INTERVIEW WITH MR. ELMER BENSON Appleton, Minnesota Jo Antonson

Q. Mr. Benson, can you give a little bit of information about your family background such as if you have lived in Appleton all your life?

Yes, I have lived in Appleton all my life, in fact I was born in the house where I am now living, and my parents both came from Norw~y.

Q. What was it like living in Appleton at the time when you were young?

Well, of course I though it was interesting, exciting and rather pleasant time, my youth.

Q. Politically how would you categorize Appleton, Swift County, and West Central Minnesota in general?

Well, I think it's experiencE:Jichange of course. Early in my life I think Appleton and Swift County were predominantly Republican and conservative. Later it changed, during the period of the Non-Partisan League when it be­ came predominantly liberal and in favor of the Non-Partisan League and later the Farmer-Labor Party.

Q. Could you give a little bit about your personal history? I know that you went to law school, were certified as a lawyer, worked in the bank; may­ be you can give a brief chronology.

Well, after law school I went into the army in the first World War, and when I came back I came to Appleton and I worked in a bank for a while and had an interest in a clothing store, and later an interest in another bank. I always kept and continued to have a reasonable interest in politics. I was appointed by Governor Olson, Securities Conunission of the state, later Bank Commissioner and then later he appointed me to the United States Senate. And then in 1936 I was elected Governor.

Q. And then you were active politically in the Farmer-Labor Party?

Yes, I've always been active in the Farmer-Labor Party. Until about 23 years ago I was taken ill with encephalit is, sleeping sickness, and since that time I have been wholly inactive, but not only in politics but inactive in business as well.

Q. I find it interesting that you always seem to return to Appleton, you must really like the area and the community?

Yes, I have always had a real interest in Appleton, of course my wife was also a native of Appleton, she was born just a short distance from here, that is in the village.

Q. And you family is still living around here too?

1 Page 2

Yes, my wife lived on a fann for a while when she was a young girl, went to a country school, and now my son holds the farm that her grandfather and grandmother homesteaded and built up, and he lives there. And our daughter lives just a short distance away at Ortonville, Minnesota, Mrs. Robert Pflueger.

Q. Were you a member of the Non-Partisan League before you j oined the Farmer-Labor Party?

Yes, I was reasonably active in the Non-Partisan League before the Fa~er­ Labor Party came into existence.

Q. Was that a strong movement here in West Central Minnesota?

Yes, it was. It was, it originated of course, in North Dakota, but it became very powerful here in Western Minnesota.

Q. What sort of platform ••• ?

Well, one of the big things was they were opposed to war. They were also active against t he grain trusts, the milling trusts you might say, of Minne­ apolis. In North Dakota they became more powerful than they did here, they gotcontrol of both houses of the Legislature, the Governorship, and both United States Senators. There they established a state-owned flour mill, a state-owned central bank, a state insurance business, and they became very powerful. They were never that successful in Minnesota.

(54--5 minutes)

Q. Was there anything against the mill here in Appleton?

No, I don't think so. I don't think there was any feeling against small industry like the mill here. It was primarily against the milling industry in Minneapolis, I think. Q. And then was it that the Non-Partisan League just kind of changed into the Farmer-Labor Party?

Yes, I think so. In North Dakota the Non-Partisan League took control of the Republican Party. In this state they were not successful in that, they tried it but it wasn't too successful, and so they entered into the Farmer-Labor movement. That is, they had the working people's Non-Partisan League and the fanner's Non-Partisan League, and they joined and formed the Farmer­ Labor Party.

Q. Where was that party originated from, right here in Minnesota?

Yes, I think so. The first convention was held in St. Paul.

Q. About when was this?

I'm not sure that I know my dates, but I think it was about 1922. Page 3

Q. It was that early. What sort of activities were you active in, in the Non-Partisan League?

Oh, my interest there was purely local. I knew many of the active people in the Non-Partisan League and knew them all the rest of my life. But I didn't take a real active part in that movement.

Q. Was it active locally, however?

Of yes, it was very active.

