Bruno Araújo Universidade Federal de Mato Grosso
https://orcid.org/0000-0002-8288-2718 O populismo como Hélder Prior PPGCOM/UFMS. Labcom/UBI. OBSERVARE/UAL fenómeno de comunicação [email protected] - Entrevista com https://orcid.org/0000-0001-8971-3469 Liziane Guazina Gianpietro Mazzoleni Universidade de Brasília [email protected] Populism as a communication phenomenon - https://orcid.org/0000-0002-4765-6918 Interview with Gianpietro Mazzoleni https://doi.org/10.14195/2183-6019_12_11
O Professor Gianpietro Mazzoleni, populistas, especialmente associadas propaganda. There exists no populist do Dipartimento di Scienze Sociali e ao espectro da extrema-direita, em leader in democratic countries that Politiche da Università degli Studi di diferentes países, nos últimos anos. does not use intensively the social Milano, é um dos mais importantes Em vez de uma leitura puramente platforms that are ‘popular’ by them- scholars da área Comunicação Polí- política do fenómeno, o autor desloca selves, that is are cherished, and tica. Com análises pioneiras sobre a a discussão para a área da Comuni- played with by millions of people. mediatização da política, as relações cação Política, convidando leitores e These people are vast potential tar- entre comunicação e populismo e leitoras a pensarem o populismo como gets, easily and cheaply reachable by a política e o entretenimento, esta uma questão comunicacional. A en- the communication machines of popu- última denominada por ele de “po- trevista foi concedida a Mediapolis lists (and of non-populist, to be fair). lítica pop”, suas obras tornaram-se por e-mail, em novembro de 2020. There is a huge amount of empirical referência para inúmeras pesquisas evidence that populist movements are dentro e fora de Itália. Ex-presidente Mediapolis: We know that social rallied and mobilized through Face- da Associazione Italiana di Comu- media are a fertile field in the prolif- book, Instagram, Twitter and other nicazione Politica (que presidiu eration of populist discourses. Despite channels that the Web (including entre os anos de 2013 e 2019), o the evident centrality of the Internet the ‘dark’ one) makes available. That professor italiano foi editor-geral da in the emergence of neopopulism, said, the question whether television The International Encyclopedia of television also played an important is also to be included in the populist Political Communication publicada role in building the image of populist weaponry, needs some distinctions em 2016. Também é autor ou co-au- leaders like Donald Trump and Jair that are basically linked with the fea- tor de livros de destaque, como La Bolsonaro, even before they reached tures of media ecosystems in different comunicazione politica (2012), The the presidency of their countries. How national contexts. In many countries Media and Neo-populist Movements do you evaluate the role of television where independent public broadcas- in a Comparative Perspective (2003) in the popularization of new populist ting is still important the attempts e La politica pop online. I meme e le and authoritarian figures? of political players to use television sfide della comunicazione politica for propaganda are fairly contained. (2019). Nesta entrevista, Gianpietro Gianpietro Mazzoleni: There However, where commercial channels Mazzoleni discute o lugar dos media, is no doubt that the social media are have a large share of the national au- especialmente da televisão, e dos me- the considered a powerful factor in diences one witnesses a shrewd use dia sociais na emergência de figuras the spread of populist creeds and of those channels by populist leaders.
