63 Appropriation (Railways) [RAJYA S\BHA] Bills, 1975 64 "That the Bill to provide for the au- 2. The Speaker has certified that this thorisation ot appropriation of moneys out BUI is a Money Bill." of the Consolidated Fund of India to meet the amounts spent on certain services for II the purposes of Railways during the '•In accordance with the provisions of financial year ended on the 31st day ot Rule 96 of the Rules of Procedure and March, 1973, in excess of the amounts Conduct of Business in Lok Sabha. I am granted for those services and for that year, directed to enclose herewith the Gujarat as passed by the Lok Sabha. be taken into Appropriation (Vote on Ac-countl Bill. consideration." 1975. as passed by Lok Sabha at its The questions were proposed. sitting held on the 21st March, 1975. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Now you 2. The Speaker has certified that this can speak on all the three. Bill is a Money Bill." Sir. I lay a copy of each of the Bills on SHRI MOHD. SHAFI QURESHI: Sir, I the Table. would like to reply to the points that would be raised.

I. THE APPROPRIATION SHRI L. MXHAPATRO (Orissa): Mr. Deputy (RAIL- WAYS) BILL, 1975. Chairman. Sir. the discussions that preceded the introduction of the Appropriation Bill II. THE APPROPRIATION indisputably expressed almost unanimity on (RAIL- WAYS) NO. 2 BILL, 1975. some important aspects of railway finance and III. THE APPROPRIATION administration. It has been made out to the hilt (RAIL- WAYS) NO. 3 BILL, 1975. that the situation is paradoxical. Investments increase. I returns decrease. Membership of MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : There are and expenditure on the Railway Board swells three Appropriation (Railways) Bills, 1975. and management deteriorates. Coal production 1 t h i n k we will take up all of them boosts, but transportation for the railways together. themselves does not catch up. The railways are continuing to pile up losses and the sluggish THE MINISTER OF STATE IN THE economic activity has not been conducive to MINISTRY OF RAILWAYS (SHRI railway profitability. What is ing, however, is MOHD. SHAFI QURESHI): Sir. I beg to that the railway management's response to such move . a state of affairs has been extraordinarily reckless and it has dealt with its problems in "That the Bill to authorise payment the manner of a wooden-headed bureaucrat, and appropriation of certain sums from stuck up in established grooves, instead ot as and out of the Consolidated Fund of the industrial management ot the largest India for the services of the financial undertaking in the country on which huge year 1975-76 for the purposes of Rail- investments drawn from the public savings are ways, as passed by the Lok Sabha be sunk. Despite investments having risen from taken into consideration." Rs. 855 crores in 1950-51 to Rs. 4791 crores in "That the Bill to authorise payment 1972-73. despite the fact that diesel engines and appropriation of certain furthei sums with double the capacity of steam engines were from and out of the Consolidated Fund added, hundreds of electric engines were added, of India for the services of the financial sophisticated equipment purchased, the block year 1974-75 for the purposes of working system modernised, longer Railways, as passed by the Lok Sabha, be taken into consideration." 65 Appropriation {Railways) [22 MAR. 1975] Rills. 1975 66 loop lines constructed, crossing facilities im- the worst of profits, the worst of income, in proved, longer, heavier ;tnd faster trains put spite of this heavy investment, an investment on the rails, the average speed of goods trains which in the course of the year would have has not increased even by it kilometre per been not less than Rs. 400 crores and the total hour and the distance travelled by a wagon investment so far is Rs. 5000 crores—is has increased only by 5 kms per day, which is something which is too sad. Judging from the only a snail's speed. The railways seem to be standard of performance shown by the carrying relatively and absolutely less and Railways, the Railway Board should be less of traffic, both passenger and goods. squarely made responsible for the serious crisis which the railway finances and the Though the Railway Minister is optimistic Railway administration face today. The about a surplus Budget, experience of earlier frequent change of Ministers is taken years makes us to take it with a pinch of salt. advantage of by the Board. His stout defence of the Railway Board has startled us. Because ol the mismanagement of While some friends would choose to say the Railway Board, in spi'c of their profession that the Railway Board has more powers than to the effect that the Government is out to it can effectively exercise, I would say that it clear regional imbalances. you see the has turned out to be the fountain-head of State of inefficiency, corruption and mismanagement. and you sec the other States. Orissa On the basis of bitter and sad experiences has a large tribal population and (here is not over the years, Members in both Houses have even a kilometre of new rail laid and whatever been crying hoarse for the Railway Board to rail line has been laid, it is not a;\ inp the go. And if the Railways are to get out of the facility of passenger traffic. One such fine is the financial quagmire, it is necessary for this DBK-Dandakaranya-Baila-dila-Kiriburu line. premier transport system of the country to be That line is there for a pretty long time, but drastically reorganised so that the investments only goods traffic is being transported. No made begin to give returns. And despite the person in that line has been given the high hopes of making up the deficit only by advantage of travelling by rail. Now, there are increasing the freight rate on foodgrains many people who work in the deep forests which will ultimately tell upon the consumer, and high mountains. They have to go round we are not sure that we would not be landed in about the mountains and they face many wild a deficit budget because of the ever- animals. Even for those persons who work on continuing fall in the passenger and goods the railways there is no facility. At traffic. i (aching one or two compartments to the train The cause of the malady lies in the fact of would have solved their problem. Even that is too much of idling time of the engines, the not being done. This is the attitude of the wagons and the officers high up. Often, they Railway Board which thinks in terms of try to throw the blame on the workers and increasing its number and not railway lines in accuse them ot contributing to this state of places where there are good mines. There are affairs as is usual with any exploiter. The people who have not had the advantage of locomen put up a determined fight and an travelling by train, though 27 years have agreement was signed—that was long back— passed after independence. I could cite many about their hours of work and many other more instances as I speak about the Railway thmgs. What has happened to it ? Now, Therefore, such a Railway Board people who arc eng; g-d as casual labour by defended by the Railway Minister, the contractors are a distressed lot. For these and for him to say that it is best transport people, a law was passed by Parliament, mechanism of the land—best according to (here was a ' lot of discussion. And pel-sons him because it has been able to yet him who have been working under such 7 RSS/75—3 67 Appropriation (Railways) [RAJYA SABHA] Bills, 1975 68 [Shri L. Mahapatro] in service they are now being sought to be distressing conditions and for more than five thrown out of service on flimsy charges years at a stretch, they have not been able to engineered on the basis of some event that get the benefit of that law. happened long back. Therefore, let not the humanitarian attitude that the Railway Somehow I find that the Railway Board has Minister has shown in this matter be given a of late chosen to have things done no longer go-by by the officers down below and let departmental^ but through the contractors them not make their instructions and whether it is catering or any other thing, directions inoperative. where you will find the greatest scope for corruption. This has not only prevented and In ihe matter of industrial relations with the clogged the possibility of employing some workers the management is seen very often people by taking up these services wasting heavily in litigations making the poor departmentally, but it has also opened up new worker unnecessarily run from court to court. vistas of corruption. And this is the Railway This attitude detract* from the establishment Board that the Railway Minister wants to of healthy industrial relations which alone can defend. put the decaying railway finances and administration on correct rails. Sir, you know about the historic railway strike and also about the historic repression The Board having members in foreign wherein a large number of people, workers, countries is not only ridiculous but a wastage. were taken out of service because of the Its constitution that way was in the best whims of the officers at different levels. And interest of the imperialist rulers. The Board they have created anguish in them. Mr. and the railway management as a whole have Qureshi, his senior, the late Mr. L. N. Mishra, been, to my mind, anti-people, pro-trader and and even the present Railway Minister, all pro-monopoly... have given us assurances that they will be reinstated as early as possible. 1 met Mr. DR. RAMKRIPAL SINHA (Bihar): What Qureshi many times as also many other do you mean by "pro-monopoly"?- Members and all our words have fallen on deaf ears. That is the officers he has got, that MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : You know is the Railway Board he has got and, therefore, what he means. when he says that he will be having these people back in service I ponder for a moment SHRI L. MAHAPATRO: While the railways to find out whether he has really gained that are not able to transport their own requirement control over these officers who have been able on the plea of shortage of wagons they are to flout his orders all these days. So I want able to comfort the traders and monopolists from him an attitude towards these officers by allowing them to have easy allotment of whereby he should be sure that his prestige is wagons and to have their own uncleared not let low. 1 know these oflicers who, goods in go-downs and wagons for very long because of their whims, at the most opportune periods with a view to creating artificial moment during the strike period sacked some scarcity and speculate in those particular of these workers who, according to them, were commodities. That is what I was saying. Simi- undesirables. And they are maintaining the larly, the unusual high rate of fare and freight same tone. I know many cases where people has made it possible for many a private were not involved in any violence or any transport owner to put fleets of and trucks on particular criminal act and yet they have been the road. (Time bell rings). 1 will finish in a thrown out of service. Now under the pressure minute. of the hon'bje Minister if some of them were Some friends want to sort out, what is taken back called, competition of the road and rail 69 Appropriation (Railways) [22 MAR. 1975] Bills, 1975 70 transport by a co-ordinated understanding of MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Already things. To my mind, this is the creation of the your time is over. Railway Board because as I told you earlier, the officers are in collusion with the SHRI L. MAHAPATRO: Only one or two contractors for supplies and execution of lines I want to say because these people have works and in the matter of catering. Similarly, not been looking to the real areas where the they do not want the passenger and goods railways could be improved. The Cuttack— traffic to go up on the railways. They want Paradip route is there and I have already this traffic to go away to the road. As a result mentioned about the DBK railways. Now, you find many a person coming forward with regarding the Banaspani -lakpura line, it is their trucks and buses. The other thing is the said that the State should pay fifty per cent of high incidence of looting and dacoity that the amount. This is something fantastic. takes place on the Railways. There was an Gopalpur is fast developing. It is a minor port incident on the 14th March. There was a rail- and soon it will become a very big port and it way security force man ; he neither prevented will become an industrial area because of the it nor did he apprehend the culprit. Therefore, Rare Earths putting up a plant there. Then you there is increasing loss by way of have the big tribal district of Phulbani which compensation. has not an inch of railway line. There were applications alter applications to the Railway DR. RAMKRIPAL SINHA: One of his Ministry, to the Centre, from the State party members, a mermber of Parliament, in Government lor having a survey. The survey Bihar was involved in smuggling of goods... was done long back, yet nothing is being done as far as the district of Phulbani is concerned. SHRI L. MAHAPATRO: I would request I think you may not have seen any district you not to talk about it. That apart, it is now headquarters which is touched by a Mail train sub jiulice and any opinion that you may but where the Mail does not slop. Such a express may adversely affect the district headquarters is the headquarters of investigation. I would request you not to say Ganjam from where I come. The Mail train anything about it. We are not here to talk on used to stop at Chhatrapur till recently. After matters which are .tub judice. That is the rule, they put a diesel engine to the Mail, they said I understand and I think you will respect that "We will not be able to stop it there because it rule. will delay the running of the Mail". That is the reason they have put forward. It is something very sad that the headquarters of number one Though undoubtedly the Railways were not district of the State is given this treatment. able to have proper utilisation of their This is how things are done. The last thing is wagons, the number of wagons has to be about the wastage by the Railway Board. For increased and the wagon industry has to be instance, you know Kerala has a surplus in boosted. 1 am told that there is a constraint electricity and it is prepared to give it at a con- put by the Planning Commission. cessional rate to the Railways. The Railways bring coal all the way from the North to the MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Please wind South to be used in the steam engines, but up. they are not prepared to use "the electricity offered by Kerala at a concessional rate. This is wastage. The Railway Minister will come SHRI L. MAHAPATRO : ... and I want up year after year and say "this is a year of that constraint to be lifted. Here are certain mismanagement, this is a year of difficulty, things which I want to mention in particular this is a as far as my State is concerned. 71 Appropriation {Railways) [RAJYA S ABHA] Bills, 1915 72

