Air Vehicles: Northern Ireland in each year since 1997. [170226] Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Norman Baker: The number of antisocial behaviour Defence whether his Department has any plans to use incidents recorded by Greater Manchester police between unmanned aerial vehicles over Northern Ireland. [R] 2007-08 and 2012-13 (the period for which data arecurrently [169711] available) can be viewed in the table. These data were published by the Office for National Statistics (ONS) Mr Francois: I refer the hon. Member to the answer on 18 July 2013 in their police force area data tables. my predecessor gave on 25 February 2013, Official There are no data held centrally prior to 2007-08. 641W Written Answers15 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 642W

Antisocial behaviour incidents (non-National Statistics), Greater Manchester police force area, 2007-08 to 2012-13—England and Wales 2007-081 2008-091 2009-101 Number of Rate per 1,000 Number of Rate per 1,000 Number of Rate per 1,000 incidents population incidents population incidents population

Greater Manchester 252,656 99 237,580 93 215,292 83

2010-112 2011-123, 4 2012-133,4 Number of Rate per 1,000 Number of Rate per 1,000 Number of Rate per 1,000 incidents population incidents population incidents population

Greater Manchester 161,652 62 147,201 56 133,848 50 1 Official statistics on ASB incidents were collected by the National Policing Improvement Agency (NPIA) in 2007-08, 2008-09 and 2009-10. 2 Official statistics on ASB incidents were collected by Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary (HMIC) in 2010-11. 3 Official statistics on ASB incidents were collected by the Home Office from 2011-12. 4 Following a different approach to recording antisocial behaviour incidents data, figures for 2011-12 and 2012-13 are not directly comparable with previous years; see Chapter 5 of the User Guide for more information. Note: All police forces record incidents of ASB reported to them in accordance with the provisions of the National Standard for Incident Recording (NSIR). While incidents are recorded under NSIR in accordance with the same ‘victim focused’ approach that applies for recorded crime, these figures are not accredited National Statistics and are not subject to the same level of quality assurance as the main recorded crime collection. Incident counts should be interpreted as incidents recorded by the police, rather than reflecting the true level of victimisation. Other agencies also deal with anti-social behaviour incidents (for example, local authorities and social landlords); incidents reported to these agencies will not generally be included in police figures. Source: Police recorded incidents, Home Office.

Asylum how many of those were refused permission to remain in the UK and asked to leave the UK; and how many left the UK in each year. [164789] Mr Frank Field: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department with reference to the answer of 9 Mr Harper: In answering this question we have February 2011, Official Report, column 335W, on interpreted illegal immigrants as individuals who have asylum, how many immigrants claimed asylum been served papers as immigration offenders, prior to following detection and being served papers as claiming asylum. immigration offenders in each year for which figures The information requested is shown in the following are available; how many of those were granted asylum; table:

Table 1: Identified illegal immigrants, 1 January 2008 to 30 June 2013 Year of asylum claim 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012 2013

Claimed asylum following 17,024 13,368 9,821 10,679 10,477 5,200 detection Granted 4,703 3,259 2,520 3,602 3,499 1,483 Refused 9,747 7,830 6,103 5,590 4,678 2,068 Other 2,497 2,169 1,141 1,113 956 378 Removed 4,431 3,607 2,589 2,170 1,574 667 Notes: 1. All figures quoted have been derived from management information and are therefore provisional and subject to change. This information has not been quality assured under National Statistics protocols. 2. Figures relate to main applicants only. 3. All data relates to individuals served papers as immigration offenders, who subsequently claimed asylum between 1 January 2008 to 30 June 2013. 4. Grants relate to individuals granted asylum or a form of leave eg Humanitarian Protection and Discretionary Leave at first decision. 5. Refusals relate to individuals refused at first decision. 6. Other outcomes relate to asylum applications that have not been granted or refused eg unconcluded, and withdrawn. 7. Removals relate to asylum claims made in the specified years. However, actual removals-may have occurred in year of asylum claim or a subsequent year.

Bridget Phillipson: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Harper: The accommodation provided to failed the Home Department how many complaints have asylum seekers under section 4 of the Immigration and been made against the Commercial and Operational Asylum Act 1999 is not equipped with landline telephones. Managers Procuring Asylum Support Services project Capita to date, under each of its key performance criteria areas and in each region in which it operates. [167095] Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for the Mr Harper: The Home Office does not hold the Home Department by which criteria payments to information centrally and to obtain it would incur Capita are performance-related for her Department’s disproportionate cost. procurement contracts. [170578] Asylum: Finance James Brokenshire [holding answer 14 October 2013]: The information is not held centrally and could be obtained only at disproportionate cost. Sarah Teather: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what assessment she has made of Detainees: Overseas Students the ability of households in receipt of support under section 4 of the Asylum Act 1999 to access a landline Mr Andrew Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for telephone. [170489] the Home Department how many foreign nationals 643W Written Answers15 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 644W detained under immigration powers, in each quarter Entry Clearances since January 2009 entered the UK through Tier 4 of the Points Based System. [154071] Greg Mulholland: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how long on average it has Mr Harper: The data held on the number of foreign taken the UK Border Agency to process visa nationals detained under immigration powers who entered applications in each of the last five years. [168899] the UK through Tier 4, is not held in a format which Mr Harper: We currently split our customer service would enable us to easily collate and report. To obtain standards into two categories, ’settlement’ and ’non- this data would involve the examination of individual settlement’. records, at a disproportionate cost. The ’settlement’ category includes applications: to enter the UK to join or accompany a spouse or civil partner; Driving under Influence: Drugs and from children to enter the UK to join or accompany a parent that is settled in the UK. Graeme Morrice: To ask the Secretary of State for The ‘non-settlement’ category includes applications the Home Department what the cost of (a) purchasing to enter the UK: and (b) deploying the Home Office-approved as a visitor (including as a tourist, to visit family, to conduct handheld device for use at a police station to enforce business, as a short-term student); the law relating to drug driving is. [169961] as a highly skilled migrant under PBS Tier 1; a skilled worker under PBS Tier 2; Damian Green: The Home Office does not hold this a student under PBS Tier 4; information. Once manufactured and type approved, a temporary worker under PBS Tier 5 (including YouthMobility); decisions on the purchase and deployment of station-based and devices is an operational decision for chief officers, in in all other non-settlement categories (including EEA Family consultation with drug testing device manufacturers, as Permits, UK Ancestry, Returning Residents, Transit). they will know what best meets their individual force The average processing times for these two categories needs. of applications for the last five years are:

Non-settlement applications 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012

Average time taken (days) 5.8 7.4 7.6 7.3 7.2 Application volumes (million) 2.49 2.54 2.46 2.37 2.33

Settlement applications 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012

Average time taken (days) 30.5 40.4 36.2 54.4 51.0 Application volumes 79,000 75,000 78,000 64,000 65,000

We have service standards for processing UK visa Steve Rotheram: To ask the Secretary of State for the applications. Our standards say that we will process: Home Department how many people in (a) Liverpool, 90% of non-settlement applications within three weeks, 98% Walton constituency, (b) Liverpool and (c) England within six weeks and 100% within 12 weeks of the application have been granted work permits since May 2010. date; and [170510] 95% of settlement applications within 12 weeks of the application date and 100% within 24 weeks of the application date. Mr Harper [holding answer 14 October 2013]: We do not hold statistical information broken down by We define one week as five working days. The figures constituency. for average processing times are given in working days. The processing time starts when the biometric data is Tier 2 of the points-based system replaced the work given by the applicant, and ends when a decision has permit arrangements for non-EEA migrants in November been made and is ready for collection by the applicant 2008. or has been dispatched to the applicant. The Home Office publishes immigration statistics quarterly including statistics for Tier 2 of the points-based system. You can find these at the following website: Ian Paisley: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what plans she has to reduce the https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/user-guide-to- home-office-immigration-statistics--9 cost of a UK visa to bring it into line with the cost of a Schengen Visa. [169029] Since 2008, we have issued work permits to UK-based employers who require them to employ Bulgarian and Romanian workers only. Mr Harper: We review the cost of UK visas annually and set fees that strike a balance between the cost of Entry Clearances: Married People processing an application, the importance of attracting certain groups of migrants to the UK in line with wider Greg Mulholland: To ask the Secretary of State for Government objectives, and the value of a successful the Home Department what developments there have application to the migrant. been on the proposal to introduce the minimum 645W Written Answers15 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 646W income requirement for UK residents with non-EU Police Complaints Commission from (a) South spouses since the postponement of its implementation. Yorkshire Police and (b) Norman Bettison relating to [168563] the Hillsborough disaster is complete. [170395]

Mr Harper: A minimum income threshold for sponsoring Damian Green [holding answer 14 October 2013]: We a spouse or partner and dependent children of non- currently believe that the evidence provided by South European Economic Area nationality to settle in the Yorkshire police and Norman Bettison has been given UK under the family Immigration Rules was announced in good faith and therefore represents all the evidence on 11 June 2012 and implemented, as planned, on that has been found so far. South Yorkshire police is 9 July 2012. Since 5 July 2013 High Court judgment in under an ongoing duty to continue its searches and MM and Others, against which the Home Office is alert the Independent Police Complaints Commission appealing, applications have been put on hold where to any further material found. grounds relating to the income threshold would be the sole basis for refusal. They will remain on hold until the HM Inspectorate of Constabulary legal challenge has been finally determined by the courts. Nick de Bois: To ask the Secretary of State for the Firearms: Seized Articles Home Department what estimate she has made of the cost to the public purse of the ceremonial uniform Andrew Stephenson: To ask the Secretary of State for worn by HM Chief Inspector of Constabulary; and if the Home Department how many illegal firearms were she will make a statement. [170251] seized upon arrival in the UK in each of the last three years. [166334] Damian Green [holding answer 14 October 2013]: HM chief inspector of constabulary Tom Winsor’s Mr Harper: In 2012-13, 462 illegal firearms were uniform has incurred no costs to the public purse. seized. This figure does not include imitation firearms seized. Nick de Bois: To ask the Secretary of State for the The mis-recording of some firearms as offensive weapons Home Department what representations she has in 2010-11 and 2011-12 means data for this time period received on HM Chief Inspector of Constabulary’s is not of sufficient quality to be reliable, therefore this decision to wear ceremonial uniform at public has not been provided. engagements; and if she will make a statement. Data caveats: [170321] The figures quoted are management information which are subject to internal quality checks and may be subject to change. Damian Green [holding answer 10 October 2013]: The post of HM chief inspector of constabulary has a Hillsborough Independent Panel ceremonial uniform associated with the appointment. This is not a police uniform. It is for the chief inspector Steve Rotheram: To ask the Secretary of State for the to decide the public engagements at which he wears the Home Department if she will publish the list held by uniform to which he is entitled. her Department of individuals and organisations that failed to comply with information requests by the Immigration Hillsborough Independent Panel; and what steps is she is taking to ensure all information requested by (a) the Mr Andrew Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for IPCC and (b) the Jon Stoddart investigations, is the Home Department how many requests to exercise released. [170088] her discretion in granting leave to remain on compassionate grounds she has received since May Damian Green [holding answer 10 October 2013]: 2010; and how many individuals have been granted The Hillsborough Independent Panel was independent exceptional leave to remain as a result. [170227] of Government. Its report, published on 12 September 2012, made clear that two organisations failed to comply Mr Harper: 48,511 applications for leave to remain with requests for information by the Hillsborough outside the rules on compassionate grounds were received Independent Panel and the details of these organisations between 1 May 2010 and 30 September 2013, of which are set out in Appendix 2 of the Panel’s report. All 15,692 have been granted leave to remain on that basis. Government material was made available to the Panel Exceptional leave to remain was abolished on 1 April in full and unredacted form. I know that Bishop James 2003. Jones would be happy to meet the hon. Member to discuss this issue in more detail and I would hope that Immigration: Appeals the hon. Member will take up that invitation. I am satisfied that the Independent Police Complaints Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for the Commission and Operation Resolve (Jon Stoddart Home Department if she will list the five countries investigation) have sufficient powers at their disposal to whose citizens have the highest allowed appeals rate access any relevant information which is related to the with the percentage of allowed appeals for each Hillsborough disaster. country; and if she will break down that percentage by gender of the applicant. [168164] Steve Rotheram: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what assurances she has received on Mr Harper [holding answer 9 September 2013]: The whether all evidence presented to the Independent requested figures are shown in the following tables: 647W Written Answers15 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 648W

Table 1: Top 5 highest allowed appeal rates by nationality—in-country appeals Overall Male Female Volume of Volume of Volume of Nationality appeals Allowed (%) appeals Allowed (%) appeals Allowed (%)

New Zealand 18 100 8 100 10 100 Cyprus 3 100 3 100 — — Turkish controlled area of Cyprus 3 100 3 100 — — Bhutan 2 100 1 100 1 100 Christmas Island 2 100 — — 2 100

Table 2: Top 5 highest allowed appeal rates by nationality for out of country appeals Overall Male Female Volume of Volume of Volume of Nationality appeals Allowed (%) appeals Allowed (%) appeals Allowed (%)

Barbados 3 100 3 100 — — Cyprus 2 100 1 100 1 100 Equatorial Guinea 2 100 1 100 1 100 Tajikistan 2 100 — — 2 100 Maldives 1 100 — — 1 100 Notes: 1. All figures quoted have been derived from management information and are therefore provisional and subject to change. This information has not been quality assured under National Statistics protocols. 2. The data relate to appeal outcomes between April 2012 and March 2013. 3. The ‘Allowed’ rate has been calculated based on the proportion of allowed cases over the total number of cases allowed and dismissed cases during the same period. 4. Figures relate to main applicants only. 5. The data relate to First Tier Appeal Outcomes only.

In addition, the following tables provide the highest volume nationalities and their respective allowed rates for the same period.

Table 3: Top 5 highest volume nationalities for in-country appeals Overall Male Female Other Volume of Volume of Volume of Volume of Nationality appeals Allowed (%) appeals Allowed (%) appeals Allowed (%) appeals Allowed (%)

Pakistan 5,630 35 4,206 35 1,423 35 1 0 Nigeria 3,475 32 1,960 31 1,511 32 4 0 India 3,297 36 2,231 35 1,065 39 1 0 Bangladesh 1,910 38 1,551 36 358 47 1 0 Sri Lanka 1,727 47 1,309 45 418 52 — —

Table 4: Top 5 highest volume nationalities for out of country appeals Overall Male Female Other Volume of Volume of Volume of Volume of Nationality appeals Allowed (%) appeals Allowed (%) appeals Allowed (%) appeals Allowed (%)

Pakistan 12,099 44 6,921 39 5,178 50 — — India 3,247 50 1,787 48 1,460 52 — — Nigeria 3,011 28 1,459 24 1,552 32 — — Bangladesh 2,708 49 1,580 44 1,127 54 1 0 Iran 1,120 41 432 39 688 42 — — Notes: 1. All figures quoted have been derived from management information and are therefore provisional and subject to change. This information has not been quality assured under National Statistics protocols. 2. The data relate to appeal outcomes between April 2012 and March 2013. 3. The ‘Allowed’ rate has been calculated based on the proportion of allowed cases over the total number of cases allowed and dismissed cases during the same period. 4. Figures relate to main applicants only. 5. The data relate to First Tier Appeal Outcomes only.

Immigration: Public Consultation Mr Harper: The Home Office has recently concluded a public consultation on measures to better regulate migrant access to the NHS and is now considering carefully the responses received. A consultation report, Fiona Mactaggart: To ask the Secretary of State for which will be published shortly, will include statistical the Home Department how many responses her information on the profile of respondents, including the Department’s recent consultation on health care for total number of responses received and the number of migrants received; and how many such responses were responses from the health sector. from practitioners and managers in the NHS or related bodies. [168955] 649W Written Answers15 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 650W

Marriage: Fraud Offences against Children

Chris Bryant: To ask the Secretary of State for the Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many reports of suspicious Home Department (1) if she will place in the Library marriages taking place she received under Section 24 of her Department’s full Independent Review of all the Immigration and Asylum Act 1999 in (a) 2010, (b) information received by her Department about 2011, (c) 2012 and (d) 2013 to date. [167016] organised child sex abuse from 1979 to 1999; and if she will make a statement; [167861] Mr Harper [holding answer 2 September 2013]: (2) if she will place in the Library all internal (a) Section 24 of the Immigration and Asylum Act 1999 emails and (b) correspondence sent and received from places a duty on registrars to notify the Home Office if (i) her, (ii) her private office and (iii) the permanent they have reasonable grounds to suspect that a marriage secretary concerning her Department’s independent is one of convenience. Submission of a Section 24 review of all Home Office files received about report does not indicate that an offence has been committed; organised child sex abuse from 1979 to 1999. [167977] rather it reflects the suspicions of the Registrar. The following table shows the number of Section 24 reports Damian Green [holding answer 6 September 2013]: received in each of the last three full years for which we Through the publication of the terms of reference and have data. the executive summaries of both the interim and final report the permanent secretary of the Home Office has Section 24 reports received made available all the relevant findings and recommendations from this review. 2010 934 The permanent secretary has accepted all the 2011 1,741 recommendations from the independent reviewer and 2012 1,891 the Department has implemented all of them. Note: All figures quoted have been derived from management information Mr Sheerman: To ask the Secretary of State for the and are therefore provisional and subject to change. This information has not been quality assured under National Statistics protocols. Home Department what estimate her Department has made of the (a) number of false accusations of child Members: Correspondence sex offences made each year and (b) amount of police time consequently not spent pursuing genuine cases. [169974] Sir John Stanley: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department when she will reply to the letters Damian Green: The Home Office police recorded sent to her on 19 July, 9 August, 29 August and crime data do not record this information. 9 September 2013 by the right hon. Member for Tonbridge and Malling regarding the care of Ms Rene Passports: Scotland Chung. [169650] Cathy Jamieson: To ask the Secretary of State for the Mr Harper [holding answer 9 September 2013]: The Home Department how many passport applications Secretary of State for the Home Department, my right were made by residents in Kilmarnock and Loudoun hon. Friend the Member for Maidenhead (Mrs May), constituency in respect of people (a) under the age of wrote to the right hon. Member on 18 September 2013. 16 years and (b) over the age of 16 years in each of the last five years for which figures are available. [166872] Sir Gerald Kaufman: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department when she intends to reply to the Mr Harper [holding answer 2 September 2013]: Her letter to her dated 2 September 2013 from the right Majesty’s Passport Office issued 32,324 passports in the hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton with regard to period 2008 to 2012 to applicants whose delivery address MrIAbu. [170629] postcode matched the postcodes for the Kilmarnock and Loudoun constituency. The breakdown is in the Mr Harper: I wrote to the right hon. Member on following table: 8 October 2013. Passports Issued to Passports Issued to Total number of applicants aged applicants aged 16 passports issued for Narendra Modi under 16 and over 16 all age ranges

2008 4,946 1,846 6,792 Mr Godsiff: To ask the Secretary of State for the 2009 4,523 1,657 6,180 Home Department whether she plans to reinstate the 2010 4,534 1,847 6,381 ban on Gujarat’s Chief Minister, Narendra Modi, 2011 4,404 1,846 6,250 entering the UK. [169730] 2012 4,874 1,847 6,721 Mr Harper: It is the general policy of the Home Office not to disclose, to a third party personal information Police about another person’s immigration status unless there is a substantial public interest in doing so. This is Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for the because the Home Office has obligations in law to Home Department how many members of the protect this information. Any visa application from Association of Chief Police Officers are (a) subject to Mr Modi would be considered in accordance with the misconduct inquiries and (b) on long-term sick leave. Immigration Rules. [169757] 651W Written Answers15 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 652W

Damian Green: The Home Office does not collect commissioners on ongoing mutual aid to the Police data on the number of members of the Association of Service of Northern Ireland by other police forces. Chief Police Officers subject to misconduct inquiries. [170094] There were no members of the Association of Chief Police Officers on long-term certified sickness absence Damian Green [holding answer 10 October 2013]: as at 31 March 2013 (most recent data). The Home Office, with the support of the Department of Justice for Northern Ireland, Northern Ireland Office Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for the and Scottish Government have initiated a review of Home Department how many police officers there are mutual aid arrangements across the UK including to in each of the 43 forces as of 1 September 2013; and Northern Ireland. Key stakeholders including police how many such officers (a) have been arrested in their and crime commissioners and chief officers are being career, (b) are currently subject to misconduct consulted. inquiries and (c) are on long-term sick leave. [169758] Police: Dismissal Damian Green: Data on the number of police officers in each of the 43 police force areas, as at 31 March 2013 Mr Raab: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home (most recent data), is provided in the table. Department what progress she has made on the The Home Office does not collect data on the number implementation of the register of dismissed police of officers who have been arrested during their career or officers; and when such a register will be published. those that are currently subject to misconduct inquiries. [170332] The table also includes data on the number of police officers on long-term certified sickness absence by police Damian Green [holding answer 10 October 2013]: force area, as at 31 March 2013 (most recent data). The College of Policing is leading work on the development of a national register of officers struck off from the Total number of police officers1, 2 and police officers on long-term certified sickness absence3, 4, 5, by police force area, as at 31 March 2013 police. This includes considering exactly what form a Number register should take and how best to publish it. We will Long-term certified provide more information about the timing of publication Police force area Police officers sickness absence for the register later this year.

