MACKENZIE VALLEY PIPELINE INQUIRY

IN THE MATTER OF THE APPLICATIONS BY EACH OF

(a) CANADIAN ARCTIC GAS PIPELINE LIMITED FOR A RIGHT-OF-WAY THAT MIGHT BE GRANTED ACROSS CROWN LANDS WITHIN THE YUKON TERRITORY AND THE , and

(b) FOOTHILLS PIPE LINES LTD. FOR A RIGHT-OF-WAY THAT MIGHT BE GRANTED ACROSS CROWN LANDS WITHIN THE NORTHWEST TERRITORIES FOR THE PURPOSE OF A PROPOSED MACKENZIE VALLEY PIPELINE

and

IN THE MATTER OF THE SOCIAL, ENVIRONMENTAL AND ECONOMIC IMPACT REGIONALLY OF THE CONSTRUCTION, OPERATION AND SUBSEQUENT ABANDONMENT OF THE ABOVE PROPOSED PIPELINE

(Before the Honourable Mr. Justice Berger, Commissioner)

Montreal, May 31, 1976

PROCEEDINGS AT COMMUNITY HEARING

Volume 62

The 2003 electronic version prepared from the original transcripts by Allwest Reporting Ltd. Vancouver, B.C. V6B 3A7 Ph: 604-683-4774 Fax: 604-683-9378 www.allwestbc.com APPEARANCES

Mr. Ian G. Scott, Q.C. Mr. Ian Waddell, and Mr. Ian Roland for Mackenzie Valley Pipeline Inquiry

Mr. Pierre Genest, Q.C. and Mr. Darryl Carter, for Canadian Arctic Gas Pipeline Lim- ited;

Mr. Alan Hollingworth and Mr. John W. Lutes for Foothills Pipe- lines Ltd.;

Mr. Russell Anthony and pro. Alastair Lucas for Canadian Arctic Resources Committee

Mr. Glen Bell, for Northwest Territo- ries Indian Brotherhood, and Metis Association of the Northwest Territories. INDEX Page

WITNESSES: Guy POIRIER 6883 John CIACCIA 6889 Pierre MORIN 6907 Chief Andrew DELISLE 6911 Jean-Paul PERRAS 6920 Rick PONTING 6931 John FRANKLIN 6947

EXHIBITS: C-509 Province of Quebec Chamber of Commerce - G. Poirier 6888 C-510 Submission by J. Ciaccia 6906 C-5l1 Submission by Helen Silverman 6919 C-512 Submission by Sidbec-Dosco Limited 6929 C-513 Submission by J. Rick Ponting 6947 Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 6872

1 , Quebec 2 May 31, 1976. 3 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO ADJOURNMENT) 4 MR. WADDELL: Mr. Commissioner, 5 before we begin, I should say there are some instanteous 6 translation devices at the back of the room. 7 THE COMMISSIONER: Ladies and 8 gentlemen, the Mackenzie Valley Pipeline Inquiry is 9 holding a series of hearings in the main centres of 10 Southern Canada to consider the views that so many of 11 you who live here in Southern Canada have asked for an 12 opportunity to present to the inquiry. 13 We in Canada stand at our 14 last frontier. We have some important decisions to 15 make, decisions for which all of us will share a 16 measure of responsibility. 17 Two pipeline companies, 18 Arctic Gas and Foothills Pipe Lines, are competing for 19 the right to build a gas pipeline to bring natural gas 20 from the Arctic Ocean to Southern Canada and the United 21 States, The has established this 22 Inquiry to see what the social, economic and 23 environmental consequences will be if the pipeline goes 24 ahead, and to recommend what terms and conditions 25 should be imposed if the pipeline is built. 26 We are conducting an Inquiry 27 about a proposal to build a pipeline along the route of 28 Canada's mightiest river, a pipeline costlier than any 29 in history, a pipeline to be built across our Northern 30 Territories, a land where four races of people -- Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 6873

1 white, Indian, Metis and live, where seven 2 different languages are spoken; the first pipeline in 3 the world to be buried in the permafrost. 4 The pipeline project will not 5 consist simply of a right-of-way. It will take three 6 years to build. It will entail hundreds of miles of 7 access roads over the snow and ice, it will mean that 8 6,000 workers will be needed to build the pipeline, and 9 1,200 more to build the gas plants in the Mackenzie 10 Delta; it will mean pipe, barges, wharves, trucks, 11 machinery, aircraft, airstrips; in addition, it will 12 mean enhanced oil and gas exploration and development 13 in the Mackenzie Valley, the Mackenzie Delta, and the 14 Beaufort Sea. 15 16 The inquiry began its hearing 17 on March 3, 1975 in Yellowknife. Since then we have 18 held many months of formal hearings listening to the 19 evidence of engineers, scientists, biologists, 20 anthropologists, economists, listening to the people 21 who have made it the work of their lifetime o study the 22 north and northern conditions. 23 The environment of the Arctic 24 has been called fragile. That may or may not be true. 25 Arctic species certainly are tough. They have to be to 26 survive, but at certain times of the year, especially 27 when they are having their young, they are vulnerable. 28 If you build a pipeline from 29 Alaska along the Arctic coast of the Yukon you will be 30 opening up a wilderness where the Porcupine caribou Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 6874

1 herd calves -- on the coastal plain and in the foot - 2 hills -- every summer. This is one of the last great 3 herds of caribou in North America. Then it is proposed 4 that the pipeline from Alaska should cross the mouth of 5 the Mackenzie Delta where the white whales of the 6 Beaufort Sea have their young each year. Millions of 7 birds come to the Mackenzie Delta and the coast of the 8 Beaufort Sea each summer from all over the Western 9 Hemisphere to breed and to store up energy for their 10 long journey south in the fall. Can we build pipelines 11 from the north under conditions that will ensure the 12 survival of these species? These are some of the 13 questions that we are examining. 14 But it is the people of 15 the north that have the most at stake here because 16 they will have to live with whatever decisions are 17 made. 18 That is why this Inquiry has 19 held hearings in 28 cities and towns, villages, 20 settlements and outposts in the north, to enable the 21 peoples of the north to tell me, the government, and 22 all of us, what their life and their own experience 23 have taught them about the north and the likely impact 24 of a pipeline and energy corridor. 25 So the Inquiry has been from 26 Sachs Harbour to Fort Smith, from Old Crow to Fort 27 Franklin, and has heard from 700 witnesses in the north 28 in English, French, Loucheux, Slavey, Dogrib, Chipewyan 29 and Eskimo. 30 L'enquête ne se concentre pas Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 6875

1 seulement sur la construction d'un pipeline. Les 2 directives sur les pipelines ne s'arretent pas l. Elles 3 demandent de considérer les conséquences de la 4 construction dans le contexte de l'établissement d'un 5 corridor dans la vallée du Mackenzie, 6 Donc nous devons considérer 7 les conséquences d'un corridor qui conduira le gaz et 8 le pétrole de l'Arctique jusqu'au centre du continent. 9 Ce sera la tiche du 10 Gouvernement lorsqu'il aura reçu mon rapport et celui 11 de l'Office National de l'Energie de décider si l'on 12 doit construire un pipeline et établir un corridor de 13 pipelines. Ce sont là des questions parlementaires à 14 être réglées per nos hommes politiques. 15 Ma tâche est d'assurer que 16 nous comprenions les conséquences de nos actions afin 17 que le Gouvernement puisse rendre un jugement précis et 18 renseigné. 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 6876

1 Notre tâche est de faire 2 ressortir les méthodes qui seront les plus 3 constructives lorsque nous commencerons le dveloppement 4 du ord. sous sommes obligés d'examiner soigneusement 5 toutes les questions se rapportant â un projet de cette 6 grandeur. 7 Voici quelques-unes de ces 8 questions: Est-ce que la question des revendications 9 foncières par les autochtones devrait être réglée avant 10 la construction d'un pipeline? 11 Si l'on construit ce pipeline 12 et que les autochtones désirent participer sa 13 construction, pouvons-nous leur assurer des emplois 14 profitables? 15 Pourront-ils acquérir des 16 métiers qui leur serviront dans le Nord une fais la 17 construction du pipeline terminée? 18 Sommes-nous capables d'éta 19 blir des bases d'affaires solides qui permettront aux 20 entreprises commerciales du Nord d'obtenir des contrats 21 de construction pour le pipeline? 22 Et que ferons-nous des 23 syndicats? Un n'a qu'à observer le contrôle absolu 24 qu'ils exercent en Alaska. 25 Devraient-ils avoir cette 26 iesure de controle dans la Vallée du Mackenzie? 27 La construction du pipeline 28 29 30 Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 6877

1 va occasionner un boom économique sans pareil et nous 2 serons obliges d'agrandir nos écoles, nos hôpitaux, 3 d'augmenter la force publique ainsi que les services mu- 4 nicipaux? 5 Nous nous croyons un peuple 6 nordique. Alors, l'avenir du Nord devrait nous 7 concerner. En fait, c'est notre appétit pour le pétrole 8 et le gaz, ainsi que notre façon de consommer nos 9 ressources naturelles qui ont occasionné les demandes 10 d'extraction du gaz et du pétrole dans l'Arctique. 11 A mon avis, ce qui va se 12 dérouler dans le Nord est d'une importance primordiale 13 et nous en serons responsables, tous et chacun. 14 C'est pourquoi nous sommes 15 ici, pour vous écouter. 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 6878

1 We have with us tonight some 2 visitors from the Canadian north who accompany the 3 Inquiry wherever it goes. The C.B.C. established a 4 broadcasting unit at the beginning of the Inquiry to 5 broadcast over the northern network for one hour each 6 evening in English and the native languages what was 7 said at the Inquiry that particular day, and in our 14 8 months of hearings in Northern Canada and during this 9 one month tour of the main centres of Southern Canada, 10 that C.B.C. broadcasting unit has accompanied the 11 Inquiry and will be broadcasting to Northern Canada 12 what is said at this proceeding this evening in English 13 and French. 14 The broadcasters who are at 15 the press table include Whit Fraser, who broadcasts in 16 English; Joe Toby, who broadcasts in Dogrib and 17 Chipewyan Abe Okpik, who broadcasts in Eskimo; Louis 18 Blondin, who broadcasts in Slavey; and Jim Sittichin1i 19 who broadcasts in Loucheux. 20 Now I think that 21 notwithstanding the failures of technology that 22 accompanied us to Montreal, we will carry on now and 23 I'll ask Mr. Roland to outline our procedure and I 24 think we'll just carry on, no matter what the sound 25 system and the microphones try to do to us in the 26 course of the evening. So go ahead, Mr. Roland. 27 MR. ROLAND: Thank you, sir. 28 I think it would be appropriate at the beginning to say 29 a word about the procedure which will be followed in 30 this hearing and which has been followed in all other Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 6879

1 cities in Southern Canada. The procedure which 2 Commission counsel has recommended and which has been 3 accepted by counsel for the two applicants and all 4 formal participants is designed to be as informal and 5 as relaxed as possible, with a view to allowing all 6 those who wish to make submissions to do so convenient 7 y and comfortably. 8 Prior to coming to Southern 9 Canada the Inquiry published an advertisement setting 10 out its hearing dates in a number of newspapers, 11 including newspapers in Montreal. In that 12 advertisement , person who wished to make submissions 13 were invited to write or telephone us by May 1st, 14 indicating their desire to do so. This request was 15 made I so that the Inquiry would be able to gauge the 16 time required in Southern Canada to hear submissions 17 and so that our timetable in each community could be 18 carefully 19 mapped. 20 Persons who responded in 21 writing or by telephone to our advertisement were 22 given appointments to make submissions before you and 23 it is that process that we are beginning here in 24 Montreal tonight. I wish to emphasize that any other 25 person who did not respond to our advertisement by May 26 1st but wishes to make a submission is entitle. and 27 encouraged to do so. This may be done in one of two 28 ways. A submission in writing may be made any time by 29 writing to the Mackenzie Valley Pipeline Inquiry, 30 Yellowknife, Northwest Territories. There is no Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 6880

1 necessity that 'a written submission needs any 2 particular formal requirements. A simple letter 3 setting out the matters that you want to bring to the 4 Inquiry's attention will be quite satisfactory. 5 If persons who did not 6 respond to the advertisement wish to make an oral 7 submission at this hearing, it would be much 8 appreciated if they would speak to me or to Mr. 9 Waddell, sitting at the table on my left, as soon as 10 possible and an effort will be made to provide a time 11 for you to make you r submission within the existing 12 agenda. 13 I should add that in order to 14 encourage informality, counsel for the two applicants and 15 the participants have agreed that there will be no cross- 16 examination of those making submissions unless it is 17 specifically requested. In place of cross-examination, 18 counsel for each of the applicants and each of the 19 participants will be allowed at the conclusion of each 20 morning, afternoon, and evening session to make a 21 statement not exceeding ten minutes about the submissions 22 which have been heard during that session. 23 You will notice that persons 24 making submissions are asked to give their oath or 25 affirm. This is a practice that the Inquiry has 26 followed not only in the formal hearings in Yellowknife 27 but at community hearings in each of the 28 communities 28 in the Mackenzie Valley and delta. The purpose of the 29 oath or affirmation is recognition of the importance of 30 the work in which the Inquiry is engaged. Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 6881

1 Sir, with those remarks I 2 think we can turn to Mr. Waddell to call the first 3 witness this evening. 4 MR. WADDELL: Judge Berger, 5 the first witness on our agenda is Guy Poirier, who is 6 from the University of Sherbrooke, the Faculty of 7 Sciences. Mr. Poirier? 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 6882

