Transcript Q&A ’s Democratic Path: Past, Present and Future

Irakli Alasania Minister of Defence, Georgia

Chair: James Nixey Head, Russia and Eurasia Programme, Chatham House

29 January 2013

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Transcript: Irakli Alasania

James Nixey: Ladies and gentlemen, how many ministers do you know who would come after just a few months into their new appointment and speak so fluently, so widely, without notes, just like that. I think that’s an extraordinary achievement in itself and perhaps goes to testify to what I was saying earlier about Irakli’s exceptional abilities.

I would also say, having chaired the minister two or three times here now in different guises, that that optimism that you talked about just now is not an optimism that you shared with us just two years ago. It shows, ladies and gentlemen, how quickly things can change in that part of the world – for better, sometimes worse I have to say, but not in Georgia. It’s easy to get dispirited about this region of the world, the South Caucasus and Central Asia, Russia, but in fact this is not a stagnant region and it’s not a stagnant country. That’s for certain.

I will open it up but maybe I will make the first question, if you don’t mind, using the privilege of the chair. The eyes of the world are on Georgia – understandably. It’s unavoidable in a 24-hour news cycle, and Georgia’s history makes it perhaps stand out more than many other countries in the region. Clearly people are going to be judging, rightly or wrongly, for better or worse. A lot of academics, people who sit on the fence – like me, here – pontificating from London and abroad, we tend to say: give it time, too early to say, too soon to say. At what point, especially with elections coming up at the end of this year and in two years, as you say, at what point do you think that we will begin to see – I know what you’re going to say. You’re going to say you can already see changes. But at what point do you think it’s fair to sort of begin to really pick Georgia out as a shining example in the Eastern Partnership, or in various international structures? How long do we need to wait to see real, substantial, tangible difference from what went on before?

Irakli Alasania: Definitely it’s going to need time. Even in the new government we understand we have to stand the test of time in the coming year. How well we are going to prepare our society and our system, first of all, for the next elections; how we are going to demonstrate more and more that cohabitation is working; and how we are going to put forward the reforms that are very long-range – this will be demonstrated in this year. So I think 2013 is a crucial year for us as well to start implementing the aspirations that we were campaigning on to the

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Georgian people, and also it’s going to be crucial for you to have something to assess in Georgian progress. I think the crucial year will be 2013.

But again, to be more, I would say, on the safe side – to have more in-depth analysis of Georgia’s consolidation of democracy – will be after the local elections: how well we are going to prepare for this and how well we are going to redistribute power, which never happened in before Georgia, to the regions, to the local communities and local governments. This is going to be the biggest test of Georgia and I’m pretty sure we’re going to be successful in facing this challenge.

Question 1: I have a question regarding the 2008 war. It cost some billions of taxpayers’ money and also loss of trust of people in South Ossetia. Will the operation in the war be investigated and will the fact-finding commission be set up by Georgian authorities, or a parliamentary commission or something like that?

Irakli Alasania: I declared as a minister just a month or so ago that I’m looking forward to commissioning the study – expert study, military study actually – of the past 20 years. What kind of military lessons learned we can acquire from history. But I want to make sure that everybody understands that this is not going to be the way to finger-point or blame someone inside. I want to make sure that from the military standpoint the conduct of the military operation – again, on the strategic, operational and tactical level: how it went, what were the decisions that made this kind of unsuccessful operation – I want to feed this back to the defence strategy and the doctrine of Georgia. So this is purely a military lessons learned commission. This is what I’m looking at.

If, of course, there will be grounds for us to see the kind of criminal misconduct of someone, it’s going to take other agencies to look at it. But my mission is not to finger-point politically because it is way too difficult and I don’t think we’re ready in Georgia to really impartially assess what happened. Basically what happened – we all know. Georgia is under occupation. The sovereign state was occupied by the neighbouring country. It was the first attempt after the breakup of the Soviet Union to militarily change the borders. The international community is not accepting this. Whether it’s enough what they’re doing is a different issue. We don’t have illusions that we can change the existing status quo pretty soon, but I’m pretty sure it will be changed. If

www.chathamhouse.org 3 Transcript: Irakli Alasania you look at the history of Georgia for three millennia, so many times we were chopped up, sliced up by the neighbours but then Georgians got together and stitched our country back. So this is exactly what’s going to happen but it takes patience and time.

This is why the exercise that we are thinking is not about politically blaming someone, it is to learn the lessons from our military mistakes, not to make them in the future.

