Statements of Robert F. Williams
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STATEMENTS OF ROBERT F. WILLIAMS HEARINGS (with subsequent staff interviews) BEFORE TH SUBCOM.1ITT1E.TO INVESTIGATE -THE ADMINISTRATION OF THE INTERNAL SECURITY ACT AND OTHER INTERNAL SECURITY LAWS, OF TUB COMMITTEE ON-THE JUDICIARY UNITED STATES SENATE NINETY-FIRST CONGRESS SECOND SESSION PART 3 MARCH 25, 1970 Printed for the use of the Committee on the Judiciary U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE 45-159 WASHINGTON • 1971 For sale by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. Government Printing Office Washington, D.C. 20402. Price 60 cents S sA. /- COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY JAMES 0. EASTLAND, Mississippi, Chairman JOHN L. McCLELLAN, Arkansas ROMAN L. HRUSKA, Nebraska SAM J. ERVIN, JR., North Calrolina HIRAM L. FONG, Hawaii THOMAS J." DODD, Connecticut HUGH SCOTT, Pennsylvania PHILIP A. HART, Michigan STROM THURMOND, South Carolina EDWARD M. KENNEDY, Massachusetts MARLOW W. COOK, Kentucky BIRCH BAYH, Indiana CHARLES McC. MATHIAS, Jrt., Maryland QUENTIN N. BURDICK, North Dakota ROBERT P. GRIFFIN, Michigan JOSEPH D. TYDINGS, Maryland - ROBERT C. BYRD, West Virginia SUBCOMMITTEE To INVESTIGATE THE ADMINISTRATION OF THE INTERNAL SECURITY ACT AND OTHER INTERNAL SECURITY LAWS JAMES 0. EASTLAND, Mississippi, Chairman THOMAS J. DODD, Connecticut, Vice Chairman JOHN L. McCLELLAN, Arkansas HUGH SCOTT, Pennsylvania SAM J. ERVIN, JR., North Carolina STROM THURMOND, South Carolina BIRCH BAYH, Indiana MARLOW W. COOK, Kentucky ROBERT C. BYRD, West Virginia ROBERT P. GRIFFIN, Michigan J. G. SOURWINE, Chief Counsel JOHN R. NORPEL, Directorof Research ALFONso L. TARABOCHIA, Chief Investigator RESOLUTION Resolved, by the Internal Security Subcommittee of the Senate Committee on the Judiciary, that the attached Resolution relating to the citation of Robert F. Williams for contempt of the Senate be reported favorably to the Committee on the Judiciary; together with the attached draft report thereon. Approved October 2,1971. (NoTE.-The resolution and draft report referred to above are printed separately. On page 3, the draft report states: "The Report of Proceedings, or Transcript, covering Williams' appearance before the subcommittee on February 16, 1970, and March 24 and 25, 1970, sepa- rately printed, is transmitted herewith and is expressly made a part hereof by reference.") TESTIMONY OF ROBERT F. WILLIAMS WEDNESDAY, MARCH 25, 1970 U.S. SENATE, SnBcoMmrIr1EP To INVESTIGATE THE ADMINISTRATIONSN OF THE INTERNAL SECURITY ACT AND OTHER INTERNA t SECURrITY" LAWS OF THE COMMIT'')EE ON THE JUDICIARY, Washington, D.O. The subcommittee staff conference met, following a recess from the previous day, at 2:15 p.m., in room S-146, U.S. Capitol. Present: J. G. Sourwine, chief counsel; John R. Norpel, Jr., re- search director; and Alfonso L. Tarabochia, chief investigator. STATEMENT T OF ROBERT F. WILLIAMS, ACCOMPANIED BY ROGER CRAIG, COUNSEL, IN STAFF CONFERENCE INTERVIEW Mr. SouwiNE. In October 1967 you had some contacts with a Brenly Benn. I do not know whether that is his true name or code name. Can you tell us? Mr. WILLIAMS. I do not know. I suppose it is his true name. Mr. SOURWINF,. Who is Mr. Benn? Mr. WILLIAMS. This time the man came from Ghana. He wanted to see me. And he said he wanted to read my publications. Mr. SouRwiNy. Personal business? Mr. WILLIAMS. No, political. Mr. SouRwiNE. On February 2, 1968 you were visited by one Asa. Who was he, do you know? Mr. WILLIAMS. That was a woman, an African woman, I think. Mr. SOuRWINE. A-s-a? Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes. That was an African woman. It was just a personal visit to my wife. Mr. SOURWINE. Do you know Shirley Graham DuBois? Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes. Mr. SouRwmiE. Is she the wife of the late Dr. DuBois after whom tihe DuBois Clubs were founded? Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, she is. Mr. SOURwINE. Your diary entry for February 4 was that Shirley Graham DuBois had come by talking about the need of white allies. And you have given your code sign which you agreed at the last session meant baloney: BS; can you recall any of this discussion? Was it just general, philosophical, or was there something specifi* about particular assistance, or somebody offering particular assistance? (177) 178 Mr. WILLrAmS. No, it was only in general, and discussing the problems of black people. Because she is actually an African, she ,has got African citizenship. Mr. SouRwINwE. You expressed yourself that the international -movement is not going to help your people. By international move- :ment did you have any particular international movement in mind, .orjust the whole world. Mr. WILLIAMS. The whole international movement as far as po- .Flitical groups in the world. - Mr. SOuIWINE. You meant realy, theji, +hat fhe black people in this country are going to have to fight their own battles, they are niot going to get any help from Outside the United States? Mr. WILLIANfS. That is right. 