Thursday Volume 569 24 October 2013 No. 62

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Thursday 24 October 2013

£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2013 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 417 24 OCTOBER 2013 418

Dr Huppert: Arthouse cinemas such as the Cambridge House of Commons Arts Picturehouse are much smaller and completely different from massive chain multiplexes. Despite this, Thursday 24 October 2013 the Competition Commission wants to force the sale of the excellent Cambridge Arts Picturehouse. The Leader The House met at half-past Nine o’clock of the House said in response to a question I asked that “there is no cause for the Competition Commission to seek to PRAYERS intervene”.—[Official Report, 10 October 2013; Vol. 568, c. 314.] Will my right hon. Friend the Business Secretary talk to [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] the Competition Commission and encourage it to work on real local monopolies and not this issue? Vince Cable: As an avid cinema-goer and, indeed, Oral Answers to Questions someone who used to go to that cinema, I have some sympathy with my hon. Friend, but the process is this: BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS the Competition Commission has come to a resolution and the next step has to be to go to the Competition Appeal Tribunal. I suggest to my hon. Friend that, since The Secretary of State was asked— the Cambridge law faculty has some of the best minds Small Business in the country, including that of his predecessor, it may want to take on this issue on a pro bono basis. 1. Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con): What steps he is taking to support small businesses. Mark Pawsey: Having run a small business, I understand [900668] exactly the burden of regulation that small businesses 3. Nigel Adams (Selby and Ainsty) (Con): What steps have to deal with, and I know how pleased small businesses in Rugby are about the Prime Minister’s commitment to he is taking to support small businesses. [R] [900670] make this Government the first in history to cut the 4. Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD): What steps overall amount of regulation. Will the Secretary of he is taking to support small businesses. [900671] State confirm that his Department will lead the efforts to cut burdens that hold back small businesses from 14. Mark Pawsey (Rugby) (Con): What steps he is growing and taking on more staff? taking to support small businesses. [900686] Vince Cable: We are totally committed to that task. The Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Under the red tape challenge—the one in, two out Skills (Vince Cable): We are doing more than ever to system that my colleague the Minister of State, Department support small business. More than 7,000 start-up loans for Business, Innovation and Skills, the right hon. Member have been drawn down since the scheme’s launch in for Sevenoaks (Michael Fallon) is leading admirably—we September 2012. Over the past year, UK Trade & estimate that we have probably already saved business Investment has helped 31,800 businesses to export, the about £1 billion a year, and there is a commitment to growth accelerator scheme has supported more than extend that process. 9,000 small businesses, and the regional growth fund has helped a further 3,000. Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab): What discussions Rehman Chishti: I am grateful to the Secretary of has the Secretary of State had with his Government State for that answer. Will he clarify how many businesses colleagues about the impact of energy prices on small have been backed by the Government’s start-up loan businesses? Does he support the Prime Minister’s call scheme, and are there any plans to extend it further? for a cut in green taxes? Does he support the call by my right hon. Friend the Member for Doncaster North Vince Cable: We estimate that something of the order (Edward Miliband) for a price freeze? Does he support of 7,000 start-up loans have been drawn down since the Sir John Major’s call for a windfall tax? Or is he in scheme’s launch in September 2012, a significant number favour of doing nothing at all? of them in the hon. Gentleman’s constituency. To sustain it, we have made available an extra £34 million from Vince Cable: We have made it clear that doing nothing September, to bring the total to £151 million. is not an option. We fully understand the implications of rising energy costs for business, particularly energy- Nigel Adams: Business creation is on the up and intensive businesses. We have framed compensation unemployment is down by almost 30% in Selby and arrangements and payments have already been made Ainsty since the election. However, many small companies under the European Union emissions trading scheme, are struggling with crippling business rates. In some and state aid approval is now being sought for compensation cases, rates are almost the cost of the rent they are for the carbon price floor for energy-intensive companies. paying. What can the Government do to encourage local councils to engage with small businesses to assist David Simpson (Upper Bann) (DUP): What more can them with their rate costs? the Secretary of State do to encourage small businesses to apply for Government contracts? Vince Cable: The hon. Gentleman is right that the trend is a positive one. Half a million small businesses Vince Cable: A great deal has been done at central currently get rate relief and a third of a million pay no Government level to ensure that we reach our target rates at all. Under recent changes whereby local councils of 25% of Government contracts going to small and give discounts, as they are now encouraged to do, half medium-sized enterprises. Considerable progress has been of that will come from the Government. made in reducing the bureaucracy of pre-qualification 419 Oral Answers24 OCTOBER 2013 Oral Answers 420 questionnaires. The problem remains at the decentralised only 372 opted out of the scheme. Therefore, 99.75% of level—local government, hospitals and so on. Efforts employees have accepted the shares that we offered will be made through legislation to simplify that process. them.

Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab): The No. 1 issue Mr Hollobone: Is not the number of posties who have for small businesses in my constituency is the high level opted out of the scheme remarkably low? Despite the of business rates. I urge the Secretary of State and his threats of industrial action and union militancy, is it ministerial colleagues to support our proposal for a not clear that the vast majority of Royal Mail employees business rate cut, followed by a freeze. have accepted the invitation from Her Majesty’s Government to take part in the biggest employee share Vince Cable: As I have said, there is an extensive scheme of any major privatisation? programme of business rate relief, which extends to half a million companies. That is a very good programme, Vince Cable: Yes, it is a very positive story. The but there is an issue with how we will continue to pay engagement of almost every employee of Royal Mail is for it, given the many other claims on Government extremely encouraging. I seem to remember that under spending. the last Labour Government we lost in the order of 2 million working days through industrial action in Paul Blomfield (Sheffield Central) (Lab): May I press every single year. This is a big change for the better. the Secretary of State further on business rates? Does he not recognise that in his constituency, as in mine, Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): May businesses are raising the issue of the rising cost of I remind the Secretary of State that before this privatisation business rates? Businesses in my constituency welcome every one of my constituents had a share in Royal Mail? the proposal to save them £450 by cutting and freezing It has been revealed that only a tiny number of people business rates. Would that not be welcomed in his in most constituencies now have any shares at all and constituency? that the Prime Minister’s hedge fund friends own a lot of them. Vince Cable: I am aware of this problem in the town centres of my constituency, and I am sure that it is a Vince Cable: On the contrary, the share register is problem across the country. I repeat that there is an dominated by large long-term institutional investors, extensive programme of business rate relief. The most of whom hold the savings of millions of our Government have given local councils the freedom to citizens. offer discounts on business rates and we provide a 50:50 matching contribution. Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab): Labour is the party (PC): This afternoon, I am due to meet for lunch that of small business—[Laughter.] Conservative Members great Welsh export and one of the world’s best rugby may laugh, but their party believes that a business that players, George North. As the Secretary of State knows, has 300 members of staff is not that large. That shows George North was bought by Northampton from the how out of touch they are. Some 99% of businesses are mighty Scarlets at a very reasonable price during smaller than that. the summer. Does he think that the hedge funds feel the same as Northampton Saints, because they have acquired Under this Government, 1.5 million businesses have the Royal Mail crown jewels at a cut price? seen business rates rise by an average of £2,000. Our plan to shelve the Government’s 1% corporation tax cut Vince Cable: No; in fact, the offer was framed in such in 2015 and direct all that money towards reducing a way as to ensure that the shares were acquired business rates has won support among organisations predominantly by long-term institutional investors. A from the Federation of Small Businesses to the British few hedge funds are involved and, indeed, some hedge Retail Consortium. Does the Secretary of State not funds take a long-term view. realise that many businesses are being crippled by business rates? Why does he not just follow our lead and end the Seema Malhotra (Feltham and Heston) (Lab/Co-op): business rate nightmare now? Many small businesses and consumers across the country rely on local delivery offices such as the one in Feltham Vince Cable: The hon. Gentleman seems to have to pick up parcels and important letters. Will the Secretary forgotten the record of the last Government. I distinctly of State confirm that there is nothing to prevent Royal remember that in one of the last pieces of legislation Mail from selling off its local properties across the that I dealt with in the previous Parliament, the Government country and moving them to out-of-town locations that started to impose business rates on empty property. will be far more difficult to reach? That was a few months before the collapse in the commercial property market. Vince Cable: I think I know the sorting office that the Royal Mail hon. Lady is talking about, because it is the one that serves my constituency. It was rebuilt and re-equipped 2. Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): How many three years ago, I believe, so it is wildly improbable that and what proportion of employees of Royal Mail the Royal Mail will now want to sell it. opted out of the allocation of free shares. [900669] Adults: Skills The Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (Vince Cable): Of the approximately 150,000 5. Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con): What employees who were eligible for free employee shares, steps he is taking to improve adults’ basic skills. [900672] 421 Oral Answers24 OCTOBER 2013 Oral Answers 422

The Minister for Skills and Enterprise (Matthew to participate. Improving technologies in teaching will Hancock): It is our priority that all adults throughout help, but we must ensure that there is access to basic England have the English and maths that they need to skills throughout the country. build successful careers and support their families. We have put English and maths at the heart of our schools Green Investment Bank reforms and fully fund basic English and maths courses for adults who lack those skills. 6. David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con): What projects will be eligible for funding from the Green Mr Buckland: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. Will Investment Bank. [900674] he join me in congratulating Swindon organisations such as Uplands Educational Trust and Enterprise Works The Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and that are providing training and support opportunities Skills (Vince Cable): The UK Green Investment Bank to adults with disabilities? What plans does he have to has a total of £3.8 billion of funding to finance green ensure that that provision can be enhanced and increased? projects in sectors within its approved remit, and to date it has committed £714 million, including for waste Matthew Hancock: I am delighted to hear about recycling facilities, energy from waste plant, offshore creative enterprises such as Enterprise Works and Uplands wind farms and energy efficiency projects. Educational Trust in Swindon. I know that for many people with disabilities, school or adult education is a David Mowat: I thank the Secretary of State. It is rewarding experience that helps them gain life skills. My impressive how quickly the bank has got up and running. hon. Friend is a passionate and effective champion of However, the scope envisaged during the Committee that, and I look forward to talking to him in more detail stage of the Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Bill, about those enterprises and others to ensure that we and indeed in the Bill’s green purpose, included low-carbon support disabled people as much as possible. industries such as the nuclear supply chain. I understand that that did not get EU state aid clearance. Are we Mr Liam Byrne (Birmingham, Hodge Hill) (Lab): I going to appeal against that so that we can go back to know that the Minister will be as concerned as I am that the original mandate? unemployment among young adults is still more than 1 million, and that the number of apprenticeships among Vince Cable: The hon. Gentleman is right that European adults under the age of 19 is now below the level in state aid restrictions mean that the sectors involved are 2010. Can he assure the House that in the next set of narrowly defined, and I understand his concern for figures the number of apprentices under the age of the nuclear industry supply chain. However, following 19 will increase? While he is at it, will he explain why he the announcement of the new reactor this week, and the voted against Labour’s plans to use the power of public commitment by the companies involved to provide more procurement to increase precisely those vitally needed than 50% of procurement to British companies, the apprenticeships? nuclear supply chain has a really excellent future anyway.

Matthew Hancock: Of course we do use public Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/ procurement to increase the number of apprenticeships, Co-op): The UK Green Investment Bank has indeed not least in Crossrail, which is the largest public procurement been a success so far and part of its success is in and construction project in Europe at the moment. It is bringing in co-investors from the private sector for true that we had to take action to remove some low-quality projects that it supports. Although I do not expect the provision in the 16 to 19 space when we introduced Secretary of State to admit this, he will know that the rules to ensure that every apprenticeship was a job, Prime Minister’s announcement yesterday of a review which it had not previously been. I would have thought of green taxes has already thrown up uncertainty about that the right hon. Gentleman would welcome the long-term investment in the green economy. Does the improvement in quality. We also have a programme in Secretary of State recognise that if the Government are hand to increase the numbers. Participation in prepared to give long-term price guarantees to new apprenticeships is at the highest level ever, which I nuclear, they should also give long-term security to the would have thought all parties would be able to support. whole green economy?

Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD): Young Vince Cable: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his adults in north Northumberland who have left school positive comments. He is absolutely right: for every £1 without the basic skills to which the Minister referred the UK Green Investment Bank puts in, something in do not have ready access to further education, because the order of £4 of private funding goes in parallel with there are no college facilities within a reasonable distance it. I agree that if we are going to get long-term investment of them. Will he work with potential providers to in renewable energy there has to be stability in policy. ensure that the gap is filled? Minimum Wage Matthew Hancock: I have visited Northumberland college, which serves my right hon. Friend’s constituency, 7. Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): What changes he is and it is an impressive institution. Of course, it is planning to make to the national minimum wage. important to ensure that adult skills are available throughout [900677] our country, and as the recent OECD study showed, spreading English and maths skills is vital to ensuring The Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and not only that we can improve our competitiveness as a Skills (Vince Cable): I am asking the Low Pay Commission country but, most importantly, that we can allow everybody to consider what conditions would be needed to allow 423 Oral Answers24 OCTOBER 2013 Oral Answers 424 the minimum wage to rise in the future by more Mr Willetts: I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend than current conditions allow and without damaging and congratulate him on his commitment, particularly employment. to education as it affects Liverpool.

Robert Halfon: As the Government are supporting Mr Speaker: I call Mr Simon Hughes, from the hard-working people, does my right hon. Friend agree distant territory of Southwark and Bermondsey. that we should help lower earners more by raising the minimum wage—by adding regional minimum wage Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) top-ups, increasing the threshold for national insurance (LD): When I visited Liverpool to do some work for the or taking people who get the minimum wage out of tax Government on access to education, I was clear that altogether? one thing that students there wanted was the opportunity for scholarships to help with living costs. Will the Vince Cable: I commend the hon. Gentleman for the Minister update us on the roll-out of the scholarship work he has done on low pay. Indeed, I think he is a programme for young people from deprived backgrounds member of the Prospect union and has campaigned for in Liverpool and elsewhere? the work force in his constituency. I think that the best way forward is the one that we have chosen: lifting the Mr Willetts: We have been able to help people from personal allowance, which has so far taken 2.7 million deprived areas in Liverpool and across the country people out of tax. As a consequence, almost 40% of through the fact that the combination of the value of adult minimum wage workers have seen real increases in the maintenance grant and the maintenance loan is their take-home pay since 2010. higher now for people from poorer backgrounds applying to university than it ever was before. University Students: Liverpool Royal Mail 8. Steve Rotheram (Liverpool, Walton) (Lab): What steps he is taking to increase the number of students from Liverpool who go to university. [900678] 9. Karl Turner (Kingston upon Hull East) (Lab): What assessment he has made of the effect on postal The Minister for Universities and Science (Mr David services of the privatisation of Royal Mail. [900679] Willetts): We have placed increased responsibilities on universities to widen access. Universities and colleges The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, plan to spend more than £700 million a year by 2017 on Innovation and Skills (Jo Swinson): The universal postal broadening access, and our highly successful student service is protected under the Postal Services Act 2011. finance tour is running again this year, providing students The service is unaffected by the sale of Royal Mail and and parents with information about the student finance can be changed only with the agreement of Parliament. available.

Steve Rotheram: The Minister will be aware that we Karl Turner: Does the Minister share my concern that face a difficult task in attracting people from deprived following the fire sale of Royal Mail, private hedge fund areas in Liverpool to universities and that we also face a shareholders will no longer be prepared to fund the challenge in retaining students who have graduated not-for-profit universal service obligation? from higher education institutions. What steps does he plan to take to make it more attractive for graduates to Jo Swinson: The hon. Gentleman should be aware stay in the city of their learning? that that is not an option for Royal Mail, which remains the universal service obligation provider, and it is the Mr Willetts: We are seeing an increase in the percentage duty of Ofcom as regulator to ensure that it complies of people from deprived areas who are applying to with that obligation. If any future changes are to be university and last year saw a national record overall. made, it is up to Parliament to agree to it, and I do not The figures in the Liverpool local authority area also see that happening. In fact, we go beyond minimum EU show continuing increases in the percentage of people requirements in having a six-day-a-week universal service from poorer backgrounds applying to go to university. delivery. Of course, one of the great attractions of having a leading university in the city is that many graduates Ian Swales (Redcar) (LD): Does the Minister share then stay. my regret at some of the scare stories that were put round by campaigners against privatisation, and will Several hon. Members rose— she confirm that the Ministry of Defence pays for Royal Mail post overseas to forces, not Royal Mail? Mr Speaker: The question is purely on the subject of students from Liverpool, not elsewhere in the north-west. Jo Swinson: My hon. Friend is quite right to say that If the question is about Liverpool, it is in order. If it is it is unhelpful when scare stories are put out. For not about Liverpool, it is out of order. example, free services for the blind are included in the universal obligation and will continue. As he rightly Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) (Con): Will the says, free mail for the armed forces is funded separately Minister join me in welcoming the fact that 16% of by the Ministry of Defence, which will continue with students from Liverpool go on to the top Russell Group that. There is no need for people to be scared by those universities, making it one of the top 10 local authorities kinds of stories, which were unfortunately put out by in the country? some critics of what is happening. 425 Oral Answers24 OCTOBER 2013 Oral Answers 426

Tom Blenkinsop (Middlesbrough South and East Vince Cable: I agree that there should not be any Cleveland) (Lab): The Minister needs to talk to her doubt about our continued membership, but evidence colleague, the Minister for Skills and Enterprise, the suggests that so far that has not done any harm. Britain hon. Member for West Suffolk (Matthew Hancock), as remains very much the No. 1 country in Europe for well as her hon. Friend the Member for Redcar (Ian inward investment, which last year rose by 22%, despite Swales). When I raised with the Minister for Skills and falling globally by 18%. Enterprise the issue of the USO being reduced from six to five days, he said at the time that that would need Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): Is it true that what primary legislation on the Floor of the House. He later businesses want in relation to the EU is free trade? wrote to inform me that it would need only a statutory Given that we have a £45 billion a year trade deficit with instrument to be passed upstairs for that to change. the EU, is it not perfectly obvious that whether we Would the Minister like to correct the record on behalf remain in or out, we will keep free trade? Does the of her colleague? Secretary of State seriously believe that BMW,Mercedes and such companies will say, “Well, it’s the principle Jo Swinson: The Postal Services Act 2011, which the that’s important. We don’t want to export to the UK House voted for, puts in place a universal service obligation anymore.”? of six days a week. It is therefore something over which Parliament has control. I do not know whether the hon. Vince Cable: The car companies the hon. Gentleman Gentleman is suggesting that were there to be a Labour has cited, and indeed others, particularly the Japanese, Government again, they would in some way threaten have made it clear that they expect Britain to remain in that universal service, but I assure the House that the the single market, and they attach enormous importance Government are certain that the universal service obligation to being able to frame its rules. should stay as it is. Bridget Phillipson (Houghton and Sunderland South) Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con): (Lab): The Secretary of State knows the vital role What steps is the Minister taking to ensure that rural Nissan plays in the north-east economy, but do not communities continue to be served well by the postal recent comments from Nissan on the importance of our service, post privatisation? ongoing membership of the EU, and the potential impact of any tariffs if we are not in the EU, underline Jo Swinson: The universal service is particularly valuable the risk and uncertainty the Government’s policy is to rural areas, where it can be a lifeline. That is why it is creating? important for it to be entrenched in the Postal Services Act 2011. For other postal services such as access to Vince Cable: Nissan has been very clear on the posting parcels and so on, the Government have promised subject—on its behalf, the Japanese Government have to ensure that we maintain the network of more than made exactly the same point that they do not want the 11,500 post offices. That is in stark contrast to the re-imposition of tariffs. However, there is no evidence closure of thousands of post offices across the country so far that our policy is discouraging Nissan. Its investment by the previous Government, including in rural areas. in the UK continues at a high level. I continue to We are ensuring that people across the country have welcome that. good access to postal services. Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): Is the House EU Membership seriously going to believe that the Secretary of State believes that, if this country were not in the EU, we would not have a free trade agreement with it? Does he 10. Jonathan Reynolds (Stalybridge and Hyde) (Lab/ expect the House to believe him? Co-op): What representations he has received from manufacturers on the case for continued UK Vince Cable: I know the hon. Gentleman’s position, membership of the EU with regard to their business but that is the not the issue. The issue is certainty. There and investment plans. [900680] is a lot of risk in the business world. Reopening the matter creates massive uncertainty for employers and The Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and makes it even more difficult for them to invest. Skills (Vince Cable): Ministers and the Department frequently receive representations from manufacturers, Mr Iain Wright (Hartlepool) (Lab): The Secretary of and others, in support of continued UK membership of State has referred to the publication from EEF, the the European Union and the single market. A recent manufacturers organisation. The report states that 85% example is the report by the Engineering Employers of EEF members said that membership of and staying Federation, “Manufacturing: Our future in Europe”. in the EU is good for their businesses. My hon. Friend the Member for Houghton and Sunderland South (Bridget Jonathan Reynolds: Manufacturing is vital to my Phillipson) mentioned the comments of the chief operating constituency, the country, and to increasing exports and officer of Nissan, who has said that the threat of import getting our economy back on stronger ground. Does tariffs between the UK and the rest of Europe in the the Secretary of State agree that the constant doubts event of an exit could be an “obstacle” to further cast over our relationship with the EU by Members of investment by the company in this country. Who has his Government are harmful to our manufacturing more influence over Britain’s manufacturing policy: industry, which wants certainty so that we can invest Britain’s manufacturers or the United Kingdom and grow for the future? Independence party? 427 Oral Answers24 OCTOBER 2013 Oral Answers 428

Vince Cable: It is fair to say that our manufacturing city deals or local enterprise partnerships and the single companies have a great deal more influence and we local growth fund, supporting initiatives that help small agree with them. I would add one point: it is not just businesses to grow and provide more jobs is critical? about manufacturing. A recent survey by CityUK suggested that 60% of banks in London are here because we are Matthew Hancock: The Government are a passionate part of the single market. supporter of small businesses. The fact that 4.9 million businesses exist—a record number—is partly a response Beneficial Ownership to the improvement in the environment for small businesses, supported by LEPs and the skills system, which we have done so much to put in place. 11. Emily Thornberry (Islington South and Finsbury) (Lab): What plans he has to publish the Government’s Mr Graham Stuart (Beverley and Holderness) (Con): planned register of companies’ beneficial ownership. Our LEP around the Humber is supporting and wants [900681] investment by Siemens in Hull. Further to the question from my hon. Friend the Member for Warrington South The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, (David Mowat), will the Department do everything Innovation and Skills (Jo Swinson): The UK has committed possible to talk to the EU about changing the rules that to implement a central registry of company beneficial restrict the ability of the green investment bank to ownership information, accessible to law enforcement invest in great projects such as that with Siemens, which and tax authorities. We recognise the potential benefits are so important to our area? of making the information available publicly and have consulted on that. That consultation closed in September Matthew Hancock: Yes, of course. I thoroughly enjoyed and we are now analysing the responses. We will issue a my visit to my hon. Friend’s constituency. Many people Government response in due course. raised the issue of Siemens, which would invest not only in the UK, but, through the supply chain, in many small Emily Thornberry: The Prime Minister has expressed businesses. I will look in detail at what he says. his personal support for a public register and is supported in that by four former Labour Home Secretaries, the George Freeman (Mid Norfolk) (Con): May I British Bankers Association and anti-corruption non- congratulate the Government on the great news that governmental organisations, but, as my mum used to 102,000 new businesses were created last year, bringing say, fine words butter no parsnips. Will he take the the total to an all-time record of 4.9 million? Does the opportunity of the open government partnership summit, Minister agree that many first-time entrepreneurs and which I understand will happen later this month, to start-ups find that compliance with a whole raft of confirm that the Government will have an open and Government red tape, often designed in Europe and public register of beneficial ownership of companies? gold-plated in Whitehall, is a genuine barrier? Will he meet me and representatives of entrepreneurial start-up Jo Swinson: The hon. Lady is right to mention that companies to see what we might do to ease the burden the Prime Minister has shown a great deal of leadership on start-ups in particular? on that, not least at the G8 summit in June, where he also said that he has a huge amount of sympathy with Matthew Hancock: I am always delighted to meet my the idea of making that information fully public. I am hon. Friend, so I would love to do that. We are always sure she will appreciate that we are analysing around looking at how to ease the burden further. We have 300 responses to the consultation. I am certain that reduced the burden on business enormously. The one more information will be forthcoming to the House and in, two out rules are in place and are working, but there beyond as we set out what we plan to do to introduce a is always more to do. register of beneficial ownership, which we have committed to do within this Parliament. Mr David Heath (Somerton and Frome) (LD): Is the Minister aware of the huge disparity in the attitude of local enterprise partnerships to rural areas? Some are Small Businesses fully engaged and interested, but others appear to think that rural Britain is simply the inconvenient gaps between 12. Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD): What cities. Will he disabuse them of that notion? initiatives local enterprise partnerships are taking to support small businesses. [900684] Matthew Hancock: I certainly will. Local enterprise partnerships are led by local businesses and, in large The Minister for Skills and Enterprise (Matthew part, respond extremely effectively to the needs of local Hancock): The Government believe that local businesses businesses. In some areas of the country, they are are best placed to make the case on their needs. Local almost wholly reflective of the rural economy—that is enterprise partnerships have consulted with small businesses true of East Anglia, which is largely rural. I take on to develop their strategic economic plans, which will board the point that that does not always happen help to give them access to the local growth fund and everywhere, and I will ensure that it does. support skills, housing and infrastructure. Royal Mail Duncan Hames: I thank the Minister for that reply and, while I am at it, for his support for investment in 13. Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab): What assessment he the further education college estate. Does he agree that, has made of the value for money for the public purse of whether through the regional growth fund, Europe, the recent sale of shares in Royal Mail. [900685] 429 Oral Answers24 OCTOBER 2013 Oral Answers 430

The Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation available to local enterprise partnerships have been and Skills (Michael Fallon): Our overarching objective increased to at least £20 billion until 2020-21, and LEPs is to put Royal Mail in a position to be able to deliver will be able to access funding and powers to support the universal service on a long-term and sustainable growth through local growth deals. Furthermore, the basis. When considering value for money, we will assess regional growth fund is projected to deliver more than the sale proceeds together with the long-term value of 500,000 private sector jobs, leveraging in more than the taxpayers’ retained stake in the business and the £14 billion of private sector investment. reduced risk to the taxpayer of a stable company with access to private sources of capital. Peter Aldous: The Under-Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government, my hon. Friend Clive Efford: The shares were sold at £3.30 each and the Member for Great Yarmouth (Brandon Lewis), and this morning they are selling at £5.32. Does the Minister I, along with 12 other colleagues from Suffolk and agree that the taxpayer got a raw deal in the share sale, Norfolk, wrote to the Minister earlier this week emphasising and does he accept full responsibility? the advantages for promoting growth that assisted area status for Lowestoft and Great Yarmouth will bring to Michael Fallon: It is not unusual to see some share the two counties. Will my right hon. Friend give full price volatility in the immediate aftermath of a sale. Let consideration to the strong and compelling bid submitted us be clear: this sale was popular, oversubscribed and by the New Anglia local enterprise partnership? successful. When the Labour Government tried to sell Royal Mail, they failed. Michael Fallon: I certainly undertake to do that. I have seen my hon. Friend’s letter, signed by several Mr Adrian Bailey (West Bromwich West) (Lab/Co-op): colleagues, and I have also written this week to all Will the Minister tell us how much money was paid to Members setting out the benefits of assisted area status Lazard for so comprehensively undervaluing Royal Mail? and explaining the process and timetable for revising the map for the period 2014-2020. Michael Fallon: The fees paid to the Government’s advisers will be disclosed in the normal way to the National Audit Office, which is of course looking at this Apprenticeships sale as they looked at the Northern Rock sale, but they compare favourably to the fees paid to advisers by the 16. Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): Labour Government in the sale of QinetiQ 10 years What steps he is taking to promote provision of ago, when 10 senior managers were allowed to walk apprenticeships. [900689] away with £107 million and no shares were sold to the public. The Minister for Skills and Enterprise (Matthew Hancock): There were almost 860,000 people undertaking Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab): The Minister an apprenticeship last year; that is more than ever claimed that value for money for the taxpayer was before. We have raised standards, introduced higher central to the Government’s fire sale strategy for the apprenticeships, made it easier for employers to engage national institution that is Royal Mail. Given that many and created the £1,500 apprenticeship grant to encourage investment banks valued the company at £1.7 billion more employers to recruit an apprentice for the first more than the sale price, that the sale was oversubscribed time. 20 times over and that the share price has steadily risen to more than 60% of its initial value, why did the Minister reject raising the price range when he knew Caroline Lucas: Will the Minister’s Department do the offer was oversubscribed? Does the Minister agree even more—a bit of ambition here—to help young with the Secretary of State that the loss of more than people in my constituency taking part in schemes run £750 million to the taxpayer is froth and ill-informed? by City College and organisations such as Proactive and make it his policy that suppliers winning public Michael Fallon: It is far too early to judge the long-term contracts worth more than £1 million should be required performance of the Royal Mail share price. With any to offer apprenticeship opportunities on those contracts? initial public offering there will be volatility in the price and it is too early to make a judgment. As far as the Matthew Hancock: I would be delighted to work with banks are concerned, a whole number of banks were the hon. Lady to promote apprenticeships in Brighton. consulted on the value of Royal Mail. The value established I might point out that in her constituency the number of was, I think, around the mid-point of the range of the apprenticeship starts has doubled since 2010. We have advice we received. taken action to ensure that quality is improved as well, but the more we can do to improve and widen the Regional Growth opportunities for people to go into apprenticeships the better. 15. Peter Aldous (Waveney) (Con): What steps his Department is taking to promote regional growth. Peter Luff (Mid Worcestershire) (Con): The scandalously [900687] low number of women in engineering apprenticeships is a missed opportunity for young women themselves, The Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation engineering employers and the wider economy. Does and Skills (Michael Fallon): The Government believe the Minister share my concern about the continuing that local businesses and civic leaders are best placed to and powerful evidence of gender stereotyping in schools, understand what drives growth in their area. Resources particularly co-educational schools, and the low number 431 Oral Answers24 OCTOBER 2013 Oral Answers 432 of engineering companies taking action to improve Vince Cable: I do not think that either the Leader of work force diversity, revealed by the Institute of Engineering the Opposition or the former Prime Minister has quite and Technology only this week? got it right, but I have stressed that, for industry, which is our concern in this Department, the way forward is to Matthew Hancock: Absolutely. I pay tribute to the ensure that energy-intensive industries are properly work of my hon. Friend on this subject and look compensated and enabled to compete on a level playing forward to following his leadership in driving up the field, and we are pursuing that. number of women in engineering apprenticeships. T2. [900659] Sir Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD): Can Copyright the Minister give the House a progress report on how the Government are dealing with the scourge of the 17. Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): What payday loan companies? assessment he has made of the potential effect on UK artists and creators of introducing a private copying The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, exception without compensation. [900691] Innovation and Skills (Jo Swinson): I thank my hon. Friend for that question. He rightly highlights the fact The Minister for Universities and Science (Mr David that there have been significant problems in the payday Willetts): This change will allow people to make personal lending industry; thankfully, significant action is also copies of content they have bought. For example, it will being taken to match that. Twenty-five payday lenders allow an individual to copy their CDs on to an iPad. have left the market since March as a result of strong Many people already do this without realising it is action by the Office of Fair Trading, with the Competition illegal under copyright law. Most people think it is Commission undertaking an investigation, and earlier reasonable and should not be prevented by copyright. this month the Financial Conduct Authority published The Government agree and our new law will recognise a suite of new proposed rules, which will limit roll-overs, this. This change will not allow people to obtain copies cap the number of times that a lender can use a continuous unlawfully, and British creators will continue to be payment authority and introduce strict new rules on rewarded when people buy copies of their works. advertising to ensure that people do not get ripped off.

Kerry McCarthy: So far, the 22 EU member states Mr Chuka Umunna (Streatham) (Lab): The Secretary that have introduced private copying exceptions have all of State has said that growth must be better balanced introduced corresponding levy schemes on MP3 players and less reliant on rising house prices, but this week he and other copying devices to compensate artists for the has warned of dangerous and unsustainable house prices loss of income. Why will the UK not do the same? in London and extreme problems of affordability across the country on his Government’s watch. Does he therefore Mr Willetts: The reason is very simple: those European not agree that it would make sense to review how the countries have introduced far wider exemptions than we second part of his Government’s Help to Buy scheme are proposing. Many of them allow content borrowed operates now, as opposed to in a year’s time, given the from friends, families and libraries to be shared very attendant risks posed to more balanced growth? widely. That damages creators, so they need to provide compensation, but our proposal is carefully targeted to Vince Cable: I am delighted to see that the hon. protect what happens, as we all know, in almost every Gentleman has progressed beyond his recent role as a family in the country without doing damage to creators. share tipster and is now returning to more important and central concerns. The central point is that the Topical Questions growth we are experiencing is balanced. We are now beginning to see serious growth in manufacturing and T1. [900658] Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): If he will the construction sector, and the next big step will be to make a statement on his departmental responsibilities. see improvements in investment. As far as the housing market is concerned, the Chancellor has acknowledged The Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and that the Bank of England needs to watch the process Skills (Vince Cable): My Department plays a key role in very carefully. supporting the rebalancing of the economy through business to deliver growth, while increasing skills and Mr Umunna: But the right hon. Gentleman promised learning. an export and investment-led recovery, yet as growth returned over the summer, exports fell, and the Office Chris Bryant: One of the biggest difficulties for all for National Statistics says that growth has been businesses in the country, whether a small retail outlet concentrated in household expenditure, rather than or a major manufacturer, is the cost of energy. The investment, which is £2 billion lower than it was a year Secretary of State is a bit of a leftie. [Laughter.] Isay ago. We all know that he is a keen dancer. In failing to that as a compliment, obviously, and he seems to be prevail over the Treasury, is not the risk that, rather taking it that way, although the gentleman with the than marching to the tune of the makers, he is dancing jumper on, the Minister for Skills and Enterprise, the to the Chancellor’s new song of house inflation? hon. Member for West Suffolk (Matthew Hancock), who is protecting everybody from the cold over there, Vince Cable: I am sure the hon. Gentleman would seems to disagree. Does the Secretary of State agree agree that there is no harm in the trend we are observing, with the Prime Minister, with the former Prime Minister which is that consumers are now more confident and or with us about what we should do about energy are therefore spending and generating demand—I think prices? we have both agreed over the last three years that the 433 Oral Answers24 OCTOBER 2013 Oral Answers 434 generation of demand is a key part of recovery. As far T6. [900665] Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): as exports are concerned, there is rapid growth in British Small businesses in my constituency have been flagging exports to the big emerging markets, such as Russia, up the importance of local enterprise partnerships China, India and Brazil—indeed, I am going to Russia focusing more on skills training and apprenticeships, next week to pursue this course. and on the fact that that could be better promoted if all LEP boards included at least one specialist education T3. [900660] Christopher Pincher (Tamworth) (Con): representative. What does the Minister think of that Tamworth borough council is doing its bit to back idea, and will he consider making it a prerequisite for small business Saturday by promoting “created in LEPs receiving Government funding? Tamworth” and offering free market stalls to business people and free parking to customers. Do the Matthew Hancock: Unusually, I agree with both the Government agree that local authorities have a hugely suggestions that the hon. Lady has made. I look forward important role in helping rather than hindering small to working with her to support skills and small businesses business growth, not least by offering more free through the LEP in Brighton. parking? T7. [900666] Mr Marcus Jones (Nuneaton) (Con): The Minister for Skills and Enterprise (Matthew Manufacturing in the midlands is going through a Hancock): We in Government are huge and enthusiastic renaissance, but the challenge is to create the skills supporters of small business Saturday, which has cross-party necessary to meet future needs. Will the Minister join support. I encourage local authorities of all political me in welcoming Tomorrow’s Engineers week, and tell persuasions to follow the lead of Tamworth and introduce the House what more can be done to enthuse young policies that can help to support small businesses across people, particularly young women, about engineering? the board, and especially on Saturday 7 December, small business Saturday. Matthew Hancock: Yes, I am an enthusiastic supporter of Tomorrow’s Engineers, and the Government are T5. [900662] Pat Glass (North West Durham) (Lab): I backing that project in every way that we can. Tomorrow’s was disappointed by the Minister’s response to the Engineers is about demonstrating that engineering is right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan part of the future of our economy, and that it is an Beith) earlier and surprised at his lack of basic exciting career for someone to get into, whether they are geography, so I am going to give him another a man or a woman. It is where the future of our opportunity. I understand that we are all just “the economy is going, and providing the necessary skills is a desolate north-east” to Government Members, but I vital part of what we are doing. remind the Minister that Northumberland college is indeed in south-east Northumberland and up to Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab): The Secretary of 50 miles away from parts of north Northumberland. State has spoken proudly about the new businesses that Once again, what will the Minister do to meet the basic have started up, but can he tell us how many businesses needs of young people in north Northumberland? closed last year, and how many jobs were lost as a result of those closures? Matthew Hancock: I know the geography well, not least because I have visited Northumberland college in The Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation the last few months—[Interruption.] Hold on. Transport and Skills (Michael Fallon): I shall be happy to write to issues are important. If the hon. Lady is saying that we the hon. Lady with the number of deregistrations, but need to ensure that we get basic skills provision into all overall there are more businesses being created than are areas, including rural areas, I entirely agree with her, but being closed. We have, I think, 400,000 more new businesses if she is saying that the best thing to do is to ignore large than we started with two and half years ago. rural areas, I disagree. I would have thought that we could work together on this sort of thing. T8. [900667] Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con): What steps are the Government taking to address skills gaps, T4. [900661] Jessica Lee (Erewash) (Con): Will my create jobs and increase productivity by improving the hon. Friend join me in congratulating engineering and information given in schools about vocational job manufacturing firms in Erewash, including F. C. Laser opportunities, particularly local ones? and TecQuipment, which are continuing to grow and to recruit apprentices? In addition, F. C. Laser has Matthew Hancock: We are making the skills system recently won the D2N2 award for the most promising more rigorous and responsive to need, but schools have business in 2013, proving that the entrepreneurial spirit a duty to secure careers advice. I want that advice to be is alive and well in Erewash and creating many jobs. inspirational and impartial, and to include more mentoring, especially from people who have real jobs, so that we Matthew Hancock: I commend my hon. Friend’s can help each child to reach their potential. work in supporting small businesses and jobs in Erewash, through supporting enterprise. This is all about ensuring Seema Malhotra (Feltham and Heston) (Lab/Co-op): that companies can start up and grow and that they can Last week, I attended the Hounslow enterprise showcase, employ people as easily as possible. I hope that our organised by Dawn Edwards and Isabel King from the employment allowance, which comes in next April and Real Business Club, which was run with the support of which will give every company that employs people a the local jobcentre and Hounslow chamber of commerce. £2,000 tax break, will help to take that a step further. I spoke to three women from my constituency who were 435 Oral Answers24 OCTOBER 2013 Oral Answers 436 looking for advice on how to start or grow their businesses. Mr Adrian Bailey (West Bromwich West) (Lab/Co-op): Does the Secretary of State think that we need to do What assessment has the Secretary of State made of the more to support women-led businesses, particularly as impact of the funding for lending scheme on investment research shows that the UK has a higher gender gap in in small businesses? entrepreneurship than many of the OECD countries? Vince Cable: The funding for lending scheme has Vince Cable: Yes, we acknowledge the importance of had a very significant impact on the mortgage market. women in business. Indeed, one of the initiatives that It has had a much lesser impact on small business, but it we are leading involves ensuring that women are properly has recently been adapted, and I believe it has been used represented on the boards of our leading companies, by some of the new competitor banks such as the thereby creating role models for people starting their Aldermore. We certainly welcome that. own companies. I agree that there is a gender gap and I agree that we need to do a lot more about it. Iain Stewart (Milton Keynes South) (Con): Yesterday evening, I had the pleasure of attending the formal launch of the transport systems catapult, which is going Mr Mark Prisk (Hertford and Stortford) (Con): In to be based in Milton Keynes. Does my right hon. the past three years, the UK car industry has gone from Friend agree that this will be an important innovation strength to strength, but there is always more to do. Will to reaffirm the UK’s leading role in transport technology the Secretary of State tell the House what further work development? is planned, in conjunction with the Automotive Council, particularly with regard to new engine and powertrain Mr Willetts: This is a very important event—investment technologies? in our transport infrastructure to make it smart and innovative. It is backed with £50 billion of BIS money, with support from the Department for Transport—and, Michael Fallon: Let me first pay tribute to my hon. most importantly, with substantial business support, Friend, who had responsibility for this industry in the as well. Department for three years. The automotive strategy, published earlier this summer, included a focus on the Steve Rotheram (Liverpool, Walton) (Lab): The Secretary new automotive investment organisation to attract more of State will be aware of my concern about the legal suppliers into the UK, work to tackle the skills base by requirements when a company goes into administration. recruiting nearly 2,000 additional graduates into Will he look at making it a mandatory requirement for engineering, and further work to strengthen the supply administrators to prioritise the wider social consequences chain throughout the industry. of the sale of a company rather than allowing asset strippers to destroy jobs and local communities?

