ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW with Jesse Kuhaulua (Daigoro Takamiyama) (JK) July 30, 2015 Interview By: Mel Inamasu (MI) John Okutani (JO) Jane Kurahara (Jak)

JAPANESE CULTURAL CENTER OF HAWAI‘I ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW with Jesse Kuhaulua (Daigoro Takamiyama) (JK) July 30, 2015 Interview by: Mel Inamasu (MI) John Okutani (JO) Jane Kurahara (JaK)

Note: Comments in brackets [ ] are by the transcriber. Inaudible words or sections are identified by ((?)) in the transcript. This transcript has been edited to remove pauses, repetitive phrases and false starts.

MI: Today is July 30, 2015. We’re here at the Japanese Cultural Center conference room to interview Jesse Kuhaulua, or Takamiyama. With me are two other volunteers. My name is Mel Inamasu and… JO: John Okutani. MI: And… JaK: Jane Kurahara. MI: So the three of us are here to interview Jesse. I’m going start the interview, but all three of us will be conducting the interview and asking you questions as we go along. And I think we’re most interested in today is, basically, not so much your professional career, but how you got there. And also, now, about your reflections of your career [JK acknowledges], your life, how you look at your role as far as being, maybe, a cultural ambassador between Hawaii and Japan. I know you’re from Wailuku, Maui. Why don’t you tell us a little bit about your early childhood? Maybe tell us about your parents? Where you lived on Maui, and just go from there? JK: I was born at the old Maunalani Hospital. It’s now near the plantation, the sugar cane plantation—what was that? [taps fingers] Wailuku Mill? MI: Wailuku Mill. Yes. Sugar hospital. JK: Now—now I think it’s an old people’s home. MI: That’s right. JK: And after that, I went up to Ulupalakua with my grandma because my mother was originally from Ulupalakua. And—she’s a pure Hawaiian, and I’m three-quarters [Hawaiian] and a quarter of Portuguese [ancestry]. MI: So tell us your mother’s full name, and a little bit about her. JK: Lillian Kuhaulua. She was… Jesse Kuhaulua (Daigoro Takamiyama) Oral History Interview

MI: What’s her maiden name? JK: Her name, Kuhaulua. Well, she didn’t get married. But she was with my father for about, —until he passed away, quite young, but he had—four—five kids with him. Altogether six, but one of them, my youngest, I don’t know. [Pause] MI: So are you the oldest one? JK: I’m the oldest one and there’s altogether six, three male and three female. I was the oldest and my sister Faith was a year younger than me. Then, Rita was my other sister. Then we had my brother Jackie and then Michael, and the youngest is Leila, my youngest sister. MI: Did you grow up in Ulupalakua? JK: Well—Ulupalakua, but I was raised up in Wailuku, Happy Valley. My mom was Lillian Kuhaulua. She comes from the biggest Hawaiian family, I think, on Maui, the Kukahiko family. I remember my grandmother’s brother, Reverend Kukahiko, [from] either Kula area or Lahaina area. But the thing with me, [at] my younger age, I had no interest visiting the family. My mother used to always take the kids go over, but I used to stay home. I didn’t really want to go out and meet the family, so I didn’t know much about them. And all my three sisters are all passed away. My [sister] Fay died at 61, I think. She had some kind of cancer. Rita went to school with Brian Hiranaga, [MI acknowledges] She died quite young. My mom died at 54. She was diabetic. She died a very young age. And my youngest sister, also, she was thirty-something, I think. She also was diabetic. And me, I’m so proud, because I supposed to be following my mother’s side, because I’m not, my diabetes is very low. MI: Now, so, how old were you when you moved to Wailuku? JK: I think I was over four or five, because I went to Wailuku Elementary School. Go to school, we were bare-footed. [Everyone chuckles] And I was involved in a car accident, at third grade. That’s why I got stuck in fifth grade at Wailuku Elementary, because I didn’t go school for a long time because I was in hospital. I was in the hospital for a couple— because at that time, they were building the iron bridge, and I was crossing the bridge without looking. Just cross the street and [slapping sound] I get bang! Next thing I knew, I was in the hospital and for quite a long while. JaK: Oh my goodness. MI: So your mother raised all of you by herself? JK: Uh, yes. By ourselves, because…[pause] JO: You know, in Japanese cultural values, you know, you got along with ganbare [perseverance]… JK: Yeah. JO: Raised as a Hawaiian, you know, in a Hawaiian environment, do you recall any strong Hawaiian cultural values? That maybe impacted on you, when you were raised? MI: No. I don’t know—just… JO: Because they had the concept of ohana [family] and…

2 Jesse Kuhaulua (Daigoro Takamiyama) Oral History Interview

JK: Ohana, but—you know, where my mother go, when she go right, I go left. [Chuckles] Things like that. You know, it was a joke. Every time, they used to go Ulupalakua, go visit the family up there, very seldom that I go. I used to stay back—go out with my friends. JO: Were you independent? JK: Pretty independent. I didn’t really want to go where my mom goes. You know, she goes there; I go the other way. Then, going to school, we were down in Happy Valley. I started going to school, Wailuku Elementary. That’s where, my third grade, I got involved in this car accident. I didn’t go to school for quite a long while because I got hurt. MI: But—so you recovered well from the injury. I mean, you could play at sports? JK: Well, I could, but no, that’s the problem. Sports. When sports came in, at Wailuku Elementary, I really didn’t—I could dance, you know. The teacher used to make us dance. Sports-wise, I was real clumsy. Clumsy. What I mean by clumsy—in playing baseball, at Iao School, I wanted to turn out for the softball team. I couldn’t make it. I wanted to play first base. MI: Was that because of the car accident? JK: Well, maybe, because the only thing that I was doing a lot is playing, playing around with the kids. Football. And I was big. That’s only the thing, but I was clumsy. Maybe you can use the word “clumsy.” And—[pause] Remembering, I couldn’t really make the team. MI: But you were bigger than anybody else. JK: Yeah, yeah, I was real big. And when time to swim, like swimming in school, I didn’t go swimming. The reason why, maybe I was clumsy or something, and I didn’t want to go swimming, play sports, and at Iao School, I finally had the opportunity but I couldn’t make the team. I like baseball… MI: Who was the coach who didn’t put you on the team? JK: Umm, that I don’t know. [Everyone laughs] I forgot. MI: Was it Shishido? JK: Yeah. But [that was] my high school football team. But, when we had P.E.—I was quite interested in sports. The only sports that I think, the team that I made, was at Iao School when [it] had a track and field. But they made me go shot put and that’s the only thing I did, but I didn’t do that well. The smaller guys were out to ((rank??)) me. I was thinking of these kids at that time, these kids at shot put, but I wasn’t really doing well. MI: And then you went to high school [Henry Perrine Baldwin High School, a public high school in Wailuku]. What happened? JK: And then I wanted to play baseball. I strike out a lot. And I used to make a lot of errors, so I didn’t make the team. Then basketball. I wanted to play basketball then. I was a little too big for basketball but I did. I couldn’t dribble really to a man so I didn’t make the team. The only team I really made was the track and field, with the shot put. That’s the only thing I did.

