Volume V Tuesday No. 13 20th August, 1963

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES

DEWAN RA'AYAT

(HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES)

OFFICIAL REPORT

CONTENTS BILL: Malaysia Bill (debate continued) [Col. 1335]

EXEMPTED BUSINESS (Motion) [Col. 1386]

DI-CHETAK DI-JABATAN CHETAK KERAJAAN OLEH THOR BENG CHONG, A.M.N., PENCHETAK KERAJAAN KUALA LUMPUR 1964 FEDERATION OF MALAYA DEWAN RA'AYAT (HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES) Official Report

Fifth Session of the First Dewan Ra'ayat

Tuesday 20th August, 1963 The House met at Ten o'clock a.m.

PRESENT: The Honourable Mr Speaker, DATO' HAJI MOHAMED NOAH BIN OMAR, P.M.N., S.P.M.J., D.P.M.B., P.I.S., J.P. „ the Prime Minister, Minister of External Affairs and Minister of Information and Broadcasting, Y.T.M. TUNKU ABDUL RAHMAN PUTRA AL-HAJ, K.O.M. (Kuala Kedah). „ the Deputy Prime Minister, Minister of Defence and Minister of Rural Development, TUN HAJI ABDUL RAZAK BIN DATO' HUSSAIN, S.M.N. (Pekan). „ the Minister of Internal Security and Minister of the Interior, DATO' DR ISMAIL BIN DATO' HAJI ABDUL RAHMAN, P.M.N. (Johor Timor). the Minister of Finance, ENCHE' TAN SIEW SIN, J.P. (Melaka Tengah). „ the Minister of Works, Posts and Telecommunications, DATO' V. T. SAMBANTHAN, P.M.N. (Sungei Siput). the Minister without Portfolio, DATO' SULEIMAN BIN DATO' HAJI ABDUL RAHMAN, P.M.N. (Muar Selatan). the Minister of Transport, DATO' HAJI SARDON BIN HAJI JUBIR, P.M.N. (Pontian Utara). the Minister without Portfolio, DATO' ONG YOKE LIN, P.M.N. (Ulu Selangor). „ the Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives, ENCHE' MOHAMED KHIR BIN JOHARI (Kedah Tengah). „ the Minister of Labour and Social Welfare, ENCHE' BAHAMAN BIN SAMSUDIN (Kuala Pilah). „ the Minister of Health, ENCHE' ABDUL RAHMAN BIN HAJI TALIB (Kuantan). „ the Minister of Commerce and Industry, DR LIM SWEE AUN, J.P. (Larut Selatan). „ the Minister of Education, TUAN HAJI ABDUL HAMID KHAN BIN HAJI SAKHAWAT ALI KHAN, J.M.N., J.P. (Batang Padang). „ the Assistant Minister of the Interior, ENCHE' CHEAH THEAM SWEE (Bukit Bintang). „ the Assistant Minister of Labour and Social Welfare, ENCHE' V. MANICKAVASAGAM, J.M.N., P.J.K. (Klang). 1331 20 AUGUST 1963 1332

The Honourable the Assistant Minister of Commerce and Industry, TUAN HAJI ABDUL KHALID BIN AWANG OSMAN (Kota Star Utara). the Assistant Minister of Information and Broadcasting ENCHE' MOHAMED ISMAIL BIN MOHAMED YUSOF (Jerai). ENCHE' ABDUL AZIZ BIN ISHAK (Kuala Langat). ENCHE' ABDUL GHANI BIN ISHAK, A.M.N. (Melaka Utara). ENCHE' ABDUL RAUF BIN A. RAHMAN, P.J.K., K.M.N. (Krian Laut). ENCHE' ABDUL RAZAK BIN HAJI HUSSIN (Lipis). ENCHE' ABDUL SAMAD BIN OSMAN (Sungei Patani). TOH MUDA HAJI ABDULLAH BIN HAJI ABDUL RAOF (Kuala Kangsar). TUAN HAJI ABDULLAH BIN HAJI MOHD. SALLEH, A.M.N., P.I.S. (Segamat Utara). TUAN HAJI AHMAD BIN ABDULLAH (Kota Bharu Hilir). ENCHE' AHMAD BIN ARSHAD, A.M.N. (Muar Utara). ENCHE' AHMAD BIN MOHAMED SHAH, S.M.J. (Johor Bahru Barat). TUAN HAJI AHMAD BIN SAAID (Seberang Utara). ENCHE' AHMAD BIN HAJI YUSOF, P.J.K. (Krian Darat). TUAN HAJI AZAHARI BIN HAJI IBRAHIM (Kubang Pasu Barat). ENCHE' AZIZ BIN ISHAK (Muar Dalam). DR BURHANUDDIN BIN MOHD. NOOR (Besut). ENCHE' CHAN CHONG WEN, A.M.N. (Kluang Selatan). ENCHE' CHAN SIANG SUN (Bentong). ENCHE' CHAN SWEE HO (Ulu Kinta). ENCHE' CHAN YOON ONN (Kampar). ENCHE' CHIN SEE YIN (Seremban Timor). DATIN FATIMAH BINTI HAJI HASHIM, P.M.N. (Jitra-Padang Terap). ENCHE' GEH CHONG KEAT, K.M.N. (Penang Utara). ENCHE' HAMZAH BIN ALANG, A.M.N. (Kapar). ENCHE' HANAFI BIN MOHD. YUNUS, A.M.N. (Kulim Utara). ENCHE' HARUN BIN ABDULLAH, A.M.N. (Baling). ENCHE' HARUN BIN PILUS (Trengganu Tengah). TUAN HAJI HASAN ADLI BIN HAJI ARSHAD (Kuala Trengganu Utara). TUAN HAJI HASSAN BIN HAJI AHMAD (Tumpat). ENCHE' HASSAN BIN MANSOR (Melaka Selatan). ENCHE' HUSSEIN BIN TO' MUDA HASSAN (Raub). ENCHE' HUSSEIN BIN MOHD. NOORDIN, A.M.N., P.J.K. (Parit). TUAN HAJI HUSSAIN RAHIMI BIN HAJI SAMAN (Kota Bharu Hulu). „ ENCHE' IBRAHIM BIN ABDUL RAHMAN (Seberang Tengah). „ ENCHE' ISMAIL BIN IDRIS (Penang Selatan). 20 AUGUST 1963 1334

ENCHE' ISMAIL BIN HAJI KASSIM (Kuala Trengganu Selatan). ENCHE' KANG KOCK SENG (Batu Pahat). ENCHE' K. KARAM SINGH (Damansara). CHE' KHADIJAH BINTI MOHD. SIDEK (Dungun). ENCHE' KHONG KOK YAT (Batu Gajah). ENCHE' LEE SAN CHOON, K.M.N. (Kluang Utara). ENCHE' LEE SECK FUN (Tanjong Malim). ENCHE' LEE SIOK YEW, A.M.N. (Sepang). ENCHE' LIM JOO KONG, J.P. (Alor Star). ENCHE' LIM KEAN SIEW (Dato Kramat). ENCHE' LIU YOONG PENG (Rawang). ENCHE' T. MAHIMA SINGH, J.P. (Port Dickson). ENCHE' MOHAMED BIN UJANG (Jelebu-Jempol). ENCHE' MOHAMED ABBAS BIN AHMAD (Hilir Perak). ENCHE' MOHAMED ASRI BIN HAJI MUDA (Pasir Puteh). ENCHE' MOHAMED NOR BIN MOHD. DAHAN (Ulu Perak). DATO' MOHAMED HANIFAH BIN HAJI ABDUL GHANI, P.J.K. (Pasir Mas Hulu). ENCHE' MOHAMED YUSOF BIN MAHMUD, A.M.N. (Temerloh). TUAN HAJI MOKHTAR BIN HAJI ISMAIL (Perlis Selatan). ENCHE' NG ANN TECK (Batu). TUAN HAJI OTHMAN BIN ABDULLAH (Tanah Merah). ENCHE' OTHMAN BIN ABDULLAH, A.M.N. (Perlis Utara). ENCHE' QUEK KAI DONG, J.P. (Seremban Barat). TUAN HAJI REDZA BIN HAJI MOHD. SAID, J.P. (Rembau-Tampin). ENCHE' SEAH TENG NGIAB (Muar Pantai). ENCHE' D. R. SEENIVASAGAM (Ipoh). ENCHE' S. P. SEENIVASAGAM (Menglembu). TUAN SYED ESA BIN ALWEE, J.M.N., S.M.J., P.I.S. (Batu Pahat Dalam). TUAN SYED HASHIM BIN SYED AJAM, A.M.N., P.J.K., J.P. (Sabak Bernam). TUAN SYED JA'AFAR BIN HASAN ALBAR, J.M.N. (Johor Tenggara). ENCHE' TAJUDIN BIN ALI, P.J.K. (Larut Utara). ENCHE' TAN CHENG BEE, J.P. (Bagan). ENCHE' TAN PHOCK KIN (Tanjong). ENCHE' TAN TYE CHEK (Kulim-Bandar Bahru). TENGKU BESAR INDERA RAJA IBNI AL-MARHUM SULTAN IBRAHIM, D.K., P.M.N. (Ulu Kelantan). DATO' TEOH CHZE CHONG, D.P.M.J., J.P. (Segamat Selatan). ENCHE' TOO JOON HING (Teluk Anson). ENCHE' V. VEERAPPEN (Seberang Selatan). WAN MUSTAPHA BIN HAJI ALI (Kelantan Hilir). WAN SULAIMAN BIN WAN TAM, P.J.K. (Kota Star Selatan). 1335 20 AUGUST 1963 1336

The Honourable WAN YAHYA BIN HAJI WAN MOHAMED, K.M.N. (Kemaman). ENCHE' YAHYA BIN HAJI AHMAD (Bagan Datoh). ENCHE' YEOH TAT BENG (Bruas). ENCHE' YONG WOO MING (Sitiawan). PUAN HAJJAH ZAIN BINTI SULAIMAN, J.M.N., P.I.S. (Pontian Selatan). TUAN HAJI ZAKARIA BIN HAJI MOHD. TAIB (Langat). „ ENCHE' ZULKIFLEE BIN MUHAMMAD (Bachok).

ABSENT: The Honourable ENCHE' AHMAD BOESTAMAM (Setapak). „ ENCHE' V. DAVID (Bungsar). „ ENCHE' MOHAMED DAHARI BIN HAJI MOHD. ALI (Kuala Selangor). NIK MAN BIN NIK MOHAMED (Pasir Mas Hilir). ENCHE' TAN KEE GAK (Bandar Melaka).

IN ATTENDANCE: The Honourable the Minister without Portfolio, ENCHE' KHAW KAI-BOH, P.J.K. PRAYERS Select Committee. Now, I want to know whether he wants to proceed (Mr Speaker in the Chair) with that or not. BILL Enche' K. Karam Singh (Daman- sara): Mr Speaker, Sir, we do ask for THE MALAYSIA BILL a Division. (Select Committee) Mr Speaker: Honourable Members Mr Speaker: Honourable Members, who want a Division please rise in last night, before I adjourned the sitting their seats. (More than 15 Members of the House, the Member for Daman- rise in their seats). sara asked for a Division on the ques­ House divides: Ayes—17; Noes— tion that the Bill be referred to a 67; Abstentions—Nil.

AYES Tuan Haji Ahmad bin Abdullah Tuan Haji Hussain Rahimi bin Enche' S. P. Seenivasagam Haji Saman Dr Burhanuddin bin Mohd. Noor Enche' Tan Phock Kin Enche' Chan Yoon Onn Enche' K. Karam Singh Enche' Too Joon Hing Enche' Chan Swee Ho Che' Khadijah binti Mohd. Sidtek Enche' Harun bin Pilus Enche' Mohamed Asri bin Haji Enche' V. Veerappen Tnan Haji Hassan bin Haji Muda Wan Mustapha bin Haji Ali Ahmad Enche' D. R. Seenivasagam Enche' Zulkiflee bin Muhammad

NOES Tunku Abdul Rahman Putra Enche' Mohamed Khir bin Johari Enche' Abdul Samad bin Osman AI-Haj Enche' Bahaman bin Samsudin Toh Muda Haji Abdullah bin Tnn Haji Abdul Razak bin Tuan Haji Abdul Hamid Khan Haji Abdul Raof Dato' Hussain bin Haji Sakhawat Ali Khan Tuan Haji Abdullah bin Mohd. Dato' Dr Ismail bin Dato' Haji Salleh Abdul Rahman Enche' Cheah Theam Swee Enche' V. Manickavasagam Enche' Ahmad bin Arshad Enche' Tan Siew Sin Enche' Mohamed Ismail bin Enche' Ahmadl bin Mohamed Dato' V. T. Sambanthan Mohamed Yusof Shah Dato' Suleiman bin Dato' Haji Enche' Abdul Ghani bin Ishak Tuan Haji Ahmad bin Saaid Abdul Rahman Enche' Abdul Rauf bin Enche' Ahmad bin Haji Yusof Dato' Haji Sardon bin Haji Jubir A. Rahman Enche' Aziz bin Ishak Dato' Ong Yoke Lin Enche' Abdul Razak bin Haji Enche' Chan Chong Wen Husin 1337 20 AUGUST 1963 1338

Enche' Chan Siang Sun Enche' Lee Seek Fun Tuan Syed Esa bin Alwee Datin Fatimah binti Haji Hashim Enche' Lim Joo Kong Tuan Syed Hashim bin Syed Enche' Geh Chong Keat Enche' T. Mahima Singh Ajam Tuan Syed Ja'afar bin Hasan Enche' Hamzah bin Alang Enche' Mohamed bin Ujang Albar Enche' Hanafi bin Mohd. Ynnus Enche' Mohamed Abbas bin Enche' Tajudin bin Ali Enche' Harun bin Abdullah Ahmad Enche' Mohamed Nor bin Mohd. Enche' Tan Cheng Bee Enche' Hassan bin Mansor Dahan Enche' Tan Tye Chek Enche' Hussein bin To' Muda Enche' Mohamed Yusof bin Tengku Besar Indra Raja ibni Hassan Mahmud Sultan Ibrahim Enche' Hussein bin Mohd. Tuan Haji Mokhtar bin Haji Dato' Teoh Chze Chong Nordin Ismail Wan Suleiman bin Wan Tam Enche' Ibrahim bin Abdul Tuan Haji Othman bin Abdullah Rahman Wan Yahya bin Haji Wan Enche' Othman bin Abdullah Enche' Ismail bin Idris Mohamed Enche' Quek Kai Dong Enche' Yahya bin Haji Ahmad Enche' Ismail bin Haji Kassim Tuan Haji Redza bin Haji Mohd. Enche' Yong Woo Ming Enche' Kang Kock Seng Said Puan Hajjah Zain binti Sulaiman Enche' Lee San Choon Enche' Seah Teng Ngiab Tuan Haji Zakaria bin Haji Mohd. Taib ABSTENTIONS Nil

Question that the Bill be referred any amendment which is going to to a Select Committee accordingly change fundamentally the basis of the negatived. Constitution must be done with the Bill committed to a Committee of the agreement of all the member States. whole House. However, Sir, as far as the provisions of our Federal Constitution are con­ House immediately resolved itself cerned, they do not envisage that any into a Committee of the whole House. amendment will be of such a funda­ Bill considered in Committee. mental nature; and I, therefore, feel, Sir, that the Government is trying to (Mr Speaker in the Chair) pull a fast one over the people of this country by introducing this amendment Clauses 1 to 5— and by stating that to give effect to Enche' Tan Phock Kin (Tanjong): the Agreement it is necessary to amend Mr Chairman, Sir, I would like to the Constitution. I, therefore, feel that, refer to Clause 3, which states that in view of my explanation, the Govern­ "the Constitution shall be amended . . ment should agree to withdraw this . . . .", and I think it arose from the amendment and seek to make the preamble which states that it is neces­ necessary changes by submitting a sary to amend the Constitution. I new Constitution for consideration. submit here, Sir, that, in view of the fact that the amendment to the Consti­ Enche' Mohamed Asri bin Haji tution will in effect change the whole Muda (Pasir Puteh): Tuan Pengerusi, basis of our present Constitution to an bagi pehak saya merasa bahawa di- extent not envisaged by any of the dalam kita hendak meminda Per- member States when they first joined lembagaan ini yang merupakan satu the Federation—and that is a very rombakan kapada kedudokan negara important consideration—it is wrong kita dan merupakan satu pindaan yang for the Constitution to be amended. I pokok di-dalam bentok negara kita ini, disagree that to give effect to the maka sangat-lah patut dan mustahak Agreement it is necessary to amend bahawa sa-belum pindaan di-lakukan, the Constitution, because I submit that maka kapada Kerajaan Negeri di- giving effect to the Agreement can be dalam Persekutuan Tanah Melayu ini, done without amending the Constitu­ mereka itu hendak-lah di-beri peluang tion. It can be done by submitting a bersama bagi mengkaji tentang soal2 new Constitution for consideration by yang besar, supaya pembentokan bagi all the member States. I feel, Sir, that sa-buah negara pada masa akan da- that will be a more proper way of tang akan dapat di-adakan perhubo- doing it, because, as we are all aware, ngan yang baik di-antara tiap2 Negeri 1339 20 AUGUST 1963 1340 yang menjadi unit di-dalam Perseku- of those States; and, thirdly, the Con­ tuan pada masa akan datang. ference of Rulers is mentioned as having consented to the passing of this Sa-memang-lah kalau di-pandang sa- Act. And it straightaway goes on to say pintas lalu pun, Tuan Pengerusi, bahawa negeri2 di-dalam Borneo itu, that this Malaysia Bill be now enacted. saperti yang terkandong dalam Clause Mr Chairman, Sir, there is a very 4 cheraian (2) (b) yang menunjokkan fundamental defect in this preamble dua buah Negeri dalam Borneo itu, di- which invalidates the entire Bill, beri kesempatan yang chukup luas bagi because if a premise is missing, it menchampori perundingan dalam sa- affects the entire Bill, and that defect buah negara baharu, akan tetapi bagai- shows that this Act is fundamentally mana-kah kedudokan-nya bagi Negeri2 incurable. What is that defect, Mr dalam Persekutuan Tanah Melayu Chairman, Sir? This preamble is one­ saperti yang terkandong di-dalam sided. It does not state—perhaps the cheraian (2) (a) yang merupakan unit Government dares not state—in this di-dalam negara Persekutuan Tanah preamble that the British colonies of Melayu ini. Kalau kita perhatikan ka- North Borneo and Sarawak and the pada bentok bendera baharu bagi State of Singapore have agreed to join negara Malaysia yang akan di-bentok into this Federation of Malaysia. Why pada masa akan datang ini yang mem- has the Government not dared to put punyai' gambar bintang 14 buchu yang in this fundamental premise, to enable erti-nya tiap2 satu buchu itu merupakan the other side to come into this Malay­ satu unit di-dalam negara Persekutuan, sian Federation? So far as this premise ma'ana-nya tiap2 negeri di-dalam Per­ states "the wishes of the Government sekutuan Tanah Melayu ini ada-lah of the Federation of Malaya", it may merupakan satu unit, kalau dia meru­ state a fact that this Legislature pakan satu unit maka berma'ana-lah is dominated by the Government, but dia akan sama dengan unit2 yang lain it does not state at all that the other saperti Sabah, Sarawak dan Singapura. supposed parties to this Agreement Jadi kalau sa-kira-nya hendak di-sifat- have consented to come into Malaysia. kan semua negeri2 di-dalam Perseku­ tuan Tanah Melayu ini sa-bagai satu Mr Chairman: Order, order. We are unit sahaja, maka tentu-lah Negeri2 not dealing with the preamble. The di-Borneo itu pun hendak di-sifatkan House is now dealing with Clauses 1 juga sa-bagai satu unit, saperti Sabah to 5. We are coming back to the pre­ dan Sarawak, dan ada-lah di-harap per- amble at the end, after we have finished kara ini tidak akan berlaku. Jadi, with the clauses of this Bill. patut-lah pada hari ini di-beri peluang Enche' K. Karam Singh: It is rather kapada Negeri2 di-dalam Persekutuan odd, Sir. It is like putting the cart Tanah Melayu ini mengkaji sama di- before the horse (Laughter). dalam rundingan bagi pembentokan Malaysia ini. The Deputy Prime Minister (Tun Haji Abdul Razak): Mr Chairman, Sir, in Enche' K. Karam Singh (Daman- reply to the Honourable Member for sara): Mr Chairman, Sir, if we read Tanjong, I have explained, when the preamble we will find that the pre­ introducing this Bill, that although it mises are stated: firstly, that on behalf has been found necessary in some of the Federation it has been agreed, respects to amend the Constitution as among other things, that the British it applies to the existing States, these colonies of North Borneo and Sarawak amendments do not affect the sub­ and the State of Singapore shall be stance. They affect the text of the federated with the existing States of the Constitution. And as I have said, they Federation as the States of Sabah, are rather to preserve the position of Sarawak and Singapore, and that the the States and to fit in the new States name of the Federation should there­ in the Constitution without disturbing after be Malaysia; secondly, that it is the constitution of the existing States. necessary to amend the Constitution of So there is no question really of having 1341 20 AUGUST 1963 1342 The actual effect of the Honourable change the substance of the present Member's suggestion is that we should Constitution. If that remark refers have a completely new Bill and a new solely to the existing States in the Constitution. The intention here is to Federation of Malaya, then I can agree amend the existing Constitution. with him. He must realise that with because we are bringing in three new the introduction of the new States, the States and quite naturally certain pro­ position of the present States with visions of the Constitution affecting the regard to the new States are entirely existing States have to be amended. But different, though their position among these amendments do not affect the sub­ themselves are somewhat the same. stance. I have also explained that we It must be realised that, when the have had consultations with the Con­ Federation of Malaya Constitution was ference of Rulers, and, in accordance first promulgated, the member States with our procedure and practice, we came into the Federation with the full have carried out all the consultations realisation that as far as their position necessary. was concerned,- with regard to the other member States of the Federation, there Enche' ZulkiOee bin Muhammad was very little difference. But the (Bachok): Tuan Pengerusi, saya hairan introduction of amendments to the bagaimana Yang Berhormat Timbalan Constitution has changed this position Perdana Menteri boleh mengatakan most fundamentally. Singapore is being bahawa pindaan ini dan Act for given special rights with regard to Malaysia ini tidak mengubah "substance labour and education and there are of the Constitution." Perlembagaan special financial provisions; there are Persekutuan Tanah Melayu ada-lah also similar things with regard to the satu Perlembagaan yang meluluskan Bornean territories. It is my submission perhubongan negeri2 dengan negeri2 here, Sir, that if it is the intention of yang lain, dan dengan perhubongan itu the Government to introduce all these terbentok sa-buah Persekutuan yang di­ provisions, then the original member namakan Persekutuan Tanah Melayu. States should have an opportunity of Asas bagi perhubongan itu telah di­ 2 re-determining their position. Other­ nyatakan di-dalam pembahagian kuasa wise, it will be most unfair to them, dan tanggong-jawab serta telah di­ because when they first joined the nyatakan pula di-dalam-nya berbagai Federation they were made to believe perkara hubongan2 kerja di-antara Ke­ 2 that all States in the Federation would rajaan Pusat dengan Kerajaan Negeri. be treated alike financially and other­ Sa-lain daripada itu, Tuan Pengerusi, wise; and though quite a number of di-dalam Perlembagaan itu ternyata States, like Penang, were not satisfied bahawa dasar pembahagian yang ter­ with the arrangements, they felt that in sebut tadi serta susunan2 kerja-nya ada­ the national interests it would be to lah di-asaskan atas persamaan atas ke­ the benefit of all if they should compro­ dudokan yang sama bagi tiap2 negeri mise on those particular issues. But itu. Maka "substance" yang sama pada when the new amendments are put tiap2 negeri kita ubah apabila kita through, the position will no longer masokkan Singapura, Sarawak dan be the same and it is only correct that Borneo Utara. Tidak-kah mengubah every State should be given an opportu­ keadaan "substance" besar yang patut nity of negotiating for any new changes di-jadikan satu perkara yang mesti di­ and this is only possible, if we allow fikirkan bersama oleh Kerajaan2 itu them to consider the new arrangements dengan Kerajaan Pusat? Jadi saya with the introduction of the new Consti­ nampak hujah Yang Berhormat Tim­ tution. Further on, Sir, it will be seen balan Perdana Menteri itu tidak dapat very clearly from Clause 4 that the di-terima. Constitution is substantially changed in spite of the assurance given by the Enche' Tan Phock Kin: Mr Chair­ Honourable the Deputy Prime Minis­ man, Sir, I am afraid I cannot agree ter that the Constitution is not changed with the Deputy Prime Minister when in substance, because in the old he says that the amendments do not Constitution the States were named by 1343 20 AUGUST 1963 1344 themselves-namely, Pahang, K~dah, ther or not they are agreeable to the Kelantan, Malacca, etc. They were not new changes. This fundamental idea' is categorised as in the present amendment embodied in our Societies Ordinance, and the motive of categorising them is in our Trade Union Ordinance; and obvious to the Honourable Deputy what is good for a trade union or for Prime Minister and to anyone reading a society which embraces the whole the Constitution. It has changed population, of our country, why should substantially the provisions of the it not be good enough for the nation? original Constitution. The Honourable I submit, Sir, that this is a very good Deputy Prime Minister is basing his analogy, and unless the Deputy Prime arguments on the fact that it is not Minister can give a suitable explanation necessary to have a new Constitution as to why he disagrees with this because the old Constitution has not argument, then I feel that he should been changed in substance, but I agree with the suggestion put forward submit here, Sir, that I have proved by us. to him that he is quite wrong in this respect and in view of that . . . . . Tuan Haji Ahmad bin Saaid (Sebe­ rang Utara): Tuan Pengerusi, Yang Tun Haji Abdul Razak: Sir, on a Berhormat wakil dari Tanjong pada point of clarification-I never said that pendapat saya ada keliru sadikit ber­ the Constitution has not been changed kenaan dengan chara penubohan Per­ substantially. What I said is that the sekutuan Malaysia ini. Ahli Yang position of the existing States, the Berhormat itu memberikan mithalan­ constitutional position, of the existing nya, kata-nya kalau sa-saorang itu States of the Federation has not changed hendak masok kapada satu2 persatuan, substantially. The Constitution, of maka patut-lah konon-nya persatuan course, is being amended by this Bill itu menerima fikiran daripada ahli itu. here. lni ada-lah salah, kerana tiap2 persa­ tuan itu ada undang2 tuboh-nya yang Enche' Tan Phock Kin: Sir, I must tetap yang di-daftarkan; bagi tiap2 ahli, thank the Honourable Deputy Prime kalau mengaku patoh kapada undang2 Minister for his clarification. I have itu, maka baharu-lah dia di-terima. also clarified very clearly in the course Chara penubohan Malaysia ini, saperti of my explanation just now that it is yang telah di-chakapkan oleh Ahli true to say that the position of the Yang Berhormat itu beberapa kali di­ existing States of the Federation of dalam Dewan ini ia-itu konon-nya Malaya has not changed substantially, negeri2 yang hendak masok di-dalam but this is quite beside the point, Persekutuan ini ada di-dapati bedza­ because the position of the existing membedza atau ta' adil. Saya ingin States of the Federation of Malaya menchabar Ahli Yang Berhormat itu, will have to be looked at from the point tunjokkan di-mana-kah ada sa-buah of view with regard to the other new negara di-dalam dunia ini, baik Ame­ States; and if the position as to the rika Sharikat mahu pun Jepon atau other States have changed substantially, India yang undang2 negeri-nya lima then it is correct, to base it on the puloh buah negeri dalam Amerika argument of the Deputy Prime Minis­ Sharikat itu, dan di-India hampir lima ter, that they should be given an puloh buah negeri juga yang undang2 opportunity to discuss this particular negeri-nya sama dengan undang2 negeri problem, to negotiate on this particular yang lain, dan Perlembagaan negeri-nya issue, because if you ask somebody to sama dengan Perlembagaan negeri bagi join a special club, or to join any club, semua sa-kali. Saya chabar Ahli Yang or any organisation, on the lines of Berhormat itu, kalau boleh tunjokkan certain rules and regulations, and if mana satu negeri yang sama undang2 you were to admit new members based Perlembagaan-nya dan undang2 negeri­ on new rules and regulations, and new nya. Chara yang kita buat ini, Tuan privileges, then it is only correct that Pengerusi, sa-bagaimana yang di­ the original members of the club should terangkan oleh Ahli Yang Berhormat be given an opportunity to decide whe- itu ...... 1345 20 AUGUST 1963 1346

Enche' Lim Kean Slew: Mr Speaker, situation has not changed, or that the Sir, I have listened to the speech both relationships have not changed. in English and in Malay, but I am afraid that I do not understand what Now, Mr Chairman, Sir, let us deal he is trying to say. Could he please with the position of the Rulers and clarify what he means when he said the States first. When the Constitution to demonstrate where in the world of the Federation of Malaya was are there similar constitutions. There discussed, there was no such thing as are many points of constitutions similar the State Assemblies—for example, to those of America. Which portion the State Assembly of Penang which does he mean? I heard both the English was set up. The position of the Rulers and Malay versions but I still do not were as Rulers of their States, and understand. Maybe he is speaking one under the advice of Dato' Neil Lawson of these new languages? they came to an agreement with regard to their own rights within their Mr Chairman: I can understand respective States and in relation to what he said all right. (To Tuan Haji the Federation of Malaya, and it is Ahmad bin Saaid) Make it as short embodied in our Constitution that as possible. nothing shall affect the rights of the Tuan Haji Ahmad bin Saaid: Jadi Rulers without their unanimous perkara yang di-bangkitkan oleh Ahli consent. Yang Berhormat dari Tanjong itu The Honourable the Deputy Prime mengatakan ada bedza-membedza di- 2 Minister said yesterday that, as the antara negeri yang hendak masok di- Honourable Prime Minister has dalam Persekutuan Malaysia ini. Yang informed the House, the Government sa-tahu saya di-mana juga dalam negeri has consulted the Rulers on several Persekutuan, chara yang kita bentok occasions with regard to their rights ini berdasar kapada menghormati hak in the new Federation. asasi bagi negeri2 itu yang mana yang patut masok dalam Perlembagaan Now, Mr Chairman, Sir, on the Negeri-nya dan undang2 yang sesuai establishment of the Federation of dengan negeri-nya, maka itu-lah yang Malaya, there came into being State kita terima. Assemblies and State Executive Com­ mittees known as "Ex-Cos" and there Enche' Lim Kean Siew: Mr Chair­ also came provisions which lay down man, Sir, we are dealing with consti­ that on all matters regarding the State, tutional matters, and constitutional the Governor-in-Council shall act— law itself is a specialist subject and it the "Governor-in-Council" means the would, I think, do great justice to this Governor acting in conformity with the House and to the people of Malaya members of the Executive Council of at large if those people who do not the State—according to the resolutions know constitutional law keep quiet. of the State executive. I mean, Sir, that I have not heard as much nonsense as I have heard in the My Honourable friend, the Member last five minutes. If there is no constitu­ for Kelantan Hilir, said yesterday that tion, then we have to apply, like in on the formation of Malaysia the England, constitutional practice, which Government did not consult the States. arises from convention. If we do not That was denied by the Honourable have a constitution, and where a colony Deputy Prime Minister on the argu­ wishes to be independent, there are ment that the Rulers had been provisions in the United Nations which consulted. Mr Chairman, Sir, there is allow for certain procedures. Relation­ a difference constitutionally between the ships between States are governed to Rulers per se (by themselves) and the some extent by international law, which rights of the Rulers with regard to many people say is the law of might their rights embodied in the persons rather than the law of right. Where of the Rulers, and the constitutional we take in new States, as my Honour­ position with regard to the Rulers-in- able friend, the Member for Tanjong, Council. The Rulers-in-Council decide has stated, one cannot say that the affairs of the State. The Rulers in 1347 20 AUGUST 1963 1348 themselves can only decide their ship, as my Honourable friend from personal rights. So, when the Honour­ Tanjong was saying, is a matter of able Deputy Prime Minister and the action and inter-action. There is a Honourable Prime Minister said difference between relationship between yesterday that they had consulted the the States of the Federation inter se Rulers, one must be clear that what amongst themselves, and relationship was meant was that they had consulted of each and every Malayan State with the Rulers as regard their rights— regard to the Bornean States, and with their own rights. regard to Singapore. In other words, the relationship between Johore, Kelan­ Now, Mr Chairman, Sir, it can be tan, Kedah, Malacca, Negeri Sembilan, said that the Honourable Member for Pahang, Penang, Perak, Perlis, Selangor Kelantan Hilir was wrong to say that and Trengganu may not have changed, they should have consulted the Rulers- but we cannot say that the relationship in-Council, because matters of the of Johore to the Bornean States and Federation and admission of new States to the Singapore State has not been may be taken by the Government, changed, because that is a new relation­ according to our Constitution without consultation with the Rulers-in-Council ship. And, similarly, the relationship of those States, in other words, of between the State of Singapore and the Johore, Kedah, Kelantan, Malacca, States of Borneo with Johore must Negeri Sembilan, Pahang, Penang, influence the relationship between Perak, Perlis, Selangor, and Trengganu. Johore, Kedah, Kelantan, Malacca, On the other hand that may be correct, Negeri Sembilan, and so on. Thus, it but that is entirely another point. But can also be said that where the relation­ what was wanted by the Honourable ship between Kedah and Singapore and Member for Kelantan Hilir was the Bornean States have affected whether or not the Ruler-in-Council Kedah, thus the relationship between was consulted, as opposed to the Ruler Kedah and Penang must also have per se. If one did consult the Ruler-in- thus been affected. So relationship Council of Kelantan, one must have between the Federation of the Malayan consulted the Executive Council com­ States among themselves may not have posed of my friends from the Pan- changed, but by the introduction of new Malayan Islamic Party—and it is quite States, the relationship with one another clear that if one consulted the Execu­ of those States must have in some tive Council of the P.M.I.P., they would extent been affected indirectly; we not agree to the constitutional amend­ cannot say that relationships can be ments as proposed in this Bill. Of kept in water-tight compartments. Now, course, it is quite true to say that it let us take one State for instance, is generally accepted that where there Penang fought for autonomy in certain is no constitutional provision, conven­ matters—in fact, Mr Chairman, Sir, tion requires, both internationally and if you remember, the late Mr Heah nationally, that the wishes of the Joo Seang people be consulted and be properly Tuan Haji Ahmad bin Saaid (Sebe- determined. Whether the wishes of the rang Utara): Mr Chairman, Sir, on a Kelantan people had been properly point of order, Standing Order 55 (1): consulted or not, I cannot say, but "Any Committee to which a Bill is com­ I am sure that, as represented by the mitted shall not debate the principle of the P.M.I.P., they could not have been Bill but only its details." consulted; if they had been consulted, Kelantan could not have agreed to May the House know what section this Bill. the Honourable Member is referring to? He is not touching on the details. Mr Chairman, Sir, the other point Mr Chairman: I think he is quite in which has been dealt with by the order. Please proceed. Honourable Prime Minister is this: the relationships, he said, of the Enche' Lim Kean Siew: Mr Chair­ Malayan States have not been changed. man, Sir, the late Mr Heah Joo Seang But we must understand that relation­ went to England and asked that Penang 1349 20 AUGUST 1963 1350 be separated as a colony from the rest States of America by approval of the of the Malayan States, and, in fact, Legislature of the State of Hawai. many others in Penang asked for There are other instances in interna­ complete autonomy. Certain autonomy tional law whereby States have either has been given to Singapore including seceded or acceded to other States. financial affairs. Now, when Singapore But the convention generally is that it is introduced into the Malaysian States, must be with consultations. Therefore, it must affect the relationship as when we state that the States of the between Penang and the other States Federation shall be the States of of Malaya. You cannot say that the Malaya, the Borneo States and the relationships are not affected. State of Singapore, it is quite clear that even from the point of view of conven­ Mr Chairman, Sir, the Honourable tion we must consult the people of the Member for Seberang Utara asked if States as represented by their Legisla­ my Honourable friend for Tanjong tures, and as the Member for Kelantan could give examples of constitutional Hilir has said, in the instance of the changes, but I do not understand what State of Kelantan, it must be the Ruler- he means. in-Council and not merely the Ruler. Tuan Haji Ahmad bin Saaid: What The Minister of Interior (Dato' Dr I mean is that whether there is any Ismail): Mr Speaker, Sir, before I democratic form of federation any­ reply to the observation made by the where, where they have got identical Honourable Member, I would like to State laws and identical constitutional make one very important observation, laws. and that is, the habit of members of Mr Chairman: If you do not under­ the Opposition to arrogate to them­ stand, there is no need to reply to him selves the power of the Speaker to at all (Laughter). control the conduct of this House. It is the parliamentary practice that every Enche' Lim Kean Siew: Mr Chair­ member of the House has the right man, Sir, I was going to give him a to express his opinion, and even if you very recent example, the example of disagree with that opinion, and even Hawai which moved into the United if an Honourable Member giggles in States of America as its 50th State. the House, it is for the Speaker to rule So, there is a parallel. But if he is whether he is or he is not out of order going to ask if there is an identical (Applause). It is part of parliamentary constitution with that of the Federation practice that a person has the right to of Malaysia, I have to say "no" because say whether you agree with him or no two persons are identical. I mean not, and we will defend the right of there is no such a federation called as every member of the House to speak. the Federation of Malaysia anywhere else in the world. But certainly under Enche' Lim Kean Siew: On a point the Constitution of the United States of order. Is he discussing this Bill? autonomy is given to the States in many HONOURABLE MEMBERS : What order? matters, including that of education, and that is why it has been very Enche' Lim Kean Siew: Order 36, difficult for the Federal troops to be Mr Speaker. And as for the giggling I used in States such as Alabama and think it was the Minister of Commerce Georgia to build integration except on and Industry himself who giggled, not the excuse that the security and peace us. of the States had been affected. Simi­ Dato' Dr Ismail: So let us be very larly, such provisions are in this Bill, frank on this one: the only person and if the Honourable Member for who can keep order in the House is Seberang Utara was trying to say that the Speaker and let no Honourable that is good, he has only just to look Member of the House try to arrogate at the race riots in America to know to himself that power. how bad it is; and as far as the State As regard the observations made by of Hawai is concerned, the State of the Honourable Members of the Oppo­ Hawai only moved into the United sition, it is quite clear that there are 1351 20 AUGUST 1963 1352

