CANADA House of Commons Debates

VOLUME 141 ● NUMBER 060 ● 1st SESSION ● 39th PARLIAMENT

OFFICIAL REPORT (HANSARD)

Thursday, October 5, 2006

Speaker: The Honourable Peter Milliken CONTENTS (Table of Contents appears at back of this issue.)

Also available on the Parliament of Canada Web Site at the following address: http://www.parl.gc.ca 3675

HOUSE OF COMMONS

Thursday, October 5, 2006

The House met at 10 a.m. PETITIONS

FALUN GONG Mr. Rick Casson (Lethbridge, CPC): Mr. Speaker, it is my Prayers privilege today to table some petitions which originate in the constituencies of Lethbridge and Calgary Southeast. The petitioners urge the government to investigate the persecution ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS of Falun Gong practitioners. MARRIAGE ● (1005) Mr. Rick Casson (Lethbridge, CPC): Mr. Speaker, the second [English] petition is to re-open the issue of marriage in order to promote and GOVERNMENT RESPONSE TO PETITIONS defend marriage as the lawful union of one man and one woman. Mr. Tom Lukiwski (Parliamentary Secretary to the Leader of AGE OF CONSENT the Government in the House of Commons and Minister for Mr. Rick Casson (Lethbridge, CPC): Mr. Speaker, my next Democratic Reform, CPC): Mr. Speaker, pursuant to Standing petition is from concerned Canadians who wish to see the age of Order 36(8) I have the honour to table, in both official languages, the consent raised from 14 to 16. government's response to three petitions. EUTHANASIA *** Mr. Rick Casson (Lethbridge, CPC): Mr. Speaker, the last petition is one to maintain current criminal sanctions against PROCEEDS OF CRIME (MONEY LAUNDERING) AND euthanasia and that greater resources be devoted to palliative care TERRORIST FINANCING ACT for the terminally ill. Hon. Rob Nicholson (for the Minister of Finance) moved for [Translation] leave to introduce Bill C-25, An Act to amend the Proceeds of Crime (Money Laundering) and Terrorist Financing Act and the Income HOMELESSNESS Tax Act and to make a consequential amendment to another Act. Mr. Christian Ouellet (Brome—Missisquoi, BQ): Mr. Speaker, (Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and printed) I would like to present a petition on behalf of people who have expressed their support for the RHF and small SCPI communities *** programs. This petition is from the Maison d'accueil pour sans-abri de Chicoutimi. This is a shelter for homeless men and, with great COMMITTEES OF THE HOUSE support, it is calling for the SCPI program to be renewed. CANADIAN HERITAGE I therefore present this petition. Mr. Gary Schellenberger (Perth—Wellington, CPC): Mr. *** Speaker, I have the honour to present, in both official languages, the seventh report related to the Canadian Museums, and the eighth [English] report related to the court challenges program at the fiscal 2005-06 QUESTIONS ON THE ORDER PAPER level of the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage. Mr. Tom Lukiwski (Parliamentary Secretary to the Leader of HUMAN RESOURCES, SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT AND THE STATUS OF the Government in the House of Commons and Minister for PERSONS WITH DISABILITIES Democratic Reform, CPC): Mr. Speaker, I ask that all questions be Mr. Dean Allison (Niagara West—Glanbrook, CPC): Mr. allowed to stand. Speaker, I have the honour to present, in both official languages, the The Speaker: Is that agreed? fourth report of the Standing Committee on Human Resources, Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities. Some hon. members: Agreed. 3676 COMMONS DEBATES October 5, 2006

Business of Supply PRIVILEGE He told me that if I were to continue to raise these frivolous points of FREEDOM OF SPEECH order that there would be retribution. This is a matter of threatening or intimidating a member of Parliament in the conduct of their Mr. Paul Szabo (Mississauga South, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, it is responsibilities. The member for Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskas- with some regret but with a sense of responsibility that I rise on a ing, who was in his seat, observed and heard all that was said. matter of privilege. I have been in this place since 1993 and I have a great deal of I refer to Marleau and Montpetit under “The Structure of respect for the House. I take this matter very seriously because there Privilege” on page 70 where it states: is a pattern, there is a history, with regard to the member for Nepean —both the House in its collective capacity and Members individually have the —Carleton. However, I will not go into those as the Speaker is well responsibility to protect from abuse their rights and immunities, particularly aware of them. freedom of speech. ● (1010) Under “FREEDOM OF SPEECH” on page 71, it states: I have raised this question of privilege because I do not think any ...a fundamental right without which they would be hampered in the performance of their duties. member should be approached by another member, particularly in the House, and told that they should not be doing something that is That is what freedom of speech refers to. their right and that, if they do, they would be subject to some sort of It permits them to speak in the House without inhibition, to refer to any matter or retribution. express any opinion as they see fit, to say what they feel needs to be said in the furtherance of the national interest and the aspirations of their constituents. I believe I have satisfied the two conditions with regard to a matter of privilege: first, in regard to making a case that it is a prima facie Yesterday, just prior to the taking of the recorded divisions, I rose breach of my privileges as a member not to be threatened or on a point of order on a matter of relevance and this was with regard intimidated by another member in the performance of the conduct of to the member for Nepean—Carleton who was in the process of my duties; and second, having raised it with the Speaker at the addressing the House. earliest opportunity. In Marleau and Montpetit, on page 83, under the section, Should the Speaker find a prima facie case of privilege, I would be “FREEDOM FROM OBSTRUCTION, INTERFERENCE, INTI- prepared to move the appropriate motion. MIDATION AND MOLESTATION”, it states: Hon. Rob Nicholson (Leader of the Government in the House Members are entitled to go about their parliamentary business undisturbed. The assaulting, menacing, or insulting of any Member on the floor of the House or while of Commons and Minister for Democratic Reform, CPC): Mr. he is coming or going to or from the House, or an account of his behaviour during a Speaker, I will certainly raise this matter with the hon. member for proceeding in Parliament, is a violation of the rights of Parliament. Any form of Nepean—Carleton, but you have been around long enough to know intimidation...of a person for or on account of his behaviour during a proceeding in that there are usually two sides to every story. Parliament could amount to contempt. I refer further to dealing with a matter of privilege. On page 121 of I know the hon. member in question is a responsible individual Marleau and Montpetit it states: and, quite frankly, if the hon. member was going to raise this, it might have been a courtesy to let the individual know that this was The House of Commons is certainly the most important secular body in Canada. It is said that each House of Parliament is a “court” with respect to its own being raised at this particular time. However, I will certainly inform privileges and dignity and the privileges of its Members. The purpose of raising him of the fact that this has now taken place in the House. matters of “privilege” in either House of Parliament is to maintain the respect and credibility due to and required of each House in respect of these privileges, to uphold Again, there are two sides to every story. The hon. member for its powers, and to enforce the enjoyment of the privileges of its Members. Nepean—Carleton is a very responsible member of this caucus and of this government and I am quite sure he will have something to say That includes the freedom of speech. on this matter. A genuine question of privilege is therefore a serious matter not to be reckoned with lightly and accordingly ought to be rare, and thus rarely raised in the House of ● (1015) Commons. The Speaker: The Chair will take the matter under advisement Finally, Marleau and Montpetit, in guiding members with regard and get back to the House in respect of this alleged breach of to matters occurring in the House, said that a complaint on a matter privilege in due course and we will deal with the matter then. of privilege must satisfy two conditions before it can be accorded precedence over orders of the day. First, the Speaker must be convinced that a prima facie case of breach of privilege has been GOVERNMENT ORDERS made, and second, that the matter must be raised at the earliest opportunity. [Translation] Dealing with the second matter first, as I indicated, this matter BUSINESS OF SUPPLY happened yesterday during debates at approximately 5:25 p.m., just OPPOSITION MOTION—FOR OLDER WORKERS INCOME SUPPORT prior to the sounding of the bells for recorded divisions, at which time I rose on a point of order due to relevance. Mr. Michel Guimond (Montmorency—Charlevoix—Haute- Côte-Nord, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I believe that you would find Mr. Speaker, at that point I was approached by the member for unanimous consent in the House for the following motion. All Nepean—Carleton who had crossed the floor and came to my desk. parties agree: October 5, 2006 COMMONS DEBATES 3677

Business of Supply That, at the conclusion of today's debate on the opposition motion in the name of participate to the same degree as in previous years, that is, to the member for Chambly—Borduas, all questions necessary to dispose of the motion contribute 30%. The federal government would therefore contribute be deemed put and a recorded division deemed requested and deferred until Monday, October 16, 2006, at the expiry of the time provided for government orders. 70%. This program is actually not that expensive. We are disconcerted by the Conservative government's callous The Speaker: Does the hon. member for Montmorency— attitude toward complaints voiced by workers, workers' representa- Charlevoix—Haute-Côte-Nord have the unanimous consent of the tives, and the Bloc Québécois in its attempts to correct this grave House to move this motion? injustice.

Some hon. members: Agreed. I emphasize also that this program must deal with older workers The Speaker: The House has heard the terms of the motion. Is it who cannot be retrained or who have not been retrained. If a person the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? works in the same trade all his or her life and is a specialist and that occupation disappears when the person is 55 or older, that involves Some hon. members: Agreed. learning difficulties. But above all—given the length of time that (Motion agreed to) person can expect to remain in the labour market—this situation Mr. Yves Lessard (Chambly—Borduas, BQ) moved: discourages employers from investing in helping someone to qualify for a new job. That represents an additional problem for older That the House reiterate to the government the importance of implementing a real income support program for older workers that would apply to all older workers in all workers. economic sectors, in all regions. ● (1020) He said: Mr. Speaker, the matter at hand today is a most important one. It will attract the attention of all workers. Management is also In historical terms, as I was saying earlier, this program, which affected to a considerable extent by the layoffs currently experienced was in existence from 1988 to 1997 was shared-cost. In 1996, the across the country. In addition, our attention is drawn to the situation year before the program was abolished, 11,700 people participating in Quebec in particular. in this program had been involved in 900 group layoffs. In every area of activity and every region, older workers who have At the time, the program cost the federal government a paltry $17 the misfortune of losing their job past the age of 50 or past the more million. Out of the then $17 billion budget, $17 million represented vulnerable age of 55 are facing a major problem. only a small slice; in fact, 1% of the total. This morning, I have the honour of moving the Bloc Québécois Even today, it is impossible to understand that they acted in that motion asking that the House vote on the following motion: way in the past and that previous governments and the current That the House reiterate to the government the importance of implementing a real government have not corrected this injustice, as I mentioned earlier. income support program for older workers that would apply to all older workers in all economic sectors, in all regions. Concerning the difficulty of finding new employment, in 2004, We were careful to specify that this would apply to all older the Employment Insurance Commission released statistics for 2004- workers in all economic sectors, in all regions, because over the past 2005 indicating a low rate of unemployment due to the economic few days, the government has indicated its intention to target specific recovery. Granted there was a low unemployment rate, but let us regions and sectors for limited periods of time. This would be very look at the percentages. Older workers are over-represented among inconvenient, because once again, the work would be done in a the long-term unemployed. Older workers accounted for 21.3% of selective, arbitrary, and, above all, discriminatory manner. the long-term unemployed group, while they made up only 12.5 per cent of the active workforce. In terms of unemployed workers, that When people lose their jobs, it makes no difference whether they group had double its rate of representation in the active workforce. are in regions with lower unemployment rates. The fact that your That is because they have a hard time finding new employment, as I neighbour is working will not pay your bills. indicated previously.

This program has already been in operation and has proven its Let us talk about pilot projects. The attitude of the current value. It was implemented in 1988 and ran until 1997. The Liberal government is directly opposite to our approach. There are two government of the day cut it in 1997 in a blind move with no regard factors to consider. First, pilot projects enable workers to be trained for the negative impact on the workers affected. in order to find new work opportunities. However, the opportunities The Bloc Québécois finds it inexcusable that the federal offered to these workers seldom relate to the work skills they have government, the current government, is also taking its sweet time developed over the years. That makes it even more difficult for them implementing this program. to gain access to that training. The Speech from the Throne emphasized the importance of re- Furthermore, fewer than 4% of all those trained in these pilot introducing the program for older worker adjustment (POWA). The projects manage to find stable employment again. Of course they can $100 million allocated in the budget and announced by the Prime find small jobs and also end up in situations much more difficult in Minister himself sent a clear signal that the current government terms of working conditions than they had before. As far as intended to re-introduce the program. A unanimous motion in the comparable employment goes, though, or at least permanent Quebec National Assembly invited the Government of Canada to re- employment, fewer than 4% are successful. Which means that this introduce this program and indicated that Quebec was prepared to is not the solution. 3678 COMMONS DEBATES October 5, 2006

Business of Supply The second thing the Conservative government tells us is that setting examples of democracy for other peoples. Perhaps we could studies are being done. There is something a bit confusing in this start by setting an example in practice. House. When the government changes, it is as though nothing had ever been done before. Moreover, last year, the Standing Committee on Human Resources, Social Development and the Status of Persons with Before, during the Liberal régime, we heard the same argument: Disabilities—then known as the Standing Committee on Human studies are being done. At the Standing Committee on Human Resources, Skills Development, Social Development and the Status Resources and Social Development, we have received a good share of Persons with Disabilities—made 28 recommendations to this of these studies, as well as all the studies concerning POWA. House after conducting a long and well-done process with consultations, etc. None of these recommendations has been acted How is it that the current government has not been able to access on. And they included POWA, the program for older worker these studies? Our sources are good sources; they are government adjustment. sources. We have used these sources to develop our position—as have other of society’s stakeholders, particularly the central labour bodies. I have spoken up to now about POWA, because that is what it was called. But we have to adapt it to today's reality. Some things have ● (1025) changed, and that is why we should now call it the “income support program for older workers”, because there are already training The major labour federations in Quebec have developed a programs for labour market integration. common position in this regard. So the government experts and our studies, as well as those conducted by the federations, show first ● (1030) of all that the past experience has been an entirely positive one and that the program was fully justified. In fact it may have been one of It is important to draw this distinction so that the government the most successful programs. stops shirking its responsibility for income support for these people by falling back on training. As far as the situation in industry is concerned—whether the textile, clothing, footwear or now the lumber industry, to name but a Insofar as the insecurity of current labour markets is concerned, it few—the experience of recent years shows that this program is still seems that only one party in the House can see what is really necessary. happening. Apparently, it is only when a government, a political Also, as far as job losses are concerned, the worst-case scenario party, is beaten that it starts to see what is really happening, as if would be for this program to cost $50 million the first year and then being beaten is clarifying. $75 million in subsequent years. Naturally the cost of living evolves. It has to be provided for. Still I remind you that this is the worst-case For at least four years now, the Bloc has been constantly pointing scenario. out the difficulties facing industry, the manufacturing industry in particular but other industries as well. The Bloc has been constantly So we do not understand why the government is still doing asking the government to take appropriate action to ensure that studies, when all the data are on the table for a decision to be made. employment is maintained at a maximum in the face of the push and Regarding the difficulty of finding work for older people, I would pull on international markets. point out that 39.1%—so about 40%—of older workers in the labour force have not completed their high school education, compared to Some countries have instituted controls. This government has 18% among workers aged 25 to 54. This is a further difficulty. done nothing. In the final analysis, it did nothing to protect workers when they lost their jobs, just as it did nothing to protect their jobs in Let us look again briefly at the costs, but this time in terms of the first place. It is disgraceful. benefits. The program was revised in 1993. The latest data show that under POWA at the time, people were receiving between $760 and Look at the people at Whirlpool in Rivière-du-Loup, the textile $1,000 in benefits, depending on their income. workers in Huntingdon, the lumber workers in Lanaudière, the workers in the sawmills and in pulp and paper in Mont-Laurier, in I have briefly described the history of the program and the recent northwestern Quebec in Saguenay—Lac-Saint-Jean or Ville de La history of job losses. I said earlier that the throne speech stated that Baie,. Hundreds of people have lost their jobs. Some 20% to 22% of POWA should be reinstated. This was also mentioned in the budget. them were over 55 years old. Nevertheless, on June 9, 2005, I had the honour of presenting in this House a Bloc Québécois motion that received unanimous I am emphasizing Saguenay—Lac-Saint-Jean more because a support. Yet the Liberal Party, which was in power then, never acted leading member of Parliament who is also a minister sits here in the on the motion or put it into effect. And the Conservative government House of Commons. When he was getting himself elected, he said, —which is still the government in this House—has not acted on the like his colleagues in Quebec, that the Bloc could not do anything motion either, despite making two additional commitments since but the Conservatives would deal with all that when they came to Parliament resumed. power. Ever since taking power, though, they have been running away from their responsibilities. They cannot even go and meet with In my opinion, this is unacceptable and scandalous, even from the these workers. We are the only people who are willing to meet with standpoint of democracy. Here in the House, we often talk about them now. October 5, 2006 COMMONS DEBATES 3679

Business of Supply In the footwear sector in Quebec City, Chaussures Régence and found permanent employment, why is the member calling for the Chaussures St-Émile are in the riding of Charlesbourg—Haute- reinstatement of these programs? Saint-Charles. One of our eminent colleagues—a man who was [Translation] highly thought of by the House and got some major legislation through—was defeated. That is what happens in a democracy. But Mr. Yves Lessard: Mr. Speaker, that is a very good question. why was he defeated? Because the Conservative candidate said that once the Conservatives were in power, they would take care of all First, we have to keep in mind that these people are over 55 and that. So what have they taken care of so far? Nothing. Still they try to are looking for new jobs. delude people. That too is odious. They tell people that they will take care of this or that specifically for them. But things cannot be done We also have to keep in mind that the four per cent consists of piecemeal. They need to pay some attention. people who were able to find permanent, worthwhile jobs, like they had before. I just came back from touring through nearly all the regions of Quebec. In the Gaspésie and Îles-de-la-Madeleine, people find People who are eligible for income support for older workers will themselves in an incredible situation now because of the fishing continue to look for work. The ones who are able to work will then industry. This cannot go on. stop receiving benefits. First, they have to be capable of working. There are some individuals, however, who will not be able to qualify This is not a complicated measure. We just have to adopt this for new jobs. They must be given ongoing support. motion. If the Conservative government needs our backing, that is what we will give them. However, they must take it and they must Of course when you are young, like the member, it is different. He vote with us. In other words, they have to walk the talk. still has many good years ahead of him. He will be able to find a new job, with his skills and his talent, among other things, when he is no They must stop deluding people. It is time to take action and longer here in the House of Commons—in other words, after the implement the income support program for older workers as soon as next election, probably. Still, when he reaches the age of 55 and if he possible. This is urgent and has been urgent for some time. Indeed, does not have work then, he is going to find that it is pretty hard to for years now, people have been forced into poverty. They have been find a job. That is a very different thing. left without assistance. They must be given the help they need to pull through, which is what they deserve. In the end, they need every To conclude, I would point out that we are not talking about a fast little bit they earn just to eat. Many have been forced to sell their track for getting an income between the ages of 55 and 65, we are house in order to survive, even though they have spent their whole talking about providing support for people who are unable to find lives working just to have a home. new jobs, to enable them to manage until they get their Income Security pension. ● (1035) ● (1040) In conclusion, I call upon all legislators and parliamentarians here [English] today to do the right thing so that tomorrow, each and every one of us—everyone, Mr. Speaker—can return to our ridings and say that Mr. Sukh Dhaliwal (Newton—North Delta, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, we did our job and that we took action to help these people, because I would like to congratulate the hon. member for standing up for the existing program costs $50 million out of a budget of $16 billion. older workers, who are the productive part of Canadian society. It is such a small amount. Furthermore, we do not want the money to be taken from the employment insurance fund because those people I am in support of quality programs that meet the needs of all of are leaving the workforce and society owes them this recognition, at Canada's older workers. The government has to develop a pan- least. Canadian strategy that would incorporate skills upgrading, flexible work environments, and training with job placements. Since the [English] minority Conservative government has come into power, it has done Mr. Dave Batters (Palliser, CPC): Mr. Speaker, I listened to the nothing for older workers. Instead, it has given lip service, nothing member's speech with great interest. Let there be no doubt that else. In fact, it has cut programs for older workers. I am troubled within that realm this government's priority is to assist those older with that member supporting the budget when there was nothing workers seeking employment. We want them to find and retain jobs. mentioned for assisting older workers. Our government is focused on providing older workers with the tools they need to remain employable. We support retraining for older Mr. Dave Batters: Everyone supported the budget. You workers and efforts to ease their transition into new employment. unanimously supported it. The member made a comment in his speech about older workers Mr. Sukh Dhaliwal: I can read it clearly, Mr. Speaker. The who had gone through older worker pilot projects. He said that only government cut $17 million from workplace skills. It has also taken 4% of these individuals had found permanent jobs. I am going to funds away from literacy programs that are needed. As the hon. check with the minister, but I find that really surprising and tough to member mentioned, 40% of older people have no skills in reading or believe. I would not be surprised if this government would reject that writing because they did not go to school. The minority— figure. He said that 4% had found permanent jobs, yet he is asking Some hon. members: Oh, oh! for the reinstatement of these programs. I am a bit perplexed. If only 4% of the people who have gone through these pilot projects have The Deputy Speaker: Order, please. 3680 COMMONS DEBATES October 5, 2006

Business of Supply The hon. member can sit down when I am standing. The hon. Just because the Conservative government changed this entitle- member has had a lot of time to put his question and it is time for the ment, should we throw the baby out with the bath water—that is, answer. The hon. member for Chambly—Borduas. should we vote against this agreement and make things worse for the [Translation] industry since what was negotiated was not right? A good number of companies have had to close their doors. For example, tens of Mr. Yves Lessard: Mr. Speaker, I am disappointed that this kind thousands of sawmill workers were laid off. Is it their desire and ours of demagoguery would be exhibited here, this morning. to see that the remaining workers be laid off? The industry and the unions talked to us about this. My colleague and her party are very We have to make a distinction between the budget and the cuts close to the unions. In Quebec and throughout the country, the that were announced last week. None of those cuts was included in people have said that we must support the agreement. We represent the budget. We are categorically opposed to the cuts announced last these citizens. The people, the unions and the companies have told week. My colleague’s comment is entirely inappropriate and is not us to vote in favour of the agreement, or it will be the end of them. consistent with the truth. Municipalities and municipal authorities also told us that without it I will not revisit the nature of our support for this transitional they will have to shut down villages. budget, which brings in changes concerning the fiscal imbalance. The government is going to have to deliver the goods. When it It does not bother us at all to vote for an imperfect agreement comes to the cuts announced last week, they were not in the throne because it is in the best interests of the people we represent. speech. [English] I would have liked the member to tell us whether he will support Hon. Diane Finley (Minister of Human Resources and Social the motion and whether he will urge his colleagues to take a different Development, CPC): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to be splitting my attitude from the one they took when they were in power, and time today with the hon. member for Mégantic—L'Érable. whether he will join with us in calling on the government to implement an income support program for older workers as quickly I am very pleased to rise today to respond to the motion from the as possible. hon. member for Chambly—Borduas. ● (1045) As the Minister of Human Resources and Social Development, I [English] know that Canadians can draw strength from the fact that Canada is Ms. Dawn Black (New Westminster—Coquitlam, NDP): Mr. near the top again this year in terms of job growth among G-7 and Speaker, I listened to my colleague across with great interest and OECD countries. Our unemployment rate of 6.5% in August was agree with much of what he said about support for displaced one of the lowest in the last 30 years. Job gains have occurred in workers. It is something that needs to be done, but I have a question every region and across all age groups right across this country. that flows from that support for displaced workers. However, I do share the member's concern for the situation that I am surprised that your political party is supporting the softwood older workers face when they are suddenly left without work, due to deal with the U.S. that the Conservative government has put plant closures, downsizing or other economic circumstances beyond forward, because we all know that in my community and in their control. communities across Quebec there will be lots of displaced workers due to that softwood agreement. Yet you are supporting that The hon. member's motion includes all economic sectors in all agreement, so I see an inherent— regions, but we know that the problem is especially acute for older The Deputy Speaker: Order, please. The hon. member has twice workers in small communities that depend on a single industry for used the second person. It is “his party”, not “your party”. I wonder their livelihood. This particularly affects workers in sectors such as if the hon. member could remember that rule. forestry, fishing, mining and textiles.

Ms. Dawn Black: I apologize, Mr. Speaker. For older workers, the challenges that losing their job presents are My question for the hon. member is, how can he support this especially tough. Throughout their working lives, these people have agreement when it in turn will bring more and more displaced been self-reliant and independent. They have worked hard at their workers to every region of Canada, including Quebec? jobs day by day. They have been saving up for their retirement. Then, before their plans are in place, hard times hit their place of [Translation] employment. Mr. Yves Lessard: Mr. Speaker, the facts are the facts. In many small towns, when the major employer lays off workers, We did not negotiate the agreement. Once the agreement is the entire community is affected. Often, the older workers need a few negotiated, the stakeholders—the people in the industry—must tell more years of income before they can retire. What do they do now? us what they think of it. We must also determine what impact the Do they rely upon their retirement savings until their pension kicks difference will have on what they are entitled to. They are entitled to in? Do they sell their house or take out a new mortgage, which is receive all amounts withheld by the American government. The pretty tough to do when they don't have a job? Or do they try to find Conservative government changed this entitlement in the agreement. another line of work? But, then, how would they learn the new We recognize that. skills? October 5, 2006 COMMONS DEBATES 3681

Business of Supply These are hard choices for people who have worked all their lives We have a very solid foundation to build on assisting older trying to build security for their families. We all share a concern for workers reintegrate into the workforce. The Government of Canada the plight of displaced older workers in situations like this. has the benefit of drawing from lessons learned from the older worker pilot project initiative that concluded in May of this year. In responding to the motion from the hon. member for Chambly— Borduas, we must ask ourselves: What is the best solution? Is an Let me share with the House some of the lessons that we learned early retirement program the answer; and if so, would that solution from that. We found that the most successful pilot projects are those suit the needs of Canada's labour market, or even that of the local that combine employment assistance services with some form of economy? training, marketing and work experience. As well, we found that it is important for the programs to be flexible. One size does not fit all. An income support program, such as the hon. member proposes, The best programs allow attention to individual situations and needs, would essentially remove all older workers from the workforce now including the skills of older workers, specific labour market and in the future. This removal would be premature and detrimental conditions and the identification of opportunities that exist in to the workers, and to Canada's labour market. specific cities, towns or regions.

Older workers have become the principal source of labour growth Programs must provide enough time for displaced older workers in recent years. Since late 2002, it accounted for over half the to learn new skills. The training must be practical and relevant to the employment growth in Canada and increases in older worker participants. There are indeed potential new careers for those participation have become the major driver of increases in the overall displaced older workers, careers that take advantage of their lifetime Canadian participation rate. As the Canadian population ages, experience and interests, careers that can help older workers take encouraging older worker participation will play a very important pride in the way that they continue to build the economy of their role in meeting employment demand. communities, and careers that provide self-reliance. It is important to identify the new careers that are most relevant and realistic for older Simply put, Canada cannot at this time afford to pension off workers on a case by case basis. workers who are valuable and all too often an unrecognized asset. Rather, any intervention should be geared to providing those workers In the meantime, contrary to what the hon. member opposite with the tools they need to remain employable and should not act as would have us believe, we have many programs to help those who a disincentive to labour market participation, relocation or the pursuit find themselves without work. Displaced older workers are taking of skills upgrading. advantage of our active employment benefits under part II of the employment insurance program. This helps them find and maintain Canada's economy needs the skills, the experience and the new employment by increasing their skills, gaining work experience, expertise of all older workers. We need the perspective they bring getting job counselling and job placement services, and accessing from a lifetime in the workforce. This is especially true for smaller labour market information. and medium-sized businesses that often have a hard time finding people, and these businesses are the engine of our Canadian Do members know that last year over 80,000 workers over 50 economy. years of age participated in employment insurance part II programming? In addition, close to 230,000 workers received $1.4 Canada is not the only country that faces these challenges. In fact, billion in employment insurance part I programming. We are not the OECD has recently reviewed the situation facing older workers saying that this is the only solution for these workers. In fact, we in the industrialized world. It points out that with the demographics have committed to take the time and put in the effort required to of an aging society, economies need to keep older workers in the identify the best solutions for displaced older workers in today's workforce to ensure growth and prosperity in a period like we are labour market. facing now, of shrinking labour supply. In fact, the OECD advises against early retirement programs and against any other type of Until the results of the feasibility study are known, we should not program structure that would lead to and encourage early retirement. limit our range of options. That is why I cannot vote in favour of the hon. member's motion as it is written no matter how much I share his ● (1050) concerns. We need programs that keep older workers as active In the budget last May, Canada's new government committed to participants in the Canadian economy. We need programs that can be examining ways to help displaced older workers. We promised to flexible enough to meet the needs of different individuals and undertake a feasibility study to evaluate current and potential communities. We need to take advantage of what we have learned measures to assist older workers in the Canadian workforce. This about what kinds of programs work and which programs do not. study will examine a number of options and will involve I urge hon. members to join me in voting down this motion as consultations with provinces and territories, stakeholder groups worded. and experts from across Canada. ● (1055) The options examined may well include early retirement benefits which would be along the lines of the suggestions of the hon. [Translation] member for Chambly—Borduas, but there are other options. There Mr. Yves Lessard (Chambly—Borduas, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I are other ways to help older workers while ensuring that they remain thank the hon. minister for presenting her position on the motion in a vital force in the economy. such a clear manner. 3682 COMMONS DEBATES October 5, 2006

Business of Supply I think the minister would agree that what we heard this morning education. No more now. They can go to the University of Calgary is still rhetoric about training. Providing training and reintegrating or somewhere else if they leave East Pubnico, but if they are going to these older workers in the labour market will contribute to the be in western rural parts of the country, the minister should be Canadian economy. I agree. We agree. ashamed of her cabinet colleagues. She should fight a lot harder for people who need the assistance of the government. For people who are able to work and to retrain this is not a problem. We do not deny that. But we are talking about people who are unable to retrain or, for one reason or another, cannot work even Hon. Diane Finley: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member needs to go if they have retrained. back and review some of the facts because he is frankly quite wrong in much of what he said. We have to realize that in the country of Canada, and in the future country of Quebec, there is a stark reality: there are people over 55 who cannot find new employment. One of our early actions as a new government was to bring in the seasonal workers pilot project to help the very seasonal workers to I want to know if the Minister of Human Resources and Social whom he refers, five week pilot projects to enhance the benefits for Development recognizes that. If so, will she vote in favour of the the unemployed who work in seasonal jobs. motion? [English] Hon. Diane Finley: Mr. Speaker, we recognize that older workers We are also spending over $2 billion in workplace skills who have been displaced really face many challenges, there is no development, over $80 million in literacy programs, as well as over doubt about that. That is why we are committed to our feasibility $300 million to help new Canadians get the skills they need in this study because we do not want to rush in with some quick fix market, all of the things which the hon. member voted against. solution, some haphazard program that may or may not work. We want to take advantage of all of the lessons that have been learned [Translation] and even develop some new ones, so that we can build programs that will work in the long term. Mr. Christian Paradis (Parliamentary Secretary to the It is really important to note that Canada's demand for labour is Minister of Natural Resources, CPC): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased just the opposite of what it was in the 1990s. In the 1990s, there were to take part in the debate in this House on the opposition member's way too many people for way too few jobs. Today's market and motion on support measures for older workers that would apply to all going forward 10 years at least, we will be facing just the opposite older workers in all economic sectors, in all regions. where there will be way too few people in our country for too many jobs. It is an honour for me to share my time with the Minister of We have to take advantage of the people who are here to fill those Human Resources and Social Development. I would like to take this jobs. Quite frankly, the older workforce, 55 plus, are the single best opportunity to acknowledge her excellent work. pool of talent and we have to tap into it. We cannot afford as a country to keep older workers out of the labour market. We must encourage their participation in every way possible. Allow me first to point out that Canada's new government holds ● (1100) older workers and their contribution to society in the highest regard. Hon. Robert Thibault (West Nova, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the We are well aware that we owe them a great deal not just for their minister speaks a good game, but she must be disappointed with the past contribution, but also for their current and future contribution to complete lack of support that she has been receiving from her the labour market and to our well-being. Generations before us have cabinet colleagues. She must be disappointed that the tools she needs shaped the Canada we know and love today and we are extremely to accomplish what she professes have been eliminated, reduced and grateful to them for that. slashed. She talks about the retraining of seasonally unemployed elderly The contribution of all Canadians is essential to our collective workers, in most cases workers that are 55 to 65 years of age. Three well-being. As hon. members know, Canada, like all the indus- months into the fiscal year in my riding there was no money for the trialized countries, is facing an aging population. In fact, by 2020, retraining of those people. Some of them, we recognize, need basic the number of people between 55 and 64 will increase by 50%. skills before they can reintegrate into new professions or new jobs. Literacy programs, the most important and the basic fundamental building block to learning a trade, have been removed and slashed. On the one hand, life expectancy is on the rise, and on the other, people are healthier and are remaining active. They can and want to If the Conservatives want to do research in the rural part of this continue contributing to society longer than before. More and more, country, where most of the seasonally unemployed are, they cannot Canadians are returning to work after retiring or are embarking on a even go to a CAP site in the future because it has been eliminated. new career after age 55. They still have a lot to give and dreams and That is how people were able to do their own training. That is how goals to fulfil. What is more, they want to go on working in order to they were able to do job searches. That is how they continued their share their experience with other members of their community. October 5, 2006 COMMONS DEBATES 3683

Business of Supply All this comes at a good time, because we need these people. We Furthermore, almost 230,000 older workers each year receive need their experience and their valuable advice. We need their some $1.4 billion under EI program. expertise and their wisdom. They have enormous potential that is just waiting to be tapped. Older workers between 55 and 64 are the ● (1105) largest potential source of future growth in the available workforce. What is more, our government is committed to spending $400 We must therefore work to increase their labour force participation. million during the next two years to improve the long-term If we want to maintain our standard of living, if we want to competitiveness of the forestry sector. continue to prosper as a nation, we have to make the most of the potential of all Canadians. The growth in the labour force over the Naturally, the other tax measures announced in the budget will past few years can be attributed mainly to older workers. Since the help older workers as much as all other Canadians. end of 2002, these workers have accounted for half the growth in Finally, we are concerned about the welfare of all Canadians and employment in Canada, and their increased participation in the of older workers in particular. Because they have specific needs, we labour force is now the main reason for the increase in Canada's will develop specific solutions. We will ensure that the programs we overall participation rate. In other words, today, Canada simply propose meet their needs and that they will be able to reintegrate into cannot allow itself to retire workers who are considered redundant. the labour market and continue to contribute to the development of At the same time, we have to find solutions to the shortages of our beautiful country, Canada. workers in a number of economic sectors. Tradespeople, for Mr. Yves Lessard (Chambly—Borduas, BQ): Mr. Speaker, we example, are a rare commodity in some parts of the country, are talking here about people for whom new jobs cannot be found including my own riding, Mégantic—L'Érable. And this situation and my colleague is talking about people who are working. This is will only get worse in years to come. like talking about a street when someone else was talking about the bridge. We are talking about people who cannot find new jobs. Is my Yet we know that there are thousands of older workers who are colleague aware that there are miners in his region who have lost losing their jobs—often the only job they have had in their life— their jobs? His predecessor, Marc Boulianne, was well aware of it. because of plant closures or a slowdown in a particular industry. Those workers, who are over 55, have had to sacrifice their homes in Unfortunately, remote areas and those that depend on a small number order to get by. Does he know that in his riding textile workers have of industries are hit hardest. lost their jobs and are in the same situation as the miners? Does he know that in the woodworking industry—a furniture manufacturer— We have seen compelling examples in Quebec in the textile, there are workers who have lost their jobs? Does he know this? forestry and fishery sectors. We are aware of this situation and we Those workers are 55 or over and cannot find new jobs. Does he firmly intend to continue our efforts to help older workers to know this? Those are the people we are talking about. Once he is reintegrate into the labour market. aware of this and sees that they cannot find new jobs, will he vote in favour of the motion? However, we do not want to adopt temporary, off the cuff measures. No, first, we want to make an overall evaluation of the ● (1110) situation of older people with our partners in the provinces and territories in order to identify possible solutions. Older workers have Mr. Christian Paradis: Mr. Speaker, with all due respect to my special needs that call for specific answers. We do not want to bungle hon. colleague, he has plainly failed to grasp the thrust of my speech. the job. What we are saying is that there a number of things that need to be In the 2006 budget, our new government has made a commitment done about this program. I have personally visited plants in my to help those Canadians who are most affected by the impacts of the riding that are experiencing a workforce shortage. Those plants want global economy, including older workers. As is mentioned in the to expand, but they cannot do that because they do not have the budget, we are going to conduct a feasibility study with the workers they need. Workers must be mobilized to fill that need. participation of the provinces and territories to evaluate the measures now available or that could be available to older workers who have There are industries that are more heavily hit and industries where been laid off to help them overcome these difficulties. It could people cannot find new jobs. Nowhere in my speech did I say that involve improved training or increased income support, through we disagreed with this. early retirement benefits for example. Nothing has been decided or discarded at this time. Everything will be taken into account. What has to be done, instead of having improvised measures like my colleague tends to say, is to do feasibility studies, studies in the In the meantime, older workers have not been forgotten. They field to find a system that works as a whole, not a program that will continue to benefit from numerous existing programs, such as Part II be cut as the previous government did. We need a program that of the employment insurance plan. In that regard, each year more works, a viable program that will be effective for all older workers, than 80,000 older workers, men and women age 50 or older, benefit and I do mean all older workers. from job programs funded through the employment insurance act. [English] For instance they are eligible for training programs, can acquire work experience and obtain financial assistance for starting their Hon. Shawn Murphy (Charlottetown, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I am own business. a little confused and I do need some clarification from the member. 3684 COMMONS DEBATES October 5, 2006

Business of Supply As the member is aware, this is not the first time this motion has before acting. That is what the (Minister of Human Resources and been debated in the House. On June 9 of last year a very similar Social Development) said. Studies will help her determine the motion was put forward to the House by the Bloc Québécois, and specific realities facing each region and each sector. members of the Conservative Party spoke eloquently and forcefully in support of the motion. We want to implement a program without worrying about it being I listened to the member's speech and am not getting that same cut, which is what happened before. My colleague just listed some clarity today. He talks about an evaluation study. Of course at the end examples. We are familiar with these examples. We are out there and of the day on June 9, 2005, the Conservative Party supported the we know what is happening. Now we have to compile the motion, as I did myself. I am not sensing that today. Do I take it that information and create a program that will work and be viable. on June 9 the party very forcefully supported the motion and from your comments now you are not supporting the motion? If that is the case, which is very— ● (1115) The Deputy Speaker: Order, please. Again, the hon. member is using the second person. [English] We have a lot of people who wish to speak. The hon. member for Mégantic—L'Érable Hon. Shawn Murphy (Charlottetown, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, at the outset, I support the motion, however, when the government [Translation] implements it, I want it to look at it as a comprehensive strategy Mr. Christian Paradis: Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for his involving other issues related to the matter. I assume the motion will question. pass because, as I indicated in a previous question, a very similar motion was debated by the House on June 9, 2005, and all parties On the contrary, this party is committed to assisting older workers unanimously supported it. I would be shocked and surprised if all at this time. That is what was said in the budget and that is what is members did not support the motion today. being done at this time. The government is in the process of implementing a functional system. Before that, an analysis must be done, studies must be done. Programs cannot be established helter- However, there are two aspects about which I want to talk. We skelter. have to be very careful in implementing the motion. I suggest and urge the government not to add an additional disincentive to our If we look at the past we see that the previous government slashed support system, to a workforce attachment right now. assistance measures for older workers. We know that there is a huge problem in this area. At present, measures are in place but we know that they are not adequate. There is more than one kind of older First, I urge the government, in its implementation process, to look worker, but what is being done is to try to put them all in the same carefully at the income support measures. This matter will require box, as my colleague is doing. We are aiming for effectiveness. We very close consultation with the provinces. I see a real gap in the want a program that will be viable and that will work for the people income support measure for those people between 55 and 65 years of who most need the benefits. There is unanimous agreement in this age. House. We want to solve the problem as it relates to older workers. Mr. Louis Plamondon (Bas-Richelieu—Nicolet—Bécancour, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I am surprised at my colleague's answer. He said I neglected to say, Mr. Speaker, that I will be splitting my time that he is looking for a solution, but POWA was one of the best and with the member of Parliament for West Nova. most appreciated solutions while it was running. During that time, the program worked very well. For example, in I believe the government, as part of this process, should look at my riding, the program was helpful when Marine Industrie, Beloit the income support measures for those between 55 and 65 years of and Tioxide closed. It was also useful when small sewing workshops age. I see a very large gap there. Currently, when people attain the closed in the Saint-Ours, Yamaska and Pierreville regions. age of 65, they are eligible for the guaranteed income supplement. It is not perfect. One does not live in any kind of luxury, but it is an Today, the possible closure of Norsk Hydro was announced. What awful lot better than the income support measures for those people am I supposed to tell those people when they ask me if there will be between 55 and 65. A lot of them do not have pensions, they are not a program to assist workers over 55 who have no chance of finding eligible for the Canada pension plan and they are unable to work for another job? Of course, if they can go back to school, if they can a whole host of reasons. It may be for health reasons or they may be change careers, we will encourage them to do so. However, it is clear unable to find a job. This is one issue that has to be looked at very that they have no opportunities and lack resources. What am I closely as the motion is implemented. supposed to tell them when they ask me if there will be a program to assist them? Will I have to tell them what the member opposite just told us, that they are studying the matter? People do not want Another issue has to be aligned with the motion, and that is a very studies, they want action. comprehensive older worker strategy for Canada. We are looking at, Mr. Christian Paradis: Mr. Speaker, it is the government's and it has been referred to I believe by the minister, a demographic foremost responsibility to have all of the necessary information time bomb in Canada. We are looking at an acute worker shortage. October 5, 2006 COMMONS DEBATES 3685

Business of Supply This whole debate has been turned upside down over the last 15 especially older workers of lower income, to stay in the workplace. years. Fifteen years ago I would have been in Parliament urging Probably one of the most important public policy initiatives a people in public policy to implement programs to perhaps take some government should look at is some of the benefit policies. of our older workers out of the workforce to make way for the 21 and 22 year olds who were looking for jobs. That is not the case If I may give an example, right now probably many people over now, especially in the skilled worker sector. 65 years of age are receiving the guaranteed income supplement. All sector councils across Canada have the big issue of a skilled They probably have no interest in working full time, but may be worker shortage. The construction industry is looking for 150,000 interested in working part time. They may be interested in working new workers over the next 10 years. The mining industry is looking 10 hours a week and making $100 or $200. However, the way our for 81,000 new workers; trucking, 40,000; and tourism, 333,000. system is, they would be almost penalized dollar for dollar, which is The manufacturing industry is also looking for new workers. The list a very strong disincentive for them to work. That has to be looked at goes on and on. part of an older worker strategy.

