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1 5-13-2021 - Gas Planning Procedures - 20-G-0131
2 STATE OF NEW YORK
3 PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION
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5 CASE 20-G-0131 - Proceeding on Motion of the
6 Commission in Regard to Gas Planning Procedures.
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8 PUBLIC STATEMENT HEARING
9 DATE: May 13, 2021 at 5:00 p.m.
10 LOCATION: WebEx
11 PRESIDING: ALJ MICHAEL CLARKE
12 ALJ JAMES COSTELLO
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2 APPEARANCES:
3 JOSEPH WHITE SANGEETHA KAILAS 4 DIANE BURMAN
5 SARA SCHULTZ 6 LEE ZIESCHE 7 AMBER RUTHER MARGOT SPINDELMAN 8 JOHN RAFF SARAH HESS 9 CAROL CHOCK HEATHER STANTON 10 JEANNE BERGMAN ELLEN WEININGER 11 CLARKE GOCKER WENDY HIJOS 12 ROBERT WOOD LISA MARSHALL 13 BARBARA HERTEL 14 RICHARD BERKLEY ANN FINNERAN 15 ELISA EVETT DELIA FARGUHARSON 16 VANESSA AGUDELO
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2 A.L.J. CLARKE: Thank you. I call
3 Case 20-G-0131, Proceeding on Motion of the
4 Commission, in Regard to Gas Planning Procedures.
5 Good evening and welcome.
6 We are here today for a public
7 statement hearing, that was noticed on April 19th,
8 2021. Today’s hearing is to receive comment on two
9 proposals that were filed in this proceeding by the
10 Department of Public Service Staff, the Gas System
11 Planning Process Proposal and the Moratorium
12 Management Proposal. Both proposals were filed on
13 February 12th of this year and are currently under
14 consideration by the Public Service Commission.
15 My name is Michael Clarke and I am an
16 administrative law judge for the Department of Public
17 Service. Administrative Law Judge James Costello is
18 also present and together, we are responsible for
19 presiding over today’s hearing. We are joined by
20 Sangeetha Kailas and Joseph White of the Department’s
21 Office of Consumer Services, as well as the court
22 reporter, who will prepare a transcript of the
23 hearing. The transcript will be included in the
24 official record of this proceeding and made available
25 on the Department of Public Service website.
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2 The statements you make today, will be
3 transcribed and become part of the case record, so
4 they can be considered by the Public Service
5 Commission, in connection with any action it takes on
6 Staff’s proposals. The Commission currently has
7 four members, the interim Chairperson, John B. 8 Howard and three Commissioners, Diane Burman, James
9 Alesi and Tracey Edwards. We are fortunate this
10 evening, to have Commissioner Burman joining us.
11 Would you like to say a few words, Commissioner
12 Burman? MS. BURMAN: Thank you. I just wanted
13 to welcome everyone to this proceeding. My role
14 tonight is really to be a listener. I will be
15 listening and I’m happy to be a part of this gas
16 planning procedure. Thank you.
17 A.L.J. CLARKE: Thank you,
18 Commissioner Burman. I have some general comments
19 and then I’ll briefly explain the process we’ll be
20 following today. As I stated earlier, the purpose of
21 today’s hearing, is to provide you with an
22 opportunity to tell the Commission your thoughts on
23 D.P.S. Staff’s proposals. This is not an evidentiary
24 hearing or a question and answer session but rather
25 -- rather a forum to hear your comments. 5
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2 This is not, however, the only
3 opportunity for you to comment. If you did not
4 register to speak here today but would nonetheless
5 like your views to be considered by the Commission,
6 you can submit comments on the Department’s website,
7 by email or regular mail or by phone. All comments
8 will be given equal consideration, regardless of how
9 they are submitted.
10 I will call people who have registered
11 to speak one-by-one. If someone is not available
12 when I call them, I will move on to the next person
13 and come back later in the hearing to anyone who was
14 not originally available.
15 For the people who have registered
16 electronically, we will unmute your line after we
17 call your name. You should hear a tone and see that
18 the microphone icon on your screen is no longer red.
19 For telephone participants, when I call out your
20 name, I will ask you to press star three on your
21 phone, so we can recognize you and unmute your line.
22 It may take us a moment to do this, so please be
23 patient and do not begin speaking until after you’ve
24 been notified that your line is unmuted. After you
25 have provided your statement, I may ask you to press
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2 star three again, so we can more easily locate the
3 next speaker.
4 When your line is unmuted, please
5 state your name and if you are speaking on behalf of
6 an organization, the name of the organization. Once
7 I confirm we can hear you, you can proceed to make
8 your comments. Please speak slowly and clearly, so
9 that the court reporter can accurately capture your
10 statement for the record.
11 To the extent that you have a lengthy
12 written statement, please just provide an oral
13 summary today and follow-up with submission of the
14 full written statement by email or regular mail.
15 Because of the number of people who
16 have registered to speak, we request that you try to
17 limit your statement to about three minutes. Please
18 remember, that if you’ve muted the line on your end,
19 you will also have to unmute yourself before you
20 begin to talk.
21 Okay. We’re going to get started. I
22 apologize in advance for mispronouncing anyone’s
23 name. Our first speaker is Vanessa Agudelo.
24 MS. KAILAS: Vanessa, if you have
25 called in to attend this hearing, please press star
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2 three on your phone, so I can locate you. I don’t
3 see any raised hands, Your Honor.
4 A.L.J. CLARKE: Okay. We’ll move onto
5 Delia Farquharson, also a phone-in user.
6 MS. KAILAS: Delia, if you have -- if
7 you are attending this hearing by calling in, please
8 press star three on your phone, so you may raise your
9 hand and I can locate you. Thank you.
10 A.L.J. CLARKE: Okay. As we’re not
11 seeing any raised hands, I’m going to move to the
12 registered speakers that we can tell are present.
13 We’ll begin with Ms. Sara Schultz.
14 MS. SCHULTZ: Can you hear me?
15 A.L.J. CLARKE: We can.
16 MS. SCHULTZ: Great. The P.S.C.’s
17 Department of Public Service gas planning process
18 proposal --
19 A.L.J. CLARKE: Ms. -- Ms. Schultz,
20 I’m sorry to interrupt you but will you please just
21 identify yourself for the record?
22 MS. SCHULTZ: Oh, sure, Sara Schultz.
23 I actually Chair the C.R. called Sierra Club 24 Niagara Group up here in Western New York.
25 A.L.J. CLARKE: Thank you very much. 8
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2 MS. SCHULTZ: Sure. The P.S.C.’s
3 Department of Public Service Gas Planning Process
4 Proposal, even with a significant improvements to
5 avoid new gas growth, does not give us a clear path
6 to phasing out fracked gas. We must go beyond just
7 slowing down gas expansion. Business as usual, will
8 cost New Yorkers billions of dollars, due to climate
9 disruption. These disruptions are already happening
10 in every part of the country.
11 In 2020, the U.S. had 22 separate
12 billion dollar weather and climate disasters. These
13 included tropical cyclones, severe storms, drought
14 and wildfires, to a combined cost of 95 billion
15 dollars in damages and it doesn’t even include
16 disasters that were under a billion dollars.
17 Also, according to NOAA, we have had
18 the seven hottest years since 2014. NOAA unveiled
19 what the new normal will be, compared to the 20th
20 century. Since 1901 to 1930, the first period of
21 climate and norms calculations, the Continuous U.S.
22 has warmed 1.6 degrees ... one degree Celsius. The
23 largest jumps have been in the last two 30 year
24 periods. Interestingly, Fairbanks, Alaska is not
25 even classified as a sub-arctic region anymore.
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2 Some regions will be wetter; some will
3 be much dryer. The National Climate Assessment
4 Report, predicts a dire future for the Great Lakes,
5 particularly Lake Erie, which I live on, due to
6 worsening storms, increased erosion and algae ... to
7 higher water temperatures and ag runoff. Other
8 problems, due to climate change in New York, already
9 are more vector-borne diseases, severe winter storms
10 also and obviously, flooding, due to an ocean rising.
11 To meet the goals of the C.L.C.P.A.,
12 the Commission must be visionary, transparent and
13 cooperative, with the Climate Action Council, as well
14 as the electric sector. So, the electricity is
15 renewable, affordable and reliable. Thank you for
16 your time.
17 A.L.J. CLARKE: Thank you, Ms.
18 Schultz. Our next speaker will be, Leigh Ziesche.
19 You’re unmuted and please identify yourself for the
20 record.
21 MS. ZIESCHE: Hi. Thank you. Hi, my
22 name is Leigh Ziesche. I am an organizer with Sane
23 Energy Project. We represent 13,000 New Yorkers
24 across the State. In addition to being very active
25 in this proceeding, we’ve also been very active in
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2 National Grid’s downstate rate case and also the
3 proceeding, looking into their disastrous moratorium.
4 For decades, Sane has gotten people to
5 attend public hearings. We’ve actually pretty
6 generally packed these kind of public hearings and
7 give people the confidence and things they need to
8 participate and we did not do that today. We
9 actually did not recruit anybody to attend this
10 because we believe that it would be a waste of their
11 time. And, the reason why I want the Public Service
12 Commission and D.P.S. to look at those two cases that
13 we have been very involved in. During the public
14 hearings for the moratorium case, New York State
15 allowed National Grid to present very absurd plans
16 for fracked gas, like an LNG port, while actually not
17 presenting plans that National Grid was moving
18 forward with two LNG vaporizers in a community that
19 has been absolutely devastated by fossil fuel
20 pollution.
