Vol. 739 Tuesday No. 44 9 October 2012

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD) HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICIAL REPORT

ORDER OF BUSINESS

Questions House of Lords: Appointments Parliamentary Constituency Boundaries: Review Olympic and Paralympic Games 2012 Railways: Franchises Economic Affairs Committee Membership Motion Justice and Security Bill [HL] Order of Consideration Motion Defamation Bill Second Reading Britain’s Industrial Base Question for Short Debate

Grand Committee Education: Further Education Colleges Question for Short Debate UK Trade and Investment Question for Short Debate Health: Cancer Question for Short Debate Bangladesh: Human Rights Question for Short Debate

Written Statements Written Answers For column numbers see back page

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say that, sadly, we may lose more over the next two House of Lords years. The question of refreshing the House from time to time therefore arises. Tuesday, 9 October 2012. Lord Grocott: The Minister’s Leader, the Deputy 2.30 pm Prime Minister, has repeatedly said—and I agree with him, which surprises me—that the House of Lords, Prayers—read by the Lord Bishop of Derby. the Second Chamber, is too big. How can it be that I agree with the Minister’s Leader while he disagrees House of Lords: Appointments with him? Can he explain to us why he disagrees with Question the Deputy Prime Minister?

2.36 pm Lord Wallace of Saltaire: I am very glad to hear that the noble Lord agrees with Nick. We in this Asked By Lord Hunt of Kings Heath House have to be very careful about saying, “We’re all very comfortable here and we all want to stay, and no To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether further one else should be allowed to come in until there has appointments to the House of Lords are expected been a longer process”. Over a five-year period we to be made during the remainder of the current need to consider the balance of the House and the Parliament. question of the occasional refreshment of its Members, and we are certainly not going to close our minds to Lord Wallace of Saltaire: My Lords, any appointments that in an interim House. We will certainly encourage will continue to be made in line with the commitment some of the older Members to consider statutory in the coalition programme for government to reflect retirement or a long-term leave of absence. the share of the votes secured by the political parties at the most recent general election. Lord Tyler: My Lords, to avoid understandable suspicion, and indeed accusations, of personal self-interest, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, yesterday the would it not be wise for the Government to give a lead Leader of the House, the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, and say that, as far as Ministers are concerned, no made it clear that, regrettably, he and the Government MPs who voted against the Government’s reform Bill will not support the Bill of the noble Lord, Lord Steel, should be nominated to this House? in the other place. Given that, and given the size of this House, is the Minister really saying that the Lord Wallace of Saltaire: I do not think that I Government are determined to make dozens more ought to answer that question. I am very conscious appointments, to increase the size of the House and to that there are those who, in the Corridors of this shore up the political majority of the Government? House, have said to me, among others, that those who Surely not. are asked to leave the House should be compensated for doing so. To that I would say that membership of Lord Wallace of Saltaire: My Lords, the idea that this House is a privilege, not a right, and the idea that we are packing the House with coalition Peers is a one has to be bought out before one leaves is not one little idiotic. Of the 122 appointments made since May that should be considered. 2010, nearly one-third, 39, have been Labour Peers. That is not packing the House on one side. The largest Baroness Hayman: Will the Minister now answer a group in the House remains the Labour Benches. question about which the Government have been reticent? One of the ways in which we wish to maintain a To which of the political parties contesting the last vibrant House is to refresh the House from time to general election does the coalition commitment that time. The committee on retirement has proposed that he has reaffirmed today apply? the statutory retirement scheme is now available. We regret that only two Peers have so far availed themselves Lord Wallace of Saltaire: My Lords, over lunch I of it. However, 20% of this House is now over 80 and, made a calculation which, even though I was unable to as we know that life expectancy in this House is very find a calculator, I hope was correct. If one were to be good, we encourage others to consider that scheme. strictly accurate, the Labour Party as represented in this House is roughly in tune with the percentage that Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: My Lords, how will my it received in the last election. The noble Lord, Lord noble friend explained to the voters of this country the Pearson of Rannoch, is as good as 10 people. The Government’s policy to reduce the size of the House most underrepresented group, as the noble Baroness, of Commons in order to save public money when they Lady Hayman, knows is of course the Liberal Democrats. are now proposing to increase the size of the House of Lords at public expense, having previously brought Lord Cormack: My Lords, if the Government take forward a Bill arguing the importance of reducing it? this House and Parliament seriously, how can they continue to refuse to contemplate reforms along the Lord Wallace of Saltaire: My Lords, the Government lines of those included in the Bill introduced by the are not proposing to increase the size of this House. noble Lord, Lord Steel? My noble friend has referred Sadly, we have lost 40 Members since May 2010; I dare to this as an interim House. Some believe that it can be 923 House of Lords: Appointments[LORDS] Parliamentary Constituency Boundaries 924

[LORD CORMACK] Bill which people wish to promote or the original Steel a permanent House, giving permanent value to our Bill. I have worked through several efforts to get the constitution. The Government are flying in the face of Steel Bill through the House, but it has not received that fact. much welcome in particular from a number of hereditary Peers. Lord Wallace of Saltaire: My Lords, the consensus in this House is not the only factor which has to be Parliamentary Constituency Boundaries: taken into consideration. The House of Commons voted by a substantial majority in favour of the principle Review of an elected second chamber. All three parties had Question the principle of an elected second chamber in their manifestos in the last election and the coalition programme 2.45 pm stated that we will establish a committee to bring Asked By Lord Touhig forward proposals for a wholly or mainly elected upper chamber on the basis of proportional representation. To ask Her Majesty’s Government how much it We want to achieve a consensus. I am looking at the has cost to conduct the review of parliamentary noble Lord, Lord Richard, who has laboured very constituency boundaries in the United Kingdom. hard to achieve a consensus on reforms. That is clearly the only long-term way forward. Lord Wallace of Saltaire: My Lords, the four Boundary Commissions spent about £5.8 million up to the end Lord Richard: My Lords, the noble Lord said that I of August 2012 on the boundary review. They expect tried very hard to get this House and everybody to to spend about £3.8 million from September 2012 to agree that it should be an elected second chamber. Of the end of the review. course I did. But if the Government have decided that they are not going to go for an elected second chamber, Lord Touhig: I am sure that I am not alone in they really must look at the size of this House. You believing that that money would be better spent keeping cannot just leave it on the basis that it is going to creep disabled people, like the Remploy workers, in a job, up to nearly 1,000 and then pretend that somehow or but we are where we are. We remember that the other the Bill introduced by the noble Lord, Lord Conservative and Lib Dem Peers were united in their Steel, will rectify it. It will not. If the Government enthusiasm to pass the Bill to reduce the number of have any sense—I am not sure that they do on this parliamentary constituencies. Does the Minister expect issue—they should now commit themselves actively to both coalition parties to be equally united and enthusiastic pursuing policies whereby the size of this House can to vote for the final report of the Boundary Commissions be reduced. when it comes here next year? Furthermore, will the Minister be voting for it? Lord Wallace of Saltaire: I would welcome proposals from noble Lords as to how we achieve that. I have Lord Wallace of Saltaire: My Lords, we are a mentioned already the voluntary retirement scheme. coalition. We have our open disagreements. I recall Let us discuss off the Floor of the House the possible well the official who said to me last year that it was acceptability of a maximum age. really rather easier working with this coalition than with the Blair/Brown coalition because we have our Lord Steel of Aikwood: My Lords— disagreements in the open whereas they plotted against each other. When it comes to the vote next year, we will consider our views. Lord Scott of Foscote: My Lords— Lord Rennard: My Lords, would the Minister agree Noble Lords: Steel! that perhaps any further public spending would be better aimed at making sure that some of the millions Lord Scott of Foscote: I am grateful to the noble of people in this country who are entitled to vote but Lord. Does it remain the Government’s intention that are unable to do so because they are not on the voting when members of the Supreme Court retire, those register are included in those registers, so they can who are not already Members of this House will be participate in the democracy of our country, rather invited to become Members of this House? than on the Boundary Commission review process, which is now clearly, simply, an academic exercise? Lord Wallace of Saltaire: My Lords, those Supreme Court judges who were Members of this House before Lord Wallace of Saltaire: My Lords, we will be the Supreme Court was separated from it are currently returning to the question of why people resist registering on leave of absence. I am not aware that the Government to vote during the Committee stage of the individual have any definite position on what will happen to electoral registration Bill, and I commend to Members those appointed to the Supreme Court since it was of the House the Electoral Commission study on it, separated from this House. which was published in June. The Steel Bill has clearly now become extremely On how much has been spent, the previous boundaries popular with a number of Members of this House. I review cost £13 million. This review was estimated am not entirely sure whether it is the emasculated Steel to cost £11.5 million and it is now expected to cost 925 Parliamentary Constituency Boundaries[9 OCTOBER 2012] Olympic and Paralympic Games 2012 926

£9 million. Much of the remaining £3.8 million has Olympic and Paralympic Games 2012 already been committed, so even if we said “stop” Question now, the possibility of saving very much money would be small. 2.51 pm Asked By Lord Wigley Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: My Lords, the Deputy Prime Minister has said that Liberal MPs and Liberal To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is the Peers are going to vote against the boundary changes. current estimate of the outturn cost to HM Treasury Is it not crazy to continue with it? Surely, we are going of the London 2012 Olympic and Paralympic Games. to waste nearly £4 million which could be better used. Why are we going ahead with it? I understood that the Viscount Younger of Leckie: It is clear that the new chairman of the Conservative Party said that the Olympic and Paralympic Games this summer were a plan is to withdraw these proposals. Can the Minister great British success story. Much credit should go to make it clear? Are they really pressing ahead with all those involved in the complex planning, organisation these proposals, given that the Deputy Prime Minister and implementation of these events. Following the has said that they are effectively dead in the water? post-bid review of costs, we announced in 2007 a total public sector funding requirement of £9.3 billion. Our quarterly report in June 2012 showed that we were Lord Wallace of Saltaire: I am glad to see that the below budget, with £476 million remaining in noble Lord reads the Daily Mail which, I think, was uncommitted funding. We await the October report, where the report came from. Primary legislation requires due out soon, and there is every reason to believe that the commissions to report to Parliament before October we will remain below budget, so we still expect the 2013, and it would require primary legislation to stop total outturn cost to be less than £9 billion. that. It would then be for Parliament to consider the recommendations. There is precedent for Parliament Lord Wigley: My Lords, in wishing the Minister voting against the acceptance of a Boundary Commission well with his new responsibilities, I concur with his review; it was done by the Labour Government in sentiments and those expressed yesterday about the 1969. undoubted success of the Olympic and Paralympic Games in London. I congratulate all concerned, Lord Kakkar: My Lords, do Her Majesty’s Government particularly the Paralympic competitors, who taught consider that the 221 hours and 24 minutes over the world to maximise personal achievement, despite 35 days spent in your Lordships’ House and the other handicap, through their own endeavours. place on the Parliamentary Voting System and As the next major international athletic competition Constituencies Bill was a wise and mature use of in the UK will be the Commonwealth Games in precious parliamentary time, in view of the fact that Glasgow in 2014, will the Minister confirm that the the Deputy Prime Minister has suggested that Liberal same principle of direct Treasury financial support Democrat Ministers and MPs will vote against the will be given to the Glasgow games as was given to the secondary legislation when it comes before this Parliament? London Olympics? Likewise, will he confirm that, in the event of the 2026 games coming to Cardiff, they Lord Wallace of Saltaire: My Lords, I think that it can work on the same assumption? would be a little brave of me to say what I thought was a useful use of the time of this Chamber or of the Viscount Younger of Leckie: I thank the noble Lord other Chamber and what I thought was not. I have sat for that question. I do not have any details, looking through a number of debates over the last 15 years ahead, of those particular events. I do not believe that that I have felt were not useful uses of this Chamber’s we are quite at that stage. However, I will absolutely time. keep the noble Lord’s sentiments in mind and will return to him when I can.

Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town: My Lords, is it Lord Anderson of Swansea: My Lords, the Games not necessary that we have some certainty here? It is have meant that it has been a remarkable year, but not just about money. There are candidates to be there has been one failure. The Minister will recall the selected and party organisation to take place. The promise made at the outset of the Games that all parts Prime Minister can bring certainty now by introducing of the United Kingdom would benefit from the primary legislation, or by making it absolutely clear expenditure. In fact, the regions of Wales have benefited that these boundary changes will not be going ahead, very little indeed from this £9 billion. It has amounted which will save money and enable people to get on in effect to a massive subsidy to London and the with the existing boundaries. south-east. In what way, perhaps for the amount not spent or in other ways, will Wales, Scotland, Cornwall, Lord Wallace of Saltaire: My Lords, I take that the north-east and the north-west be compensated for point and I simply reiterate that in all matters of the failure of a clear promise? political and constitutional reform and order, it is much the best if we can achieve consensus among all the Viscount Younger of Leckie: I do not agree with the parties. However, we have to remember that one of the noble Lord’s question to the extent that I believe that reasons why we are not proceeding with House of the whole of the United Kingdom has benefited. Lords reform is because the Labour Opposition in the I would point out that the legacy of the Olympic and House of Commons voted down the programme Motion. Paralympic Games will not be seen for some time. 927 Olympic and Paralympic Games 2012[LORDS] Olympic and Paralympic Games 2012 928

[VISCOUNT YOUNGER OF LECKIE] budget was set as far back as 2007, although it was I would also point out, as we have Welsh representation admittedly revised from the 2003 pre-bid. I pay tribute here today, that £38 million of business was generated to LOCOG, which produced a balanced budget and from Wales. Indeed, a lot has happened throughout did tremendously well in sponsorship. It should be the United Kingdom and we should remember the congratulated wholeheartedly. thousands of sports clubs that have been set up, the school sports around the whole country and the youth sport strategy, which covers the whole country, not Lord Dubs: Does the Minister agree that among the just London. many successes of this remarkable summer has been that of projecting the Paralympics on to the national stage in a way that has never happened before? Can we Lord Addington: My Lords, does my noble friend congratulate the television people—I think it was Channel agree that the soft legacies of the Olympics are probably 4 in this case—on giving the people in the Paralympics the most important and that a classic example of such that enormous prominence, which I believe will change legacies must be the role of the volunteers? What attitudes to the Paralympics for ever? activity are the Government undertaking to ensure that such events as next year’s Rugby League World Cup, the Rugby Union World Cup in 2015 and the Viscount Younger of Leckie: I wholeheartedly agree Commonwealth Games maximise and build on that with the noble Lord. Having watched much of the model of volunteering, which has been so valuable? Paralympics, I was greatly moved by the events. I was also greatly impressed by the television coverage, to Viscount Younger of Leckie: I am delighted that my which the noble Lord alluded, and by the previews of noble friend has brought up the issue of the volunteers. all the events, not just the Paralympic ones. For example, They were absolutely fantastic. Noble Lords may or I thought that the UK editing was outstanding. I do may not know that there were 70,000 Games makers. not think that we have ever seen that before in any They were volunteers. It is fair to say that their travel other Olympic Games. within zones one to six was paid for, and I think that they managed to receive their lunch, but otherwise Lord West of Spithead: My Lords, does the Minister they very willingly and always with smiles gave of their agree that one of the great successes of the Olympics time. In answer to my noble friend’s question, looking and Paralympics was how well our military stepped ahead to the rugby events that he mentioned, I do not into the breach and made them run well, and that they quite know where we stand but I hope to come back to deserve immense congratulations on that? That means him soon with that information. that the cost figures may not be exactly what they seem. The military can always provide a capability in Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale: My Lords, looking an emergency of any kind in this country. Does the forward to the Commonwealth Games in 2014, are the Minister agree that reducing our military by some Government aware that the new Emirates indoor arena 30,000 is a bit of a problem when one looks to the in Glasgow is now open, including the Sir Chris Hoy future? velodrome? It is not only open but was delivered within a budget of £113 million and on time. It is now being used by the public two years ahead of the games. Viscount Younger of Leckie: I take note of what the Will the Government congratulate Glasgow City Council noble Lord has said. I do not want to go into the cuts on this achievement, wish it and the organising committee element of that, but say only that I wholeheartedly well and ensure that the work of the noble Lord, Lord agree with him that the military stepped into the Coe, on the legacy from the Olympics includes every breach, as it were, extremely readily, again with smiles, part of the United Kingdom? and that they should be wholeheartedly congratulated.

Viscount Younger of Leckie: I am delighted that the Lord Howell of Guildford: My Lords, I wish to noble Lord has mentioned Glasgow; I come from reinforce what the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, has said. north of the border. I wholeheartedly agree with the Will the Minister bear in mind that the Commonwealth comments that he has made. Games in Glasgow in 2014 will be a spectacular event and a major help to this country vis-à-vis its position Lord Deben: Before my noble friend is led astray by in the Commonwealth network, which is growing in those who want to complain about things or ask that strength at all times? The fact that one of the biggest they should be extended, will he repeat that this is a indoor athletic stadiums in Europe has been built remarkable achievement, that it was brought in within bang on time and well within budget is a major budget—something that most people said was impossible achievement. Will the Minister tell all his colleagues in —and that there should be very clear congratulations government that it should be supported to the maximum from this House to those who have achieved that end? and that the public should give all the encouragement to it that they gave to the Olympic Games? Viscount Younger of Leckie: I wholeheartedly agree with my noble friend. Indeed, it is a tremendous feat Viscount Younger of Leckie: That is very much that we are looking as if we will come in well below noted. I thank the noble Lord very much; he is absolutely budget. The House should remember that that particular right. 929 Olympic and Paralympic Games 2012[9 OCTOBER 2012] Railways: Franchises 930

Railways: Franchises and Ministers should be examined in the forthcoming Question review? Is he aware that since last Tuesday the only steps that have been taken have been the suspension of 3pm three fairly junior officials and the establishment of a review under a member of the DfT’s own board, Asked by Lord Kennedy of Southwark whose colleagues include all of the senior Ministers and officials of the department? Does the noble Earl To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their agree that this is not a wise proceeding in public policy estimate of the cost to the public purse of cancelling and it is probably not very moral either? the contract award for the West Coast Main Line railway franchise. Earl Attlee: My Lords, I do not agree with the noble Lord. The first step that the Government have Earl Attlee: My Lords, my right honourable friend taken is to set up two inquiries. The first one, headed the Secretary of State for Transport will make a full up by Sam Laidlaw, will look at exactly what went Statement in the other place at the earliest opportunity. wrong. If there was ministerial failure, no doubt he The department will remunerate fully bidders for the will identify that. direct and reasonable costs of putting together their bids and expects this cost to be approximately £40 million. Lord Adonis: Sam Laidlaw is a member of the The department expects additional costs from mobilising DfT’s own board. Is the noble Earl not aware of that? Directly Operated Railways, reissuing the tender and carrying out two independent reviews. The department Earl Attlee: My Lords, if there is anything wrong will monitor these costs closely and be fully transparent with the report, the noble Lord will be able to challenge in keeping the House informed. me in this House on that very point. The first inquiry will look at what went wrong. The second inquiry will Lord Kennedy of Southwark: My Lords, it is very look at the wider franchising issues, as I said in response regrettable that the noble Earl has not taken the first to my noble friend. We should be proud of our civil opportunity in Parliament to say sorry for this fiasco. servants. I certainly feel honoured to be served by He should be truly ashamed of what has gone on so I them. However, officials are human and can make invite him to take the opportunity to apologise. Why mistakes, even big ones. Nevertheless, I want to make are the Government saying there have been regrettable it perfectly clear that I retain full confidence in my and unacceptable mistakes and yet no Minister is department’s officials and I am more than content to accepting responsibility? account for their activities in your Lordships’ House.

Earl Attlee: My Lords, some noble Lords express The Lord Bishop of Exeter: My Lords, in the light disappointment that a full Statement has not been of the noble Earl’s earlier answer about the award of made. Nobody asked for a full Statement. I was very other franchises, is he aware of the concerns that are willing to answer a PNQ yesterday afternoon but there already there about the award of a new franchise for was not one because we have the topical question the West Country? Can he indicate the likely impact of today. As for ministerial responsibility, noble Lords any review and the rerunning of this bid on the award know perfectly well that this was a highly regrettable of other franchises, including one that has a considerable mistake by officials, not by Ministers. impact on the economy of the south-west? Earl Attlee: My Lords, it is a little early for me to Lord Bradshaw: Will the noble Earl send word to answer in that much detail, but the process for the his colleagues elsewhere that no new franchises should western region is being paused. However, the difficulty, be let for any railway until full consideration is made of course, is with the west coast main line franchise. of the high level of risk which the Government are seeking to transfer to the private sector? I believe that Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, the House the private sector is unable to bear that risk because should congratulate the noble Earl on being one of predicting revenues 15 years hence is nearly impossible. two junior Ministers in the department who have I commend him to the Mayor of London who is survived. Is it not the case that the other Ministers running the London Overground railway on an entirely who presided over this debacle scuttled just before the different basis where the revenue risk lies with the news broke, thereby denying the absolutely fundamental GLC and the people running the franchise are paid principle of parliamentary democracy that the buck to operate the railway efficiently but are not expected stops with Ministers? to take these unbearable risks. Earl Attlee: My Lords, that was a good try. We will Earl Attlee: My noble friend asks extremely good have to see what the reports come out with. questions and that is the purpose of the Brown review which will look into the franchising system and report Lord Campbell-Savours: My Lords— back to us by the end of the year. Lord Butler of Brockwell: My Lords, the chairman Lord Adonis: My Lords, does the noble Earl agree, of the Public Accounts Committee has pointed out given the scale of the debacle we have seen on the west that since 2006 there have been eight separate Secretaries coast main line, that the responsibility of senior officials of State—more than one a year—and since 2001 there 931 Railways: Franchises[LORDS] Defamation Bill 932

[LORD BUTLER OF BROCKWELL] matters. Surely the Deputy Leader of the House can have been six different Permanent Secretaries at the give us an answer. Will we get an answer to a PNQ if it department. In view of that, are the Government is tabled later this week? surprised when things go wrong in a department? Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: My Lords, perhaps I Earl Attlee: My Lords, if that is the cause of the may explain to my noble friend and other noble Lords problem, I am sure that Sam Laidlaw will identify it. that to date we do not have business questions in this House. It is very difficult to raise them and we must Lord Campbell-Savours: My Lords, if I were to ask the Procedure Committee to look at the matter. I table— agree that there should be space to ask business questions. I should also explain that PNQs are a matter for the Lord Speaker of this House, but I advise the Government Economic Affairs Committee that tomorrow I will certainly table a PNQ on the west Membership Motion coast main line for consideration by the Lord Speaker, because it is imperative that we receive answers to 3.07 pm these questions. Moved By The Chairman of Committees Lord McNally: That was an extremely helpful That Lord Skidelsky be appointed a member intervention from the Leader of the Opposition. Let of the Select Committee in place of Lord Currie of us move on. Marylebone, resigned. Lord Barnett: My noble friend Lord Foulkes referred Motion agreed. to me and the Leader of the House. I should explain to the House that I have since had a personal apology from the Leader of the House, although I cannot help Justice and Security Bill [HL] thinking that it should have been in the House. Order of Consideration Motion Lord McNally: I take note of that. If we go down 3.07 pm the route of business questions, perhaps without the Moved By Lord Wallace of Tankerness abuse that goes on in the other place, we could have discussions in the usual channels. That the amendments for the Report stage be marshalled and considered in the following order: Motion agreed. Clause 1, Schedule 1, Clauses 2 to 15, Schedules 2 and 3, Clause 16. Defamation Bill Second Reading Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: My Lords, how is it possible to get clarification of what the noble Earl, Lord Attlee, said in reply to a question? I was not clear 3.10 pm whether he said that a Private Notice Question, if we Moved By Lord McNally tabled one, would be answered by him this week. It is unsatisfactory that we have not had an apology or any That the Bill be read a second time. explanation for one of the worst débâcles we have seen for years. The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally): My Lords, first, I welcome the noble Lord, Noble Lords: Order! Lord Browne, as the lead opposition spokesman on the Bill. I look forward to working with him and with the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, on it. I also welcome Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: This is in order. Surely the noble Lord, Lord Ahmad, as my chief aide. He has the Deputy Leader of the House can answer. taken over in the Ministry of Justice from the noble Baroness, Lady Verma, who used to placate me on the The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord Front Bench from time to time and to help me through McNally): You are not in the other place now and you Bills. I should, perhaps, put on the record that I hope are abusing the procedure of this House. That matter that the noble Lord, Lord Ahmad, will provide a link is not before the House at the moment. with Members in all parts of the House—not only on this Bill but on MoJ business in general. I look forward Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: With respect, we are to working with him. considering the business of the House, and when my I am delighted to open this debate today as the noble friend Lord Barnett raised the matter previously, Defamation Bill begins its passage through the House. he was abused by the Leader of the House for doing The Bill fulfils the commitment in the coalition agreement so. My noble friend was told by the Leader of the to review the law of libel to protect legitimate free House that consideration of the business of the House— speech. I would like to begin by thanking those in the currently relating to consideration of the Justice and other place for their work on the Bill so far—in Security Bill—was the point at which to raise these particular my right honourable friend the Secretary of 933 Defamation Bill[9 OCTOBER 2012] Defamation Bill 934

State for Justice and Lord Chancellor, Chris Grayling, powerful interests overseas with tenuous connections and his predecessor Kenneth Clarke. I also thank the to this country use the threat of British libel laws to Ministers, old and new, in my department who have suppress criticism as part of so-called libel tourism. assisted in steering the Bill through the other place. It is also a fact that our current libel regime is not However, I consider that today the Bill has come well suited to the internet. Legitimate criticism sometimes home. Indeed, it was in this place that my noble friend goes unheard because website operators, as providers Lord Lester of Herne Hill produced a Private Member’s of the platforms on which vast amounts of information Bill on this subject back in 2010. I would like to take are published, often choose simply to remove material this opportunity to place on record my enormous which is complained of rather than risk proceedings thanks to my noble friend Lord Lester, and to his being brought against them. Meanwhile, individuals expert team of Heather Rogers QC and Sir Brian can be the subject of scurrilous rumour and allegation Neill, for their advice and assistance to me and to the on the web without meaningful remedy against the Ministry of Justice in helping us to develop the provisions people responsible. that are contained in the Bill here today. We need to refocus and modernise our law on However, my vote of thanks does not stop there. defamation so that it offers effective protection, whether The Defamation Bill was published in draft in the first offline or online, for both freedom of speech and the Session of this Parliament for full public consultation reputation of those who have been defamed. It is my and pre-legislative scrutiny. The Joint Committee of hope that the Bill will do that, but I am well aware that Parliament that was established to undertake that this is new territory for legislation. scrutiny was expertly chaired by my noble friend Lord Mawhinney. I am grateful to him and his colleagues on I now turn to the detail of the Bill. I see it as a first the committee for their very careful consideration of priority to ensure that the law is reformed so that the issues and for their extremely detailed and helpful trivial and unfounded actions for defamation do not report. I have also made it part of my responsibilities succeed and indeed are discouraged from being started. to engage in discussions with a wide range of interests Clause 1 therefore raises the bar for a statement to be outside Parliament who have brought this issue to the defamatory by proposing that it must have caused or forefront of public debate, many of whom have provided be likely to cause serious harm to the reputation of the briefings to this House in advance of today’s debate. It claimant. Where the draft Bill sought views on a test would be remiss of me not to extend my thanks also of “substantial harm”, which was intended to reflect to the many groups and individuals that responded to current law, the new clause draws on the views of the our public consultation on the draft Bill. Joint Committee on the draft Bill and the balance of opinions received in consultation by nudging up this This Bill was built on a Private Member’s Bill, threshold. Our intention is to give more confidence to followed by consultation, pre-legislative scrutiny, a defendants such as those in some of the cases brought draft Bill and consideration in the other place. It is not against NGOs and scientists in recent years. a Bill that divides us on party lines. Indeed, I have made no secret of the fact that my intention in bringing Alongside a stronger test, we also want to simplify this Bill before Parliament has always been to end up and clarify the defences available to those accused of with legislation that works. I believe that it is timely libel. As they stand, they are unnecessarily complicated because of the mounting concern in recent years that and too narrowly focused on cases relating to mainstream our defamation laws are out of date, costly and over- journalism rather than the online world, NGOs, complicated. They give us the worst of all worlds by academics, scientists and so forth. damaging freedom of speech without affording proper The Bill also clarifies that qualified privilege extends protection to those who are defamed. to reports of scientific and academic conferences. In a Freedom of expression is the cornerstone of our further important step forward for the protection of democracy. In an open society, people should be at scientists and academics, Clause 6 creates a defence of liberty to debate a subject without fear or favour, qualified privilege for peer-reviewed material in scientific whether the matter is political, scientific, academic, and academic journals—again, as recommended by religious or anything else. That is how power is held to the Joint Committee. account, abuses of authority uncovered and truth There are also provisions seeking to address libel advanced. However, freedom of speech does not mean tourism, which has damaged this country’s reputation that people should be able to ride roughshod over the around the world as an advocate of freedom. Although reputations of others without regard to the facts. relatively few foreign libel cases ultimately end up in Careers and indeed lives can be destroyed by false British court rooms, I am concerned about the use of allegations that are incapable of properly being answered. threatened proceedings by wealthy foreigners and public The issue for our defamation laws is ultimately one of figures to stifle investigation and reporting. Clause 9 striking the right balance between protection of freedom of the Bill addresses the issue in a measured and of expression on the one hand and protection of proportionate way while avoiding any conflict with reputation on the other. European law. It clarifies that a court will not hear a The law as it stands has allowed a situation to case against someone who is not domiciled in the UK, develop where the threat of lengthy and costly proceedings another EU member state, or a state which is a party has sometimes been used to frustrate robust scientific to the Lugano Convention unless satisfied that England and academic debate, to impede responsible investigative and Wales is clearly the most appropriate place to journalism and to undermine the good work undertaken bring the action. It should help to ensure that powerful by many NGOs. Nor can it be a matter of pride when interests around the world will not easily be able to use 935 Defamation Bill[LORDS] Defamation Bill 936

[LORD MCNALLY] Currently, cases can drag on for too long before they British justice to gag their critics, which is a move that reach full trial and that can lead to costs being built up I hope will be welcome across the House. unnecessarily. Getting early resolution of key issues In addition to protecting freedom of expression often leads to early settlements. The Government are and reputation, the Bill seeks to modernise the law. keen to encourage that. The Government are grateful Currently, website operators are at risk of action for to the Joint Committee for its recommendations, including the content of material that they may host, even if those on the use of alternative dispute resolution in they do not control the content. Most operators are defamation cases. However, when looking at procedural not in a position to know whether the material posted reform, we need to be aware of the wider context, and is defamatory or not and very often, faced with a recommendations that impact on this area may come complaint, will immediately remove material rather out of Lord Justice Leveson’s report. than face the possibility of defamation proceedings, While I believe that it is important to wait for the however real or remote that possibility may be. That outcome of the Leveson inquiry with respect to the leads to an unnecessarily chilling effect on free speech. procedural aspects of defamation reform, I am clear The Government want a libel regime for the internet that we should not allow that process to impact on the that makes it possible for people to protect their content—or indeed the timescale—of our reforms to reputations effectively but also ensures that information the substantive law contained in this Defamation Bill. online cannot be easily censored by casual threats of Leveson is largely focused on issues other than defamation litigation against website operators. Clause 5 of the and should not be used as an excuse to delay this Bill. Bill sets out a framework for how we wish to achieve Opportunities to get this area of law right do not come this. along too often. There was a Defamation Act in 1952 and another in 1996. This is the first opportunity we As your Lordships know, technology develops apace, have had to consider the law in Parliament since the and rather quicker than primary legislation. Had we explosion of the internet age and we might wait a long sought to specify the detail of the system that we time for another chance. What is more—and with propose for the internet, we would have risked it being perhaps uncharacteristic modesty—the other place out of date before noble Lords had concluded their has left scope for this House to apply its expertise to considerations. Rather, we propose that much of the this Bill. My approach has been to listen and apply the detail will be set out in regulations. We will be seeking dictum of the late President Truman, “Spread a little views on the content of these regulations by the end of of the credit and you will be surprised how far you the year. can go”. The Bill will make significant changes to the law of In another place, my ministerial colleagues at the defamation—changes that I would argue are very Ministry of Justice made it clear that there is one area much for the better. However, they should not be seen of the Bill in particular where we are reflecting in the in isolation. As I have already mentioned, one of the light of the views we receive. This is in the area of the biggest areas of concern in relation to defamation defence of responsible publication on a matter of proceedings centres on the costs involved. As the public interest, contained within Clause 4 of the Bill. I House will recall, earlier this year we had some debates am sure there will be more views forthcoming on that about the costs and funding provisions on what is now clause during the debate. I will be sure to take note of the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders them and we look forward to further discussions on Act. Part 2 of that Act reforms no-win no-fee conditional Clause 4 in Committee. fee agreements, or CFAs, to reduce costs and to make I believe that the package of measures contained in them fairer as between claimants and defendants. Those this Bill meets our aim of rebalancing the law in a fair provisions come into effect in April next year, including and effective way, so that free speech is not unjustifiably for defamation and privacy cases. During those debates, impeded and so that debate on issues of public importance particular concerns were raised by a number of noble is able to thrive, while still providing appropriate remedies Lords—the noble Lords, Lord Martin and Lord Prescott, for those who have been defamed. It is a sound, and others—about the effect of our reforms on less reforming Bill and one that I hope can command well off parties. At that time, I acknowledged those cross-party support. I genuinely look forward to working concerns, and I gave a commitment to look at the rules with all parts of the House to bring forward a Bill of on costs protection for defamation and privacy claims which we can be justly proud. In commencing our in preparation for when the defamation reforms come work, perhaps we should take on board the warning into effect. contained in the editorial in today’s Guardian, which I have asked the Civil Justice Council to help us on says that, costs protection for defamation and privacy claims by “weighing free expression against protection of reputation is art looking at the case for it and options for reform. The as much as science”. council is an advisory body chaired by the Master of Fortunately, we have an abundant supply of both the Rolls. I have asked him to report by the end of artists and scientists in this House. I commend the Bill March 2013. That will allow us to make, if appropriate, to the House. any rule changes in time for the Defamation Bill coming into effect. 3.28 pm In addition to the issues on costs, we are developing a new procedure to resolve key preliminary issues at as Lord Browne of Ladyton: My Lords, I thank the early a stage as possible, which was something that I Minister for his welcome. I had not expected to deal know was of great interest to the Joint Committee. with this legislation and I have spent quite a substantial 937 Defamation Bill[9 OCTOBER 2012] Defamation Bill 938 part of the Recess reading up. For a moment, I thought Bill and beyond. I suspect that both the Joint Committee that I had missed something else. I knew that there report and the Private Member’s Bill will prove to be was a failure of communication over the content of sources of inspiration when we come to Committee. the reshuffle in certain places and I wondered if the noble Lord, Lord McNally, maybe knew something It is important that in any review and reform of about a phone call that I should have got during the defamation laws we get the right balance between reshuffle that did not materialise. I also take this freedom of speech and expression on the one hand opportunity to welcome the noble Lord, Lord Ahmad and protecting reputations on the other. There have of Wimbledon, to his post in the department. I look been justified concerns that our defamation laws are forward to working with him closely on the Bill and to outdated, have fallen behind technological developments, his educating me on the detail, to the extent that I have have restricted freedom of expression and have attracted been unable to master it so far. libel tourism. I say “our” defamation laws despite standing here as a Scottish lawyer and never having We support the Bill to the extent that it seeks to practised in English law, if noble Lords will excuse reform our outdated libel laws. We also support it that poetic licence for the purpose of making my because—as the noble Lord, Lord McNally, made points. plain—it has its roots in what the previous Government did and because all three main political parties committed The current system is also skewed by the high cost themselves to reforming defamation law in their election of defamation proceedings. The Defamation Bill should manifestos. However, as the Minister reminded us in leave us with laws that are clearer and, much more his letter yesterday, that commitment to reform was importantly, more proportionate. As I have already translated in the coalition agreement to a commitment made clear, we welcome a number of elements of this to review the law of libel to protect free speech. The Bill. However, we are disappointed with the way in word “reform” somehow fell off the agreement when which the Government have approached it in the other the two parties went into discussion on a commitment place and feel an opportunity has been wasted, thus to reform. far, to reform and improve our defamation laws. What The first question for the Minister is whether the we have here, subject to one or two minor changes, is Bill, which in its present form largely codifies, and not reform but codification. As we know, a Joint reforms little, is a reflection of the commitment of the Committee of both Houses scrutinised the draft Bill coalition Government or is the aggregate position of and came forward with a number of suggestions for two reforming parties on defamation law. The Minister, how the final Bill could be improved. Many of these or the noble Lord, Lord Ahmad, may have an opportunity were ignored by the Government. In the House of to enlighten me about that at some stage during the Commons, we were concerned that the Bill as originally course of this debate. published did not address a number of problems and we sought to amend the Bill to improve it. The We support the Bill, but are critical friends of it and Government refused to take on board suggested hope to see it amended significantly during its passage amendments, although they turned up on Report with through your Lordships’ House. I thank the Minister two of those amendments, redrafted, which were accepted. both for his speech of introduction and for the helpful We will revisit many of these in Committee but this is letter that he circulated yesterday, I believe to all not the time to go through the detail of the Committee Members of the House. I am told by informed sources stage. that he is the department’s principal promoter of the Bill and is the Minister who was responsible for piloting Finally, the Government so far have failed to publish it through the Committee stage in the House of Commons. much of the detail of the Bill in the form of regulations Apparently the Commons did not share his passion and guidance. I listened carefully to the Minister’s for reform of this area of law; accordingly we have assurances about what we can expect in the future. high hopes of him. They have repeatedly been asked to publish more Before I turn to specific clauses of the Bill, I want information on regulations and other parts of the to associate myself with the words of the Minister to infrastructure that are important to understand the the extent that he has recorded thanks and appreciation effects of this Bill but so far have refused to do so. It is to those who have played a role in getting the Bill to undoubtedly the case that for this and other reasons, this stage. I associate myself with the recognition of although this will be in Committee relatively soon, it the noble Lord, Lord McNally, of the role played by will be difficult properly to scrutinise and discuss the Libel Reform Campaign and others too numerous many aspects of the proposals in the Bill in the absence to mention. If the Minister will excuse me, I will not of that information. We will not be able to work out go through the exhaustive list of all those who have what this will mean on the ground unless we have been lobbying us—our inboxes are all full of their some sense of the infrastructure in which it is to sit. briefings on this. I am sure your Lordships will want to pay tribute to my right honourable friend Jack I listened carefully to the warning from the noble Straw and the working group that he established when Lord, Lord McNally, in relation to what I am about to he was Secretary of State, and of course to the Joint do. The conclusion of the passage of the Bill will come Committee of both Houses, under the able leadership shortly before the anticipated report by Lord Justice of the noble Lord, Lord Mawhinney, which scrutinised Leveson. It comes in the context of a continuing but the draft Bill. It is also appropriate to recognise the as yet unshaped review of the law of privilege, and sustained contribution of the noble Lord, Lord Lester, with the failure of the Government to show their hand particularly in relation to his original Private Member’s on the rules on cost protection for defamation in 939 Defamation Bill[LORDS] Defamation Bill 940

[LORD BROWNE OF LADYTON] know. We have requested that the regulations be approved privacy claims. All the regulations that we have been through affirmative rather than negative resolution promised will be required for significant parts of the procedure because they are so significantly important Bill. to this process, but so far that change has not been The Bill consequently sits in a much broader, potentially accepted. It may be that this new listening department confused and changing landscape. This may not be will be prepared to reconsider that. This is a key area. able to be fully clarified by the Government during Technological developments have advanced much quicker their deliberations. However the maximum amount of that our laws, and we need well thought-out and clarity must be given to ensure that this set of reforms potentially sustainable reform because this area of our or changes will be sustainable beyond those that we life moves much quicker than any other. We will need can expect from the Government and the response to to try to anticipate how those who wish to defeat any Lord Justice Leveson, or in relation to the changes in regulation we put in place will move in order to defeat the rules for the court or the rules on costs. that regulation. We will be seeking more clarity on this clause, and seeking to amend it in Committee. This is a relatively small Bill, now with 17 clauses. I will deal with these clauses relatively quickly, concentrating We welcome Clauses 6 and 7 and are pleased on where we see the need for further scrutiny, or have that the Government followed the committee’s criticisms or proposals for amendment in mind. Clause 1 recommendations and, particularly, that Clause 6 seeks to impose a higher threshold for bringing a introduces a new defence of qualified privilege relating claim, a requirement that a statement must have caused to peer-reviewed material in scientific and academic “serious harm” to be defamatory. We support this journals. Clause 8 introduces a single publication rule higher hurdle for the reasons set out but believe that to prevent an action being brought in relation to there needs to be greater clarity as to what “serious publication of the same material by the same publisher harm” would mean in practice. We will probe the after a one-year limitation period. We support this Government to get that clarity in Committee. Clauses 2 clause. to 7 set out the defences that will be available for a Clause 9 addresses libel tourism. Concerns have claim of defamation. Some replace or codify common-law been expressed that defamation law in England and defences; others create new defences. We will probe the Wales is more protective of reputation than elsewhere Government’s thinking in relation to Clauses 2 and 3, in the world and that London has become the preferred but we broadly support them and see them as an location for defamation actions involving parties with improvement in the law. only a tenuous link to the jurisdiction. Although the We will test whether, as drafted, Clause 4’s intention extent of this issue is subject to debate, while we agree to address responsible publication of matters of public with the need to reduce the potential for trivial claims interest makes the law clearer and more readily applicable and address libel tourism—whatever its extent—we outside mainstream journalism as claimed. The think that the necessary changes should be made to Government’s assertion that it does is not supported the Civil Procedure Rules before the Bill comes into by the evidence of the Libel Reform Campaign. Simply force, so that we are able to discuss the practical replacing an existing defence that does not work and implications of this change. is not accessible with the statutory codification of it We support the objective of Clause 10—to limit the does not solve the problem. More importantly, there is circumstances under which an action can be brought a growing and persuasive argument that there is a against someone who is not the primary publisher of place for a whole new approach to this issue, either the statement—but do not think it affords sufficient through a new and effective public interest defence in protection. We tabled a number of amendments in the addition to what is in the Bill, or by sweeping away other place and we will revisit almost all of these. what is presently in the Bill and recasting it. We support Clause 11 but would like to see detailed On Report in the other place, the Under-Secretary guidance relating to the criteria for the judge to consider of State, Mrs Helen Grant, indicated that the new when deciding whether a jury trial should be ordered. ministerial team had an open mind about that proposal. I digress from my notes here to remind noble Lords This is what I believe the rather enigmatic Clause 7, that I am a Scottish lawyer. I practised all of my life in mentioned on page 2 of yesterday’s letter from the a jurisdiction where we did not have the deference to noble Lord, Lord McNally, refers to. He expanded on jury trials that the English jurisdiction has. I did it also that today and has told us that is exactly what he has during a period when we shared a Parliament—when an open mind about. It would be helpful if we heard both Houses of this Parliament regularly legislated for discussions across those interested parties and across the administration of justice both in civil and criminal the House to see whether we can come to agreement jurisdiction in a non-jury environment without any on a reform or recasting of this part of the Bill to demur or question as to whether or not it was doing make sure that it passes the test that he set in his letter injustice. to us yesterday. Since I have become a parliamentarian, I have We think that Clause 5 is ill thought-out and listened to hours of English men and women saying incomplete. It creates a new defence for the operators that the only way to deliver justice is through a jury of websites where a defamation action is brought trial, and that any other way of doing it is an injustice. against them in respect of a statement posted on their I am always mildly amused by that, as your Lordships website. Importantly, the detail of the defence—we are can imagine. Although now that we have our own told—will be provided in draft regulations which we Parliament things are different, there are hundreds of have not yet seen and the shape of which we do not years of this Parliament legislating for a country in 941 Defamation Bill[9 OCTOBER 2012] Defamation Bill 942 which the prosecutor decided whether you got a jury In his contribution to Third Reading, the Secretary trial. It did that without any concern at all. I say of State for Justice paid tribute to my right honourable finally, to summarise and get myself out of this kind friends in the Commons for the measured, constructive of cul-de-sac that I have got myself into, that I could and thorough way in which the Bill proceedings had paper the wall with the names of miscarriages of been conducted. We intend to continue that approach justice that I have witnessed in courts, many of which and expect in return that the Government’s promise of have been perpetrated by juries. Anyway, we support an open-minded approach, made repeatedly during Clause 11—but would like to see the detailed guidance Report and Third Reading in the Commons and repeated relating to how the judge will apply it—and we welcome by the Minister in his letter yesterday, will be lived Clauses 12, 13 and 14. up to. The Bill does not make any specific provision for costs or striking out claims. Instead, we are asked to 3.46 pm accept the assurance of the Minister and his ministerial colleagues that these issues will be dealt with elsewhere. Viscount Colville of Culross: I declare an interest as I remind the noble Lord, Lord McNally, that during a producer/director still working at the BBC and as a the progress of the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment vice-chairman of the All-Party Parliamentary Libel of Offenders Bill to which he referred earlier, he gave Reform Group. I very much welcome the Bill. I have my noble friend Lord Prescott an assurance that the read the lengthy evidence given to the Joint Committee problem which my noble friend identified about costs and its incisive conclusions and pay tribute to its work. in defamation actions would, and I quote narrowly I also thank the Libel Reform Campaign for its help, here, have to, and of course the noble Lord, Lord Lester of Herne “be dealt with fully in that Defamation Bill”.—[Official Report, Hill, for his extraordinary campaigning work over 27/3/12; col. 1332.] many years to reform our libel laws. I am in awe of the Now, that is not dealt with in this Bill but now the very hard work and thought that has gone into the noble Lord gives another set of assurances that we drafting of this Defamation Bill. have to accept as to how it will be dealt with. We are The Bill centres, quite rightly, on the careful balance concerned about access to justice under the Bill and that has to be drawn between the right of an individual would like to see the issue of costs addressed in it. The to a reputation and the preservation of free speech Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders and expression. Britain’s record of free speech has Act 2012 has abolished the recoverability of success been one of the great sources of inspiration to the fees and after-the-event insurance premiums. Claimants world since the Glorious Revolution in the late in defamation actions will no longer be able to insure 17th century stopped the censorship of newspapers themselves against costs—and even if they are successful, and pamphlets in this country. I have just made a they may have to pay some of their damages in lawyers’ history documentary that attempts to find out why the fees. There are a number of possible ways to address Industrial Revolution took place in Britain rather defamation costs, one of which the noble Lord, Lord than in other scientifically advanced European countries. McNally, explained to us, but we intend to explore all One of the programme’s conclusions was that 18th of them in Committee in the hope that we can find century Britain boasted a liberty of speech and intellectual something that will allow the noble Lord to make discourse that allowed the free exchange of ideas good on his commitment to my noble friend Lord between scientists, technicians and industrialists. The Prescott. industrial enlightenment, as it is called, allowed the We would like a provision for striking out claims creation of inventions and industrial progress that included in the Bill and hope to discuss in Committee transformed this country into one of the most powerful the possibility of including a provision to that effect in and prosperous in the world, and much of its success Clause 1. We intend to table again the suggestion from rested on the power of free speech. the committee that corporations should be able to This freedom has been counterbalanced in statute instigate proceedings but that the threshold should be since the passing of the first civil libel laws in 1843, higher for them: that is, where the corporation can and they have developed through subsequent Acts and prove substantial financial loss. We are concerned that changes in common law to protect the reputation of the continued inequality of arms between parties will the individual. However, I fear that in recent years continue to limit access to justice for many less wealthy those very libel laws and the threat of their use against claimants. a wide range of authors from journalists to scientists In my short experience of your Lordships’ House, it and NGOs is having an increasingly oppressive effect is not uncommon for speeches here to be peppered on free speech. Our present libel laws seem to have with comments that legislation has left the House of tipped the balance too far in favour of the claimant. Commons incomplete and barely scrutinised, leaving I have worked as a journalist on regional newspapers much work for this House to do. What is less common and for our major television networks for most of my is that a Bill is sent on its way from the House of career. I have first-hand experience of the threat of Commons with almost every speaker there saying that libel action limiting my ability to publish all the the degree of scrutiny and revision necessary will have information that I had gathered in the course of an to be carried out by this House because it has not been investigation, but my experiences are limited and on a carried out by their House. However, that is exactly small scale. In the course of preparing for this speech, what was said repeatedly by Members of all parties, I have spoken to journalists and media lawyers in including Ministers, when the Bill was read for a third some of our most respected broadcast and newspaper time in the House of Commons on 12 September. companies. They have told me of many instances 943 Defamation Bill[LORDS] Defamation Bill 944

[VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS] create statutory defences for truth and honest opinion, when, during the course of investigations into powerful which will help to protect free speech. Clause 6 is a individuals or companies, they have been confronted tremendous step forward in protecting scientists and by an ever-increasing torrent of letters and threats NGOs who want to express their concerns without from libel lawyers, often multiple firms of libel lawyers. fear of litigation. It is long overdue and I know is very At a time when there have been revelations of much welcomed by those communities. misconduct—and in some cases criminal misconduct—by However, there are one or two areas of the Bill that journalists, one or two media organisations have been cause me a little concern, and I hope that they will be singled out for being well regulated and responsible. tested during the passage of this Bill through your One of those is the organisation for which I work, the Lordships’ House. Clause 4 gives a welcome defence BBC. It is at the forefront of responsible investigative of responsible publication on matters of public interest reporting. Indeed, the work of “Panorama”has brought against libel. Subsection (2)(a) to (i) contains the list us important and revealing programmes that hold to of 10 factors that can be used in the defence of account powerful commercial and religious organisations responsible journalism. The Explanatory Notes say and even a Member of your Lordships’ House. This that these are, exercise of free speech seems to be a crucial pillar of “a non-exhaustive list of matters to which the court may have our democracy. regard in determining whether a defendant acted responsibly in However, even at the BBC the chilling effect of our publishing a statement”. present libel laws is being felt. The corporation’s head However, in the light of the way in which libel lawyers of current affairs, Clive Edwards, a long-term colleague are using the present 10 factors of the Reynolds defence of mine, said in a recent speech: “In my 25 years as 10 hurdles for journalists to cross, I am not sure that working in investigative journalism I have to say the their codification will improve the situation. current climate is the worst I can remember and it’s getting to the point where I have serious concerns I would also ask whether this clause accounts for about the future of investigative reporting”. This is the the changes in the common law that have taken place man who is ultimately responsible for “Panorama” as a result of the Supreme Court decision in the case and other investigative programmes. of Flood v Times Newspapers Ltd. This now allows for the reasonable belief of the editor or publisher to What is ironic is that one of the defences for responsible be taken into account as part of the defence. This journalism built up by the common law is now being clause as it stands seems to be a step backwards. I ask used as a stick with which to beat journalists in an the Minister if he can think of a different way of attempt to prevent publication: the so-called Reynolds wording this clause that would both bring it up to date defence. This defence lays down 10 non-exhaustive with the Flood judgment and deal with the problems factors, the use of some but not all of which should be of the 10 factors in the Reynolds defence. enough to protect fair and responsible journalism, even if the absolute truth of the statement cannot be Clause 5 is of utmost importance in that it recognises proved. At the moment, however, prior to publication the overwhelming importance of the internet as an or broadcast, lawyers representing companies and arena for free speech in the 21st century. If this Bill is individuals under investigation are increasingly demanding to be future-proofed, it needs to get this clause right. that journalists, scientists and NGOs should abide by Social media such as Facebook, Twitter and blogs are all 10 factors in order to prove that they have acted an ever more powerful method of disseminating fairly and responsibly. information. Many of the operators and much of the comment take place outside our jurisdiction. Nevertheless, During the course of one recent “Panorama” we must try to achieve a balance for claimants, website investigation of a controversial organisation, the operators and authors based in this country. programme makers received upwards of 1,000 pages of legal letters, at a going rate of £400 a page, to try to Clause 5 goes a long way towards creating this influence the content and prevent the programme’s balance between a defence for website operators against transmission. Every letter required a response by the allegations of defamation while also giving claimants BBC lawyer that had to be checked by the programme redress for defamation. However, I ask the Minister to makers and executives. The present libel laws are costing be aware that the clause could be used by people who respectable media organisations a fortune in their own want to unmask the identity of an anonymous individual, lawyers’ fees and are exhausting journalistic talent in maybe a whistleblower or someone like that, by using refuting these claims. This must be having a detrimental a spurious defamation claim to force a website operator effect on the number of investigations that can be to do so. There needs to be some burden of proof undertaken. It cannot be right that the rich and powerful when making the claim that a remark is defamatory are using our libel laws to attempt to suppress reporting before it should be removed. and are using their lawyers to act like back-street I also welcome Clause 9 on jurisdiction, which goes bullies to suppress investigation. a long way to diminishing the threat of libel tourism in This Bill goes a long way towards improving the the London courts. Although there have been only a situation and redressing the balance towards the protection limited number of actual cases from abroad in the of free speech. Clause 1, on serious harm, requires a English courts, these laws have certainly been used as a claimant for the first time to prove that there has been chilling effect on free speech internationally. As this serious damage to their reputation or financial situation. clause is drafted, it will not help British defendants I am sure that this obstacle will stop trivial and who are being sued by overseas claimants living outside vexatious cases coming to court. Clauses 2 and 3 the EU, and that is a source of concern for me. 945 Defamation Bill[9 OCTOBER 2012] Defamation Bill 946

On Clause 12, I am anxious that the demand for a the Bill through. We are dealing with one very important summary statement of the judgment will duplicate the threat to freedom of expression, but we should not fall jobs of regulatory bodies such as the PCC, the BBC into the mistake of believing that it is the only one. Trust and Ofcom, and I am sure that this issue will also be considered in whatever forum Lord Justice He and I have discussed Clause 1. The Government Leveson comes up with for considering complaints started on “substantial” and finished on “serious”. We against the media. To allow a judge to force a paper or decided that “serious and substantial” was even better. a broadcast to put up an apology on the front page or I noticed that the Government’s response to the Joint at the top of the television news seems to me to put the Committee report was that two words, “serious” and judge in the editor’s seat. I ask the Minister whether “substantial”, might make for confusion. May I tell that is in the interests of free speech and responsible my noble friend that “serious and substantial” was the journalism in this country. testimony to our committee of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern? He may not be This Bill goes a very long way in addressing the good enough for the Government, but he was certainly concerns that many of us have for guarding free persuasive enough for the Joint Committee. I encourage speech in this country. Any changes that I have suggested my noble friend to put “serious and substantial” back must not become a charter for irresponsible journalism in to the melting pot. All of us agree that the bar needs or comment. There have been some wonderful and to be raised, and that trivial issues and threats need to important debates on the Bill in the other place, but I be disposed of quickly. am sure that its passage through your Lordships’ House will bring about the crucial amendments that I turn to Clause 4 and the so-called Reynolds will ensure that it becomes the once-in-a-lifetime chance defence. I am not sure that the noble Viscount, Lord to rebalance the freedom of speech and the reputation Colville of Culross, read all the evidence to our committee. of the individual in an era of extraordinary change If he did, he accurately reflected it in his speech. A lot and upheaval in our media. of people said to us that they were not sure about these 10 different tick boxes that constitute Reynolds. We know that they do not all have to be ticked, but 3.57 pm there is confusion out there. Increasingly the legal Lord Mawhinney: My Lords, I, too, welcome the world and aggressive lawyers are moving to try to Bill. The Minister will recall conversations that he and make all 10 a prerequisite. I hope that the Minister will I had about whether the Government were genuinely think carefully about what the noble Viscount said. serious in wanting to legislate. We had been brought to There are still tick boxes in Clause 4. From talking to the starting point on a number of occasions over past the noble Lord, Lord Lester of Herne Hill, to whom decades but had never actually managed to get the this House is indebted for his work in this area, I know race under way. I pay tribute to him, and I want it to that there are other more general ways of writing be a matter of record that I personally believe that Clause 4 that would totally remove any confusion without the intervention and leadership of the noble from a tick-box-type regime. I hope that the Minister Lord, Lord McNally, this Bill almost certainly would will look at that again before we complete the Bill in not have emerged from the depths of government. I this House. hope that he will accept that compliment; there may not be a regular flow of them through the whole Clause 7, and with it Clause 6, seem to me big process, but at least I start as I would like to be able to improvements on where we are at the moment. I say to continue. my noble friend that it was the committee that came up with the idea of using peer-review of scientific and I thank my colleagues from your Lordships’ House medical documents and theses as a way of getting that who were on the Joint Committee. I am slightly nervous qualified privilege. I pay particular tribute to the noble because four of the other five are due to speak in this Lord, Lord Bew, who led that conversation in the debate after me. Nevertheless, I record my appreciation committee. I can tell the Minister that we were more to them for their support, intellectual rigour and common nervous that qualified privilege might or might not be sense. applicable to conferences. I do not think that because qualified privilege should be available to peer-reviewed I was pleased that the Minister started by affirming articles that conferences automatically get lumped in the Government’s commitment to freedom of expression. to the same category.They require separate consideration. That is hugely important and it is put under pressure So I welcome Clause 7 and its associated Clause 6. in a whole variety of ways, not just in defamation but every day. I listened carefully to what the noble Lord, I want to turn to a couple of the issues that were Lord Browne of Ladyton, said; he talked about the part of the consultation aspect of the draft Bill and to Bill being seen in a broader context. I am not sure if he pick up in particular one that the Minister himself used the word “context”, because it was the word picked up, which was the issue of cost. I am not sure “broader” that caught my attention. I have had the that I have the fluency to relay to your Lordships in privilege of being in this Building, at both ends permissible language the strength of feeling around of the Corridor, for 33 years now. One of the most cost as a barrier to people getting their legal rights. significant changes in that period has been the inhibition That is very tricky because it is quite difficult to write of freedom of expression through creeping political legislation about costs, so the temptation—I think the correctness. It is not necessarily defamation per se, but Minister may have skirted around the temptation in it is an insidious threat to freedom of expression and I his earlier comments—is to say, “We’ll think about it. encourage the Minister to remember that as we take We’ll devise ways and it’ll all be all right on the night”. 947 Defamation Bill[LORDS] Defamation Bill 948

[LORD MAWHINNEY] page 15?”. It is a spurious, nonsensical argument. All Given how long we have waited for legislation on this you need to do is say, “It has to be done in 72 hours”, area, I know he will understand that cost needs urgently or 96 hours, or whatever it is. to be addressed now. We made a number of We need out of this Bill a system that is more recommendations. We think that in a defamation case, geared to ordinary citizens and not to the exclusive the speed of consideration of the preliminary issues by ones. For the first time in my life, I am going to a judge is crucial. We were told that a lot of time and associate myself with a Labour Party slogan; we need money is spent because neither side knows what individual a defamation system that is for the many and not just words mean or how the judge will interpret them. Bills geared to the convenience of the few. There was a get racked up into astronomical sums when a meeting healthy discussion in the committee about the merits with the judge in the first week or two could take that of statute law and common law. The judiciary likes cost barrier completely out of the system. common law because it makes the system more flexible; but ordinary people do not understand common law, I understand that my noble friend and his colleagues whereas they can go and look up statute law. So, to the get very nervous when the case management of judicial extent that this Bill will codify, it is in the interests of cases gets mentioned by anybody who is not a fully ordinary citizens because it makes the law more qualified judge, solicitor, barrister or, preferably, all understandable. three, but the rest of us have permission to express opinions, even if we are not in the judicial system, and The committee dealt with the question of trial by I want to express an opinion. I know that government jury. There are very few jury trials now, but we were Ministers have the ability, in however these things are not persuaded that they should be done away with; done, to let it be known to those in the judicial system therefore I welcome Clause 11. I need to say to my who have responsibility for case management that noble friend, not least out of courtesy to those who government would be pleased if this were to happen or served with me on the committee, that while I have would be encouraged if that were to happen. This is an appreciated various clauses in this Bill, we all reserve area that needs to be grabbed by Ministers. Of course, the right to raise Joint Committee proposals, which you are raising questions about the judgment of the the Government, without the opportunity of discussing judiciary. In one sense, I am not. I want it to be them with us, have thus far rejected. independent and to do its thing totally free of political I will finish on one other big issue, which, if my interference, but I want it to do it in a way that is good reading of the Bill is correct, has not actually been for my former constituents. I want it to be friendly for dealt with. What happens on the internet moves very the claimant. Running systems that do not challenge quickly, and the committee was persuaded that holding existing procedures but hold up the process, thus the providers to account was not the way to go forward. driving up the cost, is not good for my former constituents. We welcome that decision by the Government. That There is a serious cost bar issue that needs to be having been said, what is on the internet falls into two tackled head on by judges making early decisions and categories: that which is by an identifiable person and somebody writing into the Civil Procedure Rules that which is truly anonymous. The committee’s view government-inspired guidance and perhaps duties in was that if it is identifiable, the laws of the land as they the area of case management that would bring defamation apply should apply to the internet as well as to every law back into the purview of the ordinary citizen of other aspect. The issue of the anonymous is much this country. more difficult, and is made more so by the fact that the internet is worldwide and we have to be careful. I can The second thing that the Joint Committee felt very see nothing in this Bill that even touches on what you strongly about was the need to put in requirements for do about anonymous defamation. We in the committee judges initially to direct towards mediation and arbitration were not certain, and we were very tentative, but I will before a case goes to court. I have read government tell the Minister what I would like. I would like a documents truthfully saying that the Government want differentiation, a cultural change in this country, so to encourage out-of-court settlements, that going to that over the passage of time, if you do not put your court is the last thing they want and so forth. This is name to it, it cannot be taken seriously. If you do not an opportunity to do something about it. The committee put your name to it, it cannot have any legal standing. felt very strongly indeed. I have sided with the noble That cultural change will not happen overnight. It Viscount, Lord Colville of Culross, but I now have to may be a five-year or a 10-year process. However, disagree with him. The committee’s evidence was that unless somebody comes up with a better way of offering a system of mediation and arbitration that led somebody some element of defamation protection to those on to say sorry was perhaps one of the most effective the internet who prefer to behave anonymously, let us ways of dealing with defamation available to us, yet try to create a situation in which over time nobody the system is not set up to encourage people to get takes it seriously and therefore nobody pays any attention together and say sorry. I wish I had a piece of paper of to it. That is at least a form of protection. I am always the realm for every one of my constituents who has happy to step down if the Minister comes up with a come to a surgery and said, “I don’t want any money. I better solution, though I do not see it in the Bill. just want them to say sorry”. The committee believed that there are times when the judge should have the I welcome the Bill and congratulate the Minister on power to require an apology to be printed, occasionally it. My sense is that it is not party political. I wish him on the front page of a newspaper, depending on the well in getting it through the House speedily and on its seriousness of the case. I know the editor’s argument, way as its implementation is necessary to improve our “If the Queen dies that day, is she supposed to go to defamation procedures. 949 Defamation Bill[9 OCTOBER 2012] Defamation Bill 950

4.15 pm non-starter. We will have arrived back at a situation whereby only the rich, such as I, can afford to take on Lord Sugar: My Lords, I have concerns that the the media while others have to be beaten up and can changes being made to the defamation laws are too do nothing about it. lenient, to the advantage of the printed media—the national press. I ask your Lordships to consider another commercial aspect of the media printing untrue stories. If a newspaper I have listened very carefully to the noble Viscount, decides deliberately to print a pack of lies on its front Lord Colville, who rightly stated that we should not page to attract more readers at the point of sale, that is suppress freedom of speech and that responsible media a much cheaper way of boosting a paper’s circulation owners are being attacked by frivolous and derisory than engaging in an expensive television advertising claims. However, I am afraid to say that laws that are campaign. Why is it much cheaper? Because the media drafted and crafted with responsible members of the can immediately agree in communication that what media such as the BBC in mind are abused by the they wrote was wrong and addend it with, say, a Part biggest culprits that cause the problems in the marketplace. 36 offer of £50,000, thus throwing the gauntlet down I speak as a past claimant who has taken the media to to the claimant as to whether they wish to risk going court on numerous occasions. I will not go into the to court—a very cheap way of dealing with things details at the moment but being a details person I with little or no apology required. Apologies in any became deeply involved in the legal procedures and case, as your Lordships know, are usually postage- feel that I am somewhat of an expert, albeit I am not a stamp-sized and not on the same page as the offending lawyer, on the laws of defamation, of which I now article. In most cases they are buried towards the have a good understanding, and, more to the point, on middle of the newspaper without so much as a picture the tricks of the trade played by the media in interpreting of the offended claimant. This matter has to be addressed and using the law for their benefit. and the noble Lord, Lord Mawhinney, was quite right At this juncture it is useful to remind your Lordships to raise it here. I think newspapers must be forced by that there is one thing, and one thing alone, that is of the courts to print a retraction or apology on the same prime importance to the media, and that is money and page as the offending item appeared and with the how much their pockets will be affected. The days of same prominence. This, together with higher damages, the Elton John million-pound awards have long gone. will make them wake up and act far more responsibly. Nowadays, judges advise juries on libel damages by On the technical front, whereas in the past the making comparison with damages receivable for, say, claim of fair comment in an article had to be supported a broken ankle, a broken leg or the loss of sight in one by facts within that article, I am advised that this has eye. I say that this is flawed. Those comparable damages changed or that there is a proposal for changes to that are most probably the result of an accident whereas effect to be embodied in the Bill, so that the facts there is no accident involved in printing lies. We now supporting allegations made in an article do not have see the top end of damages people receive for libel to appear in the article itself but just have to be facts being in the region of £100,000 to £150,000. I understand that existed at the time the article was written. The the current proposal is that damages for personal writer does not even have to show that the readers of injuries actions, and therefore libel damages, are to be the article in question would have had to know those increased by approximately 10%. I will explain why facts. As a possibly stupid but extreme example, a that is still inadequate. journalist might write an article saying that in his Most people, particularly some minor celebrities or, opinion a particular person was a thief and a thoroughly more to the point, politicians, cannot afford to fund a untrustworthy individual without referring to any facts fully fledged defamation case. Up until recently it has to support that in the article. If challenged in court, he been possible for lawyers to take on those cases completely might say that the person he wrote about—say, a free of charge to the claimant. If they succeed, the middle-aged man—once stole a Mars bar from a sweet lawyer is entitled to charge the claimant up to double shop when he was seven. The statement does not have his normal fee, and the claimant would then be able to to be a reasonable one or even one a reasonable man claim this double fee from the defendant, together could have held; it just has to be that person’s honestly with the cost of procuring an insurance policy to cover held opinion, however bigoted. the case in the event that the claimant lost. I am further advised that the defence of responsible I am advised this is all being discarded and will no journalism, also known as the Reynolds defence, is longer be possible. Instead, from approximately 2013 now being modified. These days when a journalist we will have a situation whereby lawyers will be able to phones me up with an allegation of something or take on cases on a contingency basis. We have to look other, I say, “Sorry, old chap, but you are wrong and I at the ramifications of this. Why would a lawyer, with am not prepared to comment. I do not see why I all due respect to lawyers, take on a case on a contingency should become your editor for an article which you basis when the ultimate goal for the claimant may be wish to produce”. Why should the onus be on the in the region of £150,000? The lawyer’s share of that claimant to go into detail as to why an article should would not make up for the fact that the lawyer, when not be published or why the article is inaccurate, doing the case on a contingency basis, is risking not presenting all the facts to the journalist in order to be being paid at all if their client loses. And from the able to rely on that statement at a later stage, should claimant’s perspective, any damages they receive would the matter ever go to court? However, as I understand be eaten up by the contingency fee and the shortfall in it, if I do not do that I am at risk of the journalist cost between the actual costs and those costs that they subsequently relying on the responsible-journalism defence are awarded from the defendant. I believe that this is a by saying, “I did seek his comments but he didn’t tell 951 Defamation Bill[LORDS] Defamation Bill 952

[LORD SUGAR] piecemeal basis. That is not their function. The legal me why what I was writing about him was wrong”. principles need to be prescribed by Parliament and I do not think that that is fair. My method is very fair. guide the courts to interpret and apply the law. I should be able to say, “I’m not your editor; I have English common law suffers from uncertainty and told you that what you’re about to print is wrong, and encroaches too broadly on free expression. It has it is at your risk that you go ahead and publish it. In failed to adapt to the changing world of communication the mean time, I will reserve my rights”. That is how it by means of the internet and the world wide web. The should be; after all, I did not ask him to write anything litigation common law engenders is costly and often about me. protracted. It has a severe chilling effect, as many I conclude, however, on a more upbeat matter. It is noble Lords have said, on free speech—not only of not all doom and gloom. I applaud the fact that many powerful newspapers and broadcasters but of regional cases may now be heard without a jury. I support that newspapers, NGOs and individual public critics. That completely because in the past, I am afraid to say, chilling effect breeds self-censorship and impairs the claimants who are not used to being in a witness box communication of public information about matters have been badgered by smart lawyers and made to of legitimate public interest and concern that are vital look either stupid or like liars. Another important in a modern democracy.Under the previous Government, aspect is that jurors often cannot follow the finer legal Parliament recently abolished several common law points being raised by both parties and can sometimes speech crimes inherited from the Court of Star Chamber, come to their verdicts based upon their opinions of including criminal libel and judicious, blasphemous the individual who is bringing the action—in other and obscene libel. I say in the presence of the Minister words, their personal thoughts on whether they like that I hope that we will soon, as the Law Commission the claimant as a person or what they stand for in suggests, abolish the archaic common law crime of public life. That clearly is not fair and I welcome the scandalising the court—a crime used to punish journalists fact that a judge who can see through the badgering of elsewhere across the common law. a witness will ultimately decide the verdict on the facts However, the fear of damages and massive legal and the law. I ask the Minister to take into consideration costs induced by civil libel law is markedly more the points that I have raised inhibiting than the fear of criminal prosecution. It is the NGO, the whistleblower, the citizen critic or the 4.26 pm website host who tends to take the line of least resistance by censoring information and opinions which the public Lord Lester of Herne Hill: My Lords, unlike the need to know in order to avoid the costly and uncertain noble Lord, Lord Sugar, I warmly welcome this much- litigation that benefits many of my friends and fellow needed Bill. Its central aim is to reform English defamation practitioners at the English Bar. law to strike a fair balance between the fundamental right to freedom of expression, public information I will say something briefly about the Leveson and the protection of a good reputation. As the noble inquiry. I welcome the fact that the Government have Lords, Lord McNally and Lord Browne of Ladyton, not been blown off course by the Leveson inquiry. have said, the Bill is needed to give better protection to Lord Justice Leveson’s report may have implications free expression, while ensuring fairness and responsibility especially for Clause 4 on the defence of responsible in journalism, the necessary protection of the right to publication and on whether the successor to the Press a good reputation, and access to justice by the weak Complaints Commission should be recognised without against the rich and powerful. It is not and must not being regulated by the Bill to enhance public confidence be an unbalanced charter for the media. It has to about its independence and effectiveness. My right protect the journalists, scientists, doctors and activists honourable friend Simon Hughes MP expressed concern caught up in recent cases. in the other place that, if Lord Justice Leveson does not produce recommendations until December, it may I very much welcomed what the noble Lord, Lord be necessary to come up with further legislation. That Browne, had to say. I express my admiration of Scots would be regrettable. I would hope that it might be law, which he was too modest to mention. My experience possible for Ministers to suggest to Lord Justice Leveson has been that in this area Scots law and practice has that he make an interim report soon with his been more progressive than it has been south of the recommendations for better regulation of the independent border. I will always remember Lord Keith of Kinkel press so that we may take it into account during the in a case that I argued in front of him. He was a breath passage of the Bill in this House. I know that the noble of fresh air in the House of Lords in giving leadership Lord, Lord Hunt of the Wirral, hopes this too. He is in that case. That ought to be recorded. unfortunately unable to take part in this debate but he has authorised me to say this. The Bill has been prepared in light of the report by the well informed Joint Committee on the Government’s In scrutinising and improving the Bill, the first aim draft Bill, ably chaired by the noble Lord, Lord should be to strike a fair balance between private Mawhinney, the public consultation, and the views of reputation and public information as protected by the civil society and the media. The unsatisfactory state of common law and the constitutional right to free English defamation law is notorious and well recognised expression. The second aim is to simplify and clarify here and abroad. It is mainly based on the common the law to assist the claimant whose reputation has law and has had very limited scrutiny by Parliament been significantly and unjustifiably damaged. The third for more than a century. Its subject matter is too is to require claimants to demonstrate that they have important to be left to the courts to reform on a suffered or are likely to suffer real harm as a result of 953 Defamation Bill[9 OCTOBER 2012] Defamation Bill 954 the defamatory publication of which they complain. mistakes and ongoing publication, and which respects The fourth is to modernise the defences to defamation editorial discretion. We need what the Guardian editorial proceedings, in accordance with the overwhelming describes today as: requirements of the public interest so that free expression “A robust public interest defence that offers some security is not chilled by self-censorship and coercive litigation. where matters under debate are of public concern and are the The fifth is to discourage so-called libel tourism. The subject of honest opinion”. sixth is to encourage the speedy resolution of disputes, As the noble Lord, Lord Mawhinney, and the noble including the use of mediation and alternative dispute Viscount, Lord Colville, have said, the trouble with resolution as well as wise, firm and early case management listing factors is that they become a check-list that may by the courts. The seventh is to make trial by judge be underinclusive or overinclusive and they lack legal alone the normal mode of trial, rather than trial by certainty. In my view—and, more importantly, in the judge and jury. To my surprise, I discovered that the view of the leading experts on defamation law, Sir media much prefer the reasoned judgment of a judge Brian Neill and Heather Rogers QC, to whom I express to the uncertain and occasionally arbitrary trial by admiration and gratitude—it is far better to articulate jury. The final aim is to modernise and extend statutory the general principles of this key public interest defence privilege. I hope that we will manage to get rid of what without setting out a list of factors, leaving it to the is known as the “Neil Hamilton defence” in Section 13 courts to interpret and apply the principles on a case- of the 1996 Act by-case basis. The Bill does not deal with changes in the civil I suggest—it is only to get the civil servants thinking procedure and costs rules, which are as important as that I mention it at this stage—that Clause 4 might be the Bill itself. As the noble Lords, Lord Browne and replaced by a provision on the following lines. This Lord Mawhinney, have emphasised, it is important to does not come from me; Sir Brian Neill suggested it. know how the Government intend to enhance access First, it might say that it is a defence in an action for to justice and to create a level playing field between the defamation (a) for the defendant to show that the strong and the weak. It is also important for the Civil statement complained of was on, or formed part of a Justice Council, chaired by the Master of the Rolls publication on, a matter of public interest, and (b) if Lord Dyson, to begin its work urgently on the new the defendant honestly and reasonably believed at the procedures during the passage of the Bill. I very much time of publication that the making of the statement hope that it might be possible to do that before the Bill was in the public interest. leaves this House—at least in some draft form. Secondly, in the case of publication for the purposes of journalism, the court shall, in determining whether I turn briefly to one or two aspects of the Bill that the requirements of (a) and (b) are satisfied, give a have been mentioned and need to be explored in wide discretion to the editor or other person responsible Committee. I shall concentrate mainly on Clause 4—the for the publication as to the content of the statement, defence of responsible publication—which, as currently the form in which the statement was made and the drafted, is regressive. My right honourable friend Simon timing of the publication. That really comes from Hughes MP noted that the Reynolds defence does not Lord Dyson in Flood. work and that we need to move from the common law position. As counsel in Reynolds, I enthusiastically Thirdly, for the avoidance of doubt, the defence agree. I was unsuccessful in persuading the Law Lords under this section may be relied upon irrespective of to adopt a workable public interest defence for responsible whether the statement complained of is a statement of publication. Instead, they adopted a list of factors fact or a statement of opinion. Fourthly, a defence which have made the defence virtually unworkable. In under this section shall not succeed—I repeat: shall my Bill, we attempted to produce a shorter list of not succeed—if the claimant shows that he asked the factors, and the Government have made a similar defendant for the publication of a correction of the attempt in Clause 4. However, the clause has been statement complained of and that the request was widely, and rightly, criticised by the Official Opposition unreasonably refused or granted subject to unreasonable and Simon Hughes in the other place and by the Libel conditions. In my view, that encapsulates what should Reform Campaign. be the defence without the need for a check-list of exhaustive or non-exhaustive factors. Clause 4 rightly abolishes the common law Reynolds On a different point, Clause 5 deals with the liability defence but it does so without adequately reflecting of website operators for material posted by third the importance of editorial discretion, as emphasised parties. The detail of the new rules has wisely been left by Lord Dyson and by the Supreme Court in Flood. to be dealt with by regulations, as we have heard. That That increases the likelihood that judges will revert to is sensible, given the complexity and changing nature treating the list of relevant factors as a check-list and of the issues involved. However, like, the noble Lord, be tempted to put themselves in the position of editor Lord Browne, I suggest that the draft regulations when determining whether or not publication was should be published when we consider Clause 5 in this responsible, rather than respecting a range of permissible House. As he has indicated, regulations should be editorial judgments. subject to the affirmative resolution procedure because Various proposals have been put forward—I shall of their importance in this country and internationally. not bore the House by going into them at this stage—but Perhaps I may say a word about Clause 9 that the I suggest that what is needed is a clause that sets out Media Lawyers Association drew to my attention and the principles of protecting honest and reasonable which no one has mentioned so far. Clause 9 deals publication in the public interest, which deals with with proceedings against a person who is not domiciled 955 Defamation Bill[LORDS] Defamation Bill 956

[LORD LESTER OF HERNE HILL] It has been widely said, and it is expected, that your in the UK or in a member state of the EU or of the Lordships’ House will insert a public interest defence Lugano convention. I am not sure why it deals only into the Bill to distinguish between different types of with that and not with proceedings brought “by a communication, with the aim of protecting those in person”. Clause 9 should deal with both “by” and the public interest from accusations of defamation—at “against”, unless there is some good reason to the least up to a point. For example, communicating contrary. scientific findings needs protection precisely because The Bill provides a once-in-a-generation opportunity some may think that this is very unwelcome and may to reform this area of the law. We are being watched harm certain reputations, including, of course, commercial attentively across the common law world where English reputations. I believe that Karl Popper’s famous claims law has had a bad influence, to the point where the in The Open Society and Its Enemies are still a landmark United States Congress and President Obama legislated in liberal society because of his insistence that science to prevent English libel judgments from being enforced and the public understanding of it proceeds by conjecture there. American media lawyers have told me that they and refutation. Science is not a matter of discovering wish that they could do in the United States the kind and then asserting what is true, but a systematic practice of reforms that we are contemplating here. In the of identifying claims that might be true, testing them words of today’s Guardian editorial: against evidence, seeking new evidence if necessary, “The better free expression is protected here, the better the and discarding claims that fail the test of evidence. UK can argue internationally against oppression and persecution”. Scientifically impressive claims are those that survive energetic attempts at refutation, so we must allow the statement of scientific claims that might turn out to be 4.41 pm false in order to test them. Baroness O’Neill of Bengarve: My Lords, it is a Unless we allow the publication and promulgation great honour to speak after the noble Lord, Lord of claims that may be false, science cannot proceed Lester of Herne Hill. We all owe him a great debt for and communicating science to wider audiences will be his persistence, his focus and his depth of knowledge severely harmed. However, I do not think this means on these topics. I shall be briefer but I have two that anything goes. While the legislation provides for interests to declare. First, I am a trustee of Sense protecting peer-reviewed scientific publication, which about Science, which has worked to improve the ways is very important, it does not yet offer ways to protect in which scientists and science writers communicate science journalism, other science writing and other with the public and to reduce the risk thereby of them journalism that seeks to investigate matters of academic being taken to court for defamation if they are challenged substance, from the risk of silencing by corporate or by received views or very often by commercial interests. other interests. Given the costs—of which we have My second interest is perhaps proleptic: I have been heard a certain amount—to those sued for defamation, nominated, but not yet confirmed, to chair the Equality such silencing is likely to be mainly invisible: a matter and Human Rights Commission. of subtle deterrence that prevents the public knowing Defamation raises extraordinarily complex issues what is not published. and the Bill not only has to deal with the deficiencies Of course, we cannot demand that science writing, of current legislation, on which there is a considerable science journalism or other journalism on matters of measure of agreement—its costs, its delays, its uncertainties fact should undergo peer-review processes. Peer review and its clarities—but it has to do so, as many noble has different aims and is too slow and too costly, Lords have noted, in the context of huge transformations although I accept that the reality is that much of this in communications technologies, about which I shall writing and journalism is done by practising scientists say nothing in detail. However, these changes are and reflects a culture that takes those standards seriously. central to many other pieces of legislation that we However, we can say something about some of the have considered and shall be considering. We need to more elementary standards which science writing and take a consistent view across different pieces of legislation. other serious writing should meet if it is to be protected For example, I have in mind legislation that bears on by any public interest defence. Even if we cannot copyright in the digital age and on the need to reformat immediately set out sufficient conditions for publication material—for example, for archiving, preservation or to count as a matter of public interest, we can set out republication—but not on material that is deemed some necessary conditions for it to do so. thereby to have breached copyright or to have published A few years ago, as all of us remember with some a new work. nostalgia—or perhaps not—we were fairly good at We need to take account of that in debates about distinguishing between gossip and publication. Publication the draft regulations for data protection, which, if could be regulated to prevent defamation if one knew implemented, will lead to a uniform approach to data who the publisher was. Defamatory gossip often did protection across the EU. We need to bear that in not travel far and was dealt with by local social mind in all legislation that bears, or purports to bear, sanctions. Gossips acquired a bad reputation and on forms of transparency and openness and on the malicious gossips acquired a poisonous reputation. protection not only of rights of reputation but of Malicious gossip traditionally became a matter for rights of privacy. I believe that this is a central piece in legal action only in unusual cases. Today that boundary a jigsaw of legislation that has come before us, and will is eroded. As the noble Lord, Lord Mawhinney, said, come before us, which makes it all the more complex we encounter anonymised publication on a global and important to get it right and to test it in a full scale and with global reach. These waters can be range of ways. dangerous. Anonymised communication may cloak 957 Defamation Bill[9 OCTOBER 2012] Defamation Bill 958 poison pens, those bent on revenge, those with undeclared even if it does not set the Thames on fire. As my noble financial interests and, of course, good old malicious friend Lord Browne of Ladyton reminded us, good gossip. Anonymity with global reach is available and work was commenced under Mr Jack Straw and continued makes defamatory communication much easier. A by this Government. There have been important problem that we must address in passing this legislation contributions from many bodies. Above all else, I pay is first to distinguish between communication that is in tribute to the energy and scholarly pursuit of the the public interest—and so should receive protection— subject by the noble Lord, Lord Lester, without whose from quasi-communication that should not. work we might not be debating this issue today at all. Let me explain quasi-communication. Part of the We have all benefited by the publication of a draft Bill remedy here is quite simple; any speech or writing that and the subsequent consultation. In the committee, we is in the public interest should at least meet minimal valued the heavy lifting done by the noble Lord, Lord standards to count as communication and not the McNally. Contrary to the surprise expressed in the lower standards required for mere dissemination or Commons, Governments of different hues do pursue disclosure of content, whose origins, assumptions and Bills whose groundwork has been done and prepared authors can remain hidden and immune from questions by previous Administrations. about their methods and assumptions, their claims On this occasion, Parliament took the wise course and their evasions. The public interest is indeed an of setting up a pre-legislative committee, from both interest in openness but not an interest in mere disclosure. Houses, on which I served. The substantial unanimity That, so to speak, is the unintelligent form of openness. on the need for reform that already prevailed was The intelligent form of openness meets more than consolidated by the unanimous report of the committee those minimal standards; it opens matters to check under the wise chairmanship of the noble Lord, Lord and challenge by members of the public. Mawhinney. The noble Lord and the committee were The communication, as I see it, that deserves protection able to deliver on time. The committee was fortunate is forthright and challengeable. It is designed to be in his leadership. It had a formidable task. None of us, accessible to others, is intelligible to them and provides I believe, was a leading expert in this rarefied field of adequate information for readers, listeners or viewers law. My only experience, as a lifelong criminal practitioner, to assess the evidence and assumptions on which it was advising on one case of defamation alone in my was based and, if they choose, to respond. I do not see whole career. Perhaps this was a good thing. But a case for protecting quasi-communication that does throwing a discrete subject like this into the laps of not meet the adequate standards for the openness to parliamentary colleagues— however distinguished—was check and challenge, except in a limited number of a heavy burden to tackle. There is a general belief in cases, which I will come to. favour of pre-legislative scrutiny but it comes at a A great deal of content that floats around the price. We sat for 18 sessions from April to October, internet may be accessible. Some of it of course is very and each session entailed considerable preparation. It hard to find. Much of it is intelligible, at least to some, may be an indication of how much time was saved to and often to many, audiences. However, anonymised Parliament that the Commons disposed of it in five content often is simply not assessable. By contrast, sessions of Committee. I do not propose to make any responsible journalism and other writing, including Committee points, but will concentrate on the broad science writing and broadcasting, are both intelligible thrust of some aspects of the Bill. We shall return in and assessable by others. There may, as I suggested, be due course to look at some of the valuable comments limited exemptions, for example for highly sensitive made and some of today’s observations from the types of investigative journalism, which we shall have noble Lord, Lord Lester. to consider, but by and large anonymised communication I welcome the Bill now, as I did in the committee, is simply not assessable by the public. They cannot tell and give it my support, subject to what I have just said. whether it is rumour—and if so, malicious rumour—or Its object is to simplify the law of defamation and to whether it is the smoke of a burning fire that they need make the law more transparent and more accessible, to look at closely. When a query about data, evidence laying the ground for reducing the stratospheric and or measurement arises, no one can seek clarification chilling state of costs in that field of litigation. because the information is just floating around as mere content and no one’s word. The Bill’s twin aims are to protect freedom of speech and at the same time provide adequate protection The communication that we need therefore to protect for reputation. It also seeks to come to terms with the is not mere dissemination or disclosure but genuine technological developments of our age. The man or communication that seeks to reach its audience, aims woman in the street needs easy access to the law, hence to be intelligible to them and is assessable by them. the observations of the noble Lord, Lord Mawhinney, That, I think, is the starting point for public interest that he prefers statute to common law. That may be so, defence that would reach into many of the areas that but we should seek to ensure that the burdensome have worried many Members of your Lordships’ House costs of bringing and defending actions, particularly who have spoken in today’s debate and many members cases brought by the powerful, are made more tolerable. of the public. In addition to legislation, a great deal can be achieved by the reform of court procedures and stronger, earlier 4.52 pm case management by our experienced judiciary. This Lord Morris of Aberavon: My Lords, I apologise for should be strongly encouraged. The missing link in being a little late and mistiming my arrival from my this debate, which we have been told about already—the Millbank office. This is an important reforming Bill, lacuna—is the lack of publishing of regulations and 959 Defamation Bill[LORDS] Defamation Bill 960

[LORD MORRIS OF ABERAVON] This brings me to an important point of procedure the Civil Procedure Rules necessary to achieve this. for all pre-legislative committees. It is important that The Government have had enough time to lift this veil. the proposers of a Bill make it clear, in a way that the It is a serious criticism which should be remedied courts can take into account, when that Bill is seeking before too long; we should know what they have in to make changes of substance in the law and when it is mind as regards the regulations and changes in procedures. simply proposing to codify the common law. That is a Trial by jury has now to all intents and purposes vital distinction. Such a course would have been a fallen out of use. I remember the time when one of the great help to the committee and perhaps to the courts. most senior High Court judges, Sir Michael Davies, Having said that, I was perhaps more alarmed than presided over most such trials. When the jury came to my colleagues in foreseeing the possibility, if not the assess damages, he suggested that if they regarded the probability, of litigation on the meaning of some of damage to reputation to be high, they should think of the words in the Bill. Despite the care and consideration the cost of a detached house; if moderate, the cost of a that has been shown in its drafting I surmise that this medium-sized car; and if comparatively small, the cost is inevitable, at least in the earlier years after it becomes of a nice holiday. Such words were a simple guide but an Act. I suppose that that is the price of any purported as far as I can recollect, they usually seemed to work. reform of the law. I bear the scars of having assisted in the introduction The very fact of the possibility of a jury trial—remote of the breathalyser Bill in 1967—another inherited as it now is—increases the cost of preparation and Bill—and of becoming one of the architects of a small delays decisions. As part of the process of aiming to cottage industry of litigation for a few years. The reduce costs, it was wise of those drafting the Bill to overriding object of ensuring that people of all try to eliminate the possibility even further. In practice, backgrounds have access to the legal system should it would no longer be a presumption. The matter will they be seriously defamed is a worthy one. The aim of be left to the judges, but there may still be those rare reducing costs, one hopes, will minimise the chilling instances—and the committee considered them—where, effect of the present system, which is out of reach of for example, public figures are involved and judges many people. I welcome the creation of the defences might find it in the public interest to have a jury trial. I of “truth” and “honest opinion” to replace the common hope that they would be very rare indeed. As one who law defences of justification and fair comment. I also has spent more than half his life addressing juries in welcome the creation of the new defence of: criminal cases, I do not yield one iota in my defence of such a system where the liberty of the subject is at risk. “Responsible publication on matter of public interest”. We had some indication in the comments by the It is new in the sense that it abolishes the common law Minister that there would be, in effect, no read-across defence known as the Reynolds defence. We have to criminal trials. I am sure that we will get that heard the noble Lord, Lord Lester, today and recent assurance before the end of this debate; I would value submissions have been made to many of us. I suspect it very much. that in Committee we will have to examine this very closely and see whether it has achieved what the The committee wrestled with the problem of definition Government had hoped it would. Noble Lords have to but could not come up with one save to leave it, as I pause for only one moment to consider that some of have said, to the experience of judges and a practice the issues that I have raised may well be ripe fields for which has hardened over the years. The issue of limiting litigation. costs goes deeper. There should be every encouragement Lastly, there is a brave attempt in Clause 15 to to the early determination by a single judge of many tackle some of the problems of the internet. In the of the issues. Where jury trial in a particular case department’s memorandum prepared for the Delegated remained on the table, it would fetter their jurisdiction Powers Committee of this House, it indicated that to determine many such matters. The costs implications provisions for the new notice procedure are likely to, are obvious. The simplification of the law and the early determination by a judge of issues, including “be lengthy, detailed and technical and are not considered suitable to be on the face of the Bill … The aim is to provide greater striking out, coupled with the possibility of mediation flexibility to adjust aspects of the new procedure in the light of and arbitration should go a long way to lower costs. experience”. The draft Bill proposed that, As we all know, this is a field of rapid developments, “a statement is not defamatory unless its publication has caused and primary legislation would not cope with what may or is likely to cause substantial harm to”, be the needs of the future. a person’s reputation. The committee was persuaded The committee spent a great deal of time as part of by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of its emphasis on cost savings on early resolution and Clashfern, that there were better words for the initial believed in the development of a culture in which hurdle that had to be overcome and to include “serious expensive legal action is the last, rather than the first, harm”. The Bill now proposes what is hoped would be resort. I cannot improve on the words of the committee an even simpler and, equally, a slightly stricter test of, dealing with a strict enforcement of the pre-action protocol. It referred to, “publication … likely to cause serious harm”, “a presumption that mediation or neutral evaluation will be the on its own. I surmise that there may not be a great deal norm; voluntary arbitration; and, if the claim has not been of difference in practice, but it seems to raise the settled, court determination of key issues using improved procedures”. barrier just a little to the bringing of actions. Only I hope that in our consideration, the committee has time will tell, but I welcome this formulation, and we assisted the Government and the House in what is an will see. important and worthy reform. 961 Defamation Bill[9 OCTOBER 2012] Defamation Bill 962