Paul Blomfield (Sheffield Central) (Lab): The Secretary Jo Swinson: The hon. Gentleman rightly outlines the of State will know that there is serious concern among devastating impact on communities that can happen our universities about many of the provisions of the when companies go into administration. Those involved Immigration Bill and their impact on international in dealing with the administration of a company have a student recruitment. What discussions has he had with variety of different issues to prioritise. We are making universities on the issue and what representations has sure that the problem is looked at in a range of ways. We he made to the Home Office? are simplifying insolvency processes and considering some of the issues rightly raised by Members—about pre-packs, for example, with an ongoing review. We are The Minister for Universities and Science (Mr David looking at fees, too, which have sometimes meant that Willetts): What we are seeing is a continuing increase in people cannot get as much of their money back as they the number of overseas students applying to come to should in these unfortunate circumstances. The Government study in Britain. We all make it clear whenever we visit are taking forward all those issues. overseas markets that there is no cap on the number of legitimate overseas students coming to Britain; they are Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con): This week very warmly welcome. marks the 50th anniversary of the groundbreaking Robbins report. Will the Minister for Universities and Science confirm that this Conservative-led Government will Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): I continue the spirit of Robbins and ensure that higher understand that in 2014-15 the local LEP is going to education is open to all? have a sizeable budget to distribute for infrastructure. Will the relevant Minister explain how we can access Mr Willetts: My hon. Friend is absolutely right; that budget and what the criteria will be? indeed, today is the day, 50 years ago, when the then Conservative Government accepted the Robbins report. We are marking the 50th anniversary with more funding Michael Fallon: Local enterprise partnerships have going into universities, with more students and with been invited to submit their growth plans not simply for more applications from students from disadvantaged the first year of devolved budgets, which is 2015-16, but backgrounds than ever before, so we can be proud of for the expenditure of structural funds—both regional our record on higher education. funds and social funds—from July next year for the next seven-year period. We will examine each of the Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): A report published local growth funds and work with individual LEPs on today by the 1994 Group of universities shows that, particular growth deals to suit each area. although the overall figures for post-graduate study in 437 Oral Answers24 OCTOBER 2013 Oral Answers 438 the United Kingdom look healthy, that is mainly due to Ian Swales (Redcar) (LD): As the chemical industry a 90% increase in the number of overseas students. is Britain’s leading exporter, I warmly welcome this What are the Government doing to support British week’s launch of the chemicals growth partnership. Will post-graduate students? the partnership convene specially to discuss the issues presented by Grangemouth?

Mr Willetts: That is an issue, which is why the Higher Michael Fallon: Despite the serious news about Education Funding Council for England has provided Grangemouth, the sector as a whole remains optimistic an extra £25 million of support for next year’s post-graduate about, in particular, the potential for future growth. students. We will increase that amount to £75 million The launch this week focused on energy costs, innovation for the following year, because we do not wish to see and supply-chain development, and the partnership people who could benefit from post-graduate education has published an action plan, which I know my hon. missing out. Friend has seen. 439 24 OCTOBER 2013 Business of the House 440

Business of the House The House will rise for the summer recess on Tuesday 22 July, and will return on Monday 1 September. The House will rise for the conference recess on 10.30 am Friday 12 September, subject to its agreeing future Ms Angela Eagle (Wallasey) (Lab): Will the Deputy sitting dates for private Members’ Bills, and will return Leader of the House give us the business for next week? on Monday 13 October. The House will rise for the November recess on The Deputy Leader of the House of Commons (Tom Tuesday 11 November, and will return on Monday Brake): My right hon. Friend the Leader of the House 17 November. is sorry to be absent again this week. He is recovering The House will rise for the Christmas recess on well at home following his back operation last week, Thursday 18 December, and return on Monday 5 November and is confident that he will be in his place and carrying 2015. [Laughter.] I mean Monday 5 January 2015. out his duties in the House next week. The business for next week will be as follows. Ms Eagle: I thought for a minute there that time had MONDAY 28 OCTOBER—I expect my right hon. Friend reversed and was going backwards, but the Deputy the Prime Minister to update the House following the Leader of the House has put us straight. May I again European Council. That will be followed by the Second pass on my best wishes for the speedy recovery of the Reading of the Local Audit and Accountability Bill Leader of the House? We hope to see him back in his [Lords], which will be followed by a motion to approve place next week—no discourtesy is intended to the an instruction relating to the Local Audit and Deputy Leader of the House, who has filled in entirely, Accountability Bill [Lords]. as we would have expected him to, with great aplomb. TUESDAY 29 OCTOBER—Remaining stages of the Pensions May I thank the Deputy Leader of the House for Bill, followed by a motion to approve a European giving us next week’s business and also next year’s recess document relating to reform of Eurojust and the European dates, especially around the conference recess? I understand Public Prosecutor’s Office, followed by a motion to why the Scottish referendum has disrupted the usual approve a Ways and Means resolution relating to the arrangements but it does seem a bit strange that we have Citizenship (Armed Forces) Bill. had to make changes to accommodate the 2014 Liberal Democrats conference. At the rate they are losing members, WEDNESDAY 30 OCTOBER—Opposition Day [9th allotted day]. There will be a debate on education, followed by a next year they could hold it in a telephone box over the debate on the future of the probation service. Both weekend. debates will arise on an Opposition motion. This business statement once again shows we are THURSDAY 31 OCTOBER—Remaining stages of the High kicking our legislative heels in the Commons while the Speed Rail (Preparation) Bill. other place is yet again stuffed full of legislation. The Government still have to find time for us to discuss the FRIDAY 1NOVEMBER—Private Members’ Bills. Offender Rehabilitation Bill even though it completed The provisional business for the week commencing its Lords stages months ago. It has now taken Labour 4 November will include the following. to announce an Opposition day debate for the Government’s MONDAY 4NOVEMBER—Second Reading of the National underhand privatisation of the probation service to be Insurance Contributions Bill. discussed at all. This is now the third time I have had to ask: can the Deputy Leader of the House confirm when TUESDAY 5NOVEMBER—Second Reading of the Gambling this Bill will return to the Commons? (Licensing and Advertising) Bill, followed by business to be nominated by the Backbench Business Committee. The Chancellor’s inadequate Financial Services (Banking Reform) Bill has been substantially changed by last-minute WEDNESDAY 6NOVEMBER—Opposition Day [10th allotted amendments in the Lords, making it a very different day]. There will be a debate on an Opposition motion; and much longer Bill from the one we debated here subject to be announced. originally. Given the importance of banking regulation THURSDAY 7NOVEMBER—Business to be nominated to everybody’s living standards, will the Deputy Leader by the Backbench Business Committee, followed by a of the House now give us an assurance that sufficient general debate relating to the commemoration of the time will be allocated to debate what will be essentially a first world war. very different piece of legislation when it finally returns to this place? FRIDAY 8NOVEMBER—Private Members’ Bills. Colleagues will also wish to know that, subject to In the last two weeks, three of the big six energy firms the progress of business, the House will adjourn on the have announced price rises of around 10%. To stand up following dates during 2014. to this abuse of market power, Labour will freeze prices until 2017, but the Government’s energy policy is in The House will rise for the February recess at close chaos. In Opposition, the Prime Minister hugged huskies of play on Thursday 13 February, and will return on and pretended to be green, and only last year he was Monday 24 February. boasting that his green levies were bigger than ours, but The House will rise for the Easter recess at close of last week his Back-Bench climate change deniers were play on Thursday 10 April, and will return on Monday agitating to abolish them, reducing bills by hitting the 28 April. poorest hardest and abandoning energy efficiency altogether, and yesterday, in a blind panic, the Prime Minister The House will not sit on Monday 5 May. announced that he had given in to them. The Deputy The House will rise for the Whitsun recess on Thursday Prime Minister looked like he had swallowed a wasp, 22 May, and will return on Monday 2 June. and Lib Dem spinners dismissed it as a “panicky U-turn” 441 Business of the House24 OCTOBER 2013 Business of the House 442 which will not be allowed to “dictate Government policy.” shadows me speak in questions, or perhaps the shadow So I think we now know what the new Tory policy is, Leader of the House was worried that her hon. Friend but can the Deputy Leader of the House tell us what the might outshine her at the Dispatch Box. Government’s policy is? I am pleased that the shadow Leader of the House Two weeks ago, the Prime Minister said we were referred to the 2014 Liberal Democrat conference. I living in recommend that she attends, because I am sure that she “some sort of Marxist universe” —[Official Report, 9 October would welcome the very open policy debates we have. 2013; Vol. 568, c. 152.] She alleged that the Government were kicking their for suggesting a 20-month energy price freeze, and he heels on legislation. As I read out, we are to debate said it was not possible to intervene in a market to set pensions, high-speed rail and national insurance prices. This week, his Government signed a nuclear deal contributions—if she thinks those are minor issues, she with the Chinese which sets prices not for 20 months, needs to think again. She referred to the Offender but for 35 years. On Tuesday Sir John Major announced Rehabilitation Bill and of course there will be an his conversion to a windfall energy tax and worried opportunity for it to be debated on the Opposition day about the silent have-nots who have to choose between she has provided. I reassure her that the Bill will be heating and eating this winter. Meanwhile, No. 10’s brought forward as soon as possible: as soon as advice to those who are cold was to wear a jumper. It parliamentary time allows. speaks volumes when the Tory ex-Prime Minister The shadow Leader of the House referred again to responsible for the creation of the big six energy companies Labour’s price freeze con. We all know that bills would sounds more in touch than the current Prime Minister. go up before it, that the Leader of the Opposition has So will the Deputy Leader of the House arrange for an said that he could not guarantee things during the urgent statement to clarify Government policy on energy, freeze if global prices went up and that the prices would and can we have a statement from the Prime Minister go up afterwards. So we all know where that would on whether he thinks Sir John Major is living in a lead. We had the nuclear statement at the beginning of Marxist universe too? the week, and I hope that she would have welcomed the The Conservative party in the 1992 Parliament is fact that, finally, we are getting some investment in our remembered for being one of the most disloyal in its energy industry. She may not be aware that over the history, but I have been looking at the numbers and it next 10 to 15 years about 60% of our energy generation turns out that the current crop of Government MPs are is going to be switched off as plants come to their end, three times worse than they were then, and I think the so there was a need for the Government to take urgent Patronage Secretary’s expression says it all, because he action to address that. I would have thought that she has to deal with them. It sounds like the Prime Minister would have welcomed that action. needs to listen to his predecessor not only on energy Clearly we want to help families with the cost of living. prices, but also on how to control his rebellious Back The Government have introduced a number of measures Benchers. While Sir John told them to put up or shut that will do that: 25 million basic rate taxpayers are up, the current Prime Minister just caves in. going to be £700 better off next year; we have capped We know that for 39 out of the 40 months since the rail fare rises; 3 million people will be taken out of election prices have grown faster than wages. Will the paying income tax altogether; we stopped the 13p fuel Deputy Leader of the House now admit what we all duty rise that would have occurred under Labour; and know: that it was the Chancellor’s city bonus tax dodge we have capped the council tax. So this Government that accounted for the surge in earnings in that one have a very proud record of tackling cost of living isolated month? So while living standards are falling issues. bonuses are soaring, and the Chancellor creates a bonus Finally, I would like to thank the shadow Leader of tax loophole for his mates. Will the Leader of the the House for again giving me the chance to mention at House therefore arrange for a statement from the Chancellor the Dispatch Box the save St Helier hospital campaign, about why he prioritises his millionaire friends over which I am leading. tackling our cost of living crisis? Last week, I asked the Deputy Leader of the House why he is campaigning against the closure of his local Sir Greg Knight (East Yorkshire) (Con): May we have hospital, despite being in the Government responsible a debate on making better use of natural resources, for it. Today, the Deputy Prime Minister will criticise particularly daylight? Is the Deputy Leader of the House the free schools policy, despite being in the Government aware that this weekend we are to undertake the flawed responsible for it. I know that it was the final of “The ritual of putting our clocks back by one hour, thereby Great British Bake Off” this week, but when will the plunging the UK into darkness by mid-afternoon? May Liberal Democrats realise that they cannot have their we have the opportunity to examine the case for changing cake and eat it? to British summer time and double summer time—putting our clocks forward an hour? That would make the afternoons lighter, it would reduce the number of road Tom Brake: Last week, the shadow Leader of the accidents and it would boost tourism. House asked what I am thinking when I am sitting alongside the Leader of the House. I must ask her today what the hon. Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge Tom Brake: Clearly, we are all in favour of making (Angela Smith) might be thinking as she sits alongside better use of daylight. I know that the House has the shadow Leader of the House—she may be wondering considered the issue on a number of occasions, and I whether it is vanity that has prevented the shadow am well aware of the arguments that my right hon. Leader of the House from letting the hon. Lady who Friend is putting forward about the benefit that would 443 Business of the House24 OCTOBER 2013 Business of the House 444

[Tom Brake] Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD): It is a year since Paul Silk made recommendations for further fiscal be derived, particularly for the tourism industry and devolution to the National Assembly for Wales. Why road safety. He may wish to consider raising the matter are we still waiting for the Government’s response to in a Westminster Hall Adjournment debate. those recommendations? May we have a statement about the Government’s intentions and, better still, legislation? Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab): Would the acting Leader of the House agree that if we had a Tom Brake: I know why my hon. Friend is pursuing debate in the Chamber on the orchestrated campaign of the matter vigorously; it is clearly of great interest to intimidation against The Guardian, that would be an him and his constituents. The matter is still under opportunity for some of us to point out that if it had discussion in Government. The most sensible thing for not been for the Snowden disclosures, the monitoring of me to do is ensure that we write to him setting out the the German Chancellor’s mobile phone by US intelligence current position. would not have been known? Surely the message about Snowden should be, “Let’s have more disclosures.” What Mr John Spellar (Warley) (Lab): On 26 May 2011, the The Guardian is publishing is undoubtedly in the national then Health Secretary, whom we wish a speedy recovery, interest. wrote to me about a decision by West Midlands strategic health authority to reduce nurse training. He replied Tom Brake: Clearly, I do not agree that there is an that it believed that orchestrated campaign against The Guardian. Clearly, “a reduction in commissions is necessary to avoid a significant there is a need for the issues of public interest that The oversupply in the nursing workforce.” Guardian wants to highlight to be balanced with the Last week it was revealed by Nursing Times that a security implications of any material it puts into the massive one in three hospitals is going abroad actively public domain. to recruit new nurses. May we have an early statement so that the new Health Secretary can override his Oliver Colvile (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) incompetent bureaucrats and expand nurse training (Con): During the summer recess, I met Stuart Wyatt, a opportunities for our desperate and deserving youngsters? constituent who suffers from multiple sclerosis. He told me that he and many others would like to use cannabis Tom Brake: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for that for medical reasons. Although I do not think that we question, and I will certainly draw the matter to the should legalise cannabis at all, I do recognise that the attention of the Leader of the House when he returns, pain of some who suffer from MS and other neurological as he may want to consider it further. The right hon. conditions could be relieved by it. May we have a Gentleman will be aware that the Government have statement from the Secretary of State for Health on the provided an extra £12.7 billion of investment in the role of cannabis in relieving pain and how it could be NHS. He may also be aware that 4,000 more clinical given on prescription? staff have gone into the NHS and that there are 23,000 fewer administrative staff. Specifically on the Tom Brake: I thank my hon. Friend for that question, west midlands, however, I will ensure that the Health which he has put in measured terms. I understand why Secretary responds to him. he has put it on behalf of his constituent. He may be aware of Sativex, a cannabis-derived mouth spray licensed John Glen (Salisbury) (Con): Last Saturday presidential in the UK in 2010 as an additional treatment for elections were once again postponed in the Maldives moderate to severe spasticity in multiple sclerosis. He when President Waheed and his puppet interim Government may also be aware that the National Institute for Health of the previous elected President refused to step aside. and Care Excellence is updating its clinical guideline on Will the Deputy Leader of the House make time for a the management of MS in primary and secondary care. debate so that MPs on both sides of the House can Sativex is one of the new interventions that NICE has voice their support for free and fair elections in that identified for inclusion in its updated guidelines, which country? it expects to publish in October 2014. Tom Brake: The annulment of the first round of Mr Dave Watts (St Helens North) (Lab): May I Maldivian elections held on 7 September, and the continued support the call made by the shadow Leader of the delay in holding new elections, are of concern to the House for a debate on energy, so that the Government Government and to the Foreign Secretary, as he made can clarify whether they are in favour of the warm clear in a statement last week. It is important that homes programme, the renewable energy programme, elections take place to a timing specified by the Maldives Labour’s cap or John Major’s windfall tax? Those points elections commission and in accordance with the Maldives need to be clarified. May we have that debate? constitution. Ministers and officials are in touch with candidates and are strongly encouraging them to engage Tom Brake: Obviously, the Labour party has Opposition in a process that will deliver inclusive, free and fair days that it could use to secure such a debate. Earlier elections, and a smooth transition of power. My hon. there was a statement about the nuclear industry and in Friend may be aware that we have Foreign and the course of a number of exchanges, including Prime Commonwealth Office questions on Tuesday when he Minister’s questions and Business, Innovation and Skills could raise the matter again. questions earlier today, we have made clear the Government’s position on energy and why we do not Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab): Britain has an believe that what the Leader of the Opposition proposes enormous and ongoing trade deficit with the rest of the is a sensible or feasible approach. European Union, including a goods deficit of more 445 Business of the House24 OCTOBER 2013 Business of the House 446 than £1 billion a week, mainly with Germany. That is to call for him to be released on schedule next August. equivalent to 1 million exported jobs. The situation is The promotion and protection of human rights is a key conclusive evidence of a substantially misaligned exchange priority in our bilateral relationship with Russia and we rate, so will the Deputy Leader of the House make regularly raise it at all levels. Government time available for a full debate on the It may be appropriate to add that, since I announced exchange rate? the business statement, I have been informed of further business. On Thursday 31 October, there will be a Tom Brake: I am afraid that I cannot provide the hon. debate in Westminster Hall on the oversight of the Gentleman with an opportunity to discuss that in intelligence and security services. Government time, but he might want to make representations to his party’s leadership about whether Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): The Foreign Secretary it could be the subject of an Opposition day debate. I is very good at updating the House about the situation know that he has strong views on the European Union, in the middle east. Yesterday, 300 al-Qaeda-affiliated and I wonder whether he feels that coming out of the prisoners organised an attempted break-out from the EU would help or hinder the trade deficit. main prison in Sana’a in Yemen. When can we have a statement on what assistance we are giving to the Yemeni Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con): In January 2012, my Government? right hon. Friend the Prime Minister made a wonderful speech about how to reconstruct an inclusive, just and Tom Brake: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for that popular capitalism. He called for a new co-operatives pertinent and timely question. I cannot guarantee that Bill, but that has not yet appeared. I cannot imagine there will be time for a debate or a statement, but I will that the Liberal Democrats are opposing it, but I cannot ensure that the Foreign Secretary hears his concerns think of any other explanation, as the Secretary of and responds directly to him. He will also have an State for Education and Cabinet Office Ministers have opportunity to raise the issue directly with the Foreign supported such a Bill. Will the Deputy Leader of the Secretary during Question Time next Tuesday. House see to it that time is provided to bring forward that important new Bill on co-operatives? Andrew Griffiths (Burton) (Con): May we have a debate on charging by general practitioners? Vulnerable Tom Brake: I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman people in my constituency are being charged up to £130 had an opportunity to raise that issue during today’s by their GPs to provide medical information that is Business, Innovation and Skills questions, as that would needed for Atos assessments. That is money they can have been a good opportunity to flag it up. However, I sorely afford to spend and this important issue is affecting will ensure that he gets a written response to his very some of the most vulnerable in society, so may we specific question. please debate it?

Alison Seabeck (Plymouth, Moor View) (Lab): My Tom Brake: Clearly that is a significant issue that I constituents are getting angry and frustrated about the am sure presents a real financial challenge to some rocketing cost of High Speed 2. At a time when we are people. I would like to think that GPs would be careful expecting winter weather and more flooding, may we about levying such charges when it is clear that the have a statement from the Secretary of State for Transport person might not be able to afford them. on what he is doing to ensure that the line between Penzance and London is resilient in the face of floods Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab): May I challenge the and can be kept open beyond Exeter? Deputy Leader of the House to come back to the House some time in the near future and explain exactly Tom Brake: I assure the hon. Lady that the cost how the Government are devising policy? Yesterday’s controls around HS2 are very firm. This substantial announcement by the Prime Minister on green measures and important project is going to provide the biggest and fuel prices caught everyone unawares. Today the boost to our rail network since the Victorian era. On the Deputy Minister is making a speech about education specific issue about her locality, the Government have and suggesting that we should regulate with regard to set aside substantial investment to ensure that other qualified teachers in our schools, but only last week the projects around the country are delivered. She may wish Minister for Schools signed off on cuts that could to raise the matter at Transport questions on 7 November. deregulate the oversight of qualified teachers. The Government’s approach, and not least that of the Liberal Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con): Could Democrats, seems to be inconsistent, so could we have time be found for a debate on human rights in Russia, an explanation of exactly what is going on? given that tomorrow marks the 10th anniversary of the imprisonment of Amnesty prisoner of conscience Mikhail Tom Brake: I will give the hon. Gentleman an explanation Khodorkovsky, who was imprisoned in a gulag in the immediately. The Deputy Prime Minister has said that Arctic circle for having the temerity to disagree with the parents want and expect their children to be taught a President? core body of knowledge by good, qualified teachers or teachers seeking qualification—the quality of their teaching Tom Brake: The hon. Gentleman may be aware that is checked by Ofsted—and to get a healthy meal every the Minister for Europe issued a statement marking the day. The Government believe that every child should 10-year anniversary of Mikhail Khodorkovsky’s arrest have access to a good choice of excellent local schools. and met his son on 10 October to discuss the situation. The hon. Gentleman may know that three quarters of The Government have significant concerns about the free schools provide good or outstanding education, processes used to convict Khodorkovsky and continue compared with just 64% in the public sector. 447 Business of the House24 OCTOBER 2013 Business of the House 448

Stuart Andrew (Pudsey) (Con): I recently met my he will welcome the fact that the Government are constituent Angela Lavelle, who suffered from breast investing £250 million in each of the next two years to cancer. She told me how chemotherapy affects eyesight, support those A and E departments that are under the leading to a greater risk of cataracts, and the teeth, most pressure. He may also welcome the fact that, for leading to problems of rapid decay, which results in the the first time, the Government have put in place measures need for more frequent check-ups. Unless patients are to examine waiting times. I will ensure that a response is in receipt of benefits or on a low income, they have to sent to him about the specific issues that he has raised meet those extra costs. May we have a debate to discuss about the health service in Shropshire. what help we can give these cancer sufferers? Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger (Bridgwater and West Somerset) Tom Brake: I am sure the hon. Gentleman and everyone (Con): Last week, when I gently asked the Deputy in the House will welcome the extra funding the Leader of the House about the forthcoming announcement Government have put into cancer treatment. I will on nuclear, he said that I would have to wait for the ensure that the Health Secretary responds to him on the announcement. The announcement has now been made, specific issue of the extra costs that his constituent has so I will ask my question again. Bridgwater college is to meet. training the top engineers who will be needed to fulfil our promises not only, as somebody put it, to the Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP): On energy Chinese and the French, but to the United Kingdom. prices, may we have a debate or a statement in which we Sedgemoor district council in my constituency must may raise the concerns of households that are off the have a major part of the inward investment that the gas grid and heavily dependant on home heating oil? country needs to ensure that the supply chain for this That is a particular problem in rural areas and regions enormous project is fulfilled. May we have time to such as Northern Ireland, where 70% of households are discuss training, skills and inward investment for the dependant on home heating oil. The costs are extremely United Kingdom in relation to the biggest infrastructure high and people are suffering in fuel poverty. Such a project that we have seen for a generation? debate or statement would allow us to explore the help that is available for those households. Tom Brake: The UK is determined to become a low-carbon economy, which is why our energy policy Tom Brake: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for requires a mix of renewable, clean coal, gas and nuclear highlighting the significant issue of the additional fuel energy. As a result of the announcement on Monday, I costs that are faced by those who are off the grid. am sure that the Government will want to work with Although I cannot assure him that there will be an employers and training providers to ensure that UK plc opportunity to debate the matter, I will ensure that what derives the maximum possible benefit. We believe that he has said is passed on to the Secretary of State for the nuclear industry is cost-competitive with other Energy and Climate Change so that my right hon. generation technologies. However, as the hon. Gentleman Friend can set out how we are helping those who are in identified, we must ensure that we derive the maximum the most difficult financial position of all. benefit from the project so that we can use those skills as the industry develops around the world. Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con): May we have a debate on reforming the Official Secrets Act? Breaches Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab): of the Act over the past decade in the Royal Navy and On 18 April, I raised the issue of a fake internet jobs the Secret Intelligence Service have attracted only light scam that was exposed by BBC Radio Humberside. custodial sentences. Is it not about time the Act was Today, Radio Humberside has reported on another reformed to ensure that there is sufficient deterrent racket in which jobseekers are tricked into calling an against treason in this country? expensive 070 phone number and completing a long questionnaire for a fake company called SB Millers, Tom Brake: I am not aware of any opportunities that which is run by Sean Dixon of 33 Epsom road in there will be to raise that matter shortly, but the hon. London. Please may we have a debate on how we can Gentleman could apply for an Adjournment debate on stop these rackets that exploit desperate people who are the subject. If he feels that there is cross-party concern looking for work and prosecute the criminals behind about the issue, he could also seek a debate from the them? Backbench Business Committee. Tom Brake: The hon. Lady rightly highlights that David Wright (Telford) (Lab): May we have a problem in the Chamber today and I hope that it will comprehensive statement to the House about the health receive publicity to ensure that people are more widely service in Shropshire? There is a debate about A and E aware of that scam. I am sure that she has raised the services between Telford and Shrewsbury, which nobody matter with her local trading standards officers to see in the county wants, and there is an emerging crisis in what action they can take. Thanks to her, we are all the ambulance service, particularly with regard to response aware of the potential problem, and I am sure we will times. May we have a comprehensive statement from all want to keep an eye out to ensure that our constituents the Government about those health services, because are not affected in the way that hers have been. they are very important to people in Shropshire and particularly to those in Telford and Wrekin? Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): There has been an outrageous slur from the Opposition that Liberal Tom Brake: The hon. Gentleman is right to highlight Democrat Ministers are not supporting the Prime Minister. his concerns about his local health service. He mentioned If we closed our eyes today, we could hear the Deputy A and E and the ambulance service, and I am sure that Leader of the House sounding exactly like a Tory 449 Business of the House24 OCTOBER 2013 Business of the House 450

Minister. Just to ensure that there is no doubt, will he groups and small organisations off coming here to hold arrange for the Deputy Prime Minister to make a events? May we have an early debate on the chaotic statement next week that he fully supports the Prime management and running of this place? Minister’s desire to roll back green energy regulations? Tom Brake: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that Tom Brake: I am not sure whether the hon. Gentleman question and I think that he is sufficiently experienced had an opportunity to listen to the Deputy Prime to know that that is perhaps not a matter on which I can Minister on LBC, but he might have found clarification respond. We can both agree that we want the parliamentary on that point. Perhaps Mrs Bone had an opportunity to estate to be as open as possible to anybody, but he will listen to that interview and will be able to report back to also be aware that at the same time Parliament is under him. The coalition Government have made it clear that a lot of pressure to ensure that it covers its costs. The we are committed to being the greenest Government commercial implications of such matters must therefore ever, and we will not do that at the expense of the also be considered. environment or of jobs in the emerging industries. At the same time, however, we are aware of the pressures Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con): Last Saturday that people face due to their energy bills. That is why we night and into Sunday morning, I went out on patrol have legislated, for instance, to ensure that people are with Humberside police officers, the excellent police offered the lowest tariff, and it is why we have measures and crime commissioner for Humberside, Matthew Grove, in place to address the winter peak in fuel costs, with and the magnificent street angels into the streets of £135 available to 2 million people. Cleethorpes to view the night-time economy. It became evident that a review of the current licensing laws is Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab): As the Deputy Leader necessary. Will the Deputy Leader of the House find of the House has demonstrated, creative inventiveness Government time for a debate on such matters? has its place in parliamentary debate, but there is a time and place for everything, and it can be taken too far. In Tom Brake: I am afraid that I am not in a position to light of that, will it be possible to have a debate on the announce time for such a debate. The hon. Gentleman errors—inadvertent, of course—the misrepresentations, might want to try to secure an Adjournment debate. I inadvertent, and the all-too-frequent inaccuracies, am sure that colleagues on both sides of the House will inadvertent, of the Prime Minister in his attempts to have strong views about their own nightlife and the answer PMQs? impact of licensing laws on it. He rightly highlighted the work done by the street angels on his patch, and I Tom Brake: I am sorry to disappoint the hon. Gentleman, want to take this opportunity to congratulate the street but there is clearly not such an opportunity beyond the pastors in Sutton, who play a similar role. Prime Minister’s weekly attendance at the Dispatch Box, when he puts across the Government’s position on Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab): Tomorrow is wear matters of all natures forcefully and effectively. Of it pink day in aid of the Breast Cancer Campaign. course, the Prime Minister is a more regular attendee at LivinginBL, one of the excellent local newspapers in the House to make oral statements than his predecessor. Bolton West, is organising many activities to raise money and awareness. Will the Deputy Leader of the House Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD): May we join me and many thousands of people throughout the have a debate on how we can continue to build on the country and wear it pink tomorrow? legacy of the amazing London 2012? This Saturday, the next major international sporting tournament in this Tom Brake: I hope to be able to help the hon. Lady. country, the rugby league world cup, will begin with When I go home this evening, I will have to check what Australia against England and Wales against Italy. Will pink items there are in my wardrobe, and subject to the Government give it their full support? As a London there being a suitable pink tie, pink shirt or, indeed, MP, will the Deputy Leader of the House be going to pink wig, I might well be able to join her tomorrow. It is the semi-final double header at Wembley on 23 November? a fantastic campaign and I am sure that many MPs will have taken advantage of the photo opportunity provided, Tom Brake: I am not sure whether my hon. Friend wearing pink glasses, pink wigs or other pink items. It is was offering me tickets for the game on the 23rd; if so, an effective way of drawing attention to an effective we can discuss it later. He is right about the rugby campaign. league world cup, which could well be the best attended ever. He is also right to highlight the importance of Julian Sturdy (York Outer) (Con): In light of a recent sport, which can tackle some of the health issues that conviction in my constituency for the mistreatment of we face and may be used to work with young people to horses, and alongside the Welsh Assembly’s recent proposals help to build their leadership and team skills, as it is by on the issue, may we have a debate on tackling fly Cricket for Change, an organisation in my constituency. grazing and the abandonment of horses, which sadly happen all too often in my constituency and across Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): Does England and Wales? the Deputy Leader of the House agree that Parliament and the parliamentary estate should be open to people Tom Brake: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that of all backgrounds and to all our constituents, and that question. He will be aware that that is an issue not just that should not depend on how wealthy or influential in rural areas but in urban and suburban areas such as they are? Is he aware that the proposed massive increase mine, where horses are often left on local playing fields. in the cost of using rooms in the House and on the I am afraid that I cannot provide any time immediately parliamentary estate will put many charities, third sector for that matter to be debated and I will have to refer him 451 Business of the House24 OCTOBER 2013 Business of the House 452

[Tom Brake] Tom Brake: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that sensible question and for highlighting the state of prisons to the opportunities provided in Westminster Hall. If in England. That matter was raised during questions there is a greater appetite for such a debate, he could last week, and the Government rightly set out that the perhaps refer the matter to the Backbench Business priority is safety and security in prisons. I agree, however, Committee through cross-party representation. that if there are people who are in a position to be released but have no access to an offender behaviour Tom Blenkinsop (Middlesbrough South and East programme, the matter needs to be addressed. I will Cleveland) (Lab): May we have a debate or statement ensure that the Ministry of Justice writes to the hon. on the Government’s discretionary housing payment Gentleman on that subject. policy? Since April, 1,307 households across the public and private rental sectors have applied to Redcar and George Freeman (Mid Norfolk) (Con): One in six Cleveland borough council for the discretionary housing men in the country, and in this Chamber, will be diagnosed payment. Only 358 households have been awarded it, with prostate cancer during their lives—it is the single not because eligibility criteria have not been met but biggest killer of middle-aged men. With November because the fund is exhausted, which means that nearly looming, will the Deputy Leader of the House join me three quarters of households will not receive anything. in expressing support for the Movember campaign? May we have a statement or debate on the policy, as Movember was started by two patients, and has now families in my constituency are in dire straits as a result raised more than £200 million and become the world’s of this Government’s bedroom tax and other cost-of-living biggest charity in the field. Will the Deputy Leader of measures? the House signal his support and consider becoming a fellow Mo Bro, and can we have a debate in the House Tom Brake: The hon. Gentleman will be aware that in on the importance of male health awareness and the response to concerns expressed by local authorities the involvement of patients in research? Government made additional moneys available for the discretionary housing payment. I am sorry that on his Tom Brake: The hon. Gentleman may be alarmed to patch the funds are, he says, exhausted, but I am aware hear that I took part in Movember three years ago, but that a number of other local authorities did not fully the general view of my trucker-style moustache was access the money made available to them. He will that it was best never seen again, and I am afraid that understand the reasons why the Government have this year I will not be participating. I do not know proceeded with the changes to the spare room subsidy, whether the hon. Gentleman intends to sport a dramatic and if he has concerns about the policy, we need to hear moustache—a Mexican moustache perhaps—during whether the Labour party would provide additional November, but I agree that Movember is a fantastic funding or simply deliver the same as the Government’s campaign that has caught people’s imagination. Men programme. are not very comfortable talking about prostate cancer and their health in general, and the campaign has Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): We recently had the highlighted an issue that men of my age—and the hon. intolerable situation where a triple killer, who murdered Gentleman’s age—need to be aware of and concerned his last victim while he was on the run from prison, was about. not given a whole-life tariff by the judge, because the judge said that that would breach a European Court of Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): May we have a debate Human Rights ruling. I know the Deputy Leader of the on reducing VAT on energy bills? Every 1% reduction in House is on the wishy-washy wing of the coalition VAT means £300 million saved for hard-pressed Government—quite a crowded wing—but will he arrange householders. Will my right hon. Friend lobby the for a debate and a vote in this House, so that the House Prime Minister to ensure that regaining control of our can make it clear that we expect judges to impose VAT rates is the No. 1 part of renegotiation on our whole-life tariffs where they see fit, and ignore the views relationship with the European Union? of the pseudo-sham judges at the European Court of Human Rights? Tom Brake: I am sure my hon. Friend is aware that under the EU directive covering VAT it would not Tom Brake: I thank my hon. Friend for that, but I do currently be possible for VAT on gas and electricity not think I would describe myself as wishy-washy in any supplies to be reduced below 5%. We know that rising shape or form. I hope he will acknowledge that there is energy prices are hitting many households hard at a separation on this issue, and that Members of Parliament difficult time, which is why in response to an earlier and the Government generally should be a little reluctant question I set out exactly what the Government are to interfere in decisions taken by judges. doing about the issue. The Government’s view is that the best way to keep everyone’s bills down is to help Steve Rotheram (Liverpool, Walton) (Lab): In contrast people save energy, and to ensure fair tariffs and encourage to the previous question, will the Deputy Leader of the competition, which is exactly what they are doing. If House allow a debate on the state of prisons in England? the Government were to pursue the approach that the He is probably aware that many inmates have completed hon. Gentleman suggests, they would also have to say their tariffs but cannot be released until they complete where the extra money would come from to make up for an offender behaviour programme, but waiting lists are the loss in VAT. currently more than five years long. Does he agree that it makes no economic or moral sense to keep people Mark Pawsey (Rugby) (Con): Has the Deputy Leader locked up who are eligible for release and incarcerated of the House seen the recent European Parliament only because of a paucity of suitable courses? ruling on e-cigarettes, which determines that an e-cigarette 453 Business of the House24 OCTOBER 2013 Business of the House 454 is not—I repeat not—a medicinal product? Given that life. We need to do more work to raise the quality of the Government remain committed to increasing regulation English and maths throughout the country. Our reforms in the UK, may we have a Department of Health to schools and further education will improve the quality statement on what action it will take to enable smokers of the teaching work force, reward the best providers who are looking to reduce their dependency on tobacco and ensure that learners are stretched to achieve the to continue to use e-cigarettes? best they can. He might have heard the Minister for Schools set out in his statement last week exactly what Tom Brake: The hon. Gentleman is right to ask the we are doing to ensure that standards in all schools are Government to set out our position. We were disappointed improved. that the European Commission’s proposal to regulate products including e-cigarettes as medicines was not Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): Like most of supported by the European Parliament. The Government my constituents in Kettering, I believe that if a foreign believe they need to be regulated as medicines. As he is national commits a crime they should be sent back to aware, in the meantime licensed nicotine replacement their country of origin and banned from re-entering the therapies are available to help to reduce the harm of UK. That very sensible policy platform is outlined in smoking to smokers and those around them, as my Foreign National Offenders (Exclusion from the recommended by the National Institute for Health and United Kingdom) Bill, which is scheduled for debate Care Excellence. tomorrow. Are the Deputy Leader of the House and Her Majesty’s Government inclined to support that Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con): sensible policy? The Care Quality Commission has raised concerns about maternity services in my local Medway hospital. Tom Brake: I am aware of the hon. Gentleman’s Bill May we have an urgent statement from the Secretary of and his concern about foreign nationals who commit State for Health on Government policy on maternity crimes. We will listen to the debate on his Bill, but I services and what is being done to get more midwives cannot reassure him today from the Dispatch Box that into our hospitals? the Government will support it.

Tom Brake: I thank the hon. Gentleman for flagging Mr Speaker: I call finally Mr Christopher Pincher. up his concerns about his local hospital in Medway. He Christopher Pincher (Tamworth) (Con): Thank you, will be aware that the Government are taking action on Mr Speaker. I know my place; regrettably, you appear midwives. He might also be aware that there is a record to know it, too. Be that as it may, may we have a debate number of midwives in training. There will be 1,300 or on entrepreneurship? Tomorrow, I am meeting Tom so additional qualified midwives by the middle of this Robinson, who at the age of 22 is one of Tamworth’s academic year in comparison with the beginning of the youngest entrepreneurs. He began by selling T-shirts Parliament. from a market stall and is graduating to selling them from his first shop in the town centre. A debate would Andrew Jones (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (Con): allow hon. Members to discuss what help we give and Earlier this month, the OECD published a report showing what more help we could give to young entrepreneurs that young adults in England have among the lowest such as Tom to help them to get their businesses off the results in the industrialised world in international literacy ground. and numeracy tests. The report showed that this is the only country in the survey in which results are going Tom Brake: Clearly, we left the best question till last. backwards, with higher numbers in the elder cohort I congratulate the hon. Gentleman’s constituent, Tom than in the younger cohort. May we therefore have a Robinson, on the effective entrepreneurship he is deploying debate on standards in schools, focusing on why such a to promote his business. From small things grow much high proportion of academies and free schools are larger businesses. The Government are clearly committed classed as outstanding? to helping entrepreneurs. We have made significant funds available—loans-wise—to young people who are Tom Brake: Like the hon. Gentleman, I was quite setting up businesses. We are growing jobs in the private depressed at what the report said on the progress young sector and have the largest number of businesses registered, people are making. Clearly, literacy and numeracy are and businesses confidence, construction, manufacturing the foundations on which all further achievement in and exports are all up. We are beginning to see the education depend, and are critical for work and everyday economy as a whole moving in the right direction. 455 24 OCTOBER 2013 456 Points of Order Backbench Business 11.25 am Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): On Interest Rate Swap Derivatives a point of order, Mr Speaker. I would like to raise the issue of access to the House at busy times. Even on a 11.27 am day like today, when we are about to debate interest rate swap derivatives, there is a lot of interest among angry Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con): I beg to move, constituents. Have you noticed that recently the queues That this House considers the lack of progress made by banks to get into the House for meetings with Members of and the Financial Conduct Authority on the redress scheme Parliament have sometimes been an hour and a half to adopted as a result of the mis-selling of complex interest rate two hours long? That is new. Will you get someone to derivatives to small and medium businesses to be unacceptable; look into why these queues are so long? I am told it is and notes that this lack of progress is costly and has caused further undue distress to the businesses involved. not a matter of security, but something else. The House should be more accessible. I am surprised to be back here 15 months after the first debate on this important issue. I appreciate the Mr Speaker: I certainly shall, and I shall revert to the Backbench Business Committee—the Chair is in her hon. Gentleman and, as necessary, to the House. I am place— once again offering time to debate it. The first not sure with what frequency queues are lasting that debate made a significant difference. Prior to that debate, long, but if it is a regular phenomenon as opposed to an the Financial Conduct Authority and the banking sector exceptional one that is very unsatisfactory. The hon. were refusing to acknowledge that there was an issue Gentleman is nodding to suggest that it is a regular that needed to be dealt with. A few days after the first phenomenon. If that is so, it is disturbing. I will look debate, that changed and a pilot scheme was announced. into it and I will come to back to him and, if necessary, Members who have followed this issue carefully are to the House. aware that the pilot scheme found that approximately 91% of cases investigated between July 2012 and January Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab): On a point of 2013 had a technical mis-selling, so the process has order, Mr Speaker. Newspaper reports today say that highlighted the mis-selling of these products. The House the New Zealand Government have agreed to reduce should take some comfort in knowing that securing the their universal service obligation for post from six days second debate has also resulted in a significant concession to three, following heavy lobbying from New Zealand from the banking sector. Members of the all-party Post on the unsustainability of the USO. The Minister group on interest rate mis-selling have argued long and with responsibility for Royal Mail told the House in hard that the redress scheme had a central flaw, which is Business, Innovation and Skills questions last month that the technical redress for the mis-selling of interest that changing the USO in this country required primary rate swap derivatives and the consequential losses were legislation. That was later changed in a letter to my hon. linked within the redress scheme. That gave the banks in Friend the Member for Middlesbrough South and East question a significant advantage, because small businesses Cleveland (Tom Blenkinsop), but the Under-Secretary facing heavy cash-flow problems were inclined perhaps, of State for Business, Innovation and Skills, the hon. under the scheme as it stood, to accept an offer of Member for East Dunbartonshire (Jo Swinson) refused technical redress without fighting hard over consequential to correct the record during BIS questions this month. losses, simply because they were desperate for the cash. Is there any mechanism by which we may have the As a result of the announcement of this debate last Minister clarify the position in the House on how the week, HSBC said on Tuesday that it was separating the USO can be changed? technical redress from the consequential losses, and other banks have followed. My first call today, therefore, Mr Speaker: I cannot say that I am familiar with the is for the rest of the banks involved in the redress minutiae of public policy in New Zealand; nor is that a scheme to follow HSBC’s and RBS’s lead. It is several matter properly for the Chair. Ministers, in common months too late, perhaps, but it is the right decision, with all other Members, are responsible for the accuracy and we want to see the other banks following. of the statements they make to the House. If a Member thinks that an error has been made, there are opportunities Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab): Does the hon. outside the Chamber and through the Order Paper to Gentleman agree that the FCA is still dragging its feet pursue such a matter. Meanwhile, the Government Chief and that this has gone on for far too long? I am helping Whip and other members of the Government are on the Ged Fitzpatrick, who has a care home in north Wales Treasury Bench and I trust they will have heard the hon. and who recently suffered a heart attack. I am sure that Gentleman’s point of order. that had something to do with the stress of this process, which has gone on for far too long.

Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con): Bully-Banks surveyed its members and found that the health impact on them had been significant. I accept that the FCA still has ground to make up, but despite its stating in September that linking both payments was the right thing to do, I am pleased that yesterday it welcomed the decision to separate them. I would rather see a sinner repent, even late in the day, than no changes whatsoever. 457 Interest Rate Swap Derivatives24 OCTOBER 2013 Interest Rate Swap Derivatives 458

Mr Jack Straw (Blackburn) (Lab): I wish to express Guto Bebb: My hon. Friend makes an important my gratitude to the hon. Gentleman for his leadership point, which those on the Front Bench need to take on this issue. Hon. Members on both sides of the House seriously. These businesses have been unable to invest are very grateful. Like so many colleagues, I have a firm because they simply do not know whether they are in my constituency—it does not want to be named—that financially feasible. Time and again, I have heard stories has been in this situation. I was able to get the redress of people with investment plans who, rather than payment paid and was about to get compensation in implementing them and growing their businesses, have hand, when the FCA intervened to say, “Oh well, the been closing elements of their businesses, making staff 8% simple interest paid for the redress payment is redundant and just trying to survive. sufficient compensation for the consequential losses.” Does he accept what must be blindingly obvious—that Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab): The no bank seeking redress for a loss that it had unfairly hon. Gentleman mentioned the situation facing small suffered and then seeking compensation for consequential businesses. Does he agree that some small companies losses would dream of ever seeing the two rolled up are afraid to challenge their banks because their loans together? What is sauce for the goose must be sauce for could be cancelled? the gander. Guto Bebb: That concern has certainly been raised, but I keep receiving assurances from the banks that that Mr Speaker: We all look forward to the publication is not the case. I want to take those assurances at face of the right hon. Gentleman’s thesis on this subject, but value and would still recommend that anybody who has in fact I think we have just heard it. been sold one of these products should undoubtedly go Guto Bebb: I accept the right hon. Gentleman’s point. and talk to their banks. If the banks are unsympathetic, This is clearly an important step forward, however, and they should come and talk to their MPs, because we can we should take comfort from the fact that this place can and should intervene. influence the behaviour of the banking sector. I will be Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) (Con): Will my discussing consequential losses later in my speech. hon. Friend give way? It is fair to say that the 91% finding in the pilot scheme has been replicated in the work done within the Guto Bebb: I will take one quick intervention, but redress scheme. The figures released by the FCA in then I will have to make some progress. August and September on the individual performance Stephen Mosley: Is it not the case that some customers of banks—something for which the all-party group do not know that they have been sold swap agreements? called—have clearly shown that 93% of cases in the Some people have been sold hidden swaps and do not redress scheme involved actual mis-selling. So again we know about it. Does my hon. Friend not think that the have proved that there is an issue that needs to be dealt banks have a duty to inform customers themselves if with. they sign people up to such agreements? Mr Graham Stuart (Beverley and Holderness) (Con): Guto Bebb: I am grateful for that intervention. I will I echo the praise from the right hon. Member for come to hidden swaps later—“embedded swaps” is the Blackburn (Mr Straw) for my hon. Friend. Does he technical term; “hidden swaps”is a fairer way of describing have sympathy, as I do, for companies with more than them—because they are a big issue and we need to 50 employees that are not financially sophisticated and address them. which were mis-sold these products, often as a condition The setting up of the redress scheme was the reason of loans to do business, but which now find themselves why we called this debate. It has taken months to reach described as the sort of people who should have been an agreement to ensure consistency across the 11 banks able to see through the sophistry and misrepresentation involved. Originally we were told that Christmas was of the salesmen of these products? the deadline for completion. However, at this point in Guto Bebb: My hon. Friend mentions the sophistication time there are 30,000 businesses in the cohort—I think test, and I will be coming to that; it is indeed something that that figure is an underestimate, because of embedded that concerns me and the all-party group. swaps, for example, and the way the sophistication test works—so frankly the Christmas target will not be met. We have found consistently that banks are admitting a mis-sale in about 93% of cases. Had we found, in the Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab) rose— consumer mortgage market, that 93% of mortgages had been mis-sold, would we have allowed nine months to Guto Bebb: Before I take any further interventions, it pass between those findings and the situation we now is worth making this point. I was recently involved in a face? We have to ask the question: is it right that these mediation meeting with one of the banks and one businesses should be treated differently because they are customer, whom I cannot name, even with parliamentary small businesses, when we have found that there has privilege, apparently. The bank in question made it clearly been mis-selling? clear that it could not promise a date for paying redress before 2015. As such, although the intention of achieving Steve Brine (Winchester) (Con): I have many constituents, consistency is correct, we have to put pressure on the some of whom are outside this place today, whose FCA to ensure that we move at a faster pace. businesses are in limbo while they wait for this interminable One of the big frustrations felt by the businesses delay to be sorted. They are unable to press on and affected and the APPG is that since the pilot scheme employ the people they want to, to grow their businesses, was completed, the banks involved have spent upwards pay their taxes and help to grow the economy, which is of £300 million on the administration of the scheme what we all need to happen. That is the bigger point in and recruited up to 3,000 people to deal with it, yet this debate: the impact on the wider economy. by the end of September only 32 businesses had been 459 Interest Rate Swap Derivatives24 OCTOBER 2013 Interest Rate Swap Derivatives 460

[Guto Bebb] for such a test. Huge businesses can derive benefits from these products, and they will have the sophistication offered redress, to the total value of £2 million. I and expertise to understand what they are being sold. understand the complexity of getting this right, but it is However, there is concern about the decision to introduce simply not good enough for the banks to be spending a sophistication test as part of the redress scheme. that much money and for the businesses that need Anyone who takes out a swap in excess of £10 million redress not to be getting it. will be excluded from the scheme because they will be deemed to be sophisticated. The FCA has found that a Mr Mark Prisk (Hertford and Stortford) (Con): I am key aspect of mis-selling involves banks over-hedging grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way; he is doing a loans taken out by businesses. In other words, a business fantastic job. It is becoming clear to businesses in my might have a loan facility of £5 million but a hedge in constituency that, in the absence of any penalty after excess of £10 million. In such a situation, the fact that the current agreement—which, of course, is voluntary—the the bank was guilty of mis-selling would provide it with banks are just playing for time. protection within the redress scheme. That is unacceptable. We need a greater degree of flexibility on the issue of Guto Bebb: That is an important point—that the sophistication. banks are possibly playing for time—which I think will be touched on in other speeches in this debate. As for Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con): Would the ability of businesses to try to get compensation my hon. Friend also accept that the banks have made through litigation, it is important that they take action these processes unduly complex, which has resulted in to protect their positions. The redress scheme is a step delays in addressing the issues? In the case of one forward. It is not working perfectly, but I would still company in my constituency, it has taken the bank advise businesses to protect their position from a legal 16 months just to recognise the fact that the company point of view. was unsophisticated, to use my hon. Friend’s language. That is clearly unacceptable. Mr David Heath (Somerton and Frome) (LD): Will the hon. Gentleman give way? Guto Bebb: I agree that 16 months is a very long time. Even when cases are accepted into the redress scheme, Guto Bebb: I will take a final intervention for the time they seem to be taking a long time. The banks would being. argue that businesses need to engage with them, but I believe we still need to look carefully at this matter. The Mr Heath: I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving sophistication test should be more flexible, and the way and for his work. He said earlier that he could not discrepancies that I have described need to be acknowledged. name his constituents or the bank involved, but I will Another discrepancy involves the asset value. A business certainly name Chris and Angela Hays, whom I am could be excluded from the scheme because of the asset trying to help, and the Royal Bank of Scotland. Is it not value that it holds. In effect, it could be argued that a the case that we have seen a double whammy? We have business that had been lucky enough to invest in property seen a big bank using a scam on its customers and then at the right time should be excluded from the redress using every device to prevaricate and procrastinate to scheme because of that piece of luck. If the asset value avoid paying the money that those businesses need to had increased to a certain level, that could result in the survive. company being excluded from the scheme. There is also a lack of consistency. In some cases, the Hon. Members: Hear, hear. banks are ignoring the sophistication test because they believe that a customer would fail it and therefore be Guto Bebb: Hon. Members have made their feelings eligible for the redress scheme. Instead, they are moving about that intervention very clear; we all share that the customer straight into the assessment of redress. If frustration. they can ignore the sophistication test in some cases, The FCA and the banks have made it clear that the where is the consistency? A member of the all-party suspension of swap payments is a concession that has parliamentary group argued strongly on behalf of a been offered, but as yet only 1,000 businesses have been constituent who had a £12 million swap and, lo and offered the opportunity to suspend payments. A key behold, the constituent was subsequently allowed to message that this debate needs to send out is that if a become part of the redress scheme. That was an excellent business wants to request a suspension, it has to be in result for that business, but again, where is the consistency? financial distress. Some banks are stating that a business The FCA needs to look carefully at the sophistication requesting a suspension is admitting to being distressed test. and therefore needs to go into special measures. Any My final point on the sophistication test is that, if a small business would be loth to find itself dependent on business spends six months waiting to be assessed, a team of specialists from its bank’s restructuring those six months will be lost in regard to the statute of department. We need to ensure that a suspension of limitations for taking legal action. The FCA needs to payment can be offered without the need for a business recognise that, because it is potentially dangerous for to go into special measures with its bank. the businesses concerned. The delays are the reason that we called this debate, A further concern relates to the alternative products but I also want to highlight other concerns that have on offer. It has been said time and again that if these been expressed about the redress scheme. I have touched complex products are unsuitable, it cannot be right to on some of them in response to interventions. A key introduce a redress scheme in which a swap can be issue is the sophistication test. I acknowledge the need substituted by a slightly less complicated swap. It is also 461 Interest Rate Swap Derivatives24 OCTOBER 2013 Interest Rate Swap Derivatives 462 important to note that a business will be offered an Another key call is why there is no appeal process alternative product only if it has failed the sophistication within the redress scheme. There would be much more test—that is, if it has been deemed to be unsophisticated. confidence in that scheme if there were an appeals I find it difficult to understand how any alternative process. I understand that the Financial Ombudsman product other than a cap could possibly be suitable. Service offered to provide an appeals service, but the Another reason why the cap is the obvious alternative offer was rejected by the FCA. It would give some product is that if businesses had been told clearly of the comfort without complicating issues too much if, for cost of the products they were taking on board back in example, assessors working for one bank in the redress 2006-07, they would have seen that a cap would have scheme were able to provide an appeals process for offered them significantly better value for money. Why another bank in it. That may not be perfect, but it was the cap not offered? Probably because of the financial would help to avoid over-complicating what is already a imperative of the banks to sell something more complex complicated redress process and it would give businesses and more rewarding. It is thus important to highlight the confidence that there is an appeal process and that the fact that having a complex derivative rather than a they can turn to somebody else to argue their case. We cap as alternative product is a real concern. If businesses should be very concerned about having a redress scheme have been classified as unsophisticated, that issue should without any appeal process, as it goes against the principle be recognised and we should try to ensure that we of natural justice, while opening up the door to litigation, provide a cap as the only acceptable alternative product. when the whole point of the redress scheme was supposed to be to avoid litigation. Richard Fuller (Bedford) (Con): My hon. Friend mentions Embedded or hidden swaps, which are currently excluded the omission of information from the sales process; from the redress scheme, are another key issue to highlight does he also accept that the information needed was and a matter of huge concern. If we think about it, a introduced late and that only opinions were offered? hidden swap is quite possibly worse because businesses What was really going on was a sophisticated sales were not even aware that they were also taking out with process to dupe people who may have been financially their fixed-rate loan an interest rate derivative product. unsophisticated for the financial benefit of the banks. The American author, James Riley once said: Does he believe that that should mean that the people in “If it walks like a duck, and swims like a duck and quacks like charge of that process should face criminal sanction, a duck, then it must be a duck.” not just financial redress for their customers? The same point needs to be made about these hedging products. If the impact of an embedded swap is the Guto Bebb: That is certainly a call that some of the same as the impact of a separate hedging product taken organisations campaigning on this issue have made, and out with it, it is difficult to argue that the small businesses I am sure that other hon. Members and members of the that were sold those products should be excluded because all-party group will expand on that theme in their of a technicality relating to whether they are subject to speeches. the FCA regulations. I ask the Minister to respond on that specific issue. We thus need to look carefully at the alternative product issues. It is fair to argue that businesses might A publican from Aberystwyth, Mansel Beechy, was have been looking for interest rate protection, but it is sold one of these embedded products. I know Mansel difficult to argue that they would have been tempted by very well because when I was a student in Aberystwyth, an expensive product in 2006-07, when a cap offered I was financially illiterate and used to cash cheques in such good value for money at that time. I am unpersuaded the pub. I used to do that on a Wednesday evening and of the arguments for a complex derivative. pay 50p for the privilege. On a Saturday evening, I would want to cash a cheque again, and Mansel would say, “Well, make it one for £30, and I will give you back Richard Benyon (Newbury) (Con) rose— what you gave me on Wednesday, only charging you the 50p once.” Mansel Beechy thus showed me more respect Guto Bebb: I will take my hon. Friend’s intervention, and consideration, in behaving properly towards me, but this will be the last because I am conscious of the than the bank that sold him the hidden swap showed to time. him. That business had been built up over a long period. If Mansel Beechy could show to me a degree of Richard Benyon: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. responsibility that had not been shown to him, there is Many of these products were sold on the basis of a clearly something wrong with our banking sector. projection for interest rates to go up. There is a slam dunk case against some of these companies for showing Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/ a graph of projected interest rate rises when, of course, Co-op): Will the hon. Gentleman give way? the opposite happened. Surely that should be a factor when it comes to whether or not they were sophisticated Guto Bebb: I am afraid that I cannot take another about the product that was eventually sold. intervention. The issue of hidden swaps is important and needs to Guto Bebb: I could not agree more with my hon. be addressed. We need to know why businesses to which Friend. The expectations back in 2007 were that interest they were mis-sold have been excluded from the redress rates would go down, yet there were numerous examples scheme. Thousands of businesses have been mis-sold of bank sales teams informing businesses that they these products, banks have admitted that the products needed to protect themselves against a rising interest were mis-sold, and yet the redress scheme is not, as yet, rate scenario—contrary to the information that the performing as it should. I am not looking for a new banks themselves had. scheme, but I am looking for changes, and much greater 463 Interest Rate Swap Derivatives24 OCTOBER 2013 Interest Rate Swap Derivatives 464

[Guto Bebb] sense of urgency. Everyone recognised that they wanted the redress scheme to be drawn up properly, but they speed, in the scheme that we currently have; and I think certainly did not show the sense of urgency that they that we need to address some of the exclusions, which had shown when signing people up to the mis-sold are clearly unfair. schemes when it came to the question of redress. I became involved in this issue when a constituent of mine, Mr Colin Jones, came to see me. He claimed that Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD): I do not he had been sold a complex product and that, as a know whether the hon. Lady has experienced the problem result, his business had gone under. The last news I experienced by certain other Members. When the hon. heard of Mr Jones was that he was homeless and living Member for Harrogate and Knaresborough (Andrew with his mother. He has lost absolutely everything, and Jones) and I wrote to the Financial Standards Authority because his business was a limited company, it is highly about a shared case, the FSA replied that it did not deal unlikely that even if the redress scheme highlights the with individual cases. We then wrote to the Minister, fact that he was mis-sold the product and is in need of who told us to raise the matter with the FSA. We are compensation, he will not benefit from that compensation going around in circles. Do we not need a different personally. I think it wholly wrong for someone to lose body—possibly even the National Crime Agency—to his business not because he was a poor business man, get a grip on the issue? not because he made a mistake, but because he was taken advantage of by his bank. Having listened to the Natascha Engel: That is a very good point. We have trade calls, I am quite happy to say that publicly. had any number of cases where they have been passed I am delighted to note the interest in the issue that is from pillar to post. One of the terrible aspects of all this being expressed in the Chamber today, because I believe is that the individuals affected do not know where they that businesses all over the country are looking to us to can go to get justice, and they certainly do not have very give a lead. I hope that the FCA and the banks will much time to do that, because their businesses are going listen to what is being said, and I sincerely hope that the bust while they are waiting for justice. redress scheme will start to perform in the way in which it was expected to perform in January, rather than in the slow and bureaucratic way in which it has performed Kelvin Hopkins: This very morning I have been speaking so far. to a constituent who has been driven to the edge of bankruptcy by what the banks have done, and I have helped him to some extent. My hon. Friend is making a Several hon. Members rose— point about the lack of force behind the action that has been taken so far. Is there not a case for strong Government Mr Speaker: Order. More than 20 Members are seeking action now and, indeed, as the hon. Member for Bedford to catch my eye. We have also to hear, very properly, (Richard Fuller) mentioned, for criminal sanctions? from the Minister and the shadow Minister, and I envisage the debate finishing at approximately 2.30 pm, at which point we shall need to move to the next debate. Natascha Engel: Indeed, and I am going to finish on In recognition of all those considerations, I am imposing both those points. a limit of six minutes on Back-Bench speeches, with One way to make sure the banks cannot drag their immediate effect. feet in the way that they have is to impose a moratorium on the payments. That would really focus their minds. If 11.52 am the money is not coming in, I am sure they would try to settle this matter once and for all much more quickly. Natascha Engel (North East Derbyshire) (Lab): It is a The number of suspensions of payments—and only in pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Aberconwy those cases where people are suffering significant (Guto Bebb), and it was a pleasure to see him before the hardship—is an absolute scandal. The fact that 30,000 Backbench Business Committee again, although we businesses or individuals are waiting for some kind of had hoped that the position would be resolved on the redress and only 32 have had redress is also an absolute first occasion when he appeared before us. It was also a scandal. Something must be done. pleasure—here I echo the sentiments of other Members—to be a member of his all-party parliamentary group on interest rate mis-selling. The group has demonstrated Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab): My constituency also the power and effectiveness that all-party parliamentary has a business that has been affected by this. When we groups can display when they are organised around a wrote to the Financial Conduct Authority, the response single issue, particularly when the issue is an injustice of was really an apology for the banks, as though this is this kind. The Committee was delighted to be able to be just some sort of error that has been made. Does that schedule today’s debate, and I hope that we shall have as not underline the fact that there has been a lack of much effect today as we did all those months ago. urgency by the regulators, on whom we rely to act on I want to focus on just a couple of issues raised by the behalf of our constituents when they are wronged in hon. Member for Aberconwy—in particular, the idea of this way? We need more urgency from the regulators; a moratorium, but also the terrible way in which this they must get on with their job. issue has been allowed to drag on and on. It is not just the banks that are involved; the Treasury is involved as Natascha Engel: That is right and this whole scandal well, and we should also consider the role of the Financial has shown how it has been possible to pass the blame Conduct Authority. When, many months ago, members between banks, the FCA and the Treasury, and nobody of the FCA appeared before the all-party parliamentary will take any responsibility for what has been an absolute group, many of us were unimpressed by their lack of a scandal. 465 Interest Rate Swap Derivatives24 OCTOBER 2013 Interest Rate Swap Derivatives 466

I have seen this in my casework. Mr and Mrs Chadwick 12 pm buy and sell homes and their business has been very Mark Garnier (Wyre Forest) (Con): May I start by successful. These small and medium-sized companies adding my congratulations to my hon. Friend the Member are not just viable; they are successful. It is only because for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb), who has not only been of this mis-selling scandal that they are going bust. I brave in what he has done on this matter, but has shown cannot understand the logic of this: what interest does a outstanding leadership in a technical, complex issue? bank have in a business going bust and losing all its money? The logic of that is beyond me. I wish to develop a couple of points, the first of which has started to resolve itself. I am talking about I am also concerned about banks that have taxpayer the big question of the linking of consequential loss to funding, such as RBS, which has a lot of these cases. We the technical redress. Clearly, the technical redress is must look much more carefully at the link between the people’s money—that is an agreed thing, and it is only regulator, the banks and the Treasury. right that it should be paid as soon as possible. The I agree that proper criminal penalties must be imposed consequential loss was always a separate issue, and to on those banks, individuals and organisations that have have linked it was completely the wrong thing to have been proven to have been part of this injustice, and I done. HSBC has broken ranks and RBS is following also agree with the call for a moratorium. suit, and Martin Wheatley is now coming on board, saying that there should be no conditionality between the technical redress and the consequential losses claims. Steve Brine: The issue of suspensions and the length That is a good thing; it is excellent progress, and we can of time this has all taken was raised with me at a thank my hon. Friend for his work on that. business breakfast in Winchester last week. This has generated so much anger. While it was understandable Peter Luff (Mid Worcestershire) (Con): May I add that there were no suspensions while things were supposed my thanks to my hon. Friend the Member for Wyre to be done on a shorter time scale, it has now taken Forest (Mark Garnier) for the leadership that he, too, is 16 months in some cases. That is why it is causing real showing on this issue? Is it his experience, as a fellow hardship and anger, and I hope that point comes across Worcestershire MP, that this scandal, although apparently loud and clear to the FCA, which I know is listening to technical, is affecting well run, long-established and every single word this morning. deeply respected real businesses across a wide range of sectors, and that the delay is going to kill businesses that Natascha Engel: I could not agree more. I do not our constituents value very deeply indeed? know whether other Members have received a letter from Barclays today outlining, in not very easy-to- Mark Garnier: My hon. Friend is absolutely right in understand English, what it is doing and proudly what he says. The banks made an incredibly cynical proclaiming how “tightly controlled” and “heavily effort to persuade people to enter into these contracts scrutinised” the review is where, in many instances, they should not have done so. Sometimes it was the right thing to do, and I think that “whereby all the banks involved are required to develop a detailed many businesses will agree that they just got it wrong, methodology for agreement”, but we need to look after the smaller businesses that blah, blah, blah. It goes on and on and on. If this is were simply mis-sold these products. phrased in anything like the same way as the products individuals were sold, I am not surprised they did not Mark Lazarowicz: Do not the banks, or at least some understand what was going on. of them, also have to be much more proactive in identifying the people who been the business victims of this practice? As we all know, whenever we have a debate such as this, Mark Tami: My hon. Friend talks about sanctions. A more people come forward who were frightened to lot of these people were tricked at the last minute, come forward before or who did not even realise that whereby they were about to sign the loan and this clause they were victims of these schemes. It is up to the banks was put in. They were told, “Oh no, it is an added safety to be much more proactive in identifying the cases and for you.” Nothing was explained the other way and then trying to resolve them. these people are now paying the price, but the real people who should pay the price are the banks that Mark Garnier: That is absolutely right. Part of the tricked them in the first place. problem, however, is that the banks have an incentive not to get in touch with people, for obvious reasons. Natascha Engel: Not only was this a trick, but some That relates to the second point I wish to develop. It is a individuals were not able to take loans unless they technical point, but it is incredibly important in terms bought these products—that was the real scandal. The of why it is incentivising banks to delay technical redress other tragedy has been: the many individuals who have for as long as they can, and it has implications for the taken their lives; those whose lives have been ruined; financial stability of the banks. those whose their marriages have broken up; and those We should not think of these things as stand-alone individuals whose businesses have gone bust. What products, but should recognise them for what they are. happens to them under any redress scheme? Those are They are not stand-alone products; there is another side the sorts of individuals that Bully-Banks has done a of this trade. They are swaps for a reason, and it is very big job to support, and I hope that today’s debate important to understand what a swap is. Any one of our will mean that if the FCA is listening and if the banks victims will have been persuaded to take out a contract are listening, they will do something about these people, with the bank that has the beneficial effect of capping and quickly. interest rate payments at a certain level. That is a 467 Interest Rate Swap Derivatives24 OCTOBER 2013 Interest Rate Swap Derivatives 468

[Mark Garnier] trade, he takes the money from the buyer, so has a contractual agreement with them, and agrees a sale with virtuous thing and we are all familiar with the financial the seller. However, on the way to deliver the car, he planning behind the thought process, through things writes it off in a crash and is not insured. He still has such as fixed-rate mortgages. But these are not fixed-rate liabilities on both sides—he still has to deliver a car to mortgages; they are stand-alone products that relate to the buyer and has to pay the seller. That is the mess that a loan, but are not part of that loan. Importantly, many the banks are in. They have caused themselves a massive people have paid off the loan but still have the outstanding car crash and have to look after the other side of the liability on the swap. The quid pro quo of having a fixed trade. cap on interest payments is the collar that has caused so We are fully aware of the losses to the banks on the many problems for our victims, whereby they have to financial redress scheme—plus, obviously, the consequential pay a relatively high rate of interest in today’s terms. loss scheme as well. We have heard about how much has What is not fully understood is that this is not a simple been put aside, and there will be debate about whether contract with the bank, as it first appears. The bank is that is the right amount or not. However, we have heard not taking a naked bet with its customers that, in the nothing yet about the value of the liability on the other environment of falling interest rates, it has won. It is not side of the swap—the liability to institutions, most receiving as profit the penalty in the increased premiums likely to be pension funds, that still needs to be honoured. being paid in interest rates by the victim, because for a That has implications for the stability of the banks and swap to actually be a swap, there is a matching trade shows why it is important for banks to keep the redress with a third party on the other side. What the banks scheme running for as long as possible. receive in higher interest rate payments they are paying to an opposing and third-party counterpart on the Richard Fuller rose— other side. I shall now go into a bit more detail. Businesses may Mark Garnier: I see that my hon. Friend wants to want to make sure that they do not pay too high an intervene, but may I develop my point? interest rate; that is why they are persuaded, rightly or The financial redress scheme has a specific value, wrongly, to take the swaps. However, an organisation based on a number of factors—including, crucially, such as a pension fund needs to guarantee its income interest rates and time. Similarly, time to run is a key should a severe drop in interest rates, such as we have component of the value of the other side of the swap. seen, occur. It would want to take a position opposite With interest rates so low, the longer the time to run, the from that of the businesses, which are the victims. higher its value to the customer and the higher the The pension fund will forgo a rise in rates while liability to the bank. As a result, we get a built in winning the guaranteed floor rate that it will receive. incentive for the banks to delay settlement for as long as For a business to have a rate cap at, say, 7%, it will possible. With each day that goes by, the liability on the guarantee to pay no less than 5%. For a pension fund to other side of the swap is reducing. be guaranteed to receive a minimum payment of 5%, it Harry Wilson, of The Daily Telegraph, has put in would agree to receive no more than 7%. In that way, freedom of information requests to the Financial Conduct the business’s and pension fund’s interests are perfectly Authority to find out exactly what the loss on the other aligned in opposition. side of the trade will be. Amazingly, nobody seems to As both the pension fund and business are clients of have the answer. It seems inconceivable that the banks the bank, the bank does two simultaneous trades—one would not have the information. Any derivatives trading with the business, to cap and collar the rate payments, room team, especially on a swaps desk, will have detailed and the other with the pension fund, to collar and cap information on the extent of the liabilities; they have to the interest rate receipts. The bank makes a small margin, know that. Even if the swaps team does not, the risk or but essentially its liability, if everything stands up, is treasury department should know it—loads of people perfectly and oppositely aligned. That is the symmetry should know it. It is extraordinary that nobody is of liability and the basis of the swap market. coming forward with the information. The issue has been dragging on for far too long. Too Stephen Metcalfe (South Basildon and East Thurrock) many businesses have failed as a result of it and it is (Con): I thank my hon. Friend for his understandable likely that too many more have fallen into that twilight explanation of the product. I will be honest—I am new zone of bad forbearance by banks, which sometimes to this issue, which constituents have brought to my keep otherwise dead institutions alive simply because it attention. Is it possible to explain the issue to an individual is in their interests. in a phone call lasting one minute and 20 seconds? I spent the best part of the last year on the Banking That, apparently, constitutes the contract between the Commission considering the matter. It is worth noting bank and the client. that this crisis happened before the Banking Commission, the financial crisis and the rest of it. However, today the Mark Garnier: I will try to explain the issue as simply banks have to prove that they have moved on, that they as I can now. should now be allowed to come into polite society and Imagine a second-hand-car dealer. He may buy a will do the right thing by the consumer. dodgy motor on his own books and try to make as big a turn as he can, but he risks not getting his money back. 12.9 pm Now imagine a car dealer with a valuable vintage car who aligns a seller and buyer at exactly the same time. Mr Pat McFadden (Wolverhampton South East) (Lab): He takes a turn with no risk at all, and that is how a I pay tribute to the hon. Member for Aberconwy (Guto swap behaves. Now imagine that, having lined up that Bebb) and all the supporters of this debate on an 469 Interest Rate Swap Derivatives24 OCTOBER 2013 Interest Rate Swap Derivatives 470 important issue. I also pay tribute to my Treasury products would have been in a position to explain the Committee colleague, the hon. Member for Wyre Forest consequences to their customers. I think we know the (Mark Garnier) for his detailed explanation of a complex answer. aspect of this subject that probably not everyone Products were being sold, allied to another product, understands. that may or may not have been suitable for the person This is the latest in a series of issues that has corroded, buying them. The customer may or may not have fully damaged and sometimes destroyed trust between banks understood what they were buying, but they were left and their customers following the payment protection fully with the consequences of having bought it, to the insurance scandal. We should pause and consider a extent that we had the situations highlighted in this couple of features of the PPI scandal. It was characterised, debate whereby the banks pursued customers to such a first, by a refusal to admit that there was a problem; degree that they were put out of business. We should secondly, by a refusal to take responsibility for that recognise that hedging is not always wrong, and trying problem; and finally, by a huge bill for the banks to insure against risks is not always wrong, but a degree because it had taken too long to face up to those things. of understanding is important. People have to understand I wonder whether any of those lessons have really been what they are buying and the product has to be suitable learned given the way that this issue is being dealt with. for them. When the lifetime of the hedging product is Like the hon. Member for Wyre Forest, I spent much completely different from that of the loan, there is a of the past year serving on the Parliamentary Commission serious problem about that product’s suitability. on Banking Standards chaired by the hon. Member for This issue provides a really important test of the Chichester (Mr Tyrie), where we looked into the standards standards and culture in the banks after everything that and culture of the banks more widely. We found a sales has happened. They have to show whether they have culture, backed by the bonus systems, going right down learned the lessons of previous mis-selling scandals or to branch level. The banks pushed products like this, whether there has been a repeat of the pattern of often allied with a product that the customer wanted, behaviour that we saw before in which there was first a namely a loan, yet sometimes the customer was not refusal to face up to responsibility. That was followed even aware that a product was being sold to them or, if by increasing anger among the customer base and the they were, whether it was a voluntary agreement or destruction of trust, followed by a redress scheme that something they had to accept as a condition of the might have ended up being more expensive than the one loan. that might have been put in place earlier. This is also a test of the FCA. We are in the early Stephen Lloyd (Eastbourne) (LD): The right hon. stages of a new regulatory system, as the FCA has been Gentleman has hit on something really important, which in existence for only about six months. The system of is that the banks’ whole modus operandi was to sell redress that it has proposed is an important test of products that individuals wanted and slip in the interest whether it is going to be able to do its job in restoring rate swaps underneath. I am glad that he has reminded trust between banks and consumers in the face of us of that. Does he agree that it is important for these sometimes increasingly complex financial products; businesses to know that it has been agreed on the Floor of the House, and it is recorded in Hansard, that they Mr Heath: The right hon. Gentleman is absolutely will be offered compensation that aims to put them right to say that restoring trust between customers and back in the position in which they would have been if banks is a crucial element. Businesses must not only get there had not been a mis-sale, plus interest rates of redress for what they have lost but be put back into the about 8% a year? position that they would have been in and that includes the relationship with the bank, credit lines, and everything Mr McFadden: I do agree, but there is also the else that makes small businesses work. question of who gets that redress and who does not. Underneath this sales culture, we found that instead Mr McFadden: The hon. Gentleman makes a good of a culture of a duty of care to the customer there point. Culturally, we should be trying to get to a situation was—characterised by the combining of products, often in which the banks have a duty of care to their customers a simple product with a complex one—a culture of instead of marketing and developing products that are “buyer beware” that put the responsibility for fully driven by a sales and bonus culture that, in effect, says understanding and being aware of all this in the customer’s “Buyer beware” and puts all the onus on to the customer. lap, with, in many cases, the bank showing a lack of The proposed system of redress is based heavily on responsibility. the sophistication test. That leaves a lot to be desired, because unless it is very carefully designed it cannot Mr Straw: I entirely endorse what my right hon. take account of the wide variety of types of business. Friend has said. Does he accept that what made the Size and sophistication are not the same thing. It cannot banks’ behaviour even less acceptable is that such was take account of the wide variety of circumstances in the complexity of the swap products that often—and to which these products were sold or the wide variety of my certain knowledge in a case that I have dealt with—the difficulties that businesses find themselves in. person providing the loan from the bank had no proper Previous mis-selling scandals have been characterised understanding of how the hedge product was going to by years of unnecessary delay that have caused incredible work? grief to those subject to them. If there is one further lesson that should be learned about interest rate swaps, Mr McFadden: That is a really important point. it is that this process should not drag on for years. We Having heard the speech by the hon. Member for Wyre need a system of redress that learns the lessons of the Forest, I wonder how many of the people selling these past and is implemented as quickly as possible. 471 Interest Rate Swap Derivatives24 OCTOBER 2013 Interest Rate Swap Derivatives 472

12.17 pm Richard Fuller: My hon. Friend is a defender of a system of true free-market principles. He has identified Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con): I, too, pay tribute to the twin problem mentioned by my hon. Friend the my hon. Friend the Member for Aberconwy (Guto Member for Wyre Forest, which is that, in addition to Bebb), who has led this cause absolutely heroically. I am the unfunded liability cause, we have now booked the sure that Members across the House will wish to join profits and paid the bankers for going through the me in saying to my hon. Friend the Member for Wyre process that duped the people. Those involved should Forest (Mark Garnier) that I wish I could say that he face criminal sanction. had anticipated my remarks. I feel sure that his speech will stand as a landmark in terms of making this debate Steve Baker: My hon. Friend makes an interesting and these products easy to understand. point. I want to live in a free society with a free and The system of money and bank credit ought to be the commercially successful banking system, but we have to lifeblood of a free economy and a prosperous society, ask ourselves whether the current system has incentivised but as we have heard in this debate, and from across our behaviour that is fraudulent under the law as it stands. constituencies, the banking system is not the servant of The last thing we must do is allow ourselves, in a frenzy a free economy but has become its master, and a tyrannical of condemnation, to start criticising a system on which master at that. Businesses in our constituencies such as our civilisation depends, when that criticism is unjustified. Stewart Linford, furniture makers in High Wycombe, We should be looking at the law as it stands and have found themselves treated utterly appallingly. checking—carefully investigating—whether individuals have broken the law. I am particularly concerned about I hope that my hon. Friend the Financial Secretary IFRS. I do not think it complies with UK company law will not stay his hand when he criticises the financial and think it has incentivised behaviour that is probably system for what it has done. Too often, Government fraudulent. Members treat the banking system gently as if to criticise it were to criticise a free-market system. It is not a Banking ought to be simple. It ought to be about free-market system. It is heavily regulated, heavily directed connecting depositors with those who wish to borrow in by the state, and awash with implicit and explicit guarantees order to invest for productive purposes, such as buying that produce moral hazard and perverse incentives. a house or even going on holiday, but predominantly it Apart from anything else, interest rates have been should be about investing to create real resources and unexpectedly low because of the interventions of central real wealth, and to increase productive capacity and the banks. When Andy Haldane, the executive director of balance of capital invested per head, so that real wages financial stability at the Bank of England, went before increase and the cost of living goes down. Instead, we the Treasury Committee and explained that the bond have ended up with a system in which poor state intervention market bubble was the biggest threat to financial stability, from one end to the other has created so much moral he clearly stated that the Bank had deliberately inflated hazard and so many perverse incentives that it has it. The fact is that the system of money and banking is become abundantly clear that a small number of state directed. individuals—far fewer than 1% of the population—have captured the state in order to turn implicit and explicit taxpayer guarantees, or bail-out funds, into personal Stephen Lloyd: Given the behaviour of some of the remuneration. It is a disgrace. banks, does my hon. Friend agree that the Financial The banking system needs to be made honest, and Secretary and the Government should consider adding quickly, and part of that is a system of compensation a further penalty if repayments are not made within a for people who have been treated extremely badly. certain time frame? 12.23 pm Steve Baker: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab): Thank you, Madam his intervention. I want to make the case that I think Deputy Speaker, for allowing me the opportunity to that, in this regard, the banking system may have crossed speak in this very important debate. I congratulate the from mis-selling into fraud. hon. Member for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb) on the work This morning I was shown a transaction by its author he has done over the years and on bringing the matter that was part of a system in which a bailed-out bank to the House’s attention through this debate. hid losses of £1 billion on a £10 billion loan portfolio. It This issue affected successful businesses that were was done lawfully and it was enabled by the accounting trying to expand and help create more jobs in the local standard of the international financial reporting standards. economy. Some of the businesses that have visited me The way in which the IFRS accounting standard treats were successful and had excellent plans for expansion. derivatives allows people to up-front unrealised cash The really sad thing is that during their negotiations to flows as profit and then pay bonuses out of them. That change or expand their loans, it was often the case, as is probably why so many of these products have been my hon. Friend the Member for Alyn and Deeside sold. (Mark Tami) has said, that they were told right at the The right hon. Member for Wolverhampton South very last minute that, unless they accepted this clause, East (Mr McFadden) spoke eloquently about the bonus the whole thing would be shelved and they would lose system and the incentives it creates. The Government all the transactions and work they were about to undertake. should look extremely carefully at what has been done That was significant for them, because it meant having with regard to the use of IFRS accounting, the incentives to say yes or no to a very important loan. it creates and what that means for people who sell I think that such businesses are intrinsically fearful of products and take bonuses. They should also look at going to the banks, which is a real problem. The terms whether the IFRS complies with UK company law. and conditions for small businesses have changed so 473 Interest Rate Swap Derivatives24 OCTOBER 2013 Interest Rate Swap Derivatives 474 much over the past few years that they are fearful that, In summary, this issue needs urgent attention. We if they explain their difficulties to a bank, they will need a much speedier resolution and people need to be suddenly be told that their terms and conditions for a treated properly and courteously by their banks. They loan will be changed again. That is a real disincentive. should not have to be fearful of loans being rescheduled The key thing to remember is that these are people who or of being thrown out of the frying pan into the fire, genuinely are trying to do the right thing, but who are which is their real worry. Speed is of the essence, because fearful—perhaps ashamed—because they did not know these businesses provide jobs in our communities and if exactly what was going on in the first place, even they go under, it could mean not one lost job, but many though, as my right hon. Friend the Member for job losses. I urge the Financial Secretary to say what Wolverhampton South East (Mr McFadden) has said, more the Government can do to put pressure on the the people who sold them the scheme were incentivised FCA and the banks to ensure a speedy resolution. to do so in an underhand way. Often they would not make it at all clear to the businesses exactly what they 12.29 pm were entering into. We need to redouble our efforts and look in particular at why there are so many delays, Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD): It is a privilege because every delay means businesses raking up yet to follow the hon. Member for Llanelli (Nia Griffith). more debt. Like many hon. Members, I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb), who Mr McFadden: On the sales culture, what does my has shown immense leadership and tenacity on this hon. Friend have to say about the evidence that the case—not just in this debate, but more generally. Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards received If any of us had thought that the consistency surgery from the trade unions representing bank staff that said meetings that we have held on this issue were unique, that, sometimes, if branch staff did not meet their sales the turnout for the debate has illustrated the enormity targets, they would be taken aside, given special management of the problem. We should repeat, repeat and repeat and pressurised to sell more products over the next again the point made by the hon. Member for North month or two in order to meet the targets on which East Derbyshire (Natascha Engel): of the 30,000 cases, their bonuses were based? only 32 have been redressed. I was going to talk about the inadequacies of the Nia Griffith: My right hon. Friend makes a valid redress scheme, welcome though was its initiation and point. I have met people who were put in that situation the progress that has been made, but time will limit and who ended up leaving the bank because they found what I can say about that. However, I will talk later it so difficult and uncomfortable working in that sort of about the fundamental omission of tailored business culture. That does not help small businesses, which loans, which was alluded to by my hon. Friend the want a decent banking system from which they can get Member for Aberconwy. decent advice and the loans they need. My hon. Friend mentioned a constituent of mine, The worry is that the Financial Conduct Authority Mr Mansel Beechey of the Llew Du hostelry in and the banks are not doing things as speedily as they Aberystwyth. I think that my hon. Friend has spent a might and that there will be a distinct delay. We are all bit more time in that particular pub than I have over the aware that the agreement was that an independent years. Mansel Beechey and many small business owners reviewer would look at each case and that that process like him have been the backbone of the Ceredigion would be overseen by the FSA. My hon. Friends the economy, but there have been times when I have thought Members for Nottingham East (Chris Leslie) and for that we were being targeted. The number of tourism Chesterfield (Toby Perkins) wrote to the Chancellor and agricultural businesses that have come to me about over a year ago outlining what we wanted to happen. these issues has been frightening. Bully-Banks helped When the Financial Secretary sums up, will he tell us us by putting an advert in the local newspaper about the what progress has been made? scandal and many more cases came to light. We want a clear message that there will be no adverse effect for people if they tell their bank that they think Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD): Does they may have been victims of this particular mis-selling. my hon. Friend share my concern that there are yet We also want a moratorium on the foreclosure of affected more small businesses out there who are ashamed to businesses by their banks. People are really worried come forward and say that they have entered into such that, if they start looking at the issue in detail and open products because they think that it is their fault, rather the box, they might be forced to reschedule their loans than that of the banks? in an unmanageable way and that they eventually might be foreclosed on by their banks. The Chancellor and the Mr Mark Williams: We need to knock that on the Business Secretary need to send a much stronger message head immediately, because there has been a concerted to the FCA about how we want the banks to work. effort by the banks to target certain businesses. There is no need for people to be ashamed, and my hon. Friend As many Members have said, we want the quickest is right that many more cases are coming to light. resolution possible, but time limits also need to be looked at. The problem is that businesses that signed up Huw and Jackie Roberts of Minhafan Estates, a to these agreements back in 2006 and 2007 are now property development business in Aberystwyth, are in reaching the six-year limit, and they will find themselves the midst of the review. They went through the “fact in considerable difficulties if they do not get redress find” interview stage of the review six months ago and through the scheme and end up going to court. We need are still waiting to hear from the bank or the FCA. to look at the way in which complaints are handled and I want to talk about the inadequacy and even dishonesty the time limit that is being allowed. Perhaps there could of the subject access requests. A sheep farmer who be movement on that issue. came to see me obtained his subject access request from 475 Interest Rate Swap Derivatives24 OCTOBER 2013 Interest Rate Swap Derivatives 476

[Mr Mark Williams] The FSA famously stated in “Interest Rate Hedging Products—Pilot Findings” that Barclays, but it included presentation documents that “poor disclosure of break costs” he was alleged to have been shown at the time of sale, was one of which he had never seen before. History can be rewritten. The fear is that, in some of these cases, history is being “the most significant issues in assessing the compliance of a sale”. rewritten by the banks. How is it possible that poor disclosure of break costs can constitute a mis-sale when the customer is buying a Why is the FCA advising customers that the scheme stand-alone product, with all that that implies, and yet “can deliver fair and reasonable redress without them needing to there is no mis-sale if the bank buys the IRSA, conceals hire lawyers”? it from the customer and then holds the customer liable Many of my constituents are on the brink and cannot for its terms and conditions? That is unjust nonsense. If afford to hire a lawyer, but why is the FCA saying that? a feature is worthy of regulation when it is contained in Like my hon. Friend the Member for Aberconwy, I one product, why is it not worthy of regulation when it want to talk about alternative products. What is wrong is contained and concealed in another product? with this form of so-called redress is that the banks get to propose what would have happened if they had Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD): My hon. Friend behaved better. Despite the banks admitting that they is right to highlight break costs, which have been a have breached regulatory requirements, they are being serious issue for some of my constituents. Is he aware of given a second chance through the promotion of alternative court evidence given by a former bank employee who products, so they have a second bite of the proverbial said: cherry. “When pitching to a customer the most the…Sales Team Yesterday, my hon. Friend the Member for Aberconwy would try to say on the subject was that there could be break costs if the swap is broken early. Providing the customer didn’t ask, we said that the cost of the review was £200 million, and he never went into any detail as to the likely level of these costs.” then told us that it had gone up to £450 million. Despite it costing £450 million to set up the review, only £2 million Does not that underline how much of this debate has been paid out in redress. is not about complexity or understanding, but about straightforward mis-selling?