Question 2: I want to actually salute your nation for the democratic transformation that you have gone through. We have been to Georgia and been impressed both by some of the people in the government and also by the opposition. The ambassador here is witness to that – thank you for your assistance. I also want to support what you said: Georgia is not only the recipient of democratic lessons or security but we are actually learning from you. A lot of countries in Europe, there are populist tendencies, especially in eastern Europe. Let me just mention Hungary, Bulgaria, Macedonia – where I come from – we are all looking at Georgia to see how did Georgia actually manage to overthrow the populist tendencies – let’s call them like that, and not authoritarian – and whether the population will be really ready to embrace democracy. So you are going to be an example that a lot of people will look at and follow, whether democracy really can work. It is also about the democratic path in the future. What would be your message in this context? Can the local population really embrace this kind of narrative you were talking about in the last 30 minutes? Thank you.

Irakli Alasania: Definitely I feel that Georgia can be a role model in that. As I mentioned, the political maturity that Georgians demonstrated in the last election is a testament to how much we have learned from our past mistakes. Again, Georgia’s governments were changed either through violence, coups or revolutions. Georgian people firsthandedly [sic] experienced the negative effects of violent change. This election demonstrated that exactly the people took charge. They came out, they voted. Their turnout on the election day was so high that all the barriers that were built there by the previous government were not enough to stop the people from acting, from really putting forward their voice. This is exactly what I feel that Georgia has a new

www.chathamhouse.org 4 Transcript: Irakli Alasania commodity to export, a new commodity for people to look at. And I’m very proud of my people. So yes.

Question 3: I have a question on the future of the main political actors in Georgia and the future of . It’s a very diverse political grouping. The prime minister in December spoke of potentially having some sort of competition within Georgian Dream. Can you talk about that? What do you see as the political future of the United National Movement and the political future of the prime minister himself? There has been some talk of him leaving after two years. Can you talk about that as well? Thank you.

Irakli Alasania: Yes, Georgian Dream is very diverse – politically, ideologically – but that was a must to unite all the rival political actors to win the elections. It would have been impossible any other way. The Georgian public needed to see the united front on the opposition side, because there was pretty much a lack of credibility in the system and in the politics. This unified front around actually made this change possible and peaceful, because otherwise we would have seen a lot of political street polarization in the country, which nobody wanted to do.

So it’s a diverse group of people. We have some liberals inside, like ourselves, like the Republican Party [of Georgia]. We have conservatives, we have centrists. So naturally there is going to be a new political map in Georgia in the coming years. But the responsibility that we took over the policies that we were advocating, we stand ready to fulfil these jointly in the parliament. So I don’t think in any coming period that Georgian Dream will split. Because there are policies, there are commitments to the public that after the elections we have to fulfil. That’s one thing.

Another thing: the National Movement. They have the opportunity now to rebrand themselves within the parliament, to come out and advocate policies that will be closer to the public. But I’m sceptical generally about their possibility to do this in coming years – for example, to make this happen before presidential or even local elections. But you can never know.

But they will have all the possibilities that we lacked when they were in the government. They will have all the tools that we have – access to the media, political funding, political investments, everything. So I think we put behind www.chathamhouse.org 5 Transcript: Irakli Alasania ourselves already this polarization that was there before the elections, pre- elections. So I think the environment for normal political life, where we agree on certain national security issues but disagree on the economy or some other issues, it will be normal. This will educate our people more and it will make Georgian society more mature, so I’m optimistic about that.

The prime minister – I debated this with him a lot of times, that two years will not be enough to fulfil the commitments that we made to the Georgian public. I’m hopeful that for at least one full term he will govern the country and the government. He is the best person to be in position now, with his business background and his understanding of the investment environment, with his integrity and credibility that he has in the public’s eyes. It’s tremendously important for him to lead this country. Whenever he will feel that the time has come for him to leave politics, he will not shy away – he’s a very open, direct guy. So I personally think that we still have years and years for him to jointly work in Georgian government.

James Nixey: It’s lucky that his line on this has somewhat shifted over the last few months. It was initially a year, then two, then it depends on whether we’ve finished all the work we’ve done.

Irakli Alasania: It’s logical.