1 GUY POIRIER assermenté; 2 Bon! J'aimerais parler ce 3 soir plutôt en tant que canadien qu'en, tant que 4 biochimiste, ça fait que disons que mon intervention va 5 être assez courte. 6 Premièrement, j'aimerais dire 7 qu'en tant que citoyen canadien, je suis très touché, 8 par la possibilité de la construction d'un pipeline 9 dans la vallée du Mackenzie. Il me semble que la 10 présence d'un tel pipeline sera une atteinte directe à 11 la fragilité, à l'intégrité et à l'écologie entière du 12 Nord canadien. 13 14 Disons que j'aimerais 15 souligner environ quatre points: le premier point c'est 16 qu'il est intéressant de noter qu'on a fait plus 17 d'études sur le Nord canadien dans les cinq (5) 18 dernières années que dans une période précédente de 19 cinquante (50) ans. 20 21 La plupart de ces études, 22 semble-t-il, malheureusement ont été motivées par 23 l'intérêt direct qu'on porte pour l'entité nordique, 24 non, excusez-moi, non pas par l'intérêt direct qu'on 25 porte pour l'entité nordique, mais plutôt par notre 26 soif insatiable d'énergie. 27 28 Il est intéressant de noter 29 qu'en mil neuf cent cinquante (1950) on ne connais sait 30 même pas le nombre d' au Canada, mais que Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 6883

1 présentement on connaît probablement la quantité de gaz 2 qu'il y a au Canada. 3 Une fois de plus, 4 probablement que les gens du Sud résidant dans des 5 grandes villes vont décider de l'avenir des gens du 6 Nord, les gens du Sud n'ayant pas de grandes 7 connaissances sur l'état dc la nature canadienne. 8 9 Par contre, je crois 10 fermement que si on veut protéger les cultures 11 indiennes et esquimaudes qui sont après tout notre 12 héritage historiue en tant que canadiens, on se doit de 13 protéger l'intégrité des territoires arctiques et sub- 14 arctiques. 15 Deuxièmement, j'aimerais 16 poser une question fondamentale, qui est à la base, je 17 crois, de cette enquête: est-ce que les canadiens sont 18 prêts diminuer leur consommation d'énergie afin de 19 sauver ou d'épargner la nature canadienne ou vont-ils 20 continuer . ëtre parmi les trois plus grands 21 consommateurs d'énergie per capita? 22 23 La famille canadienne sera-t- 24 elle prête à redéfinir ses notions de luxe, confort et 25 nécessité? 26 De plus, si on dit manquer 27 d'énergie, pourquoi continue-t-on de vendre du gaz et 28 de l'huile aux américains, qui eux, de toutes façons 29 ont déja entrepris la construction d'un pipeline en 30 Alaska. Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 6884

1 2 Ne serait-il pas plus 3 profitable d'exploiter les sables bitumineux de 4 l'Alberta ou encore nos grandes réserves de charbon qui 5 sont beaucoup plus accessibles? 6 7 Troisièmement, on dit que 8 l'exploitation du gaz et de l'huile, grâce un ou à des 9 pipelines dans la vall6e du Mackenzie avantagera la 10 population -- la position, pardon, la position 11 économique et sociale des autochtones. 12 Eh bien! je crois qu'au 13 Canada, on a eu une expérience assez concluante sur ce 14 sujet. 15 16 En effet, c'est 17 l'exploitation du gaz et de l'huile en Alberta. 18 Présentement, dans cette province les indiens et les 19 métis sont peu choyés. De soixante soixante-dix pour 20 cent (60% a 70%) des personnes derrière les barreaux 21 sont des indiens et des métis. 22 23 Alors que le taux de chômage 24 moyen de la population est d'environ trois pour cent 25 (3%), celui des autochtones se situe aux alentours de 26 quatre-vingt pour cent (80%). 27 Donc, nous avons déjà dans 28 notre pays un exemple frappant de l'effet néfaste ou du 29 moins d'aucun apport positif de l'exploitation des 30 hydrocarbures sur les populations indiennes et métis. Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 6885

1 De même en tant que 2 québécois, j'aimerais faire une petite parenthèse, ici 3 nous avons une situation politique qui peut ressembler 4 quelque eudisons en petit la population, la situation 5 politique de la population nordique, en ce qui concerne 6 du moins les contestations fréquentes des décisions 7 prises par . 8 9 De plus, ici, dans 10 l'éventualité de l'élection du parti québécois, on nous 11 parle souvent d'un référendum pour savoir si oui ou non 12 le Québec veut avoir son indépendance. Eh bien je crois 13 que cette proposition d'un référendum devrait être 14 offerte aux résidents des Territoires du Nord-Ouest et 15 du Yukon pour savoir s'ils veulent oui ou non un 16 pipeline. 17 18 On se demande pourquoi on 19 veut construire un pipeline souterrain lorsque les 20 Etats-Unis ont opté d'installer leur pipeline en 21 surface et que l'URSS elle, pays qui a trois ou quatre 22 universités dans des régions arctiques pour sa part, 23 contourne complètement le permafrost. 24 25 Il serait indispensable de 26 faire des études long terme sur les effets de ce 27 pipeline souterrain. 28 En plus, le fait d'avoir un 29 pipeline ou des pipelines présents stimulerait 30 l'exploration dans la Mer de Beaufort qui est déjà Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 6886

1 menacée depuis cette année par l'exploitation 2 pétrolière. 3 Une autre parenthèse que 4 j'ainierais faire, c'est la faiblesse de la recherche 5 financée par le Gouvernement canadien par rapport la 6 racherche financée par la compagnie Foothills. 7 8 Le Gouvernement canadien a 9 donné cinq cent mille dollars ($500,000.00) pour la 10 recherche fondamentale alors que la compagnie Foothills 11 a fourni cinquante millions ($50,000,000.00). 12 13 Dernièrement, j'aimerais dire 14 que si jamais or vient à construire un pipeline ou 15 éventuellement un corridor de transport d'énergie, 16 j'espère que le Gouvernement canadien ainsi que les 17 compagnies exploitant nos richesses naturelles 18 modifieront leur manière d'exploiter le Nord canadien. 19 20 Lorsqu'on développe le Nord 21 souvent on ne songe pas â former des petites 22 communautés. On amène des célibataires ou hommes seuls 23 dans des campements. 24 25 Ces personnes n'ayant aucun 26 chez-soi pensent â amasser le magot et ensuite à 27 retourner dans le Sud. 28 On retire l'argent du Nord, 29 mais on donne :trs peu afin 4'incorprer les gens et les 30 autochtones au milieu. Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 6887

1 Un exemple frappant de cet 2 état de choses est l'exploitation de l'énergie 3 hydroélectrique de la Baie James, où on a des 4 campements separés pour hommes et pour femmes. Les 5 couples ne peuvent pas vivre ensemble, exception faite 6 des employés cadres. 7 Quel piètre entourage pour 8 des populations autochtones. 9 Donc, je crois que si cette 10 façon d'agir ne change pas, les gens qui travailleront 11 dans le Nord le mépriseront, l'exploiteront et 12 continueront à le détruire et finalement auront un 13 effect très néfaste sur les populations existantes. 14 En conclusion, on peut die 15 que la tende d'une enquête sur le pipeline démontre un 16 changement positif net dans la philosophie canadienne 17 quant à l'exploitation dur Nord et qui experons-le, 18 continuera dans la bonne direction. 19 Espérons que si le pipeline 20 est construit par les compagnies Arctic Gaz ou 21 Foothills, celles-ci ne joueront pas le rôle qu'a joue 22 la compagnie de la Baie d'Hudson. 23 Merci. 24 LE PRESIDENT: Merci. 25 (SUBMISSION OF QUEBEC CHAMBER OF COMMERCE- G. POIRIER - 26 MARKED EXHIBIT C-509) 27 28 (WITNESS ASIDE) 29 30 Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 6888

1 MR. WADDELL: Mr. 2 Commissioner, I would call upon to give the next brief 3 the member of the National Assembly for , 4 Mr. John Ciaccia. 5 JOHN CIACCIA sworn; 6 THE WITNESS: The 7 requirements of governments to develop the northern 8 areas of our country present a unique opportunity for 9 both governments and native people, not only to provide 10 for orderly development of these areas, taking of 11 course into account native needs and the preservation 12 of their way of life, but also it affords the 13 opportunity to bring solutions to many long-standing 14 problems affecting these communities. 15 The present-day mammoth 16 developments are now bringing to our attention the 17 problems of natives that have existed for many years. 18 These developments are making us aware that we must 19 abandon our traditional approach to native people. 20 Because of the magnitude of these developments and 21 their potential effects on native communities, it is 22 also necessary to find safeguards to protect them. 23 In the Inquiry which this 24 Commission is conducting with respect to the Mackenzie 25 Valley Pipeline, I believe that it would be useful to 26 examine the terms of the James Bay Agreement which has 27 dealt with many of the problems now facing the 28 communities of the Northwest Territories, and of the 29 Yukon. 30 The James Bay Agreement is an Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 6889

1 attempt to find solutions for both the existing 2 problems affecting native communities and those 3 problems created by development of the resources 4 of those regions in which these communities exist. 5 6 Some critics are genuinely 7 concerned with the conditions of the natives. Others 8 seem to give the impression that the native situation 9 is a convenient excuse to fight governments and to 10 fight any type of development. 11 On the other side of the 12 fence, and Mr. Commissioner, I know that you know and 13 I hope that the public knows that there are many 14 persons on the other side of the fence who criticize 15 the agreement because it gives too much to the 16 natives. They refuse to accept that natives still 17 practice their traditional pursuits of hunting, of 18 fishing and trapping. According to those critics, the 19 natives have used the excuse of the James Bay project 20 to hold up the government and to obtain large sums of 21 money and other advantages which they could not have 22 otherwise obtained. 23 I think that in the interest 24 of all concerned and in the interest of those who 25 negotiated the agreement, and in the interest of the 26 native people and of the government, that it is 27 important that we are aware that there are critics who 28 hold these views. I helped to negotiate this agreement. 29 I drew up the original proposals which were made public 30 by Premier in January of 1974. Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 6890

1 These proposals were 2 negotiated into an agreement in principle which was 3 signed by all the parties on November 1, 1974, and which 4 culminated in the final agreement of November 11, 19,5. 5 No deadline had been or could 6 beset to arrive at the agreement in principle. At the 7 instance of the native parties to the agreement to 8 safeguard their position in the legal proceedings which 9 were pending at that time, a deadline of one year was 10 set to reach a final agreement. 11 Prior to receiving my mandate 12 from the Premier, from Premier Robert Bourassa to 13 negotiate with the James Bay Crees and the Inuit of 14 Northern Quebec, I was the Assistant Deputy Minister of 15 Indian Affairs, I worked with native communities across 16 Canada, and with their organizations, both at the 17 provincial and national levels, and it became clear to 18 me during my work with these communities and with these 19 organizations that there was something drastically 20 wrong, not only in the physical conditions of native 21 communities but also in our approach to their problems 22 and in our relationships with native people. 23 It appeared to me that native 24 communities had been isolated and neglected. Native 25 people had been made wards of the state. Decisions 26 were made for them. The Indian Act did not give them 27 the freedom of action which was necessary to a people. 28 They did not have the proper resources to help 29 themselves. They were administered by a department 30 which was unable to deal effectively with their Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 6891

1 problems and which has made itself obsolete. They were 2 unable to participate in the decision-making process of 3 government, decisions which affected their lives and 4 their future. 5 Furthermore, developments had 6 already taken place near many native communities. 7 These developments completely passed them by and took 8 place in such a way as to further deteriorate their 9 condition. Natives were not even allowed to help 10 themselves. They had become a forgotten people. 11 The lack of involvement on 12 the part of Provincial Governments further isolated the 13 native communities. 14 During this time natives were 15 beginning to press their claims, based on aboriginal 16 rights, against the government, both federal and in 17 many cases Provincial Government. 18 It became evident to me that 19 many of the claims of various native groups across 20 Canada were well-founded in part. It also seemed 21 evident to me that the vehicle of native claims was an 22 excellent method of effecting necessary reforms with 23 respect to natives and their communities. Even if 24 some of the legal arguments in support of native 25 claims were open to interpretation, the fact remained 26 that there were very serious problems affecting native 27 communities and that government should not take a 28 legalistic approach to these claims. Further 29 development near native communities under their 30 present situation and under existing laws would Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 6892

1 further deteriorate their condition. Governments 2 should, by their response, attempt to find solutions 3 which would ameliorate the conditions of the natives 4 and provide them with the necessary resources to meet 5 the challenges of Canadian society. 6 This is the approach, Mr. 7 Commissioner, that I took to native claims in general, 8 and to the James Bay Agreement in particular. 9 On November 20, 1973, I was 10 appointed special representative of Premier Robert 11 Bourassa with respect to the claims of the Crees of the 12 James Bay area and the Inuit of Northern Quebec. 13 On November 23, 1973, I 14 submitted to the natives the 11-point proposals which 15 were later made public by Premier Bourassa in January 16 1974. 17 Let me assure you, Mr. 18 Commissioner, that the James Bay settlement was not a 19 series of hastily conceived proposals put forth by the 20 Quebec Government during the contestation of the James 21 Bay project and rammed down the throats of the James 22 Bay natives. 23 Although the initial proposal 24 left room for negotiation, the agreement was based on 25 concepts which the James Bay natives had developed 26 themselves and had put forth to both the Federal and 27 Provincial Governments long before the Court judgment 28 and long before my mandate from the Provincial 29 Government, concepts and terms which the natives had 30 been unable to obtain from either governments prior to Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 6893

1 that time. They also contained certain concepts which 2 all natives in Canada were claiming for themselves. 3 It became possible to obtain 4 the realization of these concepts and the terms of the 5 settlement because of the hydro-electric project. It 6 became possible because of the requirements of 7 development to convince the governments that it was 8 time to recognize our obligations to native people in 9 Northern Quebec and settle their claims -- not on a 10 purely narrow legalistic basis, but on a larger more 11 comprehensive basis, taking into account their special 12 circumstances and special problems. 13 The James Bay Agreement muse 14 be interpreted and understood in terms of the 15 objectives that it has, and the concepts and principles 16 that it contains. 17 This agreement is a break 18 with the past. It abandons our traditional approach to 19 natives and attempts to find new concepts, not only to 20 settle their claims, but also to effect reforms to 21 their situation. It rests on the basis that it is 22 possible to proceed with the development of the 23 territory in the interest of all the citizens of the 24 province and at the same time protect the native people 25 and respond to their needs. 26 The agreement contains 27 important principles with respect to native people, 28 many of which are recognized and accepted for the firs 29 time by governments. 30 Commissioner, it is not my Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 6894

