Volume I Wednesday No. 37 16th December, 1964

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES

DEWAN RA'AYAT (HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES)

OFFICIAL REPORT

FIRST SESSION OF THE SECOND PARLIAMENT OF MALAYSIA

CONTENTS

THE SUPPLY BILL, 1965: Schedule— Head S. 21 (Debates on Amendment proposed) [Col. 4722] Heads S. 21 and S. 22 [Col. 4785] Heads S. 23 to S. 31 [Col. 4801] ADJOURNMENT (Motion) [Col. 4826]

DI-CHETAK DI-JABATAN CHETAK KERAJAAN OLEH THOR BENG CHONG, A.M.N., PENCHETAK KERAJAAN, KUALA LUMPUR 1966 MALAYSIA DEWAN RA'AYAT (HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES) Official Report

First Session of the Second Dewan Ra'ayat

Wednesday, 16th December, 1964 The House met at Ten o'clock a.m. PRESENT: The Honourable Mr Speaker, DATO' CHIK MOHAMED YUSUF BIN SHEIKH ABDUL RAHMAN, S.P.M.P., J.P., Dato' Bendahara, Perak. „ the Prime Minister, Minister of External Affairs and Minister of Culture, Youth and Sports, Y.T.M. TUNKU ABDUL RAHMAN PUTRA AL-HAJ, K.O.M. (Kuala Kedah). the Minister of Finance, ENCHE' TAN SIEW SIN, J.P. (Melaka Tengah). „ the Minister of Works, Posts and Telecommunications, DATO' V. T. SAMBANTHAN, P.M.N. (Sungei Siput). „ the Minister of Transport, DATO' HAJI SARDON BIN HAJI JUBIR, P.M.N. (Pontian Utara). the Minister of Health, ENCHE' BAHAMAN BIN SAMSUDIN (Kuala Pilah). „ the Minister for Welfare Services, TUAN HAJI ABDUL HAMID KHAN BIN HAJI SAKHAWAT ALI KHAN, J.M.N., J.P. (Batang Padang). „ the Minister for Sarawak Affairs, DATO' TEMENGGONG JUGAH ANAK BARIENG, P.M.N., P.D.K. (Sarawak). „ the Minister of Labour, ENCHE' V. MANICKAVASAGAM, J.M.N., P.J.K. (Klang). „ the Minister of Information and Broadcasting, ENCHE' SENU BIN ABDUL RAHMAN (Kubang Pasu Barat). „ the Minister of Lands and Mines, ENCHE' MOHAMED GHAZALI BIN HAJI JAWI (Ulu Perak). „ the Assistant Minister of Commerce and Industry, TUAN HAJI ABDUL KHALID BIN AWANG OSMAN (Kota Star Utara). the Assistant Minister of National and Rural Development and Assistant Minister of Justice, ENCHE' ABDUL-RAHMAN BIN YA'KUB (Sarawak). „ the Assistant Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives, ENCHE' SULAIMAN BIN BULON (Bagan Datoh). the Assistant Minister of Culture, Youth and Sports, ENGKU MUHSEIN BIN ABDUL KADIR, J.M.N., S.M.T., P.J.K. (Trengganu Tengah). 4715 16 DECEMBER 1964 4716

The Honourable the Assistant Minister of Education, ENCHE' LEE SIOK YEW, A.M.N., PJ.K. (Sepang). ENCHE' ABDUL GHANI BIN ISHAK, A.M.N. (Melaka Utara). ENCHE' ABDUL KARIM BIN ABU, A.M.N. (Melaka Selatan). WAN ABDUL KADIR BIN ISMAIL, P.P.T. (Kuala Trengganu Utara). ENCHE' ABDUL RAHIM ISHAK (Singapore). ENCHE' ABDUL RAUF BIN A. RAHMAN, K.M.N., P.J.K. (Krian Laut). ENCHE' ABDUL RAZAK BIN HAJI HUSSIN (Lipis). ENCHE' ABDUL SAMAD BIN GUL AHMAD MIANJI (Pasir Mas Hulu). Y.A.M. TUNKU ABDULLAH IBNI AL-MARHUM TUANKU ABDUL RAHMAN, P.P.T. (Rawang). TUAN HAJI ABDULLAH BIN HAJI MOHD. SALLEH, A.M.N., S.M.J., P.I.S. (Segamat Utara). ENCHE' ABU BAKAR BIN HAMZAH (Bachok). TUAN HAJI AHMAD BIN ABDULLAH (Kelantan Hilir). ENCHE' AHMAD BIN ARSHAD, A.M.N. (Muar Utara). TUAN HAJI AHMAD BIN SAAID, J.P. (Seberang Utara). CHE' AJIBAH BINTI ABOL (Sarawak). ENCHE' ALI BIN HAJI AHMAD (Pontian Selatan). „ ENCHE' AZIZ BIN ISHAK (Muar Dalam). ENCHE' JONATHAN BANGAU ANAK RENANG, A.B.S. (Sarawak). PENGARAH BANYANG ANAK JANTING, P.B.S. (Sarawak). ENCHE' CHAN SEONG YOON (Setapak). ENCHE' CHAN SIANG SUN (Bentong). ENCHE' CHIN FOON (Ulu Kinta). ENCHE' C. V. DEVAN NAIR (Bungsar). ENCHE' EDWIN ANAK TANGKUN (Sarawak). DATIN FATIMAH BINTI HAJI ABDUL MAJID (Johore Bahru Timor). DATIN FATIMAH BINTI HAJI HASHIM, P.M.N. (Jitra-Padang Terap). ENCHE' GEH CHONG KEAT, K.M.N. (Penang Utara). DR GOH KENG SWEE (Singapore). ENCHE' HAMZAH BIN ALANG, A.M.N., P.J.K. (Kapar). ENCHE' HANAFI BIN MOHD. YUNUS, A.M.N., J.P. (Kulim Utara). ENCHE' HANAFIAH BIN HUSSAIN, A.M.N. (Jerai). ENCHE' HARUN BIN ABDULLAH, A.M.N. (Baling). WAN HASSAN BIN WAN DAUD (Tumpat). ENCHE' HUSSEIN BIN TO' MUDA HASSAN, A.M.N. (Raub). ENCHE' HUSSEIN BIN MOHD. NOORDIN, A.M.N., P.J.K. (Parit). „ ENCHE' HUSSEIN BIN SULAIMAN (Ulu Kelantan). TUAN HAJI HUSSAIN RAHIMI BIN HAJI SAMAN (Kota Bharu Hulu). 4717 16 DECEMBER 1964 4718

The Honourable ENCHE' IKHWAN ZAINI (Sarawak). ENCHE' IBRAHIM BIN ABDUL RAHMAN (Seberang Tengah). ENCHE' ISMAIL BIN IDRIS (Penang Selatan). ENCHE' JEK YEUN THONG (Singapore). PENGHULU JINGGUT ANAK ATTAN, Q.M.C. (Sarawak). ENCHE' KADAM ANAK KIAI (Sarawak). ENCHE' KAM WOON WAH, J.P. (Sitiawan). ENCHE' EDMUND LANGGU ANAK SAGA (Sarawak). ENCHE' LEE KUAN YEW (Singapore). ENCHE' LEE SAN CHOON, K.M.N. (Segamat Selatan). ENCHE' LEE SECK FUN (Tanjong Malim). ENCHE' LIM HUAN BOON (Singapore). DATO' LIM KIM SAN, D.U.T., D.J.M.K. (Singapore). ENCHE' LIM PEE HUNG, P.J.K. (Alor Star). DR MAHATHIR BIN MOHAMAD (Kota Star Selatan). ENCHE' T. MAHIMA SINGH, J.P. (Port Dickson). DATO' DR HAJI MEGAT KHAS, D.P.M.P., J.P., P.J.K. (Kuala Kangsar). ENCHE' MOHD. DAUD BIN ABDUL SAMAD (Besut). ENCHE' MOHAMED IDRIS BIN MATSIL, J.M.N., P.J.K., J.P. (Jelebu-Jempol). ENCHE' MOHD. TAHIR BIN ABDUL MAJID, S.M.S., P.J.K. (Kuala Langat). ENCHE' MOHAMED YUSOF BIN MAHMUD, A.M.N. (Temerloh). ENCHE' MOHD. ZAHIR BIN HAJI ISMAIL, J.M.N. (Sungai Patani). WAN MOKHTAR BIN AHMAD (Kemaman). TUAN HAJI MOKHTAR BIN HAJI ISMAIL (Perlis Selatan). ENCHE' MUHAMMAD FAKHRUDDIN BIN HAJI ABDULLAH (Pasir Mas Hilir). TUAN HAJI MUHAMMAD SU'AUT BIN HAJI MUHD. TAHIR, A.B.S. (Sarawak). DATO' HAJI MUSTAPHA BIN HAJI ABDUL JABAR, D.P.M.S., A.M.N., J.P. (Sabak Bernam). ENCHE' MUSTAPHA BIN AHMAD (Tanah Merah). DATO' NIK AHMAD KAMIL, D.K., S.P.M.K., S.J.M.K., P.M.N., P.Y.G.P., Dato' Sri Setia Raja (Kota Bharu Hilir). ENCHE' NG FAH YAM (Batu Gajah). DR NG KAM POH, J.P. (Telok Anson). ENCHE' ONG KEE HUI (Sarawak). ENCHE' ONG PANG BOON (Singapore). TUAN HAJI OTHMAN BIN ABDULLAH (Hilir Perak). ENCHE' OTHMAN BIN ABDULLAH, A.M.N. (Perlis Utara). ABANG OTHMAN BIN HAJI MOASILI, P.B.S. (Sarawak). ENCHE' QUEK KAI DONG, J.P. (Seremban Timor). ENCHE' S. RAJARATNAM (Singapore). 4719 16 DECEMBER 1964 4720

The Honourable TUAN HAJI RAHMAT BIN HAJI DAUD, A.M.N. (Johore Bahru Barat). ENCHE' RAMLI BIN OMAR (Krian Darat). „ TUAN HAJI REDZA BIN HAJI MOHD. SAID, P.J.K., J.P. (Rembau-Tampin). RAJA ROME BIN RAJA MA'AMOR, P.J.K., J.P. (Kuala Selangor). „ ENCHE' SANDOM ANAK NYUAK (Sarawak). ENCHE' SEAH TENG NGIAB, P.I.S. (Muar Pantai). ENCHE' S. P. SEENIVASAGAM (Menglembu). „ ENCHE' SIOW LOONG HIN, P.J.K. (Seremban Barat). „ ENCHE' SNAWI BIN ISMAIL, P.J.K. (Seberang Selatan). ENCHE' SNG CHIN JOO (Sarawak). ENCHE' SOH AH TECK (Batu Pahat). ENCHE' SULEIMAN BIN ALI (Dungun). ENCHE' TAJUDIN BIN ALI, P.J.K. (Larut Utara). ENCHE' TAI KUAN YANG (Kulim-Bandar Bharu). ENCHE' TAMA WENG TINGGANG WAN (Sarawak). DR TAN CHEE KHOON (Batu). ENCHE' TAN CHENG BEE, J.P. (Bagan). ENCHE' TAN TOH HONG (Bukit Bintang). ENCHE' TAN TSAK YU (Sarawak). ENCHE' TIAH ENG BEE (Kluang Utara). PENGHULU FRANCIS UMPAU ANAK EMPAM (Sarawak). ENCHE' YEOH TAT BENG (Bruas). ENCHE' YONG NYUK LIN (Singapore). TUAN HAJI ZAKARIA BIN HAJI MOHD. TAIB, P.J.K. (Langat).

ABSENT: The Honourable the Deputy Prime Minister, Minister of Defence, Minister of National and Rural Development, TUN HAJI ABDUL RAZAK BIN DATO' HUSSAIN, S.M.N. (Pekan). „ the Minister of Home Affairs and Minister of Justice, DATO' DR ISMAIL BIN DATO' HAJI ABDUL RAHMAN, P.M.N. (Johor Timor). „ the Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives, ENCHE' MOHAMED KHIR JOHARI (Kedah Tengah). the Minister of Commerce and Industry, DR LIM SWEE AUN, J.P. (Larut Selatan). „ the Minister for Local Government and Housing, ENCHE' KHAW KAI-BOH, P.J.K. (Ulu Selangor). the Minister without Portfolio, ENCHE' PETER LO SU YIN (Sabah). „ WAN ABDUL RAHMAN BIN DATU TUANKU BUJANG (Sarawak). „ ENCHE' ABDUL RAHMAN BIN HAJI TALIB, P.J.K. (Kuantan). „ TUAN HAJI ABDUL RASHID BIN HAJI JAIS (Sabah). „ DATO' ABDULLAH BIN ABDULRAHMAN, Dato' Bijaya di-Raja (Kuala Trengganu Selatan). 4721 16 DECEMBER 1964 4722

The Honourable O. K. K. DATU ALIUDDIN BIN DATU HARUN, P.D.K. (Sabah). DR AWANG BIN HASSAN, S.M.J. (Muar Selatan). ENCHE' E. W. BARKER (Singapore). ENCHE' CHAN CHONG WEN, A.M.N. (Kluang Selatan). ENCHE' CHEN WING SUM (Damansara). ENCHE' CHIA CHIN SHIN, A.B.S. (Sarawak). „ ENCHE' FRANCIS CHIA NYUK TONG (Sabah). ENCHE' CHIA THYE POH (Singapore). TUAN SYED ESA BIN ALWEE, J.M.N., S.M.J., P.I.S. (Batu Pahat Dalam). ENCHE' S. FAZUL RAHMAN, A.D.K. (Sabah). DATU GANIE GILONG, P.D.K., J.P. (Sabah). ENCHE' GANING BIN JANGKAT (Sabah). ENCHE' STANLEY HO NYUN KHIU, A.D.K. (Sabah). DATO' SYED JA'AFAR BIN HASAN ALBAR, P.M.N. (Johor Tenggara). ENCHE' KHOO PENG LOONG (Sarawak). DATO' KHOO SIAK CHIEW, P.D.K. (Sabah). ENCHE' KOW KEE SENG (Singapore). ENCHE' AMADEUS MATHEW LEONG, A.D.K., J.P. (Sabah). DATO' LING BENG SIEW, P.N.B.S. (Sarawak). DR LIM CHONG EU (Tanjong). ENCHE' LIM KEAN SIEW (Dato Kramat). ENCHE' JOSEPH DAVID MANJAJI (Sabah). ENCHE' MOHD. ARIF SALLEH, A.D.K. (Sabah). ENCHE' MOHAMED ASRI BIN HAJI MUDA, P.M.K. (Pasir Puteh). ORANG TUA MOHAMMAD DARA BIN LANGPAD (Sabah). ENCHE' OTHMAN BIN WOK (Singapore). ENCHE' D. R. SEENIVASAGAM (Ipoh). ENCHE' SIM BOON LIANG (Sarawak). DATU DONALD ALOYSIUS STEPHENS, P.D.K. (Sabah). PENGIRAN TAHIR PETRA (Sabah). ENCHE' TAN KEE GAK (Bandar Melaka). DR TOH CHIN CHYE (Singapore). ENCHE' TOH THEAM HOCK (Kampar). ENCHE' WEE TOON BOON (Singapore). ENCHE' YEH PAO TZE (Sabah). „ ENCHE' STEPHEN YONG KUET TZE (Sarawak).

PRAYERS House immediately resolved itself into Committee of Supply. (Mr Speaker in the Chair) (Mr Speaker in the Chair) SCHEDULE BILL Head S. 21— THE SUPPLY BILL, 1965 Resumption of debate on amendment proposed— Order read for resumed consideration That the sum to be allocated for Head in Committee of Supply (Eleventh S. 21 be reduced by $1 in respect of Item (1) Allotted Day). of Sub-head 1 (Dr Tan Chee Khoon). 4723 16 DECEMBER 1964 4724

The Deputy Prime Minister (Tun have been distrust and disfavour by Haji Abdul Razak): Mr Chairman, Sir, the Afro-Asian nations. This statement, I only wish to reply to a few points Sir, again is quite untrue. I have just raised by the Honourable Member for come back, as Honourable Members Batu in his amendment in respect of are aware, from a visit to the North our foreign policy. The Honourable African countries and I was very Prime Minister will reply fully to him touched by the warmth of welcome and to other Honourable Members and extended to me and my delegation by will also make a statement on our the leaders of all the four countries I foreign policy. visited—the United Arab Republic, First, Sir, I would like to explain Algeria, Tunisia and Morocco. They our position regarding debates on all went out of their way to make our matters of government policy. The stay in their countries pleasant and the Honourable Member for Batu has leaders of those countries, President alleged that we have not given full Nasser, President Ahmad Ben Bella, opportunities for a full-scale debate on etc., listened to what I had to say fully foreign policy in this House. Well, Sir, and gave a fair hearing to our explana­ our practice has been that every year, tion of the situation in South-East Asia. twice a year, Honourable Members of Indeed, the leaders of all these four this House have had full opportunity countries have shown understanding of to debate on all aspects of government our position. So, it is quite untrue to policy: once at the beginning of each say that the Afro-Asian nations showed session, in April, when His Majesty distrust and disfavour to our country. delivers the Royal Address the House As Honourable Members know, the is always given opportunity to debate First Afro-Asian Conference was fully on government policy, and again initiated by Indonesia and was held in at the Budget session when there is Bandoeng. At the meeting of the Pre­ always ample opportunity for Members paratory Committee it was stated quite of the Opposition, in particular, to clearly, and it was agreed, that Malay­ debate, criticise and discuss government sia should be invited to attend this policy. It is true that we have not had a Afro-Asian Conference as soon as special debate on foreign policy in possible. general, but there has not been any Dr Tan Chee Khoon: Mr Chairman, major change in our foreign policy. Sir, on a point of clarification—Malay­ When there is a matter of importance, sia at that time was yet to be born. such as Confrontation and the Procla­ mation of Emergency, we always take Tun Haji Abdul Razak: Well, I am the opportunity to make a statement not sure of the date, but I have got a to this House and give the House full copy of the communique here which opportunity to debate on the Govern­ says quite clearly that Malaysia should ment statement. So, we have consis­ be invited as soon as possible. Of tently followed this practice, and I course, the host country, Indonesia, think, it is not right, nor is it fair, to interpreted the communique diffe­ say that the Government has not given rently—Indonesia interpreted it that as Honourable Members of the Opposi­ soon as she recognised Malaysia then tion opportunities to discuss, criticise Malaysia should be invited and that, and debate on Government policy, in I think, is what has happened at the particular on our foreign policy. In First Afro-Asian Conference. fact, we have given full and ample opportunities for Members of the Now, Sir, the next Conference is due to be held in Algeria some time next Opposition to express their views on year, although they have not firmly foreign policy—indeed, on all aspects fixed the date. Most of the Afro-Asian of government policy. nations now understand that, Malaysia Sir, one other matter that I wish to is a sovereign and independent nation; speak on is the allegation made by the and the leaders of the U.A.R. explained Honourable Member for Batu that to me, when I was there, that the Afro- because of our foreign policy there Asian Conference is geographical and 4725 16 DECEMBER 1964 4726 not political, and therefore any inde­ this is exactly what this Treaty does; pendent, sovereign nation in the Afro- that is to say, allow us to request Asian region has a right to attend this Britain, Australia and New Zealand to Conference. So, the position is quite come to our assistance in the event of clear, that whatever differences we have external aggression. Of course, here it with Indonesia, or any other country, does contain the words "in the event of we have a right to attend this Afro- a threat to the preservation of peace Asian Conference, because we are a or outbreak of hostility". But. sovereign, independent nation in the obviously, Sir, in the defence of the Afro-Asian region. Of course, the country, we have got to take defensive matter will be left to the Preparatory measures; we have got to have plans Committee to decide, but, I think, the in case of outbreak of hostility. It is principle is generally accepted by, if not right that only when we are not all, most of the countries in the attacked, only when foreign troops Afro-Asian region with the exception have already landed in our territory, perhaps of Indonesia and a few others. we ask our friends for help. Obviously, So, we have, Sir, done everything pos­ we should have consultation with our sible to put our case and I think, as friends in defence planning in respect I have said, most of these countries in of the event of any threat or outbreak Afro-Asia now7 understand the position of hostilities, and that is why we and there is a standing decision by the have those wordings in Article 8 of the previous Preparatory Committee that Defence Treaty. we should be invited as soon as pos­ sible, and I think it is for the present Now, Sir, I hope that this is clear Preparatory Committee to implement to the Honourable Member and, as that decision and to extend to us the I said, I have tried to explain to our invitation when the time comes. friends in Africa the position of our Defence Treaty with the United King­ Sir, I would just like to say a few dom. We are not the only country that words on the Defence Treaty. The has defence treaties with other coun­ Members of the Opposition, in parti­ tries—there are many countries. I think cular the Member for Batu, have not, most countries now understand that a I think, understood this Defence Treaty small nation, if she is to defend her very clearly. I have explained to this independence and her sovereignty, has House previously that under this the right to have a defence treaty with Defence Treaty with the United King­ another country, a bigger country, to dom, we only agreed that the United defend herself. Indeed, as Honourable Kingdom and other Commonwealth Members know, in face of the present countries, Australia and New Zealand, confrontation by Indonesia, it will not should be allowed to station their be possible for us to defend ourselves troops in Malaya, now in Malaysia— adequately without the assistance of the that is all we agreed, but the deploy­ Commonwealth forces here. We, as I ment of the troops and the use of the have explained in the debate on bases that they are allowed to have Defence, never prepare ourselves for in our country is a matter for us. I war or for defence against external mean that they cannot use these bases aggression; we have only so far except with our agreement, and this is expanded our Armed Forces merely clear under Article 8 of the Agreement. for the maintenance of law and order I think that if the Honourable Mem­ and for close defence of the country. bers will read that Article 8, they will We had to do this in order to preserve, understand that this Defence Treaty, as to save our resources, our money, for I have tried to explain to our friends economic and social development— in Africa, does not in any way pre­ unless, of course, the Honourable judice our sovereignty and our inde­ Member for Batu does not want the pendence. Any independent country has Commonwealth troops to assist us. a right to enter into a defence agree­ Obviously, if we are not assisted, as ment with another country to protect at present in the defence of our country, itself against external aggression, and President Soekarno and his regulars 4727 16 DECEMBER 1964 4728