This is very serious issue for governments at all levels. It will Another area that has to be looked at is our collective agreements cause problems with our productivity and for our industries. It will to accommodate certain older workers who want to get back into a result in workforce instability and it will drive up wage costs. In turn unionized environment. Right now it does not lend itself to that shift. that will drive up the costs of projects and manufacturing goods. That will aid in an element of inflation in our system if it is not there Again, I mentioned about five or six different items and this has already. Once we have that, interest rates will rise. As everyone to form part of a strategy and it has to be a culture shift. It was not knows, that will have a very cumulative negative effect in our there 15 years ago, but it has to be here now. I should point that if it economy. It will be good in the short term, but in the long term it will were successfully implemented, even that would only postpone a have very severe and negative consequences for us as a society. We problem. It will not solve a problem because it would eventually can see that going on right now in certain areas of Canada. If it is catch up to us. allowed to continue, it will have negative repercussions. ● (1120) Some of the points I have raised are peripheral to the issue, but I If a country wants to deal with this issue, there are only certain support the motion. I believe and urge the government to implement strategies. Immigration is one of those strategies. I believe the the motion, but it should do so as part of the larger package previous government was trying to increase the number of skilled involving income support for those citizens between 55 and 65 years workers coming to the country. There have been some successes, but of age. It should be a very comprehensive well thought out older again we are competing in a world where a lot of other countries, worker strategy. especially the European countries, are having the very same problems we are having. It is a very competitive field out there, ● (1125) looking for skilled and educated immigrants. Ms. Chris Charlton (Hamilton Mountain, NDP): Mr. Speaker, I We could attempt to increase the participation rate, but again this listened with great interest to the member's comments and his country's participation rate is reasonably high in international support, both for income support for older workers and for some of comparison. The birth rate, as everyone here knows, is approxi- the adjustment programs that need to be part and parcel of a larger mately 1.41%. That is considerably below the replacement rate, package. I know the member was elected first in the year 2000. Did probably two-thirds of the replacement rate. Again, as the he advocated for those same programs at any time during the demographics suggest, at a certain point in time, I believe 2011, mandate of the Liberals when they had 13 years to do something there will be no further increase in the local labour market and in the about these issues? year 2016 we start to drop. Once it starts to drop, it will be a very serious drop year after year. This is something that those in public The last time we had a program for older worker adjustment, policy have to be aware of and have to plan for because it is very where we did offer income support to older workers, was in 1987, serious. when it was established. It was gutted by the Liberals in 1997. When the member was first elected, did he start advocating for those However, my point is there has to be attached to the motion an programs then? If you did, what was your government's response older worker strategy. We have to develop a strategy to encourage and its reasoning for not pursuing those programs and protecting older workers to stay in the workplace, if they want. We certainly are older workers until now when you find yourself on the opposition not going to legislate that people work. However, if they want to, we benches urging the current government to correct your— have to make it more attractive. To give an example, in Sweden and Japan approximately 90% of their workers between the ages of 55 The Deputy Speaker: Order, please. I would like to remind the and 65 work. In Canada it is close to 50%. That gives us an idea of hon. member, as I did for her colleague earlier and as I keep having what we are faced with. to do day after day in this chamber, that we are not supposed to use Some of the issues I would look at would be training for workers the second person. I just remind the hon. member not to use the word in that cohort. Elimination of any suggestion of mandatory “you” unless she is specifically referring to the Chair. retirement has to come. There have to be changes in our tax policy. We have to make it more beneficial and attractive for older workers, The hon. member for Charlottetown. 3686 COMMONS DEBATES October 5, 2006

Business of Supply Hon. Shawn Murphy: Mr. Speaker, I believe the member is The hon. member says that he will vote in favour of this motion. I referring to the previous program for older worker adjustment, which am thrilled, but I am very surprised that his Conservative colleagues was cancelled in 1997. That was replaced with the older workers across the floor, who voted in favour a year ago, are now voting pilot project initiative in 1997 and was recently terminated. against it. I read the study on the first one. I said at the outset that whatever Is this not surprising? Perhaps it is more to stall for time, in order happens here, we cannot add in an additional disincentive to to introduce a new program reduced to only certain sectors of the workforce attachment. I read a study produced by HRDC, analyzing economy, which would be most unfortunate for the others. 1,000 workers. There was some negative repercussions on that I believe that the program should apply to all regions and to all program. It was replaced by another program. Again, nothing is perfect. workers. Does the hon. member not agree with me? ● (1130) This issue is a moving target. If I were debating this issue 15 years [English] ago, I would be saying that we should be developing programs to get the older workers out of the workplace and get the younger ones in, Hon. Shawn Murphy: Mr. Speaker, I agree with the basic tenet but that is no longer the issue. That ground is shifting very fast. of the question that there has to be a program which has to be available to all regions and all sectors, but I do not necessarily agree Some initiatives have been taken, but we have to do a lot more that it should be exactly like POWA. There were problems with that and we have to do a lot more quickly. particular program. Mr. Blaine Calkins (Wetaskiwin, CPC): Mr. Speaker, I agree It should be similar. It should be specifically for those workers with my colleague on the demographic time bomb issues. If I recall who, for geographical or training reasons, cannot get another job, some of the information that I have read, by the year 2020, we could like in the situation that happened in Huntingdon, Quebec and that be faced with three workers paying for social programs in a 3:1 ratio has happened in a lot of the outports of Newfoundland. Those are versus 5:1, which we have right now. I am very concerned about our situations that government has to respond to. low birth rate and some of the issues we have with that. Again, my answer is yes, there should be an exact program, but it If we are going to retrain people and if we are going to look at should be tied in with other initiatives. policies whereby we are encouraging people to stay in the workforce, based on the pilot project being examined right now by [Translation] the government, when our government does puts recommendations Hon. Robert Thibault (West Nova, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I would forward based on these pilot projects and when we have well thought like to thank and congratulate the hon. member for Chambly— out strategies and policies dealing with keeping people in the Borduas for drawing the attention of this House to this very workforce, can we count on the hon. member's support for that? The important matter. I congratulate him for having framed this motion hon. member said he was looking forward to well thought out that I will support and that I find quite broad. It would be impractical programs and policies. to approach such a vast problem from a narrow-minded perspective. Hon. Shawn Murphy: Mr. Speaker, I will have to look at what Solutions to the problems facing older workers cannot be the government brings forward. considered without also considering the communities in which they live and where they want their families to live. The communities To answer the member's question, this motion had his support on must have the benefit of economic growth and good potential in June 9, 2005. Therefore, I will certainly be counting on his support order to survive. when the vote is taken on this motion. I will be surprised and shocked if he does not support it. [English] [Translation] It is impossible to look at this in isolation. We have heard a lot of good comments on that this morning. If we break it down, income Mr. Louis Plamondon (Bas-Richelieu—Nicolet—Bécancour, support alone does not do it and training alone does not do it. I think BQ): Mr. Speaker, I listened closely to the speech by my colleague we have to look across the board at the community, the economy and from Charlottetown. I am pleased that he now agrees that we have the place where older workers and younger workers live. reached the point in our economic history when the government must intervene formally and concretely, because of the change in the The impact of closures of factories and businesses, as suggested economic situation, which we all recognize—my colleague men- by the motion, affects more than only one demographic segment of tioned certain acronyms. our communities. It affects all the communities. There has to be an approach that takes care of all this. He also concludes that POWA, a program that we tried out with much success in the 1990s, should be implemented immediately— With income support, I think we could start at the very base. We since we know how—and that it would be extremely beneficial for could look at those income support programs we already have and workers in the areas of softwood lumber, mining and textiles, for ask if they are meeting the needs. I know that residents in my example, and for Norsk Hydro workers, who are feeling pressure communities who are receiving the Canada pension plan or old age because there is likely to be a closure soon. Former workers at Aciers security are struggling. They are struggling to survive. The amounts inoxydables Atlas, in Sorel-Tracy, who were not able to benefit from they are receiving are not enough in today's economy. We have seen this program, know how it feels. the prices. The cost of living has increased dramatically for them. October 5, 2006 COMMONS DEBATES 3687

Business of Supply If we look at the consumer price index, it does not tell the story. and were rewarded for it by earning income and earning their EI The consumer price index is growing very slowly. Inflation is under insurance, and they could maintain their families. control. But if we look at the very basic cost of maintaining our homes and our families, we will see that non-discretionary spending has risen very quickly in the last few years. Training is no longer available to these people. There have been cuts in the training programs. I mentioned this earlier. Three months Sure, the big items have not gone up. Automobile prices have not into the year, the retraining programs and the support programs from gone up all that much and perhaps groceries have not gone up all that HRDC have been cut. Literacy training has been reduced. These are much. Electronics certainly have not. However, let us look at the the basic building blocks that people need to be able to get out there. basic costs, such as the price of fuel, the price of heating our homes, the price of energy. Let us also look at the costs of insuring our homes and insuring our vehicles. In rural parts of the country, where We are seeing people who have been displaced from the herring a lot of these older workers live, mass transit is not an option. Mass industry. Shaw Woods was a very good employer, and a responsible transit is not available. It is impossible to raise a family and maintain one, but because of international market conditions it had to close a household without a personal vehicle. Those costs are very high. down. The Weymouth lumber mill has closed, and the softwood deal will not reopen it, trust me. King's processors, again because of I have heard suggestions from the governing party that since there international pressures, had to close down. Then there are the is a surplus in the Canada pension plan and the economy is doing tourism industry and the agricultural industry. They are all taking very well we should be accelerating a reduction in premiums. I hits. We see less tourists coming into Nova Scotia from the U.S. would ask the government to consider the other side of that, the side market since 9/11, a problem that will not be solved tomorrow. It is a of maintaining premiums. We have to watch it, because we do not tough problem and it affects a lot of seasonal workers. A lot of these want to choke employers and choke the economy, but I think we businesses depend on students. should be increasing benefits. The government should be increasing the amount of disposable income that is given to older workers, retirees and disabled people in this country. ● (1135) I thank the member for Charlottetown for suggesting that we could look at people receiving the Canada pension plan who may be What was the reaction at HRSDC? It was to slash the student able to work for part of the year as long as they do not lose their employment program. It had already been cut because of the census Canada pension plan. Some of them, while they can no longer work figures. I hear it is being cut again. An average of 70 students less a full time job because of chronic illness, may be able to do two or per riding will find work next year. Not only are we not helping the three weeks' work in a year. If there is no clawback of their Canada students, we are not helping the communities. We are not helping the pension plan, this would be a benefit to their community, to their local communities maintain a good, vibrant economy where these families and to them. older workers should, according to the minister, reintegrate into the workforce. I think we have to look at all those things. We see many sectors, such as the fruit growing sector and the agricultural sector, that have a chronic shortage of labour. They need a lot of labour in a very short period of time. These workers might be Then there are the CAP sites. I mentioned this earlier. I was in the available at that time. It could benefit both those sectors and the community of Maitland Bridge two weeks ago. It is an isolated workers. I think we have to be imaginative at how we look at this. community, next to a national park It was big in the forestry sector. In my communities in western Nova Scotia, there has been a very This community is losing its youth. There is no high-speed Internet serious downturn in the herring industry. It is cyclical. It will come access in that community. It is very important for Maitland Bridge to back. It moves around. The herring quota has been reduced from develop a CAP site. There are some sites 10 or 15 kilometres or 80,000 tonnes a year to 50,000 tonnes a year. A lot of people will not more from where Maitland Bridge is, but in this community there are make EI this year. none. Now there is no potential of getting these sites, because that funding has not been restored. It has been cut. These people are very good employees. They are able to go from one business to another. The employers have been working together to try to maximize the number of weeks that people can work. It is important for us to do these things. It is important that we get Everybody has been quite responsible, but many of the workers still broadband Internet access for all the communities. We have been will not have the required number of hours. They will not quite make able to do it for a lot of communities and we had the school program it this year. Who are these people? Most of them are female. A lot of to get it into all the schools. We have it in some rural communities, them are older, at 45-plus. They are single parents. They are one but we have to get it into all rural communities if we want to protect parent families. These are the people who hurt the most. the economy of the communities where these older workers live. We need to have a little imagination as to what kinds of programs we could put in place. When we were in government, we had a very I am not calling for going back to the old ways of EI. I remember good program. We would create projects. They were called make- the EI trap. Rather than seeking full time work, people would work projects, but they were always of community benefit. These sometimes get into that trap. That did not help, but we have to look people's time would be valuable. They assisted in the communities at EI and make sure it is working properly. 3688 COMMONS DEBATES October 5, 2006

Business of Supply In my community, because of the boundary divisions that were committed to developing a truly national older workers strategy. added, with some larger communities, some urban and semi-urban Instead, the government is introducing measures for a limited range communities where the unemployment rate is zero, it is assumed by of workers in a few selected regions. For the rest of Canada the Statistics Canada that the seasonal workers in my community can government seems intent on cutting social programs despite a $13 work year-round. Therefore, they need a large amount of work billion surplus which the Liberals gave it. weeks to draw EI. That is not true. At those rates, they cannot be driving 400 kilometres in the morning to work and 400 kilometres Since coming to power, the minority Conservative government back in the evening. There is no way that is going to work. I think has cut several programs aimed at assisting workers. The our boundary divisions have to be a lot more reflective of the Conservatives have terminated the $3.5 billion labour market communities where these people live. partnership agreements with the provinces, slashed $17 billion from the workplace skills strategy, axed funding for adult literacy We have talked about pilot projects. It was mentioned that some of programs, and halved funding to the Canadian apparel and textile them worked well and some of them did not. We have to review industries. them, of course, but what do we continue to hear? We hear they are being studied and studied and they are being put forward. We The POWA, program for older worker adjustment, was something continue to have the same thing, those same projects. I think we have that was put into place in 1987 by the Conservative government of to be more imaginative than that. We have to give flexibility to the Brian Mulroney. It was targeted to help displaced older workers age very good civil servants who work for us at HRSDC, Human 54 and over. Workers in Canada will hold the NDP accountable for Resources and Social Development Canada, who know what the its actions. They will also realize that Stephen Harper is no friend of potential is in those communities. They know where to make the working class Canadians— investments and what groups understand the local economy and can The Deputy Speaker: Order. The hon. member knows that he create the necessary jobs and training. ought not refer to the Prime Minister by name. Again, let me look at another point. Let me bring this back to who He has used up a great deal of time for questions and comments so a lot of these older workers are in my community. Who are the I will ask the hon. member for West Nova to respond. people we are trying to help? A lot of them are women. They depend on and need some organization and some leadership to be fighting Hon. Robert Thibault: Mr. Speaker, the member will know that on their behalf, because they are in isolated communities a long way for many years we heard the Conservatives in the House, when they from the centre. sat on this side at the time, talk about the $1 billion boondoggle. It was a self-prophetic evaluation of the work that they would do. The What do we get from this government? For one thing, it slashed $1 billion boondoggle arrived on the same day that they announced a the budget of the Status of Women department. That was an insult. $13.5 billion surplus, with $1 billion in cuts to social spending. Then, a few days later, we heard that the remaining budget cannot be given to organizations that do any lobbying, advocacy or research. I heard the minister today in the House suggest there was room in We continue to have a Status of Women organization in theory, but it the economy for a lot of these older workers, that they had to have cannot do anything, because we know that the REAL Women group retraining to do it in order to integrate into jobs, but at the same time believes that the money from the Status of Women should only be cut the money for retraining those people. The government cut the used to bring people together to do some brownie recipe exchanges. money for literacy, the basic building block to help a lot of workers learn new skills, new trades, integrate into the modern economy and I think it is time for us to get realistic and make sure that we take contribute to their communities. The money was removed. care of all of the people in our fair country. ● (1140) Three months into the year at HRSDC the budget for retraining Hon. Jim Karygiannis (Scarborough—Agincourt, Lib.): Mr. was cut. There is no money; the government could not find any Speaker, let us be clear about what has happened to the existing money anywhere else. It found money for its priorities, but that was federal initiatives to help older workers since the minority not a priority. With $13.5 billion the government can finance a few Conservative government came to power: cuts, delays and inaction. priorities. The government left the workers out in the cold and is One would think that if the Conservative Party were interested in leaving them out in the cold. standing up for Canada's older workers, it would actually recognize I named the four large industries that are going through difficulties the invaluable contribution that older workers make to our country in my community. People have been turned away from their places and would have policies that support these beliefs. Similarly, the last of employment. Young people, middle aged and older workers are election platform of the Conservative Party was silent when it came looking for ways to help their families and maintain their to older workers. communities. What did they get from the government? Cuts. Let us face the facts. Our population is aging and the number of ● (1145) older workers in this country is increasing. To remain competitive, accommodating measures are and will be required to respond to Mrs. Lynne Yelich (Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of these emerging needs. Human Resources and Social Development, CPC): Mr. Speaker, I want to quote what was said by the parliamentary secretary to the I am sure my colleague would agree with me that the minority minister of social development in the past government. The Conservative government has paid lip service to the issue of older particular Liberal minister at the time sat around the cabinet table workers but little else. Its actions suggest that it is not at all and the parliamentary secretary stated: October 5, 2006 COMMONS DEBATES 3689

Business of Supply In the course of his speech, he said that the government wants workers of a certain As this motion proposes, older workers require a specific program age to stay home. that will meet their needs, providing them with extra income, rather The Liberals were being accused of wanting to suggest that than relegating them to welfare with all the stigmas associated with women stay home and bake cookies, I guess as was talked about by that. We are told that the economy is strong and the labour market the other member. The parliamentary secretary went on to state: has never been so flourishing. But even in such a context older That is not the case at all. Quite the contrary....[the Liberal government] want workers who are laid off, regardless of their skills and work people to work. We do not want them to stay home and cash cheques. We want to experience, find themselves confronted with a big challenge. create opportunities for them. ● (1150) In a past Parliament on June 9, 2005 that is how the parliamentary secretary to the minister of social development in the Liberal [English] government responded to the accusations that are being made of the Conservative government by the member. Victoria has one of the lowest unemployment rates in Canada and I would like a comment from the member, please. even at that, the food banks have never been so busy. I have had the Hon. Robert Thibault: Mr. Speaker, I share the position outlined. occasion to visit the food banks and often I see workers in their That is what we want to do. We want to make sure that the fifties who are there without resources, often homeless. There is Government of Canada assists older workers, younger workers, all something indecent about this situation. It requires action, not more workers to achieve their potential. We will not do that by cutting the studies. programs that help them do that. We will not do it by eliminating literacy training. We will not do it by cutting retraining, by One woman came to my office in Victoria. She is 56. She has eliminating CAP sites, investments in infrastructure in those taken several retraining courses. She finds herself faced with communities. That is the last way to do those things. unemployment and obliged to rely on welfare. I wonder what the government would tell that worker, that woman in Victoria. Certainly we want to help them. Absolutely. We will maintain that and that is why we will form government again after the next election. In Canada we recognize the importance of allowing people who are aging to live in dignity. We provide the Canada pension plan, the [Translation] old age pension and the guaranteed income supplement. Ms. Denise Savoie (Victoria, NDP): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to take part in this debate. I am going to share my time with the [Translation] member for Hamilton Mountain. I congratulate the member for Chambly—Borduas on this motion. Parliament also passed an NDP motion to protect the rights of I know that this is a subject he cares a lot about. I have listened to older people. Although the motion passed, the government has not him tell us some very disturbing stories about older workers who taken any action to develop legislation. We must continue pressing were laid off and did not manage to find themselves a job. the government to ensure that these people are also protected. We, the New Democrats, strongly support the idea of an income support program for older workers from all regions and all realms of We are speaking today about a demographic group that does not activity. The member is right to persist and to place pressure on the reap these benefits: older workers who were laid off but are too government. We all have to exert pressure so that the government young to retire and face serious difficulty finding another job. What will act in order to help these workers who lose their jobs as the do we do? Do we just ignore them when many have paid result of factory shutdowns or slowdowns in some sector, whether employment insurance premiums for their entire lives? forestry or fisheries. As an example, in British Columbia we are surely going to witness sawmill closures on account of this bad When the Liberals were in power, they tightened the eligibility softwood lumber agreement. requirements for employment insurance to such an extent that now only 60% of the people who lose their jobs qualify for benefits. We also believe that older workers who lose their jobs should be entitled to training and have access to courses, if appropriate. This is why the New Democrats are pushing for a lifelong learning strategy Prior to 1997, of course, there was an adjustment program for to be developed. This means having the possibility of continuing to older workers that was instituted in 1988 and then abolished. It was contribute one’s talents, skills, energy and the wisdom one may have administered by the provinces but 70% of the funding came from the acquired at a certain age for as long as possible to Canadian society. federal government. This program enabled older workers between 55 and 64 years of age who had lost their jobs as a result of major In my opinion, this motion does not talk about those workers who layoffs to receive benefits. This program no longer exists. However, are fit for work and who could be retrained in some way or another. we know that the governments in Ottawa and Quebec are currently It must be recognized that workers aged between 55 and 64—which working on a pilot program to support older workers affected by is the age bracket preceding retirement—have greater difficulties. It factory closings in various parts of Quebec. This is an example of is not just a matter of taking a little course, as proposed by the federal-provincial cooperation that is directly related to the needs of Conservatives, to succeed in getting a job. What people get are the province. The federal government is helping to ensure that casual, low-paying jobs, if they manage to get those. vulnerable Canadians are treated fairly. 3690 COMMONS DEBATES October 5, 2006

Business of Supply I believe that we should do the same in other areas, such as government down. Now all of a sudden they turn around and say that literacy, rather than slashing these programs as the Conservative they have seen the light. government just did. We even heard the Treasury Board president say that it was a waste of money to invest in adults and we should invest in children instead. Investing in our children is a fine idea, but If they have seen the light, then they certainly will see the light setting the needs of adults against those of children is complete that the Conservative government is a slash and burn government madness. Adults have major literacy needs, and they deserve a that does not give a damn about older workers. program and funding. The support program that I mentioned for Ottawa-Quebec workers Ms. Denise Savoie: Mr. Speaker, the more I listen to the debates is supposed to be only for people 55 years of age or older working in on both sides of this House, the more I realize that a Liberal equals a the forest and textile sectors. Conservative on literacy programs. What the Liberals offered was $1 per Canadian a year on literacy. In some cases, many of the literacy The NDP believes we need a system for all older workers of all programs were already cut by the Liberals and the hatchet job was income levels coming from any region or any industry. We need a simply finished by the Conservatives. Canada-wide strategy for older workers that reflects their right to live in dignity. They should have an opportunity to continue developing their skills. I believe that Canadian society would have much to gain The member needs to remember that it was Canadians who from their contribution. realized that there was some serious corruption in the Liberal ● (1155) government and ended that. However, he is giving the NDP a lot of [English] power by suggesting that 19 members were able to bring down the Liberal government. I thank him for recognizing that we are all that By neglecting older workers, by standing still on this issue and by powerful. concentrating solely on what they can contribute to the economy and not to our society as a whole, we are missing the boat. Mrs. Lynne Yelich (Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of The government has blinders on when it simply wants to focus on Human Resources and Social Development, CPC): Mr. Speaker, I economic value without considering the serious poverty issues that would remind my hon. colleague that we are supposed to be talking many of these workers face at that age. Many of them have spent a about older workers and unemployment. If she wants to talk about lifetime working, for whatever reason, and, in some cases, have had literacy, I can tell her that we have a slate of programs and money to leave school early to support their families. Whether they were dedicated toward literacy that will be effective. We are hoping that involved in the fisheries or forestry, because of the problems in those members opposite will help us with the older worker issue. sectors they find themselves unemployed and having a difficult time finding other jobs. With respect to older workers, I want to talk about what is In many cases, there is the possibility of upgrading and skills happening in other areas. Alberta and B.C. are desperately in need of training, but again we see the Conservative government abandoning workers in the construction and welding sectors. Recently, P.E.I. had and cutting many of the programs, certainly in Victoria where their to hire foreign workers to work in several fish plants. It is a well- transitioning or re-entry was facilitated through literacy programs known fact that Canada is suffering from a severe labour shortage. and CAP. These programs have simply been put aside. I would ask the government to reconsider the case of workers between the ages of 55 and 64 and support the motion before us. How can the hon. member support a motion that would keep older workers, a valuable resource, out of the Canadian workforce? If we (1200) ● suggest a program that only targets older workers, how will we meet Hon. Jim Karygiannis (Scarborough—Agincourt, Lib.): Mr. some of the labour shortages that we have as well? Speaker, the Conservative government has allowed programs for older workers to sunset, but at the same time, the President of the Treasury Board needlessly slashed $17 million from the workplace I would like to bring the debate back to unemployment, skills strategy program as part of his vindictive and ideological $1 unemployment insurance and older workers and ask the member billion cut to some of Canada's most vulnerable programs. to define what her debate is about today. If it is about literacy, then In the last Liberal budget in 2005, there was an additional perhaps we could save that for another time. I would like to talk investment of $125 million over the three year program. In contrast, about older workers who would like to remain in the workforce. the first Conservative budget laid the groundwork for its destruction. What would she do with those people who do not want early retirement? How would she fill the serious labour shortages? Workers in Canada will know and will hold the NDP responsible for its actions in 2006. Ms. Denise Savoie: Mr. Speaker, I recognize that the debate today The member said that the government has blinders on. I am just is about unemployment and the problems we face. I was talking wondering if the member would not agree with me that the NDP about the conditions that help workers address those issues, and members had blinders on when they voted to take the last Liberal certainly one of them is literacy. October 5, 2006 COMMONS DEBATES 3691

Business of Supply Workers are not widgets, as some of the Conservatives would like most part, the companies in this sector are very old and they have a to suggest, that one can move from one part of the country to very senior workforce. Of the workers losing their jobs at these another. As I understand it, the debate today is about older workers plants as they close and downsize, 60% or 70% of them are older who are simply not able, because of the situation, to take retraining, workers and, in part, they have been displaced as a result of or those who face tremendous obstacles in finding new employment government policies. at 56 or 57 years of age after a whole career— ● (1205) Yes, technological changes had a profound impact on the nature of The Acting Speaker (Mr. Royal Galipeau): Resuming debate. the workplace, but so have policies such as free trade agreements The hon. member for Hamilton Mountain. that were first put in place by the Mulroney Conservatives and then Ms. Chris Charlton (Hamilton Mountain, NDP): Mr. Speaker, I expanded under the Liberals. am delighted to speak in the House today to one of the most urgent issues in the new Canadian economy, income support for older workers. I want to speak to this issue from two perspectives. First, as One would think that successive governments might have the NDP critic for seniors and pensions, and second, as the member assumed some responsibility for addressing the unique issues of Parliament for Hamilton Mountain. confronting older workers in Canada and, to be fair, the Conservatives did act on at least one aspect of older worker Let me begin by painting a picture of what is happening in my assistance in 1987 by introducing the program for older worker hometown of Hamilton. Most members in this legislature will think adjustment which gave income support to workers between the ages of Hamilton as steel town, a city that has built its reputation from a of 55 and 64 who had lost their jobs as part of a mass layoff. The strong and vibrant industrial and manufacturing sector. Not so long program was not perfect but it did allow over 12,000 displaced older ago that picture would have been accurate. However, members may workers with poor re-employment prospects to bridge the gap be surprised to learn that the largest employer in Hamilton today is between layoff and retirement. neither Stelco nor Dofasco, but rather the service sector and, in particular, health care. Let me take moment to describe what has been happening in Unfortunately, the Liberals dismantled the program in 1997 Hamilton. The old industrial manufacturing economy of Hamilton without offering in its place a better alternative. Essentially, the has shrunk to but a ghost of its former self. The two big steel Liberals wrote off older workers as inevitable casualties of structural companies that used to employ over 30,000 people now employ change in the Canadian economy. Today we have the opportunity to about 6,000. The whole steel sector, which, as I said earlier, was the right that fundamental wrong and providing income support to older backbone of Hamilton's economy, is now about one-quarter of its workers is an important step in that direction. However, it should not former size. be the only step. In the steel sector alone we have lost 3,248 jobs in just the past five years from 35 companies. Some of the losses were from Many older workers who lose their jobs want or must continue to bankruptcies and plant closures, while others are the result of participate in the labour force. This is especially true in instances continuous downsizing where there are still more losses to come as where job losses are the result of bankruptcies. In these cases, the nature of the industrial marketplace changes in the global workers often lose not just their jobs, but also their anticipated economy. pension benefits and back wages. Unfortunately, the job losses did not begin and end with the steel industry. We lost Studebaker, International Harvester, Westinghouse, Proctor & Gamble, J.I. Case, Firestone and hundreds of smaller It is precisely for those reasons that I introduced Bill C-270, the plants. These are just some of the big names from Hamilton's past. workers first bill, earlier this year which would ensure that benefits Sadly, the list of losses is still growing. owed to workers will take super-priority over all other creditors in cases of commercial bankruptcy. All of us in the House who take More recent ones that pop to mind, again from just the past five seriously the issue of income support to older workers, no doubt years, are Siemens Westinghouse with 332 layoffs, and Camco support this legislation. I look forward to my bill receiving full where 716 lost their jobs when the plant closed and 284 more support when it comes to a vote in the House. workers ended up on temporary layoff. The Tiercon plant closure saw another 700 jobs lost and there were bankruptcies and plant closures at Rheem, Philip Environmental, Hercules, Mak Steel, Frost ● (1210) Fence, Dominion Castings, Cold Metal Products, and ACI Automotives. New permanent layoffs are happening every month in the industrial manufacturing sector in Hamilton and there is no Many older workers need to find new re-employment, but they end in sight. face a number of unique and serious barriers to their job search. Let me review just some of those barriers. First, there is a bias toward I started out by referring to the old industrial manufacturing high skills in today's demand for labour. This is a huge problem for economy in Hamilton and I did that for a reason. This is a sector of displaced low skilled workers especially those residing in parts of the the economy that is not growing and is not creating jobs. For the country where opportunities for re-employment are very limited. 3692 COMMONS DEBATES October 5, 2006

Business of Supply As a nation Canada has never had a culture of workplace based Instead of pursuing any of these initiatives with any real interest, learning. This must change. If employers actually invested in the we have had successive Liberal and Conservative governments continuous updating of skills and education for their workforce, not throw up their hands and stand idly by as high paying industrial jobs only would they benefit from increases in productivity and are replaced with service sector jobs at half the rate of pay or less. profitability but our country as a whole would benefit by ensuring that displaced workers would have the skills necessary to participate Those who suffer the most are those who built our country, the in the increasingly high tech economy. older Canadian workers, whose labour drove our economy and whose taxes built the social infrastructure like our health care system I am not suggesting that the onus for training should only fall on that defines us as a nation. Older Canadians deserve more from their employers. The government too has an important role to play in government and they deserve it now. promoting life long learning. However, instead of taking that role seriously, the government is actually responsible for many of the I am proud to support the creation of real income support for older barriers that undermine skills training. workers. Just last week we saw the government cut funding support for literacy training. Yet, we know that 40% of working age Canadians Mr. Laurie Hawn (Edmonton Centre, CPC): Mr. Speaker, I have limited literacy and numeracy skills, and that even these skills listened with great interest to my colleague's comments. Philoso- atrophy from lack of use in some workplaces. This has had a phically, everyone is willing to assist and ready to assist people who profoundly negative impact on the re-employment prospects of need help. Canadian workers. However, I have a number of questions. First of all, older workers Similarly, the government's employment insurance system does have a lower unemployment rate than the workforce in total. Does little to encourage workers to participate in skills upgrading. On the the member know how many older workers would be assisted by this contrary, it sets up barriers. proposal? How many unemployed older workers are there in Canada currently? Has anyone looked at what the cost of this real income If our public policies did more than pay lip service to help support program across Canada would be? unemployed workers, we would be fast-tracking older workers to programs for skills upgrading, retraining or real career change ● (1215) options. Instead, the EI system forces them to go out and spend time doing a useless job search for several months in the same sector from Ms. Chris Charlton: Mr. Speaker, I have been listening to the which they have just been laid off and in which layoffs are debate all morning and I have heard Conservative speaker after continuing, just so that they can prove that they cannot be rehired in Conservative speaker say that the government is undertaking a very that sector with their present skill set. comprehensive feasibility study to answer precisely the member's question, so I would encourage him to have a chat with the minister, Why are we putting the onus on workers to prove the obvious? as she too is still looking for those answers. While they are doing what the government demands, they are getting frustrated and demoralized, and even worse, they are using up a huge Let me suggest to the hon. member that Nero fiddled while Rome portion of their EI benefits in this fruitless process. When EI is burned. I understand that his party is looking for a new strategy to finally ready to consider these older workers for some kind of deal with older displaced workers, but while it is doing that, we have retraining, it then makes the process such a bureaucratic nightmare thousands of seniors who need income support as his party is that it actually drives workers away. Even those who stick out the groping about looking for new programs that would provide real application process find that the majority of them get turned down retraining opportunities. for training. Only a very small number of those interested in skills training actually get to proceed. I urge the government to do its research quickly and not let the Clearly, EI reform needs to complement income support programs issues just lie on the back burner as its Liberal predecessors did, and if we want to deal effectively with the displacement of older workers do the right thing for older workers by starting with an income in today's economy. support program. Finally, we must look at the economy as a whole. I have already [Translation] said that the free trade agreements have had a profoundly negative impact on high paying industrial and manufacturing jobs in our Mr. Yves Lessard (Chambly—Borduas, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I country. The current softwood sellout that is being so actively want to start by commending our colleagues from Victoria and promoted by the current Conservative government will have the Hamilton Mountain on the quality of their presentations and thank same devastating impact on the workers, families and communities them for supporting the Bloc Québécois motion I introduced this affected in the forestry sector. morning. It is time that we stop making our economic decisions based on Before putting a question myself, I will answer the question of our what is best for the United States. It is shameful that we do not have Conservative colleague. We are talking about $50 million the first a steel sector strategy in this country. We desperately need an auto year and $75 million in subsequent years out of a total budget of sector strategy. There is profound economic potential in developing a $16 billion. I had the opportunity to repeat these figures a few times green industry strategy. this morning, and the minister should have them. October 5, 2006 COMMONS DEBATES 3693

Business of Supply My question is for my hon. colleague from Hamilton Mountain. In company for many years are not necessarily able to automatically Quebec, older workers who run out of EI end up on welfare. Not find another job. Furthermore, employers do not readily hire before having exhausted their assets, though. For example, a someone who is 58 or 60 years old, even if this person needs the recipient who owns a house worth more than $80,000 will see his income. or her benefits reduced accordingly. This also applies to a small cottage. Property has to be sold and the proceeds used up before Today I speak on behalf of Gilles, Michel, Clément and others people can qualify for welfare benefits. who came to see me the day after the 2004 election. They were the first group I met with in Montmagny, in the new riding I represented. I would like my hon. colleague to tell we whether similar I told them at the time that we would do whatever we could to ensure constraints exist in her province and whether getting support is as that a program for older workers is put in place. difficult there. At the same time, I would like to point out to her that the funding On the one hand, it is a good thing to have programs that make it that should normally be allocated to the POWA is being withheld by possible for people to find jobs. We should make it easier for them to the federal government, and the provinces end up having to support do that. On the other hand, however, there is the reality that this these older people. government has so far consistently denied. No solution is being proposed for the people who cannot find new jobs. [English] Ms. Chris Charlton: Mr. Speaker, the member is absolutely right. This is not a problem in my riding alone. It is a new reality that Certainly, the same system of social assistance would be available to has come with globalization and expanded trade. Great. We are all older workers in my community of Hamilton and across Ontario as it pleased to see globalization and expanded trade. If it helps economic is in Quebec. However, the reality for these older workers is that we activity, so much the better. There are winners and there are losers, should not be forcing them onto social assistance. That is not what however. The government’s responsibility is to ensure that there is an the system was designed for. appropriate distribution of wealth. When we invest, when we We talk about allowing older workers to retire with dignity and increase productivity, when we give an investment credit or allow respect. We are forcing people to become Wal-Mart greeters instead accelerated depreciation, often, when it comes to jobs, there are of being able to actually fill the high paying positions they have been people who are victims. We have to find a solution so that those trained to do, which they have been doing all of their lives. people get their share of the increased productivity and the profit. That is called an assistance program for older workers. The plant closures in Hamilton that I outlined in my speech are not closures that were being forced onto those companies by the We started calling for this a long time ago. We called for it in the workers. The government has a responsibility for implementing last election campaign. The leader of the Bloc Québécois came to policies that protect workers in tandem with the policies that it Montmagny and made a commitment to make this a priority in implements that displace those workers. Parliament. We have been on the government’s case since that time and we will continue to be until an appropriate program, a program That is what the hon. member's motion is asking for. That is what that meets people’s needs, is put in place. we, on this side of the House, are supporting, and we join him in urging the government to stop putting displaced workers on the back First, we had an amendment made to the throne speech so that it burner and to start dealing with this very urgent issue today. referred to the problem of older workers. Then we had a statement [Translation] included in the budget saying that the government intended to act. Mr. Paul Crête (Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Riv- ière-du-Loup, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I will be sharing my time with the We have been told about feasibility studies. That was really not member for Brome—Missisquoi to speak to the motion of the Bloc going far enough. The people affected by this situation have been Québécois put forward by the member for Chambly—Borduas, living with it for six months or a year. They are experiencing whom I congratulate. hardship and they are having to deal with social problems. There have even been suicides. These people are anxious for the The motion states: government to do something concrete. So far, we have not yet been That the House reiterate to the government the importance of implementing a real given that commitment, but we are back on the government’s case income support program for older workers that would apply to all older workers in all today with a motion in which every word is important. economic sectors, in all regions. Today, I wish to speak for all those who are affected by this We are asking “that the House reiterate to the government…,” situation. I heard some Conservative members ask if these people because the government has been aware of the need to act for a long had not found any work and why not. Today, these people are time. We have seen the examples. Proposals have been made, listening to us. Two years ago in my riding of Montmagny—L'Islet particularly by the union organizations in Quebec, proposals that —Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, the Whirlpool plant laid off at included very reasonable terms. We are not talking about having an least 100 workers aged 55 and over. Some found work. The majority open bar and making it so that everybody has access to this program did everything they could to find work. There are jobs available, but if they have not done what they need to do to find a job. When the the reality is that these people do not necessarily have the skills situation has reached the point that it has now, however, if there are suited to the task. We know that you have to work with new people who are not able to find new jobs, then they really have to be technologies today. Very competent individuals who had a job at a given what they need to move on. 3694 COMMONS DEBATES October 5, 2006

