Ninth Series, Vol. X No, 3 Thursday, Oct 5,1990 Ashvina13, 1990/1917(Saka)
LOK SABHA DEBATES (English Version)
Third Session (Ninth Lok Sabha)
LOK SABHA SECRETARIAT NEW DELHI Price: Rs., 50,00 CONTENTS 'I {Ninth Series, Vol. X, Third Session-^Second Part, 1990! 1912 (S<^y\ No. 24, Friday, October 5 ,1990/Asvina 13,1912 (Saka)
C o l u m n s
Obitoaiy Reference 1-2
Papers Laid on the Table 19-22
Assent to Bill 22
Amendment to Directions by the Speaker— 22
Committee on the Welfate of Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes 23 Report of Study Toms—Laid
Statutory resolution re. approval of continuance in force of procla- mation in respect of Punjab 23-81 Shri Mufti Mohammad Sayeed 23 Shri P. Chidambaram 27-35 Shri Rajdev Singh 35-38 Prof. N. G. Ranga 38-44 S. Atinder Pal Singh 44-49 Dr. Thambi Durai 49-51 Shrimati Geeta Mukherjee 51-52 Shri Arif Baig 52-53 Shii Soatosh Mohan Dev 53-56 Shrimati Bimal Kaur Khalsa 57-58 Shri Kiipal Singh 5^61 Dr. Biplab Dasgupta 61-63 Shri Harbhajan Lakha 63-66 Ch. Ram Prakash 67 Shri Vishwanath Pratap Singh 67-80
Re. attention and care given by the Indian Hi^ Commission in 81-108 London to late Chief Justice of Ind*a Shri Satqrasaclu Mukheijee daring his illness— A dtting Judge <^Supteme/Hi^ Court to look into t]i0 Facts
0) (ii) Co l u m n s Discussion Under Rule 193 109-199 Commuial disturbances m Gonda in U.P. and elsewhere in the country 109-118 Shri H. K. L. Bhagat 118-124 Shri Brij Bhushan Tiwaii 124-132 Shri Rajveer Singh 132-136 Shri C. K. Jaffer Sharief 136-142 Shrimati Subhashini Ali 142-146 Shri Mitra Sen Yadav 146-150 Dr. Rajendra Kumari Bajpai 150-153 Shri Yuvraj 153-158 Shri Ram Naik. 158-162 Shri Kadambur M. R. Janardhanaii 162-166 Shri Ratn Krishan Yadav 166-168 Shri T. Basheer 168-171 Shri Nani Bhattacharya 171-174 Shri Chitta Basu 174-177 Shri Ibrahim Sulaiman Sait 178-179 Shu Suhan Salahuddin Owaisi 179-187 Shri Guman Mai Lodha 188-191 Shri R. N. Rakesh 191-193 S. Atinder Pal Singh 193-194 Shri Kalka Dass 194-195 Shri Ramesh Chennlthala 195-199 Shri Subodh Kant Sahay 199-200 Resolution Commitment to the idem of a Democmtic Secular State Matters Undet Rule 377- Laid 200-210 (!) Need to give cleai ance to the irrigation projects of Vidarbha region in Maharashtra 200 Shri Shantaram Potdukhe (ii) Need to provide financial assistance to the Government of Karnataka to rehabilitate devadasi<; 201 Shri C. P. Mudala Giriyappa (iii) Need to set up T.V. towers in hilly areas of Uttar Pradesh Shri Harish Rawat 201-202 <: - - t m
C o l u m n s i.iv) Need to provide financial assistance to the Government of Uttar Pradesh for construction()(repair of National High- ways, particularly National Highways passing through Mohamalgaiy Parliamentary Constituency 202-203 Shri Sarju Prasad Saroj (v) Need to set up a Bench of Allahabad High Court at Agra, Uttar Pradesh 203 Shri Ramji Lai Sumau (vi) Need to take action against the persons involved in damag- ing statues of Dr. Ambedkar 203-204 Shri Kalka Das (vii) Need to ensure direct purchase of raw jute through Jute Corporation of India and also *evise its remunerative price 204 Shri Ajoy Mukhopadhyay (viii) Need to ensure purchase of paddy by official agencies in Punjab 204-205 Shri Rajdev Singh (ix) Need to enact legislation for acceptance of human bodies after death for promoting medical research and popularis- ing life-saving organ transplants 205-206 Shri Gopi Nath Gajapathi (x) Need to regularise the services of Extra Departmental Employees in P & T 206 Shri Govind Chandra Munda (xi) Need to look into the problems faced by Indians living on Indo-Bhutan Borde. 207 Shri Manik Sanyal (xii) Need to take steps for the overall development of North Bihar 207-208 Shri Bhogendra Jha (xiii) Need to set up a T. V. relay centre eithet at Virol or Kusheshwar in Rosera. Bihar 208-209 Shri Dasai Chowdhary (xiv) Need to settle the Jharkhand issue amicably 209-210 Shri A. K. Roy Valedictory References 210-212 LOK SABHA DEBATES
We deeply mourn the loss of this LOK SABHA friend and I am sure die House will join me In conveying our condoloices to the bereaved family. The House may now stand in silence for a short while to express its sor- row. Friday, October 5, l990jA!>vina 13, 1912 {Sakat (The Members then stood in silenct for a sftort while.)
The Loic Sabha met ot four minutes [Translation] pust Eleven of t'u Clock SHRI HARISH RAWAT (Almo- ra); It is a very serious matter that [MR. SPEAKER in the Chair} the administration has got the people killed with the help of the police. OBITUARY REFERENCE (Interruptions) [Englishl MR. SPEAKER: Mr. Rawat. MR. SPEAKER: Hon. Members, please take your seat, I will listen it is my sad duty to inform the House to you later. Mr. Akbar, you also, of the demise of one of our former take your seat. colleagues, Shri Charanjit Singh, who was a Member of Seventh Lok Sabha SHRI HARISH RAWAT: BJP During 1980-84 representing South and Janata Dal have been doing it Delhi Constituency. Earlier he had jointly. (Interruptions) been a Member of New Delhi Muni- cipal Committee during 1975-79 and MR. SPEAKER: I would like also its Senior Vice-President during Shri Dinesh to tell us about the situa- 1976-77. tion in Gonda. As a leading industrialist, his valu- {Interruption^) able contributions in different econo- mic «nd other circles will always be MR, SPEAKER: I will listen rem«nbered. He had served on the to all of you. Mr. Soz, Board of Directors of the Air-lndia take your seat. In view of the serious- and Indian Airlines. He was also ness of the matter, please take your Member of Telephone Advisory Com- seat. mittee of Delhi in 1975. (Irtterruptlons) A widely travelled person, Shri Singh had a lot of interest in sports. SHRI HARISH RAWAT: Some- time on the basis of caste and scme- He passed away yesterday morning time on the basis of lie couotty, at New Delhi following a massive this Government (Interruptfots) it heart attack. cannot be tolerated. OCTOBER 5. 1990 MR. SPEAKER: I will listen to MR. SPEAKER: I shaU call you, your submission. Please take your please take your seat seat. It is a very important issue. Uherefcre, I shall request you to (Ittterruptions) take your seats. Yadvendraji, it does not look nice if a veteran member like SHRI MADAN LAL KHURANA you stands in that way. (South Delhi): Mr. Speaker, Sir, &st he should either tdl the names (Interruptions) or withdraw his words. I would like to say that the people who have \^nglish\ been arrested, were not from BJP. However, there were two people of SHRl DINESH SINGH (Pratap- the Congress among them...... {Inter garh): Sir, I should like to draw ruptions) the attention of the House to the happenings in Gonda District in Colo- MR. SPEAKER: It is a point of nelganj and the areas surrounding it. order of Shri Ram Naik. Please It is one of the shocking things that take your seat. a planned method is being used to build up communal tension around SHRI RAM NAIK (Bombay Ayodhya, This is going to create North): It is my fwint of order. As not only tension around Ayodhya or per rules no allegation can be levelled in U.P. but it is creating tension all against a party or a person in this over the country. It is this unfortu- House. Inspite of it, they have levell- nate policy that is being followed by ed allegations against B.J.P., I refute the Janata Dal Government of creat- it. [Interruptions) ing tension whether on the basis of caste or on the basis of religion that MR. SPEAKER: It is no point of is going to divide this country, unless order. this House takes full notice of it and takes strong action to stop it. What (Interruptions) is happening in Colonelganj is not merely a local incident. It is a plann- [English] ed incident of creating communal ten- sion all over. I am sorry to say that SHRI INDRAJIT GUPTA (Midna- some of the parties present in this pore): Wc have to decide how to House are participating in this. {In discuss this issue. Instead of that, terruptions) he is just making a statement. (Inter~ ruptions) [Englishi And Madhuji wants me to name SHRI DINESH SINGH: We have them. It is the BJP and the Janata moved an Adjournment Motion and Dal. we would request you that you may kindly admit that Adjournment Mo- (Interruptions) tion moved by Shri H.K.L. Bha®ft Why we are pressing for an Adjourn- SHRI YADVENDRA DATT ment Motion is that it is the respon- irnm krtion] MR. SPEAKER: Shastriji. please take your seat. I am not listening to MR. SPEAKER: Please take your you. seat. I am not allowing any body. (Intemiplions) SHRI KALKA DAS: Mr. Speaker. Sir, you should give us a hearing. SHRI MADAN LAL KHURANA: MR. SPEAKER: Both of you are Mr. Speaker. Sir. you have allowed speaking at the same time. How can them but we...... {Interruptions) I listen? First, let me speak and please take your seats. You will be MR. SPEAKER; I am not dis- allowed to speak when there is a allowing you. discussion on this issue. SHRI MADAN LAL KHURANA: (Interruptions) What I want to submit is that there is none from the B.J.P. amongst the MR. SPEAKER: All of you. first arrested persons. Since it has been please take your seats. said that the BJP people have been (Interruptions) arrested there. I would like to know from the Hon. Member the name of SHRI MADAN LAL KHURANA: even a single person for the BJP First of all, you allow us to seek among them. In fact there are the clarification on this issue. people of the Congress Party and the the Janata Dal who have been MR. SPEAKER: Mr. Ram Naik arrested. {Interruptions} has already given his clarification in this regard. MR. SPEAKER: All of you, please take your seats. (Interruptions) SHRI KALKA DAS (Karol Bagh): MR. SPEAKER: Joshiji, you have \fr Speaker. Sir. these are the people a loud voice. Therefore, you stand who are behind these riots but they up again and ai’ain. T am not allow- are blaming us and shouting here. ing you. (Interruptions) (Interruptions) MR. SPE.AKER: Mr. Bhagat, [English] please take your seat. I am on my legs. First, you take your seat. I am SHRI H. K. L. BHAGAT (East not allowing you. You, take your Delhi): Sir. yesterday, we—^four of seat. the MPs—visited the place. {Interrup- ticms) The situation is highly ex- (Memiptious) plosive. {Interruptions) MR. SPEAKER: I am saying that MR. SPEAKER: I have received I have not allowed you, Kalica Dasji, your adjournment motion. please take your seat. All of you, please take your seats. (Interrnptfons) (Interruptions) SHRI H. K. L. BHAGAT: Sir, vfl- lage after village, without any provo- MR, SPEAKER: Pandeyji, please cation. is being attacked. (Intarup' take your seat. I am not listening you. ti(Vts) People are being mercilessly (Irtterrupfions) butchered. (Interruptions) MR. SPEAKER: Mr. Joshl. it is BJP leader is res- not good, I am not listening you, I ponsible for this. am not tallowing you. {Interruptions) Sir. people are being (Interruptions) burnt alive. OCTOBER 5.1990 8 ilnterruptkm) This happening is MR. SPEAKER: Please take your way horrifying. seat. (Interruptions) {Interruptions) It is being created Qnter- by the political parties, here. SHRT M. J. AKBAR: Admmistra- ru/Oiom) They are responsible for {Interruptions) tion is not giving the correct infor- this. They are killers. mation. {Interruptions) {Interruptims) It is a national pro- blem. {Interruptions) The whole MR, SPEAKER: I am going to country is being destroyed by this. decide it. {Interruptions) /• (Interruptions) MR. SPEAKER: Mr. Tiwary, please take your seat. MR. SPEAKER: I will listen to you at the time when the issue comes (Interruptions) up for discussion and not now. MR. SPEAKER: No, you cannot (Interruptions) make your point. {Interruptions) MR. SPEAKER: I have received a notice for ‘Adjournment motion’. MR. SPEAKER: Mr. Bhagat, I am (Interruptions) (Ml my legs, please take your seat. (Interruptions) [En0sh] PROF. P. J. KURIEN (Maveli- [Translation] kara): Sir. I want to make a sub- MR. SPEAKER: The point is this misison. {Interruptions) that the entire House is worried about the issue on which you want to have MR. SPEAKER: Yes, what is your a discussion here. I^scussion should submission? But. do not go into the be held on it in the House and we merits of the case. are considering it. On this issue some (Interruptions) Members do not keep a bilance and talk irrelevant and waste the time [Translation] of the House. The point is as to in SHRI YAMUNA PRASAD SHAS- what form this issue should be taken TRI (Riva): Mr. Speaker, Sir, notice up. for Adjournment Motion is not in (Interruptions) accordance with the rules. SHRI M. J. AKBAR (Kisanganj): MR. SPEAKER: I am ^sing to Mr. Speaker, Sir. our villages had give my ruling on it. Please take not witnessed such riots as they are your seat. witnessing today. Today villages are (Interruptions) being set'on fire. ilnterruptiont) MR. SPEAKER: I have heard you. [English] [English] MR. SPEAKER: I agree with you. (Interrifptions) PROF. P. J. KURIEN: Sir, this morning in your chamber, we had a [Transtation] discussion when we made it clear that by this adjournment motion, we MR. SPEAKER: I am going to wanted to censure of the Government have a debate on it. But the point bee luse the Central Government has is as to in what form it should be responsibility to maintain communal taken up. harmony. Especially in this case, (Interruptions) tw J important points have to be noted. ASVINA13, m U S A K A ) 10 On the one hand, there is the Chief killed. Charges made by Shri Oinesh Minister of Uttar Pradesh while on Singh against the B.J.P. are totally the other hand is the Rathyatra which misleading. (Intemtpti(ms) I am of is taking placc. Both have contributed the view that the hon. Minister of to the situation. {Interruptions) There- Home Affairs should find it out as fore, we are not satisfied with just a to who were these people who were discussion. We mean a censure of the apprehended and who were the people Central Government. Therefore, we behind the riots. An inquiry should want and insist that the adjournment be instituted to find out whether they motion should be taken up. were Janata Dal activists or Con- gress (I) workers. {Interruptions) Please understand the importance and sensitivity of the subject. Let this [English] House not be deprived of an oppor- DR. THAMBI DURAI (Karur): tunity to say what it has to say and Sir, communalism has started in Tamil to censure this Government. There- Nadu. {Interruptions) The Chief fore, I request you to please allow Minister of Tamil Nadu said in a this adjournment motion. statement that it was because of the activities of the BJP in Tamil Nadu MR. SPEAKER; Mr. Indrajit that communal tension was there. Gupta. {Interruptions) Therefore. I would request you to admit this adjourn- SHRl INDRAJIT GUPTA: This ment motion and allow a discussion. is an extremely serious matter on {Interruptions) wliich the whole House is agitated. No doubt there should be a proper \Tr(tnslation] serious discussion on it. If you wish t(i admit the adjournment motion MR. SPEAKER: Please take your moved by some of our friends here. sent. T personally have no objection. But {Interruptions) I would like it not to be confined only to one communal incident. Dur- [Translation'] ing the last three or four days, you know what is happening. You know MR. SPEAKER; Please take your whal has happened in Udaipur. seat. {Interruptions) Today, news has some from Karna- taka. Pratapgarh, Ghazipur all these SHRI RAJENDRA AGNIHOTRI: places. (Intermptiom) My suggestion Mr. Speaker. Sir, you want to is that there should be a discussion. charges have been levelled against us. {Interruptions) What is the use of our Members should also be given an shouting at each other now? But 1 opportunity to express their viewpoint. would suggest, we should have a dis- (Interruptions) cussion. The Government, that is, the Home Minister, should make a state- MR. SPEAKER; A discussion will ment. On the basis of whatever infor- definitely be held on this, but it has to mation the Government has. let him be seen as to under what rule it could make a statement and let the discus- be taken up. sion follow thereafter. (Interruptions) SHRI RAJENDRA AGNIHO- [TrcmslafioTr] TRI: Mr. Speaker. Sir. you want to SHRT MADAN LAL KHURANA: hold a discussion, but do not want to Please listen to the views of the listen to our views. May be that after Members of B.J.P. also. (Interrup listening to our views, there may not tions) be any need of holding a discussion. MR. SPEAKER: What do you want SHRI RAJ VEER SINGH (Aonla): to say? Mr. Speaker. Sir. in the recent distur- (Interruptions) bances. a large number of people were 2-2LSS/ND/91 11 OCTOBER 5,1990 12 SHRI RAJENDRA AONIHOTRI: MR. SPEAKER: You cannot raise Mr. Speaker. Sir, since you have a procedural point, decided to hold a discussion, you (Intemiptionsy should also listen to our viewpoint. It could be that we may give you [Engftish] some good advice. SHRI HARISH RAWAT: Let me MR. SPEAKER: I did not refuse quote the rules Sir. {Interruptions) to listen to your views. MR. SPEAKER: I know the rules. {Interruptions) {Intarruptkms) MR. SPEAKER: What I wanted to MR. SPEAKER: No. Take your say is that today is the last day of seat Mr. Rawat. Mr. Somnath Chat- the session and many more items re- teijee. main to be discussed. The entire House wants to discuss the Gonda in- {Irtterruptions) cident. It is to be considered as to SHRI SOMNATH CHATTER- under what rule the discussion should JEE (Bolpur): Sir, there is no doubt bo taken up. that the situation is very serious. We also want a discussion on this grave SHRIMATI VfJAYARAJE SON- situation that is prevailing in this DfA: Mr. Speaker, Sir. please also country so far as the communal situ- allow our Members to put their view- ation is concemd. We want that a point. You have given an opportunity discussion should take place. Statu- to all the Members. Charges have tory Resolution is there. Let the Sta- been levelled against us, so Members tutory Resolution be taken up. I am of my party should also be given an sure that there will be no discussion opportunity to speak. Please give an on this: only voting will be there. And opporfunitj to at least one Member immediately thereafter, this discussion of my party and thereafter you may may start either under Adjournment take your decision. Motion or Rule 193. But the dis- cussion should start immediately after MR. SPEAKER: All right, let tlte the Statutory Resolution is passed. party leaders speak first. Then we Let us start the discussion on the .shall take up further discussion. whole issue and not limited to only a particular incident. (Interruptions) SHRI HARISH RAWAT: Mr. MR. SPEAKER: Mrs. Scindia. Speaker, Sir, 1 have a point of proce- {Interruptions) dure. Sir, as it has been stated by Shri Tndrajit Gupta just now, it is a [TransUtti(m\ very serious matter. The entire House is agitated over it. There is no other SHRIMATI VIJAYARAJE SCIN- way out than lo take up an Adjourn- DIA: Mr. Speaker, Sir, I was saying ment Motion in order to reflect the that allegations are being made seriousness of the situation. On be- against us without any basis. I would half of the people of this country we like to know as to how it is justifi- level charge that the B.J.P. and the able to make such allegations without Janata Dal have a hand in these com- any basis. {Interruption^ munal riots, (Interniptioiis) MR. SPEAKER: Hon. Members. I am listening to the views of party SHRI RAJENDRA AGNTHOTRI: leaders. Please take your seats. It is a conspiracy of the Congress Party. (Interruptimu/) {Intem^atons) SHRIMATI VUAYARAJE SC3N- SHRI HARISH RAWAT: Mr. DIA: I was saying that wild all^< leaker. Sir, the procedure is that... tions ate being made against us. Blow 13 A m m . js* i m { S A m 14 far it is justifiiible to levd Time aie riots at Banda in Uttar without m y baiis? ilMermpHons) It Pradesh, Kaniataka» Gajant, Udai- is a oonqjffacy to defame tbe Govern* pur and Rajasthan. The entire cotmtiy ment and our party. I would aot like IS burning and it is the consequence to say anything beyond tiiis. {/ntef- of the Rath Yatra started by Shri ruptions) AdvanL We must be given a chance to discuss the matter in detail, (f^ MR. SPEAKER: Hon. Members, terruptions), why are you standing, please take your seats. 1 am not calling you. SHRI CHITTA BASU (Barasat): Sir, I think the Home Minister and ilnterruptiom) the Government would agree that Uiere has been building of communal MR. SPEAKER: 1 would like to tension in different parts of the coun- say that allegations and counter*alle> try for various reasons. Therefore, ] gations should not be made in this think that the House should have the way. Just now I have stated that I opportunity of discussing the commu- would like to listen to the views of nal situation, which is very fast dc the leaders. When I am calling the teriorating, at the earliest opportu- leaders other Members are also getting nity. I have got no objection if in up. I would like to say that I shall your wisdom you accept the Adjo* give my ruling after listening to the urnment Motion moved by many views of two-three leaders. Members but what is needed is to pin-point tbe great danger which is [English] ahead us. Only a few days after the announcement of Kar Seva on 30th SHRI G. M. BANATWALLA October, some movements arc being (Ponnani): Mr. Speaker. Sir, vvc have held and some allegations are being also given an adjournment motion on made. There is also counter mobili- the communal riots and the worsen- sation. 1 am also one of those who ing situation. We want a discussion feel that there should be mobilisation under the adjournment motion. Wc of people but in the States where want to censure this Government. there is mobilisation on communal The Government has been so callous issue, I think the Government should that it has not cared to come forward not remain silent and the Govern- with a suo motu statement before ment should make a Statement ela- the House. When such is the situa- borating the whole thing that has tion, there is no sense in waiting here taken place all over the countrv and asking the Government to make a And this Hou.w should have an op- statement and then to have the dis- portunity of discussing it. We can- cussion. No, Sir. The discussion not afford to ignore this situation must be tak«i up on an adjournment which is developing in the country. motion. That is the seriousness of Communal situation has to be com- the situation. bated politically and Government should not remain silent on it. I MR. SPEAKE^: Yes. Shri Chitta hope you will agree to have a discus- Basu. sion and the Government will make a Statement on it. {Interruptions) [rwislationj SHRI JBRAHIM SULAIMAN SAIT (Manjeri): Sir, it is a matter of SHRI RAJENDRA AGNIHOTRI; deep pain and anguish that the entire Mr, Spedcer, Sir, the whole country country is in the grip of unparalleled is anguished over the situation that tension and communal riots. The has emerged in Uttar Pradesh during Central Government cannot cscape on the last few days. All this has been the name of law uid order because meted out to tiiic people of UP under protection of minorities is the respon- a planned ctMispiracy of which tii^ sibility of the Central Govemnwnt. had never expected of or experienced 15 OCTOIIER 5,1990 16 W the past. Qntemtptions) I would SHRl HARISH RAWAT: You JWe to Mame the Govamowot have called the Parliamentary Affairs of Uttar Pradesh for the situa- Minister. We are from that Slate. tion that has been created in the ^ te and for the {Hresent state dishar- mmy, and would like to hold them [Translation] solely responsible for the deteriorating situation. (Interruptions) The Chirf SHRl YAMUNA PRASAD SHAS- ^ister of aat State has his hand TR l: Mr. Speaker, Sir, as regards the ffl dicse Incidents and all the methods notice given by the hon. Members of bemg adopted thwe are his creation opposition in connection with the wly. E v ^ year in Gonda district... Adjournment Motion, I would like to Kinkmfptwns) If you want to hold state that an Adjournment Motion ft discussion on this topic* you cdn can be brought only under the rules do that. However it is absolutely of procedure of the House. (Interrup wron^ that the Communal tension tions) I feel that the communal situa- prevailing in the State is being con- tion in the country baa taken a serious verted into communal riots. The turn in the country but it does not Congress party wants to gain politi- warrant an Adjournment Motion. cal mileage out of this situation. The Sub-rule 3 of Rule 58 of the Rules Congress party also has a hand in the of Prtxxdure of the House provides situation. {Interruptions) I would that the Adjournment Motion shall like the Government to come out with be restricted to a specific matter of a satement is this regard. {Interrup recent occurrence involving responsi- tions) bility of the Government of India. But it is not the case of that nature. I would, therefore, request you ti> MR. SPEAKER: Please take your reject the Adjournment Motion, be- seat. {Interruptions) cause it is against the Rules. MR. SPEAKER: Please take your MR. SPEAKER: Shastriji, please .seat. Please do not raise slogans. take your seat. That is enough. {Interruptions) (Intel ruptiotts) SHRl INDRAJIT GUPTA: Please SHRl YAMUNA PRASAD SHAS- take a decision about the discussions. TRI: I would like to say that you Otherwi.se this State of Affair will can hold a discussion on this topic continui. {laterrupUons) within the ambit of the Rules. If they have no confidence in the Gov- SHRl NANI BHATTACHARYA ernment, they can bring a no-conlx- (Berhampore): A discussion could take dence motion. place on this subject under Rule 193, but it will not be proper to admit MR. SPEAKER:! Whenever you the Adjournment Motion. Tension is start speaking, you go nonstop. mounting on account of the commu- nal situation. As such, there should (Interruptions) be a discussion on it. Preventive steps should be taken to check such inci- dents. I would like to request the DR. RAJENDRA KUMARI BAJ- Minister of Home Affairs to make a PAI (Sitapur): The situation in Karnil- statement in this regard and there- ganj town of Gonda district has be- after a discussion could Uike place on come horrible. It has been ruined that basis. (Interruptions) totally. When I went there I saw...... [English] MR. SPEAKER: That is not the question. It is r^rding the proce- MR. SPEAKER: Siri Upendra. dure. 17 ASVINA 13. i m \ S M A ) IS DR. RAJENDRA KUMARI BAJ- is mdtiog communal paankm. We PAI: A large number o£ cfaildroi want to censure this Goveraitieat We have been killed there. reiterate our demand for an adjouni* ment motion. Notiiin^ short ctf an adjoununent motion will satisfy uc. SHRl M. I AKBAR: They have been burnt to death. ilnterruptions) MR. SPEAKER; Now Shrimati DR. RAJENDRA KUMARi BAJ- Geeta Mukherjoe. PAl: That is why an Adjournment Motion should be adniitt^ in this SHRIMATI GEETA MUKHER- regard. (Interruptions) JEE (Panskura) rose {.Interruptions) SHRIMATI GEETA MUKHER- [Engim JEE: Sir. please ask everybody to be responsible. And let us start the de- MR. SPEAKER: You also ask bate. 1 bescech everybody not to for ail adjournment motion. Now let play with fire any more. {Interrup' us hear the Minister. tions) {luterruptions) MR. SPEAKER: Please go to your IHE MINISTER OF INFORMA- seats. Yes, Mr. Poojary. TION AND BROADCASTING AND SHRI JANARDHANA POOJARY MINISTER OF PARLIAMENTARY (Mangalore); My submission is this; AFFAIRS (SHRl P. UPENDRA): I have given an adjournment motion. The Government fully shares the con- The entire House, except BJP and cern of the hon. Members from all the Janata ]>»1, agrees for the adjourn- sides about certain incidents which have ment motion. {Interruptions) They occurred in different States. We are do not have any objection. It is a prepared for a full discussion on this; very serious matter. The BJP is sup- and I suggest, for your consideration porting the National Front Govern- that the Home Minister will make a ment. Their leader Mr. Advani. who full statement. .^Interruptions) is a Member of this House, is leading the Rath Yatra. (Interruptions) SOME HON. MEMBERS: No. {Interruptions) There is no peace in the country. That is why we want to censure this SHRl P. UPENDRA: Wo can have Government. It is a very serious a discussion under rule 193....{Inter- matter. You allow Adjournment riiptions) Motion, ilnterruptiofis) MR. SPEAKER: I have heard all H.52 hrs. {At this stage, Shri R. N. the hon. Members and also the Minis- Roicesk cmne and sat on ter of Parliamentary AiTairs. 1 am the floor ttear the table). not giving consent to the Adjourn- ment Motion. {Inierriipiiom) (Interruptions) PROF. P. J. KUR3EN: Sir. 1 MR. SPEAKER; 1 am allowing dis- would like you to hear me. Sir. Don’t cussion on the communal situation you think it a serious issue for an under Rule 193 after the disposal of adjournment motion? Don't you think the Statutory Resolution. there Is enough reason to censure the (Interruptions) Government on this issue? It is the failure of the Central Cn>vemment. MR. SPEAKER: P i^ rs to be laid Their own friend is on Rath Yatra. on the Table—Sbri K. P. Unnikmh* inciting communal passion. Their nan. own Chief Minister..,. {Interruptions) 19 Pap«« Laid OCTOBER 5.1990 Papers Laid 20 1 1 ^ ht9. sub-section (I) of section 619A d the Companies Act, 1956:-— PAPERS LAID ON THE TABLE (1) Review by the Government on the working of the Central Electro- Review on the woiking ol and Amiiial ot nics Limited. New Delhi, for the Report the HoogUy Dock and Port year 1988-89. Eiqiliieefs Limited, Calcutta, for 198S* 89 and Statemmt showing reason for (2) Annual Report of the Central delay in taidng these papers Electronics Limited. New Delhi, for the year 1988-89 along with [Engliih] Audited Accounts and comments of the Comptroller and Auditor THE MINISTER OF SURFACE General thereon. TRANSPORT (SHRl K. P. UNNI- KRISHNAN): I beg to lay on the \P lated in Librury. See No. Tabic; - 12-1540/90] (1) A copy cacli of the following NoHiications under Bauliing Com- papers (Hindi and English ver- panies (Acquisition and Transfer of sions) under sub-section (I) of undertaiiings) Act, 1970 and 1980 and scction 619A of the Companies Statements for delay in laying these Act, 1956:- papers etc. (i) Review by the Govoninient THE MINISTER Of 1 INANCE on the working of the Hoogh- (PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE): ly Dock and Port Engineers On behalf of Shri Anil Sliastri 1 beg Limited. Calcutta, for the to lay on the Tabic;- - year 1988-89. (I) A copy each of the followijig Noti- (ii) Annual Report of the Hoo- fications (Hindi and English ver- ghly Dock and Port Engi- sions) under sub-section (4) of neers Limited, Calcutta, for scction 19 of the Banking Com- the year 1988-89 along with panies (Acquisition and Transfer Audited Accounts and com- of Undeitakings) Act, 1‘)70;— ments of the Comptroller and Auditor General thereon. (i) Ihc Punjab National Bank Officer Employees’ (Conduct) (2) A Statement (Hindi and English Amendment Regulations, versions) showing reasons ioi 1988 published in the Gazette delay in laying the papeis men- of India dated the 13th May. tioned at (i) above. 1989. [Pliued in the Lihiutv. See No. [PldicJ in Lihriuy. See No. / r - 1541/90] /;r-1539/90] (ii) The Allahabad Bunk OfTicer Review on the worlung of and Annual I’.mployees’ (Conduct) Am- Report nf the Central Electronics endment Regulations. 1989 Limited, New Delhi, for the year 1988- published in Notification 89 No. Legal/1/90 in the Gazet- te of India dated the 17th THE MINISTER OF STATE IN February, 1990. I HE MINISTRY OF SCIENCE [Pli^ed in Library. See No, AND TECHNOLOGY AND MINIS- TER OF STATE IN THE DEPART- /T -1542/90] MENT OF EDUCATION IN THE (iii) The Central Bank of India MINISTRY OF HUMAN RESOUR- Officer Employees’ (Con- CE DEVELOPMENT (PROF. M. G. duct) Amendment Regula- K. MENON); I beg to lay on the Ta- tions. 1976 published in bic a copy each of the following papers Notification No. G.S.R, CO- (Hindi and English versions) under PRS-LEGAL-89/136 in the 21 Papers Laid ASVINA 13,1912 (SAKA) Amend, to Dir. by W. S. 22 Gazette of India dated tbe {Placed in Library. See No, 18th Feibruary, 1989 together Lr-1546/90] with a corriguidum thereto published in Notification Ui) Amendment to Regulation 20 No. CX3-PRS-LE0AL: 89: (4) of the Andhra Bank Offi- 1360 dated the 30th Septem- cer Employees’ (Conduct) ber. 1989. Regulations, 1982. Placed in Lihrurv. See No. Placed in Library. See No. Lr-l543/90] Lr-1547/90] (iv) The Syndicate Bank Officer (4) Two Statements (Hindi and Eng- Employees’ (Conduct) Am- lish versions) showing reasons for endment Regulations. 1988 delay in laying the papers men- published in Gazette of India tioned at (3) above. dated the 24th December. Placed in Library. See No. 1988. 1546-1547/90] \Placed in Lihrarv. See No. /T -1544/90] (5) A copy of the Appellate Tribunal for Forfeited Property (Proce- (v) The Union Banii of India dure) Rules. 1989 (Hindi and Officer Employees’ (Con- English versions) published in the duct) Amendment Regula- Notification No. S.O. 70(E) in the tion's. 1976 published in No- Gazette of India dated the 22nd tification No. CO/IRD/ January, 1990, under section 77 3942/88 GSR in the Ga/ettc of the Narcotic Drugs and Psy- of India dated the 21st May. chotropic Substances Act. 1985 1988 together with corri- together with a corrigendum genda thereto published in therto published in Notification the Gazette of India dated No. S.O. 201(E) dated the 8th the 10th June. 1989 and the March. 1990. 30th September. 1989. \PI(iced in Lihrarv. See No, LT- PI 1 1 ^ hss. under article 356 of the Constitu- tion by the President, for a fur- COMMITTEE ON THE WELFARE ther, period of six months with OF SCHEDULED CASTES AND effect from 11th November, 1990.” SCHEDULED TRIBES (Interruptions). R«lM>rt of Study Toar MR. SPEAKER: I adjourn the [English] House for twenty minutes. I invite the leaders of all parties to my Chamber. SHRl ISHWAR CHOUDHARY (Gaya): I beg to lay on the Table 12.02 iirs. the RepOTt (Hindi and English ver- sions) on Study Tour of Study Group The Lok Sahha then adjourned till I of the Committee on the Welfare of twenty-five ininiites past Twelve of Scheduled Castes and Scheduled the Clock. Tribes on its visit to Bhubaneshwar. Koraput, Visakhapatnam and Hydera- bad during June, 1990. The Lok Sablia re-assembled at twenty-fh'e minutes post Twelve of the Cloi'k. fMR. SPEAKER in the Chair] 11J 9 hrs. STATUTORY RESOLUTION RE- [English] APPROVAL OF CONTINUANCE MR. SPEAKER: The Htaise IN FORCE OF PROCLAMATION IN RESPECT OF PUNJAB stands adjourned to meet at 2 pm. 12.26 hrs. The Lok Sahha then adjourned till THE MINISTER OF HOME AF- Fourteen oi the Clm'k. FAIRS (SHRI MUFTI MOHAM- MAD SAYEED): I beg to move: “That this House approves the continuance in force of the Pro- The Lok Sahha re-(membled at three clamation dated the lith May. minutes past Fourteen of ihe Clock. 1987, in respect of Punjab. Issued under article 356 of the Constitu- tion by the President, for a fur- ther period of six months with [MR. SPEAKER in tlw Chair] effect from the 11th November. 1990.” [Transltttion] SEVERAL HON. MEMBERS: 12.00 hrs. Ramchandraji ki jai. MR. SPEAKER: Motion Moved: [English] “That this House approves the continuance in force of the pro- SHRl P. CHIDAMBARAM (Siva- clamation dated the 11th May. ganga): Is it the last day of Lc^ 1987, in respect of Punjab, issued Sabha that they aie saying so? 25 ft. eppr^yal A S V tH A ti, m 2 (SAKA) infi>f<»<(fPr0c. U of combamce in t t ^ c t 0/ [TrmsUatof^ MR. SPEAKER: W« vfll be ttlc- inc up €be StBtutoiy Resolutiofi «od MR. SPEAKER: 1 c o (^ not after that we will be d^Kustii^; aboat bc«r. the conunimal situation in the otmatiy under Rule 193. Hwt will be moved SHRI MADAN LAL KHURANA by Mr. H. K. L. Bhagat. We wiU be (South Delhi): Mr. Speaker. Sir. what up the discurawm under Rule happened to the issue of granting 193 after the disposal of the Statutory state-hood to Delhi? Resolution. MSI. SPEAKER: Can’t you check yourself from speaking on Delhi? SHRI DINESH SINGH (Pratap- garh); Mr. Speaker, Sir, in the {Intaruptions) morning, you had an (^portunity to take the sense of the House on the cOTimunal issue. You saw how con* SHRI MADAN LAL KHURANA: Mr. Speaker. Sir. firing is going on in cemed the entire House was. We Delhi. {Interruptions) had moved an Adjournment Motion in the morning to consider this mat- ter. We had advisedly moved the MR. SPEAKER: If time permits, Adjournment Moti<» bwause it was I will give you an opportunity to not merely a question of law and speak. Please take your seat. order of any particular State. It was also not a matter merely for the ilaterruptions) House to debate it. It was a matter in which the Central Government has a special responsibility and we feel SHRI HARISH RAWAT (Al- that the Central Government should mora): Mr. Sipeaker. Sir, it is clear undertake that responsibility... cision. we have not raised any objec- SHRI KALKA D ^ (Karol Ba^): tion to it and we abide by your ded* The hon. Ifome Minister has to teply sion. in regard to the incident that took place in Oonda in Utter Pradesh. We ^11 now discuss this under Rule 193. An our request to you is MR. SPEAKER; No, the House that the Adjournment Motion moved is going to hold a discussion that by Sbri H. K. L. Bhagat should be issue. c [Englishil “to raise a dsscusti<»i <» the SHRI SONTOSH MOHAN DEV ccnnmuaal distmbances kt G THE MINISTER OF INFORMA- in which they could have evolved TION AND BROADCASTING AND the policy and impkmeoted the po- MINISTER OF PARLIAMENTARY licy, Their manifesto was written in AFFAIRS (SHRI P. UPENDRA): very hi^-sounding terms. They We have no objection. gave the impression that the m<»nent Rajiv Gandmi Govenanent went out of (rflce, the Punjab problem would SHRI SONTOSH MOHAN DEV: 1m solved. I want to remind this Sir. Prof. Madhu Dandavate said House that Punjab situation deter- yesterday that something will be said iorated first during Bamala's rule and today in the House about the Chief that deterioration continued. The Justice’s unusual death. What is tiie turning point came in June, 1988 decision about that? when we had ‘Operation Black Thunder’. After that and in a matt- er of sixteen months after ‘Operation MR. SPEAKER; You wiU know Black Thunder’ conditions were about it after we dispose of the Punjab created where elections could be held issue. Let us hear Mr, P. Chidam- in Punjab at least for parliament. It baram. does not lie in the mouth of this Government to say that election was totally vague, or totally unfair or totally not peaceful. If they say that, Mr. Gujral should first resign and 14.09 hrs. then this Government should say that. Mr. Gujral cannot continue as STATUTORY RESOLUTION RE. a member of the Coimcil of Minis- APPROVAL OF CONTINUANCE ters if this Government turns out IN FORCE OF PROCLAMATION to say that that election was not IN RESPECT OF PUNJAB—CowTrf. free or fair. Yes, there were prob- lems in that election, nobody denies that, particularly in the three consti- SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM (Si- tuencies which arc in the border vaganga): Sir, we have a Statutory districts of Gurdaspur, Amristar and Resolution on the continuance of Ferozepur. But conditions were President’s Rule in Punjab. Yester- created where elections could be day, we restrained ourselveis. Wc held, elections were held. Oie of did not speak at any of the stages the Members elected frran Punjab is of the Constitution Amendment Bill. a distinguished member of this Gov- We had sought your permission to ernment. a distmguished member of make some submissions thereafter. this undistinguished government, and But, since yesterday some other is- the longer he remains as a member sues have come up and we would of this undistinguished government, I like to make our submissions today. am afraid, he may become an un- We supported the Constitution distinguished member of an undis- Amendment Bill and we support this tinguished government ... ilniettup- consequential Resolution, not be- tiom). At 3 O’ clock we will know cause we believe that this Govern- whether he is distinguished or not. ment has a Punjab policy or be- We will know at 3 O’ clock when cause this Government will have he responds on the Kuldip Nayyar a Punjab policy. Let me make issue. that very clear. When this Government took over on the 2nd ctf December. 