and irregulars will just march into our Bank of China. Unlike other banks, country. Unless Honourable Members the Bank of China is openly, indis­ prefer that situation rather than defend putably, an organ of the Communist our country against this clear and Government in Peking. Although the downright aggression, this Defence P.A.P. is non-communist, at least Treaty is necessary, and, as I have said, allegedly non-communist, it openly it does not in any way prejudice or tolerates an organ which is, without affect our sovereignty and our inde­ doubt, an organ of the Communist pendence. Government in Peking. I need hardly That is all, Sir, I wish to say in this say that we must accept the P.A.P's debate, and, as I said, the Honourable word that it is non-communist, and Prime Minister will make a full reply presumably that thought has never to the debate. (Applause). entered into their heads. Yet the same party, the P.A.P., castigates the Govern­ The Minister of Finance (Enche' Tan ments of these two countries, South Siew Sin): Mr Chairman, Sir, if I may, Vietnam and South Korea. Whatever I would like to comment on the speech the P.A.P. may think of them, at least made by the Honourable Member from they have been very friendly towards Singapore. Coming from the P.A.P. us; we have very cordial relations with side of the Opposition Benches, if I them; and there is no doubt whatever may say so, it is a very revealing that these two Governments are very speech. As we all know, the P.A.P. is much on the side of Malaysia. But the supposed to be non-communist, or it P.A.P. which is non-communist and calls itself non-communist and pro- pro-Malaysia, on the other hand, by a Malaysia, among other things. Now, the strange twist of logic, tolerates an Honourable Member from Singapore organ of the Chinese Communist in, a very revealing speech, in the Government in Singapore; and, in fact, course of his speech, delivered a rather it is rather worried that the Central blistering attack, in what we on this Government, on the assumption of side of the House thought was bad certain powers, may close down this taste, on a number of countries, two of Bank. That, Sir, is a measure of what which have missions in this country. non-communism in the P.A.P. system In other words, the Honourable Mem­ of dialectics means. ber attacked the regimes which are now ruling South Vietnam and South I feel, Sir, that the P.A.P. could do Korea. Of course, everybody in this a service to itself and to the people in country is entitled to his own opinion this country, if it really defines what as to whether a particular regime is it means by "non-communism" and desirable or not desirable for the "pro-Malaysia". Do those terms mean people of the country. But I would that when it suits the P.A.P., it is suggest to the Honourable Member pro-Malaysia, when it does not suit that that is a judgment which should them, it is non-communist, or do they be passed not by him but by the mean something else? people of the countries concerned As I was listening to the speech of (Applause). That, Sir, however, is not the Honourable Member from Singa­ the point of my speech. As I said pre­ pore—and if, for example, I did not viously, the P.A.P. is supposed to be know that he was a member from a non-communist and pro-Malaysia, party which is regarded as non- Now, we also know, and I am sure the communist—that speech could well Honourable Members from the P.A.P. have been uttered by someone, who is benches read the newspapers, that the rather sympathetic towards commu­ Foreign Minister of China was lately nism. If I may say so, Sir, that speech in Jakarta, and I think it does not need had a very familiar ring. We have very much perspicacity to guess what heard that speech before; it was from was the mission of the Chinese Foreign another quarter; and, as my Honour­ Minister in Jakarta. We also know able friend the Minister of Internal that there is an organ of the Chinese Security has said, one almost felt that Government in Singapore, namely, the that was a replay of a very familiar 4729 16 DECEMBER 1964 4730 gramophone record. Those of us who I stand to be corrected. Sir, I should listen to gramophones have heard like to inform the House that during something called "His Master's Voice" my three years—not exactly three (Laughter), and although it might have years, I only refer to three years—of been a coincidence, the fact that my service as Ambassador for Malaya gramophone records are sometimes in Washington and Permanent Repre­ made by an organisation called "His sentative in the United Nations, I had Master's Voice" cannot be applied to been fed from time to time with records the speech from the P.A.P. benches. of debates in this House together with other instructions, which must certainly Dato' Nik Ahmad Kamil (Kota mean that this House must have been Bharu Hilir): Mr Chairman, Sir, I am given the opportunity to debate this prompted to rise to participate in this country's foreign policy. Perhaps, the debate, if only to assist the House Honourable Member for Batu, being a with certain of my thoughts in regard newly elected Member of the House, to the matter under review, which has may not have been aware of this. For now escalated into a debate on the that matter, I am myself a very junior foreign policy of this Government, Member of this House, but because of from my own experience and knowledge my special position as an ex-officer of as a humble servant of this Govern­ the Foreign Service and because of my ment when I was serving abroad in interest in international affairs, I have the Foreign Service. I do so because— kept myself fairly well in touch with and here I stand to be corrected—there what is happening at home and what is some concluding remark by the is happening abroad. So, I feel that the Honourable Member for Batu which country at large through their represen­ would have led one to believe him, tatives have been given the opportunity when he exhorted the Government to to air their views regarding the foreign go into a huddle and decide on "what policy of this country. your policy is and tell your boys abroad." I felt a little bit hurt hearing One very strong remark made by the that, because that would probably have Honourable Member for Batu was led people to believe that in respect when he said that the foreign policy of of our foreign policy our boys were left this Government had been vague, to grope in the dark. confused and contradictory—I hope I The Honourable Member for Batu have got those three elements correct. in opening his address on the debate Well, Mr Chairman, Sir, I do not know. amending the Estimates yesterday I had never hesitated to carry out this stated that the Government had more Government's instructions during my or less sort of blocked or aborted any tour of duty abroad which means, in attempt made in this House to debate my own mind, that I was perfectly foreign policy. The Honourable Deputy certain that the Government had never Prime Minister just now at any moment been vague in all its instructions to me. Dr Tan Chee Khoon: On a point of clarification, Sir, I did not say that. I The policy of the Alliance Govern­ said that the Government had blocked ment, as conveyed to me, has always any move by the Opposition to bring been to be friendly with everybody, forth its own business—this is different especially with neighbours near us, from what the Honourable Member and that we would like to make friends for Kota Bharu Hilir had said. with countries who would support us and be friendly with us, and that we Dato' Nik Ahmad Kamil: I might are one of the strongest supporters of have misheard the Honourable Mem­ the Charter of the United Nations and ber, Mr Chairman, Sir, and I do not the Charter of Human Rights. write shorthand. But, I have got a little bit of experience in writing fairly fast I believe most Honourable Members, longhand and my little note here says, who were Members of this House for "blocked and aborted efforts of Oppo­ many years past, must remember, and sition on this matter", but as I said, will certainly remember, that from 4731 16 DECEMBER 1964 4732

1957 our foreign policy has always step towards forestalling resistance to been the pursuit of making certain Communist attacks. that the cardinal principles to be friendly with everybody and to support There was also another interjection the United Nations Charter and the into the debate yesterday—that we are Charter of Human Rights is followed. pro-West. Now, Sir, this word "pro- West", or "pro-this", "pro-that", has, I We have, as Honourable Members believe, been misunderstood. My under­ will remember, given the strongest standing all along is that when we support to Indonesia in her claim to say that we are pro-West, it does not West Irian. Our Prime Minister took mean that we are hanging on to the great pains personally to consult the tail of any Western government: when various personalities concerned, in we say that we are pro-West, we are order to bring about an amicable settle­ "pro" the method of government that ment. We have fought South Africa's certain countries in the West are adopt­ apartheid policy, because we felt that ing—that is government on the basis of the policy of South Africa in respect parliamentary democracy; and that is of apartheid has always been against my understanding when we say that we the principle and purposes of the are pro-West. Charter of Human Rights, and we have always given support in the Accordingly, it has always been my struggle for independence of dependent understanding that in our foreign nations. That has been our policy. policy, we pursue a policy which is neither pro-West nor pro-East. The Honourable Member for Batu, I hope, will now agree with me that There were doubts brought up yester­ we have not been at all vague in our day that we were not keeping ourselves foreign policy. in touch with our Afro-Asian brothers. But from my own experience in the I believe there was another allega­ United Nations, Mr Chairman, Sir, we tion, if I heard him correctly, that this keep in very close contact with Government professes to be neutral. Representatives, Permanent Represen­ The instructions which I used to receive tatives, representing the Afro-Asian in the past has never been that we countries. We have what we call our here have claimed to be neutral on any "A.A. Group", or Afro-Asian Group, issue of right or wrong. The Govern­ within the United Nations. It is an ment cannot, I am sure, remain neutral informal Group. When we meet, we air when the question of aggression is our views very frankly, very sincerely. involved, or the use of force of arms We never take offence. I do concede in order to achieve an objective. There that we have not established, as we are not many countries in the world should, many more Missions abroad. now remaining neutral, according to I well remember that during my time the classic conception of the word in Washington I had exhorted the "neutrality". Perhaps, Switzerland can Government to appoint one man to still be regarded as one such, and to a look after Washington and one man to lesser extent maybe Sweden. Take, for take on the United Nations, but the example, the other Scandinavian coun­ reply I used to get was, "We lack tries like Denmark and Norway. They personnel." Even if we can afford it regarded themselves as neutral nations financially, we have got to think that if before the war, but they gave up their we want to open a Mission, we have neutrality, because they saw for them­ got to open it properly and not in a selves that even standing on neutralism half-baked manner—not a half-baked did not save them from occupation Mission and not properly staffed. I and aggression. Further, we must believe that many of our Missions remember that neutralism, or neutrali­ abroad are still suffering from the lack sation of countries, is a very popular of the necessary number of staff. So, theme with the Peking and Moscow from that view I do agree and I do regimes. It is one of the key elements hope that the Government will see a of Communist strategy and is the first way to open more Missions, especially 4733 16 DECEMBER 1964 4734 in West Africa and in East Africa. obscure some of my colleagues or We have had an assurance now that myself will be glad to elucidate on the Missions will be opened in the not point of what we mean by a non- distant future. In Morocco, Algeria, communist party. Tunis—I do not know what Govern­ ment's intentions are—I would like to Sir, the Minister of Finance made see that we have a Mission, or rather great play of the fact that, perhaps, we Embassy, in each of the territories are not a non-communist party because mentioned. But, here again, the lack of we allow the Bank of China to operate personnel may not allow us to open in Singapore. Well, Sir, I do not know separate Missions. To me personally, whether the Minister of Finance knows the recent decision by Government, as that by at least allowing the Bank of a result of a most successful visit of China to operate in Singapore both our Deputy Prime Minister to Africa, Malaya and Singapore do some $280 has given me great happiness. million worth of trade every year as against the prospects of trade with I am sure that the Honourable the Formosa, which at the moment, I under­ Prime Minister in winding up this stand, is not more than $10 million; debate will probably give a better expla­ and by and large Formosa sells more nation of our foreign policy to the to us than she buys from us. However, House. However, as the last contribu­ Sir, that is beside the point, but since tion to this morning's debate, I would the point was brought up I thought I like the House to feel that and to know might do a little bit of elucidation that we have had, even during my time myself. abroad, understanding and support from our Afro-Asian brothers. It is Sir, what is important is that for the only because we have not had the first time this House has become aware opportunity to outrace certain countries, of our foreign policy, and to that extent which are against us, that we may may I congratulate the Honourable probably have jeopardised our position. Member for Batu, with whom I dis­ Our country is respected abroad. We agree in every other respect (Laughter), have established for ourselves a prestige for having brought up the subject of abroad, a prestige which no other foreign policy as a matter of consider­ country in this region of the world can able importance to merit debate, and claim. But we have to do more, and I this is a measure of how political life am sure our Government is alive to in this country has changed. In fact, this position. Thank you. Sir, I spent the last two or three days going through the proceedings in this Enche' S. Rajaratnam (Singapore): Chamber since 1957, and foreign affairs Mr Chairman, Sir, one thing I must say formed a negligible part of the speeches is that the Minister of Finance is and debates in this Chamber—and inviting debate on an issue which is quite rightly so—because until confron­ not quite relevant to the matter which tation we in Malaysia talked a great is before us, because he has invited us deal about our private squabbles—the to define what we mean by a non- world was Malaysia; Malaysia was the communist party. I do not know world—and perhaps that made for whether you, Mr Chairman, Sir, would happier politics. But now we have allow it; I would only be too happy to suddenly become aware that the world hold a long discourse on what we mean is not Malaysia and that Malaysia is by a non-Communist democratic Socia­ not the world, that we are living in a list party, but as you would probably world which is not something which rule me out of order, all I can suggest we can ignore. Prior to this, we have is that we have produced the Tenth always worked on the assumption that Anniversary Souvenir of our Party, if Malaysia minded its own business which costs $2 a copy before the turn­ the world would leave us alone. But, over tax comes into effect (Laughter). since one or two years ago we have I would suggest that the Minister of discovered that we have to live in a Finance look into this very bulky very turbulent world. We have to take literature, and if he finds anything cognizance of what is going on outside 4735 16 DECEMBER 1964 4736 Malaysia, because those forces which Western alliance, we have moved the are at work around us perhaps can next step to winning friends in Afro- determine the eventual future of Malay­ Asia, so we must even try to win and sia more than we can determine our put across our point of view even in own future, and this in a way is a Communist countries. I think it is about salutary awakening. It is like the shock time. Sir, we stop being like frightened with which a virgin discovers that life is maidens, who say, "Well, we must have real (Laughter), and we are political nothing to do with anybody else, with virgins now suddenly discovering that any Communist country". But, Sir, we are living in a world of thugs, of why not? The next step, explains our gentlemen who are not so polite, of case, which is a good case—the case for gentlemen who have not got the right Malaysia is a good case. Yugoslavia social manners, and we have got to is a Communist country. But why not, learn to live with them. For this rude as many other Afro-Asian countries awakening, I think we have to thank have done, establish some sort of con­ President Soekarno, because he brought tact with Yugoslavia, and even with the realities of life home to us. Iron Curtain countries? We have It is only since, perhaps, 1963 that already taken the step of setting up, or we have suddenly become aware of one sending out, trade missions to Iron fact—that to live in South-East Asia Curtain countries. Well, why not go one as an independent, sovereign nation, we step further and put across our political must first find friends. We have learnt point of view, the case for Malaysia, that we are a small nation and that our to debunk the belief, whether delibera­ diplomacy must be not that of a big tely held or mistakenly held, that power, but of a small power, a small Malaysia is a neo-colonialist plot? And chicken trying to avoid being trampled this is necessary, Sir, for us, because, by elephants around us. whether we like it or not, in this part of the world, in Asia in particular, Sir, I disagree with the Honourable Communist regimes are here to stay. Member for Batu, when he said that They are around us, and they are part our alliances with Western powers of the international political life. Their might lead us into trouble. The realities, animosities, their strategies will influ­ Sir, are that we have to lean on friends, ence the course of events in South-East powerful friends; if the West is pre­ Asia, in Malaysia; and to that extent pared, if their interest and our interest we must now learn how to co-exist with coincide on any particular issue at any Communist regimes, whether they are time, then we must join up with them. hostile or not, and learn to survive in To that extent the Alliance Govern­ this new kind of world—Communist ment, at least in that respect, has been and non-Communist world and anti- consistent about its allegiance to the Communist world. Therefore, Sir, for Western powers—Britain, America, us, for Malaysia, a small nation, the Canada, Australia and New Zealand, but where it erred was in confining its first thing to realise, to understand and alliance only to the Western powers. grasp, is the fact that we are a small However, I am happy to see that since nation. Let us have no illusions that we then that shortcoming has been made are going to play a big role, be a big good. For many years people have power, big influence in this part of the urged the Alliance Government to come world, because there are bigger fishes closer to what is called the Afro-Asian and bigger sharks around us. So, first, group, and during the last one year or we must accept the fact that we are a more we have taken that step of coming small country and that our genius lies in closer to the Afro-Asian group. making a small but prosperous country. That is a contribution we can make, an Now, Sir, I would like to suggest, and influence which we can exert in South- I hope there will be no attempt to East Asia, to show that here is a coun­ misinterpret what I have to say, that try, small though it is, with mixed as our diplomacy grows more mature, communities, representing all the major just as we have started off with the races—in fact, Sir, throughout the 4737 16 DECEMBER 1964 4738 world. The three races combined repre­ want. There are times when those who sent the cultures and the history of more give us help are working towards the than half of humanity today. If we can same goal, and there are many countries show in Malaysia that we can work a in Asia, in Africa, and in South-East democratic system, which has failed Asia, who may have common goals at everywhere else, that we can do some­ certain times. All right, we join them, thing else which even Western countries but where their goals deviate from ours have not been able to resolve, even we pull out. America and Britain, that despite the diversity of races we can create The third necessary thing for a small something which has never been done nation is not to become involved in before—a harmonious society where the big quarrels. Where power politics three major races can work together are involved and we become a pawn in to build a Malaysian society—that is power politics, whether of the East or a major contribution that Malaysia can of the West, then we are asking for make to world civilization. We cannot trouble, because if we get involved in make a contribution by way of military the big plans of the big powers and we prowess and so on, as Soekarno is become pawns of their instruments, trying to do, but this contribution we then we are really putting ourselves in can make. Just as in the case of the a position of opposition to another big Western civilization, the fore-runner, power, and sooner or later we must the pioneer of Western civilization, was come into trouble, because if the big a very small island called Athens— power with whom we have allied our­ there philosophers just talked of ideas; selves and whom we have allowed to in fact, Sir, eventually, we know, use us as pawns were to lose the battle, Athens was conquered by Spartans, we also will lose the battle. So, there­ who were, just like our friends across fore, for a small country, it is in a very the seas, a militaristic group, but Sparta delicate position of having friends and has vanished, Athens lives, and this being friends for common objectives, Assembly is a part of Athens—simi­ but not becoming involved in the power larly, I say, Sir, that we in Malaysia politics of the big nations. And because can make a major contribution to world I believe in this, Sir, I regret that civilization by doing what we are able the Alliance Government, having made to do. First, to run a good economy, a these advances—to that extent, I think prosperous society, and show to the the Deputy Prime Minister should be world that you can create a society, congratulated for the work he has done where three major races can live to­ in Africa in winning over nations which gether in harmony as one. So, I think, have been sceptical of Malaysia, but we should bear in mind what we really whom now through his visit, through are, what is our strength, what is our his explanations and his diplomacy at weakness; our strength is the poten­ least we have succeeded in winning tiality to build a Malaysian nation of more friends for the cause of Malay­ many races and our weakness is that sia—there should be the recent news we are not a great military power. that at this very critical time, when the United Nations is debating the question of recognising China, we should com­ Now, Sir, the second thing is, as I mit what I think is a mistake in said, that we must accept the fact that establishing a Consulate of Taiwan in to survive in turbulent South-East Asia, Malaysia. we must win friends. We must rely militarily on the support of others. It is Sir, these questions in respect of no use fooling ourselves that we are an China and Formosa have been left open independent nation and therefore, we for the best part of ten years. But now, cannot have bases—away with bases, suddenly, we have taken the decision and so on. I say that is foolishness. We to recognise Formosa, therefore, invol­ must accept the fact that we cannot ving ourselves in the power politics of defend ourselves. Therefore, we accept the Western nations as well as in help from any quarter so long as that Chinese politics because, Sir, recogni­ help is towards achieving goals that we tion of Taiwan or Peking, outside of 4739 16 DECEMBER 1964 4740 the purview of the United Nations' means. We may think that it is purely decision, is to involve ourselves in for trade, but the Formosan regime has Chinese politics. At least we ourselves drawn other inferences and is saying so. in Malaysia had thought that the May I, Sir, with your permission, quote Alliance Government had followed the some typical comments and news items right policy by not recognising either from the papers of Formosa? First of Formosa or Peking, because of the all, I would like to quote a very signi­ possible impact it would have in Malay­ ficant remark from President Chiang sia among the Chinese, because until Kai-Shek's Double Ten message for the last ten years or so, the Chinese this year. We work on the assumption politics, or the politics of the Chinese that Formosa's interest in Malaysia is in Malaysia, had been extensions of the purely trade. Let me quote, Sir, what politics of the Mainland—either you President Chiang Kai-Shek has said— are pro-Peking or pro-Formosa. At and it is published in the Central Daily least, during the last decade, by with­ News. After making an analysis of the drawing this question of recognition of conflict between Communism and anti- either Peking on our own, or Formosa, Communism, or what he believes the at least the Chinese in Malaysia have Free World, he goes on to say : been isolated from involving themselves "All of us, descendants of the Yellow with Chinese politics. However, Sir, Emperor, both at home and overseas"—not unfortunately, now that we have esta­ just Formosa—"should unite as one under the blished a Consulate of Formosa here, national banner of the bright sun in the blue sky over the crimson ground."—those are the there must be reactions in Malaysia: symbol of the Nationalist flag of Taiwan. certain Chinese, especially those Chinese, who once upon a time were Sir, we may think that the Consulate actively involved in Kuomintang poli­ is being established here for trade pur­ tics, will now feel that their cause, poses, but President Chiang Kai-Shek which they were espousing and which does not think so. He is calling upon they had abandoned because of our the overseas Chinese, as well as the insistence that they should become loyal Chinese in Formosa, to unite as one Malaysians, should forget China and under the banner of the Kuomintang forget Formosa, will be achieved, and flag. Sir, I am just putting this forward now it is a victory for them. to the Alliance Government to reconsi­ der or, at least, to ask them to be on It has been said, Sir, "Oh! This is a their guard. I do not think that we can Consulate. There is no politics about it. do anything about all this, but we It is purely to establish trade connec­ should be on our guard as to what tions." First of all, what trade connec­ could happen once we establish a Tai­ tions or trade relations should we have wan Consulate because they are going with Formosa? I understand, Sir, that to exploit this to the full. even before the Consulate was esta­ blished, Formosa's trade with Malaysia Again, Sir, on October 1st, the was a one-way trade—the Formosans United Daily News and the Central were selling more than what we were Daily News, both Formosan papers, prepared to sell them. So, there is no carried this news item, of which this need to establish a Consulate. If you is the translation : want to carry on trade with them, let "Taiwan's Foreign Minister, Shen Chan us have a quiet trade mission outfit Huan, yesterday reported to the Parlia­ ment"—that is in Formosa—"on his recent here, which can facilitate trade between tour in Malaysia, the Philippines and Thai­ Formosa and Malaysia. land. He said, 'We will be further strengthen­ ing our economic and cultural relations with Now, Sir, let us assume that we think Malaysia.' " it is purely for trade purposes. But I have here translations from Formosan Sir, having said this very subtly to papers which have made their own imply that this is a political commit­ interpretation and have made propa­ ment as well, he goes on to say: ganda capital out of the opening of "During a reception party held in Malaysia, the Foreign Minister reported—this is a their Consulate here. They have given report in Parliament, Sir—Malaysia's Prime their own interpretation of what this Minister, Tunku Abdul Rahman, got up and 4741 16 DECEMBER 1964 4742

proposed a toast to President Chiang Kai- that. All I said was that this is how Shek of the Republic of China our great hero, from which we can see the high esteem the Formosan papers are exploiting the Tunku has for President Chiang." the situation to their political advan­ tage. Sir, they are out to exploit the situa­ tion. I do not believe our Prime Again, Sir, the United Daily News Minister would have toasted Chiang on November the 8th said, "Mr Tan Kai-Shek and acclaimed him a great Lark Sye, the founder of the Nanyang hero. But from the point of view of University in Singapore yesterday left the Formosan regime, they are in a Taipeh by air with his family after desperate situation, they must do any­ touring Taiwan, and on his return to thing, and they will exploit this to Singapore Mr Tan praised the pros­ their advantage, and we must accept perity and progress made in Taiwan that. Sir, though we say this is purely and encouraged his friends and rela­ for trade, I quote another item from tives to visit Taiwan." Sir, I do not the Central Daily News of October wish to quote too much, but I wish to 1st, 1964—we say that it is purely make one last and rather pertinent trade but I say, Sir, that there are quotation. They say it is purely trade, political overtones—and the heading but the number of people who are of this news item says, "T. H. Tan going there—Ministers, Assistant praises Taiwan's determination to Ministers and officials—all converging fight Communism." It goes on: on Taiwan—is very large; I have got a whole sheaf of them. What is so "Mr T. H. Tan, Malaysia's Member of Parliament, today said that relations between interesting about Taiwan to establish the Republic of China and Malaysia are a trade mission? (Laughter). Sir, one expected to be strengthened because the two last quotation: "Among the foreign countries are fighting against a common dignitaries who visited the Economic enemy." Exhibition"—this is from the Taiwan It has nothing to do with trade; it is paper Central Daily News of Novem­ political and military, at least, in so ber 8th, 1964, it is a Government far as this report is correct. I am not and party paper—"yesterday were saying this is correct, but this is how Mr & Mrs Ooi Thiam Siew, former the Formosan papers are presenting Mayor of Penang in Malaysia." the issue. Mr Tan is again quoted He is quoted as saying, "Mr Ooi further as saying: Thiam Siew, the former Mayor of "Malaysia is also determined to fight Penang, after seeing the exhibition, Communism—only that our scale is some­ said, The many wonderful exhibits what smaller. Under the leadership of shown here are just what we Malay­ President Chiang, the Republic of China has sians need. With the strengthening of progressed tremendously." trade ties, our relations will be even Sir, what have all these got to do with brought closer.' Malaysia has a lot to trade? learn from the Republic of China." Socialist Front Mayor, Sir! Enche' Abu Bakar bin Hamzah (Bachok): Tuan Pengerusi, untok pen- Enche' Geh Chong Keat: Sir, I think jelasan. Di-dalam keterangan saudara the Member from Singapore is trying saya dari Singapura dia ini menerang- 2 to introduce into this House the kan hujah -nya menunjokkan per- squabble that they have between the hubongan dengan politik, tetapi dia P.A.P. and Mr Ooi Thiam Siew, the tidak perchaya yang Perdana Menteri 2 former Mayor of the City of George­ kita memberi toast dengan chara town. I suggest that he leave it outside mengagongkan Chiang Kai-Shek tetapi this House and they can fight dia tidak menunjokkan hujah mengapa among themselves outside this House dia tidak perchaya, sa-patut-nya dia (Laughter). explain mengapa dia tidak perchaya itu. Enche' S. Rajaratnam: I do not know whether he would like me to introduce Enche'S. Rajaratnam: Mr Chairman, members of his party into this debate— Sir, I think it is not for me to answer I have got a whole list of them here. 4743 16 DECEMBER 1964 4744

