INTERVIEW Bella DePaulo and Robert Milardo Beyond the Nuclear Family

Bella DePaulo is a visiting Robert M. Milardo is a professor In a recent interview with Vision’s professor at the University of of family relations at the University Gina Stepp, these two experts came California–Santa Barbara. As a of Maine, whose research focus together for a discussion about social scientist, she has focused on includes family relationships, marital “collateral kin” and the important friendship and single life as well relationships, kinship, friendship, contributions they make to healthy as on interpersonal deception. and aunts and uncles. The latter is families and strong communities. Among her published books are the topic of his latest book, The three related to the role of singles Forgotten Kin: Aunts and Uncles. in society, including Singled Out: How Singles Are Stereotyped, Stigmatized, and Ignored, and Still Live Happily Ever After.

GS The nuclear family is a relatively BD And the fact that there’s more than BD A book that I’ve found really modern construct. What are we miss- just one other person contributes to interesting relative to Bob’s point is ing when we overlook the larger family that flexibility. One of the implications of Rethinking Friendship: Hidden Soli- such as aunts and uncles, whether single everyone thinking in terms of a nuclear darities Today by Liz Spencer and Ray or otherwise? family is that all these people who have Pahl. They use the concept of personal RM I think for many people the idea the experience Bob describes think they communities, asking, “Who are the of the nuclear family doesn’t really ring are outside the norm. Even though they people in your personal community?” true. I did grow up with two parents who realize that the family life they experi- They’ve found that some people have stayed married all their lives, more than ence is across households, they assume very insular personal communities, 60 years, and I had siblings, but my family they must not be living the typical family where it might be mostly just one other was never nuclear. It was always a very life—just like when people used to watch important person—like a spouse or, for permeable household; there were always shows like Leave It to Beaver and think, some, perhaps a therapist or some other people coming and going and plans “Why doesn’t my mother vacuum in high professional. But others had much more being made for who was going to buy heels?” At the cultural level, so much extensive communities, and these were the donuts for the next group gathering. of our talk is nuclear-family oriented, the ones who tended to be much better BD I can certainly relate. I grew up the and one of the things that happens as a off psychologically—those who were not same way. Every occasion included all result is that the role of people who are just focused on one person or a small the aunts and uncles and cousins—and not parents (including aunts and uncles, number of persons. food! Aunts and uncles would just show but not just them) is made invisible. GS You would think that a more up at your door sometimes. We may fail to recognize the role most extensive personal community would RM Absolutely. And the funny thing is people are playing, because it doesn’t contribute to a wider capacity for psy- that when I visit my cousin Denise—she’s get highlighted by the nuclear construct. chological resilience. the oldest of six siblings—her house- RM As if they are not there. They’re not BD Exactly. If you only look to one hold is the same way. Her brothers and part of the discourse. person or a small number of people as sisters and their children and spouses GS What are some of the vital func- your core, you have a certain vulner- are always coming over. Whatever the tions aunts and uncles perform that we ability that you don’t have if there are reasons for meeting, there is always a lot aren’t paying attention to? layers of support. And that’s where aunts of food involved. RM Well, one is that they do what we and uncles come in. The aunt/uncle I don’t think families like Bella’s and call “other-parenting.” They provide role is really interesting, because it’s a like mine are necessarily the exception. child care when parents need help; family role, so it’s blood-related, and The idea of a nuclear family doesn’t they can complement or supplement yet it’s not so obligatory as a parent- seem to represent how families really what parents do across the parenting ing role. What aunts and uncles do can live. Many do, but many do not. I think spectrum. That’s one really important have a special meaning to the nieces public rhetoric says families are organ- function of aunts and uncles. They can and nephews, because they realize that ized that way. We often talk about them also influence the well-being of children this isn’t required. An aunt or uncle who as unique households, but we really simply by befriending them, mentoring spends a lot of time with nieces and often live across households. Let me them, even offering them some under- nephews is expressing that they really give you an example. I interviewed a standing of why their parents ask them are interested. woman of about 50 who had four sis- to do the things they do. But aunts and GS I suspect that what Robert calls ters but no children of her own. The uncles also mentor parents, often having “chosen relationships” would convey sisters got together weekly and planned a very important influence. Parents can a similar special meaning. things together. They’d do shopping share some of the difficulties or frustra- RM Yes, an aunt or uncle can be trips together overnight, they’d go to tions they’re having—say, in raising a related by blood or by marriage, or it shows together; their lives revolved teenager. Aunts and uncles can provide could be a close friend who is treated around each other. So it would be silly another perspective. If they are parents as an aunt or an uncle. In fact, children to talk about her family life as if it were themselves, they can talk about their may even call them “Aunt” or “Uncle” nuclear—as if it were based in a house- own parenting experience; if not, they even though there is no direct blood hold. It’s not based in a household, it’s can still be supportive of what parents relation. We sometimes talk about these based across households. And there’s are doing. Those two functions—the people as chosen kin or fictive kin. I like flexibility to it too, because she doesn’t effect they have on parents and the “chosen” better. go every week. Sometimes she has effect they have on children—are core. BD It sounds a little less like other things to do. They’re really essential. make-believe. 1 | 32 SUMMER 20 1