[Shri L. Mahapatro] year of despair". Sir. let us hope that these encouraging, Therefore, when we put money in his hands, financial results will continue to be en- we expect him to say that the causes for all couraging till the end of the year although the Railway financial authorities have not taken the deficiencies of Railway administration are into consideration that impact of the additional wiped out and something neat and new is Dearness Allowance which may have to be built up. paid to the railway employees during the year and. if this is done. I am sure that the SHRI ;KHURSHED ALAM KHAN surplus that this Budget has attempted to bring (Delhi): Mr. Deputy Chairman, Sir, our about will be upset and the whole working railway system is the largest in Asia and the will be imbalanced and we will end up with a fourth biggest perhaps in the whole world deficit budget at the end of the year. However. employing about 17 lakhs of people. It was Sir. 1 am not very much despondent about this rather refreshing to note that for the first time matter because the Railways have been rather in about seven years' period a balanced conservative in making their estimates of Budget has been presented. Sir, this is very earning from freight and passenger traffic and encouraging especially when this has been if our hopes of getting additional revenue done without increasing the passenger fares. materialise, I hope it would be possible to pro- However, it is a matter of some concern that vide adequate cushion for the payment of the about 70 per cent of the revenues of the increased Dearness Allowance which may be Railways is spent on establishment given to the railway employees in due expenditure alone and this aspect has to be course. looked into very carefully. Sir, for improving the image and the working results of the Railways, they wilt Sir, it has been stated by the Railway have to work very hard. It is too early to Minister that the Railway Administration is expect that tbe Budget will not have any now seeing the end of the tunnel. J hope that inflationary impact at all. The gap between their seeing the end of the tunnel is not any the revenue and the expenditure foi the year illusion. They have also said that they are 1974-75 is of the order of Rs. 144 crores and working on all the cylinders. But, apparently, this is a very big gap and I hope that this sort talking in technical terms, it appears that the of performance will not be repeated during cylinders still lack the compression : this year. otherwise, the performance should have been much better. As things stand today, and if past per- formance is any indication, the prospect of any striking improvement in the efficiency Sir. there is another important thing to and productivity of the Railways is still very which 1 would like to invite the attention of doubtful. Let us hope that this doubt will not the hon'ble Railway Minister and that is the materialise. For instance, in the year 1965-66, Railway Board. It is a very familiar and the Railways carried 203 million tonnes of popular topic of criticism in both the Houses goods traffic. But, in the year 1975-76, it is of Parliament. Well, Sir, it is high time that estimated that only about 192 million tonnes the Minister and the Government had a of freight traffic will be carried. As against second look at it and took a view on whether this decline in the amount of traffic carried, the the Railway Board has served its utility or employees increased from about 12 lakhs to still it is required to serve the railways and the 17 lakhs during this period with the wage bill country. Sir. this utility has to be established rising from Rs. 310 crores to Rs. 520 crores, and only then the Railway Board is to be besides enormous investments in allowed to continue. Otherwise, we will have modernising; the equipment, acquiring new to agree that it is only a white elephant. assets, etc. 73 Appropriation (Railways) [22 MAR. 1975] Bills, 1975 74 Then, Sir, the other phenomenon which I glad that a good beginning has been made and fail to understand is the employment op- it has been decided to condone break in portunities for the minorities in the Railways. service of employees. I hope this will be a The minorities used to form a very good beginning and will promote cordial appreciable percentage of the total employ- relationship between the management and the ment in the Railways. But, today, Sir, I think workers. But, Sir. I would also like to remind the railway authorities will have to try rather the hon. Minister that those workers should hard to work out a percentage for them. No not be forgotten who stood by you during the doubt, Sir, our Minister of State for Railways, period when you were in trouble. Shri Shaft" Qureshi, carries a lot of weight in the Railway Administration. But this weight is Sir, another important factor and which is not at all balanced by a decrease in the very known and common factor with the employment opportunities for the minority Railway Administration is the leakage of communities. revenue in the passenger traffic. The passenger revenue forms 30 per cent of the 1 hope Mr. Shaft Qureshi and his total earnings of the Railways. But I am sorry administration will do justice in this regard. to say that the Railways hiive failed in their efforts. They are not making real attempts and Sir, another important factor which I would efforts to stop leakage of revenues in the like to mention is that efficient maintenance is passenger traffic. This has to be done early. the backbone of any transport system. It They can save very considerably if special appears, however, that railway workshops have efforts are made. completely stopped doing any scheduled maintenance work for the last two years and Sir, similarly, take fuel, which is a very this has resulted in deplorable condition of expensive item of operation. This needs coaches and wagons. In many cases even the reconsideration. I raised this point last year undercarriage maintenance is sub-standard also in my speech. And I got a letter from the and, therefore, very often results in derail- then Deputy Minister of Railways, saying that ments. Rolling stock and coaches condition is a scale for consumption of fuel has been laid really horrible. It is not an unusual thing to down. Well, it has not added to my knowledge or it has not made me any wiser. find a whole train running even without Everybody who owns a diesel engine, who light during night time as if there was curfew owns a locomotive or who owns such imposed all over the country. machines knows what is the scale but what is Sir, another factor which needs special the achievement actually. If variation is only 5 attention is thefts and pilferage in the per cent or 7 per cent this side or that side, it Railways. It is surprising that the Railway is understandable. But if the fluctuation is administration employ over sixty thousand between 30—35 per cent, I am sorry to say railway protection force and, if I am not there is something wrong, h i t h e r the fuel is incorrect, spend about 12 crores of rupees being pilferred or the maintenance of the annually on them. But even then the payment locomotives is not up to the standard and, of compensation for theft and damage to therefore, they are consuming more fuel. consignors and consignees works out to more Sir, now I must say something about nearer than Rs. 12 crores every year. I suppose if the home. 1 belong to U.P. Bui. fortunately, I en-lire Railway Protection Force is disbanded, represent Delhi. We have been piessing the the Railways will be able to at least utilize Minister to extend the Vaishali Express from this saving on their expenditure side. Kasganj up to Agra Fort, because there is Industrial relations for some time were not only one express train cordial in the Railways. But we are 75 Appropriation (Railways) [RAJYA SABHA] Bills, 1975 76

[Shri Khurshed Alam Khan) between Agra to carry your belongings with you. A number Fort and Kasganj, and that is only during the of dacoities, thefts, etc. have taken place of night time. Yet it has not been conceded. late and this is a matter which has become most alarming. Something has to be done We would urge upon the Minister to about it. As I have already stated, the railways consider this request; particularly in view of have a protection force of 60,000. But nothing the fact that both Agra and Mathura are very is done by them. This all started last year with important places and they must be served by a train coming from Ajmer and it has such an Express train. continued since then.

Sir. another matter to which I would like to Sir, before I sit down, I would like to ask draw the attention of the Railway Minister is how long and to what extent our Railway the mass transit system of the metropolitan Administration will continue to ask the people cities of Delhi, Bombay, Calcutta and Madras. to travel on the roof tops of the trains at the I had the opportunity of working on the Study time of Urs, Ganga Snan and all other Team which prepared comprehensive plans festivals. It is a pity and we have ,to hang our for the metropolitan rapid transit system for head in shame. The tourists take pictures of these cities. I am glad to know that a begin- such passengers travelling like monkeys on ning has been made in Calcutta. But the roof tops of the trains and even then nothing is progress is very slow. Unfortunately, nothing done. Hundreds of trains were cancelled has so far been done for Delhi except certain during last one year. Why can't some trains soil tests and experiments. How long are we be cancelled and a few trains added for a week going to carry out these experiments ? Unless or ten days on such occasions? Unless it is quick decisions are taken and quick done, people will continue to travel on foot implementation is done. the cost is going to boards and on roof tops. multiply and it will become prohibitive. Probably, we will have to give up this project (Time bell rings-.) on the plea of cost being prohibitive. It is a known fact that in any metropolitan city, it is Before taking my seat, I would just ask my not at all possible or it is rather impossible to hon. friend, Mr. Qureshi one question. I do manage or to provide adequate transport not know whether he has read that famous facilities for the commuters only by road Urdu book by Shaukat Thanvi entitled transport as is the case in Delhi. "Swadeshi Rail". If he has not read it, I will Unfortunately, there are hardly few rail-wax procure a copy of lhat book and present it to services in Delhi which are run on suburban him. If he finds it educative and interesting, he lines. In spite of the fact that a definite should circulate it among the Members of the promise was made in answer to a starred Railway Board for their education. question some time back that the number of trains will be increased, nothing has so far been done. SHRI LOKANATH MISRA (Orissa) : Sir. I would join my emphatic voice with those [Time bell rings.) who have demanded for the reinstatement of those who were diseharged after the last Sir. another very important factor towards general strike in the Railways. The sooner it which I would like to draw the attention of the is done, the better. Railway Minister is the safety of passengers and their belongings. If you travel in a train Sir, the Railways as a whole do not during night or day. you do not know whether have a reputation for efficient administration. you will \e;ich safely and whether you will be Unfortunately. I have to say so be-j cause for able the last 10 or 11 years or may 77 Appropriation (Railways) [22 MAR. 1975] Bills, 1975 78

be 12 years, this House has been com- DR. VIDYA PRAKASH DUTT (Nomi- plaining during the discussion on the nated): Railway timings are like weathet Railway Budget and the Appropriation Bid reports. We have to ignore them. of the Railways about mismanagement. We hoped that things would be better alter we spoke SHRI LOKANATH MISRA : Sir, so far as against them, after we indicated to the hon. cleanliness is concerned, I can assure you that Minister certain lacunae and shortcomings in the dirtiest thing that you could ever have is in the administration of the Railways. But the Railways whether it is in the compartment things did not improve. Sir, it seems that the or in the food. Of course, at the same time, I Railway Ministers come and go but it is the can tell you, Sir, that the Rajdhani Express Railway Board thai goes for ever. And it is the serves very good food. Railway Board that takes the final decision in the matter. People who come and go are SHRI IAGD1SH PRASAD MATHUR superfluous and they over-flow. This is the (Rajasthan): Only to the first-class passen- feeling among all the Members of gers. Parliament. They are his colleagues and he must know what they feel about him and his SHRI LOKANATH MISRA : Only to I the Ministry. So, if he intends to mean first-class passengers and to those who : travel business, he must do something so that the in the chair cars.' But the same j Railways Members gel this impression that they are not can serve good food to the I second-class superfluous and that they are the people who passengers. If the same Railways are capable really count in the Ministry and not the Railway of serving better food to the highest class Board. passengers, what is wrong in serving the very food to the lower class passengers ? Why is it not being served unless it is sheer negligence ? Sir, so far as the timing of the trains is Sir, I find the Railway Minister very concerned, there is a great difficulty reasonable at times. I say 'at times' because, about it. Even though the passengers on some occasions I have not seen him keep on making complaints about the reasonable. wrong timings of the trains, they are not heeded to. Even I have brought to the 3 P.M. notice of the Railway Minister on some occasions about the Utkal Express which I will request him not to send his tour takes 54 hours from here to Bhubaneswar programme in advance, not to allow anybody to whereas if we travel from Delhi to Bhuba- know about it and travel incognito in trains in neswar via Howra, it takes 36 to 38 second class and first class I compartments, hours. Even if I have to change the train and without reservation, and I then find out as to wait at Howrah on the platform for three or what is happening, what I type of food is being four hours, I can make it in 36 to 38 hours given. Sir, when the Railway Minister travels, from Delhi to Bhubaneswar. If I take the direct he may be served probably the normal feod. not train, which is called the Utkal Express, it to speak of the normal food, but the food may takes me 52 to 54 hours. This is all that Orissa even be imported from elsewhere in order to has got. We, the Members of Parliament show him that good food is being served even from Orissa demanded thai the Minister normally. But, it is not a fact. He has been a should do something in the matter. They have private Member for some time, he has been a given us a train. Ultimately, it would non-Minister and a non-Member for some time, render us to a situation where we have he must have had his experience of the to say, "Kindly take back the train", because, Railways then. Now. of course, for nobody would travel by it unless they are wayside passengers. 79 Appropriation (.Railway) [RAJYA S ABHA] Bills, 1975 80

[Shri Lokanath Misra] the last five, six or | part of India. Mr. Choudhury, I hope, you will seven years, he would not have had the also take this up when you speak. Sir, the occasion to go in the Railways or travel by the whole of eastern India is being and has been Railways and therefore he would not be discriminated against. I would now give you knowing what the real state of affairs in the some figures about the eastern India. Railways is. Therefore, 1 would request him to kindly travel incognito sometimes so that SHR T. V. ANANDAN (Tamil Nadu): ~] each man in the Railways has a feeling that his is the case with the southern India also. the Minister might peep in any time, might SHRI LOKANATH MISRA : You would come in any time and there may be danger o also lend your support to what I say. their services if they misbehave. AN HON. MEMBER : Northern India (hen, Sir, I am told that some of the also. engines, diesel engines, are lying idle. 1 do not know what the reasons are. Probably the SHRI LOKANATH MISRA : Not northern Minister would now be given a brief from the India. Northern India is the exploiter. 1 was official galiery saying that because we have going to say that the Railway Board, where switched on to dieseli-salion and because we the Railway Board is situated, is the place of are not getting diesel, they are lying idle but, exploitation. It is, LIS if we arc still having the the fact of the matter is that in Banaras where imperialist tradition of exploitation. Sir, take, we are manufacturing these diesel engines, for example, coal and steel; these are the even though we are manufacturing the things which arc produced in the eastern India. engines, nobody probably thought of manufacturing any spare parts. They never AN HON. MEMBER : And, jute also. thought that an engine could ever go wrong or a part of the engine could go wrong or that any SHRI LOKANATH MISRA : Yes, lute part of the engine might have a break down. dlso. But, now they realise, while it is too late, that they have also to manufacture some spare In the case of steel and coal how does it parts in order to keep the engines going. operate? Sir, Rs. 49 arc charged per tonne of Therefore. 1 would request the hon. Minister coal when it is sent from the pit heads to any to find out this aspect of the matter also place in the Punjab or in Maharashtra. And. because it is on account of non-availability of when the wagons come back to the eastern some of the spare parts that they are lying idle. parts of India with oilseeds or cotton, do you know how much do they charge? They charge Then, Sir, I would like to draw your Rs. 91 per tonne of oil and Rs. 161 per tonne attention to one of the gross mismanagements of cotton. So, when we send things, we send in the Railways. They have a system, called them at a cheaper rate, so much so that the the telescopic rates system, so far as the regional or locatio-nal advantage that we are Railway freight is concerned. What happens in supposed to have because we have the coal the case of this telescopic sysiem is that upto a base in the eastern region or steel factories distance of 500 miles from a particular point, near about, it turns into a locational disadvan- the rate of freight comes in one category, one tage. When we send things they get them at a slab, a particular charge, a particular rate; and cheaper price whereas we who are at the beyond that, whatever the- range, whatever pithead have to get them, the the distance, the charges are reduced very much, the charges are very less. T will now show how this affects the eastern 81 Appropriation (Railways) [22 MAR. 1975] Biffs, 1975 82 reverse is the process. When we get oil seeds, Sir, great injustice has been done to Orissa. cotton or any other consumer goods we have There are three railway headquarters situated to pay a much higher price. What is this in Calcutta including the South-Eastern equity? Is this the way you are going to bring Railway. And most of the South-Eastern in socialism? When it comes to steel, from Railway runs through Orissa. There have been Jamshedpur to Howrah we are supposed to many agitations in Orissa demanding that at pay Rs. 30 per wagon; that is what it should least the headquarters of the South-Eastern be. And to Bombay from Jamshedpur it Railway should be shifted to Bhubanes-war or should be Rs. 150. But, Sir, what is the Cuttack or any other place they like in Orissa. system? Do you know? They have a pooling But, Sir, nothing has seen done. Sir, at least system. They pool together the Freight charge the Railway Service Commission should be of Rs. 30 from Jamshedpur to Howrah and the immediately shifted to some place in Orissa. freight charge of Rs. 150 from .famshedpur to (Time bell rings.) 1 will take only two or three Bombay and ultimately the person who takes minutes more. Sir. These are some of the a wagon from Jamshedpur to Howarh has to "local" grievances. pay Rs. 90 because when 30 is added to 150 it becomes 180 and when 180 is divided by two There is no passenger booking on the DBK it becomes 90. So, a person who takes a Railway. Sir, because 600 million tonnes of wagon to Bombay has to pay Rs. 90 and iron ore had to be exported from Bailadilla, a another person who takes a wagon to Howrah railway line from Baila-dilla to also has to pay Rs. 90. This is how we get Visakhapatnam was laid. But because the equity! Therefore. Sir, no more exploitation gradient is so high, even while coming back can be tolerated by the people of the eastern to Bailadilla with the empty wagons, the train region. I hope all of them would now combine has to be hauled by six diesel engines and, together and try to protect themselves and therefore, there is no passenger booking either their interests from being exploited. way. There was, at one time, a techno-econo- mic survey to have an alternate route of Amaguda-Kesinga or Amaguda-Lan-jgarh Sir, a particular fact about malad- Road to provide movement of goods and ministration has come to my notice. I wish I passenger service also. This is a very rich were wrong and T hope the Railway Minister forest area with plenty of mineral deposits. T would let me know about it. I am told that the am told that the largest bauxite mine in the Member (Transport) has taken advantage of country has now been found in that area. It is the change in the Ministry and given a the second largest in the world. Therefore, this renewal of licence to [he Wheeler and alternate line should be given to this area. Sir. Company, the biggest book-stall owners on in this context I would like to say that they the railways. The late Mr. L. N. Mishra had have added insult to injury so far as opening given a categorical assurance in this House of new railway lines in Orissa is concerned. that unemployed graduates would be given The Banspani-Jakhapur line has been allotted first preference for opening book-stalls on the just a lakh of rupees! Anybody would just railways and that no monopolist would be laugh at it! given this advantage. How is it that the Member (Transport) has been able to take a for a project worth Rs. 14 crores they have particular action against the assurance given allotted a lakh of rupees. Is it because you can on the floor of the House to Members of afford to ignore Orissa, because Orissa does Parliament by the late Railway Minister ? not agitate against these things that you have been able to 83 Appropriation (Railways) [RAJYA SABHA] Bills, 1975 84 . [Shri Lokanalh Misra] B. N. Kaul had the audacity to flout one of the neglect Orissa ? Sir, the Madras-Tata Express ex-Cabinet Minister's order and which was an which terminates now at Tatanagar should be assurance given on the floor of the House. extended up to Howrah because it is hardly SHRI B. RACHAIAH (Karnataka) : Mr. three hours' journey. Not only that, the Deputy Chairman, Sir, the Railways has been passengers bound for Howrah are in great a very big undertaking in the artery of our difficulty because the time-gap is only five country. This is managed by nearly 17 lakh minutes between the arrival of the other train people. Except bringing food grains and pulses and the departure of the Tata Express. under the purview of standard freight, it is Therefore, this tram should be extended up to good that the Minister for Railways has not Calcutta. increased the freight charges and passenger fares fot the coming year. Tt is really a The Utkal Express should be run daily. The welcome measure and I must congratulate him running hours should be curtailed and it for giving a year of rest, for stabilising the should run via. Kharagpur on one day. and via rates which have been revised last year. Sir. Vizianagram on the oilier day That is, its for the efficient management of any route should be changed on alternate days. I institution, of any public undertaking, the am told Vizianagram would be nearer. That foremost thing is the security of service and route would be shorter than the route via the contentment of the working men. 1 am Kharagpur but all the same I would like to say sure most of the Members would also share that it should be run alternately—one day via my view on this. Therefore, Sir. there should knaragpur and one day via Vizianagram. be a good relationship between the working railwaymen and the Government. To achieve One Express train should be there from that end I, on this occasion, request all the Nagpur to Vizianagram. Even though that line trade union leaders to unite themselves, to has been there for 40 years, never probably an make one union so that they may have good express train has run on that line. Sir, when contact and coordination with the Andhra capital was shifted to Hyderabad and Government. 1 hey should also see that their when Bhopnl was made capital of Madhya representatives who are known for honesty Pradesh, all arrangements were made by the and integrity, are associated with the Railway Railways for running express trains in order to Board so that the matters which crop up ate enable people to reach capitals of these two settled amicably. States in time. Sir, with the reorganisation of States Bhubaneswar became the capital of Orissa in the year 1948 but as yet nothing has Sir. this is a public undertaking which is been done to integrate western Orissa with mainly meant to serve the people and earn eastern Orissa through a direct train. revenues. When we want to serve the people, we should give them a satisfactory service. Then alone we will be able to attract more The last point that I would like to make is pasengers to travel in our trains, and: more that I am told that in spite of the high- people to transport their goods in our handedness shown by Mr. Kaul, the Transport railways. Member, he is being given an extension. Is it as a prize for flouting the late Minister's orders or flouting the Minister's assurance to So many Members in the lower ."louse and the House ? I would like to request the hon. here also have spoken about unP;m-ctuality of Railway Minister to throw some light on this trains and also cancellation of trains for want matter because not only I but most of the of coal; sometimes on account of natural other Members of the House are interested calamities also the trams have been about it. Mr. cancelled. Therefore, there 85 Appropriation (Railways) [22 MAR. 1975] Bills, 1975 86