Q. Rallies, speeches?

Yes, big picnics at that time were held and had outside speakers like, well, I remember Townley speaking here and Governor Frazier speaking here and Senator Burton Wheeler of Montana, many others.

Q. You mentioned Townley, was that the same man who was active during your ••• ?

Yes, A. C. Townley, he was the president of the Non-Partisan League.

Q. And then he went on to join the Fanner-Labor Party?

Yes, he did; he was reasonably active in the Farmer-Labor Party although I don't think he was ever completely sold on that, he probably was so successful in the Non-Partisan League he probably didn't •••

Q. Well, that's understandable. Last time we talked you mentioned there was a Farmer-Labor Party and a Farmer-Labor Association, could you go into the differences between the two?

Yes, the Farmer-Labor Party was the legal organization, established under the law, and the Farmer-Labor Association was a voluntary organization that, well, you held membership in it. I don 1,t recall what the membership fee was, it wasn't large, and the Fanner-Labor Association had county organizations, and in the cities like Minneapolis, St. Paul, and Duluth, they had ward organizations and they were active during and between campaigns, between elections. They owned a newspaper, weekly newspaper, that had a large circulation throughout the state. It was a educational organization primarily.

Q. The Association?

Yes, I think that could be said.

Q. An interesting way to note the differences. Why did you join the Fairmer­ Labor Party; did you think it was stronger than the Non-Partisan League?

Oh, I think most people here who organized the Farmer-Labor Party thought it was the natural thing to do. They weren't satisfied with either the Democratic Party or the Republican Party and they wanted a new party, a third party.

(144--10 minutes) Page 4

Q. Oh, so they entered in with the knowledge that they would be a. third party?

Yes, definitely.

Q. Were you one of the organizers of the Farmer-Labor Party here?

Well, I suppose I was, that's a long time ago. Yes, I think it could be said that I was active from the beginning, yes.

Q. Now were you active locally at first?

Yes, I was, yes, I was active locally and I attended state conventions, but mostly representing a local group or local organization.

Q. So how did you then become state known state-wide?

I suppose I'd have to give credit to Governor Olson who appointed me Securities Commissioner, and Bank Connnissioner, and later United States Senator. I'm sure that I wasn't well-known tmtil that time.

Q. How did he come to know you, this wasn't clear in your biography?

Well, I suppose he knew I was supporting him for one thing, and that wasn't common for a small-town businessman to be supporting the Farmer-Labor candidate. Q. No. I found it a first a little bit different to note that you favored some programs that businessmen of smaller communities were violently opposed to. So you got to know Governor Olson and he was a Fanner-Laborite also?

Yes, that's true.

Q. What was the area Farmer-Labor Party like? Was it a big organization that held picnics or was it like you noted, that the newspaper was primarily educational? Of course the newspaper couldn't have existed unless they had held these meet­ ings, both on the township scale, the county scale and even the region. There were large meetings in the beginning. We didn't have the radio or television in those days, that was the only way [meetings] of communicating with the people. So we had many, many large gatherings, mostly picnics as I recall it. At least the largest of the meetings were on the picnic level.

Q. Now was say Swift County pretty much Farmer-Labor Party?

Yes, very much so.

Q. How about the entire West Central Minnesota area?

That's pretty much true. The whole West Central Minnesota. Yes, Chippewa County, Kandiyohi County, I remember well those two counties and the whole West Central Minnesota area quite predominantly. P~e5

Q. Would you say you were helped by the Willmar paper?

Oh, I am sure I was. I'm sure I was. Senator Victor Lawson who was the editor and primarily the owner of the paper was always a supporter of mine, before that I was a supporter of his too. And I always was a supporter of Victor Lawson.

Q. Was he a Farmer-Laborite?

Yes he was, and a very fine one. Before that he'd been, well, he'd been a Prohibitionist and was active in the Prohibition Party, prohibition movement, and even before that he was interested in the Populist movement. And he was a very fine state senator, a very fine edior.