Enche' Geh Chong Keat: As I said, the members of the United Nations this is a squabble between the P.A.P. have decided is a regime on its last and Mr Ooi Thiam Siew, the former legs. We ourselves are not advocating Mayor of the City of Georgetown. that we should be anti-Formosa. Let That is their private quarrel. Let that us have trade relations—I have no not be brought into this House. objections to it. If there are bright Formosans who can help us out, that Enche' C. V. Devan Nair: All right, is okay; but I suggest, Sir, that the then let us confine ourselves to the Government should be more cautious activities of Mr T. H. Tan. about who visits Formosa and what the Formosans do here. Thank you Enche' S. Rajaratnam: I do not know very much. why he should get heated up if the Socialist Front and the P.A.P. Enche' S. P. Seenivasagam (Meng- squabble. I thought they would be lembu): Mr Chairman, Sir, I agree that quite happy to see us quarrelling. it should be the policy of the Govern­ Anyway, Sir ... . ment to try and win as much African support as possible for our cause Enche' Tan Toh Hong: Why not we against Indonesia. But it seems to me debate on the P.A.P. Secretary- that there is a tendency in certain General's visit to Moscow, rather than quarters to exaggerate and over­ Mr T. H. Tan's visit to Formosa? estimate the importance of this Mr Chairman: May I point out that support. if it is on a point of order you might Mr Chairman, Sir, we have done interrupt, but not on a point of everything possible, I should say, explanation. Let him finish his speech. culminating with the last visit of the Enche' S. Rajaratnam: Anyway, Sir, Deputy Prime Minister to the African it is most interesting that we have States to present our case to them, M.C.A. Senators, Government Minis­ but I am rather pessimistic about ters, officials, agricultural experts, and reports that the Deputy Prime Minis­ even an Ex-Socialist Front Mayor, ter's visit has in any way changed all visiting Taiwan. What is so attrac­ the minds of these African States. The tive? All I know is that that place Honourable the Deputy Prime Minis­ produces camphor. Whether it has any ter returned to this country and he other tourist attractions, of which we stated that he was quite pleased about hear nothing about, I do not know the results of his visit. But I ask, what (Laughter). But obviously there is are the results of the visit? Has there considerable attraction to get these been a single African State which has people purely to open a small trade reversed its previous policy as a result office in Malaysia. of this visit? Has there been a single African State which has issued a Mr Chairman: I would like to point statement following the visit of the out to the Honourable Member that Honourable the Deputy Prime Minis­ he should avoid this kind of debate. ter stating that it gives its support to Come to the point all the time. Malaysia? I have searched and I have found no statement issued by any Enche' S. Rajaratnam: Anyway, Sir, African State which has been visited I shall not take too much of your by the Honourable the Deputy Prime time. Having made my point that by Minister. We must, therefore, reconcile establishing a Consulate here we are ourselves to the fact that in so far as really undoing the good work that the the African States are concerned, it is Deputy Prime Minister did when he unlikely that in the near future they went to Afro-Asian countries trying to are going to reverse their present win them over by showing that we are policies. I think we have to face the not the stooges of Western powers, I fact that, in so far as Malaysia is would say that now suddenly you tie concerned, it is outside the Comity, yourself up with a regime which, as outside the group, of the African you know, Sir, even the majority of nations, because there is a tendency 4745 16 DECEMBER 1964 4746 in these African States to regard Now, as I said, I do not discourage Soekarno as a liberator of South-East movements to establish or gain African Asia, to regard him as the hero who support but, to me, it seems at the has thrown out the colonialists from moment, at any rate, futile. We must South-East Asia and I do not think not mistake the manifestations of that anything we do or say is going to courtesy and hospitality to us when make any African State hostile to we visit the African States; we must Soekarno, let alone bring hostility not interpret that courtesy and hospi­ towards Soekarno. I do not think that tality as open support for us. It would in the near future we can expect any be wrong to create such an impression. African State to come out openly in In fact, in proclaiming this growing support of Malaysia; and I think I African support for Malaysia, I feel stand on firm ground when I say that, we are blowing a balloon, a balloon because, as I pointed out, so far we which, if we continue to blow further, have had only unilateral statements, is going to burst, because sooner or statements from our side, that the later Soekarno will call upon these Africans* have been nice to us, that the African States to declare—and I feel Africans have sympathy for us—but they will declare—and whatever their that does not mean that they support declaration may be, it will not be a us against Indonesia. It is all very declaration of support for Malaysia well for the African leaders to say, against Indonesia. Friendly, yes; when we go there, "Oh, we are sorry sympathy, yes; but as for support that you are having troubles. We hope against Soekarno, we have received no you will be able to solve your troubles. such assurances as yet. If there is anything we can do about it, please let us know". That is about Now, quite frankly, I do not think all that has happened so far. it hurts us very much if we are not accepted by these African States as Now, let us take one instance: the belonging to their group, as belonging occasion of the Honourable Deputy to their club, because a lot of things Prime Minister's visit to Cairo. Mem­ go on in these States with which we bers of this House will recollect that cannot possibly agree. The sort of the President of Mali had visited democracy practised in these new Indonesia. He was entertained by African States is not the sort of demo­ Soekarno, and there the President of cracy we know and which we want in Mali declared that Indonesia would this country. Therefore, we are certain­ crush Malaysia and that victory would ly not members of their club. They come to Indonesia. And what happened can be friendly with us. We welcome when the Honourable Deputy Prime their friendship, but let us not identify Minister went to Cairo? His visit ourselves completely with this so- coincided with the banquet given in called Afro-Asian group, the so-called honour of the President of Mali, who group which professes to protect had openly declared himself on the democracy in Asia. But if we look at side of Indonesia against Malaysia. the internal conditions of those States, The Honourable Deputy Prime Minis­ does any one of those States have the ter was invited to attend that dinner sort of democracy which we want in in honour of the President of Mali this country? Do we want a democracy who sides with Soekarno against like Ghana where the Chief Justice is Malaysia, and I have read in a certain sacked because he gives a judgment newspaper in Malaya that that was a which President Nkrumah does not signal honour conferred on our Deputy like? Do we want a democracy like Prime Minister. I should have con­ Kenya, where there is one party govern­ sidered it a downright insult that our ment or one party state? Therefore, let Deputy Prime Minister had to sit at us not create the impression that we the same table with a man who has approve the constitutions and the prac­ openly declared that Indonesia is going tices in these countries and that we will to crush Malaysia and that Indonesia adopt their systems just to become a will crush Malaysia. member of their exclusive group. 4747 16 DECEMBER 1964 4748

Now, it may not be fashionable let us proceed to secure what we want for me to say so. The fashion these and let us not waste time trying to days appears to be that if you are an win the support of those who are not Asian country you must join the so- going to give us their support in any called Afro-Asian group, otherwise way; when I say "support" I mean you are an outcast. Whether it is "active support" and not "lip service". fashionable or not, we have got to face the facts. Now, not as a matter of Enche' Tan Toh Hong (Bukit choice .... Biniang): Mr Chairman, Sir, I would like to refer to the $1 cut of the Hon­ Mr Speaker: I do not like to inter­ ourable Member for Batu and his rupt, but I have to point out to the doubt on our foreign policy in reference Honourable Member that the debate to non-alignment and co-existence, a is for reducing the sum stated in Head policy which the Honourable Member S. 21, sub-head 1, item (1) by $1. Do claims to be contradictory and vague. not let your speech develop into a It is obvious, Sir, that the Socialist debate on foreign policy too much. Front is still as confused as ever on our You may touch on it in passing only. stand and objectives underlined in our Enche' S. P. Seenivasagam: I assume policy on foreign relations. the Honourable Member for Batu Sir, to understand our foreign policy, wants the $1 cut to show that he has it is necessary for me to recapitulate no confidence in the foreign policy of very briefly our national objectives. the Minister, and that involves our Time and again, the Alliance has stated relationship with the African States. that our primary aim is to continue to In fact, I have abandoned that point improve the wellbeing of our people and I was going on to a new point and our nation, economically and just now, Sir. socially, and the most supreme of all I would therefore advocate, not as our objectives is our aim to ensure our a matter of choice but as a matter of national survival. If one accepts these prudence, that in the present context two objectives, then our foreign rela­ of confrontation with Indonesia we tions become as clear as crystal; it is must be dictated by the exigencies of either that the Socialist Front refuse to the situation. I suggest that the accept these aims or that they them­ Government, while not abandoning its selves do not know the mechanics and efforts to make friends with the complexities of international relations. African States, should direct its energies more to securing effective Sir, Malaysia is a small country with relationships, and obtaining effective a population of only ten million depend­ assurances from the Western powers in ing on trade and export for their well- ensuring that they will come to our being. And ever since the Alliance military aid when the time comes, if undertook the role of national leader­ such a time ever comes. With all the ship, all the energies, all our efforts support of Africa we will not survive and our resources are channeled into in the event of an armed conflict with peaceful use. For this small country, Indonesia, if we do not have the our contribution towards the world military support of the Western powers. civilisation—the East, the West and the That is a fact which we must face third force—towards the reduction of whether we like it or not. Therefore, the increasing gap between the rich if we have to spend time, if we have nations and the poorer nations, between to spend money, if we have to send the world's "haves" and the "have- our men abroad, let us send them to nots" is that we have achieved our places, to countries whose assistance social experiment, an experiment by the we stand in need of. As for moral Alliance Government that transformed support, let the whole world give its a dormant colonial economy into a moral support to us, but still we will dynamic, thriving nation in a short not survive without military support time and in a manner that has captured from the Western powers. Therefore, the admiration of all newly emerging whether it is fashionable or not, I say, countries. Upon the awakening of 4749 16 DECEMBER 1964 4750 national and political consciousness in their idea of co-existence is to promote Malaya, and now in Malaysia, we have forces fighting for socialism. In addi­ added substance and strength. Here is tion, according to Krushchev, Com­ a brethren of the Afro-Asian countries munist-type co-existence—quoting his that has made it—that is our contribu­ words—'facilitates the activities of the tion. Here is a small newly-independent Communist parties ". There nation, Malaysia, pursuing its own should be no doubt as to the Alliance independent, friendly, foreign policy Government's policy of non-alignment which has arrived at a state of dynamic and of democratic co-existence. equilibrium. This equilibrium will continue to accelerate at an ever- In fact, if the Socialist Front takes increasing rate so long as the Alliance the trouble to make a critical appraisal Government is in power. of international events, they will be the first to admit that we are more non- Mr Chairman, Sir, this social experi­ aligned than some of the countries that ment cannot be realised, if our Honour­ attended the recent Cairo Conference. able the Prime Minister and Minister Is it not true that Cuba, a so-called of External Affairs has not had the non-aligned country which attended the wisdom and foresight to insist on our Conference, is also a member of the long-term peaceful development rather Communist bloc? The Alliance Govern­ than military might, when he became ment does not belong to any power our national leader a decade ago. It is blocs, because we see no future for because we cannot spare our man­ ourselves to be caught up with interna­ power and resources for military might tional power conflicts of the East and that we have to find a way to ensure the West. This policy has been reflected that our sovereignty is effectively pro­ throughout the past nine years and it is tected in case of full-scale aggression very mischievous for the Honourable against us. Our Honourable Minister Member from Singapore, Enche' of External Affairs, therefore, as far Rajaratnam, to instil doubt we are back as 1957, concluded a bilateral involved in this international power defence treaty with the United King­ conflict. Sir, this becomes clear if the dom. It is only a bilateral defence Socialist Front remembers that we have treaty known as the Mutual Defence not entered into any military treaty Agreement, which the Honourable the that is multi-lateral in nature, and any Deputy Prime Minister has explained military treaty that is collective in very clearly. The end result is that nature as to give it the connotation of the wisdom and the foresight of being part of a power bloc. We are not our Honourable the Prime Minister, a member of SEATO, of CENTO, or of unmatched by anyone present here, is the ANZUS Pact. Let it be made clear now paying us very handsome divi­ once and for all that we pursue an dends. Because we have this bilateral independent foreign policy, subservient defence treaty, which is mutual and to no one, except the will of our people. purely defensive in nature, the Socialist This is no empty declaration of non- Front is entirely mistaken to imply that alignment, because the acid test lies in we are not non-aligned, and that we do our past performances. Let me enume­ not uphold the principles of co- rate some of our past actions in existance. international affairs. Sir, our concept of co-existence has nothing to do with the Communist's The Honourable the Prime Minister concept of co-existence. Our concept and Minister of External Affairs is the is logically the democratic principles of first leader of any non-aligned country human dignity, tolerance, the right of who openly condemned the blatant self-determination and national inde­ invasion of India by Communist China. pendence—in short, very similar to the In 1959, Malaysia condemned Russia concept of Malaysia. when she sent troops and tanks .... In fact, we reject, and reject in no Dr Tan Chee Khoon: On a point of uncertain terms, the Communist type clarification, Mr Speaker, Sir. In 1959 of co-existence. To the Communists, Malaysia was not in existence. 4751 16 DECEMBER 1964 4752

Enche' Tan Toh Hong: Malaya, since Again, for the benefit of the Honour­ the Alliance Government was in power able Member for Batu, I would in Malaya, which is part of Malaysia mention briefly these five principles, now. Anyway, Sir, in 1959, the Alliance which were propounded by that great Government condemned Russia when Asian statesman, the late Mr Nehru, she sent troops and tanks to violate the and not anyone else. That is why I territorial integrity of Hungary. followed the Hindustani spelling. The five principles are: In 1960, the world was amazed by the unprecedented move of the Honour­ (1) Mutual respect for territorial able the Prime Minister to expel South rights and sovereignty. Africa from the Commonwealth of (2) Non-aggression. Nations for her colonial, repressive (3) Non-interference in internal affairs apartheid policy. Sir, under present of another nation. conditions, what is most deplorable, most sad, is that by bringing Singapore (4) Equality and mutual benefit. into the fold of Malaysia, the P.A.P. (5) Peaceful co-existence. Government still persists in condoning South Africa, in condoning the repres­ Mr Chairman, Sir, in this very spirit sive acts against the oppressed. If the of Nehru's Panchsheel, Soekarno has Honourable Mr Lee Kuan Yew still broken every one of those golden rules pretends to claim social justice, con­ of non-alignment. He does so openly cern for the oppressed, and if he still and blatantly. He has even declared in pretends to be a so-called champion of the United Nations that he has the the have-nots, I demand that the P.A.P. right to use military force to encroach boycott South African goods now and upon our sovereignty so as to interfere stop trading with South Africa. I politically in the internal affairs of demand that the Honourable Mr Lee Malaysia. Thank God, this is rejected, Kuan Yew follow the good and wise and rejected in no uncertain terms, by example of our Honourable Prime the United Nations and similarly by Minister of Malaysia and of the the recent Cairo Conference. Alliance Government. If there were Sir, the Cairo Conference of Afro- any distrust by our African brothers, Asian countries have seen through . . . as alleged by the Honourable Member for Batu, then such distrust is certainly Enche' S. P. Seenivasagam: Mr Chair­ not brought about by the Alliance man, Sir, on a point of order. I would Government. Where the fault lies is submit that the speaker is entirely clear for all to see. Coming back, Sir, irrelevant. He is bringing up matters to past performances, when in the that have nothing to do with the motion United Nations, we joined forces with to cut $1. He is reviewing Soekarno's our Afro-Asian brothers to deplore the policy, he is reviewing the United Portuguese repressive measures in Nations policy, and he is reviewing the Angola. There is no doubt whatsoever Panchasila. in our firm conviction of the five prin­ Mr Chairman: I ask you not to go ciples of "Panchsheel"—I think that too much out of the way! is how it is pronounced in Hindustani— which define the concept of peace Enche' Tan Toh Hong: Yes, Sir. The through one-dollar cut is a vote of no confidence or indictment against the Alliance Dr Tan Chee Khoon: For the Government in its foreign policies, and information of the Honourable Member I am trying to defend those foreign concerned, I think it is "Panchasila". policies which, I think, the people of Malaysia know, are right ones. Only Enche' Tan Toh Hong: Anyway, Sir, some unfortunate Members who sit on I am using a Hindustani word and if the other side of the House will still he will bear with me, he will become have to be convinced. very clear as to why I call it "Panch­ sheel"—it defines the concept of peace Sir, the Cairo Conference of Afro- through non-alignment and neutrality. Asian countries has seen through 4753 16 DECEMBER 1964 4754

Soekarno and has the wisdom to take Enche' Tan Toh Hong: Yes, Sir, I away the make-up, rouge, powder and am concluding on that now, and I am lipstick of Soekarno to expose his coming back to our Malaysian policy aggressive designs. It is about time that on foreign affairs. the Afro-Asian bloc reject this irrespon­ Therefore, I would like to appeal to sible man. the present American Administration I appeal to the Socialist Front to be not to be misled by Soekarno but, realistic and not to be carried away instead, to match their foresight with by their own confused propaganda. that of the American Senators, who So long as aggressors exist in this said "To Hell with Soekarno". As for world, the great issue of war or peace our own action, given the need to remains paramount. And I further preserve peace, we can only travel along appeal to the Socialist Front that for the paths of existing international reali­ the sake of our children, if not for ties. In the international context, and ourselves, please do not be blinded by in the face of imperialistic militant the Soekarno brand of "neutrality". aggression by Soekarno and the Partai To people like Soekarno, their version Komunis Indonesia, our path should be of neutrality and non-alignment is only the one between Non-Alignment and a political weapon meant for their own No-Strings-Attached Aids given by selfish ends. It is a dangerous weapon friendly countries whose political orien­ whereby they play the East against the tation is domestically acceptable to us West and vice versa so as to secure the and strategically tenable. greatest benefit from both. Thus the Thank you for your patience, Sir. world saw the unique situation that while the Communist bloc gave Dr Mahathir bin Mohamad (Kota sedulous support to Soekarno in the Star Selatan): Mr Chairman, Sir, when West New Guinea issue, the Kennedy the Member for Batu tries to get this Administration also worked in the same House to express no confidence in the direction by pressing the Netherlands Minister of External Affairs by his to concede. attempt to reduce the token vote by one dollar, I believe the Member is It is very tempting, Sir, for Soekarno within his rights, but whether there is with his irresponsibility to think that he in fact can play the Great-Power game. But by riding the tiger, this mad man has Dr Tan Chee Khoon: Sir, I hate to plunged his country, Indonesia, right interrupt my medical colleague. My into the dangerous shoals of Communist intention was not to express a vote of infiltration and domination. Sir, he can no confidence. My intention was to never stop the expansion of Com­ focus attention, and I said very clearly munism in Indonesia. I understand that that I only wanted to focus attention. the Communists have even meddled That I have succeeded beyond measure, with his kidneys (Laughter) and the I think, might be embarrassing to you, result, I believe, is a swollen leg. Sir, because time is running short and we are still on my amendment. The irony of it all is that, despite Mr Chairman: I am afraid when you massive help from Russia and America, make a proposal for such a cut, you Soekarno did not bring any material are expressing no confidence. benefits to the Indonesian people. Instead of meeting the rising pressure Dr Mahathir: Thank you, Mr Chair­ of the Indonesian ra'ayat for a better man, Sir. That saves me the need to life, all he has brought is national ruin explain further as to why he tries to and degeneracy. In this respect, reduce the vote by one dollar. However, Sir .... I would like to say that there is, in fact, no dissatisfaction with our foreign Mr Chairman: I would like to point policy sufficient to justify this move out to the Honourable Member that we made by him. Mr Chairman, Sir, our are not concerned with Soekarno's foreign policy like any other foreign country here! policy of any nation, democratic or 4755 16 DECEMBER 1964 4756 otherwise, cannot be made to satisfy and try, on the strength of his backing every group and every individual. The probably in his one small constituency, important thing is whether our foreign to imply that the foreign policy of this policy has the support of the majority country does not have the sanction or of the people in this country. Sir, I the support of the people of this submit that it has, and I challenge the country by trying to move a motion of Opposition to prove that it has not. no confidence in this House. By the There are only two ways wherein the criteria I have illustrated, our foreign foreign policy of any Government can policy is, in fact, the approved policy run counter to the wishes of the people. of the vast majority of the people in It can do so, firstly, if it is not a this country. To attempt to go against popularly elected Government, or it can this policy is to attempt to impose the do so if a popularly elected Govern­ will} of a minority in the affairs of this ment were to veer away from the country—an attitude which I think is promises it made before and during totally undemocratic. elections. I have no doubt that not one member of the Opposition would dare Sir, I would like, however, to to stand up and say that the Alliance answer some of the charges relating to Government is not a popularly elected our attitude towards the Afro-Asian Government. During the course of the bloc. Anyone who has studied our Elections, the people of this country foreign policy, and our foreign rela­ were subjected to the full blast of tions, must be able to see that we have propaganda from the Socialist Front, always identified ourselves with the from the P.A.P., from the P.P.P. and Afro-Asian aspirations and inclinations. what have you. Since Malaya became independent in 1957, we have taken full control of our Enche' S. P. Seenivasagam: Sir, on a foreign policy. We have insisted on point of clarification, the radio and remaining uncommitted in the power television were denied to the Opposi­ struggle between the East and the tion ! West. In our decisions, we have always Dr Mahathir: Those facilities will be been moved by our own needs. It is given to you the moment you get into true that we have often supported the power! Anyway, Sir, the fact that the West. But every time we do this, the Alliance has been returned to power dominant factor has always been our with an even greater majority, implies own interest. Long before the West that the people have confidence in the reconciled itself to the integration of Alliance Government and that the West Irian with Indonesia, we had Alliance Government is, in fact, the voiced our support for the Indonesian popularly elected Government of this claim. True, we differed in the manner country. that this claim should be pushed The other things, Sir, is that the through. Essentially peaceful, we pre­ Opposition might wonder whether this ferred a negotiated settlement even at Government had in fact veered away the risk of Indonesian displeasure. But frorn its declared policies, especially in we were consistent even though the the matter of foreign affairs. In the West did not care for our viewpoint. matter of foreign affairs, everyone In the case of South Africa, it was our knows that we have been very consis­ attitude which pushed South Africa out tent. We have stated our views since of the Commonwealth and made her a 1957, before the 1959 elections and pariah among the nations. It is no before the 1964 elections, and we secret that Britain was far from have been continuing with this same pleased, but we stuck to our guns. policy. That, in fact, is the point However, if our reputation on the which the Opposition is so much question of South Africa is blemished against. They say we are continuing now, it is certainly not the Central a policy which is not compatible Government's fault. The blame lies with our present relationships in foreign with the State Government of Singa­ affairs. So, in the face of this, I cannot pore. Our present posture in relation see how anyone could rise in this House to Afro-Asia politics is clearer than 4757 16 DECEMBER 1964 4758 ever. We are seeking our proper place United Nations. Now, had Israel carri­ among the nations of Afro-Asia. We ed out the resolution passed by the subscribe to the Bandoeng Resolutions U.N., it would mean that the Arab and in our affairs we have stuck to refugees, who had been cruelly thrown these resolutions to the letter. out of their countries, could be brought back and given the right that they As to the role of our former should have in Israel, and should this Ambassador to Cairo, about whom the situation be brought back to normal— member for Batu made comment, I would say that the Ambassador to should the Arab refugees be back in Cairo did a very good job indeed. He their own country—then Israel would was accredited to Cairo and we now in time become not a Jewish country know how the United Arab Republic but an Arab country and, as such, it has come out in favour of us and has will be acceptable to the Arab countries always been on our side. As to the in that area. This, in fact, is our atti­ supposed failure of the Ambassador to tude, and our attitute in fact is the get us into the Afro-Asian group, may attitude of the Arab countries in that I point out that there is no Afro-Asian area, and I do not see how anyone Secretariat in Cairo for our Ambassador could criticise us in our relation to in Cairo to work upon. Israel, when our relation in fact con­ forms to the relation with Israel On non-alignment our attitude is even advocated by the United Arab Re­ clearer. We associated ourselves wholly public and the other members of the with the spirit to the recent Cairo Arab League. Conference. We aligned ourselves with no one in the cold war. We do not side The other points which have been with the East or the West. We weigh raised by the Honourable Member for every situation on its merits and decide Batu I believe have been sufficiently for ourselves as to whom we should clarified, and it should be obvious that support. But when our own country's there has been no need to try and security is in danger and we face the castigate the Minister of Foreign Affairs need to ask for help, it is not our fault by trying to reduce the token vote by if we accept what is offered to us. one dollar. In fact, there is no need for Indonesia, as we all know, is being this debate on foreign affairs, because directly aided by the Communists and there is really no dissatisfaction by the it is only natural that those who are large majority of the people in this opposed to the Communists would country with our conduct of our come to our help. This does not mean foreign affairs. that we are now part of the Western Enche' Lee Kuan Yew (Singapore): bloc. Mr Chairman, Sir, foreign affairs, like On the question of Israel, which so many other subjects in Malaysia, members of the P.M.I.P. invariably becomes an entirely different matter raise in this House, I think our attitude before and after confrontation. Pre- is most correct. Israel, as everyone confrontation, particularly in the good knows, was created by the United old days of the Federation of Malaya, Nations, that is to say, it was given an external affairs was the gentle game international personality and a territory of playing at being independent— which is to be called Israel. But in diplomatic parties, embassies abroad, forming Israel the United Nations also flags, etc.,—and it helps the sensation passed a resolution calling upon that of freedom and greatness. It is a Government to allow the Arab refugees singularly fortunate position to be able back into Israel. We recognise the to view foreign affairs from that existence of the State of Israel, but we singularly secure position, and there do not recognise the Government of are still a few countries in the world Israel. We do not recognise that for whom foreign affairs means a Government and we have no one sensation of independence—Trinidad accredited to that Government simply and Tobago, Jamaica and Malta; but as because that Government has not the realities of life bear upon us, the carried out the resolution passed by the realities of living with a big and 4759 16 DECEMBER 1964 4760

