17 Motion of confidence KARTIKA 25, 1912 (SAKA) In council of Ministers 18

Hen Prime Minister may now move the been used in plural number. motion. Then, the question of division of portfo- lios oomes into the picture. Not only that; the division of portfolios should be endorsed by SHAI K. P. UNNIKRISHNAN the President, according to the advice of the (8adagara): Sir, I am on a point of order. Council of Ministers. There is a procedure in (Interruptions) Sir, according to the Rules of the Constitution particularly under Article the House. the motion which is to be put 71(2) of the Constitution. But that has not before the House has to be precise. The been done. Portfolios have not been divided. motion, as moved by the hon. Prime Minister just says and uses the generic term as' The intention of the Constitution, the Council of Ministers'. Council of Ministers, intention of the Rules of Procedure and the headed by whom? (Interruptions) Is he Conduct of Business in the Lok Sabha is that afraid of naming himself or is he afraid of there should not be too much connotation of somebody else? (Interruptions) The House power in one or two hands; and that the spirit is entitled to know that. (Interruptions) Sir, of division of functions and collective re- there is no Council of Min isters. (Interruptions) sponsibility is maintained. Notonlythe letters, The motion should be precise. (/nte"uptions) but the intention of the provisions of the Secondly, where is the Council of Ministers? Constitution should also be given due con .. (Interruptions) More importantly, how has sideration. The import of the motion as pro- the Government of India carried on since 7th posed by the Prime Minister-as you have of November? Was it constitutionally per- asked the Prime Minister to move, Sir-is missible? Has any work been done, under against all democratic principles. It has been Article 77 of the Constitution which is con- intended by such motion to obtain a seal of stitutionally mandatory? (Interruptions) Who sanction behind the autocratic design. By is in charge of them? (Interruptions) Is Tau in such motion, a dangerous procedure is charge of Commerce? Is Tau in charge of sought to be created. So, I oppose this. I will Information and Broadcasting? (Interrup- say again that if he propos~s to move the tions) How has the Government carried on motion, then, it will be wrong and unconsti- for the last few days? (Interruptions) tutional. (Interruptions)

SHRI NANI BHATTACHARYA SHRI SAIFUDDIN CHOUDHURY (Berhampore): Sir, I am on a point of order. (Katwa): This motion is a serious fraud. We do not have any Council of Ministers. We MR. SPEAKER: What is your point of have a small Cabinet. (Interruptions) order? So, I propose an amendment that it (Interruptions) should be:

SHRI NANI BHATIACHARYA: Sir, my "confidence ;n the future Council of point of order is clear. Sir, the motion attrads. Ministers. " Articles 74(1), 75(1) and also 352{3) of the Constitution. Then again, it attract Articles ( Interruptions) 77(1) and 77(2) of the Indian Constitution. According to the provisions of the Constitu- MR. SPEAKER: Shrf Indraj~ Gupta. tion and also according to the Hulas of this House, the Council of Ministers is not exis- (Interruptions) tent at present. This is number one. Then, to constitute a Council of Ministers, more than one Minister, besides the Prime Minister is MR. SPEAKER: Let us hear Shri Indrajit required because the term 'Ministers' has Gupta. 19 Motion of confidence NOVEMBER 16, 1990 In councIl of Ministers 20

SHRIINDRAJITGUPTA (Midnapore): I It specifically says: had given an amendment, Sir. You perhaps • have rejected because it is time-barred. This crrhere shall be a Council of Ministers difficulty can be overcome Hthe Prime Min- with the Prime Minister attha head to aid ister agrees. and advise the President...... "

My amendment was that simply one There is no Council of Ministers at the word should be inserted before the word present moment. And there is no Council of 'Council' and that is 'proposed' - confidence Ministers headed by anyone. (/nt8rruptions) in the proposed Council of Ministers-if he is Therefore, the motion is nol valid. willing 10 say that (Interruptions) Secondly, there are many implications MR. SPEAKER: Mr. Chitta Basu, be regarding the Council of Ministers. brief. SHRI MURLI DEORA (Bombay South): (Interruptions) Not implication, but complication for you. ( Interruptions) SHRI CHITTA BASU (Barasat): Mr. Speaker, Sir, no motion is valid in the House SHRI CHITTA BASU: The implication unless the motion is in conformity with the would lead to complications for them also. letter and spirit of the Constitution of the country. MR. SPEAKER: Mr. Chitta Basu, please conclude. SHRI DINESH SINGH (Pratapgarh): The Supreme Court has to interpret that, not SHRI CHITTA BASU: According to our Mr. Chitta Basu. (Interruptions) Constitution, the Government and the Prime Minister can recommend for the imposition MR. SPEAKER: Yes, Mr. Chitta Basu. of emergency under Article 352. Suppose, for the time being. Mr. Chandra Shekhar ( Interruptions) wants to impose emergency in the country. (interruptions) Then, the President cannot, SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE unless there is a concrete resolution by the (Bolpur): The supreme defector wants to go entire Cabinet. (/nt9"uptions) Therefore, this to the Supreme Court. (Interruptions) is a very important point with regard to the Council of Ministers. (Interruptions) MR. SPEAKER: Mr. Chitta Basu, will you please address the Speaker? There is no provision for the Deputy Prime Minister in the Council of Ministers. SHRI CHITTA BASU: The motion before There is only one Minister, the Prime the House is: Minister...... (Interruptions)

"That this House expresses its confi- MR. SPEAKER: Mr. Chitta Sasu, you dence in the Council of Ministers." have made your point. Will you please sit down? Nobody knows. Of course, I have known it through the Press and the TV that one Mr. SHRt CHinA BASU: I have not yet Chandra Shekhar heads this Govemment. made my point. (/nt9"uptions) (Interruptions) This motion does not include the name of the proposed Prime Minister. MR. SPEAKER: Please do not repeat ( Interruptions) your argument.

Sir, look at Article 14 of the Constitution. (lnteffuptlons) 21 Motion of confldencs KARTIKA 25, 19~ 2 (SAKA) in council of Ministers 22

SHRI CHIITA BASU: Probably there is [English] one person, Mr. Chandra Shekhar and there .. is another person, Mr. Devi lal who happen THE PRIME MINISTER' (SHRI to be the Ministers. Now, how is the business CHANDRA SHEKHAR): I beg to move: of the Government to be conducted? ...... ( Interruptions) ...... What about other -That this House expresses its confi-

Ministers? ..... (/ntsrruptions) ...... Then, I dence in the Council of Ministers. II come to Rules. Rule 2 (1) defines as to who are the Ministers, the Members of the Cabinet. [T rans/ation] Now. where is the Cabinet? Therefore Sir, the business of the House cannot be con- Mr. Speaker, Sir, I regret that the non- ducted. The Motion under consideration of formation of the council of Ministers has the House is not in conformity with the Jetter shocked many of my friends and they are and spirit of the Constitution. It violates the very keen to see as early as possible the new Rules of Procedure and Conduct of the faces of the members of the Council of Business of the House under Rule 2 (1). Ministers. They have become so habitual of Therefore. I appeal to you that the Motion seeing'thefaces of Ministers that Parliament should be rejected. (Interruptions) is meaningless to them without Ministers. They want to know the reasons. There are SHRI SAMARENDRA KUNDU many reasons for not forming the Council of (Balasore): Sir. we are here to protect the Ministers. honour and dignity of this House. We are here to see that no illegality is committed as Sir, very humbly we have undertaken long as you adorn that this responsibility and many of our friends Chair ...... (/nterruptions) ..... Therefore. 1 ' have raised their voioe that we do not enjoy think that Mr. Chandra Shekhar would also majority support in the House. I never wanted agree and it is absolutely correctthat nowhere to give them an opportunity to say that I in the Constitution there is a provision for the expanded my Council of Ministers in a big Deputy Prime Minister. No Council of Min- way without obtaining their consent or the isters can be constituted with one consent of this august House. The only Minister ...... (/nterruptions) ...... It ;s reason was that the Cabinet was to be ex- highly illegal. I would represent to you that, panded after obstaining vote confidence. 1 Sir, no illegality be committed as long as you feel that they should have visualised it much are in the chair I request you to kindly rec- earlier but it they failed, it was their fau~ like ommend to the President to let him swear in a particular bird who cannot see anything in at least one more Minister at least by 4 PM the sun-light. The fault lies with the eyes and today and then come back here. If he does not with the sun. Therefore, Mr. Speaker, Sir, that. then it would be proper and in order. through you, I would like to submit that today Please do it Sir. we are passing through a crucial phase and the condition of the country in every resped ( Interruptions) is bad. I do not want to level allegation against anybody here ...... (/nte"uptions) MR. SPEAKER: I am giving my ruling. The Motion is in order. It is not necessary to Neither I intend to level charges against name the Prime Minister in the Motion. It is anybody nor I am interested in delivering a for the Prime Minister to select his team. long speech. I would like to reply to only a few There is no provision in the Constitution questions which are raised repeatedly. The about the size of the Council of Ministers. question which is often asked is whether we This is a matter for the Prime Minister to have got the mandate of the people or not, decide. It is not for the Chair to interpret the whether people have supported us or not. Constitution. The points of order are ruled and this is a genuine question. Last time out. Mr. Prime Minister. when we won elections and people elected 23 Motion of confidence NOVEMBER 16. 1990 In council of Ministers 24

[Sh. Chandra Shekhar] SHRI CHANDRA SHEKHAR: Mr. Speaker, Sir, I did not want to raise these us to form the Government. Shri Advani, Shri questions here. if my friend sought the rep1y, Somnath Chatterjee and Shri Indrajit Gupta he must be prepared to listen because these supported us and our strategy was to form a questions ...... (/nt9"uptions) because in Government which could prove a viable al- my opinion, these questions have no sig- ternative to the Congress. Advani ji had nificance at all. The basic question is what clearly mentioned in the election manHesto chc.;lIenges does the country face, in what that no compromise will be made in regard to condition the country is at present. We also Article 370. Similar other issued were also have certain constraints and I would not like raised by Shri Advani but I would not like to to relate how the country was administered go into them. We along with our parties had for eleven months and in what condition the also made it clear that no compromise will be economy of the country was when the made on certain specific issues. At that time. Government changed. However, I would we had also given an assurance to run the certainly like to relate the prevailing circum· Government for five years. It was also a stances at that time. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I seek basis to seek public support. Mr. Speaker, the permission of the House as well as yours Sir, I would like to know from my friends to put that situation before the House. The whether I was involved in toppling the pre- condition of the country during these six vious Government? ...... (lnterruptions) days has not deteriorated to the extent to which it was when we took over. I don't want to mention it. The economy of the country is [English] on the verge of collapse today. But Mr. Speaker, Sir, we know that despite all this, MR. SPEAKER: Order please. the country will not break. Crores of people of this country, where thousands of years old [ Translation] cutture persists, are its saviour. What direction was given, what policies were adopted dur- Please take your seat. ing the last eleven months? These faulty strategies and policies have put a big question SHRI CHANDRA SHEKHAR: Mr. makeonthefateofthe people, the economy, Speaker, Sir, just now Shri George the stability, unity and integrity of the nation Fernandes reminded me that we voted and the only way to remove this question against the Government which had become mark is that we should enlist the cooperation lifeless since the day Shri Advani withdrew of the people. The people are capable and his support. You may not find even a single the economy of the country is strong enough example in the history that a Prime Minister to face any challenge. I would like to appeal ever stuck to the Chair even after losing to all the countrymen that we are passing majority ...... (/nterruptions) ...... Political through ~ difficult and challenging period morality is Questioned here and I am being and thus we would like to have their coop- accused that I toppled the Government. I eration and strength. Mr. Speaker. Sir, nev.r concealed the fad that I opposed the through you, I would like to submit to the then Prime Minister but I was not involved in leaders of all the political parties that I am toppling the Government. If the Government free to say a few things but I am ready to say was toppled, It was only due to the miscon- onty what I can, through you, and if there is ceptions created between those friends who any exaggeration in what I say, I will be ready at present, are sitting together. If the previ- to resign not only from Prime Ministership ous Government relied only on their but also from the membership of this House. support ...... (/nt9"uptions) Mr. Speaker. Sir, I was already aware of MR. SPEAKER: Mr. Ann, Please take ~ and I would not relate this in the House your seat. Mr. Biplab, you also sit down. today. I have been continuously urging Shri 25 Motion of confidence KARTIKA 25, 1912 (SAKA) In oouncH of Ministers 28

Advani, who is present here, that the path on accordance with the provisions in the Con- which the country was being taken is that of stitution. Therefore, there is no need to be destruction. I also warned leaders of leftist concerned about the Prime Minister. Think parties of the same and made utmost efforts about the future of the country and about to avert it. taking it out of the present miserable oondi- tion. I would like to submit that in spite of the Mr. Speaker, Sir. it is true that we sought fad that the country is in bad shape, it retains the Congress support and there is nothing to its strength. Our farmers and labourers have be ashamed of it. I want the similar support got the capability to rebuild the country . •, om all other friends, who consider our ac- Crores of citizens of this country evan today tions to be shameful. Mr. Speaker, Sir, this take pride and love their CX)untry. I would like issue is not related to the prestige or pride of to have their coaperation also. I belong to an individual. It is related to the protection of that category of people who believe that in the country and on this issue we want ev- order to save the country support of people erybody not only the Members but all the is a must. That is why we took this initiative. citizens to unite to strengthen the country. I am confident that we will get the coopera- tion and support of all. With a view to throw Sir. through you, I would like to submit to a challenge to anybody but to make them them that there was a time when they re- realise the fads I would like to reiterate that spected Shri Advani like a saint and now white speaking they should exercise caution they consider him as "Rakshas- This is a fall and restraint lest I am compelled to reveal out of your political approach. Today the certain things which may make it difficult for leftists feel that they have full authority to you to face the people. Therefore, my sub- declare anybody progressive or reactionary mission is that you ponder over the matter. I suiting their whims. I do not need an certifi- leave everything to your wisdom. If you want cate from them. Mr. Speaker, Sir, my sub- to know the facts and hold the responsibility, mission is that I have also passed a con- I ,being the Prime Minister of the country. siderable time in politics and observed these would like to put all those facts before you stalwarts quite closely. Before pointing to- due to which I opposed the previous Gov- wards me, they, particularly the leftist lead- ernment, and joined hands with all the ers who participated in the national move- forces ...... (/nt8rruptions) ments and who have created a history due to which I respect them, should do some rat- The people who are concerned about rospection. They seem to be unaware of the the future of the country, who have full faith prevailing circumstances. in the eternity and dignity of the country will certainly support us in order to give new 12.00 hr•. strength to the country and to infuse inspi- ration. vigour and encouragement in its They are not aware of the circumstances masses. Instead of discord goodwill should through which the country is passing today. be generated. Blood should not be sheet I would like them to update themselves and Every life is precious, whoever dies is either think whether the need of the hour is to a son or a daughter of the country. I would extend cooperation and support in the interest like all of us to make efforts to unite on the of the country or not It is often asked as to issue of communalism and poverty and find who is the Prime Minister? At present you out a way to soothe the hurt feelings of are ignorant of it, in a few days you will very people and to boost a new strength in the well come to know about it. (/ntsnvptJons) country. With these words I would like this House to support my motion. The issue of Prime Ministership is not related to an individual. Prime Minister is the SHRI ARIF MOHAMMAD KHAN person who enjoys the support of the House, (Bahraich): Mr. Speaker. Sir, I want to raise whom the country has approved as such in a question of propriety. I am not on a point of 27 Introduction of Dy. P.M. NOVEMBER 16, 1990 Motion of confidence 28 in council of Ministers

[Sh. Ar~ Mohammad Khan] MR. SPEAKER: You resume your seat. order. The hon. Prime Minister in his speech SHRI RAM NAIK (Bombay North): Mr. said that the Member while delivering his Speaker, sir, it has been a practice of this speech should be careful about what he House that the Prime Minister introduces to says, so that he (the Prime Minister) is not the House every Mjnis1er who has been compelled to say something which makes it newly appointed. The new Deputy Prime difficult for the Member to face the public in Minister should have been introduced to future. The question of propriety is that if the everyone. Thus the Prime Minister should Prime Minister knows something about an introduce him to the House before the dis- han. Member that he has done something cussion starts. which will totally mar his image before the public if disclosed by the Prime Minister in his MR. SPEAKER: This is not a point of speech, the Prime Minister should not wait order. for the member to say anything against him, but divulge it before hand instead. It is a THE PRIME MINISTER (SHRI Parliamentary procedure and if we say that CHANDRA SHEKHAR) Mr. Speaker, Sir, I it is an attempt to blackmail the hon. Mem- am very grateful to the hen. Member, who bers, It will not be incorrect. It is my request has drawn my aUention towards this fact. to the Prime Minister through you to divulge Shri Devi Lal is the Deputy Prime Minister any such matter which he has in his and all of you know him. I thank you every knowledge and we are prepared to listen to much. him. It would be better to take the House and the people into confidence. (Interruptions)

12.06 hrs.

12.05 hrs. MOTION OF CONFIDENCE IN THE COUNCIL OF MINISTERS ·CONTD. INTRODUCTION OF DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER [English]

[Trans/ation] MR. SPEAKER: Motion moved.

SHRI HARIBHAU SHANKAR MAHALE "That this House expresses its confi- (Malegaon): Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am on a dence in the Council of Ministers. question of propriety. (Interruptions)

MR. SPEAKER: You please take your PROF. MADHU DANDAVA TE (Rajpur): seat. I am not permitting you to speak. Mr. Speaker Sir I consider today as one of the saddest moments in the history of par- SHRI HARIBHAU SHANKAR MAHALE: liamentary life. Sir, it is a saddest moment I have a question of propriety ...... (Inter- not because we are out of power. It is a ruptions) saddest moment, firstly because of the fad that when one of our colleagues of 40 years MR. SPEAKER: No, no I am not allow- association has formed a Government, ing you. There is no question of propriety. seeking the vote of confidence, unfortunately You take your seat. I cannot associate myseH with the Motion of Confidence. But more than that, certain AN HON. MEMBER: You kindly permit parliamentary traditions that have been a his to speak. You are trying to be partial to part of this House and of the Government are him. (/ntenvptions) sought to be flouted unfortunately. 29 Motion of Confidence in KARTIKA 25. 1912 (SAKA) Council of Ministers 30

As far as the formation of the new Gov- Council of Ministers. I do not raise the tech· ernment js concerned, despite what my nical point but the most important point that colleague Chandra Shekharji, the Prime I would like to raise is the manner in which Minister said, it is an accepted fact that the this Government has been formed. Please manner in which this Government is formed, allow meto refer to a very significant incident it is not formed by the mandate of the elec- in the me of our country's politics. I would like torate at all. (/nt9rruptions) I would like to to refer to our great Socialist Leader. the know from them what the mandate is. veteran frgedom fighter Acharya Narendra Dev. I would like to point out to this House As far as the last elections are con- that in 1934, the Congress Socialist Party cerned. those of us who are sitting on this was formed by eminent Leaders 1ike Shri side. no matter to which party we belong Jaiprakash Narayan. Acharya Narendra Dev. those who are non-congress parties sought Dr. Lohia and many others. the verdict of the electorate ...... Sir. in 1948, at the Nasik Conference of AN HON. MEMBER: Including the B. J. the Socialist Party. we decided to leave the P.? Congress. Acharya Narendra Dev had moved the Motion for leaving the Congress. But PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE: Yes. when we left the Congress in 1948, a very including the BJP. All of us sought the vote of signfficant incident occurred after that for the electorate on a mandate that was against which the entire country is proud. When we the working of the Congress and against the left the Congress in 1948 and Socialists policies of the Congress. (Interruptions) started functioning as an independent So- Honourable Congress members. How do cialist Party outside the Cdngress, Acharya you know? We fought the elections. I do not Narendra Dev and anumberof his colleagues allege that you fought against the Congress. who we"e Members of the Uttar Pradesh We fought against the Congress. Each one Assembly resigned from the Assembly. of us who won the election in 1989 won it on Acharya Narendra Dov got up In the Uttar a platform that was against the Congress. Pradesh Assembly and declared II I and my Sir. unfortunately. the new Government that colleagues were elected to U. P. Assembly is sought to be formed is flouting the prom- as members of the Congress Party and ises given to the electorate on our behalf that since we have left the Congress Party, we we shall fightthe policies of the past Congress are all resigning from the membership of the Government. That was the basis on which Uttar Pradesh Assembly." The Chief Minis~ we formed our Government. Not only that. ter who was a veteran Congressmen, re- The new Government that has been formed, questAd Acharya Narendra Dev. "Acharyaji, has been formed by picking up splinters from you must continue. You s)'mbolise the dig- the parerit party and is trying to sustain itself nity of this House." Some Members pointed with the help of the Congress. That is the out to Acharya Narendra Dev that there is no basis on which this Government is being Anti-Defection Law enacted either at the formed. Centre of in the States and so there is no compulsion of law that you should resign Sir, some friends have raised a point of fr'Jm the Assembly. Acharya Narendra Dev order asking whether there will be a Council said then, " I am not guided by the laws that of Ministers. Shri Chandra Shekhar is the are written O'l the paper but I am guided by mover of the motion. But I must say that Shri the inner moral law and I am now going to Devi Lal is the architect of this motion. Be~ tender my resignation." And. they quit the cause fortunately there is a Deputy Prime Uttar Pradesh Assembly. They contested Minister avaiiabJe. we can say that there is a the elections. All of them were defeated. Council of Ministers consisting of two Members and therefore he is perfectly jus~ SHRI RAM OHAN (Lalganj): Not all but tified in seeking a Vote of Confidence for the one. Shri Gajadhar Prasad was elected. 31 Motion of Confidence in NOVEMBER 16, 1990 Councilof Ministsrs 32

PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE: I stand AN HON. MEMBER: What about V. P. corrected. Singh?

Sir, when Acharya Narendra Dev was PROF MADHU DANDAVATE: Yes; I defeated in the election, you may recall, will quote everyone. However. I will not what type of campaign was carried on. In the quote you, because you are not worth quoting. campaign, it was said: (Interruptions) I am coming to Mr. Chandra Shekhar. (interruptions) In September 1987, "Prabhu Ram Chandra ki bhoomi ke our colleague Shri Chandra Shekhar had Ishwarwadi matdata Nirishwarwadi addressed a Press conference. What did he Acharya Narendra Dev ko vote denge," say in the Press conference? he said:

That was the level at which the campaign "Rajiv Gandhi is running a Government was carried on. enmeshed in corruption. It is a Gov- ernment of national shame. It has to go." I remember that in one of these cam- '1he party president Chandra Shekhar paigns, when Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru was told newsmen at the Press conference invited, he refused to join the campaign. That in the capita1. was the plane at which the politics was conducted at that time. Acharya ji was de- The Janata leader said: " Mr. Gandhi feated but his defeat and his decision and has no mind of his own. He is still like a decision to go out of the Assembly, despite pilot who is used to get directions from the fact that there was no anti-defection law the control tower. " laid the foundations of fair and clean politics in the country. I would have been extremely I do not know where the control tower is happy if Shri Chandra Shekhar and my col- located today. (Interruptions) Further, my leagues, instead of seeking the help of the colleague Chandra Shekhar ji said: Congress, were to demand and recommend

that II Let there be fresh elections and we "While Mrs. Indira Gandhi was never in shall take fresh mandate" and elections were a position to be blackmailed by foreign held. That would have been a saner path to Powers, Mr. Gandhi faces the prospect of carryon the politics of this country. blackmail by foreign countries", he said.

Our friend Shri Chandra Shekhar, the These are the views held by my friend Prime Minister of the country, has soughtthe Chandra Shekhar ji about Mr. Rajiv Gandhi support of the Congress Party. I do not want and his political party, whose support he is to settle accounts with personalities But as now seeking. (Interruptions) Under his far as politics is involved, I would likE' to leadership, and under his presidentship, a remind the House, that when Chandra meeting of the General Council of the Janata Shekhar ji has sought the support of the Party was held at Bangalore and there, a Congress Party led by Shri Rajiv Gandhi, resolution was passed pleading for 8 national what are the views held by thase two leaders alternative to the Congress with the Janata of the two parties, about each other and their party as the nucleus, saying that the Prime party organizations. I would like to point it out Minister has forfeited his moral claim to to you, in their very words- in the words of Mr. continue in office, and his continuance in Rajiv Gandhi. I will try to recall what he had power is a threat to the unity and integrity of said in this very House, on the floor of the the country. HOUSQ, regarding Chandra Shakhar ji and what Mr. Chandra Shekhar ji said about the I can go through so many quotations, Congress (I) and its leader Mr. RajivGandhi. but I think this sample is quite suffic.ient to indicate what view he was trying to holding as far as the president of the Congress (I), 33 Motion of GonfidtmC9 In KAATIKA 25, 1912 (SAKA) Council of Ministers 34 whose support he Is seeking, today. Mr. RajivGandhi." That is what I told you. We know what were your reaction about Chandra sir, in this very House, many colleagues Shekharji. I want to recall those days. (In- in Parliament may recall that I had Initiated t8rruptions) I know what was your opinion, debate on Punjab a number of times; and as far as he was concerned. whatever our differences with Chandra Shekhar ji, during every debate on Punjab After the blue Star operation, we re- which I in~iat8d, I spoke w~h pride about the peatedly referred to a number of develop- bold stand that he had taken; we are proud ments that had taken place. (Interruptions) of the association, and we shall continue to be proud of our association, and we shall SHRI JANARDHANA POOJARY never try to take a defensive attitude. I re- (Mangalore): You shattered the economy. member, on one occasion I was initiating a ( Interruptions) debate on Punjab, and there were certain observations made by the then Prime Min- PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE: When I ister, Mr. RajivGandhi and his Home Minister, am talking about atrocities, he is talking Mr. Buta Singh. They were very much dis- about economy; when I talk about economy, turbed by the pronouncement that Chandra he will talk about atroc~ies. (Interruptions) Shekhar jl had made after the Blue Star This is regarding November 1984 riots. This operations. They were disturbed by the dis- is a sensitive point for you. Whenever we cretions that he had made in defence, of the raised the question of November 1984 riots rights of the minorities like Sikhs? On one in which atrocities were committed against occasion when I was on my legs in the innocent Sikh population in Delhi, even the House, the then Prime Minister Rajiv Gandhi Sikhs who suffered had said, "We have asked me a straight question: uFor these nothing against Hindus and Muslims in Delhi; observations and statements of Chandra it was Hindu and Muslim neighbours on that Shekhar ji, regarding the situation in Punjab day who gave us the protection." But it was which approximates to a point of view which police and also the politically motivated in- goes against the interests of the nation, are dividuals who were responsible for the you going make a statement in the House? atrocities against the Sikh community. When Are you going to take action against Shri vandalism and goondaism was going on, you Chandra Shekhar?" I got up and said. " Not know the famous observation of the Prime only no question of action comes up, I told Minister. Our Prime Minister said: Mr. Buta Singh, it is none of your job what we do inside the party. Mr. Buta Singh. if I ask 'When a big tree collapses, even the you for any action against your President earth starts shaking" Shri Aajiv Gandhi are you going to take action against Shri Rajiv Gandhi? Are you AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Yes. going to say anything?" Here is a case in which we agreed with the views expressed by Chandra Shekharji in defending the rights PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE: You of the Sikh community. He was trying to admit what I have said. (/ntsrruptions) That assuage the hurt psyche of the Sikhs. And was the justification what was given by them. when our nationalism was challenged and (Interruptions) Even the commission that national loyalty was challenged, Mr. Rajlv was appointed. had said, that on a broad Gandhi I told you in this very House-Mr. estimate, about 3000 persons were killed. Prime Minister. I am not referring to )'OU; I am And when we raised this issue, this is the referring to the old Prime Minister-we had very same party. which is supporting the taken our lesson of patriotism and national Prime Minister today, had attacked Chandra loyalty at the feet of Mahatma Gandhi and Shekharji and attacked whatever he had Jayaprakash Narayan: it was too late in the said about atrocities in Delhi. I would like you day to take a lesson of patriotism from you, to remember that; and also I would like 35 Motion of Confidence in NOVEMBER 16, 1990 Councilof Ministers 36