179 In the last three decades the process electorates. Today’s populist leaders scholar doubts that entertainment is a of commercialization of media outlets are only the last comers on the stage key factor in shaping our Lebenswelt, has increased significantly around of popularization of political leader- our life-worlds, that is our sentiments, the globe. That has made easier for ship. In my opinion scholarly resear- tastes, individual and collective iden- power seekers to establish personal ch, perhaps too concentrated on the tity, sociability and so on. Speaking relations with the media owners and web dynamics, is underestimating the of entertainment in relation to politi- secure their patronage. It was the big role that television still holds in cs, in my and Anna Sfardini’s book case of Mediaset-Berlusconi in the shaping contemporary politics. Political Pop (2009) we distinguish 1990s, if a special case as the media between “political infotainment” and mogul himself geared his TV empire Mediapolis: Some recent studies “politainment”. In the former case, towards his own political ambitions, have found that individuals who are we have to do with the tendency of it was certainly the case of the Fo- too exposed to TV entertainment commercial media (but the public me- x-Trump alliance, where the cable programs are more likely to vote for dia have it too) to present the political network helped the tycoon to beco- populist candidates (Tesei, Durante news – even the serious and dramatic me the leader of American staunch & Pinotti, 2019). As a scholar of ones – with narrative patterns and conservatism and accompanying him “politica-pop”, a concept you adopt visual features that cater first to the up to winning the presidency, and to qualify the relationship between needs of the audiences (benefitting beyond. Trump could also capitalize politics and entertainment, what are the ratings of the channel!) and then on his being a TV celebrity, who the aspects, formats, languages, or to the institutional duty to tell the gained popularity hosting for more news values of the media that explain news. This entertainment priority is than a decade the reality show “The this phenomenon? thought to be an influential factor in Apprentice”. He certainly owns a the construction of views of political great deal of his success to the ‘old Gianpietro Mazzoleni: Popular reality. Whether it is negative or po- medium’. These and other perhaps culture – of which television is one sitive it depends from which normative minor examples of political leaders of the most powerful engines – is the perspective one chooses. The fact is who used cunningly the TV screens food for mind enjoyed on a daily basis that politics, also the hard one, is of- to build their careers (and at times to by all people. The long-term effects ten framed with elements that belong experience sudden declines) show that of such ‘consumption’ on the people’s to the world of diversion rather than popular media and TV in particular mindsets, knowledge, emotions, and of engagement. “Politainment” is the are crucial tools to emerge as leaders conducts are difficult to measure over other format of pop politics, that has and to conserve their influence on time on large scales. However, no to do directly with the entertainment imagery. It presents two sub-formats. all instances, populist candidates gain media bear responsibility on diffusing On the one side politics is a much benefit from all this forms of pop poli- populist sentiments, research has sought-after matter by fiction, comedy, tics, at times engaging themselves in underlined that their contribution can satire, drama. Cinema, television, fabricating it. Research on the ‘effects’ be both unintended and intentional. pop art and the like have produced of pop politics on people’s voting, is Fictional programs (films or series) numberless of works of political en- still at the early stages and new fin- portraying political classes as corrupt tertainment, and audiences seem to dings are welcome. However, I prefer and cynical can in the long run dif- enjoy it a great deal. On the other to think that the most interesting fuse anti-political beliefs, eventually hand, we observe often politicians effects are those on the levels of parti- exploited by populist leaders. That is and leaders making appearance on cipation, on its new forms, on the ways a form of “media populism”, built-in TV shows not so much for the sake of “connective activism” is implemented the entertainment nature of the media exposing their views as for enjoying in various political contexts and so on. industry, worldwide. In addition to moments of popularity. It is not in- Pop politics off- and on-line can be a this, there is a media populism of the frequent that some politicians perform compelling arena for political battles. adversarial kind. When independent themselves in a show or in company of (news)media hammer for months and pop celebrities. A more recent form of Mediapolis: In many countries, years the ruling political parties pop politics has to do with the Web, the coverage of politics has been and governments on their alleged that is the “meme”. Political figures, very marked by high visibility to the wrongdoings, on their contradictions, ideas, statements, events are remixed subject of corruption. Generally, this scandals and corruption, they trigger – usually in ironic and sarcastic to- type of coverage has a strong persona- in the populace negative sentiments nes - with contents of pop culture and lization and pressure on institutions, towards the political castes, what spread through the social media with often with a media’s punitive perspec- have been called “anti-politic” atti- the purpose either to support a cause tive. Would this attitude be related to tudes. This criticism of the (usually or to damage political adversaries. a kind of media populism? How could mainstream) media is seen populist With Roberta Bracciale, I have just we think of the relationship between in substance and tones, and is ea- published a book on the phenomenon media populism and the mediatization sily picked up by political figures of political memetics (La politica pop of corruption scandals in contempo- and movements who are populist in online, 2019), where we give account rary democracies? their programs. It is clearly a media of how politics and political leadership populism of unintentional kind that are changing thanks to this digital Gianpietro Mazzoleni: Whe- goes hand in hand with political po- form of political communication. In ther television and other traditional pulism of players outside the world