two types of constitution. One is the Internal Security he cannot, I am sure, written one and the other one an distinguish between an exhortation and unwritten one based on convention. We a command, because every word that in the Federation of Malaya have a he speaks is backed up by force, and written Constitution and let us see he is used to it. what the Constitution says in regard to Mr Chairman, Sir, it is quite clear the admission of new States—Article that what I said was that those who 2 of the Constitution. I will read the do not understand the Constitution whole Article— should not speak and confuse the "Parliament may by law— people. I was very clear, and I (a) admit other States to the Federation; maintain this fact. And certainly, Mr (b) alter the boundaries of any State;" Chairman, Sir, I am not trying to Then it goes on to say, arrogate myself into your position, as "but a law altering the boundaries of a in fact the Minister of Internal Security State shall not be passed without the consent was trying to do. of that State (expressed by a law made by the Legislature of that State) and of the Mr Chairman: Can we leave that Conference of Rulers." topic? In other words, Sir, it is stated in the Enche' Lim Kean Siew: But, Mr Constitution that if you want to alter Chairman, Sir, you did not stop him. the boundary of a State, there is a I was quite clear in stating that whether provision there that you cannot do it or not our Constitution allows us to without consultation with the State. deal with new States is another matter. But there is no sucH proviso in regard I was not going to deal with that, and to the admission of other States to the I did not say that the Constitution did Federation, and if it is intended that not make provision for that. But what the State should be consulted when the I said was that my Honourable friend question of the admission of new States for Kelantan Hilir was speaking of arises, then it would have been written another subject; when he asked whether in the Constitution. Ours is a written the Rulers were consulted he meant constitution, and so there is no point the Rulers-in-Council, whereas when in trying to quote from England where the Deputy Prime Minister replied that there is no written constitution and the Rulers had been consulted he meant where it is based on convention. I that the Rulers had been consulted in think it is as simple as that. It is no regard to their own capacity. use saying that you should not speak on the Constitution when you are not Tuan Haji Ahmad bin Saaid: Under a lawyer. A member of this House has Standing Order 40 (1), since there are every right to express his position in no amendments introduced amending regard to this question (Applause) and Clauses 1 to 5, I move that the ques­ I would like to state that it is not the tion be now put. preserve of the learned members of Mr Chairman: I think in a national the House to speak on the) Constitution matter of this nature I should give of this country. It is the right of every every opportunity to discuss the Bill member of this House to speak on fully. the provisions of the Constitution (Applause). Tuan Haji Hasan Adli bin Haji Arshad (Kuala Trengganu Utara): Enche' Lim Kean Siew: Again the Tuan Pengerusi, di-dalam muka 2 Honourable Minister of Internal Secu­ Fasal 4 (2) (b) telah di-sebutkan ia-itu rity has been very heavily influenced negeri2 yang akan di-masokkan dalam by the fact that he controls internal Persekutuan Malaysia itu ia-lah Sabah security. He was quite correct to say dan Sarawak. Sunggoh pun di-dalam that we said that those who do not ayat itu tidak di-sebutkan tentang understand should not speak. It was Brunei, tetapi kita telah mendengar certainly in the nature of an exhorta­ bahawa Perdana Menteri dan Timbalan tion and not in the nature of a Perdana Menteri, Persekutuan Tanah command. But being the Minister of Melayu, ada menyatakan beberapa kali 1353 20 AUGUST 1963 1354

ia-itu Kerajaan maseh berharap dan change" ia-itu menambah sahaja lagi, sangat berharap supaya Brunei masok tetapi manakala kita memakai per- dalam Malaysia ini. kataan Malaysia berbalek-lah ma'ana Malaysia ini kapada London Agree­ Apa yang saya hendak minta pen- ment 8 haribulan July itu. Dan di-sini, jelasan di-sini tentang benar atau tidak- mithal-nya, kita lihat Article 6 dengan nya bahawa satu persetujuan sulit telah sendiri-nya kebebasan kita dalam di-buat di-antara Perdana Menteri, pertahanan jatoh balek terjajah Persekutuan Tanah Melayu, dengan kedudokan Persekutuan Tanah Melayu Perdana Menteri British, ia-itu usaha kita ini. Jadi daripada cheraian2 yang akan di-jalankan juga supaya Brunei di-masokkan lagi bererti sudah lebeh walau bagaimana pun akan di-masok- daripada "fundamental change" kapada kan ka-dalam Malaysia sa-belum 31 berubah dasar. Jadi ini-lah perkara haribulan Disember, 1963 ini? yang berat yang saya hendak penera­ Mr Chairman: Saya tidak nampak ngan yang jelas daripada Yang Ber­ bagaimana perkara yang berkenaan hormat Timbalan Perdana Menteri. dengan Brunei boleh berkait dalam Clauses 1 sampai 5 ini. Enche' Too Joon Hing (Telok Anson): Mr Chairman, Sir, I refer to Dr Burhanuddin bin Mohd. Noor Clause 3 which says that the Constitu­ (Besut): Tuan Pengerusi, saya tertarek tion shall be amended. I have said hati dengan penerangan daripada Yang quite often in this House that the Berhormat Timbalan Perdana Menteri Prime Minister had promised that no tadi yang mengatakan bahawa tidak amendment would be introduced to our ada "fundamental change" dalam Constitution .... perubahan ini. Saya tidak dapat bersetuju dengan keterangan itu. Saya Mr Chairman: We are not debating bacha Fasal 2 dalam Perlembagaan on the principle of the Bill. Standing Persekutuan Tanah Melayu menga­ Order 55 (1) says: takan : "Any Committee to which a Bill is com­ 2 mitted shall not debate the principle of the "(a) menerima Negeri masok ka-dalam Bill but only its details." Negeri Persekutuan; (b) mengubah sempadan2 mana2 jua Negeri; . . . ." We have already debated on the principle of the Bill and I must warn Kalau memasokkan negeri2 Sabah, you that you should not debate on the Sarawak dan Singapura ka-dalam principle—you can only debate on the Persekutuan Tanah Melayu mengikut details of the Bill now. As far as I Fasal 2 ini ada-lah menasabah dan can gather, you are going back to the dapat di-terima, tetapi oleh kerana principle which we have debated for sekarang timbul masaalah memakai the last four days. Fasal 4 dalam Malaysia Bill ini yang mengatakan: Enche' Too Joon Hing: Sir, I am "The Federation shall be known, in Malay referring to Clause 3 of the Bill which and in English, by the name Malaysia." says, "The Constitution shall be amended . . . .". I am opposing this saya tidak dapat terima kerana tidak amendment on the ground that the di-katakan "fundamental change" Prime Minister promised, and the dengan sendiri-nya kedudokan Malay­ Alliance Manifesto pledged in 1959, sia dengan kedudokan Persekutuan to uphold the Constitution. It was on Tanah Melayu ini boleh kita the strength of this pledge that the memandang dan mema'anakan helah people showed confidence in the politik atau pun chara penipuan yang Alliance and returned them to power— meletakkan dudok perubahan dasar and it was also to be taken for granted negara kita. Kerana kalau di-masokkan that the Alliance would not amend the dengan nama Persekutuan Tanah Constitution unless the people were Melayu dalam Perlembagaan ini, maka referred to and a mandate obtained. Sir, dengan sendiri-nya ada-lah mengikut it is on this ground that I oppose Perlembagaan dan tidak "fundamental Clause 3. 1355 20 AUGUST 1963 1356 Tun Haji Abdul Razak: Tuan atau Parlimen berunding dengan Kera­ Pengerusi, saya suka menerangkan jaan Negeri-hanya-lah di-katakan: kapada Ahli2 Yang Berhormat dari "Parliament may by Iaw- Besut dan Bachok. Saya fikir kedua2 (a) admit other States to the Federa­ ~ Ahli Yang Berhormat itu salah faham tion; ...." berkenaan dengan keterangan yang saya 2 Sir. my Honourable colleague, the beri tadi dan juga sa-malam. Pindaan Minister of Internal Security has yang saya sebutkan itu tidak menukar 2 replied to the Honourable Member for kedudokan negeri yang ada dalam Per­ Dato Kramat and I only wish to say sekutuan Tanah Melayu. Akan tetapi, this. It is quite clear, under Article 2 Bill ini tentu-lah ada mendatangkan of the Constitution, that "Parliament perubahan2 yang besar, ia-itu kita may by law admit other States to the ~ hendak memasokkan tiga buah negeri Federation", and there is no requirement yang lain kapada Persekutuan ini, dan under that Article, or under any other Persekutuan ini akan di-tukar kapada Article in the Constitution, that we nama Malaysia. Ini-lah "fundamental should consult individual States before change". Akan tetapi bagi menukar we pass this law. Of course, we have Perlembagaan Persekutuan Tanah 2 to consult the Conference of Rulers on Melayu dan bagi memasokkan negeri matters which affect their prestige, their yang baharu dalam Persekutuan ini position, and other things, but there is kuasa ada-lah dalam tangan Parlimen no requirement for us to consult ini menurut Article 2, yang menga­ individual States. The position is takan: different from what it was before 1948 "Parliament may by law- or before 1957, because we now have (a) a_dmit othe~. States to the Federa­ a Constitution and the provisions of tion; .... our Constitution specify certain powers that lie with the Federal Dan tidak ada di-sebut di-situ yang Parliament, the Central Government, mengatakan Parlimen atau Kerajaan and certain powers that lie with the Persekutuan terpaksa berunding lebeh 2 States. Therefore, on this matter, it is dahulu dengan Kerajaan Negeri. Jadi clearly stated in the Constitution that kedudokan sekarang ini berlainan the power is for Parliament to pass law daripada kedudokan sa-belum tahun to admit the new States-and this 1948 dahulu, ia-itu sa-belum di-adakan Constitution had been agreed to Persekutuan Tanah Melayu. Sekarang previously by all concerned. dalam Perlembagaan ini ada kuasa2 i yang tertentu di-beri kapada Kerajaan Clauses 1 to 5 inclusive ordered to Pusat atau Kerajaan Persekutuan dan stand part of the Bill. Parlimen. Jadi apa kuasa yang ada dalam tangan Parlimen dan Kerajaan Clauses 6 to JO- Persekutuan boleh · jalankan dengan Enche' Lim Kean Siew: Mr Chair­ tidak payah lebeh dahulu berunding man, Sir. Clause 6 provides that Sabah, dengan Kerajaan2 Negeri. Dan bagitu Sarawak and Singapore shall have juga pada tahun 1957 pada masa meng· Governors. I wonder if the Honourable gubal Perlembagaan yang baharu pehak Deputy Prime Minister could tell us Kerajaan kena-lah berunding dengan why it is that Sarawak should have no Majlis Raja2 Melayu, Majlis Raja2 Ruler, because I thought there was a Melayu mengadakan wakil-nya Temmenggong Jugah, or the Paramount berunding bersama dengan Kerajaan Chief of the !bans, who had for many, Persekutuan pada masa itu bagi many years claimed to be at least the menentukan Perlembagaan yang titular head of one of the largest baharu. Itu-lah chara dan peratoran sections of the natives of Sarawak. I yang di-jalankan menurut Perlem­ say "native" not to disparage the bagaan. Yang Berhormat Menteri people there, .but with reference to Dalam Negeri tadi telah menerangkan those as defined in the Constitution as perkara ini, ia-itu tidak ada di-bawah natives. I think, Mr Chairman, Sir, it Article 2 dalam Perlembagaan ber­ would be quite delightful to have a kehendakkan Kerajaan Persekutuan Ruler for Sarawak, and it would 1357 20 AUGUST 1963 1358 certainly add colour to the House Deputy Prime Minister and the during ceremonial occasions. Honourable Prime Minister in that this is necessary because of the The other point I would like to autonomy given to Singapore in l! talk about is in respect of Clause respect of labour and education. Mr 7 (2) and (3). I do not know if the Chairman, Sir, if we were in the confusion is deliberate. or there is an Alliance, we might be persuaded to error. It would appear that the Yang accept that that view is correct; or. if di-Pertuan Agong shall be the Head of we were the supporters of the the Muslim Religion in Malacca, Singapore Prime Minister, we might be Penang and Singapore under this new persuaded to agree. But if we looked Bill; and that it would also appear at the problem from another view­ . .,~ that the intention is to exclude the point, there is no doubt that representa­ position of Islam, thereby, I suppose, tion from Singapore is too weak, and removing the Muslim Offences Enact­ this will definitely affect the whole ments-I would like to state here quite basis of this Bill, because this Bill clearly that I am not discussing the attempts to set up, as it says, a Federa­ pros and cons of this-from the States tion known as Malaysia. If we have 15 of Sabah and Sarawak. If that is so, members from Singapore-which num­ the phrase "as a whole" in the new ber should, in fact, from the point of Clause (7) should be deleted; the new view of population have to be about Clause (7) reads: 34 or 35-we are cutting down their "The function of the Conference of Rulers membership and their power to enact of agreeing or disagreeing to the extension of any religious acts, observances or cere­ laws, their power to change laws, and monies to the Federation as a whole shall their power to represent their people not extend to Sabah or Sarawak, and adequately. Perhaps. the Government accordingly those States shall be treated as might consider that we should rather excluded from the references in Clause (2) of Article 3 and in this Article to the give them proper representation and Federation as a whole." take away their autonomy in those fields. I say so, because, Mr Chairman, Mr Chairman, Sir, the phrase "as a Sir, as I have stated just now in reply whole", I am afraid, is a bit dubious, to the Honourable Member for because it could mean that when the Seberang Utara, where you give Islamic laws apply to the Federation autonomy and you have a different as a whole they should be excluded complex of people-I mean, to be from the Bornean States-perhaps, more blunt, where you have Chinese J that is the intention. But once we have gathered in one force who, in character the argument that "as a whole" must and religious beliefs and customs, are include all States, then the phrase "as different from the Malayan people-it a whole" can be interpreted differently; is quite natural that they would move it would then mean that the Islamic according to their personality and their religious acts, observances and cere­ culture and they would. therefore, monies shall not apply as a whole, but move in a manner which would affect it can apply partially to the Bornean us-like where autonomy has been States. If that is clarified and recorded, given to the American States and there then there would perhaps be no has been segregation and where there problem in the future. I think what is is an attempt to bring about integra­ meant is that these religious acts, tion, Federal forces have had to be observances and ceremonies, which used in order to bring about unity. apply as a whole to the Federation, Now, it is quite possible that by giving shall not apply in toto, to the Bornean way here we think we are doing a States. great service to the Federation of Mr Chairman, Sir, I am afraid that Malaysia but, in fact. we are not Clause 9 of the Bill might cause a lot doing any service to anyone at all. If of disagreement again.~ According to you were to look at it from the future Clause 9 there will be 15 representa­ point of view, there would be trouble­ tives from Singapore. This matter has and the only way to prevent trouble been explained by both the Honourable and to prevent revolution, we all 1359 20 AUGUST 1963 1360 know, is democracy. Why do we have for the Federation of Malaya until the democracy, why do we believe in peoples are equal. democracy? It is because we believe The racial basis is all through the that if a person has adequate represen­ argument of the government. The tation and is allowed to air his views Prime Minister has said "Give me an freely and openly, we would have instance where a big company has got removed his hostility from within more than one in ten employees who himself and his ill-feelings; and on the are Malays." This kind of argument other hand, if we suppress the people, works both ways; because the Govern­ they are bound to explode. So, in ment takes in the Malays as policemen, spite of what the Prime Minister of in the Army-where it is 36 to 1 in Singapore has to say on this matter, favour of the Malays-and into the we cannot agree with him; as people, Government Service, the best qualified who believe that the basic structure of Malays are in the Government Service, all communities is democratic, we Police Force and the Army, and cannot agree to this. Mr Chairman, therefore what is left to the commercial Sir, from our smallest village where world are those people who may not we have the Ketuas Kampong, the have even passed form four. I will Penghulus and the Village Commit­ give an example which applies to tees-even in the Chinese villages myself. I have on many occasions where we have the Village Head asked for a shorthand typist who was and the head of the clan and of qualified in Malay. I have got many the association-right from the very applications from many who have only smallest unit of society-democratic passed form four, and I have asked representation is absolutely necessary several of them-the names of whom to prevent misunderstanding. We might I won't mention, of course-why they think that we have given Sabah and have only passed form four. They say Sarawak a greater number of seats that the Government accepted form because of their distances, as the four and therefore they do not have to Honourable Deputy Prime Minister pass form five. Now in the case of one has said. However, let us hope that applicant, she has now a job in the he is not carried away by his own Government because I told her that the argument, because it is not a question commercial world is highly competi- of whether Sabah and Sarawak has tive." too many, but whether or not Singa­ pore has too few, even if we want to Mr Chairman: Do you have to go give them autonomy in labour and all over that? autonomy in education? Even if we Enche' Lim Kean Siew: I suppose say that we must give them labour and not. But, on the other hand, I suppose education, because the complex of it might enlighten other people, because Singapore is industrial and because the when one says that we must restrict people there are not a people who Singapore's representation and the have to earn their living from agricul­ Malays, who want special rights, can ture, even if we give them autonomy come to Malaya, since there are no in education and labour, is not 15 too special rights given to the Malays in little? The Honourable the Prime Singapore, and that the Malays in Minister said that we give them 15 Malaya must have special rights since seats and there are no special rights they have found little place in the for the Malays, but that if they want commercial field, my argument is that their special rights they can come over the best people are in Government, to the Federation. This defeats the and therefore this disproportion and idea of racial integration. In fact, the this imbalance must continue and will basis of 15 seats may be based on this be exaggerated in future. You see. Mr argument-that Singapore being an Chairman, Sir, this fear of the Chinese industrial complex and having that in Singapore has so influenced our one special race, we must not allow minds that we think 15 members from them politically to control us and that Singapore is sufficient. But I say this there must be special rights retained is another step whereby the Malaysian 1361 20 AUGUST 1963 1362 peoples have been split into sides Sarawak. Yang Berhormat Timbalan and, Mr Chairman, I say in all Perdana Menteri telah menjawab seriousness that, if it does not happen bahawa kerana ugama ada-lah perkara today, in the future when we are dead negeri ini, maka hal ini tidak-lah boleh and gone, there may be race riots and kita lanjutkan ka-sana. there may be revolution and the whole of the Federation will be broken into Sekarang ini, Tuan Pengerusi, saya mushkilkan dalam perkara ini kerana two. It is because we do not like 2 violence, it is because we think that it kedudokan orang Islam di-Sabah dan Sarawak itu hendak-lah di-perhati dan will injure everybody that we feel that 2 15 members from Singapore should be di-samakan dengan kedudokan orang deleted and we should go by the Islam di-Malaysia. Jika tidak, tidak proportion of population. In any event ada-lah ma'ana sa-buah negara yang 34 members from Singapore will not bersatu mempunyai dua, tiga, empat come even to one-third of the repre­ perkara. Saya berfikir hal ini ada-lah sentation in this House, and, therefore, perkara besar. Kata-lah "religious acts" since it does not . . . atau "observances" yang di-putuskan oleh Conference of Rulers, di-sini Mr Chairman: It seems to me that menurut biasa Conference of Rulers you are repeating the same arguments memberi kuasa kapada jawatan-kuasa which you put forward when we were yang tertentu bagi menentukan puasa debating the principle of the Bill. bulan Ramadhan pada sakian hari- bulan, kata-lah, pada 1 haribulan puasa Enche' Lim Kean Siew: Yes, can't di-Malaysia. Kemudian menurut Rang I repeat myself? I did not know that Undang2 ini dalam Bab 7 (3) mengata- I was not supposed to repeat myself to kan hal ini tidak boleh di-lanjutkan stress a point. The Standing Order says ka-Sabah dan Sarawak dan Tuan2 that unless I am irrelevant . . . Sheikh di-Sabah dan Sarawak nampak bulan pada 2 haribulan, nasib baik Mr Chairman: The House has 2 already debated the principle and you kalau kedua wilayah itu nampak brought that point very clearly during bulan sama, tetapi kalau Sarawak the debate on the principle of the Bill. nampak bulan pada 3 haribulan, maka dalam sa-buah negara Malaysia mem­ Enche' Lim Kean Siew: Some of the punya'i puasa tiga hari dan Hari Raya papers never wrote it up, and I think tiga hari berlainan. Itu-lah sebab-nya it should be repeated because even saya kata tidak kena dalam perba- members of the House do not seem to hathan saya ini. Jadi saya minta Yang understand it (Laughter). Anyway, I Berhormat Timbalan Perdana Menteri hope you would bear with me. I am fikirkan perkara ini sa-belum di-lulus- just finishing as a matter of fact. Even kan. if the idea is to prevent the Parliament being swamped by people who do not Enche' K. Karam Singh: Mr Chair­ adhere to the Muslim religion, even if man, Sir, I refer specifically to Clause we have 34 members from Singapore 9 and I will read it over to emphasise they do not come to one-third, and what I want to say. I quote Clause 9: since they do not come to one-third, "(1) The House of Representatives shall they cannot influence amendments. So consist of one hundred and fifty-nine elected what is the purpose of this unnecessary members. restriction to 15 seats? (2) There shall be— (a) one hundred and four members Enche' Zulkiflee bin Muhammad: from the States of Malaya; Tuan Pengerusi di-dalam Bab 7 (3), (b) sixteen members from Sabah; kelmarin saya telah bangkitkan ia-itu (c) twenty-four members from Sarawak; di-dalam-nya di-nyatakan bahawa (d) fifteen members from Singapore." kuasa Majlis Raja2 Melayu di-dalam bersetuju dan tidak bersetuju melanjut Mr Chairman, Sir, I would concentrate atau menjalankan hal yang bersang- on Clause 9 (2) (d) "fifteen members kutan dengan ugama tidak boleh di- from Singapore". Sir, there are two panjangkan sampai ka-Sabah dan ways in which brutality can be effected. 1363 20 AUGUST 1963 1364 One is a direct slaughter of people­ of Singapore into a political desert as a physical slaughter. When that hap­ constituted by Malaysia. Sir, the people pens the whole world rises in uproar, in these territories will still further because they can see it. But when the continue their struggle for freedom and invisible but vital and all important independence within the context of political rights of a people are Malaysia ..... destroyed there is no such uproar, Enche' Abdul Razak bin Raji because it does not strike the eyes of Russin (Lipis): Tuan Pengerusi, on a the people of the world. But this point of order, 55 (1)-Sa-sabuah second destruction of the political rights Jawatan-Kuasa yang telah di-serah­ of a people is far worse than even the kan ...... physical destruction that can be com­ mitted upon a people. Now, the same Mr Chairman: (To Enche' K. Karam Government, which has raised so much Singh) Order! Will you sit down! l·',:z noise on distant issues like Tibet, is Enche' Abdul Razak bin Raji today committing a massacre, a poli­ Russin: Sa-sabuah Jawatan-Kuasa tical massacre, upon the rights of the yang telah di-serahkan kapada-nya satu people of Singapore by diminishing Rang Undang2 tidak boleh membahath­ their representation in the Central kan asas Rang Undang2 itu tetapi Malaysian Parliament, and i't is to hanya butir2-nya sahaja. Pada himat this destruction of their rights that I saya, Tuan Pengerusi, Ahli Yang Ber­ bring the attention of this House and hormat sahabat saya itu berchakap the people of these territories. pada dasar-nya. Mr Chairman, Sir, this is just not an Mr Chairman: Masaalah yang sa­ academic point, because we know that macham ini susah hendak membanding­ for this same right of representation the kan di-antara dasar dengan detail. American colonies went to war against Saya terpaksa-lah membenarkan-nya the British. Their slogan was "No sadikit atas sa-saorang yang hendak taxation without representation". For berchakap itu, atau saya boleh terang­ that a very deadly war was waged by kan supaya dia boleh berchakap dengan the Americans until they finally emerged sa-berapa pendek. as an independent nation. Now, in a somewhat diluted form, that same It is very difficult to differentiate crime is being committed by the between the principle and details here, Alliance Government upon the people but I ask you (To Enche' K. Karam of Singapore by a dimunition of their Singh) to remember Standing Order 55 rights-their rights of representation. (1). We are dealing with the details at It is best for the people of these this stage. We have debated the regions, and for the Government, to principle of the Bill. bear in mind that what the Americans Enche' K. Karam Singh: Mr Chair­ two hundred years ago could not man, Sir, I am concentrating my argu­ tolerate, would the people of Singapore ments on this single line of Clause 9 tolerate today, coupled with the (2) (ti). "fifteen members from Singa­ extreme political awakening that has pore". As I said, Sir, the people of been going on in this part of the world? Singapore will only be led into a politi- . . . cal desert by the Alliance and will .Mr Chairman: It is the same pomt in no way find the fulfilment of their raised by your colleague. national desire for freedom and inde- Enche' K. Karam Singh: Sir, this is pendence. an elaboration; it is not a repetition. Mr Chairman, Sir, the other day the This point is very important. Sir, we Honourable Prime Minister said that can see from this false argument of he could not tolerate an independent making Singapore free through Malay- Singapore, because if Singapore were sia will not deceive anyone because, independent it would, perhaps, establish with the dimunition of their right of relations with communist countries. representation proportionate to their. But, Sir, what fear is there of Singapore • number, it will only lead the people within the Federation having full and 1365 20 AUGUST 1963 1366 appropriate representation? A Singa­ original. (Laughter). Sir, it has been pore within Malaysia is not going to said that the Government of Singapore establish relationsi with any communist will have autonomy in labour and country or countries. It will be within education. I have to state the premise, Malaysia. So, why the denial of their Sir, and now I come to what I want rightful and proportional representa­ to say: an important point that has tion in the Central Parliament? This not been stated: is that the Ministry of shows that it is not communism alone Commerce and Industry will be held which the Prime Minister is claiming by a central Minister, so that will go to fight but the people of Singapore a very long way to reduce this so­ also : he has made them political called autonomy on labour, because enemies and whose rights he is labour always comes under commerce determined to curtail, to curtail very and industry-and that is in the hands drastically. of the Central Malaysian Parliament. l:j Mr Chairman, Sir, there may be some Mr Chairman, Sir, what we can say people who may think, what are these is that, far from getting democracy, 15 seats. what are seats, what do the the people of Singapore are being given seats matter? I must remind the movers a starved and stunted form of of this Malaysia Act that it was their democracy, which will not satisfy their own party which in 1959 was almost aspirations. I will tell the Government blown to bits by this quarrel over this : no one is forcing you to take seats between the UMNO and the the people of Singapore into this M.C.A. Seats are so important that the Federation; but if you want to take Parties, which had proclaimed to the them into this Federation. treat them world that they were united, could be fairly, treat them justly and give them prepared to cut each other's throat their dues. Mr Chairman, Sir, irrespec­ when the question of seats arose-and tive of what race or religion they that did happen in 1959. So, Mr belong to, they are people and they Chairman, Sir, could a denial of seats, cannot be denied their rights as people, a proper number of seats to the people and their sovereign rights of repre­ of Singapore, be agreed to by those sentation cannot be diminished or people who do not belong to the divided or diluted by any argument of governing Parties' membership, when autonomy in one or two matters, when, that same denial of the demand of in fact, their sovereignty has been seats by the major partner, the M.C.A., totally surrendered to the Central at that time was not agreed to? This Malaysian Parliament and the Central denial, in fact, produced an explosion. Government. So, Mr Chairman, Sir, Mr Chairman, Sir, I would ask the the Alliance Government can march in Government not to put on a very smug silence over the rights of the people of look and appear very complacent and Singapore by adopting Clause 9 (2) to treat this matter as of very little (d}-they can march in silence over the importance, because if their own rights of the people in Singapore-but partner could revolt at the critical they must remember that there moment of elections, the people of will be repercussions. Perhaps the Singapore will not forever stomach this repercussions may be postponed, or curtailment, this reduction of their they may be delayed, but one day the democratic right. people of Singapore must, and will Mr Chairman, Sir, there is this assert their democratic rights. That is argument-that the people of Singapore all I have to say, Mr Chairman, Sir. have autonomy in labour . . . . . Sitting suspended at 11.43 a.m. Mr Chairman: I think that has been Sitting resumed at 12.00 p.m. repeated time and time again. (Mr Deputy Speaker in the Chair) Enche' K. Karam Singh: If you will Debate resumed. bear with me, Sir, I will not be Dato' Mohamed Hanifah bin Haji repeating even one old argument. I Abdul Ghani (Pasir Mas Bolo): Tuan have got my own arguments which are Pengerusi, di-dalam Clause 9 (2) (b) • 1367 20 AUGUST 1963 1368 dan (c), ia-itu peruntokan kerusi kapada to base on that concept, then we must dua wilayah itu sa-banyak 40 kerusi- agree on the principle that each parti­ 16 kerusi kapada Sabah dan 24 kerusi cular constituency must be based on kapada Sarawak~walhal jumlah pen­ the numbers with a little allowance for dudok-nya lebeh i kurang 1,100,000. the size of the constituency and other Maka peruntokan yang di-tetapkan such matters. However, here we have dalam Bill ini tidak-lah 'adil kerana a basis of representation which is out terlampau banyak sangat, dan sa-patut­ of proportion to the population-some nya perkiraan di-jalankan saperti yang have over-representation, while others di-lakukan dalam Persekutuan Tanah are under-represented. So, Sir, as a Melayu ini. Kalau di-jalankan di-dalam result of this, we will have a House that dua wilayah itu saperti yang di-jalankan will not actually reflect the opinion of di-dalam negeri ini, wilayah2 itu hanya the nation as a whole. In view of this akan mendapat satu perenam sahaja anomaly, we may find that, in view of jumlah kerusi. Di-sini saya berasa the fact that certain States are being dukachita kerana pemberian pehak under-represented, the view-points of Persekutuan Tanah Melayu kapada dua the States will not be fully expressed wilayah itu terlampau banyak sangat. in this House; and apart from that we Sa-patut-nya hendak-lah mengikut must also appreciate the fact, with our chara pembahagian yang di-lakukan present system of election, that we may di-dalam Persekutuan Tanah Melayu. even have an anomaly in which the Bagitu juga dalam cheraian (d), ia-itu majority in the House may not 15 kerusi di-beri kapada Singapura, represent the majority of the people. walhal Singapura hendak hak otonomi We must appreciate this fact that with di-dalam pelajaran dan buroh. Maka this anomaly and, in addition, if we sa-patut-nya hak otonomi itu di-kaji were to make provision as suggested in sa-mula oleh pehak Kerajaan, kerana the Bill, we may have a position in this saya rasa 15 kerusi yang di-untokkan House, whereby the majority of the itu telah lebeh. Maka itu-lah sebab representatives here do not actually pehak PAS membangkang Bill ini, represent the majority of the people; sebab di-dapati banyak perkara yang and the danger of this in a parliamen­ tidak 'adil bahkan kita menjual hak tary democracy can be very profound. kita kapada wilayah2 itu. We must realise that in States that do not profess parliamentary democracy, Enche' Tan Phock Kin: Mr Chair­ we have read about revolutions for the man, Sir, I rise to speak on Clauses 9 simple reason that the governments do and 10 of the Bill. Clauses 9 and 10 not act in accordance with the wishes deal with representation from member of the people. We have to go no States of the new Federation. Clause 9 further than to see what is happening states specifically the number of repre­ in a neighbouring country, where you sentatives from each State, while Clause have a persecution of the Buddhists 10 goes on to make provisions. with who form quite a big majority of the regard to delimitation of constituencies. people; in view of the fact that the Mr Chairman, Sir, I would like to Government as such is not democrati­ dwell here on the principle of represen­ cally representative of the various view­ tation. As the Honourable Deputy points, or the Government chose to Prime Minister and Members of the ignore the viewpoints of the majority Government bench have pointed out to of the population, you have this state us time and time again that they believe of affairs. I say, Sir, that in the new in parliamentary democracy-and one Federation of Malaysia, unless we take • of the elementary principles of parlia­ cognizance of this fact we may land mentary: democracy is that Parliament ourselves in chaos. must reflect as far as possible the views of the people, and to guarantee that we Sir, Clause 10 of the Bill makes pro­ must see to it that the House of vision for an Election Commission to Representatives must be constituted in go into the question of delimitation of • a manner which is strictly in accordance constituencies in accordance with with this concept. So, if we are going Article 171 of the Constitution : here~ 1369 20 AUGUST 1963 1370 there is a proviso which makes provi­ dalam bulan Ramadhan di-samakan sion for separate reviews under Clause di-seluroh Persekutuan Malaysia ini, (2) for the States of Malaya, and for saya yakin perkara ini dapat di- each of the Borneo States and for the jalankan, dan ta' dapat tiada perkara State of Singapore. Perhaps, the itu akan di-putuskan dalam Majlis Honourable Deputy Prime Minister can Raja2. Sunggoh pun dalam Fasal 7 (3) explain the necessity of separate reviews mengatakan yang keputusan itu tidak for the various territories in the Fede­ mengikut Sabah dan Sarawak, tetapi ration of Malaysia, and whether it was saya perchaya dalam perkara yang being designed to continue this manner saperti ini mereka itu akan bersetuju. of giving internal representation to the Jadi itu-lah dia chara-nya, sebab me- various member States. I hope that the nurut Perlembagaan kita yang ada Honourable Deputy Prime Minister sekarang ini dan kehendak Duli2 Yang will give a full explanation in respect Maha Mulia Raja2 ugama itu hak of these two points raised by me. negeri. Jadi itu-lah sebab Sabah dan Sarawak meminta hal ugama ini di- Enche' Zulkiflee bin Muhammad: tinggalkan hal negeri. Mereka itu me­ Tuan Pengerusi, sa-belum Yang Ber­ nerima ugama Islam di-jadikan Ugama hormat Timbalan Perdana Menteri Rasmi Persekutuan Tanah Melayu, dan menjawab, saya hendak berchakap, dengan sebab itu-lah di-adakan pindaan ia-itu dalam perbahathan tadi saya Fasal 38. telah menyebutkan berkenaan dengan "function of the Conference of Rulers". Sir, a number of Honourable Mem­ Yang memushkilkan saya lebeh ia-lah bers spoke on Clause 9 (2) on the tentang "State List". Di-Borneo saya question of representation. Some say nampak tidak ada satu kenyataan yang that certain States are given too few boleh kita sebutkan bahawa di-dalam representation and others say that some "State List" itu ada perkara yang mem- States are given too much representa­ bolehkan "State List" itu sendiri men- tion. I have explained all this in great jadi kuasa dalam perkara ugama Islam. detail yesterday and I do not think I Jadi itu sahaja saya minta supaya per­ need to go into this matter again. I kara itu di-jelaskan. have said that Singapore is given 15 seats in the House of Representatives, Tun Haji Abdul Razak: Tuan because Singapore has got considerable Pengerusi, saya suka yang pertama sa- local autonomy. Now, Sir, Malaysia, as kali hendak menjawab pandangan Yang well as the Federation of Malaya now, Berhormat dari Bachok. Berkenaan is a Federation. The Central Govern­ dengan Fasal 7 (3) saya telah terangkan ment has certain powers under the sa-malam bahawa kedudokan perkara Constitution. Now, if a State has a large ini ia-lah di-sebabkan hal ugama itu measure of local autonomy, obviously hal negeri dan tidak shak lagi perkara the powers of the Central Government itu sebab dalam State List sekarang over a State are limited to that extent. ini ugama dan 'adat-isti'adat itu hal In view of that, it is only fair that, negeri dan ini akan menjadi hak negeri because Singapore has a greater dalam negeri Sabah dan Sarawak, dan measure of local autonomy than the kedua2 negeri ini menerima ugama other States, the representation for Islam itu di-jadikan ugama rasmi Singapore on the Central Government Persekutuan Tanah Melayu saperti should accordingly be reduced. Now, yang tersebut dalam Artikal 3, di-dalam Sir, the Honourable Member for Tan- Perlembagaan kita. Akan tetapi, me- jong alleges that because of this, the reka itu berkehendakkan keadaan yang representation in the Federal Parliament ada di-Sabah dan Sarawak pada masa does not reflect the views of the people ini kekal tidak di-ubah, dan jika hendak as a whole. di-ubah apa2 hendak-lah di-buat dengan persetujuan mereka itu sendiri. We, here, have accepted, as a matter of principle under the Constitution, Berkenaan dengan chontoh yang di- that in delineating constituencies we do sebutkan oleh Ahli Yang Berhormat not only take into consideration the itu ia-itu umpama-nya haribulan puasa population of a particular constituency 1371 20 AUGUST 1963 1372 but also other matters-weightage, dis­ Federation as a whole"; it is not a tance, size, etc., and, as I have explained question of extending, partly or wholly, yesterday, the Borneo territories-Sabah the religious acts or observances to and Sarawak-because of their large Sabah and Sarawak. This is taken from size and their considerable potentiali­ Article 38 (2) (b) of the Constitution ties and their great distance from the which reads : national capital, from the Central "(b) agreeing or disagreeing to the exten­ Government, it is necessary for us to sion of any religious acts, observances or give them this representation, in order ceremonies to the Federation as a whole," to make up for the disadvantages that This means to the whole of the Fede­ these two territories have. So, as I have ration; and the phrase "as a whole" said, we are a Federation and, naturally, does not qualify the words religious in a Federation as opposed to a unitary acts, observances or ceremonies. State there are other factors to be taken into consideration and the powers Enche' K. Karam Singh: Mr Chair­ of the Central Government are limited man, Sir, there is one clarification under the Constitution. . which I would like to make, and that is this question of autonomy for Sir, as regards Clause 10, it is Singapore in these two subjects. Sir, necessary to have separate reviews of there is autonomy for Singapore in the delimitatiot'l of the constituencies labour and education, but for some under this Clause, because the repre­ time to come, Mr Chairman, Sir, the sentation given to the various units actual position will be that the Federa­ f; is fixed under Clause 9 and this cannot tion will have both autonomy and be changed until 1970, as provided central powers over a vast variety of under the safeguard of the Constitu­ subjects, because of the fact that for tion. That is why for that period it is some time the Alliance Government necessary to have a separate review for will have, at least until the next the various units, because each of the elections, the majority in this House. areas has been allotted a certain num­ So, by that very fact this question of ber of seats-Sabah, it has been autonomy, in the context of the present allotted 16 seats, so that the delimita­ situation in this House, will be that tion of the constituencies in that State the Alliance Government would exercise must be limited to 16 seats; it is the both autonomy and central powers in same with Singapore and Sarawak. Sir, a variety of subjects. Therefore, Mr that is the position. Chairman, Sir, this question of auto­ In regard to the comment made by nomy is really not so clear-cut as it the Honourable Member for Damansara is made out to be-and, in fact, it is about the representation given to Singa­ other than what it is made out to be. pore, I think he made one error in Again, that is apparent from the fact his speech-that is on the question of that Sarawak, Sabah and Singapore commerce and industry. Commerce is together will have 55 seats and the a concurrent matter with Singapore, Federation would have 104 seats­ and it is not true to say that we have almost twice the number the other absolute control of commerce and three States will have. So, in that itself, industry in Singapore, and the Minister Mr Chairman, Sir, this question, of of Commerce and Industry here cannot autonomy and central powers in certain administer matters of commerce and subjects, is wiped out by the fact industry as he can do with the other of the overwhelming representation States in the Federation. Singapore is obtained by the Federation of Malaya­ different in this respect, because com­ and to that extent this question of merce is in the concurrent list. autonomy is qualified and changed. The Honourable Member for Dato Clauses 6 lo JO inclusive ordered to Kramat was not clear in his comment stand part of the Bill. Clause 7 (3) of the Bill in regard to the addition of new Clause (7) to Clauses 11to15: Article 38 of the Constitution. The Wan Mustapha bin Haji Ali (Kelan­ words "as a whole" here means "the tan Hilir): Mr Chairman, Sir, I would 1373 20 AUGUST 1963 1374 like to touch on Clause 14. Jurisdiction country is headed by a non-citizen, and of Federal Court. I am glad that the it has already appeared in the papers Honourable the Deputy Prime Minister that a non-citizen would become the is here, being a lawyer himself, but in Chief Justice of Malaysia. Mr Chair­ this respect what I am worried about man, Sir, if there is a dispute between is that under Clause 14 the Federal the legislative body of a State and Court shall, to the exclusion of any the Central Parliament-perhaps the other court, have jurisdiction to Central Parliament may be more pro­ determine-{a) is quite satisfactory gressive, or perhaps the State Legisla­ because it says- ture may be more progressive-we "any question whether a law made by leave it in the hands of this foreign­ Parliament or by the Legislature of a State dominated judiciary to act as a is invalid on the ground that it makes counter-weight to either Parliament or provision with respect to a matter with respect to which Parliament or, as the case to the State Legislature, and as the may be, the Legislature of the State has not judiciary is constituted today . . . . power to make laws;" The Minister of Finance (Enche' Tan In other words, it is quite easy for Siew Sin): Mr Chairman, Sir, may I the Federal Court to decide whether a rise on a point of explanation. I think law passed by Parliament or by a there is no such thing as Chief Justice State Legislature is invalid because it of Malaysia. has no power to enact such a law. So there is no prejudice or favour there. Enche' K. Karam Singh: Lord But in the case of (b)-because the President. It does not matter what we Honourable the Deputy Prime Minister call him, Sir. Whether it is Chief j knows that justice must not only be Justice, Lord President or something done but also must be seen to be done­ else, it still means that the chief officer when there is any dispute on any of the judiciary will be a non-citizen question between the States, or and I will be glad if the Minister of especially. between the Federation and Finance can deny that a non-citizen any State, even between a State in the will head our judiciary. present Federation of Malaya and the Federation, what then will be the Mr Chairman, Sir, on this-I am position? For instance, if there is a speaking purely on national policy and dispute by Perak against the Federation the interests of this nation-you leave as regards any question, for instance, the decisive power of a casting vote the challenging of this Malaysia Bill, to a non-citizen to decide either against then the case will be heard by the the Centre or against a State. This Federal Court, judges to which are casting vote or decisive factor should appointed under Oause 17 of this Act. not be left in the hands of a non-citizen, As I have said earlier, the appointment because that would be allowing the of judges to the Federal Court, and British Government, indirectly, to even the Chief Justices, is made on the influence the internal judicial process recommendation of the Prime Minister and the internal affairs of our country himself. Well, when there is a big issue and, indirectly, to participate in the or dispute between the States and the politics of our country because a Federation, I am at a loss as to how dispute between a State and the Central the judges, especially when, as I have Legislature would essentially be a said, the Prime Minister has patronage political dispute. So, Mr Chairman, over their appointment, are going to Sir, if the Government is truly desirous decide on it. Perhaps the Deputy Prime of having an independent Malaysia, Minister can enlighten me on that. and not a Malaysia tied to the British, I want the Government in this House Enche' K. Karam Singh: I think to say that a citizen of this country will that the Honourable Member for be the Lord President of Malaysia. Kelantan Hilir has raised a subject Otherwise, it is a slur upon our which it is worthy for the House to citizens-to say that our own citizens, note, because Mr Chairman, Sir, we our own lawyers and our own judges note that today the judiciary of our cannot be the Lord President, or the