Business of Supply The program has to cover all older workers. We must not start hawing she could give agree to a program that would affect all segregating people. I challenge my colleagues in this House to give workers in all regions and in all employment sectors. me a guarantee that in the next six months or over the next year there will be no plant in their ridings that is affected by closures connected Our economy and the efficiency of our society can be measured with globalization, and there will be no workers who have devoted by our gross domestic product, but also through the distribution of their lives to a business and brought up their families and now find our riches. In that respect, our society does not often achieve a themselves unemployed. All they are being given at present is a passing mark. maximum of 45 weeks of employment insurance. These people have often paid into employment insurance for 20 or 25 or 30 years and when their 45 weeks are up they find themselves with nothing. There are a great many reasons for making sure that we proceed. I will give you one example that caused me to reflect seriously and The program therefore has to cover all older workers, men and which left me with a heavy heart. Last week we learned that as of women, who are living in these situations. March 31, 2006, the surplus stood at $13 billion. Of that amount, $2 billion came from the employment insurance fund and had been used ● (1220) to reduce the debt. The textile industry is a good example. At Saint-Pamphile in my riding, Industries Troie employed 150 women who had worked in In our ridings, the people who are dealing with this reality— this sector for a number of years. They worked for a vibrant estimated at $75 million for all of Canada—felt that instead of employer, but imports from China came in like a tsunami. paying down the debt more quickly, it would have been better to devote some of that money to the program we are discussing today. Since the government had not implemented relevant measures, jobs were swept away. Among the workers affected by the job losses, some are older and are having a hard time finding a new job. The creation of a program for older workers would have They must be eligible for this type of program, no matter which represented $75 million of the $13 billion surplus. Nobody would economic sector they worked in. have noticed. People would have been better off. They could have been treated like workers who have done their share for society. Now Today the Standing Committee on Industry, Science and that they are near retirement, they will be entitled to the old age Technology is addressing the issue of the manufacturing sector. security pension when they reach age 65. They will also be eligible Globalization is presenting Quebec and Canada's businesses in the for the Quebec pension plan. However, for the next two or three manufacturing sector with an extraordinary challenge in that it has years it will be a painful struggle, because at the age of 56 or 57, they become very difficult to compete with all the products that come will be forced to make withdrawals from their RRSPs and to sell from abroad. We have to implement what we need to address this. their assets. This will create a terrible injustice. Some people who are When a company closes its doors, the workers who are victims of supporting a family may not be able to carry on. this situation, in all economic sectors, have to be treated fairly. That is the intention of the Bloc motion. Faced with this reality, it is absolutely essential that this House adopt this motion. The Conservatives must understand that this issue Deliberate leaks from the Conservative Party have indicated that goes beyond statistics. If the Conservative members go back to their this could affect the forestry and textile sectors. Nonetheless, we also ridings, they will probably see people of 55, 56 or 58 years of age have to think about the furniture sector as well. who, despite all their efforts to find new work and despite the low Week after week, more plants announce they are closing and they rate of unemployment, are not able to find a job. These people are not necessarily all from the same sector. Will people in the deserve the support of their government, which is what this motion Quebec City area who work in the shoe industry be excluded? Will calls for. For that reason, the Bloc Québécois motion should receive we include a company from a region with low unemployment that overwhelming support. has suddenly been hit hard by this type of closure? ● (1225) The motion states, “— all older workers in all economic sectors, in all regions”. [English] It is important that this motion be passed today in this House and I Mrs. Lynne Yelich (Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of hope it will be passed unanimously. If that is not the case, I hope it Human Resources and Social Development, CPC): Mr. Speaker, I will obtain a majority of the votes. Then the government will know have a quote from a Bloc member in the previous House debate on that the time for discussion is over. We can no longer tolerate waiting older workers. I would appreciate a comment from the member after for this or that to be completed or for the proper figures or data to be hearing it. He said: released. [Older workers] do not want to live on EI benefits and even less on welfare The minister should adopt the same attitude that she took during payments. They want us to support them so they can upgrade their skills, start a our recent battle on transitional measures for employment insurance, business, or find a new job. when we fought to maintain the five weeks of additional benefits for seasonal workers. Now, we are concerned about older workers. Let In that respect, would it be more useful to expand the wording of the minister do as she has done on other issues.After hemming and today's motion to include employment supports? October 5, 2006 COMMONS DEBATES 3695

Business of Supply [Translation] and on the other, we are seeing cuts to programs for workers, women Mr. Paul Crête: That is precisely what is unacceptable, this guilt and aboriginals. What the Conservatives have done is really put on older workers by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister unhealthy. of Human Resources and Social Development. Such remarks are totally unacceptable. We really need a program to help older workers. No such program We are not saying that people should not work or get training. is currently available. There is nothing for workers. There is something quite hypocritical about cutting funding for literacy and, the very same week, the parliamentary secretary across the way suggesting that the members of the Bloc Québécois do not feel that training should be provided to these people. I would like to ask the member, who has a lot of experience in this House, if he thinks this government understands the impact of its The parliamentary secretary and the government have to under- actions over the last few months, and especially since last week. stand. In Quebec and Canada, older workers want to work, they want to have an income. Those who will be eligible for the part of the program that will help them until retirement are people who The Acting Speaker (Mr. Royal Galipeau): There are 15 contributed to society for decades and now have the misfortune of seconds remaining for the response. not having a job anymore. The hon. parliamentary secretary has to recognize that, and stop making these people feel guilty, as was done previously with the unemployed. Mr. Paul Crête: Mr. Speaker, I think the government is a victim ● (1230) of its own ideological credo, which has led to cuts that the ministers [English] themselves did not even know about just four days before they were announced. Today, the Conservatives have an opportunity to make Mr. Sukh Dhaliwal (Newton—North Delta, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, amends by doing the right thing and voting for the Bloc motion. I was impressed with the hon. member's very passionate speech about older workers. The minority Conservative government slashed $17.7 million in Mr. Christian Ouellet (Brome—Missisquoi, BQ): Mr. Speaker, funding for literacy programs, describing them as wasteful. People in I thank the hon. member for Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska— my riding of Newton—North Delta are disturbed by these cuts Rivière-du-Loup for sharing his time with me and for giving such a because they will affect them on a large scale. fine presentation that really explores the problems facing older workers. How do these cuts resonate in the member's riding? [Translation] Mr. Paul Crête: Mr. Speaker, these are all symptoms of the same I would also like to thank my colleague from Chambly—Borduas problem. This government is making people feel guilty because of its who introduced this motion and so keenly defended it. perception that anything short of a total market economy and free competition cannot make the economy run smoothly. This kind of talk has not been heard since the days before the This morning, the minister told this House that Canada is Great Depression of the 1930s. At the time, the Republicans in the experiencing a growth in employment and, as a result, we do not United States were saying that the government should not spend any need to help older workers. It is completely absurd to link the money, that it should not get involved in anything. Then, the United number of jobs to the fact that older workers cannot find work. States sank into recession, followed by the rest of North America and the entire planet, but there was no cause for alarm, they said. We were all headed for a brick wall. The minister acknowledged that losing jobs also has a domino effect in the community. This is true, and we know that people who The Conservatives' attitude is the same today when they cut become impoverished at 57 or 58, and who have lost everything, funding for literacy. Naturally, in my riding, people enroll in such cannot contribute to their community, far from it. Money given to classes because they need to be able to read. Yet we have heard that people who have worked all their lives thus helps the entire grants between $25,000 and $30,000 for such an organization are community and even helps younger people find new jobs. being cut suddenly. People are expected to be able to skate without even being provided with skates. They are not able to get into the game. This morning, the minister said that people would retire more In a nutshell, this is one tool and POWA is another key tool. universally if there were a program such as POWA. On the contrary, Mr. Peter Julian (Burnaby—New Westminster, NDP): Mr. people want to work. If they suddenly stop working and receive Speaker, I really enjoyed the member's statement. What he said assistance from a program such as POWA, it would be because no about budget cuts was important. On the one hand, we have a other solution is available to them. People do not want to live off Conservative government that is giving a billion dollars in subsidies POWA. They would prefer to have a real salary. The minister must to the oil industry, one of the most profitable industries in Canada, realize this. 3696 COMMONS DEBATES October 5, 2006

Business of Supply I got the impression that the minister had not gone to see what was tax breaks. This is dumping, because the selling price is less than the happening in the field. She does not know the people these measures production cost. are designed for. She is mistaken when she thinks that assistance programs for learning new skills will apply to these individuals. It is But the government has never done anything about this. With the very seldom possible to retrain them. She is even talking about new WTO, it could have put up barriers over the past 10 years, as the careers. Come on. Men and women who have worked 18, 20, 25, 27 United States has done. There was also NAFTA, and because we are or 28 years for the same company have become experts at their jobs big exporters to the United States, we were hamstrung. and cannot be readily retrained. They have skills, which they learned on the job. In general, workers in the textile, furniture, lumber and soon the rug industry—since the problem of the rug industry is CSBS is a textile plant that is experiencing huge problems, and it getting dangerously close to my riding—cannot easily learn another is not alone. This morning, the local papers in my riding reported trade or start another career, contrary to what the minister may that Consoltex, a textile company in Cowansville, my own city, imagine. Why? Because they have very little education. wants to cut its employees' wages, vacation and benefits, because it is in financial difficulty. Just imagine, if the employees refuse a wage My colleague from Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Riv- cut that will leave them with starvation wages, the company will ière-du-Loup has just said that people are often illiterate. They have close. This will be one more closure that will leave textile experts out lots of knowledge and have acquired extraordinary expertise. They of work. The younger workers will be able to find new jobs, of are professionals in their job. But they have a grade two, grade three, course, but those who are 55 or older will have a tough time finding or grade four education. Some have a hard time reading. So they work. cannot easily begin another career at an advanced age. How can anyone think that it is possible, when it is not? All the national unions in Quebec and the local unions support us. I will take the example of my father-in-law, a typical man, who I have met with them personally, and they are all in favour of spent his life working for Goodyear, in textiles, and who became an assistance for people 55 and over, because they know that these expert. This man did not have an education. He had maybe gone to people cannot find new jobs, that they cannot embark on a new school for two or three years, and then he had to work after the war career as easily as the minister may think. because he came from a large family. We absolutely must help manufacturing companies that are having In Quebec, there are still large families. Some people still leave trouble surviving and we must realize that this is a humanitarian the country to go and work in factories, where they get their training. issue. We cannot ask the international community to help our older They become open-minded and capable people who can help others. workers aged 55 and over. It is up to the government to help them. I My father-in-law even became a foreman. But at age 57 or 58, he am convinced that the assistance requested is not an inordinate could not find a job elsewhere. It was impossible. He did not have amount for the government and that it represents peanuts when the knowledge required. compared to the total budget. Someone who changes jobs every five or ten years is mobile, and so is his head. He can easily find employment in other fields. As the However, it is very important because half of Quebec's industries minister said, he can enter an assistance program and possibly start have lost 100,000 jobs over the past 10 years. In my riding, another career. But people who have done the same job their whole thousands of jobs are being lost. These workers cannot be placed as life long find this hard to imagine and are not able to easily find readily as we would like or hope. another way of working and living. Furthermore, we have opened our borders which has created even For these people, POWA is therefore absolutely necessary. It more difficulties. These conditions did not exist 20 or 25 years ago. cannot be replaced. They are new conditions and we now need a plan to directly and My riding has many workers. Unlike the minister, I meet with immediately meet the needs of those aged 55 and over. them and talk with them. ● (1235) We can be certain that older workers will prefer to continue to work or to find another job rather than to receive assistance under I meet with these people, I talk to them, and I know how much POWA. they would like to work, how much they would like to find another job. But this is impossible, because these people specialize in just POWA is like first aid or a safety net that will prevent workers one area, so there is less work for them, or else none at all. from suffering psychologically and from having their health For example, CSBS, the former CT Brooks company in Magog, is adversely affected. Money not invested in POWA will be spent to currently restructuring. Every week, it is laying people off or maintain workers' psychological and physical health. rehiring. Why? Because we are facing huge competition from China, a phenomenon that could be described as dumping. The definition of The government can spend in one area or the other. I prefer to dumping is giving things to a company free of charge. In China, the have healthy men and women who are no longer employed than to government is giving companies land, not charging them tax on spend money on health care to keep them going to the end of their equipment, lending them money at preferential rates and giving them days. In my opinion, POWA must be established immediately. October 5, 2006 COMMONS DEBATES 3697

Business of Supply ● (1240) Mr. Christian Ouellet: Mr. Speaker, I thank my hon. colleague [English] for her excellent question because, when I meet with labour unions in my riding, that is one of the things we talk about. This is indeed an Mr. Mark Warawa (Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister interesting and worthwhile program, but, as I said earlier, it does not of the Environment, CPC): Mr. Speaker, first, on this issue, I am do much to find work for people who cannot be easily retrained, if at shocked to find that I am considered an older worker. I am in that age all. group. In all seriousness, this is an important issue. In some areas of Canada there are low levels of unemployment That is why both programs are necessary: one to help workers find and there is ample opportunity for employment in many commu- a new job, and also one for those who cannot find a job because they nities where older workers do not need access to income supports. In are too specialized in their field and, beyond a certain age, cannot fact, 44% of unemployed older workers live outside of censused even imagine themselves doing something else. metropolitan areas. [English] Thus, how does the Bloc motion take into account different Mr. Mike Allen (Tobique—Mactaquac, CPC): Mr. Speaker, situations in the labour market right across Canada? today I will be splitting my time with my colleague from Palliser. ● (1245) [Translation] [Translation] Mr. Christian Ouellet: Mr. Speaker, I want to thank my hon. I want to thank the hon. member for Chambly—Borduas for this colleague for asking this question because it gives me an opportunity proposal and I hope he realizes that our government is committed to to talk about what is happening in my riding and then to elaborate on ensuring that older workers remain active and have an important the question. place in the working population of Canada. In my riding, there are job losses and job creation as well. A great [English] number of jobs are generated. There is job creation in high technology companies and job creation in sectors where materials are produced and then shipped directly to the United States or I want to remind the member to start with that and remind the Europe. House about our 2006 budget where we made a commitment to the feasibility study that would review the current and potential In my riding a lot of jobs are created; so that is not the problem. measures aimed at addressing the challenges faced by unemployed The problem is that people 55 and older cannot be retrained or take older workers. I think that is recognizing the importance of these jobs because they lack the knowledge or adaptability to do so. implementing real programs that do support our older workers. They were never shown that they could do something else.Therefore they have no options even though new plants in my riding are hiring. One element of that feasibility study will be the close examination These workers cannot take these jobs because they lack the skills to of how we can assist our older workers going forward into the future. work in these factories. The same thing is going on all across We have learned some lessons from the older workers' pilot program. Quebec. I reflect back on the comments made by the minister this morning in her discussion and I want to point to three of those which really This summer I travelled across Canada and I made the same stuck in my mind about future programs being helpful. observations. Even in Edmonton there are unemployed people. Workers do not stay long in Edmonton because when they get there One of those is that 100% wage subsidies were least effective. and realize they do not have the sought after special skills, they Second, relating to training, there has to be sufficient time for older leave. The principle of communicating vessels does not apply here. participants to learn new skills and training must be practical and In other words, when someone 55 or older is laid off, this does not relevant. Third, a long term approach will allow for a more effective create a new job opening. This is not an automatic process. Some use of the funds. workers find other jobs, but it is far from automatic. Ms. Raymonde Folco (Laval—Les Îles, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I Having efficient and effective programs for older workers will thank my colleague from the Bloc Québécois for his remarks, with have a direct impact in my riding of Tobique—Mactaquac. For which I agree in large part. I am aware that the Bloc has been touring example, just in the last couple of years we have experienced the in Quebec's regions to gain support for its demands for a new closing of the Nackawic Pulp & Paper Mill in a small, one-industry POWA, and I cannot say that I disagree with that. town. Thankfully, this past January that mill reopened, putting The fact is, however, that a program established by the federal almost 300 people back to work. Thomas Equipment, a longtime government in 1999 has already been in place for seven years now; I equipment manufacturer in Centreville, New Brunswick, just closed am referring to the OWPPI, an initiative to help older workers get mere weeks ago. back into the workforce. I have met and talked with a number of those individuals directly During the Bloc Québécois' tours of Quebec, did the hon. member impacted by those events, and a great many fall in the category of make this new program, or new take on a program first established in older workers who I think is the key group that is envisioned by the 1999, known to his constituents? member for Chambly—Borduas. 3698 COMMONS DEBATES October 5, 2006

Business of Supply As a bridge to developing these new programs, we also have our workers will play an important role in ensuring growth and rising temporary income support programs. We had a significant discussion living standards. on this with respect to our workers at Thomas Equipment in Centreville. One part is our pure income support that we offer from In short, programs that contain only income support are not the EI, which acts as a bridge between employment assignments. The answer. They may be one part of the foundation of this new house second part is the additional benefits, such as training, work we are going to build, but they cannot be the only part. experience and support, in some cases, to become self-employed. These programs give all people, including older workers, the As Judy Cutler of the Canadian Association of Retired Persons opportunity, when out of work, to upgrade their skills to make them observed, older people are much more active. They are ready to get employable. There has been a tremendous amount of effort and a at it and ready to get out working. I can point to my father-in-law, number of these people have benefited from the $1.4 billion in who constantly reminds me every day of the 20 times that he mowed income benefits annually. my lawn this summer. He gets up in the morning and has much more energy than even his favourite son-in-law, which is what he calls me. However, in addition to considering income support, we must also look at the range of options for helping people to be employable. I say the word “employable” because that is an important word. However, we recognize that older workers left jobless due to plant Personally, I believe making people employable is a responsibility closures or downsizing in single industry communities do have that is shared, not only by the government but by corporations. greater difficulty participating in the labour market and face longer spells of unemployment. There are many causes of this, such as I go back to my examples of the closures in my riding. I think we careers in declining industries, living in remote locations and lower are past the time when any organization can guarantee employment rates of mobility. Any combination of these factors tends to magnify for life. However, as good corporate citizens, I believe we must an unemployment rate for a single industry community. I can point ensure that people continue to be employable. That concept holds to some of the small towns and villages in my community that are true for older workers who want to remain as active participants in very reliant on the forest industry, which is very up and down at this the workforce. time. The experience that older workers possess represents a great untapped resource to improve economic conditions in cities, towns Clearly, a plan that assists older workers in improving their skills and regions across the country. Brad Donnelly, of Manpower serves a dual purpose. It increases their potential for integrating into Professional in New Brunswick, recently stated, “Seniors are the workforce and also contributes to the country's labour market and educated. They are alert and are an asset to the workforce. Why economic growth. As others have mentioned, what is worth do we want to implement programs that would take them out of the emphasizing is that increased participation rates among persons workforce?” aged 50 to 64 should be a central objective of an older worker policy.

The importance of older workers to the labour market and the The member for Charlottetown commented about it this morning. economy in our country cannot be understated. We all know we have He said that income support is not the answer and that we need to an aging population and it means that we are suffering significant take a broader strategy. I could not agree more. That is why I believe labour shortages. We heard a number of comments on that point in this motion is much too narrow for the House to support. the House this morning. The effects of those shortages are already being felt in my home province of New Brunswick where a recent We should be gearing programs to older workers with the tools Moncton Times & Transcript story stated that In more and more they need to remain employable. They should not act as a workplaces across the province, lengthy vacancies in positions that disincentive to labour market participation, skills upgrading or pay good salaries have human resources specialists scratching their relocation. These programs also need to be focused, including on heads. communities that are one industry towns and villages. We will miss We are also seeing this in our fall harvest season in the riding of the mark if we put this in all regions and all economic sectors, Mr. Mike Allen (Tobique—Mactaquac, CPC) where older workers because that does not reflect the reality of our current environment. and even some seniors are playing a significant role in this year's harvest because of the shortage of people to bring in this year's In conclusion, we are finding ways to make this happen. We are potato crop. endeavouring to do this with a host of partners. It will be a However, we are not alone in facing these economic pressures. partnership among ourselves, industry, and the provinces and Other countries around the world are facing the same pressures and territories to help older unemployed workers find and keep jobs in are looking at several options to boost labour market participation. today's labour market. We are sensitive to the needs of older workers, as clearly evidenced by our many programs and our ● (1250) commitment to a feasibility study. One of the strong recommendations is to remove incentives that would encourage workers to take an early exit from the labour I can point to a situation in my home riding, where there is a market. In Canada, as we have all seen, older workers have become a significant multicultural component. Our settlement funding will principal source of labour force growth in recent years. As the allow many of the folks who have come in from South America to be Canadian population ages, encouraging the participation of older productive workers in our communities in Tobique—Mactaquac. October 5, 2006 COMMONS DEBATES 3699

Business of Supply While I appreciate and share the concern of the member for Take the worker who was 55 years old when the business he Chambly—Borduas for older workers, it would be premature to worked for closed. He upgraded his skills. He is a very educated support such a broad motion. This government must look carefully at person, in good health, and available for work. Over the course of a the complex economic and demographic environment. We must year, he applied for 92 jobs throughout the region. Because he was complete our feasibility study before taking long term action. 57, only one employer invited him to an interview, but he was not hired. Rest assured, however, that we will continue to support our older workers through present programs. We do not want to make hasty This is the reality we have to be aware of. Does my colleague decisions. We want to find the right long term solution for older realize that this is what we are talking about it? If he does, will he workers while keeping in mind the current economic and labour support the motion? market conditions at the forefront of this decision making process. [English] ● (1255) Mr. Paul Szabo (Mississauga South, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the Mr. Mike Allen: Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the member's member seems to paint a picture of some action on this file, but I comment. In fact, it is interesting to hear the member bring up this think the record will show that in both the last Conservative platform situation because I have one of those situations of my own in and their 2005 official policy declaration there was no mention Tobique—Mactaquac, in Nackawic, with a person who is around 57 whatsoever of older workers. It seems to be a new interest of the or 58 years old and is in a similar position. Conservatives now that they have formed a minority government. I think that as part of this we said that income support should be In fact, the Prime Minister has long argued against such policies. just one portion of the foundation, not the entire foundation, as I On September 25, the Prime Minister confirmed to the House that he said. We are not ruling out a place for some things like that as part of would announce a new program for older workers and that this will an overall strategy, but that cannot be the only thing. follow the feasibility study the member indicated in his speech. However, it should be noted that there was absolutely no money My concern is that with this being just income support, we have included in the 2006 budget for older workers. actually gone away from a program that was cut in 1997 and which offered much more than that. I think the member opposite said we I have questions for the member. Is this simply a matter of words? should go back to a program like that. Where is the money? Mr. Dave Batters (Palliser, CPC): Mr. Speaker, I am very Mr. Mike Allen: Mr. Speaker, what we can say is that in budget pleased to have this opportunity to respond to the motion presented 2006 we did commit to this. We have committed to our employment by the member for Chambly—Borduas, which proposes the insurance programs. We have committed to the five week program, implementation of an income support program to assist older which is a strong program for New Brunswick and affects one of the workers in all economic sectors and in all regions of this country. areas of my riding. I can assure the House that Canada's new government shares the I also want to comment, as I pointed out earlier, that there is a hon. member's concern about the challenges faced by older workers significant amount of money in our settlement funding, which brings in Canada. in a lot of new workers and immigrants. We know that as our population gets older we need to supplement those resources with As the Prime Minister emphasized recently, our nation needs older our immigration forces. Those dollars are being spent well, toward workers in the labour force if we are to maintain a strong and healthy settlement funding as well as training and education for those economy. We recognize that Canadian workers have a great wealth workers. The moneys are there to create an environment for this. We of skills and experience to contribute to the labour market. It is will take those measures. therefore absolutely critical for the well-being of the nation and the well-being of older workers that we find ways to keep them in the ● (1300) labour force and maximize our use of their knowledge, expertise and [Translation] diverse skill sets. Allow me to expand on why this is an increasingly Mr. Yves Lessard (Chambly—Borduas, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I pressing issue. would like to thank my colleague for his comments. He discussed something that we have not talked about very much: how much Like all OECD countries, Canada is facing the challenge of an easier it is for educated people to find new jobs. aging population as a result of a declining birth rate and increased life expectancy. This resultant slowing of labour force growth means Under certain circumstances, this can happen when a person lives that we will be seeing skill shortages in key industries and in a region where there are a lot of jobs that coincide with his or her occupations in regions across the country. I am sure all members skills or university training. know that these shortages could have a negative effect on GDP per capita growth and hence the standard of living of all Canadians. I would also note that, in the regions, employment possibilities are limited. Take Rivière-du-Loup, for example, which brings me to the If employment rates by age group and gender remain at current question I would like to ask my colleague. In Rivière-du-Loup, there levels, Canada's labour force will increase by less than 5% over the are about a hundred workers over 55 who are having trouble finding next 50 years, compared to the 200% growth that took place between jobs because there are no new jobs for them. 1950 and the turn of the century. 3700 COMMONS DEBATES October 5, 2006

Business of Supply It is a remarkable and revealing fact that older workers in Canada out between 1999 to May of this year, showed us for example that have become our principal source of labour force growth in recent the best outcomes were achieved through approaches that combined years. Between 1995 and 2005, their participation in the labour force employment assistance services like job counselling and job saw an increase of 11%. There is no doubt that this recent reversal of placement services with training, marketing and job experience. the long decline in the labour force participation rate for older workers is good news for them and for our nation. Participants in the older workers pilot projects made it clear that older workers wanted training that was practical and relevant. I Nevertheless, older workers' participation in the labour force is believe that determination illustrates just how much older workers in still far below the rate for so-called prime age workers. In 2005, the Canada want to continue to contribute to our economy in a practical older workers' labour force participation rate was 58%, as opposed to and concrete way that makes the most of their abilities. 87% for prime age workers. The difference between the two rates represents a tremendous loss of skills and expertise from which our labour force could greatly benefit. The government is well aware of the many solutions available to mitigate the slowdown in labour force growth, such as increased Looking to the future, we see that the potential of older workers is immigration, but it appears that one of the most practical and viable even greater. Between 2000 and 2020, the portion of our population solutions is to access the untapped potential of our older workers. If aged 55 to 64 will increase by about 50%. Given the economic the participation rates for Canadians aged 50 years to 64 years were repercussions of a declining labour force, we simply cannot afford to to increase on average just one-half of a percentage point each year, let older workers' skills and experience go unused. This is an issue we could increase labour supply by 13% by 2030. the government is committed to tackling. These statistics tell a story of tremendous potential that is critical We are very aware of the particular challenges that older workers to the future prosperity of the nation. encounter when they try to rejoin the labour market after an early exit, and certainly we are very sympathetic to their plight. We know, In summary, I am confident that the government's feasibility study for example, that recent closures and layoffs in the textile and pulp will help us to arrive at the best possible solutions for ensuring the and paper industries have affected a large number of older workers crucial potential of older workers is realized now and in the decades and that some older Canadians have difficulty re-entering the to come. For this reason, I am unable to support the motion workforce. These are challenges we are working to resolve. presented by the member for Chambly—Borduas. Perhaps there will As this House is aware, under part II of the Employment Insurance be some amendments. I look forward to members' questions. Act, unemployed Canadians, including older workers, may qualify for active re-employment benefits to help them find and keep new ● (1310) employment. These programs range from training and skills Mr. Francis Scarpaleggia (Lac-Saint-Louis, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, upgrading to work experience and support in becoming self- I picked up on one particular aspect of the member's comments employed. I am pleased to inform the House that over 80,000 older which was that he would like to see the supply of older workers in workers over the age of 50 participated in EI part II programs last the labour market increase. year. As I noted earlier, we believe, as the OECD suggests, that I would ask the member if, by way of incentives, he thinks that the optimizing older workers' participation in the labour market is one of government should cut income taxes and allow income splitting so the best means we have to offset the decline in labour force growth that senior citizens are taxed less on their marginal income. that we and many other nations are experiencing. Mr. Dave Batters: Mr. Speaker, this government is extremely ● (1305) proud of the measures that we have already undertaken, especially in It is for all these reasons that budget 2006 provided $400 million budget 2006, to reduce income taxes for all Canadians. We are in funding to the forestry sector to assist Canadians affected by extremely proud of that. All Canadians have benefited and certainly global economic adjustments. This is also why we are conducting a older workers have benefited. feasibility study to evaluate current and potential measures to address the challenges faced by displaced older workers. These I say through you, Mr. Speaker, to my friend opposite, stay tuned challenges include such diverse options as the need for improved for more good news in terms of allowing Canadians to keep more of training and the possibility of enhanced income support. The their hard-earned money, because frankly that is what this feasibility study will also provide recommendations on how we can government is all about. best assist older workers over the long term. Regarding the income-splitting suggestion, I am sure Minister In the meantime we are continuing to address the challenges of Flaherty will take that comment under advisement— unemployed older workers. We will continue to focus on offering laid off workers, including older workers, assistance such as The Acting Speaker (Mr. Royal Galipeau): The Minister of opportunities for skills development and new work experience. As Finance is the man to whom you were referring, I suppose. part of this process we will be building on lessons learned from government pilot projects specifically designed to meet older Mr. Dave Batters: Mr. Speaker, yes, of course, the Minister of workers' needs. The older workers pilot projects initiative, carried Finance I am sure will take that suggestion to heart. October 5, 2006 COMMONS DEBATES 3701

Business of Supply Anything basically that we can do to limit the tax burden of of the people at Moose Jaw Pork Packers. We are doing everything Canadians, that is what this government is aiming to do. Certainly we can on this side of the House to help displaced workers. that benefits all older workers and indeed, the entire country. Mrs. Lynne Yelich (Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of We believe this is a huge opportunity for this country in terms of Human Resources and Social Development, CPC): Mr. Speaker, I helping to address the labour shortages. Older workers are a critical would like to ask the hon. member why older workers are being part of our labour force and our economy. We in this government are encouraged to remain active in the labour market. going to do everything we can to stand behind these individuals. Mr. Dave Batters: Mr. Speaker, I think the parliamentary secretary certainly appreciates the importance of keeping older The member asked if I can support his motion. Not as it currently workers engaged in the labour market. There are strong indications stands. There are far too many unknowns. I sat here and listened with that older workers can and want to work longer, if only on a part interest this morning. We do not have a price tag put on this motion. time basis. Older workers provide a valuable contribution to the It is a pretty important thing that we address all the costs involved. I labour market which is important to the economic well-being of this will listen with great interest though if there are any amendments put country. I covered that at length in my speech. forward. In light of Canada's aging population and growing labour [Translation] shortages in various sectors of the economy, it is essential to provide tools and opportunities to help experienced workers stay Mrs. Claude DeBellefeuille (Beauharnois—Salaberry, BQ): active in the labour force. It is critical for this country. Mr. Speaker, I am going to be sharing my time with the distinguished member for Bas-Richelieu—Nicolet—Bécancour. [Translation] Mr. Yves Lessard (Chambly—Borduas, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I I feel very ambivalent about addressing the House today on the would like to remind the House that the Standing Committee on Bloc Québécois motion on its opposition day. Human Resources, Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities—of which the parliamentary secretary is a member —is currently reviewing the employability issue. As members of the On the one hand, I am pleased to have the privilege of stating how Bloc Québécois, we are making a positive contribution to this work important I feel it is to institute a real income support program for to enable older workers to keep working as long as possible. older workers that would apply to all older workers in all economic sectors in all regions. But that is not the issue here. Let us be perfectly clear. This is about people who, because of regional and employment constraints, On the other hand, I am disappointed to have to explain once cannot find a new job. Again, I ask my colleague: Is he aware that again to the elected members of this House—especially the people are experiencing these difficulties? If he is, will he vote in government members— how important and urgent it is to have a favour of this motion to help them? program like the one stipulated in the motion. ● (1315) [English] Maybe it is necessary at this point to tell the people watching us on television all they need to know in order to understand the Mr. Dave Batters: Mr. Speaker, government members on this relentless struggle that the Bloc Québécois and the workers and side of the House believe in older workers. We believe in giving labour unions of Quebec have waged since 1997 to institute an older them choices and empowering older workers through training and worker support program. Actually, it would be more accurate to skills development to enable them to get back into the workforce. Of speak of restoring the program. course we are very sympathetic to the plight of older workers who are trying to rejoin the workforce. We are going to help them in every way possible because we recognize the important role that Such a program used to exist and is not completely new. The 1988 older workers play in Canada and the tremendous contribution they program provided for benefits to be paid to eligible workers between 55 and 64 years of age who had lost their jobs as a result of major, make. I covered that in my speech. It is critical to the success of our permanent layoffs. In this way, the gap was bridged between country. employment insurance benefits and the pension plan. Under the In my riding of Palliser a pork plant employing 300 people, Liberal reign, with the hon. member for LaSalle—Émard as finance Worldwide Pork, declared bankruptcy. It has reconstituted itself into minister, this program was terminated in 1997. a company called Moose Jaw Pork Packers . It is going through some difficulties right now and is adjusting its business plan. It was a shared-cost program: 70% was covered by the federal government and 30% by the participating provinces. Since its I have talked to people like Lawrence Peverette in Moose Jaw disappearance in March 1997, there has not been any income support who called me repeatedly to talk about the plight of people who were program for older workers victimized by mass layoffs or factory thrown into unemployment, not just so-called prime age workers but closings. older workers as well. I am very sympathetic. I talked repeatedly with the minister and The Bloc Québécois worked very hard on many occasions in the with the parliamentary secretary as to how the government could last Parliament to have a support program instituted for older best help these people. They were very receptive to hearing the story workers. 3702 COMMONS DEBATES October 5, 2006

Business of Supply I remember a motion introduced by the Bloc Québécois in June it is that the government do something. Concrete examples are good 2005 asking for a strategy to help older workers who lose their jobs, ways of illustrating that beyond our parliamentary debates, beyond which would have included income support. The Liberals, who were the studies that are not being done, beyond the ready-made answers in power at the time, did nothing. from the Minister of Human Resources and Social Development during question period—things that mean nothing to the people of In April 2006, the elected members of this House unanimously Huntingdon—there are people, right now as I am speaking to you, passed an amendment to the amendment of the Speech from the who are living in a degrading and humiliating situation. Throne, introduced by the Bloc, which had the same thrust as the motion of June 2005. Those people, older textile workers, have been abandoned and they are now disappointed and disillusioned. They wanted to believe Since last spring, the Minister of Human Resources and Social the Conservatives, who had promised them the assistance they were Development has been telling us about a feasibility study whose asking for, but they quickly changed their tune when they saw the results are still unknown. For several weeks, the minister has kept real face of the government—a government that has abandoned older older workers in Quebec, who are in despair after losing their jobs, workers to their fate just as the previous one did. They have realized holding their breath by saying she will make an announcement that the Bloc Québécois is the only party fighting for them, the only shortly. A member of her staff, probably for lack of any substance, party that is making their voices heard in the House of Commons. told that to callers to his office who have been waiting for good news. He kept them holding their breath by saying that announce- Since I was elected I have worked hard with the older textile ments and programs were on the way. He encouraged them to be workers of Huntingdon and with all of the stakeholders in the patient. His lack of professional ethics even led him to tell desperate community, which has mobilized around the tragic situation of the workers in my riding not to be discouraged that he would be glad to people affected by the textile plant closures where they live. join them for a coffee in Huntingdon to celebrate the occasion. These citizens, these older workers, are asking only to be able to This situation cannot go on. It is inhuman. The Minister of Human work and to get their dignity back. Resources and Social Development must put an end to this horrible suspense. The government must, as the Bloc Québécois insists, Large numbers of these textile workers made efforts to find new introduce a real program of income support for older workers that jobs. Some of them took training courses and some of them found will apply to all older workers in all sectors of economic activity in work with other companies, but unfortunately a majority of the older all regions, as set out in our motion. workers have been unable to find another job, largely because of ● (1320) their age. I would like now to talk about the situation of people, residents, This is not a matter of paying people to do nothing. That idea is taxpayers, textile workers of the town of Huntingdon, in my riding, going around right now and it is very insulting to these citizens who who lost their jobs through the closing of six textile plants on have worked all their lives and who have contributed all their lives to December 13, 2004. Those closings resulted in the loss of 800 jobs, the development of Quebec and Canada. We have got to realize that affecting 70%—I repeat, 70%—of the working population of the large numbers of older workers, workers who are 55 and over, are municipality of Huntingdon. More than 100 older workers lost their not employers’ first choice. How much frustration, disappointment jobs—in particular, workers age 55 and older—and today they find and humiliation will they have to live with, because while they know themselves with no prospects. that they have the experience and the desire, employers do not pick them, preferring the younger and healthier workers who are available For the benefit of the people who are listening to us and watching over them. us on television, it is important to emphasize that the textile and clothing industry is in a crisis. The industry must adapt to a trading I am sorry to say that it seems clear that in addition to being environment that has changed dramatically in recent years. On victimized by global agreements negotiated over their heads, older December 31, 2004, the Agreement on Textiles and Clothing, which workers are being victimized by a kind of ageism as well. had been in force since 1995, came to an end. The end of this ● (1325) agreement meant that the borders of Canada and Quebec are more open to imports, especially imports from China, which are growing This is a reality that does not seem— sharply. The Acting Speaker (Mr. Royal Galipeau): We now move to I am not telling you anything you do not already know, Mr. questions and comments. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Speaker, when I say that it is the federal government that is Minister of the Environment. responsible for opening our borders. [English] And the United States, the most important market for Quebec Mr. Mark Warawa (Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister exports, has signed a series of agreements to facilitate the entry into of the Environment, CPC): Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the comments that country of clothing made abroad out of American fabric, and the commitment of the hon. member. resulting in a corresponding reduction in access for clothing manufactured using Quebec textiles. I personally have a little difficulty with the term “older worker”.I am 56, so I find myself in that category. I do not consider myself old. I want to talk about the older textile workers at Huntingdon in Mr. Speaker, I do not consider you to be old. Many of my colleagues particular, to show through these very concrete examples how urgent here who are in that age group, I do not consider to be old. October 5, 2006 COMMONS DEBATES 3703