21 Then New York State let National Grid
22 lie to people about the North Brooklyn pipeline,
23 about the potential for radon and gas. And, I just
24 want to remind you, that this -- these hearings in
25 the National Grid moratorium case, were happening as
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2 COVID was absolutely ravaging our communities in
3 early spring of last year. And, so people took the
4 time to -- to -- to speak out during these hearings
5 and people submitted thousands and thousands of
6 comments against any new fracked gas infrastructure.
7 And, instead of making a public decision about that,
8 the Public Service Commission then allowed the State
9 and National Grid to go back into confidential
10 settlement negotiations in the rate case.
11 So, what we did was, then we trained a
12 bunch of people to participate in that rate case.
13 But, unfortunately we’ve had to walk away from
14 negotiations and I can’t really say much about why
15 because they’re confidential. But, what we’ve said,
16 was that because infrastructures keep being built and
17 so, you know, the plan that you’ve put forward in the
18 white paper, it looks very similar to what happened
19 during the National Grid moratorium case. And, I’m
20 wondering how you expect anyone to have any faith in
21 this process, when thousands of comments have been
22 ignored in the moratorium case; when thousands of
23 comments have been ignored so far in the rate case.
24 You know, during that technical --
25 technical conference, there was a woman who asked us
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2 to make suggestions on environmental justice. Well,
3 look at the thousands of comments that are in the
4 rate case right now, asking the State to stop
5 allowing National Grid to go to dirty frack gas
6 pipeline, in black and brown communities. Stop them
7 -- preventing their LNG expansion in black and brown
8 communities. We have completely lost faith in the
9 Public Service Commission and we are -- if you want
10 us to have faith in -- in any kind of proposal moving
11 forward, you need to start by listening to the
12 thousands of comments that are in this case, the 200
13 plus elected officials that have weighed in and so
14 far have been ignored because our demand is very
15 simple. We want to plan to get off gas. We want a
16 plan that matches the State’s climate laws, which was
17 one of the initial goals of this proceeding. And,
18 right now, we just don’t have any faith that is --
19 that -- that’s possible.
20 So, it’s really on the Commission and
21 D.P.S. to start listening to people. And, don’t
22 think that just because we’re not going to be
23 engaging in some of these proceedings, that people
24 aren’t putting forth a ton of energy, to make our
25 climate goals a reality. We’re just going to start
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2 putting our energy in, to completely up -- up-
3 throwing this entire system and building one that is
4 democratic. And, just to let you know, we are very
5 closely paying attention, onto who’s on the side of
6 the people and who’s listening to climate science.
7 So, please go back and -- and listen to what’s
8 already been put on the record and -- and show us
9 that if you want us to participate in these
10 proceedings moving forward, that you are listening to
11 people who have commented, particularly black, brown,
12 indigenous people of color, working class
13 communities, who have been poisoned by the
14 infrastructure that you’ve been approving for
15 decades. Thank you.
16 A.L.J. CLARKE: Thank you, Ms.
17 Ziesche. Our next speaker will be, Amber Ruther.
18 MS. RUTHER: Hello, can you hear me?
19 A.L.J. CLARKE: Yes, we can.
20 MS. RUTHER: Hi, my name is Amber
21 Ruther and I work at Alliance for a Green Economy,
22 which advocates for a just transition to safe,
23 affordable and renewable energy. This moment is a
24 unique moment in human history. We are at a climate
25 tipping point. The decisions you make now, will
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2 affect the lives of millions of people and the
3 survivability of our planet. Now is the time for
4 political courage. You recognized that the white
5 paper made some improvements to gas planning and that
6 there are elements of the proposal that could force
7 the utilities to sometimes choose cleaner
8 alternatives.
9 But, to comply with the C.L.C.P.A., we
10 need dramatic reductions in gas use, not just slowed
11 growth. For that, we need the P.S.C. to halt new gas
12 infrastructure and impose measurable emissions
13 reduction requirements on gas utilities. We need the
14 P.S.C. to direct utilities to invest more in
15 renewable heating options and electric grid
16 resilience and provide guidance to municipalities, so
17 that they can be planning for this transition. And,
18 we need each utility to strategically plan, how to
19 retire their existing infrastructures, starting with
20 the edges of the system and areas where the pipes are
21 fully depreciated or need to be replaced anyways.
22 The white paper fails to propose any
23 of this. By failing to require planning for a gas
24 infrastructure phase out, you’re putting customers at
25 risk. In order to comply with the C.L.C.P.A., the
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2 State is going to have to require all electric
3 buildings and set dates, by which existing gas
4 customers must switch off of fossil fuels.
5 If the utilities fail to plan their
6 system for this, fewer and fewer customers will be
7 left on the gas system, bearing increasing costs of
8 stranded assets known as a utility death spiral. As
9 the economic regulator of gas utilities, it’s your
10 job to protect customers from these costs, by setting
11 in place a real planning process to figure out how we
12 are going to meet our climate mandates, in a way that
13 serves the public interest. It’s also your moral
14 obligation.
15 The -- the energy transition will
16 require a fundamental shift in the business model of
17 utilities. The P.S.C. should require utilities to
18 move the billions of dollars that go into maintaining
19 the gas system, into helping to build electric heat
20 pumps and district renewable heating systems that we
21 need. Utilities will never shift to meet our climate
22 goals without clear mandates, incentives and
23 penalties from the P.S.C. The P.S.C. should also
24 lower the allowable rate of return on gas
25 investments, to stop incentivizing these climate
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2 destroying projects and instead, allow and encourage
3 utilities to invest in and market energy efficiency
4 heat pumps and shared renewable hearing
5 infrastructure.
6 You cannot remain neutral on a moving
7 train and this train is headed for a climate cliff.
8 If the P.S.C. will not show the courage to make the
9 changes needed for a livable energy system, then it’s
10 time for us to take our utility system into public
11 ownership and democratic control and make the changes
12 that we need ourselves. Thank you.
13 A.L.J. CLARKE: Thank you. Our next
14 speaker is Margo Spindelman.
15 MS. SPINDELMAN: Hi, my name’s Margo
16 Spindelman and I’m a rate payer in Brooklyn, New
17 York. I read the gas planning white paper with a
18 sense of dismay and sur-reality. I couldn’t believe
19 that I actually had the right document, since it
20 failed to address what I thought the heart of the
21 mission was, which was planning specifically for
22 turning the State of New York toward the future,
23 which means acknowledging our climate crisis and
24 figuring out how to create a livable future for the
25 people of New York State.
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2 I’d anticipated some sort of forceful
3 acknowledgment of the role that gas plays in the
4 heating of the planet and a commitment as an agency,
5 to use your power and oversight to create a new path
6 forward without gas. I had expected specific
7 benchmarks for reducing gas, in order to fulfill the
8 mandate of the C.L.C.P.A., which says we must
9 radically reduce emissions. I expected some sort of
10 outline for the replacement of gas infrastructure,
11 with heat pumps and Geothermal. I was sure there
12 would be reference to the realization that black and
13 brown communities have suffered disproportionately
14 from the devastating effects of fossil fuel
15 infrastructure and an embracive (sic) strategy to
16 implement ways forward, that’s centered in
17 environmental justice.
18 And, in the references to
19 stakeholders, I have to say, I was pretty shocked to
20 see no reference to the thousands and thousands of
21 public comments, that have pled with you as our
22 regulatory body to seriously address the grave
23 climate calamity we’re facing. Instead, I read a
24 tepid, toothless document that advocated all
25 responsibility to ensure some sort of road out of
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2 this mess. Renewable natural gas? Hydrogen? It
3 seems that you’re supporting some sort of supposed
4 de-carbonization scheme that preserved pipelines, in
5 order to preserve gas companies. I just can’t
6 imagine how you could stand up and hand this document
7 over to the people you are supposed to be working
8 for. The people who live in New York State, please
9 re-evaluate, please take the future of the planet, of
10 the people of New York, of your own families and your
11 neighbor’s families, into account and scrap this
12 visionless document and get back to work to plan a
13 just transition to renewable energy for all of us.
14 A.L.J. CLARKE: Thank you. Our next
15 speaker will be, Vanessa Agudelo. Ms. Agudelo, if
16 you’re a phone-in user, please press star three.
17 That will enable us to identify you and unmute you.
18 MS. KAILAS: No raised hand, Your
19 Honor.
20 A.L.J. CLARKE: Okay. Thank you. Ms.
21 Delia Farquharson, the same telephone instructions.
22 Please press star three if you’re on the phone.
23 Okay. We’re going to move on to Kim Fraczek. Ms.
24 Fraczek, if you’re phone-in user, please press star
25 three, so we can locate you.
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2 MS. KAILAS: No raised hand, Your
3 Honor.
4 A.L.J. CLARKE: Okay. Is Martha
5 Movasseghi on the line?
6 MS. KAILAS: Martha, if you’re calling
7 in to this hearing, please press star three on your
8 phone, so we can locate you with your raised hand.
9 A.L.J. CLARKE: Okay. We’re going to
10 move right along to Mr. Raff. Is John Raff on the
11 line? Please press star three on your phone. It’s
12 number seven, Sangeetha.
13 MS. KAILAS: Your line is unmuted.
14 A.L.J. CLARKE: Okay. Mr. Raff,
15 please identify yourself and make your statement.
16 We’re not hearing you. Perhaps you’re muted on your
17 end.
18 MR. RAFF: Your Honor, can you hear me
19 now?