5.06 pm now, the manner in which people are accessing that information is changing by the month. In July 2011, Lord Black of Brentwood: My Lords, I declare an 17% of page views on the Telegraph website were via interest in this subject as the executive director of the an app. That figure now stands at 30% and is growing Telegraph Media Group and draw attention to my rapidly. other media interests in the register. In many ways, this issue of technological change This is a remarkably special day, for, although not goes to the heart of this Bill. To stand the test of time, quite as infrequent as the appearance of Halley’s it must be flexible enough to accommodate rapid Comet, sightings of defamation Bills are rare and developments in technology, which are not just changing equally moments of great awe and wonder. That there the face of the media but communications between should have been a gap of only 16 years since the citizens. We do not want the fate that befell earlier previous piece of legislation, a period of time in which pieces of defamation legislation. A flurry of libel Acts there has been the most unprecedented change in the in the 19th century were made redundant by the way in which people communicate, is cause for rejoicing. arrival of the mass media in the 1890s; the 1952 Act The Bill is long overdue and extremely welcome. preceded the arrival of commercial broadcasting; and That we have got to this point is the result of a great the 1996 Act coincided with the burgeoning of the deal of hard work by many people who have already internet. been mentioned in the debate. I join others in noting We have a real chance in this Bill to produce something that all those with an interest in free speech owe that is practical, flexible and above all durable. We eternal thanks to the noble Lord, Lord Lester of must seize it. I believe that this admirable Bill goes a Herne Hill, who has consistently championed the long way to achieving that, in particular with the cause and never given up the fight. I am delighted to introduction at long last of the test of serious harm, join everyone else in being a fully paid-up member of which is a sensible and proportionate initiative to stop his fan club. I should also mention the role played by trivial claims that waste the time of the courts. This is the editor of the Guardian, Alan Rusbridger, an extremely welcome. Later I will suggest how it might indefatigable campaigner for reform, and by Britain’s be strengthened even further to deal with the scandal regional and local press, which has often borne the of libel tourism. brunt of the chilling aspects of the current legal However, against the background of the changing framework, which the noble Viscount, Lord Colville world of communications that I have mentioned, perhaps of Culross, outlined so well. the single most important part of this Bill is Clause 8, I will inevitably speak about the Bill from the media which introduces the single publication rule. This change perspective, but in doing so I am acutely aware that the is vital to the future development of the communication media’s interest in this issue is but one small part of it. industries in particular, as it will protect them against Defamation and freedom of speech are intimately the current indefinite liability arising from the application bound together and freedom of speech is the birthright of 19th century case law in the 21st century age of of every Briton. In the digital age, when the ability of tablets, smartphones, Google, Facebook and Twitter. a single citizen to publish views on a bewildering array News no longer appears once a day or once a week, of platforms has never been so great, the question of but is likely to be permanently available for updating defamation is important for us all. While a century or and rereading in digital archives which are growing at more ago, it might famously have been the preserve of an exponential rate. Indeed, consumers now expect to the Duke of Brunswick and his manservant, today be able to find old news whenever and wherever they everyone has a stake in it. The media might still want it. Journalists prepare their work for publication provide the headline-grabbing cases, but never have accordingly, in information services disseminated across individuals been so exposed to the threat of long multiple media platforms, be it printed, blogged, tweeted, drawn out legal action and the punitive costs that go texted, accessed by app or mobile, broadcast or streamed, with it. The changes in the Bill will clarify and simplify in text, sound or audio-visual media, or a combination the law, which will be of great benefit to claimants as of all of them. well as defendants. It is therefore a vitally important step to ensure that The media are always likely to be at the sharp end there will be protection for subsequent publication of of defamation because of their reach, especially in the a statement, digital era. It is the profound, breathtaking changes that have taken place in technology that must form the “which is substantially the same”, backdrop to the Bill. When the previous piece of as that first published to the public. If there is one legislation went on to the statute book in 1996, the slight problem with the Bill, against the background I media and many forms of communication in general have mentioned, it is with Clause 8(4), which waters existed in much the same form as they had for decades. down this protection. Subsection (4) says that the rule Few newspapers had websites—the Telegraph was the does not apply, first to launch one in 1994—and they were merely “in relation to the subsequent publication if the manner of that static replicas of printed products. Some 16 years later, publication is materially different from the manner of the first that world is dead and a new one is in being. Today a publication”. media group such as the one I work for does not just That subsection takes no account of the fact that have a 30-odd-page printed product, but a digital content is now published simultaneously on a range of offering which in our case produced 408.5 million different platforms; this means, arguably, that the manner page views in August alone from across the globe, of publication is almost inevitably different. To be some 190 million of them from outside the UK. Even effective, this clause needs to be crystal clear and at the 963 Defamation Bill[LORDS] Defamation Bill 964

[LORD BLACK OF BRENTWOOD] as meaning, or whether something is comment, to be moment it is not. I hope that my noble friend will look determined early. In the mean time, both claimants at this again in Committee to ensure that Clause 8 is and defendants could be greatly assisted by the immediate genuinely fit for purpose in the digital age. removal of the practice direction that limits cost-capping There are a number of other important issues to to exceptional cases, as the Joint Committee on Privacy look at in Committee. The introduction of the responsible and Injunctions, of which I was a member, recommended. publication rule in Clause 4 is, in principle, very welcome; I urge speedy progress on this front. it seeks to import into statute the defences established In a recent lecture on this subject, Alan Rusbridger in Reynolds. Those defences are of massive importance, said, quite rightly: not least to investigative journalism. Reynolds itself is “The truth is libel doesn’t exist in a vacuum”. an objective test. We need to ensure that this Bill You cannot discuss one thing, he said, without looking neither undermines it nor, worse, neuters it by introducing at other issues that impact on freedom of speech, and a new set of defences which the courts may then spend that is absolutely right, a point also made with great another decade interpreting and the uncertainty of clarity by the noble Lord, Lord Mawhinney. which could be profoundly damaging. I wholly agree with the points that my noble friend Lord Mawhinney This is a welcome, liberalising measure that, especially made on this. Current case law makes clear that all the if amended under your Lordships’ eagle-eyed scrutiny, relevant factors can be taken into consideration by the will have a positive impact, not just on investigative court. Like the noble Lord, Lord Lester, I do not journalism but on every citizen’s rights to free expression. believe that there is a need for a tick-box checklist of However, all that would be for naught if the current factors. Setting them out in Clause 4(2) of the Bill is a debate about press regulation led to the implementation high-risk strategy. I believe that to avoid potentially of some form of statutory press controls, which would dangerous instability in this area, this list should be point very much in the opposite direction—it would removed and the courts should be allowed to rely on be giving with one hand and taking away with the and refer to the existing Reynolds criteria. other. I know that the Minister will not be able to comment on that, but I hope that he will, with his On one issue where I have concerns about the Bill, I customary cheeriness, simply note the point. The Bill will share the points made by the noble Viscount, is an enormous step forward, and one that every Lord Colville of Culross. Clause 12 hands to the citizen should welcome. courts the power to order the publication of the summary of a judgment. This is potentially tantamout to giving judges the power to dictate the content of a newspaper or magazine front page or the running order of the 5.18 pm 10 o’clock news, and is inimical to any basic concept Baroness Bakewell: My Lords, this is indeed a of editorial and press freedom or indeed of an independent momentous and welcome Bill, which has long been media. It is also a matter that is already covered by the needed. Our libel law is out of date and recognised by appropriate media regulatory codes of the BBC Trust, many to have a chilling effect on free speech, not Ofcom and the PCC successor body. There is no merely in this country but around the world. It has evidence that these have ever failed to produce a encouraged the phenomenon known as libel tourism satisfactory publication of the summary of a judgment and prompted legislation in the United States to protect in a defamation case. The clause is both otiose and American citizens from being sued in the UK. The odious, and it should go. UN Human Rights Committee has warned that our I make a couple of general points in closing. I am libel law could have a negative impact on the right to concerned that the Bill does not do enough to tackle freedom of expression worldwide. Libel actions against the issue of libel tourism. Clause 9 of the Bill does not individual citizens, reputable scientists and writers deal satisfactorily with it because it is about claimants have been used to silence comment and criticism that domiciled outside the EU, not defendants. It therefore is clearly in the public interest. does not address the problem of media companies in All this is known and understood in the framing of an age of global media being vulnerable to being sued this Bill, and there is broad political and public consensus in different jurisdictions under different laws for the for substantial reform. This is our opportunity to same publication. I wonder whether the way to deal frame a sound and robust defence of matters of public with this modern scourge might be to amend Clause 1 interest. So much has been acknowledged by the debate by making clear that publication is likely to cause in the House of Commons. I trust that the debate and serious harm to the reputation of a claimant only in amendments that we frame in this House will endorse England and Wales. I hope that the Minister will be and strengthen the path of travel already taken. I pay able to look at that. tribute, as has everyone else, to the noble Lord, Lord Lester Like a number of others who have spoken, I must of Herne Hill, and to the noble Lord, Lord Mawhinney, mention in passing the issue of high costs, which are and his distinguished Joint Committee on the draft still a problem in libel cases. I very much welcome the Bill for the distance that they have already come on Government’s intention to bring in CFA reform in this important enterprise. A number of important April, and indeed the work of the costs management elements, such as the single publication rule, the defence pilot scheme dealing with defamation. For all this to of honest opinion, and the protection for scientific be meaningful, though, the Bill needs to be complemented and academic publications, are already addressed in by changes to the rules of court to ensure that cost the Bill. All these are welcome. But there remain many controls become the norm, not the exception, and that areas where further muscle is needed to beef up the the new procedure is adopted to allow matters such protection of free speech in our society. 965 Defamation Bill[9 OCTOBER 2012] Defamation Bill 966

We live in a world with an abundance of fact, lawyers, who were consulted before transmission, advised opinion and speculation, and the technical means to that because the editor Lynne McTaggart also spoke distribute them instantly round the world. It is inevitable on the programme, it was giving fair and balanced that tensions will arise that are unique to the present coverage of the issue. The fact remains that a single day. As millions use Facebook and Twitter and write individual, Dr Singh, a person who incidentally had to personal blogs, the exposure of so many to the dangers remortgage his house to defend himself against the of legal action has suddenly become acute. chiropractors, remained exposed to the threat of libel from COMAG, a distribution company half-owned by Here I declare an interest. I am a broadcaster and Condé Nast. journalist. I am also a friend and broadcasting colleague of Dr Simon Singh. I have followed closely the case I relate this particular matter to address two issues brought against him by the British Chiropractic that need addressing further in the Bill: the issue of Association in 2010, and I have given vocal and financial time and the issue of cost. “The law’s delay” has been support to the campaign to have the libel laws reformed. common currency in this country since Hamlet first I am also a member of English PEN and a subscriber used the phrase and has become laughably familiar to Index on Censorship. I pay tribute to the continuing ever since Jarndyce and Jarndyce was mocked by efforts of these institutions to defend the freedom of Dickens in Bleak House. Today with the social media’s speech and published comment in this country. As a potential to prompt inhibiting threats of libel there is journalist, I am aware of the extent to which the threat ever-pressing need for such cases to be heard promptly of legal action can inhibit the exposure of facts that and resolved with the least possible time lapse which, are important for citizens to know. As an individual, I of course, brings me to the matter of costs. Any law of am conscious that by using Twitter I am exposed to the land that does not provide for equal access to further risk. A groundswell for the law to be strengthened justice for all is a flawed law. It has become clear that in this House is upon us—and in support of our individuals and small-scale institutions posting opinions amendments. on web forums can be sued for their opinions. Mumsnet, Legal Beagles, and Carer Watch have all been sued for I want to highlight two matters in particular, Clause 4 posting an opinion. In a statement made in November and the responsible publication of matters of public 2011, Dr Peter Wilmhurst said that he had, interest. There is also the issue of costs, which has “spent almost all my free time for 4 years and much money been mentioned several times, and the extent to which defending 3 defamation claims brought in England by an American they inhibit the possibility of justice being done. I medical device corporation, NMT Medical”. want to give an example of how fast things now move. NMT used the law to silence important medical evidence- As recently as last week events drew our attention to based opinion. The case consumed time and money. the way in which the threat of libel is being used to Such abuse of the libel laws calls for radical remedy. silence reasonable criticism, and to a need for the This is our opportunity, building on the sturdy work defence of public interest to be clearly and unequivocally of the Joint Committee and the Defamation Bill itself, endorsed. It also demonstrates the dilemma of conflicting to make that remedy robust and enduring. views of what truth and honest opinion are. This is what happened. The magazine, What Doctors Don’t Tell You, is according to its editor Lynne McTaggart 5.27 pm aimed at intelligent women between 35 and 55. I no longer belong to that target audience, but I cannot but Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames: My Lords, I, be attracted by its October cover, which headlines too, welcome this Bill and in doing so refer to my “Sunbathe your diabetes away” and “I avoided my registered interests as a practising barrister and arbitrator. hysterectomy through diet”. Inside it carried more I had the privilege of serving on the Joint Committee seriously an article about the HPV vaccine, calling it, of both Houses under the chairmanship of my noble friend Lord Mawhinney and, like others, I pay tribute “dubious … ineffective, and a highly dangerous solution to the to his excellent and courteous chairmanship. I also problems of cervical cancer”. add my tribute to my noble friend Lord Lester of On Monday last week Dr Simon Singh went on Herne Hill for all the work and learning he has devoted Twitter to criticise the magazine. He maintains that it to this issue over many years, for his Bill and for the is promoting advice that could potentially harm readers. help he gave the Joint Committee. On Tuesday the editor, writing on Facebook, called on The balance between reputation and freedom of subscribers to, speech is now wrong. It is tilted against freedom of “fight the action of bully boys trying to stop us”, speech. Libel cases and the threat of such cases, often unwarranted, have been used by the wealthy and their and who want to push the magazine off the newsstands. lawyers to stifle legitimate criticism and debate. So, as Here is a case of conflicting statements, both claiming the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell, has just pointed ownership of the truth. By Wednesday Dr Singh was out, academics who question the safety of medical threatened with legal action by COMAG, distributor procedures or pharmaceutical products, or journalists of the magazine, which declared in an e-mail to him who investigate a company’s employment practices, that it was unwilling to discuss the matter further and have been warned off and forced to back down rather had within three days already instructed legal counsel. than run the risk of ruin. That runs strongly counter The magazine, What Doctors Don’t Tell You,was to the public interest in legitimate debate. But it is not also the subject of criticism by last week’s Radio 4 only defendants who are frightened off. Private citizens, programme “Inside Health” in which a GP called it irresponsibly defamed in the media, are also deterred “ridiculously alarmist” and “frankly wrong”. BBC from action to protect their reputations by the cost 967 Defamation Bill[LORDS] Defamation Bill 968

[LORD MARKS OF HENLEY-ON-THAMES] should have to show that serious financial loss is likely and complexity of seeking legal redress. This Bill in order to be entitled to sue. The Bill as drafted fails rightly seeks to shift the balance in favour of freedom to address this issue. of speech and at the same time to simplify and modernise The changes in the substantive law proposed in the the law in what has become an arcane and complex Bill are not enough to transform the system. As has area. been said, the staggering costs and the procedural I turn to Clause 4 of the Bill, which rewrites the complexity of defamation proceedings are at least as Reynolds defence. My noble friend Lord Lester has much to blame as the substantive law for the present argued persuasively that it would be better to omit the inadequacy of the system. We must accept that defamation list of factors on the question of responsible publication cases will never be cheap, but we could make them and instead to state the broad principles in the Bill, simpler and quicker and therefore less expensive. To which he set out in his speech. He would then leave it do so we need changes to the rules to dovetail with the to the courts to develop those principles case by case. changes in the Bill. My provisional view—and I only differ from my noble First, there should be a single early resolution friend Lord Lester in detail and with great diffidence—is appointment in every case to determine as many issues that a reasonably clear set of guidelines would be as possible. I give a few examples: whether the serious helpful. It must not be exhaustive and it must never harm test is met; issues about meaning; whether a become a checklist of hurdles. We must avoid the kind statement was a statement of opinion, and whether of nightmare for publishers and broadcasters of which the basis of an opinion was sufficiently indicated; the noble Viscount, Lord Colville, spoke. Clear guidelines whether a statement was on a matter of public interest; would provide an easily understood code, which is one whether a subsequent publication was materially different of the aims of the Bill, enabling an intelligent layman from an earlier publication. Such an early resolution to look up the law on the internet and understand it appointment would clarify issues quickly and would, I without the need to search for the cases and read the suggest, often lead to settlement. Furthermore, any judgments in them to try to discern how the law is claim that did not meet the serious harm test would be likely to be interpreted. struck out. Alongside a public interest defence, the law should Secondly, there should be more active, court-led provide a public remedy for those defamed by reports case management throughout the life of every case. that are genuinely published in the public interest but Thirdly, courts should be far readier to stay proceedings that turn out to be inaccurate and cause harm. This, I to allow for mediation or other forms of alternative suggest, can be achieved without trespassing on editorial dispute resolution, with costs consequences for failure independence, as the noble Lord, Lord Black, suggested to co-operate. Fourthly, we need some realistic costs that it might. When that happens, a prompt public control, including, in the light of LASPO, protection retraction or clarification and an apology, prominently for less well off claimants. Qualified one-way cost published, should at least be encouraged. I would like shifting in defamation cases would do much to assist. to see provision for the court to take into account a Fifthly, I suggest, as the Joint Committee proposed, at prompt offer of such redress when dealing with libel least to trial this: all but the most complex defamation cases. This could be introduced as part of an early cases should be heard in county courts, with designated resolution procedure or it could be as an alternative to judges to manage and hear them in trial centres around a Clause 4 defence. Either way such a provision would the country. be a welcome development of the law and would I welcome the letter from my noble friend the go much further than an offer of amends under the Minister yesterday to all Members of your Lordships’ 1996 Act. House promising to bring forward such procedural The Bill does not restrict the right of corporations changes, but the Government’s response to the Joint to sue for defamation. The Joint Committee wrestled Committee on the timetable for procedural change long and hard with this issue. One the one hand, lacked urgency. I will take up a point made by my corporations are not natural persons and have no noble friend Lord Mawhinney. While it is right, of feelings. Large corporations can and do use their course, that the rules are the responsibility of the Civil financial muscle to stifle legitimate debate by threatening Procedure Rule Committee, I remind the House and to sue their financially weaker critics. Such corporations my noble friend that the Lord Chancellor has the may have other ways of protecting their reputations power, under Section 3A of the Civil Procedure Act without suing their critics for libel. On the other hand, 1997, to give notice requiring that committee to make not all non-natural persons are big and powerful. rules for a specified purpose. If he does so, the committee Defamatory statements can destroy legitimate businesses. must make such rules within a reasonable time. It Weighing these arguments, the Joint Committee seems to me that for your Lordships properly to recommended, as had the Bill proposed by my noble consider how we achieve meaningful overall reform in friend Lord Lester, that corporations should still be this area we should see the proposed procedural changes able to sue, but only if they could show at least a at the same time as we consider the substantive provisions likelihood of substantial financial loss. The Bill contains in the Bill even if there may subsequently be changes no such restriction, because the Government’s response in the light of any recommendations of Lord Justice to the Joint Committee argued that the serious harm Leveson. At the moment we are legislating while seeing test filled the gap. I do not entirely accept the Government’s only half the picture. I therefore urge my noble friend argument. Serious harm to reputation is not the same the Minister to encourage the new Lord Chancellor to as serious financial damage. The chilling effect of draw up a draft and publish it quickly so that we can allowing corporations to sue is severe. In my view, they see the entire picture in its frame. 969 Defamation Bill[9 OCTOBER 2012] Defamation Bill 970

5.38 pm Perhaps it is best to start with the positive, which should make it easier in due course to deal with what I Lord Triesman: My Lords, I want principally to think is less helpful. The committee of the noble Lord, focus on a limited but to me important set of arrangements Lord Mawhinney, has certainly helped us to approach set out in this Bill, and like other noble Lords I am the positive factors in a positive spirit. Of course, I am eager to see the accompanying documents to make strongly committed to the freedoms of speech and sure that I have understood it all. During the debate in opinion that underpin modern democracy. I have said 2010 on the proposals of the noble Lord, Lord Lester, so and I do not need to repeat it at length. It is I felt myself occasionally swimming against a strong absolutely right that these figure not just in the Bill but tide. Like others, I admire the noble Lord’s tenacity, in human rights legislation itself. I completely agree but on some issues I simply am not at all sure that the that abuse of the libel laws in the ways that the noble point of balance of rights that he prefers is the one Baroness, Lady Bakewell, has described is also deeply that I prefer. Like many of the speakers in that debate alarming. I am a passionate advocate of academic in 2010 and like many of the correspondents who have freedoms. kindly sent their analyses of the Bill to me in advance of today’s debate, it is clear that there are significant I had the privilege of taking part in the drafting of numbers in favour of clarifications to the current the 1997 UNESCO normative protocol on academic legislation, and so am I. Most are exasperated by the freedoms to which the United Kingdom is a signatory. cost of litigation and by people carpetbagging between It is worth going back to that document, given some of jurisdictions to find an advantageous setting for their the assertions that it makes about protections and defamation actions. A significant proportion of the freedoms. It demands that signatory nations protect correspondence was concerned to prevent people from and defend academic freedoms for all academic teachers being silenced by powerful and wealthy corporations and researchers, with a fairly broad definition of that, in the context of academic publication. precisely because what they publish or say may well, and with good reason, be testing, provoking or unpopular. Of course, as you would expect, there were many The noble Baroness, Lady O’Neill, was 100% right to restatements of the centrality of reporting and the say that this is also the source of much of the structure expression of opinion for the health and vitality of of the debates that drive the process of accumulating our democracy. That has been repeated in more or less knowledge. The aim of the protocol was to ensure that all the correspondence since 2010 and, again, I am not neither states nor powerful corporations could silence surprised. It is argued that actions for defamation lectures or conferences or prevent publication. The have the impact of censorship and that we live in a United Kingdom was among the first to adopt the democracy that should not tolerate censorship. The protocol, which was signed for this country by my public have a right to know. It is a key principle. The noble friend Lady Blackstone. exposure of corruption, injustice, negligence and In my view it must follow that we should extend incompetence and preventing misleading and dishonest protection in the area of defamation to prevent powerful statements and behaviour should always be open to and well heeled bodies stopping research publication public scrutiny. It would be hard not to go along with or even threatening litigation to stop publication. The all that. inequality of arms should never be a basis for undermining I have awaited this debate with interest because I the fundamental responsibility of all researchers and wanted to see where the balance might be struck teachers that is set out in the United Nations protocol between all these concerns—I am clear that I share and which has been central to the history of higher them—and the rights of individuals to protect their education in the United Kingdom. For those reasons reputations and their privacy when it is legitimate to the provisions in Clause 7 are welcome. do so, and at a cost that they can afford, which was in If I have one reservation, alongside the slowness part the burden of the remarks of the noble Lord, and somewhat ponderous process of peer review, which Lord Marks. the noble Baroness, Lady O’Neill, also mentioned, it is that it is not certain to me that peer-reviewed journals The debates in another place considered this balance. are wholly future-proofed. There is a trend towards I was heartened by the acceptance of the right to digital publication and the encouragement of open-source legitimate protection of reputation irrespective of one’s provision of all information in science by the world’s means: that is, less wealthy people should be able to leading universities. I think that is a great advance. protect themselves. That concept often appears much Digital publication does not necessarily finish peer less important than it should in debates, including in review, but it could do so, and you can see how easily it this debate if I may say so. Justice for all has to mean could. Indeed, in some of the newly developing disciplines exactly that—justice for all, not justice for the well peer-reviewed journals have yet to appear as journals heeled. This was at the centre of my concerns when we as there are advances in the disciplines ahead of advances debated the proposals of the noble Lord, Lord Lester, in publication. Perhaps in Committee we can improve and it remains so today. I am not disposed to say on these provisions. It would be good to do so. nothing about the issue because of the risk of being associated with the so-called “chilling effect”, a phrase I fully support the intentions to prevent libel tourism, much loved by the print media. I suppose that the and I am equally eager to see a proper restraint on hyperbolic impact of the phrase is intended to capture costs. Some of my criticisms might be mitigated if a profound truth, but actually it is simply expected to there were some means of limiting costs and the restrain anyone from probing rather more deeply into provision of some resource to enable less wealthy what a proposal might mean. litigants to respond to illegitimate and on occasion 971 Defamation Bill[LORDS] Defamation Bill 972

[LORD TRIESMAN] detail required may greatly increase the price of the feral attacks from rich and powerful media outlets. In provision beyond the means of most people to afford reality their challenge to citizens is, “Come on if you it. Indeed, what would count is itself likely to have think you can afford it”. The Press Complaints to be tested by the creation of precedents, because I Commission has become a refuge for many people doubt that we will see the answer hit upon instantly. precisely because they cannot afford to tackle this Secondly, it must be wrong to conflate honest opinion issue by any other route. However, as we all know, it and responsible publication. It lends credence to a has not been a particularly effective refuge for people dubious assertion that it is difficult to separate fact in those circumstances. and opinion. It will complicate things to the point of On page 4 of its briefing, Justice asserts that it has confusion in the relationship between a publication “seen little evidence” that conditional fee agreements, and earlier original publications. It confuses defamatory “increased access to justice in this area”. opinion with inaccurate fact, and I do not accept that Rather, Justice claims that the scheme was generally it is difficult to distinguish between the two or to used by the, create tests that would distinguish between the two. It provides no viable definition of the word “responsibility” “same private individuals and organisations who would have been in relation to an opinion expressed. able to bring a defamation claim in any event”. Thirdly, Clause 3, covering “Honest opinion”, seems I am considering here not the merits of CFAs, for to someone who thankfully confesses that he is not a which Justice provides none of the evidence that it lawyer to take a curious view about the way in which says it has seen and is probably wrong about, but the people think of their justifications for what they do. underlying implication that people are not really put At present, as I understand it, a defendant must show off by risks and costs. I think they have done very little that he or she was aware of the facts relied on when justice to those who are unable to take on media publishing. Now it appears that a defendant would giants, which can be massively threatening and whose not need to know or to have made much effort to commitment to ethical conduct has been seen in all its ascertain the facts that would justify an honest individual gory detail at the Leveson inquiry. from holding an honest opinion. It is hard to see how As with the reasoning on the defence of academic you can be honest without at least having made an research and teaching when pitched against the honest endeavour to find out what the facts were. I am corporations, this legislation has to deal with the hard put to imagine this exercising any restraint on a inequality of arms. This is where I have the greatest number of the newspapers or journalists that I know. difficulty with the Bill as it stands. Paul Farrelly MP It is a further licence to trash people without providing and Robert Buckland MP looked seriously at this any really intelligible facts as a basis for doing so. That issue in the other place. Mr Buckland rightly said that, is why I so strongly support many of the things that “there is a fine balance to be struck between freedom of expression my noble friend Lord Sugar said. and the rights of individuals to protect not only their privacy, but Finally, the concept of public interest has advanced their reputation”.—[Official Report, Commons, 12/6/2012; col. 214.] somewhat in this Bill. I am clear that whatever sells a It has become possible for the less well off to be newspaper is believed by its publishers to be in the libelled with impunity and without significant remedy. public interest, and I can see that it is very hard to It may be right at later stages of the Bill to discuss the provide a tighter definition, but there must be real occasions when judges have themselves undermined merit in requiring a publisher to show that a journalist the possibility of a remedy. I am with the noble Lord, source was credible and reliable. I do not think that is Lord Mawhinney, in saying that a government view on what happens uniformly now, but it seems such a the management of these kinds of issues would assist minimal provision. The BBC definition is a credible ordinary citizens and that we should not be afraid of position, the Ofcom code is a helpful provision, and assisting citizens. the NUJ briefing, I thought, was broadly sensible on This brings me to the main areas in which I see all this, but it certainly needs more work in the later weaknesses which I hope, given the spirit in which the stages of the Bill. debate has been introduced today, the Government I completely accept that we need to review and will be willing to address. They are weaknesses on improve defamation law and to do so while protecting which Lord Justice Leveson seems likely to report. I democratic accountability, guaranteeing academic freedom do not know how wise it is to pre-empt his report, but and ensuring equality of resource when cases do come we are where we are. First, in an attempt to prevent to the courts, as some inevitably will, but we are also trivial and vexatious claims, the Bill attempts, according living in a country that in my view is proud of the idea to the Explanatory Notes, to codify a tougher threshold that is just as much enshrined in human rights law that on the serious harm issue than exists now. I can see it is wrong to defame people and wreck reputation why this is necessary, but I am not at all clear that the without having a proper means of defence and without text as it stands in the Bill is an advance. the victim having proper redress. However we strike At present, the law tests whether there is or is likely the balance, there must be a balance, which is why I to be an adverse impact on reputation. The replacement welcome the suggestion of the noble Lord, Lord McNally, seems to me to involve a very detailed examination of that the discussions and the improvements will continue. all kinds of matters which I understand people would wish to examine but where it seems certain that there 5.53 pm will be a significant increase in costs to possibly relatively Lord Phillips of Sudbury: My Lords, to be the little advantage. The noble Viscount, Lord Colville, 13th speaker in this distinguished list is not the best believes that this might help. However, I fear that the of positions but I promise to try to avoid repeating 973 Defamation Bill[9 OCTOBER 2012] Defamation Bill 974 what others have so eloquently said. I think I may be engaged as a litigant on either side, and if we can come the only solicitor speaking in this Second Reading up with some thoughts on that I would be delighted. debate, which is perhaps surprising but it does give me At the moment I do not see them, except the vital a particular view of the issues in hand because for a point made by a number of Peers in this debate about number of years part of my practice was defamation simplifying, speeding up and consensualising as far as work. Indeed, I am happy to report that I managed to possible the preliminary stages in libel claims. I believe sustain the reputation and the bank balances of four that we can hope to achieve a much better resolution of my former leaders in the course of that time. than we currently do under this extremely classic I absolutely take on board what a fiendishly difficult system which lumbers along at an extraordinarily topic this is to deal with and how the great clash steady amble at an amazingly high cost. between the freedom of speech of the press on the one I want to say a few words before finishing on hand and the right of any man and woman to have his Clause 5 which deals with operators of websites. Quite or her reputation reasonably sustained on the other is a number of pressure groups and interest groups which exceedingly difficult to resolve. I hope noble Lords will contributed to all of us prior to this debate are anxious not mind my saying that many who have contributed about the terms of Clause 5. Indeed, the website their thoughts to this debate seem to me to have operators themselves are, not surprisingly, extremely overstretched the first principle at the expense of the miffed about some of its provisions. I happen to think latter. For the life of me I cannot see how the freedom that it is one of the most important provisions in the of the press can be exercised at the expense of the Bill because it gives the individual who has been freedom of any man or woman to have his or her defamed on a website a chance of getting some solace— reputation maintained—if you like, at the expense of some satisfaction. The clause requires the operator of honest and responsible reporting and speech. Trying a website to reveal to the claimant the identity of the to bridge those two is, as we all know and are finding person who posted the defamatory statement. That is today, very difficult. But I, like others, support 90% of an immensely important requirement. Without the this Bill very strongly. I have a considerable number of internet operator being able to do that, he or she will detailed points but I will not burden the House with lose the defence given them by Clause 5 against the them tonight; I will raise them at the appropriate time claimant. in Committee. I have to tell noble Lords that I spoke last week I thank the many contributors, not just in this with one of my colleagues in the office regarding the debate but the many outside organisations. There is a cost of getting from internet operators the particulars panel of libertarians called the Libel Reform Campaign to enable the claimant who has been grotesquely libelled which has done great and important work. The fact to get at the person who made the statement and that I do not agree with all of its outcomes is neither obtain an apology, a retraction and, in certain here nor there. I also thank my noble friend Lord circumstances, damages. The difficulties of doing that Lester, the Minister and the shadow Minister for the are almost impossible to exaggerate. It is not just a way in which they have dealt with this matter. It is a steeplechase; it is in some cases like climbing Everest. great credit to the House that we have in our ranks It takes years because, just as you obtain a court order such an extraordinary array of extraordinary experience that requires the internet service provider to reveal the which will stand us in good stead as we go along. I particulars of the person who has made the defamatory declare an interest, as I have already said, as a solicitor. comments, you find that the particulars given are not My firm, Bates, Wells & Braithwaite, still does a lot of sufficient. You need a further court order and a further libel law work, although I have not been in that field order. Spending £10,000 or £15,000 getting to the for 10 or 15 years. I will also say in the light of the identity of the person is not uncommon. That is remarks I am about to make that I was for 10 years a ludicrous and unfair. member of the Scott Trust and am wholly apprised of I should like briefly to touch on two points in the difficulties the press face. I heard particularly what Clause 5, because it should be strengthened. First, the noble Viscount, Lord Colville, said about the BBC Clause 5(2) states: and the way that it is inundated with futile but expensive claims. “It is a defence for the operator to show that it was not the operator who posted the statement”, There is a David and Goliath aspect in libel in my experience. I have mainly acted for individual claimants on the website. That is insufficiently sophisticated and theirs is an infinitely more frightening position because it would be possible in some circumstances than is that of the media outlet which they are suing or for the internet operator to be complicit with the being sued by. Some of the contributors today have person, who may be a foreign company, putting not really understood just how formidable it is to the libellous material on the web without being caught pursue a libel claim. I have to say from hard experience by subsection (3)(a). That needs to be changed. that the number of claims that I have seen dropped—good The other thing that is plainly wrong, and to which claims by good people against bad journalism—grieves my noble friend Lord Lester and the noble Lord, Lord my heart. One of the unresolved dilemmas for us all, Browne, referred, is that regulations under Clause 5, which I do not think we have come near resolving which are important and provide a lot of the pith and because I do not know that there is a resolution for it, bone of this part of the Bill, are to be made by the is the sheer cost factor. I happen to believe that the negative annulment procedure. That is not adequate. I LASPO reforms were necessary to preserve the integrity note, surprisingly and sadly, that our own Delegated of the process and the profession but I readily accept Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee said that it that this is the most expensive field in which to get thought that that procedure was all right because the 975 Defamation Bill[LORDS] Defamation Bill 976

[LORD PHILLIPS OF SUDBURY] and lengthier—far longer than when I was giving clause is detailed, difficult and so on. The complexity judgments in the House of Lords—with every year and detail made it inappropriate for us to deal with that passes? At the end of that judgment, he made under the positive procedure. That seems to me to be a three suggestions: first, that it was high time to reform good argument the other way. In any event, really the law of defamation; secondly, that we should make important matters are left for regulations. For example, a start by renaming fair comment as honest belief or one of the elements of defence for the operator is that, opinion; and thirdly, that the test should be subjective “the operator failed to respond to the notice of complaint in and not objective. I agree with the noble and learned accordance with any provision contained in the regulations”. Lord’s first and second suggestions, which is why I Noble Lords can see there that what the regulations support Clause 3, and indeed the Bill as a whole. will allow is absolutely crucial to the nature and strength However, with great respect, I do not agree with his of the two parties who are arguing over whether or third suggestion. I do not know whether this will not the operator of the website is or is not liable for become a live issue in Committee—I profoundly hope defamation. not. However, if it does, I remain of the view that the Lastly, is it not odd that a local newspaper should test should be objective, not subjective—in other words, be liable for libel in respect of a defamatory letter the test as set out in Clause 3(4). written to it, yet if someone posts an anonymous However, there was another point in the case of statement on a website that goes international, where Telnikoff v Matusevitch. The defamatory words were the potential damage to an individual can be vast, that contained in a letter written to a newspaper, in which is said to be less important than your little local the writer referred specifically to an article which had newspaper? There is a double standard at work. I appeared in the same newspaper only a few days understand that people like to keep the web free and before. We held that this was sufficient to enable the open and so on, and no one stands up for free speech defendant to rely on fair comment. However, we were more than I, but we have to have a better balance than reversed on that point by the House of Lords. It said that. Given the grievous damage that can be done that, since some people might have read the letter to an individual, which it is never entirely possible to without having read the article, the facts contained in erase, even if you obtain apologies and the rest, we the article should have been set out in the letter. I have not only to stand by Clause 5 but to make it always thought that the House of Lords was wrong stronger. about that and that the dissenting judgment of Lord Ackner, who many noble Lords will remember, was much to be preferred. I end by asking whether I am 6.05 pm right in thinking that, if similar facts were to come Lord Lloyd of Berwick: MyLords,itisalwaysa before the court today, it could take a different view pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Phillips of from that taken by the House of Lords in light of Sudbury. Like him, I welcome the Bill. I agree with Clause 3(3) of the current Bill. If so, it will prove that almost all—indeed, I think I can say all—its main Lord Ackner and the Court of Appeal were right all objectives. However, I should add that unlike the along. noble Lord I have never been an expert in the law of defamation. I will therefore say nothing about the important clauses, Clauses 4 and 6, which have been 6.11 pm the subject of full discussion by the noble Lord, Lord Lord Hunt of Chesterton: My Lords, I was approached Lester, the noble Baroness, Lady O’Neill, and many by two organisations to speak on this Bill. I have not other noble Lords. Those are the important clauses. followed the Bill, although I have had some dealings However, I once gave the leading judgment in a with my noble and learned friends as a technical decision of the Court of Appeal on the subject of fair expert. As a scientist, I generally support this Bill comment, which is now to be renamed, under Clause 3, because of the importance of freedom of speech in “Honest opinion”. That is my only reason for speaking science and, of course, for many organisations. Like tonight. It was the case of Telnikoff v Matusevitch, many others, one feels very gratified that one has who were both Russian émigrés living in London. The much greater freedom of speech in this country than great question was whether in a defence of fair comment in others—in the press, in Parliament and in the it was for the defendant to prove that he had an honest scientific world. However, even in parliamentary belief in what he had written. We in the Court of committees, civil servants are advised to be extremely Appeal held that it was not for him to make that proof. careful about what they say about individuals; as I The question was whether an honest man could hold found myself when I was in front of the Public Accounts such a belief—the test that is proposed in Clause 3(4). Committee in the Met Office. In other words, the test should be objective and not The limitations of press freedom have been covered subjective. The case went to the House of Lords and, I by other speakers and, as a scientist, I am very aware have to say, the Court of Appeal’s judgment on that of the importance of freedom of speech for progress point was unanimously upheld. in science and its application. However, the importance I mention that only because there was a later case in of the internet has not been emphasised very much in the Supreme Court on the subject of fair comment, this debate, which is included under Clause 5. The Joseph v Spiller, in which exactly the same point arose. internet can greatly expand freedom but it can also A lengthy judgment was given by the noble and learned create dangers, as the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, has Lord, Lord Phillips of Worth Matravers. Why is it that just explained. I declare an interest as I chair an all judgments in the Supreme Court seem to get lengthier environmental software company.We put all the formulae 977 Defamation Bill[9 OCTOBER 2012] Defamation Bill 978 that we use on the web—rather unusually—so that should not consider claims on technical issues until other companies and organisations can follow them. there has been public debate on the internet for some However, if more companies and organisations were defined period—for example, six months. During this more open, it might solve some of the problems that period, there could be a completely open process arise. whereby the complainant, the defendant, their friends In the UK, there is of course a widespread practice and their enemies put material on the website. When of individuals and organisations suing, or threatening the process finally arrived in a court, the court would to sue, individuals who express opinions and produce see what had happened over these months on the data that affect the complainant. Scientists, universities internet. This is a very powerful method of seeing the and journals are now quite fearful of being sued, or evidence for and against. threatened to be sued, because of the very high fees of I think that the point made by the noble Lord, Lord lawyers. I have colleagues at University College London McNally, in opening this debate is that we must think who receive vexatious threats of suing from organisations to the future. There will be some new approaches and when they have simply repeated certain points on extraordinary new possibilities. The present clause is websites. Even if these opinions are not finally disproved looking backwards slightly because this procedure in court, this can lead to considerable costs to these happens in any small community. Someone makes a individuals—so much so that universities, journals statement about somebody else, such as, “Did you see and newspapers do not necessarily support their employees him do this? Did you see him do that? My God, his or their contributors. I know a young journalist in potatoes are terrible”, and so on. There is a community London who reported about certain Russians in London assessment and, after a time, people see Mr So-and-so in a certain well known newspaper. When it started selling bad potatoes, people hear about it and the getting tricky, he went to the law firm of the noble community decides. It does not normally end up in Lord, Lord Phillips, and the problem was solved. blows. We might have a solution if we go back to However, there was a nasty withdrawing of support primitive society and we go forward to the internet. from the newspaper that had published his article. I quickly sent some e-mails this afternoon, having This aura of threat and so on has been a very nasty thought about this in the morning. I gather that there feature of the current situation. I was once threatened is a free online Canadian dispute resolution service at by a scientific colleague for a statement in the minutes www.eQuibbly.com—I am sorry for my lawyer friends of a meeting of the National Physical Laboratory; he that it is free. Apparently, eBay tried to set up a similar said that he would sue me. I quickly changed the site in the UK but we are obviously so full of lawyers minutes as it was not worth the cost. He is now quite a that there were no takers for this free service. It now good friend. I do not remind him of this very often but operates in the Netherlands, in Dutch—so I will not he is passionate sometimes. give you the website. If an independent body were to When the Met Office became a trading fund, it had run such a defamation website, it would enable web to consider whether to take out insurance against organisations generally to operate more freely and being sued for inaccurate weather forecasts. Noble would ensure a wider dissemination of data and opinions. Lords can imagine that many weather forecasting Finally, an important point made by noble Lords organisations have considered such an idea. However, concerning the dangers of libel tourism is that it is we decided against it because there has been only one having quite a chilling effect—a term used earlier—in half-successful case about weather forecasting—noble Africa, where well-to-do people are threatening poorer Lords may tell me something else—which was in the people, communities and organisations with defamation United States about some dodgy data from a buoy off cases in London. The inhibition of libel tourism in the Newfoundland. We can be secure in this club of weather Bill is a very important development and I support it. forecasting organisations. The Bill has a very important public interest clause 6.20 pm that should help to deal with some of these issues because it recognises the public interest in the defamation Lord Taverne: My Lords, I shall be very brief. As I processes. However, other noble Lords have mentioned explained at the Second Reading of the Bill of my that there is nothing in this clause, or in the Explanatory noble friend Lord Lester two years ago, I no longer Notes, about having much more inexpensive procedures regard myself as a lawyer because I ceased to practise for the assessment of defamation claims. The noble in 1966 and, when I did practise, I knew nothing about Lord, Lord Marks, quite rightly mentioned this. This libel law. will become increasingly needed with regard to claims I want to make a brief point about safeguarding and opinions expressed on the internet. Given the freedom of scientific publication in relation to Clause 4. extraordinary powers of extracting and organising The magazine Nature recently won a case in which it data now demonstrated by Google, and the popular was sued by a man called El Nashi, the retired editor involvement in the internet shown by Wikipedia and of a publication called Chaos, Solitons and Fractals. other sites, surely Clause 5 should now include the Nature reported criticisms of improper self-publication setting up of a defamation website by some independent during his time as editor. In its defence, Nature pleaded body—for example, the Law Commission, the noble truth and justification and also sought to rely on the Lord, Lord Phillips, or whoever—in which claims and Reynolds defence. It offered a right of reply, which counterclaims on scientific and technical questions was not taken up. The plaintiff unfortunately pursued could be presented. There could be some editorialising his case in person, which greatly complicated the as on Wikipedia. The clause might contain the provision proceedings. The case took four years. It involved of such a website. It could state that judges and courts getting expert witnesses from different parts of the 979 Defamation Bill[LORDS] Defamation Bill 980