181 of information. I have spoken of a media populism and populist com- be nicknamed “twitter-in-chief” – has sort of concrete “complicity”. It has munication during this period? Do made clear that much populism is been certainly the case of recent you consider that recent years’ aca- in fact a communication phenome- Italian populism, where the Five Star demic production has helped to give non, and as such must be taken into Movement and the Salvini’s Lega a more precise meaning to populism, account when explaining political have prospered on a largely diffused or this concept remains markedly extremism. That said, the scholarly anti-caste, anti-politics nurtured by ambiguous? literature on populism has come up the mainstream media, newspapers, with excellent studies on defining and and TV news. On the other hand it is Gianpietro Mazzoleni: Twenty investigating populism, by authors as undoubted that some media openly years seems a very short time from a Cas Mudde, Benjamin Moffit, Dun- endorse populist agendas. The deli- historian’s perspective, but the last can McDonnell, just to name a few of berate support is better seen in tabloi- two decades in scholarly research the several authors. On the political d-kind news programs that rally for marked an extraordinary surge in communication front there are too populist stances, either by granting research on several aspects of poli- copious journal articles to quote, more air time to news of interests of tical communication. As mentioned, but a book in my opinion deserves a populists or also promoting the diffu- the diffusion of the social media is special mention: Populist Political sion of disinformation. A clear case the most significant phenomenon Communication in Europe (2016) by here is again Fox News. that has attracted most attention. T. Aalberg, F. Esser, C. Reinemann et The rise of populisms can well be al. It sets the basic criteria to identify Mediapolis: Recently, you pu- listed as a phenomenon that has also and grasp the articulated nature of blished with Cristian Vaccari (Uni- attracted huge attention on part of populist discourse that go beyond the versity of Loughborough) an overall academic research. The communi- European context. More research is on the last 20 years of Political cation dimension is of course dear soon to see the light, especially trying Communication in the Italian Journal to our scholarship but has been long to explain Trumpism and its impact on “Comunicazione Politica”. Looking at overlooked by political scientists, tra- democracy in America. the previous two decades of Political ditionally more focused on party and Mediapolis: After the well-suc- Communication studies, it seems institutional processes. However, the cess experiences of political leaders impossible to understand political communicative behavior of Trump, his like Trump, Bolsonaro, and Salvini communication research without flamboyant narcissism staged on all on social media to gain popularity, studies on media and populism. What media, his accusations and personal engagement, and votes, what can we has changed in the understanding of insults, his compulsive twitting – to expect of next-generation political leaders in terms of logics of uses of but also a powerful asset for the cit- digital in democracies under social izens defending civil liberties and and political pressures? democratic institutions.
Gianpietro Mazzoleni: Social media are here to stay, for long. References Television has been in the political Aalberg, T., Esser, F., Reinemann, C., domains for seven decades, and one Stromback, J., & de Vreese, C. does not see its decline. Its tech- (eds.) (2017). Populist political nology has widely changed, but its communication in Europe. New function in politics is being recreated York: Routledge. every day. I think that social media Durante, R., Pinotti, P., & Tesei, A. will continue to be a powerful tool (2019). The political legacy of in the hands of all users. Political entertainment TV. American Eco- leaders of all colors, as well as chal- nomic Review, 109(7), 2497-2530. lengers of all colors will rely on them Mazzoleni, G., & Bracciale, R. (2019). to conduct their political battles. I La politica pop online. I meme e le do not see an unbalance in favor of sfide della comunicazione politica. any party, provided that all players Bologna: Il Mulino. enjoy the same access. Of course Mazzoleni, G. (2012). La comunicazione Trump, Bolsonaro, Salvini command politica. Bologna: Il Mulino. extraordinary resources in financial Mazzoleni, G., Stewart, J., & Horsfield, terms and organizational power. B. (ed.). (2003). The media and However, as the phenomenon of neo-populist movements in a com- independent political memes demon- parative perspective. Westport, CT: strates, one needs very little to troll Praeger. a big propaganda machine. Without Mazzoleni, G., & Vaccari, C. (2020). 20 falling into the overoptimistic views, Years of political communication it is undeniable that the Internet is a scholarship: accomplishments, double-edged sword for democracy, changes, and challenges. Comuni- it can represent a threat by autocrats cazione Politica, 21(1), 5-19.
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