20 A.L.J. CLARKE: Yes, we can.
21 MR. RAFF: Great, thank you very much.
22 A.L.J. CLARKE: No problem.
23 MR. RAFF: My name is John -- my name
24 is John Raff. I’m Director of Operations for New
25 York Geothermal Association -- Organization and I
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2 represent members that are involved in all aspects of
3 geothermal heating and cooling. I live in
4 Poughkeepsie.
5 We -- we really appreciate the work
6 that went into the white paper but we really see it
7 only as a start and not an end. There are certainly
8 some good things in it but it needs really to
9 provide, in our opinion, more direction and have more
10 reasonable goals. It just seems to me that the --
11 the -- the agreed upon urgency of the climate crisis,
12 no one seems to argue that, but there really isn’t
13 the commensurate action in the current white paper.
14 So, I’ve -- I’ve been working with New
15 York Geothermal Organization for about two years now
16 and I’ve done a lot of listening. I’m a -- I’m a
17 party in some rate cases and in those rate cases, it
18 seems to me that the utilities are looking for some
19 direction. I talked to my local school leaders, who
20 are trying to make decisions on bond issue spending
21 and they’re looking for direction. Elected officials
22 in my area would like more direction.
23 The members that we have in NY Geo,
24 who are heating and air conditioning professionals,
25 they’re indecisive about moving forward toward
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2 renewable energy expenditures and investments. And
3 -- and, I even have friends, family and neighbors,
4 that are -- that are looking for some guidance, to
5 determine the future of -- of their energy decisions.
6 So, if the -- if the white paper could be taken to a
7 phase two and include some direction and measurable
8 things, that could be a real step forward.
9 Now, I -- I recognize that there are
10 both regulatory and legislative aspects to the future
11 of gas but in addition to what others have said, if
12 we could, on that version two, maybe have some
13 targeted numbers for gas phase out. Could we create
14 a standard set of definitions that are consistent
15 across all utilities, really emphasize societal costs
16 that include health and safety and financial factors,
17 provide some direction for not only new -- new assets
18 but for the shorten assets and service lines,
19 etcetera and then finally levelizing the market
20 playing field between fossil fuel and non-fossil fuel
21 alternatives, so that we’re on the same -- same
22 playing field.
23 New York Geo and its members, we’re --
24 we’re ready and willing to help and would love to
25 provide input at any time. Again, we appreciate the
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2 -- the work of the Commission and the Staff and the
3 opportunity to provide input and we really look
4 forward to working with you for a cleaner future.
5 Thank you.
6 A.L.J. CLARKE: Thank you, Mr. Raff.
7 It would be helpful to us, if you could press star
8 three again. Thank you very much. The next speaker
9 is Sara Hess.
10 MS. HESS: Yes, can -- hi, my name is
11 Sara Hess of Ithaca and Fossil Free Tompkins. The
12 current proposal from the D.P.S. Staff, utterly fails
13 to address the complex, multi-years of planning and
14 funding, that are needed for a just transition off of
15 methane. New York’s economy is heavily dependent now
16 on methane. Reducing use is a huge task because it’s
17 used for essential sectors. You know all this. But,
18 here is the problem, planet goals are not flexible
19 when it comes to reversing our dependence on methane.
20 The urgency for rapid action to
21 dismantle gas infrastructure, without unnecessary
22 hardships on the economy, is difficult but
23 imperative. The C.L.C.P.A. demands action planning
24 that goes far beyond the simple, tepid steps and
25 frankly, misdirection in the proposed plan.
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2 A comprehensive plan must include
3 three -- these three elements, among others. One,
4 protection for the low income community, who face the
5 greatest energy burdens in the transition to a no
6 carbon heating and cooking future. Two, in this
7 plan, heat pumps are only proposed to replace
8 methane, if they’re considered economic,
9 quote/unquote, by the utilities and regulators. A
10 far better plan, would include the social cost of
11 methane on current and future generations. In truth,
12 fossil fuels are already far too expensive for New
13 York because of the economic and environmental damage
14 they cause in health, agriculture, transportation,
15 security and storm damage and the destruction is
16 accelerating at an alarming pace. Three, shockingly,
17 methane is still treated in this plan, as a default
18 utility service, allowed to continue growing without
19 a mandatory reduction. Reductions should be required
20 immediately, with reported milestones, goal
21 achievements and stiff penalties for utilities that
22 fail to cut back.
23 In summary, the P.S.C. has the
24 responsibility to plan for all levels of action
25 needed to meet the C.L.C.P.A. climate goals and this
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2 paper is woefully inadequate. It must be
3 significantly improved and expanded. Thank you for
4 your time and attention.
5 A.L.J. CLARKE: Thank you. Our next
6 registered speaker, is Mary Kobler. Ms. Kobler, if
7 you’re on the phone, please press star three so we
8 can recognize you and unmute you.
9 MS. KAILAS: No raised hand, Your
10 Honor.
11 A.L.J. CLARKE: Okay. Thank you. How
12 about Ann Finneran, same instructions, please press
13 star three if you are participating by phone.
14 MS. KAILAS: No raised hand, Your
15 Honor.
16 A.L.J. CLARKE: Yeah, we’re not seeing
17 any hands, so I’ll move to Mary Finneran. Okay. Ms.
18 Kailas, would you unmute Carol Chock please?
19 MS. CHOCK: Can you hear me?
20 A.L.J. CLARKE: Yes, we can.
21 MS. CHOCK: Thank you. I’m Carol
22 Chock. I’m a party to this proceeding. I spent ten
23 years as an elected official on the Tompkins County
24 Legislature and I became President of a group called
25 Rate Payer and Community Interveners, a coalition
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2 formed originally to represent elected officials,
3 organizations, small businesses, scientists,
4 engineers and residents affected by energy decisions
5 in Upstate NYSEG and National Grid service areas.
6 I understand the high cost energy
7 business model, is to maximize use of existing
8 investments. Of course existing business reps --
9 existing business representatives will want more
10 time. They have the resources to be in your offices
11 and signed up for every proceeding, with all kinds of
12 reasons to delay the changes necessary. But, our job
13 is to look beyond that, to see what is necessary to
14 sustain us for the future and to see that all are
15 included.
16 I was educated and worked as a
17 professional planner. I spent years learning
18 multiple, analytical techniques and methods. I was
19 able to apply that expertise as a participant in the
20 recent NYSEG rate case, in which the utility agreed
21 to PILOT a transitional gas reduction model.
22 But, I also learned in planning
23 school, that in the end, it all comes down to two
24 simple questions, who benefits and who pays.
25 Forward, really all you need, who benefits, who pays.
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2 We must now choose options that address the climate
3 crisis.
4 My role in several utility cases on
5 behalf of these organ -- in my organizations, include
6 looking in depth at the budgets and capital plans of
7 utility rate cases and requests. Each decision along
8 the way, amounted to tens or hundreds of millions of
9 dollars of difference. Each one took weeks, invested
10 by those who were paid or those like me, who could
11 set aside the extended hours necessary to absorb
12 everything and weigh in.
13 We invested that time, those of us who
14 volunteered, to show that it is possible for utility
15 companies, when pushed, to stay in business using
16 models that transition to fully renewable energy.
17 When the message is clear, the companies will comply.
18 I fully endorse the May 3rd filing by
19 Renewable Heat Now and that group of organizations,
20 regarding what is needed. Here’s what they said. We
21 don’t have time to waste. All energy contracts in
22 New York State, must align with goals of the
23 C.L.C.P.A., all people in New York State, must be
24 able to afford the transition, all greenhouse gas
25 emissions must be measured and reduced and energy
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2 decisions must be just to the communities and to
3 workers, transparent and accountable to the public.
4 We were counting on this proceeding to
5 move New York State to a more comprehensive model of
6 change. We can’t meet the 2030 goal to reduce
7 economy wide gas submissions by forty percent from
8 1990 levels, under the terms of this white paper. We
9 must go back to the drawing boards. Please do not
10 waste this opportunity to revamp energy for New York
11 State’s future. Thank you.
12 A.L.J. CLARKE: Thank you, Ms. Chock.
13 The next speaker on the list, is Elisa Evett. If you
14 are participating by phone, please press star three
15 and we’ll unmute you.
16 MS. KAILAS: No raised hand, Your
17 Honor.
18 A.L.J. CLARKE: Okay. I’m not seeing
19 any hands. We’re going to proceed to Heather
20 Stanton. You’re all set, Ms. Stanton.
21 MS. STANTON: Okay. Can you hear me?
22 A.L.J. CLARKE: Yes, we can.
23 MS. STANTON: Okay. Thank you. I am
24 Heather Stanton. I’m a member of Mothers Out Front
25 in Chemung County. We work towards a livable climate
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2 for our children and of course, I’m on this call
3 today for my children. Many of us on this call have
4 children, including I imagine, members of the Public
5 Service Commission. I ask you to picture your
6 children and your hopes for their future. We all say
7 we want the best for our children. Do we not? We
8 want them to have at least as good a life as we have
9 had. Do we not? We say these things but I remind
10 you, talk is cheap.
11 What is really needed, is action and
12 if we truly love our children, our actions must match
13 our words and that means acting to prevent our
14 children from suffering from the very real dangers of
15 climate change and that means taking action, to
16 transition off of fossil fuels, which is the only
17 true way to prevent the ravages of climate change.
18 And, so for our children, I ask the
19 Public Service Commission to take real, concrete
20 action to layout emissions reduction requirements for
21 gas utilities, in alignment with the C.L.C.P.A.,
22 address affordability for clean energy alternatives
23 to gas, such as heat pumps, provide guidance for an
24 orderly and equitable phase out of the gas
25 distribution infrastructure and current rate payer
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2 funded subsidies for gas, halt new investments in gas
3 infrastructure expansion and last, provide a pathway
4 for renewable, district, thermal energy, that serves
5 whole neighborhoods or communities. Thank you.