1989. it was not at Let me read out stane very inte- the end of a six-monthly period of resting statement on the recent his- President’s rule but only one month tory of Punjab. Four letters were after niesident’s rule had beat ex- exchan^ b^een Ae Prime Mktis- tended on the 11th of November. ter and tiie Leader the O^ppositiofl Therefore, they had full five months and I had made a brief rdterence to ^ Stat. iUs. K. A s m k li, 1912 iSAXA} inforcetffl^.in » ofcoMimuam respect o f JhtnfiA thm on Moaday. The third tetter today whea we point out mtf‘, was curt, almost impolite. fr<»n ll>e "Baad me” is not four days lat«r. Prime Minister to the Leadtir of the “Baad me" means four days later or OiqjositioB. He said: “Thank you 40 minutes later. "Baad me" is not for your letter'*. A major En^ish four days later only. “Baad me" can language newspaper said that the also be four years later. Prime Minister has said; “Eaou^ is. enough. I will not talk to him”. So. we thought, may be the Prime Minister really has a hot line with this Paper and the Prime Minister And, Sir, when we asked, ‘Can. jrou really thought enough ^^’as enough. assure u^, can you assure the nation Seven days later comes anoUier let- that elections will be free and fair?’ ter. And what does this letter say? there was no answer. In the Natio- It says: “The Government wants to nal Integration Council Meeting the hold elections at the earliest but same question was asked: “What do the BJP and the CPI and the CP1(M) you mean by saying early election?” do not want to hold elections.” 1 am And then they camei out with a start- surprised that the crutches cannot see ling theory, an almost astouding the game of this Government. This proposition, that the Government is a Government which has one mot- will extend President’s Rule for sbt to—pass the buck if that fails, pass months. and simultaneously an- the blame. That is the motto of this nounce the date of election. Sir, Government. They want to pass the never in the history of a democratic buck for decision-making to the Op- Government is there a better exam- position. to the supporting parties, ple of hunting with the hound and to the allies, to the crutches. imning with the hare. You want to If somebody fails to rise to the bait, have your cake and cat it too. You pass the blame. The Leader of the want to have President’s Rule and Opposition wrote back saying: “What )ioId election. Where is the date for do you mean by earliest? Is it be- election? Why was it not announced? fore 11th of November or after 11th .'5ir. this Government has no policy, of November? Do you want to have this Government caimot have a po- President's rule and then hold elec- licy. This Government has only tions or do you want to hold elec- one policy and that policy will tions after revoking President’s rule?” implemented in the next few days. This question has not been answered This Government will change tiie until this day. The Prime Minister Governor, The policy of this Gov- studiously avoided answering it des- ernment as far as Punjab is concern- pite a demand from this side that the ed is: Have a Governor for three Prime Minister should intervene. months and change the Governor. And he said—I will speak later, Have another Governor for three in fact, if I may quote Hmdi months, change the Governor. Last words, then the Home Minis- time they found that on the 24th ter will decline. He said. 'Baad m&. offering, Shri Virendra Varma accep- I suppose “Baad me" means after- ted Governorship. This time, con- wards. (Interruptions). He said that sistent with your 76th Amendment, on that day. Unfortunately, you perhaps you have to offer to 76 per- have moved out of your complacency sons before anybody accepts C ^- and smugness cmly ^ e n we admi- emorship of Punjab. So long as Shri nistered shock treatment to you. But V. P. S in ^ is Prime Minister, so on Monday we administered a shock long as 1 ^ Mufti Mohammad Sa- treatmiait, you came out with the yeed is the Hcane Minister, nothing package... Widi you presiding, Mr. will move in Punjab, there wUi be no policy in Punjab and nothing can Arun Ndim participating and with be expected oil this Goveroment. And Mr. Arif Mobammad Khan partici- what did the Home Minister lay? pating you brougfit a padcage. But What k he going to do in P^ao? 31 Stat. Jdes. re. approvat OCnrOBER 5,1990 in fm te ^ Pne, in 32 o f eantbmanee re^ct tfih e^ {£3i. P. C3udantbar&m] SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: I am telling you. I wiQ give you thwe He said; “We have made 130 kUo> three cases. 1 will see to it that you metres of fendng ” I dtought he have these three cases. He says; ^ould have the courtesy to say that out of these 130 kilometres of fen- cing, 123 kilometres were laid dur* “His latest stance is that he ing the tenure of the previous Gov- would go for another extension, ernment. In 10 months they have but will fix a date for the poll laid 7 kilometres of fencing. Except along with it. Thus, he wants to this single adtievement of 7 kilo- project the impression that he is metres of fencing, nothing has been going for mis course mudi done in Punjab. against his will.” SHRI SONTOSH MOHAN DEV: Who says this? This is by Mr. Subject to correction, it is sevcn-and- Jagjit Sing Anand. In another state- a-half kilometres. ment he says: SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: Yes, “The fact that a Minister of the seven-and-a-half kilometres. Half-a- Central Govemmoit during his kilometres was done between Mon- recent visit to Kapurthala had a day and today! secret tete-a-tete with an extre- mist group and went to pay ho- mage to the Taksal Chief. Baba Thakur Singh openly, only Sir, this is what the distinguished proves the point.” writer says: “The Prime Minister's dilemma “It has no policy for the Punjab arises from the fact that his al- at all. Otherwise, the Prime lies, both on the Right and the Minister would not be over-rea- Left are dead set against elec- ching himself to win the goodwill tions. And whatever be his own of those dead-set against our perception or that of the party integrity and sovereignty and he leads...... ” would not be craving for. tte imaginery opportunity lost after his first Amritsar visit." We do not know it because the Jana- ta Dal’s leader even on Monday said from Bangalore that the Janata Dal Now, Mr. Jagjit Singh Anand, I Government wants to hold election believe, is a former Member of Raj- even while here the Prime Minister ya Sabha and a Member of the Na- and everybody is moaning the failure tional Council of the CPI. of the Constitution (Amendment) Bill. Sir. here is another document and “... We cannot survive without 1 thmk some oth» Members will be the support of these allies.” pleased to read this document. “The terrorist menace which was. till about 6 to 8 months back THE MINISTER OF HOME ^ t is wh«n the Rajiv Gandhi AFFAIRS (SHRI MUFTI MOHAM- Government demitted olBce. MAD SAYEED): Who says tllat? confined to cotain pockets faj 33 Sm.Mes.re.ttppnml ASmHA IX 1912 (/SAKA) ittforce k U 0/ etmtimmce resgtm the batdcir anas, has spread to Sir, we abstained from the Consti- most parts of the State right tution (Amendmeitt) Bill to prove:* (I) froaa Outndigarh to Aboluur. !n &e chaiacter of your Gcvv' the Jeera tdi^ of Fero2|>ur dis* enunent: (2)die precarious nature of trict. the security forces no your governance. What you tiy to longer dare to assert their autbo- do is to project a myth. This Gov- rity. ‘Khalsa-j»nchayats’ have ernment is a bubble; often enough, this been set up givins the seal and bubble must be pricked to show that sanction to Khalistan. No poli- this Government has no legitimacy tical party is allowed to enter and no moral authori^ to rule tim these areas.” country. That is why we had absta- ined. Even yesterday, whm the This is the record of this Government number went up as 380, we had 1 ^ in the last 10 months. or 161 people of this side leaving only 220 on your side and finally when Sir, they had S months ia that spell 353 went up in the second stage, we of President's rule; they had another had 151 on this side and in the last 6 months from the 11th of May to stage, when 432 went up on the board 10th of November and in 11 months we had 182 on this side. this Government have not been able to evolve a policy in Punjab and we do not believe it will be able to evolve a policy in Punjab in the next sbc months. But this Government and this 14-23 hrs. [MR. DEPUTY SPEAK Prime Minister, the problem of them ER In the Chair] is their self-righteousness. You take cover under a self-righteous position that you are morally, ethically and politically superior to everybody and The point we are trying to make therefore what you think, what you is, with your minority character, with say. what you do and what you do the precarious nature of your Gov- not do is right and nobody need be ernment, with your supporting parties consulted in 10 months, the halo has totally opposed to you on the basic gone; I do not know when the crown issue in Punjab, with no standing will go. Tt will, perhaps, go courtesy and no locus as far as Punjab is con- the BJP by the 30th of October. So. cerned. we do not think that you will the halo will go, the crown will go, have a policy ever in Punjab. but nothing will improve in Pun- jab. What is the problem? The Sir, as far as elections are concern- problem is not only the mino- ed, our party’s position is. very clear. rity nature of this Government; When we held elections to Parliament, the problem is the precarious we raised an expectation am^mg the quality of its governance. Everytime people that following Parliament elec- an issue comes up, the Janata Oal tions, elections will be held to the and the National Front go into a Assembly and I believe that if a firm hurdle and everytime you come out and forthright policy had been con- of a hurdle, you go into a muddle tinued in Punjab, we could have held and if you get out of a muddle, you elections to the Assembly. We would get into another hurdle. This is what like elections to be held at the ear- we see. A meeting is held here, a liest. But since you are in Govern- meeting is held in the South Block, ment. since you have possession of a meeting is held in the North Blodc information from intelligent sources, it and a meetit^ is held in the Home is for you to tell the nation—not fmr Minister's c^Bce. But, what coraeis us—that you can assure free and (Hit (A it? Nothing comes out of it. fair elections in Punjab. This ques- 35 Stat. Res. re. approval OCTOBER 5,1990 in force of Proc. in 36 tfconthiuance respect of Punjab [Sfa. P. Chidambaram] submitted by me on 1st October while tion was not answered by the participating in the debate regarding Prinie Minister. This question was Constitution (Amendment) Bill seek- not answered in the National Inte- ing extension of President's rule, the gration Council meeting. This ques- elections are not going to solve the tion has not been answered by the Punjab problems. There is absolutely Home Minister and 1 do not know no point in fixing the date for holding whether the Prime Minister, when he of the elections in Punjab. That will intervenes, will answer this question. not serve any useful purpose. Let the When does the Government expect to hon. Prime Minister fix a Qrm date on assure that free and tair elections will which the Government is going to be held in Punjab? If you cannot declare the Sikh as separate religion make that asiurance say after a per- meaning thereby, you are going to iod of one month, two moths or six make the Hmdu Succession Act, the months, then you have no moral Hindu Marriage Act, the Hindu Ado- authority to ask for extension of six tion and Maintenance Act and the months of President’s rule. But since Elindu Minorities and Guardianship you arc in Government and we re- Act inapplicable to the Sikhs and en- fuse to accept the buck that you have acting new enactments for application passed to us, you must take the deci- to the Sikhs. sion and you must take the responsi- bility. We go along with >ou uncon- Further the Government should vmced by your capacity or ability or amend article 25 of the Constitution competence, unconvinced by your in- of India to declare the Sikh religion telli^nce in evolving a policy, un- as one of the religions and the date convinced by anything that you do. should be fixed for this purpose. If We go along only because you can- the date is fixed only for holding of not assure fte country that you can elections, then elections will prove hold free and fair elections in Pun- diaster rather than to serve any use- jab. Therefore, Sir, we hold this Gov- ful purpose of bringing back normalcy ernment squarely responsible for in- in Punjab. competence, inaptitude, and worse, we hold this Government squarely responsible for trying to hide its sins The Government should take steps of omissions and tjommissions behind to repeal the Act to Prevent Misuse self-righteousness and smugness and of Religious Place. That Act was en- in every opporunity we shall adminis- acted by the previous Government ter shock treatment to you so that with the sole purpose to hurt the feel- you come out of complacency and ings of the Sikhs. The religion can smugness. We believe that in the next never be separated from the politics. six months things will only get worse Politics and religion in Sikhism are and six months later. Parliament will inseparable and will go together. The have to meet once again, may be to background of that Act was after the mourn the demise 4)f this Govern- Black Thunder, the Ciovernment in ment. if not sooner. order to hurt the sentiments of Sikhs, had brought this enactment. It is for MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: 1 am the present Government to repeal that informed that the Parties are not enactment and to restore the confi- fielding their Members to speak. Only dence among the Sikhs. two or three Members are likely to speak and then the Resolution will be passed. Thirdly, the Government should Now I call upon Shri Kirpal Singh declare Jats amongst backward class to speak—not here. Shri Rajdev and they should be included in the List of Backward Classes because Singh. Jats are essentially backward class. SHRI RAJDEV SINGH (Sangrur): So, they must be included in ‘’Other Mr. Deputy Speaker. Sir, as already Backward Class.” •37 S/a#./iifs. ff, ap/»rov THE MINISTER OF FINANCE Sikhs may have a chance to serve the (PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE): motheriand and to defend the Marathas should be included in the land. I want to make it cleat tlmt I backward list want every step should be taken with- in the framework of the Constitution SHRI RAJDEV SINOH: It is for of India and there can be no challenge you to raise this question. I am not to tiie unity and integrity of India coflcerned at this stage about that from the Sikhs. Sikhs would never matter. It is for you to raise this like to pose a challenge to the unity point. and integrity of India. SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: You The extortions and the murders of must confine youself to Punjab policy innocent persons are goin^ on in Puij- issue. jab. Suppression is continuing. It is continuing on sudi a large scale that it is difficult to state in accurate words SHRI RAJDEV SINGH: 1 am talk- the way in which the full suppression ing about Punjab policy, not about is going on in Punjab. The extortions Marathas. It is up to you to discuss are being committed both by the anti- about it. (Interruptions) Now I am social elements as well as by the talking only about the decision on police. There is need to check it up. Punjab issue. We should view the Punjab problem as a national pro- blem and should appreciate it from I again request the hon. Prime that angle. When we are going to Minister that he should fix a firm date discuss about Punjab, you raise the on which the Sikhs are going to be issue of another State and when we declared as a separate clan. The Sikhs are discussing the problem of Har- are full of faith in the Prime Minister yana. then you raise the issue of Pun- of India and the Sikhs have confi- jab. You should raise the matter that dence in the hon. Prime Minister. is being discussed in the House. (Interruptions) (Internipriom) Again, I want to make it clear that there can be no challenge and nobody All the Sikhs who were detained in can challenge the sovereignty, the Punjab on various charges should be unity and integrity of India and the released unconditionally as was done Sikhs will guard the Motherland in in Mizoram and Nai'aland at the time case of any attack on Punjab, on of the settlement of the issue. There India. The Sikhs have full confidence will be no harm if the name of the that the hon. Prime Minister of India present Punjab is changed from Pun- will take immediate steps to restore jab to Khalistan. Khalistan is within the confidence of the Siichs. We have the Constitutional framework. The full faith in the leadership of hon. name of the present Punjab can be Prime Minister of India. changed as Khalistan because the names of Nagaland and Mizoram were also given for the sole reason PROF. N. G. RANGA (Ountur): that these States have vast population Mr. Deputy Speaker. Sir. my hon. of Mizos and Nagas. (hterruptims) friend Shri Chidambaram has already There is no harm in changing the told the House how this Government name. Confidence can be restored. cannot itself be depended upon to find a proper solution to this Punjab problem. From what my hoo. fHend. Steps should be taken to introduce who hails from Punjab, nas just now the recruitment of ^ h s in the armed said, if we have to allow the over- ‘ forces of India. Unterruptkm^ Now flow of this kind of a division amongst in the Armed Forces (rf India, the oundlves on to the Punjab electio- Sikhs are only 2% and their stnmj^ nttecing arena, my fear is that tbtw should be increase so that tiie wouk] vote only for those KhaUstaais 39 Stat. Res. re. approval OCTOBER 5,1990 infa^ce o f Proc. in 40 of cominuance respect o f Punjab [Prof. N. G. Ranga] Within six months, you must see to and what is worse, for all those who it that democratic forces succeed, that are demanding self-determination for those pe(^le who dm and for self- Punjab. Mr. Mann—^not the present determination do not succeed. Pun- one but the other one, their l^ e r I jab people are not only Sikhs, My su|^>ose and their swiior—who has hon. friend must remember that they circulated his memorandum among would not care because they are carri- our Members has left no doubt at ed away by the same kind of funda- an in what he is aiming at. They mentalist madness from which Adcis- want self-determination for Punjab. tan had suffered and because of the Therefore, they would go to the polls British alliance and British support, on that demand. What are we going they were able to succeed in having to do? All the diffwent political par- Pakistan. These people would not ties which are represented here, have it so directly. But. nevertheless, national poUtical parties, the two they have got the support of the ter- Communist Parties, the BJB, the rorists and terrorists are holding sway Janata Dal and the Congress, what there in Punjab and against the demo- are they going to do? Are we going crats. to fight against each other in the coming elections? I take it that the So far as democratic forces are Prime Minister as well as all those concerned, at one time, we might not friends who are supporting the Prime be prepared to accept these friends Minister and his Group in Parliament, from the Communist Party to be as is keen about holding elections in good democrats as the rest of us. Punjab. During the elections, what But today, they are also democrats. will happen? Mr. Mann, who is there They swear by democracy in what- outside this House, who refused to ever land it is, from wherever they come to this House unless his demand were having their inspiration earlier. has been accepted to hold the sword Whether they derive any inspiration 3 ft. long, named in a religious man- or not is another thing which I leave ner as Kirpan, that gentleman stands it to them. Today they are also demo- by self-determination. He is in league crats. We are democrats. Are all directly or indirectly, openly or secre- the democrats going to raise them- tly with those people who are carry- selves in some form or the other in ing on terrorism and violence threa- a imited form in the name of India, tenine everybody in the whole of in the name of Indian nationalism, Punjab. Are we goinK to allow him Indian democracy? (Interruptions) and his colleai^es also who stand in For God’s sake, I am not going to the elections, threaten everybody hold- make any controversial speech now. ing the threat of death at every candi- (Merrupfions) date. whosoever cares and has f>ot the courage to stand by their candi- SHRI BHOGENDRA JHA (Madhu- date? Are we goinc to allow him to bani): The Communist Party of India have his own say in those elections, was among the first communist while we sso on fij^tins among our- parties of the world before even selves? This is the challence which the CPSU could think of it. In 1958, the hon. Prime Minister as well as the Communist Party of India decid- his colleaKues will have to take them- ed at Amritsar not through any re- selves seriously. We cannot think of solution but by way of the Preamble extendinis the President rule anv to the Constitution that CPi would lonser than the six months period. strive for peaceful naft of socialism. Mr. Mufti may be there or may not And if it is established, then there be there. But six months oeriod is will be full freedom, even freedom of the maximum oeriod. Within this Ttolitical opposition, to oppose soda- period, you have got to Irold elections lism if they aWde by the Omstitution. whatever be your oolitical conveni- C H m t among the fewest parties in ences and political consequences. the worid b ei^e any divisioB and 41 Sttat.m,r^.mr<»vdhSmfkn,m%iSAKA) U tM egttf^,ia 42 cf eonikmtm fesptct thst was in 1958. I rtqwest ?iofes8or Who are we? Are w© going to be to get himself o<»tected. Indians or not first and last? After that you can divide yoonelvw io^ PROF. N. G. RAN<3A : I am not various political parties. lU s is the here to have any kind cf controversy appeal I wish to make. My hon. Matd with my friend in the CSOmmunist Mr. Dass has made a vwy good Party now. I stand corrected. I have suggestion. The Governor is already said that today the commu- There should be a coundl; i^Msre nists friends also are democrats. They should be advisors also. The oottncil can be democrats. All of us are should consist some Manben of democrats excepting these fundamen- this House, also advisors should be talists, these self-determination-wallas chosen from amongst those Punjahis and those terrorists in Punjab. It is who are genuine^ loyal to Jadia, for our friends now to decide. We India's unity and Itulia’s donocracy. have been talking of democracy. But Start it that way in a n tProf. N. G. Ranga] each other. But. it shouJd be tree face bullets and swoids and all the from the buU ^ of the terrorists. Who other challeages that come fr when you free yourself from self* stitutional limit in this regai4s is only interests aixi prejudices. 1 would like five years. At any cost, you cannot to ask some questions in brief from suspend democracy for than five the Hon. Prime Minister and from the years. After 5 years, you have to go leaders of all the parties sitting in this to the people for electing a Govern- House. ment. Then why are you side-trw^- ing this issue? Don’t you have the First: If this country is called courage to face the people? What is Hindustan, no hon. Member sitting in the meaning of this democracy, if you this House raises any objection to it. and the democracy of thu country do I would like to ask if Atinder Pal Singh not have the courage to face the says that Hindustan is an unconstitu- people? tional word and that it should be ex- punged from the proceedings thit have Fourth: I do not want to raise have taken place till now, he would these questions, but I am forced to do be levelled as a traitor for taking this so because whenever representatives constitutional step. Will it be proper? of Punjab say something, they are Show me a single sentence in the looked upon with suspicion. A lot Constitution where India has been has been said about the police. referred to as Hindustan. The name of our country is Bharat. Can’t you 15.00 hti. see communialism and treachery in What J am telling you js based on using the word Hindustan? Is such facts. I pose this question to the na- a thing in the interest of the country? tion. If the car of Atinder Pal Singh But when I raise any demand in the was seized and his driver arrested on House. I am levelled as a traitor, even 17th December by the Batala Police though my demand is constitutional. for the simple reason that Atinder This House should make it dear whe- Pal Sin^ visited the houses of the ther it is ready to accept us or not? people killed in police encounters, then 1 want to ask as to what action was S eion d: When I have been elected taken thereon after the matter was to this House, am I a Member of brought to the notice of the Home Parliament or not? And if it is so, Minister. I.G., Police and Punjab why am I looked upon with suspicion? adminiistration? What is our fault Why don’t you free yourself from pre- that we are not allowed to move in judices? If you can’t do so, I also our own country? When a member take a pledge today that we will make belonging to B.J.P. is arrested, the no effort to free you from your pre- entire House imtodly protests against judices. Should all the efforts be it but why similar protest is not made made from our side only? Has this in our case? Atinder Pal Singh is country no duty towards the people of threatened by S.S.P., Patiala that if he Punjab? Will this country always did not mend his ways, he would get look upon the people of Punjab with him killed in an encounter! Is the susfM^cion? If this is your view. I House concerned with the safety of cannot support it the member of Parliament? How can an S.S.P. have the audacity of re- Third: You must think before fusing meeting a member of Parlia- you bring the amendment here. De- ment and shutting the door of his office mocracy is being muidca«d there for saying that he might go and com^^aint the last three and half yeari. The to anybody? My S.P.O. was arrested entire nation except Punjab is on one only because he belonged to Atinder side. As the sitoatioQ is Punjab is Pal Sio|^. I Inought this matter to not stable, you can murder the demo- the knowledge of the Home Ministei cracy there. At least, you sliould do and tiie M ne Minister. At tiist time, some re«tbin]dng. Bven Ood excuses there was no case against the 3 murders, but yoa have done more When it was broui^t to their notice, than (bat Wheve is fbe limit? Con- a twdve bore country made gun was 47 Stat. Aes. re. approval OCTOBER 5,1990 in f0re0nfPm c. in 4S of eontbumee, respect o / JP^ofr [S. Alinder Pal Singh] The Prime Minister should make an announcement for their release today put on his shoulders. He was kept itself. under detention for 22 days. The D.C., Batala wrote a letter to the If you want to win the confidence Punjab Ifome Ministry stating that of Punjab then why does the House th«re was no case repstered against not express its renet over what had that person. The day I brought this happened in 1984? If a minor acci- fact to the notice of the Home Minister dent takes place and 10*50 persons are he was charged of possessing a country killed, then the House expresses its made 12 bore gun. Is it something grief but why this House has not con- that is in the interest of the nation? veyed its condolences to the next of If it is so, we are not prepared tc* kins of those killed in the 1984 riots accept it. We are not willing to co- which were actually engineered? I operate in such an atmosphere. If want the Prime Minister to take an you are genuinely interested in solving initiative in this matter and bring a the Punjab problem, you must stop resolution to this effect. I would like hollow slogans. 1 want to say in very (0 make it clear that this should not unambiguous terms that Punjab is be termed as demands. The Govern- totally fed up of these slogans of ap ment is responsible for creating these peachment. Please give these slo- problems. The Government will have gans a practical shape and tell us in to solve these problems and rectify the clear terms the facilities slated for blunders they have committed. None Punjab. What are your views on Pun- but the Government has to do this. jab? Do you accept Sikh as Sikhs or If the Government shirks from it, it not? The maximum punishment should not expect the solution of the under the Act is three years but the Punjab problem. Sikh youths in Punjab have been in custody for more than five years. For what fault of theirs is this discrimina- My concluding submission is that tory attitude being adopted towards solution to any problem cannot be them? On what ground have they found unless we approach the person been kept in jails for a period extend- responsible for creating the said pro- ing upto five years without trial. Please blem. Why don’t you contact those Jell us as to why the sikhs are being persons who are responsible for creat- tried in Special Courts and why they ing problems in Punjab. If you really are not tried in oj>en courts? And, want to find a solution to this problem when we put our demands we are you will have to approach them and charged with treason! If this is the win their confidence. I would like to definition of treason, then I would say know the action that you arc going to that those who have laid down such a take in this regard? definition arc the biggest traitor. The House must address itself to the solu* We have seen what took place in tion of Punjab problem. that state during the last six months. Now I would like to know your line The situation cannot improve if of action for the coming six months. we continue to present our views bas- In this regard, it is necessary to take ed on politically motivated facts. If the House in to confidence. I would you are sincere in finding a solution, request the nation not to look towards then the Prime Minister should make the sikh community with a susfrfcious an announcemmt that all those who eye. As I had r^erred to in my first have been languishing in jails, with- speech also, those people who had out trial will be released. Cases have signed the resdutkm rraarding parallel been Festered against more that 250 constitution in the Pakutan Assembly Sikh women. I urge upon lady Mem- were made Chief Justice, ete. and bers of Parliament to come forward among ^tose signatories, seventeen and help them. What is the fault of were Hindus agreed to the crea- those who have not been tried so far? tion of P ^ ta n . Among the sigtntories # Stat. Res. re. apftvvd ASVINA. 13, i9l2 (SAKA) in f(ttce o/Broa. in SO o f conlintumce respect there was not a single Sikh. the R^lution moved by the Iwa. This reveals yoar patriotism towards Minister for extending die the nation. If this is the definition of sidents rule in Punjab. J want to patriotism, we refuse to acci^ it. If ^ v ey through you, to the National the fight in Punjab is on this very iront Government that this kind of point, then we cannot ^o along with rontinuance of the President’s rule in you. You must make it clear as to Punjab IS not the solution for the what is your opinon about us, about Punjab problem. We can solve the Punjab and about the Sikh community. problems of the Punjab only by res- toring democracy In that State. While I would like to conclude here with speakmg one of our Members, who the request that if you really wish to IS from Punjab, gave the assurance win the confidence of the people of «hat he IS for the unity of the coun- Punjab, then you must dc'tcend to the fry. He said that at any cost his grass-root level and tell the people of Party would not divide the country. the State what you have decided to Sir. we are very clad to hear him offer to them. saying that he is going to fight for the unity of the country. Everybody knows [Englhh] that li we do not have a strong na- tion, we cannot survive and we will MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: We not be able to solve our problems. had discussed the amendment to the Constitution which was very relevant to the present issue. In the Speaker’s In his speech he mentioned about chamber, it was agreed among the lea- me problems which the people living ders of the different parties that we in Punjab are facing. Through you, would complete the discussion and I would like to convey to the Natio- voting on this Resolution by 3 O’clock. nal Front Government that only by It was also agreed that Members of restoring the federal set up in the all the parties may not speak except country they can solve the problems Iwo or three. Now, I hope I can call of the States, because our country is upon the hon. Prime Minister to having dilTerent culture and different speak languages. DR. IHAMBI DURAI (Karur): Yesterday in his speech the Prime It was also dccided that a chdnce would lvlini.ster said that he believes in the be given to our party as also some decentralisation of powci. I don’t Members from the Congress^). That know what i»tcps he has so far taken was accepted. We will take one or to decentralise th^ power which is ac- two minutes each. We want to listen cumulated in the Centre. The same to the hon. Prime Minister’s interven- Janta Government in 1977 brought tion. We are very particular about education from State List to Concur- that. rent List. I would like to know from the Prime Minister whether he would MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: All bring any legislation so as to restore right. I would allow two or three the education in the State List, fn Members from the Congress 0). That the name of the federal set up and would request them, as they have been' also in the name of unity Aey have very ably conveying all their views in taken most of die powers from ths very short time, they will do the same States to the Centre. Becausc of t ^ thing now also and complete within kind of attitude we have so many two or three minutes. I would then disturbances in the States. The db- request the hon. Prime Minister to turbance is there not only in F^njab reply to the debate. but in Kashmir also. Vesterday, the Prime Ministor announced that he is Now, Dr, Thambi Durai, going to decentralise power. I am also DR. THAMBI DURAI: Mr. DtpaQr very happy to know that he anno- Speaker, Sir. to d ^ we are disQusshig unced some package of sdwnes to 51 Stat. Res. re, apprvvd OCTOBER 5, I!^90 in force pfProc. in 5i o f continuance respect o f Punjab [Dr. Thambi Durai] tions; they do not want elections under any circumstances like the solve the economic problems of Pun- BJP. And they say that because jab. I appreciate thi^s announcement the BJP and the Left allied are but this is not enough. Yesterday also taking a stand like that, there- 1 asked as to when he is going to fore, the President has no option bring the Right to Work Bill. Today, but to go in for another spell being the last day of the Session, we of President’s Rule.”’ are anxiously waiting for this anno- uncement. So. 1 once again request him to try to keep his words and try This is not our stand. This is to put to dccentralise power and also try to the record straight about our stand. bring the Right to Work Bill us soon as possible. My appeal is, let this House pass a Resolution irrespective of political SHRlMATi GEEIA MUKHER- parties today itself -not to really put JEE (Panskura); Sir, 1 shall take as our country in difficulty and not to little time as possible. I have risen destroy it. Let us all appeal to the only to put the records wStraighl and people that communal harmony whe- to make a very brief appeal. Through ther in Punjab or elsewhere must be you. Sir, I appeal to Smt. Binial protected. For that I also appeal to Kaur Khalsa to put the interpreta- BJP to maintain communal harmony. tion on. After all, they do not have any more say on Gandhian socialism. But Gan- SHRIMATI BIMAL KAUR dhiji himself had to withdraw Chauri KHALSA: I can understand English. Chaura movement for which we bla- med him. SHRIMATI GEETA MUKHER- JEE: Thank you. Dear sister yester- Therefore, 1 think it is in the spirit day accused the two Communist Par- of our nation today, to make an ap- ties and she said that the CPI and peal like this to the Prime Minister CPl(M) arc the parties vho are op- to pass a Resolution to that effect, posing the elections in Punjab. So, to put the records straight I would just [ / ranslation] read out what Shri liuirajit Gupta yesterday said on this score and I SHRI ARH BAIG (Betul): Mr. quote: f)cuty Speaker. Sir, on behalf of the Bhartiya Janta Party, I would like '‘My parly will, of coursc, \ole lo make it clear before all the hon. for this amendment, i.e, ror the Members of this House that our party letter of this amendment. But wc has als\ays been in favour of the are not in favour of its spirit, if elections. Wc are not against elec- I could vote in spirit, I vote aga- tions in Punjab provided it is a free inst it. Why? Because, v^e arc and fair election in which one may convinccd t"hat these repeated cast one\ vote fearlessly. But in doses of President's Rule has be- the present circumstances, is a fair come a chronic feature now in and free election possible in Punjab? Punjab; it is not Roing to help Is there any one who in view of the improve the situation if wc go present conditions in Punjab feels on in the old way.’* honestly that an election in the real Then he very clearly spoke abi>ut sense of the term may be conducted our stand and 1 quote oi\ce again: there? 1 would like to say to the Congressmen who repeatedly blame “These gentlemen of the Press us as having an anti-election view, should not be given an impres- that they should see it first that no sion, as they go on giving, that elections have been held for the last the left parties particularly the 18 years within their own party. two Communist Parties are ab- Hence a party which has not been solutely dead set against elec- aUe to maintoiu the spirit of 53 Stat. Res. n . approval ASVmA 13,1912 to/orcgam w .M 54 of cmtinuanc^ reaped 0fru lw o democracy within its own organisa- you said on tbe floor of the House tional set up, has no right to advo- is clear, but not the >ett^ we have cate the cause of democracy, On the got from the Prime Minbter of the other hand, our party is the only country. This Prime Minister is a Indian political party which has held paying; guest Prime Minister. He w its organisational elections regularly, at the mercy of the BJP and the Left parties, (interruptions) One of parties So, we have been and arc in fav- hfs already given notice, ^Oth our ofaf elections.elections October. The other is also thmkmg vately in the lobby, the assessment [Engtish] that wc get about this Government is SHRI SONTOSH MOHAN DEV different from what they speak (Tripura West): Mr. Deputy Speaker. *" ' On M 0 ^» - s COT»lniclfon, we »re here today Ki (In- Commklee comtitutsd under cuss the Resolution which has been pnrtiah Sitate l^ecislature (Oeleiia* brought by the hon. Home Minister a M and most reluctantly all political par- ‘‘on m ^bere ties, both in Lok W h a and Raiya T iSie MiniSt^ tes Sabha. have unanimously passed it Till a meeting wen. .he P«,lden,, t o c o l K . ' W » ”1 S S Minister, said you wanted to have all 1 would not like to repeat those fhe political parties together, to cre- points which have been said by vari- ate a situation in Punjab so th ^ frw ous other Members. Since the hon. fgjr elections could be held, it Prime Minister is goinc to intervene very good attitude. But what is in this debate, 1 would like to request action taken? You your>elf have the hon. Prime Minister to kindly tell farmed the Consultative CommittM us about the change in situation after ,hc help of the hon Speaker, in his Press Conference which he held januarv. Today we are in IJctober. on board the aircraft. He said: we Prom January to October, you have would like that when we ask for ex- jjgjj (jnie to demote Ministers, you tension bv six months, we could also time to resisn. io get other give a date for the election Of course. Ministers resign foi you; but you he keot his door open. He said; we j^^ve not had time to call a meeting, would like to dcclare. 