3 Jesse Kuhaulua (Daigoro Takamiyama) Oral History Interview

MI: So then you went to high school. Everything changed. [Kuhaulua played football at Baldwin High School when the school won four straight Maui high school football championships, and Jesse was an all-star tackle in his senior year.] JK: Like with—Edward Sawada. We went to summer school, because my mom said, “You gotta go to school,” and so—with Gregory Matsui, Alan Gushiken—the four of us, we went to school. And the class I went to—was my football coach, Larry [Shishido]. So there were people that—you know, at the party [Japanese Cultural Center’s 2015 Sharing the Spirit of Aloha annual gala event], I told that there were five people that really took interest, you know, helped me get in there—Isamu Ogasawara, who taught me the art of sumo. The other was Larry Shishido, who encouraged me to take sumo wrestling for football. Then the other was Kats [Katsugo] Miho. Kats Miho was with the 442nd [Regimental Combat Team, in World War II]. At that time, he was a [State of Hawaii] House of Representatives plus a lawyer, attorney, and plus he worked with the 442nd [Veterans’ Club] with the sumo association to bring the wrestlers over. He was one of the big factors of bringing the wrestlers over, and plus, he also was advisor and a father-like me because he really looked after me. And a very good friend, Ralph Yempuku, also with the 442nd. Everybody passed away, except for Larry Shishido. And at that time, Governor [John] Burns. I think I mentioned Governor Burns, because at that time I was in the [Hawaii Army] National Guard. When this thing happened, they were scouting me all the way! Nobody told me. So what happened, [starts rapping fingers] I joined the National [Guard] without knowing that these people were scouting me in Japan, and I didn’t know. MI: This is after you graduated. JK: Ending of my sophomore year in high school, I was wrestling in sumo. We had a tournament on Maui [Maui Sumo Association] and—[starts to laugh] they didn’t tell me that the 442nd [Veterans’ Club] went through this professor from Meiji University, Takizawa sensei. Takizawa sensei was the one who trying at that time—not professional sumo, but in college sumo, he was the number one man. He’s the one who recruited Takakura Ken to become a movie star. Takakura Ken was a Meiji, you know. Then he was the one who knew the kantoku [director]. He got Takakura Ken to become haiyū san actor and he became very famous. MI: How and why do you think these people were very interested in you? JK: Well, maybe because Ogasawara really took a deep interest in me. Mr. Ogasawara from Maui? [MI acknowledges] Our sumo coach? He really took interest. MI: Okay. Go back a step, and tell us how you got into sumo. You were in high school… JK: Yeah. Well, first we went to summer school and we took up math. Math credits, I think. Because with the four of us, we went [chuckles] in the same class! And our teacher was Larry Shishido. And the first thing, he looked at me, [raps his fingers. JaK starts to laugh. Someone says, “Football.”] “Oh. Eh, you go play football.” JaK: He volunteered, yeah? JK: In fact I was wondering how I could play football. I wanted, but I didn’t know how to, but when I went to his class, I started learning about that. Then when the school, ending of June, I think, until July, and then August, we went to training down Kula. I don’t know what you call that, basic or just practice football, spring training, or summer training—for

4 Jesse Kuhaulua (Daigoro Takamiyama) Oral History Interview

about two weeks, we went to Kula. That’s when I had my first time as a football player, you know. [Pause] Then Coach Shishido told me—after the football season after my freshman year in high school at Baldwin—he told me about weight training and trying to lift on the weights, so he made us schedule like spring training, weight training schedule. So I used to go at the old—there used to be—you know the pool at the Wailuku Iao School gym? MI: Yes. JK: Had a gym and right next to the pool, had this—I don’t know what—this place where you can go weight lifting. That’s where I was doing all my weight training. Then, ending of the season, about April or something, then he told me, “Eh, go take sumo wrestling up.” So me and Edward Sawada went to take up sumo wrestling. And we got all, you know— that’s when I got stuck. Well, the thing is, at first, it wasn’t that. But you start banging head, that’s why. That was quite interesting. So what happened—really, what happened is when the tournament was over, I won a lot of prizes, you know! And that made my mom real happy, because at that time, when you win certain bouts, they give you sugar, or if you win five in a row, at that time you could have won clock radio! You know, a clock radio—Panasonic at that time—you know, in the ’60s was a big thing. And I won a lot of prizes. The people, the local Japanese on Maui, donated [prizes] for the tournament. And every time they tell me, I started running in there, [JaK starts to laugh] running and banging heads, and I was all excited and I won a lot of things. And my mother was all excited, all—[whispers] “You gotta go next year!” [MI, JO and JaK laugh] And that’s why I got glued to sumo wrestling, you know. And I remember my first two years, I was a little bit hazukashii [embarrassed] so I gonna wear my pants, and then the mawashi [sumo belt or loincloth] [JaK chuckles]—I didn’t like to take that. MI: They let you do that? JK: Well, here [in Hawaii] okay, local kine can, you know. The main thing, you get the belt on. MI: Let me ask you about that belt. Does that do something for you, or is it just, tradition? JK: Tradition. MI: It doesn’t, like, tighten up your belly and make… JK: Well. Give you a strong—so you can hang on the belt. And once you’re tight, a certain way, the belt will never come off. Once the thing come off, they have to stop the bout. But the belt would be on, and you can secure the good hold on your opponent. Because local kine wrestling, they don’t know, they’re all simple-like. Everybody wants to go for the belt. You don’t have techniques—you know, in Japan, like pushing or slapping your opponent up—very seldom that you find somebody who can do that here in Hawaii. Most of the kids over here, they try to go for the belt, grab the belt, and force him out of the ring. I was doing that the first two years. I used to wear my short pants. Then my third year, going into my junior year in high school, that’s when the professor from Meiji University called me over and said, “Eh. You gotta come and we’ll take picture.” He told me, come at the place that he was staying, that he wanted to take picture with me. I went there. Why at this hotel? Later on, I found out. Because he wanted to put one mawashi on me. MI: What?

