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HS2 Committee PUBLIC SESSION MINUTES OF ORAL EVIDENCE taken before HIGH SPEED RAIL COMMITTEE on the HIGH SPEED RAIL (LONDON – WEST MIDLANDS) BILL Monday 7 December 2015 (Afternoon) In Committee Room 5 PRESENT: Mr Robert Syms (Chair) Sir Peter Bottomley Geoffrey Clifton-Brown Mr David Crausby Mr Mark Hendrick _____________ IN ATTENDANCE: Timothy Mould QC, Lead Counsel, Department for Transport Witnesses: Nathalie Lieven QC, representing Transport for London and the Greater London Authority Neil Cameron QC, representing London Borough of Camden Stephen Locke and Tim Bellinger, London Transport Users Committee _____________ IN PUBLIC SESSION INDEX Subject Page Introduction by the Chair 3 Transport for London and the Greater London Authority Statement from Ms Lieven 3 London Borough of Camden Submission from Mr Cameron 4 Response from Mr Mould 6 London Transport Users Committee Submission from Mr Locke 7 Response from Mr Mould 11 Final comments from Mr Locke 14 Additional comments from Mr Bellinger 15 2 (At 3.43 p.m.) 1. CHAIR: Order, order. Welcome to the HS2 Select Committee. We have AP2:163, AP2:164, AP3:83, Transport for London and the Greater London Authority, represented by Nathalie Lieven. Welcome back. You have a short statement for the Committee. Transport for London and the Greater London Authority 2. MS LIEVEN QC: Thank you, sir. I do indeed. I’m very pleased to say that agreement has been reached between the Mayor, acting on behalf of the GLA/TfL and HS2. I think I should record that the parties have worked extremely hard to resolve the outstanding issues relating to Euston and Hillingdon, and we have reached agreement on ways forward on all the outstanding issues, such that we don’t need to bother this committee. 3. In particular, we’ve made significant progress in terms of taking forward Euston redevelopment, increased use of rail during construction at Euston and reducing construction traffic in Hillingdon. Sir, the position is, as I understand it, that the assurance that’s been agreed will be published shortly albeit, for logistical reasons, we haven’t got it in front of us here. 4. CHAIR: The printer doesn’t work. 5. MS LIEVEN QC: The printer does work, but it’s in Victoria Street. 6. CHAIR: Alright, any further comment from the floor? 7. MR MOULD QC (DfT): That just goes to show you how much can be achieved when I’m not involved. 8. CHAIR: Alright, thank you very much indeed and thank you for that. That’s been very pleasing. 9. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: It might be worth saying, Chairman, that we do appreciate that the public authorities do put a lot of work in. Their officers and elected members have earned a debt of gratitude from local residents, as well as from us, 3 because reaching an agreement is probably better than us trying to impose something having heard both sides of a discussion. 10. MS LIEVEN QC: I very much hope so, sir, and thank you for those words. 11. CHAIR: Thank you very much indeed. We’re now going to go to 184, London Borough of Camden, local authority generic case on construction noise, represented by Sharpe Pritchard. London Borough of Camden 12. CHAIR: Welcome back, Mr Cameron. Is this similar? Are you going to be reading a statement as well? 13. MR CAMERON QC: It is. I won’t actually be reading a statement, but agreement has been reached. Sir, as you know, I appear not only on behalf of Camden, but all 14 of the local authorities that are known as the Local Authority Noise Consortium or LANC. A great deal of work has been put into reaching agreement, not only by the local authorities, but by HS2. I’ll just explain, if I can, the essence of the agreement. 14. I don’t know whether it’s possible to have up slide 1694(3), please. It’s not going to take very long, but maybe just a little bit longer than Ms Lieven. We’ve reached agreement on A1; we’ve reached agreement on 2 and 3, which are shown in green as well. We’ve reached agreement on A4. 15. If we turn on to the next page, please, which is number 4, you’ll see there that the local authorities took a slightly unusual step here and drafted what they called ‘a statement of expectations’. An assurance has been given that satisfies their requirements and I’ll just explain it very briefly. 