[LORD TAVERNE] unintentionally creating cottage industries by advocating world and contacting staff who had moved on. It cost something which seemed to us banal at the time but £1.5 million and took up a huge amount of management which might open up a whole set of other legal problems time. down the road. I think that the drafting of Clause 6 is I am advised that a new and effective public interest rather fine in principle because it avoids that issue. defence would have avoided that ordeal but that the Although in general academics believe in the desirability Bill as it stands, with its new definition of the Reynolds of qualified privilege for statements in peer-reviewed defence, would not. Nor, I am told, would the Bill as it journals, they also know that not all academic journals stands have benefited Ben Goldacre or Peter Wilmshurst, are as rigorously and well run as others. One possible or Simon Singh in his dispute with chiropractors, in way out of this problem is to have a list of the ones their ordeals. If the Minister, my noble friend Lord that are considered to be the well run academic journals. McNally, can show that this is wrong, I shall be However, the method adopted in Clause 6 is better delighted. If not, the Bill should be amended, and it than that. It emphasises the correct procedures for seems that the Neill amendment, as mentioned by my running an academic journal and a peer review. That noble friend Lord Lester, would be the answer. is the right way to go and it is a very happy piece of drafting. Perhaps I may add one thing, and it is a minor 6.22 pm caveat. I hope that the words “academic matter” in Lord Bew: My Lords, I support the Bill. At this late Clause 6 are not used in the way that sports commentators stage, I do not wish to repeat many of the points that use them. When a team is losing 5-0 and somebody on have been made so excellently in the House this afternoon, the other side scores a goal two minutes from the end, except in one respect. I want to repeat the thanks to the commentator always announces, “Well, they’ve the noble Lord, Lord McNally, for the letter that he just scored but that’s an academic matter”. I hope it is sent earlier this week, for his introduction to the Bill assumed in Clause 6 that an academic matter can and for his interest in this subject throughout. I also sometimes be very serious. Assuming that the use of thank the noble Lord, Lord Mawhinney, who chaired the term “academic matter” is not that of the sports 18 meetings of the Joint Committee with great skill commentator, I am very happy to endorse Clause 6. and brought us to a set of very important and useful I repeat my fundamental point: there needs to be a conclusions. I thank, too, the noble Lord, Lord Lester zone of qualified privilege because the quality of our of Herne Hill, who has campaigned with such great democratic life suffers if academics driven by a research subtlety on this matter for some years. On that point, conclusion feel unable to state that conclusion. recalling the debate that the noble Lord introduced in June 2010, it is very pleasant to note how we have 6.27 pm moved on. Listening to the debates in the other place, it is clear that there is considerable cross-party consensus. Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town: My Lords, it is I think that on an issue such as libel tourism there gratifying to reach this point in the debate—a debate is now a consensus which did not exist in the summer referred to as one of “awe and wonder” by the noble of 2010. Lord, Lord Black. I should certainly like to add my The noble Lord, Lord Mawhinney, was kind enough congratulations to the noble Lord, Lord Lester, on to recall that in the Joint Committee I was very concerned whose Bill I had the fortune to make my maiden about academic freedom, which is dealt with in Clause 6. speech back in July 2010. I want to say how happy I am that we have faced up to I was also a member of the Joint Committee, chaired this important matter in the Bill. The most important by the noble Lord, Lord Mawhinney, with the flair point is that within academe—the noble Lord, Lord and understanding that we have witnessed today and Hunt, touched on this—there is not the freedom that indeed on occasion with humour and forbearance of many people outside academe believe exists. There are my little misdemeanours. One of his major contributions challenges to free speech. Those who edit academic was to the readability of that report. He was determined journals and run university presses do so on a shoestring, that it should be understandable to all because, as he so the possibility of any type of libel action immediately, said, defamation can affect everyone—the teacher, the quite understandably, produces a massive chilling effect, social worker, the victim, the innocent and, particularly and we all suffer from the fact that in the current for the noble Lord, Lord Mawhinney, his beloved climate academics cannot say things which their research former constituents in Peterborough. He wanted all has driven them to believe to be true. the people without recourse to a lawyer to be able to The noble Lord, Lord Sugar, made a very good read and understand our report. point when he talked about the popular press being Of course, that is also one of the aims of the Bill: to driven by money. I understand why he makes that bring together in one statute, without recourse to case point but it does not apply to academics—they are law, the meaning and the limits of our law on defamation. driven by many things, but not by money. It is very That is a major aim that we should keep in mind as we important for the health of our democratic society consider the Bill. Does it truly consolidate, with clarity, that we have freedom of expression and a zone of the law on libel such that journalists know what they protection for research and the reaching of conclusions can write and the named can know whether they have which may indeed be unpalatable to others. None the a case against the writer or publication? More than less, when we discussed this matter in the Joint Committee, that, we need a Bill which ends speculative cases aimed we were often worried—this point was frequently raised not at righting an injustice but at silencing the curious by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Morris—about and those who criticise the rich and powerful, denying 981 Defamation Bill[9 OCTOBER 2012] Defamation Bill 982 free speech. The chill factor hangs over campaigners my husband, who is a professor of physics and a as well as over journalists. We also want a Bill that frequent contributor to Nature and similar journals. I reduces the costs of settling disputes. have now declared all my interests. As we have heard, there is consensus about the However, it could yet be a better Bill, as we have importance of this Bill as expressed by the expert heard in this well informed debate. As the noble Lord, contributions of noble Lords today. That consensus Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames, has noted, the Bill has also been expressed over many years, especially by fails to deal with the Joint Committee’s recommendation the noble Lord, Lord Lester of Herne Hill, and by my to reduce substantially—others would say to abolish—the fellow Joint Committee members: the noble Lords, ability of corporations to threaten to take, or to take, Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames, Lord Bew, Lord individuals to court, often to intimidate them into Black, Lord Phillips, the noble and learned Lords, silence. Why has that not appeared in the Bill? Is it Lord Morris of Aberavon and Lord Lloyd of Berwick, because of pressure from business? I agree that, on the the noble Baroness, Lady O’Neill of Bengarve, and my whole, this is not a party-political Bill but I sense the noble friends Lord Sugar, Lady Bakewell, Lord Hunt heavy hand of business behind that regrettable absence of Chesterton and Lord Triesman to say nothing of from the Bill. We know that companies use the threat my noble friend Lord Browne of Ladyton. That is a of libel action to manage their brands and to close true roll call of experience and expertise. down criticisms of their products and behaviour. That As has been said today, part of our intrinsic democratic is bullying and the Bill should prevent the misuse of schema is to balance the safeguarding of our very the important law on libel. precious freedom of speech while protecting against In my maiden speech, I spoke about the extraordinary its misuse to denigrate others falsely, and ensuring that pressure on organisations, such as Which?, when they the law is not misused to stifle disclosure or criticism. want to assess, on behalf of the public, the safety, We must permit truth to speak to power, even as we value for money, effectiveness and reliability of goods protect individuals from being trounced in the popular or services. I ask the Minister: what in this Bill would press or anonymously on the web. enable Which? to expose poor quality financial products, Concern on this matter is not new. The Royal dangerous electrical goods, shoddy repair firms or Commission on the Press, set up in 1947, acknowledged lousy restaurants if it risks the threat of defamation the central dilemma that a free press is essential to a and the thousands that it costs to defend such an democracy, but that a press driven by commercial action, no matter how weak the case? interests is not really free. More recently, Stephen More recently, I have been involved with Citizens Sedley has written that: Advice on the issue of civil recovery. That is a rather “When the European Convention on Human Rights was … pernicious little device used by a number of high street adopted in the early 1950s, few doubted that the chief threat to retailers, such as Boots, Debenhams and Tesco, to private life was the state—the informer, the watcher, the secret extort money out of those accused—but not necessarily policeman. Today there is widespread agreement that segments of guilty—of shoplifting, via empty threats of civil court the press … pose a different but still real threat to private life”, action. Citizens Advice has been hampered in exposing and that, this racket by threats of defamation action. The “the tabloids’ self-justification … mirrors that of the authoritarian organisation knows that they will never come to anything state”. because it researches what it writes extremely carefully I think that is what the noble Lord, Lord Sugar, and makes sure that it is true. But even to answer such said earlier in the debate. We need a Bill that threats involves expensive legal time. Many of the enables serious and responsible journalists to expose cases quoted today, whether chiropractitioners or the misbehaviours, whether of the state, corporations, magazine threatened by Nature, would have been stopped individuals or even your Lordships’ House, but which in their tracks had this hurdle against corporations protects the less powerful from an all powerful, well being able to sue been in place. resourced tabloid press or scurrilous anonymous websites. I turn to costs, which has been raised by almost They should not be given a licence to libel. As the every speaker. Costs are the real killer. It is odd that noble Viscount, Lord Colville, has made clear, this one can settle party-wall issues, small claims, insolvency, issue of balance is key. In future we will work on this even criminal cases locally at the magistrates’ court, or Bill to get that right. in the small claims court, or even in the bankruptcy The Opposition wants a new Bill on defamation court, but when it comes to libel, there are expensive enacted and, as many others have, we congratulate the lawyers—some of whom are threatening and probably noble Lord, Lord McNally, for ensuring a speedy and in breach of their own code of conduct—vast bills, careful process, taking the Lester Bill through to a long delays and threats of costs. Those are the major draft Bill, through the consultation, through the determinants of whether one can pursue or defend a Commons, and presenting it here today. We welcome defamation claim. As the noble Lord, Lord Marks of key parts of the Bill, such as the removal of the Henley-on-Thames, has suggested, why are we not presumption in favour of jury trials, which provides a considering whether county courts might be suitable major potential reduction in costs and allows earlier to deal with this? decisions and, we hope, earlier resolutions. There is The question of costs must be settled, or access to the new defence for peer-reviewed material in academic— justice will be limited only to the most wealthy. Crucially, properly academic, in the words of the noble Lord, we must raise the bar against frivolous cases where no Lord Bew—journals, which was a key recommendation serious harm has taken place even if an untruth has of the Joint Committee. That point particularly pleases been written. The Joint Committee recommended “serious 983 Defamation Bill[LORDS] Defamation Bill 984

[BARONESS HAYTER OF KENTISH TOWN] that can be defamed and damaged and that they have and substantial” harm, as the noble Lord, Lord a right to defend their reputations. There has been no Mawhinney, has reminded us. It may be that those two great bullying by big business—the noble Baroness is words are not necessary, although I think they are getting into conspiracy theories. However, we can look different, but they would send a signal that the law at this in Committee. She also talks about the various should be used only in significant cases. organisations trying to hold business to account that We also need some clarity on definitions, so as to can be bullied. Over the months that I have been avoid more case law. We need greater certainty, so that working on this, I have heard enough hearsay evidence people can easily judge whether there has been defamation. about the willingness to fire off lawyers’ letters and Similarly, as recommended by the Joint Committee, rack up costs or implied costs. we need clear authority for judges to strike out unnecessary I hope that some of the things that we are doing—the actions at an early stage, before costs mount up as threshold and the reform of defence, particularly the disease within the body, and there needs to be clear public interest defence—address this. Something that guidance for judges to exercise that authority. The has also come up time and again in debates, which we consultation that preceded the Bill included an early will look at, is the cost issue and case management. I resolution procedure which would help to lower costs shall go back to the Ministry of Justice to find out by providing earlier determination of key issues, such how speedily we can respond, but I understand that as triviality, meaning, and questions of fact and opinion. when the House goes into Committee it will want Regrettably, the Bill contains no provisions to implement information about some of the issues that we have such a system, but surely it is a key requirement. said, quite rightly, that we want to manage by secondary As my noble friend Lord Browne has made clear, legislation or by consultations with the judiciary.However, we support the thrust of this Bill, but it could be a I also take the point that we need to give the House as better Bill. In Committee, we will work with colleagues early as possible the thinking and direction of travel in across the House to ensure that this welcome Bill is which we want to go in these areas. I take on board also a better one. what the noble Lord, Lord Browne, asked me at the beginning: whether we would be able to publish some 6.38 pm kind of timetable for bringing forward this further information. I will do my best. Lord McNally: My Lords, in opening the debate I When so much is to be discussed in Committee, I said that I was looking for help in carrying the Bill hope that colleagues will understand that summing up forward. The tenor and content of the debate have like this and dealing with the detail of some of the lived up to my expectations. We also have the confidence questions would probably run for about an hour. Here of the other place, which knowingly passed us a good are the notes that my officials in the Box sent me to deal of work. Usually we complain that it does this answer detailed questions. I also made 25 separate without acknowledging it. At least this time it does notes myself. I can try doing so if noble Lords want, and I hope that we can carry forward these discussions but what I have taken out of this is that we have in Committee in a way that will produce the better Bill certainly got a number of things right, which people to which the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, referred. have welcomed. I notice the point that the noble I acknowledge what the noble Baroness and others Viscount, Lord Colville, made: that the Reynolds defence have said: that in many parts, this is a consolidation is too restrictive. That is partly why we have invited Bill, aimed at clarifying the law and putting it into a more comment. It is admitted that the clause that we place where people can clearly understand it. My have put forward will need further work. That is what intention has always been that, where necessary, we I look to do in Committee, and I hope that this work should take the law forward. In particular, as has been will avoid the kind of back-street bullies that he described. referred to, we are setting ourselves a pretty fierce We will also look at Clause 4, certainly in the light of challenge where the internet is concerned because of the Flood judgment but also after a number of other the speed of change. However, we should not duck comments made during the course of this debate. away from it simply because we face rapidly changing There was interest during the debate—we shall technologies. probably discuss this further—about where to get It is also good that there were voices in this debate satisfaction in these cases. A number of speakers that were not simply politically correct. It would have referred to the wisdom of making sure that judges can been very easy to say that we are all in favour of free order suitable corrections. Others warned us against speech and that it is very good, but the contributions putting judges in the editor’s seat. It is part of the of the noble Lords, Lord Sugar and Lord Triesman, nature of this debate that we have those differences. I and my noble friend Lord Phillips were important in was grateful for the kind comments of the noble Lord, saying that this Bill seeks a balance between the freedom Lord Mawhinney. I did not know that “serious and of speech and the rights of journalists to pursue the substantial” was the contribution of the noble and truth and the rights of individuals to protect their learned Lord, Lord Mackay. I always take very seriously reputation and in some circumstances their privacy. anything suggested by the noble and learned Lord. A This debate had the necessary balance, which takes us number of other people have given warnings. When forward to Committee. we come to Clause 4 we shall look at this difference On the question of defending the rights of business, between those who want some guidance for those the noble Baroness is right; this was raised in the looking at the law and those who want to avoid a tick Committee and I gave an opinion then. The Government’s box. Again we can explore the best that we can get considered view is that businesses have reputations between ticking boxes and giving guidance. 985 Defamation Bill[9 OCTOBER 2012] Britain’s Industrial Base 986

A variety of people have commented on costs. I noble Lord, Lord Lester, is probably right and that take them all on board. It was interesting that a Lord Ackner got it right. We hope that we have got it number of speakers—the noble Lord, Lord Mawhinney, right in this legislation. among them—referred to the case for putting arbitration The spirit of the debate, from the response of the and mediation into the process. This is a great desire, noble Lord, Lord Browne, to the closing speech of the but how we do it, I am not quite sure. On some of this noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, reflects that we have we may have to wait to hear what Lord Leveson is been given a serious task to do and that this House going to say. However, this Bill is not just newspaper- will now set about that task. Once every so often—this specific, of course, and I was very interested in the time after 16 years—the House gets a chance to look comments on the way in which arbitration is being at this very important area of law and we intend to do offered on the internet. I take the point made by the our job responsibly, seriously and with due pace. noble Lord, Lord Lester, that we should not get blown I was not sure whether this had been agreed by the off course by Leveson. We can deal with defamation usual channels, but I think that the Bill has been without that being a cause for delay. moved to Grand Committee, which will be very useful I am extremely grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady for doing the work that we have set ourselves. O’Neill, and indeed to all the scientists who contributed. One of my driving motivations has been to try to get Bill read a second time and committed to a Grand something that would deal with the undoubted problems Committee. that scientists, academics and others face. The noble Baroness, Lady O’Neill, was realistic enough to realise that these are complex issues. As she said, this is the Britain’s Industrial Base central piece in the jigsaw of legislation. I was pleased Question for Short Debate by the favourable comments of the noble Lord, Lord Bew. We are trying to provide legislation that gives 6.57 pm genuine protection to the scientific community, and I Tabled By Lord Adonis look forward to working in Committee. If there are improvements that give that protection, we will certainly To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their look at them. assessment of the strength of Britain’s industrial The noble and learned Lord, Lord Morris, gave us base. the wise guidance again that, while protecting freedom of speech, we have to give adequate protection for Earl Attlee: My Lords, this is a time-limited debate reputation. He advised me to bring forward the promised and the time for all speakers, except for the noble regulations as soon as possible. I was interested as well Lord, Lord Adonis, at 10 minutes and my noble friend that the general opinion was that we had got it right as Lord Marland at 12 minutes, is limited to six minutes. far as jury trial was concerned. That is extremely I remind the House that this means that when the welcome. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Morris, clock shows six minutes, it means that the speaker has asked me whether there was any insidious read-across already reached their permitted time. to criminal trials. Unless they are not telling me something, and unless he gets an urgent letter from me tomorrow Lord Adonis: My Lords, I first congratulate the morning, the noble and learned Lord can take this as noble Lord, Lord Marland, on his new post. He an assurance from the Dispatch Box that there is no earned great respect for his work at DECC, and I read-across to intentions about jury trials. The noble know he will do the same at BIS. and learned Lord, Lord Morris, himself made the I do not think that there is much dispute that point that, with the internet, we must put flexibility Britain’s industrial base is too weak and too narrow. If into this legislation. I remember that when we debated that were not the case, we probably would not be in a the Communications Data Bill we kept on talking double-dip recession and we would certainly not be in about “future-proofing”—much good that it did us. a crisis with 2.6 million unemployed, youth unemployment Future-proofing may be impossible in the modern of more than 1 million and national income still technological age, but we can build in flexibility. significantly lower than before the 2008 crash. It is I much appreciated the contribution from the noble taking us longer to get out of this recession even than Lord, Lord Black, about the serious-harm test being it did to get out of Great Depression of the 1930s. good, and his comments that the Clause 8 single- Without a stronger industrial base, we face a bleak publication rule is much needed but perhaps should be future, and I think we now all understand the need to clarified. be bold and explicit about this. Until recently, the I should perhaps say to the noble and learned Lord, words “industrial strategy” were unmentionable in Lord Lloyd, that I have conflicting advice on his point polite society. They were regarded as a hangover—in about Lord Ackner’s judgment. My officials have sent all senses—from the disastrous 1970s and British Leyland. me a note saying that we will look at this and write to However, as Vince Cable put it in his Imperial College him, but the noble Lord, Lord Lester, passed me a speech last month: note saying that of course we got it right. One of my “We can have an industrial strategy by default or design. great feelings of loss about this House is that Lord Ignoring this reality is not a policy—it is just negligence”. Ackner is not here, ready to tear whichever Minister He continued, and I agree with this too: happened to be at the Dispatch Box to small pieces “But just as bad would be to approach all our possible with his analysis of the legislation. My view is that the interventions in an ad hoc way, subjecting every policy decision to 987 Britain’s Industrial Base[LORDS] Britain’s Industrial Base 988

[LORD ADONIS] should be an equal partner, not a subordinate one, and a short term tactical decision. There is not a serious and successful that the UK’s position at the heart of any military major company in the world that would proceed in such an equipment consortium should be assured. unplanned way”. We discussed all this at Filton. But just as pressing I agree, but that is precisely how we have been proceeding to Airbus were its skills requirements. Last year the as a country for a generation, and it has to change. company had 1,500 applicants for 86 apprenticeships. In my experience, telling stories is more powerful Yet despite this number, it could not recruit enough than reciting statistics when painting a big picture. So school-leavers with B grades or better in A-level maths I want to tell four brief stories. Yesterday, I went out and physics required for its higher level apprenticeships. on a boat to see the huge new Statoil wind farm off the Partly to tackle this it is sponsoring the proposed Norfolk coast at Sheringham Shoal. When I was not Bristol University Technical College which will specialise being seasick, I was amazed at the size and scale of the in engineering for 14 to 18 year-olds, but far broader turbines: 88 of them, across a huge stretch of sea, each action is required to supply its skill needs. rotor 350 feet in diameter, generating enough electricity It was the same story when I visited Jaguar Land for 220,000 homes. Sheringham Shoal is only the Rover’s state-of-the-art facility at Gaydon near Warwick beginning: the plan for nearby Dogger Bank, which I last month. Again, a brilliant success story both in previously knew only from weather forecasts, is for technology and products, including the new Range 3,000 of these giant turbines, with construction starting Rover. JLR benefits from a deep partnership with the in 2015 if the finance can be put together by the University of Warwick, which my noble friend Lord development consortium. Bhattacharyya has done so much to forge over so This is green energy in action. By luck of geography, many years. But again, real concerns over skill levels, we have a greater opportunity to develop it than any too small a pool of engineering graduates from which European nation besides Germany and Denmark. It is to recruit—JLR told me that by its estimates the UK a huge, growing industry in construction, design and is producing only half the number of graduate engineers maintenance, yet in industrial terms, we are seriously that it needs—and too few would-be apprentices with behind the curve. The Statoil project director told me the right skills. that barely a fifth of the construction and assembly Another key issue for JLR is its supply chain, too work for Sheringham Shoal was done by companies little of which is local or even British. Yet British located in Britain. The turbines are made by Siemens suppliers are finding it hard, if not impossible, to and imported, and the foundations, the offshore cables, secure the patient finance they need to expand and the and a good deal of the work installing the turbines is new inward investors likewise. The Society of Motor done by overseas companies with little or no physical Manufacturers and Traders published a devastating presence in the UK. report in June specifying how the growth of supply chain companies in Britain was being constrained by I was told by Statoil that infrastructure is another access to capital and lack of sectoral and regional weakness, in particular the absence of superfast broadband expertise on the part of the banks. on the Norfolk coast and terrible mobile phone reception. As for the huge Dogger Bank investment, uncertainty My fourth story is from my experience as Secretary over long-term policy for renewable energy is a bigger of State for Transport in the previous Government in issue. So we are in the midst of a green energy revolution awarding contracts for new trains. This is a big potential yet new jobs and investment will be delayed and/or go source of jobs and value to UK plc which will get abroad unless we get our act together as a country. steadily bigger as rail travel grows and HS2 is constructed This needs to start, crucially, by ensuring that Siemens in the next decade and beyond. The state is the procurer builds its proposed £210 million turbine factory in of these trains. To paraphrase Vince Cable, its contract Hull, the fate of which is now uncertain because of decisions constitute an industrial strategy by default Government prevarication on wind energy. or by design, and if it is not by design then that is pure negligence. The issue is simple: because of past negligence, Story two. Last week I visited Airbus at Filton near 21st century Britain—amazingly—no longer has a Bristol, part of the pan-European operation which domestically owned rail manufacturer. There is only has made Airbus so brilliant a rival to Boeing with its one international company, Bombardier, which even A320s, 330s, the soon to be 350s and the giant 380s. As makes trains in Britain. So, as Transport Secretary, I well as its success in China, Airbus has taken the decided to have an industrial policy by design in competition directly to the United States with a new respect of the £4.5 billion contract to supply the factory in Alabama. The expertise in designing and successor trains to the Intercity 125s. To cut a long making aircraft wings at Filton is second to none, just story short, this is what we did: Hitachi, the most as the engine technology at next door Rolls-Royce is experienced high-speed train manufacturer in the world, second to none. now into the seventh series of Japanese bullet trains, Airbus itself is a fruit of industrial policy which won the contract and agreed as part of the deal to dared not speak its name in the 1980s, when state build a factory in Newton Aycliffe in County Durham, loans made possible the A320, an investment which not far from Nissan, another great Japanese inward has been repaid many times over. Similar state industrial investor in transport manufacturing. The present policy is now equally imperative in decisions surrounding Government stuck with the contract, the factory is the proposed BAE/EADS merger to create a military being built and there will be more than 700 new jobs. equivalent of Airbus. The Government cannot just Now I had hoped that this would be the beginning leave it to the market. The Government are the market of a coherent industrial strategy to build up domestic in this case. The critical requirements are that the UK rail manufacturing. Alas, the present Government awarded 989 Britain’s Industrial Base[9 OCTOBER 2012] Britain’s Industrial Base 990 the next rail contract for the new Thameslink trains to stated aim. It is backed up with policies of reducing Siemens without securing UK manufacturing. This the corporation tax to its most competitive level, reducing was serious negligence. If Siemens can build a wind barriers and regulation on employment and actually turbine factory in Hull, and can even be persuaded by providing incentives for people to employ, such as the Russian government to build a train manufacturing setting up enterprise zones, creating an enterprise culture plant in the Urals in order to get state contracts, it and getting rid of other regulations. Noble Lords may ought not to have been beyond the wit and ingenuity not agree with that but, none the less, it is certainly a of Her Majesty’s Government to have secured a factory policy and is having some effect. As my noble friend in return for the £1.4 billion Thameslink order. The the Minister, who I welcome again to his position, failure to do so was a major failure of public policy reminded us yesterday, we saw the fastest rate ever of which must not be repeated with the forthcoming new business start-ups in the UK last year, with 1 million order for Crossrail trains. new private sector jobs being added to the economy So, my Lords, four stories. What are the lessons for since the election. This is all evidence of something industrial strategy? It is that the fundamental planks that is happening: the creation of an enterprise economy. of a modern industrial strategy are skills, technology, These businesses may not be the great oaks but they innovation, procurement, infrastructure, finance, and are the small acorns from which the great oaks will supply chains. We need a strong and dynamic private come in the future—of that I have no doubt. sector aided by a strong and dynamic state in all seven Looking at these stories, does that mean to say that of these critical areas. The state needs to act strategically, we have got everything right? Far from it; we have a not tactically. It needs to act overtly, not covertly. In very long way to go. I bring another thought from the short, we must end the negligence of the past and get north-east, of the Alcan plant at Lynemouth, where real about building an industrial base capable of delivering 515 skilled jobs went just last year— a decision which the jobs and companies that Britain needs for the was a body blow for that part of Northumberland. future. They went because of EU directives on carbon pricing, which are seeing the price that people have to pay per tonne for carbon in the energy-intensive industries 7.07 pm that are key to industrial output and manufacturing Lord Bates: My Lords, it is a privilege to follow the go up from £7 per tonne to £16 per tonne next April. noble Lord, Lord Adonis, who has great expertise in Then in 2020 they will rise to £30 per tonne. That kind these areas, and his contribution was typically thoughtful of decision, which has been taken at a European level, and thought-provoking. As he was recounting the is causing plants such as Alcan’s to be closed. Where painful experience of awarding the Hitachi trains order, does that industry go? Of course, some people sneer I could not help recalling that while he was Secretary and imagine that it has probably gone on in the of State he desperately wanted to make that order direction of Kazakhstan or China, or somewhere like announcement before the last general election. However that. No; it went to Canada, where they are building a other forces were at play and therefore it was with plant that will put the emissions into the same atmosphere. enormous pleasure that this coalition Government We need to get to grips with this whole area. Of actually made that announcement following the election, course, we need to tackle the environment and there demonstrating their commitment to the trains and the are massive numbers of jobs to be gained through industrial base. green energy. However, we need to be sensible about Telling stories is a very powerful way of communicating how things are applied lest we undermine the means essential truths, because in the north-east—which I that we seek. In this respect, my noble friend Lord know best—before the last election we suffered the Marland has a particular role to play, not only as a body blow of mass redundancies announced at Nissan, businessman but—this is a critical element—in coming the Hitachi order and then the closure of the TCP to his current brief within BIS from the Department blast furnace on Teeside. That was the final blow for for Energy and Climate Change. These are different the process industry struggling in that part of the pictures and there are different stories that we can tell, world. Since the election we have seen Nissan announcing but they suggest that we are perhaps beginning to new investment, taking on workers and expanding. We move in the right direction. Industrial output was up have seen the Hitachi order and even seen the blast by 2.9% in June, its fastest rise for 25 years, while furnace reopen. At a CBI dinner last week in Gateshead, manufacturing output rose by 3.3% in June, its fastest someone reminded me that eight major process rise for 10 years. To be sure, it does not mean that industries—there is a cluster around Teeside and they summer has arrived but it does perhaps mean that are often interdependent—had gone out of business spring has started. and into receivership before 2010. Of those eight, four had now come out of receivership and were employing more people than they were before. 7.13 pm I tell these stories because I think that they are quite Lord Hennessy of Nympsfield: My Lords, may I add important in demonstrating that I cannot in any sense my welcome to the noble Lord, Lord Marland, on his see that this Government have an industrial policy of new portfolio? I am sure that I was not alone this default rather than design. It may not be the design summer when tasting the special delights of the Olympics that others would actually choose, but it is certainly a and Paralympics in wondering whether there were design. It says that we want to make the United wider lessons to be drawn from the glories we were Kingdom the most competitive economy in the world witnessing. Our Olympics summer was a shining for setting up and running a business. That is the advertisement for what can be done through careful 991 Britain’s Industrial Base[LORDS] Britain’s Industrial Base 992

[LORD HENNESSY OF NYMPSFIELD] political consensus as possible. Every one of these planning and a fruitful public-private mix, plus the factors continues to merit acute attention and the energising effect of a wide and sustained political urgency is even greater in 2012 than it was in 1985. consensus in creating a remarkable collective enterprise. This is a post-Olympics task for our nation, which For those six lustrous weeks we were, to borrow from requires the better angels of our nature and much, Abraham Lincoln’s 1861 inaugural, much more. Would it help a little if here in your “touched … by the better angels of our nature”. Lordships’ House we found a way of deploying the sustained analytical application, realism and candour Such thoughts triggered in my mind a memory of needed to assist in the improvement of our economic 1985, when the one-off Select Committee of your performance? Might a standing Select Committee Lordships’ House on overseas trade reported under comparable to Lord Aldington’s one-off committee be the chairmanship of Lord Aldington—of which the way? I offer this suggestion at the risk of adding to committee the noble Lord, Lord Selsdon, was a member, that self-congratulation of which our critics accuse us, as was the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart of Swindon. I but we have in this House as rich a mixture of industrialists, was a journalist at the time and was struck by the financiers, scientists, technologists and economists as, urgency of the report’s tone. It struck me even more I venture, any legislative Chamber in the world. There forcibly when I reread it last month. The committee is no element of the condition of Britain that merits was appalled by the shrivelling of our industrial base, our sharpest attention more than the well-being of our particularly by the decline of manufacturing as a industrial base and the prospects for generations to proportion of our national wealth and by a growing come. overreliance on services. This is the sentence that left the deepest dent in my memory: 7.18 pm “A principal theme of the Committee’s report is that of the The Lord Bishop of Blackburn: My Lords, in my national attitude towards trade and manufacturing and their diocese of Blackburn, which covers most of Lancashire, principal recommendation is that it needs to change—and change nine years ago the claimant count for the subregion radically—if we are to avoid a major social and economic crisis in our nation’s affairs in the foreseeable future”. was 1.6%. As I prepare to leave office, I note that this figure has now nearly doubled to 3% of the working-age We did not and we have not. In 1985, manufacturing population. To put this figure into direct unemployment accounted for 25% of gross domestic product. In terms, it has increased from 4.7% to 7.8% in that time. 1947-48, my first year of life, that figure stood at Yet there still remains a dynamic and outward-looking 36.6%. By 2010, it had fallen to 9%. world-class aerospace industry that develops, manufactures and exports products throughout the world. It employs Much has been achieved in renewing our industries some 20,000 people directly. At present, it accounts and services since the mid-1980s. I am not this evening for 23.8% of Lancashire’s manufacturing jobs and has deploying what Edward Thompson called, nearly one-third of the total employment in GB aerospace. “the enormous condescension of posterity”, I am sure that your Lordships will understand my concern at the talk of a merger between BAE Systems to the work of far better men and women than me in and EADS. The impact of such a merger could have science, technology, industry and commerce, who have serious implications, not just for BAE but for the large applied themselves in the past to this problem and number of small and medium-sized enterprises that given it their absolutely best shots—far from it. I am support them in their work. I would be particularly also hugely sympathetic to the coalition’s industrial interested to hear of the possible impact of such a strategy, which seems to avoid both the excessive state merger, especially in view of recent developments. interventions of the 1960s and 1970s and the excessive The subregion used to be recognised as one of the loss of confidence in what the state could do as an major drivers in the industrial landscape of the country. enabler in the 1980s. I have great hopes, too, for the Sadly, that is no longer the case. Previous large employers review of competitiveness by the noble Lord, Lord have restructured and moved elsewhere, or closed Heseltine, which is due later this month, not least altogether. They have done that, in part, because of a because of my admiration for the powerful public-private lack of investment in better transport—that is, public mix that he brought to the regeneration of Merseyside transport, of course. I am sure that that is one of the 30 years ago. I share, too, the analysis of the noble major reasons. Lord, Lord Baker of Dorking, about our missed opportunities for transforming technical education Sadly, the National Infrastructure Plan 2011, since the exemplary White Paper on technical education announcing £30 billion of spending, does not fill me of 1956. with much hope for a rebalancing of the economy between the regions. The Institute for Public Policy I am, however, struck by the continuing resonance Research has analysed the proposals contained in the of the Aldington committee’s analysis of 27 years ago, plan and discovered that 11 of the 20 largest projects when its report laid out the interlocking and mutually benefit London and the south-east. Of the transport reinforcing changes that the UK needed to redress the infrastructure proposals, the effect is a spend of almost balance between manufacturing and services and to £3,000 per head for those living in London, compared achieve an enduring breakthrough in exports. These with a spend of just £134 per head for those living in included improvements in the levels of investment, the north-west and, I understand, just £5 per head for education and training, research and development, those in the north-east. It would appear that the competitiveness and the pursuit of a co-ordinated regional imbalances are set to continue for some time strategy for recovery resting on as high a level of to come. 993 Britain’s Industrial Base[9 OCTOBER 2012] Britain’s Industrial Base 994

I hope that as most of that spending on infrastructure Let us take transport. That is one area where we are will take place after the next spending review—although good, and we are good at railways. I was very moved it is interesting to note that 18 major transport when I saw that great steam locomotive during the infrastructure projects have already begun in London Queen’s Jubilee. I thought that perhaps we have not and the south-east, compared with just one in the run out of the ability to do trains. One project I got north-west—there is still time to redress that imbalance. involved in was the Chemin de Fer Transgabonais. I believe that my diocese and the whole north-west has When President Bongo came to London, what clinched much to offer the country by way of expertise and it was our suggestion that he might like to have a application. However, if we are to assist in the development locomotive named after him: “Le President Bongo”. of a vibrant, diverse economy, we do not need to be He said yes, provided that he could have another one shackled by lack of infrastructure. Sir Winston Churchill based on the iron maiden, La Vièrge de Fer, meaning famously said, “Give us the tools to finish the job”. I my noble friend Lady Thatcher. That triggered our ask the Minister to talk seriously to his Treasury building a railway. colleagues so that areas such as Lancashire, and indeed My noble friend on the Front Bench will know that the whole north-west, can be given the tools to encourage the same thing happened in water and sewerage, which investors. Not only will we in the north-west finish the were areas where we had great expertise in tunnelling job, but once again we will be the beating heart of the over the years. Often you would have to almost dig out economy. of his grave the engineer who had done it. I would talk to people aged 80 or more who had been involved with 7.23 pm the Crown Agents or one of the other development bodies that we had around the world. Lord Selsdon: My Lords, I always have great regard for anyone who gets on the train and decides to go If we are relying on foreign trade for a large part of round to visit his patch. That is because my great- our future economic growth, we should look at the grandfather and grandfather were chairmen of railway energy sector worldwide and the maritime sector—the companies and used to race each other to Scotland so water and the sea. I have already mentioned in your that they could get into the siding for breakfast. Therefore, Lordships’ House that, with the Commonwealth, we railways and transport have always appealed to me. have the longest coastline in the world. The coastline The noble Lord, Lord Hennessy, referred me to the of the United Kingdom is longer than the coastline of Aldington report. I have already mentioned in the India. That leads to shellfish because of the ins and House that that was rather frightening to be involved outs. If we then look at the dependent territories and in because we asked, “What happens when oil runs others, and the economic exclusion zones that apply out? What will the British economy be based on?”. around the islands, we see that we cover the largest I do not want to waste your Lordships’ time, but part of the sea under what you might call the British being a member of the Information Committee, I have flag. a duty to promote the Library. The Library has produced In looking at our future, I suggest that we must take a most excellent briefing pack, which many of your certain sectors and realise that we must not look only Lordships will not have seen because the Library is at this market; we have to look worldwide. Here comes not very good at marketing it. It covers most of the the intellectual property of the engineering brigade points that need to be raised. The first question we made up of those who were educated and trained here asked—because I am always among my intellectual and who trained others. An engineer from India trained superiors when I go into the Library—is: what do we here will go back to India, recall all that and have a mean by Britain’s industrial base? The CBI could not certain loyalty. More can be done by training our tell me. Nobody could tell me. Were we talking of a young people and people worldwide, sending them manufacturing base? Was industry manufacturing? back and keeping the relationship going. What about the service industries? I therefore wondered what the term applied to. We look, too, at the energy sector, which I find fascinating, and which the noble Lord raised. There is I looked again and thought that if we are to develop, not just the movement of tidal floods, there is also the we must accept what our economy is based on at the application of heat. We should look at where around moment, and a large chunk of it must be based on the world there are energy requirements and energy foreign trade. However, we have relatively small exports resources—not just fossil fuels. by manufacturers. We have a large export of services and we have a tremendous financial business that It is beyond my pay grade to work out how this often follows—as people have said, the star. happens, but people have said to me, “Look at the heat I always remember from my days when I had to do generated in the deserts. Look at heat transfer. Look Latin: at the pumping system. Look also at desalination”. One thought that came to mind during the Gulf War “Abstract nouns in ‘io’ call Feminina one and all. Masculin can only be things that you can touch or see”. was that if you wanted to bring a country to its knees, all you would have to do would be to let oil out into I like things and I do not like the internet—I do not the Gulf and block up every desalination plant. like all these communications where you have no physical manifestation. I do not like picking up the phone and In an odd way, infrastructure around the world asking a question to be replied to by somebody in a is one of our futures. We cannot afford to rebuild call station in the Philippines. I wonder whether we are our own infrastructure without having large orders. not moving too far away from the physical, on which I am enthusiastic about the future, but it must be our economy should be based. technologically led. 995 Britain’s Industrial Base[LORDS] Britain’s Industrial Base 996

7.30 pm Finally, we need to increase funding for innovation. Lord Bhattacharyya: My Lords, I would like to Here, again, scale is the issue. I recently returned from thank my noble friend, Lord Adonis, for securing this China, where I had discussions with senior ministers debate, and join others in welcoming the Minister to about their industrial strategy; I was hoping to set up a his new role. I declare my interest as the chairman of big company there. China is so concerned that the Warwick Manufacturing Group at the University of growth rate is falling to a mere 7% a year that it plans Warwick. to increase innovation spend by a third in the next five I have argued many times for a greater emphasis on year plan. China is also spending $160 billion on industrial and innovation policy in Britain. However, infrastructure alone, which will drive innovation in for 30 years, we did next to nothing. That was the transport and green energy. demise of British industry. Why did no one act? It was We have high-speed rail, of course, but even here, because past failures—bailouts, walkouts and closures— we seem to be frightened to take decisions. We also haunted Governments of all parties. We had White have good innovation programmes, such as the Papers about knowledge-based economies and so on, “catapults”, but budgets are small. As money is tight, but real support for industry was off the table. We now why not take an example from America? Could we not realise that without industrial growth, we will not put a small internal tax on government procurement, create the long-term, well-paid jobs the nation needs. and use the proceeds to fund small business innovation? However, we can do it. Since the financial crisis, Today, departments have to identify innovation needs Jaguar Land Rover has created several thousand new first, then find funding. No one wants to cut their jobs and apprenticeships. This is the sort of “industrial budget to fund innovation elsewhere, so not much renaissance” we need. It has happened; it has not happens. If the funding was set aside, this would taken a long time—it has happened over the last three create a “funding well” that everyone would go to. years. The leader of my party has had the guts to make Public procurement is over £200 billion a year, so even changing the structure of our economy his long-term a quarter of a per cent would give us real scale. priority. However, there are simple steps we can take That is four simple steps to help industry grow for together, immediately, that will make a real difference the long term by acting today. In the last three decades to our industrial future. I have often felt like a voice in the wilderness on First, Parliament has been saying since 1867 that industrial policy. However, I have brought some of the we have a skills gap, but it is still a significant issue biggest inward investors into this country. They are all today.One step forward would be to extend the university succeeding, because we have a lot of talent, a large technical college programme, championed so ably by skills base at the upper end, and because our science the noble Lord, Lord Baker, and my noble friend Lord and technology is second to none. Why is it that other Adonis. Currently some 30 colleges are being developed. companies can use these? Today the words “industrial What stands in the way of tripling that number? policy” are on everyone’s lips, which is most welcome. Next, I welcome the Government’s aim to increase But worthy talk means nothing without action. Now apprenticeships and my party’s proposal for giving is the time to deliver. funding control to businesses. Yet apprenticeships work best when business seeks out talent and offers 7.35 pm quality training in return, not when government simply gives funds for a particular programme, or even Lord Empey: My Lords, like other Members I welcome when a business does. Young people can tell which the Minister to his new role. He comes to the Department apprenticeships have prospects from make-work schemes. at a very critical time. I also thank Lord Adonis for Recently, GKN offered 30 apprenticeships and had securing this debate, because if we listen to even over 500 applicants. Scottish Power had 1,600 applicants today’s trade figures, we realise what a mountain this for 30 positions. We must help businesses to create country has to climb. more high-demand, long-term apprenticeships. To do Lord Adonis opened his remarks by telling a story so at low cost, why not extend the tuition loan scheme about wind turbines. May I inform him that in my own with student apprenticeship loans? We would create a home city of Belfast, Harland and Wolff shipyard pot of money that businesses could use to pay for now assembles wind turbines and works very closely college courses for their apprenticeships. The student with Siemens in building the transformers and power would decide if the apprenticeship was worth while; distribution systems that have to be at sea. We hope the training budget would help the business to afford that that will be a source of considerable economic apprentices; and the task of providing transferable growth. skills would lie with colleges and universities. This This country took a wrong turning in the 1960s and would also help to abolish the vocational academic 1970s, when contempt began to emerge for our divide, which we urgently need to do. manufacturing sector. It was true that British industry Next, we need to increase investment. For two years was disfigured by widespread strikes and became a now I have been fighting for a business bank. I am byword for how not to do things. Motor vehicles were delighted that the Business Secretary has announced the most obvious example of where things began to go such a bank. Yet the Government talk about a billion wrong, poor quality being the most obvious flaw. But in assets. A British bank needs to be operating at in Whitehall a view began to emerge that we could no £1 billion a year. Much of this could be found by longer make things that the world wanted to buy, so combining ineffective, small programmes and leverage we should move over to the service side. Finance, could be increased by focusing on reducing the risk of insurance, tourism and, later, IT were among the loans made by private banks. growth sectors. It was believed that the service sector 997 Britain’s Industrial Base[9 OCTOBER 2012] Britain’s Industrial Base 998 could make up the losses in manufacturing jobs that and spares would flow if those shareholders and HMG people would no longer need. Therefore they would were on opposite camps? The Americans may have no longer require apprenticeships but could be trained concerns over security of supply, but they also have for the white-collar jobs emerging, including a big commercial fish to fry; if they can find a way of surge in the public sector. A by-product of this thinking pushing BAE out of the US market, there will be more was the redistribution of jobs from the north of the to go around for US contractors. This is a very difficult UK to the south-east, something which still haunts us decision, and I hope that we get an early chance to today. debate these issues before irrevocable decisions are The massive increase in interest rates in the early taken. 1980s extinguished large swathes of our manufacturing As a nation, we must refocus on getting business sector. People were paying up to 22.5%. While much the skills to train internationally, and I hope that the of the sector was clearly uncompetitive, the rapid and Chancellor will see to it that there are fiscal incentives uncontrolled demise of such a large part of industry to favour those companies and individuals that create was regrettable and we still live with many of the wealth, rather than seeing them penalised for their consequences. The belief that we could survive in the entrepreneurship. modern world without making things that people here and in other parts of the world wanted to buy has 7.41 pm been shown to be wrong. Lord Giddens: My Lords, I also welcome the noble Traditionally, as an island nation, we have always Lord, Lord Marland, to his role, and I look forward to been traders of manufactures. This was our lifeblood many interesting debate with him. and we turn our back on this part of our history at our peril. The strength of any country’s industrial base I have been a practising social scientist for several comes from either the possession of large quantities of decades—a sign of a misspent life, one could say—and natural resources or from a highly skilled and motivated never before has the future of world society and the workforce with access to capital—or from a combination world economy seemed to me so opaque and of both. There is a growing realisation that we have imponderable as it does now. To me, this is not a ignored manufacturing for too long and that our recession like other recessions; it is an expression of ability to pay for our public services is inextricably much more deep-rooted forces that none of us at the linked to our ability to export more goods and tradable moment fully understands. When we look at manufacture services. Our trade deficit is running at about £40 worldwide, it is a big mistake to suppose that the billion a year—of which half is with China—and dominant force in the world economy is a simple urgent action is necessary. We cannot permanently transfer from west to east. That is happening, of rely on borrowing to sustain our lifestyles. course; in 2010 China became the world’s largest manufacturing country by output. Yet that simple People glibly say that the way out of our financial statistic conceals complex changes whose consequences difficulties is to “grow the economy”. Who says that are not at all clear—at least not to me. we are guaranteed a growing economy? What happens if the natural growth in world demand is met by Manufacturing output has risen sharply over the emerging economies? What happens if we have to rely past 30 years the world over, but the proportion of long-term on the current level of economic activity? jobs created has actually gone into reverse. Worldwide, The first thing that we must do is to ensure that we there has been a net reduction in manufacturing jobs hold on to what we have and ensure that it is fit for since 1990 in spite of the rapid growth of manufacturing purpose. in China and other emerging economies. When we see areas in the UK, the US or the EU where unemployment Ironically, as we speak, the future of our major is over 20%, this results as much from technological defence company is on the line with the proposed innovation as from a shift of manufacture eastwards. merger between BAE Systems and EADS, as a number In other words, the advance of manufacture is very of noble Lords have mentioned. The UK is number different from the creation of net new jobs. Moreover, two in the world in the aerospace sector, with much manufacture now takes place in global chains approximately 17% of world markets. I fully understand rather than in particular countries. As the FT journalist that defence spending is under great pressure here, in Peter Marsh points out, to be a star manufacturing the rest of Europe and in the United States, and the company you do not need to make anything, and the temptation to spread the load and the risk with this biggest manufacturers in the world do not in fact merger must be great, but this is one decision that we make anything. Rather, what happens is that the company must get right. Like many, I feel most concerned that co-ordinates a diversity of businesses in different countries. any defence supplier to Her Majesty’s forces should This is radically different from the past. not be subject to any political pressure from any other We are currently experiencing what Marsh calls, in Government, whether French, German or American. his book of the same name, a “new industrial revolution”. We have seen examples in recent years of how It is initiating an era of mass personalisation, much Governments differ. In Libya last year, the German more decentred than old manufacturing processes. A Government did not fire a shot in anger, and we recall good example is the firm Essilor, based in Paris. It is that it was a French Exocet missile that created havoc the leading maker of lenses for glasses in the world, for the Royal Navy during the Falklands dispute. making 100 million lenses, unique to each customer What would happen if HMG took a different stance —amazing—that are sold to 400,000 opticians in on a future conflict from either or both of those 100 countries. In order to do this, the company has a partners? How could we be sure that supplies of parts network of 20,000 computers in Essilor offices around 999 Britain’s Industrial Base[LORDS] Britain’s Industrial Base 1000

