Queensland
Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]
Legislative Assembly
THURSDAY, 10 OCTOBER 1940
Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy
Questions. [10 OCTOBER.] Papers. 619
THURSDAY. 10 OCTOBER, 1940. have been available to the State Treasurer in the preparation of the Financial Statement for the year 1931-32. Had it been studied, Mr. SPEAKER (Hon. E. J. Hanson, it is possible that even the Moore Govern ment would have derived sufficient from it Buranda) took the chair at 10.30 a.m. to have enabled it to avoid its disastrous financing of the year 1931-32, which resulted in a recor·d deficit of £2,075,000 for that QUESTIONS. year, and a deterioration in the budgetary Qt;EENSLAND'S PRODUCED NATI01'1"AL INCOME. position of Queensland considerably greater than that o£ any other State Government Mr. MAHER (West Moreton) asked the during that year. If the hon. gentleman Treasurer- finds the above reference books too difficult, '' 1. From what source did he obtain the he might obtain an elementary expo;;ition information which showed the gross pro of the subject in 'Economics for Helen,' duced national income as £150,000,000 in by Hilaire Bello c. '' 1939-40~ MANUFACTURE OF SHELLS AT IPSWICH '' 2. What was the gross value of pro RAILWAY WORKSHOPS. duction of Queensland industries in 1939-40 under the following headings:-(a) Agri Mr. ~IAHER (West Moreton) asked the Minister for Transport- culture, (b) pastoml, (c) daiq, poultry, and bees, (d) forestry and fisheries, ( e·) '' 1. Has any approach been made on mineral, (f) manufacturing, and (g) total g behalf of the Commonwealth Government for the manufacture of shells at the Ipswich '' 3. In view of the fact that production Railway "\Vorkshops ~ retums for 1939-40 are not due until next year and that the Commonwealth '' 2. Has any contract been made W Statistician cannot supply gross production '' 3. If so, has new machinery to be figures for 1939-40 until about this time installed, and to what extent W next year, how has he been able to obtain '' 4. When does he anticipate that shells these statistics so soon~ will be turned out at these workshops g '' '' 4. In making his estimate of the gross The JUIXISTER FOR TRANSPORT produced national income in 1940-41, did (Hon. J. Larcnmbe, Rockhampton) replied- he take the drought factor into considera tion?" " 1. Yes. TI1e TREASURER (Hon. F. A. Cooper, '' 2. Substantial progress has been made, J3remer) replied- but the contract has not yet been finalised. '' 1 to 4. For the preparation of accurate '' 3. Yes; but the exact quantity required Budget estimates, some forward estimate of cannot be stated at present. · national income is necessary, and the '' 4. An agreement has just been arrived statistics quoted in the Financial Statement at concerning the necessary building, the of national income were based on estimates erection of which will occupy four or five prepared by the Director of the Bureau of months. It is hoped to undertake the Industry and Government Statistician. The production of shells when the buil-ding is estimate was prepa'red by the multiplier available for use.'' method, 1vhich has been found, from past experience, to give results within 2 per cent. PAPERS. of the correct figure. This method gives total gross income, but not the subdivision The following papers were laid on the tabie by industries. The Commonwealth Statis and ordered to be printed:-- tician publishes production statistics from information furnished by the State Statis Submission of the Queensland Government ticians some time after the end of the to the Power Alcohol Production Inquiry. period to which these statistics refer, but a Report of the Director, State Children certain amount of preliminary information Department for the year 1939. is available. The drought factor was taken into consideration in computing the esti Report of the manager, Golden Casket Art mated gross national income for 1940-41. Union, for the year 1939-40. References to the multiplier method of The following papers were laid on the determination of national income are foun·d table:- in the following publications:-' Australia, 1930,' by Professor L. F. Giblin; 'National Order in Council, dated 3 October, 1940, Income of Australia,' by Crawford and under the State Electricity Commission Clark; 'Review of Economic Statistics,' Act of 1937. October, 1938, by R. and W. M. Stone; Regulation, dated 3 October, 1940, under R F. Kahn in the 'Economic Journal,' the Water Acts, 1926 to 1937. 1931; 'General Theory of Employment, Interest, and Money,' by J. M. Keynes. Order in Council, dated 3 October, 1940, Professor Giblin 's 'Australia, 1930' should under the Fau!la Protection Act of 1937. 620 Medical Act Amendment Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.
FEES PAID BY CROWN TO BARRISTERS SUPPLY. AND SOLICITORS. RESUMPTION OF COMJ\IITTEE-ESTIMATES RESCISSION OF ORDER FOR PRINTING RETURN. PIRST AND SECOND ALLOTTED DAYS. The ACTING ATTORNEY-GENERAL (Mr. King, Maree, in the chair.) (Hon. J. O'Keefe, Cairns) (10.37 a.m.), by leave, without notice: I move- ESTIMATES IN CHIEF, 1939-1940. '' That the Order of the House made on EXECUTIVE AND LEGISLATIVE. 1 October for the printing of the Return to HIS EXCELLENCY THE GOVERNOR (BALANCE Order relative to fees paid to barristers OF VOTE). and solicitors, J 939-40, be rescinded.'' The PREJUIER (Hon. W. Forgan Smith, The reason is that I inadvertently moved that Mackay): I move- the paper be printed, but in accordance with the Government's policy of saving expense '' That £3,54 7 be granted for 'Executive as much as possible in the printing of papers, and Legislative-His Excellency the I now ask that that motion be rescinded. Governor (Balance of Vote).' " llr. Maher: But it will be laid on the 'fhe CHAIRiUAN: Before putting the table. question, I desire to intimate to hon. members that I intend to follow the practice of pre The ACTING ATTORNEY-GENERAL: vious Chairmen of Committeeg of allowing It has already been laid on the table. full discussion on the main vote of each depart ment, that is, as regards consolidated revenue Motion agreed to. votes, and then to confi·ne discussion to each particular vote. CI'fY OF BRISBANE ACTS k:\1ENDl\1ENT lUr. MAHER (West Moreton) (10.43 BILL. a.m.) : First of all, I should like to suggest that the Opposition should surely be entitled INITIATIOK. to know the order in which it is proposed to The SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND discuss the various Estimates. I think that HOME A.FFAIRS (Hon. E. M. Hanlon, that is only fair. One way of approaching Ithaca): I move- the matter 1vould be if the Premier would be good enough to agree that such departments '' 'l'hat the House will, at its next sitting, as have already furnished their reports to Par resolve itself into a Committee of the 'Whole limnent be taken :first. There are now two to consider of the desirableness of intro or three departmental reports available. It ducing a Bill to amend the City of Brisbane would be of great help to us if we could Acts, 1924 to 1937, in certain particulars, have an understanding that vYe shall proceed and for other purposes.'' to discuss the Estimates in the order in which Motion agreed to. those reports are available, so that we might be able to apply ourselves to an intelligent and constructive criticism of the various Estimates concerned. 'fhe Premier and hon. NURSES AND MASSEURS REGISTRA members in general will agree with me that TION ACTS AMENDMENT BILL. it is difficult to discuss the Estimates of the INITIATION. current year with no later information than a departmental report that is 12 months old. The SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND Therefore, I think it is only right that the HOThiE AFl<'Allt:S (Hon. E. M. Hanlon, Opposition should be met in the way I sug Ithaca) : I move- gest. If the Premier does not feel disposed '' That the House will, at its next sitting, to meet us to that extent, then I think we resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole should have laid on the table of the House to consider of the desirableness of introduc the order in which the Estimates will be ing a Bill to amend the Nurses and Masseurs taken so that we might be able to prepare Registration Acts, 1928 to 1938, in a certain ourselves for constructive criticism of pro particular.'' posed appropriations that vitally concern the 1vellbeing of the State. Motion agreed to. I wish to refer once again to the bureau cratic trend of the legislation of the Govern MEDICAL ACT AMENDMENT BILL. ment in their administration of the affairs of the State. Ever since the present Government INITIATION. came into power in 1032, the predominant The SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND theme running through the whole of their HOME AFFAIRS (Hon. E. M. Hanlon, legislation in the administration of the State Ithaca) : I move- is one that is really sidetracking Parlia ment-- '' That the House will, at its next sitting, resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole The CHAIRMAN: The vote under discus to consider of the desirableness of introduc sion is that of ''His Excellency the Governor ing a Bill to amend the Medical Act of (Balance of Vote).'' That vote provides for 1939 in a certain particular.'' the salaries of the aide-de-camp, the official secretary, the confidential clerk, orderly, lodge Motion agreed to. keeper, and clerk-typist. Supply. [10 OCTOBER.] Supply. 621:
Mr. MAHER: Are we not discussing the LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY. general offtce ~ The PREMIER (Hon. W. Forgan Smith, The Premier: We have not reached that Mackay): I move- yet. '' That £31,240 be granted for 'Legisla Mr. MAHER: Legislative Assembly tive Assembly.' '' would be under the chief office vote. lUr. ~IAHER (West Moreton) (10.50 The Premier: We have not come to that a.m.): At the third effort-- yet. The Premier: You are not on the right Jlir. MAHER: I do not follow your ruling, vote now. 1fT. King. The CHAIR~IAN: To put the hon. gentle The Premier: The vote we are discuss man on the conect lines, the place for him to raise the matter that he desires to ing is that of His E•xcellency the Governor. ventilate is on the vote for ''Premier and Mr. MAHER: And the Eocecutive Coun Chief Secretary.'' cil nncl the Legislative Assembly. I think it Mr. ~IAHER: No. I propose to discuss is within my power to discuss any problem the poweTs of the Legislative Assembly and affecting the Legislative Assembly. the Premier and Chief Secretary's Depart The CHAIRJUAN: The hon. gentleman mmt has nothing to do with them. will have an opportunity to discuss that later The CHAIRMAN: I will hear what the when we come to the vote for the Legislative hon. gentleman has to orry, and then decide Assembly. the mattcT. :llr. JUAHER: I see. Mr. JUAHER: I want to draw actention to the fact that for the convenience of the Items (His Excellency the Governor Government of the day, Parliament is becom Balance of Vote) agree a to. ing something in the nature of a sideshow, that it has onlv a nuisance value, and that EXECUTIVE COUNCIL. it is not disch~Tging the functions that the elected rcpresE'nlatives of the people aTe sent The PRE~HER (Hon. W. Forgan Smith, heTe to carry out. Parliament is not con Mackay) : I move- sulter] eoncerning the expcndituTe of large sums of monev running perhaps into millions '' That £90 be granted for 'Executive of pounds io~ various construction works. Council. ' '' The Bnrea~ of Industry Act gives the Bureau pmver to borrow money for vario1_1s proje.cts Mr. JUAHER (West Moreton) (10.47 by the issue of debentures, ana. m meetmg a.m.): I think it is competent for me to cany CTiticism of the kind I have JUSt levelled on my discussion under this vote. I was at this practice, the Premier has said that referring to the vesting in the Executive of Parliament is consulted, because after the powers that rightly belong to the Legislative Burerru of Industry has recommended the Assembly. I have, in recent times, drawn work the m a tt<'r comes before the Governor attention to the fact that important problems in Council for ratification, and that in due connected with the government of the country course the monev required for the under are being decided by the Executive Council takin" comes before Parliament for con and not by the Legislative Assembly. Under sirler:rtion in the form of an Appropriation the Bureau of Industry Act passed in 1933, Bill or the Estimate'S. The Bureau of Indus for instance, it is provided that the Bureau trv has power to recommend certain pro might acquire land and construct works, and jects to the Govemor in Counc~l, and it,.;nay should be a local body for the purposes of be authorise(} to borrow outs1de the .1 rea the Local Bodies' Loans Guarantee Act. snry. In those cases Parliament is givc11 no A part from loans from the Treasury it was opportunity to debate the expendit:ue authorised to borrow outside by the issue of involYed and as it is an outside borrowmg debentures-- and not' a Treasury borro1ving Parliament has no control over the operations of the The CHAIRMAN: Order! I do not want Bureau of Industry to that extent. There to prevent the hon. gentleman from discussing fore I say that impoTtant works may be the subject he has in mind. I should like undPl'taken in this State involving £1,000,000 to draw his attention to the fact that this is or £2 000 000 without the consent of Parlia a very simple vote. It is a vote conce1•ning ment' or 'without the authority of Parlia the appropriation of £90 for the Executive ment to raise the money required. That is Council. The hon. gentleman will have an opportunity later on of dealing with the a very important point. matter he is concerned with. He cannot deal \Ye have eviaence all about us of the with it on this vote. The vote only provides existc11ce of the practice. For instance, the for a sum of money to be allocated to the Financial Statement mentions that the clerk of the Executive Council. Government propose to build a bridge at ~t. Lucia and that is the first hint that Parha Mr. MAHER: I will wait until the next ment 'has had of such an intention. Yester vote. day the Treasurer said that the cos~ of the Vote (Executhe Council) agreed to. bridge would probably not exceed £100,000, 622 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply. but even if it exceeds £1,000,000 the money to find the money for that road, it should could be raised by an issue of debentures decide what is the best route to take, and we through the Bureau of Industry, and Parlia should have the evidence of the defence ment would have no voice in the questions engineers before us. For all we know, before whether the bridge should be built and this road is completed it might cost £5,000 whether the money should be• provi\1ed. These a mile or more; therefore, a huge sum of matters are decided by the Governor in money is involved. If the cost is to fall Council and not by Parliament at all. on the taxpayers of this State, as I believe it is, from what the Premier said last year, The Premier: Does not Parliament although I am open to correction-- approve of the Budget:' The Premier: I have to correct you all l.Ur. lUAIIER: Parliament passes the the time. Budget in which a small sum is mentioned as being required for the construction of the Mr. MAHER: I should like to have a bridge, but Parliament is not consulted as clearer view as to who is providing the cost to the wisdom of constructing it. The of this road. I am raising the question this Govemor in Council decided to embark upon morning to get that information. the construction of a University at St. Lucia. I do not know what the ultimate cost of it The Premier: I will give you the answer will be; that ha,<;_ ne veT been disclosed to as I go. Parliament. Before it is :finished it may cost Mr. MAHER: The main principle still £500,000, or it may cost even twice that stands, namely, that the road is going to cost amount. a good deal of money, and, therefore, Parlia 'l'he wisdom of building a University at ment should be consulted as to whether the St. Lucia has not come before Parliament. route selected is in the best interests of the These >vorks may seem desirable to the State or of Jefence. "\Ye have not been con Premier and members of his Cabinet, but, sulted about the ultimate cost of the road. after all, if large sums are involved in the The project has not been placed before Par construction of these works, surely the people liament in a businesslike way so that we can who are answerable-the taxpayers, who in assess its value to the State, or pass juJg the final analysis have to foot the bill-are ment on the wisdom of spending a large sum entitled to be consulted. 'l'hat is not only of money on a road on that route. I am not a courtesy due to us, but a definite right. opposing that route. This is not an occasion for opposing any of these undertakings that vVhen we come to the Estimates we :find the Government are embarking on. I have votes for these works included in a piece initiated this debate merely to establish the meal fashion. Por example, something like principle that Parliament should be considered £25,000 is provided in the Estimates for the about the expenditure of large sums of money. St. Lucia bridge. 'l'hat sum will not build the bridge. What opportunity is there in the There is also the decision to build a block nmltitudinous sums of money and projects of buildings in Anzac Square. Whilst I embraced in the Budget to dissect one par recognise that it would be quite futile to ticular item and deal with it, or seriously expect the Government to come before Parlia oppose it if we want toW That is the point ment seeking ratification of a proposal to involved. These large expenditures of public build a number of relatiYcly small public funds should come before Parliament for buildings, at the same time it is desirable, deci3ion; they should not be decided by the where large projects are concerned involving, Governor in Council at all. perhaps, several hundreds of thousands of pounds, that Parliament should be advised Another example is what is termed the of them. inland strategical road. The position ought to be clarified; there is some confusion out The legislators should have an opportunity side Parliament about it. The Financial of deciding whether any project is in the Statement this year refers to the inland best interests of the State. If we do not strategical road. That, I presume, is the road have that opportunity Parliament merely from Brisbane up the Brisbane Valley, whose becomes a dummy institution that has to ultimate destination is Charters Towers. The acquiesce in the decisions of the Governor in Estimates provide a sum of £227,500 for its Council based upon recommendations made construction. Parliament has had no say as by an ever-increasing number of bureiw to ·whether this route is a wise one. All we cra tic institutions. know is that the Governor in Council has One can see the same autocratic trend in agreed to the construction of an inland the provisions of the State Development and strategical road. I think the Premier stated Public Works Organisation Act, in which the last year that the works engineers of the Co-ordinator-General of Public Works or Defence Department had approved that road, the Governor in Council may order local but, the question is: is the Defence Depart authorities to carry out works authorised by ment paying for the road~ If the Defence the Co-ordinator-General. The local authori Department is paying for the road then it ties' power is taken away from them. is competent for its works engineers, seeing that it is paying the piper, to call the tune Then we have the Burdekin River Trust and say where the road is to be built. Never Bill in which the tr.ust has no say at all, the theless, this Parliament has a right to be provision being that such works as the consulted, even though the engineers recom Co-ordinator-General, with the consent of the mend a certain route. If this Parliament has MinisteT, may from time to time direct or Supply. [10 OcTOBER.] Supply. 623 approve must be carried into effect by the is the feeling in the minds of every person tru.~t. There is an autocracy that is becom who values democracy in its purest form. If ing more and more evident in the powers of we are to have a true reflection of what the this Government. Othe1· evidence of the people ~want, we must have proper discussion trend is to be found in the Licensing Com in this Assembly, and no discussion is more mission, which is given power to destroy the important than that which hinges round the livelihood of a citizen and arbitrarily fix undertaking of pub1ic works for the develop eompensation without any right of appeal. ment of our country. If Cabinet is going to Again, the State Transport Commission may arrogate to itself the right to determine what withdraw any permit for carrying goods on is good for the development of the State, we a traffic road or in a traffic district, without may as well close the doors of Parliament compensation. Then there are the Coal House. That is what is happening. Even those Boards, which can license or delicense coal hon. members who sit behind the Cabinet mines. Under the Sawmills Licensing Act of and who are apparently helpless to alter the 1936 the Minister may refuse a licence or conditions that ha.-e de.-eloped are as much cancel a licence to operate a sawmill. It all involved as members of the Opposition. If goes to show how the people of the i:'itate they see the powers of Parliament being are more and more coming under the control, gradually taken out of their hands-if they by the legislative enactments of this Govern see them being whittled away and given to ment, of bureaucratic bodies against whose autocratic bodies that fashion the affairs of decision no appeal lies. The Acts dealing >vith State-i.e., bureaucratic institutions such as those four bodies that I have refened to the Bureau of Industry and the Co-ordinator give no right of appeal to the people whose General of Public Works and others that may rights and privileges, and daily bread, are yet be established by the Government-and aftected by their decisions. All this legisla· if they see that millions of pounds of money tion has been introduced since the Govern are being gi.-en to these autocratic bodies by ment assumed of!ice in 1932, the Cabinet--bodies that are not subject to a public vote at all-and if they see that Last year the hon. member for Toowoomba, these . b?dies are agreeing to the expenditure when speaking on this vote, drew attention in of nnlhons of pounds of money on certain a very excellent speech to the very same works, even to the detriment of the people abuses that I am referring to this morning. and also against the order of the duly elected \Vhat he said on that occasion is worth rer;rcsenta.tives of Parliament, they are not quoting. Here it is- domg theu duty by remaining silent. ' 'Parliament is becoming more and more 'rhat is the point involved. If Parliament an acquiescing authority in the decisions is to remain a mouthpiece of democracy-if of the Cabinet.'' the people are to express themselves through The hon. member for Toowoomba is a dis their elected repre,~entatives-why are not criminating and capable young man who has those elected representatives given an oppor observed events about him, and he found it tunity to decide whether these larg-e public necessary to make that criticism in Parlia works are in the best interests of the coun ment last year. I have no doubt he had in try, whether the sums of money involved mind that more and more power was being should be voted for these projects or not~ exercised by the Cabinet as distinct from Parliament. That ~was the basis of his criti I want to emphasise this point once again: cism. To be just to the hon. member for These autocratic bodies are recommending Toowoomba, I admit that he certainly directed public works to Cabinet, and irrespective of his remarks against the trend he thought was whether they receive the money by debentures observable in Australian Parliaments gener from outside or by Treasury loans, the ally, and he quoted Sir Isaac Isaacs as having expenditure of that money does not come said- before Parliament at all. The projects do not come before Parliament. 'l'he project is '' Australian Governments were becoming decided by the Cabinet, and therefore the more executive than parliamentary. Par elected repreaentatives of the people have no liament should not be an administrative voice in the matter whatsoever. body, but it should control administrators, and should see that the delegation of its Of course, if Labour members supporting powers did not mean the surrender of them. the Premier submit to the abrogation of their If Parliament becomes a mere sounding democratic rights and privileges, and if they board for the Cabinet, the danger was are willing to justify that course to the that parliamentary government would fall public who elect them, they might as well into contempt. This would lead to political give up their rights to call themselves free a trophy or civil division and disorder." representatives of the democracy of this coun try. They are so no longer. They do not \Vhen such an eminent jurist and legislator speak for the people, and they do not repre as Sir Isaac Isaacs could perceive that trend sent the people. They are merely automatons in some of our Australian Parliaments, or recording the voice of Cabinet, plus an auto wherever it exists, every person who values cratic body such as the Bureau of Industry democratic privileges and institutions should or the Co-ordinator-General of Public Works. be willing to struggle hard to resist it. vVe have reached that sorry pass in our This, Mr. King, is not any sectional appeal a~airs in which we are seeing Parliament I make this morning from the point of view bemg treated more and more as a sideshow of the Opposition. I submit that what I say by the Government. 624 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.