[Prof. Madhu Dandavate] sensitive documents, you must not lay the documents already submitted to you on the Chandra Shekharji to remember what they Table of the House." We were prepared to had said. (Interruptions) lay them on the Table. We wanted more documents. Actually, the matter was pend- SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM (Sivaganga): ing before the Federal court in Switzerland. What is It that we are discussing today? It is your tragedy that today when we are ( Interruptions) discussing this Motion, already the news- papers have carried the judgment of Swiss PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE: We are Court-the Federal Court-which gave the discussing the vote of confidence in the new direction that all the documents that were Prime Minister. there, which they were hiding under the voil of confidentiality, can be handec over to the Now, let me come to the question of Government of India for investigation. Now Bofors. (Interruptions) all the investigators of the Government of India, accordingtothe Switzerland's Federal SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: Has he got Court directive, will get all those copies of any right to speak on that? We asked the these papers. (Interruptions) Look at their Prime Minister, V. P. Singh to lay on the way. Whenever I refer to those Bofors in- Table call the papers. They did not do it. vestigations they get disturbed as if they are (Interruptions) There is no money to pay standing in the dock. salary and he is talking about Bofors. What were they doing for 11 months? Sir, , wish to make one thing explicitly clear. Unfortunately our Prime Minister PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE: When- Chandra Shekharji made one remark, off the ever we attack Bofors they feel as if they are cuff. I know him very well. Sometimes he attacked. They identify themselves with makes remarks in a lighter vein and he made Bofors. (Interruptions) I am talking about the one statement, ''that it is not the Prime Min- Bofors. I am not talking about the Congress ister who is going to inquire into the Bofors (I). (Interruptions) I am talking about the deal and corruption. This has to be investi- Bofors, Mr. Speaker, I am not talking about gated by the Sub-Inspector of Police." That them. (Interruptions) is what he has said. I know that Chandra Shekharji has a sense of humour as I also MR. SPEAKER: You address me. have get and therefore he wants to take it in a lighter vein. Chandra Shekharji, Chandra PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE: , am Shekhar residing at No.3, South Avenue is addressing you, Sir. Unfortunately, some of different and Chandra Shekhar occupying them feel that Bofors is the surname of the seat of the Prime Minister is different. Congress (I). Therefore, wheneverwe attack When you made such an off the cuff remark the Bofors, they feel as if they are attacked. that an important investigation of Bofors was not your responsibil~y, but that of Sub-In- SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: We asked spector of Police, do you realise that you you to lay all the papers but you never did it. have contradicted this House? It was this very House, which in its own wisdomJ this PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE: Sir, yes, House had decided to have a special Par- rightly so, one of the Members raised the liamentary Joint Committee to investigate question about the laying of the papers on into the Bofors episode, It is of course true the Table of the House. Here are all the that we did not approve of the terms of the Members. An the non-Congress parties reference of the Joint..Committee the previ- agreed w~h us. When we wanted to have ous Prime Minister did not feel that Bofors' some sensitive documents, the Swedish deal should be investigated by the Sub- Government said that "n you want further Inspector of Police. 37 Motion of Confidence in KARTIKA 25, 1912 (SAKA) Councilof Ministers 38

SHRI SONTOSH MOHAN DEV (Tripura prepared to leave the Public Accounts Com- West): I would like to say something. The ex~ mittee. But let me apprise what is Mr. V.P. Prime Minister and the Ministers of the pre- Singh. He is misleading the House .... (in- vious Government are misleading this House. terruptions) . In the Parliamentary Public Accounts Com- mittee we have decided to investigate into SHRI SOMNATH CHATIERJEE: This the Bofors issue and the out-going Prime should be expunged. This is never done Minister was the Defence Minister, and a unless the report Is submitted ... (Interrup- letter came from the Secretary, Ministry of tions) Defence, saying, "We cannot give any pa~ pars, give us time. II That means they have PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE: Mr. denied papers even to the Members of the Speaker, Sir, since my friend. Mr. Sontosh Public Accounts Committee. Now he is giv.. Mohan Dev has raised a question. I would ing wrong information to the country. You put like to put the record straig ht. If you recall, the the whole papers about Bofors before the entire question was obstructed to some ex- Public Accounts Committee. They refused tent because of the veil of confidentiamy. to give them. (Interruptions) The matter was pending before the Swit· zerland Court. A.E. Services had already ( Interruptions) made an appeal that the documents should not be made available to the investigators of SHRI VISHWANATH PRATAP SINGH the Government of India. Fortunately, as ill~ (Fatehpur): Sir, on this matterthe Comptroller luck would have it for you.,today only the General of Audit and Accounts had asked for Switzerland's Federal Court's judgement the papers of all these files and whatever he had appeared in the press and we can had asked we had submitted to him. So, assure them that in addition to whatever was there was no concealment of any document in our possession even the new documents that was required by the proper authority and that are available secret documents which the highest authority on this. The other thing were not available before the Switzerland's which had been said is that we were pursuing Court judgement will be now available to the this case and as stated in the House. we had entire House and the Public Accounts won the case in Zurich. We have got a Committee. All those documents, Mr. Prime message today that the Federal Court has Minister. will be at your disposal. According given a judgement in our favour. Why could to the Switzerland Courts, veil of secrecy not that Government do what we have has disappeared and, therefore, to your achieved? This should be thoroughly heart's content, Mr. Sontosh Mohan Dev. probed. " (Interruptions) you can carry on the work of the Public Accounts Committee and probe the issue ... SHRI SONTOSH MOHAN OEV: The (Inteffuptions) Sir, I am not prepared to Defence Secretary had refused to give the believe the reports in the press. But the papers to the Committee. If necessary we press has stated that the new Prime Minister will lay it on the Table of the House... (ln~ will be willing to withdraw the cases arising terruptions) out of Bofors ... (Inteffuptions)

SHAt SOMNATH CHATTERJEE AN HON MEMBER: Shame. (Bolpur): Sir. I am on a point of order. What transpires in the Commhtee are n01 to be PROF. MAOHU DANDAVATE: Ida not discussed on the floor of the House unless say • shame' because I do not believe in that and until report is submitted. How is he doing report. I would only urge the new Prime that? He must keep 10 the convention of the Minister that 'especially after the new judge- House... (/ntenuptions) ment oftha Federal Court of Switzerland and after the new that had appeared in section. SHAI SONTOSH MOHAN OEV: I am of the press that there seems to be eome 39 Motion of Confidence in NOVEMBER 16, 1990 Councllof Mlnislers 40

[Prof. Madhu Dandavate) I would like to raise a point regarding one more aspect. I am not raising it in the pressure from the Congress party regarding form of a point of order at all. I do not want to the withdrawal of cases arising out of Bofors, do it that way. But I would like to point out to while replying to the debate give a categorical you that as far as the construction of a new assurance that no withdrawal of cases arising government and its membership is con- out of Bofors will be allowed. We would like cerned, avery interesting construction is put to have that assurance from the Prime Min .. on the very Rules of Procedure and the ister. I am confident that the Prime Minister Constitution. We have enacted the Anti- will give that assurance. I do not want to cast Defection Law. We had a lot of debate in this aspersions on him... (intsn'uptions) very House. And today we find that a very Interesting construction is being put as to SHRI RAJIV GANDHI (Amethi): I cat .. what constitutes a defection. what constitutes egorically say that we have not talked about a split which has actually led to the formation Bofors at any point with Mr. Chandra Shekhar. of the ruling party in cooperation with the Congress Party. Now in the first week of SHRI CHANDRA SHEKHAR: Mr. November, a list was submitted by the ruling Speaker. Sir. many things come in the Press. party or a ruling faction I may call it, to the to be fair to the leader to the leader of the Speaker. I do not want to raise anything with Congress Party, at" no stage he had men- which Mr. Speaker, you will be connec:,L tioned the name 'Bofors' to me during the But I want to raise something about the ;aw last one moth. Hsome friends feel satisfied its distortions and aberrations. Those ·of U~ by chanting Bofors all the time for solving all who discussed the Anti-Defection Law the problems of the oountry, I have nothing to threadbare in this House may recalJ an in- say about it. But I assure my friends Shri terpretation that was put by the constitutional Dandavate, that the law will take its own experts on that very law. That interpretation course and nobody will be spared. What I makes it very clears that at any particular said was, and am saying in all seriousness is point of time when a split occurs or the that the Prime Minister should not address defection take places in fact, whether it is a himself all the time to the corruption cases. split is in itseH is a challengeable proposition What I meant by 'Sub-Inspector· was that it and you are in the possession of it- all of is the investigating agency that does the job. them are disqualified if they are less than I feel that the job of the Prime Minister is re .. one-third of the strength of the Party which construction, development and upliftment of they quit. I do not want to go into that. But the people and not investigating the cases. even those who claim that they have caused Any contrary position I am not going to the split and they have submitted the list to accept. the Speaker in the first week of November, they are under the impression that there is, ( Interruptions) according to the rules, one month period for continnous process of defection. I have PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE: As Shri carefully studied the rule and Sir, you at Rajiv Gandhi has clarified on the floor of the least. bear in mind that in this House when- House that he has actually made no demand ever I have spoken and interpreted the rules, that the cases should be withdrawn, I am have always tried to objectively place batere very happy about that assurance and at least the House the fair interpretation of the rule. that settles the controversy. As far as the There Is one rule which says that when a new Prime Minister is concerned, I say that I did legislature party is formed. the details can be not believe in the report. But it is good that on given and for that the period is one month. both the sides the issue is clarified. Now path But when you do not form a new partyon the will be paved for the safe condud of all these basis of the verdict of the people and you try cases. In addition to the Federal Court's to break your own party and cause a split. judgement, I think proper steps wilt be taken that split defection is not to be brought into to clinch the Bofors' issue. 41 Motion of Confidence In KARTIKA 25. 1912 (SAKA) Councilof Ministers 42

the ambit of ths rule. Soma are under the that there is some limitation 10 our talk in the impression that I can split the party on 5th or House. 6th November declare the names, give them to you, tell it to the press and then in driblets PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE: I am I can go on inducting the defectors every two glad that Mr. Chandra Shekhar has reminded days. three days, or four days. Every time ni. about the limitation that I have got as a more people come to the new party that is a Member of Parliament. I have bean here for new spl~. The rule complies that whenever last twenty years and I will not violet any rules there is a split, all the splits that take place that are framed. I am only trying to point out latar on, and you go on inducting the people, that in playing our political game, how we are all those who enter your new party born out trying to distort the traditions fo the House of split will have to be one-third of the total and the Anti-Defection Law also. Sir, I did not remainder that is left there behind and, Thus say anything about your this continuous process of defection for one jurisdiction ... (Interruptions) month cannot be erred process of defection carried on. That is one aspect that is to be [ Translation] noted. I would like to raise another question. SHRI KAPIL DEV SHASTRI (Sonepat): Please listen to me. I too have a right to SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM (Sivaganga): speak. Ooes he accept that his party was split on the 5th of November? H so, what part he has MR. SPEAKER: Please take your seat. played? I am not giving you permission to speak. ( Interruptions) PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE: I made it clear Mr. Chidambaram that it ;s a maner (English] under the consideration of the Speaker be- cause when thirty people have violated the PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE: lam not mandate and violated the Whip, whoever yielding. (/ntsrruptions) are left are less then one-third and, therefore, that question is also under the oonsideratlon I fully agree with the views of hen. of the Speaker. Mambers Including Mr. Chandra Shekhar, that we should not bring into the discussion DR. THAMBI DURAl (Karur): Prof. the scope of the Presiding Authori1y. On the Madhu Dandavate has just said that split has contrary for that very reason I want to point not takan place. At the same time, he adds out to you that we should try to pose the that after submitting the list many people are political problems in such a way that the joining in the split group. It is a contradidion propriety regarding the Presiding Authority and also regarding the split hon. Speaker is not at aU violated and the separate identity has not given his decision. It is not fair on our of the two Houses is not at all oblitereted. I part to speak regarding the matter. I want to am vary sorry to say that one of the know whether you accept the split or not. spokesmen of the new Ruling Party tried to compare the actions of two Presiding Au- SHRI CHANDRA SHEKHAR: I would thorities. This should not be done for mere request Prof. Madhu Dandavata to under- political ends. This House has certain tradi· stand the propriety ofthisdiscussion. Hothers tions. Shri Somnath Chatterjee is sitting over also begun to discuss this question then it here. I would rafer to another Member of this will be very difficult for you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. House, Shri Somnath Chatterjee's father, to take positive view on the question. When Shri N.C. Chatterjee, who had been a Memt»r the matter is under your consideration, if he of this Lok Sabha. I would lik, to raise one wants to make some submission, I have particular issue which is relevant to what is nothing to say about it but he should know happening in politics today. On one occasion 43 Motion of Confidence in NOVEMBER 16. 1990 Councllof Ministers 44

[Prof. Madhu Dandavate] That is the point that I would like to bring to your notice. when the other House-the Upper House- passed the Special Marriages Bill, Mr. N.C. While initiating the Motion, my friend ' Chatterjee who was Member of the Lok Shri Chandra Shekharji said that even when Sabha had said in one of the Conferences in the BJP had withdrawn the support, we tried Madras that" after all who have passed the to cling to power. Today only the President Special Marriages Bill-a batch of urchins has made a statement that whenever there in the Upper House had passed the Special Is any question of testing the majority I it must Marriages Bill. • And as a result of that though be done on the floor oft he House. Apart from he was Member of this House, a Privilege that, I would like to reply to another point Motion was brought against Mr. N.C. made by the Prime Minister. He said. ''They Chatterjee in the Rajya Sabha. Then the tried to cling to power even the withdrawal of notice was communicated to Mr. N.C. support by BJP." If Mr. V.P. Singh were to Chatterjee. He was a Member of the Lok cling to power and continue as the Prime Sabha and issue was brought in the Rajya Minister, the softest option available to him Sabha. So, Mr. N.C. Chatterjee brought a was to have a compromise with Mr. Advani, counter Privilege Motion In this very House. have a compromise with Vishwa Hindu Shri Mavalankar was in the Chair. Please try Parish ad, and tell them that we are prepared to recall Mr. Speaker what type of golorious to accept their conditions ... (lnt8rruptions) traditions you are inheriting in this House. Mr. Mavalankar the Speaker got up at 12 0' SHRI RAJ IV GANDHI: Sir, Dandavateji clock and he announed: that "I have received says that he would not compromise with the a notice a Privilege Motion from Mr. N.C. Congress. I would like to say that he sent us Chatterjee and his Privilege Motion is that two feelers from two senior Cabinet Ministers. though he is a Member of this House, Privilege Motion has been brought in another House. PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE: Sir, as "The two Houses are independent. Their far as Congress is concerned, I tell you this identity cannot be obliterated. And when he is a blatant untruth ... (Interruptions) I shall said that. the then Prime Minister, Pt. never make any overtures to the Congress. \Iawaharlal Nehru got up and angrily said: "This Member has brought the Privilege SHRI RAJIV GANDHI: Mr. Speaker, Motion but what type of remarks he passed Sir, Mr. Mirdha is sitting here. He spoke to against the other House? I do not think he me personally. Perhaps he would like to can be tolerated." The Speaker, Mr. clarify that. Mavalankerthen said: IIMr. Prime Minister, I do not agree with you. So long as I am the PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE: Sir, as Speaker of this House, I will never allow my far as I am concerned, my cardinal principle Member to be subjected to the jurisdiction of is that we shall fight the Congress tooth and the other House. The two identities have to nail, both inside and outside ... (Interruptions) be retained and you cannot obl~erat9 them." I will also point out to you, Sir. that the [ Translation] spokesmen of the new ruling Party are openty comparing the judgements and the rulings given by the two presiding authorities of two SHAI NATHU AAM MIRDHA (Nagaur): Houses of Parliament. I would like to request Mr. Speaker, Sir, 'did meet Rajivji. Everyone the Prime Minister to restrain the Members. was present there. Now, Shri Chandra You can have the political game but whHe Shekhar has said that it is in the interest of playing the political game do not try to bring the oountry. I had also said the same thing the separate idintity of the two Houses and that under the present circumstances the the ruling of the two presiding authorities- atmosphere in the countoy can be made the Speaker and the Chairman-intodisputa. congenial only through r•• lltual discussion. 45 Motion of Confidence in KARTIKA 25, 1912 (SAKA) Councilof Ministers 46

[£uglish] giving sermons. (/nt9rruptions) You are ...••... giving sermons. SHRI RAJIV GANDHI: Sir, H I can re- mind Mr. Mirdha and it was not only Mr. MR. SPEAKER: Mr. Faleiro, please take Mirdha, Mr. Fernandes also contacted your seat. He is not yielding. me ... (Interruptions) PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE: Sfr, he [ Translation] is trying to call us :' ... '.

Let me finish it, since this matter has SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE: Sir, been raised. can a Member refer to another Member as

I •••••• '7 (Interruptions) He is calling Mr. [Eng/ish] Dandavate a ' ...... '

Sir , these are things one does not PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE: Your normally bring out into the public, but as Mr. calling me a': ...... ' doe not carry any weight. Dandavate is presenting such a picture of honourable behaviour, I think It is necessary [ Translation] to bring these things out. SHRI MADAN LAl KHURANA (South Sir, we were given two clear feelers. Mr. Delhi): Mr. Speaker, Sir, heis using the word Mirdha can deny it if he likes, but what he • ...... " (/nt9"uptions) said to Mr. Kurian and then he said to me, was that by any means let us protect Mr. V. P. [English] Singhonthe 7th of November.' (InternJptY.>ns) And he was willing to have any compromise PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE: His with the Congress provided we saw Mr. V.P. calling me a ,...... ' does not carry any weight Singh through on the 7th. We said, at all. (Interruptions) INo' . (Interruptions) MR. SPEAKER: I have not heard it'. Hhe PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE: Those has said it, it will be expunged. of you ... (Interruptions) Yes, I am making it clear. I had stated it very clearly, for the last SHRI L.K. ADVANI: Mr. Speaker. Sir. 40 years of my political career, I have never Mr. Faleiro is a senior Member of this House, indulged in this clandestine behaviour and he was a Member of the Council of Ministers he has not been able to give any proof that I and It would not do merely to expunge it. His have sent the message. Sir, on a number of remark is so obnoxious, so objedionable occasions ... (Interruptions) There is not aven that he should withdraw it, he should apolo~ ona occasion. gias. (Interruptions)

SHRt P. CHIDAMBARAM: He must SHRI EDUARDO FALEIRO: His apologies. He said, it is a 'blatant untruth'. It speeches do not go with his behaviour. These is confirmed by Mr. Mirdha He must apolo- speeches are destraying the country. You gies now. have destroyed the finances of ths country.

PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE: Not at [ Translation] all. Sir, neither Mirdha nor ... (Interruptions)

SHRI EDUARDO FAlefRO MR. SPEAKER: Please take your seat (Mormugao): Sir, stop these ...... from and be calm, Mr. FaJeiro.

··Expunged as ordered by the Chair. 47 Motion of Cc-nfId9nct1 in NOVEMBER 16, 1990 Councllof Ministers 48

[English] SHRI eDUARDO FALEIRO: Let Mr. Dandavate apologies for misleading the I will stili give a chance to Mr. Faleiro to House.( Interruptions) He said that they have make amends. not sought the support of the Congress. This is false, Mr. Mirdha and Mr. ( Intsrruptions) Fernandes ... (/nt9nvptions)

MR. SPEAKER: Mr. Faleiro, the word PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE: He has you have used. to apologies for using the word I ••• I against me. ( Interruptions) MR. SPEAKER: I again ask Mr. Faleiro MR. SPEAKER: What can I do? I say, to respond. you must apologies. ( Interruptions) [ Translation] SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE: Mr SHRI MADAN LAL KHURANA: Please Chandra Shekhar, this is the company you tell him to wtthdraw the word. He has not . are keeping now. withdrawn it. (Interruptions) SHRI KALKA DAS (Karol Bagh): What he has said is objectionable, it should be SHRI EDUARDO FAlEIRO: Sir, it was expunged. not my intention to use any unparliamentary word. But then I was shocked and the whole [English] House is shocked by the empty speeches which mislead the House. (Interruptions) PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE: Mr. Therefore. I expect Mr. Dandavate to Speaker. I am on a point of order. In the past. apologies for misleading the House and I for using such abusive language, Mr. K.K. apologias for that. Tiwary was sent out of the House and somewhere else he was brought to the bar of MR. SPEAKER: Mr. Faleiro has Parliament and was given a reprimand. When aj)ologisod. I have heard It. he is using such a word. he must be asked to withdraw it. (/nt8"uptions) PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE: Sir, do I take it that the hon. Member has apologised MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Please to the House for calling me a·...... '1 sit down. MR. SPEAKER: Yes.

SHAI RAJIV GANDHI: Mr. Speaker, [ Translation] Sir.ldid not hearwhathe said because of the noise. But if that word was used, I apologies SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES for my Member and I request him to withdraw (Muzaffarpur): Mr. Speaker. Sir. just now the it. leader of the Opposition has named me and said that I had approached him for his sup- port. PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE: Sir, let him apologies. ( Int9tTllptions)

MR. SPEAKER: Let us hear Mr Faleiro. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. please I still think Mr. Faleiro can make amends. resume your seat. 49 Motion of Confidence in KARTIKA 25. 1912 (SAKA) Councllof Mlnist.rs 60

SHAI GEORGE FERNANDES: Mr. me out. Madhuji had raised the question Speaker, Sir, he has said that I approached several times and it has been declared him for his support. I have not even talked to unparliamentary. (/ntemtptions) him till date. Dest'ile this, I do not know how he has claimed that I approached him for SHRr VISHWANATH PRAT AP SINGH: lending support in favour of our Govemment. Sir, instead of ' ...... ' I say 'untruth'. ( Intsnvptions) [English] 13.00 hr•. SHRI RAJIV GANDHI: Mr. Speaker, Sir, I did not say that Mr. Fernandes con- SHRI RAJIV GANDHI: We demand an tacted me. What I said was, Mr. Mirdha apology from him. Now we demand an contacted me. I said Mr. Fernandes tel. apology from Mr. V.P. Singh. He has used an phoned to Mr. Sharad Pawarin Bombay. He unparliamentary word. Just like Mr. Faleiro asked Mr. Sharad PawartocometoDelhito has apologised. he should apologise. (In- talk about the details. Sharad Pawarjiphoned terruptions) me; I said: 'yes.let us find out what is in his mind. He came to Delhi. he talked with him MR. SPEAKER: Please take your seat. and he gave us offers which we rejected. ( Interruptions) Let us hear him.

[ Translation] SHAI M.J. AKBAR (Kishanganj): I have seen personally signed letters asking for SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES: Mr. support. (Interruptions) Speaker, Sir. it would b.e a matter of great shame for him if I divulge here whatever Shri AN HON. MEMBEA: What is your ruling? Sharad Pawar and many other leaders of his ( Int9"uptions) party remarked about him while they came to meet me to discuss this matter. (InterruptIons) MR. SPEAKER: You please take yoor seat. Yes, Mr. V.P. Singh. [English] SHAI VISHWANATH PRAT AP SINGH: SHRI VISHWANATH PRATAP SINGH: Instead of the word ' ...... • I will say "'untruth-. Sir, I want to make clear one point to the Leader of the Opposition or the supporter of SHAt RAJIV GANDHI: It is not adequate, the Government. He has categorically said Sir. We demand an apology. that approaches were made to him that on 7th any compromise can be made to support SHAI CHANDRASHEKHAR: Mr. the existing Government. I categorically deny Speaker, Sir, may I very humbly request all it. It is a ...... ** ...... it is an untruth and he the Members to understand each other's must apologies for that. (lnte"uptions) point of view. I shall request specially RajivJi not to press this point because truth is get- SHRI JANARDHANA POOJARY: Mr. ting out and some people are feeling un- Speaker. Sir. He has used the word· ...... ' comfortable. You should have some sym- It is unparliamentary; it should be expunged. pathy with them. ( Intenvptions) SHAI VISHWANATH PRAT AP SINGH: SHRI H.K.L. BHAGA T (East Delhi): Sir. One basic truth has come to that even before •...... • is unparliamentary Madhuji will bear this split, for more than a month they were in

"Expunged as ordered by the Chair. 51 Motion of Confidence in NOVEMBER 16, 1990 Councilof Ministers 52

[She Vishwanath Pratap Singh] not taken any decision till that time. I told him to take some action. He persisted on me that touch. They did not discuss Bofors but they I should come soon. I told him that I would discussed how to split they Party. At least, reach there two days later. But he could not that truth has been corroborated by both. wait for two days and that very night a special (/ntenvptions) I am not yielding. I am in the plane was sent to carry me here from Dhulia Opposition now. district which is 160 miles away from Nasik. Shri Pritish Nandi was sent in that aircraft. Sir, I want to make it clear. H it was the After my arrival I told him that one should question of saving the Government, we could learn how to rule first. before ruling the have compromised with the BJP and we country. I placed two proposals before him could have saved the Government. But we one was to withdraw support from the took a conscious decision that we will sac- Rajasthan Government and to ask Shri rifice the Government but will not compromise Chimanbhai to sack the Ministers belonging the BJP on this issue. to the B.J.P. in his Cabinet as the B.J.P. had withdrawn its support from the Union Gov- So, it is very clear that there was no ernment. The second was to contact Shri question of saving the Government. With Sharad Pawar. I suggested two names but open eyes, we sacrificed the Government on h'e sent George Saheb there. When I asked 23rd itself. There was no question of saving him whethertherewas some hope he replied the Government. It was a question of saving that efforts were going on. When I asked who the issue. has been sent to contact Shri Sharad Pawar? He said 'Wait and Watch'. George Fernandes About feelers which you have men- spoke to Shri Sharad Pawar and urged him tioned, may I tell you, many Members of the to save the Government by any means. But Congress-if I were to take names, I can it could not be done. There is truth in it. mention many-contacted me saying, they were fed up with the leadership sitting here; SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: In the recent they want to walk out of the Congress. (In- political crisis, BJP has held together. Left terruptions) He has mentioned the name of Front has held together, and our Party held Shri Sharad Pawar. I do not want to say together. The only person who could not anything about what he said in confidence. hold his Members and who has split his Party and divided his Party. is Shri Vishwanath SHRI RAJIV GANDHI: let us name Pratap Singh. them. PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE: They SHRI VISHWANATH PRAT AP SINGH: are very happy about the break up of other's He should be careful about the feelers that marriages. That is the vicarious satisfaction he sent to us. It will not be quite safe for Shri that they derive. Rajiv Gandhi. He should be careful. Having placed before the House, vari- [ Translation] ous distortions and aberrations that have taken place, I would like to refer to a very THE DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER (SHRt dangerous trend that has come into the OEVI LAL): Mr. Speaker, Sir t there is truth in political affairs today. We have seen Lok ths matter. Nothing is hidden now from Sabha set up from 1952 up to 1989 and in anyone. A special plane was sent to bring 1990. But unfortunately ... (Interruptions) I am me here. At that time I was in Dhulia district. no1 yielding. I would like to point out to you My friend, Shri Pritish Nandi, because of the most dangerous trend that has entered whom I was dismissed earlier, was also sent into politics today. We havtl seen the lok there to bring me back soon. First of all, I was Sabha elections from 1952 onwards up to told on the telephone that Shri Advani had 1989. Also, we have seen the reconstitution 53 Motion of ConfidefJC9 in KARTIKA 25, 1912 (SAKA) Councilof Ministers 54 of various types of Ministries. Sir I do not after you learn from the experiences of these want to make any allegation against any people which they demonstrated in 1979. a individual 'X' or IV' here because that is not time may rome when we will have to share the tradition of this House. But please go to our experiences and come to a conclusion every lane and by-lane in Delhi today. Your about the future. With this note. as a com- go to journalists. You go to Correspondents. pulsion of duty and democratic norms, I You go to foreign journalists. They will tell totally oppose the Motion that has been you the most dangerous trend that has en- moved by my colleague and friend the Prime tered into the political set up today namely, Minister Chandra Shekhar. the horse-trading based on the sale and purchase that is taking place . MR. SPEAKER: The House stand ad- today ... (Interruptions) Sir, it is a very dan- journed for Lunch to re-assemble at 2.15 gerous trend with this horse trading one day. p.m. at one particular point of time. one Organisation may gain. At another point of 13.13 hr •. time. another Organisation may gain. But in the entire process the political party system The Lok Sabha then adjoumed for Lunch will be totally destroyed. Today. you ask till 15 minutes past Fourtsen of the cle:;#< Correspondents. of various journals. They will tell you what is the seat of power in Ashoka Hotel. They talk about the split. They talk about horse-trading. Hyou allow horse- The Lok Sabha re-assembled after Lunch trading on the basis of sale and purchase of at eighteen minutes past Fourtsen of ths people's representatives. remember that Clock whichever party survives and whichever party dies, the Parliamentary Democracy will [MR. SPEAKER in the Chait) definitely die in this country. It is a dangerous weapon, a double edged weapon. I want to MOTION OF CONFIDENCE IN THE warn this House in the end that as far as the COUNCil OF MINISTERS-CONTD. healthy political life is concerned, we have to take precaution to see that industrialist do [ Translation1 not try to teach us political morality. One industrialist the other day was saying while MR. SPEAKER: I would like to point out we were going out of Parliament. 'Iif you had one thing before inviting Shri Advani to speak. followed political morality. and changed your leader your Government would have been [English] saved." I said: "Gentleman, carry on your own industrial business. Do not try to teach The question whether there has been a lessons of morality to those of us who have split in the Janata Oal in terms of the T 9nth been in the movement for 40 years and Schedule to the Constitution of India and more. We do not want to learn political mo- other related matters are, as the House is rality from you. " The point is that institutions aware, under my consideration. I shall, are getting destroyed. Horse-trading is tak· therefore, request Members not to raise that ing place. Money power is having an upper issue in the House. hand. We will have to take nute of that. With our Prime Minister. I will just have a friendly Now Shri Advani to start. word. You are seeking the support of the Congress Party. You do it at your own risk. ( Int9rruptions) You will survive to see the experiment in the future. We too will survive to see the ex- periments in the future. Today. we are bid- SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE ding good-bye to each other. But I am sure (Bolpur): So, that issue is nullified. 5S Motion of Confidence in NOVEMBER 16, 1990 Councilof Ministers 56

MR. SPEAKER: Yes. Please sit down. SHAI A.N. RAKESH: Thank you Sir. ( Inte"uptions)

SHRI AAJVEEA SINGH (Aonla): Mr. PROF.P.J. KURIEN (Mavelikara): We Speaker~ Sir, only the member of the oppo- should like to know whether In the light of sition have spoken so far on the confidence your ruling what has been already narrated motion moved by the Han. Prime Minister. I by Mr. Madhu Oandavate will form part of the wish that some speech should be delivered record or not. In the light of your ruling, will by the members of the ruling side also. Sir, you go through that. let some one else speak in favour before Shri Advaniji speaks. (Interruptions)

[English] MR. SPEAKER: It does not follow from my ruling. SHRIl.K. ADVANI (New Delhi): I would again submit to you that an Opposition leader ( IntlJ"uptlons) has spoken against the Confidence Motion. In fairness to the House and for the purpose MR. SPEAKER: I will see. to proper debate. it would be appropriate if somo one who is in favour of the Motion [ Translation] speaks and then I am called upon to speak.