------~~------1375 20 AUGUST 1963 1376 Chief Justice of Malaysia. To the extent I think that the Lord President should that the Government does not make it a be a citizen of our country. condition that a citizen must be head of our judiciary, to that extent the Tun Haji Abdul Razak: Mr Chair­ Alliance Government is betraying this man, Sir, in reply to the Honourable country, betraying to the detriment of Member for Kelantan Hilir, I would this country and enabling Britain to like first to explain to him that a dominate our judiciary. dispute on any question between States, or between the Federal Government Enche' Tan Phock Kin: I rise to seek and any State Government, obviously clarification from the Honourable the is a matter of great importance and, I Deputy Prime Minister. Under the think, that such a matter should only be provisions of this Bill, we have three determined by the highest Court in the high Courts-one for each territory. land-that is the Federal Court. There I would like the Honourable Deputy is no question that it should be Prime Minister to enlighten this House determined in any other Court, and whether this arrangement is arrived at that is why Clause 14 excludes any because of judicial necessity, or is it other Court from having any decision because of political necessity. on this matter. Also the Federal Court The other question that I have is consists of three Judges, the Lord covered by Clause 60. So I shall wait President and two Judges, and the Lord until later on to put it to the Minister. President of the Federal Court has no casting vote. Sir, it is here where the Enche' Liu Yoong Peng (Rawang): Honourable Member foll Damansara is I think the question of the Lord Presi­ wrong. I do not know where he gets dent of Malaysia is very important, it from. Being ai lawyer, it is surprising because in the new Federation not only for him to say that the Lord President disputes between citizens will eventually has a casting vote; he has not got a be decided in the Federal Court, casting vote; the three members of the but also disputes between the States Federal Court have equal status. and disputes between the Federation Government, and State Governments Now, Sir. 1 must say that the will be decided there. Therefore, the Honourable Member for Damansara is Lord President of the Federal Court always confused in his thoughts, in is going to be an overlord over some what he wants to say or said. In one matters relating to the Central Govern­ moment he advocates an independent ment as well as the States. For instance, Judiciary and all that, and he criticised in Annex "J" of the Agreement the appointment of judges on the advice between the Governments of the Fede­ of the Prime Minister and all that. ration of Malaya and Singapore on Now, he is questioning the inde­ Common Market and Financial pendence of the Judiciary. I am Arrangements, Section 8, it is stated surprised that he, being a lawyer that- brought up in the tradition of the .. . . . the Lord President of the Federal English law, should have said all these Court, after considering the views of both governments, shall appoint an assessor from things. He should have known that a among persons recommended by the Inter­ judge is a person who has been trained national Bank for Reconstruction and in the law and that before a man can Development as being persons enjoying an be appointed a judge, he had to be a international . reputation in finance. The recommendat10ns of the assessor shall be practising advocate for more than ten binding on both governments. Such reviews years; and although for a time the Lord shall have regard to all relevant factors." President of the Federal Court may be a So, in fact, in the event of financial non-Federal Citizen, at the moment the disputes between the Federation majority of our judges are all Federal Government and the Singapore Govern­ Citizens with the exception of two­ ment, the Governments will have to all the other judges are Malayan citi­ resort to the decision of the Lord zens. President of the Federal Court. There­ The question of a dispute between fore, in the interests of our country, the Central and State Governments is 1377 20 AUGUST 1963 1378 not a political issue, but it is a matter convincing with regard to his answer of law and a question of fact. That to my question. If he had said that the is why it is decided that the matter reasons are political, then I have should be decided or determined by the nothing to say. However, he has said court. If it is a political matter, then that it is political and judicial and I the proper place to decide it is this am afraid I have to take him to task. House. This is a question of law and a The only reason which the Honourable question of fact. The court, as we all Deputy Prime Minister can advocate know it in this country, is independent with regard to the establishment of of the executive and legislative, and separate High Courts is that the Borneo that is why we thought it right and territories is hundreds of miles away. proper that a question of this nature, It must be realised that there are a question of dispute between the countries whose political boundaries Central Government and any State are very much bigger than Malaysia, Government, should be decided by the and yet they do not establish regional Court. High Courts as advocated by the Honourable Deputy Prime Minister. As regards the question of the However, his argument cannot be Honourable Member for Tanjong, we applied to Singapore, which is just a have three High Courts under the Bill. few miles over the Johore Causeway. This, I must admit, is both political I submit here, Sir, that the only con­ and judicial. It is necessary, as you clusion one can reach on this question will appreciate, that the Borneo terri­ of the establishment of three High tories are separated from us by many Courts is that it is purely due to hundreds of miles; there should be a political expediency, because of the separate High Court; and in the case fact that there are already High Courts of Singapore it has its own High Court in existence in Singapore today, and now. So, I think it will be only right there are Chief Justices having already that the present position should be been appointed. So, due to political maintained when these territories join rather than judicial necessity, the Malaysia. establishment of three High Courts Enche' Liu Yoong Peng: Mr Chair­ have been agreed to. I must point out man, Sir, referring to what I said just here, Sir, that this concept of three now, I would like to say that I was High Courts is inconsistent with the not saying that a dispute between a theme which the Government bench State Government and the Federal has been harping all along for a very Government should not be decided in long time—a strong central Govern­ the Federal Court. There is the so- ment; and I submit that this is incon­ called independence of the judiciary; sistent with the concept of a strong and the judiciary can subject its central Government. Besides, Sir, we dispute to an independent court. What must realise that it is deplorable that I am saying is that the Lord President the Government concerned should should be a citizen of the country, resort to measures which are contrary because no matter how much we can to national interests merely for political trust the integrity and the independence expediency. of the judiciary, the question of loyalty Enche' K. Karam Singh: Mr Chair­ is also very important. If we have a man, Sir, I am surprised that the citizen who has the loyalty of this Honourable Deputy Prime Minister is country at heart, then I am sure a fair deliberately trying to misconstrue what decision can be obtained. The judiciary I said. I said that the Federal Court will still be independent;! it will still be dominated by a foreigner would have unbiased; but there is still the added a casting vote—not the individuals of element of loyalty; and that is why I the Court—in a dispute between the think it most important in this matter. Centre and the State; and on his false assumption, he has tried to impute Enche' Tan Phock Kin: Mr Chair­ that I do not know the structure of the man, Sir, I am afraid that the Honour­ judiciary. That is wrong, Mr Chairman, able Deputy Prime Minister is not very Sir. 1379 20 AUGUST 1963 1380

Another point which has arisen Wan Mustapha bin Haji Ali: Mr from the Honourable Deputy Prime Chairman, Sir, I am afraid the Hon­ Minister's speech—and of which I ourable Deputy Prime Minister has not think any Government would be answered my question. According to ashamed—is for him to have stated him, when there is a dispute between that the judges and the Lord Presi­ the State and the Federation, a very dent have to have a number of vital issue, it would be tried by the qualifications: for instance, having Federal Court. Of course, I agree with practised as a lawyer for ten years and that, but my worry was, when I spoke other qualifications. But he failed to just now, how could the Federal Court, mention one very vital fact and that is which consists of a Lord President and whether the Lord President must be a the Judges—since they are appointed citizen. I would ask the Honourable or recommended by the Honourable Deputy Prime Minister to state whether Prime Minister, who is the Head of it is so immaterial to this House and the Central Government—decide the to this country whether the Lord Presi­ dispute between the Federation and the dent is, or is not, a citizen of this State without prejudice or without country. Again, the Honourable De­ impartiality? Of course, the judges try puty Prime Minister was very indignant to be impartial, they are learned in at my trying to overthrow, or at the the law, but when the case is 50:50, supposed attempt on my part to sub­ when the decision is against the vert the independence of the Judiciary. Federation to the advantage of the I would like to tell the Honourable State, what would be the position? Deputy Prime Minister that the inde­ pendence of the judiciary would be As regards Clause 14 (1) (a) it is more secure with one of our own quite easy—that is the case where there citizens as the Lord President than an is a question of whether a law made by Parliament or the legislature of a State alien, or a non-citizen being the Lord is valid. In that respect it is quite easy President, because the independence of for the Federal Court to decide, the judiciary would be compromised to because that is a matter of interpreta­ the extent that the Lord President is tion of the law. But in paragraph (b) not a citizen and there may be outside the question at issue is a dispute influences which may flow to our between any State and the Federation, judiciary by that fact. and when there is a dispute, this dis­ pute will be tried by the Federal Court, Mr Chairman, Sir, there is another which consists of the Lord President point that the Honourable Deputy and various judges, who are appointed Prime Minister has failed to see—he or recommended by the Honourable does not practise and, perhaps, it may Prime Minister himself. Sir, what I was be because of that that he is, therefore, trying to point out was that justice short-sighted regarding the working of cannot be seen to be done. It is not a the judiciary. Sir, what he does not question whether it is tried by the know is that, although there would be Federal Court. It should be tried by three judges in the Federal Court, the the Federal Court, being the highest Lord President is a non-citizen and he court, but the question is, can the would have a very important bearing, dispute be tried by such a court and because the Lord President would have justice seen to be done? immense prestige; in fact, the highest prestige that can attach to the judiciary, Tun Haji Abdul Razak: Mr Chair­ and that cloak of prestige would not man, Sir, we have already debated at be worn by a citizen of this country. length on the question of the appoint­ That fact, Mr Chairman, Sir, would ment of judges. I think we all agreed have immense influence upon the that the appointment of the judges and course of our judiciary and upon the the Lord President for 5 years is the course of the political development of right way of doing it. I must resist, and our country. I would ask the Honour­ I must resent, any attempt by Honour­ able Deputy Prime Minister whether able Members of this House to cast he is aware of this, or is he not. aspersions on the independence of the 1381 20 AUGUST 1963 1382 judiciary, particularly on the independ­ arrangements should as far as possible ence of the judges; I think we have no continue. ground, we have no instance, to say that the judges of our High Court, or Enche' Lim Kean Siew: Mr Chair­ the Lord President of the Federal man, Sir, I think it would have been, Court and the judges, have in any way, perhaps, more direct if the Honourable at any time, shown that they are the Deputy Prime Minister had stated influenced in their decisions. To be fair that this is a political expediency— to them, they have followed the this creation of a Federal Court and highest traditions of the law, and I the maintenance of these three High think it is not right for us here to cast Courts of the various States of Borneo any aspersions on their independence and Malaya. Mr Chairman, Sir, the without any concrete evidence. We point is that when we want to do here have full confidence in the integrity something, we must have reasons for and independence of our judges. They doing it. The Honourable Deputy are men of standing and they have been Prime Minister's argument is that the trained in the tradition of the law, and Government has created something, they have upheld the tradition of the and if the Opposition wants to destroy law. it, they must give their reasons for it. Enche' K. Karam Singh: Mr Chair­ In our arguments here, we are saying man, Sir, Standing Order 36 (1) ... . that there is no proper ground for the creation and the maintenance of three Mr Chairman: He has a right to High Courts and the Federal Court, explain. which include a President, called a Lord. Mr Chairman, Sir, the arguments Enche' K. Karam Singh: I did not given by the Deputy Prime Minister cast any aspersions on anyone. I only for the maintenance of three High wanted that the Lord President should Courts is, firstly, the distances involved. be a citizen. The Honourable Deputy How far is Singapore from Johore Prime Minister is being irrelevant, Bahru? 11/2 miles. Is that a distance? because I did not cast any aspersions. In that case we can say Penang is farther from the mainland than Singa­ Tun Haji Abdul Razak: The pore is (Laughter), Therefore, there Honourable Member did say, Sir, that should be a High Court in Penang. he considered the present Lord Presi­ That kind of argument is an insult to dent of the High Court is less indepen­ our intelligence. His second argument dent than if he were a citizen of this is that we are a Federation and not a country, and I think to that extent he unitary State, and because we are a did cast aspersion on the person of the Federation, we should have three High Lord President of the High Court. Courts. In that case, because we are a Sir, I only want to add one small Federation we should have 14 High point in reply to the Honourable Courts, because there are 14 States: Member for Tanjong. It is true, as he one High Court for Kedah, one High said, that this idea of having three Court for Penang, one High Court for High Courts in the various territories Pahang, one High Court for the King's is both political and judicial. But we former State, Perlis, one High Court have these three High Courts, particu­ for Selangor, etc., and then one High larly in the Borneo territories because Court for Sabah and another High of their distance from our national Court for Sarawak, because certainly capital. It must also be remembered Sarawak is farther from Sabah than that we are a Federation, and it is very Singapore is from Malaya. So these unusual in any Federation to have a two arguments that we must have three unitary court, and to some extent we High Courts because of the distance have got to respect the wishes of the and because we are a Federation, are people of these territories which have spurious. In fact, they are patently their own courts and which are now in invalid arguments. Cannot the Deputy existence, particularly in Singapore. I Prime Minister find some better reasons think it is only right that the present to give us? (Laughter). 1383 20 AUGUST 1963 1384

Mr Chairman, Sir, I certainly cannot What we are stating is the constitu­ say that anybody has or has not been tional principle. Should or should not partial in our High Courts. How can the Lord President of the Federal I? After all, to err is human and the Court be a Federal Citizen? That is Privy Council has upset about five our question. Did the Deputy Prime decisions from our Court of Appeal in Minister answer that question? Is there the Federation in the last one year. I no person in Malaya who is a Federal do not know what that means. Does Citizen who can be Lord President of that mean that there is no impartiality, the Federal Court? The present or does that mean that there is incom­ Minister of Transport is qualified petency? Whatever it is, decisions judicially (Laughter). He has completed from our Court of Appeal have been 10 years practice. He can be the Lord upset in the Privy Council. As it is, it President. Why not? Or are you trying is true that one cannot talk of to say that he is not competent enough. partiality. At the same time, it is as difficult to say that there is no The Minister of Transport (Dato' impartiality, as it is to say that there Sardon bin Haji Jubir): Mr Chairman, is impartiality. It is difficult to prove on a point of clarification, I have no impartiality. What the Honourable intention of becoming the Lord Member for Damansara says is this: President. that the Federal Court is going to Enche' Lim Kean Siew: I am glad decide matters of the Constitution and at the humility of the Minister, but the Federal Court is going to decide then for the sake of the national constitutional affairs as between the interest, I am sure he would not refuse State and the Federal Governments and (Laughter). Well, Mr Chairman, now I by right it should be a Federal Citizen come to a more serious problem, and who should be the Lord President. that is the question of precedents. We Are we going to say that our Federal have the example of India—of the Citizens are not competent enough to High Courts of Madras, Calcutta and be the Lord President of the Federal the various States of India having Court? Are we trying to state that concurrent jurisdiction and therefore according to the Constitution the their decisions are of equal binding person who is going to be the Chairman force to other courts of inferior of our Federal Court need not be a jurisdiction. If we have three High Federal Citizen and that Federal Courts in Borneo, Singapore and Citizenship is irrelevant to this matter? Malaya, then the decisions of the High Imagine as the Lord Chief Justice of Courts of Singapore and Borneo will England a Frenchman or an Indian or have as much effect and will accord a Negro. Would the people of England equal precedents as the decisions of the stand it? Imagine the President of the High Court of Malaya. We have, for Supreme Court of America being a example, at the moment conflicting Malayan, for example, like the views with regard to what is causing Malayan Ambassador to the United death by a rash act. According to the Nations, the Minister without Portfolio, decision of the former Chief Justice, who is at the moment sitting in the Murray Aynsley, in the Singapore High lobby having his coffee. Would the Court, any negligent act which causes Americans stand it? That is a consti­ death is thereby a rash act. Many tutional question. Now for the Honour­ people in Singapore have been con­ able Deputy Prime Minister to say victed for causing the death of people that because we say that, we are with a motor vehicle when it has been therefore insulting our present Chief found that they have been guilty to Justice of Malaya is to deliberately some degree of negligence which is cause confusion by putting into this criminal. In Malaya the line of argument personal considerations and authority is entirely different. In order emotionalism. We are not interested in to have a person convicted of causing the person of the Chief Justice of death by a rash act, his negligence Malaya at the moment. We are not must be of such a rash nature as to be interested in individual personalities. tantamount to the negligence required 1385 20 AUGUST 1963 1386 by manslaughter in England. In other Sitting resumed at 4.30 p.m. words, the person must drive and be negligent to such an extent that it can (Mr Speaker in the Chair) be said that he did not care whether or not he would kill a person by his EXEMPTED BUSINESS negligence and that he was completely (Motion) reckless and he was grossly negligent in his negligence and that he drove Tun Haji Abdul Razak: Mr Speaker, with such negligence that he knew well Sir, I beg to move, that he would probably kill and he did That notwithstanding the provisions of kill that person with that negligence. Standing Order 12, the House shall not adjourn this day until after the Malaysia Bill Now when you have a clause of equal shall have received its Third Reading. jurisdiction, then the courts will find it very difficult as to which decision Dato' Dr Ismail: Sir, I beg to second to follow. If under this Bill we have a the motion. High Court in Singapore within the Federation of Malaysia and we have Question put, and agreed to. also a High Court in Malaya, then we Resolved, can use the decisions of Singapore in That notwithstanding the provisions of Malaya, and in fact argue against those Standing Order 12, the House shall not decisions by the decisions of the adjourn this day until after the Malaysia Bill Malayan High Court. In that case shall have received its Third Reading. there would be contradiction which will put us in the same position as the THE MALAYSIA BILL Indian Courts. It is wellknown among Committee the practitioners and amongst the judges that the Indian decisions are more than House immediately resolved itself into useless because of this fact. One can a Committee of the whole House. quote a decision from Madras and Bill considered in Committee. counter-quote another decision from Calcutta and so contradict. Is it not Clauses 16-20— better therefore to have one High Court Wan Mustapha bin Haji Ali: Mr with Judges belonging to this one High Chairman, Sir, I am speaking in respect Court? The only point here in the of Clause 16 on the constitution of the creation of the three High Courts is in High Courts. Sub-clause (2) states: fact to have three Chief Justices. That "Any person qualified for appointment as means two more than necessary. Surely a judge of a High Court may sit as a judge one Chief Justice for the whole of the of that court, if designated for the purpose Federation is enough. We can't even (as occasion requires) in accordance with compare ourselves to one Indian State Article 122B." because one Indian State may even be In other words Sir, normally he must twice as big as the Federation of be a citizen. Then we have Clause 19, Malaysia put together in numbers of paragraph (b) of which says: population and in the complexities "for the ten years preceding his appoint­ of its problems. To have three High ment he has been an advocate"— Courts, means to have two more Chief Justices and then when we invite them In other words he is an advocate and to state functions the question of who solicitor who is in practice for the is to sit next to the Prime Minister last ten years; then he can be appointed becomes difficult. as a judge of a High Court, provided he is also a citizen. But, Sir, sub­ Mr Chairman: Order, order, the time clause (3) of Clause 16 says: is up. "For the despatch of business of the High Court in Borneo in an area in which a judge Enche' Lim Kean Siew: I stop here, of the court is not for the time being avail­ Sir. able to attend to business of the court, the Clauses 11 to 15 inclusive ordered to Yang di-Pertuan Agong acting on the advice of the Lord President of the Federal Court, stand part of the Bill. or for an area in either State the Governor Sitting suspended at 1 p.m. of the State acting on the advice of the 1387 20 AUGUST 1963 1388