Avon and Somerset 2,873 51 Bedfordshire 1,092 20 Redundancy Cambridgeshire 1,384 13 Cheshire 2,013 28 Jackie Doyle-Price: To ask the Secretary of State for Cleveland 1,463 — the Home Department how many staff were made Cumbria 1,121 19 redundant from non-departmental public bodies Derbyshire 1,827 20 accountable to her Department in (a) 2010-11, (b) Devon and Cornwall 3,082 27 2011-12 and (c) 2012-13; and how many redundancy Dorset 1,301 18 payments were made in lieu of notice. [170353] Durham 1,362 25 Dyfed-Powys 1,112 12 James Brokenshire: Home Office non-departmental Essex 3,311 78 public bodies have made 290 staff redundant in the last Gloucestershire 1,198 10 three years, of which 168 received payments in lieu of Greater Manchester 7,202 157 notice. The number of staff broken down by year is as follows: Police Service of Northern Ireland Number Mr Hanson: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what assessment she has made of 2010-11 173 the total cost of mutual aid provided to the Police 2011-12 55 Service of Northern Ireland by (a) her Department 2012-13 62 and (b) other police forces for the policing of the G8 Summit in June 2013. [170093] Jackie Doyle-Price: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many staff in her Damian Green [holding answer 10 October 2013]: Department were made redundant in (a) 2010-11, (b) The Home Office has not yet received deployment 2011-12 and (c) 2012-13; and how many such staff claims from all forces in England and Wales that provided received payments in lieu of notice. [170371] mutual aid for the 2013 G8 summit. However, we estimate these will total approximately £9.7 million. Costs relating James Brokenshire: The Home Office has made 56 to the training of English and Welsh police officers in staff compulsorily redundant in the last three years, of advance of this deployment total £2.9 million. these 14 were paid compensation in lieu of notice. The Mutual aid costs for the 2013 G8 summit relating to number of staff broken down by year is as follows: Police Scotland, the British Transport Police and the Ministry of Defence Police are not held by the Department. Number

2010-11 0 Mr Hanson: To ask the Secretary of State for the 2011-12 27 Home Department what recent discussions she has had 2012-13 29 with (a) ACPO and (b) police and crime 653W Written Answers15 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 654W

Suicide: Wrexham Wood immigration removal centre that have previously been or will in the future be produced by Serco are Ian Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for the made available to the public; [170514] Home Department how many cases of suicide have (2) if her Department will investigate allegations of occurred in Wrexham in the last five years for which sexual assault at Yarl’s Wood immigration removal records are available. [171016] centre; [170515] (3) what procedures are in place to (a) ensure Mr Hurd: I have been asked to reply on behalf of the women detained for immigration purposes are Cabinet Office. protected from sexual assault and harassment and (b) The information requested falls within the responsibility facilitate immigration detainees to report incidences of of the UK Statistics Authority. I have asked the authority sexual assault and harassment on the immigration to reply. detention estate; [170516] Letter from Caron Walker, dated October 2013: (4) what assessment she has made of the suitability In the absence of the Director General for the Office for of detaining women for immigration purposes National Statistics, I have been asked to reply to your recent following the allegations of sexual assault at Yarl’s question asking the Secretary of State for the Home Department Wood immigration removal centre. [170517] how many cases of suicide have occurred in Wrexham in the last five years for which records are available. [171016] Mr Harper: Detention plays a key role in the maintenance Table 1 provides the number of deaths where the underlying of an effective immigration control. We are committed cause was suicide, for people aged 15 and over, in Wrexham to ensuring that ail detained persons are held safely and Unitary Authority, for deaths registered between 2008 and 2012 that they are treated with dignity and respect. This (the latest year available). applies equally to women and men. The allegations The Office for National Statistics routinely report suicide relating to Yarl’s Wood do not alter that position. statistics based on when a death was registered, rather than when it occurred. As suicides are certified by a coroner following an Bedfordshire police are investigating the allegations inquest, there can be a considerable delay between when a death is that have been made and Home Office Immigration registered and when it occurred. Enforcement is offering full assistance to that investigation. Figures for suicides in the United Kingdom, England, Wales Detainee custody officers working in immigration removal and regions of England are published annually on the ONS centres (IRC) undergo thorough security checks and website and are available from 1981 onwards. The latest statistical complete extensive training before they are certificated bulletin also includes analysis of the impact of registration delays to work with detainees. There are strict rules governing on UK suicide statistics: interaction with detainees. Any member of staff who www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/subnational-health4/suicides-in-the- contravenes any of the rules governing interaction, united-kingdom/index.html whether inside or outside centres, will face disciplinary Table 1. Number of deaths where the underlying cause was suicide, Wrexham action, which may lead to dismissal. The use of CCTV unitary authority, deaths registered between 2008 and 20121, 2, 3, 4 cameras in the majority of public areas in IRCs and in Registration year Suicides (number) all vans used for escorting detainees provides an additional 2008 18 safeguard. 2009 13 A formal complaints system operates in all IRCs and 2010 14 all detainees are advised how to complain. Detainees 2011 14 may complain in confidence to members of the Independent 2012 8 Monitoring Board appointed at each centre. In addition, 1 Suicide is defined using the International Classification of Diseases, Tenth detainees have access to mobile phones and the internet Revision (ICD-10) codes X60-X84 (Intentional self-harm) and YI0-Y34 (Events and are therefore able to contact the police direct to of undetermined intent). 2 Figures are for people aged 15 and over. report an allegation of sexual assault or harassment. 3 Figures are for people usually resident in Wrexham unitary authority, based All serious misconduct allegations are passed by the on boundaries as at August 2013. 4 Figures are for deaths registered, rather than deaths occurring between 2008 Professional Standards Unit of the Home Office to the and 2012. Due to the length of time it takes to hold an inquest it can take appropriate authorities, such as the police or other months for a suicide to be registered in England and Wales. Further information oversight bodies, where appropriate. The police will is available on the ONS website: www.ons-gov.uk/ons/rel/subnational-health4/suicides-in-the-united-kingdom/ take forward their own investigations separately to but 2011/stb-suicide-bulletin.html#tab-Impact-of-registration-delays-on-suicide- in parallel with Home Office internal inquiries. Detainees statistics who are not satisfied with the way in which their complaint Xiu Xing Wang has been handled may ask for it to be reviewed by the independent prisons and probation ombudsman. Andrew Gwynne: To ask the Secretary of State for the Reports relating to allegations made by individuals Home Department when Xiu Xing Wang, Home Office contain personal information and are not published in reference W1089389 will expect to receive order to comply with the requirements of the Data consideration of his submissions of 8 April 2011 and 1 Protection Act 1998. October 2012. [167774]

Mr Harper: I wrote to the hon. Member on 17 September SCOTLAND 2013 about this case. Dover House Yarl’s Wood Immigration Removal Centre Margaret Curran: To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland with reference to the answer of 19 December Sarah Teather: To ask the Secretary of State for the 2012, Official Report, column 774W, on Dover House, Home Department (1) if she will ensure that any when he expects the costs to be reported in the Cabinet reports into allegations of sexual assault at Yarl’s Office annual accounts. [170964] 655W Written Answers15 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 656W

Mr Alistair Carmichael: The Cabinet Office’s annual a small organisation, and to preserve staff confidentiality accounts are laid before Parliament before the summer the proportion of disabled staff receiving each level has recess immediately following the end of the year to not been provided. which they relate. TSol, AGO and HMCPSI staff are measured against four levels of assessment: Performance Appraisal A—Highly Successful Mrs Lewell-Buck: To ask the Secretary of State for B—Successful Scotland what proportion of (a) disabled and (b) all C—Improvement Needed other staff employed by his Department received each D—Poor Performance level of performance rating in their end of year Of those staff who have declared themselves as disabled, performance assessment for 2012-13. [170462] 23.4% received a performance rating of ‘A’ in their end of year performance assessment for 2012-13. 60% received Mr Alistair Carmichael: The Scotland Office does a rating of ‘B’, 8.5% received a rating of ‘C’ and 0% not employ staff directly. All staff that join the Office received a ‘D’ rating. Final ratings have yet to be received do so on an assignment, secondment or loan agreement for 8.1% of those who have declared themselves as from other Government bodies, but principally from disabled. the Scottish Government or the Ministry of Justice. The comparative figures for other staff are 29% received The Scotland Office is not responsible for end of year a rating of ‘A’, 64% received a rating of ‘B’ 1% received performance payments and does not hold information a rating of ‘C’ and 0.1% received a rating of ‘D’. Final centrally on these matters. ratings have yet to be received by 5.9% of these staff. The performance assessment ratings achieved in 2012/13 by (a) disabled and (b) all other staff employed by the ATTORNEY-GENERAL Crown Prosecution Service are shown in the following table. Bosnia and Herzegovina Percentage Nicholas Soames: To ask the Attorney-General with Data not reference to the recent decision by the Dutch Supreme Not available Court to hold the Dutch Government to account for achieved Achieved Exceeded centrally the actions of its peacekeepers at Srebrenica, what Declared 1.9 52.4 7.5 38.2 assessment he has made of the implications of that disabled decision for the participation of members of HM All other 0.7 54.7 10.9 33.7 Forces deployed in support of UN missions. [170765] staff All CPS 0.7 54.6 10.7 34.0 The Solicitor-General: By long-standing convention, observed by successive administrations and embodied Unfortunately, data relating to disabled and all other in the Ministerial Code, the fact that the Law Officers staff is not fully available centrally and to collate a more may or may not have advised or have been requested to complete data set would be at disproportionate cost. advise on a particular issue, and the content of any These issues are now resolved on the upgraded 2013-14 advice, is not disclosed outside government. system which means all staff will have a performance and development rating in the future. Courts: Clothing Social Services Mr Hollobone: To ask the Attorney-General what the policy of the Crown Prosecution Service is on the Emily Thornberry: To ask the Attorney-General with wearing of face coverings in court by (a) defendants, what proportion of local government social services (b) counsel, (c) judges and (d) jurors. [170891] departments the Crown Prosecution Service has protocol agreements for the disclosure of third-party The Solicitor-General: The Crown Prosecution Service evidence. [170387] has no policy in this area. Decisions as to whether or not face coverings should be worn in court are matters The Solicitor-General: The Crown Prosecution Service for magistrates or judges who are in the best position to (CPS) does not keep central records as to the number of regulate proceedings in their own court. Detailed guidance local protocols it has in place with local authority social is set out in Chapter 3 of The Equal Treatment Bench service departments over the disclosure of third party Book (2007) issued by the Judicial Studies Board. material. Performance Appraisal On a national level, however, the CPS is taking forward work to update and refresh the third party protocol Mrs Lewell-Buck: To ask the Attorney-General what signed in 2003 on the exchange of information in the proportion of (a) disabled and (b) all other staff investigation and prosecution of child abuse cases. This employed by the Law Officers’ Departments received is due to be published shortly. each level of performance rating in their end of year Witnesses performance assessment for 2012-13. [170472] The Solicitor-General: In 2012-13, 21.8% of all SFO Emily Thornberry: To ask the Attorney-General (1) staff received ’outstanding’ in their performance rating, what proportion of prosecution witnesses attended 76.7% received ’effective’ and 1.5% received either court (a) one time and (b) at all in each year since ’improvement required’ or ’unsatisfactory’. The SFO is 2007; [170388] 657W Written Answers15 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 658W

(2) what proportion of prosecution witnesses in each Department makes available for community internet Crown Prosecution Service area attended court (a) on television broadcasting. [170242] time and (b) at all in each year since 2007. [170389] Mr Vaizey: DCMS does not provide any funding for The Solicitor-General: The Crown Prosecution Service community internet television broadcasting. (CPS) does not maintain data which shows the number Flags of witnesses who attended court on time or on only one occasion. This information could only be obtained by examining all of the files prosecuted by the CPS for Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for contested proceedings, which would incur disproportionate Culture, Media and Sport if, following the last State cost. Opening of Parliament where the flagpoles of Parliament Square stood empty as Her Majesty passed, The CPS does collect some limited data showing the her Department will liaise with the Earl Marshal and number of prosecution witnesses who were required to, Palace of Westminster authorities to ensure that this and attended court, in proceedings where a not guilty does not occur in the future. [170793] plea has been recorded on the case record held in the CPS Case Management System. In each year since 2007 Mrs Grant: The ceremonial arrangements for the to present the number and proportion of witnesses State Opening of Parliament are a matter for the Palace recorded as attending nationally are: of Westminster and the Earl Marshal. It would be for both the Palace of Westminster and the Earl Marshal to Required Actual Actual attendance attendance attendance (percentage) make a recommendation to this Department to have flags flown in Parliament Square for the State Opening 2007 408,528 357,479 87.5 of Parliament. 2008 430,085 387,908 90.2 2009 410,740 376,645 91.7 Performance Appraisal 2010 433,166 398,284 91.9 2011 406,340 373,289 91.9 Mrs Lewell-Buck: To ask the Secretary of State for 2012 378,661 349,000 92.2 Culture, Media and Sport what proportion of (a) 2013 264,556 241,774 91.4 disabled and (b) all other staff employed by her Department received each level of performance rating Similar data, prepared for the 13 areas of the CPS, is in their end of year performance assessment for contained in a table which has been deposited in the 2012-13. [170468] Library of the House. Mrs Grant: The following table sets out the percentage of employees, within each performance category, who CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT have declared a disability, and the percentage of all other staff in each performance category for the 2012-13 Broadcasting: Internet reporting year. The percentage of all other staff includes staff who have either explicitly declared that they do not David Morris: To ask the Secretary of State for have a disability, have chosen the ‘prefer not to say’ Culture, Media and Sport what funding her option, or have not responded to the question at all.

Percentage Excellent Strong Good Less successful Unsuccessful

Percentage of employees who have declared a 304250 disability in each performance rating Percentage of all other staff employed in each 97 100 96 75 0 performance rating

Tourism: India is taking to ensure that women who worked in munitions factories in World War Two receive official Jim Shannon: To ask the Secretary of State for individual recognition. [170106] Culture, Media and Sport what steps she is taking to encourage tourism from India to the UK. [170733] Michael Fallon: I have been asked to reply on behalf Mrs Grant: Through VisitBritain, we have created the of the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills UK’s biggest ever international tourism campaign, the as this falls into my area of responsibility. GREAT campaign, to take advantage of Britain’s increased The Government fully appreciates the valiant efforts international profile following the London 2012 Olympic of all men and women who worked in factories producing and Paralympic Games. The Government has committed vital equipment for the armed forces. Their work made £30 million to continue the campaign in 2013-14 of a real contribution to winning the second world war. which £2.7 million will be specifically targeted at BIS has looked in detail at the possibility of formal encouraging tourism from India. recognition of the enormous contribution made by World War II: Medals those who manufactured munitions during the War. It was concluded that, given the lack of records and the Karen Lumley: To ask the Secretary of State for consequent difficulties in verifying any entitlement, it Culture, Media and Sport what steps her Department would not be practical to find a way to recognise the 659W Written Answers15 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 660W contributions of individual workers, but we continue to Recent developments in these specific systems have discuss with the All Party Parliamentary Group what meant that properly-equipped lorry drivers can now could be done to mark their contribution collectively. avoid low bridges and narrow lanes, saving time, fuel and money as well as reducing the impact on local communities. TRANSPORT Level Crossings Car Tax Mr Love: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport Mr Nigel Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for whether he has power to review decisions of (a) Transport what the total cost to the Driver and Vehicle Network Rail and (b) the Rail Safety and Standards Licensing Agency is of processing a payment for a Board on the permanent closure of level crossings; and 12 months tax disc by credit card. [170704] if he will make a statement. [170848]

Mr Goodwill: The cost to the Driver and Vehicle Stephen Hammond: The Secretary of State has no Licensing Agency for processing a credit card payment powers to review the decisions of Network Rail on the for vehicle excise duty ranges from £1.63 to £5.78 per permanent closure of level crossings. transaction. The RSSB (formerly the Rail Standards and Safety The cost varies depending on the type of card used, Board) does not make such decisions but may provide the value of the transaction and the method of the supporting evidence following investigations into specific transaction, for example whether it is online or face to crossings which will assist Network Rail in making face. those decisions. The agency’s £2.50 charge is set to recover the average cost of processing the credit card transactions. Marchwood Military Port

Channel Tunnel Railway Line Mr Denham: To ask the Secretary of State for Charlie Elphicke: To ask the Secretary of State for transport what assessment he has made of the potential Transport what his policy is on the future of the High effect of the sale of the Sea Mounting Centre at Speed 1 rail service to Deal, Kent; and if he will make a Marchwood on commercial activities at the port of Southampton. [170989] statement. [170884] Stephen Hammond: We are currently finalising the Stephen Hammond: None. It is for the Port to make specification of all services that will operate under its own commercial assessment of any sale proposal. Direct Awards, including the High Speed 1 rail service to Deal. We plan to announce these specifications early Public Transport: Rural Areas next year. Mr Nigel Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for Large Goods Vehicles Transport what steps he is taking to increase access to public transport in rural areas. [170705] Jessica Lee: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if his Department will review (a) its policy Stephen Hammond: The Government recognises that of requiring HGV drivers to avoid areas with bridge the provision of public transport in rural areas is a restrictions of 7.5 tons and (b) the use of satellite challenge for all of us. We consider local authorities navigation systems on such routes. [170238] working with the local community and voluntary sector Mr Goodwill: The Department for Transport has no are best placed to identify local solutions and spending plans to (a) review the policy of requiring heavy goods priorities. We are reforming the subsidy arrangements vehicle drivers to avoid areas with bridge restrictions of for local bus services to allow the authorities control of 7.5 tonnes or (b) the use of satellite navigation systems where the funding provided by Government is spent. on such routes. The Government supports access to public transport, The Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 gives powers including that in rural areas, through the Bus Service to highway authorities to apply weight limits on parts Operators Grant (BSOG). In the June 2013 spending of the local road network which they manage, where review we confirmed that spending on BSOG will be they deem it to be appropriate. It is a legitimate local protected until 2015-16 despite tough economic times. policy to ban heavy goods vehicles from using weak In ‘Green Light for Better Buses’ (2012) we set out bridges, but there are legal considerations related to proposals for reforms to improve local bus subsidy maintaining access to premises. These may well be arrangements and regulations in England. A key part of relevant to the consideration of area-wide prohibitions. these proposals is paying some BSOG directly to local Neither the Department nor individual local authorities authorities, rather than operators, thus giving communities have any direct power over the routing of satellite more control over how money is spent. The change to navigation devices, such devices should always be treated pay BSOG to local authority for their supported services as advisory, and it is for the motorists to determine the outside London will come into force from 1 January best route for their journey. We are aware that some 2014. The funding will be ring-fenced until the end of satellite navigation system manufacturers produce special 2016-17. devices for heavy goods vehicles to provide them with We are supporting access to public transport in rural routing information appropriate to their vehicle, including areas via a number of the successful bids to the £600 million warning them about narrow roads and low bridges. Local Sustainable Transport Fund (LSTF). We have 661W Written Answers15 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 662W provided £20 million to help authorities in rural areas Rescue Services: Liverpool establish more community transport schemes. We also support Community Rail schemes the majority of which Mr Marsden: To ask the Secretary of State for serve rural areas. Transport what assessment he has made of the Railways: Fares coverage by emergency towing vessels of the area served by the Liverpool Coastguard MRCC; and how Mary Creagh: To ask the Secretary of State for this has varied in the last two years. [170961] Transport how many and what proportion of rail passengers will be helped by his Department’s decision Stephen Hammond: There has never been a to cap rail fare increases at 6.1 per cent. [171021] Government-funded emergency towing vessel stationed off the north-west of England. Stephen Hammond: Train operators are not required Ships requiring a towage service in this area have to submit to the Department a list of fares rises that routinely called upon the services of commercially available they would have sought to implement under the flex tugs. The Maritime and Coastguard Agency (MCA) is policy that existed prior to the publication of the Fares not aware of any incidences of any failure in delivering and Ticketing Review, so a direct comparison is not the services required when needed. available. The number of tugs immediately available to ships We would not expect that the majority of passengers tend to vary on a day-to-day basis as dictated by the would have seen fares rises more than 2% above the commercial market. The MCA has no evidence to show regulated cap notwithstanding this change. However, that overall availability has decreased in the last two this policy will provide additional reassurance for all years. passengers that their fares will not be among those that would have seen the largest rises. Rescue Services WOMEN AND EQUALITIES Mr Marsden: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what assessment he has made of the effect of Members: Females his proposed changes to the Coastguard Service on the operations of local RNLI stations and volunteers; and Steve Rotheram: To ask the Minister for Women and if he will publish any such assessment. [170960] Equalities what steps he is taking to increase the Stephen Hammond: The programme to modernise number of women elected to Parliament. [900473] Her Majesty’s Coastguard focuses on the co-ordination of civilian maritime search and rescue and the management Mrs Grant: The 2010 general election saw a record of the Coastguard Rescue Service. The RNLI, like number of women candidates and there are now more Coastguard Rescue Teams, independent lifeboats, rescue female parliamentarians than at any other time. Following helicopters and other rescue facilities are not affected the cross-party 2010 Speaker’s Conference Report on by these changes. Parliamentary Representation, the Government is working with the parties and Parliament to encourage more Mr Marsden: To ask the Secretary of State for women to seek election. We have implemented provisions Transport what recent discussions (a) he and (b) in the Equality Act 2010 which enable political parties officials of his Department have had with the RNLI on to use positive action, should they wish to; extended the proposed coastguard station closures. [170962] ability to use women-only shortlists to 2030, and to reserve seats on electoral shortlists for those with particular Stephen Hammond: Maritime and Coastguard Agency under-represented characteristics; and secured commitment officials have bi-monthly meetings with the RNLI to from the three main parties to provide greater transparency discuss areas of mutual interest. These meetings include over candidate selection, through the collection and updates on progress of the Coastguard Modernisation publication of candidates’ diversity data. Programme. Rescue Services: Fylde Performance Appraisal

Mr Marsden: To ask the Secretary of State for Mrs Lewell-Buck: To ask the Minister for Women Transport what assessment he has made of the and Equalities what proportion of (a) disabled and adequacy of coastguard station coverage along the (b) all other staff employed by the Government Fylde coast in respect of the latest mortality figures Equalities Office received each level of performance available for the Fylde coast. [170963] rating in their end of year performance assessment for 2012-13. [170475] Stephen Hammond: There are no changes to either the ability of Her Majesty’s Coastguard to co-ordinate Mrs Grant: The following table sets out the percentage maritime search and rescue or the coverage or the of GEO employees, within each performance category, availability of the Coastguard Rescue Service along the who have declared a disability, and the percentage of all Fylde Coast, or the United Kingdom as a whole. other staff in each performance category for the 2012-13 The availability and coverage of all front line rescue reporting year. The percentage of all other staff includes resources including Coastguard Rescue Teams, lifeboats, staff who have either explicitly declared that they do not and rescue helicopters remain unaffected by the have a disability, have chosen the ‘prefer not to say’ modernisation of HM Coastguard. option, or have not responded to the question at all. 663W Written Answers15 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 664W