SHAI R.N. RAKESH (Chail): Mr. PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE: Other- Speaker, Sir, I have come to know just now wise let them declare that nobody wants to that my name has been mentioned in some support the Motion. (Interruptions) poster which appeared in connected with recent incidents in Delhi. MR. SPEAKER: Yes, I understand your point. That is why I am calling upon Mr. MR. SPEAKER: When was it men- Janardhanan to speak. tioned? [ Translation) SHRI R.N. RAKESH: On the 14th No- vember, Sir, my name appeared in a poster ·SHRI KADAMBUR M~R. though I am not fully aware of it. I know JANARDHANAN (TiruneIvCitIi): Hon. Speaker, nothing about it as I have not participated in Sir, on behaH of AIADMK and the people of any meeting at all. I am in no way related to India including the Tamil masses, I would this. (Interruptions) If my name has been like to support the motion of confidence mentioned in any such a poster, I request moved by Hon. Prime Minister Shri you to order a thorough inquiry into this Chandrashekharji. matter and take stern adion against those who have mischievously printed my name in I would request the new Prime Minister the poster. I am not concerned with it. The to create confidence in the Indian people. deeds for which I have been blamed fOf, They have lost their confidence in the last mlght have been committed In my name in eleven months and I hope, we are sure, the the poster. I condemn it. (Interruptions) new Prima Minister who has travelled out Bharat rlghttrom Kanyakumari to Himalayas MR. SPEAKER: You may resume your will be knowing the minds of the Indian seat now as your personal explanation is people, the poorer sections of the Indian over. people. They are stili suffering and I am sure

-Translation of the speech originally delivered in , .. Tamil. 57 Motion of Confidence in KARTIKA 25, 1912 (SAKA) Councilof Ministers 58 the new Prime Minister Chandrasekharji will But, today, with a heavy heart, I am scale upto the mark and create confidence in recounting the sorry state of affairs in the the people of India who lost their confidence State. The Indian Express newspaper has in the last eleven months. published a news item. Han. Prime Minister must kindly take a serious note of it. The I am sorry to say that Prof. Madhu opinion in the news item was not expressed Dandavate remarked that today is the sad- by an MP or an ML", not even by a Minister. dest day in India. But we hope that this is the It is the opinion of the Air Vice Mashal happiest day in the Indian history. In eleven Ramdas. The news item is under the caption months, the Government has been changed "Lankan Tamils let off by TN. Government." purely on principles of code. But these people It is about how the Tamil Nadu Government I the MPs who have been elected by the nakedly violated law by releasing the people of India are true and they stand by the smugglers held captive by the neval forces. Gandhian way and not by the other ways like The militants are being fanned out into all the the foreign powers. Without any blood-shed districts of Tamil Nadu by the Government of by just following the great democratic way, Tamil Nadu. Kamraj District, Chidambaranar the change has taken place. district and Hon. Muthuramalingam district where the activities of the militants are in full Thiruvalluvar, the great saint poet of swing and on the increase to the detriment of Tamil Nadu, says in a couplet which means peace. In such a situation, we place our you tell a word which cannot be won by utmost confidence in the Hon. Prime Minis- another word. But in the morning we saw ter Shri Chandrasekharthat a solution will be how the greatest leaders were quarreling for soon found to this problem haunting Tamil one word. Nadu for the past 2 years.

*Since we hail from such a glorious As far as religion is concerned, our tradition, we fell that the confidence which stand is whatever the religion may be, we the people have lost, has been restored by take all religions equal. the Han. new Prime Minister. Let the august House know that this Government which is *The Hon. Prime Minster who had un- being supported by our dynamic leader Hon. dertaken padayatra and won the hearts of Salvi Jayalalitha and Hon. Shri Rajiv Gandhi the people will definitely take steps to improve has in turn being supported by the people the present communal situation. outside who in 1989 rejected lock stock and barrel the Government presently in Tamil "Slr, systems of political management Nadu. have been changed in many countries in· eluding Russia and other communist coun- We are now fulfilling the wish of the tries. These countries have opted for de- TamiiNadupeopiebysupportingthis motion. mocracy which is thriving for centuries in India. ·Over the past 2 years, we have been placing before this House several issues for *Sir, I must take the opportunity of the consideration of the Central Government. drawing your attention to the very low stan· On several occasions, we had pointed out to dards of writing by 8 Tamil weekly. It is a the Incidents of disruption of peace jn Tamil reputed weekly. It says that the 525 members Nadu. These have fallen on deaf ears. The of this Lok Sabha fear elections. National Front Government turned a Nelson's eye to the whole problem. On the other It says "We are living in faarness; we do hand, they supported the Tamil Nadu Gov- not want to face the people. " I humbty req uest ernment to the hilt. the Hon. BJP members and others: Are we

*Traslation of the speech originally delivered in Tamil. 59 Motion of Confidence in NOVEMBER 16, 1990 Council of Ministers 60

[Sh. Kadambur M.A. Janardhanan] liThe readiness for negotiations has in- fused a new hope in the minds of the people. afraid of people? We are never afraid of the The earlier Government, in contrast, invited people. But the Press is afraid of the people. people with conditions for talks which led to The election held in 1989 was a battle be- so much loss of life. tween the Press and the People. The Press has won in the North and the people have Following Gandhiji, father of the nation, won in the South. not only the Prime Minister but also we, the MPs of every constituency must be ready to • Sir, the weekly I had referred to had face the people and talk with them. They drawn a cartoon depicting members of Par- may hit us. They may sold us. They may kill liament running away from elections. That is us. But we must have the tolerance to face not the truth. Take my case. I scared 2.75 them. lakhs votes in the last but one election and I scored 3.84 lakhs in the last elections. I am a follower of Anna and MGR. I am a poor man com ing form my constituency for Nearly I have secured 1.9 lakhs more the second time with a greater majority of than what I have secured in the last election. votes. In a Tamil Magazine, Anana Vikatan, all the MPs or Maharajas are criticised that ·We can only hope that as we are in a they live a princely life and are afraid to face pivotal position. our status cannot be allowed the people. I request all the leaders in this to be assailed by the Press this way. These House. imputations must be curbed. What is the ( Interruptions) state of affairs today in India. How many innocent lives have been lost in communal Let us talk only about the problem. Let and religious clashes. us not interlere. Let us have tolerance and patience to hear each other. Then only, will We have lost more people in the com- we be able to drive our country to the munal and religious clashes than in the sec- Himalayan success. ond world war. Are we not responsibleforthe lives of the Indian people? One more, I repose our full confidence in the new Prime Minister hoping that he will *We hope that the communal and reli- create confidence among the Indian people. gious clashes will be averted by the Hon. Prime Minister Chandrasekharji. [English]

Confidence has been created in the SHRt L.K. ADVANI (New Delhi): Mr. minds of the Indian people by the new Prime Speaker, Sir, I rise to oppose the confidence Minister after his visit to Sadar Bazar area in motion moved by Prime Minister, Shri Delhi. Chandra Shekhar.

We have confidence in you. He had told Today, as I said in November last when in he press that he would not take a vindictive Shri Vishwanath Pratap Singh moved his attitude towards bureaucrats and the Op- confidence motion, the debate cannot be on position Member. the performance of this Government because this Government has just taken over. For ·You have rightly said: that, there will be subsequent occasions when we can discuss-if today this Gov- "I would not stand on personal prestige ernment is able to get a vo~e of confidence as Prime Minister in negotiating problematic from the Parliament-how it has fared. how times." tt has performed. Today, we can think only

*Translation of the speech originally delivered in Tamil. 61 Motion of Confidence in KARTIKA 25, 1912 (SAKA) Council of Ministers 62

abut the nature of this Government Just as Janeshwar from the Ruling Party. I said last time in November, 1989. we can only debate about the implications of the SHRI R.N. RAKESH: II was when Mr. mandate, and our interpretation of the man- V.P. Singh was here. date and frame our attitude to the Govem- ment on that basis. SHRI LK AOVANI: No. in 1989. he was here and at that time. the principal When I oppose this motion,' have three spokesman, the opening batsman and the principal reasons, ona of which has been opening speaker was Shri Janeshwar. He referred to by my friend Shri Oandavate. I has also to go through his own speech at that hold that this Government has no popular time and find out as to what he said about the mandate. It is not only so. I also hold that the Congress Party, how corrupt itwa was, hawit formation of this Government is a violation of was dividing the people and pursuing the the popular mandate. That mandate, how- policy of divide and rule and on thai bass soever you interpret it, was positively anit- ruling the country for so many years. He has Congress. The Congress which has a to go through his own speech. I did not go strength of over 400 in the last Lok Sabha into it. And perhaps, everyone of those 63 or was brought down by the people of this ~ just do not know-who are supporting country after five years to a strength of hardly Shri Chandra Shekhar has reason to feel 190 and odd, may be 192 or 193. embarrassed.

AN HON. MEMBER: It is 212. (inter- AN HON. MEMBER: It is 75. ruptions) SHRI LK. ADVANI: All right. Every one SHAI LK. ADV ANI: Everyone knows it. of them has reason to feel embarrassed and Now, I do not know of any demoaacy where when you ad against popular mandate, you this kind of a change in the strength of the will always be facing embarrassment. Ant- Ruling Party in two consequent elections is one who acts against the popular mandate not accepted by everyone, including the will feel embarrassed. I am not going to say Ruling Party, as a rejection of the earlier what a mandate is though I reoounl so many Government. It was a positive vote- against definitions. Essentially, it is a contractual the Congress Party and so, any Govemment obligation that we have with our eledorate. formed with the support of that Party which But if you express confidence in us, then we, was rejected in 1989 just cannot claim to on the basis of this programme, shaD carry it have a popular mandate. This is obvious and out and we will be faithful to what we have patent. This is my first reason as to why I say promised you. H we have promised you that that my party cannot support this Motion. we are going to koep the Congress out of Regarding the immense embarrassment power, then I shaft see 10 it ... such a party faces. I need not elaborate. If we were of some research and go through DR. THAMBI DURAl (Karur): Will you the speeches made during last year by pJease yield for a moment? Members who are in the ruling p8f1y today SHRI LK. ADVANI: I cannot yield. I and see as to what they spoke about the have just started. I have not said ~ing as Congress Party and the leader of the Con- yet ... (1nt9lRJ1lions) ... A mandate is a con- gress Party, I am sure that we wil get nu- tractual obligation which every Member of merous samples of the kind that my friend Parliament and eYery Government has with Dandavateji earlier recounted and its leader the elector ale. Now, suddenly I fand that the Mr. Chandra Shekhar's observations about paJty which is in office today. instead of a the Congress Party and Shri ~ Gandhi. conIrad with the people, has a mntract wrh There are numerous samples. I remember the Congress Patty. I has been substluted that in that Y8fY Confidence debate in De- by a contract with the Congress cember, 1989. the opening speaker was Mr. Party... (lntenlfJlbns) 83 Motion of Confidence in NOVEMBER 16, 1990 Councilol Ministers 84

MR. SPEAKER: Mr. Rakesh please sit But the limitations are so obvious that any- down. one can see it and, therefore, it just surprises me that he should have accepted the situa- (Interruptions) tion.

SHRt L.K. ADVANI: In this case what First of all, this Government does not had happened was, when Shrl V.P. Singh have a popular mandate. Seoondly. it lacks resigned, this Government resigned,- the political legitimacy and the third reason which President called the Leader of the OpposI- I think is no less important is that for the first tion and asked him whether he was in a time, we have a Government in this country position to form a viable Government. If Shri which is not ideology-based, which is not Rajiv Gandhi has accepted the invitation and programme-basad either. I can even con- said: "Yes, I am willing to form a Government". ceive of Governments and parties-we have I would say that the Government that would seen them in the country-which are not have been formed would also have been ideology-based, which are not programme- without a popular mandate, but it would based, but which are very often leader- neverth8les~ have had legitimacy, because based. We have seen them. But in this case. it would be in conformity with the rules of the I am unable to include this party and this parfiamentary game. According to these Government even in that category. Of course rules, if any Government resigns, then the relationship is someone can say that the new Head of the State is obliged to call the Leader group is related to a leader, but the rela- of the Opposition and ask him: "Are you in a tionship is not acceptance of a leader, but position to form a Government?- And if he rejedion of a leader. Only to that extent, it volunteers: "Yes, I am going to form a Gov- can be called leader-based, otherwise I ernment", and he forms a Government that sometimes feel amazed to think of the people Government may not have a majority support who have abandoned, the J.D. how only the of the people, but nevertheless it would have other day a person in the Council of Ministers legitimacy t I fund that when Shri Rajiv Gandhi acting virtually his Home Minister suddenly met the President and came out to meet the crosses over and goes to the other side. How press, he very rightly said: "I have declined to does it happen? If a party of that kind forms form a new Government, because we do not the Government, can it really endure, can it have the majority mandate from the people-. really serve the people, because that is more This is precisely the correct thing to do. important? Therefore, if he said that. I respect him for that, but I do not respect him for trying to form I recall, that since sometime, there were a Government which does not have a majority ideas floating around; that why not have a support, majority mandate, but even lacks national Government. I respect the rules of legitimacy. This Government lacks political this House where we do not refer to certain legitimacy. What is the basis of this Gov- people in high offices. But it is true that the ernment? The Prime Minister himseH has idea was seriously mooted for the formation described ~ somewhere as being a Gov- of a NalionalGovemment. And the arguments ernment of exigency. Exigency is a good that were being given, I could appreciate word, but I would like to think that tt is a them. The arguments that were given were Government of expediency, not exigency. that the economy is in a very bad shape; the Nothing more. country is under external threats which are really very serious and abut which we cannot I just cannot conceive how a person like talk outside; besides, there is tension in Shri Chandra Shekharji could accept this. society of aU kinds casteist, communal, Not that I agree with all those who say that he religious, atc. In such a situation, if there is a will be doing whatever Congress wants him moratorium on political controversy, say for to do etc. I know him better than that, and I a period of one year, it will be in the best think that he would try to act independently. interest of the country. I could understand 65 Motion of Confidence in KARTIKA 25, 1912 (SAKA) Councilof Ministers 66 these atl;'Jments and conceive weight in year back. I feel it is high time that a parlia- them though I had pointed out the difficulties mentary committee review the tundioning of also but I cannot oonceive that because of that law. During the last 4-5 years, how has this situation a Government of the present ~ worked? After all, there have been several kind should be allowed to be formed. I could Committees to consider this problem of de- not understand that and I could not agree fection. There was a Committee formed way with that. I would only ask is this present back in 1967 or 1968 in which even Government, this kind of Government with Jaiprakash Narayan was thera. Shri Kunjru 60,63, or 68 Members supported by a partly was there and other very eminent people of 193 and certain other supporting parties were there. They made certain recommen- which adds up to 205 or 210 ... dations. Subsequently, there were two or three parliamentary committees which also [ Translation] went into the question. A law was enacted in 1985 recommendations. Now, it is time that SHRI MOHAMMAD SHAFI: It is 220. we go into working of this law.

[English] PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE: You were there during emergency. SHRI L.K. ADVANI:O.K.letus take it as 220. I am even ready to take it as 420. SHRI LK. ADVANI: Yes, I was arrested there. (/ntenuptions) [English] I may mention that when there was a is this not too fragile a base to build a Committee on electoral reforms we had re- party upon and is it not too slander a base to ferred to that. We also made certain rec- sustain a Government? How could I or my ommendations. I think now it is high time we party support a Government of this kind? go thoroughly into this question. On the one hand we should keep in mind that this evil of I was listening to the Prime Minister and defection is curbed and on the other hand the only point that he made in his opening the law should be such as enables the party speech was that he was not responsible for system to stablise. A point was made by the fall of V.P. Government. I do not disown Dandavateji also and I think that this is a my own share. Indeed I would have been matter which has to be taken cognizance of unhappy if in spite of withdrawal of my Party's by all; that you should not aJlowthese money- support Government did not fall. Therefore, bags, these big capitalists and industrialists I do not disown responsibility for the fall of to play havoc with the political system. that Government though I cannot justify the split of that party without any issue, without DR. THAMBI DURAl: Who are the any ideology and without any basic difference. Capitalists and industrialists who control over Whether it is the temple issue or the Mandai political systems? I would like to know whether Commission. members holding contradictory he can name any Member who has received views are on both sides of the fence. So, it is money. He should not make allegations like not any issue which led to the split. Reasons this. This is not a fact. He should tell us the are elsewhere. name of the Member who has received the money. Sir, before this debate commenced you made certain observations in respect of the SHRI SAIFUDDIN CHOUDHURY claim made by the two sections about the (Katwa): Sir, he has yie1dedto me. Mr. Advani split, therefore, I do not want to go into that at has referred to certain recommendations all. But because my friends Shri Dandavate with regard to the Anti-Defection law. I would has referred to the issue' would say that we Uke to know whether in those recommen- has passed this anti·Defection Law some dations on. of the recommendations says 67 Motion of Con/idence in NOVEMBER 16, 1990 Council 01 Ministers 68

[Sh. Saluddin Choudhury] same allegation had been made against Feroze Gandhi when he raised the Mundhra that the defector should not be allowed to scandal He rightly replied it on the floor of hold a ministerial post tor one year alleast.. the House.

SHRI LK. ADVANf: That was the rec- SHRI LK. AOVANI: The Federal Coun ommendation of thefirsl Committee in which of Switzerland has rejected the appeal made J.P. was also there, but those recommen- by the entities behind AE Services and ruled dations were not aa::epted, not implemented that the bank documents with details of some and subsequently the Parliamentary Com- of the illegal pay ofts made in connection mittee recommended the law in its present with Bofors India Howitzer deal be transferred from were not mentioned. As the law stands to the Indian investigators. today but it does not prohbit a person from becoming a Minister. The law also recognises Further ,his sensational development in the the fact of split. But there is a clear case for highest Court of Switzerland confirms, if review of the entire anti-Defection confirmation is necessary. that the amount legislationto ensure that defections which of 7.6 million doUars at 1986 rate paid by the are an evil, where a person is lured away Bofors to the AE Services was a bribe and 'rom a certain party on the basis of some ootwinding up charges as it was made out to consideration. is prohibited and on the other be-. I woutd Ike to appeal to the Prime hand if a party is in a position in which people Minister not to view it as a single scandal. He cannot work together and there is a split, that must view it in this manner that if at th& split is also recognised. How to do that is the highest levels of public life, there are pe~I-~J> problem. But when split takes place, if you indulging in maHeasance and getting away take recourse to subterfuge of various kinds with it, and the entire penal maChinery of thH then the problem does become complicated. State is engaged only in catching petty thieves here and there. The authority of the State This morning, the Prime Minister reacting would be undermined. After all this Bofors IS to what Dandavateji has said about Bofors a clear and patent case of gross and serious an unfortunate remark once again. The first financial maHeasance. About this, there can unhappy remark that he made was when he be no two opinions. Whoever is guilty, and said that this is a matter which has to be dealt whereever they may be. whether on this side with not by the Prime Minister but by a sub- oronthat. they ought to be punished. I would inspector of the police. He tried to explain also like to say that though this matter has that today . Today while explaining he went come three years back,constantly there has on to say that there were some people who been an attempt at a cover-up. In case of the ruling party was earlier in office, accuse think that the country's problem could be that sotved if they kept on chanting IBofors'. I am them of a sins of commission. With the NF Government, I accuse them of a sin of com- cenainly not one of those. But I do believe mission or perhaps lethargy. that Bofors is an issue which cannot be dismissed l~htIy.ltcannotbe shoved beneath the carpet. In the last 40 years, very often, the issue of political oorruption has been Buy so far as Chandra Shekha~j is raised in various elections and so many concerned. he is in a position to see the rackets have been taked about. but t do not whole thing with an absotutely open mind. know of a single scandal which has become so incorporated in the vocabulary of the SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE common man as the word 'Bafor'. So. I would (Bolpur): WiH he be allowed to do so? (/n- plead, particularly after today's decision by t9rruptions) the Court in Switzerland which says very clearly ... SHRI L.K. ADVANI: Today the leader of the Congress Party has said that they have PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE: The not spoken about Bofors at all. The Prime 69 Motion of Confidence in KARTIKA 25, 1912 (SAKA) Council of Ministers 70

Minister himself has confirmed that the issue this is not the job of the Prime Minister, I think of Bofors has never been discussed. I am Bofors is a good scandal, but this is not the going to accept the Prime Minister's word national problem to which the Prime Minister about it. I would request him not to delay it in should devote all his attention. That is what the least and in the next session on the very I want to say. first day all the Bofors papers must be laid on the Table of the House. He musj let the SHRI L.K. ADVANI: There are so many House know the truth.(/nterruptions) issues to which you have to devote the attention. This cannot be the only issue. I SHRI P. CH IDAMBARAM (Sivaqanga): wish to draw attention to yet another case, I am very happy that Mr. Advani has, one i.e. 1984 riots. In those 1984 riots, according year after we made the demand, belatedly to the Government's own admission, 2700 recognised the widdom of our demand and persons had been killed, yet a single had supported our demand that the papers be been punished, this certainly affects the laid on the Table. Shri V.P. Singh is not in his authority and reputation of the seat but I am happy that Shri Advani establishment.(lnterruptions) Only this recognised that the demand being made by morning, Shri Malhotra, Shri Khurana and the Congress for the last one year, is a Shri Kalka Das referred to the happenings in justified one. Delhi in the last two days, singularly unfor- tunate happenings. Everyone knows that SHRI L.K. ADVANI: I am happy to find the authorities had advance information of that the Prime Minister himself has landed the proposed procession. A Meeting had the demand made by me meaning thereby been held four or five days back where a that he is going to do it on the first day of the procession of this kind, in which the Musslims next session. of Delhi and the Sikhs of Delhi were called upon to participate and to highlight the "atrocities" being perpetrated on minorities PROF. RAM GANESH KAPSE (Thane): etc. I am really very happy that the Sikhs of When will there be a next session? Delhi have "ot associated themselves with this procession and all the representative THE PRIME MINISTER (SHRI organisations of the Sikhs have condemned CHANDRA SHEKHAR): Mr. Speaker, Sir I this procession. I am also happy that none of am glad that Advaniji has made my task very the responsible-even though I may disagree easy. I only hope that after putting the papers with them-representative body of the muslims on the Table of the House, the Government also have associated themsevles with the should not be accused that further investi- procession as such, day before yesterday, gation was not made possible. I want to though some of them had associated make this very clear. I have no intention to themselves with the first meeting that was conceal any fact, nor to save any person. I held where this decision was taken. That is will be the first person to lay all the information a happy indication. To that extent I welcome on the Table of the House because I was the s~uation. But I do think that when it has telling in the beginning of my speech that this happened in Delhi and It has happened is a matter which is agitating the minds of our immediately after four incidents are reported people and putting the whole country in the where Granth Sahib is burnt there from very embarassing situation. Punjab and one form Delhi this is a matter which should be taken very seriously. There 15.00 hrs. is a statement by the Governor of Punjab. I have no way of verifying it that Pakistan has I think that this country will be saved succeeded in sending some agents, provo- from this embarrassment. Whoever is found cateurs, into India who are up to mischief of guilty, should be punished or he should be this kind. This is a matter which should be brought before the people. When I say that taken very seriously I demand that a judicial 71 Motion of Confld8ncs in NOVEMBER 18, 1990 Councilof Ministers 72

[Sh. L.K. Advanij [ Trans/ation]

Inq~ry must be held in view of the happen- MR. SPEAKER: Mayawatiji, please take Ings In Deihl day before yesterday In which your seat. this particular aspect which has been brought out by the Governor of Punjab also should be thoroughly investigated. Because I am sure that Hsuch people have succeeded in infil- MR. SPEAKER: Please resume your trating into the country, they would be going seat, Mayawatiji. The speech of any member about doing mischief not only in Delhi but other than Shri Advaniji will not go on record. elsewhere also. Please take your seat.