Question 4: It has been very, very encouraging to hear all that you have been saying. With my Russian roots, I have a tradition of caring about Georgia. An awful lot of Russians do, as you know better than we do. What I want to ask you is: in light of the really tragic and very painful short war in 2008, in light of what you have been saying and in particular the spreading out of power and therefore of responsibility to the regions, are there any signs that and Southern Ossetia are beginning to think in terms of reintegrating as part of Georgia as a whole? I know it will take time.

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Irakli Alasania: Definitely it will take time, and we should not rush things. I think the demonstration of Georgian society – sincere demonstration – that we are looking forward to communicate with them, we are looking forward to trade with them, we are looking forward to reintroduce ourselves to Abkhaz and Ossetians again – because Abkhaz, Ossetians and Georgians are not the same as we were 35 years ago. A lot of things changed. This is why when they’re going to see this, and they’re feeling this now, it will make it possible to elevate the confidence between the sides on such a level where we can discuss already the politically sensitive issues, like status-related issues.

I’m confident that the non-recognition policy is sustainable. We don’t worry about this, because the world is very solidly supporting Georgia’s territorial integrity. I’m pretty sure the first illusions that these two breakaway authorities had after the war, that their independence can be sustained after the recognition from the Russian side, is also fading away. I’m pretty sure Russians also understand that they failed in the recognition policy.

So I think it’s time now to just stand back from the cliff and say, okay, there are things that we can do before we’re going to tackle these very politically sensitive issues. This is why our pragmatism toward Russia is also going to play a hand here. When Russians will start looking at Georgia not as an enemy but also as a potential partner in trade, potential partner in a humanitarian relationship – we have over a million Georgians living in Russia. Their fate is something we are concerned about. We want to be in touch with them. This blockade and not having sufficient contacts is hurting them and us as well. So I’m pretty sure after a year or two, after this kind of new, workable relationship, manageable relationship with Russia, it will give us more space to think about what happened and how to improve things.

Again, I’m very confident that Georgian territorial integrity will be restored. It’s not going to be in two or three years but I’m pretty sure it will be possible. But we have to start with the right beginnings. Also, patience is really important here, because we cannot rush things. When there was bad blood between us and there were a lot of people killed, a lot of family members hurt – this takes time for us to really think about the future. If we want our kids not to suffer as we did, we have to think about this in a very pragmatic way. This is why status-related political issues, I think we need to tackle very patiently, but work on the trade, work on the human-to-human touch, work on the other aspects of our relationship that are not that difficult to tackle at this point.

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James Nixey: There are very specific examples, it seems to me, of Georgian-Abkhaz cooperation which has hitherto not been seen – in hydroelectricity, I believe, in transport links.

Irakli Alasania: There are things that we can work through with them.

Question 5: I had a question building on the last one, and also what you were saying about the international community. I was wondering what you see as the role of the international community within Abkhazia and South Ossetia. I mean that in a broad sense – not just states but international organizations and international NGOs.

Irakli Alasania: One of the fundamental differences the new government has in its policy objectives, rather than the previous government, vis-à-vis the conflicts is that we think that we have to be talking with the society which is in Abkhazia and the Tskhinvali region. We have to be communicating with them. As well, we have to open them up to the West. They have to learn with their own experience how democracy works, and within democracy, within Europe, with Georgians, they will be better off, rather than staying under a constant occupation.

So in this regard I think the NGO community from Europe and the international community has a lot of potential to grow. I think our policy will be encouraging our Western friends and allies and the NGO community to be more present on the ground, to work with the Abkhaz society and Ossetian society, to make sure that they understand that if they want to be part of the civilized world and democratic societies they have to tackle the issues of, for example, IDPs (internally displaced persons) and Georgians living there, with a different manner than they were doing before. So a lot of education, a lot of connections, a window to Europe for the Abkhaz and Ossetians is something that we have got to encourage – because we are going to benefit from this in the future when we start dealing with the Abkhaz and Ossetians on very politically sensitive issues.

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So opening up, de-isolating Abkhaz society and Ossetian society is a key part here, but not of course giving any illusion to the de facto officials that have been recognized on the international scale. It’s a very delicate balance but it’s a possible balance, because you are dealing with a society, you are dealing with communities that you have to empower and de-isolate them and get them closer to Europe. That’s the task that we have and that is the declared task of the new Georgian government.