1 would like ^ jhinl that either, you do not know to know from him: what arc the diffi- (|,^.re is a committee, or you culties that arose in between, that you j( in abeyance. T do not have not been able to declare an ..^poct you being the Primi Mmiswr. election date? If you are going to be the situation. During have elections within six months. 1 itii months, not on a single ciay would like to know whithjr your a meeting of this commu- letter to our President, about the views of CPI. CPI(M) and BJP are * i i correct, or what they are saying in iinfortunately or the House, and the explanation given sometime Minister of Stits lor Home, bv Mrs Geeta Mukherjee and the hon. i„ that capacity, I w«ot to ^ Members of the BJP are corrcct. U t jg,,. {interrupfiom) I w«nt to us know. (Menupiionx) thjg f,om the Home M ints^. ^.cstc«]ay. an industna.ist from Pun- SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERjnE: iab came and ^ ^ S ; v o . SHRI SONTOSH MOHAN SnS'«S5 ..ked mi No: your stand is not clc^. What Sir, some peopic 55 Stat, Hes. re. ap^oval OCTOBER 5,1990 inforceofproe. in S8 o f cont inuance respect of Punjab [Sh. Sontosh Moban Dev] should condemn these activities in Punjab. to ^ R, 20 lakhs, or otherwise to quit Punjab. I decided to close down Before I conclude. 1 would like to the business and walk out of Punjab. request the hon. Prime Minister, when My fnend said; Go to the police sta- he intervenes, to tell us what actually tion. talk to the Police. The Police does he want from the Opposition, are veiy active now. and thw will that is, the Congress-T. We want to t ^ e action. I went to the police sta- support him; we are supporting him. tion. As soon as I entered, I started He was part and parcel oi this Oppo- running away from it. I came to my sition when he was Minister. He house running back.’ T asked him knows our culture. He knows it why. He said; The man who came very well that in spite of evers^thing, and asked for money, he was sitting national interest is the main interest. in the police station, in the chair. He We are totally with you to support Is the O.C.. i.e. the in-charge of that you on Punjab or for that matter on poliw station. Maybe that is an ex- {Interruptions) any national issue. But for God’s ception. sake, don’t bring in personal animo- sity and personal things. You tell us [Translation] what sort of help do you want from SHRI KAPIL DEV SHASTRI us? (SOTepat): What were they doing in Punjab where they were in power Tn the past, we had attended some there for so many years? At that meetings along with other members. time, they always adopted an escapist Our experience is that whenever any- attitude on Punjab issue...(Interrifp- body spoke, he spoke against the lions) Congress-T. When we are sitting on the same platform, how do you cx- [Engli.th] pcct cooperation from us? To run government, you have to take deci- SHRI SONTOSH MOHAN DEV: sions. There might be correct deci- What 1 am trying to say is this- I sions. incorrect decisions. Now this agree this is not the position of the is not the time to do mudslingtng entire Police. 80% or 90";, of the against each other. This is the eighth Police in Punjab are good. time we are extending the President’s Rule in Punjab. Let us hope that But one or two persons are there this will be the last time. This hope who crcate such a situation; with the and the aspirations of the members result that they create fear in the will come true only if you and your minds of the members from Punjab. Home Minister rise above party poli- There is a lot of difference between tics. Extend your helping hand to what I have heard today and what T all the political parties in Punjab— had heard nine months before. This Congress-T. BJP. CPT. CPI(M) and is the achievement of this august also the Akali Dal and create a situa- House, this Parliamem. I am sure, tion for holding elections. When we S. Atinder Pal Singh, when he speaks could hold elections in the past, why today, he will speak in a different is it not possible to hold elections language after having listened to the a(;ain? I think we will be able to hold other members for six months in this elections provided all the political House. They have got certain pric- parties come together. vances; they have to be removed. But. unfortunately, no one from Punjab, I hooe. when you reply, at least when he speaks, cooderons terrorists you will not reply in the way in which and their activities in Puniab. They YOU renlled in Lucknow, castiffatlng are in connivance with Pakistan. No- this fellow and that fellow. Kiiidty body condemns terrorist activities in rise above partv politics and give one Punjab. I expect that, some one from speech in this PatBament as fl»e Prime Punjab when he q[>eaks, at least Minister of this pcwmtiy. 57 Siat. Res. re. appm ai ASVINA13; m iiS A K A ) in force o / m ( . *r » of cmtbmnce respect PUi^etb' [Trtmslatiorii the reasons of disturbed c SHRI KIRPAL SINGH (Amrit- rency in thwr houses. It is not a sar): Mr. I>^ty Speaker. Sir, my new thing because even in the houses Mends have requested me to recite of some of our earlier Prime Mini- an XJtdu couplet. sttfs. they used to ke^ fordgn cur- rraicy. In case now this House gives Following is the Couplet:— its clearance to this B ill it will give them another six months’ time. So. “Lootate Agar Khizon Mein to in this House at present the Prime Kuchh Baat hi Na Thee Minister will have to state as to how Hamko Yeh Ranj Hal Ki, Loote long Puniab wiU remain in the hands Hain Bahar Mein.” of those hungry w o lv e s.is respon- sible for the incidents of violence and We faced a number o( atrocities dur* blood-shed in that State. ing the reghne of these ^ e a t persons but nobody expressed his grief and [English] sympathy for the innumberable num- MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Names ber of women who had lost their hus- will not go on re«M:d. bands. [Translatkml MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: You have already said that. SHRI KIRPAL SINGH: For how long the public of Punjab will be SHRI KIRPAL SINGH; An hon. left to the whims of those persons and Member. Shri Rangaji has pointed when will an elected Government out as to how a dialogue may be ini- hold reins of power in Punjab? Is this tiated with such persons who have House ready to approach the terro- approached the U.N.O.? But, have rists to persuade them to give up their the Government ever thought of the terrorist approach to create a condu- reasons of their approaching that cive atmosphere for elections there? If forum? Before blaming them the Gov- such a step is not taken, atleast we ernment should seriously consider should be meted out justice, otherwise, these issues as to why one does not we stand ruined in all respects. get justice here and one is not round- ed up even after committing a number About half of the crop has been of murders? Yesterday, I brought it destroyed during this rainy season and to the notice of the Hon’ble Prime the procurement agencies are not com- Minister that at least two hundred ing forward to purchase the produce. persons of five villages in Puniab This has result^ into a heai^ loss. were brutally beaten up by the Police Paddy crop was spoiled and now it in their search for some terrorists is sprouting again. The paddy bags whereas none of those innocent per- stocked in markets have bMn washed sons was found to be a terrorist. Many away and F.C.I. or other agoicies are persons residing in towns come to us not helping the pec^le involved in rice and complain weepinglv that the dealing. There is rampant corruption Police had arrested their children but in F.C.I. A bribe ot rupees four did not let them know the where- thousand per truck load of grains is abouts of those children or whether given to F.C.I. Every type of discri- they had been released or killed. mination is being done in Punjab in When they mete out such a crude the matters of sales tax and income behaviour to them, why do thev ex- tax. The exporters are not getting pect that they will remain faithful proper facilities. No Govenior or to them? Moreover, they want the bureaucracy can solve these problems. vSikhs to remain loyal whereas fliey They have looted us and we do not themselves give Drotection to the cul- know how long they will be looting nrits. Tn fact, in their Secretariat there us. Punjab was in the forefiront m have been many such officers who free(k>m strug^ «od has givi» v«y traded ofiicial secrets for foreign foods and used to keep foreign cur* ♦Not ' 61 Sutt. B0S. rt.-t^provd ASVINA13,1912 {SAKA) ktfwrca ^jProc. to 62 coniimumce resptot ofFmg'M (good soldii^, technicians, fanners have suj^KMled the bolding of elflc> etc, to the natiOQ. which is a reco« DR. BIPLAB DASGUPTA: They May, 1987 and the President’s rule are not fighting the terrcffists. The im- has been imposed there against the portant point is to isolate the terro- will of the people of Punjab. We. the rists. The); should be defeated politi- people of Punjab do not want the Pre« cally. It is true that today they do sident's rule mere but today...... control a section of the police and bureaucracy. It is also’true that they have the coercive power. It is very [English] important for itll of us including the Congress to ensure that the' terrorists SHRI NIRMAL KANTI CHAT- are isolated and the national unity TERJEE (Dumdum); They are afraid is upheld. to the statement that the same set of people who were involved in 19M were also involved in the 2nd Octo- Lastly, in response to the point ber incident. Does it imply that they made by Shri P. Chidambaram that were involved in 1984 incident, but the Prime Mmister is taking a self- not in this case? righteoas view of the things,...... (Interruptions) SHRI BASUDEB ACHARIA (Bankura); The people who organised MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: You (he Sadbhavana Yatra came and creat- don’t have to respond to him. ed disturbances in Boat Club. Hmerntpiiom) SHRI H. K. L. BllACAT (East Delhi); Nobody is blaming us for any DR. BIPLAB DASGUPTA; May incident of October 2. Hon. Member I say that Shri Chidambaram himself is the first man to mention it. As a is guilty of a holier than thou alti- matter of fact, the Sadbhavana Yatra tude. Can he deny that it was the which the Congress had in Delhi Congress Party which brought Shri was welcomed by lakhs of people in Bhinderwala to politics in order to the whole historic city of Delhi which disrupt the Akali Dal? Can he deny has a mixed population, welcomed by that it was his party, whose Govern- all castes and creeds. I hope the hon. ment had attacked the Sikh Temple? Member is not irked by response that Can he deny that it was his party’s Shri Rajiv Gandhi and the Congress Government which dismissed the Bar- Sadbhavana Yatra received from the nala Government and created the people of Delhi. As far as his obser- current situation? The present state vations on 1984 riots are concerned. of affairs in Punjab is a le- I win refer tt> the subject a little later. gacy of the misdeeds of the Con- gress Rule with rcspcct to Punjab. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER; Please I hope that within next six months take your seat. conditions conducive to elections would be created with the cooperation of all the parties including the Con- I have lost my voice. I hope you gress Party and the democratic senti- will help me. I am not able to match ments of the people of that State you in talking. Now. do not allow would be reflected through elections this atmosphere to be disturbed. Un- ...... (Interruptiom) temtptions) [Tramlatior^ [Translation] SHRI HARBHAJAN LAKHA MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: You (Phillaur); Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. please sit down. tBhajan L-al Ji. you F^jab has been denied democrati- also take your seat, i will call you cally elected Oovernmoit since 11th later on. 65 S m . Res. re. approval ASVH^A 13,1912 in force «if Pi»c, in 46 of amtimmce respect ofPmJab SHRI HARBHAJAN LAKHA: thing else. Therefore. I wooW tike I feel sorry for the situation prevail* to request the Home Minister that he ing in Punjab and today the whole shcmld assure us that a meetii^ peak on Punjab. syslcni. SHRI HARBHAJAN LAKHA: MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Mr. We. therefore, want thai the people Lakha, please conclude. of Punjab must be given their cons- titutional rights...... (Intcrrnptiooi) SHRI HARBHAJAN LAKHA: Today the communal forces in Punjab 1 would like to request the Prime are raising their heads ...{Interrup Minister to hold elections in Punjab tions} within six months so that the people of Punjab could get some relief and [Engiisi}] the Punjab like situation does not develop in whole of the country. MR. DEPbTY SPEAKER; Mr. Lakha, please take your scat. Please [Engihii] be relevant while speaking on these things and do not widen the scope of MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes. your speech. Bhajan l.al Ji. it should be on Punjab. (Interrupt ioui) [Trmdution] MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER; Mr. SHRI BHAJAN LAL (f'aridabad): Lakha. please take your seat. Please Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would be relevant. Please speak on the like to draw the attention of the House subject and do not widen the scope of 10 a very serious and important mat- your speech. ter. Sir, murderous aiisaults have (Interruptiom) been made twice on Shri Banarasi Das Gupta had been twice the Chirf Minister of Haryana. He was shot ITrmsiation] at... (Interruptions) SHRI HARBHAJAN LAKHA: The Han>c Minister had announc^ \ English] that there will be a welfare committee and all the MP’s from Punjab will MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: ft is be ils members, but I would like to not on Punjab. mform you that not a single meeting of the ten Committees on the welfare [TrmsUuion] of Scheduled Caste, of v»*fch I am also Mwniwr from Punjab, has been ^ R 1 BHAJAN LAL: He is tfae Oiatrtnaii of All India Agnwal h ;^ during the last ten months. Mal»sabha. He has been the TJiey say somethiog and do some* Minister [Sh. Bhaian Lai] certaio economic programmes, which „ . _ . will save the people there from the freedom fighter. The wtire country sufferings. Along with that we have icnows, the people of Haryana know jjg prepafgj foj the imminent dan- ...... {Interruptions) gerj, across our bwders and we , have to strengthen our position. They [Engitsn] vvhile doing all these thinp MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: No. they have to thinlc of the elecaons. it k not on Puniftb This IS their real position and nobody It IS not on Punjab. frcqucntly^oubt their inten- [Translation] regard. It is not that they have cancelled the elections. SHRI BHAJAN LAL: There is Clearly speaking whatever is the cor- deep conspiracy behind this attack, rect position it should be before us, I would like to request the Prime so 1 want to make this position clear Minister that the matter should be in the very beginning as to how it was inquired into by the CBI so that peo- dccidcd and why elections could not pie could know the culprits behmcl be held, becausc some of our honour- this convSpiracy. {Interruptions) able Members from Punjab have as- t 1 V ked US in this regard. They should CH. RAM PRAKASH (Ambala): jjtnow the real situation. We do not People from Punjab are coming here to keep anything secret just to after being uprooted. {Jntermptions) .safeguard this Government or for any Secondly, you should not encourage other purpose. We believe that at these people sitting here. These times it so happens that we feel the people have ruined our, country, this jjjto our own conscience, is my submission. {Interruptions} When the problem of Punjab or any THE PRIME MINISTER (SHRI national problem is confronted by us VISHWANATH PRATAP SINGH): while saying some- Mr. Deputy Speaker. Sir. first of all, I must have a national out- want to thank the hon. Members and look I feel not only government but all the parties who have extended we should also feel our own con- their support for this constitution science and there is need to thinlc on am endm eiT Some of the mcm.bers national level. Honourable Meml»rs were against it also and I would hkc ^aye nghtly said here as Shri Atinder to say that we are also not very plea- u” , sed to bring forward this proclamation Kirpal Singh also said that there was before the House. Before procced- from the present gover^ent, ing further, 1 would like to make it we dehmtely say clear that—becausc the question has that there is surely some decay m Ac been raised again and awin—our sup- ^ porting parties, the Bhartiya Janata ®. heavy heart. We be- Party and the Leftist l^rties are not ^ much better to speak against holding elections in Punjab, regarding these matters m They are in favour of elections. They House. It was a chance that a have not suggested continuance of ^ sten ce President's rule in Punjab. There is ««« , At that time Akali Dal and nothing like that. They have, of other friendly parties extended a good course, said that in the present sllua- to ui. In every held there tion we might be able to manage fair was a gw d coopetaUon and there was and free election ballot prt)Cess. but hesitation even to the extent of atmosphere in Punjab is not conducive sharing the same platform. Shn for casting votes freely. So elections Mann also openly could not be held for siMne time, but support^ the National H rat Govem- during this period Government is not we had one plat- sitting idle. We want to take some ‘orm. Though he never came bim- poiitkal initiative and want to present sell but his colleagues used to 69 Stat. Res. re. approval A SV IH M S, i9 t2 (SAKA) ^ df cmtimmce respect Of Pw m and WB also attended the meeting*, this and we have talk to iwwy In a way, the sikh brethren had a wifli tegard to this. Tt is IMt political faith in their hearts. In we have n^lected this. ^1 »e addition to the speeches delivered same, it will be sheec in j u s ^ to there, wc moved down on the road associate all sikh bretton wiia tnis. and we also got opportunity to mix We have made this thing cleat maiiy with them. We curved their sen- a time that if we make any tops® Hi timents, we met them and when the It, it will be an injustice. T h e r^ w people of Punjab opened their hearts I regret to say this. Since Presi- bcfore us and expressed their senti- dent’s Rule has b«n extended foar ments affectionately, there was no six months period in' Punjab many a uestion of hesitation. There and time, there is some kind of doubt Slen I said that the trust of these peo- in the minds of the peofde of Punjab, pie is my security. It was said only Whether it is previous government or on the basis of coming closer to them the present one, is this the same six and rubbing shoulders with them, months period? "^e previous But all the same I agree that we got government extended it nearly five the first jolt when the elections were times and the present government i.e.. postponed. It is a fact that there we are extending it for the second was a judgement that the circumstan- time. This way it is difficult to create ces are not proper yet, but come what a faith there whether these are the may. I want to admit this fact. I same ix months or som; other. To- would consider it as the greatest mis- day there is need to create take of my life that I could not con- confidence among the i>eop!e with duct elections there in the first six regard to this, months. I admit my mistake be- cause it was a chance which would i- pave a way for elections, further. To , V™ ^ err is human, but I would con.'‘ider ,* it as my blunder that in the first six something practica . We can t go a months of coming to power this way only by decMraticn of inten- government could not hold elec- i* *’ anythmg tions. I present myself before the House for any punishment for this attempt. We have done so many blunder. These words do not come ‘h>ngs. but n ISh. Vishwanath Pratap Sngh] in this direction. We took various nittes fought together without any .steps which were in the agenda that At the time of war, both the commu- time to win the confidence of the discrimination. In order to make people. There was 59th constitu- the country stlf-suflBcient, whether in tional Amendment that in Punjab, the field of agriculture or industry the the right of life can be snatched hard working people of Punjab were away in case of Emergency. This in the forefront. Their contribution was a big blow to the people there. is very big and this is our greatest Wc removed that immediately after hope. assuming the office. I think all the army deserters excepting a few have 1 want to put forth all the different been released. Although there is not arguments which came across during total success yet our attempt is that the course of a discussion on settle- these people should also get some ment in this regard. First, the cir- source of livelihood. This was not ctunstances are not such as may publicised but many people were in favour the announcement of elections. prison against whom there was no If elections are announced there will suflfcient proof. The process was be terror, and exodus of Hindu bre- started when Mr. Mukherjee was thren and there will be reaction in Governor and these people have been the entire country. Then the people released. There are many more will participate in the election on gun 'eases also, and it is our duty to look point and there may be a proposal to after th'jt. I don't want to make any secede from the country, after- bargaining by counting ihese. We wards this problem will be interna- have to tiilk of justice, there can’t be tionalised. All this reflects a defi- any bargaining while doing justice. nite line of action being pursued A'bout compensation we talked in which makes us apprehensive. On Delhi as well as there. This too has the other hand it no more remains been increased and we feel there is the rule of the centre, or governor’s no need to increase it further. Our rule if the President’s rule already in opinion regarding this is that we have force for long is frequently extended to face the people across the borders and in fact it becomes the rule of strongly and there is no (jUestion of Police. Police rule is followed by compromi.se. But we shall have to alienation. After another six months definitely feel the sufferings of the our condition becomes fiom bad to people, and if wc look at it. now-a- worse, as the people express. You days it is the two thirdly Sikhs and see the first six months, then second one third Hindus which are being six months' period in the previous killed. If we look at the figures of governments time and our govern- Punjab many crimes are also includ- ment. So, that path is totally a ed. The number of normal crimes blind path and such a situation will has gone down. arise where there would be no control over the situation, people will be It appears that several cases of out of control. They say why should smuggling and dacoities are ai.so they suffer from both sides, why not being clubbed with the main problem. only on one front. If they think We had long discussions with our that way there won’t be any solution allies and we have arrived at cortain which can lead to any solution. All decisions. 1 am grateful to the Bha- of us are clear in this that frequent ratiya Janata Party and the Left extension of President’s rule is no parties for their valuable advice in solution. Final solution is that the the matter. Wc have also taken some people are to be taken into confidence decisions in our own party and F and unless the responsibility of Pun- would like to apprise the House of jab is not shifted on to them in a these decisions. There was a p rc ^ - democratic way there won’t be any sal to constitute a State Adviso^' solution to this proiblem. This is Council. Before discussing the detaik our fim belief and we are going ahead of this Council, I would like to pat 73 Stat. Res. re. t ^ 0val ASVIKA 13* 1912 (SAKA) in force o f f roe. in 74 ofconHmmce respect o f jhmfob up A prqxjsal brfore the House. It Atteroatively, a body coaid also be may not be possible to toke up the destituted in which reprciientativcs of proposal for consideration in the the recognised parties in the State House today, but it is very necessary could te taken as its members. What* to take it into consideration. The ever might be the composition of the point is that, under the provisions of body, it should be connected \vilii constitution we can have President’s the people and also with the Presi* Rule. Under this system, there is no dent’s rule which could provide a link other method through ’ivhich people between the people and the adminis- could be involved in the running of tration from time to time. I put it affairs of the State. Secondly, the situa- as a proposal before the House whe- tion is such that no elections can be ther such a proposition is possible.But held there now. A solution to the under the prevailing circumstances it problem has to be found cut in bet- would be in the fitness of things if an ween these two situations. No Advisory Council comprising of the wayout has been given in the hon. M.Ps from Punjab representing Constitution also for this. Of the recognised parties in die State course, there is an Advisory Body, could be constituted. but the point is as to who will have a say in this Body I am not going to cite any isolated case. SHRT MADAN LAL KHU- RANA; Please do the same for It is not the case of Punjab alone. Delhi also. Such a situation may also emerge in other States. In such cases we will have no reservation to allow the SHRl VISHWANATH PRATAP Constitution of Advisory Bodies. Bui SINGH: One gels encouiaged when it will be farcical if we take a a proposal mooted receives immediate decision that no ex-Chief Minister consent. Had it been so earlier, a body should be taken in such Advisory could have been constituted uptil now Bodies. Let us think, if such a pro- without delay. The body would be vision could be made in the Consti- empowered to form commitlces com- tution. Not only the question of Advi- prising of farmers, traders and ex- sory Body, but let there be an Advi- servicemen. These committees could sory Council which could establish a be constituted at the district levels link with the people in between the and lower levels. T hope, my propo- President’s Rule and holding of elec- sal is acceptable to ail. tions so that bureaucracy could be alienated from the people and dege- SHRT M. J. AKBAR: Please do nerated. it at the earliest. . SHRI VISHWANATH PRATAP T admit that the administration has SINGH: At the .same time I would to function there under a very diffi- like to state that in order to maintain cult situation. The officials perform the credibility of the Government it their duties at the risk of their lives. becomes our duty to enquire into any But the people have their own prob- complaint or incidents of any ex- lems. some wayout has to be thou- cesses against the administration. ght of as to how we can bring them Today, whoever is there in the Gov- into the mainstream. There is no ernment, has to work at the risk of imnediate solution to this problem his life. I would never like to under- in the Constitution. Constitutional estimate th'*ir contribution. If any experts and scholars will have to be excesses are committed or any injus- consulted in the matter. A body tice is done to people, iustice has to comprising of the Members of Par- be done so that credibility of iStc liament mth more authority could Government is restored and people’s alscf be constituted. Otherwise, a b(^y morale remains high. Tlwre sh ^ ld could also be constituted compristng also be no room for onesided dmio- cf die elected representatives who have niHsation. If pecqik get denaoraUsed been elected in the last etectiona. then there will not be any wayoat fi-2LSS/ND/91 75 Siat. ties. n . c^pwteS OCTCfflER 5,1990 bt force Broc. [Sh. Vishwana^ Ftatap Sia^] been decided to recruit 10.000 youth in Ae Army. Para^m^iy F The has^ptsaags of 1984 wece teaUy [SngUsh] ssftd. Regarding 1984 rjk>tB, special courts have beep set up to deal with SHm KADAMBUR M.R. the people responsible for incit- NARDHANAN (TiniiielvelO: The ing these riots. But the nutter is cotton growers of Punjab have «&• ported the largest numMr of subjttdice, hen<» it would not be bates biat year, that is, about five lakh bales p n ^r for me to say something in this regard but justice must be done in the history of India. Hie CCI has made huge profit out d it. The for- and the culprits must be puaished mer Agriculture Minister had pro- under the law. We are fully com- mised diat the share of profit mitted to this. would be given to the Punjab grow- ers. Have you done that? Have you One thing is always said that this got any programme of giving the problem should be solved. The share of profit, which the Cotim problem of Punjab can be solved Corporation of India has made, to only by tackling the probl^s of the the cotton growers of Punjab? youth of Punjab and by taking them into confidence. This is the internal problem of our country and it can SHRl VISHWANATH PRATAP SINGH: Anyway, these are matters not be solved without taking the of detaO. Whatever can be done for youth of this country into confidence and we shall try our best to win the farmers, we shall certainly do. their confidence. 1 have made a note of it. TranskttUm] A& regards the question of right ( lo work. I would assure the house In the end, the honourable mem- that we are fully committed to this. bers of Congress Party have demand- We will bring a legislation and mobi- ed to declare it a national problem. lise all our resources. The question This is not the problem of any par^ of right to work would be discussed or of any Government and Congress in a meeting of the National Deve- Party is ready to help in it, we wel- lopment Council goiiw to be held on come that. We will work together 10-11 October, IW . The meeting will on thisi matter. We must try to unite be attended by all the Chief Ministers all the people in this. We shall not and other prominent persons. We allow any groupism on this problem. will raise this question in National As far as as the question of unity Youth Councils and chalk out a pro- and integrity is concerned. I have gramme to implement it within the full faith in the people of Punjab. existing resources. We are committ- They are patriotic people. ed to this and will fulfil it. But then do not say that why you have done As remrds election in Punjab, f it suddenly. have clarified the attitude of our sup- porting parties. We fed that Presi- {English] dent’s rule is not a solution, instead it will further complicate the situa- DR. THAMBI DUBIAI (Karur). tion. We have to proceed towards When you are twinging this Bill? holding election. In the meantime, Are you going to bring It in thfl win- we will have to utilise each available ter session? day. We should establish contacts Otuermpikm) with the people and create confidence among thm. We should not create [Translatkm] any floodcaJice 9T the youths of jab want to Join the maiastretm. You r SHRJ VISHWANATH PRATAP can see the ^ (tf Atinder PM Sbi^- SINCKH: Od not blame us that it ji during Oe period ot last Govern* has been bro«#t sudl^iih. (Inters n m t and If yoo see my stgnaAmes on h now, then you will send me to 79 Stat.Res.re.a^nval OCTOBER 5,1990 in force o f f roc. in 80 o f contbuumee respect o f fmifab [Sh. Vishwanath ftatap Singh] can take up the case. Because to . ^ ^ 1 , . M maintain inter-State relations it was jail. But today we are hearing the gjate Government same ^rso n who was once used to ^ ^ o„,y he called dreaded terrorist and ex- Centre can take action. If they will changmg views with him. {Interrup- request, we wiU get it enquired by the CBI. (Interruptiom) S. ATINDER PAL SINGH: Mr. SHRI BHAJAN LAL: Please get Prime Minister, I want to make it it enquired by the CBI. The Meham dear that Atindcr Pal Singh was the case is also pending for the last three only accused in this country who months, it should also be enquired duly filed a writ petition in the court soon, ihilerruptions) and the case initiated by the Con- gress Government to prosccutc Atin- der Pal Singh should not be with- SHRI VISHWANATH PRATAP drawn but he should be prosecuted. SINGH: Judge has been appointed Though Congress Government filed for that and we will pass on your cases against me, even then it could request to the State Government. not run. Police cannot stigmatise ilnterniptions) Atindcr Pal Singh as a terrorist, you will have to prove it. What do you CH. RAM PRAKASH; Mr. Prime say about SP, Patiala who says that Minister. I had made a request to a fake encounter would be concoctcd. you about 20-30 thousand families, What do you say about him who has who have migrated from Punjab due seized my car? Please clarify it also. to fear of terrorists. What are you do- ing for them? They arc starving. SHRI VISHWANATH PRATAP {Interruptions) SINGH: One day Rajdev Singhji came and while introducing all members, he told that nobody among them I English] have remained in jail less than two- MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER; 1 three years. There was no need to shall now put the Statutory Resolu- see records of Punjab otherwise no- tion moved by Shri Mufti Moham- thin!! could have been done in this mad Sayced to the vote of the House. rii tter. Democracy has a certain process which is evident here. The The question is ; hon. Members who have come from Punjab have participated in demo- “ Ihat this House approves the cratic process there and u way can be continuance in force of the found out to settle these problems Prix:lamation dated the 11th but President’s rule is not the only May. 1987. in respect of Punjab, solution. We will have to hold elec- issued under article 356 of the tions. With these words 1 conclude Constitution by the President, my speech. (.Interruptiom) for a further period of six months with effect from the 11th Slovembcr, 1990.” SHRI BHAJAN LAL: You have not answered my question. {Int€r~ The motion wav adopted. rtiptions) SHRI VISHWANATH PRATAP SHRI P- CHIDAMBARAM; Sir, SINGH: We condemn the brutal m - attack on Shri B.D. Gupta and will we have to take up yestraday’s contact him and arran^ for his finished business. Yesterday the Fi- treatment. Regarding inquiry by nance Minister said that flie decision OTI the State Government will have on Mr. Kuldip Nayyar will be an- to take action first, only then we nounced today. We want to know 81 Att&tthn & care given ASVIHA IJ, 1912 (5iliW) m l m ^ i o L e t e 82 by M an High Chtef/usfice Commission Mukheirjee what is the dcciswn. The Ertemal ing this to the august body of th« AfTairs Minister is here. Let him an* Supreme Court this afternoon. I hav« nounce the decision today. Mr. Depu- also sought an interview with the ty S^^ker. please call upon the Ex- hon, Cljief Justicc this evening and ternal Affairs Minister. {Interrup 1 will convey this to him as well. 1 tions) may also say so. Sir, that in defe- rence to the respect for late Justice Mukharjec, the Prime Minister himself has spoken to Mrs. Mukharjee and offered her to allot a Government 16.30 hrs. house. Her other wishes are also RE. ATTENTION AND CARE GI- being ascertained which will be fully VEN BY THE INDIAN HIGH met. Thank you very much. Sir. COMMISSION IN LONDON TO {Interrupli SHRl JASWANT SINGH (Jodh- SHRl C.K. JAFEER SHARIEF pur): Mr. Deputy Speaker. Sir. the (Bangalore North): Mr. Deputy hon. Shri Chidambaram has spoken Speaker, Sir. 1 am extremely surp- with great feeling and with great ve- rised by what my friend, Mr. Jas- hemence. We had occasion to dis- want Singh, just now said. In other cuss it earlier with the hon. Speaker words, he has quietly put it while in his Chamber, unmindful of the saying that this august House com- sentiments that he has expressed. 1 prising of all the sections of the poli- am also mindful of the feelings and tical parties here, should exercise sentiments expressed by my friend restraint in expressing opinion. That and colleague hon. Justice Mr. Gu- means all those people who have spo- man Mai Lodha. 1 wish to make ken yesterday arc irresponsible, and only one submission. Parliament, as they will have to admit so because a collective organisation, is a body only today some wisdom has come. whose wishes are not flouted by any- I am very sorry. Mr. Jaswant Singh one. Merely because and precisely is my good friend. He is always a because its wishes are nol flouted by very matured person when he 'anyone, this body ought to be ex- expresses something. He should not tremely restrained in the exercise of try to undermine that yesterday peo- its powers. The hon. Minister of ple, who expressed their opinion, External Alfairs has quite rightly were very emotional. It is not emo- pointed out that a due inquiry as per tional. (Interruptions) It is not a the wishes of the Supreme Court Bar question of one individual, who is Association will be instituted into appointed by the Government, dis- this very unhappy incident. After alL charging his responsibility. After all, the death of Chief Justice of the Sup- Mr. Kuldip Nayyar is a good friend reme Court of India is no minor mat- of us. All of us have got personal ter. It is a matter of extreme con- regards for him. But the question is cern and we are all grieved by it. on a basic issue. Yesterday, in But if wc were, to, without even wait- fact, I took exception when some ing until the inquiry that has rightly Members were talking on other is- been instituted by the Minister of sues. After all, Parliament is an ins- External AlTairs as per the wishes of titution and Supreme Court the the Supreme Court, as a collective Judiciary--is another institution of b<.^dy, engage ourselves in passing sen- our country. tences, then, 1 think, wc would not be {Interruptions) fulfilling... I can only Somebody expi esses certain things, (interruptiom) exercise, I am sure, certain sentiments, something which other suggestions were made by my has happened. After all. what for friend, hon, Mr. Indrajit Gupta, or our missions are meant abroad? Our the hon. Member from Pratapgarh, missions are meant to take care of Mr. Dincsh Singh. The Minister our people. If the mission fails in of External Affairs has exercised its primary responsibility, that too in his option in such a manner the case of a leader of another de- that the dignity of the post of mocratic institution of this country, the High Commissioner of India it is a sacred duty of this Govern- after all is not of a single individual ment any Government for that mat- that wc are talking of. We are talk- ter, whether this Government or ing shout the status of an office. And that Government. Is it only to pro- I am sure that he will let the House tect somebi>dy just because we have restrain itself from passing a sen- appointed somebody? Then, what tence or asking the Government do message are we conveying to the this, that or the other. I am sure, entire judicial system? Are we not the Government will give due judg- here to take care of them? Whether ment, due punishment. {Interrup the judicial system can believe that tiom) this Parliament will stand up to the 85 Attention A care given kSV W K \ 9 i 2 iSAKA) in to Late 86 by Indian High Commission Mukherjee occasion when it comes to the ques- titution of Parliament by saying that tion of something going wrong with he had a talk with Mr. Venugopal them? Would they also believe us? and that Mr. Venugopal has agreed I do not think that my friend Mr. as if Mr. Venugopal is much mow Gujral would take it lightiy. It is important than the Members of this not anything apinst an individual. House .. (Intemtpiions)... 