We see Parliament falling into disrepute ment as to whether that proposal is right or to-day because of the actions of the people wrong~ If hon. members say that it is dght, who should give the greatest strength and then I say we know where we are heuding. backing to Parliament. If any hon. member If they say it can be shown that it is right, sits in this Parliament as I do, and observes then I am exaggerating here to-day. the state of the front benches, he will find that there is an apparent disregard of their The Premie-r: You are doing more than duties to Parliament by the Ministers. It is exaggerating. E•verything you have said is a rare thing to have more than one or two untrue. Ministers sitting on the front benches while Mr. MAHER: Where is it untrue? The important debates are proceeding. The Premier has argued in this Chamber that Government appear to think that the position Parliament gets its opportunity on the Esti is well met if the Minister concerned with mates or on the Appropriation Bill to discuss the legislation before the House is in his any of these important projects that. have place. been recommended by outside bodies. I agree Mr. McLe,an: The Ministers have many that Parliament does get a chance-limited other dutie-s to perform. howeYer-on the Financial Statement to dis cuss piecemeal the various votes such as- Mr. MAHER: We have to ask ourselves if the system is right or wrong. I have £ pleaded previously in this House for a rever University .. 97,000 sion to the afternoon and night sittings. Any St. Lucia Bridge 25,000 hon. member who sat here the other night Buildings 407,000 when debate was proceeding would have dis covered that there was a full attendance of 'l'hat is piecemeal expenditure, but Parliament hon. members in the House, and the front does not get the right to discuss whether benches were well represented by Ministers it is fit and proper that we should build a of the Crown. The debate was very interest University. It does not get the Tight to vote ing, therefore, and Ministers had some oppor on the estimated cost of that University, or tunity of hearing what hon. members on both to say whether the St. Lucia bridge should sides had to say about the matters that came be constructed. We have an item, "St. Lucia up for consideration. How can Ministers bridge, £25,000,'' yet nobody knows exactly inform themselves as to the feeling,s of the what that bridge will cost, and Parliament elected representatives of the people if they is not called upon to express its opinion as are not in their places when debates are to whether it is a good thing to have that proceeding~ bridge. Either Parliament is a good institution, or That money might be more wisely used in it is not. If those people who call them other directions, such as in the construction selves democrats and who loudly proclaim the of the Burdekin River bridge. These things, virtues of democracy are not willing to see covering important projects all over the that Parliament carries out its functions State, do not come up for decision within this properly, then I might- as well say that we Parliament. The Premier can say what he are heading for some form of autocracy in likes to the effect that my statements are not this country similar to what has overtaken true. Those who study the position know European countries. Parliament will eventu that what I have been saying is true, and ally fall into complete disrepute and we shall that there is no exaggeration whatever. find bureaucTacies, boards, commissions, and bodies taking responsibility for the dischaTge Tl1e Premier: Can you blame me for of public duties and the expenditure of public the fact that you do not understand the S'tanding Orders~ money. Parliament will become a dead letteT. It strikes at the very fundamentals of our Mr. MAHER: The Premier is not going democratic rights. Therefore, I say to-day, to draw me off the trail by reference to the it is with great alarm that I view the trend Standing Orders, nor is it right that he should away from democracy by the pTesent Govem reflect upon your judgment, Mr. King. ment. The CHAIRMAN: The Premier is not Mr. Uealy: That is all exaggeration. reflecting upon my judgment. Mr. MAHER: There is no exaggeration Mr. MAHER: I accept your assurance. about it. Any hon. member of this Com What I have said is true, and the Premier mittee who has watched the fTOnt benches knows it to be so. No such thing as exag during the past yeal' or t.wo, if he is true geration is involved. Parliament is not being to himself, his inner pTomptings, and his called upon to decide, as the Governor in conscience, can come to no other conclusion Council does the deciding on the recommen than that that is the trend to-day. Can any dation of the Bureau of Industry or the hon. member here justify the right of the Co-ordinator-General of Public Works. We Bureau of Industry to make recommendations have no say in the matter at all. Once again to the Governor in Council for a project that I say that when money is raised by deben might cost £1,000,000, or the right to finance tures outside the Treasury, we as a Parlia that project by debentures outside the Trea ment are nut called upon to vote on it. The sury and to carry out the work without the Premier says that that is not true, but I ask authorisation of Parliament for the money him to show me where Parliament registers involved, or without discussion in this Parlia- its vote on moneys raised outside on the Supply. [10 OcTOBER.] Supply. 625
recommendation of the Bureau of Industry, rests with Parliament, but if the Opposition for the C Budget just as he can on the schedule of a minority should. He is speaking for the Bill. minority and is entitled to speak for the minority. Mr. Maher: It is too late ro stop the work then. It is too late to stop the scheme. lUr. Dart: They do not count? Mr. Russell: It has already been decided. The PREliHER: They ceriainly count. I have helped the hon. gentlemall to the fullest Mr. lUaher: It has then already been extent in my power, but some people decided. are beyond human aid. Socrates, the great The CHAIRMAN: Order! philosopher, in all his wise utterances never said anything more pregnant with truth than The PREMIER: Let me proceed. It is when he said, ''You cannot dig wi,dom out relevant within parliamentary procedure to of the mind where nature had not planted move an amendment on any provision in any it.'' That is the answer to the hon. member Budget. A member might move to omit for East Toowoomba (laughter)-the hon. certain words, or certain clauses, and during member for \Vynnum. the debate on any amendment can ask to be supplied with information. Ho can propose lUr. Yeates: You will have to withdraw the substitution of something he thinks should that. be in the Budget. A]] this is provided for JUr. DART: I rise to a point of order. in the Standing Orders, and can I be blamed I ask that the Premier withdraw that if the Leader of the Opposition and mem remark; it is insulting to me. I have a mind bers of his party prefer to be declamatory, as good as his. and sometimes defamatory, of the Budget rather than intelligently critical? The choice The CHAIRlUAN: There is no point of is theirs. They have made their choice. No order. amendment •vas moved on the Budget; in The PREMIER: I certainly withdraw fact, no amendment has been moved on the the statement as referring to the hon. member Budget during the currency of the present for East Toowoomba; they are pretty much Government's period of office. The proce in the same line of vision. I had no desire dure I have outlined has not been altered to in any way distnr!J the sense of relative since the beginning of this Parliament. importance of the two electorates; nor did There have been alterations in the Standing I wish to reflect on the hon. member for Orders, in detail only, not of any big prin East Toowoomba. ciplc. 'l'he method of presenting a Budget and Estimates and the method of allocating However, be that ns it may, legislation and funds to various projects is the same to-day the powers exercised by the Governor in as when the first Treasurer took office in this Cou_nc~l, Mr. ~ing, are approved by a State. maJority of Parlrament, not a minority; and The impression must not be allo•ved to go all the powers exercised by the Governor in forth that what the Leader of the Opposition Council are contained in Acts of Parliament said is true. What he said is untrue; there so it is Parliament that has given the powe; has been no material alteration in parlia and Parliament can take away that power. mentary practice since this Government came That is the position. 'l'here is nothing into power. 'l'hat is something that members ambiguous about it; there is nothing difficult of Parliament must keep in mind •vhen dis about it. The power exerted by the Executive cussing this vote. I suggest to the Leader Council rests on statutes passed by the of the Oppostiion in all seriousness, as a majority of this Parliament; and the paTliamentarian with some experience, that majority of this Parliament can repeal or better results are achieved by intelligent amend them at any time it desires. So it is criticism than by declamatory and defama futile and a misrepresentation of facts to tory misrepresentation of a Bill or a vote. allege that powers are being exercised out side the control of Parliament. Mr. lUaher: That does not get over the fact you do not consult Parliament at all All these statutory powers are in existence, and, as you know, Mr. King, there is provi about important projects. sion in parliamentary procedure and the The PREMIER: Judging by the inter courts to deal with the Executive Council if jection of the Leader of the Opposition and it exceeds its powers. If the Governor in judging by his speech I can only cmne to Council passes a regulation not in consonance one conclusion: that he wants to do things with a law passed by Parliament, is it not a his way. That is obvious in every word he fact that any person affected can move the utters. Now, the leader of the minority can courts to deal with it~ That has been done never control a Parliament. It is for the time and again, but it has not been done public of the State to decide which party during the occupancy of the Treasury benches shall have a majority in Parliament. The by the present party. We have had none of hon. gentleman has a strange distortion of those cases. In addition, Orders in Council mind that causes him to think that the and regulations may be disallowe-d by this minority he speaks for has the rights of a Parliament. It 1ras only last session that majority in this Parliament, the right to Parliament passed an amendment to the a decisive voice in the legislation and in the Standing Orders to provide that a motion for work that is done by Parliament. The hon. the disallowance of an Order in Council or gentleman's suggestion is based on the idea regulation should be brought on within a the majority should not govern but the certain time of the notice to that effect. It Supply. [10 OcTOBER.] Supply. 627 can thus be seen that there is compiete amount of malversation of facts can get parliamentary control from the time a Bill is away from the facts as I have stated them. passed to the time that any regulation is given effect to in this Parliament. 1\'Ir. JUaher: When you do not bring your Loan Estimates up, how can we excise them~ Coming now to the expenditure of funds, I have informed the Leader of the Opposition The PREMIER: If hon. members take that he had the power, had he so desired, to up time on matters of little or no impor move an amen·dment to the Budget. He has tance, we have to agree to the taking up of not exercised that p-ower, and, therefore, there that time. We do not attempt to control the is only one assumption that any person can Leader of the Opposition, but I want to say arrive at, and that is that Parliament, having straight out to him that if he desires to passed the Budget, the majority of Parliament control the majority in this Parliament he are in favour of it and everything it can obtain that authority only from the contains. That is the important point. Hon. electors of Queensland. members not having exercised any right of 1\Ir. 1\'Ial1er: That does not answer the amendment to alter or repeal it, it must be criticism. assumed that the Budg•2t as such has obtained the consent of the majority of members of The PREMIER: That is a complete Parliament. answer. vVe were elected on a certain policy, we have obtained a certain mandate and the I now come to the Estimates in Chief. The Leader of the Opposition puts forward the Leader of the Opposition tries to lead hon. preposterous proposal that we should abandon members astray by an assertion that works our policy and adopt his. That is his real are undertaken without parli-amentary grievance. In fact, it is his only grievance. authority. I give that also a categorical We are the majority in Parliament. We denial. He used the words, ''votes are put have obtained that majority by the lawful before Parliament piecemeal." ~Well, Mr. consent of the people, and while we have the King, is it not provided in parliamentary majority that majority will decide upon the practice that a Bu·dget should be brought legislation and upon the public policy that dom1 and Estimates put before a Committee is to be carried out. of the Whole in each financial year setting out the estimated expenditure for that finar. JUr. Maher: Your Loan Fund Estimates cial year, and that financial year only~ }'or have never been before this Committee in the a poject that nms into £500,000, ·which is to last five years. be spent over a period of five years, it io obvious that t11erc is no right to ask for The PRElUIER: The whole of the figures £500,000 if only £100,000 is to be spent in are set out in the Estimates, and hon. that financial year. And that is what is done. members have the right to move for their All these big works of which the Leader of excision. the Opposition complains have been approved of by statute, the Budget, or by the Estimates. Mr. 1\'Ialler: When they come up, but :l!,or example, there is a summary in regard to you have never brought them up. the Loan Fnnd Aceount, and one sees that The PRElUIER: They can do that in money is provided for soldiers' settlemerrt, the Budget, and they can do it under the mental hospitals, State Advances Corporation, various headings to which I have alluded. :'viain Roads Commission, loans and subsidies Alternatively, they can do it by a motion of to local bodies, hospitals, Stanley River Dam, no confidence in the Government. I am all(l Queensland University. telling hon. members the constitutional pro· Approval to start the Queensland University cedure, with which apparently the Leader of was given when the first Estimate was the Opposition is not acquainted. Why, in passed. Last year there was an amount of the last year in which I was Treasurer, the £37,000 in the Estimates for that University. Leader of the Opposition thought he had This year the sum of £97,000 is provided. It discovered something wonderful. It was was within the power of Parliament last stated in the Budget that a given amount year, and the year before, to excise that would be spent from the Unemployment item. If it had been excised from the Relief Fund. He thought he had discovered Estimates, that would have been an indica that no provision had been made in ~he tion by Parliament that it did not approve Estimates for that. He argued on that pomt of the University's being built. in this Chamber for 25 minutes. Just over the page of the Estimates was the table The same thing applies to the St. Lucia supplying the figures that he said were not bridge. This year there is the figure of there. He had not taken the trouble to read £25,000 on the Estimates. If Parliament over the page. That is the way he falls into does not approve of the building of that grievous errors. bridge, the proper thing to do is to move an amendment for a reduction of the Estimates Summed up, the real grievance of the by that amount. If such an amendment was Leader of the Opposition is that he is the carried, that bridge could not be proceeded Leader of the Opposition. He aspires to be with. Premier-a worthy ambition-but I suggest that the words of Elbert Hubbard apply with So that :from every standpoint, whether equal force to him as to the man of whom constitutional, legislative, or administrative, they were written. Elbert Hubbard said that there is parliamentary authority for every if you want to accomplish anything in life thing that the Government have done. No you must train for it. I suggest to the 628 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply. Leader of the Opposition that whatever public are having less regard for Parliament ambitions he might have he must train to than they had in the past. equip himself to occupy the post. He is not How do you know? doing that at the present time. The case he llir. Hilton: put forward is based on an entirely wrong :Mr. NIMMO: One has only to have conception of parliamentary functions and a conversation •1"ith a man in the street to a complete ignorance of the rights of know that. Only this morning the Leader of Parliament. the Opposition asked the Treasurer a perf.e~tly fair question for the purpose of obtammg The inland defence road does not come information, and although the Treasurer gave within these Estimates by any means, but I full information in reply he made use of t~e can give the Leader of the Opposition the opportunity to indulge in p~opaffanda for hi~ greatest possible information in regard to it. party and to offer a stuched msult to th(~ It was one of the schemes submitted by the Leader of the Opposition. Any hon. member State Government and approved by the who endeavours to belittle or insult another Commonwealth Government during the period hon. member is only lowering his own dignity Mr. Lyons was Prime Minister. During that and the dignity of Parliament. period there was an agreement between the The Premier said that Parliament waR Commonwealth and the States, and Mr. Lyons always consulted about public expenditure, inaugurated a National Council composed of but Parliament is not always consulted, and himself, with any members he cared to bring there is no doubt about it, we are under along, and the State Premiers. That road autocratic control. An amount of £25,000 was submitted amongst other projects by has been provided on the Estimates for the the State of Queensland and was approved. St. Lucia bridge, but is that the whole story? Later on the Commonwealth Department of In years aone by if a project was to be Defence suggested alteration~ in the route in undertake; by th~ Government, it was ~he Southern Queensland, and after a conference practice to consult Parliamen~ and Parl.Ia of State and Commonwealth engineers the ment wail gi1·cn an opportumty to decide suggested route was approved by the State whether the work should proceed, but not so Government and was begun. Last year to-day. Although an amount of £25,000 has £107,000 was spent from State funds and, I been placed on the Estimates for . t~e should add, £100,000 from Commonwealth St. Lucia bridge we do not know what It ~s funds. going to cost or wha~ revenu?, if a~y, IS Mr. li'Iaher: Last: year? likely to be earned by. It. Parliament IS .not consulted on the qnestwn ''"hether the bndge The PREIUIER: Yes, making £207,000 "-ill be a payable proposal am1 genemlly spent on the work last financial year. Included whether it should be built or not. in the loan allocation to the Main Roads Com mission for 1940-41 is an amount of £2il::i,OOO lUr. I!ilton: You may as well say the for this road. This represents a further same thing aiJout any bridge to be constructed contribution by the State to these works. IJy the ;\fain Roads Commission. The question whether the Commonwealth will lUr. NIMlliO: If the cost of the bridge provide further funds will be discussed at amounts to hundreds of thousands of pounds the next meeting of the Loan Council in then I say ,,.e ;;hould be consulted here. The December. So far there has been no allot hon. member for Carnarvon is a compara ment this year from Commonwealth sources tively new hon. member and. he has no kn?w of funds for any of that work within ledgc of the previous prac~Ice of consultmg the State, but the vote provided by the Parliament about these prOJects. In the p~st State will enable the work to be proceeded Parliament "·as consulted, but that practice with expeditiously. If the Commonwealth lias been gradually whittled down unti~ to-day provides us with an amount similar to that Parliament is not consulted concermng the of last year, the work will be accelerated carrying out of even big works. and the State's tempo increased in proportion. We have done a great deal of work for the Although the Premier said that £25,oqo Commonwealth in many directions. The work was being made available for. the ~t. Lucm done is of benefit both to the State and the bridge, his statement •vas misleadmg. \Ve Commonwealth and its relative benefit to the know that the bridrre will cost more than State and the Commonwealth is appraised by that. In any cnse, did Parliament decide ~o the officers concerned. In some cases the construct the bridge or did the Governor m State pays the whole cost and in other cases Council decide that it would cost so much, the Commonwealth pays the whole cost. that it would return so much by way of There is an agreement between the Com revenue, and that it should be IJuilt ~ !'he Governor in Council may have gone mto monwealth and the States setting out their those figures, but the proposal was n.ot sub respective liabilities. There are no diffi mitted to Parliament and no opportumty was culties about that. The matters are dealt given to hon. members on this side to express with by the authorities established by statute. their opinions about it. Mr. NIMMO (Oxley) (11.50 a.m.): Mr. Dunstan: Was not an amou~t Despite what the Premier has said we are placed on the Estimates last year for this still of the opinion that parliamentary privi purposeW leges are being filched from us. Some of the remarks made in this Chamber are a reflec Mr. NIMMO: No. An amount of £25,000 tion upon Parliament itself, and the general has been pleased on the Estimates this year Supply. [10 OCTOBER.] Supply. 629 to begin the construction of the bridge. Of question asked the other clay by the hon. course, we know that it cannot be built for member for East Toowoomba as to duplica that amount. The fact remains that we are tion of stamp duty on cheques. We have under autocratic control to-day in Queensland. had the National Bank of Australia, the Bank I draw the attention of the Committee to the of New South Wales, and other banks trading fact that during this very session a great in every State of Australia complaining that priy·ilege enjoyed by Parliament, a privilege if a client issues a cheque, say in New South that has been valued in years gone by \Yales, bearing the 2d. stamp duty of that grievances day-was autocratically abolished Sta.te and posted it to a friend here not by Parliament. We are definitely the poorer only must he add 6d. for exchange but the for having that privilege abolished. Government at this end say, ''You must put another 2d. on for stamp duty.'' The time has come to consider seriously the question of legislative action with respect Mr. Duggan: Let them forgo the 6d. to not only the restriction of individual exchange. liberties, but the taking away of traditional rights from Parliament itself also. In war 1'\Ir. NIMMO: These little instances go time there may be some excuse for curtailing to show that the spirit of federation has certain cherished liberties as to free speech, never been consummated. If the Government freedom of the Press, and freedom to criticise, are going in for the pradice of collaring as well as any Government action that might every 2d. for stamp duty they can get, it will dispose of traditional rights, but even in not only canse inconvenience to the trading wartime we should scrutinise every bit of public but destroys the spirit of federation. expenditure. Any curtailment of these rights 'I.' he CHAIRMAN: Order! I am not can be justified only because the items put going to give the hon. member an oppor forward for ·war purpos0s are to meet a tem tunity of duplicating this debate. That porary phase of the nation's life and are not matter has already been discussed. The hon. permanent. In this Chamber yye have Hlcmber may refer in passing to certain witnes: the Brisbane River as an illustration of the that an amount had been provided on the wrong procedure adopted by Parliament. Estimates one year and then again another Certain privileges, he said, have been filched year, and I think that I was strictly within away and the Cabinet is usmping the func my rights in doing that, and so would any tions of Parliament, and to prove his conten other fair-minded, honourable member who had tion he was making use of certain illustra been in this Chamber long enough to under tions. '.Ve have no opportunity of discussing stand. Why, on 11 October, 1938, the hon. procedure because under this vote we· have member for Port Curtis, in discussing the been precluded from bringing up such points. ~ame vote, referred to irrigation and to all I think your ruling is wrong and it should manner of things, and he was not ruled out not be upheld by the Committee. of order. He was simply pointing out that Parliament was a splendid institution, because Mr. YEATES (East Toowoomba) (12.17 it was able to do these things for the people. p.m.) : I, too, think that in this case your On the other hand, I was trying to point out ruling i5 wrong. Under the heading of that to-day we were being ruled in an auto "'Executive and Legislative" I firmly believe cratic manner, and I am sure, Mr. King, that you should allow a very wide sphere for that if you gave the matter more mature discussion. I noticed, too, on Tuesday that consideration, you would conclude that you yom ruling-- ·were wrong. On this vote hon. members should be given the widest possible latitude The CHAIRMAN: I ask the hon. mem in debate, so long as they did not actually ber to confine himself to the ruling given discuss the projects that the Government to-day. propo&e to carry out. lUr. YEATES: This vote deals with .Executive and Legislative and does not de::l The Premier: It has been staged. with any particular department, and so I :ilir. NIMll'IO: I am sorry to hear the think you should allow a wide discussion. I PrPmier make that remark. It has not been support the motion. staged at all. For a long time I have con sidered the futility of our being in Parlia The CHAIRJUAN: Before I put the ment at all, becnuse we are not allowed to question I must say that I base my ruling discuss certain matters. Often I am asked on the fact that the St. Lucia bridge, as it by people in the street, ''What is so-and-so has been discussed by the hon. member for doing~ I see that the Premier has announced Oxley, is provided for in th~ Loan Fnn,d that such a work is going to be done,'' and Estimates. I also base my ruhng on May s I often have to say, "I know nothing about Parliamentary Practice, which states on page it, because Parliament has not discussed it.'' 538- Surely, Mr. King, I can mention those mat ,' The administrative action of a depart ters on this Yote! We are asked to provide ment is open to debate, but the necessity £31,240 of the people's money for the main for legislation and matters involving legis tenance o_f _our parliamentary institution, and lation cannot be discussed in Committee I was stnvmg to show that the money should not be voted if the privileges of Parliament of Supply.'' were going to be whittled down in the way Mr. NIMli'W (Oxley) (12.18 p.m.): I was in which they have been. I ask every hon. discussing the vote for the Legislative member to record his vote on the motion to Assembly, whereby we are asked to pass an disagree with your ruling in accordance with appropriation of £31,240 to provide for the h_is conscience. and not along strict party expenses of this Chamber. This Parliament hnes. I ask hrm to vote so that justice may is the authority or should be the authority ~e ~one 1 and to bear ~n mind that eventually to carry out the whole of the works in this JUStice rs the only thmg that will prevail. State. Without this Parliament the Premier and his office would not exist-there would be lUr. DEACON (Cunningham) (12.23 no Ministers and no Premier. In OTder to p.m.): Surely, on this vote, we have the right provide for this Parliament we are asked to discuss the mistakes Parliament may have to vote the appropriation of £31,240. By made or that Parliament may make in the way of illustration-and illustration only future. Can we not refer to the mistakes I was using the St. Lucia bridge to show that may be made this session g If we cannot that Parliament was being ignored. I think refer to our own actions as a Legislative you must be satisfied in your own mind, Assembly, to what >ve have done in the past Mr. King, that I was only using that bridge and to what we might do in the future, then as an illustration. I was not criticising the we are losing our rights as the parliamentary building of that bridge nor the building of representatives in this State. On this vote the University at St. Lucia. we should have the right to discuss anything Mr. McLean: Yes, you were. that the Legislative Assembly may have done or may do. Any hon. member should have Mr. NIMMO: I was doing nothing of the the right to point out to any other hon. mem sort. I was not criticising the actions of the ber the consequence of any mistakes we may Government. All I was criticising was the make or may have made. I am sorry to have method-- to disagree with your ruling, Mr. King, but Mr. JlicLean: And the cost. I think you are wrong in curtailing debate, which your ruling would undoubtedly mean. Mr. NIMMO: I was only referring to the It would be a misfortune for members of method of doing these things by pointing out this Parliament. - Supply. [10 Oc~oBER.] Supply. 633 Question-That the Chairman's ruling be IUr. McLEAN: Never mind about the disagreed to (Mr. Maher 's motion)-put; and system. The fact is that the hon. gentleman the Committee divided:- made a statement that Ministers were apathe tic and neglected their duties to this Parlia AYES, 16. ment. That is not true. Mr. Brand Mr. Nimmo Hon. members opposite have referred to Clayton Plunkett Dart Russell Cabinet as an autocracy. The prerogative of Deacon Walker the Cabinet is to conduct the business of the Edwards Yeates State in the interests of the people of the Maher Massey Tellers: State, and that is what the Cabinet are doing. , Moore Macdonald In the past, the purchase of the abattoirs was Nicklin Muller not referred to Parliament. NOES, 32. ~Ir. I\Ial1er: Of course, it was Mr. Bedford Mr. Hislop Brassington Jesson Mr. McLEAN: Of course, it was not. Brown, J. I. Jones Bruce M ann 1\Ir. Maher: There was a special Bill. Bulcock M cLean ~Ir. M cLEAN: Show me where it was Collin£ O'Keefe Conroy Power referred to this Parliament. Cooper Riordan Copley Smith Mr. Maher: There was a special Bill. Duggan Taylor Dunstan Walsh Mr. M cLEAN: The purchase of the Foley , Williams, H. Babinda mill was not referred to this Parlia Gair Williams, T. L. ment, nor was the question of the cotton Gledson ginnery. Hanlon Tellers: Ha yes Hi!ton Mr. I\Iaher: Of course, it was Healy Marriott JUr. M cLEAN: Of course, it was not. PAIR. I have no grievance against the Moore AYE. No. Cabinet because they did those things. They Dr. Watson Brown Mr. Larcombe were charged with the responsibility of Resolved in the negative. goYernment at the time. Tl1e CHAIR]}IAN: The hon. member for Mr. lUAHER: I rise to a point of order. Oxley has a further five minutes to discuss I do not think the hon. member has a license this vote. to say these things. A special Bill was brought into this Parliament by the Moore 1\Ir. Nll\UIO (Oxley) (12.30 p.m.): I Government to acquire Swift's meatworks for would like you to state that again. I thought the purpose of an abattoir. I personally you told me to sit down. voted for it. The CHAIRlUAN: The hon. member has Tlie Preru:ier: It was to ratify an agree a further five minutes if he wishes to speak. ment previously made. He has not exhausted that period. The CHAIRUAN: Order! The hon. 1\Ir, Nil\IlUO : Bearing in mind the ruling member for Bundaberg will have to accept you have given, I am afraid it is almost the assurance of the Leader of the Opposition impossible to discuss under this item any of on that point. the matters that are of vital importance to I\Ir, JUcLEAN: I will, on the question Queensland. \V e are passing an amount of of the purchase. The agreement was arranged £30,000 to £40,000 of the people's money and without any recognition by Parliament and instead of doing it in an ordinary demo~ratic a great deal of money was involved. A rati way, we are allowing the functions of this fication Bill was then introduced into Parlia Parliament to be usurped by certain indivi duals in the House. With those remarks I ment. ·will not discuss the matter further. ' :ilir. I\Ialler: That is all I ask, that Parliament should have the final say. lUr. liicLEAN (Bundaberg) (12.32 p.m.): During the discnssion on this vote, a state 1\Ir, M cLEAN: The arrangements that ment has been made about the absence of involved the expenditure of this money had Ministers from the front bench. If the been made without any recognition by Parlia position was not made clear, people might be ment at all. led to think that the Ministers were apathetic 1\'l:r, You are begging the ques and neglectful of their duties in Parliament. Russell: That is not so, and no-one knows that better tion. than the Lender of the Opposition. The hon. Mr. M cLEAN: I am not. The hon. mem gentleman knows that Ministers are often ber for Oxley has stated that the temper of occupied in receiving deputations from hon the people would be infiamed. Who is the members opposite, as well as from hon. mem cause of this~ None other than the Opposi bers on the Government side, and while they tion. They have been described as ''Sour are thus occupied they must be absent from bellies.'' the front benches. The CHAIRMAN: Order! I ask the Mr. Malwr: It was the system I objected hon. member to connect his remarks with the to. vote under discussion. 634 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply. Mr. llicLEAN: I am dealing with the hope that during this session in particular charge of whittling away the rights of Parlia and I think it is the desire of all hon. mem ment. An attempt has been made to decry bers that it should not be made a long and Parliament and to belittle it for an obvious tedious one-we shall be able to discuss the reason. This is being done by many persons Estimates that are most important to this who are supporters of the Opposition, and in country at this stage. If we can do that I support of my contention allow me to quote think we shall be doing something for the an extract from the Brisbane ''Telegraph'' betterment of the people of Queensland. of 19 September- I think you will agree with me, Mr. King, " Employers Urged to Get Together. that no hon. member of this Committee has any desire to lower the prestige of Parlia ''A suggestion that all employers' ment, that we all desire to raise it to the organisations should get together in the highest possible level. \V e do not take the common cause, and for the welfare of both statement made by the hon member for themselves and employees, was made to-day Bundaberg a few minutes ago on this point by the president of the Queensland very seriously. I say that we. ha-;e alwa.ys Employers' Federation (Mr. J ames been willing to anange our duties m Parlr,a McCann) at the annual meeting. If ment in such a way as to benefit our peop10. employees could deal with employers through one channel it could give employers I submit that it would he of untold benefit a greater knowledge of the desires and if the :Ministers were allowed to submit their phychology of employees.'' Trust and Special Fund Estimates ·with the Chief Office Estimates. Tl1e CHAIRMAN: Order! That is not relevant to the debate. Mr. YEATES (East Toowoomba) (12.43 Mr. M cLEAN: H is. p.m.): I feel that we are not wasting time in speaking for .