rapacious neighbour, the happy days to get closer to President Nasser, when our Prime Minister was trying to because they realise that the chances help solve the West Irian crisis seem of their keeping their oil wealth from so completely unreal. It is difficult to more grasping hands require their imagine, Sir, how it was in those days identification with this new force. They that we were unable to fathom where also must share in expressing their we would be in just a matter of three belief, their affirmations, in the policies to four years—from 1958, 1959, 1960. of a more egalitarian world. So it was We also supported the liberation of with Indonesia: their external politics West Irian. I went to Jakarta in 1960 was just an extension of their domestic and appended my signature to a problems. For five to six years Indo­ document with their First Minister- nesia lived on nothing but West one of the biggest mistakes we ever Irian—and very skillfully too. They did, because had they not solved the built up this image of themselves as West Irian question, today we would anti-colonialists, neutral between the be living in peace. So, we learn that conflicts of two power blocs, non- some problems in the world can never aligned, believing in Panchasila, and be solved, and perhaps there would so on. Their external efforts were be less problems created, if some of designed to keep their internal situa­ them were left unsolved. tion viable, and the moment they achieved that objective they had to Today, post-confrontation, external get somebody or something to put in affairs means to Malaysia literally a its place—that is where we are. We matter of life and death. Isolation are now acting as the internal cement from the growing body of Afro-Asian for what are basically fissiparous forces opinion and identification with the in Indonesia. The problem now for us imperialist and colonialist nations is how do we negative the deleterious must in the end mean death. For us effects of being the factor made use of life must mean a growing closer of by Indonesia for their own internal identification and association with the politics. hopes and aspirations and political attitudes of the growing band of Afro- Asian and Latin American countries— Sir, I suggest that, however uncritical people exerting their rights not just to it was for us to have set up embassies the sensation of freedom but to the in South Korea and South Vietnam, realities of independence in an the time has come for us to re-assess international community. our international posture. Can you, on the one hand, tell the Afro-Asians, In many ways, Mr Chairman, Sir, "We are with you, we share your external affairs is an extension of hopes and aspirations" and yet say domestic affairs. To put it in another that we cannot afford, internationally, way, what we say and what we do in an embassy in Addis Ababa where the field of foreign politics is so often now thirty-six African nations are in the external manifestations of our permanent representation—we cannot domestic politics, our internal hopes afford it; we are a poor, small nation, and fears; and so it is that the but we can afford to have an embassy embassies that were established in in Seoul, a very important place, Sir, Kuala Lumpur pre-Malaysia, and the where ginseng comes from, and that embassies that we established abroad no doubt helps the health and virility pre-Malaysia, reflected the affinity and of many of the M.C.A. Members identification of political attitudes and opposite. (Laughter). But can we really political premises. expect them to take us seriously when we say, "Yes, we love to have We were with Saudi Arabia—one diplomatic relations with you, but we of the first embassies to be set up in cannot afford it?" If we cannot have an Kuala Lumpur. It has a king and it embassy, at least a legation in Algiers. has a strongly entrenched society These are the big and important after a traditional pattern. But even centres of international opinion; people Saudi Arabia now find it very useful flock and foregather there, all of them, 4761 16 DECEMBER 1964 4762 the Eastern bloc, the Western bloc— differences between them which can and some of the biggest delegations help us. The Indonesians do this with from both the Americans and the extremely great skill and dexterity, Russians are on the African con­ and I think it is not beyond the tinent—and the Chinese too. capacity of our Ministry of External Affairs to play upon the nuances of May I, Mr Speaker, Sir, just as a emphasis and attitudes between the matter of interest, run through the hard Leninist line and the peaceful protocol list of our embassies abroad. co-existence Khrushchev line. Every­ I am not quite sure how the protocol where that we have been abroad, in was arrived at. I would like to believe international conferences, Moshi, that this was purely done on the basis Algiers, there was a clear distinction of first come first place, historical in attitudes between the hard Leninist development, I mean. groups who were anti us, whatever the First, London (quite right, so it reasons, and the Russians and others must be), next Washington, (rightly so; with the Russians who were prepared they buy our rubber and are an to listen and be convinced, who wanted important factor in South East Asia), to listen because they were also look­ New York third, and Canberra fourth ing for friends in their other fight. (I think, wise, and it showed foresight Sir, I am not saying that the Govern­ that even in those early days we ment should dilute the purity of its thought the Australians could be our anti-Communist approach. I do not friends), and then as an after thought think any nation in Asia could have New Delhi (Now, Sir, I am glad New been more positively anti-Communist Delhi took precedence over Jakarta) than Pakistan. It has a constitution and then we have all these Embassies which starts off that the State is based set up in the halcyon days of pre- on God and Islam. But Islam notwith­ confrontation: Tokyo—where President standing, President Ayub has very Soekarno often sojourns, Paris (Now, skilfully moved into a position, where Sir, I am not saying the French are he has ensured that the Indians will not an important people; they are, and not be able to move on Kashmir they have got one of the greatest of without repercussions on their northern elder statesmen in the world; but if borders. These are the facts of life. I Paris, why not Addis Ababa?), then am not passing judgment on the Karachi, Bangkok, Cairo, Bonn, Saigon morality or a—morality of Pakistani and now slowly Rangoon; and I hope attitudes, but I think we all know that later on the neighbours, who really they have, for diverse domestic matter to us, whether we like them or reasons—Pakistani reasons—taken a we don't like them, Ceylon, Cambodia. more neutral stand vis-a-vis Malaysia, I am not saying that we should not because they were also looking for have allowed the other nations not to friends, who are now confronting us have come in. However, I think a at Afro-Asian gatherings—to isolate re-appraisal of our attitude is neces­ their immediate domestic problem, the sary. Pre-confrontation we could afford Indian pressure on the Kashmir to say, "Out with all the Communists" dispute. the Russians, Yugoslavs, the Titoists, they are all Communists. Post- Sir, Malaysia can be presented to confrontation, I think, there are the world in one of two ways. One, different kinds of Communists and and I commend this for the considera­ some could be useful to us. I notice tion of the Honourable the Prime the facts of life made us sent a rubber Minister, that it is a nation which mission to Russia and Poland recently. emerged as a result of British de­ They are today the biggest single colonisation, that we fought for our group of buyers of our rubber. I am freedom and achieved it, have the not suggesting that we should invite right to preserve it, and the right to the Communists here, but I think our invoke the help of friends who are international posture could reflect a prepared and willing to ensure our little more subtlety to exploit the very survival, and enlist the sympathy of 4763 16 DECEMBER 1964 4764 those who, whilst not in a position to no better argument than for them to extend us material help can neverthe­ come and see us for what we are. less sympathise with our being Similarly, recently, the President of associated with European powers in Mali went to Jakarta. He had also our self-defence. The second is the agreed in principle to accept an invita­ presentation which the Indonesians tion to visit us. People do not want to are trying to project to the world, that force themselves upon us, unless they this is a stooge arrangement, a neo- feel sure that they are welcome, and I colonialist plot, that in "fact this is not think we ought to make it clear to the expression of the will of the them that they are welcome. In that people, that the government has been way we cannot lose, but to leave it to rigged up by the British administration the chance encounter is to throw away before it handed over powers to a important cards which we have, and stooge regime and that the intention the best card we have to play on the of the British was really to preserve Afro-Asian table is Malaysia as it is, their economic and military interests, compared and contracted with Indone­ worse, that we are in fact part of the sia—no better argument why Malaysia anti-Communist chain of bases stretch­ deserves to be supported and deserves ing from South Korea, Japan, to survive, deserves to be left in peace. Okinawa, South Vietnam, Thailand Any man visiting Jakarta, it should be and then Malaysia. Presented in that made known to him there is a warm light, sympathies may waver. welcome awaiting him in Kuala Lum­ I am not suggesting for one moment pur. We cannot lose. that we consider ourselves in that light. But I think we must be alive to Finally, Mr Chairman, Sir, I would the fact that Indonesian propaganda like to congratulate the Prime Minister effort is directed to this purpose and and his Deputy for having made a the reason why they have failed so far much greater effort, in the past year, is that on the actual contact with in getting across a more attractive neutral non-aligned leaders they have image of our young nation, that we are found this to be untrue, that, in fact, friends not only with the South Koreans Malaysia is the assertion of the will and the South Vietnamese, but also of the peoples of this region. We with all those who believe that emerged out of the British colonial independent countries, no matter how territories they once held in sway in small they are, have a right to be left South East Asia. in peace and a right to choose their own form of government, that by this We cannot lose by meeting them and posture of having embassies in Seoul knowing them, and I see no surer way of and South Vietnam, we are serving convincing them than by getting them notice on the world that we believe to visit us. If they cannot, then we will that if your neighbour is a Communist, have to visit them. And I think two he has no right either by subversion opportunities were lost recently. One, or by military might to overcome you. President Tsiranana of Malagasi, who I think it is a very useful posture, went through to the Philippines, who because it may well be that as the is very close in his views on interna­ battle lines are re-arranged in the tional affairs to that of the Honourable course of the next decade, we may find Prime Minister. The President of the ourselves eventually in as uncomfort­ Philippines went out of his way, after able a position as the South Viet­ a visit to Washington for President namese and the South Koreans. Sir, I Kennedy's burial, to drop in at Malagasi would not like to be misunderstood and got this visit arranged. He agreed that I am suggesting that we close in principle to visit us, probably at the down our embassies. What I am saying same time as he was going to the is, having made that stand, we should Philippines. It is true that we had no also let it be known that we would representation there, neither has he prefer to have forms of government representation here, but I think some far more liberal, far more democratic, effort should have been made, because far more tolerant than the regimes in 4765 16 DECEMBER 1964 4766 Korea or South Vietnam, but such a policy, and we have made a success of tolerant democratic regime is only it. Our standing in this world, I think, possible when your neighbour leaves is quite high, as has been said by quite you in peace. And, on that note, I a number of Honourable Members hope the Honourable Prime Minister here. I think the Opposition does not will find it possible, in spite of the like the company with whom we mix stringencies of his budget, to make a and the world in which we live today. better effort on the African continent To the Opposition Members from the in the coming year. We not only want Socialist Front, the world they would to say they are friends, but we want like us to live in is the world in which to give a demonstration that our senti­ there may be mob—and that is, per­ ments are with them. haps, the Eastern world, or the Eastern bloc. However, this is well understood. Dr Tan Chee Khoon: Tuan Penge- Nevertheless, I say that what we are rusi, saya bangun untok .... doing now is quite in keeping with our The Prime Minister: Is the Honour­ policy. In this respect, I do not able Member going to reply? Could suppose that the fact that we mix up I wind up since it concerns my with our friends, should cause very Ministry? much concern to the Honourable Member, because in this world there Dr Tan Chee Khoon: But I have are many other small countries, simi­ the prerogative to wind up the debate larly placed as ourselves, who also since I moved the amendment. have the right and the freedom to choose their friends. For that reason, Mr Chairman: Yes. You will have we find that countries closeby to us the chance of winding up. have thought it better to be linked up The Prime Minister: The Honourable with the communist world—and in that Member has the right to wind up, but respect I think they have a right to I have got to wind up for my side. choose their friends, and I do not think (Laughter). Many things have been we should criticise them for that, be­ said which require my reply, and so cause each country in this world, each I would like to take this opportunity small country, has to think of the ways to reply to the Honourable Member and means to preserve its existence; who made this proposal. and one of the means that we feel would preserve our existence, guarantee In the first place, he has suggested our independence and sovereignty, is that the motion which he has brought to mix with the world who are up in this House might be thought as sincerely interested in our existence, an offence against me. I can tell the and for that reason we have more or Honourable Mover of the motion that less identified ourselves with, what we I do not take this as an offence at all. call, the western world and with the He wants to cut my pay by one dollar, neutral countries. but in fact, I am not even paid a cent as the Minister of External Affairs, (Laughter) and I do it really for the They say they want us to be more love of the job—I think it would be friendly, to get more involved in the quite truthful to say that I like this job Afro-Asian politics. Well, I am not such a lot that I am willing to do it saying that we are not doing all that, without any pay. So, the proposal to but it is not quite possible to mix with cut my pay is a waste of time. all the Afro-Asian countries; some of them have thrown in their lot with the The Honourable Member takes the Communist countries and some of opportunity to air his views on matters them live very much their own exis­ of foreign policy and in that aspect I tence without indicating any feeling take cognizance of his motion. I am that they want to get mixed up with doing it, as I said, for the love of the the countries in this part of Asia. But job, and I am happy to do it. I con­ as the member from Menglembu has sider the policy, which we have been quite rightly said, we should not really following all these years, as the right make too much of that. We should not, 4767 16 DECEMBER 1964 4768

for instance, go on our bended knees set up diplomatic relations with all to ask to be welcomed by all these these countries which the Honourable friends; we should not in fact sacrifice Prime Minister of Singapore has our prestige and dignity in order to be suggested. welcomed into the fold of some of So in pursuing our independent these countries. We have got to be, I policy, we are guided by our national think, a little more independent and aspirations and our needs within the we have got to be a little bit more framework of the promotion and dignified. After all, we are a sovereign maintenance of world peace, good independent country ourselves. But our relations with all countries who believe foreign policy really shows quite in democracy and in the policy of live clearly that we support freedom and and let live. We were the first country, we support democracy and so we work perhaps you might remember, that with any and every country which entered into an agreement with Indo­ agrees with those principles. In my nesia, an agreement of friendship, an humble opinion, the confusion which agreement by which both countries the Honourable Member from Batu agreed to work in the interests of peace mentioned exists more in his imagina­ and in the interests of friendship; and tion than in fact. If he had devoted latterly at Manila we agreed to work perhaps a little bit more time to the for the common good of this region of study of our foreign relations, he Asia—the Maphilindo which has been would have found that we have been mentioned. One aspect of it is the very consistent throughout in our agreement by Indonesia and the Philip­ foreign policy. We have set up diplo­ pines to abide by the findings of the matic relations with nearly 25 countries Secretary-General of the United and these countries are from Europe Nations. When it came to the time to and Asia and we have found out that abide by it, they refused because the having relations with these countries decision happened to go against them. has been of great help to us. So it is only after the territories of Singapore, Sarawak and Sabah had The Honourable Prime Minister of agreed to join us, and join us of their Singapore suggested that we should own accord, that the Indonesians have make more friends, the right friends decided to turn against us. And with according to his views, and that we that, unfortunately, we had to break off should not give too much thought to diplomatic relations with them and those friends that don't matter. But I also with our other friend and partner say that our capacity to make friends in ASA, the Philippines. After the is inexhaustible. What is exhaustible is breaking up of diplomatic relations our resources, resources in money, and after the confrontation, Indonesia resources in manpower, and because of then decided to turn every country in that, we have not been able to set up Europe and in Africa against us and our missions in some of the countries they worked hard to prevent us from with which we want to set up diplo­ being admitted into the non-aligned matic relations. In the same way, you bloc and into the Afro-Asian Con­ will find that there is not even one ference which will be held next year mission in this country from the black in Algeria. African countries. I presume it is for the same reason, i.e., they have not got I would like to mention here for the the men and they have not got the benefit of the Honourable Members money. From Africa we have got only and for the information of those who one mission here at the moment, that do not know that in October 1962, the of the United Arab Republic. But all President of Indonesia wrote to us and the same, it has been our desire that in asked us to co-sponsor and support time, with the expansion of our Minis­ their claim for the holding of an Afro- try, with the ability to get more men Asian Conference in Indonesia. We and perhaps with the ability to get were unable to support their claim, more money without being severely because the first Afro-Asian Conference criticised for it, we might be able to was held in Bandoeng. So we thought 4769 16 DECEMBER 1964 4770 it would be only right and proper that we were the first, the very first, to take other countries, such as those in Africa, up the fight against the iniquity and should be given the privilege of hold­ injustice of apartheid (Applause), and ing this Afro-Asian Conference; if not we were the first to get South Africa Africa, at least another Asian country. expelled from the Commonwealth. We But for Indonesia to hold the Afro- were the first to carry out the boycott Asian Conference twice was in our of South African goods (Applause). mind not quite correct. So, if we were However, while we had adhered strictly then important enough for them to to the policy, unfortunately, our friends invite us to co-sponsor this move to in Singapore, to our horror and disgust, hold the Afro-Asian Conference in had allowed South African goods to Indonesia, then I suppose we should be flow into its own gateway; and in the in the eyes of the world important same way we were astounded and enough to be admitted into this Afro- horrified to find out, after the creation Asian Conference which is going to be of Malaysia, that there had been in held in Algeria. For Indonesia to do Singapore a South African Trade Com­ all this work to block our entry is a mission. Well, this, I think, is not quite mischievous act, an act done by an right. For one to come out now to enemy, an enemy not of Malaysia but suggest that we should go all out to I consider it as the enemy of all the make ourselves presentable to the Afro- free countries of the world. Just be­ Asian countries, to make ourselves cause they are in dispute with us, they welcome to the Afro-Asian countries, consider that we have no right to be while at the same time to allow the present at the Afro-Asian Conference. greatest enemy of Asian and African If the Afro-Asian Conference is going people to set up their Trade Commis­ to mean anything, if it is going to sion here, to allow their goods to come assess the opinions and views of the in here, while the rest of the Afro-Asian Afro-Asian countries in respect of countries have banned all these goods, world affairs, then by right, without is not quite the right thing to do. going on our bended knees, we should Therefore, how can we reconcile this be admitted into this Conference. No matter in this august Assembly—the country has any right to deny us Singapore representative talk rather admission into this Conference, because glibly about our relations with the we are a member of the United Afro-Asian countries when behind our Nations and we are an independent back this is being done? and free Asian country (Applause). Enche' Lee Kuan Yew: On a point Some members perhaps suggested of information, Sir—Do I understand that these Afro-Asian countries are from the tenor of the Prime Minister's neutral. I would say that in all respects speech that he intends to stop the we too are neutral. The only time when export of about $57 million worth of we are not neutral is when we have Federation goods to South Africa? reason to oppose the aggression of one The Prime Minister: Well, I think power against another, and that is only our first concern, our first considera­ right and for that reason the United tion, should be our loyalty to this Nations has come into being. nation and to the cause which this nation has espoused (Applause), and Now, the Honourable Member from not the question of the millions of Singapore has criticised our foreign dollars which flow in as a result of policy on the ground that we are un­ allowing such South African goods to friendly to the African countries, or come in. When it happened less friendly towards these countries. I have explained that we have tried to Enche' Lee Kuan Yew: Mr Speaker, be friendly, for the last thing we would Sir, on a point of clarification—I think like to do is to go on our bended knees the Honourable Prime Minister may and ask to be welcomed (Applause). If not have understood me. I think this the Honourable Member cares to look export of $50-odd million is for exports into the facts, he will have found that from Malaya and not from Singapore. 4771 16 DECEMBER 1964 4772