Q. He was active for a long time? He was a state senator? Yes.

Q. What influence did West Central Minnesota in the Famer-Laborite movement play in the state-wide scene?

(218--15 minutes)

Well, they were ce~tainly active in the movement. I remember Tony Welsch of Glencoe was the state chairman for many years in the Farmer-Labor Association. And Dave Evans was from West Central Minnesota. He was active, very active. And Dr. Fritche of New Ulm was our candidate for governor. He was active. There were many others, but I just don't think of them. I always think of Senator Lawson, Victor Lawson, of Willmar. He was very, very active.

Q. What sort of platform would you sayWestCentral Minnesota or Swift County would like to see enacted in the state government?

At that time you mean. Q. Yes, at that time.

Well, like other comities that were active in the Non-Partisan League and the Farmer-Labor Party they were, one important thing I mentioned before, opposed to war, they were opposed to monopolies of all kinds, with special emphasis on the railroads and the milling industries and the farm: implement monopoly.

Q. Yes, I can see how all those would affect the region, especially like the railroad which was so important, for example, for their shipping.

Yes, most people thought their rates were excessive at that time.

Q. And one of the things that you did during your tenn of office was to work to lower some of these things?

That's true, yes. Page 6

Q. Successful or not you tried? Going beyond just the local Farmer-Labor activities you ~~d -acte~d, the state conventions and you knew many of th~ members. Didn't you become a member of the state committee?

Yes, I suppose I was on the state committee. Yes.

Q. And then after you_were Governor of course, you played an important role for a long time after (in the party] ? How about your campaigni ng in the area? Did you devote a lot of time to campaigning here?

Well, I suppose you'd say I did. I had two keynote speeches here in Appleton. We had special trains that came out from St. Paul and Minneapolis. But y. ~s, I campaigned in all the cotmties arotmd here.

Q. Your big kick-off was here in Appleton?

Here in Appleton, yes.

Q. Would you like to describe that?

Well, both meetings were held in the Appleton Armory. There was a large crowd there and they came not only from this area but from some distrance. I know I met many of my friends from other parts of the state there at that time.

Q. This was in 193--?

1936 and 1938.

Q. Both years you had your kick-off rally here?

'lhat's right.

Q. And Appleton probably very much enjoyed t hat too? Well, I presume so.

Q. It brought a lot of excitement to the town?

Yes.

Q. And then after you were elected Governor and even as Senator, what sorts of things did you work for for West Central Minnesota?

Well, one thing I emphasized, I wanted higher taxes on iron ore. The United States Steel Corporation had dominated ore in our state for so long; I wanted higher taxes on iron ore, they were taking out thousands of tons of ore every year and they of course co,uld never be replaced, so I thought the mining in­ terests had never paid their fair share of the taxes. But I was not very successful in increasing the tax, at least not to the extent that I wanted it increased. We increased it, of course, but not to the extent I wanted it and the reason for that of course was, we never had control of the state Senate. We controlled the House at that time. And I wanted to increase income Page 7

taxes both on corporations and individuals, especially in the higher brackets. We were sanewhat successful in that. Not as successful as I'd like to have been, but we accomplished something. And after all taxation is the really important issue in state government. There isn't much else to be considered.

(306--20 minutes)

Q. How about in terms of the New Deal and the different programs set up under that. Did a lot of them affect this area?

Yes, they did. And we generally supported the New Deal and Roosevelt, Frank­ lin Roosevelt. WPA did a lot of good in this part of the s t ate and all over the state. It wasn't, I know, many people criticized it, I think unjustly. And of course the AAA [Agricultural Adjustment Act], the triple A was an excellent program and it's continued almost up until now. It's being some­ what destroyed now, but it's done good.

Q. And ·t hat was important for this area?

Oh very important, for this part of the state.

Q. To help people keep their farms?

Yes, it helped them keep their farms by giving them a support price for the things they produced.

Q. I would see how that would be important. The Farmer's Holiday movement came before this?

No, during that period. It was very active during the thirties. Yes, very active.

Q. Did you take a stand on that at all?

Yes, I supported it very enthusiastically. And it was very strong in this part of the state, in fact the state chairman, John Bush, was from Kandiyohi Cotmty. And there were many very active leaders from this part of the state in the state movement. Harry Haugland of Watson I recall is one who was very, very active, and an excellent organizer.