tave been losses to the public travelling a the in the RPF personnel and they could be trains, and also goods during trans-icrtation shifted from Railways to Border Security have been spoiled. So, ' Sir, vhen we want to Force. The same man should not continue for give a satistactory ser-ice, punctuality and more than 3 years in the Railways. If that is also good relation-hip with the travelling done, Sir, I think we could expect some public by the rail-vaymen is necessary. I see, change in their attitude in protecting the Sir, during he past period there were several property of the Railways and protecting the reasons 'or the unrest of the working men. and goods that are transported by the Railways. I hose have dragged on, and it has put trie feel, Sir, that even alarm chain pulling on the ailways to great loss also. Still I ;:m told that Railways have gone up to nearly 2,80,000 in about 10,000 people have not t>een number and if the Railways traffic people are reinstated, particularly the lower class people. vigilant, they can reduce it. And out of these, there are 1,000 scheduled caste persons who have not been reinstated. I have also noticed cases of ticketless They may be temporary working men or travel in the Railways and the Ticket Col- casual labourers; yet they were working there. lectors Or the Guards do not take notice of So they should be given a chance once again it. Sometimes, persons who regularly to serve the Hail-ways. travel by a train on short distances, do not purchase tickets in spite of the fact that they Sir, the compensation on account ol loss of are able to get concessional tickets. Even property by theft and pilferage has gone up to seasonal tickets are not renewed and the nearly Rs. 13 cores. The income from travellers travel on the trains with the expired passengers and also goods | transport has gone seasonal tickets, and the Railway staff also down. It has gone down because of the strike. allow them. That being so, how can we Strikes have to be discouraged1. This year they expect any efficiency in the Railways and expect a little improvement in these things. any increase in its revenues'.' After all we Coal has become one of the bottlenecks for the are spending money out ot the public efficient running of the railways. For that also, exchequer. Then it is unlike other I think the Minister will try to see that there is a Departments. It 1MS autonomy; its better relationship bet: ween his Department management is in the hands of the Railway and the Coal and Mines Department and see Board. Like a prudent businessman, it that the required quantity of coal is allotted to should settle its differences with the the railwt workers so that the workers can give a satisfactory service to the public and the Sir, I was telling about the compensation Railways can also earn more. that the railways have to pay to the people for thefts arid for pilferages in the railways. Nearly 58,000 RPF people are working and Even in catering, I see the same old people about Rs. 12 crores are being spent on them. being continued whether they are able to Sir, I am told that sometimes these RPF people supply good and healthy food to the in connivance with the goondas have allowed passengers or not. If that is so, how can you these things to go on. One of the Ministers attract more passengers to travel by the who held this portfolio has made this Railways? They would prefer to go by some allegation in the Lower House. If that is (rue. other means. then I feel the safety and the security of the passengers and their goods is not in safe hands. Therefore, I suggest that there should People who travel in the first class arc be frequent changes mostly either Government servants or those serving in the autonomous bodies or in the industries . . .

SHRI N. H. KUMBHARE : Or MPs. 87 Appropriation {Railways) [RAJYA SABHA] Bills, 1975 88 SHRI B. RACHAIAH : MPs. also travel Minister saying that they are going to see that and, therefore, even if you increase the fare the land is acquired expeditiously. The in the higher classes, it is only the sleepers will be supplied by the State Government who, in turn, will have to pay. Government and the workmen will be made Therefore, it is good that the fare charges available to take up this conversion. Further have been maintained1 at the same level as from Mysore the Chamarajnagar the line has last yeat. Bui along with that, we have to see to be converted to BG and up to Erode or a that more comforts are provided to the new line has to be built. It has to be from second class passengers. Then only we will Chamarajnagar to Erode via Satyamangalam. be able to attract more and more passengers. It has not seen the light of the day even though As I suggested, the goods being transported the late Shri Gopalaswami Ayyangar had by the Railways have got to be protected. given the assurance in .the other House that These should not be allowed to be stolen by this line would be taken up. If these small bits ;;OC»HI

Regarding the claims of my own State, T come to the Mangalore-Hasan railway line which is under construction. The Railway Minister has promised that it would be completed by 1976. Looking to the provision that Iris been made for this line, it is very inadequate and I think it is not possible to complete it even by I 1978. Therefore, I would request the Minister to reconsider and see that this I line is completed as early as possible. Regarding conversion of gauge from Banga- I lore to Mysore it has to be taken up I immediately and completed. They have taken up conversion from Guntakal to Bangalore. As regards goods traffic there is a lot of difficulty in transhipment from BG to MG. Therefore, last time, the late revered Railway Minister, Shri Lalit Narayan Mishra, promised that in respect j of backward areas if the State Government came forward to make land and other facilities available, the Railways would take up new lines and also conver- I *ion of existing lines. The Karnataka ' Government have written to the Railway ' 89 Appropriation (Railways) [22 MAR.. 1975] Bills, 1975 90

91 Appropriation (Railways) (RAJYA SABHA] Bills, 1975 92

93 Appropriation (Railways) [22 MAR. 1975] Bills, 1975 94

95 Appropriation (Railways) [RAJYA SABII \| Mb, 1975 96

97 Appropriation (Railwivs) - [22 MAR. 1975] Bills, 1975 98

SHRI S. W. DHABE (Maharashtra) : Mr. Deputy Chairman, Sir, I am really surprised to note that the last speaker, who is a member of the Jana Sangh, spoke in terms of regional considerations and wanted that the Headquarters of the Western Railway should be shifted from Bombay to Gujarat. Sir, this is not the right approach to national problems and 99 Appropriation (.Railways) [RAJYAS^BHAl Bills, 1975 100

[Shri S- W. Dhabe] Sif, there are three factors connected with it is not in the interests of the nation. There is industrial relations. Firstly, Sir, the a demand from many States in the South that management and officers should know the there should be a separate Railway Zone for norms of industrial relations. I do not find any each State and they want that each State training programme for training how to deal should have its own Railway Zone. I think with the staff, or how to deal with problems this would go against the interests of the expeditiously. If they do not change their country and this type of talk will certainly outlook, if they do not attend to the lead to national disintegration. Therefore, Sir, grievances in time, they will utimately the cosmopolitan character of the administra- accumulate and create u grave crisis, and we tive arrangements of the Railways should not shall again be falling in some trap and strike be disturbed at all. will become an annual feature or there will be strikes many times. Sir, the most important thing now is the statement made by the honourable Railway Secondly, Sir, there are large number of Minister in his Budget speech. On page 12, unions. Last time a meeting was called of all Sir, he has said: the unions. There are craft-wise unions— Station Masters' Union, Ticket Collectors' "I firmly believe that only an enlightened Union and so many others—and there is much management evokes the best response from scope for politicians and others to multiply its employees." unions, because the occupations are 700 to He further states. 800. There are only two federations. The Railways have not taken steps to eliminate "The well-being of the stalf forms a multiplicity of unions. Unless this is done, corner stone of this policy." there can be no concrete results. In order to Sir, I would like to point out that if they make collective bargaining successful I feel really want to improve the industrial relations that the policy of industrial relations and in the Railways, they will have to learn a few industrywide unions should extendi to this. lessons from the last strike. Industrial The Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes Relations is such a subject—it is a very want the^ir separate unions and the tribal advanced subject in modern countries—that people also want their separate union >n the modern techniques are being used, and when Railways. I feel, Sir, that they must be new techniques are being used, strikes become completely banned. There should be large unnecessary. What I mean to say is that strikes industrial unions which can deliver the goods which lead to a law and order problem are not and which alone can create in atmosphere of at all necessary. The best thing for the Rail- good relations between the Railways and ways to do is. to learn the lesson from the employees. strike of last year. I am told that an amount of about Rs. 60 crores was lost directly in this Sir, the third thing I would like to suggest is strike. Prevention should be the remedy. And that they must find out the bottlenecks. But for that purpose, the former Railway Minister, there is no attempt. There is no wage policy. Mr. L. N. Mishra, while speaking last time on Today, the people belonging to Scheduled the railway strike said that it was high time Castes and Scheduled Tribes are employed as that trade unions in the Railways should be contingent or casual labour in many places free from politics and they should aim at one and they are paid the wages which the Collec- federation for the Railways. There is no tor in each district fixes. This contingent mention of that anywhere in the Railway labour, having two or three lakhs employees Minister's speech. at different places is paid fifty per cent less than what regular employees 101 Appropriation {Railways) [22 MAR. 1975] Bills, 1975 102 are paid or what is the all-India pay scale, i is referred for adjudication to the Industrial They have been working for years and I are Tribunal or any machinery under the industrial getting different pay in different districts, law. Railway being the biggest transport depending upon the minimum wage or the industry, they should accept as a norm of Collector fixing the pay scales and wages in industrial relations that their problems will that State. Discrimination is very great. I will also be referred to adjudication machinery like the Minister to look into the matter. The available in our country. Small things like contingent labour should be paid at par with termination or suspension may not be very other railway employees. big or important from the Railway Administration point of view, but it is of vital importance to the individual employee who is Sir. another point which is very im suspended for months and years together does portant is about the promises given by the not get any redress. He has to rely upon the Railways at the time of strike. A knee mercy of the deciding authorities. It may take number of people, when the interests of one or two years. In the Slate from which I the nation were in danger, staked their come, under the Bombay Industrial Relations lives; they were on duty. Many were Act, if a man is terminated from service or assaulted. At that time a promise was dismissed, he can go to the labour court and his given that their children or their depen grievance can be looked into within three dents will get priority in employment. months. If it is found that he has been Hut instead of that, after the strike was wrongly dismissed, he can be reinstated. over, many of them were assaulted. One This is a great deterrent for officers acting example is Matunga workshop in Bombay arbitrarily. I, therefore, suggest that norms where an employee's son was stoned to and policy must be laid down for industrial re- death. I will like to know from the hon. lations and the Government must be firm in | Minister what happened to the promises dealing with those whose interests are not the given by him to the employees who were interests of the working class, who do not want on duty, who staked their lives? How the welfare of the working class and who want many people and how many of their de only political exploitation of the working class. pendents have been given jobs in the hist I fail to understand why should the Government one year? Tf the promises given to them feel shy in taking any action against the All at a crucial time are not fulfilled, the India Railway-men's Federation. Their Government will lose its credibility and recognition has not been cancelled. They are the the workers will not be able to do people who went on strike. In the speeches their duty properly and faithfully. made by Mr. George Fernandes, he even gave a I would like to say two other call to the Army and others not to take part | or things for the sake of good to co-operate with the Government. Such and happy industrial unions do not have the interest of the relations. working class or the nation in mind. Therefore, Bossism must go. In all the modern it is high time for the Railway countries, industrial relations have become Administration to take firm decisions and to successful because the officers treat their have a firm policy regarding those who want employees on equal basis and informally. to violate the norms of industrial relations. They help them to solve their problems. {Time bell rings) I leave this question here. Therefore, the attitude of the officers in the Railway Administration will go a long way There are other problems which I woul< in improving the indsutrial relations in this like the Railway Minister to consider. The; vital sector of economy. I would also ask relate to amenities to passengers and others why should the Government or the Railway The maintenance of railways is very poot Administration feel shy in applying the Industrial Disputes Act to its employees. No reference has "been made to it. Not a single question 103 Appropriation {Railways) [RAJYA SABHA] Bills, 1975 104