Chief Justice of the court, may by order a judicial commissioner exercising the appoint to be judicial commissioner in that area for such period or for such purposes duty of a judge, as may be specified in the order an advocate or person professionally qualified to be Tun Haji Abdul Razak: Mr Chair­ admitted an advocate of the court." man, Sir, this is only a special arrangement necessary for the Borneo My submission is this: why should territories. As Honourable Members a judical commissioner be appointed know, the Borneo territories are so where there is no time qualification? extensive and there are only a few Mr Chairman, Sir, it will be noted judges and not many magistrates. that in the appointment of a judicial Therefore, in case of an emergency, commissioner, the Yang di-Pertuan when judges are not available, because Agong or the Governor of a State, there are only a couple of judges for again acting on the advice of the Chief the whole of Sarawak and North Justice, or Lord President, as the case Borneo, it is necessary to appoint some­ may be, can appoint any person as one to do the work as judicial commis­ long as he is an advocate or a person sioner; further a judicial commissioner professionally qualified. In other words, has got limited functions to perform a lawyer who has been in practice for really. I can assure the Honourable the last one month can be appointed Member that this is only in case where as a judicial commissioner having the a judge is not available that the same status of the judge of a High Yang di-Pertuan Agong may appoint Court. Let us take the case, for someone to be a judicial commis­ instance, of a State Secretary: he has sioner—not a judge. never practised law; he is a pro­ fessionally qualified person; he may be Clauses 16 to 20 inclusive ordered to a State Secretary for ten years doing stand part of the Bill. administrative work; he may be quali­ Clauses 21 to 25 inclusive ordered to fied, but he is not in practice; he is stand part of the Bill. out of touch; and yet he can be appointed as a judicial commissioner. Clauses 26-30— Enche' V. Veerappen (Seberang Enche' Lim Kean Siew: As the Selatan): Mr Chairman, Sir, I am at a Minister of Transport. loss to understand why Clauses 21 to Wan Mustapha bin Haji Ali: The 25 should have been taken at a stretch, Minister of Transport was in practice. because from Clause 23 onwards the Sir, what I am saying is that a person subject matter is different—according who is qualified—a professional to the title, it is "Citizenship". I would lawyer—might not have been in prac­ like to know what arrangement the tice and has been in the administrative Clerk to the House has as regards the service for the last thirty years, and reading out of the clauses. he might be in his retiring age, and Mr Chairman: The procedure is laid such a person can be appointed a down in the Standing Orders. judicial commissioner. Under this sub­ clause (3) of Clause 16, there is no Enche' V. Veerappen: I should have qualification as required by Clause 19— thought that it would be much better and in Clause 19 it seems that where if we go by subjects, titles, or chapters. an advocate and solicitor has been in practice for ten years, he cannot be Mr Chairman: There is no such order appointed unless he is a citizen. at all. The Clerk can take any clause According to Clause 16 (3), as long as or a group of clauses according to the .he is an advocate, as long as he has Standing Orders. It is up to you to be the professional qualification, whether careful so that you get up to speak on he is a citizen or not, he can be consi­ the clause or clauses that I propose. We dered for appointment. I say that it is are now on Clauses 26 to 30. a very high responsibility to give to Enche' V. Veerappen: Mr Chairman, such a person, and it is quite dangerous Sir, the residential qualification for to appoint a person of this type to be persons to become citizens 1389 20 AUGUST 1963 1390 Mr Chairman: Under what Clause Clause 27 (1) is Citizenship by is that? Naturalisation—and I think that Clause Enche' V. Veerappen: Clause 26 and is very clear. It deals here with citizen­ all of those Clauses which require ship by naturalisation for citizens of residential qualification. I would like Singapore who also will become to have clarification from the Honour­ Malaysian citizens by virtue of being able Deputy Prime Minister as to Singapore citizens and also those who whether, in the case of persons who want to become Malaysian citizens have resided in Singapore and who direct. have applied for federal citizenship, Now, Sir, for the benefit of the their period of residence in Singapore Honourable Member, I better read could not be taken as period of resi­ Clause 27 very slowly and carefully. It dence in the Federation, as Singapore says : is already a part of the Federation. "Subject to Clauses (7) and (9), the Federal Also this applies very badly in the case Government may, upon application made by of a woman who marries a federal any person of or over the age of twenty-one citizen who is not a Singapore citizen. years who is not a citizen, grant a certificate As all persons in the Federation are of naturalisation to that person if satisfied— federal citizens, whether they are (a) that— (i) he has resided in the Federation Singapore citizens or not, the period outside Singapore for the required of a two-year residential qualification periods ...."; is very unkind, because a woman, who has resided in Singapore for any length and if you read Clause 27 (3), it says : of time, if she should marry a federal "The periods of residence in the Federation or the relevant part of it which are req ed citizen who is not a Singapore citizen, for the grant of a certificate of naturalisation then I should say the period of resi­ are periods which amount in the aggregate to dence in Singapore should be taken as not less than ten years in the twelve years qualifying; if not, she will have to immediately preceding the date of the application for the certificate, and which reside for two years more before she include the twelve months immediately could apply for citizenship. I think that preceding that date."; is very unfair. and this Clause 27 (1) (a) (ii) says: The other point, Mr Chairman, Sir, "he has resided in Singapore for the is the question of Singapore citizens in required periods and intends, if the certificate the Federation. We have, Singapore is granted, to do so permanently," citizens who up to now have been This refers to those who want to aliens in this country, and they acquire citizenship of Singapore. have to carry red identity cards. What I would like to know—and this is in Now, let us refer to Clause 27 (4). the minds of thousands of people— is, It says: whether these people after Malaysia "For the purposes of Clauses (1) and (2) Day, when they become federal citizens, residence before Malaysia- Day in the territories comprised in the Borneo States would they be still carrying red cards, shall be treated as residence in the Federation or would they be carrying blue cards outside Singapore; "— just like citizens of this country? that is for naturalisation for direct Dato' Dr Ismail: Sir, the Honourable Malaysian citizens— Member for Seberang Selatan spoke on " . . . . and for purposes of Clause (2)"— Clause 26, that is Citizenship by (which is in regard to citizenship of Singa­ Registration. Now, in Clause 26, it is pore)— definitely stated that it is designed —"residence before Malaysia Day in Singa­ solely for those who reside in the pore shall be treated as residence in the Borneo territories. As I have mentioned Federation." in my speech in reply to the Honour­ Now, as regards the registration of able Member on the question of identity cards, it is not mentioned here citizenship, this can be treated as a that we want to alter, but I think we provisional clause which will lapse will extend the type of registration when this kind of citizens have all cards we have to the Borneo territories acquired their citizenship. and Singapore. 1391 20 AUGUST 1963 1392

Enche' Lim Kean Siew: Mr Chair­ person of or over the age of twenty-one years who is not a citizen, grant a certificate man, Sir, perhaps the Honourable of naturalisation to that person if satisfied— Minister of Internal Security would be so kind as to explain to this House, (a) (b) ,....; and why there should be Clause 26 (d). (c) that he has an adequate knowledge of Clause 26 (d) deals with the case of the Malay language." a person who makes application for registration as a citizen before 1971— It appears that Clause 27 (2) makes it and it says: conditional that a person must know "except where the application is made Malay and only Malay, and even if he before September, 1965, and the applicant knows English he is not qualified. has attained the age of forty-five years at the Will the Honourable Minister of date of the application, that he has a suffi­ cient knowledge of the Malay language or Internal Security explain why this the English language or, in the case of an Clause is necessary and what are the applicant ordinarily resident in Sarawak, the special circumstances which the Malay language, the English language or any Government will think fit to issue native language in current use in Sarawak." certificates under this clause? Now, obviously here two points have to be noted. Firstly, what happens after The Honourable the Deputy Prime 1971? Will the language qualification Minister said the other day that a be necessary. Secondly, why is a person Singapore citizen is not under double ordinarily resident in Sarawak, able to jeopardy and need not obtain approval obtain citizenship if he knows the of both the Singapore and the Federal Malay or English language or any na­ Governments. Could he explain what tive language in current use in Sarawak is the meaning of Clause 27 (7) at (which we all know comes up to more page 16. This sub-clause says— than 15) and yet when it comes to "A certificate of naturalisation as a Singa­ Sabah it requires a sufficient knowledge pore citizen shall not be granted without the of the English language or the Malay concurrence of the government of Singapore." language only? So, obviously, when it This would appear to me to mean that comes to Sabah the knowledge of a Singapore citizenship can be granted by native language is no qualification and the Federation Government and that is not necessary. Supposing at the the citizenship cannot be granted with­ moment there are about 245,000 out the concurrence of the Government Kadazans—to which Donald Stephens of Singapore. The word "concurrence" claims he belongs—and supposing a means "two" in this instance and there­ North Bornean Kadazan (or a Dusun) fore surely it would mean that unless applies to become a federal citizen and the Singapore Government agrees the he does not know Malay or the English Federation Government cannot issue language, what then? It would appear such a naturalisation certificate. It here that, if he does not know English would also mean, as a corollary, that or the Malay language and knows only even though the Singapore Government Kadazan, he would not be able to may agree to grant such a certificate, obtain his citizenship papers. Now, the Federation Government may not there is another case of the Chinese agree to it. It would appear by this people brought up amongst the clause obviously that a Singapore Kadazans who can only speak Kadazan citizen can obtain his citizenship either and Chinese, in that instance they through the Federation Government or would apparently be disqualified. But through the Singapore Government, when it comes to Sarawak, then any and if he wishes to obtain it through native language in current use in the Federation Government, the Sarawak is a sufficient qualification. Government must obtain the agreement The next question I would like the of the Singapore Government. What I Honourable Minister of Internal think has not been clarified sufficiently Security to explain is sub-clause (2) of is that (if we may refer back to a clause Clause 27 which says: which has in fact been passed, i.e., Clause 23 (3)) "Citizenship of Singapore ". . . . in such special circumstances as it thinks fit, upon application made by any shall not be severable from citizenship 1393 20 AUGUST 1963 1394 of the Federation, but a Singapore will come under his control. I ask him citizen by the loss of either shall whether this two-year qualification lose the other also . . .". So, therefore, should not be waived in the case of a even if a person obtains his citizenship woman from Singapore whom our papers under Clause 27—and in that Federal citizen from, say, Johore case he could either be a Federal citi­ marries. I think this requirement is too zen or a Singapore citizen—cancellation unkind to a woman who marries a by the Singapore Government of his Federal citizen. Since Singapore be­ citizenship papers would automatically comes part of the Federation, I think cancel his citizenship obtained from the it is fair to make that request, and I Federation Government. The opposite hope the Government will consider it. is also true; if the Federation Govern­ ment cancels his citizenship, he then Dato' Dr Ismail: As regards the loses his Singapore citizenship. There­ date September, 1971 mentioned by the fore, by Clause 23 (3) and Clause 27 (7) Honourable Member, as I have said, a Singapore citizen can—and I empha­ Clause 26 is to be temporary. So it is sise can—be placed in double jeo­ hoped that by September, 1971 that pardy. He can obtain his citizenship clause will lapse. Then he mentioned from both the Singapore and the the matter of Clause 27 (2) ". . . . The Federation Governments, but when he Federal Government may, in such obtains it from the Federation Govern­ special circumstances as it thinks fit, . . ment, he must get the concurrence of grant a certificate of naturalisation . .". the Singapore Government, and if it is By the way, when I introduce this cancelled he will lose his Singapore question of citizenship I am the Minis­ citizenship also. Surely then unless a ter of the Interior. Sir, as the Honour­ good reason is forthcoming, this is a able Member knows, the question of prejudice which the Singapore citizens naturalisation is a discretion on the must suffer from. part of the Government; it is not mandatory. So we have got to consider Enche' V. Veerappen: On a point of the type of person he is before we clarification, are we on Clause 28 also? decide whether we want to give him a certificate of naturalisation or not. Mr Chairman: Yes. Enche' V. Veerappen: On a point Enche' V. Veerappen: Clause 28 (2) of clarification. says: "In relation to Singapore citizens Articles 15 and 15A shall apply to Dato' Dr Ismail: I am replying to entitle or allow them to be enrolled as your colleague, not to you. citizens who are not Singapore citizens, in the same way as those Articles Mr Chairman: He is replying to the apply . . . .". Now Article 15 of our Honourable Member for Dato Kramat, Constitution says— not to you. "Any woman who is married to a citizen Dato' Dr Ismail: Now let me go is entitled, upon making application to the back to the question of Clause 27 (7). Federal Government, to be registered as a citizen if she satisfies the Federal Govern­ Sir, all certificates of naturalisation will ment— be given by the Central Government, (a) that she has resided continuously in the but in the case of Singapore if we want Federation for a period of not less than to issue a certificate of naturalisation two years immediately preceding the date of the application." we shall not give it without the con­ currence of the Singapore Government. I was pointing out this to the Minister, As I said in my speech in reply to the but he did not give any explanation to Honourable Member in the general that just now. The point is that any debate there is no such thing that if woman who marries a citizen has to you apply for Singapore citizenship wait for two years before she can apply that you must have the concurrence of for her citizenship even though she may the Federation Government; similarly, be of good character, which the in the case of the Federal citizenship, Minister of Internal Security should be an applicant need not have the con­ able to know since internal security currence of the Singapore Government 1395 20 AUGUST 1963 1396

before we can issue him with a Malay­ Dato' Dr Ismail: Sir, the Honour­ sian citizenship. But in this case, if the able Member for Tanjong must be hard Federation Government is going to of hearing. I have said that Clause 26, issue a certificate of naturalisation, Citizenship by Registration, is transi­ naturally it must have the concurrence tional or temporary, but I never did say of the Singapore Government because that Clause 28 is transitional or tempo­ we are issuing Singapore citizenship. rary, and I made it clear, when replying to Honourable Members, that Govern­ As regards the query raised by the ment's concept of Malaysia in regard other Member of the Socialist Front to Singapore is that Singapore would about waiving the period of two years like to have its own citizenship in addi­ for Singapore women, I think we do tion to Malaysian citizenship. Of course, not consider that necessary because if you try to argue this one from even if we look at it from the point of the Honourable Member's concept of matrimonial relationship, from Johore Malaysia, then it will look ridiculous, to Singapore it is only 17 miles and if but from the Government's concept of she decides to stay with her husband Malaysia, this is not ridiculous, because she could stay there for two years and it is in accordance with the desire of get the benefit of the clause. But if she the people of Singapore. decides for the husband to visit her occasionally, she can stay in Singa­ Enche' Tan Phock Kin: Mr Chair­ pore. There is no hardship about it at man, Sir, it appears to be that the all. The distance is so short, and the Honourable Minister of the Interior pleasure of the hunting lies in the is rather inconsistent with the general chase (Laughter). view-point, or the general statement of Enche' Tan Phock Kin: Mr Chair­ policy, as enunciated by Ministers of man, Sir, on this question of citizen­ the Government from time to time. It ship, I would like to seek clarification has been stated that it is the desire to from the Minister of the Interior with build one nation with one citizenship regard to one feature of this Constitu­ and with one national language. So, I tion, that is to say the clear distinction must point out that this is inconsistent between citizens as such and citizens with that very concept of nation build­ who are Singapore citizens. It appears ing. It is all very well to say that we to me that the Minister has been stress­ must have a Singapore citizenship, ing all along the desire for unity and because of the fact that the people of that if there is any Singapore want a citizenship of their own—but that is quite beside the point: Dato' Dr Ismail: May I know what we are arguing on the objective of the clause the Honourable Member is Government. I am not saying that the referring to? Government should agree to our objec­ tive, but this is an objective enunciated Enche' Tan Phock Kin: Clause 28— by the Alliance—they are going to build Transfer of citizenship to or from one nation with one national language. Singapore. It appears to me that there It appears that this is inconsistent . . . is no provision whatsoever to eliminate this feature in the Constitution in course Mr Chairman: We have debated on of time. This will remain a permanent the principle of the Bill a whole day feature. We will have two types of citi­ and now you are coming back to the zens—a citizen and a citizen who is a principle. Singapore citizen. No assurance has been given to us that this is only a Enche' Lim Kean Siew: Mr Chair­ temporary feature and that in course of man, Sir, surely the question of citizen­ time this will disappear. In the light of ship is very important. If we have not this, I would like the Minister of the understood the Minister of the Interior Interior to kindly explain to this properly, it may not be due to bad House as to how this will be consistent hearing but due to bad enunciation. with the objective of the Alliance It is quite clear Mr Chairman, Sir, Government. that a Singapore citizen cannot become 1397 20 AUGUST 1963 1398 a Federal citizen unless there is a con­ Article 19 of the Malayan Constitu­ currence of the wishes of both tion reads as follows: Governments. "Subject to Article 21, the Federal Govern­ ment may, upon application made by any Dato' Dr Ismail: No. person of or over the age of twenty-one years, grant a certificate of naturalisation to Enche' Lim Kean Siew: Even then, that person if satisfied— it would appear that before a person (a) that he has resided in the Federation can become a Federal citizen, he has to during the twelve years preceding the date of the application, for periods lose his Singapore citizenship. I believe amounting in the aggregate to not less I am correct. That seems to be the tenet than ten years;" of the clauses of this Bill. It would appear that if a person wishes to trans­ Clause 28 (3) reads as follows: fer himself, then he can only transfer "(3) A citizen enrolled as being or not himself under Clause 28. What would being a Singapore citizen by virtue of this Article or by virtue of any corresponding be the practical effect of such a request provision in the Constitution of the State of for transfer? Perhaps, the Minister of Singapore shall be or not be a Singapore the Interior can tell us. citizen accordingly from the day on which he is so enrolled." Enche' V. Veerappen: Mr Chairman, Sir, as a further clarification, I would By putting these clauses together, like to know from the Minister as to it would appear that a person cannot why we should have two types of citi­ become a Singapore citizen unless he zenship. Pardon me, Sir, if I proceed permanently wishes to reside in Singa­ with this, although there has been quite pore, because all our conditions on a lot of argument going on. We have naturalisation require that a person been given to understand that this is must have resided for a certain number because of the special position of Singa­ of years either in the Federation or in pore. We also know that in the Federa­ Singapore, and then he must have inten­ tion we have nine State nationals: you ded to remain there permanently before have the Selangor State national, the he can become a citizen. So, the effect Perak State national, and so on—and it of Clause 28 (3) would be that a looks as if people in Penang and Singapore citizen can only become a Malacca, like myself, have no State Singapore citizen when he has declared nationality; and may be we belong to his intention to live there permanently. the Queen of England (Laughter); and Therefore, as soon as he declares that, the same differentiation could be made he cannot then shift over to the Federa­ in the case of Singapore. Why was this tion and stay there for, say, 10 years, citizenship introduced? Was it to con­ and then abandon his Singapore citizen­ fuse the people and to make a Federal ship and say that, "I wish to apply for citizen worse than he is, or to make a Federal citizenship because I have now Singapore citizen better than he is, or resided 10 years in the Federation", was it just for political convenience? because it can then be argued that since How can we bring difficulties to the he is a Singapore citizen he must be people just for the political convenience deemed to have intended to reside in of a few? Singapore, and, therefore, very strict proof will be required before he can Enche' Lim Kean Siew: Mr Chair­ satisfy the Government that he has man, Sir, Clause 28 (1) reads very abandoned his Singapore residence. clearly as follows: That is the first point. The second point "The Federal Government may, upon is this: if I do not like the Singapore application made by any Singapore citizen Government and I am a Singapore of or over the age of twenty-one years, enrol citizen and I decide to become a him as a citizen who is not a Singapore Federation citizen, I must then, in spite citizen, if the Federal Government is satisfied that, had his application been for the grant of the fact that I might have been born under Article 19 of a certificate of naturalisa­ in Singapore and I might have been tion as a citizen who is not a Singapore resident in Singapore for the last forty citizen, the conditions of paragraphs (a) (i), years, I would, in spite of that, have to (b) and (c) of Clause (1) of that Article for the grant of the certificate would be fulfilled." come to the Federation, stay here for 1399 20 AUGUST 1963 1400 ten years continuously, before I can Chairman, Sir, if this Government were apply for a Federation citizenship, sincere, then we would have a crystal­ which means that for ten years I would clear declaration of the rights of citizen­ have no political rights in the Federa­ ship, but what we have here, as I have tion whatsoever. Surely, this coupled pointed out, is really very muddy water with the fact that the Singapore citizen­ and it is very difficult to make anything ship is put under double jeopardy of of it. What emerges from these clauses, the two Governments, requiring in some Mr Chairman, Sir, is that Singapore is cases their concurrent approval, would being treated like a political untouch­ mean that the Singapore citizen is able ..... doomed for life to be a Singapore citi­ Mr Chairman: Order ! order! We zen thus to be put at the mercy of are not debating any more on the the Singapore Government. principle of the Bill. We are now debat­ ing Clauses 26 to 30. Will you confine Enche' Tan Phock Kin: Mr Chair­ your observations to those, and do not man, Sir, I seek further clarification on repeat the points which have already Clause 28 (1), and this pertains strictly been dealt with by your colleagues. to the question of a Singapore citizen wanting to be a citizen who is not a Enche' K. Karam Singh: Mr Chair­ Singapore citizen. It is understandable man, Sir, I do not think I have to be that prior to the establishment of reminded not to debate on the principle Malaysia, we may think in terms of of the Bill, because I am speaking on loyalty to the Federation and loyalty Clause 26, Sir. to Singapore. But, with the establish­ Mr Chairman: All right, please ment of Malaysia, there is no question proceed. of allegiance, except allegiance to His Enche' K. Karam Singh: Mr Chair­ Majesty the Yang di-Pertuan Agong man, Sir, the Federation Government and allegiance to the Federation of is treating Singapore like a political Malaysia. In other words, residence untouchable; otherwise, why should we whether in the Federation of Malaya, or in Clause 26 have this very sinister in Singapore, or in the Bornean territo­ enactment. I read, Mr Chairman, Sir: ries, irrespective of where it is, should be "26. Subject to Article 18, any person of considered as residence in the Federa­ or over the age of eighteen years who is on tion of Malaysia. I see no reason whatso­ Malaysia Day ordinarily resident in a Borneo ever why differentiation should be made State is entitled, upon making application to with regard to residence in Singapore, the Federal Government before September, 1971, to be registered as a citizen if he or residence in the Federation outside satisfies the Federal Government- Singapore. Once you have that distinc­ (a) that he has resided before Malaysia tion, it makes the whole Federation of Day in the territories comprised in Malaysia a farce. People will not think those States and after Malaysia Day, in terms of loyalty to the Malaysian in the Federation outside Singapore . . ' Federation. If you do not treat people Why should there be this distinction? alike, naturally, they have every good If we are creating one country and one reason to feel disloyal, and I submit State, why should there be this differ­ here that this particular clause in eli­ entiation of residence in a particular minating, or in differentiating, residence part? Why should Singapore be in Singapore is a very retrogressive step. separated? My submission is that we We are undoing our efforts to build a have failed to create a single country or common nationality with this particular a single State by making this differentia­ clause, and I hope that the Honourable tion between Singapore and the Federa­ the Minister concerned can give an tion and the Bornean territories-by explanation to this matter. making this differentiation we have failed to create a single country or a Enche' K. Karam Singh: Mr Chair­ single State. man, Sir, I should say that the few Further, this condition of residence clauses we are going over now are the for qualifying for citizenship will fail muddiest (Laughter) in the whole Bill­ in the creation of a single nation. We and they are the most unclear. Mr will have a multiple nation made up of

---~~ 1401 20 AUGUST 1963 1402 various types of citizenships. So, Mr their concept of Malaysia. However, Chairman, Sir, as I have said, it would there is one point where they would be wise for the Government to with­ really like to be enlightened, and I have draw these rather muddy provisions much pleasure in enlightening them­ (Laughter) and make a single citizen­ that is, whether a citizen of Singapore, ship provision for all the peoples of who is also a Malaysian citizen, can these territories so that we can create­ become a direct Malaysian citizen. if we have the intention of creating-a They can do that in two ways-it is so single country and a single united elementary my dear Watson-one is by people. a transfer of citizenship under Clause Enche' Lim Kean Siew: Mr Chair­ 28 (1), in which case he has to comply man, Sir, it is good to laugh at my with the conditions of paragraph Honourable friend when he is talking, (a) (i), and I read para. (a) (i) "that he but Clause 27 ( 4) makes the muddy has resided in the Federation other than water even muddier. Sub-clause (4) of Singapore for the required period". Clause 27 says, Enche' Lim Kean Siew: Other than "For the purposes of Clauses (1) and (2) Singapore-that is exactly my point. residence before Malaysia Day in the terri­ tories comprised in the Borneo States shall be treated as residence in the Federation Dato' Dr Ismail: Let me finish, Sir. outside Singapore; ...." Mr Chairman: No interruption, Now, it is obvious that this part please. regards it as residence outside of Singa­ pore, if a person has been residing in Dato' Dr Ismail: Paragraphs (a) (i), those territories before Malaysia Day. (b) and (c) of Clause (1), he must fulfil And, the second part of this sub­ all those things and he also must fulfil clause goes on to say: the required period of residence in the Federation outside Singapore. That is, " . . . and for purposes of Clause (2) residence before Malaysia Day in Singapore he can acquire it by transfer. But he shall be treated as residence in the Federa­ can also acquire it by naturalisation­ tion." that is under Clause 27 (2). You asked This makes it very clear that after me just now about "in such special Malaysia Day no residence in Singapore circumstances". I was answering you in will be counted as residence outside of bits and pieces because I know you Singapore. But why this distinction? would keep on talking. Now I will give Why not just say that- you the answer in full. "In such special circumstances" refers to Clause 27 (4) "For the purposes of application of citizen­ ship, where a person has given up his which reads "and for purposes of Singapore citizenship residence in Singapore Clause (2) residence before Malaysia shall be counted as residence in the Federa­ Day in Singapore shall be treated as tion, and, provided a person does not intend to go back to Singapore and no longer residence in the Federation." So if a intends to reside permanently in Singapore Singapore citizen wants to become a and has decided to reside permanently in the direct Malaysian citizen by naturalisa­ Federation outside of Singapore, he shall be tion the period that he resided in entitled to citizenship of·the Federation." Singapore can be counted as period of Why should it be that where a person residence in the Federation. I hope I has been a Singapore citizen, which make myself quite clear on that point. according to Clause 23 is not severable If not, I can repeat and try to make from the citizenship of the Federation, it more simple for the Honourable be disqualified from applying for Member by using clearer language. But Federation citizenship and his residence I hope he understands what I say about in Singapore be considered as if it is the two methods: by transfer and by residence in a foreign country? naturalisation. And for the purposes of naturalisation, periods of residence in Dato' Dr Ismail: The provisions of Singapore can be counted as periods of this Bill on citizenship are only muddy residence in the Federation. But in the to the members of the Socialist Front case of transfer you must reside in the who try to argue them on the basis of Federation outside Singapore. 1403 20 AUGUST 1963 1404 Enche' Lim Kean Siew: He might stances as it thinks fit, upon application made by any person of or over the age of have used the words of Connon Doyle, twenty-one years who is not a citizen, grant but I am afraid that he did not use his a certificate of naturalisation to that person logic (Laughter). What he has tried to if satisfied- explain to this House is exactly the (a) that he has resided in the Federation problems I have raised. Section 27 for the required periods and intends, 1 (a) says that the· Federation Govern­ if the certificate is granted, to do so ment may give a certificate of naturali­ permanently;" sation to any person when he has That means 10 years out of 12 years resided in the Federation outside of again. Clause (4) of section 27 says­ Singapore for the required periods, and "for the purposes of Clauses (1) and Article 19 requires that the residence (2) . . . . residence before Malaysia required for Federal citizenship is 10 Day in Singapore shall be treated as years out of 12 years. Therefore, he residence in the Federation." I quite must come and stay here for 10 years. understand that. My question is, what Dato' Dr bmail: No, he stays in happens for residence after Malaysia Singapore. Day, not before Malaysia Day? I know that before Malaysia Day resi­ Enche' Lim Kean Siew: Section 27 dence in Singapore is counted. Before (1) (a) says "that he has resided in the Malaysia Day is pronounced, the people Federation outside Singapore". I did in Singapore who want Federation cer­ not realise that . . . . tificates had better come across the Causeway on a bicycle quickly before Dato' Dr Ismail: Will the Honour­ able Member please read Clause 27 12 o'clock strikes .... Provided they (4): "and for purposes of Clause (2) can do that they will be safe because residence . . . . in Singapore shall be as soon as they reach the shores of the treated as residence in the Federation". Federation at the strike of 12 they It is quite clear enough. can then ask the Federation Govern­ ment to take into consideration their Enche' Lim Kean Siew: Para. (a) (i) residence in Singapore, but the poor of Clause 27 (I) says "outside Singa­ unfortunate person who has had a tyre pore". Now outside does not mean puncture and who had to push his cycle inside (Laughter) and if the Honourable reaches Malaya after the strike of 12 Minister of the Interior is trying to can no longer have his residence in argue that Clause (4) makes it in any Singapore counted for Federation citi­ way different, may I enlighten him and zenship. That is my pofot (Interruption). read it again. Clause (4) reads- Mr Chairman: Have you finished? "For the purposes of Clauses (1) and (2) residence before Malaysia Day in the terri­ tories comprised in the Borneo States shall Enche' Lim Kean Siew: No. But the be treated as residence in the Federation point is that any period of residence outside Singapore; and for purposes of after Malaysia Day in Singapore cannot, Clause (2) residence before Malaysia Day in I emphasise, cannot be counted as resi­ Singapore shall be treated as residence in the Federation." dence in the Federation. We are not arguing on the question of transfer. I Clause 27 (1) (a) deals with residence am arguing on Clause 27 (4). Let us in the Federation outside Singapore­ deal with that first. residence in the Bornean States for example. So Clause (I) does not apply Dato' Dr Ismail: Mr Chairman, Sir, to this section. What applies is Clause I will speak clearly and very slowly. (2). For the purposes of Clause (2) Clause 27 deals with citizenship by residence before Malaysia Day in naturalisation. Clause 27 (1) is a nor­ Singapore shall be treated as residence mal thing that an applicant must do in the Federation, not after Malaysia before he can qualify for naturalisation. Day. Now, Clause (2) says, In other words, if he wants to become a direct Malaysian citizen, this is what "Subject to Clause (9),-which means a person must swear oath of allegiance to he must do: he has resided in the the Federation Government-the Federal Federation outside Singapore for the Government may, in such special circum- required period-that is not less than

._ 1405 20 AUGUST 1963 1406 ~ ten years out of 12 years; then if he citizenship. If we do not say that the wants to become a citizen of Singapore, period of residence in Singapore should he must reside in Singapore for a period be counted, then those eight years will • of ten years out of 12. So there are not be counted. We want to be fair to two types there: Clause 27 (1) refers to all people. In some cases, for example, an applicant who wants to be natura­ if a person has resided in fohore eight lised either as a direct Malaysian years before Malaysia Day, and then citizen, or he wants to become a he needs to have only two years before Singapore citizen. If he wants to he can be naturalised. Therefore, if we become a Malaysian citizen, he must do not say "the p~riod before Malaysia reside ten years out of 12 in the Federa­ Day" should be counted, then he will tion outside Singapore; and if he wants lose those eight years. I think I have to become a Singapore citizen, then he made it clear now. must reside in Singapore ten years out of twelve. Enche' Lim Kean Siew: Am I there­ fore correct if I understand that as Clause 27 (2) is a special case, where regards sub-paragraph (i) of Clause 27 it is at the discretion of the Govern­ is as explained by me? Does the Hon­ ment if it likes to do so. In other words, ourable Minister of the Interior agree we can give to this class of people a with me? naturalisation certificate without his having to reside in the Federation out­ Dato' Dr Ismail: Yes, that is correct. side Singapore. His period of residence Enche' Lim Kean Siew: That is in Singapore too can be counted-that what I said. (Laughter). means that the Government can give that concession as a special case. As regards Clause 27 (2), residence before Malaysia Day is counted but Enche' Lim Kean Siew: Before not after Malaysia Day-after Malaysia Day? Malaysia Day is the answer "Yes" or "No"? (No Answer). Dato' Dr Ismail: Before Malaysia Day is another factor. Now, what do I now come to my third point, which we want to do before Malaysia Day? is application for transfer. Under It a person, who has resided in Clause 28 (1) a person can apply for Singapore, if he wants to become a transfer: it says here,- citizen, we must count that period too...... any Singapore citizen of or over If we do not say "residence before the age of twenty-one years, enrol him as a Malaysia Day" then that period will citizen who is not a Singapore citizen, if the Federal Government is satisfied that, had his not be counted. So, after Malaysia application been for the grant under Article Day if he wants to become a Singapore 19 of a certificate of naturalisation as a citizen he must reside there ten years citizen who is not a Singapore citizen, the out of twelve. "Before Malaysia Day" is conditions of paragraphs (a) (i), (b) and (c) of Clause (I) of that Article for the grant just to allow those people who reside of the certificate would be fulfilled." in Singapore to qualify that period for the period of qualification as a citizen As regards the question of the trans­ of Singapore; and the same thing fer of citizenship from Singapore to the applies for those who want to acquire Federation of Malaya, it is subject to .. Malaysian citizenship. The period of a residential qualification of ten years residence anywhere outside Singapore out of 12 years in the Federation of before Malaysia Day can be counted. Malaya. Therefore, if I am correct in To give an example, let us take the case all these three points, the Singapore of a person in Singapore. That person citizen suffers a jeopardy. I am sugges­ resides in Singapore before Malaysia ting that it would make more sense if Day-say, he has resided there for sub-clause (4) of Clause 27 could be eight years-and on Malaysia Day he changed, and instead of saying that the has resided in Singapore for eight years; period cannot be counted, it would be so, he needs only to qualify for two better to say that periods of residence years to get ten out of 12 years in in any of the Federation States can be Singapore to qualify for Singapore taken as residence in the Federation for 1407 20 AUGUST 1963 1408 the purpose of application for citizen­ itu kita akan laksanakan kerja-nya ship, so that a person, who stays in macham yang kita ada sekarang ini Singapore, if he wishes, can apply to juga. Kita akan adakan Board. Tetapi become a Federal citizen. As it is, if kalau Ahli Yang Berhormat itu ingat he is a Singapore citizen and if he ia-itu dalam Perlembagaan Persekutuan applies to become a Federation citizen, Tanah Melayu dahulu kita katakan he must start all over again as if he was "elementary" atau pun mengetahui a "freshy", except that the period of bahasa Melayu yang rendah. Itu bagi residence before Malaysia in Singapore orang yang registration; itu sudah di- can be counted. That is why I say this tarek balek. Sekarang tinggal "by is unfair and I hope that I have made naturalisation" yang kita katakan myself very clear. mesti ada "adequate knowledge" atau mengetahui chukup bahasa Melayu itu Enche' Zulkiflee bin Muhammad: akan di-tentukan oleh Board yang akan Tuan Pengerusi, saya tidak hendak di-lantek mentafsirkan sama ada memudahkan citizenship di-Singapura orang yang meminta kera'ayatan itu ini. Yang menjadi soal kapada saya ia- 2 mengetahui chukup bahasa Melayu lah di-antara sharat (qualifications) atau tidak. bagi rnembolehkan orang mendapat naturalisation ini ia-lah "he has an Clauses 26 to 30 ordered to stand adequate knowledge of the Malay part of the Bill. language". Kita tahu bahawa Singapura Clauses 31 to 35— itu ada-lah sa-buah pulau yang penoh dengan orang yang tidak berapa tahu Enche' Lim Kean Siew: Mr Chair­ bahasa Melayu. Saya hendak tahu man, Sir, I just want to ask the daripada Yang Berhormat Menteri Honourable Minister of Interior to Dalam Negeri bagaimana-kah yang explain Clause 30 (6). Clause 30 (6) sa-benar-nya standard yang di-tetapkan reads— bagi memberi ta'rif kapada "adequate "(6) Without prejudice to the foregoing knowledge of the Malay language", Clauses, where on Malaysia Day . . . ." sebab di-dalam hal ini amat mustahak Mr Chairman: Order, order, Clause kita terangkan dalam Dewan ini supaya 30 already stands part of the Bill. Now kita tahu dan dengan yang demikian we are dealing with Clauses 31 to 35. ra'ayat yang akan datang ini tidak-lah membanjiri negeri ini dengan tidak di- Enche' Lim Kean Siew: Oh! I see. ketahui oleh kita kadar-nya? Kapada Enche' K. Karam Singh: Mr Chair­ Persekutuan Tanah Melayu ada-lah man, Sir, the people of Singapore have rengan sadikit, sebab ramai orang di- for long feared that for them this sini yang tahu bahasa Melayu. Tetapi Malaysia would still mean their being dengan dasar multi-lingualism yang confined to Singapore and not being ada di-Singapura itu kalau tidak di- able to share in a common political life awasi, maka dengan sendiri-nya kera'a- with the people of the Federation. Mr yatan ini akan jadi kera'ayatan yang Chairman, Sir, now the fears of the terlalu mudah, sebab saya tahu sa- Singapore people in their crystallised tengah orang chakap di-pereksa fact: form would take on the language of "ini tangan, ini anak tangan." Jangan- Clause 31. To understand its implica­ lah sampai berlaku di-dalam untok tion more clearly, I would like to read, mengetahui "adequate knowledge" itu with your permission, Sir, Clause 31. I kita mempermudahkan. Dan ada-kah quote: "adequate knowledge" ini relative atau "31. (1) Notwithstanding anything in Arti­ bersangkut orang itu dengan kerja-nya cle 47, a Singapore citizen is not qualified to atau "adequate knowledge" ada stan­ be an elected member of either House of dard khas atau pun Kementerian ini Parliament except as a member for or from belum menentukan sa-suatu dan akan Singapore; and a citizen who is not a Singapore citizen is not qualified to be a di-tentukan kemudian? member of either House for or from Dato' Dr Ismail: Tuan Pengerusi, Singapore. (2) A Singapore citizen shall not be quali­ berkenaan dengan soal "adequate fied to be an elected member of the Legis­ knowledge of the Malay language" lative Assembly of any State other than 1409 20 AUGUST 1963 1410

