sign in sign up
<<
Home , Light on Yoga, Shirshasana

3 GURUS, 48 QUESTIONS MATCHING INTERVIEWS WITH SRI T.K.V. DESIKACHAR, SRI B.K.S. IYENGAR & SRI K. PATTABHI JOIS Interviews by R. ALEXANDER MEDIN Edited by DEIRDRE SUMMERBELL

THE HISTORY OF YOGA1 but to gain this experience, we need WHAT IS YOUR THEORY ABOUT to have faith in what they taught THE ORIGINS OF ? and a willingness to follow their T.K.V. Desikachar: Yoga is from the methods with consistent dedication Vedas. and hard work. It is not easy, but K. Pattabhi Jois: We cannot know for for every sadhaka [ardent seeker], sure the original nature of yoga, but there is profound spiritual wisdom to according to what tradition tells us, be rediscovered from our tradition. Shiva first taught it to Parvati, then India has a great history of trying to Parvati taught it to Shannmuka and understand the human and its Shannmuka taught it to Narada. And theories of moksa [release; liberation of the first yoga found before the Yoga from further transmigration] are Sutras of was when Adinatha something other religious traditions incarnated in this world to provide yoga cannot ignore. Some living teachers as a means to liberating man from the world of suffering. Also yoga is found in are good representatives of our great the shastras [scriptures], in the Bhagavad heritage, while others are less concerned Gita, and in different Upanishads. with tradition, and do as they please, AND HOW IS THIS REFLECTED IN making up rules and regulations of THE SCRIPTURAL, AS WELL AS IN THE their own. Dattatreya, Guru of all Gurus LIVING, TRADITION? HOW DOES PATANJALI’S CLASSICAL union of the opposing energies of Desikachar: There are many references YOGA STAND IN RELATION TO HATHA the body and the channeling of these YOGA? in the Vedas concerning what yoga is. energies into the central pathway. And It is referred to not only as Desikachar: is not in the this comes about when the surya [sensory withdrawal], but, in some . The termHatha [right nostril] and chandra nadi [left passages, it is understood to be yoga is in the of nostril] are controlled, and the vital the discipline of the senses of the mind. Swatmarama. It is also found in energy of these two channels merges In the Upanishads, yoga is seen as the some passages of the Upanishads, but in the central pathway of the spine. discipline of controlling the mind, and as far as the Yoga Sutras are concerned, So, when the is finally at rest and Patanjali also focuses on the mind, as there is only one word. And that is not no longer moved by the various sense Vedanta focuses on God. yoga, not , not Laya organs, we then realize God inside. That is our Self, our true identity. So, Hatha Pattabhi Jois: In India, tradition is yoga, not , but yoga, plain yoga is experiencing God inside. rooted in faith. Without faith, our and simple! All other words come from WHO WERE THE ORIGINATORS OF whole tradition would collapse. And , and are for an agitated mind that cannot practice yoga. An agitated HATHA YOGA? it is the greatness and wisdom of our mind is not free to perceive yoga. For Desikachar: We don’t know if Shiva forefathers that guides us on our path this, one needs mental support or composed the Vedas or if someone to perfection. To come to realize the physical stimuli, which Hatha yoga else did. In India, a lot of people depth of their knowledge and wisdom, simply acts to provide by preparing the compose works that are then ascribed we need to gain an experience of that body-mind field to be more fit for such to ancient sources, but nobody knows to which they testify. This can be perception. for certain who really wrote them. It very difficult in the times we live in, Pattabhi Jois: Hatha yoga means the is a tendency in India to mythologize 1These interviews were originally conducted in the early months of 2004 in Mysore, Pune, and Madras, as part of a master’s thesis. The full thesis runs to some 55,000 words, a generous portion of which is made up of the interviews, which appear here in abridged and edited form. For clarity’s sake, answers have been grouped together according to questions asked, rather than to their order in the original talks. Additionally, there are a few instances in the thesis when brief quotes from books by the interviewees have been added to their answers to help clarify ideas or to fill in indecipherable gaps on the interview tapes. These have been retained and footnoted. Not all interviewees, of course, answered each and every question, preferring occasionally to pass a particular one over. Mr. Medin’s work is currently being expanded into a book. 6 FALL 2004 and to ascribe materials to ancient Hatha yoga. Hatha also means power or [Until the prana enters and flows in founders to make them more authentic. force, but whatever the interpretation, the middle channel and the breath Even my father, Krishnamacharya, I believe that the union of these two becomes firm by the control of the invented parts of his teaching. I know major nadis produces a harmonizing movements of prana; and until the that he wrote down several passages influence on the body and hence allows mind assumes the form of Brahma in his early life which he changed in us to experience yoga. without any effort in contemplation, his later life. He also authored works Pattabhi Jois: [Laughs] Yoga is not up to then, all talk of knowledge and himself, much like, in ancient times, physical—very wrong! Hatha yoga can, wisdom is merely the nonsensical ancient scholars would do and then of course, be used as external exercise never acknowledge that they had done only, but that is not its real benefit. Yoga babblings of a mad man.] so. Divine intervention or not [laughs], can go very deep and touch the soul So, we must follow the method that is these scholars always claimed that texts of man. When it is performed in the correct and practice it for a long time. Sa were by some superhuman being rather right way, over a long period of time, tu dirgha kala nairantarya satkara sevito than themselves. So, naturally, they the nervous system is purified, and so dridhabhumih [A practice over a long would say that Shiva was the composer is the mind. As the is period of time, consistently, humbly, because Shiva is a supernatural being, telling us. rather than just an ordinary individual. with the best intention, becomes Yatato hyapi Kaunteya And, yes, of course, they talked about the firm foundation for cultivating purshasya vipashcitah subtleties and superhuman powers, but a cessation of the fluctuations of the indriyani pramathini haranti we don’t know how they perceived this. mind.] This can take many lifetimes of prasabham manah We have to rely on textual evidence practice—even 100,000 years! and can only assume that there was Tani sarvani samyamya yukta asita matparah an esoteric teaching running parallel KRISHNAMACHARYA with their texts. Subtleties such as the Vase hi yasyendriyani tasya prajna pratishtita BG 2:60-61 CAN YOU DESCRIBE nadis [nerve pathways] and various KRISHNAMACHARYA IN THREE WORDS? energy channels are mentioned in the [Controlling all the senses, the self- Desikachar: acharya Upanishads and it is evident that these controlled one should sit meditating One word: [spiritual teacher]. That is enough! people had an insight into them, but it on Me. Verily, his wisdom is steady B.K.S. Iyengar: He was a versatile man, is not easy for us to understand where whose senses are under control. The an extraordinary man—not of a normal they derived their knowledge from. Like turbulent senses, O son of Kunti, kind. I revered him. He was the master Shankaracharya, for example, who said forcibly lead astray the mind of even of many subjects. It is hard to find he learned everything from Gaudapada. the struggling wise person.] But who was Gaudapada? That’s why people nowadays with knowledge like The whole purpose of Hatha yoga is to they say, gurubhyo param apnoti, which his. And how men of our low intellect purify and control our senses. It is the means a person’s clarity should highlight can speak of a person like him, I don’t his teacher, not himself. One should ultimate science of helping us discover know! never tell anybody where a mantra was what lies behind the apparent reality of Pattabhi Jois: A very good man, a strong received from. Instead, one should only body and mind. But look at the world character. A dangerous man. speak of the guru, never of the mantra. today! There are so many different WHAT DO YOU KNOW OF That’s the universal law. ways of doing yoga. Everybody says KRISHNAMACHARYA’S LINEAGE AND Pattabhi Jois: I don’t know for certain. that they are doing it the right way, TEACHERS? but what is the right way unless it I only know what my guru taught me. Desikachar: You can refer to this in the But many texts mention the rishis produces a certain change in people, book covering Krishnamacharya’s life Matsyendranath, Goraknath, Vamana, unless a certain energy is awakened published by our institute. but before them, there were other within them? As Swatmarama is telling Iyengar: As far as I know, his teacher was maharishis. Yoga is at least two to three us, in the last verse of the Hatha Yoga Ramamohan Brahmachari of Nepal, thousand years old, if not older. Pradipika: but we didn’t speak much about his WHAT DISTINGUISHES HATHA YOGA Yavan naiva pravishati caran maruto guru in detail. I knew Krishnamacharya FROM OTHER PHYSICAL FITNESS madhyamarge because he married my sister in the EXERCISES? Yavad bindur na bhavati drdaprana nineteen-thirties. What he did before Desikachar: According to various texts, vata prabandhat | that, I am not too familiar with. But it “ha” means the surya nadi and “tha” Yavad dhyane sahajasadrsham jaayate is certain that, due to his being a great means the chandra nadi. When these nanva tattvam Sanskrit scholar, he met a lot of ancient two energy channels, ha and tha, merge Tavaj jnanam vadati tadidam scholars in India who introduced him to together in the sushumna [spinal nadi], dambhamithyapralapah || Ramamohan Brahmachari. According there is a complete understanding of HYP 4:113 to legend, Krishnamacharya studied