ISbri S. W. Dhabel A very large amount has been spent on survey The canteen services are bad. If we travel on for this in order to meet the traffic demands of Bombay-Calcutta line by Calcutta Mail, you the metropolitan cities. We must accelerate cannot eat the food served there. I would like the work on the tube railways in all the merto- to request the Minister to go himself or to politan cities. have some inspection of the canteen services. Lastly, Sir, I would like to refer to the There are many malpractices in the canteen narrow gauge lines. In the Vidarbha area from services. There are other problems.( Time bell where I come, there are so many narrow rings). All these things require the attention of gauge lines. Sir, my friend, Mr. Mathur has the Railway Board. There is the problem of said on this. Sir, on the Gon-dia—Jabalpur beggers. In any station, if you are taking food1 line, the compartments are such that nobody or standing at the gate, you are surrounded by can sleep in the night. I was told that the beggars asking for alms. Is there no law or engineer who constructed those bogies was can the Railway Administration not provide a given a prize at that time because he regulation by which they can prevent beggars constructed such bogies that people cannot from going into the trains and the railway sleep in them. Sir, for the Nagpur-Jabalpur stations? Sir, many a time, beggars come into line, a survey was made but nothing further the first-class 4 p.M. compartments also and has been done till now. In the Konkan irea, in the conductors do not take any action. I feel the west Maharashtra, about 52 projects are this question of beggars is vtry troublesome pending but nothing has been done. and a nuisance, specially to the foreigners. In conclusion, Sir, I would like to say about I find many times the beggars surroun. another thing and that is about the wagon ding them and harassing them. I think. Sir, movement from the coal areas. If we some action is necessary in this regard. manufacture the wagons and other things more, we can export to other countries who Sir, the last point which I would like to are demanding them. If they manufacture suggest is this. When we talk of this railway more, that will solve not only our money expansion, the areas which require priority are problem but the question of movement of the areas where the metropolitan cities are wagons also will be solved, in the matter of situated. They are the main centres of employment, Harijans and the Scheduled industrial activity. If the problems of the Castes people should be given a priority. metropolitan cities are not solved, whole India With these words. Sir, I conclude. Thank can suffer in the mattet of industrial you. productioin. In Bombay itself, there is a demand for a long time for four lines on the SHRI T. V. ANANDAN (Tamil Nadu): Sir, harbour branch. There is no over-bridge or railways is a national asset and it should not Vadala there. Nobody takes up the be politicalised for the interest of the party. responsibility because it is connected with four parties—the Railways, the State Sir, I have got the facts to show that the Government, the Bombay Port Trust and the works that have been allowed to Andhra, Bombay Municipal Corporation. I fail to Kerala, Karnataka and Tamil Nadu, after the understand why this could not be taken up. If introduction of the Budget, have been the over-bridge is not there, there is a curtailed resulting in hundreds and hundreds bottleneck of railway traffic. And all of workers becoming unemployed. Is this the industrial workers come front the harbour policy that at the cost of uhc South Indian branch, and they are not c-etting good States, some other States should flourish? Is transport service today. Sir, the next point this in the national interest or is it which I would like to say is about the tube railways which is pending for a long time. 105 Appropriation (Railways) [22 MAR. 1975] BW.s, 1975 106 national integration, I want to ask. I know, that is, the D.M.K. Chief Minister, which is Sir, that on the Kanyakumari- Tnvandrum- an opposition party. Tirunelveli line, the work was started but it was slowed down. The work on the Hassan- Sir, I next come to the Golden Rock Mangalore line in Karnataka is slowed down. workshop which has been well-planned to So, also the conversion work-on the produce not less than 1200 wagons. Today Guntakal-Bangalore line is slowed down. And you have curtailed its capacity to 750 wagons the work on the Quilon'—Cochin line is also thereby rendering hundreds of workers slowed down. surplus. In the Indian Railways there are three workshops to manufacture wagons. Hon. [The Vice-Chairman (Shri .Tagdish Prasad Members have just now stated that for want Mathur) in ihe Chair]. of wagons, the movement is hampered. So, And all those workers who are employed why don't you give full work to the rated there are now rendered surplus. Sir, I know for capacity of the Golden Rock workshop. You a fact that on the 1st of March, about 100 have proof that they would produce what is young men who are employed in the wanted. I think the Railway Ministry should electrification work of Madras* ThiruveHur apply its mind to give full capacity work to line have been served with one month's notice, the Golden Rock workshop. and they are going to be retrenched. How are you going to solve the unemployment Now, coming to Rajdhani Express, we problem in this country when those who were were assured here some three years back that employed are rendered surplus and sent home Madras will be connected to Delhi by V Rajdhani Express but no steps have so far been taken except to curtail the running hours This is not a wise policy. Sir, as everybody of the G.T. Express very recently. I do not knows, Tamil Nadu is suffering economically know when the Railway Ministry will think very badly. There is no water. The State of these lines. Government has come forward to declare Ramnad District as drought-ridden area and Another point that I want to raise, Sir, is the State Government have also come forward about the payment of compensation. It is said to start relief works. that more than Rs. 12 crores are paid by way of compensation, 40 per cent of which is Sir, when the Southern Railway recom- compensation towards food commodities. mended to the Railway Ministry to waive or Why not consider my suggestion that to suspend the recoveries of the loans taken by whenever a goods train carrying foodgrains is the railwaymen temporarily, although the on the move, it should be guarded by an Railway Board agreed, 1 think, the Finance armed guard, the wagon numbers in which Ministry came in the way and said No, the foodgrains are contained should be given to State Government had not done anything for the security forces and the security force the State employees and why should the people be made responsible ? We can try this Railways set a bad example. Sir, is the experiment in some sector and see the results. Railways a national asset or is the Madras Why should you blame the security people Stale a national asset, this must be thought of. that they are bad ? All the security-men are A railwayman, whether he is starving or not, not bad. All the hon. Members of Parliament he has to function for 24 hours, to see that the know that all the hon. Members of Parliament trains are moving from Kanya Kumari to are not failing. This morning there was a Mount Himalayas. Such being the case, the reference about the hon. Members of Finance Ministry should not have taken this Parliament and Legislatures. So also there are attitude. The reply that I have got, I am saying good and bad people everywhere in the today, I will be sending to the Chief Minister country. As a nation we are lacking in of Madras within a week, national integrity. As 107 Appropriation (Railways) [RAJYA SABHA] Bills, 1975 108

[Shri T. V. Anandan] Sir. there are still quite a few casual labourers. I think it is not the policy of the such, why should you blame only the security Railways to send them out on account of the forces people who are ill-paid ? Therefore, I strike. But Members do not understand how. say, put an armed guard in all goods trains for want of funds, casual labourers are being which carry foodgrains. Let us try whether sent out; they are also now included among they are amenable to reason or they expose the strikers. Why not spend the amount that themselves. you have already allotted ? The Government Sir. I am toltl very recently—I do not vnow can work out a deficit budget of Rs. 750 how far it is true— that the Jayanti-Jnnata crore«. but they cannot add ten or twelve Express is running without an under guard. In croies lo it. If they could do it, they can every train there must be an under guard. That thereby create employment for these casual is essential from the safety point of view. I do labourers in the various zones who, Members not know why in the Jayanti-Janata Express in of Parliament say, ha\e been victimised for some sections—not from Delhi to Mangalore, participation in the strike. but in some sections—under guard is removed as a measure of economy. It affects I think the Railway Minister must apply his very badly the safety work of the Railways. I mind to all these points and quickly solve all think the Railway Minister should apply his these problems. mind to this aspect also. Sir, coming to the labour co-operatives, there is a decision taken by the Railway Ministry that they should encourage the labour co-operatives but I think the old rules arc still in force. Demurrage rules which were framed by the Britishers to counter the contractors are still in force and so also the labour co-operatives are not being encouraged by the Railway Ministry. I think, if you are really interested in encouraging labour co- operatives these rides ought to be amended very quickly. Sir, about the strike many have said many things. 1 say that in the North-East Frontier Railway, some Senior Stenographers who were attached to the Heads of Departments and who were absent for some days, when they were taken back to duty were reverted to work with junior officers whereas some strikers who were also taken back were permitted to work with the Heads of Departments. I say that this discrimination is not fair and it is not right also. A striker is a striker whether he has absented himself from duty or whether he has participated in the strike. They should be treated alike. Senior Stenographers should not be reverted to work with junior officers and junior people should not be permitted to work in their place.

109 Appropriation (Railways) [22 MAR. 1975] Bills, 1975 110

Ill Appropriation {Railways) [RAJYA SABHA] mils, 1975 112

113 Appropriation (Railways) [22 MAR. 1975] Bills, 1975 114

115 Appropriation (Railways) [RAJYA SABHA] Bills, 1975 116

SHRI VISWANATHA MENON (Kerala): Sir, the Indian Railways are the biugesi public sector undertaking and their working is of the utmost importance to this country. At the outset, 1 would request the hon. Minister to see that it is high time that normalcy in the functioning of the Railways was restored. There was a strike and lakhs of workers took part in it. Alter the withdrawal of the strike the Minister should rise to the occasion and be magnanimous in bringing back normalcy in the working conditions. Even now many 117 Appropriation (Railways) [22 MAR. 1975] Bills, 1975 118 workers are standing outside. They are not area ts now rather diminished. And especially being taken back. In my own town more than work about the Ernakulam-Tri-vandrum 75 casual workers are still out, because they broad gauge project has also been neglected. I took part in the strike. Although there was a do not want to elaborate upon it. Although he judgment of the Kerala High Court—Not only is coming from the northern part of India, I a Single Bench but also a Division Bench to request the hon. Minister not to have a step- reinstate the casual workers—the Railways motherly attitude towards the Southern States, Board is sitting tight on that. This attitude is especially my State of Kerala. really deplorable. This vindictive attitude must be changed. 1 request the hon. Minister to come out of the clutches of the Railway Board AN HON. MEMBER: He has a sott corner for Kerala. bureaucrats and take a reasonable and democratic stand on this question. In this respect, I want to say one mure point on this. SHRI VISWANATHA MENON : Coming Anyhow, Mr. Qureshi was rewarded properly to the question of railway lines, Kerala is because he was promoted from a Deputy neglected. After the Quilon railway, we are Minister to a Minister of State after treating not getting any new railway line. We are the workers in such a brutal manner. Now he always asking for that. But nothing is done. In can be magnanimous. Not only was he this connection, 1 want to draw the attention rewarded, but Mr. A. P. Sharma who was the of the hon. Minister to the construction of a President of the National Federation of Rail- link line from Kayan-kulam to Emakulam via waymen was also rewarded. Let all these Alleppey. A survey has been completed. It is people get rewards. But let the workers also be only a question of some 57 km. And it will be reinstated. My only request is that normal very much beneficial to the people of that conditions must be brought back and the area, According to the assessment of the railways must run on a profit. Railway itself, in the beginning itself there will be a 5 per cent return. So that must be taken up. The Kerala Government has The problems raised by the workers— requested ; all the MPs have requested and the especially the questions of bonus and parity in entire people of Kerala have also requested for wages—are still important problems affecting this line. So, the hon. Minister should take up the working class. So, by smashing the strike that small construction. It will be very helpful or by such brutal methods, they cannot be to that area ; that area will be developed and it solved. Those questions still persist. And even will not be a loss to the Railway. In this those who have not taken part in the strike connection, I want to remind you that the think that Railway is an industry, that they are Government of Kerala has offered the supply entitled to get benefits as industrial workers, of wooden sleepers and Government land free that they must come under the Industrial for the project, in view of its great importance Disputes Act, that they must get bonus and to the State. 1 request that this project should that they must have parity in wages with other be sanctioned and started in 1975 itself. public sector undertakings. 1 hope that Mr. Qureshi will face these problems as a realist Now. I come to the question of electri- and solve them in favour of the working fication. 'Kerala which is the farthest State classes. Sir, I do not want to speak more about from the coal mines should have been given that because, naturally, during this time only the first priority for railway electrification. It we get our chance to speak about our own is expected that electrification of railway lines State. in Kerala will result in a saving of 8 to 10 per cent working compared to diesel or steam hauling at present. Sir, I agree with Mr. Anandan who said that construction work in the Southern 119 Appropriation (Railways) [RAJYA S \BHAJ Bills, 1975 120