Singapore, and a citizen who is not a still the limits of Singapore. The Singapore citizen shall not be qualified to be boundaries of Singapore have not been a member of the Legislative Assembly of Singapore. enlarged to the boundaries of Malaysia. (3) Notwithstanding anything in Article That is all I have to say, Mr Chair­ 119, a citizen is not entitled to vote in a man, Sir. I have to point out that this constituency in any election to the House of clause is not a gift to the people of Representatives or a Legislative Assembly Singapore, but a legislative sore in the if— Constitution of Malaysia. (a) the constituency is not in the State of Singapore and he is on the qualifying date (as defined in that Article) a Enche' Lim Kean Siew: Mr Chair­ Singapore citizen; or man, Sir, could the Honourable (b) if the constituency is in the State of Minister of the Interior explain Clause Singapore and he is not on that date 33 (1) for insertion of a Clause (3) to a Singapore citizen." Article 25. The new clause reads as follows: Mr Chairman, Sir, these sub-clauses of "(3) A person who on Merdeka Day Clause 31 clearly show to us that the became a citizen by operation of law as political activity in standing for election having been a citizen of the Federation and voting for the people of Singapore immediately before that day shall not be is localised to Singapore, and no deprived of citizenship under Clause (1) or (2) of Article 24 by reason of anything done Federation citizen can go to Singapore on or before that day; but in the case of and stand for election there to the any such person Clause (2) of Article 25 central Legislature. So, we ask, where shall apply equally in relation to a period is there a common State created for the of residence in foreign countries beginning people of Singapore and the people of before Merdeka Day and in relation to such the Federation? This Clause 31, Mr a period beginning on or after that day." Chairman, Sir, only strengthens the Now, Mr Chairman, Sir, if we read separation at the Causeway between the Clause 30 (6) which I referred to just Federation and Singapore, and in no now, it would appear that even if a way bridges the narrow strip of water person is a citizen by operation of law, which nature has placed between he may be deprived of his citizenship. Singapore and us. Mr Chairman, Sir, Mr Chairman, Sir, the ways by which this separation in the name of union, we can obtain our citizenship is: and in the name of merger, is actually firstly, if we were a British subject on a very flagrant act of hypocrisy. Mr Merdeka Day; secondly, if we were Chairman, Sir, this Clause 31 clearly born on or after Merdeka in the reveals to us and to the world at large Federation of Malaya. Clause 30 (7) that Singapore is not being merged with and this Clause 33 (1)—with this new the Federation, and a single State is not Clause (3)—seem to give the Govern­ being created, and a single people is ment power to deprive a person who is not being created, on the other hand, by operation of law a citizen. Normally the old division .... a person is a citizen by operation of Mr Chairman: Order, order, I have law who is not a person naturalised. warned you time and again. We have We would like the Honourable Minister already debated the principle of this of the Interior to tell us how the opera­ Bill for four days, and this very point tion of this clause is to be limited, so on which you now speak has been that the people who have a birthright raised during the debate on the prin­ to be a citizen of this country shall not ciple and was replied to by the Govern­ be affected. ment. About three or four hours have Enche' Tan Phock Kin: Mr Chair­ been taken up on that very point man, Sir, I would also like to seek alone—I still remember. Will you go clarification on Clause 33 (1) whereby into the details of this Bill rather than a provision is made to deprive the the principle, because we have already citizenship of a person, who is a debated the principle. citizen by operation of law, because Enche' K. Karam Singh: So, Mr of his absence from the Federation of Chairman, Sir, the political limits of the Malaya before Merdeka Day and—this rights of the people of Singapore are is very important—"before Merdeka 1411 20 AUGUST 1963 1412

Day" is more or less an unlimited law as enumerated in Article 14 of the concept. It is from the day he was born Constitution. until Merdeka, and during that period it would be unreasonable for the Now Clause 33 (1) says— Government to expect that a person "A person who on Merdeka Day became who is a citizen by operation of law to a citizen by operation of law as having been a citizen of the Federation immediately register annually at a Malayan Consulate before that day shall not be deprived of his intention to retain his citizenship. citizenship under Clause (1) or (2) of Article This may be reasonable after Merdeka, 24 by reason of anything done on or before but before Merdeka, is it reasonable that day;". to expect persons, who are students in Now I shall read Clauses (1) and (2) a territory where there is no Malayan of Article 24: Consulate or Malayan Representative, "(1) If the Federal Government is satisfied to register themselves, because of the that any citizen has at any time after fact that they have been away for Merdeka Day acquired by registration, more than five years and that because naturalisation or other voluntary and formal they have not registered themselves, act (other than marriage) the citizenship of any country outside the Federation, the we are going to deprive them of their Federal Government may by order deprive citizenship? This, I submit, Sir, is a that person of his citizenship. very unreasonable step for the Govern­ (2) If the Federal Government is satisfied ment to take. I believe that there are that any citizen has at any time after many loyal Malayan citizens by opera­ Merdeka Day voluntarily claimed and exer­ tion of law, who will be an asset to cised in a foreign country any rights available to him under the law of that country, being this country being deprived of their rights accorded exclusively to its citizens, the citizenships, because they happen to be Federal Government may by order deprive studying overseas for more than five that person of his citizenship." years without registering themselves with a Malayan Consulate or a To continue with Clause 33 (1), Malayan Embassy—and it must be " . . . . but in the case of any such pointed out that during the time when person Clause (2) of Article 25 shall they were studying there was no such apply". Now, Clause (2) of Article 25 thing as a Malayan Consulate in exis­ reads— tence in the country where they were "(2) The Federal Government may by studying. In the light of this explana­ order deprive of his citizenship any person who is a citizen by registration under Article tion, I feel that the Honourable Minis­ 17 or a citizen by naturalisation if satisfied ter concerned will take very serious that he has been ordinarily resident in consideration of this particular case foreign countries for a continuous period of five years (whether beginning before, on or and, I hope, that he will consider after Merdeka Day) . . . ." whether it would be reasonable or otherwise to delete this particular pro­ To continue with Clause 33 (1), vision from the Bill. " . . . . Clause (2) of Article 25 shall Dato' Dr Ismail: I need not reply apply equally in relating to a period of to the observation made by the residence in foreign countries begin­ Honourable Member for Damansara, ning before Merdeka Day and in because he chose to speak on the relation to such a period beginning on principle of the Bill when we are dis­ or after that day." I think it is quite cussing the details. It is suffice for me clear if you read it in conjunction with to say that what he calls inequalities the present Constitution. are really corresponding rights enjoyed by Singapore citizens and Malaysian Enche' Lim Kean Siew: He does not citizens. deal with our point. Our question is, is it reasonable? Secondly, I think my As regards the observations made by Honourable friend from Tanjong wanted the Honourable Member for Dato to know whether after Malaysia Day Kramat, I would like to tell him— this clause would apply to Singapore first of all to the general observation— citizens. Since Singapore citizens did that there are various kinds of people not come under our Constitution, they acquiring citizenship by operation of did not need to have to register at a 1413 20 AUGUST 1963 1414 Malayan Consulate, and since on Malay­ factor or condition does he envisage sia Day they may have been absent which will arise which will create a for more than five years without situation of grave emergency that is registering at a Malayan Consulate, not created by war or external aggres­ they would automatically by this section sion or internal disturbance? Does it lose their citizenship unless the Minis­ mean a superimposed disturbance from ter will put it on record that these the heavens or subterraneanly? I do people will not be affected by this not know, since this clause excludes clause. Otherwise a large proportion of internal disturbance, external aggres­ Singapore citizens may lose their sion and war. citizenship through no fault of their Tun Haji Abdul Razak: Mr Chair­ own since they were not required before man, Sir, I explained yesterday—I think Malaysia Day to register themselves the Honourable Member was not in annually at a Malayan Consulate. the House when I explained—that Dato' Dr Ismail: I will give an under modern conditions we might have assurance that I will not cause any a situation where the security and the injustice. economic life of the country will be threatened and where a grave emergency Enche' Lim Kean Siew: I cannot exists even though there may not be hear you. actual war, external aggression or Mr Speaker: He said that no in­ internal disturbance. Honourable Mem­ justice will be done. bers are familiar with the words "cold war". And we may have confrontation Enche' Lim Kean Siew: Thank you. and all that sort of things which endan­ ger the economic life of the country. Clauses 31 to 35 inclusive ordered to Under those conditions the Government stand part of the Bill. must be able to govern the country, Clauses 36 to 40— and under those conditions it will be necessary for an emergency to be Enche' Lim Kean Siew: I would like declared as the Government must have to ask a very simple question now to the necessary powers to govern the the Minister of Internal Security. country. I think that is clear, Sir. Clause 39 (1) removes certain words Under modern conditions, I say again, from Article 150 of our present Consti­ we may have a situation where the tution. Mr Chairman, Sir, to make it security of the country and the econo­ clear I would read Article 150 as it mic life of the country is threatened now stands— and we may have to proclaim an "If the Yang di-Pertuan Agong is satisfied emergency without an overt form of that a grave emergency exists whereby the external aggression or war or even security or economic life of the Federation internal disturbance. or of any part thereof is threatened, whether by war or external aggression or internal disturbance, he may issue a Proclamation of Enche' Lim Kean Siew: Is the Emergency." learned Deputy Prime Minister saying that the cold war is a matter of grave Mr Chairman, Sir, the words emergency, or that confrontation has "whether by war or external aggression so far created a situation of grave or by internal disturbance" are now to emergency, because if that is so, then be deleted. So it would now read— it would appear that as soon as any "If the Yang di-Pertuan Agong is satisfied situation is threatened, even if any that a grave emergency exists whereby the political party's power is threatened in security or economic life of the Federation or of any part thereof is threatened, he may any area, an emergency could be issue a Proclamation of Emergency." declared. Perhaps the Deputy Prime Minister can explain it. Could the Minister of Internal Secu­ rity tell us why has it been found Tun Haji Abdul Razak: It is very necessary to remove the words "whether difficult to visualise a real situation, by war or external aggression or by but we may have a situation as a result internal disturbance"? What other of confrontation or cold war. We may 1415 20 AUGUST 1963 1416

be surrounded and there may be a Enche' Lim Kean Siew: Mr Chair­ blockade and we will not be able to man, Sir, if we take this amendment get our supply of food and so on even alone, and in isolation of any other though no actual war has been declared. provision of the Constitution, we can I think if there is a situation like that accept that due to inability, or error, or in the country with serious economic inefficiency, our constitution writers troubles, then in such a situation we have slipped in that clause by error, have to declare an emergency. This is and it should now be removed. If, the sort of situation in which the however, we do not accept that that is Government considers it necessary that the position (that this clause was put the Government should have the neces­ in due to error, or inefficiency, or sary powers to govern the country, inability) then we must ask ourselves because the Government is responsible if the situation in Malaya has changed for the safety and welfare of the people so materially as to require that this and the country. clause should now be removed. Enche' Tan Phock Kin: I am afraid Mr Chairman, Sir, if we were to the explanation is far from convincing. examine the other clauses, we would If the Honourable the Deputy Prime find that, in fact, the constitutional Minister is correct that a position position has materially been changed— arises in which food cannot be obtained, and it has been changed because States surely under such circumstances the have come into our Federation with country will come under internal dis­ restrictions; and, under the normal turbances. Somebody must be creating event, certain things, or certain acts, some trouble to sabotage the transport affecting the other States, cannot be system, so much so that food cannot passed without concurrently getting the be obtained and shops cannot be approval of the other States. Sir, the opened. effect of a proclamation of emergency It appears to me, Sir, that this parti­ gives the Federal Government complete cular amendment is put in not so much power to move in spite of the fact that from any actual concern, but as a there is agreement, in spite of the fact guise to get more powers, and we must that we need to have the concurrence see here that in this provision the of the State Governments concerned. Government is asking for absolute Clause 39, sub-clause (2), of the Bill powers to do things which in no demo­ reads: cracy would anybody expect a govern­ "(2) x x x x ment to do. We are asked in this '(5) Subject to Clause (6A), while a Proclamation of Emergency is in force, particular provision in the Bill to give Parliament may, notwithstanding any­ the Government absolute powers to act thing in this Constitution, make laws in whatever way it thinks fit. Those with respect to any matter, if it appears powers may be abused, and one can to Parliament that the law is required by reason of the emergency; and just imagine that, in a country like Article 79 shall not apply to a Bill for ourselves should such powers be such a law or an amendment to such abused, it will bring an end to parlia­ a Bill, nor shall any provision of this mentary democracy, because we feel Constitution or of any written law which requires any consent or con­ that there is no good reason whatsoever currence to the passing of a law or why this particular provision should any consultation with respect thereto, come into being. The clause as it now or which restricts the coming into stands in the Constitution with the force of a law after it is passed or the presentation of a Bill to the Yang provision "whether by war or external di-Pertuan Agong for his assent.'" aggression or by internal disturbance" covers everything that we can think of; It is clear that as soon as a proclama­ and the move of the Government to tion is declared, the Government can eliminate all those conditions indicates move without consultation, or without very clearly that what the Government consent, or without concurrence of the is trying to do is to have absolute State Government concerned. Therefore, powers, perhaps to suppress their poli­ I argue that this would destroy all the tical opponents. rights reserved, or any right reserved 1417 20 AUGUST 1963 1418 for the various States under this cons­ ment. This brings me back to the state­ titutional agreement. ment by the Honourable the Minister of Finance the other day when he Now, Mr Chairman, Sir, Clause (6), denied that the Agreement with the as proposed here (Clause 39 of the Bill) Singapore Government is no more than makes my observation clear, because the pangs of birth suffered by a woman Clause (6) says: in distress. His argument is that with "(6) Subject to Clause (6A) no provision the pangs of birth will come the joy of any ordinance promulgated under this Article, and no provision of any Act of of babyhood and motherhood. I am Parliament which is passed while a Proclama­ afraid that these may be the false pangs tion of Emergency is in force and which of labour and the baby may still take a declares that the law appears to Parliament long time to come. (Laughter). And so, to be required by reason of the emergency, shall be invalid on the ground of inconsistency perhaps, the Honourable Minister of with any provision of this Constitution." Internal Security will answer directly whether or not this will be used—that Sir, Clause (6) makes it clear that is to say the powers of proclamation— nothing that is done, no law that is when there is, for example, a labour passed, and no effects of any such law problem leading to strikes (whether or passed, when a proclamation of emer­ not the strikes will affect the companies gency is in force, shall be invalidated concerned) since, in any event, any irrespective of any constitutional agree­ strike is bound to bring about some ment with the States of Singapore and internal disturbance. Secondly, will the Borneo. Now, we can therefore pass a Government use these powers of emer­ law which can bring about an internal gency against demonstrations of the disturbance, continue the emergency people against certain measures, which until the law is carried into effect, and demonstrations the Government has after everything is done and the people been given an assurance will not lead are dead and buried, we can then remove to rebellion or revolt, or national dis­ the emergency. Until then, nothing turbance of any large scale? Also, that is passed shall be invalidated, but will the Minister let us know whether the effects of this, even though the or not these powers will be used emergency has been declared to be against agitators for political and civil ended, even then the effects of those rights either in Singapore, or Borneo or ordinances can have after effects which in any of the Malayan States, which may continue as something permanent. agitation shall go no more than beyond Now, Mr Chairman, Sir, Clause (6A) that which is accepted in democratic shows that the Government intends to practice? carry out very drastic changes, because Dato' Dr Ismail: Sir, I wonder Clause (6A) keeps a reserve for the whether the Honourable Member for consent of the States only in certain Dato Kramat is really afraid of the matters. It says: emergency laws, or of the person, my­ "(6A) Clause (5) shall not extend the self, administering the Law. (Laughter). powers of Parliament with respect to any matter of Muslim law or the custom of the If the latter is the case, he has no cause Malays, or with respect to any matter of to worry. native law or custom in a Borneo State; nor shall Clause (6) validate any provision incon­ Enche' Lim Kean Siew: Sir, on a sistent with the provisions of this Constitution point of information—it is very difficult relating to any such matter or relating to to disconnect the Minister of Internal religion, citizenship, or language." Security from his job because he is so Therefore, since Clause (6A) is now impressed by his job that he cannot trying to leave matters of citizenship, but preface his remarks with, "I shall religion and language from the effects lock you up". (Laughter). of such a proclamation, it is quite clear, Dato' Dr Ismail: Well, I am glad apart and outside of these matters, that that the Honourable Member has not the Government intends and will carry said that I have abused the powers, out, without consultation with the because he knows that I have, with a States, drastic changes which it has clear conscience, carried out my duties been forced to agree to in the Agree­ to the country, especially with regard 1419 20 AUGUST 1963 1420

to the preservation of the Socialist Front who is the Government that will admi­ Party. (Laughter). nister these powers. As long as the Sir, he has mentioned the abuse of Alliance Government is the Govern­ powers. Well, Sir, any power can be ment, I am quite sure the country is abused—for example, the power or quite confident that these powers will privilege to speak in this House; it can never be abused—and have they been be used rightly, or it can be abused. abused? But such is the practice of parlia­ Now, on this question of the cold mentary democracy that we have to war, or confrontation, is whether it is pay this and I think it is quite worth really necessary for us to invoke the paying for. Now, am I to assume the power of the emergency. Sir, this is a Honourable Member for Dato Kramat matter of degree. If you carry the speaks for the Socialist Front when he confrontation too far, we will have to criticised this Bill? He gives me the suffer, and we may have to invoke the impression that he agrees with the power of the emergency in order to Emergency power but that he only save our country and our citizens—and criticised the extent of that power. it is the same thing with the cold war. From the way that he spoke he only I am sure that in regard to the Honour­ argued against the extent of the power able Member's Party, I have saved it to be given to the Government. So, I from quite a number of people—due suppose, I am allowed to assume that to my good work I have saved it from in future the Socialist Front will no them. We know, and they know, how longer query the necessity of the emer­ clever these people are in subversion, gency power for this country, because and in a cold war. I am sure they will all that he has done is to criticise the be more ingenious than they have been degree of the power that is to be given so far. So, I think, the country has no to the Government. I am sure the worry at all so far as the Alliance Honourable Member has great faith in Government is concerned in the admi­ me, especially in the way I have admi­ nistering of these powers. nistered this power—it has never been abused, and it is done very judiciously. Enche' K. Karam Singh: Mr Chair­ man, Sir, the Socialist Front must take Now, the Honourable Member has this Minister to task for saying that he mentioned about letting out matters has never abused his powers. The extent relating to religion, citizenship or of the abuse of his powers is evidenced language. But, these are not matters by the overflowing detention camps, that are affected in the case of an (Laughter) and the fact that this Minis­ emergency. He has asked for an ter made a false statement in this House assurance. Well, Sir, as far as this about Enche' Ahmad Boestamam. Government is concerned, there is no Even Mr Profumo fell from his minis­ need for us to give an assurance, tership for giving a false statement. because our performance with regard English Ministers may be more to the way in which we have adminis­ immoral, but they can resign when tered this law has reflected the confi­ they tell falsehoods in the Parliament— dence of the country in us, which has but not Members of the Alliance never been abused. You have seen Government. Sir, even the Honourable the many strikes that had taken place, Prime Minister is tainted with this and we had never used this power to Minister's falsehood, and yet he has not end the strikes in this country. He dared to bring up the integrity of his knows very well the Railway Strike Party in this House. That shows what which had gone on for a long time— an undignified Government is in power, and we had never used this power to which can tell flagrant falsehoods curb the strike. If the Honourable before this House. Mr Chairman, Sir, Member were to read carefully Article this same Minister is responsible for 150 (1) he will see that it says, "that arresting a member of Party Ra'ayat— a grave emergency exists". Now, Sir, a Chinese girl—just for learning the it is not so much the powers given to Malay language. The Police questioned the Government: it is the question of her, "Why are you learning the Malay 1421 20 AUGUST 1963 1422 language? Do you want to learn the the part of this Government to throw Malay language, stand for election and away all qualifications that must attend overthrow this Government?" What is a declaration of emergency. All that wrong in learning the Malay language, they now have to do is to induce them­ the National language, standing for selves into a subjective state of satisfac­ elections, defeating the Alliance tion that a grave emergency to the Government and changing the Constitu­ security or economic life of the Federa­ tion by constitutional means tion or any part thereof exists. Once they get into that subjective state of Enche' Abdul Samad bin Osman mind, they satisfy themselves and they (Sungei Patani): On a point of Order— satisfy His Majesty the Yang di-Pertuan Standing Order 36 (1) says: Agong, that an emergency can be "A Member shall confine his observations declared. Just as simple as all that. That to the subject under discussion and may not introduce matter irrelevant thereto." is why, Mr Chairman, Sir, my Party is very greatly perturbed at these almost Mr Chairman: I think what you absolute powers, this unlimited arroga- have spoken just now is irrelevant. tion of powers, by the Cabinet to itself. Mr Chairman, Sir, I would like Enche' K. Karam Singh: Mr Chair­ to stress that we do not fear these man, Sir, the Chair did not see fit to powers for ourselves—we are prepared rule out the remarks of the Honourable to face any action that the Government Minister when he said he had been may take upon us—but we feel that doing a favour to my Party and things the use of these arbitrary powers—not like that. (Laughter). As he has made only their abuse but their use by the those insinuations, I think, I have a Government—on the democratic rights right to vindicate my Party and it is in of the people would be very bad. That order, because I cannot leave matters is the contention of my Party. Thank alone in this Chamber while my Party you, Mr Chairman, Sir. is being insulted. So, Mr Chairman, Sir, this Minister and this Government—it Wan Mustapha bin Haji Ali: Mr is the collective responsibility of the Chairman, Sir, I would like to associate Cabinet—have shown to this country myself with the Honourable and learned that they are not fit to tell the truth and Member for Dato Kramat in that they abuse their rights by arresting Clause 39 of this Bill has the intention people whose aspiration is to learn the of deleting the words "whether by war National language. And, if the Minister or external aggression or by internal takes me to task, I am prepared to disturbance" from Article 150 of the substantiate every word of what I say. Constitution. Is it the intention of the I hope the Honourable Prime Minister Government to alter drastically the ori­ will take note. (Laughter). ginal provision as provided in the Mr Chairman, Sir, my Honourable present Constitution? Originally the colleague, the Member for Tanjong, intention of the Legislature, as stated has asked the reason for the necessity in the constitutional document, was to omit the words "whether by war or that: external aggression or by internal dis­ "If the Yang di-Pertuan Agong is satisfied that a grave emergency exists whereby the turbance". The only reason is that this security or economic life of the Federation Government wants the right for the or of any part thereof is threatened, whether Cabinet to meet somewhere and satisfy by war or external aggression or internal itself that there is a grave emergency, disturbance, he may issue a Proclamation of whereby the security or economic life Emergency." of the Federation or any part thereof By deleting these three important is threatened—just for this small group phrases, it would give the Government of people to satisfy themselves; and, wide powers and the Government can having satisfied themselves, an emer­ abuse them as long as they are satis­ gency can be proclaimed. Mr Chairman, fied that there is a grave emergency, Sir, the omission of these words because the important words there are "whether by war or external aggression " ... is satisfied that a grave emer­ or by internal disturbance" is an act on gency exists". Emergency can always 1423 20 AUGUST 1963 1424

be proclaimed by the Yang di-Pertuan clamation could have been made before Agong when there is a war, external the amendment of this Article, because, aggression or internal disturbance. My as the Constitution now stands, the only submission here is that even "internal time when the Yang di-Pertuan Agong disturbance" refers to war; in other may declare a state of emergency is words, it does not mean that internal when there is war or external aggression disturbance is political disturbance. By or internal disturbance. It is only under deleting these words, the Government those conditions that a state of emer­ can, if it thinks fit, arrest anybody in gency can be declared and to act in the Opposition Parties when it thinks any other way would have been an that it is going to lose elections by abuse of the present Article of the pretending that the economic life of the Constitution. State is threatened because its power is lessened. The Honourable Minister of Mr Chairman, Sir, I say quite cate­ Internal Security has stated just now gorically that this can, and certainly that he can assure this House that he will, be used against education in would not abuse the powers. Then why Singapore, which the Government take the trouble to delete these words? abhores. Education has caused trouble If he is honest that the Government is enough for the Government in not going to abuse the powers, then why Malaya—in 1956, 1957 and 1958 and is it making a farce of deleting these it led to the break up of the M.C.A. in three important phrases, "whether by 1959. Certainly those were disturbances war or external aggression or by under which, as I envisage it, the internal disturbance"? The fact that it Government would proclaim an emer­ is going to delete them gives suspicion gency; therefore since the only place that it might abuse these powers later that can have such a problem is Singa­ on when the time comes and then the pore, it is aimed and will be used powers may be used for oppression against Singapore. Also, the Singapore and there might even be political unions are strong and it can then also oppression. I think that if the Govern­ be used against the Singapore unions. ment is really in earnest and wants to It is no use arguing that it has never rule this country according to law and been used in Malaya, because we know order, then these phrases should not be that the Malayan trade unions are not deleted. strong enough. This is not an industrial country. This is a semi-agricultural Enche' Lim Kean Siew: Mr Chair­ country and therefore the power of the man, Sir, of course the Government labour force in Malaya cannot be as may argue that since it has not abused strong as it is in Singapore and there­ this provision it will therefore never fore it is quite likely that this pro­ abuse this provision, but who can it clamation will be used against the convince? If that were so, as my labour force of Singapore. How can Honourable friend has said, why not you deny that? then remove this clause. Obviously this clause is to enlarge the powers of the It has been stated that from my Government, and once the powers of argument I am not against these powers the Government are enlarged, they can but against their extension. Let it be then state that they are acting within placed on record that I am against these the law and therefore not abusing their powers and I will always and conti­ powers. It is just like saying that I nuously be against such powers, be­ would be abusing the privileges of this cause either we are going to succeed House if I walk in the Chamber whist­ democratically or, let us not be ling, or without shoes and without my hypocritic, rule this country by dictato­ coat and tie as long as the rules of rial means. It has been said that the decorum exist. But if I were to remove Government has never abused the those rules of decorum allowing me to powers, that every arrest is correct and whistle and sing as I come in and with­ every person detained has been rightly out shoes and coat and tie, I would detained. After all, the Government is then not be abusing the privileges of in possession of the facts. No one this House. It is quite clear that no pro­ knows. But I honestly doubt this. We 1425 20 AUGUST 1963 1426 have a Minister without Portfolio here, we criticise the Government, we are who has been a specialist in the Special anti-Alliance, and therefore anti- Branch. Perhaps he can tell us how Government, and therefore anti-Party, people are detained (Laughter), I do not and therefore disloyal and therefore know, of course. Mr Chairman, Sir, if treasonable and should be hanged! it appears that I have given indication (Laughter). that I support the idea of these powers. I wish to correct this. I do not support Mr Chairman, Sir, there are two ways it. If, on the other hand, it still appears in which dictatorship can be estab­ that I am in agreement with these lished. One is that it is established emergency powers, then may I liken directly by bullying methods as has myself to a horse that for many years been happening in Singapore; the other had been bridled and blinkered and one is by the slow process of pervasion has been pulling the milk cart from and perversion. I have given the exam­ station to station and from house to ple of the islands of Pulau Langkawi. house and no longer knows what There, the sea is eating into the islands freedom means. I mean that kind of of Pulau Langkawi. At low tides we horse is so used to the bridle and chains see the overhang and caverns; at high of serfdom that even when the blinkers tides the sea covers the overhang and are removed from his eyes and the we see the island, perfect in shape and bridle from his shoulders and he is form. Nevertheless, the process of put in a meadow, he does not run but erosion is going on under the surface stands still waiting for instructions, of the water not visible to the human because out of habit he has now eye. become used to his chains of serfdom. Mr Chairman, Sir, I say this not The fact that Malayans have not risen because I am personally attacking any against this situation is because we of the Ministers concerned. I have no have been brought up under colonia­ doubt that the Minister of Internal lism and we have been so used to being Security, in spite of his thunderous kicked around that we are happy that sounds and in spite of his blasters, is, there are less people kicking us around in fact, a very kind-hearted person today than before. But the fact remains (Laughter)—so kind-hearted that I am that we are still being kicked around. sure he will cry at the sight of a mouse I can assure the Minister that many in the mouse-trap. But the question is people today dare not criticise the this. We cannot guarantee that the pro­ Government, or any section of it, or cess of law cannot be abused by the any institution with Government sup­ officers of the Government; we cannot port, because they feel that, if they do accept that infallibility—I repeat the so, they would be disloyal and might word infallibility—of human judg­ lose their jobs or come under the ment; we cannot depend upon the surveillance of the Special Branch. infallibility of human intelligence. We cannot depend upon the infallibility of Mr Chairman, Sir, in dictatorship, it human reasoning and it is this that is not the power that is used that makes makes it necessary to put up a structure the dictatorship. It is the suggestion of which would contain human power power that is the terrifying thing. One and maintain principles congenial to is not terrified of one's father because our political beliefs. Otherwise, why the father has inflicted punishment on have the Constitution; otherwise why the child for his wrong doing, but the have the laws; otherwise, why do we suggestion of power in the father. So have democratic practice? It is this also, when the child is in school, it is structure which we introduce which we not that the school teacher can hang hope will curtail our own desires and the boy up on the rafters by his hands the desires of absolute power of those or by his feet, but it is the suggestion who may take over from us. I am certain of power that frightens the boy. We that the Honourable Minister of Internal have come to a position now whereby Security cannot say that he will forever we are not only cowed but dare not be the Minister of Internal Security. criticise the Government. Every time Who knows that one day he may 1427 20 AUGUST 1963 1428 even be the Prime Minister! Then resurgence of learning of Confucius some other Minister may take over his tenets to such an extent that the need place. Who knows that in a month's for education is even today strongly time, or in a year's time, he may decide enforced in the minds and the cultures suddenly that he is getting tired of of the Chinese and the Japanese Internal Security and may wish to travel peoples. We all know what happened abroad to the United Nations, thus to Emperor Hirohito and what General allowing somebody to take over his MacArthur did to him. He removed place. In that instance, can he him of his godliness to destroy guarantee that his successor, coming totalitarianism. If we have this clause, after him, will have exactly the same it might appear harmless, but there is measure of judgment and the same no saying to what extent this process measure of reasoning? If he can, then will continue down to the very roots we must bow and agree to this Bill. of our democratic political existence. But let us put it the other way and let us exaggerate it further. There are many Dato' Dr Ismail: Mr Chairman, Sir, political parties here. Would he have I am usually a tolerant man and I am reliance on any of our political parties prepared to accept all the accusations carrying out the emergency powers in my capacity as the Minister of Inter­ given under the Constitution in the nal Security in this House, but when same way as he will? I am accused of falsehood, I must categorically deny that statement. The Honourable Member tried to liken me Mr Chairman, Sir, emergency powers to Profumo. There is a lot of similarity should only be introduced during a in the two cases (Laughter). First and period of grave emergency, and it is foremost I deny that there was false­ known throughout the democratic hood; in the second place, in the case countries that grave emergency only of Profumo, there is Christine Keeler; arises when there is an external aggres­ and in my case, there is Boestamam sion such as war and so on, or an (Laughter), If I ever be accused guilty internal disturbance to overthrow the of the same offence that Profumo has Government, such as revolution, or done to Christine Keeler, as I would when there is a serious drought where do to Boestamam (Laughter), that I you need to mobilise the people, as has will never do. happened in Pakistan. But merely to put forward a carte blanche for the Clauses 36 to 40 ordered to stand declaration of emergency is, I think, part of the Bill. serious. It has been said by all philo­ sophers, both religious and non-reli­ Clauses 41-45— gious, that the best rule and the best Enche' V. Veerappen: Sir, Clause power is when one rules according to 43 (3) says "Under Article 92 no area the wishes of the people. But the ques­ in the State shall be proclaimed a deve­ tion of emergency powers is a direct lopment area for the purposes of any contradiction of that principle, which development plan without the concur­ has, for the last 4,000 years, been a rence of the Governor". Sir, this does principle of rule accepted by the Greek, not apply only to the new States which Roman, and Christian philosophers and will join the Federation. The defini­ even by the Muslim theologians, tion of the word "Governor" as stated and by those from the civilisation of in Clause 5, includes any Head of the Hwang Ho basin. We all know State who is not a Ruler. Therefore, what happened to the first Emperor of I take it that this also applies to the China, Shih Huang Ti, when he burned States of Penang and Malacca, but I all the books of Confucius and wanted am rather sceptical of this require­ to establish totalitarianism in China? ment. I do not know why the He was the first, and not Hitler, to try normal phraseology, which is usually to introduce totalitarianism. What hap­ "Governor-in-Council", is not written pened after his death? There was a down, but just "Governor". In view of resurgence of liberalism, there was a the fact that the appointment is made resurgence of learning and there was a by the Yang di-Pertuan Agong and in 1429 20 AUGUST 1963 1430 view of the fact that the State Govern­ pindaan Perlembagaan tentang pem­ ment will not be consulted on this berian wang bagi jalan2 raya negeri, matter, and I also think that there are dan pemberian wang bagi jalan2 raya other provisions where just the term negeri telah di-sebutkan dalam pindaan "Governor" is used and not "Governor- Perlembagaan baharu2 ini hampir sama in-Council", I would like the Minister keadaan, atau kaedah yang sedia ada, to clarify. bukan-lah di-tetapkan jumlah $4,500 pada tahun2 yang tertentu, tetapi ini Enche' Mohamed Asri bin Haji Muda: Tuan Pengerusi, saya hendak bergantong kapada jumlah keselu- berchakap dalam Clause 45 (2) ia-itu rohan-nya mengikut pukul rata bagi perkara State road grant bagi negeri dua tahun yang terdahulu daripada Sabah dan Sarawak. Sahabat saya Ahli pemberian tahun itu. Yang Berhormat dari Bachok telah Jadi, ini erti-nya dengan memasok- membangkitkan perkara ini waktu kan perkara yang saperti ini di-dalam membahathkan perkara ini pada dasar- Rang Undang2 ini, erti-nya negeri nya dahulu, tetapi nampak-nya belum Sabah akan mendapat pembahagian ada penjelasan yang jelas bagi Rumah State road grant yang berlainan dari­ ini tentang soal bahawa negeri Sabah pada negeri2 yang ada di-dalam akan mendapat pemberian kerana Persekutuan Tanah Melayu sekarang. jalan raya negeri-nya sa-banyak Demikian pula Sarawak, walau pun $4,500 atas tiap2 satu batu yang telah tidak di-sebutkan jumlah jalan raya- di-tetapkan sa-banyak 1,151 batu. nya, tetapi pemberian bagi jalan raya bagi negeri Sarawak itu bergantong 1,151 batu ini, Tuan Pengerusi, ada- kapada persetujuan di-antara Kera­ kah di-dasarkan di-atas taraf dan jaan Pusat dengan Kerajaan Negeri darjah jalan raya yang sama dengan 2 Sarawak itu sendiri. Jadi di-atas per­ darjah jalan raya negeri bagi Perse- setujuan itu pun, kita perlu juga kutuan Tanah Melayu ini, atau pun mendapat tahu ia-itu di-asaskan per­ jumlah yang 1,151 batu itu di-sifatkan setujuan itu di-atas apa, ada-kah semua jalan raya yang ada di-dalam di-asaskan di-atas semua jalan yang negeri Sabah? Negeri Sabah yang ada bagi semua darjah, atau taraf jalan pendudok-nya hanya 450,000 orang raya yang ada di-Sarawak itu, atau pun sahaja lebeh kurang dan luas-nya bagi satu darjah atau standard jalan negeri itu tidak sa-berapa mana jika 2 raya yang bersamaan dengan State di-bandingkan dengan negeri di- road dalam negeri2 di-Persekutuan Persekutuan Tanah Melayu ini saperti Tanah Melayu ini. Kalau-lah di-asas­ negeri Pahang sendiri yang ta' sampai 2 kan kapada pukul rata semua sa-kali, beribu batu jalan raya negeri-nya. saya rasa ini satu sifat yang tidak adil, Jadi, dengan di-letakkan di-dalam Rang 2 maka tepat-lah saperti tudohan yang Undang ini sa-banyak 1,151 batu 2 di-katakan bahawa pemberian State jalan raya dalam negeri Sabah sahaja road grant yang akan di-beri kapada yang di-sanggup oleh Kerajaan Pusat negeri Sabah dan Sarawak itu ada-lah akan di-beri State road grant sa- di-asaskan di-atas asas yang tidak banyak $4,500 sa-tahun itu, menjadi- tegas saperti ini ia-itu berdasarkan kan negeri Sabah akan dapat menerima kapada sagu hati, atau pujok rayu sa-banyak 5.2 juta ringgit atau 2 2 sa-mata bagi menyebabkan negeri $5,179,500 bagi tiap sa-tahun. Ini Sabah dan Sarawak itu bersetuju masok satu pemberian yang besar dan ini-lah Malaysia ini. barangkali yang di-sebutkan oleh saha­ bat saya Ahli Yang Berhormat dari Tun Haji Abdul Razak: Sir, I Bachok, bahawa boleh jadi jumlah would just like to reply to the Honour­ jalan raya yang di-peruntokkan ini able Member for Seberang Selatan. merupakan satu pemberian sa-bagai Now, Article 43 (3) refers only to the sagu hati kapada negeri Sabah. 2 new States—the Borneo States and Lebeh lagi telah di-tetapkan bahawa Singapore, as he can see from the notes pemberian jalan itu ia-lah bagi tahun on the sideline, and the word 1964 dan 1965, pada hal beberapa hari 2 "Governor" here means "Governor-in- baharu ini kita telah meluluskan satu Council" quite obviously, because 1431 20 AUGUST 1963 1432