FALL 2004 7 Early poster of T. Krishnamacharya and student demonstrating twenty-one .

8 FALL 2004 with him for seven years. But I don’t yoga], the Baghavad Gita, the Yoga later on, he changed and began to teach want to create any false ideas about Sutras of Patanjali, the Upanishads, people differently. He began to cater to what happened. I only came to know various books on Vedanta, Samkhya the needs of the individual, rather than him after my sister’s marriage and, by Yoga Karika—every good book ever to teach everyone in the same way. He that time, he was a remarkable yogi. written about yoga. And not just once! also became a healer of old people. Pattabhi Jois: His teacher was He taught them all many times over. When he taught Muslims, he would Ramamohan Brahmachari, a very And then there was Ayurveda and Vedic quote passages from the Koran and ask good man, a strong man, who taught chanting, and how to perform rituals them to face towards Mecca, and when Krishnamacharya many things. All my properly, how to do pujas [homage to Bengalis came, he would teach them in information comes from my guru and and worship of a deity], how to do Bengali. His teaching methodology also he told me that he studied with him for cremations, how to perform marriages, evolved, which meant that he reduced close to seven years. When he finished how to do all kinds of rites of passage. He and adapted it to the needs of individuals, his studies, his teacher told him to go also taught me how to perform the rites to their culture and mentality. It was not and teach yoga, so he left and started when somebody dies. My father simply standardization of the “everyone-has-to giving demonstrations and teaching in taught me everything about ancient do-this-” variety. First, he would various places around India. That is how rituals in India! And everything he connect to an individual, get to know I met him for the first time in Hassan taught me was in Sanskrit, of course. In their background, their religion, their in 1927. 1984, when he was ninety-six years old, culture, whether they were a woman HOW LONG DID YOU STUDY WITH I asked him “What is your experience or a man; he taught women and men KRISHNAMACHARYA? of yoga?” And he said; “Today, faith differently. But even though he taught Desikachar: For twenty-nine years. in God is the most important thing for people differently, he was still able to When I look back at my notes, I think yoga.” Faith in God is the quickest way reach everybody he would teach, young to myself, ‘Wow! What a remarkable to reach God. or old. He was an orthodox Iyengar: man!’ He only taught me a few and, at the same time, invited people asana Iyengar: I studied with him for two years s, and then my evolution came to his home for coffee and breakfast. when I was fourteen, fifteen years old. from my own practice. He would always feed and look after When I was seventeen, I went to Pune Pattabhi Jois: What my teacher taught the people he taught. So, it wasn’t only and, every year thereafter, I would go me is exactly the same method I am about the teaching method, but about and show my respect and reverence for teaching today. It was an examination him as a human being caring for another him. During that two-year period, he course of primary, intermediate, and human being. Iyengar: In the early days, he was like a only taught me for about ten or fifteen advanced asanas. He also taught me militant. He was a fierce, harsh man. As days, but those few days determined philosophy. For five years, we studied long as I knew him, he was always very what I have become today! the great texts. He would call us to Pattabhi Jois: I studied with him from harsh and strict. He may have been good his house and we would stand outside to others and other people may speak of 1927 to 1953. The first time I saw him and wait to be called in. Sometimes, we was in November of 1927. It was at the him as a kind, loving man, but I never would wait the whole day. He would Jubilee Hall in Hassan and, the next day, experienced anything other than a very, usually teach us for one or two hours I found out where he lived and went to very strong, demanding individual. asana his house. He asked me many questions, every day: s early in the morning Pattabhi Jois: Very strict. If you came but finally accepted me and told me to and, around 12 o’clock, philosophy one minute early or one minute late, come back the next morning. Then, class. He also taught us , you would not be allowed into class. He after my thread ceremony in 1930, I pratyahara [sensory withdrawal], demanded total discipline and was very, went to Mysore to learn Sanskrit and dharana [concentration], and dhyana very tough. People were fearing him, was accepted at the Maharaja’s Sanskrit []. And, in addition to the but he had a very good heart. College. There, I was reunited with Yoga Sutras and Bhagavad Gita, he also DID IT EVER CHANGE? Krishnamacharya in 1931, when he taught Yoga Vasishta, , Desikachar: My father’s teaching came to do a demonstration. He was and Samhita. And all in Sanskrit. very happy to find me studying at the changed as he went through different COULD YOU DESCRIBE periods of his life. Before India gained college. KRISHNAMACHARYA’S TEACHING its independence, it was different. WHAT DID KRISHNAMACHARYA TEACH METHODS? YOU? In 1930, my father wrote a book on Desikachar: What was so great about Vedic chanting in which he said that Desikachar: I cannot even begin to my father was that he taught differently women were unsuited for Vedic practice tell you what I learned from my father. as a young man, when he was in Mysore and should marry before puberty. In He was such a great man! Hatha yoga, and teaching my uncle and Pattabhi 1986, he said that women must learn pranayama [fourth limb of Ashtanga Jois. Then, he taught in one style, but Vedic chanting and that they were the

FALL 2004 9 upholders of dharma [duty; ethics]. And thank God. What Pattabhi Jois was But they create nothing but confusion. this when he was ninety-seven years taught in 1934, he is still teaching Thank God I came up and developed old and even though he was a strict now. I’m not saying this is wrong—I my own confidence. The one thing is Brahmin and well-versed in the Purva also taught it—but the people I talked discipline—that is essential—and that Mimamsa school. to said it was nothing but physical is what attracted me to the practice—to Iyengar: I would say probably not, movement, callisthenic-style. But now, inquire, to try to understand, and to which is why some confusion has today, the very same method is spiritual, explore what there is in the asanas. My developed because what I think his according to some people. I don’t guru’s mentality was that he was always method was may be different from what understand the mentality of humans. centered. Even when he walked down somebody else thinks. But what I’m But what is important is how we may the street, he would never sway; he teaching came from my guru, though develop the dormant consciousness was always centered within himself and I developed it further myself. What within the body, how we may penetrate wouldn’t look to the right or the left, I teach is Krishnamacharya’s honest from this end to that. As I’ve said, how even if there was commotion or noise. method. Everyone, of course, wants to do you understand on the Pattabhi Jois: Yes. prove their authenticity with respect to right leg? By expanding down into the WHAT WAS SO SPECIAL ABOUT Krishnamacharya. When Desikachar left leg. In a similar way, I needed to KRISHNAMACHARYA? became his student, he wasn’t even find out what the depth of each asana studying yoga. He was working in a is and how it works in opposition. I company and was supposed to go to needed to find the bone of the right leg northern India, but suddenly took a in opposition to the left. Do you know great interest in his father, who was