The recent closure of the tunnels and reduced access Percentage through the Rafah Crossing have compounded an already Must Exceeded Achieved improve precarious economic and humanitarian situation in Gaza. The UN has reported that fuel is available from Israel Percentage of employees who 0 100 0 but the cost is prohibitively high. Service providers have declared a disability in each performance rating including hospitals and the Gaza Power Plant are facing Percentage of all other staff 24 76 0 shortages. employed in each performance rating Mr Andrew Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development what representations she has made to her Israeli counterparts on increasing the flow of food, fuel and medicines into Gaza from Israel INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT through Kerem Shalom. [170380] Himalayas Mr Duncan: We remain deeply concerned about the Mr Ellwood: To ask the Secretary of State for precarious humanitarian situation in Gaza. The UK International Development if there are plans Government continues to engage with the Israeli authorities financially to support UK-based INGO initiatives that to encourage more steps towards the full lifting of support market-led initiatives for the Great Himalayan movement and access restrictions on Gaza. Trail. [170385] Mr Andrew Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Duncan: The Great Himalaya Trail programme’s International Development what assessment she has current phase will end in December 2013. The UK will made of the effects of Israel’s restrictions on continue supporting the tourism sector under DFID’s Palestinian fishing boats off Gaza on the (a) income existing Nepal Market Development Programme. If and (b) nutritional status of Palestinians. [170381] there are opportunities for implementing market-led initiatives, the UK will certainly call for proposals from Mr Duncan: Gazan fishermen are currently unable to all stakeholders including UK-based NGOs through a access the majority of their catch due to the six nautical competitive bidding process. mile fishing limit imposed by Israel. This is deeply concerning. More than 12,000 individuals earn their Pakistan living directly from the fishing industry and many others do so from related industries. The UN has reported that Andrew Stephenson: To ask the Secretary of State for long-term access restrictions on agricultural land and International Development (1) what assessment she has fishing areas have resulted in estimated economic losses made of progress in eradicating polio in Peshawar, of over $76 million. Pakistan; and if she will make a statement; [170457] (2) what assessment she has made of the role that the Performance Appraisal UK-based Pakistani diaspora in the UK can have in promoting polio vaccination campaigns in Pakistan. Mrs Lewell-Buck: To ask the Secretary of State for [170458] International Development what proportion of (a) disabled and (b) all other staff employed by her Justine Greening: Pakistan has reported a total of Department received each level of performance rating 40 polio cases in 2013, two of these in Peshawar. in their end of year performance assessment for We remain committed to working with the Governments 2012-13. [170465] of Pakistan, the World Health Organisation, the Global Polio Eradication Initiative and others to maintain the Mr Duncan: DFID currently uses a four box system progress of recent years and ultimately see the eradication for performance management purposes. Box one is the of polio from Pakistan. We urge the Pakistani diaspora highest performance rating which can be awarded. Those to support this work through activity such as Rotary in box four are most in need of improvement. International’s ’End Polio Now’ campaign. Percentage Palestinians Disability No disability

Box 4 1—2 Mr Andrew Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Box 3 38 32 International Development what assessment she has Box 2 51 48 made of the effects of the (a) demolition by Egypt of Box 1 8 18 the tunnels into Gaza and (b) reduced access through 1 Number too small to report publicly due to data protection legislation Rafah on the daily supplies of food, fuel, construction materials and medicines entering Gaza. [170268] Syria

Mr Duncan: The UK Government has long been Jim Shannon: To ask the Secretary of State for concerned about the humanitarian situation in Gaza International Development what support the UK is which has arisen due to the impact of the movement providing to Lebanon and Jordan to cope with the and access restrictions imposed by the Government of large numbers of refugees from Syria. [170758] Israel. I saw the impact first hand when I visited Gaza in April 2013. DFID continues to engage with the Justine Greening: The UK has allocated or is in the relevant authorities to encourage more steps towards final stages of allocating £153.5 million to support the lifting of the restrictions. refugees and host communities in Jordan and Lebanon. 665W Written Answers15 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 666W

This is providing food for over 130,000 people per within the fixed contract cost. Those moves are a very month, 44,000 medical consultations and an improved minor part of the wider contract and so no specific water supply for over 27,000 people. figure for their cost is available. We are very concerned about the impacts of the There have also been 24 relocations in our global refugee crisis on neighbouring countries. They have estate during the period 2009-13. Refurbishment and been extremely generous in hosting Syrian refugees, and removal costs relating to these moves could be identified we urge them to continue to show that generosity by only at disproportionate cost. welcoming those seeking safety from violence and keeping There will have been other smaller relocations in their borders open. overseas offices which will have been funded by the The UK is continuing to lead in the humanitarian respective embassy or high commission budget. To gather response and is calling on the international community details on these would also represent disproportionate to commit more humanitarian funding urgently and to cost. reduce the shortfall in the UN appeal for Syria and to (b) During the period 2009-13, The Foreign and fulfil funding pledges they have made to date. Commonwealth Office’s non-departmental public bodies completed the following office relocations: FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE British Council The British Council holds 250 commercial properties Buildings in 112 countries, predominantly leaseholds. The majority Mr Weir: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign are offices and centres either for teaching or for the and Commonwealth Affairs what assessment he has supervision of exams. The property holdings are kept made of the number of office relocations made by staff under active review to identify opportunities to secure of (a) his Department and (b) his Department’s financial savings, e.g. by exercising lease break opportunities non-departmental public bodies (i) within the original or from lease expiries as these arise. Any decisions on building and (ii) to other buildings in each year since relocation across the commercial estate are determined 2009-10; what the cost of (A) removals and (B) locally, on a range of criteria that includes business refurbishments related to such moves has been; and on needs, security issues and cost-effectiveness. Data on how many occasions offices refurbished by his the number and costs of relocation across the whole Department in that period have been used by his global estate could be gathered only at disproportionate Department’s staff for less than four years before a cost. further move. [169463] In 2012 the British Council undertook a full review of its UK estate to reduce costs in the medium and long-term, Mr Lidington: The information is as follows: leading to relocations of its offices in Belfast and Edinburgh (a) During the period 2009-13, The Foreign and to smaller, more cost-effective premises and the reduction Commonwealth Office (FCO) Facilities Management of space in the London and Manchester offices. In Client Unit completed the following number of UK London, two floors were let to a subtenant within the office relocations in London and Hanslope Park: government civil estate, the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence. The combined property costs for Number of moves Cost (£) these four projects were £9.09 million. In total the changes made to the UK estate in 2012 have delivered 2009-10 48 286,337 savings on occupancy costs of £3 million per year 2010-11 58 381,494 FCO Services 2011-12 41 332,106.61 2012-13 31 168,339.26 Between 2009-10 and 2012-13 FCO Services undertook Total 178 1,168,276.00 11 relocations for which they were charged, at a cost of £13,000. All of these moves took place at their Hanslope The FCO’s London estate comprises of four separate Park Site, in buildings which have been in continuous buildings. All of the relocations carried out during this use by FCO Services throughout that period. period were within their respective buildings or between buildings on the London estate, at an overall cost of Egypt £1,168,276. For Hanslope Park, there were three internal moves Mr Slaughter: To ask the Secretary of State for within a building at a cost of £10,371.18 and three Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether any UK moves between buildings at a cost of £51,445.55. This arms have been sent to Egypt (a) directly and (b) via sum includes the relocation of FCO staff working in another source since 30 July 2013. [169868] the Legalisation Unit in Norfolk House to Northgate House, Milton Keynes in February 2013. This move Michael Fallon: I have been asked to reply on behalf resulted in a rental saving to the FCO of £140,784. of the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills. Where the FCO has undertaken refurbishment in This Department only holds information about licences relation to these moves, the Department expects to granted and not about equipment actually supplied, occupy the space for at least four years. especially where that supply is from or through an The figures relate only to moves that have taken place overseas country. in the period that have attracted an additional cost to As per my answer of 9 September 2013, Official the FCO. No information has been supplied for the Report, column 638-9W, to the hon. Member for moves that take place as part of the fixed contract cost Birmingham, Hall Green (Mr Godsiff), the Government of the facilities management contract. The FM contract reviewed all extant licences for military-rated goods for allows for moves of five people or less to be delivered Egypt in light of recent events in that country. As a 667W Written Answers15 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 668W result of that review we suspended all licences for supply Mr Lidington: The Secretary of State for Foreign and of military-rated goods to the Egyptian Army, Air Commonwealth Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member Force, Internal Security Forces and Ministry of the for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague), discussed the detention Interior. In total 48 licences were suspended on 28 August of six British nationals who were onboard the Greenpeace 2013. No licences for these end-users have been granted vessel, the ‘Arctic Sunrise’, with Russia’s Foreign Minister since that date. on 25 September and subsequently wrote to him on 172 licences for military-rated goods remain extant 6 October. In addition, on 3 October, the Secretary of for Egypt. We do not have information showing what State met Greenpeace executive director, John Sauven. goods may have been supplied under any of these The Secretary of State continues to follow the case very licences since 30 July 2013. closely. Senior Foreign and Commonwealth officials have also raised this case with Russia’s ambassador to Gibraltar the UK on 26 September and we have followed up with officials in Moscow. We will continue to provide full Jim Shannon: To ask the Secretary of State for consular assistance and monitor the case closely. Officials Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what steps he has are in regular contact with the families of the British taken to protect fishing rights in Gibraltar. [170744] nationals detained, including Mr Bryan’s.

Mr Lidington: In line with the 2006 Gibraltar Ms Harman: To ask the Secretary of State for Constitution, the Government of Gibraltar is responsible Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a for the laws of Gibraltar, including those regulating statement on the detention of British journalist Kieron fishing in British Gibraltar Territorial Waters (BGTW). Bryan. [171012] With regard to unlawful fishing in BGTW by Spanish Mr Lidington: The Secretary of State for Foreign and fishermen, the Government has consistently supported Commonwealth Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member efforts by the Government of Gibraltar to reach a local for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague), discussed the detention solution and is confident that they have a credible plan of six British nationals who were onboard the Greenpeace to do so. vessel, the ‘Arctic Sunrise’, with Russia’s Foreign Minister I also refer the hon. Member to my answer of on 25 September and subsequently wrote to him on 5 September 2013, Official Report, column 475W. 6 October. In addition, on 3 October, the Secretary of Kieron Bryan State met Greenpeace executive director, John Sauven. The Secretary of State continues to follow the case very closely. Senior Foreign and Commonwealth officials Ms Harman: To ask the Secretary of State for have also raised this case with Russia’s ambassador to Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will press the the UK on 26 September and we have followed up with Russian authorities to allow the family of detained officials in Moscow. We will continue to provide full British journalist Kieron Bryan to visit him in consular assistance and monitor the case closely. Officials detention; and if he will help Mr Bryan’s family to are in regular contact with the families of the British obtain the necessary visas. [170969] nationals detained, including Mr Bryan’s. Mr Lidington: Foreign and Commonwealth Office Ms Harman: To ask the Secretary of State for consular officials are in close contact with the families Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether he has of all British nationals who were aboard the Greenpeace made representations to the Russian authorities vessel the ‘Arctic Sunrise’. regarding the detention of British journalist Kieron Consular officials in Russia are also discussing family Bryan. [171013] visits with the Russian authorities and seeking answers as soon as possible. Officials will keep Mr Bryan’s Mr Lidington: The Secretary of State for Foreign and family updated on the process for visiting him and will Commonwealth Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member provide advice on visa applications. for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague), discussed the detention of six British nationals who were onboard the Greenpeace Ms Harman: To ask the Secretary of State for vessel, the ‘Arctic Sunrise’, with Russia’s Foreign Minister Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will press the on 25 September and subsequently wrote to him on Russian authorities to allow detained British journalist 6 October. In addition, on 3 October, the Secretary of Kieron Bryan a telephone call with his family. [171010] State met Greenpeace executive director, John Sauven. The Secretary of State continues to follow the case very Mr Lidington: Consular officials in Russia have raised closely. Senior Foreign and Commonwealth officials the importance of those British nationals detained aboard have also raised this case with Russia’s ambassador to the Arctic Sunrise being able to make calls to their the UK on 26 September and we have followed up with families. The Russian authorities have clarified the officials in Moscow. We will continue to provide full procedures for making a call in the detention facility in consular assistance and monitor the case closely. Officials Murmansk and we have explained these to Mr Bryan are in regular contact with the families of the British and the other British nationals detained. Consular officials nationals detained, including Mr Bryan’s. will continue to monitor this closely. Laos

Ms Harman: To ask the Secretary of State for Andrew Percy: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs when he last Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what steps he is raised the issue of the detention of British journalist taking with his Laotian counterpart to raise the cases Kieron Bryan; and with whom he raised that issue. of Seng-Aloun Phengphanti and Thongpaseuth [171011] Keuakoun. [170889] 669W Written Answers15 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 670W

Mr Swire: On the basis of information received from never rule out the possibility of sudden, unpredictable the Lao authorities during the EU-Laos Human Rights events. However, based on the information we have, Dialogue in 2012, we believe prisoners Thongpaseuth including observations from our embassy in Pyongyang, Keuakoun and Seng-Aloun Phengphanti were sentenced we assess that there is little chance of a North Korean to 20 years imprisonment on treason charges. The UK, Government collapse at present. as part of the EU delegation, raised their cases during Kim Jong Un appears to have consolidated power the EU-Laos Human Rights Dialogue in February since taking over leadership of the country from his 2013 and expressed concerns. The Lao authorities provided father Kim Jong il in 2011. There is no evidence of a no formal update on their custodial status. significant opposition movement to the North Korean Our recently re-opened embassy in Vientiane continues Government: North Korea imposes significant restrictions to raise individual cases with the Lao Government and on freedom of speech, association and movement and to urge Laos to adhere to its international human rights there are heavy penalties for political dissent. commitments. The consequences of any collapse of the North Korean Government would depend on the cause and nature of Libya the event. The UK maintains consular contingency plans for every country. Mr McCann: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what additional Performance Appraisal measures have been put in place by the EU to tackle illegal immigration from Libya since the fall of the Gadaffi regime. [170211] Mrs Lewell-Buck: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what proportion Mr Harper: I have been asked to reply on behalf of of (a) disabled and (b) all other staff employed by his the Home Department. Department received each level of performance rating in their end of year performance assessment for The political instability and poor security situation in 2012-13. [170460] Libya have made it extremely challenging to put in place additional measures to tackle the problem of Hugh Robertson: The Foreign and Commonwealth illegal immigration transiting its territory. Nonetheless, Office (FCO) takes seriously its obligations to collect the EU has taken steps to improve cooperation with diversity data as required by the Equality Act 2010. All Libya on migration issues since the fall of the Gadaffi staff have been asked to provide personal diversity data regime, with some success. to be held anonymously, and we continue to encourage In 2012, Libya signed an agreement in principle with increased declaration by staff. However, to date, the the EU authorising European Border Surveillance record is not complete enough to provide an accurate (EUROSUR) to act on its borders. EUROSUR is an picture of performance ratings for staff with a disability external border surveillance system for the Schengen and this information could be obtained only at area, which is planned to become operational in December. disproportionate cost. Furthermore, on 19 September 2013, it was announced Of the total number of staff appraisals completed in that an agreement had been reached between the European 2012-13 the percentage of the delegated grades receiving Commission, southern EU member states and Libya to each level of performance rating is as follows (rounded launch the Seahorse Mediterraneo project. The project to nearest whole number): envisages the establishment of a satellite-based communication network among the countries involved Percentage and the delivery of training to those working in the field of border management in Libya. Exceptional (the highest rating) 11 It is very clear that cooperation with Libya is vital if Effective 1 55 tragedies like the one seen in Lampedusa on 3 October Effective 2 30 are to be prevented. It is hoped that an improvement in Effective 3 4 the political and security circumstances in Libya will The FCO follows Cabinet Office guidance on enable increased cooperation, and the implementation performance and pay distributions for senior civil servant of further measures to prevent migrants from embarking (SCS) staff. This equates to the following percentage of on perilous journeys from Libya to the EU. SCS staff receiving each performance level: North Korea Percentage

Mr Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Performance box 1 (the highest 25 Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent rating) assessment he has made of (a) prospects for the Performance box 2 65 collapse of the North Korean Government and (b) the Performance box 3 10 potential consequences of the collapse of the North Korean Government; and what plans his Department In addition a maximum of 25% of SCS staff may has produced to respond to any such consequences. receive a one-off annual performance related payment [170222] for exceptional work. The information above relates to UK-based staff Mr Swire: North Korea’s system of government is only. Annual appraisal information for locally engaged opaque. As such, it is difficult to make a comprehensive staff is held at individual overseas posts and could be assessment of the stability of the regime and we can obtained only at disproportionate cost. 671W Written Answers15 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 672W

Syria WORK AND PENSIONS Disability Living Allowance Ms Ritchie: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what progress he has made in establishing a substantial and co-ordinated Katy Clark: To ask the Secretary of State for Work resettlement programme in the UK for Syrian refugees; and Pensions what proportion of applications for and what recent discussions he has had with other EU disability living allowance were rejected in each month member states on this matter. [169996] from May 2013 to September 2013. [170446]

Mr Harper: I have been asked to reply on behalf of Mike Penning: The proportion of disability living the Home Department. allowance (DLA) new claim applications that have been rejected are shown in the following table: The Government shares the deep concerns of other EU member states regarding the continuing humanitarian Table (a): DLA new claims rejected crisis in Syria. But the Government has no current Percentage rejected plans to resettle Syrian refugees. We continue to believe April 2013 51.9 that the EU’s immediate priority should be to provide May 2013 49.2 humanitarian assistance to displaced people in partnership June 2013 49.9 with neighbouring countries and UN High Commissioner July 2013 46.5 for Refugees. August 2013 41.6 The UK has now increased its pledge for the Syrian September 2013 35.6 relief effort to £500 million. This represents the UK’s Total 47.7 largest ever response to a humanitarian crisis. Source: Department for Work and Pensions—RDA60209 and RDA60205 reports—Disability We continue to discuss the Syrian crisis with our Living Allowance Management Information Statistics European partners and the Minister for Security reiterated our position at the recent Justice and Home Affairs Katy Clark: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Council on 8 October. and Pensions how many claims for disability living allowance were rejected in each of the last (a) six Western Sahara months and (b) five years for which figures are available. [170447]

Cathy Jamieson: To ask the Secretary of State for Mike Penning: The proportion of disability living Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will raise allowance (DLA) new claim applications that have been with the Moroccan ambassador the report that the rejected are shown in the following tables: bodies of eight Saharawi, including two children who were extrajudicially executed by the Moroccan armed Table (a): DLA new claims rejected forces in 1976 have been found and that no information Number rejected on any of the eight cases was revealed by the Equality April 2013 18,567 and Reconciliation Commission. [170498] May 2013 16,157 June 2013 13,304 Hugh Robertson: We are aware of this report and the July 2013 10,840 discovery of the remains of persons in the Fadret August 2013 6,795 Leguiaa area. The Moroccan National Human Rights September 2013 4,068 Council (CNDH) issued a statement explaining that the Total 69,731 discovery was made after the Equality and Reconciliation Table (b): DLA new claims rejected Commission’s mandated term. We regularly raise human Number rejected rights issues in our dialogue with the Moroccan authorities at ministerial and official level. 2009-10 266,902 2010-11 257,039 Cathy Jamieson: To ask the Secretary of State for 2011-12 243,601 Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will (a) raise 2012-13 227,949 with the Moroccan ambassador and (b) instruct the 2013-14 69,731 UK ambassador in Rabat to investigate the violent Source: Department for Work and Pensions—RDA60209 and RDA60205 reports—Disability break-up of a demonstration by unemployed Saharawi Living Allowance Management Information Statistics graduates on 31 August 2013 in El Aauin, Western Sahara and allegations of beatings leading to Employment and Support Allowance hospitalisation. [170499] Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for Hugh Robertson: We are aware of reports of a recent Work and Pensions (1) how many employment and demonstration. Former Minister, my hon. Friend the support allowance claimants receiving a sanction have Member for North East Bedfordshire (Alistair Burt), been issued with a written statement explaining the raised Human Rights issues in Western Sahara with the reason for the sanction since 12 February 2013; Moroccan ambassador and with my Moroccan counterpart [170949] during his trip to Rabat last month. He pressed the need (2) how many jobseeker’s allowance claimants for Morocco to respond to and act upon the reports receiving a sanction have been issued with a written from the Moroccan National Council of Human Rights statement explaining the reason for the sanction since (CNDH). I will continue to press these issues. 12 February 2013. [170951] 673W Written Answers15 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 674W

Esther McVey: The Department for Work and Pensions Steve Webb: The information requested is as follows. does not collate the data centrally for jobseeker’s allowance (a) The information is not available for Great Britain. The or employment and support allowance claimants and to information relating to Northern Ireland is a matter for the provide it would incur disproportionate cost. Northern Ireland Executive. (b) Figures for 2012-13 are not yet available, but will be Employment Schemes: Young People published on the DWP website after the departmental accounts have been published. The information for 2011-12 and the percentage Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for change compared with 2010-11 for Great Britain will be placed in Work and Pensions how many employers have received the Library. The information relating to Northern Ireland is a wage incentives provided under the Youth Contract in matter for the Northern Ireland Executive. each month since June 2012. [170945] The breakdown of LHA expenditure into those under 25 is estimated based on a combination of statistical Esther McVey: Data on the number of employers data and local authority subsidy returns, as outturn receiving wage incentives are not available. First statistics expenditure data is not available at this level. on wage incentives, released on 22 July 2013, showed that from June 2012 up to and including May 2013 Jobcentre Plus employers received payments for 4,690 young people. Source: Mr Crausby: To ask the Secretary of State for Work https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/youth-contract- and Pensions (1) what the average length of telephone wage-incentive-payments-experimental-statistics calls to the 0800 055 6688 Jobcentre Plus telephone line is; [170392] Housing Benefit (2) what proportion of phone calls received by the 0800 055 6688 Jobcentre Plus telephone line came from Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for mobile telephones in each of the last three years. Work and Pensions what the consequence is for [170424] entitlement to housing benefit when a claimant loses jobseeker’s allowance for a period as a result of a Esther McVey: For the period 1 April 2013 to 4 October sanction. [170948] 2013 the average length of telephone calls to 0800 055 6688 was 13 minutes 21 seconds. Steve Webb: Housing benefit would be unaffected as long as entitlement to the sanctioned income-based Information on the proportion of calls received from jobseeker’s allowance remains. Where a sanction results mobile telephones is not recorded by the Department. in cessation of entitlement to the sanctioned benefit (that is, in this case either income-based or contributory- Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for based jobseeker’s allowance), housing benefit would Work and Pensions whether the number of sanctions need to be reassessed. issued features in each Jobcentre Plus adviser’s internal review; and if he will make a statement. [170950] Additionally, regulations exist which allow sanctions to be applied to benefit payability. These provisions can Esther McVey: Jobcentre Plus uses advisers’ personal affect the amount of housing benefit payable, but not reviews to monitor performance, to inform these they where a Two Strike sanction has been applied to income- use a variety of performance data, including sanctions based jobseeker’s allowance. Further details are at referrals. paragraphs 6.230 onwards of the Housing Benefit Guidance Manual: Jobseeker’s Allowance https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/ attachment_data/file/236955/hbgm-a6-deciding-and-paying- benefit.pdf Mr Crausby: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what steps his Department is taking to Housing Benefit: Social Rented Housing improve access to ESOL courses for claimants of jobseeker’s allowance. [170429] Sarah Teather: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how many households in the Esther McVey: Jobcentre Plus works with local colleges London borough of Brent have been affected by the and training providers to ensure courses are available to recent changes to the under-occupancy penalty. meet claimant and labour market needs. DWP and BIS [170494] are also preparing for the introduction of English language training for claimants with poor spoken English, as Esther McVey: The information requested is not available announced by the Chancellor in the spending round. Housing Benefit: Young People Occupational Pensions: North West

Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Andrew Stephenson: To ask the Secretary of State for Pensions how much was distributed in the financial Work and Pensions what assessment he has made of year 2012-13 in local housing allowance to persons the preparedness of businesses in (a) the North West under the age of 25 in each local authority area in the and (b) Pendle constituency to automatically enrol UK for both (a) local authority or housing association their employees in a pension plan between 1 April 2014 provided housing and (b) privately rented and 1 April 2015. [170827] accommodation; and what was the percentage change in such amounts in each case compared with the Steve Webb: The information is not available in the previous financial year. [170676] format requested. 675W Written Answers15 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 676W

The Pensions Regulator conducts regular research The Pensions Regulator publishes monthly the volume into employer awareness, understanding and activity at of employers that have registered that they have met a UK level. The latest results (published in August their duties along with the volume of employees 2013) can be found at: automatically enrolled. As at 30 August 2013, 2,256 http://www.thepensionsregulator.gov.uk/docs/employer- employers have registered with the Pensions Regulator awareness-workplace-pensions-report-spring-2013.pdf that they have met the duties. Further information can be found at: Andrew Stephenson: To ask the Secretary of State for http://www.thepensionsregulator.gov.uk/docs/automatic- Work and Pensions how many people in (a) the North enrolment-monthly-registration-report-2013.pdf West and (b) Pendle constituency are not currently contributing to a pension. [170828] Social Security Benefits Sarah Teather: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Hurd: I have been asked to reply on behalf of the Work and Pensions what processes are in place to Cabinet Office. identify households that will potentially be affected by The information requested falls within the responsibility the household benefit cap. [170491] of the UK Statistics Authority. I have asked the authority to reply. Esther McVey: Analysis of DWP, HMRC and local Letter from Caron Walker to Andrew Stephenson, dated authority benefit payment systems is undertaken to October 2013: identify households potentially affected by the benefit cap. This data are then verified against live benefit In the absence of the Director General for the Office for systems enabling only appropriate cases to be referred National Statistics, I have been asked to reply to your recent Parliamentary Question asking the Secretary of State for Work to the local authorities for capping. and Pensions, how many people in (a) the North West and (b) Voluntary Work Pendle constituency are not currently contributing to a pension. (170828). Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Work It is not possible to estimate the number of people not currently and Pensions what assessment his Department has contributing to any type of pension. However, the Annual Survey of Hours and Earnings (ASHE) collects information about workplace made of the financial value of volunteering and unpaid pensions in the United Kingdom; that is, pension schemes that care by staff of his Department. [170440] are run or facilitated by employers. Using ASHE data, it is not possible to estimate the number of people who do not currently Esther McVey: The information requested is not available. contribute to a workplace pension, though it is possible to estimate the corresponding proportion of jobs. Estimates are available at Work Programme regional level, but they are not available at the level of parliamentary constituencies. Sarah Teather: To ask the Secretary of State for In April 2012, the latest period for which results are available, Work and Pensions whether individuals who have been the proportion of employee jobs in the North West in which the affected by the household benefit cap were offered early employee was not a member of a workplace pension scheme was access to the Work Programme. [170492] 54 per cent. Esther McVey: Employment and support allowance, Andrew Stephenson: To ask the Secretary of State for incapacity benefit, income support (England only) and Work and Pensions how many businesses in (a) the jobseeker allowance claimants are able to gain early North West and (b) Pendle constituency will have to access to the Work programme. automatically enrol their employees in a pension plan JSA claimants in the 18 to 24 and 25+ claimant between 1 April 2014 and 1 April 2015. [170829] groups would normally access the Work programme at nine or 12 months. However, since June 2012 the Steve Webb: The information is not available in the Department has made early access to the Work programme format requested. available to those JSA claimants likely to be affected by the benefit cap. They are able to volunteer for early The Pensions Regulator estimates that there will be in access to the Work programme after three months of the range of 30,000-40,000 employers across the UK pre-Work programme support from Jobcentre Plus. commencing their automatic enrolment duties from 1 April 2014 to 1 April 2015. This is an approximate range; several factors affect these numbers. For example, an employer may bring their staging dates forward from JUSTICE future periods, an employer may cease trading, or an employer who has a number of affiliated employers in Archaeology: Licensing their group may choose to stage them all in the same period. Hugh Bayley: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice how many licences were issued to archaeologists to dig in areas where they might find human remains in Andrew Stephenson: To ask the Secretary of State for each of the last 10 years; and how many of those Work and Pensions how many businesses in (a) the licences in each year subsequently had the terms or North West and (b) Pendle constituency have conditions of the licence amended. [170787] automatically enrolled their employees in a pension plan. [170830] Mr Vara: The number of licences granted to exhume buried human remains for archaeological purposes issued Steve Webb: The information is not available in the in each year since 2006 is set out in the following table. format requested. We do not hold data for the earlier years. 677W Written Answers15 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 678W

Courts: Buildings Number of archaeological exhumation licences issued Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice 2006 241 which court buildings announced for closure since May 2007 68 2010 (a) have closed and (b) have yet to close. 2008 162 [170303] 2009 200 2010 207 Mr Vara: 138 of the 142 courts announced as part of 2011 194 the Court Estate Reform Programme (CERP) in December 2012 242 2010 have now closed. The remaining courts scheduled 2013 (at 9 October 2013) 188 to close are Andover magistrates court, Rhyl County Court and Alton magistrates court. Due to changes in Details of licences where terms or conditions have workload Bicester magistrates court will no longer close been amended have only been collected since the beginning under the Programme. of this year and currently stand at 14. In all of these In addition to the courts announced for closure under cases the change was to allow the archaeologists more the Court Estate Reform Programme the Ministry of time to conduct their investigations or to deposit the Justice has closed and disposed of a number of court finds in a museum. buildings as a result of the integration and co-location of courts. Legal Aid Scheme Council Tax: Non-payment Mr Crausby: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Hilary Benn: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice what the total amount spent on legal aid in each of the what the average cost to HM Courts and Tribunals last five years was. [170426] Service is of issuing a summons for non-payment of council tax which (a) results and (b) does not result in Mr Vara: I refer the hon. Member to the answer given a hearing. [170314] by the Under-Secretary of State for Justice, my hon. Friend the Member for Kenilworth and Southam (Jeremy Mr Vara: Where a person fails to pay the council tax Wright), on 2 September 2013, Official Report, after it has been demanded, the local authority may column 171W, apply to the magistrates court for a liability order which National Tactical Response Group authorises a range of measures for the enforcement of the unpaid charge. The Council Tax Regulations 1992 Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice do not provide for magistrates courts to look into on which occasions the National Tactical Response questions concerning liability or amount due. Magistrates Group was called out in each month since January courts are required by law to look into a limited range 2013. [169885] of issues, and the only defences available against the making of a liability order are: Jeremy Wright: The National Offender Management the amount has not been demanded in accordance with the Service’s National Tactical Response Group is a specialist regulations; national resource to assist both public and private sector the amount demanded was duly paid; and establishments in safely managing and resolving serious incidents in prisons. the complaint for a liability order was made more than six years after the amount became due under the regulations. The following table sets out the occasions from 1 January As such, the court HM Court Service does not issue 2013 to 30 September 2013 when the National Tactical summons for non-payment of council tax. Proceedings Response Group has been called out to public and for liability orders are rarely contested and so do not private sector establishments. This information does typically result in a hearing. not include aborted call outs:

Count Call out date

Courts 1 2 January 2013 2 3 January 2013 Jessica Morden: To ask the Secretary of State for 3 3 January 2013 Justice pursuant to the answer of 17 July 2013, Official 4 4 January 2013 Report, columns 725-6W, on courts: Wales, what 5 4 January 2013 progress he has made centrally collating information 6 8 January 2013 on the number of litigants in person in civil and family 7 9 January 2013 8 10 January 2013 court cases since 1 April 2013. [170496] 9 11 January 2013 Mr Vara: We continue to use the measure of legal 10 28 January 2013 representation as a proxy for litigants in person. We 11 28 January 2013 have no plans to change this measure. We aim to publish 12 29 January 2013 results regarding legal representation in civil and family 13 4 February 2013 case next year broken down by region in Court Statistics 14 5 February 2013 Quarterly: 15 7 February 2013 16 8 February 2013 https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/ministry-of- 17 13 February 2013 justice/series/court-statistics-quarterly 679W Written Answers15 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 680W

Count Call out date Count Call out date

18 14 February 2013 82 7 June 2013 19 16 February 2013 83 10 June 2013 20 18 February 2013 84 10 June 2013 21 21 February 2013 85 12 June 2013 22 22 February 2013 86 16 June 2013 23 27 February 2013 87 17 June 2013 24 28 February 2013 88 17 June 2013 25 2 March 2013 89 17 June 2013 26 3 March 2013 90 18 June 2013 27 4 March 2013 91 18 June 2013 28 6 March 2013 92 18 June 2013 29 9 March 2013 93 18 June 2013 30 11 March 2013 94 19 June 2013 31 11 March 2013 95 22 June 2013 32 12 March 2013 96 22 June 2013 33 12 March 2013 97 25 June 2013 34 13 March 2013 98 26 June 2013 35 13 March 2013 99 26 June 2013 36 16 March 2013 100 27 June 2013 37 23 March 2013 101 30 June 2013 38 30 March 2013 102 6 July 2013 39 1 April 2013 103 9 July 2013 40 1 April 2013 104 9 July 2013 41 2 April 2013 105 10 July 2013 42 2 April 2013 106 10 July 2013 43 4 April 2013 107 14 July 2013 44 7 April 2013 108 16 July 2013 45 11 April 2013 109 18 July 2013 46 11 April 2013 110 18 July 2013 47 16 April 2013 111 22 July 2013 48 17 April 2013 112 27 July 2013 49 19 April 2013 113 28 July 2013 50 22 April 2013 114 28 July 2013 51 23 April 2013 115 29 July 2013 52 25 April 2013 116 1 August 2013 53 26 April 2013 117 3 August 2013 54 26 April 2013 118 6 August 2013 55 27 April 2013 119 6 August 2013 56 5 May 2013 120 7 August 2013 57 5 May 2013 121 13 August 2013 58 6 May 2013 122 18 August 2013 59 7 May 2013 123 18 August 2013 60 8 May 2013 124 18 August 2013 61 10 May 2013 125 19 August 2013 62 12 May 2013 126 21 August 2013 63 14 May 2013 127 21 August 2013 64 17 May 2013 128 23 August 2013 65 20 May 2013 129 24 August 2013 66 20 May 2013 130 28 August 2013 67 21 May 2013 131 28 August 2013 68 23 May 2013 132 31 August 2013 69 23 May 2013 133 2 September 2013 70 23 May 2013 134 3 September 2013 71 26 May 2013 135 3 September 2013 72 27 May 2013 136 4 September 2013 73 30 May 2013 137 5 September 2013 74 30 May 2013 138 5 September 2013 75 31 May 2013 139 6 September 2013 76 2 June 2013 140 9 September 2013 77 2 June 2013 141 10 September 2013 78 2 June 2013 142 21 September 2013 79 2 June 2013 143 22 September 2013 80 3 June 2013 144 24 September 2013 81 7 June 2013 145 24 September 2013 681W Written Answers15 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 682W

Mr Harper: I have been asked to reply on behalf of Count Call out date the Home Department. 146 24 September 2013 The requested figures are shown in the following 147 24 September 2013 table: 148 24 September 2013 Table 1: Foreign national offenders detained beyond the end of their sentence in 149 25 September 2013 Scottish prisons or immigration centres, 1 April 2010 to 31 March 2013 150 26 September 2013 Financial year Total 151 27 September 2013 2010-11 124 2011-12 96 Personal Injury: Compensation 2012-13 79 Notes: Mr Slaughter: To ask the Secretary of State for 1. All figures quoted have been derived from management information and are Justice when his Department plans to publish its therefore provisional and subject to change. This information has not been response to the consultation on whiplash and the small quality assured under National Statistics protocols. 2. Figures relate to main applicants only. claims court for personal injury which closed on 8 3. Figures relate to Dungavel Immigration Centre the following prisons: HMP March 2013. [170631] Aberdeen, HMP Addiewell, HMP Barlinnie, HMP Dumfries, HMP Edinburgh, HMP Greenock, HMP Inverness, HMP Kilmarnock, HMP Low Moss, HMP Mr Vara: The Government is committed to reducing Perth, HMP Peterhead, HMP Polmont, and HMP Shotts. the number and cost of whiplash claims to help bring Richard III down the cost of motor insurance premiums for consumers. On 16 May 2013, Official Report, columns 48-49WS, my predecessor announced in a written ministerial statement Hugh Bayley: To ask the Secretary of State for that the Government would defer its response to the Justice (1) how much his Department spent on legal ’Reducing the number and cost of whiplash claims’ advice and representation in relation to the judicial consultation until after the Transport Committee had review case before Mr Justice Haddon-Cave concerning published its own report and recommendations in this the remains of King Richard III (a) up to the point at area. The Committee’s report was published on 31 July. which the judge issued his judgement in August 2013 We are considering its recommendations alongside the and (b) since that date; [170786] responses received to the consultation. The Government (2) what advice he has sought from (a) English will publish its response later this year. Heritage, (b) the Advisory Panel on the Archaeology of Burials in England and (c) other bodies or experts Prisoners’ Transfers on (i) whether he has power to amend the terms of the licence issued to the University of Leicester Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Archaeology Department to dig for the remains of (1) how many (a) new arrivals and (b) departures King Richard III and (ii) other related matters; and if there were at (i) HM Prison Doncaster, (ii) HM Prison he will place in the Library copies of all the advice he Lindholme, (iii) HM Prison Hatfield and (iv) HM has received on this matter. [170780] Prison Moorland in each month since May 2010; [170947] Mr Vara: The Ministry of Justice’s spend on legal (2) how many prisoners have moved from HMP costs up to 15 August was £15,850. Figures for the Lindholme to (a) HMP Doncaster, (b) HMP Hatfield spend since then are not yet collated. and (c) HMP Moorland in each month since May 2010; [170953] Under Section 25 of the Burial Act 1857 the Lord (3) how many prisoners have moved from HMP Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice, my right Moorland to (a) HMP Lindholme, (b) HMP hon. Friend the Member for Epsom and Ewell (Chris Doncaster and (c) HMP Hatfield in each month since Grayling), has a wide power to grant exhumation licences and attach and amend any conditions he thinks appropriate. May 2010; [170954] He is not required to consult English Heritage or others (4) how many prisoners have moved from HMP on his powers under this legislation. Doncaster to (a) HMP Lindholme, (b) HMP Hatfield and (c) HMP Moorland in each month since May 2010; [170955] Scrap Metal Dealers Act 2013 (5) how many prisoners moved from HMP Hatfield to (a) HMP Lindholme, (b) HMP Doncaster and (c) Mr Frank Field: To ask the Secretary of State for HMP Moorland in each month since May 2010. Justice whether he has made an assessment of the [170956] impact of the Scrap Metal Dealers Act 2013 on legitimate businesses who purchase scrap cars with Jeremy Wright: I have asked the prisons to provide banknotes and coins; and if he will make a statement. the requested information and will write to the right [170269] hon. Member as soon as possible. Prisoners: Foreign Nationals Norman Baker: I have been asked to reply on behalf of the Home Department. Mr Davidson: To ask the Secretary of State for Motor salvage businesses have only been subject to Justice what estimate he has made of the number of the ban on the use of cash to purchase scrap vehicles foreign national offenders detained beyond the end of since the Scrap Metal Dealers Act 2013 commenced on their sentence in prisons or immigration centres in each 1 October 2013. No assessment has been made at this of the last three years in Scotland. [165710] time. 683W Written Answers15 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 684W

BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS Jo Swinson: A consultation which seeks views on zero hours contracts is planned to be launched later this Central Sussex College year. Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for Dietary Supplements Business, Innovation and Skills pursuant to the answer of 14 May 2013, Official Report, column 128W, on Mr Virendra Sharma: To ask the Secretary of State Central Sussex College, what conclusions were drawn for Business, Innovation and Skills whether any from the urgent review of the financial situation of products sold legally as non-harmonised food Central Sussex College; and what further steps have supplements in other EU member states have been since been taken. [170482] prohibited from sale in the UK despite mutual recognition being cited. [170234] Matthew Hancock [holding answer 14 October 2013]: The Skills Funding Agency has concluded that there is Michael Fallon: We are not aware of any products good progress being made to bring the college back to sold legally as non-harmonised food supplements in sound financial health. The agency has worked proactively other EU member states that have been prohibited from with the college on identifying and resolving the reasons sale in the UK despite mutual recognition being cited. for the poor financial situation which included; poor budget setting, inaccurate financial reporting, weak Mr Virendra Sharma: To ask the Secretary of State operation of some key financial controls, poor management for Business, Innovation and Skills what grounds there of the cost base of the college, shortfalls in income are for prohibiting products sold lawfully as non- generation, poor leadership and weak governance. These harmonised food supplements in other member states were set against a context of very high borrowings due from being sold in the UK under mutual recognition. to new capital build at Haywards Heath. [170235] Alongside new appointments of both the Chair of Governors and the Chair of Audit Committee, the Michael Fallon: The Pharmaceutical Directive (2001/ college has undergone a major restructure which has 83/EC), which is non-harmonised, permits individual delivered significant savings and has also appointed member states to classify products as medicines that new internal and external auditors. may be sold as food supplements in other member The college was inspected in April and was graded as states. The Pharmaceutical Directive takes precedence requiring some improvement overall but with some over food legislation. The determination procedure of curriculum areas being graded as good or outstanding. the Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Significant improvements have been made to the college’s Authority (MHRA) includes a right of review. management information system resulting in accurate Students financial and data management reporting. A draft Recovery Plan was received in May and Mr Denham: To ask the Secretary of State for reviewed by the Skills Funding Agency and externally Business, Innovation and Skills how many full-time by EFA and HEFCE colleagues. The agency accepted students at English higher education institutions were the final Recovery Plan in August which should fully living (a) away from home and (b) at home in each of take the college to satisfactory financial health as soon the last 10 years. [171024] as reasonably possible. In order to ensure progress, the agency holds monthly case conferences to review the Mr Willetts: The Higher Education Statistics Agency Recovery Plan and has a presence on Audit Committees (HESA) collects and publishes information on students and at Governors meetings. at UK higher education institutions (HEIs). Information Conditions of Employment on the term-time living arrangements of English domiciled students enrolled in full-time higher education at English Alison McGovern: To ask the Secretary of State for HEIs is provided in the table. Business, Innovation and Skills when he expects to Information for the 2012/13 academic year will become launch a consultation on measures to regulate the use available from the Higher Education Statistics Agency of zero-hour contracts. [170410] in January 2014.

English domiciled full-time enrolments1 by term-time living arrangements English higher education institutions. Academic years 2002/03 to 2011/12 Undergraduates All enrolments Students living Students living Students living away from Students living away from with parents2 home3 Other4 Total with parents2 home3 Other4 Total

2002/03 153,780 539,460 75,385 768,625 165,550 603,165 85,480 854,195 2003/04 160,085 545,650 82,405 788,140 173,040 612,305 91,660 877,005 2004/05 168,885 567,820 66,750 803,455 181,645 634,455 75,650 891,750 2005/06 178,565 594,215 57,790 830,570 192,170 664,500 65.570 922,240 2006/07 178,965 605,160 51,760 835,885 192,580 676,220 58,285 927,085 2007/08 195,600 595,405 63,235 854,240 210,695 659,775 73,005 943,475 2008/09 202,105 609,485 68,090 879,680 218,380 677,825 76,435 972,640 2009/10 223,970 632.520 62,200 918,690 244,620 706,940 70,960 1,022,520 2010/11 227,025 649,065 59,535 935,625 248,395 723,340 68,020 1,039,755 685W Written Answers15 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 686W

English domiciled full-time enrolments1 by term-time living arrangements English higher education institutions. Academic years 2002/03 to 2011/12 Undergraduates All enrolments Students living Students living Students living away from Students living away from with parents2 home3 Other4 Total with parents2 home3 Other4 Total

2011/12 237,265 671,945 56,270 965,480 259,385 748.010 63,500 1,070,895 1 Enrolments refer to students in all years of study. 2 Students who report term-time accommodation as living with parent(s) or guardian(s). 3 Students living in own home, other rented accommodation, private-sector halls of residence or in an institution-maintained property. 4 Term-time accommodation is unknown, missing, unspecified or simply the student is not in attendance at the institution during the reported academic year. Note: Figures are based on a HESA standard registration population and have been rounded up or down to the nearest multiple of five, so components may not sum to totals. Source: Higher Education Statistics Agency

Mr Denham: To ask the Secretary of State for on the number and proportion of undergraduate English Business, Innovation and Skills how many and what domiciled students enrolled in full-time higher education proportion of English domiciled and English students at UK HEIs by age is provided in the table. These at higher education institutions were aged (a) under figures are different to the recent question on 14 October 22, (b) 22 to 25, (c) 26 to 30 and (d) 30 and over in 2013, Official Report, columns 560-61W, as it includes each year since 2001. [171026] enrolments in other UK institutions as well as English institutions. Mr Willetts: The Higher Education Statistics Agency Information for the 2012/13 academic year will become (HESA) collects and publishes information on students available from the Higher Education Statistics Agency at UK higher education institutions (HEIs). Information in January 2014.