[LORD GIDDENS] Molson Coors, one of the world’s largest brewers. If the world. This is a totally different pattern of you need evidence of Britain’s continuing strength in manufacturing from the past, and we do not quite areas of manufacture, look no further than the brewing know—as social scientists, anyway—where it is leading us. capital of the world, Burton-on-Trent, the largest Against this backdrop, it certainly makes sense that brewer in Britain and one of the largest in Europe, we should build up and expand the UK’s manufacturing where we brew Cobra beer. base, but we have to do so in terms of the trends that I I am relieved that the Government have finally have been describing and to be very sensitive to them. woken up to the fact that we in Britain do not have a I have three brief points to make in working this balanced economy; we have let things slip. Agriculture through. First, although it is right to emphasise a is now barely 1% of GDP. In 1978, as we have heard, return to industrial policy—the new wisdom, as it manufacturing was 26% of GDP; today it is 12%. In were—it will actually have to be totally different from 1970, services accounted for 54% of GDA and the 1970s. It will not be a matter of picking industries manufacturing 40%; by 2009 services had increased to or of simple investment in infrastructure; if it is going 78% while manufacturing had declined to 17%. Does to work, it will have to be much more holistic and the Minister agree that the Government need to encourage involve large chunks of the economy and of government, manufacturing? and at the same time be highly flexible. That is a great We have not lost the ability to be the best of the best challenge. At the moment we do not really know how manufacturers in the world, particularly in advanced to do this and an awful lot of work will have to be engineering and design. I visited the Rolls-Royce Motor done, so loose talk about industrial policy should be Cars factory in Goodwood and was inspired. I visited avoided. the Rolls-Royce factory in Bristol and saw the engines My noble friend Lord Adonis mentioned renewables, of the Typhoon being built, and was inspired. Cobra is but they are very unlikely to create new jobs. It is no first and foremost a multiple award-winning manufacturer good just saying that they create jobs; they have to and I am proud of it—I am sorry to boast. Will the create new net jobs, but jobs will be lost in the older Minister admit that the Government are not doing fossil fuel industries as renewables come on track. enough to encourage innovation? First, we have had a New technology tends to destroy jobs rather than just short-sighted cut of up to 80% of teaching funding in creating them, at least in terms of net jobs. higher education. We have the finest universities in the Secondly, we have to be very careful about borrowing world along with the United States. Higher education naively from what appears to be current best practice—for is one of the jewels in our crown. How short-sighted is example, “Let’s be more like Germany”, “We need this eroding of our competitiveness as an industrial more technical skills”, “We need more apprenticeships” base? and “Let’s create the equivalent of the Mittelstand”. It Does the Minister agree that the UK Government is only 10 years ago that Germany was regarded as the are hugely underfunding and undersupporting R and D? sick man of Europe, and its status as a manufacturing The UK’s investment in research and development is country gained enormously from its membership of well below that of other advanced economies. Sweden the euro. A detailed study shows that Germany exited spends 3.5% of its GDP on it, Finland and Japan the euro, it would lose probably 40% of its manufacturing around 3.4%, Germany 2.5%, the United States around capacity competitively in world markets. One should 2.7% and the United Kingdom only 1.8%. Furthermore, reflect on that. according to the World Economic Forum, in skills Thirdly, we should not assume that current trends development, about which the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, are unilinear. I do not understand why people in this spoke, the UK workforce is 18th in the world behind country are not taking notice of the reindustrialisation Germany, Japan, Sweden and the Netherlands, to debate in the United States, which I have mentioned in name just a few. Yet I was privileged to write the previous discussions. The Boston Consulting Group foreword for Big Ideas for the Future, published by reckons that 3 million net new jobs in the US can be Universities UK and Research Councils UK, and I created by 2020, but these result from a reversal of the was proud to see that despite this relative underfunding existing chain transfer from west to east. The price of and underinvestment, British universities continue to oil, the need to protect patents and the rising costs punch well above their weight. This publication highlights of labour in China are likely to reverse some aspects of 200 world-beating, world-changing innovations coming the current trend of movement of manufacture from out of British universities throughout Britain, and not west to east. These are likely to be not in high-tech just Oxford and Cambridge. industries but in low-tech ones. That debate should be Are we doing enough to encourage students at pursued in detail in this country too. school to take up science and engineering? In 1949 an Eton biology master wrote in one his pupil’s reports 7.48 pm that he believed that he had, “ideas about becoming a scientist; on his present showing this is Lord Bilimoria: My Lords, I welcome the noble quite ridiculous … he would have no chance of doing the work of Lord, Lord Marland, to his new ministerial role and a specialist, and it would be a sheer waste of time, both on his part look forward to many future interactions. and of those who would have to teach him”. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, for securing I was delighted and proud today to see that at my this timely and indeed timeless debate. In fact, the old university, Cambridge, yet another Nobel Prize word of the day with regard to British manufacturing was won by that same Eton schoolboy, Professor Sir is “decline”. I declare up front my interest as chairman John Gurdon, still middle-aged at 79. In my book old of the Cobra Beer Partnership, a joint venture with age is 80 onwards. 1001 Britain’s Industrial Base[9 OCTOBER 2012] Britain’s Industrial Base 1002

Having been born and brought up in India, and as poorly. It is the agents and the middle men who are the founding chairman of the UK India Business served best. He also says that the structure of the Council, I have seen the enthusiasm with which Indian markets militates against long-term decision making. students pursue engineering. The Indian institutes of An industrial base is certainly a long-term project. An technology are more difficult to get into than Oxford, early task is to change the rules of the financial Cambridge, Harvard, Yale, Stanford and MIT combined markets so that stewardship becomes the business and multiplied by 10. There is the whole issue of culture of our industrial base. funding in British industry. The irony is that we have Let me turn to manufacturing. As the noble Lords, bailed out the banks, but the banks are not lending to Lord Hennessy and Lord Empey, explained, business, particularly to SMEs. I pointed this out to manufacturing has to be part of our industrial base. the Minister yesterday in the House and I remain We have strengths in manufacturing. We have some unsatisfied that the Government are doing enough to wonderful companies in the motor industry and make the banks lend to start-ups and SMEs. The aeronautics, and I am sure that the Minister will join Government need to encourage entrepreneurship and me in singing their praises, but are they part of Britain’s SMEs, and could institute so many more tax breaks industrial base? The majority are foreign-owned—owned and incentives for new business and businesses taking by global enterprises that are part of the global industrial on new employees, such as cuts to employers’ national base. They are of course committed to the UK, but insurance and NI holidays. Will the Government consider their concerns are global. this? We are very lucky to be outside the euro, and to be We must now see our British industrial base as part one of the most open and welcoming economies in the of the global industrial base. Globalisation matters. world. I was delighted today to read that in a recent These companies also see themselves as part of the survey, British companies felt less affected by red tape single-market industrial base. That is why the EU also than those in other countries featured in the survey. matters. But manufacturing itself is changing. New This is great news. However, in spite of our corporation manufacturing techniques and biological processes taxes coming down, our tax burden overall is still too make customised and small-scale local production high and unattractive to inward investment and to the viable, as my noble friend Lord Giddens explained. brightest talent. New materials are making products with new processes, The Government’s madcap immigration cap is sending and new technology is raising productivity to make out the wrong signals, not least by including student existing processes faster. This new technology and numbers in the overall permanent immigration figures, these new ways of looking at business are turning deterring foreign students. Does the Minister agree? I economies of scale on their head. All this has to be know that applications from India have been plummeting considered in assessing our industrial base. We have a and that students there are asking, “Does Britain want strength, with the Technology Strategy Board providing us?”. We need to attract the brightest and the best help, without undue commercial pressure, to find our foreign students, let alone the £8 billion that they way through these changes. The ability of the public bring into the economy and the generation-long links and private sectors to work together to convert ideas that they build with their countries, which can only into products and services must be part of our industrial help our global business reach. Foreigners make up base, as my noble friend Lord Adonis explained. Hand 30% of Oxford and Cambridge academics, and the in hand with this is the strength of our science base. immigration rules are affecting them. Does the Minister The Government tell us that expenditure on science not agree that this is madness and short-sighted? base is justified and will be maintained. This must be a strength, but is it true? We have so much going for us in this country. We have an industrial base that is still the best of the best We now learn that Government departments have and that has the potential to grow if we make it a cut their R and D budgets, and the details are in priority. I am delighted that the Government have today’s Financial Times. I am sure that the Minister finally woken up to this and I urge them to set a target has seen them. Perhaps he can explain what is happening that manufacturing grows as a percentage of GDP. It and the truth is. For a modern industrial base dynamics is manufacturing and business that pay the taxes that are important: business has to work in concert with create the jobs that pay the taxes that pay for our science. Cluster dynamics, or knowledge and innovation public services. It is our world-beating manufacturing communities as the commission calls them, are an that is crucial to keeping Britain’s competitive position important part of our modern industrial base. This is at the top table of the world. where a lot of the innovation comes from. You get a double benefit. If you create an innovative piece of 7.54 pm medical equipment the whole nation’s health benefits Lord Haskel: My Lords, I welcome the Minister to from this medical innovation enabled by this piece of his new job and also congratulate my noble friend on machinery. This double effect is one of the real benefits moving this Motion about industrial policy. In recent of having a modern industrial base built in this way. years so much of our industrial policy has been a The most important part of our industrial base debate about devaluation and copying others. Our must be our people, our human capital. In the modern industrial base must be built on our own strengths. We industrial base, so much of the so-called brain work is have to correct our own weaknesses. increasingly undertaken by algorithms and artificial John Kay’s report of 23 July points to our first intelligence, much of it to raise productivity. Our weakness. His diagnosis tells us that the financial strength will be to accommodate this and not fight it, markets in this country serve the business creators as described by my noble friend Lord Bhattacharyya. 1003 Britain’s Industrial Base[LORDS] Britain’s Industrial Base 1004

[LORD HASKEL] UK, as in other countries, and we have new high-tech Skills training will have to take a quantum leap. It is companies—in which I declare an interest as chairman the quality and the standard, not just the quantity, of a small high-tech company—but these institutions that will be relevant. This improvement must be are not the same as the technological base. The exception, continuous. If this is true, then our best and brightest perhaps, is Warwick’s engineering centre, which has will have to become our teachers. Our Teach First the roles of national technology base and university. scheme is a start, but we will have to move into a What is the future of our technological industrial higher gear. This uplift in skills will have to apply to base? There is no plan or even principle that one can everybody, not just to an elite, because, as my noble discern, and one asks whether the UK will become a friend Lord Giddens said, modern technology can major technological economy again. The evidence is destroy jobs as well as create them. Therefore, our that the greatest success comes through international industrial base must be based on an equal society, on collaboration. We are, in fact, part of Europe and one nation, because without a fair and equal social some of our major laboratories are now collaborations. base, our industrial base will be built on sand. One way of looking to the future is by looking at the market opportunities, such as aviation, in which we 8pm have Rolls Royce and Airbus. One of the interesting Lord Hunt of Chesterton: My Lords, I welcome this points about the 1960s—and I refer to the noble Lord, debate and thank my noble friend Lord Adonis for Lord Hennessy—is that there is a general statement introducing it. I also welcome the noble Lord, Lord that there were great mistakes about electronics and Marland, to his new role. He made a tremendous aviation. The French say that building Concorde was commitment to nuclear energy and I hope he has the essential breakthrough to persuade the Americans passed on the message to his successor at DECC. You that Europe could produce an aeroplane that flew cannot have all sweet—a little sour is necessary—so I regularly and safely to America, and that without have to remind him of when he got rather agitated at Concorde we would never have had Airbus. In Britain, an all-party meeting on energy-intensive industry and Concorde is often regarded as an industrial mistake, suddenly loosed off. He said, “The UK should become but in France it was regarded as the way to enter the the corner shop of the world”. We wondered about market. High technology enables you to enter markets. that as it was an unusual ambition, and one hopes he The other point of the House of Lords Committee meant the laboratory and workshop of the world. concerned why we have a very good software industry. That is what I want to refer to. The answer is Harold Wilson because he said that we Following the focus of the noble Lord, Lord Selsdon, not only had the white heat of technology but that we on national laboratories and technological centres, all wanted to have transputers. Nobody had ever heard of countries of the world have hitherto regarded them as them in the 1960s, but that was the basis of our an essential part of a technological economy, but not extraordinary software industry. That is the reason the UK. I worked in an industrial lab in the 1960s. At why governmental and department initiatives are that time, we had fantastic, world-leading laboratories important, as well as research centres. in electricity, gas, water resources, railways and hydraulics. They are all gone. Since the 1990s, we have lost the The other important point, which other noble Lords Royal Radar Establishment, the Royal Aircraft have mentioned, is that we must look forward to the Establishment and the United Kingdom Atomic Energy long-term needs which will have strong technology Authority. They all played an essential role in providing input. My noble friend Lord Adonis referred to advice and development, in testing new technology infrastructure for dykes, roads and buildings. The and in stimulating thousands of small companies. A extraordinary thing about the Netherlands is that they few national centres have survived, such as the National put them together and put windmills on their dykes, Physical Laboratory, the Laboratory of the Government which saves 40% of the cost of the windmills. We need Chemist, Cefas, the Building Research establishment, energy, whether wind or nuclear. This Government the Culham laboratories and, I am glad to say, the Met have been very strong in advocating space. We now Office. Youcan read about why the Met Office survived essentially have a government lab—it is a European and about its history in the House of Lords Library. government lab in Harwell—for making use of space. Looking forward, are we simply to rely upon industry However, a similar story also took place in the and universities to provide the technological base, or major industrial laboratories, which were world leading. should we reconsider establishing a new technological We had two major oil company laboratories, one in base, making use of them but, in addition, making use Cheshire and one in Surrey. I am glad to hear that BP of government resources? has now reversed its policy and is expanding its strength. We had amazing electrical engineering laboratories in Finally, I emphasise the importance of good graduate Leicester, Stafford and Essex. I remember an advertisement engineers, which other noble Lords have mentioned. I in the 1960s for English Electric laboratories. It said, was talking to colleagues this morning. The difficulty “Come and solve the Navier-Stokes equation and the in the UK is that we have some universities with an problems of fluid mechanics”. That does not happen extremely demanding curriculum producing extremely now. As other noble Lords have emphasised—but not good engineers, but too many schools and universities very many—we still have the world-class Rolls Royce do not have such a demanding level and German centre and its remarkable network of university companies say that they do not correspond to the laboratories. Its approach was very different from standards in Germany. In Germany, engineers are elsewhere, and other countries have copied it. It is true paid almost as much as lawyers. In Britain, engineers that university research has expanded greatly in the are paid half the salary of lawyers. Lawyers work 1005 Britain’s Industrial Base[9 OCTOBER 2012] Britain’s Industrial Base 1006 extremely hard at university because of the high pay at It was not by chance that we got nearly 400 apprentices the end of it. How are we going to solve that? I do not out of the Olympics; we got them because there was a know. I leave that to the Minister. demand on the companies. Similarly with Crossrail, we ensured that some 400 apprentices would emerge 8.07 pm from that. I cannot for the life of me understand why the Government do not understand the importance of Lord Young of Norwood Green: My Lords, I, too, demonstrating through their own contracts the creation congratulate my noble friend Lord Adonis on creating of apprenticeships. It is an area that the Government the opportunity for this debate. Given the complexity have to tackle. of the subject, it is a short period to try to deal with it. There is another way the Government could encourage I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Marland, on his apprenticeships. If they want more SMEs to participate appointment. I do not envy him trying to sum up this in apprenticeships, one of the key ways is through debate given the varying strands and the different more group training associations, the hubs that encourage advice that he has been given. Given the time available, SMEs to recognise that if some of the administrative I am going to focus on only one or two issues. and training burden is concentrated centrally, it becomes Skills are a key part of our industrial base and I much more attractive to those companies to participate want to draw attention to the importance of STEM in apprenticeships. subjects. My noble friend Lord Haskel mentioned the I am conscious of the clock, so I will wind up my quality of teaching in engineering, maths and physics. speech. I think it was my noble friend Lord Giddens My noble friend Lord Adonis was one of the promoters who gave us the global perspective, if you like. I did of Teach First. In trying to convince young people not know whether to feel cheered or gloomy at the end that engineering is an area worth entering, we need to of it, although he gave us some sage advice about the focus on the quality of teaching. great challenge of trying to create net jobs. I hope that There was lots of talk about infrastructure. I want when the Minister gives his reply, he will focus on how to concentrate on our broadband network, investing we are going to create more apprenticeships. in it and making sure that investment delivers and delivers on time, given the importance of broadband 8.13 pm investment in R and D and in all our industries. My noble friend Lord Adonis talked about the poor quality The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of the mobile network. Why is it taking us so long to for Business, Innovation and Skills (Lord Marland): My introduce 4G? By the time we get round to introducing Lords, my wife said to me in the car as we came down it, 5G, which is on the horizon, will already be with us. from Birmingham that this was going to be a very Given my interest in skills and apprenticeship, I interesting, high-quality debate. As always, my wife is want also to focus on apprenticeships. A variety of right. I am very grateful for the support of my noble advice is coming to us on apprenticeships. I am not friends Lady Garden and Lord Gardiner, who are sure that I completely agree with my noble friend Lord obviously showing their trade at skills very early on. Bhattacharyya on how we should fund them, but their importance should not be underestimated. My noble Lord Giddens: I thank the Minister for allowing me friend Lord Adonis told us of his experience of companies to speak. I find it interesting that there are no women saying to him, “We were looking for 86 apprentices taking part in this debate. Perhaps one thing we might out of 1,500 and we could not get them”. That comes do is encourage more female entrepreneurs—viz, your back to the quality of teaching and ensuring that our wife. best young people understand that it is worth going into engineering. That is fundamentally important. My noble friend Lord Bhattacharyya reminded us Lord Marland: My wife does not need any that the number of applications for apprenticeships encouragement, but I am sure she will be very grateful. vastly exceeds those available. Demand exceeds supply I thank the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, for making enormously. My noble friend gave his example and the this debate available because this is a massive challenge example that I normally give is British Telecom. It has for the country, for the Government, and for those of some 300 apprenticeships and it gets something like us who have to set about the challenge. What came 25,000 applications. through to me about this debate was how passionate The number of companies offering apprenticeships we all feel about the future of British industry, British is still pitifully small—only a third of the FTSE 100 manufacturing and Britain plc. We have a lot to do companies. Somewhere between 4% and 8% of companies and we can all play our part. If we have passionate are actually offering apprenticeships. They are a good people who want to be involved, that is very good. deal, so how do we encourage the creation of The noble Lord, Lord Adonis, summed it up by apprenticeships? I hope the noble Lord will address in saying that we have been negligent in the past. That is his reply why the Government are not demonstrating true, and it is not just the previous Government but by example and by their own leadership. When they the Government before that. As has been referenced offer government contracts, they should ensure that by the noble Lord, Lord Bilimoria, the present apprenticeships and training are a key part of those Government have inherited a reduction of manufacturing contracts. We did that in the previous Government, output from 22% down to 11% in the past 20 years. and it is interesting that the noble Lord, Lord Hennessy, Why has that happened? It is because there has been a in his contribution referred to the Olympics—I cannot lack of investment, as has been referenced, and a lack remember the wonderful quote from Abraham Lincoln. of competitiveness, which we need to reverse. 1007 Britain’s Industrial Base[LORDS] Britain’s Industrial Base 1008

[LORD MARLAND] has been at the forefront of that as he has been at the However, it is not the end of the world. Years ago, forefront of the excellent Tata company, for which we as the noble Lord, Lord Hennessy of Nympsfield, are very grateful. reminded us, 92% of the activity in this country was in As the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, put it, we can all agriculture. The right reverend Prelate mentioned the go round the country finding examples of good news industrial output in Blackburn. My family on both and bad news, and he gave eloquent examples of each. sides were involved in Ashton-under-Lyne, of all places, The most important thing is to support the bad news and further south in Manchester in the cotton stories and turn them into good news stories and that manufacturing industry, in Lancashire Cotton. Now is the job of government. I am grateful to my noble look at that industry; it has changed out of all recognition. friend Lord Bates for pointing out that all is not lost. As has been referenced by many noble Lords, including We have 1 million new jobs in the public sector and the noble Lord, Lord Haskel, we live in a global world 450,000 businesses have registered with Companies with fast-changing global dynamics, where Britain has House in the past 12 months—the highest figure since been at the forefront of moving with those dynamics records began, so there is a platform for starting this and changing our economy into a diversified economy, change of emphasis. Both the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, which, of late, has become overdependent on the and my noble friend Lord Bates mentioned— financial sector, and we are licking our wounds from that overdependence. Lord Giddens: I thank the noble Lord for giving We have also failed to store the benefits of our way. Could he also give an analysis of the businesses prosperity for a rainy day. So many other countries do that have closed down? so, such as Norway, which has a marvellous, sovereign oil fund and so much of its oil profits have gone into Lord Marland: I cannot take too many questions as those oil funds. I shall never get through my speech in the 12 minutes We have to redress the mess and we intend to do so. which have been allocated, but I think the figure is It will not happen overnight. Nothing does happen about 290. However, we can give the noble Lord exact overnight. This is a big country where we need to figures later. change things. People have got used to a way of life The noble Lord, Lord Hennessy, talked about having that has revolved round a very munificent European a Business Select Committee. That is a very good idea. purchasing economy and that is now changing as that There is, in fact, a BIS Select Committee and a Lords economy goes into the doldrums. The Government inquiry into SMEs. One of the initiatives that I have are at odds with the noble Lord, Lord Bilimoria, in the undertaken is a trade representatives programme sense that we believe businesses do better when government appointing specific trade representatives for specific does less. We also believe that people do better when countries. This will be announced by the Prime Minister government does less. That is why it is important for in the not-too-distant future. We need to look at government to set a framework for business and allow initiatives as regards how we can review trade. I am business to take things forward with the right initiatives very grateful for that suggestion. and incentives, which I shall come to later. However, The right reverend Prelate referred to the British we cannot hold the hand of business. We can take it to Aerospace and EADS merger. We think that we will the trough but we cannot make it drink. know more about that tomorrow evening. Therefore, I The corporation tax plan that the Chancellor has think he would not expect me to talk about that at this outlined, which takes corporation tax down to 22% by point. We regret hearing that he will not be with us for 2014, which will make it the lowest in the G20, is a real much longer. We wish him every success. His contribution incentive for business. Our Red Tape Challenge is was extremely beneficial. being looked at very closely by this Government with The noble Lord, Lord Selsdon, talked about energy a view to reducing 1,200 red tape regulations. We have and the rail infrastructure as being key areas of revolutionised our UK trade and industry department development and I cannot but agree with him. I have with a very outward looking, purposeful export drive. already mentioned the noble Lord, Lord Bhattacharyya, Export is the key to our growth recovery. That is why, who has so much experience and knowledge of this as I referenced earlier, I have done 25 country visits in area and feels deeply about the need to enhance our the past 10 to 12 months. The noble Lord, Lord skills to provide a platform from which we can emerge Green, has carried out some 43 such visits. The Prime into growth. Minister always takes a large delegation with him The noble Lord, Lord Empey, talked about trade when he goes on overseas visits because without an and manufacture. He talked very interestingly about export drive we will not get growth. Northern Ireland, of which he has great knowledge. I Time does not allow me to go through all the take on board everything he says. The speech that the various schemes that we have put together. However, noble Lord, Lord Giddens, made was an immense noble Lords will know that we have the regional tour de force. I compliment him on it and I totally growth fund, the Plan for Growth, mentoring schemes agree that the holistic view has to be taken and that we and schemes to develop education and skills, a lot need to consider globalisation. I am not going to be of which I mentioned at Question Time yesterday. able to deal with all the questions the noble Lord, In manufacturing alone we have the Advanced Lord Bilimoria, raised. I make the offer to him and to Manufacturing Supply Chain, the Manufacturing all noble Lords that I will be happy to discuss any of Advisory Service and the high-value manufacturing this at a later stage or at further debates. The noble Catapult Centre. I applaud the excellent work of our Lord, Lord Haskel, again talked about globalisation colleague, the noble Lord, Lord Bhattacharyya, who and he is absolutely right. The noble Lord, Lord Hunt 1009 Britain’s Industrial Base[9 OCTOBER 2012] Britain’s Industrial Base 1010 of Chesterton, reminded me of the need for laboratories want to deal with. We have design and technology of but, again, all is not lost as Sir John Gurdon has been the highest quality, architecture, accounting, agriculture, rewarded for his expertise. oil, defence, aerospace, digital music, motor cars. For The noble Lord, Lord Young of Norwood Green, the first time in many years we are exporting more cars talked about broadband. Broadband is fundamental; I than we are importing. We have insurance, strategic was discussing it with the Minister responsible today planning, medical, education, et cetera. We are a world- and urging him that we should move on further. As a class country which is looked upon with huge favour Government we took the initiative to sell G4, which by the world. I invite all Peers who feel as passionately we are in the process of doing. It takes a while but it as I do to support and champion business as we try to was an initiative I am proud to say our Government get ourselves out of the economic problems that noble took part in. Lords have all very kindly addressed. With that I thank all noble Lords for their contribution. We have a world-class country. All of the countries I travel to want to do business with Britain. We are in the top three of any countries in the world that countries House adjourned at 8.26 pm.

GC 405 Arrangement of Business[9 OCTOBER 2012] Education: Further Education Colleges GC 406

encouragement, so that these communities are, in the Grand Committee words that the Prime Minister used to describe his vision of the big society, Tuesday, 9 October 2012. “free and powerful enough to help themselves”. As in other areas, the coalition’s aims have been to Arrangement of Business free up the college sector from the micromanagement Announcement and centralised control that dominated their lives in the first decade of this century and to give their 3.29 pm leaders the space, flexibility and discretion to shape their own futures within broad parameters. One of The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Geddes): those broad parameters was that they should better My Lords, before we commence, it might be for the serve and be answerable to their communities, not convenience of noble Lords if I remind them that each only to employers in terms of local skills needs—although debate is limited to one hour. If any of those debates this is a very important priority—but also to individuals should take less than one hour, the Grand Committee in the community in terms of opening up new will adjourn for the balance of that 60 minutes. In the opportunities and raising, and helping meet, aspirations. first debate, there are a large number of speakers and I This is important because, as all the research shows, have been asked to remind Back-Bench speakers that positive outcomes from education in turn promote speeches are limited to four minutes, which means that health, happiness and a sense of well-being. when it says four on the time clock, that means that you have had the four minutes. In our report we suggested that one of the keys to success was for colleges to work in partnership with other organisations, to link up with employers, charities, Education: Further Education Colleges local authorities, police, youth offending teams, health Question for Short Debate services, Jobcentre Plus and all kinds of organisations. In many cases, both partners gained. It was a win-win situation in which colleges were fulfilling their primary 3.30 pm role of promoting and extending learning and skills Asked By Baroness Sharp of Guildford among young people and adults while at the same time, for example, providing youth facilities which To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment helped limit crime and anti-social behaviour; or providing they have made of the potential contribution of adult learning, which gave older people or ethnic further education colleges to their local economies minorities a sense of purpose and fulfilment far more and communities. effectively than any local authority friendship service or mental health therapy could do. We coined the term Baroness Sharp of Guildford: My Lords, I asked for “dynamic nucleus”, because our vision was of colleges this debate because I wanted to draw attention to a at the heart of their communities, acting as a catalyst report which came from a commission that I chaired and sparking off a whole range of such shared activities. last year looking at the role of colleges in their I sometimes use the analogy of a Catherine wheel: the communities. Our remit was to investigate the role that college is at the centre but sparks off all kinds of other further education colleges, activities. There was potential, we argued, to unlock “social energy”within the community which, if channelled “can and do play in their communities and the added public value they can bring to these communities as leaders of learning”. to positive ends, could increase both economic and social productivity. You will see that this remit reflects the title that has been given to this debate and I am delighted that so Two important factors underpin this vision. The many people have put their names down to speak in it. first is leadership. In visiting many colleges in the I am only sorry that it means that they have so little course of the inquiry, I was impressed by the inspirational time to speak. leadership to be found in the best of them. These It is worth starting with some statistics. There are people were not just competent administrators; they 347 further education colleges in England. They serve were entrepreneurs and creative thinkers, prepared to a total some 3 million students, 1 million aged 16 to try out new ideas, take risks and perhaps, above all, 18 and 2 million aged 19 or over. They offer an find ways of getting things done. In part, such leadership immensely wide range of courses, from basic numeracy is innate, but it can also be learnt by example and by and literacy through to graduate-level studies. In subject training. It is vital that we nurture such leadership and matter, they range from agriculture to Zen Buddhism. prepare to train more to take up the challenge. I pay The communities that they serve are widely diverse: tribute to those in the sector who recognise how important they provide for black and white, rich and poor, public training and CPD are in improving the quality of and private sector, employers and employees, helping teaching and the learning experience for all students. young and old alike to gain and enhance their skills The second factor is to make sure that these leaders and education, and providing pathways to further and are given the scope to be creative and entrepreneurial. higher education and better jobs. We learnt early in Last year’s Education Act gave colleges a good deal the commission that there is no such thing as a typical more autonomy, which was a move in the right direction, college—each is very individual —but the best of as is the move by the Skills Funding Agency away them stand out, reaching deeply into the communities from the detailed funding formula to the single adult that they serve and providing leadership and skills budget. We argued, however, that if colleges GC 407 Education: Further Education Colleges[LORDS] Education: Further Education Colleges GC 408

[BARONESS SHARP OF GUILDFORD] it not sensible for there to be a link-up between a were to be expected to “seed” a whole lot of new college’s careers service, which advises those who take activities, they needed greater flexibility on the funding college courses, and those referred to the NCS by front. In particular, we argued for what we called an Jobcentre Plus? Is co-location of the two services not a innovation code: a funding formula that, subject to good idea? Why should it not be pursued? proper audit procedures, would allow up to 25 per I will end by reiterating the general thesis of the cent of the adult skills budget to be used to meet local report: there is considerable potential for colleges to priorities. play an active role in promoting growth, prosperity In many respects the Government’s White Paper and well-being within their local communities, but the published last year, New Challenges, New Chances, greatest benefits come from working in partnership provided a very positive response to our recommendations. with others, be they employers, the public sector or In particular, John Hayes, then the Minister responsible voluntary organisations. The more we can do to encourage for skills and adult education, shared our vision of such partnerships, and to encourage organisations to strong, entrepreneurial colleges. There are many good be innovative and creative in forming them, the more things happening. Both the SFA and Ofsted recognise we are all likely to benefit. and will be looking for evidence of community involvement and responsiveness to local needs. The 3.40 pm community learning trust pilots are going ahead. The Baroness Wall of New Barnet: My Lords, I want to new foundation code of governance comes into play thank the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, as I am sure this year and looks to accountability to the college’s will many other noble Lords, for the opportunity to “wider community” and an annual statement of public debate this important issue. More and more FE colleges value. I am immensely encouraged by the support that are recognising and understanding the importance of has been forthcoming from BIS, the department with their role. I also congratulate the noble Baroness on primary responsibility, and by what is happening on the interesting report she produced in November last the ground among the colleges themselves. year and associate myself with at least two of the I do, however, have a number of quibbles, and I findings that she has just covered: certainly on the lack would be grateful if the Minister could respond to of flexibility in the funding, but equally on the careers these. First, I am very disappointed by the interpretation service, which has gone from multiple opportunities to of the innovation code. Although we were delighted a single website, which people find less inviting and that New Challenges, New Chances picked up the idea, more remote. we should have read the small print more carefully, for I know the work of many FE colleges across the what is being proposed, which has now been further country and could describe some of their initiatives developed in the guidance recently issued by the SFA, but want to concentrate in the short time we have on provides only very limited flexibility. Indeed it limits the Liverpool Community College. This is the only FE that flexibility to using funds to meet specific skills college in its home city. I was introduced to the college gaps that have been identified with local employers by EAL, the awarding body whose qualifications are a and where there is not at present an appropriate key part of the college strategy to help local people qualifications credit framework—QCF—qualification. into work and offer employers what they need: a pool The college may use funding from the adult skills of skilled, motivated and well-rounded workers who budget to research and provide the course while a live and work locally, affecting the local economy and suitable qualification is developed. However, this is far bringing added value to their community. from the idea of encouraging creative and innovative Seeing the emergence of green technologies in the thinking to seed new projects, often to be run in region, the college has benefited from the interest partnership with others, which might in due course be many young people have in gaining environmental developed into such a qualification, but where securing qualifications, which they see as work, and quality of funding from, say, the ESF or the localism budget life and community improvement opportunities. This might be more important. learning is inside and outside the college, involving This in turn raises questions about the whole students and out-of-work residents, raising awareness management of the skills budget and the development of how everyone can make a difference locally. People of localism. There is at present a fuzziness, it seems to are involved in some very impressive projects throughout me, about where responsibilities lie. Who, for example, the city, as this qualification has spread itself further is responsible for identifying and initiating responses afield. to skills gaps? Is it the LEPs—on which, incidentally, The city has two famous football clubs. I want to colleges are still badly under-represented—or core refer quickly to the joint working between the team I cities? What is perceived to be the role of the employer support, Everton Football Club, and the college, which ownership pilots? Where, if at all, do local authorities are working with local employers, opening up fit in? opportunities for hard-to-reach residents. The success My third and final quibble concerns the emphasis of their current project is already making a big difference we put in our report on the benefits of partnership. I both economically and culturally by giving participants ask the Minister whether enough effort is being made a stake in their community. Individuals, young and to put joined-up thinking into the local agenda. Take, old, unemployed—people who have been looking for for example, the development of the National Careers work for ever—really love to go to the club, not only Service. While no one disputes the need for good to get fit but to work around the business there, and information, many of those seeking careers guidance the economic and green environment is really part of want not just the website but face-to-face guidance. Is the way in which that project is working. GC 409 Education: Further Education Colleges[9 OCTOBER 2012] Education: Further Education Colleges GC 410

Lord Geddes: Perhaps I can advise the Committee Dundee College also links into the highly effective very briefly. The electronics have gone. Therefore, Scottish Creative Loop, and Skillset, the sector skills noble Lords will have to exercise their mathematical council for the creative arts, to give employers and abilities and deal in multiples of four. students the best information and support. This is happening not just in Scotland, nor just in the creative sector. Whether it is specialist healthcare pathways, Baroness Wall of New Barnet: I will conclude, if I heritage construction skills or skills for the financial may. I was so inspired when I looked at the number of sector—wherever you look—many of our FE colleges colleges that I could talk about today by just how are playing an essential role in providing the new much is going on. Like the noble Baroness, Lady specialist skills needed for UK plc to grow out of the Sharp, I want to share the fact that more of this could recession. happen if we just had that flexibility and encouragement I agree with my noble friend Lady Sharp that FE that we are seeking. colleges need to be represented on local area and economic partnerships as well as work closely with 3.43 pm sector skills councils. They certainly need more flexibility with funding routes. My one regret is that the message Baroness Brinton: My Lords, I also pay tribute to is not always known, even by funding bodies and the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, for securing today’s government agencies, let alone by many employers. debate, but she has done much more than that. She While the burden to celebrate and develop this excellence has championed the sector for decades, and her most rightly remains with the FE sector, let us help them recent role, as chair of the independent commission, sing it from the rooftops because it is key to our has shown how she really understands what the sector country’s future. already does and what it, government and employers need to do in the future. 3.47 pm Our further education colleges are the hidden gem of our education system: the breadth of teaching and Lord Bilimoria: My Lords, in 2005 I was appointed learning that they cover, the large and varied number chancellor of Thames Valley University, now the of students that attend, and—key for today’s debate—the University of West London. At that time I was by far importance and relevance for our local economies and the youngest university chancellor in the country. Prior communities. The noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, spoke to that I had been on the board of governors of TVU about the strategic position of further education in the for five years, and I saw first-hand the unique contribution UK today. With only a brief time to speak, I want to that a modern institution like TVU was able to make focus on how FE colleges work within specific sectors. to education. In many ways, it was the other end of the spectrum of traditional universities, such as my old If our universities are sometimes described as the university, Cambridge. TVU was able to reach people brains trust of Britain, the FE colleges are certainly and teach courses that Cambridge could never dream of. the engine room that provides people with the right skills at the heart of the economy. My young hairdresser, One of our mottos at TVU was “Further and Harry, went to West Herts College at 16 and for three Higher” because it provided both further education days a week was apprenticed to a salon which worked and higher education where students had the opportunity closely with the college. Three years on, he is a confident to come in and study quite often a vocational FE and skilled hairdresser who has benefited from both course and then had the option of moving straight arrangements. He is now employed by the same salon, into employment with that qualification and knowledge, which has been delighted with him. The key has been or to stay on, study more and move into higher the partnership between student, employer and FE education and graduate with a degree. In fact, the very college, with the college as the dynamic nucleus to successful community colleges in the United States, which the commission refers. His route is one that we which were based on two-year courses, have historically might expect—the bedrock of providing key skills for enabled students who were unable to go to university all local economies, whether hairdressing, plumbing, to engage in post-secondary education and, if they catering or construction. had the will and were able to, to progress on to universities and obtain undergraduate degrees. I also want to applaud the teaching and learning for more specialist sectors. For example, in Dundee, over I would like to ask the Government what measures the past few years a real economy in digital technology they are taking to provide students of further education has emerged, quite specifically in digital games. Forget colleges with opportunities to progress to universities Pac-Man, we are talking about the dark arts of highly and to top-up their FE qualifications to graduate. Are complex technical computing skills as well as artistic they encouraging formal links to be made between FE and performance art. Working with local, usually very colleges and neighbouring universities? At TVU we small, creative companies, Dundee College has developed were able to provide this under one roof, which made a number of courses at varying levels to help provide it much easier. I have seen the power of education: this growing and increasingly profitable sector with once people’s eyes are open to it and they are on that trained staff. That includes using professional standard ladder, they want to learn more. Are we providing facilities, providing good practice-based skills for essential enough opportunities for our people to do this? entry-level technician jobs, while at the same time I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, for initiating preparing students well for moving on to honours this debate, and for her commendable report on putting level work right at the cutting edge of technology and colleges at the heart of local communities. American creativity. FE colleges are called community colleges because GC 411 Education: Further Education Colleges[LORDS] Education: Further Education Colleges GC 412

[LORD BILIMORIA] from Derby College in my own diocese, and then raise they are meant to be accessible to their local communities. three issues that we could look at more seriously. Basically, there should be opportunity and accessibility The college is rising to the challenge of the report in for school leavers, particularly now that the Government terms of inspirational leadership, entrepreneurship have made it mandatory for children to continue education and partnership. Its first core purpose is to develop until the age of 18, and for adults who want to engage individuals. The second is to support economic in FE for the first time, quite often part time, as well as development. The third is to contribute to community for those who want to learn more to improve their cohesion and social action. It takes individuals and prospects or to change their tack, at the community’s puts them in an economic and community framework: doorstep. that is its core purpose. There are 30,000 learners, of At TVU we worked very closely with the businesses whom 7,000 are full-time. That is a lot of people in and the communities surrounding our campuses. However, one city in the network. the Government have put in harmful cuts to adult There are exemplary partnerships with local industry. education. Will they admit that adult learners will be Recently an engineering careers academy was set up. deterred by the fact that they will now be expected to New apprenticeships were launched this year to meet take out loans to fund their further education? Is this the needs of local employers. People are working very the way the Government want to encourage our workforce hard in that area. to get skilled? In the community there is citizenship training through Our FE colleges provide so much vocational training national citizenship projects. Particular needs in Derby that is desperately needed to improve the skills of our are met. Sadly, we have problems with the sexual workforce. We have a skills shortage in this country. exploitation of young people. The college is designing The Government’s apprenticeship schemes are great programmes to reach out and help young people and and laudable, but does the Minister agree that others in the community think about that. There are apprenticeships can be greatly enhanced by attending very imaginative schemes using art and working in FE colleges as well and gaining qualifications in a care homes with older people. In terms of economic formal setting? At TVU, the London School of Hospitality engagement and community involvement, there are is one of the jewels in our crown. It is one of the best some very impressive things. hospitality and catering schools. We created a course I will flag up three issues briefly. One is funding— with Buckingham Palace for butlers and valets. The predominantly government funding. The college is students gain work experience in the palace, as well as doing all it can to look for new income streams and to attending classes at the London School of Hospitality. be more efficient, but if we are going to maintain the They have on the job, on the ground training, as well very rich resources that we are developing and grow as the benefits of being in a college environment. them in the way that the report suggests, we need to I see that the report of the noble Baroness, Lady look at a suggested framework for resourcing this kind Sharp, recommends ways of helping SMEs with of enterprise. Could we do some common thinking apprenticeships and consultancy support. Will the about that and look at a common suggested framework Government support this? We talked of FE colleges for resourcing? If we allow each project to struggle working with the local community. A few years ago in with small local deals, we will return to the old world Hounslow, Gillette closed down its famous factory of projects that last for a few years and then run out and moved to eastern Europe. TVU helped train and and have to be renegotiated, with a lot of wasted reskill the redundant workforce so they could be energy. The Government and others could help with a re-employed. suggested framework for resourcing. The Government are removing the educational The second thing was alluded to by another noble maintenance allowance. Students will now be deterred Lord. These colleges need to be engaged with LEPs from pursing full-time further education from the ages much more strongly than they are. The pattern is very of 16 to 18. Do the Government not think it is patchy across the country. In Derby the college is not important that we should encourage our children in involved with the local LEP. That is to its detriment that age group to be full-time students, and that this and to that of the LEP. will harm them? Finally—noble Lords would expect me to say this—the In conclusion, Britain’s greatest strength is its people. report does not mention the importance of faith British education is respected around the world. Our communities. In the mix of what community life is universities and those of America are the best in the about and its potential for energising new citizenship, world. However, to be able to compete in particular faith communities are increasingly important in providing with the rising powers of China and India, we have to that energy. I hope that in this sector there could be prioritise education and skills and support further encouragement for that kind of engagement. education, both in modern universities like the University 3.54 pm of West London, and in the form of local FE colleges, integrated into their local communities. This is key to Baroness Warwick of Undercliffe: My Lords, it is our country being able to compete in the future. excellent that the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, has secured this debate, and I add my thanks to those already expressed for her commission’s incisive work 3.51 pm last year investigating the role of further education The Lord Bishop of Derby: My Lords, I, too, thank colleges in their communities. As the former chief the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, for giving us a chance executive of Universities UK, I cannot emphasise to look at this area. I will briefly draw on a case study enough the enormous importance of further education GC 413 Education: Further Education Colleges[9 OCTOBER 2012] Education: Further Education Colleges GC 414 to higher education, particularly at the local level. It the Minister will tell us whether the Government will remains my passionate belief that all who can benefit now take up the commission’s recommendation that from a higher education should be given the opportunity up to 25% of colleges’ adult skills budgets should be to do so; and for a huge number of people, whether made available to meet locally assessed needs. FE school leavers or mature learners, that opportunity colleges really can change the lives of those failed by comes via their local FE college. It provides accessible schools, who have lost jobs or who need a change of routes to HE for thousands who might otherwise not career. FE colleges at their best should be at the very benefit, and who then bring their enhanced skills and heart of their local communities. their ideas back into the local community. But the “HE in FE” role is perhaps not as widely 3.59 pm appreciated as it should be. The higher education that Lord Shutt of Greetland: My Lords, I commend my is delivered in FE colleges is often local employer-led. noble friend Lady Sharp on the work set out in her Half of all foundation degrees are now taught in report and, indeed, on initiating this debate. Let me colleges, and students are much less likely to come declare my own interests. In 1973 I had the privilege of from families with a tradition of higher education. FE being appointed as a governor of the Percival Whitley colleges have been key to improving access to higher College in Halifax. We later changed its name to the education for disadvantaged or under-represented Calderdale College. I served for almost 25 years until groups. Ethnic minorities, for example, make up 21% 1998, including 19 years as chair of that body. I recall of students in colleges compared with 13% of the believing at the time that the only constant thing general population. Nearly a quarter of young, full-time about FE was change. It is now 14 years since I first degree entrants to colleges come from stepped down, but I commend the present regime and neighbourhoods with low rates of participation in congratulate it on its continued role. It has had recent higher education. This is more than double the rate for enhancements to facilities, and is currently involved in all such entrants starting at universities. a £6 million building enhancement programme. To take another example, a group I have spoken It was my original intention to speak on governance, about on previous occasions are children coming out but I need to speak a little more about FE in Calderdale. of the care system. They remain one of the most I want to be certain that Calderdale is still well placed under-represented groups in further and higher education, to contribute to the local economy and community. It although some modest improvement has been made has come to my notice that one of the local secondary over the last few years. Research by the charity Buttle schools is hoping to open an alternative college in UK has shown that FE colleges are the most common September 2013, which will replicate some of the work route for care leavers into higher education. Yet the that the college is engaged in. Now, the circumstances National Care Advisory Service says that up to a third are these. Competition is okay, but—at FE level— of leaving care services have been forced to scale back Bradford is 10 miles away from Halifax, and Huddersfield provision because of budget cuts, despite rising numbers is rather less so. Burnley and Rochdale, at the other of young people requiring support. Can I put in a plea end of Calderdale, are very near to Todmorden, too. to the Minister that she can reassure us that even the So there are alternatives. It is always right that there is modest gains we have made are not lost and that care an alternative in case faces do not fit. leavers are not left further behind? Also, in the period 2013-19, the projected population Further education colleges offer people the opportunity, of those who are 16 to 19 will reduce by 8%. There is a on their doorstep, to gain skills and qualifications that consultation going on, in accordance with Section 10 meet local economic and social needs. The commission’s of the Academies Act 2010, but that consultation report rightly emphasises the importance of partnerships looks like motherhood and apple pie. I ask the Minister in ensuring that FE colleges can meet the whole spectrum whether the Secretary of State for Education specifically of education and training needs of local communities. considers demographic trends, existing education and But they need support, and it is regrettable that recent training provision and value for money when deciding pressures on budgets have seen some partnerships face whether to approve an application to open a free difficulties as funding, for example for lifelong learning school for 16 to 19 year-olds. I also ask how far in networks, has come to an end and there is now a cap advance of the provisional opening date of a free on student numbers. school for 16 to 19 year-olds the Secretary of State A core area for all FE colleges is providing undertakes his statutory duties under Sections 9 and 10. apprenticeships. I applaud the innovative development I very much see the point of a free school where of apprenticeship training associations where the colleges there may well be lack of provision and potential themselves, not the SMEs, become the employers, and numbers are on the rise, but now I am doubtful about everyone benefits. I hope that the Minister will tell us that. A free school is one thing, but there seems to be what the Government are doing to popularise ATAs an absence of free money about. Clearly, there is some as a cost-effective way for SMEs to take on apprentices detail in what I have been asking and I would be very around the country. happy, if the Minister cannot deal immediately with what I have said, to see that in writing. Finally, we know from the commission’s findings that FE colleges make the greatest contribution where 4.02 pm they can provide courses and qualifications that meet local need, providing local people with skills. This Lord Jones: My Lords, as the Times first leader requires, above all, as almost everyone else has said states today, the question of where this country stands and the commission itself emphasised, flexibility. I hope in the world economy remains. How will it make its GC 415 Education: Further Education Colleges[LORDS] Education: Further Education Colleges GC 416