how to elongate it? Is the energy on the then seventy. Of course, the difference right leg equal to that on the left leg? Is between a person’s practice when he the energy straight on the bank of the is seventy and when he is young is outer leg? So, these were all the things I quite remarkable. And, naturally, the had to discover. So, intelligence had to teachings he would pass on would be go into how to penetrate the postures Desikachar: He was not just a yoga quite different. But my style is from to make sense of them. It is not just teacher. Whatever India represents, the seed he planted in Mysore. It is gymnastics or callisthenic-style—that is whether Ayurveda, yoga, Mimamsa, also from challenges that came up in not what vinyasa is about. Vinyasa can or the various schools of Vedanta, I my own practice and from the need to be different from gymnastics, but then have never seen anybody, any single adapt to people and their needs. I had you have to develop it intellectually. individual, who had such knowledge. to question the jumping and vinyasas And that is what I did. I brought the When he was ninety-seven, he could [synchronized movements and breath] refinement, but the foundation was lecture on anything. You see, it was and see what they were. You know, from my guru, who provided me with not only about the asanas. The yoga Pune is known for its wrestlers. There is the base that I grew out of. my father embodied was manifold. I in India no spiritual and cultural center always thought of him as a circle, as like Maharashtra, and Pune itself was the completely stable, and as somebody intellectual Cambridge of India. Now, if for whom yoga was simply secondary. you mix this with the famous wrestlers He advised people about many things, that were here, you can naturally about farming—he knew how to grow understand why I had to question my crops—about how to choose a house, yoga tradition and to find out what was about medical things, about affairs of particular to it. What was the difference the heart. He was also a great cook and even taught my mother how to cook. between the physical practice I was Pattabhi Jois: I don’t know. As long as Iyengar: He was a great healer. He doing and the practice of the wrestlers? I was with him, he always taught the On what level was it different from had the mantra-jaya [the power of same. normal physical exercise? At first, they the mantra] and was not just a great DID KRISHNAMACHARYA TEACH scholar, but had the divine grace would appear to be identical. So, this EVERYBODY THE SAME WAY? opened my eyes to really find out what working through him. And that divine yoga had, particularly with reference Iyengar: No, which is why there is all grace is something neither you nor I to its influence on the body and, most this confusion. Even the intellectuals can even imagine. No, it was greater importantly, to its impact on the mind. of the world are just like intellectual than that: I saw him act as a physician So, I cultivated this, but the reason for Hitlers, trying to prove who is most and help people in matters that were my growth was my guru, though my right. They talk in such a way asto unbelievable. He was a divine healer. I later development was due to my own confuse and try to build up their even think that the he helped hard work. And evolution is evolution, intellectual purity to impose their views. some people with had more effect

10 FALL 2004 than the yoga. He had the power of studied with him at different periods of her, “You must stretch from this end the mantra—I don’t know how, but he our lives. And what he was in those early to that end.” And immediately when certainly had it—and he had the days was a strict disciplinarian. People Krishnamacharya saw this, he gave me [superhuman power], but it intoxicated can’t even imagine the way he was! You a gold medal known as Yoga Shikshaka him. It really intoxicated my guru, I could not say one word against him— Chakravarti, which means “Emperor of know that. He was also a good reader people could not open their mouths Yoga Teachers, Teacher of Teachers.” He of human psychology. He could look at against him. What he said was law and said I must teach like this and not just a man and tell the exact character of his everybody had to follow. If he told you in private, but in public. He said I must personality. He could see beyond the to finish at a particular time, you had to become a yoga teacher and pushed me appearance of things. finish exactly then. If he told you to do definitely in that direction. He also had Pattabhi Jois: He was not just a great something, you had to do exactly that. remarkable skills for understanding the yoga teacher, but also a great Sanskrit Nobody could question him. My guru’s human psyche and that’s probably the scholar. He had studied and completed character was like that of the crazy-wise greatest thing he ever taught me. his examination in all the six darshanas Tibetan adept Milarepa—my guru was Pattabhi Jois: When he left for Madras [schools of ancient ]. exactly the same. And the encounters he told me, “Make this yoga method the He was known as Mimamsa Tirtha between Milarepa and Marpa were work of your life.” [ford across the river of human misery], probably the same as the encounters between Krishnamacharya and his DO YOU KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT HIS Vedanta Vagisa [lord of speech], PERSONAL PRACTICE? Sankhya Yoga Shikhamani [jewel students! among ]. Pattabhi Jois: Because of his knowledge Desikachar: He would get up at 3 WHY DO YOU THINK and wisdom. o’clock in the morning, read his books, KRISHNAMACHARYA BECAME SUCH A WHAT WAS THE MOST IMPORTANT and then practice. LEGEND? THING KRISHNAMACHARYA TAUGHT Iyengar: He did lots of pranayama and a YOU? little asana. I became the master of asana Desikachar: I don’t know that he is and he was the master of pranayama. such a legend, but thank you for saying Desikachar: The most important thing I saw him do , padmasana, so. My father never cared for name my father taught me was humility. , but it appeared to me that and fame. And here in India, a lot Vidya dadhatu vinaya [teach knowledge asanas were no longer that important of people don’t know him. If you ask with humility]. to him. He used to do what we call most people who the source of yoga is, aradhana, which means prayer. For they will say Iyengar. Nobody knows more than three hours every morning, Krishnamacharya, the great originator he would sit in front of an idol and of ! It’s a shame. But I am do various rituals, parayanas [recitation very, very proud of my father. of the names of God], and prayers. Iyengar: He was the founder of the He was a free man at the time, under modern developments of yoga. Because the patronage of the Maharaja, and he of his grace, the most recent advancement devoted more time to spiritual practice. of yoga came forth. He was the giver of Iyengar: What he thought me was only Pattabhi Jois: No, only that he was a the path, but each man would also have a few asanas. That seed was what he gave master at what he was doing. to come to know the subject for himself me and I developed it as well as I could. as he engaged with it. In 1960, nobody The seed was very good, which is why HOW WOULD YOU DESCRIBE YOUR knew my guru. When I brought out my OWN PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP WITH I could grow. And whatever he gave KRISHNAMACHARYA? book and showed my respect for him, me, I simply refined and developed, everybody started saying, “Oh, there is and whatever he taught me, that’s Desikachar: I saw my father as my this Krishnamacharya!”2 It’s the human what I developed too. Evolution came father. He was a very disciplined man, mentality to always have to look for a later: how to progress, how to improve loving, caring, but at the same time, a better knower, to think that somebody the postures, what to do in a correct strict disciplinarian. else is the better knower of the method. way. He never taught me much about Iyengar: I told you I revered him. But that is not important. What is teaching, but he saw me teach. In 1961, Although he was my guru, he was also important is that things evolve, things he came to Pune and was teaching my my brother-in-law. I never called him change. But for the human mentality, daughter and son. He taught them “guruji” at all, but called him, in our it’s different. ‘Desikachar? Pattabhi for many hours, but unfortunately language, tambi [brother]. In my heart Jois?’ it says. ‘Maybe they are the better they could not get what he was trying of hearts though, he was my guru. knowers?’ But we all studied with to show them. When I came up and Physically, he was my brother-in-law, Krishnamacharya. We were all given the asked what was wrong, my daughter but mentally, he was my guru. seeds by him to evolve yoga further. We told me what she did not understand Pattabhi Jois: A normal guru-sisya cannot speak of a better knower. We all about a posture. So, I explained to [disciple] relationship.