[Shri Viswanatha Menon] is going on and it will be done. M> humble Apart from economy thus effected, the submission,is that such a profitable proposition switch-over to electricity will release at least like that has been agitated for by the people of one train path capacity on the all-India trunk Kerala for years together. But it is not being route from the colliery to Kerala and thus speeded up. I am not going into the question release the path required for the lailway coal of all the necessary lines and tracks for movement for other general goods traffic. Kerala. But I request you to look into this The proposition for electrification in Kerala matter. There are certain districts in Kerala should, therefore, receive immediate where not a single inch of railway line is there. attention. For example, in the Idikki district there is no railway link. You must have a railway Here, r should like to say that the Gov- link there because it has rich tea plantations ernment of Kerala has come out with the offer and gardens. Such a line will be of cheap electricity to the Railway Board. profitable but you are not doing anything Therefore, please do something. The .'ibout it. I request the hon'ble Minister Railway Board is sitting tight on all these to rise to the occasion at this particular problems. They are not looking with a far- juncture. Please do not be a prisoner of this reaching attitude towards all these Railway Board. Take initiative, take problems. My complaint is thut you are decisions and see to it that the decisions are dieselfsing in areas where coal is available and implemented. Thank you. sending coal, instead, to places in the southernmost States like Kerala. This makes coal very expensive. I do not know SHIU HAMID ALI SCHAMNAD how the Railway Board is thinking. This is a (Kerala) : Mr. Vice-Chairman, Sir, the topsy turvy way of thinking which 1 cannot Railway is one of the biggest public sector understand. In Kerala there is undertakings run by the Government of electricity. Why not use it ? These burca- India. Nearly 35 lakhs of employees are crats, do not have any new ideas and the being absorbed in this big sector. But what is the hon'ble Minister and the Cabinet Minister, Shri condition of the employees to-day ? Arc these Kamlapati Tripathi, have to share the blame. employees contented and satisfied with their remuneration, with their working conditions in You have asked for money for the Kail-way the Railways ? No, Sir. The working class in the Board. But Board for what purpose ? Scrap it. Railways is not at all satified with their We can do without it. We should be able to conditions. So. it is the duty of the manage the affairs of the railways even without administration to see that the employees and it. Unless that is done the problem will not be workers are satis-lied. They should be taken into solved. confidence and the Railway Ministry should Coming to another important point, namely, consider these 36 lakhs of employees as the establishment of a railway divisional members of their own family. They should headquarters at Trivandrum. That point we have look after the families of these employees and been agitating. But even for that the Railway workers as they would look after their own Board is not prepared to do anything. What is family members. Then only the working of wrong in having a railway headquarters at the railway administration would run Trivandrum ? On this point also I request the smoothly and in the best interest of the hon'ble Minister to do it as early as possible nation. during this financial year itself. Sir. at the outset I would like to point out Coming to the new line of Kuttippiunm to one thing which is agitating us. especially Ernakulam via Guruvayoor and Cranga-nore we the backward communities of this country have been agitating this question. The hon'ble like Harijans and Muslims and other Minister has said that a survey communities. What is the 121 Approprkton (Railways) [22 MAR. 1975] Bills, 1975 122 percentage of Muslims and Harijans employed South and the North are connected by a in the railways ? Can the Board confidently Rajdhani Express, introduced as early as. say that according to their proportion of the possible from Delhi to Madras. Another thing population. Muslims have been absorbed in which I would like the Government to the Railways '.' Can the Railway Minister consider is the introduction of a Jay-:,nti boldly come forward and say "Out of these 36 train from Mangalore to Bombay via Calicut lakhs of employees, this is the number of end Arkonam. Hundreds of people from the Muslims, this is the number of Harijans and Malabar region, Can-nanore, Calicut and so this is the number of Christians and we have on go from Man-golore side to Bombay for given due representation to them in the their work. For that they now depend on road Railways"? Can they say lhat ? No, Sir. No traffic. doubt a member of the minority community is there as Minister of State in the Ministry of So, Sir, this train is absolutely necessary. Railways. Similarly Mr. Fakhruddin All When Mr. T. A. Pai was the Minister of Ahmed is there as President of India. But by Railways, he even said that he was considering that, the Muslim masses of the land arc not it. He actually said : "I would sec that this content; they are not satisfied, because their train is introduced." He also said that he was families will have to be fed. If one poor having a survey made. 1 do not know what Muslim is employed in the Railways, his happened to it. It was said that a train was family will be fed. So I appeal to the Minister proposed to be introduced from Cochin to to consider this matter. When Mr. Bombay. If you introduce a train from Hanumanthaiya was here as Railway Minister, Chochin to Bombay, it means the entire he had admitted on the floor of the House that Malabar area, including Calicut, Cannanore Muslims did not have due representation in and Mangalore would be neglected. So, in the Railways. He further said "I would see that order to touch the entire Malabar region, it they are given due representation in the would be better if you introduce a train from Railways". He admitted it and made statement Mangalore to Bombay. on the floor of the other House also. 1 appeal to the Minister concerned to consider this SHRI L. MAHAPATRO : Even Gua matter and give directions to the Department can be touched that way. to recruit members of the minority communities also to the Railways so that they also contribute for the development of the SHRI HAMID ALI SCHAMNAD: Railways, and also for the development of the Yes. nation as a whole. There is another thing also. There should be a train from Mangalore to Bangalore. Now Sir, coming to other matters, it has been it is only via Jolaipettai. Bangalore is the pointed out by my friend there that the South Headquarters of Karnataka and if this train is is being neglected. I need not say further. I introduced, it would be touching the Malabar only join him. We were all agitating that there regions. As it is, we have got only one bogey should be a fast train from Delhi to Madras which is attached to the Mangalore Mail. like the Raj-dhani train. Even now, excepting Instead of that, one train should be run from the G.T. Express, there is only one train, the Mangalore to Bangalore. Link Express, between the North and the South. We do not have a fast train. I appeal to There is another important line about which Mr. Qureshi, who is taking a really good I would like to mention something. We were interest in the welfare of the Railway agitating for a long time for what is called the Department, to^ see that the Konkan Railway. There should be a line from Bombay to Mangalore. I do not know whether any survey 123 Appropriation (Railways) [RAJYA SA.BHA] Bills, 1975 124

[Shri Hamid Ali Schamnadl ragiri river is an important river and the bridge has been ordered so far or any survey has been thereon is a very important bridge. The completed so far. I do not know what Ihe Railway Administration may also be knowing position is today. Sir, this is in the interest of that there is a bridge on the river, Netravati, the nation as a whole because, today, Delhi is which is near Mangalore. There is already a not directly connected with the South. We will footpath provided along this bridge. This is in have to go by a roundabout route. If this Karnataka and the Chandragiri river is in Konkan Railway is started, that is, if Bombay Kerala. The entire fishermen-population lives and Mangalore are connected along the coast, south of this river and they catch their fish and then the route would be Cochin/ Mangalore, come to the nearest market in Kasargode by Mangalore/Bombay and Bombay/Delhi and crossing this river. All the 24 hours, Sir, men, we would be coming from Chochin and women and childern, school and college Mangalore to Delhi rr'a Bombay without students, are crossing this river and it is going to Madras and thus we would be saving absolutely necessary that a footpath is a distance of about 500 miles. Even after 27 provided along this bridge. I would appeal to years of independence, Sir, this nationally the honourable Minister to consider this case important line has not been given any consi- sympathetically and waive the procedure of deration and no survey has yet been done, as asking for some contributions from the Kerala far as I know. This is one of our important Government or from the municipal bodies. I requests and we have been agitating for this appeal to the Minister to take a sympathetic line for last so many years, for this Konkan view and see that the footpath is provided Railway. I do not know whether any start has along this Chandragiri bridge. been made in this regard and I do not know Then, Sir, I would like to mention one whether the Government is thinking in terms more thing. Thefts are increasing in many of of having a line between Bombay and Manga- the trains and everyday we are receiving lore, I appeal to Mr. Qureshi, Sir, to consider complaints that thefts are taking place in the this case sympathetically and see that this trains and that thieves and other unscrupulous Mangalore/Bombay line is taken up and at people enter the trains and there is no security least some survey work is completed and for the passengers, particularly the long- some start is given to this work. distance passengers. The Minister has said that steps are being There is another important about which I taken to prevent it. But this is on the increase. have written to the honourable Minister. I hope that he will consider it... There is a river called the Chandragiri river near Kasaragode. We were agitating for a {Time bell rings) footpath along this Chandragiri river bridge. Another thing is about the railway stations Now, I have got a reply from the Railway in the south. The platforms are at a very low Board saying that this is feasible and that this level. Platforms should be raised to the level has been surveyed and the expenditure has of the train, otherwise the women, old people been estimated at Rs. 5 lakhs for this footpath and sickly people find it difficult. In stations and, Sir, this expenditure has to be met either like Mangalore, Kasaragode and many other by the Kerala Government or the local bodies. places, what happens is that when the train Sir, this is a hard case because no stops they have to jump down. Actually a municipality or panchayat would be in a ladder is required to get down on the plat- position to give about Rs. 5 lakhs for a form. For that we have represented already footpath. On the other hand, the importance of that platforms should be raised to the level of this bridge should be taken into account. The the train and also that platforms should be Chand- lengthy in many of the coastal stations. 125 Appropriation (Railways) [22 MAR. 1975] Bills, 1975 126

I hope the Government will consider Minister and also to the administration to whatever suggestions I have made, sym- look into these cases thoroughly and if there pathetically. is something reasonable in them— and I think there should be something reasonable—those Thank you very much. cases may also be treated with sympathy and leniency as has been done in •other cases. SHRI JAGAN NATH BHARDWAJ (Himachal Pradesh) : Mr. Vice-Chairman Sir, Secondly, Sir, there has been a talk about firstly, I support both the Appropriation Bills, the Railway Board. I think the Railway Board that is. ihe Railway Appropriation Rill No. 1 is not totally undesirable as many people have and the Railway Appropriation Bill No. 2, said. What I think is that it should be re- because the performance of the Railways has constituted. I think, in place of one big generally been quite satisfactory, and it is due Railway Board, one powerful Railway Board, to the good stamina of the administration as there should be a Board at the regional level, well as the Railway Minister and the Minister so to say, or zonal level or so, because this is of State, Mr. Qureshi, that the worsening essential for the sake of decentralising the situation which was caused due to the strike, administration of such an unwieldy or- has been averted and the country is now safe. ganization like the Railways. It is In fact, if they had not displayed so much of commercial organisation. There-5 stamina, one can imagine how worse the P.M. fore it is quite essential that this situation would have been, one would simply body should be decentralised. shudder to think what would happen to our The entire railway system as it country. So, Good Luck ! And it is very good exists today may be divided into zones and the of Nature that normalcy in the Railways has zones should be reogranised to bring them in come and the budget is showing signs of line with the other zones, such as Defence improvement. This is all due to the good work zones and administrative zones and many done by the administration and the Ministers. other type of zones. This will end the unneces- sary tussle for making the headquarters at this The industrial relations, particularly re- place or that place. The matter should be instating those who werft on strike and discussed administratively, commercially and leniency which you have shown, is worthy of according to the principles of good working. praise from the labour side. There are a few When this is done, there should be zonal cases, but those, as far as 1 know, are boards in which there should be receiving sympathetic consideration of the representatives of workers, Parliament and authorities, and I think this matter will be other experts along with the Railway Ad- finally settled smoothly and to the satisfaction ministration. In order to conduct the work in a of the majority of the working people. proper and co-ordinated way, there should be Central Railway Board and that Board should be headed by the Railway Minister. In this Now, a few days back a group of workers Board also, there should be representatives of met me and said that some workers, before the workers, Members of Parliament and one or strike began, were recommended for some two users. As a matter of fact, the Members of awards or some incentives, but that now they Parliament can also look after the interests of are being refused on the plea that they took part users. In this way, all the problems can be in the strike. I discussed a lot with them. Their : tackled and all the aspects which have been plea was that they were prevented by the pointed out in the House will be considered. strikers while they were going to their duty. I cannot say how far this is tms. But I will Thirdly, Sir, in my State of Himachal appeal to the Railway Pradesh, late Shri L. N. Mishra laid the 127 Appropriation (Railways) [RAJYA SABHA] Bills, 1975 128

IShri lagan Nath Bhardwaj! foundation of a But I can very well understand the difficulties railway from Nangul to Urn. This is a 30 mile of the Railway Administration which are long track. Shri Mishra assured that this line running at present under a great financial will be completed within 3-4 years. I would burden. But, I think, our object be to accept request the Railway Minister kindly to this demand ot bonus, if not this year, next continue this work quite sympathetically year or year next to that. For that, 1 would call realising the needs of hilly people who have upon my friends, the worker friends to accept been ignored since a long time. There is an the challenge. As I have requested the Railway urge in them for development and bettering authorities, similarly, T would. appeal to my their lot. I think the railway lines constructed worlcer friends that they should also realise in these hilly regions and other backward the importance of bringing the Railways to a regions will be an asset to the country and not more profitable stage so that they are able to a burden on the country because we find in push forward the demand for bonus and build them a great urge of sincerity of purpose. a case for bonus in the Railways also. Seeing the present conditions now, it is very difficult Fourthly and finally, 1 would say that there to establish this case although we are trying is talk of corruption in the railways. I can very much for this. understand tips and other things. But the organised type of corruption in the railways With these words, Sir, I conclude. Thank bring a bad name to the railways. I would you. request the Railway Minister and the Railway Administration to accept this challenge and do SHRI N. H. KUMBHARE (Maharashtra) : something to break this organised type of Mr. Vice-Chairman Sir, I would like to make corruption. Corruption can be understood to a mention of some of the problems of the some extent. But this organised type of workers in general and that of the Scheduled corruption is intolerable. 5000 crores of rupees Castes and Scheduled Tribes in particular. are invested in this big organisation. As a matter of fact, they should have given us at Sir, in the first place, I would like to state least 500 crores of rupees a year calculated at that the Railway Administration does not 10 per cent interest of the investment. But the provide to the workers a speedy and results are very poor and this is a heavy task efficacious remedy against the grievances. If a on our shoulders. worker is demoted, he has to go to the High And we will have to carry it forward with Court after appealing to the executive great determination and with hard work so that authority. If a worker is superseded, he has to this blot on the railways can be removed. Sir, go to the executive authority in appeal and in the Railways, I have seen that there are then to the High Court. If be is removed or many types of people who go to their homes in suspended from service, he has first to go to the evening with hundred rupees each and the executive authority and ultimately a right there are some people who do not get a chance is administered to him to go to the High Court. to get anything. Now, there is jealousy and The result is that if a worker is dismissed from rivalry between those two with the result that service, even though his dismissal is not proper working of the Railways suffers. proper or wrongful, he will not get the relief unless he goes through this channel of Apart from this, Sir, there is a demand for appealing to the zonal authority, then to the bonus. Certainly, this is reasonable labour board and ultimately referring the because the payment of bonus will improve the matter to the High Court, and lastly, the involvement of the workers. It will i create a Supreme Court. The result is that in a case better type of industrial relations. where the judicial authority holds the termination illegal and improper, the Railway authorities are required to pay 129 Appropriation (Railways) [22 MAR. 1975] Bills, 1975 130 the entire back wages. It is all right that wc that all those who had participated in the have removed and dismissed a large number strike but were not responsible for any sort of of workers. 1 think, they are in thousands. violent activities or sabotage or intimidation What is the outcome of this? The outcome should be taken back in employment, 1 can would be that there will be a large number of say, without being contradicted now, that cases in the High Courts and the Supreme there are today hundreds of workers who have Court. Ultimately, it would be seen that even been removed from work and there is no if one-fourth of the workers get the relief of chaige against them and that they have not reinstatement and back wages, the Railway done anything that would amount to Administration will be required to pay to the intimidation or anything that would amount to tune of crores of rupees by way of b;:ck wages doing something violent or involving violent and. therefore, ths time has come v. hen we action but still they have not been taken in have to consider afresh as to how our employment. I have myself represented some industrial relations should be. Sir. my friend. of the cases. I cannot understand why they Mr. Dhabe, has very rightly pointed out that have not been taken in employment. And, under the Industrial Law, a worker can therefore, in all such cases there has been in- certainly, after dismissal, go to the court ordinate delay in taking them back. The immediately and get his case adjudicated; that Railway Board should now examine and find forum is available and that remedy is out who is responsible for the delay in the available. disposal of these cases. That is the But. that is not so in the Railways. And, responsibility of the Railway Board and of the 1 cannot understand what difficulty could General Managers or the Zonal Managers or there be if you provided a forum for the Divisional Managers. Whosoever were speedy and efficacious remedy. Then the entrusted with the work of supervising the worker will also understand that his case cases and taking appropriate action and if they is being judiciously scrutinised have committed laches or lapses, they should and he will feel that he has no case and he will be dealt with so that such delay at the cost of not proceed ahead. But, when he spends one the Railway Administration would not be year or two years before the adjudicating repeated again. That is another suggestion of authority, he knows and the hon. Minister mine. would also agree with me that, by and large, the tendency is to uphold the order of the Then, I may point out. Sir, that in res-;di of lower authorities howsoever wrong, illegal, tbs Scheduled Casus, there has been improper, inula fuk. that order may be. That is discrimination. If an inquiry is held, it would the tendency nnd ultimately when a judicial be seen that in the matter of taking back in scrutiny is held, that order is set aside and the employment or reinstating them, Scheduled result is colossal loss which the Railways are Caste employees have been discriminated called upon to bear on account of their wrong against. I know of certain Zones and of certain policies. Therefore, my sugegstion would be Railways where all the employees except and it is high time to kler that the Railway Scheduled Caste employees have been Administration should give every worker a reinstated. Therefore, it gives one the forum where he can seek the redress of his impression that a good deal of prejudice grievances without much time being operates at all Government levels and consumed in between and in that way it will probably in order to justify that they have be bene-fical both to the workers and to the been very alert and that they have sacked so Railway Administration, and, therefore, this many workers, only the Scheduled Caste should be done. This is one of my suggestions. people have been made scapegoats. This is my Secondly, Sir, even though the Railway allegation and this is based on information Administration has now taken a decision which has been received by me. Today also I 7 RSS/75—5 can say, Sir, as I have said earlier, that there are hundreds of Scheduled Caste workers who 131 Appropriation {Railways) [RAJYASABHA] Bills. 1975 132