Q. Could you please outline a bit what the Farm Holiday Movement was? Well, one thing, of course, and an important thing was they were protesting the foreclosure of farm mortgages and in many instances they actually stopped the foreclosure of mor-tgages., and brought about compromises in the payment or the refinancing of the mortgages. And they were of course, protesting the unreasonably low prices for all farm commodities at that time. And I think they were quite successful. Q. Didn't, during you administration, you do some things too, noting the low prices for farmers? Page 8

Yes, I recall one thing, when the Federal Government was, because - of the drought, buying cattle. I thought the price they wanted to pay for the cattle was unreasonably low. I remember Governor Barry of South Dakota and Dean Coffman of the University of Minnesota, it seemed to me for some reason, [they] wanted to keep prices the government paid for cattle down. I don't know why they took that position but they did. And my position was that we should try to get as high a price for the cattle as we could get. And through Governor Olson and Harry Hopkins of the WPA, we were successful in raising it, as I recall, a couple of dollars per head.

(371--25 minutes)

Q. And that was important at the time? Yes, yes it certainly was.

Q. The people in this area do a lot of stock raising?

Yes, we have a large creamery here here, and people are more and more going into livestock; cattle and hogs, and dairy cattle too.

Q. You had a fight, sort of, with the middle man, is that it?

Well, I really don't know about that. We, the co-ops or I suppose you'd call the co-op elevator and the co-operative oil station, the co-operative creamery heading that movement, taking an interest in w~at the farmer buys and sells. That way we eliminated some of the extra costs.

Q. Was the co-op trend part of you Farmer-Labor platform?

Oh yes, the Farmer-Labor Party supported the co-op and the co-operative move­ ment in almost every way. Right here, I should mention that A. J. McGuire, who organized the Land O'Lakes Creameries, is from here. His parents had a farm north of here and he was born there and took an active interest in his farm right up until his death. He used to come here and spend a week or two at a time working on the farm. I think A. J. McGuire was probably the greatest, and finest person this part of the state has produced.

Q. That's quite an interesting statement to make. How did the area react to your second and your successive c,ampaigns after that? Were they as much in favor of your platform and your ideas as they had been earlier? No, I think not, I think not. There seemed to be change, and I think since that people have become more and more conservative. So I've, I would find myself in ••• and I think the Party itself has become more conservative, so I find myself in disagreement with my own party.

Q. How did you stand on the Democratic Party and the Farmer-Labor Party merger?

I supported that, yes. I supported that.

Q. Hoping they would stay liberal? Page 9

Yes, I thought so. We thought it was necessary in order to support the Roosevelt [re-election], Franklin Roosevelt. In fact, the President thought it was important too. I thought it was important and a good thing then, I think it was a mistake now.

Q. Why do you call it a mistake? Because they turned towards conservatism?

Yes, I think they've gone, it's not, it isn't any longer a Farmer-Labor Party, it's a Democratic Party I think, even though the name is Democratic Farmer-Labor.

Q. Did you remain active after the merger?

Yes, I remained acti ve up until the time I was taken sick in 1948, 1 49.

Q. And then did you also keep working on you, you had a business out here.

I have farms, yes. I have farm real estate, yes.

Q. And you kept active in both of these up until ••• ?

Yes, until, up until that time. In '48 I gave up everything.

(440--30 minutes)

Q. Back to the Democratic Farmer-Labor Party merger. You tho,ught that they merged primarily because of F.ranklin Roosevelt?

Yes, and I think there was a decreasing interest in the Farmer-Labor Associ­ ation, which was our educational organization. And our paper seemed to be attracting less and less interest. So we though at that time it was a good thing to merge with, with the two parties. Right there I should mention too, I mentioned Victor, Senator Lawson, Victor Lawson, before, I'm going to men­ tion him again. Senator Victor Lawson and Susie Stageberg of Red Wing were the only two people who voted against the merger. Probably been good if I hadn't been so enthusiastic for the merger.

Q. You regret it now?

Yes I do_, I do.