6 A.L.J. CLARKE: Thank you. Our next
7 speaker is Jean Bergman.
8 MS. BERGMAN: Hi, can you hear me?
9 A.L.J. CLARKE: Yes, we can.
10 MS. BERGMAN: Thank you for the
11 opportunity to testify. My name is Jean Bergman. I
12 live in Saugerties in Ulster County. I’m a member of
13 the SANE Energy Project and I work at an
14 environmental justice organization. I also have two
15 teenage children who face short and terrible futures
16 because of climate change. But, I’m speaking today
17 as a New York State resident and tax payer, who still
18 somehow believes, that Government should serve and
19 protect the people.
20 I read the gas planning white paper
21 and I am appalled that the Department of Public
22 Service would issue such a useless document. Never
23 has the phrase, business as usual, been more apt.
24 The report presents a vision of an industry that, to
25 meet its obligations to the State and to the customer
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2 -- customers who P.S.C. regulations are supposed to
3 protect, need only meet demand with supply. People
4 need thermal energy for heat, hot water and cooking,
5 so the report says, the utilities should provide them
6 with adequate and expanding delivery of gas. There
7 are glancing references to the C.L.C.P.A., a nod or
8 two to N.P.A.s and demand response but the plan is
9 business as usual.
10 The report does not provide what is
11 urgently needed, a clear roadmap for a just
12 transition from fossil fuels to clean and renewable,
13 carbon free energy, as quickly as possible, as a
14 critical step to avoiding -- to avoiding
15 incomprehensibly catastrophic climate chaos. The
16 report does not address environmental justice. The
17 unequal impact of methane pollution on low income
18 communities and people of color and the increasing
19 energy burden those communities will bear, as those
20 who can electrify do so, leaving poor people to cover
21 the costs of the stranded assets of investor-owned
22 utility.
23 The report barely mentions the Climate
24 Leadership and Community Protection Act. A lot of it
25 should guide rapid de-carbonization but is instead,
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2 ignored by the State entities that should be
3 implementing it.
4 In the face of an emergency of the
5 scale and rapidity of climate change, we should all
6 be doing whatever we can to de-carbonize and to
7 protect those who are most vulnerable. The people
8 who work for the D.P.S. and the P.S.C., have a
9 special responsibility to do this work. This is
10 their job. Even if they don’t care about the
11 survival of life on this planet, they might notice
12 that the industry that they are supposed to regulate
13 and plan for, has already entered the vortex of the
14 death spiral. But, no, the authors of this absurd
15 little report, buried their heads and produced this
16 meaningless dribble.
17 As many others have already said, we
18 have learned that overwhelming civic concern, hours
19 spent drafting testimony and presenting it here and
20 dedicated engagement in the corners of utility
21 governance where the public is allowed a small voice,
22 is futile. That’s why we have an organized and mass
23 response to this sham opportunity to present
24 testimony. The D.P.S. and the P.S.C. have forfeited
25 any legitimacy they may have ever had. Those of us
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2 who are here now, are testifying to the utter failure
3 of this Government and its regulatory agencies, to
4 take appropriate action in the face of a disaster
5 that you could help mitigate. Thank you.
6 A.L.J. CLARKE: Thank you, Ms.
7 Bergman. Our next speaker is Ellen Weininger.
8 MS. WEININGER: Yes, can you hear me?
9 A.L.J. CLARKE: Yes, we can.
10 MS. WEININGER: Thank you. Good
11 evening.
12 A.L.J. CLARKE: Thank you.
13 MS. WEININGER: My name is Ellen
14 Weininger. I’m Director of Educational Outreach at
15 Grassroots Environmental Education ... non-profit.
16 It’s 2021. New York’s climate law was passed in
17 2019. The P.S.C. has -- as an authority of New York
18 State, must comply with and align its planning and
19 procedures with the climate goals of that law. The
20 P.S.C.’s failure to provide a comprehensive plan for
21 an orderly, equitable and rapid phase-out of the gas
22 system in this State, violates the State’s climate
23 law.
24 More than 200 elected official and
25 over 130 organizations from across New York, have
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2 signed letters, insisting that the P.S.C. fulfill its
3 duties by enforcing greenhouse reduction targets for
4 each utility and develop an affordable and equitable
5 plan, to replace gas with renewable heating, cooking
6 and hot water services. However, the latest P.S.C.
7 filing, disregards those demands and maintains
8 business as usual.
9 This failure immobilizes New York’s
10 climate progress and prioritizes utility shareholder
11 profits, over our health, our climate, our precious
12 natural resources and our economy. One thing New
13 Yorkers know for certain, is that this State cannot
14 afford to maintain the status quo. We have less than
15 nine years to reduce greenhouse gas emissions by 40
16 percent from 1990 levels. The P.S.C. must comply
17 with State law and restructure utility regulations,
18 plans and incentives that comport with that -- the
19 C.L.C.P.A. Forcing rate payers to waste millions of
20 dollars on useless and absolute fossil fuel
21 infrastructure when they need these pipe lines to be
22 stopped and shut down, is risky and reckless.
23 In order to comply with State law, the
24 P.S.C. knows it must halt new fossil fuel
25 infrastructure, impose measurable emissions reduction
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2 requirements on gas utilities, to meet the C.L.C.P.A.
3 goals, including environmental justice principles,
4 provide guidance and resources to municipalities and
5 require steps to ensure affordability and grid
6 resilience. The P.S.C. must also direct the
7 utilities to stop incentivizing conversions from oil
8 to gas.
9 Finally, the P.S.C. knows that the
10 current operation of the AIM pipeline and the old
11 Algonquin pipelines at the Indian Point Nuclear
12 facility, involves a violation -- quote, a violation
13 of an applicable safety standard, end quote, based on
14 the inadequate evaluation of risk outlined in the
15 N.R.C.’s Inspector General report and the lack of the
16 Federally required risk assessment. The P.S.C. knows
17 it is required by Federal law, to submit a
18 notification of that situation to FIMSA, to request a
19 corrective action order to shut down the operation of
20 the AIM pipeline and the old Algonquin pipelines at
21 Indian Point.
22 We implore the P.S.C. to act now.
23 Everything is at stake and time has run out. Thank
24 you.
25 A.L.J. CLARKE: Thank you.
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2 Our next speaker is Clarke Gocker.
3 MR. GOCKER: Yup, can you all hear me?
4 A.L.J. CLARKE: Yes, we can.
5 MR. GOCKER: Great, thanks. Hello, my
6 name is Clarke Gocker. I’m the Director of Policy
7 and Strategy at PUSH Buffalo, a community based
8 organization, organizing at the intersection of
9 Housing Climate Economic and Racial Justice. I’m
10 testifying this evening to voice serious concerns
11 with the Department of Public Service’s gas planning
12 white paper released in February.
13 Since last fall, I’ve had the
14 privilege of serving on the Climate Action Council’s
15 Energy Efficiency and Housing Advisory Panel. After
16 months of deliberations and stakeholder and public
17 engagement, the Panel submitted recommendations to
18 the C.A.C. this week. Among the greenhouse gas
19 emissions mitigation recommendations highlighted by
20 the Panel, it was the call for a managed based and
21 just transition off of fossil, gas and the
22 elimination of imbedded subsidies in the gas system.
23 The recommendation also included a
24 call for a comprehensive equity strategy and
25 resources to enable low to moderate income households
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2 in disadvantaged communities, to make energy
3 efficiency upgrades and electrify affordably and
4 expeditiously ensuring those households and
5 communities are not left behind.
6 The recommendation concludes with a
7 call to upend the existing utility regulatory
8 framework, to shift new investments in gas delivery
9 infrastructure, to non-pipe alternatives, like air
10 source and ground source heat pumps.
11 The gas planning white paper failed to
12 anticipate and fails to track towards these
13 recommendations. It fails to recognize the risks and
14 harms of gas or acknowledge that gas is an accelerant
15 to climate change. It fails to account for or even
16 reference the input of community advocates and
17 environmental groups.
18 It fails to center marginalized
19 communities or even mention environmental justice.
20 It fails to provide guidance and resources to
21 municipalities, developers and contractors, so that
22 they can plan. It fails to lay out emission
23 reduction requirements for gas utilities and
24 alignment with the C.L.C.P.A.
25 It fails to address affordability for
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2 clean energy alternatives to gas, such as heat pumps.
3 It fails to provide guidance for an orderly and
4 equitable phase out of the gas distribution
5 infrastructure. It fails to end current rate payer
6 funded subsidies for gas or even account for them.
7 It fails to provide a pathway for renewable district
8 thermal energy that serves full neighborhoods or
9 communities. It fails to halt new investments in gas
10 infrastructure expansion. And, it fails to address
11 the need for affordable, reliable electric power
12 supply to support building electrification. In fact,
13 it -- it fails New Yorkers. It fails all of us and
14 it -- and it fails our -- our goals set out in the
15 C.L.C.P.A. Thank you.
16 A.L.J. CLARKE: Thank you, Mr.
17 Gocker. The next speaker is Richard Berkley. Mr. 18 Berkley, if you’re on the phone, please press star
19 three. MS. KAILAS: No raised hand, Your
20 Honor.
21 A.L.J. CLARKE: Okay. We’ll come back
22 to -- we’ll come back to Mr. Berkley and move on to
23 Wendy Hijos.
24 MS. HIJOS: Hello, this is Wendy. Can
25 you hear me? 38
1 5-13-2021 - Gas Planning Procedures - 20-G-0131
2 A.L.J. CLARKE: Yes, we can.
3 MS. HIJOS: Super, thank you so much
4 for giving me this opportunity. My name is Wendy
5 Hijos and I’m the Executive Director for the Consumer
6 Energy Alliance in New York. And, I appreciate the
7 opportunity to share our perspective on this
8 important signing process.