Nia Griffith: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that, in Mr Williams: That goes to the heart of the argument. certain agricultural communities, there is a huge capital The banks and the ironically named relationship managers intensive cost, which takes a long time to repay? That is were trusted by our constituents, and that trust has been a particular problem for some of our constituents. breached. I have asked the FCA for its legal advice that supports Mr Williams: That is a particular problem. The hon. the view that it should not regulate fixed-rate commercial Lady does not need to be reminded how perilous the loans. The response stated that it is not normal for the farming industry is these days; some businesses barely FCA to disclose its legal advice because, by so doing, it have the capacity to survive. could be said to have waived its legal privilege more People who have been sold tailored business loans generally, making it difficult to resist broader disclosure, have no protection because of a mere technicality. They and thereby setting a precedent that would make it have no guarantee of fair treatment from the banks. harder for it to resist disclosure in other cases. I am sure Most of my constituents who have been affected by that that is crystal clear to everyone in the House—so hedge mis-selling have been sold TBLs, although I much for the commitment to transparency. hesitate to say that they were sold them, because some The interest rate swap scandal has cost many businesses of them were not aware that they were being sold them. dear. I recently drove down one of the approach roads Most of my constituents who are affected are out in the to Aberystwyth, the largest town in my constituency, to cold, so I return to the question that I have asked see another boarded up shop. That shop was not boarded Treasury Ministers and the FCA, although I have received up three weeks ago; it is boarded up now because of the inadequate responses. I question how the FCA decides issues that we are discussing. Many people had no to interpret its principle-based regulation. I am talking concept of the product that they were pressured to buy. specifically about TBLs from the Clydesdale and Yorkshire That applies as much to embedded swaps as to stand-alone banks. products. I implore the Minister to reflect and to put pressure on the FCA to consider tailored business loans Annette Brooke (Mid Dorset and North Poole) (LD): as part of the review. They are an enormous problem. My hon. Friend is making a powerful case and I concur with what he says about tailored business loans. One of 12.38 pm my constituents, who is here in the Gallery, has been affected on a large scale and is paying £33,000 per Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab): It is a great month as a consequence of swaps. He needs to be pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Ceredigion brought into the scheme. In addition, he has a tailored (Mr Williams). The cross-party consensus in the Chamber business loan, and I concur that those need to be shows how important this issue is, and it has to be dealt brought into the framework urgently. with as quickly as possible. May I add my congratulations to the hon. Member Mr Williams: I concur with my hon. Friend. Many of for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb) on securing this debate? I us have cases like the one that she raises that suggest would have been delighted with his custom in my previous that TBLs need to be brought into this review or life as a publican. He mentioned a £30 cheque for another review of some kind. two nights out, but that must have been at least 15 or 477 Interest Rate Swap Derivatives24 OCTOBER 2013 Interest Rate Swap Derivatives 478

20 years ago if he was a student—[Interruption.] Iam buying their way out of swap products. That breakdown sorry; 25 or 30 years ago. Those must have been some in the relationship has got us to the position we are in parties if he was cashing £30 cheques for a night out so today. long ago. Many constituents have come to see me about the We have to put this debate in context. There have matter, such as Mr Dixon, who has highlighted today’s been many financial scandals—not only since 2008, but debate and the all-party group that has been set up to even before that. This is the latest scandal in the financial examine the matter. One customer of the Clydesdale services sector. We had the payment protection insurance Bank who contacted me after he had been mis-sold a mis-selling scandal, the manipulation of LIBOR rates product was in the process of losing his house. My hon. by banking institutions, which has been highlighted Friend the Member for North East Derbyshire (Natascha today, and the global financial meltdown, which was Engel) was right to talk about the impact on not just caused partly by financial institutions gambling on the businesses, but people’s lives. There are life and death financial market with other people’s money. Now we issues in some instances, because some business owners have the mis-selling of interest rate swaps. It is right for have lost their homes, livelihoods and businesses. the FCA to look into that, but hon. Members have There has not been a proper response from banks—not rightly made the criticism that not enough is happening. just to their customers, but to Members of Parliament. The hon. Member for Ceredigion was right to highlight I have written to banks to see whether they can assist the fact that only 32 of the 30,000 cases have been dealt customers in dealing with mis-selling, but I have been with so far. batted away. There has been some table tennis between Interest rate swaps are hugely complicated. I had a the FCA, the Government, the Financial Ombudsman briefing from an expert on them about eight months Service and the banks about who should take responsibility, ago, and the complex nature of how they are put and I hope that the Financial Secretary will put it firmly together makes them impossible to understand. He was on record that the FCA should deal with the matter. It an expert, but he found it difficult to explain some of should be the point of contact for businesses, Members the more complex points about them. and banks. It is worth highlighting that the banks were able to Members have talked about whether the selling culture cancel the instruments in question when interest rates of banks made the problem worse, which I believe it were going down, but the customer was unable to did. The mis-selling also went against the policy of cancel them when interest rates were rising. Not only treating customers fairly, which most of our banks have were sellers incentivised to sell them without much trotted out. When customers go to meet their business knowledge, but the financial institutions made the vast development manager or anyone else in the banking majority of the money out of them on day one, when sector, they are told that their problems will be dealt they were sold. They sold them to the customer and with and that everything possible will be done to resolve made money out of the derivative part of the product, them. However, in many of the cases that my constituents and then sold them on to a third party, who subsequently have brought to me, they have not been able to seek sold them on to other parties further down the tree. proper redress through that relationship, and that is why we have ended up in this situation. The House should take a stand and say that the Mike Thornton (Eastleigh) (LD): Does the hon. scandal was completely and utterly unacceptable. We Gentleman agree that one reason for the appalling mess should encourage the banks and the FCA to resolve the was the unfair and incredibly pressurised target culture problems as quickly as possible to ensure that small that senior managers at banks imposed on their staff, to businesses affected by the mis-selling scandal can have the extent that people had to use unethical means to redress and a proper appeals process, so that we can get keep their job? I have particular experience of that them back on their feet. If small businesses are falling culture. because of a mis-selling scandal, it is up to the House to take a stand to support them. Ian Murray: I am grateful for that intervention, because not only the FCA but the Government have to change the culture in the banking sector. My right hon. 12.45 pm Friend the Member for Wolverhampton South East Mr Robert Syms (Poole) (Con): I, too, pay tribute to (Mr McFadden), who was part of the Parliamentary my hon. Friend the Member for Aberconwy (Guto Commission on Banking Standards, has talked about Bebb) for his leadership of the all-party group on the culture in banks and the pressure to sell complicated interest rate swap mis-selling. The issue is important for products. If a customer buys a product that is not all Members, which is why the Chamber is so full. properly explained, that is surely mis-selling and there We all know of a number of cases in which people should be redress. were switching banks or wanted loans for a project, and Customers have been unable to seek redress, or to one of the last products slid across the table to them negotiate with their bank, because the banks were able was an interest rate swap. Many felt that they did not to sell on the products at great profit on day one. The have much choice but to take it. The British economy is relationship between the customer and the bank therefore showing welcome signs of starting to recover, and the broke down, because when a customer wanted to renegotiate Bank of England is pushing cheap credit into it to the contract, they were told that they would have to get the banks to lend, which is having an impact. compensate the bank for not only the interest rate lost, However, we should all reflect on the fact that 30,000 to but the proportion of profit that it had gained by selling 40,000 businesses run by serial entrepreneurs could well the product on to a third party. The break costs were go out of business before the process that we are discussing impossibly high for many people even to contemplate is finished, which would have a cataclysmic effect on the 479 Interest Rate Swap Derivatives24 OCTOBER 2013 Interest Rate Swap Derivatives 480

[Mr Robert Syms] involved in our banking industry, who will be as horrified as everyone else at what happened with the sale of these businesses with which they deal, the people who work products. With the sale of interest rate hedging products, for them and many of our local economies. The issue is however, banks allowed their desire to make a profit to not just mis-selling but whether we maintain stable override the need to be open and transparent with their economic growth and create jobs and prosperity in customers. The sellers of those financial instruments future. blinded customers with a snowstorm of financial gobbledegook. They presented a complex and risky Richard Fuller: Does not my hon. Friend find it sadly financial product as something that, if people signed up ironic that the victims of mis-selling were people who to it, would be to their benefit. In reality, nothing could had shepherded their money and built their businesses be further from the truth. carefully over many years, while the people who benefited Small companies in my Bury North constituency were those who were in it for a fast buck? have been affected, and I want to outline briefly one particular case—understandably, and for obvious reasons, Mr Syms: I do, and many of the people who have many constituents are reluctant to allow their cases to been affected have a lifetime’s work in their business—more be made public. Lavender Hotels owns and runs a small than one lifetime in the case of many family businesses, chain of hotels in north-west England. In January 2007, which are the bedrock of our constituencies. Those it took out a loan from Barclays to finance the purchase people have been key members of the community and of another hotel. A couple of months later, the bank— employed many people. Today’s debate is therefore which Lavender Hotels had banked with for more than important, as we need to give the FCA and the Government two decades—suggested that it fix its interest rates on a strong message that the authorities must get the banks the grounds that no one could predict where interest to get on with it. Things are going too slowly. As we rates were heading. heard earlier, the banks have put forward some billions The bank mentioned rate fixing, collars and caps, of pounds for compensation, but they have dealt with and stressed that those were not a profit earner for the only 0.2% of cases. Of the £3 billion that is potentially bank but merely designed to give the customer protection. available for redress, only £2 million has been paid out The bank told the customer that the agreement could be to 32 businesses, which shows that we need to speed transferred to another bank, and that it would not things up. create any obstacle to changing banks. Although the In many cases, first the capital was sucked out of term “rate swap” was initially used, it was quickly businesses and then the break clauses were such that replaced by the term “fixing”, suggesting that the bank many people could not afford to get out of the contracts. was fixing the interest rate, rather like a fixed-rate With most normal capitalist activity, if someone felt mortgage. The term “fixing” certainly suggests certainty, they could not make a go of it, they would sell their not risk, which I submit was misleading. business on. However, nobody will buy a business that That initial meeting with the relationship manager has the poison pill of an interest rate hedging product was followed by a further meeting with a salesman— because they know that it is a major drag on the although he was never described as such—who amplified business. It is not free enterprise as we know it, and I the fears of rising interest rates. At no point was any rather agree with Members who have suggested that the explanation given of the penalties that would be payable banking system has not done itself any favours. if the customer wanted to terminate the agreement. The What is so tragic about the products in question is bank did say, however, that to fix a cap or collar an that people have no way out. We need to get on with upfront fee would have to be paid, which could be as achieving compensation. Members have made some much as £20,000. Since most customers thought that good contributions today, and behind every story they such charges were excessive, they decided to go with an have told is tragedy and worry. People cannot sleep at interest rate swap agreement that meant that if interest night because they are not sure how to deal with the rates went up, no charges would be paid at all. The problem. I say to Ministers and the FCA that we need salesman never explained that he would be earning to get some speed up and get compensation paid. We commission on the deal. Indeed, it was stressed that it need to deal with people fairly, and to support and was just a service that Barclays was providing for the cherish serial entrepreneurs, who should be playing a benefit of its customers. major role in the economy’s recovery, rather than being put in a position of not knowing what will happen in a The managing director of the company agreed to week, six months or a year. We need to give them our fix—as he thought—the interest rate of around 40% of support. the company’s total loans. When interest rates started to reduce, what should have been good news turned into a nightmare and the amount that had to be paid back to 12.49 pm Barclays rose dramatically. When the company sought a Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con): I pay tribute loan to purchase another hotel the following year, it was to the sterling work of my hon. Friend the Member for forced to enter into a 10-year rate swap. The managing Aberconwy (Guto Bebb) who secured this debate, and I director said: thank the Backbench Business Committee for granting “I was put in no doubt that had I not agreed the rate swap I it time to take place. would not have been granted the loan.” The sale of interest rate hedging products to small By 2010 the customer had discovered that the interest and medium-sized businesses that simply wanted a loan rate swap agreement did indeed create a problem if they from one of our high street banks is nothing less than a wanted to change banks, and the company was told it national scandal. Let me say straight away that I know would cost over £95,000 to exit the agreement. The there are many hard-working, decent and honest people company had no alternative but to agree to its loans 481 Interest Rate Swap Derivatives24 OCTOBER 2013 Interest Rate Swap Derivatives 482 being re-priced. It had been misled into being tied “wanted to sell us their life policy cover (at £550 per person, per unnecessarily to Barclays by a financial product that month), which we insisted we did not need…We were confident was inappropriate and that I believe had been mis-sold. now that we had a great knowledgeable team working with us”. They are referring to their solicitor, accountant and The managing director told me: banker, whom they trusted as they assumed that the “Since the publicity surrounding the mis-selling of rate swaps, bank had the best interests of their business at heart. and my further investigation into the practice, I feel cheated. The statement continued: What has angered me the most is that my trusted manager, with whom I had developed such a strong relationship, lied in respect “Our banking relationship manager…discussed with us a hedging of the potential profitability of these rate swap deals to Barclays.” product that the bank said we needed…We trusted the bank, and decided we had no choice but to continue and enter into hedging As a result of those agreements, my constituents have arrangements. We were not looking for any different type of lost hundreds of thousands of pounds, but despite the lending, we have always borrowed money on standard terms…The problems caused by interest rate swap agreements, Lavender only reason we entered into the swaps was because our bank Hotels is surviving and progressing well. The company manager said it was a condition to any future lending, that we is ahead of target and continues to trade profitably. It must have these swaps…We do feel betrayed by the Bank, we had would, of course, be doing even better had it been able trusted them and worked with them for a number of years…We have kept our commitments…the bank does not realise what we to trust its bank, and not been penalised by it because of have had to do to honour our payments. It’s been very, very a totally unsuitable financial product. tough….We just need the bank to do the right thing now.” These companies are suffering and need help now. I hope that when the Minister sums up he is able to The redress scheme is progressing too slowly and must give some assurance to my constituents that he will do be speeded up. Livelihoods are at stake; those companies everything possible to ensure that the redress scheme is need action and they need it now. dealt with and pays out as quickly as possible. Understandably, people are writing to me and to other Members to ask how much longer they will have to 12.55 pm wait. We hear many stories of banks crippling and ruining companies, and we cannot go on like this. We Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con): I, too, praise my have regulators, yet we have another scandal that should hon. Friend the Member for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb) have been prevented. Were the regulators asleep on the for securing this debate and leading the campaign, and job? Those caught up in this and other scandals trusted like the previous speaker, my hon. Friend the Member their banks. Trust in the relationship between banks for Bury North (Mr Nuttall), I wish to highlight one or and their customers is a prerequisite. Clearly, there has two particular cases that constituents have brought to been no trust in this case. Many constituents have been my attention. So often in this place we discuss issues let down and we must not let it happen again. that are difficult for individuals to relate to, but on this occasion I—like many other Members—have constituents 1pm in the Gallery whose businesses have been practically destroyed by the actions of the banks they trusted. Mr Gary Streeter (South West Devon) (Con): I had a very interesting meeting two weeks ago with senior I have received only three complaints from individual regional managers of HSBC, who told me that the bank constituents about this scandal, but it is fair to assume is transforming its culture by removing from individual that since there are tens of thousands of such cases managers any sales targets: no more pressure from on across the country, many are perhaps suffering in silence. high and no more commission on individual products I suspect that just as in the cases brought to my attention, sold to a customer. If that is right, then that is significant people trusted their banks and regarded them as one of news. That is how it was when I started my illustrious their financial advisers, who would advise on the best legal career in 1978: bank managers could be trusted course of action for their business. People were not so and they were on our side. naive as to assume that the bank was not benefiting in some way, but it is fair to say that they assumed that, Last night, a few colleagues and I met with senior irrespective of any commissions paid, they were at least figures from the Royal Bank of Scotland in the west being sold a product that would be advantageous to country, as well as the managing director of RBS corporate their business. for the UK, Chris Sullivan. They were at pains to tell us how RBS is changing its culture, removing from managers I will quote from the statement of one specific case: the pressure to sell products to customers and instead “We are just two working class families…we trusted our bank, offering a service to help customers succeed and grow. and thought they were looking after our business interests. We, like other small SMEs were misled and lied to by the bank. The Mr David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con): While bank basically cornered us into taking out swaps, we didn’t have a progress is welcome, not least just before a parliamentary choice, and as we trusted them, we took the products. The swaps debate, does my hon. Friend recognise that people have were not properly explained to us, we were not told how they fully been the victims of dishonest and probably fraudulent worked and were not told about the huge exit costs….We should sales, and are now victims of a process that is characterised never have been sold these products, they were not appropriate to our business...Financially this has crippled our business, and the by delay and inaction by the Financial Conduct Authority? knock on effect is we can’t employ…people like we used to...Several It is also far too dependent on parliamentary pressure. times we tried to talk to the bank about these products, but each Can we look forward to reassurance from the Minister time they shut the door in our face…We are in the redress scheme, that there will be leadership and a timetabled delivery of but…the banks are playing a game and dragging their heels.” compensation before it is too late? That certainly seems to be the story we are hearing from Mr Streeter: I completely agree with my hon. Friend. other colleagues in the debate. I am expecting robust leadership from those on the My constituents go on to say that they moved banks Front Bench at the end of the debate, because our because the bank constituents have waited far too long. 483 Interest Rate Swap Derivatives24 OCTOBER 2013 Interest Rate Swap Derivatives 484

[Mr Streeter] the administration involved, that will be a complex journey. I intend to help them to succeed, no matter The shift in culture is to be welcomed, but the point I how long it takes. made last night and make again today is that if the Talk from bank bosses is cheap. Anthony Jenkins, the banks want to decontaminate their brand—that is what new chief executive of Barclays, says that it has learnt they are really talking about—it is not enough to change its lesson and will put things right. However, in another the way they do business today; they have to deal with constituency case, involving a company established in the past. They have to put right the wrongs of the past south Devon in 1925, the financial ombudsman determined and compensate those who have been hurt by wholesale seven weeks ago that Barclays had mis-sold a swap to mis-selling of products before 2009. the company and ordered it to put the company back in The realisation by the banks—or some of them—that the same position it would have been in if the swap had they need to change their culture is fundamental to our never been sold. Imagine the disappointment on the debate today on interest rates swaps. The banks not part of my constituents when Barclays responded just doing what was right for customers and not being on yesterday by indicating that it accepts only a tiny part of their side—instead selling them products they did not the judgment and intends to fight the rest—so much for request, could not understand and were not in their the fine words from the chief executive of Barclays. Has interest simply to rack up commission for the bank and Barclays really listened, learned and changed? It does its managers—is the cause of the problems we are not seem so. discussing today. A shift in culture is welcome, but the I welcome the fact that there seems to be a cultural banks must deal with the problems of the past. shift on the ground in some of our leading banks. This will eventually lead to public confidence being restored, That was certainly the case for my constituents, Mike which is very important. Dealing with customers differently and Di Hockin, erstwhile owners of London and today, however, is not enough. The banks have to deal Westcountry Estates Ltd, a company owning several with the past and only then can their reputations be business parks across the south-west, which is now, fully restored, as we all want them to be. The UK needs after a lifetime’s work and through no fault of their a vibrant and trusted banking sector. Chris Sullivan, own, in administration. In July 2008, RBS insisted that the RBS UK corporate managing director, insisted last if the company wished to have its borrowing facility night that this was his intention. He assured me that renewed it must enter into a swap arrangement on the every case of mis-selling, including that of London and alleged imminent threat of rising interest rates. My Westcountry Estates Ltd, is being investigated, and that constituents are experts in property, not finance. They if mis-selling is established it will compensate. I want to were given no alternative by RBS, so they signed up to a say on the record that I am prepared to take him at his three-year loan and a 10-year swap arrangement. How word, but need to see the process speeded up. does that work? It turns out that they had been persuaded As a taxpayer, I hope we will be able to sell off RBS to enter into a swap arrangement for 10 years at a rate one day, but I ask the Minister to make it clear to RBS of 6.4%. Although they had been told that the deal that it cannot go forward with any flotation until it has contained a break clause after three years, it transpired compensated properly all the small and medium-sized that this would enable the bank only to withdraw, not enterprises it has dragged down through mis-selling. the customer. They later learned that breaking the swap The message is clear: the banks have done wrong. Let arrangement would incur a penalty that seemed to them deal with the past and compensate their customers fluctuate on a daily basis, but would be millions of rapidly and fairly. Then, and only then, can we welcome pounds. None of this was known to them at the time a new dawn of helpful banking. of signing the agreement. I submit that this is a clear case of mis-selling. It got worse. The loan was bundled up with a number 1.8 pm of other troubled loans and sold on by RBS to a new Bill Wiggin (North Herefordshire) (Con): I draw the company, Isabel Assetco Ltd, which was 25% owned by attention of the House to my declaration in the Register a US venture capital company called Blackstone and of Members’ Financial Interests. 75% owned by RBS. This £1.36 billion deal was made at a 30% discount and funded with £550 million from We have a problem at the moment with the Financial RBS. A bank owned by the taxpayer transferred my Conduct Authority. It has been given the remit to act constituents’ company’s debt at a discount to a third and the banks have set aside the money, but not enough party company, lending it taxpayers’ money to do so, so has been done, or is being done, to ease the burden on the new company could set about dismantling the business British business. I have been contacted by many of my that my taxpaying constituents had spent years building constituents about the FCA, the banks and the progress up. That is an absolute disgrace. being made. Last night, that progress was slammed by none other than the chief executive of the FCA. Giving None of this would have happened but for the mis-sold a speech at the Mansion House, Martin Wheatley said: swap. That the company was put into administration “the industry is deceiving itself if it imagines that a total of unnecessarily needs to be investigated. Several of my 32 offers accepted, totalling £2 million, is adequate progress.” hon. Friends have talked about criminal sanctions for That is an admission, by the head of the FCA, that the bankers who make such decisions. I add my support progress has been pathetic. With that quote, Mr Wheatley to that call. The people who knowingly make such appears to be passing the burden squarely on to the decisions deserve to be investigated and penalised. I shoulders of the banks. It is as if the FCA, and its have no doubt that RBS is liable in law to compensate predecessor the Financial Services Authority, had not my constituents for their losses. However, because of been involved in the delays that have led to such inadequate 485 Interest Rate Swap Derivatives24 OCTOBER 2013 Interest Rate Swap Derivatives 486 progress. The FCA has the remit and the authority to case where the FCA and its predecessor, the FSA, have speed up that progress. It is inextricably linked to that failed to take appropriate action. The fund was originally progress and the entire situation. promoted, based on an information memorandum, as As one of my constituents put it to me, it appears being of low risk. That memorandum now appears from the outside as if the fraudulent, but was the FSA negligent to allow the fund “FCA is unwilling to discuss anything with a bank customer, the to continue to operate, particularly when it became British Bankers Association represents only the bankers, and the apparent that the memorandum was fraudulent? Several Financial Ombudsman Service remains buried in PPI cases.” investors in the fund have gone even further, claiming One mis-selling case in my constituency concerns a that the FSA deliberately withheld information from residential home. Thankfully, the business is still operating, the police and downplayed the serious nature of the but two of its owner’s other businesses have not been so fraud. lucky. The owner was mis-sold an interest rate swap I am sure that the Minister will want to send a clear agreement—in this case a “vanilla swap”—but the FCA message from the Government to the FCA. We need the scheme has been too slow in offering redress. Another FCA actively to work to sort out these messes and to constituent came to me today because he felt he was speed up its efforts. We need it to listen to the complaints targeted by HSBC and sold an interest rate product that and take serious action backed by meaningful compensation was wholly wrong for him and his business, but very or fines. If this is not possible, perhaps he will confirm profitable for HSBC. what changes in the law are needed to make it so. The campaign group Bully-Banks, which I am sure Finance is complicated, but the FCA is supposed to be has contacted many Members here today, highlights the sufficiently expert to appreciate what is going on and precarious financial situation of the many businesses then have the teeth and nerve to act. Any bank must affected. People are up at night worrying about their prefer to follow the FCA instructions— bank and whether they will receive redress. As Mr Wheatley admitted, only 32 businesses have agreed redress out of Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. I the many thousands of businesses affected. That is not apologise to the hon. Gentleman. I am listening so good enough. The country and the Government are intently to every Member’s contribution that I forgot to focused on business for our economic recovery. We all look at the clock. know that more businesses mean more people in work, but with the FCA redress scheme operating at a snail’s 1.14 pm pace, there are many thousands of businesses that will not be making those investments that we want them to; Caroline Nokes (Romsey and Southampton North) they will not be expanding or hiring more staff, until (Con): I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for they receive redress and these matters are finally concluded. Aberconwy (Guto Bebb) on his tireless work to bring The FCA’s chief executive contends that the banks this matter to our attention, on having secured this are to blame for the speed at which redress is being second debate and ensuring that so many colleagues are offered to affected companies. According to several here today and on his enormous hard work as chair of ongoing cases in my constituency, the banks are also to the all-party group on interest rate swap mis-selling. blame for a lot more. One business run by a constituent The last time we debated this subject, I was aware of has already ended up in administration. It changed only three constituents affected by interest rate swap banks from HSBC to Lloyds TSB and was then badly agreements and described it then as a niche problem. advised. It seems that these two banks feature in practically Since then, however, the number of constituents affected— all of my casework. My constituent was advised to set that I am aware of—has doubled to six. While the up a factoring account, which then disrupted his business, problem affects only a small number of constituents, drove away his customers and caused problems with his the figures involved are eye watering—for two of my cash flow. This was a high street bank once again constituents, the sums run into several million pounds—but showing a serious error of judgement. It poorly advised what has struck me is the features they all have in a business owner in my constituency, which led to that common: they are all small business people working business being driven into administration. In this case, hard to build up and expand their businesses. Whether the Financial Ombudsman Service protected the bank in student lets, the leisure industry or farm diversification, after an investigation owing to a lack of documentation. they have all sought, ostensibly with the help of their In yet another case of a bank not operating as it banks, to grow their business, provide more employment should, constituents of mine, attempting to grow their and greater opportunity in the local area and, of course, free-range egg and cider business, in the face of weak help our economy. Some have quite impressive premises; product prices and rising expenditure, received a support others are literally run out of a garden shed or a room loan from their bank, Lloyds. Despite my constituents’ above the garage, but until they were unwittingly sold a winning several high-profile contracts, however, Lloyds product quite unsuitable for their circumstances, they started to put what has been labelled as “unrelenting had all enjoyed good relationships with their banks—those pressure” on the business. The bank gave my constituents frankly are now in tatters. a deadline to repay their loan and advised them to find Over the last few days, undoubtedly like other Members, an alternative bank. It then refused to release the ownership I have suddenly started receiving updates from the documents that would have allowed my constituents to banks about the progress they are making, setting out sell a parcel of land, which would have repaid their debt how they are compensating customers mis-sold these to Lloyds and allowed them to move banks. products and in my view trying to gloss over what have The Connaught Income Fund might be familiar to to date been quite unacceptable delays. I cannot repeat the House. I know that a number of parliamentary what the managing director of the Landish Group, colleagues are involved in this matter. It is yet another which operates in my constituency and the constituencies 487 Interest Rate Swap Derivatives24 OCTOBER 2013 Interest Rate Swap Derivatives 488

[Caroline Nokes] having to work to the limit every day, seven days a week, just to make sure that he can make the repayments on of other hon. Members, said to me about the update I the loan. forwarded him from his own bank. Its language was I was somewhat relieved today that my constituent quite unparliamentary, so I will not repeat his words, did not turn up wearing a snail suit, which he was but I can understand his frustration. threatening to do—sadly, it was unavailable—but I am As we have heard, the banks have collectively spent conscious that Bully-Banks is organising some sort of more than £500 million on their own administrative snail racing today. I have no idea whether it has taken costs, but in nearly 16 months they have delivered only a place yet, but I can well understand why the snail has handful of decisions; and only 32 businesses have received become the emblem of the campaign. I sincerely hope any payments at all. It strikes me that a number of key that the Financial Secretary will act to help these small issues must be addressed. First, on the speed of redress, businesses—which are, after all, the lifeblood of our I would like to reiterate what my hon. Friend the economy, but have found themselves caught up in this Member for North Herefordshire (Bill Wiggin) said nightmare—and make sure they are given swift and fair about the snail’s pace of payments. It is painfully slow, redress after all this time. but it was notable that as this debate drew close, there was a flurry of updates and self-congratulatory crowing from some of the banks about how they had made 1.20 pm contact with 96% of their customers. Well done! How Chris Heaton-Harris (Daventry) (Con): I echo everyone about paying back some of the money? else’s congratulations to my hon. Friend the Member Secondly, we need to separate direct and consequential for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb) on driving the campaign losses. One of my constituents had his decision from forward in such a passionate way. I also thank my hon. Barclays on 8 July. The bank admitted that he had been Friend the Member for Wyre Forest (Mark Garnier) for mis-sold and said that the swap would be torn up explaining to me something that I thought I understood and exchanged for a simple cap at a cost of £29,000 and for proving that I did not in fact understand it—indeed, and that, allowing for the cost of the cap, his direct I am now worse off in my understanding of swaps than costs—£1.35 million—would be returned, but four months I was before he started speaking. on, he has seen no sign of that money. He placed a I am here because I want to talk about two constituency consequential loss claim at the beginning of August, cases. Many Members have raised individual points, which has not yet been accepted, declined or even and each case seems slightly nuanced in different ways. discussed, and Barclays will not return the £1.35 million My constituents simply went to their banks for a loan that it acknowledges it owes him until it has agreed the and came away with a product that they did not expect consequential losses, which it will not even talk about. I to come away with—a loan and a swap, or just a entirely endorse the call from my hon. Friend the Member straightforward swap. In the first debate we had on this for Aberconwy for the direct and consequential losses subject, I mentioned a constituency case involving a to be separated, so that the banks can crack on and gentleman called Philip Derbyshire of Spirit Motors. refund some of the money owed, allowing businesses to He banks with Lloyds and was sold a product not just invest, employ people and carry out redevelopment that as a loan or a swap, but as a protection for his business—if might best take place at this time of year. he had subsequently sold his business or passed away, Thirdly, there is the thorny problem of what constitutes the product would have become an asset for him. a sophisticated customer. Two of my constituents were A number of people have talked about not understanding judged to be sophisticated and so, along with 10,000 others, the product that was sold to them—that was well disclosed were excluded from the FCA redress scheme. One was previously—but many were also unaware of the magnitude deemed to be sophisticated despite his having no finance of the break cost or mark-to-market, as it is called. director; having never heard of a swap before he was Banks said when the product was sold that they were sold one; doing his own accounts on a spreadsheet; unable to provide indicative figures for breakage costs, having no in-house accountant; not being a limited but it is absolutely obvious that this was not the case. company or even registered for VAT; and literally running The banks simply chose not to provide a scenario at his business out of a garden shed. I do not think it could that time. In the cases I have dealt with, my constituents get much less sophisticated if it tried. took bank advice on what were very complicated products. Mr Derbyshire has had an interesting time of late. He Bill Wiggin: I am most grateful to my hon. Friend for has been dealing with the lawyers from Lloyds, because giving way. I hope she needs the extra minute. Does she he, like many others, had an interesting waiver—a agree that an arbitrary limit on the number of employees disclaimer—in the hedge confirmation letters he received. is no way to determine sophistication in relation to Lloyds’s lawyers have denied all liability and hidden financial products? behind the waiver, which has a cash value in his contract of about £5,000, against a claim of well over £1 million. Caroline Nokes: I certainly agree with my hon. Friend Slater and Gordon, Mr Derbyshire’s solicitors, have about that. described the case of mis-selling by Lloyds as unbelievably All my constituent is asking for is the chance for what shocking. Lloyds’s lawyers’ comments in response to happened to his business to be reviewed, because of the Mr Derbyshire’s claim were quite interesting. They said situation he now faces—owing to the swap product, the that the account of the meeting at Mr Derbyshire’s fees, the charges and the circumstances of the product, home with a Lloyds representative was inaccurate and an initial £3 million loan has spiralled to a massive debt that he had “put a gloss on it”, vehemently denying that of £9 million in just five years. The product far exceeds it had been asked whether Mr Derbyshire’s company the term of the loan, time-wise. He has found himself was likely to breach any of the bank covenants at the 489 Interest Rate Swap Derivatives24 OCTOBER 2013 Interest Rate Swap Derivatives 490 end of the financial year, which ended on 30 November Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. 2009. Mr Derbyshire completely contests this. He Lots of hon. Gentlemen keep referring to the Gallery, remembers the question with complete clarity—and I and they need to be reminded that doing so is a procedural believe him completely—and his response to it. Indeed, motion that causes a Division. Perhaps I could help in the end, Mr Derbyshire did not breach the terms of them by suggesting that they say that their constituents the covenants, but by then the damage from the waiver are following the debate “closely”, “intently” or “not in the contract was done. far from the House”, so that we can avoid any confusion According to the Bully-Banks survey, 30% of Lloyds about any unfortunate procedural vote that might be customers are classed as “sophisticated”, as my hon. triggered. Friend the Member for Romsey and Southampton North (Caroline Nokes) described. Mr Derbyshire has told me Andrew Jones: Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. his level of education. He is a fantastic businessman; he We do not want any procedural confusions—I am always might not have been the world’s most educated man. As lost by the procedures here anyway—but I am quite such, he is ineligible, because he is “sophisticated” in sure that this debate is being followed closely from financial matters for the purposes of the FCA review— somewhere very near to where we are. obviously that is a matter of judgment on the part of The companies in my constituency have provided me his bank and himself. Mr Derbyshire has been a pressing with much detail. They have been frank in explaining individual. He wrote a personal letter, putting his case some of their personal commercial circumstances and directly to the Lloyds chief executive—and of course, providing me with access to some of the supporting no one ever gets a reply to such a letter. Mr Derbyshire papers, so that I could see the whole thing—the background believes he has been treated with utter contempt by his and implications for their companies. I have heard of bank—a bank that he used to have a huge amount of the challenges that companies have faced with cash-flow respect for and with which he had dealings for a long problems; of companies having to sell assets simply to time. generate enough cash to pay their banks; of companies The second case involves my constituent Mr Solanki, having to delay investment; of companies having to who owns Ashdown House residential care home, a make people redundant simply to take cost out of the small home that serves the aged local community with a business and raise cash to pay their banks; and of specialised and dedicated dementia unit. Back in early company managers enduring sleepless nights and desperate 2006, he was approached by the manager of his bank, worries. I have even had a case where a company was Barclays, who convinced him that, as interest rates were put into administration. In that case, the business owner more than likely to rise, he should buy a 20-year interest believes it was done by the bank purely to avoid its rate hedging product to protect the business. The product mis-selling liabilities. was way beyond Mr Solanki’s technical understanding Overall, this issue has had a detrimental impact on and abilities, so he was referred to an “expert” at many businesses. However, as we have heard from colleagues BarCap, who convinced him that rates would rise from across the country, it is not a local issue; rather, it significantly and that the product would protect him. affects people up and down the country. The collective Neither the BarCap salesman nor the bank manager effect is a detrimental impact on the entire economy. explained the risks of the product; however, Mr Solanki I know that the problem has been recognised and that was advised that it was transportable and easy to exit. the redress scheme has been created, but I do not think Mr Solanki and the adviser never physically met— that that is good enough. More needs to happen. The everything was done over the phone—which must in speed with which the scheme is proceeding needs to get some way be non-compliant. a lot faster, because we need a swift resolution to this Soon after Mr Solanki had taken out the product, issue. Businesses are haemorrhaging cash, and they are interest rates fell sharply, and we all know what happened still facing the problems that I have outlined. In the vast from there. Because of the cost he was paying for the majority of cases, resolution will result in a judgment of product, which ended up being more than the mortgage mis-selling. It will also bring clarity and, consequently, he had taken out on the business in the first place, he an ability to plan for the future. Businesses are in a state was unable to maintain the level and standard of the of near-suspended animation until they get that clarity. home. As occupancy fell, the company was forced to lay The one way to deliver that speed is to bring an end off staff and carry out patchwork repairs wherever to all payments during the resolution process. That possible. Much has happened since 2009, but essentially would help companies with cash flow, and provide he is in a terrible place because of these awful products. an incentive for the financial institutions to get on with Redress needs to happen; it needs to happen quickly. it. Progress has simply been too slow. The FCA is at least now publishing some data, which is a help. As 1.26 pm of 27 September, the review population stood at Andrew Jones (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (Con): 27,989 companies, some classed as sophisticated, some I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Aberconwy not. Of that number, 16,236 have been classed as non- (Guto Bebb) on securing today’s debate and on his sophisticated, of which 438 have gone all the way through excellent work in leading the all-party group, of which I the process and had an additional redress outcome am a member. He has done much to progress this issue. communicated to them. That represents a hopeless rate In recent months, I have met many companies in my of 2.7%, after months and months of work, and it constituency on this issue. I have been struck by the involves only a communication, not a conclusion. sheer scale of the problems that they have detailed to I have been told by the FCA and by the banks of the me. I will not name any of the businesses, but I can see number of people recruited to deal with the issue and of some of them in the Gallery and I am grateful to them the importance that they attach to it. I am sure that for the— people have been recruited, but that is simply a measure 491 Interest Rate Swap Derivatives24 OCTOBER 2013 Interest Rate Swap Derivatives 492