[LORD JONES] is 67 miles away and 50 minutes by train, but because way in the world and respond to the competitive it is quite a long way away the cost of that train pressures from the East? When I began my parliamentary journey is quite high. I am pleased to say that, since life in the constituency that I represented, we had three the Liberal Democrats took minority control in great manufacturing industries, 10,000 jobs in textiles Northumberland, students can now get their train and 13,000 in steel. Today, we produce no steel and no fares to Newcastle paid. textiles. These cyclical manufacturing industries fell Northumberland College in Ashington delivers some prey to competitive pressures from the East. courses locally—mainly trades and other practical I am very glad that the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, skills involving some of our excellent local tradesmen. chose this debate. I am convinced that FE colleges There are some good apprenticeship courses, but the will help to buttress and develop what remains of college does not do any A-level courses. As a town we British manufacturing industry. FE colleges are at the have a very low skills base and we have low levels of heart of reskilling and retraining the British economy. take-up of further and higher education. It is difficult Deeside College in north-east Wales stands alongside to get the exact figures for Berwick because the last the third great industry that I mention: aerospace. Government reorganised local government in This magnificent college helps one of Europe’s greatest Northumberland and we now just have figures for the companies, Airbus, to retain world leadership in civil whole of Northumberland, which do not reflect the aerospace. Airbus employs nearly 7,000 people in north- very great differences between the north and south of east Wales. Deeside College trains Airbus apprentices the county. Again, I cannot get the exact figures—I to a high standard. The Airbus factory in north-east used to be able to get them from Berwick Borough Wales produces the wings of the iconic, world-famous Council—but we have almost the lowest average wage giant jumbo, the A380. The FE college’s engineering in the country. Those who leave Berwick for higher department brings the apprenticeships to world education tend not to come back, as there are few job standard. opportunities locally. The Airbus director is Paul McKinlay. The college Many in Berwick have been working to try to principal is David Jones. The training manager is Gary improve FE provision with a view to getting some Griffiths—the greatest trainer, arguably, in Britain. higher education opportunities as well. Under the This collaboration of college and factory guarantees Labour Government, I supported local efforts to bid prosperity for the north-west and for north-east Wales. for the programme for more universities, particularly This collaboration ensures British paramountcy in the for communities such as ours that are a long way from immensely demanding and fiercely competitive sphere higher education. Despite being the furthest from of technical manufacturing. College and factory guarantee higher education in England, we were unsuccessful. an industrial future for Wales and the north-west. Local efforts have not been helped by local government I believe that investment in FE colleges will enable reorganisation and the demise of One North East. We Britain and Wales to emerge more quickly from thought that various sites and buildings owned by the debilitating recession. I believe that FE colleges as a local authority and One North East might provide the trainer are Britain’s medium-term answer to the great possibility for a college. I regret to say that, during crisis that western nations face. I see our universities as 13 years of the Labour Government, there were no the long way forward, but no praise can be too high new college or school buildings anywhere in north for FE colleges in Britain today. Northumberland. Travel to colleges elsewhere is expensive and takes time, as I have indicated. It is not helped by the fact that the A1 in north Northumberland is still a 4.05 pm single carriageway, despite dualling to the south and Baroness Maddock: My Lords, I, too, congratulate to the north over the border in Scotland. my noble friend Lady Sharp on securing this debate I have two questions for the Minister. Are the and on her report, which everybody has appreciated Government aware of gaps in FE provision such as this afternoon in their contributions. The report clearly those in north Northumberland? What opportunities shows the importance of further education colleges in are there now for the development of an FE college in their communities. It concludes that an FE college is our area embedded in its community and providing embedded in its community in almost every town and the benefits so clearly set out in the excellent report of city in England and Wales. However, where I live, in my noble friend Lady Sharp? Berwick-upon-Tweed, we are not in that happy position. That is in stark contrast to the situation when I lived in 4.09 pm south-west Hampshire and was chairman of governors at Brockenhurst College, which at that time was, I Lord Young of Norwood Green: My Lords, I, too, think, in the top three. congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp—although My purpose in taking part in the debate is to I was tempted not to, just in the interest of time. This highlight the very low level of FE provision in north is a bit like speed-debating on a serious and complex Northumberland. We are at the heart of a very rural issue. I also congratulate her on her report, which had area with a sparse population. We have one high the benefit of being succinct as well as interesting in its school with a sixth form in the town. The next nearest analysis. high school is at Alnwick, 30 miles away, or one hour The noble Baroness’s timing for this debate is right by bus. The nearest college is at Ashington, which is too. Ed Miliband’s speech, at a certain conference that more than 50 miles away and one and a half hours by I was at last week, focused on the important issue of bus. There is, of course, a college in Newcastle, which skills and training. He also set out a clear vision. GC 417 Education: Further Education Colleges[9 OCTOBER 2012] Education: Further Education Colleges GC 418

A Britain that recognises high-quality skills training is I am conscious of the time and do not want to just as important to our modern economy as academic incur the Committee’s wrath, so I will conclude with qualifications. Our concern about the Government’s just a couple of quick points. As I said, lifelong approach to education and training relates to its learning and upskilling of our workforce is central inconsistencies. Michael Gove wants to bring back to producing a modern, high-wage, flexible economy. two-tier academic exams—but I will not pursue that I agree with the points made about the importance of issue any further now, in the interest of time. However, the careers service—it is not good in its current form. we think that that is an antiquated view of education I also agree with noble Lords who made the point in the light of the needs of a modern economy. about FE colleges being better represented in local We believe that we need to meet the challenge of enterprise partnerships. As for the idea of the every young person staying on until 18 by making dynamic approach, when I looked at the diagram I maths and English mandatory for all and creating a thought for a minute that the Liberal Democrats new gold-standard technical baccalaureate. I would be had embraced nuclear power—but then I realised interested to hear the Minister’s attitude to that proposal. that it was just a metaphor. Nevertheless, it is a good I was pleased to see that the noble Lord, Lord Baker, one. welcomed it. We must once and for all get rid of the perception 4.15 pm of vocational qualifications as somehow second class—an Baroness Garden of Frognal: My Lords, I thank my attitude which I think persists. If I have one criticism noble friend Lady Sharp for initiating this debate and of the report it concerns the comment about colleges for raising such an important matter. The House has opting, benefited many times from my noble friend’s knowledge “to retreat to the low-risk areas of 16-19 provision and and experience of the further education sector. Her apprenticeships”. report, A Dynamic Nucleus, has provided a seminal contribution to our understanding of the pivotal role When I read that I thought, “Hmm, they’re not always played by further education colleges in their local low risk”. One of the problems with apprenticeships economies and communities, helping millions of young is, unfortunately, that there are some examples of people and adults to gain and enhance their skills and low-quality apprenticeships that undermine the brand education. Both the quality and the number of value that we have spent a lot of time trying to restore. contributions that we have had to the debate today I do not say that in an attempt to score any points, I indicate just how seriously we take it in this Chamber. think that it is a really serious issue. I think that One of the other things touched on by my noble friend apprenticeships are currently getting the attention and was the fact that FE promotes well-being, while the merit that they deserve, with more and more companies right reverend Prelate mentioned the promotion of actually treating apprentices, when they finish their citizenship and social engagement. Those are factors apprenticeships, as though they were graduating. That that we must not neglect in the role of further education is what we want to encourage. colleges in the community. We have concerns about the Government’s record. The report celebrates the work that colleges up and The noble Lord, Lord Bilimoria, talked about the down the country are doing to support their communities scrapping of EMAs and the trebling of tuition fees. and employers and sets out clearly the challenges and Support is being withdrawn for people aged 24 and opportunities for the further education sector, local over who are taking A-level equivalent courses and partners and commissioning bodies, as well as central above—that is level 3 and higher, which includes government and its agencies. At the heart of the apprenticeships. Loans of as much as £4,000 are also report’s recommendations is a recognition that there being introduced for FE students. We cannot help but needs to be a shift away from accountability upwards feel that that will act as a deterrent at a time when we to the Government to outwards to college communities, want to encourage more retraining, more reskilling learners and employers. This view is central to the and lifelong learning. Government’s further education reform plan, New I do not have the opportunity to pick up all the key Challenges, New Chances, published in December last points made today but I endorse many of them, especially year. I join in the tributes paid to the Minister, John the point made by my noble friend Lady Warwick Hayes, who has been working with us on these issues about ATAs—I would be interested to hear the Minister’s for a long time. response on that—and the point about group training Through these reforms we have stripped back the associations, which are a key part of encouraging number of intermediary bodies that had flooded the more companies to offer apprenticeships. The UK’s further education system. We have removed top-down track record on that is still abysmally poor. Only about targets and prioritised funding on those who need one-third of FTSE companies offer apprenticeships, it the most. Learner and employer demand drives and only 4% to 8% of companies offer them. That is the system as funding follows the learners. Through an abysmally low figure. The Government are failing the Education Act 2011, we have also removed restrictions to lead by example by not ensuring that apprenticeships and barriers around college governance. I know are a key part of the contractual liability when government that these are issues close to the heart of my noble contracts are let. We did that when we were in power friend and, indeed, to many others who have and that is why we ended up with nearly 400 apprentices spoken. Colleges are now able to consider different, in the Olympic contract as well as with another 400 in innovative delivery models and partnerships, including Crossrail. I cannot understand why the Government joint models with academies and universities, and do not want to go down that particular road. mutualisation models to offer greater choice and GC 419 Education: Further Education Colleges[LORDS] Education: Further Education Colleges GC 420

[BARONESS GARDEN OF FROGNAL] debate today—core city regions and local authorities. diversity to learners and employers. Perhaps I may To do this, they will assess local labour market needs, pick up this point in connection with the remarks agree skills priorities and shape their local skills offer made by the noble Lord, Lord Bilimoria. In addition, to support local economic development and growth. we have responded to the Public Accounts Committee’s Leeds City College has a particularly strong link with concerns about the level of bureaucracy in the the local area: the chair of governors is also the chair system, with a comprehensive cross-government of the local enterprise partnership. It seems to be a simplification plan. By delivering this plan, we seek very happy arrangement. significantly to reduce the red tape faced by colleges All this work means that colleges need to be ready, and providers. and supported, to respond to the reforms—and the Many of the recommendations in the report were sector is stepping up to the challenge. For example, for the sector itself to deliver, including sector bodies, the Association of Colleges report, Thinking and some progress has been made. In respect of those Outside the College, provided guidance to support recommendations for the Government, we have supported continuous improvement in community engagement and actioned them all. In order to support effective and accountability. Many colleges have participated in planning, the Skills Investment Statement 2011-2014, the work undertaken by NIACE on community curricula. published last December, set out budgets for two The 157 Group is leading on work looking to the years: an indicative budget for the 2013-14 financial future at what colleges and providers will need to year alongside the actual budget for 2012-13. In addition, adapt to the changing needs of learners, employers resulting from my noble friend’s report, the Skills and communities. I pay tribute to the AoC, NIACE Funding Agency launched the Innovation Code to and the 157 Group for the tremendous work that they enable colleges to respond rapidly and flexibly to local do in this area. business and employer needs and to meet current and I will pick up on one or two points made in the emerging skills gaps. I have noted what my noble debate. The issue of local enterprise partnerships was friend said about the feeling that that has not been raised by my noble friend Lady Sharp and others. The implemented in the way and to the extent that she primary role of LEPs is to articulate and raise employer envisaged in the report. What I can say is that the demand for and investment in skills. They work agency is planning a communications campaign for collaboratively with a wide range of interested bodies November 2012 to promote the code with colleges and in their areas, including local authorities, which play a other training providers. This is under review and we very important part in this, and independent providers. hope for comments under that consultation to come In core cities and in London we provide city regions back and inform it. The noble Baroness, Lady Warwick, with targeted funding to support collaboration with mentioned the point about 25% of colleges’ annual local providers. adult skills budgets being devoted to locally assessed priority needs. In fact, the Government’s recommendation My noble friend Lady Brinton, the noble Lord, is that there should be no target for this; it should be a Lord Bilimoria, and others raised the issue of funding. more flexible provision. In a time of limited resources it is critical to prioritise investment where the impact will be maximised. That For the sector, the report called for greater involvement has been towards individuals who would not otherwise of employers and the local community in the design have undertaken training and where market failures and delivery of the curriculum. There are some terrific are strongest. We focus full government subsidy on the examples of colleges working with their communities young, on those lacking basic English and maths skills to develop their learning offer. We heard about some and on the unemployed. We have also protected the of them today. The noble Baroness, Lady Wall, talked £210 million a year budget for informal adult and about what is happening at Liverpool with green community learning. I think we would all agree that technologies and so on. There are other examples. that is a very important part of the offer. Hull College Group uses local groups and forums to develop its learning offer and to shape the organisation. The noble Lords, Lord Bilimoria and Lord Young, Barnet and Southgate College targets its learning offer mentioned the possible impact of loans on adults. The to families in disadvantaged areas by working with introduction of loans repayable on the same basis as regeneration groups and faith groups. I stress to the those for higher education will maintain access to right reverend Prelate that faith groups come into advanced and higher-level learning for adults aged these projects, and rightly so. Local libraries also 24 and over. We will monitor that to ensure that there come into the work of Barnet and Southgate College. is no disadvantage in the system. Derby College’s Employment World supports adults The noble Baroness, Lady Warwick, and the noble to enter or re-enter employment, again working with Lord, Lord Bilimoria, talked about the progression employers. from further education to higher education. FE already Colleges are working to deepen their engagement provides 40% of new entrants to higher education, with their communities and employers and are becoming hosting around 180,000 students on HNCs, HNDs, more transparent about their performance and future foundation degrees, apprenticeships and other entry-level plans for meeting the needs of their communities and qualifications. Many colleges have long and established employers. They are stating these aims most clearly. I track records in offering level 4 and above. However, know that colleges and providers recognise that they some of this was neglected in the past. need to do more to foster effective working relationships I noted the reference to TVU. I come from that part with local strategic bodies, for example local enterprise of the world and remember when it was a high-ranking partnerships—they came up from time to time in the catering college and how much the provision was GC 421 Education: Further Education Colleges[9 OCTOBER 2012] UK Trade and Investment GC 422 incorporated within the university. I was fascinated to UK Trade and Investment hear that students were working in Buckingham Palace, Question for Short Debate but I am not sure how many apprentices Her Majesty can take on. Obviously it is a very good route for those 4.30 pm who choose to go that way. There is provision to support learners following the Asked By Baroness Liddell of Coatdyke ending of the EMA scheme and to target that funding more appropriately. My noble friend Lady Brinton To ask Her Majesty’s Government what progress mentioned hairdressing and plumbing. When I has been made in improving the performance of started work at City and Guilds, I dealt with UK Trade and Investment in relation to small and hairdressing qualifications and I have great admiration medium-sized enterprises in the United Kingdom. for those skills. The work that is being doing with digital technology in Dundee is definitely one of the Baroness Liddell of Coatdyke: My Lords, I am very skills of the future. grateful to have this opportunity to raise the issues in The noble Baroness, Lady Warwick, mentioned this debate, which I asked for quite a long time ago. I care leavers. That is a very important area that we need did so after hearing the Minister address a business to look at in all sorts of respects, in particular their breakfast on UKTI. Two things struck me. First, there ability to go on and have fruitful lives, as the records of were great similarities in some of the things that he care leavers are currently woefully below those of said in his speech to what I said 10 years previously others. The other point raised by the noble Baroness, when I was doing his job. Secondly, we do not get and by the noble Lord, Lord Young,concerned colleges anything like enough opportunity to discuss this issue, helping SMEs through the ATA. particularly in the troubled economic times that we I am conscious of time. My noble friend Lord Shutt are in. mentioned the proposal of the Maltings 16-19 free SMEs are great drivers of the economy but they are school. If I may, I will write to him on the specific going through a particularly difficult time. From the points of that case, but it is out for consultation at the beginning I say that I am a friend of UKTI, but I am a moment, so he will be able to feed into that consultation. critical friend and am not yet 100% certain that we The noble Lord, Lord Jones, raised, quite rightly, the have the delivery mechanisms in place to address some issue of manufacturing and how further education is of the issues that are essential to the growth of SMEs, very well placed to support manufacturing. This is both in exporting and in operating within the domestic certainly an area that the country will need to increase economy. in order to pull us out of the recession. Let me begin by paying tribute to the Government My noble friend Lady Maddock raised the issue of and to the GREAT campaign. I have been a great fan, Berwick. We are publishing a report with Defra on to coin a phrase, of cross-government working in community learning in rural areas, considering issues relation to foreign direct investment. I have often felt such as transport, class sizes, rural broadband and so that we missed a trick in not bringing together the on. Several of our community learning trusts are British Council, VisitBritain—in which I have a registered based in or include rural areas, as acknowledged in interest as a director—and UKTI to promote what Defra’s recent report. My noble friend and, indeed, Britain is and what Britain is good at. In the run-up to my noble friend Lady Sharp mentioned the National the Olympics and the Paralympics, the GREAT campaign Careers Service. I regret that I do not have more was an enormously good showcase for the values of time to go into that but I hope that I can write to Britain as well as for its skills, design and capability. I them on that matter and where there are gaps in that should like to ask the Minister what will happen to funding. GREAT now that the Olympics and Paralympics are This is a new and exciting phase for further education out of the way. What will happen to the money? Will colleges, and their communities and employers have GREAT go on? Will the money be continued? Or, will high expectations of them. I am confident that colleges everyone huddle back in their silos, keeping well out of will meet those challenges head-on and continue to the way of the traffic, in case they dare to talk to one deliver a rich and diverse choice to their learners, another at any point in the future? Those of us who employers and local communities. I believe that the travelled internationally and saw the GREAT posters quality of this informed and incisive debate has and material in a lot of international airports realise contributed to the issues that we will all need to what a powerful advocate it is for the UK. address and bodes well for the future of this particular I have a long interest in working with entrepreneurs sector. I once again thank my noble friend Lady Sharp seeking access to international markets. I suppose that for securing this debate and thank all the noble Lords I am a poacher turned gamekeeper in that I ended up who have contributed on this important issue. as a head of mission. I have worked directly with UKTI and have to take some responsibility for some The Deputy Chairman of Committees: I commend of its failings as well. One of the big criticisms that is all noble Lords on their amazing temporal self-discipline. made of UKTI—I am not 100% certain that it is We have finished three minutes early. The Committee justifiably a criticism—is that it is biased towards big stands adjourned for three minutes. business. It is difficult to envisage a situation where UKTI would not get behind big business. The scale of 4.27 pm some of the projects that are either for export potential or for foreign direct investment is so overwhelming. It Sitting suspended. is easy to work with big business because it is structured GC 423 UK Trade and Investment[LORDS] UK Trade and Investment GC 424

[BARONESS LIDDELL OF COATDYKE] there is no getting away from that. The cost of in such a way that it is easy to interrelate with it. We administering a venture operation in a small business are always told about the great advantages to SMEs of is sometimes much higher. It is easier to get £50 million, the supply chain. sometimes, than it is to get £50,000. That needs to be I say to the Minister that a camel can go through addressed, and we need to find a route to do so. I the eye of a needle easier than a small firm which does would like to know how this new service that would not have an international name can get into the link companies is actually going to work. procurement department of a major multinational. I was interested in the Secretary of State, Vince There is a body of work within what used to be called Cable’s, announcement last week about a new banking the DTI—it must be about 10 years old now—that facility using the Co-operative Bank and the Unity looked at the supply chain in the oil and gas industry. Trust Bank. That was interesting, as it is not one of Some of the best technology that exists in that industry the big banks. I should declare an interest as a life-long has grown out of SMEs, yet the best closed shop in the co-operator with an account in the Co-op Bank. One world is multinational procurement. It makes the BMA of the problems with the banks is that small businesses and the Law Society look like a bunch of amateurs. It are terrified of them, first because they often do not is critically important to get the people with the ideas get the money, and secondly because of the pernicious and the ability to develop the business before the guys system of personal guarantees. If you want money in the big businesses who actually buy those things. I from a bank you can put your granny up as collateral. think that that is an area that UKTI does not devote I think of the number of deals that I have lost because enough time to. Not all of it is about spending money; a husband has gone home to the wife and said, “I have some of it is about knocking on doors. Some of the got to put the house on the line”. If my husband came clever and influential people who gravitate towards home and said that to me, I would chase him. It stands UKTI, I would suggest, should turn their minds to to reason that if you are asking people to take significant how to make that supply chain work more effectively. I personal risk, you are limiting the prospects that are do not like the idea of SMEs taking scraps from the available for them. Many people go to informal investment. table, but if you run an SME—and I have run an I pay tribute to Business Link in bringing in business SME—you really would do anything to get your foot angels. in the door in that kind of context. Time is running on, so I will jump very quickly to In this, I feel that I am criticising some of my dear another area. Can the Minister give us some idea of friends. There are issues about the commercial acumen how the defence and security organisation is settling in within UKTI. Some of it is because of the nature of as part of UKTI? That is a very difficult area for an organisation whose staff rotate every four years, SMEs to crack. Often they need a guy with all the gold particularly with Foreign Office staff. You can get braid on him just to get in the door of a Government somebody who is a brilliant Arabist or an expert in who might be in the procurement business. The annual hard languages running a UKTI operation. I know report is very coy about how DSO is doing. If the Minister that 400 staff have had commercial awareness training can give us some information, I would be very grateful. but, frankly, nothing concentrates the mind more than In my last few seconds I will say to the Minister that seeing the whites of the eyes of a customer who will there is one area in which officials will say I am out of maybe take their business elsewhere. It is hard to teach date—but I have checked and I am not. UKTI is people commercial awareness. I know that proposals probably the most bureaucratic organisation under have come up, year after year, about secondments into the sun. I have worked in many organisations but business, but it is very easy to second somebody into never in one that is quite so bureaucratic. Will the Rolls-Royce, BAE or GlaxoSmithKline. It is very difficult department look again at the bureaucratic structures to second somebody into Joe Bloggs’ widget makers. I of UKTI? There are good people there trying to do a often think that that kind of white-knuckle experience very difficult job. Let us make it as easy for them as is missing from some of the experience in UKTI. possible. I know that there have been considerable changes at the top. UKTI appeared before the Select Committee 4.40 pm on SMEs not so long ago. I have never quite graduated Lord Cope of Berkeley: My Lords, I am delighted on to a Select Committee; I am a new girl in here. that this debate is taking place. I thank the noble However, I notice that it was pointed out that 75% of Baroness, Lady Liddell, for instituting and promoting the new managing directors come from the private it. The timing, however it has come about, means that sector. Can the Minister tell us if any of them have its chimes well with our work in the Select Committee ever grown a company from start-up, or if they have on small and medium-sized enterprises and exports, come from a business that is not AIM or FTSE listed? which I have the honour to chair. Our remit is rather The psychology is very different. I notice from the wider than this debate. We are concerned with all the annual report that there is great emphasis on attracting Government’s work to support SMEs in exporting. overseas venture capital. The best venture capital in We are interested not only in UKTI, on which this the world is about six stations from here on the Jubilee debate has focused—which is fair enough; I am not line. One of the problems with accessing venture capital criticising it—but on UK export finance and the is that the risk profile of an SME is different. There is Government’s role in deregulation, tariff negotiations, no opportunity to spread risk in the way that you can tax issues, procurement policy and so on. with a major company, as I found out when I referred The Government can help through diplomacy over to this in my maiden speech along the corridor and tariffs and other restrictions on trade, as well as by was summoned in by 3i. There is a venture capital gap; their purchasing policies, and by Ministers actively GC 425 UK Trade and Investment[9 OCTOBER 2012] UK Trade and Investment GC 426 promoting trade, as the Minister does so energetically We have to recognise that many SMEs either cannot around the world. I hope that I am correct in saying be helped by the Government or do not want to be that the promotion is for SMEs as well as for large helped by the Government or anyone else. After all, as businesses such as those mentioned by the noble Baroness. far as many of them are concerned, the whole point is Commentators write about the difficulty of exporting to do their own thing. In some cases, people are trying manufactured goods, for instance to India, because to do something differently from what they did when labour there is cheaper. They do not often mention they worked in large firms and so on. Nevertheless, that there is usually a 30% to 40% tariff barrier to be others want reassurance that it is all possible—it is overcome. The same is true in Brazil with many goods. possible to create a business and to export to difficult That is also a great part of the difficulty that the countries around the world. The fact is that it is possible. Government can help with by their energetic diplomacy We have already come across some remarkable stories to try to get free trade. of SMEs doing business and exporting. Britain needs SMEs to flourish and particularly to export. We need Our committee published a call for evidence before to stimulate more potential entrepreneurs and to try the recess and received a large volume of responses to help them when they want to export. UKTI has a from organisations, companies and individuals, including very important job looking after the interests of the academics working in the field. We and our staff are entrepreneurs, the people who work for them, their busy going through them—as the noble Lord, Lord customers and, of course, the UK itself. Haskel, who is a fellow member of the committee, will confirm. We have also started taking oral evidence. 4.47 pm We are in the middle of a series of visits to different parts of the country to meet SMEs of every size and Lord Cotter: My Lords, I would like to start with kind, and next month we plan to visit Brussels and the talk. I seem to remember a recent advertising Germany. slogan, “It’s good to talk”. How do we do that, when it comes to business? I believe that too often from the Visiting companies and organisations in the recess, beginning of the current crisis we have heard talk and looking through the evidence as it came in, I was about austerity and cuts. Austerity and cuts were struck again by the variety among SMEs. It is something emphasised long before they started happening. I think we must always remember when we talk about them. that that was negative talk, which had quite an impact Variety is one of the essential facts about SMEs. They on business. The continued talk about cuts and austerity, come in all sizes, and very different dynamics drive not balanced by talk about growth and going forward, them. They are in all kinds of business. We are very has been a negative aspect. I hope that the Minister, conscious that they are in every sector. We will not be whom I welcome in his role, will consider that point. It able to ignore the food sector, for example, because the is not just for the business department to talk positively noble Lord, Lord Haskins, is on the committee and he about this; it is for the Treasury and others as well. We will see to that. Nor can we ignore the creative sector need to correct the deficit but, as I say, we need the because we have the noble Lord, Lord Grade, as well. positives. If successful SMEs have one characteristic in common, I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Liddell, on it is above all that they are problem solvers. They do securing the debate today, which is about trade and not let difficulties stop them. If they do not have a investment. The Government have made a start with can-do attitude, they simply do not succeed. That does the Britain Open for Business initiative, in which there not mean that government in its various forms cannot are many encouraging ideas. I hope that the Minister, make life easier for them, if only by getting out of the later in the debate or at another time, will talk about way. Positive help by Government for SMEs has existed the implementation of that. We need continual monitoring for a very long time—since before I was small firms of progress. Minister in the Government of the noble Baroness, I take on board the point made by the noble Lord, Lady Thatcher, 25 years ago. These days, of course, Lord Cope, about the need for publicity, so that people much of it is channelled through UKTI, but it also are aware of what help is available. A recent FSB comes from local enterprise partnerships, chambers of report said that, in the case of UKTI, only 6% of commerce and so on. I will not comment directly small businesses were engaged. Out of those 6%—it today on the work of UKTI, as we are in the middle of may be wrong, but that is what was said—83% were our evidence taking and deliberation, but we are interested encouraged by their contact. I take on board the point in, for example, whether the criticism made by the made by the noble Baroness, Lady Liddell, about noble Baroness—that UKTI is too big business- concerns that too much is directed towards big business oriented—is valid. rather than small businesses. On publicity and the Nor do I want to comment today on the role of UK need for people to be aware of what is available, I export finance with respect to SMEs, which is developing know, having been in small business, how little time we once more after a period in which it was not. I look to have to consider, when we are thinking about how to my noble friend the Minister for reassurance that his survive, what else is available out there. I say to the colleagues in government take SME exports as seriously Minister that, in lots of different ways, publicity is as I know he does. I hope that he will also set out what needed, direct or otherwise, to ensure that small businesses UKTI is doing to reinvigorate its pitch to SMEs. As know that there is something out there that can really far as I can see, too few of them know of the help that help them. they can get from UKTI, either directly or sometimes There is a need for us to be welcoming in this indirectly, channelled through other organisations, such country and for Britain Open for Business to actually as the ones that I have mentioned. mean something. In this connection, I again go back GC 427 UK Trade and Investment[LORDS] UK Trade and Investment GC 428

[LORD COTTER] importance and social value of SMEs. I believe that to the talk, and to what is said and what happens. I there is some statistic that shows that some two-thirds hear quite often that foreign firms and investors have of UK school leavers would have their own business if great difficulty in getting visas for key staff, more so they could, whereas the figure is less than one-third in than in most countries in the European Union. We France. I do not know where that statistic came from, need to look at that and see whether it is correct. If it is but I heard it some time ago. correct, we need to look at it very carefully, because it A propos the strange remarks of the Chancellor does not take much bureaucracy and red tape for yesterday, I should add that SMEs are not here as a someone coming from overseas to feel that this country sort of gambling operation, they are here to set up and is unwelcoming. do tasks and to provide reasonable employment. They In this connection, I refer to a recent controversy are not speculations. Some people speculate on them— involving the London Metropolitan University. As a good luck to them—but that is not the primary role of result of it, there was talk of revoking the licence of people who have set them up, including people I know. the university.The implications for students from overseas SMEs were invented by the Victorians and are were such that they could have lost their opportunity remarkable organisations. Being a limited liability company of an education in this country. It is a major area of enables you to do things you cannot do as a charity or concern. Again, a message was going out, and it is as a partnership; an SME can do them. I support the very difficult to counteract messages once they get out present Government in their efforts to simplify things and to say, “No, no, that’s not the case”. That was a for SMEs so that they can run better. It is very much case where the message was quite negative for this easier for SMEs here than in France, for example, country. which I know because our company deals with colleagues We need to talk up business. For SMEs, publicity is in France. The tax regime was improved by the Blair- crucial in order to know what is available. We should Brown Government, particularly in maintaining tax not go against the need to reduce the deficit; rather, we relief on research. The present Government had a few should emphasise the need to encourage business—not wobbles on that when they first came in, but now they just business alone but the Treasury and other departments are solid on allowing tax relief on development. in the Government. The role of women in SMEs has increased enormously. I look forward to the Minister engaging with us and Our own software company is composed of 80% women reporting back on what progress has been made with and is thus probably unique in the world. We have a the various initiatives. The noble Baroness, Lady Liddell, very firm No. 2 who is a woman, and she jolly well referred to her time in the other place. When I was in made sure of that. The important point to make is the other place, I argued time and again for the need that the Government introduced regulations to ensure for Ministers or politicians to appreciate what a small that companies enable women to come back into business is all about, and for civil servants and others employment. This is allowing highly skilled women to to have placements in small businesses. I read that the stay in the SME workforce. Government were doing that a lot more, but I stress to the Minister that it cannot happen enough. Having This debate is about the role of UKTI. One of the struggled myself, I know that a Minister or civil servant issues for SMEs in Europe is the question of funding would have to work in a small business for only two or for research and development. The Technology Strategy three days to realise what a difficult field it is and how Board is an effective body, and it is gratifying to note many skills you need to run it. I strongly support what that the present Government have maintained it. However, has been said by previous speakers and underline to I did not see any reference in the UKTI document the Minister the points that I have made about involvement provided for this debate to its connections with the and speaking up for business. board. It is important that UKTI should work with the TSB to look at where the overseas market areas are. In my view, we are still way behind the United 4.53 pm States, which funds research undertaken by foreign Lord Hunt of Chesterton: My Lords, I welcome this scientists. Two or three of my papers were immediately debate, introduced by the noble Baroness, Lady Liddell. funded to do research over in America; there was no I have experience with high-tech SMEs applying UK such funding over here. research and have had discussions with medium-tech The other important feature of SMEs is the matching- SMEs around the world. I declare an interest as chair grants approach adopted by the European Commission. of a small company in Cambridge and am glad to say In Britain it is difficult to get this sort of funding. You that we have just sold software to Beijing to predict its cannot easily get money from the research councils, so air pollution, which is quite a coup for the UK. It is the approach of the EC of providing a matching grant the same software as that used in London and reported equal to the funding provided by the SME is a good on by Ministers in May. one. We do not do that in the UK and I believe that we We have to remember that the development of could move more in that direction. SMEs was once extremely controversial politically. Last year I went with the noble Lord, Lord Oxburgh, For example, in Cambridge, both the Conservatives to the big water show in Singapore. It is the world’s and the Labour Party were dead against Cambridge biggest annual exhibition of water. Water does not turning into a high-tech town, and one of my Labour feature much in this UKTI report, perhaps because it colleagues said, “My God, this is going to turn Cambridge is a low-growth industry, but it is jolly important. We into an inland Bournemouth”. We have moved a long saw enormous displays of water technologies from all way since those days. All parties now accept the around the world. Britain had only a small display, GC 429 UK Trade and Investment[9 OCTOBER 2012] UK Trade and Investment GC 430 and we heard grumbly representatives from British that that is very unfair, as government can genuinely companies say that they got little support from UKTI assist business, not only in creating the right environment to come to meetings such as this one. They were very for business to flourish but in the way that UKTI vociferous. In fact we met the UKTI man who had helps British businesses go global. Yet it saddens me come down from Kuala Lumpur. He listened to and that when I make speeches around the country and recognised those grumbles. He commented on it later, ask an audience of, say, 200 businesspeople, “How when I visited the embassy and high commission, many of you do business with India?”, just a few saying that there are so many trade exhibitions that hands go up. there simply is not the funding available to enable I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Liddell, for initiating small UK companies to attend. this debate. The reality is that only 20% of British The other important task for UKTI and the companies export—that goes for SMEs as well. If that Government is the promotion of the role of governmental could be increased to 25%, that would add another agencies in the UK. I used to be the head of the Met £36 billion to the UK economy. SMEs are the engine Office. At no point did my job description include of our economy. According to the Secretary of State anything to do with British industry. I complained for Business, more than half the monetary value of the about it to the then Conservative Government. They UK’s exports comes from SMEs. SMEs employ more said, “Why don’t you go to the Sunday fete and help than 60% of the private sector workforce and there are them?”. I was pretty cross and I expostulated about it. 4.4 million SMEs in the UK. In the past 12 months, The representative, now a fine Member of the House UK Trade and Investment has helped more than 25,000 of Lords, then said, “Well, that is the sort of thing businesses, of which more than 90% were SMEs. they do in France, isn’t it”. The point is that our big It baffles me why businesses do not make more use government agencies could play an enormous role. of the help that UKTI can offer. From my own recent However, the Environment Agency is not allowed to experience, in 2009 we signed our global joint venture promote UK environmental software or technology for the whole world, excluding India, with Molson abroad. I have spoken to the head of the agency about Coors. Three years ago, Molson Coors was not interested it. We have extraordinary limitations. in India and said, “You keep India”. A year later, as I have almost used up my six minutes. I believe that the global joint venture was progressing well, they this document is helpful. Finally, there is a new point expressed an interest in looking at the Indian opportunity. that is very interesting. As I understand it, the UKTI When I accompanied the Molson Coors team to India, is now providing funding in order to bring companies we met with Barry Lowen, the head of UK Trade and into the UK, such as into the high-tech centre in east Investment in India, who was able personally to reassure London. Doing that is fine, but the department might my colleagues from Molson Coors of the Indian talk to those British companies which are working in opportunity. This helped greatly and a year later, in the same area so as to make sure that it is about 2011, we signed a joint venture for India, called Molson collaboration, not spurious competition. Coors Cobra India, and bought, upgraded and expanded the only brewer in the state of Bihar. 5pm A year later, in June 2012, the global board of Molson Coors, its enterprise leadership team, for the Lord Bilimoria: My Lords, when I accompanied first time in its more than 200-year history, held a Prime Minister Tony Blair on his visit to China and board meeting outside the United States, Canada and India in 2005, we christened the British Airways plane the UK—in India. During that visit, UKTI and the that we travelled in “Blair Force One”. In his excellent British high commission organised a high-profile event speech in India, Mr Blair said that he was wearing two in Delhi for the board to meet key individuals who hats: one as Prime Minister of the United Kingdom provided a variety of feedback, which gave the board and the other due to Britain’s presidency of the European the confidence not only to continue to support the Union at that time. Indian joint venture but, all being well, to sanction I, too, am speaking in this debate wearing more further expansion in India in the years to come. The than one hat. The first is as the founder and chairman role played by UKTI and the British high commission of Cobra Beer, which I founded with my business was absolutely instrumental. partner, just the two of us. It grew from a micro-business As the noble Lords, Lord Cope and Lord Cotter, to a small business to a medium business—the full said, what more can the Government do to get this spectrum of an SME. The second is now as the message out to British business, particularly SMEs, to chairman of a larger business with a global joint take advantage of this help that is available to all venture with one of the world’s largest brewers, Molson British businesses? UKTI is on the ground in 96 countries. Coors, headquartered here in the UK, and a joint It is present around the world and can do much for venture with Molson Coors in India. I am also wearing British business and SMEs: it can carry out market-entry the hat of the founding chairman of the UK India research, OMIS reports, at very reasonable rates; it Business Council, where I have had the privilege of can make introductions; it can help to host events; it working closely with UK Trade and Investment, which can provide networking opportunities, host and organise has funded and supported the UK India Business trade delegations—I could go on. Why do businesses Council. In fact, the UKIBC would not exist without not know about this and make more use of it? UKTI’s support. The Government have rightly woken up to the fact Ronald Reagan is famous for saying that the nine that Britain does not have a balanced economy. We most terrifying words he had ever heard were, “I’m have let things slip. In 1978, manufacturing was 26% from the Government and I’m here to help”. I think of GDP; today it is barely 12%. In 1970, services GC 431 UK Trade and Investment[LORDS] UK Trade and Investment GC 432

[LORD BILIMORIA] However good UKTI is, its work alone will not accounted for 54% of GVA and manufacturing 40%; improve our balance of payments. It is the businesses by 2009 it was 78% and 17% respectively. We need to that have to export and it is the SMEs that are doing encourage manufacturing. What we have not lost is more and more of this. The real task must be to find the ability to be the best of the best in manufacturing out what it is that prevents small businesses from in the world. In terms of advanced engineering, just exporting. Is it lack of finance, lack of know-how, look at Rolls-Royce, whether cars or aero engines. lack of knowledge about the markets, lack of contacts, Look at Jaguar Land Rover—at our whole automobile lack of confidence or just plain old lack of interest? industry in fact. At Cobra I am very proud that, first Perhaps the most difficult of these to deal with is lack and foremost, I am a manufacturer. of interest. You can demonstrate that exporting provides What are the Government doing to encourage opportunities to increase turnover and to raise productivity innovation? The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, alluded to and profitability, but people have to be receptive to this. It is a shocking fact that the UK Government’s these arguments. People also have to be prepared to investment in R and D is well below that of other take the risk as well as to undertake the hard work. So advanced economies. Sweden’s investment is 3.5% of UKTI will have to be selective. It is the people that GDP; in Finland and Japan it is 3.4%; in Germany make the difference—this is the can-do attitude that 2.5%; in the US 2.7%. In the UK it is only 1.8%. Skills the noble Lord, Lord Cope, told us about—and I development is crucial. According to the World Economic believe that UKTI will have to recognise these people. Forum, the UK workforce is 18th in the world, far behind those of Japan, Germany, Sweden and the The main problem for those businesses that do Netherlands, for example. export seems to be finance. The banks say that they are most anxious not only to finance exports but to The good work that UKTI does cannot operate in a provide additional services such as debt collection, vacuum. Government has to create the environment to document preparation, insurance and seminars on help the capacity and capability of British businesses exporting, yet somehow businesses say that the banks to excel and to be able to export and compete around are their biggest problem. Indeed, Mr Cable, the Business the world. It needs to create the environment with a Secretary, said during an interview at his party’s conference competitive tax regime and low red tape and regulation, that his department’s research showed a high rejection which will attract inward investment and so help SMEs. by banks of SMEs wanting to export. There is a Our taxes are too high, although I am happy to see mismatch somewhere. I am not sure what UKTI can that a survey published today says that, where red tape do about it. After all, the Government have introduced is concerned, we are actually far better than many several schemes to try to put this right with what I can other countries. Thankfully we are not in the euro, but only describe as mixed success. our exports are still too dependent on the euro. UKTI must continue to encourage British businesses to look In addition, there are other organisations trying to more globally, particularly to countries such as India. help exporters: financial service companies that will We are a trading nation, we are outward-looking, we discount invoices; organisations that will fund your are an open country and we can only succeed and customer so that they can buy your product; the compete by encouraging our businesses to go global. Institute of Export, which provides valuable and necessary Otherwise the world will leave us behind. skills training for exporters; market research organisations; mentoring schemes; and some large companies that 5.06 pm help companies in their supply chain to export. The British Chambers of Commerce and trade organisations Lord Haskel: My Lords, before I came into your also supply information and try to help. Then there Lordships’ House, I, too, was in business. Many of the are the European single market incentives that the points that my noble friend makes about UKTI now noble Lord, Lord Hunt, spoke about, such as the were also apparent back then, long before my noble Enterprise Europe Network and the internet’s points friend was there. of single contact. There is a lot on offer. So what is the As the noble Lord, Lord Cope, said, I am serving role of UKTI with all this other help available? It is on the committee that is looking into this very matter. certainly not to duplicate it. As he explained, we have started our inquiry, so what I have to say benefits from our early work. Of course That brings me back to where I started: people. UKTI was a very early port of call for this committee. From the exporters whom I have met and from my My impression is that here is an organisation in the own personal experience as an exporter, I know that midst of change, as my noble friend Lady Liddell the one thing that really convinces small businesses to pointed out. There are new people in senior jobs, some get into exporting is when they meet somebody else from the private sector. Some local appointments have who has done it and done it successfully. Perhaps they yet to be made, but in general their task seems to be to got into exporting by a chance visit, through some reorganise the way in which they work. I believe that technical, scientific or commercial meeting, or through we all welcome this. The proposed direction of travel social networking or selling on the internet. The seems to overcome some of the criticisms that we have Government, somehow, have to encourage this. Perhaps heard, such as UKTI making its services known, one way would be to reduce the cost of travel for identifying priorities and getting those parts of government exporters by allowing a rebate on the air ticket tax, as such as the Foreign Office and the Home Office to they do on VAT. I finish where I started. It is this share these priorities and to work more closely with personal aspect that is the most effective, yet it is the UK Export Finance, the old ECGD. However, it is most difficult. This is where UKTI has to work hardest early days. if it is going to succeed. GC 433 UK Trade and Investment[9 OCTOBER 2012] UK Trade and Investment GC 434

5.12 pm almost like a state secret. No one I know, and perhaps very few of your Lordships, has ever heard of it. Why Lord Mitchell: My Lords, my noble friend Lady has it not been marketed and why does it last for only Liddell has done us a great service in securing this one year? Schemes of this nature need time to bear debate. We must thank her for that as well as the very fruit. Pulling up the project by its roots after one year impressive speech that she has just made. The contribution to examine whether it is growing is hardly the way to made by speakers from all parties is tribute to the develop a policy geared to providing new investment importance of SMEs in the national economy. in new companies. We need business angels to help It is no surprise that my party fundamentally disagrees fund exciting businesses, particularly in my area, which with this Government’s economic policy, most particularly is technology. Using the tax system to help angel their refusal to moderate austerity and revert to a investment is an excellent idea. I will make a plea to growth-based strategy. Yesterday, George Osborne said the Minister that may sound strange coming from a that there is no alternative. Today, David Cameron shadow Minister. The SEIS is a very good scheme. says that the economy is slowly healing. However, this Please leave it in place, and please market the programme morning, the IMF says that our economy is contracting seriously so that more potential angels are attracted to and today’s trade figures are appalling. I wonder what invest. planet these people live on. The programmes introduced by the Government In the SME world which I inhabit, the effect of have been woeful in their level of success. For the most austerity has been devastating. Without credit, part they have been ill thought through and incompetently businessmen simply cannot expand their businesses implemented. My advice to the Government is to and cannot employ more people. I had guessed that by think deeper about projects to help SMEs, to put this stage of the debate every aspect of what UKTI much more effort into marketing them and, most of does would have been covered, so I am going to stay all, to give them time to develop. away from it, at least directly, and talk about other agencies which the Government have to promote SMEs. The Government have been almost manic in introducing 5.17 pm new programmes supposedly to help SMEs, but the Lord Green of Hurstpierpoint: My Lords, I begin by results have been somewhat anaemic. The fact is that congratulating the noble Baroness, Lady Liddell, on announcing a programme is one thing, making it work securing a very important debate on trade and investment, is something else. Not surprisingly, the Government especially relating to small and medium-sized enterprises. have chosen the high street banks to deliver many of The role of UKTI is complex and I will focus my their programmes. The suspicion is strong, however, remarks on the involvement with SMEs. I assure the that instead of befitting small and medium-sized business noble Baroness that SMEs are an extremely important as intended, the banks are directing these funds either focus. As the noble Lord, Lord Bilimoria, reminded to the more highly profitable consumer sector or else us, more than 90% of the client base of UKTI is towards bolstering their own balance sheets. SMEs. I will talk a little about how an organisation The business growth fund owes its genesis to Project that, as the noble Lord, Lord Haskel, commented, is Merlin, which as the Minister will know was an in transition—I agree that it is—is attempting to make undertaking written in blood by the banks to benefit sure that it does the best possible job of support for British industry. But what do we see? We see the fund SMEs. in many instances investing in companies not by funding The noble Baroness has long supported business, as investment or cash flow but, perversely, by cashing out Economic Secretary to the Treasury and Minister for managers and shareholders. The word on the street is Energy and Competitiveness in Europe in the first that the business growth fund is a total failure. I would term of the previous Government, and as a successful like to hear the Minister’s view on this. high commissioner in Australia who was very active in I come to the business finance partnership. This is a supporting British business there. I checked the statistics. £1.2 billion pot, of which £700 million is supposedly Whereas in most markets over the past 10 years Britain committed to mid-sized companies. It aims to promote steadily lost share or had a share so low it was difficult alternative and non-traditional channels of finance. I to lose, in Australia between 2006 and 2009 we at least am told by people who are in the know that little has had a stable share and in some respects, particularly happened. There is also the regional growth fund. Out services, grew it. I am afraid that it rather declined of £1.4 billion earmarked for this project, only £60 million after 2009; I wonder whether this was cause and effect. has been received by business. “Glacial” is a word I I think that we all agree that we face a national used to describe the fund. The enterprise guarantee challenge as we seek to rebalance our economy and scheme is also a flagship project. Again, I would like find a stable and sustainable growth path that will to know how it is progressing. There is also the export create jobs. The old model that was in place in the enterprise finance guarantee scheme that was launched run-up to the financial and economic crisis is, as we all to fund exports and is directed at SMEs. It is all good know, bust. The economics textbooks state that if we stuff, but by June of this year it had allocated only cannot grow on the basis of consumers piling on debt £3 million—or so I am told. and government spending growing larger, it will have One government initiative that I fully support is the to be on the basis of more successful trade and investment. seed enterprise investment scheme introduced by the I shall not comment much on investment because it Chancellor this time last year. I am contemplating is a separate and complex topic, except to say that, on investing in various start-up companies, using this the whole, this country has had for a number of years structure. It is very tax efficient. However, it seems a fairly good record in attracting foreign direct investment. GC 435 UK Trade and Investment[LORDS] UK Trade and Investment GC 436