'Mr. SoUmiWiNE. Oft the'record.' (Discussion off the record.) 14r Q'iuwImF. Opunsel is quite willing to stipulate that the quote attributed1 to Mr. Williams, "convinced that international movement is not going to help our people," is from his diary under the date o' February 4,1968. Mr. C11AIG. Thank yov, counsel. Mr. SouRwINE. We have almost concluded discussing the diary. 1 am sorry it was necessary to take those matters up. Your diary entry of September 5,1968 contained an item "Writes statement on New Africa as requested by William Worthy for Esquire Magazine." Who is William Worthy, sir? . Mr. WILLIAius. He is a journalist working for the Baltimore Afro-American. Mr. SOuRWImNE. He does not work for Esquire? Mr. WILLIAmS. He is also a free lance writer, so I suppose he also works for Esquire too. Mr. SounwiNE. This says you wrote a statement. He wasn't writ- ing it, you wrote it, is that right? Mr. WILLIAMS. They wanted it for the magazine. It wasn't actually for him, it was for the magazine, as to what my position was on the Republic of New Africa. Mr;, SoUtwIN..It was your statement, it wasn't Worthy's? Mr. WILLIAMS. It was my statement, but it was never used. Mr. SOuRWxNE. It was not. Ca iyou tell us how William Worthy's request for that statement reached youI Mr. WILLIAMS. It reached me by rail. .SoxmwiNE. The pame day you made an entry "Reached my qal itnm6 d~leted] visit for long talk and member of A. Liberation on PAC." Can you tell us what all that meant? Mr. WILLIAMS. Those are Africans Pan-African Congress. Mr. SouRwi-E. [Name deleted] is South African? Mr. WmLus. 'Yes. But also I wouldn't like to go into the names of those people, because that means death to them in South Africa. Mr. SoURWINE. Is that so? Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes. Mr. SotuwiNE. Counsel will ask the reporter to place a note at the beginning of this question, that the committee should consider 179 deleting the mention of the man, because of the Witness' statement that he is a sought-after man and that disclosure of his name in this conhectkn Would cause him to be' ift personal danger. (Subsequently the name was ordered deleted from the printed decord.) Mr. CnI0. Thank you, counsel. Mr. SOUawiNE. Off the record. (DiscuSsion 6ff the record.) Mr. SouwiNE. Can you tell us what is meant by A. Liberation? Mr. WILLIAMs. A. Liberation? 'Mr. SOURWINE. Yes. Mr. WILLIAMS. It is just A. Liberation? Mr. SouRwiNE. Yes. Mr. WILLIAMS. That means African Liberation. Mr. SouRwiN.. That African Liberation is the African Liberation committee of the Pan-Asian Congress, then? Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes. They all deal with African liberation, and they all have different organizations. Mr. SourtwiN. Had this man come to Tanzania to see you? Mr. WILLIAMS. He was already there, and he came by. Mr. SoumwiNig. Your diary entry of September 15, 1968 contains this item: "Writes to Pogo: Monroe Sharp's house. Small gathering there. Sharp family, students, Gabriel, McKinley, Africans and Howard. Returns about 9 p.m. and visits Bill Sutherland. Discuss my situation here." Was all this a personal matter? Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, personal in Africa. Mr. SOuvRWINE. You arrived in Canton, China, from Tanzania after your voyage on October 6, 1968. According to your diary you had dinner that evening with the vice commander and leader of C.R, Can you tell us what the C.R. means? Mr. WILIAMS. Well, that means the Revolutionary Committee of the groups. Mr. SotnwINE. This vice commander, then, was a local official? Mr. WILLIAMs. Yes. Mr. SoiuwiNE. The diary entry for the next day, which is Octo- ber 7, 1968, referred to your approaching departure from Canton for Peking, and contained items: "P/C PPLA leaders see us off." Can you translate that for us? Does P/C mean Peace Committee? Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes. Mr. SOURWINE. And P/C PPLA would mean what? Mr. WILLIAMS. The People's Liberation Army. Mr. SoutnwIxE. I am sorry. I should have realized that. Your diary entry of December 16, 1968 had this item: "Letter from Kunstler promising to look into my case and to give report." Who was Kunstler? " Mr. WILLIAMS. He was a lawyer who wrote to me who handled the Monroe case. Mr. SOURWINE. I have no more questions about him if he was your lawyer. You say he was your lawyer? Mr. WILLIAMS. No, he was one of the people who were indicted along with me in Monroe. And he was their lawyer. So I was asking him to look into the indictment against me in North Carolina. Mr. SouRwi.E. Did he become your lawyer? 180 Mr. WILLIAMS. No. Mr. SouwiNE. Did he do any legal work for you? Mr. WILLIAMS. No. He had offered to help me, but I came in to Detroit instead of New York.