"Governor" has no executive powers. States was determined after a thorough A Governor acts on the advice of examination by the Treasury and the the Executive Council, that means Public Works Department of the actual "Governor-in-Council". costs incurred. To put it briefly. Sir, the conditions in Borneo are rather Enche' Lim Kean Siew: Mr Chair­ special and hence we felt that rather man, Sir, I only stand up to say that I am prepared to give way to my special arrangements have to be made Honourable friend the Minister of for them. Finance. Clauses 41 to 45 inclusive ordered to stand part of the Bill. Enche' Tan Siew Sin: Mr Chair­ man, Sir, I wonder if the Honourable Clauses 46-50— Member for Pasir Puteh was present in this House when I explained at Enche' Liu Yoong Peng: Mr Chair­ some length, in fact considerable length, man, Sir, Clause 48 (1) (c) states: the principles on which we based the "48. (1) The Federal Government and the government of Singapore may from time to financial arrangements which have been time enter into agreements providing for all decided for the Borneo States. I or any of the following matters: sincerely hope he was not present, (a) x x x x because, if he had been present, I can (b) x x x x only come to the conclusion that either (c) the inclusion of Singapore in a common he does not understand me or he was market with the rest of the Federation, fast asleep. I do not think it is right the establishment of a Tariff Advisory Board and the laying down of condi­ for me to repeat what I told the House tions for the levying of import and yesterday, but if he likes, I can send export duties in relation to goods him a copy of the speech I made imported into or exported from Singa­ yesterday evening which will explain pore ;" in full why we have arrived at such Sir, I think that this provision in arrangements. Broadly speaking, if we respect of agreements between the had applied the Federal Constitution Federation Government and the Singa­ or, rather, the financial provisions of pore Government on such matters is the Federal Constitution to the Borneo very important. But in view of the fact States, Sarawak would have been left that the Federation Government and with a very large deficit and Sabah the Singapore Government have not would have hardly anything left with been able to see eye to eye in so many which to carry on State development matters, the question of reaching agree­ projects, and hence the reason for ment in these matters is not so simple. these special arrangements. I should Therefore, there are the many fears explain that in regard to the rate of which have been raised in the Report road grant, we have accepted rather on the Economic Aspects of Malaysia low standards of width for the Borneo by a Mission of the International Bank States for the following reasons. Firstly, for Reconstruction and Development. cost of road maintenance is much There are a few things which I must higher in Borneo than in Malaya. raise here, because I understand that Secondly, in the Federation much of in Singapore when the matter of a the heavy road maintenance plant common market was raised in the used by the States is purchased by the Singapore Legislative Assembly, the Federal Government; this will not be Prime Minister of Singapore, Mr Lee so in Borneo. Thirdly, the specifications Kuan Yew, thought that he could rely for roads required in Borneo are lower on the Rueff Report and he believed than those required in the Federation that Mr D. Marshall was not so much owing to the small number of motor an expert as Mr Rueff. He thought vehicles in use there. In both the Fede­ that the common market had been ration and the Borneo States the rate approved by the Rueff Report and that of road grant will be based on the it was good to rely on this as his guide estimated cost to the State of for agreeing to the common market. maintaining the roads eligible for the However, Sir, I am afraid that if we grant. The rate fixed for the Borneo look through the Rueff Report very 1433 20 AUGUST 1963 1434 carefully, we will find that the Rueff is not going to enjoy the benefit of the Report gives a great deal of alarm, or free zone, That means that goods that rather it points out a lot of things have been brought into the business which it thinks the Federation Govern­ area, if they are taxable, if they are ment as well as the Singapore Govern­ goods that are subject to tariff, they ment should take into consideration, if would have been taxed- Of course, for they are going to be successful in those people like wholesalers, who launching the common market. may be able to keep their goods in so- called bonded warehouses in the free Sir, on page 75 of the Report it is zone, they may not suffer so much, stated, "unless the necessary precautions because they may not need to rely on are taken, a change in the conditions those goods in the bonded warehouses, in which trade is conducted at present because as long as they have samples may lead to serious adverse effects they will be satisfied—although in this on employment,"—I am referring to respect, I am a bit doubtful whether the latter part of paragraph 184. In it would be convenient. order to enable Honourable Members to get a fuller picture I will read the Mr Chairman, Sir, traders in North whole of paragraph 184 which reads: Bridge Road, South Bridge Road, rely "In the case of Singapore, the entrepot for most of their trade not on big trade and tourism together contribute about wholesale business but on customers 20-25 per cent of the national products"— going to their shops, especially the I am afraid that this is repetition, but women who would like to pick and since the Minister of Commerce and choose their cloths taking one or two Industry does not seem to understand, hours in doing so. This type of business I think I had better read it— definitely is going to suffer. Therefore, Sir, if we look at the trade problem "and it is estimated that entrepot trade employs directly about 70,000 persons or of Singapore today, the big business 14 per cent of the labour force; but indirect people, who have wholesale business, effects on employment and national income are not going to suffer much. So far are, of course, much higher. Although it is as the Socialist Front is concerned . . . very difficult to ascertain the number of people employed in the entrepot trade, as distinct from other forms of trading, there is Mr Chairman: Order, order. The no doubt that, unless the necessary precau­ sitting is suspended till 8.30 p.m. tions are taken, a change in the conditions in which trade is conducted at present may Sitting suspended at 7.00 p.m. lead to serious adverse effects on employ­ ment, if not on national income." Sitting resumed at 8.30 p.m. The emphasis here is on employment. We know that in Singapore the entre­ (Mr Speaker in the Chair) pot trade is not being conducted only by the big business companies, where THE MALAYSIA BILL people from Jakarta can just send a House immediately resolved itself into wire and they will get the goods they a Committee of the whole House. want, but also in small business centres, in shops, in window shopping areas. (Mr Speaker in the Chair) There are also tourists and other people who just go to Singapore to enjoy Clauses 46-50— themselves and to buy things which they think are cheap. Therefore, in the Enche' Liu Yoong Peng: Mr Chair­ case of the coming into force of the man, Sir, I was talking on Clause 48 common market, if the Government (1) (c) in regard to the inclusion of were to wire off the free zone, to limit Singapore in a common market with that free zone only to Telok Ayer, or the rest of the Federation, the estab­ may be also the Harbour Board area, lishment of a Tariff Advisory Board and of course Blakang Mati—which I and the laying down of conditions for do not see how it can be of use very the levying of import and export duties much—the rest of Singapore Island, in relation to goods imported into or especially most of the business area, exported from Singapore. This is to be 1435 20 AUGUST 1963 1436 agreed upon between the Federal Singapore who depend for their liveli­ Government and the Government of hood not entirely on wholesaling, but Singapore from time to time. many of them depend for their liveli­ hood on retail sales: for instance, the As I have pointed out, since the rows and rows of shophouses in the Federal Government has not been able business areas of Singapore as well as to see eye-to-eye with the Singapore those smaller stores in Change Alley and Government most of the time, there­ such places, and the many other petty fore. it is important for us to see that retailers. These people earn their liveli­ this question of common market is hood by trade, but not necessarily by going to benefit Malaysia. As we wholesale trade. I think it could be know, the judgment of the Prime quite safe for us to say that such Minister of Singapore regarding the retailers—these small traders and benefits of the common market is based people who depend on such petty on his trust in the Rueff Report, trade—consist of quite a high per­ because he told Mr David Marshall centage of the people in Singapore. that Mr David Marshall was not such an expert as Mr Rueff and, therefore, As we know, once a common market he refuted the argument of Mr David is introduced into Singapore and as Marshall that the common market was time goes on provision will have to be not so good for Singapore. Since this made to see that only certain areas of Rueff Report has been praised sky-high Singapore will be under free zone, and by Mr Lee Kuan Yew, 1 think it would only those goods that are in the free be all right for me to give it the respect zone will be exempted from direct which Mr Lee Kuan Yew wants it to taxes. Therefore, those people who have. Since he agrees with the Rueff earn their livelihood outside the free Report that the common market is zone—those people who sell clothes, good for Malaysia, or for Singapore, textile materials and many other I wish to point out that the Rueff goods—will be subject to tariffs and Report is not as straightforward as therefore the cost of their goods will be Mr Lee Kuan Yew likes it be, or higher than they are now. We all know thinks it is. that one of the attractions of Singapore On page 75, in regard to the entrepot to people in the other parts of the trade, it is stated that Malaysian territories, and the people in the Malay Archipelago as well as "unless the necessary precautions are taken, a change in the conditions in which trade is abroad, is that Singapore in a way is a conducted at present may lead to serious good shop-window and people go there adverse effects on employment." for shopping and to buy things. Once most of these goods sold in shops out­ I emphasise the word "employment". side the free zone area are more costly, We know that the entrepot trade of then Singapore will lose much of the Singapore directly involves about 14 business that accrues to it in this way per cent of the labour force of Singa­ so far. The economist may be able to pore, and the indirect effects on argue that the loss to the gross national employment are even higher. This product from any dimunition in such means that the many people who are trade will not be very much compared not directly in the entrepot trade are, to other incomes. But, as I have nevertheless, depending on the entre­ pointed out, many people struggle for pot trade people for their livelihood their livelihood, merely to get enough directly or indirectly. So, I think it is for their living, in this way, and there­ quite safe for us to assume that, if all fore if, because of the ending of tariff these factors were taken into considera­ protection, Singapore ceases to be a tion, at least a quarter of the labour shop-window, then the tourists and force in Singapore would be affected by others will no longer like to go to the entrepot trade. And, as I have Singapore. pointed out, in this entrepot trade it is not merely those big wholesalers who Tuan Haji Ahmad bin Saaid: On a would be most affected in terms of point of order under Standing Order employment. There are many people in 36 (1). The Honourable Member is 1437 20 AUGUST 1963 1438 speaking on behalf of Singapore. Has tive tariffs, and some are classified as he got a mandate from the Singapore non-protective or revenue tariffs. So people to speak here? far as the protective tariffs are con­ cerned, once Malaysia is established Mr Chairman: I think the Honour­ those products that at present are able Member is quite in order. He is subject to protective tariff in Malaya speaking on the common market. will be extended to Singapore as well, Please proceed. whether or not the protected products Enche' Liu Yoong Peng: For his are made in Singapore. That means to information, Sir, I was born in Singa­ say that if there are no factories in pore and I have a right to speak. But Singapore that are manufacturing cer­ anyway this question is quite irrelevant, tain products, say, motor car tyres for because our loyalty shall be to Malay­ example, even then the Singapore sia whether we are Malayans or Singa­ people would have to pay more for poreans, In the case of the tourists motor car tyres because in Malaya and others who go to Singapore, once there is a Dunlop Factory that manu­ the attraction of Singapore as a shop- factures motor car tyres and the window is lost, then these people may Malayan Government is giving protec­ not go to Singapore and so many of tion to this Dunlop Factory by im­ these petty traders, retailers and small posing a protective tariff on motor car shopkeepers are going to suffer for it. tyres. I am merely giving an illustra­ This is a very serious problem, because tion—I am not saying that this is not labour is one of the most dynamic a good thing. I am merely pointing out problems in a city. Therefore, since the the implications. So, the Dunlop Fac­ entrepot trade of Singapore involves tory in Malaya will enjoy the protec­ 20 to 25 per cent of the national pro­ tion of the Malayan tariffs. And for duct, and indirectly it will be more the sake of the Dunlop Factory of because of the people indirectly affected Malaya, I suppose, if we the citizens by it, unless Singapore's industrialisa­ of Malaya were to concede to pay for tion is able to absorb these people who the extra cost of the tariff protection are going to be affected by the common imposed on the tyres, as in Singapore market arrangements, it is very impor­ there is not a similar factory, Singapore tant that we should take great care to would have to pay more for that pro­ see that the entrepot trade of Singapore duct. In this sense, the Singapore is not going to be affected in this way. people are being asked to shoulder the Again, if we look at the Rueff Report, burden of higher cost without the we will find that under paragraph 185— benefit of that industry being estab­ lished in Singapore itself. This will the latter part of it states— apply as soon as Malaysia is established, "The proposed establishment of a Malay­ although the Singapore Government sian common market will accelerate this process since, to enjoy the benefits of can delay it for one year. In order not regional integration, Singapore will have to to make it too long, I do not propose apply the common protective tariffs whether to go into the relevant sections—and or not the protected products are made in I suppose if I am wrong the Minister Singapore. It is imperative to devise and put into force adequate arrangements to protect will point it out to me—but from the entrepot trade from being adversely memory I understand that the Singa­ affected by such developments." pore Government will be able to delay it for one year only, if it considers that I have already spoken about the all the items of goods are already under entrepot trade. Well, here it is stated tariffs, which can be considered as that "Singapore will have to apply the protective tariffs that are already appli­ common protective tariffs whether or cable in Malaya. Therefore, we can see not the protected products are made that as soon as Malaysia is established, in Singapore." This is something which or for the most one year since then, we should consider, because we know the Singapore Government will have to that the goods which come into Malaya pay more for many of these goods. In at present come under tariffs. Of so far as the non-protective tariffs, or course, there are many kinds of the revenue tariffs, are concerned, tariffs—some are classified as protec­ 1439 20 AUGUST 1963 1440

although the Singapore Government to argue that it is not a "protective can delay it for five years, sooner or tariff" but that it is a "revenue tariff", later they will have to pay for the because the definitions of "protective revenue tariffs that are imposed in tariffs" and "revenue tariffs" are such Singapore. that even when there are certain fac­ On the problem of tariffs, so far as tories producing certain goods, if they the protective tariffs are concerned, are not produced in sufficient quanti­ there is a provision that the Tariff ties, it can be argued that those tariffs Advisory Board should only allow that are imposed are not for the those industries that are able to manu­ purpose of protection and that they are facture certain products in sufficient for the purpose of revenue. Therefore, quantities to be supplied in Malaysia— I think this is where the danger it is only then that they would be lies, because some capitalists may be allowed protection. Therefore, small interested in having a factory in Malaya factories that are not going to produce and because they can get cloths from significant quantities are not likely to Hong Kong cheaply and because the get tariff protection and in that sense, factory is under pioneer status, these from the rate-payers point of view, cloths can come in as raw materials from the citizens point of view, they and be exempted from taxation. Once are not likely to be subjected to an the cloths are in Malaya, they are over burden of tariffs or the higher under tariff protection and, therefore, cost of the protective tariffs. So far as they can be sold in Malaya—but the non-protective tariffs or revenue Malaya is not a country that produces tariffs are concerned, I think the posi­ cotton and, so far as the textile industry tion is not very clear. Revenue tariff is concerned, Malaya will not have raw means a tariff which is imposed not material for the textile factory. for the sake of protecting any industry Mr Chairman: Order, order. You of Malaya, but simply because the seem to have been arguing on general Government thinks that as it is short principle rather than on details. We of money it wants more money, and have already debated on the general it, some how or other, tries to get principle for the last four days and I money from somewhere and decides to think it is better if you confine yourself get it by way of imposing a tariff on to the details of the provisions in the goods imported into this country, and Bill which the House is now debating; this is known as a revenue tariff. otherwise, there will be no end to it. If you have any problems or questions Sir, on this question of revenue you can raise them and the Minister tariffs, I have certain observations to in charge will reply to them. make. For instance, let us suppose there is a factory in Johore Bahru for Enche' Liu Yoong Peng: I am the so-called manufacture of textiles. actually going into the very detail at In actual fact it may be importing the moment, because I am not con­ manufactured cloths from Hong Kong cerned with the general principle. I am into Malaya—and these cloths are touching on the detailed aspects of the exempted from tax. In the factory the common market as it applies to the cloths are dyed and they are then industry. considered to be manufactured pro­ ducts, or locally manufactured cloths, Mr Chairman: But that is general. for sale in Malaya. Since these so-called We are now dealing with Clauses 46 Malayan-made cloths are not produced to 50. Can you point out under which in sufficient quantities for the whole of clause you are now speaking? the Malayan market at the moment, I Enche' Liu Yoong Peng: Yes, Sir. do not think any tariff imposed can be I am dealing with Clause 48 (1) (c) considered as protective tariff. Those which says "the inclusion of Singapore people, who are interested in the in a common market with the rest of matter, when they are faced with the the Federation, the establishment of a problem of deciding whether it is a Tariff Advisory Board and the laying protective tariff or not, would be able down of conditions for the levying of 1441 20 AUGUST 1963 1442 import and export duties in relation is so tremendous that this factory is to goods imported into or exported not able to supply the demand, but from Singapore"; and I am going to because some interested parties want show, Sir, how, by having a factory to protect this factory, certain tariffs in Malaya, they are not going to have are imposed at the moment in Malaya, mass production and the Singapore and in the future in Malaysia, and people thereby have to bear the heavy therefore as a result of this the people cost of the products through the in Malaya, and later Malaysia, will imposition of this import duty. I think have to buy more costly products this is quite relevant to the matter because of the tariff that is imposed under discussion. for the benefit of the capitalists who own that industry. This is a problem. Mr Chairman: If you want any I think that the Government should clarification from the Minister, he can pay particular attention because we reply to you. If you keep on talking have been talking all the time that one on these details, there will be no end. of the attractions of Singapore is because It will be difficult for the Minister who of the low cost of the goods that they will have to reply to your points. sell. But if in Malaya a few capitalists Classify your points, say what you are going to open up factories and use want, then the Minister can answer raw materials from outside to make your questions. It would be so much goods and then with tariffs imposed easier, otherwise it will take a long the people in Malaysia are going to time. We may have to sit for the whole pay higher for the products; and the of tonight if you were to go on like people in the entrepot trade are going this. to suffer very much. So, these are Enche' Liu Yoong Peng: I certainly dangers which I think we should bear want the Minister to reply to my points. in mind. As far as I can see, Sir, the The particular point which I want the Federation Government, the Ministry Minister to consider is about the danger of Finance in particular, has not been of having a non-protective or revenue able to see these dangers. Sir, the Prime tariff imposed in Malaya and getting Minister of Singapore, Mr Lee Kuan the citizens to bear the cost of it Yew, because he is over-confident—I unnecessarily; but the Minister has not do not know where he got the idea understood what I wanted him to that the Rueff Report favours a answer. common market very much—says "O.K." to everything, and therefore Mr Chairman: He will reply to your we, the citizens of Malaya and in questions once you have finished. Have future Malaysia, will have to suffer you finished? for the lack of consideration of the Enche' Liu Yoong Peng: No. I have implication of the common market not finished yet. I am afraid if I do and the tariff applications in this not clarify these points, the Minister respect. will not be able to make head or tail I think you, Sir, meant that I should of it. Therefore, Sir, he will be unable not put in too many points at a time. to So I will just stop for a while to allow Mr Chairman: I am sure he will be the other side to answer my questions. able to reply. Make your speech as The Minister of Commerce and short as possible. Industry (Dr Lim Swee Aun): Sir, I Enche' Liu Yoong Peng: As I was must thank the Honourable Member saying, Sir, in the case of this factory for Rawang for filibustering because he which, for example, makes textiles, this has given us on this side of the House factory is not able to supply the goods the time to gather a quorum of two- for the whole of Malaysia. We need so thirds majority. The Honourable much goods which cannot be produced Member has dwelt in detail what the by this factory. The population of implications of the common market Malaysia is ten million and the amount are, and because the common market of goods the people of Malaysia require is an important economic problem of 1443 20 AUGUST 1963 1444

Malaysia, I think it would be fair, as there is a lot of mix-up in the definition I had not the opportunity to reply to of what entrepot trade is and what a him at the second reading of this Bill, free port is. to take this opportunity to talk at length to his satisfaction as to what a Now, Sir, the entrepot trade of common market means. Singapore and Penang depends mainly on the entrepot trade of primary The Honourable Member, who is products like rubber, tin and pepper, the shadow Minister for Commerce and which come from Indonesia and the Industry of the Socialist Front, has Borneo territories and which are, or quite correctly stated that our present are not processed in Singapore and economy is largely dependent upon the Penang, and then re-exported to foreign sale of export-earning primary commo­ countries. That is the major part dities like rubber and tin. Now, these of the entrepot trade. This entre­ primary commodities are exported to pot trade is not growing as fast as advanced countries which manufacture one would expect, in fact, it is declining. them into goods and then we in turn Because of this, it is apparent that we reimport these manufactured goods. must diversify our economy, otherwise Sir, I think it is fair, although we have our Malaysian economy would be in a already got a two-thirds majority, to jam, if we were too dependent on give them a full explanation of the rubber and tin. We all know this fact. common market. We all know that diversification is essential. Therefore, we have already The Malayan economy is dependent taken action in our First and Second upon rubber and tin but because prices Five-Year Plans to diversify our of these two commodities are falling, economy, to diversify our agriculture we must look for an alternative source and also to start industrialisation. of revenue. Rubber which used to be worth $1.06 in 1960 has now dropped In the early part of this year, our to 68 cents a pound. That is due to Governments—the Singapore Govern­ competition from synthetic rubber and ment and the Federation Government— also from releases from the stockpile. felt that, because of the impending Our second export is tin. Tin earns for formation of Malaysia, we should invite us about 15 per cent of our total experts from the World Bank to come exports; but we produce 40 per cent and advise on how to integrate the of the world's tin and yet the total economy of the Malaysian States into production of the world's tin is less one unit—the economic integration of than what is required by consumers. Malaysia—and also to advise on the Now, if there had been a free market, feasibility and how to start a common the price of tin today would be any­ market. We have talked about this where around £1,000 per ton, but common market with Singapore for because of the releases from the United several years—it is nothing new. This States tin stockpile, the price of tin has Mission of nine world known econo­ been depressed to round about £900 mists—not theorists but people who a ton. Therefore, we cannot expect the really work on economics, who are earnings from tin to make up for the economic experts of Governments, who losses in the drop in the price of have given advice to developing rubber. countries—came here under the leader­ ship of Mr Rueff, and they found that Mr Chairman, Sir, Singapore, Penang our economic situation and our econo­ and Labuan are free ports—by "free mic probelms were exactly the same as port" we mean that on these islands what we ourselves had already known, there is no import duty; but these free and they agreed that the answer is ports also depend upon entrepot trade greater diversification. for their business. Entrepot trade means trade in importing goods from outside With the formation of Malaysia the country, breaking bulk, and then itself, the physical formation of Malay­ re-exporting to another country—that sia, our market has already expanded; is entrepot trade; but unfortunately and not only has this expanded our 1445 20 AUGUST 1963 1446 market but it has also diversified our Further to make sure that these primary economy, because there is pepper, there products, which are the major part is coffee, and there are other things of the entrepot trade of Singapore, are grown in the Borneo territories which not adversely affected, in paragraph 1 are not grown here. With this forma­ at the beginning of Annex "J" we have tion of a common market, it would said that the common market shall not help us to have freer movement of our affect goods and products of which the agricultural produce—that is to say principal terminal markets lie outside things like vegetables, fruits, maize, Malaysia. So, the entrepot trade of fish and livestock products. As it is, Singapore is not only preserved, but we recently, because of the barrier, in also make sure that it does not get Johore Bahru there was an egg-and- damaged. The entrepot trade of Penang chicken war between Singapore and and Singapore is vital to them, but to Malaya, but with a common market the Central Government it is equally for these agricultural produce there important, because it earns foreign will be no necessity for another egg- exchange for us; and because of that and-chicken war. This may seem frivo­ no Central Government would be lous, but it is an important economic foolish enough to destroy the entrepot problem, because recently America trade of Singapore and Penang. has threatened to take economic retalia­ tion on the European market also Now, Sir, how do we introduce this because of an egg-and-chicken war. common market? The first thing we have to do is to enact a law for the Sir, the main incentive of the diversi­ setting up of a Tariff Advisory Board. fication of the economy in Malaysia is We have a Bill coming up subsequently industrialisation. With industrialisation in this respect. This Tariff Advisory we expect to get more industries going Board will consist of a Chairman and which in turn means more employment, three Deputy Chairmen. The Chairman and if there is more employment there will be a neutral person agreed to by will be more people using locally Singapore and us, and the rest of the manufactured goods. It will mean less panel will consist from between eight necessity of importing foreign goods, to twenty people representing these hence a saving in foreign exchange. The territories. Whenever any product is problem now is, how do we start this considered to be suitable as a product common market? The common market to be included in the common market, is a progressive thing. It is not some­ this product must be presented to the thing that comes out "bang" tomorrow, Tariff Advisory Board for considera­ everthing is common market. It cannot tion. The Tariff Advisory Board, before be done that way without upsetting the it can decide to put on protective duty, entrepot trade of Penang and Singapore. must consider the following points: That is why in our London Agreement we made it clear that we must safeguard (a) the need for a balanced industrial the entrepot trade of Penang, Singapore development throughout Malay­ and Labuan. sia; In our London Agreement—Annex (b) the interests of the entrepot trade "J" of the London Agreement—we of Singapore, Penang and Labuan; define what entrepot trade is. Section (c) the interests of existing industries 4 (5) says: and of consumers in Malaysia, "For the purposes of this agreement, the including cost of living, cost of entrepot trade of Singapore means trade in production of industries and in goods and products imported into Singapore from outside Malaysia and primary products particular of export industries and imported into Singapore from other parts of cost of development works in the Malaysia, which goods or products, whether public sector of the national further processed or not, are subsequently economy; re-exported from Singapore to destinations outside Malaysia." (d) employment and national income This excludes your imported primary in Malaysia; products like rubber, tin and pepper. (e) Federal and State revenues. 1447 20 AUGUST 1963 1448

Therefore, it can be seen that this On the point about Russia, I wish Tariff Advisory Board, before it can to say that when I mentioned that put on protective duties on any parti­ Russia did not want war, I was merely cular product to be included in the thinking of what the Minister of Works, common market of Malaysia, must Posts and Telecommunications had consider carefully all these points. So, been telling me—that the Russians do all those arguments put up by the not want war, they want peace, they Honourable Member for Rawang that are having a high standard of living, it will destroy the entrepot trade, it and, therefore, they are quite happy. will kill everybody's living, is nonsense, So, I am just reflecting the thoughts of because all these facts are before him an Alliance Minister. If one of the and he should have studied them. Alliance Ministers can agree with it, I do not see why the others cannot agree Sir, there is one point which I must with it as well? take up. During the debate on the Second Reading of this Bill, the The Honourable Minister has Honourable Member did go on the already answered a number of points, same theme that the reason why we but I still got a number of details of want a common market is because which I am not so sure as to what the Singapore must industrialise—because position will be like with regard to this Singapore must industrialise, therefore, common market, especially with regard we have a common market; because we to this free zone. So far as the free zone have a common market it will destroy is concerned, as I have pointed out, it Singapore's entrepot trade; and because is most likely that in Singapore it will it will destroy entrepot trade, there will be limited to the Telok Ayer area and be economic chaos. Therefore, he may be the Singapore Harbour area, states that the most important thing is and certainly it would include Blakang that we must find employment for the Mati, which is not an area very much people. And his answer to all these liked by the people. As we know, the problems is that the only way to do amount of goods that can be classified it is the Russian way. It is obvious as entrepot trade goods are so tremen­ where he got his political and economic dous that I just wonder how these direction from. goods can be properly handled in the seemingly very limited space that the Enche' Liu Yoong Peng: Now, Mr Government can provide in Singapore. Chairman, Sir, since the Minister of I think I would ask this question first Commerce and Industry has alleged because too many questions may a number of things against me, I think confuse. I should clarify for his benefit. He said that the Tariff Advisory Board Enche' Tan Phock Kin: Mr Chair­ has so many things to consider. Of man, Sir, may I add one more ques­ course, I think that the members of the tion to that of the Honourable Member Board, as economists, will have many for Rawang? It is with regard to the things to consider, and I think they statement made by the Honourable should consider them. But, the crucial Minister concerned that as far as the thing here is that the Tariff Advisory common market is concerned, the Board is advisory—and advice is not Tariff Advisory Board will be guided binding. The Tariff Advisory Board can by certain economic principles stated always advise the Government and the in the Report. I ask this, because I had Ministry of Finance, in particular, but the occasion to read a statement by the Minister of Finance may disagree. none other than the Honourable Minis­ Therefore, that is where high politics ter of Finance to the effect that if the come into play. Although I am quite Singapore Government is to be led by prepared to respect the views of the the same group of people, he will see economists, but when politics is mixed to it that economic pressure will be up with economics, then I am not quite applied. So, does that reflect the sure where the decision will lead us. Government's view, or does it only That is why I want to point out the reflect the view of the Honourable danger in that respect. Minister of Finance? The statement 1449 20 AUGUST 1963 1450 was made to a section of the Malayan collecting the bulk of the revenue from Chinese Association. Singapore. The only exceptions are listed in paragraphs (a), (b) and (c). So, Enche' Tan Siew Sin: Mr Chairman, can the Honourable Minister enlighten Sir, it is not at all correct to say that I us as to how this came about—whether made a statement to the effect that if it is due to any laxity on his part, or the Singapore Government were headed whether it is due to their great desire to by the present people who are in control, have Malaysia. economic pressure will be applied to Singapore. I do not know where the Honourable Member obtained such a Enche' Tan Siew Sin: Mr Chairman, statement. I hope he does not allow his if the Honourable Member for Tanjong imagination to run riot at this hour of had taken care to listen properly the night. yesterday, when I made my speech on the second reading, he would have Enche' Tan Phock Kin: If he is going discovered that I tried to make it clear to make a denial of it, I would like to that if we had applied the full provi­ say that it is all over the papers. He can sions of the Federal Constitution to the refer to them. States of Sabah and Sarawak—and I Mr Chairman: Clauses? repeated it again earlier this evening— Sarawak would have been left with a Enche' Tan Phock Kin: Mr Chair­ very large deficit and North Borneo, man, Sir, I have a few questions to be that means Sabah, would not have been directed to the Honourable the Minister left with sufficient funds to carry out its of Finance with regard to the Bornean development projects. He should have States—they are on Clause 46 (1), realised from the statement which I "Special grants and assignments of made earlier this evening and from the revenue to Borneo States", and Clause statement I made yesterday, that these 47 (1), "Reviews of special grants to clauses really represent a division of the Borneo States." In view of these special revenue derived from the two Borneo grants, money must be obtained from States themselves. As a result of these somewhere. Can the Honourable Minis­ two or three clauses here, the propor­ ter of Finance enlighten this House tion which would be retained by the from where he expects to get the money for grants of this nature, and will this Federal Government would be less than affect our development projects and if the present financial provisions of the whether he can give an assurance to Federal Constitution had been appli­ this House that with the coming into cable, but it should be made clear that force of Malaysia the burden of taxa­ this money is really derived from the tion of the people of this country will two Borneo States concerned. So, there not be increased? is no question of the present Federation of Malaya subsidising the two Borneo Then, Sir, on the financial arrange­ States in so far as their recurrent expen­ ments with Singapore, it has been diture is concerned. In so far as stressed time and again that we must development expenditure is concerned, have a strong Central Government, and I have tried to make it clear yesterday a strong Central Government must, of that, as a result of the aid which we course, have full powers in finance. had been promised—both by the Here, Sir, we find that Clause 48 (1) Singapore and the British Govern­ (a) says that— ments—it is likely—I cannot guarantee "the manner in which the revenue derived the future—it is likely that a very by the Federation from Singapore or any large part of the $500 million which part of that revenue is to be collected and had been quoted in the report of the accounted for, and the division of it between the Federation and the State;" Inter-Governmental Committee can be found from the States themselves and Arising from this, Sir, we have to look from these two sources. In so far as into the agreement with Singapore to Singapore is concerned, the arrange­ see how revenue is being collected. It ments arrived at, as the Honourable appears here, Sir, that the Singapore Member himself is well aware, have Government will be responsible for been arrived at after very arduous 1451 20 AUGUST 1963 1452 negotiations and I think the final result deduced, if he has any sense at all, that represents a fair compromise of what I said with regard to the recurrent should be due to the Federal Govern­ expenditure that we do not have to sub­ ment and what should be due to Singa­ sidise Sabah, in the case of Sarawak pore. There are, of course, many ways the subsidy is very small, and Singa­ of dividing Singapore revenue as pore financially is in a very strong between the Federal and State autho­ position. With regard to development rities, but the method of apportionment, expenditure, Singapore obviously does i.e. percentage method which we have not need any subsidy and, as I said decided on, I think, is as good as any. before, the $500 million which has In any case, we have also agreed that if been noted in the report of the Inter- in the course of the next 18 months or Governmental Committee could pro­ thereabouts one party or the other bably be found from Singapore and the should feel that it has not got a fair resources of the two Borneo Govern­ share of the revenue proceeds, as the ments themselves. To add up, I think Honourable Member and the House it is possible, even indeed probable, know, there is provision for review and that the Federation will not have to for subsequent reviews after that. So I finance the three newly joining mem­ think eventually the arrangements will bers to any very great extent, if at all. be fair to all concerned. In regard to future taxation pro­ Enche' Tan Phock Kin: I am afraid posals, as I have said, I am not that the Honourable Minister of obviously in a position to reveal Finance, either deliberately or other­ anything. wise, has failed to answer one very Clauses 46 to 50 inclusive ordered important question: will the burden of to stand part of the Bill. taxation on the people of this country after Malaysia be increased? Clauses 51-54— Enche' Tan Siew Sin: As the Enche' Tan Phock Kin: I rise to Honourable Member for Tanjong is seek clarification on the Judicial and well aware, I think it is not possible, Legal Service Commission. nor is it desirable, for me to tell the Honourable Member what taxation Mr Chairman: Under what clause? proposals I have for the future. Enche' Tan Phock Kin: Clause 52 Enche' Tan Phock Kin: We are (1), Sir. It would be noted that apart debating the Malaysia Bill and all these from the Judicial and Legal Service factors are important to enable us to Commission in the Federation, we have determine whether or not to support the the so-called branches of such a Com­ Bill. If we know very well that our mission in the other territories—-in financial resources are ample and that Singapore and in Borneo—and the we are in a position to assist people, composition of the so-called branches then that will be a very good reason is listed in this Bill. May I know from to persuade members of this House to the Minister concerned the necessity for support the Bill. I personally feel that this arrangement? this is a very relevant point. If we are asked to support the Bill, we must Tun Haji Abdul Razak: Mr Chair­ know our financial position—whether man. Sir, it is necessary to have the we are able or unable to embark on branches of the Judicial and Legal this Malaysia. I feel, Sir, that the Service Commission in the various Minister is not doing his duty in territories for efficiency in the adminis­ refusing to disclose to this House the tration and for convenience. Obviously financial position of this Government. if we have one Commission here, the members of the Commission will have Enche' Tan Siew Sin: I think, Mr to travel to the various territories ail Chairman, Sir, the Honourable Mem­ the time. So it is convenient to have ber for Tanjong is denser than I had these branches—as we have in the case given him credit for. If he had heard of the Public Services Commission— my remarks properly, he would have in these territories. 1453 20 AUGUST 1963 1454