[LORD GREEN OF HURSTPIERPOINT] it?”. As a number of noble Lords have said, they do We cannot be complacent. We need to ensure that not have the administrative apparatus that larger government policies are in place to ensure that that companies have; they are often one-person bands or performance continues. However, we have a big challenge employ 10 or 20 people. It is a difficult task. What is in trade. We have had a weak trade position for the the role of UKTI in this? It is many-sided, but it is past 40 to 50 years—this is not a new problem. For critical. It is there to provide direct help. There is a most of those years, trade has been a drag on growth public commitment on the part of UKTI to double its rather than a contributor to it. I have already mentioned client base from around 25,000 now to 50,000 by the our market share in goods, which is down and/or the end of 2015. It should be there to provide specific lowest during the past 10 years in virtually every services to small companies. It has two particular priority market. It is rather better in services, but when packages that are well targeted to their needs: a Passport you look at our performance in places such as Brazil, to Export package, which is for a first-time exporter; China, Colombia, Indonesia, Japan, Mexico and and a Gateway to Global Growth package, which is Russia—I could go on—you see that it is lamentable, for those businesses that have already moved into one being behind not only that of the Germans, which market and are looking at opportunities in others. It might be expected, but that of the French and the provides market information; it helps form partnerships Italians, and I can think of no good reason why that overseas; and it is there to help deal with the finance should be the case. access question, which I shall return to shortly. It is I share the view of so many noble Lords who have there to nurture investors, too, but I shall not dwell spoken in this debate that it is critical that we focus much on that, if noble Lords will allow, on this strongly on SMEs. SMEs account for more than half occasion. of all goods exports—they account for rather less of What is the present condition of UKTI? First, it services, but they are none the less an important part has a clear strategy. We have a list of priority countries of the export proposition. We are behind the European on which we are focusing—there are 19 of them, four curve. The noble Lord, Lord Bilimoria, has already topmost and another 15 in a second tier. You might mentioned that only 20% of our companies export guess three of the topmost—China, Brazil and India. versus a European average of roughly 25%. One way The fourth is Turkey rather than Russia. There are of looking at our challenge is to seek to get our SME particularly interesting strategic reasons for engaging propensity to export up to that European average. If as proactively as possible with Turkey. Russia is in the we did that, we would go a long way towards curing next tier. our trade deficit problem. I am convinced—again, I echo the sentiments of a There is a clear focus on the sectors that we should number of noble Lords—that we have the potential to cover. There are five main groups of sectors with do this. The sheer variety of SMEs is an extremely 18 subsectors, one of which includes water and important factor. The thing that I have enjoyed most environment technology. I believe that there is a lot of about my job during the past 20 years is going around work to do to ensure that the sector competence in this country—I have gone around the world a lot, of UKTI is up to the demands of private sector businesses course—meeting businesses of every shape and size in going into the export markets. We have work to do on every sector and every region of the country. You find that. I can assure noble Lords that we are on the case. examples of creative, energetic exporters, with a high A new management team is in place. The noble profile in their local community, who are going out Baroness, Lady Liddell, asked whether any of them and taking on the world. If one ever had a moment’s had a background in the private sector, and specifically doubt about this country’s ability to pay its way in the whether they had worked with smaller companies. I 21st century, you need only to do what I have been am pleased to report that the person we brought in to doing to allay those doubts. take specific responsibility for the SME business of Furthermore, the evidence is clear that there are UKTI comes from the private sector. He has had a significant efficiency gains on average for any company 25-year career as an MD or group executive of more that gets into the export markets. Therefore, succeeding than 20 different SMEs over time in a range of sectors, in this SME exporting campaign is not only addressing including pharma and automotive software. His last our balance of payments but strengthening the backbone position before joining UKTI was as CEO of of the economy while we do it. Biocompatibles International. I think that he has The Prime Minister last November set a target of demonstrable and credible expertise. I am pleased to 100,000 extra SMEs in the export markets by 2020. report that because it is important as regards a key There is a strong focus on emerging markets, because, leadership position in UKTI. It should not be the only as I think we would all recognise, that is where the position occupied by someone with clear private sector growth is coming from now and is likely to continue to experience. We need to ensure that there are plenty of come for the next generation. The central gravity of others through the system. the world’s economy is shifting from west to east and I am very interested in the comments that the noble from north to south, and the emerging markets in Lord, Lord Cope, and others have made about the Asia, the Middle East, Latin America, Africa—at the importance of getting practical secondment experience moment, six of the 10 fastest-growing countries in the into SMEs. I shall take that thought away and see how world are African—represent opportunities. we can make a reality of it. Although I am ashamed to However, we all know that this is a challenge and say that I have never done it myself—I have worked that the first time that an SME exports is a daunting only in big companies—I fully take the point that proposition—“Where do I begin? How do I go about seeing what it is really like on the inside is important. GC 437 UK Trade and Investment[9 OCTOBER 2012] Health: Cancer GC 438

A new structure is in place that will give a clear the past 20 years. We need to turn that around. We focus on SMEs and on what we call high-value need to reskill the banks. The good news is that the opportunities. They are the opportunities in infrastructure CEOs are all very committed to this. The challenge is in particular in many overseas markets where very that it is going to be a bit like turning around an oil large spending is taking place by overseas Governments tanker—I am afraid that it will take some time and we and where I believe that there is an opportunity to have some work to do on that. But I can assure noble bring together on a cohesive basis the British offer, Lords that I hold regular round tables with the banks, which will include not only some big companies but, at both CEO and head of commercial banking level. I critically, some SMEs as well. We have been putting and the Secretary of State are on this case. our money where our mouth is. I am very conscious that I have run out of time. I thank the noble Baroness for introducing this debate Lord Hunt of Chesterton: In addressing that point, and noble Lords for participating. This is a challenge will the Government do more to enable SMEs to that I care passionately about, as I hope noble Lords attend these very large trade shows where these jobs can tell. We have a great deal to do but I believe that and this technology can be displayed? The difference we can be successful as long as we stick at it. between the UK and other countries is enormous in that respect. As I understand it, the Government decided to cut back on funding of that sort. Can the Health: Cancer Minister reassure us? Question for Short Debate

Lord Green of Hurstpierpoint: I am very pleased to 5.32 pm reassure the noble Lord, Lord Hunt. When I arrived in this position I took the view that we had cut back Asked By Baroness Gardner of Parkes too much. One might debate whether some of the To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment earlier spending was fruitful but it may have been cut they have made of the increase in cases of cancer of back too much. We have pulled it out of the nose dive the head and neck, in particular in younger age and I am pleased to report that we have just allocated groups. an extra £3 million to trade access programme activities, which is the area of trade fair attendance that the Baroness Gardner of Parkes: My Lords, my reason noble Lord is calling for. for bringing this debate today is to improve awareness This year, out of 288 missions, 178 were specifically of the increase in cases of cancer of the head and focused on SMEs, a statistic which I should mention. I neck, and to consider what actions should be taken to hope to reassure the Committee that we are serious deal with these very unpleasant and often fatal conditions. about this. SMEs are critical to the long-term success Tongue cancer and mouth cancer are the most common of the economy and to the export challenge for this in the group of cancers of many sites within the head country. They are therefore at the centre of UKTI’s and neck area. My particular interest is oral cancer, objectives. which, as a former dentist, I look on as cancer of the There are plenty of challenges. More than one mouth, but the definition includes head, neck and noble Lord has mentioned awareness. At the moment, throat cancers, and the title of the debate is to widen the evidence is that about 56% of companies are aware the subject. of UKTI, which is simply not good enough. There is Oral cancer is the 15th most common cancer in the evidence also that only 24% are aware of UK export UK. Assessment is important but progress towards finance, which is miles away from being good enough. earlier diagnosis, urgent follow-up and specialist treatment The satisfaction rates for the quality of service is not is the real essential. Great work is being done in study, yet good enough. It is not that bad but it is in the research and treatment, in London by the Eastman mid-70s. I think that it should be at least in the high Dental Institute, King’s College London Dental Institute 80s or low 90s. Therefore, there is a direction of travel and the Royal Marsden, and others in different parts that we must make sure that we get to, which is partly of the country. I would like to record my thanks to about the quality of the people in UKTI. We are these organisations, and to the Oracle Cancer Trust, a setting up a new unit within UKTI to focus on venture charity that does much to help patients and increase capitalists, because it is important to encourage venture awareness, for the data it provided me for this debate. capital into the economy and link it up with business To quote from a review article published in Oral opportunities. Diseases in 2010: I am conscious that my time is running out fast so I “Worldwide, oral cancer has one of the lowest survival rates will just say a word on finance. The finance issue is and poor prognosis remains unaffected despite recent therapeutic quite complex. It is about venture capitalists and seed advances. Reducing diagnostic delay to achieve earlier detection money. The noble Lord’s comments about the enterprise is a cornerstone to improve survival. Thus, intervention strategies investment scheme resonated very strongly with me. I to minimise diagnostic delays resulting from patient factors and will take them away and we will see what we can do, to identify groups at risk in different geographical areas seem to be necessary. The identification of a ‘scheduling delay’ in oral but we are very clear that this is an important scheme. cancer justifies the introduction of additional educational interventions More generally on business banking, there is a clear aimed at the whole health care team at dental and medical need to reinvest properly in business banking. In some practices”. ways I am better placed than many to say this. The In the UK, between 1989 and 2006 there was a 51% banks have disinvested—unintentionally, but none the increase in oral, tonsil and base of tongue cancers in less in fact—in their business banking capabilities over men, from seven per 100,000 of the population to GC 439 Health: Cancer[LORDS] Health: Cancer GC 440

[BARONESS GARDNER OF PARKES] findings suggest that even among people who have the 11 per 100,000. Unfortunately, almost half of the oral disease, understanding of the link between alcohol, cancers are diagnosed at stages 3 or 4, which are the tobacco and oral cancer is still limited. A number of advanced stages. Delay in diagnosis is now considered people could recall the related television campaign to be either patient delay or professional delay.Diagnostic and supported the view that it had played an important delay is measured by the number of days elapsed since part in their own diagnosis and treatment. The West of the patient notices the first signs and/or symptoms Scotland Cancer Awareness Project, funded by Cancer until a definitive diagnosis is reached. Studies suggest Research UK, led many patients to make an initial that 30% of patients delay seeking help for more than appointment with a health professional to have symptoms three months following the discovery of symptoms of investigated. I understand that this is the body which oral cancer. There is a great need to improve public financed the television programme. This is a most awareness not only of the condition but of the need to important message, and a number of patients with seek assessment as soon as possible, thus increasing oral cancer reported that it was the programme that the possibility of effective treatment. Early diagnosis had saved them. I hope that the Minister will pass that can decrease morbidity and may improve overall long-term message on to the Department of Health. survival. In cases of laryngeal cancer, diagnostic delay Intra-oral cancer is particularly lethal, whereas cancer has a remarkably worsening effect on survival. of the lip is less so. In my early practising days, many What is the cause of oral cancer? Most cases of of my patients presented with a white patch on their carcinoma are linked to lifestyle factors and should lower lip. This is called leukoplakia and is considered therefore be preventable. Most important is the excessive pre-cancerous. In those days it was common to see use of tobacco and alcohol, and in some groups, betel men walking around with a fag hanging on their lip. quid juice is relevant. Diet is significant, and another Holding a cigarette or pipe almost constantly in place reason in favour of fresh fruit and vegetables. The on that spot was one of the main causes of the recommended five portions a day should include red, symptom. Leukoplakia still occurs but for different yellow and green fruits. In a minority of cases, particularly reasons, as lifestyle habits have changed. The important among younger patients where known risk factors are thing to realise is that any white or red patch in the absent, human papilloma virus, HPV infection, is now mouth should not be ignored. It requires proper thought to be a likely cause. HPV infection has also assessment and treatment without delay. been considered as a cause of oropharyngeal cancer. It I cannot say too often that early diagnosis is essential is hoped that the recent HPV vaccination programme for the successful treatment of any cancer. Years ago, in teenage girls may have a longer beneficial impact on when we had free dental examinations, people went the incidence of this cancer. People with poor dental more regularly to the dentist, and early lesions were health, such as sharp broken teeth, dental sepsis or discovered, mostly by dentists. Dentists are usually trauma from ill-fitting dentures, are at a slightly increased still the first to see a mouth cancer, but it is essential risk. An ulcer—a lesion that breaks the surface lining that GPs are aware of the need to do routine checks, of the mouth—that fails to heal within two weeks with particularly if the patient has not had a dental check-up the appropriate therapy and correction of any possible for some time. causative factors, and for which no other diagnosis Above all, the public need to be aware of the can be established, should be suspected of being a warning that comes with any change in their mouth, malignant ulcer. Hardening or enlargement of the or any ulcer that does not heal. They should present lymph nodes in the neck are another warning sign, immediately for assessment and possible treatment. If and attention must be sought by the patient. the practitioner—doctor, dentist or nurse—believes There are many potentially malignant conditions, that there is cause for concern and the condition does but I do not have time to list them today. It is for not improve with treatment within two weeks, the clinicians to be aware of these and to diagnose them. patient should be referred for a biopsy, which is the The public need simply to be aware that any noticeable only definitive diagnostic tool. If cancer is suspected, change in the mouth should not go unheeded. Dental the referral must be marked “urgent”, in accordance professionals need to keep abreast of the latest with NICE criteria, to reduce the pre-treatment interval. developments, and they can do this through lifelong The number of patients who attribute their successful learning, as they remain the major diagnosticians. treatment to the fact that they saw a Department of However, it is essential that family doctors should be Health warning or information is high. aware of oral anatomy so that they know the difference I will make a few brief points to close. There needs between normal and abnormal. When carried out to be a referral change. In your Lordships’ House I competently, screening of oral mucosa should not have for some years pressed for mouth examinations take more than three minutes, and training should to become routine when any patient attends an accident mean that these procedures are effective. Dentists should and emergency department or polyclinic—about which give advice to patients to enable them to recognise the we seem to hear less now—and that in the interests of signs and symptoms at an early stage and thus to seek treating numbers and managing to finance this, unqualified early treatment. This would help, but it needs to go staff could be trained in the first instance to carry out wider than that; pharmacists and dental hygienists a quick check. If there is any cause for doubt about need to do this as well. the mouth condition being normal, they would refer A study published in 2010 in the British Dental the patient up the line to either a specialist nurse or a Journal showed that oral cancer is an important health dental hygienist who would then decide whether they issue in Scotland. Some of the young appreciate that should be referred further so that appropriate treatment alcohol and tobacco are causative factors, but the could be provided, urgently if indicated. The previous GC 441 Health: Cancer[9 OCTOBER 2012] Health: Cancer GC 442

Labour Government agreed that this would be a found for such targeted radiotherapy treatment. For worthwhile thing to do and confirmed that semi-skilled this to be widely available across England there are health workers could carry out these brief mouth implications for both equipment and training, but it is checks. It would not require qualified dentists or doctors a good start. at the preliminary stage. I still think that this would be Currently all aspects of cancer care are co-ordinated very valuable and I press the Minister to give it serious by cancer networks, multidisciplinary teams looking thought. at the whole pathway through diagnosis, treatment, hospice and palliative care where required, and aftercare when the patient returns home. This is all about integration 5.42 pm at work. They have played a key role in driving up the Baroness Jolly: My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, quality of cancer services and patient experiences for Lady Gardner of Parkes, for securing the debate. It is the past 12 years. I draw attention to the excellent timely and allows all areas around the treatment of work of cancer networks and raise some concerns head and neck cancers to be discussed. I will examine about their future in the new system. areas around diagnosis, prevention, treatment and the In England there are 28 cancer networks that, since pivotal role that cancer networks have played in achieving 2000, have been bringing together providers and improved head and neck cancer services. commissioners of cancer care to work together to plan The noble Baroness is well known for her championing and deliver high-quality, integrated cancer services for of the role of the dentist. In the area of cancers of the people living with and beyond cancer in their local head and neck they can be key players in diagnosis, areas. These networks drive forward local cancer strategies. spotting signs and symptoms before the patient and They are a key source of cancer expertise, encourage their GP. However, there are issues around this that service redesign and integration, and monitor the need resolving in the area of the training and continuing performance of providers to highlight poor outcomes. professional development of dentists and GPs. Many cancer networks have been central to the The evidence on the incidence of head and neck implementation of NICE’s guidance on improving cancers and their occurrence in younger age groups is outcomes on rarer cancers. Many of the cancers that mixed. The prime causes of most of these cancers are we are discussing today fall into that category. More smoking, alcohol and a poor diet—back to the five a specifically, they have also been acknowledged as key day and three different-coloured fruits—as well as the players in delivering NICE’s service guidance on improving human papilloma virus. That suggests that the age outcomes in head and neck cancers. These are not range of those affected might be wide. common cancers, and the networks have been used to There is a clear public health role in prevention. If disseminate information. Public Health England and public health departments NICE recommends that networks should be charged in local authorities carry out the roles envisaged for with deciding which hospitals will diagnose, treat and them in the Health and Social Care Act, the incidence care for these particular patients. So when it comes to of these cancers should reduce. However, care must be the quality of care that people living with head and taken to ensure that the NHS, Public Health England neck cancers receive, networks have been driving service and local authorities co-ordinate their approaches and improvements throughout the country. An example of campaigns. At least three-quarters of oral cancers integration and service improvement is the Greater could be prevented by the elimination of tobacco Manchester Cancer Network, which has a head and smoking and a reduction in alcohol consumption. The neck clinical sub-group with the aim of overseeing, scheme to make cigarette purchase less easy is to be supporting and bringing together multidisciplinary welcomed and I urge the Government to follow the teams working on these types of cancer to ensure that advice and not the tobacco lobby in adopting plain each patient gets the most appropriate treatment and packaging for cigarette packs at the earliest opportunity. the highest standards of care. There are several networks Can the Minister tell the Committee what plans the that have co-ordinated to inform local strategies for Government have to address the issue of underage head and neck cancers and to promote integration: drinking in the home? Despite the scenes of rowdy East Midlands, Anglia, Central South and North London young people in town centres, most alcohol is actually to name a few. These have been absolutely pivotal. drunk at home by young and old alike. They have also been critical in driving up patient As we have heard, HPV is often linked to involvement. The Peninsula Cancer Network hosts oropharyngeal cancers. The evidence of this cancer head and neck cancer support groups across Torbay, has doubled in 10 years. There must be a case for Cornwall and Plymouth for people who find it difficult vaccinating all teenagers and not girls alone. Will the to eat, drink or speak after having treatment due to Minister consider looking at the evidence for this? head and neck cancers. Most people do not know that radiotherapy cures It was encouraging that, last year, the former Health more cancers than drugs. Cancer patients should Secretary made a public commitment to fund and have access to treatments that their doctors think support cancer networks in 2012-13. I welcome the will be best for them. It is essential that new radiotherapy proposals on clinical networks recently published by techniques, such as intensity modulated radiotherapy— the NHS Commissioning Board Special Heath Authority IMRT—are rolled out swiftly. IMRT can be really which officially establish cancer networks as strategically beneficial to patients with cancers of the head and clinical networks in the new NHS. neck. It focuses very much around the cancer itself However, the significant changes proposed for the and does not spread to surrounding tissue. It is a new structure for cancer networks leave me with a welcome announcement that £15 million is to be worry about how networks will be supported in delivering GC 443 Health: Cancer[LORDS] Health: Cancer GC 444

[BARONESS JOLLY] towards the new health system, it is vital that people their key services. In the sector, there are fears in three with rarer cancers are fully recognised and receive the distinct areas. The first fear is of a drastic reduction in specialist care that they need so that outcomes can be the staffing levels for cancer networks. The proposals improved in the less common as well as the more indicate that there will be only eight permanent staff common cancers. I declare an interest as chief executive in each regional team, compared to 20 staff members of Breast Cancer Campaign, which is a research charity. currently in post per network. Research carried out by As noble Lords know, the Government published Macmillan also showed that a number of network their strategy for cancer in January 2011, stating their directors reported difficulties in recruiting and retaining ambition to save an additional 5,000 lives from cancer staff because of uncertainty around resourcing. Can every year by 2014-15, to improve the experiences of the Minister assure the Committee that cancer networks cancer patients in England and to narrow the gap in will have sufficient staff to carry out their functions cancer outcomes between different groups in society. effectively? In turn, the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Cancer, The second fear is of a loss of experienced directors, of which I am a vice-chair, published a report in 2011, which would have an impact on the effective running Effective Cancer Commissioning in the New NHS, of cancer networks. Under the proposals, existing which set out recommendations that would support directors with a wealth of knowledge in the development the NHS in achieving the Government’s aims. and delivery of high-quality cancer care in their region The all-party group has spent this year campaigning will have to reapply for their roles. Recruiting and for implementation of our recommendations, focusing training senior staff, some of whom have had no particularly on the new accountability structures, the previous experience in cancer, could have a negative NHS outcomes framework and the commissioning impact on the quality of services and support that outcomes framework. We have raised the issue of cancer networks provide. Can the Minister suggest improved outcomes in less common cancers, including what steps he will take to ensure that experienced the head and neck cancers that we have heard about directors and cancer experts are retained? today. The third fear is of cancer networks’ role being limited to early diagnosis. Although improving earlier Key to improving outcomes and to achieving the detection of cancer is essential to preventing people Government’s ambition of saving an additional 5,000 lives dying prematurely—as we have heard today, head and from cancer each year is earlier diagnosis, as we have neck cancers often go a long time before they are heard so eloquently put by the noble Baroness, Lady detected—cancer networks need a comprehensive remit Gardner. The earlier a cancer is diagnosed, the greater to be able to continue delivering the functions mentioned the chance a patient has of surviving it. That is why above. They must continue to play a leading role in the all-party group has long campaigned for the NHS improving outcomes and the experiences of people to be measured against one-year cancer survival rates living with head and neck cancers across the pathway. as well as five-year survival rates for all cancers and all Can the Minister confirm that cancer networks will be ages—not just the common cancers. able to continue delivering functions that cover the That is because in the new health system the NHS whole pathway? Cancer networks have played a leading outcomes framework will be used by the Secretary of role in delivering improved outcomes for rarer cancers, State to hold the NHS Commissioning Board to account including head and neck cancers. I am pleased that the for its performance. As such, it sets the overall direction Government have recognised their value and formally and priorities for the NHS. We were pleased that the established them as strategically clinical networks. Government included one-year and five-year cancer However, significant steps are needed to ensure that survival rates for breast, lung and colorectal cancer for they continue to have a comprehensive remit beyond people aged between 15 and 99 in the NHS outcomes early diagnosis. The Government should be mindful framework. However, as we know, cancer is one of the that severe reductions in resource would make it difficult biggest premature killers in this country and we do not for them to meet their commitment of supporting believe that the current version of the framework goes networks after 2013 and reaching their ultimate ambition far enough. of saving 5,000 lives a year. I would be grateful if the We know that 53% of people who die from cancer Minister could update the Committee on the in the UK have a rarer cancer, such as head and neck. Government’s plans for cancer networks and reassure There is a significant gap in survival rates between people us that they will have sufficient resource, human and with a rarer cancer, such as head and neck cancers, financial, in the system. and those with a more common cancer. For example, I again thank the noble Baroness, Lady Gardner, the five-year survival rate for brain cancer is less than for securing such an important debate. We must not 20% compared with more than 80% for breast cancer. forget that the NHS reforms offer an opportunity to We must take steps to ensure that survival rates for refocus on delivering the best possible cancer care and rarer cancers improve and catch up with those for the outcomes for all patients, including those with head more common cancers such as breast cancer. Across and neck cancers. the board, there is a lot more to do and we need to do more. The APPGC is calling for one-year and five-year 5.53 pm survival rate indicators in the NHS outcomes framework Baroness Morgan of Drefelin: My Lords, I congratulate to be extended to all cancer types. the noble Baroness, Lady Gardner of Parkes, on securing We are pleased that the Government are listening to this important debate and thank her for her very our concerns and know that, as a result, they are informative and helpful introduction. As we move considering developing a composite survival rate indicator GC 445 Health: Cancer[9 OCTOBER 2012] Health: Cancer GC 446 which would include rarer cancers. While we recognise I support the remarks made by the noble Baroness, the efforts being made to address the current absence Lady Jolly, regarding cancer networks. I do not want of focus on rarer cancers, we believe that a composite to repeat the detailed points that she made, but I, indicator should be in addition to, rather than a too, believe strongly that cancer networks have a vital replacement for, existing indicators. There is a very role to play in continuing to drive up standards and important reason why that should be so. It is vital that achieving the Government’s vision to save additional any new indicator provides additional insight into lives. I was concerned to be advised that, with the performance relating to rarer cancers. A composite NHS Commissioning Board undertaking specialist indicator covering all cancers could mask poorer commissioning and CCGs commissioning other aspects performance by the NHS in relation to rarer cancers of patients’ care, patients with head and neck cancers through improvements in relation to the more common could find their care pathway being commissioned by cancers. We should be concerned about that. Can the two entirely different levels of NHS commissioning. Minister say what progress has been made towards That is just one example of the role that cancer networks developing a composite indicator? Would it apply to can play in improving quality, outcomes and the patient those cancers not currently covered in the framework, experience. such as head and neck cancer? Can the Minister reassure us that there will be From Answers that I have seen to parliamentary sufficient staff, including experienced directors? Will Questions it appears that there will be a separate they be retained in each individual cancer network so publication route for the composite indicator. Will the that they can deliver their functions effectively? Can Minister be able to explain that a bit more? Could he he reassure us also that the cancer-specific expertise reassure the Committee that any composite indicator that currently exists in networks will not be lost through will be in addition to existing indicators that are this restructuring and that cancer networks will be already planned and will not serve as a mask for tasked with driving improvements across the whole poorer performance in the less common cancers? cancer journey? As the noble Baroness, Lady Jolly, has While it is vital that the NHS Commissioning Board stressed, it is not just about early diagnosis; cancer is held to account, it will be the clinical commissioning networks have a vital role to play throughout the groups which will play a key role at the local level in patient journey. achieving that additional 5,000 lives saved. The Once again, I congratulate the noble Baroness, commissioning outcomes framework will be used by Lady Gardner of Parkes, on securing this important the NHS Commissioning Board to hold CCGs to debate. It is essential that we use opportunities such as account. In August this year, the Commissioning this to raise awareness of the less common cancers, as Outcomes Framework Advisory Committee published she has most ably done. recommendations for indicators to be included in the framework. The APPG on Cancer was shocked that 6.03 pm only one cancer-specific indicator was included in this recommendation—that of under-75 mortality. It may Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, I, too, welcome be that we have not understood it properly, so I look this debate and thank the noble Baroness for instituting forward to being corrected on that. it and for the very important points that she made. I However, the APPG on Cancer believes that the refer the Committee to my declaration of interests, omission of one-year and five-year cancer survival which includes a number of health interests. I also rate indicators at this level is a serious oversight and a echo the noble Baroness’s remarks about the role of missed opportunity to ensure that every CCG prioritises dentists in this area. She and I have a long-standing not only the earlier diagnosis of cancer but the interest in this profession, and it is important that commissioning of high-quality services. We cannot when we consider what action needs to be taken we understand the reasons for the omission. I have been look at the contribution that dentists can make. assured that, once the boundaries for CCGs have been At the start of the debate, the noble Baroness said it defined, survival data will be available at the CCG was important to draw attention to the increase in the level, so it should be workable. Given all this, can the incidence of several head and neck cancers between Minister support the inclusion of one-year and five-year 1990 and 2006. My understanding from work helpfully cancer survival rates in the outcomes framework for produced by the Library is that we have seen the CCGs? incidence of oral cavity cancers increase by more than 30%, salivary gland cancers by around 37% and palate We are also calling for proxy indicators for cancer cancer by 66%, while that of thyroid cancer has doubled. survival, which are particularly important for less common cancers. They are: stage of cancer at diagnosis, Incidence rates for all types of cancer vary significantly which we have already heard about, and cancers diagnosed between those strategic health authorities and cancer as an emergency admission. We want these to be networks with the lowest and highest incidence, and included in the commissioning outcomes framework the geographical pattern of distribution varies from as quickly as possible because this is about gearing up cancer to cancer. This may well reflect the distribution the services in real time to improve as we go forward. of different risk factors, including those that These measures will provide a more immediate picture predominantly affect certain ethnic groups. We have of where improvements are needed in the early detection to bear that in mind when deciding what action needs of cancer. By assessing the performance of CCGs on to be taken. these through the COF, local commissioners will be It is important to have accurate and up to date encouraged to contract services that improve early information available. I was interested to read the diagnosis. National Head and Neck Cancer Audit 2011 and the GC 447 Health: Cancer[LORDS] Health: Cancer GC 448

[LORD HUNT OF KINGS HEATH] provision of cancer services, not to forget the role of remarks made by Sir Mike Richards, the National hospitals. There is a great danger in the current mantra Cancer Director. He pointed out that there have been that everything is decided through the commissioning further improvements in the completeness of the data network and the role of hospitals is simply to do what submitted, but that more needs to be done. He urged commissioners tell them to do. Obviously, chairing a cancer network directors, medical directors and head foundation trust, I am somewhat biased, but I have to and neck cancer site-specific groups to reflect on this. say that most innovation and most ideas come from Bearing in mind the remarks of the noble Baroness at those hospitals where professionals work—the reality the beginning of our debate, the more accurate information is that mostly they are the people who know what we have, the more we will be able to see the scale of the needs to be done. That is the importance of the cancer issue we face and decide what action needs to be networks. The market mantra is that commissioners taken. I hope that the noble Earl, Lord Howe, will be decide what should be done and then the providers do able to say something about how he thinks we might what they are told, but what we need in future is much improve data collection in the future. The noble Baroness, more of a partnership. That applies to all cancer Lady Morgan, made some important points about services. indicators, outcome measurements and requirements. Does the noble Earl think that clinical senates Again, I hope that the noble Earl will be able to give might play a role in this? I think that we are all signed some comfort to her with regard to looking at an up to the idea of clinical senates, but none of us quite extension of those requirements in the future. knows what they are going to do. It occurred to me I want to reflect on the points raised by all noble that, given the expertise that the senates will have in Lords who have taken part in the debate on the their membership, they might be able to give advice to importance of improving public recognition, early clinical commissioning groups on the effective services diagnosis and treatment. I hope that the noble Earl that need to be provided in relation to cancer services. will be able to say something about how this might be Let me come on to health campaigns. The noble done, and perhaps how the work of GPs and dentists Baroness, Lady Jolly, referred to the need for local might be recognised and what we can do to encourage authorities and Public Health England to work together. those professions to identify symptoms and advise I echo her question about how the department will their patients so as to make sure that where there is a ensure that that happens in the future. suspicion, patients are encouraged to seek diagnosis Finally, I pick up the point raised by the noble and treatment. Baroness, Lady Morgan. It will clearly be important Obviously, the backdrop to this debate will be the that we ensure that enough money is invested in research implementation of the Health and Social Care Act 2012. in these areas—identification, early diagnosis and early The noble Baroness, Lady Jolly, said that the reforms treatment. I wonder if the noble Earl could say a little would allow for a refocus on these issues. I am not bit more about how he thinks research should be quite sure that I agree with her. Her speech was a very invested in in the future. This is a very important good description of why it would have been better if debate and I am sure that we are all grateful to the we had not had the reforms in the first place, and I noble Baroness for instituting it. We look forward to think that there are a number of questions one has to the noble Earl’s response. ask about the architecture. We are looking for some further information about reports that the Government 6.12 pm are going to reduce the number of cancer networks, along with their resources. The noble Baronesses, Lady The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Jolly and Lady Morgan, both spoke about that. It is Department of Health (Earl Howe): My Lords, I begin important to note that the cancer networks have been by thanking my noble friend for tabling today’s debate universally regarded as a good thing that has led to a and for her excellent speech. I am aware that this is a much more co-ordinated response. Given that we are very important issue for her, for everyone who has had now moving towards a much less integrated healthcare a diagnosis of cancer of the head and neck, and for system, there is a real risk in reducing the effectiveness their families and friends. of these networks. The incidence of head and neck cancer in England I would remind the noble Earl of the success of his rose from over 8,300 to over 9,600 between 2007 and department in relation to stroke services in London 2010, while the incidence in the under-65s rose from and the benefit of a strongly co-ordinated approach just over 4,800 in 2007 to over 5,600 in 2010. We know by reducing the number of centres for hyper-acute that for most cancers death rates are set to fall significantly services. That is now being rolled out across the rest of in the coming decades. This is encouraging and highlights the country. Surely we need that kind of co-ordinated the impact of changes in lifestyle, particularly reductions leadership in relation to cancer services. I am not in smoking, and improvements in the speed of diagnosis confident that simply leaving it to a smaller number and the treatment of cancer. As noble Lords have with fewer resources working with clinical commissioning pointed out, there are a number of risk factors that groups will do what is required. I hope that the noble can increase the chances of developing cancer, including Earl will be able to say something more about that. oral cancer. Cancer Research UK has recently estimated I particularly noted the comment made by the that over a third of all cancers are caused by smoking, noble Baroness, Lady Jolly, about the role of cancer unhealthy diets, alcohol and excess weight. networks in helping to select which hospitals should Let me look first at smoking. The Tobacco Control provide specialist services. I very much support that. It Plan for England, published in March 2011, sets out will be important, in thinking through the future three new national ambitions to reduce smoking GC 449 Health: Cancer[9 OCTOBER 2012] Health: Cancer GC 450 prevalence—among adults, among 15 year-olds and in that these are complex measures requiring linkage of pregnancy—and sets out a comprehensive range of ONS population statistics with cancer registry data tobacco control actions at all levels to achieve these and attribution to clinical commissioning groups as ambitions. The Committee will also be aware of Stoptober, well as testing the robustness of the measures. It is a new and innovative campaign that encourages smokers likely to take some months to complete the work that all to start their quit attempt together on 1 October. is currently in train. The commissioning board will As for alcohol, the Government’s alcohol strategy decide, of course, on the content of the commissioning includes a strong package of health measures. These outcomes framework. It is expected to publish a list of build on the introduction of the ring-fenced public measures for 2013-14 in the autumn. If the composite health grant to local authorities and the new health indicators are not included in the 2013-14 framework, and well-being boards, giving local areas the powers to the board may choose a separate publication route for tackle local problems. the data that exist to ensure that the information is Most people know that smoking causes lung cancer available transparently to the public. and sunburn causes skin cancer. However, far fewer I know that there is concern on the part of Macmillan people know that a poor diet, obesity, lack of physical Cancer Support, among others, around proxy indicators. activity and high alcohol consumption are also major I understand that the NHS Commissioning Board risk factors for getting cancer. To deliver on improved Authority is now engaging with clinical commissioning outcomes, public health services will provide people groups and other stakeholder organisations to discuss with information about these risk factors so that they the shape of a commissioning outcomes framework, can make healthy choices. as I mentioned, for 2013 and beyond. We know that HPV is associated with around a quarter of head and neck cancers. The National Institute We recognise that there is a role for dentists in the for Health Research Clinical Research Network is early detection of some head and neck cancers, including currently hosting four trials focusing on the link between mouth or oral cancers. We are working to ensure this, HPV and head and neck cancers. The Medical Research and the new patient pathway currently being trialled Council is also currently supporting two studies relating in 70 practices provides dentists with decision support to the links between HPV and head and neck cancers. based on current best practice. Patients receive comprehensive oral health assessments at regular intervals Late diagnosis is also a cause of avoidable deaths under this pathway. Those assessments require dentists from cancer in England. Generally, as my noble friend to systematically assess the soft tissue as part of the Lady Gardner pointed out, the earlier a patient is clinical examination and include a social and medical diagnosed with cancer, the greater the chance of being history which, through the questions on smoking and successfully treated. In order to achieve earlier diagnosis, drinking, allow the dentist to assess the patient’s level we need to encourage people to recognise the symptoms of risk for oral cancer and, if appropriate, offer advice of cancer and seek advice from their doctor as soon as on lifestyle changes. The pathway is being piloted as possible. We also need doctors—and, where appropriate, part of the work to design a new dental contract. The dentists—to recognise these symptoms as possibly being Government are committed to introducing a new contract cancer and, where appropriate, refer people urgently based on capitation and quality. Supporting dentists for specialist care. The Government have committed to systematically provide high quality care through the over £450 million over this spending review period to pathway is a key part of this. I can tell both my noble improve earlier diagnosis. Through the national awareness friends that the General Dental Council has recently and early diagnosis initiative jointly led by the department confirmed that improving early detection of oral cancer and Cancer Research UK, we are working to improve is to be included as a recommended topic in its continuing earlier diagnosis by raising public awareness of the professional development scheme. More generally, the symptoms of cancer and encouraging earlier presentation. department supports the British Dental Health We are developing a “constellation of symptoms” Foundation which sponsors annually a mouth cancer campaign during January to March 2013 which will action month; officials work closely with the foundation highlight symptoms that might be the result of a as well. number of cancers, including rarer cancers. We will hold the NHS to account for improvements Once head and neck cancer is diagnosed, patients in outcomes through the NHS outcomes framework. need to have access to appropriate and consistent As the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, mentioned, we treatment, delivered to a high standard, across the are working with the London School of Hygiene and board. Improving Outcomes in Head and Neck Cancers, Tropical Medicine to develop a composite survival published in 2004, set out recommendations on the rate indicator which covers all cancers to ensure that treatment, management and care of patients with performance on rarer cancers can be monitored effectively. head and neck cancers. We have made a commitment In addition, there is a cancer mortality indicator that to expand radiotherapy capacity by investing around is shared between the public health outcomes framework £150 million more over four years until 2014-15. and the NHS outcomes framework, which is designed My noble friend Lady Gardner raised the issue of to improve prevention—to reduce incidence—as well public awareness of oral cancer. Work is underway on as improve diagnosis and treatment. the third edition of Delivering Better Oral Health,a The balance between composite and tumour-specific toolkit for the dental team. This will update the section cancer survival indicators always needs to be considered. on tobacco and oral health. A patient-facing version is It is currently being considered. I would say to the also in development which will seek to make the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, on the composite indicator, public more aware. GC 451 Health: Cancer[LORDS] Bangladesh: Human Rights GC 452

[EARL HOWE] The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, asked about research, My noble friend Lady Jolly spoke about vaccination which I agree is important in reducing deaths from and asked why boys, indeed all teenagers, were not cancer. The National Institute for Health Research vaccinated. The Joint Committee on Vaccination and health technology assessment programme is currently Immunisation did not recommend the vaccination of commissioning a feasibility study for assessing the boys because high coverage of the vaccination among clinical and cost effectiveness of photodynamic therapy girls means that it is not cost-effective to vaccinate for the treatment of locally recurrent head and neck boys to prevent cervical cancer. However, as with all cancer. The National Institute for Health Research vaccination programmes, the JCVI keeps its Clinical Research Network is currently hosting 33 trials, recommendations under review. The HPV vaccine is including the four I mentioned earlier, and other well offered free each year under the national programme designed studies into head and neck cancer. to girls aged 12 to 13 in school year eight. That is To conclude, the Government have set out an ambition because the HPV vaccination is best given before the in Improving Outcomes: A Strategy for Cancer to save onset of sexual activity. Routine immunisation started an additional 5,000 lives each year by 2014-15. This in 2008, and a phased catch-up of girls aged up to means halving the gap between England’s current 18 years of age was also implemented. However, scientific survival rates and those at the European best—and evidence is constantly coming forward and the JCVI our aspiration is to be among the best in Europe. As will no doubt take account of that as necessary. my noble friend Lady Gardner has made clear, it is not The noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, spoke about just about saving lives after a diagnosis, it is also about outcome measures for rarer cancers. Of course, she is preventing the cancers to start with. The Government’s quite right that early diagnosis is important in rarer strategies for prevention are designed to tackle increasing cancers as it is everywhere else; we are addressing that, incidence. as I have mentioned. It is also important to improve treatment, and the recent announcement on radiotherapy 6.25 pm means that access will be improved for specialised radiotherapy treatments such as stereotactic radiosurgery, Sitting suspended. used predominantly for brain tumours. Proton beam therapy is also an area that we are looking at closely. We are developing two proton beam therapy facilities, Bangladesh: Human Rights in Manchester and London, to be operational by the Question for Short Debate end of 2017. This treatment improves outcomes for a number of rarer cancers, including those which affect 6.31 pm children. Asked By Lord Hussain My noble friend Lady Jolly asked what plans the Government have to address the issue of underage To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment drinking while in the home. The new “Change for they have made of the human rights situation in Life”programme helps people check if they are drinking Bangladesh, in the light of reports of disappearances above the lower-risk guidelines or not, and offers tips of well-known politicians. and tools to cut down. Dame Sally Davies, the Chief Medical Officer, will be overseeing a UK-wide review Lord Hussain: My Lords, for at least a decade I of the alcohol guidelines so that people at all stages of knew Bangladesh to be only a progressive, multi-party life can make informed choices about their drinking. democracy and a thriving economy in south-east Asia. The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, and my noble friend It also receives £250 million in aid from the United Lady Jolly spoke about clinical networks. The final Kingdom every year—until 2015, at least. However, in number of strategic clinical networks, and therefore the past few years reports of corruption, torture, the number of doctors, nurses and others who will extrajudicial killing and the sudden disappearance of support them, will be determined locally to meet the journalists and political activists from opposition parties needs of patients. The full structure for strategic clinical have energised me to call for this debate. networks will be published shortly. The establishment According to Amnesty International, hardly a week of clinical networks, hosted and funded by the NHS goes by in Bangladesh without people being shot in Commissioning Board, will ensure that patients Rapid Action Battalion, or RAB, operations. The everywhere in England benefit from dedicated clinical RAB is a special police force created to combat criminal networks for four priority conditions and patient groups: gang activity throughout the country. However, since cancer, cardiovascular disease, maternity and children’s its inception in 2004 the RAB has been implicated in services, and mental heath, dementia and neurological the unlawful killing of at least 700 people. The Amnesty conditions. These networks will receive £42 million of International report goes on to say that such deaths national funding in the next financial year. We anticipate are typically explained away as accidental or as a that these strategic networks will be supported and result of RAB officers acting in self-defence, as victims funded through the 12 network support teams. These are said to have been killed in “crossfire”. In many teams will be hosted, again, by the NHS Commissioning cases, the victims were killed following arrest. Nevertheless, Board local area teams. We anticipate an arrangement investigations carried out either by the RAB or by a that would see support teams employing their skills government-appointed judicial body have not resulted across different networks as needed, but one that in judicial prosecution. The outcome of the judicial would also involve designated subject experts such as investigations has remained secret and the RAB has those with expertise in cancer commissioning. consistently denied responsibility for any unlawful GC 453 Bangladesh: Human Rights[9 OCTOBER 2012] Bangladesh: Human Rights GC 454 killings. RAB officials say that other wrong-doings to secure his safe return. The family firmly believes have been addressed through administrative action that government secret agents or the Rapid Action against offending RAB personnel. Reports that the Battalion are responsible for Mr Ali and his driver’s RAB has widely used torture and excessive force have abduction. These fears are shared by many both in the similarly gone nowhere. Despite persistent allegations, country and abroad. According to Amnesty International: Bangladeshi authorities have taken no action to prosecute “His is the latest in the spate of disappearances in which RAB personnel. I shall give some of the examples in security forces, including the Rapid Action Battalion ( RAB) have the report. been implicated, though they deny detaining those missing”. Rahima Khatun was shot in the head by Rapid Its report goes on to say: Action Battalion officers on 3 June 2011 in a slum “There appears to be a pattern of disappearances—a concentrated near the central Bangladesh district of Narsingdi. effort to eliminate people deemed undesirable”. Rahima, aged 35, had objected when officers tried to On the investigation procedures, the Amnesty report arrest her husband. Seconds later, she was seriously further adds: injured by a bullet fired from one of their weapons. “Prime responsibility for investigating deaths during RAB Now out of danger after receiving intensive medical actions has so far fallen to the RAB itself. This is a clear conflict care and detained for allegedly dealing in drugs, she is of interest. When the accused is tasked with investigating an the first woman known to have been shot by the Rapid accusation against it, the basic principles of independence and Action Battalion. impartiality are compromised. The accused is free to destroy the evidence, distort the records and engineer the outcome. The Another example is Limon Hossain. On 23 March content of RAB inquiries remains secret; their results have repeatedly 2011, Limon, a 16 year-old student, was shot in the leg been the same. None of the publicly available RAB investigations by RAB officers in Jhalakathi. His injuries were so has ever blamed RAB personnel for an extrajudicial killing; severe that four days later his leg had to be amputated. rather, these investigations, where they have occurred, have blamed Limon Hossain’s family said that he had been shot the victims, calling them criminals and portraying their deaths as while bringing the cattle back from the fields. Like the justified”. families of many other victims, they said that the RAB War crimes tribunals are another anomaly that I am had no reason to shoot Limon and that the officers sure the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, will probably have involved should be brought to justice. something to say about. There are other cases where deaths are not explained. With that information, I should like to ask the In some cases, the RAB has not even explained how Minister whether the Foreign Secretary would raise people whom witnesses say were detained by the RAB the question of human rights abuses with the Bangladeshi were later found dead. Nazmul Huq Murad, Forkan Prime Minister and ask for fair trials for the accused. Ahmed and Mizanur Rahman went missing on 17 April Can UK aid to Bangladesh be linked to its human 2010. On 18 April, Murad’s brother received an rights record? Finally, can I ask the Minister to pressurise anonymous phone call saying that Murad was in RAB the Bangladesh Government for Ilias Ali and his custody. The family’s inquiries brought no news of driver’s safe recovery and release? him until 27 April, when his body was found in the Mohammadpur area of Dhaka. It was buried in a 6.40 pm ditch with the other two men, Forkan and Mizanur. Lord Harris of Haringey: My Lords, we are all The bodies bore severe injuries, including knife wounds. grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Hussain, for securing Ligature marks on the wrists showed that they had this debate on an extremely important issue. For me, been tied with rope. The families of Mizanur and this is a follow-on from the Oral Question that I asked Forkan had also received messages that the two had on 23 May about what representations had been made been arrested by the RAB on 17 April. The RAB has about the disappearance of Mr Ilias Ali and other not acknowledged that the men were in its custody opposition politicians in Bangladesh. and no credible investigation has ensued. According to the human rights organisation Ain O Salish Kendra, In his Reply, the noble Lord, Lord Howell of Guildford, known as ASK, 216 deaths occurred in custody this who was then Minister of State at the Foreign and year, including 116 deaths in prison. Many of the Commonwealth Office, talked about the representations deaths were allegedly the result of torture. that had been made by the United Kingdom Government with eight other EU countries, when they had called I turn to the disappearance of a former Member of on the Bangladesh authorities to conduct a thorough the Bangladesh Parliament, Mr Ilias Ali, and his driver. investigation into Mr Ali’s disappearance. In reply, I According to Amnesty International, Ilias Ali, the hope that the Minister will be able to tell us what organising secretary of the Sylhet division of the further representations or further dialogue there have opposition Bangladesh Nationalist Party, disappeared been with the Government of Bangladesh since that together with his driver, Ansar Ali, on 17 April 2012. I Answer given by the noble Lord, Lord Howell. had the opportunity of meeting Mr Ilias Ali in Luton during his visit to the United Kingdom in 2011. He At that meeting, the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, spoke to a hall full of British Bangladeshis passionately who is to speak after me, raised the question of whether about Bangladesh and showed his concerns on the it was possible to engage the UN working party on growing human rights situation and corruption in that disappearances. I would be interested to hear what the country. He did raise fears about his own safety on his noble Baroness can tell us about whether that engagement return, but was determined to go back and fight for took place. the rights of his people through democratic means. Interestingly, the noble Lord, Lord Howell, in his Since his disappearance, his family has been in touch responses to various questions on that date, referred with me asking for help from the British Government to £1 billion of aid being given by the UK Government. GC 455 Bangladesh: Human Rights[LORDS] Bangladesh: Human Rights GC 456

