Interview with Ferdinand von un

During the 2014 , Ferdinand Graf von Thun extended an invitati- on to a tasting event in the inner courtyard of his Château, where we enjoyed the sunshine and he spoke of his relationship with , a region that has moved and inspired him from the start. You started growing wine late in life. Have you always dreamed of making your own wine one day?

To be honest, no, nor did my family ever have anything to do with wine. I am actually a lawyer. However, I’ve always had a strong interest in wine as a subject and have been on many exciting wine tours.

How did you come to grow wine in Gaillac, of all places?

The first time I arrived at Château de Frausseilles in August 1998 - I had just driven up from the airport in Toulouse - I was already overwhelmed by the landscape. These beautiful gentle hills are like Tuscany, but in ! I had also learned a bit about the history of the region before I travelled here: Gaillac suffered many defeats in the past and kept being left in the dust by its rival, Bordeaux. I just felt that this place deserved a second chance. Why would you look in faraway places when there’s so much on your doorstep? It was on a really hot afternoon that I stepped through the stone entrance portal of the château the first time. The pediment had an ancient inscription on it, as it does now: “Sans estre traître vis toujours en ta foy ne variant pour prince ni pour roy”. It means something like, “never betray your faith, not for prince or king”. So the people who lived within these walls rebelled against authority! That’s something I can relate to immediately as a Bavarian. We like to say “mir san mir” – “we are who we are” (laughs).

Were you able to find out what the inscription is about, exactly?

The castle was first mentioned in the 15th century. In all likelihood, it was built much, much earlier than this, but it’s impossible to determine exactly. During the 16th century, no fewer than three religious wars took place, merging almost seamlessly into each other, namely the First, Second and Third Huguenot Wars. In 1568, when the Huguenots conquered Gaillac, the Catholic inhabitants yielded to the Protestants to avoid the worst of the repercussions. Château de Frausseilles was plundered and one of the Protestant rulers lived here for several years befo- re selling it back to its original owner. I suspect that the inscription is from just this period.

In such turbulent times, even solidly built houses take some damage. Do you know whether today’s walls correspond to the original buil- dings?

I have discovered documents that mention a whole fortification in Frausseilles, which was apparently destroyed in 1587 by the Consul of Gaillac on orders of the Parliament in Toulouse. Without its fortifications, the château today is just a rectangular building. It is adjacent to a church, which must have served as the palace chapel once upon a time. It used to have two floors, but in the course of the centuries it was downgraded by a level – possibly during the Huguenot Wars. Château de Frausseilles is by no means a swanky palace; with its limestone walls, it fits beautifully into the landscape – which is something I liked immediately. I knew on the afternoon of my first visit that I had found my home.

And then there were of course the …

Indeed. During my first walk I noticed the stony ground immediately. As an ambitious layman, I figured right away that this had to be something quite special. If there’s one thing I’ve learned from my many wine tours, it is this: I know from experience that especially great grow on poor soil. There is also the fact that the château lies relatively high on the plateau, so it’s cooler, and the get an extra couple of weeks longer to ripen. I knew that all these things are important factors for great wines, and if I’m going to be producing wine, I want to do it properly and aim for the best. Nevertheless, I still needed my feelings to be confirmed by a wine professional. And that’s what Riccardo did, in the end.

Can you tell us about the early days at Comte de Thun, please? What was it like restoring the château, for example?

As soon as I bought the château, we started with the renovations. We were some of the first to do so with Frausseilles, although other property owners have followed our lead and now have the courage to invest in their homes again. That’s a really good sign for the whole region, I think. The château’s interior has always been inhabitable, so there wasn’t too much rede- coration needed there. I mainly wanted to make it more comfortable. In the beginning, for example, everything was heated by large fireplaces. Naturally we kept those, but today we have additional heating. I also had the wallpaper removed to bring out the beautiful natural stone. There was significantly more to do on the outside. For a while, I kept travelling to Frausseilles for long weekends to keep up to date with the work and occasionally pitch in myself. I was supported by a project manager who led the construction works.

And what were the vineyards like at the beginning?