Q. That's interesting. So the Farmer-Labor Party which started out with the purpose of being a third party and hopefully gaining control of the state. Do you look on it as it continued to move forward or this is a step backward?

Well, I think it's a step backward, probably that's not the right term to use. I certainly prefer the present Democratic Farmer-Labor Party to the Republican Party. And, they're not as conservative as the Republican Party, but they're not as progressive as I'd like to see. Q. What sorts of things would you like to see them being more progressive in?

Well, for instance, I think I could best explain that by thinking of the last session of the Legislature. From what I've read, if I had been active I would Page 10

have liked to have seen them stop the mining company from dwnping 67 thousand tons of waste into Lake Superior every day. I would like to have seen them take over, have the state take over the wholesale liquor business. I would have liked to have seen them elect progressive supporters of the Democratic Farmer-Labor Party to the Minnesota University Board of Regents, they didn't do that. Then some of the things that I wouldn't want them to do, I would be opposed to their passing the ridiculous anti-abortion bill that they passed, resolution rather. That was going back, seems to me stepping back into about the eighteenth or nineteenth century. I guess that's enough about that.

Q. How did you feel about the sales tax when it came in?

I didn't, I opposed it, yes.

Q. You opposed it during you tenn of office?

Yes, yes.

Q. Could we step back to things I've though of that I've missed. I don't know how to pronounce his name, but Hjalmer?

Oh Hjalmer, Hjalmer.

Q. Hj J lmer Pederson. Do you think that the, I don't know if you'd call it the rivalry or the feeling between you and him, kind of hurt the Farmer-Labor Party?

Oh, I'm sure it did. I'm sure it did. Yes.

(514--35 minutes)

Q. What were your main areas of conflict?

Well. as I recall it. when I first became an active political figure, state­ wide at least, they accused me of being too conservative, Hjalmer Pederson and his supporters did. And that I was a representative of the so-called Olson All-Party group. "The Kingmakers" I think he called them. Then later when I ran for re-election, then I was too radical. And I was, I really don't know what their purpose was.

Q. Do you think that the Fanner-Labor Party was, became very split into different factions?

Oh it definitely did, sure.

Q. And that hurt the Party?

Oh, of course it hurt it. Yes.

Q. And do you think that that could have been avoided in any way? Page 11

Well, it certainly could have been avoided if, if; I don't know how it could have been avoided but it certainly could have been. Certainly it was not something that had to be, I'm sure of that. I never though of myself as being too radical. In fact if anything, I was too conservative. And still think that.

Q. Yes. You were a great supporter and personal friend of Floyd B. Ol son also?

Yes, that's right.

Q. Do you think his death was one of the things that led towards the ••• ?

Oh I'm sure it did, yes. I'm sure it did. You said I was a supporter of Olson's, he was a supporter of me too. I suppose he did more for me than any other person. He appointed me Securities Commissioner, Bank Commissioner, and finally United States Senator. And that's an interesting story. I don't, I doubt if it's ever happened before, here or anyplace. Governor Olson ap­ pointed me to the United States Senate after the death of Tom Shaw without talking to me on the telephone or seeing me or talking to me in person. He just appointed me, that's it. I don't think that's ever happened in the United States before.

Q. He just decided you were going to be Senator?

I guess so.

Q. You became Senator. When you were in Washington, as senator, did you find that you had a lot of people from the home area or from Minnesota or West Central Minnesota who were pushing you to introduce bills?

No, I don't recall there was much of that. I think there was real interest in, in preserving the Minneapolis and St. Paul, St. Louis, Minneapolis, no the St. Louis railroad is that what they called it? I think so. Anyway, the Minneapolis-St. Louis Railroad. And we did stop them from dism~bering that. And local people out here of course were concerned, initiated it, and I carried it through. And later it became, it became one of the the, I think, one of the first railroads in the nation to be free of debt.

(592--40 minutes)

Q. That's interesting. How about when you were Governor. Was there a lot of pressure from your friends and just people from this area for political jobs and positions?