2 (New York: Schocken Books, 1966). FALL 2004 11 DID YOU EVER GET TO KNOW HIM whatever form of yoga they teach, can Unfortunately, a lot of Westerners are PERSONALLY? WHAT KIND OF PERSON transform yoga. It shouldn’t just be thinking more about making money WAS HE? men in India. But the spirit of yoga than about teaching this correct Desikachar: We lived together until he speaks for itself. We can see this now in method. And I don’t know how died, so of course I got to know him the healing field. What is so fantastic, beneficial that can be for people. When personally. what is so significant, is that people yoga is only for business, it is of no use. Iyengar: Of course, I knew him are opening up to the healing benefits People offer fifteen-day courses, even personally. I lived with him at his place, of yoga. Even doctors in the medical one-week courses, to become a yoga so naturally I got to know him. I knew field are coming to our center these teacher. [Laughs] How good for yoga him for what he was then—a terrible days. But yoga is also a relationship, that is, I don’t know. dictator in Mysore. How people later not a mass movement. It is a one-to- WHAT HAS THE WESTERN WORLD came to talk of him as a soft-spoken, one relationship between people, not CONTRIBUTED TO YOGA? commercialization. What happens in mellow man living in Madras, I don’t Desikachar: I am very grateful to the the West is broad generalizations and know. But he probably got mellow West. They’ve reminded us Indians informational teaching, and there is after he had to give up the patronage about our great heritage. little personal contact, unfortunately. of the Maharaja, when India became Iyengar: Any Western yoga teacher who And students really must know the independent. Since the Maharaja had teaches with sincerity and is properly value of personal relationships. no money, he told Krishnamacharya, trained by a qualified practitioner Iyengar: What is interesting to see is “It’s up to the government now to contributes something good to the that there was no respect or awareness look after you and the yoga shala world of yoga. of yoga when I first came to the West in [hall].” But the government, of course, Pattabhi Jois: Nobody can contribute 1960. And then gradually, as I started to had no money for yoga shalas, so anything to yoga, but yoga can do some demonstrations, the awareness Krishnamacharya probably came to contribute something to everybody. the realization that the temperament began to grow. And I have given more than 10,000 demonstrations, three HOW IS THE WESTERN MENTALITY he’d had under the Maharaja wasn’t DIFFERENT FROM THE INDIAN? going to work. Whether this is true or hours long—you can ask anybody! not, I don’t know, but after he came This style of direct presentation, which Desikachar: What I like about to Madras, things definitely changed I developed, cultivated an interest in Westerners is their questioning . with his teaching. He was a master in people. And it wasn’t spiritual things— In India, people never ask why they Mysore, but he had to become a servant not saying that, by doing such and such, should do this or that, they just do in Madras. Now, he suddenly had to they would get certain benefits—no, it it on blind faith. They don’t question look after people and that is probably was those direct presentations of mine anything—“why are you telling me this? why some of his teaching methods that attracted people. And now, fifty why should I do that?”—they never changed. years of yoga in the West have caused ask these things. I used to question Pattabhi Jois: Dangerous, but kind. yoga to grow and evolve. But I took it my father and he was so happy when to the masses. I never kept it a secret. I did. Questioning is important as it Proud, but very knowledgeable. Yes, I did teach famous people like is the key to finding out for yourself. Sincerity and love, of course, also need YOGA TODAY Yehudi Menuhin and Krishnamurti, but having taught them, I realized that to be there. Younger people are better CAN WESTERNERS EVER DO JUSTICE everybody needs yoga, regardless of their at questioning these days, but before it TO THE GREAT HERITAGE OF YOGA? background. There are human qualities was taboo. People say “guruji,” which is Desikachar: I think there are certain in ordinary men and one doesn’t have like a slogan we have eulogized. But I losses, but I am very inspired by the to be a philosopher or a special man believe people have slaughtered “guruji” dedication of Westerners, as well as by to have your human potential brought with false pretences. the care and concern of some people. out. So, I brought yoga to the people Iyengar: Mentally, a few differences This makes me very confident, though and now the seeds that I planted exist between Westerners and Indians. at the same time, I know yoga has carry on. Yoga lives. It may go on for Westerners try to solve their emotional become a business, money, etc. This is centuries. But I don’t think the subject problems intellectually, but emotional even happening in India. Even so, there of yoga is something that belongs to problems need to be solved emotionally, are some genuine teachers out there. me. It is something that continues to not logically. Westerners developed their And for me, as an Indian, the West is a live within individuals. Yes, there were system of logic and Indians developed role model that I have great faith in. The many maharishis and great people of the their system of reason. When logic and wind blows from the West here and I past, but the yoga that we come to now reason mix together, then humanity can am very happy about this because some is what we have and that is what lives grow. In the West, we see vertical growth of the greatest people I have met have within us. and, in India, we see horizontal growth, come from the West. And my hope is Pattabhi Jois: Yoga is very good if but when vertical and horizontal that yoga masters in the East and West, it is taught with the correct method. intelligence are able to work together,

12 FALL 2004 I believe in the full potential of human body cannot happen without a good That’s what Patanjali refers to. A lot of development. relationship with the mind. Whatever people have lost their inner confidence, Pattabhi Jois: Indian people are used to happens in the body affects the mind their strength, and what yoga does is following tradition, to having faith in and whatever happens in the mind bring this out, which strengthens them the system, and to believing in moksha, affects the body. And whatever happens again. Awakening this inner confidence or liberation. But for Western people, in the emotional body affects the mind, is why it is beneficial to humanity. It is moksha is not very important. They as well. But the essence of yoga is often our inner strength that helps us endure practice yoga primarily for their health, not taught through the body. What is our difficulties and lifts us through which is okay. But to really understand essential and needs to be taught is the our various trials. And it is this same the heritage of India, one must also spirit of yoga, and that people don’t strength that helps us embrace life in understand its ancient traditions, which understand. a better way. This is the strength that gave rise to our spiritual tradition. Some Iyengar: Refer to my books and CD. Patanjali calls chiti-shakti. Westerners overlook this great heritage Asanas are not meant for physical Iyengar: Yoga is a self-critiquing and have no idea what the fitness, but for conquering the elements, subject. Only a yogi can criticize are. energy, and so on. So, how to balance himself. A musician, a physiologist or IS THERE ANY DANGER THAT THE YOGA the energy in the body, how to control other scientist criticizes their respective TRADITION COULD BE DILUTED? the five elements, how to balance the subjects, but only a practitioner can various aspects of the mind without come to grips with the Self through Desikachar: It is already being diluted. mixing them all together, and how to be My father studied with Ramamohan able to perceive the difference between Brahmachari for eight-and-a-half years. the gunas [qualities], and to experience He was dedicated and worked closely that there is something behind them, with his teacher every day. I’ve also operating in the world of man—that is visited Muktinath in Nepal, and the what asanas are for. The process