1 intention to give an entire resume of the whole 2 agreement. It would not be possible to do so in this 3 short time that is available to us. However, I would 4 like to bring out some basic objectives of the 5 agreement and to refer to some of the provisions of the 6 agreement to illustrate how these objectives are met. 7 First of all, the agreement 8 has as one of its principal objectives the preservation 9 of the way of life of the native people by protecting 10 the traditional pursuits of the natives, those of 11 hunting, fishing and trapping, and to achieve this 12 there are four principal provisions: 13 (a) There's a hunting, fishing and trapping re- 14 gime; 15 (b) A land regime and land selection provision; 16 (c) An income security program; and 17 (d) An environmental and social protection re- 18 gime. 19 The hunting and fishing and 20 trapping regime, which has been established in favor of 21 the natives, is one of the most unique and most 22 favorable regimes for native people that can be found 23 anywhere in North America. 24 The natives are granted the 25 right to hunt, fish and trap over the entire territory 26 at all times, both for personal and community use; they 27 are granted guaranteed levels of harvesting; they are 28 granted priority of harvesting over and above the 29 guaranteed levels. They have exclusive trapping rights 30 and exclusive rights to hunt and fish certain species Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 6895

1 reserved only for the natives. 2 To review, manage and 3 administer the regime, they have a Co-ordinating 4 Committee, which is made up equally of representatives 5 from the natives and the government. 6 There is direct participation 7 of native people in the formulation and supervision of 8 laws and regulations concerning the hunting, fishing 9 and trapping activities of the entire territory for 10 natives, as well as nonnatives. This is the first time 11 that any government has accepted such a principle in an 12 area of activity which is of the utmost importance to 13 the natives. 14 The land regime must be read 15 and understood in conjunction with the hunting and 16 fishing regime. 17 The Category II lands of 18 which you are probably familiar, which totals some 19 60,000 square miles have already been selected by the 20 Crees and are in the process of selection by the Inuit 21 The income security program 22 contained in the agreement is another provision 23 designed to safeguard the traditional pursuit of the 24 natives. This program, in effect, is a guaranteed 25 annual income program for those natives who wish to 26 pursue hunting, fishing or trapping as a way of life. 27 It may well be the first guaranteed annual income 28 program for any group in North America, and is designed 29 specifically for those natives who wish to maintain 30 their traditional pursuits. Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 6896

1 (FRENCH TRANSLATION OF FOREGOING: 2 Monsieur le Juge Berger, 3 mesdames et messieurs. Premièrement, je voudrais 4 souligner que malgré qu'on m'a introduit comme le 5 député do Mont-Royal et que j'étais le représentant 6 spécial du Premier ministre dans los négociations avec 7 les autochtones de la Bale James et du Nouveau Québec, 8 los vues et les opinions quo je vais exprimer ce soir 9 ne sont pas nécessairement les vues officiellos du 10 Gouvernement du Québec, je suis ici à titre de 11 particulier et parce que Jo crois qu'il y a certaines 12 opinions, certaines vues, certains éclaircisements que 13 je pourrais fournir la Commission Berger, à la 14 commission d'enquête sur le pipeline de la Vallée du 15 Mackenzie, quant à mes expériences avec les autochtones 16 et les Cris et les Inuits de la Baie James et du 17 Nouveau-Québec. 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 6897

1 Cette entente a été le sujet 2 do beaucoup do commentaires, il y a ceux qui l'ont 3 critiquée pour une variété de raisons, il y a ceux qui 4 sont contre l'entente, parce que les autochtones out 5 été obliges do négocier pendant que le projet était en 6 construction, il y a ceux d'autre part qui disent que 7 l'entente no donne pas assez aux autochtones, d'autres 8 la critiquent, parce que l'entente permet au projet de 9 procéder, beaucoup des leaders des autochtones sont 10 contre l'entente, parce qu'il y a extinction des droits 11 dos autochtones, et d'autres s'objectent parce que 12 l'entente permet d'autres développements de prendre 13 place sur le torritoire, et finalement, il y en a 14 d'autres qui craignent quo ça va créer un prcédent pour 15 d'autres endroits et que l'entente et les termes de 16 l'entente n'empêchent pas les développements futurs. 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 6898

1 Il m'est apparu évident que 2 1usieurs des reclamations des groupes autochtones parmi 3 le Canada étaient bien fondées en partie, il n'était 4 aussi évident que le véhicule des réclamations et de 5 réglements des autochtones était une méthode excellente 6 pour effectuer los réformes nécessaires quant aux 7 autochtones et à leur cammunaute.) 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 6899

1 There are provisions 2 concerning the environmental protection and the name of 3 the regime itself is an indication of its thrust. It 4 is called. 5 "The Environmental and Social Protection Regime." 6 Impact assessment studies are mandatory in projects 7 which are recognized as having a potential impact on 8 the environment and on the natives. These studies must 9 consider and evaluate the impact, not only on the 10 physical environment, but on the social environment of 11 those to be affected. Guidelines are set forth and 12 accepted by governments respecting those factors to be 13 considered in deciding whether projects should proceed 14 or not. The governments undertake in the agreement to 15 give due consideration, for example, to the protection 16 of native people, native societies, communities and 17 economies with respect to the developmental activity 18 affecting the territory. 19 The native people are given 20 meaningful participation on the committees established 21 to review and oversee the administration and management 22 of the Environmental and Social Protection Regime, and 23 to evaluate and make decisions with respect to 24 individual future projects. 25 The agreement secondly also 26 recognizes that governments may proceed to develop our 27 resources but must do so in an orderly manner with 28 safeguards for native communities, and that the native 29 voice must be heard and must participate in the 30 structures which have power to impose conditions of Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 6900

1 development. 2 It is unrealistic to expect 3 that development will not take place- but it would be 4 callous and unjust if those developments were allowed 5 to proceed without taking into account and protecting 6 the social, cultural and economic life of the native 7 population. This, the James Bay Agreement, attempts to 8 do. 9 Thirdly, the agreement also 10 provides for the meaningful participation of natives in 11 the governmental process. 12 If the native people are to 13 remove themselves from being wards of one Federal 14 Government Department, it is essential that they 15 participate in all aspects of governmental decisions, in 16 all the important areas of governmental activities. It 17 is also essential that they relate to the communities 18 which surround them. Since many of the important 19 governmental activities in the province are under 20 provincial jurisdiction, it is therefore essential that 21 the native communities relate not only to e Federal 22 Government but also to the Provincial Government. 23 In addition to the 24 participation of the natives in the Environmental 25 Regime and in the Hunting and Fishing Regime, there are 26 structure for local and regional government. The Cree 27 Regional Authority has certain powers beyond Category I 28 lands,which are the community lands of the natives. 29 The Kativik Regional Government covers an entire region 30 north of the 55th Parallel. Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 6901

1 All of these structures 2 relate to and work with the provincial authorities, 3 with the appropriate authorities, with proper 4 safeguards, of course, relating to the control of lands 5 granted to the natives. 6 Fourthly, the agreement 7 accepts the principle that the natives must be 8 furnished with the proper resources under their control 9 and that they must be allowed to use their own 10 initiatives in managing their resources and their live 11 The $225 million which are to 12 be paid to the natives will be paid to corporations 13 which are totally controlled by the native people. 14 This was a difficult concession to obtain from the 15 Federal Government which has not entirely abandoned its 16 paternalistic approach to natives. 17 The provisions of the 18 agreement relating to the economic and social 19 development will permit those natives who so wish to 20 choose alternatives to their traditional pursuits. We 21 must offer the natives options. It is unrealistic to 22 believe that we will fossilize an entire culture. 23 Fifthly, the agreement 24 recognizes that the native people have a language and a 25 cultural heritage different from that of other 26 Canadians and accepts the principle that this language 27 and cultural heritage must be protected. 28 There are various provisions 29 recognizing the use of Cree and in 30 various official government bodies, both at the local Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 6902

1 and regional levels. This use is recognized both for 2 individuals and for the official structures of 3 government. 4 The agreement provides for 5 the creation of a Cree School Board and a Kativik 6 School Board with all the powers of a School Board 7 under provincial laws, plus certain additional powers 8 as specified in the agreement and with powers to, 9 "develop courses, text books, and materials de- 10 signed to preserve and transmit the language and 11 culture of the native people." 12 The teaching languages include both Cree and Inuit for 13 respective native communities. 14 There are special provisions 15 relating to the administration of justice and policing 16 which reflect the special needs of the Cree and Inuit. 17 For example, the Minister of Justice shall establish 18 programs to train non-native persons who are designated 19 as judges or public officers, in the particular 20 problems of the judicial district in which the natives 21 are situated, as well as respecting the usages, customs 22 and psychology of the Crees and the Inuit in the said 23 districts. 24 Sixthly, the agreement 25 provides that it takes precedence over other federal or 26 provincial legislation including the Indian Act. 27 The present Indian Act is 28 one of the major obstacles to any reform in the 29 native communities and their relationship to Canadian 30 society. No other group of persons in Canada would Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 6903

1 tolerate its provision, if applied to them. The terms 2 of the James Bay Agreement take precedence over the 3 entire Indian Act and amend many of its obsolete 4 portions. 5 The agreement also provides 6 that suitable legislation will be enacted to safeguard 7 all of those rights granted under the terms of the 8 agreement. 9 It is therefore imperative 10 that proper legislation be enacted by both the Federal 11 and Provincial Governments to guarantee the rights that 12 are granted to the natives in the agreement. The 13 agreement provides for the extinguishment of native 14 rights which, prior to the signing of the agreement, 15 were undefined, in law. This must be replaced by 16 proper legislation safeguarding the rights granted in 17 the agreement, otherwise the position of the natives 18 could be seriously jeopardized. Both governments 19 therefore must pay special attention in giving effect 20 to this provision of the agreement. 21 These, then, Mr. Commissioner, 22 are the principal objectives of the agreement. The 23 agreement has followed two guiding principles two 24 principles which I believe are of equal importance 25 1. Is that the government will utilize the resources 26 of its territory for the benefit of all of its people, 27 but must take the necessary measures to ensure the 28 orderly and rational development of these resources. 29 2. Is that we must recognize the needs of the native 30 people who have a different culture and a different way Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 6904

1 of life from those of other citizens of Canada, and 2 that necessary steps must be taken to provide for those 3 needs. 4 If governments do not develop 5 the resources of the north, this will not necessarily 6 help the natives. The contact between natives and non- 7 natives as a result of development began many years 8 ago. The harm that has already been done must be 9 undone. Failure to proceed with further development 10 will not ameliorate the tenuous relations presently 11 existing between certain native and non-native 12 communities, nor will it provide better living 13 conditions for many native communities existing in 14 poverty and on the edge of despair. 15 Without the James Bay project 16 there would be no agreement. Unfortunately, 17 governments rarely act with that degree of foresight, 18 generosity and magnanimity which many of us would 19 expect. Governments usually respond to situations and 20 in this case the response of government was made 21 necessary by the hydro-electric project. 22 For the first time, 23 governments have accepted certain concepts and certain 24 obligations which they had failed to accept previously. 25 In that sense, the agreement is a precedent. It is a 26 precedent in its principles though not necessarily in 27 its content. The principles that it contains cannot be 28 ignored, either by governments or by other natives. It 29 is to be hoped that both groups will strive to utilize 30 these principles in other areas of the country to solve Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 6905

1 the problems which face them. The natives, hopefully 2 by being realistic, and the governments, hopefully by 3 being idealistic. In that manner development can be an 4 opportunity to effect important reforms while at the 5 same time providing adequate protection to the native 6 communities. 7 Thank you, Mr. Commissioner. 8 THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you 9 very much. 10 (SUBMISSION BY J. CIACCIA MARKED EXHIBIT C-510) 11 (WITNESS ASIDE) 12 MR. WADDELL: Mr. 13 Commissioner, the next brief is from the Province of 14 Quebec Chamber of Commerce to be presented by Mr. 15 Pierre Morin. 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 6906

1 PIERRE MORIN assermenté: 2 Bonsoir, monsieur le 3 Commissaire. Alors, monsieur le Commissaire, messieurs 4 les conseillers de la Commission, le mandat que vous a 5 confié le Gouvernement du Canada d'enquêter sur 6 l'impact socio-économique et l'impact sur 7 l'environnement qu'occasionneraient la construction, 8 l'exploitation et l'abandon éventuel du gazoduc le long 9 de la vallée du Mackenzie jusqu'à l'océan Arctique est 10 un mandat historique. 11 12 Le fait que la Commission 13 siège actuellement au Québec, destination canadienne 14 ultime du gaz naturel que l'on propose de transporter 15 constitue pour nous l'assurance que cette Commission a 16 bien saisi toute l'ampleur et tout l'impact qu'aurait 17 la concrétisation de ce projet sur le pays. 18 19 L'objectif de la Chambre de 20 Commerce du Québec, ce soir, en vous soumettant ses 21 vues est d'ajouter une voix celle qui déjà se sont 22 portées en faveur du projet de transporter le gaz 23 naturel du Grand Nord vers le Sud. 24 25 La Chambre de Commerce de 26 la province de Québec est la Fédération des quelque 27 210 Chambres de Commerce et Boards of Trade actifs 28 sur tout le territoire, groupant ainsi plus de trente 29 et un mille (31,000) membres. De plus, son action 30 s'est méritée l'adhésion directe et volontaire de Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 6907

