Latter-Day Saint Women Podcast Transcript Andrea Veronica Munoz Spannaus | the Lord Multiplies Our Efforts

July 21

Latter-day Saint Women Podcast Transcript Andrea Veronica Munoz Spannaus | The Lord Multiplies Our Efforts

SHALYN. Hello and welcome to the Latter-day Saint Women podcast, where we share the legacy of women of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. You'll get to know the faithful woman who shaped our past and hear from inspiring women of faith today. I'm Shalyn Back.

KARLIE. And I'm Karlie Guymon, we are your cohosts. And today we are so thrilled to welcome to the studio Andrea Veronica Munoz Spannaus as our guest. Andrea, welcome.

ANDREA. Thank you very much. I'm happy to be here.

KARLIE. We're so happy to have you. As a quick introduction, Andrea was called to serve on the Relief Society Advisory Council just last year in 2020. She was born in Argentina and joined the Church when she was just nine years old with her family. She's shared with us just the wealth of experiences and opportunities that she had, at a pretty young age, to serve and to lead in the Church, and she is very passionate about how we can give those same opportunities to the young people in our lives. Andrea also served as a young missionary in Argentina and then as a mission leader with her husband in Mexico. And personally, I've just loved getting to know Andrea, she's so wise and so loving, and we're just excited that our listeners get to hear from her today. So again, Andrea, thank you so much.

ANDREA. It's a pleasure to be here.

SHALYN. Andrea, you shared with us that you feel very strongly about discussing how as women we can help strengthen children and youth in the Church, this rising generation. And we want to begin by asking why this topic has specifically been on your mind? Why is it important to you?

ANDREA. Well, the other day, I read something Elder Eyring said in 2004. Speaking of the youth, I'm going to read it. He said, “Many of them are remarkable in their spiritual maturity and in their faith, but even the best of them are sorely tested, and the testing will become more severe.” So, we have the responsibility to teach them, to support them, and to strengthen the faith in Jesus Christ. They have a great and sacred task to do before the Second Coming of the Lord in gathering Israel. So, what a privilege. We are living in a wonderful time where evil is growing, but there is also growing goodness, revelation, and heavenly knowledge. So the heavens are really open, we don't need to be afraid of asking the Lord, asking for knowledge with faith. We need to increase our faith, no doubts, as our prophet asked us in the last general conference, I think this is key. So therefore, on one hand, we have this adversity growing, and on the other hand, we need to gather Israel. So as parents, families, friends, leaders, we need to make our best effort to help the children, the youth, single adults, to grow to their potential, to achieve this great work of gathering Israel.

SHALYN. I really love how you just emphasized, the heavens are really open. And I think it's cool because as you said that, I just imagined us as women, in trying to guide children, that we can receive revelation, how to do that. But then also that's an example to them. When we're calling down the powers of heaven, they can see that and they can see that it's a normal and natural part of our lives to receive revelation, and hopefully they can follow that example.

ANDREA. Yeah. That's wonderful.

KARLIE.

And I just think it's interesting that there is both, right? There is good and there is evil. And we know that good can overcome evil. And it's kind of like focusing on that and letting that grow and letting us find hope in that. And I just think it's so interesting 'cause I was so surprised that when we reached out to you, a member of the Relief Society Advisory Council, that you were thinking about the young people. And it was fun to hear your story because I think that knowing your story and knowing your past, it helps me understand why this is so important to you. As we shared earlier, you joined the Church at a young age, and you had to defend your testimony of the gospel at a very young age. You attended a Catholic school, you were given callings to teach just as a teenager, and then you were called as the Young Women president just at age 18, right as you were finishing Young Women yourself. So we'd love for you to share your experiences with our listeners and then how you grew from these really unique opportunities at such a young age.

ANDREA. Yeah, of course. So, well, as you were saying with my family, we joined the Church when I was nine years old, and my sister and I were raised in a Catholic family, and because of that, we attended a Catholic school. And after our baptism in the Church, we continued attending this Catholic school, and my mother told my sister and me not to tell the nuns at school that we had changed our religion.

KARLIE. Yes.

ANDREA. But something happened, and when I was 13 years old, in one religion class, my sister told the nun the truth, that we were not Catholics. So the bell rang, the class was finished, and this nun came to me without losing a minute.

KARLIE. Directly.

ANDREA.