Question 6: I was going to ask you about Abkhazia and South Ossetia but I think you answered that question quite well. Perhaps I could just develop it a bit further. When you open the channels of communication with Russians as you outlined, what would be the thing that you would say to Russians that would be really different from the previous government? Where do you stand with Russian negotiations on key issues? The other thing I want to ask is about business relations with Russians. Are you concerned that if your ambitions to develop trade relations with Russians go as well as you want them to be, would Russians have more influence and perhaps more leverage on Georgia than they already have now? Do you have any worries over that?

Irakli Alasania: First of all, Russia’s businesses were enjoying the Georgian market for a very long time. Even after the war – and before the war they were buying Georgian critical infrastructure, like the energy sector. They invested a lot in Georgia and it hasn’t been a problem.

What we are talking about now is to have the same opportunities given to Georgian businesses in the Russian market, after specifically them joining the WTO. So I’m not worried that much about the influence of Russia because they have assets in Georgia but Georgia is steadily progressing toward Euro- Atlantic integration.

What can we offer them? We’re not talking about – again, I want to stress – the politically sensitive issues of occupation. We’re not talking with them at this point about the problems of IDP return, about their military structures and forces in occupied territories. We are talking specifically with them to open up the trade opportunities for Georgians and for them as well. I think in the long term it is in Russia’s national security interest to have a normal at least, or workable, relationship with a neighbour. I think that strikes me as kind of a…

www.chathamhouse.org 9 Transcript: Irakli Alasania the sense that we had taken away from the first, very brief meeting that Prime Minister of Georgia Ivanishvili had in Davos with the Russian prime minister [Dmitry Medvedev]. We will wait and see. We are not rushing this relationship. We know what we want, we know where we are taking Georgia, but we also want to make this endeavour successful, to have a workable relationship with Russia. I think now the ball is on the Russian side. We’ll wait and see how it’s going to develop.

I’m optimistic on the trade side we are going to have progress. When this will go on, I’m pretty sure new opportunities will turn up to us and Russians, to think more about how we’re going to fix other problems in the future. But at this point we are very realistic. We don’t think in the nearest future they will change their policies toward the occupation, they will change their policies toward the aspiration of Georgia to join NATO. But eventually they will understand that to have a more politically stable country in a very sensitive neighbourhood, which is the Caucasus, is in their interest.

James Nixey: And what was the single issue that Mr Ivanishvili and Mr Medvedev spoke about in Davos, for two minutes at a reception?

Irakli Alasania: It was a very brief meeting.

James Nixey: It was one issue, but it wasn’t reported what it was, as I understand it.

Irakli Alasania: Specifically it was that there is a desire on the Georgian side to start normalization. It was very abrupt, it was nothing specific. What is important here to stress: Bidzina Ivanishvili, the prime minister, and the whole government – we want to be very transparent with the Russians about our objectives. There are no back-channel talks; there is no back-channel agreement with them – no. We have to play it very clean, open and transparent.

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Question 7: First I would like to agree with what James said: it’s a real pleasure to listen to your presentation – thank you very much. I was very happy to hear for the second time today your strong commitment to Euro-Atlantic integration. In this regard, the question about the Eastern Partnership, which you mentioned: in general, what is your attitude toward this programme? Do you see it as a vehicle or an obstacle towards the Euro-Atlantic integration of Georgia? Would you be able to support the principles of democracy as regards Belarus, which is a partner, and how generally do you treat Belarus being a partner in this kind of programme of the European Union?

James Nixey: What do you really think of the Eastern Partnership?

Irakli Alasania: I think really it’s a tool. If there is no political will in the country to use this tool, the tool will not be used. If you want to use these tools, they are at your disposal, so you have to be smart about this. As we speak, there is a delegation in Georgia from the European Union, working about the association agreement, about the trade agreement, about the visa facilitation agreement. So all of these are tools that Georgia will use to get closer to Europe, to build institutions that are compatible with European standards. This is exactly what the Georgian public and we want. So this is why I think the instruments that are available and at our disposal – it’s up to us how we’re going to use them. I’m pretty sure that we’re going to conclude successfully in these negotiations with the European Union.

In terms of Belarus, we love Belarusians and this is a brotherly nation. We like of course to have a really strategic relationship with our partners in the region, namely Belarus. But we also see the problems that Belarus is going through right now. We have gone through these ourselves. This is why we are very sympathetic about the issues that you raised in our previous discussions. Is there any way that Georgia can be helpful? I think by giving the examples and experience that we have – that’s why we talked about how we managed to empower people to make the change, how we managed to get a campaign on the grassroots levels even with the very tough environment that we were encountering. Remember, the government took away the citizenship of Bidzina Ivanishvili, not to make the election competitive. They arrested most of his assets. The bank was actually attacked. Our campaigners were put in www.chathamhouse.org 11 Transcript: Irakli Alasania jail and they were just released after the elections. This was all recorded by the international community.