Well jobs were scarce in those days. Any job was pretty sought after of course. Those are the, it was during the Depression, and any kind of a job was sought after, so I suppose you could say there was pressure, yes. Q. A lot of the state jobs were appointments that you would make?

Yes, and just ordinary jobs too, like the highway jobs. Page 12

Q. Did you have any influence over WPA funds coming out to this area?

Oh some, some influence, but that was in the hands of the federal govern­ ment. I was a personal f r iend, I thought, of Harry Hopkins, the national administrator of WPA, but I don't remember having much influence with him in his appointments. So it was difficult. If we did succeed it was by going direct to him rather than working through the state administrator who we al­ ways thought was not friendly to the Farmer-Labor Party. I remember one project, the Lac Qui Parle, we called it the Lac Qui Parle Lake Project. It was very successful. And the federal government did a lot of work there. They erected two, three dams and did a lot of work. But I remember the execu­ tive council appropriating, I think it was fifty thousand dollars, to put the final touches on the Lac Qui Parle Lake Project by building in roads and planting trees and that sort of thing. And the federal government was going to put in a million dollars into that and we were putting in fifty thousand. But after I went out of office the executive council, the new executive coun­ cil, under Governor Harold Stassen, withdrew that fifty thousand so it was never, the project was never completed.

Q. That is disappointing. How did you react to the dismantling or the kind of closing down of many of the New Deal projects?

I thought it was a mistake of course. Yes, I thought it was a mistake.

Q. But you say things like the AAA have continued?

Yes, that's, that was a good program. The ever-normal granary support program is an excellent program, and it's continued in some, in some way right up to the present time. Right now they seem to be making an effort to do away with it, but ••• Q. Didn't you press for social security benefits or some sort of benefits for people of an older age, a monthly payment, even prior to the time of your • ? Yes, we've advocated that but I think the Farmer-Labor Party advocated that from the very beginning. Yes.

Q. And that certainly would help

Yes.

(666--45 minutes) Q. people in this area? Yes, it's been wonderful, now, of course. And always will be.

Q. Yes, you mentioned Senator Lawson from Willmar. Another man that I'd like to get a little bit on the record is Ole J. Kvale.

Oh yes.

Q. • the House Representative from Benson? Page 13

Yes. Reverend Olaf J. Kvale was a Lutheran minister both at Benson and here at Appleton. He was elected to the Congress and was an excellent representa­ tive. As I recall it, his first venture was to run against Congressman Andrew J. Volstead, who was known as the father of the Volstead Act, Prohibition Act, and he defeated Congressman Volstead in the primary, Republican primary. But he was removed by the Minnesota Supreme Cour t because he had made some kind of a statement about Volstead's religion or lack of religion, I've forgotten just what it was. But later he was elected as a Farmer-Laborite and was there for many years, until his death in fact.

Q. Now, did he die prior to your ••• ?

Yes, I've forgotten what year he died, but it was prior to my becoming Governor. I've forgotten what year he died. His son, who was his secretary or administrative assistant as they now call them, was elected to his office and was there for many years too. Ah, he was there until 1938.

Q. Do you think that Mr. Kvale, or Reverend Kvale, influenced you at all? Did you share some of the same ideas?

Well, I certainly agreed with most of the things he advocated. I certainly did, yes. I thought he was an excellent congressman. And if one quality he had, of course, was he was an excellent orator. So, yes, I agreed with him very much.

Q. Moving on to today, could you briefly summarize your activities at this time?

Well, I'm very inactive now, I don't attend large meetings, I have not accepted a speaking engagement for twenty-three years. I don't do any business, my son Thomas Benson, who is a farmer near here, takes care of all my affairs. So about the only thing I do is to read as much as I can, try to keep abreast of affairs.

Q. Occasionally write a leeter or two?

Yes, occassionally write a letter.

