العزائم والشيعة .. حوار مع شيخ الطريقة العزمية عن عالقته بإيران والشيعة متميز كتب بواسطة الطريقة العزمية نشرت فى بيانات وردود الجمعة, 51 آذار/مارس 3152 35:52

نظرا لما أثير حول عالقة السيد عالء الدين ماضى أبو العزائم شيخ الطريقة العزمية ورئيس الرابطة المصرية عن عالقته بإيران ، واتهامه بأنه يمثل بوابة التشيع فى مصر ، كان لموقع اإلسالم وطن هذا الحوار مع سماحته لتتبين الحقائق ، بعيدا عن التحليالت والتأويالت ..

لماذا ينتشر بين الناس أنكم بوابة التشيع فى مصر ؟! أود فى البداية أن أبين أن هؤالء الذين يروجون لهذا الكالم يالحظ أنهم حيثما جلسوا وفى أى قناة فضائية ظهروا ال يتحدثون إال عن عدة أمور ال تتغير ، منها تكفير الصوفية ، اتهام الصوفية بأنهم يعبدون األضرحة ، ترويج أن التصوف أشد خطرا على اإلسالم من اليهود ، والشيعة أيضا كفار ، وهم أشد خطرا على اإلسالم عامة ومصر خاصة من إسرائيل! إلى غير هذه العناوين التى ال يغيرونها . فال تجد أحدهم جلس مجلسا أو ظهر على أى قناة فضائية ، فتحدث عن أزمة المسلمين فى مالى أو الصومال أو شمال أفريقيا ، وال يتطرق إلى مآسى األقليات المسلمة فى الهند أو الدول الغير مسلمة ، وال تجدهم يتحدثون عن مواالة المسلمين للكافرين ، وال يتحدثون مطلقا عن القوات األمريكية مثال التى تسكن بالد المسلمين . وال يتكلمون عن مأساة تقسيم دولة السودان المسلمة إلى شمال وجنوب . كل هذه القضايا ال يطرقونها من قريب أو بعيد ، وهذا يدل على أن هؤالء يروجون تلك اإلشاعات واألكاذيب لخدمة طرف آخر . هذا الطرف هو صاحب المصلحة من وراء ذلك .

ما هى حقيقة الشيعة فى إيران ، وهل هم مسلمون؟!

هناك خطأ كبير يقع فيه الذين يتحدثون عن الشيعة ، فالشيعة ليست فرقة واحدة ، بل فرق متعددة ، يطلق عليهم جميعا مصطلح الشيعة ، أما الشعب اإليرانى فيتبع المذهب الجعفرى الذى وضعه اإلمام جعفر الصادق ، واإلمام جعفر الصادق هو معلم اإلمام أبو حنيفة ، واإلمام مالك ، واإلمام الشافعى تلميذ اإلمام مالك ، وبالتالى فإن مذاهب أهل السنة تعود فى النهاية على اختالف مسائلها الفرعية إلى مذهب اإلمام جعفر الصادق بطريق غير مباشر . وعليه فاألحرى أن نقول عن اإليرانين أنهم جعفرية ، مثلما نقول عن أهل مصر أنهم شافعية ، ونقول عن أهل المغرب أنهم مالكية ، فال مانع أن نقول عن أهل إيران أنهم جعفرية .. وهكذا ، ويأتى هذا التقسيم المذهبى فى إطار المسائل الفقهية فقط ، لكن هذا التقسيم ليس له عالقة بالسياسة . أما الذين يرددون عن الشيعة أنهم يسبون الصحابة ، وعندهم قرآن يخالف القرآن الكريم ، فهو تدليس متعمد هدفة التفرقة بين السنة والشيعة خدمة للمصالح األمريكية واإلسرائيلية فى المنطقة اإلسالمية .

ما حقيقة ما تردد عن دعمكم للمد الشيعى فى مصر؟ أريد أن أسأل الذين صدعوا رؤوسنا بالمد الشيعى أين أنتم من المد الصهيونى الذى يتم تحت عنوان )أرض الميعاد( ، وفى سبيل تحقيقه تنفق الماليين ويجند اآلالف من الرجال فى الداخل والخارج ، وتخزن األسلحة على الحدود المصرية فى انتظار اللحظة الحاسمة ؟! وماذا قلتم عن المد القطرى على يد اإلخوان المسلمين؟! وماذا كتبتم عن المد الوهابى على يد اإلخوان والسلفية ؟! إن هؤالء الذين يشنعون على إيران ويتهمون كل من يحاول االقتراب منها بالعمل على المد الشيعى ، يغطون على أنواع أخرى من المدود الصامتة ، التى يعملون على إثارة األباطيل يمينا ويسارا لتستمر فى صمت!! كما أسأل هؤالء الذين يكفرون إيران ، ويطالبون بمقاطعتها بحجة المد الشيعى : مصر لها عالقات قوية بأمريكا قبل اإلخوان وفى حكمهم أيضا ، ومصر مسلمة وأمريكا مسيحية ، لماذا لم تقولوا شيئا عن المد المسيحى؟! وهل يا ترى إذا قامت عالقات تجارية بين مصر والهند سنسمع منكم الخوف من المد الهندوسى؟!