Business of Supply I went to university. I took some criminal courses and found it In light of the Conservatives not putting any money in the 2006 fascinating. Members cannot understand that feeling. I found that budget for older persons and with the cancellation of the older most of the students, and we did not called them older students, we workers pilot projects which delivered $55 million over their called them mature students, were in this age group. We have heard duration in May of this year, so what the minister is saying is that the some comments, which are a little bit over the top, that if we are in Conservatives are doing nothing for older persons. Does the hon. this age group, we are not able to learn. That is utter nonsense. member think it will adversely affect the region? People in this age group are very capable of learning. If people find [Translation] themselves in a situation where they need help, the government does want to provide that help. The Acting Speaker (Mr. Royal Galipeau): The time allocated to the hon. member for Beauharnois— Salaberry has expired, but I The motion before us says: will grant him 20 seconds more. That the House reiterate to the government the importance of implementing a real Mrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: Mr. Speaker, I thank your for your income support program for older workers that would apply to all older workers in all economic sectors, in all regions. generosity. The definition is so tight that it makes it difficult to support. There In reply to my colleague's question, I live in a region where there are different areas of Canada that have different dynamics in are many one-industry towns. economics, in job availability, and in retraining availability. Would The Bloc Québécois wants this program because it wants to the member be willing to slightly change that motion by inserting the support older workers aged 55 and over who are the victims of word “displaced”? So instead of the motion saying “all older massive layoffs. This program is important to all regions where workers”, and I could be considered an older worker, it would say workers have been affected by such layoffs. “all displaced older workers”. Would there be an appetite to look at an amendment? Mr. Louis Plamondon (Bas-Richelieu—Nicolet—Bécancour, BQ): Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure to take part in this debate. First of ● (1330) all I would like to congratulate my colleague, the member for [Translation] Beauharnois—Salaberry, who just made an exceptional speech providing a very good overview of the situation of older workers and Mrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague clearly indicating the need for the POWA program. from across the floor for his question. I would like to look at the problem from a different perspective. I personally visited a textile factory and met women and men aged But first I would like to indicate that there are high expectations for 56 to 59 who have been working 35 or 40 years in that factory. They this program in my riding. For example, in a few weeks Norsk use the term “older worker” themselves. After having worked hard in Hydro in Bécancour may close. The company has let it be known a physical job, for a scant salary and meagre benefits, these people that it will shut down if the plant is not sold. Thus, older workers will do not present themselves as young, healthy workers. However, I be unemployed at the age of 55, 58 or 60 and, as my colleague has must emphasize something very important, which is that older explained, will have little chance of finding another job. workers have a wealth of skills and experience, and for the most part, want to work. But with the job market as competitive as it is, Naturally, all manner of training will be provided, resumes will be employers generally prefer not to hire workers aged 55 and older. mailed everywhere and the union, the company and Human Resources Canada will lend their support. Nevertheless, if it all In my riding, there is a 59-year-old man with considerable leads to nothing, they will need the help of POWA. What shocks me experience whose main source of self-worth is his work. For him, his about the attitude of the Conservative members on the other side is whole life is his work. He is intelligent, knows many people and is that this program had been implemented previously and had already resourceful. He attended approximately 35 interviews and no one proven itself. will hire him. He has received all the training and retraining he can, yet despite all his efforts and all the government's efforts to help him I have seen the program in action in my riding. For example, I reintegrate into the job market, he has not been successful. remember the workers at Marine Industrie. The program benefited 300 workers, at least 60 of whom had a grade three education. Try to The program we are proposing is intended precisely for these retrain someone who has repeated the same actions in a factory for individuals who, despite their best efforts, and all their energy, 30 or 35 years and ask that person to learn a new technology. That is intelligence and skills, cannot reintegrate into the workforce because what is so terrible. At the time, these people were able to receive of their age. support. The same happened at Tioxide and Beloit when those plants [English] closed. In the riding neighbouring mine, Sidbec-Dosco suffered The Acting Speaker (Mr. Royal Galipeau): The hon. member dramatic job losses, and POWA was implemented. for Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe for a short question. This program has been tested in other plants such as Soreltex and Mr. Brian Murphy (Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, Lib.): Mr. Kuchibel and in smaller companies in towns like Saint-Ours, Speaker, this will be a short question and it has to do with the regions Yamaska, Pierreville and Nicolet. And that is just in my riding. Other of this country. In our region there are many more older persons than ridings have also benefited from POWA. For years, employers, in other parts of the country. I suspect it is the same way for rural unions, communities and municipal, provincial and federal politi- regions in Quebec. cians have clamoured for this program. 3704 COMMONS DEBATES October 5, 2006

Business of Supply When I listened to the speech by the member for Mégantic— perhaps because they do not have permission from their party to do L'Érable this morning, what I heard was that they were going to so. Rather, they are here to make cuts. They are here to allocate study the data and set up more committees to look at which program funding for military equipment and for all sorts of programs except would be best. What the member for Mégantic—L'Érable is telling for those to help those who need help. Above all, they are here to the people who work in the mines in his riding is that the make cuts that affect the most vulnerable. But we will have more to government could not care less about them; it is busy conducting say about this during the next election. studies. The government has forgotten about the workers in the textile plants in his riding who are crying out for this program. In closing, the income support program for older workers—so thoroughly explained by my colleague earlier—is not a luxury. These Conservatives from Quebec claimed that they were coming here and effectively representing the people of Quebec, the people in This does not constitute excessive spending. This is purely their ridings, by bringing in new ideas. They said that they were common sense: a government recognizes that its citizens who have going to help workers in difficulty, that there would be initiatives and worked 30 or 40 years in a factory did so in good faith and with all programs for them. the goodwill in the world. It recognizes them by supporting them for a time, if, unfortunately, the economy goes through a slump. All the When they were in opposition, the Conservatives who had voted better if these workers find another job. If they cannot find one, the with the Bloc in favour of a motion on POWA said that they were government will support them to age 60, and with the pension plan going to grow in numbers. They said that once they were in power, to age 65, so that these workers can continue to live with dignity. they would be able to implement POWA. The Bloc could talk about it, but they were going to be able to implement it. That is the general idea of the program. When I hear Conservative members say that this is not urgent, that they are going to conduct Today, the members from Quebec who made those claims are studies, this reveals where their real priorities are. sitting with their heads down, not daring to say a word. Their way of ● (1340) exercising true power is to stay silent and abandon helpless workers who have lost their jobs. [English] Mrs. Lynne Yelich (Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of I was shocked to hear the member for Mégantic—L'Érable say, Human Resources and Social Development, CPC): Mr. Speaker, head held high, that it was not necessary right now, and that we need does the motion take into account the issue of shared jurisdiction to study the issue. because the members on our side of the House take it into consideration? They think the Canadian labour market is an area of Where are the members for Lévis—Bellechasse, Louis-Hébert, both federal and provincial jurisdiction. The motion does not speak Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la- to any cost sharing mechanism between provinces and the federal Chaudière, and Beauport—Limoilou? Where are the ministers from government. Beauce, Jonquière, Pontiac, and Saint-Laurent? Will they rise to speak on behalf of the workers, to say that yes, this is the right thing We are the federal government, Therefore, the government to do, to say they will implement a POWA program and invest a few members he cited, from his province of Quebec, are not taking into million dollars to help those who need help? consideration that we are a federal government making decisions on a federal program, trying to help all Canadians who have to be They say we need consultations. Did the government consult employed and re-employed. anyone when it decided to spend $17 billion on military equipment? [Translation] ● (1335) Mr. Louis Plamondon: Mr. Speaker, I know this is a federal- Did it consult anyone then? Did it consult anyone when it decided provincial program. However, I would like to inform the hon. to extend the mission in Afghanistan? It made the decision in a member who just spoke that the three political parties in Quebec's single motion, without warning, without consulting the population, National assembly are unanimously calling on the federal govern- without consulting the House and without debate. It was ready. But it ment to reinstate an older workers support program. The Govern- has nothing to offer to workers who need help. ment of Quebec is prepared to do its part. A few weeks ago, when the government cut a billion dollars from An older workers support program is subject to agreement with women's groups, when it cut a billion dollars from literacy—from each province. If a particular province does not want the program those who need it most—did it consult anyone? Did it form that is not a problem; they will not have one. However, in Quebec, committees? Did it conduct studies? No, it did not. Yet it is still all the political parties are unanimously calling for this program and studying the matter of helping workers and wants to take all the time the necessary funding to be invested for its implementation. All that necessary. is missing is a decision and a few million dollars from the federal An hon. member: You are being cynical. government. [English] Mr. Louis Plamondon: Of course I am being cynical. Mr. Rodger Cuzner (Cape Breton—Canso, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I call upon the 10 Conservative members from Quebec to tell them I want to commend the motion and the debate going forward in the that they are breaking their promises. They claimed that they would House today. I sat with the member for Chambly—Borduas on address the needs of workers once in power, but are now silent. I see several committees in regard to this issue. I fully expected the Bloc them across from me, with their heads down, not daring to rise, to put forward a motion on this. My intention is to support it. October 5, 2006 COMMONS DEBATES 3705

Business of Supply I come from a coastal area of Nova Scotia. There are a great According to a study released by Statistics Canada in May 2005, number of fishing communities within my constituency. The fishery 39% of workers aged 56 and over are less likely to find a job than in communities like Canso, Louisbourg and Cheticamp has gone Canadian workers in general. I know that the member opposite does through a tremendous amount of change over the last number of not think that a 55 year old person is old, but many employers do. years. Some older workers have grown up in the fishery. They have This anomaly can be explained partly by the fact that employers may the need, the want and the ability to move forward and receive discriminate against older workers and may prefer to train younger training. Others feel fear, despair and have very little hope. The older people, so that the investment made will benefit them in the much workers pilot project in the past provided older workers with extra longer term. training and they went on to other opportunities. I see merit in this motion going forward today. Members from both sides of the House will agree that holding a It will come down to one thing however. I am very disappointed job has a significant impact on people's dignity and self-confidence, with the position of the government on this. The cancellation of the particularly when they have a family. Being part of the labour force literacy program and others are of great concern to older workers. I is important to an individual, because it allows him to understand his am coming in late on this debate, but I would like to know this. I environment and, to a lesser extent, the world in which he lives. know what it costs to do nothing for these workers, but has a costing been done on this initiative? ● (1345) That is precisely why, from 1999 to 2005, the previous Liberal [Translation] government invested $55 million in initiatives involving pilot projects for older workers. This was meant to be the basis of what Mr. Louis Plamondon: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member asked could have been an income support program that would meet the exactly the right question. needs of a very vulnerable group. Right now, it may be necessary to spend a few million dollars for the POWA program, but what will happen if nothing is done? The Liberal government undertook these national pilot projects The psychological and physical impact on individuals will be because we discovered upon taking power that the programs were much greater. However, there will also be a very serious economic not very well thought through and unfair to older workers. The impact on the provincial government and the federal government. programs instituted by the previous Conservative government under We all benefit when our workers have a decent basic income. This Mr. Mulroney applied only to sectors in which there had been a lot of money does not just get stuffed in their pockets; they put it back into layoffs. The needs of the country as a whole were totally ignored the economy every time they go to the garage, the corner store or because not all provinces and regions could access the programs, buy the basic necessities. despite regional disparities in the supply of jobs for older workers. The government puts money in the economy. Some of this money comes back to it and ensures that these people can live in dignity for Studies show that retirement may now be a thing of the past. a few years until they reach retirement. That is all this is about. It Canadians may have to work until they are 70 years old, not because seems so obvious to me. they want to, in some cases, but because the gaps in the workforce will be so large that employers will no longer be able to engage in It is odd that these Conservative members who had voted in the kind of discrimination against older workers that I was talking favour of a similar motion are today unable to see the value in this about earlier based on the fact that they may be overqualified or do motion. not have the technological knowledge or the tools to function in Ms. Raymonde Folco (Laval—Les Îles, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I what is increasingly a knowledge-based society. Older workers want will split my time with the hon. member for Halifax West. retraining. That is why the Liberals had these pilot projects. I am rising today to take part in the debate on the motion presented by the hon. member for Chambly—Borduas. Innumerable men and women have knocked on my riding office As was mentioned by the member who spoke before me, the door in Laval—Les Îles to tell me that they had been let go. In some Liberals support the underlying principle of the motion. The official cases, they held quite senior management positions. Now, unfortu- opposition supports the motion, because we believe in the nately, they found themselves unemployed and did not know where fundamental rights of all workers, and particularly the rights of to turn. They tried to retrain but still were not offered any jobs, even Canadian workers who are over 55. These workers get laid off more though they had a lot of experience. frequently, their jobs may become obsolete because of new technologies, or they may find themselves out of work because companies are going bankrupt in some sectors of the economy. Of the 125 projects across all of Canada, 74 were in Quebec. This means that 60% of all the subsidized projects for older workers were Many workers who are over 55 face prejudice when they apply for in my province. We got about $21 million of the funds allocated for a job, because employers feel they are overqualified. These workers new training and other employment needs. However, the Liberals did are not hired because the experience that they have gained over the not just ignore the rest of Canada, as the Conservatives are doing, years works against them. because we work for all Canadians, regardless of where they live. 3706 COMMONS DEBATES October 5, 2006

Business of Supply ● (1350) Ms. Raymonde Folco: Mr. Speaker, I really do not see where the question leads us. Last year, the Liberal government allocated $5 million to extend the program until May 2006, for a total of $55 million. Now, [Translation] unfortunately, this program no longer exists. The Conservative government also has not given any indication of how it is going to The Liberal government met the needs that existed in the past and use the results of the Liberal pilot projects and put them toward that still exist now. When such needs are non-existent or few, we longer-term projects, even though the Conservative government adjust accordingly. promised to do so in the last throne speech. Clearly, the Liberal government's program and pilot projects were We on this side of the House still hope that the new Conservative indeed Canada-wide initiatives, so as to have the flexibility to adjust government will undertake a well-intentioned study of these pilot to the various conditions prevailing across the country. projects before eliminating them. People do not want a program that will not meet the needs of all Canadians. Now, I doubt very much that there are regions where older workers have absolutely no problems at all. In my riding of Laval— If I still have a few minutes, I would like to speak briefly about Les Îles, the City of Laval is a thriving community where people other Liberal investments in working people. Among other work and raise families, and where many jobs are available. Yet, I programs, I would like to speak very, very much—because it is so know of hundreds of workers who wanted to continue to work but important—about the Canadian workplace skills strategy. The could not do so because they were over 55. Liberal government instituted this strategy in 2004 to help working Mr. Yves Lessard (Chambly—Borduas, BQ): Mr. Speaker, my people upgrade their knowledge in order to keep up with a colleague from Laval—Les Îles almost spoke to me directly in her workplace that is constantly changing, we must admit. questions on the strategic framework of the motion. I would say to her the following. In the 2005 budget, the Liberals added new credits of $125 million, over a three-year period. Today, the new Conservative The motion as presented is of the same order as that prepared by government announced a $17 million cut in the funding for the the Standing Committee on Human Resources and Skills Develop- Canadian workplace skills strategy, as part of its $1 billion budget ment, which my colleague chaired. It was passed unanimously. cuts. And then, as the Bloc Québécois member pointed out, there is Why? Because the parameters remained to be defined. It is not up to this other $17.7 million. This is that much less money available for the House to define them, but the House must nonetheless be made literacy programs. aware—she is right—of what an income support benefit should Earlier this week, I mentioned in the House that in Quebec, consist in for older workers for example. In this case, our guide is the according to statistics, almost 50% of Quebeckers aged to 16 to 65 equivalent of an employment insurance benefit, which is currently do not have the reading skills required to fully function in our half an employee's income, but we are asking that it be 60% of the society. This is despite the fact that the government has surpluses in employee's income. excess of $13 billion. Once again, older workers may end up being I would also like my colleague to indicate whether she agrees with ignored by this government. what I am saying and whether she will support my motion in its Is this the Conservatives' idea of a responsible government? Is this current form. the Conservatives' idea of standing up for these people? The Acting Speaker (Mr. Royal Galipeau): The hon. member for Laval—Les Îles for a short answer. I will conclude by asking Bloc Québécois members to elaborate on their vision of an income support program for older workers. Ms. Raymonde Folco: Mr. Speaker, I will be very brief. While the purpose of this motion may be laudable, and I agree that it is, its wording is not specific enough regarding the workings of such I said at the very start—unless I forgot—but I think in my speech I a support program. showed my enthusiasm for the Bloc Québécois motion and I certainly intend to vote in favour of this motion. ● (1355) Mr. Robert Vincent (Shefford, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I have the [English] following question for my colleague from Laval—Les Îles. Mrs. Lynne Yelich (Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Human Resources and Social Development, CPC): Mr. Speaker, She mentioned all the pilot projects the Liberals had implemented, as I was listening to the hon. member speak, I could not help but hear but the only project, the only thing we are asking for is the POWA. her say that they had programs for all Canadians. I would ask her to The very POWA they abolished in 1997 whose reinstatement we think about this. Some areas in Canada have lower levels of have been calling for ever since. unemployment and ample opportunities for employment. Older workers in those communities do not need access to income supports What is preventing its reinstatement after so many government as there are opportunities for work. In fact, 44% of unemployed studies? There should be an answer to that. older workers live outside of censused metropolitan areas. ● (1400) Thus, how does this motion take the different situations in the The Acting Speaker (Mr. Royal Galipeau): The hon. member labour market across Canada into account and into consideration? for Laval—Les Îles for a very short answer. October 5, 2006 COMMONS DEBATES 3707

Statements by Members Ms. Raymonde Folco: Mr. Speaker, I would just like to say that I Today is an opportunity to celebrate these teachers and thank them think this is not the time to discuss the whys and wherefores of for their work. something that happened in the past. I ask the House to join me in saluting the effort and dedication of In addition, I would tell my illustrious colleague to pose the the men and women across this nation who make such a significant question to the party on the other side of the House and ask why difference in the lives of our youth. The contributions of teachers are there are no longer any programs to help seniors. That is the real not only essential, but absolutely invaluable. question. *** [Translation] STATEMENTS BY MEMBERS CANADIAN WOMEN'S CURLING CHAMPIONSHIP [Translation] Mr. Michel Guimond (Montmorency—Charlevoix—Haute- VINCENT PLANTE Côte-Nord, BQ): Mr. Speaker, in a letter addressed to the General Mr. Steven Blaney (Lévis—Bellechasse, CPC): Mr. Speaker, on Manager of Curling Québec, dated July 31, 2006, Warren Hansen, Friday, September 29, I had the honour of hosting a cocktail party at Manager of Event Operations and Media at the Canadian Curling my riding office in Lévis for Vincent Plante and his family, to Association announced his decision not to hold the Canadian congratulate Mr. Plante on winning the Governor General's Caring women's curling championship, the Scotties Tournament of Hearts, Canadian Award. in Quebec City in 2008. The association cited linguistic issues, among others, for this decision. Today, I would like to pay tribute to the unconditional dedication of a man who has worked for more than 30 years to improve the Quebec City is host to many international events and the language living conditions of the less fortunate in our society. laws have never interfered. Refusing to hold an event in Quebec City As an adolescent, Vincent Plante was already organizing activities for reasons of language is simply incomprehensible. to benefit his parish. Since then, with his wife, Nicole, his brothers, Gérard, Louis and Aurélien, and his sisters-in-law, whom I also The linguistic issue was resolved in Quebec a long time ago and salute, he has worked to improve the lives of others. He visits the nothing can justify Curling Canada's decision. The government elderly in several facilities and also serves communion at Hôtel-Dieu should approach this agency to ensure that Quebec City is no longer de Lévis hospital. He told me that he had sometimes spoken the final discriminated against because of the French language. words of comfort to patients before their passing. With their enchanted Christmas tree, the Plante family brings joy and Christmas *** gifts to children—sometimes the only gift they receive. [English] Mr. Plante provides outstanding care without making distinctions or passing judgment. As we say where I come from, his heart is in WILD SALMON STOCKS the right place. This award also honours all the volunteers in Lévis— Mr. Nathan Cullen (Skeena—Bulkley Valley, NDP): Mr. Bellechasse and Les Etchemins, and I want to say thank you to Mr. Speaker, once again this week another independent report has come Plante, because he symbolizes our country's generosity. out raising the alarm about the harm that open net fish farms cause to wild salmon stocks. *** [English] The research that was published in one of the world's most prestigious journals shows that more than 95% of the wild salmon TEACHERS that swim past fish farms die as a result of sea lice infestations from Mr. Alan Tonks (York South—Weston, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I those farms. According to Dr. Andy Dobson, an epidemiologist from rise today to recognize teachers in York South—Weston and across Princeton University who specializes in wildlife diseases, “The work Canada on this World Teachers' Day. is of an impeccably high standard, and will be very difficult to refute”. I was fortunate enough to spend 12 years as a teacher and have the utmost respect for the dedication and commitment required of every Now, the debate on the subject has been settled for years, but the educator at every level. government is acting much like the old government in not taking the Through their daily work, Canadian teachers make a remarkable necessary action. It sounds like more of the same. contribution to our national fabric by fostering our children's capacity and desire to learn. There is no need to talk to the skeptics. DFO which is in charge of this file is meant to protect our wild stocks and meant to protect the On World Teachers' Day we are also reminded of the challenges fish that swim in our waters. It is time for this out of touch facing teachers as they diligently work to impart pupils with a solid department to stand up and do what is right and do what it needs to education while making our schools welcoming, encouraging and do. It is time for the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans to show some inclusive. leadership on this file. 3708 COMMONS DEBATES October 5, 2006

Statements by Members ● (1405) community service. They are the future leaders of Ukraine, young people like Olga Zhdanova from my office. BIOFUELS STRATEGY Mr. David Anderson (Cypress Hills—Grasslands, CPC): Mr. Canada and Ukraine are inextricably linked forever by prior Speaker, these days everyone is talking about biofuels. Across the migration. Fully one in 30 Canadians are of Ukrainian descent, as are country there is a buzz about this developing industry. Standards are my wife and daughters. being set, policies put in place and plants are being built. Ukraine holds a special place in the hearts of Canadians. Canada Provincial governments must move quickly if they wish to was the first country in the western world to accord diplomatic establish an industry in their jurisdiction. recognition in 1990 to an independent Ukraine. One of the biggest surprises that I received after the election was As the young emissaries depart, we wish them well and say to realize how little the previous government had done on this file. mnohaya lita, best wishes. The new federal government has worked hard in a short time to put a comprehensive biofuels strategy in place. It will be released this fall *** and will address both ethanol and biodiesel. [Translation] We have worked hard to make sure that producer ownership is a ALBERTA HUMAN RIGHTS COMMISSION part of the alternate fuels equation. Ms. Pauline Picard (Drummond, BQ): Mr. Speaker, in a recent If we do not ensure that producers have the ability to fully ruling, the Chief Commissioner of the Alberta Human Rights participate in the biofuels sector, we will have failed them. Commission denied a verbal harassment complaint filed by a francophone Albertan, Gilles Caron, against the City of Edmonton, Cypress AgriEnergy Inc. has worked for years to advance the case his former employer. for ethanol development in my area and it is at it again. It has gone together with Action Southwest to sponsor a forum on ethanol in After being fired for using offensive language with a colleague, Shaunavon, Saskatchewan scheduled for October 12. It brings Mr. Caron also filed a verbal harassment complaint and the together a wealth of information and I, along with 400 others, will be commissioner denied the complaint last June. In the commissioner's there to learn more about the industry. opinion, terms like “Frenchie” or “maple syrup” were not significant Once again, southwest Saskatchewan leads the way. or offensive enough for a tribunal hearing. *** It is unacceptable to be the target of repeated discriminatory remarks in the workplace, regardless of what provokes those SRI LANKA remarks. Mr. Caron pointed out that the commissioner's comments in Hon. Judy Sgro (York West, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I rise today to his decision show what little attention is given to discriminatory urge the government to assist in working for a peaceful solution to remarks toward francophones. the conflict in Sri Lanka and to condemn the brutal attacks that have led to such loss of life. This kind of violence cannot be tolerated by The Bloc Québécois sincerely hopes that the government does not the international community. endorse this decision. My riding of York West has a significant population of Tamil *** Canadians and I have heard from many members of the community [English] who are very upset by the recent actions of the Colombo government. We must provide whatever assistance is necessary to CHAMPIONS OF MENTAL HEALTH AWARD ensure stability in Sri Lanka and to work toward a sustainable peace Mrs. Betty Hinton (Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, CPC): and immediate end to the violence that has cost so many lives. Mr. Speaker, it is my pleasure to rise in the House today and recognize an outstanding constituent who is also the winner of the I call upon the government to work without delay to establish 2006 Champions of Mental Health Award. peace and security in Sri Lanka. The government must work to find a solution that fully respects the rights of the Tamil people and that Denise Taylor is an accomplished Métis woman with a wealth of will lead to a lasting peace. both personal and professional experience in the field of mental *** health. This impassioned woman has raised the profile of aboriginal people suffering from mental illness and delivered her message CANADA-UKRAINE PARLIAMENTARY PROGRAM regarding the need to identify and embrace cultural identity as a tool Mr. Peter Goldring (Edmonton East, CPC): Mr. Speaker, I to heal mental health afflictions. Denise has accomplished this wish to recognize 20 youthful delegates from Ukraine who have through volunteerism, for which she won the 2003 Woman of visited with us for the past three weeks. They are here in members' Distinction Award from the YWCA, and her work as an aboriginal offices to gain knowledge of the value and perspectives of Canada's policy advisor for interior health. most important democratic institution, the Parliament of Canada. Denise is also a noted speaker. She has presented at conferences These young people, representing the Canada-Ukraine Parliamen- and has addressed numerous groups from youth to elders in first tary Program, embody the highest ideals of achievement and nations and urban aboriginal communities. October 5, 2006 COMMONS DEBATES 3709

Statements by Members I congratulate Denise on a well-deserved award. She truly is a To Canadians' dismay, the Prime Minister's idea of fat includes: champion of mental health. foreign policy outreach and consultations with civil society and academic institutions; public diplomacy initiatives and cultural *** exchanges; diplomatic missions abroad; and unbelievably, youth ● (1410) international internships which prepare qualified staff with interna- tional exposure for future employment with Foreign Affairs and PROPOSED PICKERING AIRPORT CIDA as well as countless Canadian NGOs and international Mr. Mark Holland (Ajax—Pickering, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the agencies. communities of north Pickering have been besieged by Transport Canada since the 1970s. The bureaucrats have simply refused to give The government is suffering severe myopia. These cuts will up their efforts to develop an unneeded white elephant airport in my reduce non-profit's ability to deliver valued programs, impact riding. The only thing standing in their way is my constituents who negatively on diplomatic and cultural relations around the globe have loudly said no. and restrict the availability of Canadian personnel with essential international exposure. The current government is standing back while the bureaucrats systematically depopulate north Pickering, erasing gains made by the Mr. Prime Minister, it is never too late to admit that one is wrong previous government. As a landlord it deliberately allows homes to and reverse a bad decision. fall into disrepair so it can evict tenants, board up homes and then demolish them. ***

The Ontario Housing Tribunal has strongly condemned the OKTOBERFEST atrociously negligent practices of Transport Canada and has ruled in favour of the evicted tenants. This government, however, has not Hon. Karen Redman (Kitchener Centre, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, accepted these rulings. It is dragging my constituents back to court in this coming weekend Kitchener invites the world to share in the costly appeals. great German tradition of Oktoberfest. The nine day festival is the largest Bavarian celebration in North America and boasts Canada's I tell the government to call off its attack on our community, rein greatest Thanksgiving Day parade. in the bureaucrats, properly manage these lands and say no to another Mirabel in north Pickering. The 38th annual Kitchener-Waterloo Oktoberfest celebrates our *** local Canadian German heritage with over 20 Festhallen and 45 cultural and family events. Through the gaiety of this Spirit of LIBERAL PARTY OF CANADA Gemuetlichkeit, the local economy is stimulated and over 70 Mr. Joe Preston (Elgin—Middlesex—London, CPC): Mr. charities and not for profit organizations raise funds to benefit the Speaker, apparently the Liberals are so ashamed of their party's residents. debt that they are avoiding calls and not returning emails from Liberal International. This blatant attempt to avoid communication is Kitchener is firmly rooted in its German heritage. Oktoberfest is shocking, given that the Liberal Party of Canada is a founding an opportunity to commemorate the traditions and culture of our member. nation's three million German Canadians. Yesterday the secretary general of Liberal International, Jasper I would also like to congratulate the hundreds of volunteers who Veen, sent an email to the Liberal Party president reminding him of commit their time and energy to the success of Oktoberfest. the $25,000 owed. What is interesting to note is that although the largest political party in Liberal International is the Liberal Party of Kitchener is the place to be for the next two weeks. I invite all Canada, it is one of the smallest financial contributors, as compared Canadians to don their lederhosen and head to Oktoberfest. to the member parties from sub-Saharan Africa. *** It is shameful. The Liberals are piggy-backing off the poor nations of Africa, while continuing to rack up debt. [Translation]

Perhaps this just shows how much the Liberals care about their SAVOURA GREENHOUSES values when they cannot even support an organization designed to do just that. Mr. Guy André (Berthier—Maskinongé, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I would like to bring to the attention of the House a very important *** economic development project for the regional municipality of Maskinongé, a project I have worked hard on since being elected. FOREIGN AFFAIRS Ms. Alexa McDonough (Halifax, NDP): Mr. Speaker, the I am referring to the Savoura greenhouses in Saint-Étienne des Conservative government has announced what it calls “fat trimming” Grès. This project is an example of sustainable development as it from our foreign affairs capacities and our international development will utilize the biogas generated by a landfill site, reduce greenhouse capabilities. gas emissions and create about 100 jobs in our region. 3710 COMMONS DEBATES October 5, 2006

Oral Questions I am asking the federal government to immediately pay its $4 Canadians cherish freedom of religion, freedom of speech and million contribution, which was already committed by Treasury individual human rights and have a profound respect for the rights of Board in February 2005. The promoters, the municipality of Saint- minorities. Étienne des Grès, the regional municipality of Maskinongé and all the economic stakeholders await a favourable reply shortly. The federal government must announce a favourable decision on this We are a country that knows freedom from fear. We are a country project as soon as possible. of social harmony that reflects our deepest shared values as Canadians, but now the Prime Minister is planning legislation that *** puts our Charter of Rights and Freedoms under assault. Why is the ● (1415) government contemplating yet another attack on individual rights for [English] some misguided political gain? Why is he playing so carelessly with the genius that is our wonderful country? AMISH SCHOOL SHOOTINGS Hon. Keith Martin (Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, Lib.): Mr. Mr. Jason Kenney (Parliamentary Secretary to the Prime Speaker, our deepest sympathies and prayers go out to the Amish Minister, CPC): Mr. Speaker, I have no idea what the Leader of the community of Nickel Mines, Pennsylvania. It is impossible to Opposition is referring to. This government does not have and would fathom how a person of such cowardice could line up little girls and not have plans to introduce legislation that contravenes the charter of shoot them in the head, all the more appalling given how gentle the rights. This government stands for and with the protection of Amish are. Their resilience and spirit of forgiveness stand in stark minority rights in all cases. contrast to the grotesque brutality that has been inflicted upon them. Tragically many of their little girls are still hospital. They do not have medical insurance because the Amish response to a tragedy is I wish the Liberal Party would stop fearmongering and start for all to get together and bind together as one. These medical costs focusing on issues that are of concern to Canadians rather than will be in the millions and will overwhelm their resources. baseless speculation. I urge everyone who wishes to help to contact the Mennonite Central Committee website at www.mcc.org or call 1-888-622-6337. This government will always stand to protect basic rights. Heaven knows they need our help during their time of greatest need. *** Hon. Bill Graham (Leader of the Opposition, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, under this new government, values like equity and fairness FEDERAL ACCOUNTABILITY ACT are falling faster than the autumn leaves in our country. Mr. Ron Cannan (Kelowna—Lake Country, CPC): Mr. Speaker, today is day 106 of the Liberal Senate's foot-dragging and filibuster on the toughest anti-corruption law in Canadian Gay and lesbian Canadians are fearful of their future. That is new. history, the federal accountability act. Quebeckers are told by a government adviser that their moral standards are corrupting the rest of Canada. That is new. Our charter After the House of Commons passed the accountability act in 72 is undermined and the program that helped visible minorities fight days, the Liberal Senate clearly is trying to delay this bill from for their legal rights is history. That is new to all of us. coming into law. As a matter of fact, this week alone the Senate committee continued with its stalling tactics by holding only a few hours of hearings, in fact so few hearings that Liberal Senator Poulin As for women, would the Prime Minister explain to the House has almost completed her full time law degree while still sitting in why his new government has dropped equality of women from the the Senate. It is unreal. mandate of Status of Women Canada? Canadians want to know who is secretly giving the Liberal Senate its marching orders. Is it one of the Liberal leadership candidates? Mr. Jason Kenney (Parliamentary Secretary to the Prime Nobody knows. Minister, CPC): Again, Mr. Speaker, this is all just ridiculous hyperbole from the Leader of the Opposition. If the Liberals wish to regain any credibility in the eyes of Canadians, they should stop delaying the accountability act and pass the toughest anti-corruption law in Canadian history now. What we have with respect to the program at the Status of Women is an extremely effective minister in the Minister of Canadian Heritage, whom we are proud of for her great work. ORAL QUESTIONS [English] She has, among other things, added to the mandate of the Status of Women program, supporting the full participation of women in JUSTICE Canada's economic, social and cultural life. I want to know why the Hon. Bill Graham (Leader of the Opposition, Lib.): Mr. Liberals oppose that inclusion in the mandate of the Status of Speaker, Canada is a model for the world precisely because Women program. October 5, 2006 COMMONS DEBATES 3711

Oral Questions ● (1420) NATIONAL DEFENCE [Translation] Mr. Gilles Duceppe (Laurier—Sainte-Marie, BQ): Mr. Speak- Hon. Bill Graham (Leader of the Opposition, Lib.): Mr. er, while the government is making its cuts, at the expense of the Speaker, there is no opposition coming from us; this was already in most disadvantaged members of society, it is letting hundreds of place under our government. millions of dollars go to the Americans under a botched airplane purchase contract. The government’s haste in embarking on talks What the Prime Minister's actions are telling us is that equality with the American company Boeing, without even making sure that and justice do not matter much to this so-called new government. this sale met the American government’s security requirements, Discrimination against gays and lesbians, elimination of the might result in additional costs of several hundred million dollars. objective of equality for women. This so-called new government is attacking the Charter, ignoring the courts and abolishing the program How does the Prime Minister explain this shameless waste of that helps minorities fight for their rights. public funds? Mr. Jason Kenney (Parliamentary Secretary to the Prime Has this Prime Minister's flat out decided to abandon the gays and Minister, CPC): Mr. Speaker, I thank the leader of the Bloc lesbians, women, francophones outside Quebec and every visible Québécois for his question. Unfortunately, he is mistaken, because minority, or is he, on top of everything else, giving up on the whole the government will act effectively and speedily in purchasing idea of what our wonderful Canada is all about? equipment for our soldiers, for our military, including planes. Mr. Jason Kenney (Parliamentary Secretary to the Prime Minister, CPC): Mr. Speaker, I think that, in the last election, Until we have come to an agreement that is acceptable in terms of Canadians have made it very clear that they have had enough of the industrial and regional economic benefits, we will not be signing any Liberal Party, which thinks that it has a monopoly on Canadian contract for the purchases of military equipment that are planned. virtues and values. Mr. Gilles Duceppe (Laurier—Sainte-Marie, BQ): Mr. Speak- Like all Canadians, we in the Conservative Party share our er, can the Prime Minister deny that acting speedily, as the Canadian values. We will always defend our Canadian values. Parliamentary Secretary to the Prime Minister has said, and failing to check all of the details and the American laws properly, could end Hon. Lucienne Robillard (Westmount—Ville-Marie, Lib.): Mr. up costing us $800 million, when he is cutting $1 billion at the Speaker, the Prime Minister can try to keep his agenda hidden, but expense of the most disadvantaged people? While that may be acting the Minister of Justice and other members of his caucus have speedily, it is above all acting irresponsibly. betrayed him and shown their true colours. After it loses the vote on same-sex marriage, the government plans to table a radical bill Can he deny this information? legalizing discrimination against the gay and lesbian community. ● (1425) How dare the Prime Minister impose his right-wing values on Mr. Jason Kenney (Parliamentary Secretary to the Prime Canadians? Minister, CPC): Yes, I can deny it, and I do deny it. Mr. Jason Kenney (Parliamentary Secretary to the Prime Mr. Claude Bachand (Saint-Jean, BQ): Mr. Speaker, on June 6, Minister, CPC): Mr. Speaker, I would suggest that the hon. member the Prime Minister and the Minister of National Defence promised opposite do a little research. The only government in Canada that us, virtually with hand on heart, that when a decision was finalized ever adopted such legislation was Ontario's Liberal government. by the government for the purchase of planes and helicopters for the Hon. Lucienne Robillard (Westmount—Ville-Marie, Lib.): Mr. armed forces there would in fact be economic benefits and a boost Speaker, during the last election campaign, the Prime Minister for industry in Canada. managed to muzzle his candidates. Now that his minority government is moving from talk to action, we finally get to see How can the Prime Minister and the Minister of National Defence, the hidden side of his right-wing agenda: promoting intolerance, today, justify the deadlock we find ourselves in, because of the curtailing minority rights, and refusing to fight for women's equality. contract negotiated with Boeing, other than by the fact that they have been had like amateurs? Why did the Prime Minister lie to Canadians during the last election campaign? Why does he want to do away with Canadians' [English] rights? Hon. Gordon O'Connor (Minister of National Defence, CPC): Mr. Jason Kenney (Parliamentary Secretary to the Prime Mr. Speaker, I am unaware of the member's allegation that there is an Minister, CPC): Mr. Speaker, the Liberals are always talking about impasse. There is no impasse whatsoever. Negotiations are ongoing Canadians' rights and Canadian values. right now with Boeing. We expect that Boeing will provide the full requirement of benefits, and all the military purchases of the future I would like to know where the Liberals were when Canadians of will benefit Canadians, not only the military. Chinese origin were demanding the government apologize for the [Translation] unjust head tax imposed on the Chinese. For thirteen years, the Liberals refused to face Canadians of Chinese origin, but we acted Mr. Claude Bachand (Saint-Jean, BQ): Mr. Speaker, it is not on this issue because our government respects the rights of complicated, if we do not comply with the Americans’ security Canadians. requirements, there will be no economic benefits. 3712 COMMONS DEBATES October 5, 2006

Oral Questions And because there will be no economic benefits and there is no JUSTICE longer any guarantee of those benefits, and it will cost hundreds of Hon. Belinda Stronach (Newmarket—Aurora, Lib.): Mr. millions of dollars more as a dead loss, why does the government not Speaker, the Conservative minority government does not have a immediately stop what it is doing and go back to a bidding process mandate to reduce the freedoms that are already guaranteed to that is transparent and fair and, most importantly, that will benefit the Canadians under the Charter of Rights and that have been confirmed people who are paying, the taxpayers? by the courts. Despite the lack of a mandate for this, the justice [English] minister continues to cater to his socially conservative base and threatens to eliminate equal marriage. Hon. Gordon O'Connor (Minister of National Defence, CPC): Mr. Speaker, I reject the premise of the member's question. We are When will the Minister of Justice, not the parliamentary secretary, going in a transparent process. There will be benefits to Canadians, assure the House that he will not introduce legislation that in any to Canadian industry and to the military. This is the equipment that way legalizes discrimination? the armed forces needs. ● (1430) *** Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of NATIONAL SECURITY Canada, CPC): Mr. Speaker, I can assure the House that I will not introduce any legislation that legalizes discrimination. Mr. Joe Comartin (Windsor—Tecumseh, NDP): Mr. Speaker, today there were disturbing new revelations that show the extent to Hon. Belinda Stronach (Newmarket—Aurora, Lib.): Mr. which the FBI investigates Canadian citizens right here in Canada, Speaker, the Prime Minister has made it clear that he wants to largely without the knowledge or permission of Canada's govern- reopen the debate about equal marriage, a debate that we have ment. The FBI operates its largest foreign operation in Canada. already had in this House. More recently, the justice minister has Under the previous Liberal government, the FBI opened two field indicated that he already has a fallback plan for when this attempt offices. fails.