1 take a It is an issue. One should go on very serious objection to this ... the basis of an issue and its merits. terruptions)... The hon. Member from I do not think that heavens will fall. that side had only put the ResolutiOT Yesterday, Mr. Indrajit Gupta gave of the Supreme Court on the Table a very good suggestion. He did not of the House. Therefore Sir, 1 would say that he should be called back. like to say that asking a person to He should bimply go on leave. He proceed on leave is not a sentence, should go on leave. Nothing will 1 have got great respect for my se- happen. And when he has admitted nior friend, Mr. Jaswant Singh. 1 for an inquiry, it is all the more ne- may tell that, in the Supreme Court, cessary that he should go on leave. one of the judges is under an inquiry We demand that he should go on and this very Chief Justice who is leave. I do not know why he should now no more before us on account make it as a prestige issue. I beg of the negligence in his treatment, had to differ with my hon. friend, Mr. asked him to go on leave. That hon. l.K. Gujral. I must accept that the judge of the Supreme Court is on political parties have always tried to leave till the matter is decided. The accept one another. They are to- judge of the Bombay High Court was gether although they claim to be se- asked to proceed on leave. They parate. That is a different issue. But are not entrusted with any work till as a Member of Parliament, I say the inquiry is decided. It is an ele- that this House has a duty to respect mentary principle of jurisprudence the sentiments and remove that doubt that when a person is facing an in- fiom another institution of this great quiry, it is in his interest that he should country. stay away from that. And we ex- pected that the hon. Minister will manage in such a manner that Mr. Kuldip Nayyar will himself ask for SHRI GUMAN MAL LODHA leave so that face is also saved. He (Pali): Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, af- is asked to stay away from his place ter the statement of the hon. Muiister, of duty by asking him to go on leave. much is not left to be discussed be- But wc are sorry to say that it is a cause he has very fairly considered matter where not only the prestige of the demand foi* an inquiry. We want an institution like the High Commis- an inquiry by a Parliamentary Com- sion is involved but the entire judi- mittee. But nevertheless, if an in- ciary, the prestige of the Supreme quiry is done by a judge of the Sup- Court is involv^. The prestige of reme Court, we have no objection the Chief Justice is much more pre- absolutely. But the aggrieved person cious than that of the H i^ Commis- may say that here was a case where sioner. Sir, the Members of the Lok the aggrieved perscm was a judge of Sabha who spoke yesterday had un- the Supreme Court and the inquiry animously sakJ that the minimum judge was also of the Supreme Court. which can be done is to a.sk him to So. the best prmciple of natural jus- proceed on leave and then proceed tice demands that the inquiry com- with the inquiry. While welcoming mittee must not be biased in favour the statement of the hon. Minister of a particular institution. And for giving financial aid for retaining therefore, we .suggested for a Parlia- mentary C<»nmittee. But the man- the hou.se and for setting up an in- ner in which the hon. Minister ln« quiry immediately, 1 would request spoken has undermined this great ins- him not to take it as a matter of pres- 87 A ttention & care given OCTOBER 5, 1990 in London to Late 88 by Indian High Chief Justicel Commission Mukherjee [Sh. Gliman Mai Lodha] I think, this is in conformity with the (igc. Parliament is above all institu- principles of natural justice, when a tions. ii is supreme; it is more so- person is accused rightly or wrongly, vereign than the Constitution itself. whatever it may be, that we will see Therefore Sir, the very senior Minis- later on, during the pendency of an ter should abide by this unanimous enquiry into his omissions or com- view. And today, it is not required missions, he should not continue to to be discussed any more except this (Kcupy that office in which he was, part that he should proceed on leave, not because of anything personal an inquiry has to be conducted and against him. The whole idea is that then the responsibility should be an enquiry should not appear in any fixed. The responsibility may be any way to have been vitiated or restricted person. Sir, may I ask one ques- or any way adversely affected because tion? We are not asking here as to of that person remaining in that office. how we can pass a sentence on a per- Therefore, he should step down or son. May I ask as to why you step aside, or go on leave, or what- have sacked a doctor without any in- ever it is. This enquiry into this quiry? It is because you are convinc- matter is not a matter which will go ed that there was medical negligence for months and years. Ts it aii en- in the treatment of the honourable quiry which will require months and Chief Justice. That is why, a doctor years to complete? It deals with in London has been sackcd. Has those four-five days when the late that been so, the negligence is ad- Chief Justice was ill and was having mitted. It is oonfessed. Therefore, treatment there in hospital. There- 1 request the hon. Minister that the fore, I think, it is a matter where the esteemed stature of Parliament, its enquiry can be completed in a pace sovereignty is at stake. Much more of few days. During that period, de- than that, we know the position of finitely, the High Commissioner should the Chief Justice of India, the Sup- not be continued in the office in reme Court and the judiciary under which he was at that time. Whether Articles 143 and 144 of the Constitu- he has to voluntarily take leave... tion. Therefore, may 1 request that the hon. Minister may als() respcct SHRI SOMMATH CHATTER- the wishes of the House. JEE (Bolpur): Voluntarily better. SHRI INDRAJIT GUPTA: That SHRI INDRAJIT GUPTA (Midna- would be good, or the Government pore): Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, no- asks him to take leave. I do not know body in this House, in my opinion, whether the enquiry would be conduct- made any irresponsible statement yes- ed in India or London. It is a diffe- terday. Our statements were based rent matter and I cannot go into all entirely on whatever reports, allega- tions, testimony of Mrs Mukherjee and these things now. Tn any case, I think, a way can be found out. It is otlier people were available and every- not very difficult that the High Com- body was disturbed because of that. missioner should not continue to Nobody here has also disputed the fact occupy that post while the enquiry is that an enquiry is necessary. Obvious- Jy, this matter cannot be finallv decid- conducted. For that so many ways can be found out. I leave it to the ed without an enquiry. After all, the Hi'ih Commissioner has also to be ingenuity of the Foreign Minister also given an opportunity somewhere to and the good sense of the High Com- defend himself against these charges. missioner. He must be aware of what That can only be done during an en- is being discussed in the Parliament quiry. The enquiry has to be carried here. I think, he should voluntarily out at a sufficiently high level. offer to step down until the enquiry is completed. That would be the good When T made my proposal yesterday, grace on his part and it would be ap- the idea was, at least in my mind, and propriate to the occasion. 89 Attention & care given ASVINA 13, 1912 (SAKA) in London to Late 90 by Indian High Chief Justice Commission Mukherjee I agree with Shri Lodha that it is ed to proceed on leave. The Prime only today that we read that the panel Minister was there. The learned Fin- doctor has been remov^. All this ance Minister, Prof. Madhu Danda- time nobody said anything about it. vatc was there. I don’t know who is The doctor on the panel whom the learned and who is not because every- Chief Justice had specially asked to body claims that he is learned. come and see him. delayed a great deal, for several hours he did not THE MINISTER OF FINANCE come. That seems to have annoyed (PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE): or irritated him a bit. Now we arc I am not as learned as you are. told that the panel doctor has been removed from the panel. Why with- SHRI K. S. RAO: I do feel that out an enquiry? Obviously, there is you are learned and 1 have all respect prima facie evidence that he was ne- for you. I know how many times you gligent in his duty. Similarly, about have spoken about the democracy and the High Commissioner. Nobody about the value to be given to the wants to condemn him without any wishes expressed by the Members of kind of enquiry, but these are very Parliament. After our conversation serious charges and allegations that which all of our colleagues have had have come to light. I am sorry, yes- with Mrs. Mukherjee, we felt that a terday I referred to something which person occupying the highest position had been reported to me that the - to whom the country in look for High Commissioner had alleged to some justice or even if some inju-stice have said, spoken to somebody there. was to be done at the hands of execu- 1 do not insist on that because the tive or the politician - was subjected sources of that information arc not (o the arrogance or negligence of the hundred per cent reliable. The person High Commissioner or his subordi- 10 whom these remarks were made is nates. All the Members pre.sent in the not available here. This is second House expressed the same opinion hand and third hand information. and all of us unanimously conceded Therefore, I am not making a big to the suggestion made by Shri Indra- thing out of it. jit Gupta that he should be asked to go on leave. If this Government were not to respect the unanimous Anyway, the least that can be done view of the House then I don’t Icnow now is that it is all right if a high on whose wishes or decision it will ranking Judge of the Supreme Court act. 1 am sorry to say so, but every or somebody else holds the enquiry. I time the hon. Minister replied, he tried would be satisfied. But pending that to avoid taking action as per the enquiry, it is easy to find a way out wishes of the Members of Parliament. that the short time that would be in- So, I request the Governmwit to at volved, during that period, the High least now to convince the people of Commissioner should not continue in this country that the Government will that post. not hesitate to take action in this re- gard. If they do not want to call him back at least they should ask him to SHRI K. S. RAO (Machilipatnam): go on leave. So. I once again request Sir, yesterday when the discussion the Government to accept the su ^s- was going on this matter. I was tion made by Shri Tndrajit Gupta. extremely happy to see that no Mem- ber spoke with the politica! intention SHRI SOMNATH CHATTER- in his mind. Spontaneously every JEE (Bolpur): Mr. Deputy Speakn*. Member expressed his anger, his an- Sir, we are hapi^ that our unaitimous guish and unanimously expressed'the demand for an inquiry has been con- view that if the Ambassador is not ceded by the Govemmoit and that it called back at least he should be ask- also satisfies the demand of the 7 -2 lSS/ND'9l 91 Attention & care given OCTOBER 5, 1990 in London to la te 92 by Indian High Chief Justice Commission Mukherjee [Sh. Somnath Chatterjee] the report, except what has appear- ed in the newspapers. Therefore. 1 Supreme Court Bar Association, as the think, let it not be treated as a con- Hon. Minister has stated and I m frontation between this House or any personally happy that the Hon. Chief other institution. I think a time limit Justice is being requested to nominate should be fixed for the inquiry. The a judge for the purpose of holding an hon Chief Justice may be r^uested inquiry. Sir, the question is whether lo appoint or nominate a Judge of the further action should be taken at this Supreme Court and a time limit is fix- stage. No doubt. Sir. all of us here ed so that as expeditiously as possible, expressed the view on the basis of this unfortunate episode may be fully what wc had. at least I had pensonally. inquired into and the report is obtain- heard from Mrs. Mukherjee. ed. And if on the basis of the report, the Government has to take some MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER; That action, the Government will be bound is the point in issue. to take action I am sure. We shall also be insistent on that. But in the SHRI SOMNATH CHATTER- meantime, justice of the case would be 3EE: I had made a submission on met by accepting Mr. Indrajit Gupta’s the basis of what I heard from Mrs. suggestion. I believe with this modi- Mukherjee and prima facie I have no fication. Let him himself go volun- reason not to accept her version. The tarily on leave. That will not mean point, therefore, is what should hap- any aspersion on him. That will on pen thereafter after the inquiry has the other hand enhance his stature. If been conceded by the Government and he accepts the prima facie views of that too when at the highest level the the Parliament and he also allows the inquiry should be held. Sir, I also inquiry to be held properly without expressed the view that some action even an iota of doubt on anybody’s has to be taken even prima facie so mind, that will enhance his stature. that the inquiry is not viiiated. One of the methods that is adopted is that as justice should not only be done— SHRI JANARDHANA POOJARY the principle is well established—it (Mangalore): Mr. Deputy Speaker, should also appear to have been done. Sir. negligence is negligence. The Therefore, if Mr. Nayar. the present very fact that an inquiry has been incumbent remains in the office during ordered shows that there is a prima this period, there may be a feeling and facie case. The report of the President may be an impression in the minds of of the Bar Association has been some that the inquiry was not proper- relied upon and also the statement of ly allowed to be conducted. There- ihe wife of the Chief Justice was also fore. I think, justice of the case would relied upon. On the basis of these be met if the present incumbent Mr. reports, the inquiry has been ordered Nayar voluntarily poes on leave only now. If you kindly take into consi- for a few days, 'l am sure he will get deration the brief which has appeared the report and he will understand the in today’s Statesman and if you go views that have been expresssed here. into the details we feel that practically there is no defence even for the High T agree with Mr. Jaswant Singh on Commissioner. My submission wotiid one thing. T am glad he has raised it. be when there is a defenceless case The principle of aiuii alteram portem, before the Government, to defend the that is, nobody should be condemned High Commissioner, because he hap- unheard .should be applied in this case pens to be the friend of the hon. Mini- also. After all. when the doctor was ster I do not think that it will be fair on removed from the panel probably has the part of the Govenmient not to ask no defence to make. We do not know him to go on leave. Propriety requires, what the version of the High Commis- natural Justice itquiri^, that h« should sbner would be. We have not seen give up the post and during the 93 Aiimthn & care gifm ASVmA 1% I9i2 (SAKA) rntm ^w uH m ^ by bidkm High Cht^Justke Commission Mukfierj^e pendency of inquiry, he should not be SHRl MANORANIAN BHA* there. If he does not agree, thmi it is KATA: Yesterday, there was a oon* the duty of the Government to remove sensus on the suggestion diade Iw him from the place, otherwise, natural Indrajit Gupta. He said that 4unag justice will be in jeopardy. the pudency of the inquiry, the Commissioner in London should oe SHRI A. K. ROY (Dhanbad): Mr. asked to go on leave, so that the io- Deputy Speaker, Sir, what is the cause quiry can be held in a proper manner, or source of our weakness to that H i^ and so that the people can feel : ‘Yes, Commissioner? That is the most im- here, the Government really intends portant thing. I would siy that along to hold the inquiry to find out the with this inquiry, this should also be amount of negligence, and to see whe- inquired into. ther there is any connection of the High Commissioner of India, with 17.00 hrs. this controversy.’ Here. criminal noglicence may when hon Minister Shri Gnjral be a matter of conlroversy. bu in the House, he has parUally Ihc ari'ogance is obviou», and it accepted the recommendation provid- 1.S most hurling; and that itself is suffi- j„g f^j. certain things. We are thank- cient for demanding the recall of fy] jy unfortunately we have that type of an Ambass^or. I do arrogancc about which Mr. Roy not know how these Ambassadors are spoke. He said that it is a glar- appointed, what are the norms of ap- example of the Government’s pointing Ambassadors m this county, arrogance on this issue, and it indi- But I should say that we should be Ministers we have, very cautious, because m a very callous a particular person is not being way, in a very hurting way he has asked to go on leave. Tt was known expressed his opinion. It has come in ,0 this House. The point is that when the Press. 1 herefore, I say that the Parliament of India is discussing it, minimum which we should propose is or less cxpressine views in a what my senior comrades have sugges- unanimous manner about a particular ted. VIZ. that he should be asked to person, if the Government wants to go on leave. No que.stion of showmg shield him. it means that there are courtesy: to be restrained is a l^ y s some weaknesses between the Govern* good, but there are occasions when n^gf,t and that High Commissioner, man should be angry, and should ex- and that is why the Government wants press his anger. And this is an occa- {q shield him. If this Government has sion for that. got any respect for Parliament, for this democratic institution—I request MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Now the hon. Minister with folded hands to Prof. Kurien. concede this request and suggestion made by Mr Indrajit Gupta, and see SHRI MANORANJAN BHA- KATA (Andaman and Nicobar ^ inquiry report is Islandl): Sir, all the time I am trying. ^ I do not know my fault. I am also decision, a Member of Parliament, elected by MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Ofcay. SHRI PIYUS TIRAKY (Alipur- Mr, Bhakata; you can speak. This is duars): Mr. Deputy Speaker. Sir, the last day; you can speak as much thete is some truth is the n^ws wbteh as you like, but please remic»nber that we have got from newspapers and Mrs. you are speaking i^rinst somebody Mukheriee. Government is also aware who is not here in the Rouse. this fact due to which fluy havt 95 Alteniian A care given OCTOBER 5,1990 in Londf^n to Late 96 by IndUtn High Chief Justice Commission Mukherjee [Sh. Piyus Tiraky] which either Mr. Indrajit Gupta's sug- gestion be accepted or he should be appointed Chief Justice to enquire recalled immediately. Otherwise, the into this matter. It will be proper for inquiry will be totally farce. Mr. Nayyar to go on voluntary leave so that the inquiry should not be effec- PROF. P. J. KURIEN (Maveli- ted in any way and truth could be found out. If he does not go volun- kara): I take a very strong objection tarily, then Government should com- to the approach of the Minister of pel him to do so. This is necessary External Affairs where he chose to for the dignity of this country and this ignore the unanimous views expressed august House. Therelore, I request by this House and preferred to accept that Government should ask him to what had been recommended by Mr. proceed on leave or he should do it Venugopal. That report was preferr- voluntarily. ed here only as an evidence. But you please see that the views expre.ssed by this House should be honoured; the [Enf^lish] views expressed by this House are SHRT AJIT PANJA (Calcutta the views of all the senior mem- North East): There had been some bers of this House. Therefore, serious developments with regard to at least, the High Commissioner this issue. Yesterday, we discussed should be asked to go on leave when about it for some hours. Today also the inquiry is conducted. (Iniemip- newspapers carried out what had hap- tiom) pened so far as the ex-Chief Justice is concerned. Yesterday 1 met Mrs. Secondly, you go through the pro- Mukherji. Either some action must ceedings of the House. There is al- be taken against Mr. Kuldip Nayyar most an assurance from the hon. Fin- he should be called back immediately. ance Minister, Prof. Madhu Danda- vate. He said, the Minister of Exter- Mrs. Kuldip Nayyar is present in nal Affairs is already exercised over the town. She herself went to Mrs. the opinions expressed by this House Mukharji and pressurised the family and by tomorrow he will come out that it they did not withdraw allega- with some action. What does that tions in writing, there would be serious mean? repercussions. (ftUerrnplions) I had been to her. She was in a weeping condition. Today a large number of THE MINISTER OF FINANCE people went there. A pressure is (PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE): being buih. Therefore, unless the I will repeat what I had said. It was High Commissioner is removed in the Press. I said, the Minister of from there and all powers are taken External Affairs has already announc- out from him, the inquiry will be a ed in the House that Mr. Chandm total farce. If some evidence is re- Shekhar’s suggestion is receiving my quired by a Judge of the Supreme attention and tomorrow he will come Court, and if Mr. Nayyar is in ^wer, here and clarify the position and make then he will not only tamper with the a statement. That is exactly what I evidence but also make use of his had said. {Interruptions) You can powers and may also tamper with the check it from the records. {Interrup records of the hospital authority. If tions) Mrs. Kuldip Nayyar is present in the town* if she goes to Mrs. Mukharji, who is still in mourning and her reli- SHRl K, S. RAO: It is a question gious cerennony is not yet over 1 was of language. there for one hour; in details she told me what had happened and what PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE: is happening still—then it is a case in I am not as teamed as you are* 97 AttaUkm dk care given ASVINA13,1912(5^10) LowAm h a t hy indkm High C m ^ r n m Commission Mukherjee PROF. P. J. KURIEN; When you document itself. Therefore. 1 staited referred to the viws ex(a%ssed by the operating on the ba$is oi die docu- House and the Minister is considering ment. After all. all the argumeitts them, what should we mean by that? that were being ^given in this case, What should we understand by that? whatever be their coimotation or what* We understand by that, that the Mini- ever be their tone, they were based on ster is considering them for an action. this particular document. That docu- But what happened? You have con- ment has two parts. One is the reso- sidered only Mr. Venugopal’s sugges- lution of the Sufffeme Court Bar As* tion. (Interruptions} You have treat- sociation. And secondly, the state- ed this House with scant respect. You ment made by Mrs. Mukherji to Mr. should have considered the views ex- Venugopal. And. Mr. Venugopal pressed by this House, by all sections also is the President of the Bar Asso- of this House; and that is the mini- ciation. So. therefore. Mr. Venu- mum. First we said that the High gopal became the coitral figure in the Commissioner should be called back, whole situation. Mr. Indrajit Gupta’s suggestion was only a compromise. We agreed to SHRI K. S. RA O : So, many mem* that compromise that at least he bers also spoke here. should go on leave. Therefore. T re- quest this government through the SHRI I. K. GUJRAL: Ail my Chair to announce—-don’t shield him— hon. members, therefore, relied a great that the High Commissioner will go deal on this document. on leave. Otherwise, we would like to move a motion, the notice for which SHRI INDRAJIT GUPTA: I T have already given to the Deputy have never seen that document. Speaker. Please allow us to move that motion. If he does not do it then we will have to react to it. SHRI I. K. GUJRAL: Per- sonally also, when Mr. Chidambaram THE MINISTER OF EXTERNAL spoke—and I have a great respect for AFFAIRS (SHRI 1. K. GUJRAL): Mr. Chidambaram and he is an emi- Sir, 1 have a great deal of —not a nent lawyer, and a man who believes great deal but supreme—respect for in natural justice—he relied a great deal on this and respected it (Jnier- this House and I think I do not have lupriom) to say it because, most of my life, I have spent in Parliament and if there is one institution which I re&pect most, {Trdnslatkm] that i!> Parliament. Because Parlia- PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE; ment is the House which is the custo- There may be some diflSculty in under- dian of the collective wisdom and col- standing but there is no harm in Us- lective sovereignty of the country. tening. Therefore all that my hon. friends might say. always receives my respect- ful attention. It shall always. [EnfHisit] SHRI K. S. RAO: Several hon. Why 1 went to Mr. Venugopal is Members who are present here have simple. Because, when my frimd Mr. sp<^en for hours, and still once again Chidambaram raised the issue, he re- you are going round and saying about lied a great deal on the document Mr, Venugopal. which was given to him in the Supieree Court by Mr. Venugopal himsw and SHRI AJIT PANJA: If the Mini- also he placed It on the TaMe of tiie ster himself takes up the defence ot House. It would have bean a disres- Mr. Kuldip Nayar, there is no end. pect to the House on my part !f I What is this unholy friendship? Pf». had not taken due cognizance of the clous lives are being lost. 99 Altenlion & c m given OCTOBER 5,1990 in London to late 100 by Indim High Chief Justice Commission Mukherjee MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Mr. SHRI AJIT PANJA: He says. Panja, please...... ‘High Commission’i What is happen- SHRI AJIT PANiA: We do not uoderstand this. Sit. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Mr. Panja, are you not interested in listen- SHRI GUM AN MAL LODHA; I ing to him? heard Mrs. Mukherji’s woeful tak, with tears, for two hours which mov- SHRI AJIT PANJA: We must ed me to move this Resolution and it rely on the widow (Mrs, Mukhcijee) is on that basis. {Interruptions) who is still in town. She has not been treated properly. She is an eye wit- SHRI I. K. GUJRAL: When 1 ness to the whole episode, discussed this with Mr. Venugopal about this. {Interruptions) Is it for MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Mr, the hon. member to decide what I Panja, well, very strong opinions and should say? I have heard him with very logically and very forcefully have great respect. been expressed and...... {Interruptions) PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE; Will you dictate what he has to say? SHRI A. CHARI HS: Unanimously. SHRI I. K. GUJRAL: I have heard them with great respect. 1 ex- MR, DEPUTY SPEAKER: Proba- pect at least a listening. He may not bly there is a sort of unanimity also and the hon. Minister is replying to agree with me, but at least he should it. Please hear him. what he has to listen to me to what I am saying. The say. point made in this Resolution of the Bar Association, which was definitely exercised for good reasons, is. that it SHRI 1. K. GUJRAL: Thcrefoie.in accuses, or draws attention, if at all to tlifference lo the wiihes of this House the High Commission. So, therefore, and in dilTcreiice to the resolution pas- it is the totality of the body. sed by tile Bar Association, which also 1 resp,jct a great deal. 1 acted. 1 SHRI JANARDHANA POO- feel that the Bar Association of the JA RY : What is the difference in it? Supreme court is a body of men who are highly rcspectablc in this country and 1 am sccond to none in giving SHRI I. K. GUJRAL:...... There- due respect to Xhem...{Interruptions) fore, if we start arguing...... {Interrup tions) I5HRI K. S. RAO: You are not giving respect to the views of the SHRI A. CHARLES (Trivandrum): hon. Members...... {Interruptions) You ask the High Commissioner to go on leave. SHRI 1. K. GUJRAL: My hon, friends may have difference of opin- SHRI A. K. ROY (iMianbad); ion about the eminence of the Supreme Do we have to move a motion against Court members. 1 do not have (M/er- him now? ruptions) SHRI I. K. GUJRAL: If you PROF. P. J. KURIEN (Maveli- do not want to listen to me, you sit kara): Nobody has said that. Do not down. put words into our moulh. PROF, MADHU DANDAVATE: SHRI J.K. GUJRAL: I am not Listen to him plea.se. putting words...... {tnterruptiOns) 101 AttetithH A care glwn ASVINA 13.1912 (JSAKA) in Lomhn to late td J by Jn^m High Chkf Justice ■ Commission Mmheijee PROF. P. J. KURffiN: We have the Minister to put his wsponsibility only said that you should respect the on the shoulders of the Supreme Court feelings of the hon. Members...... Judge. You have to take a defiision.r {Interruptionsy I am very sorry. You are avoiding your resjwnsibility. Why are you pt»- ppnp MAr\mi r'.AMiiAVATP-DANIMVATE. y^wr responsibility C on o « the shoul- may kindly recall what 1 have said (Mangalor^. As Mr. K.uldip N ^ a r in the beginning of my sialement. As •* f™nd. he tries to protect hmi... I was interrupted so often, he natu- (interrupticm} rally forgets what I have said in the beginning. What I have said in the gfjRI B. SHANKARANAND; He very beginning was that the respect should have taken suo motu action on my part for this Hoase is second against the High Commissioner...... to none and I s and by it Tiiat is the (/Vm/pl/o/w) main p o m t..... {Interruptions) CUD, TMVIDCT, O.XT^U m . MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Please take your seats. garh): Then, acccpt the suggestion. {IntcmwUom) v (Iniermptfons) SHRI I. K. GUJRAL: That is why, ^ 1 am explaining my position here. PROl\ P. J. KURIEN: Please allow 1 am a product of this House. 1 am me fo move the motion...... {Inter- responsible to this TIou.se. I am trying riiptiomy to say precisely and with respect the essence of the debate yesterday was that this was an incident which defini- MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: I know tely needs to be looked into by an that the hon. Members in the House eminent person of a high stature, have expressed their feelings very There is nobody better than the clearly, very forcefully and unanim- Supreme Court Judge in our system, ously. 1 have no doubt that the feel- That is why, I have sought a meeting ings which have been expressed on with the hon. Chief Justice. He was the floor of the House have been gracious enough to give me time. I am noted. Then, the institution, judiciaty, going to meet him. Tf the ho.i. Chief ii also involved in it. The high oEUce Justice agrees to apjtoint either the of the Chief Justice is also involved Chief Justice of a High Court or a in it. Now the hon. Minister has said Supreme Court Judge. T will abide that inquiry, which was asked for. by that. I will abide by the names will be instituted. The hon. Minister that he gives. And if that particular also has said that prima facie if the authority, whom he names, thinks person or the persons who ate going that the course of inquiry would be into it come to the conclusion that facilitated by a particular person, one somebody has to eo on leave, action or two or three or ten persons, going would be taken, on leave or being dismissed earlier than that, T will abide by that also. (Inierruplkms) Therefore, let the normal course go through. Please do not give a iudge- ment on hearsay...... (Irtterruptimsy MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Please do not interrupt me. Do not do like ' SHRI B. saiANKARANAD (CWk* Now m view of this, I w m $ kodi): It Is very unfair oa Hie {MUt oi ^ppeed&te very much tiiat jron $to 103 A ttentUm d care given OCTOBER 5, 1990 in Im dm to Late 104 by Indian High Chief Justice Commission MtAherJee getting as much as you are really ask- davate intervened and therefore, the ing. Now there is one more a&pect in- motion was postponed. You kindly volved in it. The life of the Chief check up the records. The motion is Justice was involved. And he would already there. Even otherwise, we have also have taken action against any- givM the motion now. {Interruptions) body only after prima facie evidence. Please do not stick to the technicali- The motion which you have given, ties. well you have given it today. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: We SHRI SONTOSH MOHAN DEV have to stick to technicalities because (Tripura West); Yesterday? they become precedents. {Interrup tions) MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: 1 do not think so. At least it has not come PROF. P. J. KURIEN: Let us to me. Now you have given this check up ye.sterday's proceedings. motion today. (Jntemiptions) Why should he be protected like this? (lr»erruptions) SHRI HARISH RAWAT (Almo- ra): We have given two motions. SHRT GUMAN MAL LODHA: We have discussed this matter in a MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: 1 have very calm, quiet, congenial and homo- no idea...... genous atmosphere and in a unani- mous way. The hon. Minister has also (Interruptionx) gone to the extent of saying that the Chief Justice would be consulted in SHRI SONTOSH MOHAN DEV: the matter as to what is to be done Before giving your ruling kindly check and in what manner. May 1 request up from the Secretariat. that the hon. Minister may add one more sentence that he v;ould ensure MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: 1 am that during the actual enquiry there not giving any ruling. In the light of would be no impediment in the sense this thing, we would have risen to the that the High Commissioner would occasion for defending the wishes of not function there. That is enough. the House as well as the institution of judiciary. And nobody who under- SOME HON. MEMBERS: No stands the importance of the House ilnierru0ions) and the judiciary can brush a.side what you have expressed on the floor of the House. The only element which PROF. P. J. KURIEN (Mavelikara): is involved in it is the prima faiie The Chief Justice of India died due evidence. I hope, you would appreci- to callous negligence. If the enquiry ate this nice intricate judicial point is conducted and the person continues also. 1 appreciate if you do not press to be in office, how can there be an for it. impartial enquiry? (Infetruptions) (Inlenupfims) I.et me read my motion. SHRI JANARDHANA POOJARY: SHRI C. K. JAFFER SHARIEF The Minister has failed to discharge (Bangalore North): Sir, it looks as if his duties. He should resign. He is we are politicising this issue. I must defending his (Interruptions) say that we are not politicising it Mr. Kuldip Nayar is a good friend of ours. PROF. P. J. KURIEN: You kindiv We have regard for him. We have note that yesterday this motion was nothing against him. But the question given and motion was also allowed is the merit of the issue—one institu- by the Chair. But it is then Mr. Dan* tion that is the Parliament respectlrtg 105 Attention A care given ASVINA 13* 1912 (SA K 4) i» L oh^ W L ate 106 by Indian High Chief Justice Commission Mukherjee the sentiments of the other institution, spontaneously and politics did not that is the Judiciary. We are not take part in that discussion. Ail the making it a prestige issue. I do not Members present irrespective of their know why the Government want to party affiliations were unanimous in make it a prestige issue. We want mut- asking the High Commissioner to go ual respect by one institution to ano- on leave, if not recalling him. ther institution...... (Interruptions) Hon. Prime Minister, the Finance Minister, the External Affoirs Minis- MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER; I ter speak of values, democracy, res- would ask the Government from this pect to the Parliament consideration^ Qiair to give all the facilities which and consensus many u time in their can be given to Mrs. Mukherjee. speeches. Now, in a situati MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: He jee, had he retired, be made available. must take note of what has been said I have records of a past precedent of here...... certain financial gl&nts naving been given in the case of Jtistioe Fazal Ali. ilnterruptions) Taking into account the past prece- SHRI I. K. GUJRAL: Sir. it is un- dent, whatever financial grant was fortunate that a very learned and hon. given in that case, will be also made Member of this House should have available to Mrs. Mukherjee. brought in the name of the ladies. I (Interruptions) A feeling was expressed by the law- wish he had not...... yers and the Ju d ^ s that the person Let me finish now. 1 have also to who occupies the highest position of finish...... {Interrupticm) Sir, person- iot...:..{Irtterrupticms). the judiciary, should be given the ally 1 vouch highest status in terms of protocol. I Let me finish now. Please sit down... {Interruptions) have also initiated action on that that ...... the Chief Justice of India...... SHRI AJIT PANJA: Why should (Interruptions). Please listen. The pro- 1?...... {Interruptions) tocol procedure was not laid down by us. Under the protocol procedure that MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER; I have was established, the Resident, the lost my voice. Please sit down...... Vice-President and the Prime Minis- ter are entitled to a particular kind of (Interruptions) protocol—^the army protocol. The MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Please Cabinet Ministers and the Chief Jus- Mr. Panja, I am on my legs. Now, tice is not entitled. I have also written when I am trying to facilitate your that the person occuj^ng the highest Member spea Icing, you do not please position of the judiciary should also increase my difficulty by speaking. be given the same kind of protocol as When the Members from here are the real Executive head. But this is speaking. I stop them first: now 1 am a decision which T cannot take. My stopping you first. Mr. Panja, if what view will go to the Cabinet and I you have said is correct 1 do not hope some decision will be taken. know whether it is correct— that would Whatever we could do, we have done also be borne in mind. But the prac- within the protocol procedure and I tice is that we do not mention the can assure you that all these matters names of the persons in the House would be settled as early as possible. who ate not here to defend then'selves. That is the only thing. But I am not ITransiatian] saying that if what you liave said is correct, then it is reprehensible. But. SHRI BHOGENDRA JHA at the same time, 1 would ask the (Madhubani): Mr. Deputy Speaker. I Government to take note of it also. have given a notice regarding under- If it is correct, they will see. Let mining the dignity of Parliament by it be investigated properly and in a certain MPs. I request that T may be proper manner. All steps nete.ssary allowed to express ray views on the should be taken by the Government matter in the House. to see that justice is done and nobody MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: No. is pressurised. No. We will now take up discussion THE MINISTER OF STEEL AND under Rule 193. MINES AND MINISTER OF LAW SHRI BHOGENDRA JHA; T may AND JUSTICE (SHRI DINESH GO- be given some time after the discus- SWAMl): Sir, you have directed the sion. Government to give all facilities to Mrs. Mukherjee. 