يعتبر البعض سفركم إلى إيران يهدف إلى المد الشيعى فى مصر؟! أنا أيضا أذهب إلى أمريكا فهل معنى هذا أنى أدعم المشروع األمريكى للسيطرة على العالم اإلسالمى؟! وأذهب إلى فرنسا ، وأذهب إلى غيرها من البلدان ، فهل كل دولة أسافر إليها أعمل على المد الخاص بها ؟! وإذا كان السفر إلى إيران دليل على العمل على المد الشيعى ، فقد ذهب الكثير من علماء ومشايخ األزهر واألوقاف إلى إيران ، كما ذهب وفد شعبى مصرى يضم الكتاب واإلعالميين ورجال الفكر والسياسة ، وكان ضمن هذا الوفد أعضاء من جماعة اإلخوان المسلمين . لماذا لم يقل أحد عنهم أنهم يعملون على المد الشيعى ؟! لكننى أسأل الذين يتحدثون عن سفرى إليران : لماذا لم تتحدثوا عن الذين يسافرون إلى إسرائيل؟! لماذا لم تتحدثوا عمن يطبع العالقات معها ؟! لماذا لم تشنعوا على من يعلن والئه إلسرائيل ويدعو إلى عالقة طيبة معها مثل الكاتب على سالم الذى أجرى حوارا مع طونى خليفة مؤكدا عالقته بإسرائيل على المأل . ترى ماذا قالوا عنه؟! ترى لماذا لم يشنع هؤالء على عصام العريان الذى دعى اليهود للعودة إلى مصر متجاهال أبناء الشعب المصرى المغتربين من أجل لقمة العيش ، لماذا لم يطالب أبناء مصر بالعودة إلى ديارهم والعمل على بناء مشروعات قومية تستوعبهم؟! لماذا لم يقولوا عن عصام العريان أنه يدعو للمد الصهيونى؟! إن شعار المد الشيعى أكذوبة صنعتها أمريكا وإسرائيل وروج لها المتأسلمون ، والهدف قطع العالقات مع دولة إسالمية قوية مثل إيران ، ألن اتحادهما يعنى تهديد إسرائيل .

ما هى حقيقة ما تردد عن تلقيكم تمويال من إيران؟

الذين يتحدثون عن التمويل اإليرانى )المزعوم( ليس لديهم أى دليل على هذا القول ، وقولهم بغير َ دليل مخالفة شرعية ، لقوله تعالى : ) يَا أي َها الَّ ِذي َن آ َم ُنوا ا ْج َتنِ ُبوا َكثِي ًرا ِ م َن الظَّ ِ ن إِ َّن بَ ْع َض الظَّ ِ ن إِ ْث ٌم( وأقول لهؤالء : إننا حتى اآلن ال نستطيع بث قناة فضائية ، بينما يمتلك المتأسلمون عشرات القنوات!! وأنشأنا حزبا واحدا وال توجد له مقرات كافية لتغطية محافظات الجمهورية . بينما المتأسلمون أنشأوا عدة أحزاب ولها مقرات منتشرة على مستوى الجمهورية ، وعلى أعلى مستوى وفى أفخم األماكن!! فمن منا يتلقى تمويال؟! كما أريد أن أسألهم : أين أنتم من تلقى التمويل من قطر عالنية فى صورة ودائع بنكية؟! وأين هم من تصريحات القرضاوى بأن قطر ستدفع 31 مليار دوالر لمصر بعد نجاح االستفتاء!! أليس هذا تمويال فى عز الظهر؟! أين موقفكم من هذا السيل المنهمر من الرياالت السعودية التى تنهال على السلفيين واإلخوانيين أيضا ، فتظهر فى صورة جمعيات ومساجد وحضانات وغير ذلك ، ومن ورائها طباعة الكتب الوهابية بأفخم أنواع الطباعة! لماذا تذهب إذن إلى إيران؟! إيران تعقد العديد من المؤتمرات لوحدة األمة اإلسالمية ، وأحرص دائما على حضور مثل هذه المؤتمرات أينما عقدت ، فإن أكثر ما يهمنى هو جمع كلمة هذه األمة ، فإذا دعيت لمؤتمر يعمل على جمع كلمة األمة فلن أتوانى عن المشاركة فيه . ولست أذهب لهذه المؤتمرات وحدى بل يذهب إليها علماء من األزهر ، وبعض الكتاب والمثقفين واإلعالميين أيضا .

ما رأيكم فى سب الشيعة للصحابة والسيدة عائشة ؟

الذين يروجون لهذا الموضوع يتعمدون تشويه الكثير من الحقائق ، فليس كل من ينتسبون للشيعة يسبون الصحابة ، وأقل دليل على هذا هو الكثير من مشايخ األزهر ودعاة األوقاف والقراء المصريين الذين يوفدون إلى إيران فى شهر رمضان لم نسمع أنهم رجعوا يسبون الصحابة!! أضف إلى ذلك الكثير من الفتاوى الشيعية التى يتجاهلها هؤالء المدعون والتى تحرم سب الصحابة على رأسها فتوى السيد على خامنئى . مثل هذه الفتوى لم يروج لها ، والذين يكفرون الشيعة لم يتحدثوا عنها ، ألن العداء إليران أوامر عليا تأتى من أمريكا!! أما بالنسبة لمنهج اإلمام أبو العزائم تجاه الصحابة فهو معروف ال يحتاج إلى برهان ، فاإلمام أبو العزائم لم يمدح الصحابة فقط ، بل توسل بهم إلى هللا ، وفى كتاب )نيل الخيرات( الذى يتضمن األدعية القرآنية والصلوات على سيدنا رسول هللا صلى هللا عليه وآله وسلم ، والذى نقرؤه كل أسبوع فى جلسة الدعاء األسبوعية ، بل ويستحب أن يقرأه المريد كل يوم ، فيه هذا التوسل بالصحابة ، وخاصة الخلفاء الراشدين على الترتيب :

ياسيدى بأبى بكر أجب طلبى ..... وكن مغيثى فسحب الفضل قد هطلت رجوت جاهك الفاروق خذ بيدى ..... يا أكرم الخلق فالراحات قد بسطت إنى استجرت بعثمان وصحبته ..... مستشفعا وبآيات به جمعت وباإلمام أمير المؤمنين علي .... من منه شمس الهدى بالحق قد سطعت

ترى بعد كل هذا التوسل بالصحابة لماذا يستقبلنا اإليرانيون فى بالدهم؟!