IShii lagan Nath Bhardwaj] have not but the reservation quota should be earmarked done anything and yet they have not been on the basis of the total strength of the taken back in employment. employees in a particular cadre. Unless you do that I do not think it will be possible for the The other thing tha' I want to say is that Railway Board to secure the prescribed or when the Railway Board passes an order, 1 adequate representation for this class of think, the order in terms says that they are workers in the services. Since the Railway being taken back in employment. My Board always claims that they have been a bit submission is that when their removal is ahead of o'hers and that they have always found to be illegal and improper, the proper been very liberal in the matter of the order would be reinstatement. reservation policy, I think this suggestion And I would request the hon. Minister to see deserves the utmost sympathetic consideration. that with a view to doing justice to I the Unless you provide for reservation on the workers, the order is passed in terms of basis of the total strength of employees, the reinstatement with full back wages as if there reservation quota would not be filled and they has not been any.break in service. If you do not would still remain unrepresented in the give reinstatement and if you do not give them service. {Time bell rings) back wages, many more cases will crop up, Then, Sir, I would like to make a mention involving lakhs of rupees as expenditure for about the Special Cell. In the year 1972 the the railways. Therefore, this is another Railway Board had constituted a Special Cell suggestion of mine that the order taking back and the object of establishing this Cell was to the workers to employment should b; a proper protect the legitimate interests of the order and nothing short of reinstatement with Scheduled Castes in the services. It is more back wages and without break in service will than two years since it has been established but satisfy the workers. my impression is that the Celf is good for Sir, I would now refer to some of the nothing. Here is my experience. During the problems of the Scheduled Caste employees. It last three months I have sent not less than one is true that the Railway Board has accepted all hundred letters to the Ministry but not even in the directives and all the executive instructions a single case did I receive any reply. I will issued by the Government in toto with a view give you another glaring example as to how to implementing the Government policy with our problems are being dealt with by the regard to reservation in services. But as my Railway Board. Here is a letter which was other friends have pointed out, the addressed to the Minister on 2nd January, representation of Scheduled Castes and 1974 and the reply which I get to it is on 15th Scheduled Tribes in services is very meagre. I March, 1975. This is how our problems are think I am subject to correction that in Class I being solved. On the floor of the House we are services the representation is not more than one told that everything is being done but here for per cent and in Class II services the a letter from a Member of Parliament representation does not exceed three per cent. concerning a problem of recognition of an Now, the reservation rules have come into association, the Government takes more than force in the year 1952. It is more than 23 years one year to reply. Is this the way to solve our since the Government policy with regard to problems ? And it was not a matter where the reservation is being followed and being Government was required to collect some implemented. But even after a lapse of such a statistics, report or ■ comments. Nothing of long p'er-' iod, the position is that we do not the kind! It was a simple matter where some find even one or two per cent in higher Schoduled Caste people formed an association position. Therefore, it is not that they should and want to agitate for their rights which are only be given reservation in the existing vacan- provided for them under the Constitution in cies or, what you call, reserved vacancies, respect of service. 133 ppropriation (Railways) [22 MAR. 1975] Bills, 1975 134

And therefore they want recognition for a safeguard their special interests, that they I limited purpose. Sir, my submission is, as my want to form their own association. It is only friend Mr. Dhabe pointed out that he is against for a limited purpose to deal with all the multiplicity of unions, as a proposition 1 am in problems arising out of service matters, complete agreement with him but in a country namely, promotion, admission, appoiment etc. where every political party sponsors its own It is not for any other purpose as other unions union, Mr. Dhabe is a leader of the 1NTUC are formed for improving the conditions of and he would not refute my allegation when 1 employment of workers. The other unions can say that is the union, though of independent give a notice of strike but these associations character, sponsored by Congress. Mr. cannot. So, there should be no misunder- Fcrnandes is there. He has got his own standing . . . (Time bell rings). Sir, I have only political affiliations. Jana Sangh people have five minutes. their own unions. So, when every union has its origin from a political party 1 think it is not THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI JAG- possible in the present conditions to think of DISH PRASAD MATHUR) : You have one uniform union. Probably the suggestion is crossed your reserved quota as far as | being made that we could have one union by time-limit is concerned. making a law. 1 have my own doubts about it. With the freedom of association which is SHRI N. H. KUMBHARE : Then Sir, I will guaranteed under the Constitution I do not cut short. I will only speak about one problem think any law could be there to prohibit the which has been represented to me, when I was citizens to form an association. That would not in Karnataka. There is a Brindaban Express. It bt proper and such a law would be struck starts from Madras and goes up to Bangalore down. Government has no power to pass such and the demand is that it must stop at Jalarpet. a law. It stops for a minute at Bangarapet. As there are Kolar gold fields in the adjoining area of 1 am sorry to note what Mr. Dhabe has said Jalarpet, there is a demand that trains must that there are certain unions of Scheduled stop there. I requested the hon. Minister to Castes and Scheduled Tribes. I don't think consider this. there are unions which are functioning in the name of the Scheduled Castes and the SHRT K. N. DHULAP (Maharashtra): Mr. Scheduled Tribes and I would like to make it Vice-Chairman, Sir, I will begin my speech clear that we do not want to form such union. by quoting from tht speech delivered by late Scheduled Castes are there. They are in a Shri Lalit Narain Mishra on 21st August, substantial number. They are there as 1947. I quote : members of the union. They owe their allegiance to one or the other union but they "While we may not got as far as the are distributed. They only want to function in socialist countries, measures have to be a limited sphere by having their association. adopted to discourage and even curb Why should they want to have their own passengers traffic in order to maximise association? Sometimes you will agree with utilization of our transport capacity for me that conflicts arise. Suppose, there is a industrial and agricultural products." case of promotion. The Scheduled Caste employees say that this post belongs to the So, Sir, it appears from the extract that I Scheduled Caste quota and the other have just quoted, the policy of the contending employee says that it must go to Government is to discourage and curb the him. At times there are conflicts of this nature passenger traffic. And I have heard the and the union does not come to the rescue of a speeches of the hon'ble Members from this Scheduled Caste employee. It is for this side and that side also. They want the purpose, to Government to start more trains, long distance bound trains, more local 135 Appropriation (Railways) [RAJYASABHA] Bills; 1975 136

[Shri K. N. Dhulap] I taking place, particularly in the area from trains in (he suburban areas of Bombay to Kasara and from Bombay to metropolitan cities. The Karjat. This whole area is ridden with un- demand wholesome activities of the anti-social ele- is coming from the hon'ble Members in this ments, and they are carrying on these House to increase facilities and amenities, nefarious activities with the help of the more trains for passenger traffic—and the personnel of the Railway Protection Force. Government policy, as it appears from the When I said this, the hon'ble Minister at that quotation that 1 have placed before the time replied that this Railway Protection force House, is that they want to curb and has done a very laudable service, yeoman discourage passenger traffic. 1 would urge service, to the Department itself—and the upon the Minister to tell us whether that issue was shelved then and there. But, Sir. my policy still persists, whether they are fol- personal thinking is that unless and until this lowing that policy which was enunciated by Railway Protection Force is hand in glove with late Lalit Narain Mishra. If that is so. then these antisocial elements in that area, the thefts we should not put forward our grievances as would not take place. I am told that the far as the passenger traffic is concerned. If Railways had to pay Us. 10—15 crores per that policy has been changed, then only I year by way of compensation to the con- am going to place certain grievances of the signees whose consignments have been stolen passenger traffic, particularly in the along the railway lines. This is regarding the suburban areas. compensation to be paid to the consignees. What about the pilferage and thefts which are Sir, 1 come from one area where it is a taking place on the Railways '.' So if that whole crucial problem and very important issue thing is taken into consideration, it would of the people living in the suburban areas. mean that to the extent of mote than fifty They come from distant places to serve in crores of rupees the Government is put to loss, Bombay, and the traffic itself is so heavy that the Railways are put to loss. How that should unless and until more facilities, more local be cured and what remedies are to be adopted trains are given on the line, it would be very by the Government under that situation 7 Sir, difficult to cope with the situation. Therefore, unless and until a special cell is created by the my suggestion would be that the local trains Railways for this area which 1 starting from Bombay should go up to have just mentioned, these things will not Dombivili, and from Dombivili if should stop. come back to Bombay. Then certain places are there from where the local trains should What is the modus operand; of these people start ; otherwise, what happens is that in ? Sir. thefts generally take place on the trains coming from Kasara and Kalyan it is Railways. But when a culprit is found and is well high impossible for the people to get taken to a court of law, he takes the plea that a seat at Dombivili— the trains are so whatever material has been confiscated by the crowded that the people like sheep and polite and produced before the court, had been goats are pushed into the compartments. purchased by him in auction organised by the Therefore, my suggestion would be that Railways themselves as scrap and obsolete the local trains should start from Bombay spare parts. The result is that the courts gene- to Dombivili—and from Dombiviji to rally release the offenders. So I suggest that Bombay. Also Kasara and Asangaon. when such auctions of scraps lake place, the There are important centres from where material so auctioned should be mentioned in people are coming for service I purposes to the list that is prepared; otherwise these Bombay. This whole traffic j should be offenders get this plea and it is so favourable streamlined and more trains j should to them that they easily run on the suburban lines. Secondly, Sir, I have raised an issue in j this House regarding the thefts that are 137 Appropriation (Railways) [22 MAR. 1975] Bills, 1975 138 get away from the clutches of the law and come from that area. 1 do not know why this these activities are carried on continuously line has been taken up by the Government for without any hindrance whatsoever. So, Sir, construction. If at all they want to have a these facts should be taken into consideration. railway line, going through Dombivli, it ought to have gone to the area where the tribals are As far as my State of Maharashtra is living and the area which is undeveloped and concerned, the question of Konkan Railway, completely negiected for years together. It as referred to by the other hon. Member's should have gone from Dombivli via also, has been before the Government Bhiwandi to other places namely Wada, continuously for years together. It starts from Sawar upto Dahanu where the tribals are Diwa to Panvel. Now some local survey has living. From Bombay, these tribals are been carried out and they have gone up to living 60 to 70 miles away but those areas Apta. From Apta they want to go to Dasgaon. are utterly undeveloped and completely Now when this Railway from Diva is going to neglected. My friend raised the issue that we Mangalore, I do not know. At present. Di\a want Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes Panvel traffic is practically nil. What is the to be recruited in the Railway services but use of constructing the railway line at places how can they come to serve on the Railways where there are no big towns in between ? unless and until they have transport People coming from Panvel are generally facilities to come from that area to the place coming by bus to Mumbra and Frorn there, of work. Until and unless that is done, it will they go by railway to their places of work. be impossible for the Government, in spite of The Panvel-Diwa area is being used by the the laudable objectives and whatever they say anti-social elements to carry rice from that in their reports, to recruit the Scheduled Tribes area to Bombay and earn money without people in order to fill up their quota. Unless paying anything because the railway staff there and until that area is linked with the other is also not prepared to deal with these anti- developed areas, it is very difficult for the social elements because of their fear to the Scheduled Caste people to come and serve security of their own life. This is how things on the Railways. are taking place. I would request the hon. Minister to look into ii because only last year That point also should be taken into for this new r a i l w a y line, an amount of Rs. consideration. (Time bell rings). The last 15 lakhs was set aside in the Budget and this thing I would urge upon the Minister is that year also, a very meagre sum has been the facilities for the suburban people should allotted. So if at all the Government means be optimised. This question is getting out of business and if it wants to have a line for the the hands of the railway authorities and every development of this area, this construction of day some disturbances are being created by Diva Mangalore line should be taken up by the commuters who travel by rail. Therefore, the Government on top priority basis because this should be given high priority. With these there has been a persistant demand for years words I finish. together and, therefore, more funds should be provided for l he construction of this railway THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI JAG- line. DISH PRASAD MATHUR) : Minister.