English domiciled1 full-time undergraduate enrolments2 by age. UK higher education institutions. Academic years 2001/02 to 2011/12 Under 22 years 22 to 25 years 26 to 30 years 30 and over years Known ages Ages missing or Number Percentage Number Percentage Number Percentage Number Percentage Total unspecified

2001/02 582,390 74 96,580 12 35,735 5 70,245 9 784,945 225 2002/03 596,520 73 106,425 13 36,250 4 74,740 9 813,930 245 2003/04 605,050 73 112,220 13 37,180 4 79,115 9 833,570 360 2004/05 615,645 72 114,490 13 38,215 4 81,230 10 849,580 190 2005/06 639,125 73 115,370 13 40,200 5 82,765 9 877,455 245 2006/07 649,035 73 114,005 13 40,730 5 79,555 9 882,325 70 2007/08 662,685 74 117,860 13 41,595 5 77,575 9 899,715 50 2008/09 684,530 74 120,700 13 43,185 5 76,855 8 925,265 40 2009/10 718,560 74 124,570 13 45,000 5 78,505 8 966,630 35 2010/11 734,030 74 129,380 13 45,190 5 76,865 8 985,465 15 2011/12 768,870 76 129,285 13 44,340 4 75,195 7 1,017,685 10 1 Domicile refers to a student’s permanent or home address prior to entry to their course. 2 Enrolments refer to students in all years of study. Notes: Figures are based on a HESA standard registration population and have been rounded up or down to the nearest multiple of five, so components may not sum to totals. Percentages are calculated from unrounded figures based on data where ages are known. Source: Higher Education Statistics Agency

Students: Finance includes further education colleges and alternative providers of higher education. Statistics prior to 2004-05 are not Mr Denham: To ask the Secretary of State for available. Business, Innovation and Skills how many (a) UK and Statistics on student support awards and payments (b) English-domiciled students in receipt of (i) are published annually by the Student Loans Company. maintenance grants and (ii) maintenance loans were Final figures for the academic year 2012-13 will be (A) living at home and (B) living away from home in available from November 2013. each year since 2001. [171023] Maintenance loan awards1 to student support applicants by term time residency: Mr Willetts: Statistics on the number of English English domiciled applicants academic years 2007-08 to 2011-12 domiciled students who were awarded maintenance loans Number of applicants (thousand) Living and grants by whether they were living with their parents Academic with Living or elsewhere are shown in the following tables. The year parents elsewhere Combined Unknown Total figures are provided by the Student Loans Company (SLC). Data relating to non-English domiciled students 2004-05 129.3 528.1 2.8 36.4 696.6 are available from the respective administrations. 2005-06 134.8 584.9 4.0 723.8 The data include students at all types of higher 2006-07 131.6 595.3 3.8 730.8 education provider designated for student support, which 2007-08 129.6 616.5 4.0 750.2 687W Written Answers15 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 688W

Maintenance loan awards1 to student support applicants by term time residency: Supported Export Credits and Environmental and Social English domiciled applicants academic years 2007-08 to 2011-12 Due Diligence (the “OECD Common Approaches”) in Number of applicants (thousand) regard to the potential environmental, social and human Living Academic with Living rights (ESHR) impacts of projects it is asked to support year parents elsewhere Combined Unknown Total that fall within the ambit of that agreement. The OECD Common Approaches requires that applications made 2008-09 130.6 640.6 4.4 775.5 to ECAs for support for such projects should be screened 2009-10 143.5 679.6 4.3 827.5 to determine whether they should then be categorised 2010-11 143.1 714.3 5.0 862.3 and reviewed for their ESHR impacts against the relevant 2011-12 150.2 756.5 5.7 912.4 international standards. 1 Data refer to Awards recorded by October 2013 and are therefore higher than In 2012-13, the number of export transactions that the awards statistics presented in the Statistical First Release ‘Student Support were screened by UK Export Finance which fell within for Higher Education in England’, which makes mid-academic-year comparisons of student support awards. the OECD Common Approaches, and where the Source: application related to projects in fixed locations, was 13. Student Loans Company Jeremy Lefroy: To ask the Secretary of State for Maintenance grant awards1 to student support applicants by term time residency: English domiciled applicants academic years 2007-08 to 2011-12 Business, Innovation and Skills how much was Number of awarded applicants (thousand) provided in (a) financial guarantees and (b) other Living support for UK exports through UK Export Finance Academic with Living in (i) 2009-10, (ii) 2010-11, (iii) 2011-12 and (iv) year parents elsewhere Combined Unknown Total 2012-13. [170233] 2004-05 28.7 63,1 0.5 7.6 99.8 2005-06 55.2 136.2 1.2 — 192.7 Michael Fallon: UK Export Finance supports exports 2006-07 86.5 229.3 1.8 — 317.6 principally by providing (a) financial guarantees on 2007-08 101.2 289.5 2.2 — 392.8 loans made by banks to overseas buyers of UK exports, 2008-09 120.0 370.4 2.8 — 493.2 and (b) insurance to UK exporters against the risk of 2009-10 128.7 413.2 2.7 — 544.6 not being paid by an overseas buyer. 2010-11 125.3 425.7 2.9 — 553.9 The amount of business supported through (a) financial 2011-12 129.3 444.4 3.5 — 577.2 guarantees and (b) insurance is detailed in UKEF’s 2012-13 130.2 444.8 3.7 — 578.6 Annual Report and Accounts, which are available in the 1 Data refer to awards recorded by October 2013 and are therefore higher than House Library. The figures for the last four years are the awards statistics presented in the Statistical First Release ‘Student Support for Higher Education in England’. reproduced here: Source: Student Loans Company £ million Financial Total business Students: Loans guarantees Insurance supported

Mr Denham: To ask the Secretary of State for 2009-10 2,028 178 2,206 Business, Innovation and Skills what RAB charge will 2010-11 2,861 63 2,924 be applied to (a) tuition fee loans and (b) 2011-12 2,278 39 2,318 maintenance loans for students commencing their 2012-13 2,731 1,564 4,295 studies in 2013-14. [171022]

Mr Willetts: I refer the right hon. Member to the answer I gave him on 14 October 2013, Official Report, ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE column 565W. Carbon Emissions UK Export Finance David T. C. Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change how much his Business, Innovation and Skills with reference to UK Department spent on the Government Carbon Export Finance’s Annual Report and Accounts for Offsetting Framework in the latest year for which 2012-13, how many of the 138 transactions listed in figures are available. [169854] that report are covered by the Recommendation of the Council on Common Approaches for officially Gregory Barker: The Department of Energy and supported export credits and environmental and social Climate Change spent £8,292.80 offsetting its 2011-12 due diligence (The Common Approaches) that governs official and ministerial air travel through the Government the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Carbon Offsetting Facility. Development export credit agencies; and if he will make a statement. [170220] Energy Companies Obligation

Michael Fallon: It is the Government’s policy that Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy UK Export Finance (formally the Export Credit and Climate Change if he will publish an audited Guarantees Department) applies international agreements valuation of expenditure in connection with the that relate to the operations of Export Credit Agencies Carbon Saving Obligation and the Affordable Warmth (ECAs). This includes the OECD Recommendation of Obligation by energy companies which excludes any the Council on Common Approaches for Officially match funding from customers. [170978] 689W Written Answers15 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 690W

Gregory Barker: The obligated energy companies are Green Deal Scheme required to report to Ofgem on what it is costing them to deliver under all elements of the Energy Company Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy Obligation (ECO). While this information is commercially and Climate Change how many Green Deal confidential, the Secretary of State for Energy and assessments have (a) taken place, (b) been followed Climate Change, the right hon. Member for Kingston through to completion in each parliamentary and Surbiton (Mr Davey), wrote to all obligated companies constituency since January 2013. [170907] last week requesting that they agree to greater transparency around the publication of ECO cost information, both Gregory Barker: The number of Green Deal Assessments at supplier level and in aggregate form. lodged by parliamentary constituency, from January to June 2013, has been published in Table 1b of ″Domestic Energy: Prices Green Deal and Energy Company Obligation in Great Britain, Statistical report: January-June 2013″: Ian Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/green-deal-and- and Climate Change what assessment he has made of energy-company-obligation-eco-monthly-statistics-september- the effect of the European Union Emissions Trading 2013 Scheme on household energy prices. [169796] The number of Green Deal Assessments lodged by parliamentary constituency, from January to September Gregory Barker: DECC’s latest assessment of the 2013, will be published in the next release of this impact of energy and climate change policies on energy statistical series, on 19 December. The Department will prices and bills was published on 27 March 2013 and is provide other detailed breakdowns of Green Deal activity available online at: as more data becomes available. https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/ Insulation: Cannock Chase attachment_data/file/172923/130326_- _Price_and_Bill_Impacts_Report_Final.pdf Mr Burley: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy Tables E1-E3 in Annex E of the report estimate that and Climate Change how many homes in Cannock in 2013 the costs of the EU Emissions Trading Scheme Chase constituency were fitted with insulation under (EU ETS) add around £2 per MWh (real 2012 prices) to programmes of his Department in (a) 2012, (b) 2011 electricity prices for households and also those non-domestic and (c) 2010. [170915] energy users who purchase electricity from an electricity supplier. This impact is based on an EU ETS price of Gregory Barker: I refer my hon. Friend to the answer I gave him on 25 June 2013, Official Report, column around £6 per tonne of CO2 (real 2012 prices), although it should be noted that current prices are trading below 221-222W. this level. Performance Appraisal EU Emissions Trading Scheme: Cement Mrs Lewell-Buck: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what proportion of (a) Mark Pawsey: To ask the Secretary of State for disabled and (b) all other staff employed by his Energy and Climate Change what estimate he has made Department received each level of performance rating of the additional cost to the UK cement industry of in their end of year performance assessment for the cross sectoral correction factor for Phase III of the 2012-13. [170452] EU Emissions Trading System. [170260] Gregory Barker: The proportion of (a) disabled and Gregory Barker: The Government has not made such (b) all other staff employed by the Department who an estimate. However UK industrial sectors—including received each level of performance rating in their end of the cement sector—will receive over 510 million free year performance assessment for 2012-13 is detailed in allowances over the course of Phase III (2013-20) of the Table 1 for staff employed in civil service grades AO to EU Emissions Trading System, worth over £2.5 billion Grade 6 and Table 2 for staff employed in the senior civil service (SCS). at the current allowance price of around ¤5/tCO2. This level of allocation is after the application of the Cross Table 1: Performance ratings for Staff in Grades AO to Grade 6. Sectoral Correction Factor, which will be applied uniformly Staff have declared a disability (%) to all non-electricity generating installations across the Performance rating Yes No

EU. 1—Exceptional 17 26 The Government recognises the risk of carbon leakage 2—Effective 68 69 within the EU ETS, and supports the proportionate 3—Need for 15 5 free allocation of allowances as a tool to mitigate this, improvement/developing without raising barriers to international trade. However, Table 2: Performance rating for staff in SCS grades we have expressed concern to the European Commission Staff have declared a disability (%) that those most at risk may not be compensated sufficiently Performance rating Yes No in the future if current rules are not reformed to ensure that free allowances are better targeted to those sectors Top n/a 27 genuinely at significant risk. We continue to monitor Achieving n/a 66 and evaluate the impact of the EU ETS on the Low n/a 7 competitiveness of UK industry, and have commissioned research to investigate this issue further. The cement Due to the small number of SCS who declared a disability, industry is folly involved in the conduct of that research performance ratings for these staff cannot be disclosed via the Mineral Products Association. to ensure individuals are not identifiable. 691W Written Answers15 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 692W

At the time of these results 32% of staff had not the total number of domestic renewable heat installations declared their disability status, the performance ratings supported by the domestic RHI scheme by 2020 in our for both groups of staff whose disability status is unknown September 2012 Domestic Consultation document. has not been included in these results. Our final domestic impact assessment published in Full findings of the diversity analysis for the 2012-13 July 2013 revised this estimate to a total of 745,000 performance year will be published in January 2014 as domestic renewable heat installations being supported part of DECC’s wider diversity information publication. by the scheme by 2020-21. As of 31 August 2013, 1,497 installations have received Redundancy payments as part of the non-domestic RHI scheme. We intend to launch the domestic scheme in spring 2014. Jackie Doyle-Price: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change how many staff were New estimates of future installation numbers for the made redundant from non-departmental public bodies non-domestic scheme will be published in autumn 2013 accountable to his Department in (a) 2010-11, (b) as part of the Government’s response to recent consultations 2011-12 and (c) 2012-13; and how many redundancy on changes to the scheme. payments were made in lieu of notice. [170349] Wind Power

Gregory Barker: The Department has responsibility Mr Binley: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy for four non-departmental bodies: and Climate Change what subsidy has been provided to Committee on Climate Change compensate for inactive wind turbines over the last Nuclear Decommissioning Authority 12 months for which figures are available. [170003] Civil Nuclear Police Authority Coal Authority. Gregory Barker: The Government has made no payments to wind farms to compensate for inactivity. The number of redundancies in the Committee on Climate Change and the number of payments in lieu of Chris Heaton-Harris: To ask the Secretary of State notice made are shown in the following table: for Energy and Climate Change what onshore wind energy generation capacity (a) had been installed, (b) Type 2010-11 2011-12 1012-13 had gained planning consent and (c) was seeking Redundancies 0 0 0 planning permission on 1 October 2013. [170959] PILON 0 0 0 Michael Fallon: This information is publicly available The number of redundancies in the Nuclear within the monthly extract of the Department’s Renewable Decommissioning Authority and the number of payments Energy Planning Database (REPD), which tracks all in lieu of notice made are shown in the following table: renewable projects through the planning system: https://restats.decc.gov.uk/app/reporting/decc/monthlyextract Type 2010-11 2011-12 2012-13 As of 18 September 2013, the date of the latest Redundancies 72 1 0 REPD update, the figures for onshore wind in the UK PILON 8 1 0 were:

The number of redundancies in the Civil Nuclear GW Police Authority and the number of payments in lieu of notice made are shown in the following table: Operational 6.8 Planning consent received 6.4 Type 2010-11 2011-12 2012-13 Submitted for planning consent 6.4 Redundancies 0 2 0 Not all projects receiving and/or applying for planning PILON 0 0 0 consent will be constructed. The number of redundancies in the Coal Authority and the number of payments in lieu of notice made are shown in the following table: ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS Bovine Tuberculosis Type 2010-11 2011-12 2012-13 Redundancies 0 31 2 Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State PILON 0 31 2 for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent discussions he has had with the Secretary of State for Renewable Heat Incentive Scheme the Home Department on the illegal gassing of badgers. [171018] Graham Stringer: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change if he will re-examine his George Eustice: There have been no recent discussions Department’s estimate that 379,600 renewables would with the Secretary of State for the Home Department, be installed by 2012 under the renewable heat incentive my right hon. Friend the Member for Maidenhead scheme. [170832] (Mrs May), on this specific issue. Unlicensed culling of badgers or interference with their setts is illegal under Gregory Barker: The Department has not estimated the Badger Protection Act 1992, as it may increase the that there would be 379,600 renewable heat installations risk of perturbation, and may, therefore, increase the by 2012. 379,600 installations is the estimate made for likelihood of geographical spread of bTB to cattle and 693W Written Answers15 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 694W other badgers. Unlicensed taking of, possession or selling England. We are unable to provide comparable figures of badgers is also illegal. Evidence of any such wrongdoing for 2008 due to a database maintenance and updating should be brought to the attention of the police. exercise. 1 Commercial holdings are those with significant levels of farming Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State activity. These significant levels are classified as any holding with for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if he will more than five hectares of agricultural land, one hectare of make it his policy that gassing not be used as a method orchards, 0.5 hectares of vegetables or 0.1 hectares of protected crops, or more than 10 cows, 50 pigs, 20 sheep, 20 goats or 1,000 of culling badgers. [171019] poultry.

George Eustice: As set out in the recent consultation 2009 2010 2011 2012 exercise on a draft strategy for achieving officially bovine TB free status for England, further research into alternative Ribble 108 100 97 91 population control methods (e.g. sett-based culling methods Valley and non-lethal methods) is under consideration. This Lancashire 513 487 468 449 includes a potential investigation into the use of anoxic England 8,190 7,882 7,609 7,276 gas or gas-filled foam as a sett-based means of humane Source: culling. June Survey of Agriculture Data for Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland is the responsibility of the devolved Administrations. Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs with Horses reference to his oral answer of 10 October 2013, Official Report, column 284, on Bovine Tuberculosis, Damian Hinds: To ask the Secretary of State for what assessment his Department has made of the (a) Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what assessment safety, (b) humaneness and (c) effectiveness of gassing his Department has made of recent trends in fly- as a method of culling badgers. [171025] grazing of horses in (a) East Hampshire constituency, (b) Hampshire and (c) England. [170938] George Eustice: Further research into alternative population control methods (eg sett-based culling methods George Eustice: The Government has not conducted and non-lethal methods) is under consideration. This research to establish precise trends in the illegal activity includes a potential investigation into the use of anoxic of fly-grazing. However, I share the concerns of landowners gas or gas-filled foam as a sett-based means of humane and horse welfare organisations about people who graze culling. The research is not yet at a stage at which the their horses on other people’s land without their permission. essential matters of safety, humaneness and effectiveness I understand the frustrations of landowners who consider can be assessed. that the law does not allow action to be taken quickly enough and I support the call for enforcement bodies to Carbon Emissions share best practice on how to deal with perpetrators. The new measures designed to tackle antisocial behaviour, in the Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill David T. C. Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for which is currently before Parliament, will also be available Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how much his to use against people who fly-graze their horses. Department spent on the Government Carbon Offsetting Framework in the latest year for which Marine Conservation Zones figures are available. [169892] Damian Collins: To ask the Secretary of State for George Eustice: It is core DEFRA’s policy to invest Environment, Food and Rural Affairs when he expects in energy efficiency and carbon reduction initiatives to report the results of his consultation on the creation rather than on carbon offsetting. Core DEFRA has not of new marine conservation zones. [170920] spent any money on energy-related carbon offsetting in the last financial year (2012-13). George Eustice: Over 40,000 responses were received to the Marine Conservation Zones (MCZs) public consultation. A summary of responses that focused on Dairy Farming generic issues raised during the consultation was published in July. We aim to announce the designation of the first Mr Nigel Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for set of new MCZs shortly, along with a summary of Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many dairy site-specific issues raised in the consultation. farms in (a) Ribble Valley constituency, (b) Lancashire and (c) the UK have ceased to operate in Performance Appraisal each of the last five years; and if he will make a Mrs Lewell-Buck: To ask the Secretary of State for statement. [170701] Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what proportion of (a) disabled and (b) all other staff employed by his George Eustice: DEFRA does not collect figures on Department received each level of performance rating the number of farm businesses leaving the dairy sector in their end of year performance assessment for each year. Figures from the June Survey of Agriculture 2012-13. [170453] only indicate activity on registered holdings in England at June each year and therefore show net change only. George Eustice: Core DEFRA’s Performance The number of commercial holdings1 where dairy is Management system uses three categories to assess and the predominant activity are shown in the following rate the level of performance of its staff. These are table for 2009-12 in the Ribble Valley, Lancashire and 1 ‘Excellent’, 2 ‘Good’ and 3 ‘Must Improve’. 695W Written Answers15 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 696W

The following table shows the 2012-13 end of year EDUCATION performance ratings received in each category by (a) disabled and (b) all other staff below SCS: Adoption: Northumberland

Percentage achieved by rating Mr Ronnie Campbell: To ask the Secretary of State Total no. of for Education how many children in care for whom staff below Disabled ‘1’ ‘2’ ‘3’ SCS Northumberland Social Services has responsibility have been put up for adoption in the last two years. No 27 67 6 1,056 [170767] Unknown 27 67 6 723 Yes 196516139Mr Timpson: In 2012-13, there were 35 children with adoption decisions in Northumberland local authority, Total number 506 1,288 124 1,918 this compares to 30 in 2011-12. An adoption decision is of staff below the point at which the local authority (LA) agency SCS decision maker makes a formal decision that adoption is in the best interests of a child. The LA may then place The ‘Unknown’ staff group relates to individuals the child with adoptive parents once either the consent who have not recorded their disability status on the of the birth parents is obtained or, where this is not Department’s online self-reporting system. given, the court makes a placement order to do so. Figures are rounded to the nearest five. Slaughterhouses: Animal Welfare The 2012-13 Children Looked After Statistical First Release includes information on adoption and further 1 Mr Frank Field: To ask the Secretary of State for local authority breakdowns . Environment, Food and Rural Affairs whether he has 1https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/children- examined the possibility of installing CCTV cameras in looked-after-in-england-including-adoption an attempt to prevent animal torture in abattoirs. [170162] Engineering Employers Federation

George Eustice: Compulsory CCTV at slaughterhouses Nic Dakin: To ask the Secretary of State for was considered earlier this year as part of the Education how many meetings there have been implementation of EU Regulation 1099/2009 on the between Ministers or officials of his Department and protection of animals at the time of killing in EEF since May 2010. [170946] England. The Government is currently unconvinced of the need for further legislation, but will be keeping Elizabeth Truss: This information is not held centrally the need for CCTV under review in the context of the and could be compiled only at disproportionate cost. new monitoring requirements required under Regulation 1099/2009. Grace Academy Coventry

Trout Mr Ainsworth: To ask the Secretary of State for Education what representations he has received on the relationship and sex education policy of Grace Jim Shannon: To ask the Secretary of State for Academy in Coventry; and what steps his Department Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what steps his plans to take in response. [170838] Department is taking to protect ferox brown trout in the UK. [170738] Mr Timpson: The Department has received a number of representations about the Sex and Relationship George Eustice: All the devolved Administrations Education (SRE) policy of the Grace Academy in Coventry. manage predatory or ferox brown trout as part of the As a result, we have contacted the school which has wider brown trout population, rather than as a separate removed its existing policy from its website and agreed species. to review it. Fishing for trout, including ferox brown trout, is highly regulated. Measures include annual close seasons Languages: GCE A-level when fishing is not allowed, requirements to obtain a licence to fish, and byelaws regulating fishing methods Mr Nigel Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for and the minimum size of fish that can be taken. Education how many pupils in (a) Ribble Valley Regulation of the movement or introduction of fish constituency, (b) Lancashire and (c) the UK have into and between waters is also undertaken. This protects studied A-level Mandarin in each of the last five years. against interbreeding between native and introduced [170894] trout, which can lower the survival chances of native wild trout, and helps maintain and protect local populations Elizabeth Truss: It is not possible to identify pupils of different types or subspecies of brown trout. entered for Mandarin from the Department’s data. Brown trout and their prey species also benefit from The Department for Education produces statistics on the work undertaken to protect and improve the water England only. The responsibility for education statistics environment to meet the requirements of the Water in Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales lies with each Framework Directive. devolved Administration. 697W Written Answers15 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 698W