على الجانب اآلخر إذا كان هناك من يسب الصحابة فاألولى أن نرشده ال أن نكفره ، وسياسة التكفير ليست إال مؤامرة سياسية من الدرجة األولى . تهدف إلى الهدم ال البناء .

لماذا تتبنون مشروع التقريب بين السنة والشيعة ؟

هناك مؤامرة صهيوأمريكية لتمزيق األمة اإلسالمية إلى فرق وطوائف بعد أن مزقتها بعد سقوط الخالفة اإلسالمية إلى دول متناحرة ، يستمر هذا المخطط لتمزيق العالقة بين المسلم وأخيه المسلم ، ويأتى على قمة هذا المخطط التفرقة بين السنة والشيعة ، حيث إن إيران تمتلك أقوى ترسانة حربية فى المنطقة اإلسالمية ، وهو ما يهدد المشروع الصهيوأمريكى ، وبالتالى فالتفريق بينهما أكبر انتصار لهذا المشروع . عمال بمبدأ فرق تسد . ومن هذا المنطلق فإن واجب الوقت يحتم على علماء األمة ومفكريها الوقوف يدا واحدة لتوحيد األمة اإلسالمية ونبذ الفرقة بين مذاهبها . ومشروع التقريب بين المذاهب ليس وليد اللحظة فلجنة التقريب بين المذاهب اإلسالمية تعمل منذ سنوات عديدة لتوحيد صفوف المسلمين على اختالف معتقداتهم . وقد اتخذ العلماء فى سبيل تحقيق هذه الوحدة الكثير من الخطوات منها : فتوى الشيخ محمود شلتوت فى جواز التعبد بالمذهب الشيعى الجعفرى . ولقد أقر علماء اإلسالم جواز التعبد بالمذاهب الثمانية )الشافعي ، المالكى ، الحنفى ، الحنبلى ، الجعفرى ، اإلباضى ، الزيدى ، والظاهرى( وقد طبع مجمع البحوث اإلسالمية موسوعة الفقه اإلسالمى على هذه المذاهب الثمانية . فهل يستطيع أحد أن يتهم هؤالء بأنهم شيعة؟!

ما رأيكم فى وجود عالقات مصرية إيرانية وما هى نظرتكم إلى تلك القضية ؟

والذين يدعون إلى قطع العالقات مع إيران يعملون لصالح أمريكا وإسرائيل ، والدليل على ذلك أنهم ال يتحدثون عن العالقات مع أمريكا أو إسرائيل ، وليس لهم حديث إال تخويف العامة من السيطرة اإليرانية المزعومة ، متجاهلين عن عمد ذلك المخطط الشيطانى لسيطرة إسرائيل على المنطقة العربية واإلسالمية . ولكى يتم المشروع الصهيونى فى أمان البد من قطع العالقات بين مصر وإيران وأى دولة أخرى . ولكنى أرى أن الدول اإلسالمية جميعا لو توحدت لصارت قوة أمام العدو الصهيوأمريكى ، مع احتفاظ كل دولة بمذاهبها ومعتقداتها ومنهجها فى الحياة ولكن مع نبذ كل أسباب الفرقة ، فاإلسالم ليس دين جبر ، ولكن دين وسعة يحتوى كل المذاهب وكل المناهج وكل األفكار والبد أن يكون الفصل فى كل األمور عائد لمصادر الشريعة كما قال هللا تعالى : )فإن تنازعتم فى شىء فردوه إلى هللا والرسول( . ونحن نقول لمن يسعون فى التفريق بين السنة والشيعة باسم اإلسالم : لماذا توطدون العالقات مع أمريكا وتباركون السالم مع إسرائيل ، وفى نفس الوقت تحرمون العالقات مع إيران؟! لماذا تستوردون األسلحة من أمريكا مع أن هللا تعالى قال )والتأمنوا إال لمن تبع دينكم( على الرغم من أن إيران تصنع الكثير من األسلحة؟! أليس األولى أن نشترى األسلحة بالذات من دولة إسالمية قوية مثل إيران أو تركيا بدال من أن تشترى من العدو؟! لكن الحقيقة أنه إذا حدث ذلك ستصبح مصر وإيران وتركيا قوة فى مواجهة البلطجة األمريكية والمؤامرة الصهيونية . وهذا ما تحارب أمريكا وإسرائيل بكل الطرق حتى ال يحدث!