Yeah. So my sister didn't have time to let me know what had happened, so the nun took me to the library where we had a one-on-one conversation, and she asked me, “Is that true that you are not Catholics?” And well, for the first time, I was able to defend the Church, to tell her about my testimony with the power of the Spirit. I remember I was crying and talking all at the same time, and I remember this feeling very well, because for the first time I was able to defend the knowledge of the truth, and it felt so good. And of course, that was our last year in that school.

KARLIE. That was the end.

ANDREA. Yeah. So growing in Argentina, we belonged to a small, medium-sized ward, and that was a blessing for the youth in our ward, because we were usually called to help teach the Primary kids when we were very young. And that was my case, when I was around 14 years old. And then, as you were saying, as soon as I finished Young Women, I was called to be a ward Young Women president. So those experiences were a wonderful opportunity for me to grow, to be mentored by the members of my ward who knew me, who loved me, who knew my heart, my skills, the skills I didn't have, who were willing to nurture me and to help me in strengthening my faith in Jesus Christ. So I remember being in ward councils and being taught by my wonderful, and also very young, bishop, Bishop Torre. So it was a defining time for my testimony, and you know what, after 35 years, I'm still friends with one of my young women at the time, my beautiful friend Vera.

SHALYN. That's so neat.

ANDREA. Yeah. And you know, my mother still belongs to that ward. So when I go to Argentina, I always visit them and there are a few members from that time and, yeah, it's great to feel that love again.

KARLIE. Such a great foundation. And I mean, I just think of... You were a very young member yourself when you're asked to turn around and teach

children and then be a mentor for other teenagers, other young women, and I just think there's so much that we can learn from that. Even from the opportunity that you had to defend your faith. I think if we can see these opportunities for growth as ways to solidify the testimony of young people, instead of like, I don't know if they can do that, I don't know if they have a testimony that they could defend, I don't know if they would be able to teach. Instead, like you said, you were nurtured and mentored and you were in such a loving environment where people, it sounds like, just took you under their wing and they saw this was the way for you to grow and develop your own testimony.

ANDREA. Yeah, it was a great experience.

SHALYN. Well, and I think there's a lot to be learned from your experience as such a young Young Women president. You really were their peer... Yeah, more of a peer, but I imagine you kind of learning together in that environment, and I just think anybody can learn from that. I think of Primary teachers...

KARLIE. A good way to think of it.

SHALYN. Learning together with the children and Young Women leaders, even if they're 30, 40, 50 years older than the young women, they can learn together. And that was my experience in Relief Society too, we're certainly just doing it together, I didn't feel like I was necessarily teaching anybody anything, but I just think that's a great concept that I was thinking of as you described your experience.

ANDREA. Yeah, we are still growing in the advisory council. Always growing.

KARLIE. Yes! It doesn't stop.

ANDREA. No.

SHALYN. And that's kind of a great thing, and hopefully can maybe ease some of the pressure that some people are feeling if they're in callings that are stretching them.

KARLIE. Yes, yes.

SHALYN. So the next question we wanted to ask you, Andrea, is how can we as women more fully and appropriately involve girls and young women in our lives in the work of salvation? To give them opportunities for growth and to help them to learn? And I'm specifically thinking too, of involving young women who may experience unique challenges. For example, those who experience anxiety or other mental health challenges, youth that may have other disabilities, those who identify as LGBTQ, etcetera. How can we involve them more fully?

ANDREA. Well, we now have an excellent opportunity to do minister with 14-year-old girls and older.

KARLIE. Which is so fantastic.

ANDREA. It's wonderful, it's a blessing for us and also for them, I think it's a win-win situation. And their energy is contagious, they have great ideas when ministering, they know how to reach others in different ways, and they know social media. They are very skilled. We need to let them lead. We need to trust them. Also, now we have the blessing of having them as part of the missionary work committee and the temple and family history committee, so we need to

do the exercise to let them talk, and we need to hear them more. They are entitled to receive revelation. And we need to nurture our testimonies by hearing the power of their testimonies, so they have the opportunity to lead, also to teach classes, to serve. For example, I love JustServe. This tool is wonderful. I think it's a great tool to serve shoulder to shoulder with them, to spend time together, to get to know them better in a different setting.

KARLIE. Service is a great opportunity for that.

ANDREA. Yeah, so I think it's excellent. And then talking about young single adults, my husband and I belong to a young single adult Spanish-speaking ward here in Salt Lake City.

KARLIE. I love that.