Dr Ng Kam Poh (Teluk Anson): cerned, according to them, there is no Mr Speaker, Sir, on a point of clarifica­ love lost. tion. We only export; we do not The Honourable Member also com­ import. They both export and import. mented on the establishment here of a (Applause) (SOME HONOURABLE MEM­ consulate by Taiwan. I am afraid there BERS: Hear! Hear!) That is the has been quite a lot of misunderstanding difference. about this consulate. He made it out As for Sabah and Sarawak, Mr as if it were a recognition of Taiwan, Speaker, Sir, they are in the Alliance. or as if it were a diplomatic mission. (Addressing Bornean Members) I am That is not so. The consulate is set sure that they will co-operate with us. up for the purpose of facilitating travel The P.A.P. is in the Opposition how­ and business dealings with them. ever loyal it may claim to be (Laughter). The Honourable Member from The Prime Minister: Honourable Singapore also made quite a big thing Mr Speaker, Sir, I will not say any of visits by members of this Govern­ more on that, because it is bound to ment, by people from this country, to create a little bit of hot discussion, and Taiwan. As far as I am concerned, so I go on. I thank my Honourable there is nothing wrong in anybody friend from my side who has spoken visiting any country, so long as that quite frankly about this. country opens its door to such visits. Why should it be wrong to visit Taiwan Now, the Singapore Member has also any more than it is to visit Japan? referred to our representatives abroad (AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: MOSCOW?) as being politically discredited, or that Well, to visit Moscow, I think, is discredited politicians are being sent wrong (Laughter), After all, this is a abroad. According to him, it is wrong free country and everybody has a right for us to use them as our representa­ to choose. Whatever attraction there is tives, and so I would like to tell the in Taiwan I have not the privilege to Honourable Member of this House visit Taiwan, and so I do not know. that the so-called discredited politi­ One day, when I have a little time, I cians have done extremely good work, will find out from some of my collea­ both in Germany and in Australia gues, who have visited Taiwan, and (Applause) and because of their good if the attraction is nice, if the country work our prestige in these two countries is nice, the climate is good, I may, in have risen pretty high. They are very, my old age, perhaps take a little very popular with members of the holiday there. But let us not make this diplomatic circles. As a result of their a matter of debate in this House. good work, I would like to remind Honourable Members that Australia So, what we have done, as I said, in has gone all out to help us in our the setting up of consular relationship trouble with Indonesia and they have with Taiwan is not intended to create sent us not only planes but men and the K.M.T. feeling here, because those arms as well. For the same reason, I who are KMTs and have become rather think Germany has also made a very involved in it, whatever we do we generous offer in terms of a cash loan cannot help to eradicate that K.M.T. to help us over our difficulties as a result feeling from them—in the same way of the Indonesian confrontation. I say we cannot do anything to eradicate the that this is due in a very large measure communist feeling from some of the to the friendship and goodwill that people here. They are entitled to their these countries bear towards us—and thoughts; they are entitled to their this is no doubt due to the good work political ideologies. But what we are put in by these so-called discredited doing is for the convenience of the politicians. I quite well understand the people of this country who wish to P.A.P's objection to these two gentle­ travel to that country. men, because the P.A.P. happens to be I heard what was said in this House in the Opposition. As far as I know about the visit of the Minister of from them, as far as they are con­ External Affairs from Taiwan—it was 4773 16 DECEMBER 1964 4774 said that when he returned I drank a of the attack made on Egypt by the toast to the President, Chiang Kai- Indonesian newspaper. If it had not shek. I think I might have done that— been a success, the Indonesian paper to be quite truthful he is one of the would have said so, but instead they leaders in this world whose memory attacked the United Arab Republic. will be perpetuated after his death. Now, on the question of the Defence After all, whatever he is today, he has Treaty, my colleagues have enlightened done so much for his own country and the House in respect of this matter, but for his own people. let me stress here that this Treaty has I consider the attack on Vietnam and been a sore point with Communist Korea is rather unfair. I think those China and with Indonesia. You may countries, including ourselves, have well understand the reason for it, suffered as a result of militant commu­ because without this Treaty we would nism. We have common problems with have been overrun by these two them. It is logical, therefore, for coun­ countries a long, long time ago. Of tries with common problems to have course, this Treaty can be revoked, as common sympathy for one another. So, has been explained by my colleague the I think it should be in our interest to Honourable the Deputy Prime Minis­ make friends with them and, I think, ter—any time at the will of either party. I take great pleasure in calling these However, in the interests of this countries our very, very good friends. country and in the interests of the people of this country and their welfare Now, on the question of Afro-Asian and their security, as long as the feeling towards us, or rather the African Alliance Party is in power, this Treaty countries feeling towards us, I had will be honoured in the observance for only the possible fortune, the opportu­ the well-being and security, as I say, nity, to meet them at the Common­ of the people here in this country. wealth Prime Ministers' Conference. There were opinions expressed one way In connection with the Defence or the other, but if the Honourable Treaty we have with Britain too, it was Member would refer to the Press com­ suggested by the Honourable Member munique issued after the Conference, from Kelantan Hilir that because we he would find that all these countries, have a Treaty with Britain we are whether they are from Africa or from bound to be despised by some countries Asia, really expressed support for us. in the world as being less indepen­ dent—so he said—and that British Then, there is another matter which bases are here to perpetuate British Honourable Members are rather in­ influence in this part of the world. clined to forget, and that is that we According to the Honourable Member's have given support—a lot of support— argument, then all those countries that to the Arab countries. I mentioned have relations or have foreign armies it during Question Time but some in their countries are less dependent Honourable Members seemed to revel in the eyes of the world. But, let me in misunderstanding and so decided not quote just a few countries for the to hear what I had to say then. We benefit of Honourable Members, and had given help in many things to the let me see whether they are less Arab countries. We had given financial independent or fully independent, help to refugees, who were victims of because they happen to have foreign flood, victims of aggression, or victims troops in their respective country. One of action of Israel. As a result, we of them is England—wherever you go, have received quite a lot of support you find American troops there; and from the Arab countries. The Honour­ the other one is France—I do not know able Member from Menglembu, I think, whether it is independent just because has suggested that the visit of our they happen to have NATO troops Deputy Prime Minister had not really there. Further, you get Canada, you achieved the result that it was suggested get Philippines, you get Thailand, you to be. I, personally, think it was a get Japan, and you get Germany. I can success. I think it was a success, because cite so many countries, but I think it 4775 16 DECEMBER 1964 4776 is going to take a little bit of the time when the time comes for us all to go of this House if I were to mention for a little holiday. So to suggest that them all. Let me inform the Honour­ we are tyrants because we did not able Member that we are no less deal with the motions before this dependent just because we agree to have House is, to say the least, rather British bases here. We do so for our unfair. own benefit, for our own purpose, and we can terminate that Treaty at any On the subject of our non-admission to non-aligned countries, this, I may time we want to. say, is the work of the Indonesians. If you will study the Cairo criteria The Honourable Mover of this adopted at a conference, it will be motion has charged the Alliance Party seen that this country comes within the for being tyrants just because of our meaning of "non-aligned". We are not majority. Our majority is not due to unduly worried because their declara­ our work but due to the faith and tion took notice of our position when confidence which the people of this it stated—I would just read one line country have in us. Let me tell the because we have not got much time: Honourable Member that the last "States must abstain from all use of threat thing we would want to do is to abuse or force directed against the territorial this majority, or abuse our position as integrity and political independence of other the Party in power. We pay heed to States. A situation brought about by the every constructive opinion that has threat or use of force shall not be recognised. And, in particular, the established frontiers been put forward in this House from of States shall be inviolable. Accordingly, time to time. I have been asked every State must abstain from interfering in whether before the end of this Session the affairs of other States, whether openly we would deal with all the motions or insidiously, or by means of subversion and the various forms of political, economic and that have been carried forward from military pressure. Frontier dispute should be one Session of Parliament to another. settled by peaceful means." Let me tell you that it is not our fault that these motions have not been dealt It is because of this declaration that with. It is because the Members have Soekarno left the Conference in a been so enthusiastic in dealing with huff. the motions before them that they Lastly—I would like to finish with have forgotten that there are other this as I do not want to have to motions that have to be dealt with— continue with this—the Honourable and I do not think that in this matter Member has charged that during the the Members of the Opposition is any nine years of our Government in less to be blamed for it. However, power there has not been any full there has been reserved a day for these dress debate on foreign policy. I realise motions, and now I hope you will that the Honourable Member has not take up so much time. On foreign been here for this year only and so relations so much has been said today he did not know what took place that perhaps you might think of with­ before. Let me tell him, however, that drawing that motion and save the there had been debates—many times time of this House in having to come in this House. In 1962, we had a very up with all this again. If we allow any long debate as a result of the Brunei period of time for any particular rebellion; then again, we had debates motion, the enthusiastic Members of on foreign affairs from time to time; this House, who felt they are not paid and, therefore, it is not right to say just to keep mum, they all would like that we have never had debates on to have their say—naturally enough, foreign affairs. Every year in the for after all they represent their people Speech from the Throne, His Majesty and they would like to have their say had a say on foreign matters which in in this House; and that is how this itself invites debates from the Members debate has been going on and on for of the House. Therefore, to say that a long time. So, if we take so much in nine years the Alliance had not time over the Budget, I think the afforded an opportunity for a full meeting of this House will never end, debate on foreign policy is, to say the 4777 16 DECEMBER 1964 4778

least, unjustified. I would ask the Mr Chairman, Sir, in this House, a Honourable Member really to check friend of mine has said that I often his facts before making statements serve as a lightning-conductor, that like that in this House. whenever I open my loud mouth like Cassius Clay, the new heavy-weight Finally, Sir, I do not think I can champion, I seem to attract lightning deal any more with this matter, but and that I simply generate heat. Even I would like to thank Honourable then, Mr Chairman, Sir, what I said Members of this House, Members of last evening did not justify the our Party, who have defended our avalanche of abuse that was heaped policy very well indeed, either in upon me. Sir, I do know that in English or in Malay. (Applause). politics one must take the smooth with Mr Speaker: When this House con­ the rough. As I have stated early in venes again at 4.30 p.m. I shall ask the my very first speech, I am not exactly Honourable Member for Batu to make a political virgin, and I do not think his reply, and then put the question that all of us in this House, when to the House. The sitting is suspended standing up to put forward our case, till 4.30 p.m. will strictly adhere to Queensberry rules. Many in this House have Sitting suspended at 1 p.m. adopted Siamese-style boxing where one uses one's hands and legs. Sir, be Sitting resumed at 4 p.m. that as it may, the abusive language used last evening was most uncalled (Mr Speaker in the Chair) for, and I shall treat the abusive language and the accusations with the House immediately resolved itself contempt that they deserve—I shall into Committee of Supply. not reply to them. However, Mr Chairman, Sir, I wish to state that my Debate resumed. Christian name is David and, like the Dr Tan Chee Khoon (Batu): Tuan David in the biblical story, I am Pengerusi, saya bangun untok men- capable of using a sling and to use jawab tudohan2 kapada saya. Tuan that to membaling batu. Pengerusi, pada malam tadi ada 2 Mr Chairman, Sir, in contrast with beberapa Ahli Yang Berhormat dari the speeches from the Alliance back­ Partai Perikatan yang telah menudoh benchers last evening and night, I am saya, ada sa-orang berkata Partai saya very happy to say that the speakers ia-itu Partai Socialist Front Ra'ayat this morning, almost all of them and, Malaya ia-lah sa-buah partai yang in particular, the Government front­ kominis dan lagi sa-orang Ahli Yang benchers who participated in the Berhormat ada memanggil saya Suara debate, took a very objective attitude Indonesia, Suara Jakarta, di-Dewan and presented the Government's case Yang Berhormat ini dan beliau ada in a very sober, calm and dignified memanggil juga, kalau saya tidak manner. In particular, I also wish to salah, 3 kali beliau ada memanggil congratulate the Honourable Member saya kepala batu. for Kota Bahru Hilir for the dignified Tuan Pengerusi, jika mereka hendak way in which he has presented it. menyerang saya sa-chara personal, There was no need, when putting for­ saya hendak-lah memberi tahu kapada ward your case, to indulge in calling mereka, di-kawasan saya ia-lah names and in mud-slinging. I have Kawasan Batu, ada sa-buah batu giling been sent by the people of Batu to this dan di-sana-lah ada banyak alat2 batu House not to indulge in these antics, dan walau pun saya sa-orang kepala and that is why, as I have said, I do batu, saya boleh membaling batu. not propose to reply to the abuse last evening. Tuan Pengerusi, sekarang saya meminta keizinan Tuan Pengerusi, I propose now to touch very briefly untok membuat uchapan saya dalam on some of the points raised by the bahasa Inggeris. speakers this morning. The Honourable 4779 16 DECEMBER 1964 4780

Deputy Prime Minister stated that Government would like to have us there was no necessity for me to cause believe that it is so. The member from so much kachau, that there was no Menglembu has said that there have necessity for this one-dollar cut and been unilateral statements on the suc­ that I could have had my say while cess of this trip and that there has been the King's Speech was being debated no declaration of success on the other and during the Budget debate. I beg side. Be that as it may, Mr Chairman, to submit that at these two occasions Sir, the success or failure of this mission although one could bring up any theme is yet to be seen. The junketing across that one wants to develop, these are not the African continent by the Honour­ exactly the appropriate times for bring­ able the Prime Minister of Singapore ing up specific issues, like the foreign was also proclaimed to be a success— affairs. In the course of the King's everybody said it was a success—but Speech, he dwells through the whole if it was a success, how come we were gambit of Government and if one pays not invited to the Conference of the attention to only one particular aspect Non-aligned Nations at Cairo? I hope like the foreign affairs, one cannot go the Deputy Prime Minister's visit has very far and to criticise that a lot of been a success and that we will be able people want to have their say. As for to follow it up, but whether it is a the Budget Speech, although it provides success or not will be judged on for the fact that one could say any­ whether we will be invited to the next thing about the Government, I also conference at Algiers. submit that that is not an appropriate occasion for touching on specific Mr Chairman, Sir, the member for subjects like defence, economic policy, Bukit Bintang, who is not here this foreign affairs, because the Minister afternoon, stated that the Alliance of Finance presents his Budget and we foreign policy—I do not know whether in this House should, as far as possi­ he has authority to say it—is founded ble, confine ourselves to the financial on the twin pillars of democratic co­ aspects of his Speech; otherwise, when existence and non-alignment. If I am he comes to reply, he rubs his hands wrong, he could correct me—but with glee and says, "There is no need unfortunately he is not here this for me to say anything because all evening. Now, the Honourable Member the Members of this House have had for Bukit Bintang says that the Alliance their say in all topics under the sun foreign policy is founded on democra­ except on finance; consequently, there tic co-existence and non-alignment. If is no need for me to reply." You will that is so, I submit, what is the agree that foreign affairs have nothing difference between my advocating co­ to do with finance except that we need existence and non-alignment in this a financier for our Missions abroad. House? I do not see the difference, So, Mr Chairman, Sir, I do submit that that is, if the Honourable Member for these two occasions, the Royal Address Bukit Bintang has authority to speak and the Budget Speech, cannot be on behalf of the Government, I leave used by Members on either side of it to the Government to decide. the House as an occasion to debate Mr Chairman, Sir, much play has specific issues, and it is for this pur­ been made about South Vietnam and pose that I have proposed this cut of South Korea. I have stated what are one dollar—not to have a full-scale the fears of quite a large number of debate but to focus attention on it— us. Despite our diplomatic relations in the hope that the Government in with South Vietnam, it is well known future will of its own accord bring that all is not well in South Vietnam. forth to this House specific issues for Otherwise there would not be such debate. massive injections of American aid, both military and financial. But despite Mr Chairman, Sir, the Deputy Prime all this aid, we see the Vietcong Minister has also stated that his advancing closer and closer to Saigon mission to North Africa has been a and the South Vietnam regime appears tremendous success. No doubt, the to be tottering and may well cease to 4781 16 DECEMBER 1964 4782 exist in the very near future. Mr Finance Minister will vouch for. It is Chairman, Sir, what I objected to in very simple. our mutual Defence Treaty with Great The Minister of Finance (Enche' Tan Britain is the clause "for the preserva­ Siew Sin): Mr Chairman, Sir, may I tion of peace in South-East Asia". rise on a point of clarification? I think Britain might invoke that clause to the Honourable Member from Batu is prop us such a regime and if we do not probably fully conversant with the not re-think about that Defence Treaty, facts, but since my Honourable friend then we willy-nilly may well be drawn the Minister of Commerce and Industry into a global war which we have is not here, I might say a word or two. nothing to do with. South Vietnam is It is correct, as has been stated by the so far away from this country. That is Honourable Member from Bukit Bin- why I said in my speech that this tang, that the States of Malaya do treaty should not be used for propping export to South Africa. We do so up corrupt, inefficient regimes that do merely because it suits us—I mean, it not have the popular support of the obviously pays us to sell to South people and it may involve us in situa­ Africa, but, and this is the operative tions which we do not envisage. part of the exercise, we do not allow Mr Chairman, Sir, the Prime Minister South African imports into the States of Singapore has asked the Government of Malaya while Singapore does, and for a reappraisal of our foreign policy I think there is a whale of a difference in the light of confrontation, and that between the two attitudes. is a thing that I heartily agree with. We should have, what he calls, this Enche' Abdul Rahim Ishak (Singa­ new posture. We have proclaimed that pore): On a point of clarification . . . Malaysia is not a neo-colonialist plot Mr Chairman: The Minister of and we are an independent nation. Finance has just clarified. That is all right if we proclaim loud and wide. But we should consider, as Enche' Abdul Rahim Ishak: On a the Prime Minister of Singapore stated, further clarification on his clarification. going and selling this idea not only to Mr Chairman, Sir, the member for the Afro-Asian group but also to what Telok Anson this morning used I think he calls the iron curtain countries—and a little bit of histrionics to show that he singled out Yugoslavia in parti­ Singapore imported South African cular—and I would say that if we are goods, which is correct, and the prepared to send a trade mission to Minister of Finance has just admitted Yugoslavia, to Rumania, to Poland and that the States in Malaya had exported to Russia itself to sell rubber, why to the tune of $57 million a year to can't we send a mission to them and South Africa. But, of course, both of explain our point of view. That does them are trying to show that there is not mean that we approve of the morally no difference. I will tell them Communist regimes, but it may help what the difference morally is. The to create the new posture that the $57 million worth of exports go into, Prime Minister of Singapore postulated. among other things, the production of rubber tyres used by South African The Singapore Government has been armoured cars to suppress the black castigated time and again, I think quite Africans in South Africa, whereas rightly, for their trade with South probably the importation of fruits, Africa. But it is of significance that the oranges and such things, go towards Prime Minister of Singapore stated that the food of the workers in Singapore that trade amounted to $57 million and and Malaya. This is for the knowledge that most of it came from the Federa­ of the member for Telok Anson who, tion. Now, if the Central Government incidentally, I understand is a doctor. is really earnest about its anti-apartheid That is the moral difference. policy, then why should not the Central Government take steps to see that this Dr Tan Chee Khoon: Mr Chairman, trade does not flow south of the Sir, it looks again that, like last Causeway? It is very simple as the evening, I might get caught between 4783 16 DECEMBER 1964 4784

two fires (Laughter). I have no wish have a chance to have a say, otherwise to be in the middle when two giants I may not well have a chance to have fight. There you are! We have this my say on foreign affairs in this clarification that while they are willing country. to trade with the devil, they are not Mr Chairman, Sir, the Honourable willing to buy and they justify their Prime Minister also stated that full stand. Much the same way, as the time has been given to Members of Minister of Finance knows, without the this House to debate on anything they support of the Communist countries like, and he brought in particularly which import our rubber, the world these two occasions: the Royal Ad­ price of rubber will probably fall to dress and the Budget Session. I have 40 cents a pound. That is a well-known already, I hope, disproved that motion fact of life that we must face: unless that we can discuss and debate specific we get the support of Communist issues during the Royal Address and countries in our sale of rubber, we will the Budget Session. I think these two be in a very bad shape and this occasions are not appropriate for us Budget may not reach even $1,000 to debate specific issues. million. Mr Chairman, Sir, the Honourable Mr Chairman, Sir, may I now come Prime Minister also stated that foreign to comment very briefly on the speech affairs have been debated on many made by the Honourable Prime occasions during the last Parliament. Minister; what is more, I must thank But none other than the Honourable him for the assurance that he will, in Member from Singapore had stated this current session, give the Opposi­ that he had read through the parlia­ tion at least one day—the last day, I mentary proceedings since 1959 and suppose, of this session—to debate my had found very little reference to any three motions. I am very glad that the debate on foreign policy during the Government had at last thought it fit last five years. Mr Chairman, Sir, I to give the Opposition some time to have a complete set of proceedings discuss private motions. For the benefit from 1952, since the F.M.S. days, of the Government benches, I shall not though I have not caught up with 1959 make use of all the three motions yet—I am slowly starting with 1952 standing in my name, but I shall only and 1953—and I must confess that want to discuss that on Kuala Lum­ now there has been no reference to any pur, and I shall withdraw the other foreign affairs matters. So, I think my two motions. I do hope that the amendment to propose this cut to focus Government will continue to take attention on foreign affairs is more cognizance of the fact that we on this than amply justified, in view of the side of the House also can, and wish, fact that so much time has been spent to bring matters before this House and on it and that so many other speakers that we come here not only to discuss also would want to speak on it. matters pertaining to the Government but also to discuss those matters per­ Finally, Mr Chairman, Sir, it is taining to what our electorate would astounding that the Honourable Prime like us to bring to the notice of this Minister has stated that he admitted House. that he had toasted to President Chiang Kai-Shek during a dinner that he had Mr Chairman, Sir, the Honourable with the Foreign Minister of Formosa. Prime Minister also made a great play Mr Chairman, Sir, this House will of this $1 cut. I think he was, perhaps, recollect that during, I think, the a little hurt that I have proposed this October session of the House I asked cut, but he knows very well that there the Honourable Prime Minister a is nothing personal about it. He knows question on the visit of the Foreign very well, and I hope Honourable Minister of Formosa and the Honour­ Members of this House also know very able Prime Minister then, with a calm well, that there is nothing personal in face, blandly told me that it was just that $1 cut. It is merely a parliamentary a social visit: he had a dinner and device for me to take the floor and there was nothing else. Now we know 4785 16 DECEMBER 1964 4786 that there was this toasting that might stantive motion. Mr Chairman, Sir, put us in a different light when the during the debate matter reaches the ears of the Afro- Dr Tan Chee Khoon: On, a point of Asian nations. Mr Chairman, Sir, this order, I thought the Honourable Prime is a thing that, perhaps, the Alliance Minister was going to wind up for the Government itself is not aware of the Government and that I was going to repercussions—the Honourable Mem­ ber from Singapore has already blared wind up on my own motion. I do not it forth, loud and bold, that our see how the Honourable Member for Honourable Prime Minister had Telok Anson should take over that toasted to the health of the Foreign role. Minister and to the health of President Mr Chairman: (To Dr Ng Kam Poh) Chiang Kai-Shek and that our Honour­ I am afraid because of the time left able Prime Minister has today stated I think it is better to let the reply that he had wished the President of come from the Minister. We have only Formosa long life and good health. half-an-hour left. Mr Chairman, Sir, Dr Ng Kam Poh: I will only take Enche' Tan Siew Sin: Mr Chairman, half-an-hour, I promise you, Mr Sir, may I clarify? (Mr Chairman Chairman, Sir. assents). The Honourable Member for Mr Chariman: Will you please sit Batu should get it straight that this down? visit of the Foreign Minister of For­ mosa was an unofficial visit and that (Dr Ng Kam Poh resumes his seat). the function which was held was an The Assistant Minister of Culture, unofficial function; so I do not think Youth and Sports (Engku Muhsein bin the Honourable Member should read Abdul Kadir): Dato' Pengerusi, dengan more into it. izin Dato', saya mohon supaya S. 21— Dr Tan Chee Khoon: Mr Chairman, Kementerian Luar Negeri berjumlah Sir, nowhere did I say that it was an $10,472,585 dan S. 22—Urusan Haji official visit. I only stated what the berjumlah $192,082 menjadi sa-baha- Honourable Prime Minister himself gian daripada Jadual. had stated. But be that as it may, I do Dalam memperkatakan S. 21 per- not wish to take much more of the untokan sa-banyak $10,472,585 ini time of this House. I think that in di-mana Dato' Pengerusi dan Ahli2 making this move of a cut of $1 in Yang Berhormat pesti sedar kedudok- the token salary of the Honourable an politik dunia ada-lah membawa Minister of External Affairs the pro­ akibat kapada kepentingan negeri ini ceedings that ensued had more than serta dasar2 luar negeri-nya sa-hingga justified my request. Thank you. Malaysia perlu, bukan sahaja mem- 2 Amendment put, and negatived. perhibatkan kegiatan diplomatik-nya, tetapi perlu menyibarkan usaha2 diplo- Heads S. 21 and S. 22— matik kapada negeri2 yang belum ada perwakilan. Ini di-sebabkan oleh dasar Mr Chairman: I now propose the pencherobohan yang di-jalankan oleh question that the sum of $10,472,585 Indonesia. for Head S. 21, Ministry of External Affairs, stand part of the Schedule. Perlu juga di-nyatakan di-sini, walau pun Kerajaan kita telah menjalankan The Assistant Minister of Youth, dasar berbaik2, tetapi Indonesia kian Culture and Sports (Engku Muhsein bin melanjutkan permusohan-nya terhadap Abdul Kadir): (Rises). Malaysia hingga melakukan pen­ 2 Dr Ng Kam Poh: (Rises). cherobohan sa-chara terang terhadap negeri ini. Jadi, sudah sa-wajar-nya-lah Mr Chairman: In view of the time tindakan yang tegas di-ambil untok left, do you wish to talk on this? menchegah pencherobohan terhadap Dr Ng Kam Poh: I will only take a kedaulatan negara dan usaha2 untok few minutes. I wish to speak on the sub­ memechah-belahkan perpaduan negara. 4787 16 DECEMBER 1964 4788