[Andrew Jones] Mr Evans runs a highly successful packaging business that deals with many of the pharmaceutical companies of input. A process is designed to achieve an outcome, in this country. He has often had offers to buy the and the outcome is not having a process. The process is business, but he has resisted because he sees it as a not working. I want us to send a message from this family business that has given him security and that will place that the impact on UK business is being recognised, give his family security in the future. Little did he know that the pace of the process is unacceptable, that the that the biggest danger of him losing his business would financial institutions and the regulators will work to be created by the bank with which he had such a good improve that, that we in this place will be watching their relationship in the past. progress and that the Government will apply appropriate If there is a bit of good news to come out of this pressure. This is issue needs to be resolved very quickly. debate, it is that HSBC has announced that it will separate the technical redress from the consequential 1.31 pm loss. I hope that all the other banks will come together and agree to do that as well. Mr Evans has been Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD): I, reluctant to accept an offer of technical redress because too, pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for he thinks that it might compromise his consequential Aberconwy (Guto Bebb) for the work and energy that loss. He might now be in a position to take that money, he has put into this matter. The businesses in my however, and pursue his consequential loss at some constituency would certainly like to thank him for point in the future. I shall finish by quoting a few words giving them hope of a successful resolution to some of from the end of an e-mail from Mr Evans. He said: their problems. “The mis-selling was a scandal. The resolution is an even The banks seem to have adopted a herd mentality. bigger scandal.” When one of them discovers a profitable financial product, all the others have to pile in as well. It makes me wonder 1.37 pm what work the banks actually did, before interest rate swaps started to be sold, to set out the risks to their Sir Gerald Howarth (Aldershot) (Con): I join everyone customers. They might well have done some work on else in congratulating my hon. Friend the Member for their risks themselves, although taking a turn on both Aberconwy (Guto Bebb)—and also my hon. Friend the sides of a swap and putting none of their own resources Member for Wyre Forest (Mark Garnier), whose banking at risk probably involved very little risk to them. There career was much more distinguished than my own—on might be more risk now that they are to be held to initiating this debate. I hope that the message will go account and might have to pay for consequential loss. I out to the British people, and particularly to small am sure that there are many people in the banks who do businesses, that Parliament understands their grievances the important work of horizon scanning. It would be and is prepared to be robust in addressing them. We interesting to know whether they examined the scenario look to the Government to be equally robust in their of how very low interest rates would affect their clients. response to the debate. I also want to pay tribute to Bully-Banks. It is a I want to raise the specific case of Pacer Marine, a self-help group that has brought people together and boat business that provides chandlery services and sells given them more confidence to take on the banks and day boats, rigid inflatable boats and the like. It is pursue their rights. I attended a Bully-Banks meeting in located just 10 minutes from junction 4 of the M3, so if south Wales, which gave me an indication of the scope any of my right hon. and hon. Friends would like to and scale of the problem, and of the different businesses take advantage of that business, they should please do involved. It became clear that a particular class of so. The principals of the business, Dennis Davis and his business that seemed more likely to be targeted by the son Kevin, are constituents of the Secretary of State for banks was the well-established business with a fair Health, my right hon. Friend the Member for South degree of security, often in the form of property. That West Surrey (Mr Hunt), but their business is located in description certainly applies to a constituent of mine, my constituency. My right hon. Friend is as concerned Mr Evans from Ystradgynlais. He is seeing his way about this matter as I am. through this process at the moment, and his business is Pacer Marine moved in 2005. Mr Davis and his son now secure, but he is still desperate to ensure that had previously been renting premises, but they found a Barclays, which he believes has treated him very badly, place to buy in Aldershot. They went to their bank for a puts his business back into the same condition that it normal commercial 25-year mortgage, but that was not was in before. available. Dennis Davis has described his discussions Mr Evans managed to get a facility with Barclays, with NatWest: and he was just about to sign it off when a salesman “The bank were fairly aggressive from the start. Our 2 corporate appeared. His name was Mr Shafto—never has a man managers came along to see us, then told us about the hedging/rate been more appropriately named. Mr Shafto, who was swap, and that they would only give us a ten year fixed mortgage with a further 5 years. We wanted a 20/25 year term. They very active in south Wales and the west of England, told charged us a greater rate than normal although we challenged Mr Evans that he had better sign up quickly because them on it. The main reason for the hedge/swap was because, in there were lots of victims—he probably used the word their words, they said rates never go down. Well, as we all know “customers”—who were desperate to see him, and he now, they did. They then at another meeting introduced a third needed to get on a train to go and see some more. Mr person who did the deed. Because of the position we were in we Evans signed off on that agreement after only a short agreed to it, but we had always felt that we had been mugged.” discussion. Surprisingly, he did not have to make use of I have done an interest rate swap deal, so I know that the facility, so he ended up with the swap without they are extremely complex. One wonders what on having used the facility. We have seen instances of these earth the Royal Bank of Scotland was doing trying to swaps being mis-sold in the past. present this sort of opportunity to a very small business. 493 Interest Rate Swap Derivatives24 OCTOBER 2013 Interest Rate Swap Derivatives 494

The documentation provided by RBS is interesting. Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con): Part of the background it gave included this statement: Will my hon. Friend give way? “Loan serviceability is tight…so there is a ‘condition of sanction’ that an interest rate management tool be put in place to protect Sir Gerald Howarth: If my hon. Friend will forgive you from variable base rate”. me, I will not, as other hon. Members wish to speak. Protecting interest rate liability is a perfectly sensible We have Mr Chris Sullivan, the chief executive of the issue to discuss, but we should note that this was a corporate banking division—a very big wig in the Royal condition of sanction. In a market update, the bank Bank of Scotland—saying that he is committed to the interestingly pointed to all the reasons why interest “fair and timely treatment” of the bank’s customers. I rates were unlikely to go down and more likely to go up, say, “Thank you very much,” to Mr Sullivan, because yet the memo acknowledged: his letter was dated 3 August 2012 and yet my constituent “There were mixed views from you on base: you saw the has still seen no action. It is high time that the banks possibility of cuts of between half to 1%”. understood the gravity of the situation and the concern The bank was recognising the concerns of the customer, felt by the public. It is high time that they understood but actually trying to make the case that the customer the risks they pose to businesses and the fact that they was likely to be wrong and that interest rates were more are damaging the United Kingdom by failing to address likely to go up so that the hedging proposal could be these concerns. They must do so forthwith, and the put to him. Government must give them every help so to do. I hope that eventually—indeed, soon—our constituents who The person involved was an employee of another have put their money on the line to try to generate part of RBS, so his interest was to make the most wealth for our country and improve the economy will money for his unit by exploiting the uninitiated customer be given a better deal. and flogging him business that he did not understand. I asked Mr Davis, “Why did you go into this? Did you consult a lawyer.” He responded by saying: 1.44 pm “We trusted the bank. Our business is boat chandlery, not George Freeman (Mid Norfolk) (Con): I am grateful financial wizardry. We thought we were getting the best advice for the opportunity to speak in this important debate, from them. We never thought we would have to go to Peckham and I want to add my name to those of other colleagues Market and deal with a bunch of Del Boys.” in paying tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for That was how the people in the business felt about it. Aberconwy (Guto Bebb) for his leadership and to the Both my right hon. Friend the Member for South Bully-Banks campaign. I commend my hon. Friend the West Surrey and I raised this issue with Stephen Hester Member for Wyre Forest (Mark Garnier) for enlightening in June 2012. Needless to say, we got some sort of reply us all on how these mechanisms work, and I am grateful from something called “Group Executive Office”, whoever for the work of the all-party group, of which I am those people are, but the matter remains unresolved to happy to be a member. this day, notwithstanding the fact that when I visited my I want to speak about the context in which we need to constituent at the end of August or the beginning of view this issue, based on my own experience. I believe September, they were due to have a meeting with RBS that this is the end of a banking boom-and-bust and to go through the process which, as many right hon. bail-out, which speaks volumes about the role of banking and hon. Members have mentioned, moves a snail’s in the economic crisis that we face. On the basis of my pace. Two months on, we are no further forward. This is previous career in small businesses in East Anglia, it an absolute disgrace. We have to be clear that although seems to me that the big bang, along with all the many the banking system and the banking business are important good things, triggered a major cultural and financial to the prosperity of the United Kingdom, the banks neglect of the real bread and butter economy on the have a lot to answer for. ground. Over the last 15 or 20 years, Norfolk has certainly seen a wave of bank closures, a “computer Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con): I was really taken says no” culture, and a neglect and undermining of by what my hon. Friend the Member for Harrogate and what was traditionally viewed as the backbone of our Knaresborough (Andrew Jones) said: perhaps the FCA local economy, but what became in recent years, particularly should stop all repayments to banks until these problems under the last Government, rather unfashionable and, are sorted out, certainly in specific cases. That might dare I say it, boring for the bankers of today. help the constituent of my hon. Friend the Member for Norfolk now sits on the cusp of a major economic Aldershot (Sir Gerald Howarth). renaissance—in life sciences, in engineering and in energy. I thank the Government for investing in the infrastructure Sir Gerald Howarth: Several measures have been but in that sector the banks have largely been irrelevant, suggested during the debate and I hope that the Government in my experience, to such early-stage companies because will respond to them. I hope, too, that the FCA will they are too risky. Those companies usually rely on respond more robustly than it has up to now. venture finance from angels, and corporate venturing from customers. My hon. Friend the Member for South West Devon We thus need to ask ourselves some big questions (Mr Streeter) mentioned a meeting with Mr Chris Sullivan. about the banks’ role as our economy goes forward. Of Interestingly, he wrote to my right hon. Friend the course the banks play a crucial part. America has Member for South West Surrey: 20,000 banks and a new one is started nearly every “As a Group, we are committed to the fair and timely treatment week, and I believe that our banking sector and our of our customers”— financial services sector is one of our greatest and most what a fantastic and admirable sentiment! innovative sector. We sometimes talk about the City as 495 Interest Rate Swap Derivatives24 OCTOBER 2013 Interest Rate Swap Derivatives 496

[George Freeman] 251,000 jobs that they would have been able to create otherwise. More than 30,000 small businesses still face if it comprised just four or five big banks; in fact, it is a long delays, and fewer than 7% of claims being considered fabulous crucible of financial innovation that should be by Royal Bank of Scotland had reached the redress celebrated and encouraged. The problem lies with the stage by the end of the month, while nearly five times as few big banks at the top that were bailed out by the last many—32%—had reached that stage at Barclays. Just Government in such a way as to see them sitting on too 2% of those whose cases have been deemed eligible for many real businesses in the real economy that we need review have accepted offers of redress. The banks have, to grow and support. I believe, set aside £3 billion for redress purposes, and I am going to speak about three of my constituents less than £2 billion has been paid to just 32 businesses who have suffered as a result of the problem we are so far. debating. Mr Andy Keats is a local entrepreneur who We need a speedy and fair process for redress and built up a number of companies—in this case, a successful compensation. I urge the Minister to use all the mechanisms 13-year-old company with 30 local employees, which is at his disposal to encourage the FCA to accelerate its about to be sold for £3.5 million. When Mr Keats handling of claims, to ensure that the banks are not decided that he wanted to move his banking from RBS allowed to kick them down the road, to separate direct to Barclays, RBS stopped passing on the sales income and consequential losses, and to ensure that the settlements from credit and debit card sales in the business. The are fair. We must be careful not to define consequential business went insolvent within six weeks, and for the losses in such a way as to undermine the potential for last four years, he has had to deal with RBS and future SMEs to raise funds from the banks. NatWest and has had to face a series of major issues We are lucky enough to have a Minister with a and challenges, to which I have been party. I have seen glittering career in finance and small business behind at first hand banks not responding and when they do, him, and, I do not doubt, a glittering career in politics ignoring previous communications, and passing on debts ahead of him. Our group could not have a more doughty to debt collection companies. and outspoken campaigner and supporter of our cause Andrew Bridgen: Does my hon. Friend agree that one on the Front Bench. I urge him to bring to this issue the explanation for the banks’ lack of enthusiasm to get on skill that he has brought to other issues with which he and pay out compensation is that if businesses that have has dealt, and to ensure that it is viewed in the context gone bankrupt have no access to the redress scheme, of the wider banking crisis, whose resolution will enable there is no incentive for the banks to grasp this nettle, so our economy to recover properly. the Government need to do something to force their hand? 1.51 pm George Freeman: My hon. Friend makes an excellent Ian Swales (Redcar) (LD): It is a great pleasure to point for which I am very grateful. speak for the first time with you in the Chair, Madam Mr Keats has also pointed out that the solicitors Deputy Speaker. acting on behalf of the bank sometimes take court I, too, congratulate the hon. Member for Aberconwy action without serving necessary notice. (Guto Bebb), not only on securing the debate but on his I cannot name the second constituent because, like so fantastic leadership of the campaign and the comprehensive many in these circumstances, he wishes to remain speech that he has made today. These debates show anonymous. He is a leading local business man and Parliament at its best, although it is a little worrying something of a pillar of the community. His business that the banking industry seems to move tortoise-like was pushed into accepting interest rate derivative products between them, and to take on the characteristics of the by unscrupulous bank salesmen. He has filed legal hare only during the few days before and after they take action against his bank so that the statute of limitations place. Perhaps we just need to have more of them. does not time out on his claim, which is a very real As I spoke in our last debate on this subject, I shall threat. not repeat everything that I said then, but I do want to The third constituent is Paul Adcock, the managing say something about the question of advice. Small director of Adcock’s of Watton, a great family business businesses typically have an accountant and a bank, on the high street of a great Norfolk town. He was one and in the past have typically relied on both to be on of the first campaigners to make a complaint and a key their side. However, it is clear from the mis-selling leading light in the Bully-Banks campaign. I want to scandal that they should have been given independent pass on my thanks, on behalf of my constituent, to my financial advice, because the banks were no longer on hon. Friend the Member for Aberconwy because the their side, and were now treating them as potential campaign has been a huge help to him. Adcock’s, a consumers of sophisticated products. major local business and a pillar of the local establishment, If the banks insist on not being on the side of small racked up £175,000-worth of unscheduled charges. In businesses and on treating them primarily as sales prospects, September this year, Barclays finally settled. I want to we should be thinking about the regulations. We should put on record my constituent’s thanks for doing so. be thinking about what sort of advice the banks should This is not just a local issue. It is an enormous issues be telling their clients to seek, about what disclosures of that runs across our economy. The numbers are eye- commission they should be making, and about other watering. The Bully-Banks campaign has estimated that matters that would be the norm if the banks were this mis-selling scandal has cost small businesses more selling to private individuals. After all, many of the than 400,000 jobs in our economy, with £1.7 billion a businesses that we are discussing are not much bigger year lost to the Treasury. It has led directly to the loss of than the affairs of a private individual. I hope that the 162,000 jobs, and to the inability of SMEs to create Minister will respond to that point. 497 Interest Rate Swap Derivatives24 OCTOBER 2013 Interest Rate Swap Derivatives 498

Some of my constituents, like those of other Members, simply drop off the banks’ lists? If that is the case, I are following today’s debate closely. Theirs is a very think that we should be very concerned about what the familiar story. Stephen Lilley wanted a loan, and stated banks are doing and what they are incentivised to do. explicitly that he wanted to pay it down as quickly as There has been good news this week about the separation possible. However, he found himself locked into a long-term of compensation from consequential loss. Both the fixed deal involving a fixed amount of money. Roy constituents of mine who are following this debate Myers turned up to sign the papers for a fairly large particularly closely have received money in the last few loan, only to find that clauses were being inserted at the weeks. Why, Members may ask, should they be at the point of signing. He had no time to consider what was front of the queue? The two of them have been prepared happening. to go very public—they have even appeared on television— A point that I do not think has emerged clearly today and, amazingly, the banks appear to have moved them is that the businesses that are involved in such arrangements to the front. Cynic I may be, but I would guess this was are effectively locked into their existing banks, and part of a process of dealing with the most vocal people cannot get out. There has been some predatory behaviour first, and of course it should not be like that. on the part of banks in those circumstances. A business The question has been raised of whether criminal in my constituency which, partly because of the banking activity has taken place. I think that there is a whole arrangements, was in heavy weather financially, found spectrum ranging from relatively innocent bank employees, itself having to pay an extra £500 a month for a “special selling something that they have been told to sell, to relationship manager” who did not actually do anything. clear misrepresentation, lies and so forth. I think that That was merely a way of extracting yet more money Bully-Banks is finding that the same names recur in from the business. In another case—we heard of a some cases, and I think that when what is clearly similar example earlier—a life insurance policy was criminal activity has taken place, those involved should forced on a constituent who did not need it. People have be prosecuted. very little room for manoeuvre when they are locked We have all talked about the need for extra pace. I into their existing banks. hope that the Minister will put maximum pressure on I welcomed last year’s decision by the FCA, but the banks and the FCA to speed up the process, and will progress has been painfully slow. I was present when show that the Government are on the side of small Barclays turned up at the all-party parliamentary group, businesses and our constituents. many months ago, and convinced us that it was organising a great big operation and that things would move very swiftly from that point onwards—which, of course, 1.58 pm they did not. Meanwhile, the lives of more and more businesses and individuals are moving on, and things Neil Parish (Tiverton and Honiton) (Con): It is a are happening to them. A couple of months ago, one of great pleasure to see you in the Chair, Madam Deputy my constituents who is a member of a support group Speaker. I congratulate you. I also congratulate my was speaking to a woman who was ill at the time, and hon. Friend the Member for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb) who has subsequently died. That is another person to on opening the debate, and congratulate him and his whom the banks are no longer having to talk. Committee on all the work they have done. A great many businesses have gone bankrupt. The In mythology, David felled Goliath. [HON.MEMBERS: hon. Member for Harrogate and Knaresborough (Andrew “It is in the Bible!”] It is in the Bible, but it is also Jones) raised a point that had not occurred to me slightly mythological. [HON.MEMBERS: “It happened!”] before. If it is true that the banks will not have to If Members have absolute proof, that is fine. Anyway, I compensate those behind bankrupt businesses, they want to make a serious point. We have seen a banking have a financial incentive to bankrupt businesses. I have sector that has used corporate lawyers and all its muscle been around long enough to know that whatever banks and might to ensure that it can take on small businesses. have a financial incentive to do, we can pretty much This is what small business is up against. People can count on their doing. call me cynical if they like, but much of this selling of swaps was going on in 2006 and 2007, when interest rates were 5.5%, but by 2009 they had dropped to 0.5%, Andrew Bridgen: Does my hon. Friend agree that not and I believe that many of those banks knew that only is this situation awful for the SMEs that have been interest rates were going to fall. Why were they so keen caught up in the mis-selling scandal, but it sends a to go out and get everybody tied up in these swaps? strong negative message to anyone who is thinking of Under the terms of the swaps, the higher interest rate going into business in this country? Does it not send could probably be capped at around 6.9%, but if they them the message that the banks cannot be trusted, and started to fall below 4% or 3%, people immediately got provide them with a big incentive not to go into business clobbered for huge amounts of money. It was therefore at all? very much in the banks’ interests to get people into these schemes. That is where I do actually say that what Ian Swales: Absolutely. Earlier, the hon. Member for went on was criminal. That is why we expect our great South West Devon (Mr Streeter) referred to the reputation Minister, along with the FCA, to do something about of the banks. I think that they will have an enormous this. The fact that only 32 or 33 cases in the whole job to do to recover their reputation, and to rebuild the country have been dealt with is an absolute scandal. trust that new business people should expect. I hope that the Minister will say something about the Bob Stewart: My hon. Friend referred to the Bible. question of what happens when businesses have gone Does he agree that this would be called usury or robbery bankrupt, or their proprietors are deceased. Do they in the Bible? 499 Interest Rate Swap Derivatives24 OCTOBER 2013 Interest Rate Swap Derivatives 500

Neil Parish: I certainly do, and there is another word on record my recognition of the tremendous work done for it: theft. That is exactly what it is, because people by the all-party group on interest rate swap mis-selling. entered into these agreements in good faith, and that Its efforts in campaigning on this issue since it first brings me to another point I want to make. Throughout came to light last year have made sure it remains at the my business and farming career, I had a good relationship top of the political agenda. I should mention in particular with my bank. I trusted my bank manager, and when I the hon. Member for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb) for his spoke to him or her, I expected them to give me good leadership of that group and his willingness to run with advice. That trust in our banks has been broken by this this issue. He opened the debate with a powerful speech affair. If people in small businesses and in business touching on all the different elements of the redress generally cannot trust their bank when they want to scheme, which have been causing problems to small raise finance to build up their company and employ businesses throughout the country. He reminded the more people, where on earth are we going to build a House that the banks were telling us they cannot promise recovery? We are building a recovery, of course, but we that the date for full redress will be much before 2015, could build it so much better if we could restore that despite having spent £300 million and recruited around trust. The FCA must do much more, so businesses can 3,000 staff to deal with this problem. The number of recover from this. claims settled to date is pitifully small. The record on I have many affected businesses in my constituency, that is nothing to write home about and it needs to be and two businesses in particular, both of which are with dealt with urgently. the Clydesdale bank. One of them is a large successful The Chair of the Backbench Business Committee, farm and the other is a hotel. They have all been put my hon. Friend the Member for North East Derbyshire under enormous pressure and have paid enormous amounts (Natascha Engel), made a fine speech. She reminded of money, and this is stopping them expanding. One of the House that the imposition of a blanket moratorium the businesses was not given much choice about whether on payments would concentrate the minds of the banks to take out the deal. Basically, they were told, “You and press them towards resolving the claims businesses either take the money with a swap, or you don’t have the have made more swiftly. She also made the important money at all.” That is the kind of coercion that went on. point that much of the language the banks are using in We need to deal with this issue, because we need these their correspondence with businesses and Members of businesses to prosper. Parliament on this issue is not easy language, and that Some companies who have been sold a swap and have means there is a danger of the same kind of confusion therefore come under enormous financial pressure have arising as that which led to this scandal in the first place. been driven into liquidation, and I suspect that, because The hon. Members for Wyre Forest (Mark Garnier) of the wonderful financial institutions we have in this and for Aberconwy reminded the House that in the last country—I am being sarcastic here—they will be snapped 48 hours some banks have moved to decouple the issue up at rock-bottom prices. That is all wrong, because we of consequential losses from technical redress, and I are talking about businesses that have worked hard for will return to that point. years and family businesses that have been established My right hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton for generations being destroyed by this system. South East (Mr McFadden) reminded the House that It is great that we have got this second debate, and, in this scandal has further corroded and damaged trust respect of the banks, it is great that the snail is beginning between banks and their customers and drew a parallel to turn into a hare, but I suspect, if we are not careful, with previous scandals, including the PPI scandal, which that as soon as this debate is over it will transform back certainly should concentrate minds. He also reminded into a snail. That is why I say to the Minister that it is us that hedging and insuring against risks is not in and absolutely essential that he, along with the FCA, gets of itself wrong, and he is certainly right about that, but hold of the banks and makes them compensate people there has to be full understanding as to what these for what they have mis-sold and what they have done. arrangements involve, and we must make sure that Until that is done—until we have rectified the situation when they are entered into, it is done in a way that is and compensated these businesses—we will not restore suitable for both the companies getting involved and confidence in the banking system, which we badly need the banks. to be restored in this country. We must ensure that we My hon. Friend the Member for Llanelli (Nia Griffith) move forward at an even quicker pace so that people told us about the tragedy of good and very successful have confidence to invest and know that if they approach businesses who have been caught up in this scandal and their bank, they will be sold a good deal, not a pup, the real fear felt by small businesses in seeking redress which is exactly what people were sold in this instance. and how that can act as a barrier to them exercising I look forward to hearing the Minister’s comments their full rights under the redress scheme. They worry because I have great confidence in him and he has great about admitting something has gone wrong because of experience in this sector. I have had more pain from what that might mean for their future relationship with banks than anything else. If we do not get the banking their bank. That was an important point to put on the sector right, we will not get the economy right. record. My hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh South 2.5 pm (Ian Murray) reminded us again of the link between this scandal and the corrosion of people’s trust in the Shabana Mahmood (Birmingham, Ladywood) (Lab): banks and how that has followed on from the PPI I congratulate all the Members who secured this debate, scandal and the manipulation of LIBOR. He also said and I also thank the Backbench Business Committee that this all feeds into a sense that the banks, who are for giving further time for this important issue to be supposed to be on the side of small businesses—and discussed on the Floor of the House. I also want to put who clearly need small businesses as much as small 501 Interest Rate Swap Derivatives24 OCTOBER 2013 Interest Rate Swap Derivatives 502 businesses need them—have not appeared to be behaving One of biggest issues with the redress scheme is the in that way and that needs to be dealt with forthwith. complete lack of a deadline for the process. Last month, Many Government Members, including the hon. my hon. Friends the Members for Nottingham East Members for Poole (Mr Syms), for Bury North (Chris Leslie) and for Chesterfield (Toby Perkins) wrote (Mr Nuttall), for South West Devon (Mr Streeter) and to the chief executive of the FCA about the delay in for Romsey and Southampton North (Caroline Nokes), compensation payments and requested that a strict made points about the snail’s pace of this scheme, deadline for settlement be imposed on the banks taking which I will return to in a few moments. Those points part in the scheme. Unfortunately, the imposition of a were well made, and I hope they are being heard. On the deadline has been resisted by the FCA. That is deeply speech by the hon. Member for Tiverton and Honiton disappointing, given the necessity of achieving a faster (Neil Parish), I will not get into whether David felling rate of progress for businesses that are in financial Goliath is mythological, biblical or something else, but difficulty and the fact that the Federation of Small the analogy was well made and the symbolism of it will Businesses has indicated that some reviews of the interest resonate outside this House. rate swap products could be completed in as little as four to six weeks. I am sure the Minister will agree that It is clear from today’s contributions that the businesses firms that are due redress must receive it as quickly as caught up in this scandal, including businesses in my possible if they are to survive; they need certainty and constituency that are following this debate closely from clarity so that they can plan for the future. Does he a place not very far away, have suffered terribly; we have agree that a deadline would help matters? I hope he will heard distressing stories of injustice, bankruptcies, job respond to that point. Will he outline for us what he losses, marriage breakdown, homelessness and, in some might do to bring that about? cases, death. Today’s contributions have rightly reminded the House that for all the debate about process—that is incredibly important and we have to get it right—there We have seen some movement in the past 48 hours on is a human cost, which should not be forgotten. the issue of consequential losses, which is very welcome. However, it is important that all the banks that have not This scandal has highlighted shocking abuse of small signed up to the decoupling arrangement in respect of and medium-sized enterprises; banks saw an opportunity consequential loss and technical redress do so as quickly in firms wanting to take out loans and they attached as possible. As this is now an evolving element of the complex hedging products to them, in many cases giving redress scheme, will the Minister confirm that he will the impression that this was a requirement of the loan follow it closely to ensure that the evolving process will itself. When interest rates plummeted, businesses were still allow for a fair assessment of consequential losses forced to pick up the punitive downside of the hedges. and that there is no risk that businesses will opt to forgo We know that in many cases banks had the option to money they are owed in order to obtain compensation cancel the loan. So, presumably, at any stage when for their direct losses more quickly? interest rates might have gone up and the business would have benefited from having the hedge, the bank We also heard a lot about the suspension of payments, could cancel, but in the reverse situation the business an issue about which many hon. Members have been could not exit the hedge when it became unfavourable writing to banks in our capacity as constituency Members to it without incurring punitive costs and charges. Not of Parliament. Clearly, there is some inconsistency in only was that an extremely unfair set of terms and the way in which the suspension of payments is being conditions, but that behaviour violated the important applied. Will the Minister undertake to do whatever he relationship of trust between the banks and our small can to ensure that the suspension of payments applies business community. Well run, long-established small wherever it is necessary? Will he consider the threshold? businesses, which are the engine of our economy, have Will he eliminate the requirement for the business to go paid the price. into special measures, as that is clearly holding some I will not rehearse the history of how we have got to people back? the redress process that is in place, but suffice it to say that many concerns with this scheme require urgent A huge amount of data have been published by the action. I hope the Minister has heard all those points FCA on its website, which is helping Members of this today and will take them away with him. I hope also House to assess the progress of this scheme. However, I that the FCA and the banks have been listening carefully wonder whether there is scope for some of those to today’s debate. The biggest issue, about which we datasets to be expanded, particularly to give Members have heard a great deal today, is the time that this is all more information about what is happening to businesses taking to resolve. Time is of the essence for the businesses in financial distress and businesses in administration, concerned, yet figures show that banks paid out just so that there is no incentive for banks to not bother £1.5 million in compensation in September, with 22 offers dealing with them, as we have heard discussed today. being accepted. That brings the grand total to a mere £2 million having been paid out, with 32 settled claims. Small businesses are the lifeblood of our economy; In September, the chairman of the Federation of Small they account for about half of private sector turnover, Businesses said: employ millions of people and make up 99% of UK “We are quickly losing confidence in the banks and the regulator enterprises. They deserve to be treated better by our as this scheme remains unbelievably slow.” financial institutions, and to be supported and protected The initial target indicated for the redress scheme was more effectively by both the regulators and the Government. six months. That time scale has already been missed, I hope that the Minister can provide some much-needed and it now looks as if it will be missed by a very large assurance, and that the FCA and the banks take on margin. board all the points made by hon. Members today. 503 Interest Rate Swap Derivatives24 OCTOBER 2013 Interest Rate Swap Derivatives 504

2.16 pm Sajid Javid: The FCA has set out a clear process and is publishing more and more information on it. It is The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Sajid Javid): important that the FCA and the banks should stick to First, let me take this opportunity to welcome you to that. Equally, however, Martin Wheatley, the head of your new Chair, Madam Deputy Speaker. It is a great the FCA, has not ruled out any further action, including pleasure to see you in your place. I also welcome the taking enforcement action if he deems that the redress hon. Member for Birmingham, Ladywood (Shabana process has not worked as intended. Mahmood) to her new role and wish her luck with it. A number of Members have mentioned redress payments. I start by thanking all the hon. Members who secured Of course we need to be confident that the scheme this debate and by congratulating everyone on presenting provides the correct level of redress for affected businesses. their case well. Special thanks must go to my hon. I understand why concerns have been raised about the Friend the Member for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb) for the FCA’s decision to allow the banks to settle with customers time, energy and passion that he has put into this issue for a single redress offer, covering both basic redress and for the leadership he has shown. We can see from and consequential losses. this debate that this issue is very serious; 17 of my hon. It is right that the FCA, as an independent regulator, Friends and four other hon. Members have spoken should decide such details. However, I agree that it is today. I am sure that everyone in this Chamber, like all sensible for the initial payment for basic redress to be those others watching in the Public Gallery, at home made to provide much-needed relief to the businesses. and elsewhere, including the hundreds watching in the That is why I welcome the announcement this week, Central Methodist hall from the many businesses that from HSBC and RBS so far, that they will now make an have been affected, is keen to see a quick conclusion to initial redress payment to businesses and then discuss the FCA review and to see that those businesses that consequential losses separately. Back Benchers should were mis-sold financial products are compensated take credit for that move. Under the leadership of my accordingly. hon. Friend the Member for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb), When I was growing up, my father ran a small family they have put pressure on the banks and we have seen business in Bristol, so I was made aware from a young the results already. age about the importance of cash flow and the dangers However, I want things to go further—I would like all of unexpected costs. As such, I sympathise wholeheartedly the other banks to join the move announced by HSBC with the small businesses that have been affected by this and RBS, and I shall be watching closely to see whether mis-selling scandal and have put such energy into lobbying they do. That should help prevent any further undue on this issue. This Government have made it clear from distress for the businesses and give them much-needed the beginning that the mis-selling of financial products cash-flow relief. is totally unacceptable. We take extremely seriously the abuse that has taken place, and we are determined that Ian Swales: I well understand that consequential loss any wrongs that have been inflicted on businesses should calculations are probably unique to each business. However be righted. the redress payments surely form a pattern, given that they are all based on similar products. Does the Minister I share the disappointment of fellow hon. Members believe that the banks should be able to move very about the progress made under the FCA review to date. quickly with the redress part of the compensation? I stood up in a Westminster Hall debate about four and a half months ago to discuss this very issue, and the fact Sajid Javid: I agree. The banks should move much that the FCA has not made any significant progress faster. Today’s announcement from the two banks is since that debate is, frankly, not good enough. As we welcome, but other banks should take a serious attitude have heard today, the FCA said in January this year that to not only the amounts but the timing of redress the full review process would begin, but it has since payments. confirmed that the full process did not start until May this year. That delay has been disappointing, and the Hon. Members have also voiced concerns about the FCA should have been much clearer about exactly large number of businesses that have been assessed as when this full review actually started. However, the sophisticated and so fall outside the scheme. My review is now up and running, with the large majority of understanding is that the FCA used as a starting point cases being looked at. I understand from the FCA that the criteria for non-sophisticated customers set out in it believes that about 85% of cases are now under the Companies Act 2006. As such, the test reflects the review, but hon. Members are absolutely right to say fact that larger businesses would have greater resources that it is time for the banks and the FCA to do more to to seek advice on the products in question, both at the speed up the process and get redress out the door. As time of sale and subsequently. Moreover, I understand such, the Government will continue to push the banks that the FCA then amended the sophistication test in and the FCA to complete the process as quickly as January to ensure that certain companies, which were possible. As the motion says, the redress scheme’s progress classified as sophisticated under the Companies Act test has been too slow. That is costly and has caused further but which might reasonably be considered to be non- undue distress to the businesses involved. The FCA and sophisticated, were also brought into the scope of the banks need to get on with the job. review. Throughout this debate, the Government have been clear that when a business lacked the necessary skills Mr McFadden: Before the Minister leaves the issue of and knowledge to understand fully the risks of the the FCA, will he say what he thinks of the FCA’s reply products, it should receive the appropriate redress. We to some businesses in distress—that it will not consider do not agree that all businesses should have access to individual cases? the FCA review; there needs to be a defined cut-off 505 Interest Rate Swap Derivatives24 OCTOBER 2013 Interest Rate Swap Derivatives 506 point beyond which more sophisticated businesses take Once again, I thank hon. Members, particularly my responsibility for understanding the products that they hon. Friend the Member for Aberconwy, for bringing entered into. I am confident that the FCA has found the the issue to the attention of the House. I assure them right balance to ensure that all non-sophisticated businesses that I will make sure that the issue continues to receive fall inside the scheme. the highest level of attention from the Government. I will not be able in the time available to address all 2.27 pm the questions raised, but I might be able to help with a couple in particular. Some Members asked whether Guto Bebb: With the leave of the House, I should like insolvency could be a reason for banks to try to delay to make a few concluding remarks. This has been a the redress process. I assure the House that that could positive and necessary debate, and we have seen significant not be a reason. No one wants businesses to go insolvent, progress as a result of it. Members from across the but if, sadly, they do, they will still be part of the review House have made it clear that they want a step change process. If mis-selling is found to have happened, banks in the progress made by the FCA review process. That is will still be liable and on the hook—they will gain no necessary; we need a significant increase in the number advantage from the insolvency of a company. of businesses offered redress. There are real concerns Hon. Members, including the shadow Minister, asked about an expansion of the scheme. Speeches have whether the FCA could consider setting a deadline. highlighted the issue of embedded swaps and the concerns There is a good case for the FCA to consider that, but it about the sophistication test, which I would like to would have to be its independent decision. Due regard discuss in further detail with the Minister in due course must be taken of the fact that it might take longer to if I can. sort out the most complex products, but it would be The other pretty obvious thing from this debate is good for the FCA to consider whether setting a deadline that we need the banks to provide support for the would help to speed up the process. businesses while they wait to be reviewed. We want the banks to show forbearance and to understand that the Steve Brine: A number of colleagues have mentioned difficulties faced by many businesses were created by this. Does the Minister have a view on a truly independent the banks’ own mis-selling. No further businesses should appeals process? Given that 93% of the cases looked at be lost to the UK economy as a result of the mis-selling thus far have been non-compliant, the number involved of these products, which were inappropriate in the vast would not be massive. majority of cases. This has been a positive debate, but we still need to see the proof of the pudding in the way Sajid Javid: As my hon. Friend will know, there is a in which the scheme delivers from now on. necessary degree of independence in the process. However, he raises a good point, which, as he said, has been Sajid Javid: May I tell my hon. Friend that I would be raised by others today. It is important to make sure that more than happy to meet him and other stakeholders to there is confidence in the process. If confidence does discuss this further? not come about in the coming months, the FCA may have to review things and the process that my hon. Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Laing): If the Minister Friend suggests could be taken forward. has finished his intervention, the hon. Gentleman may conclude his speech. I end by reiterating that the Government take extremely seriously the abuse that has taken place in very many Guto Bebb: I appreciate that offer very much, Madam cases. I sympathise wholeheartedly with campaigners in Deputy Speaker. the Chamber and beyond. I am determined that any wrongs inflicted on businesses should be put right and Question put and agreed to. want a quick solution to the mis-selling of interest rate Resolved, hedging products. That this House considers the lack of progress made by banks and the Financial Conduct Authority on the redress scheme Small businesses are the backbone of our economy adopted as a result of the mis-selling of complex interest rate and they should be allowed to draw a line under this derivatives to small and medium businesses to be unacceptable; issue and get back to what they do best—working hard, and notes that this lack of progress is costly and has caused creating jobs and creating growth for the UK economy. further undue distress to the businesses involved. 507 24 OCTOBER 2013 Aviation Strategy 508