VISION RM Yes. And I think aunts and uncles, where aunts and uncles sometimes feel “ The idea of a nuclear whether they’re related by blood or mar- left out in important ways. For instance, family doesn’t riage or are selected, are best suited one woman tells a story of being present for the role they play because of one at a niece’s or nephew’s birth, like Bob seem to represent important fact: they can be lifelong rela- was talking about, and yet when the pic- tionships. They’re irreplaceable relation- tures were taken she was asked to step how families really ships. Aunts and uncles have so much aside, so that the pictures that would knowledge about the key players, such be sent out would just be the mom, the live. Many do, but as their siblings and other family mem- dad and the newborn. So this may be bers, and this key information that stems one of the areas where our stereotype many do not. I think from a lifetime of shared experience of the nuclear family is played out—in positions them similarly to grandpar- the public display of family rather than public rhetoric ents; but they have a unique perspec- the actual practice. says families are tive, because there is typically less of a GS It’s interesting that Robert found in generational difference. Because that his research sample that the importance organized that way.” relationship persists over a lifetime, it’s of kinship was amplified for women and irreplaceable. Compared to anyone perhaps particularly for childless women. ROBERT M. MILARDO else in their life, that makes them spe- Have either of you seen indications that cial. Now, that doesn’t mean the other this may be changing as current genera- people in their life aren’t important too, tions of men become more engaged in and Bella makes that point nicely when child rearing? she refers to Ray Pahl’s book with Liz RM That’s a really good question: Spencer. It’s not that these other people whether or not there’s any change in in our lives aren’t important, it’s just that the participation of men in “uncling.” aunts and uncles bring to bear a unique I can’t think of any study that addresses perspective because the relationship that issue. is lifelong. So, for example, it was not BD My readers sometimes ask me uncommon for people to talk to me about that. They want to read about it about being present at the birth of their and discuss it—especially the men who niece or nephew, and having shared in read my Living Single blog and feel that virtually every important experience in uncling is important in their lives. that niece’s or nephew’s life. That’s the RM Actually, the reason I started this potential that’s irreplaceable. It’s like study of aunts and uncles was because having your own biography cowritten I was interested in interviewing men with another person. involved in caregiving roles. At the time BD Another implication of our focus there was a reasonably well developed on the nuclear family is that sometimes literature on fathering, so I thought it the sibling relationship is shortchanged. would be interesting to look at uncling. I perversely like to ask scholars who I was particularly interested in look- have spent their professional lives study- ing at examples of the ways in which ing personal relationships, “Who’s the uncles could be involved with children, person with whom you’re likely to have from those who are really dramatically the longest-standing relationship.” It involved to those who are only margin- often takes them a while to come up ally involved. I was very curious myself with (if they ever do) “siblings.” about whether there were examples of GS I’m glad you brought that up. It men doing really positive things with does seem fairly intuitive that broth- children who were not their own. And ers and sisters who get along well turn of course, there are lots of examples. into aunts and uncles who want to be I want to make one point clear involved across households. regarding kin-keeping, because I think BD Yes. Now, some of the stories I it’s very important. It is true that there’s hear also include the negative side, not a lot of research on the issue of 1 | 33 SUMMER 20 1