ANDREA. And this year a new Relief Society presidency was called, and I'm delighted to see how these four sisters in the presidency are united and resourceful. One of the first things they did was a poll asking all the Relief Society sisters about their spiritual need, social and emotional needs.

KARLIE. Oh wow.

ANDREA. Yeah, and with all that information, they were planning the activities, the Sunday lessons, the ministering, so that was a wonderful example for me to see their skills in the service of our Lord.

KARLIE. Yes.

ANDREA. And they are spiritual, they know the scriptures, they have great faith in our Lord, and they have a personal relationship with the Heavenly Father. So they are really resourceful, they know how to use the tools that the Church provides. And also, all the members of the Stake Relief Society Presidency are young single adult sisters, and it's beautiful …

KARLIE. That's beautiful.

ANDREA. … To be a witness of their growth, and they are growing their testimonies by leading and by doing, so important, by doing, and they are growing in faith as we are. We were talking that, we all need to have more faith, we all need to be closer to our God, we all need to love more. So for the last part of your question, I think love is the answer to this, how we can involve young women who may experience unique challenges, because every person is different. So this beautiful diversity makes our hearts expand and grow, so I think love is the perfect plan.

SHALYN. It's very important that you're saying, you know, this beautiful diversity, and I think that the gospel of Jesus Christ does provide us the opportunity to be unified on so many things, while at the same time bringing together everybody's unique background and experiences, and then taking that and allowing people to lead, and trusting them, and really, they're not gonna mess anything up. So I love that you're saying, you know, these young adults are doing everything.

KARLIE. A phenomenal job.

SHALYN. And they're doing such a great job, and I think that that's such a neat perspective that you have, as you're watching them, totally following the Spirit, receiving this revelation, and then there's been so much good that's come from that.

ANDREA. Yeah. Trust is key. And love.

KARLIE. Yes. Trust and love. Those are both perfect kind of answers, I feel like, to that question. And I think you gave us some really great ideas. As far as ministering and just service in general, is always looking for opportunities to involve the girls and the young women in the ward. And even I like that you're saying, even our young adults are part of that rising generation. I think the way that you and your husband view them as people with great ideas and with great faith, and really leaders, right? And I've loved... We've talked before on the podcast, is women seeing themselves as spiritual leaders, in the home and in the Church, and that's what you're describing, I think. So in talking with you, Andrea, and just thinking about this, I know our prophet, President Nelson, spoke directly to the rising generation in 2018, inviting them to, you know, be participants in the gathering of Israel. And I think we all remember he was very clear that sacrifice was involved in this. He invited them at the time to take a break from social media, to be earnest in devoting time and energy and talents to the Lord's cause. So, we have a couple of questions related to the sacrifices asked of the rising generation, and really to all of us as covenant members of the Church as we engage in this cause. So two questions. First, how you have seen blessings from the sacrifices that you've made in your life in serving the Lord and in being involved in the gospel of Jesus Christ? And then second, and I think this is such an important question for women and all of us, is how to deal with the stress and the overwhelm that can come from these sacrifices or from these responsibilities and just our effort, I think, to stay on the covenant path? How can we still feel joy and peace?

ANDREA. Well, maybe one thing I could thank the Catholic school for is my desire to please God imbedded in my bones.

KARLIE. Yes.

SHALYN.

That's great.

ANDREA. And for me, love is the best answer, always. So, “if ye love me, keep my commandments.” Nothing is more clear than this short phrase from the lips of our Savior. You can call it a sacrifice, but for me, was a sacred opportunity and honor to serve our Lord as a young woman serving in my ward, as a young missionary, teaching in the Argentina Resistencia Mission. Raising and teaching my daughters the plan of salvation, serving with wonderful missionaries in Cuernavaca, Mexico, and now serving in the advisory council. So each one of them were opportunities of growing my love for Heavenly Father, for Jesus Christ, and for the Holy Ghost. Opportunity... An opportunity to know them better, to feel their mercy for me, to be taught by them. And now, answering your second question, yes, feeling overwhelmed is part of the deal for me at times, because I'm a doer. I'm still learning the meaning of, Do not run faster or labor more than you have strength.

KARLIE. Yes.

ANDREA. So do you wanna know what I learned?

KARLIE. Yes please.

SHALYN. Yeah.

KARLIE. Totally needed.