Pre-school Education: Staffordshire HEALTH

Mr Burley: To ask the Secretary of State for Accident and Emergency Departments Education (1) what estimate his Department has made of the number of children who will be eligible for free Paul Burstow: To ask the Secretary of State for nursery care in (a) Staffordshire and (b) Cannock Health what plans he has to respond to the NHS Chase constituency in (i) 2014 and (ii) 2015; [170897] Confederation report, Urgent and Emergency Care: (2) what estimate his Department has made of the An accident waiting to happen?; and if he will make a number of children who are currently receiving free statement. [170451] nursery care in (a) Staffordshire and (b) Cannock Chase constituency. [170898] Jane Ellison: We welcome the recent NHS Confederation report on Urgent and Emergency Care which provides a Elizabeth Truss: We estimate that around 1,466 two- valuable contribution to the debate around urgent and year-olds in Staffordshire are currently eligible for a emergency care, and in particular to Sir Bruce Keogh’s funded early education place, and that in 2014 and 2015 review into Urgent and Emergency Services. There are around 3,700 two-year-olds will be eligible. We do not no plans for a formal response; however, much of the have information on the number of two-year-olds currently work we are currently undertaking to provide short and receiving a funded place. All three and four-year-olds long-term solutions to the pressures faced by accident are entitled to a funded place. Statistics collected in and emergency (A&E) are in line with recommendations January 2013 showed that there were, at that time, set out in the NHS Confederation report. 18,290 three and four-year-olds in Staffordshire benefitting In the short term, as announced on 10 September, we from funded early education. have allocated £250 million of funding to NHS England No data are available on the number of children to help cope with winter pressures (with another likely to be eligible for a funded place in each individual £250 million for 2014-15). This money will be distributed constituency. by NHS England to the areas that need it most in 2013-14 and to be targeted as follows: School Meals £221 million for the 53 NHS areas identified as high risk; Alison McGovern: To ask the Secretary of State for £15 million to help pay for extra capacity for NHS 111, with the aim of lessening pressure on A&E; and Education what steps he is taking to maximise the use of locally (a) grown and (b) supplied foods in schools; £14 million as a contingency. and whether the introduction of universal free school Longer term, under our vulnerable older people’s meals in infant schools will include requirements or plan, we are looking to improve care for the more frail incentives to utilise such products. [170408] and elderly through better primary care and integration of health and social care. The £3.8 billion Integration Elizabeth Truss: In July 2013 the Secretary of State Transformation fund will focus on joining up health for Education, my right hon. Friend the Member for and care services, helping some of the most vulnerable Surrey Heath (Michael Gove), published the School patients to stay healthier and treating them closer to Food Plan, the outcome of a 12-month independent home. review of school food. The plan’s ’Headteacher checklist’ In addition, the Department’s arm’s length bodies recommends that schools use local and seasonal suppliers. are engaged in addressing the issues highlighted by the We are testing, and will consult on, a set of revised report. For example, Monitor is currently consulting on food-based standards. The draft published in the plan changes to the marginal tariff and Health Education says that wherever possible foods should be prepared England is addressing work force shortages in emergency from fresh, locally-sourced ingredients. medicine. We are currently considering our policies in light of the Deputy Prime Minister’s announcement on free Allergies school meals for all infant pupils. Toby Perkins: To ask the Secretary of State for Teachers Health which recommendations of the Royal College of Physicians’ report entitled, Allergy: the unmet need, John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for published in 2003, have been implemented. [170846] Education what proportion of teachers are currently neither qualified nor in training. [170210] Norman Lamb: Following the publication of the Royal College of Physicians’ (RCP) report into allergy services Mr Laws: The full-time equivalent proportion of in 2003, the Department worked with national health teachers in service in publicly funded schools in England service stakeholders to review the available data and that did not have qualified teacher status (QTS) and research on allergy conditions and services. The Department were not on an employment-based route to QTS was published the results of that work in July 2006 in: A 1 2.9% in November 2012. The source of the information Review of services for allergy: The epidemiology, demand is the School Workforce Census, November 2012 and is for and provision of treatment and effectiveness of the most recent available. clinical interventions, a copy of which has been placed 1 This percentage represents the proportion of the teaching workforce in the Library. size. This report accepted in principle many of the 2 This is down from 3.3% in 2010 and 4.3% in 2005 . recommendations of the original RCP report, in particular 2 Source: the principle that any solutions to problems around 618g Survey, January 2010 and 618g Survey, January 2005 allergy provision must be local, and based on need. 699W Written Answers15 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 700W

Since April 2013, it has been the responsibility of Cancer local commissioners to determine the need for allergy services in their area. Mr George Howarth: To ask the Secretary of State In the Mandate, NHS England is being asked to for Health when the sub-group of the specialised make measurable progress towards making the NHS cancer CRG which is scoping out current indications among the best in Europe at supporting people with for molecular testing in patients will be (a) appointed ongoing health problems to live healthily and independently, and (b) operational. [170422] with much better control over the care they receive. This objective includes people with allergies. It is the role of Jane Ellison: NHS England’s Molecular Diagnostic NHS England to give serious consideration as to how Testing Group has been appointed and is operational. they will support the commissioning system to deliver The group is currently scoping their work and identifying these outcomes. priorities. Ambulance Services: Greater Manchester Cardiovascular System: Diseases

Lucy Powell: To ask the Secretary of State for Health David Morris: To ask the Secretary of State for how many patients in Greater Manchester with Health what steps he is taking to raise awareness of non-urgent hospital appointments have waited for over temporal arteritis. [170240] two hours for an ambulance since April 2013. [170217] Norman Lamb: The Government recognises that the Jane Ellison: The information is not available centrally. early recognition and diagnosis of temporal arteritis, Information on performance can be obtained from also known as giant cell arteritis (GCA), is paramount. the local commissioners, Blackpool Clinical Commissioning The importance of prompt diagnosis of GCA is Group (CCG). underlined in both the undergraduate medical curriculum Blackpool CCG leads on the commissioning of and in post-graduate training for general practitioners ambulance services on behalf of the 33 CCGs across (GPs) and relevant hospital specialists. the north-west. To support additional awareness of the condition, there are a number of clinical guidelines that are available Lucy Powell: To ask the Secretary of State for Health on GCA, including the Royal College of Physicians (1) how many patients in Greater Manchester with guideline on GCA. This provides a framework for disease non-urgent hospital appointments have been taken to assessment, immediate treatment and referral to specialist hospital in a taxi because no ambulances were available care. since April 2013; [170218] (2) how much has been spent by Greater Manchester Furthermore, both the British Society for Rheumatology Ambulance service on taxis for patients since April and the British Health Professionals in Rheumatology published guidelines on the management of polymyalgia 2013. [170223] rheumatica, a related condition, for GPs and Jane Ellison: The information is not available centrally. rheumatologists. The guidelines encourage the prompt Blackpool Clinical Commissioning Group (CCG) may diagnosis and urgent management of GCA, therefore hold the relevant information. minimising vision loss. Blackpool CCG leads on the commissioning of The National Institute for Health and Care Excellence’s ambulance services on behalf of the 33 CCGs across Clinical Knowledge Summaries service also provides the north-west. primary care practitioners with a readily accessible summary of best practice in respect of GCA. Lucy Powell: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Both the NHS Choices and Patient UK websites how many complaints about Arriva Transport provide information including the signs and symptoms Solutions have been received by Greater Manchester of the condition for patients. Ambulance service in each month since April 2013. [170219] Care Quality Commission

Jane Ellison: This information is not available centrally. David Morris: To ask the Secretary of State for Blackpool Clinical Commissioning Group (CCG) may Health how much has been paid by the Government in hold the relevant information. severance packages to former Care Quality NHS England advise that Blackpool CCG works Commission executives since May 2010; when such closely with Arriva to performance manage the contract payments were made; and who authorised each such and address any concerns. payment. [170241]

Ambulance Services: Liverpool Norman Lamb: The Care Quality Commission (CQC) is the independent regulator of health and adult social Steve Rotheram: To ask the Secretary of State for care providers in England. Health how many ambulances have been in operation in the Liverpool city-region in each of the last five The CQC has provided the following information: years. [170495] Since May 2010, the CQC has paid a combined total of £782,571 to four executive directors who have left the Jane Ellison: This information is not available centrally. organisation. For the purpose of this response, the The North West Ambulance Service NHS Trust (NWAS) CQC has calculated ‘severance’ to include all redundancy provides ambulance services in the Liverpool area, and and payment in lieu of notice payments. No ex gratia the information may be obtained from NWAS directly. payments have been made to departing executive directors 701W Written Answers15 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 702W during this period. Pension costs, or payment in lieu of Responsibility for determining the overall national contractually accrued annual leave, have not been included approach to improving clinical outcomes from health in this calculation. care services lies with NHS England. The payments were made within a month of the date It is for individual clinical commissioning groups of departure of each of the executive directors. Those (CCGs) to commission treatment and services for patients were Gary Needle in June 2010, Louise Guss and Amanda on long-term warfarin or other medications which require Sherlock in June 2013, and Philip King in September monitoring, as they are best placed to identify what is 2013. needed in their local areas. It is the responsibility of All of the payments were authorised by the Department NHS England to support CCGs and ensure that they of Health. are safely and effectively discharging their commissioning responsibilities, and are making progress in delivering Charcot Marie Tooth Disease outcomes. This support may include providing supportive commissioning resources, tools or guidance. Jim Shannon: To ask the Secretary of State for Gabapentin Health (1) how many people were diagnosed with Charcot-Marie-Tooth disease in the UK in each of the last three years; [170751] Andrew Percy: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what assessment his Department has made of (2) whether specific funding is ringfenced for the the availability of the drug gabapentin at UK treatment of Charcot-Marie-Tooth disease. [170752] pharmacies. [170886]

Norman Lamb: NHS Choices estimates that there are Norman Lamb: There are currently some shortages of 23,000 sufferers in the United Kingdom. We are unable some strengths of gabapentin in the United Kingdom. to identify the number of people with a diagnosis of However, we understand that stocks are generally available Charcot-Marie-Tooth (CMT) disease in the UK in each and that manufacturers have further deliveries due this of the last three years. The reason for this is that the week. data collected is grouped under ’Hereditary motor and sensory neuropathy’, which includes but is not limited General Practitioners to CMT disease. Arrangements for the development and operation of the neurology dataset will be matters Mr Andrew Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for for NHS England to determine. It has committed to Health what assessment he has made of the costs to GP working with the service to increase the amount of data practices of informing patients of the disclosure of flowing within the NHS to support clinical commissioners data and their rights to withhold information under the in driving continuous improvements in quality in both care.data arrangements. [170434] secondary and primary care. There is currently no specific funding ring-fenced for Dr Poulter: General practitioners (GPs), as data the treatment of Charcot-Marie-Tooth disease. controllers, have legal responsibilities under the Data Protection Act 1998 for ensuring that patients are aware Continuing Care of how their information is used and shared. This is not a new requirement or cost for GP practices. Making Jim Dobbin: To ask the Secretary of State for Health sure patients understand about how their information is (1) what assessment he has made of the costs to the used and the benefits is an issue of good practice. NHS of people on long-term warfarin having to attend NHS England has been working closely with the regular GP or hospital appointments for simple blood Information Commissioners Office and will shortly be tests; [170545] making an announcement about further national awareness (2) what assessment he has made of the potential raising plans to help raise patient awareness and to annual cost savings to the NHS of people with diabetes support GP practices. being able to self-monitor their blood glucose levels; [170546] Health Services (3) what steps he is taking to ensure that all clinical commissioning groups have policies in place allowing Tessa Munt: To ask the Secretary of State for Health people on long-term warfarin to (a) self-test their INR (1) whether NHS England has the authority to transfer levels and (b) self-managed their warfarin therapy if a patient’s care from one NHS provider to another if they choose to do so. [170547] the patient is satisfied with his or her current provider; [170414] Mr Virendra Sharma: To ask the Secretary of State (2) what assessment he has made of the for Health what steps will be taken to encourage compatibility of the decision of NHS England to greater use of and support for self-monitoring in transfer brain tumour patients undergoing treatment at clinical commissioning groups across England. [170266] the National Hospital for Neurology and Neurosurgery to another provider with his Jane Ellison: No assessment has been made by the Department’s policy on patient choice. [170420] Department or NHS England of the costs to the national health service of people on long-term warfarin having Jane Ellison: Brain tumour patients requiring stereotactic to attend regular general practitioner or hospital radiosurgery or stereotactic radiotherapy services may appointments for simple blood tests or of the potential access treatment from any provider with whom NHS annual cost savings to the NHS of people with diabetes England holds a contract for Stereotactic Radiosurgery being able to self-monitor their blood glucose levels (including Gamma Knife) services. In London this includes 703W Written Answers15 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 704W the BUPA Cromwell Hospital and Barts Health NHS Provision of information to 350,000 charities and voluntary Trust. Referring consultants have been advised that groups who have been asked to cascade the information to their they can refer patients to either of these providers or an members. alternative choice of contracted and accredited provider Mr Andrew Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for for stereotactic radiosurgery as appropriate. Health what consultation he has undertaken with the NHS England has developed a range of clinical public and GPs over the introduction of the care.data commissioning policies outlining its routine commissioning system. [170505] position for a range of stereotactic radiosurgery treatments. These are available on NHS England’s website at: Dr Poulter: NHS England and the Health and Social www.england.nhs.uk/resources/spec-comm-resources/npc-crg/ Care Information Centre have worked closely with the group-d/d05/ British Medical Association and with the Royal College Patients have a legal right to choice over hospital and of General Practitioners during the process of developing consultant team (as long as they provide the service the proposals for care.data. NHS England have published patient is being referred for) when referred for their first joint guidance and materials for GP practices as a out-patient appointment. After that they should be result. involved in decisions over their clinical care but do not Information about the programme has been sent to have the same legal right of choice that exists in the first over 350,000 patient groups, charities, and voluntary referral unless they are not treated within 18 weeks (or organisations. In addition, NHS England has held a seen within two weeks for suspected cancer referrals). series of meetings with patient groups and other interested Hospitals: Food parties. Meetings have been held for example with the Association of Medical Research Charities, Cancer Alison McGovern: To ask the Secretary of State for Research UK and the British Heart Foundation. This is Health what steps he is taking to maximise the use of an on-going exercise and further meetings will be held locally (a) grown and (b) supplied food in NHS with patient groups and charities to seek their views on hospitals. [170407] the design and implementation of care.data. Dr Poulter: National health service trusts have Mental Illness: Housing Benefit responsibility for setting their own policy of food procurement and sourcing. Under the current regulations Jonathan Ashworth: To ask the Secretary of State for governing public procurement, it is not permitted to Health if his Department will commit to greater discriminate against suppliers on the grounds of geographic investment in housing-related support for people with location. mental health problems. [170687] However, NHS organisations are central to their communities and have a role to play in stimulating local Norman Lamb: The Care and Support Specialised economic growth and jobs. It is important that opportunities Housing Fund announced by the Department in July exist for local enterprises to compete for business, and 2012 is intended to support and accelerate the development that the NHS considers the social, economic and of the specialised housing market including investing in environmental benefits when contracting for public services. specialised housing for people with mental health conditions. The Department actively promotes the use of In Phase 1 of the scheme, £131 million has been allocated Government Buying Standards for Food and Catering to build 3,500 specialised homes nationally and includes Services (Food GBS) which includes advice on sustainable a number of examples for people with mental health food procurement. Currently, 50% of all hospitals report conditions, including a scheme, in Hackney for people that they are fully compliant with Food GBS, with a with mental health conditions who need on-going support further 25% actively working towards compliance. after a period in hospital or residential care. The scheme provides tenants with personalised care and support, In 2012, of fresh produce supplied to the NHS through provided by a range of services, and has a strong focus NHS Supply Chain contracts, 64.5% was produced in on promoting independence. the United Kingdom, and this proportion is forecast to increase for 2013. We are currently working to develop how future allocations of the fund will work, including how we will In addition to this, ’Sustainable Food: A Guide for ensure a greater inclusion of specialised and suitable Hospitals’ provides guidance for trusts on procurement. housing for people with mental health conditions. Medical Records: Databases NHS: Cost Effectiveness Mr Andrew Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what steps his Department is taking to publicise Mr Jamie Reed: To ask the Secretary of State for the implications for patients of the introduction of the Health what steps his Department takes to ensure that care.data system. [170503] no NHS trust cost improvement plan is implemented without a full quality impact assessment having been Dr Poulter: NHS England and the Health and Social conducted. [170831] Care Information Centre are supporting general practitioners with awareness raising on care.data through Jane Ellison: The NHS Trust Development Authority a range of regional and national activities. seeks assurance that cost improvement plans for national These include: health service trusts have been quality impact assessed Resources and guidance including patient information materials; and that finance, activity, work force and quality information Digital media, for example, dedicated patient support pages on have been considered together to help ensure any decisions the NHS Choices website, including a lead article on the front taken on efficiency savings do not adversely affect the page signposting citizens to information. The site receives over 20 quality of care provided for patients, or the ability for million hits a month; and staff to do their job effectively. 705W Written Answers15 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 706W

Mr Jamie Reed: To ask the Secretary of State for negotiation by each clinical commissioning group (CCG). Health what discussions he has had with NHS England Area teams work with CCGs to ensure that they are and other groups on quality impact assessments of meeting the planning guidance as part of their oversight trust cost improvement plans. [171014] role. Obesity Jane Ellison: This is not a matter for NHS England but for the NHS Trust Development Authority (NHS Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Health TDA). The NHS TDA works with trusts to ensure that how many finished admission episodes involving cost improvement plans have been quality impact assessed patients with an obesity-related illness there were in and that finance, activity, work force and quality information each of the last three financial years; and what the (a) have been considered together to ensure any decisions gender and (b) age group of each such patient was. taken on efficiency savings do not adversely affect the quality of care provided for patients, or the ability for [170533] staff to do their job effectively. Jane Ellison: The Health and Social Care Information Centre (HSCIC) has provided a count of finished admission Mr Jamie Reed: To ask the Secretary of State for episodes1 with a primary diagnosis of obesity2 by gender Health how many clinical commissioning groups have and by age for 2009-10 to 2011-12. This information is completed a quality impact assessment of their NHS provided in the following tables. trust cost improvement plans in each region. [171015] Gender 2009-10 2010-11 2011-12 Jane Ellison: These data are not collected centrally. Male 2,533 2,977 3,053 NHS England would expect area teams to have been Female 8,181 8,762 8,849 overseeing this and provider contract improvement plans Unknown 2 1 3 will have been reviewed as an integral part of contract

Age group 2009-10 2010-11 2011-12

0-9 223 158 133 10-19 564 518 519 20-29 768 836 856 30-39 2,225 2,264 2,199 40-49 3,503 3,888 3,726 50-59 2,381 2,773 3,059 60-69 849 1,047 1,194 70-79 165 213 155 80+ 35 33 45 Unknown 3 10 19 1 A finished admission episode (FAE) is the first period of in-patient care under one consultant within one healthcare provider. FAEs are counted against the year or month in which the admission episode finishes. Admissions do not represent the number of in-patients,’ as a person may have more than one admission within the period. 2 The primary diagnosis is the first of up to 20 (14 from 2002-03 to 2006-07 and seven prior to 2002-03) diagnosis fields in the Hospital Episode Statistics (HES) data set and provides the main reason why the patient was admitted to hospital. Notes: 1. Assessing growth through time (in-patients). HES figures are available from 1989-90 onwards. Changes to the figures over time need to be interpreted in the context of improvements in data quality and coverage (particularly in earlier years), improvements in coverage of independent sector activity (particularly from 2006-07) and changes in NHS practice. For example, changes in activity may be due to changes in the provision of care. 2. Data quality. HES are compiled from data sent by more than 300 NHS trusts and primary care trusts (PCTs) in England and from some independent sector organisations for activity commissioned by the English NHS. HSCIC liaises closely with these organisations to encourage submission of complete and valid data and seeks to minimise inaccuracies. While this brings about improvement over time, some shortcomings remain.

Obesity: Surgery Jane Ellison: The Health and Social Care Information Centre (HSCIC) has provided a count of finished admission episodes1 with a primary diagnosis of obesity2 and a Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Health main or secondary operative procedure3 of bariatric how many people in each (a) socio-economic, (b) surgery by index of multiple deprivation (IMD) decile4, ethnic and (c) age-group underwent weight-loss patient ethnic group and patient age group for 2009-10 operations in each of the last three financial years. to 2011-12. This information is provided in the following [170534] tables.

IMD decile group (patients living in the least deprived 10% of the country through to those living in the most deprived 10%) 2009-10 2010-11 2011-12

Least deprived 10% 335 404 417 Less deprived 10-20% 480 490 536 Less deprived 20-30% 483 591 555 Less deprived 30-40% 538 648 664 Less deprived 40-50% 684 716 768 More deprived 40-50% 652 812 903 707W Written Answers15 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 708W

IMD decile group (patients living in the least deprived 10% of the country through to those living in the most deprived 10%) 2009-10 2010-11 2011-12

More deprived 30-40% 787 940 972 More deprived 20-30% 1,036 1,148 1,266 More deprived 10-20% 1,116 1,219 1,457 Most deprived 10% 1,063 1,087 1,224 Unknown 112 135 145

Ethnic group 2009-10 2010-11 2011-12

British (White) 5,236 5,943 6,466 Irish (White) 42 42 48 Any other White background 261 273 280 White and Black Caribbean (Mixed) 19 32 35 White and Black African (Mixed) 9 10 11 White and Asian (Mixed) 10 9 15 Any other Mixed background 23 33 ¦ 34 Indian (Asian or Asian British) 71 67 81 Pakistani (Asian or Asian British) 34 43 50 Bangladeshi (Asian or Asian British) 12 12 9 Any other Asian background 34 40 44 Caribbean (Black or Black British) 137 153 201 African (Black or Black British) 91 98 118 Any other Black background 129 131 143 Chinese (other ethnic group) 2—— Any other ethnic group 67 98 116 Not known 118 247 286 Not stated 991 959 970

Age group 2009-10 2010-11 2011-12

10-19 34 37 44 20-29 588 621 677 30-39 1,753 1,792 1,846 40-49 2,707 3,054 3,060 50-59 1,706 2,058 2,390 60-69 473 604 829 70-79 23 18 40 80+ —— 2 Unknown 2619 1 A finished admission episode (FAE) is the first period of in-patient care under one consultant within one healthcare provider. FAEs are counted against the year or month in which the admission episode finishes. Admissions do not represent the number of in-patients, as a person may have more than one admission within the period. 2 The primary diagnosis is the first of up to 20 (14 from 2002-03 to 2006-07 and seven prior to 2002- 03) diagnosis fields in the Hospital Episode Statistics (HES) data set and provides the main reason why the patient was admitted to hospital. 3 The number of episodes where the procedure (or intervention) was recorded in any of the 24 (12 from 2002-03 to 2006-07 and four prior to 2002-03) procedure fields in a HES record. A record is only included once in each count, even if the procedure is recorded in more than one procedure field of the record. Note that more procedures are carried out than episodes with a main or secondary procedure. 4 The socio-economic group used is derived from the Index of Multiple Deprivation (IMD). IMD is a measure of multiple deprivation which ranks the relative deprivation of each area of England in a number domains (such as crime and income) and then combines the individual scores to produce a . composite score for each area. The patient’s residential postcode is then mapped to one of these areas, and summarised into 10 groups for presentation. Further information is available at: www.gov.uk/government/publications/english-indices-of-deprivation-2010 Note: Assessing growth through time (in-patients): HES figures are available from 1989-90 onwards. Changes to the figures over time need to be interpreted in the context of improvements in data quality and coverage (particularly in earlier years), improvements in coverage of independent sector activity (particularly from 2006-07) and changes in NHS practice. For example, changes in activity may be due to changes in the provision of care. 2. Data quality. HES are compiled from data sent by more than 300 NHS trusts and primary care trusts in England and from some independent sector organisations for activity commissioned by the English NHS. HSCIC liaises closely with these organisations to encourage submission of complete and valid data and seeks to minimise inaccuracies. While this brings about improvement over time, some shortcomings remain.

Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Health main or secondary operative procedure3 of bariatric (1) how many people under the age of 18 had each type surgery by procedure group for patients aged under 18 of surgical treatment for obesity in each of the last five at time of admission and the age of the youngest person financial years; [170535] to be admitted for 2007-08 to 2011-12. (2) what the youngest age of a patient who underwent surgical treatment for obesity was in each of 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 2011-12 the last five years. [170536] Type of procedure Jane Ellison: The Health and Social Care Information Centre (HSCIC) has provided a count of finished admission Gastric bypass 2 6545 episodes1 with a primary diagnosis of obesity2 and a Gastric band 4 3425 709W Written Answers15 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 710W

Every suicide is a tragedy and our thoughts remain 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 2011-12 with the families of all those who have sadly taken their Gastric ———11own lives. Suicide among members of the armed forces bubble/ remains extremely rare and is lower than comparative balloon rates in the civilian population. Stomach —11—1 staples Medical experts and clinicians working in our armed forces and across the national health service are committed Youngest 16 15 15 16 14 to providing the best possible care for all those who recorded age have served their country and to ensuring a smooth 1 A finished admission episode (FAE) is the first period of in-patient care transition from the armed forces into civilian life for under one consultant within one health care provider: FAEs are counted those who leave. This includes improving the transfer of against the year or month in which the admission episode finishes. Admissions do not represent the number of inpatients, as a person may have more than medical records on discharge to provide better continuity one admission within the period. of care for veterans, and providing mental health 2 The primary diagnosis is the first of up to 20 (14 from 2002-03 to 2006-07 assessments prior to their discharge. Letters are also and seven prior to 2002-03) diagnosis fields in the Hospital Episode Statistics (HES) data set and provides the main reason why the patient was admitted to included in NHS medical notes stating when personnel hospital. have been under military medical care, and these remain 3 The number of episodes where the procedure (or intervention) was recorded visible in NHS systems when the NHS takes over in any of the 24 (12 from 2002-03 to 2006-07 and four prior to 2002-03) procedure fields in a HES record. A record is only included once in each responsibility for their care as veterans. count, even if the procedure is recorded in more than one procedure field of The implementation of the recommendations contained the record. Note that more procedures are carried out than episodes with a main or secondary procedure. within the Murrison report ‘Fighting Fit’ has assisted in Notes: the significant and long-term effort to raise awareness 1. Assessing growth through time (in-patients), HES figures are available from of a broad range of mental health issues and providing 1989-90 onwards. Changes to the figures over time need to be interpreted in the context of improvements in data quality and coverage (particularly in mechanisms through which, both serving personnel and earlier years), improvements in coverage of independent sector activity veterans can seek assistance. (particularly from 2006-07) and changes in NHS practice. For example, changes in activity may be due to changes in the provision of care. 2. Data quality. HES are compiled from data sent by more than 300 NHS trusts and primary care trusts in England and from some independent sector organisations for activity commissioned by the English NHS. HSCIC liaises closely with these organisations to encourage submission of complete and COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT valid data and seeks to minimise inaccuracies. While this brings about improvement over time, some shortcomings remain. Affordable Housing Prosthetics Graham Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Tessa Munt: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Communities and Local Government (1) what steps he how many (a) military and ex-military primary is taking to prevent financial viability assessments amputees, (b) civilian primary amputees, (c) military being used to circumvent local authority affordable and ex-military established amputees and (d) civilian housing targets; [170154] established amputees there are in England. [170231] (2) what assessment he has made of the use of financial viability assessments by construction Dr Poulter: The Ministry of Defence (MOD), companies to circumvent local authority affordable Department of Health and NHS England do not hold housing targets. [170155] information on the number of veterans that have had an amputation since leaving the armed forces and do Nick Boles: Across the country there are stalled not hold information on primary and established amputees development sites that are unable to bring forward who have left the service. MOD advise that for the much needed local growth and housing, including housing period October 2001 to June 2013 there have been 365 at an affordable level. To facilitate the release of such service personnel who have suffered a traumatic or sites, the Growth and Infrastructure Act 2013 brought surgical amputation. Of these 217 are still in service of in measures to enable developers to apply to local which 185 are primary amputees and 32 established. authorities to review the affordable housing requirements 148 of the 365 are now veterans, the breakdown between of any Section 106 agreement where this is a critical primary, and established amputees is not known. factor in site viability. The review must be based on Data on the number of civilian amputees are not held robust evidence of economic viability and can only centrally. address the affordable housing requirements of the planning consent. Where a Section 106 agreement pre-dates Suicide: Armed Forces April 2010 or is over five years old, an application may also be made to modify the agreement. Appeal processes Jim Shannon: To ask the Secretary of State for are in place where applications to amend Section 106 Health what discussions he has had with the Secretary agreements are refused, or not determined in due time. of State for Defence on the number of suicides Appeals are a measure of last resort if local authorities amongst service personnel and veterans. [170754] and developers have been unable to voluntarily renegotiate agreements. Dr Poulter: Ministers from the Department of Health As part of the National Planning Practice Guidance, and Ministry of Defence meet on a regular basis to the Government has provided clear guidance to developers discuss a wide range of issues relating to the health and and local authorities on this issue, which can be found wellbeing of service personnel and veterans (including at: mental health issues). The issue of suicides has been http://planningguidance.planningportal.gov.uk/blog/ discussed. guidance/ 711W Written Answers15 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 712W

Section 106 agreements should be directly related to Fire Services: Retirement the development and fairly and reasonably related in scale and in kind. Unrealistic and financially unviable Mr Ainsworth: To ask the Secretary of State for Section 106 agreements result in no development, no Communities and Local Government what assessment regeneration and no community benefits: a sensible he has made of the effects of the proposed changes to review can result in more housing and more affordable the retirement age of firefighters on their ability housing. to fulfil an operational, on the pump, role up to retirement age; what roles will be undertaken by Graham Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for firefighters aged 55 to 60 who are no longer able to Communities and Local Government what steps he is crew frontline appliances under those proposals; and taking to ensure that local authority affordable housing what redeployment opportunities exist across the Fire targets are met. [170267] Service for such firefighters. [170835]

Kris Hopkins: There are no top-down housing targets Brandon Lewis: An independent review into the Normal any more. Councils have an obligation to assess and Pension Age for firefighters, conducted by Dr Tony meet housing need including affordable housing. The Williams, found: National Planning Policy Framework makes clear that “Based on current practices of setting a standard of 42 mL.kg.min-1 Councils should assess the scale and mix of housing VO2max but allowing firefighters to remain operational at a and the range of tenures that the local population is 35 mL.kg.min-1 VO2max would ensure that 100% of firefighters likely to require, including the need for affordable housing. who remain physically active will still be operational at age 60 assuming they remain free from injury and disease.” Councils should then use this evidence base to ensure that their Local Plan meets the full, objectively assessed Paragraph 11.2.3, Normal Pension Age for Firefighters: A needs for market and affordable housing, as far as is Review for the Firefighters’ Pension Committee. consistent with the policies set out in the Framework. A Normal Pension Age of 60 has existed since 2006 for new recruits to the fire and rescue service. Currently one Local authorities, when negotiating affordable housing in three firefighters already has a retirement age of 60. contributions to Section 106 agreements, should take into account the overall viability of the scheme to Redeployment of firefighters to other roles is the ensure that the proposed development can be delivered responsibility of individual fire and rescue authorities. on the ground. This contributes to local economic Fracking growth and housing delivery, including at an affordable level. Unrealistic Section 106 agreements result in no development, no regeneration and no community benefits; Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for a sensible review can result in more housing and more Communities and Local Government for what reason affordable housing. he proposes to change the regulations for onshore oil and gas planning applications to remove the duty to Over 150,000 affordable homes have been delivered in notify people under whose land developers propose to England over the last three years. Over 84,000 homes drill. [169935] have already been delivered under the current Affordable Homes programme which invests £19.5 billion of public, Nick Boles: The Government has not proposed removing and private funding on affordable housing over this the duty for applicants to notify landowners about spending review period. A further £23 billion will deliver underground operations under their property. However, 165,000 new affordable homes between 2015 and 2018. we have proposed changing how applicants are required This is the fastest annual rate of building for at least to give notice. This is in recognition the different nature 20 years. of underground operations for exploration and extraction of oil and gas. More detailed information is set out in the proposals paper published on 2 September, which Domestic Fire Safety (Wales) Measure 2011 may be found at: https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/revised- Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for requirements-relating-to-planning-applications-for-onshore- Communities and Local Government what discussions oil-and-gas he has had with officials and Ministers in the Welsh Shale gas has the potential to provide the UK with Government in the last 12 months on the Domestic greater energy security, growth and jobs. As the shale Fire Safety (Wales) Measure 2011. [170436] gas industry develops, we want to ensure an effective locally led planning system is in place. The technical Brandon Lewis: Ministers have had no direct discussions changes we have been consulting on will provide greater with the Welsh Assembly Government on this matter in clarity in law, give certainty to councils and encourage the last 12 months. However, officials from my Department investment. and those from the Assembly are in regular contact on a Housing: Construction range of technical and procedural matters including those associated with the Domestic Fire Safety (Wales) Julian Sturdy: To ask the Secretary of State for Measure 2011. Communities and Local Government what powers he I would add that a copy of a letter from the Secretary has to ensure that local planning authorities’ estimates of State to Ann Jones AM on regulation on the housing of the need for additional houses in their area are market in Wales is available at: based on accurate estimates of that need; and what https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/ steps he is empowered to take if such estimates are attachment_data/file/203574/Ann_Jones_MP.pdf found to be inaccurate. [169745] 713W Written Answers15 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 714W

Nick Boles: The National Planning Policy Framework Number of hereditaments on the rating sets out that local planning authorities should prepare a Metropolitan district list on 30 September 2012 Strategic Housing Market Assessment to ensure that their local plan meets the full, objectively assessed needs Bolton 9,337 for housing. Bury 5,592 Manchester 23,361 The Local Plan is subject to a public examination in Oldham 7,326 front of an independent inspector. This will include Rochdale 6,546 testing any housing numbers proposed in the plan and Salford 10,273 checking that the council’s proposals are supported by Stockport 9,953 a robust evidence base. Following the examination, the Tameside 7,105 inspector reports either that the plan is sound and can Trafford 9,185 be adopted or that the plan is unsound and should be Wigan 9,067 withdrawn. Total 97,745 An updated and clear methodology for assessing development needs for housing is contained in our new Please note that not all of these hereditaments will be online planning guidance suite, launched in test mode paying full national non-domestic rates as some will be for public comment on 28 August. receiving rate relief. The data are taken from the 2013-14 National Non- Incinerators: Planning Permission Domestic Rates 1 (NNDR1) forms completed annually by billing authorities in England and returned to the Mr Hollobone: To ask the Secretary of State for Department for Communities and Local Government. Communities and Local Government if he will extend The data are publicly available to download in the to prospective waste incinerator developments the Statistics section of the DCLG website: package of measures and planning guidelines https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/non-domestic- announced in connection with onshore wind farm rates-collected-by-local-councils-in-england-forecast-for- applications in his statement of 6 June 2013, Official 2013-to-2014 Report, columns 113-5WS, on onshore wind (local (b) As outlined in the written ministerial statement planning). [170952] of 18 September 2012, Official Report, column 32WS, my Department no longer publishes statistics by Kris Hopkins: We have made clear our intention to Government office region. Local authority figures from introduce compulsory pre-application consultation for which regional estimates can be calculated can be found the more significant wind farm applications. We are at: keeping under review the case for using the powers https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/ introduced by the Localism Act for other types of attachment_data/file/80245/NNDR1_2013- development, and encourage pre-application consultation 14_Drop_Down.xls with local communities for waste management facilities. Piers My Department is also reviewing waste planning policy and accompanying guidance to provide a positive Peter Aldous: To ask the Secretary of State for planning framework to enable local authorities to put Communities and Local Government what funds his forward planning strategies that deliver new waste Department makes available to refurbish privately- management facilities of the right type, in the right owned seafront piers. [170425] place and at the right time. We want to provide an easily understood policy framework which can be followed by Brandon Lewis: The Department does not provide local authorities, waste developers and local communities funds specifically for the refurbishment of privately-owned alike. seaside piers. They may be eligible for support from the As outlined in the written statement of 29 July 2013, Coastal Communities Fund provided they can show Official Report, House of Lords, column WS162, the that any improvements will deliver economic growth updated policy proposes to strengthen protection of the and job creation and not breach EU State Aid rules. Green Belt and take into account the abolition of Hastings Pier and Clevedon Pier were successful in top-down Regional Strategies. securing grants from the Fund earlier this year. The Fund’s next bidding round is due to open in early 2014. Non-domestic Rates: North West Planning Permission: Appeals

Lucy Powell: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Nigel Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government how many Communities and Local Government what total cost businesses in (a) Greater Manchester and (b) the has been incurred by local authorities in presenting a North West were liable to pay business rates in the last defence in planning appeals which have resulted in their financial year. [170224] initial decisions being overturned by the planning inspector since 2010. [170702] Brandon Lewis: The information is as follows: Nick Boles: This information is not collected centrally. (a) The number of hereditaments on the rating list on 30 September 2012, the latest date for which we have Mr Nigel Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for information, for each of the 10 metropolitan districts Communities and Local Government how many comprising the Greater Manchester area are given as planning appeals have resulted in local authority follows. decisions being overturned by the planning inspector in 715W Written Answers15 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 716W

(a) Ribble Valley constituency, (b) Lancashire and (c) for each fiscal year from April 2010. For the current the UK since 2010. [170703] year only figures for the first quarter are available.

Nick Boles: The following table shows the percentage of planning appeals (ie S78 and HAS) that were allowed

Ribble Valley Lancashire England Period Decided Allowed % allowed Decided Allowed % allowed Decided Allowed % allowed

2010-11 8 4 50 298 102 34 15,828 5,194 ’33 2011-12 18 12 67 327 114 35 14,512 5,028 35 2012-13 19 6 32 255 89 35 13,484 4,761 35 2013-14 (Q1) 8 2 25 67 29 43 3,024 1,060 35

I would add that these figures refute the suggestion Letter from Caron Walker, dated October 2013: that the National planning Policy Framework would As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I lead to planning by appeal. have been asked to reply to your recent Parliamentary Question asking what the average real wage level in Wales was in each month since May 2010. (170607) CABINET OFFICE The Annual Survey of Hours and Earnings (ASHE), carried out in April each year, is the most comprehensive source of Average Earnings: Wales earnings information in the United Kingdom. Weekly levels of earnings are estimated from ASHE, and are provided for employees on adult rates of pay, whose earnings for the survey pay period Chris Ruane: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet were not affected by absence. Figures are available only for the Office what the average real wage level in Wales was in month of April in each of the years from 2010. each month since May 2010. [170607] The table shows estimates of median gross weekly earnings in Wales from 2010 to 2012, the latest period for which results are Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the available, at cash prices and re-valued at 2012 prices by using the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have Consumer Prices Index as a price deflator, Figures are provided asked the authority to reply. for part-time employees, full-time employees and all employees.

Median gross weekly earnings for employees1 in Wales between April 2010 and April 2012, at cash prices and at constant prices Cash prices (£) Constant (2012) prices (£) Year (April) Part-time Full-time All Part-time Full-time All

2010 150.3 450.8 364.2 161.8 485.1 391.9 20112 150.5 454.4 366.5 155.0 468.1 377.6 20113 150.6 451.3 362.3 155.1 464.9 373.2 2012 150.4 452.6 361.3 150.4 452.6 361.3 1 Employees on adult rates whose pay for the survey pay-period was not affected by absence. 2 2011 results based on Standard Occupational Classification 2000. 3 2011 results based on Standard Occupational Classification 2010. Guide to quality: The coefficient of variation (CV) indicates the quality of a figure; the smaller the CV value, the higher the quality. The true value is likely to lie within +/- twice the CV—for example, for an average of 200 with a CV of 5%, we would expect the population average to be within the range 180 to 220. The cash price earnings estimates in the table all have coefficients of variation which are between 0% and 5%. It has not been possible to calculate the coefficients of variation for the constant price earnings estimates. The Consumer Prices Index has been used to deflate the ASHE earnings estimates. Source: Annual Survey of Hours and Earnings (ASHE), Office for National Statistics

Civil Service Quarterly Employment: Wrexham

Ian Lucas: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office Andrew Percy: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet how many people employed in Wrexham were Office (1) how many copies of the July 2013 edition of employed in (a) the public sector and (b) the private Civil Service Quarterly were printed; and how much sector in each of the last five years for which records this edition cost the public purse to produce’ [170887] are available. [170957] (2) what assessment he has made of the annual cost of Civil Service Quarterly. [170890] Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have asked the authority to reply. Mr Maude: Civil Service Quarterly is primarily an Letter from Joe Grice to Ian Lucas, dated October 2013: online publication, and can be found at: In the absence of the Director General for the Office for https://quarterly.blog.gov.uk National Statistics (0NS), I have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question to the Minister for the Cabinet Office The cost of producing the first issue of Civil Service asking how many people employed in Wrexham were employed in Quarterly, including printing costs, was £5,990. Future (a) the public sector and (b) the private sector in each of the last editions will likely cost around the same. five years for which records are available. (170957) 717W Written Answers15 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 718W

Employment statistics for local areas are calculated from the Annual Population Survey (APS). Rating SCS distribution (%) Table 1 shows the number of people aged 16 years and over, Top 25.6 who were employed in the public or private sectors resident in Achieving 63.9 Wrexham constituency. These estimates are compiled from APS Low 10.6 interviews held during the period July 2012 to June 2013, the latest period available, and the 12 month periods ending in Voting Rights: Commonwealth December from 2008 to 2012. As with any sample survey, estimates from the APS are subject Mr Frank Field: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet to a margin of uncertainty. A guide to the quality of the estimates Office if he will bring forward legislative proposals to is given in the table. enable the right to vote in UK elections to be removed National and local area estimates for many labour market from citizens of specified Commonwealth countries. statistics, including employment, unemployment and claimant [170851] count are available on the NOMIS website at: http://www.nomisweb.co.uk Greg Clark: The franchise for UK elections is set out Table 1: Number of people aged 16 and over employed in the public and private in the Representation of People Act 1983. Under the sectors1, resident in Wrexham constituency Act, British, Republic of Ireland and qualifying Thousand Commonwealth citizens are entitled to register to vote 12 months ending: Public Private in UK parliamentary elections, local elections, and European elections assuming that all other registration December 2008 10 25 criteria are also met. For the purposes of registering to December 2009 11 25 vote, a qualifying Commonwealth citizen is an individual December 2010 10 24 who either does not need leave to enter or remain in the December 2011 9 24 United Kingdom, or who does need such leave and has December 2012 7 24 it. June 20133 ***8 **25 — = not available The right of resident Commonwealth citizens to vote 1 Individuals in the APS are classified to the public or private sector according in UK elections reflects our close and valued historical to their responses to the survey. ties with the Commonwealth countries. The Government 2 People who were employed but have not provided enough information to be accurately included in either the public or private sectors. has no current plans to remove the voting rights of 3 Coefficients of Variation have been calculated for the latest period as an Commonwealth citizens. indication of the quality of the estimates. See Guide to Quality below. Guide to Quality: The Coefficient of Variation (CV) indicates the quality of an estimate, the smaller the CV value the higher the quality. The true value is likely to lie within DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER +/- twice the CV—for example, for an estimate of 200 with a CV of 5% we would expect the population total to be within the range 180-220. City Deal Key: * 0 = CV<5%—Statistical Robustness: Estimates are considered precise **5=CV<10%—Statistical Robustness: Estimates are considered reasonably 7. Lorely Burt: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister precise what assessment he has made of the implementation of *** 10 = CV <20%—Statistical Robustness: Estimates are considered acceptable the City Deal for Greater Birmingham and Solihull. **** CV = 20%—Statistical Robustness: Estimates are considered too unreliable for practical purposes [900476] CV = Coefficient of Variation Source: Greg Clark: The implementation of the Greater Annual Population Survey Birmingham and Solihull City Deal is proceeding well, with the Government, and local civic and business Performance Appraisal leaders working effectively to ensure that commitments are carried out. These include over 1,300 new apprenticeships now Mrs Lewell-Buck: To ask the Minister for the available and a boost to life sciences through the Cabinet Office what proportion of (a) disabled and Institute of Translational Medicine at Birmingham (b) all other staff employed by his Department university. received each level of performance rating in their end of year performance assessment for 2012-13. [170470] 10. Simon Wright: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister what progress has been made on a City Deal for Norwich. [900480] Mr Maude: The overall ratings for Cabinet Office staff are set out in the following tables. Disability declaration Greg Clark: Following the signature of the Preston rates are too low to be statistically significant and thus and Lancashire City Deal last month I am working are not included. The distribution of those that have with a number of other, cities to negotiate City Deals declared is broadly in line with the overall distribution. to devolve powers to create jobs and economic success. I am meeting with Norwich Civic and business Overall distribution for staff below Rating SCS (%) leaders on Thursday as part of that negotiation.