The previous owner of the château had run the between 1992 and 1998. In his time, he planted about 25 acres of new stock and developed the vineyards to a good standard. We found about 5 acres of , 7 acres of and 5 acres of as well as a small amount of and . The remaining 7 acres had been planted with local grapes, Duras and Braucol, to conform with the Appellation Gaillac guidelines.

That’s quite a number of varieties…

...which my friend Riccardo and I had to gain a better understanding of to start with. I know that my predecessor was blending cuvées that had the Gaillac AOP (Appellation d’Origine Pro- tégée) status. But we wanted to know how each grape variety expresses itself in our . So, we initially made single varietal wines from each grape variety that we found here, including Duras and Braucol. In 2000, we finally decided against the two local grape varieties, because we just weren’t happy with the varietal wines we had obtained. They simply didn’t fit into the style that we were going for with Comte de Thun.

And how did you pick your grape varieties in the end?

As you might imagine, Riccardo wanted to plant more Merlot – he is after all Mr Merlot! And I have to admit, our Merlot has developed very well in its own way. Given the age of the vines, our wines are also showing their own character, and they have a lot of potenti- al. Of the Syrah, we found a plot with old vines, as said, and we loved its quality from the start. Our Cabernet Sauvignon, on the other hand, often doesn’t ripen in this elevated location, so we don’t focus on so much anymore on this grape var

So there are no local grape varieties among the vines you cultivate to- day, meaning that the region does not allow you to market your wines under the AOP Gaillac quality seal. How do you feel about that?

We accept it and we’re going to continue on our own path anyway. Since we didn’t like the results from the local grape varieties, we have replaced them with our favourites – Merlot, Syrah, Cabernet Franc and . However, according to the wine laws, a vineyard’s plots must be filled to at least 60% with local grape varieties, or it loses its AOP Gaillac status, which is exactly what happened. But it isn’t very logical: other Gaillac vineyards that likewise produce red wines from these exact grape varieties are allowed to put the AOP Gaillac seal on their bottles. Why? Because their vineyards have been planted with at least 60% of the main va- rieties Duras, Braucol and Syrah. The first two have to be at least 10% each, and at least 40% taken together. At the same time, Prunelart, which is an autochthonous (native) grape variety, is not classified as a main Gaillac variety, despite being born here. That’s just absurd! Especi- ally when you consider that at least 50% of these grape varieties have to be actually blended in the wine. To put it another way, in Gaillac you can officially only produce cuvées. But very often, that isn’t what actually happens; the quality fanatics produce pure varietals all the time. In the same spirit, in the mid-19th century Dr Jules Guyot recommended blending no more than three grape varieties and was generally for pure varietal.s. He said, “Wine genius comes from the grape variety!” Dr Guyot should know, since he developed one of the vine cultivation methods most used in the world, after all, and his insights are still being taught today. The final kicker is that the Gaillac Appellation for has only existed since 1970. So much fuss about a regulation that isn’t even 50 years old and doesn’t always make sense! Especially once you know the region’s history and the market demands.

The strict wine laws aside, what do you like best about the Gaillac region?

The landscape is breathtakingly beautiful, the food is excellent, and the history of Gaillac is re- ally interesting, too. Again and again, the region failed to play by the rules, which is something I really like. I find the Cathars especially interesting. This was the name for followers of a Christian movement in what was Occitania in the 12th century. One of their strongholds was in the city of , which is near here – they were also known as Albigensians. With its authen- tically lived morality and humility, the Cathar church had a good influence over the people of this region. Even the upper classes valued them, especially Raymond VI, Count of Toulouse, one of the Cathars’ protectors. Naturally, the splendour-loving Roman Catholic Church didn’t like this at all. And then Pope Innocence III persecuted these rebels systematically and brutally in the Albigensian Crusades. So you root for the underdog. Do you see yourself as one?

Definitely. I prefer not to conform too much. At the same time, I also respect others who don’t. So that’s one reason I love the people in this region: I’m on their side! Even though I wasn’t born here, I am one of them. Let’s repeat Gaillac’s history of resistance and fight together for Gaillac’s great wines! I absolutely realise that Riccardo and I have been a thorn in the side of the regional authorities for some time. After all, we’re turning wine from Gaillac on its head. Let it be known that this is only the beginning!