is slow sacrifices people have to make there just and painstaking, but a steady inquiry to get up early in the morning, when it is facilitates a growing awareness. cold, are immense. For a normal person, Pattabhi Jois: Yoga is one. God is one. it is of course difficult to get up early Yoga means sambandaha, which is atma to pursue their dedication to yoga, but manah samyogah, or knowing God it all depends on the commitment and inside you. But using it only for physical intentions of the mind. But the physical practice is no good, of no use—just a side is not the end of yoga. The physical lot of sweating, pushing, and heavy side is only one aspect. Yoga should breathing for nothing. The spiritual not be learned by the performance of aspect, which is beyond the physical, is postures. If you go by the performance the purpose of yoga. When the nervous of postures, then you dilute yoga, but if system is purified, when your mind rests you go by the inquiry of the spirit, it is in the atman [the Self], then you can not diluted. experience the true greatness of yoga. Iyengar: Dilution is, of course, a danger. WHY IS YOGA SO BENEFICIAL FOR But dilution of any subject is the death MANKIND? of that subject, but not of humanity. Desikachar: Please note the difference. If an art dies, I started yoga because my his own practice. Through self-study what good does that do humanity? Yoga father helped a lady from India who and self-criticism, he develops his own lives through humanity. As long as there had hardly slept for thirty years and intelligence and learns to discriminate are ardent seekers, I’m confident that I saw the effect. After that, I thought between what is real and what is not. the beauty of yoga will survive. that I had to learn this from him and then I just started seeing in what ways As the Self grows in him, he comes to Pattabhi Jois: Yes, if people don’t yoga really helps people. Yoga is not for understand. The Self alone shines forth appreciate and take care of the great everybody, but for those who experience and permeates all his activities. That teachings that have come down to us. it and are touched by it, it transforms is why yoga is beneficial to mankind SOME PEOPLE SPEAK OF PHYSICAL their lives. They can connect with a because its practitioners may come to YOGA, MENTAL YOGA, SPIRITUAL YOGA. spirit beyond themselves that elevates understand the Self. It is a development IS THERE A DIFFERENCE? them above many difficulties. I won’t from the gross to the subtle, but we Desikachar: Yoga is a relationship. It is say that every asana will save people. I must always start with the gross—that not that the body is not important— won’t say that standing on your head is our point of departure. What better the body is very important; it is the is good for everybody, but the inner thing can you do in this life than to get temple—but a transformation in the spirit that yoga awakens is beneficial. to know your own Self?

FALL 2004 13 Pattabhi Jois: Yoga is good for man instruments, some people wouldn’t be good understanding, that is not good. because the physical body improves, able to practice at all, so they help them You need to be a student for many, the nervous system improves, the mind on their way. many years. It is important to have a improves, the intellect improves—so, Pattabhi Jois: That is the way of good teacher to guide you and then, how can yoga not be good? Westerners. They are always thinking when your teacher thinks you are ready, WHAT ARE YOUR PERSONAL VIEWS ON to make more money. Unfortunately, you can start to teach. ALL THE MODERN SCHOOLS OF YOGA it is not good when the goal of yoga is WHAT ARE THE CRITERIA TO BECOME IN THE WEST TODAY? money rather than God. Real yoga is A GOOD YOGA TEACHER? Desikachar: My view is that if people not about money. If yoga comes your Desikachar: Faith in God. Let me tell can benefit from something, fine! way, be happy about it. People ask me so you about Sri Dharan, my colleague. Iyengar: I am a yogi. I will not say many questions: “Guruji, what should I He used to work as the manager of a anything about other schools. I can only do about this? How should I do that”? I bank. He had no desire to move further refer to the Mahabharata, which tells us say, “Don’t take your mind other places. with his job and, when he retired, he about Dharmaraja and Duryodhana. Think only of God, then do yoga.” Let approached me and offered his services Dharmaraja was a righteous man and things come. If you want to benefit, here. He joined our organization as our Duryodhana was a cruel man, but both think only of God, dedicate all your head, but did not want any money. He of them were present. So, when both actions to God, and whatever comes could have made a fortune as a business good and bad are present, how can I your way is a gift—is His gift to you. administrator in a bank, but he chose to answer? How can I say what is good work here, for the service of yoga. That or bad? People will find what they are ON TEACHING is commitment, and I believe that is looking for. WHAT ARE THE QUALITIES OF A GOOD what makes a great teacher. Pattabhi Jois: Let other forms of yoga YOGI? Iyengar: One has to work really hard and be there, I teach only Ashtanga yoga, Desikachar: My model is my father. show the qualities of sincerity, honesty, which is real. I know that it is real and Iyengar: How can you ask a question and virtue. It is the responsibility of everybody who practices it correctly like that? I will tell you in one sentence: human beings to move and act in truly will come to know that it is real also. The lunatic speaks loudly, you and honorable ways and, as Patanjali said, The essence of yoga is to reach oneness I speak internally, and the wise yogi to develop the qualities of friendliness, with God. The ego must be understood, speaks not at all. The wise yogi is silent. compassion, gladness, and endless love. contemplated, and released. If you only Pattabhi Jois: Dedication to yoga and a When we embody these four qualities, try to boost the ego, you will miss the we can begin to approximate the criteria steady faith in yoga. And a willingness greatest fruit of yoga. of becoming a good teacher. to do hard work and to continuously Pattabhi Jois: As I said, be a dedicated IS IT OKAY TO CAPITALIZE ON YOGA? IS 3 YOGA AS A BUSINESS ACCEPTABLE? think of and concentrate on yoga. student for many years before you even WHAT MAKES A GOOD YOGA TEACHER? Desikachar: Well, this happens with start to think about teaching everything. We are human beings and Desikachar: A good yoga teacher has to IS THERE AN ELEMENT IN YOGA THAT we have certain drawbacks. We have to be an example, not just an entertainer. CAN NEVER BE TAUGHT? accept them. You see, it is not the strength or beauty Desikachar: Yes. That is why the Yoga Iyengar: Capitalizing on yoga means of an asana practice that makes a great Sutras say that a yoga teacher is like a commercial yoga and that is not right. yoga teacher. It is how they are as farmer. He is not the seed, the soil, or But it is the human mentality. The individuals. the water, but the farmer who cultivates world is like that—“How can I become Iyengar: A good teacher is one who the land for the growth that is there. A famous?” “How can I become rich?” comes to the level of people and builds farmer can break the dam so that the And, unfortunately, some people will them up. He understands where they water flows, but what happens next is always take advantage of others. Take for are, what their position is. This is the not in the hands of the seed alone. It example the instruments I developed. right approach for a good teacher is a mixture of the cultivation of the How many centers are there around to take. I do not demand, but earn land, the watering of the field, and the world that sell these instruments? respect. the preparation of the soil. Similarly, Everybody uses them, though I don’t Pattabhi Jois: Primarily, you have to one can strive hard to teach the various get anything for them. But I don’t mind learn the practice properly, you have elements of yoga correctly, but the fate that either. You see, I’m happy because to know yoga properly, before you can of the practitioner is in the hands of millions of people have benefited from start to teach. If you think, ‘I want to God. One can only help the process the advantages of yoga. Without the become a teacher,’ before you have a along.