Enche' Tan Phock Kin: May I know itu boleh di-jaga dan di-kawal dengan to what extent does the Commission menggunakan Clause 60. Tetapi, Tuan here have control over the branches? Pengerusi, saya rasa apa yang saya Are the branches responsible to the mushkilkan maseh ada lagi di-sini dan main Commission in Kuala Lumpur? pada pendapat saya perkara ini patut di-lakukan oleh Kerajaan dengan halus. Tun Haji Abdul Razak: We have control to the extent that we have two Tuan Pengerusi, sub-clause (3) yang representatives designated by the berbunyi: Federal Government and members of "(3) So long as under this Constitution the Commission are appointed by His any other State is in a special position as Majesty the Yang di-Pertuan Agong. compared with the States of Malaya, Parlia­ ment may by law impose restrictions, as between that State and other States, on the Clauses 51 to 54 inclusive ordered to rights conferred by Clause (2) in respect of stand part of the Bill. movement and residence: Provided that no restriction on the right Clause 55— of movement between the State of Singapore and the States of Malaya shall be imposed Tun Haji Abdul Razak: I beg to by virtue of this clause except by a law move a small amendment to Clause 55 relating to labour or education or to any (7) as in the amendment slip which has matter in respect of which, because of the been circulated to Honourable Mem­ special position of the State of Singapore, it appears to Parliament to be desirable to bers and which reads as follows: prevent the enjoyment of rights both in the Clause 55, page 34, in the second line of State of Singapore and in the States of sub-clause (7), after "a Borneo State" insert Malaya." "or Singapore." Nampak-nya, Tuan Pengerusi, sub­ This amendment is necessary in clause (3) yang ada di-dalam ini sengaja order to give the branch of the Public di-buat bukan-lah hendak menjaga Services Commission in Singapore, as Persekutuan Tanah Melayu, tetapi well as the Borneo territories, jurisdic­ ia-lah untok menjaga Singapura sahaja; tion in regard to the filling of vacan­ tidak ada di-dalam sub-clause ini yang cies in Federal departments by officers akan membolehkan penggunaan sub­ seconded from the States. clause ini bagi kepentingan Persekutuan Tanah Melayu walau pun ada di-sebut Enche' K. Karam Singh: Mr Chair­ "to prevent the enjoyment of rights man, Sir. both in the State of Singapore and in Mr Chairman: On the amendment the States of Malaya", tetapi tujuan- only—if you want to talk on that, you nya yang besar menurut fahaman saya can, but not otherwise. ia-lah kalau sa-kira-nya kepentingan labour and education di-Singapura itu Amendment put, and agreed to. mementingkan supaya di-tahan per- 2 Enche' K. Karam Singh rises. gerakan orang dari Singapura ka- Persekutuan Tanah Melayu atau Mr Chairman: The Committee is pergerakan orang dari Tanah Melayu debating Clause 55 as amended. If you ka-Singapura bagi kepentingan labour want to debate on that, you can. and education, baharu-lah dapat di- gunakan sub-clause ini. Jadi, nyata Clause 55, as amended, ordered to kapada kita bahawa sub-clause ini stand part of the Bill. tidak dapat mengawal Persekutuan Tanah Melayu. Saya ingin tahu dari- Clauses 56-60— pada Timbalan Perdana Menteri Yang Enche' Zulkiflee bin Muhammad Berhormat, bagaimana-kah clause ini (Bachok): Tuan Pengerusi, di-dalam sampai jadi bagitu sa-hingga menyebab- Bab 60 ini ada-lah satu perkara yang kan Persekutuan Tanah Melayu ter- telah saya terangkan dahulu berkenaan dedah kapada perpindahan yang akan dengan penahanan orang2 ka-Perseku- membahayakan-nya, sebab apa yang tuan Tanah Melayu; saya telah di- di-sebutkan di-sini ia-lah "relating to berikan jawapan oleh Yang Berhormat labour and education" dan sebab pun Menteri Dalam Negeri chara penahanan kita boleh menggunakan sub-clause ini 1455 20 AUGUST 1963 1456 ia-lah kerana menjaga special position melainkan kita ada kuasa bagi menahan of the State compared with the States sa-siapa yang di-fikirkan membahaya- of Malaya. kan kapada keselamatan kita. Jadi, menurut pindaan ini pun, chadangan Enche' V. Veerappen: Mr Chairman, kita bagitu juga ia-itu keadaan yang Sir, I am quite concerned about the ada sekarang ini tidak-lah hendak di- fact at Clause 58 which says, tukarkan, tetapi kuasa yang ada "The Public Service shall not be taken to di-bawah "restricted residence" ada-lah comprise— berjalan dalam negeri ini, sa-siapa (a) yang di-fikirkan merbahaya kapada (b) tempat itu, boleh-lah di-tahan daripada (c) office of judge of the Federal Court or bergerak kapada sa-suatu tempat itu. High Court; or Jadi, kita tidak-lah dengan ini men- (d) the office of member of any Commis­ sion .... dedah, atau pun mengechiSvakan (e) such diplomatic posts as the Yang di- kedudokan Persekutuan Tanah Melayu, Pertuan Agong may by order prescribe sebab kita ia-lah, keadaan tidak me- nukarkan keadaan yang ada pada hari In view of what is happening in this ini. Tetapi, berkenaan dengan hal country, where even the post of the labour and education, kita Kerajaan office of the elected Council was in Pusat ada-lah berkuasa hendak meng- hadkan perkara ini, kerana kita ta' question as to whether it is public 2 service or not, I think these exceptions hendak orang dari Singapura dapat which are given here would give a lot mempunyai dua faedah—bagi Singa­ of loopholes, because the term "public pura dan juga bagi negeri ini Perse­ service", when taken in the context of kutuan Tanah Melayu. Jadi itu-lah any action in the Court, means a lot. tujuan kita mengadakan provisio ini. I would ask the Deputy Prime Minister Mr Chairman, Sir, on the point to clarify. raised by the Honourable Member for In regard to Clause 60, Mr Chair­ Seberang Selatan, I think Clause 58 man, Sir, I am rather perturbed over makes it quite clear in regard to the this question in sub-clause (4) which various offices or posts that are includes a new clause in our Constitu­ excluded from the definition of "public tion. The new clause reads: service". I think all Members of Parliament and Legislative Assemblies "(3) Restrictions on the right to form associations conferred by paragraph (c) of are excluded, and there should be no Clause (1) may also be imposed by any law doubt about this under the Constitu­ relating to labour or education." tions, and I am not sure where the Honourable Member has any doubt. I am particularly concerned about Under this, I think, it is clear—the education, and I wonder whether this various posts that are excluded from is intended to apply to the University the definition of the "public service". Socialist Club of Singapore and whether it would be extended to exclude the On the question of restricted resi­ University Socialist Club from form­ dence in Clause 60, as I have explained ing an association, because that is an just now, the purpose of this proviso to association as you will understand, sub-clause (3) is to enable us to prevent Mr Chairman, Sir, I hope the Honour­ people of Singapore from enjoying able Deputy Prime Minister will double benefits under education and clarify. labour, because education and labour are subjects within the jurisdiction of Tun Haji Abdul Razak: Tuan the Singapore Government. So we will Pengerusi, bagi menjawab Ahli Yang have the power to stop people of Berhormat darl Bachok, saya suka Singapore from enjoying benefits under terangkan bahawa kita tidak menukar this if we so desire. peratoran yang ada sekarang ini ia-itu sekarang ini ada-lah pergerakan atau Enche' Zulkiflee bin Muhammad: movement di-antara Singapura dengan Tuan Pengerusi, saya rasa apa yang Tanah Melayu ini ada-lah bebas, di-terangkan oleh Timbalan Perdana 1457 20 AUGUST 1963 1458

Menteri itu tidak-lah dapat di-terima, be prevented or restricted from forming kalau mengikut apa yang di-bahathkan associations in Singapore. di-sini. Sebab jelas daripada sub-clause ini, tujuan yang besar dari awal lagi Enche' Tan Phock Kin: Mr Chair­ ia-itu mengatakan ia-lah untok menjaga man, Sir, Clause 60 (1) is making a kepentingan Singapura, bukan untok very fundamental change. From the menjaga kepentingan Persekutuan Constitution, we also see that Part II Tanah Melayu. Terang-lah: deals with fundamental liberties and Clause 60 (1) will do away with the "Provided that no restriction on the right of movement between the State of Singapore fundamental liberties which were and the States of Malaya shall be imposed guaranteed to us in the Constitution. by virtue of this Clause except by a law It states that notwithstanding the pro­ relating to labour or education or to any visions of Articles 9 and 10, the matter in respect of which, because of the special position of the State of Singapore." Government can do certain things with regard to restricting the movement of Jadi, yang saya hendak bahathkan people and with regard to association. sa-malam sa-telah berbangkit perkara Members of this House will note that, ini ia-itu sa-kira-nya membahayakan as time goes on, what has been Persekutuan Tanah Melayu, kemasok- guaranteed in the Constitution is slowly an orang2 dari segi labour, atau edu­ being got rid of under the guise of cation. Bagaimana kedudokan perkara amendments to the Constitution. I am ini, ada pun kalau sa-kira-nya ber- afraid, Sir, that this is a very dangerous kenaan dengan keselamatan, tentu-lah practice. Once the Government uses the perkara itu memang ada kita mem- communist tack themselves, they are punyai kuasa restriction, dan itu tidak- going to go to an extent in which the lah dengan clause ini, tetapi dengan democratic rights of the people and clause yang ada dalam Constitution fundamental liberties are going to be yang sekarang ini pun di-tulis ia-itu: removed. If the Government does not believe that we should enjoy such Subject to any restriction imposed by any fundamental liberties, then it should law relating to the security of the Federation. not have them written in the Consti­ tution; but to have them written in the Yang menjadi soal ia-lah perpindahan Constitution and to modify them later yang timbul kerana labour. Maka apa- on to such an extent that we no longer kah satu jaminan bahawa ini dapat enjoy them is to deceive the people. di-pelihara bagi kepentingan Perse­ When the people of this country first kutuan Tanah Melayu. approved the Constitution, they had this in mind—they feared that certain Enche' V. Veerappen: Mr Chairman, rights must be embodied in the Consti­ Sir, I am afraid that the Deputy Prime tution. I think it was the Reid Com­ Minister, shall I say, is rather trying mission which expressed the fear of a to confuse me. Clause 60 (1) relates to certain section of the community and, the restriction of movement, which in fact, they gave the assurance that in prevents the enjoyment of rights in the this country fundamental liberties will States of Malaya and also in Singapore, not be tampered with and that the where as Clause 60 (4) is different. Government will not go to the extent Clause 60 (4) adds a new Clause to of tampering with the fundamental our Constitution and restricts the free­ liberties of the people. But merely to dom to form associations. The new satisfy the fears of a certain section, Clause reads: they had this section on fundamental "Restrictions on the right to form associa­ liberties written into the Constitution, tions conferred by paragraph (c) of Clause and the Alliance Government was one (1) may also be imposed by any law relating of the parties which approved the to labour or education." Constitution. Conditions at that time Forming an association, Mr Chairman, were far worse than what it is today. Sir, I submit, is entirely different from If the fear of the Government of being enjoying the rights in the two territories. overthrown by an armed revolt is That means people from Singapore will prevalent today, it would have been 1459 20 AUGUST 1963 1460 much worse at the time when the protect, although we give them the Constitution was written; and I cannot power to legislate in matters of educa­ see any reason whatsoever for the tion and labour. In other words, we Government to change its stand. I hope have taken upon ourselves the liberty the Honourable the Deputy Prime of restricting the liberties of our Minister can enlighten us on this. citizens. Tun Haji Abdul Razak: Sir, I Clauses 56 to 60 inclusive ordered would like to explain that this amend­ to stand part of the Bill. ment to Article 9 is necessary because, as Honourable Members are aware, the Clauses 61 to 65— people from the Borneo territories have asked for this special arrangement with Enche' K. Karam Singh: Mr Chair­ regard to immigration, and that is why man, Sir, I think when our good friend it is necessary to have this amendment Tuan Syed Nasir reads Clause 61 of to enable them to restrict movement this Bill, I am sure he is going to jump between the States of Malaysia and the up with rage, because Clause 61 says— Borneo territories. It is not the inten­ I will read it a little to convey its full tion to restrict movement in any other meaning to some of our Members who way. may not have read this Bill, especially some of the backbenchers of UMNO: Now, Sir, as regards Clause 60 (4), "No Act of Parliament terminating or it is necessary to restrict or to pass restricting the use of the English language laws to restrict the right to form asso­ for any of the purposes mentioned in Clauses ciations conferred by paragraph (c) of (2) to (5) of Article 152 shall come into Clause (1), because Singapore has not operation as regards the use of the English language in any case mentioned in Clause (2) only executive but legislative powers as of this Article until ten years after Malaysia regards labour and education. There­ Day." fore, it is necessary for us to have this power in case we find it necessary to Mr Chairman, Sir, this means that restrict the formation of associations English is going to continue for ten by the citizens of Singapore, who are years after Malaysia Day, that is, if Malaysian citizens. That is all that is things go on well and there is no act intended here. of God ten years from now. I am sur­ prised that our Honourable friend from Berkenaan dengan pertanyaan Yang Johore Tenggara is not even aware of Berhormat dari Bachok, saya suka this, and I hope the poor Member will terangkan bahawa menurut proviso listen so that we can enlighten him. Parlimen ada-lah berhak mengadakan undang2 kalau hendak menahan per- Mr Chairman, Sir, we know that gerakan orang dari Singapura berkaitan every year we have a Language Month, dengan labour dan education. Berke­ Bulan Bahasa Kebangsaan, the begin­ naan dengan hal lain ia-itu security and ning of which is heralded with very public order semua sudah ada dalam great celebrations; we are called to the Fasal 9 (2). Jadi ini-lah tambahan-nya, Stadium Merdeka and all that. But now sebab Singapura berkuasa dalam labour I wonder whether Bahasa Kebangsaan dan education. is Jiwa Bangsa or English is Jiwa Bangsa. Enche' V. Veerappen: Mr Chairman, Sir, I am sorry to interrupt. From the Mr Speaker: Have you to go all over reply of the Honourable the Deputy that again? Prime Minister, I am given to under­ stand that because Singapore has special Enche' K. Karam Singh: Just a little, powers with regard to education and Sir. Do we have to have two Jiwas labour, we have to have this. But Bangsa—English and Malay? This is Singapore does not have or the Consti­ fundamental, because we cannot have a tution of Singapore does not guarantee nation with a split mind, or a nation the fundamental liberties of the citizen; with a split jiwa; and I am sure that it is the Federal Constitution which had the backbenchers of the UMNO guarantees, and therefore it is for us to been aware of this they would have 1461 20 AUGUST 1963 1462 revolted—but they have been kept in Mr Chairman: I think I have told blissful ignorance. you just now that we are not debating Mr Chairman, Sir, is it possible to the principle of the Bill but the details create a single nation which is divided only. on its language, which is divided on its Enche' K. Karam Singh: Could you tongue. Can that nation be united? I please tell me what do ypu mean by hope, Sir, after Malaysia Day is "details", Sir? proclaimed .... Enche' Tan Siew Sin: That is not Enche' Tan Siew Sin: Mr Chairman, for you to ask. Sir, I rise on a point of order. Standing Order 55 (1) reads as follows: Enche' K. Karam Singh: (To Enche' Tan Siew Sin) You are not the Speaker, "Any Committee to which a Bill is com­ mitted shall not debate the principle of the or Chairman. I will listen only to the Bill but only its details." Chair. I submit, Sir, that the Honourable Mr Chairman: I gave my ruling just Member has obviously flagrantly viola­ now. I told you that the Committee ted this particular Standing Order. should not debate the principle—that is my ruling. You can speak on the details Enche' K. Karam Singh: Mr Chair­ only. You understand what it means. man, Sir, what the Minister of Finance wants us to do is to keep quiet and let Enche' K. Karam Singh: Mr Chair­ this Bill go through. I am not speaking man, Sir, I was just talking on the on the general principle. I am speaking details of this Bill—the details in res­ on Clause 61, and that refers to the pect of Clause 61: the extension of English language, and I hope that the English for ten years from Malaysia Minister will not be so brave as to try Day. I have to speak on that. I cannot to stop me from speaking on that. speak on anything else. Mr Chairman: But the Committee Mr Chairman: Proceed. to which this Bill has been committed shall not debate the principle but only Enche' K. Karam Singh: Mr Chair­ the details. man, Sir, this provision in this Bill shows that those people sitting in the Enche' K. Karam Singh: Sir, I am Cabinet have no policy on the language touching on the details. I am speaking of this country—in fact, they are stand­ on the language question—Clause 61. ing up to interrupt me in order to I hope that we do not have the spec­ prevent me from revealing their weak­ tacle after Malaysia Day is proclaimed ness. On the one hand they are of Tuan Syed Nasir calling up our deceiving the people with the slogan children and asking them to make "Bahasa Jiwa Bangsa" and here they English the jiwa of our bangsa due to are enacting an Act to subvert the the great emphasis laid on English. fundamental and supreme position of This is an absurd position—the Govern­ our National language by allowing ment itself does not know what its own English to continue for another ten language policy is; it does not know for years—that is my submission to this what it is preparing the people. House. Enche' Tan Siew Sin: Mr Chairman, Dato' Mohamed Hanifah bin Haji Sir, on a point of order—Standing Abdul Ghani (Pasir Mas Hulu): Tuan Order 43 reads as follows: Pengerusi, dalam Clause 61 ini ia-itu "Mr Speaker in the House or the Chairman in Committee shall be responsible for the memberi tempoh bagi kegunaan bahasa observance of the rules of order in the House Inggeris dalam masa 10 tahun sa-lepas and Committee respectively, and his decision tertuboh-nya Malaysia. Tempoh-nya on any point of order shall not be open to sangat-lah lama, wal hal kita di-Tanah appeal . . . ." Melayu sekarang ini sedang mengguna- The Honourable Member is obviously kan bahasa Melayu, atau bahasa ke- flouting your ruling in the matter and bangsaan sa-bagai bahasa resmi negeri continues to speak on the principle of ini yang akan dapat berjalan dalam the Bill. tahun 1967 dengan mendapat kelulusan 1463 20 AUGUST 1963 1464

Parlimen, dan sa-kira-nya sampai akan melambatkan penggunaan bahasa dalam tahun 1967 kelak, negeri2 Melayu sa-bagai bahasa resmi bagi Borneo itu belum juga dapat menjalan- Malaysia. kan penggunaan bahasa Melayu sa- bagai bahasa resmi bagi negeri2 itu, Enche' V. Veerappen: Mr Chairman, bahkan terus-menerus menggunakan Sir, for the enlightenment of the Hon­ bahasa Inggeris, maka tidak-lah dapat ourable the Minister of Finance and kita menyamakan penggunaan bahasa the House I would like to say that we Melayu di-dalam Malaysia ini, wal hal are not trying to delay. I will try to sa-bagaimana yang kita ketahui ia-itu confine myself to just one word in sa-bagaimana yang telah di-terangkan Clause 61, which contains five sub­ oleh pehak Kerajaan, atau Parti Per- clauses—and sub-clause (2) has three ikatan bahawa wilayah2 di-Borneo itu sub-sections. Sir, I am just going to sangat suka hati dan gembira hendak confine to one word in sub-clause (1) masok di-dalam Persekutuan Malaysia of Clause 61 which reads: ini, oleh sebab itu sa-kira-nya mereka "(1) ... the use of the English language in 2 any case mentioned in Clause (2) of this itu tergesa hendak masok Malaysia, Article until ten years after Malaysia Day." atau suka hendak masok Malaysia, maka patut-lah mereka itu bersetuju The word is "ten". In our Constitution, supaya dapat menyamakan tempoh Sir, it is provided that, in the Malay penggunaan bahasa Inggeris, sa-bagai­ States, or shall we say, the States of mana yang kita gunakan di-Tanah Malaya by which they will be known, Melayu ini ia-itu sampai tahun 1967 whether the representations of those tetapi kalau mengikut tempoh yang di- eleven States use English or not in this tetapkan itu, maka penggunaan bahasa House in this country, is to be decided Inggeris akan habis tempoh-nya dalam by this House—and as the Members tahun 1973. from Borneo and Singapore will also be Members in this House, they will have the privilege of deciding together with Tuan Pengerusi, memberi tempoh us whether we use English or not in dengan bagitu lama akan melambatkan this House after 1966. Therefore, this lagi usaha kita yang hendak mengguna­ provision for ten years is not necessary, kan bahasa Melayu sa-bagai bahasa because by it we have the ridiculous kebangsaan di-dalam Persekutuan position of people sitting here who will Tanah Melayu ini yang telah memberi have that privilege or right in this House. tempoh dalam masa 10 tahun, walau So, even in this House we have a pun pehak Dewan Bahasa dan Pustaka difference—a difference of those people sedang menjalankan gerakan peng­ speaking a language, which we the gunaan bahasa Melayu di-dalam negeri elected representatives of the people of ini, tetapi pehak Kerajaan belum lagi this country have no right to speak. nampak-nya giat menggunakan bahasa Mr Chairman, Sir, it is most untenable Melayu, dan sa-kira-nya Kerajaan mem­ and most ludicrous situation. beri tempoh 10 tahun lama-nya bagi 2 penggunaan bahasa Melayu di-wilayah Clause 61 (2) (a) says, Borneo itu sa-lepas Malaysia, maka ini "(a) to the use of the English language in akan melambatkan penggunaan bahasa either House of Parliament by a member for Melayu di-sana. Oleh itu, saya suka or from a Borneo State; . . . ." menerangkan kapada pehak Kerajaan, kalau pehak negeri2 itu sunggoh2 hen­ I do not know why this special privilege dak masok Malaysia, maka patut-lah should be given. It is most untenable mereka itu bertolak ansor sa-bagai­ and I hope the Honourable Deputy mana yang telah di-tetapkan dalam Prime Minister will clarify. Thank you, Article 152 dalam Perlembagaan Per­ Mr Chairman, Sir. sekutuan, dan dengan chara yang demi- Tun Haji Abdul Razak: Tuan kian itu kita akan dapat menggunakan Pengerusi, saya hendak menerangkan bahasa Melayu di-dalam Malaysia, dan berkenaan dengan soal bahasa ia-itu sa-kira-nya mengikut tempoh sa-bagai­ pada masa kita di-Tanah Melayu ini mana yang di-tetapkan oleh Kerajaan menchapai kemerdekaan dan membuat itu, maka usaha2 yang sa-macham ini Perlembagaan ini dahulu kita telah 1465 20 AUGUST 1963 1466 menetapkan ia-itu kita benarkan dua given ten years as we were given under bahasa di-gunakan dalam tempoh 10 our present Constitution. Obviously as tahun. Jadi bagi hendak mengadakan they have had education all the years perkara ini kapada orang2 di-wilayah2 in English, it is very difficult for them Sabah dan Sarawak, kita membenarkan in a matter of a few years, as we here juga mereka itu menggunakan bahasa found it too, to switch completely to Inggeris dalam tempoh 10 tahun sa- Malay. That is why we have given lepas Malaysia. Kita hendak-lah ingat this concession to them and 1 think bahawa mereka itu telah beberapa it is fair. This is also the concession tahun di-bawah pemerentahan British that we have had for ourselves—ten dan telah menggunakan bahasa Ing­ years after Independence; and they too geris. Pelajaran di-sana boleh di-kata- should have ten years after Malaysia. kan semua dalam bahasa Inggeris. Sebab itu-lah tidak munasabah kita Enche' V. Veerappen: Mr Chairman, hendak paksakan dalam tempoh tiga Sir, according to our Constitution, in empat tahun mereka menggunakan ba­ 1967 we have to debate this question hasa Melayu. Dengan sebab mereka itu of whether we use the English language berkehendakkan perkara ini di-jalankan as another official language or not. sama dengan keadaan kita dahulu Could the Honourable Deputy Prime pada masa kemerdekaan di-jalankan Minister tell us whether the people in dalam tempoh 10 tahun. Jadi kita fikir Borneo, since they have English as one ada-lah munasabah di-benarkan mereka of their official languages, would be menggunakan dalam tempoh 10 tahun, participating in the matter in this House ini tidak berma'ana yang dasar kita and deciding for us whether we, the hendak mengembangkan dan meninggi- representatives of the States of Malaya, kan taraf bahasa kebangsaan kita di- have to use the English language or not. Persekutuan Tanah Melayu dan juga Would they be permitted to do so? Malaysia. Kita akan teruskan dasar itu. Tun Haji Abdul Razak: This is a Apabila bahasa Melayu—bahasa ke­ matter for Parliament to decide, of bangsaan di-beri keutamaan yang sa- course, they may have a say, but they benar—harga yang sa-penoh-nya tentu- cannot stop us from deciding on what lah mereka itu dari Sabah dan Sarawak we want to do with ourselves. But, juga akan mempelajari bahasa ini under this Bill, they would be given ten dengan kedua-nya dapat di-gunakan years after Malaysia Day, but we can barangkali kurang daripada tempoh 10 decide for ourselves in 1967 that we tahun itu. will use only Malay.

There is no need for the Honourable Clauses 61 to 65 inclusive ordered to Member for Damansara to remind us stand part of the Bill. about our policy on the National langu­ Clauses 66 to 70— age. I must say that the policy of the Alliance Government is to make Malay Dato' Mohamed Hanifah bin Haji the sole National language within 10 Abdul Ghani: Tuan Pengerusi, dalam years after independence. We shall Clause 68 yang berbunyi: carry out that policy and there is no "Nothing in Clause (2) of Article 8 or need for him to appeal to the United Clause (1) of Article 12 shall prohibit or Malay National Organisation Members invalidate any provision of State law in Singapore for the advancement of Malays; here in this House or outside, because but there shall be no reservation for Malays the UMNO know how to look after in accordance with Article 153 of positions themselves and how to decide matters in the public service to be filled by recruit­ for themselves. (AN HONOURABLE ment in Singapore, or of permits or licences for the operation of any trade or business MEMBER: Hear! Hear!) In this Bill in Singapore." we have tried to be fair to the people of the Borneo territories. They have Tuan Pengerusi, dalam clause ini tidak accepted Malay as the National langu­ ada di-sebutkan hak istimewa orang age, but they have asked that they be Melayu yang ada di-sharatkan dalam given time before they are forced to Perlembagaan, Artikel 153 wal hal pe- use the language, and they have been hak Menteri Pertanian sa-bagai ketua 1467 20 AUGUST 1963 1468