Some have accused you of throwing the region’s traditions overboard because you primarily grow Cabernet Franc, Merlot, Syrah and Pinot Noir.

The opposite is true! I have done a lot of intensive research into this subject. For example, from Études des vignobles de France, Dr Jules Guyot’s definitive book, I learned something very interesting: the area around the river at the time – that is, the middle of the 19th century, but probably much earlier as well – had an “excellent climate not just for the southern grape varieties of the Midi, but especially for the varieties of grape from Gironde, Côte-d’Or, Beaujo- lais and Rhône”. It’s easy enough to figure out which grape varieties are meant here: Cabernet Franc, Cabernet Sauvignon, Merlot and for Gironde, Pinot Noir for Côte-d’Or and Syrah for Rhône. So the grape varieties that we are cultivating at Comte de Thun are indeed very well connected to the region’s history, even if the Gaillac wine bureaucrats don’t want to acknowledge that.

It seems you really have looked into the subject of grape varieties and their histories…

Of course! The oldest grape varieties are without a doubt , Len-de l’el and Ondenc for the whites, and Duras for the reds. Syrah is known from the former Gaul since the 3rd century. Due to the long history of the Gaillac region, it seems fair to assume that this grape variety has been at home in Gaillac since this time, although Dr Guyot only mentions Syrah in Gaillac again in the middle of the 19th century. Cabernet Franc has been famous since the days of Cardinal Richelieu (1585 – 1642). There are hints that it too was cultivated in south-west France – Guyot mentions it likewise from the mid-19th century. Even Pinot Noir, one of the oldest and finest grape varieties in the world, but almost a rarity in Gaillac, was cultivated by Celtic tribes more than 2000 years ago. Once the nobility and monasteries strongly increased demand for Pinot Noir in the Middle Ages, the grape variety’s cultivation region was expanded to include the Gaillac region, amongst others. We are sadly lacking any documents about the whereabouts of the grape variety and its development in the meantime. However, Guyot also reported Pinot Noir in Gaillac in the mid-19th century. We can assume that Pinot Noir has always been grown here, but that it simply vanished after the phylloxera epidemic. Merlot appears not to be as old as the other grape varieties. All the same, its cultivation is confirmed before the phylloxera epidemic, again by Guyot, meaning before 1870. Since Merlot has been at home in Bordeaux since at least the 17th century, and there were very active trade relati- onships between Gaillac and the port city, it isn’t much of a stretch to imagine that Merlot has been grown in Gaillac, too, since the 17th century. In my view, all of these grape varieties have a connection with the Gaillac region and are more than justified in being cultivated here. In Gaillac, there’s been a lot of back and forth, like the rest of the world of wine. Grape varieties get introduced, become unfashionable or fall victim to illness and vanish again. To this day, we don’t know which grape variety has been at home in Gaillac since which year exactly. We’ve searched through a lot of old documents, but we haven’t found any definitive dates as yet. But there is hope: there is still a lot of unprocessed material… (laughs) Why do you care so much about your preferred grape varieties? Couldn’t your terroir also grow a great Duras or Braucol?

We tried that, but it didn’t work. So now I can state with confidence: the answer is a clear “no”. Wines made from the autochthonous grape varieties in this region are usually very rustic, somewhat simplistic and passable at best. They also don’t store very well – they’re made to be drunk right away. Riccardo and I have been won over by this unique Terroir Gaillacois, however. We intend to produce red wines with a worldwide reputation, as they did in the 13th to 17th centuries. Wines that express their heritage in a very individual way, that can be stored and that get better as they mature. Wines that are enjoyed outside of the Gaillac region. The grape varieties that we’ve selected fulfil these criteria, and meet their ideal conditions in the particulars of soil and climate on the Plateau Cordais. Of course there are also fantastic wines from native grape varieties, for example those produced by our friend Michel d’Issaly at Do- maine de la Ramaye. His pure varietal Braucol, Pur Sang, is just phenomenal! Then there’s also Robert Plageoles, whom we rate highly: he saved the Prunelart grape variety from extinction. Some of that wine are absolute killers! It’s very possible that this comes from the close connection these wine growers have with their ancestry – with their history and grape varieties. It seems I can’t quite get that relationship going… (laughs)

It’s really interesting that Gaillac red wines used to have such a good reputation. How far did it go at its height?