ANDREA. Okay, this is what I learned. If I am not feeling joy in my calling, there is something wrong. There is something wrong with me and not with the

Church. So this is what I do in those cases. First, I need to stop and I need to examine my thoughts, and I need to forgive myself, to have self-compassion. And then I need to ask Heavenly Father to forgive me. And then I like to ask Heavenly Father to teach me. What do I need to do differently? What is the thought that I need to change? Another good thing that helps me is to read my journal. I read those spiritual experiences I have had in the past. And for me, this exercise helps me remember the character of Christ, that He is merciful, that He's always there to help me. And another thing that is very helpful for me is to be in nature, to enjoy outdoors, the trees, the birds, the sky, the beautiful creation, helps me to slow down, meditate, be more connected with Christ. Because when I am in such a state of stress or overwhelm, I tend to lose that connection.

KARLIE. Yeah, it kind of blocks those feelings.

ANDREA. And I like to remember another thing from Jesus Christ. Remember when He multiplied the bread and the fishes, so there's five loaves of bread and twelve fishes was all that they have. They gave Jesus Christ all they have, and Jesus Christ multiplied those. And it was sufficient for all the people that were there.

KARLIE. So many people. So many people.

ANDREA. It was enough. So sometimes I need to remember that I'm offering all that I can at that moment. And all we can, could be different in each season of our lives. Living near God gave us joy and peace, and I know this is true, I know this is true, but we live in a fallen world, and we are human beings, so there is no chance not to fall here and there. But the good news is that we can always return. And I mean always, always, we can return to the Lord.

KARLIE. And that's what He wants, and that is His invitation to us over and over again. I think this is such an important conversation. I just think you

shared so many principles. I love, first, that you said that it's not supposed to be stressful. It's not supposed to be so difficult and miserable that we can't feel the joy of serving, because that's what it's supposed to be. And I think what I hear as you describe this is, there's just a lot of humility that's involved. How do you bring yourself to that point where you can be humble enough to calm yourself down and to remember what is important and that the Lord will help you?

ANDREA. Well, I think that to be near the scriptures, to know that our Lord is always there, that He has all the answers, gives me the power in that time that I can reach to Him and He will help me because He knows me and He loves me.

SHALYN. And that's really bringing me a lot of comfort as I'm thinking of my calling, specifically. I'm just thinking of ways that I can find joy, and I think it is knowing... 'Cause I'm not necessarily giving my best. But I think sometimes it's because we're discouraged and it feels like there's only so much we can do. But then... The example from the scriptures that you gave, when we're giving all that we have without becoming overwhelmed and things like that, when we're giving all we have, it's never gonna be enough, but that doesn't matter. That's not what matters. Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ can take our efforts and then they'll make it enough. And I just think, that's definitely gonna bring me joy. If I can just let go of that, truly focus on doing my best with what I have, then it's eventually gonna be enough.

KARLIE. And I think what is really challenging, and you've said this is something you're still learning. That all we can is different for everyone, so it's useless to compare like, well, she's doing all of that and I'm only doing this and I should be doing more, I could be doing more, it's like, we're the only ones that can really know what that all we can is, or this idea of bringing the bread and fishes, it's like, we're the only ones that know how much we have to give, so we do that and then we do trust that it is different when we're serving the Lord, because He compounds our efforts, He adds to it, He magnifies it. So everything that you've shared has been so meaningful to me, and I know will be really meaningful to those listening.

SHALYN. Absolutely.

KARLIE. Thank you.

SHALYN. Andrea. You've taught that there is a deep power that comes when we truly believe that we are children of loving heavenly parents. And we would just love to know, specifically, how you've learned this, and then how each of us can gain a deeper knowledge of this truth?

ANDREA. Well, I learned it when I was a little girl, but I really tested that knowledge when I was a young mom. You know when your kids are little and you feel overwhelmed for all that you have to do, but at the same time, it looks like you are doing nothing really important, and everything is so... routine.

KARLIE. The same... Almost the same every day.

ANDREA. Yeah. So one day I started to feel really miserable, and I had an impression from the Spirit and one very weak voice in my mind that told me that I needed to repeat, “I am a daughter of a Heavenly Father.” So I thought, well, it was a very simple thing to do, but I decided to do it anyway. So what do I have to lose? Right? Simple. So I started to say, “I am a daughter of a Heavenly Father,” out loud. And to repeat it several times until I really believe it. And I kept doing this in my worst moments of the day when I thought, I can't do this anymore.