3At this point in the interview, Sharath Rangaswamy, assistant director of the Ashtanga Yoga Research Institute in Mysore and Sri K. Pattabhi Jois’s grandson, joined the conversation. He had much to say in answer to the questions about teaching and many of his words have been incorporated into Pattabhi Jois’s own answers on the subject. The decision to include his words reflects his very close relationship with his grandfather—he is a life-long student of his—and the strength of his English.

14 FALL 2004 Iyengar: Once you have reached is essential to yoga, we believe, and WHAT IS THE MOST REWARDING realization, the teaching ends. When gives people a direct inner experience ASPECT OF YOUR WORK? the seeker becomes the seer, the teaching of their potential. To feel the energy Desikachar: I am an engineer by stops. This is the highest teaching. As continually flowing through the spine profession. When I used to work, I long as there is a difference between is the effect of vinyasa. But there is would meet people in a professional guru and student, teaching is needed. nothing that comes instantly. One environment. But in my role as a yoga But when the difference between the needs to practice this system for many teacher, I meet people as a human two disappears, then they become years—a minimum of five to ten being. I meet all kinds of people—poor one. So, the greatest teacher teaches people, important people, sick people— years—to begin to experience these the student how to attain the level of and I have developed intimate, friendly deep subtle changes in the body. realization that he himself has reached. relationships with them. That is the Pattabhi Jois: Only your guru can HAVE YOUR TEACHING METHODS most rewarding part of my work. CHANGED OVER THE YEARS? DO YOU truly guide you—only someone who FOCUS ON THINGS NOW THAT YOU Pattabhi Jois: It is to see the growth has studied the path before you and is DIDN’T WHEN YOU FIRST STARTED? and development of students, and to aware of all the dangers can truly direct Desikachar: What I learned from my experience the love and gratitude they you. And the blessing of the guru is father was to sit on the floor and to have when they come here to Mysore, very important too. Without the guru’s say some prayers—that is what I teach year after year. We see so many students blessing, you cannot really progress as a people. My country is changing fast, as who come from all over the world to student. And this blessing is to listen to you know. We have to adapt ourselves study with us. Some of them have the guru, to what the correct method to the context and circumstances we live full-time jobs and get only four weeks is, and to have faith in him—to follow in, and we need to be aware of what’s vacation per year, but they choose to and let yourself be guided by him. This happening. The importance of yoga is devote that time to coming here to blessing cannot be explained. It can viveka, or discrimination in action. It is practice with us. To see this dedication only be experienced with the energy not performance. To know what is now, and to see the happiness in people— to know what was yesterday, you cannot and strengths that will flow from that is what is truly rewarding. within you. This strength from within go by memory or by karma. You have to develop the discrimination of what is. WHAT IS YOUR PERSONAL YOGA you will make you firmer, more secure, PRACTICE LIKE THESE DAYS? Pattabhi Jois: No, they have not and stronger. changed. They have remained the same Desikachar: Next question, please. WHAT IS UNIQUE TO YOUR STYLE OF the whole time. Our method from the Iyengar: I will not boast. Everybody will YOGA? beginning has been that a posture needs tell you that I am still practicing. I do Desikachar: It is not a style. It is not a to be perfected before you move on to my sadhana [meditational practice] and method. It is not Vini yoga. We never more difficult ones. Each posture works still do the postures. I do all the postures use Vini yoga. Those who do, do it for progressively to increase the energy level you see in Light on Yoga and do them the purpose of business. I have told and the opening of the body. every day. people that if they do Vini yoga, not to WHAT IS THE BEST REMEDY FOR Pattabhi Jois: I continue to practice use my name. So, those who come here HELPING PEOPLE? DO YOU TREAT pranayama and recite the Vedas for an don’t come to practice the Vini yoga EVERYBODY EQUALLY? hour and a half to two hours every day. style, they come to see me. Desikachar: If somebody asks me, then Iyengar: Let my students answer that. I will help. But if they will not allow me ON SPIRITUALITY They see me. to, how can I help? How can I fill a glass WHAT IS THE MEANING OF Pattabhi Jois: What is particular to with water that is already full? SPIRITUALITY TO YOU? Ashtanga yoga practice is what we Pattabhi Jois: Taking practice! And to Desikachar: Spirituality is not religion. call vinyasa, which brings together make people aware of yama [the first It is to care for one’s family, for breathing with physical movement. limb of Ashtanga yoga] and [the society—to heal and look after the Each posture is connected with a second limb of Ashtanga yoga], and interests and well-being of people. To certain breathing sequence, which of how to control their bodies—these give oneself to the service of humanity comes before and after it. This keeps are the best remedies. When they are facilitates the greatest spirituality within the flow of energy through the spine aware, controlling the senses becomes man. All dogmas are transcended by open. It also safeguards against injury easier. But, primarily, yama and niyama following this principle—that is what I learned from my father. You see, at and prevents energy from stagnating are the best remedies for anybody with my age, my father was living in a small in the body. Vinyasa purifies the body, an interest in the practice. house, three meters by three meters the nervous system, and cultivates the square, which was divided by a curtain proper energetic field in the body. It in the middle. He was teaching in the

FALL 2004 15 front of the house and my mother is clean, like a church, I will go in. It consciousness and to expand, at the same was cooking in the back. You wouldn’t is the same with the body. A healthy time, our level of consciousness within believe the circumstances he lived in, body, a clean body, is more conducive the body. If you don’t know your body, but he loved it. And I always think to reflecting the mysteries of the soul. don’t know your hand, your backbone, of the generosity he showed. He was If you are suffering and sick and are or your knee, how can you develop this so poor and had five children and yet approached by someone who is even awareness? When performing asanas, his teacher had told him to go and be more sick and stinking of death than the student’s body assumes numerous a yoga teacher. He could have been you, you will naturally feel repulsed. life forms found in creation—from the a Sanskrit professor at any university If that person then asks for your mercy lowliest insect to the most perfected in India, but because he respected his and help, you will feel no inclination to sage—and learns that in all these, there teacher, he dedicated himself to passing give it and will say instead, “Don’t come breathes the same universal spirit, the on the teachings of yoga, and to living near me! Get out!” So it is with sickness spirit of God. He looks within himself simply and conveying the greatness of and old age. When they approach, it while practicing and feels the