English Kings were addicted to Gaillac wines! In 1253, for example, Richard III had 20 barrels of it delivered. And 200 years later, Henry VIII wasn’t just known for outliving his wives, but also for his weakness for Gaillac wines. Around this time, approximately 40% of wine exports that went through the port in Bordeaux actually came from Gaillac. In 1607, the Governor of Bordeaux, the Duke of Espernon, had 40 barrels of Gaillac wine delivered to his castle – inten- ded for his personal use. At the time, Gaillac wines, also known as ‘Crus tarnais’, were known the world over for being easy to store and transport. Not only that, but they would get better and better over time! The robust, dark red wines from Gaillac were popular as ‘Vins médecins’ for blending with Bordeaux wines – this was done to improve the latter. In fact, the situation went so far that Bordeaux traders would sell some of their blended wines under the Appella- tion Bordeaux to the English. When I told Riccardo about that, he could hardly believe it… (laughs)

This brings us to the next point: what were the circumstances of mee- ting Riccardo Cotarella, and how did you two make friends?

As an outsider, I needed someone by my side who really knew about making wine. I’ve had many, many conversations with wine-makers and visited lots of vineyards and cellars, but making wine by myself was a bit too daunting. So, one evening I was at my favourite Itali- an restaurant in Munich, the Locanda Picolit, and told its owner, Danilo Munisso, that I had recently bought a wine-growing estate and was looking for a wine-maker, he said: “I know just the man.” Through a good friend, he arranged the contact with Riccardo Cotarella. Two weeks later, he came to my estate and was totally blown away. We also got along on a personal level right away. I remember well that Riccardo said, on the evening that we met: “We’ll do it. The best wines of the region. Yes, we’ll make it together!” After our first harvest in October 2000, he stuck his neck out even further. He said: “La bomba de la Francia! We are going to make the best wine in France – just wait and see!” (laughs)

You and Riccardo Cotarella are big fans of the Plateau Cordais terroir. What exactly does the term terroir mean to you? And what won you over to your terroir?

In the first instance, it is all about the right grape in the right soil, of course. Secondly, it’s about much, much more – meaning, the people who work on a wine project. People and terroir just cannot be separated. Plateau Cordais is the northern-most part of Gaillac and is seen as the best terroir in the region. The Comte de Thun vineyards are located in the middle of the plateau, around 200-300m higher than the rest of the region. The climate is correspondingly cooler here, and the harvest begins up to 15 days later than in other subregions of Gaillac. The majority of our vineyards also face south, so the grapes benefit from a very long ripening period, which favours complex wines. Finally, the soil here is extremely meagre and calcareous. Our grape varieties thrive very well in this terroir and express it very individually and un- mistakably in the wines. Our wines are clearly differentiated from other wines in this region. Nevertheless, they are perfect ambassadors for Gaillac. I would even say, for the whole wine landscape of south-west France.

What is the difference in style between your wines and the “usual” wines in this region, and why?

Our wines are different on the one hand because our choice of grape varieties is not the same, and on the other, it is due to the single varietal vinification, helping to perfectly express the terroir. But it’s also because of our very low harvests: we limit our purposely to 25 hec- tolitres per hectare. Why is this? How come other winemakers in the region don’t do that as well? I believe that the answer can be found in the region’s history: in the past, Bordeaux kept degrading the Gaillac winemakers to mere grape farmers. So there is almost no self-confidence here and no will to produce outstanding wines. Riccardo and I, however, we’ve come in from the outside. We have seen and experienced a lot and came to it with open eyes and probably a lot of naivety in the beginning. We’re keeping to our own path, and we don’t conform to the local standards; we gladly do without the AOP seal, even. We are sure that this direction will find fans among wine connoisseurs, sooner or later, and will pay off in the end. Not just for us, but for the whole region. And how do you feel about carrying on the wine tradition in this region?