5 Jesse Kuhaulua (Daigoro Takamiyama) Oral History Interview

JK: Take the pants off, and put the mawashi. You know the belt? He wanted me to take the thing off, my pants—and put the belt on. Just the belt. He tells me, “Take your pants off.” [JK makes a growling noise] They’ll do it. Yeah. Then there were three of them that’s like coaching sumo, eh? And they were on Maui, for one week, and everyday I used to go at the training session. Every evening. Work hard. Then at that time, I think, he was scouting me and—because he and my former boss were very good friends, number four Takasago [4th Takasago, 39th yokozuna, Maedayama Eigoro]. He [Takizawa sensei] and Takasago were close, although he was with college, he and my oyakata [master of a sumo stable]— plus Mr. Takasago was very close to the 442nd Regiment because in the early ’60s, I think, they used to bring over the Meiji University baseball team, because they always promote Hawaii-Japan, you know. MI: At the time, were there other foreigners in this? JK: Uh, no. They were none. MI: Was there something special about this guy, that he looked at this foreigner and he said, “I think we should try you.” Bring this guy to Japan. JK: Well, maybe—what I felt is, Ogasawara was trying to help me out. They were all talking, like, in the back of me, and, secret-like [makes a sound like muffled conversation, “ta-ta- ta-ta.”]. Now, [pause] I don’t know if they really know it, but—what happened, the only thing is, nobody told me until I went to basic [training] in ’63 at the Schofield [Barracks]. We were the last [Hawaii Army National Guard] group to have our basic training in Schofield. After that, everybody moved to Ft. Ord [California], I think. So ’63 was the last year, basic training at Schofield because I remember [chuckles] playing football with the Wolfhounds. I was assigned to a company, and I played football with them, for four games, I think. MI: After high school, you joined the military. JK: Yes. MI: And you were at Schofield for a while. JK: Yeah, Schofield. Well, for six months, until I came back, and then they had the [sumo] tournament and I was told by Mr. Isamu Ogasawara that I’m going to Honolulu. I was working with the cannery because Alan Gushiken’s father got me work there. Then I was working at the cannery, [pause] Wailuku cannery. I was told by Isamu Ogasawara that I was going to Honolulu to wrestle, and he didn’t tell me that I was going—[chuckles] that he wanted me to join sumo one day. Just wanted me to go there—because I met a lot of friends at that time. You know, at that time, the grand champion was Larry Mehau? Larry was the Honolulu—real funny—Honolulu group was all policemen, all former policemen. All young policemen were with the Metro squad at that time with Larry Mehau. And Larry Mehau was like that yokozuna [sumo grand champion], Hawaii yokozuna-like. And get these guys, now, like Joe Perry. Joe Perry used to be a union president, I think. Buzzy Wong used to be a policeman because I remember when he was one lieutenant in the police department. He took me to the airport on the car, [laughs] zoomed in! I was late, that’s why. A lot of guys like Gil Ane that I wrestled with, and you know, I was still in high school, but these guys were above me. But I did a little wrestling with them. MI: So you came here for a tournament. Did you win?

6 Jesse Kuhaulua (Daigoro Takamiyama) Oral History Interview

JK: Honolulu? Not the main tournament, but I won a lot of prizes. Before they have the main event, they always have this kine—win three in a row, then you win a prize, or you win five in a row, you win a prize. After that, we have the best seven. The best seven, if the team wins, 4-3, they’re the winners. And usually Honolulu was always winning the tournament, but I think I did my part. I was pretty good. JO: Was it that time, they started bringing over from Japan, the sumo wrestlers? JK: I think that the first came here in ’62, 1962. The 442nd [Veterans’ Club] brought the first team over, and that’s when my stable boss was the head of the group. JO: Did you meet him at that time, or… JK: No, no. I didn’t meet him, but he knew a lot of things about me, through Isamu Ogazawaru telling Professor Takizawa about me, because he was scouting. There was one other guy that, also, he was looking at, from Honolulu, Peter Wong. He was about six or seven years older than me, but the difference between him and me, he had good technique. Real natural. But because of his age—he was 26 years old at that time—they didn’t take him. They told me—and I was surprised—when I heard about this, about coming to Japan, I told myself, “Eh, I’m going. I like to go, but there’s one problem.” Well, there’s two problems. My mother doesn’t want me to go, plus I’m in the [Hawaii Army] National Guard. The National Guard thing got [me] first! And then, my mother didn’t like me to go, you know. So what happened—uh [pause], everybody got involved with that. MI: So you had to get out of the National Guard? JK: Yeah, so that’s why Governor [John] Burns, Mr. [Katsugo] Miho and then the person of the 442nd, Mr. [Edward?] Nakamura, but he got involved, too, you know. He was the president of the 442nd [Veterans’ Club] at that time, and they got involved in that. JO: Those days, they still had the draft, that’s why. JK: Yeah. Oh yes, they did have the draft, because I went to the draft board, with Isamu Ogasawara, and they told me that after one year, you might be drafted into the military. There is a possibility, you know. MI: What about the other part? Your mother? JK: That’s why Isamu Ogasawara and the coaches on Maui, [Harry U.?] Isobe, [Masanobu Harry?] Matsuura. You know Matsuura? Well, he used to be with coach, Baldwin High School football team, but he also was—when I was wrestling—he was my sempai-like [mentor]. And he and Mr. Ogasawara—Isamu went to see my mother and then finally she said, [quietly] “Okay.” [Chuckles] Yeah, she [raps the table] gave up, said okay. Then [in] Honolulu, Mr. Miho and Mr. Nakamura and Ralph Yempuku, the three of them went to see the governor. They talked to the governor and I was told by Mr. Miho that the governor said for me to go over to Japan, try my best, because in the future, Japan relationship between Hawaii is going to be much better after six or seven years. They had that [pause] Japanese rule [refers to April 1964, when Japanese citizens were freely permitted to travel overseas], that tour. At that [time], Japan was expensive. [Japanese yen-dollar exchange rate] was 360 and now and then, all of sudden, the rates started dropping down and, got to 240 something, I think. And then, gradually started going down

7 Jesse Kuhaulua (Daigoro Takamiyama) Oral History Interview

and down, and got better, and—[breathes deeply] Japanese coming over to Hawaii. Before, it was hard for a Japanese to come to Hawaii, you know. Hard, because of the yen. MI: Were you worried about…? JK: No, I was excited! You know the first thing come, oh! I want to go! But I was in the military so I cannot go; I told my boss and then I told Kats Miho, Ralph Yempuku, “I don’t think I can go.” I wanted to go, but Isamu Ogasawaru started pushing my mom. First, she said, “No,” because, big family and she wanted me to stay over. At that time, I really wanted to become a policeman. I don’t know if I could have become a policeman— [pause] and I just was all excited, going when I went. They told me that if she wanted me to go, they’re going to take care of me. I didn’t even think of hardship, because just before going over, we had a big gathering. All of the people who were backing us—sumo association—came to the gathering, a party, for me, at this inn. [Lowers his voice] He just said, “You’re going to work hard! Going to be hard, you know that!” I didn’t think of that, you know. I just tell myself, oh, I just want to see Fujiyama, you know. I just wanted to see Fuji—Fuji-san. I used to hang around with a lot of Japanese-American guys, like Alan Gushiken, Matsui, Mashino, Sawada; we were all good friends, huh? We were in high school and junior high school, like close! Especially Edward Sawada, and, Bergie [Wayne Hamamura]. So what happened, my mom finally gave up, said okay, and Mr. Miho went talk to the governor. Mr. Miho told me that the governor said—which put a lot of pressure on me—the relationship between Japan and Hawaii is going to be much, much better, and for me to try my best. So I’m very happy, especially when I won the championship. [In 1972, he was the first non-Asian champion to win at the 15-day summer tournament in Nagoya, Japan.] And when I saw—first time when we went to the [Hawaii] state’s senate and I saw Governor Burns, oh, he was smiling! MI: This was like, about how long after? JK: Oh, it was 1972. MI: About eight years later. JK: I was twenty-eight years old. I just made twenty years old [when] going [to] Japan, you know. My first three years was hard. Was very hard. Very hard. JaK: Mean, the training, the… JK: Well, getting to know the system. You know, took me three years, exactly, because at that time, remember, they all remember World War II. And they start picking on you, because I’m the first non-Japanese to go into sumo. JaK: Did you ever find out why they decided to open it up? JK: Well, my stable boss, Takasago, was the man who opened sumo up. I don’t know why but the only thing I can think of [was] he went through a lot of hardship too. You know, Mr. Takasago—Maedayama, his name was, his first ring name. He was the 39th yokozuna in the world of sumo. And he was the humble yakuza-like. Well, I don’t know if I should [use] the word yakuza, but he was [makes a growling sound]—he’s real scary guy. He will push you to the limits. He’s that kind of person, and the reason why, because he was a yokozuna during the war. Then he retired in 1949. The reason why he retired from sumo, I think, got something to do with me. In 1949, at that time, they had two tournaments a year.