~5 minutes to a vote such The CHAIRlliAN: I do not want to inter as this in which an amount of more than fere with the hon. member in any way, but is £30 000 is involved. Upon looking up the it likely to become relevant to the debate? file; of the ''Port Denison 'l'imes,'' of Bowen my native town, I read some articles Mr. llicLEAN: I have not concluded. Allow me to conclude- writte~ by my father in the early .days •l'l;en this Parliament House >vas bemg bmlt. " Mr. W. Harris said it would be a splen Those articles are now in the strong room did thing if the various employers' organi of the Bank of Australa•,ia at Bowen. In sations joined up with the federation so them he pointed out that this .Parliament that it could approach the Government of House would have been better hmlt at Glad they day representing practically all stone or Bowen, at Gladstone in particula.r. employers instead of a small section.'' because of the wonderful natural harbour m The inference is that they are endeavouring a central position in the State. to get a plutocracy to defeat governmental I should like to dmw the attention of. the control in the State. That is the interpreta Committee to the words my esteemed fnend, tion that I give to that extract. Statements the hon. member for Toowoomba, used last as to short sessions of Parliament, and Parlia year ,,-]len he clrew attention to the fact that ment's being subject to a dictatorship, an so much government \Vas being done by regu autocracy, and the like, have come from hon. lation. members opposite. They are made for the He said that the private member had deliberate purpose of endeavouring to destroy virtually no say in the business of Parlia the prestige of Parliament. ment at all. I commend him for it. I hope The Premier has never put himself above he has not met trouble from the Premier for the rank-and-file members of the party. He saying it-the trouble that possibly some has conferred with us on every matter. He hon. members on the other side have had at has always .il_ealt with us fairly and justly, and different times for expressing their opinion. no hon. member on this side of the Chamber When the vote was taken a little while ago has any grievance against the hon. genticman. -I hope you are not going to deal with me I give a denial to any statement that the as you did on Tuesday last-I fully ex_Pected, rank-and-file members of our party are being believing this to 'be an honest Parliament, subjected to autocratic control or that it has that the voting would be about equal, lJut been adopted in this Parliament. no there was the same old over-zealous pa~·ty-ism that has existed ever since I Mr. BRAND (Isis) (12.40 p.m.): The entered the Chamber. If that is to last submissions put forward by the Leader of indefinitely, our progress will be very slow. the Opposition and the replies given by the Premier this morning are important. They You know perfectly well, Mr. King, that ce_r indicate that it might be possible to alter tain people in all parts of the State and, m the proc·edure that has been adopted in thi& fact throughout Australia, from Broome to Parliament for so many years when discuss Twe~d Heads, are talking about the abolition ing the Estimates of various department8. of State Parliaments. I have not come to a Undoubtedly, it would be a considerable conclusion as to whether they are necessary or improvement if a Minister, in submitting the not. It will take time for me to make a Estimates for his department, moved first the decision on such a point. I am trying to vote for his Chief Office, and then submitted come to an unbiased decision; it might take his Trust and Special Fund Estimates. I a year. I have taken the matter up with the Supply. [10 OcTOBER.] Supply. 635 Government Statistician, Mr. Colin Clark, and for the salaries of hon. members, and about I am trying to get all the information I £10,000 for contingencies, including the cost can so that I may study it in my spare of the Agent-General's office. We cannot time-from 4 a.m. to 7 a.m. When I am decide whether State Parliaments are neces ready I shall speak. In the meantime State sary without grave consideration, although Parliaments will carry on as they are; it I know that the irresponsible man at the will probably take some 10 to 15 years to corner of George and Queen streets believes abolish them. I have an open mind on the they are not necessary. I am not going to subject; I merely want what is good for come to any hasty conclusion; in the mean Australia and Queensland. time, let us do the best we can under our present system. In the meantime, the dignity of this Parliament must be kept up. A Government Member: You do not listen to the man in the street~ Mr. Jones: You were put out last session. ]}Ir. YEATES: Under our democratic Mr. YEATES: I suppose I was. I blame system, the man in the street has as much the present Chairman for last session's say in the political affairs of the country as troubles. vV e pass on. In the :first session the man who ploughs 100 acres of land. The I frankly admit that I went out on a question hon. member has to listen to the man in the of principle-you see, I still stick to my street, but perhaps some day our people, principles. the manual labourer, too, will become more lUr. Bedford interjected. enterprising and thus be entitled to a greater voice in the political affairs of the country lUr. YEATES: Never mind about the than the man who merely lolls about the street hon. member for Warrego. corners, waiting for the chance to pitch a good The CHAIRMAN: Order! I should like tale in the hope of getting a free beer and to hear the hon. member. counter-lunch. lUr. YEATES: I hope the Premier is The sum of £7,379 is provided on the taking this in. It is marvellous how the Estimates for railway passes to members and Chairman takes the advice of, well, perhaps ex-members of Parliament and their relatives. the Premier, sometimes. I believe that to a Is that amount paid to the various States, or certain extent there is-I will not say a is it just a bookkeeping entry in accordance ''dictatorship,'' because there might be ~with some anangement for the exchange of trouble-an autocracy. I do not want to passes9 exaggerate. I listened to the Premier this The cost of the Parliamentary Library is morning. It is hard at times to disbelieve £1,156, or £23 a week. There is no question what he says. He puts it to you in such a that it is a good library. I am wondering frank and what seems to be a nice way that you feel you should believe him. You know, how many of the 62 members of this Assembly :M:r. King-and I do not think he will mind use it. Sometimes I should be pleased to my saying this; I say it respectfully-it have a week off, to sit on the veranda and takes an old dog for a hard road. He knows uso it. I am sony that I do not use it every move in the game of politics, and he as much as I should like. also knows how the State should be managed, The Premier: I shall be pleased to move but he cannot aspire to reach the heights of that you be granted leave of absence from a great leader because, unfortunately, he is too much a party man. now to the end of the year, provided you read one book a week. (Laughter.) There is too much government by regula tion in this State. I know that most Govern Mr. YEATES: That would be possible ments follow that practice. It is necessary provided the Estimates of the Railway Depart in time of war for the Federal Government ment are not brought on. (Laughter.) to adopt that course, tut it is carried to I do not believe in so many wartime excuses excess in Queensland. I am :firmly of the as 1ve hear nowadays. I said, when spfaking opinion that all projects involving the on the Address in Reply, that with proper expenditure of public funds should be con organisation and every man and woman in sidered by Parliament. I listened intently to thc,ir allotted plare, we should be able to go what the Premier had to say on the point, full steam ahead with virtually no interference but I am still of the opinion that many with our wartime effort. vV e could encourage matters are pushed through by regulation private industries and possibly relieve them and on the authority of the Governor in of a certain amount of taxation. I say, ''Go Council. That is not a satisfactory state of ri;:,ht ahead 1vith Parliament and its func affairs, because it leads to a :filching a>vay tions, at the same time doing everything of the rights of Parliament and of hon. possible for our wartime effort. '' Do not members. Hon. members are not given let ns make excuses because of the war and enough say in the government of the country, sny that because of it we cannot do this or and in that respect I agree with the hon. that. Let us have no rush of legislation. I member for Toowoomba. I sincerely hope strongly urge the Premier to give us plenty of that he has not changed his opinion because of time to digest the new Bills that will be a caucus meeting or for any other reason. introduced. I heard a little whisper through The parliamentary institution is costing one of our newspapers, that an E•lections Bi!l about £80,000 a year, being about £31,000 is to be introduced. Will the Premier permit for the Legislative Assembly itself, £33,000 us to see an advance copy of that measureW 636 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply. Tile CHAIRMAN: Order! The hon. be adopted. Hon. members, particularly those member cannot discuss prospective legislation. on the Opposition benches, should have greater time given to them to study the proposed Mr. YEATES: I have calculated the legislation than has been allowed in the past. cost of Parliament at about ls. 6;\d. a head of the population in the State. I think some I called the attention of the Government accountants haYe worked it out at 2s. or to this fact when a Bill containing a 2s. 2d. principle new to common law was ?e.ing pnt through. I am still of the same opmwn, I have come to the conclusion that there but whether I am right or wrong does n?t need be no hurry about abolishing the State alter the attitude that I have taken up m Parliament for a year or two. It is essential regard to all Bills in which importa~t to deal with the war and other matters first. principles ::LTe involved. vVe have a splendid I suggest that thoughtful people go into the example set by New Zealand. I~portant matter with an unbiased mind. I know ~he measures arc there referred to standmg com critics of Parliament. I travel on our trains mittees, so that they can be t~oTOughly -second-class sometimes, because there is no thrashed ont before thcv are considered by third-and in K.B. wagons-and sometimes Parliament. It is not thrlt I claim any privi if time permits I listen at the street corner lege for the Opposition to interfer~ '':ith t~e and I hear the talk of irresponsible critics. policy of the Government .or the. prmciples m There are also critics of this Parliament on which hon. members opposite beheve, but such the newspapers amongst journalists and action would certainly improve much of the editors. 'l'here are also critics of Parliament legislation that is put through this Chamber in business. J\f y advice to these critics-irre in too hurried a fashion. spective of who they are-is that they try to raise the dignity of Parliament. I always The mooern trend in all Parliaments is for took up that attitude when I was chairman the Cabinet to usurp the functions ~ml J?ri':i of a chamber of commerce all(} other semi legcs of Parliament gradually. It IS smd m public bodies before I became a member of extenuation of that tendency that because this Assembly. Parliament is a reflection of parliamentary government has become an the people, and if there is any ground for involved affair owing to the enormo~s exten complaint the fault lies with them. I invite sion of the functions of the State which often Parliament to pass a Bill to provide for com require specialised knowledge, it is imJ?ossible pulsory preferential voting, similar to that in for Cabinet Ministers to devote time to operation in the Federal sphere. acquainting themselves thoroughly with much of the legislation that affects the new func Tile CHAIRMAN: Order! The hon. tions of the State, and consequently the member cannot discuss prospective legis administration particularly and legis:a~ion, lation. too, is prompted by an army of specialists. 1\Ir. YEATES: The electors themselves The Government put through measures that are to blame if there is any ground for com have been adopted by Gcbinet in co~sultation plaint. I con1ially invite critics of Parlia with caucus and Parliament to-day 1s becom ment to contest seats at the next election; ing simply ; recording body for the decis.ions they can start >Vith me. of the Cabinet "·ho, in turn, have been gmded bv decbions of caucus. Usually the influence I do not ~wish to take up my full time of Cabinet would have an over-powering because later on possibly the Premier will effect on caucus. vVe have to admit that it be blaming us for speaking on eYery vote, is impossible for Cabinet Ministers to make and he may cut out the votes for the Depart themselws au fait with every detail of their ment of Public Lands, the Department of departments, and therefore I think that Par Agriculture and Stock, the Department of liament should be consulted more than it has Mines, and the Department of Justice. in the past. If some system was adopted Tile CHAIRMAN: Order! whereby important measures were referred to committees of the House-- Mr. RUSSELL (Hamilton) (2.19 p.m.): The Premier: You voted against that In Queensland we have the unicameral system when I mm·ecl it during the time of the as against the bicameral system that obtains Moore Government. in other States, consequently the sole respon sibility for discharging the legislative and lUr. RUSSELL: The Premier never executive functions of Parliament devolve moved it. I want to restore to the House upon one House; therefore, it is necessary many of the privileges that have been dis that we should exercise the greatest caution turbed by Cabinet. 'rhis is the modern trend, and circumspection in considering Bills that not only in this Parliament, but in all the come before us. Parliaments of Australia, and even in the Mother o:i Parliaments itself. There is a tendency for the Government of the day to rush legislation through unduly, It cannot be expected that every elector although this session is somewhat of an excep will have a voice in the framing of the legis tion to the rule. In previous sessions very lation that affects him. In theory, he has important Bills have been rushed through in the that voice by appointing certain representa dying hours of the session, and hon. members tives to a deliberative Assembly such as this on this side did not have time to digest them. to speak on his behalf. Under the modern In consequence, many Acts have to be trend, the voice of an Opposition is like a amended from time to time. The time has lone voice crying in the wilderness. It makes arrived when some different procedure should one think that probably it would be more Supply. [10 OCTOBER.] Supply. 637 prudent if every political party were repre are a body of reasonable men, and I do sented in this Parliament according to its not think they could be accused of being voting strength in the constituencies. I do guilty of malevolence by those occupying not think the minorities get a fair deal in the Treasury benches to-day. any Parliament. I think they are entitled to adequate representation. That system obtains I know that this is an era of machine in Tasmania. There they have a system of politics. We have departed from the old proportional representation, which ensures idea of democratic government. It does not adequate repre9entation to the minority. matter what the Government do because their party will stand to them, be their actions No reasonable Government desire to right or wrong. Whether that is the right govern by brute strength or to force their principle or not I am not prepared to argue. opinions on a weak Opposition. After all, That system of government has been due to we are imbued with the same ideals as they the advent of machine politics into Australia are and have the same objective as they have and other countries. For all that, we are -the welfare of the community-and our desirous of preserving the ideal of parlia op1;nons, although they may be opposed to mentary government. It is a system that t~eus, are worthy of the greatest considera is peculiar to-day to the English-speaking ~wn. Actually, the opinion of the Opposition peoples because that on0 great democracy IS gcncraiiy scorned, and it is very rarely believing in parliamentary government indeed that any Bill that is brought down France-has gone under. Indeed we have to this Parliament has merged into it any viTtually derived our system of parliamentary reasonable amendments put forward bv the government from that great democratic Opposition. If the Government claim "to be country and to-day the whole of the English a representative party, they should be willing speaking nations are governed by that to accept reasonable amendments from the system. It was tried elsewhCl'e on the Conti Opposition, although I do not want it to be nent but did not suit the peculiar temperrr taken that we desire in any way to destroy mcnt of the European races. Under pm·lia their policy or their beliefs. Whether a mentary government, the German Republic cystem of proportional representation would went to pieces in the deprc9sion because t lw give us a more stable House, it is hard to politician was not strong enough to stantl say, but I think it is worthy of trial. I up to external presstue. We should be ear~ should ~ike t_o see every poli.tical party repre ful to preserve the high ideals of democmt1c sented m tins House accordmg to its numeri institutions and parliamentary government. cal strength in the country. If that was so, the p_:escnt party in office, who represent less JUr. Dunstan interjected. than ciO per cent. of the people of Queensland lUr. RUSSELL: I am keeping strictly >vould not be sitting on the Treasury benche~ to the vote under discus9ion. '..V e are jealous of this State to-day. of the continuance of parliamentary institu lUr. l'iicLean: Nor would the Menzies tions. I want to restore to the Legislative Government be in power in the Federal Assembly many of the privileges ~enied to sphere. hon. members owing to the changmg order of things in parliamentary government. lUr. RUSSELL: The Menzies Government There was a dispute this morning in the have a working majority in the Federal Committee as to whether certain remarks Senate. At the last State election the Labour were in order. I rrrised the point myself Party polled less than 50 per cent. of the some years ago that Parliament. must have total votes in the contested electorates. I control of the public purse. It IS a wrong merely mention that by way of illustration procedure to commit the country to lar.ge in my advocacy for a different system of expenc1itures without the consent of Parha representation, so that the rights of minorities ment. >vill be better protected than they are to-day. JUr. JUaher: Hear, hear! I should like to take the Premier to task for some of his remarks. I take strong Mr. RUSSELL: Several instances have exception to what he has said. He said that been given, but I think the most notable was the criticism of the Opposition on the Address that of the Story Bridge. I dealt with this in Reply displayed malevolence. That is a matter some years ago, when I contended wrong statement to make. When it comes to and I still believe in my contention-that a question of malevolence, there is no man in where the State is committed to a huge this Parliament >Yho has exhibited more male expenditure, a spec-ial Bill should be brought volence than the Premier himself on various before the Hou,e. occasions. He has a very bitter tongue, both inside and outside the House, and I contend The Premier: It was in the case of the that in our criticism of the Financial State Story Bridge. ment om remarks did not exhibit the slightest Mr. RUSSELL: No Bill was brought into sign of malevolence. \Ve were stating our this House. case, and we took strong exception to the attitude taken up by the Labour Party during The Premier: Of course tb.ere was the recent Federal election campaign, and Show me th@ Bill. this was the place to express our views. JUr. RUSSELL: To say that our remarks are tinged with The CHAIRMAN: Order! malevolence is not to the point. I think that Mr. RUSSELL: Oh yes, quite right-the in the main the members of the Opposition Bureau of Industry Bill. There it was 638 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply. mentioned. I contend that in the build to their desires. The opportunity to do so ing of the Story Bridge the same is not always made available to us in this procedure should have been adopted as is Parliament. For instance, we meet for about pursued in regard to the building of rail three months in the year, and do not sit ways. When new railways are to be built, every day in the week even for those three special Bills are brought before the House months, and the business is submitted to us giving the plans and specifications and the in such a manner that we are not given an estimates of cost. The same principle should adequate opportunity to express the opinions apply to every great undertaking. I have of the people upon it. If we believe in no desire to hamper the Government in the democracy we should be willing to give every carrying out of their ordinary functions. hon. member an opportunity and adequate They have certain votes for the building of time to consider all the business submitted certain buildings, but when it comes to the to us for our consideration and determination. question of committing this State to the We do not have sufficient time to represent expenditure of vast sums of public money, I contend that the consent of Parliament the people as they expect us to represent them. should first be obtained. Parliament should In consequence, there is a growing feeling be consulted, whether the Government have among the people that Parliament as consti agreed to go on with the projects or not. tuted to-day is very autocratic and is beco;n I could cite many instances in which the ing a star chamber. Members of Parlia ment are not able to protest against any authority of Parliament has been flouted. Parliament is responsible for the raising of regulations issued in the recess until t!10~e the money for all these projects, and it regulations have the force of la':~', and 1~ IS too late. It is true that they m due trme should be consulted. have an opportunity of making representa Another trend in modern times, and on<3 tions with regard to them in the interests of that is creating a distressing position in this the people. The Government, or the Forgan country, which we claim to be one of the Smith Government, as it is known, appears most democratic in the world, is that there to exercise so much authority in this Parlia seems to be a disregard for law and order. ment that one would almost think that the We pass laws in this country, and we people's representatives sitting in opposition deliberately flout them. In many cases, little were beneath them, and had not the right. or or no action is taken to bring offenders to privilege to express themselves as they thmk justice. I refer now particularly to the indus fit. It is unbecoming of the Leader of the trial laws. Parliament is the supreme Government to exercise authority as he some authority, and it should see that the laws are times does. If he cannot get his own ~ay carried out in toto, and that those who in one way he will get it in another by makmg offend must not be allowed to think that uncalled for remarks to belittle hon. members. they are beyond the pale of the law. I I have only to refer to the remarks of the have no desire to enter into the merits or Premier this morning in which he alluded to demerits of arbitration, but there is a laxity me as a man without brains. He may think in Labour administration, in its hesitancy himself to be a Greek philosopher. to take the guilty people to task. The CHAIRMAN: Order! Although the The CHAIRMAN: Order! The subject the hon. member may think it wise to make of arbitration may be discussed on the vote such strictures, I ask him to get back to the for the Department of Labour and Industry, and the hon. member will have an oppor vote. tunity of discussing it on that vote. Mr. DART: The Leader of the Govern Mr. RUSSELL: I am not going to discuss ment this morning charged the Opposition the subject of arbitration, but I am discus5- with having rigged this debate. Nothing was ing the authority of Parliament and con rigged. We are here to discuss the votes that tending that it should be upheld in every come before this Chamber on the Estimates. direction, not only in regard to arbitration The Government last week put through a but also in regard to many other matters. motion that relegated private members' busi My whole object in raising these points is ness to the background. We want the privi to urge that the authority of Parliament lege to act as the people's representatives in must be restored, that the power of the this Parliament in accorC!ance wi:th the Con Cabinet must be decreased, and that the stitution. We have not been given by the usurpation of the powers of Parliament that Government our full opportunity of represent has been going on for so many years must ing the people who returned us to Parliament be diminished. I want every hon. member of in the manner we think best. In consequence Parliament to do his duty by his constituents. the public are now beginning to say that They are appointed by their constituents, Parliament can be done away with because to express the views of the electorates, but their wishes are not represented here as they to-day private members are virtually sub should be. We should come here as represen merged by the overwhelming majority on tatives of the people, and party politics should the other side of the Chamber, and that is not obtrude into the transaction of business. purely a travesty on our parliamentary insti We should assemble for the purpose of con tution. sidering all matters that come before us from the point of view of what is in the best Mr. DART (Wynnum) (2.38 p.m.): It is interests of the people. 1VI uch of the business our duty to agree to, this vote, but we should that should be done by Parliament is done also remember that we are here as the repre in the recess by the issue of regulations by sentatives of the people to give expression the Executive Council. We have no say in Supply. [10 OCTOBER.] Supply. 639 that. Certainly they are tabled at the begin Mr. DART: This legislation was passed ning of each session, but so much time has 12 months ago. Before that legislation was elapsed since their issue that we have no passed the building of such a bridge would opportunity of amending them. have been decided upon by the Lord Mayor The Premier: Do you know all regula and the council, but to-day the decision lies tions have to be tabled in Parliament within with the Co-ordinator-General. 14 days of the assembling of the Housef I maintain the Government are not work ing in the best interests of the welfare of Mr. DART: Parliament is not in session when most of them are issued, and conse the people or along the democratic lines that quently cannot have access to them. they should follow. We are a democratic Parliament returned on a democratic fmnchise Tile Premier: Do you not get the and there should not be any passing over of Government ''Gazette'' f responsibility from Parliament to other people. JUr. DART: That is a reason why Parlia ment should meet oftener. The Brisbane City After the vote is passed-! take it that Council assembles once a week to discuss it will be-l hope the Government will give matters pertaining to its area of 385 square due consideration to this important matter. miles. Surely we can meet oftener than for The sooner the Executive Council reverts to one period of three months in a year to discuss a democratic method of dealing with these business relating to the whole of Queensland! matters the more pleased the people of We should take the opportunity on this vote Queensland will be. of airing onr grievances so that those in power can mend their ways and make provi The PREl'iiiER (Hon. W. Forgan Smith, sion for a more frequent consultation with Mackay) (2.49 p.m.): The hon. members who the representatives of the people. have been carrying on this debate for some time have entirely erroneous conceptions of Thir. lUaher: Do you know that the Government amended the Sugar Experiment the vote now before the Chair and of the Stations Act by Order in Council, not by an functions of this Parliament, or they are amending Bill f misrepresenting the position altogether. l\Ir. DART: I could refer to many such The Leader of the United Australia Party, Acts, but I do not intend to dwell on them. the hon. mem]:ler for Hamilton, said that no Parliament does uot meet as often as the parliamentary authority was granted for the people who select us would like us to meet. building of the Story Bridge. Let me give the facts about that. A franchise was Tl1e CHAIRl\IAN: Order! The hon. granted under the Tolls on Privately Con member is indulging in unnecessary repeti tion. structed Road Traffic Facilities Act to the Bureau of Industry, and that was an Act lUr. DART: The Executive Council is in passed by the Moore Government. Under the habit of passing many of its responsi that Act a franchise was given to the Bureau bilities to the Bureau of Industry or the of Industry. It was proposed by the Moore Co-ordinator-General. Last year we passed Government, all the papers were ready to a Bill giving the Co-ordinator-General so much po>ver that an alderman of the give that franchise to a private company. Brisbane City Council approached me on this \V e disapproved of that course and gave it business-- to the Bureau of Industry, but before any money was expended on the building of the The CHAIRlllAN: Order! The hon. bridge ·and before the contracts were made member cannot discuss legislation or the or construction was proceeded with a special need for legislation under this vote. Bill was put through Parliament entitled ''A Bill to amend the Industries Assistance Act Mr. DART: I am talking about the and the Bureau of Industry Act in certain Parliament-- particulars, and for other purposes.'' It gave The CHAIRMAN: Order! I know what statutory authority for the building of that the hon. member is talking about. On this bridge, but we iind men who claim to be v;:>te the hon. member cannot discuss legisla leaders in Parliament and the leader of tion that has been passed or legislation to be the remnant of a once great party standing brought in. in this Chamber and saying there is no statutory authority for these things. JUr. DART: The Co-ordinator-General has such sweeping powers that if one wants The hon. member also said that it would to iind out if a bridge is to be built one be a splendid thing if Parliament was called has to consult him instead of the council in upon to do more work. Of course, he is whose area it is. I had that experience in probably speaking for himself there. What the Greater Brisbane area only yesterday he had in mind was that Bills of an when I was asked by an alderman to make important character should be referred to an appointment with the Co-ordinator Standing Committees, but he himself voted General in order to learn if he would give against that principle on at least two his consent to the building of a certain occasions. On the Companies Bill, which the bridge. Moore Government put through, the most extensive Bill of its kind ever passed in this The Premier: Did not Parliament pass Parliament and a splendid Act were it not that legislation~ for the defects that arise in connection with 640 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply. interstate companies, I proposed that the passage of the last Bill I handled, the Leader Bill be referred to a Select Committee. of the Opposition withdrew an amendment immediately I explained the meaning of his Mr. Russell: That is an individual case. own amendment. I am speaking of general principle. Mr. MAHER: That shows my reason The PREMIER: The hon. member always ableness. has an excuse. The hon. member said that he did not vote against this principle and I Tile PREMIER: H shows the help that am proving that he did. In the debate on I was giving the hon. gentleman, but there is the Companies Bill, which was a non-party a point beyond which that cannot go. measure, the Opposition of which I was the Mr. NIMMO (Oxley) (3.2 p.m.): Mr. leader supported the Bill. I moved that a Select Committee of Parliament be appointed King-- to bring in a report dealing with that Bill Mr. CHAIRMAN: Order! The hon. and we find that the hon. member for member for Oxley has exhausted his 25 Hamilton amongst others voted against that minutes. motion. The House divided, the result being Ayes 22-Noes 36. Vote (Legislative Assembly) agreed to. Another Bill on which I moved for the appointment of a Select Committee was the PREMIER AND CHIEF SECRETARY'S Industries Assistance Bill. The hon. member DEPARTMENT. again opposed that a Select Committee be appointed. But more important still, in CHIEF OFFICE. regard to railway superannuation, which has The PREMIER (Hon. W. Forgan Smith, now cost the State in the vicinity of £585,000, Mackay): I move- I moved that a Select Committee of the " That £14 066 be granted for 'Premier House be appointed with power to call in and Chief 's Department-Chief an actuary to advise on the actuarial basis S~cretary of the proposed scheme. The hon. member Office.''' voted against that motion and the then Mr. YEATES (East Toowoomba) (3.3 Government undertook an obligation of £100 p.m.) : First of all, I do not begrudge any for a security of £40. That was the Premier approximately £1,450 a year. I actuarial basis of their scheme. It had to should be inclined to make it something like be ended immediately. On three important £1,550, or ev:en £1,600, not only for the occasions on which the hon. member had the present Premier, but anyone who takes a opportunity of doing something that he now proper interest in his work. advocates he voted against it. I am not quite satisfied about the sum of Mr. RusseH: I am speaking of Standing £570 for the State Publicity Officer. I Committees. should like the Premier to explain what his duties are and what we aTe getting for that The PREMIER: That indicates the extent to which we can regard his references expenditure. to procedure in Parliament. There is a I believe that the expenditure of approxi provision in the Standing Orders for the mately £10,000 a year for. the Agent-General appointment of Standing Committees. is money well spent, espec1ally when we have Then it is suggested by the last speaker a man such as the present Agent-General in that Bills are passed without giving hon. chaTge of affairs, but I should l'ike the members an opportunity to speak. During Premier to see to it that the Agent-General their term of office the Moore Government visits Queensland at regulaT intervals. Of applied the closure 24 times in 1929, 30 times course, I mean during peace times. He should in 1930, and 19 times in 1931. I have not visit here, say, once in every two or three moved the closure at all this year. Last year years. I moved it only twire, and in 1937 only once. Tile Premier: He was here less than Over the whole period that this Government three yeaTs ago. have been in power-eight years-the closure has been moved only 33 times as against 73 lUr. YEATES: That is so, but I want times during the Moore Government's three him to keep on coming here. Never mind sessions of office. about a little bit of travelling expense. I believe that everyone should see things for lUr. Maher: You have a more orderly himself, so that, speaking about them, . he Opposition to contend with. The need for it may have them in his mind's eye. Mr. Pike does not. exist. is well worthy of the position. I have re~d his report, although not every word of 1~, The PREMIER: I think it is due to the and find it interesting. I realise that. his fact that we bring forward business in an orderly fashion, and the Ministers who intro work is being held up to a considerable extent on account of the war. That is not duce Bills give a fair and succinct account of the meaning of their Bills, with the result his fault. that Parliament can make up its mind rapidly I notice that the sum of £500 is provided as to whether it is for or against it. Again, as an allowance to the Co-ordinatoT-General in the Committee stage we go to great pains of Public Works. There is nothing to com to explain the meaning of clauses of Bills to plain of in that. It is an addition to his the Leader of the Opposition. During the salary of £1,500 as Commissioner of Main Supply. [10 OCTOBER.] Supply. 