(736--50 minutes)

Q. Looking back on your many different political activities and contributions how do you view some of these? Say for instance as Governor, how do you look back on your term of office? Well, I don't think I would do things much differently than I did. I don't think I changed, I think the people changed. I regret very much that a little prosperify has seemed to change the thinking of the people, I don't know why it should. Right now for instance, I have a feeling that the best illustra­ tion of, or one of the best illustrations, of how conservative people have become is our failure to have a national health program. We're the only in­ dustrial nation in the world that doesn't have one. And medical and liospital costs in this country are prohibitive. They're dangerously so. I can see how hospital and medical bills could ruin not only young people but older people as well. Page 14

Q. Was the Farmer-Labor Party concerned with this?

Oh, I'm sure they were, yes, I'm sure they were. But you mentioned before about the merger, well the Farmer-Labor Party of course supported Roosevelt in most things he did but we disagreed with him too, very much. And I can see, I saw then, and I see now where there were many things he could have done and should have done that he didn't do. But, and one of them was to create a health program. Another one was to take over the railroads who were bankrupt at that time. Another thing he could have done was take over the Federal Reserve Bank system. There were many things that we didn't agree with Roosevelt, that he did or failed to do. But there were many things that he did that we supported.

Q. In terms of your administration what would you say are the highlights of it when you look back?

Well, I think the increase in the iron ore tax, the increase in the corporate and individual income taxes. They were the principal ones. In fact taxation is the important thing in city [state] government.

Q. I'm going back to when we talked last time. I think that you mentioned that you were very pleased with your's and Olson's administration for being so open to responses of the people?

(812--55 minutes)

Yes, I think, of course I am prejudiced in this opinion, but I think Olson's administration and my administration, the two Farmer-Labor administrations were the most democratic government any state has ever had. Certainly the most democratic government this state has ever had. And the reason for that was we had these county canmittees in the Fanner-Labor Association. And they were active, and they knew what they wanted and they didn't hesitate to let people know what they wanted, and in many instances, I hope I can say most instances, they got what they wanted, or an effort was made to give them what they wanted. So I think we had the most democratic government any state has ever had during that period.

Q. One of the bases of the Farmer-Labor Party was to be responsive to the people?

That's right. Q. Not the rich people, but the larger masses, the farmers and laborers?

That's right. Q. AFL or CIO, I don't completely understand. Well, at that time, that was a rather dangerous time for people politically. The AFL and the CIO were two organizations at that time and the AF of Land the CIO seemed to hate one another more than they hated the employers they Page 15

were supposed to be organiz~ng for or against. And that's another thing I think, now the AFL-CIO is one organization and they're pretty conservative. In fact, I think when you start paying labor leaders the salaries that some of the labor leaders are getting now they can't be labor leaders any more. When you pay then fifty or seventy-five thousand dollars a year and unlimited expense account and pensions of forty or fifty thousand dollars a year, they aren't labor leaders any more, they're big-businessmen.

Q. One last area I'd like to deal with is, from all the reading that you keep up on and are probably doing, how do you feel about West Central Minnesota politics? You've mentioned several times you thing that the DFL has become more conservative. Do you think this is true for the whole area?

Oh, I think so. I think, I'm quite sure it is. Even though for instance, they now for the first time in the history of the state they control both houses of the Legislature. Maybe that's one reason they were permitted or privileged to control both houses, because they are conservative, I don't know. But that's my opinion. They aren't, and the things I've enumerated to you a moment ago about what they should have done or didn't do in the Legislature, this session of the Legislature, is and I think they're probably many other illustrations.

Q. What about the future of say the DFL Party in this area? Do you think it's going to remain; do you think that kind of a conservatism is a trend, or do you see room for another third party "radical movement?"

I hope it becomes more progressive, yes, I hope so, but I haven't any way of knowing. In fact, I'm amazed every day of my life to know that the farmers aren't more aroused than they are today with prices the way they have been for the last twenty years. In fact I don't see how many of the farmers have held on this long. And that affects small businessmen in these smaller towns too. I don't consider any businessman in a town the size of Appleton or even larger towns as being anything but farmers because they're wholly dependent upon the farmer. Q. You are surprised at them •••

I'm amazed that they haven't become more progressive, and more radical if that is the term you want to use.