يبدى البعض قلقا من وجود عالقات مصرية إيرانية خوفا من )المد الشيعى(؟

أريد أن أسأل سؤاال : ماذا لو قدم إلى مصر مجموعة من الهندوس وأقاموا شركة استثمارية واستقدموا هندوسا مثلهم ليعملوا فى هذه الشركة ، هل سيكون هناك تخوف من المد الهندوسى فى مصر؟! ترى ماذا لو حدث هذا مع بعض البوذيين؟! اإلجابة أن التخوف من المد الهنوسى أو البوذى لن يحدث ، ألن اإلسالم دين قوى متين ال يخشى عليه من هذا الهراء! فى المقابل من الممكن أن يقوم علماء اإلسالم بالعمل على نشر اإلسالم بين هؤالء الهندوس وأولئك البوذيين!! نفس القاعدة تنطبق على ما يسمى بالمد الشيعي ، فإعالن التخوف من المد الشيعى يشوه صورة المذهب السنى ، ويعطى انطباعا بأن المذهب السنى ضعيف يخشى عن مواجهة المذهب الشيعى ، وإنى أسأل مشايخ األزهر وعلماؤه : لماذا ال تفكرون فى عمل مد سنى فى إيران؟! أال يستطيع األزهر برجاله وتاريخه العريق أن يحول الشيعة إلى سنة؟! هناك من يقول إن الشيعة أخطر على اإلسالم من اليهود ، فما قولك؟! هذا تكذيب صريح للقرآن ، فقد قال هللا تعالى : )لتجدن أشد الناس عداوة للذين آمنوا اليهود والذين أشركوا( ، أما هؤالء المبطلون فيقولون إن الشيعة مقدمون فى العداء على اليهود!! أليس هذا تكذيب للقرآن وافتراء على هللا؟! ترى ما حكم من يكذب القرآن فى اإلسالم؟!

كلمة أخيرة إلى المتخوفين من إيران :

أقول لهم ولكل مسلم : هؤالء الذين يشيعون هذه األكاذيب يعملون على إشاعة المثالب حول كل دعوة تخالف دعوتهم ، وينالون من مخالفيهم نيالً ، ويرمونهم رميًا ويطالبون بتكميم األفواه إال أفواههم ، ويطالبون غيرهم باتباعهم رغ ًما عنهم ، وهؤالء ماضون في منهجهم طالما شيوخ النفط معهم ، والبترولاير يناصرهم ، وهؤالء يريدون أن تسال الدماء ، ويقتل الرجال ، و يسبي النساء . على الجانب اآلخر فإن حقيقة المخطط الذى يهدف إلى تمزيق العالقة بين المسلمين جميعا واضحة يعلمها الكثير ، إال أن تلك الحقيقة كتمها علماء القحط طم ًعا في الثراء المأمول من بالد البترول! وبناء على هذا فإن المسلمون ينقسمون إلى قسمين :

محبون آلل بيت النبى صلى هللا عليه وآله وسلم . ومحبون آلل بيت صهيون )إسرائيل( .

فالذين يحبون أهل بيت النبى يعملون على توحيد األمة اإلسالمية ، ونبذ كل عوامل التفرقة ، عمال بقوله تعالى : )إن هذه أمتكم أمة واحدة( وقوله صلى هللا عليه وآله وسلم : )من أكل ذبيحتنا واستقبل قبلتنا له ما لنا وعليه ما علينا( .

أما الذين يحبون آل بيت صهيون )إسرائيل( ، فيعملون على تأمين وجودها فى المنطقة ، فيكفرون الشيعة والصوفية ، ويكفرون علماء األمة ، وفى المقابل لم ولن تسمعهم يتخوفون من إسرائيل ، وال يتبجحون فى وجه أمريكا!! ومثل هؤال تجاهلوا قول هللا تعال : )وال تأمنوا إال لمن تبع دينكم( ، وقوله تعالى : )ولعبد مؤمن خير من مشرك ولو أعجبكم( . وأقول لهؤالء : إن توطيد العالقة مع الشعب اإليرانى المسلم أولى من توطيد العالقة مع أمريكا ، والتودد إلسرائيل!! إن االهتمام بإنشاء سوق عربية مشتركة بين الدول اإلسالمية أولى من التسول من أمريكا وبريطانيا وفرنسا وألمانيا !!

وأقول لكل مسلم : من يفرق بين المسلم وأخيه المسلم خائن لدينه ووطنه ، وعلى الجميع أن ينتبه قبل فوات األوان .

موقع اإلسالم وطن

الجمعة 3 جمادى األولى 4131 هـ - الموافق 41 مارس 2013

Arab-West Report Title: Interviewing Sufī Shaykh Abul-Azayim about Sufīsm and Politics Author: Nadira Mekic

AWR met the Shaykh of the Sufī Azamiya order in Cairo on March 22, 2013. Most of the interview took place in Arabic and was translated. This text is a transcription of the translation of Jayson Casper, but has been approved by Shaykh Abul-Azayim.

Shaykh Abul-Azayim (69) was a geologist and the general manager of the Geological and Geophysical Information Center in Egypt. After his retirement in 1992, he became the Shaykh of the Azamiya order in 1994, succeeding his father. Being the head of the Sufī Azamiya order is a hereditary function. Sufīs are generally not involved in politics, but this is different for the Azamiya order that has had members of the order in many previous parliaments, mostly representing the National Democratic Party of President Mubarak. Shaykh Abul-Azayim is deeply critical of Egypt’s Islamists.

Shaykh Abul-Azayim: I met the U.S. Ambassador Francis J. Ricciardone, Jr. in 2008. He then stated that Sufīs are best equipped to work with and accept other religions and minorities. After framing a program on the different Sufī Turuq [Turuq, plural of Tariqah, Sufī path], I went in 2008 with a delegation of nine Shaykhs of the biggest Turuq to the U.S. The aim of our stay was to hold a large conference addressing topics such as the role of Sufīs in societies’ stability and security. I received the ambassador’s feedback shortly after we arrived. He expressed his hope that the conference would become a pioneer project in all of the attending nations. Moreover, he wished the results of the conference to be known worldwide.

Cornelis Hulsman: Have you published the results of the conference?