Dalam keadaan ini, usaha yang per- ulang Tiap2 Tahun dan Perbelanjaan tama dan penting yang perlu di-ambil Khas dengan membuat perbandingan ia-lah lapangan pertahanan. Usaha2 di-antara peruntokan bagi tahun 1965 dan ranchangan2 pertahanan yang di- dengan peruntokan yang telah di- bayangkan ini telah di-bentangkan bentangkan bagi tahun 1964. kapada Dewan ini oleh Yang Ber- hormat Menteri Pertahanan, tetapi Berkenaan dengan Gaji. usaha2 mempertahankan kedaulatan Perbelanjaan yang di-anggarkan negara Malaysia tidak-lah terletak sa- untok Gaji bagi tahun 1965 ber- mata2 di-atas pertahanan tentera sahaja. jumlah $5,861,325 berbanding dengan Banyak yang perlu di-jalankan di- $5,431,683 untok tahun 1964, ia-itu dalam lapangan diplomacy supaya tambahan perbelanjaan sa-banyak dasar muhibbah dan berbaik2 yang $429,642. Bertambah-nya peruntokan di-ikuti oleh Malaysia dapat di-fahami ini ada-lah di-sebabkan oleh pem- oleh berbagai2 negara di-dunia ini, dan bentokan Bahagian Penyelidekan di- tujuan2 yang sa-benar-nya di-sabalek Kementerian ini. Sa-bagaimana yang dasar pencherobohan negara tetangga di-jelaskan, peruntokan bagi Bahagian kita itu dapat di-buka. Oleh itu Kera- Penyelidekan ini sahaja, Pechahan- jaan telah menyertai berbagai2 per- kepala 1, Butiran (68) sampai (78) sidangan serta juga menghantar (halaman 282 sampai 283) berjumlah rombongan2 muhibbah ka-negara2 di- $333,459. Sa-bagaimana yang telah mana Malaysia belum lagi mengadakan di-nyatakan tadi, ranchangan dan hubongan2 diplomatik. tindakan diplomatik bagi Kerajaan ini telah bertambah2 sejak dua tahun yang Di-dalam Jawapan Bertulis kapada lalu. Saya telah menunjokkan tadi, satu soalan, Yang Teramat Mulia oleh kerana kedudokan antara-bangsa Perdana Menteri telah membayangkan 2 yang membawa akibat kapada negeri bahawa ranchangan sekarang sedang ini, Kerajaan terpaksa mengambil di-ator untok menubohkan beberapa bahagian di-dalam berbagai2 meshuarat perwakilan diplomatik di-Africa, antara-bangsa, baik berkenaan dengan sedangkan hal ini tidak ada di-bayang- kepentingan negara mahu pun ber­ kan dalam Anggaran Perbelanjaan bagi kenaan dengan perkara2 yang ber- Kementerian Luar Negeri untok tahun 2 2 hubong dengan teras dasar luar negeri 1965 ini. Sa-benar-nya, berbagai per- yang di-pegang oleh Malaysia. Untok sediaan telah di-ambil dan peruntokan menyediakan Kerajaan ini dalam usaha ini kelak akan di-minta dari Dewan menchampori berbagai meshuarat itu ini sa-sudah sahaja persediaan di- serta berbagai usaha diplomatik dari selesaikan. Pendek-nya, Tuan Penge- Kementerian ini ada-lah sewajar-nya rusi, dalam dua tahun yang lalu perlu sa-kali bahawa penyelidekan Kementerian Luar Negeri terpaksa 2 yang sesuai di-buat berkenaan dengan menambah berbagai ranchangan bagi berbagai2 perkara. Hingga kini usaha menchegah segala2 kesulitan yang 2 penyelidekan itu telah di-buat oleh timbul daripada keadaan ini. Per­ pegawai2 di-samping pekerjaan hari2 untokan kewangan tambahan terpaksa mereka di-lapangan diplomacy. Peker­ di-buat. Walau pun bagitu, sesuai jaan bagini memadai pada masa dengan dasar Kerajaan, perhatian yang Malaysia tidak banyak menghadhiri berat sentiasa di-ambil bagi mengechil- persidangan antara-bangsa, tetapi di- kan perbelanjaan. Peruntokan yang sebabkan kesebokan sekarang pegawai2 di-minta oleh Kementerian Luar Negeri yang menjalankan pekerjaan diplomacy telah di-buat bersesuaian dengan apa sa-hari2 tidak-lah dapat membuat apa2 yang telah di-nyatakan oleh Yang Ber- penyelidekan yang mendalam ber­ hormat Menteri Kewangan di-dalam kenaan dengan berbagai2 perkara Uchapan Belanjawan berkenaan dengan 2 antara-bangsa. Oleh itu penting sa-kali dasar berdikit . Kerajaan menubohkan alat2 yang Supaya lebeh jelas saya akan mem- sesuai bagi Penyelidekan Politik dan bentangkan sebab2 perbelanjaan itu Bahagian Penyelidekan sa-bagaimana mengikut tiga bahagian perbelanjaan, yang saya katakan tadi telah pun ia-itu Gaji, Lain2 Perbelanjaan Ber- di-tubohkan. 4789 16 DECEMBER 1964 4790

Lain2 perkara tambahan di-dalam luluskan bagi tahun 1964 ada-lah ber- Gaji ada-lah di-sebabkan oleh me- jumlah $570,000. Pada dasar-nya naikkan pangkat serta mengadakan tambahan ini ada-lah terdiri daripada: beberapa jawatan bagi memperkuatkan (a) Pechahan-kepala 2, Pentad­ kedudokan pentadbiran sekarang. Di- biran, lebeh kurang $384,000 2 bawah ini di-bentangkan perkara yang (b) Pechahan-kepala 17, Baha­ bertambah serta kepentingan2-nya. gian Singapura, lebeh kurang 6,300 (c) Pechahan-kepala 21, Pentad­ Akibat bertambah ranchangan, maka biran (Perwakilan seberang pekerjaan di-Bahagian Politik telah laut), lebeh kurang 67,000 berlipat ganda baik jumlah atau (d) Pechahan-kepala 25, Sewa tanggong-jawab-nya sa-hingga pegawai2 dan Chukai (Perwakilan pada tahun itu tidak dapat memberi seberang laut), lebeh kurang 111,000 khidmat2 sa-penoh-nya. Ada-lah tidak boleh bagi sa-suatu Bahagian yang Tambahan Berjumlah ... $568,300 bertanggong-jawab bagi perkara2 yang besar dalam kedudokan "complex" Pechahan-kepala 2, Pentadbiran. yang berlaku di-dunia hari ini dan 2 di-uruskan sa-penoh-nya oleh satu Akibat daripada bertambah -nya usaha2 diplomatic tentu sa-kali per­ Ketua Penolong Setia-usaha. Tidak 2 perlu di-tegaskan benar tentang keper- belanjaan bagi mengirim surat diplo- luan penting bagi memperkuatkan matik dari Kementerian ka-Perwakilan Bahagian Politik. Jadi perlu sa-kali Seberang Laut kita bertambah. Bagitu Bahagian Politik di-bahagi kapada dua juga, akibat daripada kedudokan dunia bahagian dengan di-uruskan oleh yang berubah dengan chepat-nya Ketua2 Penolong Setia-usaha—kedua2- perbelanjaan bagi taligeram pun me- nya Tingkatan-tertinggi "F" tidak-lah ningkat naik supaya Perwakilan kita di-Seberang Laut akan dapat di-beri lagi satu, ia-itu penambahan satu 2 jawatan Ketua Penolong Setia-usaha dengan sa-chepat-nya ma'lumat ber- kenaan dengan dasar Kerajaan ter- (Politik) di-bawah Butiran (i). Oleh 2 2 kerana sebab2 bagini, maka beberapa hadap perkara yang timbul. Kedua jawatan tambahan perlu di-adakan, butiran ini telah menyebabkan ia-itu—2 Penolong Setia-usaha di- bertambah perbelanjaan sa-jumlah bawah Butiran (10), 3 Pegawai Kerja $380,000 di-bawah Pechahan-kepala 2, di-bawah Butiran (15) dan 4 Juru- berkenaan dengan Pentadbiran. trengkas di-bawah Butiran (27) Butiran kechil (ii) dari Pechahan-kepala 1. Pechahan-kepala 17, Pengangkutan (Bahagian Singapura). Satu jawatan tambahan untok Pejabat Chawangan Singapura di- Pegawai Kerja Kanan, Butiran (13) tubohkan pada Hari Malaysia untok ada-lah di-ranchangkan untok tahun menjadi perhubongan dan mengendali- 1965 bagi mengawasi berbagai masa- kan perkara consular serta wakil2 per- alah yang berhubong dengan perkhid- dagangan di-Singapura. Perhubongan matan dan pentadbiran umum-nya Chawangan Singapura di-perlukan yang kini sedang bertambah akibat mengikut chara2 diplomacy menemui dari banyak-nya pekerjaan pentadbiran 2 2 berbagai orang kenamaan serta per­ dan lain pekerjaan di-Pejabat Besar, wakilan2 luar negeri yang melawat 3 jawatan tambahan bagi kerani G.C.S. negara itu. Ada-lah nyata sa-lepas Butiran (28) Pechahan (ii) telah di- pengalaman sa-tahun bahawa per­ masokkan untok tahun 1965. belanjaan pengangkutan untok men- 2 2 2 jalankan perkara ini ada-lah lebeh Lain Perbelanjaan, Berulang Tiap tinggi daripada peruntokan yang telah Tahun. di-luluskan pada tahun 1964 ber­ Kini tiba-lah saya kapada Butiran jumlah $11,660. Pengajian telah di-buat di-bawah Perbelanjaan, Berulang Tiap2 dan berdasarkan kapada pengalaman Tahun. Penambahan seluroh-nya bagi ada-lah di-ranchangkan bahawa per­ peruntokan tahun 1965 berbanding untokan bagi tahun 1965 sa-mesti-nya dengan peruntokan yang telah di- di-tambah jadi $17,932. 4791 16 DECEMBER 1964 4792

Pechahan-kepala 21, Pentadbiran (Per­ di-tambah di-bawah Pechahan-kepala wakilan Seberang Laut). 36. Peruntokan tambahan juga di-minta Penambahan lebeh kurang ber- untok membeli mesin saifer supaya perhubongan taligeram tentang per­ jumlah $67,000 di-kehendaki bagi 2 tahun 1965. Sebab yang besar bagi kara sulit dapat di-lancharkan dengan penambahan di-bawah Pechahan lebeh chepat dan lebeh selamat. Kepala Seberang Laut ini ia-lah bagi Lain2 perkara di-bawah Perbelanjaan perbelanjaan runchit berjumlah $7,000 Khas ternyata menunjokkan per­ dan bagi perbelanjaan taligeram belanjaan yang kurang berbanding $60,000. Saya telah menyebutkan dengan peruntokan perbelanjaan untok tentang penambahan perbelanjaan bagi tahun 1964. Ada-lah sukar sa-kali taligeram pada Pechahan-kepala 2 untok memberi ma'alumat2 yang lebeh tadi. Sa-harus-nya saya mengatakan panjang berkenaan dengan perbelanja­ bahawa Pechahan-kepala 2 berkenaan an ini tetapi perkara2 ini boleh di- dengan peruntokan perbelanjaan yang dapati jika Ahli2 Yang Berhormat telah di-buat oleh Kementerian untok inginkan-nya. menghantar taligeram kapada Per- Berkenaan dengan Kepala S. 22— wakilan di-Seberang Laut, sedangkan Urusan Haji. Peruntokan sa-banyak Kepala 21 Butiran (4) ada-lah ber­ $192,082 ia-lah saperti mana yang telah kenaan dengan peruntokan perbelanja­ di-tegaskan, dasar Kerajaan ia-lah an bagi Perwakilan di-Seberang Laut untok memberi kemudahan2 dan pula menghantar taligeram kembali layanan baik bagi mereka yang menu- kapada Kementerian ini. Rasa-nya naikan fardhu haji ka-Mekah tiap2 tidak perlu penjelasan yang lebeh tahun. Oleh sebab ini-lah maka ke- lanjut tentang perkara ini. selurohan daripada tambahan sa- Akhir-nya, Lain2 Perbelanjaan, Ber- jumlah $42,000 telah di-kemukakan ulang Tiap2 Tahun, Pechahan-kepala untok tahun 1965. 25 Sewa dan Chukai, tambahan Di-bawah Pechahan-kepala 1 Butiran berjumlah $111,000 ada-lah di-perlukan (12)—Elaun Luar Negeri kapada bagi tahun 1965. Penambahan di-dalam Pesurohjaya Haji dan Ahli2 Rombongan peruntokan bagi Sewa dan Chukai Perubatan dan Penerangan ka-Mekah ada-lah memenohi perbelanjaan bagi dan Bayaran Tempat. Tambahan per­ sewa serta tempat kediaman bagi 2 2 untokan $1,500 di-minta untok tahun Duta Besar dan pegawai untok dua 1965 bagi perkhidmatan 3 pegawai Perwakilan baharu di-Rangoon dan tambahan dalam Rombongan Perubatan Seoul yang telah di-tubohkan pada ia-itu Jururawat, Pembantu Hospital awal tahun 1964. dan Attendent Hospital. Untok 1965 Sunggoh pun Perwakilan itu di- Rombongan Perubatan akan terdiri tubohkan pada tahun ini tidak-lah ada 2 Doctor, 2 Penolong Hospital, 3 Juru­ peruntokan yang telah di-masokkan rawat dan 2 Attendent Hospital untok di-dalam Anggaran Perbelanjaan bagi membaiki perkhidmatan dan pengelo- tahun 1964 bagi perbelanjaan tempat laan perubatan kapada jema'ah haji. kediaman dan pejabat kedua2 Per­ wakilan itu. Di-bawah Pechahan-kepala 8— Kelinik Berkereta. Peruntokan sa-ba­ Perbelanjaan Khas: Sekarang sam- nyak $15,000 termasok membeli sa-buah pai-lah saya kapada Perbelanjaan kereta perubatan yang akan memudah- Khas. Perkara2 yang penting di-dalam kan kerja ahli2 rombongan perubatan perbelanjaan di-bawah Pechahan- Jema'ah Haji yang sakit yang diam kepala 35 ia-lah perkakas dan keleng- berjauhan daripada tempat perubatan. kapan pejabat dan Pechahan Kepala Ini akan memberi kemudahan untok 40 Mesin Saifer. Peruntokan tambahan mereka kelak. Oleh sebab peruntokan di-gunakan bagi membeli alat2 Kelinik Berkereta di-adakan, maka perkakas pejabat sa-laras dengan mesti pula di-gajikan sa-orang driver. bertambah-nya jumlah pegawai2 di- Di-bawah Kepala 1 Butiran (15) di- Kementerian. Oleh kerana itu per­ adakan untok tahun 1965 dan perun­ untokan bagi mesin taip perlu tokan tambahan sa-banyak $1,600 4793 16 DECEMBER 1964 4794 ada-lah di-chadangkan pada tahun 1965, kepala 7—Perkakas2 dan Kelengkapan makanan rengan dan ubat akan di-beri Bilek Sakit. 2 kapada orang sakit, jika ia sakit. Kerja Akhir-nya peruntokan sa-banyak yang bertambah ini kelak pasti $8,000 termasok di-bawah Pechahan- memerlukan tukang masak. Jadi di- kepala 9—Kereta Motor. Untok bawah Pechahan 1 Butiran (17), satu membeli sa-buah kereta yang akan jawatan tukang masak bagi tahun 1965 menggantikan kereta lama yang telah dan peruntokan bagi gaji-nya ada-lah di-beli pada tahun 1957 yang kini telah berganda dari tahun 1964. tua dan ternyata tidak menguntongkan lagi untok di-gunakan. Sa-bagaimana Pechahan-kepala 1—Perbelanjaan yang telah di-bentangkan pada awal2 Urusan Haji. Di-bawah Pechahan uchapan saya tadi, Kerajaan sentiasa kepala ini perbelanjaan untok perchi- berusaha untok memberi kemudahan takan dan iklan, perbelanjaan runchit, yang lebeh baik bagi Jema'ah2 Haji api, kuasa letrik dan ayer untok Pejabat yang pergi ka-Mekah pada tiap2 tahun, Pesurohjaya Haji, bekalan perubatan, dengan tidak ada perkechualian lang- bayaran talipon dan taligeram serta song. Tambahan peruntokan kewangan pakaian seragam. Satu ranchangan yang di-minta bagi tahun 1965 ada-lah untok memperbaiki kemudahan per­ 2 bersangkut paut dengan pembaikan dan ubatan dengan tambahan 15 lagi katil kemudahan bagi Jema'ah Haji. akan di-sediakan akibat dari pem- besaran bilek sakit. Ini mengakibatkan Sa-belum saya akhiri, saya ingin bertambah perbelanjaan berulang bagi memberi jaminan kapada Dewan ini kain chadar, tikar, tilam dan lain2 serta bahawa kemudahan2 sewajar-nya bagi bekalan perubatan. Ini semua sesuai Jema'ah Haji akan di-jalankan di-mana dengan keputusan untok memberikan yang boleh serta memberi sa-penoh sadikit makanan pada orang sakit di- perkhidmatan terhadap kebajikan dan bilek sakit berdasarkan kapada cha- kebaikan orang2 haji. dangan doctor. Perubatan—Peruntokan Dato' Pengerusi, saya mengusulkan Tambahan ada-lah di-perlukan sa- 2 banyak $6,000 bagi tahun 1965 ber- kedua S. 21 dan S. 22 ini menjadi sa- banding dengan peruntokan yang telah bahagian daripada Jadual. di-luluskan bagi tahun 1964. Mr Chairman: Ahli2 Yang Berhormat sudah sedia ma'alum ia-itu masa kita Pechahan-kepala 4—Sewa Tempat ini sudah suntok sangat. Jadi ada Kediaman. Dengan bertambah-nya 2 Jadual di-hadapan mengatakan pukul pegawai Rombongan Perubatan, tempat 5.30, ada pula lagi sa-orang hendak ber- kediaman juga akan di-adakan di- chakap lagi, jadi barangkali dalam Mekah, Jedah, Madina dan Arfah. Jadi 10 minit, ada apa2 yang mustahak perbelanjaan tambahan juga di-sedia­ sangat, sila-lah. kan bagi Pechahan-kepala 4—Sewa untok Tempat Kediaman bagi tahun Dr Ng Kam Poh (Teluk Anson): 1965. Di-samping itu kemudahan2 yang Mr Chairman, Sir, I thank you for lebeh baik melalui penerangan2 kapada giving me this opportunity to make a Jema'ah Haji akan di-adakan. Mesin very, very short speech today to answer duplicator serta mesin taip akan di-beli the various questions and policies set di-bawah Pechahan-kepala 6—Perkakas out by the Opposition. dan Kelengkapan Pejabat. Peruntokan sa-banyak $980 di-sediakan untok To start with, I shall leave the PAS, 2 or the P.M.I.P. severely alone to the tahun 1965 bagi alat perkakas pejabat. UMNO—I do not want to deal with Akibat daripada bertambah besar-nya them at all, because the UMNO can bilek sakit dari 20 ka-35 katil2, maka tackle them. wang tambahan di-sediakan bagi As for the Member of the P.P.P., i.e., membeli satu peti sejok, satu penyejok the Member for Menglembu, his speech ayer, 3 meja kelinik, satu tempat ayer was definitely in line with the Alliance batu dan 2 kipas meja. Semua-nya ber- policy to a certain extent, but he goes jumlah $2,590 di-bawah Pechahan- on further to say that his policy is a 4795 16 DECEMBER 1964 4796

pro-West policy. However, we are pro- Treaty that we have between Great West only where parliamentary demo­ Britain and ourselves. cracy is concerned, and we identify ourselves together with the Afro-Asian The Honourable Member for Batu has advocated a policy of peaceful co­ group. We are not in any bloc, but we existence. Sir, you can only co-exist do identify ourselves with the Afro- with somebody who is your friend. Asian group. That is in answer to the You cannot co-exist .... P.P.P. Now, Mr Chairman, Sir, as for the Enche' Abdul Samad bin Gul Ahmad Socialist Front .... Mianji (Pasir Mas Hulu): Pagi tadi perbahathan itu sudah habis. Engku Muhsein: Mr Chairman, Sir, Dr Ng Kam Poh: Mr Chairman, Sir, may I know under what Sub-head is is he speaking on a point of clarifica­ the Honourable Member talking now? tion or on a point of order? Dr Ng Kam Poh: Under items start­ Mr Chairman: Well, I would like to ing from (112) and so on. remind Honourable Members that those Mr Chairman: Page please? points have already been touched upon by the Honourable the Prime Minister. Dr Ng Kam Poh: Pages Nos. 285, Dr Ng Kam Poh: I will not repeat 286, 287, 289 and so on. them, Sir. I will only say that there can Mr Chairman: I did not quite catch only be co-existence between two the numbers of the pages please? neighbours, if one would not bully the other. If only the Honourable Member Dr Ng Kam Poh: Starting from page for Batu will speak to his elder brother, 285 of the Estimates—Washington, or whatever he calls him, Bung Karno, New York, Canberra, New Delhi, not to confront us, then we can co-exist. Madras, Jakarta, Medan, Tokyo, then Co-existence is only possible if you Paris and so on {Laughter). respect your neighbour. The Defence Treaty between our Now, most important of all, we shall Government and that of Great Britain come to the Honourable Members from has been criticised in that we allow Singapore. What they have said is most Britain to use this country as a base to interesting. They have propounded the protect British interests in the whole of theory of non-alignment; in other South-East Asia, or to keep the peace words, we should move towards non- in South-East Asia—particularly by alignment. the Honourable Member for Batu. Of Enche' Abdul Samad: Yang Ber- course, I never have had the privilege hormat itu merugikan masa Dewan. of addressing him in the House, because Benda itu sudah habis. Tidak guna di- he is never here when I sometimes bahathkan lagi. make a speech. He says that this Treaty will allow British troops from here to Dr Ng Kam Poh: This is in reply to be used in Saigon in case there is a them, Sir. Please do not disturb world war. However, the British (Laughter). You will have your time interests in this area, Sir, with the later on. creation of Malaysia, is only limited to According to the Minister of Culture, Hongkong. There are no British interests there are lots of people going to Taiwan. anywhere else in this area. So, if If he will have a peek at his files, I am Communist China were to take over sure that he will see that I have never Hongkong, the British bases in Singa­ been to Taiwan. pore are of no value—and it takes only 24 hours or less to take over Hongkong. Engku Muhsein bin Abdul Kadir: So that argument is baseless, Sir. Which Minister of Culture are you Coming to his argument that we are referring to? subservient and so on, I can only con­ Dr Ng Kam Poh: The Minister of clude by saying that he has not Culture from Singapore—I am sorry. acquainted himself with the Defence He is the one who has said that he has 4797 16 DECEMBER 1964 4798 proof that so many people have been to South Africa, and he says that they to Taiwan and that Taiwan is a scenic are going to make tyres with the rubber territory with beautiful scenery and for their tanks and kill the people. We lovely flora and fauna and other agree with him. But if we do not sell attractions. Sir, I have never been to rubber to them, somebody else will. Taiwan, and so if he will look into his They can buy synthetic rubber from files, I am sure that he will agree with New York, or they can buy rubber me that I have never been to Taiwan. from some other country or through an indirect source. However, Singapore AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: DO you does not ban imports. The excuse that intend to go there? the Honourable Finance Minister of Singapore, who is sitting here opposite Dr Ng Kam Poh: I hope to go there me, Sir, made, is that they decided to some day as a tourist (Laughter). They do it in June last year and later in have made so much fuss about the August last year, because they could little Consulate for trade in Kuala not get fish meal—that is a very, very Lumpur, but won't say anything about lame excuse. They can get it from the Bank of China in Singapore. Now, Japan. Sir, they have mentioned Chinese chauvinism, Kuomintang, and so on Dr Goh Keng Swee (Singapore): May and so forth. I do agree with them that I ask the Honourable Member whether there should not be any chauvinism at Sabah and Sarawak are not importing all. However, Sir, with the Bank of South African goods? China in Singapore, surely we are not blind to the fact that this sort of thing Dr Ng Kam Poh: I have answered is promoting chauvinism orientated this question this morning, Sir. Sabah towards Communist China. It is simple. and Sarawak are in the Alliance. We They give credit to Chinese business­ can ask each other and we can co­ men and from that they can influence operate. You, however loyal you say the thoughts and minds of the Chinese you are, are dragging your little feet in Singapore and Malaya. That, Sir, is where apartheid is concerned. That is a a fact. I should think that the Bank of fact. Don't give lame excuses where this China in Singapore is far more fish meal is concerned. It won't hold dangerous than a small Consulate here water. in Kuala Lumpur. If they do not want the Chinese to be orientated to the Enche' S. Rajaratnam: On a point Kuomintang, then they should not have of clarification—does the Honourable Chinese orientated towards the Peoples' Member mean that if we join the Republic of China. Let us have only Alliance we can trade with South Chinese who are pro-Malaysia. Africa? Dr Ng Kam Poh: We do not want Now, I come to the question of the you (Laughter). We do not want you— Malaysia's stand towards South Africa's forget it (Laughter). apartheid policy. The Honourable Member from Singapore, Enche' Rahim We leave the fish meal aside now Ishak—he is the Parliamentary Secre­ and come to other questions. The tary to the Minister of Education, I question of Mr Tan Lark Sye was think—is a bit confused, Sir. Since he brought up by the Minister of Culture left Taiping and went over to Singapore, of Singapore. He says that Mr Tan he is a bit confused (Laughter). He is Lark Sye has been to Taiwan and that from Taiping, and I am from Taiping this is chauvinism—again chauvinism. too. Actually, the figure he stated was Mr Chairman, Sir, Singapore has $57 million. It is not $57 million; it is deprived Mr Tan Lark Sye of his only $33 million—I think the Finance citizenship saying that he is a pro- Minister of Singapore will bear me out Communist. Now, he goes to Taiwan on that—correct me if I am wrong. and they say he is bad because he is This $33 million is in respect of the Kuomintang. What is he? Is he a pro- export of rubber and other commodities Communist or is he a Kuomintang? 4799 16 DECEMBER 1964 4800