Low 1.1 Electoral Register Satisfactory 12.1 Mr Crausby: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister Good 33.4 which local authorities have submitted bids for funding Potentially strong 4.7 to assist with the implementation of individual Strong 35.8 electoral registration; and how much funding each Star 13 authority has received. [170449] 719W Written Answers15 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 720W

Greg Clark: The Government has been clear that it significantly advance the process of decentralisation, will fully fund the transition to individual electoral unleash the potential of local economies, strengthen registration. partnerships with industry and foster economic This April the Government made payments to all growth. relevant authorities across the country to cover the cost Royal Charters of the transition in this financial year (2013-14). The total sum paid was £2,992,186. Jacob Rees-Mogg: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister A number of local authorities have submitted when the last occasion was on which a royal charter requests for additional funding for 2013-14. These bids was issued without being preceded by a petition from are currently being assessed, and following ministerial, the body requesting a royal charter. [170849] approval, LAs should be notified whether they have been successful shortly. The Deputy Prime Minister: The last state sponsored Initial allocations for 2014-15 will be set out in a charter was in 2007 (The Institute of Educational letter to electoral registration offices/chief executives Assessors). In the case of state sponsored charters, a shortly. petition is not required as the royal charter is usually Lord Heseltine Review the mechanism for creating or establishing the new body. Mr Hollobone: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister Voting Rights: Commonwealth what assessment he has made of the implementation of the Heseltine Review in (a) England, (b) the East Nicholas Soames: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister Midlands and (c) Northamptonshire. [170892] what the most recent UK legislation on Commonwealth voting rights is; and what plans the Michael Fallon: I have been asked to reply on behalf Government has to bring forward proposals to amend of the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills. that legislation. [170841] The Government published its response to ‘No Stone Unturned’ by Lord Heseltine in March 2013. Greg Clark: The franchise for UK elections is set out That response accepted in full or in part 81 out of Lord in the Representation of People Act 1983. Under the Heseltine’s 89 recommendations. Act, British, Republic of Ireland and qualifying Central to the Government’s response was a Commonwealth citizens are entitled to register to vote commitment to create a Local Growth Fund (LGF) in in UK parliamentary elections, local elections, and England from 2015, including over £2 billion of European elections assuming that all other registration budgets from skills, housing and transport for 2015-16. criteria are also met. For the purposes of registering to Funds will be allocated from the LGF as part of vote, a qualifying Commonwealth citizen is an Growth Deals, which are being negotiated with every individual who either does not need leave to enter or Local Economic Partnership (LEP), including those in remain in the United Kingdom, or who does need such the East Midlands. As part of this, LEPs are currently leave and has it. developing Strategic Economic Plans and will share The right of resident Commonwealth citizens to vote their first drafts with Government in December. in UK elections reflects our close and valued historical The Government continues to take forward the ties with the Commonwealth countries. The wide-ranging recommendations as part of the usual Government has no current plans to remove the voting policy process, to ensure we rise to the challenge to rights of Commonwealth citizens.

5MC Ministerial Corrections15 OCTOBER 2013 Ministerial Corrections 6MC

Number of CoS used in support of Tier 5 visa applications issued by Ministerial Corrections top 50 sponsors from 1 January 2010 to 31 December 2012 Number Tuesday 15 October 2013 Sponsoring organisation 2010 2011 2012 Total 21 Tin Angel Productions 270 385 430 1,740 Ltd 22 IMG Artists (UK) Ltd 400 265 395 1,730 HOME DEPARTMENT 23 Victor Hochhauser 440 330 — 1,540 24 AEG Live (UK) Ltd 265 335 320 1,520 Entry Clearances 25 GTI Recruiting 155 340 430 1,420 Solutions Sir James Paice: To ask the Secretary of State for the 26 Hidden Talent Booking 295 305 190 1,390 Home Department how many certificates of sponsorship 27 SJM Concerts Ltd 275 320 155 1,345 for tier 5 visas have been issued by each sponsoring 28 Warner Music (UK) Ltd 225 315 240 1,320 body in each of the last three years. [158968] 29 Serious Ltd 225 270 315 1,305 [Official Report, 25 June 2013, Vol. 565, c. 167-8W.] 30 ATP Concerts Ltd 315 190 290 1,300 Letter of correction from Mark Harper: 31 Academy of Medical 170 290 350 1,270 Royal Colleges An error has been identified in the written answer 32 Caroline Dunkley DJ 85 305 475 1,255 given to the right hon. Member for South East and Artist Management Cambridgeshire (Sir James Paice) on 25 June 2013. 33 Lattitude Global 250 260 225 1,245 The full answer given was as follows: Volunteering 34 Youth With A Mission 210 270 240 1,195 Mr Harper [holding answer 10 June 2013]: We are Ltd unable to provide the data regarding all tier 5 sponsors 35 Sony Music 210 200 305 1,120 as the low volume of certificates issued by a third of Entertainment UK Ltd them would make it possible to identify individuals or 36 Upset The Rhythm 180 250 215 1,080 personal data. 37 British Council 250 190 200 1,080 (Language Assistants) The following table shows how many certificates of 38 Academy Music Group 195 235 175 1,035 sponsorship (CoS) for tier 5 visas have been issued by 39 Southbank Centre 190 190 260 1,020 the top 50 sponsors in each of the last three years. This 40 Free Trade Organisation 215 175 235 1,015 information has also been placed in the House Library. 41 Ecorys UK Ltd 250 150 150 950 Number of CoS used in support of Tier 5 visa applications issued by 42 Feld Entertainment UK 165 185 230 930 top 50 sponsors from 1 January 2010 to 31 December 2012 Ltd Number 43 T&S Immigration — 195 535 925 Sponsoring organisation 2010 2011 2012 Total Services Ltd 44 Kennedy Street 175 185 190 910 1 The Agency Group Ltd 1,450 1,755 1,710 8,120 Enterprises Ltd 2 The Underworld 1,000 1,190 1,330 5,715 45 Bob Paterson Agency/ 135 175 285 905 3 Creative Artists Agency 840 1,015 1,115 4,825 BPA Live UK Ltd 46 Mountbatten 190 180 160 905 4 Live Nation (Music) UK 795 705 1,065 4,065 Programmes Ltd Ltd 47 The Law Society of 160 180 200 880 5 Gricind Ltd T/A ITB 925 655 555 3,720 England and Wales 6 William Morris 610 800 735 3,560 48 Elastic Artists Agency 165 160 225 875 Endeavor Entertainment Ltd (UK) Ltd 49 CME Artist Services 35 160 400 790 7 Culture Arts Ltd 705 705 555 3,370 50 British Council 75 170 280 770 8 X-R Touring LLP 750 640 540 3,325 (Erasmus Programme) 9 Bunac 490 660 905 3,205 Notes: 10 Universal Music 620 585 590 3,000 1. The figures quoted have been derived from management information Operations Ltd and are therefore provisional and subject to change. This information 11 Primary Talent 545 445 600 2,575 has not been quality assured under National Statistics protocols. International Ltd 2. Figures relate to Certificates of Sponsorship issued to applicants by sponsoring bodies, and used in support of tier 5 visa applications. 12 P & IAS Ltd 380 620 565 2,570 3.Figuresroundedtothenearest5(—=0,*=1or2)andmaynot 13 Godolphin Management 355 540 635 2,425 sum to the totals shown because of independent rounding. Company Ltd The correct answer should have been: 14 Askonas Holt 495 380 495 2,245 15 The Church of Jesus 445 415 480 2,200 Mr Harper [holding answer 10 June 2013]: We are Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Great Britain) unable to provide the data regarding all tier 5 sponsors 16 Coda Music Agency 360 510 455 2,200 as the low volume of certificates issued by a third of LLP them would make it possible to identify individuals or 17 Mean Fiddler Holdings 330 445 560 2,110 personal data. Ltd The following table shows how many certificates of 18 Classical Events Ltd 590 280 180 1,920 sponsorship (CoS) for tier 5 visas have been issued by 19 3a Entertainment Ltd 390 370 375 1,895 the top 50 sponsors in each of the last three years. This 20 Sadler’s Wells Trust Ltd 440 405 185 1,880 information has also been placed in the House Library. 7MC Ministerial Corrections15 OCTOBER 2013 Ministerial Corrections 8MC

Number of CoS used in support of Tier 5 visa applications issued by Number of CoS used in support of Tier 5 visa applications issued by top 50 sponsors from 1 January 2010 to 31 December 2012 top 50 sponsors from 1 January 2010 to 31 December 2012 Number Number Sponsoring organisation 2010 2011 2012 Total Sponsoring organisation 2010 2011 2012 Total

1 The Agency Group Ltd 1,450 1,755 1,710 4,915 39 Southbank Centre 190 190 260 640 2 The Underworld 1,000 1,190 1,330 3,525 40 Free Trade Organisation 215 175 235 625 3 Creative Artists Agency 840 1,015 1,115 2,970 41 Academy Music Group 195 235 175 605 UK Ltd 42 Bob Paterson Agency/BPA 135 175 285 595 4 Live Nation (Music) UK 795 705 1,065 2,565 Live Ltd 43 CME Artist Services 35 160 400 595 5 William Morris Endeavor 610 800 735 2,150 44 Feld Entertainment UK Ltd 165 185 230 580 Entertainment (UK) Ltd 45 Elastic Artists Agency Ltd 165 160 225 550 6 Gricind Ltd T/A ITB 925 655 555 2,140 46 Kennedy Street Enterprises 175 185 190 550 7 Bunac 490 660 905 2,055 Ltd 8 Culture Arts Ltd 705 705 555 1,960 47 Ecorys UK Ltd 250 150 150 550 9 X-R Touring LLP 750 640 540 1,935 48 The Law Society of 160 180 200 540 10 Universal Music 620 585 590 1,795 England and Wales Operations Ltd 49 Mountbatten Programmes 190 180 160 535 11 Primary Talent 545 445 600 1,585 Ltd International Ltd 50 British Council (Erasmus 75 170 280 525 12 P & IAS Ltd 380 620 565 1,570 Programme) 13 Godolphin Management 355 540 635 1,530 Notes: Company Ltd 1. The figures quoted have been derived from management information 14 Askonas Holt 495 380 495 1,370 and are therefore provisional and subject to change. This information has not been quality assured under National Statistics protocols. 15 The Church of Jesus Christ 445 415 480 1,340 2. Figures relate to Certificates of Sponsorship issued to applicants by of Latter-Day Saints sponsoring bodies, and used in support of tier 5 visa applications. (Great Britain) 3.Figuresroundedtothenearest5(—=0,*=1or2)andmaynot 16 Mean Fiddler Holdings Ltd 330 445 560 1,335 sum to the totals shown because of independent rounding. 17 Coda Music Agency LLP 360 510 455 1,330 18 3a Entertainment Ltd 390 370 375 1,135 19 Tin Angel Productions Ltd 270 385 430 1,085 WALES 20 IMG Artists (UK) Ltd 400 265 395 1,065 Carbon Emissions 21 Classical Events Ltd 590 280 180 1,050 22 Sadler’s Wells Trust Ltd 440 405 185 1,035 23 GTI Recruiting Solutions 155 340 430 925 David T. C. Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for 24 AEG Live (UK) Ltd 265 335 320 920 Wales how much has been spent by his Department on offsetting costs for energy-related carbon dioxide in the 25 Caroline Dunkley DJ and 85 305 475 865 Artist Management last year for which figures are available. [169510] 26 Serious Ltd 225 270 315 810 [Official Report, 8 October 2013, Vol. 568, c. 22W.] 27 Academy of Medical Royal 170 290 350 810 Letter of correction from Stephen Crabb: Colleges An error has been identified in the written answer 28 ATP Concerts Ltd 315 190 290 795 given to the hon. Member for Monmouth (David T. C. 29 Hidden Talent Booking 295 305 190 790 Davies) on 8 October 2013. 30 Warner Music (UK) Ltd 225 315 240 780 31 Victor Hochhauser 440 330 — 770 The full answer given was as follows: 32 SJM Concerts Ltd 275 320 155 750 Stephen Crabb: Nil. The Wales Office’s carbon credits 33 Lattitude Global 250 260 225 735 Volunteering are bought by the Ministry of Justice (MOJ). The Wales 34 T&S Immigration Services — 195 535 730 Office element of the MOJ’s carbon credits for 2011-12 Ltd was 0.02% which equates to £389.64. 35 Youth With A Mission Ltd 210 270 240 715 The correct answer should have been: 36 Sony Music Entertainment 210 200 305 710 UK Ltd Stephen Crabb: Nil. The Wales Office’s carbon credits 37 Upset The Rhythm 180 250 215 650 are bought by the Ministry of Justice (MOJ). The Wales 38 British Council (Language 250 190 200 640 Office element of the MOJ’s carbon credits for 2011-12 Assistants) was 0.02% of £389.64. ORAL ANSWERS

Tuesday 15 October 2013

Col. No. Col. No. ATTORNEY-GENERAL ...... 591 DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER ...... 577 Criminal Sentences...... 596 Electoral Register...... 579 Exit Payouts (CPS)...... 595 Political Party Funding ...... 581 Human Trafficking ...... 597 Returning Officers Fees...... 580 Rape and Domestic Violence Prosecutions ...... 591 Third Party Campaign Expenditure...... 577 Vulnerable Witnesses...... 593 Topical Questions ...... 583 WRITTEN STATEMENTS

Tuesday 15 October 2013

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS...... 45WS HOME DEPARTMENT...... 51WS Business-led Taskforce on EU Regulation Justice and Home Affairs Council...... 51WS (Report) ...... 45WS Foreign Affairs Council ...... 45WS JUSTICE...... 55WS Office of the Public Guardian...... 55WS TREASURY ...... 46WS DEFENCE...... 48WS ECOFIN (13-14 September) ...... 46WS HMS Illustrious ...... 48WS ECOFIN (15 October)...... 47WS Tax Information Exchange (Oriental Republic of Uruguay)...... 48WS FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 49WS Foreign Affairs Council/General Affairs Council... 49WS WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 56WS Private Security Providers Association Launch ...... 50WS Office for Nuclear Regulation ...... 56WS WRITTEN ANSWERS

Tuesday 15 October 2013

Col. No. Col. No. ATTORNEY-GENERAL ...... 655W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT— Bosnia and Herzegovina ...... 655W continued Courts: Clothing ...... 655W Planning Permission: Appeals...... 714W Performance Appraisal ...... 655W Social Services...... 656W Witnesses ...... 656W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 657W Broadcasting: Internet ...... 657W BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 683W Flags ...... 658W Central Sussex College...... 683W Performance Appraisal ...... 658W Conditions of Employment...... 683W Tourism: India ...... 657W Dietary Supplements...... 684W World War II: Medals ...... 657W Students ...... 684W Students: Finance ...... 685W DEFENCE...... 632W Students: Loans ...... 687W Afghanistan ...... 632W UK Export Finance ...... 687W Armed Forces: Absence Without Leave ...... 633W Armed Forces: Employment ...... 634W CABINET OFFICE...... 715W Armed Forces: Rangers Football Club...... 634W Average Earnings: Wales...... 715W Bullying...... 635W Civil Service Quarterly ...... 715W Carbon Emissions...... 635W Employment: Wrexham ...... 716W Energy...... 635W Performance Appraisal ...... 717W Gulf States...... 636W Voting Rights: Commonwealth...... 718W Historical Enquiries Team ...... 636W Libya...... 637W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 710W Lighting ...... 637W Affordable Housing...... 710W Military Aircraft ...... 637W Domestic Fire Safety (Wales) Measure 2011 ...... 711W Military Bases: Yorkshire and the Humber ...... 638W Fire Services: Retirement ...... 712W Performance Appraisal ...... 638W Fracking...... 712W Redundancy...... 638W Housing: Construction...... 712W Sustainable Development...... 639W Incinerators: Planning Permission...... 713W Unmanned Air Vehicles ...... 639W Non-domestic Rates: North West...... 713W Unmanned Air Vehicles: Northern Ireland ...... 639W Piers...... 714W Warships: Procurement ...... 640W Col. No. Col. No. DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER ...... 718W HEALTH—continued City Deal ...... 718W Suicide: Armed Forces ...... 709W Electoral Register...... 718W Lord Heseltine Review...... 719W HOME DEPARTMENT...... 640W Royal Charters...... 720W Antisocial Behaviour: Greater Manchester ...... 640W Voting Rights: Commonwealth ...... 720W Asylum ...... 641W Asylum: Finance...... 641W EDUCATION...... 696W Capita ...... 642W Adoption: Northumberland...... 696W Detainees: Overseas Students...... 642W Engineering Employers Federation ...... 696W Driving under Influence: Drugs ...... 643W Grace Academy Coventry ...... 696W Entry Clearances...... 644W Languages: GCE A-level...... 696W Entry Clearances: Married People ...... 644W Pre-school Education: Staffordshire...... 697W Firearms: Seized Articles ...... 645W School Meals ...... 697W Hillsborough Independent Panel...... 645W Teachers...... 697W HM Inspectorate of Constabulary ...... 646W Immigration...... 646W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 688W Immigration: Appeals ...... 646W Carbon Emissions...... 688W Immigration: Public Consultation...... 647W Energy Companies Obligation ...... 688W Marriage: Fraud...... 649W Energy: Prices ...... 689W Members: Correspondence ...... 649W EU Emissions Trading Scheme: Cement ...... 689W Narendra Modi...... 649W Green Deal Scheme...... 690W Offences against Children ...... 650W Insulation: Cannock Chase ...... 690W Passports: Scotland...... 650W Performance Appraisal ...... 690W Police ...... 650W Redundancy...... 691W Police: Dismissal ...... 652W Renewable Heat Incentive Scheme ...... 691W Police Service of Northern Ireland...... 651W Wind Power ...... 692W Redundancy...... 652W Suicide: Wrexham ...... 653W ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL Xiu Xing Wang ...... 653W AFFAIRS...... 692W Yarl’s Wood Immigration Removal Centre...... 653W Bovine Tuberculosis ...... 692W Carbon Emissions...... 693W INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 663W Dairy Farming ...... 693W Himalayas ...... 663W Horses...... 694W Pakistan ...... 663W Marine Conservation Zones...... 694W Palestinians ...... 663W Performance Appraisal ...... 694W Performance Appraisal ...... 664W Slaughterhouses: Animal Welfare ...... 695W Syria...... 664W Trout...... 695W JUSTICE...... 676W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 665W Archaeology: Licensing...... 676W Buildings...... 665W Council Tax: Non-payment...... 677W Egypt ...... 666W Courts...... 677W Gibraltar...... 667W Courts: Buildings ...... 678W Kieron Bryan ...... 667W Legal Aid Scheme ...... 678W Laos...... 668W National Tactical Response Group ...... 678W Libya...... 669W Personal Injury: Compensation...... 681W North Korea ...... 669W Prisoners: Foreign Nationals...... 681W Performance Appraisal ...... 670W Prisoners’ Transfers...... 681W Syria...... 671W Richard III...... 682W Western Sahara ...... 671W Scrap Metal Dealers Act 2013...... 682W

HEALTH...... 698W NORTHERN IRELAND ...... 631W Accident and Emergency Departments ...... 698W Disclosure of Information ...... 631W Allergies ...... 698W Ambulance Services: Greater Manchester...... 699W PRIME MINISTER...... 631W Ambulance Services: Liverpool...... 699W Hillsborough Independent Panel ...... 631W Cancer ...... 700W Sri Lanka ...... 631W Cardiovascular System: Diseases ...... 700W Care Quality Commission...... 700W SCOTLAND...... 654W Charcot Marie Tooth Disease ...... 701W Dover House...... 654W Continuing Care ...... 701W Performance Appraisal ...... 655W Gabapentin ...... 702W General Practitioners ...... 702W TRANSPORT ...... 659W Health Services ...... 702W Car Tax...... 659W Hospitals: Food ...... 703W Channel Tunnel Railway Line ...... 659W Medical Records: Databases ...... 703W Large Goods Vehicles ...... 659W Mental Illness: Housing Benefit ...... 704W Level Crossings ...... 660W NHS: Cost Effectiveness ...... 704W Marchwood Military Port...... 660W Obesity...... 706W Public Transport: Rural Areas...... 660W Obesity: Surgery...... 705W Railways: Fares ...... 661W Prosthetics...... 709W Rescue Services ...... 661W Col. No. Col. No. TRANSPORT—continued WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 672W Rescue Services: Fylde ...... 661W Disability Living Allowance...... 672W Rescue Services: Liverpool...... 662W Employment and Support Allowance ...... 672W Employment Schemes: Young People...... 673W TREASURY ...... 631W Housing Benefit ...... 673W Currencies...... 631W Housing Benefit: Social Rented Housing ...... 673W Financial Services: Somalia...... 632W Housing Benefit: Young People...... 673W National Insurance Contributions ...... 632W Jobcentre Plus ...... 674W Taxation: Germany ...... 632W Jobseeker’s Allowance...... 674W Occupational Pensions: North West...... 674W WOMEN AND EQUALITIES...... 662W Social Security Benefits...... 676W Members: Females ...... 662W Voluntary Work ...... 676W Performance Appraisal ...... 662W Work Programme...... 676W MINISTERIAL CORRECTIONS

Tuesday 15 October 2013

Col. No. Col. No. HOME DEPARTMENT ...... 5MC WALES...... 8MC Entry Clearances...... 5MC Carbon Emissions...... 8MC Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. The Bound Volumes will also be sent to Members who similarly express their desire to have them. No proofs of the Daily Reports can be supplied. Corrections which Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked in the Daily Report, but not telephoned, and the copy containing the Corrections must be received at the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

not later than Tuesday 22 October 2013

STRICT ADHERENCE TO THIS ARRANGEMENT GREATLY FACILITATES THE PROMPT PUBLICATION OF THE VOLUMES

Members may obtain excerpts of their Speeches from the Official Report (within one month from the date of publication), on application to the Stationery Office, c/o the Editor of the Official Report, House of Commons, from whom the terms and conditions of reprinting may be ascertained. Application forms are available at the Vote Office.

PRICES AND SUBSCRIPTION RATES DAILY PARTS Single copies: Commons, £5; Lords, £4. Annual subscriptions: Commons, £865; Lords, £600. LORDS VOLUME INDEX obtainable on standing order only. Details available on request. BOUND VOLUMES OF DEBATES are issued periodically during the session. Single copies: Commons, £105; Lords, £60 (£100 for a two-volume edition). Standing orders will be accepted. THE INDEX to each Bound Volumeof House of Commons Debates is published separately at £9·00 and can be supplied to standing order. All prices are inclusive of postage Volume 568 Tuesday No. 55 15 October 2013

CONTENTS

Tuesday 15 October 2013

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 577] [see index inside back page] Deputy Prime Minister Attorney-General

Regulation of the Private Rented Sector [Col. 599] Motion for leave to bring in Bill—(Jeremy Corbyn)—agreed to Bill presented, and read the First time

Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill [Col. 602] As amended, further considered; read the Third time and passed

Deep Sea Mining Bill (Ways and Means) [Col. 701] Motion—(Mr Swire)—agreed to

Petitions [Col. 702]

Welsh Assembly Legislation (Attorney-General) [Col. 705] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall Driver and Vehicle Agency (Northern Ireland) [Col. 173WH] Health Services (North-West London) [Col. 195WH] Greener Road Transport Fuels [Col. 204WH] Sentencing Tariffs (Offences Against Animals) [Col. 226WH] Protecting Older People from Fraud (Wales) [Col. 233WH] Debates on motion for Adjournment

Written Statements [Col. 45WS]

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 631W] [see index inside back page]

Ministerial Corrections [Col. 5MC]