Does the Conservative government believe it is okay to let a When will the Prime Minister stop playing politics with foreign agency come across our border, onto our soil, and investigate Canadians' equal rights, stop catering to his socially conservative our citizens without our permission? Is the government sanctioning base and start governing for the majority of Canadians? that? Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Hon. Stockwell Day (Minister of Public Safety, CPC): Mr. Canada, CPC): Mr. Speaker, during the election, the Prime Minister Speaker, our security forces have agreements with our allies and with and this government indicated that there would be a free vote on that other nations in terms of information sharing. I can assure the House issue and there would be a motion on that issue. That motion will be that these teams work together back and forth. I can also assure all brought forward. Beyond that, anything else is speculation. Canadians that anything done on Canadian soil related to information sharing is done according to and within the guidelines *** of our laws. STATUS OF WOMEN Mr. Joe Comartin (Windsor—Tecumseh, NDP): Mr. Speaker, Hon. Maria Minna (Beaches—East York, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, according to the FBI's own information, due to the high volume of the minority Conservative government is anti-women. It has cut off investigations it was conducting on Canadians, it gave clearance to at the knees all organizations working for women's equality in its Buffalo office for routine investigations up to 50 miles within Canada. The criteria has been changed so that no organization Canadian territory. That is all the way up into Toronto. An fighting for women's equality will receive funding. The Conserva- astonishing one-third of those agents came across the border without tives have put tape over women's mouths to shut them up. This is not Canada's permission and not according to any agreements. They did democracy. it illegally. When will the minister stop attacking women and give them back What is the government going to do about it? their voice? Hon. Stockwell Day (Minister of Public Safety, CPC): Mr. Hon. Bev Oda (Minister of Canadian Heritage and Status of Speaker, as I have indicated, our teams of officers from various Women, CPC): Mr. Speaker, unlike the previous Liberal govern- security agencies work with our allies and sometimes it is with the U. ment that only talked about women's equality and did nothing for a S. We have teams that are designated to go back and forth across the decade, unlike the previous government that received multiple border. Sometimes it is farther than 50 miles or 50 kilometres, reports and recommendations and did nothing, and unlike the whatever the distance the member just mentioned from the, previous government that in fact cut funding for women's programs apparently, high quality information that he is receiving from the three times over the last decade, this new Conservative government upper echelons of the FBI. will make a real difference in the lives of Canadian women. I can assure the House that everything that is done on Canadian Hon. Maria Minna (Beaches—East York, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, soil relating to security and safety investigations is done in that minister believes women should be satisfied with the status quo accordance with our laws. and to shut up about equality. October 5, 2006 COMMONS DEBATES 3713

Oral Questions Last week the government cut the budget of Status of Women by Hon. Josée Verner (Minister of International Cooperation and almost 40%. This week it voted against the Liberal motion Minister for la Francophonie and Official Languages, CPC): Mr. supporting women's equality. This morning the minister failed to Speaker, I did not invite the Canadian Curling Association to visit explain why equality was removed from the eligibility requirements Quebec City. The hon. member is mistaken and she is making of the women's program. statements that are totally false.

Will the minister not admit that she has failed Canadian women What I said is that it was up to the Canadian Curling Association and that she does not believe in them at all? It is absolutely shameful to make the decision, but that the International Ice Hockey what she is doing. Federation does not find Bill 101 to be a constraint. In Quebec, Hon. Bev Oda (Minister of Canadian Heritage and Status of we have Bill 101 and we respect it. Women, CPC): Mr. Speaker, I would like to know what the hon. member opposite has against dealing with trafficking of women and *** victims of trafficking of women. I would like to know what the members opposite have against improving the CPP. I would like to GOVERNMENT PROGRAMS know what the party opposite has against more affordable housing. I Mrs. Maria Mourani (Ahuntsic, BQ): Mr. Speaker, yesterday also would like to know what they have against acting on aboriginal morning we were faced with another one of this government's matrimonial property rights. ideological decisions. This party does not hold boys' weekends to decide policy. The Minister of Canadian Heritage informed the representatives of *** women's groups that her department will no longer finance advocacy [Translation] activities. But advocacy is something tangible. SPORT How can the minister justify such a decision? It may be that she Mr. Luc Malo (Verchères—Les Patriotes, BQ): Mr. Speaker, approves of her government's ideological approach aimed at slowing the City of Quebec will not host the most important curling down progress toward equality for women by cutting their funding competition for women in 2008 because, according to the Canadian off. Curling Association, Quebec's language law could have an impact [English] on the event. Just imagine! According to Curling Canada, the stones do not glide as well in French. This is ridiculous. Hon. Bev Oda (Minister of Canadian Heritage and Status of Women, CPC): Mr. Speaker, as this House has been told, we try to What does the minister responsible for Sport Canada intend to do get value for Canadian taxpayer dollars. We believe that rather than to remind Curling Canada that the game is played in many languages lobbying and advocacy, we know what the problems are. We believe around the world and that Quebeckers are very insulted by its that groups that help women in their communities and in their daily attitude? lives will result in positive changes for women. Hon. Michael Chong (President of the Queen's Privy Council for Canada, Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs and Minister *** for Sport, CPC): Mr. Speaker, the Government of Canada is [Translation] committed to promoting both official languages in the Canadian sport structure. JUSTICE Sport Canada requires national sport organizations, including the Mr. Réal Ménard (Hochelaga, BQ): Mr. Speaker, with respect to Canadian Curling Association, to recognize the equality of French the government's intention to legalize discrimination against and English in our country. homosexuals, the Prime Minister has maintained that this was pure speculation. However, as recently as Tuesday, his Minister of Justice Thanks to this long-standing commitment by the government and openly stated his intention to introduce legislation to that effect. its partners, athletes have access to all the services that they need in both official languages. Yesterday, the hon. member for Wild Rose confirmed to the media ● (1435) that the minister had indeed taken steps in that direction, adding that Ms. Christiane Gagnon (Québec, BQ): Mr. Speaker, faced with it was appropriate to do so. Curling Canada's attitude, the Minister for la Francophonie and Official Languages, who is responsible for the Quebec region, could How can the Prime Minister explain that members of his caucus not come up with anything better than to invite that organization to and his cabinet contradict him on this issue and show enthusiasm for visit Quebec City. We expect much more concrete measures on the such a plan? That is shameful. part of the minister. [English] What is she waiting for to take concrete action towards Curling Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada by strongly condemning its narrow and biased vision, not Canada, CPC): Mr. Speaker, I would like to see where, in fact, I only towards Quebec City, but the whole province? What is she confirmed that any such legislation was coming forward. That is waiting for to condemn Curling Canada for the contempt displayed speculation on the part of the member and anyone else making that towards Quebec City? statement. 3714 COMMONS DEBATES October 5, 2006

Oral Questions CITIZENSHIP AND IMMIGRATION Will the Minister of Public Works acknowledge his responsibility Hon. Andrew Telegdi (Kitchener—Waterloo, Lib.): Mr. Speak- in this matter, or is he too busy trying to get himself elected in er, Joe Taylor, the son of a second world war Canadian soldier, was Repentigny? born in England in 1945. He and his mother became Canadian [English] citizens when they landed in Halifax in 1946. When the marriage failed, he and his mother returned to England. Hon. Gordon O'Connor (Minister of National Defence, CPC): When Mr. Taylor moved back to Canada several years ago, he was Mr. Speaker, I do not know where the member opposite gets his denied citizenship rights because he was born out of wedlock. outrageous numbers. In fact, the number exceeds the total value of all the contracts we have even talked about. Does the minister really believe it is justifiable in this day and age to discriminate against children born out of wedlock? This is a ridiculous allegation. We are getting the aircraft and we Hon. Monte Solberg (Minister of Citizenship and Immigra- will be getting the ships and the trucks that the military needs. tion, CPC): Mr. Speaker, I have to say that I am very sympathetic, Citizens of Canada will benefit by this. There will be industrial like all parliamentarians, to people who find themselves in situations benefits and we will get it at the world price. that the act did not anticipate and we want to sort those out. [Translation] However, when there is a situation where there is a court decision that has implications for hundreds of statutes, dozens of departments Mr. Marcel Proulx (Hull—Aylmer, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, this and could cost tens of billions of dollars, we have a duty to appeal. government must answer for its actions. Hon. Andrew Telegdi (Kitchener—Waterloo, Lib.): Rubbish, What other useful programs must this government cut in order to Mr. Speaker. clean up the mess created by the Minister of Public Works? On September 1, Federal Court Justice Martineau ruled sections of Furthermore, why is the Minister of Public Works not in this House the Citizenship Act unconstitutional and ordered the minister to to tell us about his management practices? restore Mr. Taylor's citizenship. The minister is appealing the decision. Will the Prime Minister finally call a by-election in Repentigny? Will the Prime Minister finally order Senator Fortier to get himself Defending one's charter rights is an expensive process. Mr. Taylor elected as soon as possible, so that he can come here and account for does not have the financial resources to fight the government. Has his poor management of public money? the government eliminated the court challenges program to deny people like Mr. Taylor their charter rights? [English] We, as Liberals, had a court challenges program. Mr. James Moore (Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Public Works and Government Services and Minister for the ● (1440) Pacific Gateway and the Vancouver-Whistler Olympics, CPC): Hon. Monte Solberg (Minister of Citizenship and Immigra- Mr. Speaker, in file after file, what we are doing for Canadian tion, CPC): Mr. Speaker, as Liberals, they had 13 years to sort out taxpayers is what we promised to do in the election campaign. We the problem and they did absolutely nothing. That is a fact. are getting value for Canadian taxpayer dollars. That is what Canadians sent us here to do. That is what we will do for Canadian As I explained to the member, we are trying to find ways to deal taxpayers, we will get value. with this situation. Last year, in the last Parliament as an opposition party, we paved the way for war brides to become Canadian citizens. When the next election campaign comes, Canadians will reward a We are working to that end but we cannot stand idle when court government that keeps its word and gets value. It will not matter who decisions threaten dozens of statutes and could cost the government is leading that party, if it is Bob recession Rae or the honourable billions of dollars. In a case like that, it is our duty to stand up for the academic from Massachusetts. Government of Canada and the people of Canada. *** *** [Translation] AFGHANISTAN PUBLIC WORKS AND GOVERNMENT SERVICES Mr. Laurie Hawn (Edmonton Centre, CPC): Mr. Speaker, two Mr. Marcel Proulx (Hull—Aylmer, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the weeks ago Canada had the honour of welcoming the president of Minister of Public Works blundered badly. He was in such a hurry to Afghanistan. He requested Canada's assistance in helping to have his new military toys that, when purchasing the C-17s and the eradicate polio from Afghanistan. Chinook helicopters, for the modest sum of $9 billion, he used the wrong procurement process. By purchasing country to country, Could the Minister of International Cooperation please tell us if instead of commercially, he managed to hand over nearly $1 billion there are any new initiatives as a result of her discussions with in commission to his Republican friends in Washington. President Karzai? October 5, 2006 COMMONS DEBATES 3715

Oral Questions [Translation] The former premier of Ontario refutes the amounts the minister Hon. Josée Verner (Minister of International Cooperation and claims. He also confirms the so-called work Mr. Andre was hired to Minister for la Francophonie and Official Languages, CPC): Mr. do is already completed. Mr. Peterson said today, “All it needs is for Speaker, I thank my colleague for his excellent question. the political masters to sign on. My work is all done”.

In fact, I announced just today our contribution of $5 million to a Why did the minister give Harvie Andre a lucrative contract to do project aimed at immunizing 7 million young Afghan children nothing? against polio. Specifically, these funds will be allocated to the World Health Mr. Rod Bruinooge (Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister Organization and UNICEF for the Global Polio Eradication of Indian Affairs and Northern Development and Federal Initiative. That program will target the provinces of Kandahar and Interlocutor for Métis and Non-Status Indians, CPC): Mr. Helmand in particular. This is our response to President Karzai's Speaker, Dr. Andre is a very well known Canadian with considerable appeal during his visit. experience. He is also a former parliamentarian. Above that, he is working on behalf of the Government of Canada for only $50,000. [English] This is dramatically less than what was paid to the previous Ms. Dawn Black (New Westminster—Coquitlam, NDP): Mr. negotiator, who unfortunately did not accomplish his task. This Speaker, today former commander Colonel Mike Capstick cites amounts to 100% of the value at 5% of the cost. some of the major problems with the mission in Afghanistan. He cites the blunder of the wrong number of soldiers being sent, Mr. Mark Holland (Ajax—Pickering, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, he is warlords and drug criminals in the Afghan government and, most a well known Conservative who is paid to do no work. interesting, humanitarian aid that never arrives. If the government could admit it only spends $1 on aid for every In the days of Mulroney, Harvie Andre used to say that one made $9 on combat, why can it not admit that aid is not getting through more money by knowing Harvie Andre than by being Harvie Andre. because this is the wrong mission? It is an unbalanced mission. The minister is sure trying to turn that around. I guess he feels he owes him one. It was Harvie Andre who got the minister a job with ● (1445) the Indian Claims Commission in 1992. Hon. Gordon O'Connor (Minister of National Defence, CPC): Mr. Speaker, a number of times in the House the Prime Minister, the The minister needs to stop ducking and weaving and produce this Minister of Foreign Affairs and I have confirmed the value of our contract. Let us see it. Let the facts show that he gave a man who mission in Afghanistan. We are in Afghanistan because the owed him big, his campaign co-chair and riding president's father-in- government of Afghanistan asked us to be there. If we are not there law, a man who got him a job in 1992, a lucrative contact to do and NATO is not there, the Taliban will return and there will a absolutely nothing. murderous regime in Afghanistan. I do not think the NDP wants that in Afghanistan. Mr. Rod Bruinooge (Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister Ms. Dawn Black (New Westminster—Coquitlam, NDP): Mr. of Indian Affairs and Northern Development and Federal Speaker, the minister has a reputation for strong and blunt answers. I Interlocutor for Métis and Non-Status Indians, CPC): Mr. wish, just once, he would get up in the House and not give all the Speaker, Mr. Andre is a very well known Canadian with a wealth empty rhetoric. of experience. In fact, he is working until the end of this year for $50,000. I know this might be hard for members opposite to believe, Now that the U.S. Republicans, no less than the Senate majority as it does seem like a very conservative amount, but it is the truth. leader Bill Frist, are asking for peace talks in Afghanistan, is the Again, this is something of which we are very proud. minister finally ready to listen? Will the government step up to the plate and help kick-start peace talks in Afghanistan? Mr. Brent St. Denis (Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, Hon. Gordon O'Connor (Minister of National Defence, CPC): Lib.): Mr. Speaker, in January the government inherited the best Mr. Speaker, we are in Afghanistan as part of NATO. We have set of books ever, but it has still decided to cut important programs. certain responsibilities within Afghanistan, particularly the Kandahar Many of those cuts affect the most vulnerable in Canada. province. It is not our function to become the government of Afghanistan. We do not negotiate on the part of Afghanistan. It is up to the government to make any arrangements. With a $13 billion surplus, could the minister explain why the government feels the need to pick on our aboriginal communities by *** refusing to honour the signed Kelowna accord and by freezing funding for capital, operations and band elections for Ontario first ABORIGINAL AFFAIRS nations? Mr. Mark Holland (Ajax—Pickering, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development will not Mr. Rod Bruinooge (Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister answer about the patronage contract for Conservative crony Harvie of Indian Affairs and Northern Development and Federal Andre. Instead, he insults the previous negotiator and steamrolls the Interlocutor for Métis and Non-Status Indians, CPC): Mr. truth. Speaker, the Government of Canada does support band elections. 3716 COMMONS DEBATES October 5, 2006

Oral Questions This amount is something that previously was under a different reason, abandon his ideological approach and remember that he is budget umbrella. Now it is being folded into the entire budget for the from Quebec and that he already voted for a similar bill as a Ontario region. This move is seen by the community as important. member? Will he look after the workers rather than his limousine? ● (1450) Hon. Jean-Pierre Blackburn (Minister of Labour and Minister Mr. Brent St. Denis (Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, of the Economic Development Agency of Canada for the Regions Lib.): Mr. Speaker, that is not very satisfactory. It seems that the of Quebec, CPC): Mr. Speaker, we have statistics that contradict the meanspirited minority Conservative government wants to make member's claims. In provinces where there is anti-scab legislation, Ontario's first nations pay for the tragic difficulties in the northern conflicts even last longer. Ontario community of Kashechewan. Will the government do the right thing and solve the I want to point out that we had a vote in this House on the law. It Kashechewan problem out of the big financial surplus it inherited was reviewed in 1999 and, by consensus, the members decided that and not on the backs of Ontario first nations, which badly need the best balance could be achieved by establishing a law whereby the funding for capital, operations and band elections? use of replacement workers would not serve to undermine the Mr. Rod Bruinooge (Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister representation of unions, which is reflected in the law. of Indian Affairs and Northern Development and Federal Interlocutor for Métis and Non-Status Indians, CPC): Mr. *** Speaker, clearly, the people of Kashechewan have faced considerable hardship. After we came into government, we took immediate [English] action. Since the spring, there has been considerable progress. As of August, all the residents have returned to Kashechewan, and the PORTS AND HARBOURS water now meets the Ontario provincial standards. It should be said that the previous Liberal government left the Mr. Paul Zed (Saint John, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, again I rise about people of Kashechewan without a dime or a plan. the Saint John harbour cleanup. Yesterday I was pleased to join Premier Shawn Graham when he signed an agreement for this *** project in Saint John for $26.6 million. [Translation] LABOUR The Liberal premier was able to do in one day what the Prime Minister has been unwilling to do in nine months. If the Liberal Mrs. Carole Lavallée (Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, BQ): Mr. Premier of New Brunswick can commit to Saint John harbour Speaker, union representatives from the Outaouais who support the cleanup on his first day as premier, how long will it take the Prime anti-scab bill introduced by the Bloc Québécois have been trying for Minister to live up to his commitment and to fund this crucial project several days to meet with the Minister of Transport, Infrastructure for our community? and Communities. He refuses to meet with them. Why is the Minister of Transport, Infrastructure and Communities, Hon. Lawrence Cannon (Minister of Transport, Infrastruc- who is also the member for the Outaouais, refusing to meet with ture and Communities, CPC): Mr. Speaker, I am happy that my these workers? Why does he refuse to even listen to the sensible hon. colleague has stood up for this issue. It is the first time he has arguments that these workers would like to make in support of this done that. bill? Hon. Jean-Pierre Blackburn (Minister of Labour and Minister This government made a joint $8.5 million commitment as the of the Economic Development Agency of Canada for the Regions first step to clean up the Saint John harbour, and that was done under of Quebec, CPC): Mr. Speaker, everyone knows that in Canada only a Conservative provincial government. two provinces out of 10 have introduced anti-scab legislation: Quebec, in 1977, and British Colombia, in 1993. *** Given that this is a shared responsibility, why do the Bloc ● (1455) Québécois opposition members want to force the other provinces to adopt legislation they do not want? PAYDAY LOAN INDUSTRY Mrs. Carole Lavallée (Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, BQ): Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Labour and Minister of the Economic Mr. Peter Goldring (Edmonton East, CPC): Mr. Speaker, for Development Agency of Canada for the Regions of Quebec, who is years many provinces called upon the federal government to suspend from Quebec, should know that since there are no anti-scab the application of the Criminal Code section on interest rates for provisions in the Canada Labour Code, conflicts governed by that payday loans. This would allow them to regulate the industry and code last almost twice as long as those governed by the Quebec better protect consumers throughout Canada. labour code. Will the Minister of Labour and Minister of the Economic Could the justice minister please let us know when he plans to Development Agency of Canada for the Regions of Quebec listen to address this very important issue? October 5, 2006 COMMONS DEBATES 3717

Oral Questions Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of CANADIAN HERITAGE Canada, CPC): Mr. Speaker, Canada's new government, in contrast to the previous Liberal government, is working cooperatively with Hon. Anita Neville (Winnipeg South Centre, Lib.): Mr. our provincial partners. That is why tomorrow we will introduce a Speaker, the proposed Canadian museum for human rights will be bill on payday loans, which will address the concerns from provinces a national landmark for the city of Winnipeg, a global meeting place that wish to regulate the industry to better protect consumers. for learning, reflection, dialogue and debate on the issue of human rights. I look forward to support from all parties in the House on this important bill, so we can work together with the provinces. The government has had the file for months now, yet the *** supporters of the museum have heard nothing on whether they will receive sustainable funding. CANADIAN WHEAT BOARD Mr. Alex Atamanenko (British Columbia Southern Interior, Will the Prime Minister guarantee that the Canadian museum for NDP): Mr. Speaker, the government has clearly stated its intention to human rights will receive its requested operating funds or, once cut out the Wheat Board's legs from under it. It has appointed a again, is human rights not a priority for the government? minister who opposes the mandate of the Wheat Board and has done everything in his power to systematically destroy this Canadian Hon. Bev Oda (Minister of Canadian Heritage and Status of institution, with sham round tables, closed door meetings and Women, CPC): Mr. Speaker, this government understands the whisper campaigns. difference between a building and human rights. I have a simple question for the Minister of Agriculture and Agri- Food and Minister for the Canadian Wheat Board. Will he allow, as We have been working very diligently with the Asper family. We the law states, the 85,000 farmers who use the Wheat Board a vote understand that the plans are in place. We are reviewing those plans. on its future, yes or no? We have discussed viable options for consideration by the Asper family. In fact, I will be meeting with representatives of that group Hon. Chuck Strahl (Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food later this week. and Minister for the Canadian Wheat Board, CPC): Mr. Speaker, what we have done is taken steps to follow through on our campaign promise. Campaign promises are something the Liberals are not used *** to. We said we were moving to marketing choice. We said we would appoint a task force to give us some of the details on the marketing FOREIGN AFFAIRS choice.

However, I always find it a little passing strange when my critic Mr. Rick Norlock (Northumberland—Quinte West, CPC): Mr. from the NDP or my critic from the Liberals, who do not have to live Speaker, this past Tuesday North Korea announced its intention to under the Wheat Board, tell the rest of Canada how they have to conduct a nuclear test in the future. This announcement has market their products. provoked a strong reaction by the international community as it is a threat to regional peace and stability. Mr. Alex Atamanenko (British Columbia Southern Interior, NDP): Mr. Speaker, that reminds us of the shameful softwood lumber agreement. I asked a very simple question. Does he intend to What is Canada doing to respond to this threat? allow the 85,000 farmers who use the Wheat Board a democratic vote? Hon. Peter MacKay (Minister of Foreign Affairs and Minister of the Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency, CPC): Mr. There should be no more talk about choice. The only choice is Speaker, North Korea, as we know, has made recent statements whether the government will follow the law or break the law, extend and engaged in an attempt to conduct a nuclear test in the future. It is the rights of farmers or deny them, support democracy or suffocate seen as very provocative. It undermines regional peace and stability. it. Which is it? Will farmers get a say, yes or no? It is unacceptable to Canada, as it is to the entire international Hon. Chuck Strahl (Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food community. and Minister for the Canadian Wheat Board, CPC): Mr. Speaker, so far we have appointed a task force. That task force is to report to Canada has repeatedly urged North Korea to dismantle its nuclear me in about three or four weeks. It is going to give some of the weapons program and refrain from proliferation, or risk further details about what a corporate structure of a voluntary wheat board international isolation and condemnation. might look like.

We are determined to have a strong, voluntary wheat board and a The government remains in close contact with our allies on this marketing choice. That is all we have done. There have been no issue. We will raise our objections with North Korea every other proposals on the table. There has been discussion. Right now opportunity we get and we will, again, strongly urge North Korea there is nothing to even have a plebiscite about. to return to the six party talks. 3718 COMMONS DEBATES October 5, 2006

Speaker's Ruling ● (1500) Some hon. members: Hear, hear! LITERACY *** Hon. Ralph Goodale (Wascana, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, yesterday the Treasury Board president was deafening by his silence. BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE Hon. Ralph Goodale (Wascana, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, on the eve We have demonstrated beyond a shadow of a doubt, both on the of the break for Thanksgiving, I wonder if the House leader for the written record and on tape, that this minister has dismissed funding government could indicate the agenda he will be pursuing for the to address adult literacy as wasteful and not something the balance of today and tomorrow, as well as the first week after we are Government of Canada should help with after the fact. back from the Thanksgiving break. The Treasury Board president denied those remarks, but the hard I also wonder, because obviously the high interest in the House evidence clearly proves otherwise. and the very high degree of interest in the country, if the House Will he simply confess that he misspoke himself and reinstate $18 leader could give us some indication of when the government will million for those Canadians who need that help with their literacy bring forward its various proposals with respect to same sex skills? marriage. Hon. John Baird (President of the Treasury Board, CPC): Mr. Hon. Rob Nicholson (Leader of the Government in the House Speaker, with respect to the first point of the comment made by the of Commons and Minister for Democratic Reform, CPC): Mr. member for Wascana, I think it is a gross distortion of my comment. Speaker, today we will continue to debate an opposition motion. What the member opposite alleges that I said that appears in today's Globe and Mail and appeared in Hansard on Friday, in fact I never Tomorrow, we will complete debate on the amendment to Bill did say and Hansard will back that up. C-24, the softwood lumber agreement. Under a special order adopted Tuesday, there is an opportunity to sit into the weekend if needed to If he has a tape, I would certainly welcome him tabling it in this give members, particularly members of the New Democratic Party, House. If the member has a copy of the tape, he should table it. I the debating time they requested on such an important bill. have the quotes from the Globe and Mail that he just described. He should table that and we look forward to seeing it. Next week, the House will be adjourned to allow members to return to their ridings. *** [Translation] When the House resumes on October 16, we will debate Bill C-23, the Criminal Code; Bill S-2, hazardous materials; and Bill C-6, ACCESS TO INFORMATION aeronautics. Mr. Jean-Yves Laforest (Saint-Maurice—Champlain, BQ): Mr. Speaker, yesterday in committee, to our astonishment, witnesses On Tuesday I will call Bill C-24 again. Thursday will be an from the Treasury Board Secretariat stated that a minister who wants allotted day. to can obtain the identity of a person who submits an access to We will introduce the motion that the hon. member requested in information request. Last week's budget cuts showed us that this due course. government is ruthless toward those who oppose its authority. In addition to a list of reporters, now the government wants to have a [Translation] list of everyone who makes an access to information request. At the same time, I would like to wish everyone a happy We are wondering how far this will go and when it will stop. Thanksgiving weekend. [English] *** Hon. John Baird (President of the Treasury Board, CPC): Mr. Speaker, let me be very clear. When recent allegations surfaced in ● (1505) the media, I immediately contacted the Privacy Commissioner. I also [English] sent, and my deputy sent, to the public service the following note: PRIVILEGE —it is important that all employees, including Ministers and their exempt staff, are reminded of the rules and regulations surrounding the Access to Information COMMENTS MADE BY PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY TO THE PRIME and Privacy Acts. MINISTER—SPEAKER'S RULING The President of the Treasury has asked...that the name of an individual who has made a request under the Access to Information Act or the Privacy Act is considered The Speaker: I am now prepared to rule on the question of personal information and can only be disclosed in conformity with the Privacy Act. privilege raised by the hon. Leader of the Opposition concerning comments made by the hon. Parliamentary Secretary to the Prime *** Minister during question period on Thursday, September 28, 2006. PRESENCE IN GALLERY [Translation] The Speaker: I would like to draw to the attention of hon. members the presence in the gallery of Mr. Ferguson Jenkins, I would like to thank the hon. Leader of the Opposition for raising Ambassador of the Canadian Baseball Hall of Fame and a pioneering this matter as well as the hon. parliamentary secretary for his legend of Canadian sport. intervention. October 5, 2006 COMMONS DEBATES 3719

Points of Order [English] speech and the decision-making process that lie at the heart of our parliamentary system. During question period on September 28, the hon. member for Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine posed a question concerning the [English] government's response to the O'Connor report on the imprisonment and torture of Mr. Arar. But the exercise of that freedom of speech ought to be based on the underlying principle of respect to the House and to other In the preamble to the question, the hon. member noted that the members. Conduct should not cause a disruption to proceedings. previous Liberal government had initiated the O'Connor inquiry. She went on to ask the hon. Parliamentary Secretary to the Prime It would be an understatement to say that we have been plagued in Minister why the government did not extend an apology to Mr. Arar. recent weeks by what any observer would have to admit is an unusually noisy chamber, particularly during question period. Some In his response to the question, the hon. parliamentary secretary of the disorder is being triggered by questionable language or claimed: provocative statements. Mr. Speaker, how ironic that a representative of the Liberal Party should say they took the first step with respect to Mr. Arar. They did by taking actions which ended But much of it also appears to be generated by interruptions, up putting him in a Syrian jail. interjections or other demonstrations, including applause and Following question period, the hon. Leader of the Opposition rose standing ovations, actions that seem to be designed to drown out on a question of privilege to take issue with these comments. He or plainly disrupt those asking questions or those answering them. expressed concern that the remarks suggested that the Liberal But when the noise reaches levels where no one, not even the government had been involved in the events surrounding the Speaker, can hear what is being said, the House as a whole loses imprisonment of Mr. Arar and he requested that the hon. member some credibility. withdraw the remarks. So I appeal to all hon. members for cooperation. I will continue to The hon. parliamentary secretary defended his response to the try to give members wide latitude in expressing their points of view, question by quoting from Mr. Justice O'Connor's report. In but I ask for all members' assistance in ensuring that we can all hear conclusion, he asserted that this matter was not a question of the member who has been recognized and who has the floor. privilege but rather a point of debate. I was tempted to give this ruling at 2:15, but I thank hon. members I undertook to look at both members' statements and return to the for being patient and listening to it now. House with a ruling on the matter. As I have stated before in previous rulings, it is rare for the Chair *** to find a prima facie case of privilege when there appears to be a ● (1510) dispute as to facts. In order for there to be a prima facie case of privilege, I must find that the hon. parliamentary secretary's [Translation] comments impeded the hon. Leader of the Opposition in the POINTS OF ORDER performance of his parliamentary duties. I have examined the arguments offered by both the Leader of the DECORUM Opposition and the hon. Parliamentary Secretary to the Prime Mr. Michel Guimond (Montmorency—Charlevoix—Haute- Minister, as well as questions put by the hon. member for Notre- Côte-Nord, BQ): Mr. Speaker, Marleau and Montpetit, chapter 13, Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine and answers provided by the hon. defines what order and decorum means. I am quoting from page 503, parliamentary secretary in question period. which states:

Given the differing views of both hon. members, it is difficult for One of the basic principles of parliamentary procedure is that proceedings in the the Chair to regard the matter as anything other than debate. I am, House of Commons are conducted in terms of a free and civil discourse. In order that therefore, unable to find a basis for the charge of prima facie breach debate on matters of public policy be held in a civil manner, the House has adopted rules of order and decorum for the conduct of Members towards each other and of privilege. towards the institution as a whole. Members are to show respect for one another and [Translation] for different viewpoints; offensive or rude behaviour or language is not tolerated. Emotions are to be expressed in words rather than acted out; opinions are to be Despite this conclusion, the raising of this matter in circumstances expressed with civility and freely, without fear of punishment or reprisal. of high emotion on both sides affords the Chair an opportunity to address broader issues of decorum. While the leader of the official opposition was putting his first question, we on this side clearly saw the Minister of Agriculture and As I noted in a ruling given on October 1, 2003 and which can be the Minister of Immigration display inappropriate behaviour, literally found on pages 8040 and 8041 of the House of Commons Debates: putting their fingers in their mouths and pretending to be throwing As members of Parliament, we all deal regularly with differing interpretations of up. I am weighing my words carefully. various events or situations and differing views of documents laid before the House. Members can—and often do—disagree about the actual facts of the same situation. Mr. Speaker, that kind of gesture cannot be tolerated in this place Disagreements of this kind form the basis of our debates. Our rules are designed to permit—indeed to encourage—members to present differing views on a given issue. and we think that it is up to you to ensure that decorum is maintained This tolerance of different points of view is an essential feature of the freedom of in the House. 3720 COMMONS DEBATES October 5, 2006

Business of Supply In closing, I would ask that the two ministers involved offer The Speaker: The hon. member has clarified the facts in a way explanations and apologies, if they are indeed worthy of their that I am sure is satisfactory to all concerned. ministerial duties. One might also wonder if the people of Medicine Hat and Chilliwack—Fraser Canyon are proud of such totally The hon. member for Wascana has a point of order. unacceptable behaviour on the part of their respective representa- Hon. Ralph Goodale (Wascana, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, during the tives. course of this question period and others this week, there has been a I ask that both ministers apologize for making these inappropriate controversy about certain remarks made by the President of the gestures. Treasury Board, , which he persists in denying that he made. I have [English] pointed out on occasion that there is both a written record and a verbal record on tape of those remarks. I was invited during question Hon. Monte Solberg (Minister of Citizenship and Immigra- period to table that material. tion, CPC): Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the concern of my friend from across the way. Clearly, there are times in this place when sometimes With respect to the written record, I would simply refer to perhaps, and I admit, I get a little bit carried away, and sometimes I government news release number 2006-047, dated September 25, find some of the comments coming from the opposition a little bit 2006, which uses the words “wasteful”, “trimming fat” and not hard to take. “good value”, all in relation to the programs that we have referred to I will be very mindful of the reprimand that I have just received with respect to literacy. So, in the government's own official record from my friend across the way. with its news releases, the information is very clear. [Translation] Further, when the President of the Treasury Board was out Mr. Michel Guimond: Mr. Speaker, perhaps my level of English canvassing for loonies on the street corner earlier this week, his is not good enough, but I am always listening. I would like to know remarks were in fact recorded. I have them with me. I am certainly if the minister is apologizing for what he did. He gave us a prepared to table that recording of what he said, which perfectly justification of his behaviour, but my question is very clear: does the verifies what has been alleged here in question period. minister apologize for this inappropriate and disgraceful behaviour, which is a violation of the decorum in this House? That is my I would simply make two requests. First of all, I would like to get question. the tape recorder back when the Table is done with it, and secondly, The Speaker: This is truly a question, and oral question period is in the spirit of fair play, I hope the Parliamentary Secretary to the now over. Prime Minister would table his BlackBerry, from which he quotes repeatedly in this House. A point of order is a different matter. The Speaker: Does the hon. member for Wascana have the The hon. minister provided a reply. I will review it, along with the unanimous consent of the House to table the tape recorder? question raised by the hon. member for Montmorency—Charlevoix —Haute-Côte-Nord regarding the call to order. If necessary, I will Some hon. members: Agreed. get back to the House with a ruling on this issue. The Speaker: I am sure it will be played somewhere else, I did not see any of what the hon. member described, but if a transcribed and copies sent to whomever wants them. problem persists, the Chair will certainly make a ruling. I will now hear the hon. member for Saint John, also on a point of order. ● (1515) GOVERNMENT ORDERS [English] [English] Mr. Paul Zed (Saint John, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, during question period, the hon. Minister of Transport, Infrastructure and Commu- BUSINESS OF SUPPLY nities, in his reply to my question, which I have posed in this House on at least three other occasions, said that it was the first time I had OPPOSITION MOTION—OLDER WORKERS INCOME SUPPORT raised this particular question regarding harbour cleanup. I would not want viewers to think that I am not interested in this file, nor would I The House resumed consideration of the motion. want the record in any way to reflect that. Hon. Geoff Regan (Halifax West, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, as we are I think all members of this House of Commons, regardless of about to go into the weekend, I would like to take this opportunity to party, are interested in this file. I know that the minister, in the heat wish all colleagues in this House a happy Thanksgiving and a very of the exchange, would want to make sure that the record was good week in their constituencies. I know that all of us have a lot to accurate. I can think of three times where I might have already raised do back home. Sometimes people talk about the time we are not in the subject of harbour cleanup and the failure of the government to the House as if it is time off, but all of us know that when we are not come through with this commitment. here there are plenty of things to do and a lot of people back in our ridings who are anxious to speak to us. That is a very important part That is my point of order. I wanted this reflected on the record. of our work. October 5, 2006 COMMONS DEBATES 3721

Business of Supply I am pleased to rise today and speak to this opposition day motion cuts. Moreover, the government has choked off the supply of from the Bloc Québécois in relation to programs for older workers. funding. It will deplete surpluses for years to come. The Liberal Party certainly does support programs for older workers. We support the development of a pan-Canadian national older workers strategy. We think that strategy should incorporate a number What does that mean? It means that the government will continue of things, including, for instance, skills upgrading as well as flexible to cut programs for older workers. Let us not forget what the work environments, which are obviously important for older government did last week. It cut funding for literacy. It cut funding workers. to women's programs. These are essential programs across this That strategy should also include community level partnerships, country. It struck me as alarming and surprising that this was done because if we want things to develop and work, whether they are by a government that tried to paint itself as moderate during the last programs for older workers in terms of retraining or trying to get election, and since then generally, although not always clearly. them other employment, or whether they are related to economic development in nature, it is very important that they spring from the community. Those are the ones that work best in my experience. Hon. Dominic LeBlanc: The mask is off. Having community level partnerships is an integral part of any successful program of that type. We need also to recognize that older workers depend financially Hon. Geoff Regan: The mask is off, as my hon. colleague from and psychologically on being able to continue working. In fact, Beauséjour says. psychologists tell us that all of us have a need to work. The need to feel productive and useful throughout our lives is an important part of our being, which works sometimes at home or in another kind of ● (1520) workplace. We have a variety of ways in which to fulfill that need, but it is a need we all need to fulfill. Therefore, these kinds of programs should include not only income support but also retraining In fact, we saw the government cut youth summer employment. and skills upgrading, which are of course very important. The government has cut in half the program for students to have summer jobs. I can think of dozens and dozens of non-profit It seems to me that on these issues all we have heard from the organizations and small businesses in my riding alone, let alone minority Conservative government so far is some lip service, but many across the country, that are going to be suffering because of very little else. It seems to me that its actions so far have shown a this. These businesses will not be able to hire students next summer lack of commitment to a national older worker strategy. For instance, because this program will no longer exist. we saw in May the end of the older worker pilot project initiative brought forward by the Liberal government, which existed for some six years. There has been no indication from the government of The government is cutting that funding from $90 million a year to anything to replace it. That is disconcerting. $45 million a year. On average, I understand, that means 70 students We have heard those members boast about measures for a limited per riding for all 308 ridings in this country. Let us imagine the range of workers in a few select regions when the rest of Canada is impact of that on all those students and their families across this getting cuts to social programs in spite of the fact that the country as they try to afford to go back to university or start government came into office in the best fiscal situation of any university next fall. government in the country's history and of course just recorded a $13 billion surplus for last year. I should point out that it was a Liberal surplus which the government inherited. We have seen a cut to museums. Museums are an important part of our education as a society, not only for children but for adults as Let us look at the government's record. Let us look, for instance, at well. They are one of the things that enriches us. We heard an what Ellen Russell, an economist with the Canadian Centre for important question today about the Canadian Museum for Human Policy Alternatives, said in today's papers. She said, “Since [the] Rights, which we are seeing no indication of support for from the Prime Minister...took power, he has been rapidly emptying the government, but this is a cut to museums generally. treasury”, chewing through a mountain of surplus cash that was left behind. How is that possible? Very much like the Harris regime in We have seen a cut to the efforts of volunteer organizations, which Ontario, what we have seen here is tax cuts, particularly the GST tax need this support. In fact, to me, one of the great programs, which cut. My colleagues opposite are very fond of this tax cut, but we the government has now cut, was this program for volunteer know that studies done by the government's own finance department, initiatives. This program really leveraged a lot of effort. There was a when it consulted Canadians, found that Canadians would have small amount going to a volunteer organization, which, because of preferred an income tax cut, not the GST tax cut. We also have that, was able to have many volunteers, dozens or hundreds of heard, of course, from many economists across this country who volunteers, involved in important activity in their community. That is have told us that this was counter-productive and not good for the gone because of this decision by the President of the Treasury Board economy, that it would have been better for us to have income tax and this government. 3722 COMMONS DEBATES October 5, 2006