Q. Would you see another third party movement such as the Farmer-Labor Party coming into existence?

Oh, I don't think so. I wouldn't think so. I should think the thing would be to have progressive people take a more active part in the Democratic Farmer­ Labor Party.

Q. Can you think of anything offhand that I've forgotten or that you might like to add?

I think one thing I'd like to say, and that is we just got through talking about the labor movement. I think the one, the thing that's disgusting to me is the fact that the head of the AFL-CIO, George Meany was in favor of Page 16

this Vietnam war. Hysterically so. I can't conceive of, of sensibl e people in the labor movement supporting the Vietnam war. I can't understand farmers supporting it or any decent citizen supporting the Vietnam war.

Q. You've always been opposed to war?

(958--65 minutes)

I've always been opposed to war and I always will be. I think wars are, they are man-made. Of course we know that and they're made for a purpose. And that is to advance the interests of big corporations and people of great wealth and to control the young. For instance, I'm sure there wouldn't be any wars if you start drafting people at forty years of age rather than start­ ing them at eighteen. In fact that's what they ought to do, Congress ought to pass a law drafting people at age fort and not at eighteen. And they ought to also draft, when they draft men, they ought to draft wealth. You wouldn't have any wars if you did that. That's the best indication that they are made for, to promote the inter. of the great corporations and people of wealth.

Q. Am I correct that you went on the record as being against any kind of draft during peace time?

Yes, definitely so.

Q. And this has kind of reflected your attitude towards the church?

Yes, that's right. I think that most of the churches, all denominations, Protestant, Catholic and Jewish, they've, they haven't taken a good stand against war. Some leaders have taken an excellent stand, some of the religious leaders have been wonderful. But others haven't been so good.

Q. How did you react when they changed all the names of the streets here in Appleton as a result of, was it the second World War?

Well, I guess it was all right. I never really gave it much thought. No.

Q. I thought you might have some,thing to say, anti-war.

No, I never thought of that. I certainly have nothing against the boys that have had to sacrifice their lives. I haven't anything but sympathy for them and for their families.

Q. You are primarily against the •••

I am against the institution of war.

Q. The machinery by which the young men are forced That's right. That's right. Why I just noticed in today's paper some young fellow from some town in Minnesota is up at Camp Ripley and he's complaining and disgusted from, because he was in the army for two-and-a-half years and he thoughthe was through with it and still they made him go to camp again this

(80--70 minutes) Page 17

year. Well, right now they're talking about gas rationing, diesel fuel rationing, and fuel oil rationing and yet they're spending a lot of money to finance the military in their purchases of oil. They're getting all they want. All of which, in fact, I think the military establishment has become so powe·rful, it's running our government. When you spend, when you spend eighty billion dollars a year on the military, why it's ridiculous. And when the President of the United States, several of them, starting with Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, Truman, not Truman, yes Truman too, and Nixon, can carry on a war without the consent of Congress and kill thousands of our boys, wounding hundreds of thousands and spending billions and hundreds of billions for, without the vote of Congress, it's ridiculous. Shameful. Q. How did you react then when President Roosevelt; how did the Farmer-Labor Party or you yourself react when President Roosevelt, well after the bombing of Pearl Harbor and we had ••• ?

Well, of course after the bombing of Pearl Harbor I think the Farmer-Labor Party at that time supported the President of course. Up until that time we certainly were hesitant of course. We, at least I was, or up until, well, I don't know at what time I changed, but that war could have been avoided, I think. Right here I'd like to say this, John T. Bernard, a member of Congress from the 8th District, the first day he was in Congress, he voted against the embargo on arms to Democratic Spain. His was the only vot e. Well, if the Congress and if President Roosevelt had had the understanding that he had we probably could have avoided the second World War. Hitler and Mussolini wouldn't have been so anxious to go to war if we had supported De100cratic Spain rather than to destroy it. And that's what we did. John Bernard has cast the finest vote of any man in Congress then and since then.

Q. The 8th District is about where?

St. Louis County is the principal county, the biggest county.

Q. Well that places it a little. Northeastern Minnesota.

Q. This has been very interesting. I have certainly enjoyed both of my visits with you. Thank you Mr. Benson.