SA: There was a C.D. covering the results of the conference. The Shaykhs and I traveled to the U.S. once again and met with Margaret Scobey (United States Ambassador to Egypt, 2008-2011). We as Muslims aspire to cooperate very seriously with Christians. The Qur'an says: “You will find the nearest of them in affection to those who believe are those who say, ‘We are Christian.’” (Sura 5:82). Yet, the Holy Book also states that cooperation with Jews is prohibited for it says: “You will surely find the most intense of the people in animosity toward the believers [to be] the Jews and those who associate others with Allah” (Sura 5:82). As Ambassador Scobey indicated her wish to cooperate with both Christians and Jews, we have since been invited to the American Celebration of Independence for an interreligious exchange.

On his visit to Egypt, President Barack Obama held an excellent speech. Yet my friends in the U.S. whom I visit once a year tell me that even though his eloquence is outstanding, clear actions of him are rare to find.

When Obama came to Egypt in 2008 I was eager to know the message he would give and the possible support of the U.S. for our country. His visit accounts for another conference of Sufīs in Egypt as a response to Obama. He said that if Egypt approached the U.S., they would be willing to help. But once again, nothing happened. This is the unfortunate relationship between Muslims and Christians which is a topic I am eager to address.

After the Revolution -- which led to an even more heterogeneous atmospheric picture in the Egyptian society -- we demanded Shaykh Ahmed El-Tayeb (current Imam of Al-Azhar, regarded as the most important institution in Sunnī Islam) to hold a conference addressing a national reconciliation. We wanted this reconciliation to bring together Muslims, Salafīs, Sufīs and Christians. Shaykh Ahmed El-Tayeb established the Beit al-Aila (lit: House of the Family), which should fulfill our aim. Yet unfortunately, the Beit al-Aila's efforts have not borne any fruits. I strongly recommend them to enter into an active dialog with members of all religions to get to the bottom of their different needs.

Much to our dismay, extremist Salafīs have been attacking and burning churches as well as the Sufī shrines. This shows that we are the target. We have thought of making an Egyptian League of moderate Muslims and Christians to build our nation. In addition, we supported Ahmed Shafiq (former air force-general-turned-independent-presidential-candidate in 2012 and Mursi's opponent in the second round of the presidential elections). Yet the strong connection of the Muslim Brotherhood to the Egyptian army caused Mursi to become president.

CH: Could you elaborate on the agreement between the Muslim Brotherhood and the army?

SA: We believe that both Muhammad Hussein Tantawi (then the commander-in-chief of the Egyptian Armed Forces and, as Chairman of the Supreme Council of the Armed Forces) and Sami Anan (Chief of Staff of the Egyptian Armed Forces) knew about the heavy weapons and tanks that were delivered to Egypt and used against protesters during the Revolution. Of course, our knowledge concerning this topic is limited, but we think that the army's support was one of the main reasons why Mursi became president.

I also think that the U.S. supported the Muslim Brotherhood. The events in Egypt in 2011 were rather an Arab Autumn than an Arab Spring. And it was rather an Islamist Spring than an Arab Spring.

Yet this Islamic Spring is led to 99% by agents of Israel and Barack Obama as an agent for Israel disguised as leaders of Arab and Muslim nations. In fact, I state that 99% of all world leaders are agents of Israel. Any change in this constellation would be disadvantageous for the US. The U.S. should therefore change the paradigms of their politics and turn to the people instead of leaders. Otherwise, I predict a bad future for our relationship.

The Egyptian League consists of Muslims and Christians. Its aim is to improve the understanding between religious groups and Sufīs.

CH: There are several Islamist parties in Egypt, such as the Freedom and Justice Party, Hizb Al- Nour, Hizb Al-Watan. Where do the Sufīs belong to?

SA: Gamal Abdel Nasser (President from 1952 to 1970), who led the Egyptian Revolution in 1952, marginalized the role of religion. The result was that the majority of the Muslim Brotherhood members were sent to prison and other religious movements remained silent. When Anwar Sadat (President 1970 to 1981) released the prisoners and gave the Muslim Brotherhood an opportunity to work. Yet, from the remains of the Muslim Brotherhood, the Salami movement emerged of which members killed Sadat. Mubarak opposed religion in any form and distrusted religious persons as leaders. He only made contact with religious movements very reluctantly. Egyptian Sufīs worked very carefully with him as well. In fact, during Mubarak's reign, Sufīs regarded politics as dirty and polluting. We mostly worked just within our individual tariqa and had only little political involvement.

Prof. Abdallah Schleifer: I was working in Egypt while Sadat was in power. I had the impression that he rather had an apprehension for Sufīs.

SA: This is true. He supported us by passing bills such as Law 118 and Law 76 and provided a location for a meeting of different Sufī leaders. But he relied more on the Muslim Brotherhood than on the Sufīs. The Salafīs, emerging from the Brotherhood, killed Sadat. I regard Sadat as the best leader. If he was still alive these days, Egypt would be different.

Unfortunately, Mubarak was a very faithful agent of Israel. But it is even more unfortunate that the Muslim Brothers and Salafīs are even better agents to Israel than Mubarak has ever been. There is a leading impact of the Muslim Brotherhood on what is happening in Syria now. Shaykh Buti was killed yesterday, and he was a Sufī and a very good one. They wanted to get rid of Bashar and keep Iran and the Hizbollah out and to support and bless Israel. This is what is happening in the Syrian sphere.

Shortly after we founded our political party, the Hizb Al-Tahrir Al-Masry (Egyptian Liberation Party) in September 2011, we focused on two different things. The first aim is Sufīsm, focusing on the values of the Egyptian population. The second aim is that the party will hopefully lead Egypt one day.