I have one or two more points to make. ( Interruptions) Six of my colleagues visited Ayodhya three [English] days back and the kind of stories that they have come and told me are horrifying. I SHRI L. K. ADVANI: I own responsiblitiy. cannot believe that in a free India this kind of I did not say that it was Chandra Shekhar Ji situation can develop and particularly I fett who brought down this Government. I unhappy that the Prime Minister before he said :"My party owns the responsibility', be- had become Prime Minister, participating in cause I believe that the Central Government the Confidence Vote debate, the other day, was guilty of criminal mishandling of the defended the U.P. Government and the Chief Ayodhya issue, and the U.P. Government Minister of U.P. in a manner as if to say that was guilty of the worst type of atrocities. nothing wrong has happened and all that (Interruptions) I said ittheotherday also that happened was necessary. It had to be done. I now the responsibility. (Interruptions) I wish he could go through some of the video tapes that are available freely now-a-days MR. SPEAKER: Order please. as to what exactly happened, how it hap- pened. Those video tapes do n6t lie and you SHRI L.K. ADVANI: Two other issues would see that absolutely innocent, abso- are there. One issue was referred to by Mr. lutely peaceful Kar Sewaks or pilgrims were Janardhanan. Mr. Janardhanan referred to brutally fired upon, lathi-charged, tear gased the situation in Tamil Nadu. I think that the in a manner which has never happened Government owes it to the people of India to before. I can understand a violent mob coming take immediate note of that; and it is really a there, and policemen being forced to use the very serious situation that in any State, force against them. But there was no violence whether it is Tamil Nadu or whether it is of any kind people were absolutely non- Assam, militants are carrying on their ac- violent, sitting down and chanting Ram Dhun; tivities with the patronage of the State Gov- and they were brutally attacked by the police; ernment. (Interruptions) After all, we are And this is defended. I think that the Prime facing militancy. (Interruptions) The country Minister should Associate himself from all is facing militancy and terrorism even in that has happened ... (Interruptions) The Kashmir, even in Punjab. But no one can crimes committed in Ayodhya on the 30th accuse the Government that they are en- November and 2nd couraging militancy or encouraging terrorism. November ... (/nts"uptions) are an inefface- If arms are being supplied to the terrorists in abJe s1Igma ... (Interruptions) I am not Punjab or to the terrorists in Kashmir, they yielding ... (IntIJ"uptions) are being supplied by Pakistan. If training is being imparted to them, it is being done by I am not yietding.(/nterruptions} I am not Pakistan across the frontiers. But in Assam, yielding to anyone. They can reply in their I have seen video tapes, where training own turn. (/nte"uptions) f have referred to it classes, where training camps are going on because, as I said ... (Interruptions) within the country, even in Assam itself. And 73 Motion of Conlldenc» in KARTIKA 25. 1912 (SAKA) Councilof Ministers 74 how can the Government in Delhi reconcile that the temptation to act the puppeteer is with that? We cannot. And therefor. I would very strong. And so, for Chandra Shekhar ji appeal to the new Government-if it is able to it will be a persistent dilemma if he agrees to muster majority in the House and if it continues act as the puppet, the consequences would today-to attend to both. Tamil Nadu as well be extremely harmful both for the Govern- as Assam immediately. ment as well as the country. But if he refuses to act as a puppet his Government might One last point and I have done. I address come to an end. This persistent dilemma he myself to the new Prime Minister. Aftar all. would be facing with. I would appeal to him, this is the fourth minority Govemment this that even if his Government comes to an country has seen. There have been four end, at no point of time should he agree to minority govemments in New Delhi till now. become the puppet of a party which has The first was in 1969 when the Congress been rejected by the people, and this party Party was split; and at that time, though should be allowed to rule the country only Chandra Shekhar ji was not in the govern- with the people's mandate; not without that. ment. but even outside government he was very much part of the establishment; and it SHRI M.J. AKBAR (Kishanganj): You was by the support of the CPI that that counter your numbers.( IntemJptions) government was able to command a majority in this House. The second occasion came in MR. SPEAKER: Shri Devi Lal. 1979. exactly ten years later-when the Government adopted the same strategy and ( IntemJptions) the same devise and the same subterfuge that they have adopted today and made SHRI SAMARENDRA KUNDU Charan Singhji the Prime Minister of the (Balasore): I want to say something. (Inter- country. His was also a minority government ruptions) with the supporters being outside govem· ment. Then ten years later in 1989 came a MR. SP~KER: No, No. Please sit down. government which was thrown up by the I am not allowing you. people; It was a minority government. (In· terruptions) That third government was also SHRI SAMARENDRA KUNDU: I will just a minority government. It was suppOrted by take olny one minute. On this Bofors case two parties, two sections, the Leftists and the Mr. Advani has shifted his stand. BJP, who also had a mandate of the people when they supported it they did not go against MR. SPEAKER: What is this? I do not the mandate of the people. (Interruptions) allow you, please. Now in all these three cases, though the government that was a minority government SHRI SAMARENDRA KUNDU: Shr; was a ; it had a sizeable strength. But today Chandra Shekhraji told that if "I lay the Bo- the supporting party is nearly three times the fors papers then you should not blame me Rulling Party. for leaking out the secrets. But I want to say that the responsibility would be entirely of I would only like to caution the Prime Shri Chandra Shekhar and he cannot blame Minister that in a situation of this kind, where anybody. ( Interruptions) two partners cometogether .. and one of them is just one-fourth or one-third of the senior MR. SPEAKER: I am not allowing. partner; the junior partner is in the government Please sit down. and the senior partner is outside-the temp. 'tation to play the puppeteer is natural and [ Translation) very strong.' I am not accusing Chandra Shekhar jl of being a puppet. (/nt9nvptions) THE DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER (SHRI No; not at the moment. But I a~ only saying DEVI LAL): Mr. Speaker, Sir, our Janata Oal 75 Motion of Confidence In NOVEMBER 16, 1990 Councilof Ministers 76

[She Devi Lal1 Nagar is one and half lakh, but only Twenty thousand people gathered there and he came (S) Party is only one week old. We are-not to know about actual position of his seeking any support through you or this popularity ... (Interruptions) Mr. Speaker, Sir, House for our actions or performance, but please ask the house to allow me to speak. we are seeking support for the implementa- I started this move in the whole country and tion of ourwelfare programmes forthefarmers due to this move, all the people agreed that and labourers. I just wantt01ell you about our V.P. Singh would be our leader. Actually ~ Government that we had made frantic efforts was my strategy to gather the people. to form this Government. I convened a meeting against Congress and invited all Today, Shri Ram Vilas Paswan says people to attend it. We tried to finish Congress that he has created a world record by winning with the help of all other the ejection by a margin of Five lakh Forty Parties ... (Interruptions) ... 1invited different thousand votes. The same Ram Vilas political parties at Surajkund near Delhi and Paswan was defeated in Haridwar and lost tried to bring all the leaders at the same even his security deposit ... platform, but some of them did not like 10 come with us. I again tried to do the same at SHRI RAM VILAS PASWAN: You were Pinjore near Chandigarh. Shri Chandra also defeated in Haryana. Shekhar I Shri Biju Patnaik and former Prime Minister Shri Vishwanath Pratap Singh, Shri SHRI DEVI LAL: Then he again tried Ajit Singh and other colleagues were present and contested from Bihar. There also he was there. I asked him. He (Chandra Shekhar) defeated. It was due to the booth capturing says that he was not there. He asked me as by the powerful castes like Rajput and to who will be our leader. I told him that Shri Bhoomihar ... Vishwanath Pratap Singh would be our leader. Chandra Shekhar Ji said that he did ( Interruptions) not recognise him as his leader. Mr. Speaker. I told him that I also did not recognize him as Please at least hear me. I was defeated my leader and he is not a leader two times. now ptease sit down. even ... (lnt8mJptions) but we will have to appoint someone as Prima Minister. Every- MR. SPEAKER: Devi lal Ji, Please body agreed to this proposal. We took out address the speaker. processions at different places inthe (X)untry and everywhere I declared that Shri V.P. SHRI DEVllAl: Mr. Speaker, Sir, I was Singh would be our next Prime Minister. requesting to you only. He says that I was Actuatly he had no following and we wanted also defeated. I have contested elections 36 him to realise this fact. To show this to him times. Regarding Contesting of elections one of my relatives invited him and organised only the family of Rajiv can compete with my a meeting at Sangaria mandi in Rajasthan. family. Gandhi family havefought 16 elections This city which is about five miles away from whereas my family have fought 36 elections. my village has the population of only Twenty I have won in 12 elections. I mean to say that five thousnad. I asked my relative whether the people of every caste are equally im- he will be able to gather the people for public portant. We need barber for hair-cutting and meeting. I told that we intend to make V.P. shaving. poner for making pots, carpenter Singh Prime Minister of the country. It was I for woodwork and these people reside in who gathered people for his meeting and two almost every village. We need Brahmins for lakh people came to Sang ana and there I religious ceremonies. Every village has declared for the first time that V.P. Singh Brahmins. North India has been ruled by would be our Prime Minister. He had to go to Rajputs for 700 years and we can find them Ganganagar in the evening. I did not ac- in our viHages also. I had six Brahmin Min- company him. The population of Ganga isters in my cabinet in Haryana. In Faridabad n Motion of Confidence in KARTIKA 25, 1912 (SAKA) Councilof Minist9l'S 78

and Sirsa by-election I got only 5 per cent Ram Avdesh Singh who was a Member of votes. But after these elections I got 85 per Partiament at that time ans who is stiD an cent votes due to V.P. Singh. So, I thought M.P. and 1 myself launched a Satyagrah that we should have a Rajput with us to get here on 5th December, 19n. Chaudhary the votes for poor and backwards also. In Charan Singh was the Prime Minister and this WWf there will be no rigging in the elec- nearty seven or eight hundred people were tions. When he came with us a new wave arrested from here. The Cabinet meeting started and due to that wave in the whole had to be called to consider that issue, but country ... unforunateiy there was no quorum in the meeting and the credit oould have gone to ( Inttlnvptions) Charan Singh and not to him. I was submitting that if they had implemented the Mandai Mr. Speaker. Sir. you know that there Commission's report honestly according to were 542 Members in this House and five out our manifesto. it would have been a different of them were-Sardar Patel from Gujarat. s~uation then. I was the convenor of Mandai Prof. N.G. Ranga from Andhra Pradesh, Commission sub-Committee and this matter Ranvir Singh from Punjab and Haryana and was included twice in the agenda for cabinet one Mr. Badan Singh from Badaundistrict meeting. I told them that the States should and Or. Ram Subhag Singh from Bihar- and also be consulted in this regard and this the other 537 members were big industrial- matter should be examined properly. In the ists and wealthy persons. These people were meantune, 'was sacked due to Bofors issue. promoted and broughtforward in the politics. I came to know that I was sacked because of With the result that these 319 persons are a news regarding Bofors issue. But today, I now here as Members of Parliament and am not saying but newspaper are saying it. sitting in the Lok Sabha. They were not even I have written a letter to the then Prime able to become 'Sarpanch 9 of Minister in this regard: Panchayat. .. (Interruptions) What I mean to say that according to our parltical strategy, we projected V.P. Singh as our Prime Min- [Eng/ish] ister and not as leader. We prepared our election manifesto and NTR was also with 1 Wfllingdon Cresent, us. NTR and myself declared that there will New Delhi-11 0004, also be ceiling for urban properties of these September 7,1990. big wealthy persons as in the case of farmers ... (interruptions) I do not know My Dear Pnme Minister I Ambani by face ... (Int9"uptions) ... 1 .. , (In- terruptions) ... We declared our election Of late, I have been deliberately keep. manifesto and we wanted to serve the people ing myseH away from offering comments or according to that manffesto. One thing you reacting to Press Reports. However, I can- will have to accept that our ex-Prime Minister not refrain from giving vant to my feelings in had implemented the manifesto and issued regard to what the Press has to say about the a circular in the entire Secretariat that the involvement of Mr. Arun Nehru. assurances given in the manifesto should be taken into consideration-before taking any [TransJation] decision. Now, many of my colleagues are raising two points regarding that manifesto. The Mandai Commission Report was in- It is a very lengthy letter. I forwarded it to cluded not only in our manifesto, but it was the Prime Minister stating that now all the also included in the manifestoes of Congress Newspapers are associating the name of and BJP ... (/nt9ffuptions) ... We had agreed Shri Arun Nehru, So he should do something. to this in our manifesto. I would like to inform Later on, I wrote another letter and received you about the Mandai Commission that Shri its reply also. It was stated in the reply that: 79 . Motion of Confident» in NOVEMBER 16. 1990 Councllof Minlste,. 80

[Sh. Devi Lal] ments of Haryana Government won the elections. The people in Karnataka did not [English] mention about the achievements of Haryana Government in their elections oompaign. Dear Ch. Devi Lal Ji. Our party ronferenee was held at Banglars I declared that if our party came to power we I have received your letter of 7th Sep- 'WOuld give unemployment allowance to ev- tember, 1990. ery unemployed educated youth as we have given in Haryana. I call it pocket money I had The CBI is fully invesligating the Bofors announced that As. 100 should be granted howitzer deal including the documents as unemployment allowance to every edu- published in the Independent Bombay dated cated unemployed youth. While laying the 29.S.90, referred to in your letter. foundation staneof Sugar Mill on the Haryana foundation day i.e. on 1st November. You Let me assure you that there will be no will be surprised to know that Shri Bommai compromise on our commitment in this re- supressed this news from the press. In the gard. The law shan take its course. evening when we met at a dinner party, Shri Sommai told me that I had put them in [ Translation] troubie. He said that if they would give Rs. 100 as pocket montiY or unemployment al- I do not know what oourse the law will Iowanca that would spoil the youth. take and what course it will not take. (Inter- ruptions) I do not give much importance 10 What I mean to say is that the persons Bofors issue. It is also being pointed out that who propagated our ideas won the election the people's mandate was against the and who did not, lost the election. Shri Sharad Congress and our Prime Minister and other Yadav who did not have even clothes to colleagues say that they got this mandate wear became the Textiles Minister. Earlier due to Bofors issue. Sir, had it been so we Shri Sharad Yadav lost his security deposit would have also won in Kamataka, Andhra, (Interruptions) Similarly these are may other Tamil Nadu and Kerala Had it been a colleagues. (Interruptions) mandate against congress, then how would have Dandavate ji won in Maharashtra. SHRI SHARAD VADAV (Badaun): Mr. Dandavate ji (lntsnuptions) congress Gov- Speaker, Sir, he does not know. that I never ernment is there and the People of lost my security deposit. In Bodaun I lost by Maharashtra have given their mandate in a margin of only 30,000 votes. favour of Congress party. There is no doubt that the main reason behind the mandate SHRI DEVI LAL: I am talking about which we have received is the work done by Amethi Mr. Speaker, Sir how untrue state- the Haryana Government. ments are made by people even in your presence. You can ask ay one about Amethi. You have the election manifesto but it is Ask Shri Rajiv Gandhi,(lnte"uptions) I have not mentioned these as to what has been not said about Badaun( Interruptions) done is Haryana. The Haryana Govemmant have taken a decision that all the persons However, what I mean to say is that the above the age of 65 years whether they are announcement about the reoommendation rich or poor would be granted old age Pen- of Mandai Commission was not made with sion.1t is not mentioned inthe manifesto that good intention but with malafide intention As.300 should be granted to the poor Harijan and that is why it evoked pation wide protest 15 days before the dalivery of child but it is and agitations. I am not agaiAst the recom- granted in Haryana. Many other facilities mendations of Mandai Commission aAd I have also been given in Haryana and the would like to go one step ahead of the people who gave publicity to the achieve- Mandai Commiscion. Every individual cov- 81 Motion of Confidence in KARTIKA 25.1912 (SAKA) iJ..""oI AfnIIMnp ,lOt 82 ered under the Mandai Commission should place of Hilendra Desai. This thing has greatly get reservation but one family one job prin- disturbed them and they thought they did not ciple must be followed. Today H a person have any programme because their party Is belonging to Backward class or Scheduled a class of traders only. I can cite example for caste gets any Job. He manages provision of it. In Rajasthan they have 17 members from government jobs to 5 to 10 other members of local Banias. 2 Sindhi Banias and 3 Punjabi his family also where as the poor people of Banias. I used to tell Shri Bhairon Singh the same caste do not get any jobs. There- Shekhavat that his Government was not the fore, I 'would like to say that the principle of Government offarmsrs, only 2 Jats. 3 Gujars one family one job should also be adopted So and 8 Aajput MLAs are with him so would he that the benefits of reservation may also wor1< on the advice of these 13 MlAs or on reach the poor. the advice of 35 MLAs (Interruptions) Don't depend on these 35 MLAs (Interruptions) SHRISHARADYADAV:TeUaboutyour They talk about the money bag. They indulged own fam ily also as to how many members of in horsetrading and offered Rs. 10 lakh to your family are in service. each MLA of our party in Rajasthan (Inter· ruptions) SHRI DEVILAl: None of my relatives hofd any gazetted post what to speak of my What f want to say is that when our family members. You ask the definition of farmers and workers have awakened, they family from me but you tell me the actual have started using the money power. They definition of a family. That is a ieg~ position. say that Shri Morarji Desai's Government What I mean to say is that one member ot could not continue, when Shri Chandra each family should get employment so that Sheidi;:- was party President, because Ch. only some families may not reap the benefits Charan Singh waiktid ~!!! of the Government. of reservation (Interruptions) f would like to remind that when Ch. Charat' Singh went to Sirsa. two lakh people attended MR. SPEAKER: Mr. Ghavda please sit his rally and it created an apprehension down. it is not a question hour. among them that the Jat leader would win. I do not want that the same thing is repeated. Now we are taking the support of congress ( Interruptions) party but we are not sUPJX'rting the Congress party. Earlier we were running Congress Government. Shri Mufti Mohammad Sayeed. SHRI DEVI LAL: Mr. Speaker. Sir. some I.K. Gujaral, Arun Nehru, Satya Pal Malik of our colleagues are raising Ram etc. all are Congress men. (/nt8rruptions) Janambhoomi issue and are creating com- ... Shri Unnikrishna is also a Congress men. munal tension to get political mileage. Had What I mean to say is that till now we were the Ram Janambhoomi so dear to them why running the CQogress Government and now they had not raised it during 250 years rule of congress is running our Government. If a Britishers? Why did they not raise it during 40 burgler enter 3 the house. the owner can years of congress rule and 4 1f2. years rule of bring lathi from the house of any neighbour Shri RajivGandhi? How they want to become to beat the burgl&r. Our Government is not a Chakravarty Raja by taking out Rath Yatra. short term arrangement but we have created ow 319 Members have come to the lok an atmosphere in which the people can live Sabha with rural bad

SHAI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE -rile nation is in a whir~1 of aises, (8oIpur): Mr. Speaker, Sir, now we have crisis of confidence, aisis of character heard the entire Cabinet consisting of two and crisis of JeadelShip, a faO..out of the Ministers, and after having heard them, Sir. policies pursued by the successive and specially the speech of the Deputy Prima Congress-I Governments and particu- Minister, I am more convinced that the sooner larly by the Rapv Gandhi Government this Government goes, the better for the in the last five years. The Rajiv Gandhi country. Government which came into power on a sympathy wave promised a clean Sir, I oppose this motion as the con- Government, has scaled new heights tinuation of the so-called Council fo Ministers in corruption and inefficiency." with the grand number of two members without even allocated portfolios. will mean Now. within 11 months he has changed the continued mockery and debasement of his mind. I quote again: parliamentary democracy in this Country. Sir, this Government is founded on political '"Rajiv Gandhi's path to power was immorality, constitutional impropriety and marked by the violent deaths of thou- betrayal of the people of this country. sands of innocent men, women and children in Delhi and elsewhere in the Sir, this Government is the produd of country. Punjab is now a boiling caul- political expediency where personal ambition dron. What is worse is, the spectre of and avarice and abject surrender to forces of violence has now spread to several authoritari"ism have been given primacy other parts of the country. Not a single over national interests and at the cost of day has passed since his coming to secularism. Mr. Advani touched that point. power when scores of innocent citizens The Prime Minister has said. he wants to have not been massacred in various save the country from the aftermath (If what parts of the country." acoording to him, the misrule of V.P. Singh's Govemment and that is why he has come This was the judgement given by Mr. out and has taken the support oftha Congress Chandra Shekhar on the performance of the for the purpose of running the administration. Congress Government. Now, he must tell I would ask him, why is it not the other way the people and the country which manifesto round? Why not the single biggest party in he will impif:tment and on what ground. Has this Parliament have the political courage he jettisoned the Janata Oal manifesto? Does and honesty to take upon itself the respon- he sa!( now to the people of this country that sibility of the administration and why Mr. he has no obligation to implement what he Chandra Shekhar and his supporters did not had promised to the people of the country decide to support that Congress Govern- when he was elected? Will he say now to the ment? They would have had an working people of this country that his adopted God majority. No explanation has been given for Father. the Congr89s-l's policies and that. I would like to know as to what is the programmes will be implemented by his manifesto that Mr. Chandra Shekhar will Government? He has tot9l1 the people of this implement. Win he implement the National country. That is why. thewBl!Jthis Government Front manifesto on which he was elected or has been formed. say, it is nothing but an will he implement the Congress·1 manifesto aberration. It is a two-headed monster with on which his opponent was defeated in the nobody or limbs and it is a progeny of the last general elections? He must answer this. combination of the forces represented by Lal The National Front manifesto to which, I am Krishna Advani, Rajiv Gandhi and Chandra . sure, Shekhar. For about a week • what is the position in the country? We have never seen Mr. Chandra Shekhar was a conscious it since independence. For one week. we party says: have a Prime Minister and a Deputy Prime 85 Motion of Confidence in KAATIKA 25. 1912 (SAKA) Councilof Ministers 86

Minister, but no Council of Minister. For one toratas. On what basis. this Congress-I Party week this country has no Finance Minister, in a rejected Party? no Home Minister and no Foreign Minister, obviously because Mr. Chandra Shekhar SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE: Mr. cannot somehow regulate or adjust the claims Speaker, Sir. the law relating to defection in of all the ministerial aspirants in his party. this country is not a simple statutory law. It is There is no Defence Minister when ~he situ- part of the Constitution. It is part of the ation across the border is so serious. organic law of this country. Those people and that political party which have been Sir. apart from the difficulties he has shouting from the house-tops that they have within his own-called Party. obviously he has tried to clean the political life of this country, to get the dearance irrespective of those remove the impurities, remove horse-trading whatever public protestations may be from by introducing in the Constitution the provi- his supporters who are supporting him from sions relating to defedion. are unabashedly outside. We have seen a pathetic admission aiding and abetting a handful of persons for from Mr. Chand rashekhar-obvio usly we find the purpose of forming the Government in it in the newspapers, which has not been this oountryfor pure petty political ad persnoal denied-that because he could not find a int9rest. What the Congress Party could not suitable co-defector to beoome a Foreign achieve with the mandate of the people, they Minister of this country, he has approached want to achieve by violating the mandate of Mr. Gujraf. I congratulate Mr. Gujral on the people. That is why. they have bolstered spurning this offer of defection which was up a handful of defectors for the purpose of given to him. ruling this country now.

SHRI KALPANATH RAI (Ghosi): No SHAI P. CHIDAMBARAM: You gave a offer was given. ruling this morning that nobody shall mention or speak about the subject of split. He is SHRI SOMNATH CHATIERJEE: We touching upon the same subject. have seen the unique phenomenon of a handful of collaborators with no Party, no SHRI SOMNATH CHA TIERJEE: I have policy. no programme, no mandate, no ma- not (Interruptions) jority forming the Govemment of 1he country which is now facing a very serious problem SHRI CHANDRA SHEKHAR: I believe and in the same process resurrecting a Party reciprocity in politics. May I request my hon. which has been consciously and unreserv- friend, Somnath Chatterjee not to use the edly rejected by the people of this country. language which I may be forced to reply ;n Now that rejected Party and the leader of the the same way. rejected Party is occupying the driving seat in the vehicle of power in this country. SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE: It is not only unfortunate but also serious that in There is a blatant violation of the Con- his first appearance in the House, the Prime stitution of this coun1ry. Minister is hokfing out repeatedly threats to other Members, about the manner of PROF. MEIJINLUNG KAMSON (Outer speaking. This is the way the Prime Minister Manipur): Mr. Speaker, Sir, he has said that will bGhavef This is showing respect to the this Congress Party is a rejected Party. Earlier Housel Every time. he is threatening others! Mr. Madhu Dandavate has also said this. What I want to say through you is. that This law of defection is part of the organic congress Party has secured more than 40 law of the country. What shall we say when percent votes of the electorates of the country. the people of this country read in the news- Janata Dal has got less than 20 percent; BJP papers that one hon. Member from Orissa has got B percent of the votes of the elec- has admitted that he had admitted that he 87 Motion of Confidence in NOVEMBER 16, 1990 Councilof Ministers 88

(Sh. Somath Chatterjee) the "unacrupulous maMer in which the defections have been engineered had had been offered a vast sum of money for the shocked the nation.· antl-V.P. Singh camp. It has appeared in newspaper and has not been denied. Today In a statemet issued on July 22, Mr. that hone Member is found to have changed Chandrasekhar said that he would like sides. to -remind" the Conoress-(J) that "the course adopted by it of supporting a SHRt SAIFUDOIN CHOUDHURY: He Is government dependent on authoritar- here. ian forces was against the interest of the party as well as the Government. n SHRI SOMNA 11-1 CHATIERJEE: t am He exhorted the Janata Party members not mentioning any name. But I have got the to stand united to meet the challenges newspaper. Was there any before it,- denial?( Interruptions) SHRI NIRMAL KANTI CHATTERJEE MR. SPEAKER: Order please. (Dumdum): He was ten yearsbom immaturea at that time. SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE: In 1979, when there were defections and the SHRI SOMNATH CHA ITERJEE: I also then Janata Party Government fell, Mr. quote another statement: Chandrasekhar. as the Leader and the President of the thefi ~Ianata Party was "The Janata Party President! Mr. rightly and seriously conceFli~ about not Chandrasekhar observed here today only the fate oftha Party andtheGoveri;.~ent on 18th July. New Delhi, that the cur· but also about the future of parliamentary rant. crisis in the party was not due to d.iTtUC:'3C}' in this country. 'cannot but ap- any ideoioylca!dJfferences but personal preciate the principled stand he has taken at ambttfof1sOf.a few. Thera arli, however, that time. many who did not have such ambition but they had fallen a prey, "he added. On the 26th July, 1979 Mr. Chandrasekhar described the then Why am I reading out? Because he had President's decision to ask the rebel Janata advocated some basic principles at that time. leader to from a Government and I quote: He had objected to the manner In which the parliamentary system of Government had "as an extraordinary one which been undermined, and how money was tantamounts to putting premium on defec- playing its rote and how peoples mandate tions. was being violated.

He had described the President's de- cision as "abnormal- which may be I would most humble ask him "Is the misconstrued as a reward to those situation quantitativefy or qualitatively who had left the Janata Party .. changed today?" Today every time whenever such Governments are constituted, it is very Mr. Chandrasekhar on July 15 that easy to say that "I have to save the country year sharply criticised all those who from the effects of the rule of the previous had resigned "when the government Government. - But, what is the policy? What was faced with a no-confidence motion. is the programme? What is the economic He ~ad regretted that the dissidents policy of this Govemmant? What will be the had ·chosen to strike when the party policy with regard to Ram Janamabhoomi? was in trouble.-In another statement. What will be his policy with regard to Vishwa Mr. Chandrasekhar had remarked that Hindu Parishad's dacision to again renew 89 Motion of Confidence in KARTIKA 25, 1912 (SAKA) Councilof Ministers 90

Car Sewa at the disputed site? We would like tain actions following their change of Party or to know from the Government. loyalty did not take place. For the purpose of coming to the Gaddi they can openly go and 16.00 hrs. seek the support of the BJP. What has happened in Rajasthan? How has the Sir, these are serious matters apart from the Rajasthan Government been saved? Who serious situation that is already existing- the has v01ed along with the BJP to save the BJP danger of separatism, the danger of seces- Government there? J would like to know why sionism in Punjab, Jammu & Kashmir, the Congress which was so much strident in Assam, the grave economic situation, the its demand for the dismissal of Shekhawat danger from across the border when there ;s Ministry has suddenly stopped it after the a change of Government in PakIstan where BJP Government got the support from its fundamentalist forces have taken control new friend JD (Socialist). This is very clear. and when such serious issues are fa~ing the Therefore what the greatest danger facing country, what is the policy and programme of the country-apart from the dangers which I this Government? Till today, we do not kr.ow have already mentioned, which we are all about that. aware of-is a deliberate threat to the national unity and integrity and the creation of a Sir, Bofors is not adead issue. I am glad frenzied atmosphere by religious flJndn- that certain clarifications have been made. mentalist forces and the BJP's open decla- Even as a "umour, the Prime Minister of a ration of founding a Hindu Rashtra in this country cannot indulge in humour when se- country. rious issues are involved like the investiga- tion of Bofors case. It was very unfortunate to SHRI MADAN LAL KHURANA (South hearof such a humour. Today, we have seen Delhi): No. that the Federal Court of Switzerland has delivered its judgement and allowed making SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE: Slf, over of the papers to our CBI-the Central secularism in this country has never been Bureau of Investigation. We also know that under such a serious attack as at present. I the Swedish Goverrrnent had stated that would like to know what this Government premature disclosure of certain information would like to do in this regard. What would be would dry up and affect the further investi- the policy of this Government with regard to gation in Sweden. Therefore, mere disclosure this? I would like to know it from them. will not help the matters unless the Govern- ment makes it absolutely sure that it will not Sir, thA Ramjanmabhoomi·Sabri MasJld affect future investigation ad future controversy cannot be shirkd away by the ascertain ment of the persons who have been Government sayi:1g whatever has been done guilty of this bribery and corruption. There- has Jeen done because of the supposed fore, merely placirlg the records on the table mishandling of Shri V.P. Singh and his of the House will not do. Such records which Government. The danger has again come are placed at a time should not affect the up. On the 6th December, what will happen? further investigation in this matter. I would We do not know about it. That has not yet like to mention one other thing which is very been said. But sufficient threats have been serious. It is regarding how Shri Chandra given and it will only create further division Shekhar has kept his option open with the among the people of this country. Therefore. BJP. It has appeared in the BJP's Organiser this Government's policies and programmes of 15th November as to how Shri Advani's should be known. But now, I would like to good offices were taken advantage of or know from the Prime Minister~if Shri V.P. utilised by my good friend, by Shri Murli Singh had wrongly handled the situation. Deora who was sent on a mission to meet what is his solution for this? What is the best Shri Advani on behalf of Shri Chandra way and according to him, how it should be Shekhar and Shri Rajiv Gandhi so that cer- handfed? Would he permit the Kar Ssva to 91 Motion of ConiidenC6 in NOVEMBER 16, 1990 Councilof Ministers 92