9 Just a little background, we were
10 founded in 2006 and C.E.A. is a non-partisan, non-
11 profit organization, advocating for balanced energy
12 and environmental policies and responsible access to
13 resources. C.E.A. represents virtually every sector
14 of the U.S. economy and our members are very
15 concerned about U.S. energy policies, energy security
16 and affordability, environmental stewardship and long
17 term price and ... reliability. C.E.A. really
18 supports that whole carbon and emission reduction
19 strategies, as we move towards a greener and cleaner
20 future, that keep the costs and reliability needs of
21 the consumer in mind.
22 And, as the P.S.C. undertakes its
23 planning process, we want to clearly state the vital
24 role that natural gas places in the daily lives of
25 New Yorkers, by providing affordable and reliable
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2 energy service. Over 60 percent of households
3 statewide and even more so in Upstate New York, which
4 is where I live and Western New York rely on natural
5 gas for home heating. It provides over 40 percent of
6 the State’s power generation needs and over 70
7 percent of the electricity for our downstate region.
8 That reliance and demand will only
9 grow with the closure of Indian Point Nuclear Power
10 Plant, which provided nearly a third of the New York
11 City region electricity needs. According to an
12 analysis performed by C.E.A., affordable natural gas
13 saves New York consumers more than 48.3 billion from
14 2008 to 2018, which translates into $1,281.00 per
15 person.
16 Natural gas and its related
17 infrastructure have helped drive down emissions of
18 air pollutants in New York, with nitrous oxide and
19 sulfur oxide by 78 percent and 97 respectfully since
20 1990. And, what’s even more remarkable, carbon
21 emissions have dropped over 24 percent during that
22 time period.
23 As drafted, we’re very concerned with
24 some aspects of the planning proposal, such as the no
25 infrastructure option, that would potentially put a
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2 great strain on consumers and households, which would
3 pass the amount of the high cost of modernizing the
4 natural gas system, with little to no infrastructure
5 being approved. And, unfortunately many have tried
6 -- treated, pardon me, natural gas as some type of
7 problem, rather than a clear and obvious policy
8 solution. It must continue to be a critical part of
9 our energy mix, to make sure that we can keep the
10 lights on and houses warm, while we seek to make --
11 make greater environmental progress on emissions.
12 Natural gas compliments ... and optimization of
13 increasing renewable energy products into our
14 generation mix and it also strengthens our grid’s
15 resiliency, by mitigating intermittency issues, as
16 battery storage technology and other options further
17 develop.
18 Emerging developments in renewable
19 natural gas and hydrogen technologies, mean that our
20 existing natural gas has a vital role to play, being
21 -- in helping shape that ... in solving energy
22 delivery issues during this transition.
23 Another option that needs more balance
24 and rational discussion, is forced electrification.
25 Prematurely instituting technology comes at a cost
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2 and a blanket adoption without examining the details,
3 could have very real cost reliability impacts to New
4 Yorkers. C.E.A. recently did a study, which found
5 that forcing electrification on New Yorkers, could
6 cost over $35,000.00 per household in appliance
7 replacements, wiring, installation, duct work and
8 labor. Policy makers must also be realistic about
9 the reliability and generation challenges that a
10 company’s forced electrification and 100 percent
11 renewable mandate.
12 Federal data showed that New York’s
13 non-hydro renewable power generation in December of
14 2020, was only at 6 percent. As -- as that process
15 unfolds, we urge you to maintain a thoughtful
16 balance, that ensures consumers and families have
17 access to the gas service they need and utilizes our
18 existing infrastructure to help achieve the cleaner
19 future that we all want. Thank you so much for this
20 time. I really appreciate it.
21 A.L.J. CLARKE: Thank you. Our next
22 speaker is Robert Wood.
23 MR. WOOD: Yes, can you hear me?
24 A.L.J. CLARKE: Yes, we can.
25 MR. WOOD: Okay. Great. My name is
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2 Robert Wood. I’m a member of the N.Y.C.D.S.A.
3 Ecosocialists Working Group. And, I’m here today to
4 join the chorus rejecting the solutions proposed in
5 the D.P.S. white paper, on the grounds that they
6 offer no real plan to get off fracked gas, while
7 continuing the State’s pattern of passing off
8 concessions to corporate profits, as solutions
9 adequate to the climate emergency.
10 It is useful to remember the paper’s
11 origins. Almost two years ago to the day, National
12 Grid imposed an illegal gas moratorium -- moratorium
13 on its own rate payers, in order to pressure the
14 State into approving the lucrative William’s
15 pipeline. It was all for a project that numerous
16 outside experts agreed wasn’t needed and it was
17 partly enabled by the State, for failing to
18 scrutinize National Grid’s claims to the contrary.
19 Thousands of rate payers suffered as a result.
20 But, the State at least made gestures
21 towards setting things right. It fined National Grid
22 and called for a denial of service investigation, in
23 which new reports and new hearings would help give
24 rate payers an actual say in their energy future. It
25 called for this gas planning proceeding, exploring
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2 ways to better manage and presumably get off gas.
3 And, it promised us a report that would serve as the
4 blueprint for crucial next steps.
5 Yet, rather than announce its decision
6 on long term infrastructure in June, as it had
7 promised the public, the State moved all discussion
8 of lucrative infrastructure into the closed door rate
9 case, where it could be debated alongside National
10 Grid’s return on equity, well away from public
11 scrutiny. Thousands upon thousands of public
12 comments opposing new gas infrastructure were left
13 stranded in that other proceeding. All of it had
14 been a sham. Even more problematic, is the fact that
15 largely unbeknownst to those public stakeholders,
16 National Grid had already begun construction on some
17 of the very infrastructure the public had been
18 opposing in that other proceeding and all as the
19 State stood idly by.
20 As of today, National Grid has
21 completed at least 120 million dollars of
22 construction on opposed gas infrastructure that
23 doesn’t even have rate recovery approval yet. The
24 State has enabled this horrible precedent and we know
25 well enough who will end up paying for it.
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2 So, you will forgive rate payers, like
3 myself, for reading your white paper with its
4 constant appeals to stakeholder participation and
5 finding it as disingenuous as it is inadequate. We
6 have been taught by the D.P.S. to see all of its
7 gestures towards democratic participation in energy
8 planning, as mere theatre, hiding the fact that the
9 State’s only real concern, is assuring the profits of
10 dinosaur utilities like National Grid, whose business
11 models are deeply threatened by electrification and
12 whose gas distribution assets are at risk of becoming
13 stranded.
14 This white paper is no different. It
15 is corporate welfare, masquerading as an actual
16 equitable solution and it doesn’t matter ultimately.
17 As you continue to waste the public’s and planet’s
18 valuable time by making these corporate concessions,
19 we are hard at work imagining a future without
20 corporate utilities and without the feckless
21 regulators, who haven’t had enough spine to rein them
22 in. We must get off gas and we will get off gas,
23 even if it is we, not you, who ultimately see to it
24 that we do. Thank you.
25 A.L.J. CLARKE: Thank you, Mr. Wood.
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2 The next registered speaker is Lisa Marshall.
3 MS. MARSHALL: Hi, thank you for
4 calling on me. I just want to say that people seem
5 to be having trouble with the star three. Elisa
6 Evett is at 607-351-6685.
7 A.L.J. CLARKE: Okay.
8 MS. MARSHALL: And --.
9 A.L.J. CLARKE: Thank you, we actually
10 don’t have their last few digits. So, we will get
11 back to the phone-in users after a couple more people
12 have spoken.
13 MS. MARSHALL: Okay. Do you press
14 star and three at the same time or star first and
15 then three or does it matter?
16 A.L.J. CLARKE: You press star and
17 then three and the hand should go up.
18 MS. MARSHALL: Yeah, it didn’t work.
19 Okay. So, I just wanted to get that out there.
20 Thank you for making --.
21 A.L.J. CLARKE: No, I appreciate that,
22 thank you. We’ll do our best when we get back to
23 them.
24 MS. MARSHALL: Okay. I had an
25 opportunity to speak yesterday and I just wanted to
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2 call in one more time because I have a little bit
3 more -- another point that I wanted to make. We
4 cannot assume in -- in our work, that the utilities
5 are good faith actors who are doing their utmost to
6 serve the rate payers. That is the job of the
7 P.S.C., to ensure that they are doing that. And, we
8 know for a fact that they’re not doing that because
9 we can see the patterns of -- of their actions and I
10 want to highlight one story that affected me locally
11 and suggest that the P.S.C. or Governor Cuomo ask the
12 Attorney General and/or the Comptroller’s Office, to
13 do an investigation into the kind of self-dealing
14 that the utilities are engaged with, with the gas --
15 with the gas transmission and gas extraction
16 companies, that are not in the interest of rate
17 payers.