641 Roads. Anyone occupying such a responsible to fatten up these people for~ They had position is worth that sum of money. enough while they were in their positions.'' I definitely disagree with such nonsense. I shall I should like now to speak of some things have more to say about the matter, and about that appear to be small. If I can speak of the subject of pensions for judges, when the other departments, Mr. King, it will save me vote for the Department of Justice is under from reiterating my remarks as the vote for consideration. However, I should like to each department comes up. congratulate the Government on making the The CHAIRlUAN: Order! The hon. allowance to Sir J ames, although I should member can speak concerning the votes for have preferred to see it :fixed at £850 .. This the Chief Secretary's Department. gentleman has given years of loyal service to the State, and I sincerely hope that there lUr. YEATES: I should like the Premier was no dissension in caucus when the proposal to give orders tu every Minister to have the to give him an annual allowance was made. telephones in his department ansvYered in a It was a very worthy thing to do. proper and businesslike way, as in private enterprises. If one rings up a Government Mr. DUGGAN (Toowoomba) (3.7 p.m.): f1eprntmcnt one hears, ''Hullo'' or ''B. 7534 The Chief Secretary's Department is one of here.'' That is absurd, to my mind. I should the most important in the State, although the like to hear, in a courteous voice-a voice opinion prevails outside tlmt, apart from the ex]1ressing a smile-'' Premier's Department State Elecricity Commission and the oper~ here! ·what can I do for you T'' or ''Depart tions of the Co-oTdinator-General of Pnbhc ment of Railways here,'' and so on. I give Works this department is concemed prin credit to the Government Printing Office and cipally with meeting important persona~es the Police 1'raffic Office. Those who answer from the other States and overseas, and with the telephone at the Printing Office know how issuing letters of introduction to consuls ove~ to do it. seas. The Chief SecretaTY 's Department IS The amount to lJe appropriated for immi concernec1 primaTily with the tTade problems gration is small, and I really do not know of this State and so we realise its signi:fi whether it is worth while spending the money cance, and the impoTtant part it can play seeing that we arc doing virtually nothing in in the development of the State. the ·way of immigration. \Yhen peace comes, I read the repoTt of the ~gent-Gen~ral for as it must, let us go in for the thing on a Queensland, Mr. Pike, v;·Ith conSiderable proper scale, and bring people to Queensland inteTcst. It draws attention to our trade from the Hriti~h Tsles for preference, and problems, and to the difficulties that have other Englislt~speaking countries, to raise the aTisen in consequence -of the war. For the population in the next hvo decades to current :financial year the contracts ente:ed 2,000,000. Do not let us forget the local into between the BTitish and Austmhan increase. of which, of course, I cannot speak Governments are estimated to amount to under this vote. £120,000,000. The value of Australian exports I realise that amlJulance brigades are semi last year weTe estimated at ab.out £10l,OOO,?O?, Government sen·ices, and institutions that but, owing to the very bounb~ul seasons, It IS are partly :financed or subsidised by the expected that that :figure will be exceeded Government receive rebates on purchases from when the actual returns are in. The the State Stores Board. \V e buy motor cars 'l'reasurer has mentioned in his Budget sometimes for the ambulance brigade through that Queensland's diTect overseas expo;ts that board. I '"ant to know of the Premier last year amounted to £30,000,000, wh;ch -he did not answer my question this is 25 per cent. of the total ~ustrahan lnOrning-- oversea exports. Consequently, this depart Tlie Premier: What did I not answer? ment has a very heavy responsibility cast upon it to see that the markets . won for lUr. YEATES: Who are getting rebates Queensland over the years are retamed and, from the State Stores~ Are hon. members if possible, extended. The war has had the and Ministers allowed to buy goods from the effect of closing European markets for Aus State Stores Board at cost price? tralian exports, but the British Government have entered into contracts to bny most of our The Premier: No, a most unworthy suggestion. That members of Parliament surplus products. get rebates on purchases made by the State~ The greatest bene:ficiaTy in this country is, of course, the wool industTy. The average )Jr. YEATES: I do not want such a price paid for wool for the year ended 1938-39 rebate. I heard years ago that it could be done. The Hon. John Fihelly to Id me that it was ] O~d. a lb., but, on the outbreak of war, could be done, bnt pm·haps that was when the British Government agreed to pay 13-,( d. a lb. Australian currency,. for . all the Ryan Government were in power. 6 wool that >Ye exported overseas. This was a I heartily endorse the actl;Hl of the Govern considerable increase -on the price that pre ment in making an allowance to the former viously prevailed, but, notwithstanding ~hat Chief Justice, Sir James Blair. In fact, I fact some criticism has been directed agamst should not have complained if the annual the 'agreement between the Aust~a~i~n an.d allowance had been £1,000, although the man BTitish Governments. That cnbcism IS in the street and irresponsible persons might mainly directed to two points. The :fir~t say, as they were having a glass of beer and objection is that the Wool Control Board m a bit of counter-lunch, "What do they want London has not permitted America and other 1940-x ·642 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply. neutral countries to have the same access to the position of chairman of the Chair of our raw wool as they had before the outbreak Veterinary Science, addressed a meeting in .of war. BTisbane a few days ago. He mentioned At 3.10 p.m., many economic pToblems that would confront Australia in the future, and advised that steps Mr. DUNS'TAN (Gympie), one of the panel be taken to see that the future of the wool ·Of Temporary Chairmen, relieved the Chair market was not imperilled. Britain, being man in the chair. pTincipally a manufacturing nation, is obliged to sell her manufactured products to the Mr. DUGGAN: We agree that it is woTld. She is also obliged to rely a gTeat desirable that we should retain our wool deal on primary products from this country, markets as far as we can. The undue curtail such as wool, to be able to compete success ment of the export of raw wool to the United fully on the world's markets. Prior to the States of America and neutral countries in war the \videspread adoption of the policy my opinion, is to be deplored. If evid~nce of economic nationalism caused many of the could be produced that some of this wool was markets of the world to be denied to former being resold to the belligerent nations we exporters. AustTalia, being a small nation, could understand the anxiety of the British ,vould have been foolish if she had not made Government to see that some protection in substantial alterations in her internal that direction ·was afforded, but it would be economy. She has done so, and has been able quite impossible for any such country to to build up secondary industries. There is no transfer raw wool to belligerent nations. reason why she should not continue to do so. Once wool reached the shores of the United States of America shipph1g difficulties for I listened to a lecture a few weeks ago one thing would prevent any belligerent nation deliveTecl at Toowoomba by the British Trade from getting wool. There would therefore Commissioner. He deplored the fact that we be no danger, if some relaxation' was mad~ were expanding secondary industries in this in the export of raw wool, of its finding its countrv. He said he recommended those who way to Germany, Italy, or Japan. Japan, were l)Tesent to study agricultural problems, before becoming a member of the tripartite and urged us to devote our attention and ag7eement with the belligerent nations, com facilities to the production of primary pamcd on behalf of some of her manufactur exports. ing concerns that discrimination had been The Aeting Attorney-General: That is ~hown against her in the export of raw wool, 'llways their cry. masmuch as raw wool was not given to them in the quantity n<'eded for domestic con :illr. DUGGAN: He stated that it was sumption. desimble that Australia should remain a The second criticism levelled at this con primary-producing country. He deplored the fact that she was embarking upon these tract is that arrangements are made whereby if the British Govemment resell our wool the secondaTy industries. He also said that one of the curses of any industrial system \Yas profit on the transaction should be shared equally between the British Government and the development of slum areas. I was so the Australian producer. offended by his criticism of the policy of successive Australian Governments that 1 felt lUr. Bedford: The contract does not obliged to reply to him, and he was not veTy apply to wool cloths. The manufacturer gets pleased with what I said. a U the profits. \Ve, as a soveTeign nation, are entitled lUr. DUGGA!i': That is so. It seems to formulate our own tracle policy. VVe do ·that the agreement prescribes control for raw not-in times of c-risis such as the present wool, hut has no control over the price of -wish to embarrass the British Government, yarn and finished material. 'l'he result has but we are entitled to make Teasonable pro been that very inflated lJrices have prevailed vision foT the maTketing of our products and the manufacturer has been able to make overseas. We need to see to it that we substantial profits. Hon. members will agree pennit the normal development of secondaTy with me that it is essential that we should industries in Austmlia, \Vhich will .;;reate a retain the greatest possible market for the much improved market for the ab~orption of finished wool product. After all, it is very our primary products. difficult at any time to find new markets. We 'Can hope to compete successfully with syn It is mentioned in the Agent-General's thetic woollen mateTials only if the price of report that on 1 January, this year, a butter the woollen matATial does not rise beyond Tation was introduced in England limiting a ceTtain economic level. It behoves us, the consumption of butter to 4 ounces a week. therefore, to see that the finished woollen This Teduced consumption would be equivalent garments aTe sold at a price at which they to about 50 per cent. of the rate for the can compete with those made from synthetic two-year period preceding the outbreak of fibres. Therefore it is a matter for regret war. Since then, owing to inadequate storage 'that the British Government have not seen fac·ilities and because of the impossibility fit to exercise more rigid control over the of getting sufficient shipping :lacilities, that price of the finished woollen product. ration has been ccnsidembly Teduced. I read a few days ago that the ration had You will recollect, Mr. King, that Dr. been reduced from 4 ounces to 2 ounces. Tan Clunies R.oss, who was secretary in TheTefore there will be a 75 per cent. diminu London of the Australian Wool Secretariat, tion in the consumption of butter based on ·and who relinquished that position to accept the two-year period prior to the outbreak of Supply. [10 OCTOBER.] Supply. 643 war. A prominent Under Secretary of a interest payments in London, of approxi Government department in Great Britain, as mately £15,000,000. There is a responsibility reported by Mr. Pike, is supposed to have on the British Government to see that we said that butter was a luxury. This also have access to British markets in order that had the effect of further diminishing the we can not only make due contribution to sales of butter in the United Kingdom. the allied cause, but also meet our overseas interest commitments. Tremendous sums are spent in advertising the virtues of margarine, and because of its lUr. Russell: You have a preference. lower price, the improved quality of the product, and its greater nutritive value than :Mr. DUGGAN: We have a preference. some time ago it continues to be a serious I am drawing attention to the danger that, challenge to butter. We can look with very because of the reduced standard of living or the possibility of a reduced standard of living great apprehen"ion to the future of the butter industry in Australia unless we are in England, the wage-earners in that c~untry able to preserve our maTkets. TherefoTe, a will be compelled to accept butter substitutes, grave responsibility is cast upon the .\gent such as margarine, because of its lower cost. General to see that the British Government Britain may be obliged, and has been obliged, will Tecognise the lwa vy financial sacTifice to restrict the importation of certain exports of the AustTaliau people in the common from Australia. A ban was placed on the· cause, and see to it the agreements we have importation of certain types of beef, and entered into with the United Kinguom will there have been other curtailments. We are be preserved after the \Yar is won. willing to admit the difficulties associated with these problems, because of inadequate shipping JUr. Plunkett: Do you not think we facilities, and a]so inadequate storage space shoulll put a restriction on margarine~ here and overseas, and, co~1sequently, to take a reasonable view. "The war has had a very Mr. DUGGAN: I think it is a matter for adverse effect upon the primary industries regret that a greater amount of butter is of the world and if Great Britain is unfor not consumed in this country. 'Ne aTe living tunate enough to be the loser in this war, the in a free community and I suppose the people future of the exporting industries of Aus who make margarine, provideu they conform tralia is indeed very grave. to the prescribeu standards, are entitled to market their product. There are certain Mr. JUassey: The whole of Australia. difficulties in the way. I am in accoru with Mr. DUGGAN: Yes. The future of the· the hon. member for Albert. I believe a case exporting industries of the whol? of A~stra~a can !Je made out for the restriction of mar is very grave indeed. Th~ v1ctor n~ . th1s garine production in Australia; but we must contest will impose very strmgent cond1hons, not be nnfair and prevent those people from and, no doubt, Australia, having pledged her operating thP trade they have built up, pro nded they pay awaru rates and their indus self to the Allies, "·ill be discriminated against trial conditions are of a high standard. in all new trade agreements. \Ve can only According to Federal '' Hansard,'' some hope that the tremendous strength of the months ago an hon. member said that the Allies and prospective allies m1d the United wage paid to operators in the margarine States of America will be sufficiently great to industry was higher than that paiLl in the resist this ruthless Nazi aggression that has butter industry. I am not in a position to caused such a grave dislocation of inter argue the point. I believe the fairest way national trade and that there will be a return of dealing with the problem would be to lay to peaceful times, and that the e~p.orting dovvn a maximum quota of production of industries \Yill be restore·d to a cond1t10n of mm·garine in Australia. normality. The point I make is that Australia is J\f ention was made in the Agent-General's pledged to pay in London approximately report to the fact that certain types of timber £22,000,000 a year in interest on loans from that had previously been ~Jxported overseas, the United Kingdom, an-d it is essential that particularly fancy timbers, is no lo11ger per we export sufficient commodities to meet that mitteu. That means a further loss to the liability. Excepting for the moment the value State. We have to face these difficulties, and of gold produced in Australia for the fiscal I repeat that the Chief Secretary's Depart year ended J unc, 1940, I think 1Ye had a ment> has a very grave Tesponsibility. It is not favomable trade balance of only £534,000. I adequately recognised by the public that this believe that at one time it was not thought Department is faced with the pToblem of advisable to publish the amount of gold that neaotiating with the Commonwealth the trade had been won, but I notice, I think in the last in~aties of otheT countries, and the prospect issue of ''Wild Cat'' monthly, that it is of getting extended markets is becoming less estimated that Australia's unfavourable trade each year and month. balance had been reduced, after making provi sion for £22,000,000 in interest payments There has been a great swing against Great overseas, to approximately £5,000,000. Thus, Britain and her allies, because of the capitula the value of gold exported from Australia tion of once great powers, and all these last year was £16,466,000. I might mention nations are coming in to share in the kill, that the value of our gold exports is not thinking, of comse, that eventually Great included in the figures relating to our over Britain will succumb. I think that, with the seas trade balance. Last year, there was an Teassuring speech made by the British Prime adverse balance, after making provision for "Minister a few days ago, together with the 644 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply. growing strength of the United States demo bring a bout some cohesion between all those ·Cracy, that the tide has. turned, and, of course, funds that are now operating in Queensland. we, in this distant part of the Empire, will There are too many patriotic funds being be beneficiaries if that is so. worked to-day, and the people are somewhat distracted as to which of these funds they Mr. RUSSELL (Hamilton) (3.25 p.m.): should support. It seems to me that it would In Queensland to-day we have several funds be far better to concentrate on one or two for patriotic purposes, the chief of these being funds in order that the collections shall be the Red Cross Fund, the Australian Comforts remitted to one body and any case of distress, Fund, and the Patriotic Fund of Queensland. wherever it might occur-whether in a large Both the Reel Cross and the Australian Com centre or in a small one-might be treated forts Funds have branches throughout the on its merits and payments made from the State. I understand that contributions are central body. I instance the case of half-a made to the central bodies of these three funds dozen men from a small country centre whose upon some basis agreed upon, but what is hap dependants need relief. If they had a claim pening with regard to the other funds is what for help, they would naturally expect to get I foresaw when the Patriotic Funds Adminis relief from the big fund in Brisbane, and it tration Bill was going through last year. On would be r 0 aclily granted. What applies to that occasion I said, as reported on page 540 small centres should apply to others. The ·of '' Hansard' '- >Yhole of the money should be concenh·ated ''There has crept into this debate the in one centre. Each local body should retain a certnin proportion of its collections for question of the localisation of the use of purely local matters, but the central body patriotic funds. As I understand certain should see that all cases of distress a:re hon. memboTS, if a certain amount of money treated equitably and no centre got an is raised in a small country centre, it advantage over another. I commend that should be applied to the relief of distress suggestion to the Chief Secretary in the hope in that centre. 'l'hat would be unwork that before the trouble becomes too great it able." will be remedied. \Yhile the Premier held the same view as I I know that the Patriotic Fund in Brisbane did-that it 1.-as better to concentrate collec has circularised all country centres with this tions in one centre-that has not been done. object in mind, but I am sorry to say that To-day C\"Cry centre throughout Queensland in many instances they have met with a blank has its own local patriotic fund. Some of refusal of co-operation. There should be cohesion between all funds; all should pool the larger centres have been able to collect their resources, leaving it to the central body fairly largo amounts. I understand that it is to see that evcrv case is treated on its merits. the intention in the centres outside Brisbane I think the Go.vernment should take a hand to expend that money in the relief of distress in bringing about this consolidation rather among the men who have volunteered from than that >Ye should have a separate fund for those centres for overseas service. We find every centre in Queensland. that those centres that ha\"e no local patriotic fund of their own will probably have to fall The PREMIER (Hon. W. Forgan Smith, back on the big Brisbane fund. ::\fackay) (3.32 p.m.): The hon. member for I think it is generally admitted that the East Toowoomba raised the question of >nong procedure has been adopted in Queens rebates from the State Stores Board. I want land with rC'gard to patriotic funds other to tell him very plainly that no private than the two I have mentioned. It would individual is allowed to use the State Stores have been far better had it been laid down Board for the purpose of personal trading. at the beginning that all collections throuah Consequently, there are no rebates to any out the State should be sent to the cent~·al private individual. Any rebates that apply fund, the outside funds being allowed to as a result of bulk purchases are to the benefit retain a certain percentage for specific pur of the GoYernment and go to the consolidated poses. That procedure was followed during the last Great V\' ar, when something like from revenue of Queensland. £700,000 to £800,000 was collected for the ltir. Y eates: Such as the ambulance? Patriotic Fund. That fund distributed money throughout the whole of the State to The PRElUIER: Any authority we buy relieve distress. for; there are semi-governmental authorities for which we do the buying. That buying, The same practice has been followed in of course, is done with approval by the New South \Vales, where they have only the Red Cross Fund and the Lord M a vor 's Government. In other words, some semi Patriotic l<'uncl of Sydney. 'l'he Lord Mayor's governmental body, such as a hospital board, Patriotic Fund of Sydney is charged with the might desire to purchase chemicals, bandages, ·duty of providing comforts for troops going and lint through the State Stores Board. If over.seas and o_f relieving distress among those goods can be bought in large quantities, soldrers nnd therr dependants as the occasion a lower average price is payable and economy arises. I~ seems to me that is a better system is effected, and the rebates go to the people than havmg hundreds of small funds operat concerned. No private person is allowed to ing throughout the State. trade or make purchases through the State Stores Board. I think the time has arrived when the Chief Secretary's Department should endeavour to Mr. Yeates: Hear, hear! Supply. [10 OCTOBER.] Supply. 645 The PREMIER: I do not know where be closed, even temporarily, or if some of the the hon. member got the idea. vessels are lost, the position is worsened very materially. IUr. Y eates: John Fihelly told me. I think the hon. member for Toowoomba The PREJIIER: When? had more in mind the problem of post-war I\Ir. Yeates: About a year ago. It was trade. I have given a good deal of thought probably three or four years ago. He men to the matter betause it is obvious that the tioned it to me, and said when I was speaking -war cannot continue for ever, that there must to him that he had done it. he a cessation of hostilities some day and so there must be a period when people will The PREJUIER: The hon. member had rollo\v the pursuits of peace again. Let us better have another talk with him. I am hope that it will not be long before the dealing with the position as it exists to-day, peoples of the world will determine that it and I say that no private individual has any i :, better for men to work with one another right to use the State StaTes Board. TheTe rather than to train with the object of killing is mnple power for co-operative societies to one another. trade under the Industrial and Provident Societies Act. I take the ...-iew that after the \Yar there will llf' a greater Yolume of trade within the lUr. Yeates: He told me that members British Commomvealth of Nations than in the of Parliament buy through the Board. past. Great Britain is likely to be less pre The PREMIER: He has a good deal of occupied with European affairs than she has \Yit. I advise the hon. member not to allow been and her capital and trade will probably himself to become a gas pipe for people to he cli,,tributed through the British Common blow through. No such rebates are given. -,,ealth rather than diffused through countries I am not aware of an;r·thing that m.ty ha,·e that are of little or no Yaluc in periods of taken place beyond the past eight years. difficulty. Sometimes, in fact, such trade The only rebates I know anything ahout are r'onnections of themselves create difficulties. I those referred to in the report of the Royal believe the resources of the British Common Commission un the Dairying Industry all(l a \:ealth are snffieient to enable a system of copy of it mav be obtained in the 'Parlia trade to be conducted equitably within the mentary Librat:y. British Commonwealth itself. By that means \I'C shall get a better distribution of popula The hon. member for Toowoomba raised tion, a better distribution of labour, and a the very interesting question of the export better distribution of investment capital. trade of Queensland, ~which is of vital con 'l'ha t, of course, in turn \Yill build up what ~ern to ~1s all. \V e must take a very keen might l1e described as the economic unit of mterest m the development of our existin{)' the British Commonwealth, which will :in markets and strive to develop new ones if it9clf be a gu:q·antee of peace within that possible. To some extent that is the respon Commonwealth. That is one way that I can sibility of the Agent-General's Office and the see of building up our national security and Agent-General and his staff arc cloing excel preserving civilisation against war. Of lent -work in that regan1. course, the ideal thing would be a union of At 3.37 p.m., democracies having similar ohjcetives. That i,; not outside the realms of human possibili 'The CHAIR~fAN resumed the chair. ties either; anything, Mr. King, is possible. \Yell-ordered minds are thinking objectively Tile PRElUIER: The difficulties asso of things that we can conceive as possible. ciated with our foreign trade arise from ~a \Ye must think forward and think objectively. number of causes that are not normal. For example, the ...-olume of Australian products \Vhen we are considering these things we purchased by Great Britain is determined to must also remember that everything exacts its some extent by the availability of shipping price. It is quite easy to stand up in Parlia space and our ability to get the goods safely ment, or on the public platform, and say to British ports. That is a determining factor you stand for a certain line of policy, or you in any arrangement for the sale of products stand for world security on a given basis, between Great Britain and this and other but if civilisation is going to be maintained, dominions. I can say that Queensland has and if om young people being born to-day had a very fair deal in connection with are not going to be offered up as cannon shipping space. Every time I visit Sydney I fol1der 20 ye'ars hence, we must be willing make inquiries into the control of shipping, to vay the price that a peace policy will into the number of vessels trading between exact. That price dcpemls on the extent of Great Britain and Australia and the alloca free thinking and objective thinking as well tion of tonnage to the various ports, and as determination and co-operation among I know that the shipping control authorities decent-minded people. We have as a nucleus have given this State a fair deal. Having the British Commonwealth. We have the regard to the amount of shipping available, possibility that the United States of Ar;1e~ica we have no complaint whatsoever to make on and other countries that may have a s1m1lar behalf of Queensland. Of course, if the democratic objective will adhere to the same quantity of shipping is limited we are given principles. 'That, of course, is for the future, a quota in common with anyone else, bnt it but one cannot think about those things too must always be remembered that that space soon. Everything that has ever come to pass is available to us only so long as the sea has been born in the mind of some individual lanes are open. If at any time they should who has transferred it into ordered thought. 646 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply. It has then travelled round the world, gaining depends. A great deal of economic recon fresh adherents as time goes on, until it struction will have to be done, but before· becomes possible of accomplishment. that economic reconst1·uction is possible we shall have to do a bit of reconstructive think It is not idle to say that the British ing as well. That will have to be done Commonwealth presents every reasonable whether we like it or not. means of building up such a union. It can be based on preferential trade betV>een all the The Agent-General, of course, is working units of the British Commonwealth. The under a good deal of difficulty at the present resources of raw material are enormous. time. We have offices in the Strand and else No-one can make more than an estimate of where, and the work of this State is being the economic resources that are, say, within carried on. Nothing is being lost sight of in Australia. The capacity for population in the direction of obtaining Britain's trade. Australia is very great; probably greater The shipping of our sugar is not subject to than any estimates that people have yet the control of the Overseas Transport Com made, because mankind has a knack of dis mittee at all. covering the solutions of pressure of popula tion as they arise. The old doctrine of That is arranged by the British Govern ment under an agreement I made last year M althus did not take into account all the amazing productivity of the land as the result with the British Sugar Control Board, which undertook to find shipping as far as was of better varieties of rrops, better cultiva tion, fertilisation, and irrigation. humanly possible. Bringing New Zealand into the British Empire's scheme of purchase Others who followed him had the idea that was a relief not only to Queensland, but to population would grow in a greater ratio than Great Britain, because it means that Great the capacity to feed the people and the world Britain takes 300,000 tons of sugar, and the would suffer in consequence. Since then other 200,000 is divided between Canada and science has made great advances. The work New Zealand. That shipping is charter of Farrer and others has increased the yield of shipping, and as anyone knows, charter land enonnously. The results of the application shipping in abnormal times is ra~her .a of science to agriculture generally has been difficulty. We have been able to sh1p th1s such that he would be a bold man indeed who year, up to elate, over 200,000 tons of sugar would set any limit to the possible increased to New Zealand and Canada, and about capacity for production that may take place 70 000 or 80 000 tons to Great Britain. There over the next generation. 'iVhat has hap is 'a large a~ount of sugar yet to be lif!ecl, pened in the past will continue to happen. but unless something has happened JUSt Man must ever stuggle onwards, and he must recently, the situation has in no way strive to climb upwards as well; but what deteriorated. The marvellous thing about it m-er we do, or whatever objective we have, we all is that we have been able to get so have to be ready to pay the priee. It will much of our produce delivered overseas, thus not come as a result of a pious resolution, or benefiting the producers here and the con of wishful thinking; it can come only as a sumers overseas. result of objective thinking and determined effort to attain the aim tha.t your thinking The report of the Agent-General is avail has called into being. I believe that Aus able for hon. members, and the hon. member tralia has always had an excellent market in for East Toowoomba has a copy somewhere. Great Britain, and the probability of markets JUr. Yeates: I have it here. with victory in the picture will be greater still. The PRE]}IJER: If he has not read it he cannot blame me. The hon. member asked One of the difficulties of marketing in me for it. He said that it had not been Great Britain over the last 10 years was the presented. policy of economic nationalism that had spread during that period. Treaties, diplo lUr. Yeates: Oh, no. I have it here. It matic and political, with other countries had was something else. always tied to them certain trade concessions. The PREMIER: The hon. member is l<"or example, Denmark was able to get a guar forgiven on this occasion, but he must be anteed market for butter and bacon in Great cnreful in future. Britain, not only on the basis of the excellent quality of its product, but because for diplo The hon. member for Hamilton raised on matic reasons it >vas regarded as the thing to interesting point, in fact, a number of tie down its trade to Great Britain. That interesting points in regard to the control situation no longer exists. It is better that of patriotic funds. There is not the difficulty what those countries previously did with that many people think there is in regard to Great Britain should be done with the British patriotic funds. Last year Parliament passed Dominions if they are capable of supplying an Act taking power to grant permission for the commodity. Of course, I do not propose the establishment of the central fund, and to go into nny elaboration of that policy; but to appoint Government representatives on the I lay down the principle that the future committee controlling the fund, also to pro depends on men's co-operation with one vide that all the funds shall be subject to another and their intelligent use of the audit by the Auditor-General's department. resources that nature has given them the That is being done. The Auditor-General's opportunity to develop. On the extent to department is auditing all these funds, and which men learn to work together rather than the people associated with the management to kill their fellows the future of civilisation of the funds are appreciative of the service Supply. [10 OcTOBER.] Supply. 