Business of Supply We had the program known as CAP, with the community access I would like to say more, but I know my time is coming to a close. points, which provides, of course, for computer access in commu- It seems to me that the way the government can start to respond to nities all across this country. We have seen it in libraries. I myself those people is by implementing this motion as part of a pan- have had the pleasure of attending many openings of CAP sites Canadian national older worker strategy for citizens between 55 and across my province of Nova Scotia. I have seen the delight of people 65 years of age. in local communities, who were perhaps without computers, at having the opportunity to go to a library or a local community centre, Hon. Dominic LeBlanc (Beauséjour, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, my use a computer, go online and get the information they need. We colleague ably described some of the difficult cuts to literacy know today how much information there is out there and how programs that, in our part of Canada, Atlantic Canada, in my valuable it is to go on the Internet to obtain information about jobs or province of New Brunswick and in the member's province of Nova about research for their area of study if they are students or pupils in Scotia, will have a great impact on adults really trying to help schools. themselves and improve their literacy skills, which improves their productivity in the community and allows them different employ- Since coming to power, the government has cut programs aimed at ment opportunities that may not have been available to them prior to assisting workers. For example, the government cut the $3.5 billion improving their literacy skills. labour market partnership agreements with a number of provinces. The member referred to projects in his own constituency, in his ● (1525) own province, that will probably be affected by this kind of [Translation] ideological and brutal cut. I am wondering if, in the time we have, he could expand and enlighten the House as to some specific projects. There is also the $17 million cut affecting the Canadian workplace He talked about CAP sites, for example, in his own community of skills strategy. And the list goes on. metropolitan Halifax that will be affected by these draconian [English] measures. It is time that this government started focusing on the priorities of ● (1530) Canadians, such as helping older workers, and stopped focusing on Hon. Geoff Regan: Mr. Speaker, I agree that these are important measures that will help only its supporters to the exclusion of issues and in my riding I am very concerned about the impact they everyone else. will have. In the Halifax area there are many people who are using That is an example, for instance, of what I was talking about with the services of literacy groups that are providing training. literacy. Some of them of course are new Canadians who are getting those In fact, I would think that my colleagues opposite would be services, but there are many people who are anglophones as well, concerned about the future of productivity and the competitiveness and some francophones. We have seen that this program has been of our economy and would recognize that people who are adults important for a range of people, including aboriginals, people with trying to learn and to read and write need assistance doing so. It disabilities and various people in our community who benefit from makes no sense to cut the funding to programs such as that, to cut the these programs, whether they are literacy or other programs, that funding to organizations that are organizing that activity across this have been cut. country and developing the curriculum and the teachers for literacy across this country. What surprised me was that the government, which was trying to appear to be so moderate, did this so soon, that it unveiled its true We have the President of the Treasury Board who was so fond of colours so early. I would have thought that it would have waited in the so-called common sense revolution in Ontario. Apparently he hopes of achieving a majority government at some point and then wants to bring the same disaster to Ottawa as well and all of the implement its true agenda. However, what we are seeing is that the country has to suffer from that. That is unfortunate. Conservatives cannot help themselves. They cannot hold back and wait for that, or perhaps they have given up. Perhaps they know they As some of my colleagues said earlier today, the government have problems already politically and that they will not achieve a needs a process to carefully look at income support measures in majority government and, therefore, decided to start trying to consultation with the provinces. We need to look at the real gap in achieve their true objectives early. I think what Canadians are seeing income support measures, particularly for people between 55 and 65 is that their real agenda is becoming very clear. years of age. I was at the human resources committee this morning, where we When we look at this question of the summer placement program, heard about the coming skills shortage. In many areas, that is a real which has been cut in half, we as a country are trying to build a problem. We will see it much more in the future. It will change the stronger economy. As we were hearing this morning in our way our economy works. committee, there are many areas in which we need workers. For instance, we had someone from the biotechnology sector this However, in many communities there are still older workers who morning in our committee who was talking about the shortage of are suffering because of the closure of an industry or a downturn in trained workers his sector was facing. As members can imagine, an industry and who need assistance of various kinds. There must be biotechnology is a pretty high-skilled area that needs people with an overall strategy for them. university educations. There are many others like that. October 5, 2006 COMMONS DEBATES 3723

Business of Supply We have a new business in my riding, not a new business to Infrastructure and Communities and with other representatives of Canada but new to us, called Research In Motion which makes the government. These discussions left me with the hope that an BlackBerries that members in this House and others across the assistance program for older workers would be put in place in the country use so often. That company is another example of one that weeks following the budget. We are in a national emergency needs university graduates or people with applicable training, the situation in this regard. The factories are closing, there is no longer a kind that will help them do the work that they deal with. soft sector, there are only sectors hit by foreign competition, hit by unfair competition and acts, as we have seen at the hands of the If we are cutting support for students and removing the summer Americans in the softwood lumber sector. replacement program for students, this will make it harder for students to afford to attend university or community colleges which Now, various industries are under attack: furniture, textiles, is counterproductive and not in the interest of our country, our clothing, agri-food and soon the high-technology sectors will also be economy or our future. the victims of often unfair competition. I will come back a little later I, frankly, hope our colleagues across the way in the Conservative to unfair competition by the so-called emerging countries. caucus will hear a lot about these cuts to literacy, to the Status of Women Canada and other organizations across the country, in the When one is a victim of this competition a few times—and the coming week when they are back in their ridings. I hope they will number of times has been increasing in the past three years— come back after that and start applying more and more pressure on factories begin to shut down, early retirements take place or quite the government that these cuts are wrong-headed, that they are going simply there are mass lay-offs of workers who have held their jobs in the wrong direction, that it is not the answer for this country and for 30 to 35 years at the same place, in the same region and in the that it is time to reverse them. same sector. [Translation] Today is October 5, and I remember what we read in the budget, Mr. Yves Lessard (Chambly—Borduas, BQ): Mr. Speaker, first, that is, that the government undertook to conduct a feasibility study I am pleased that the hon. member for Halifax West will support the with a view to setting up an assistance program for older workers. motion. Indeed, this situation is nothing new. When the Liberal Party This program would be similar to the one that existed until 1997, was in office, the program was abolished and the problems increased before the Liberal Party—and the member for LaSalle—Émard, who over the years. However, today, we can rejoice in the fact that the was finance minister at the time—cut this program. Liberals are now sitting with us, on the opposition benches. I think this is a positive thing. We are right back where we started, and there is talk of a possible one-year pilot project. But that is not what we asked for. We did not The cuts have a number of consequences. At some point, when ask the government for statistics and assumptions. The introduction their EI benefits run out, older workers find themselves without an of this income support program for older workers was a condition of income. This means that they inevitably end up on welfare. our support for the budget, as much as the issue of fiscal imbalance. Here is my question. I would like to know if, in the hon. member's We did not want a pilot project or a one-year program. What we province, these workers find themselves in the same situation and are wanted was a program similar to the one that was cancelled in 1997. forced to use up their savings before relying on social assistance, or to sell their assets in order to then be eligible for help. What did that program do? It enabled workers age 55 and older, victims of mass layoffs, to benefit from financial support, not Hon. Geoff Regan: Mr. Speaker, I thank my honourable generous but appropriate, from the time of that layoff to the time of colleague for his question. I have the pleasure of sitting with him their retirement. on the Standing Committee on Human Resources, Social Develop- ment and the Status of Persons with Disabilities, and I appreciate his The program enabled those workers—often couples working in question today. single-industry areas—to maintain a decent lifestyle until their In Nova Scotia, there are only a few places—such as Halifax— retirement, without being forced to apply for social assistance where the economy is generally fairly strong, although there are still benefits, without having to abandon their dreams of a lifetime by problems. selling off their home, car or cottage. ● (1535) Since this program was abolished by the Liberals in 1997, every Mr. Yvan Loubier (Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, BQ): Mr. Speak- member of the Bloc Québécois has met working couples in his or her er, to start with, I wish to announce that I will be sharing my time region where both spouses were laid off at the same time. These with my distinguished colleague, the member for Joliette, with couples were forced to sell their homes and all the assets they had whom I have had the pleasure of sitting for many years. accumulated over many years of work, including registered I did not think that today, October 5, already many months after retirement plans, etc. They had to give up their dream of a decent the first Conservative budget, we would still be discussing the merits retirement, in dignity, because the federal government decided in —and the possibility—of introducing an assistance program for 1997 to put an end to a program that cost nothing to keep dreams workers aged 55 or over. alive. At that time, it amounted to $60 million per year for these older workers. These were workers who often could not find new Before the budget was drafted, I took part in various discussions jobs because they had little education or because they lived in single- with the Minister of Finance, with the Minister of Transport, industry areas where the entire industry was hit at the same time. 3724 COMMONS DEBATES October 5, 2006

Business of Supply These people were often left in great distress. I myself have bring bentwood in from China and make plywood out of it here, than known workers who killed themselves because the government had using lumber from our forests in Quebec or Ontario or British let them down by robbing them of their dignity. The government Columbia, the situation has reached the disaster point. decided it was worth shattering the dreams of thousands of residents and older workers to save $60 million a year. I would like me to send the federal government this message: in ● (1540) my region in particular, working men and women have been laid off from Kimberly-Clark, for example, and from Olymel as well, We did an evaluation. The government talks about a feasibility because of competition in the pork industry, and from AirBoss in the study, but all that is needed is a simple rule of three, it is not very textile and shoe manufacturing industry. Those companies, and the complicated. It cost $60 million a year in 1997, given the layoffs at men and women who work there, are affected by competition and the time. After adjusting for these layoffs and taking a certain they need us. They need us to make things easier for them. indexing into account until today, we arrive at a maximum of $100 Entrepreneurs need our help too, because often, when massive million a year for a program like this to prevent broken dreams and layoffs like this happen, younger workers are the first to go because loss of all dignity among working people 55 years of age or more. they have no seniority. And then the older workers follow them. But this government is still dragging its feet. It wants a feasibility study and a pilot project. If we brought back a program like POWA, which existed until The last fiscal year ended with a $13 billion surplus. The Minister 1997, entrepreneurs could keep their younger workers; as for older of Finance and the President of Treasury Board appeared, as workers, it would up to them to decide to leave and make room for pedantic as can be, in front of a beautiful big fat cheque saying that them, and companies could invest for the future in a qualified, more than $13 billion were being invested in paying down the debt. younger workforce, for a number of years.

Could not $100 million of these $13 billion have been used to ● (1545) help older workers? They are turning their backs on workers, as we saw in the We talk about the workforce shortage we have today, but it will be softwood lumber issue. How many times have we in the Bloc even worse in the years to come. Québécois asked for loan guarantees to save jobs and plants all over the regions, in Quebec and elsewhere in Canada? But the current This would be one way of encouraging training for younger government would not listen, just like the previous government. people and allowing older workers to preserve their dignity until they retire. How many times have we asked the government to investigate dumping, countervailing duties and unfair competition, which has [English] been proven? In Europe, they are looking at unfair competition and just proved in a recent report that there was unfair competition and Mrs. Lynne Yelich (Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of predatory practices on the part of countries like China, India and Human Resources and Social Development, CPC): Mr. Speaker, I Brazil. listened carefully to the member's remarks. That is why I would like to make some remarks, because the member says that right now What are predatory practices? Countries like China or Vietnam Quebec does have some real disastrous situations and crises. That is have planned economies. They are not free markets. Real production what we want to target. In other parts of the country right now we costs and competition are the least of their concerns. have the opposite problem; we have a labour shortage. These countries engage in predatory practices, that is to say, they sell their products for less than the regular cost of production. They I would like to see us support the motion if we could clearly focus kill our industries, throw thousands of our citizens out of work, and on older workers in vulnerable communities and especially those when the industry is completely shattered, knocked flat, they seize affected by downsizing or closures. Such a change would ensure that the market and move in. These are predatory practices. we target resources to maximize the support for those regions most in need, while making our first commitment toward retaining older The Canadian government—be it Liberal or Conservative—is workers. probably one of the governments in the world that conducts the fewest investigations into the unfair competition practised by its We recognize the merits of today's motion. I sit on committee with trading partners. There have been no investigations undertaken by the member who brought forward the motion. I understand that he is the federal government into the unfair competition engaged by China genuinely very concerned. The intent of his motion is more about or Brazil in the agri-food sector, for example. One might say that helping the most vulnerable. Canada is afraid to conduct such investigations. It was very proud to welcome China into the World Trade Organization. That is all very well, but China, like the other members of the WTO, is going to have I ask the member if he would agree that we refocus today's motion to abide by the fair competition rules and abide by the most favoured so that it would be more about displaced workers and more about nations rules. That is not the case at present. support measures because as members have said previously, many of these older workers do want to be back in the workforce. Maybe we The federal government sits idly by and calls this normal can find tools to help them get back into the workforce. Would the competition. It is not normal competition! When it is cheaper to member agree to this more prudent course of action? October 5, 2006 COMMONS DEBATES 3725

Business of Supply [Translation] In many companies, especially in my riding, if older workers had Mr. Yvan Loubier: Mr. Speaker, I am now starting to understand had the opportunity to leave first when half the workforce was laid the Conservatives a little better. When it suits them, they act off, and the employer had kept the younger workers, some of the immediately. This is often a matter of ideology. They act older workers could have worked part-time to train the younger immediately and they have no hesitation about spending billions workers and make them more productive. The older workers could of dollars for defence, for hiring new police officers, for law simply have stopped working until their retirement. enforcement, and so on. But when it does not suit them, they talk about studies and they talk about refocusing the motion and the program. Now we have a shortage of specialized labour. Why? Because we You do not have to be an Einstein to understand what was there are not giving young people the opportunity to train. A program like before the older worker adjustment program was abolished in 1997. this one would give them that opportunity. Older workers, not The very simple idea was to provide assistance for workers who younger ones, would be the first to leave the company. The younger were 55 or over, to provide them with a bit of a hand up, particularly ones would stay and form a productive workforce for the future, until when they had been hit by a massive layoff, a plant closing, often in the company recovered after boosting its productivity and competi- one-industry regions. Spouses lost their jobs at the same time. The tiveness. couple then had to liquidate all their assets, everything they had managed to put away over 30 or 35 years of working for the same company. This is an ideal tool, especially for the regions, and we need to use That program cost $60 million a year. Today I heard that the it. The Liberals did not understand this before the Conservatives government had incurred an $800 million penalty for fast-tracking its came to power. We hope that the Conservatives will be more on the purchase of military aircraft to meet American security requirements. ball. That represents eight years of assistance for older workers. It costs $100 million a year. That means that with the amount of that penalty, the government could give 57-year-old workers dignity for eight years, until their retirement. They would not be forced to sell Mr. Pierre Paquette (Joliette, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I rise with everything. ambiguous feelings, rather like the member for Saint-Hyacinthe— Bagot. I am actually a bit annoyed by the fact that my colleague from Is $100 million a year too much to ask when the government has Chambly—Borduas was forced to propose a motion that should be just invested billions and billions of dollars in military weapons? It is self-evident, given that we have adopted it repeatedly in this House, shameful to try and refocus a motion when couples are struggling sometimes unanimously. and are asking us to act quickly to help them. [English] Hon. Keith Martin (Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, Lib.): Mr. I have not been a member for very long, since 2000, but if I recall Speaker, this is a fascinating subject, one which is perhaps the most correctly, this is at least the fourth or fifth time that the Bloc underappreciated issue in Canada today. In many ways it really is the Québécois has proposed a motion concerning an assistance program demographic time bomb to which my hon. colleague referred. for older workers. This time, it is in a context in which all parties, Way back when the mandatory age of retirement was put forth, the before the election, voted in favour of such a program. It is strange life expectancy was only in the fifties. Now for women it is 82 years how democracy can get people thinking on the eve of an election— and for men it is 79 years. If we project into the future, we will have and we will soon have an election. a major demographic time bomb that will affect everything from health care to social programs and indeed to economics. If we look at the number of workers versus the number of retirees, that ratio will shrink so precipitously that it will have an enormous and profound I feel a little as though I am in the movie Groundhog Day, that impact. Legislators across our country are not dealing with it. film where the weatherman meets the groundhog to find out whether it will see its shadow and how long the winter will last. The I would ask my hon. friend if he thinks that a couple of solutions weatherman realizes at some point that he is reliving the same events might be, one, the abolition of the mandatory age of retirement and day after day. In rising today to speak to this legitimate motion that two, that we facilitate workers to continue to upgrade throughout should have already—and long ago—become reality, I get the their careers into the future. If we were to do those two things, it feeling of being in that movie, and it is very annoying. would enable us to have the economic base to supply our social programs and to continue with a vibrant and strong economy. ● (1550) Nevertheless I am confident. In fact the current situation in several [Translation] regions of Canada and Quebec means that such a program is a Mr. Yvan Loubier: Mr. Speaker, I will briefly answer my Liberal necessary tool. It is not the only one, that is very clear. Still, it is a colleague. He is talking about a tool to help deal with a labour necessary tool for ensuring that the whole territory is covered. It is shortage. We are offering him a tool worth $100 million a year. true in Quebec and it must be true elsewhere in Canada. 3726 COMMONS DEBATES October 5, 2006

Business of Supply All this obviously goes along with other measures to bring about So, in that situation, 30% of the population is unemployed. There economic diversification in monoindustrial regions. I will tell you will be restructuring at Louisiana-Pacific because, even if it reopens about a monoindustrial situation in the riding of Joliette. I can assure its doors, it will have to do so on other bases. They closed the plant, you that, if the parties present do not vote in favour of this motion, it not on a whim, but because it was no longer competitive for various will be a pretty strong argument for re-electing a member from the reasons that we know well and which the Bloc Québécois has Bloc Québécois in the riding of Joliette. reminded the House of several times: the softwood lumber crisis— the federal government, be it the Liberals or the Conservatives, did In the region of Saint-Michel-des-Saints, two factories have closed nothing—the cost of fibre, the Canadian dollar, which is much too their doors. These factories belonged to Louisiana Pacific. We hope high because of the Bank of Canada's practices, and also energy that these closures will be temporary, but we never know. All the costs. workers at these two factories in Saint-Michel-des-Saints are now unemployed. In the waferboard factory, 218 jobs have been lost. At the sawmill, also in Saint-Michel-des-Saints, 104 jobs have been lost. That means that 322 people in this community have lost their So, when Louisiana-Pacific will reopen, there will be fewer jobs, jobs. because it will have to be more competitive. These direct job losses bring about indirect job losses. Everyone understands that. Subcontractors used to work for Louisiana Pacific, doing electrical maintenance, keeping the forest roads in shape, and hauling logs out of the forest. In all, 229 indirect jobs have been lost. As the member for Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot was mentioning, in a situation where a company reopens a plant and re-hires people—but And what about the induced jobs? If we add the 322 persons who fewer then before—who must suffer? It is the young workers. So, lost their jobs to the 229 others who also lost theirs, we realize that instead of depriving youth of a job, could we not ensure that those fewer people will eat at the local restaurant, fewer people will go to who have already given a good part of their life to a company—we the local cinema and fewer people will buy things in general. That are talking about years and decades—and to a region and who means that service activity in that community will be affected. contributed to the social, economic and cultural activity of that region, have the opportunity, in certain circumstances, to retire with According to estimates, 87 jobs were lost since the closing, which dignity? Otherwise, what will be the option? Will we see youth leave was about a month or a month and a half ago. In all, 638 jobs were the community and the region? Indeed, if they leave Saint-Michel, lost in that community in recent weeks. And what do all those jobs they will settle in Joliette or Montreal and never return. represent for a community like Saint-Michel-des-Saints? It means that about 30% of all the jobs have disappeared. Of course Saint- Michel-des-Saints, where some 1,275 people work, is not the only community affected. Saint-Zénon, another community not too far Consequently, this measure is not only a measure of justice for away, where 482 people work is also affected. Let us say that the older workers, in certain circumstances—and I will get back to this numbers are total numbers. —but also a measure to ensure the stability of the region's population. Of course, I am aware that among the Conservatives— If we took only Saint-Michel-des-Saints, that would mean that I hope not all of them—there are some who think that developing the 50% of the workforce in unemployed because of the closing. But the regions is not important, that we could shut down some regions as other village is not far. Let us not fall into demagogy contrary to the simply as that. hon. members opposite and let us add the working population of Saint-Zénon, which is comprised of 482 workers. So, of the 1,757 people who constitute the workforce of that community, 638 people lost their jobs. Thirty percent of the population is now unemployed. The plant closes, everything closes, including the post office and Of course, other economic activities could appear, but that will not other federal services. That is not the way I see it. I believe that we happen overnight. Right now, the community is working seriously have to give something to the community. In the case of Saint- on all aspects of tourism, but to start businesses of that kind, Michel-des-Saints, as I mentioned previously, we hope that the plant infrastructure is needed. will reopen. However, if it should close it will take several years to turn around the economic activities in that region. Let us give that Speaking of infrastructure, there is one example that the community a tool to help it get through this crisis. government of Quebec and all the local stakeholders have been lobbying for but that the federal government has constantly refused. I am talking about the road between Saint-Michel-des-Saints and Manouane, which is an Attikamekw community of 2,000 inhabitants But no, the Minister of Industry, with his views developed at the who are completely isolated because the federal government refuses Institut économique de Montréal, believes that if there are no more to partner with the Quebec government to build that road. jobs, the people just have to leave. They will go to Alberta. There are ● (1555) lots of jobs in Alberta. Is that being respectful of a community like Saint-Michel-des-Saints? No, we must provide the means for It would be a way not only to relieve this community from survival to this community, and as I have said, it is not the only isolation, but also to create recreational and tourism activities. means. October 5, 2006 COMMONS DEBATES 3727

Business of Supply As a matter of fact, the committee worked on the criteria. I want to to protect our industry. I know how hard they have worked over the refer to them because, contrary to what the Liberal member said past few years to avoid this catastrophe. earlier, It does not apply to everyone, whatever the circumstance. First, it applies to someone who is 55 or older. That is the first thing. It seems that because the Canadian government failed to Second, it applies in the case of a mass layoff or the closing of a implement these measures, the catastrophe is now upon us. Of business. Those are themselves important criteria. In addition, an course, the main thing now is to protect the people who have lost applicant must have been an active member of the labour market for their jobs. at least 10 years during the previous 30 years. So, we are speaking of people who have contributed in terms of economic activity, who I know that my colleague has seen the big picture in the ridings, have paid for our collective tools with their taxes. particularly in Quebec ridings. My question is about his riding. What are the positive short-term effects that can already be seen in his It is also important, as part of the range of tools that we have for riding with respect to economic renewal, for example? Earlier, he evaluating the skills of different people, that we recognize the gap mentioned the shock caused by the closure of Louisiana-Pacific and between acquired skills and the skills now required in the labour the other business. What effect would reinstating POWA have on market. The situation is not at all like that during the crisis at the regional economic vitality? beginning of the 1980s or the 1990s, for example. There are new tools available. Emploi-Québec has new tools for helping people get ● (1605) new jobs, for facilitating access to training. It is being done right now in Saint-Michel-des-Saints. There are people who have lost Mr. Pierre Paquette: Mr. Speaker, again I would like to their jobs and who are now completing health and safety courses to congratulate the hon. member for Chambly—Borduas, who has be able to work in construction during the time that the factory is continued to lead this fight. He took over from other Bloc Québécois closed. critics. We have really been working on this for a long time, as I said at the beginning of my speech. I hope he will be the last Bloc critic to People want to work, but some may not have had the chance to have to lead this fight for a support program for older workers. acquire the required skills. Personally, I witnessed the closure of Vickers in 1989, and I think that the member for Chambly—Borduas As he said, this proposal is not defensive but aimed instead at and I were both at the Confédération des syndicats nationaux at the giving people and communities the tools they need to face foreign time. There were people who had been working at Vickers since the competition and new situations. In the case of Louisiana-Pacific, it age of 15, and they had been promised a job for life. In 1989, the concerns the forest industry crisis in Quebec. Louisiana-Pacific plant closed. Some 35- or 40-year-old workers were completely closed its two plants in Saint-Michel, and people are working on illiterate, through no fault of their own. The system just came and getting it started up again. It is clear, though, that when they try to re- grabbed them when they turned 15. They were told not to waste time start a company of this kind, it cannot have the same number of in school since they were assured of a job for life. They found workers because savings will have to be made and the plant will themselves in a fix. need to become more productive.

Unfortunately for them, they were not 55 years old yet, because Related activities will therefore have to be developed as well in there was a program in those days ensuring that workers 55 and order to maintain the labour pool, especially in the area of recreation older who had been with Vickers for a number of years and did not and tourism. In order to do this, a minimum amount of economic have the skills required to find a new job on the labour market end activity will have to be maintained during the transition period and their professional lives with dignity. people who are unemployed or temporarily laid off will need the ● (1600) means to go and buy bread and butter in order to keep all the services going at a minimum level. If services start to close, one after the Workers between the ages of 35 and 40 can expect to have access other, not only will Louisiana-Pacific be discouraged from re- to classes, receive core training and retrain as welders or mechanics. opening its plant but the recreational and tourist activities developing That is not true for everyone, however. around Taureau lake will be seriously affected. American or Out of respect for human dignity, I expect all members of this European tourists rarely want cross a ghost town to reach a House to vote in favour of the motion introduced by the Bloc magnificent nature reserve in north Lanaudière. This is what Québécois. politicians and all those concerned about the public good should Mr. Yves Lessard (Chambly—Borduas, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I concentrate on. would like to begin by congratulating my two colleagues from Saint- Hyacinthe—Bagot and Joliette for their speeches. I think they shed It is the same in Maskinongé. I know that the member for Berthier some light on facts that illustrate both the problem and the solutions —Maskinongé has certainly spoken about it. very well. My colleague from Joliette talked about the parameters that must guide us as we implement the income support program for The same goes for the furniture industry. When the free trade older workers. agreement was signed between Canada and Mexico 10 years ago, we were told that this industry would disappear. But no, it adjusted, I would also like to emphasize another point and ask my colleague although there were job losses. At the time, there was a program, from Joliette about it. I would like to highlight the work done by my POWA. We need this tool back for the good of all communities, two aforementioned colleagues on the problem of foreign market especially the resource-based regions in Quebec, but all of Canada as invasion, lack of control, and lack of Canadian government measures well. 3728 COMMONS DEBATES October 5, 2006

Business of Supply Mr. André Bellavance (Richmond—Arthabaska, BQ): Mr. face new challenges to adapt to the fast-changing global economy, Speaker, I have a question for my colleague from Joliette, who was such challenges are often especially difficult for older workers, the Bloc Québécois critic for international trade for quite some time. particularly following the unexpected loss of employment. He is very familiar with the file concerning the Quebec bicycle industry, which has been having a very hard time. As statistical data has constantly found, when older workers lose The Minister of Industry and hon. member for Beauce, where their jobs, they tend to remain unemployed longer compared to their there is a bicycle factory, refused to provide any assistance to help younger counterparts. Some older workers lack the education and this industry get back on its feet, or to help the workers of this skills needed for many of today's jobs. Others have skills that are not industry as they face the reality of globalization. easily transferred to jobs found in the new knowledge-based economy. Moreover, some employers are reluctant to invest in How does he think this Conservative ideology reconciles retraining for workers who may be close to retirement. everything that is happening in the bicycle industry, while it is impossible for businesses to restructure themselves? At the very least, POWA must be put in place. This minister, the Minister of Overcoming such realities represents a challenge for Canada. Industry, belongs to a government that is dragging its feet in the Losing the knowledge and experience of older workers would POWA file. I would like him to talk about the ideology behind this represent a loss we cannot afford in an era increasingly marked by kind of decision. labour shortages. However, what we identify as a challenge, can Mr. Pierre Paquette: Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for his sometimes be an opportunity in disguise. Older workers provide a question. valuable contribution to the labour market, which is important to the economic well-being of the country. By ensuring the continued My greatest concern is that the Conservatives and the ministers participation of older workers, we are not only helping to address responsible for this file have an ideological vision, rather than a labour market shortages but we also simultaneously ensure that the pragmatic vision based on the real needs of the people and the vast experience and expertise will be passed on to future generations. regional economies. Once again, this is true in Quebec and in the rest of Canada. We have reason to worry when, even despite the Canadian We should continue to encourage older workers to share their International Trade Tribunal ruling that dumping was taking place skills and talents well into retirement age, as their participation in the and hurting the industry, the government refuses the bicycle industry workforce will play an important role in meeting the demands of the something that the World Trade Organization and Canadian labour market. Indeed, in the context of an aging society, Canada's legislation allows. older workers are becoming an increasingly critical component of Canada's labour force. It is as though they are saying “Forget about it”, as though they would prefer to forget about entire regions that are having temporary difficulties adapting to a new reality. As indicated by a recent OECD report, the labour market situation Pro Cycle, which is in the Minister of Industry's riding, and Rallye of older workers has improved considerably in recent years. have made tremendous efforts to deal with competition from China Employment rates for older workers have increased rapidly over and Vietnam. They need time to adapt. I have seen robots install the decade, from 43% in 1995 to 55% in 2005. Older workers have a bicycle cables. It takes time to get there and this eliminates jobs. We lower unemployment rate at 6% than the total workforce at 6.5% in need POWA, safeguards and a real support program for the 2006. At the same time, many employers in Canada, such as manufacturing industry, which we do not have. Alberta's oil patch, are experiencing skills shortages and lagging behind their potential due to a lack of workers. ● (1610) [English] Mr. Joe Preston (Elgin—Middlesex—London, CPC): Mr. As our population ages, older workers hold the key to ensuring Speaker, I will be splitting my time with the member for the continued growth and prosperity, and offer a means of helping beautiful riding of South Shore—St. Margaret's. address Canada's labour shortages. As Judy Cutler of the Canadian Association of Retired Persons recently stated: I thank the member for Chambly—Borduas for raising this issue. I also reassure him that Canada's new government shares his concerns regarding the distinct challenges facing older workers. There's a shortage of workers, and as more and more people retire, there will be a greater shortage....We have older workers who want to work. Why not embrace their Our government recognizes and appreciates the hardships faced expertise? by older workers who face unexpected changes to their work environment in communities and regions with limited employment alternatives. However, what the member opposite sees as simply More specific, we need to find new ways to reintegrate older challenges, we also see as an opportunity. workers into Canada's labour force. We need to offer support to older workers who may be in danger of losing their jobs. With access to There are strong indications that people can and want to work opportunity, we know these Canadians can keep contributing their longer, even if only on a part time basis. While all Canadian workers enormous talent and experience to our economy. October 5, 2006 COMMONS DEBATES 3729

Business of Supply That is why budget 2006 committed to conducting feasibility He must certainly recognize—just as his colleague who will speak studies to look at measures to help displaced older workers. This after him, the member for South Shore—St. Margaret's—the wide-ranging study will examine the need for improved training and difficulties we are now having with the workforce in rural Nova enhanced income support, including early retirement benefits as Scotia. Indeed, there are problems with fishing, with the herring proposed in the motion of the hon. member. industry, the salted fish industry, which is suffering a setback. Some people have a hard time making a real career of it, working a full We do recognize the challenges faced by older workers, year. It is important for these people to have support, and we are particularly those in communities that are dependent upon single talking about support here. Also, it is important for them to have a industries. Turning to the forestry sector, we are spending $400 training opportunity, to have access to continuing education. If we million over the next two years to boost the competitiveness of this take the tools away from them, such as support for literacy vital Canadian industry. This includes funding to support worker education, which is the key for retraining, reshaping and preparing adjustment. for the new economy and new jobs, we are in fact reducing ● (1615) investments where they should be increased. Investments in vocational training are also reduced. In southern Nova Scotia, only In the meantime, we are offering unemployed older workers three months of the fiscal year are recognized. There used to be more practical assistance, such as skills development and new work money allotted for the development of human resources, for getting experience. Through part II of employment insurance, we are these people in training programs. helping older workers to access the tools, programs and services they need to upgrade their skills and successfully re-enter the job market. But we get no response on that from the government. We see no Under these innovative measures, older workers across the investment and a setback of $1 billion in social programs. We should country receive training, work experience and support to start their increase investments in public Internet access sites in communities own businesses. At the same time, many are receiving income such as Maitland Bridge, which the member for South Shore—St. support while they participate in the program. Margaret's must know well and where we should be investing. Instead, we are telling them that we are not investing anymore. Across Canada more than 80,000 older workers are benefiting from these employment programs each year. In fact, nearly 230,000 displaced older workers receive $1.4 billion in income benefits each Therefore, how will this government meet the needs and year. expectations of people in remote rural communities, in Atlantic provinces as well as in Quebec, in Ontario, in western Canada and in We want to harness the skills, energy and leadership of older the north? workers in jobs that benefit their communities. In short, the government wants to lend a hand to help older workers get back [English] to work. We want to work with Canadian unions, employers and communities to find new ways to tap into the wisdom and experience of older workers. We want to find ways to empower older workers to Mr. Joe Preston: Mr. Speaker, I will discuss those issues with the continue their participation in the labour market, in our forests, our member for South Shore—St. Margaret's. fisheries, offices and factories. Our government's focus is on getting results on issues that matter We certainly appreciate the hardships being faced by older most to Canadians. We want to do it in a way that will benefit all workers who face unexpected changes in their employment, Canadians now and in the future. environment and communities. We are focused on providing the tools needed for retraining and helping them move on to other jobs. As older workers represent the single largest pool of labour supply, carrying out an early retirement program, without fully We should not forget, though, that we need to encourage older assessing the labour market impacts of this initiative, would be workers. They all possess a set of skills, even life skills, that they can irresponsible. That is why we need to take time to consider the share with other workers. They can help us with labour shortages results of our feasibility study and make an informed decision. and with regional difficulties, as mentioned by the member. Additionally, we will build on lessons learned from our older workers pilot project initiative, conducted in partnership with ● (1620) provinces, to improve federal and provincial employment program- ing to better meet the needs of older workers. However, our Mrs. Lynne Yelich (Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of government's first priority is to assist those older workers seeking Human Resources and Social Development, CPC): Mr. Speaker, employment to find and retain jobs. how could the Government of Canada improve the labour market flexibility to support adjustments in the labour market? That is why I cannot in good conscience support this motion.