1 plus de deux mille six cents (2,600) entreprises de 2 toutes tailles faisant affaires au Quebec. 3 La Chambre ne peut vous 4 soumettre d'épais dossiers techniques pour appuyer son 5 objectif; ce n'est d'ailleurs pas ce que la Commission 6 attend de nous. 7 Nous n'allons pas, non plus, 8 tenter de vous démontrer les besoins énergétiques du 9 québec ni combien le gaz naturel est appelé à jouer un 10 rôle fondamental dans leur satisfaction. 11 12 Ceci a déjà été fait devant 13 l'Office national de l'Energie. 14 15 Nous croyons cependant que le 16 gaz naturel originant du Delta du Mackenzie peut aider 17 à satisfaire ces besoins énergétiques tout comme le 18 feront l'électricité produite à la Baie James et, 19 éventuellement le gaz naturel provenant de la région 20 des îles Ellesmere et au large de TerreNeuve. 21 22 Si de plus, l'on devait dans 23 ces régions, y découvrir du pétrole en quantités 24 exploitables, nous croyons qu'il devra être, lui aussi 25 acheminé vers les populations du Sud. 26 27 Loin de nous cependant l'idée 28 de brimer dans leurs droits, dans la mesure où ils sont 29 établis, les populations indignes, Inuit, Métis ou 30 Indiens dont les territoires seront traversés par ces Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 6908

1 oléoducs, gazoducs et manie possiblement chemin de fer. 2 3 Loin de nous, aussi l'idée de 4 voir se réaliser ce projet sans tenir compte de 5 l'environnement et de l'impact du projet sur des 6 centaines, voire des milliers d'éco-systèmes. 7 8 Ceci dit, et dans la mesure 9 où l'un ou l'autre des projets soumis sont 10 techniquement et financièrement réalisables, nous 11 croyons que le probleme fondamental posé cette 12 Commission est de se prononcer en définitive sur la 13 balance des inconvénients. 14 15 Si nous invoquons cette 16 théorie de la balance des inconvénients, c'est-à-dire 17 choisir le moindre des préjudices actuels ou 18 potentiels, c'est que le bien commun est souvent 19 difficile à cerner et quelquefois contradictoire. 20 21 Si l'on en croit le 22 Gouvernement du Canada, il veut assurer un certain 23 degré d'auto suffisance énergétique au pays. C'est là 24 une définition du bien commun. 25 Si par ailleurs l'on en croit 26 d'autres groupes, la qualité de l'environnement est le 27 bien commun et il ne peut souffrir le risque de 28 spoliation par la réalisation du projet. 29 La Chambre diverge d'opinion 30 avec ces derniers, quoique nous réalisions que la Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 6909

1 situation du Québec, en extrémité du réseau, ne le 2 place pas dans une situation économique particulière- 3 merit avantageuse. 4 Monsieur le Juge, compte tenu 5 cependant de l'importance stratégique du gaz naturel 6 dans la satisfaction de nos besoins énergétiques 7 présents et futurs et aussi de la sécurité 8 d'approvisionnement sue nous procurerait l'exploitation 9 des réserves justifiant le transport, la Chambre vous 10 soumet qu'une appréciation fondée sur la balance des 11 inconvénients favoriserait la réalisation du projet de 12 transport d'énergie de l'Arctique vers le Sud par la 13 vallée du Mackenzie. 14 Nous croyons aussi que ce 15 projet peut et doit se réaliser dans le respect des 16 droits et avec le moindre impact possible sur 17 l'environnement. 18 Je vous remercie. 19 APPLAUDISSEMENTS --- 20 LE COMMISSAIRE: Je vous 21 remercie, monsieur. 22 (WITNESS ASIDE) 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 6910

1 MR. WADDELL: Mr. 2 Commissioner, I wonder if we could hear one more brief 3 before taking a short adjournment for coffee? The 4 brief will be from the Indians of Quebec Association, 5 ad I would call upon Chief Andrew Delisle. Chief 6 Delisle will be presenting the brief, sir, and not 7 Arnold Good Leaf, as indicated. 8 9 CHIEF ANDREW DELISLE sworn; 10 THE WITNESS: Mr. Commissioner, 11 for the purposes of this brief I'd like to mention that 12 the Indians of Quebec Association is representing the 13 Abenaki people, the , the Huron people, 14 the Micmac people, and the , and the 15 Montagnais people of Quebec. 16 Since the exploitation in 17 this regard for lands and resources in the south, the 18 north has come into focus. In the area in question 19 the Northwest Territories, the majority of the 20 population consists of Dene people numbering 21 approximately 20,000 people. Are 20,000 that easy to 22 disregard? The basis for the Dene land claim , as in 23 all other land claims throughout Canada, is the 24 concept of aboriginal rights. 25 Aboriginal rights are rights 26 to the land which apply to Indian people by virtue of 27 their occupation of certain lands from time immemorial. 28 The basic guarantee of aboriginal rights ensures Indian 29 people the right to live on and use the land without 30 interference from anyone. It also guarantees Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 6911

1 compensation in cases where the Indian people choose to 2 give up their rights to the land. 3 Unfortunately, the policies 4 regarding aboriginal rights were all drawn up by the 5 European nations, who had their own interpretation of 6 aboriginal rights without attempting to understand the. 7 Indian concept. The Dene people are now making their 8 own interpretation of aboriginal rights. 9 Furthermore, the p01 icy 10 drawn up by European nations naturally reflect the 11 political and commercial interests of those nations and 12 still hold to this day and continue to form the basis 13 of Court decisions in cases where aboriginal rights are 14 in question. 15 The Dene people of Canada's 16 Northwest Territories have laid legal claim to some 17 450,000 square miles of the Northwest Territories. 18 Their claim is based on intensive use of this land by 19 themselves and their ancestors from time immemorial up 20 to the present day, and on the fact that none of this 21 land has ever been validly surrendered by treaty. 22 The Dene people, along with 23 the Indians of Quebec Association believe that there is 24 a definite need for progress, but this progress should 25 only be made when Indian people have been assured of 26 their existence. In simple terms, there should be a 27 land settlement before any development begins. The 28 Indians of Quebec Association believes the Dene people 29 should not be forced into agreements like the one 30 signed with the Cree and Inuit for James Bay, and with Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 6912

1 the Mohawks for the St. Lawrence Seaway. 2 Cree and Inuit people gave up 3 approximately 400,000 square miles of land for about 4 $150 million. Also the agreement gives many provisions 5 that will be very benefitting to the Cree and Inuit 6 people; but it contains one article that will hurt the 7 Indian and Inuit people of Northern Quebec forever, In 8 simple terms that article states that in exchange for 9 all the money and provisions, the Indians and Inuit 10 will extinguish all their rights to the land in 11 Northern Quebec and Canada. The Indians of Quebec feel 12 that this was a very wrong done to Indian people and 13 strongly urges the Dene nation to avoid any agreement 14 that might contain such an article with. diverse 15 interpretations and far-reaching effects 16 The Indians of Quebec 17 Association did not support this agreement then, does 18 not support it now, and will never support it in the 19 future. The Indians of Quebec Association dearly 20 supports the Dene people in that there should be no 21 settlement containing provisions for the extinguishment 22 of aboriginal rights. 23 The Indians of Quebec 24 Association is attacking the procedure in which the 25 James Bay Agreement was brought about, that is the 26 government's decision to go ahead with the James Bay 27 development project had already been taken without 28 any consultation with the aboriginal people of that 29 area. Negotiations had started when much of the 30 development was already taking place, and only after Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 6913

1 the government had been bullied into negotiating with 2 the Cree and Inuit. Indians were told that if they did 3 not accept the agreement, then Parliament would pass 4 legislation taking away their lands and they would have 5 to settle for nothing. 6 The Mackenzie Valley Pipeline 7 Inquiry should use all its powers in its authority, to 8 see that this must not happen to the Dene people of the 9 Northwest Territories. When a project of such 10 magnitude is introduced, the Indian people of the south 11 look at the St. Lawrence Seaway .in the same way as 12 the Indian people of the north view the Mackenzie 13 Valley Pipeline. During construction of the St. 14 Lawrence Seaway, no agreements were made with the 15 Indian people, only token guarantees of job 16 opportunities and restoration of the land to its 17 original state. Granted, there was a short employment 18 boom but now the only Indians working for the Seaway 19 are janitors and maintenance men. never will you see 20 an Indian holding a key position with the Seaway. The 21 Seaway caused extensive erosion of land, Indian lands, 22 ruining reserve fishing and many acres of farmland were 23 ruined from dumping from dredging of the river bottom. 24 Indian lands were depleted in size, and any monetary 25 transactions for the land were far below market value 26 of land that was lost. 27 In the Northwest Territories 28 the economic boom for the years of construction will no 29 doubt cause a dependency on the luxuries of life which 30 will disrupt the whole Indian way of life. The people Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 6914

1 will enjoy a period of monetary prosperity, then all of 2 a sudden it will be over. Money will cause 3 assimilation into welfareism when Indians opt for 4 the monetary system instead of the normal Indian 5 way of life, as is evidenced by exploitation in the 6 south. 7 Development of the Seaway, as 8 well as James Bay, was well under way when the Indians 9 finally realized what was happening. The Indians had 10 to salvage anything they could from this hopeless 11 situation. Indian people are still negotiating over 12 the St. Lawrence Seaway, 20 years ago and the James 13 Bay project. 14 The Dens people have seen 15 this happen and are strenuously hoping to avoid a 16 repeat of this. The so-called authority of the Indian 17 people will be eroded with the influx of southern 18 people in the Territory, who in turn by their majority 19 will pressure the government into making changes to 20 suit their demands at the expense of the Indian people. 21 Should there not be a constitutional guarantee that 22 this does not happen? Because that is what has 23 happened in the south. 24 We wonder why the Federal 25 Government would commission such an Inquiry when they 26 have already made the decision to go ahead with the 27 pipeline. It seems that this Inquiry is being conducted 28 to ease the conscience of the Federal Government. Many 29 officials have already stated that the interests of the 30 Indian people in the north will not stand in the way of Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 6915

1 technical progress. It also seems the Old West 2 mentality still exists, where prospectors can go into 3 the frontier and claim the land as their own, as long as 4 they are the first white person there, without respect 5 to the original inhabitants. That sort of thinking 6 should have gone out with the old cowboys and Indians 7 era. 8 Indians have defined their 9 own theory of aboriginal rights, which was recognized 10 by the Morrow and Malouf decisions ruling that Indians 11 do have legal claim to the land. Despite those Court 12 decisions, government will threaten to pass a 13 convenient piece of legislation enabling them to go 14 ahead with development for the greater good of Canada 15 at the expense of Indians, Indian lands and Indian 16 rights. 17 There must always be 18 Indians and Indian land, exclusively under the 19 jurisdiction of the Indian people. Canada is 20 obliged to protect these people and these lands. We 21 feel that our arguments are justified and any 22 decision will not only affect Indian people but also 23 the Canadian populace. One thing that should be 24 kept in your mind is that Indian people are human, 25 with the basic needs of any person. 26 Indian people have been 27 trying to live in harmony with the white people for 28 many, many years, but in Canadian society they have the 29 poorest housing, poorest health, highest unemployment, 30 most alcoholics and most people in jail. We feel this Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 6916

1 is so because of the reluctance of the non-Indians to 2 consider and understand present Indian demands and 3 values. 4 The Dene Declaration is a 5 statement of the people as to how they intend to 6 preserve and protect their culture and their lands. 7 Gas and oil will protect some of your necessities, and 8 a lot of your luxuries; but we're trying to protect a 9 nation of people. 10 It is a declaration of 11 jurisdiction based on aboriginal rights. The Dene 12 people and the Government of Canada realize that no 13 nation today is completely independent. The Dene 14 desire to establish a relationship within the framework 15 of one Canada, the establishment of this relationship 16 should precede any major development in the Northwest 17 Territories. 18 The Dene have focused their 19 attention on land claims for the purpose of maintaining 20 and preserving their heritage and culture for their 21 future generations. But not for the sole purpose of 22 stopping development or creating a power play to enhance 23 the financial compensation in their land claims. 24 What has happened to Indian 25 people where development and exploitation has already 26 taken place) namely in the south of Canada? Because 27 there was no consideration for the Indian people, we 28 are obliged to, when we want to feed ourselves we have 29 to receive permission from the Hunting & Fishing lodge 30 operators, then from the Provincial Government, then Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 6917

1 have the approval of the Federal Government; always at 2 one level permission is refused. Then we are forced to 3 rely on welfare. 4 When we want to build a house 5 we have to obtain the permission of the lumber 6 companies, then from the Provincial Government, and 7 then the approval of the Federal Government; always the 8 permission is refused and then we have to rely on 9 welfare housing. 10 When we want an education we 11 have to comply to demands of Non-Indian School Boards, 12 then the demands of the Provincial Government, then 13 obtain the approval again from the Federal Government; 14 always the form of education provides that we become 15 non-Indian with no means to use the education to help 16 ourselves. The result-- welfare. 17 When we want to govern 18 ourselves, we have to get the permission of the 19 Department of Indian Affairs, accept the dictates of t 20 hp Government, which in turn obtains the approval of 21 the Provincial Government; always we are told that we 22 are not capable or that our demands do not suit the 23 needs of the general Canadian population. Result -- 24 dependence on welfare. 25 When we want to develop our 26 lands, we have to get the permission of the Federal 27 Government. Always we are told the land is not 28 really ours, but belongs either to the Crown of the 29 province the Crown of Canada, or that in order to 30 develop our land we have to become non-Indian by Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 6918