647 given. I believe in central control. That is there is that a man may he working in the obviously a necessity. Cairns district, for example. He may not be a permanent resident uf Cairns; he may be Mr. 1\Ioore: Do you mean that the in the district temporarily, working in the Auditor-General is auditing all these funds? sugar industry.. If that man enlists1 his name The PREMIER: Yes. is kept on the llst of those who enlisted fro:n the Cairns district. Later on, when he IS JUr. lUoore: All these small funds? demobilised he may choose to reside in The PREMIER: They are not being Brisbane. If there is no co-operation between audited by himself. He can either have it the Cairns fun·d and the Brisbane fund, it is done by one of his own officers, or appoint obvious that it wuuld he defficult to know to some person in the district to do it. That is which fund any aid given to that man shoul( frequently done. be charged. Mr. J}Ioore: These small funds that are I have a Bill prepared to take power to do got up by business people? these things. The Act is powerful enough now to do what is necessary, but, if it is thought The PRE~IIER: Not at all. I was desirable to take further powers than those coming to that. The number of patriotic contained in the Act at present, I shall not funds is liable to exaggeration, owing to the hesitate tu ask Parliament to give those form in which the question was put to me po1Yers to the much-discussed Governor in this session. I was asked how many permits Council. had been granted under that Act~ Naturally, ~fr. Watoon, the under secretary to the I had to give the number of permits, but Chief S~cretary, administers this Act. No sometimes a permit is granted only for a new permits for any major funds are being day. It may be a permit for a big gathering granted. Permits, of course, are being granted in the Brisbane City Hall, such as the for gatherings that are held Jaily all over floral festival. the place. That is a different thing.. It may be a permit for something of a Of course, I do not want to have to decide similar character, some concert or series of to use any legal authority to bring about concerts in the City Hall. The permit exvires amalgamations to the extent that they are once the effort is completed. Before a permit necessary. I should prefer to have that done is granted the percentage of receipts that is by the good will and good sense of those con to go to the various funds must be stated cerned. One has still to have regard to the clearly, and a retum must be sent to the Chief fact that there is a very natural desire on the Serretary 's Department by the treasurer of part of many people in country districts to the committee, so that the funds obtained c'ln manage their o'vn affairs. For the Lord be taken into account and checked with the l\fayor 's Bombing Fund places outside uf parent-fund receipts. The Auditor-General is Brisbane sent money along to the Lord Mayor able to follow through, to use a term that is at Brisbane, and that money was transmitted applicable to more things than one. to London. That is an example of co-opera It Suppose, for example, we ran a series of tion. was competent for any of the concerts in the City Hall, half of the proceeds patriotic funds under their constitutions to It to go to the Red Cross Fun·d and half to the contribute to that fund. must he borne in Australian Comforts Fund. Those associated mind that there are other places in Queensland with the running of the concerts send returns than Brisbane; there are other people enlisting to the Chief Secretary's Department, which in Queensland than those from Brisbane. As are sent on to the Auditor-General's Depart a matter of fact, although I did not want to ment, so that when an audit is being made of bring the matter up, we have enough recruits the bigger func1s the auditor has a check on for the A.I.F. on hand at the present time the receipts that are supposed to have been to keep us going until well into the new year. paid into those funds. So, from that point of As chairman of the State Recruiting Cummit vie1v, the administration is very good. tee I know all about that. In districts where money is raised, and from which men have There is more co-operation between these volunteered freely, it is very natural for the funds than is generally thought. The Aus people to wish to control their funds, so that tralian Comforts Fund, for example, is t hev will he used for their own people. I authorised to send comforts everywhere. t hi;1k myself the solution will he found in the Those comforts are provide·d by a number of working out of a formula. whereby we shall be people all over the State. able to retain a percentage for local needs, an·d one central fund may be established so Mr. Russell: They have a number of that the needs that exist in any part of the branches. State can be financed from that fund. The PREMIER: Yes, and the local j}Ir. Russell: Like the Red Cross Fund? branches in the various States and districts have the right to give comforts to men who The PREMIER: That is the principle enlist in their district prior to their going I think IYill proha bly emerge. It is not a very into camp. The great hulk of the material easy thing to get people who have raised they collect is shipped from the central several thousands of pounds in a district to authority to its destination. There is no agree to send that money by cheque to BTis overlapping there, there is no overlapping in hane. When you ten them that their men the Red Cross Fund, hut there is in the will be looked after they are not too ready to Patriotic Fund. The difficulty that I can see accept your word. 648 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply. Mr. Russell: The poor chap from Snake the last decade, but I think it will be con Gully falls back on the Brisbane fund because ceded that price was an important factor in there is no local fund for him. promoting that demand. When one compares the price for margarine and other foodstuffs The PRElUIER: I think arrange with the price of butter and other dairy pro ments will be made along those lines. I take ducts, one can well understand the great the view that something along those lines must increase in the sale of margarine. The be done. We are trying to achieve our object Premier also referred to the sale of our sugar, in the spirit of sweet reasonableness that I but, despite his optimism, I am afraid that in usually ask people to adopt. I repeat that a few years we may not be able to sell even we hold aloft the banner of co-operation, and our sugar overseas. For instance, since the we think that in this worthy effort the diffi outbreak of war the British Government have culty can be solved. encouraged the production of beet sugar in Great Britain, and, as I have said, it may be Mr. YEATES (East Toowoomba) ( 4.4 p.m.): The post-war problems spoken of by extremely difficult for us to send even sugar the Premier are very important. We have abroad in a year or two. first of all to win the war, and I am with that The Premier: Half a million tons of hon. gentleman when he speaks about looking beet sugar are being sold in Great Britain to the future. \V e have to think ahead all this year. the while. It is a treat to hear an hon. member on the other side of the Chamber Mr. JUULLER: That is so, and that is say that we should look ahead, that we should why I think it may be difficult for us to sell prepare for the future, and try to visualise our sugar overseas in the near future. What what is going to happen in 20 years' time. I applies to sugar may apply to other primary congratulate the Premier upon his foresight. products also. I thoroughly endorse his remarks about the I feel that the State is doing very little war and warmly support him in his ideas in helping to push the sale of our primary about the splendid co-operative spirit that produce overseas. If we examine what New should be displayed. With him I hope for Zealand is doing we notice that £80,000 is better things. Of course, he slipped very allocated there for one department only for quietly over the subject of party politics. I the purpose of encouraging, by way of should like the Premier to explain the duties advertising and other means, the sale of of the State Publicity Officer, and why an butter and cheese alone. Just compare that amount of £570 is required. I want to know with what is expended by 10 departments in how the work is done and what it is all about. Queensland to increase the sale and con· The patriotic funds are in the capable hands sumption of all our dairy produce [ I am of :\fr. G. IY. \Vatson, the Under Secretary of not going to discuss this phase of the subject the department. I should like to remind the with destructive criticism as my purpose, Premier, however, that the Patriotic Funds but Parliament might consider the desir Administration Act was brought in at my ability of extending the activities of that instigation, and I am very pleased with its office. The facilities exist if money and administration under Mr. \Vatson. Of course, material are provided. I know there are difficulties associated with We have to think now of post-war difficul pat1·iotic funds. I have attended many patriotic meetings, and I have heard people ties. Out of the present trouble, quite a new say, ''Oh, Brisbane-that is Queen street system of marketing will arise. Perhaps we again. 'vV e arc not going to sencl it to Bris shall not share in or benefit by trade agree bane." S'till, I am satisfied that the funds ments as in the past and shall have to com· are properly supervised by Mr. vVatson and pete with the whole world, but whatever the that there is a spirit of sweet reasonableness position is we shall probably be placed in and co-operation in their administmtion. I a position quite different from that in which am sorry that that feeling does not always we are to-day. Nothing could help Queens prevail in all matters of State. land more in looking after her own interests than to have her own marketing department. Mr• .JUULLER (Fassifern) (4.8 p.m.): A great deal more can be done to advance The vote for ''Agent-General for the State'' the State's trade in primary produce than this year is slightly less than that of last year mere dependence on the Common>vealth and and, in my opinion, it is altogether too small. various boards. I hope that in the next 12 Both the Premier and the hon. member for months the Premier will give that aspect of Toowoomba referred to the problem of mar· the situation very serious consideration. I keting our products overseas, and the Premier am sure if he does that good will result. I went on to refer to post-war problems. was delighted to listen to his speech this Queensland depends upon her export indus afternoon and to know he is thinking along tries to a considerable extent for her exis those lines, and thinking out ways and means of improving the marketing of our primary ten~e, and thus it is necessary that we should dv more for our State than we are doing now. produce overseas. After all, if we take away At the present time we depend too much upon our income from primary pTOduce we have the Commonwealth Government and the boards nothing very much left. That is because the acting for them. I appreciate the good work majority of our people are either directly done by the Agent-General and his staff. or indirectly dependent on our primary industries. With the handful of people we The hon. member for Toowoomba referred have, we cannot expect any greater avenues to the increase in the sale of margarine during for our produce in the local market for many Supply. [10 OcTOBER.] Supply. 649 _years to come. Therefore, we are to a great the ambulance and 50 per cent. to party extent dependent on our overseas market. funds. I observed that the Premier is keeping a The ACTING ATTORNEY-GENERAL close watch on the activities of the various (Hon. J. O'Keefe, Cairns) (4.17 p.m.): I bodies that have been authorised to collect desire to deny the statement that any permit for patriotic purposes. I should like to con was issued on the conditions explained by gratulate the officers of his department the hon. member for Fassifern. If the hon. responsible for that work. Immediately after member has any particulars I should like to the outbreak of war a number of people have them. throughout my electorate spoke to me on this very subject. They were uneasy lest a The CHAiruiAN: Debate on that subject position should arise like that of the Great must now end. War when a number of unauthorised Mr. lliULLER (Fassifern) (4.18 p.m.): collectors for patriotic purposes got busy. I accept the Ac;ting Attorney-General's Hy experience is that there has been no explanation. I felt it advisable to draw his great exploitation of the community, so far, attention to the matter. I know there is at any rate. I hope that the departmental not an hon. member opposite who would con officers will keep a watchful eye on matters clone an action of that kind. I merely men of that kind. tion the matter in order that the officers I was somewhat alarmed to learn that might be more vigilant. It is amazing to someone had obtained a permit to run a learn how many people are willing to take ehocolate wheel at the Beenleigh Show on advantage of the present situation to make 20 September last, 50 per cent of the pro money; they seem to forget that they have eeeds to go to the ambulance and 50 per any responsibility to the people. While I cent. to party funds. I do not know how the appreciate what has been done to prevent permit was secured. To probe the position, that sort of thing, despite all the care that I act_ually bought a few tickets myself. I can be taken, these things will happen some questioned the person selling me the tickets. times. I hope the Minister and the officers I said, "What are the proceeds for~" The in his department \l·ill endeavour to see that seller replied, ''50 per cent. party funds there is not a recurrence. and 50 per cent. ambulance.'' The Acting Attorney-General: No permit lUr. Gair: What party? \Vas is, ued. J f we have any suspicions we write to the police. JUr. MULLER: The Labour Party, of ,~ourse. I bought a few tickets, knowing that lUr. RUSSELL (Hamilton) (4.19 p.m.): lt was for party funds. I haYe Ji"tenetl with interest to the speeches about c u:r export markets. I call attention The CHAIRMAN: Order! The hon. to one pregnant pamgraph on page 2 of the member is entitled to discuss patriotic funds Agent-General's report- Dn this vote, but permits for chocolate wheels must be discussed on another vote. '' The war and the aftermath of the present conflict must have a profound effect JUr. lUaher interjected. upon the economic fabric and constitution of the l:nitecl Kingdom. There may, in The CHAIR~IAN: Order! I do not want any help from the Leader of the Opposition. fact, be a complete reorientation of the present trading relations as between the ~he ~m~. memb:r ~an only discuss this ques tion m rts application to patriotic funds but Unitr:l Kingdom and the outside world, no other fund. ' and as affecting the home agricultural industry-an orientation and change hav ~Ir. ~IULLER: I accept your ruling. I ing vital repercussions on our exports of wanted to draw the attention of the Com butter, sugar, meat, and other products.'' mittee to the fact that these thinas are hap pening. I know the officers of the depart Although fear has been expressed that ;nent are very careful as to the permits they our overseas markets may shrink, and this rssue. I felt that I should mention this have very serious effects on our industries, matter because some of these permits might it is noteworthy that prior to the outbreak have been issued perhaps without the neces of war the policy of Great Britain had sary investigation. c;hanged considerably in regard to all the agricultural industries. There were numer The Premier: When was that meeting ous exponents of the greater development of held~ the agricultural industry in Great Britain. lUr. MULLER: It was at the Beenleigh Legislation had been passed through both Show. I felt sure the hon. gentleman was Houses of Parliament for bounties on home not aware of it. It was on 20 September, grown cattle. The whole of the milk last. industry was conducted by pools, in England, Scotland, and Wales. A large number of The Premier: The Attorney-General persons in Great Britain are endeavouring denies that he ever granted such a permit. to rejuvenate home agricultural industries. Mr. lUULLER: I am very glad to have There are vast areas of arable land there that information. I think the hon. member that could be used for the growth of food for Albert was at the show and he bought stuffs. As a matter of fact, much of that tickets, too. There was no effort to cover land is being utilised to-day for feeding the up the fact that 50 per cent. was to go to population. It appears to me that the view 650 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply. will be taken that Great Britain must grow 7 lb. of this synthetic wool. I have had a great quantity of the primary products the opportunity of inspecting this synthetic that she formerly imported from her over· wool in New York, and the fabrics manufac seas ·duminions, and that will have the effect tured from the fibre very closely resemble of causing a further shrinkage of the imports woollen fabrics. Our duty to-day, of course, to Great Britain from the dominions. As is to take all these matters into considera Mr. Pike points out, that may have serious tion and prepare for the shrinkages that may repercussions on Australian exports. occur in the markets for many of our export vVe must bear in mind that there is that commodities, and our thanks are dne to Mr. further difficulty to be surmounted. The Pike for calling our attention to these things. growth of the home agricultural industries will probably decrease Australian exports Mr. DART (Wynnum) ( 4.26 p.m.): I and the only market that will be open to should like to offer my congratulations to us may be the inter-dominion market, but, we the Under Secretary of the Chief Secretary's know that many of our sister dominions are Department for the excellent manner in which actively engaged in growing similar products he is administering the Patriotic Funds to those produced here. Except to the Administration Act. I think the first markets of Great Britain there does not Patriotic Fund was started in Brisbane just appear to be much chance of increasing our after the Act was passed. Wynnum followed exports of primary products, and we must next, then came Ipswich, and since then a keep these two matters in view when consider number of centres throughout the State have ing our post-war policy. I, therefore, established funds. Whilst these funds have commend the paragraph in Mr. Pike's report been operating very satisfactorily under Mr. to the very serious consideration of not only Watson 's guidance, I think some improve hon members but people engaged in primary ment could be effected. The Wynnum industry. committee recently asked the secretary and me to wait upon Mr. l¥atson in an endeavour Mr. Pike mentions particularly butter, to arrange an amalgamation with other sugar and meat. There is no doubt that patriotic funds in adjoining centres. My prior 'to the war there was a big increase suggestion is that we should amalgamate in the production of dairy products in several organisations, but we must give first Britain. There has been a big increase in consideration to community interests. We the production of meat, and the Premier must forget electorate interests. I suggest has pointed out that the British Government that community interest would not be were paying a bounty for the product~on of encouraged by an amalgamation of, s!ly, beet for the manufacture of sugar. The \Vynnum and Brisbane. Local people hke British people are growing more cereals thaa to" give local men gifts "When they are going hitherto and there has been a remarkable overseas. If our funds were to come to incre~se in the production of fruits for Brisbane the community interest would be lost canning. vVe export a large quantity of altogether. I suggest that an amalgamation canned fruits and jams to the United King of vVynnum, Cleveland, Redland ..B.ay, dom but the British people are now produc Tingalpa, and a few of the other ad.Jonung ing 'a large quantity of these articles them dist>-icts would be of benefit to all selves. It all shows the trend of British concerned_ I am pleased with the work ~hat policy and no-one can find fault with it. This Mr. Watson and his colleagues are domg. »-ar has taught them the lesson that they I am sure that thev are administering the must be more dependent on local production Act efficiently and doing what is. right .and than in the past. just by the public so far as that IS possible. Against that this factor has to be lUr. MAHER (West Moreton) (4.29 considered: after this war there may be a p.m.) : Last year "Queensland Country Life" great exodus from Great Britain to these published an interview with a Queensland shores of people who will not put up with grazier named Mr. Ian Escombe. He the inconveniences and the horrors of war in complained about the discourtesy shown to a country open to invasion by a barbarous him when he visited the office of the Agent nation such as Germany. They may elect General in London. I do not know the to transfer themselves and their possessions gentleman, but he is listed in the ''Queens to Australia. This should give us a greater land Country Life,'' a journal that circu local market and be the means of using up lates throughout the pastoral areas of Queens much of our e_xportable produce. After all, land, as a Queensland grazier who visited the our best market is our local market, and the Agent-General's office in London. bigger we make that market the better for our primary producers. For these reasons I He said he wished to put in an application commend Mr. Pike's report to hon. members for a lnnd ballot to take place in Queens and others. land. He was told that his certificate would have to be witnessed by a justice of the With regard to wool, the fear is that with peace. He inquired of an official in a highly the growth of the manufacture of substi responsible position in the Agent-General's tutes our market in Great Britain will Office whether it should be an Australian or decrease. Prior to the war some nations English justice of the peace. The official were marketing very fine substitutes for ensually replied that he did not know. On wool. There is one named "lanital" inquiry as to whether a copy of the Queens produced from milk. According to my land Land Act was available, the official information 25 gallons of milk will produce replied that he was extremely busy. When Supply. [10 OCTOBER.] Supply. 651 further questioned as to 1vhether he could be responsible for the government of the State interviewed later the official answered that is this- he did not think so. Of course, that is only '' As indicated above the trade of Queens one side of the case, but there is sufficient land and other Australian States has bene in it to suggest that there is something fited greatly from the purchase by Great radically 1nong, if what this grazier terms Britain of the exportable surpl~s. of most ,, 'a man occupying a highly responsible posi of our main primary commod1hes upon tion in the office of the Agent-General'' dealt terms l'Basonably satisfactory to the pro with him in that discourteous way. dncm. 'l'hese fortuitous arrangements, The ''Queensland Country Life,'' having however should not blind us to the .some know ledge of this man, has this to say- fact th~t sooner or later-either before or after the termination of the present hostili '' Because the State cannot afford even ties-problems and isuses will inevitably the slightest ground for doubt in London, arise vihilly affecting the future welfare of and in view of the complaints made by our Queensland export industries.' '' Mr. Ian Escombe, a Queensland grazier who That confirms the opinions I expressed returned to Brisbane only two weeks ago during my attack on the Budget when I s:"id after two years abroad, we suggest that that that important factor was not be~ng there exists sufficient grounds for a thorough taken into account when we were budgetmg and impartial overhaul of what should be for increased record exPenditure. I regret to an all-important and influential office. say that not enough aftention is being given by the Government to th~ in:por~ant point "It must be confessed that the benefits that was stressed by Mr. P1ke m lus thought accruing to the State through its London ful review of world-wide conditions to-clay. representation are pitifully few, and because of C.lr. E•scombe 's standing, and because The next paragraph of his report is worth of the nature of his charges, 'Queensland quoting, too. It says- Country Life' believes that those charges '' 'l'he ~war and the aftermaGh of the pre are serious ones indeed.'' sent conflict must have a profound effect upon the economic fabric and constitution There is the complaint made by an Austra of the United Kingdom. There may, in lian who visited the office of the Agent fad, be a complete re-orientation of the General, and who naturally felt that on going present trading relations as between the to London, a place far away from his !tome United Kins. if she and l1er husband cared to call at The PRE:iliiER: They are all filed. The 'ravistock Court (the home of the official fact that it was replied to in the same paper to whom she was speaking) at 8 p.m. he and the paper gave prominence to it satisfied would be pleased to witness the signatures. me. Neither lVIr. nor Mrs. Escombe called as arranged, nor did they call at any time IUr. NIIDIO (Oxley) (4.51 p.m.): A later.' '' number of residents in my electorate have visited London and they cannot speak too Then it gives the list of further facilities highly of the treatment accorded them by that were granted by the Agent-General's the Agent-General's office. As a matter of office in the ordinary ~way. fact, one gentleman went so far as to say that he thought the services rendered were The reply was published on Thursday, 18 really too good. They even sent a man out May, 1939. I am quite willing to let the hon. with him to find a person in London whom gentleman read the details. he desired to see, merely because he had a letter }fr. Maher: Oh no, as long as it has of introduction from someone in Queensland been dealt with. As the Premier has said, some people will complain about anything; but so far as my The PRE}IIER: It was dealt with at experience goes and that of the people from the time. my electorate who have visited the Agent JUr. Maher: I thought it might not: have General's office, I can say that the office has come under your notice. given a wonderful service. The PREMIER: It was dealt with at :lir. YEATES (East Toowoomba) ( 4.52 the time. In the same paper as the com p.m.): As a business man I have been sizmg plaint appeared the denial of ::\1r. Pike was up people for 40 years. I met Mr. Pike published in a prominent position and there whilst he was in Brisbane and spent half an has been no further Teply to the reply I hour with him. I am quite satisfied about gave, so I am satisfied >vith the position. Mr. Pike. He is a good executive officer and Of course, there are a number of people will see that his officers do their work. I who are very difficult to please. I know have a son at present in the A.I.F. over there, people want the Agent-General to make and he speaks highly of the office and what arrangements fol' presentation at court and it is doing for the boys from this country. get them invitations to garden parties at Buckingham Palace, and all that kind of Honourable }!embers: Hear, hear! thing. Vote (Chief Office) agreed to. :My experience-and it is not confined to my own observation-is that men who have AGENT-GENERAL FOR THE STATE. gone to London from Australia speak in the highest possible terms of the Queensland office. The PRE:IIIER (Hon. W. Forgan Smith, I have abundant evidence-quite unsolicited 1Iackay) : I move- -in letters that men have written to me, '' That £10,092 be granted for 'Agent expressing their appreciation of the service General for the State.' '' granted to them by the Queensland office. I have had letters from members of the Austra Vote agreed to. lian Imperial Forces expressing their delight with the treatment they received from the Queensland office. Y on cannot please every CO-ORDINATOR-GENERAL OF PUBLIC WORKS. body in this world. Quite a number of people The PRE~IIER (Hon. W. Forgan Smith, think an official should be hanging up on a Mackay): I move- nail, to be taken clown immediately they Tequire him. 'rh at, of course, cannot be clone. '' That £6,350 be granted for 'Co \Vhere intervie,Ys are required, busy men have ordinator-General of Public W arks.' '' to arrange the time and date. I often have engagements a month ahead. If I were to Vote agreed to. see all the people who call at my office 24 hours a day would not be enough. You have IMMIGRATION. to arrange your appointments according to The PRE:IHER (Hon. W. Forgan Smith, the time at your disposal and the urgent :M:ackay): I move- work you have to do. " That £1,258 be granted for 'Immigra The Agent-General has very important work to do. According to the statement the lady tion.' '' desired to have some papers signed. She Mr. NUIMO (Oxley) (4.54 p.m.): I said she would be engaged at her work till am not objecting to this vote, but I s~oul.cl 5 o'clock. Of course, that is after hours, like some information as to what It IS but the officer concerned offered to receive actually doing. It is true that ~he ~ote is her at his home and sign the papers that only £1,258, but there are no Immigrants night at 8 o'clock. Any member of Parlia arriving at present. ment is at liberty to see the whole of these documents. I have not quoted them all, as The Premier: There are some. I do not think that is necessary. }lr. NIIDIO: Could not this department Mr. Maher: No. be placed under some other department under 654 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply. the control of the Chief Secretary's Depart PARLIAMENTARY COUNSEL AND DRAFTSMAN. ment, thus saving much of this expense~ The staff must have a great deal of difficulty The PRElUIER (Hon. W. Forgan Smith, filling in their time at present unless they Mackay) ( 4.59 p.m.) : I move- have other duties to perform. '' That £1,780 be granted for 'Parlia- The Premier: They have been allotted mentary Counsel and Draftsman '.'' other duties. The vote is the same as last year. Mr. Mr. NliUlUO: I merely rose to get tha~ Broadbent has been ill for some time and is ~nfo~mation because I know that very few now on sick leave, but I understand that he 1mm1grants are coming into Queensland is making a satisfactory recovery. We all to-day. I notice, however, there has been a appreciate the services of that gentleman in reduction in the ilUmber of staff from three the office he holds and the way he has carried to two. out his duties for many years. I am sure we all wish him a very speedy return to The PREMIER (Hon. W. Forgan Smith, complete vigour and hr:1lth. His duties are Mackay) (4.56 p.m.): There is not much being carried out at the present time by immigration at present, but the officer in the Assistant Parliamentary Draftsman, charge of this department has to deal with :ur. Seymour, who is doing the work very overseas children who are due to come here. satisfactorily. If Mr. Seymour requires assistance he can call on the Crown Solicitor's Mr. lUoore: Is he dealing with those Department for it. evacuees who came from Hong Kong? 1\Ir. NHIMO (Oxley) (5.1 p.m.): I The PREMIER: Yes, but particularly should like to say briefly that when Bills are with children who are due to come. We brought forward, particularly the large ones, have made the necessary arrangements at it would be of great help if the meaning of the Immigration Depot, we have cleaned up certain sections could be explained in the the whole place, repainted it and provided same way as in the Companies Bill in 1930. beds and new bedding so that suitable accommodation will be available for them Tile Premier: I did that with ~he Income immediately they land. Tax Assessment Bill, too. Mr. JUoore: A good many went there. Mr. Nlli'IlUO: Exactly. I do not think my suggestion would entail great expense. It The PREMIER: Yes. would certainly be of assistance to lion. JUr. JUoore: I was wondering who was membeTs and it would tend to prevent some taking charge of them. of the amendments we have to make to Acts in the following year. Very often when a Tl!e PREJU.I.ER: This department is Bill comes before us we find that there are taking charge of them, but whilst it is doing clauses in it Y.hich could be materially so the officer in charge becomes an officer altered if this explanation of the objects of of the Department of Health and Home the Bill was given to members. affairs. Arrangements have been made with the Commonwealth Government about the Jir. JUAHER (West Moreton) (5.3 p.m.): matter and detailed infonnation may be had I am glad to hear from the P:remier that from there. Generally speaking, however Mr. Broadbent is showing signs of recovery. we provide facilities for medical and dental We all miss his very friendly presence in treatment. All office and staff expenses are the House. Over a number of years, he has paid by the Commonwealth Government. A been of great assistance to hon. members quota is granted to us on a population basis. and has always been ready to help any hon. Mr. Holmes, of the Immigration Department, member to understand any provision of a is seconded to the Department of State Bill. He has also assisted in the framing Children to deal with the evacuee British of amendments. children, the Department of Health and Home I hope the suggestion I recently made as Affairs having arranged that the British to the drafting of Bills will not be ignored. children shall be accommodated at the Immi In Bills covering an extensive range it gration Depot. Certain vessels are en route would be wiser to have a greater number of to Australia bringing a number of children clauses than to have one occupying several to this State. Apart from them, the evacua pages. It would be easier for hon. members tion of children from Great Britain has been to debate the Bill, particularly in Committee. temporarily suspended, but we have to have facilities for proper treatment of children The Premier: I gave instructions to in the event of others coming here. that effect to the Parliamentary Draftsman the first year I became Premier. We have Vote (Immigration) agreed to. had no Bills in which a clause has run to two or three pages. MUSEUM. JUr. JUAHER: I counted the pages of a The PREMIER (Hon. W. Forgan Smith, clause extending to three the other day. Mackay): I move- The Premier: You are thinking of an '' That £3,939 be granted for old Bill. 'Museum'.'' JUr.JUAHER: No, the Bill being discussed Vote agreed to. when this request was made to the Premier. Supply. [10 OCTOBER.] Supply. I do not want to labour the point. The PUBLIC LIBRARY OF QUEENSLAND. Premier sees the matter as I do. The PREMIER (Hon. W. Forgan Smith, 'l'he Premier: It would be better for :".Iackay): I move- everybody. " That £3,421 be granted for 'Public .Mr. liAHER: Yes; it is only a matter Library of Queensland.' '' of emphasising our desires to the Parlia· mentary Draftsman, an-d I am sure th_at he lUr. YEATES (East Toowoomba) (5.8 will be quick enough on the uptake to g1ve us p.m.): Is the Public Library free to everyoneW Bills with more and shorter clauses. The Premier: Yes. \V e may agree with one part of a long clause and disagree with another, and so find Vote agreed to. ourselves on the horns of a dilemma in trying to decide whether to divide the Committee on PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSIONER. the clause. The hon. member for Albert found himself in that predicament only the Tlle PREMIER (Hon. W. Forgan Smith, I other day, as the Prem~er pointe~ out at the Mackay): move- time. I desire to avo1d that d1fficulty and '' That £8,586 be granted for 'Public it is advisable to emphasise our needs to the Service Commissioner.' '' Parliamentary Draftsman. It is easy enough to follow tl{e clause itself, but as I have JUr. COPLEY (Kurilpa) (5.9 p.m.): I explained, in Committee we may approve of realise that the present Public Service Com one principle in a clause and disapprove of missioner, :\fr. McCracken, has a very diffi another. cult task in having to follow in the footsteps of one of the greatest public servants ever lir. POWER (Baroona) (5.6 p.m.): I 1vas pleaseu to hear the Premier say that known in Queensland, Mr. J. D. Story, who our old esteemeil friend, Mr. Broadbent, was is still doing splenuid work for the Govern on the high road to recovery. He is a valued ment in an advisory capacity. Mr. ?>fcCracken public servant and one 1vho never spared him and his staff are the very essence of courtesy self in his efforts to give the utmost satis in their dealings with members of Parliament faction. He has discharged his office with anc1 others concerning matters associated with distinction. He has worked hard and long the public 'life of the State. Any information hours in helping members with various Bills. that is required is always promptly and cheer In ar1c1ition, he has associated himself with fully forthcoming from that office, and indeed variouR public bodies in this city, and I was the public service generally is more contented pleaseu indeeu to learn that he is well on at the present time than it has been for the way to recovery. I hope that it will not be long before he is back in his old position. some years. At the present time a system of inspections The Premier: Hear, hear! seems to be in use in which some of the officers employed have not the very special ~Ir. COPLEY (Kurilpa) (5.7 p.m.): I endorse the sentiments of the hon. member and technical knowledge required for the purpose. I realise it is very difficult some for Baroona. ::'lf'r. Broadbent is one of the times to get officers with the special know finest public senants we have had in Queens ledge required. For instance, an officer who land. I was in the public service :t'or many had never read the Public Curator Act and years, and I know that ::\Ir. Broadbent 's asso had no knowledge of it was asked to inspect ciation with Parliament and its various Com that office. Certainly he had an assistant mittees has always been valuable. I am glad who was to a degree an fait with the Act and indeed to know that he is on the road to all its ramifications. I understand, too, that recovery. the officer who inspected the 'l'itles Office had a considerable knowledge of survey work, I should also like to pay a tributp, to the whilst the other had special accountancy splendid qualities of the Assistant Parliamen qualifications. I should like to suggest to tary Draftsman, Mr. Seymour. He has dis the Public Service Commissioner that when played extraordinary zeal and keenness in his these inspections are being made, if possible, position, and he has endeavoured, to the officers possessing some special knowledge utmost of his capacity, to fill the position of the office concerned be appointed. I know temporarily vacated by Mr. Broadbent. He that the task is a very difficult one. I know, has worked very hard. too, that the Public Service Commissioner The Premier: He is a very nainstaking has a good deal of work to do in the very and capable officer. difficult time we are passing through. I realise, however, that in Mr. Fraser and his Jir. COPLEY: There is no doubt about other officers he has good officers to help him. that. l hope that Mr. Broadbent will soon With the knowledge they have of the service, return to his old post. The knowledge he which is known to me as a result of my imparted to Mr. Seymour has helped that association with the State Service Union, officer considerably in carrying out the duties they are in a better position to do the formerly discharged by himself. inspectorial work. Vote (Parliamentary Counsel and Drafts Vote (Public Service Commissioner) agreed man) agreed to. to.