16. The local authorities’ concern was that they have a power, under section 60 and 61 of the Control of Pollution Act, which arises at the construction stage. At that stage, it’s envisaged that the nominated undertaker will apply for consent and that is consent to the means of working at particular sites, and the local authority is able to impose conditions, subject to having regard to the best practicable means. What the local authorities were concerned about was that, at that stage, they may seek to impose conditions that the 4 nominated undertaker had found to be unexpected or they might found that, if they sought to impose certain conditions, they were met with the argument, ‘This isn’t best practicable means, because it’s going to delay the programme.’ 17. What the statement of expectations does is to assist both parties, that is nominated undertaker and local authorities, and sets out the matters that local authorities would expect, where relevant and proportionate, to be addressed. That’s the basis of the agreement, and it’s hoped and expected that that will benefit both the local authorities and the nominated undertaker. 18. Can I turn to the next page, which is 5, 1694(5), please? Agreement has been reached on issues here. Some of these issues, such as better ventilation and provisions for noise insulation, were agreed in relation to the Camden petition and similar agreement has been reached. Now, you’ll notice here that part of the request was for an independent advisory service and an independent compensation panel. The second of those two is nor pursued. As far as the independent advisory service is concerned, no doubt you’ll be concerned about a proliferation of different services and bodies, but what’s envisaged here is that those that think that they might be entitled to temporary rehousing or noise insulation should have some independent body that they can go to. Otherwise, they’re going to the nominated undertaker and there’s likely to at least be a perception that they’re not going to get the information that they need, even though they may well do. 19. For the person affected, the resident in the flat where she thinks they might be affected, where do they go? They might go to the local authority, but local authorities aren’t necessarily equipped to deal with this, if you think of authorities up and down the route. What the Secretary of State has agreed is not to set up such a panel, but to consider it, and the authorities have agreed to engage with the Secretary of State in that process. Hopefully, we’ll reach agreement. If we don’t we might have to go back in the other house, but that’s where that’s got to. 20. MR CLIFTON-BROWN: Mr Cameron, can you tell us why an independent compensation panel was not considered? 21. MR CAMERON QC: Not pursued? 5 22. MR CLIFTON-BROWN: Yes, not pursued. 23. MR CAMERON QC: It was thought that, in relation to the two issues here, noise insulation and temporary rehousing, the mechanism of the complaints commissioner, which I think is now going to be called the construction commissioner, would be adequate. What was thought to be inadequate was access to advice, as to whether somebody would be entitled to temporary rehousing or noise insulation. That was seen to be the defect and the local authorities have been persuaded that the other systems in place, particularly the complaints or construction commissioner, would provide adequate protection. 24. Now, the next page, page 6, this is really a repeat of the request that was made to you on 4 November in relation to operational noise, but a similar request in relation to construction noise. We don’t call any evidence on that, but we leave that for you to consider. 25. Other operational noise matters have been dealt with, apart from if we can go to pages 83 and 84. 83 and 84 are reminders of issues that were left with you to determine, following the operational noise hearing. We’ve really put them in there to remind you that they’re on the list. They’re of concern to the local authorities and will require some guidance from you. That’s all I have to say, apart from being grateful to the Secretary of State for giving the necessary assurances. We haven’t got a letter as yet, because there are various changes that need to be made but, once we get that letter, no doubt it’ll be put on the website. 26. CHAIR: Okay, any comments, Mr Mould? 27. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Just to say this, as Mr Cameron has said, we certainly have given an assurance to have a careful look at the case for an independent advisory service. That is something that we need to consider in detail, in conjunction with Camden on behalf of the other local authorities. The letter that is to be sent reflects that fact. 28. CHAIR: Okay, thank you very much, gentlemen. We now move on to 904, London Transport Users Committee, known as London TravelWatch, Stephen Locke.
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