KARLIE. Yes.

ANDREA.

So when I felt so bad, I started to do that. And suddenly, a few days after, I started to feel the power that comes when you really, really believe, when you really know who you are. And we are daughters of a Heavenly Father and a Heavenly Mother, all powerful, almighty. And once we really know that, we go ahead and wonderful things come.

SHALYN. And I'm just thinking too... Once we know that, it just better equips us to do that day-today, over and over, kind of thing, and then it helps us to be anchored when our kids ask questions about the gospel. That's just been on my mind 'cause I love the questions that my kids ask, and it's just so fun to explore it with them when my daughter is asking about the Holy Ghost and who He is and where He is, and … anyway.

KARLIE. It just gives you an opportunity to kind of examine that for yourself.

SHALYN. Yeah. And I think that does come from just the basic understandings and it's like, I don't have to know everything. We can kind of work on that together and figure it out together and talk about it, and it's been so... It's been really fun, actually. And so meaningful, but I appreciate you sharing your experience of just repeating that to strengthen you.

ANDREA. Yeah, I love it. Yeah, it was wonderful. Wonderful exercise.

KARLIE. Yes.

ANDREA. I still do it.

KARLIE. Yes!

ANDREA. Sometimes I needed to do it.

KARLIE. You need that.

ANDREA. Yeah.

SHALYN. I'm gonna start doing it. I love it.

KARLIE. Well... And what I thought was interesting in this conversation of the rising generation is this is the very first and most important thing that children and youth are taught. My little two-year-old can sing "I Am a Child of God.” It's very cute. And then I think in Young Women, that's the very first line of the theme: I am a daughter of Heavenly Parents. And so I like your story because there's something about saying it and maybe pondering it and meditating on, what does this even mean for me in my everyday life? And the more we internalize that, the more we can teach the children and youth in our lives, whether they're children or those in our ward or those that we're serving. So I do think it does take... Taking it to the next level of understanding. And like, What does this really mean? Like you said, to bring that power.

ANDREA. Yeah. President Nelson says that we need to know our identity and our purpose. It's so important.

KARLIE. It really is.

SHALYN. Well, just guides everything that we do.

KARLIE. Yes.

SHALYN. All of our decision-making.

ANDREA. Yeah, everything.

KARLIE. And can make such a big difference when you're in the trenches of whatever, you know, of being a young mom or of other challenging life situations. So Andrea, we want to switch gears a little bit, this is kind of...

SHALYN. Or a lot.

KARLIE. Yeah, a lot. Kind of heading off in a totally different direction, but you mentioned that one of your biggest roles in serving and in leading the rising generation was raising your daughters. You have two daughters, and your daughters were adopted, and we haven't really had the opportunity on the podcast to talk with someone who has this experience, and we know that so many people listening would benefit from hearing your story and your experience and your testimony, your wisdom on this topic. So we would love for you to share your experience and how you felt God's love for you and your husband, as well as your daughters, through this process and this experience of adoption?

ANDREA. Yeah, of course. When Alin, my husband, and I got married, we already knew that adoption was a way to grow our family. When I was 11, 12 years old, I battled with ovarian cancer, and this was a consequence of that illness.

KARLIE.

Shocking.

ANDREA. So, for me to adopt is to be willing to have a personal love lesson from heaven. And, as you were saying, we have two beautiful daughters and both are adopted. Two miracles, two personal life lessons from heaven. So this is a story with our first daughter. When the birth mother chose us to be the parents of her baby, we were so happy. So thrilled. After years at least... So it was our time. So the birth mother didn't know if it would be a girl or a boy. But one day, talking with one of my dear friends, she told me about a dream she had. And in her dream, she saw me entering her church with a baby girl in my arms. So after that, I knew the baby would be a girl. And another eight months later, I was driving to go to work, and I knew from a strong impression of the Spirit that the baby would be born that day.

KARLIE. Oh wow.

ANDREA. So it was like that. At noon my husband called me on the phone to tell me that the baby was born and it was a baby girl. So these two spiritual hints were key for me to survive the next almost three months, when the things got really complicated.

KARLIE. Yes.

ANDREA. And when we were ready to go pick her up, we receive a phone call, we were entering the airplane and we receive that phone call telling us not to go yet because there was a problem with the adoption papers. So this problem was...

KARLIE. So discouraging.