- 656 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply. PUBLIC SERVICE Sl:PERANNUATION BOARD. indifferent; but whether they redress or The PRRMIER (Hon. W. Forgan Smith, undress our speeches, we find very little to Mackay) : I move- complain of when our proofs come to us or when we read '' Hansard.'' " That £2,378 be granted for 'Public Service Superannuation Board.' " lUr. JUaher: Do you not think it would be better if they repressed some of them~ Vote agreed to. lUr. T. L. WILLIAlliS: I think so. Their work must be particularly difficult on STATE REPORTI~G BUREAU. occasions, because of the lack of cheerful The PREMIER (Hon. W. Forgan Smith, ness at times displayed in debate. As Victor Mackay): I move- Hugo said- '' That £13,309 he granted for 'State '' Cheerfulness is like money well Reporting Bureau.' '' · expended on charity; the more we dispense of it the greater our possession.'' Mr. COPLEY (Kurilpa) (5.13 p.m.): I want to pay tribute to the work that has been I remarked earlier in the day to the Leader of the Opposition, when he was discussing the ~one ?Y the State Reporting Bureau, not only m tlus House, but also in the law courts. war situation, that he was somewhat doleful. The old system of law-reporting that obtained We are seized of the significance of this war, prior to the establishment of this bureau left its implications, what is behind it, and what V81'y much to be desired, both by litigants is ahead of us; and I think it would help a great deal if we showed more cheerfulness. and ~he members of the legal profession. Certamly to-day the costs of litigation as a However, their job is well done by these result of the working of the bureau have been members of the State Reporting Bureau who Yery considerably reduced, while the work work in the gallery. The same measure of has been done much more efficiently and praise can be extended to the visiting expedition ;ly. journalists. I thank you, Mr. Chairman, for I should like to make a suggestion that the privilege of being able to refer to the "·hen money becomes more plentiful and an '' Hansard'' reporters on this vote. opportunity occurs to make it available, the bureau extends its operations to the major Vote (State Reporting Bureau) agreed to. lower courts in the metropolitan area. I STATE STORES BOARD. re~lise ~hat the cost of putting shorthand wn~ers mto eve:y clerk of petty sessions office, The PREMIER (Hon. W. Forgan Smith, or m ever~· pohce court in Queensland would Mackay) : I move- be prohibitive, but in the metropolit~n area " That £16,57 4 be granted for 'State t~1erc. is on occasions quite a deal of conges Stores Board.' '' tiOn m the courts, although the magistrates at the_ l?resent time are doing very good work lUr. MOORE (Aubigny) (5.19 p.m.): I expechtrously and thoroughly. 'l'he deposition should like to know if the State 8tores cl~rks under the old system of taking the Board is buying all the requirements of the c':rdence on the typewriter do wonderful work the hospitals throughout Queensland at the >nth the _n:ach~nes _at their disposal, but never present time. Is there a co-ordinated service theless hbg~twn rs held up and made more that buys its requirements through the State costly than rt need be under the more modern Stores Board~ I saw in the Press a while system. ago where some of the hospitals in Queens land had apparently joined as a co-operative Mr. T. L. WILLIAlUS (Port Curtis) movement for getting what they wanted. (5.15 p.m.): I should like to pay a sincere tribute to the work of the '' Hansard'' The Prem.'ier: It is not compulsory for reporters, particularly in respect to their them to do it through the States Stores work in this House. The fact that they do Board. A number of them asked us and if excellent work very often under extreme they ask us we do it. difficulty is, I think, recognised among lilr. MOO RE: Any hospital can? hon. members. The Premier: Yes, any public hospital. The CHAIRMAN: Order! I ask the hon. member to confine himself to making a Vote (State Stores Board) agreed to. passing reference, because some of the reporters are covered under this vote and MISCELLANEOUS SERVICES. some are not. The PREllfiER (Hon. W. Forgan Smith, Mr. T. L. WILLIAMS: I repeat that I Mackay) : I move- pay a sincere tribute to the work performed " That £27,873 be granted for 'Miscel by the '' Hansard'' staff in this House, often laneous Services. ' ' ' under very extreme difficulties. As one who has had some experience of journalistic work Mr. MAHER (West Moreton) (5.20 p.m.): -which included reporting-over a number I have previously emphasised in this Parlia of years, I know their task is not a very ment the need for a generous measure of light one; I appreciate the arduous nature support for the Queensland Art Gallery. of their work. It must be difficult for those However utilitarian our outlook may be, it "Hansard" reporters to sit there day after is important that we take into account the day recording our speeches, good, bad, or cultural side of Iife, and paintings give us Supply. [10 OCTOBER.] Supply. 657 a great deal of pleasure, particularly those of other Australian people-and I am one that in some way are representative of the of them-when he says- period in which we live. There are changes '' Art Gallery criticised. Australians not in each generation and it is the artist who well represented. portrays the conditions of the times that are especially valuable. It is important that '' 'Why does the gallery purchase over we should have such records. Paintings seas pictures, which, in my opinion, and executed in the 14th or 15th century give in the opinion of many others, are only us some idea of the types of people and the third-rate, in preference to first-rate conditions of life of that epoch. Australian pictures~' he said recently. 'J. J. Hilcler, one of Australia's best, who Mr. Duns tan: There are fine arts other was born in Too1voomba, is not represented. than painting. There is no representative picture of Jllr. MAHER: That is so, but we must aboriginal life by B. E. :Minus, yet Queens start somewhere and picture painting is land probably has more aborigines than looked upon as being important. I am now any other State. Max Meldrum is ranked speaking of oil paintings. in the South among the first three Australian artists, but the Quenslan-cl gallery The Premier: I prefer water colours has no specimen of his work.' myself. ''Other Australian artists whose work lUr. ~IAHER: There is need for the conlcl be acquired with advantage by the State to give some encouragement to Queensland gullery were: H. A. Hanke, Australian artists. There are many who Ernest Buckm<..ster, Sydney Long, .T ohn measure up to the highest world standards. D. Moo re, Doug 1as Dunclas, and Murray They have a particular value for us inas Griff en. much as at this early period of the develop ''Opportunities missed. ment of our country they record on canvas the types and conditions of our own time '' 'The purchase of Australian works of which can never be recovered once they ar~ art in Brisbane is left to a few private lost. Pictures portraying our pastoral and collectors,' said Mr. Cooper. 'Oppor farming life, our beautiful landscapes, tunities have been missed by the Queens aboriginals, and representative Australians of land gallery, and are being mip~ecl to-clay. our own race, will be of tremendous interest For instance, a picture of aboriginal life to future generations. The pictures in our by Minus, worthy of being hung in a Art Gallery are not sufficiently representative gallery, could have been bought not many of Australian artists. I recently read a years ago for 15 or 20 guineas. To-clay criticism by Mr. John Cooper, an art dealer the same picture would cost not less than from Sydney. 50 guineas.' '' The Premier: He was an art dealer? The Premier: I have two of Sydney Long's myself. llir. lllAHER: Yes, but that does not necessarily mean that his cri tic ism would be ~Ir. MAHER: Of course, I recognise that animated by bias. No doubt, Mr. Cooper we have oniy a limited space for the display would act as an agent for paintings from of these pictures in our Art Gallery, but European countries. nevertheless, I think we should not overlook the fact that we have artists of good stand The Premier: The Government do not ing in Australia who are depicting scenes buy any pictures from European countries. of our past and present-clay life, and painting Mr. MAHER: They are probably bought typical aboriginal and even types of our from Great Britain anrl I think that is own white generation. These are things worth regarded as a European cJuntry. spending money on each year, in order that we may add to our existing stock. Moreover, The Premler: We do not buy any we should be giving patronage to Australian pictures there. artists as well as obtaining a permanent record in our gallery of works of art. ~Ir. ~IAHER: According to the informa tion I have here, some pictures were bought. Whilst I am on my feet, I might as well make reference to the expenditure on the The Premier: You have the wrong idea. Royal Commission on Public Works. It is lUr. lliAHER: Mr. Colclough, the secre regretted that its recommendations have not tary of the Art Gallery trustees, says that been implemented. I made this criticism the purchases that Mr. Cooper had described when speaking to the Financial Statement, as third-rate were bargains obtained in but unfortunately the Treasurer, when reply Scotland and had been described by a visit ing, walked around the issue. He did not ing artist, Mr. Rowell, as a good investment. reply to my comment that quite a number of He says that they were painted by Scottish royal commissions had been appointed since academicians. Despite what the Premier has the Forgan Smith Government took office said, the secretary of the trustees states eight years ago, but their reports had not that the Government c1ic1 buy some Scottish been acted upon by the Government. pictures. I am not objecting to the purchase of those pictures, but I am asking that some The Premier: What you say is not thought should be given to what Mr. Cooper correct. says, because, after all, whether he is an Mr. MAHER: I will mention the commis art dealer or not, he expresses the opinion sions. There was the royal commission that 658 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply. inquire{! into the North-Western railway, con the Opposition made about pictures from Scot cerning which nothing has been done, despite land has nothing to do with me. I have never the fact that the report was a favourable one. bought any pictures for the Art Gallery. N a thing has been done in connection with the report of Mr. Hooper on railway improve Mr. Maher: I said that: jocularly. ments. The PREMIER: I have never bought any The Premier: Quite a lot has been done. pictures for the Art Gallery, although I may be as capable of doing so as many who have. Mr. MAHER: Mr. Hooper's report- Mr. lUoore: Those pictures have been Tb,e CHAIRMAN: Order! The only there for years and years. royal commission the hon. gentleman can discuss on this vote is the Royal Commission The PREMIER: Of course they have. on Public Works. It is the only commission The Leader of the Opposition was off his whose expenses are voted under ' ' Chief Secre ground in his remarks. There are quite a tary-Miscellaneous Services.'' lot of things that both of us do not know. Mr. MAHER: That is the one I am refer 2Ur. lUacdonald: That is one thing you ring to. have in common. The CHAIRMAN: I am afraid the hon. Tlie PRElUIER: I do not know what the gentleman is going outside it. hon. member means. I repeat that the Mr. MAHER: The Royal Commission on Government do not buy the pictures; that is Public W arks made recommendations relating a duty that devohes upon the trustees. to the construction of the Blackali-Charleville There is as much difference of opinion on link and the route from Wandoan to Taroom. art amongst artists as there is difference of Tho~e were important recommendations. The opinion on Bills in this Chamber. Certain commission cost a great deal of money, but, so connoisseurs will stand back ancl strike various far, we have had no intimation from the poses and lay down the laws of art; they may Government or their spokesmen whether those be right and they may be wrong. I agree important recommendations are likely to be with the Leacler of the Opposition that the given serious thought. It is necessary in these Queensland Art Gallery should be representa times to provide work for men, and I have tive of Australian art and Queensland art. always agreed that one of the most useful HoweYer, art in its proper sense transcends forms of work that could be given wouJ.d be all national boundaries, and it would be to connect the two big railway systems, that foolish to say that an art gallery should not from Brisbane to Charleville on the one hand, exhibit any pictures that were valuable and and Rockhampton to Longreach on the other. available to it. I have seen pictures in Italy Just where the link is to be made is a matter and }'ranee that were beyond value. Should for the Government to decide, with the help we exclude pictures from the Queensland Art of the report. Although it might not be Gallery because they were painted in Italy, immediately productive in pou~ds,, shillings, Prance, or some other country? and pence, it would be reproductiVe m the help it would give to our wool and cattle industries. lUr. lUal!er: No. Furthermore, it would greatly stimulate closer settlement. That is· a thing upon which mone:y: Tlle PUKUIER: It would be foolish to advance such an argument. I know that the could well be expended. trustees in Queensland are doing a very good The Premier: You had better deal with job with very little funds. It is easy to the matter on the Railway votes. criticise and to say what might be done, but having regard to the money at their disposal llrr. ~IAHER: Yes. I will deal with it the C~ueensland trustees are making a pretty again. good job of the duty entrusted to them. It. is The Premier: This vote only provides quite easy to throw bricks at people who giVe for the exp<'nses of the commission. a service of this kind for nothing. When funds and space are limited it is much easier Mr. JUAHER.: I make my comments now, to criticise than to pass compliments. Some while I have the ear of the Premier. Perhaps, of our critics of the Art Gallery lose sight when the R-ailway votes come up, the Premier of the fact that some of the pictures exhibited might not be here. I take this opportunity of in the Art Gallery have been Ien t to it or firing my shot when the Premier is present. have been gifts. The link woul·d give employment, and help with the progressive development of the State. It is entirely wrong to say that no notice is If the Raihvay Estimates come up for con taken by the Government of reports by royal sideration, I shall be happy to deal with the commissions. The Government introduced a matter again. Bill based on the findings of the Royal Com mission into the Dairying Industry, and they also introduced a Bill to implement the The PREMIER (Hon. W. Forgan Smith, decisions of the Royal Commission on Racing Mackay) (5.35 p.m.): The management of and Betting. The same can be said with the.Queensland National Art Gallery is in the regard to the royal commissions on Transport, hands of trustees, and it cannot by any means Electricity, and the Sugar Peaks and Cognate be regarded as a S'tate activity. The State Matters. Bills have been brought in based on does not buy pictures for the trustees nor has the reports. The report of Mr. Hooper, the it done so, and the reference the Leader of Royal Commission on Railways, has been Supply. [10 OCTOBER.] Supply. 659 made use of very extensively by the Railway I would like to ask a question about the Department. grant of £500 to the trustees, N ewstead House. I understand that is a subsidy to Mr. Yeates: We have never had any the Historical Society, or N ewstead House, recommendations in here. and that it is to extend over a period of three The PRElUIER: The hon. member for years, making £1,500 in all. The position of East Toowoomba reminds me of some lines the Historical Society does not seem to me to be quite clear. Apparently it is the trustees from Goldsmith- of Newstead House-of the building-who '' And still they gaz 'd, and still the are getting this grant of £500 a year. They wonder grew, employ a part-time secretary. Then the com mittee of the Historical Society uses Newstead That one small head could carry all he House for the housing of various historical knew.'' records and exhibits. The hon. member for East Toowoomba poses Whether there is a connection between the as an expert on everything under the sun. trustees of Newstead House and the Historical He acts as official adviser to the Commissioner Society, and whether they work in co-upera for Raihvays and the general manager of tion or entirely independently of each other, water and sewerage equally, and his know I have not been able to find out. Apparently, ledge, judged by his own standards, are very there is some lack of co-operation, because extensive. the Historical Society, judging by its annual The report of the royal commiSSIOn in report, does not appear to have a paid secre regard to the railways particularly men tary, but the trustees of Newstead House tioned by the Leader of the Opposition is not apparently have a part-time secretary. I was by any means being lost sight of. wondering whether it >vould be possible to constitute one committee of the trustees and Mr. I\IOORE (Aubigny) (5.42 p.m.): As the Historical Society. The Lord Mayor of the Premier said, it is very easy to criticise. Brisbane, whoever he may be, is a member, and, I think, the Treasurer of the State is The trustees of the Art Gallery are very another. unfortunately situated as to the money they have to spend. They are enthusiastic and try Tile Premier: A Bill was put through to help art in every way. I quite agree that last session. art has no national boundaries, and that its Mr. ~IOORE: But the society is not the educational value is extensive. We should trustees of the building. 'The trustees of the endeaYour to get the very best examples of building are a separate organisation to the art we can for the money available no matter committee of the Historical Society that is where they come from, but criticism has using it. I >vant to know if the Premier J::.as always been levelled at art purchases any information as to the connection between whcreYer they are made. The trustees of the the two, and whether they cannot be com Melbourne Art Gallery are in a very secure bined in some way, so that the Historical position by reason of the Felton bequest Society, >Yhich is really caring for the exhibits, they have a large amount of money to spend may also be the trustees. every year-but I have never known the pictures bought under the Felton bequest to The Premier: We have been trying to receive universal approval. bring about a marriage of that nature for a long time. The Premier: Some very bitter letters have been written on them. I\Ir. MO ORE: I was trying to find out what the position was. It seems to me a :iUr. JUOORE: Nearly every purchase has peculiar position that we should have two been condemned by some art critics. Every sets uf people who are interested in the one possible fault has been magnified to a con building, but, apparently, not working siderable degree. No-one seems to agree with together as they should. them. The Melbourne gallery is extraordin arily well situated because of that bequest, I think about £1,200 has been expended on and has succeeded in getting some excellent repairs to Newstead House. It occupies a pictures. Sometimes we in Queensland enjoy >vonderful situation-! suppose one of the the advantage of having an exhibition of pic picked situations of Brisbane-and it is a very tures on loan from Victoria and New South appropriate home for the Historical Society's Wales, but difficulty has arisen in obtaining records and exhibits. The society is an a proper place for the exhibition. There has enthusiastic body, and it has an immensely been such a difficulty at the City Hall in valuable collection. respect of pictures on loan that are likely to The Government have been good enough to arrive quite soon, but I am glad to say it spend a certain amount of money on repairs, is likely to be solved. so there shoul·d not be the risk that attached to the building in its original state in the The Premier: I think it is solved for the moment. housing of a large number of these records. They are very valuable, because many of them lUr. lUOORE: It will be solved. Such are irreplaceable, and the enthusiastic people a difficulty could not be allowed to interfere on the committee-I understand the Treasurer with an exhibition of such educational value. is one of them-recognise that a collection of Some of the pictures are coming here under this sort will be uf immense value to Queens an agreement made some years ago. land later on. 660 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply. The Premier may be able to give some without discovering shortages and the neces information as to the possibility of securing sary '' O.K.'' returns have been sent. to the complete co-operation or the amalgamation of proper authorities. Consideration should be the trustees of the building and the society, given to extending the work of the Auditor so that we may make the best possible use General's Department to auditing at least of the grant provided in this vote. It seems some of the trust moneys held by solicit,ors a pity there should be, not antagonism, but and other bodies required by law to keep any divergence of opinion between the two trust accounts. I think the funds that are bodies. available to coYer any defalcations would be conserved and the public would be protected The PREMIER (Hon. W. Forgan Smith, to a greater extent if this were done. Mackay) (5.49 p.m.): So far as one can diminish the divergence of opinion, I am Vote (Auditor-General) agreed to. informed that it has been done. The Brisbane City Council, in conjunction TRUST AND SPECIAL FUNDS. with the Government, agreed to restore New PUBLIC SERVICE SUPERANNUATION FUND. stead House, and put it into proper condition, The PREMIER (Hon. W. Forgan Smith, so that it could house adequately and safely :Mackay): I move- the historical records of this State, so far· as they are available. That work has been done, '' That £62,000 be granted for 'Public these two authorities bearing the cost. Service Superannuation Fund.' '' The amount we shall grant for the main Vote agreed to. tenance and upkeep of N ewstead House this year is £300. Another £200 is granted for the CHIEF SECRETARY; STATE ELECTRICITY Historical Society for the secretary, who is COMMISSION. cataloguing and properly caring for the docu ments belonging to the society housed in this The PRElUIER (Hon. W. Forgan Smith, building. In other words, there is a division ::\Iackay) : I move- of the £500; the persons concerned say that '' That £14 100 be granted for 'Chief is quite satisfactory. Secretary-St~te Blectricity Commission.''' lUr. YEATES (East Toowoomba) (5.51 li'Ir. MAHER (West Morecon) (5.52 p.m.): p.m.) : The Leader of the Opposition referred I am pleased to see this new departure by the to an exhibition of pictures by l\Ir. Cooper. Premier. I also visited that exhibition and although the National Art Gallery is not a department The Premier: No. of the Government, I think that the Govern lUr. MAHER: It is not the practice to ment could influence the trustees to buy some discuss the Trust and Special Fund Estimates of those very good pictures. In a proud city for each department after its Revenue Esti such as this, the capital of Queensland, £700 mates have been dealt with. is little enough to grant to the National Art Gallery. The Premier: I will withdraw it if you like. I suggest that the Treasurer see that the allowance to the Lieutenant-Governor is raised lUr. MAHER: 1No, I say I am very to not less than £850. I should prefer £1,000. pleased. I do not look upon this position as merely Tile Premier: This is not to be regarded that of an extra Governor. The occupant was as a precedent. formerly Chief Justice of the State, and as such should be compensated in a proper way. lUr. MAHER: That takes away some of its pleasure. I thought the Premier had acted The vote also includes £1,000 for expenses on the suggestion I made the other day. of civil emergency operations. I should like to have some explanation on that, and as to Tile Premier: No, this is not che sugges the amount of £8,350 for the benefit of tion you made. Your suggestion involved an returned soldiers. amendment of the Standing Orders, and I said I was willing to discuss that with you, Vote (Miscellaneous Services) agreed to. but you have not. attempted to discuss it >vith me yet. AUDITOR~GENERAL. Mr. MAHER: I will certainly discuss The PREMIER (Hon. W. Forgan Smith, it with the Premier. I thought he was Mackay) : I move- making the way easy by agreeing to it. So '' That £26,202 be granted for 'Auditor far as I know, there is nothing in the General.' '' Standing Orders to prevent this vote from being discussed; only the Chairman's ruling Mr. COPLEY (Kurilpa) (5.54 p.m.): The has prevented it in the past. present system of auditing of solicitors' trust The Premier: I can take all my Esti accounts is unsatisfactory. Audits sometimes mates right through, if I so desire. are made when solicitors are almost in extremis and are not able to carry on and ltir. MAHER: At any rate, I am very satisfactory certificates are given. Defalca glad that the Premier has decided on this tions have been occurring over a number of course, and I shall certainly talk with him years, although these audits have been made npon the subject of having it established as a Supply. [10 OcTOBER.] Supply. 661 precedent that we can discuss with the Chief reflects great credit on the present Adminis Office Vote the Trust and Special Funds tration that they saw fit to implement the Es.timates. This is a move in the right recommendations of that commission. I have, direction, especially with the Treasurer's since my election to this Pa.rliament, as votes, because a tremendous loan vote is set representative of the constituency of Too down in his Estimates. 'l'his is of special woomba, watched with a great deal of importance to the State, and no-one can say interest and satisfaction the work of the that we are properly discussing the Estimates chairman of the State Electricity Commission. unless we are able to deal with Loan Fun·ds. I was particularly pleased when his valuable However, I content myself at this stage with services to the State were recognised by the saying I am glad that the Premier has agreed Premier in appointing him to the responsible np to this point, at any rate, to this departur~ offiee of chairman of the State Electricity from the usual order of things. Commission. Mr. NIMJUO (Oxley) (7.15 p.m.): I Government Members: Hear, hear! should like to congratulate the chairman of lUr. DUGGAN: That confidence has been the State Electricity Commission on the way more than justified, because during the short in which he has brought the various electric time the Commission has been in operation supply companies into line. That big under a good deal of planning and co-ordinating taking has been carried out with very little work ha~ been done by it with very little friction, indeed a creditable achievement. friction indeed. 'fhat speaks volumes for The Ipswich Electric Supply Company has the efficiency of the Commission and the tact been taken over and the City Electric Light of the chairman in negotiating, with the Company Limited is now operating as one assistance of the Premier, some intricate company. The taking over of the Southport iinancial transactions with the companies company also reflects great credit on the concerned. I have not very much to say on chairman of the Commission. this vote except that electricity plays a very lUr. Power: All his work reflects credit important part in the development of this on him. State. lUr. NilUMO: Yes, that is so. Those of lUr. Plunkett: At a price. us who go to Southport for holidays realise lUr. DUGGAN: Everything has to be paid the benefit from the change. Gympie has for at a price. The report of the Royal also bren brought in and generally speaking Commission on Electricity disclosed a chaotic the scheme seems to be working for the condition in Queensland in connection with benefit of the people. electricity undertakings. If my memory What I really rose to speak about was the serves me right, I think the commission item appearing in this vote for the Hydro reported that there were about 62 under Electricity Investigation, North Queensland. takings in the State, of which 51 operated Last year £1,000 was appropriated under this their own generating stations, and the heading and that sum has been reduced to evidence available suggests that it is in the £900 for the present year. I understand that best interests of the public that there should the electricity undertaking at the Barron be a reduction in the number of such enter Falls has not turned out as satisfactorily as prises and that where more than a required desired. number are operating within a community some co-ordinating authority should be The Premier: That is not so. empowered to bring about a better distri Mr. NUBIO: I am glad to hear the bution of electricity with the resultant Premier say that. I heard that it was more increase of development at a lessened cost to costly than previous methods of generating the community. The State Electricity Com electricity. I am seeking information. Is mission has been carrying out that work. it proposed to harness the Tully Falls or I noticed in Toowoomba, with which I am embark on some other project? particularly familiar, that at one stage con I hope if any scheme is proceeded with siderable criticism was levelled at the Com that it will be submitted for the approval mission, because its policy has been to insist of the House before it is gone on with, upon inspections of electrical equipment to because such schemes might involve the see that the installation was up to the expenditure of a great deal of money. If required standard. The Commission was able the Cairns undertaking is a profitable one to demonstrate to the satisfaction of the and the people are getting electricity at the consumers that some action along these lines cheapest rate, well and good; if they are was necessary. When we read in the last not I should be pleased to hear the Premier report of the Commission that there were tell us so. 126 accidents through electricity for the year 1938-39, 11 of which were fatal, we recognise JUr. DUGGAN (Toowoomba) (7.18 p.m.): the need for some such supervision. Some During the Budget debate the Leader of the people appear to overlook the fact that Opposition directed considerable criticism electrical !installations and appliances against the Government because of their deteriorate very quickly and are a potential alleged failure to implement the recommen source of danger to the users, but since the dations of royal commissions. One of the consumers have been reassured on the point royal commissions appointed by this Gov and convinced that the object of the Com ernment was that which inquired into the mission is only safety, a spirit of eo-opera· electricity problem in this State. I think it tion has been forthcoming. 662 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply. The Commission has also insisted by regu current to the consumer. It may be said that lation upon a higher standard for electrical the profit now being made on these appliances appliances. The Electrical Appliances is not excessive. That may also be true. The Approval Regulations made under the Electric electricity undertakings might, however, sell Light and Power Act Amendment Act these articles at cost price to encourage their provided that the appliances should conform installation and consequently increase the use to the standards prescribed by the Australian of electricity. Standards Association, but unfortunately, lUr. R.ussell: W11at about dead stock there has not been the degree of reciprocity from the introduction of new models. on the part of the other States that is essential in this connection. However, that Mr. DUGGAN: I a.m allowing for all Act has been of great value indeed, because those things. No doubt, no industry has made in introducing it the Premier mentioned such research in to these articles as the elec that it had been the practice of Southern trical industry. Basically, I do not think manufacturers to dump inferior articles on there is much nee·d for changing models so far the Queensland market. So that in that as refrigerators are concerned. Each yea1· a connection, too, the Electricity Commission new model is announced, consisting mostly of has done a very valuable service to the people an article ·of a different colour, with a new of Queensland. kind of handle, and, perhaps, interior lights. The improvements are of no consequence. Unfortunately, it was not possible for the Nevertheless, increased sums are demanded report of the State Electricity Commission for extensions of plant to produce these new for the financial year ended June, 1940, to models. The savings effected by standardisa be presented to Parliament in time for this tion would probably enable a reduction in the discussion. One problem that has confronted price of electricial appliances to be made. the Commission, and one to which it has given attention is the shortage of copper 'l'he State Electricity Commission has done cable, but I noted with satisfaction and immensely valuable work for Queensland. I gratification that it has been able to buy am happy to note that negotiations have been enough copper cable to permit of the con completed that will enable an intensive rural struction of the transmission line to Cooby electrification scheme to be proceeded with. I Creek to enable the required power to be note with interest that, in the Gatton district, made available for the pumping of water represented by the Leader of the Opposition, from Cooby Creek to Toowoomba. There is increased numbers of pumping electrical an acute shortage of copper cable and equipment have been installed for irrigation although I do not know the actual figures projects. All these things will increase the I understand that the ordinarv normal production in that district and the wealth of requirements in copper cable in "Australia the State. are about 24,000 tons per annum, but that war needs have increased the demand to 'The State Electricity Commission, in its last report, disclosed that a saving of £35,000 h·ad 40,00.0 tons. 1 Those figures indicate that there is a senous shortage of this essential been made by a reduction in the tariffs. All equipment, but no doubt there are many these things have been accomplished without factors associated with it. any grave disturbance of shareholders' rights. There is one matter that I should like the The whole policy of the Commission is State Electricity Commission to consider and working particularly towards the ultimate that is to see if it is not possible to reduce ideal of public ownership of this public utility. the cost of electric appliances to permit of We rea·d that each year certain things have their more extensive installation for domestic been accomplished by planned development. use. Unfortunately, the cost of an electric For that reason, the Commission is deserving ally-equipped kitchen is quite beyond the of our congratulations, and the Government is capacity of the ordinary householder. I to be commended for their decision to bring think in Queensland we all admit that the into being this enterprise, vYhich is being conducted so soundly in the interests of use o~ refrigeration is not a luxury, but a necessity. Queensland. Honourable Members: Hear, hear! Mr. R.USSELL (Hamilton) (7.18 p.m.): I have always been in accord with the constitu Mr. DUGGAN: The cost of a refrigera tion uf the State Electricity Commission, tor at £55 to £60-- because I believe that a public utility of this Mr. Maber: Too much. nature should be controlled in the inte1:ests of the public. In fact, in the early days I was Mr. DUGGAN: Is far too great for the interested, Y:ith others, in a movement to ordinary householder. control the supply of electricity in the city of Br:~bane by the citizens of Brisbane. That Mr. Maher: Hear, hear! was long before the Premier thought o E the Mr. DUGGAN: The same remarks apply State Electricity Commission. to electric stoves. If those who operate T1Ie Prem!er: You must have been a electric enterprises made some arrangement Socialist at that time. with the manufacturers of these articles, with a view to their being supplied to the consumer Mr. R.USSELL: I was not a: Socialist. It at a lower cost, there would be a much grea.ter is common sense that all these public utilities use of electricity. As a result it might be should be controlled by the people. No-one possible to make a reduction in the price of should have a monopoly of light and air. Supply. [10 OCTOBER.] Supply. 