1 forming companies which are non-Indian in identity. 2 Result -- misunderstanding, dependence and welfare. 3 When we die we practically 4 do so with the permission of the governing peoples 5 because they dictate our existence. Always we die and 6 leave our people with the same frustrations. Result 7 welfare. 8 This generation of people, 9 yours and ours, should act now so that before we pass 10 from this world we may see the first major step towards 11 the true preservation and protection of a people and 12 the land. Will the imposition of a pipeline resolve 13 these problems? 14 Indian people consider the 15 white man to be greedy. Will the imposition of a 16 pipeline change that thinking? Thank you. 17 (WITNESS ASIDE) 18 MR. WADDELL: Mr. 19 Commissioner. I've been handed a brief to be filed. 20 It's from Helen Silverman, formerly of the University 21 of Toronto, and it deals with her views on the beluga 22 whales in the Beaufort Sea, and I'd like to file that 23 with Miss Hutchinson. 24 (SUBMISSION OF HELEN SILVERMAN MARKED EXHIBIT C-511) 25 MR. WADDELL: It will be 26 about ten minutes before the coffee is ready, and I 27 wonder if we could have a brief in that period? I 28 would call then upon Sid Beck, the Sid Beck brief to be 29 presented by Mr. Jean-Paul Perras. That's P-E-R-I-A-S. 30 Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 6919

1 JEAN-PAUL PERRAS assermenté: 2 Monsieur le Juge, mesdames et 3 messieurs, permettez-moi de me présenter: Je m'appelle 4 Jean-Paul Perras et je suis ici titre de gérant achats 5 de fournitures et de services chez SIDBEC-DOSCO 6 LIMITEE. 7 Une copie écrite de cette 8 déposition a été remise votre Commission avec une 9 traduction, monsieur le Juge. 10 J'aimerais vous décrire parmi 11 mes responsabilités chez SIDBEC-DOSCO LIMITÉE, celles 12 qui sont plus particulierement pertinentes l'objet de 13 cette déposition. 14 15 Entre autres choses, c'est 16 mon service qu'il incombe d'assurer SIDBEC un 17 approvisionnement adéquat et continu, j'insiste sur le 18 mot continu, des diverses formes d'énergie nécessaires 19 â ses activités et de façon plus pertinente et plus 20 spécifique, de lui assurer un approvisionnement adéquat 21 et continu en gaz naturel. 22 23 Vous me permettrez aussi de 24 vous décrire brièvement notre société et ses objectifs, 25 afin de bien établir la pertinence de son intervention 26 devant votre Commission. 27 28 SIDBEC, dont tout le 29 capitalactions est la propriété du Gouvernement du 30 Québec, a été constituée en corporation en mil neuf Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 6920

1 cent soixante-quatre (1964) afin d'assurer 2 l'implantation au Québec d'un complexe sidérurgique 3 intégré et de répondre prioritairement aux besoins du 4 Québec en acier. 5 Il s'agissait de la sorte 6 aussi de corriger un déséquilibre dans le développement 7 industriel de la province. 8 Toutefois, malgré l'urgence 9 de ces impératifs, SIDBEC a dû s'incliner devant 10 d'autres exigences, et d'autres impératifs d'ordre 11 technique et économique cette fois, et s'implanter par 12 étapes modestes. Cela a imposé le double choix et du 13 procédé de four électrique et du procédé de réduction 14 directe du minerai c'est-à-dire l'extraction de 15 l'oxygène du minerai. 16 17 Le procédé de réduction 18 directe alors choisi fut celui de la réduction directe 19 au moyen du gaz naturel. 20 21 Ce procédé permettait une 22 utilisation très efficace et très économique du gaz 23 naturel. Et, de plus, c'était et c'est toujours l'agent 24 réducteur le moins polluant. 25 26 A toutes fins pratiques, en 27 mil neuf cent soixante-dix (1970), c'était vraiment le 28 seul agent réducteur qui s'offrait à SIDBEC. Nous 29 n'avions pas le choix. Et, d'ailleurs, nous ne l'avons 30 toujours pas. Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 6921

1 Soulignons aussi l'usage que 2 SIDBEC en fait est principalement chimique ce qui 3 représente environ quatre-vingt-dix pour cent (90%) du 4 volume total pour mil neuf cent quatre-vingt-cinq 5 (1985). 6 Durant les cinq (5) dernières 7 années, SIDBEC a connu une expansion qui a nécessité 8 des immobilisations de quelque deux cent millions 9 ($200,000,000.00) de dollars. 10 11 Pourtant le complexe ainsi 12 mis en place ne produira que sept pour cent (7%) de 13 l'acier produit au Canada alors que la consommation du 14 Québec s'élève environ vingt-six pour cent (26%) de la 15 consommation canadienne. 16 17 Quelques mots maintenant sur 18 la consommation actuelle et future de SIDBEC en gaz 19 naturel. 20 21 Lorsque ce que nous appelons 22 les phases III et IV de nos projets d'expansion auront 23 été réalisées vers mil neuf cent quatre-vingt-cinq 24 (1985), SIDBEC aura doublé sa consommation de gaz 25 naturel. C'est donc dire qu'elle sera passée d'une 26 cadence annuelle de huit (8) BCF en mil neuf cent 27 soixante-quinze (1975), une cadence de dix-sept (17) 28 BCF en mil neuf cent soixante-dix-sept (1977) pour 29 finalement atteindre une cadence annuelle de quarante- 30 trois (43) BCF en mil neuf cent quatre-vingt-cinq Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 6922

1 (1985) environ, c'est â-dire quarante-trois milliards 2 (43,000,000,000) de pieds cubes par année. 3 4 Après les années mil neuf 5 cent quatre-vingt-quatre/mil neuf cent quatre-vingt- 6 cinq (1984/1985), nous prévoyons que le développement 7 normal de notre entreprise, c'est-i'dire toute 8 expansion majeure exceptëe, entraînera une augmentation 9 de notre consommation de gaz naturel d'au moins cinq 10 pour cent (5%) par année. 11 12 Voici maintenant quelques 13 commentaires que SIDBEC veut apporter dans le cadre de 14 cette enquête. 15 A notre avis, pour faire face 16 la pénurie de gaz naturel appréhendée pour les années 17 mil neuf cent quatre-vingt/mil neuf cent quatre-vingt- 18 deux (1980/1982) et combler adéquatement les besoins 19 pressants de SIDEEC en gaz naturel, tout doit tendre â 20 trouver des réponses rapides et valables aux questions 21 posées par la mise en place dans les Territoires du 22 Nord-Ouest et le Yukon des pipelines nécessités pour 23 l'acheminement du gaz naturel de ces régions vers l'Est 24 du pays et notamment vers le Québec. 25 26 Il nous faut faire vite, très 27 vite et très bien. 28 29 Tout doit donc être mis en 30 oeuvre pour régler de front et au plus tôt les re- Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 6923

1 vendications légitimes des autochtones, respecter 2 l'environnement et préserver l'équilibre écologique de 3 ces régions tout en accédant la fois aux aspirations et 4 aux besoins du Nord et du Sud du pays, sans causer 5 préjudice l'une ou l'autre des parties. 6 7 Tout retard à trancher ces 8 questions entraînerait, selon nous, unretard dans la 9 livraison du gaz du Mackenzie; ce qui, par ricochet, 10 serait néfaste pour SIDBEC, pour l'économie du Québec 11 et celle du Canada tout entier. 12 13 Quant aux conséquences 14 sociales qu'une telle pénurie déclencherait, elles sont 15 alarmantes. 16 17 Or, il est de plus en plus 18 certain que nous occasionnerons des retards si nous 19 toutous plutôt de régler cs problemes les, uns apres 20 les autres ou d'en reporter les solutions à plus tard. 21 22 Dans toute cette affaira, 23 pour SIDBEC, l'échéancier est en effet tres important. 24 25 Une saine planification des 26 activités et de l'expansion de SIDBEC exige que nous 27 ayions en main toutes les données requises au moins dix 28 ans (10) â l'avance, ceci signifie qu'il nous faut à 29 tout prix, éliminer toute incertitude quant à 30 l'approvisionnement de SIDBEC en gaz naturel durant les Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 6924

1 années quatre-vingt ('80). 2 3 L'on peut se demander si la 4 satisfaction partielle des besoins en gaz naturel de 5 SIDBEC serait une solution adéquate. 6 7 Et, à ceci nous devons 8 répondre qu'il n'en est rien, car on ne peut songer 9 sans vertige aux conséquences désastreuses d'une 10 pénurie soit totale, soit partielle de gaz naturel. 11 12 Les approvisionnements dé gaz 13 naturel disponibles doivent. être, adéquats pour la 14 protection non seulement des investissements déjà 15 effectués, mais aussi de ceux pour lesquels nous nous 16 engageons actuellement chaque jour. 17 18 Il est donc impérieux de nous 19 ménager une planification harmonieuse, sereine et sans 20 heurt, si nous voulons éviter des réveils brutaux et 21 des remous économiques désastreux, 22 Pour SIDBEC, cette question 23 d'approvisionnements garantis, en volumes adéquats et 24 en temps voulu, est vital, puisque le gaz naturel est 25 indispensable dans notre procédé de réduction. 26 Un Canada responsable ne peut 27 donc accepter de ne satisfaire lui-même qu'à une partie 28 de ses besoins énergétiques et de se fier pour le reste 29 au hasard des solutions fortuites de dernière heure. 30 La santé de SIDBEC est Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 6925

1 importante pour le Québec et un Québec fort est 2 important pour le Canada. 3 4 SIDBEC est sans doute le plus 5 grand consommateur de gaz naturel au Québec avec des 6 besoins concrets et bien réels dans l'immédiat, qui 7 iront croissants durant les prochaines années. 8 9 Elle doit donc pouvoir 10 compter sur des approvisionnements ininterrompus et en 11 volumes adéquats. 12 Il s'ensuit que SIDBEC ne 13 peut être indifférente à tout ce qui affectera sa 14 viabilité de demain et doit donc prendre tous les 15 moyens afin de l'assurer. 16 17 C'est ainsi qu'en 18 collaboration avec SOQUIP aussi bien que par ses 19 propres moyens SIDBEC essaie de s'approvisionner 20 directement dans l'Ouest canadien en achetant certaines 21 riserves de gaz naturel tout em espérant que ces 22 efforts conjugés nous permettront d'attendre l'arrivée 23 sur nos marchés du gaz naturel de la Vallée du 24 Mackenzie qui, à ce jour, est le seul qui promet de 25 rencontrer adéquatement les besoins de l'économie 26 canadienne dans des délais et à des coûts acceptables. 27 28 On pout également se demander 29 si cette urgence à trouver des solutions valables pour 30 l'ensemble du Canada devrait prévaloir à tout prix? Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 6926

1 Disons qu'elle dit prévaloir, 2 oui; mais non pas à n'importe quel prix. 3 4 L'urgence qu'il y a à 5 protéger les droits des populations du Sud et de l'Est 6 ne doit pas nous faire oublier l'urgence qu'il y a de 7 protéger les droits des populations du Nord-Ouest et du 8 Yukon. 9 Les conséquences de la 10 protection des intérêts de l'un aux dépens de l'autre 11 sont politiquement non rentables, la décisiofl de ne 12 prter l'oreille qu'à un des groupes est socialement 13 indéfendable, et las coûts rattachés à l'inaction sont 14 économiquement inacceptables. 15 16 Mais, nous voulons souligner 17 que pour SIDBEC, il existe un seuil au-delà duquel le 18 coût du gaz naturel deviendrait prohibitif. 19 Toutes les solutions 20 envisagées doivent donc s'inscrire dans les iimtes du 21 raisonnable, de l'accessible, du juste et du pondéré. 22 Enfin, en guise de 23 conclusion, monsieur le Juge, SIDBEC croît en 24 interdépendane des économies des diverses régions du 25 Canada. 26 Tout ce qui affectera le 27 Nord, comme vous le disiez au début de la séance, ce 28 soir, affectera le Sud et vice versa. 29 Chacun de nous doit pouvoir 30 se développer selon son propre idéal et selon sa propre Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 6927

1 voie à même nos propres richesses naturelles. 2 3 Mais, tout on respectant ce 4 droit, il serait déraisonnable et suicidaire de 5 permettre à d'aucuns d'enrayer le développement des 6 ressources du Nord-Ouest et du Yukon, 7 quandl'alternative aberrante est d'être de plus en plus 8 à la merci de sources étrangères d'énergie pour assurer 9 le développement de notre propre économie nationale. 10 Nous devons donc nous dégager 11 d'un tel joug, nous soustraire aux soubresauts de 12 l'aléatoire et essayer de trouver un meilleur équilibre 13 â nos sources d'approvisionnements en énergie. 14 Et, nous soumettons â votre 15 réflexion que c'est par la voie du compromis que nous y 16 parviendrons. 17 En terminant, je voudrais 18 dire à Fred Andrew de Fort Norman, un Dene qui a déjà 19 déposé devant vous, monsieur le Juge, que nous sommes 20 prêts à payer notre passage chez lui, un juste prix et 21 raisonnable, et que, loin de nous diviser, les 22 problèmes que nous affrontons devraient nous unir. 23 24 Tendons-nous la main au- 25 dessus des difficultés et dans une mime volonté 26 nationale tentons d'accéder â notre épanouissement 27 mutuel. 28 Nous vous remercions, monsieur 29 le Juge, de votre attention et de cette occasion 30 qui nous a été donnée de faire entendre le point de vue Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 6928

1 de SIDBEC un des plus importants consommateurs du gaz 2 naturel au Québec, au service de plus d'un quart de la 3 poplatìon canadienne. 4 Merci. 5 APPLAUDISSEMENTS --- 6 7 (SUBMISSION BY SIDBEC-DOSCO LIMITED J.P. PERRAS - 8 MARKED EXHIBIT C-512) 9 (WITNESS ASIDE) 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 6929