18 So, my story is about the compressor
19 station that was built in my town. First what
20 happened was, that National Grid sold a controlling
21 interest in the Iroquois pipeline -- the so called
22 Iroquois pipeline system to Dominion -- the Dominion
23 Corporation. Then the Dominion Corporation applied
24 to expand the gas transmission through their old
25 pipeline that goes through my town, with National
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2 Grid as the supposed customer. Then National Grid
3 testified at all of the hearings and put in testimony
4 saying, that this gas was needed for winter heating
5 for all of their Upstate customers. They were never
6 asked to demonstrate that that winter heating need
7 was real. And, then we saw from the slides presented
8 at the Northeast Gas Association’s meeting, that no,
9 of course, that gas was not intended for Upstate
10 customers. There were not gas constraints in Upstate
11 New York during the winter heating season. The gas
12 is ultimately intended for export to Canada, for --
13 to transmit to the coasts, where they can be exported
14 other places and to feed a then power plant that had
15 not yet been built yet, the Cricket Valley Energy
16 Center.
17 So, it’s -- but the -- but the rate
18 payers are on the hook for building-out gas
19 transmission all across New York, so that gas
20 companies can move their gas to more lucrative
21 markets and that is something that the current
22 administration, the P.S.C. and the Attorney General’s
23 office really needs to investigate. This is --
24 there’s many reports on this and I can send them to
25 you if you want. But, this is not what New York
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2 State rate payers should -- should be paying for.
3 I have another comment, which is that
4 I’ve heard from utility law judges, that while they
5 would love to help us out and -- and constrain the
6 gas system, but because of the utility -- New York
7 State’s utility law that -- that says that it’s in
8 the public interest to provide gas service, that they
9 can’t do that. And, I -- you know, I would politely
10 say, that is a load of baloney. That law was written
11 a hundred years ago. Gas service could be
12 interpreted many different ways. Gas service at that
13 time, was gasified coal that was provided for
14 lighting services. What really we understand utility
15 law to mean, is to provide needed services for health
16 and life to New York rate payers. And, that could
17 absolutely be extended to understand thermal energy
18 services and electrification.
19 So, let’s stop playing around and
20 interpret the law in the way that it would serve New
21 Yorkers and -- and not be beholden to the gas
22 interests. Thanks so much for holding this public
23 hearing and please -- please listen to all of the
24 people who are speaking. We -- each of us here --
25 who could be here tonight, is representing hundreds
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2 of others who can’t. Thank you.
3 A.L.J. CLARKE: Thank you, Ms.
4 Marshall. I’d like to apologize to anyone who’s
5 participating on the phone tonight and experiencing
6 technical difficulties. Just so everybody knows
7 where we stand -- where we stand, the next -- the
8 order of speakers, is going to be Barbara Hertel,
9 then Vanessa Agudelo, then Richard Berkley, then Ann
10 Finneran and then we’ll go down the list of call-in
11 users, one-by-one, to make sure that they can provide
12 a statement if they’d like to. They are not that
13 many speakers -- call-in users, so we’ll do it that
14 way, just to make sure we don’t miss anyone. So, the
15 next speaker is Barbara Hertel.
16 MS. HERTEL: Hi, can you hear me?
17 A.L.J. CLARKE: Yes, we can.
18 MS. HERTEL: Okay. So, I live in
19 Williamsburg Brooklyn. I’m near the north Brooklyn
20 Tunnel, which must end and stop and -- because we
21 don’t really need the gas anymore. And, also --
22 let’s see -- okay. I kind of made a mess of my
23 things. Fossil fuels have no place in our state or
24 world. Their future is in -- on gas. New York
25 climate law is clear. If we are going to meet our
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2 greenhouse gas emissions reduction goals, we must
3 begin an immediate and a managed phase out of fracked
4 gas.
5 New York State has failed to listen to
6 the thousands of New Yorkers who have participated in
7 the P.S.C. proceedings and -- and there’s -- and if
8 they’re serious about public engagement, the P.S.C.
9 must begin right now, by listening to our demands for
10 a plan to get off gas -- natural gas and all fossil
11 fuels.
12 Please change the white paper to
13 reflect a removal of fossil fuels and bring a new and
14 cleaner world to all of us. Thank you.
15 A.L.J. CLARKE: Thank you. Okay. Our
16 next speaker is Vanessa Agudelo. You’ve been
17 unmuted; if you can just identify yourself for the
18 record please. Are you perhaps muted on your end?
19 Ms. Agudelo, we can’t hear you. You’re unmuted on
20 our end. And, Ms. Agudelo, I apologize for the
21 technical difficulties. We’re going to move on to
22 Mr. Berkley and we’ll come back to you. Hopefully we
23 will have that sorted out. Mr. Berkley?
24 MR. BERKLEY: Yes, thank you, Judge
25 Costello and thank you Commissioner Berman for your
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2 attendance and your remarks as always and my thanks
3 to all the D.P.S. Staff and folks who are paying
4 attention at this important public statement hearing
5 in this -- in this important proceeding.
6 The remarks I’m going to make right
7 now, are really only at a high level. We’ll provide
8 some more granular comments in writing later. They
9 will not overlap with what I speak about tonight,
10 other than in some policy concepts.
11 So, first thank you and I thank the
12 Commission for calling the issue of gas planning and
13 moratorium planning back to the floor. We’ve had the
14 experience beginning with the 2015 Lansing moratorium
15 and, of course, underlined very strongly in the 2019
16 National Grid moratorium and the small or I should
17 say brief moratorium in Con Edison’s territory and,
18 of course, the threat of other moratoriums in Con Ed.
19 I -- I think there are a couple of
20 things that are important. First, the focus on
21 creating an integrated resource planning process for
22 gas, is extremely important. I think that it was
23 demonstrated to the State but very much so to the --
24 the five million residents of the National Grid of
25 New York City and National Grid of Long Island
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2 service territories, that the planning process had
3 broken down, with regard to the moratorium that was
4 declared in those areas.
5 While there may have been and the
6 company asserts there was sufficient prior notice,
7 that notice for whatever reason, was not communicated
8 to the public and therefore, an integrated resource
9 planning process with an ... transparency and with
10 clear messages to the public about what to expect, I
11 think is incredibly important. I also think that the
12 annual process of reviewing the readiness of the gas
13 system for winter, demonstrated that it needed to be
14 substantially reformed in 2019 because even during
15 the -- the depth of the moratorium in New York, the
16 annual report on the readiness of the system, didn’t
17 go into any detail about how the utilities, in
18 particular National Grid New York City and Long
19 Island, were going to meet the needs that their
20 customers had, other than saying, we think that
21 they’ll be able to get the rest of the contracts
22 necessary done. And, there is significant reliance
23 upon peaking supplies and that also turned out to be
24 problematic at best.
25 In addition, I think Staff’s analysis
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2 in the report, that there needs to be more focus on
3 planning the end or at least planning the ramp down
4 of the natural gas system in the State of New York is
5 very important. It’s only since 2017 that Staff in
6 rate cases, has begun acknowledging that the further
7 expansion of the natural gas system, may not be in
8 the best interest of the State.
9 While natural gas is inexpensive on
10 the front end, it’s very expensive on the back end.
11 So, Staff has begun experimenting, embracing other
12 options, such as electrification, which of course, is
13 enormously expensive up front and potentially cheaper
14 on the back end.
15 The fact that the expense curves are
16 in opposite directions on these two technologies,
17 suggests that they can be used as a way of
18 transitioning from one to the other in a manner that
19 should not significantly harm affordability. As
20 someone who’s organization is in every major rate
21 case in the State, I don’t see enough of that type of
22 thinking, at this point in time.
23 I also think that as part of the
24 planning process for gas, that the company should not
25 only be encouraged to further rely upon non-pipe
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2 alternatives but as they think about proposing new
3 infrastructure, they should be thinking about if 4 that infrastructure can be used for something else
5 in the future and something potentially non-heat
6 related. But, they should also be thinking about in
7 a manner that is reasonable, unlike I think in my
8 opinion at least, the claims made by the Corning Gas
9 Company in its recent rate case, that their -- an
10 accelerated depreciation process may be required
11 when we get the final recommendations from the
12 Climate Action Council. But, if so, that would
13 create an affordability crisis around the State.
14 So, Staff and those who are engaged in
15 these proceedings, need to contend with that issue
16 too, which is the planning process should also be
17 planning not just reliability but affordability; not
18 just adjusting reasonable rates but again,
19 affordability and compliance with the C.L.C.P.A.,
20 among other things and of course important
21 environmental justice and energy justice concerns.
22 That’s, I think, all I’ll say on the
23 issue of the gas planning, other than to say, New
24 York leads the way on this, as it does in so many
25 other things and this is something that we need to 55
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2 get right. We don’t have a lot of time left to deal
3 with climate change and in fact, we should have dealt
4 with it decades ago.
5 Turning to the issue of moratoria, I
6 think that the State has found out that the planning
7 process for moratoria was also broken. It was
8 business as usual but the world has changed. And, so
9 I appreciate and applaud Staff’s looking forward to
10 changing the way that utilities have to deal with
11 what they call the need for moratoria. I was very
12 concerned when it looked as if -- in its moratorium,
13 that National Grid New York City and Long Island, had
14 decided that it was going to abandon its duty to
15 serve. It was not only blocking new connections, it
16 was saying that it could not supply gas for
17 connections that had been served by the Company for
18 decades but had been destroyed or rendered
19 temporarily uninhabitable in Super Storm Sandy. For
20 people who were doing minimal work on their houses
21 and were told by the Company, to turn off their
22 appliances for safety, they were then told
23 subsequently that they couldn’t turn them back on.
24 That was chaos. And, the planning process discussed
25 in these -- in the white papers and the need to plan
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2 to avoid moratoriums, is something that should take
3 strong lessons from that experience.
4 There are many other things that I
5 could say today about the problem of moratoriums but
6 one of the things that I’ve heard so many times, is
7 that the 100 foot rule should be abandoned and people
8 make all sorts of arguments about that. But, if we
9 look back at many of the potential projects that were
10 affected and the moratorium in New York City,
11 affordable housing was an important part of those
12 projects.
13 The 100 foot rule is not a subsidy
14 rule. It’s an anti-red-lineing rule and -- or at
15 least it functions that way, as a practical matter.