663 But, wliile I am in accord with the appuint· Mr. RUSSELL: What is it but repudia ment of the Commission, I feel in duty bound tion~ to call attention to what has aetually hap· Tl1e Premier: It is not repudiation. pened to the shareholders of the City Electric Light Company. This Commission was Mr. RUSSELL: Deliberately reducing appointed in 1937, and, in conformity with the the value of the shares. Electric Light and Power Acts Amendment The PRElUIER: I rise to two points of Act of 1934, it was authorised to enter into order. Firstly, is the hon. member in order agreement with the company for tha supply of in accusing the Government of confiscation electricity in the South-Eastern division. and repudiation in regard to a Bill that was Several franchises held by the rompany were carried without division in this House; to be consolidated. secondly, is he entitled to discuss a Bill that When the Bill of 1934 was going through was passed in 1938 under the heading of this the House, there was great opposition to it, estimate~ not because we did not believe in the con· The CHAIRMAN: I ask the hon. solidation of the franchise or the granting of member for Hamilton to withdraw the words control of the supply of electric light and ''confiscation'' and ''repudiation'' in regard power to the Commission; but because we to the Bill. I ask the hon. member not objected to the scurvy way in which the share· tc, discuss the Bill of 1938 in dealing with holders were treated by the Government. To this vote. our way of thinking, it savoured of repudia· }fr. RUSSELL: I am not dealing with tion. What ·we said then is altogether true. any Bill of 1938. The agreement has turned out all right for The CHAIRMAN: I ask the hon. the original shareholders of the company who member not to discuss any legislation passed are content to draw the 5~ per cent. they are prior to to-day. getting to-day on their holdings, which cost them 20s. a share; but as you know, for a lUr. RUSSELL: Very well, I withdraw period of years investment in the shares of the words ''confiscation'' and ''repudiation.'' I say that the action of the Government in the City Electric 'Light Company was looked that instance was highy reprehensible. We upon as a gilt-edged security for the invest· called attention to it in 1934. I contend that ment of trustees' money; and thousands of under this vote I am entitled to refer to the very small shareholders invested their loose Act that constituted the Electricity Commis· capital in this undertaking. In one instance, sion; otherwise, what other chance have I shares rose to as high as 32s. 6d. and a num· of referring to the Commission~ ber of shares were bought around 29s. and 30s. on a aividend of 7~ and 8 per cent. The Commission is working under an Act There "\Vas a good return for the invested of 1937 and not 1938. As a result of this capital with a dividend of H per cent. The legislation, which is re~ponsible for the con· returns of those shareholders who bought stitntion of this Commission, a certain agree shares for 30s. each was 5 per cent., which ment has been put into effect between the was looked on as a very decent return for Commission and the company. I am not what they regarded as gilt-edged security. blaming the Commission. I think the Com· mission is doing good work, but the agreement \Vhat has happened is that the company is itself created a great hardship on small precluded from paying dividends on the shareholders who invested their meagre ordinary shares in excess of 2 per cent: above sa:vings in what was then looked upon as a the rate allowed on Commonwealth stock. fairly decent investment., and instead of That gives them 5~ per cent. Now 5~ per getting at least 5 per cent. net on their cent. return on shares costing 30s. each which investments, they are now getting only from I think was a fair value for a great nur~ber of 3:l; to n per cent. That has been the effect years paid to small investors, gives an effective of the lcgis,lation, and I certainly do object return of about 3~ per cent. If the next to this class legislation. Whereas I agree in dividend is to be based on the rate paid on the mnin that all public utilities should be Commonwealth stock, it means that the return controlled by the public, in the act of trans· to these unfortunate shareholders who have ferring control from private individuals to paid 30s. will not be more than about £3 the State, the rights of the people who have 6s. Sd. per cent. I do not think that is a their money invested should be fully protected, fair return for an investment of this sort. not only those who were the original investors, It is not actually gilt-edged because this but those who afterwards invested money in m1dertaking is subject to varying conditions. the undertaking. The ~hole system might go out of date, and there 1s no guarantee that the company would The PREMIER (Hon. W. Forgan Smith, be able to earn sufficient money to pay even Mackay) (7.37 p.m.): From the remarks 5:l; or 5* per cent. But the main point is made by the hon. member who has just this: the Government deliberately confi·scated resumed his seat, it is evident he is repre· the holding of these small shareholders. sentative of predatory capitalism. The Premier: That is not true. Mr. Russell: I want a fair deal, that is all. Mr. RUSSELL: Who looked upon this investment-- The PREMIER: He argues that in the terms of the agreement between the company The Premier: That is not true. and the Electricity Commission, the value 664 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply. that should be taken into account is not the a fair dC'al between the investor and the user value of the assets of the company, but the of electricity. vVe have seen to all those Stock Exchange value as at the time. things. JUr. Russell: The shares were worth The most extraordinary outburst I have 30s. in the franchise. heard in this Parliament -for years was that just made by the hon. member for Hamilton. The PREMIER: That is absolutely He must hold a special brief. I am ridiculous. astounded at the intemperance of the Mr. Russell: It is not ridiculous. language used by the hon. member for Hamil ton. Evidently he holds that the interests The PREl\IIER: If you take up tl1e of the speculator on the Stock Exchange case from the point of view of predatory transcend those of the legitimate investor or eapitalism, of course your case is correct from consumer. I do not agree. I repeat that that standpoint, but from the point of view the franchises were consolidated over an {)f public interest this agreement bet>Yeen the extended area for a period of years. That Electricity Commission and the company was was done because then the company would fair. It was accepted by the company. I do have an opportunity of reticulating various not know to what extent the hon. member areas and investing further capital, as well is a shareholder, but I noticed he spoke very as providing the people \vith a service at a feelingly on the matter. As Chief Secretary, reasonable price. I had a number of interviews with the com pany, and their legal advisers, who were very There was no other way of gwmg that capable men, did not make use of the extra service. The franchise extends to the New South vagant language used by the hon. member Wales border up to Gympie and out to Too for Hamilton. As a matter of fact, both the woomba. As the areas become reticulated company and the Government thought it was they get an advantage. If a whole host of a fair and just agreement, and an agreement different companies or local authorities were in the public interest. operating over a given area, they could not give to that area the advantage that haH \Ve have to consider first of all: what was accrued from this consolidation. The prin the company that made the agreement~ It ciple is economically sound, especially when held a number of different franchises, extend applied to electricity, because if a large con ing over varying periods of time. All these cern is serving a great number of consumers franchises were amalgamated and the period who take a big load of electricity regularly of 15 years substituted for the varying period. the average cost to the company naturally A new franchise for that period was given. becomes less. The more electricity the com That, in itself, was a Yery big asset to the pany sells the cheaper it can sell it. That company. If such a franchise was put up is obvious, assuming always that the company for public tender it would represent a con has efficient machinery and efficient manage· siderable sum of money, because, after all, ment. this company is completely free of competi tion during that period. To a certain extent, I hesitate to think of what the position under the Order in Council, and the terms would be over the next 10 years in the areas and conditions of the agreement, its rate of between Gympie and Brisbane and Brisbane dividend is protected. In other words, it is and Southport if this Act had not been in the nature of a guaranteed business, and passed. I have studied the problem of elec tricity from the time when I was Secretary its shareholders are in the category of people who invest in gilt-edged securities. for Public Works. The greatest difficulty has been to arrive at an equitable basis upon They are entitled to a return of 2 per which existing small concerns could be taken cent. in excess of the return on Common over. It is obvious that small undertakings wealth cash or conversion loans from time to had to get a high price for their electricity. time of Commonwealth Loan Council stock. 'rhe butchering business is a good illustration What could be fairer or more equitable than of my argument. A butcher who is selling that~ If people care to deal in shares as dis only one carcass a week is not in the same tinct from investing in them-and there is a favourable position as the man who has a very great difference between dealing in shares weekly turnover of lOO carcasses. The same and investing in them; in fact as great a argument applies to every other form of difference as that between the land jobber commercial enterprise. and the farmer-then they must be subject Take a sugar mill. It might have to crush to all the market risks. If a man buys shares in any undertaking he may lose c-onsiderably; 60,000 tons of cane before it started to make he may lose everything. He may gain con profits. In many cases, 60,000 tons is the siderably. The value of shares may li1crease. point at which it begins to make a profit. Dividends may increase. That is all profit And so it is with a power station. The con to him, and he generally sells on what be ception set out in the Act was the conception believes to be a rising market. of a large area supplied by one concern under a consolidated franchise, and, in return for That, of course, is entirely different from that consolidated franchise, it was called upon the State Electricity Commission's agree to agree to a :fixed dividend rate. What is ment. We are not concerned with the wrong with a fixed dividend rate when you gambler on the Stock Exchange. We are grant a monopoly within a given area~ You not concerned with inflated values; we are grant freedom from competition, and the only concerned with the public interest, the price is :fixed on a net return to the investor real value of the assets of the company, and of 2 per cent. above gilt-edged security. The Supply. (10 OCTOBER.] Supply. 665 proposition put up by the hon. member for When the Commission was first appointed, Hamilton is unconscionable, and no member of quite a number of people hesitated to embrace the company in negotiation with the Stat·a the new system of electrical control, but now Electricity Commission or with me was ever that it has been in operation since 1938, and guilty of making the suggestion contained in has proved to be such a distinct success, it is the speech delivered by the hon. member for gaining in public esteem and public confidence Hamilton. all over the State. There are many areas 'in The State Electricity Commission has been Southern Queensland not yet touched by the a huge success. The consolidated area becomes Commission, and requests have b·een received a greater success each year, because, as areas from local authorities for joint schemes within are reticulated, as pointed out by the hon. their areas. That has been made possible member for Toowoomba, settlers are able to only as the result of the State Electricity use irrigation it was not possible to use before, Commission Act. The hon. member for Too and to do so at a low cost. Electricity will woomba hit the mark when he gave an indica be available in areas that would not have tion of the extent 'Of the increased use of been reticulated for many years to come. electric energy, and in furtherance of what Nobody could have afforded to supply a plant he said it is very interesting to know that, to supply only a small demand. That is for the 12 months ended December, 1938, obvious to everyone. the number of units sokl was 180,251,914. A year later this had increased by 21,896,807. No-one that I know of interested in the For the year ended De~ember, ] 935, the year company, or connected with any of these preceding the investigation by the Royal public utilities, has made the audacious claims Commission on Electricity, the number of set out in the hon. member for Hamilton's units consumed was 106,420,927. In four speech. I do not think he will get anyone to years sales have increased by 95,727,794 units, agree to a proposition, as an economic prin or by 89.95 per cent. Those figures indicate ciple, that the basis of purchase should be on the public benefit to be derived from the the basis of the value at a given date on the present system of controlling electricity under Stock Exchange of any security. That is not takings. the basis of a valuation in the public interest. It might be a go·od tl1ing for those who own Furthermore, the interest taken by the Com inflated capital. mission in the control of electrical appliances has been the cause of greater use of them in To pursue his argument a little further, if private households. More of them are now the value of shares increased by 100 per cent., being sold for domestic use, and thus the then, according to the Leader of the United arduous and slogging nature of a good deal of Australia Party, we should pay twice the value housework has been eliminated. of the physical assets of the company. If they incrensed by 200 per cent., the price increases A further important point was made by the accordingly. That is a good line of reasoning hon. member for Toowoomba, and it is one to show the nbsurdity of the argument, if y0u that cannot be over-estimated. The standard carry it to the extreme. There are companies of electrical appliances insisted upon in whose shares are worth 20 times what the Queensland is a necessary safeguard in the original value would be. Would it be fair, in interests of human life. Hon. members should the public interest, to pay 20 times the value know that in Victoria and New South \Vales, of the physical assets of such a company, plus particularly in Sydney and Melbourne, there goodwill~ Surely not. As a matter of fact, is in operation a wry rigid standard in regard to put forward any such condition would have to electrical appliances. prevented anything from being ·done in the l\Ir. Dart: So there should be. development of electricity. It would have prevented, possibly, all those remote areas, The PRElUIER: I agree. Prior to thae thinly populated compared with a city, from regulation and control appliances that could getting a sound electricity supply at all. not be solcl under the laws of Victoria and X ew South Wales were dumped in Queensland The State Electricity Commission has car and openly displayed in the shops in Bris ried out its work very successfully. The bane. When it is remembered that electrical total estimated capital expenditure by all appliances are subject to rapid deterioration, electric authorities, private and local authorit,1·, reviewed and approved by the Com particularly when they are not being used, the mission last year was £883,562, of which clanger to people who buy them later on and £656,090 m1s undertaken by private authori put them into use becomes immeasurably ties and £227,472 by local authorities. This greater. capital expenditure has been of considerable The Act has been a distinct success. The public benefit. further electricity extends its operations the As a result of greater efficiency and lower more it is appreciated. Its use will continue production costs, the Commission has been to grow as time goes on. I repeat that the able to anange with electric authorities for fixed dividend rate to the company under the tariff reductions amounting to £32,800 in agreement is 2 per cent. above the return respect of the year just concluded. That on Commonwealth bonds. The period is 15 amount represents a big saving in one year, years. There is power under certain condi and that is apart from the tariff reductions tions at the end of that period of 15 years that have been effected in the area taken over for the State to acquire the undertaking, and by the City Electric Light Company in its the terms and conditions of acquirement are consolidated area. set out in the agreement. In making that 666 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply. agreement, which was a very big undertaking ''The conference discussed the economi -one of the biggest of its kind carried out cal aspects of the proposal, and deduced in Queensland for many years-none of the that mutual advantages would accrue if the difficulties outlined in the speech of the hon. undertakings were interlocked in the member for Hamilton resulted. It is rather manner indicated and on the terms stated. a good thing both for the people of Queens The strengthening of the existing services land and for the company itself that such an will facilitate expansion, improvement, and unconscionable attitude was not taken up as dependability. was displayed here by the hon. member. ''The J ohnstone Electric Authority and In regard to the questions asked by the the Hydro-Electricity Board are appreciative hon. member for Oxley, the Government desire of the assistance rendered to them by the to formulate a long-range plan of eiectricity State Electricity Commission in the draft development, not only in Southern Queensland, ing of a proposal acceptable to both the but for North Queensland, as well as other authorities. parts of the State. Investigations are pro "The State Electricity Commission ceeding now in the North. 'l'he civil engineer observes in the arrangement the desidera ing side of this work is being done by tum of public utilities engaged in like ser Mr. Nimmo, a thoroughly qualified engineer, vices, that of being co-ordinated for the but no relative, I might say, of the hon. utmost economic and public advantages; member for Oxley. When the hydrological and it can be accepted that the J ohnstone investigations are completed the economics of Electric Authority, in pursuing the intended developing and interconnecting various course, will contribute materially to this stations will be considered. It is expected end.'' that the report on this North Queensland One could go on speaking for a consider electricity development will be completed by the end of the year. In the meantime the able period on those matters. But it is quite Commission is bringing about interconnec obvious that electricity is one of the impor tion between Cairns and Innisfail. The hydro tant factors, not only in urban development but in rural development as well; and where electric scheme at the Barron Falls was not originally intended to extend into that area. you have large undertakings wit~ f_ranch_ises That scheme is a distinct success. Its power covering extended areas, transmission lme_s going through farming districts and electri has been considerably increased. The use of electricity and the increased market for it city being made available to the farmers, the in North Queensland, however, has made it conditions of life on the land and the eco nomic conditions of the farmer must be necessary, as well as desirable, to have a improved-provided electricity is sold at a hydrological investigation of North Queens land with a view to supplying the extended reasonable rate. areas. We are considering now the inter There is an economic principle that should connecting of the Innisfail power house be stated here, particularly in view of the and the South J ohnstone sugar mill, thus wrong and vicious principle enunciated by establishing a principle I enunciated years the hon. member for Hamilton, and that is ago, that the utmost use should be made of this: that ownership of itseif confers noth all generating power, parti0ularly surplus ing; in other words, private or public owner power. ship depends on the results to those who use That has been done in a number of places the service, the utility, or the commodity pro in Queensland. Take, for example, the metro duced. No good results would accrue from politan area. Had this Bill not been passed, replacing private ownership with public the City Electric Light Company Limited ownership if too high a price was paid. Had and the Brisbane City Council plant would we adopted or if we were to adopt the ideas be operating independently of one another. set forth by the hon. member for Hamilton We have made provision whereby the power we should have over-capitalised the enterprise stations can be tied together, where it is in by at least 50 per cent. the public interest; and that has effected a Mr. Russell: No. very considerable capital saving on both sides. From the point of view of capital, it repre The PREMIER: That would have meant sents a saving of £250,000 to both authori working on that inflated capital and there ties; that would not have been possible but would have been no margin available for for this Act under review. tariff reductions to the public, and no margin enabling rural development to take place at As to the situation in the North, I wish to a price that the farmer and people living in quote from a statement made by Alderman the smaller townships could afford to pay. Collins, the mayor of Cairns, who, I might It is one of the conditions of the agreement say, is one of the most capable local-authority that in rural areas the prices of electricity administrators in Australia- shall be Brisbane prices plus 10 per cent. '' It is satisfactory that the deliberations Does anyone here think that the existing low of this conference have resulted in an electricity tariffs given to rural areas would agreement being reached between the John have been possible if we had valued the under stone Electric Authority and the Barron taking on the basis of Stock Exchange quota Falls Hydro-Electricity Board, whereby, in tions~ It is simply ridiculous. No-one with addition to the formulation of the neces any sense of the validity of the public sary preliminary details, it will tend to interests would ever take into account the promote bigger things in the realm where Stock Exchange value of shares for the pur electric power is a paramount factor. poses of obtaining a valuation. He would Supply. [10 OCTOBER.] Supply. 667 take into account the real value of the enter holders. The return on the capital they prise. The company and its representatives invested is round about 3! per cent. to 3£ per agreed to that basis after negotiations, and cent. I do think, therefore, that the proper they are proceeding with the capital develop procedure at the time would have been to buy ment very rapidly and in a year ur two, when out the undertaking on the physical assets of the scheme is in full operation, areas that the concern. The shares were worth 30s. odd. have now no electricity at all will be able to The physical assets were valued at £1,800,000. get electricity at a rate that will enable them After a long period of years people invested to use it not only for lighting and other their money in an undertaking that was show conveniences in the home, but as power for ing a good return-as high as 10 per cent. many purposes on the farm. Of course, the action taken by the Govern \Vo have been singularly fortunate in the ment will result in great hesitancy on the personnel of the Commission appointed. The part of small capitalists to invest their money chairman, Mr. S. F. Cochran, is an extra in any public utility, because a similar fate ordinarily able man and the other members might befall them. I say that they should of the Commission are eo-operating with him have been protected rather than that this in carrying out a very valuable public service. agreement should be made under which the large shareholder· was quite satisfied to get Mr. RUSSELL (Hamilton) (8 p.m.): The his return of 5jf per cent. The other fellow, Premier has gone to great lengths this even the poor unfortunates, the small people, have ing, but I think he has protested too much. been sacrificed. I quite believe that the big In 1934 we contended that the shareholders shareholders were quite agreeable to signing had bought shares over a period of years in the agreement, but I am also satisfied that which the shares were considered a good the small people were not. They have lost investment for small shareholders. In 1934, their money, and those are the people for Mr. A. W. Fadden, the hon. member for whom I am making a plea. Oxley, and I, put up a ease for the Opposi tion. I have here a long extract from '' Han The PREMIER (Hon. W. Forgan Smith, sard,'' hut it throws the correct light on the ::\1ackay) (8.12 p.m.): It is no use the hon. "-hole situation. I was referring to the member for Hamilton's trying to mislead this 11egotiations that took place between the Committee, and, so far as I am able, I will Brisbane City Council and the City Electric not permit him to do it. The quotations he Light Company J,imited in regard to the pur rited deal with the J 934 Act, which embraced chase of the undertaking. These negotiations an entirely different principle from that upon fell through. On the one hand, the council which the State Electricity Commission has offered a ridiculously low price, and on the been founded. 'rhe 1934 Act was an amend other hand, the company wanted a very much ment nf the Electric Light and Power Act. higher price. I said- 'rhe 1937 Act, which came into operation at '' If the Government are sincere in their the beginning of 1938, was the State Elec pretensions that the generation and distri tricity Commission Act, which set out an bution of elertric cmTent should be con entirely new principle of electricity control trolleu by the community, then why not do 1vithin the community-two entire1y different the honest thing, why not do the British principles, t1vo entirely different Acts. thing-that is to say, buy out this com It is quite true that certain negotiations pany?'' took place between the Brisbane City Council A price of 30s. a share was a fair value at and the City Electric Light Company Limited. the time. The capital of the company was It is also quite true that high prices were £1,800,000 and of 1,200,000 shares there were nskcu for in those negotiations. As a matter 2,000 shareholders, of which 93 per cent. were of fact, there is a vast difference between the Queenslanders. Of these 2,000 shareholders price that 1\-e valued the undertaking at and the majority were very small investors. These as finally agreed upon by the company on the are the people for whom I make the plea, not one hand and that which was said to be the for the large shareholders who have sacrificed value at which the undertaking was offered the small people. I know that well. to the City Council. It was a difference of approximately £1,000,000. I know quite well that the original share holders of the company were only too glad Mr. Russen: That is about right. to make this arrangement with the Govern The PREMIER: I know it is right. The ment. They harl security for 15 years, and hon. member apparently thinks the share anything from 5,l per cent. upwards over that holder should have got that £1,000,000. I do period was a good return on their money, not think so. Had i.he undertaking been over but I do say that in that agreement that was rapitalised to the extent of that £1,000,000 made the small shareholders were thrown to there would have been no margin at all for the 1volves. a reduction of price to the consumer or for an extension of reticulation into rural districts. In 1934 I, together with others, prophesied that this would happen, and our protestations lUr. RusseH: Will you tell us the amount 1vere ridiculed by the Government. What has you paid? happened? What I predicted then has come to pass. The people who invested their money The PRElUIER: The amount who paid? and paid as high as 32s. 9d. a share have lUr. Russell: You say the va,lue was been thrown to the wolves by the large share- fixed at a certain figure. 668 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply. 'l'he PREMIER: Yes. vegetables and fruit when Redlancl Bay and Cleveland were not able to. By means of Mr. Russell: What is the value? electric current water was pumped overnight The PREMIER: The hon. member can by those people who benefited from the use find that out from the company. I do not of electricity before the ad.-ent of the State remember the figure at the moment. It is Electricity Commission. quite easy to obtain a copy of the agreement There could be a great deal of improve between the Governor in Council and the ment in the Brisbane area. Tariffs are too company. As a matter of fact, it is a public high considering the cheapness wi~h. which document and if the hon. member cared to electricity can be generated. Electncity can be indust~ious enough he could get it in the be produced at under 1d. a unit. library now by looking up the ''Government Gazette.'' There is nothing to hide in the The Premier: Then you do not agree matter. The value as at 31 January, 1939, with your leader? was £1,582,425, whereas in 1926 th~ company placed a value of £2,~00,000 on :t~ .under lUr. DART: I made that right before I taking when the questwn of acqmsitlOn by starte·d. (Laughter.) I have some know the Brisbane City Council was mooted. ledge of the matter, and with all respect I say that neither the Leader of the Opposi JUr. DART (Wynnum) (8.16 p.m.): I tion nor the hon. member for Hamilton had listened with some interest to the hon. a great deal to do with it. member for Hamilton's speech and that of I was one who favoured the extension of the Premier. I have come to the conclusion, the Council's transmission lines to the however, that this is not a party matter. Stanley R.iver Dam. In fact, the work would Elech·icity supply is a utility that should be not have proceeded there so satisfact.o~ily worked in the interests of the consumers of had it not been for the use of electncity. Queensland. It is not necessary to dip into That took place before the Commiss~on was party politics and argue about who did this established. I was one of a committee of or who did that. I should like to inform the four who decided to extend the transmission Premier that I was one of the foundation line to the dam. Later on, some of my members of the company who brought about colleagues decided that they \Yould sel~ their the Bill. I was good enough to sell 400 shares interests in this electric venture and It was I owned in the City Electric Light Company sold at a time when the Brisbane City Limited in order that I might be able to get Council was badly in need of money. I a better deal for the city of Brisbane. We think it helped the Council to t.ide over ~ negotiated and were unfavourably received. difficult period until the last C1ty Council To-day the Commission has taken control of elections. That is the history of the trans the works. I say that I believe that it will action relating to the supply of electricity to work out in the interests of the citizens. the Stanley River Dam. Apart from anomalies-and there are anoma lies now; the hon. member has pointed some lUr. JUacdonald: A very foolish thing, of them out-I think it will work out satis too. factorily. :i}Ir. DART: I believe that both water The Premier tried to make out that a great and electricity supplies should be publicly work was done in establishing this Commis controlled in order that the public should sion. Although there is a saving of £328,000 reap the utmost advantage. to the consumers, I say that many of the Bris bane people have not received one penny The Premier said that during the past 12 benefit. I pay the same rate to-day as I was months the sale of electric energy had in paying when I was a member of the Brisbane creased by over 95,000,000 units. We know City Council before this Commission was that at one time tl:here were two power appointed. Rates are exactly the same. I houses operating separately within the city have an Electrice refrigerator and other of Brisbane, one at Doboy Creek and the electrical appliances in my home and my bill other at New Farm. These power houses is the same to-day as it was five or six have been helpful to each other, because on years ago. one occasion when the New Farm power house broke down it was possible to draw But although the citizens of the Greater supplies from Doboy Creek. 'l'hat was one Brisbane area arc not benefiting by the work advantage of co-operation and the amalga of this Commission in the shape of a cheaper mation of electric undertakings, and to-day tariff, the outside areas are benefiting to a the Brisbane City Council is in a better posi great extent. I think we should support the tion in connection with the control of elec scheme, if only for that reason. Country tricity than it was before. However, we areas are able to get electricity to-day at the have not made the progress that we sh?u~d same price as city people, plus 10 per cent. have made especially as we know that It IS I think that is a very reasonable mte to very easy 'to produce electricity at a very pay. The Premier, ::'.i[r, King, would lead ynu low cost. If we continue at the present rate to believe that the good things have come of progress I believe it will not be long about since this Commission brought about a before a f~rther reduction is made in the change, but I can tell you that places in the price of electricity. Greater Brisbane area were using electricity before the Commission inquired into the busi Before the Commission was appointed, ness. Farmers at Rochedale, 9 miles from there were a number of transmission lines, the city, were able to supply the city with in some cases double lines extending far Supply. [10 OCTOBER.] Supply. 669 into the country, bnt the people in those result of the operations of the Commission districts were not allowed to tap them for reductions that mean a saving to the con lighting or power purposes, but since the sumers have been effected to the extent I appointment of the Commission the lines have stated. Consumers in Brisbane have had have been tapped and the farmers have reductions in the domestic tariff rate since reaped the benefit. I think we are all agreed July last, amounting to over £20,000 per that every endeavour should be made to pro annum. vide electric light and power for every home in Queensland. Although people have com ~Ir. DART: I rise to a point of order. plained to me that the municipal rates on '!'here has been no alteration in the Brisbane their land have been exorbitant, they have City Council electricity tariff. always paid their electric light accounts without murmur. Electrical energy is sup Tile CHAIRlUAN: Order! There is plied at a much lower cost in the other States nothing in the hon. member's point of order. than it is in Q.ueensland, and prices should I will give the hon. member an opportunity be reduced here. However, I suppose that of stating that fact. matter will right itself in due course. I believe that the supply of energy throughout Mr. DART (Wynnum) (8.28 p.m.): the Brisbane area should be controlled by Thank you, Mr. King. The ,,ame tariff rate the Brisbane City Council and steps should is now being charged by the Brisbane City be taken by the Council to that end. Counril as when I was a member of that body three years ago. The same tariff pre Hon. members conversing in loud tones, vailed for three years prior to that time. I am paying the same rate to-day as then. If The CHAIRMAN: Order! There is too I went clown to my room I could obtain a much noise in the Chamber. I cannot hear couple of last month's accounts for electricity, »·hat the hon. member for Wynnum is say in order to show there is no difference in the ing. rate. lUr. DART: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Tlte CHAIRMAN: Order! There is no There is one other matter I wish to refer point of order in what the hon. member states, to. There is a very big shortage of copper but the hon. member can speak if he desires. cable. Poles have been erected for some months in places in the Greater Brisbane lUr. DART: I can honestly say there area, but cable cannot be procured to make has been no change in the electricity tariff. the installation. The Commission would do The Premier: You are entirely wrong. well to go into this matter and intercede on There has been a saving of over £20,000 per behalf of the prospective users to enable annum. them to get a supply. I was out in the country a few days ago and saw poles that ~Ir. DART: If there has been such a were erected six months ago. Electricity was reduction then the benefit has gone to con still being withheld from the people in that sumers other than householders using refri area because of the lack of electric cable. gerators, stows, and power for lighting There is a distinct shortage in this commodity. purposes. There has been no reduction in electricity charges for electric stoves, refri Hon. members continuing to converse in gerators, or light. loud tones, TI1e CHAIRMAN: Order! The hon. The CHAIRMAN: Order! Each side of member is repeating himself. He has already the Chamber has apparently made up its said that. mind not to hear the hon. member, but never theless I do wish to hear him. ~Ir. MULLER (Fassifern) (8.30 p.m.): lUr. DART: I support the extension of I »·ish to pay a tribute to the work of the electricity to areas that are not now receiving State Electricity Commission, particularly for its benefits. The present Government doubt their decision to supply current to the shires, less take credit for supplying electricity in but I have been somewhat disappointed with the Lockycr district, but I know that the delay that has taken place. When the electricity was supplied to pumping plants State Electricity Bill was before the House in in the Lockyer district long before the Com 1937 I expressed the opinion that, while I mission was appointed. We can safely say felt the Bill had certain merits, unfortunately, that power was supplied to the primary pro it would have the effect of causing delay in ducers in this area before the appointment the supply of current to some districts. That of the Commission, and agree that an impetus has actually happened. It is regrettable that was given to the use of that power since the places such as Beaudesert and Boonah, within Commission's operations. I hope now that it a stone's throw of Brisbane, should be without is operating in accordance with the Act it a supply. will proceed to give the whole of Queensland The Premier: You tried to squeeze them the benefit of electricity. in Boonah. Tlte PREMIER (Hon. W. Forgan Smith, Mr. ~IULLER: No, we did not try to :M:ackay) (8.27 p.m.): The hon. member who squeeze them, or the Premier either. The has just resumed his seat was entirely wrong Premier and I got into holts about whether when he said that the people of Brisbane are a deputation waited on him in connection receiving no benefit from the operations of with the supply of electricity or had not; but the State Electricity Commission. As a the fact remains those districts have been 670 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply. agitating for a supply of current for a number JUr. lliULLER: The hon. gentleman of years. knows it is true. Another point I should like to draw the The Secretary for Mines: It is wrong. Premier's attention to is that, before the State Electricity Bill was presented to Parliament, Jllr. MULLER: It is true and we can these districts were on the verge of entering bring evidence to prove it. Before that Act was brought down the City Electric Light into an agreement with the City Electric Li~ht Company for a supply of current at the pnce Company was doing its utmost to provide they are going to pay to-day. The conditions transmission lines to Boonah, and the only of the agreement at that time was that the reason why they were not provided was that country districts had been supplied at Bris it was not able to get a franchise. bane prices, plus 10 per cent. So, the point The Secretary for Mines: It could not made by the Premier, in the course of his pass them through the area of the Ipswich remarks, was not quite in accordance with franchise, and you know that. facts. Mr. MULLER: The same applies to other I appreciate the difficulties the State areas. If the hon. gentleman would use his Electricity Commission has had to contend common sense, he would ask why a district ·with, and I realise theTe ·was a number of such as Beaudesert, which is within a few districts clamouring for a supply of current, miles of transmission lines, has not been but there is an old saying, ''One man's loss supplied with cmrent. Can the hon. gentle is a·nother man's gain,'' and, in the case of man tell me why~ It is not a hit of good the supply of electricity, our loss has been crying over past mistakes. This has been a some other district's gain. It is a great pity mistake, and has had the effect of withhold the Bill was so frame·d as to have that effect. ing supplies from the .