[LORD HARRIS OF HARINGEY] of which are attributable to the Rapid Action Battalion. I am not clear about whether he was aggregating I will ask my noble friend, pursuant to the question of several years together, but it is important that the the noble Lord, Lord Harris—we have not really had Government address whether there is a relationship an answer—what the Government have done to persuade between the sums involved, over whatever period, and Bangladesh to ratify the International Convention for the human rights record. Is that something that can the Protection of All Persons from Enforced legitimately be expected as a quid pro quo for the support Disappearance, and what they have done to persuade that this country gives to the people of Bangladesh? the Bangladesh Government to issue visitor invitations The most important point to make in this debate is to the working group on enforced and involuntary that the case of Mr Ilias Ali is not an isolated one. disappearances, the special rapporteur on extrajudicial Mr Ali and his driver disappeared on 18 April, and executions, or the special rapporteur on torture. As far two weeks earlier Mr Aminul Islam, a leader of the as I know, the Bangladesh Government have not issued Bangladesh Garment and Industrial Workers Federation, invitations to any of these groups, so there is no open was allegedly picked up by members of a law enforcement invitation for these mechanisms to come to Bangladesh. agency and horribly tortured and killed. In December I will talk about recent attacks on minority 2011, Nazmul Islam, another opposition politician, communities. I will begin with the mob violence against was found strangled just a few hours after he had been indigenous Paharis in Rangamati on 22 September, in dancing with his wife. His wife received very little which an estimated 60 people were injured, eight of assistance from the police when she reported him whom were admitted to hospital. The three co-chairs missing. I would be grateful for guidance from the of the Chittagong Hill Tracts Commission—of whom Minister on her understanding of the developments I am one, and declare my interest accordingly—wrote that there have been in the investigations of these cases to the Prime Minister, Sheikh Hasina, calling on her since then. to instigate a full and impartial investigation of the What is the Government’s latest assessment of the event and ensure that the perpetrators are brought to level of political violence in Bangladesh? We need to justice. The problem is that whenever these attacks understand that. One of the most concerning features occur, the police and army are either nowhere to be of this is the alleged complicity of law enforcement seen or, if they are there, stand idly by and allow the agencies, in particular the Rapid Action Battalion. violence and destruction to continue. The noble Lord, Lord Hussain, gave us a horrifying Another instance was the orgy of destruction of catalogue of cases which, it is suggested, are associated Buddhist temples and houses starting in Ramu on the with their activities. There seems to be a culture of evening of 29 September and extending to a number impunity among the security forces, and anyone who of other centres before it was finally brought under falls foul of the authorities is therefore vulnerable. control. More than 20 temples and monasteries, including Since 2004, there have been more than 1,600 extrajudicial one at Sima Bahar dating from 1706, and at least one killings in Bangladesh. To UK eyes, there are horrifying Hindu temple, were torched, as well as scores of levels of political violence, with 300 people killed in houses and shops. Muslim houses in the same areas 2006, 250 in 2009 and so on. were left untouched, proving that local people were We have to recognise that political violence is not involved. The police officer in charge said that he was all on one side. There has perhaps been a trend in unable to stop the rampage because 10,000 marauders Bangladeshi politics for supporters of the ruling party— arrived from elsewhere in lorries, well armed with whichever one that might be—to feel that they are able gunpowder and petrol, machetes, sticks, iron rods and to attack opposition supporters with a certain level of tomahawks. The following day the mobs descended on impunity. I think that comes from the broad powers Patia in Chittagong and Ukhia in Cox’s Bazar, where that the law gives to the Government, which means again they were able to destroy sacred Buddhist relics, that the Government of the day is, in effect, given books and temples, and to burn houses to the ground control of the police as one of the spoils of victory. without the police intervening. Bangladesh is a fragile democracy and one of the These events should be seen in the context of previous poorest nations of the world—though one with attacks on Buddhist monasteries and indigenous people tremendous potential if it is given an opportunity. The in the CHT, motivated by land grabbing. In this instance, levels of political violence and alleged abuse of state too, the competition for land in a lawless situation power to suppress the opposition reflect very badly on may have been a material factor. In the letter to Sheikh the Government of that country, and on the efforts Hasina that I mentioned, we reiterated our concern that are being made to generate wealth and development that much of the violence in the CHT is related to the there. I have a simple question for Her Majesty’s land disputes between Pahari and Bengali settlers. We Government. What can they do to make clear that pointed out that the land commission had failed to such violence and attacks on opposition politicians rule on a single dispute in the three years of its are not acceptable? What further representations have existence, that it is now without a chairman and that been made, and what are planned? Is this being made its rules of procedure are still under review. a condition of future aid? The Prime Minister assured Buddhist leaders that those responsible for the appalling crimes would be 6.45 pm prosecuted, and 300 people were reportedly arrested. Lord Avebury: My Lords, I, too, congratulate my However, a general investigation of the facts, covering noble friend Lord Hussain on initiating the debate, the failure of the police to act when there were warnings and in particular on focusing on the horrible catalogue several hours ahead of the impending violence, and of disappearances and extrajudicial executions, most the relationship of this attack on a vulnerable minority GC 457 Bangladesh: Human Rights[9 OCTOBER 2012] Bangladesh: Human Rights GC 458 to others of a similar nature, should be conducted citizens to use that infrastructure and develop local under the chairmanship of someone independent of ownership of what policy-making is about, rather the police, the political parties and the heavily politicised than the frustrations that have been referred to. judiciary. The third area is to work with partners in rural Finally, there are widespread concerns about the areas of poverty, particularly to help single women conduct of the war crimes trials. At the request of and households headed by women to take a full part in the All-Party Parliamentary Human Rights Group, economic development. Christian Aid Bangladesh is the International Bar Association assessed the legislative working, with its partners, in something like 175 villages, framework of the tribunal in 2010 and concluded that with 17,000 people involved. The issue I would invite it fell short of recognised international standards and the Minister to comment on is that clearly there are that it required reform. The IBA, the US war crimes major issues about political violence, as we have just ambassador Steven Rapp and others have also criticised heard, and the use possibly of security infrastructure the court’s procedures and the evident bias of the to deliver on that. Particularly in the way we use aid, tribunal chairman. To address these concerns, and consider the future use of aid, to what extent can the Parliamentary Human Rights Group is asking the the Government take into account and encourage the IBA to conduct a fresh assessment of the tribunal, its kind of capacity-building of responsible citizenship procedures and practices to date in relation to international among different groups that seems to be the only standards, seeking advice from Ambassador Rapp, the long-term hope for trying to create an atmosphere and UN High Commissioner for Human Rights and its a sense of responsibility of mutuality whereby people special procedures mechanisms. These proceedings are with different traditions and economic pressures might no longer a matter for leisurely discussion by legal learn to work together, and therefore to undermine the scholars. The tribunal’s failings, and the looming threat pressures that surface, as we have seen in these horrific of the death penalty on conviction of the defendants, mutual attacks between groups and the killing of are a stark reality. For this reason, I hope that the IBA enemies? will give this request priority and that when my noble friend the Minister comes to reply, she will give her blessing to the request. 6.55 pm Baroness Uddin: My Lords, I declare my interest as 6.51 pm an honorary president of the All-Party Parliamentary The Lord Bishop of Derby: My Lords, I, too, thank Group on Bangladesh, which I chaired for more than the noble Lord, Lord Hussain, for securing this debate. six years. I want to concentrate on the briefing provided We have heard some very powerful speeches about the by the chair of the APPG, who has only recently horrific level of direct political violence, as well as the returned from a visit to Bangladesh. I will restrict my noble Lord, Lord Avebury, introducing the wider context comments to the briefing and particularly raise the of a culture of abuse of human rights. I will pursue matter of the empowerment of women and the UK’s that in a slightly wider sense, first, in terms of the role and support. treatment of the Rohingya refugees, who are Muslims. Over the past three and a half years, the Bangladeshi The director of Human Rights Watch says that the Government have taken some positive steps, including camps they are in are some of the worst in the world enacting the law against domestic violence and introducing and that the Government seem to have no strategy for a national policy to advance women’s rights. The dealing with that problem. The Government of course Government have taken an important step to protect claim that they lack resources, as a poor country, to the rights of minorities. They passed the Vested Properties deal with all these refugees and there is an issue about Return Act, and the Cabinet also approved the Hindu whether they are turning them away or trying to send Marriage Registration Bill. While I understand and people back. I ask the Minister and the Government, accept that Bangladesh has a strong set of laws to not least in relation to our investment in aid, what we tackle violence against women, implementation remains can do to support efforts in capacity-building for good poor. We would all acknowledge that. That is reflected citizenship and changing a culture where this inter-group in an article written yesterday, although I have not violence is so destructive. seen much of it, on the increasing number of underage I declare an interest as a trustee of Christian Aid marriages that are taking place. That is of deep concern. and want to give three little examples of what Christian I know that we are all familiar with the commitment Aid Bangladesh is doing to build capacity between of the Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition different groups for more harmonious living and better to advancing women’s empowerment, and I am sure citizenship. First, there is a human rights education that the current Government will be concerned by the and community mediation programme, which is trying matters we are raising today. to change the mindsets of people who find themselves I know that the chair of the APPG has raised these potentially in conflict. It is working particularly with issues with leading figures in Bangladesh and with women, who are often marginalised from any participation organisations in the field, as has Secretary of State processes, and is trying to establish local organisations Hillary Clinton, who visited Dhaka this year, most for mediation and proper, civilised engagement around notably on human rights. She raised her concerns issues rather than the direct action that the noble publicly during her visit. The fact that Bangladesh has Lord, Lord Avebury, has just been referring to. increased its visibility and presence in international The second piece of work is to improve participation forums and is seeking to enhance its reputation gives by different groups in local government. Again, the us all an opportunity to progress some of the concerns infrastructure is in its infancy. This is trying to encourage that have been raised. GC 459 Bangladesh: Human Rights[LORDS] Bangladesh: Human Rights GC 460

[BARONESS UDDIN] significantly its budget to enable the development of During my time as the chair of the APPG, I deepened large-scale projects through, I believe, the NGO, the my knowledge about Bangladesh and have come to Manusher Jonno Foundation. It provides training, know much more about governance in Bangladesh, to advocacy and seminars on women’s rights to minority which I had not paid much attention in previous years. women in Bangladesh. However, from what we are Of course I should say that it is where I was born and I hearing and according to these reports, the impact have family ties. I therefore visit frequently and have seems to have been very limited. This are many questions some understanding of what is happening on the for DfID to answer. Can the Minister tell us how ground. I listened carefully to what noble Lords said DfID is evaluating this programme vis-à-vis the concerns and it pains me to hear about the harrowing incidents raised both in this debate and by some human rights and experiences that they referred to. I shall not comment organisations? Are there specific criteria for increasing on them because it would surely just be repetition. women’s participation and strategies to counter violence I would add my voices to those, including my noble against women and ensure the protection of minority friend Lord Avebury, who are calling for an internationally rights? If so, how does DfID explain these continuing recognised practice and procedure to be adopted by concerns? the International Crimes Tribunal. As someone who lived amidst the tragedy of the 1971 liberation war, I 7.02 pm understand the deep-seated grievances of those who Baroness Brinton: My Lords, I, too, congratulate experienced and witnessed rape, pillage and death, my noble friend Lord Hussain on securing this important and the desire and need of the victims of those atrocities debate on a subject that, frankly, needs to be discussed in 1971 for justice and closure. So we must welcome more openly for the safety of politics and democracy some of the recent amendments to improve the procedures in Bangladesh but, more importantly, to save the lives of the tribunal to ensure that the law and the trial of those who dare to oppose the Government. process meet international fair trial standards. I can For those of us who remember Bangladesh 40 years only imagine that the Bangladeshi Government would ago—the bitterly fought war, the emergence of the be interested in that. new nation, as well as the many natural disasters that Despite what has been said by some noble Lords, I Bangladesh has had to face—we recognise that this is should like to observe that there is significant independent a country struggling against many odds. Most of us coverage in the media of some of these issues, including have watched and willed Bangladesh to take its place disappearances and the deaths of journalists, as well as an open and emerging democracy in the 21st century. as crossfire killings. We are not alone in raising these But the recent, continuing and increasing disappearances matters. of people, especially politicians, is worrying. With elections due next year, it does not take much to see Human rights violation is not a phenomenon that that the silencing of opposition individuals who may is the exclusive prerogative of any one nation. As we either be a threat to or a thorn in the side of the all know, we in Britain have been accused of blatantly current Government is a useful but illegal tool. As has disregarding or ridiculing human rights both in the already been referred to by my noble friend, Human recent past and historically. It is therefore imperative Rights Watch and Amnesty International have both that we ensure, whenever questions arise about the catalogued very specific examples in shocking detail. violation of citizens’ rights, that natural justice and Prime Minister Sheikh Hasina says that her Government due process is fundamentally adhered to in all that we have zero tolerance for extrajudicial killings, but she do, so that we can ask our friends to do the same. has singularly failed to investigate allegations properly I have had a brief look at the many briefings about or to bring the perpetrators to book. Actions speak the UN reports that were sent out in the past 12 hours louder than words. and observed that there is a huge distinction between One of the most publicised disappearances, already the language used for the developed world and that referred to, has been that of Ilias Ali and his driver. I used for the developing world. There seems to be a will not go over the details of that case, but I will say sense of superiority when referring to human rights that when the Prime Minister asked the police to violations in other countries, which makes it easy for investigate, she also accused him, quite extraordinarily, those countries—who are, if you like, on the other of going into hiding so that his own party could cast side—to accuse us of double standards. We must be guilt on the ruling Awami League party. Protests at the cautious when advocating human rights that we are time objecting to politicians’ disappearances were quelled advocating something to be practised everywhere, not by tear gas, batons and bullets from the local police. just in one particular country. Deep concerns are More recently, and perhaps more worryingly, when expressed in the briefing material about the impact of Sheikh Hasina was being feted in the UK during the the moratorium on schooling approved by the Olympics, she had ordered the arrest of Mir Quasem Government. This is impacting in a massive scale on Ali, a leading member of the Islamist party Jamaat-e- girls’ education. I believe that DfID programmes support Islami, who is well known both as a politician and many of these schools, although not directly. I would through his ability to reach people through the Jamaat therefore ask the Minister: should DfID work with newspaper and media group. It appears that his real some of the existing charities to ensure that schools crime has been to criticise the war crimes tribunal set remain open? up by Hasina, which seems to take a very retributional I would also ask the Minister: how does DfID approach rather than the justice and reconciliation strategy sit vis-à-vis women’s empowerment in examples set in South Africa and, more recently, Northern Bangladesh? I understand that DfID has increased Ireland. I hope that Bangladesh might turn to look at GC 461 Bangladesh: Human Rights[9 OCTOBER 2012] Bangladesh: Human Rights GC 462 that model. During the Olympics when Sheikh Hasina proper strings attached to any aid we might provide. had a meeting with Ed Miliband, she gave a public Worriesabout terrorism should not permit state-sponsored undertaking that, terrorism. “all the future elections in Bangladesh will be held in a complete fair and neutral manner”. 7.08 pm Let us hope that that is the case. There are other human rights issues too, on which Lord Carlile of Berriew: My Lords, perhaps I may others have touched. There has long been concern at take a minute in the gap of this important and timely UN and international level about the role of women in debate. I have been taking an interest in the war crimes Bangladeshi society, with a real worry that female trials in Bangladesh. As a result, the Bangladesh law education still is restricted to suitable domestic training. Minister, Shafique Ahmed, came to see me recently at With a woman head of state, that is ironic. Forced his request. I asked him if I could take a group of marriage for young girls also remains a real problem, senior lawyers of all parties from your Lordships’ to which the noble Baroness, Lady Uddin, referred House to see the war crimes tribunal and to have open earlier. access to everyone concerned, including the defendants One man who has done much to develop the economic in their place of incarceration. He agreed to this in independence of poor women in Bangladesh has felt principle and was very clear about his agreement. But the wrath of the Bangladeshi Prime Minister. We that was done orally. I now await written confirmation know Mohammed Yunus as the Nobel Prize winner that that can take place. who, more than 30 years ago, almost single-handedly However, I have been awaiting that written developed microcredit for women desperately trying confirmation for a considerable time, which is beginning to survive on not even subsistence-level incomes. Lauded to concern me. I would be very grateful if the Minister, across the world, and teaching other countries how to in her response to this debate, would confirm that it is model his Grameen Bank, most would assume that he the Government’s view that such a visit would be would be equally celebrated at home in Bangladesh for timely; that it would give the potential to assess properly his work that has saved the lives of millions, and has the war crimes tribunals; and that the Bangladesh given meaning and brought income to millions more Government should be encouraged to comply with the women—but not a bit of it. It is said that the Prime oral assurance that they have already given. Minister thought that she should have received the Nobel Prize herself. 7.09 pm Regardless of that, there has been a very public vendetta against him. I am told that there is a Bangladeshi Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: My Lords, I, too, must word for this and I apologise if I pronounce it wrongly. thank the noble Lord, Lord Hussain, for initiating this It is “hinghsa”, which means vindictiveness or jealousy. important debate. Following discussions with some This seems to be a state form of jealousy. As a result, Bangladeshi friends at the beginning of September, it Mr Yunus has been forced to retire from the Grameen was an issue that I, too, intended to pursue, but I am Bank at short notice on a technicality and a public very grateful to the noble Lord for doing so. These are tribunal. The Government say that they have the right matters of great concern to many people in this country, to do this because the Grameen Bank is a government including the diaspora, many of whom are not only bank, but the majority of it is held by very small concerned about individual cases but are deeply ashamed stakeholders with the Government owning 3%. of what is happening in their country. My noble friend Lord Hussain referred to the specific This debate also provides me with an opportunity issues of the Rapid Action Battalion in Bangladesh. I personally to welcome the noble Baroness, Lady Warsi, want to raise one matter that so far has not come up. to her new post. The noble Lord, Lord Howell of In the past, the UK has provided training for the Guildford, was an excellent FCO Minister and I put RAB, which is worrying. I understand that the staff on record my personal appreciation of his diligent from the NPIA have also taught the RAB appropriate work in the Lords at all times. However, I know that intervention and interviewing techniques that meet the noble Baroness will herself do a splendid job. international standards. But the flagrant breaches of Of course, we celebrate the fact that Bangladesh is these standards by the RAB must now cause us to a democracy—albeit a fragile one—and there are some question whether we can continue with this training. It good things happening in the country, not least the is interesting that for exactly this reason the US has empowerment of women thanks to the Grameen Bank, now stopped training in this method and financial which now has projects in Glasgow and on the west support. coast of Scotland. That is an interesting development It also is worthy of note that the World Bank and in our north-south relationship. We have much for the IMF have delayed payments and loans to Bangladesh which to thank Mr Yunus, who I believe is a very fine because they are so concerned about the situation man. there. Despite that, we still provide £250 million a year However, this afternoon, we have heard some very to Bangladesh in aid through DfID. Surely, the time disturbing facts and figures about torture, murder and has come for us to review this in light of the human enforced disappearances, including of politicians. Indeed, rights cases, especially those designed to undermine we have heard of some horrific cases of torture leading and prevent the democratic process from taking place, to death. This is an intolerable situation in any country as a matter of urgency. Please can the Minister let us but especially in a democracy which is a member of know what the Government are going to do to ensure the Commonwealth. The rule of law should be an either that payments are withheld or that there are integral part of any democracy, especially in a country GC 463 Bangladesh: Human Rights[LORDS] Bangladesh: Human Rights GC 464

[BARONESS ROYALL OF BLAISDON] because the poorest people need that in order to be that is part of our Commonwealth family. These are empowered. Therefore, I hope that we are able to the actions that one might associate with a lawless, support the work that Christian Aid is doing. despotic state, not a 21st-century democracy. I was interested to hear what the noble Lord, Lord As we have heard, Amnesty International, Human Carlile, said about the war crimes tribunal and the Rights Watch and other human rights organisations invitation to him and Members of this House, and I believe that there is a pattern of enforced disappearances very much look forward to the answer from the noble in Bangladesh, with the abduction and persecution of Baroness. Like the noble Lords, Lord Avebury and specific groups of people seeking to protect vulnerable Lord Harris, I would also be interested to learn whether groups or running opposition party campaigns. It is the UN working party on disappearances has been clear that human rights defenders, trade union activists, invited to Bangladesh. If not, we should encourage student activists and opposition party members have Bangladesh to issue an invitation and, together with been targeted, and it appears that Bangladeshi security our European and Commonwealth friends, put pressure forces have been involved in the disappearances— on the country to ensure that the working party is particularly the Rapid Action Battalion. Like the noble invited in to do the work that it really must do to Baroness, Lady Brinton, I question whether it is any ensure that there are no further disappearances and to longer appropriate for us to provide training for the find out what has happened to those people who so RAB, and I would welcome the Minister’s comments tragically have disappeared. on that. I understand that the Bangladeshi Prime Minister pledged to ensure that extrajudicial executions would 7.15 pm be stopped, but the killings and disappearances continue. The Senior Minister of State, Department for Indeed, there have been 216 deaths just this year. As Communities and Local Government & Foreign and my noble friend Lord Harris of Haringey said, there is Commonwealth Office (Baroness Warsi): My Lords, a culture of impunity no matter who is in power in this is my first debate in my new job. I thank the noble Bangladesh, and that must be stopped. Baroness, Lady Royall of Blaisdon, for her kind remarks. The noble Lord, Lord Avebury, drew attention to The noble Lord, Lord Howell, was indeed a formidable the violence against minority communities in Bangladesh. Foreign Office Minister and truly will be a hard act to For example, more than 20 Buddhist temples and follow. It is apt that this is my first debate. My mother monasteries and at least one Hindu temple, along with always says of my birth that Bangladesh was born a scores of homes and shops, were set on fire during few days before I was, and indeed last year I had the attacks in the southern cities of Cox’s Bazar and privilege of celebrating my 40th birthday as Bangladesh Chittagong earlier this month, according to Amnesty celebrated its 40th. International reports. I thank my noble friend Lord Hussain for introducing The noble Baroness, Lady Uddin, spoke of laws this important debate. I have found it both informative that have been passed to protect minority communities and stimulating. I know that noble Lords have taken a and to ensure the empowerment of women. However, close interest in the human rights record of Bangladesh, these laws have to be implemented, and the action of including reports of disappearances. Human rights government forces, with the culture of impunity, is remain a crucial component of our bilateral and counter to the laws that have been passed. multilateral discussions with Bangladesh and form a I was interested to learn of the assurance given by key part of my role as Senior Minister at the Foreign Sheikh Hasina to my right honourable friend Ed Office. At the start of this Government, my right Miliband. I will discuss that with him to see how we honourable friend the Foreign Secretary made it absolutely might ensure that the next elections really are free and clear that human rights are essential to and indivisible fair and bring about the necessary changes in Bangladesh. from the UK’s foreign policy objectives. While the UK enjoys a strong and long-standing relationship with What discussions are we now having with the Bangladesh, we will not shirk from our responsibility Bangladeshi Prime Minister and his Government to highlight our concerns about human rights. bilaterally, at EU level and through the Commonwealth The UK Government are concerned, as are many to ensure that these abominable practices cease? What noble Lords here today, over reports of disappearances progress has been made since the noble Lord, Lord in Bangladesh. I note that reports from human rights Howell, answered the Oral Question from my noble organisations suggest that 24 disappearances and more friend in May? than 60 extrajudicial killings have taken place between The noble Lord, Lord Hussain, quite rightly drew January and September this year. My noble friend the attention to the development aid that we give to Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Alistair Burt, Bangladesh. While I would certainly not wish to put visited Bangladesh this year and raised the subject of the poorest people in Bangladesh in harm or to jeopardise disappearances directly with the Bangladeshi Prime their futures, I wonder whether there is any way of Minister, Sheikh Hasina, as well as the leader of the linking human rights to the future provision of Bangladesh Nationalist Party, Khaleda Zia. He also development aid. raised the disappearance of the well known politician, The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Derby Mr Ilias Ali, the organising secretary for the Bangladesh spoke of the excellent work of Christian Aid in capacity- Nationalist Party and former MP for Sylhet. I had the building, among other things. Although I recognise privilege of meeting Mr Ali when he came to London that our aid will be targeted at the poorest people, I in 2011, as did a number of parliamentarians. I note very much hope that it also includes capacity-building, with concern that he has been missing since 17 April. GC 465 Bangladesh: Human Rights[9 OCTOBER 2012] Bangladesh: Human Rights GC 466

However, I can inform noble Lords that since the non-governmental organisations. The Government of response given by the noble Lord, Lord Howell, in Bangladesh receive no direct budgetary support from May this year, we have continued to urge the Government the British Government. Any reduction would be felt of Bangladesh to investigate fully any reports of hardest by the people who need it most, including disappearances. Indeed, at a meeting with Sheikh Hasina women whose empowerment is a key part of the DfID and the Bangladeshi Minister for Foreign Affairs, programme. Dr Dipu Moni, on 28 July, my right honourable friend The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Derby the Foreign Secretary noted Members’ concerns and raised the important work of Christian Aid. Like urged the Government of Bangladesh to conduct other noble Lords, he rightly asked whether we could thorough investigations. The British High Commission link DfID aid to human rights. I simply say yes—by in Dhaka continues to make representations to the avoiding direct budgetary support. Where we have authorities on this matter and has been assured that concerns we have done just that. every effort continues to be made to establish the circumstances of any disappearances, including that The noble Lord, Lord Harris, asked about the UN of Mr Ali and his driver. Indeed, I raised our concerns working party on disappearances. This is a non- just last Friday with Foreign Minister Moni. I can governmental body through which UN member states assure the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Haringey, that cannot raise specific cases or specific countries. However, we will continue to raise these matters. I will explore that further and write to him. This afternoon noble Lords have raised broader My noble friend Lord Avebury raised the issue of concerns about democracy and human rights in war crime trials. The British Government support the Bangladesh. As noble Lords may be aware, Bangladesh principle of war crime trials to hold to account those has a population of more than 150 million people who may be guilty of crimes committed during the living in an area the size of England and Wales. It is a war of independence. The noble Baroness, Lady Uddin, physically fragile country and one of the poorest in raised some important points in relation to her own which the UK’s Department for International experience of that period. We also believe that it is Development works. In a country where one in three essential that any trial meets appropriate human rights people lives below the national poverty line and 80% standards. Defendants should be given a fair trial, of people live on less than $2 a day, the need for including the right to conduct a proper defence, and support is clear. Problems with infrastructure and trials should be open and transparent. We have called recurring hartals do not foster an environment for on the Bangladesh Government, publicly and privately, growth. Added to this, Bangladesh has a difficult to ensure that trials meet appropriate international political history and is set to hold elections as early as standards, and we will continue to do so. next year. With EU partners, the UK also continues to make Strong, independent and democratic institutions clear our strong opposition to the application of the working under the rule of law are fundamental to the death penalty in all circumstances. This is quite pertinent Bangladesh of tomorrow and to the nature of when tomorrow we will remember the annual day UK-Bangladesh co-operation. This is why respect for against the death penalty. human rights is integral to the UK’s large development The UK, along with EU partners and other likeminded assistance programme in Bangladesh. Alongside its countries, will continue to follow the progress of work providing basic services to the poorest and most the war crime trials. We regularly discuss them with vulnerable in Bangladesh, DfID invests heavily in other interested groups, including non-governmental strengthening civil and political rights, provides extensive organisations. The UK has not offered any legal observers. support to civil society organisations to help marginalised However, the Government of Bangladesh have stated communities demand their rights, and promotes more publicly that they would welcome independent monitoring. accountable policing and access to justice. It is vital Any foreign-funded project, including trial observation, that law enforcement officials and the judiciary are would require the approval of the NGO affairs bureau impartial and empowered to investigate any complaints in Bangladesh. fairly and transparently. My noble friend Lord Avebury made specific proposals. I am encouraged by assurances from the Government I will consider them and respond in writing, as I will of Bangladesh that they are committed to protecting do to the question raised by my noble friend Lord human rights and follow a zero-tolerance policy on Carlile of Berriew. extra-judicial killings and torture. However, human rights will remain a crucial component of our bilateral My noble friend Lady Brinton raised concerns about and multilateral discussions with Bangladesh, as it did the treatment of Muhammad Yunus of Grameen Bank. when the Foreign Secretary met the Prime Minister on The British Government have huge respect and admiration 28 July. This is a country with enormous development for Professor Yunus. We strongly support the work of potential that is making incredible progress working Grameen Bank in lifting the very poor out of poverty. towards achieving almost all the millennium development To enable this to continue it is important that the goals. Our assistance is fully in line with UK values integrity, efficiency and independence of Grameen and our commitment to international human rights Bank is protected. The concerns of the noble Baroness standards. We will continue to provide our support to will be raised at future meetings. Bangladesh through our development programmes My noble friend Lady Brinton also raised concerns and as a key international partner. about the conduct of the Rapid Action Battalion. We Specific questions were asked about the DfID regularly raise with the Government of Bangladesh programme. The UK’s aid programme is directed through our serious concerns about allegations of human rights GC 467 Bangladesh: Human Rights[LORDS] Bangladesh: Human Rights GC 468

[BARONESS WARSI] Finally, why does this matter to the United Kingdom? abuses by law enforcement agencies, including the As noble Lords may know, the UK enjoys a strong Rapid Action Battalion. The British Government are and long-standing relationship with Bangladesh. We not currently providing training to the RAB. The were the first European nation to recognise Bangladesh previous training programme ended in March 2011 and our two countries are united by ties of family, and focused on the provision of human rights and trade and education. There are nearly 500,000 people ethical policing training. of Bangladeshi heritage living in the United Kingdom— My noble friend Lord Avebury also raised the indeed, some are Members of the House of Lords. We recent appalling attacks on the Buddhist community. are determined to nurture our strong bilateral relationship These have, quite rightly, been condemned by the and support Bangladesh to secure the stable and Government of Bangladesh. In relation to concerns prosperous future that its people deserve. We want to raised about citizenship and intercommunity tensions, see Bangladesh succeed and its human rights record again, there are specific projects which DfID is engaged improve. This requires effective governance, increased in that help to empower and build communities to transparency and tackling the issue of disappearances. allow those relationships to sit with ease. However, I As recently as last Friday, Foreign Minister Moni and take this opportunity to congratulate the right reverend I agreed that these things are best achieved by working Prelate the Bishop of Derby in relation to the work of together. Christian Aid and of faith charities generally. The UK and international partners will continue to Let me conclude by thanking again my noble friend provide support to Bangladesh through our development Lord Hussain for securing today’s debate. This is a programmes. I know that your Lordships will agree story of two halves. While there is remarkable progress that this is in the interest of not only Bangladesh but being made on poverty alleviation, there are considerable all those who care about Bangladesh. I will certainly human rights challenges facing Bangladesh. I restate take your Lordships’ concerns on board and will make that the UK raises these and other difficult issues with sure that they form the basis of discussions. I know the Government of Bangladesh regularly. Our public that the Bangladeshi High Commission is represented and private remarks to the Government of Bangladesh today and that it, too, will be taking on board the will continue to underscore our consistent message concerns raised by noble Lords. that values are at the heart of our foreign policy, and that it is neither in our character nor in our interests to have a foreign policy without a conscience. Committee adjourned at 7.27 pm. WS 153 Written Statements[9 OCTOBER 2012] Written Statements WS 154

unsolicited mail sometimes strains the logistic supply Written Statement chain and can prevent other mail from families from getting through. BFPO estimates it will handle Tuesday 9 October 2012 approximately 22,500 parcels per week during the eight-week period between mid-October and mid- Armed Forces: Unsolicited Mail December, more than twice the normal demand. This can impact on personal mail, causing severe delays. Statement Also delivering packages over the final mile to forward bases puts increased pressure on essential in-theatre The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry resources. of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever): My right honourable It is for these reasons that the MoD will be repeating friend the Minister of State for Defence Personnel, its unsolicited mail campaign. Its success last year Welfare and Veterans (Mark Francois) made the following reduced the volume of unsolicited mail by half compared Written Ministerial Statement on 14 September 2012 to previous years. Key to the success of this campaign (Official Report, col. 19WS-20WS): is encouraging the British public to show their support I wish to inform the House about the annual through one of the recognised MoD service charities. unsolicited mail campaign the Ministry of Defence All service personnel on operations over Christmas (MoD) will be running in the lead up to Christmas will receive a seasonal gift box from the charity, uk4u (which is 100 days from this Sunday). Thanks!. This charity works closely with the MoD, This Government are dedicated to the care and using free space in the existing supply chain to deliver welfare of the men and women of our Armed Forces, the boxes well before Christmas, without impacting on particularly those deployed on operations, which is the normal mail system. reflected in the comprehensive deployed welfare package. I recognise that it might seem counter-intuitive to A key part of that package is ensuring the timely ask the British public not to send parcels to troops at delivery of free personal mail from family and friends. Christmas, but to avoid the impact of unsolicited mail Whilst unsolicited mail is well-intentioned, mail sent and to help prioritise mail to service personnel from by families and friends is the most important to deployed their families, I ask for your full support in directing personnel and is our absolute priority. Moreover, the public towards MoD recognised charities.

WA 413 Written Answers[9 OCTOBER 2012] Written Answers WA 414 Written Answers Banks: Royal Bank of Scotland Questions Tuesday 9 October 2012 Asked by Lord Empey To ask Her Majesty’s Government what explanation they have received from the Royal Bank of Scotland Aviation for the recent crash of that bank’s computer systems. [HL1991] Question To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they Asked by Lord Jenkin of Roding have sought an explanation from the Royal Bank of To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to Scotland Group for the prolonged delay in restoring the Written Statement by Earl Attlee on 24 September customer services at Ulster Bank following the recent (WS 73–75) on aviation, when they expect to announce collapse of its computer systems; and, if so, what the names and other details of the full membership explanation was received. [HL1992] of the independent commission to be chaired by Sir Howard Davies. [HL2343] The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Sassoon): Ministers and officials had regular contact Earl Attlee: The Government are presently working with the Royal Bank of Scotland (RBS) to ensure that with Sir Howard Davies to finalise the membership of it was doing everything it could to resolve the technical the Airports Commission and its full terms of reference. difficulties as quickly as possible and that customers Details of both will be published shortly. would be treated properly and compensated as appropriate. RBS has committed to carry out a full and detailed investigation into the causes of the problem, overseen by independent experts, and will publish the findings. Banking: Investment Question Asked by Lord Greaves Business Ambassadors Questions To ask Her Majesty’s Government to what uses the funding capacity provided to banks through Asked by Baroness Nicholson of Winterbourne quantitative easing has been put, and in particular what proportions have been used for (1) investment To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether Marcus in manufacturing industry in the United Kingdom, Agius has remained a British business ambassador, (2) investment in other sectors in the United Kingdom, as shown on UK Trade and Investment’s website, (3) investment outside the United Kingdom, and since his resignation from Barclays Bank. [HL2253] (4) increasing the reserves held by the banks. [HL1881] The Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills & Foreign and Commonwealth The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Office (Lord Green of Hurstpierpoint): Marcus Agius Sassoon): The independent Monetary Policy Committee’s has remained a business ambassador since stepping (MPC) policy tools, including quantitative easing (QE), down from his position as chairman of Barclays plc. are macroeconomic tools designed to affect the economy One of the criteria of the business ambassadors as a whole, in order to meet the 2% inflation target initiative is that business ambassadors should occupy over the medium term. a senior executive role. Upon ceasing to hold such a When the Bank of England purchases assets, it position, there will be a 12-month transition period, credits the sellers’ bank accounts, which in turn increases after which he/she will step down from membership of their banks’ corresponding claims against the Bank of the group. England, or their reserves. Asked by Baroness Nicholson of Winterbourne The Bank’s asset purchases during QE have largely been from non-bank private sector institutions, including To ask Her Majesty’s Government what criteria insurance companies and pension funds, which can are used to select and appoint British business use the funds to invest in other, riskier assets like ambassadors. [HL2254] corporate bonds and equities. As explained in the Bank of England September 2011 Quarterly Bulletin, increased demand for these Lord Green of Hurstpierpoint: Business ambassadors assets should raise the market value of capital and are appointed by my right honourable friend the Prime reduce the cost of finance, and hence boost investment Minister. Only individuals who hold a senior executive spending. The Bank estimates that QE carried out (academic or business) position and who have sector between March 2009 and January 2010 may have specific expertise and an international profile are raised the level of real GDP by 1½%to2%. considered for the role. WA 415 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 416

Driving: Drink-drive Limit The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Question Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord De Mauley): Defra publishes an assessment on a Asked by Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town monthly basis of prices of global and UK agricultural products and retail food price inflation in its Farming To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they and Food Brief. The Government actively monitor will reduce the legal driving limit to 50mg of alcohol retail food prices and the drivers behind changes in per 100ml of blood, in line with the proposal of the commodity prices. Scottish Government. [HL2261] Research into this area has shown that the key drivers behind changes in retail food prices are global Earl Attlee: The Government have no plans to agricultural commodity prices, exchange rates, and lower the drink-drive limit in England and Wales. The fluctuating oil prices. power to decide the prescribed alcohol limit for Scotland We are active on the world stage, working with G20 is being devolved in accordance with Scottish Ministers’ partners to improve market information through the powers in relation to alcohol misuse. Agricultural Market Information System and working to discourage inappropriate reactions to market events, such as the use of export bans. Energy: Biofuels In September the Farming and Food Brief made Question this assessment of rises in grain prices: The August average price of hard red winter wheat Asked by Lord Kennedy of Southwark: was $363 per tonne, up 2.2% on July. For soft red winter wheat the average August price was $339, up To ask Her Majesty’s Government what role 1.7% on July. Prices available to the middle of September companies recycling used catering oil into biodiesel are showing smaller increases of less than 2% for both. have in achieving the emissions targets in the Carbon Plan and carbon budget. [HL2266] Maize prices climbed 36% from the beginning of June to reach a record high of $358 per tonne on 20 July. Since mid-September prices have fallen back Earl Attlee: The Government recognise that used to $317 per tonne. cooking oil can be one of the most sustainable biofuel The latest report released on 12 September from the feedstocks, not having the indirect effects associated US Department of Agriculture revised its US maize with certain other types of feedstock. production figure to 272.5Mt, down from the August Amendments made to the renewable transport fuel estimate of 273.8Mt due to a reduction in yield. Although obligation (RTFO) in December 2011 provide additional these latest yield estimates are slightly lower compared support for biofuels made from waste, such as biodiesel with the August report, they have been offset by a made from used catering oil, which meets mandatory higher carry-in stock leaving overall supplies forecast sustainability criteria. This recognises the potential higher. As a result the estimate for US 2012-13 maize positive contribution such fuels can make in helping stocks is 18.62Mt, which is 2.11 Mt above the August us achieve emissions targets. forecast but still 11.4Mt lower than 2011-12. The Department for Transport administers the RTFO In other world markets the main revisions for wheat and produces statistics on the supply of biofuel and were in Russia where production was forecast down by biogas in the UK by country of origin and feedstock, 4Mt to 39Mt. The EU-27 wheat crop was reduced by a and reports performance. Data are available at: http:// relatively minor 0.5Mt but maize production estimates www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/statistics/datatablespublications/ were reduced to 57.14Mt from 61.54Mt forecast in biofuels/. In obligation year 2010-11, 459 million litres August due to dry conditions in central and southern or 51% of biodiesel reported under the RTFO was EU countries. produced from used cooking oil. On a weighted average, http://www.defra-gov.uk/statistics/files/defra-stats- this represents a greenhouse gas saving of 84% when foodfarm-crosscutting-monthlybrief-sep12- compared to fossil fuels. Verified data are not yet 121001.pdf. available for 2011-12. The latest reported data suggest Soybean prices have also risen as a result of the US 489 million litres or 89% of biodiesel reported under drought, but the majority of other agricultural products the RTFO was produced from used cooking oil between have not seen significant price rises. April 2011 and December 2011. On a weighted average, this represents a greenhouse gas saving of 83% when It will take up to 12 months for the effects of high compared to fossil fuels. grain and soybean prices to be fully reflected in retail food prices in the UK.

Food: Prices Railways: BRB (Residuary) Ltd Question Question Asked by The Lord Bishop of Derby Asked by Lord Berkeley To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment To ask Her Majesty’s Government, following they have made of recent rises in food commodity their consultation on the proposed transfer of prices. [HL2111] properties from BRB (Residuary) Ltd to London WA 417 Written Answers[9 OCTOBER 2012] Written Answers WA 418

and Continental Railways, whether they will accede Asked by Lord Kennedy of Southwark to Network Rail’s request to receive the Uckfield station lands in order to safeguard future rail capacity To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many needs there. [HL2257] junctions on the motorway network are unnumbered. [HL2268] Earl Attlee: The Government will shortly be responding to the consultation on the abolition of BRB (Residuary) Earl Attlee: The following nine junctions are Ltd. The consultation proposed that property holdings unnumbered on the motorway network managed by such as Uckfield transferred to London and Continental Highways Agency: Railways Ltd (LCR), a company wholly owned by the Motorway Adjoining road Location Secretary of State for Transport. It is important to remember that Network Rail A194(M) A195 Follingsby, is a private company. Subject to the outcome of Gateshead A194(M) A182 Blackfell, the consultation, strategic land ownerships, such as Washington the former Uckfield station site, will be retained under A66(M) A66 Blackwell, the control of the Secretary of State through LCR. Darlington The consultation did propose transferring a small M181 A18 Scunthorpe number of properties to Network Rail which correct M66 A56 Edenfield, Bury apparent anomalies arising from the division of land M56 A494 Chester between Railtrack (as Network Rail then was) and the M11 (link Road) A120 Stansted Airport BRB at rail privatisation in 1994. Such properties A1(M) B1043 Alconbury include some that are within the line side fence; some M61 (spur road) A666 Kearsley bridges that span the operational railway; the operational test track at Old Dalby in Leicestershire; and several railway war memorials. UK Trade and Investment Question Roads: Motorway Junctions Asked by Baroness Nicholson of Winterbourne Questions To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the Asked by Lord Kennedy of Southwark Written Answer by Lord Green of Hurstpierpoint on1May(WA471), whether they have yet published To ask Her Majesty’s Government when they the follow-up letters of the Strategic Advisory Group expect the junction between the M6 and the A14 to on UK Trade and Investment’s website. [HL2255] be given a number. [HL2267] The Minister of State, Department for Business, Earl Attlee: The junction between the M6 and A14 Innovation and Skills & Foreign and Commonwealth is part of the Catthorpe Interchange which links the Office (Lord Green of Hurstpierpoint): UK Trade and M6, M1 and A14 routes. This is numbered M1 Investment is yet to publish the follow-up letters of the Junction 19. There are no plans to number the individual Strategic Advisory Group on its website. Arrangements links within the Catthorpe Interchange. for publication will be made shortly.

Tuesday 9 October 2012

ALPHABETICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN STATEMENT

Col. No. Col. No. Armed Forces: Unsolicited Mail ...... 153

Tuesday 9 October 2012

ALPHABETICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN ANSWERS

Col. No. Col. No. Aviation ...... 413 Energy: Biofuels...... 415

Banking: Investment ...... 413 Food: Prices ...... 415

Banks: Royal Bank of Scotland ...... 414 Railways: BRB (Residuary) Ltd...... 416

Business Ambassadors...... 414 Roads: Motorway Junctions ...... 417

Driving: Drink-drive Limit ...... 415 UK Trade and Investment ...... 418 NUMERICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN ANSWERS

Col. No. Col. No. [HL1881] ...... 413 [HL2255] ...... 418

[HL1991] ...... 414 [HL2257] ...... 417 [HL2261] ...... 415 [HL1992] ...... 414 [HL2266] ...... 415 [HL2111] ...... 415 [HL2267] ...... 417 [HL2253] ...... 414 [HL2268] ...... 418 [HL2254] ...... 414 [HL2343] ...... 413 Volume 739 Tuesday No. 44 9 October 2012

CONTENTS

Tuesday 9 October 2012 Questions House of Lords: Appointments ...... 921 Parliamentary Constituency Boundaries: Review ...... 924 Olympic and Paralympic Games 2012...... 926 Railways: Franchises...... 929 Economic Affairs Committee Membership Motion ...... 931 Justice and Security Bill [HL] Order of Consideration Motion ...... 931 Defamation Bill Second Reading ...... 932 Britain’s Industrial Base Question for Short Debate ...... 986 Grand Committee Education: Further Education Colleges Question for Short Debate ...... GC 405 UK Trade and Investment Question for Short Debate ...... GC 422 Health: Cancer Question for Short Debate ...... GC 438 Bangladesh: Human Rights Question for Short Debate ...... GC 452 Written Statement ...... WS 153 Written Answers...... WA 413