Enche' S. Rajaratnam: On a point disagree—such a person does really of clarification—I think his citizenship exist. was deprived on security grounds. Finally, Sir, I have only one other Dr Ng Kam Poh: Oh, on security point. grounds! Very ably put. Very nicely put, I should say (Laughter). So he is Mr Chairman: I must point out to not pro-Communist, but on security the Honourable Member that he must ground. be quick, because he has already exceeded five minutes. Enche' S. Rajaratnam: On a point of information—security is a joint Dr Ng Kam Poh: Yes, Sir. Let me matter between the Singapore Govern­ have another fifteen seconds! (Mr ment and the Central Government. Chairman assents) Sir, they praised the Dr Ng Kam Poh: That was before success of the Prime Minister of Singa­ Malaysia. pore's visit to the Afro-Asian countries. He visited several African and three Mr Chairman: I would like to point Asian Commonwealth countries, but out to the Honourable Member that still there was no evidence of success the time is now 5.30 p.m. until our Tunku went over there, Dr Ng Kam Poh: I would not take followed by our Deputy Prime very long, Sir. I shall wind up. There Minister's visit to dispel the idea that is nothing sinister about our chaps Malaysia is a neo-colonist plot. going to Taiwan. There is nothing Finally, I quote what the Prime sinister about it at all. They go there, Minister of Singapore had said in because, as they say, there are many Brussels: attractions there. But sometimes I " that the democratic socialist wonder why some of the members of leaders have come and gone. Communist the P.A.P. go to places like Moscow, leaders in Asia when they come into power Belgrade and Peking. Is that not a fact? stay in. This was the case of the Chinese Do they deny it? Why then all this Peoples' Republic, North Korea and North fuss? We go to Taiwan; we go to Japan. Vietnam." You can go anywhere you like provided Now, I cannot understand from his you have a mission. What is your quotation what he actually means. Is he mission then? We know for sure that pro-Communist, or is he a so-called the Prime Minister of Singapore paid democratic socialist? That is all I want a visit to Moscow in 1963 and later to to ask, Sir. Thank you very much. Belgrade. Do you deny that? Tuan Haji Ahmad bin Saaid (Sebe- Dr Goh Keng Swee: Is the Honour­ rang Utara): Tuan Pengerusi, Per- able Member aware that the Malaysian atoran Tetap 40, Kandongan (1), kerana Government sent an official delegation peruntokan bagi Kementerian ini sudah to Moscow recently? It was a rubber pun di-bahathkan dengan panjang lebar trade mission. dan untok menjimatkan masa serta juga 2 Dr Ng Kam Poh: Oh, yes! We go mengelakkan daripada berulang ber- for trade; we do not go there for a chakap dalam Majlis ini, oleh itu small chitchat (Laughter). That is the dengan kuat-kuasa Peratoran Tetap ini, difference between you and me saya mengambil peluang menchadang- (Laughter). And we also know of his kan ia-itu masaalah ini di-putuskan self-confessed association with the sekarang. Communists. Mr Chairman: Elok sangat-lah, saya Now, Sir, I will end up very shortly. fikir pun sudah sampai masa-nya. Those who sleep with the Communists, something always rubs on to them. You Question put, and agreed to. cannot escape from that fact, Sir. If you The sum of $10,472,585 for Head can live with the Communists, if you S. 21 and the sum of $192,082 for Head can think like them and yet get yourself S. 22 ordered to stand part of the totally away from Communism, I Schedule. 4801 16 DECEMBER 1964 4802