[Sh. Somnath Chatterjee] and we will not even try to form a Govern- ment." be held on the 6th of December? I would like SHRIINDERAJIT GUPTA (Midnapore): to know categorically from the prime Minister They had no choice. about this. SHRI VASANT SATHE: Wait, wait. The As we have to fight financial corruption fact remains that Congress still continues to in public affairs, we have to fight political be the largest single party in this country corruption. Combination of persons and judged by any parameter. We talk of the parties with no common policies and man .,date of the people. Let us consider any programmes will not solve any of the basic parameter of people's support. The first pa- problems facing this country. This Govern- rameter is of the numbers. Consider tne ment has no political and constitutional basis numbers of different parties in Parliamel"t. and no mandate from the people. ~ must be The Congress has 195 Members. TheJanata ended here and now. And I can assure the Dal has 143, the BJP has 88 or 86 and the House that not a tear will be shed when this United Left together has 52. Kindly see, can Government goes as nis bound to go. anyone of them claim individually that they have a mandate from the people to rule this SHRI VASA NT SATHE (Wardha): Mr. country or the country's administration? No Speaker, Sir, we have heard today eminent one can say that. speakers, leaders of different parties on this Vote of Confidence Motion sought by a I would like to know from them. Did they Government which is only eight days old. do like th9 previous Janata Party where And, therefore, i thought that the attack of under Jayaprakash Narain's leadership and those who are opposing it would be based on Morarjibhai's leadership all the other parties some basic policy matters or principles. were merged together and one party was Abusive language, accusation etc., that we formed; a common manifesto was there; a have seen, has been there forthe last eleven mandate was asked from the people and the months and the country has already formed people did give a very cl~ar mandate in an opinion about the hon. Members of dif- favour of that party? Did these various par- ferent parties in Parliament. The basic mis- ties tell the people that if we are voted to take, misunderstanding, wrong appreciation power we Will form a coalition and we will with which the Government of Shri V.P. give you a stable Government as against the Singh- his party, the BJP and the United Left Congress? They did not. They had mani- Front-began, has been seen today and re- festoes of their own and they were asking for peated not only by hon. Shri Madhu support on the basis of their individual Dandavate but reIterated also by Shri manifestoes. How can they say then that Somnath Chatterjee. That was about the there was a mandate in their favour against mandate given by the people in the last the Congress? Because that is not how they elections. The mistake was in belief that it asked for the vote collectively. was an anti-Congress mandate. That is how they began. If the people had given any clear Therefore what happens now? The mandate in favour of a political party, one verdict of the people was that no party has would have said that there is a ·positive been given a clear mandate. But the single mandate in favour of some political party largest party still is the Congress. This is one against the Congress. But what happened? parameter-the number of Members in the Although people had shown their anger House. against the Congress Party yet we most gracefully accepted it and our leader at the All right. take another parameter. The vary first moment after the declaration of the percentage of votes given by the electorate result said: "All right we accept this verdict to different parties. Inspite of the fact that we 93 Motion of Confidence in KARTIKA 25, 1912 (SAKA) Councllof Ministsrs 94

got nearly half-a little less than half the that the coffers of this Government are empty. number of seats-the percentage of vote still (/ntsrruptions) He worked towards that ob- was more than 42-the highest and higher jective. Literally, in these eleven months, he than anybody else. The Janata Dal got 18% has squandered whatever was there in the the BJP got seven point something and the coffers and tried to see that it becames United Left got less than 40/0. Yet they say empty. This is proved by the fact that the that they have a mandate in theirfavourf This foreign exchange reserves have come down is the travesty of truth. from Rs. 5,700 erores to Rs. 3,400 crores. Now in the month of December, it will be Rs. Even then we thought, all right people 2,OOOcrores.ltwill not last for two weeks. He have not given us a clear mandate. Our has now declared. One can squander; but leader said, we accept and bow to this ver- you do not squander the heart and money of dict and we will give a chance to anyone else the ordinary man. The lastthing, commonman to form a Government. We also promised would ever do, will be to sell the ornaments that whosoever forms the Government, in (,f his wife; the gold of his wife. Mangala the interest of a stable Government, for the Sutras were given to this nation during the next five years we would give constructive Crisis of Chir war and you have the cheek to cooperation. We talked of cooperation- declare to the country, "I will even sell that constructive-as long as you work within the now."Today I thought, hon. Shri Dandavate framework and the preamble of our Consti- while speaking ... tution and the basic principles enshrined in the preamble. That was all the condition we PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE: Will you put. Inspite of that, what has been the sight kindly yield for a minute? of performance of the Government in the last eleven months, supported by the crutches of SHAI VASANTSATHE: Do you want to these two parties? In eleven months this say something more? Government literally brought the nation to the brink of disaster and anarchy. If anyone ( Interruptions) has been prophetic, it has been Shri V.P. Singh and Prof. Madhu Dandavate. Shri V. PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE: Sir, as P. Singh had declared publicly that if ever I far as our friend Shri Vasant Sathe's point is become the Prime Mlnister- because earlier concerned, in this very House, I had declared he had protested and told the television, the already that, that was in order to conserve Newstrack and everybody that he shall not and augmentthe foreign exchange reserves. become the Prime Minister, don't ask that We were formerly getting As. 250 crores question again and again because I have worth of gold from the foreign countries as alread}' told that I will not become the Prime imported gold. To those who wanted to ex- Minister, I will not contest and I will not port actually the ornaments, we were pro- become the Prime Minister and ultimately viding this gold. We stopped that import of when he was asked, suppose you do-then it As. 250 crores worth of gold and we decided will be a total disasterl (Interruptions) that whatever smuggled gold has been ac- tually captured, that will be sold to the gold- Sir, let the people feel that he is a nice smiths instead of foreign gold which is Person; honest person; sincere man; se"- brought. That will be provided in the foreign less person and does not want any post of exchange; and that will be sold at the price Prime Ministership at all. But he himself slightly above the international rate. That will declares, "If I do become, won betide; it will be utilised for that.(/nts"uptions) be a total disaster. He has now proved so. He has worked towards that. SHAI VASA NT SA THE: Sir, Ido not mind Shri Dandava1e trying to correct himself Sir, another forecast was made by h~n. retrospectively. But what we read in the Shri Dandavate. He has begun by saying newspapers was that. ·You are selling the 95 Motion of Confidence in NOVEMBER 16, 1990 Councilol Ministers 96

[Sh. Vasant Sathe] SHRI SONTOSH MOHAN DEV (Tripura West): Prices have not come down. They have come down. (Int9«uptions) gold to those people, belonging to the Re- serve Bankoflndia, to the Government. That SHRI VASANT SATHE: Naturally, that is what we read. If you want to corred will happen. (/nts"uptions) Afew moths back, yourself, you can do it we used to see unrest in the country-common retrospedively ... (/nt9ffuptions) man suffering from rising prices and unrest on account of rising prices. What do we see ( Int9rruptions) in the strategy? This is what pains us most.

SOME HaN. MEMBERS: Outside the AN HON. MEMBER: Mandai Commis- country. sion.

SHRI VASANT SATHE: Yes, not in this SHRI VASANT SATHE: The Govern- country, but outside the country, to earn ment headed by hon. Shri V.P. Singh played foreign exchange. That is what was said. the dirtiest trick, the most disastrous trick, That was the objective. Anyway, that is not gimmick, that anyone could ever play with the point. I thought that he would say at least the nation of plunging it in an emotional and a few words about the great performance communal anarchy-castaist and communal that he had done during the last eleven both-threatening to fragment this country. months as the Finance Minister of this Jinnah had fragmented it into two. Han. Shri country. But, not a word has been uttered. V.P. Singh decided to fragment it into 4,000. Kindly see as to what he has said. He said This is a gift to this country. Kindly see it and thatthe previous Government had increased today he talks of secularism. What can be the deficit to Rs. 11,000/- crores and that he more communal and anti-secular than to try would reduce it to Rs. 7,OOO/-crores. Today's to divide this country either on the basis of latest figure is that the deficit will become religion or on the basis of birth-based religious more than Rs. 14,OOO/-crores.(/nt9rruptions) entity called caste. H you try to divide this The Reserve Bank has said that it would go country on casteist lines which Manu had to even As. 25,000/- crores. This is about done thousands of years back. you become their performance. Please see the price another Manu again wanting to divide this structure. Everything in the country has be- country on casteist line and thereby worse come costlier. Commonman's life has be- anti-secular. communal man than this man. come miserable. There is not a single item that he could buy--edible oil, grains whatever Just consider. Sir, what pains the youth it is. You take anything. That has become of this country. sky-high. What does the commonman do? I had quoted this lasttime here, while speaking [ Translation] on the Budget: Both Mr. V.P. Singh and Dandavate had promised publicly that they Shri Ram Vilas, just think over it. Such would take firm measures to see that the incident occurred in Chauri Chaura during prices come down. Normally during Sep- the time of Gandhiji. tember-October, the prices used to come down. This time what has happened? Even [English] in this period, the prices have gone up with the result that today you have touched the Thera wasona incident of Chauri Chaura CPI more than 10.5 per cent- double-digit. in 1921 during the national independence The wholesale price index has gone to 9.7 movement and Gandhiji withdrew that entire per cent. The previous Government does movement saying, "There is something not feal concerned about the economic wrong. Probably, we have madea Himalayan situation. blunder.aHa withdraw that movement. Pandit 97 Motion of Confident» In KARnKA 25, 1912 (SAKA) Councilof Ministe" 98

Jawaharlal Nehru was angry .(Interruptions) ( Int9rruptions) Kindly S88 here is a leader. 180 young children immolated themselves, burnt them- MR. SPEAKER: Mr. can only try. It;sup selves. You are not moved at all. You do not to the Members. feel that there is anything wrong. You do not try even to persuade them, talk to them: Why ( Interruptions) are you doing all this?( Int8rruptions) MR. SPEAKER: Mr. Sathe, I am not SHRI RAM VILAS PASWAN (Hajipur): limiting you.

Mr. Speaker I Sir, he has mentioned my name in his speech. I do not want to ask any (Interruptions) question but I want some information from Shri Sathe because he hails from SHRIMATI GEETA MUKHERJEE Maharashtra. Have we committed any crime (Panskura): Sir, I do not agree. (Interruptions) and sin by providing relief to the backward, downtrodden and minority? Will he tell us as SHRI VASANT SATHE: As far as this to why the Maharashtra Government have question is concerned, I think. Mr. Devi Lal announced to implement the recommenda- has given a very fitting answer to you. You tion of the Mandai Commission? (Interrup- better search for another constituency now tions) We had a tark with the Karnataka because you are not going to get the same Government on it ten months back. What constituency. So, I need not go into that Shri Rajiv Gandhi had said in Madr~s In the question. presence of Jayalal~ha and AIADMK work- ers? He said that he fully supported the [ Trans/ation] recommendation of Mandai Commission. He criticised as to why it was not being h is not the question of helping the poor. implemented in educational institutions. Shri Your intention is malafied. Your intention is Rajiv Gandhi is present in the House so he not clear. should clarify whether he support it or oppose it. You should tell us about Maharashtra. You [English] should also reveal your thinking about Sharad Pawar. Is he Casteist or It is cheap gimmick to get votes. And the secular ... ?( Interruptions) worst things has been done in what had happened recently in the communal riots. [English] Sir, I am amazed that our Leftist Parties friends who are here, for 11 months up till MR. SPEAKER: In the morning. we had now, were sleeping partners with the BJP. agreed that the debate might conclude and Every time they were shouting and supporting the Prime Minister would reply at 3.30 PM. the Government and shouting against us. Now, I find that already it is over 4 PM and a Now, what has happen&d? And today number of speakers havegiven their names. mornging, wesawyou ... (Interruptions) ... As Therefore. if the House agrees, the discus- I have said in the beginning, all that has been sion may conclude at 6 PM and the Prime said, unfortunately, is anti-Congressism. I Minister may reply at 6 P.M. and voting. if would like to know whether there is any basic required, may take place at about 6.30 or 7 difference among the Congress Party poft- PM. If it is acceptable to the House, I request cies, the Janata Party policies and the poli- aU the Members to limit their remarks to five cies of the Left Front so far as the principles and progressive policies dedicated for the to six minutes. welfare of the people for growuth, for social- ism and for secularism are concerned. I can ( Int8ffuptions) understand that the BJP has differences on certain respects particularly on Article 370, SEVERAL HON. MEMBERS:5 O'clock. 99 Motion of Confidence In NOVEMBER 16, 1990 Councllof Ministers 100

[She Vasant Sathe] [Eng/ish] Ram Janambhooml, etc. Unfortunately Sir, 8S tar as the BJP is ooncerned, their history I do not want to give the name of the stops with Aurangazed ... (Interruptions) ... If han. lady Member. you see that latest cassette and hear the latest cassette by one of your most eloquent [ Trans/ation] lady speakers, you will find that the history end with Aurangazeb. And therefore, what- Listen, these are the words of woman ever was done by Aurangazeb and his pre- memberfrom your party that Gandhi brought decessors must be undone now after 300 or the ruin. You listen it, it is the voice of a 400 years. This is, in short, their person from B.J.P. philosophy ... (Interruptions) ... Sir, if they want to divide this country, I would beg of them to SHRI RAJVEER SINGH: From B.J.P.? consider whether by this movement are they No mention the name, please. going to provide one single job to an unem- ployed young man in this country. are they HONOURABLE MEMBER: Ums going to provide any growth in the edible oil AN or the necessities of life required by the Bharti. people. For what are you provocating the mi~~ people? To fight for what? Emotionally, in SHRI RAJVEER SINGH: You are r the name of religion, you are acting contrary leading the hours it is not Uma Bhart!'s Vt'1 ! • not the entire ethos and cultural heritage of India. He is talking of "Vasudhaiv SHRI MADAN LAL KHURANA: We ars Kutumbkam" I am really surprised that those bringing the 'Rama Rajya' of Mahatma who talk in the name of Hindu culture and Gandhi. heritage are going totally contrary to the basic tenets as propounded by Swami [English] Vivekananda. SHRI VASANT SATHE: I would like to know from our leftist friends, what is the Just read Vivekanand and you will know strange alignment they have discovered how he propagated the unity of Islam and suddenly with the BJP. Which policy do they Hinduism. He said the soul of Hinduism and want to pursue now? Today, the question is: body of Islam must be What did the people want? They gave the synthised ... (Interruptions) These people mandate for five years. They said: "We want sometimes talk of Vivekanand, but when it is you, the leaders of various parties to give us not oonvenient to them, they forget him. a stable Government which will solve our They are willing to swear by Gandhi, go to economic problems, and the problems con- Rajghat, but In their tates speeches these cerning our day to day life." This is the days they have said that Gandhi is also minimum that the people of this country irrelevant. These are the words used by expect from their elected representatives ... them. (Interruptions) [ Translation] [ Translation]

SHRI MADAN LAl KHURANA: Rajlv the only difference is that Bajpaiji has said Gandhi and not Gandhi brought it. that the army of Rama went to lanka to defeat Ravana and their army returned to SHRI VASANT SATHE: No, Mahatma Ayodhya instead. Ayodhya itself means Gandhi's name was mentioned. (Interrup- where there is no war and these are the first tions) people, the sons of the soil, modern monkeys 101 Motion of Confidence in KARTIKA 25, 1912 (SAKA) Councilof Ministers '02

who reached Ayodhya with stones to set it sinceretyand in his honesty, he betrays you. aflame. Rama had not done so. There is a famous saying in Sanskrit:

SHAt RAJVEER SINGH: You don't know ''Ankam aaruhay suptam hi, history. First you read it. This has already hatvo kim nama paurusham. " happened there sixteen times. Now it hap- pened for the seventeenth time. (Interrup- [ Translation] tions) If you kill or slay a person who slumbers SHAI VASANT SINGH: I would like to on your shoulder in good faith, it is neither say that the primary duty of the Members of fortitude nor manliness. Parliament elected by the people is to ensure that the people get a stable Government, a [English] Government believing in the progressive policies enshrined not only in their manifesto, This is what V.P. Singh has done to but also in the Preamble of the Constitution, Rajiv Gandhi and our party. and therefore, such a Government for a period of five years must be assured. It is a PAOF. MADHU DANDAVATE: That is sign of sagacity shown by the Congress that way you did to Charan Singh. we have not talked of untouchability. Right from beginning we said that for Mr. V.P. SHRI VASANT SATHE: No, we did not Singhtherewas no love last. Hewasourown do that (Interruptions) man, whom, we had trusted so much. [ Translation1 [ Translation] SHRI DEVI LAL: Tell them what was Where should we go to complain. The done to me (Intsrruptions) person we trusted as ourfriend. deceived us. We had made him number two. We had [English] really such a good opinion for a person whom he called his mother. Do you know SHAI VASANT SATHE: Habits dies what has pained me most. Vishwanath Pratap hard. A person's nature continues to be the Singhji? It is this that you have these days same. You have also seen the result. An that never uttered the name of Indiraji. we were saying in these days was that this gentleman who was with us, as Devi Lalji [MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chai~ rightly said

16.35 hrs. [ Translation]

You take names of all great leaders but Congressmen were running the the woman who made you what you are Government. .. (Interruptions) ... we only said today and did virtually everything for you- that save this country from this madness, the she gave you the membership in fact she country is being cast into fire of madness. gave you everything-and you used to call Save us from this and ask these people to her mother, you have never taken her name. resign so that new people are elected. We I have not forgotten the AICC meeting where are happy jf Madhu Dandavate would be you said- after Ram and Krishna if there is elected. We were only saying that anybody anybody it is Rajiv and I am totally devoted may be elected. You elect any person of your and loyal to his and I shall remain totalty loyal choice but they should be removed.· You and devoted to him." These are your words may elect the Home Minister Mufti but what happened. You trust such a person Mohammad Sahib, who is present hera. H and you think that you believe him in his you could have done this all the one hundred 103 Motion of ConfidenC9 in NOVEMBER 16, 1990 Council of Ministers 104

[Sh. Vasant Sathe] Party. We have absolutely no quarrel withit and we are not going to interfere in any away forty five members of your party would have with what he does. He is totally free. been remained united .. .(/nterruptions) Those of you who are in the BJP, who AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Devi Lalji had agreed to support (he Janata Party on could be elected. (Interruptions) the basis of that policy, why should you not reconsider you stand? Your issue is very SHAI VASANT SATHE: Devi Lalji had small. You are concerned mainly with the refused, Even today he has said that he was Ayodhya Problem and if that is solved, I think ready to step down on the condition that you should not have any other problem. Parliament would be dissolved. He wanted that all these people should resi~il from their [ Trans/ation) membership. Later on Devi Lalji said that they can't come back if they are not elected Advaniji, then you will not have any as Members. This was done only to putthem other problem. Then what about the Left? I in difficulty. Even today we say that a stable have no doubt, the Left will never want to be Government should govern our country. We left out. If the Janata Party under the lead- are not doing in it delibrately and our party ership of Chandra Shekharji gives a stable leader has said that we are not in a hurry and and progressive government based on those we don't itend to join the Government. We policies which are keeping in line with the will come only through mandate policies of the Leftists, why should they not ... (Interruptions) ... There is no question of support him? Why should they not support renunciation in this ... (Interruptions) ... unless they have some other purpose? Your purpose is that you can abuse us. Your [English] policy is only anti-congressism. We are not forming the Government. We are quite happy I tell you, we are very honest in this to stay out of the whole thing. You support to matter. Right from the beginning we have stay out of the whole thing. You SJpport. been saying that we do not have the mandate Come along and do it. We do not mind. Give to form the Government on our own, there- us a stable government and save this country fore, there is no question of our forming ti)e from madness. That is all that we are re- Government. Whenever people will give us questing. That is all we have been saying. the mandate we will take up the responsibility. That is all that the people of this country, But, today we not want the country to be particularly the youth of this country want. plunged in a communal anarchy. The President also said it in a communique and That is why we are supporting this I should not quote the President. But, today Government. the situation is such where one man is on the Rath Yatra-on the pivotal Rath-and the an- SHRIMATI GEETA MUKHERJEE other man wants to plunge the CouAtry on (Panskura): Sir, I crave the indulgence of casteist carnage. This is not a correct at- you and the whole house because this IS mosphere in which fr~e and fair elections likely to be last speech in the Parliament. can take place. That is what the President hImself has said in the commllnique. I want to place before this House why my party is voting again the Confidence Therefore today the cond~ion ,s that we Motion, the main reason behind this is that must try to ensure a stable government and the proposed Government do not enjoy a progressive government. And the policy people's mandate and ~ is formed b un- that would be pursued is entirely for Chandra scrupulous defectors. Shekharji. It may be the policy which he has accepted in the manifesto of the Janata We have given an amendment which 105 Motion of Confid911C9 in KARTIKA 25. 1912 (SAKA) Councilof Ministers 106 the Speaker himself in this wisdom rejected My next question: it may not oonoarn aJready. But in any case I shall read it out. him alone, but some others as well. The Instead of 'Council of Ministers'. the words Bengali daily I Aajkal' reported that in the should be 'Proposed Coun~iI of Ministers'. then prevailing fish market, which is here generally referred to as the hourse-trading On 7th November on the day of the market, there were transactions upto Rs. 5 motion of confidence in Shri V.P. Singh's crores per head, for purchasing some Government. I was surcharged with emotion honourable gentlemen. I am yet to see an and you yourself and a large number of contradiction of that news. In that case, was members here were worried and appealed it a fact, and can anybody say what the price tome several times not to be 50. I could not is, now? respond to those affectionate appeals for which I apologise now. My fourth question to Shri Chandra Shekhar: will he do away with the Industrial Sir, today I want to remain as calm as Policy which was adopted by the earlier possible and want to put just a few questions Government? Will he follow a policy based to the different political leaders, Who I find on seft-reliance, commanding heights forthe are all present here. It may be my good public sector and curbing multi-nationals in fortune. Sir, I will not try to answer anybody the sphere of goods which can be produced today. I will just ask a few questions. First, a in our country? Of course, the previous fewquestion$ tothe present 'proposed' Prime Government failed to check the price rise. Minister. I have learnt about an episode from Does Shri Chandra Shekhar expect that he one who should know-which I want to re- can rectify the s~uatlon? late. Hwhat Ihave heard is incorrect, I expect the proposed Prime Minister to say so, at the Last, but not the last, is the question of time of his reply. Some of you surely know Ram Janam Bhoarni and Babri Masjid. What that the late Bachwan Singh of Bihar who will be his policy? died some months ago, was a member of Shaheed Shagat Singh's Hindustan Re- The third qUElstion to him is about the publican Army, and had to spend 17 years in fate of the Bofors case. Since already a lot danda beri i.e. in shackles during the British of discussion had taken place on it, I do not days. Before his death, when Chandra want to re1er to it again. I only appeal to the Shekhar ji went to meet him, Shri Sachwan nation to keep a vigil on the points raised by appealed to him: "Chandra Shekhar ji, i.e. me here. 'Whatever happens, don't break the party.' To this, the proposed, Le. the present Prime Now. a question to hone Shn Lal Krishna Minister responded: Advani. let me, first of all, make it clear that whatever I am saying I never had any dis- 'What has the party given me, that I cussion about it w~h Shri V.P. Singh nor did should keep it in tact' Is that a fact? Itry to know about it from him. It is all my own inference. On 29th October at the oonclusion of a padayatra for communal unity- The second question is the same as organised by my party in Calcutta, a written what I had asked on the 7th November. r was speech of mine was read out at the public excrted more then, and so it could not be meeting at Behaghata because I was too iJlto heard by many, in that din and bustle. ff the speak myself. Incidentally. Beliaghata was han. proposed Prime Minister was so oon- the place where Gandhiji had fasted in 1947 cerned about high prices due to the then for an end to communal nots. I had the proud Government's failure. wh did he not at that privilege of being one of the participants of a time join the movement against price rise huge demonstration of students which went conducted by all the left parties and thereby to Beliaghata to give backing to him. A number strengthen it and help the poor? of Bengali Papers quoted parts of my speech 107 Motion of Confidence in NOVEMBER 16, 1990 Councilof Ministers 108

{Smt. Gaeta Mukherjee] SHRIMATIGEETAMUKHERJEE:Afew questions new to the former Leader of the where I had stated, on the basis of some Opposition, Rajiv Gandhiji. reliable Information, that in a meeting of the Vishwa Hindu Parlshad workers held in Delhi, SHRI L.K. ADVANI: I deny totally. awkward questions were raised as to how rupees three hundred crores collect~ for SHRIMATI GEETA MUKHERJEE: the construction of Ram Tample in Ayodhya Former Leader of the Opposition Rajiv had been distributed. The VHP leaders had Gandhiji, the most powerful back seat driver quitened their angry workers by promising of the new minuscule Government. On the that the money question would by satisfac- 7th November, he lamented that during the torily settled in the future. However. for the anti-reservation movement many young lives present, a lesson must be taught to Shri were lost due to the failure of Vishwanath Advani for his audacity in conducting his Pratap Singhji's eleven month old Govern- Rath Vatra with BJP's party symbol and flat, ment. Doubtlessly, these deaths are la- ignoring the VHP. Afterwards, the five mentable and Parliament proceedings of Shankaracharyas were seen on the TV on either the 2nd or the 3rd October will show 16th October at Vishwanath Pratapji's resi- that I was the first person who raised this dence. It was learnt that they communicated matter of thes~ sad deaths in this House and a proposal to the then Prime Minister that appealed to all parties to issue a joint call to they would jointly make a public appeal to the students, either pro or anti-reservations, Shri Advani to stop his Rath Yatra in the to shun the path of violence. I also appealed interest of the nation. But the next day t all the to the Government to talk with the leaders of media reported that the talks had failed; the the anti-reservationist movement. Unfortu- Shankaracharyas were returning to their nately, none paid heed at that time to the respective places. And then we found that on appeal of this poor soul. that very day, Advaniji also happened to be in Delhi-Advaniji remembers our conversa· But may I ask Rajivji, while making this tion. I believe-and the VHP and BJP lead- criticism, did he even once remember how ers all started taking in one voice. So my many precious lives were lost due to the question is, was Advaniji's presence just a poiice firing during the four decades of post- coincidence or did it have anything to do with Independence India, in which his party was the failure of the efforts of the in the saddle for most of the time? Shankaracharyas? Was there any blackmail involved regarding the disposal of the huge Another question to him, partly already funds? This question raised in my speech addressed earlier to the present Prime and reported in the Press in CalcUtta, has Minister. Was it not his Government, which, neither been answered nor my inferences immediately after their installation rushed to contradicted. pass the Anti-Defection Law with highly moralistic rhetorics. Leaving aside the I fully realise the difficulty of Vishwanath question of arithmetic, what does he now Pratap Singhji to reply as he still hopes that have to say about the morals of those today there will be an amicable settlement of the invovled in engineering the 'Aya Ram Mandir-Masjid dispute. I myseH. my party Garyaam' business on the eve of the 7th and for that matter I believe that most of the November and also after-wards? Doubt- peace-loving people of ourcountry also want lessly. a huge amount was involved. May I a negotiated settlement or adhrence to the ask where this money came from? Is it not courts· verdict. And, from that very concern the money fleeced from the ordinary people may I ask Advaniji either to confirm or con- by the black-marketing barons? tradict? Last but not the le8st, another question SHRI L.K. ADVANI: I deny. to Rajivji. During my countless interventions 109 Motion of Confidence in KARTIKA 25, 1912 (SAKA) Councilof Minist.rs 110

on the debate on the 7th Novtiimber I had that the necessary papers could not b9 traced, already aaked him whether he had forgotten although those were submitted by me earlier. the secular traditions of his illustrious grand- On that fateful day of 7th November I myself father? Has he any explanation for the fad rushed to his office and again handed over that at the time of the last election in the the necessary papers personally to him. Faizabad constituency form where Shri Mitra Despite his promise, there was no action till Sen Yadav of CPI was elected, had not the the former Government fell. I wanted to know BJP candidate withdrawn in favour of the from Rajivji whether such officer who played Congrass{l) party's candidate? Did he object with the IHe of a very young girl just because or encourage? of political vendetta, would be punished? I gave his name and designation to Rajivji. I 17.00 hr•• believe Rajivji himself will bear me out.