16 When new affordable housing is built, when new
17 greener housing is built, it should be able to attach
18 to natural gas or you may wish to argue that no more
19 gas structures -- no more structures should be built
20 using gas in the State at all. If so, we have to
21 change the financial structure of all of the new
22 housing that we’re building; all of the new
23 commercial buildings that we’re building because the
24 experience that I saw during the moratorium, was that
25 projects that needed to -- were told that they had to
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2 switch to electrification at the last minute, would
3 go millions of dollars over budget.
4 I hope that we connect these things
5 very strongly to the housing market, affordable
6 housing generally, and the need for people to have
7 warm and safe shelter in the State. We shouldn’t
8 look at the issue of moratoria and the issue of gas
9 planning, as somehow divorced from the need of people
10 to have places to live that are safe and affordable.
11 Thank you.
12 A.L.J. CLARKE: Thank you, Mr.
13 Berkley. We’re going to try Ms. Agudelo one more
14 time. You’ve been unmuted on our end. If you’re
15 perhaps using your phone as audio, if you could
16 please press star three and we’ll try to identify
17 you. Okay. Well, I apologize for the technical
18 difficulties. We’ll get to you when we go down the
19 list of phone-in users. We have one more electronic
20 user that we can identify, so Ann Finneran will be
21 our next speaker.
22 MS. FINNERAN: Okay. Hi. Thank you,
23 can you hear me?
24 A.L.J. CLARKE: Yes, we can. If you
25 can just identify yourself for the record please.
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2 MS. FINNERAN: Okay. I am Ann
3 Finneran --
4 A.L.J. CLARKE: Thank you.
5 MS. FINNERAN: -- ... Okay. Hi. I
6 -- I’m sorry I was late on this. I had some business
7 I had to attend to. I hit a deer the other day, so I
8 had to deal with that. But, in any event, my -- my
9 sister is unable to make it. She -- her -- her
10 comment is stop all gas. So, I’ll just speak for my
11 sister. We have the same voice. However, my comment
12 and maybe other people have commented on it as well,
13 has to do with the Greenridge Power Plant and the
14 fact that it was allowed to convert from -- come out
15 of the coal bin, so to speak, as a coal fire plant to
16 a gas fire plant as a peaker plant and then allowed
17 to convert to a business operation for bit coin
18 mining. And, I was distressed to hear that the
19 P.S.C. pretty much washed their hands of that because
20 it would -- did not have to do with rate payers and I
21 -- I really struggled to see how the consumption of
22 so much gas, so much energy, does not impact the rate
23 payers and does not impact affordability.
24 So, I think that you should reconsider
25 that position. It very much does impact energy
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2 consumers, the general public. So, please -- please
3 consider that. That’s my comment. So, thank you
4 very much all. I’m cutting it short. Thank you.
5 Thanks for the opportunity.
6 A.L.J. CLARKE: No problem, thank you.
7 Okay. I’d like to thank everyone for their patience.
8 We’re down to phone-in users. We’re going to unmute
9 you one at a time. If you would like to make a
10 statement, please identify yourself for the record
11 and begin. We’re going to start with call-in user
12 three.
13 MS. KAILAS: The line’s been unmuted.
14 A.L.J. CLARKE: Call-in user three, if
15 you’d like to make a statement, you’re unmuted.
16 Okay. Let’s try call-in user seven.
17 MS. KAILAS: The line’s unmuted.
18 A.L.J. CLARKE: All right. Well, it
19 certainly appears that some of the call-in users are
20 having some -- well, the issues are probably on our
21 end and for that, I apologize. I will make an
22 announcement at the end, in the event people can’t
23 make a statement when they wanted to, about other
24 means of providing comment but we will go down the
25 list, just in case this isn’t affecting everybody.
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2 So, let’s try call-in user thirteen.
3 MS. KAILAS: The line’s unmuted.
4 A.L.J. CLARKE: Call-in user thirteen,
5 hello. Okay. Call-in user fifteen?
6 MS. KAILAS: The line’s unmuted.
7 A.L.J. CLARKE: Let’s try sixteen.
8 MS. KAILAS: The line’s unmuted.
9 MS. EVETT: Hello, this is Elisa
10 Evett.
11 A.L.J. CLARKE: Hi, Ms. Evett, please
12 make your statement. Thank you.
13 MS. EVETT: Okay. Thank you. So, my
14 name is Elisa Evett and I’m a member of member of
15 Mothers Out Front in Tompkins, as well as several New
16 York State chapters of the National Organization ...
17 doing right now, namely, trying to convince ... wise,
18 courageous but hard decisions to avert climate
19 catastrophes, so that my grandchildren and their
20 grandchildren will inherit a livable planet.
21 I was ... hoping ... gas planning
22 white paper recently wrote out by the P.S.C., would
23 be an example of this kind of decision making.
24 Sadly, it was not. Most ... involves a lack of
25 recognition of the role that gas plays in climate
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2 change. How is it possible that our public officials
3 failed to demonstrate an awareness of the
4 overwhelming evidence of this fact? How many other
5 shortcomings in this paper, seem to stem from this
6 ... It’s a lawful blind spot in the paper.
7 Apparently, the P.S.C. sees no need to
8 specify requirements for gas utilities to reduce
9 their emissions. It sees no need to terminate rate
10 payers subsidies for gas. Why should rate payers be
11 obliged to subsidize what amounts to a suicidal
12 dependence on gas? The paper gives no pathway to put
13 an end to investments in ... gas infrastructure.
14 Continuing to allow more infrastructure for gas, is
15 criminal to my mind. Given these failings, it is no
16 surprise that the P.S.C. neglects to demonstrate any
17 kind of robust support for clean energy alternatives.
18 My husband and I have gone to great
19 extents to get off gas as the energy source for our
20 house, by installing solar panels that provide the
21 electricity for all our needs, including charging our
22 electric car and running our heat pumps to heat and
23 cool our house. We are extremely lucky to be able to
24 afford to do this. Many home owners cannot.
25 Furthermore, renters are at the mercy
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2 of their landlord’s financial means or simply a
3 willingness to spend the money to switch to renewable
4 energy sources and specifically heat pumps. Clearly,
5 it’s a burden of getting off gas. That should be the
6 role -- the sole responsibility of individual
7 citizens. It is the job of the P.S.C. and other
8 Government agencies to provide crystal clear guidance
9 to the utilities, as well as to municipalities,
10 developers and other stakeholders for energy
11 transition. Only you have the power to make it
12 possible for society, as a whole, to move swiftly to
13 get off gas altogether.
14 Government subsidies should be granted
15 to make heat pumps affordable to all who need them,
16 especially in marginalized communities. Those
17 communities that have already paid a crushingly heavy
18 price for what the utilities ... that’s forced upon
19 them in securing ... its own gas. Not only should
20 the P.S.C. recommend ways to make it possible for
21 heat pumps to be the future for heating and cooling
22 living spaces, it should come up with a mandate that
23 this technology be required in all future building,
24 construction, as well as retrofitting existing
25 buildings.
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2 A massive but manageable overhaul of
3 this aspect of the use of gas, is urgently needed.
4 This is just one area in a larger gas plan for the
5 future that needs your immediate attention. Direct
6 your Staff to go back to work, to come up with a
7 speedy plan for this all important solution to combat
8 climate change. I demand it for my three darling
9 granddaughters and all the innocent children in New
10 York, who have no idea of what lies in store for them
11 if you don’t. Thank you very much. I’m glad I was
12 finally able to get through and I hope others who are
13 having trouble, will succeed as well.
14 A.L.J. CLARKE: Thank you and I
15 apologize again. Thanks for your patience. There
16 are three -- three telephone users who -- we’ll give
17 the opportunity to speak. Hopefully they’ll be able
18 to. If not, I’ll -- I’ll list a number of other ways
19 that you can provide comments and then we’ll open up
20 the floor to any electronic users who may want to
21 provide a statement but did not register. So, Ms.
22 Kailas, excuse me, ... call-in user eighteen please.
23 MS. KAILAS: The line is unmuted.
24 A.L.J. CLARKE: Let’s try nineteen.
25 MS. KAILAS: Caller nineteen is
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2 unmuted.
3 A.L.J. CLARKE: Caller nineteen, if
4 you can hear us and would like to make a statement,
5 your line is unmuted. Okay. Call-in user twenty-
6 two?
7 MS. KAILAS: The line is unmuted.
8 A.L.J. CLARKE: Okay. It doesn’t
9 appear they can make their statement if they would
10 like to. To everyone who has experienced technical
11 difficulties tonight, I certainly apologize. We
12 would love to hear your statement. We will do our
13 best to figure out what happened and ensure that it
14 doesn’t happen again in the future.
15 In the meantime, if you would like to
16 provide a comment in this case, there are multiple
17 ways to do so. You can email the Secretary to the
18 Department of Public Service at [email protected],
19 that’s secretary, s-e-c-r-e-t-a-r-y @ dps.ny.gov.
20 You can mail the Secretary, the Honorable Michelle L.
21 Phillips, Secretary, Public Service Commission, 3
22 Empire State Plaza, Albany, New York 12223-1350. If
23 I’m going too fast, all of the information that I’m
24 providing is also in the notice that was issued,
25 regarding this public statement hearing. You can
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2 leave your comments by phone, 1-800-335-2120; that’s
3 1-800-335-2120. If you want to leave a comment on
4 the actual case number on D.M.M., you can visit the
5 Department’s website, www.dps.ny.gov, click on search
6 at the top of the page, enter case number 20-G-0131
7 in the search by case number field, click on the post
8 comments box at the top right of the page. Again,
9 all of those methods are more fully described in
10 detail in the notice of the public statement hearing
11 that was issued on April 19th.