8 Jesse Kuhaulua (Daigoro Takamiyama) Oral History Interview

Not six tournaments—they’re starting to have six tournaments in the latter part of the ’50s, I think. Before that, they had only two major tournaments in Tokyo, January and May. They did have one tournament in Osaka, but only exhibition tournament. But what happened, is, my boss wrestled. At that time they had no TV. Radio was the only big thing in Japan because you could listen to everything. So what happened was, he dropped out of the Osaka tournament and he came back to Tokyo. He knew somebody who gave him a ticket to watch the San Francisco Seals play the All-Japan [baseball team], at that time, the best players of Japan. When you drop out of the tournament, you have to stay low profile. You cannot go out now. You either go to one hospital or just hide away. Try to keep out of trouble. You know, like, every time I tell Akebono the same thing, “If you drop [out of] tournament, don’t go out drinking; you don’t do that.” So what happened, he dropped out of the tournament. Next day, he went back to Tokyo, and somebody called him. He liked baseball. Then what happened—a friend took him to watch baseball. The San Francisco Seals came over to play the All-Japan baseball team. He’s a big fan of that [Lefty] O’Doul, who was the manager of the Seals, the baseball team. He went there and shakes hands, and they took pictures! Next day, his picture was in the newspaper! And then the sumo kyōkai [association] got real mad at him and they say, “You got to quit.” That’s why eight days later, he retired from sumo. He was thinking of going back to where he come from, [pause]—Ehime Prefecture, Shikoku. And he was going back to Shikoku; he said that he was going to give up. But okamisan [wife of stable boss] made him try to stay with sumo, and then he stayed in. He didn’t say who invited them over [but] GHQ [General Headquarters] of Japan invited him because they knew he was a baseball lover, you know. So, what happened [pause]— GHQ felt sorry about it, so when he retired afterwards, they made him like an ambassador. They sent him to Washington, to promote sumo dohyō iri [sumo wrestling ring-entering ceremony] and all this kine, because they felt sorry, because they invited him to the baseball game. And he came over, and the sumo kyōkai said, [lowers his voice] “Yeah, yeah, fine, yeah.” MI: Let me go back. And so you decided to go to Japan [in February 1964]. You got off the plane. What did you think when you first got to Japan? JK: I was all excited. Excited about coming to Japan, and I know I was going through hardship because the Maui guys told us. You know, when we have the party, everybody come [lowers his voice] “Taihen desu yo, taihen desu yo.” [“It’ll be tough.”] Everybody was telling me that there was going to be hardship, but I was just excited, you know, because I was going. And I just wanted to go. When everything was done, [claps hands] and the governor said, “Okay,” I got my visa, and [claps hands] the 442nd [Club] was helping me get everything, setting me up. Then Mr. Ogasawara on Maui, Larry Shishido, everybody start working. [Pause] Then when I got over, I remember February 23rd was my mother’s birthday. I left here on the 22nd. Then I got there on the 23rd. I still remember the plane number now! Japan Airlines Flight 71. A DC-8. We left here about four in the afternoon. We arrived there, 8:45, I think, in the evening and then, was snowing then! The first time I ever saw snow. It was snowing up, a little drizzle, until the next day when I got up. I looked outside. Wow! It was beautiful. MI: This is 1964.

9 Jesse Kuhaulua (Daigoro Takamiyama) Oral History Interview

JK: Yeah. It was ’64. Then, as I said, these people were all involved and I didn’t know about this. I didn’t know that I was going over Japan, that they were interested in me, and they were doing this at [the] ending of my sophomore year in high school [in 1962]. Without knowing this, I went into the military. But Mr. Ogasawara and Professor Takizawa— because of Takasago—he was the one trying to open the doors, because he got fired from watching baseball. And [chuckles] maybe that’s why he’s trying to, when he came in’ 62. JaK: So after you landed in Japan, and you started to work hard. Then what did you think? JK: Well, you know, those days was hard. The heya [sumo stable or training quarters] was real old, was built before World War II. Plus we had a lot of rikishi [lower-ranking sumo wrestlers]. But I think one of the hardest parts in sumo was the language, [and] not eating what you like. My first year in Japan is learning about the system, learning what is sumo and the customs, the Japanese. Then, my second year, I start losing my voice. Was hard talking and I got all kine of problems. Then my ears started getting all swollen because they were trying to push me. And what I was told, [was] that my former boss Takasago, he wanted me to be good. He wanted me to [have] success because first time ever that they did have a young foreigner. We had a lot of Korean kids—the parents were Korean—but they were educated in Japanese school, although the parents came from South or North Korea. Rikidozan was from North Korea, I think. And when they came over, they didn’t go back. They stayed there. And Chinese kids, who were brought up in Japan. They don’t know Chinese. But they were educated in the Japanese system. But a person outside of that, you know, the first non-Japanese was me. And my first year was hard because my stable master [was] really strict about me going out of the building. Every time when I go out, I had to have permission by either Mrs. Takasago or Mr. [Takasago]. If you have an oyakata stable, one of the oyakata who worked in the stable, who has some place to take me, he will tell me where I can go. But for me to go alone, he was strict. Then a year later, I could go on my own. But was hard because I was tired, because they were pushing me. They were making me do a lot of exercise and they were trying to break me into sumo. MI: Do you think they gave you a harder time because you were a foreigner? JK: No. No, because to do well, it’s hard. You yourself have to think about it. The reason why they’re doing that is not to persecute me, it’s to make me strong, and it all depends upon what you think. For me, I thought that it was for my own good—that they were trying to really settle me down. It’s not because you’re Hawaiian, or, American; maybe they felt bad about me because I’m an American. I showed a lot of respect to the Japanese. I work hard. I really work hard, you know. When they tell me to do 100 or 200 shiko [one of the basic sumo exercises], I do more than that. They tell me to do something; I do 20% more, or 30% more. I proved to them; a lot of guys, old-timers, they look at me; they always praised me. You know, you work hard and that was the reason why. I think my respect for the Japanese people—because they always, when I see regular people—not with sumo, but regular people—when we go out together to have dinner, they always say, [lowers his voice] “Erai, erai.” [“You’re great.”] You being a foreigner, and working with the Japanese custom. It’s not like baseball, now! You get your own interpreter, and this is, you know, different. JaK: What did your day look, a regular day? What kind of things happened?