1 MR. WADDELL: Mr. 2 Commissioner, we'd like to invite the people who have 3 come tonight to take a short break with us, and I 4 underline "short", about ten minutes. We have provided 5 coffee for them, so we hope they'll stay within the 6 time limit of the short break; and after the break, 7 sir, the first brief from Mr. Gibbi ns and Mr. Ponting 8 with deal with an attitudinal study they've done across 9 Canada on Canadian attitudes to the northern 10 development. 11 Shall we take a ten-minute 12 break then? 13 THE COMMISSIONER: All right. 14 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED FOR TEN MINUTES) 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 6930

1 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO ADJOURNMENT) 2 MR. WADDELL: Mr. 3 Commissioner our next brief is from Roger Gibbins from 4 the Faculty of Arts and Sciences -- Political Science 5 at the University of Calgary, and Mr. Rick Ponting from 6 the Sociology Department at the University and Mr. 7 Ponting will be presenting the brief sir. 8 I should explain the reason 9 the brief is being presented here is that the data was 10 still being prepared while we were sitting in Calgary 11 and the two gentleman are here. 12 J RICK PONTING sworn; 13 THE COMMISSIONER: I guess 14 that's a sufficient explanation. 15 Well, go ahead) sir, and 16 whenever we're going to look at the screen let me know 17 and I'll take a seat with -- 18 THE WITNESS: Mr. 19 Commissioner do you have a copy of the brief in front 20 of you? It would probably be more convenient for you 21 to simply refer to the appropriate pages. 22 Mr. Commissioner, in the 23 southern phase of your hearings, you have received 24 submissions which have conveyed the views of individual 25 southerners. However, a definite limitation has been 26 that you have had no way of ascertaining just how 27 representative those individuals are. The question 28 that must remain after their respective presentations 29 is, how typical or atypical are their remarks of the 30 thinking of southern Canadians on the issues upon which Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 6931

1 you must make recommendations 2 Tonight we wish to present to 3 you opinions and attitudes, the representativeness of 4 which can be ascertained. We have conducted a 5 nationwide public opinion survey using scientifically 6 designed and professionally endorsed methods of 7 selecting respondents. These methods are designed to 8 ensure the greatest degree of representativeness that 9 is humanly possible. Thus, the data which. we shall 10 present tonight are highly representative of the 11 opinions and attitudes of all non-Indian adult resident 12 of Canada, south of the 60th parallel of latitude. 13 By means of these data, we wish 14 to do two things tonight. First, we wish to report to 15 you on the relative priorities which southern Canadians 16 place upon three major concerns of your Inquiry; first 17 the protection of the natural environment; secondly the 18 protection of the interests of the native people; and 19 thirdly, economic development. 20 THE COMMISSIONER: Is that 21 the natural environment? 22 A Yes, it should be. My 23 apologies. 24 Secondly, and we'll approach 25 this in less detail due to time constraints tonight, we 26 wish to identify just who holds what opinions. That 27 is, to identify some of the background characteristics 28 of the people who hold the different opinions on these 29 three matters and to show how opinions differ-from one 30 part of Canada to another. Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 6932

1 Before doing so however, we 2 wish to emphasize that we do not intend to personally 3 take an advocacy stance in our brief. We shall simply 4 convey to you the opinions and views of Canadians and 5 relate those views to some of the themes that have 6 arisen during the course of your southern hearings. 7 We'll begin by describing the 8 source of the information which we shall be which 9 presenting tonight. The data upon this brief is based 10 are derived from a nationwide survey of public 11 awareness of, and opinion toward native Indian issues 12 in Canada today. The study was made possible by a 13 $40,000 grant from the Donner Canadian Foundation and a 14 $5,000 grant from the University of Calgary. 15 The data were collected under 16 our direction by a commercial polling firm, using a 17 questionnaire which we as social scientists constructed 18 and pretested ourselves. The sample, which is 19 unusually large consists of 1,832 persons aged 18 or 20 over, randomly selected by professionally approved 21 methods from among those living south of the 60th 22 parallel of latitude from St. John's to Victoria. 23 Statistically speaking, a 24 sample of this size allows us to make inferences about 25 the opinions of the larger Canadian population which it 26 represents with very high levels of confidence or 27 otherwise put, with a very low probability of error. A 28 comparison of some of the relevant demographic charac- 29 teristics of our sample and those of the larger 30 Canadian population is contained in Appendix A while Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 6933

1 Appendix B contains a list of the cities and the towns 2 and rural areas from which our respondents were drawn. 3 Respondents were selected 4 through a multi-staged process whereby first the city 5 or town or rural area was selected, then geographical 6 areas within that city or town, then households within 7 those geographical areas and finally individuals within 8 those households. This process of selection(and this 9 is rather important in sampling procedure), this 10 process of selection was random at every stage and 11 therefore does not contain the build-in biases of say a 12 telephone sample. The only source of sampling bias in 13 our sample would be the possibility of differential 14 refusal rates among different types of people. 15 The data themselves were not 16 collected by telephone or mailed questionnaire but 17 rather through face to face personal interviews 18 conducted in the respondent's home by trained and 19 supervised interviewers. Each interviewer had a quota 20 of interviews to conduct in accordance with these 21 aforementioned sampling procedures. A subsample of 22 interviews was verified by each local supervisor. 23 The interviews themselves 24 lasted about an hour and were conducted in the language 25 of the respondent's choice -- French or English. Inter 26 viewing in English Canada was conducted this year 27 during the period January 8th through February 25th, 28 while interviewing in French Canada occurred in the 29 period February 12th throughout to March 4th. Thus, 30 the data are current. Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 6934

1 I'll proceed now to examine 2 our findings then. The main thrust of our brief 3 revolves around the answers to two questions which were 4 the sixth questions in our the sixth and seventh 5 questions in our study. These dealt explicitly with 6 the construction of the proposed Mackenzie Valley 7 Pipeline. The first of the these was a simple 8 awareness question in which we asked the respondents: 9 "Have you heard about the planned construction of a 10 Mackenzie Valley Pipeline?" Those who had heard about 11 the pipeline were then asked the follow-up question for 12 which we would like to put the wording on the screen 13 now. For those who are unable. to see the screen, 14 I'll just read it off here quickly: 15 "Here is a list of problems that have been raised 16 in connection with the building of the pipeline." 17 I'm afraid I can't see it. Thank you. 18 "Please read the list and rank the problems in 19 what you feel is the order of their importance. 20 The no t important would be #1 and so on through 21 #5 for the least important. 22 A. Protection of the natural environment. 23 B. Protection of the way of life of the native 24 people in the Mackenzie Valley. 25 C. Production of energy as cheaply as possible. 26 D. Guaranteeing that the pipeline is owned by 27 Canadians. 28 E. Guaranteeing that Canadian energy needs are 29 met before any gas is sold to the United States." 30 I might also mention that the order in which these Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 6935

1 five problems was presented was rotated in different 2 questionnaires but the same five problems were pre- 3 sented each time. 4 We found that the majority of 5 our sample, which is to say about 63% had in fact beard 6 about the pipeline. Just to summarize -- 7 Q Excuse me, and you 8 questioned people -- you questioned Anglophones in 9 January and February and Francophones in February and 10 March this year? 11 A Yes, we completed on 12 March 4th. Just to summarize the characteristics of 13 those people who had high levels of awareness of the 14 pipeline, we can do that very briefly. Table 1 shows 15 the provincial breakdown in your brief. It's on page 16 20 Mr. Commissioner. 17 Q I will just sit here. 18 A O.K. There were high 19 levels of awareness in Ontario and the western province 20 and somewhat lower levels of awareness of the planned 21 construction of the pipeline -- or proposed 22 construction of the pipeline in the other eastern 23 provinces. In data that we're not presenting right now 24 in tabular form, we found that Anglophones had much 25 higher levels of awareness than Francophones, that 26 males had significantly higher levels of awareness than 27 females and that those with a high level of formal 28 education had significantly higher levels of awareness 29 of the pipeline than did those with low levels of 30 formal education. Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 6936

1 The surprising finding though 2 about the answers to this longer follow-up question was 3 that the cheap production of energy was not a high 4 priority for Canadians when considered in the context 5 of other problems involved in the construction of the 6 pipeline. In fact, not only was it not ranked high, it 7 was actually given the lowest priority of. all the 8 five problems, What is clear from the results of this 9 question is that southern Canadians attach the most 10 importance to the protection of the natural environment 11 as shown in Table 2A where we list the percentage of 12 the sample, selecting each problem as first priority, 13 the percent selecting each problem as second priority 14 and so on. Figure 1 on page 31 of the written brief 15 portrays much of the same information in the form of a 16 bar graph. This is figure 1 here. 17 From the previous Table 2A 18 and more easily from this figure, you can see that most 19 important problem to our respondents is protection of 20 the natural environment. This is even ranked above the 21 guaranteeing that Canada's energy needs are met before 22 any gas is exported to the United States. The 23 protection of the way of life of the native people of 24 the Mackenzie Valley is ranked third although when we 25 consider only first and second priorities, it surpasses 26 in importance all other problems except the protection 27 of the natural environment. 28 Q Excuse me, I don't 29 understand that. 30 A In this table, we have Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 6937

1 considered for each problem , we have broken the data 2 down in three different ways. In the left-hand column, 3 the smallest one, we have taken the percentage of all 4 respondents who ranked that problem as the one that 5 they considered should have the greatest degree of 6 importance or should be the most important. In the 7 second column, we have included all those respondents 8 who rank each problem as being either the first or the 9 second most important of the list of five which we gave 10 them and in the third column, the tallest one for each 11 of the five problems, we give the percentage of the 12 respondents who ranked it either first or second or 13 third in importance. 14 I would refer you to Table 28 15 on page 22 of the written brief for provincial 16 breakdowns of this data, which is to say how people in 17 different provinces reacted to this question of 18 priorities. From that table, 28, we would see that 19 people in different provinces may hold different 20 priorities and we are led to ask the question, what 21 other characteristics of an individual besides his or 22 her province of residence, affect the priorities which 23 he or she assigns to these different problems 24 associated with the pipeline?." We have answered this 25 question in the written brief on pages seven to ten in 26 Tables 2C through 2E and in figures two to four and in 27 the interests of conserving. time we'll not discuss 28 them here tonight but would refer you to those pages. 29 Our questionnaire also 30 contained other questions which are of relevance to Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 6938

1 this Commission. One of these was another ranking 2 question which occurred first in the questionnaire. 3 This question presented a slate of "several problems 4 facing Canada today", That's the way we presented it, 5 phrased it to the respondents and we asked them which 6 problem they felt should be given the first priority, 7 which should be given second priority and so on through 8 the lowest priority. Again, rather than reporting in 9 detail on all five of these problems, we wish to simply 10 show you the overall distribution which is contained in 11 Table 3A in the brief and we wish also to focus once on 12 the native people. 13 Overall, the data show that 14 inflation is given top priority by Canadians, followed 15 in order by: Conservation of energy, thirdly, the 16 social and economic problems of Canada's Indians and 17 Eskimos (and we did use the word "Eskimos" there 18 rather, than "Inuit" because we were concerned that 19 large percentage of the population might not understand 20 the meaning of the word "Inuit"). The fourthly ranked 21 problem was greater independence of Canada from the 22 United States and the lowest ranked problem, 23 interestingly, was the rights women in Canada. 24 Q Excuse me, you chose 25 those problems -- 26 A Yes we did. 27 Q -- and asked them to 28 rank them. Yes, I follow you. 29 A Yes. We do have other 30 questions where we provided an opportunity for Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 6939

1 respondents to give answers that were not in closed 2 ended form, which is to say to suggest their own 3 answers. 4 Given the gravity of the other 5 problems included in the list it is not surprising, that 6 few Canadians ranked the problems of Indians and Eskimos 7 as their first priority yet you can see from the third 8 row in Table 3A that approximately half or the figure 9 there is 48% of our respondents ranked the social and 10 economic problems of Canada's Indians and Eskimos as one 11 of their top three priorities in the list of these five 12 problems. This compares very favorably with the priority 13 assigned to the problems of another much larger 14 subordinated group in our society, namely women. The 15 table shows that only about. 1/3 or 32.2% of our 16 respondents ranked the rights of women in Canada as one 17 of the first three priorities. Even among the women in 18 our sample, Indian and Eskimo problems were assigned a 19 higher overall priority than that assigned to the rights 20 of women in Canada. 21 I would refer you also to Table 22 3B on page 27 of the written brief, for a breakdown of 23 answers to this question by province again. 24 Before stating our 25 conclusions we should like to mention the results to 26 three questions which deal with the opinions of 27 southern Canadians on another one of your Commission's 28 main concerns, that is the natural environment. The 29 first of these three questions simply said: 30 "In recent years, there has been a lot of atten- Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 6940

1 tion paid to protecting the natural environment. 2 Do you feel that the Federal Government should do 3 more to protect the environment, is doing enough 4 already, or is already doing too much?" 5 Table 4A on page 28 of the written brief gives the re- 6 sponses for Canada as .a whole as well as the provin- 7 cial breakdowns. As you can see, only a tiny minority 8 of people feel that the Federal Government is doing 9 too much while a strong majority in each province or 10 region provide a mandate for the Federal Government to 11 do more to protect the environment. However, the 12 skeptic may argue that phrased as it is, this first 13 question is a so-called motherhood question therefore, 14 we followed it up with two more questions. The one 15 read as follows: 16 "It has been suggested that more affective meas- 17 ure to protect the environment. may hamper eco- 18 nomic growth in Canada. Do you feel that Canada 19 will or will not have to choose between environ- 20 mental protection and economic growth?" 21 Those who responded that they feel that Canada will have 22 to make the choice were asked the following question: 23 "Which option would you choose: environmental 24 protection or economic growth?" 25 The results of these 26 questions are reported by province and for the country 27 as z whole in Tables 4B and 4C on pages 29 and 30 of 28 the written brief. You can see in Table 4B that less 29 than 1/3 or specifically 30% of all Canadians are of 30 the opinion that we can, so to speak, have our cake and Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 6941