UMNO di-Singapura telah memberi Clauses 66 to 70 ordered to stand pengakuan kapada orang2 Melayu part of the Bill. di-Singapura bahawa dengan jadi-nya Malaysia kelak maka orang Melayu di- Clauses 71 to 75 ordered to stand Singapura juga akan dapat hak isti- part of the Bill. mewa sa-bagaimana yang ada di-dalam Clauses 76 to 80— Tanah Melayu. Mengikut Bill ini tidak ada sharat2 sa-bagaimana yang ada Enche' K. Karam Singh: Mr Chair­ dalam Artikel 153. Tuan Pengerusi, man, Sir, Clause 76 (3) reads as walau pun ada sharat2 yang telah di- follows: berikan kapada orang Melayu di-Tanah "The Attorney-General shall on the appli­ Melayu mengikut Artikel 153 umpama- cation of any party interested in any legal proceedings, other than proceedings between nya Scholarship, Public Service dan the Federation and a State, certify whether sa-bagai-nya tetapi maseh lagi orang any right, liability or obligation is by virtue Melayu tertinggal di-belakang dan tidak of this section a right, liability or obligation dapat mengatasi dengan sa-penoh-nya of the Federation or of a State named in the certificate, and any such certificate shall for hak istimewa untok orang Melayu itu, the purposes of those proceedings be final dan maseh ada orang Melayu tertinggal and binding on all courts, but shall not di-belakang daripada bangsa asing pada operate to prejudice the rights and obligations hari ini. Tetapi dengan keadaan yang of the Federation and any State as between tidak ada di-sebutkan langsong hak2 themselves." istimewa mengikut Artikel 153 yang Mr Chairman, Sir, I think the people terdapat di-Persekutuan Tanah Melayu who drafted this Bill must have been ini. alang-kah lebeh tinggal-nya orang2 singularly unimaginative and the Melayu di-Singapura itu. Kalau kita di- Government must have been equally sini ada hak istimewa yang belum dapat glass-eyed when it allowed this pro­ di-nikmati dengan sa-penoh-nya bagai- vision to escape into this Bill, because mana-kah orang2 Melayu di-Singapura when we say that the Attorney-General, itu dengan sharat Clause 68 ini dapat on the application of any party orang2 Melayu kita di-sana faedah atau interested in any legal proceedings, dapat memajukan dalam segala shall certify to certain effect and for lapangan. the purposes of those proceedings, such certificate shall be final and binding on Maka ini-lah satu chara, Tuan all courts, this is a very strange legal Pengerusi, yang di-berikan kapada provision because if the Attorney- ra'ayat Singapura, tetapi tidak dapat General is given such a power, in what­ di-satukan, maka itu-lah sebab-nya ever respect it may be, he would in kami di-sini memang menentang terus fact be constituting himself the highest Undang2 Malaysia ini dengan sebab 2 court of appeal in this country. His Undang itu tidak menjaga Tanah certificate will be binding even upon Melayu ini. a judge and upon the court. Here it Tun Haji Abdul Razak: Tuan says, "any party interested in any legal Pengerusi, saya telah terangkan dalam proceedings". If the Attorney-General's masa menjawab pindaan ini ia-itu fasal certificate is in favour of one party, 68 menyebutkan bahawa Kerajaan what is the position of the other party? Singapura mustahak membuat Un­ Then what is the use of the other party dang2 dan peratoran2 bagi kemajuan proceeding with the matter in court, orang2 Melayu di-Singapura, tetapi seeing that the certificate of the Kerajaan Singapura tidak berkehen- Attorney-General will already be dakkan untok menentukan reservation binding upon the court and not even di-dalam bab itu; apa yang di-katakan a judge can refuse to be bound by that oleh rakan saya Yang Berhormat certificate? This is a very strange Menteri itu ia-lah orang2 Melayu di- provision, because normally the parties Singapura ada berhak menerima will have to present their case and the keistimewaan-nya menurut fasal 153 judge will have to decide on the merits saperti orang2 Melayu di-Tanah Me­ or demerits, on the rights and wrongs layu ini. Ini ada-lah pindaan; jadi, of a case. But here even the judge is itu-lah perjanjian yang di-buat. not independent. In fact, the judge has 1469 20 AUGUST 1963 1470 to accept the certificate of the Attorney­ certify, and I think the proper person is General as if it was a law, as if it was the Attorney-General. an Act of Parliament. It leads to that Encbe' K. Karam Singh: Mr Chair­ absurdity. man, Sir, it does not mean that if this Further, to obviate the necessity of provision is not new, it should not be a my rising again, I refer to Clause 77 (5) matter for reconsideration, because, as where a similar provision is again I have said, I am dealing with Clause made. It reads : 76 (3) where it is stated that "The "The Attorney-General shall, on the appli­ Attorney-General shall on the appli­ cation of a party to any proceedings, certify cation of any party . . . . ". There • whether any, and if so what, substitution of may be various circumstances and I one party for another is to be made by virtue of sub-sections (2) and (4) in those would ask the Deputy Prime Minister ~ proceedings or for the purpose of any 3:ppeal to reconside11 the position and not just arising out of them, and any such certificate stick to it because it has been in the shall for purposes of the proceedings or any previous Constitution. Anything is liable such appeal, be final and binding on all courts, but shall not operate to prejudice the for reconsideration if there is any rights and obligations of the Federation and likelihood of it being illogical. any State as between themselves." Clause~ 76 to 80 inclusive ordered to Mr Chairman, Sir, this is a repetition stand part of the Biil. of the provision in Clause 76. But my Clauses 81 to 85 inclusive ordered to strongest objections are directed against stand part of the Bill. ll Clause 76 (3) and I would ask the Deputy Prime Minister whether he Clauses 86-90- would reconsider and withdraw this Enche' K. Karam Singh: Mr Chair­ great power which is proposed by this man, Sir, I refer to Clause 89 which is Act to place in the hands of the on the subject of "Continuance in Attorney-General. office of existing judges", and it reads: Tun Haji Abdul Razak: Mr Chair­ "(1) Subject to the provisions of this man, Sir, I am sorry the Honourable section, on Malaysia Day the persons holding office immediately before that day as judges and learned Member for Damansara of the Supreme Court of Sarawak, North has not even read the Constitution. Borneo and Brunei and of the Supreme Clause 76 (3) is in the present Consti­ Court of Singapore shall become judges of tution under Section 68 (5). It is taken the Federal Court and of the High Courts word by word from that Article. as follows: (a) the Chief Justice of the Federation Obviously, Sir, someone has to certify shall become Lord President of the the rights, liabilities and obligations of Federal Court, • • . ." the Government of the Federation or a Mr Chairman, Sir, we have, in fact, State. There must be someone to do it covered this ground in the earlier and the proper person to do it is the debate on the judiciary. However, Attorney-General. This certificate will here again we are faced with the fact not operate to prejudice the rights and that the Chief Justice of the Federation obligations of the Federation and any has already been appointed by this State as between themselves. This Bill to be the Chief Justice, to be the certificate is only to certify the rights, Lord President of the Federal Court. liabilities and obligations of the Federal Here again, I would ask whether these Government or of the State Govern­ are not the results of British pressures, ments. It is not a new or novel pro­ as they are being evident in the new vision. It has been in the Constitution amended Constitution which provides all these years and the Honourable for the Act of Malaysia, or whether it learned Member has never seen it is not the work of expatriate secretaries before. who have stipulated this into our new I think it is the same way with Constitution. Sir, to stipulate for the Clause 77 (5), to which also the Chief Justice or the Lord President Honourable Member referred. It is of the Federal Court in this Act, I necessary in the administration of think, is going a little too far to ensure criminal proceedings for someone to a sort of right of succession to this 1471 20 AUGUST 1963 1472 high office. So, Mr Chairman, Sir, 1964, kerana apa-lah ma'ana-nya again I would urge upon this Govern­ Demokrasi Berparlimen kalau ada ang­ ment to reconsider its stand in the gota2-nyai yang tidak di-pileh oleh interest of the development of this ra'ayat. Maka kita berharap supaya nation to see that a citizen is made Demokrasi Berparlimen itu dapat di­ the Chief Justice of these new States. jalankan dengan sa-benar-nya supaya tiap2 wakil di-pileh oleh ra'ayat. Dan Tun Haji Abdul Razak: Mr Chair­ tentu-lah dunia akan ketawa melihat man, Sir, obviously on Malaysia Day kita mengamalkan demokrasi, :tetapi we will have to have Lord President ada anggota yang tidak di-pileh oleh •- of the Federal Court, and the obvious ra'ayat. Maka tarikh 1968 itu patut person to be appointed Lord President di-ganti dengan tahun 1964. of the Federal Court is the Chief Justice of the Federation. I would like Enche' V. V eerappen: Mr Chairman, to inform the Honourable Member for Sir, I refer to Clause 94 (3) in regard Damansara that there are no expatriate to indirect representation in the House secretaries at all now. I think he is of Representatives, that is, in this completely out of date with the Mala­ House. It says: yanisation programme of the Govern­ "During the period of indirect elections ... ment. As I said, there are only two by order of the Governor made with the judges now who are not citizens of this concurrence of the Yang di-Pertuan Agong; country. So our policy has always been and the order may either require the elections It to be made from among members of the to Malayanise our public service, and Assembly .. , ."-that is in the Borneo there is no question that we will States-" .. or permit others to be elected." not appoint a Malayan citizen or a I am rather wondering, Mr Chairman, Malaysian citizen to any high office, Sir, what "others to be elected" means. if there is one suitable for that appoint­ and I would like to seek clarification. ment. Would it mean, for example, members Enche' K. Karam Singh: Mr Chair­ from the gallery over there? (Laughter) man, Sir, I would like to ask the And, could they be elected to the Honourable Deputy Prime Minister House of Representatives? I would whether he is saying that if we are fit seek clarification because it concerns to be independent, if we are fit to be us, and we are the people who must called a great nation, we are not fit to guard our rights. (Laughter). produce from among our citizens the Lord President of the Federal Court. Tun Haji Abdul Razak: Tuan l Is this what the Honourable Deputy Pengerusi, berkenaan dengan pan­ Prime Minister of this country saying? dangan dari Ahli Yang Berhormat Mr Chairman, Sir, is the Honourable wakil Pasir Mas Hulu, saya perchaya Deputy Prime Minister not even pre­ wakil Pasir Mas Hulu ini ta' faham sa-benar2-nya democracy. Jadi, pilehan pared to face this fact in this House? raya yang democracy ini ada banyak­ Clauses 86 to 90 inclusive ordered to bukan pilehan macham di-sini sahaja; stand part of the Bill. indirect election itu pilehan raya juga. Di-Sarawak dan Sabah sana ada Clauses 91 110 96- pilehan raya, pilehan raya indirect Dato' Mohamed Hanifah bin Haji election. Jadi, Ahli2 yang akan dudok Abdul Ghani: Tuan Pengerusi, saya di-Dewan ini yang mewakili Sabah hendak berchakap dalam Clause 94 dan Sarawak ia-lah Ahli2 yang di-pileh (2) yang mengatakan: menurut indirect election, bukan-nya "The period of indirect elections in any Ahli2 yang di-lantek; yang di-pileh State shall be, for elections to the House oleh wakil2, yang di-pileh oleh ra'ayat. of Representatives, the period up to the first 2 dissolution of Parliament occurring after the J adi banyak ada negeri yang memakai end of August, 1968, or, for elections to the chara indirect election, bukan ta' ada Legislative Assembly, the first dissolution of election. that Assembly so occurring: " . Now, as regards the question raised Maka alang-kah baik-nya kalau tarikh by the Honourable Member for Sebe­ Ogos, 1968, itu tukar kapada tahun rang Selatan, the question of election 1473 20 AUGUST 1963 1474 of representatives from Sabah and di-pileh dan ada sa-paroh tidak di- Sarawak to the House of Representa­ pileh. Saya fikir elok-lah di-adakan tives is a matter to be prescribed by pilehan raya dalam tahun 1964 supaya regulations by their Governments with tidak ada bedza-nya wakil2 yang the concurrence of the Central Govern­ dudok di-dalam Dewan Ra'ayat ini ment. This matter has not been finalised mengikut pilehan raya. yet, but this Clause 94 (3) permits elections to be made either from mem­ The Prime Minister: Tuan Pengerusi, bers of the Legislative Assemblies or saya suka hendak memberi keterangan others. "Others" would mean those sadikit berkenaan dengan pilehan raya whom they consider suitable to repre­ yang di-adakan di-Borneo itu. Ini-lah sent Sarawak and Sabah in the House pertama kali-nya di-adakan pilehan of Representatives. Obviously, they raya di-Sabah dan Sarawak. Jadi ini would elect their own men from their ada-lah untok melateh ra'ayat2 di-sana own territories. This is a matter for untok memahami chara2 pilehan raya them to do, and this is a matter that yang di-adakan dalam Majlis2 Tem- will be prescribed by regulations with patan, dan apabila mereka itu telah the concurrence of the Federal Govern­ di-pileh dalam Majlis2 Tempatan, ment, because the Federal Government maka daripada situ pula mereka itu must have a say in this as they will di-pileh bagi Dewan Division (Divi­ become members of the House of sional Advisory Council) dan daripada Representatives. Dewan Division itu mereka pula di- Enche' V. Veerappen: Mr Chairman, pileh bagi Dewan Negeri. Di-dalam Dewan Negeri itu berkuasa-lah Sir, as a fitting finale to our very 2 important debate, could I prevail upon Governor untok melantek ahli yang the Honourable Deputy Prime Minister pada pandangan-nya berpatutan dan to accept one word and move that ada pula kelayakan untok mendudoki amendment himself. I just want him to dalam Majlis Dewan Negeri. Jadi, ini add the word "qualified-' after the ada-lah susah sadikit bagaimana chara- word "others", otherwise it may mean nya yang di-jalankan melalui pilehan that anybody could be elected. raya yang telah di-buat di-Sarawak itu. Untok mengadakan pilehan raya Enche' Mohamed Asri bin Haji di-Sarawak itu kapada Council Negeri Muda: Tuan Pengerusi, sa-benar-nya sa-bagaimana yang kita ada sekarang berbangkit-nya perkara ini ia-lah di- ini, tentu-lah akan mengambil masa atas mushkil-nya Ahli Yang Berhormat sadikit. dari Pasir Mas Hulu ia-itu berkenaan dengan masaalah tidak ada-nya pilehan Pada tahun 1964 saya bimbang dan raya di-Borneo. Jadi sekarang perkara bagitu juga Kerajaan bimbang bagi ini telah di-terangkan oleh Timbalan negeri Sarawak itu, ada-kah chukup Perdana Menteri ia-itu kata-nya sung- masa bagi pehak orang2 di-sana mema­ goh pun Ahli2 itu datang dari hami benar2 tentang democracy yang Borneo dudok di-dalam Dewan ini kita jalankan di-sini. Kita di-sini pun pada masa akan datang dengan tidak mengambil masa yang panjang juga, di-pileh sa-chara langsong, akan tetapi dan dengan kerana itu, kita patut-lah kata-nya mereka itu telah melalui memberi peluang kapada mereka itu pilehan raya sa-chara tidak langsong, dengan memberi masa yang chukup dan ada negeri yang mengikut ka- panjang, dan kalau di-pendekkan masa edah saperti ini, akan tetapi, Tuan yang singkat itu dengan di-buat chara Pengerusi, saya rasa perkara ini terlalu yang sa-macham ini, saya fikir masa- ganjil dalam sa-buah Dewan Ra'ayat nya ada-lah terlalu singkat. Jadi saperti kita ini akan ada dua jenis ahli. dengan kerana itu hendak-lah di-beri Satu daripada-nya ahli yang di-pileh peluang kapada mereka di-sana supaya sa-chara langsong, dan satu lagi ahli mereka itu dapat berlateh bersama2 yang di-pileh dengan tidak sa-chara dengan kita untok mengambil bahagian langsong. Jadi, democracy apa-kah dalam pilehan raya sa-bagaimana yang nama-nya, saya ta' tahu, barangkali kita adakan peratoran pilehan raya democracy tidak masak—ada sa-paroh yang berjalan di-negeri kita ini, dan 1475 20 AUGUST 1963 1476 saya harap peratoran yang sa-macham Enche' Liu Yoong Peng: Mr Chair­ ini dapat kita jalankan di-sana. man, Sir, from what I have heard from the Prime Minister, when he Enche' Zulkiflee bin Muhammad: stated that the people of the Borneo Tuan Pengerusi, saya ada satu sahaja territories have to be taught democracy hendak minta penjelasan ia-itu yang for some time, am I to understand patut di-terangkan oleh Yang Ber­ that this is going to be the Malay­ hormat Perdana Menteri. Boleh-kah sian version of guided democracy? saya bertanya kapada Yang Berhormat (Laughter). Perdana Menteri—di-dalam runding- an2-nya di-antara Kerajaan Perseku- 2 Enche' K. Karam Singh: Mr Chair­ tuan Tanah Melayu dengan Kerajaan man, Sir, it is very surprising that the Negeri di-Borneo itu, ada-kah benar Honourable the Prime Minister should ikhtiar2 bagi menimbangkan perkara 2 have agreed to this question of in­ itu supaya negeri Borneo itu dapat di- directly nominated, or indirectly adakan pilehan raya-nya terdahulu chosen, or indirectly elected people to daripada tahun 1968? Maksud saya, come into the House of Representa­ Tanah Melayu dahulu kita adakan 2 2 tives, the House of the people, the bertingkat itu betul, tetapi pada mula Dewan Ra'ayat; and still more di-adakan pilehan raya dalam tahun 2 surprising is the championing of these 1952 itu ia-lah untok memileh ahli di- undemocratic measures by the Honour­ dalam Dewan ini. Jadi ahli2 Council 2 able the Prime Minister in this House. yang sa-tengah daripada mereka itu Clause 94, says: ada-lah mendapat kuasa daripada ra'ayat, kalau umpama-nya pehak "(1) In the Borneo States there shall be a negeri2 di-Borneo itu mendapat sa- period of indirect elections to the House of 2 Representatives and to the Legislative kurang -nya 42 orang, dua puloh Assembly .... orang daripada-nya itu di-pileh, saya (2) The period of indirect elections in any rasa itu ada sedap sadikit kalau hendak State shall be, for elections to the House of berunding dengan orang2 yang di-pileh, Representatives, the period up to the first atau pun sa-kurang2-nya sa-tengah dissolution of Parliament occurring after the end of August, 1968, or, for elections to the daripada-nya, walau pun umpama-nya Legislative Assembly, the first dissolution of sa-belum tahun 1968. Kita bukan-iah that Assembly so occurring: berchakap sa-mata2 kerana ta' berasa 2 Provided that with the concurrence of the sedap dengan orang yang tidak di- Governor of a State the Yang di-Pertuan pileh, tetapi dia sendiri sa-bagai wakil Agong may by order direct that this sub­ ra'ayat, dia hendak-lah di-pileh oleh section shall have effect in relation to the ra'ayat sendiri. State with the substitution of an earlier date for the end of August, 1968." Dato' Mohamed Hanifah bin Haji Abdul Ghani: Tuan Pengerusi, saya Mr Chairman, Sir, it says "the period hanya hendak minta satu sahaja ia-itu up to the first dissolution of Parliament saya suka mengingatkan kapada Yang occurring after the end of August, Berhormat Perdana Menteri, sa-masa 1968". What, Mr Chairman, Sir, if the kita mengadakan pilehan raya dahulu, first dissolution of Parliament after kita belum pernah menempoh apa2 August, 1968 occurs around 1973? pun di-dalam pilehan raya sa-belum There is a possibility, Mr Chairman, daripada itu, dan bagitu juga pilehan Sir, of 1972 or 1973. So, for this period, raya yang telah di-adakan dalam tahun the Honourable the Prime Minister 1955 dahulu, rasa saya belum ada said "temporary". This can go into a gangguan apa2 pun, dan sa-kira-nya decade or almost a decade. It is this pehak wilayah2 di-Borneo itu tidak provision which would lend substance payah mengadakan pilehan raya-nya to the contentions of those who say that pada masa ini oleh sebab hendak Malaysia is nothing but neo-colo­ belajar chara2 pilehan raya, maka saya nialism. This is proof that Malaysia is rasa kalau kita boleh menempoh nothing but neo-colonialism in respect keadaan yang saperti itu, tidak ada of those States, because this system of sebab mengapa mereka tidak boleh nomination, this system of indirect berbuat demikian. choosing, and all that, occur only 1477 20 AUGUST 1963 1478 under colonial conditions. Full direct Dato' Dr Ismail: Mr Chairman, Sir, adult suffrage is a mark of parlia­ I am not surprised that Honourable mentary democracy. So, we find that Members of the Opposition are suffering even after this so-called independence from mental fatigue, having tried to go for these Bornean territories through through the provisions of this Bill, Malaysia for almost ten years the especially when some of them have not Prime Minister is still proposing to prepared their homework before hand. stick to almost a system of nomination. The question is democracy and It can be said that if it is not direct elections. Now, it is agreed that in a election, it would amount to a system democracy the representatives of the of nomination. Whatever the meaning people are elected and not nominated. of it, it will still not be an election by Sir, I would like to point out to direct elections. So, Mr Chairman, Sir, Honourable Members of the Opposition if this Government wants to show that that—and I think they will agree with it is really democratic, that these me—America is one of the democracies countries are going to get genuine as we understand it. independence, this provision should be struck off from this Bill: otherwise, it Enche' Lim Kean Siew: I do not is nothing but a continuation of the old agree with you. colonial status of those territories Dato' Dr Ismail: If you do not through Malaysia, that even in Malay­ agree, then probably your concept of sia they still do not come to a stage of democracy may be the peoples' demo­ full democratic rights exercised on the cracy of the Soviet Union. If you basis of adult suffrage. Thus, Mr Chair­ believe in that kind of democracy, man, Sir, we have the overall picture then you should expound it to the of, for instance, the Federation of electorate of this country, but I think Malaya and Singapore having direct that the people of this country really elections but these Bornean territories believe in democracy in the democratic not having them. This is a contradic­ sense of the word. tion, and this contradiction goes against democracy fundamentally. In America, with regard to the President of the United States of Mr Chairman, Sir, I would say that America, the candidates for office of this mentality of having nominated President are really elected by indirect people, almost nominated people, to elections: there are what you call the House of Representatives could conventions and they are financed by invalidate the character of the House the Government of the United States of of Representatives as a house of America. What happens in these representatives. It will no longer be a conventions is that people from the pure house of representatives. Its purity States elect their representatives .... will be defiled by a system of nomina­ Enche' K. Karam Singh: Mr Chair­ tion. All I can say is that it is high time man, Sir, Standing Order 36 (1) .... that the Alliance Cabinet, which is pre­ tending to be the champion of freedom Tuan Syed Ja'afar bin Hasan Albar in these countries, it is high time that (Johor Tenggara): Boo! this so-called anti-colonial leaders in the Enche' K. Karam Singh: Sir, has the Alliance Cabinet got rid of these Member for Johor Tenggara the right colonial superstitions, colonial political to boo at me? Sir, the Minister is superstitions, from their minds, because irrelevant because ours is not a pre­ this system of nomination is a colonial sidential system of government. So, in superstition, a colonial political supersti­ introducing reference to America which tion—in our bahasa kebangsaan has a presidential system of govern­ "keperchayaan kolot"—which is in­ ment, he is utterly wrong and utterly consistent with democracy and freedom. irrelevant; it only serves to confuse the So, I would ask the Alliance Govern­ issue. Unless the Minister is proposing ment to delete this and substitute to advocate for this country a presi­ undiluted democracy in place of the dential system of government, his colonial provision. remarks would be out of order. 1479 20 AUGUST 1963 1480 Dato' Dr Ismail: Sir, I am just Enche' Lim Kean Siew: I am rising giving an example of what a democracy under Standing Order 36 (1). ~ does; there you can have direct and Mr Chairman: I have given my indirect elections. In a democratic ruling just now that he is relevant-and country you can have ...... he has the right to explain that one. Enche' K. Karam Singh: Mr Chair­ Dato' Dr Ismail: As I was saying, man, Sir, Standing Order 36 (1). Sir, in democratic America the election Dato' Dr Ismail: Sir, may I have of the President, in the primaries, it is your ruling as to whether I am relevant done by indirect elections. So, indirect or not? election is not inconsistent with the concept of democracy. To go further, Enche' K. Karam Singh: Sir, even in the election of the President of Standing Order 36 (1) says: the United Nations Assembly, it is done "A member shall confine his observations by indirect election, because the Presi­ to the subject under discussion and may not introduce matter irrelevant thereto." dent of the Assembly is elected by member countries, and the Government ,• My submission is that the American in power in every country send their elections in respect of the office of the representatives there who elect the President is utterly irrelevant to the President of the Assembly. I think Malaysian Constitution. Malaysia has there is no better example. Even if as its Head of State the Yang di-Per­ Honourable Members of the Socialist tuan Agong. Sir, I would ask for your Front, who draw their inspiration from ruling that reference to the American some type of democracy, I think they system of presidential elections be cannot say that the United Nations is declared irrelevant to this debate. not a good example of a democratic institution-and there we have indirect Mr Chairman: It is relevant: it is elections. There is nothing mentioned only given as an example. in this case here about nomination, Dato' Dr Ismail: Thank you, Sir. and I submit that indirect election is as As I was saying, in one of the great good as direct election. It depends on democracies, the election of the Presi­ the country as to what type of election dent is done by indirect elections. is adopted. Enche' Lim Kean Siew: Mr Chair­ Enche' Lim Kean Siew: Mr Chair­ man, Sir, on a point of order-Standing man, Sir, as a matter of fact, I had not Order 36 (1): I am afraid that it intended to speak on this section, but cannot be called an example. we cannot allow the Honourable Minister of Internal Security to mislead Dato' Dr Ismail: Mr Chairman, Sir, the House and the public at large. He you have ruled me as relevant. So, I do was referring to the presidential elec­ not think Standing Order 36 (1) applies. tions relating to presidents. Mr Chair­ Enche' Lim Kean Siew: Mr Speaker, man, Sir, I bow to your ruling, but I Sir, .... think the debate would have been cut short if he had been ruled irrelevant. Mr Chairman: Sit down. I have Surely, representatives to be elected given my ruling just now that it is only under Qause 94 cannot be in anyway an example. related to the election of the President Enche' Lim Kean Siew: Mr Chair­ of the United States, nor can such man, Sir, I was rising on a point of representatives be in any way identified order-Standing Order 36 (I): you with the President of the United must hear me; you cannot ask me to Nations which has no executive and sit down without hearing my complaint. legal powers over any particular State. Enche' Tao Siew Sin: Mr Chairman, Mr Chairman, Sir, if the Honourable Sir, on a point of order-I suggest that Minister of Interior had been more the Honourable Member for Dato honest and had admitted that we cannot Kramat is downright discourteous to have direct elections because the people the Chair. (Interruption). are not yet ready, and that we must 1481 20 AUGUST 1963 1482 have indirect representation for the next that this form of indirect election is a few years, and had he put the position guided democracy as had been charged clearly before the country, we would by the Honourable Members of the have no quarrel with him. But to argue Opposition bench. He tries to prove round the point and to say that indirect that even in America, a country well­ election is equal to and is as good as known for its democratic principle, direct election is patently to put there are indirect elections, and so what forward a false case before the public. is wrong with indirect elections in the Nowhere in the world, when we deal case of Borneo. It is provided under with elections on the American pattern, Clause 94 (2) that with the concurrence has representatives been elected by of the Governor of a State, the Yang indirect elections. Presidential elections di-Pertuan Agong may by order direct of the United States of America are that there can be elections earlier than entirely different from elections to the the second dissolution of the House. It House of Representatives, and the is for Members of this House, once the Senate of the United States of America. representatives from the Bomean They are all by direct elections. As for territories are with us, to guide them the question of the indirectness of the along the right lines-and, perhaps, out -. presidential elections, we must not of their own choice and their own forget that the representatives of the desire, they may be as fully representa­ States, who go into the National Con­ tive as we are in this House. The only ventions, are directly elected by the thing we are asking this House to do people and they themselves cast their is to bear with these people, who for votes as representatives. Here, indirect the first time have known elections and elections to the House of Representa­ the only means of returning them to tives do not mean definitely that the this House is through iadirect elec­ elected members will elect their own tions-and by indirect elections it members. Elected members together means that they will be elected by all with Government appointees may the people, the registered voters, in the nominate representatives, what we are territories of Borneo. Mixed with these asking for is a definition of the term people are a few nominated members, indirect representation in this context. who have been nominated by the We are not asking for anything difficult. Governor himself. But, to try and force We want it recorded in this House so them now, before they can get their that when we bring up the question of seat in this House, to stand on an equal indirect elections again, at least we will footing with us here who have had so have had the definition of this phrase. many years of experience of democratic But, by deliberately misleading this elections is not fair. We have got to House and saying it is equivalent to give them a little time to study and to the presidential elections of America know how democracy works. If we can is absurd, because not one of the give them a good example, guidance representatives of the Bomean States and advice, I have no doubt that they will have the power of the President of can pick up as fast as we did ourselves. the United States of America, and certainly the President of the U.S.A. Enche' Lim Kean Siew: Mr Chair­ is bound by the Senate and the House, man, Sir, I am very glad that the whereas here the representatives who Honourable Prime Minister had seen it are indirectly elected will themselves fit to put the position clearly before this partake in the passing of laws as House. If have to admit that this is Members of the House of Representa­ guided democracy, let us not accuse tives. In America the position is anybody else of that point. The other entirely different. As for the United point I would like the Honourable Nations Assembly, let us not stretch Minister to explain is this : the proviso the absurdity to the point of ridiculous­ says, "With the concurrence of the ness. Governor of a State"-it does not say The Prime Minister: Mr Chairman, the Governor-in-Council-so I wonder Sir, what the Honourable Minister was if the Governor here is taking the trying to do was to refute the charge advice of the Executive Council. 1483 20 AUGUST 1963 1484 Enche' K. Karam Singh: Mr Chair­ it is misguided democracy. That is all man, Sir, from the explanation of the I have to say. Honourable Prime Minister, it is Clauses 91 to 96 inclusive ordered to obvious that he has accepted that the stand part of the Bill. Honourable Minister of Interior was not talking logic (Laughter) when he Schedules 1 to 6 inclusive ordered to tried to connect two disjointed mat­ stand part of the Bill. ters—for instance, the colonial system of nomination to the American presi­ Preamble dential elections. Now, Mr Chairman, Enche' K. Karam Singh: Mr Chair­ Sir, no matter how high precedents the man, Sir, I was speaking on the Minister of Interior may try to quote, preamble and then we decided to go on or whatever authority he may try to to the cart. Now we are back on the refer to, he cannot hide the fact that horse. As I was saying, in this pre­ what is happening is nothing but a amble, which is the premise of this denial of democracy—not a practice of Act, there is a fundamental defect, democracy, but a denial of democracy. because, although in the first part it And, he is appearing in his representa­ says "on behalf of the Federation it tive role for the Alliance as a bare­ has been agreed" and secondly "the faced apologist for colonialism. Mr Conference of Rulers has consented", Chairman, Sir, if the Minister of Inte­ nowhere is there mention made in this rior believes so much in having these preamble that North Borneo and indirect elections and says that America Sarawak have also consented and is even having it, why not have the agreed. Mr Chairman, Sir, I will show entire Parliament by indirect elec­ that the Alliance Government has not tions—if he believes so much in that dared to put into the preamble the principle? Why is he himself here on agreement by North Borneo and direct elections? Let him get out and Sarawak to enter into this Federation come back by indirect elections. That of Malaysia because they have not got shows the absurdity of his position. a proper agreement. Had there been a What is he practising and what is he proper agreement they would have put preaching? it into this preamble. Further the fact Enche' Ibrahim bin Abdul Rahman that there will be no directly elected (Seberang Tengah): On a point of order representatives in the Malaysian Parlia­ under Standing Order 44 (1), the ment from the Bornean territories even Honourable Member is making the after Malaysia Day, according to most tedious repetitions I have ever Clause 94, shows that even after Malay­ heard in my four years as a member of sia there will be no democratic repre­ this House. He is repeating again and sentatives of the North Bornean States. again. Mr Chairman, Sir, I would mention Mr Chairman: That is all right. another fact. On behalf of North Proceed. Borneo and Sarawak certain people Enche' K. Karam Singh: I was just signed the Malaysia Agreement in pointing out to this House that if this London. Among them was a person Minister—and this backbencher sup­ supposed to be the Chief Minister- ports this Minister in his twisted designate. logic—believes so strongly in the Mr Chairman: Order, order. Will principle and justice of this backward, you confine your observation to this this throw-back to a colonial system, preamble only—there are four para­ then why is he in this House on direct graphs there; that is all. I cannot allow elections? I would welcome the state­ you to make any observation outside ment of that Minister, because it this preamble. exposes the Alliance Government as apologists for imperialism and colo­ Enche' K. Karam Singh: I am saying nialism. And if these people continue that there is a fundamental defect in with this, then all I can say is that this preamble. That is my contention, it is worse than guided democracy; Sir. I am dealing with the defect. So, 1485 20 AUGUST 1963 1486 we have a so-called Chief Minister- on behalf of the Federation Govern­ designate signing that agreement. Now, ment. That is clear, Sir. The Agreement neither a President-elect nor a Presi­ is an accepted document as everyone dent-designate or a Chief Minister- knows. It is tabled in this House and it designate has any legal standing in any is a public property now. Everybody Constitution. knows that there has been an agree­ ment. Mr Chairman: It has no connection with this preamble. I don't see any The preamble ordered to stand as connection at all. the preamble of the Bill. Enche' K. Karam Singh: So, I Tun Haji Abdul Razak: Mr Chair­ would submit that there has been no man, Sir, I beg to move that the Bill proper agreement by the Bornean be now reported back to the House. territories to this Agreement, and because of that, as a historical fact, Question put, and agreed to. this Agreement would fail because it has not the democratic support of the House resumes. people of the Bornean territories, and this Bill dares not state that it has Third Reading the democratic assent of those people. Tun Haji Abdul Razak: Mr Speaker, That is all. Sir, I beg to report that the Bill has Tun Haji Abdul Razak: I have said been considered in Committee and many a time, and this is the last time agreed to with amendment. I accord­ I am going to say it. We have debated ingly move that it be read a third time the Agreement signed in London and it and passed. is clear that the representatives of the Enche' Tan Siew Sin: Sir, I beg to Bornean territories and Singapore have second the motion. agreed to this Constitution being embodied in this Bill. And this is an Question put, and agreed to. amendment to our Constitution and Tun Haji Abdul Razak: I call for a there is no necessity to mention about division, Sir. the parties to that Agreement. That is a separate matter, and the preamble The House divided: Ayes 73; Noes needs only say that it has been agreed 15; Abstentions Nil. {Applause).

AYES

Tunku Abdul Rahman Putra Enche' Abdul Rauf bin Enche' Hussein bin To' Muda AI-Haj A. Rahman Hassan Tun Haji Abdul Razak bin Enche' Abdul Razak bin Haji Enche' Hussein bin Mohd. Dato' Hussain Husin Nordin Dato' Dr Ismail bin Dato' Haji Enche' Abdul Samad bin Osman Enche' Ibrahim bin Abdul Abdul Rahman Toh Muda Haji Abdullah bin Rahman Enche' Tan Siew Sin Haji Abdul Raof Enche' Ismail bin Idris Dato' V. T. Sambanthan Tuan Haji Abdullah bin Mohd. Enche' Ismail bin Haji Kassim Salleh Dato' Suleiman bin Dato' Haji Enche' Kang Kok Seng Abdul Rahman Enche' Ahmad bin Arshad Enche* Lee San Choon Dato' Haji Sardon bin Haji Jubir Enche' Ahmad bin Mohamed Shah Enche' Lee Seek Fun Dato' Ong Yoke Lin Enche' Lee Siok Yew Enche' Mohamed Khir bin Johari Tuan Haji Ahmad bin Saaid Enche' Bahaman bin Samsudin Enche' Ahmad bin Haji Yusof Enche' Lim Joo Kong Tuan Haji Azahari bin Haji Enche' T. Mahima Singh Enche' Abdul Rahman bin Haji Ibrahim Talib Enche' Mohamed bin Ujang Enche' Aziz bin Ishak Dr Lim Swee Aun Enche' Mohamed Abbas bin Capt. Haji Abdul Hamid Khan Enche' Chan Chong Wen Ahmad bin Haji Sakhawat Ali Khan Enche' Chan Siang Sun Enche' Mohamed Nor bin Mohd. Enche' Cheah Theam Swee Datin Fatimah binti Haji Hashim Dahan Enche' V. Manickavasagam Enche' Geh Chong Keat Enche' Mohamed Yusof bin Mahmud Tuan Haji Abdul Khalid bin Enche' Hamzah bin Alang Awang Osman Tuan Haji Mokhtar bin Haji Enche' Hanafi bin Mohd. Yunus Enche' Mohamed Ismail bin Ismail Mohamed Yusof Enche' Harun bin Abdullah Tuan Haji Othman bin Abdullah Enche' Abdul Ghani bin Ishak Enche' Hassan bin Mansor Enche' Othman bin Abdullah 1487 20 AUGUST 1963 1488

Enche' Quek Kai Dong Enche' Tajudin bin Ali Wan Yahya bin Haji Wan Mohamed Tuan Haji Redza bin Haji Mohd. Enche' Tan Cheng Bee Said Enche' Yahya bin Haji Ahmad Enche' Tan Tye Chek Enche* Seah Teng Ngiab Enche' Yeoh Tat Beng Tuan Syed Esa bin Alwee Tengku Besar Indra Raja ibni Sultan Ibrahim Enche' Yong Woo Ming Tuan Syed Hashim bin Syed Puan Hajjah Zain binti Sulaiman Ajam Dato* Teoh Chze Chong Tuan Haji Zakaria bin Haji Tnan Syed Ja'afar bin Hasan Wan Suleiman bin Wan Tam Mohd. Taib Albar NOES Tuan Haji Ahmad bin Abdullah Enche' K. Karam Singh Enche' Ng Ann Teck Dr Burhanuddin bin Mohd. Noor Enche' Lim Kean Siew Enche' Tan Phock Kin Tuan Haji Hasan Adli bin Haji Enche' Too Joon Hing Arshad Enche' Liu Yoong Peng Tuan Haji Hassan bin Haji Enche' Mohamed Asri bin Haji Enche' V. Veerappen Muda Ahmad Enche' Zulkiflee bin Muhammad Tuan Haji Hussin Rahimi bin Dato' Mohamed Hanifah bin Haji Saman Haji Abdul Ghani

ABSTENTIONS Nil Bill accordingly read the third time Adjourned at 11.25 p.m. and passed.