10 Jesse Kuhaulua (Daigoro Takamiyama) Oral History Interview

JK: Well, when I was younger? JaK: When you first started? JK: Okay. When I first started, I usually get up for the first tournament at 6:30 or 7:00. But as a whole, you see, we had 60 wrestlers at that time, so we had only one dohyō [sumo wrestling ring]. But when we go Osaka, or Nagoya, we have two dohyō, so we usually get up about 4:00 in the morning. The young kids get up at 4:00 in the morning and start banging heads, and then gradually, about 7:00, the older wrestlers come in. Then about 8, 8:30, the sekitoris, the older wrestlers, the ranking wrestlers, come into the keikoba [practice room]. And we used to train all the way from 4:00 in the morning until 12:00 noon. Then we have our lunch. We take a bath and have our lunch of the day. Then in the evening, the sekitoris, they don’t eat at the stable, you know. They usually go out with friends. Very seldom that they eat at the beya. If you’re married, you live outside. Then, like the younger kids, we have a curfew at—10:00? Curfew. Oh, that’s the day, you know. So getting up early in the morning, was hard, you know? Especially winter. Ho, it’s cold! Man, it’s real cold. You don’t want to get up, you know. But the first month, or month or two, wasn’t that hard, because they were all nice to me. Then, gradually, they start picking on me, maybe about three or four months later. Then, gradually, they start pushing me around. Then, I start learning things. By the first year, I start learning about the training, the system, and you know, [pause] was hard to eat; the food at that time wasn’t that much. Only what we had, it’s like chankonabe. Chankonabe is like sukiyaki. Have you ever had sukiyaki? Well, it’s something—vegetables, meat, fish. Meat. MI: But was it intended to make you bulk up, to make you bigger? JK: Well, to make you bigger—and only by doing that, you won’t [get bigger]. But there is a lot of rice. Rice—you can eat all what you like, but food is not that much, because before—during World War II, if you eat everything, they’re always making [more] over and over. If the meat run out, you put [more vegetables in the chankonabe] again, you know. But when you get 60 kids that you have cook over, you know—little bit [after] ending of the war, you know, no more food. The food was real…[pause] MI: So, while you are learning the wrestling part… JK: Yeah. MI: You also have to learn the language where you… JK: Language, yeah. MI: How about that? How did you learn that? JK: Well, they were teaching me. MI: Yeah. So, in your free time, you had classes? JK: No, not classes. Just they come up to me and, uh, ((??)). They start pulling my hair—this is mimi [ear], or my nose, [JaK laughs]. They hit me on the head. That’s the way I learned my Japanese. But I got to give credit with them Mongolians. They’re really good at it, you know. They pick up the language. They can talk good, yeah. And Musashimaru and Konishiki and Akebono, they’re good. [Pause] Like, they study! Yeah. I gotta give them credit, you know. [Breathes deeply] Me, I just learned; then I start running, go out night

11 Jesse Kuhaulua (Daigoro Takamiyama) Oral History Interview

times. I didn’t drink in high school. First time I drank, when graduated. You know when everybody graduated? That night, everybody went to Kihei, this beach house, Kihei. That’s the first time I drank. First time I drank and was trying to learn to smoke. But that, I couldn’t. I don’t know what happened, but that I didn’t pick up. So the first year was really learning process, you know. Learning and—training, but they always make me go shiko. Somebody always used to have to be in charge of me. What I mean, be in charge: if they get one older rikishi who was a former jōryō [junior-grade wrestler] but went down to makushita [beginner] because he lost his rank—the only thing he do is, he give me what you call a butsukari-geiko, when somebody push you back and forth in the ring. Just to build your legs and arms and all. And that is hard. And—you know at one time, I did something that became very famous in Japan. [Pause] JaK: What’s that? JK: You know the former Azumafuji? He was the grand champion, but he died [at a] very early age. He died about 50 years old. He was a former grand champion and then he retired. He was a Nishikido [one of the Takasago group of sumo stables] where he got the ((?)) a little while; then he went into professional wrestling with Rikidozan. He was very good with Rikidozan. And when Rikidozan passed away, he quit professional wrestling and went into Nikkai Sports. He was a sports writer for Nikkai Sports. Plus he also was doing banking business, some kind of loan company. He owned this loan company. His wife was running this business. Then he worked part-time with sports. He was writing about sumo, and one day, my stable boss wasn’t in the stable, but he was there. My stable boss, Mr. Takasago, was very strict on what time you get through. You know, when he said 12:00, [drumming fingers] everybody [is] going train in that six hours, not cut short. The boss wasn’t in, but I think other guys were there, the oyakata. After a tournament, everybody wasn’t in the mood of training, wasn’t going up to par, I mean. So what happened—he told one of his guys who always used to give me butsukari-geiko just to push me across the ring, just to—rough up. It’s hard, you know. That training went on about half an hour, just pushing me because—had a lot of time, that’s why, and then they made me push him up about 30 minutes. Maybe more. And I was really—I was telling myself, “Why—what the hell they pushing me around for?” We had a lot of people who was watching our training session. And they were really pushing me, the guy with the butsukari in ’66, before coming over here [to Hawaii] for the sumo tournament. I felt real bad. I was, like, crying, you know. Then—because for tournaments, it’s just only me— they were picking on me. That just make me work, work. Just pushing me, pushing me, and was quite embarrassing then, that little bit crying. Then all of sudden, when I got through, I start standing up. I was really sweating, you know! But also, my face was—you could tell, crying, and, I was really—how can you put it? You know, they were picking on me. Then Azunofuji said, [lowers voice], “Jesse. Naitara akan; namerarenu yo.” [“Don’t cry; you’ll be ostracized.”] Then I got all—we had a lot of people there—so the next thing came out of my mouth, “No, it’s sweat! [JaK and others laugh] It’s not tears! It’s sweat.” Then when he told that, that thing came famous in Japan now. JaK: Your eyes were sweating. JK: Yeah, my eyes—I mean, I was sweating. I was really sweating, but my eyes were also having tears coming right out of there. And when he told that, that became very famous. It was in the sports paper. And—[pause] saying that thing. And everybody got all excited