Aviation Strategy each. The growth of large hubs in the middle east, such as Dubai, has also threatened the UK’s position as an [Relevant documents: First Report from the Transport international hub. If the necessary hub capacity is not Committee, on Aviation strategy, HC 78, and the Government available in the UK, airlines use competitor hubs to response, HC 596.] places such as Schiphol, Frankfurt and Madrid, and if no action is taken, the UK will continue to lose out. 2.29 pm Mrs Louise Ellman (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab/Co-op): Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) I beg to move, (SNP): What weight would the hon. Lady give to the That this House has considered aviation strategy. warning from Michael O’Leary of Ryanair, who says May I congratulate you on your new role, Madam that the UK’s current approach to airport expansion Deputy Speaker? will mean that another runway will be built at Heathrow and at Gatwick some day, but it will be done in an I am pleased to have the opportunity to debate aviation incredible hurry, will not be well planned, and will be strategy in the UK, which was the subject of a Transport the usual sticking-plaster solution? Committee report published in May. A decision on capacity in the south-east has been in the “too difficult” Mrs Ellman: It is undeniable that additional capacity box for too long. The independent Davies commission is needed, so we need to make decisions now. We may set up by the Government has been asked to submit its well need to make more in the future and I will refer to final report after the next general election, but the them in due course. Transport Committee felt that this was too important an issue to ignore in this Parliament. I therefore thank the Backbench Business Committee for this opportunity Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con): I to debate our findings. congratulate the hon. Lady and her Committee on their excellent work. On capacity, does she agree that there Our main focus was inevitably on the controversial are more cost-effective options that could better meet subject of runway capacity in the south-east. We concluded the need for capacity than proposals to build a £70 billion that the expansion of Heathrow was the best option, new estuary airport? I declare an interest, because it because that recognises the importance of aviation to would be located near my constituency. the UK’s economy and the need for more hub capacity to maintain international connectivity, and reflects consideration of the feasible options. The report considers Mrs Ellman: I am about to address that very point. future demand forecasts for aviation, the impact of The situation could be dealt with in three ways: build an aviation growth on the global and local environment, entirely new hub airport; link existing airports through the importance of hub airports in securing connectivity, high-speed rail to form a split hub; or expand one or the role of airports outside the south-east, and aviation more existing airports. taxation, especially air passenger duty, and I will refer Many of the proposals for a new hub airport would to all those issues during the debate. locate it to the east of London in the Thames estuary It is vital to recognise the importance of aviation to area. There are significant challenges associated with the economy. In 2011, the UK’s aviation sector had a building such an airport, including the difficulty of turnover of some £53 billion and generated about £18 billion designing airspace in an already crowded environment, of economic output. It employs more than 220,000 workers and the need to mitigate bird strike and to deal with directly, and it has been estimated that the total number environmental challenges such as future sea-level rises of jobs supported could be as high as 921,000. Aviation and the risk of flooding. Noise would also become an is also important for the lives of many citizens by issue for the many people who inevitably would move providing transport, and trade and leisure, links to the into the area. rest of the world. Demand for aviation links is growing. We commissioned specific research into the options In 2012, UK airports handled 221 million passengers, and it became clear that, in addition to the factors I which was 1.4 million more than in 2011. The latest have mentioned, the first option would inevitably lead passenger forecasts predict that demand at UK airports to the closure of Heathrow, threatening more than is set to grow. Unconstrained forecasts—those in which 100,000 jobs, which would be devastating. It would also there are no airspace constraints or capacity limitations— require a significant public subsidy of up to £30 billion show that passenger numbers will grow to 320 million a towards surface infrastructure and compensation for year by 2030 and 480 million a year by 2050. It is likely the closure of Heathrow, which would be on top of the that there will also be greater demand for air connections tens of billions of pounds that it would cost to build the to new destinations. new airport itself. The UK has direct air links to more than 360 The second option is to link existing airports through international locations. There are, however, serious and high-speed rail to form a split hub, perhaps involving growing concerns about poor connectivity between the Gatwick and Heathrow—Heathwick. That was rejected UK and some of the world’s emerging markets, such as because of uncompetitive connection times for transferring the BRIC group of Brazil, Russia, India and China. passengers, especially compared with the transfer times There are particular concerns about the absence of links of competitor hubs overseas. The third option is to to China’s manufacturing centres. The lack of capacity expand one or more of our existing airports. We looked at Heathrow, the UK’s only hub airport, is reducing the in detail at the possibility of expanding Gatwick and/or UK’s connectivity to important destinations. For many Stansted as alternatives to the expansion of Heathrow, years, Heathrow has operated with two runways at full but new runways alone, distributed across a number of capacity while competitor hubs such as Paris, Frankfurt airports, will not provide a long-term solution to the and Schiphol have benefited from four to six runways specific problem of hub capacity. We concluded that 509 Aviation Strategy24 OCTOBER 2013 Aviation Strategy 510 expansion of Heathrow with a third runway would be The introduction of an air passenger duty holiday, the best way forward, and that was also the solution which we have recommended, would also encourage the that British business throughout the country overwhelmingly development of new routes. favoured. In the course of our inquiry, we heard numerous concerns about the high rate of air passenger duty, Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab): I appreciate which is damaging to UK plc and puts UK aviation at a the work the Committee has done, but I wonder whether disadvantage compared with our European competitors. it has been somewhat bamboozled by the public relations We were disappointed that the Government rejected operation that is Heathrow. The fact is that it has been our recommendation to reduce significantly or abolish the only game in town for a number of years. To dismiss air passenger duty and we are concerned that they show the option of expanding other south-east airports as a no willingness to undertake a full review of its economic split hub, rather than viewing them as a network serving impact. the whole of the huge city of London and the south-east, Parliament has shied away from deciding whether is somewhat too glib. and where to permit additional aviation capacity in the south-east. That is a prime example of a failure to Mrs Ellman: I thank my hon. Friend for his comments. recognise our infrastructure needs. The Davies commission Our report looks specifically at his suggestions, but we will produce an interim report at the end of this year came to the very clear conclusion that the expansion of with recommendations for immediate action to improve Heathrow was the only realistic option. We recognise the use of existing runway capacity over the next five that there might be a case for additional runways at years, as well as a short list of options to address Gatwick and perhaps Stansted, but that is not an alternative capacity over the longer term, but the commission’s to additional hub capacity at Heathrow. final report will not be published until after the general election in 2015. We acknowledged the need to address the very real We must act decisively on this issue before we lose our environmental objections that may arise. In particular, competitive edge as a global hub for aviation. The noise in excess of 55 dB is a major problem for more commission must provide a robust and independent than 700,000 people in the airport’s vicinity. We have evidence base for future decisions, as well as suggested a number of steps that could be taken to recommendations for action. The failure to take a decision mitigate that serious issue. Planes are getting quieter, has consequences for the UK because it puts our but aircraft manufacturers must continue to develop competitiveness and economic success at risk. When the quieter aircraft. To facilitate that, we recommend that Davies commission reports, it will be time to decide, the Government, through their involvement with the and that will be the challenge for the 2015 Parliament. I International Civil Aviation Organisation, try to influence hope that today’s debate assists the House in identifying global noise standards. Airports themselves should the key issues so that a conclusion that is in the interests encourage airlines to take older, noisier aircraft out of of the UK can be reached. service at the earliest opportunity, and people living under the flight path who are affected by excessive noise should be adequately compensated. We have called on 2.43 pm the Government to develop a comprehensive, nationwide approach to noise compensation. The Civil Aviation Sir Alan Haselhurst (Saffron Walden) (Con): It is a Authority should review existing flight paths and landing pleasure to address you in the Chair, Madam Deputy approach angles to reduce noise pollution. Speaker. It is a reversal of roles that happens very rarely in this House. Local air quality is also important, and the Government should draw up plans to ensure that the EU limits on air Mr Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con): pollutants are met. We were especially concerned about Will my right hon. Friend give way on that point? unnecessary emissions that are generated due to the stacking of aircraft over London. We recommended Sir Alan Haselhurst: I was about to welcome the that NATS, the air traffic controllers, should carry out Under-Secretary of State for Transport, my hon. Friend modelling work to identify the extent to which stacking the Member for Scarborough and Whitby (Mr Goodwill) might be reduced if an additional runway was built at to his new duties, but I give way to my hon. Friend. Heathrow. Ultimately, any plans for increased aviation capacity must take account of progress on global initiatives Mr Jenkin: I merely remark that my right hon. Friend to deal with emissions. used to play Caesar to Caesar’s wife and now he plays It is vital to remember that a hub airport is about Mark Antony to Cleopatra. serving the national interest, meaning that 63 million people in the UK are affected. Local problems must be Sir Alan Haselhurst: I am grateful to my hon. Friend addressed, but that must be done in the context of for that erudition, of which I was not capable. considering the needs of the UK as a whole. I must declare an interest because Stansted airport is Our report looked at the important role that is played in my constituency. However, the views that I hold on by airports outside the south-east. We hope that increased airports policy were formed when I had the honour to capacity at Heathrow would improve connectivity to be the Member for Middleton and Prestwich in Greater other UK regions as more slots became available. The Manchester. I took the view then, in the wake of the Government should do more to reduce the barriers that study by the Roskill commission, the last great body to are faced by airports when trying to secure new routes, study airports policy, that none of the inland sites, such as through better marketing or the introduction of whether Cublington, Nuthampstead, Stansted, Willingale an unrestricted open skies policy outside the south-east. or any other, should be developed, and that if we were 511 Aviation Strategy24 OCTOBER 2013 Aviation Strategy 512

[Sir Alan Haselhurst] believed in that type of monopoly being created. With the passage of time, I think very few hon. Members to have a proper airport system for London, it should believe that it was the right policy, and it is now being be offshore. My view was that it would be a mistake to dismantled. urbanise a large part of the countryside in any of the home counties. I never dreamed that, due to the sad Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con): My right hon. Friend early death of Sir Peter Kirk, a vacancy would occur in has just mentioned a good free market Conservative the Saffron Walden constituency, which I was chosen to and he spent some time eloquently setting out the fill. I am therefore not simply saying “Not in my back degree of capital investment in Heathrow. Will he join yard”—I have tried to have a wider perspective on the me in recognising that if we use the power to tax and matter. direct to throw away that capital investment and force The subject of the debate is aviation strategy, but scarce capital into a loss-making project in the estuary, looking back, it is difficult to espy a real strategy that this country will become poorer? there has ever been. The evolution of our policy has been part deception, part confusion and part cowardice. Sir Alan Haselhurst: I am coming to that. The problem Why? Because as soon as we begin to formulate a is that the design of Heathrow is not good and expanding strategy, all the opposition from different parts of the it further—although I recognise that that might happen country is combined, and Governments tend to run because in some people’s eyes it is the easiest option, away from that. It is easier, perhaps, to pick off particular what business most wants and so on—runs the risk of parts of the policy and have a bit-by-bit approach, compounding the problem. which is what has led us to the current wholly unsatisfactory The next airport to come on to the horizon was situation. Gatwick. A previous Minister of Civil Aviation said in If I dare mention it, we got nearest to a policy when this House in answer to a question that Gatwick would Geoff Hoon was Secretary of State for Transport. not be a second London airport but would merely be a Certain difficulties arose in the House, and the hon. diversionary airport for Heathrow. Eventually, of course, Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell), the truth came out that it was to be the second London in defence of interests around Heathrow, got to the airport. Mace quicker than I could have, as I was occupying the Chair. I therefore recognise the passion to which the BAA—I have no time for it—then decided to enter subject gives rise. into a pact with West Sussex council not to build a second runway at Gatwick for 40 years, which was the I contend, as many other Members have, that it was equivalent of the Molotov–Ribbentrop treaty as far as I probably a mistake initially to choose Heathrow for was concerned. That pact expires in 2019. Having done London’s principal aerodrome, as it was then called. I that, BAA was still anxious to go and find a third do not think anyone foresaw the increase in civil aviation airport so it must bear a heavy responsibility for the that would take place. I can remember when the facilities split situation. Had there been competition between on the north side at Heathrow were in tents, and when it those three airports, we might be in a slightly different was decided that aviation was going to be a more place—and this is certainly not the best place. serious factor in our post-war world, I found it astonishing that the permanent buildings were put between the two I agree with the hon. Member for Liverpool, Riverside runways, so that they had to be reached by a tunnel—what (Mrs Ellman), the Chairperson of the Transport Committee, a brilliant way of developing the airport. that we need a hub airport for our major city. There has been much talk of late of that being old hat, as everything Mr MacNeil: Does the right hon. Gentleman also is now point-to-point. Everything is not point-to-point. feel that the subsequent post-war behaviour in conducting Point-to-point becomes increasingly possible when traffic international bilateral air agreements, which for decades increases and routes become, in the language of the stipulated that the London airports should be used for trade, thick routes, meaning that so many flights a day access to the UK, was a mistake, particularly given the can be justified between those points. That is fine and bleating and screaming that is now happening in the that will go on, but it will be a long time before there is a south-east of England and around London? daily flight between Denver, Colorado and, say, Naples. Sir Alan Haselhurst: The hon. Gentleman anticipates There will be a need for passengers to interline at an me. I will come to that point, but I am starting with airport and it would be to our advantage commercially, Heathrow, the design of which has been a complete not just for the businesses in London but for the airlines, disaster. After three terminals were put in the middle of if British Airways, Virgin or any other British carrier the runways, more were needed, so terminal 4 had to be had part of that business. The argument for the split on the south side. It was sworn that there would be no hub, suggesting that interlining is not important, overlooks further expansion, and BAA consistently said that the the fact that many passengers are now not coming idea of moving the Perry Oaks sludge works was out of through London. They are going to airports in Europe the question—that it was impractical and that those of where interlining is more conveniently executed. us who suggested it did not know what we were talking I believe that there needs to be a hub in London and I about—but that is where terminal 5 now stands. Had an accept that it is perhaps inevitable that that will be intelligent approach been taken to the development of Heathrow, but to build a third runway, possibly a fourth Heathrow, that would have been where all the terminals runway and a sixth and seventh terminal for that airport were put. It was not to be. will not make it anything like the new airport in Hong Giving BAA control of the three London airports Kong, or Changi in Singapore, or the airport in Beijing. was a huge mistake, and it was extraordinary that the It will still be a confusing mass airport. I do not think person who had to pilot that proposal through the that that serves London best, but it might be the best House was the late Nicholas Ridley, who I do not think that can be achieved in the circumstances. 513 Aviation Strategy24 OCTOBER 2013 Aviation Strategy 514

I absolutely understand why London deserves a decent country.We struggled over the channel tunnel; we struggled airport. Our engineers and architects have designed over the rail link to the channel tunnel—we were going some of the other airports in the rest of the world, so it to build half of it at one point, and it would be difficult is a great shame that we cannot give them the chance to to imagine anything more crazy. Finally, however, we build a decent airport for our city. got there. It took us an awfully long time to think about I am also concerned, as I have a northern history, Crossrail before we began building it. Why cannot we about balancing this country. I saw the effect of deciding realise that London deserves a good airport? The whole to develop Stansted. One can still walk around the country deserves a better deal, and to level up the north. towns and villages of north-west Essex and find a variety of regional UK accents, as people were drawn Mr MacNeil: Will the right hon. Gentleman give down to the area. That is all part of a problem that way? post-war Governments have contested, unsuccessful by and large—that is, the drift from the north to the south. Sir Alan Haselhurst: I am about to come to an end I think that is a great shame. and I have given way once already to the hon. Gentleman. The whole country needs to get some benefit from the I was close to Manchester for a time, and I saw the people whom we encourage to travel to our country for potential for the development of Manchester airport. It business or pleasure. We need imagination—that is what has two runways, so why can that potential not be seen? I appeal for—and a solution that is worthy of our main Why not promote that as at least one other gateway into city and our country as a whole. the country? Most air traffic has to do with leisure, and from Manchester not only can the business community be served in that part of the country—going both west 2.59 pm to Liverpool and east to Leeds—but there is access to Graham Stringer (Blackley and Broughton) (Lab): It north Wales, the Derbyshire peak district, the Yorkshire is a pleasure to follow the extremely erudite and dales, Yorkshire moors, the lake district and so on. We knowledgeable speech by the right hon. Member for ought to encourage those who visit this country to see Saffron Walden (Sir Alan Haselhurst). I learned most parts of it other than just London and the home counties. of what I know about aviation and Stansted during the That would take some of the pressure off London, air inquiry in the run-up to the 1985 White Paper on without—of course—excusing the need for a proper aviation. At that time, as leader of Manchester city hub. I tell my constituents who occasionally ask, “Should council, I was a director of Manchester airport. We put we be spending all this money on HS2?” that when I together solid arguments against the expansion of Stansted hear that HS2 would bring Birmingham airport within airport, which we believed would contribute to a continuing 36 minutes of London, my eyes water because it is an imbalance in the country’s economy. I should tell him average of 47 minutes from Stansted airport into London. that I have not shifted far from those views, although That brings me to a point about infrastructure. Over some of my then colleagues, who could not have envisaged the years, our one consistent failing—there have been that Manchester airport would end up owning Stansted, many—is that we have not been prepared to back have shifted quite a long way from their views. That is airport development with suitable infrastructure for for a more detailed future debate. people to get there. So what happens? Well, I can speak I agree with the right hon. Gentleman—I shall put it for Stansted with some passion. On the back of an in slightly different words—that this country has been airport that we were unhappy to see develop, we did not hopeless, not only in aviation infrastructure, but all get the compensation of a good railway system. In fact, infrastructure. We have the lowest motorway density in we got one that is worse because priority was given on a what used to be called western Europe; we have one two-track railway to the Stansted Express. I am all in small high-speed line, which, symbolically, goes out of favour of a good service to Stansted airport, but that the country; we have built one new runway—at Manchester must not be at the expense of all the commuters whom airport—in the whole UK since the second world war; Government policies over the years have encouraged to and we have poor broadband speeds. We have been very live in the M11 corridor. They get the worst of both poor indeed at infrastructure. worlds and that is wrong. I believe that the recession was caused by bankers On compensation, we have been niggardly over the and the euro—Government Members might have a years in the amount of money we are prepared to give different perspective—but, nevertheless, productivity to people—it is all spent on long public inquiries, fighting has fallen, and if we are to earn our living in the world, the case and so on, instead of being paid to those it must increase. One way in which the Government people who might feel most affected by the project. We can support industry and jobs, and the country’s should provide those people with at least some competitiveness, is by ensuring that we have good compensation so that if it is necessary in the national infrastructure. interest to bring about a major project, they will at least That brings me to the main point in the Transport get some advantage from that. We must do more on that Committee’s aviation strategy report. We have been if we are to get people to settle for whatever strategy—if through some of the arguments, but there is no shortage we actually succeed in getting one at the end of all the of runway capacity in this country. Figures in the further deliberation through the Davies commission. written submissions to the report show that, at the main In the late 1960s and during the period of the Heath airports, only a third of runway capacity is used, and Government, it was decided, in the name of the that, throughout the UK, we have 21 times the runway environment, to go for an estuarial solution. That was capacity we need. However, we are extraordinarily short my wish and that would still be the ideal. I do not of hub capacity. Heathrow is full, and what happens believe the most pessimistic forecasts about the time there cannot easily be replicated directly at Gatwick, and expense it would take. We lack imagination in this Stansted, Birmingham or, unfortunately, Manchester. 515 Aviation Strategy24 OCTOBER 2013 Aviation Strategy 516

[Graham Stringer] because it is difficult to understand why a report that states that more jobs could be created with less tax—an The example given by Heathrow—we are not falling attractive proposition to Conservatives—is being rejected. for its public relations—was the Seattle service. There A report by York Aviation has also been mentioned, are insufficient passengers in London to provide a daily and I would be interested in a response from the Minister. service to Seattle from London. The British Airways The report did not look into the current situation, but it Seattle service flies daily because of transfer passengers. did study how many more passengers could be attracted Approximately a third of passengers at Heathrow are to airline travel in long-haul, interregional, non-congested transfer passengers. I have chosen the Seattle example, airports if there was an APD holiday. For Manchester— but there are many others. Heathrow enables routes to there are similar cases for other regional airports, such connect London and the UK to the rest of the world. as Birmingham and Bristol—routes to Bangkok, Hong The constraints on the hub capacity come in because, Kong, Delhi, Mumbai and Beijing would become viable when we consider the number of serious destinations if there was an APD holiday for two or three years. served, we realise that it is not just a numbers game. At There would be no loss to the Treasury, just gain when the time of the report, Heathrow served 128 destinations, people arrived in this country and spent money, because although there might be fewer now because it is declining the routes do not currently exist. Will the Minister all the time. At the same time, Amsterdam served 131 respond to the detail of that report, either now or at a destinations; Frankfurt served 149; and Paris served future meeting, because that should also be an attractive 155. It is not good for the business of this country if our proposition for a Conservative Government. European competitors are connected to more parts of During the passage of the Civil Aviation Act 2012, I the world. regularly questioned the then Transport Minister, now In the emerging economies, it is not the cities to the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, the right which London and the UK are connected that stands hon. Member for Chipping Barnet (Mrs Villiers), about out, but the fact that we are not connected to places why so many extra costs and regulations—in terms of such as Jakarta and Manila. We are not connected to security and extra red tape—were being imposed on huge mega-cities in China, such as Nanjing, Hangzhou, airports. She said that they were not being imposed, but Chengdu, Guangzhou and Xiamen. One thousand more when the Civil Aviation Authority came before the flights go from Frankfurt to China per year than from Select Committee, it admitted that the costs had gone this country, excluding flights to Hong Kong. That up, and now we find they have risen again. Will the cannot be good for the business of the UK. Minister look at why these costs and burdens on airports have almost quadrupled since the Bill became an Act, On the alternatives, I think “mad” was the word that contrary to the assurances from the then Minister? some professionals used to describe spending £30 billion on an airport in east London, with all the environmental Finally, many people make an environmental argument problems that that would cause. It is said that fewer against aviation. We have heard about the perverse people would be affected by noise, and that would be situation of air passenger duty, which is huge for people true to start with. However, once an airport is built out travelling from China and for those on other long there with all the jobs that would be created, people intercontinental routes, forcing people into Paris and would, as the right hon. Member for Saffron Walden thus losing us business, but it also forces people to said, go to live near where they work and be affected by multi-ticket. For a long journey, it is much cheaper for the noise. An estuarial airport costing at least £30 billion someone to take a plane from Stansted, Gatwick, Heathrow, is therefore not an alternative. Manchester or Birmingham to a major European hub and then to fly on. By doing that, a family can save Another alternative, which I think has been dealt hundreds of pounds, but it leads to a 5% to 16% with, is joining up airports. That has been tried in increase in carbon dioxide output and an increase in Toronto, Tokyo and Glasgow and it simply has not NOx gases, most of which are produced on take-off worked—people want to transfer within one airport. and landing. If someone changes in the middle east— There is no alternative but to expand Heathrow, increasingly a major competitor to Heathrow, alongside otherwise this country will lose out. When the Roskill the European hubs—on their way to the far east, the commission sat the figures would have been different, result is a 37% increase in fuel usage. The case, therefore, but all the arguments about having a major hub airport for constraining airport capacity to improve the environment in London were before them. We are now in the is actually having a perverse effect. commission’s future and we still have not dealt with the I should, at the beginning of my speech, have problem. We need to deal with it as quickly as possible. congratulated the Minister on his appointment. We Yesterday, there was a debate—I do not intend to worked together on the Transport Select Committee at repeat it—on air passenger duty. The Economic Secretary one time, and I wish him well and look forward to his said that she did not accept the figures in the responses. I know he cares about aviation, which is not PricewaterhouseCoopers report, which indicated that if a well-understood part of the transport industry, but I air passenger duty was abolished completely the Treasury genuinely believe that the Government’s policies are would collect more finance and 60,000 extra jobs would severely restricting what could be a genuine growth be created. I accept that in any report consultants know industry that could create many jobs in the country. who they are working for and include assumptions that are often helpful to the conclusion. The Minister said Several hon. Members rose— that she did not accept the assumptions, which is fair, but she needs to explain why, and that was not part of Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Laing): Order. Before I the debate. I hope that the Minister responding to this call the next speaker, I must tell the House that there is debate will explain why the assumptions are not acceptable, considerable demand from Members, but very little 517 Aviation Strategy24 OCTOBER 2013 Aviation Strategy 518 time left to fill. After the next speaker, therefore, I will jets—and it is available now. I am not suggesting for one have to impose a seven-minute time limit on speeches moment that Manston could or should be another from the Back Benches. London airport, but I believe it could have a major role to play. In, I think, 2005—I stand to be corrected—the right hon. Member for Edinburgh South West (Mr Darling) 3.13 pm published his White Paper on the future of aviation in Sir Roger Gale (North Thanet) (Con): I am delighted the south-east, but since then nothing at all has happened to see you in the Chair this afternoon, Madam Deputy in any meaningful or constructive form, apart from Speaker. I am grateful to the hon. Member for Liverpool, perhaps another terminal at Heathrow. I put it to him at Riverside (Mrs Ellman) for generating the opportunity the time that Manston was available, and I was told, for us to debate something of absolute national importance. “No, it’s too far from London”—76 miles. Finally, I am pleased to see my hon. Friend the Minister Let us think about that. Manston is quite a long on the Front Bench and welcome him to his new job. I way—it is further than Gatwick and Heathrow. Actually, look forward to welcoming him to Kent in the not-too- it is not, at least not in time. I hope we will eventually distant future—he does not know that, but it is going to finish High Speed 1—my hon. Friend the Minister happen. might have a hand in that. Indeed, I have travelled on I do not want to rerun yesterday’s debate either, but the existing line, with old rolling stock, in under an hour during the debate on air passenger duty, the hon. Member from central London to Manston, and if that was for Blackley and Broughton (Graham Stringer) referred possible then, with High Speed 1, it is even more possible to the loss of business to Schiphol and Charles de today. We can get the journey time down to about Gaulle—he might have added Frankfurt—and several 50 minutes. It takes more than 50 minutes to get from other locations in Europe. This is crucial for the economy central London to Heathrow and almost as long to get of the UK. We cannot gainsay the fact that the economic to Gatwick. Therefore, in terms of time rather than hub of the nation is in London. There is much good distance, which is what matters to the traveller, Manston business in Manchester, Birmingham and Scotland, but is viable. the place that people have got used to interlining through, So what do we have? We have an airport sitting in and therefore also doing business in, is London. Kent, out on the peninsular, relatively out of harm’s Frequently people just change planes, but equally way in terms of overflying, available today and under frequently they stop over. Because they are coming new ownership—Manston was sold and bought last through London, they take the opportunity to take in a week. Its future was in a bit of doubt because it was on show or do business in the City of London. It is not just the market, but it has now been bought, so it is secure, the thousands of jobs at Heathrow or Gatwick that are at least for the foreseeable future. Manston is there and at stake and which we could lose to mainland Europe; I say to my hon. Friend the Minister and the House this is about all the other, ancillary jobs, and the tourism that we have to buy time if we are not going to lose and business that go with them. The cost to the country more jobs. Manston is never going to be another London from the loss of aviation business in the south-east to airport. What Manston can do is take traffic from mainland Europe is almost inestimable. Gatwick to release capacity, allow Gatwick to take A long time ago, I upset my right hon. Friend the traffic from Heathrow and free up the capacity there, Member for Saffron Walden (Sir Alan Haselhurst) when which is what we need in the short term while the I championed the cause of the airport at Stansted. I Government take long-term decisions. Manston is a remember saying then, “It’s not Heathrow or Stansted; national asset—not a regional or local asset—and we it’s Stansted or Schiphol.” That is even truer today than need to use it now. This country cannot afford to it was then. If I need to underscore that point, KLM waste it. Royal Dutch Airlines and Air France are now flying from Manston, in Kent, twice daily to Schiphol, as they 3.19 pm are from a number of other regional airports. They are not doing that for fun; they are doing it because they Mr Nick Raynsford (Greenwich and Woolwich) (Lab): can see there is business to be taken, from the south-east I am delighted to welcome you to the Chair, Madam of England in particular, to Schiphol to interline and to Deputy Speaker, and to welcome the Under-Secretary go on to all the other places in the world—literally, of State for Transport, the hon. Member for Scarborough anywhere that it is possible to fly to from Schiphol. We and Whitby (Mr Goodwill) to his post. I am pleased to cannot afford to sacrifice that business. be able to participate in the debate. This debate is about aviation strategy, but my worry I agree with the Select Committee on two of the three is that there is no aviation strategy. There is a commission, main themes in its report. First, it is completely right to and Sir Howard Davies will do his job and report by recognise the need for increased runway capacity and 2015. Then there will be a debate and more discussion, increased scope for aviation in the national interest—a and there will not be another strip of tarmac or another point made forcefully by my hon. Friend the Member building, or a Boris island, for 20 years. That is how for Liverpool, Riverside (Mrs Ellman). Secondly, I agree long it will take. We are losing business today—not with the vital importance of a hub and the inadequacy tomorrow, in a year’s time or in five years’ time, but of the other options, which do not provide a hub today. As we speak, business is transferring from the solution. United Kingdom to the mainland European airports. I am afraid, however, that the Committee has made a We cannot afford to sustain that loss. mistake in opting for Heathrow as the location of On the doorstep of London there is a place called Britain’s future hub. I fear that it has not learned the Manston, in Kent. It has the fourth longest runway in lessons of history. The right hon. Member for Saffron the country—it has taken Concorde and wide-body Walden (Sir Alan Haselhurst) gave us a certain amount 519 Aviation Strategy24 OCTOBER 2013 Aviation Strategy 520

[Mr Nick Raynsford] three years ago was a timely reminder of the serious risks associated with having an airport in a densely of that history, and I shall now amplify it a bit more. I populated area. suspect that I am almost as old as he is, and I recall the There is also the issue of air quality. I remind the Roskill committee. Like him, I was attracted to the Chair of the Select Committee, my hon. Friend the concept of an estuary airport at the time, and I was Member for Liverpool, Riverside, of what her Committee’s disappointed when the project initiated by the Heath report says on that issue. She quotes the Environment Government was cancelled by the incoming Labour Agency, which gave evidence about Heathrow to the Government in 1974 as an austerity measure. There are effect that echoes of recent history there, too. Cublington was the wrong solution—I entirely agree with the right hon. “concentrations of nitrogen dioxide were expected to continue to Gentleman that the idea of an inland airport was exceed the EU air quality limit for the foreseeable future.” wrong—but the crucial point is that Heathrow is in the Because of the heavy volume of vehicle and industry, wrong location. It might have been right in 1947, when there are already serious problems with air contamination we were looking for a new airport immediately after the in the surrounding area, so the airport is simply adding war, but by the 1970s it was clear that, because of its to them. location in an area of dense population, it was not the If we are going to have to have extra capacity and a right location for the long term. hub to allow expansion to, say, 150 million passengers a The subsequent history of all the inquiries into airport year, it is in my view inconceivable that this can be done expansion included the Layfield inquiry into terminal 4 at Heathrow. It should obviously be done in an appropriate and the Vandermeer inquiry into terminal 5, as well as location. I believe that the estuary is the right location: the sad history of the third runway proposal in the it has the capacity for a four-runway hub airport; it 2000s. Every one of those projects was bitterly opposed, would allow 24-hour operation; and it would dramatically which produced dishonest responses from the airport reduce the number of people affected. operators, in saying that that was as far as they would go. I remember BAA stating emphatically at the time of the terminal 5 inquiry that that was it, and that if Rehman Chishti: With regard to the issue of safety, approval were granted, it would not seek any further which the right hon. Gentleman mentioned earlier, along expansion. Public confidence and trust in the airport with the capacity of an estuary airport, has he taken operators was totally destroyed, and people were further into consideration the fact that if the proposed estuary infuriated, when it came back seeking further expansion airport goes ahead, it will be 12 times more likely to be only a few years later. That history has undermined subject to bird strike than any other major airport in the public confidence in the veracity of the people responsible United Kingdom? Does not safety in that respect also for planning our airports. need to be taken into consideration as well as the fact We need to get this right. We need to have a strategy, that an airport is in London? rather than just continuing to make do and mend, and adding a bit more in an unsatisfactory and inappropriate Mr Raynsford: The hon. Gentleman makes an important location at Heathrow. It is inappropriate because around point about bird strike, but it occurs at Heathrow. A 700,000 people are seriously affected by the noise it number of aircraft are affected by bird strike at creates. My constituency is a huge distance from Heathrow, Heathrow—and, indeed, at other airports internationally, yet I get more complaints about the noise from aircraft including Hong Kong, which is in a waterside location—so approaching Heathrow than I do about the aircraft these problems have to be addressed and are addressed using City airport, which is just across the river from by airlines at the moment. It is not at all inconceivable— me. My constituency is far outside the 55 dB contour—let indeed, it is absolutely feasible—to take appropriate alone the 57db one—yet there are still people there who measures to provide safeguards against that particular are deeply affected by aircraft noise. hazard and some of the other hazards that might be encountered—instances of fog in the estuary, for example. Mr Jenkin: The aircraft noise that we get in North Although evidence suggests that there is no greater Essex comes from early morning flights coming into incidence of fog in the estuary than there is at Heathrow, Heathrow, and on a quiet morning it can be disturbing. it is an issue that needs to be taken into account. We would get no disturbance from a Thames estuary Practical issues certainly need to be addressed, but I do airport. not accept that this problem is a showstopper, which prevents us from considering the option. Mr Raynsford: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely Other hugely important issues for future planning right; I am with him on that. include the way in which people get to an airport. It is notable that 25% of all the people in the European Heathrow’s problem is that is located very close to the Union who are seriously affected by airport noise are to M4-M25 junction, which is already a heavy generator be found around Heathrow. The airport cannot operate of air pollution and traffic congestion. The modal split 24 hours a day, and any attempts to relax the restrictions in respect of access to Heathrow is heavily dominated on night flights are strongly contested. That, too, has an by the motor car. One of the great advantages of the impact on the efficacy of the airport and makes it estuary airport, which I am afraid the Select Committee impossible to operate as a proper international hub that did not recognise in its report, is that it would effect a can receive aircraft at all times of the day and night. very considerable modal shift by having a far greater Furthermore, the approach path to Heathrow over central proportion of passengers—estimated at 60% by advocates London is potentially hazardous. The incident involving of the Foster-Halcrow scheme on the Isle of Grain—coming an aircraft coming down short of the runway two or by rail. 521 Aviation Strategy24 OCTOBER 2013 Aviation Strategy 522

Looking at the Select Committee report, it was a little we not learnt from the fact that, although every member disappointing to see an access map based on drive times of the last Government was absolutely committed to being used to argue the case that access to the estuary getting that proposal through, it did not go through? site would be more difficult and slower than at Heathrow. That was due to the sheer scale of opposition from west Surely we should be doing our best to try to discourage London constituencies. Far more marginal constituencies driving to airports and to encourage the modal shift, would be affected by the development of Heathrow which will also help to reduce air-quality problems. than would be affected by the choice of any other possible site for an airport. It is simply not possible to Mrs Ellman: Is my right hon. Friend concerned about generate enough political support for development at the £30 billion cost of an estuary airport and the impact Heathrow—one party or another will always oppose it. of the closure of Heathrow, with the massive numbers Which mayoral candidate will stand, and be elected, of jobs involved there? on a pro-Heathrow policy? That will never happen. Ken Livingstone was against development at Heathrow, Boris Mr Raynsford: The £30 billion cost is, of course, Johnson is against it, and I guarantee that all three entirely conjectural. I understand that the Select Committee members of the main political parties who stand in the took evidence from Oxera, but as its report says: mayoral election will be against it. It is never going to “Oxera has used the following assumptions, based on recent happen. proposals, although Oxera has not tested the validity of these estimates.” Jim Fitzpatrick (Poplar and Limehouse) (Lab): The I have to say that the figures showed a cost for a third hon. Gentleman is making an interesting point, to runway at Heathrow of £8 billion to £9 billion, whereas which I hope to return if I am lucky enough to be called we now see from the latest Heathrow proposals that it is to speak. Given that the Conservative party went into likely to cost a minimum of £18 billion. I therefore do the 2010 general election as the only party that was not think that the figures in the report necessarily totally opposed to the third runway at Heathrow, why support my hon. Friend’s case. did it not win that sweep of west London marginals?

Mr Jenkin: I can tell the hon. Gentleman that we 3.29 pm would have won even fewer seats in London had we Mr Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con): supported the Heathrow case. There is no doubt about May I join others in congratulating you on your election that. Why does he think that my hon. Friend the Member to your new office, Madam Deputy Speaker? It is a for Richmond Park (Zac Goldsmith) is so strongly great pleasure to be speaking in one of your debates for opposed to a new runway at Heathrow? the first time. I also congratulate the Under-Secretary of State for Transport, my hon. Friend the Member Alok Sharma (Reading West) (Con): Is my hon. Friend for Scarborough and Whitby (Mr Goodwill), on his suggesting that Heathrow is not the right hub airport, appointment as the Minister responsible for aviation. and does he support the proposal for an estuary airport? Welcome to the hot seat! If so—and I suspect that that is the argument that he is I commend the hon. Member for Liverpool, Riverside about to advance—does he believe that Heathrow should (Mrs Ellman) and her Committee for tackling this close, which would lead to the loss of many, many jobs? important issue at a time when it is very topical. As a fellow Select Committee Chairman, I can vouch for the Mr Jenkin: If my hon. Friend will forgive me, I will fact that policy inquiries such as this are the most develop my argument further before dealing with that difficult in which to engage. Certainly the evidence is point. the most difficult to assess. However, while I agree with The Davies commission has a hugely difficult task to the right hon. Member for Greenwich and Woolwich perform. It must take a strategic view, and that means (Mr Raynsford) that the hon. Lady has got some things taking a long-term view. I think that the Select Committee right, I think that some of her Committee’s decisions has inevitably fallen victim to the pile of evidence were wrong. shunted in its direction by business. Yes, we should I congratulate the hon. Lady on recognising that listen to business, but business does not tend to take a London will not survive as a global city unless we view that covers more than about seven to 10 years— maintain its connectivity. Being a city is about being perhaps a maximum of 15. We need the Davies commission connected. If we want London to remain the world’s to take a 50-year view. The chief of Ryanair—bless his global financial centre—the premier international city—we cotton socks—and, indeed, the chief of British Airways must have international connectivity. Aviation services are not taking a 50-year view; they are taking a much are the new rivers of our generation. Along with the shorter view than that. airwaves and the internet, aviation is what connects The Davies commission needs to recognise that taking cities nowadays, and if we cut ourselves off by persevering a 50-year view means stepping outside many of the with a patch-and-mend aviation policy in London and immediate short-term controversies. It is significant the south-east, we shall see an end to London’s global that the Select Committee has not come up with a status in our lifetimes. long-term solution to our airports question, but has The hon. Lady is right about “Heathwick”—it just merely suggested, rather tentatively, that there should would not work—and she is entirely right about hubs. be one more runway at Heathrow, and then probably However, she is wrong about Heathrow. As the right another. If the Committee wants a four-runway hub hon. Member for Greenwich and Woolwich pointed airport at Heathrow, why did it not just spell that out? I out, experience and the political reality tell us that there think that it has been diverted by short-term commercial will simply not be any new runways at Heathrow. Have interests and has not taken that 50-year view. 523 Aviation Strategy24 OCTOBER 2013 Aviation Strategy 524

Mrs Ellman: The hon. Gentleman is wrong. The landed on a densely populated area and people would Committee looked at the future and the possibility of be crying out for the airport to be closed on safety high-speed rail links between London and Birmingham, grounds. and it says that that would produce a different situation. Big airports have been moved before: notably British engineers and British planning in Hong Kong moved Mr Jenkin: I perfectly accept that, but we are committed Hong Kong international airport—an airport of to a hub. We need a hub, and we need a decision to build comparable size—to a new island site. As that has been a four-runway hub now. Once we have reached that done before, it can be done again, and this is the vision conclusion, all the logic drives us towards having a the Davies commission needs to have to deliver on its Thames estuary airport. remit. It must not get sucked back into a shorter-term Not a single objection has been raised to a Thames view and propose a patch-and-mend solution—a runway estuary airport—not cost, not bird strikes, not sea level here and a runway there. I believe that Manston will rise—that is a showstopper; and then there are the have a big role to play, particularly in the interim, advantages of a Thames estuary airport: it is achievable, because it will take time to build a four-runway airport and achievable within a predictable time frame; and its in the Thames estuary. We have to solve this problem connectivity is better than that of any other possible site once and for all and to take the really big strategic for a four-runway hub, and that almost includes Heathrow. decision that will ensure that London and the south-east Because it is already almost on the HS1 route, it has remain a globally connected part of the world, and that better rail connections to European onward destinations London remains the global city it deserves to be. than any other possible site. It is also closer to the City of London by rail time than Heathrow. As the right 3.39 pm hon. Member for Greenwich and Woolwich said, its connectivity by non-road is better than any other possible Jim Fitzpatrick (Poplar and Limehouse) (Lab): I am site, so that puts it firmly on the agenda, as does the fact pleased to congratulate you on your election, Madam that east of London is where we need regeneration and Deputy Speaker; this is my first opportunity to do so investment. formally. I am delighted to follow the hon. Member for This is the visionary approach that should be adopted Harwich and North Essex (Mr Jenkin). He rightly said by the Davies commission. The estuary airport is the that this is a crucial issue for UK plc, but after that I best environmental option because a bird habitat that stopped agreeing with him as he went on to develop his would be affected can be replicated and replaced—or support for the estuary airport and the proposal of even doubled—elsewhere, and the Ramsar sites can be Mayor Boris Johnson, which is very much the wrong moved. It is the best safety option, because there would one. His suggestion of closing Heathrow would be an be no more flying over populated areas, and it is the economic disaster for London, certainly for west London. best noise option, too. Some 750,000 people live under I also welcome the Minister to the Chamber. When the 50 dB-plus noise footprint of Heathrow, which is he was my shadow in 2007-08, he coveted my office and why a decision there is impossible. Almost no people told me that he would have it one day. He has now got will be living under such a noise level around the it, and I hope he enjoys it—of course, it was not my Thames estuary airport, which is why this is a no-brainer. office, but that of the Under-Secretary of State for Transport. I would be surprised if he does not enjoy his Alok Sharma rose— time there. May I also welcome my hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool South (Mr Marsden) to the Mr Jenkin: I am sorry, but I am not going to give way shadow Front-Bench position? We have already had again as I do not have much time. one or two discussions, and I wish them both well in I just want to deal with the point about the closure of developing the aviation strategy that has been suggested Heathrow. It would be a very big decision, but not a by the Transport Committee. catastrophe—it is an opportunity. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Riverside (Mrs Ellman), the Chair of the Committee, Mr David Lammy (Tottenham) (Lab) rose— and commend the Committee’s report to the House. I agree with the vast majority of its conclusions. Mr Jenkin: I am not giving way. Recommendation 34 is the most important, and that is It is an opportunity to create 250,000 new homes what I shall be seeking reassurances from the Minister west of London—a new hi-tech city that has all the and the shadow Minister about in due course. infrastructure already in place. It is a huge opportunity Colleagues will know that I was the aviation Minister to solve the shortage of housing problem in London, in the previous Labour Government between 2007 and and to drive growth west of London, not to close it 2009, during which time I argued for the third runway, down. I am afraid that we can come to a slightly myopic both in the House and outside, and that I was shadow view if we do no more than talk to people who work at aviation Minister until the Syria debate a couple of Heathrow. We will get the view that somehow this months ago. I have therefore spent a lot of time looking change is bad. All change is difficult, but this is a at this issue. The Select Committee’s examination is change that needs to be made. timely and its recommendations are food for thought In this age, nobody in their right mind would choose for the Government, so account ought to be taken of to put London’s hub airport where Heathrow is located. them. There only needs to be one accident, and we nearly had I will not repeat all the statistics that my hon. Friend that a few years ago when the airliner with frozen fuel the Member for Liverpool, Riverside set out, but I will came down on the edge of the runway. If it had come say that aviation is responsible for a turnover of £28 billion down half a mile short of that spot, it would have and 120,000 directly employed jobs, and that it raises 525 Aviation Strategy24 OCTOBER 2013 Aviation Strategy 526