Is it also not a fact that when, in this very It would be unfair on my part if I do not House, I had demanded the arrest of the mention here that Rajivji offered to bear the Shankaracharya of Dwarkapith and denun- entire expense for the patient. Sine& I could ciation of a Congress (I) leader of East Delhi manage to collect the necessary slim through for participation in a VHP Press Conference. the efforts of the friends, of the patient, from Satheji moved a privilege motion against me the help of the then Health Minister of the and my privilege motion against Mr. Kurien is Central Government Masoodji, my own still pending. And may I appeal also to him in contribution and the help from the West all sincerity at my command to lead his party Bengal Government, I thankfully decJined In the spirit of secularism to which his Party his offer. IS formerly committed no only in words, but also in deeds, as followed by Panditji, on But I shall still await his action on my whose grave Rajivji and many others placed main oomplaint. And I leave It to the news- wreath only day before yesterday? papers to decide what ethics they should follow. That is no my business. Now a question to several .Ieading newspapers who were kind enough to give Sir, without taxing the patience of the unusually prominent publicity that on the 7th House any longer, I would like to conclude November Gaeta Mukherjee rushed to Rajivji, with two quotations from two of Bengal's broke down in tears, and Rajivjl consoled greatest sons, Kazi Nazru1 Islam and her. Probably I should thank them for such Vishwakavl Rabindrnath lagore. attention. But did anyone them enquire from me what was the issue involved? Since they Firstly, from Nagrul- did not, may I now inform them and the House the reason why I rushed to him? As aPhansir Manche geye gele jara jiboner his party would now be the main crutch to joygan, keep the miniscule Government in power, I Oshi olokhe darayeche tara drbekon wanted to know whether he would use his bolidan? influence to punish one of the high officers in Aaji parikh a jatir ayothoba jater karibe the former Prime Minister's Office, now Db- tran? viouslyturned hostile to Vishwanath Pratapji Duliteche tori phuliteche jo, kandarl because of his policy on Mandai Report. This hunsjyar.- unacrupulous officer refused to place before the then Prime Minister my appeal for Gov- The poet calls on the boatman at the ernment help to a poor young girl of my helm of our country's boat to recall the constituency awaiting an urgent heart battlefield of Plassey, where Marzaf ~r's be· transplant operation at the AIIMS, despite trayalled to the loss of our independance. the fact that the former Prime Minister agreed The poet wams that although the sun of to do so much earlier. Thrice th is man pleaded freedom had set for the time being. it would 111 Motion of Confidence in NOVEMBER 16. 1990 Councilof Ministers 112

[Smt. Gaeta Mukherjee] [ Translation] dawn again reddened with our blood. And *SHRIMATI RAJINDER KAUR BULARA those who went singing to their death on the (Ludhiana): Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, tOday gallows are watching how we act. we all have gathered here for passing vote of confidence. There is no doubt that Shri Sir, the Mirzafars-whether of the past Chadnra Shekhar is the most beloved leader of the present must not be tolerated any of Sikhs and at the time of Blue Star Opera· longer. tion in 1984 he had said many things in favour of Sikhs. But today our party has Finally, to conclude with Rabindra Nath's decided to cast vote neither in his favour nor clarion call- against him. Our party will stand neutral. We will not cast vote in his favour because his "Eso he Arya, eso Ayonarya-Hindu party has taken support from Congress. The Musolman eso policies of Congress have made thousand of aso aaj tumia, raj, 9S0 eso khristan, my sisters widow in Punjab. Thousands of Eso Brahaman, suchi kori man dharo children have been killed there. Prof. Saheb, hat sobakar. Congress' policies and their hands are Eso he potit. hok opnita sob opaman stained with the blood of my husband. Whole bhar. Sikh world respects Shri Chandra Shekhar Mar abhisheke eso eso twara, because he was the firstman who raised his mongalghat hoini je bhora, voice at the time of the Blue Star Operation. Sobar poroshe pobitra kora tirthanire- Shri Chandra Shekhar has said today that Aji Bharater Mahanaber Sagartire." we should give a healing touch to the wounded sikh psyche. I fail understand what This is the Poet's call to the Aryas and he means by that. When Shri V.P. Singh Anaryas, Hindus Muslims and Christians, became the Prime Minister he had also and all the oppressed determined to over- expressed similar feelings. But what hap- come the indignity forced on them, to come pened later in Punjab. Instead of providing forth to expedite the coronation of our Mother healing touch the wounds became sore and India. none can describe the agony of the people of Punjab. Even during Shri V.P. Singh's rule I still hope and trust that the people of fake police encounters continued and parents our great motherland will respond to this call were harassed. Nothing was changed there. because the situation is too grave and it Later, Shri Virendra Verma was sent to brooks no delay. Punjab as Governor. The Government was not happy with Shri Nirmal Kumar M4kherjee SHRI L.K. ADVANI: Geetaji mentioned as he was working sincerely. He was aeclared my name and referred to some meeting of unfit as he was not in favour of fake police the Vishwa Hindu Parishad on the 17th of encounters. Shri Virendra Verma repeated October. I would like to make it clear and set the same words that he had to give a heeling the record straight that I have no idea of any touch to wounded sentiments of the Punjabis. such meeting. To the best of my knowledge But nobody knows where and when he wit! no S\Jch meeting took place. 18th was Diwali do that. Today, Shri Chandra Shekhar has day. In aocordance with the schedule of five also expressed same feelings. I urge him to weeks t~at I had drawn up for yatra in Sep- be true to his word. He should not toe the line tember itself t was to be in Delhi on those of his predecessors. days. Also I would like to add that tO,the best of my knowledge, the Vishwa Hindu Parishad After your Government came to power is punctilious and particular about the the first gift that the Sikhs got was that copies maintenance of its accounts. of holy 'Guru Granth Saheb' were burnt in

*Translation of the speech orignally delivered in Punjabi. 113 Motion of Confidence In KARTIKA 25, 1912 (SAKA) Councilof Ministers 114

Deihl and Jalandhar. You very well know of C.R.P., Jalandhar or the people about how much this hurt the Sikhs. The matter whom Congress people know better. They should be handed over to CSI for inquiry so sbould also be released. They should be that those behind h are exposed. There was imprisoned after trial. a oonspiracy as it happened at both the places simultaneously. Will it not create bad All the C.R.P. and B.S.F. force should blood in the sikhs for other communities. b~ removed from Punjab and Punjab should Election in Punjab were held in a democratic be free from Police rule. It must be added in manner and many MPs of Mann group got your manifesto, if you realty want to give elected. We came here as we have faith in healing touch to the people of Punjab. the constitution whereas many groups op- posed us. But Shri V.P. Singh's Government Besides this, Rath yatra of Shri Advani's did not give us democratic structure. The has brought the country to the verge of police raj is continuing there even after destruction. It is said about sikhs that they amendment was made in the Constitution demand Khalistan but just see the way a twice. The police raj is continuing there since learned man is trying to flare up sentiments May, 11, 1987 and this Government did not and thereby dividing the Hindus and Muslims. change it. Kindly include my submissions in They are trying to flare up between the two your manijesto. Firstly, you add in your communities. It is wrong. This should not be manifesto thatfake police encounters should done by those who teach others. not take place in Punjab. Half of your prob- lems will be solved the day when fake police [Eng/ish] encounters will stop, we do not regret if a youth is caught for his misdeeds. He should MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: You will now be imprisoned but police raj in Punjab which please conclude. is actually butcher's raj should be stopped so that we may not lose the support of Punjabi [ Trans/ation) sikhs which is a brave caste. Shri Simranjit Singh Mann raised his voice for self deter- mination only then when we felt insecure in ·SHRIMATI RAJINDER KAUR the present political and democratic struc- BULARA: Shri Advani has said that many tlore. Only then he expressed his desire uf innocent Hindus have been killed there. I approaching the U.N.O. Suppose there are agree that many innocent Hindus were killed 4-5 sons of a father and they do not have there but Muslims were also among them. good relations with each other and father Today, Shri Advaniji has said that Police does not take interest in sorting out their blindly fired on innocent people but in 1984 quarrels, then it becomes essential for them when IBlue Star Operation' took place and all to take the help from outsiders. of you invaded Harmincer Saheb, then no- body thought that you were doing injustice, what was your common policy then, you Therefore, it must be added to your have discriminated against the Sikhs. Shn manifesto thatfake police encounters should Chandra Shekharji, I want to appeal that you not take place in Punjab. The parents are must keep your word and apply the much being harrased. it should also be stopped. If needed balm to the wounded Sikh psyche. someone's child is run away from home, his parp!'lts are sent behind the bars? The par- (English] ents do not know the whereabouts of their children for 3-4 months. Not only this, some people are still behind the bars without any MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, no, no. trial. For example, the Jawans of 32 battalion Madan. you mustfinish now. No more please.

-Translation of the speech orignally delivE'red in Punjabi. 115 Motion of Confidence In NOVEMBER 16. 1990 Councllof Ministers 116

[ Translation] May, I ask this question through you, Sir, what has caused the delay? Is it because Madam, I have given you lot of time. Rajiv Gandhi and the Congress are not of one opinion regarding the selection of the *SHRIMATI RAJINDERA KAUR Ministers? There are many remours afloat BULARA: Excuse me, only last point. Our amongstthe public that Shekharji and Devilal attention has been diverted by Rath yatra are makin~ certain suggestions but Raj ivj i inspite of paying attention on development and Congress are turning them down. of country. you may visit Punjab and see long queues for diesel. It is not available Is it because that there is no unity of there. I want to urge how can Punjab and opinion in matters of seledion of Ministers? Haryana produce 65 per cent of the total At least the Prime Minister should explain production, if there is lack of diesel. positively the reason why the formation of t~e Council of Ministers is held up. [Eng/ish] Secondly, I was all the time patiently MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Shri Nani hearing what Mr. Vasant Satheji was telling. Bhattacharya. You will please conclude in I understand fully, he was just telling that five minutes because there are many others congress got higher percentage of votes and who want to speak. that they are the single largest party and all those things. He was pleading in favour of SHRI NANI BHATTACHARYA the Congress. He also explained that be- (Berhampore): Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, at cause they are not in a position to form a the outset I should say that I am opposed to stable government, they did not respond to the motion moved by the Prime Minister. the request ofthe President. I fully understand Already I have raised a point of order and in that. But has the Congress headed by Rajiv raising the point of order, I have explained Gandhi taken a stance of destabilising this the position. So, I will not dwell upon that government also? They already tried to issue again. I would ask-it was better if the destabilise the Janata Government headed Prime Minister was here-why there are by V.P. Singhji. There is no denying the fact. only two Ministers. Will the Prime Minister Even the common people, the newspaper explain the circumstances why his Cabinet reading people, those who hear the news on has not yet been formed, why more Ministers the Radio and TV, have fully realised the have not been inducted? 1 am telling you situation. So. has the Congress come forward (Speaker) in the absence of the Prime Min- with this idea that when they are not in a ister that this a serious question-Constitu- position to form a stable government, the tional question, legal question-and also 'it other government must be destablised and concerns the people very much in the sense they are determining the policy accordingly? that the Government is practically in a Otherwise it is very difficult to explain the standstill position because the Ministers are present position of the Government. not there. Secretaries are idle there ewaiting for the Ministers. Since there is no signing of The third point is-I am just quoting the files by the Ministers, so, no orders are being opinion of some of the constitutional experts issued. Actually the position is this that if we as published in The Statesman today about go to any office, the work is at a standstill. So, only two or three points below: this is another aspect of the Administration, in the interest of which the Council of Ministers "First of all, the portfolios of the Ministers must be formed to include many more Min- have not been announced. and sec- isters for the immediate distribution of port- ondly, the President has not notified foltos. This is ona part of the thing. the portfolios on the advice of the Prime

·Translation of the speech ortgnally delivered in punjabi. 117 Motion of Confidence in KARTIKA 25, 1912 (SAKA) Councilof Ministers 118

Minister. They therefore held that the saddest possible event in the annals of the entire thing was invalid under the history of India's Parliament. Constitution. " Sir, confidence is being sought of the I am not happy about the present situa- House by a set of people who have defected, tion. But I have to abide by the Ruling of the who have violated the basic norm of people's Speaker. I know the earlier career of Mr. mandate. I quite agree with Mr. Vasant Sathe Chandra Shekhar also. But it is a matter of when he says that the Ninth Lok Saha election surprise and shock to a" of us that he has did not give the clearest possible mandate in taken such a peculiar stand as to aspire for favour of one party. This is a truth which is the post of Prime Ministership. On several accepted by all of us. But one basic fact is occasions he has made such statements in clear and that basic fact is that the people the press. Everybody knows that. So, that is voted against the then ruling party and

the position. (Interruptions) Why are you therefore I the then ruling party I that is the having impatience? You, the Congress Congress-I, had received no mandate from people have destabilised the other govern- the people to form the Government. In the ment (Interruptions) But I should say, Mr. peculiar circumstances the National Front

Deputy-Speaker I that a very bad example Government was brought into being. I am has been set and the manner in which this not going into the details of it. But what we government is being formed, has dangerous see today is a saddest possible spectacle import. That strikes at the root of parlia- when a 61 member party born of defection, mentary democracy. There lies the danger. born of contrivances, born of manipulation It is the travesty of parliamentary democracy and born of evil designs, if I am permitted to all parliamentary norms have been given a say that, has been turned into a ruling party go-by and Mr. Chandra Shekhar has taken with the help and assistance and collaboration the lead. Devi Lalji is quite different. He has of the single largest party having a command given some idea about the inner working of over 193 Members. This is the sad spedacle their organisation, about the Congress and that we see today. The largest single party as to what consultations were made with this does not endeavour to take the responsibility Congress leader and that Congress leader. of the Government. But a party which has He has given some idea about the internal born of defections, which has born of con- problems. I understand that and I appreciate trivances has got the adventure to run the him. But a very bad example is set and a very Govemment and not only to run the Gov- bad instance which is a shame for us, which ernment but to meet all the national problems a Member of Parliament feels hesitant also which are facing the nation. This isa very to speak about eveyrthing to the people weak adventure. I wish them well. They have whom they represent. We have been placed violated the people's mandate. I only want to in such a position; everybody has been placed quote the manifesto of the National Front of in a precarious position. A shady same is which both Mr. Devi LaJ and Mr. Chandra going on; manipulation is going on and the Shekhar were architects. It concludes:- people are not going to swallow all these things. I would like to bring, through you Mr. Deputy Speaker, to the Members and to the "The National Front reiterates its com- people. mitment to the policies and programmes spelt out in the manifesto. SHRI CHinA BASU (Barasat): Mr. Burdened by the price rise, hurt by Deputy Speaker, Sir. we, as one of those violence, fractured by communalism who jealously protect the tradition, conven- and shamed by corruption at the top, tion and the basic norms of the parliamentary the nation longs for relief. At last, the democracy in this country would feel sad to hour of change has struck. It is for the find that there is today, a Motion of Confidence people of India to ring it in with their to be discussed in this House. To me, h is the votes.- 119 Motion of Confidence in NOVEMBER 16, 1990 Councilof Ministers 120

[Sh. Chiatta Basu] extended our support to the National Front Government not on the basis of any con- Now to my great surprise. I find that Mr. sideration, not on the basis of any political Chandrashekhar Prime Minister of this benefit to be derived from them. We have country in an interview says: IIIf the interests extended our support to them on th~ basis of of Rajiv Gandhi in politics and mine oonverge principle. on the basis of commitment, on the on 8 point. wha1 is wrong in that?" basis of ideological position that we have tak~n. I am sorry to see the change. Once This manifesto was thereto fight against upon a time, the young Turk of our country the Congress and this manifesto promises to was there to be inspired by many of us in our the people that all the items that have been country. to fight against your leadership. included in the manifesto would be imple- Now, he has sunk up to the pressure, not for mented to the fullest possible extent. Now. the noble cause. not lor great national con- after getting elected on the basis of the cern. Had it been so, you could have fought people's mandate against the Congress-I. ideologically within the Party, you could have Mr. Chandrashekhar has chosen to seek mobilised the people all over the country, alliance with the Congress-I against whom you could have mobilised your support on he has fought the elections. This is the tragic your behalf. But instead of taking recourse to of the Young Turk turned into an old political that process, you have taken to the process fossil. This Government is nothing but the of contrivance and manipulations. This is the Government by proxy; this Government is saddening part of the impasse that we find merely a Government of make-shift ar- today. Even atthis late stage, the point I want rangement. If you ailow me to say, this to make before the Prime Minister is: There Government is a grotesque chameleon. On is the anti~Defection Act. But, in spite of that the one side, there is the Congress-I; I can Anti-Defection Act, I feel particularly at this understand their policy. We have been stage the need to give to the electorate the fighting against their policies. I shah be fighting I ight to recall. If the Prime Minister really yours. Then, you will also have the opportunity wants to build up a country based on moral to fight against us. You also want us to be values and banish all defections, one of the eliminated from the political field. We shall surest and successful methods is the right to survive because of our internal strength, allow the electorate to recall, because he ideological strength and ideological com- has violated the mandate of the people. mitment. But what sort of people are th€y? Are you paying for their sins? Why are you MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Mr. Basu, taking the burden of their sins? That is why, you had your time. , say, }'OU have the courage and form the Government, run the Government in the way you like. SHRI CHITTA BASU: This is my last and concluding point. At this last stage, The National Front Government led by would the Prime Minister assure the House Mr. V.P. Singh could have survived had it that the positive steps already taken by the chosen to concede the demands of the n,ational Government on the basis of its communal forces in the country. Those election manifesto will be continued and will communal forces forced this National Front not be disturbed and will not be put an end to Government to sacrifice the Government. and, if they further improve upon it, the Otherwiso it could be at the cost of the countrymen will be very much grateful to prirq,les. The principles are fortheprotection you? But. whatever commitment has been of minorities, for upholding the principles of mad& in this election manffesto and, to the secularism and democracy. extent it has been implemented, to the extent the policy formulations have been made, You may say something agianst us. But please S98 that those policy commitments so far as the Leftists are concerned, we have are not reversed. 121 Motion of Confidence in KARTIKA 25,1912 (SAKA) Councilof Ministers 122

Even now, I have cent per cent satisfac- Bane hain ahle awas, muddsi btli munsif tion as a Leftist party which extended support bhi to the Government. True, there are many Kise vakeel karien kis se munsifi shortcomings. But there was a pronounced chahen.· policy formulation. There was pronounced policy direction. Please seethatthe manifesto [English] you adhere to is not further eroded and the nolicy formulations which are politically made You think you are the only honest people .' the erstwhile Government should be in this oountry. you think you are the only pursued without further erosion. people who work for Sidhant. That assertion is wrong. I know some fads. lam here for the I oppose the confidence motion. third term. I have met people. I know facts.

PROF. SAIF-UD-DIN SOZ (Baramulla): [T rans/alion] Mr. Deputy Speaker. Sir. kindly give me proper interpretation as I have to offer two In the very beginning Shri Devi Lal made couplets in Urdu. a very interesting remark. I am not very close to him. At the time of the meeting of the [ Translation] Presidium. The Minister incharge of televi- sion. who was responsible the extensive Mr. Deputy Speaker. Sir. the Hon. Prime misuse of Ooordarshan. who is not present Minister had rightly said in the very beginning now, someone asked Shri Devi Lal, why did that such words should not be uttered which he not attend the meeting of National Front. will invite stiff response. At that moment Shri Shri Unikrishnan and the president of his Arif intervened and told him that he was free party were also there at that time Shri Devi to say whatever he wanted to. Thereafter I Lal. in his simple style which has a touch of thought that I should also say something in sarcasm in it replied which National Front? this regard. I am pained to hear whatever Only one or two members are there. perhaps has been said today during the course of this he wanted to save the honour of the discussion. I wonder how a person like Shri Pressidium, otherwise there is nothing such Madhu Dandavate could commit such a as Presidium. Even a single member in Lok mistake while speaking. It appears that the Sabha claims to have formed s party. level of the debate has gone down. The Deputy-Prime-Minister had to exercise a Any how. now the question is. how the great restraint on that oaccasion but later on Government was run during the last eleven even he was compelled to say something months. I would explain a little in a few which he did not want to Dear friends. the minutes. The Government was formed with impression that has been created on me has the support of BJP and the Communists reminded me of a urdu complete. Whether Party. As there is paucity of time I would not persons like Arif Sahib or legal experts like like to go into the details. National Front was Shri Unnikrishnan are there I feel it was not formed and Janata Oaf was formed. But correct on their part to have quoted from the actually there was neither Jants Oal nor any constitution. Did not Shri Devi LaJ plainly National Front. In Janta Oal, Socialist group, reminded you that the aircraft was sent to the Jan Marcha and the Lok Dal had some pick him up? We know everything. When internal strife with the resutt the party split. one speaks of principles one should be very Now they have alleged that BJP is a com- careful. I reminded of a couplet written by munal party. I just do not agree to this. How Fail: can they say so. They should have thought about it the day they joined hands with left- ists and the BJP. The greatest sin you NAap khud hi judge bante hain. khud hi committed was that you did not run the muddai banta hain Government in consultation with others. I 123 Motion of Confidence in NOVEMBER 16, 1990 Councilof Ministers 124

[Sh. Chitta Basu] [ Trans/ation] would like to give an example in this regard. The injustice they did to the communists When Advaniji spoke on the provision of was that they had different policies for the reservation, the then Prime Minister Shri leftists and for the B.J.P. You will have to V.P. Singh was also present in the House for explain it ... (/nt9"Uptions) ... Shri V.P. Singh whom I have a great regard because will not tell but other persons who have lost whenever I have met him for any purpose he ministership will rome out. I ask them will not has never disappointed me. He is a very put all the Questions. I felt very sorry after honest man and a noble person, but I fail to hearing the speech of Shri Madhu Dandavate. understand why he gave so much liberty to Shri Paswan and Shri Sharad Yadav. Shri [Eng/ish] Paswan who is a friend of mine asserted in the House that the reservation policy which Madhuji, I know, you are a professor of had been formulated much earlier will be physics. But , have been a student of eco- implemented and this House is not the nomics. Even then I may tell you what is the country. Shri Advaniji at that time was forced growth of index? What is the rate of inflation? to oppose it. You are selling Tambaku atthe rate of Rs. 40 per kilogram. There is no agency to even [English] assess the index at the grassroot level. Madhuji, perhaps, I feel that you have lost It is Mr. Paswan who pushed Shri Advani your elegance the moment you joined the to the wall. Government. When hewasintheopposition, he was our leader. He lost that elegance [ Translation] because he misled this House. He misled the then Prime Minister by saying that within Advaniji asked him how can he say that a month the prices would come down. 1 the recommendations will be implemented raised that question here. I raised that without consulting the other parties. The question in the Consultative Committee at- words which he used were: tached to the Ministry of Petroleum. I asked the question from the then Prime Minister, l' [Eng/ish] are you befooling us? Can prices comA down? At this point of time, how the pric~s This minority Government cannot take would come down? Therefore, what is tHe such a big decision." position in respect of balance of foreign exchange?"We know the kind of legacy that [ Translation] you have left for Mr. Chandra Shekhar. I will come again to the policy on Kashmir. The main cause of the fall of this Gov- ernment has been that they did not consult [ Translation) each other, besides, Janata Dal itseH had been split into various factions within. How What is their policy about Kashmir SAri can the people who are divided within V.P. Singh handed over the charge of themselves can take the country to the right Kashmir to his worthy Ministery of Ho",. direction ... (Int9"Uptions) ... 1 would like to Affairs. All the memorandum we used to give submit that they have done injustice to the him ware handed over to Shri Mutb communists. 1accept the principles of com- Mohammad Sayed. Kashmir was completely munism. destroyed during the regime of the previous Government. What did not happened there? [English) The person who was sent there was re- sponsible for its destruction you talk of Often I f8el I belong to leftist. principles-(/ntsfnJJlions) ... You are sup. 125 Motion of Confidence in KARTIKA 25, 1912 (SAKA) Councilof Ministers 126 posed to safeguard the Constitution of India. no longer the Minister of Kashmir Affairs But article 370 was totally ignored and in (Int9"uptions) I want to ask them that under such circumstances that person was sent what authority it was done. They used to say there who brought destruction there. After on the day when the vote of confidence was that Shr~Farooq was murdered, incidents of saught that their Government should get firing took place in Kashmir, the same day. majority. Today, I whole-heartedly welcome Shri Chandra Shekhar, Shri Indrajit Gupta this new Government and the new Prime and Shri Somnath Chatterjee demanded Minister and support the motion they have that he should be called back. However, the brought here. members of Janata Dal comprising of Jan Morcha and others, excluding of course of During the last two days' requested the BJP, suggested that he should be rewarded Home Minister and the Prime Minister and thus he was rewarded in the other house. Chandra Shekharji to withdraw TADA Act Shri V.P. Singh, did not visit Kashmir once which.was enforced in Kashmir atthe instance even despite a number of memorandum of Jagmohan with the sole purpose of taking given to him, to pay at least a short visit to the revenge upon the people of Kashmir but they valley to console the people. (Interruptions) turned a deaf ear to ~. The court has given a Why didn't you go to Kashmir? Instead the verdict that in Srinagar too the Terrorist and Minister of Horne Affairs has got passed two Disruptive Activities (Prevention) Act should draconian laws here and as a sequel to it be enforced because there too Innocent incidents of arsons, killings and rape and people may be implicated. They immediately other illegal things took place. We even told reacted to it. The Government wanted to you that the journalists have taken a risk in take the credit. I foiled their foul game and going there. Had our journalist colleagues said that the new Prime Minister has done so and popel like Tarkunde, Sarkatdah and on our request and TADA force was deployed others of Human Rights Organisation and in Srinagar. For the last two months the people of the Initiative Group not gone there, employees right from Peon to the Chief then Amensty and other American Secretary in the State are on strike. But this organisations establishied for restoration of Government is not taking the trouble to as· human rights would have blamed us and our certain the problems of its employes. The nation. Today we can reiterate that there Chief Secretary of the State said that the were certain people who had sympathised employees would be compelled to call off with them. I had rquested Shri V.P. Singh to their strike and resume their duty. Will this send a Parliamentary delegation to look into act of compelling the two lakhs employees of it but he did not dare to send the same. While the State to resume their duty prove helpful appointing Shri George Fernandes as the in creating a harmonious relationship. I ap- Ministerof Kashmir Affairs, Government had prised the new Prime Minister of my 5Ug- obtained mandate from all pol~ical partie ges+~on and perception that the employees and had asked for the support of Shri Rajiv would resame their duty willingly only when Gandhi. The issue was settled with the they were asked to do so with honour. (In- support of Somnath Chatterjee. Inderjit Gupta terruptions) I want to say something about and Advaniji and orders of the President Ram Janambhoomi-Babri Masjid issue. were obtained in that respect. But Mr. (Int9ffuptions) I want to recite a couplet to Fernandes was removed becuase he had Advaniji and it is as follows (/nt9rruptions) I started understanding and sharing the am submitting it for the attention of Advaniji. problesm of Kashmiris. He was removed in It is telecast on Television aI50:- an uncalled for manner. without discussing it with anyone you dismissed him. No order of President were obtained in dOing so. You tlUske Faroge Husan Se, Jhamke Haln never invited the political parties for a dis· Sub Mein Noon, cuss ion on this issue. Mr. Fernandes was Shamme Haran Ho Va Ki Oiya Somnath simply intimated on telephone that he was Ka.· 127 Motion of Confidence in NOVEMBER 16,1990 Councilof Ministers 128

[Sh. Chitta 8asu] To err is human. Thus the new Prime Minister had warned that nothing derogatory This is a couplet composed of by Mir should be said which compels him to make Takimir and I want to tell him that this is the a statement. I am reciting the couplet. voice of a Muslim. Its meaning is that it is the God whom you call Rama and whom you [English] defame. The beauty of God shines every- where. May it be in the premises of Mecca t)r I want somebody to interpret it into En- Somnath. You listen to it on Radio and glish. Television in the morning but you do not pause to give a thought to it. (Interruptions) Itni Na Barah Pakaye ?Oaman Ki Advaniji your Rath Yatra has been termed by Kihayat." Your are all clean, don't prolong us as Vote yatra. You have highligh~ed your this story; don't magnify the conceit of your symbol. own clean lines. Don't make it something very big. Now it is my earnest appeal to you not to make the question of Babri Masjid and Ram Itni Na Barah Pakaye Daman Ki Himayat, Janambhoomi an issue Babar and Rama. It Daman Ko Jara Dekh Zara Bande Kana will be an act of grat injustice to the Muslims. Ko Dekh." 11 is not an issue related to Rama and Babar. Because God Rama is adivine power. Allama Iqbal has called Rama as' IIlmame Hind". [English]