12 Jesse Kuhaulua (Daigoro Takamiyama) Oral History Interview

about that. Back to the guy—“Is he crying?” I got to say, “No, I’m not crying.” [Everyone murmurs] Ah, it’s not— mean, all of sudden,“Ase,” the first word I said was, “Chigai masu-ase desu.” [“No, it’s sweat.] That’s what I told the oyakata, the former Azumafuji. Then he got all excited, and he can write that in a newspaper. In fact, had some newspaper guys there too, was watching the sumo, eh? So, that’s one of the things that I used to say a lot, you know. MI: Was there ever a point where you thought about quitting? JK: Ah, well, my first year. My first—when I was in the learning process, you know. No—not exactly quit. [Pause] Well, maybe I did. I don’t know. I just was trying hard to get something, but going into my third year, that’s when I felt, [lowers his voice] “Oh, I’m improving. Oh, I can—maybe I can do it,” you know. My second year was like, “Oh, they’re pushing me.” They used to make me do a lot of keiko [practice]. Then [pause] our old building, they tear it down, in ’65, they start building a new building. A beautiful ((?)), you know. At that time, third floor keiko-ba training area was very unusual. Usually a keiko-ba is always on the first floor. But our stable became the second stable. The other stable was Nishonoseki-beya when Taiho was in the beya. They built a beautiful beya; then our stable was the second one. Was on the third floor. First time a stable was—you know. [Pause] Then our beya got better—was easier—because instead of one dohyō, we had two dohyō. But at that time, our former boss Takasago was getting sick, eh? So, a lot of wrestlers was quitting, you know. Was trying to get out. Sumo is hard, because sometime you can get 60 wrestlers. Then, maybe one year later, you get 40 wrestlers. Maybe that thing going on to 20-something wrestlers, then maybe go up again, or, you know, kids always running away, or wants to quit. You scout them. You bring them into sumo. You try to help them, but it’s hard. The life is hard because you’re always washing clothes. In my time, the difficult thing—no more sentakki yo [washing machine], no ki yo [machine] to wash your clothes. It’s all hand [washing]. All hand, that’s why, you know. And winter months, cold! So, winter months, you have to use the furo irori [fire-heated Japanese bath]. You know, when they get through with the furo, you’re going to use the water that to wash your clothes. It’s hard. You have to wash your own clothes, unless you become jūryō or makuuchi [top-ranked divisions in professional sumo]—then the younger kids wash all my clothes, eh? Get me dressed. So that’s good. It took me three years of hardship but after that, I had 16 years of where [everyone starts to laugh] the young kids look after me. You know, when I leave, they dress me. They put my obi around. I tell them, “Hi, go buy something,” or some drinks or something, they all go shopping for me, you know. When they don’t do good things, I hit ‘em on the head. [Makes sound] Bop them on the head, you know. MI: So was it about three years before you began entering the tournaments? Three years of training for you? JK: No, no, no, no. The tournament, you’re in there already. You know, sumo is like a pyramid. It’s like baseball. You have a pyramid. You got the major leagues. AAA baseball, AA baseball, A. In sumo, it’s different but, it’s four, what you call… JO: Levels. JK: Ranks, that you have to work your way up. The lowest is jonokuchi. Then you have jonidan. Then you have sandanme, makushita. Then you have what you call, AAA

13 Jesse Kuhaulua (Daigoro Takamiyama) Oral History Interview

baseball, when you wrestle 50 days, where you get this salary. Then you have the major leagues above that. That is what you call success story, when you become a maegashira wrestler. But maegashira wrestler will be the bottom of—maegashira is no good now. You have to wrestle for a long time. If you can wrestle a long time, then you start getting your popularity. You’ll be getting good. [Pause] JO: So, at the beginning, where do you got your, like, inner strength—you know, to keep going? I mean—the drive? JK: Well, the drive, I think—when I first became—well, that pushing, you know. I think it started, going in—my second year, when they really started push me. And I thought that they were, you know, wrestling about two hours in that training area. That’s long, you know. Usually two guys go in the rings; they’re pounding heads. At the most, it would be about half an hour or 40 minutes. But me, I went over two hours, and the oyakata [stable master] always pick on me. Well, I felt funny but I did want success, you know. I just tried, try and work, because, you know, there’s a lot of kids—they didn’t work as hard as I did. I really work, and that’s why they respect that I have what the Japanese people, the older generation, you know. The older people, yoku wakatta [understood well]. The younger generation now, I don’t think that [chuckles]. But the older people was, and when you start going, better in ranks, everybody wants to take you out. Take you to dinner. Feed you or something. That’s when you start getting more. When I start getting my own tsukebito, my kids—three kids who used to look after me—one was, what you call it, ani-deshi. Ani- deshi is older, senior wrestler. And two young kids, they set all my futon on the floor. When time to clean my room, they come over. They make all the futon. Set everything up, and that’s when you tell yourself, oh, I gotta be here. And you get own salary. You start going out. Get friends. We call patrons, tanimachi. Tanimachi means, like a patron, you know, a guy who look after you. Take you out, have fun. So as that going on, I just doing that. And it’s been over 20 years. Twenty years for a wrestler to wrestle, I mean, there’s a lot—well, not too many people went over 25 years. But like Dewanoumi—what’s his name? From the Dewanoumi-beya, this old-timer who went wrestle over 26 years. But he wrestled when he was 16 years old—14, 15 years old, sumo wrestling. And by just being up there, [it] kept me—I want to be there longer. I want to wrestle longer. I just told myself—every year come along in January, I tell, “Oh, this year I’m going hang in there. I’m going try my best.” And did it for 16 years; I was in the rank of makunouchi. That’s why a lot of people, at that time, consider that’s the Joe DiMaggio of baseball, you know? Because he played baseball for a long time. Same thing with me. But now, there’s ten rackets. Rackets in sumo! Sumo rackets for a long… MI: Longevity. JK: Longevity. Other than—ten! Eight, I’m in there. But the only difference now—since 33 years have passed—the only difference now is, I’m getting lower and lower—I was number two or number one. Now I’m number eight. I was, like—on top! MI: Let me ask you about your wife. When did she come into your life? How? JO: Was she a fan? Sumo fan? JK: No. She is not a sumo fan. Her grandfather used to be a rijichō [chairman of the board of directors] for this tandai. It’s a two-year university.

14 Jesse Kuhaulua (Daigoro Takamiyama) Oral History Interview

JaK: Here, it would be a junior college. JK: It’s like a community college or something for two years. Something specialized, you know. And he used to own a school. [Pause] JaK: So how did you meet her? JK: My former fan club president. [Ryoichi] Sasagawa [introduced her]. He used to be the chairman. [Do] you know Hamada Otoshiro? No? He used to be real big at the Japanese Cultural Center. He used to come over here a lot; he donated money over here. He passed away, maybe about ten years. He was 94 when he passed away. The reason why I’ve known him, I was living for Japan and he came here. He’s originally from Wakayama Prefecture. His wife is a local girl. They got married here, and he came here when he was 17 years old, before World War II. He lived here; then he had four kids, three girls and one boy. They were all educated here, I think. The son is about two or three years older than me. He went back to Japan and he ran the potato chip factory. And he was a big fan of mine, because I was staying at the old Kobayashi Hotel, downtown. He was staying there too, and when Mr. Miho found out that he was going to Japan, then he explained to him about me, saying that, Jesse is going too; if you can, please look after him. And so that’s why he took me over. I went with him. Then, I tell you, he was the one who got me to meet my former boss, Maedayama, at the airport. I’ve known him [until] he passed away. We were close—a very nice man, Otoshiro Hamada. Nice man. [Pause] Plus he was the one who introduced to Mr. Sasagawa. And they both died at 93 or 94. Mr. Sasagawa introduced me to my wife, and that’s how we got—[pause] actually, it was supposed to have been miai [arranged marriage]-like, but I changed everything. MI: So you have a very distinguished long career. You set a lot of records for longevity kind of thing. JK: Yes, I did. MI: What you accomplished, but also, all the longevity records you have. And then, at some point, you start going down. JK: Well, that going down thing, when I was at the age of 38 or 39, because of injury, that thing going bring you down, because hard to be perfect. Not injured, especially when you’re getting older. When I was 30 years old, I twist my ankle. I thought I was going down, first time I went down below, since start[ing], at the rank of nine, number nine. First time I went down, about 14 years later. First time I went below that rank! And at first, eh! You know, you start thinking about that, because I hurt my ankle. The first time that I ever leave a tournament. At the age of 38, I think, I started declining. And then when I hurt my elbow, I just had an operation, which I supposed to have at that time. And I did it. I had it, this year—March. My elbow. MI: Was that pain? Or you couldn’t use it? JK: Well, the thing was, you know when you sleep? That thing get real sore. When I went to see the doctor; the doctor told me that I needed an operation, because if I don’t, I won’t be able to use my hand. So that’s why I did. I spent nine days in the hospital and was okay, except the thing got infected. And I stayed another nine days. They put a tube in here, and for 24 hours a day, for ten days, they were just was running water. That was good—