1 eat it too. That is, that Canada will, not have to 2 choose between environmental protection and economic 3 growth. The majority or 58.9% are of the opinion that 4 there is a certain degree of incompatibility between 5 the two and that we will ultimately have to choose one 6 or the other. 7 When we probed this 58.9% who 8 say that we will have to make a choice and asked them 9 what their own choice would be, we come up with a 10 somewhat surprising finding that the majority favor 11 environmental protection over economic growth as shown 12 in Table 4C on page 30 of the written and the 13 difference here is 57.8% who favor environmental 14 protection versus only 36.9% who favor economic growth. 15 We subject his finding to further analysis in order to 16 determine just who tends to favor which opinion. We 17 found that there was no relationship between the 18 respondent's choice here and their level of formal 19 education,' family income, nor the size of the city in 20 which they live. However, we did find significant 21 differences on this question among respondents of 22 different ages and provinces as shown in Table 4C in 23 your brief. We also found differences among our 24 respondents depending upon what federal political party 25 they identified with, which is not the party that they 26 voted for but simply the party with which they 27 identify, federally. We also found 28 significant 28 differences amongst our respondents according to the 29 knowledge they had about Indians and Indian affairs in 30 Canada. Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 6942

1 We summarize our findings on 2 these variables on page 14 of the written brief and we 3 discuss the way in which we assessed the knowledge of 4 the respondents on Indian issues and Indian affairs in 5 Canada on page 15. 6 So, I'd like to move into a 7 summary of our findings and into our conclusions then. 8 In our written submission, we 9 have discussed some other matters which we will not 10 deal with in the conclusions and summary that I read 11 11 now. We would call your attention in particular, Mr. 12 Commissioner, to pages 18 and 19 of the written 13 submission where we urge you to commission a public 14 opinion survey which deals more directly with the 15 opinions of southern Canadians on the numerous aspects 16 of the pipeline, than our questionnaire did. 17 One conclusion to which we 18 are led by the data is that the environmental concern 19 of the late 1960's and early '70's in Canada is not a 20 fad or a passing whim. Canadians today do have a deep 21 concern for the natural environment. They consistently 22 rank it as being important, indeed, usually the most 23 important of several momentous problems involved in the 24 construction of the pipeline and they appear by their 25 answers to be willing to make sacrifice on behalf of 26 the environment. Specifically, by a wide margin, the 27 view the protection of the natural environment as 28 being more important than the cheap production of 29 energy the construction of the pipeline, as indicated 30 by the almost uniformly lowest priority attached Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 6943

1 to the production of-energy as cheaply as possible. 2 They are also willing to sacrifice the economic growth 3 of this country in order to protect the natural 4 environment. 5 Thus, our data suggest that 6 Canadians living south of 60° would strongly support 7 the imposition and conscientious enforcement of strict 8 environmental safeguards in the construction of a 9 Mackenzie Valley Pipeline, if indeed it is to be built 10 at all. Canadians appear willing to bear the costs of 11 such safeguards in terms of paying more for their 12 energy and in terms of exercising restrain in their own 13 energy consumption in the interim. This latter point 14 was demonstrated by the very high priority which 15 Canadians attach to the conservation of energy. 16 Thus, our data suggest that 17 opinion that has. been expressed before these hearings 18 to the effect that Canada "urgently needs" the energy 19 resources of the north is not an opinion which is 20 shared by most adult Canadians. 21 Another theme of many briefs 22 presented to you has been that of concern for the 23 native people of the Mackenzie Valley. Indeed, this 24 is closely linked to concern for the natural 25 environment as illustrated by the fact that these two 26 concerns tended to run virtually parallel to each 27 other n the graphs in the written brief. We also 28 found that high levels of knowledge about Indians and 29 Indian affairs were strongly related to a tendency to 30 favor protect ion of the environment over economic Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 6944

1 growth. We suggest that the lifestyle and culture of 2 Indians are perceived by southern Canadians to be a 3 repository of environmentalist values and that this 4 perception accounts in part for the respect for native 5 people shown by most of our respondents and that it 6 accounts also in part for the concern and sympathy 7 shown for them and their problems. We have appended 8 to our brief a graph taken from another part of our 9 study which is shown on the screen now. That graph 10 portrays the distribution of our sample on an index of 11 sympathy a towards Indians, an index which we 12 constructed listing responses to some questions 13 different from those which we have reported on 14 tonight. This graph takes on a shape resembling that 15 of a normal so-called "bell" curve and thereby shows 16 that southern Canadians are not polarized into a camp 17 of so-called "bigots" at one end of the scale and a 18 camp of so-called "bleeding heart liberals" at the 19 other end of the scale. Nor is the distribution 20 noticeably skewed towards the unsympathetic end of the 21 continuum. Had it have been, it would have indicated 22 a homogeneous mass of shall we racists but it is not 23 any of these things. Instead, as mentioned, the 24 sympathy curve is almost normal in shape, which 25 indicates that the government need not be hesitant in 26 making a more concerted attack on the problems India 27 face for fear of running afoul of 28 some preexisting widespread reservoir of hostility 29 towards Indians on the part of the Canadian 30 public. Nor we might note parenthetically, Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 6945

1 need this Commission anticipate such hostility 2 should the protection of native interests be given a 3 high priority in its recommendations, for the social 4 and economic problems of Canada's native people are 5 ranked as a high priority problem faced the country 6 third only to inflation and conservation of energy and 7 the protection of the way of life of the native people 8 of the Mackenzie Valley is rated as a high priority 9 problem in the construction of the pipeline. Indeed, 10 a fifth of the adult population considers this to be 11 the most important problem in the construction of the 12 pipeline while over 61% of the population rated it as 13 one of the three most important problems in the 14 construction of the pipeline ahead of these 15 other problems, namely Canadian ownership over the 16 pipeline and production of energy as cheaply as 17 possible. 18 Mr. Commissioner, the great 19 bulk of the Canadian public cannot appear before this 20 Inquiry. However, to the extent that our data speak 21 for that public, they suggest that southern Canadians 22 will not condone government or industry actions which 23 would run roughshod over northern native or 24 environmental interests. If your recommendations to 25 the government serve as a shield both for the northern 26 environment and for the native peoples who for century 27 have lived in harmony with that environment, then those 28 recommendations will accurately express the concerns of 29 southerners. Canadians living south of 60 are not any 30 willing to pay/environmental or humanistic price for Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 6946

1 the energy bounty of the north. 2 (SUBMISSION OF J. RICK POINTING MARKED EXHIBIT C-53l) 3 (WITNESS ASIDE) 4 MR. WADDELL: Would Mr. 5 Franklin and Mr. Schiblie of the Social Justice 6 Committee come up and see me for a moment please? 7 I'll call as our next brief 8 there's a brief from the Magna Carta Councils, Mr. John 9 Franklin is the executive director. 10 MR. JOHN FRANKLIN sworn 11 THE WITNESS: Mr. 12 Commissioner, it is a great delight to me to follow the 13 last speaker because our report has come to precisely 14 the same conclusions and I would like to give you the 15 philosophy on which that report is based. 16 It's no exaggeration to say 17 that by your wisdom and understanding Mr. 18 Commissioner, by your deep sense of justice and by 19 your own personal fortitude, temperance and prudence 20 you have made your Inquiry the most important single 21 event in the history of Canada since Confederation. 22 You have wisely insisted that your Inquiry be fair 23 and that it be complete. 24 Magna Carta Councils have the 25 honor and privilege to present the report of our 26 research division with respect and humility, but 27 claiming that your Inquiry can be neither fair nor 28 complete without certain relevant facts which have not 29 yet been presented to you. You have shown clearly that 30 what is right for the white man both in law Wand in Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 6947

1 substance must also be shown to he right for the red 2 man, the black man, the brown man and the yellow man 3 and for all his women and children. This is the 4 people's business and the nation's business. It's the 5 Crown's business and must be discussed in Parliament 6 until a solution satisfactory to all the people has 7 been reached. 8 By your insistence, Mr. 9 Commissioner, you have uncovered the real story as 10 described by yet another of this century's most courage 11 men: 12 "The real story is the universal one of men who 13 destroy the souls and bodies of other men and in 14 the process destroy themselves for reasons nei- 15 ther really understands. It is the story of the 16 persecuted, the defrauded, the feared and de- 17 tested, and it traces the changes that occur to 18 heart and body and intelligence when a so-called 19 first class citizen is cast on the junk heap of 20 second class citizenship." 21 You have also uncovered the 22 real solution and laid it bare for all men and women 23 the world over to observe if they have eyes to see and 24 ears to hear, hearts to conceive, heads to devise and 25 hands to educate -- to execute promptly. That solution 26 is found of course in your own discipline Mr. 27 Commissioner, namely the law. Peace, harmony and 28 dignity in human affairs are absolutely impossible 29 without personal universal and unanimous acceptance of 30 and obedience to the law. Ignorance of the law is no Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 6948

1 excuse yet all wise lawyers and all informed and 2 responsible citizens, native and non-native, understand 3 the validity of Edmond Burke's statement that: "There 4 is but one law for all, namely, that law which governs 5 all law: the law of our Creator, the law of humanity, 6 justice, equity, the law of nature and of nations." 7 In obedience to personal 8 liberty under the law, Magna Carta Councils have the 9 honor and duty to present for your urgent consideration 10 in our report a practical plan for a peaceful, radical, 11 revolutionary and simultaneous change, a twentieth 12 century renaissance in the whole combined political, 13 economic, social, educational, scientific, religious 14 and communication structure of the north as well as of 15 Canada, of the U.S.A., the Commonwealth and the United 16 Nations who are now meeting on Canadian soil to 17 consider human settlements in the whole world even s 18 your Inquiry is now doing in a more limited by equally 19 important area of our global village. 20 We hasten to add, Mr. 21 Commissioner, that the plan is totally consistent 22 with my certificate: of Canadian citizenship with 23 the B.N.A. Act, with the U.S. Constitution, the 24 U.S. Pledge to the flag, the U.S. Great Seal as 25 well as with the United Nations Charter, the aims of 26 the Commonwealth of Nations to which all 22 million 27 Canadians belong and with the Universal Declaration 28 of Human Rights. To link the plan directly with 29 your Inquiry Mr. Commissioner, we also hasten to add 30 that to our great delight, we found all the Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 6949

1 essential elements of the plan embodied in the Cree 2 way project as explained to attentive audiences in 3 this hotel last week and in all other submissions of 4 our native brothers. The plan can be worked out 5 from these first principles by anyone with average 6 knowledge and average competence in reading, writing 7 and arithmetic, in rights, responsibilities and 8 restraints and in restoration, repair and recycle. 9 Mr. Commissioner, the plan 10 calls for the immediate restoration of Magna Carta, 11 liberty and human rights of the jury system, truth and 12 justice and of Parliamentary democracy as described by 13 Her Majesty the Queen in her 1974 Christmas message to 14 the world: 15 "The unique British contribution to world civil- 16 zation and to peace on earth, goodwill to all 17 mankind is Parliamentary democracy." 18 In 1964, Her Majesty 19 described her own position in our village: 20 "The role of a constitutional monarch is to per- 21 sonify the democratic state, to sanction legiti- 22 mate authority, to assure the legality of its 23 measures and to guarantee the execution of the 24 popular will. In accomplishing this task, it 25 protects the people against disorder." 26 Thereby, each first-class 27 citizen on earth is at liberty under the law to live in 28 peace and harmony anywhere on this earth he so decides. 29 The plan is essentially a revolution made possible 30 through law as described by Honorable Mr. Turner in his Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 6950

1 1970 speech entitled "Law for the '70's: A Manifesto 2 for Law Reform" by which he founded the Law Reform 3 Commission of Canada. The plan calls for the prompt 4 balance of the entire Canadian economic system well 5 before the Olympics so that Her Majesty can open this 6 important and exciting world event in perfect peace, 7 harmony and safety. The balance of our economy 8 according to the law of supply and demand is essential 9 first to balance the market system. As described in 10 our report, this change will benefit every person in 11 Canada without exception. It will abolish now and 12 permanently all inflation and unemployment, all 13 poverty and low income, all recession and energy 14 shortage as well as all need for further James Bay 15 development or for the Mackenzie Pipeline, all 16 proliferation of nuclear weapons and all other 17 incentives to conflict, to crime and to violence. 18 Economic peace and order and good management of the 19 natural production consumption recycle process will 20 then ensure political peace, order and good government 21 throughout all Canada by unanimous consent of the 22 popular will as represented by the Senate and House of 23 Commons and by Provincial Parliaments and local 24 councils, including the local native councils of the 25 north. All else is wrong, Mr. Commissioner. 26 " When a thing is wrong, 27 it cannot be justified and there is no more to say," 28 wrote Right Honorable John G. Diefenbaker in "One 29 Canada", page 44. We waste precious, valuable time 30 saying it at great length, Mr. Commissioner. The final Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 6951

1 transition to the familial society in which the family 2 be it the native family or any other family is the 3 largest independent decision-making power group on as 4 envisioned by the founders of the Vanier Institute of 5 the Family. It will then be accomplished as a matter 6 of course in a few months thereby abolishing population 7 S explosion permanently and as native and other parents 8 take over full responsibility for nourishing and 9 educating each child until it can look after itself and 10 no longer. Each and every responsible Canadian citizen 11 from the north, south, east and west of this great 12 bountiful country will act now independently, competent 13 and peacefully in liberty under the law to protect the 14 people against disorder thereby to build one Canada 15 under the rule of law, one nation indivisible with 16 liberty justice and enough for all our 22 million 17 consumers then there will be enough and to spare to 18 share with all our neighbors in need throughout the 19 world without exception as Canada confidently and 20 humbly leads the way to world peace through world law 21 in 1976 as a result of your Inquiry, Mr. Commissioner. 22 I thank you from the heart 23 for your courage and your very kind attention to this 24 brief. Thank you very much. 25 (WITNESS ASIDE) 26 MR. WADDELL: Mr. Commissioner 27 you will see from our list tonight, the name Mr. Recent 28 Gagnon and he hasn't appeared. Also Monsieur Jean 29 Morissette, Dr. Morissette has agreed to speak tomorrow, 30 first thing. Also Mr. Schiblie of the Social Justice Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 6952