[Translation] Mr. Joe Preston: Mr. Speaker, the efficient operation of labour Hon. Robert Thibault (West Nova, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I would markets will continue to be central to what the government will do to like to thank the member for his comments. help in the area of market flexibility. 3730 COMMONS DEBATES October 5, 2006

Business of Supply Canada has well functioning markets and, in particular, the labour understanding of the issues that surround older workers getting markets. We have looked at what we need to do so we can be flexible back into the workforce. so workers can move from one sector to another. The days of one job for one's life are perhaps gone. The flexibility needs to be there. This debate concerning older workers is not a debate that is about We are also exercising leadership to secure the efficient operation to go away in the short term, but is certainly one that our new of the national labour market. The federal government is uniquely Conservative government will grapple with and work at trying to positioned to facilitate a cross-Canada approach. We must be able to find some real answers, not simply political posturing but real look at this as the federal government from a pan-Canadian point of answers. view, rather than simply looking at it in regional or community situations. We must, as the government, react as the Government of This is a very timely issue. At a time when the average age of Canada. workers in the Canadian labour force is increasing and according to [Translation] demographic projections will continue to increase, we want to be Mr. André Bellavance (Richmond—Arthabaska, BQ): Mr. sure we have the policies and programs in place that will support Speaker, I would like to ask the hon. member if he really understands older workers. the goal of the motion. Does he understand that the implementation of a program for older worker adjustment, or POWA, does not This government understands the reasons why the opposition has preclude the implementation of other measures to help certain brought forward today's motion. We share its concern for the well- workers go back to work? I hope he realizes that we are not asking being of Canada's older workers, but at the same time, with the for charity. Canadian economy facing skill and labour shortages, it is also Of course, there is a category of workers who want nothing better important to recognize that many older unemployed workers still that to be able to take classes and go back to work. The category of want to make a contribution to the Canadian economy and should be workers that this motion is aimed at is the hard to place workers. encouraged and able to do so, especially in the member's home That does not mean that, during the period between end of province. employment—when they can benefit from POWA—and retirement, they could not go back to the labour market. These people could, of Henri Gaudin pointed out in the Montreal Gazette: course, earn money for their work and it would be deducted from the POWA amount right up to their retirement date. One does not Workers' early retirement is one of the least-discussed problems facing the preclude the other. economy of the Montreal region and Quebec as a whole. The issue affects not only Does the hon. member fully grasp the purpose of this measure? older workers but everyone, including young people. Does he understand that the workers are not asking for charity, but That's because society's prosperity depends on a growing workforce. Quebec's for an appropriate program, and that their reasons are motivated by workforce will start to shrink sooner than most of us assume. If current trends the exception and not by the rule? continue for births, immigration and retirement age, demographers at the Institut la [English] statistique de Quebec say that the province's workforce will decline starting in 2013. Mr. Joe Preston: Mr. Speaker, I understand the purpose. The question is will it accomplish what the member would like it to When we are asked to look at the issue of early retirement income accomplish, or are we looking at a cross-Canada approach to this, or support programs for older workers, such as the opposition motion trying to fix it in a way that may not fix it? prompts us to do, we need to bear such considerations in mind. Chiefly, we need to have appropriate support mechanisms in place As I said in my remarks, the statistics tell us that as older workers which are capable of helping Canada's older workers to remain are displaced from their jobs, they may be unemployed for a longer active labour market participants. period of time. Support would certainly need to be there as one of the mechanisms. The true mechanisms are getting back to work. We have to look at the labour shortages from a pan-Canadian point of It should be noted that many of these workers are eligible for view as to what is the best solution. assistance under part II of the EI program. Under EI part II, unemployed individuals, including older workers, may qualify for We recognize that these workers share skills, mindsets and life active re-employment benefits to assist them in finding and skills that are so valuable to other employees out there. We certainly maintaining new employment. These programs include training, would like to put those to the best advantage. work experience and support to become self-employed. As a matter The Acting Speaker (Mr. Andrew Scheer): It is my duty of interest, over 40,000 older workers, defined as those aged 55 and pursuant to Standing Order 38 to inform the House that the question over, participated in part II programming last year. to be raised tonight at the time of adjournment is as follows: the hon. member for Don Valley East, Firearms Registry. As I said earlier, this is a timely issue, but I should also mention Mr. Gerald Keddy (South Shore—St. Margaret's, CPC): Mr. that it is not a new one. The Government of Canada has had Speaker, it is an honour to rise in debate today. I listened very closely experience with income support measures for older workers for to the comments from my colleague, the hon. member for Elgin— many years. In the context of today's debate, it might be useful to Middlesex—London. It was very clear that he had a good look at some of that experience. October 5, 2006 COMMONS DEBATES 3731

Business of Supply In 1987, almost 20 years ago, the Conservative government of the knowledge based economy, and employers may not be open to day introduced a program to provide an income safety net for laid off investing in workers who are close to retirement. older workers. It was called the program for older worker adjustment, commonly known as POWA. It was targeted to older workers of pre-retirement age, workers who had lost their jobs as The bottom line is that the government is concerned about the part of a mass layoff. It was hoped that POWA would encourage an needs of older workers and, as outlined above, it already provides integrated and comprehensive approach to older worker adjustment, support for older workers on a variety of levels. under which provincial governments and employers would con- tribute to the solution. On the specific issue of early retirement, budget 2006 has The program concluded after nearly a decade in operation as many committed to carrying out a feasibility study to examine the long observers realized the program was failing to meet the objectives. term needs of older workers. We welcome the interest of our Indeed, actual experience with the program showed that it negatively colleagues in the House on this important issue. We are looking influenced workers' decisions to return to work. It is not as simple as forward to working with them in the future, so that we can all coming up with an alternative or some type of government program. achieve our shared objective which is to help older workers live and The program also has to be tracked to ensure that it is actually able work to their full potential. and capable of delivering what we want it to deliver. ● (1625) However, I cannot support the motion as it would clearly pre-empt the results of the feasibility study, which our government is about to POWA was discontinued in 1997 when the then Liberal announce, a study based on extensive research on the needs and the government shifted away from the passive income support programs contributions of older workers. toward active labour market and re-employment measures under a reformed employment insurance program. As the former Liberal minister of human resources, the current hon. member for Every region of the country is facing a labour shortage. In the east Westmount—Ville-Marie, stated in defence of such actions, and I we are facing a labour shortage of younger workers who are would agree, older workers want to continue working. They do not migrating to western Canada. In Quebec we have an aging society, as want to sit at home and get a cheque. They want to take advantage of we do in the rest of the country. We have to look at the entire active return to work measures. problem, not just specific parts of it. We have to find some type of solution that we can apply from coast to coast to coast in this Following the demise of POWA, an older worker pilot project country. initiative was introduced. It tested different approaches to supporting unemployed older workers. These pilot projects looked at how the unemployment benefit and support measures under part II of the EI In my own region, as the member for West Nova alluded to, we program might be used to support the special needs of older have an aging workforce in the fishery. The fishery is a unique issue unemployed workers. A key feature of these pilot programs was that because it requires decades of knowledge to become a capable and the unemployed older worker did not need to qualify for EI in order able fisherman. One does not just go out on a boat one day and learn to obtain support. The older worker pilot project initiative ran until all of the charts, learn where the fish are, understand the ocean, May of this year. understand the habits of the fish that one is chasing, and become a competent fisherman. While the experience of the pilot project is still being evaluated in detail, some preliminary conclusions may be made which I wish to underline here today. First, the best outcomes were achieved with The average age of a fisherman in Nova Scotia in the South Shore approaches that include employment assistance services together area in particular, but in all of southwest Nova Scotia, is 53 to 55 with some combination of training, marketing and/or work years of age. It is a very dangerous environment. It is very difficult experience. Second, approaches that include 100% wage subsidies on older workers. We are rapidly coming to a point where those were the least effective. Third, a project approach involving groups fishermen will be looking to get out of the fishery and we are of older workers produced the best results. Finally, flexible looking for younger fishermen to replace them. That is becoming a programming and attention to individuals were key ingredients of very serious issue that we are facing. That is just one example. There the success. are hundreds of examples like that throughout the country. Programs must provide sufficient time for older participants to ● (1630) learn new skills. Training must be practical and relevant, and a long term approach will allow for more effective use of funds. Clearly, we have learned some interesting lessons from these pilots, lessons that Hon. Robert Thibault (West Nova, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I think can guide us in the future. my colleague understands the situation quite well and he has pointed out a lot of solutions. I agree with him that income support alone is We know that older workers face challenges in today's labour not the answer. We have to look at the community itself and at the market, for instances, some do not have the education needed for support it is receiving to permit people to live and thrive there. There many of today's jobs, some have skills that cannot be easily are instances where income support is necessary. We need to invest transferred to the kinds of jobs that are available in today's in the education and training of these people. 3732 COMMONS DEBATES October 5, 2006

Business of Supply My colleague alluded to the fishery. I have been dealing with a Is my colleague aware of the vulnerability and lack of credibility gentleman who is about my age, 22 or 23. Things are difficult for of his argument? him. He does not own his own vessel. He wants to get out of the [English] fishery but he needs retraining. He has the perfect qualifications for assistance under existing programs at HRSDC, but there are no more Mr. Gerald Keddy: Mr. Speaker, speaking of weak arguments, funds. There are no more funds are available out of the Yarmouth anytime the government spends taxpayers' hard earned dollars, it office. Many people in my community are facing these same should know exactly how it is spending those dollars and where problems and they are calling my office looking for help. I am sure those dollars are going. If we are looking at a program that will cost the member has many people in his community who are doing the $50 million or $60 million, we had better know where that money is same thing as well. being spent and what we are going to get in return for it. We have a lot of community organizations looking at literacy. It [Translation] does not square the circle of what my colleague is saying and what Ms. France Bonsant (Compton—Stanstead, BQ): Mr. Speaker, the frontbenchers of his party are doing. The government cut the I will be sharing my time with my colleague from Richmond— labour market agreement, cut money for ACOA, cut unemployment, Arthabaska. cut the Status of Women, cut literacy training, and reduced funding for training for older workers. First, I would like to acknowledge the worthwhile initiative of my party, the Bloc Québécois, in renewing the debate about the program ● (1635) for assistance to older workers who are victims of massive layoffs. Mr. Gerald Keddy: Mr. Speaker, the issue with older workers is a serious issue. It goes far beyond simple rhetoric and partisan It was imperative that the Bloc Québécois ask for this debate comments that we are all quite capable of making from both sides of because the Conservative government seems to want to put us to the House. sleep with its nice promises and very limited action. In budget 2006, we made a commitment to look at the crisis facing In the throne speech and even the last budget, the Conservative Canadian workers and the regions of this country. We need to study government announced that it would deal with this issue. However, in detail the needs of older workers. We need to look at how we it merely ordered a feasibility study of a possible program to support could enable them to stay in the workforce through a myriad of older workers about which we have yet to hear a thing. support programs, some of which will be education. The point was made earlier that in today's workforce very few people stay at the And yet, all the requisite studies have been carried out, not once same job. They will probably have quite a few different jobs and but twice. They are available. All the government has to do is read continual retraining throughout their working career. That is the them and set up the program. workforce we have today. I would even say to the Minister of Human Resources and Social In areas like forestry, fishery and agriculture, as workers get older, Development to open her ears. She would hear the repeated cries for they get injured, and their bodies start to break down. It is very help from groups, unions and laid-off workers. difficult for older workers to stay in the active labour market. Unfortunately, as we see every day, the Conservative government The Acting Speaker (Mr. Andrew Scheer): We have enough has no interest in social groups or the unemployed. time for a one minute question and a one minute response. The hon. member for Chambly—Borduas . Conservatives believe that people who are unemployed are lazy or do not want to work. Thus, they believe that it is no use helping [Translation] those who lose their jobs because, for the Conservatives, the dollar Mr. Yves Lessard (Chambly—Borduas, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I sign is more important than the dignity of an employer and an want to draw the attention of my colleague to the fragility of his employee, especially given the huge surpluses they have posted year argument. Is he aware that his remarks have no credibility for the after year. following reason? His whole argument is based on the need to do a study in order to implement POWA. However, workers who are victims of mass layoffs, just like others who are unemployed, are entitled to their dignity. They also have the No program has been more reviewed by the Standing Committee right to keep the fruits of their life-long labour and to preserve their on Human Resources, Social Development and the Status of Persons hard-earned assets. with Disabilities. In fact, there was a report on it in 2001. Last year, another report full of recommendations was released. The issue has The Bloc Québécois feels it is unacceptable for the Conservative been studied extensively. government to delay establishing an income support program for older workers given their unique situation. We are asking that How is it that, for a program that will cost approximately $50 appropriate action be taken to meet their specific needs. million to $75 million per year, we ask for studies while they have been done and that, when it comes to armament, for instance, which The Bloc Québécois reiterates that such a program should be costs $17 billion, we move forward without any study and wait until available to all older workers who are victims of massive layoffs and after the House adjourns? Furthermore, as my colleague pointed out who cannot return to the workforce, without differentiation or earlier, there are cuts worth $1 billion to social programs. discrimination October 5, 2006 COMMONS DEBATES 3733

Business of Supply According to rumours, the Conservatives will set up a program, What is the current situation for older workers? What signal are but it will be a pale shadow of POWA. They would like to we sending them? We are telling them that we will offer them no implement the program only in certain regions and for specific assistance, no program that meets their needs. That is most sectors. unfortunate, and it is why the Bloc Québécois is urging the government to act. At this time, an older worker who has been I do not see which objective criteria or which principles one could unable to find a new job during his employment insurance benefit use to justify such discrimination. In my beautiful Eastern Town- period is compelled to apply for social assistance. To quality for that, ships of Quebec, 10,000 industrial jobs were lost in the last three the worker must run through all his assets and is forced to draw on years. savings. He will get limited assistance if the value of his home or car By prioritizing some sectors over others, the government would or material possessions is over a certain figure, as if owning a home be saying to textile workers in Sherbrooke, Magog or Coaticook that at the age of 60 were some sort of crime. You will all acknowledge, their job was worth more to the Conservatives than the jobs at TPI as I do, that this is ridiculous. Plastiques in Coaticook, the jobs in the furniture industry at Shermag in Scotstown or the jobs in the food industry at Olymel in Magog. Older workers are asking for no more than a little assistance that is That does not cut it. appropriate for their situation. They are asking for a program that will help them make the transition between when they stop working We can't create artificial categories based on subjective factors, and when they retire. when workers in the furniture or the food industry have the same needs as those in the textile or the forest industry. I can still remember an older worker who had lost his job. He took People really need an income support program for older workers. 73 resumes around over a three-month period. He was called for Older workers affected by massive layoffs urgently need such a only two interviews, and both times the answer was no. How program, because more and more plants are closing. discouraging! I remember this man; he was destroyed, economically and mentally. He felt useless and abandoned. Today, people like him I have been to many of these plants since I was elected. Some are the people for whom the Bloc Québécois is fighting to reinstate have shut down, some are still open and make a profit, while others POWA. are in dire straits. It is for the workers in these plants that we must act now. During the 38th Parliament, the Bloc Québécois had a motion When I meet older workers in vulnerable industries, I can feel unanimously passed that called on the government to implement a their uneasiness. They are worried, because workers age 55 to 65 are strategy for helping older workers who lose their employment. the main victims of massive layoffs. Despite this motion being passed unanimously, the Liberals did not do anything either. The party in power has changed, but the results Older workers often have little education. Many started working are a long time coming. In spite of its nice promises and fine when they were 14 or 15 years old to help provide for the family at a speeches, the Conservative government wants to ease its conscience time where life was much harder than it is today. by talking about studies—studies that were done years ago. ● (1640) The government keeps putting off implementing an effective and Some people even have serious difficulties with reading and inexpensive program that would help these men and women who writing. In the era of the Internet, the BlackBerry and the iPod, you have given so much, who have paid taxes for decades, who have will understand that this does not make things easy. My mother tore raised their children and who are asking for so little in return. her hair out if she had to program a VCR. They are not all in the best situation for learning, either. It is not always realistic to ask them just ● (1645) to go back to the classroom. [English] Older workers also often have long experience in the company that is closing down. The possibility of finding a job after 25, 30, 35 Mrs. Lynne Yelich (Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of or even 40 years at the same plant is slim, particularly when the job Human Resources and Social Development, CPC): Mr. Speaker, they worked at was very specialized and simply no longer exists in a how would the hon. member define an older worker? How would an labour market that is in a perpetual state of flux. Older workers are older worker be determined and why? When my colleague on the also victims of their age when it comes time for hiring. committee put this forward I understood that he wanted to ensure that the intent of the motion was directed toward those who were Relocating is not always a solution. Relocating people means that most vulnerable, those affected by downsizing or closures, and not money becomes short in the community; Rona closes down, the simply age. grocery store closes and the schools close. People start to wonder why their village is becoming a ghost town. Does the member not think we should be focusing more on Employer-paid group insurance policies are often a barrier to downsizing and vulnerable workers in order to ensure we target the hiring older workers, because costs are higher than for a young resources toward those who need it most? In many parts of the worker. I can even offer the example of my neighbour, who applied country there is a labour shortage. What would she consider to be the for a job. He was not selected, not because he was 57 years old, but appropriate age range that would need this real income support because he was overqualified. This is another point. program? I would appreciate the member's comments. 3734 COMMONS DEBATES October 5, 2006

Business of Supply ● (1650) who gave a thoughtful speech that is totally in line with what the [Translation] Bloc Québécois has been thinking for years. Ms. France Bonsant: Mr. Speaker, I almost sensed a bit of emotion in that question, but perhaps the translator got it wrong. I do not understand that some speeches from the members of the They want to organize a Canada-wide activity in some of the oil- Conservative government are completely the opposite of what they producing areas. There is no oil in my riding. However there are were saying when they were in opposition. So, there is a serious people losing their jobs because the previous Liberal government problem of consistency between what the Conservative Party was and the current Conservative government were inactive vis-à-vis saying when it was in opposition and what it says now that it is in protectionism. There was talk about bicycles, about furniture, about power. What I also find funny is that the Conservatives have a slogan agriculture, about everything. saying that it is a new government. This is an old marketing scheme used by food stores and shopping centres that label their products I do not think it is a good idea to send families in motorhomes to “new and improved”. However, in the case of the Conservatives, it is other provinces so they can survive the shortage. I think it would be not “and improved”, unfortunately. better to develop their village, have them stay there and basically develop what is there. People choose to settle in a location and it is not by ignoring them and sending them elsewhere that we are going to solve the lack of training problem. They call themselves “new”, like the old marketing trick, but that Mr. Yves Lessard (Chambly—Borduas, BQ): Mr. Speaker, first is only to lead us to believe that they are different from their Liberal I would like to congratulate my colleague for her speech. predecessors. In this specific case, they are not different at all. They are waiting for studies, checking things out. They were in favour I will use the question of my Conservative colleague, the before, but now they are not so sure. Actually, considering the parliamentary secretary, to ask another question. She asks what speeches we heard in the House today, it seems they are now totally would define an older worker eligible for income support. opposed. Of course, it is someone of at least 55 years of age who has worked for the same company over 10 of the last 30 years. This is in order to allow a greater number of women to be eligible for this I would like someone to explain to me what happened between the program, since we all know that women entering the labour market time when that party was the official opposition and the time it came leave it on occasion. At last, this person will remain available for into power and why the government is turning its back so cowardly work. So, this is the profile of older workers eligible for this on the older workers who need help the most? program. I will add that I had the opportunity to travel to my colleague's Allow me to reiterate to the House our position regarding the riding, where we visited plants, and even plants in neighbouring motion, which states: ridings, including textile plants in Magog — to name only those. Based on the characteristics or criteria I just listed, could my colleague tell me if there is still time to help people in her riding and That the House reiterate to the government the importance of implementing a real in the neighbouring riding, who often ask for her opinion? income support program for older workers that would apply to all older workers in all Ms. France Bonsant: Mr. Speaker, of course, there is still time to economic sectors, in all regions. help these people. People who lose their jobs are not lazy or afraid of work; they are In each of our ridings, older workers face tough situations when victims of their jobs in the textile sector. These people have worked plants close because of globalization. I cannot fathom how we can all their lives, they have worked 40 years and it is unacceptable to tell the people who come in our riding offices that we do not agree ask them to lose everything they worked for all their lives, be it their with this motion. assets or their house. They only need temporary relief until they find a second or third job, but we absolutely must help them. They are very important socially and from an environmental and economic stand point. If we do not help them, they could slip into utter poverty I would like to provide a brief explanation of the former POWA, and that is unacceptable for any human being in Quebec or in the program for older worker adjustment, which ran from 1988 to Canada. 1997 and was abolished by the Liberals, as we mentioned a little Mr. André Bellavance (Richmond—Arthabaska, BQ): Mr. earlier in this House. The former finance minister simply decided to Speaker, I would like to thank my colleague from Compton— drop workers and older workers. Stanstead for agreeing to share her time with me. It was very important to me that I speak on this motion introduced by my colleague from Chambly—Borduas. He does remarkable work and I From 1993 to 1996, I was an assistant to a Bloc Québécois MP. In would like to pay tribute to him in this House on this file that should my riding, lots of people with specific needs came to our office concern all members who represent their people. In fact, I was asking for help after massive closures, business closures. Those listening to my colleague, the member for Compton—Stanstead, people were unhappy then, just as people are unhappy now. October 5, 2006 COMMONS DEBATES 3735

Business of Supply At the time, those workers could take advantage of an assistance As I was saying earlier, during the questions and comments program that was designed specifically to help them and, as I was period, some people can benefit from an income support program saying earlier during questions and comments, was the exception to and work at the same time, just as it is possible when receiving the rule. We should keep that in mind when talking about this kind of employment insurance benefits. I have myself already been an program. These people were not asking for handouts then, and they employment insurance recipient. I had found a job which was not are not asking for handouts now. They are just asking for help full time, but which allowed me to return to the labour market. I getting through the transition from losing their jobs and having would declare my work hours for employment insurance purposes, problems finding something else, to the moment when they can retire which left me with less employment insurance benefits and more without having depleted all of their resources. pay. I finally managed to find a permanent job. I was not 55 years old and I was able to find another form of employment. However, it A Conservative member said earlier in this House that when is not as easy for some other people, and I think that we must be someone loses a job, there may be a long period of unemployment aware of that. and the person must find another job. Fine. But when someone does not find another job, what happens once EI benefits run out? In Under the Conservatives—my colleague from Compton—Stan- Quebec, it means going on welfare. To be entitled to welfare, you stead touched up on the subject earlier—we are talking about a short- may not own a house, a car, RRSPs, and so on. You must therefore lived and restrictive support program which in no way meets the use up a large part of what you own in order to qualify for welfare. needs of older workers, since it excludes many sectors and many When you are approaching retirement, it is a fine thing to find regions. A real program is called for not only by the Bloc Québécois, yourself in that position, emptying your pockets, when you know but also unanimously by the Quebec National Assembly. Earlier, my very well that this kind of program does not cost much and can help colleague from Chambly—Borduas spoke about what was done by a particular category of people. the Standing Committee on Human Resources, Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities. This committee approved At that time, workers aged 55 to 64 who were eligible because the implementation of a program for all sectors and all regions. We they had lost their jobs as a result of a major and permanent layoff are not asking for a discriminatory measure such as the one were offered benefit payments. How did this work? As I have mentioned by the government. described, a bridge was put in place between employment insurance Once again, it is the Bloc Québécois that has championed the benefits—it was called unemployment insurance at the time and that rights of the most vulnerable in this House. The income support was more appropriate, to my mind—and, eventually, the pension program for older workers was proposed by my colleague from plan. As I said, this is not charity, it is an exception for workers for Chambly—Borduas. As I said at the beginning, he has been working whom new jobs cannot be found. tirelessly so that people in terrible straits will at last have the benefits Figures show that in 1996, 11,700 people received benefits under they deserve. POWA, the program for older worker adjustment, following 900 I would remind the House that last June 9 there was a motion closures. calling on the government to establish a strategy to help older ● (1655) workers who lose their jobs. This strategy would include income support measures to deal with the increasing number of factory Not everyone could decide to retire a few years early because they closures associated with globalization. Before that, on April 6, the lost their job. That is not how it worked. There were very specific House unanimously passed the Bloc Québécois subamendment to criteria. That is what we have been working on for several years. We the Speech from the Throne concerning a strategy for older workers worked together on it with the Conservative members and the NDP that should include income support measures. members. Unfortunately, today, the Conservatives have left us. We have done the work and we are now asking the House to pass this motion so that we can move forward and give those older Since the program ended we have had only pilot projects. Under workers the right to retire with dignity. the Liberals, there was an incentive to return to work, among other things. Some people benefit from those measures, of course, and so How much would that cost? It was mentioned in this House. It much the better. I am convinced that the vast majority of people who would cost the federal government around $55 million the first year lose their jobs want to find another one. In any event, I meet people and $75 million after that. In fact, as was the case for POWA, which who do. I have seen people who worked in the furniture industry, in was in place from 1988 to 1997, it is estimated that the government the textile industry. At the Jeffrey mine, back home in Asbestos, should pay 70% of the bill. How much is this if it would allow people have lost their jobs, very often because of globalization, and workers to make it to retirement with dignity, given that we are they want to find another one. They do not come to see us to get announcing a surplus of more than $13 billion? We are spending benefits under a program because they want to retire rich at more than $17 billion on armaments, and we just cut $1 billion in government expense. Quite the opposite. programs for those most in need, women’s groups, museums, literacy and the voluntary sector. I cannot believe that we are unable Some people can benefit from these measures. We are quite to put in place an income support program. pleased when, after taking a course, for example, they manage to find another form of employment. However, we must be aware that Back home, I was touched by the closure of Shermag, a furniture there is a category of workers for whom it is much more difficult to company, for which we talked about such an income support find a job very quickly. program. 3736 COMMONS DEBATES October 5, 2006

Business of Supply ● (1700) and services should build on lessons learned from previous programs. That is what I have been asked to defend here in this House. I repeat my request and I ask the House to support this motion. How does the hon. member's motion take into account this OECD Ms. Louise Thibault (Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les research, which recommends that unemployed older workers benefit Basques, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I want to thank and congratulate my from participation in employment programs? colleague from Richmond—Arthabaska for his speech. Like many speakers from the Bloc Québécois and our critic in this area, the [Translation] member for Chambly—Borduas, my colleague talked about the need for the government to implement a financial support program. I Mr. André Bellavance: Mr. Speaker, it seems to me that we were agree wholeheartedly of course. very clear earlier on the staggering number of studies presented right here in this House on the issue of older workers who lose their jobs I would like to ask my colleague, since he referred to the matter, following a massive lay-off. These job losses are often the result of whether there is a similar absolute necessity for the government to globalization. enhance—not eliminate—the support it gives to groups and organizations that help workers find jobs. We can come up with all sorts of studies, but I think that we in this I understand that our motion aims to implement a financial House can understand that people who come to see us are truly program, but I would really like to hear what my colleague has to say experiencing very serious problems. Also, there used to be such a on this. In my riding of Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les program, and it was effective and successful. The Liberal Basques, organizations such as Transition Plus, for people over the government decided to discontinue it, because it was not part of age of 50, get less and less support from the federal government. its priorities. Now, after the sponsorship scandal, we know what those Liberal priorities were. But helping older workers was not one Could my colleague tell us what he thinks on this very important of them. issue? ● (1705) We are seeing the same thing with the Conservative government. I Mr. André Bellavance: Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for her do not know how many studies it will need. We did all the work. question which is a very pertinent one. Even his own party agreed with us on the need for such a program. Now, they are sitting on the fence and saying that the situation needs In my riding, there is an organization called Accès au travail, to be reviewed again. However, they do not need any study before whose principles are identical, that is to help older workers who lost deciding to spend $17.5 billion on weapons. They do not need any their job. As I said earlier, we try to find them new jobs but, study when the time comes to— unfortunately, that is not always possible. That is why we must have an income support program for older workers. The Acting Speaker (Mr. Royal Galipeau): I am sorry, but the time has expired. Resuming debate with the hon. member for Sault In this case, what is ironic are the mean cuts that have just been Ste. Marie. announced and that my colleague mentioned. I too remember seeing the Conservative finance minister happily posing with a big smile in [English] front of a huge cheque like those we see in local newspapers when a sponsor gives money. Most of the time, it is for a good cause. In the Mr. Tony Martin (Sault Ste. Marie, NDP): Mr. Speaker, at the case of the minister, all the money went to the debt payment. We are outset I want to thank to the member for Chambly—Borduas for not against the payment of the debt, but we must put our priorities in bringing the motion forward, and I know that he and my colleague good order. The priorities of the government are not those of our from Acadie—Bathurst have worked in this House for quite some organizations which suffered funding cuts but which exist to help the years now to try to better the situation for working people across this most in need. In the case of people who want to learn new skills to country. find a new job I fail to understand and I find unacceptable that the government would make those cuts and refuse to create an income Today he brings to the House a very pertinent and relevant issue, support program for seniors. which is the way we deal with our older workers and support them in [English] their efforts, and the way we make sure that if they have to go back to work in order to support themselves, or perhaps to enhance a Mrs. Lynne Yelich (Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of meagre pension, we look after their needs and make sure they are Human Resources and Social Development, CPC): Mr. Speaker, I healthy, and, if they are out of work, that they get access to the have a couple of questions. What would the member think if we supports and training or retraining they need to continue to suggested that it is about displaced older workers, not just older contribute in the excellent way they have over their lifetimes. workers? Many older workers still participate in the labour force again. I first want to say that I find it shocking and alarming that we are Recently, an OECD report on aging and employment policies in discussing the issues in such a way here today. The way that our Canada recommended that the participation of older job seekers in economy has evolved, we are now very dependent on people who employment programs be increased and that changes to programs should be enjoying retirement. They are having to go back to work. October 5, 2006 COMMONS DEBATES 3737

Private Members' Business First is the fact that the economy needs them in the way it does. alternative is unacceptable. They cannot afford the rent. They cannot For the most part, they end up in low paying, dead-end jobs. afford the taxes. They cannot afford to pay for the electricity and Certainly that has been my experience. The fact is that we have not their heat in those homes. So they have to go out and get another job. done anything as a society and as a government over the last number of years, when the economy has been well, to enhance the situation Since the early 1990s, the government has not been able to find for our retired workers in this country. the wherewithal to come forward with an affordable housing strategy so that those seniors, our mothers and fathers, can move into They are the people who actually built the plants and communities accommodation that is more appropriate to their station in life at this that we all work in and live in now. They are the people who gave of time. We need housing that is more affordable for them so that they their blood, sweat and tears, who fought in wars and came back, then perhaps will not have to go out and get another job at the age of rolled up their sleeves and got down to work. They put those of us 60 or 70 and have to go through the rigmarole or the wringer of— who are here today through school so that we could participate. They ● (1715) now find themselves in a situation where their pensions are not The Acting Speaker (Mr. Royal Galipeau): It being 5:15 p.m., it enough, neither the Canada pension nor the workplace pension that, is my duty to interrupt the proceedings. Pursuant to order made if they were lucky enough to have one, is now beginning to pay out. earlier today, all questions necessary to dispose of the opposition It is not enough. It does not keep them in the dignified life that they motion are deemed put and a recorded division deemed requested should expect in a country that is as well off as Canada. and deferred until Monday, October 16, 2006, at the expiry of the We have not found a way to make sure that absolutely everybody time provided for government orders. who works in this country has a pension above and beyond the [Translation] Canada pension, a pension that will be there for them when they The hon. member for Portage—Lisgar has notified me that he will retire. Even with the pensions that do exist, we have not done that be unable to move his motion during the hour provided for the which needs to be done, and that is the indexing of pensions, as I consideration of private members' business on Friday, October 6, have heard from so many seniors who say this needs to be done. 2006. Indexing needs to be done so that older people do not have to go back to work and be put through the grinder in the way that we have [English] heard described here today. It needs to be done so they do not have It has not been possible to arrange an exchange of positions in the to go on bended knee to government to look for a little help, for a order of precedence. Accordingly, I am directing the table officers to little extra in order to improve their skills or whatever so they can drop that item of business to the bottom of the order of precedence. make a few more dollars to buy a bit more food and perhaps pay the rent. [Translation] It is shameful that we have not found a way in this country to The hour provided for the consideration of private members' make sure that every worker has a pension that is indexed. It is business shall therefore be suspended, and the House will continue probably something that we need to be looking at in the House in the with the business then before it. future. [English] Also shameful are the kinds of cuts made by the previous Liberal Mr. David Anderson: Mr. Speaker, I believe if you were to seek government and which the present government partakes in as it tries the consent of the House, there would be agreement to see the clock to manage its financial affairs at a time when we have burgeoning as 5:30. surpluses in this country. Those cuts will have impacts on older The Acting Speaker (Mr. Royal Galipeau): Is it agreed? workers in our country. As well, the government has cut literacy programs. Some hon. members: Agreed. Particularly in northern Ontario in the resource based sector, we have workers who have worked for many years. They got up in the morning at five o'clock, got into the plant, made the paper or the PRIVATE MEMBERS' BUSINESS steel or the boards that we all use to build our homes and our [English] highways, and at the end of their career, at the age of 55 or 60, they end up having to take another job. NATIONAL PEACEKEEPERS' DAY ACT Mr. Brent St. Denis (Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ● (1710) Lib.) moved that Bill C-287, An Act respecting a National With the way the economy is evolving, a lot of those jobs now Peacekeepers' Day, be read the second time and referred to a require a level of literacy that these workers were never able to pay committee. attention to while working 24-7, some of them, to feed their kids and He said: Mr. Speaker, I wish to thank my colleague, the member keep body and soul together. They now have found out that under for West Nova, who will assist me here today. the Conservative government those adult literacy programs are going to be cut. I think it is very timely that we have a chance to debate Bill C-287 today. The notion that peacekeeping has gone by the wayside over These people find themselves living in homes that are sometimes the years as world and regional conflicts have changed is I think a a bit too big, yet they do not want to leave them because the notion that is worthy of debate, a notion that must be reconsidered. 3738 COMMONS DEBATES October 5, 2006

Private Members' Business However, the reason for bringing this proposal forward is that on instrumental in the UNs' first participation as a peacekeeping agency August 9, 1974, nine Canadian peacekeepers were killed when their for the world. plane was shot down by a surface to air missile while en route between Beirut and Damascus. I also want to mention that one of my constituents, Bob Manuel As with most commemorations, it is important to have a critical from Elliot Lake, who is an active member of the legion there, not and key date to commemorate such an event. The date of August 9 only helped the Province of Ontario pass a motion to effect such a has been chosen as the date when, if this bill passes, each year the day as peacekeepers day in Ontario, but he is also helping me with flag on the Peace Tower will be at half-mast. this project. I hope my colleague from West Nova and others can convince this place that it is very appropriate that we honour past and It would be a heritage day which would allow for Canadians, who current peacekeepers, that we recognize their bravery and that we do reflect upon these things, to remember the tremendous work that recognize the need to understand the changing nature of peace- Canadian peacekeepers have done in the past and to remember those keeping and never give up the essence of what peacekeeping is all in the present who are still involved in that traditional role they about. Even if it is an objective for another millennia, it is something continue to play on our behalf, a role they conduct with great that we must remember now. bravery, with tremendous intelligence, with tremendous ability and, at all times, with tremendous restraint. As we remember those who fought in wars past and what is the In my few minutes, I would like to take two tracks with this most important motto of November 11, “Lest We Forget”, by the proposal. On the one side, August 9 of each year would give us a same notion, let us not forget that there will be soldiers who will lose chance to honour those who have kept and still keep peace on our their lives in the future, whether it is the kind of conflict in behalf. On the other hand, I would like it to be a day, for those who Afghanistan, which is hardly a peacekeeping situation, or some- think about these things—and I hope more and more people will as where else. As the world gets better, as these regional disputes, time goes by—when we can reflect and decide where it is we want to hopefully, ameliorate over time, peacekeeping will again become the go as a nation with our military. preeminent function of the world's military capacity, not the kind of thing that, sadly, we see as necessary in some parts of the world. We support our troops wherever they are in the world right now, most particularly because of what is happening in Afghanistan in that difficult region. It is fair for us to always understand as much as The fact that we even need to commemorate our peacekeepers we can the positions we put our soldiers in when we send them to highlights the fact that because we are, as average citizens, not in the represent us around the world. It is fair to ask questions while middle of conflict, it is easy to take for granted the hard work, the supporting our troops. sacrifice and the courage of all of our military around the world. If some believe that peacekeeping is a thing of the past, I think they are wrong. If ultimately the objective of all our work as I had a chance to spend two weeks in Wainwright and a week in parliamentarians all around the world is indeed to have a more Bosnia with the Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry First peaceful world, then there will always be a role for peacekeeping. Battalion. I had just a small sampling of military life but it gave me a chance to see a bit of what it is like to be in the military. I know In fact, I will quote from a document put out by the United members here, who have spent time with the military, know how Nations, which states, “This 'traditional' United Nations peace- committed our troops are. Our military understands that its role is not keeping continues”. While it acknowledges that it may incorporate ever to be the aggressor. Its role is always to help provide the local local police forces, even foreign police forces, NGOs, and different capacity for education, health, sanitation, water, roads and so on. aspects of civil society in peacekeeping efforts, the nature of peacekeeping may have changed but the goal of peacekeeping has not changed. That goal is to allow for warring factions to build that We must not let the cloud of war take away from the appreciation space between them where they live together. that peace is ultimately what we are after and that it is peacemaking that will get us there. I am not so naive as to believe that in the near I will read for members these few sentences from another UN future we will get there. It is only by keeping our eye on that goal document: that we will get there. Recent years have seen major changes in the number and nature of conflicts brought before the United Nations. The post-cold war period has been characterized by a proliferation of civil wars and other armed conflicts within States, threatening We are reminded every day that this is a difficult world in which international peace and security.... to live. We ask our soldiers, whether they are ground troops, air support or the navy, to represent us in situations that we, without The document goes on to explain how the nature of peacekeeping being there, can never really fully understand. At the same time, we has changed, but there is no argument that peacekeeping is still an have a responsibility to understand, as much as possible, about the important part of the UN's role and is very important to Canada. situations in which we send them. We owe that to them. As a ● (1720) Parliament and as a country, we do not want to send our troops in harm's way without there being a clear objective about what it is they I am proud to say that a former member of Parliament from my are doing in relation to Canadian values. We can have this discussion riding, the then riding of Algoma East, Lester B. Pearson, was all the while being in total support of our troops. October 5, 2006 COMMONS DEBATES 3739

Private Members' Business ● (1725) Mr. Brent St. Denis: Mr. Speaker, I deliberately did not define peacekeeper in the bill because I prefer an expansive definition of By way of summary, the bill has two principal objectives: first, to peacekeeper. I do appreciate that, in certain roles, peacekeepers have commemorate those who lost their lives on August 9, 1974, because to use force. they represent all Canadian peacekeepers who have lost their lives, of which there are several hundred; and second, which is in the same vein of honour and commemoration, we want to pay homage to Maybe the member misunderstood me. An aggressor is the one peacekeepers around the world. Canada is not alone in this venture. making war. I certainly support, when necessary, the ability of our peacekeepers to use force, but one does not need to be an aggressor I know that the process or act of remembrance becomes larger to use force in keeping peace, making peace or fulfilling the mandate and larger in this country as each year goes by. I am sure my that military authorities have provided. colleague, the hon. member for West Nova, who has been around this place for a few years, may recognize, as I have, that the remembrance events in our ridings are getting bigger. I am sure my I would agree with the legion's resolution. I have not seen the colleagues across the way have also seen that these events are getting wording and I would ask the member to supply me with a copy. bigger, not smaller. We should actually commend our legions and However, I have no disagreement with the intent of the legion that their auxiliaries for helping us to keep the act of remembrance alive. peacekeepers should be as expansive as is appropriate. At the same time, we could have a heritage day, not a holiday, which I want to underline, similar to Vimy Ridge day which we have Peacekeeping started with this country, with one of our prime celebrated every April over the last three years. Having such a day ministers working with the UN. There are situations where one can would remind us of the need to evaluate our role as a peacekeeping make a distinction about peacekeeping. For example, would we call nation and the role we impose on our troops around the world. They the conflict in Afghanistan a peacekeeping mission? I do not know. I never ask any questions, they just go. They trust us and we trust deliberately did not put a definition in there so that it could be them and, therefore, we have a great responsibility to always ask the expansive and it could meet the needs of all those interested in questions, all the while paying them the greatest and deepest respect. promoting Canada's role as a peace broker in the world.