15 Jesse Kuhaulua (Daigoro Takamiyama) Oral History Interview

bbetter—pushing out, plus all the cracked bones. The chips were in here. Had plenty of that. And I should have gotten them out when I retired, but I told them…[pause] MI: So was it a tough decision to retire from the actual… JK: Well, actually, I had a goal. My goal was to wrestle over 40 years old. Because the longest anybody in sumo world wrestled was the age of 44, during the Meiji period. That’s over a hundred years ago. I wanted to be the first guy to accomplish that. But I didn’t reach [40]—when I retired, I was 39 years old, 11 months, two days —I was 26 days short of my birthday, before retirement. And the reason why I retired in ’84: the Meiji Tournament in Honolulu. ’84 of January, the Hawaii trip. This was going to be my last one, and I wanted to wrestle. And oyakata told me that even the 442nd guys would like you to wrestle the tournament, so that’s why I wanted to wrestle my last tournament here, in Hawaii. So was in ’84. And the thing is, the tournament was in June. I was really out of it. My elbow was hurting, and I, you know, was in pain. And I went to all kine doctors. And some guys told me you have to have surgery and all kine faith healers. [Chuckles] Going to see a Chinese doctor, because I thought they were better at that time, but they didn’t work out. MI: So there’s medically—so throughout your career, you had these aches and pains. How could the wrestlers take care of you? Aches and pains, I mean. Did they take, you know, aspirin or something like that? JK: Well, usually when you go to the doctor, the doctor give you pills and things, drugs and things. Things like that. And I’m left-handed. I write left-handed, I eat with my left hand. Right hand, I tell everybody, I just shake hand. [Laughs] But my right hand, the doctor said, it cannot, because all this is from hitting the young kids, eh? Because they don’t respect aisatsu [proper etiquette]. I’m what you call—I’m very strict about aisatsus. You know, when you say,“Ohayō gozaimasu,” “oyasuminasai,” or “konnichiwa.” [good morning; good night; hello] If they don’t say nothing, I…[chuckles]. MI: Is that right? JK: And that’s why I bend my ankle, although I had an operation on this. Was a success[ful] operation, but I found this hitting the kids, the hard-head kids—[everyone chuckles softly] when you’re trying to teach them patience, and how to be polite, humble—but sometime, you know, you have a hard time—you know, you gotta use force. [Breaks into a laugh] MI: So comparing the time you started to now, are they different? JK: Ah, different. Oh, you cannot do that now. MI: You cannot do that. JK: That? No. Before, you can hit them on the back—with the broomstick—if they do something wrong. But now, if you do that, they gonna sue you. No. You cannot do that since the ’80s; the thing has been changing, you know. Early ’80s. JO: You find yourself culturally—like, I am sansei here, so my thinking is American even though I’m a Japanese body, right? So culturally, you know, if I go to Japan, I know I’m different. JK: Yeah.

16 Jesse Kuhaulua (Daigoro Takamiyama) Oral History Interview

JO: Very different. But how do you know—you live in Japan, when you come here and how do… JK: Yeah, mainly, I’ve been in Japan for 51 years. Six months will be—August 23 will be my six months. I’ve been here a little over five months. And in my speech, I said, heart and soul, but in Japan, I don’t feel like a foreigner. I don’t consider myself a foreigner. Sometime the Japanese people come up to you—“Are you still living in Hawaii?” I tell them, “No, I’m living here now,” you know. MI: You’re a Japanese citizen. JK: I became in—1980, June 3rd—officially, I became a Japanese national. Well, the reason why I did this, you know—when I was at the age of 35, number five Takasago [5th Takasago, the 46th Yokozuna, Asashio Taro III] came up to tell me that sumo association changed the rule about foreigners becoming an oyakata. So you can be, and I had a stock already, because I found out that I bought a stock. My ozumazeki stock. So what happened—all of a sudden, the sumo kyokai—as an active first—I was an active first already, in the ’70s, because I remember going over—three different people I went to see. One, the former ambassador to Japan, “Mike” Mansfield—Ambassador Mansfield; and then Governor [George] Ariyoshi; and this guy who used to be for Pan Am, Mr. David Jones, the public relations manager for the Far East, Hong Kong, and India. He was involved in sumo too. He was very close to me. And as I said, these people, I had no opposition. Nobody said, “Eh, Jesse, you going change your passport? No! Don’t do that.” Nobody. Not one. Even in America, even my brothers and sisters, when I went back to Maui when we got together and I told them that—that I might be going, but we’re still brothers and sisters—and they said, “You go right ahead.” Even my aunties and even the Japanese side too. I talked to my Japanese friend, the president, “Oh! Good!” I had no opposition. Nobody. Not one, you know, not one person even [ever] did. Ambassador Mansfield—I told the ambassador that I had some problems. I went to the embassy to see him. That’s one good guy. At that, the two ambassadors that I will never forget is Mansfield and Mondale, the former vice-president. [Walter] Mondale was also a great guy. Nice. And Mansfield—the thing was, with him, when you visit the ambassador, he serves you coffee; he serves personally. But every time I go, he came to my home! He came to my stable. So he’s one man I really respect and will not forget. [Claps his hands] Same thing with Ariyoshi. My wife and I went [claps hands] to the states, to see Ariyoshi, and then, when we did talk to him about it, and he said, “Change your…,” — [laughs] just like that, you know. JO: Nowadays, there’s no dual citizenship. JK: Yeah, there’s no dual. Well, I think Konishiki is dual, too. Before, used to get, but not now; yeah, but it’s hard to get. Konishiki, Musashimaru, and I think, Akebono, they have dual. JO: So do you have, like, a koseki [Japanese family register], and everything in your register? Do have a koseki in Japan? JK: Yeah. Koseki in Japan. MI: So looking back now, how do you feel about your life?