£9 billion in tax and duty. In addition, most of the support for the village opposed to the third runway at £18 billion achieved through tourism is raised from air Heathrow. When the right hon. Ladies were moved and passengers. All that demonstrates the importance of the new Ministers were brought in, that was a sign of aviation to the UK economy and UK plc. It has been encouragement for the aviation industry and those who clear that the vast majority of the speakers in the debate support additional capacity. However, when the Under- have underscored the importance of a hub airport in Secretary of State for Transport, the hon. Member for that regard. However, there are also key concerns to Scarborough and Whitby (Mr Goodwill), and Baroness address—noise and the big problem of emissions—and Kramer, the predecessor of the hon. Member for Richmond recently we have seen the noise health study and the Park (Zac Goldsmith), were appointed, it was almost as report on impacts on human health. Both the 2003 if the Government were going back to where they were aviation White Paper and the third runway proposal before the last reshuffle. I would like reassurance from addressed those issues, as does the Select Committee. It the Minister about what that means. is important that they are addressed—they cannot be For me, the Transport Committee’s key recommendation ignored—so that residents under flight paths and near is No. 34. Whether we support the Heathrow plan, the airports are reassured. estuary plan or point to point, there is general agreement The 2003 White Paper pointed the way forward, and that capacity is an issue, as well as about the importance the 2007 proposal for a third runway was hotly contested. of aviation to UK plc and the significance of a hub The Conservative party made that a party political issue airport. The Davies commission at least gives us a in the run-up to the 2010 general election. That was chance of a fresh start and an opportunity to try to political opportunism. I am not criticising that; I suspect build consensus so that there is not the party political that we probably would have done the same thing if we squabbling of the past 10, 20 or 30 years and the had been on the other side. I would hope that we would piecemeal approach to aviation that was cited by the not have done, but we did not have the opportunity to right hon. Member for Saffron Walden (Sir Alan demonstrate that opportunism, whereas the Conservatives Haselhurst). did. A clutch of west London marginals did not fall Mr Jenkin: Will the hon. Gentleman reflect that if because Heathrow has underlying, solid support in west Davies comes down in favour of some cobbled together London, however. compromise on Heathrow, we will go straight back into Naturally, the Lib Dems are in complete denial on that kind of paralysing debate? If he comes down in aviation—at least they have been consistent on that. favour of a Thames estuary airport, that will be decisive One of the red lines of the coalition agreement was, and a way forward. There will be far more consensus “No aviation capacity whatsoever.” around a long-term solution than around a patch-and- mend, short-term one. Mr MacNeil: I am a bit stunned. Has the hon. Gentleman put his finger on something that the Lib Jim Fitzpatrick: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman Dems have been consistent about over the past few for making the point. He said that there was no showstopper years, both in opposition and in government? That for the estuary option, but for me the showstopper must be some sort of record; I congratulate him on his is the £50 billion to £70 billion—depending on the observation. estimate—of public sector money that it would cost. The options for Heathrow, Gatwick, Stansted and elsewhere Jim Fitzpatrick: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman involve private sector money, which is a whole different for pointing out that, as we all know, the Lib Dems are ball game. not consistent in opposition and in government. He If the Davies commission says that Heathrow is the rightly says, however, that this is one issue on which answer, some people will oppose that—the Lib Dems, they have been consistent—consistently in denial. my hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington When we look at the international competition from (John McDonnell) and, I suspect, my hon. Friend the Schiphol, Charles de Gaulle and Frankfurt, and from Member for Hammersmith (Mr Slaughter). Some have the new airports that have been built or are being built been consistently against aviation or Heathrow, but I in Dubai, Abu Dhabi, Berlin and Istanbul, we see the hope that the general consensus will be, “Davies has importance of aviation and having a aviation hub. We been given three years to do the job. We have wasted are falling behind the times. However, when the Prime 20 years already—we can’t waste another decade.” Minister indicated that the Government were appointing the Davies commission, we saw the beginning of one of Rehman Chishti: I support a lot of what the hon. the longest U-turns in recent British politics. The moving Gentleman has said about the estuary airport. Does he of the right hon. Members for Putney (Justine Greening) agree that my hon. Friend the Member for Harwich and and for Chipping Barnet (Mrs Villiers) to other North Essex (Mr Jenkin) has to explain which public Departments and the appointment of the current Secretary services he would cut to fund the £50 billion to £70 billion of State for Transport clearly indicated that, after three needed to build the airport, which is completely unviable? years, Conservative Back Benchers who had been arguing Jim Fitzpatrick: I agree, and I am sure that the hon. the case—as did the CBI, the British Chambers of Gentleman will have the opportunity to develop those Commerce, London First, the TUC and others—had points. gone to the Government and said, “This issue is too My conclusion is that everybody in the Chamber important. We’ve got it wrong and we need additional agrees that we need an aviation strategy. The Davies capacity.” commission provides a new opportunity. Whatever its I think that the Conservative manifesto for 2015 will conclusions, they will be controversial and opposed by have a commitment to the Davies commission’s conclusions, some. However, we need a strategy—of that there is no although I want to hear what the Minister says about doubt—and hopefully the Davies commission will give that because he has history on this issue, given his us the chance to have one. 527 Aviation Strategy24 OCTOBER 2013 Aviation Strategy 528

3.48 pm It is not possible to solve this capacity problem within one or even two Parliaments. Consequently, there is a Mike Thornton (Eastleigh) (LD): I was going to join real danger that political differences, whether genuine colleagues in congratulating our new Deputy Speaker, or contrived, could prevent a proper, long-term strategy. but unfortunately she has left the Chamber. I congratulate These are complex matters. We therefore welcome the the Minister and his shadow on their appointments. setting up of the independent commission on aviation On consistency, perhaps I should ask Labour Members chaired by Sir Howard Davies, which is considering the about the previous Government’s consistency on UK’s airport capacity needs and how to address them. maintaining a balanced budget, the 10p income tax As the hon. Member for Liverpool, Riverside (Mrs Ellman) band, tax allowances and so on. Inconsistency has been said, the commission will publish an interim report rife on their side of the Chamber. expected before the end of this year and a final report in As an MP with a thriving and well-run airport in my 2015. It seems to me that there is little point in establishing constituency, I am well aware of the importance of civil such a commission if we do not wait to pay attention to aviation to the economy of my constituency and that of its findings. I am sure that the whole House recognises the United Kingdom as a whole. We are proud of the the need for a long-term, consistent strategy. Liberal part that Eastleigh aerodrome, as it was then, played in Democrat Members look forward to Sir Howard Davies’ the defence of this country in world war two, because it interim report, which is due shortly. was there that Reginald Mitchell designed and built the Spitfire. We are still very proud, although it has now Zac Goldsmith (Richmond Park) (Con): My unfortunately become Southampton international airport. understanding is that the Liberal Democrats have ruled out Heathrow expansion completely, whatever happens Growth in demand for air travel is inevitable, and under the next Government or any Government after responding to that growth through infrastructure and that. In that case, why did they sanction the inclusion of policy takes time. Although it is Liberal Democrat Heathrow expansion in the terms of reference for the policy to oppose a third runway at Heathrow and the Howard Davies commission? Surely that means either Mayor of London’s proposal to build a brand new that they have absolutely no intention of forming any island in the Thames estuary, we fully accept that we part of the next Government or that they have wasted need to address the forecast lack of capacity. That can an enormous amount of time and money, and, I suspect, partly be done by redirecting some air travel on to rail, have been playing a few games at the same time? better use of airports away from London and the south-east, and more efficient use of existing resources. While Mike Thornton: The point is that when one sets up an Heathrow may be full in terms of flights, there are still independent report one has to allow it to report. too many flights that are not full and too many planes that are too small. We must remember that four other airports besides Heathrow serve London. Zac Goldsmith: So why have you ruled Heathrow out already? The economic needs of the country must also take into account our obligation and moral duty to take a Mike Thornton: We will have to wait for the report to lead in combating the increase in carbon dioxide in the see the answer to that. [Interruption.] atmosphere. One can argue about the speed and effects of this, but the fact that a carbon atom reflects back Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. I heat is as much a law of physics as the fact that if I think we will work through the Chair. Have you finished? dropped my glasses they would fall to the ground. A build-up of CO2 acts like an overcoat. Yesterday, the hon. Member for South Antrim (Dr McCrea), who is Mike Thornton: Yes, Mr Deputy Speaker. not in the Chamber today, made clear, in advocating the abolition of air passenger duty, his scepticism about the Mr Deputy Speaker: No problem. I call David Lammy. human contribution to global warming. However, if he went out in the sun and then put his overcoat on, I think 3.54 pm he would soon find that he got a lot warmer than just by standing in the sun. Mr David Lammy (Tottenham) (Lab): It is now 10 years since a Government White Paper highlighted the need for action on London’s airport capacity—10 years of Mr MacNeil: In the debate on APD on 18 April, dithering and hand-wringing, of refusing to make difficult Scottish National party Members made repeated attempts decisions about aviation and of inaction—so I welcome to tease out from the hon. Member for Argyll and Bute this debate as an opportunity to highlight the urgency (Mr Reid), who is also not here today, the Liberal with which this issue must now be addressed. Democrat position on APD. Has that become apparent to the hon. Gentleman since his arrival in this House? In the time that successive Governments have pushed this problem into the long grass, London and Britain have lost out. The number of destinations served by Mike Thornton: I thank the hon. Gentleman for Heathrow has dropped by a fifth in the past 20 years alluding to my rival. Obviously our position was that a and it now has connections to just half the number of per-plane passenger duty was far more sensible than an cities served by Amsterdam Schiphol. We have been individual, per-passenger payment. Unfortunately, overtaken by our rivals—that is for sure. Schiphol, international regulations and laws do not allow for that Charles de Gaulle and Frankfurt all now outrun us. possibility at the moment. It would be good if we could Delays to flights landing at Heathrow are now the seek to change that and use a far more efficient per-plane highest of any major airport in Europe. This simply tax system that encourages full aeroplanes. cannot continue. 529 Aviation Strategy24 OCTOBER 2013 Aviation Strategy 530

I want to be clear: it is beyond doubt that London I hope that the Davies interim report due at the end and the south-east vitally need increased air capacity. I of the year will show that real progress has been made am pleased that the Davies commission has also reached in coming to a conclusion. It would be disappointing if that conclusion, as, of course, has the Transport Committee. the interim report consists merely of a long list of all Our capital and the surrounding area face an air-capacity the options we already know are on the table, many of shortfall of £16 million by 2030 and £57 million by which have been discussed today. The commission was 2040. The Department for Transport forecasts that set up over a year ago. We must begin to get some demand for UK airports will double by 2050—an increase concrete early results. I would like to see a shortlist of of more than 100 million passengers. two or three of the best options for increasing Britain’s There are no easy choices in tackling this problem, airport capacity. That would provide a much clearer but not tackling it is simply out of the question. Last idea of the way forward and focus the debate on aviation, year, Germany overtook the UK for new investments, which is very much needed. which is hardly surprising given that it has significantly I am especially clear on one thing: one of London’s more connections to developing markets in China, India biggest success stories must not simply be wiped off the and Latin America. In fact, London has fewer weekly map. Heathrow airport is the busiest airport in the flights than its European rivals to most of the emerging world on the basis of passenger numbers. It directly or market economies. Heathrow has nearly half as many indirectly employs 230,000 people. The contribution of flights as Frankfurt to China’s airports, despite the fact the western wedge of London and the home counties that Britain’s trade always increases 20 times over when accounts for 10% of the country’s GDP. The percentage we have direct flights to that country. That is why, if of GDP that is contributed by London, at 21.9%, is the London is to have a next chapter in its ever-evolving highest that it has been since 1911. We therefore ought success story, measures must be introduced to increase to be very careful in talking about the idea that Heathrow its airport capacity. could somehow be shut overnight with no problem. I support the Government’s decision to set up the It was right that the last proposal for a third runway Davies commission to investigate all options and make at Heathrow was rejected, but that was largely because a comprehensive recommendation on the best way forward, it took no account of the population in the wider west but I see no need at all for Davies to take three years to London area. The recent proposals contain more make a recommendation. Why does this commission consideration of how to minimise noise levels and disruption need three years to report on something that the Transport to residents. It is obvious that the expansion of Heathrow Committee managed to report on in a matter of months? is one of the main options that the Davies commission Yes, it is crucial that we get the right decision, that a must consider. recommendation is not made hastily and that we should This debate must be based on the assumption that properly examine all of the options, but let us be airport capacity will be increased in addition to the honest: that will not take three years. continued success of Heathrow, not at its expense. Let us be clear: any strategy that results in closing one of Mr Slaughter: I think everybody now knows that the Britain’s most successful and important infrastructure reason why the commission will not report until after locations should be avoided like the plague. We should the next election is that the Conservative party does not rule out right now any option that would close Heathrow want to lose marginal seats in west London before it airport because it would be a disaster for London and comes out in favour of a third runway at Heathrow, for the country. which it undoubtedly will if it is in power after the next That includes the idea of a new hub airport in the election. Thames estuary. It is clear that building a new hub airport in the east of London would require Heathrow to be closed. That would decimate the west London Mr Lammy: My hon. Friend makes the point that I economy and end all the wider benefits that Heathrow was about to make. He is absolutely right. brings to the city. If that option ever was on the table, it We have to be bold, honest and ambitious about what should be taken off the table right now. Not only is it this country needs. Every week delayed is a week in economically and technically unfeasible; it would mean which London and our country lose and our competitors closing Britain’s best and most successful airport. gain. Every week lost is a week in which British industry Thankfully, there is only one person in this country who loses potential business to its international rivals. genuinely seems to believe that the answer to Britain’s airport problem lies in building a new £65-billion airport Zac Goldsmith: I am yet to meet a single person other in the middle of a river. Unfortunately, that person than those who occupy the Government Front Bench happens to be the Mayor of London. who supports the deadline falling after the next general election. I do not think that anyone on our Back Benches Mr Jenkin: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way? believes that that is a credible deadline, so in real terms Mr Lammy: I suspect that there is a second person. I this is probably in the hands of the Labour party. If it give way. wants to force the agenda, I suspect that would be very easy to achieve. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman Mr Jenkin: Moving a major airport is a dramatic could put some pressure on his own Front Benchers. idea, but it would happen over a period of time and would be an evolution. If Heathrow ceased to be an Mr Lammy: I think the pressure I am able to put on airport, there would not just be a big hole. There would my Front Benchers is about exactly the same as the be a massive opportunity to fill the space with new pressure the hon. Gentleman is able to put on his. He industries, homes and economic activity. That would be makes a very good point. a huge opportunity for the whole of west London. 531 Aviation Strategy24 OCTOBER 2013 Aviation Strategy 532

Mr Lammy: Ministers often talk about the country’s 2005 and 2011 there was a 49% growth in the number of finances. We must be absolutely clear about the staggering passengers flying from UK regional airports to transfer cost of that proposal. at overseas hubs such as Schiphol and Charles de Gaulle. I will end by saying that it is important that we That represents a loss of business and jobs to the UK recognise the contribution of Stansted—an airport that that we should do everything we can to retain. is below capacity as we speak. It is ridiculous that the I note the Transport Committee’s recommendation journey from London to Stansted takes so long and is of a third runway at Heathrow, and I commend it on so unpredictable. We need to deal with the infrastructure the urgency of its deliberations. It has come to a conclusion on the West Anglia line. It needs to be upgraded so that a lot faster than the Davies commission, which will Stansted is more viable. release its interim report at the end of this year. There has been discussion of the costs, which I am sure will Mr Jenkin: What about the cost? continue, but the proposed expansion of Heathrow would have much less of an impact on public expenditure Mr Lammy: That is a cost that would benefit Stratford, and the Exchequer than a Thames estuary airport. London and the airport. The other innovative proposal that I have found interesting to learn about is the Heathrow hub, proposed 4.3 pm by the Centre for Policy Studies. It talks about doubling capacity from two to four runways and suggests that Alok Sharma (Reading West) (Con): I congratulate that can be done at no cost to the public purse. the Under-Secretary of State for Transport, my hon. Friend the Member for Scarborough and Whitby Zac Goldsmith: Is my hon. Friend not slightly alarmed (Mr Goodwill). He is not just a decent man, but hugely that that study takes no account at all of the extra competent, and I am sure that he will do brilliantly in impact of congestion? Just a third runway would lead his new role. to an extra 25 million road passenger journeys a year, I will start by giving some figures on the airports that and a fourth would presumably have more or less the are being built in China. The Mayor of London has same effect. Can he explain how our roads would be been to that country recently, as has the Chancellor. able to handle 50 million extra road passenger journeys Between 2005 and 2010, 33 new airports were constructed, a year to and from Heathrow? Does he share my concern taking the total number to 175. By 2015, there will be that the costs simply do not exist in the report that he more than 230 airports in China. If my maths is correct—I cited? am an accountant by training, so I think it is—there will have been 55 new airports over five years, an average of Alok Sharma: Clearly, that is exactly what the Davies 11 a year. I know that it is a developing nation, that is commission should come up with. I am not suggesting much larger than us and has the advantage of a different that the CPS’s proposal is the only one in town, I am form of government, but if we compare and contrast just highlighting it as a particularly interesting one. that with what we have had in this country, it makes us think that we have not got to grips with the need for We have waited a long time for a conclusion, so we more airport capacity. might as well see what the Davies commission comes up with, but the one thing I would find disturbing in any The Transport Committee made the point, as a number final recommendation would be a solution that ultimately of Members have today, that it has been a decade since led to the closure of Heathrow. That would be bad news the last White Paper on the subject, and at that time it for business and jobs. I do not agree with the right hon. was 20 years since the previous one. We are back to the Member for Tottenham (Mr Lammy), who is no longer future, because now the Davies commission has said in his place, about everything, but I do agree with his that there is a need for more airport capacity in the points about the impact that it would have not just in south-east, but we still have not concluded where it London but in the western wedge, which covers areas should be. such as the Thames valley and Reading, which I represent. As Members have said, there are two problems with As he said, a report commissioned by a range of local the fact that we have not reached a decision and that the enterprise partnerships covering the Thames valley, pace has been slow. The first is that the lack of certainty Buckinghamshire, west London and Oxfordshire concluded is bad for business and investment. I know that my hon. that £1 in every £10 of UK economic output is generated Friend the Member for Harwich and North Essex in the western wedge area around Heathrow, and that (Mr Jenkin) will agree with that, although we may not aviation and related activity at Heathrow supports about agree about the solution. The other problem is that 120,000 jobs there. If a new hub airport was to be built others are getting ahead. A number of Members have to the east of London and Heathrow was to be closed made the point that Frankfurt, Schiphol and Charles de by 2030, because I do not think anybody is suggesting Gaulle are all getting ahead in the global race that we that we are going to end up with two hub airports— want to win. I was at a meeting this week at which somebody who knows the airport industry well made Adam Afriyie (Windsor) (Con): My conclusion differs the point that people at Schiphol talk about their airport slightly from that of my hon. Friend. I am the Member being Heathrow’s third runway, which says something. of Parliament for Windsor, where we are very much Another sobering fact that I have found in considering affected by our noisy but welcome neighbour at Heathrow, the matter is that more flights leave Frankfurt for cities and there is certainly a scenario in which Heathrow in China in a week than leave Heathrow for the whole could continue to operate as a hub airport if the estuary world in a weekend. That must tell us something. Figures airport were to take over. This scaremongering about from the International Air Transport Association show hundreds of thousands of jobs disappearing is not that due to the lack of capacity at Heathrow, between necessarily entirely helpful. 533 Aviation Strategy24 OCTOBER 2013 Aviation Strategy 534

Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Idonot Zac Goldsmith: Richmond Park. want to scaremonger, but the hon. Gentleman is hoping to catch my eye later and we are running out of time. If John McDonnell: Richmond Park. That posh area of we have more interventions, I will have to drop the time London, anyway. limit. I agree with the hon. Member for Richmond Park Alok Sharma: I note the point my hon. Friend is (Zac Goldsmith). All of us with sound common sense making, but the idea that we would have two hub should band together on a cross-party basis and insist airports operating— that the Front Benchers agree that the Davies commission should report in full before the general election, so that Adam Afriyie: Regional. we can come to some conclusion. We should be able to go into the next general election with a clear view from Alok Sharma: Well, let us see what the Davies commission each political party about their position on future aviation comes up with, but I personally think that it is unlikely strategy. that we could operate a system with two hub airports. The report goes on to say that the closure of Heathrow I cannot see any political party going in to the next would put at risk another 170,000 jobs in the western election in favour of expansion at Heathrow. Before the wedge area. We can have a discussion about the number last general election, the Prime Minister made it very of jobs at risk and about the fact that, if there was going clear that as part of his greening of the Conservative to be an estuary airport, things would not just change party it would come out against the third runway at overnight. There is no doubt, however, that there would Heathrow. The Lib Dems, to give them their due, have be a huge economic impact in a region that is the consistently opposed it—the one thing on which they powerhouse of Britain in driving the economy forward. have been consistent throughout. The current leader of the Labour party opposed the expansion of Heathrow The Davies commission must clearly take into account and has made that clear publicly. That might be why— the economic benefit of any of the recommendations it together with his position on Syria—my hon. Friend makes and, of course, the environmental impact. We the Member for Poplar and Limehouse (Jim Fitzpatrick) have to take into account what business wants and what is on the Back Benches, I do not know. The politics of airlines want. If we build another airport, will airlines this is that there is no consensus in favour of expansion come? Will British Airways move to a new hub airport? at Heathrow, and so far there is no consensus in favour Ultimately, it comes down to the cost to the public of a new airport in the estuary. The arguments put purse resulting from any new expansion. forward have been about cost, and I cannot see anyone Those who have been in this place for many years will grasping that nettle. see this debate as another groundhog day in the life of Parliament’s debates on aviation policy. I suspect we will see a lot more groundhog days. Of course, the Mr Jenkin: There is no knockout blow in the report question is very difficult, but once the commission about cost. The cost is reckoned by the consortium to makes its final recommendation what we want is politicians be about £23 billion, and it agrees that any airport will who will show a bit of backbone and implement the need infrastructure that is funded by the taxpayer. recommendations on expanding airport capacity in the south-east, whatever those recommendations might be. John McDonnell: I think that anything that gets past To duck the question for another electoral cycle will do £40 billion frightens the horses of any future a huge disservice to Britain’s hopes of succeeding in the Government—I apologise for allowing the intervention, global race. Mr Deputy Speaker. I will press on. In recent months, the debate has changed significantly 4.12 pm as people have become more aware of the environmental John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab): I and health consequences of what is already happening agree with the hon. Member for Reading West (Alok at Heathrow. A series of reports from Imperial College Sharma): this is like the annual reunion of the Heathrow London and Harvard have demonstrated that, as a debate. The Transport Committee always comes out result of air and noise pollution, the area has low birth with a report in favour of expansion. I have a lot of weights. Children’s growth patterns are affected even as respect and affection for my hon. Friend the Member they grow older, and there has been some growth delay for Liverpool, Riverside (Mrs Ellman), but it is the as a result. In addition, a huge study over 12 boroughs same recommendation every time it reports. We then has demonstrated an increased risk of heart attack and have a discussion and we usually put the decision off. As stroke as a result of aviation noise. If anyone comes the right hon. Member for Saffron Walden (Sir Alan forward at this stage in favour of further expansion at Haselhurst) said, we also put off having a discussion on Heathrow, there will not be protests like last time and aviation strategy more generally, including coming to a the Camp for Climate Action—I was there—or anything conclusion. on that scale; the protest will be multiplied tenfold. It I agree that we should not put off any decisions from will be the largest environmental battle that the country here on in. The Davies commission is a fudge to get has seen, and I will be part of it. everyone past the next general election without having If there is a fudge at the next general election, and to come to any conclusion so that the electorate cannot then a decision is made to expand Heathrow, people will know what any political party stands for on this political feel that they have been conned and betrayed. That will issue. That is not good enough. It is not good enough motivate them even more into saying that democracy in for parliamentary democracy and it is not good enough this country has been undermined, and there will be for my constituents. more direct action as a result. It is important to convince I agree with the hon. Member for—is it Putney? the leaders of the different political parties that they 535 Aviation Strategy24 OCTOBER 2013 Aviation Strategy 536

[John McDonnell] the need for further capacity at Heathrow is to ensure that it is not bigger, but better, which is exactly what the need to bring forward the Davies commission to before Conservatives said at the last election. We should manage the next election, so that we can have a proper debate it better by moving the short-haul and point-to-point and be honest with the electorate about its conclusions. flights elsewhere. I do not accept the argument that we I enjoy a good joke, so I saw the submission by cannot have a collective hub. We can have one as long as Heathrow Airport Ltd to the Davies commission—I do we ensure connectivity between the airports. not know whether Members have seen it. It does not We need that rational debate to take place. I welcome just want one more runway, it wants three; it wants to the report as part of the debate—it is rubbish, but it at obliterate not only my constituency, but two others as least stimulates debate. I urge Members not to allow the well. The hon. Member for Spelthorne (Kwasi Kwarteng) deal that is going on between the political leaderships to is not in his place, but he is a prime advocate for put the debate off until after the election. Let us have expansion at Heathrow. Now he has been taken at his the Davies report before the election, and come to word—they want to expand into his constituency. His conclusions with which we can then go to the electorate. councillors have met and said, “We’re still in favour of Several hon. Members rose— expansion at Heathrow, as long as it is to the north”—a breathtaking act of nimbyism if ever I saw one. Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. I am The proposals by Heathrow Airport Ltd—now owned sorry but we have to introduce a time limit of four by Ferrovial, the Chinese sovereign state fund, and minutes—[Interruption.] Well, I do not think you have Qatar—looks at an expansion that will take 20,000 been helping with that, Mr MacNeil. people from their homes and expand air pollution, possibly to about 100,000 people. We are already beyond 4.21 pm EU limits; children in my constituency are already Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con): I suppose it was going into classrooms and handing over their puffers to inevitable that the debate would be dominated by London their teachers. The proposals would increase such things, and the south-east, but I remind the House that the perhaps tenfold. It will destroy whole communities, but northern economy is very dependent on improved I do not think people will sit back and allow that to communications, including better air services. I shall happen. I think they will mobilise. concentrate on the role of regional airports and, from a A new campaign has been launched called Back constituency point of view, Humberside airport, in Heathrow. It has basically come together and said, “We economic regeneration and development locally. are in favour of ensuring that we maintain the airport.” First, as a member of the Transport Committee, I I contacted it and said, “This is a wonderful initiative.” I should put my cards on the table about Heathrow. I was fully support that because we want to keep jobs in the not a member when the Committee conducted the area, and we can improve the quality of Heathrow and inquiry prior to the report, but I broadly agree with its look at how we expand to meet challenges, for example recommendations. The Chair of the Committee might that of China. Routes between China and Heathrow be somewhat reassured by that. have been limited because we have been refused access The Humberside area has been designated and recognised in some areas, but that is now opening up. There is by the Government as a potential area for major economic capacity at Heathrow to do that because if we took out development. To give a couple of examples, they have the short-haul flights—25% of flights at Heathrow are shown their support for the area by halving Humber short-haul or point-to-point—we could accommodate bridge tolls and creating the largest enterprise zone in those direct flights to China. the country. Only a month ago, the Prime Minister I was in favour of the Back Heathrow campaign, but highlighted the area in his party conference speech. then I discovered that it backs Heathrow only in favour We need better services in the area. Whatever happens of the airport’s recommendation to expand, and that it in London and the south-east, getting them will be a is actually funded by the airport itself. What a surprise. long job. All hon. Members recognise that, and Governments make a habit of kicking it into touch. Zac Goldsmith: I had something from Back Heathrow That point has been made clearly. Regional airports through my door as well. It calls itself, “The voice of the have a role to play in that respect. The Minister has silent majority of west London residents in favour of been to Humberside more than once, and will know Heathrow expansion”. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that Humberside airport would be ideally located if that it is a very, very silent majority in west London? only there were better connectivity between the various modes of transport. A railway line runs within a quarter John McDonnell: The silent majority is in an office by of a mile of the airport terminal, but there is no Heathrow airport and solely funded by Heathrow airport. air-train connection. That is worthy of consideration—I I cannot find a community group or a resident in favour have made that point regularly to the local enterprise of the expansion. Let us expose that campaign for what partnership, local authorities and the like. it is on the Floor of the House and ensure that people In the minute I have left, I should like to talk about are aware that it is a con of that nature. the impact of air passenger duty, which is particularly We want a sensible debate on aviation strategy. We relevant to regional airports. I have a note from Paul need to recognise that, realistically, London has seven Litten, the commercial director at Humberside airport. airports and eight runways serving it. We move more He recognises that the tax is required, but says that passengers than any capital city in the world. Paris is “it would be better to encourage airlines to move to smaller fifth behind London—nowhere near us. People make regional airports and take advantage of space, flexibility and the argument of business connectivity, but we come top customer demand but having a much lower APD amount for” of every poll on business connectivity. The answer to such airports. He says that 537 Aviation Strategy24 OCTOBER 2013 Aviation Strategy 538

“if you use the logic of the congestion charge in London, then should be protected. There are 360 other areas that have where there is a large demand, you should continue to tax; but contributed and are arguing for the benefits of Heathrow. apply a lower rate to those areas that need development.” The hon. Gentleman makes a good point. In other words, he says we need a smaller tax for Heathrow is a disappointing airport. If one travels to regional airports. Finally, he says: it by train, one straightaway meets a glass wall between “Let me know if this makes sense.” the train and the lifts. That is indicative of rest of It makes sense to me, so perhaps the Minister could tell Heathrow and terminal 5, where passengers seem to be us in his reply to the debate whether it makes sense to reversing into each other constantly. Gatwick is no the Government. better—a veritable rabbit warren that makes London City airport almost look like bliss. The Heathrow Express, Heathrow airport and the airlines seem unable to talk 4.24 pm to each other when there is a train delay—an example Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) of component efficiency rather than network efficiency (SNP): I will try to charge through what I have to say that is sadly all too typical around UK airports. and if any political enemies or friends wish to intervene There is doublethink at the heart of the relationship to give me another minute or two, they would be most with Heathrow.Recommendation 9 of the Select Committee welcome. report states: “It is imperative that the UK maintains its status as an international Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): You could aviation hub.” try to intervene on yourself. That seems to be about a badge of prestige rather than transporting people, as the hon. Member for North Mr MacNeil: I can always try, Mr Deputy Speaker. Thanet (Sir Roger Gale) said. I have mentioned, yesterday I know the importance of aviation. I fly probably and today, that decades of bilateral agreements have more than any other MP—at least four times a week favoured London airports to the detriment of Scotland and sometimes six times a week. At least, I did until and other places. This has now come back to bite the flights in my constituency were vandalised by the local south-east of England. One solution could be co-operation council, which axed 60% of inter-island flights between with the Dutch and the French. Schiphol and Paris are Stornoway and Benbecula and Barra and 100% of not that far away, and increased and improved surface flights to the most vulnerable island community. That transport could bring them closer. As the hon. Member was all the more strange given that they were public for North Thanet said, it is time, not distance, that service obligation routes. While the council can make matters to the passenger. A global mega-region arguments about rurality and peripherality in Edinburgh, encompassing either side of the Channel would benefit London or Brussels, the arguments hold no weight it passengers globally. There is an economic benefit to seems once it secured the money within its own corridors linking hubs, an argument I would make for the central of power. Indeed, flights used by people going for belt of Scotland, too. cancer treatment have been described by the council What happened to the south-east of England when leader as 10-minute tourist flights, which is very the London docklands lost its pre-eminence to Rotterdam disappointing. The flight was not 10 minutes and the will happen in aviation. Schiphol will win and Heathrow councillors he dragooned into voting to axe flights to will lose out, as the right hon. Member for Saffron these communities have not been to visit them since Walden (Sir Alan Haselhurst) said, because of the UK’s their election. The upshot of this transportational vandalism piecemeal approach. is that travel from one end of the Outer Hebrides to The right hon. Member for Tottenham (Mr Lammy) Edinburgh, London or Brussels is faster for most of the pointed out that with direct air links trade improves week than going to other end of the Outer Hebrides. twenty-fold. As a result of the imbalance in the UK, Why do I mention this? The debate has concentrated Scotland has definitely lost out; we have paid in, but we on the south-east of England and Heathrow, about are not getting the benefits. It is disappointing that this which there seems to be a love-hate relationship. London high-tax Government are not interested in reviewing has tremendous connectivity, with 360 destinations—almost APD at any point. Their “see no evil, hear no evil” one for every day of the year—which I think is more approach continues. In the meantime, Spain is getting than Paris, Frankfurt and Amsterdam enjoy, although rid of it and Barcelona has seen 37 new routes in the last the individual airports are better. year. APD is a demand-management tool for Heathrow and it comes at a tremendous price for other areas of Jim Fitzpatrick: The hon. Gentleman will be aware the UK, particularly Scotland. With independence, I that when I was Minister with responsibility for aviation, am hopeful that we can sort that one out. I heard repeated requests by Members from the regions for access to Heathrow. That clearly was not possible, as 4.30 pm my hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) said, because short-haul routes were Mark Reckless (Rochester and Strood) (Con): An taken out so that there could be flights to international estuary airport strategy would be binary and lumpy. destinations. The proposal is for one massive new airport opening at a single point in the future, but it would run the risk of Mr MacNeil: The building of Heathrow has been being half-empty when it opened, and in the meantime brought about through general UK taxation. Scots have we would have none of the capacity we need now. on average paid more tax than the rest of the UK in It is ridiculous to suggest, as the Mayor of London each of the last 30 years. We have contributed to Heathrow, did, that we could build such an airport in the same as have other areas of the UK, and our investment time it would take to add one runway to an existing 539 Aviation Strategy24 OCTOBER 2013 Aviation Strategy 540

[Mark Reckless] We have heard a lot about Heathrow, but what about Stansted, which we have also heard about? It needs airport. And all the while, the economy is suffering. The better train service connections. Perhaps even our Lib Stalinist command-and-control-economy assumption that Dem friends would support those extra train connections we could move hundreds of thousands of jobs to the to allow the half-empty runway to be better used. Thames estuary at the stroke of a Mayor’s or even a Gatwick should be strongly considered, too, because it Government’s pen is preposterous: many of these jobs has the money. It would only cost £5 billion to £9 billion would not move, many would move to Europe and —about one tenth of the Thames estuary airport—and many others would no longer be economical, because with the improved train connections, particularly the the capital and investment on which they depended Thameslink service to London Bridge and, crucially, to would be destroyed. The assumption that all the hotel Farringdon, it would be a credible option and provide and business infrastructure around Heathrow could be competition. rebuilt, cost-free, in the estuary airport is wrong. If people had to pay twice for that, many fewer jobs would 4.34 pm survive. We hear from the Mayor of London that Heathrow Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab): “Aviation could become like Kensington and Chelsea or Canary Strategy” is a great title for a debate; what we are Wharf, yet he has just been to the old airport in Hong actually having is the “Is Heathrow going to get away Kong, which, 15 years on, is still a shell, with next to no with it yet again?” debate yet again. I fear that those at development, in one of the fastest-growing economies Heathrow might get away with it, as those of us in west in the world. Boris told me that if he proposed this London who have debated these issues with them over seriously, he would come down to look at the Thames 30 years and seen how they operate think they might, estuary and the Hoo peninsula, in my constituency, because of political cowardice and the way in which where he wants to build it, but he has not come, so I can politicians of all parties have given in to the airport only assume that he is not serious. The Davies commission, lobby over that time. which did come, was absolutely astonished. It thought, Although we have had some excellent speeches today, having listened to Boris, that it was like a blank sheet of I am somewhat surprised by that, because at the moment paper, but there are more than 23,000 people living we have very little of substance to say that is new. The there, nine villages and some of the most important reason for that is partly the vacuum caused by the energy infrastructure in the country. Airports Commission not reporting until after 2015, for I am pleased at least that Transport for London has no reason whatever other than political convenience. recognised that we could not use HS1 to access that new That has created a vacuum into which has floated the airport—it would not have the capacity and there is no Mayor of London, with his frankly ludicrous suggestion where to put the trains at St Pancras—yet, like Fosters of an estuary airport. and Partners, which is in the clouds as much as my hon. Friend the Member for Harwich and North Essex Rehman Chishti: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? (Mr Jenkin), it is saying that there could be three other substantial railway projects, including a parallel new Mr Slaughter: I do not think I should. high-speed line. Even those three projects would not Not only is the idea of an estuary airport distraction provide the local access to work for the people coming politics of the worst kind; it is now affecting Stansted as into that airport, which would require further tunnelling well. Because the Mayor has virtually abandoned the under the Medway towns to get those people across the idea of an airport actually in the river, he is now looking two river pinch points. at the four-runway option at Stansted as a fallback Crucially, given the level of environmental protection position, which has mesmerised those at Stansted, who in this area, legislation states that there must be an cannot get on with their ordinary work. “absence of alternative solutions” even before we can The fact that we had three London airports in the consider building such an airport. It cannot be a credible same ownership for so long has constrained the debate option, therefore, if it has already been determined, as and let BAA, as it was then, keep control of the argument. the Davies commission must, that there are other credible I still do not understand why so many politicians—this options. includes the last Labour Government—are mesmerised I heard that the scheme would cost £80 billion, but by the airports and airline industry, which are simply the Deutsch Bank aviation analyst tells me it would be looking after their commercial advantage. That has £120 billion. Of that, up to £30 billion would be public happened to such an extent that the Conservatives in money. It is absolutely extraordinary. It is incredible. I opposition were saying that HS2 should go via Heathrow. do not think any Government would fund that. What That was another mad suggestion, which slowed down about the private money? Ignoring all the new investment, high-speed rail, but it has now been abandoned. we would still be looking at about another £50 on every We have been ill served by the debate so far—that ticket for anyone who used that airport. What a blow to goes not just for my constituents, but for the general business that would be! public. Because Heathrow has been making the weather As to its operational viability, National Grid said on this issue and because the other airports in the that south-east have been so far behind the curve, it has been “the proposals being put forward for a Thames Hub Airport on left to organisations such as HACAN—the Heathrow the Grain peninsula are incompatible with the energy infrastructure”. Association for the Control of Aircraft Noise, led by The fog is three times what it is at Heathrow and the risk John Stewart—and community groups to provide the of bird strikes is twelve times as high. The delivery risks rationale and the arguments, which they have done are absolutely enormous. admirably. 541 Aviation Strategy24 OCTOBER 2013 Aviation Strategy 542