ANDREA. Yeah, we were crying. So this problem was not solved in a few days, not in a month. For me, almost three months. These three months were the worst three months of my life, because this was my thought at that time: I have a daughter and I can't be with her. So that, for me, was really, really hard. And at the beginning, I was really mad, and then I was sad, really sad, and then I was humble. And the difference in my feelings was a visiting teacher message that wasn't... This was in 1986, that I found in a Liahona, with a quote from Elder Maxwell. The message was talking about patience. So it said something like, “When in the middle of our trials, if we don't have patience, we cannot learn anything or we’ll learn less, but if we have patience, it will make all the difference. It will allow God to teach us.” So I tried to do my best to apply that good counsel to my life. And after almost three long months, we were able to go get her and bring Sophia home.

KARLIE. Wow.

ANDREA. With Sophia, we learned a different capacity of life and... And I also learned patience. Okay, so after a few years, I tried to get pregnant with a treatment, but unfortunately that pregnancy ended up in an ectopic pregnancy. So... Well, a few months later, we receive a phone call to tell us that there was a mother who wanted to give her baby for adoption. So that was a very happy day. We went there.

KARLIE. What wonderful news.

ANDREA. We talked to her and she told us she would deliver in a couple of months. So that night, as you can imagine, once I was in bed I couldn't sleep because all of these ideas and emotions were in my mind.

SHALYN. And you don't have nine months to prepare you.

CHIT CHAT.

ANDREA. And then all of a sudden, I remember some detail about the conversation with the birth mother. That baby would be born on the first week of August, she said. And I immediately started counting with my fingers the month, and I realized that if the pregnancy that I just lost had gone to term, that baby would have been born precisely during the first week of August.

KARLIE & SHALYN. Wow.

ANDREA. So... Well, it was wonderful. But the trial in this case was waiting almost five years to complete the adoption papers.

SHALYN. Oh no.

KARLIE. So challenging.

ANDREA. Yeah. It was a long, long time, but after that five years, what can I tell you, that the sealing day, the four of us kneeled at the altar of the temple, surrounded by our family and our dear friends. That was another love sign from Heaven. What a wonderful life this is. How I love to be alive, having eyes to see this love tokens from our God. No doubt He's a merciful God, He will fight our battles and He will teach us along the way. And if we have patience... Even better.

SHALYN. Well, Andrea, this has been such a neat conversation that I think has covered so much, but a theme that we could pull from this is Love and Trust. That's what we began with, and that still has continued, especially

with so many of your personal experiences. I think that's so neat. We would love to know, just as we conclude the episode, is there anything more you would like to say to the women of the Church or to those listening to the podcast?

ANDREA. The Lord loves us, and with this knowledge, we can go ahead putting our trust in Him, in His timing. And with Him as a partner, we can confront our Goliaths and defeat them. We have the guidance of the Holy Ghost, we made covenants with our Lord in the temple, and He gave us wonderful and sacred promises. And we have priesthood power, and we can increase this priesthood power with our righteousness. So I'm very optimistic in spite of all the challenges we face. So life... It's a wonderful adventure.

SHALYN. Thank you so much. Andrea, it's been so wonderful to talk to you today.

KARLIE. Yeah, we really appreciate you sharing.

ANDREA. Thank you for inviting me.

KARLIE. Yeah, we really appreciate you sharing these personal experiences and stories that we know will really touch and inspire those listening. So thank you. And to our listeners, thank you so much for tuning into this episode of the Latter-day Saint Women podcast. If you enjoyed this episode as much as we've enjoyed talking with Andrea, we hope that you'll share it with friends and family and those who would benefit from her experiences. We always wanna make sure listeners are aware, the podcast is available just about anywhere you listen to podcasts, so the Church's Website, also available on the Gospel Library App, the Saints Channel Mobile App, Apple Podcast, Google Podcast, Spotify, and just about anywhere you can get your podcast. So thank you so much for your support. Share and follow along and subscribe. We appreciate it so much.

SHALYN. And we love hearing from you, we love reading your reviews. So please, if there's any feedback that you have or a topic you'd like to hear addressed or a guest you'd like to hear from, just let us know. Feel free to leave a review on Apple Podcasts or contact us at [email protected]. Finally, we'd love to thank our editor, Curt Dahl, and our producer, Matthew Mangum, and the rest of our team who support this podcast. Until next week, I'm Shalyn Back.

KARLIE. And I'm Karlie Guymon, thanks so much for listening.