We are struggling with opposing Sufīs in our own ranks. Some think that Sufīs should not engage in politics, for at least the image of politicians as liars contradicts our position. They have declared politics as impure.

AS: Is any other tariqa associated with the party?

SA: No, just the Azameyya tariqa until now. I am a member of the Council for Interfaith Muslim Dialogue and an organization which is trying to improve the relations with Iran, so some of the other Sufīs are accusing me of being Shi’ite and not of the Sunnī faith. But this is a big mistake. May be this is the reason the other tariqas are not interested to participate in the political actions of the Hizb al-Tahrir al-Masry.

The Shi’a are different from the Sunnî in one thing: they trust the Imam; they think their Imam is infallible. We don't think so. So if the Imam demands that they go to the Persian Gulf and to throw themselves into the water, no one will ask why. In Sunnî Islam the first thing would be why, what means they would never do it? But it is still one ummah - I believe Islam is one ummah. I hope there will not be separation anymore and Shi’a and Sunnî will be unified.

CH: Where did the Sufī vote go to in the parliamentary elections in Egypt after the Revolution?

SA: The Salafīs in Egypt received a great amount of Saudi financing. And the Muslim Brothers received a lot of financing of Qatar. The Sufīs received nothing from anybody. Muslim Brothers were winning the parliamentary elections because they gave a kilo of meat, tea, sugar, or a gas bottle to people voting for them. At least 100 LE in products to everyone. We are not able to do this. So our votes didn’t go to anyone, except Shafiq. Eight million Sufī and three million Christian votes and all the people who didn’t support Mursi gave their votes to Shafiq. We just concentrated on Shafiq. One day I was asked by an Iranian newspaper if I could support Mursi and I refused. The following question was if I could support Hamdeen. I answered, I will think about that and the newspaper wrote: Abul-Azayim supports Hamdeen. I think Hamdeen got at least two to three million votes because it was reported that Abul-Azayim supports Hamdeen.

AS: When they reported in the press that you supported Hamdeen, did you, Shaykh Abul-Azayim, issue a denial?

SA: No, I didn't for another reasons. Hamdeen Sabahi is from the same governorate as me. We are both from Kafr el-Shaykh. The people there supported Sabahi, which is why I could not issue a denial. But after the first round in the presidential elections, I announced officially that I am supporting Shafiq.

CH: You are one of the founders of the political party Hizb al-Tahrir al-Masry. What gave you the motivation to enter politics and what is your political issue?

SA: If you want to know something about our political message, then you should meet the head of the political party and talk to him. I am not the head of the party; my role is the one of a consultant for moral issues -- a mustashar. I was concerned about the faith of the Sufīs, because we believe that neither the Salafīs nor the Muslim Brothers are protecting Sufīs or Christians. We are afraid that the laws I mentioned before, 118 and 76, might be cancelled. We see the party as an umbrella for all Sufīs.

In the days of Mubarak we had many representatives in the parliament. But now, currently, we are thinking of fielding candidates for the next elections. But I don’t really think there will be elections at all. I think that the Muslim Brothers are going to fail around July or August and their rule will be over. All Egyptians now are longing for the days of Mubarak. The liberals and secularists are suffering now from the Muslim Brothers and the Salafīs.

It became known that the presidential elections were forged. So those who elected Mursi were only two million people all over Egypt. They used other names, distorted ID numbers to win. The number of Muslim Brothers and Salafīs in Egypt is no more than 1.5 million. So 1.5 million votes came from the Salafīs and the Muslim Brothers and 0.5 million votes from those who didn’t support Shafiq.

Not a single member of our party ran as a candidate in the 2011 parliamentary elections, because we didn’t have the abilities like the Muslim Brothers or the Salafīs.

AS: The Tariqa Azamiya was involved into politics already in the 1930's against the British occupation by printing brochures.

SA: No, actually earlier than that. When the Balfour Declaration gave the promise for a homeland to the Jewish people, Imam Abul-Azayim issued a fatwa by the Tariqa Al-Azamiya saying that anyone who sells even a square meter of their land to Jews is leaving Islam, we will divorce him from his wife, and if he dies we will not pray upon his body and he will not be buried in Muslim cemeteries.

AS: This was issued by the Imam in Cairo or Azamiya in Palestine?

SA: No, here in Egypt. After my great grandfather had been in Sudan, working as a Professor of Islamic sharī’ah in Khartoum, he became opposed to the British colonial powers in Sudan, so the British occupiers saw him as a danger in Sudan and sent him back to Egypt. In Egypt it was the time of the 1919 Revolution of Saad Zaghloul, so he was supporting this revolution. Since he owned a printing house he printed articles and brochures against the British occupation and supported Saad Zaghloul.

AS: Was it the only Sufī tariqa, which was politically active during the British occupation or where there other Sufī tariqas?

SA: No, there was another one. A man called Mahmoud Abul-Fad Al-Maloufy, Shaykh Tariqa Al- Faddiya Al-Maloufy. He and Imam Muhammad Abul-Azayim were the ones who helped to bring the signatures of support for Saad Zaghloul in 1924. This is when Ataturk cancelled the Khalifat of the Muslims. Imam Abul-Azayim was opposed to the breaking up of this Khalifat and the separation into smaller states so he made a conference to make another Khalifat related to the Muslims in Mekka. In 1926 Abul-Azayim was the representative of the Egyptian people in Mekka and Rashid Ridda was the personal representative of King Fuad. But because of the Saudi family conquering the Hijaz, this conference failed.

AS: Because the Saudis were working with the British?