So we were also in a very different environment and operations that we conducted were almost impossible. We did it because the public was fed up with what was happening in the country for nine years. Again, I want to mention that a lot of progress has also been achieved in these three years in reforming some of the structures of Georgian statehood. But again, people voted for us because there was a profound sense of injustice, but as well we demonstrated that we were going the extra mile to change the environment. We were campaigning 24/7 at the grassroots level and in the regions, so this helped us.

So again, to show you our experience, I think that’s the best help we can provide. But in general we have to be very careful in the state-to-state relationship. We don’t want to make statements that in the future will be an obstacle in bilateral relations. But we are very mindful of the problems that we have and we will be always glad to share the experience of how we managed our change.

Question 8: You talked about the bitterness in the pre-election campaign and presumably that didn’t disappear overnight. Perhaps you could say more about how that’s been dissipated or whether that energy has gone.

Irakli Alasania: We didn’t have much time to think about this because we went straight from campaign mode to governing mode. It took up all our energy and still it’s a bit of a challenge, because the mindset that is required to govern the country is quite different from the mindset we had when we were campaigning. But also we realized – I mean, 100 days after the elections we realized that we really need to put some things behind us. We cannot be hostages of the past if we want to move the country forward. This is why we are now more concentrating on the governance. We are concentrating on reforms in the ministries of economy and defence and other sectors of the society. We are thinking that demonstrating to a party in minority now that we’re going to treat them – and we will treat them – better than they were treating us, this is the best way of changing the political bitterness that was there during the political campaign. Those were the first words that Prime Minister Ivanishvili told at

www.chathamhouse.org 12 Transcript: Irakli Alasania the first meeting with President [Mikheil] Saakashvili, when there was a meeting between the two leaders. He said, ‘We’re not going to treat you as you treated us, we’re going to treat you as Georgia deserves – and Georgia deserves better.’

Question 9: You mentioned that under the new regime there will be a change of approach in terms of Georgia–Russia relations, but I wanted to know, with Russia hosting the Winter Olympics in Sochi in 2014, do you think that will provide an opportunity to show this, particularly in terms of security cooperation between the two countries?

James Nixey: Absolutely. Irakli, when you were here last, some two years ago in your previous incarnation, you doubted that Sochi would even be possible. But of course, that was in very different political circumstances in Georgia.

Irakli Alasania: At that point, if there would have been any further escalation in the region in the run-up to Sochi, of course the question marks would have been there. But I think there is opportunity now in the new reality for us and Russians to think about making the Sochi Olympics a success. First of all, we don’t think we will boycott these Olympics, even though – again, let me stress – that 20 per cent of Georgia is occupied illegally by Russian forces. We want to keep the Olympics and sport away from the politics. That’s one thing.

But there are some inherent threats in the run-up to the Sochi Olympics. Russians were always too fast blaming Georgia for any instability in the North Caucasus. This is why I think these threats should be addressed by Georgia and we are addressing these threats. We are enhancing our security; we are enhancing our defence, and also cooperation between defence, special forces and the ministry of internal special forces [sic] to be prepared for any kind of threats from a counterinsurgency or terrorist standpoint

So we will demonstrate to the world and to Russia that we are very responsive to the security concerns that they have. How deep this cooperation will go, I cannot say at this point. But there is a political willingness in Georgia’s new government to make sure that, first, there is not www.chathamhouse.org 13 Transcript: Irakli Alasania going to be any trespassing on Georgian territory of any threat; and second, if there will be possibilities given to us to contribute somehow to a more secure environment for the Olympics, we are more than willing to be part of it.

James Nixey: Ladies and gentlemen, I think what I said at the beginning about Irakli Alasania’s abilities has been more than proven. You also now know he’s an extremely hard worker, having been grilled by the Russia and Eurasia Programme audience and a Chatham House members meeting audience for at least three hours now. That is one thing. The other thing I would just like to say is, of course Chatham House is a neutral organization in every way but you can’t help but wish the new Georgian government well in all its endeavours, and you as well.

Irakli Alasania: Thank you so much, it’s appreciated. Thank you.

James Nixey: Ladies and gentlemen, a round of applause, I believe.

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