([istrict. The Premier made some reference to irriga The Secretary for Jllines: Utter nonsense! tion. Generally speaking, the cost of po>ver used for irrigation purposes is altogether too 2'\Ir. MULLER: It is not nonsense. The hon. gentleman liYcs in Ipswich and can obtain great; it makes it too expensive. current at a reasonable price. He has no We have endeavoured to co-operate with the cause to complain, but if he had to live a State Electricity Commission and the Govern little further out in an agricultural centre, ment to extend transmission lines as rapidly and he was denied current, he would be visit as possible; in fact, we have offered to put ing the Premier once a week begging for a business in their way. For example, the dairy supply. \Ve have been told by those c-on association with which I am connected has cerned-and they should know, and I do not linked up three of its factories with the city suppose they 1vould erect lines into unprofit transmission lines-Booval, Grantham, and able areas-that seven years ago they were Boonah. Quite :t number of undertakings in pleading to he allowed to erect a transmission addition to ours are prepared to co-operate line. in that way. The Secretary for lliines: You know The point I wish to make here is that any that is not correct. business concern, such as the City Electric Light Company Limited, wouJ.d not hesitate a Jllr. :HULLER: The hon. gentleman moment to serve districts that are ready to knows as well as I do that it is correct. take current as soon as they are able to supply The CHAIRllL\.N: Order! if It seems a great pity that an Act of this Jllr. 11HILLER: I agree that it is more description should have had the effect of economical to supply current in large than in holding up the supply of current as it has. small quantities. I know that 60,006,000 units 'The Beaudesert district is within a few miles can he generated for a slightly higher cost of Brisbane, and only a few miles from exist than 30,000,000 units. It is the duty of the ing transmission lines. A sensible business Government to see that consumers of electri orga-nisation would not hesitate for a moment city are not being exploite·d. That has been to exten·d a transmission line from Jimboomba done. My real complaint this evening is into Beaudesert to serve that district or from regarding delay. I see no reason why the the Canungra district. When one se~s a pro Commission should prevent the extension of gressive township, such as Beaudesert and transmission lines to districts in which people the d_istrict surrounding it crying out for are begging for current. The consumers· in electnc current and unable to obtain it one Beaudesert are being charged 15d. a unit, w_on~ers what is :wrong. Deputations fro~ the and even at that price it is only a clirect drstnct have warted on the Minister and the cmrent supply. It is not a satisfactory Premier on several occasions. I have supply. The voltage is not high enough to f;equer;tly app.roached the Electricity Commis enable the current to be used for power pur s.wn wrth a vrew to having the transmission pose~, and at busy pedods there is not en-ough lmes extended to these districts. Our real for 1\ghting purposes. There is not even complaint is that, but for the Act that >vas enough to supply the town. I lay the respon sibility for the delay at the door of the suppo~ed. to expedite the supplv of current, the drstnct woul·d have been supplied years Government. If we had been alloiTed to carry ago. on without the interference that took place, I venture to say-in fact, I am absolutely Tl!e Secretary for Mines: That is certain-that these districts wouJ.d have been nonsense! supplied with electricity years ago. Supply. [10 OcTOBER.] Supply. 671 The State Electricity Commission has been wide discussion as that which has take place appointed and I am looking to that body to would have been allowed. see to it that these districts are supplied with current at the earliest possible date. Mr. CHAIRlUAN: That is for the We appreciate the difficulties with which the Chairman to decide. I have decided to Commission has had to contend during the allow that discussion. last few months. We realise that there has been a shortage of copper, but the point is Mr. NHIMO: I can see that. I think, that a number of far less important districts however, that the Premier is taking a lot have been supplied while the ones to which of credit for the wonderful woJ·k that has I have referred have been prevented from been done when I am not so surf) that much getting a supply. I hope that during the credit can be taken. As a matter of fact, next 12 months the Premier will see to it if the State Electricity Commission had that districts such as the Beaudesert district worked as it has done under the present are supplied with electricity. I know of no chainnan and at the same time nllowed the town within 200 miles of Brisbane that has City Electric Light Company a little more made the same rapid progress that this little latitude, it is possible that still greater town has made during the last couple of development would have taken place. I am years. Surely to goodness, in the interests pleased that the Premier did not go right of progress, an effort should be made to ahead and buy the whole of the undertaking, supply in the near future such towns as those because such a step would have spelt disaster to which I have referred. to the people of Queensland. In adopting the course that he has, he has enabled elec tTicity to be supplied to country districts. ~Ir. YEATES (East Toowoomba) (8.41 p.m.): Half an hour ago I was almost asleep I am doubtful whether he has achieved any good results, however, by allowing the waiting for the Agricultural Estimates to company such a small margin of profit. The come on for discussion, but the electric current company !mow they can pay a dividend of that has been whizzing round this Chamber 2 per cent. above the mte for Commonwealth has affected me, just as those jiggers loans. Now anyone knows that a company affect racehorses. should be re~varded for higher efficiency, but this company receives no reward even if it At the outset I desire to say that I do is very efficient. not associate myself with the purchase of this undertaking. I do not know how it was l'IIr. Power: Your interests are in the done or whether it was done fairly and company and not in the people. squarely; in fact, I know nothing at all about Mr. NillflUO: The hon. member's vision it. I do hope that the Government gave does not allow him to see even so far as the company a square deal. If they did not, that. My point is that if we allow a certain then they should have done so. latitude to a company and it can make its The State Electricity Commission is forg works very efficient, we are likely to get ing ahead. It has passed through Helidon into current at a lower price than if we give it East Toowoomba. It is supplying farmers a fixed dividend and it does not matter how right along by Murphy 's Creek, and at the it runs its works. Southport and Coolangatta moment it is crossing the main Tange on its consumers were paying an unduly high rate, way to Cooby Creek to supply current for and have received some benefit, but, as the pumping water to the city of Toowoomba. I hon. member for Wynnum pointed out, there hope that the enterprise will continue to go has been no reduction in the Brisbane area. ahead. Whilst I am a great believer in private enterprise, I believe that electricity as a lUr. Duggan: There has been a reduc- public utility is quite in order. I want to see tion. the humblest citizen in the community have I\Ir. NIMJUO: There has not. Of course, electric current available at the cheapest the Brisbane area is helping to bear the cost possible price. of certain extensions into the country, and I was at Quilpie the other day. I advise that is all right. I think that the country any hon. member who has not been to this :fine people should have current at a cheap rate. little ''city of the West'' to visit it and It must not be forgotten that the company inspect the excellent hydro-electric scheme offered to extend electricity into country that is attached to the bore here. It is a mag districts at 10 per cent. on Brisbane rates, nificent plant, supplying light to the whole of and, if the franchise had been granted, as the town. I want to see every little place the hon. member for Fassifern pointed out, in the country supplied with electricity, and those areas would have been reticulated long every housewife in the country supplied with ago. Notwithstanding that the Premier has electricity at the cheapest possible rates. talked a lot and taken credit for what he has done, we have achieved nothing that the I do not think we ought to stay much people would not otherwise have achieved. longer on this vote. If the Commission had not been appointed, and if the company had been allowed to Mr. NIMlUO (Oxley) (8.23 p.m.): When continue to work on a reasonable principle, I spoke about the State Electricity Commis the people would have been as well off. I sion I referred only to the work it was say we are not getting the results we could doing. I did not enter into any details. As have got had the matter been worked on a a matter of fact, I did not think such a different basis. 672 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply. The PREMIER (Hon. W. Forgan Smith, been suggested should have been done by hon. Mackay) (8.48 p.m.): Hon. members oppo members opposite. site do not realise the importance of a fixed dividend applied to the social economy of Mr. Russell: Nobody suggested that. a nation. A maximum dividend payable to The PREMIER: The hon. member capital is a principle that has been approved suggested that we should have taken into by most economic interests throughout account the Stock Exchange value-- Australia and elsewhere. The principles embodied in the Act will be adopted in many :ilir. R.ussell: I did not. countries outside Australia when dealing The PREJUIER: The hon. member with electricity. The principle of a fixed suggested-- dividend or a maximum dividend is one that is peculiarly applicable to public-utility Mr. Russell: No. companies that hold franchises for the supply TI1e PREThHER: That we should have of electricity. There can be, of course, taken over a going concern-- differences of opinion as to the rate the dividend should be. I believe in a square 1\Ir. RUSSELL: Mr. Chairman, I rise to deal for all. In carrying on these negotia · a point of order. tions, while I was willing to give the company 'file PREliiiER: That we should have a fair deal, I was out to see to it that the taken over a going concern at Stock Exchange public got a fair deal, too. It was my experi ence of the company that it was, like others value-- similarly situated, very well able to take care J1Ir. RUSSELL: Mr. Chairman, I rise to of itself. The company, its legal representa a point of order. tives, and others were much better able to state its case than any hon. member who has The CHAIR.lUAN: Is the hon. member spoken in this Chamber. rising to a point of order~ A further principle that hon. members over Jir. RUSSELL: Yes. I take exception look, particnlarly the hon. member who talked to the Premier's misquoting my remarks. 1 said that the shares were yalued at 30s., and a bout the reward for increased efficiency, is on a capitalisation of £1,200,000 that would that the company must earn the di\·idenc1, haYe given £1,800,000, which is £300,000 more otherwise it is not paid. It is not guaranteed than the original quotation to the Brisbane by the Crown. The price of electricity is City Council. That is not £1,000,000 more. :fixed in relation to the capitalisation of the company, and if the company is organised on TI1e CHAIRMAN: Order! The Premier! a proper basis and run efficiently, as it is 'l'lle PREMIER: I am not misquoting to-day, it will earn that dividend, but it must the hon. member. He referred time and again earn it before it is paid. Evidently, hon to a.n exchange yalue, and exchange value i~ members opposite think that companies ought. important to people who operate on the Stock to get these things whether they earn them "Exchange for speculative purposes. :1\o-one would e,·er dream of valuing the assets of a or not. In any case, it is like many other company of any kind whatsoever ·on the reforms-when Bills are introduced to estab basis of the value placed on the scrip at any lish new principles it is natural for some given time by the Stock Exchange. people to oppose them. They fear change. Other people think that the public interests The hon. member for Fassifern raised the are supreme, and that is the view of the question of delay in supplying certain areas. Government. Others, again, think that the I 'vant to say in fairness to the company interests of a section should be supreme. that it is ahead of its schedule of works, nohvithstnncling the difficufiy of obtaining' If the agreed upon value of the undertaking copper. Everyone knows that copper is diffi had been £1,000,000 more, the agreement cult to obtain. The extremely heavy demand would not have been worth while, because that is made for copper for munition manu· there would have been no margin facture is the cause of that; aYailable sup ·whereby reduced prices could have been plies must be used for the most important granted to the consumers or extensions made pnrpose. I take the view that if it is a into areas that \Vere not densely popnlated. question hehveen nsing available copper for In any case, the people who made the agree the purpose of making munitions and using n:ent-on both sides-knew what thev 'vere it for electric transmission lines, then, unless doing. We are satisfied with the agreement. the transmission line is required for defence I have no regret' of any kind, and I am purposes, the electric undertaking must be very proud of the fact tl1at I was associated delayed in favour of the munitions. (Hear, with a Government that put through a hea:r!) That is a fair anc1 reasonable pro measure of this kind, which settled many diffi position. The Government have done every cult problems for all time, and particularly thing possible to get copper for the trans the problem of severance, the complete defini mission lines. The Commission was able to tion of which has never been agreed upon by obtain copper for the transmission lines for any two legal authorities. However, the diffi the Cooby Creek job. I wrote to the Prime culty in regard to severance is now at an Minister on that matter and also the com end. The company was dealt with fairly, pany. The latter has been able to make and I repeat that the public interest has been arrangements to get sufficient copper to carry conserved and the greed of capitalism was on the works it has in hand. The work not allowed to charge £1,000,000 extra as has extends over a long period and the company Supply. [10 OCTOBER.] Supply. 673 is allowed a certain time to reticulate certain Assistance (Debts Adjustment) Acts, and areas. Some jobs will be completed first and Bureau of Rural Development. some later. It is all a question of order of priority that is placed on the work by those ~Ir. WALKER (Cooroora) (9.2 p.m.): who organise it. The best judges of this are I take it you are following the usual course? the engineers. Tile CHAIRJUAN: I allow full discus The hon. member knows full well that the sion on the revenue departments of the chief difficulty at Beaudesert is due to the Department of Agriculture ancl Stock. fact that the supply there is direct current. Consequently, more work will he involved by 1Ur. WALKER: This is a very important the change from direct current to alternating vote. vVhen all is said ancl done, Queens current, and the people of Beaudesert under land is relying on production to a great stand that. There is no place that I know extent. of that will reap advantage more once it is ~ aturally we like to go into the depart properly linked up under this scheme. The ment's activities very carefully, and it is price that was being paid for current Yvhen unfortunate that again we have not got the I was down there last was a very high one annual report of thls department. Last year indeed. It is a luxury product. Very few we got it earlier than usual, but unfortu, people could afford to pay the tariff. nately there was then no opportunity to dis }Ur. Jiinller: That is so. cuss the Estimates for the uepartment. If we hacl the annual report before the The PREMIER: Again, the work at Estimates came up for consideration hon. Boonah yyilJ be proceeded with as early as members would be armed Yvith knowledge possible. There have been difficulties, of they must have in order to go oarefully into which also the hon. member is aware. The matters affecting that department. It is very question involved there was whether the rep·ettable that this delay in the annual transmission lines should be taken to supply reportJ applies almost to the whole of the Boonah or Yvhether additional plant should be departments. It is not only under the regime put ,into the butter factory to enable it to of this Government that delays have occurred. supply power for a longer period than the It is a great pity that there was not an present plant permits. That would have amendment of the Constitution to insist that meant aduitionnl cost. It has be2n decided these annual reports are brought down early to push ahead as quickly as possible with the enough to enable hon. members to ha:ve Yvork at Boonah. That Yvill help the Boonah them before the Estimates come up for dis people, ancl it will help the ]cutter factory, cussion. :Yiy remarks also apply to the too. The price the people of Boonah will then Auditor-General's report. The only report pay for current Yvill be less than the prire we have is that of the Agent-General. The they are paying now from their own plant. information contained in it is certainly very That is how I understand the position. valuable, but if we have the rep?rts of the Obviously, the difficulty of getting copper various departments they would g1ve ~s some must delay some of the YVork. That is inevi idea of how we have progresseu durmg the table under existing conditions. It is not last year and we could have made C0111}1ari reasonable to assume that overnight or in the sons that would have been helpful. course of a week or two such a large area as is de'llt with in this franchise could be Our production has gone along fairly well, as far as we can gather from information properly reticulated. ~evertheless, the com pany is well n head of schedule. in the Press. We arc a great producing country but there is room for greater expan Vote (State Electricity Commission) sion. We produce approximately £40,000,000 agreed to. worth of agricultural ancl grazing products, which is a big item considering the small area CoNsoLJDATED REVENUE EsTIMATES. that is closely settled. The time will come when the large areas in ·western Queensland DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE AND STOCK; that are now used for grazing sheep and cattle CHIEF OFFICE. will be utilised to greater advantage. Tile SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE We are going thTOugh a particularly AND STOCK (Hon. F. W. Bulcock, Barcoo): severe time, anc1 I think the thought that is I move- uppermost in the mind of every man is that ''That £94,164 be granted for 'Depart we ought to make some move to-morrow ment of Agriculture and Stock-Chief morning to deal with drought relief. It is Office.''' of such importance that unless something is done quickly great numbers of cattle, mostly The CHAIRMAN: Before I put this dairy cattle, will be lost. This affects als_o vote I wish to call the attention of the Com by-products. We have hal1 droughts pren mittee to the fact that I will allow discus ously and know the dreadful results. In a sion on the revenue departments but will not drought period a few years ago ~he G~vern allow discussion on the Trust and Special ment launched a scheme that was unmed1ately Fund votes on page 117, namely, Diseases taken up by the farming communit:y. The in Stock and Brands Acts, Banana Industry eo-operative companies WOT keel hand m ~an:J Protection Acts, Regulation of Sugar Cane with the Government to get a better distn Prices Acts, Dairy Cattle Improvement Act, bution of fodder and collect the moneys for Sugar Experiment Stations Acts, Farmers' it, Judging by the reply to a question we 1940-Y 674 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply. asked in connection with this scheme the detail in distribution and collection of Minister must have been pleasantly sur moneys. The application of this scheme prised. would mean much with regard to not only The Secretary for Agriculture and Stock: cattle but also pigs. Within the past few Why should I be surprised g Surely the farm years pig products have increased consider ing community want to pay their debts W ably in price. We do not want to lose the connection that has been obtained with the Mr. WALKER: It is always surprising home country as regards pork and bacon, to see money. That was a very big scheme mostly pork, and by-products of pigs. Hon. and it had a surprising result. We should members will realise that it is a big problem have a similar scheme brought into opera that should be tackled immediately. tion to-morrow. The benefits given, the response to it, and the meeting of the corn ::\fr. Pike refers in his report to the butter mitments should really be an encouragement industry. It is pleasing to know that the to look upon such a scheme as more in the English people have been taking our butter nature of drought insurance than a relief in the same ratio as before, and the price that scheme. The Commonwealth Government has been arranged between our representatives realise the position and will grant approxim and the British Government, 137s. 2d., is a ately £2,000,000 immediately. Queensland good one. I think much more could be done requires £200,000 for this purpose imme to increase the amount exported. Mr. Pike diately. It is no use saying that they cannot emphasised the need for keeping the quality get enough and that they can get only part uniform and regular, and we wish to support of it. That makes no difference. The rest the Minister in his desire to improve quality eau be asked for later. It must be remem with a view to capturing other markets. bered that the Commonwealth Government Although Queensland is suffering from a have a very big matter on hand. If they are drought, I suggest that it would be wise to giving sufficient to the States suffering from encourage farmers to feed their stock and drought they certainly have enough to meet keep them in milk as long as possible. Eng all requirements. land wants all the butter she can get, and we want her to take it. She wants it to feed Tlte Secretary for Agriculture and Stock: her people because of the scarcity of fats Do not mislead anybody or yourself. The there now. We have something like 30,000 Government are not giving any money. dairymen in Queensland, and if we can increase the production of butter even by one Mr. WALKER: I know that, but it is there to be used, and the present is not the box a dairyman, we shall be able to export time to look for obstacles that may arise in another 30,000 boxes of butter a year, which the transaction between the Commonwealth should return from £60,000 to £70,000 to our and the State. producers. On reading Mr. Pike's report, I notice that At 9.7 p.m., the Egg Pool has made wonderful strides. Mr. JONES (Charters Towers), one of the Astounding quantities of eggs are being pan~! of Temporary Chairmen, relieved the exported. Last year our exports exceeded Chamnan in the chair. those of the previous year by 18,894 long hundreds. This fact alone ought to be clear Mr. WALKER: We should launch out evidence that in England we have an unlimited with such a scheme to-morrow morning. The market for our products. Queensland is doing Minister may not be quite conversant with much to increase the overseas market. The the matter but his officers will be reporting eggs exported from China and neighbouring to him from time to time. Cattle are dying countries cannot. be landed in England in any in Queensland to-day because of drought con where near as good condition as those coming ditions. I am not dealing with this matter in from kustralia. any frivolous mood. I am stating fads. 'The application of such a scheme to-morrow Of course, butter rationing has been intro morning ·would be the means of saving the duced into England, the weekly allowance lives of many of our beasts. Something must being only 4 oz. In addition to this eurtail be done. A great deal depends on speedy ment in the consumption of butter, we find relief. The price of lucerne is now that prominent men have been advising the approximately £10 to £12 a ton and bran people to change to margarine. I say that it and pollard are almost unprocurable for the is time enough to eat margarine when all -ordinary farmer. These high prices really the butter has been eaten. It must be real denote the scarcity of fodder and make the ised, of course, that we cannot produce butter problem more difficnlt for the Governmrnt, for anywhere near the same price as mar but it is immaterial how big the problem garine, which is produced for something like may be or the obstacles that mav arise in 6d. or Sd. a lb. Margarine is now regarded the. future, the Government should· start such as a quite healthy food. Every year larger a scheme to-morrow morning. It is their amounts of it are being manufactured over obligation to do so. If part of the £200,000 there, and unfortunately, in Queensland, too. eannot be collected within a month or tv:o I asked a question this year about mar it should not prevent the purchase of fodder garine, because I am of the opinion that in to-morrow. Arrangements for distribution the product that comes from New South could be made >Yith the co-operative com ·wales we have a greater menace to the dairy panies or other organisations that would do jug industry than any other pest we know of. the work. '!'his would relieve the Govern As a ma,tter of fact, the ravages of a drought ment of much responsibility with regard to are nothing compared with it. I should like Supply. [10 OcTOBER.] Supply. 675 to see the Government do something in regard all over the State, and the Minister thoroughlY; to the manufacture of margarine in this State. understands his business. I really think the Whilst margarine is a wholesome food, it has industry could have been conducted better by not the same food value as butter. ·we must that department. take into consideration the questions of closer Even now, I urge the Secretary for Agricul settlement and population when considering ture and Stock to assume complete controi of this matter. \Ve must look ahead. I think cotton cultivation. There are old-established that it is about time hon. members opposite farmers, who have grown cotton for the past supported the Minister, because I know he is 20 or 30 years, but they were induced to go in inclined to be with us on the question. Let for butter production and other agricultural us see if something cannot be done to stop products, not because their land was not suit the importation of margaTine into Queens able for the production of cotton, but because land and the manufactme of it in the State. of the better price that was offered for other The Secretary for Agriculture and Stock: products. I am sure that if an appeal was As soon f!q the New South Wales Government made to them on patriotic grounds to switch pass their Margarine Bill we will put oUT back to cotton, they would do so imme·diately. Act into operation, and that will overcome In the old days, very few varieties of cotton the \Yhole difiiculty. were grown, but new types have been intro duced by the Minister with undoubted suc Mr. WALKER: We know the menace cess. That would help considerably towards exists, and I want the Minister to use his the production of 20,000 bales to meet Aus persuasive powers to see if something cannot traiia 's requirements. There is a scarcity of be done under the Commonwealth Constitu cotton in Australia now, with little likelihood tion. If margarine is sold in its natural of importing anything from overseas or of form, it is bad enough, but I understand there finding a substitute for it. is a good deal of manipulation going on. It is being passed off on the market in a form Mr. Jesson: What is to prevent them that makes it appear different from what it from going in for cotton nowW really is. Something must be done to keep this menace down in Australia. lUr. WALKER: They only require a little encouragement from the Minister to The Secretary for Agl'iculture and Stock: embark upon cotton cultivation again. They· Why is it thr.t Kew South \Vales is the only have all the equipment, and there is nothing State in Australia that has not passed an to prevent the department from giving th~m anti-:C,fargarinc Bill i t-he necessary advice and the seed to enable them to begin planting right away. I venture 3Ir. WALKER: I know that the New the opinion that, if tl1at was .(lone, there would Gouth Wales interests are great indeed, be a production of 30,000 bales inside 20 because they waited on me a few years ago months from now. That would be a wonderful when I was Secretary for Agriculture and help to Australia. The Commonwealth· Stock. '!'hey ·were given 12 months in which Government have helped the cotton industry to find another emulsifying agent. by way of a bounty costing £15,000 a year. _In The Secretary for Agriculture and Stock: fact, the Commonwealth has helped the The cure was worse than the original method Queensland primary producers in many other of treatment. ways. It granted £499 for apple and pear research, £2,200 for tobacco investigation, }Ir. WALKER: According to the report £2,900 foT cattle tick control, £4,300 for fer furnished by the Agent-General, OUT pine tiliser subsidy, £109,000 for assistance to the apples have found a good market in England wheat industry, and £100,000 for farmers' for the first time. There is scope for greater debts adjustment. That was a wonderful help production of pineapples in the State. Last to Queensland an·d a help to the Common year, according to N(r. Pike's report, the .-;·ealth and to the Imperial authorities, quantity of Queensland pineapples shipped to especially for \Yar purposes. the United Kingdom was about 52,000 cases, compared with 39,000 cases in the previous We can grow ma"ny more ceTeais than we year. Those figures speak for themselves. do to-day. It may not be profitable to grow Great credit is reflected on those responsible more wheat, because there is not a sufiici~nt for the despatch of pineapples to Great demand for it, but, with the help of the Britain, because they are a commodity that department, we could grow cereals to stimu has to compete with that of countries where late pork production, and thus increase the it is grown by black labour. Distance, of income o£ the farmers. Good pork has b~en course, is a big factor in the matter; we are produced in this State for the past 10 or 15 OYercoming it by more efiicient methods. years, and the ruling prices are reasonable. The Commonwealth Government are giving There are many. ways in which production a good bounty for the growing of cotton. It may be increased. F'irst of all, there is need has been in operation for a considerable time, of increased pro·duction, and then there is although the Commonwealth Government have room for an improvement in the quality of not been given credit for it. 'This again is our products. No matter what we produce, an industry that is capable of expansion. I there is always room for improvement. Then am sorry that the Department of Labour and there is an urgent need to eomba t animal and Industry interfered with cotton-growing; I vegetable pests. They are responsible for a think it should have been left entirely to the tremendous ecorromic loss in this State. It is Department of Agriculture and Stock. That comparati,·ely easy to .aeal with animal pests, department has trained and capable ofiicers but it is extremeiy difiicult to combat the 676 Questions. [ASSEMBLY.] Auctioneers, &c., Amendment Bill. ravages of vegetable pests. There is room for considerable research in this field. A large staff of men are engaged in the work, but 'we get no reports from them. We may get annual reports that the Minister lays before Parliament. We want these reports to see exactly what is being done. Unfortunately, these reports will probably withhol·d the details which we, as laymen, should get. The details of the work undertaken are difficult to obtain, and the results of their investiga tions, judged from reading the report, might be nil, although, as a matter of fact, they might have been doing very good work. Strong eff·orts should be made to get new markets. This requires an enormous amount of fnergy, from the Director of Marketing down to the very lowest official. I am afraid we have no such official in the department to-day. A few years ago we had one of the ablest men in Australia as Director of Mar keting, in Mr. L. R. Macgregor. He 'vas unquestionably an outstan-ding man. When.he left the State for the Federal sphere, there was no man with his qualifications to replace bim. The late Mr. Graham, an able men, was appointed to the vacant office, but, unfor tunately, illness prevented him giving that -time and attention to the office that it required, and his death left a gap that has not yet been filled. \Ve have to create new markets by finding them, which can only be done by an expert with commercial experience. We must make investigations into the pro blems of marketing, which probably have -~ot been touched since Mr. Macgregor left this 'State. The Government should use their best endeavours to get the services of an able man as Director of Marketing. We know how very difficult it is to capture markets on the other side of the world and enter into competition with old-established concerns. It would be wise for the Government to consider the appointment of such an expert to go into the business side of marketing in order that some thing may be done. Progress reported. The House adjourned at 9.29 p.m.