SHRI L. MAHAPATRAO : Before the Secondly. Sir, I do not understand why this Minister replies, just one point of clarifica- line has been taken up for construction by the tion. Railways. The hon. Minister should know that this Diva-Manpada line ?oes to Bassien. What is the use of it ? I THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI JAG- DISH PRASAD MATHUR) : You have already spoken. 139 Appropriation (Railways) [RAJYA SABHA] Bills, 1975 140

SHRI L. MAHAPATRAO : Sir, you must SHRI MOHD. SHAFI QURESHI: Hon. have heard, while replying to the general Members have the right to criticise the func- discussion on the Railway Budget, the tioning of the Government and nobody is Minister said that all the trains which have above this hon. House, but hardly any been stopped would be restored. Now, the suggestion has been made by any Member as information coming from the South Eastern to how to improve this system. It is not a new Railway is that they are going to stop some system. It is a very old system. It has been trains which are now running. How is it tried and successfully so far. Only one very reconciled ? interesting suggestion has come from my esteemed colleague, Mr. Khurshed Alam Khan. He says the Railway Board Members THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI JAG- should be asked to lead the fiction book by DISH PRASAD MATHUR) : He is Shaukat Thanvi. If 1 switch over to fiction going to reply to that. reading and the Railway Board Members get involved in it, there will be more fiction reading in the Railway Board and less friction between the wheels and the rail, which is very important for this country. So, I hope the means not 'fiction' but 'friction' on the Railways.

There have been many complaints and SHRI MOHD. SHAFI QURESHI: Sir, I am suggestions by hon. Members that we should grateful to the hon. Members who have start new railway lines in under-developed participated in this debate. It has been a very areas and in certain areas which are already interesting debate and some very valuable developed. There are no two opinions on this. suggestions have been put forward by them. It is our effort and it will continue to be our Various local matters which were raised effort to develop the railway system earlier during the Budget Debate were replied throughout the country. One aspect which I to by the Minister. Whatever local problems have noticed is there is a certain amount of hon. Members have tried to raise in the House misgiving. Some hon. Members feel that the will have to be examined and a reply will be development of railways is taken up on a sent to hon. Members. regional or provincial basis. This is not the case. The development of railways or the expansion of railways is always considered Normally every good thing in our country from the broader economic point of view, i.e., starts in the name of God or in the name of considering the overall economic Allah Parmatma. whatever you may call Him, development of the country. At present we and normally I have seen that the debate on have got about 28 railway lines under the Railways starts in the name of the Railway construction which would need about Rs. 320 Board which according to some hon. crores when we complete them. Members, is all-pervading or all-prevailing ... If we analyse the distribution of these lines, SHRI HAMID ALI SCHAMNAD: Next to no provincial or linguistic or any other God. consideration has been kept in mind except that of the overall development of the railway SHRI MOHD. SHAFI QURESHI: That is system in the country. Speaking of the your idea, but mine is entirely different. development of the railways, some hon. Members said that possibly we are thinking of SHRI VISHWANATH A MENON: They giving up further expansion of the railways. think they are God. That is the difficulty. Tt is not a correct assessment of the situation. The idea is to have 141 Appropriation {Railways) [22 MAR. 1975] Bills, 1975 142 coordination among rail transport, road for their industrial development, for their transport and sea transport because after all, agricultural development, for their educational we have got all these systems available in our facilities, for their medical facilities, for their country. I should say, it is a complementary transport development. So far we have system which we have to develop in this surveyed about 3400 km. including those in country rather than a competitive system this particular region. If these railway lines are After all, all the systems oelong to the State. to be taken up. the cost of construction would So, one has to think like that. It is not a be about Rs, 700 crores. So, it is for the State question of discouraging passenger traffic and Governments concerned in the region to increasing freight traffic. Of course, we will decide upon the priorities, whether they would also try to cany as much freight as we can. like to give priority to rail transport or to The question is, if passengers can travel very health or to educational facilities or to the comfortably and speedily and at much lesser development of industry. On our part, we are rates b) load transport, we should have no only to carry out certain obligations which grudge and we should try to encourage that. naturally are given to us by the State The Railways are doing that. We are paying Governments and by hon. Members here. So, money to the different States to develop road it is not that we are shirking to take up new transport. Whatever system is to be developed railway lines. It is only a question of resources. in this country, it has to be complementary Once the resources are available, certainly and not competitive, as I have said earlier. these areas u/'ll be opened up by rail transport, and I hope that hon. Members will bear with So far as these 28 lines are concerned, we me and they will support us in this matter that have spent about Rs. 136 crores. Another Rs. we should get more funds for constructing 184 crores are to be spent on the lines which certain railway lines which are very important. we have already taken up in hand. I am not For instance, an hon. Member has referred to criticising any wing of the Government of the point about the Apta-Manga-lore line anybody in particular. But, unfortunately, the which will open up the entire West Coast of financial position is such that we do not have the country and link up that region. 1 think enough money even to complete the existing you. Sir. said about Kanyakumari being linked railway lines. So, our effort has always been, with Kashmir. It is our pleasure if we can get first of all, to generate our own resources and these two areas linked. I have already said also if possible, we will try to get more money to that to link Kanyakumari with Kashmir is not complete these old lines and also to develop a only a transport feat, but it is also an emotional new infrastructure in the various parts of the link because we have linked Parvati with country. Shiva. We tire looking at this problem from a national integration point of view also, and Some hon. Members talked about the there is no regional consideration in the development of the backward areas. It is true development of railways. Sir. the Minister in that these areas have to be opened up and the his Budget statement said that we are at the old concept of the colonial times that the end of the tunnel. We are verv hopeful that bad areas should first be developed and then the times are pone and eood times are coming. railways have to go there, has to be given up. When 1 lefer to bad1 times, some of the The railways have to be developed and they hon'ble Members would possibly feel that T have to go to those places as basic am referring to the strike It was one nf the infrastructure. T hope hon. Members will fac'ors which hampered the progress of the agree. railway operation. But there were other Now what is hapneninq is. Rs. 500 crores factors is the monev which has been ujven for the development of the eastern region.

143 Appropriation (Railways) [RAJYA SABHA) Mis. 1975 144

[Shri Mohd. Shafi QureshiJ have been saying for long, one union in one also. The general law and order situation in industry. But I would like to know the certain States and minor irritants created by feelings of the hon'ble Members in this House certain local elements and agitations were whether they would like the offices of the really factors which hampered the progress of railway unions to be manned by persons who the Indian railways. All these factors are not holding any office in any political combined altogether created very serious party. If that is accepted we are prepared to go problems for our operations. But, Sir, we are into that also. After all, what do we want? We really at the end of the tunnel and given this want in the railways a system of cooperation co-operation from the hon'ble Members who and co-ordination, a svstem of involvement, a are l.liking so much about labour relations the system of belonging, and for that our minds railways will be out of the tunnel. I do not are very open. deny that on a vast transport system like the Indian Railways there must be cordial Mr. Khumbhare said that discrimination is relations between the labour and the practised so far as scheduled castes and management. A vast system like the railway scheduled tribes are concerned. 1 must, in the system cannot run by sermons or by chits or first instance, make it very clear and must circulars. It has to run by involvement of the congratulate the employees, more especially, people, involvement of the employees, . icht the Scheduled Caste employees because a from the Ministers, from the top to the very small numbei of Scheduled caste gangmen. With this idea we are trying to employees participated in the strike. I can improve the very phase of the railway assure the hon'ble Member if he can bring a operations. But the hon'ble Member Mr. single case of discrimination against the Menon. says that I was rewarded because I scheduled caste and scheduled tribes was very harsh to the employees. I am sorry employees I shall certainly look into it and this is not correct. It has nothing to do with see that if anything is done on the basis of my promotion and nothing to do with my prejudice I shall certainly be very severe with elevation. Sir, the only thing is that such a that particular officer who has beep, dealing situation was created by certain interested with him. elements in the country who never wanted While I am on the question of scheduled anything good for the railway employees. castes and scheduled tribes problem, we have When I talk of interested elements. I cerlainly created a special cell in the railways which am referring to the Unions also because two is being looked after by my colleague, Shri unions have been recognised on the Indian Bata Singh. Shri Buta Singh was the Railways. We hope that we shall get full co- Chairman of the Scheduled Castes and operation from these two unions. I hope they Scheduled Tribes Parliamentary Committee. will also consider that the railways, after all, He has been given absolutely full freedom by are our national asset and as Mr. Khnrshed my senior colleague. Mr. Tripathi. and he Tias Alam Khan said, it is the world's fourth my full support to deal with this problem largest enterprise or system and Asia's effectively and expeditiously. And I am sure biggest system. that he will do it. T am sorrv to point out Sir, the railways do not become big because certain figures which are -not very its assets are big. Its bigness will be judged, encouraging, which are rather a sad its greatness will be iudg-' ed by its commentary on what we have been doing for achievement, and1 that achievement can only the down-trodden people in this country. Sir, come when there are cordial relations between in Class 1 and Class 11 services, the the labour and the management and the representation of the Scheduled Castes is authorities concerned. We are now trying hardly 4.3 per cent. Tn class TH. it is 9.1 per to have, as we cent. It is 17.7 per cent in Class 145 Ap/r/pridian (Railways) [22 MAR. 1975] Bills. 1975 146

IV, and 90 per cent in safaiwalas, bin that does not we can do it because we want to make some satisfy us. 1 accept the hon. Members' suggestion progress in this particular iield. that we have to give this representation in each category and see that they get opportunities or go- Hon. Members would appreciate that the ing up to the highest posts in the administration. operations of the Railways have improved considerably. And this improving trend has to be Then, it is also a fact that the minorities in this kept up. I am sure that with the proper utilisation of country have a right to demand their right, as has the a\ ail-able assets, we can improve the efficiency. been pointed out oy Mr. Schamnad. But I must As was pointed out by Mr. Klmrshed Alam Khan, assure him that it is not the Muslim League alone the Railways' efficiency can improve only by which has become the custodian of the rights of the optimum utilisation of the available assets. It is a Muslim in this country. Our party has the privilege cardinal principle in every industry that unless the and the glorious heritage . . . available resources or assets or rolling stock are put to optimum utilisation, we shall certainly be not SHRI HAMID ALI SCHAMNAD : I did not say doing our best. So we are concentrating on this that. ,By all means you do it. But we have a right to particular issue. I am mentioning this because this cry for those people. You can take the credit. Let issue is linked with maintenance. Our backlog of the benefit go to the Muslim masses. maintenance of wagons has been ralhei very heavy. And the periodic overhaul which should normally SHRI MOHD. SHAFI QURESHI : ... of having have been done w i t h i n a specified period has not the most prominent luminaries of the Muslim been done. Now we are launching special drives to community in it. Sir, it is true that Muslims have see that this backlog is cleared, and in future our not been given their proper share so far in the maintenance of locos or wagons or coaches is kept Railways. But it will be our endeavour and we—my at the top level. senior colleague, myseif and Mr. Bnla Singh—arc all getting together to see that each community is This brings me to the amenities of the passengers given proper representation. They do not have any or the travelling public. It is true that during summer representation constitutionally, but justice must be we do not find fans, we do not find water, we do not given to those communities also. It will he done find lights in the compartments. As a carrier, it is my certainly, and instructions have been issued to the job and my responsibility to provide all comforts and various Railway Service Commissions that they facilities to the travelling public. But, Sir, it is a two- should try to advertise the posts in local way traffic. As hon. Members know, the efficiency newspapers. in Urdu newspapers or in the local lan- of the Railways depends upon the proper use by the guage newspapers, so that more people from customer also. If my customer makes proper use of different areas are attracted. the coaches and the facilities which I give him. certainly I can go on improving it. But we have seen SHRT B. RACHAIAH: Why not All India in certain areas which have been now very well Radio? identified—I am not talking about the entire country--that whatever be the speed at which we go SHRI MOHD. SHAFI QURESHI : We shall try on p ro v i d in g these amenities and facilities. J with to canvass the support of my colleague, Mr. Gujral. greater speed and the anti-social ! elements go on But it seems that there are certain difficulties. I am removing those things. This has been our problem. sure that he will overcome those difficulties. If it is And. Sir. the honourable Members would know that a question of paving a little money to the All Tndia Radio, certainly 147 Appropriation (Railways) [RAJ YA SAB HA] Bills, 1975 148