1 Committee of Canada has kindly agreed also to speak 2 tomorrow morning and he will speak second thing. 3 Now perhaps Mr. Roland has a 4 comment. Those are the end of the briefs for this 5 evening, Mr. Commissioner. 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 6953

1 Me ROLAND: Comme je l'ai 2 indiqué lors de l'ouverture de cette audience, monsieur 3 le Commissare, nos règlements donnent à chacune des 4 compagnies de pipeline, de même qu'aux principaux 5 participants, le droit de répliquer aux mémoires 6 présentés ce soir pour une durée qui ne dépasse pas dix 7 (10) minutes. 8 Monsieur Pierre Genest, 9 conseiller juridique pour ArctiC Gas m'a signalé qu'il 10 désire exercer son droit de répliquer. 11 12 Me PIERRE GENEST, Q.C.: 13 Monsieur le Commissaire, je ne voudrais pas d'autant 14 plus que j'ai passé beaucoup de temps avec vous dans le 15 Nord du Canada, et que les procédures, là, ont été 16 traduites en plusieurs langues, mais pas le français, 17 je ne voudrais pas manquer la chante de vous adresser 18 quelques paroles que vous avez déjà entendues, mais 19 qui, peut-être, serviront à indiquer aux gens de 20 Montréal, de la province de Québec, la position du 21 Canadian Arctic Gas dont je sùis l'avocat et que je 22 représente dans les auditions formelles de votre 23 enquøte â Yellowknife. 24 25 Je voudrais prendre 26 l'occasion de mettre un point à quelques impressions 27 qui se forment dans le Sud au sujet de notre projet et 28 au sujet de la position de, notre compagnie sur des 29 questions qui ont été souvent élevées devant vous dans 30 le Sud. Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 6954

1 Je sais que dans ce que je 2 dis il n'y a rien qui est neuf à vous, mais, je crois 3 servir un but en mettant au point quelques issues de 4 controverse. 5 D'abord, monsieur le Juge, 6 laissez-moi parler quelques moments, au sujet des 7 réclamations exigées, en ce qui a trait aux peuples 8 indigènes du Nord, je voudrais encore ici préciser qu'à 9 maintes reprises et en public, la Société Gaz Arctique 10 a réclamé un prompt et équitable règlement des 11 revendications apportées par les autochtones. 12 13 Nous comprenons-les soucis 14 des peuples indigènes faisant face au grand problème et 15 nous appuyons entièrement leurs désirs de voir résoudre 16 une question qui doit, selon nous, être tranchée, ft 17 tout événement, que le pipeline, que le gazoduc soit 18 construit ou non, tout en. espérant que ces 19 revendications seront réglées avant que ne s'amorça la 20 construction de ce gazoduc. 21 22 Nous croyons qu'il s'agit là 23 de deux questions tout à fait distinctes. 24 25 Le règlement des revendica- 26 tions desindigènes du Nord est une matière qui doit être 27 conclue entre les peuples indigènes et le Gouvernement 28 fédéral. Si toutes les parties en cause agissent de 29 bonne foi, il devrait être possible d'arriver à un 30 règlement de la question avant la contruction d'un Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 6955

1 pipeline. Je nie sors du mot "pipeline", monsieur le 2 Juge, parce qu'on me dit qu'après deux duels et un 3 suicide, ça a été admis au dictionnaire français au lieu 4 de gazoduc. 5 6 Nous sommes confiants qu'on 7 pourra parvenir à une solution rapide et équitable, 8 étant donné les ngociations qui sont maintenant 9 engagéis entre le Gouvernement, les peuples indignos du 10 Yukon et les Inuits des Territoires du Nord-Ouest. 11 12 Nous avons raison de croire 13 également que les peuples indiens et métis des 14 Territoires du Nord-Ouest entendent soumettre leurs 15 propositions au Gouvernement dès novembre cette année. 16 17 Nous voulons aussi vous dire, 18 comme a dit monsieur Horte, le président de Arctic Gas 19 à Vancouver et à Toronto, que nous ne voyons pas le 20 développement du Nord comme une confrontation entre 21 les autochtones, les gens du Nord et les gens du Sud. 22 Nous ne voyons pas cette situation comme une répétition 23 de l'histoire, comme une nouvelle colonisation du 24 Nord. 25 26 Nous ne voyons pas cette 27 situation comme une situation où il doit y avoir un 28 gagnant et un perdant. 29 30 Au contraire, nous voyons le Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 6956

1 développement du Nord comme une situation où il 2 ne devrait y avoir que des gagnants et pas de 3 perdants. 4 5 Il doit être possible -- 6 et c'est la tâche de votre enquête -- d'avoir un 7 développement, d'aller puiser les sources 8 d'énergie du Nord dont on a besoin dans le Sud 9 sans détruire la culture, le style de vie des gens 10 du Nord. 11 12 Et comme vous le savez et 13 comme vous l'avez souligné vous-même, monsieur le Juge, 14 Toronto et d'autres endroits, des sommes énormes se 15 sont dépensées sur des recherches avant que votre 16 enquête ne se commence, des recherches scientifiques 17 sur l'environnement, sur l'effet du pipeline sur 18 l'environnement, sur-l'effet du pipeline sur les 19 autochtones, des sommes considérables ont été dépensées 20 par le Foothills Pipeline et oil le Arctic Gas, sur un 21 programme d'entrainement qui a pour son but d'assurer 22 que l'histoire encore ne se répètera pas, que les 23 autochtones ne seront pas laissés, comme vous l'avez 24 dit, après un boom, comme vous l'avez dit dans vos 25 remarques, je ne sais pas si c'est français, mais c'est 26 une belle expression, qu'ils ne sont pas laissés 27 victimes d'un développement rapide où des gens du Sud 28 ont pris tout l'argent et ont décampé. 29 30 Et vous entendrez dans la Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 6957

1 preuve qui sera apportée devant vous Yellowknife, 2 beaucoup detémoignages à ce sujet-là. 3 Je veux parler un moment, si 4 vous me le permettez, aussi des allégués qu'on fait 5 souvent devant vous, que ce pays n'a aucun besoin 6 d'énergie supplémentaire et que nous pouvons réaliser 7 nos objectjfs simplement au moyen de la conserva-tionet 8 de l'emploi de d'autres formes d'énergie. 9 10 En qualité de proposition 11 abstraite on a vu per les recherches de l'Université de 12 Calgary, qu'il y a bien des gens au Canada que si on 13 leur pose ce problème: 14 "Est-ce que vous voulez une 15 croissance économique ou est- 16 ce que vous Voulez la protec- 17 tion d l'environnement, 18 laquelle préférez-vous?" 19 20 Mais, malheureusement, il 21 nous semble que cette question ne se posera pas pour 22 les canadiens dans les termes dans lesquels on l'a posé 23 dans le"poll" des professeurs savants ue Calgary. 24 25 La question va se poser 26 dans les années 1930 à 1985, quand nos sources 27 d'énergie vont nous manquer, quand le SIDBEC, qu'on 28 a entendu ce soir, qui emploie trois mille (3,000) 29 personnes dans la provinces de Québec, au-delà de 30 Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 6958

1 trois mille (3,000) personnes dans la province de 2 Québec, aujourd'hui, et qui, en 1985 prévoit 3 employer au-delà de six mille (6,000) personnes dans 4 la province de Québec, qui est la fondation dans la 5 province de Québec d'une industrie, d'une aciérie 6 très importante dans les plans économiques et de la 7 croissance économique de cette province. S'il manque 8 du gaz, demandons aux employés de cette compagnie, 9 que pensent-ils à ce moment-là du développement du 10 Nord, et ce moment-là, il sera trop tard, parce que 11 a nous prendra dix ans (10) à remplacer ces sources 12 d'énergie, pour trouver une nouvelle source 13 d'énergie, c'est dans ce contexte-là que la question 14 se posera. 15 16 17 La conservation est un but 18 sain et il nous semble qu'aucune personne engagée dans 19 l'industrie de l'énergie s'y oppose, et ils doivent le 20 préconiser, mais il existe un point qu'il faut 21 souligner, c'est que toutes les études que nous avons 22 eues, il y en a un grand nombre qui démontre que les 23 mesures de conservation, tôut en enrayant ou retardant 24 le taux de l'augmentation de l'énergie utilisée, sont 25 absolument impuissantes à annuler complètement la 26 croissance dans un pays en pleine croissance, qui est 27 le Canada, et qui, en plus, possède un climat comme 28 nous avons au Canada. 29 30 Nous sôulignons que dans Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 6959

1 notre opinion, il est peu realisté de croire qu'on 2 pourrait accomplir une telle transformation sans 3 entraîner des hausses majeures de chômage et autres 4 dislocations economiques. 5 6 On parle souvent de d'autres 7 formes d'énergie, telle que par exemple l'énergie 8 solaire, nucléaire ou l'énergie engendrée par le vent, 9 avec des moulins vent, il faut dire que quoi que soient 10 nos efforts en, matière de recherche, ces autres formes 11 ne pourront être mises au point pendant les dix (10) ou 12 quinze (15) prochaines années de façon à réduire 13 sensiblement nos besoins en énergie provenant des 14 sources conventionnelles. 15 16 Dans son rapport récent sur 17 les stratégies en matière d'énergie pour le Canada, 1e 18 Ministère fédéral de 1'Energie, des Mines et des 19 Ressources a prédit que les formes d'énergie 20 renouvelables ne pourront répondre qu'à un maximum de 21 six pour cent (6%) de la demande canadienne en énergie 22 en mil neuf cent quatre-vingt-dix (1990) à la longue 23 évidemment il nous faudra utiliser toute cette forme 24 d'énergie, afin de satisfaire à nos besoins, mais dans 25 l'intervalle, il faut que notre nation survive et 26 établisse une économie saine. 27 28 Cette année, en mil neuf cent 29 soixant-seize (1976), nous avons de nouveau enregistré 30 des importations nottes en pétrole. Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 6960

1 2 Même si nous supposons la 3 mise en oeuvre efficace de nos efforts en matière de 4 conservation et d'emploi de d'autres formes d'énergie, 5 en mil neuf cent quatre-vingt (1930), il nous faudra 6 importer, du pétrole de 1'étranger, d'une valeur de 7 près de trois milliards de dollars ($3,000,000,000.O0), 8 somme qui s'élèvera à cinq milliards 9 ($5,000,000,000.O0) l'an dès mil neuf cent quatre- 10 vingt-cinq (1985). 11 12 Permettez-moi d'ajouter qu'on 13 a calculé ce deficit au commerce du prtro1e en 14 supposant que les cours de L'OPEC ne s'élèveront pas 15 audessus des niveaux actuels. 16 17 Mais, considérons pour un 18 moment la situation qui résulterait si les nations de 19 1'OPEC choisissaient de nous refuser ces appro- 20 visionnements énergétiques, et demandons la question 21 aux gens qui s'opposent pour des raisons se fondant sur 22 la protection de l'environnement à la mise en valeur 23 des ressources énergétiques du Grand Nord, ils disent 24 qu'on doit chercher d'autres alternatives, mais 25 l'alternative qui nous fait face immédiatentent c'est 26 d'acheminer ces approvisionnements par navire jusque 27 dans nos ports avec toutes les consequences 28 environnementales qui sont pires que les risques 29 environnementaux d'apporter le gaz naturel par un 30 pipeline enseveli, qui après sa construction Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 6961

1 ne sera pas emarqùab1e. 2 3 Et, permettez-moi aussi de 4 demander quelle sera l'attitude des personnes dont les 5 emplois sont subordonnés des approvisionne-ments 6 suffisants en énergie, au moment d'une interruption ou 7 de l'établissement de prix entièrement hors de notre 8 volonté. 9 10 11 Alors, tous ces chiffres 12 indiquent des résultats assez sérieux pour l'économie 13 canadienne dans la décade mil neuf cent quatre-vingt 14 (1980), nous avons déposé auprès de l'Office National 15 de l'Energie, les études approfondies qui traitent de 16 la question de l'investissement qu'il va falloir faire 17 dans l'exploitation des sources énergiques du Nord, 18 ces études seront étudiées profondément, 19 minutieusement devant l'Office National de 1'Energie 20 et elles révèlent que de tous les investissements dans 21 l'énergie que nous pouvons faire, que tous les choix 22 que nous avons, réalistes, dans le moment, le moins 23 défavorable, celui qui entraîne le moins de pénalités 24 pour tout le Canada, c'est un investissement dans la 25 saine extraction des richesses naturelles du Nord, et 26 nous croyons, monsieur le Commissaire, que cette 27 extraction pour le bénéfice du canadien doit être 28 faite, peut être faite, tout en préservant la culture, 29 les droits légitimes -- et ils sont légitimes -- dos 30 autochtones du Nord en préservant l'environnement du Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 6962

1 Nord d'une façon qui favorisera tous les canadiens, 2 ceux du Nord et ceux du Sud, d'une façon qui les fera 3 comme je l'ai dit plus des bonne heure, tous des 4 gagnants dans ce projet. 5 Je vous remerci. 6 APPLAUDISSEMENTS -- 7 LE COMMISSAIRE: Merci. 8 Me ROLAND: Cela conclut la 9 session. 10 So that concludes this 11 session. We start tomorrow at 10 A.M. 12 THE COMMISSIONER: Well, 13 ladies and gentlemen, let me thank you for your 14 attendance this evening and especially those who took 15 the time and trouble to present briefs. We'll adjourn 16 until tomorrow at 10. Je vous remercie de votre 17 attention, bonsoir. 18 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED TO JUNE 1, 1976) 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30