1 can inform the MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: All House that I nave already taken the right, you can expresf your views actton that whatever facilities would after that. have been available to Mr. Mukher- 109 J)isct4asi 1 7 ^ hn. exists from the point of view ct cofiB* munal harmony and national integca* DISCUSSION UNDER RULE 193 tion. Periia^ the national inttgra> tion or emotional integration of tiie Conumiiul ObtariHuices in Gonda in pec^le or the unity of this country is U.P. and ebewhere in Ac Country in peril graver than ever before and when I saw that, when I heard from [EngUshI the innocent people, well, that promp- MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: We ted me to put in this motion for ad- shall now take up Discussion under journment and later it was converted Rule 193. Shri H. K. L. Bliagat. into a discussion under Rule 193. SHRI H. K. L. BHAGAT (East Now, Sir, what is happening there? Delhi): Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I There has been some tiouble as the was prompted to move today a mo- people told us in Colonclganj. there tion for adjournment which the Chair was some confrontation, 1 cannot go was pleased not to allow and convert into the details, it is not possible for it into a discussion under Rule 193, me to pass any judgment on how it on the basis of what I along with Dr. started, how it happened, but what Rajendra Kumari Bajpai, along with the people have told us is that a con- Shri M, J. Akbar. along with Shri frontation look place and an atmos- Anant Singh, along with Shri N. D. phere before the riot was there for that Tiwary, toured in the Gonda district kind of confrontation. The Govern- of Uttar Pradesh yesterday, in Colo- ment is all aware, everybotly is aware nclganj and the villages round about of it--the Central Government is it. It is really a tandav dance of aware of it. all of us are aware of it, largc-scale destruction of houses, the State Government is aware of it burning alive or roasting alive of in- that in the whole of Uttar Pradesh, nocent women, children, >oung wo- particularly in the region round Ayo- men. young boys, innocent people, dhya this atmosphere is developing— absolutely by various forci's. various atmosphere of confrontation, atmos- people. 1 would say. well, I belong phere of communal rioting, atmosphere to a political party and every politi- of all that has happened there. Now. cal party has an angle. something starts in Colonelganj and as a result of that what I could tell, 17,56 hrs. [DR. THAMBl DURAl what we were told by the people pre- in the Chair] sent there was—it is not only that they are telling us, 1 have read it in 1 don't expect that anyone would the newspapers a report today—that agree to my assessmejit or my obser- fhe Government of Uttar Pradesh vation or what 1 say. Therefore, I has arrested the President of the Janata would do my best to say what 1 Dal, their own Janata Dal Party, and saw. and what I was told lirst band they have also arrested some people by the people present there, and all of the BJP and theu- close supporters of us. not me. a number of us. on what in connection with this incident. And has happened there and that points you have a storv of burnt houses, out to a very grave situation which charred bodies, weeping and wailing has been existing in this country to- women for no fault of theirs. In day. And it is not that I am saying Colonelganj there was a bit of con- this myself. This is a situation which frontation. in villages there was no has b ^ n pointed out by almost all provocation, innocent people arc de- the press of the country, on which liberately not going into the com- editorials were written, on which even munities of the tieople who have suff- the parties in this House-'all the ered. I am deliberately avoidti^ ft parties. I would say that there is no tMscause I do not want to turn this excepaon. all Ihe parties have point- debate into creating any tension in ed out that a veiy grave situation the country. But ihe fact of I l l Discussion under OCTOBER 5,1990 Commimal disturim^es 112 Rule 193 in Gonda in d elsewhere {Sh. H. K, L. Bhagat] SHRI H. K. L. BHAGAT: What I am submitting is that the people matter is that the whole thing is so there even talk about the nefarious miserable, so bad and so shocking. role of the PAC. Fliey even say that We have seen that this country toda> guns have been taken from them and is on a keg of powder and we all of they have been asked to have only us plead that we are all innocent and dandas. The Chief Minister is report- we are not contributing to it and the ed to have visited there and passed whole thing is happening in vspite of us some orders. Apparently, on the face and despite of us. No, the fact of of it, the orders arc not bad, but what the matter is that, today the country's is happening is, till the fifth day. no emotional integration is in danger and relief has been given. People have it is because of the dispute on the nothing to eat; people are crying, mosque-temple issue. It is a fact. X wailing and so on and so forth. I am cannot help saying it. deliberately not giving any break-up The Government's version says that ol‘ the people killed there.* I do not 37 people were killed there and large- want to give it community-wise. What ly the killings took place in the vill- 1 am saying is that the whole country ages, where the villagers have never is wondering as to what will happen fought and never did unything: inno- during the next 10 or 20 days. What cent people were killed there. In one will happen till the 30th? Where will village, according to the villagers this country go? Will they stay themselves, 10 villagers were killed and together or will they be torn 17 persons are missing. That is the asunder? What will happen to story of one village and the impres- the integration of the country? sion in the area is that a large number Every newspaper, magazine is writing of villages, perhaps 20 or even more about it. The National Integration are involved in that. The Govern- Council passed a resolution. It is ment’s version says that 37 people are most unfortunate and shocking that killed. Some other version says that the BJP instead of putting its view- 100 people are killed another version point had boycotted and did not at- says that 200 or 300 people are killed. tend the NIC meeting. The resolution Some people have said that it is like was passed. It is the duty of the Vialyana incident. We know about Government to persuade the BJP to Malyana incident because we were in accept that resolution. I do not know Government and it was shame to all of whether they have done it. I have us and therefore I thought that this absolutely no doubt about my Leftist matter should come before this House. friends. They do not need any certi- We are the highest elected body in this ficate from me. But they should also country. We must intrvx^ipcct, we exercise influence on tha Government must think and we must rise to the to do this. That is something com- occasion. Advaniji is having his Rath mon between you and them. You Yatra. He is attracting crowds. He cannot run away from the responsibi- is being put on "tilaks^ by blood and lity. The people have not produced it gives an impression to all the people this Government. You have produced that he is on a war chariot moving this Government. BJP has produced the people of the country. It is creat- this Government. It is you and they ing tremendous communal tension in combined together support this Gov- the country (Interruptions), This ernment. T know the views of the BJP. Gonda incident is not an isolated in- They call for the bmdh and tell the cident. It is happening all over the people.... country, in Uttar Pradesh, in Madhya Pradesh, in Gujarat and in other [Trmslafion] places, (fmerruptions) {Interruptions)...... They are telling MR. CHAIRMAN: ^ am not the people that no Government can allowing him. run by bullet and cruelty. The people. 11} Ditctmim tmder ASVINA IX 1912 {SAKA) Comimml iSstuiimiXf il4 Rak 193 Gonda in V.P. A elsewhere are asldog who is saving this Govera- What 1 am saying i&. basically I meat aod they have said that in case and my Party fully agree with the they woitld not save the Oovemment stand taken by Mr. Mulayam SiniJi then Congress will come back to Yadav. Chief Minfeter of U.P. that power. Let India conrinue burning pothing could be done by force. Settle- but Congress should not come to ment through mutuiil discussion as power. If they have courage, then Sanl.aracharya and others have also let there be elections, who so ever suggested should be resorted to. Tf may come to power. Actually they that cannot be done, finally the court are not in a position to face the j^ople. verc'ict should be respected. But nothing should be done by force. That [Eniilish] i> the basic stand A'h*’''t'. is correct ant! we stand by that staicment. Whatever 1 know where you stand. What mistakes we might have committoi in I am saying is. it is a movement for the past, is it necessary that you great introspection. should commit more mistakes? Is it necessary that you should I have respect for Advaniji. I v#ould destroy the process of India’s appeal to him that he should with* unity. India's emotional integration? draw his Rath Yatra. He should You are talking of communalisin and withdraw it in the interest of the i^asteism and both Janata Dal and country, in the unity of the country. BJP both are guilty on this count. That is not the way to do. It is to- tally wrong and it is harming the in- terest of the country. That is my view. (Interruptions) I am looking towards you. I would caution the Chief Mini.ster of Uttar 1 believe in religion better than Pradesh also that what we are to you. T am a more religious person see is that we should not say some- than you. But what you arc doing thing or talk something or make is wrong. I would say one more word speeches which can result in creating also. My view is that the stand excitement. I would caution the taken by Mr. Mulayam Singh Yadav. Chief Minister of Uttar Pradesh be- Chief Minister of Uttar Pradesh .. cau.se 1 was told by the people that some of the speeches are also worded [Translation] in a manner which creaio excitement. He should avoid that. What is need- DR. SHAILENDRANATH SHRl- ed is that we should be able to create VASTAVA (Patna): Mull-Yam Singh {Interruptions) harmony and put the people together, Yadav...... and save each other from confronta- {English] tion and particularly save the minori- ties. If 1 go on making speeches and MR. CHAIRMAN: f request the I go on lionising myself with the mino- hon. Members to listen to the speech rities. the end-result is bad. whatever of the Member who i.s speaking. If is achieved. That is a question there is anything objection, you can which should be considered. express it when your turn comes to sfieak. Do not interfere and go on shouting like this. What I am saying is this that my SHRI RAM NAIK- Let him add- young friend from this side is not ress to you. here but he .said something abrnit October 2nd and 1984 riots. I shall SHRI H.K.L. BHAGAT: 1 look to briefly refer to that. He spwifically the Chair. Now. Mr. Chairman. 1 am mentioned about October 2nd tnckient. looking to you atid not towards them. What has happened on October 2nd? 119 OiscussioH wider OCTOBER 5,1990 Commrnal disturimees U6 Rule 193 in Gonck in UJP. 4t elsewhere [Sh. H. K. L. Bhagat] net. You were there. I think you were not the Minister. The dots took place. There were two rallies. One was a We are not for shielding anybody. raUy by the Congress under the leader- It is wrong to say that the Congress ship of Shri Rajiv Gandhi which was did not act. You check up your re- the Sadbhavana Yatra in the mixed ports. figures and files. The Govern* areas of the old historic city of Delhi. meat at ^ a t time sent more than 2.000 This was a raQy whidi according to people in Delhi to court for prosecu- newspaper reports was welcomed by tion. Some of them were convicted lakhs of people. It was without any and some of them were acquitted by incident, without one single report of court and the Prime Minister said any trouble. It was welcomed by that it was a matter for the court to lakhs of people. Hindus. Muslims, decidc. We showed no mercy. We Sikhs. Christians, forward, backward should prosecute who is guilty accord- people, Scheduled Castes and by ing to law and against whom we have everybody. There was no complaint, sustainable evidence. It may be ray- no^ng of the kind. That is what the iself or any one. if you have to do it. Congress did on October 2nd. We do not grudge it. We do not shirk it. We are not afraid of it. If my blood is required in the solution On October 2nd there was another of the Punjab problem, Mr. Honie rally organised by some anti-rcserva- Minister, Mt. Prime Minister, it is tionists and some violence occurred. at your disposal. Vou should do that. We are prepared to help you. For the first time today niy young The Sikhs are a brave patriotic people friend has said something about our who have made India, who have made rally. I can only sympathise him for sacrifices. They were put in the Cel- his ignorance. Nobody blamed us for lular Jail. The largest number of anything on Octobcr 2nd. Some people who were tortured there were people were trying to shift the blame the Sikhs. It is unfortunate that some on us. That is, they sjid that prior of us continue to be blametl and per- to Octobcr 2nd. the Congress was haps we may continue to be blamed. highlighting the movement. We said Ultimately it is in my mind and at that there should be no immolation. an appropriate time 1 proptise to take We said that the movement should be that action. Ultimately, at any time done in a democratic, peaceful and when 1 consider the time is appro- non-violcnt manner. We are not in priate 1 would like to seek justice at it. We said that. In !»pi*e of that, he the hands of the Sikh Forum. 1 have BMs on blaming us for October 2nd. full rcspect for the Akal Takhu I Are you irked by the response that have faith in the Chief Justice of Shri Rajiv Gandhi is gettmg? He is India. The present Chief Justice doing Sadbhavana Yatra. The Let- of India was a Supreme Court tist parties have always been saying Judge who conducted the inquiry that this is a political movement for specifically on the basis of an affi- harmonising people. If we are doing davit given by the riot victims. He that, you should welcome and app- exonerated me and exonerated mhers. reciate it. We have some support Specific judgement is there. Still, we from the Left parties nowsoewr we continue to be persecuted. We do not disHke each other. T believe they are care. We would certainly face it. genuine circles, not the B.fP. ' ^on Even now. 1 would say that wherever understand BJP’s wony about Con- you have a sustainable case against gress’s influence in Delhi. T can under- anybody, take action. But do not stand what is in store tor them. indulge in witch hunting at all. We would like the guilty persons punish- What 1 want to say is that when ed. Let it be the riots in the past, the 19M riots took place, vour ftime today or tomorrow. You have to Minister was a Member of the Cabi- deal vrith them wherever fliey take 117 Dtiteussien m ier ASVINA13, tm (S4KA) Commmd mtwbtmces 118 Rule m in (km ia in UJP. 4t elsewhere place in whatever form or shape. But sCTious jeopardy. It is not that things do not go on trying to conceal your were all good before. It is not that sins of omissions and commissions there were no troubles before, Thew while making allegation against the were troubles. But we have now 1M4 riots. If you have any evidence, rewhed a very dangerous situation. if you have something, prove it. But This IS the moment when the Indian do not indulge in witch hunting. That Parliament must introspect, stop this is what I would like to say... (Inter holocaust which is in the nffina ruptions) Shri Ouman Mall Lodha and save this country from disinter- was the former Chief Justice. T know tion. That is the appeal I wouW that. Are there rules appreciative of make to all the parties, evidence? No. Who is guiHy? ‘A’ called ‘B’ guilty and ‘B’ called ‘C ^ ilty and so on and so forth. That MR. CHAIRMAN: Before I call is all The chorus of guiltiness has the next speaker, I want to inform the been carried on. We have suffered House that already the hon. Speakei quietly. We have suffered a lot. announced that we are taking up dis- But we have not made any noise cussion under rule 193. Now we are about it. We were not at all guilty. continuing that. Also, we have de- After the 1984 riots, T have won two cided that the House would go up to Parliamentary elections with overwhel- 8.30 p.m. I would, therefore, request ming majority. T do not consider it is all the Members to be very brief an achievement. But if you count and try to say whatever they want to the margin of these four hon. Members because I am having a large number together, my margin is more than that of names in the list. Please try to of all of them. From mv constitu- be very brief so that we can con- ency, there are lakhs of Sikh voters. tinue the discussion. Please coope- Tn the 1984 elections, F won with a rate with me. margin of about 3 lakhs. But ihey po on chanting me as guiltv^. That is all. 18.00 hrs. Tt is because they do not believe in justice... (Interruptions) Please do not [Translation] interrupt me. Sir, he is now looking towards me and I am not looking at SHRI BRIJ BHUSAN TTWARI him. (Domariaganj): Mr. Chairman, mo- tion regarding discussion on com- munal riots in different parts of the country has been, moved in the [Translation] House today. I was listening seri- ously to a senior honourable Member SHRI KALKA DAS (Kaiol Bagh); of the opposition. Tt is true that They are describing their misdeeds... the venom of communalism is ilnterrupticm)... their hands are spreading terribly in our coun- smeared with h\oo6...(Interruptions) try now-a-days and Uttar Pradesh i« the worst a ^ t e d State. Sir, one [English] thing needs to be noted is that there were no riots in Uttar Pradesh before Dussehra. No doubt thare were riots SHRI H. K. L. BHAGAT: Mr. in Kanpur but those were brought Chairman, I would say that India is under control immediately. Communal more important than all of us. India riots are continuously taking place is more important than any political party, any individual and anything else. after Dussehra. India’s unity and India’s emoti Sh. Ram Naik] his house. After that somebody said that no Cabinet Minister is present in something to the crowd and the crowd the House to note the points of the returned back runnin| towards his Honourable Members. house and attacked him badly with stones and brickbats. Mr. Kushwaha was seriously injured in this attack. lEngliih] He. somehow saved himself and en- tered his house, but the mob surround- MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister ed his house on all sides. According of State is here. to his own statement the agitated mob broke into his house and tried to set (Inierruptions) it on fire. All his belongings were looted. His family including the MR, CHAIRMAN; Till now he children were on the roof-top at that was here. And also the Minister of time. Some people tried to go there State is here. He will come back. even. The crowd tried to break into Just fof the name sake, asking for the that room also where Shri Kushwtiha Cabinet Minister is of no use. was sitting. There was an attempt on his life, but Shri Kushwaha somehow ilnterriipiions) managed to escape unhurt from the back-door and reached one of his SHRI RAM NAIK: But. not a friend’s house from where he inform- single Cabinet Minister is here. (//»- ed the Police on phone. lerniptions) The police reached after a lot of MR. CHAIRMAN: You would delay and after their entire goods and appreciate that the Home Minister property had been looted or destroy- was here. Ho was listening to it. He ed and after that. First Aid was given would come back. to our bleeding colleague. Kushwahji and thereafter, he reached Lucknow, ilnierrnptiom) He reached this House and was pre- sent in the lobby on the day when [Tnmilalion] voting was scheduled to take place here. I would like to say that the SHRr BRU BHUSAN TIWARI: atmosphere which is developing in our I was saying that certain incidents country today and specially in Uttar took place there after 30th September, Pradesh, is not good. I am not blam- especially in Ghazipur district of ing anyone and it is also not my aim Uttar Pradesh and at Colonelganj in to blame anyone. But T would like Gonda district. You know that a to say to the responsible Members Member of our party is elected from of Parliament and political leaders Ghazipur. He is a senior Member of that it should be given serious thought this House, viz; Shri Jagdish Singh that if such an atmosphere is develop- Kushwaha. There was no reason for ed through our conduct, work and provocation, but some people attack- words, this country will be divided ed his house after surrounding it. as you know that foreign powers have Before attacking these people moved an evil eye towards our country. towards one side after abusing. Shri Today selfish elements and vested in- Kushwaha was in his house at that terests of this society and this country, time. It was a crowd of nearly 100- exploiters and big capitalists who 150 people who had come to attack have collected huge amount of funds his house. All were familiar faces. It in the last 40 years, are not recon- was not a crowd of 20 or 50 thousand ciling to current change of power, pMple, Shri Kushwaha came out of Todav. it is their conspiracy to create his house to see when the attacking disturbances and violence on a vwy very lavkhly so that tbe peo|de the members of minority constnuiijty of this country may faave a feelxog are weak in ccnnpariBon to memlMsrs that only oae particualr famfly can of majority community and 1 advocate rule this country and no other party the interests ot the minority commu' is capable to rule this country. nity and the protection of their r^£s>. At the same place, I believe that the rights of the women who are weak in Mr. Speaker. Sir, if it is the view, comparison to the man in minority then I would like to remind you about community should be protected, cady the position of the country before then the society and the country could 1947, how the hatred was being spread be develop^ and strengthened. You widely by creating an atmosphere of can just think of the atmosphere in communal frenzy and the country was which we are living today. The man divided. Gandhiji had strongly op- who is powerful has become so rude posed it and made every effort to that he has no tolerance at all. he stop the division of the country, but has become totally emotionless. What all his efforts failed. But you must can we do in such a situation. Demo> have observed that Gandhiji had cracy is being discussed. The ^sic become the victim of this communal condition for the survival of demo- frenzy and communal mentality and cracy is an amicable atmospWe and he was shot dead. Even at that time protection of the rights of the people, when Gandhiji advocated that Rs. 450 and creation of a sense of security crores or more should be transferred among the weaker sections of Ae to Pakistan. Gandhiji was called anti- society and the members of the mino- national. It is a fact that if any risk is rities. If you look at today’s world undertaken or any such work is done map, you will find that democracy which is aimed at ameleorating the does not suit in the fanatic countries, lot of the poor and minorities, some Idemocracy exists in the coimtries people get angry. Mr. Chairman, Sir, which are called secular, where there I have always opposed the communa- is secularism and equality for all reli- lism from my student life, and from gions. Therefore, T would like to those days when I leamt the ABC make a submission with folded hands of politics. T am not opposing com- to those people who dream of a Ifindu munalism only today. 1 am not only nation that they should not try to saying it just for the sake of saying, end the very basic fundation of our but 1 have struggled for it at each constitution. There are two basic .step and risked my life for it. There- concepts in our constitution. Democra- fore, I have always opposed commu- tic Parliamentary - System and the nalism whether it is indulged in by Supremacy of Judicial^ and alongwith minority or by majority community. this, the Prime Minister had mention* But I would like to submit to you that ed in his speech yesterday about the people of the coimtry would have equity and a sense of justice. If a to be explained the qualitative diffe- rence between these two t}rpes of feeling is not created among the peo- communalism. If there is a clash bet- l^e through constitution, administration ween the communalism of majority and judiciary that they have got a community and minority community set up which can provide justice to to strengthen the country, then com- all and can en'^ure rights to the people, munalifim of majority community will be more dangerous in comparison to then this system has got no value. It that of the minority crnnmunity. I do Is not useful. Therefore. I would like not want to blame Bhagatji, but I re- to raise this point with great solemnity member that your liovemment had and seriousness. There may he poli- gave in before the pressure bv the male tics. different parties wiU cocoe and c [Sh. Brij Bhusan Tiwari] the ‘Rath Yatras’ or ‘Sadbhavaoa Yat- ras*. If a fear psychosis k developed I feel very sony for what a senior in the minds of the people spwially Member said in this House. If such those belongmg to the minorities by thing had been said by a child of 9 the yatra of anyone, it should not be yean of age or by an illiterate man of undertaken. Anti-social elements may a village, then I would not have felt also get involved in it, £rwtrated so. but a senior Member of Parlia- politicians may also indulge in such ment has said that he is not Mulayam activities. If these persons or any Singh, he is Mulla-yam. You know other elements try to disturb toe law only this about Shri Mulayam and order situation, nobody will tole- Singh. If you visit Uttar Pradesh and rate them. I would like to submit that look at the waUs, indecent slogans it would be in the national interest, and abuses against Mulayam Singh if such ‘yatras’ are not undertaken and Shri V. P, Smgh are written on and such ‘yatras’ are banned by the the walls. The people abuse them on Government itself. These ‘yatras’ roads and on every crossing. What is should be organised only when the its reason? Who are these people? situation becomes normal and there It is the mentality of high class peo- is healthy atmosphere, only then one ple and of those people who believe should undertake yatra among the in casteism and communalism. Is it people. We should take a resolve to a sin that a son of a farmer has been strengthen this country. This country appointed Chief Minister of Uttar neither belongs to Janata Dal nor to Pradesh? I would request those peo- Bhartiya Janata Party or Congress. ple with folded hands who talk such This country belongs to all. This things that Shri Mulayam Singh is country belongs to crores of poor peo- creating tension, that Haty should ple of the country. With these words. not talk such thinss. I have attended I conclude. his rallies many times at many places. He has said three things, any deci- sion should be taken with mutual SHRI RAJ VEER SINGH (Aonla): talks, and he would abide by the Hon. Chairman, Sir. before me, two decision which will be taken by both senior Members have expressed their the parties. If they do not reach any views and explained big principles in decision, then whatever is decided by itheir speeches. the courts will be accepted. If this is also not possible, then he will accept SHRI SHOPAT SINGH MAKKA- the direction of the Prime Minister SAR (Bikaner): But these had no who is our leader. Besides, all the effect at all. three options, he has also said that if someone wants to have a clash with SHRI RAJVEER SINGH: These the iudiciary or wants to take law in do have effects, but you do not want one’s hands or wants to play wth the to be affected. I have noticed great feelings of the peoole, it is his duty diversion from the main tO[sc which not' as Mulavam Sin»h, but as Chief is being discussed here. The topic for Minister of Uttar Pradesh to defend our discussion is the riots which have the unitv and integrity of the country taken place. But I feel that nobody and maintain law and order in the has spoken on the main topic. The State. Whether he remains in power Soeako-s mostly raised fingers on or not is not imnortant for him. Coun- ‘Advaniji”s Rath Yatra’, ‘Religious try and its unity is more important Yatra’, land ‘Sadbhavana Yatra’. Hon. than power. Today it is not the Bhagatji and hon. Tiwariii had main- issue^ for mere discussion. What is ly spoken on this issue. The t(^ic was required is that all of us shouW search as to how the riots took ptace in our hearts and try to save the coun- Gonda on 29th September and what try from breakine up and try to create were reasons behind it? Nobody has communal harmony. T am not againtt any answer to these questkms. I have ^25 Discusm under ABVTtiMi, 1912 {SAK4) Cmmunal m vrlm eis VM m e 19$ in Omda in V.P. 4k elsewhere got answer to tibese questicms. I would is respons^le lor the fire tmdw like to submit that a conventional pro* up in the Maja T«rai area of 134 cession was passing on the occasion villages living peacefully, the kSHips of Dushehra on 29th September. After of a large number of people and w the procession, there was the mo* damage of Durga idols and temples. gramme of immersion of Hindu idols. The Kamailganj Janata Dai preaxieat When this procession was passing Shri Yawar Hussain alias Munna aiod through a particular place, where Mohammad Khalik are said to have there is the oflSce of a political party, played a sigmficant role in spreading there is a mosque as well as an or- communal violence by attacking the phanage. It was a narrow lane and- Durga idol immersion procession on at the same place, house of the pre- September 30. The incidents of ston- sident of that political party is also ing the procession and the open use of situated. I would give &e view of handgrenades and fire weap<»i8 start- Bhartiya Janata Party later on. but I ed near orphanage, the mosque ^ would like to submit as to why the the house of the city Janata Dal presi- riots took place in such a situation? dent. {Interruptions This newspaper ‘Aaj’ is not B.J.P. newspaper, it is a very old newspaper of Uttar Pradesh. I want to read out I have related one thing. It the main points from that newspaper. has appeared as a main news It has been mentioned ui it. item and the paper is not run by the BJP. It is a major and a very old newspaper of Uttar Pradesh and “Due to negligence of administra- such learned persons as Shri Kamla- tion and uncontrolled activities of pati Tripathi had been the editor of few leaders belonging to a parti- it. I would like to define as to what cular community of the ruling communalism is, and who is involved party, more than 100 people are in it. First ail we must decide today feared to have been killed and as to what communalism means...... dozen of children are feared to (Interrui4lons) Who were involved in be missing in the incidents of the incidents of riots. Has the involve- violence and arson in Kamal- ment of Bhartiya Janata Party been ganj (Gonda)”. found there or has any BJP leader or wodcer been apprehended in that re- gard. Only the leaders of Congress-I. The district administration has con- and Janata Dal were arrested. I firmed 35 deaths so far. More than 70 would like to explain as to why such children in the age group of 12 years circumstances and an atmosphere of to 18 years participating in the Durga hatred is being created. Just now idol immersion procession have been Tiwariji spoke a lot in the praise of missing since the riots took place. The the Chief Minister, he must do it. rioters broke 16 idols being takm in But my submission is that 1 have the tractor and trucks and 16 tractors heard and watched the video cassette were damaged and set vehicles ablaze. of Chief Minister’s speech delivered in Besides, two temples were damaged Aligarh University and also heard the and incidents of arson took place on cassettes of other speeches. The riots a large scale. More than 50 villages took place not only on 22nd. but includine Karmailganj have been also on 15th of September in Bareilly. aSected Dy it. About one and a half The riots to<^ place on the occasion lakh people have been facing the of the rally of Shri Mulayam Singh evil consequences of this communal Yadav in a well planned manner to lunacy. Besides Kamailganj. 31 other make the rally a success. After all, villages have been handM over to the why is all this happening?...... security forces. Silence of death pre- ilnterruptions)...... 1 am only v^nriog vails in these areas and the terrified to the ^ ts . I will provide you proofe faces seek only one answer as to mka for it, Chaudhary Sahib. 127 Discmshn under OCTOBER 5,1990 C m om m d Ssturhtm ees 128 R v k 193 in Gonda in V,P. d elsewhere SHRi SAIFUDDIN CHOUDHU- When a person holding the responsi- RY (Katwa); I had att«ided the Ba- bility of the whole stete says in a reilly meeting. What he has said is not meeting that the people of a parti- true. cular community have got the right to keep the weapons with them...... SHRIRAJVEER SINGH: People in laiBe number in various groups AN HON. MEMBER: It is totally joined the rally. I would like to sub- wrong. (Interruptions) mit that since I am a resident of that particular place, I know the tactual position. You must have gone (here SHRI MAT! SUBHASHINI ALl by aeroplane and by car to the meet- (Kanpur): It was never said. ing place, you have not moved in the lanes and by lanes...... (Interruptions) SHRI RAJVEER SINGH: It has ...... some people were being carried definitely been said. I have got the in tractor trollies, while some mis- new.spaper cuttings. 1 have got the guided youths were opposing them. tape ol the speeches...... (Interrup- However these youths did not belong iiom )...l have got the video cassette. to the BJP nor they were concerned My submission is that the reason be- about the Ram Janam Bhoomi or Ram hind it is...... (Interrupiiom). I have Temple. They wanted to get the issue neither interrupted you. nor anybody of jobs and reservation solved. I reg- else. 1 have continuously been listen- ret to say that the party-workers and ing, though we were attacked, but now the people of other supporting parties kindly listen to me also. I am not who came to attend the rally of the attacking anyone, 1 am only relating Chief Minister had brought with the facts...... {Interruptions)...... them large quantity of stones with If we go on delivering provocative which the youths were stoned. The speeches and advice the people of a Collector and the SP of that region particular community to keep wea- have accepted this fact. This is the pons, it will automatically create ten- origin of the incident. The riots in sion. Bareilly started in this manner...... Sir, on 29th of the last month, 10 SHRI SAIFUDDIN CHOU- or 11 people were killed, while the DHURY: This is wrong. dead bodies of about 35 persons have SHRI RAJVEER SINGH: 1 am been recovered in Gonda. Today 1 referring to the facts and that too have received the information that with ftill responsibility in this House. about four hundred people have been killed in Karnailganj of Gonda district 1 can do the same outside tew if re- ...(Interruptions).,.e\tn quired. small children who came to watch the fair there, SHRI SHOPAT SINGH MAK- are reported to be missing and their KASAR: When you are saying it parents are grief stricken...... (Inter inside the House, is he doing the rupt same outside the House? SHRIMATI SUBHASHINI AU: SHRI YUVRAJ: My point of It means that Yawar Hussain killed order is that...... Please listen to me his own people. first. No allegation can be made against a person who is not present in the House creating difficulty for SHRI RAJVEER SINGH: You him to give the reply. It should be have received the information about expunged. your community through your own sources, I have not received any infor- SHRI RAJVEER SINGH: Why mation in that regard. The persons and where do the riots take place? killed in the incident iadude Hindus M m ssim tmder ASVlKA II. 1912 Commmddistmimees i30 I b d e in (SAXA) In Gottda in £/.?. d elsewhere as well as Muslims. Whenever Com- Minister has declared that a judicial muQsl hatred spreads and the riots enquiry would be conducted into it take place it hardly matters whether He has done a right thing. However the person being killed is Hindu or a through you and this august House Muslim, whoever comes in the target, I would like to submit to him not is killed. The buUet does not discri- to impose his own opinion. On one minate between a Hindu or a Muslim, hand he has ordered an enquiry while it does not recognise a Hindu or a on the other he is levelling a ll^ tio o s Muslim. My submission is that in on others. It would be nothing more the K a rn a il^ j town in Gonda, than a mere ridicule of the judicial tension prevailed oo the occasion of enquiry. Even the judges axe being ‘Taaa procession’...... {Ituerruptioas) influenced. On one side courts are said to be given full recognition while SHRl C. K. JAFFER SHARIEF on the other judges are being influ- (Bangalore North): But the experi- enced. He is holding such a presti- ence shows that the killer knows it gious post of the Chief Minister and ...... ilnterruptions)...... he is making the allegation that some particular persons are responsible for SHRl RAJVEER SINGH: The those riots. He could have made this concerned oflBcials controlled the statement before ordering an enquiry situation at the time when tension pre- into it. But after ordering an enquiry, vailed. Unfortunately the communal it does not look good on the part of activities got the SP of that area a Chief Minister to level such charges. transferred somewhere else exactly At this crucial juncture the Chief seven days before the festival of Minister should act in a very wise. ‘Vijay Dashmi’ while as per the rule modest and careful manner...... no ofScial is transferred on the occa- (Interruptions) sion of any festival, the collector of that region was transferred immedi- Mr. Chairman. Sir. Gonda district ately after this incident took place. has been sealed. Nobody can go The details are there in the newspaper. there, not even an MP can go to see The Collector says that he being a the situation. Through this august new person to the area knew nothing House. I would like to submit to the and SP also gives the similar state- hon. Mini.ster of State in the Ministry ment. Anyhow Gonda is in flames, of Home Affairs who is present in it has been destroyed Karnailganj the House to immediately send a has been destroyed. Tt won’t do mere- Parliamentary Committee there. ly by making allegations on others. Efforts should be made to create an iCfy submission is that at least in this atmosphere of goodwill in Gonda and House some of the Members have groundwork in this regard should be been under the effect of BJP jAobia. carried out immediately...... (fnter- Perhaps people have been demora- ruptiom) lised or jealous to see the increasing strength of BJP. A rumour is spread about anything that happens that BJP Hon. Bhagatji and Tiwariji have also might be there. BJP is held responsible said that riots in Gonda were preplan- for every mistake. If one does not ned. The S.P. was deliberately trans- have any child, BJP is blamed...... ferred from there. All these aspects {Imerrupfiom) should be looked into. After all who are the people behind it who want to SHRl SHOPAT SINGH MAK- incite violence. Advaniji’s Rath Yatra KASAR; Has this particular work is being undertaken in Maharashtra, been also undertaken? how come riots at Gonda are behig attributed to it...