presence yoga through his humble manner. The can already be too late, if one has never of God.4 So, asanas act as a bridge to king tried to give him rewards, but he looked after one’s body. So, to fulfill unite the body with the mind, and the would not accept them, because he your dharma, you have to honor the mind with the soul. knew that, as soon as he did, he would body. Pattabhi Jois: Behind the strength become a beggar. And the instant a Iyengar: That is your question—your of the body, there is an energy that is teacher becomes a beggar to the king, mind, not my mind. I do not demark spirituality, and that is what keeps us differences between the body, the mind, he is no longer a teacher. This is what I alive. To gain access to the spiritual, and the self. To me, the body is the remember of my father. you need to understand the physical. Iyengar: I have written about this in my biggest self, the mind, a smaller self, and the self, the smallest self. So, they are all The body is our temple and inside that books. You can refer to them. temple is atman, and that is God. Pattabhi Jois: Spirituality means interconnected. In my practice, I seek to unite them and to experience how they HOW WOULD YOU DEFINE PURUSA? energy and to meditate on that energy is are all interwoven. You see, the soul is Desikachar: I am sleeping and get up spirituality. So, developing and having the same for all individuals and nations, faith in this energy is spirituality. What in the morning and say, “Why did but our conditioning and culture I sleep so well?” But how do I know the shastras tell me is what I believe, determines our predisposition and this? Because of the purusa, which is which is the Indian custom: outlook. The body is the receptacle for something that is not sleeping, but is Tasmat shastram pramanam te karya the soul and the mind—our operating always present within us, all the time. akaryavyvasthitau tool for processing information and Pattabhi Jois: Purusa is light, the for being discriminative. The three Jnatva shastravidhanoktam karma light that is atman, which is all work incessantly together, but a greater kartum iharhasi and everything. Purusa is jiva [the BG 16:24 awareness of the physical body paves the way for a better receptivity to the individual soul], whereas prakriti [Therefore let the scriptures be your dormant spirituality within. Yoga [nature] is maya, or delusion. Due to authority in ascertaining what ought to awakens the core of infinite possibility the confusion that comes from living be done and what ought not to be done. inside and confirms to the practitioner in the world of samsara [the cycle of Knowing what has been prescribed by the extent of its applicability, rather rebirth], we fail to see the difference the scriptures, you should act in this than restricting it only to one area. The between purusa and prakriti, and treat manner.] rays of the sun spread out everywhere. them, instead, as one. But they are not So, the sacred scriptures are the whole Equally, the rays of the soul pervade one. Purusa is the pure, inner awareness foundation of our spiritual tradition. everywhere in our operational being. of all that is, yet It is never subject to All our mental differences and Without them, we are left to our own the fluctuations of the mind. impressions. But with the scriptures, predispositions are limited by time and space, but when we realize and rest in DOES YOGA CULTIVATE AN we are given a guide to follow. In the UNDERSTANDING OF PURUSA? absence of belief, we can never really the core of our being, in our infinite Desikachar: Yoga is like a cloud and the lift the veil of our own ignorance and potential, we awaken to a consciousness practice of yoga moves the cloud. There discover what lies beyond it. Thus that is universal and no longer limited by our previous identification with it. is disturbance, there is disruption, spirituality is believing. This consciousness is direct, has no form there are difficulties, but the practice WHAT IS SPIRITUAL ABOUT THE or shape, and yet is reflected in our body of yoga centers the person in his own PHYSICAL PRACTICE? and mind as an energy field, which we natural self. Naturally, when we sleep, Desikachar: If I go to a temple and are free to interpret. We therefore something subsists beyond our dreams there is a lot of mess in front of it, I don’t engage in physical exercises designed to or beyond deep sleep. That is thepurusa . feel like going inside. But if the temple both present potent information to our Equally, when we think and experience, 4 Light On Yoga: 60 16 FALL 2004 something is always there, facilitating HOW DOES YOUR SYSTEM FACILITATE the state of equilibrium inside. When our experience. To come to grips with THE EXPERIENCE OF YOGA? something is contorted, awareness can this is the process of yoga. To facilitate Desikachar: That is up to the student, become hard from too much effort, but an understanding of our mental modes not to me. until there is no distortion, everything of operation and to finally experience Pattabhi Jois: To practice asanas and will remain the same. Yoga therefore That which is the support of the whole pranayama is to learn to control the becomes the skill of resting with process is also the process of yoga. body and the senses, so that the inner things in their equanimity and simply Pattabhi Jois: Only indirectly. Directly, light can be experienced. That light exploring what is presented beyond the it is the vrittis [thought patterns] which is the same for the whole world. And pair of opposites. Energy then flows we come to control by the practice it is possible for people to experience without interruption. Some people call of yoga. It is not the purusa, which is this light, their own Self, through it physical, others may call it spiritual. I constant and always there, though the correct yoga practice. It is something would say it is a homecoming. Pattabhi Jois: practice does give one a clear mind, which that happens through practice, though The atman [individual soul; inner Self] is the same in all may lead to an awareness of It. The actual learning to control the mind is very difficult. Most important though is the people, but we give a name and form to understanding being facilitated, however, practice. We must practice, practice, It according to the nature of our mind is of the thought patterns, or the vrittis. practice for any real understanding and sense organs. Taking yoga practice How they operate, how they bind you, of yoga. Of course, philosophy is helps control the mind and sense organs and how you can gradually learn to important, but if it is not connected so that awareness eventually goes inside, experience what lies beyond them—that and grounded in truth and practical toward this atman. There are two types is what we come to understand by the knowledge, then what is it really for? of yoga, external and internal. Yama, practice of yoga. Just endless talking, exhausting our niyama, asana, and pranayama are WHAT IS THE MEANING OF THE YOGA minds! So, practice is the foundation of external. Pratyahara, dharana, dhyana, SUTRA YOGA CHITTA VRITTI NIRODHA? the actual understanding of philosophy. and are internal. As you take Desikachar: The understanding mind WHAT IS THE MEANING OF THE practice, you come to see God inside. YOGA SUTRA TADA DRASTUH SVARUPE plays a part in many activities. When The Katha Upanisad tells this: AVASTHANAM? all these are focused on one thing for a certain length of time, as I am listening Desikachar: Read my book. Paranci khani vyatrnat svayambhuh to you now, then you are in a state of Iyengar: Haven’t I