LShri Mohd. Shaft Qureshi] tain cases—I am not concealing anything even a whole fan is being removed, not for the trom the House—even scooters, not one or sake of stealing it, but just for the sake of two, but five or ten scooters are taken out of selling a small component, say, some copper the wagons and they are being sold in the or zinc or whatever it is, and this is being open market. So, unless some deterrent action pilfered and the other things are thrown away. is taken against the possesses of the railway So, in these cases, as the normal procedure property. I do not think that we shall have requires, the areas are being identified, raids much success in this drive. So, Sir, we have are conducted and the culprits are caught. But, taken a deliberate decision to detain people now, Sir we are thinking of launching a very under tnc MISA from whose possession the special drive against these thefts and against railway property is recovered. In this, Sir, we these pilferages, against these thieves and are seeking the co-operation of the State these pilferers. Recently, unfortunately, a few Governments and with the assistance given by cases have come to our notice in which our the State Governments, wherever we have own employees were involved in victimising launched this drive, it has borne results. For and breaking the wagons and commiting these instance, Sir, in Han ana. it has borne results. thefts. Sir, this needs the co-operation of the So, we nope to do the same thing in other State Governments and may be that to a areas also. certain extent some amendments in the Railway Property (Unlawful Possession) Act Sir, in certain areas some people have been are necessary because. Sir, under this Act, we arrested. But, Sir, what is required is that we have got only the powers to go and search the have to develop a \cry powerful intelligence premises of a person where we suspect that cell in the Indian Railways. We have got our the railway property has been kept and then own Crime Bureau. But this Crime Bureau the prosecution is launched. Now. we may possibly need the assistance- of the C1D personally feel that in these identified areas, or the CBI and for that, Sir, I think my friend, where these pilferages and these thefts take Shri Om Mehta, who is here, will help us and place, they have been increasing over a period I hope he will be able to help us because the of years and it is because there is an attraction thefts which are being committed, it is for these thieves to steal. There are factories difficult to localise them . . . round about and there are factories near the SHRI OM MEHTA : I will try to do the cities or towns and some small-scale needful, Sir. industries are there where there are ready buyers for all the components and materials SHRI MOHD. SHAFI QURESHI : We do which are being stolen from the railways. not know whether it starts at the loading end; Then, the pattern and style of theft also vary. we do not know whether it is committed on If there is a shortage of steel, we find that steel the route ; and we do not know whether it is is being pilfered. Tf there is a shortage of done at the sheds or at the transhipment areas. edible oil, but steel is available, then steel is So, all these things will have to be looked into safe, but the thieves go on diverting their and for this we have to develop a powerful attention from steel to the edible oils. Now, intelligence system and we hope that we shall Sir, somebody said something about the RPF be able to meet this menace then. and it is a pertinent point. And, Sir, this is our difficulty also. In the case of the RPF, it is not Sir, we are also appointing a Committee, as that all the RPF men are bad. It is not like that. was suggested by some of the honoui-able But there are certain people living in certain Members here, a sort of a Special Cell. It may areas who are backed by some outsiders, these not be a Cell like that, but it will be a thieves and others. In cer- Committee appointed by the Railways themselves, headed by an 149 Appropriation (Railways) [22 MAR. I975| Bills, 1975 150

ex-railway man who has been in the i Traffic which the local people like the MLAs and Department and who knows the ins and outs of other responsible people would be associ- the railways and he will help us and he will ated. They will go in the zones and check submit his report and his findings and then we restaurants. I think . . . shall see that these are implemented and this menace of thefts and pilferages, if not completely SHRI N. H. KUMBHARE (Maharashtra) : eliminated, is at least minimised to a con- Will Members of Parliament be associated siderable extent on the Railways. with this committee 7 SHRI MOHD. SHAFI QURESHI . SHRI K. N. DHULAP : In the courts it has Certainly. Why not 7 been mentioned by the people that the railway property has been purchased only in auctions. 1 think by reintroducing that system, we Whatever property is recovered from the may be able to have some improvement in culprits, the culprits say in the court, they were this field also. bought in the auction. Then, we have received complaints that a large number of beggars enter the platforms and also SHRI MOHD. SHAFI QURESHI : the trains. Here, again, we are proposing to take These are some of the lacunae which we find in the help of the Railway Protection Force. The the law itself because it is very difficult to RPF as such, under the existing law, has only locale these things. For instance, in certain to look after the railway property. When it is places, we caught certain people who had about told to them that they should stop the menace of 50 bags of wheat. Now, it is very difficult to beggars going into the platforms and into the say whether this wheat was carried by the trains, they do not have the powers to arrest Railways or this was the wheat which was them and take them away somewhere. The already sold in the market. GRP—I should not say anything about it - But the thing is that we have to A also needs some sort of definite P.M. organise all this system in a improvements in its functioning. Complaints way that we are able to nip the evil in come only from a few places--not from all the bud, and I am sure that with concerted places. We have to take preventive action efforts we shall be able to achieve certain against the menace of beggars on the railway results. premises . .. (Interruptions)

Then, another facility which the hon. Once they are taken to beggars' homes and Member has talked about Is catering. Good once they are released from that place. the only food is not being served in the Indian other place they find convenient is the railway Railways, they said. There are certain units station and they come back to railway stations. which are being run by the Railways; others are being run by private parties. I will now come to matters pertaining to our Hon. Members normally travel by trains staff. Hon Members know it very well because and they are the best critics and best we have been issuing small booklets to hon. judges as to what type of food is being Members for their study. The question of served on the Railways. Of late, we have improving the working conditions of our received complaints that food served on employees is receiving the constant attention of certain trains is not good. So, Sir, here the entire Department. The 'Miabhoy' award, again we will have to go into details and see which was recently announced, we are going to that definite improvements are made. We implement. We have accepted it. It would mean are now thinking of reintroducing an old another Rs. 40 crores of additional expenditure system. We had a system of having catering for the Railways. But we are doing- committees in various zones with '151 Appropriation (Railways) [RAJ YA S ABHA] Bills, 19 ?5 152

[Shri Mohd. Shafi Qureshi] SHRI L. MAHAPATRO : What I said is it with pleasure; not that we have :iny grouse different. Whatever proposals the workers give about it. We are doing this for our own you for improving your resources or for people. increasing your income, are you prepared to consider them? Then we have got the Third Pay Com- SHRI MOHD. SHAFI QURESHI : We mission recommendations and the anomalies are prepared to discuss. When I was having a which have wept up because of its Report discussion with the labour unions, I told them and the upgradation proposals. This would that it is beter that we do not have the problems. really mean about Rs. 219 crores extra Let us keep the problems on one side and let us expenditure for the Railways. sit on one side. They could give me their suggestion as in how to improve the Sir, so far as the children of our em- functioning of the railways. ployees are concerned, hon. Members know that we are running about 375 schools and There has been a persistent demand we are spending about Rs. 3.1 crores on the from the hon. Members coming from South that education of railway employees' children. there is no direct link between Madras and Then, we are reimbursing them, so far as fees Delhi. It is our policy and we stand by it that are concerned in the middle schools, high all State capitals should be linked with Delhi by Rajdhani. As you know, it needs schools and higher secondary schools And improving the tracks. There may be some that reimbursement comes to about Rs. 1.19 financial difficulties also. Till such time, I crores. would suggest that there will be one special per week from Delhi to Madras and one per Then, we are having about 14 subsidized week from Madras to Delhi. It will be a direct hostels and we are running some holiday train. In all 13 special trains will run from homes where the children of our Class III and Madras to Delhi during the coming summer IV employees stay when they go around and season. Similarly, there will be 13 special have some sort of recreation. trains from Delhi to Madras. Stoppages In 20 years' time, the number of beds in could be reduced by half. Normally, the Jayanti railway hospitals has increased from 2000 to Janata stops at 10 places. This special 10,500. We are spending a large amount. Rs. train will stop at 5 places only. We art- 23 crores, on medical facilities to railway working it out. For instance, if the train men. And we we prepared to do more. But the starts from Delhi at 4.00 P.M., dinner time hon. Members there who are championing the would be at Agra, morning breakfast at cause of workers would also like us to earn ftarsi. mid-day meal at Nagpur, tea or more, so that we can spend more. And I am evening meal at Balarshah and then the sure that we shall have the support of hon. train will stop at Madras. Similar facilities are Members in this particular direction. being provided on Bombay-Cochin route. Bombay-Cochin Holiday Special will run Sir, I have covered almost all the points. twice a week. The first 'special' will run on 16th of April and a total of 17 specials will SHRI L. MAHAPATRO : Are you prepared run in each direction. This will give a to give due consideration to the proposals that direct train from Madras to Delhi twice a the workers give you? week, once from this side and once from the other side. It is also proposed to introduce a SHRI MOHD. SHAFI QURESHI : Cer- weekly Jayanti Janata train from May 1975 tainly. Sir, this is a very strange logic. If we between Hyderabad and New Delhi. have not given any attention to the workers* Subsequently, the frequency will be problems, how is it that out of 16000 people increased to bi-weekly. This is the good news whose services were terminated, 14000 have which I am giving to the hon. Members. been taken back? 153 Appropriation (Railways) [22 MAR. 1975] Bills, 1975 154

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI JAGDISH now take up clause by clause considerations of the PRASAD MATHUR) : The question is : Bill.

"That the Bill to authorise payment and Clauses 2 and 3 and the Schedule were-added appropriation of certain sums from and out of the to the Bill. Consolidated Fund of I n d i a for the services of the financial year 1975-76 for the purposes of Clause 1, the Enacting Formula and the Title Railways, as passed by the Lok Sabha be taken Mere added to the Bill. into consideration.". SHRI MOHD. SHAFI QURESHI : Sir I move : The motion was adopted. "That the Bill be returned". SHRI L. MAHAPATRO : I have not The question was put and the motion was got even a single reply. I want a catego adopted. rical reply that all the persons will be taken back. THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI JAGDISH PRASAD MATHUR) : The question is : THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI JAGDISH PRASAD MATHUR} : He has replied. You draw "That the Bill to authorise payment and your own conclusions. appropriation of certain further sums from and out of the Consolidated Fund of India for the SHRI L. MAHAPATRO : It is an important services of the financial year 1974-75 for the pur- matter. poses of Railways, as passed by the Lok Sabha. be taken into consideration." THE VICE-CHAIRMAN : What he has to say, he has already said. Have you anything to add, Mr. Minister? The motion was adopted. THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI JAGDISH SHRI MOHD. SHAFI QURESHI : I have PRASAD MATHUR) : We shall now take up already said that except those people , v. ho are clause by clause consideration of the Bill. involved in violence including intimidation and sabotage, everybody will be taken back. Clauses 1 and 3, and the Schedule were added to the Bill. SHRI L. MAHAPATRO : Within what time because the bosses are not employing them ? That Clause 1, the Enacting Formula and the Title is what I say. were added to the Bill. SHRI MOHD. SHAFI QURESHI : Sir, I move : SHRI MOHD. SHAFI QURESHI : Sir, 1 do not remember whether I said here or in the other House '"That the Bill be returned.". but I have said that there are certain charges against The question was put and the motion was certain employees. They have to be given a chance to adopted. defend themselves. I cannot offhand say that they will be taken in five days or ten days. They must THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI JAGDISH have their say. We must prove our case. If the courts PRASAD MATHUR): The question is : release them, we shall take them back as soon as "That the Bill to provide for the authorisation their | cases are over, or the appeals for that mat- ! of appropriation of moneys out of the ter. Consolidated Fund of India to meet the amounts spent on certain services for the purposes of THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI JAGDISH Railways PRASAD MATHUR) ; We shall I 155 Appropriation (Railways) [RAJYA SABHA] Bilk, 1975 156

[Shri Jagdish Prasad Mathur] hours, then why does it take 7 to 7 12 hours in during the financial year ended on the 31st the case of the Utkal Express? Is it because it day of March, 1973, in excess of the comes from Orissa? We have be^en amounts granted for these services and tor demanding for the last four or tive years that that year, as passed by the Lok Sabha, be the running time of this train may be reduced taken into consideration.'* but no heed has been paid to it. I hope some heed would be paid now or else Orissa people The morion was adopted. will have to start an agitation for this purpose. THE VICE-CHAIRMAN : We shall now take up clause by clause consideration or the SHRI L. MAHAPATRO (Orissa) : Sir, I Bill. want to ask one question. We have heard the gladdening news that the Railway Minister Clauses 2 and 3, and the Schedule were gave in his reply on the general discussion on .added to the Bill. the Railways to the effect that no train which had been skipped earlier would remain Clause 1, the Enacting Formula and the cancelled and that every effort would be made Title were added to the Bill. by them to have them restored. But, now one disheartening nous has come from my State SHRI MOHD. SHAFI QURESHI : Sir, i that the South-Eastern Railway authorities move : have made an announcement that they will be stopping some trains which are now running. "That the Bill be returned.". This does not fit in with the earlier reply of The question was proposed. the Railway Minister. I want this point to be clarified. If the hon. Minister dees not know SHRI LOKANATH MISRA (Orissa) : Sir, the position just now, let him have it when 1 spoke during the debate on the Bill, [ examined and let him give a direction that had brought to the notice of the hon. Minister whichever train is now plying, running on the the exploitation that is taking place so far as rails, that would not be stopped. It seems that eastern India is concerned by some other their intention is to get on the rails those trains regions of the country in regard to this freight which have earlier been stopped. Therefore, in the context of the Minister's declaration, this structure. I hope the hon. Minister would give declaration by the officials in the South-Eas- some attention to this. I never expected a reply tcrn Railway that they will be stopping some from them because that would be a policy trains which connect Andhra Pradesh and decision which should be taken after a dis- Orissa, after Shri Brahmananda Reddyji goes cussion in the Ministry itself, and with the out of office, is something very bad. Railway Board, if necessary. But this ex- ploitation should not be allowed to go on. SHRI MOHD. SHAFI QURESHI : Sir, with regard to the point raised by I would like The other point which I raised and for to clarify that freight equalisation has got which there is no reply at all and which we nothing to do with the Railways. It is the have been hammering for years is the time Ministry of Steel which fixes the rates because that the Utkal Express takes. For a distance of they sale steel in all parts of the country at the about 1200 miles, it takes from 54 to 58 same rate. In regard to coal and other hours. commodities to which he has referred, no discrimination is being practised by the Between Agra and New Delhi the Utkal Railways. Express takes more than seven hours; for any other train it takes only 2-1/2 hours or 3 hours. SHRI LOKANATH MISRA : Perhaps, I In every case of mail or express train the was not able to make him understand. What I distance between Agra and New Delhi can be said is that in the case of coal we covered in less than 3 157 Appropriation (R-Mlwny.s) V-l MAR. 1975] Bills, 1915 158 are sending it out of the pit-heads and you With regard to the cancelled trains, I would charge Rs. 41 per tonne and in return when we like to inform the hon. Member that as on get things which we need lo use in Orissa like today, i.e.. 15-3-1975, only 199 lrains remain oilseeds or cotton or other things, those items cancelled and as has been stated in the have been charged almost at twice the freight Minister's statement in his Budget Speech, charges for coal and that is how they are and I have also read the same thing in this exploited. House, gradual restoration of these trains has already started and all the cancelled trains will be restored in a period of two months. SHRI MOHD. SHAFI QURESHI : THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI JAGDISH Sir, he has talked about telescopic rates. I personally feel that although he has un- PRASAD MATHUR) : What about the query derstood it, he needs more clarification. I shall of.Shri Om Mehta about a Deluxe train to send him a detailed reply. If he has got any .lammu? doubts about it later on, certainly we can SHRI MOHD. SHAFI QURESHI : Sir, I discuss it. will get it examined. SHRI L. MAHAPATRO : Sir, what about We have entered into an agreement with the my question that trains now running are Wheelers but there is nothing to stop the being cancelled. Government from taking over as and when they find that their services are not THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI JAGDISH satisfactory. The minds of hon. Members have PRASAD MATHUR): The question is : been exercised because they feel that we are •That the Bill be returned." developing a monopoly. It is not a fact. We have already asked them to surrender certain The motion was adopted. bookstalls which we are giving to unemployed graduates but the response from the other side has been rather very poor. Sir, with regard to the Utkal Express, I think, I will have to get it checked up. There The House then adjourned at may be something about the terminal capacity twenty minutes past six of the clock which may not be available or there may be till eleven of the clock on Monday, en route difficulties. This will have to be the 24th March, 1975. examined and I will send you a reply.

MGIPRRND-V-7 RSS/75-4-6-75-595.