[English] SHRI IBRAHIM SULAIMAN SAlT (Manjeri): Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I rise to He is the leader, the philospher and the extend the support and cooperation on be- my party, the Muslim to Shri guide for all the people. This is Allama Iqbal. half of League Chandra Shekhar Government. I feel, as far Could there be a better Muslim that Allama as Mr. Chandra Shekhar is concerned, he Iqbal?( Interruptions) has secular credentials and nobody can doubt about it. When I say, "let us support MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Please con- this Government", I have got valid reasons clude. There are other Members to speak. for the same and I do so, in the interest of the nation. [ Translation] Let us make it very clear that we do not PROF. SAIFUDDIN SOZ: Thus, feel shy of elections. In a democratic set up, Advaniji, please do not try to be unjust to the everybody has to face elections today or Muslims and try to resolve this issue through tomorrow. None can run away from the same. negotiations. But what is disturbing me equally today is that, it is not the appropriate time to go in for New I want to recite a couplet to attract a mid-term poll. This is a very valid factor thtt attantion of Shri V.P. Singh, Dandavate which everyone has to remember. If we hold ji and their colleagues. the elections today, let me tell you honestly and sincerely, the country will face blood- [English] bath. Holding elections today under the cir- cumstances, will be a disaster. All our ideals They are presenting themselves before of secularism, all our ideals of national in- the nation as saints. tegrity, all our ideals of communal harmony will be shattered completely, if we go to polls [ Translation] today. Therefore one has to l'nderstand this: If anybody is going to gain today by elections, I want to say it in Urdu. (Interruptions) it will only be the aggressive, fascist, com- 129 Motion of Confidence in KARTIKA 25, 1912 (SAKA) Council of Ministers 130 munal forces and its success is going to alarming and critical situation, again our destroy the country In future. We must also friends of BJP are starting a campaign for understand that today the entire country is Kar Seva from the 6th of next month. They surcharged with emotions. You all know have seen the disaster of the Rathyatra last what is happening in our country. Last month month and today they are talking of Kar Seva and this month also riots were there in Godhra to start from the 6th December. I shudder to in Gujarat; Jalpur and Udaipur in Rajasthan; imagine what is going to happen to our Indore in Madhya Pradesh, not to speak of country under such a s~uation. (Int9mJptions) the curfew in 33 towns in UP. In Bijnore, hundreds of Muslims were killed, surpassing One more thing I would like to say is that the genocide of Bagalpur, last year. We when the sHuation is very serious, a decla- cannot ignore all these. These are the result ration has been made by a leader of the of the notorious Rath Yatra and nobody can Vishwa Hindu Parishad that none mosque is dispute it. (Interruptions) This is the result of not surrendered to them, then, they will oc- the notorious Rath Yatra. Today I cannot cupy 3,000 mosques forcibly and no Gov- forget the communal violence in Delhi, yes- ernment will be able to save the Muslims. terday and the day before. There have been (Interruptions) I want the Prime Minister killings, arson and 100tin9; and tension still should also consider this declaration and its prevails. It is a conspiracy of the fascist many-faceted elements. I am pained at this communal forces. The atmosphere was al- declaration. 1am deeply pained when I think ready poisoned by the Rath Yatra through- of the present situation. out the length and breadth of the country. DR. BIPLAB DASGUPTA (Calcutta 18.00 hrs. South): What is the policy of the Prime Minister? (Interruptions) All this was the result of the Rathyatra. There was violence in the country. SHRI IBRAHIM SUlAIMAN SAlT: must tell you all that we have had enough of I cannot remain without mentioning the bloodshed and devastation. Let us call a I jalt communal violence in Delhi yesterday and to it. let us live in peace in this country. All of day before yesterday. The Government us are brothers. Therefore, as a Musalman ... should find out who is responsible for all this. (Int9"uptions) The administration and the police failed there. There were killings, arson and complete DR. BIPLAB DASGUPTA: You do not disaster because of burning of the houses r~present the Muslims. and looting of business establishments. The situation has been badly handled by the local SHRIIBRAHIM SULAIMAN SAlT: Who police force. I am happy that the Prime says? (Interruptions) Nobody can speak Ministervisited the disturbed area yesterday. against me. (/nt6"uptions) I would urge the Today. he has declared in the House that to Prime Minister to take a serious note of these establish peace, he will not hesitate to take threats to the country and the people and action against anybody however high he take adequate steps for protection of the might be. J am sure, he must have directed minorities and the nation in future. the administrative machinery to be vigilant to restore peace, and to give justice to the Unfortunately, my illustrious friend, Shri minorities. He should take action against Advani, is not here. I honestly and sincerely those found responsible for such violence in appeal to my friends from the BJP to convey the country and for disturbing the peace in to Shri Advant. I want them to reconsider the country. I hope the Prime Minister would their decision to start the Kar Sava from the in future remember the solemn declaration 6th of next month. I appeal to him to please made in this august House today. give it up. That would be disastrous for the country. I appeal to them to give up this path It is extremely painfulthat under such an of violence and intransigence and agree to 131 Motion of Confidence in NOVEMBER 1,6, 1990 Councilof Ministers 132

[Sh. Ibrahim Sulaiman Sait] say is that stability should be at the Centre and in the States also. The largest State sit round a table and try to solve this very very according to the population is UP. There- sensitive. and provocative issue of Babri fore, I feel that Mulayam Singh Yadav Gov- MasjldMRamjanambhoomi problem. Let us ernment should not be disturbed and it should all sit together and with all sincerity and continueto be in power. Whateverourfriends loyalty, we will be able to settle this issue and of BJP m'ght misrepresent that an govern- then we can go again to the judicial body. ments follow a policy of appeasement of The political situation in this country is worst, Muslims, they are false and baseless. The whether the situation in Kashmir or in Punjab reality is that Muslims have been discrimi· or in Assam or in Tamil Nadu. Everywhere nated and they never got justice. Therefore, there is terrorism and fear. How many people I appeal to the Prime Minister that Muslims have been killed. Can we have "Iections in should be given justice. They should be this situation? Is it possible? By holding given equality; they must have dignity; they elections, do you want to destroy the coun- must have protection and identity; Lastly, I try? want to quote a couplet of a famous poet, Jigar Moradabadi. Now, the economic situation is in a mess. We have the Gulf crisis and due to this "Chaman-Chaman Hi Nahin, Jiske GuH crisis. our economy is going to suffer Goshe Goshe Mein, very badly as there are potentialities of war. Kahin Bhar Na Aye, Kahin Bahar Aye, May God save us from war. So, in this Ye Meinkade Ki Saki Gari Ki Hai Tauhin, international situation, economic situation Koi HoJame Bakf, Koi Sharmsar Aye." and political situation, all want that in the interest of the country there should not be Therefore, I appealtothe Prime Ministerthat elections today. Now, in the circumstances, Muslims should be given justice, equality, priority should not be for elections. Priority dignity and identity. I hope Babri Masjid should for establishing peace and commu- issue will be settled soon. Thank you. nal harmony and solving the problems. Let us therefore have an alternative Government. [ Translation] We haveto explorethe meansof establishing an alternative and stable Government. The MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Mayawati ji, Leader of Opposition, Shri Rajiv Gandhi was I am giving you five minutes to speak. invited to form the Government and he could not form the Government. There was no KUMARI MAYAWATI (Bijnore): Three other possibility and finally, a solution has members from our party have been elected ... come that Shri Chandra Shekhar alone can ( Interruptions) form the Government. This solution is very clear. Therefore, a Government has to be , ., MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: I will be established. Nobody else can do it except grateful to you ff you resume your seat im- Mr. Chandra Shekhar to whom we give our mediately after I ring the bell. support. I hope that this Government will be stable for at least some years so that they KUMARI MAYAWATI: Mr. Speaker, can solve the problems and normalise the Sir, before making my party's stand clear present situation and then all of us can go for over the motion of confidence moved by the elections. Today, the only alternative Gov- hon. Prime Minister, Shri Chandra Shekhar, ernment poSSible, after all the efforts of the I would like to appeal to the Prime Minister Pr.sident, is the Chandra Shekhar Govern- and apprise the entire House of an incident ment. I only hope that all of us will jdin in the that took place at my residence after I endeavour to establish communal harmony criticised the dual policy of Shri V.P. Singh, and save the integrlty of the country. And the han. Ex-Prime Minister in the House on then, we shall face elections in a better the 7th November. (Interruptions) Please atmosphere. Another thing which I want to listen, if you do not know, we shall open a 133 Motion of Confidence In KARTIKA 25,1912 (SAKA) Councilof Ministers 134 school for your learning. I want to submit that him and give our blessings but 1...... (in- on the 12th November when I came back terruptions) Why are you upset on my using from Bijnor, I came to know from my family the word 'biassing'. The B.J.P. seems to be members that some anti-social elements more upset on my using this term. As the fact were sent at my residence after the 7th remains that cast Hindus will never like to November, who threatened them of serious accept the blessings of the persons who consequences if I did not support Shri V.P. once upon a time were considered as un- Singh. A report against some of them whom touchable. Not only that they would not even my family members could identify had also like to bless them as they were considered been '9dged. so low. So, they were always denied the opportunity of coming to the Assembly and Now, I would like to tell the han. Prime the Parliament in the past. Ratherone should Ministerthatthere has been the Government be happy to know that today after a great of Janata Dal during the past 11 months and effort of Dr. Baba Saheb Ambedkar the son at present also the name of the party which of an untouchable, Shri Kanshi Ram stands is going to form the Government is Janata in a position to bless the son of a Thakur. Oal. The only difference between the two Now I have explained about my using the Governments is that the former had been word 'blessing' ...... (Int8"Uptions) supported by the B.J.P. and th'e leftist parties while the latter is being supported by the Congress, the largest party in the House, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, now I want to and other parties. Han Shri V.P. Singh might make my party's stand clear as the voting will be knowing well though he could not admit take place after a short-while. As on the 7th earnestly in the House that whatever steps November also over the motion of oonfidence did he like to initiate in favour of the poor and moved by Shri V.P. Singh I had made it clear helpless people, the B.J.P. and the leftist that all the three votes of the B.J.P. would be group did not allow him to do so as his was cast in his favour if his Government was to the minority Government. Now another fall for want of only three votes but we would Government of Janata Dal has been formed not spoil our votes ~ they need more than with the support of Congress (I) party and three votes to survive. The same thing I want some other groups. I want to say that had the to rapeat here even today that our three earlier Government been able to fuffill even votes are reserved for the han. Prime Min- haH of the assurances given to the S.C., ister Shri Chandra Shekhar if he really re- S.T., D.B.C. and others, that Government quires them in orderto get vote of oonfidenc8, headed by Shri V.P. Singh would not have otherwise we would like to remain neutral been collapsed. So, I request the present even today. In this country, all the powers Prime Minister not to follow the path of Shri have been captured by a handful people, V.P. Singh. Our party's policy is quite clear. may be about 15 per cent of the total popu- We neither supported nor opposed the Na- lation. We after a hard struggle under the tional Front Government and thus remained leadership of Dr. Ambedkar, Mahatama neutral. We supported that Government on Phule, Shri Rama Swamy Naikar and Shri their merits. Our policy Is more or less the Kanshi Ram have got an opportunity to fol· same but under the new circumstances a low the path envisaged by them. We ac- slight departure had to be made from the knowledge only Shri Kanshi Ram as our previous policy. Keeping in view the disturbed present leader, not anyone els9, because it situation in the country during the last 11 is he who has provided us a right platform in months holding elections may not be prac- the political arena to follow the path of our tical. Although the B.J.P. and the Janata Dal elders. I request the Han. Prime Minister to were in favour of holding elections, yet our take initiative for the welfare of the poor and party president, Shri Kanshi Ram had decided depressed class. We shaU always be ready that we shall support Shri V.P. Singh if he to furnish the details about their conditions if gets the vote of confidence and if he fails to he so desires so that something could be get it and instead if Shri Chandra Shekhar done for their welfare. Wrth these words, I gets a vote of confidence, we shall support conclude. 135 Motion of Confidence in NOVEMBER 16. 1990 Councllof Ministers 136

MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Mahadikji, and Ram Janam Bhoomi. According to my once you get up to speak, you do not sit. I am information, some parts of the mosque de- giving you two minutes time to express your pict the pictures of pigs, tigers and peacocks. views. I want the society to think whether these pictures form part of muslim culture. I want to 18.22 hr•• know whether the new Government will telecast on Doordarshan the cor. ~ position [MR. SPEAKER in the Chait) regarding Babri Masjid and Ram Janam Bhoomi so that the country knows the factual ·SHRI VAMANRAO MAHADIK position. (Bombay-South Central): Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I thank you very much for Mr. Mulayam Singh Yadavwhosetough giving me an opportunity to clarify the stand handling of the situation resulted in carnage of my party and the party chief, Shri Thakare in Ayodhya was compared to Gen. Dyre and on the motion of Confidence in the Council of Ayodhya situation to Ja/ian wa.Ja 8agh. If you Ministers moved by Han. Prime Minister are going to include Mr. Mulayam Singh when I opposed the motion expressing Yadav in your cabinet, then we have to think confidence in V.P. Singh Government, on whether to extend support to your Govern- the eartier occasion, it was interpreted that ment or not. If the inter9sts of the Hindus are our party is going to support the break-away not protected in this country, we are not

group of Janta Oat I want to say that my prepared to tolerate such a situatiof'l. ·,·I,r~,: I speech was wrongly interpreted and ,false Hindu world was made orphan by 'PraL~f' t propaganda was made. Austerity of principles we are not convinced how Chandrashe~m .~., is pointed out by everybody. But everyone holding 'Chandra on his head is going tu knows opportunism involved in politics. change the present situation. Whether it is Gujarat, Rajasthan or this au- gust House, we know that cooperation is Kashmir is a burning problem. If any extended by the parties not on the basis of dispute regarding Vaishno Devi arises, I do principles but on the basis of selfish political not know which 'Natht is going to solve that interests. So, even though there is an alliance, problem. Similarly, problems of Punjab, it can not be free from self-interest. Assam, Tamil Nadu are equally intractable and I do not know which "subodh" and which Sir, I want to make it clear that our party "Sahaya" (assistance) you are going to take can think of extending support to the new while solving these problems unless we are Government only if it decides to rectify the told how this Government will remove in- mistakes committed by the previous Gov- justice done to Hindus, we cannot support ernment. The Government headed by V.P. this Government. Singh neglected and insulted Hindus, 'Hindutva and Hinduism in its 11 month old Regarding Mandai Commission report, regime. For appeasing the minority the my party chief has said that reservation Government declared 'Paigamber Jayanti' should not be caste based. Persons be- as Public Holiday. I want to know in the longing to any caste have to face problem of House, why such a holiday was not declared hunger and starvation. Hunger knows no for Rama or Krishna Jayanti. I want to know caste. It is above caste barrier. Therefore. what will beJhe policy of the new Government equal justice should be given to the poor in this matter. irrespective of their caste.

The issue of Ram Janam Bhoomi was On the issue of Ram Janam Bhoomi, raised in the House. I had requested the BJP, Shivsena, Bajrang Dal and several former Minister to telecast on Doordarshan religious saints have un~edly revolted and the correct position regarding Sabri mosque they have propogated 'HindUlvti in the new

-Translation of the speech originally delivered in Marathi. 137 Motion of Confident» in KARTiKA 25. 1912 (SAKA) Councilof Ministe" 138 light. This is the beginning of new revolution. was made, i.e. to celebrate this Birsa Munda's If you want to avoid communal flare up by birthday. And Shri laloo Vadav, the Chief reactionary and terrorists forces arising from Ministerof Bihar was to come and address it. the failur& of solving Ram Janam Bhoomi, And in the night. all those who are for this Punjab and such oommunally sensitive is- new Government burnt the entire dais .... sues, we have to check these forces. I may (Interruptions) .... An that panda/was burnt; proudly mention that Maharashtra has suc- and in that burnt panda/. the entire celebra- cessfully checked such aggressions of tion has to be conducted. This is only the I Shaks', I Hoons', Muslims, and christians in beginning. I do not know where it will end. the past. I want to know what is the policy of the Government for checking the attack of I would like to say t: lis: the Dalits, the such communal. reactionary and terrorist poor. the exploited, the trampled and the forces and how the Government proposes to down-trodden are not happy. They are not break the cast barriers causing turmoil in the jubilant. But they will not forgive either. I country and build a casteless society. We would like to say this. What is tho crime of want to know what is the difference between that Government? The crimes of that Gov- the old Janata Oa/ and the new group. As we ernment are many; and the biggest crime is do not know this, our party has decided to that it has dared to touch the entrenched take a neutral stand on the issue of lending interests, or the vested interests. That is the support to the new Government. biggest crime it had committed. That is why it had to fall. MA. SPEAKER: Now Shri A.K. Roy- only two minutes. It did not fall when it compromised on the Punjab issue, though that was an Hi- SHRI A.K. ROY (Dhanbad): Minutes for malayan blunder; It dId not taU when it us, and hours forthem. Sir, don't destabilise compromised on Kashmir issue; it did not fall us. when it compromised on industrial policy issue; it did not fall when it compromised on The Motion before the House, seeking giving concessions to the foreign monopo- confidence by a mysterious Government, is lists.ltfeU when it refused to give concessIons an affront to all of us. If November 7th was a on the question of secularism; there it fell. sad day-writing an obituary of a Govern- That is why we were-all the Leftists- ment, this is a bad day-writing an obituary committed to support this Government and to all the values, about which I would like to to continue it. appeal to all the people. What are we ob- serving today? They say that the previous I have great admiration for Mr. AdvaOl. Government fell, as if to the relief of all. I want I adore him. And by his reasonableness and to know who ar the people who celebrated by his self-restraint he does not look as a the fall of the previous Government. and who BJP's man ... (InterruptIOns) So, he is a very are the people who are rejoicing about the wonderful man ... (Interruptions) ... He does installation of this Government. I have seen not look as a BJP's man; he looks a perfect that all the elites. all the privileged. all the gentleman, the BJP leader: he criticised this ruling people. all the people in the upper Government. This js a defectors' Govern- strata of the society are celebrating the fall of ment. Charan Singh's defector Government the previous Government, and the rise of the is one thing: he did not trouble us to accept new Government. its prolonged existence.

I would like to draw your attention to t118 SHAt L.K. ADVANI: This Government fact that in Dhanbad. only yesterday viz. the has been brought by all those who did not 15th November. it was a very sacred day. realise that the only solution is a fresh when the people of this area. the people of mandate and in which perhaps you also the Jharkhand area celebrate the birthday of contributed. Otherwise, my party is of the Sirsa Bhagwan; and for this purpose, astage view that the only way is a fresh mandate ... 139 Motion of Confidence in NOVEMBER 16, 1990 Councllof Ministers 140

(/ntsffuptions) ... lastly, I will say something to Mr. Chandra Shekhar whom I used to know for a SHRI A.K. ROY: He knew that it was a long time. Being a man from Dhanbad, he minority Government when it was formed. often used to grace or disgrace that place. When we amended the Constitution, we Moon means Chandra. Moon is always a made a provision that arbitrarily no Govern- satellite; moon is not a star, not even a ment can recommend dissolution of the Par- planet. So, there is no wonder that even in liament H it is in a minority. Even if V.P. politics also he will remain as a satellite. Singh's Government had recommended the Thank you. dissolution of Parliament, the President was not bound to listen to that; he could have SHRI CHANDRA SHEKHAR: Mr. offered it to the biggest party. That is the Speaker, Sir, I feel sad after hearing the constitutional position. He knows it. .. (In- whole debate. I shall not say a word about terruptions) ... the speech of my friend, Mr. Sathe, because he has been kind enough to extend his SHRI L.K. ADVANI: His advice would support I am glad that in spite of all anguish not have been binding. and anger, my friend from the CPM and CPt friends have raised the level of the debate. I shall not go intothe acrimonious accusations; SHRIA.K. ROY: Butthe advice was not nor shall I like to answer them. But, definitely even given. This w~s significant. .. {Inter- they have raised a VAry valid question. What ruptions) ... Why should an intelligent, sen- is the programme before this Government? sible man give an advice which would not Orwhat arethe issues on which we are going have been binding? ... (Interruptions) ... Our to run the nation in the coming days? In the advice should not be that cheap. What did he very beginning of my speech this morning I do? The Rath of a man like Advaniji moved said that we should not indulge in personal and this Government also moved to that accusations. I really feel that times are grave. position; both the movements took place we have reached a perilous point in our simultaneously. What will the people un- history. I do not want to be prophet of doom derstand? The people will understand that because I know that because of cultural you, the BJP and the Congress (I) had a heritage, civilization and vitality of our people secret understanding and this produced this we can over come all the difficulties with Government. This is the product ... (Inter- cohesion and hardworking. But, Mr. Speaker, ruptions) ... I would like to ask: why did you we have to find the areas of agreement, not do this through the Congress (I), Janata Dal areas of confrontation and conflict. This is (S) and others? You could have directly true for all the countries which are fighting formed the Government. Your 86 and their against poverty, squalour, misery and dis- 192 could have given us a stable Govern- ease. This is true for the whole world and ment. "JAB PYAR KIVA TO DARNA KYA" ... more true for this subcontinent. This is why (/nt9"Uptions) ... Why all these things? I am I say that at this moment we should try to very much surprised that a party like BJP agree to work together on specific issues. which talks of Hinduism, which talks of pro- longed long-term national interest, has a My friend Shri Somnath Chatterjee plunge the entire country into such type of asked me what will be the manifesto. I shall crisis only on the question of having election like to keep aside the manifestoes of all the for Rama's Temple. Ram lives in the hearts political parties. Today, can't we agree on of the people. "Where lies the Kingdom of three, four, five points where we can say that Heaven," people ask? The Kingdom of we shall work together in order to retrieve the Heaven lies in the hearts of the people. But situation? For that a new political climate has these people think that Ram lives in that to be created in t.· s country and that political spot, nowhere else, not even in 1tle heart of climate can be Initiated by understanding Mr. Advani. All these absurd thing~ are going each oth.. s problems, each other's aspira- on. tions. No use trying to call names. I know, 141 Motion of Confidllnce in KARTIKA 25, 1912 (SAKA) Councllof Ministers 142 sometimes, that in the heat of the moment all be discriminated against on the basis of of us lose our temper, try to call others caste, aeed and religion. If you take these names and I am sorry that in the course of five points as our manifesto. as our desti· this debate I also once or twice lost my nation, as our goal. is there any difference in temper. But when I see the problem as h this House? There cannot be any difference. comes, unfolds before me every day, I think Why can't you work on this? But if you work that we just cannot afford and I cannot afford on these principles, we will have to make to lose temper while sitting in this chair, many changes in our approach towards the because, I want everybody's cooperation, economic problem. towards the social everybody's support. If you want me to ex- problem and Mr. Speaker. Sir, I shall like to press my political philosophy, Mr. Somnath emphasise if the resources are scarce and if Chatterjee, , am not a progressive man, I am the country Is poor, every section of the a conservative person and as a conservative, sOciety will have to share this poverty. It I do not change every day. My philosophy is cannot be that those who are the toiling the same, what my friend Shri Chitta Basu masses, our peasantry. our workers in the says, when I was being called a Young TUrk. field and factories, they will be asked, they And there is no alternative before this country, will be called upon, togoon making sacrifices. because we are a scarce resource society. H In the first four decades, since our indepen~ the resources are limited, we have to decide dence we have been asking them to make howto use our resources. We have to decide sacrifices. How long more? They will have to what is our asset and what is our strength. be assured that this poverty will have to be Nature has given us a fertile land, a good shared by those who are the privileged in the climate, all the types of fruits and crops can society. So. I shall like to make this appeal to be produced in this country, almost all the those who are elite, who are privileged. My minerals are found in this land, and above all friend Mr. A. K. Roy told me that they are very there are more than 85 crore people in this cooperative with me. I am very happy. If they country, who have got the strength to bring want to cooperate with me, they should learn prosperity and progress to this nation. What to make sacrifice in order to make the people, has been our fauft in the past? We have not our poorer sections, happier and richer. That been able to provide opportunity for these is a must that we should do. In this context, people, unfortunate people, who are ready weshallhavetoreviseourapproach.Shrimati to work hard, to utilise their strength for Geeta Mukherjee asked me, U are you going producing more. How can we do it? In a to revise the Industrial Policy"? Was there democratic society, Mr. Speaker, we cannot any Industrial Policy adopted by the previous force them to work. We have to create their Government? Certain broad lines were given. will power and how can you create that will I had some objections to that. And I think, power? That will power can be created, can Somnathji you had also those objections. be inspired, only by assuring them that what Those objections are not based on personal they produce will not go for the ostentatious prejudice. I have no preferences. I have no living of the chosen few but for meeting the prejudice. But I think that in this country we basic needs of our people. So, our investment cannot hope to be bailed out by forces out· has to be made in the areas which are side. I do not say that we should not take help essential for meeting the basic needs of our from outside. In today's world we will have to people and we will have to invest in man. depend on outside help and support. In When I talk of investment in man, Mr. critical areas, we will have do invite new Speaker, Sir, I shall like to emphasise that technology, modern technology and we shall the child is the strength of today and the hope have to open up those areas for those who of tomorrow. Every child who is born has the can do better But are you going to open up right to get from the society clean drinking our whole area for producing more cosmet- water, necessary calories to develop as a ics, more ice-craams? Please see the col- healthy citizen. elementary education. pri .. laboration arrangements that had been made mary health services and when he grows during the last many years and even during into a citizen, 18 years of age, he should not these few months when we we,e ruJing this 143 Motion of Confidence in NOVEMBER 16, 1990 Councilof MinisttH'S 144

[Sh. Chandra Shekhar) I say that in the matter of religion every- body is fre8. Secularism does not me~n that country. My objection is not against we should discard religion. Religion is a Iiberalisation. This question is being raised instrument of communion between man and everywhere. H liberalisation means less of God. As long as religion is used for com- red-tapism, if liberalisation means no hurdle, munion between man and God, for religious no corruption, bureaucracy should not in- pursuits, we should not quarrel. terfere, then liberalisation is a must. If liberalisation means to squander away the We should be proud of our religious scarce resources for ostentatious living, I heritage in this country. I am a Hindu. I am shall only plead with all humility, we are not proud of Rama; I am proud of Krishna; I am in a position to afford it. I hope that we shall proud of the Vedas and our Arayan realise these limitations. civilisation. But equally I am proud of the contribution made by other religions which On the econom ic front, I think that those came to this country. And this is the superi- who are poor and especially those sedions ority of the Hindu religion over others because who had been neglected, remain oppressed we have got the compassion and we have and exploited, they should have our special got the tolerance. If this tolerance and preference. I know there are many doubts. compassion go, the Hindu religion will lose there are many apprehensions. But, Mr. its power, its superiority over all other reli- Speaker. through you I want to assure this gions. nation. I may make any compromise but no compromise on the question of dignity of the I am not against building the temple. I Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes. shall not."_go into any controversy. But it is an There will be no question of any compromise emotive issue. The building should be con- on the feeling of the backward and oppressed structed. In the birth place of Rama there sections about their urge to get a life of should be a temple, magnificent. glorious dignity in this society. and as big as we can make. But I shall appeal to my friends that in their enthusiasm to build Mr. Speaker, Sir, about minorities, mi- the temple, do nottrytodemolishthe mosque, norities all over the world feel apprehensive. because I tell you, no other matter can come I shall beg of those who say that there should in the way. Build the temple as you lik. and be no discrimination between the minority all of us will contribute. And if I remain ,...rime and majority. Why the founders of our Con- Minister, Mr. Advani, after a few minutes. I stitution inserted a minority clause in our assure you that I shall cooperate in every Constitution? Minorities all over the world, way to build the temple. But the only thing is, whetherthey are religious minorities or ethnic assure the Muslim community that their pride, minorities or linguistic minorities, react in a their self-respect will not be hurt. (Interrup- sharp way because they have apprehension tions) and fear in thatr minds. If we go by the dictionary meaning of what they say, we KUMARI UMA BHARATI (Khajuraho): shall always reach a wrong political decision. The Vishwa Hindu Parishad have decided in We should try to understand their aspirations, their meeting that unless you condemn the we should try to understand their appre- massacre in Ayodhya and unless you show hensions, we should try to understand that your regret for the praising you did of Shri they have a psychology, a psyche where Mulayam Singh Yadav, Vishwa Hindu they feel that they are not assured about Parishad people will not talk to you on this their security, about their prosperity and about Ayodhya issue. their future. It is the responsibility of the nation, it is the responsibility of the State and SHRI CHANDRA SHEKHAR: Even if more so the responsibility of the majority they do not talk with me I shall go on trying to community to see that this fear is eliminated talk with them because I want to make it very from their minds. This W8 will have to do. dear that I shall talk with avery citizen of 145 Motion of Confldsf1C9 in KARTIKA 25, 1912 (SAKA) Councllol Minist9l"S 146

India howsoever on a wrong path he will be, stand on false prestige. I do not want to stand but only on one condition that there will be no on prestige whether I should meet X. Y, Z or compromise with the sovereignty, unity and not. Whoever can contribute to peace, integrity of the country. This is the only one whoever can contribute to understanding I condition. If a son or a relative of my family shall go and knock at his door. Hthe Muslim goes wrong, do I say that I shall discard him oommunity agrees to build the temple on the all of a sudden? very spot where the mosque is, I shall be very glad. But this should be with common I know, in this House and in the other consent. It should be by their mutual under- House many a time I have seen people standing. It should not be coerced on them. taking an extreme view. But parliamentary I shall appeal again to the religious leaders of democracy means dialogue, discussion, the Muslim Comm unity and also of the Hindu persuation of each other to come to some Community that they should sit together, try understanding. This is the essence of par- to find a solution. Let us not politiclse this liamentary democracy. issue. This is not a political issue. This is a human issue. This is an issue which is going My friend, Somnathji asked me what is to have its bearing on the history for a long my understanding with Advaniji or the BJP. time to come. The only understanding is-I again repeat in spite of all protestation by th& lady Member Mr. Speaker, Sir, on this question I am sitting on the front bench-that I consider very clear. In the name of religion please do Advaniji to be a patriot. I do not agree with his not kill each other, that is an antithesis of thinking about the social and political me of religion, that is against religion, whether it IS this country. And I shall go on appealing to Islam, whether it is Hinduism, whether it IS Mr. Advani and his coJleagues-1 have gone Christianity or any other religion. ThIS is way to their houses and tell them that the country I say that traditions should be respected cannot afford to have confrontation, the unless and until they come in the way of country cannot indulge in fighting with each progress. My friend Prof. Madhu Dandavate other. I am sorry for what happened in was kind enough to refer to my stand taken Ayodhya. Nobody wants that even a Single at the time of operation Blue Star. I was one men should die. I assure you that even ~ a of the saddest persons at that time. I did not single man or wcmen dies in thiS country, I make any bag statement. When some press feel that ci son or daughter of Mother India men asked me. I just said, I still remember has died. Death IS death whether it comes by that sentence-it IS unfortunate that we had the knife of a rioter or by the bullets of the to send the army to the Golden Temple and police. There is no difference in death. So, I better withdraw it soon. Th.s is what I said. cannot say that death by rioting is wrong and There were oomments all over the country. death by police bullets ;s good. But, some- Editorials were written against me. Political times, the State has to perform unpleasant leaders came down on me heavily and not duties. I never said that Mr. Mulayam Singh only Rajivji who subsequently became Pmne should have done it in a more vigorous wav. Minister but even the leaders of my own I ask you Mr. Speaker, Sir, if sometimes party condemned me. Mr. Dandavate, In all decision has to be made in order to protect humility I shall say Shn Rajlv mIght have the lives of thousands, in order to protect asked that action be taken against me. The millions from going in the street and killing former Prime Minister whom I supported for each other, if some adion has to be taken it eleven months went to Balha in the 1984 is with regret and if the lady Member thinks eiedions and said, "why this gentleman that my regret makes any difference, I express contesting election from here? He is a regret that what has happened should have Bhindranwale of Ballia. He should go and been avoided. But the responsibility is not contest election in Punjab. '" did not take it as that of the State, this responsibility should be something personal when I supported him at shared by all those who are concerned. 1tell the time when we chose him to be the Prime you tnat on this question I do not want to Minister of this oountry because I thought 147 Motion of Confidence In NOVEMBER 16, 1990 Councllof Ministers 148