SA: Yes, so in 1948 there was a brigade from the Azamiya Order “Al-Katib Al-Darrawish Al- Azamiya,” which fought in Palestine and they bought their own weapons. In 1964 the first successor was my father and he said that the two big enemies of the Islam are Gamal Abdel-Nasser and Ataturk. They are the ones that were helping Muslims go away from Islam. In 1970 the second Khalifa of the Imam, my father, announced that the biggest enemy of the Muslim is the Wahabiyya.

AS: Where there any further political actions of the Azamiya Order after 1970?

SA: Yes, against the Wahabis, actually after I became the Shaykh of the Tariqa in 1994. You have to know, I love Egypt very much and to be an Egyptian any day is better than being a citizen of any other country of the world and I want to accomplish something for the sake of Egypt. There are two goals I have in my life: one is to achieve Islamic unity and the second is obtaining the best for Egypt. This is the dream of my life. The Azamiya order started again to be politically active against Hosni Mubarak. When Mubarak built the separation wall between Gaza and Israel, I said this is not right. We had 20 representatives from the Azamiya order in the last parliament in 2010 during the Mubarak rule. Some of them were members of the National Democratic Party and some were independent.

AS: As a Sufī Shaykh, what is your position on the relationship between sharī’ah and the constitution and the government in general?

SA: The civil state is what the Prophet Muhammad himself established. This is in the text of the Medina contract called Sahifa. And this contract gave people the freedom of religion. So people were equal even the infidels and everyone who was working for the good of all in that time were part of the constitution of the city of Medina. That’s why we see that Islam favors the civil state and not a religious state.

Jayson Casper: So should sharī’ah be part of the constitution?

SA: The Qur'an says: “O Al-Kafirun (Disbelievers)! I worship not that which you worship. Nor will you worship that which I worship. And I shall not worship that which you are worshipping. Nor will you worship that which I worship. To you be your religion, and to me my religion” (Sura 109). If you implement the sharī’ah how can you be sure it does not affect negatively non-Muslims?

JC: What would then be the sources of law?

SA: All these discussions are just selling the religion to get votes. For the sharī’ah to be applied you have to have two things: the people have to have a place to live, to work, enough to eat, etc. And the second thing is security in the country. Umar Ibn Al-Khattab did not practice capital punishment for stealing because there was famine in the country. So if someone stole because he cannot eat they will not apply the sharī’ah to him. Thus in order to practice the sharī’ah these two things have to be present. Now, there is no security in Egypt. In fact there is a good possibility that a revolution of hunger is coming. So anyone who says he wants to implement the sharī’ah in the name of Islam lies. The Muslim Brothers are liars. The Prophet Mohammad, p.b.u.h. says that there are four types of a pure hypocrite: When he speaks, he lies; when he makes a promise, he breaks it; when he is trusted, he betrays his trust; and when he argues, he behaves in a very imprudent, insulting manner. And the worst one is the last one. And the Muslim Brothers are the same, they qualify all four attitudes.

Nadira Mekic: Could you say in a few words, going to the core, what is Sufīsm in the basic concept?

SA: Sufīsm is morality and ethics. The more you enter into the Sufī way, the more ethical and moral you become. This is Sufīsm – being a moral person.

NM: Is the Sufī conception of Islam compatible with the political aims that your tariqa is engaged in?

SA: Yes, because everything is under the head of morality and good manners.

NM: In the concept Sufīsm you are not electing or voting for a shaykh. The current Shaykh is designating the following one.

SA: The son of the shaykh is the next shaykh. If there is no son, than the brother. And if there is no heritage, they will elect someone from the tariqa. The election emanates from the tariqa and all their members.

NM: So the mentality of Sufīsm and the principle of having a Shaykh resemble the mentality of democracy.

SA: If there is no heritage, then it is democratic. It is something that is inherited. Almost like a royal dynasty. Democracy actually is a beautiful word: it is the rule of the people. But it is not applied anywhere in the world. George W. Bush was chosen by the American people who didn’t want to go to Iraq or Afghanistan, but they went anyways. Where is the democracy here? It became an empty word and talk.

NM: Is your party just interested in Sufī interests or does it want to represent all global issues and issues of all the people in Egypt?

SA: The Azamiya Tariqa will make a media conference with all the Sufīs orders of the world next May, God willing, in Paris. We chose Paris because the French are close to North Africa and a lot of people speak French. There is also no problem with the security in France. And we will announce the formation of the first worldwide Sufī conference. So the leaders of all the different Sufī orders will come together and will choose who will be the president, the general secretary, where the money is going -- they will create a worldwide Sufī organization. Within three years we will apply officially to become an observer at the UN.

CH: Coptic businessman Naguib Sawiris lives in Paris.

SA: I will tell you the story of Naguib Sawiris. In 2009 we were sitting together with Muslim businessmen and we were talking about the current situation in Egypt. We have a magazine called Islam Watan, or “Islam Homeland”. We are choosing every year the man of the year. There was once a Jewish man and once a Christian. The Christian man of the year was Naguib Sawiris. The Muslim businessmen told me, he is a good one, choose him, because he wants to improve the relations between Christians and Muslims and he is very loyal to Egypt. The Jewish man was Ehud Barak, the former Israeli Minister of Defense, because he met with all of the Jewish attitudes and adjectives the Qur’an gives to Jews.

NM: How do you see the role of Tariqa Al-Azamiya inside the Sufī movement of these days?