I have had the sad opportunity to participate in ceremonies Mr. Rodger Cuzner (Cape Breton—Canso, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, recognizing the loss of two soldiers from my own riding in the last first, I want to commend my colleague's long service to the veterans two weeks. I can hardly imagine how difficult it would be to be a affairs committee and really to the veterans in this country. I know he parent of a soldier who has lost his or her life. The only consolation has brought forward private members' legislation in the past and I is the love and caring parents feel from Canadians and the thought want to commend him for Vimy Ridge day which he put forward in that their son or daughter gave up his or her life for their country and 2000. fellow man. I thank the House for hearing me out and would ask for its I certainly recognize the contribution that our peacekeepers have support as this bill proceeds through further stages. performed for this country and, indeed, the global neighbourhood. ● (1730) Our peacekeepers have established themselves as some of the best in the world and therefore our peacekeepers are held in high esteem by Mr. David Anderson (Parliamentary Secretary (for the all nations of the world. This recognition is due and it is important. Canadian Wheat Board) to the Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food and Minister for the Canadian Wheat Board, CPC): Mr. Speaker, I need some clarification from my colleague on a As more of a comment, when this legislation comes forward, I couple of the comments he made. He seemed to be indicating early want the member to know that I will be standing to support it. I want on that he wanted a day to recognize our peacekeepers but he also to thank him for bringing this forward to the House. talked about the fact that he did not want to see them being aggressors. I assume he was talking about wanting us to play a more ● (1735) passive role and to recognize the passive role that they may play as peacekeepers rather than peacemakers. The Acting Speaker (Mr. Royal Galipeau): The hon. member The Royal Canadian Legion has come forward with a fairly strong for Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing has 20 seconds. resolution. It has defined peacekeepers in a much broader sense. It talks about a peacekeeper as being the definition of a veteran, which Mr. Brent St. Denis: Mr. Speaker, that is just enough time to encompasses our traditional war veterans, cold war veterans, UN thank this member and others whose sentiments are the same on this, peacekeeping veterans, Gulf War veterans and all serving military that we must keep our eye on the ball. If the ultimate goal of all those personnel. in leadership is more peace in the world, then what Canada has done in the past and what it will do in the future when it comes to I would like the member to confirm that he is indeed talking about peacekeeping is essential. all soldiers, many who are not able to be passive in their role as peacemakers but also had to perform an aggressive role at times. I want to confirm that he is talking about all of our Canadian troops I agree with him that Canada's military has an exemplary and not limiting it to just certain groups. reputation around the world. 3740 COMMONS DEBATES October 5, 2006

Private Members' Business Mrs. Betty Hinton (Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of The peacekeeping service medal is in keeping with Canada's Veterans Affairs, CPC): Mr. Speaker, let me begin by commending traditional expressions of honour to members of the forces for their the hon. member for Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing for his service. It follows in a long line of such decorations from the desire to recognize the tens of thousands of Canadian men and Atlantic Star and the Korean Medal to the Dieppe Bar and the Gulf women who have served our country and the cause of peace with and Kuwait Medal. Tens of thousands of veterans of Canada's such dedication and distinction. peacekeeping missions wear this medal with pride. It is treasured by the families of those brave Canadians who have made the supreme As Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Veterans Affairs, I sacrifice in the cause of peace. can assure all members of the House that this government, more than any other in recent history, is committed to giving every possible support to serving members of the Canadian Forces and to ensuring The Peacekeeping Monument and the Peacekeeping Medal that our honoured veterans are treated with the dignity and respect recognize the special honour our peacekeepers have brought to they have earned from a grateful nation. They have brought honour Canada and the often very difficult and dangerous circumstances in to Canada and we will honour them. which they have served. On many deployments there has been very little peace to keep. On others their task could perhaps be best Therefore, I am pleased to rise and speak in support of the described as peacemaking rather than peacekeeping. proposed legislation at first reading. Since 1919, Canadians from coast to coast to coast have paused We know the risks are all too real. As stated in the preamble to the each year on November 11 to remember their brave countrymen and bill, more than 150 Canadians have given their lives on peace- women who have given their all in the service of Canada. In this keeping missions. These missions can be exceptionally difficult and remembrance we remember and honour all veterans. We honour stressful. Time after time and mission after mission, Canada's those who served in war and those who served in peace. We honour peacekeepers have demonstrated exceptional discipline and profes- those who served in France, in Italy, in Hong Kong, in Belgium, in sionalism. Korea, in the Middle East and in the Balkans. We honour those who have served in Canada helping our communities respond to and ● (1740) recover from natural disaster. We honour those who continue to stand for peace and freedom today in Afghanistan. It is not just the physical risk. Our peacekeepers have too often We have made no distinction in our remembrance because all who seen examples of man's inhumanity to man that defy imagination. have served in the past and all who serve today have made no The emotional wounds can be every bit as debilitating as a bullet or a distinction. Their commitment to honour Canada was the same, no bomb. I am proud to say Veterans Affairs Canada is a world leader in matter where they served, when they served or under what providing the special support and services that are keeping our conditions they served. Our commitment to honour them must be veterans and helping them to recover from those wounds. the same. At the same time, the veterans of Canada's peacekeeping missions I began my remarks by talking about November 11, Remembrance have earned special recognition. The concept of peacekeeping was a Day. It is our national day of remembrance for all those who have Canadian invention. It brought our country one Nobel Prize for served, and its meaning will never change. The bill proposes August Peace and a share of a second when the United Nations peacekeepers 9 as a national peacekeepers' day, the day being chosen as it was the were awarded the Nobel Prize in 1988. day nine Canadian peacekeepers lost their lives when their aircraft was shot down over Syria in 1974. We must never allow the great Our peacekeepers, all peacekeepers in fact, continue to be meaning and significance of November 11, Remembrance Day, to be recognized internationally on the International Day of the United lost, as more and more days are added to recognize specific groups Nations Peacekeepers. This day is marked in countries around the involved in peacekeeping. world, including Canada, each May 29. Canada also joins nations around the world in commemorating United Nations Day on October 24 each year. Further discussion on a specific day for peacekeepers, as is indicated in the bill from the member for Algoma—Manitoulin— Our peacekeepers are recognized by the world and they are Kapuskasing, or a day of recognizing peacekeepers, as is noted in the recognized by Canada. Their contribution is celebrated and resolution by the Royal Canadian Legion this past June, is commemorated in a very prominent way not far from this very warranted. It is warranted because the government respects the building. “Reconciliation”, the peacekeeping monument, stands in views of Canadians on either side of the issue. We know there are the centre of one of the busiest intersections in the national capital. It those who strongly support a day a recognition for peacekeeping or is, I believe, still the only monument of its kind in the world. peacekeepers, and we know there are those who never want to see the significance of remembrance on November 11 diminished. Our peacekeepers are also recognized by the Canadian Peace- keeping Service Medal. This award which depicts the peacekeeping monument on its obverse was created in 1997. The Peacekeeping We want Canadians to have an opportunity to decide. By having Service Medal honours Canadians, primarily members of the this discussion, through the parliamentary process, they will be given Canadian Forces, and members of the Canadian police services that opportunity. We are debating it here in the House and it will be who have served on international peacekeeping missions. debated at the committee level should the bill proceed further. October 5, 2006 COMMONS DEBATES 3741

Private Members' Business Again, I commend the hon. member for bringing the legislation personnel. DPKO operations also employ nearly 5,250 international forward. There were a couple of comments made that have me civilian personnel, over 11,300 local civilian personnel and slightly concerned, but I am certain that, in his heart, the member approximately 1,720 United Nations volunteers from 108 countries opposite recognizes that peacekeeping missions are not safe that supply military and police personnel to United Nations missions. Peacekeeping missions are every bit as dangerous as peacekeeping operations. peacemaking missions. Third, their missions are usually effective. Since 1945, United I have the great fortune of having in my riding some unsung Nations peacekeeping forces have conducted 60 peacekeeping heroes who have served this country very well. They were missions on the ground and have negotiated 172 peace settlements peacekeepers. Some of them were RCMP members. There have that ended regional conflicts and enabled the populations of more been many cases where these people have been put in situations that than 45 countries to participate in free and fair elections. would be very difficult for even the longest serving soldier to experience without any ramifications. I honour those men and In addition to peacekeeping and security, the peacekeeping forces women who have done this service for our country and who have have, with increasing frequency, been responsible for supporting kept the tradition of Canada alive. Those are the kinds of people who political processes, building legal systems, creating law enforcement make us what we are as a nation. Whether they be peacemakers or and police forces, and disarming former combatants. peacekeepers, we need in our hearts to hold what they have given us and that we take for granted very dear. Fourth, peacekeeping missions offer good value for money. ● (1750) The people of Afghanistan are currently in a position where they may yet understand what it is that every day Canadians take for A study conducted by Oxford University economists found that granted. We will give that as a gift from Canada to Afghanistan: international military intervention, coordinated under Chapter VII of freedom, peace, the right to religion and the right to an education. the Charter of the United Nations, was the most effective way to Those are all things we should mark. minimize conflicts. The official budget for the DPKO for July 1, 2005, to June 30, 2006, was roughly $5 billion, or 0.5% of the Once again, I thank the opposite member for bringing this world's military expenses. forward, and I am thankful for the opportunity to speak to this very important issue. This raises the question: why August 9? It was on August 9, 1974, ● (1745) that Canadian peacekeepers suffered the most casualties in a single day. Nine peacekeepers perished when their white plane bearing the [Translation] United Nations insignia crashed on a routine flight from Beirut to Mr. Gilles-A. Perron (Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, BQ): Mr. Speaker, Damascus. Captain Gerry Foster, the pilot of the plane, managed to I rise this evening to speak to a bill introduced by a colleague of avoid the first missile, but was unable to avoid the other two. mine both in the House and at the Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs, the hon. member for Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing. Why not choose May 29, since that was the date chosen by the United Nations to celebrate International Day of United Nations From the outset, I want to say that the Bloc Québécois supports Peacekeepers? It is an international day celebrated on May 29 by all this bill in principle. Bill C-287 likely stems from the campaign nations that take part in peacekeeping missions. Indeed, May 29 conducted by the Canadian Association of Veterans in United commemorates Security Council Resolution 50 on the creation of the Nations Peacekeeping to perpetuate the memories and deeds of first United Nations peacekeeping operation in 1948. fallen comrades who lost their lives in defence of peace and freedom. We could choose July 28 in memory of the most recent Indeed, since 1945, more than 100,000 Canadians have worn the peacekeeper, Colonel Hess-von Kruedener, who was killed during blue beret, and 114 Canadians peacekeepers have died while taking an attack between Lebanon and Israel. part in peacekeeping and observation missions. That represents 5% of the price paid by peacekeepers from every nation, given that 2,298 Keep in mind that peacekeepers are sent mainly for missions of have made the ultimate sacrifice. peace, to maintain peace. These missions became increasingly popular in 1956 after a UN resolution was tabled by a colleague dear Why pay tribute to our peacekeepers, one might ask? I will list a to all Liberals here, Lester B. Pearson. This resolution earned him few reasons. the 1957 Nobel Peace Prize. Let us pay tribute to Mr. Pearson for his First, they are a key component of multilateralism, a conflict dedication to peace. resolution principle very dear to the hearts of Quebeckers. UN peacekeeping missions represent an impartial and very widely In closing, I want to confirm that the Bloc Québécois is in favour accepted way to share the burden and act effectively. of this motion in principle. Ms. Denise Savoie (Victoria, NDP): Mr. Speaker, I am proud to Second, they are active around the world. The UN Department of speak on this bill. Peacekeeping Operations—also known as DPKO—is currently running 18 operations on 4 continents and in 10 time zones. It I will begin my comments by reminding the House of the employs over 90,000 people and directly influences the lives of inscription on the monument in honour of our peacekeepers in hundreds of millions of people around the world. The operations are Ottawa: “Peacekeeping”. It is very short, but it says it all. This is made up of military personnel, military observers, and police how Canada's reputation as a peaceful country was built. 3742 COMMONS DEBATES October 5, 2006

Private Members' Business Canada's first peacekeeping mission, even before the implementa- While only 59 Canadian soldiers are taking part in UN missions tion of the UN official system, occurred in 1948 in Kashmir. around the world, approximately 2,300 are on duty in southern Afghanistan. Canada then took part in each of the UN peacekeeping initiatives until 1989. Over 125,000 Canadian men and women have been Having previously ranked among the top 10, Canada now ranks deployed on about 50 peacekeeping missions led by the United fiftieth among the 95 countries providing military personnel for UN Nations since 1949. About 116 of them—and now several others— missions. gave their lives to bring peace to the world. [English] I spent several years working with the military. Engraved in my Some people wonder if peacekeeping is still an appropriate tool to memory is the face and the courage of each person I worked with: confront modern conflict. The tragedy that is unfolding in Darfur is the rescue technician who had to jump in rough seas to pull an example of the role peacekeeping can and should play by placing fishermen out of the water, the young sergeant who had to leave his a force in the middle to protect a vulnerable civilian population and family to serve in Kosovo, the naval technician who was gone for combat those who would attack them. months at a time on patrol in the Pacific, and many others. I always saw the same loyalty and willingness to answer the call of duty. Nearly all lasting solutions to modern day wars have come through negotiated peace settlements and with the help of middle- We cannot stress enough the importance of the work of those who men to create a space between warring factions and assist them in serve in the armed forces, who put themselves in harm's way for keeping the peace. Just as the nature of peacekeeping has changed Canada. There is no word to describe the magnitude of their since the days of Lester Pearson, so too has the nature of armed sacrifice, nor my feeling of gratitude—which all Canadians also conflict. Today's protracted civil conflicts require conflict resolution share, I believe—for the men and women who are ready to give their strategies that include tangible negotiated peace processes. lives for a better world. Civil conflicts in Angola, Sierra Leone, El Salvador and Northern I am using my time tonight to support the bill to establish a Ireland have required many years and several failed peace national peacekeepers' day. I believe that it is an excellent idea to agreements to isolate legitimate political issues and actors from have, in addition to Remembrance Day, a day to honour Canadians illegitimate criminal ones. A viable peace alternative, not just who risked and sometimes even gave their lives in the quest for a building schools, but engaging in peace negotiation wins the hearts durable peace, so fundamental for human beings. and minds of everyone toward peace by offering hope. Those who would violate that process are rightly identified as illegitimate actors The peacekeeping memorial in Ottawa reminds us of the sacrifice in the peace process isolated from the majority who seek peace and of Canadian peacekeepers and leaves us with an undying memory of then rooted out militarily. the contribution these great Canadians made to peace and to the ● (1800) pride we feel about being a peaceful nation. [Translation] ● (1755) I have no illusions about the danger inherent in peacekeeping [English] missions. I know that despite its proud peacekeeping tradition, Canada must adapt to the reality of modern conflict, but I also know That sense of pride is strong and it is justified, but it must not be that we must not follow the American example and rush headlong complacent. The Conservative government has lost its way in the into a senseless conflict. We have to understand how modern conflict pursuit of peace. It has been too quick to resort to a seek and destroy works and how to reach a fair and lasting solution. To that end, we mission in southern Afghanistan and too stubborn to correct our have to be staunch defenders and advocates of peace and never course when our actions are working instead to the detriment of hesitate to take the side of peace, but we must also remain impartial, peace. understand the grievances of the parties involved in the conflict and Since 1995, Canadian direct participation in UN peacekeeping advocate a peaceful resolution, isolate the parties with no right to efforts has greatly declined. In July 2006, Canada ranked 51st on the intervene and, once all these conditions are in place, be prepared to list of UN peacekeepers, contributing 130 peacekeepers out of a total use military means to achieve peace. UN deployment of over 70,000. I believe in peace, and I also believe that in certain extraordinary [Translation] circumstances, it might be necessary to fight for peace. However, I am firmly convinced that there are many methods besides force to Since the terrorist attacks on the United States on September 11, achieve peace. 2001, Canada has spent more than $4 billion on military operations in Afghanistan. I do not think we are exploring all the other peaceful solutions as much as we should, but I do know that every time fighting has been During the same period, Canada's military involvement in UN-led necessary, the men and women of our Canadian Forces have always missions has cost a total of $215 million, the equivalent of 3% of its answered their government's call. spending on international military operations. I would draw my Hon. Robert Thibault (West Nova, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, it is an colleagues' attention to the difference between $4 billion and honour to second the bill introduced by the member for Algoma— $215 million. Manitoulin—Kapuskasing. October 5, 2006 COMMONS DEBATES 3743

Private Members' Business We know that he had the support of the hon. member for Sudbury child protection experts, facilitators and mediators, and people who last week and that the bill should have come up for second reading at manage basic infrastructure such as sewage treatment plants and that time. However, the hon. member had to go back to his riding to railways. be at the funeral service of two soldiers who had fallen in the line of duty in Afghanistan. Our colleague made the right choice and went to the funerals with the families in his riding. It can be argued that the major threat to the international community is no longer from nation states disputing territory or I thank the member for Sudbury who exchanged turns with the trying to keep the balance of power. Rather, we are confronted by a hon. member last week. Thus, the House can proceed to the study of spectrum of armed groups representing different value systems that the bill. seek power and influence. I am very happy to see all political parties support the bill and support our troops since the bill aims at designating a National While these groups may, in some cases, be funded by nation Peacekeepers' Day. states, they also have access to private and commercial sources of funding. They are not signatories to the legal conventions we have Sometimes, we may have a rather romantic vision of peace- relied on. They make no distinctions between civilians and keepers' life because we think they spend their time on the front line, combatants. Terror is their preferred weapon and they rarely engage in a big space between two armies five to ten kilometres apart where in open combat. These non-state actors are media savvy and use the they can take walks and are never fired at. As I will show later in my Internet skilfully to convey their messages. speech, I must say that that has not always been the case.

I spoke with Mr. Herb Boudreau, a retired soldier who was in The result is a blurring of lines, both in reality and in our Cyprus, I believe, where he was involved in some very difficult understanding. In Afghanistan and elsewhere, activities within a city situations. He often found himself in these frightening situations. of thousands or millions in conflict become a dynamic and complex I will not list all of the reasons that prompt us to support the mosaic of combat, stability and security, and humanitarians resolution. I believe the members have already done a good job. I operations. would like to point out a few facts, however. ● (1805) There is no indication that conflict will return to the rather neat [English] and tidy affairs of the past governed by agreed to protocols and rules. Changes in conflict and its methods compel us to think about how On August 9, 1974 nine Canadian peacekeepers serving with the we respond to and manage conflict. United Nations emergency force in Egypt and Israel were shot down by a Syrian air defence missile while preparing to land at Damascus, Syria on a regular re-supply mission. This represented the greatest We need public and informed debate about the respective roles of single loss of Canadian life on a single peacekeeping mission and military and humanitarians, and to determine how both can function that is why the date is selected in this bill. effectively in a rapidly changing international environment. It is a conversation that needs to include all Canadians. In recognizing the nine fallen peacekeepers, we pay tribute to the lives of over 100 Canadian peacekeepers who have been killed serving the international community in this capacity. Next month marks the 50th anniversary of the day that Lester B. Pearson, secretary of state for external affairs and later prime Peacekeeping is a dynamic concept that responds to changes in the minister, proposed a resolution for the development of an international environment in order to create security for those international peace force to Suez under the United Nations. Lester affected by conflict. Traditionally, peacekeeping took place between B. Pearson stated: two states in order to monitor a peace treaty upon which all parties had agreed. These early missions were traditionally military in We need action not only to end the fighting but to make the peace...My own nature. government would be glad to recommend Canadian participation in such a United Nations force, a truly international peace and police force. The role of peacekeeping has expanded to include the delivery of humanitarian aid, supervision of elections, repatriation of refugees, disarming of warring factions, and the clearing of landmines. Even at that time there was a blurring of lines between the blue beret and the steel helmet. Another increasingly important aspect of peacekeeping is support for stable government and human rights, including the organization of electoral systems and the training of police forces and the Pearson believed that Canada had a responsibility and a vital judiciary. interest in creating peace and security in countries ravaged by war. He was awarded the Nobel peace prize, as we heard, in 1957. Canada peace support efforts now include the RCMP and its provincial and municipal policing partners, Elections Canada and Correctional Service Canada. Civilian experts involved in peace Today, more than 100,000 individuals from more than 100 support operations include: regional and municipal administrations, countries are engaged in more than 30 peace operations around the judges, prosecutors, the media, health, tax and social policy advisors, world. 3744 COMMONS DEBATES October 5, 2006

Private Members' Business ● (1810) Consequently, I will be joining the member in supporting our peacekeepers by voting in favour of Bill C-287, so that it can move I would like to talk a bit about the Pearson Peacekeeping Centre on to committee. because I share Lester B. Pearson with the member who is sponsoring this bill. Mr. Pearson was from his riding, but his I will confess that I considered for some time whether the heritage was in my riding also. declaration of a national day was the appropriate means to express our respect and endless gratitude for the sacrifice of these brave and Over the past 50 years, Canada has cultivated a formidable dedicated men and women. reputation for excellence in peacekeeping. Within that reputation, the Pearson Peacekeeping Centre is recognized as a leader in multi- My concern was that such a declaration might somehow take disciplinary peace operations research, education and training. Since away from Canada's long tradition of remembrance. We have for its inception, the Pearson Peacekeeping Centre has trained over almost 90 years set aside November 11 as our national day of thanks 6,100 people from 147 countries, including courses delivered in over to the more than 116,000 Canadians and Newfoundlanders who have 30 countries in English, French and Spanish. given their lives in defence of our freedom. Even before Confederation, Newfoundlanders were committed to democracy as A not for profit and non-governmental organization, the Pearson they are now. Peacekeeping Centre was established in 1994 by the Government of Canada and works in partnership with a range of domestic and We honour and thank them all on that day because we do not wish international governmental and non-governmental organizations. to distinguish the sacrifice of one from another. We cannot make that distinction because it does not exist. Each one made the ultimate Reflecting the reality of working in a complex mission and field sacrifice and there is none greater. The recognition of that simple environment, the Pearson Peacekeeping Centre faculty and partici- profound fact, that one can do no more than to give one's life for pants come from a variety of civilian, military and police one's country, is the very essence of our remembrance. backgrounds. Applying problem-based learning and adult learning It is true however as the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of techniques, the Pearson Peacekeeping Centre is renowned for the Veterans Affairs has pointed out, that for a great many Canadians, quality and diversity of its courses for civilian, police and military probably a majority of Canadians, Remembrance Day stirs participants. particularly fond memories. We think of the horrors of the trenches Research ensures that the centre's training materials are relevant of the first world war, the great battles of the second world war, and and up to date, and its close working relationship with funder the bitter fighting in Korea. These powerful memories make all the agencies and partners ensure that the centre's learning materials offer more powerful the tremendous place these great conflicts occupy in a balance of relevant theory and practice. world history. It is for this reason that the excellent education and awareness Peacekeeping, and the environment in which it is conducted, has programs offered by Veterans Affairs Canada include special evolved significantly since the first peacekeeping mission some 50 modules designed to increase the understanding by Canadians of years ago. In this changing environment, the Pearson Peacekeeping the significant contribution that Canada's peacekeepers have made Centre's contribution to preparing military, police and civilians to and, in fact, continue to do today. develop and deliver effective peace operations worldwide is more important than ever. Canada's new Veterans Charter is founded on that same belief. It [Translation] recognizes that today's veterans have earned the same high standard of service from Canada that their parents and grandparents earned. In closing, I am very pleased to support the hon. member who is The new Veterans Charter recognizes that every member of the sponsoring this bill intended to increase awareness among Canadians forces, no matter where or when they wear the uniform, are about our peacekeepers and to teach them more about the multitudes accepting the same risk. of situations they face. It is not always easy. Sometimes, we must They know that at any time they may be asked to put their lives make the peace that we would rather be keeping. and their futures on the line, in peacekeeping, peacemaking or In order to have infrastructures, sacrifices must be made and combat services, or in times of emergency at home. There is no courage is needed. For this reason, people from across the country— question that the risks and stresses may differ from one mission to like those of the Pearson Peacekeeping Centre—group together the another. Our peacekeepers must deal with unpredictable situations, officers and all sectors of our society, governments at all levels, in where it may be difficult to know who is a friend and who is an order to meet the requirements and expectations of all countries enemy. concerning Canada. We recognize that on one of the days that we set aside we pay [English] homage to all those who have died in the service of our country, but the question is, is it enough? Mr. Bev Shipley (Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, CPC): Mr. Speaker, like the hon. member for Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapus- Our peacekeepers are honoured each year on the International Day kasing, like all members of this House, and like all Canadians I hold of United Nations Peacekeepers in May. Are Canada's peacekeepers thousands of Canadian men and women who serve both Canada and like the prophets without sufficient honour in their own land? The the world in the cause of peace in the highest esteem. question is— October 5, 2006 COMMONS DEBATES 3745

Adjournment Proceedings ● (1815) In terms of working, in the days that followed the shootings at Dawson College, Quebec police launched an investigation into a 14- The Acting Speaker (Mr. Royal Galipeau): Order, please. The year-old boy who posted death threats on the very same website that time provided for the consideration of private members' business has Kimveer Gill used. Police checked the gun registry, discovered that now expired and the order is dropped to the bottom of the order of his father had firearms in the house and the guns were quickly precedence on the order paper. removed. This is how frontline police officers use the firearms The hon. member for Lambton—Kent—Middlesex will have six registry as a tool to protect Canadians from similar tragedies. minutes when Bill C-287 is taken up again. Statistics clearly show that the number of firearms homicides dropped significantly in Canada since the gun registry was put in ADJOURNMENT PROCEEDINGS place in 1995. Therefore, I would like to ask the members opposite to tell the House why the Conservatives are making it easier for criminals to obtain seven million long guns, and how will the A motion to adjourn the House under Standing Order 38 deemed availability of these dangerous weapons protect Canadians? to have been moved. [English] Further, I would like to know if the Conservatives plan to ban the FIREARMS REGISTRY type of weapon that Kimveer Gill used to kill Anastasia De Sousa. I Ms. Yasmin Ratansi (Don Valley East, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the would also like to know if the members would be willing to meet Canadian Firearms Centre reports that 85% of spousal homicides with the students and staff of Dawson College and explain to them occur in private homes, and a shocking 71% of the firearms used in how their new policy will make Canada a safer place in which to spousal homicides are in fact long guns. In light of these horrifying live. statistics, I asked the public safety minister last June why the Conservative government was planning to remove all long guns ● (1820) from the firearms registry. Mr. Dave MacKenzie (Parliamentary Secretary to the Since then, we witnessed the tragic events of September 13, when Minister of Public Safety, CPC): Mr. Speaker, I want to thank Kimveer Gill went on a rampage at Dawson College in Montreal. At the hon. member for Don Valley East for giving me the opportunity the end of the day, 18-year-old Anastasia De Sousa was dead and 20 to rise in the House today and answer her questions. The question other people suffered severe injuries. Furthermore, the lives of all put forward concerns the firearms program. students and staff at Dawson College changed forever.

Kimveer Gill was armed with a nine millimetre Beretta Cx4 Storm I would like to give her and Canadians some statistics from the carbine, a rifle classified as a semi-automatic weapon, or in simpler Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics, which are quite interesting. In terms, a long gun. He also carried a .45 calibre handgun and a actual fact, there are 6,455,026 registered long guns in the country. shotgun. Those are already owned by Canadians. Total homicides with long guns known to be registered in 2003, the first year the gun registry While it is true that all of these weapons were acquired by Gill was fully operational, were two. The vast majority of homicides in according to the rules, Canadians are asking why are the Canada are committed with non-registered, illegal handguns. Conservatives walking in the opposite direction to public opinion and why are they planning to deregister all long guns? In her question, the hon. member references the use of long guns The intelligent thing to do would be to add all semi-automatic in spousal homicides. This government sees any incident of spousal rifles and handguns to the prohibited list. Instead, the Conservatives homicide as a tragic loss, and we place the highest priority on the are turning a blind eye and are planning to deregister an estimated prevention of domestic abuse. seven million rifles in Canada. Seven million rifles. That is seven million more firearms that will be easier for people like Kimveer Gill to obtain. It is a disgrace. It is a national disgrace. According to Statistics Canada's “Family Violence in Canada, a Statistical Profile, 2004”, the use of long guns has decreased notably The Prime Minister claims that the firearms registry failed to over the last 30 years, while the use of handguns is increasing. No prevent this tragedy. This is not true. The obvious solution is to reliable statistics demonstrate the decreases in long gun homicides tighten the rules, add other categories of long guns to the registry and are associated with the long gun registry. In fact, these trends began make tougher legislation to prevent people like Kimveer Gill from long before registration became mandatory in 2003. obtaining these particular weapons in the first place. I know my hon. friend on the government side of the House will In 2003, the first year that the long gun registry was fully try to make some sort of argument that the firearms registry does not operational, only 2 of 161 firearms-related homicides were work and that it is too costly and bureaucratic. That is not true. In committed with long guns known to be registered, despite the fact terms of cost, the real question is, how much value does one place on that there are nearly 6.5 million legal non-restricted long guns in human life? Canada. 3746 COMMONS DEBATES October 5, 2006

Adjournment Proceedings Regrettably, illegal handguns are the preferred weapon of choice This young man has made a simple request. Mr. Kadhim would for criminals. Again, in 2003, 101 of 161 homicides in Canada were like to meet with the Prime Minister and debate the Conservative committed with illegal non-registered handguns or with handguns plan to eliminate the gun registry and make it easier to obtain long that were simply not recovered. The increase in the use of handguns guns. So far the Prime Minister has refused to meet Mr. Kadhim. demonstrates the need to ensure that those who should not have What is the Prime Minister afraid of? access to guns do not obtain them, rather than wasting valuable resources on processes that only serve to burden law-abiding Will the hon. member stand in the House tonight and promise to at Canadians with unnecessary paperwork. least ask the Prime Minister to grant Mr. Kadhim's request for a meeting? More than half of those accused of domestic homicide between 1997 and 2003 had histories of criminal violence. Seventeen per cent Mr. Dave MacKenzie: Mr. Speaker, this Government of Canada of male accused were suspected of suffering from a mental disorder. is committed to effective firearms control that targets criminals while These individuals, clearly, should not be in possession of firearms. maintaining the highest standards of public safety. There is no The government will be moving forward shortly with a series of reliable evidence indicating that registration has reduced crime additional measures designed to strengthen our licensing system. committed with long guns. This is where we must focus our efforts. Instead of wasting resources According to the Auditor General, data in the firearms registry is on the failed effort to count and track every hunting rifle and shotgun often unreliable. Paragraph 4.61 of the Auditor General's report from in the country, we will focus those resources on effective front end this past May notes that at least 9% to 12% of firearm registration screening and on keeping guns out of the hands of those who should certificates contained inaccurate information. This limits the not possess them. reliability of the registry for police. Under the proposed changes to the Firearms Act, Canadians will still have to have a valid firearms license, will still be required to go Supporters of the registry often claim that the police use the through police background checks, and will require safety training in registry 6,700 times a day, but this is somewhat misleading. order to acquire or possess firearms and to acquire ammunition. The Whenever police officers in certain jurisdictions access the Canadian handgun registry will remain, as will the ban on all prohibited Police Information Centre, CPIC, for any reason, such as a simple firearms. Gun owners will be required to continue to obey address check, an automatic hit is generated with the Canadian regulations concerning the safe storage and transport of firearms. Firearms Registry On-line, whether the information is desired or not. All transactions involving firearms will be verified and recorded, This is the case, for example, with the Toronto police services, the ensuring that those purchasing firearms have a valid licence and Vancouver police services and the B.C. RCMP, which accounts for preventing those with histories of criminal violence or mental nearly 12,000 police officers. disorder from purchasing firearms. In 2006 the Auditor General estimated the registry has now cost We made a promise to Canadians during the election and we are over $1 billion. Two Library of Parliament studies further estimate delivering on that promise. Although there has been some that the enforcement and compliance costs are substantial, running opposition, the resounding feedback from Canadians that we have into hundreds of millions of dollars. received is in favour of our approach. We believe there are more [Translation] effective ways to fight gun crime than the registration of long guns. The Acting Speaker (Mr. Royal Galipeau): The motion to (1825) ● adjourn the House is now deemed to have been adopted. Ms. Yasmin Ratansi: Mr. Speaker, one of the first targets of Accordingly the House stands adjourned until tomorrow at 10 a.m. Kimveer Gill at Dawson College was 18 year old Hayder Kadhim. pursuant to Standing Order 24(1). Mr. Kadhim was shot in the head, in the neck and in one of his legs. Fortunately, Mr. Kidhim survived and is now slowly recovering. (The House adjourned at 6:28 p.m.)

CONTENTS

Thursday, October 5, 2006

ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS Mr. Plamondon ...... 3684 Mr. Murphy (Charlottetown) ...... 3684 Government Response to Petitions Ms. Charlton ...... 3685 Mr. Lukiwski ...... 3675 Mr. Calkins ...... 3686 Proceeds of Crime (Money Laundering) and Terrorist Mr. Plamondon ...... 3686 Financing Act Mr. Thibault (West Nova)...... 3686 Mr. Nicholson (for the Minister of Finance)...... 3675 Mr. Karygiannis ...... 3688 Bill C-25. Introduction and first reading...... 3675 Mrs. Yelich ...... 3688 (Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and Ms. Savoie ...... 3689 printed) ...... 3675 Mr. Karygiannis ...... 3690 Committees of the House Mrs. Yelich ...... 3690 Canadian Heritage Ms. Charlton ...... 3691 Mr. Schellenberger ...... 3675 Mr. Hawn...... 3692 Human Resources, Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities Mr. Lessard ...... 3692 Mr. Crête ...... 3693 Mr. Allison ...... 3675 Mrs. Yelich ...... 3694 Petitions Mr. Dhaliwal ...... 3695 Falun Gong Mr. Julian...... 3695 Mr. Casson ...... 3675 Mr. Ouellet ...... 3695 Marriage Mr. Warawa ...... 3697 Mr. Casson ...... 3675 Ms. Folco...... 3697 Age of Consent Mr. Allen ...... 3697 Mr. Casson ...... 3675 Mr. Szabo ...... 3699 Euthanasia Mr. Lessard ...... 3699 Mr. Casson ...... 3675 Mr. Batters...... 3699 Homelessness Mr. Scarpaleggia ...... 3700 Mr. Ouellet ...... 3675 Mrs. Yelich ...... 3701 Questions on the Order Paper Mr. Lessard ...... 3701 Mr. Lukiwski ...... 3675 Mrs. DeBellefeuille...... 3701 Privilege Mr. Warawa ...... 3702 Freedom of Speech Mr. Murphy (Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe)...... 3703 Mr. Szabo ...... 3676 Mr. Plamondon ...... 3703

Mr. Nicholson ...... 3676 Mrs. Yelich ...... 3704

Mr. Cuzner ...... 3704

GOVERNMENT ORDERS Ms. Folco...... 3705 Business of Supply Mrs. Yelich ...... 3706 Opposition Motion—for Older workers Income Sup- Mr. Lessard ...... 3706 port Mr. Vincent ...... 3706 Mr. Guimond ...... 3676 Motion ...... 3677 STATEMENTS BY MEMBERS (Motion agreed to) ...... 3677 Vincent Plante Mr. Lessard ...... 3677 Mr. Blaney ...... 3707 Motion ...... 3677 Mr. Batters...... 3679 Teachers Mr. Dhaliwal ...... 3679 Mr. Tonks ...... 3707 Ms. Black ...... 3680 Canadian Women's Curling Championship

Ms. Finley ...... 3680 Mr. Guimond ...... 3707 Mr. Lessard ...... 3681 Wild Salmon Stocks Mr. Thibault (West Nova)...... 3682 Mr. Cullen ...... 3707 Mr. Paradis ...... 3682 Mr. Lessard ...... 3683 Biofuels Strategy Mr. Murphy (Charlottetown) ...... 3683 Mr. Anderson...... 3708 Sri Lanka Ms. Stronach ...... 3712

Ms. Sgro...... 3708 Mr. Toews ...... 3712 Canada-Ukraine Parliamentary Program Status of Women

Mr. Goldring ...... 3708 Ms. Minna...... 3712 Alberta Human Rights Commission Ms. Oda ...... 3712 Ms. Picard ...... 3708 Ms. Minna...... 3712 Ms. Oda ...... 3713 Champions of Mental Health Award Mrs. Hinton ...... 3708 Sport Mr. Malo ...... 3713 Proposed Pickering Airport Mr. Chong ...... 3713 Mr. Holland ...... 3709 Ms. Gagnon ...... 3713

Liberal Party of Canada Ms. Verner...... 3713 Mr. Preston ...... 3709 Government Programs Foreign Affairs Mrs. Mourani...... 3713 Ms. McDonough ...... 3709 Ms. Oda ...... 3713 Oktoberfest Justice Mrs. Redman ...... 3709 Mr. Ménard (Hochelaga) ...... 3713

Savoura Greenhouses Mr. Toews ...... 3713 Mr. André ...... 3709 Citizenship and Immigration

Amish School Shootings Mr. Telegdi ...... 3714

Mr. Martin (Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca) ...... 3710 Mr. Solberg ...... 3714 Federal Accountability Act Mr. Telegdi ...... 3714 Mr. Cannan ...... 3710 Mr. Solberg ...... 3714 Public Works and Government Services

ORAL QUESTIONS Mr. Proulx ...... 3714 Justice Mr. O'Connor...... 3714 Mr. Graham (Toronto Centre) ...... 3710 Mr. Proulx ...... 3714 Mr. Kenney...... 3710 Mr. Moore (Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam) . 3714 Mr. Graham (Toronto Centre) ...... 3710 Afghanistan Mr. Kenney...... 3710 Mr. Hawn...... 3714 Mr. Graham (Toronto Centre) ...... 3711 Ms. Verner...... 3715 Mr. Kenney...... 3711 Ms. Black ...... 3715 Ms. Robillard...... 3711 Mr. O'Connor...... 3715 Mr. Kenney...... 3711 Ms. Black ...... 3715 Ms. Robillard...... 3711 Mr. O'Connor...... 3715 Mr. Kenney...... 3711 Aboriginal Affairs National Defence Mr. Holland ...... 3715 Mr. Duceppe...... 3711 Mr. Bruinooge ...... 3715 Mr. Kenney...... 3711 Mr. Holland ...... 3715 Mr. Duceppe...... 3711 Mr. Bruinooge ...... 3715 Mr. Kenney...... 3711 Mr. St. Denis ...... 3715 Mr. Bachand...... 3711 Mr. Bruinooge ...... 3715 Mr. O'Connor...... 3711 ...... Mr. Bachand...... 3711 Mr. St. Denis 3716 Mr. O'Connor...... 3712 Mr. Bruinooge ...... 3716 National Security Labour Mr. Comartin ...... 3712 Mrs. Lavallée ...... 3716 Mr. Day...... 3712 Mr. Blackburn ...... 3716 Mr. Comartin ...... 3712 Mrs. Lavallée ...... 3716 Mr. Day...... 3712 Mr. Blackburn ...... 3716 Justice Ports and Harbours Ms. Stronach ...... 3712 Mr. Zed ...... 3716 Mr. Toews ...... 3712 Mr. Cannon...... 3716 Payday Loan Industry Mr. Regan ...... 3720

Mr. Goldring ...... 3716 Mr. LeBlanc ...... 3722

Mr. Toews ...... 3717 Mr. Lessard ...... 3723 Canadian Wheat Board Mr. Loubier...... 3723 ...... Mr. Atamanenko...... 3717 Mrs. Yelich 3724 Mr. Strahl...... 3717 Mr. Martin (Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca) ...... 3725 Mr. Atamanenko...... 3717 Mr. Paquette ...... 3725 Mr. Strahl...... 3717 Mr. Lessard ...... 3727 Mr. Bellavance ...... 3728 Canadian Heritage Mr. Preston ...... 3728 Ms. Neville ...... 3717 Mr. Thibault (West Nova)...... 3729 Ms. Oda ...... 3717 Mrs. Yelich ...... 3729 Foreign Affairs Mr. Bellavance ...... 3730 Mr. Norlock ...... 3717 Mr. Keddy ...... 3730 Mr. MacKay ...... 3717 Mr. Thibault (West Nova)...... 3731

Literacy Mr. Lessard ...... 3732

Mr. Goodale ...... 3718 Ms. Bonsant ...... 3732

Mr. Baird ...... 3718 Mrs. Yelich ...... 3733 Access to information Mr. Lessard ...... 3734 Mr. Laforest ...... 3718 Mr. Bellavance ...... 3734 Mr. Baird ...... 3718 Ms. Thibault (Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques) ...... 3736 Presence in Gallery Mrs. Yelich ...... 3736 The Speaker ...... 3718 Mr. Martin (Sault Ste. Marie) ...... 3736

Business of the House Divisions deemed demanded and deferred...... 3737 Mr. Goodale ...... 3718 Mr. Nicholson ...... 3718 PRIVATE MEMBERS' BUSINESS Privilege National Peacekeepers' Day Act

Comments Made by Parliamentary Secretary to the Mr. St. Denis ...... 3737 Prime Minister—Speaker's Ruling Bill C-287. Second reading ...... 3737 The Speaker ...... 3718 Mr. Anderson...... 3739

Points of Order Mr. Cuzner ...... 3739

Decorum Mrs. Hinton ...... 3740

Mr. Guimond ...... 3719 Mr. Perron ...... 3741

Mr. Solberg ...... 3720 Ms. Savoie ...... 3741

Mr. Zed ...... 3720 Mr. Thibault (West Nova)...... 3742 ...... Mr. Goodale 3720 Mr. Shipley ...... 3744

GOVERNMENT ORDERS ADJOURNMENT PROCEEDINGS Business of Supply Firearms Registry Opposition Motion—Older Workers Income Support Ms. Ratansi...... 3745 Motion ...... 3720 Mr. MacKenzie ...... 3745 MAIL POSTE

Canada Post Corporation / Société canadienne des postes

Postage paid Port payé Lettermail Poste–lettre 1782711 Ottawa

If undelivered, return COVER ONLY to: Publishing and Depository Services Public Works and Government Services Canada Ottawa, Ontario K1A 0S5

En cas de non-livraison, retourner cette COUVERTURE SEULEMENT à : Les Éditions et Services de dépôt Travaux publics et Services gouvernementaux Canada Ottawa (Ontario) K1A 0S5

Published under the authority of the Speaker of the House of Commons

Publié en conformité de l'autorité du Président de la Chambre des communes

Also available on the Parliament of Canada Web Site at the following address: Aussi disponible sur le site Web du Parlement du Canada à l’adresse suivante : http://www.parl.gc.ca

The Speaker of the House hereby grants permission to reproduce this document, in whole or in part, for use in schools and for other purposes such as private study, research, criticism, review or newspaper summary. Any commercial or other use or reproduction of this publication requires the express prior written authorization of the Speaker of the House of Commons.

Additional copies may be obtained from Publishing and Depository Services Public Works and Government Services Canada Ottawa, Ontario K1A 0S5 Telephone: (613) 941-5995 or 1-800-635-7943 Fax: (613) 954-5779 or 1-800-565-7757 [email protected] http://publications.gc.ca

Le Président de la Chambre des communes accorde, par la présente, l'autorisation de reproduire la totalité ou une partie de ce document à des fins éducatives et à des fins d'étude privée, de recherche, de critique, de compte rendu ou en vue d'en préparer un résumé de journal. Toute reproduction de ce document à des fins commerciales ou autres nécessite l'obtention au préalable d'une autorisation écrite du Président.

On peut obtenir des copies supplémentaires ou la version française de cette publication en écrivant à : Les Éditions et Services de dépôt Travaux publics et Services gouvernementaux Canada Ottawa (Ontario) K1A 0S5 Téléphone : (613) 941-5995 ou 1-800-635-7943 Télécopieur : (613) 954-5779 ou 1-800-565-7757 [email protected] http://publications.gc.ca