{Interruptions). I want SHRl RAJVEER SINGH: If need to inform the House that people from be. this work would also be utider* different communities and faiths tnchid* taken. Xlrnerriiptions) The Qiief ing Hindus. Muslims. Sikhs. Christians 131 Discussion under OCTOBEH 5.1990 Communal disturbmces 132 Rtde 193 in Gonda in UJP. A elsewhere fSh. Rajvcer Singh] this party has been arrested in the Gonda incident. You go through the are joining the Rath Yatra of Advani- newspaper you will find that if at all jt they are greeting and admiring him there is any name it is that of my for H...{Interruptions). The same thing friend who is the Presidwit of Janata is being repeated in the House. It is Dal and some others belonging to yet known that which member has Congress...... {Interruptions) referred to us. I have not yet under- (Interruptions) stood it. which politi- SHRI HARISH RAWAT (Almo- cal party has raised the issue of Hindu ra): The Gonda incidents are the re- Nation and what is meant by it? What sult of connivance between your party is Hindu? It has become a fashion of and the Janata Dal. Do not drag the day to abuse Hindus. The foreig- Congress into it...... {Interruption^)... ners who came to this country named this country as Hindustan. This name has not been given by us. Those SHRI C. K. JAFFER SHARIEF foreign invaders while crossing river (Bangalore North): Mr. Chairman, Sindhu did not know the difference Sir, 1 am happy that the BJP Member who spoke before me has enumerated between “Va" and “tha". Thus they certain points. If their party claims named it Hindu instead of Sindhu. that they are not for a Hindu nation, 1 feel, what else can be better than This nation is called Bharat and this. It is indeed a matter of pride as such what is the difference between lor an Indian citizen. But unfortu- Bharat & Hindu. He who lives in this nately the language VHP is using country is an Indian. If foreigners and in support of which they are after coming to this country, named undertaking the Yatra had it been it Hindustan and called the citizens used against Pakistan or against any of this country Hindus then how does enemy inside or outside the country it matter?...(//iieff«pn*o/iis)... Those then we could have accepted it and who have not read history and have could have given due weightage to it. no knowledge of it...... {Interruptions) ...... People lacking knowledge of this Mr. Speaker, Sir, 1 am speaking country and the sentiments of the here as a representative of the people 8 5 people of this country...... {Inter- mptions) of India and not on behalf of a mino- I feel that those who sup- rity community. Just few days ago port one particular community arc in one of the meetings I said that termed as secular, and some others none of us had submitted an applica- who stand for a different community tion in advance regarding the place are declared as Nationalist and those where we were willing to take birth who care for the entire society and nor can any one take the responsibility voice the thought of 85-90% popu- of one’s birth upon himself. Nor can lation are termed as communal...... {Interruptions). anyone have a choice regarding reli- In such circumstances gion or Nation. But every Indian we shall have to ponder over what ex- should be proud of his parentage, his actly is communalism? They should {Interruptioas) home where he was bom. the religion read it’s definition...... which taught him various things and ...... At present the situation of this the soil where he grew up. We are country is tense. At this hour please all proud of it. I belong to the do not add fuel to the fire rather try Indian soil and I have been given to put it out. Is it the only way to birth by dignified parmts. I am also overcome communalism. {Interrup tions) proud of the religion which I inherit- ed suKe it shows the world the light of humanity. But as I grew and start- My submission is that neither the ed understanding, I found that every name of a single B.J.P. Member has religion in India gives light to tiie figured or any member belonging to world. No religion leads the world 135 Discussion uiuhr ASVINA13,1912 (5^/L4) Cmmmd mmlmcts 134 Rule 193 in Gonda i» IfJP. 4t elsewhere towards darkoe&s. If all these things pose with a view to strengthen ^ are correct th«i why should there be Govt, of diat place in a bM to streng- a tension in this regard. Why are you then tihe secular forces. The s«culttr fighting for a mosque. Why do you forces in this country have a vital role want to fight a battle for a temple. to play. I felt very happy when just Who prevents you from having a tem- now I heard an Hon. Member ple. Perhaps, the B.J.P. peopfe might B.J.P. If it is really then* intention not have visited as many temples, mos- and if Shri Advani feels that it is a ques and churches as I have done. ‘Sadbhavna Yatra’ then it can be car- Our colleagues belonging to left par- ried on but not with the Mandir- ties may not have faith on it and I Masjid issue in the backdrop or as a have no grudge against them but custodian of Hindus. If a tem^e is whenever a person goes to any reli- to be constructed then we too are gious piace, he thinlcs of self impro- willing to join it. History stands vement and do penance for the sins testimony to this fact and it need not committed. He makes confession and be reiterated in parliament since secu- tries to tread on the right path. Re- ralism is an old tradition, it is the ligion never leads anyone towards a history and the culture of this coun- wrong path. But it is unfortunate that try which has) gone deep into its roots. in this country we claim to be the We may belong to any political party custodians of religion. V.H.P. have but we should not create problems rightly said that no one knows the from the mass in a bid to humiliate origin of Hinduism and there is no each other. You may be involved in proof about it. Some anonymous per- a conflict with Mulayam Singh Ya- sons called the river Sindhu as Hindu dav, that is a separate issue. We p d Hindu Nation and religion came are also in the politics it power has into being. We have not found it gone out of our hands we will strive mentioned anywhere neither in Rig for it but not on this issue. Just sec Veda nor in Bhagvat Gita or Upani- the condition of the Impoverished shadas but everything goes on here. lot. They are encountering a lot of A person who happened to discover difficulties. As it has been stated that a mosque become its custodian. Why the children are missing and the do we create these sort of things. On parents are weeping, I want the peo- the contrary we talk of humanity. ple belonging to various parties to go there in person and console me women who have lost their husbands, I am aware that the IJ.P. Chief ^ e n you will meet the widows you Minister has taken a stand in this re- will come to know of their d istr^ . gard. In the National Integration After looking at the orphans you Council meeting a ray of hope to will realise their misery. We bhould improve the future of this country stop discussing what the previous was seen. Not only people belong- Govt, did and this happened during ing to various political parties were your regime. The job of making present there but people from all comparative statement is done by the walks of life were seen. A rav of bureaucrats. They are engrossed in hope was .seen since no one talked calculations. We have not to do so. on communal lines. Everv one want- Anybody can become victim of it ed to strengthen the Secular charac- Tomorrow I may fall in the trap. We ter of the country but the difficulty should think over it. If we do not was that Mulayam Singh spoke about care for humanity then I am afraid it after coming out of tmrty c Sh. C. K. Jaffcr Sharicf] we shall be able to fru.strate the evil designs of those who want to weaken Africa. We will have to care for it. this country. I feel a sense of remorse when I say such things. Yesterday our brothers SHRIMATI SUBHASHINI ALI from Kashmir were sitting outside. The (Kanpur): Mr. Chairman sir, the issue security forces have been deployed before the House pertains to a parti- that to protect the people but the way cular place. Unless we look into the men and women are being subjected background of these riots that took to atrocities and are being made tar- place in Gonda, we shall not be able gets to the bullets is a sevious matter. to understand fully the reasons why It should be looked into. This is not riots are occurring these days in seve- a political i.ssue. Credit should be ral parts of the country. These riots given to Shri Mulayam Singh for the pose a grave danger but it does not stand he has taken. And we v^ish that mean that there is a thread to the be may continue with stern initiatives national unity and integrity. The against the reactionary forces. It is honourable Members who are present not a matter of instigaung anyone. in the House are fully aware of this It may lead to tension some time. situation. The fabric of our secular May be ho says so to build confidence culture and society is being ripped in them. The minorities have the ut- up. Unless we try to analyse why most courage. We should not sup- these riots are occurring, we will not press their voice. If someone delivers only be able to check them but also provocative speech it should be che- will not be able to suggest a way out cked. My B.J.P. friend has raised a to contain them. very good point. I would like to draw their attention towards Himachal It is not an occasion to level Pradesh. There is tension in the state charges and counter charges. All of and curfew has been imposed for last us who are sitting here are perfect in so many days but even then Govt, is this art because we frequently use functioning and there is peace and this weapon to grab votes during tranquility.. (Interruptions). 1 have electioneering. That work we have already expressed my views about already accomplished. People have Karnataka and whatever 1 have said sent us here with great expectations. is on record of the proceedijig of the The minimum bare hope now the House. Let there be any party in citizen have is perhaps peace will be power whether it is our party or any restored and the country is saved. It other party we are mainly cimcerned is not a difficult task provided there with the welfare of the citizens and is will for it and where there is a will the poor class whom we represent there is a way. There is no such here in this House. It is not mono- issue in the world which could not be poly of any particular poHtical party. solved. I would like to draw your Tn order to reduce the growing ten- attention to the incidents of the pre- sion in the country over thir» issue all vious year at that time it was bein^; of us will have to work on the line felt that the country will bum it will of the National Integration Council. not be saved, but even at that time We should find some way out to solve an agreement was made on 29 Sep- this dangerous problem which is a tember 1989. I would like to lay the major threat to the fraternity among copy of the agreement on the table the citizens of the country. As such of the House.* The agreement was this Yatra will be of little helt>, only made among the delegates of the through a joint venture by taking all Ministrv oC Home Affairs, the then parties into confidence, we will suc- Chief Minister of Uttar Pradesh and ceed in our mission and thereby the Hon. leaders of the V*H.P. The ♦As the Speaker subsequently did not accord the necessary permission, the paper was not treated as laid on the Table. U 7 D tm sb m m ie r ASVINA13.1912 <3S4Jt<) Coimmaldls(tiHkn$im m Xule m in Gouda in UJ>. A elsewhere ent bears the s^natures of Shri ing held at Madras. I want to cay ji. Mabant Abed]« Natfa. Shri that we diould value the virtues or Dau Oayal Khanoaji. I would like Lord Rama cm whose name this move- to tead out an extract from this agree- ment is going on. It is said— ment which was a sincere dfort in the direction of rraolvii^ ^ issue. “RAOHUKUL Rm SADA CHALI AYEE [English] PRAN JAYE PAR WACHAN NA JAYEB.” “The VHP undertakes to abide by the directive c t die Lucknow So the persons who readied the con- Bench of the Allahabad High sensus should abide by thdr promise 0 )u rt given on 14-8-1989 to the without any pressure from anybody. effect that the parties to the dis- One may see the copy of that c broth^ood, we will iiave to make [Smt. Subhasliini Alii the atmasphete congenial in the coun- themselves by temembering his sacri- try. I do not believe that our hon. fice. But now what happens during fnends from the Bhartiya Janata festivals even. Whenever we celebrate Party do not want to make that at- any festival particularly in North mosphere. Bhartiya Janata Party and India, we depute P.A.C. on the roads. its members love the country as much as others do. But they should not Today in North India people cele- forget that we have a commitment to the country. We have taken an oath brate their festivals under police pro- tection. In the event of a festivai in that we would do everj^ng to North India fear grips the minds of protect the unity and integrity of the t^ people as to how the coming fes- country. In order to realise this, a tival would pass off. They always congenial atmosphere has to be crea- apprehend new mishap. 1 would, ted in the country and it is not a therefore, like to appeal that keeping difficult task. For this it is not neces- in view our sentiment’s and the ideo- sary to make any great sacrifice and logy regarding these accords, we give up any of his great ideologies. should proceed further after arriving Nobody is required to shift from any at a consensus. If we give up the of his beliefs.* Only thing they have to say is that thev would not boost 19.00 Ins. Lord Sri Ram’s honour by hurting efforts and indulge in allegations and others, they would not construct the counter-allegations, we cannot save place of their worship by hurting the the situation and once it goes out of feelings of others. our hands and takes an ugly turn it will not be possible to control it. I am KUMARI UMA BHARATI: of the view that let the temple be Please make this appeal to the other constructed. And, in fact, nobody can side also. {Interruptions) prevent the construction of Sri Ram Temple at Ayodhya. when people are SHRIMATI SUBHASHINl ALI: so much attached with Maryada Please let me make my speech. I am Purushottam Ram, No power can not delivering any discourse to you. stop it. It should not oe stopped. I am not at all capable to deliver Entire countiy should contribute its any sermon. I would also not like might in this cause. But, at the same to associate myself with people who time, it becomes our duty to protect deliver sermons. But I would defi- other faith before it is destroyed in nitely remind the words of the great the name of Lord Ram. Ihe mosque man who is regarded as a great de- which is existing there today is not a votee of Lord Ram. which are as beautiful building. It is an ordinary follows:— mosque. But today, it has become a symbol of some basic principles of “Aisi bani boliye. Ac country. We will have to under- stand its importance. It has become Man ka aapa khoy. a symbol of our large heartedness. Auran ko sheetal kare, Though I would not like to make any comment as to what will be the Aapahu sheetal hoy. situation in Kashmir and Punjab once Babri Masjid is demolished. What X would Bke to submit that 1 am not ^11 be its impact on our national? dstutbed or i^stressed by anything, living in other countries. What will but one thing, has deeply jpained me. be the plight of otor people who are Tliat is a slc^ui whidi Is being given living in deserts and clamouring for in this connection. Yesterd«y, I read a drop of water. When this mosque from *Navtdutrat tfanes* that dvring has become a symbol of secularism th<^ course of his Rath Yfttra. Shri and tibe symbol of mutual trust and Advani n>ad« an appeal topoopfe’ ^4t lOimssi^n md6r A S V m 13, m % (JSMA) m MiHle 19$ in Goada k, VJP^ S €kewhere not to give tbat r'')gao. But the sio* is certain that tibe coQ&oaMtiiMi viD |8Q coii^mues to be given. If Shri be harmful for the cotmoy «nd dia* Advani aod Stui \ aj{>ayee ami all of astrous to its unity and iatencity. Ay us want tibat a coigenial atmosphens such in ordeir to impl«neat u e aeomd should be created in the country, we pan of tlie Madras R«sohitk»i 1 shall have to think about tbat slogan would like to urge the Govennient and nothing else except that slogan to invite leaders of various religious ...(Jntermptiom) Kalka Das ji, you groups and request them to ifind out are a very tespectablc merabcr, Pkase a solution to this issue. The Cov«ni« do not say so. I read this slogan yes- ment should express its helpleiisneM terday only. Of course f have come and handicap to them so that tbgr across many more vulgar s igans than resolve this dispute and bring peaea this. I would not like fo 0 scuss them and prospi^ity to the country. With here. What I read from yesterday's these words I conclude. newspaper is “Eak do, cak do. Babri Masjid ko tod do” It is also a fact that during the course of the Rath [English] Ya.tx&...(Interruptions) You feel it proper. It may be your belief but SHRI JANARDHANA POOJARY not mine. I also learnt from the newb- (Mangalore): It is the same voice we paper that when Advani ji heard this heard todii>. It is the voice of the slogan he requested the people accom- nation. It is also the voice of the panying him not to give the slofian. Mother India. We appeal to BJP to From the above action of Shri Advani give up this Ra& Yatra. it appeared to me that Shri Advani and Shri Vajpayee still have a soft corner towards &e points on which a [Tramlatkm] general consensus was arrived with the Vishwa Hindu Parishad last ysar. SHRI MITRA SEN YADAV Now I would like to point out the (Faizabad): Mr. Chairman, Sir, this Government that the Resolution wliich session of the House was summoned was adopted at Madras has two parts. for a specific purpose. W'e were pass- First part consists of the implementa- ing through a very peculiar situation tion of those points on which a gene- and there is a specific problem before ral consensus was arrived. Along with us. Due to the situation prevailing in this there is another aspect also and Punjab, some special decisions were that is giving weightage to the opinion to be taken. Now the commtmal pro- of the saints. There are a large num- blem has also cripping up with the ber of saints, religious leaders and same gravity. Just now I was listen- people deeply attached with them. mg the views expressed by some d Their wor^ car^ much weight and the, hon. Members. Since I come put enormous impact on people’s from Ayodhya and Faizabad in Uttar minds. T h o u ^ we have secular for- Pradesh, I would like to convey you ces to fight any eventuality emerging the sentiments of the people of Ayo- out of a possible confrontation, but dhya ffind Faizabad. Sir, since the day every effort should be made to pre- it was announced liiat Kar Seva vent the confrontation. That will st- would start at Ayodhya from 30th rengthen the secular faloic of out October, appidiensions and feaa have country. If a confrontation erf any gripped Uie minds of people, v i^b kind takes place, it may prove bene- IS quite natural. Why are the p ec^ ficial to one party and, raise its vote so ir^tened? Are tl^ going to bank and on the o&er hanKl it may th<^ landed property or were is some- prove harmful to the other parties and thing dse on account of wiiicli they decrease tibeir vote bank, but nottiing are perturbed. It is because of the t» certain. Eveivhody have fais own riots involving Hindus aii4 aritijmetic. While oae wiQ be gain* Muslims and of «t, [Sh. Mitia Sen Yadav] Janama Bhoomi Ke Kam Ka” and CI0I68 ot rupees. The honor of Uwse the other people who were standing riots is haunting in tiliek minds. This diere were shouting slogans ‘Bacha- is the reason why die people aie Bacha Ram Ka I%ir Jhagra Kis Kam concerned. Ka”. When these slogans were being raised the atmosphere there became tense and you have already explained Sir. just now Subhashini ji was what happened there after that. Mem- giving a vivid description of & situ- bers of minority community in vil- ation. We apprehrad no tiireat from lages were attacked in a pre-planned Shri Advani’s Rath Yatra. But I and organised way. If an inquiry is would like to remind him the manner conducted, you will come to know the in which Mahatma Gandhi carried motive behind these riots. on his Satyagrah. Let us take die instance of Chouri Chouta or any other incident which turned violent. Sir, the BJP people cannot deny Wherever any movement laundied by this fact that the riots are taking Mahatma Gandhi turned violent he place due to incitement of commu- withdrew it. Today, Shri Advani nal feelings. I would like to ask why should feel that his Rath Yatra is don’t you handover this matter to the creating a violent atmosphere in the local people? Many people from country and he should stop his Rath Faizabad are coming to meet Prime Yatra. If he thinks that his Rath Minister and President tomorrow Yatra is in the interest of the people, and they want to submit that why in the interest of 75 per cent people this matter is not being left to the of the country, what are the reasons people of Faizabad and Ayodhya? that these 75 per cent people have They will settle this matter themselves. apprehensions. Why people are fear- Why the people from outside are ing? Why riots are taking place at going there. The Hindus and Mus- Baroda. Udaipur. Kamailganj and lims of Ayodhya are coming here to South India? Is it that our BJP bro- ask Prime Minister and President that thers do not know about these riots? nobody is required to come to Ayo- He himself admitted that the proces- dhya. I would like to ask the mem- sion was passing through a very nar- bers of BJP that prayers are being row lane. But the factual thing is performed in Babri Masjid keeping this that that has never been the rout idols there since 1949. Muslims can of procession. {Interruptions) see their mosque from a distance of 200 metres only and cannot go near SHRI RAJVEER SINGH: Mr. it. Who is incidng Hindu G>mmunal Chairman, it was a Vijayadashami pro- feelings? Mosque is in your posses- cession. I would like to tell you that sion. you are offering prayers there. it was not at all Ram Janam Bhoomi You are getting votes and notes both. procession or Ram Jyothi procession. Even then ‘Yatras* are being held. It was a Dussehra procession which Who is responsible for all this? was being taken out to immerse idols as per the established traditions. Sir. actually you do not want to construct temple and you cannot construct the temple accotding to the SHRI MITRA SEN YADAV; map submitted by you even after de- Sir. I was saving that the procession molishing mosque. But as Mrs. Sub- was never allowed to pass dirough ha^ini Ali has said that mosque has that narrow lane. It used to pass become a symbol of our secularism. through a different route. The Ad- ministration ccnnmitted a big mistake allowing the procession to pass Sir, the Britishers incited com- tro u g h that narrow lane. The tMrti- munal feelings and there were riots cipants of the procession were jimoat- in Ayodhya m 1886. but leading per- ing slogans “Bacha Bacha Ram Ka, sonalities of Hindu-Mudim commu- 145 Discussion under ASVm A 13* 1912 (SAKA) Comnmai diaitifkmees 14« J t u k m in Gouda it UJ». A e l m ^ e dities. priests, maolveis sat together crtM'es of people of this ocnmtry. Tru- rad settled tliat Hiodu-MusUni con^ th caimot go unnoticed, it will defi- flict and decided that there will be a nitely come out It is our tespoailU* ‘Ram Qiabutra’ at one side of tito lity that we should not take sucli ao» boundry wall and mosque at the tions which may destroy the whole other side of that wall. When the coutitry. leaders of both the communities set- tled this dispute, they were hwged We have great respect for our lea- by the Britishers, ilnterruptkms) der Shri Advani, but we request him to find out some measures to save the country from breaking and com- SHRI PRAKASH KOKO BRA- munal passions. You say that you HMBHATT (Baroda): He is MP will not honour the verdict of the from Ayodhya, tell us what do the {Interrup court. You yomself went to the people of Ayodhya want? court in February, 1986 for opening tion^ the lock. It was unlocked on iirst or February when SP and DSP, gave SHRI KALKA DAS: The people undertaking that there will be no of Ayodhya caimot do this. {Inter riots. Why you honoured court ver- ruptions)...... dict at that time. Advani ji has said that reservation foi backward classes should not be implemented pending SHRI MITRA SEN YADAV: the verdict of Supreme Court. Why 1 am putting the historical facts of you are adopting double standards. 1886. Even today, if you go to Ayo- We request you to wait for the ver- dhya you will see a boundaiy wall dict of the court and should not re- there and ‘Ram Chabutia’ and mos- ^ort to any action which may lead to que on each side of that wall. This bloodshed. This is the responsibility was settled between Hindus and Mus- of all of us. Country cannot pro- lims in 1886 and the^ never clashed gress by constructing Mandir or Mas- with each other. Position remains the jid. Let us settle this matter amic- same even today. The leaders of the ably, this is what, we want to say communities who solved the dispute to you. were hanged on a tree, but the people started worshipping that tree and that DR. RAJENDRA KUMAR I BAJ- tree was cut down by Britishers. In PAI (Sitapur): Mr. Chairman. Sir. the history of Ayodhya no commu- Yesterday we visited Karnelganj with nal disharmony has never evoked. our colleagues. Our party president TUs is the greatness of Hindu-Mus- Shri Rajiv Gandhi and Bhagat ji, lim unity. Today also this harmony Akbar Saheb, myself and Tiwari ji, can be maintain^ these people who is the leader of opposition in does not incite relkious feelings. I Uttar Pradesh Lepislative Assembly, ask our friends of BJP, who is res- visited Karnelganj area. There we ponsible for creating these chaos in found huge loss of life and property. India? It is immaterial that where is Their houses have been burnt and the birthplace of Ram or Krishna. they have suffered heaw losses. We What concerns us is that we have to went in the villages also. People have save our modierland. We have to been mercilessly beaten and their protect our ooiuatry. I want to ap- houses ate burnt. The most dange* feal !)irottg}> M august house that rous thing that has happened is that k t the people of Faizabad and Ayo- the people have been burnt alive. dhya settle Ihetr d i^ te and do not The offidal figures are not cnrretft. m ^e Faizabad battlefield of politics Sometime they say that 35 pec^Ie and religious pasdon. Therefore, I have been kiSed, fometime say request the members of BJP, who are that fliis figure is 37 and sometime « sl^ng the power, that they sliould Is 70. Daily the new figures are be- folG! the expectations of l«^lis and ing ^en . Today the numhw is 400. 147 Discussion mder OCTOBER 5,1990 Commtml dtsturlmces 148 n u k m in G on^ in V.P. d elsewhere [Dr. Rajendra Kumari fiajpai] is not called ‘Bharat*. In ttte consU* tutiou we have naia<;d it ‘Bharat’ but The figures of rioL affected villages in every day language it is being oal> are also not correct. They say it is led Hindu.itan. At the time of lade* between 20 to 50. Bven the officers pendence and framing of Constitti* have not reached ihere. The previ- tion it was decided after much cott- ous officers have been transferred and sultau(M)s that it will be a secular the new officers have not joined their coun'vry and every person regardless duties. Violent incidents took placc of religious and faith will have the there, their houses, mosques were right to live here. Hveryone will be burnt and the children are dying due free to ha/e faith jn any religion and to hunger. We have come to know Governmciit will not have any inter- that some children are missing. Whe- ference in it. Thereiore, India was reabout of 500 per.'ons is not known. considered a secular couno7 but to- Their family members do not know day theri' are some parties in their whereabouts, in villages every- our countiy who are raisii.g a slogan body known about the number of of ‘Hindu Rashtra’ and we are being members of a family. Not a single taught the definition of secularism. house is intact there. £\en today the W'e are thj representativ'cs of the peo- houses are burning and ‘•moke is ple and we should say the public emitting out of them. that we a e secular. We have taken v^ath of the Constitution and this is The Government has not inade ironical that we talk i( gainst the any arrangement for the supply of Constitution and raise tli^ issue ot ration and other essential commodi- Hindu Rashtra. Nowtiere iu our Con- ties to the affected peopfu-. This all stitution it has been writter. lhat India happened in the four affecicd blocks will be a ‘Hindu Ra.shtra’ but today of Karnelganj. Why even after so tho-^e people are violating the provi- many years of Indep'endetice riots arc >ions of C'onstitution l>y raising the taking placc. Government has been slogan of Hindu Rashtra. The s tua- taking .steps to .stop these liots but tion is tense for the last three years. now it has been observed that tension Now a new thing has started. They has increased to a great extent in have startid ‘Rath Yatra’. Previously Uttar Pradesh and in other stales Vishwa Hindu Parishad v/as leading albo. While coming back from there BJP. At that time B.IP used to say I come to know that the riots has that it is a cultural organisation taken place in Pratapgarh a’so and 6 [Interruptions)..BJP is a political or 8 pcnsons have been kii;ed there. body. V shwa Hindu Parishad is Someone said that 10 persons have holding a conference of saints at AI- died. Ghazipur has a iso been affect- U'habad and Haridwar. They collec- ed by communal riots. During thc^e ted a huge fund, Shri Vishwabandhu months there have been tension in Gupta sa>'s that according to an In- every district of Uttar Pradesli. I am come Tax officer who was later trans- of the opinion that the time has come ferred from the Finance Minstry, they when we have to discuss in (his house have collected a fund of rupees 500 that to which direction we want to crore, which was utilised by BJP for take our country and what are the lighting elections. I do not want to forces behind these oommtmai tension gt in details but I have to say that... in our country. S?1RI RAJENDRA ACJNIHOTRT At the time of framing our consri- (Jhansi): Please give Kuffioient time tution we talked about secular India to us also so that we can give proper and laid foundation for it. Pakistan reply. {Jmerruptions) and Hindustan were created. Hon, member Atinder Pal Singh is very DR. RAJENtJRA KUMARI BAJ- much right when he says why th» PAl; VHP have spread communal country is called Hindustan. Why it hatred in the country. Then « 9 D tm ishH under ASVINA 13,1912 (SAKA) Cvnmnml dimrhtmces ISO R uh m in GonOa in UJ>. A elsewhere started Maadir-Masjid dispute. His- DR. RAJENDRA KUMARI BAJ* tory says that Bahri Mosque was PAl: 1 have an objection liecQtise constructed by Babar four or five I am also the follower of Ram aad hundred years ago. Now they say worship Lord Ram. 1 do not hate that it should be demolished. How pooja birt I hate you because you are CM you demand for the destruction fraudulent and have dubious chacac- Babri Mosque. There are lakhs ttr...(Interruptions) Mr. ChaitiiMUi. of mosques in this country, then why the best religion is to be a gjod they are demanding for the destruc- human. I just want to say that rdi- tion of this masque only. BJP has gion should not be linked with poli* come forward for deriving political tics and today BJP is doing the same benefit out of It and to have Hindu by linking religion with politics in the votes. In the middle of the elections name of Vishwa Hindu Parishad and iiity ...{Interruptions).. Sutbhashini this is the reason that the whole coun- Ali ji was reading the agreement, tiy is burning due to communal riots. We were not able to tell the people Therefore, today this is the need about that. But we said that it the hour to raise this matter throu^ should be postponed till the verdict this house that Janata Dal is running of the court comes and it should be its Government vy'ith the help of a acceptable to both the parties. But communal body. They should not meanwhile BJP declared ‘Shilanyas’ take their help, {tnterruptions) and ‘Kar Sewa’. Shankracharya ji built four temples in India—namely ‘Badrinath Dham’. ‘Puri Dham’, i • * • n ^ - Rameshwaram Temple and Dwarka- ^ communal riots m Uttar dhecsh. These all are tlie symbol of " K n f ' our country’s unity. These temples ? u , 5 ” ^ were not constructed by bringing bricks from all over the country or villages of our country. No ‘Kar ienston an the Sewa’ was done for these temples. OMeiruptions) This Main reason is that in the villages no- R«tli Yatra should stopped b ^ U K body knows BJP, they have not communal feel- done any service there. Iliis is the tension, party of urban baniyas. This « a party of rich people. They thought ^ they can arouse the Hindu sentiments Therefore. 1 would like to request and have their votes. They went from ministry that it should take stems village to village and carried ‘Ram Shilns’ to arouse the religious feelings thousands of innocent people of Hindus ... (Interruptions)... I w ^t ®®ve Uttar Pradesh and this coun- to stress on this because yesterday 1 ^ communal disharmony and have seen the results of communal politics of BJP which has spread com* munal hatred in the country and our Uttar Pradesh is burning due to that. SHRI YUVRAJ (Katihar); Mf. I want to ask whether any temple has Chairman, this House intends to di»> been buih by such measures. They cuss seriously the situation created by collected those ‘Shilas’ at Ayodhya communal riors. It is a matter of which are now lying there ...Inter- Sreat concern for all of us that instead niptiam) of communal hamony, there is coin* munal bitterness in the society today. viTxtk-ot TT » * t h a * ^ KUMARI UMA BHARATI (Kha<> whenever there are cotnnitt^ riois, jutaho): I Jjave an objectloa, you Administration treats it as a law an4 i^08diag thff bouse...order probjem and political and «xial w w ; arg i^atio n s feel tnat thdr dtify Is 151 Discussion under OCTOBER 5,1990 Communal distarbemoes 152 Rule 193 in Gonda in U.P. A elsewhere [Sh. Yuvraj] votes by fanning out rdigiou# fulfilled and they leave the entire res- of some particular community. Simi ponsibility cm the administration. As larly, in 1971 Joseph Vithyasis Com- a consequence of this the administra- mission said in 1971 that communa- tion is not able to into its root lism has crept into the miads of causes with the required promptness common members of secular demo- and efBciency. We have faiira in cratic parties. This is a harmful toi- eradicating all these lacunae and in dency which should stopped. maintaining unity and harmony among the people. Mr. Chairman, Sir, what was the result of all the judicial commissiom I want to mentiOT that Mr. Jinnah appointed so far? The people who propounded the two nations theory in distuib the communal harmony, are 1940, and in 1947 this country was not booked under the law. and when divided on communal basis. But time passes, we feel that every thing still the roots of communalism are has ended, but it is not so. On tiie very deep. What is the reason there- other hand the attempts of strenthen- for? My naive understanding is ing communal harmony are also stop- that when communal people concen- p SHRl RAM NAIK (Bombay The Prime Minister was about to North): Mr. Chairman, Sir, when undertake a goodwill visit to Punjab. we joined here as Members of Lok Today we have decided to postpone Sabha. we decided to function here the elections in Punjab for fur&er according to the religious doctrines, six months and no ‘yatra’ was under- and we took an oath to that efifect. taken. The purpose of this ‘yatra’ Above the Speaker’s Chair is written. was to meet the people there, and know their view point, and put across our ideas to them. But this ’yatra’ did not take {dace. ‘DHARMACHAKRAPRAVA- RTANAY” Advani Ji had made an announce- ment that he would begin his ‘Rath [Traw/atkfn] yatra’ on 25th September and it began on that day. He told why he under- We have come here to make a totdc this. We also want to tell you change accordingly. So, Mr. Chair- that there were two purposes of it. man, Sir, I am puttuig across my First, was to awaken the real cons- views on the basis of this very idea. ciousness of the nation and that real consciousness is associated with Lord A discussion on communal situa- Rama. Rama is the ‘Rashtra Purush’ tion and the riots is going on here, of this Nation, so the teachings of but instead of speaking on this sub- Rama should be spread everywhere. ject, the M en^rs are speaking some- thing else. In Marathi language, Secondly, pseudo-secularism i.e., there goes a saying: false secularism is being propagated. This ‘yatra’ was undertaken by Shri “Saanp-saanp mhanu doreela mara- Advani to tell the whole society as to yche” i.e.. call it a snake and kill the what is ‘Sarvadharma Sambhava’ and rope. Instead of killing the snake, he is telling this wherever he is goii^. kill the rope and call It a snake. Now the question is as to why tins There is no discussion about the riots, ‘yatra’ is to start from Somna^ Tem- instead Shri Advwdji’s rath-yatra ple? This is the important poipose which is gdbog on peac«fuOy and ot this ‘yatra’. Sonnath te ^ e hu, soKKXhfy is bciag discussed sad peo> a great significance in the h i s ^ ^ 155 D hctts^n under OCTOBER 5,1990 C otm m tl Osttirbmees IS6 Rule 193 in Gmda in V.F* elsewhere [Sh. Ram Naik] dents will definitely ial:e place there. But people welcomed Advaoiji’s Rath the country. Mohammad Gaznavi Yatra. No untoward incident had invaded the Somnath Tonple many a taken place ^ile passing Pune. time, dismantled the tem^e and des- Hiane and whole Maharashtra and troyed its property. Yow know that procession reached in Andhra Pradesh after tnd«^ndence. it was decided and was given hearty welcome. To diat temple will be reconstructed. say that since Advaniji is undertakmg Pandit lawahar Lai Nehru was the Rath Yatra. untoward incidents will Prime Mmister of the country and definitely take place is not conoct. It Sardar Vallabhbhai Patel was the is the creation of your mind only. Home Minister and Bairn Rajendra You are calling Advaniji’s Yatra as a Prasad was the President of the Nation ^ost or snake and are killing the at that time. The then caUnet had rc^. No untoward incident has decided that Somnath 'I'empic which taken place due to Advaniji’s Rath was turned into ruins should be re- Yatra. The people of aH communi- constructed. If Pt. Nehru had re- ties have welcomed it. The Muslim constructed it, it is not called cas- priest of a mosque in my area had tdsm. If Sardar Vallabbhai Patel come to welcome it..Xlntermptkms') had done so as Home Minister or It is being wekomed by all. This is President of the country. Dr. Rajen- the feeling in the entire country that dra Prasad had offered prayer there, Rama is the ‘Maha Purush’ (great they are not called communal. But man) of our country. Only this feel- if Advaniji goes on Yatra... (Inter- ruptiora) ing can bring consiousness in the How the reconstruction of country. Somnath Temple had been started in 1950? Today the meaning of words are being changed. Today if I say Riots took place in Uttar Pradesh. that I am a Hindu, I will be called The Chirf Minister of Uttar Pradesh communal and if another one says is making repeated inciting state- that he is a Oiristian, he will be ments. Hon. Prime Minister is not called religious. In fact, being present here and I would like to urge Hindu we feel proud our religion, if the hon. Home Minister to ask Shri we express ourselves in this way we Mulayam Sin^ji to observe restraint. are called communal. In mv view I am quoting his statement appeared it is not real secularism and there is in Hindustan Times. a need to diange it. With this m view the idea which was conceived \En^ish\ of independent India has not come “The Chief Minister said that true even after 40 years and we went those who today sj^k of Himlu astrayed. If the country is to be retJuilt. a feeling which was generat- Dharma or Hinduism, actually ed at the time of construction of Saro- eat meat, drink liquor and dance nath Temple, should again be gene- in the name of Bajrang Dal”. rated. Therefore, tWs Yatra has [Trtmslation] been started from Somnath Temple. When Yatra of Shii Advaniji was ...... {1ntarupti A ow , I have photo^rapbs of that SHRI RAM NAIK: This is Hi» n [ E i^ h ] seveial times before we undertake such yatras to the detriment of peo* SHRI A. K. ROY (JDihanbadi): Sk, pie’s benefits. Tell me, what for whea the hon. Member is speaking, these yatras? Whom would these the Minister should at least listen to benefit? it. He is not using his headi^one. This shows the scant respect which tht^r Sir. the peaceful revolution and non- are showing to our speeches. It is violent movwnent of Mahatmaji are as if we are doing sume ritual here. still venerated and widely acclaimed You kindly understand the speeches by the i^ le all over the world. made. Use your headphones. Act- But, this nation which gave birth ually the Home Minister should listen. to the Mahatma is bleeding. 