told you this before? Tasmat paran pasyati nantaratman yoga. Being attentive is thus a form of In asana, there is a centrifugal movement Kasciddhirah Pratyagatmanam aiksat yoga. of consciousness towards the frontiers of Avrtacaksur amrtatvam icchan Pattabhi Jois: Patanjali’s definition the body, whether extended vertically, Kathopanisad 4.1 is simple: “Yoga is the process of horizontally, or circumferentially, and [The self-existent Lord afflicted ending the definitions of the field a centripetal movement as well, as the the senses so that they go outward. of consciousness.” But to actually whole body is brought to a single focus. Therefore, one sees outer things and not understand this in one’s being is of a If the attention is steadily maintained the inner Self. A discriminating man, wholly different order. To understand in this manner, meditation takes desiring immortality, turns his eyes 5 words and concepts is easy, but to let place. Thus, in the advanced practice away (from sense objects) and then sees the experience of yoga penetrate deep of asana, the rhythmic flow of energy the indwelling Self.] into one’s heart, to realize fully what and awareness is experienced evenly and one is made of, and, finally, to establish without interruption, both centripetally So, when the sense organs are controlled, the mind in the Self—these are very and centrifugally, throughout the you will come to see your true Self, that difficult. channels of the body, and a pure state is atman. of joy will eventually be felt in the cells Manushyanam sahasreshu and the mind. The body, mind, and soul WHAT IS YOUR DEFINITION OF ABHYASA kaschidyatati siddhaye AND VAIRAGYA? are then one. This is the manifestation Yatatamapi siddhanaam kascinmam of dharana and dhyana in the practice Desikachar: Abhyasa is the effort to vetti tattvatah of asana.6 Awareness that constitutes persist with something over a long period BG 7:3 the very resting place of the soul is of time, diligently and wholeheartedly. [Among thousands of men, one sent everywhere throughout a posture. Vairagya is dispassion for the fruits of perhaps struggles for perfection. When all the muscles are properly such effort. Both are equally important Among thousands of those that maintained, the atman is reflected in for a yoga practitioner. struggle, maybe one becomes perfect, its natural state, without pushing or Iyengar: They are two sides of the but among thousands of men that frowning. So, you see, I just ride the same coin. The head is abhyasa, the are perfect, perhaps one knows tidal wave of awareness, scale away tail is vairagya. They are eternally Me in reality.] the layers of opposition, and rest in connected for the practitioner. Abhyasa

5 Light On Yoga Sutras of Patanjali: 169 6 Light On Yoga Sutras of Patanjali: 150 FALL 2004 17 is a dedicated, unswerving, constant, don’t even want to know of Him. But WHAT IS IT THAT HAS KEPT YOU and vigilant search of a given subject, for anyone who practices yoga correctly, DOING YOGA FOR ALL THESE YEARS? pursued against all odds and in the face the love of God will develop. And, after Desikachar: When I’m travelling, I of repeated failures, for an indefinitely some time, a greater love for God will must confess, yoga has become an long period of time. Vairagya is the be theirs, whether they want it or not. addiction to me—a good addiction. cultivation of freedom from passion, It is true and that is why yoga is real. I feel sick if I don’t do my practice or the abstention from worldly desires It develops inside you and helps you to meditate. I think that what I am today and appetites, and the discrimination realize the inner light of the Self. is because of yoga. I see colleagues from between what is real and what is not my university and they look so sick, real. It is the act of giving up all sensuous THE FUTURE OF YOGA they are so bored, they have no life, no delights. Abhyasa builds confidence and HOW DO YOU VIEW THE FUTURE OF light. Here in India, when they retire, refines the process of cultivating the YOGA? people get bored with life. They get sick. consciousness, while vairagya eliminates Desikachar: I have total faith in the So, how do you generate health? I see the things that hinder progress and future of yoga. my uncle—what an energy he has! And refinement. So, proficiency in vairagya Iyengar: My friend, why do you worry I see Pattabhi Jois—what an energy and develops the ability to free oneself from about the future? Leave it to God. He strength he has! And I see other people the fruits of action. But a bird cannot is eternal. If he wants it to survive, it and they can hardly walk. There is fly with one wing. So, we need the will survive. Who am I to speak of something about yoga. And it proves two wings of practice and dispassion- the future? What have I done? I have that it awakens an energy in people, renunciation to be able to soar up to the cultivated, I have built up, I have that it awakens something beautiful zenith of Soul-realization.7 presented and developed the subject of which sustains and supports them IS GOD IMPORTANT TO A PHYSICAL yoga. Now leave it to eternity. from within, and which reveals itself to PRACTICE? WHAT IS YOUR DEFINITION WHAT IS THE GOAL OF YOGA human nature. OF THE YOGA SUTRA ISHVARA Iyengar: The inner intelligence that is PRANIDHANAD VA? ACCORDING TO YOU? continually being revealed. Desikachar: A good teacher sees the Desikachar: Peace, shanti: that is the commonality of all human beings goal of yoga. and helps each individual find his Iyengar: It is to become free of the uniqueness. Since this is a light present actions that afflict you. When you get in all of us, we must honor humanity rid of these and the body-mind-soul is and let the love of human beings itself be cleansed, what is left? Yoga! what guides us in the process. So, God WHAT IS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING is not necessarily Brahma or Vishnu. IN LIFE TO YOU? He is a reference, like my father is my Desikachar: Shanti. reference and Iyengar is a reference Iyengar: Initially, the practice of yoga, and Pattabhi Jois is a reference too. but now, increasingly, it is to present You don’t know how much difficulty the correct form of yoga to my students they went through when they were around the world. In the beginning, young, how many hardships they had I primarily did yoga to develop my to endure. They are thus models and intelligence and evolutional strength. references for me. I have many gods, Now that I have the knowledge of that, but the most important is Isvara [the I’m using it in the best way I can. So, In-dweller]. Isvara is my model and, first, there was an involution, but now because It is, I have to exert more effort I’m trying to improve the evolution. But and go further and further to align I don’t teach for myself. I share things myself with It. Whatever I need to do, I with people. I have a very big heart and do. Whatever I cannot do, I avoid. That what my heart says is, “Don’t keep it to is the meaning of Patanjali’s sutra. yourself. Don’t let it die.” So, whatever Pattabhi Jois: The reason we do yoga I have, I give to others. When I die, I is to become one with God and to will know that I didn’t keep any secret realize Him in our hearts. You can in my heart, but let it out. And I am still lecture, you can talk about God, but practicing, so God will probably give when you practice correctly, you come me a better life in the next life and I will to experience God inside. Some people start from where I left off. start yoga and don’t even know of Him, 7 Light On Yoga Sutras of Patanjali: 14

18 FALL 2004