17 Jesse Kuhaulua (Daigoro Takamiyama) Oral History Interview

JK: I just said, I made the right decision, when I was 19 years old when I went to Japan. I really wanted to stay—well, let’s say this. If I retired earlier—let’s say, when I was 30 years old—there might be a possibility of coming back here to Hawaii. I felt that I still young yet. But I didn’t want to—come back, because I always set my goal. When I made 30, I set my goal to 40. I told myself, I’m going to wrestle until I was 40. I just told myself. Just kept my covenants. That’s why I think I wrestle—I think that’s answering your question, because that was one of the reason. I always set goals. I told myself I’m going to wrestle. I’m gonna break all the records. I’m gonna stay there. It’s hard, and then the only way that I can stay in there is not getting hurt, or don’t have something that can ruin my sumo career. So the only injury that I had was, once I twisted my ankle and the next was my elbow. My elbow—well, I was 39 years old already, you know. But when at the age of 35, I think, the sumo association heard that I was buying the stock, and they had a very big meeting, a board of directors meeting, and they all tell me, [at] the meeting, about foreigners becoming oyakata. They had no problem about that. The only problem, they told my oyakata, is that if you personally can become a Japanese, and my oyakata started explaining that to me. I told him, [quietly] “Okay. [pause] I’ll go ask some people.” So I started asking people. [pause] And everybody’s like—Okay, okay. [breaks into a laugh] Good, good, good. No opposition. Nobody said no. Not one person said no. And the reason for me to become an oyakata will be good, because they will be looking after me for 25 years. Insurance, all those guys, you know, medical insurance, anything within the sumo, and help me with sumo kyōkai. They cannot fire you, and they will be looking after me, and I knew that my popularity—I can get along with people. And, you know, that—encouraged me to stay, to become a Japanese national. And I’m happy about that. As I said, I think I made the right decision at the age of 19. But at that time, I didn’t know. Looking back, you know, in a way, everything went okay. I get my own building. I get one home, in Meguro. That thing is set already. JO: So being an oyakata is a different level now, right? It’s a different experience? JK: Well, it’s helping these kids out, now. Trying to build future wrestlers. As I said, you try to help these kids out. You know, some kids are okay, but some kids can give you problem. Like Hawaii kids—not all the kids were perfect, you know. Akebono—athletic- wise—phenomenal. He’s good, you know. He’s sorta like Konishiki. Smart kid. He’s intelligent. He can speak the language good. He can sing Japanese songs. Akebono, same thing. Musashimaru. But you get kids that are slow—uh, you know, doesn’t care much about being in Japan. Just came over just to see, like when I was young, you know? But everything work out. Like Konishiki, Akebono, they were young—the reason why they’re retired at 30, and I considered 30 as a very young—you’re still young yet. But when you reach 40, that is something different, you know. When I was 30, I told myself that I’m going to wrestle until 40. And when I was 35, I was positive already that I can. I used to work out a lot and build up. A lot of weight training. I used to work hard, but the only thing that got me is that injury thing. My elbow is hard to heal, you know! JaK: You’re using it so much. JK: Because always the chipped bones is in there. Then, instead of getting an operation at that time, I told them, I wait until later on. Then, finally, after 32 years, [chuckles] when I said the thing always getting numb—that’s why, you know. Sore! Hurts, that’s why.

18 Jesse Kuhaulua (Daigoro Takamiyama) Oral History Interview

JaK: How does it feel now? JK: It’s better. That’s why, now, every morning, I go about an hour in the pool, trying to swim. I couldn’t swim, because, you know, when I was young, I was a shy kid. I don’t go to school—when we’re at Iao School, we used to have swimming classes. And I don’t go swimming because I told the teacher that I was afraid of water. But I wasn’t afraid of water, because we used to go down by the iron bridge… MI: Iao Stream? JK: Iao Stream. We used to jump in the pool over there, that’s why. [Pause] Yeah. Please ask me questions! JaK: So how come you didn’t go and swim with them, because you didn’t know… JK: No, I didn’t! So when I retired from sumo, and my wife and my son wanted me to go to join a club. Instead of joining a club, I used to walk a lot. But after 60, I don’t walk that often. My son was telling, “Dad, you gotta join the health club.” I didn’t want to pay that. I’m a little bit pake [Hawaiian for Chinese; often used as a pidgin slang term for tightwad] inside. [soft laugh] Then I joined this club, but I didn’t go there often. I went just because I had hard time walking because of my knee was getting hurt. I had a hard time walking. Then, finally, I met this doctor, Dr. Fukui, who was this number-two man in Kokusai-Mita, Kokusai building, not far away from the Tokyo—I live near the Skytree. You know the Tokyo Skytree? [JO says something] No. That new one. The tallest in the world. I live about five minutes’ walk from my place to Skytree. From my third floor, I can look up and see the Skytree there. But I went to the other side, this hospital, Kokusai-Mita International Hospital. Get this doctor; he’s a spine specialist. And I was so happy, because he helped me lose over a hundred twenty pounds already. And all the doctors, they say, [lowers voice] “Oyakata. Oyakata, onegai kiro, yasete kudasai. Motto raku ni naru.” They always tell me that. “Jesse, lose weight, because, you know, you gonna feel much better. You know, lose weight.” And you know, because I was like, oh! giri-giri [at the edge] back, my diabetes and my—everything was, well, not over, but now—you know, the good thing about it now, I was so happy when first time I went into a MRI. First time I went into that. Before I couldn’t fit in, because my stomach was too big, and every time they tell, “Cannot, cannot.” That’s why I found that my back was better. Spine— everything is getting okay. MI: I think you felt bad all over. All your joints and everything. You were all beaten up. JK: Yes. At 71, cannot help. No, but I feel much better, and, in fact, the doctor came here. He went to this conference in Kona. They share every three years, I think. JO: You know, I think you went through the [Japanese Cultural Center of Hawaii] museum here, in the immigration museum—Japanese immigration museum—so I’m thinking of your picture toward the end there. JK: Yes. JO I’m seeing a connection between Maui being a sugar plantation, and how the sugar plantations recruited people from Japan, and in fact, a lot of your friends, as you were growing up, were Japanese. That’s because of the plantations, you know. So that connection there, you know, in terms of the story.

19 Jesse Kuhaulua (Daigoro Takamiyama) Oral History Interview

JK: Yes. JO: Yeah, from Japan. And what they brought to this—Hawaii, you know, in terms of their values, and how they influenced you, I think, as you were growing up, also. You know, your Japanese friends, and all? You probably thought of them as friends, right? JK: Well, friends. JO: Yeah. Yeah. Primary friends, but still. Without that sugar influence, you would not have happened. JK: No, but at that time, the sugar mill was going down, yeah? JO: Yeah, during that time, yeah. [Discussion about the immigration to Hawaii in 1868] MI: [Pause] You folks [addressing other interviewers] have any more questions? Otherwise, I just to thank you for taking the time. JK: Okay. Good.

Transcribed by JCCH volunteer Arlene S. Ching with some translations by JCCH volunteer Florence Sugimoto; edited by JCCH Resource Center manager Marcia Kemble; completed August 2017.