400 in- But they are all gossiping. It is a nocent lives have been lost in Uttar disgrace. Are they understanding Pradesh. Members who spoke be- the speech? ...{Interruptions) ... fore me pointed out this. THE MINISTER OF SURFACE Hon. Leader Rajivji is undertaking TRANSPORT (SHRI K. P. UNNI- a yatra. Hon. BJP leader Shri L.K. KRISHNAN): I am listening. Advani is leading another yatra. This SHRI A. K. ROY: 1 do not know is the time when several lakhs of which Minister you are. You are Indians are stranded in the gulf. The the Minister for Surface Trans^rt. situation there is explosive and several But actually, 1 want the Home Minis- persons of our ethnicity are literally ter to listen to the speech....(Interrup- starving. There is condemnable tiom)... bloodshed in Punjab. Kashmir and Assam. Then what for this yatra? THE MINISTER OF HNANCE For Ramjanam Bhoomi? Where is (PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE): Ram? Is He not in our hearts? Even following the speeches is a Allah is in our hearts. Jesus too is collective responsiUlity. He is in our hearts. One member very following the speech.... {Interruptions). eloquently spoke about secularism. He tried to define it in a newer way. [T rmsUaionl 1 listened to it veiy carefully. You ♦SHRI K.M.R. JANARDHANAN: come to Tamil Nadu. There is a We would not have so easily forgotten dargah at Nagore. Hindus. Mus- the Naokali yatra undertake by lims and Christians go to that Dargah Mahatma Gandhi. When the sub- to offer prayer. There is alsc» the continent was partitioned into India Velanganni Temple, a Church. and Pakistan. Mahatma Gandhi Hindus. Qiristians and Muslims re- undertook the yatra. Even Mao-Tse- gardless of their religious allegiance Tung undertook a yatra in Qiina. go to that church and worship Mary Since several members here speak in Mata. Hindi, I take pride in speaking in my mother tongue Tamil ♦•SHRI GOVINDA CHANDRA MUNDA (Keonjhar): Mr. Chair- Sir, those were the yatras undertaken man. Sir, I have a point of order. by men of great stature who wanted to build India. Today, in an era when [English] men are aible to land on the moon, in MR. CHAIRMAN; What is your this modem era of science and develop- point oi order? ment, a few people are undertaking [Tr(mslation\ yatras for ob^urantist objectives. We are sitting here after securing the votes ••SHRI GOVINDA CHANDRA of the poor public. We should, there- MUNDA: Sir. die Ho d . Member is fore, ponder over twice, thrice and speaking in his mother tongue. •Trsndation of speech originally ddivered in Tamil. ••Translation of submission origioany made in Oriya. 161 Dbcmion wider ASVINA13,1912 {SAKA) Communal disturbances 1 ^ g fje 193 in Gonda in VJ?. St elsewhere Tamil. He is abk to esptess his Katehi (PMK) leader Dr. Ramdoss views clearly because he is speaking has given a call for gheroeing the Om* in his mother tongue. There is no gress and AlADMK Members of need of giving detailed description or Parlament and the Tamil Nadu As- what is happening in the country. If sembly for having supposedly c^ipos* I in Oriya, I can also make a ed the Mandal Commission’s rec(Hn- speech. Sir. can i be allowed to mendations. The truth is that we speak in my mother tongue Oriya? supported and we will support the Mandal Commission’s recommenda- •SHRl K.M.R. JANARDHANAN: tions to the hilt and let there be no Sir, we are speaking to the nation doubts about it. This threat of Dr. from this sui>remc forum. Shiva is Ramdoss is sought to be executed also our principal diety as Ram. with the active connivance of the Where is Shiva? He is in Kailash. National Front partn^ Government Where is it? Can you go to Kailash in the State under the Chief Mmister- to sec Shiva? Therefore, the fact ship of Mr. Karunanidhi for cheap is. search your hearts. There you political gains. There is going to will find Ram. Shiva and all other be a rally on October b. They have gods. given a call for the Aryans to quit India. What are the serious impli- 1 am therefore with utter shame cations of this call? ITiey are play- express my disdain over the manner ing with the sentiment of the pe^le. in which we develop internecine quar- Tamil Nadu which has been relatively rels over religious matters. We are yet calm all throu:^ the years since tiie to develop a nation holding together various religious groups in the spirit days of Congress and smce the days of Anna is fast slipping into commu- of religious tolerance and communal nal tensions under the leadership of amity. your partner Karunanidhi. Sir. we learn from newspapers that Let me lastly reiterate that 1 may the Imum of Delhi and the Kanchi Kamakoti Sankarachari have resolved belong to any political party, while to end this Ramjanam Bhoomi dis- I owe true and faultless allcgiaaceto my political party, I do not have any pute. We should rise above all party considerations, and welcome their bounden duty to defend my religion efforts. As politicians, first we must to which I belong. That task is [Sh. Ram Krishan Yadav] pute among people of the difitetttit coonmunities. The dispute Js being secularism is very essentW. ^ Bat oa created by outside elements. Such one side we talk about bringing socia* slogans have been written on walls Usm and stmigthening the democracy there:— and secularism in our country, but I regret, on the other skie we have “Hindu Hindi Hindustan, Keha doubts about proper functioning of Se Aye Mtisalman, secularism and democracy in our coun- try. Today, I regret to say that the Maro Inki Jan, Nahi To Bhejo people of our country are discussing Pakistan”. in tms House as to whether secularism will survive in the country or not what It has also been written;— to talk of bringing socialism. I would “Babar Ki Santano Ko Ek Dhakka like to say that it is not possible till Aur Do” democracy, secularism and socialism are strengthened in this country. It is very painful to say that today the poli- others slogans are: tical. economic, social and cultural “fieti Hai Sardar Ki. Desh Ke powers have gone into the hands of Gaddar Ki” those people, who have no faith in democracy, secularism and socialism Who is writing all this? I would and these people are creating distur- like to say that the people who are bances in the entire country. On the struggling here are call^ terrorists. one hand poor farmers of the country, Our brother Shri Atinder Palii labourers, wage earners are struggling is also called a terrorist. It is hard to get basic needs like bread, being said that the people of cloth, shelter with respect and honour Kashmir are working for the disinte- whereas on the other hand, all these gration of the country. I can say with powers are creating an atmosphere in challenge that there is no danger to the country to divert the attention of the country from Shri Atinder Pal the people from these problems. Singh and the terrorists of Kashmir Mr. Chairman, Sir. when Parliament but country is having more danger has taken a decision about Mandal from the people who are writing such Commission in order to bring social slogans: changes so that backward, poor ex- “Hindu Hindi Hindustan. Kaha ploited and suppressed people can be Se Aye Mu&alman, given their due, incidents of self-immo- laticm have started taking place. Agi- Maro Inki Jan, Nahi To Bhejo tations are going on and ‘Rath Yatras’ Pakistan” and and ‘Sadbhavana Yatras’ are being undertaken. It is totally a conspiracy “Garv Se Kaho Hum Hindu so that poor people, farmers, labourers Hain”. and employees are not able to know about tneh- moral and social ri^ts I know it and I would also like to and their attention is diverted to other challenge them. The Jaga^nl matters. Today, I want to tell you Shankaracharya was arrested in my t^ t now political and social aware- hometown Pnoolpur. These peoi^ ness is coming up among poor, far- must have been presuming that the mers and labourers in this country. arrest of Shankaracharya will create Mr. Chairman. Sir, I come from the law and order piobl«n, but on the aiea which is adjacent to Ayodhya. contrary when he was arrested not Gonda is adjacent to my constituency. even a single his {olk>w«» soocan- I know about the situation there. )anied him, even those who were Ayodhya, Faizabad, Azamgarh are «im also fled away. P e o i^ c i that such districts where there is no dis* area have a firm faidi k secularism. 165 mseusshttuti^r ASVINA 13,1912 Communal dim rbM eeif J^tle 193 ^ Qondtt in U^F. 4k elsewhere Tlje fact that no one followed Shan* oneness will develop in die cottaticy. karacharya at th^ time of'his arrest With these words I condude, reveals the secularistic culture of liie people, [English] SHRI T. BASHEER (Oiitayinka>: Mr. Chairman. Sir. 1 consider the With great iuiguish and agony we are ‘Rath Yatra’ of Shri Advaoi equal to discussing the communal situatkm la an ‘Ashwamegh Yagya* but this the country. My colleagues have al- Ashwamegh Yagya will not histigate ready spoken and they have made so the peo{de because that land is t o ^ y many important points here. I do not secular. People of Ayodhya, Paiza* want to repeat tnem. This is a very bad. Behdach and Gonda can nevCT serious subject. be provoked provided there is no out- side interference. My submission is Three days back, you may remeata- that when the need of the hour is to ber October 2 was the Gandhi Jayanti provide food, clothes, shelter and a day and we saw what hai^pened in decent life to the people and to make the Cai»tal of this country on' ^ this conntry a great nation we should October, 1990. This is the country not involve ourselves in futile discus- of Mahatma Gandhi, an Apostle of sion on religious fanaticism. It would Ahimsa. Every day. we are receiving be a matter of great shame for us. reports on communal tension, arson Therefore I would like to submit that and other incidents from different fanatics in the country are posing a parts of the country. As my frioids threat to the country. It is true that said, when we were celebrating Inde- there is a wide difference between o u r pendence of this country, our Rashtra- words and deeds what we say in the pita, Mahatma Gandhi was not here. Parliament is not followed up outside. The frail old man was in Noukhali. The Members of BJP are adopting travelling barefoot, meeting men and double standards. They say one thing women who bore the scars of commu- in the House and other outside. Either nal agony and the people who inflict- they should clearly declare that they ed the wounds. are not for a ‘Hindu Rashtra’ but on the contrary they are raising slogans We should hang our heads in shame of Hinduism in various parts of the that even after four decades of inde- country. Therefore my submission to pendence, still these kinds of incidents the BJP is if they are honest they are happening in our country again should stick to their words inside and and again. Our senior colleagues in- outside the House. Sheer raisini; cluding Bhagatji described here what slogans will do not be of any use. It happened and what they had witness- will not benefit the country. They ed m Gonda IMstrict. In this area, the TX>se as they are the great nationalists tension is mounting up- 1 think in but to have a strong nation an the teli- India die majority of die communities, pions and the places of worship whe- both Hindu and Muslim, like com* ther it is the temple, tfie mosque, the munal harmony. They want to live in church should be g^en due respect. peace. But a small section of these Each citizen has to ccmtribute in build- communities are resptmsible HdB hig the natk»i. All Ithose forces—whe- flare up and for diis communal toa- ther in ttie shape of a poUtkal party sion. We all belong to some respcn- or an individual—who want to push sible political narties and we ai« all back secularism, democracy or socia- Members of Parliament. When we lism, are actually traitors ami it is oar discuss this matter we should fiitt fbremost duty to fight against tiiese understand that the political parties forces. I therefoie urge aD the poH« have a responsibility. Whenever we tical leaders to tmiie in order to sttengh discuss these matters in dtis Hoote t then ^m ocracy, secnlailBia 9 m remmbw tlsit many letuned eollw* ^ tiien tbe of {pues said about die code of opodiict 167 Discussion under OCTOBER S. 1990 Commmal disturbtmces 168 Rule m in Gonda in U,P. & elsewhere [Sh. T. Basheer] Many times in this House we ttlked for political parties. But it is unfor- about the restructuring of the and the para-military forces. 1 do not tunate that now some political parties take the initiative to exploit the com* want to go into the details. Evety- munal passions and the situation that body knows that the oompositioa we have reached now is the creation Police and para-military forces in tiiis of their attitude. You know it; I do country does not reflect the real chara- not want to elaborate it. cter of the society. The representa* tions from various communities, es- pecially minority communities, are We have been discussing in this insufficient and on this point every- House and outside about the mixing body agreed in the past also whenever of politics with religion. But now we discussed in this House. Our what is hap^ning is that religion is Prime Minister said that the Mandd the only basis for some parties, for Commission recommendations are not their political activity. That becomes applicable to Police. Armed Forces a dangerous proposition. I do not and Army. I would urge upon die think it is only a law and order jno* Govemmmt to implement the Mandal Mem. There should be a people’s Commission recommmdations in those activity. The political parties should E)epartments also. This is one of the take an initiative for peace and the major points of our Fifteen Point people should be educated. Whose Programme. responsible is fliis? I think the politi- cal parties are responsible for this task. Sir. many friends from the BJP Whenever this happens, everybody talked about many things. Please do knows that the poor people are afiFect- not shut your eyes. If you open your ed. Tf you see the incidents of Gonda eyes and see the factual position, then district or somewhere else, it is the it will be helpful. poor people who are affected, not the rich people. The ones who instigate are never affected. They are never SHRI NANI BHATTACHARYA affected. So. these people are used by (Berhampore): Mr. Chairman. I this communal forces for this purpose. would dilate on those problems which I do not want to take more time of have already been mentioned by the the House. other Members of this House. I would like to give my contention. I would like to contend that the inci- Some hon. friends have expressed dents of communal violence has in- concern about the PAC. In all this creased so much and it has engulfed kind of riots the behaviour of the PAC several States resulting in killing of was criticised. But I should like to innocent persons, destruction of public say that this Government and the pre- properties and the little hamlets of the vious Government also, did not serious- poor persons, causing tremendous loss ly look into the matter and the con- to the common people. Then, as the duct and behaviour of the PAC in communal tensions are alarminj^y such incidents or situations. Tnside growing, the entire atmosphere is being ■and also outside the House there has vitiated and the divisive forces, funda- been a talk about the 15-point pro- mentalist forces, are taking advantage gramme. But now when we discuss of the situation to further aggravate this subject in this House today, no- the problems. At the top of it. the body mentioned it. So. we are con- immediate problem is, as you know, veniently forgetting those points. T centres around the Ram Janam would like to plead with the Govern- Bhoomi—Babri Masjid problem. W iat ment that all those steps—mentioned shall we do? That is the toain i»o- in those points—should be taken and blem. We must take some Iw g range the Gnvermnent should implwnent programme and at the same m that 15-Point Programme. must see that this comnranal problem 169 Discusston mder ASVINA IS, 1912 (SAKA) Coammnd Usturbmces 170 Jtii/e m in Gomh in U.P. 4k Hs0wkert does not aggravate furflter, and thic took lives of hundreds of poor persoos. Babri Masjid—Ram Janam Bhootni That is why, the ioteo^ may be issue is settlied s Janata Da! two penons s^ke. We There are some hopes and as{Hfatiofw, have to give an oppcHtumty to all some awareness of the rights for the parties. Thwi, afterwards, we will minorities. Ther^ore, it is the mino- giw you also aa opportunity, if you ritism of the Government which is are *o interested. {Imemtptiom. I responsiUe for the «owth of com- am not dwiying that. {Intarmptiom). munal disharmony in ow country. It is not like that Qnterruptions}. They also say that it ia the policy of First, we have to hear even the small appeasement of the minorities that has parties. Then, afterwards, we will given rise to this communal monster. give yon an opportunity. First one or I think it is unthinkaUe. Minorities two rounds will go lilae that. Then, are minorities. It is the responsibility afterwards, we will try to accontmo- of the majori^ community to provide date all the other small groups. safety, security and identity to the minorities if we are to mnain as the dvilised and imited India. According SHRI CHITTA BASU (Barasat): to them, when I say in fovour of mino- Sir, I think it is needless at this stage rities or when I say in favour of secu- to emphasise upon Parliament today larism. they consider secularism as an for the need of promoting communal instrument of providing all the safe- harmony. Communalism today poses guards to the minorities. It is the the gravest possible threat to the unity, most narrowest explanation and it is integrity and 1 would say even to the the narrowest approach. This concept independence of the country. There- of minoritism or this very ccmcept of fore, I feel that there should be an in- appeasement of minority inflames the depth study or an in-depth analysis of majority aggressive communalism. the reasons for this growth and spread That is the grave danger, that is the big of the monster of communalism in our danger today which the House should country. Time does not permit me to take into consideration. go into deep analysis of the problem. But, certainly, I would like to mention one or two pomts which I think the BJP feels that the secularism is an House will take into consideration. A instrument of protecting the minori- ties. particularly the Muslims. As I process has been started for the ero- sion of secularism in our country. This was telling, this is the pervert asper- sion of la philosopher. This is not but process of erosion must be halted a narrow understanding of Indian cul- here and now. If that process is not ture. This is not but a sectarian, and arrested, I think the country is bound if you permit me to say, pernicious to be divided and we shall lose the theory which will divide our country India which we have fought for and into several parts. I would appeal to which we dream for even today. them that if they really wanted India united, a glorious, a prospeious. a Secularism is the basic foundation strong India, they should also revise of tile nationhood of Indi>a if we really their understanding in this respect. want to attain the nationhood. It is the basic philosophy of our country. Something has beto said about It is the basic direction of our history. Rath Yatra. I quote from Mr. It is the basic <^hoot of oin: culture. Advani. He is a Rig^t &on. Member I am vny much sorry to say tiiat of this House. He is a respected some people say that this is NaScli. I Member and particularly myself. I do not know what is really meant by hold him in nigh esteem. I would Nt^H Dkarm Niripekshata. I ^ r m quote him so that the House can Niripekshata is one. It is defined, it understand what the object of (he is very clear and it is very candid. I Roth Yatra is. This is ffl lejaid to tiiink my B/P friwids wouM be very the dispute of Ram Jmm BhtxmS and mudi' ^ to hear this. We hear that BtAri M ai^. With yonr p«misaioa. tin greatest dangca* is the minorhism. I quote. Sir; “A court Of law can 173 IHsemskm m A r A SV IN A 13, i9I2 (SAJU) Cmmewimitlbmm 174 M e m inG^ndainV^.it elsewhere ■ettie issaes of title, t r e s e s . pos«M> which is cmly RSS b a ( ^ by ik t BJP. [Sh. Sultan Salahuddin Owaisi] Conference as well as at other p V fs our patience has drained out. we have .“ S t k tolerated a lot but we are not ready represented to suffer any more. Afterall who gave permission for ‘Shila-Puja’ and now who is allowing this ‘Rath Yatra’. p_ ,, You have given the permission then for what purpose we are here, just , to hear the speeches? Speeches are Gandhi, you are a Hindu leader. being made on secularism and on mistaken when you say that peace. But the question is what had represent India or the masses of been happening during the last 43 India”. years, the entire world is aware of it. Therefore 1 would only submit that if you really have sympathy for ranshttion] the minorities, this ‘Rath Yatra’ should be s to p i^ immediately. This has been our bad luck. Mr. What is the motive of this pro- Chairman, Sir, you may recollect that cession, when is it starting, per- the country was divided at that time haps it would reach Ayodhya on on the plea that two communities were 28th or 29th and on 30th the break- unable to carry on peacefully with ing of the building will start. Inspito each other any more. Today, it is be- of all this it is being said that this ing said how a small percentage of Rath Yatra is for restoring peace, people can manage riots in the coun- Are you only the wise people? Hdw try. They were in minority at that long these things will continue. I'hey time also. We cannot forget those should specify their policy openly, days when bloodshed was caused in Do you think this kind of talk and Calcutta at the instigation of Sohra- behaviour will bring you to the fore- wardi and Jinnah spread the fire of front. But this is the policy which hatred in the entire country. As a has brought about revolt and in- result, even Mahatma Gandhi, who surgency in every part of the country, used to say that he will not let the which is evident in the form of country divided, even if his body is Naxalitcs in Andhra, happening in cut into pieces, had to yield. But I Punjab. Nagaland and Kashmir. It submit that at present the country is the reaction of the excesses com- has become strong and vigilant. Now m itt^ on people which forced them that weakness is not there in the to rise. Remember the day the shrine country. Those who want to play is destroyed the country will be divid- games with the country should know ed. that instead of weakness, this country CHRT rTTX/TAM VTAT T r»TMJA become strong, awakened /n LODHA and organised and it has achieved (Pah); Mr. Chairman, Sir, some of national unity and integrity It is the spewhes made here, were aimed being repeatedly said that this issue at creatmg communal harmony and should be decided through court I some of them were to incite cpmmu- would like to submit only one point, n a t a . I would like to say that we Firstly, I would like to ask ftom ^ose should ta ^ a lesson from the past people, who say that the issue should lustory. Today, people are roalang be solved through court, what brfia- long speechw and are laying that they viour was meted out to Justice Pan- were tern here and they will die dey. who ordered opening of the lock ^ of Ram Janam Bh read out here those sentences, of Shri entire country? Was it the BIP, the Mulayam Singh. The four Chief RSS or the VHP, who opposed the Justices of Allahabad High Court, verdict? Who revolted openly before one after the other, including Justice the Supreme' Court? Once, a person Mukherjee and Justice Agrawal, had filed a writ petition in the Calcutta recomnicnded promotion of Justice High Court that there are some objec- Pandey from the posts of district tionable things written in the Quran. Judjge to the Judge of High Court. But But the Calcutta High Court was Shn Mulayam Singh Yadav wrote gheraoed and it was said that no that though Justice Pandey is a judi- court is competent to pass any judge- cious, honest and devoted judge, he ment on their Quran? Why no court created communal tension by ordering can pass any judgement on Quran? opening of the lock of Ram Janam Who had gheraoed the court? Then Bhoomi in 1986. Therefore, he can- on what basis do you say that a court not recommend his name. These were can pass judgement on the issue of me words of Shri Mulayam Singh Janam Bhoomi of Lord Rama. Just ^ d a v , Mr. Chairman, Sir, I would now an hon. Member from Calcutta like to ask the hon. Members from was speaking here about the Eastern both ^ sides, who were suggesting Garden Murder case. A person, who courts decision, as to who will give was attached to the Deputy Speaker an impartial judgement, when such there, was murdered. The Calcutta things n wntten by Shri Mulayam High Court issued an order to do the Smgh Yadav. Mr. Chairman, Sir, post-mortem of the body after digg- if a judge IS punished, only because ing it out from the grave. The Calcutta he has order^ to open the locks of High Court was gheraoed and it was Ram Janam Bhoomi, no other judge said that in their religion, post-mortem would say that this is Ram Janam cannot be carried out on a dead body Bhoomi and once upon a time Babar after digging it from the grave. No attacked this place and tried to con- weight is given to the judgement of mosque, but he failed, so there the court there and here it is said snould be no obf^tion in ordering that the verdict given by the court for resurrection of the Ram Janam should be accepted. Bhoomi temple. On the day, the Ais House opposed all these things. Today, he Is in Janta Dal and sits in rFnaiiM this House in the capacity of a Mini- n T L the decision We differ with the wisdom of tht of the Supreme Court, burnt the copies Supreme Court. of the juds;emcnt and efRaies of the Supreme Court judges. Today, those [Trans/arionl very people are sayinj? that we are to a«ept the raurt-verdict. Mr. There you differ with the wisdom of ^ the Supreme Court and here yon say opra the locks of Ram Janam Bhoomi. that the issue should be decided who provoked inolence in Kashmir, through the Supreme Court. I would two contradictoiy statements are l4ing made. Thos? protested against the decision m the who had never accepted th« verdict 183 Discussion under OCTOBER 5, 1990 ConanunaJ disturbances 184. Rule 193 in Gonda in U.P. A elsewhere fSh. Guman Mai Lodha] a court at any time? In this regard, Shri Maithili-sharan Gupta had even of the Supreme Court, today sfay that said that— the issue should be solved through the Supreme Court. “Ram kya tum manav ho, yadi turn Sir, just now, our Communist friend manav ho. was saying that Shri Advani is not to main nirishwar hun. Ram tum accepting the decision of the Supreme muzhe khyma kama. Court. I would like to ask him, is it not a fact that Shri Namboodripad Kya mein tumhe ishwar samjhta hun” had once said that all these courts and the judges are a biased class and Shri Hidayatullah had punched him Are such mythological thin^, fu for contempt of court that he had no where and how God, the Christ and faith in the court. Was it not that the Prophet Mohammad were bom, the decision of the Supreme Court can be decided through courts. What regarding the Bank Nationalisation proof can be wven about a birth case and Privy Purses case was openly place dating ba« to one crore and challenged and it was said that they eightyseven lakh years whether any do not accept this decision as these record is going to be found there re- courts belong to the capitalist society? lating to a corporation. Panchayat or Do the Congress people today has settlement? This is impossible. the courage to say that the decision of the court should be accepted? They Sir, it is recorded in the Guiness promoted Justice Ray to the post of Book of World Records that a case Chief Justice by superseding three filed in the year 1205, regarding the judges—Justice Shelat, Justice Grover issue that who is eligible to preside and Justice Hegde. He gave verdict in over the religious congregations and favour of the executive. Justice Beg religious places, was finally decided was promoted by superseding Justice by a Poona judge in 1966. The case Khanna. Justice Khanna had obser- was decided after a period of 761 ved that a person bom in this country years and now there will be appeal, had the right to life. Article 21 and revision and review of the judgement Article 22 may not permit it. He said also. 40 years have passed since this that he had difference of opinion with case of Ram Janam Bhoomi was filed, the decision .civen in the case of the not a single witness has appeared be- Shivkanth that a person’s right to life bore the court till now. 1 myself went is abrogated during emergency. That to the Lucknow High Court. When is why. justice Khanna was supersed- not a single witness has appeared be- ed. fore the court in the last 40 years, this case cannot be decided even upto Mr. Chairman, Sir. those people 25th century or for 500-700 years. who changed the decision of Justice Is Shri Vishwanath Pratao Singh and Jagmohan Sinha on the election-peti- Shri Mulayam Singh Yadav, who tell tion of Shrimati Tndira Gandhi over- us to accept the decision of the court, night by nraking a law in the Parlia- will be there for 500 years to see the ment, ask us today to accept decision judgement? Mr. Chairman. Sir, only of the court. When the verdict of to deceive the public, it is being said the court is not in their favour, they that the issue should be solved through will show disrespect and hum the court. Tliey themselves do not have conies of the judgement and when it any faith in the courts or has always is in their favour, only then they will superseded the judges for their own accept it? benefit. The Supreme Court did not uphold prayer of a jud^ of Kama* Mr. Chairman. Sir, I would like to taka, because he had rejected the writ know whether we can have faith in petition challenging the validity dt 185 Discussion under ASVINA 13,1912 (SAKA) Communal disturbances 186 Rule 193 in Gonda in U,P, A' elsewhere Kuldip Singh Commission to favour broke out. Why? What was the reason Hegde. Thejse are the gloring exam- behind it. The reason is this that ples. Kuldip Singh Commission found Shri Mulayam Singh made provoca- Shri Hegde guilty of misconduct. tive speeches and used abusive lan- First, a writ petition was filed that the guage. Violence erupted. Advaniji is commission should be quashed. But touring the entire country but no inci- one of the Chief Justices there rejected dent of violence has been reported on the petition. His name come here also account of hi *R‘Hh Yatia’. I would and it was given by the Chief Justice like to know from the })2ople who of the Supreme Court but the present are blaming Advaniji for inciting Government refused to accept it. How violence about the eiemenls who were will they accept the iud^^ement given responsible for upiooting lakhs of by a court or how a court will be able Hindus from Kashmir. Did Advaniji’s to give an impartial verdict? There- rath touched Kashmir? Who were the fore, I would like to submit that only people who forced lakhs of Hindus to mislead the masses, it is being said to leave Pakistan? W1 o ruineJ their that the issue should be decided families? Who were responsible for through court. The masses of our tuning our mothers widov^s and our country are clearly saying that there sisters children? Did Advaniji’s rath is no mosque at the siu of Ram go there? Did Advaniji's rath go to Janam Bhoomi. You can come with Nauharwali and Chauri Chaura. The me and see the place yourself For people who are protesting against centuries, no ‘namaz’ has being offer- Advaniji’s rath are actually doing so ed there and there is no well for doing out of malice. Any work done with ‘VAZUH’. There are no signs^ of a mutual goodwill is alv/ays welcome. mosque there, but this question is But by making pretenses and using raised just to make it a dispute. When judiciary as a shield fio^e who want the Hon. Prime Minister asked for to make sure that the wo k relating four months time, on behalf of the to Ram Janma Bhoomi is not carried Vishwa Hindu Parishad and the Ram out on 30th, I want to tell tJiem that it Janam Bhoomi trust, 1 met him. has been resolved by the entire nation that tho renovation and construc- tion work of the temple will be done without fail. If they are Four months’ time was given with a view to solve the problem through opposed to the solgan “Bachcha negotiations. If a settlement can be Bachcha Ram Ka” then I would like reached through negotiations, no one to question them whether instead of will object to it. But what happened Ayodhya. a temple of Ram will be after four months? The situation has built in Mecca & Madina. Whether remained unchanged even after a the temple of Ram should be constmc- lapse of four months and another four ted in Sri Lanka or London? Ayodhya months have passed since then. There is situated on the bank of river Saryu i^ a feeling of resentment regarding since thousands and lakli^ of years. the ‘Rath Yatra’ undertaken by But I regret to say thjf it is being said Advaniji. The Uttar Piadesh Chief only to divert the attenJion of the peo- Minister, Shri Mulay;»m Singh Yadav ple from the real issue. As such I is organising rallies at several places. would like to say in very clear terms I would like to say one thing. When 1 that Advaniji’s Rat’i be^n wrongly was in Bombay, the chairot of alleged to have incited violence that Advanifi passed through Cotton ex- broke out at a placc in Uttar Pn-desh change and Boriyali, Thousands of and concocted stories have been male reop'e gathered to witness it, but in this rc5?''ri ani we would like untoward incident was reported from to refute the «aid aVci tiors. I would any of the said areas. But after four further like to stale in very unambi- days, whcii Shri Mulayam Singh guous terms that we are prepared to Yaiav visited those areas, violence welcome all those who wish to join 13-^2 LSS/ND/91 187 Discussion under OCTOBER 5,1990 Communal disturbances 188 Rule 193 in Gonda in U.P. d elsewhere |Sh. Guman Mai Lodha] [TransUxtion\ the national mainstream. But anti- SHRI R. N. RAKESH (Chail): Mr. national elements will not be allowed Chairman, Sir, in the land of to raise their ugly heads to spread Mahatma Gandhi it is very unfortu- violence and make Kashmir or any nate that we have to discuss the issue other State for that matter a trouble of communalism. Some people are tom State. The conditions have radi- advocating the cause of masjid where- cally changed since J947 when there as some that of mandir while no one was weakness everywhere. Tcduy the is concerned about humanity. We are country is in the hands of strong and discussing the incident which took place firm leaders like Sarvashri Vajpayee. in Gonda district in the guise of com- Lai Krishna Advani and Bala Saheb munalism. As per the facts known to Dcoras. No one will tolerate any ele- us, a Mushcura was going on in a ment causing harm to the nation. The public place at Kamalganj on the 29th country shall remain integrated and of last month and some people went forge ahead with conviction and to attend the same. Thereafter, on the the image of our country in the inter- 30th during the Durga Puja procession national forum will be brighter. The it is alleged that some unidentified anti national elements who will cause persons threw a hand bomb from an hinderances will be dealt with firmly. unknown direction on them and conse- quently violence broke out in that re- [English] gion. Some people raised provocative slogans. One of the two violence affl- MR. CHAIRMAN: Now. Shri icted persons, namely Maulana Rakesh. Jafrur came to inform me how slogans were raised there. In the Durga Puja procession no Bh'ijans were bein • SHRI RAMESH CHENNITHALA sung, no son? related to the deity (Kottayam): Sir, before his speech, I would like to say something. Just Durga was being sung and the great- ness of tiie Goddess was not being des- now, we have got some news. There is a virtual revolt in Tihar jail. Nine cribed. The slogans raised on the oc- people were killed and about 130 peo- casion of Durga Puja were “Kahan ple have been injured. The doctors Gavi Babar ki Santan. Kya ban gayi are on strike Kabristan” and ‘ Suno Suno Ka'i'on ki Santan. bhag Jao Pakistan" MR. CHAIRMAN: No, I am not SHRI KALKA DAS: Yo i first allowing you. mention their names of those people (Interruptions) who have been arrested by the gov emment. {Interruptions) SHRI RAMESH CHENNI- SHRI R. N. RAKESH: I am not THALA; Sir, the Home Minister is naming tiMse persons who gave these here and we wanted to know the slogans. Unterruptiom) Mr Chairman, actual position. {Interruptions} Sir, please allow me to say what I want to say. MR. CHAIRMAN: You can raise SHRI KALKA DAS: The names it when you get the opportunity. Not of those who were arrested are Yawar now. Now. Shri Rakesh may speak. Hussain and Khaliki. {Interruptions) (Iraerruptions) SHRI R. N. RAKESH: Thereafter, SHRI RAMESH CHENNITHA- the situation worsened. It was f ’llow- LA: Let him give the information. ed by the outbreak of violence on the .ih’e.i w'l 1st which spread bevond the city to 189 Discussion under ASV1NA13,1912 ( S ^ ) Communal disfurbmces 190 Rule m in Gonda in U. P. <1 elsewhere the villages. The result of this as place and slogans of communalism are per the latest report is that 27 villages being raised. have been gutt^ and more than 400 persons lost their lives. Most of the As far as Uttar Pradesh is ooncem- deceased belonged to Kamelganj. ed many great persons have adorned Kajipur, Dhanawa, Shahpur, Shasa. the office of Chief Minister of this Kajemau, Gorianka Purawa, Pande- State when Chaudhary Charan Singh chora etc. Among those killed were became tne Chief Minister of U.P. women, men, children, youths and not a single incident of riot was report- even infants who were burnt and ed. There was no outbreak of commu- more than hundred children are re- nal riots and not a single Harijan was ported missing. More than ten killed during the Chief Ministership thousand people have fled from the of Pandit Govind Vallabh Pant and village and those still living in the Shii S. B. Gupta. Shri H. N. Bhauguna villages are faced with acute shortage was the Chief Minister of Uttar Pra- of food, water and medicine. Several desh for 26 months. There was no women have turned widows and no communal riots, no harijan was killed. one knows what sort of diflBculties they At that time there were S3 districts in are encountering. In Kajemau village nine families have been totally w ip^ Uttar Pradesh out of which 13 D.M. belonged to Scheduled Castes out and not even a child among them and Scheduled Tribes, 8 D.M. be- has survived. The nine families of Kajemau village were burnt like the longed to minorities and 8 S.P’s also be’onged to the minorities. woods bi'mt on the occas'on of Holi. Mathura, Etawa, Kanpur, Allahabad, Today, the people of the ruling Varanasi. Jaunpur, A/amearh, Luc- party are recruiting people of know, Pratapgarh and Ghadpur dis- their communities to various posts in tricts of Uttar Pradesh have a'so come the police department. Can this be in the grip of riots. Riots have also termed as an express on of secular erupted in Basti and Bhairaich. Com- feelings? 