Tradition is very important to us. It’s already a given because of the ancient terroir in Gaillac. I would also love to revive the old tradition of the Vin de Coq. This was a mark in the shape of a rooster which was placed on wine barrels from Gaillac between the 13th and 17th centuries. It was the world’s first brand for wine! At the time, the rooster stood in all of Europe for the best storable wines from Gaillac. I would like to reconnect to this concept again today, and it will of course only be possible by being open, curious and ambitious and by putting things together in a modern way – because it benefits the tradition and enhances the wine landscape. It’s interesting that, these days, Bordeaux is seen as the ultimate wine, as everyone knows. Ho- wever, wine from Gaillac used to be of much better quality! Here’s how it happened: until the end of the 17th century, Bordeaux consisted mainly of Graves and Entre-Deux-Mers. The Mé- doc area, now so famous, didn’t exist then; first, Dutch specialists had to drain the swamps and make the ground suitable for viticulture. At that time, Bordeaux wines weren’t especially good, which is why the local traders purposely blended their wines with Gaillac wines. They even sold these under the Appellation Bordeaux quality seal. That’s just crazy, isn’t it? There are also trade receipts showing that red wine from Gaillac used to cost an impressive 200 Livres. That was as much as the best Graves wines cost! By contrast, nowadays there is not a single really expensive wine from Gaillac. Viticulture had an enormously high significance in Gaillac then. There were many curious laws to protect the vines, for example, during grape ripening and harvest, there was a monetary fine for hunting with dogs. Some of the vineyards were guarded 24 hours a day. Vine thieves were humiliated in public and banned from their towns for up to ten years. It sounds almost funny today, but at the time it must have been horrible. (laughs) And it shows that in this region, good wine had the highest cultural value of all. That’s where I want to get to again.

If Gaillac used to be so famous, how come that wines from this region are hardly known today?

In 1709, there was the coldest winter ever in Gaillac. The majority of vines froze to death at temperatures below -15°C. Even wine barrels burst in the cellars! Winemakers therefore had no income and had to invest a lot of money. Many poorly thought-out decisions were made in favour of productivity, which lead to decreasing quality: they produced too much too cheaply. In addition, a law was passed in 1731 under which they had to cultivate less wine and more wheat. And on top of that, there were high taxes whenever Gaillac wines passed through the port in Bordeaux. At one point, Gaillac wines were only permitted to be traded in Bordeaux once the last barrel of had been sold! These developments had really severe consequences on the region – and still have, which is a great pity. If you look at the history of the region and question the reasons for this decline, there is only one way forward: we have to fight so that Gaillac will become again what it once was! And that can only happen with quality, quality, quality. At Comte de Thun, we are ready for action… It seems there’s much to do, then. Where do you see Comte de Thun in 20 years?

I’m hoping of course that my son Philipp will follow in my footsteps and will have taken over at the wheel, although I will leave that decision up to him. I also see winemakers across the whole Gaillac region proudly producing single varietal wines as absolute expressions of their terroir and bringing about a renaissance of the Vin de Coq, which was in demand across Europe in the 13th to 17th centuries. Finally, I also see an Appellation of our own for Haut Pays or Plateau Cordais. The Italian Marchesi Mario Incisa della Rocchetta, who fought relentlessly for the quality of Sassicaia, is a great role model here. It may sound bold, but I am absolutely convinced that this region has unbelievable potential.

You and Riccardo are still relative newcomers among the Gaillac wine- makers. How do you see your role among the region’s winemakers?

We are friends with some of the winemakers, at least those who want to produce good wines. This includes Robert and Bernard Plageoles, Michel d’Issaly and Laurent Cazottes. What connects us is our passion for good wine and for the country, as well as faith in the potential of this region, even though they are deeply embedded in the region and their connection to regional grape varieties is of course quite different from ours. Whenever we can, we meet up, cook food and sample our wines. We respect each other very much, even though our philosophies differ.

Many thanks, Graf von Thun, for an interesting conversation and very personal insights into your project and philosophy.