SA: There are two different persons who play a role in Sufīsm these days. There is the official shaykh, the shaykh of all the other shaykhs, designated by the government. And there is another, a popular one, the one of the people. So, I am the popular one and the official one is Shaykh al- Qasabi. And I believe now is our opportunity to make all the Egyptians belong to Sufīsm. A lot of people like to attend the Hizb Al-Tahrir Al-Masry because of the personality of Sufīs. This is the chance to get people to become Sufīs.

AS: You mean being a Sufī because of the political actions or being a Sufī because of Sufīsm itself?

SA: Because of Sufīsm itself. Getting to people through politics.

NM: So you think acting on the people’s scene makes you closer to the people so that they can see what Sufīsm is?

SA: Yes, this is the aim of our political party.

AS: Is it also possible that people join Sufī movements because of the experience they have with the Muslim Brotherhood rule?

SA: No, I don't think so. But we are suffering from the Muslim Brothers and Salafîs and we never suffered from the Sufîs as Egyptians. The history of Sufîs is good. They were always engaged in politics, from Abdul-Qadir Gilani, to Ibrahim El-Desouki, to Ahmed Badawi.

Egypt has religious people by nature. I will tell you something very important. Some Christians attend our dhikr sessions and there is nothing special with that. They still say I am Christian, but I love this. It gives me spiritual energy. But the Muslim Brotherhood and the Salafîs have no religion, they don’t deserve Islam. Abbas El-Aqad wrote in 1949 that Hasan Al-Banna was a Jew by religion and there are three reasons to say that: first, he looked like a Jew, but this is a point which is not important for me. There are Jews looking like Muslims and Muslims looking like Jews. The second thing is, we don’t know his grandfather. The third thing is that his father was a watchmaker, and this profession was a Jewish one. Gamal Abdel Nasser was a Muslim Brother and a Messianic Jew. Hassan Al-Hudaybi was a Muslim Brother leader and a Messianic Jew. All the leaders of this Brotherhood movement are Messianic Jews. This is why they are supporting Israel over anything else and especially over the Muslim world.

CH: Gamal al-Banna said his brother Hassan al-Banna started his life as a Sufî.

SA: Hassan al-Banna knew that Sufîs don’t think badly of anyone and they are goodhearted. So he took some of them and led them to the Muslim Brotherhood.

A female journalist from Al-Watan in Kuwait reported once that their name was not Muslim Brothers, their name was Brothers of the Muslims. They appeared first after the First World War and the Balfour Declaration and wanted to be very close to the Muslims because they knew that in Islam, if someone occupies our land we should try to liberate it. If we don’t try, that means we are not Muslim. This is one of the laws of Islam. Hassan al-Banna didn’t know that. But their appearance as Muslim Brothers had the aim to be very close to the Egyptian people. Because they knew that the Egyptians are the only ones who can fight Israel; the Egyptian soldiers are brave and you can depend and rely on them. And so in all the wars against Islam and Muslim nations you will find Egypt defending it. The Muslim Brothers wanted to make Egypt not to fight Israel.

Gamal Al-Banna is not a Muslim either. In Islam we don’t have adultery. Adultery is forbidden. The Qur’an doesn’t accept adultery. For example I can shake hands with a lady, but if I leave my hand with hers for a while, this is the first step to adultery.

But Gamal al-Banna says kissing women is not forbidden and during Ramadan you can smoke cigarettes. He is crazy; no not crazy, he is Jewish and his family is Jewish. He wants the people to be far away from Islam. But he died, al hamdulillah.

AS: In your opinion, which tariqa has the greatest number of followers in the tariqa?

SA: I think it is Rifa’i in Egypt. But not all of them are following the grand Shaykh. They don’t have a cohesive organization. There are many Rifa’i Shaykhs who are not following the first Shaykh. The Sufî tariqa with the second largest following are the Azzameyya. We have more influence on our people.

NM: How is the Azamiya tariqa constructed?

SA: There are three different groups.

The first one is like a Majlis al-Shura. 10 of the tariqa members are my consultants and I chose them.

The second group consists of 52 members, two from each governorate. People elect them and I obey them. So the 52 members elect also the chief of them. The chairman of this committee should be obeyed by me. It’s like a Majlis al-Shaab. We vote for it, when we make a decision. Meetings happen every three months. And the third group consists of all the members of the Azamiya order.

Sufîs nowadays suffer from heritage, this is why I invented these councils. The Rifa’i order, for example, is 500-600 years old. If the first shaykh takes 90% of the knowledge. His son will have 80%. And one day it will be 0%. That’s what I am afraid of. If the chairman of this committee does not agree with any of my decisions, I will never do this. Although I am the Shaykh of the tariqa, the chairman is important because he is keen on the tariqa more than any other one.

It is like a constitutional monarchy. I tried to convince all the tariqa to do the same like me, but they refused.

AS: How is the relation with the other turuq?

SA: One day I was in Libya attending the first Sufî conference. Qadhafi made an office for Sufî orders from all over the world. That was 1995. He chose me to be the head for the Arab World. And in a meeting with Qadhafi I told him, that most of the Sufîs are suffering from three diseases: 1) Ignorance 2) Poverty 3) Imagination. They don’t deal with facts. So he asked me how we can improve the system within the tariqas. I suggested an establishment of an institute for all the shaykhs of the tariqas and to give them an idea about Sufîsm and let them have a vision. I myself have a vision for all Muslims and Egyptians. But they don’t have a vision towards anything. The second is: giving them some money. Give them something that they are able to support their tariqa. And the third thing: if there is a vision, they need support to realize it. Facts, no imagination. Unfortunately with the revolution and his death nothing happened, but this is what all Sufî tariqas need: a vision and the feeling of unity.