1 would like to say two things munal disturbances have also spread to you. The discussion that has taken in Rajasthan. Madhya Pradesh, Guja- place here in which both the ruling rat, Maharashtra, Bihar etc. This is a party and opposition took part reminds serious issue before the government. us of the ‘Ganiha’, of ‘Jatak’ who was worshipped by the people when they went into her house. But outside her house they called her ‘Ganiha*, Today, In this regard, I would like to ask the slight of everyone is the same two-three question to the Home Mi- whether they belong to the ruling party nister and the Government. The first or Janata Dal or the Bharatiya Janata question is this that the F.I.R. per- Party. When I discuss it with people taining to this riot has come to you. belonging to Left Parties. I discover You read the F.I.R. and tell us who that they are in no way bener. A lady are the people who have been accused col'eague h'»s riehtlv remarked that of inciting riots and who are the peo- the neoole belonirine to the ruling ple who have been arrested and sent party are instrumental in inciting com- to jail and the party to which they be- munal riots and for them they have long? I want to tell yon why the num- raised only one slogan which implies ber of riots has gone up so mirch during that twople do not want to change their the last 10 months. For the incidents attiti'de and believe in worthless talks. that took place during the last three What sort of people are running this years the Congress is alleged to have nation? They do not want to bring been responsible therefore because the reforms in real sense in the country. Shila Pujas was done during the re- They are making the people fi^ht with gime of Congress. But we cannot deny each other and are inciting communa- diat during the regime of the present lism in the country. You have taken government Rath Yatras are talring the country in these ten months to 14-2 LSS/ND/91— 191 Discussion wider OCTOBER 5.1990 Commwial disturbmces 192 Rule 193 in Gonda in U. P. St elsewhere [Sh. R. N. Rakesh] to be communal. The Sikhs in Punjab such a state that on one hand a person are called communal whereas the is severely punished for petty oSences members of other community who for cutting grass and on the other after tagging cigarettes on their La- band a person who kills Harijans- this raise such slogans, as “KACHH, Muslims goes scot free. The govern- KARA AUR KIRPAN, BHEJ ment claims itself to be secular and DENGE PAKISTAN”, are called well wisher of the mmorities, harijans. patriots. Are all they communal, who The Bharatiya Janata Party is may call cannot surrender their will to the majority? {Interruptions) Mr. Chair- themselves secular but the truth is that they are not secular but communal. man. Sir. I would not take more time. I am raising only three points. (Inierntptions) (Interruptions) Will it be possible to defme communalism. Unless and until [English} it is defined one cannot be blamed of being communal. *Iow I come to MR. CHAIRMAN: Nothing will the issue of the main-stream. V hat a go as record. I am not allowing. dual policy it is that those vvho use (Interruptions)* religion for political gains and go on Rath Yatra are considered as the part [TrmsUuiori^ of the national main-stream and those who oppose such filthy attejr>pts and S. ATINDER PAL SINGH express their firm faith in the Con- (Patiala): Mr. Chairman, Sir, this is stitution are considered to be alien a very serious and sensitive issue. I to the national main-stream. It should would like to raise only four points. be made clear. Those points are—the Secularism, the communalism, the country's main- You should determine these things stream. Let us Dfst discuss these on the basis of Indianisation for the three points only. I would request the sake of the unity and integrity of India; hon. Minister to consider the word otherwise, it will be betrayal with the secularism seriously. While talking Constitution and with the country. about secularism in the country, we should think that the framers of our constitution had not mentioned the I would request you to leave the word ‘Secular’ with the name of Babri-Masjid issue to the people of ‘Bharatvarsh’. I would like to know Ayodhya. If it is not possible, allot from you as to whether by inserting some other piece of land near the a word ‘secular’ only in the consti- Babri-Masjid to both the communi- tution through an Amendmenf. the ties for constructing their religious spirit of our constitution becomes se- shrines after declaring the existing cular? If not, what is the justification in inserting such a words in the Con- Masjid as a national sacred place. stitution which has not been defined Even if it is not acceptable to them, clearlv. This word should be defined the Government should construct a temple and a Mosque and then should first. We, the minorities are not call- ed secular because we do not adopt hand over those to both the communi- ourselves according to the wishes of ties and should preserve the existing the majority community and on the mosque as the religious centrc of other hand one who adapts himself India. It has been demanded that Rath Yatra should be banned. But a-'cording to them is called secular. {Interrup If this is the definition of secularism, I would like to request you does this criteria of deciding secula- tions) A demand for Shri Advani Ji’s rism match with the spirit of our arrest (Interruption^. These are poli- Constitution? Define communalism tically mouvaied demands. 1 would first before accusing any community request the Government not to ccmi- mit the mistake of arresting Shri •Not recorded. Advani Saheb as sudi arrest would 193 Di^cmshn under ASVINA 13,19)2 (5i4i^i4) Communal disturbances 194 Rule 193 in Gonda in U .P .A , elsewhere make him Hero of Hindus. Let him tiya Janata Party to the country raen go on wherever he grjes, we. all the and people belonging to all commu- Parliamentarians, should also reach nities and religions are greeting him. there on 30th of this month, andi show His Rath Yatra is in no way related our unity. to the communal riots. As Shri Lodha Ji has stated just now that the Supreme Court’s decision should be accepted in SHRI KALKA DAS (Karol Bagh): this regard. But, is it the justice that Mr. Chairman, Sir, we are discussing they will abide by it only when it goes the communal riots in the country in their favour, otherwise they will especially those of Kamail Ganj neglect it? and Gonda. Sir. you might have read in the newspapers that on 29th September, the hand-granades and Mr. Chairman, Sir, they are trying stones from the roof of a Party’s to mislead the people in order to grab office in Kasaiganj lc>cality, were votes. Shri Advani Ji's Rath Yatra is thrown on the Dustiehra procession not connectcd with these riots. My which was passing with the statues of friend Shri Tripathi Ji has said that goddess Durga on its usual route like the communalism of the majorities is every year. Tn this incident hundreds dangerous and that of the minorities is of people lost their lives while 17 not so. But we do not understand children are still missing. The police it that the majorities’ sentiment and have arrested Yawar Hussain, Munna views are evil and the niinoritie.^' and Haliki in this connection. The communalism is noble. To maintain 18 trucks carrying the statues of peace and order tin mass-feelings Durga were burnt by them. Was it should be respected in the democratic also the Rath Yatra of Advaniji? Is country. This is the will and dcci- this issue related to Advani Ji’s Rath r.‘on of the majority that the temple Yatra any more? Statues were being should be constructed there. So, it taken in procession on the occasion of should be carried on. Who will exe- Dushehra. How it is related to Ad- cute the court’s decision if the 85 per vani Ji’s Rath Yatra? But it has be- cent people of the country refuse to come a phobia to relate every inci- accept it? Some persons are interest- dent with Rath Yatra. In Gonda’s ed in spreading communal tension in communal clash, Dushehra procession the country. The riots are mainly was attacked by a particular commu- occurring due to bitter language as nity with leathal weapons killing being used by the Uttar Pradesh many persons. But in order to lessen Chief Minister and not due to Shri the intensity and seriousness of the Advani Ji’s Rath Yatra. offence due to which 35 villages are under the tension, attempts are being SHRI RAMESH CHENNITHA- made to give it a different turn. LA (Kottayam): Mr. Chairman, Sir, some forces are spreading communa- lism in this country. They are trying Mr. Chairman. Sir. due to scarcity to harm the unity and integrity of the of time, 1 am dealing with some points nation. We should tight against the only. There have been no riots at forces who are shedding biw d in this the place from where Advani Ji’s ^treat country. Just now a BJ.P. Rath Yatra has passed whether it is f’-’end ha<: said that v'hat harm Shri Guiarat. Karnataka or Maharashtra Advani Ji’s Rath Yatra is creating? His Yatra is for peace, liarmony and His Rath Yatra is flaming communal awakening public conscience. But the sentiments in different parts of the Congress-men and others are tiying *o <'ountry. Every wherry in the country mislead the peoole, Advani Ji is ap- there is situation of communal hatred pealin [Sh. Ramesh Chennithaia] cussing the same in the House, I am fully confident that some or the other has broken out in all the area!> of solution to the problem would be Bombay. The Army had to be called found. So far as the Goveniment is to control the situation of Udaipur, concerned, not only the National Chittauigarh and Pali in Rajasthan. Front Government at the Centre, but In Gujarat 12 persons were killed. also its Governments in the States Observing the grim situation of Baro- have implemented in toto the guide- dara the curfew was re-imposed there. lines that were prepared by the pre- In Raipur city of Madhya Pmdesh, as vious Government to maintain Com- published in the Newspapers, the munal harmony and stamp out com- A.B.V.P. members were behind the munalism. One can well notice the riot. In other provinces of the coun- change by reviewing the situation that try. the communal tensions and riots prevailed during the times of the pre- are spreading. The B.J.P. is mainly vious Government and the situatiw responsible for this grim situation prevailing now. prevailing in the country. The Gov- ernment should take effective steps to 21.51 hw. [MR. SPEAKER in the restore normalcy in the country. Chair.] Members of all Parties in their spee- ches have asked to stop Rath Yatra, The Government of Uttar Pradesh is which has become a threat to the its example which did not held the dis- unity of the country. If we go through trict administration responsible for the the traditions and history of our coun- lapses, but in accordance with the try in regard to the temple and mos- guidelines issued in this regard effected que, one can see that these attempts transfers and suspension of default- are being made to break those tradi- ing employees. Today we are concern- tions. Our hon. friend said that it ed about the Gonda incident. Most is the politics of votes. Please let me of the hon. Members have expressed know as to who is doing politics of their views in this regard. 1 would votes. It is not we but they who are like to give a brief account of that in- doing politics of votes. They are try- cident. It was a vCTy trivial matter. ing to damage our traditions by incit- Some act was being enacted v^^ile ing people about the temple and taking out the Durga procession, '^t mosque dispute. Due to hurried im- that time some people received minor plementation of the Mandal Commis- injuries due to some congestion. sion casteism is flaring up. Since a Suddenly a rumour spread that the discussion to this effect has since been people belonging to other communi- held, I am not going into its details. ties had killed a person in the pro- Everybody should make all out efforts cession. With that stone throwing to combat such forces. We have to started. One can see the extent of change this environment. We have mutual distrust. It is not a first in- to create harmony in the society in cident of its kind that took place order to eliminate these forces. It is during the time of the National Front necessary to change the present envi- Government. It is the handi work ronment in order to maintam the unity of those vested interests who have and the integrity of the country and been playing this type of games in the all of us should make every effort to country for the last 40 years. It is oppose these communal forces. not only the case of Government but THE MINISTER OF STATE IN also the Parliament where representa- THE MINISTRY OF HOME AFF- tives of various sections of the soci- AIRS (SHRl SUBODH KANT ety sit and it has been decided unani- SAHAY): Mr. Chairman, Sir. if mously in the National Integration -we discuss the communal situa- Cbuncil that communalism would be tion prevailing in Ihe country stamped out Snnilarly, I can assure out side the Parliament W'th that if a decision is taken by the Par- the same seriousness as we are dis- naiiaent to check the present itate of 197 Discussion under ASVINA 13,19I2(S^^^) Communal disturbances 19S R u le m inGondainV.P.A elsewhere communal situation in the country, taking place. Today, wc held discus- the Government would not remain far sions on Gonda incident and the hon. behind. {Interruptions) Members expressed their concern about the overall situation in the country, I can assure that the Government is SHRI BHCXJENDRA JHA (Ma- fully aware of the seriousness of the dhubani): As has been said by the situation. As I have already said that hon. Member, please let us know the Government would not hesitate to whether it is a fact that stones were take action under the laws against a iarown from some party oHice on the peron, however big he might be, if Durga Procession in Ganda. Does the it is found that he is posing a threat Government know about it or not? to law and order situation. I would liko to assure the house that guidelines SHRI HARISH RAWAT; Please in this regard have been decided by also state whether any F.I.R. was the National Integration Council and registered in this connection and if wc shall implement their decision in so, the name of the party \o which toto. This type of committees will also people belong whose names in be constituted at the State and dis- the F.T.R. trict levels - and people from all sec- tions of the society v;ili be involved in these committees. Efforts will be SHRI SUBODH KANT SAHAY: made to create an environment in If the culprit is in the Government, which such incidents could be con- he would not be spared, not to speak trolled before they actually take place. of any political party. The culprit If this measure becomes successful, throws the first stone and tliere- there would be no need to distribute aftcr the entire proce-^sion and relief or mourn the death of the vic- the entire community resort to stone tims. We are trying to identify the throwing. It is the responsibility of districts where number of such inci- the society to apprehend the person dents is higher. It is very necessary who threw the first stone. The State to find out wavs how to stamp out Government took immediate action. communalism. The Government shall Ex-0-atia payment @ Rs. 1 lakh cach take action with the same seriousness to the next of the kin of the people who as we have discussed it in the House were killed and (S) Rs. 5000 to each in- and take a decision bv sitting upto jured person and payment Rs. 2000 mid night. to people who receiv'd minor iniuries have been sanctioned by the State SHRI G. M. BANATWALLA Government. Some hon. Members fPonnani): No reply has been given alleged that no relief work has been to any one of the important points. taken up there. It is not so. A sum of Rs. 15 lakhs has been provided as relief. After the National Front Government came into power two Is this the reply? three months passed oflF peace- fully, but thereafter some people tried to create instability because they SHRI RAMESH CHENNITHA- wanted to do their politics. This type LA: There is a revolt in the Tihar of incident’s also took place in Gui- Jail. (1nterrupiions\ A very serious arat, Bihar, Madhya Pradesh, Tamil situation is prevailing in Tihar Jail Nadu, Uttar Pradesh and Karnataka, while only one or two incidents [Trartslafion] used to take place in Karna- taka earlier, now a days thev have SHRI SUBODH KANT SAHAY* increased by ten times. In Rajasthan If the hon. Member needs any addi- and Andhra Pradesh also this type tional inf^^rmation, I can furnish the of minor and major incidents arc same to him l?ter on. {Intemtptions) 15—2 tSS/ND/91 19$ Mmhttkm OCTOBER 5.1990 XfeUm Vnfyr St4k 37^ m Cmfnttment to the tdml vf Pern craik Secular State SHRI HARBH HAWAT; Th» between all sections of oar pe PROF. P. J. KIJRTEN: I cannot I hope the House agrees. but say that we are not satisfied with the reply. Many of the points have SOME HON. MEMBERS: Yes, not been touched by the Minister. yes. The resolution was adopted. 2 2 ^ hrs. PROF. P. J. KURIEN (Maveli- MR. SPEAKER: The statements kara); We want to end this discussion under Rule 377 of all the Plon. Mem- with a harmonious note All of us bers who have been permitted to make are equally concerned to what is hap- the statements will be treated as read. pening in the country and therefore. I understand...(/nrerrwfXfom'). I am 22.02 hrs. trying to bring to a cordial note, not a discordial note. There is almost a MATTERS UNDER RULE 377 con.‘en.'!us on a Resolution, which is (i) Need to give clcaraace to Oe a posilive Resolution and which has irri^timi i^jecte of Vidaitdui an operative part also. Hon, Shri i^ io n Maharaditta. Jaswant Singh has shown me that In Resolution, which hon. Speaker has also agreed. This idea has been noted [Er^ish] and I understand that there is agree- SHRI SHANTARAM POTDU- ment from all sides of the House. KHE (Chandrapur): Irrigation pro- From our side, there is full agreement jects of Vidarbha region of Maha- and it will be a good thing that if rashtra, spcpally that of Chandrapur we unanimously pass that Resolution. and OadchiroH districts are awaitnig environmental dearance from the THE MINISTER OF FINANCE Union Government (PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE): l^ t us pass it before we oisperse. This is due to non-settlement Zudpi Jungle issue which is in fact RESOLUTION a revenue luid, used grazing pur- poses in VidajlHba. I urge upon dte Conmitment lo flie ideal of A Government ot India, Miidstiy oi D em oentk Seevfair State Enviromncmt to clear Aese i^rojeets on the issue oi Ix A ji lung^ MR. SPEAKER: "This House rei- treated as ivivbine land to be used terates its commitment to the ideal of for the alt<»«8tati(Mi ^o^eam o^ a demociatic secul&r state; to hat* Ministiy 6t Saviromaent «t the ear* mony in our society and to wniQ? liesi 201 Matters Under ASVINA 13,1912 {SAKA) Ruk 377 202 (iO Need lo ptovide financial assis- backward hilly and border areas. tance to die Govenunent of Unfortunately, the hilly areas of Uttar Katnataka to rehabilitate Pradesh have not been covered under devadasis Doordarshan expansion scheme. At present less than 25 per cent peofde SHRI C. P. MUDALA GIRI- of this region can view T.V. program* YAPPA (Chitradurga): The incidents mes. The Ministry has not set up of dedication of girls as devadasis are T.V. Towers even at those places for taking place in the country even after which approval was already accorded 43 years of Independence especially resulting in great resentment among in the border areas of Karnataka. the people of these tribal dominated Maharashtra and Andhra Pradesh. border areas. Like the Satt system this is also an inhuman practice. I would, therefore, request the hon. The Andhra Pradesh Government Minister that T.V. Towers should ^ passed legislation in 1987 banning the set up at Tehsil and sub-Tchsil head- practice of devadasi system. The quarters at Munsyaii, Champavat. Karnataka Government has also tak- Didihat, Gangolihat. Beiinag. Bagesih- en up several measures to put an war, Kapkot, Bhikiyasain, Moulckhal end to this evil system. In spite of (Ratkhal) of (he hilly areas of Uttar this, the practice prevails in the coun- Pradesh in this year itself. try though there is decrease in the number of such incidcnrs. Inciden- tally almost all these victims are from (iv) Need to provide financial the downtrodden communities. assistance to the Government of Uttar Pradesh for constmction/ The Karnataka State Government repair of National Highways had undertaken recendy a compre- particularly National Highways hensive survey in all the taluks of passing through Mohanlalganj Belgaimi district about devadasis and Parliamentary Constituency the data collected is being pioces^ by computers. Meanwhile, a project report on various measures to be taken SHRI SARJU PRASAD SAROJ up to rehabilitate the victims of (Mohanlalganj); Sir. I would like devadasi practice has been prepared to draw the allenlion of the Govern- on the basis of a survey and this had ment towards Mohanlalganj Parlia- been submitted to the Government of mentary Constituency in Uttar Pra- India for sanction. desh. Several National Highways are passing through this constituency, I urge upon the Government of but they are in very bad shape. The India to sanction the project and to work of these National Highways has provide substantial financial help to not been completed and at some pla- the State Government of Karnataka ces they are narrow at some placcs so that the victims of this system they are still unmetalled and at some could find a better future. other places only gravels have been laid. In the absence of ro^id light on these Highways many serious road accidcnts have taken place. The water logging on these roads during (iii) Need to set op T.V. towers rainy season causes great difficulties in HiBy areas of Uttar Pra* to the people using these roads. desh [Trmslation] Sir, I am giving here Ihe details of SHRI HARISH RAWAT (Almora); some of the National Highwrys such Mr. Speaker. Sir. under Doordarshan as Lucknow-Hardoi uiad via Maliha- expansion policy it has been mention- bad, Mohan Road from Mohan to ed that priority would be given to the Hasanganj. Unnav-Kanpur Road. 203 M a m s Under OCTOBER 5, 1990 X ule377 204 [Sh. Sarju Prasad Saroj) The GovemmcBt should apprehend Lucknow—Sultanpur Road via Gosai- such misguided youth and anti-social elements and take legal action against ganj and Lucknow—Varanasi via Rae them. Bareli. Other connecting roads to these National Highways are also in (tII) Need to ensore direct pm- very bad shape and due to the scar- diase of mw jute lute city of funds the work of these roads Corporation of India and dso could not be completed. revise its temunetative price I would, therefore, urge upon the Central Government to provide finan- [English] cial assistance of Rs. 10 crores im- mediately to the State Government so SHRl AJOY MUKHOPADHYAY that the National Highways and other (Krishnagar); Jute is one of the two roads connecting with them which main cash crops in West Bengal. So could not be repaired for want cf far as my Constituency in Nadia dis- funds could be repaired. trict is concerned, jute is the main cash crop. Jute products earn a consi- (v) Need to set up a bcnch of derable amount of foreign exchange Allaliabad High Court at also. But the cultivators/growers Agra. Uttar Pradesh are being deprived of remunerative price for their hard-earned produce. SHRl RAMJl LAL SUMAN (Firo- As there is no adequate number of zabad); Mr. Speaker, Sir, under purchasing centres of the Jute Cor- rule 377, I would like to draw the at- poration of India, the poor cultivators tention of the Government towards do not get the o j^rtu n ity to sell setting up of a bcnch ot Allahabad their produce to J.C.I. As a result High Court at Agra, .laswant Singh they become victims of the middle- Commissbn was constituted by the men and are compelled to sell it to Government to find out the possibili- them at much lower rates. ties of setting up benches of Allaha- bad High Court which has strongly recommended for setting up of the 1 therefore, urge upon the Govern- bench at Agra.' Therefore, the ment to make elaborate arrangements Government .should set up a bench of without any further delay for purcha- Allahabad High Court at Agra with- sing the total quantity of raw jute out any delay so that the possible agi- directly from the real producers tation in this region could be averted. thn>ugh J.C.I, I would also request the Government to revise the remune- (vi) Need to take action against rative price as decided earlier and the persons involved in fix it at Rs. 650/- per quintal and for damaging statues of Dr. mesta at Rs. 450/- per quintal. Ambedkar SHRI KALKA DAS (Karol Bagh): (vin) Need to msate purdmse of The birth centenary of Babsaheb paddy by olBcial agencies in Ambedkar is being celelwated in the Panjab country and the Government have declared it the year of social justice. SHRI RAJDEV SINGH (Sangrur): It has been reported that some misgui- After very hard work, the farmers of ded youth and anti-social elements Punjab have produced good paddy have damaged the statues of Dr. Am- crop. But the paddy is now rotting bedkar with the intention to spread in mandis of Punjab. This is due to violence and to divide our society and failure of official agencies to puidiase country. We .still need to take the paddy arriving in mandis. Huge message of patriotism and social re- stocks of paddy have accumulated in forms of Dr. Ambedkar to all people mandis of various districts. Heavy of the society. rains during the last days have also 205 Matters Under ASVmA 13,19i2 (SAKA) Rule $77 2p$ considerably dam ag^ paddy. The death, throttgih “Ganadaram”, Thus, fanners have been sitting in the man- the need of the hour is to make dis for the past 20 days with the pro- prwnpt arrangements, essential in duce but the official agencies are not making successful cadaver dosatiotu making any purchase. The officials for comeal grafting, kidney and heart of these agencies go to the market and trani^lants, skeletons for medical re- purchase a few hundred bags and search etc. The imperative safegiuud leave the market. The purchase is to be exerciscd in this regard is the made just to mark their presence in strict banning of illicit-cum-lucrative the mandis. The rice sellers are also trade in kidneys. Unrelated donor not making much purchase as they are transplants, leading to gross misuse of awaiting that the farmers would be its very purpose, should be totally compelled to make distress sale of banned while a vigorous campaign their producc. This is a very serious for cadaver donations started forh- mlacter. The Government should with. take immctiiate Mops for the purchase of paddy by official agcncies in Pun- 1 would urge the Government of jab. India for passing suitable legislation expeditiously, to allow acccptance of 'bodies after death for the noble causes of not only populiarising life-saving (ix) Need to enact legisblion fot organ transplant.s. but also promoting acceptance of human bodies vital medical research. after death for promoting mcdi- ral research and popularising life-saving organ trcnsplanls (x) Need to regularise (he services of Extra Departmental Em- ployees SHRl GOPI NATH GAJAPATHl (Berhumpur): In ancient India, during the days of Charaka and Sus- SHRI GOVINDA CHANDRA ruta, anauimical scicnce had made MUNDA (Keonjhar): Sir. there are tremendous advancement. The year thousands of employees working in 1832 is also significant, when Jeremy the Department of Posts & Telegraphs Benthcm, the utilitarian philosopher, who are called Extra Departmental donated his body for medical research. employees. They have been working In India, the first body donor was at a low rate of wages since long. Panduranga Apte. the Gandhian They do not have service conditions tcacher, in 1952. 'Ike those of permanent employees of the Department. - They are called Today, pledging of one’s body for Runner in Orissa. They carry donation i pon death, popularly kn^wn mail bags to and from the Head or as cadavci' donations, for organ trans- Sub-post offices from Branch post offi- plants and medical research, is not an w®' deliver the letters. uncommon practice in the West. Money Orders and Parcels to the ad- However. in our country, supers! i- dressees. Most of them are eilJjer tions and taboos override even the &heduled Castes or Scheduled Tribes. routine practice of postmortem, much It IS unfortunate that the employees less organ and body donations. who are doing the real work in the ‘•Ganadarpan.” a Calcutta-based vo- rural areas do not have any reeular lu n t ^ organisation since 1985, has service conditions. meiitCMiously been campaigning for donations to popularise organ trans- request that the services of Extra plants and promote medical research. ^ a rtm e n ta l employees of the Postal Department of Orissa and other States Till now. over 400 individuals have should be replarised. They should other benefits like pro- pledged to donate their bodies after vident Flind, gratuity and bonus etc 207 Matters Under OCTOBER 5,1990 iiw/e 37? m Ill) Need to fc»«k Into .flie p i o ^ ed. Twice duly inagurated. the bud- Iw ei by iBdlaiis Ihring on I«do- geted conversicm of Sam astl^-D U ’< IHwtan border bhanga line to B.G. and extending the same to Jai Nagar and Raxaul has SHRlMANItC SANYAL (Jalpai- been shelved several times in the past BUti): The acUon (rf Royal Govern- It is now moving at a snail’s pace witii ment of Bhutan to tackle the pre^J no guarantee of early com^dtftkm. political upheaval prevailing in that Floods, drought and power crisis have i ^ t r y has caused a serious concern become a permanent featue and no for the Indian citizens Uvmg ui Indo- attempt is made to construct multi- Bhutan border regions. The putpose high dams over rivers Koshi. firing by Bhutan Military forces w ^ h Kamla, Bagmati. Mahananda and resulted in the death of more than Mashan which alone can provide three hundred Bhutani atizens has durable solution to most uf the ills of left a serious impact on the mmo ot North Bihar and Tarai region Inrfjan citizen of that region as to Uwir Nepal besides providing adequate security, peace and tranquillity. This hydel power for several States. The action rf the Bhutan Government has projcct report for multi-purpose high not remained confined within its own dam over river Koshi stnt to H.M. of territoty. An unprovoked firing by Nepal is not being seriously pursued the Bhutani Military on 23rd Septem- at political level. . ber, 1990, adjacent to Chunbhati Tea Estate under Banarhat Police Station Even the existing industries like of Jalpaiguri District, causing death of the Ashoka Paper Mills, Thakur two Indian citizens and serious injury Paper Mills, fruit processing factories to the driver of Additional Superin- of Madhubani. Darbhanga are langui- tendent of Police of Jalpaiguri has ag- shing and the old sugar mills of Rai- gravated the fear psychosis among yann, Lohat and Sa^i are not being Se Indian people. Further the modernised. The completion of Bhutan Government has scaled its Western Koshi canal is also being de- border and imposed a bar on the layed. entry of Indian citizens in Bhutan. Besides. Indian pass holders who are Even the generating capacity of employed in cement factory and other Darbhanga station of the All India estsfclishments in Bhutan are also not Radio is not being increased in the allowed to enter in that country. This name of lack of resources. Per may ultimately affect the existing capita power consumption is less than friendly relations with the Bhutan one-fifth of that of Bihar which itself Gwemmeot. is for less than the average national level. In view of this I urge upon the Thus, the people of the area feel Central Government to take up the utterly frustrated due to continued matter with the Bhutan Government neglect. so that normalcy is restored and the sense of insecurity among our people is removed expeditiously. I urge upon the Union Government to take steps for ec(moimic develof^* ment of North Bihar and to amdio- (xli) Need to lake steps for the over* rate the condition of the people. an development uf North Khar (xiii) Need to set op a T.V. rd»y ceniK eitfaer at Vind or Kiishe> SHRI BHOGENDRA JHA shwar in Rosera, Bihar (M fi^ul»ni); There seems to be discrimination against the Mithila re- [Tramlation] gion of North Bihar and this is the only area in the country where rail- SHRI DASAI CHOWDHARY way facflities have actually decreas- (Rosera): Sir, Rosera Parliaauntaty 209 Matters Under Rule 377 ASVINA13,1912 {SAKjI^VeMUHary Si^kramt ^ Qjnstitueocy In Bihar in the most amongst tbe people of JIiaddBNBd oackward area. The vfliagew in that region who are now on tl» p a ^ s t ^ we facing diflfculty in viewing militant action. A call has allHKly T.V. programmes becausc Doritiar- been given for a bandh on 8fli Octo* fihan Centres are situated at Dar- ber and a wedc long blacbule of all bhanga and Saharsa. People resi- the mineitils including coal aiKl Iron ding in the area falling between these cripiding the industrial life d ^ w o centres are also keenly interested whole country. “ Viewing T.V. programmes. Virol and Kusheshwar blocks of Darbhanga When all the areas of Ac countiy distoct are remote rural areas. I have are in turmoil the effect of disturban- ^so written a letter to the hon. Minis- ces in this industrial heart dt tile I f “V T-V-relay centre either country would be disastrous. I at Virol or Kusheshwar block. request the Government to start mean- ingful discussion on the basis of tite I would, therefore, request the Report and come to an amicable set* oovenunent to set up a T.V relay tlement on the Jharkhaod issue doSng centre either at Virol or Kusheshwar justice to the people there. block of Darbhanga district. (*iv) Need to settle the Jharkiumd VALEDICTORY REFERENCES issue amicably [English] [English] MR. SPEAKER: Hon. Memben. wc have had a short but very fruitful SHRI A. K. ROY (Dhanbad): A week. The House resumed its sittings Committee on Jharkhand matters on Monday, the 1st October after it (CJM) was set up by the Government was adjourned sine-die on 7th Septem- of India in 1989 to “examine and re- ber. We could hold only three sit- commend the modalities for meeting tings because of the intervoiing holi- the just aspirations of the people of days. Nonetheless, the House can fte region within the Constitutional congratulate itself fen: passing almost framewcwk”, i.e. the area of Chhota- unanimously the Constitution (67th n a p u r and Santhal Paraganas of Amendment) Bill, 1990. That only Bihar and the adjoining areas of West proves—if any p ^ was necessary— Bengal. Orissa, Madhya Pradesh, mostly inhabited by the tribal and that ours is a vibrant democracy and other oppressed nationalists. The when it comes to the crunch we tate people there were making movement no time to come together. This is Jast fifty years for a separate what has precisely happened on flie State of Jharkhand. Punjab issue. The House has had very useful de- "rae Committee, after the in depth bates—-most important of them bdag study and several meetings with the Ae discussion on the ad jo u n u n ^ peoples rqwesentatives including the motion on the student’s agitation operating against Government’s decision on tbe t o , submitted its report in May Mandal Oommission Report I am 1990 to the Union Home Minister in sure this debate would go a veiy kmg presence of all the MPs of Chhota- way in clearing tiie air and in assur- B ^ r and Santhal Paraganas of ing the _ student community that tiiis Bihar, Though assured acdon with- House is rally conscious thdir m a monft till this date the Report future—^their hopes and aspiratiotu. was not piaced brfore the P a r lia ^ t a meaningfol discussioi) Justice of India—was « reflectipn ot SHRI SONTOiai MOHAN DfeV: the deep agony and conccm of this Are you speaking after yoitr dinoer? House and the Government over a v«y unfortunate incidrat. [TrmsUtlion] MR. SPEAKER: We know that The communal situation in the he is h u n ^ . He has not taken countiy has again become a matter of anything since tnoming. concern and it is only proper that the House has discussed this Matter under [English] rule 193 today. I have every h t ^ that the message that shall go out SHRI P. UPENDRA: I also from here today would help in defus- thank you, the Deputy Speaker, the ing the situation and in restoration of Panel of Chairmen and the Sccieta- normalcy. riat for the excellent cooperation. Under their guidance, we have been Hon. Members, we in this House able to complete this four-day session have the onerous responsibility of very successfully. We have been voicing the people’s urges and aspi- able to discuss a number of other im- rations as well as their anxieties and portant issues also, in addition to the agonies. We must ever live up to scheduled business. Before conclu- the people’s expectations and act as a ding. I would like to wish all the hon. true mirror to the nation. So. we Members a very happy Diwali. We go back to oiff constituents with some will meet again in the Winter Session sense of satisfaction over what we for transaction of more important have accomplished in this short week. business.. UnterrupUoft-i)- Before I conclude, I deem it only MR. SPEAKER: I also join him proper to thank my colleagues- the and wish the hon. Members Happy Deputy Speaker and members of the Diwali. panel of Chairmen in assisting me in my task of conducting the proceedings SHRI IBRAHIM SULAIMAN erf this House. Needless to say. but SAIT; Now. Sir, you did enough. for rheir cooperation, it would just not be possible to shoulder this one- AN HON. M EM BER: We have rous responsibility. I must also missed the dinner from you. thank the Minister of Parliamentary Affairs, his colleagues, the leaders SHRI P. UPENDRA: I am very of various parties and groups and in- sorry for that. The agreement was deed each one of you. hon. Members, that the Chief Whip of the Opposi- in coooerating with me and making tion... Unterruptionv). my task easy. THE MINISTER OF FINANCE THE MINISTER OF INFOR- (PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE); MATION & BROADCASTING In protest, we are coming and eating AND MINISTER OF PARLIAMEN- with you. TARY AFFAIRS (SHRI P. ITPEN- DRA>: Sir. 1 join you in the ex- SHRI P. UPENDRA; He was pression of the .sentiments and thanks £ipposed to the same. But I apolo- to all the Members. It was a very gise for the inconvenience caused to short session but swi?t. and convened the hon. Members, Thank you all at a very short notice to transact a very much. specific business. That has been done and very smoothly it was done. MR. SPEAKER: The House now I sincerely thank all the Parties »nd stands adjourned stne dk. their leaders, the entire Opp'isiti<^ particularly, for cooperating in the 22.06 hn. transaction of the business.. .(/nrrr- .rUptians). The Lok StAfta then adfoumed sfae dto M 01PCBB-4 2 - 2 LSS/ND/W -10-5-91—700 Bk».