12 What we’re going to do now, is just
13 open up the hearing to anyone who would like to give
14 a statement, who is participating electronically but
15 didn’t register to provide a statement. If you would
16 like to, please press the raise hand icon, which is
17 in the bottom right hand corner of your screen. If
18 you’re an electronic user, you should be able to see
19 the instructions that are showing right now. I’m not
20 seeing any raised hands. Ms. Kailas, are you? Oh,
21 we have a call-in user with a raised hand, number
22 eighteen.
23 MS. KAILAS: You’re line’s unmuted.
24 MS. FARQUHARSON: Hello, can you hear
25 me?
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2 A.L.J. CLARKE: Yes, we can.
3 MS. FARQUHARSON: Hi, this is Delia
4 Farquharson. I’m a City Council Member in Mount
5 Vernon and thank you -- thank you for the opportunity
6 to speak. I did sign up but I don’t know what
7 happened.
8 A.L.J. CLARKE: I -- I’ve seen your
9 name on our list of registered speakers and I
10 apologize for the difficulty. So, we’re happy to
11 hear your statement now.
12 MS. FARQUHARSON: Yes, I -- I -- you
13 know, I’ll be -- I’ll be brief. I just say that, in
14 my community, which is primarily a community of black
15 and brown people, marginalized people, people living
16 on the fringes of this economy, that they don’t
17 really fully understand, many of them, what is going
18 on with this climate crisis because they’re busy
19 trying to survive. And, I would hope that more
20 effort will be put into educating our community and
21 being deliberate about providing options to fossil
22 fuels. We are already a warming community, that was,
23 you know, plagued by all kinds of chronic -- chronic
24 health conditions and all of this is related.
25 So, I want to implore this body, to
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2 look at communities like Mount Vernon and invest in
3 educating our community and -- and providing the
4 resources we need, so we can move away from fossil
5 fuels and towards a healthier future because
6 everybody deserves that. It doesn’t matter if you’re
7 an immigrant, it doesn’t matter if you’re poor, it
8 doesn’t matter if you’re black and brown, we all
9 deserve to have better futures and most especially,
10 our children, as well. So, thank you.
11 A.L.J. CLARKE: Thank you very much
12 Ms. Farquharson. If we can just ask you to press
13 star three again. Thank you very much. Okay. And,
14 as I stated earlier, we’re going to open up the floor
15 to anyone who would like to provide a statement
16 tonight but did not pre-register to do so. If you’re
17 an electronic user and want to give a statement,
18 please press the raised hand icon in the bottom right
19 of your screen and maybe our telephone issues have
20 been resolved, somehow. If you’re a phone user and
21 want to provide a statement, please press star three.
22 Ms. Kailas, do you see any hands?
23 MS. KAILAS: No, Your Honor, no raised
24 hands.
25 A.L.J. CLARKE: All right. We’ll give
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2 everyone just a -- another moment or two before we
3 close the hearing. Again, if you’re an electronic
4 user who would like to provide a statement, please
5 press the raised hand icon in the bottom right of
6 your screen or if you’re a phone user, please press
7 star three on your phone.
8 MS. KAILAS: Your Honor -- Your Honor,
9 I have some raised hands. I have Vanessa.
10 A.L.J. CLARKE: Okay. Let’s see --
11 let’s -- Ms. Agudelo.
12 MS. AGUDELO: Yes, can you hear me?
13 A.L.J. CLARKE: Yes, we can.
14 MS. AGUDELO: Great. Thank you so
15 much. My name is Vanessa Agudelo. I’m a City
16 Council Member from the City of Peekskill and I just
17 very quickly also wanted to echo the sentiments made
18 by the council member from Mount Vernon. I am one of
19 over 200 elected officials, who signed onto a letter
20 sent to the Public Service Commission, demanding that
21 the P.S.C. enforce greenhouse gas reduction targets
22 for each utility and develop an affordable and
23 equitable plan to replace gas with renewable heating,
24 cooking and hot water services and was deeply, deeply
25 concerned to see the gas planning proposal that was
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2 put forth this past February, that completely ignored
3 these demands and opted to instead, put forth
4 incremental changes that truly are not meeting the
5 scale of the issue that we are facing with this
6 climate catastrophe.
7 And, as someone who is representing an
8 environmental justice community. A community that is
9 -- has for many, many years, been left to bear the
10 burden of the fossil fuel industry for far too long.
11 I feel as though the P.S.C. is failing the people of
12 my community, the people of New York. I am asking
13 that you go back to the table and come -- come forth
14 with a proposal that will actually, truly meet the
15 skills -- meet the scale of this issue that we are
16 facing. And, I -- I don’t understand how we are
17 still here, how we are continuing -- hundreds of us
18 continuing to come to these meetings, submit
19 comments, make our concerns and -- and voices heard
20 and yet it feels as though we are being completely
21 ignored. It feels as though, the priority is -- is
22 being given to the shareholders of these corporate
23 monopolies, when -- when in -- in fact, it is your
24 job to regulate; to ensure that these corporations
25 are not putting the needs of their -- are not putting
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2 their bottom line at the center of -- of how they
3 perform but instead, are putting the people in which
4 they’re -- they’re meant to serve and -- and the
5 utilities -- and the utilities that are meant to
6 serve and it doesn’t seem like that is what is
7 happening here.
8 So, I -- I really hope that the P.S.C.
9 is going to hear what’s been said today; what has
10 been said yesterday. I know a number of us have been
11 exhausting every opportunity to make our -- our --
12 our concerns heard in -- in a -- in a number of
13 multiple ways. But, it feels like these concerns are
14 being -- are being again, ignored and -- and -- and
15 -- and not prioritized. So, it's -- it’s deeply
16 concerning. I think that we -- we need to go back to
17 the drawing board. I -- I have hope that our state
18 can make this work. I -- I -- otherwise, we really
19 have no choice. It’s communities like mine, who are
20 left to invest -- because of our extremely humble
21 budget, we -- we have our hands tied behind our
22 backs. We don’t have the funding necessary. We
23 don’t have the guidance necessary to move towards
24 these renewable energy goals set forth by the
25 C.L.C.P.A. And, if the P.S.C. is not setting forth
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2 very clear directives to the utilities, we are not
3 going to get there and communities like mine are
4 going to be left behind.
5 So, I am asking you to meet the -- the
6 -- the -- to rise to the occasion and -- and to truly
7 be responsible to the -- to the needs that the people
8 of -- of New York have, in ensuring that we’re moving
9 towards a more sustainable future; a future that is
10 not plagued by the fossil fuel industry, the stranded
11 assets and -- and -- and -- and resources that are
12 only continuing to set us back and -- and make our
13 communities further -- further -- further entrenched
14 in -- in -- in health disparities and a number of
15 issues that they are facing, given their
16 circumstances. We have an opportunity to make things
17 right and to move forward in the right direction and
18 I’m hoping that the P.S.C. will go back to the
19 drawing board and do just that. Thank you so much.
20 A.L.J. CLARKE: Thank you very much.
21 Sangeetha, it looks like Ms. Finneran has her hand
22 raised. We can go back to her for a moment.
23 MS. FINNERAN: Yeah, I -- I -- I think
24 I’ve been a little inspired by the -- the two
25 representatives who brought up the environmental
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2 justice issues and I -- I think that really -- it’s
3 just been allowed too much. I mean, the C.P.V. plant
4 in Wawayanda, is less than a mile from the D.E.C.’s
5 environmental justice map. And -- and, not only
6 that, the map area is upwind of the plant and that --
7 and that’s just -- that’s the kind of thing that’s
8 been allowed to happen too long. Right now, more
9 recently, we have another kind of environmental
10 justice, Woodhull in Steuben County. I grew up in
11 Steuben County. There were kids that they couldn’t
12 -- they didn’t have shoes in the winter and -- and
13 yet they’re -- they’re going to expand a compressor
14 station in Woodhull. You know, people are just --
15 these -- these are not -- these people are not pawns
16 to be taken advantage of, just because they don’t
17 have money to -- to fight it and they’re -- and
18 they’re not aware. I really appreciate the comment
19 that people need to be made more aware. People in
20 environmental justice communities can be -- we can
21 help them by educating them on the issues. So,
22 that’s all I -- I had. I just wanted to add -- add
23 that. Thank you.
24 A.L.J. CLARKE: Okay. Thank you very
25 much. I don’t see any other hands. So, we’re going
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2 to close the hearing but before I do so, I’d just
3 like to remind everyone again, that they may still
4 submit comments by the other methods that were
5 described earlier. They’re also appearing on your
6 screen now if you’re an electronic user. I’d like to
7 thank everybody for their participation and their
8 patience here this evening. I’d also like to thank
9 Commissioner Burman for being present, Ms. Kailas and
10 Mr. White for their technical assistance and our
11 court reporter, Ms. Wallravin. The hearing is
12 concluded. We’re off the record.
13 THE REPORTER: Off the record. Thank
14 you.
15 (The proceeding concluded.)
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1 5-13-2021 - Gas Planning Procedures - 20-G-0131
2 STATE OF NEW YORK
3 I, JANET WALLRAVIN, do hereby certify that the foregoing
4 was reported by me, in the cause, at the time and place,
5 as stated in the caption hereto, at Page 1 hereof; that
6 the foregoing typewritten transcription consisting of
7 pages 1 through 73, is a true record of all proceedings
8 had at the hearing.
9 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto
10 subscribed my name, this the 20th day of May, 2021.
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13 JANET WALLRAVIN, Reporter
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