Heads S. 23 to S. 31— Services for the purpose of presenta­ tion only. The provision for these The Minister of Finance (Enche' Tan Services was previously shown under Siew Sin): Mr Chairman, Sir, the a Treasury Head. As already explained various Departmental Estimates that in the Treasury Memorandum on the come under the portfolio of the Minister Estimates of Ordinary Expenditure for of Finance appear under Head S. 23 1965 (Command Paper 36 of 1964), to Head 31. Sir, it is my normal prac­ this has been considered desirable in tice to seek your permission to take all that the provision involved is compa­ these Heads together, as they appear ratively large and the expenditure is in the Schedule to the Supply Bill in not particularly related to the adminis­ that sequence. If you have no objection, tration of the Treasury as such. Many Sir, I propose to do likewise on this of the sub-heads also incorporate pro­ occasion. visions which originally appeared in the Sarawak and Sabah Estimates of Head S. 23, Treasury— Federal Expenditure. Beginning with Head S. 23, which Sir, I would like to touch briefly on concerns the Treasury itself, there are the sub-heads which show increases of no changes which are very significant, any significance. apart from the few increases in the establishment arising from the addi­ Sub-head 3—Expenditure under Sub­ tional duties and responsibilities that head 3 is in respect of compensation have fallen to the lot of the Treasury. arising from claims made on the The small increases, however, relate Government. Whilst the estimate is mainly to the staff in the junior grades. based on actual expenditure on this account averaged over the previous With regard to Other Charges years, the actual expenditure to be Annually Recurrent, there are also very incurred will, of course, depend on the few changes of any significance; small number of claims that are made and increases have been incorporated in the are met. provision for administration, printing and stationery, and transport and Sub-head 5—An increase in the travelling under Sub-heads 2, 9 and 11 amount provided as contributions to respectively. These increases have been local authorities in aid of rates is neces­ made necessary in part by the proposal sary to keep pace with the increase to establish a regional office in Penang in the number of Federal Government for the Valuation Division. buildings in local authority areas. A further factor is that it is now possible With regard to Other Charges to evaluate the amount of such contri­ Special Expenditure, an increase of bution more closely as the Valuation about $114,000 is sought under Sub­ Division of the Treasury has been head 17 for the purchase of office actively engaged in this task. furniture and equipment. This amount is required for the purchase of account­ Sub-head 7—Sub-head 7 which pro­ ing and receipting machines, as the vides for cost of living allowances on accounts of Federal Departments in pensions shows an increase to the Singapore, Sarawak and Sabah will extent that payments in respect of have to be processed by the Accounts pensioners in Singapore, Sarawak and Division of the Federal Treasury with Sabah have to be catered for, in addi­ effect from 1st January, 1965. The tion to the States of Malaya. As existing equipment available is fully pension liability is a Federal responsi­ utilised in the processing of accounts bility, these have now been consoli­ of the Federal Departments in the dated under one sub-head. States of Malaya, and additional equip­ ment is thus necessary. Sub-head 20—Sub-head 20 for the provision of road grants to Municipali­ Head S. 24, Treasury General Services— ties has been increased as there have been increases in the mileage of roads Head S. 24 is a new Head of in various Municipal areas which are expenditure for Treasury General eligible for such grants. The provision 4803 16 DECEMBER 1964 4804 entered for 1965 is based on the site. An increase for transport and current year's expenditure on this travelling is for the intensification of account. operations against smuggling. Where special expenditure under this Although it has been found possible Head is concerned, it will be noted to reduce the overall provision for that there is increased provision shown special expenditure under this Head, under Sub-head 32 for disturbance an increased allocation has been pro­ grants to officers on termination of vided under Sub-head 15 for the temporary transfer from the British purchase of machines and equipment, Civil Service. This is not a new provi­ so that the Department may be better sion, as a number of such officers from able to discharge its duties and the British Civil Service have been responsibilities. serving in this country in various capa­ cities for some time now, and are Head 5. 27—Trade and Customs, eligible under their terms of service for Borneo States— disturbance grants when they return to Head S. 27 covers both the States of their Home Service. It is expected that Sarawak and Sabah but does not reflect a fair number of them will have any significant increases in the overall completed their periods of temporary amounts required for the running of service in this country in 1965, and these Federal Departments in the adequate provision has to be made for Borneo States. the payment of such disturbance grants to them at that time. Head S. 28—Comptroller-General of Inland Revenue— Head S. 25—Contributions to Statutory Funds— As in the case of the Royal Customs and Excise Department, it has also The various provisions under Head been found necessary for a certain S. 25 cover contributions to various amount of reorganisation to be effected funds which have been established for where the office of the Comptroller- the proper accounting and disburse­ General of Inland Revenue is concerned, ment of monies that have been set as this office now becomes the Malay­ aside for specific purposes. It was not sian Headquarters for the various found necessary, at the time when these Departments of Inland Revenue. Pro­ Estimates were prepared, to provide posals for further reorganisation are for increased contributions to these now being studied in the Treasury, but various funds for 1965. the provision under Head S. 28 reflects those changes which have already been Head S. 26—Royal Customs and made. A slight increase in the number Excise— of supporting staff for the Comptroller- Turning to Head S. 26 covering the General has been provided for under Royal Customs and Excise Department, this Head. an overall increase shown under this Head includes provision for the estab­ Head S. 29—Inland Revenue— lishment of a Malaysian Headquarters, The overall expenditure under Head and additional provision in respect of S. 29 shows an increase of about personal emoluments, because of a $387,000. This is accounted for in part revision of salary scales in respect of by the fact that recent general revisions certain grades of staff in the Customs in pay for clerical and Pass Degree Service. A small increase in the estab­ services have also affected staff in this lishment is also provided for. Department. A new grade of officer to The main increases under Other be known as Tax Assistants is to be Charges Annually Recurrent are in recruited for this Department to ensure Sub-heads 6 and 8 for rent and that its functions as a revenue collecting transport respectively. Additional pro­ agency are adequately maintained. vision for rent charges is necessary for There have also been a few establish­ staff quarters, warehouses and office ment changes in the Estate Duty accommodation on the Jurong industrial Division of the Department. 4805 16 DECEMBER 1964 4806 The Department has been able to privileged position for Singapore but obtain the services of a number of merely to state an obvious matter of Colombo Plan personnel for specialised fact. work, and for training permanent Now, in ordinary circumstances, the Malaysian staff in such work. Expenses fiscal policy of a government has to for this purpose have been provided take into account two basic factors. under Sub-head 13 for Other Charges The first, to preserve the strength of the Special Expenditure under this Head. currency by ensuring that expenditures Head S. 30—Inland Revenue, Borneo are met either out of current taxation, States— or from loans which represent a claim on real resources, that is to say that the Provision is made under Head S. 30 financing of expenditures does not for the Federal Departments of Inland produce an inflationary effect within the Revenue in Sarawak and Sabah, but country and weaken its currency, as there are no items of special significance could be produced, for instance, by for individual mention. The increased credit creation through borrowings overall provision of about $93,000 for from the Central Bank. The second these two Departments represents the basic element is to ensure that economic normal expansion activities of these growth is not retarded by excessive offices. taxation, or the wrong type of taxation, Head S. 31—Exchange Control, which depresses confidence or incentives Singapore—- to enterprise. In the case of Malaysia, This is the last Head under the port­ we are a new nation, having celebrated folio of the Minister of Finance, and our first birthday only recently. As relates to exchange control work in such, a new set of considerations would Singapore. Here again, there are no apply which will not be of relevance in items of significance for special mention the case of old-established nations, and as the provision is for the normal this is the political impact of new taxes. commitments of this particular office. While none will dispute the need to raise increased sums of money, it is Dr Goh Keng Swee (Singapore): important that everyone should be con­ Mr Chairman, Sir, Malaysia has now vinced that the incidence of the new a year's experience as an independent taxes is fairly distributed. By fair distri­ nation, a year in which we have had to bution, I mean both the impact between face hostility from our neighbour in the poor and the rich, and the impact the form of armed aggression, propa­ as between the component States of ganda offensive, and economic blockade. Malaysia. It is only when all citizens The position of any Finance Minister accept, or most citizens accept, that in this situation must surely be an there is justice and fair play in the unenviable one—he is faced with the incidence of these new taxes that the need to obtain funds for increasing the taxation policy of the Government can defence expenditure. This increase in be considered to be a sound one. Where funds has to be obtained in an economy there are grounds to believe that the which is affected by economic confron­ incidence has not been fair and just, tation of Indonesia. It is, of course, then the taxation policy of the Govern­ true that the Malaysian economy as a ment must produce results which are whole stands robust and sound. The undesirable and inimical to national impact of Indonesian trade blockade is unity. unevenly distributed, the main sufferers being the trading centres and ports of Now, a great deal has been said by- Malaysia—Singapore, Penang, Port critics of the various tax proposals that Swettenham and, to a lesser extent, the the burden has been distributed unfairly ports in Sabah and Sarawak. The main between the rich and the poor; in impact, of course, has been on Singa­ particular, the two controversial taxes— pore which carried on more than 80 the turnover tax and the payroll tax— per cent of the previous Malaysian have been under severe criticism. I trade with Indonesia. Now, I make this believe these taxes to be regressive in point not as a special plea for a their incidence and their introduction at 4807 16 DECEMBER 1964 4808 this time is unfortunate. However, I do I may mention, before going on to the not wish to repeat the arguments on other taxes, that the yield of these the inequitable incidence of these taxes agreed taxes is already 26.3% of the as between the economic classes, as by total additional tax yields. Therefore, now they are familiar to all members of if a test of sincerity is applied which is the House. I wish to say something on based on willingness to pay taxes, far the territorial distribution on the inci­ from failing lamentably, I would say dence of these new taxes. that we have passed with an uncomfort­ The Honourable Minister, in winding ably high degree of performance. up the debate on the Budget Speech, As regards the other taxes, there are laid down the principle that all States changes to the income tax rates. So far of Malaysia should make their fair con­ as they affect Singapore, my estimate is tribution. This principle will surely be that the additional taxes which married supported by all right thinking persons. couples in Singapore will have to pay However, the Minister had implied that will come to about $2 million while the Singapore is unwilling to pay its fair multi-millionaires, on the other hand, contribution to the Federal coffers. If I will have to pay about half a million may quote him, he singled out my Party dollars less and, therefore, the increase for severe condemnation, and I quote: in the income tax yield will be about "Yet the P.A.P. in their first test of how $1.5 million. The turnover tax of Singa­ sincere is their desire to be a fully participat­ pore and Malaysia has been estimated ing member of Malaysia have failed lament­ by the Minister at $45 million. Probably, ably. Their proposal is in effect, "Don't tax us, tax the Malayan tin miners!" one-third of this will be raised in Singapore as it is a trading and com­ I will deal at a later stage with the mercial centre. But I will take a smaller subject of Malayan tin miners. estimate of one-fourth, and this will First, I want to get the facts right as come to $13.3 million. As regards the to how much Singapore tax-payers con­ payroll tax, fairly firm estimates can be tribute to the new tax increases. I shall, reached from the Central Provident for the most part, make use of the Fund records, and this will yield about Minister's own calculations on the yield $7 million. So, the total tax yield in of these new taxes in arriving at my Singapore from these new and addi­ estimates. The Minister expects that the tional taxation proposals is $58.5 mil­ new taxes would yield $147 million for lion, which is 39.8% of the $147 million, the whole of Malaysia. How much of which the Minister expects his new this money comes from the pockets of taxation proposals to yield. It is, there­ the taxpayers in Singapore? My fore, not surprising that the Minister's estimates show that 39.8% of the total proposals have created major conster­ yield of new taxes will be paid by nations in Singapore among employers Singapore taxpayers. Considering that and employees, among merchants, Singapore's population is only 17% of industrialists and trade unions. Even in the total population of Malaysia, the normal circumstances, a taxation strictures of the Minister on Singapore's increase of this magnitude will be a attitude and contribution are somewhat difficult dose to swallow. incongruous. The figures are as follows: If we take into account that Singa­ The harmonization of import duties, to pore has borne the main brunt of which I have agreed, will yield $38.7 million, Indonesian economic confrontation, and and this is made up as follows: if we consider the depressing effects of Sugar $15.9 million the two recent civil disturbances on Sugar confectionery ... 1.6 „ business, then there is little to wonder Chocolates 0.8 at the sharp reaction to these taxes, for Wines and liquors ... 0.4 „ those who have suffered most have been Tobaccos and cigarettes ... 4.5 „ asked to contribute the most. The Diesel and fuel oil ... 14.6 Honourable Minister may say that his Imported aerated water ... 0.9 Treasury will not get the whole of the Total ... 38.7 million $58.5 million to be paid by the Singa­ pore taxpayers but only 40% of it and 4809 16 DECEMBER 1964 4810 therefore Singapore's contribution is not unnecessary, in my view, to proceed disproportionate to its total population. with such hasty measures as the two But this argument is not strictly valid controversial taxes, for the revenue for, if the whole of the Federal revenue under-estimates will be substantially in Singapore were to accrue to the larger than the expected yields of Federal Treasury, as would be the case these two taxes. No financial calamity if Singapore's status in Malaysia were would overtake the nation, if the to be identical with Penang, Malacca or Government were to take a second look other States, then the Federal Treasury at these taxes, study their implications will have to bear the full cost of educa­ in more detail and introduce them in tion, health and other social services the next Budget, if a thorough examina­ which are now being paid by the State tion reveals that no adverse effects will Government; and, of course, Singapore follow. It is not sufficient to argue that will also have considerably more than since the rates are low anyway, it does fifteen seats in this Parliament. not really matter if the critics are right or wrong. Nor do I think the Minister is Now, be that as it may, the second correct in saying, of these taxes, that point I want to develop is that there is since the rates are small they cannot be no financial necessity to introduce these passed on to the consumer. The two controversial taxes—the turnover Government, of course, can press on, and payroll taxes. I am certain that the regardless of the expressions of anxiety Minister has grossly under-estimated which have arisen throughout the the yield of the general revenue for length and breadth of Malaysia, but it 1965. This is not, of course, the first would be a matter for regret if the time he has under-estimated tax yields— Government did so, for this would revenue for the current year has been reflect an insensitivity to public opinion under-estimated by $59 million, and which has revealed itself in quite un­ revenue for 1963 had been under­ mistakable terms. Thank you. estimated by $128 million—and this is from the Minister's own statement in Tuan Haji Ahmad bin Abdullah paragraphs 49 and 45 of his Budget (Kelantan Hilir): Tuan Pengerusi, saya Speech. Now, for 1965, it is likely that mengambil sadikit sahaja ia-itu di- the under-estimation of revenue will be muka 326, S. 24 Pechahan-kepala 6— $100 million or more. There are several Bantuan kapada Perbelanjaan Kawalan reasons to expect this result. First, the Pertukaran Wang kapada Bank Negara. yield of some of the new taxes, such as Tuan Pengerusi, Bank Negara sudah the capital gains tax, has not been taken lama terdiri dan satu daripada tugas- into account, probably because of diffi­ nya yang besar ia-lah untok mengawal culties of making estimates of yields. exchange atau pun wang Foreign A more important reason is the very Exchange dan lain2 lagi, dan ini satu large under-estimate in the yield of perkara yang sangat mustahak untok income tax. The Inland Revenue kebaikan ekonomi negara. Tetapi, di- Department has apparently not allowed sini chuma saya fikir satu daripada for the substantial increases in revenue tugas2 Bank Negara yang sangat penting which will flow into its coffers under ia-lah tiga perkara, satu daripada-nya the normal operation of the 40% ia-lah mengeluarkan wang kita sendiri. company tax on the tin industry. My Tetapi nampak-nya sampai sekarang colleague, Dato' Lim Kim San, has ini walhal kita telah menchapai ke- made this point, and it has not been merdekaan sejak daripada tahun 1957, rebutted by the Minister in his reply, dan Bank Negara telah pun lama di- nor has he denied that the $5 million dirikan tetapi satu tugas yang sangat entered for the special tax on tin is mustahak bagi Central Bank untok likely to prove a very gross under­ mengeluarkan wang kita sendiri maseh estimate of the yield. hingga sampai sekarang ini belum lagi Sir, the real fact is that the financial dapat di-jalankan. Oleh sebab yang position of the Malaysian Government demikian saya menchadangkan kapada Menteri Yang Berhormat supaya is considerably stronger than that made 2 out by the Minister. It is completely langkah hendak-lah di-adakan dengan 4811 16 DECEMBER 1964 4812 sa-berapa segera untok di-jalankan ka- tablekan atau mengeluarkan financial arah itu, kerana kita tahu sa-lagi wang report-nya di-dalam Rumah yang ber­ kita itu di-keluarkan oleh bangsa asing bahagia ini. Kerana oleh sebab ada-lah maka sa-lama itu-lah control atau pun wang loteri ini ada-lah wang negara— kawalan ka-atas volume of currency wang ra'ayat yang berpuloh2 juta ringgit ia-itu banyak wang keluar itu tidak bahkan boleh saya katakan beratus2 dapat-lah di-jalankan dengan chukup juta ringgit yang bersangkut paut jaya-nya kerana bukan-lah kita yang dengan wang loteri ini tetapi ra'ayat mengeluarkan wang itu. Sunggoh pun tidak tahu bagaimana-kah account wang kita ada mempunyai langkah2 dan ini telah di-jalankan. Bahkan kita ada tugas2 yang lain lagi yang dapat dengar rayuan2 dan dengong2 yang mengawal wang negara tetapi tugas telah di-sebutkan oleh orang ramai mengeluarkan wang kita sendiri ada-lah bahawasa-nya ada-lah ejen2 yang sangat2 mustahak .Oleh sebab yang menjualkan tiket2 loteri ini telah demikian, saya menchadangkan kapada menggunakan wang ringgit ini di-dalam Yang Berhormat Menteri supaya perkara yang tersebut. Bahkan mereka langkah ini hendak-lah di-segerakan. itu telah melambatkan mengirim wang ini balek kapada Lottery Board dan Satu perkara yang saya suka hendak mereka itu telah mengambil masa tiga, menyebutkan lagi ia-lah Bank of China empat bulan lama-nya untok mengirim- yang maseh juga lagi berjalan di- kan wang itu, dan di-dalam tempoh Singapura. Saya fikir perkara ini tidak- yang tersebut mereka itu telah dapat lah sesuai dengan polisi Kerajaan kita menggunakan wang yang tersebut. Oleh terhadap dari segi kedudokan Malaysia sebab yang demikian supaya ra'ayat kerana Kerajaan Pusat sendiri membu- tahu di-atas kedudokan wang ini maka barkan Bank of China di-dalam Tanah saya menchadangkan kapada Menteri Melayu kita. Oleh sebab Singapura itu Yang Berhormat supaya di-keluarkan- satu bahagian daripada Tanah Melayu lah account atau pun kira2 yang ber­ ini atau pun Malaysia, maka hendak-lah sangkut paut dengan Lottery Board ini langkah di-ambil supaya Bank of China kapada Rumah yang mulia ini supaya itu di-tutup di-Singapura sana sa-bagai- dapat-lah kita Wakil Ra'ayat sakalian mana telah di-tutup di-Tanah Melayu yang dudok dalam Rumah ini tahu kita ini. Dengan yang demikian tidak- selok belok-nya tentang perkara kira2 lah ada polisi di-Tanah Melayu ini 2 wang loteri yang telah di-jalankan ini berlain atau pun berlawanan dengan dari satu masa ka-satu masa. polisi yang berjalan di-Singapura. Bahkan, Tuan Pengerusi, yang kita tahu Bank of China ini ia-lah Bank Enche' Yong Nyuk Lin (Singapore): Kerajaan Peking ia-itu Kerajaan Mr Chairman, Sir, I should like to Kominis. Maka dengan ada-nya Bank begin by first thanking you for having of China di-Singapura, maka dapat-lah very kindly extended the time for the Kerajaan Peking menjalankan per- debate on this Ministry when represen­ gerakan2 yang halus melalui Bank of tatives of the Opposition parties called China ini untok membaiki kedudokan- on you during the tea-break, and nya di-dalam Tanah Melayu ini sama disturbed you unfortunately, and put ada dari segi ekonomi mahu pun dari forward their case for more time to segi politik. debate on this important Ministry. As this has come to pass, I should like to Sekarang saya suka hendak meng- take advantage of the situation to ambil bahagian sadikit juga lagi pada comment on what had been said by muka 329 ia-itu Kumpulan Wang my previous colleagues in regard to the Pemberian untok Perkhidmatan Masha- new taxes—that there would, perhaps, rakat dan Kebajikan (Grants for Social be a gross under-estimation of the and Welfare Services Trust Fund). estimates of revenue for next year, and Tuan Pengerusi, Lottery Board tidak- this has been estimated by my collea­ lah mengemukakan financial report-nya gues to be as high as $100 million di-dalam Rumah yang berbahagia ini and the estimated revenue of the two walhal kita tahu pertubohan2 yang lain2 controversial taxes, i.e., the turnover saperti F.L.D.A. dan lain2 lagi itu men- tax and the payroll tax, would only 4813 16 DECEMBER 1964 4814 come to $66 million. In other words, families with large assets, be it rubber if there is a closer control of the present estates or tin mines, out of which our taxes, it may be possible for the Honourable Minister would be able to Honourable Minister of Finance to collect adequate revenue by maintain­ defer implementation of these two ing the present rate of estate duty, controversial taxes which have rocked instead of bringing it down at the the country, not only in Singapore highest level of 60 per cent to 50 per where it has its greatest effect, but cent. So much for the old taxes. throughout the States of Malaysia. Sir, I think the question that has I would like to say that his proposed been worrying Ministers of Finance, in revision of the present taxes, like order to get more revenue, has always income tax and estate duty, through been this question of catching the large the so-called harmonisation, by reduc­ number of those who have been evading ing, say, the rate of income tax at income tax. It is a problem which, I 55 per cent for the highest income think, is a reasonable one and a fair group—to be brought down to 50 per one, and I would like to help the cent—on the plea of harmonisation, is Honourable Minister of Finance where something which appears to be illogical I can, considering the fact that this because, on the one hand, he says he new capital gains tax is, to me, an wants to find more income, and this answer, because, Sir, everyone is pro­ income is already in the pockets of his bably aware of the fact that in the Inland Revenue Department, and yet good old days of gangsterism in he would prefer to bring it down. So, Chicago there was a well-known gang­ my contention is that the rates of taxes ster who was called Al Capone. The that have been imposed should be Police had great difficulty in catching allowed to carry on; and if it is for him on charges which could be proved harmonisation, then we must let the by the Police, but in the end the United other States come up to the level that States Government got this man on the has existed in Singapore rather than to question of evasion of tax. So, if there bring down the highest income group had been tax evasion in the past, with from 55 per cent to 50 per cent and the introduction of the capital gains tax allow those best able to carry the you will get your man. So, I say, Sir, burden of taxation the so-called relief that he has found a formula, but he is when the rest of the population, not exploiting this particular formula especially those less able to bear the to the full when he suggested that there additional taxes, to have those taxes should be a capital gains tax of 20 per imposed on them. Likewise, Sir, on this cent at the standard rate, and benefits question of estate duty, why tinker should be allowed for those who have around with a formula, which is already had their assets for a much longer existing in Malaya and Singapore, period of time—such as, if the assets where the highest rate of estate duty had been purchased three years ago, is 60 per cent to bring it down to then the tax would be 15 per cent; if 50 per cent? Here I would say that held for four years, it would be down from the figures for revenue in Com­ to 10 per cent or one-half of the mand Paper No. 39 of 1964, if we turn standard rate; if held five years ago, to page 8, it is interesting to recall that it would be still lower at 5 per cent; the estimated estate duty for a very rich and anyone who was fortunate to have Malaya is only placed at $7 million, had his assets ten years ago, he will not whereas in Singapore the estimated have to pay capital gains tax. I put it revenue for estate duty is given as to the Honourable Minister of Finance $6 million. Now, Sir, Singapore is only then that if he would use his capital a trading centre, whereas in Malaya gains tax and stick to 20 per cent, there are large rubber estates and large regardless of time, he will get his man. tin mines. The population of Singapore Then, of course, there is this ques­ at 1.8 million is only a quarter of the tion of the new tax, the Excess Profits population of Malaya; and I am sure Tax, shall we say, on the tin mining that there are very many wealthy industry. This has been touched upon 4815 16 DECEMBER 1964 4816 by my other colleague who had already Enche' Yong Nyuk Lin: That is indicated that the Minister's estimate exactly what I have been trying to of $5 million is a gross under-estimate, suggest. Tax more of those who can because the figures are available to all pay, and don't bring down the tax rate and we estimate that the capital gain of the highest income group. But it within recent years has been to the tune does not make sense when you want of hundreds of millions of dollars and more money and yet you say bring it is a question of at what per cent down the rate of income tax. That is you really want to tax it for Govern­ the tragedy, Sir. They are caught with ment revenue. Therefore, Sir, there is their argument. They want more tax not really that great urgency to launch and yet they say, "It is too hard on forth into the two controversial taxes them, so let us bring down the tax rate." of which the impact is a little unknown That is where it just does not make to the Minister for Finance, but which sense. It is so illogical that we have have caused enough of concern every­ made great pains, Sir, to try to suggest where as to give serious thought for to the Honourable Minister that his reconsideration. estimates of revenue are grossly under­ estimated; as for his desire, which is a I agree that it has been the worry correct one too, to stop income tax of the Ministers of Finance, both in the evasion, there is this formula, except Central Parliament and in Singapore, that he is half-hearted about it, so as to how income tax evaders could be much so that those who have had the got at. But, Sir, he has supplied an answer, and it is a question of only essets which are 10 years old need not whether he would or should really pay any tax to Government which, in exploit it to the full. Perhaps, Sir, more our view, is illogical; if the asset has work should be done to chase up on gained in value because of general them. I will, therefore, come back prosperity throughout the country, again to this question of income tax there is no reason why a portion of that, even on present figures, he seemed that should not be handed over to the to be able to extract more income tax Government, so that the Government out of Singapore per head of popula­ will be in a position to provide better tion than Malaya has been able to do social services for the community as per head of population at present. a whole. According to the Paper submitted to Enche' Mohamed Yusof bin Mahmud this House, Command Paper No. 39 of (Temerloh): Tuan Pengerusi, saya 1964, the estimated revenue for income hendak berchakap sadikit berkenaan tax for Malaya is put at $237 million, dengan Crown Agents Expenses di- whereas for Singapore the estimate is dalam muka surat 326, peruntokan-nya put at $91.9 million. This means to sa-banyak $1 juta. say that the estimated income tax revenue from Malaya is something like Tuan Pengerusi, saya memandang three times that applicable to Singa­ Perbelanjaan Crown Agents ini satu pore; but the population of Malaya is perbelanjaan yang sangat besar oleh sebab pada masa ini di-negara kita four times that of Singapore. So, there 2 appears to be more leakage, shall we boleh di-katakan barang yang mus- say, in Malaya than in Singapore. tahak bagi keperluan negara kita telah kita adakan dalam negeri kita sendiri dan juga kita memandang di-sekeliling Dr Ng Kam Poh: On a point of 2 clarification: the standerd of living in negara kita boleh mendapat perkhid- Singapore is about double that of the matan yang di-jalankan oleh Crown standard of living in Malaya. We have Agents ini tidak payah lagi, ia-itu kita sendiri boleh mengelolakan ia-itu pe- poor ra'ayats, but they (Singapore) 2 have a thriving business concern, entre­ jabat yang ada di-tanah ayer ini boleh pot. They make a lot of money and; menyempurnakan. Jadi, saya fikir per­ they should be taxed more. Don't talk belanjaan yang $1 juta ini tentu-lah about tin taxes. They say, "Tin taxes, besar yang mana boleh di-hapuskan tax Malaya, do not tax Singapore". dan di-selenggarakan oleh segala per- That is wrong (Laughter). khidmatan yang ada dalam negeri kita 4817 16 DECEMBER 1964 4818 ini, sebab barang2 yang di-kehendaki banyak mereka ini tidak bayar chukai di-selenggarakan oleh keperluan negara pendapatan. Jadi kalau kita hendak kita telah banyak ada dalam negeri mengenakan chukai sa-patut-nya-lah kita, ia-itu kita ada banyak factory, mereka yang sa-macham itu di-kenakan factory kertas akan timbul, furniture chukai. Saya harap pejabat ini akan ada banyak di-sini dan barang2 yang dapat menyelidek. Saya rasa tidak-lah murah datang dari Jepun pun ada di- susah menyelidek-nya sebab daripada sini. Jadi, saya fikir perbelanjaan sa- rekod yang ada di-dalam Pejabat2 banyak itu patut-lah di-timbangkan dan Daerah kita dapat tahu siapa-kah kalau boleh di-hapuskan. yang memileki harta yang boleh di- kenakan chukai. Kita tahu keba- Sa-perkara lagi berkenaan dengan nyakan mereka itu terlepas daripada Elaun Belanja Hidup atas Penchen chukai pendapatan. Saya fikir dua tiga di-muka surat 326 juga peruntokan-nya perkara ini kalau dapat di-jalankan $8 juta lebeh. Tuan Pengerusi, saya oleh pegawai itu dengan lanchar kita harap dapat di-timbangkan ia-itu elaun 2 akan dapat wang banyak untok faedah ini di-tambah bagi pegawai kita yang negara kita. telah bersara, terutama sa-kali pega­ wai2 yang bersara dalam masa 10 tahun Enche' Lee Seek Fun (Tanjong ka-atas dahulu, oleh sebab masa itu Malim): Mr Chairman, Sir, I wish to pegawai2 yang bersara ini mendapat touch on Head S. 23, Organisation and elaun sara yang sangat rendah dan Methods Division, Malaya. Previously, juga memandang barang2 keperluan the Town Council in Tanjong Malim hidup yang naik meningkat harga-nya. had been catering for the stamping of Patut-lah di-timbangkan soal menaik- Agreements and Statutory Declara­ kan sara hidup kapada pegawai2 kita tions—we have a Court House and staff yang telah bersara. in Tanjong Malim; but now the Statu­ tory Declarations can only be stamped Sa-lain daripada itu berkenaan de­ in Slim River, and if we want to have ngan Inland Revenue di-bawah S. 29 an Agreement stamped, we have to di-muka surat 343. Saya hendak ber- travel to Slim River which is about, by chakap berkenaan dengan Pegawai the new road, 13 1/2 miles and, by the Hasil Dalam Negeri. Saya chuma old road, 21 miles. There are several hendak mendapat supaya pegawai ini small towns around Tanjong Malim, bertambah giat lagi menjalankan kerja- and the poor people there are facing nya mendapatkan lagi wang bagi a lot of difficulties in drawing up tabong negara yang, saya pandang, Agreements and in having all these walau pun tidak berapa besar, tetapi Agreements stamped because they have besar ma'ana-nya kapada kutipan wang to travel as far as Slim River to get ia-itu segala bayaran rasip (receipt) them stamped. Since we have a Court yang di-beri kapada orang yang mem- House and the staff in Tanjong Malim, beli barang mesti-lah di-tetapkan, di- 2 who had been doing this job previously kenakan setem sa-bagaimana undang , on behalf of the Treasury, I appeal to tetapi pada masa ini kalau kita beli 2 2 the Minister concerned and, in parti­ barang di-mana kedai pun yang ber- cular, to this Division, to consider harga $50.00 atau $100.00 maseh lagi revising these services offered to the setem tidak di-lekatkan kapada rasip people around this area. itu. Banyak kejadian yang sa-macham ini. Saya rasa kalau pegawai ini chekap Tuan Haji Ahmad bin Saaid: Tuan menjalankan kerja, kita akan mendapat Pengerusi, saya ingin berchakap atas wang lagi daripada hasil rasip atas Kepala S. 26—Customs and Excise. bayaran $20.00 ka-atas. Ada satu perkara yang dalam pe- ngetahuan Yang Berhormat Menteri Bagitu juga, Tuan Pengerusi, banyak Kewangan yang sangat menjadi2 di- lagi di-tanah ayer kita ini orang yang Butterworth dan di-sa-panjang pantai tidak bayar chukai pendapatan. Kita Seberang Prai, sa-belah barat, me- tahu banyak orang yang berselerak ngenai perlarian chukai. Perkara ini di-tanah ayer kita yang memileki harta ada-lah satu masaalah yang sangat kebun getah 20 ekar ka-atas, tetapi rumit, kerana pehak2 yang menjalankan 4819 16 DECEMBER 1964 4820 urusan melarikan chukai, mengadakan main gist of his argument is that the satu kumpulan dengan memberi upah financial position of the Central kapada orang2 kampong supaya me- Government is so strong that these ngawal penjahat2 untok melarikan taxes are largely unnecessary—in chukai. Ini ada-lah satu perkara yang particular, the turnover and payroll sangat2 rumit. Saya shorkan kapada taxes. In this connection, I must admit, Yang Berhormat Menteri untok hendak I do not quite agree with him. If he mengurangkan perkara perlarian chukai had studied my Budget Speech care­ ini, di-beri sagu hati atau hadiah 2 fully, he would have noticed that the kapada orang kampong supaya me- deficit on current and capital account nangkap atau pun memberi tahu kapada for 1965, assuming that no changes pehak Kastam, sa-kira-nya berlaku were made in taxation, would be of the perlarian chukai dengan pendaratan 2 order of $534 million—I have not got perahu yang menggunakan outboat my figures here, but I think that figure motors, kebanyakan-nya daripada is correct. Now, the deficit of $534 Pulau Pinang, boleh di-katakan. Jadi million is a terrifying deficit even for dengan ada-nya menambahkan sagu a Finance Minister who is incorrigibly hati atau memberi hadiah yang banyak optimistic, and I suggest that for the kapada orang kampong, maka dapat- Central Government of Malaysia to lah di-kurangkan perkara perlarian 2 accept a deficit of this order would be chukai ini. Orang yang menjalankan tantamount to follys. It is, therefore, urusan ini sangat-lah bebas dan sangat- not correct, as Dr Goh has stated, that lah bermaharajalela sa-hingga di- the financial position of the Central dalam bandar pun mereka itu dengan Government is so strong that it need tidak pedulikan sa-siapa pun, men­ 2 not bother about initiating proposals jalankan kerja. Baharu ini di-depan which would raise substantial addi­ Rumah Sakit Butterworth sendiri di- tional revenue in 1965. naikkan barang2 sa-hingga Pegawai2 2 Kastam terpaksa menembak orang ini Sir, he also states that I have grossly dan sa-tengah-nya dapat melarikan under-estimated the yield from the diri. Jadi dalam taksiran, bagaimana profits tax on tin. When one of his yang di-terangkan oleh Menteri, per­ colleagues—I think the Honourable larian chukai ini lebeh kurang sa- Dato Lim Kim San—spoke in the tahun sa-banyak $10 juta. Ini ada-lah course of the Budget debate, he also wang yang banyak. Saya ingat molek- made the same point, and I pointed lah dengan shor saya ini di-beri sagu out to him then that although the figure hati atau hadiah yang besar kapada 2 of $5 million, which was the expected orang yang dapat menghapuskan atau yield from the profits tax in 1965, menolong Kerajaan menghapuskan satu would be greatly increased in 1966, pasokan perlarian chukai ini. for 1965 it was not an unreasonable figure, though I readily admit that it is Sekian-lah sahaja, Tuan Pengerusi, possible that the yield would be higher terima kaseh. than $5 million. The reason I gave was this. The assessment for 1965 would Enche' Tan Siew Sin: Mr Chairman, clearly be based on the accounts of Sir, I would like to say that I do companies whose financial years ended appreciate the speech made by the in 1964. 1 think that is accepted by the Finance Minister of Singapore. Unlike Opposition. Now, as the Opposition many other speeches coming from the also knows, most of these major com­ Opposition side of the House, that was panies, or the companies which make a coherent and balanced speech which substantial profits in the tin industry, confined itself to the economic merits are companies which have dredges and, or demerits of our tax proposals. I again, these are very largely sterling shall, therefore, respond to his com­ companies. These companies, or at ments in the spirit in which they were least a majority of them, have financial delivered. years which end between March and I think, if I understand the Finance June, 1964 and it will be readily Minister of Singapore correctly, the appreciated that up to June, 1964 the 4821 16 DECEMBER 1964 4822 price of tin had not risen to the levels for an indefinite priod of time. But as it has reached now. I think that point I have said before, the 1965 yield of is very important and if we bear that profits tax must obviously be based on point in mind, it will be readily seen the 1964 outturn and that, in turn, that it was not unduly pessimistic on my would reflect much lower prices than part to have quoted a figure of $5 had been prevailing in the last two or million as the yield for 1964. But if three months. Honourable Members had read my Budget speech carefully, they would The Finance Minister of Singapore— have noticed that in my next line, and I think this point was also made literally in my next line, I did concede by the Honourable Enche' Yong Nyuk that for 1966, provided that tin prices Lin—stated that yields from income remained at the present level for a full tax have also been under-estimated. year—or not even at the present level, There I disagree with them, because we but the level they stood two weeks ago, have estimated as closely as we possibly for a full year—the yield would be can. I agree that estimation under such much higher than $5 million. But I circumstances is largely a matter of still maintain that the figure of $5 guess work—he could be right, we million for 1965 is not an unreasonable could be right on this side of the figure bearing in mind the imponder­ House—but as far as we are concerned, able factors with which we have to I think we have taken care to give as contend. realistic an estimate as possible. Certainly, the experience of the last few The other general observation which years does not encourage us in the I would like to make on the tin industry belief that the under-estimation, if any, is this: let us not forget that it is is very excessive. indisputable that the output of the tin The Honourable Dr Goh Keng Swee industry in Malaysia is declining re­ also asked us why we did not give a gardless of price; secondly, this decline yield for the capital gains tax. I think has been taking place over a period of he himself supplied the answer, because years; thirdly, even at the present price that is a tax which will only be levied levels the marginal mines which are when a speculator who has bought, say, coming into production as a direct in 1964 or 1963 sells either in 1965 or result of the present high price levels 1966 or whatever year it is. It is clearly will clearly not contribute much, if at impossible under those circumstances all, to this profits tax; and lastly, and even to make a wild guess as to the this point I think is of considerable yield. It is very much a matter of luck importance, Honourable Members who whether you get "X" dollars in one year are conversant with the tin industry and "Y" dollars in another year, will have noticed that lately the price because the tax will only be applied has slipped down considerably again. when a person feels that he would reap We can make our guesses as to why the a large profit by selling what he bought price has slipped down, but I think earlier at a lower price. It is clearly largely this is due to the fear of the impossible under those circumstances to industry that the General Services estimate the yield and therefore we Administration of the United States have taken the realistic course of not would be releasing more tin than giving any yield at all. I think Honour­ originally envisaged as a result of what able members of the P.A.P. benches will they feel is the excessive price ruling in admit that even they in our position will the Industry—I think my Honourable not hazard a guess as to the yield of a friend the Minister of Commerce and tax of this nature. Industry will confirm that. That bears out our point, i.e., the tin price is very I think the Honourable Dr Goh Keng unpredictable. It is subject to very Swee also said that Singapore will wide fluctuations in prices and hence provide between 39% to 40% of the I think it would be Imprudent for any additional yield from the new tax government to rely or to feel that the proposals. I must say he has taken care present high prices could be maintained to do some arithmetic and I admit that 4823 16 DECEMBER 1964 4824 that arithmetic is correct, but I would in this matter is not all that difficult. like to say that this imposition, if I may I do not have to tell the Honourable use the word, is a fair one. As I have Members opposite how it can be done, pointed out when replying to the debate because this practice is as widespread on the second reading of the Bill, the here as anywhere else where the rates per capita income of Singapore is are high, if not confiscatory. double that of the States of Malaya, but This particular Honourable Member that was not the main reason. Honour­ also asked the Government why we able Members from Singapore must have made a differentiation in the remember that a large part of the application of capital gains tax, in the increased yield will come from the new sense that capital gains on pre-Budget import duties which, after all, were acquisitions are subject to this imposed with the concurrence of the graduated scale of charges, whereas Government of Singapore and that, of capital gains made on post-Budget course, has made up a large part of the assets will not have the benefit of this 39% referred to by Dr Goh. That, of graduated scale. The reason, of course, course, has got its advantages and I is simple. It is a very fundamental think the Singapore Members are aware axiom of taxation that it should not be of that, because the additional yields retrospective. If, for example, this which we will get from these new Government were to introduce legisla­ proposals will also benefit Singapore tion to the effect that profits made in as a result of the 60% / 40% financial 1963 were to be taxable, I am sure there arrangement which the Central Govern­ will be an even bigger hue and cry than ment has reached with Singapore and the one with which we have been 60% of this additional yield will go regaled lately—that this Government is to Singapore. Therefore, I think the iniquitous, it is doing something which Singapore Government should thank no other civilised country in the world the Central Government for having is doing. We have made this differentia­ given them this additional revenue tion, because we feel that it is fair that while carrying the odium on its own taxation should not be retrospective. shoulders. That is the sole reason why we have An Honourable Member from Singa­ made a differentiation between pre- pore also takes the Central Government Budget and post-Budget acquisitions in to task for reducing the personal rate the matter of capital gains tax. for income tax in Singapore from 55% The Honourable Member for Kelan- to 50%. I dealt at very considerable tan Hilir has asked whether it would be length with this point in my Budget possible to table the Lotteries Board speech and again when replying to the accounts in Parliament. It is true that debate on the second reading and, these accounts are not laid before the therefore, I shall not bore Honourable Dewan Ra'ayat, but I should also add Members with another long explanation that the results of the draw are as to why it was necessary for us to do published in the Gazette. If today the this. Honourable Member feels, and other Another Honourable Member from Honourable Members feel the same the P.A.P. benches also asked why the way, that the Lotteries Board accounts yield from estate duty in the States of should be tabled in Parliament, we can Malaya should be only $7 million a look into it, but I obviously cannot give year—I think that was the figure he an answer at this stage to them. There gave—compared to $6 million a year may be reasons why special treatment from Singapore. In fact, those figures should be given to this, because this is really bear out the point which this a statutory authority and, as far as I Government has been trying to make all know, it is not the rule for accounts the time, and that is that if the rates are of this nature to be tabled in Parlia­ too high, they defeat their very object, ment. because Honourable Members opposite The Honourable Member also know as well as we do that that can referred to the position of the Bank of only lead to avoidance and avoidance China in Singapore. As Honourable 4825 16 DECEMBER 1964 4826

Members are aware, this subject will $62,300,000 for Head S. 25, come up later in the course of the $10,915,061 for Head S. 26, session when I shall be introducing two Bills, one of which will deal with this $3,116,744 for Head S. 27, very situation. I might suggest, and I $172,790 for Head S. 28, think it would be more appropriate that $4,738,649 for Head S. 29, we should make a statement on the position at that time. $830,942 for Head S. 30 and $199,510 for Head S. 31 The Honourable Member for Kelan- tan Hilir also referred to our currency ordered to stand part of the Schedule. arrangements. I believe that he does support the stand of the Government House resumed. that the time has now arrived for the Bank Negara to take over the currency (Mr Speaker in the Chair) issuing functions of the Currency Board. Steps are already in hand and, Mr Speaker: Honourable Members, I as Honourable Members know, this have to report that the Committee of House has already passed a resolution Supply on the Supply Bill, 1965, has to enable the Government to imple­ progressed up to Head S. 31 of the ment this policy. Schedule. Other Honourable Members, the ADJOURNMENT Honourable Members for Temerloh, Tanjong Malim and Seberang Utara, (Motion) have made a number of points. They Enche' Tan Siew Sin: Mr Speaker, Sir, have also suggested what they felt were in view of the fact that we are running omissions which should be rectified. ahead of time, and I think the Minis­ I can assure them that we will certainly ter of Health is not in the Chamber, study what they have said very care­ I beg to move that the proceedings in fully, and if we feel they can be the Committee of Supply this day be acceded to, they will be certainly given deferred and that this House do now the consideration they deserve. adjourn. Question put, and agreed to. Dato' Haji Sardon: Sir, I beg to That the sums of: second the motion. $3,210,055 for Head S. 23, Question put, and agreed to. $23,957,345 for Head S. 24, Adjourned at 6.57 p.m.

11026—466—5-9-66.