[Sh. Chandr~ Shekhar] vi!1ues and vices. WE could not afford to make the same speeches which we were that personal matters should not prejudice making during the elections. This is not the our political judgements. I might have way to run a nation-condemning Shri Rajiv criticised Rajivji and the Congress. He might Gandhi thatthere was rigging inthe elections. have criticised me. But does it rr.ean that And, rigging in the elections was known by when the country is in peril and in my as- Mr. Mufti when he became the Home Minister. sessment I may be totally wrong that elections W~en he was in the Congress, he never atthis moment-as manyfriends have said- remembered about the rigging. Is it the way will bring disaster to this country, I am not to run a nation? going to finish the work which has been started by the previous Prime Minister. I am When I talk about Bofors, Mr. Somnath not going to be a disaster to this country. I Chatterjee, I want to toll you-this is not what refuse to be so. And if it is a crime, I am ready I am saying today-that this is a peculiar to commit this crime. But in all humility I country where you say that the Prime Min- should like to say that I do not want coop- ister was dishonest, the Finance Minister eration from one sedion or one person or who framed the deal was the symbol of one party, I want cooperation from everybody. honesty. .. (Interruptions) About other issues I am not finding myself to be free. But, I ask Mr. Somnath Chattorjee, SHRI VISHWANATH PRAT AP SINGH: through you, Mr. Speaker, Sir, eleven months For the Prime Minister's information, if he back when we formed the Government, he looks at the file, the clearance was subject to was quoting our manifesto. Has he gone commercial, technical and otherr:iearances. through that manifesto? What happened in After that, the file never re~urned to me. Punjab? Has the situation brightened up there? What has happened in Kashmir? SHRI CHANDRA SHEKHAR: I agree When Rajiv Gandhi left Kashmir ... with him and I accept what he says. Should I take it that aft~r having the contract ap- SHRISOMNATHCHATIERJEE:What proved, the Finance Minister never had a did you do? look at the file or he was denied to have a look into the file? Either the Prime Minister SHRI CHANDRA SHEKHAR: Please was so innocent that the did not know the hear me. If you want I can say ... (Interrup- implication or he was a collaborator in the tions) I shall tell you. When Rajiv Gandhi left whole deal. If he was innocent, the oountry the Government, 2t least 25-30 per cent was not safe in his hands as the Finance people were openly associating themselves Minister. And this was proved subsequently with India. When our Government came, the that the country was not safe in his hands as first thing I got from the newspapers was that the Prime Minister. It is nothing personal and Mr. Jagmohan was going to be appointed as I am saying this just because at that time I Governor. I wrote a slip to my HomeMinister was not in the Government. I was not under saying: lilt will be a disaster, don't do it". the path of secrecy. Don't ask aboutthe files. Comrade Surjeet and Farooqi, and I pleaded I shall never mention about files in this House. with him saying don't do it. I said it not for Unless and until, Mr. Speaker, you direct and personal reasons. I had no friendly relations this House wants the files, on my own I am with Shri Farooqi. I tried to persuade the not going to divulge the secrecy of this Home Minister that we have gone all over the Government. But I want to ten you and assure world telling that there is an autocratic regime you, Advaniji, that on Bofors or on any case in Pakistan-occupied Kashmir, while we have of oorruption, there will be no compromise. got an eleded Government. I had strong But I also want to tell very frankly that State views about the Rajiv Gandhi Government. poWQr is not for personal vendetta. Nothing I never met Shri Rajiv Gandhi for five years will be done against anybody because of when h. was the Prime Minister. But Shri personal prejudice. Nothing will be done in Rallv Gandhi left the Government with all his order to protect anybody for personal 149 Motion of Confidence in KARTIKA 25,1912 (SAKA) Councllof Ministers 150 friendship. This Is what I feel should be the cooperation with all friendly nations, but I t8n right course for a Government to adopt. you, Mr. Speaker, we can steer through this crisis only by tightening our belts. Austerity is About Bofors I have said enough. What a must. The slogan of austerity given by is the situation in Kashmir? What is the Mahatma Gandhi was not a slogan, it was a situation in Assam? What is the situation in part of our economic strategy. Swadeshi and Tamil Nadu? Assam, Kashmir and Punjab swsvalamban-self-reliance and Swadeshi. we inherited from Shri Rajiv Gandhi but who By Gita Mukherjee' was asked this question. was brought about the situation to the brink We had no other option but to resort to in Assam and Tamil Nadu? A friend from that Swadeshi and swavalamban as much as IS side asked me to do something. I assure possible. But in critical areas we will have to you, Sir, and to the whole country that no get the cooperation from other nations. compromise will be made about the integrity and sovereignty of the nation, whatever the This is in a broad way what we want to consequences are there. I am already in achieve. Whetherwe shall be able to achieve touch with the Chief Minister of Assam and or not, only the future will tell. I do nol want to Tamil Nadu. I am going to discuss with them. make any tall claim. I know the limitations of I want that there should be proper action this Government, but I tell you, my friend- taken by them in order to restore peace and Advaniji, you know me for quite some time. law and order in that part. Otherwise things I can be anything, but I cannot be a PUf,Jpet. will take their own course. I do not want to I have not seen a person who can use me as conceal anything because the Government a puppet. I have dealt with much bigger of India is not so helpless. And if the Gov- people in this country. So far if I was not ernment of India here in Delhi is sitting reduced to a puppet, with your blessings and helpless, there is no right for any of us to support, rest assured that even in future, remain here, even for a minute. It is not the nobody is going to use me as a puppet. But question of prejudice. It is not the question of because some people are crying hoarse, I challenging anybody. It is the question of am not going to condemn those people who discharging our duty I would not like to say have come to support me, to help me In an anything more about that. All these questions hour of crisis, not my crisis, but the crisis of I have tried to cover. the nation and those who stand up to support me, I am grateful to them and I acknowledge 19.00 hrs. that support. I do not want to do things .n a clandestine manner. If I meet people, I meet About the economic poSItion, gross mis- them openly. Somebody said that I was management of the economy-I cannot say meeting secretly. Why should I meet anybody anythIng more and I can say, Mr. Speaker, secretly? Shri Rajiv Gandhi might have some that we have given wrong signals to our hesitation in meeting me. But f had never any people, to our industrialists, to our workers. hesitation in meeting Shri Rajiv Gandhi If I People feel frustrated and desperate. The can go to anybody and everybody after be- international community feels that India is on coming the Prime Mintster, before becoming the verge of collapse. Our citizens who are the Prime Minister, what was the hesitation outside Indian shores think that there is no before me to go to anybody's place? If oc- hope for India. But I assure you, Mr. Speaker, casion comes, I shall go to the doors of my that with your cooperation and the c0op- worst critics. But I assure you, whether you eration of these people. we shall lift this are a critic or a supporter, don't try to remove country from the muddy mire of misery, and me from the path which I have charted for we shall restore it to the glory that this natior myself. I shall like to use an Urdu couplet deserves. We only require the open support here: from our toiling masses, from our peasantry, from our workers. We want the cooperation of all Indians who are outside India because "Mere Kadam Ke Saath Hai Manzil they are as patriotic as we are. We want Lagi Hui, 151 Motion of Confidence in NOVEMBER 16. 1990 Cou'ncn of Ministers 152

[She Chandra Shekhar] please say 'Na'.

ManzUJahan Nahi Wahan Mere Kadam SOME HON. MEMBERS: 'No'. Nahin.- MR. SPEAKER: I think the 'Ayes' have You must start, I know my destination, I it. The IAyes' have it. know my goal. HI cannot go to the goal, I am not going on any path just for the courtesy of SOME HON. MEMBERS: The INoes' a walker walking all alone. have it.

Mr. Speaker, the last point that I should MR. SPEAKER: Let the Lobbies be like to touch upon is defection. Morals have cleared- been given about defedion. So many things have been mentioned, I don't want to go into Now, the Lobbies have been cleared. I them. But, Mr. Speaker, when the Anti-De- hope the Members are in their allotted seats. fection law was passed, there was a moral in I shall again put the motion moved by Shri it that if one-third people go out of a party. it Chandra Shekhar to the vote of the House. will not be treated as defection. h was not a concession to those who want to leave the The question is: party because it is not the defection. Peer'e should understandthatthere is another word 'That this House expresses its confi- which is called, 'dissent and protesf. Soci- dence in the Council of Ministers." eties move forward only because of dissent and protest. tf dissent and protest are not The Lok Sabha divided allowed, then society will stagnate and stagnation means sure death. When we see that something is going basically wrong and AYES the whole country is being tak9n towards disaster, it is our national duty that we should 19.13 hrs. dissent, that we should protest, and I am proud that my colleagues on this side pro- Division No. 1 tested against the things that were happening. I shall not go in to greater detail, Mr. Speaker. Adaikalaraj, Shri L. Sir. I crave the indulgence of all our Members. I ask for your support in this great endeavour. Agarwal, Shri J.P. in this great task which is ahead of us in order to give this country the glory and prestige Ahmed. Shri Kamaluddin that it deserves. Thank you all. Akbar, Shri M.J. MR. SPEAKER: I shall now put the motion moved by Shri Chandra Shekhar to Amat, Shri D. the vote of the House. Anbarasu, Era Shri The question is: Antony, Shri P.A. "That this House expresses its confi- dence in the Council of Ministers." Antulay, Shri A.R.

Those in favour will please say 'Aye'. Arunachalam, Shri M.

SEVERAL HON. MEMBERS: 'Aye'. Asokaraj, Shri A.

MR. SPEAKER: Thosa against wnl Athithan, Shri Dhanuskodi R. 153 Motion of ConfkJsnce in KARTJKA 25, 1912 (SAKA) Councllol Minist(lfS 154

Atinder Pal Singh, S. Charles, Shri A.

Baga Reddy, Shri M. Chaudhary, Shri Ram Prasad

Bajpai, Dr. Rajendra Kumari Chaudhry, Shr; Kamal

Bala Gaud, Shri T. Chauhan, Shri Prabhatsinh

Balaraman, Shri L. Chavan, Shrimati Premalabai

Bali, Shrimati Vyjayantimala Chennithala, Shri Ramesh

Banatwalla, Shri G.M. Chennupati, Shrimati Vidya

Banera, Shr; Hamendra Singh Chidambaram, Shri P.

Bansi Lal, Shri Chinta Mohan, Dr.

Basavaraj, Shri G.S. Chowdhary, Shr; Oasai

Bashesr, Shri T. Chowdhury, Shri A.B.A. Ghani Khan

Bengali Singh, Dr. Commander, Shri Mohd. Hassan

Benjamin, Shri S. Damor, Shr; Somjibhai

Shagat, Shri H.K.L. Das, Shri Bhakta Charan

Bhagey Gobardhan, Shri Deb Burman, Shri K. B.K.

Bhajan Lal, Shri Delkar, Shri Monhanbhai Sanjibhai

Bhakata, Shri Manoranjan Dennis, Shri N.

Bhardwaj, Shri Parasram Deora, Shri Murli

Bhatia, Shri Ram Sewak Deshmukh, Shri Anantrao

Shosle, Shri Pra~aprao Baburao Dev, S hri Sontosh Mohan

Bhoye, Shri Reshma Motiram Devarajan, Shri B.

Bhuria, Shri Dileep Singh Dev; lal, Shr;

Slrender Singh, Rao Ohakane, Shri Babanrao

Chand Ram, Shri Dhankhar. Ch. Jagdeep

Chandra Shekhar, Shri Dhawan. Shri Harmohan

Chandrasekhar, Shrimati M. Dinesh Singh. Shri

Chandrashekharappa, Shri T.V. Dore, Shri Raja Ambanna Nayak 155 Motion of ConJIdenc» in NOVEMBER 1S, 1990 156

Faleiro, Shri Eduardo Kalwi. Shri 'Kalyan Singh

Fernandes, Shri Oscar KamaIWdt, Shri

Gadg II , Shri V.N. Kamble, Shr:i Arvind Tulshiram

GaJkwad, Shri Udaysingrao 'Nanasaheb Kamson, Prof. MeijinJung

Gajapathl, Shri Gopl Nath Kareddula, Kumari Kamataji

Gamit. Shri Chhitubhai Dujlbhai IKasu, Shri Venkata Krishna 'Reddy

Gandhi, Shrimati Manaka Kaul, Shrimati Sheila

Gandhi, Shri Rajiv Keshari Lal, Shri

Gangadhar, Shri S. Khan, Shri ZuHiquar Ali

Gavit, Shri Manikrao Hodlya Kodlkkunnil, Shri Suresh

Giriyappa, Shri C.P. Mudala .Kcrrthala, Shri Rama 'Krishna

Gamango, Shri Giridhar Kotadia. Shri Manubhai

Gounder, Shri A.S. Krishna, Shri G.

Gowda, Shri D.M. Putte Krishna Kumar, Shri S.

Gudadinni. Shri B.K. Kumaramangalam, Shri P. R.

Gupta, Shri Janak Raj Kuppuswamy, Shri C.K.

Handoo, Shri Piyare Lal Kurien, Prof. P.J.

Het Ram, Shri Kushwaha, Shri Jagdish Singh

Inder Jit, Shri lakshmanan, Prof. Savithri

Jaffer Sharief, Shri C.K. Made Gowda, Shri G.

Jag Pal Singh, Shri Mahabir Prasad, Shri

Jamuna, Shrimati J. Malik Shri Mangaraj

Janardhanan. Shd Kadambur M.R. Mdikarjun, Shri

Jawali, Dr. Basavaraj Mane, Shri R.S.

Jayamohan, Shri A. Manemma. Shrimati T.

Jeevarathinam, Shri R. Manvar. Shrl Salvant

Jhkram. Shr1 Mohanlal Marak. Shri Sanford 157 Uotio,~ of Confidence in KARTIKA 25, 1912 (SAKA) Council of AfinJsters 158

Marbaniang, Shri Peter G. Pate~ Shri MIganbhai Manibhai

Mishra, Shri 8algopal Patel, Shri ShantiIaJ Purushottam Du

Mishra, Shri Janeshwar Patil. Shri Balasaheb Vikhe

Mishra, Shri Raj Mangal Patil, Shri Basavaraj

Mohamed, Shri E.S.M. Pakeer Patil, Shri Prakashbapu Vasantrao

Mohammad Shafi, Shri Patil, Shri S.T.

Mujahid. Shri B.M. Patil, Shri Shankarrao

Murala9dharan, Shri K. Patit, Shri Shivraj V.

Murthy. Shri Kusuma Krishna Patil, Shri Uttamrao

Murthy, Shri M.V. Chandra Shakara Patil, Shri Yashwantrao

Muthiah, Shri R. Penchalliah, Shri P.

Naik, Shri G. Devaraya Paruman, Dr. P. Vallal

Naikar, Shri O.K. Poojary, Shri Janardhana

Nandi, Shri Yellaiah Potdukhe, Shri Shantaram

Narayanan, Shri K.R. Prabhu, Shri R.

Narayanan, Shri P.G. Pradhani, Shri K.

Nayak, Shri Nakul Prasad. Shri R.S.

Netam, Shri Arvind Prasad, Shri V. Sreenivasa

Nikam, Shri Govindrao Purohit. Shri Banwarilal

Odeyar, Shri Channaiah Purushothaman, Shri Vakkom

Oraon, Shrimati Sumati Rahi, Shr; Ram lal

Pal, Dr. Debi Prosad Rai, Shri Kalp Nath

Palanisamy, Shri K.C. Rajdev Singh. Shri

Panda, Shri Rajmangal Rajeshwaran. Dr. V.

Pandian, Shri D. Rajeswari, Shrimati Basava

Panja, Shri Ajlt Raju, Shri M.M. Pallam

Patel, Shri Arjunbhai RaiU. Shri S. Vijaya Ram. 159 Motion of Confidence In NOVEMBER 16, 1990 Councilof Ministers 160

Raju, Shrimati Uma Gajapathl Reddy, Shri Y. S. Rajasekhar

Rakesh, Shri R.N. Sadul, Shri Dharmanna Mondayya

Ram 8abu, Shrl A.G.S. Sahay, Shri Subodh Kant

Ram Prakash, Ch. Sai, Shr; A. Pratap

Ram Sagar, Shri (Bara Banki) Sait, Shri Ibrahim Sulaiman

Ramachandran, Shri MuUappal1y Samad, Shri Abdul

Ramadass, Dr. R. Saran, Shri Daulat Ram

Ramakrishna, Shri Y. Sarwar Hussain, Shrl

Ramamurthy. Shri K. Sathe, Shri Vasant

Rang&. Prof. N.G. Sayeed, Shri P. M.

Rao, Shri J. Chokka Scindia, Shri Madhavrao

Rao, Shri J. Vengala Sekhar, Shri M. G.

RBO. Shri K.S. Selvam. Shri Kane; Panneer

Rae, Shri P.V. Narasirnha Sarna, shri Shiklho

Rao, SMi R. Gundu . Shah, shri Jayantllal Virehandbhai

AIID,r SM'i•• Stiftivas .. ' Shaky., Shri Ram Singh

. ,,-~~.~ Shanluwanand, Shri B...... :~ttJ .. Shanmugam, Shri P.

Ra1hDd, Shri Uftam Sharma. Shri Chiranji Lsi

Rathor, Or. Bhagwan Dass Sharma, Shri Dharm Pal

Rawat, Shri Harish Shastri, Shri Kapil Dev

Reddy, Shri A. Venkata Shekhada, Shri Govindbhal Kanjibhai

Reddy. Shri Kotla Vijaya Bhaskara Shingada, Shri D. B.

Reddy, Shr~M. G. Shukla, Shri Vidyacharan

Reddy, Shri P. Narsa Sidnal, Shri S. B.

Reddy, Shri R. Surender Silvera, Dr. C.

Reddy. Shri Rajamahan Singaravadwel, Shri S. 161 Motion of Confidence in KARTIKA 25, 1912 (SAKA) Councilof Ministers 162

Singh, Shrt Anand TIWari, Shrt Brij Bhushan

Singh, Shrt Dhanraj Umbray, Shri Laata

Singh, Shri Dharmgaj Varma. Shr; B. Rajarav;

Singh, Shri K. Manvendra Varma, Shri Dharmesh Prasad

Singh, Shri Lal~ Vijoy Venkatesan, Shri P. R. S.

Singh, Prof. N. Tombir Venkatswamy, Shri G.

Singh, Shri Ram Bahadu Verma, Shrimati Usha

Singh, Shri Uday Pratap Viswanatham, Dr.

Singh Oeo, Shri A. N. Wadiyar, Shri Srikanta Datta Narasimha lRaja Sinha, Shrimati Usha Vadav, Shri Baleshwar Solanki, Shri Surajbhanu Yadav, Shri Chhotey Singh Sonkar, Shri Kalpnath Yadav, Shri Hukumdeo Narayan SOZ, Prof. Saif-ud-din Yadava, Shri Ramjilal Srikantaiah, Shri H. C. Yazdani, Dr. Golam Sukhbuns Kauri Shrimati Yuvraj, Shri Sultanpurl, Shri K. O. NOES Suman, Shri Ramji l~l Abedya Nath, Mahant SundararaL Shri N. Acharia, Shri Basudeb Sunil Dun, Shri Advani, Shri L. K. Suryawanshi, Shri Narsingrao AgnJhotri, Shri Rajendra Tandel, Shri D. J. Ahar, Dr. Daulatrao Sonuji Thambi Durai, Dr. Ahmed, Shri Anwar Thapa, Shri Nandu Ajit Singh, Shri Thomas, Prof. K. V. Ali, Shrimatl Subhashini Thomas, Shri P. C.

Thorst, Shri S. B. Argal. Shri Chhaviram

Thungon, Shri P. K. Baig, Shri Arif 163 Motion of Confidence in NOVEMBER 16, 1990 Councilof Ministers 164

Bais, Shr; Ramesh Dikshit, Shri Narslnghrao

Baitha, Shri Mahendra Dome, Dr. Ram Chandra

Bala, Dr. Asim Fernandes, Shri George

Bankhele, Shri Kisanrao Baburao Fernandez, Shri Joss

Barman, Shri Palas Gangwar. Shri Santosh Kumar

Basu, Shri Anil Giri, Shri Sudhir

Basu. Shri Chitta Gujral, Shri I. K.

Bahara, Shri Bhajaman Gupta, Shri Dharmpal Singh

Bhargava. Shri Girdhari Lal Gupta, Shri Indrajit

Bhartiya. Shri Santosh Hannan Mollah. Shri

Bhattacharya. Shrimati Malini Hansda, Shri Matital

Bhattacharya, Shri Nani Harish Pal, Shri

Bopcha, Dr. Khushal Parasram Harsh Vardhan, Shri

Brahmbhatt, Shri Prakash Koko Heera Bhai, Shri

Chakravorty, Shri Susanta Hota, Shri Bhabani Shankar

Chatterjee, Shri Nirmal Kanti Jangde, Shri Resham Lal

Chatterji, Shri Somnath Jaswant Singh, Shri

Chavda, Shri Khemchandbhai Somabhai Jatav, Shri Than Singh

Choudhury. Shll ;Jai1LJddln Jatiya, Shri Satynarayan

Dandavate, Prof. Madhu Jena, Shri Srikanta

Danwe, Shri Pundlik Hari Jha, Shri Bhogendra

Das, Shri Anadi Charan Jorawar Ram, Shri

Oasgupta, Dr. Biplab Joshi. Shri Oau Dayal

Dana, Shri Arnal Ju Oeo, Shri Oilip Singh

Oe$hmllkh. Shri Chandubhai Kabde. Dr. Venkat~sh

Deshmukh. Shri Sudam Dattatrya KaJka Oas, Shri

Dhumal, Prof. Prem Kumar Kapse. Prof. Ram Ganesh 165 Motion of Confidence in KARTIKA 25, 1912 (SAKA) Councilof Ministers 166

Kataria, Shri Gu1ab Chand Mirdha, Shri Nathu Ram

Kaushik, Shri Purushottam Misra, Shr; SatyagopaJ

Khan, Shrl Arif Mohammad Mukherjee, Shrimati Geeta

Khan, Haji G. M. Mukhopadhyay, Shri Ajoy

Khan, Shri Sukhendu Munda, Shri Karia

Khandelwat, Shri Pyarelal Munjare, Shri Kankar

Khanoria, Major D. D. Naik. Shri Ram

Khurana, Shri Madan Lal Nathu Singh. Shri

Kirpal Singh, Shri Negi, Shri C. M.

Mahajan. Shrimati Sumitra Nehru, Shri Arun Kumar

Mahale, Shri Haribhau Shankar Nitish Kumar. Shri

Mahata, Shrj Chitta Pacherwal, Shri Gopal

Maheshwar Singh, Shn Pal. Shri M. S.

Makkasar. Shri Shopat Singh Pal. Shri Aupchand

Malhotra, Prof. Vijay Kumar Pandey, Prof. Yadu Nath

Malik. Shri Purna Chandra Pandeya. Dr. Laxminarayan

Malik, Shn Satya Pal Panl, Shri Ravi Narayan

Mandai, Shri Sanat -Kumar Panwar, Shri Harpal Singh

Manjay Lal, Shri Paranjpe, Shrt Baburao

Montosh, Shri Paul R. Paswan. Shr; Chhedi

Marandi, Shri Simon Paswan, Shn Ramvilas

Masudal Hossain, Shri Syed Patel, Dr. A. K.

Meena, Dr. Kirodi Lal Patel, Shri Chandresh

Meena, Shri Nandlal Patel, Shri Natubhai M.

Meghwaf, Shri Kailash Patel, Shri Prahfad Singh

Mehta, Shrimati Jayawanti Navinchandra Patel, Shri Ram Pujan

Mewsr, Shri Mahendra Singh Patel, Shri Somabhai 167 Motion of Confidence in NOVEMBER 16, 1990 Councilof Ministers 168

Pathak. Shri Harin Saroj. Shri Sarju Prasad

Patidar. Shri Rameshwar Sartaj Singh, Shri

Patil. Shri Uttamrao Lakmanrao Sayeed, Shri Mufti Mohammad

Patnaik, Shri Sivaji Selvarasu, Shri M.

Phundkar, Shri Bhaoosaheb Pundlik Shah, Shri Babubhai Meghji

Pramanik, Shri Radhika Ranjan Shakeelur Rehman. Dr.

Prasad, Shri Hari Kewal Shakya, Dr. Mahade'3pak Singh

Pram Pradeep, Shri Shastri, Shri Anil

Raghavji, Shri Shiwankar, Prof. Mahadeo

Rai, Shri M. Ramanna Shrivastava, Dr. Shailendranath

Raju, Shri Bh. Vijayakumar Singh, Shri Ajay

Rajveer Singh, Shri Singh, Shri Har Govind

Ram Awadh, Shri Singh, Shri Hari Kishore

Ram Dhan, Shri Singh, Shri Jagannath

Ram Sagar, Shri (Saidpur) Singh, Shri Lokendra

Ram Singh, Shri Singh, Shri Mandhata

Rana, Shri Kashiram Chhabildas Singh, Shri Radha Mohan

Rao, Shri K. Rama Mohan Singh, Shr; Ram Nare~h

Aawat, Prof. Rasa Singh Singh, Shri Ram Prasad

Ray, Dr. Sudhir Singh. Shri Ramashray Prasad

Raychaudhuri, Shri Sudarsan Singh, Shri Ramdas

Routray, Shri Nilamani Singh. Shri Sukhendra

Roy, Shri A. K. Singh. Shri Surya Narayan

Roy, Shri Haradhan Singh, Shri Taj Narayan

Roypradhan, Shri Amar Singh, Shri Vishwanath Pratap V

Sai, Shri A. larang Soren. Shri Shibu

Sai, Shri Nand Kumar Subedar, Shri 169 Motion of Conf.'d.nctlln I

Sur, Shrl Monoranjan Yadav, Shri Dev.ndra Prasad

Terlf Singh, Shrl Yadav, Shrl Janardan

Tarwala, Shri Amratlal Vallabhdas Yadav, Shri Kailash Nath Singh

Taslimudin, Shri Yadav, Shri Mitra Sen

Thakors, Shri Gabbhajl Mangaji Yadav, Shri Ram Sharan

Tiraky, Shri Plyus Yadav, Shri Ramandra Kumar Ravi

Tiwari, Shri Janardan Yadav, Dr. S. P.

Topdar, Shri Tarit Baran Yadav, Shrl Satyapal Singh

Tyagi, Shri K. C. Yadav, Shri Sharad

Ums Bharatl, Kumari Yadav, Shri Surya Narayan

Unnikrlshnan, Shri K. P. Yadvendra Datt, Shrl

Vaghela, Shri Shankersinh Zainal Abedin, 5hn

Varma, Shri Ratilal Kalidas MR. SPEAKER: Subject to correction- the result of the division is: Varma, Shri S. C. Ayes: 269 Vekarla, Shri S. N. Noes: 204 Verma, Shri Phool Chand The motion was adopted Verma, Shr; R. L. P. MR. SPEAKER: The House standi Verma, Shrl Sh80 Sharan adjourned sins die.

Vljayaraghavan, Shrl A. 19.14 hr••

Yadav, Shri Chun Chun Prasad The Lok Sabha then adjoumed sin. die

*The fo"owlng Members also recorded their votes:

AYES: Shrl eega Ram, Dr. K. Kalimuthu, Sarvashri C. Srinivasan, Munnam Khan, Palal K. M. Mathew, BrahmaOutt, Mankuram Sodhi, Y.S. Mahajan, Baaavapunnaiah Singam. Jai Parkash and B.N. Reddy.

NOES: Sarvashrl Rasheed Masood, Upendra Nath Verma, Samarendra Kundu, Ganga Charan Lodhi, Sukdeo Paswan, Gumsn Mal Lodha. Ish war Chaudhary. Shrimatl Vasundhara Raja, Sarvaahrl Rudruen Chaudhary and Ram Sajiwan

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