VISION kin-keeping; in other words, who is they routinely talked about that. Some responsible for maintaining ties with kin. of them clearly had close relationships. “What aunts and But the research that has been done Not only might an aunt have a close only marginally finds that the majority relationship with a particular niece or uncles do can have of kin-keeping is done by women in the two but also with nephews. Maybe they family. Usually one woman in the family take on slightly different characteristics, a special meaning is the major kin-keeper; she’s responsi- I don’t know. In future research it would to the nieces and ble for making sure that the anniversary be interesting to look at how they differ. parties and other important family occa- I have relationships with both my niece nephews, because sions are held. However, there’s a large and my nephew. It just goes to show minority of men who also do it, and you—the cliché that “it takes a village.” they realize that they have sort of been forgotten. They I love that image when it’s applied to don’t fit the stereotype and are left out families. Men can have a very positive this isn’t required. of the discourse about families. Two impact on children’s lives at all ages, and studies found that about 25 percent of the children can have a very important An aunt or uncle who men interviewed were involved in kin- impact on the men as well. It goes both spends a lot of time keeping activities. This is rather a large ways. I was just talking to a fairly young proportion, actually. Are they doing the aunt about how her niece has changed with nieces and same degree of work women typically the way she thinks about herself. The do? I don’t know the answer to that. niece is under a year old; she’s an infant. nephews is expressing GS It would also be interesting to And the aunt didn’t anticipate becoming know whether that, too, could be chang- so involved so quickly, but her niece’s that they really ing as men become more involved with birth had a really dramatic effect on her, children and families. and it changed the way she thinks about are interested.” BD And you know, another part of herself. It’s a good example of how BELLA DEPAULO that, Gina, is that it may be happening becoming involved with children influ- from the other direction, as Bob often ences your own perception. points out—that it’s the nephews who GS What are some of the reasons instigate it. For example, my oldest aunts and uncles (single or otherwise) nephew is great at keeping in touch. may not choose to be part of the lives of He is better at keeping in touch with me their nieces and nephews to the same than I am with him. Part of that is that degree as the aunt you’re speaking of— I’ve gotten away from the telephone; I or perhaps at all? use my e-mail and modalities like that, RM One of the reasons might be that but he will pick up the phone and call. they didn’t get along with their sibling I’m out here on the West Coast and growing up, so now they have no inter- he’s 3,000 miles away on Wall Street— est in having a relationship with their a 20-something-year-old. sibling’s children. But there might be GS Which raises another question: any number of reasons for someone Considering the existing literature on choosing not to fill these roles, and we father-daughter relationships, which certainly don’t want to demonize anyone suggests that daughters gain a great for that decision. deal of confidence from the right kind BD I like to read some of the literature of fathering, are uncles just as important on single parenting. So much of the to nieces as they are to nephews? And time, single parenting is equated with

similarly, can aunts contribute just as inadequate parenting. But significant much to nephews as to nieces? research finds that children of single RM That’s a good question. I didn’t ask mothers can do just as well as and uncles directly about their relationships sometimes even better than other chil- with nieces, nor did I ask aunts about dren. Why? One possible answer is that their relationships with nephews, but this might be when aunts, uncles, grand- 1 | 34 SUMMER 20 1

VISION REUTERS MAGES: DANISH ISHMAIL; LUKE MACGREGOR; ENRIQUE MARCARIAN; DANISH SIDDIQUI; JORGE SILVA; DENIS SINYAKOV; CHAIWAT SUBPRASOM CHAIWAT DENIS SINYAKOV; DANISH SIDDIQUI; JORGE SILVA; parents and others in the family do uting in a positive way to society and to become motivated to step forward and the family, that’s a role that’s different fill the gap. Some of these kids might from the one their parents are modeling, actually end up with a more extended but not less important. network of active and engaged family GS If we find ourselves in a situa- relationships than some others who may tion where, for whatever reason, our be in a more insular nuclear family. “extra-nuclear” family members are not GS And of course, we’re assuming that involved in these roles—whether they the mentoring provided by aunts and choose not to be or are limited for other uncles is positive. But what is the effect reasons—what alternatives do we have? on overall family cohesiveness when the RM Chosen kin, certainly. There is no mentoring takes on a negative cast; for reason not to choose aunts and uncles instance, if aunts and uncles model inap- for children from among close friends. propriate behavior or badmouth family Supportive, extended kin relationships members rather than interacting in more of the kind we are talking about here are constructive ways? important for children, for adults, and BD Well, if they’re colluding with kids also for the wider community. against the parents, that’s certainly going BD That’s so true, and these layers of to be very bad for family cohesion. It relationships do have a huge impact. might be fun for their relationship at the moment, and it might give them a special connection for a time, but from a long- term perspective that kind of behavior is not going to be helpful for the family or for the individuals themselves. RM It’s true, sometimes aunts and uncles don’t model the ideal behavior, and sometimes this has negative effects, but sometimes it isn’t as negative as you might think. One nephew I interviewed said that what he learned from his uncle was that he didn’t think he wanted to get divorced a lot. Others learn that they don’t want to be alcoholics, or they learn other positive lessons from the negative examples of their aunts and uncles. But of course, the ideal situation would be that they’re modeling good behavior and giving examples of how nieces and nephews can live their lives. BD Yes, and one of the unique con- tributions that single aunts and uncles can make is simply to provide examples of other options for being successful. If they can see a single aunt or uncle living a full life as a single person and contrib-

“ Supportive, extended kin relationships of the kind we are talking about here are important

for children, for adults, and also 1 | 35 for the wider community.”

ROBERT M. MILARDO SUMMER 20 1

VISION