We are now faced with the prospect of two options. I Heathrow has only 16 night flights at the moment, but do not have the time to go into this, but I am pleased with an extra runway, that number would increase that other colleagues have talked about the horrendous massively. I will certainly continue to go on marches effects that Heathrow expansion would have, and not and to work with hon. Members across the House to just on noise—the fact that 25% of those in the EU who ensure that a third runway does not become a reality. are bothered by serious noise nuisance are from around We need to step back and look at the interests of the Heathrow should rule out expansion alone. However, nation over the next 50 to 100 years, then make this there is also the congestion and pollution, as well health decision in a cool, calm and collected fashion without and safety issues. Expansion is therefore simply unthinkable, focusing on short-term, sticking-plaster solutions. I hope but so is an estuary airport. Not only would an estuary that, when the Davies commission reports, it will have airport be in the wrong place—hon. Members should taken a long-term, mature look at the matter. I believe see what the chambers of commerce have said about the that an offshore airport would solve all the problems, prospect of that much public money going into such a despite the short-term challenges involved in getting it white elephant; it is a ludicrous suggestion—but it built. would close Heathrow, as the Mayor of London, its chief cheerleader, says it would, or Heathrow would otherwise be reduced to the size of City airport. 4.41 pm That is not sustainable for either the west London or Mr Gordon Marsden (Blackpool South) (Lab): We the UK economy, so why are we so hung up on this idea have had an extremely good debate. I do not have time of a hub airport? In advocating expansion, I am not to dwell on all the contributions, but I shall simply say expert enough to say exactly how it would occur and that the Chair of the Select Committee, my hon. Friend where it would be possible in a city and a region that has the Member for Liverpool, Riverside (Mrs Ellman), has five airports, but Gatwick, which is now making some performed a singularly important task on behalf of us money, Stansted and Heathrow should all get together all in putting forward her views so strongly and eloquently. and look at that proposal. Failing that, our politicians The right hon. Member for Saffron Walden (Sir Alan from all parties should get together, show leadership Haselhurst) made an imaginative pitch for diversification. and put forward a proposal that can deliver short-term My hon. Friend the Member for Blackley and Broughton gains for public transport and free up the existing (Graham Stringer) made some thoughtful comments capacity and, in the longer term, deliver a network to about hub connectivity, which were echoed by many serve the great capital city, rather than going for an other hon. Members, and my hon. Friend the Member expansion of Heathrow. for Poplar and Limehouse (Jim Fitzpatrick) brought all his experience and distinguished service to his comments. 4.38 pm My hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) spoke with passion, as always, on Adam Afriyie (Windsor) (Con): We are debating aviation behalf of his constituents. strategy today, but a lot of the comments I have heard— particularly about the sticking-plaster solutions for I come to this new brief to listen and to learn, as well Heathrow and all sorts of other, complicated, detailed, as to speak, but I do have Blackpool airport just down short-term fixes—do not deal with the strategy we need the road from my office. It handles 250,000 passengers a for the nation. We used to be a great, island, global year, and 750,000 RAF staff trained there during world trading nation in the 1700 and 1800s, and we had a war two. Flights have been taking off from there since fantastic period even in the early 1900s. If we are 1909. As today’s debate has shown, the aviation sector talking about strategy, we should be talking about a has enormous strengths and strategic importance. It long-term vision for where we want our country to be, encompasses skills in manufacturing, in leisure and and having a new offshore airport is a very good idea tourism, in professional standards and in logistics. The for the long-term economic growth of our country. sector serves a huge variety of customers and passengers, A short runway at Heathrow would not do it, while balancing business and leisure. an extra runway at Gatwick would not deal with the I believe that the aviation sector has a major contribution hub issue. All those small fixes for the short term would to make, not least because we have BAE Systems just just lead us straight back to where we were: putting off down the road from Blackpool, supplying good jobs the long-term decision again, as my right hon. Friend and apprenticeships to my constituents. There are huge the Member for Saffron Walden (Sir Alan Haselhurst) opportunities for the sector to contribute to local economies, described. I very much welcome the Davies commission. and I know that Heathrow has done some really innovative I differ somewhat with the timetable for the reporting stuff with the schools and colleges in its area. The and the decisions, but it is right that someone is going to future brings great challenges, not least that of how to take a calm, long-term view of the situation. satisfy those under the planes as well as those on them, There have been a lot of scare stories saying that, if a and how to strengthen the sense of a community of new hub airport were to be built over a period of 20 or interest between them. 30 years, Heathrow would somehow cease to exist. We agree with the Government that the aviation However, we already have regional airports, and Heathrow sector needs to grow, but we believe that that should be could continue in that capacity and gradually evolve subject to concerns about sustainability criteria being over time. I must declare an interest, in that I live under met. The UK scores fifth in the International Air Transport the flight path in my Windsor constituency. The biggest Association connectivity index, and we must maintain challenge is to ensure that, with 480,000 air traffic and strengthen that position. The industry is vital to the movements a year, the number of flights does not UK economy. The aviation policy framework that was increase. A second concern relates to night flights. I was published earlier this year showed that aviation adds involved with the recent Civil Aviation Bill. Thankfully, some £18 billion to our gross domestic product, although 543 Aviation Strategy24 OCTOBER 2013 Aviation Strategy 544

[Mr Gordon Marsden] There is particular potential for boosting tourist economies in popular destinations about the UK, in the Airport Operators Association puts the figure at which regard the APF refers to the strategy of the nearly £50 billion. The Minister might like to think Department for Culture, Media and Sport. Transport about whether the significance of aviation jobs, the Ministers must not allow aviation to remain in a silo in supply chain and tourism ought to be included in that one branch of the Department or elsewhere. Engagement assessment. The Government’s role is to be an active is needed with other aspects of departmental responsibilities, and intelligent provider of connectivity for those expanding not least the rail network, and they need to be a force export businesses. for innovation and collaboration. I broadly agree with the Chair of the Select Committee Airports are key players in their communities and, as that expansion in the regions will not provide a magic the APF recognises, airports should be encouraged to bullet to deal with all our capacity problems and that strengthen these relationships with communities. To there are national infrastructure issues that urgently build and maximise such initiatives, we need to link rail need to be addressed. The question of whether to locate policy with airport policy. I did not agree when the in London and the south, or in the areas beyond, is not Government responded to the Select Committee by an either/or—we have to do both. Similarly, the question saying: of whether to opt for point to point or hub expansion is “The Government does not agree with the Committee’s view not an either/or—both are necessary. Addressing the that surface access to major airports in the south east is poor.” question of the hub, and the spokes that might come That shows a very complacent attitude, and we should from it, is critical to connectivity and consumer experience, be using the Davies gap to look actively at other ways of and we must remember that that cannot simply be expanding. It is crazy that current rail services to airports measured or satisfied by the number of shopping malls are not directly considered in the aviation policy framework, that might accompany the development. and that is why we support building the new western rail Howard Davies confirmed to the Airport Operators link to Heathrow. Association conference on Tuesday that any major response to hub capacity would not become operational until Mr Jenkin: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? 2023. In that case, there must be a particular and minute focus on short-term capacity solutions. As Davies himself Mr Marsden: I will not; I do not have the time. has said: That was also why I supported my right hon. Friend “A number of airports have proposed that there are ways in the Member for Tottenham (Mr Lammy) when he which you can make existing airports more appealing and provide expressed his concerns about Stansted. some additional headroom.” We will not prejudge the conclusions of the Davies I agree, and I also agree with the chief executive of commission, which has been tasked with producing AOA, who says: independent recommendations on the strategy. It must “To deliver the UK’s future air connectivity we need both be left to produce its initial report in December and vibrant point-to-point airports and sufficient world class hub subsequent recommendations, but we echo the calls of capacity”. the Select Committee to the effect that, given the protracted That view is echoed by the British Chambers of Commerce, timetable, the time available must be used to ensure that although it makes the point that that strategy should the research is comprehensive and robust. not focus only on the south-east, but “should also involve the strengthening of regional airports throughout Mr Jenkin: Will the hon. Gentleman give way on that the UK.” specific point? There are some splendid examples of such airports in Mr Marsden: No, I will not; I am trying to keep to my my region, quite apart from my airport at Blackpool. time. There is Manchester airport—we have heard wonderful illustrations of its importance—which has great strengths The Government must also address consumers’ ongoing in local connectivity. All the 10 councils of Greater concerns about air passenger duty.As we said in yesterday’s Manchester were involved with the exercise from the Opposition day debate, the Government need to undertake ’80s, and this is an £800 million airport city. Liverpool a real review of the effects of that tax. In straitened airport is increasingly widening travel options for huge times, we need to keep a clear line of sight over costs swathes of people across the north-west, Wales and and charges, ensuring that consumers are not at the beyond. Elsewhere, Birmingham has put forward to the centre of any resolution between airports and airlines airports commission, as part of its bid for a second that disbenefits them. We also have to make sure that runway, some innovative and interesting ideas on future new or improved public transport links remain affordable flight patterns and its future involvement in them. to consumers because otherwise unfair burdens will be imposed on them. To the extent that it is relevant to the area, I welcome the language of the aviation policy framework, which Of course, we have to deal with noise, which was sets out the Government’s objectives and principles to raised by several hon. Members, not least my hon. guide the making of plans and decisions at local and Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington. We will regional levels, but if we will the ends, we also have to continue to oppose any increase in night flights and to will the means, which means real localism on the ground listen to arguments for tighter restrictions. We will urge from government. We believe in active empowered the Government and industry to look further at noise government, and if we are to achieve these objectives, mitigation measures. we need local economic partnerships, local authorities These are difficult times and the decisions are and other sub-regional stakeholders to collaborate with difficult to make, but the strategy is not a choice between airports. economic growth, and social and community cohesion 545 Aviation Strategy24 OCTOBER 2013 Aviation Strategy 546 and contentment. Those factors have to be reconciled, Mr Jenkin: Given that we believe in democracy, openness and the Government will have to play a key part in that and transparency, would it not be much more democratic process. to allow the Davies commission to report before the general election so that the debate at the time of the 4.49 pm election can take place in the light of its findings? The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Mr Robert Goodwill): I welcome the opportunity to Mr Goodwill: The commission will publish its interim respond to what has been a timely and generally good- report before the end of the year, and the Government natured debate. I also welcome the hon. Member for will respond to it by the spring. There may be some Blackpool South (Mr Marsden) to his new post. He action that we can take at that stage, perhaps in respect represents Lancashire’s premier resort; I represent the of surface connectivity, but I think it is important for United Kingdom’s premier resort. the commission to have a chance to do its work properly, I thank the hon. Member for Liverpool, Riverside and that means giving it enough time. If we are going to (Mrs Ellman) for seeking the debate, the Backbench do this, let us do it right. Business Committee for arranging it, and Members on both sides of the House for taking part in it. The hon. I am pleased by the support for the commission’s Lady is the sole survivor of the Transport Committee work that Members have given today. The Government on which I served, and I remember my days there with welcome the publication of its discussion papers on great affection. She is continuing the assiduous work of issues such as connectivity, climate change and noise, her predecessor, Gwyneth Dunwoody, even if not in and we look forward to receiving its interim report by quite the same pugnacious style. the end of this year. That report will outline the scale of the additional capacity that is needed, shortlist the The Government are determined that the whole country places that the commission thinks can best provide that will continue to gain the economic benefits of a vibrant capacity, and make recommendations for the effective aviation sector. The sector employs some 120,000 people use of existing capacity in the short term. We have also directly, and many more indirectly. Today’s debate stems asked the commission to consider the findings of the from the Transport Committee’s report on aviation report on our trial of operational freedoms at Heathrow, strategy. As part of the Committee’s investigation, my so that, too, will be covered in the interim report. right hon. Friend the Secretary of State gave evidence before it on 11 February this year, and the Government The Government look forward to the interim report, responded to the report in July. and we will give it full consideration, but we shall not be Let me update the House on some significant aviation in a position to comment on the scope or content of our policies before dealing with a number of points that response—which, as I have said, we intend to issue in were raised during the debate. We appear to be in broad the spring—until the report’s publication at the end of agreement about the importance of maintaining the 2013. I hope that the hon. Members for Liverpool, United Kingdom’s position as a leading global aviation Riverside and for Poplar and Limehouse (Jim Fitzpatrick) hub for the UK economy. Freight volume and terminal will understand the need for the work to be done passenger numbers were higher in 2012 than in the thoroughly, and the time that that will take. previous year. We have the third largest aviation network I am pleased to be able to tell my right hon. Friend in the world, after the United States and China. The five the Member for Saffron Walden (Sir Alan Haselhurst) airports serving London offer direct services at least that I will visit Stansted soon, so I will learn some of the weekly to more than 360 destinations worldwide, which issues there first hand. He said there has never been a is more than Paris, Frankfurt or Amsterdam. We are strategy, but I hope that the Davies commission addresses determined to take the necessary action to maintain the that failing. UK’s position as Europe’s most important aviation hub. The hon. Member for Blackley and Broughton (Graham Aviation capacity is important for the economic growth Stringer) has considerable experience of this subject of the UK, and that vital issue requires long-term through Manchester Airports Group, and I hope he thinking and consensus-building. The UK continues to welcomes the fact that I spent an Industry and Parliament have excellent aviation connectivity, both on a point-to-point Trust year with MAG, when I learned a lot about the basis and through the London hub, but our major operations of airports. He mentioned the vexed issue of airports face a capacity and connectivity challenge in APD, which the House had a good opportunity to the medium and longer term. Heathrow is operating to discuss yesterday. Although I am new to the job, I am capacity today, Gatwick is expected to be full in the not so wet behind the ears that I would encroach on the 2020s, and Stansted, which currently has considerable Treasury’s territory, but I would make the point that spare capacity, is expected to be full by the early 2030s. there are other barriers to visitors coming to the UK, The Government accept that aviation capacity, especially including the issue of visas for people from China, so I in the south-east, has been a controversial and difficult was pleased that my right hon. Friend the Chancellor issue for many years. The only way in which we can end addressed that on his recent visit there. the years of indecision and inaction is by taking the approach that we have adopted, which I hope establishes cross-party support and political consensus. That was Mr MacNeil: I would hope that the Department for an important factor in our decision to create the airports Transport would have a fairly robust view on this and commission and to make it independent of the Government. that it would communicate its thoughts to the Treasury Led by Sir Howard Davies, the commission is examining if it felt that APD was limiting the numbers of passengers, options, and it will make recommendations that will although we know it is—by about 2.1 million per annum maintain the UK’s status as a leading global aviation in Scotland. Surely the Department for Transport will hub in the long term. not sit back and let the Treasury take the lead. 547 Aviation Strategy24 OCTOBER 2013 Aviation Strategy 548

Mr Goodwill: The Government are determined to in a Government Department watching his back. I stay on track with our deficit reduction plans, and it is assure the hon. Gentleman that I come to this with an important that the aviation sector continues to play its open mind. Indeed, when the Secretary of State appointed part. A number of Members in the House should me he said, “You’ll be just the person for aviation as shoulder some of the blame for the deficit that we are you’re 250 miles away from the south-east of England.” having to reduce. Looking outside London, the Government’s aviation On CAA costs, I assure the hon. Member for Blackley policy framework, which was published earlier this year, and Broughton that I intend to have regular meetings supports the growth of regional airports, and we recognise with its chair, Dame Deirdre Hutton. Indeed, one such the importance of regional air connectivity to London meeting is already in my diary. Of course, under the in supporting regional economies and contributing to Civil Aviation Act 2012, there is a requirement on the national cohesion. In fact, domestic airport connectivity CAA to consult on charges. across the UK increased in 2012. We now have a flight from Leeds Bradford to Heathrow, which is becoming a The right hon. Member for Greenwich and Woolwich boon to the Yorkshire economy. (Mr Raynsford) raised the issue of noise and air quality, as did the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington Aviation is a challenging topic. Successive Governments (John McDonnell), whose views on this matter are well have struggled with how best to continue to gain the known. The right hon. Gentleman referred to recent economic benefits it brings while restraining its impact research by Imperial college and others about heart on local people. I hope that the House agrees that the attacks and strokes in areas affected by aircraft noise. Government have established the right foundations to We need to do further work on that because other move forward, gain consensus and secure the benefits factors may also be in play. aviation brings for the nation. My hon. Friend the Member for Harwich and North 4.58 pm Essex (Mr Jenkin) made the case for London to be Mrs Ellman: I thank all Members who have participated better connected, so I look forward to his support next in this very well-attended Backbench Business Committee week as we push forward with plans for the High Speed debate. There is overwhelming support for additional 2 rail network, which will connect London with the hub capacity to support our economy. I hope that hon. north of England so effectively. The hon. Member for Members’ contributions will assist the Davies commission Poplar and Limehouse raised concerns about some of to come to the correct conclusion. This issue will not go the initial press coverage following my appointment. away; it is about the future of our country. May I assure him that he should not read too much into the meeting I had with the Scarborough Greenpeace Question put and agreed to. people? Indeed, I was relieved that the coverage was not Resolved, portrayed as the Chancellor having another of his chums That this House has considered aviation strategy. 549 24 OCTOBER 2013 Share Capital (Businesses) 550

Share Capital (Businesses) I have to tell the Minister that, sadly, all is not well in the small-cap market in the UK. Between 2009 and Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House 2012, there was de-listing of 722 companies on the do now adjourn.—(Mr Gyimah.) AIM. Indeed, the amount raised on the AIM in 2012 was barely 17% of the £16 billion raised on that market in 2007. Let me quote one small paragraph from the 4.59 pm Drury report. It states: Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con): I “For us the small-cap sector is ‘Middle England’: the millions am grateful to Mr Speaker for giving me the chance to of people trying to run and grow their businesses against all the raise the important issue of how we can raise share odds. The sector is friendless, ignored by the banks, hounded capital for our nation’s businesses. All hon. Members by officialdom, bullied by bigger brothers and misunderstood by some politicians.” will be well aware that we do not have to spend long in either Treasury questions or business questions before I hope to rectify some of that misunderstanding today. Members from all parts of the House get up to talk Many people are not even aware of all the markets about the difficulties that businesses have in gaining that enable smaller businesses to raise funds. In addition access to finance. Every time that has happened over to the AIM, we have the ISDX—the ICAP Securities & the past couple of years when I have been in this Derivatives Exchange—formerly known as PLUS markets. Chamber the complaint raised by Members has been Currently, 112 companies are listed on it. That story is that the banks are not lending. Indeed, we still have a not happy either, I am afraid—there have been 35 de- partially broken banking system, which is why the banks listings from the ISDX since the ICAP relaunched the are not able to lend in the way that British business, exchange in October last year, but only eight additions. large and small, would ideally like them to do. There is also the GXG, on which 106 companies Of course, loan finance is only one way in which are listed; again, that could be larger. At the moment, businesses of all sizes—although I am thinking particularly 859 UK companies are listed on the AIM, whereas about small and start-up, fast-growing businesses— can in 2007, before the great recession, there were 1,347. raise the capital they need. The other way is through Companies de-list for a number of reasons, one being equity or share capital. I find it odd that that type of the cost of being on a market; I will talk about that and capital—that way of helping businesses to start up, regulatory issues, which we need to consider, in a moment. grow and expand—is a subject so rarely raised in this Today I was given some stunning figures—they really House, and I wish to remedy that this afternoon. So I jumped out at me—by the London stock exchange. In stand here on behalf of the nation’s 4.5 million smaller the United States of America, bank lending as a percentage businesses—the small and medium-sized enterprises that of external, long-term funding, is 19%—that is, under a do so much to power our economy and grow the larger fifth. In the European Union, however, the figure is businesses of tomorrow—and on behalf of the men 81%, or more than four fifths. Those figures are stunningly and women who work in the “small- cap” market sector divergent. If the Minister and his officials take back of the City of London, who try to raise that much-needed only one set of figures from this debate, I ask them to and incredibly important share capital, or equity finance, consider why there is such a different financing model for our nation’s businesses. in the US and why so much more share capital and I wish to pay tribute to some of the people who work long-term investment are put into businesses there than in that sector in the City and who took time out, at no here in the European Union. remuneration to themselves, to write the Drury report. The European Commission green paper on the long-term They are: Tony Drury, Roger Hardman, David Scott, financing of the European economy has been published Michael MacDougall, Simon Webber, Robin Stevens, and the Government will respond to it. It has some Brian Hibbert CBE, Charity Walmsley, Laura Keeling, sensible suggestions. The London stock exchange has Teresa Quinlan and Paul Quade. I had the pleasure of urged a “think small first” approach and asked the working with them and helping them. Indeed, I took Commission particularly to assess the regulatory impacts them all to meet the previous Financial Secretary to the on access to capital for smaller companies, the costs of Treasury, so that they could outline what was in their capital and the fiscal bias against equity, which I shall report. come to. This is not a new issue. The Macmillan committee For the sake of completeness, I should say that there report of 1931 identified what became known as the are three other, smaller equity markets: Sharemark, “funding gap”as far as British businesses were concerned. AltCapX and BritDAQ. Our Government, in March 2012, commissioned the Breedon taskforce to write a report, “Boosting Finance Clearly, there is a funding gap for British industry Options for Business”, examining these very issues. In and many businesses. Banks are increasingly nervous of our relatively recent history, we have been quite successful lending to businesses that do not have strong balance in getting stock markets, large and small, to raise equity sheets. I am not setting up equity capital against loan capital for small and growing businesses. Between 1998 finance; if a business has a strong balance sheet and a and 2008, the Alternative Investment Market—AIM—and decent amount of share or equity capital, it is more the PLUS market provided many hundreds of UK attractive for a bank to lend to. The two issues go companies with early-stage equity finance. It is the together. belief of the Drury report that if the small-cap sector As we know from recent research from smallbusiness. was rejuvenated in the way it suggests, a further co.uk, one in six small businesses has had to resort to a 200,000 people could be found work as the businesses payday loan and just one in 10 was able to secure a loan were helped to grow in the way that those behind the from its bank in the first year of trading. The Minister’s report believe they can. Department, the Department for Business, Innovation 551 Share Capital (Businesses)24 OCTOBER 2013 Share Capital (Businesses) 552

[Andrew Selous] control. Many businesses think that if they have an outside shareholder they lose control of their business, and Skills, has said that it estimates the current funding but they do not; if they still own 51% of the equity, they gap facing British industry up to 2017 at anywhere retain control. Yes, their standards of corporate governance between £84 billion and £191 billion, of which between may need to improve a bit, and that is generally a good £26 billion and £59 billion relates to smaller businesses. thing, but they retain control. That is often not understood, Those are huge figures. It is clear why we need to and changing that would further open up the possibility consider how share capital can help bridge some of that of raising share capital. gap. Many smaller businesses are simply unaware of even the possibility of raising share capital and how It is important to give praise where praise is due. I they would go about doing it. I shall come to that in a was delighted when stamp duty was removed from AIM second. shares earlier this year; indeed, I was one of the people who lobbied very hard for that. AIM shares can now be It is worth putting on the record that the tax treatments included in individual savings accounts. It is not generally of share capital and debt are very different. Debt interest understood that if someone is lucky enough to have an payments are tax deductible, whereas share capital is estate that might breach the inheritance tax threshold, taxed four times—on purchase, for stamp duty; when any money they have in AIM shares is not counted profits are declared, through corporation tax; when towards that threshold. That is another good thing that profits are paid out, through income tax on dividends; will encourage vitally needed investment in this important and when shares are finally sold, through capital gains and growing sector of the economy. Indeed, I understand tax. that the Share Centre reported an increase of over 106% Credit where credit is due—the Government have in AIM stock purchases on the day that the policy was reduced stamp duty on AIM shares, which is excellent, introduced. and we are lowering corporation tax. The Government There are some tremendous success stories; I would have already helped in some areas. However, the Minister not want the Minister to think everything was bad. Let will see that there is a significant difference between the me give him an example. Abcam plc is a business tax treatments of share finance and loan finance. involved in cancer research that sells antibodies to The regulatory costs of raising share capital are researchers. It listed on the AIM in 2005 with a £58 million significant, and the Government need to look at that flotation. By the summer of 2012, it had grown to a issue very closely. I am delighted that we have here not market capitalisation of £770 million. Its revenue rose only this Minister, who is an excellent Minister for from £12 million to about £100 million, and the number whom I have the very highest respect, but a BIS Minister. of staff grew from 78 to 600. The company has significantly I sometimes wonder who in Government is looking at expanded, opening up offices abroad, and it is now this issue, not just from the investor’s point of view in looking to join the main stock market. That is a huge making sure that every box is ticked as regards regulation, success story, and we want many other businesses to do but in being the champion for these 4.5 million small the same. businesses as regards their need to raise share capital. I would love the Minister, as well as dealing with the very I mentioned the European Commission. I was many important tasks he has to deal with, to be that encouraged to see that posted on its website on 18 October, champion. I am throwing down the gauntlet to him and just six days ago, was information about its hoping that he will take up that challenge as part of his “Competitiveness of enterprises and SMEs” programme, many important responsibilities. known as COSME. Its remit includes improving SMEs’ access to capital markets, so that is good. Financial Conduct Authority costs are high in this regard. One broker who deals in the small-cap market The London stock exchange is making representations in the City, in a relatively small firm, estimated that the to the European Union and has asked the Government regulatory costs are about £10,000 per member of staff. to do so as well. On the markets in financial instruments A company that has large volumes of business can cope directive II, it is pressing for the creation of an “SME with that, but for one with relatively small volumes of growth market” classification in order to, again, make business the whole thing will border on being unviable. it easier, less expensive, quicker and less of a burden for Yesterday morning, at a breakfast meeting, I put that our vital small and growing companies to raise the point to Martin Wheatley, the chief executive of the capital they need. It also wants to ensure that the FCA. He acknowledged that the costs of raising share implementation of the solvency II directive does not capital for smaller businesses are high and that regulation divert capital from equities, and it wants the Government is onerous. He did not disagree with me, but I am not to engage with the Commission’s green paper—I know sure that we quite worked out what we can do about it. they will—on long-term loan financing. I am convinced that we need to have a proper campaign In conclusion, I think I am remedying this House’s of education for businesses up and down the country failure to highlight the significance of share capital to about the advantages of raising share capital rather small, fast-growing businesses in particular. I repeat my than just going to a bank for finance. I would like request to the Minister to be, among others, a champion chambers of commerce, the Federation of Small Businesses, for the needs of businesses large and small up and down the Institute of Directors, the CBI, accountants, lawyers the country to raise equity finance and to help them get and other business advisers to work together in our the funding they need so that they can grow, prosper communities explaining to businesses how they can and create the jobs that our constituents need to help raise share capital if they are having difficulty raising power our economy forward and pay off our deficit so loan finance. They could explain that having outside that we can have a secure and prosperous future as a shareholders in a company does not mean that it loses nation. 553 Share Capital (Businesses)24 OCTOBER 2013 Share Capital (Businesses) 554

5.16 pm for investing in small and fast-growing companies for those who pay UK income tax. The encouragement of The Minister for Skills and Enterprise (Matthew equity finance, in whatever form, through tax relief is Hancock): It is a great pleasure to respond to this an important part of our programme to solve the debate, because I agree with the central thrust that problems that my hon. Friend highlighted. motivated my hon. Friend the Member for South West Bedfordshire (Andrew Selous) to call it, namely the Tax treatment plus regulatory costs, whether in the importance of equity finance, especially for small and public or private sphere, make up the gap between the medium-sized businesses, and the fact that it is not equity that an investor can put in and the investment discussed as often as it should be in this House. that a small business receives. I hope that drilling down on both will bring more liquidity and finance where It is telling, as my hon. Friend has pointed out, that they are needed, which is in growing companies that can during Treasury and Business, Innovation and Skills make good use of them. questions we tend to get more questions on access to finance than on any other subject. There is some evidence I was struck by the figures that my hon. Friend set that access to finance is improving, although it is still out. In the United States, 19% of this kind of finance not in a strong position. Thanks to the tough choices we comes from the banks, compared with 81% in Europe. have made since 2010, I think it is widely recognised The UK is one of the more friendly destinations in the that the economy is, broadly speaking, on the mend. It EU for non-bank finance, but the figures are striking. has not fully recovered by any means, but it is on the When I was in the United States last week, I was struck way back. That is reflected in the number of businesses, by the powerful fact that more venture capital is available not only in my hon. Friend’s constituency, where businesses in the skyscraper in which the British consulate in are creating jobs, but across the country. Companies Boston is housed than is available across the whole of House records show that there were 480,000 new Europe. That shows the difference between the two incorporations in 2012-13, which is the highest figure continents not only in the amount of finance that is on record. If I may correct one of my hon. Friend’s available, but in the number of people who have started figures—I do so as gently as possible—yesterday’s figures and grown a business and are now reinvesting. The show that the number of SMEs in this country is now United States, whether on the east coast or the west, is a 4.8 million, not 4.5 million. I hope he is not too disappointed generation ahead of us. Part of our job is to catch up as by that minor correction. fast as we can. That challenge is real; the good news is that the opportunity that it presents is great. I accept my hon. Friend’s challenge to be, along with My hon. Friend spoke eloquently about the various the BIS team, a champion of smaller businesses in their small exchanges. I urge him to look also at peer-to-peer quest to access finance. Our programme is vital. The finance, whether equity or loan, because that is a small Breedon report made a series of recommendations, but growing part of the market that companies can many of which have been acted on, including the look to when trying to access finance. introduction of the business bank, which my right hon. Friend the Business Secretary announced in September. As well as bringing tax relief and bearing down on regulatory costs, the Government make direct interventions. We know that it has been much harder for businesses In the business angel sector, the Angel CoFund makes to access finance since the crisis. One of the lessons of equity investments of between £100,000 and £1 million the crisis was that the economy had become too reliant in SMEs. It does that alongside syndicates of business on one source of finance, namely bank finance from the angels. It encourages greater levels of angel investment four big banks. The business bank will help to solve that and syndication, and provides companies with experience problem, but it is by no means the only solution, and expertise alongside the capital. I echo my hon. because we need to increase the supply and diversity of Friend’s remarks that when finance comes into a small finance available, which brings me to the subject of business, it brings not only pure capital, but better equity finance. governance and advice from people who have skin in I will take on board all of the points my hon. Friend the game and who therefore take care in the advice that has made and if I miss any out I will read Hansard and they deliver. make sure they are acted on. I would stress that when In the Budget this year, we announced that another talking about equity finance, we need to be cognisant of £50 million would go to the Angel CoFund, doubling the importance of the wider availability of both private its size. I hope that it will help to strengthen the whole equity finance and public equity finance. Although it is business angels sector, because it invests only when difficult to measure with precision, in recent times, the appropriate due diligence has been undertaken and a amount of private equity finance, whether through deal is structured properly. The UK Business Angel angel investing, venture capital investing or bigger private Institute, founded by the UK Business Angels Association equity financing, has been greater than the amount of and AngelNews, is creating standards of professionalism public equity finance. Both are important. It is important in UK angel investing, which by its nature often involves to have diverse forms of finance, not only so that if one investing early in quite high-risk companies. If we can form struggles, others can take up the slack, but because have more quality in training courses for private investors, different forms of finance are right for different companies. such as those that the UK Business Angels Association It is true that we have extended tax relief, not only by is delivering, that will strengthen investing skills in that cutting corporation tax, removing stamp duty on AIM important area of the market. shares and allowing individual savings accounts to invest My hon. Friend made the point that equity is taxed in AIM shares, which is a tax relief in a sense, but four times whereas bank debt is tax-deductible. A number through the extension of the enterprise investment scheme of non-tax factors have an impact on whether a business and the introduction of the seed enterprise investment decides to use debt over equity financing, so tax is not scheme, both of which are extremely popular schemes the only issue. Different companies look to different 555 Share Capital (Businesses)24 OCTOBER 2013 Share Capital (Businesses) 556

[Matthew Hancock] a number of Budgets, there has also been an increase in the lifetime limit for entrepreneurs’ relief to £10 million, forms of finance, and debt can be quicker to obtain and so shares acquired from the enterprise management less complicated to use. Of course, there is the also the incentive can qualify for a lower capital gains tax rate. question of the amount of ownership that is given up in There has been action on stamp duty, capital gains tax return for equity financing. and corporation tax, three of the four taxes that my I turn to deductions for interest as a business expense. hon. Friend mentioned as part of the barrier. The To protect the UK Exchequer, a number of rules limit direction of travel is clear, and his argument is strong. how much interest a company can deduct from its tax The value of small businesses to our economy makes liability. My hon. Friend made the point that dividends them absolutely vital, and helping small businesses create are paid out of a company’s tax profits. However, they jobs and take people on has been one reason why we are exempt from tax in the hands of the company have had such strong growth in the number of people receiving them. In the case of an individual shareholder employed in the private sector in the past few years. in the income tax system, the combination of dividend tax credit and the lower rates of tax for dividends Andrew Selous: I am heartened by what the Minister ensures that dividends are taxed at broadly the same has said and by the tone and general thrust of his reply. level as other forms of income, even after corporation Will he reflect briefly on my points about the cost of tax is taken into account. It is important to take into regulation? Might he perhaps meet Martin Wheatley account not just the number of different taxes that of the Financial Conduct Authority, who admitted to apply to a piece of income but the rates of them, so that me yesterday morning that the costs of raising capital we can work out the relative rate on each form of are high? With his business hat on, representing 4.8 million finance. Having said that, it is clear that the Government businesses, will he consider whether there is any way to are moving in the direction that he wants, for instance lower the costs of raising capital through regulation, through abolishing stamp duty on AIM shares and while keeping investors safe? other growth markets, making investments eligible for ISAs and so on. Matthew Hancock: My hon. Friend will be delighted I wish to mention one other area of tax, which is the to know that I am already arranging a meeting with entrepreneurs’ relief. That is a valuable incentive and Martin Wheatley to make the arguments that he has reflects the fact that entrepreneurs take risks and are eloquently made today and broader arguments about often the beating heart of growing businesses, which ensuring that we can get good finance into our small should be recognised in the tax system. We have increased and growing businesses. the amount of relief that can be used and allowed it to Question put and agreed to. be used in more situations, so that more businesses and entrepreneurs can benefit from the 10% capital gains 5.29 pm tax rate rather than the normal 28% or 18% rates. Over House adjourned. 147WH 24 OCTOBER 2013 Planning and Housing Supply 148WH

On the face of it, reaffirming councils’ right to Westminster Hall re-designate the status of their land could be seen as promoting localism. However, the fact is that Government Thursday 24 October 2013 pressure to create high housing numbers is forcing such re-designations, which flies in the face of localism and contradicts the localism policy. The Government’s policies [MR DAI HAVARD in the Chair] on the green belt and the wider countryside are confusing and contradictory; clearing up that confusion is one of BACKBENCH BUSINESS the purposes of this debate. The Government’s insistence on high housing numbers is threatening the green belt, Planning and Housing Supply which leads me to question why the Government believe that we need so many houses in the first place. I wish to Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting consider the question of housing projections. be now adjourned.—(John Penrose.) I recognise and claim everyone’s right to a decent 1.30 pm place to live. My job immediately before I was elected to Parliament involved working with homeless women in Mr Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury) (Con): I thank London. My responsibility was to raise money to build the Backbench Business Committee for granting this a hostel and day centre for them, to enable them to take debate, which has been supported by a large number of the first steps back to normality. I learned that in concerned Members. In particular, I thank my right almost all cases, homelessness is caused not by a property hon. Friend the Member for Arundel and South Downs shortage but by other factors such as finances, family (Nick Herbert) and the hon. Member for St Albans breakdown, drug or alcohol abuse, unemployment, refugee (Mrs Main) for sponsoring it along with me. There is status or other social factors. It is not that there are not concern among hon. Members and local planning enough houses. authorities about apparent confusion in the Government’s The Government’s own figures seem to confirm that planning policies. I requested this debate because I want there is no shortage of houses. In an answer to a recent to consider planning, the countryside and housing parliamentary question that I tabled, the Government projections, as well as related issues, such as the informed me that at the last count, there were 709,426 Government’s professed preference for localism, as these empty properties in England. Add to that the number matters are all interconnected. of houses with planning permission that are not yet Protecting the countryside was one of my main built and the figure for available properties in England motivations for entering Parliament in the first place. comes close to 1 million. As I represent the constituency of Tewkesbury, I am more sensitive than most to the need to avoid developing Of course, there are in fact shortages of two kinds of on or near flood risk areas. The terrible 2007 floods in housing: affordable homes, which are scarce in the Tewkesbury will never be forgotten by anyone who lived village where I live, and privately rented properties, through them. I spend a lot of time trying to attract partly because it is hard and often undesirable to be a businesses, visitors and people in general to Tewkesbury, landlord. There are shortages in those two sectors for so I believe that a balance can be struck between reasons other than a shortage of houses as such. For allowing appropriate development and protecting our example, it is getting on for 2 o’clock, yet any one of us green belt, green fields and important open spaces, but I could go out into London or anywhere else and find am not sure that we are striking that balance at the houses to buy this afternoon. I question the Government’s moment. assertion that so many houses need to be built that local authorities must re-designate green-belt land in order to What do I mean by confusion in policy? The Government meet the Government’s arbitrary and undefined housing have said frequently, for example, that their policy is targets. to preserve green-belt land, yet my local planning authorities—my constituency covers three—are telling Tewkesbury is an example of what I mean. There is me that the Government are pressuring them to provide no housing shortage in my area. In fact, there is planning for so many houses in their local plans or joint core permission for houses that have not yet been built, as strategies that it will inevitably compromise the green well as empty properties. In the past 20 years, 7,536 houses belt, green fields and flood risk areas. have been completed in the borough of Tewkesbury, yet the Cambridge university econometric assessment, which In a ministerial statement dated 6 September 2012, is used by local councils and presumably approved of the Government said: by the Government, suggests that 10,900 houses will “The green belt is an important protection against urban be needed in the borough over the next 20 years—or, to sprawl, providing a ‘green lung’ around towns and cities. The be strictly accurate, over the next 18 years, as two years coalition agreement commits the Government to safeguarding green belt and other environmental designations”. of the plan period have already passed. Why has Tewkesbury’s housing need for the next 20 years been That seems clear enough. However, the same statement assessed as 45% higher than for the last 20 years? It goes on to say: needs explaining. “As has always been the case, councils can review local designations to promote growth. We encourage councils to use the flexibilities It gets worse. Tewkesbury borough is involved in set out in the national planning policy framework to tailor the drawing up a joint core strategy with Cheltenham and extent of green belt land in their areas to reflect local Gloucester. The JCS allocation for Tewkesbury borough circumstances.”—[Official Report, 6 September 2012; Vol. 549, for the next 20 years is not the 10,900 I refer to, high c. 33-34WS.] though that is, but 18,800, which is 150% higher than That is less clear. Indeed, it is confusing, perhaps even for the last 20 years. Why? Partly because it is deemed contradictory. that Cheltenham and Gloucester cannot find land for 149WH Planning and Housing Supply24 OCTOBER 2013 Planning and Housing Supply 150WH

[Mr Laurence Robertson] Mr Robertson: The authorities are involved in the joint core strategy, which covers three councils, but their housing growth needs, so the houses will be dumped there are six councils in the county, and others outside in Tewkesbury borough, potentially causing housing the county overlap with them, or are contiguous. Perhaps stock in Tewkesbury to increase by 54% over the next there has not been enough of an attempt to ensure that 20 years and causing the councils to build on green-belt all councils join in, and there has been obstinacy on the land and in other undesirable areas. part of some of those involved in the joint core strategy, That raises the question of the duty to co-operate. but whatever the case, it is a really strange situation to Gloucestershire has six council areas, not just three, and have three councils getting together while others each the duty to co-operate goes beyond county boundaries. have their own plans. The whole system is very confusing Why, then, will the houses that Cheltenham and Gloucester and difficult. As for Tewkesbury’s allocation, even if we are deemed to need but cannot accommodate end up accept the Cambridge assessment of 10,900 homes, we being built on green-belt land in Tewkesbury? That will not have that figure; we propose to have 18,800, cannot be fair, and it demonstrates the paucity of the even though we built only 7,500 in the previous 20 years. current planning guidance, which says that plans will be The situation is very confused. considered unsound if the councils concerned have not I have mentioned that there are proposals to build on co-operated. However, it is the councils that are not designated green-belt sites. If they are built on, it will involved in the plan, as well as those that are, that need bring the coalescence of Cheltenham and Gloucester to co-operate. How does that work? nearer, but it was precisely to avoid that that the land in I reiterate that if it were not for the Government’s question was designated green belt in the first place, in apparent pressure on local authorities to plan for a line with the policy stated in the written ministerial greater number of houses, the problem would not arise. statement that I read out. Surely that is not what this Such a top-down approach is arbitrary and undefined. I Conservative-led Government intend to happen? say so because that is basically what the Government As I have mentioned the Conservative party, may I indicated to me in reply to a parliamentary question. In say in the privacy of this room that our policies on a written answer dated 9 July, the Minister told me: planning are losing us many votes in many areas? I am “While there is no standard methodology, councils’ assessments sure that the leaders of my party do not intend that to should be demonstrably objective.”—[Official Report, 9 July 2013; happen. In some ways, I feel that the Government Vol. 568, c. 191W.] believe that recovery and growth in the economy can be What exactly does that mean? If there is no standard kick-started by encouraging more house building. Perhaps methodology for assessing future housing needs, how that is why the Government are requiring such high can Government assessments be right and the local numbers, rather than following assessments based on authority’s previous housing figures wrong? That is experience and fact. another question that I want answered today. Mrs Anne Main (St Albans) (Con): I will be brief, That brings us to the issue of localism. In my view, because so many hon. Members want to speak. There the Government were right to scrap the regional spatial are huge numbers of readily accessible plans in the strategies. It was surely wrong for unelected, anonymous system that no one is building for, so just granting more people to determine how many houses an area should plans will not kick-start the economy; it will just provide build and where they should build them. It was therefore more land-banking for developers. with great anticipation that I and many others looked forward to the new housing and planning strategy—only, so far, to be disappointed. Mr Robertson: I entirely agree. I do not believe that it is for the Government to engineer a recovery in such a Local plans have always had to be sound, and developers way. Surely the market will determine in which areas have always had the right to appeal against decisions there will or will not be growth, so why not leave local against them locally; there has also always been a councils to determine how many houses they need over presumption in favour of sustainable development. any given period and to make their plans accordingly? However, we now seem to have gone beyond that, and The Minister may reply that that is indeed happening, to be setting the bar far too high for local planning but it is not. The three council areas I cover have all told authorities, and that causes them to contradict another me that they have to make plans for a high number of area of Government policy, which is the need to protect houses, because the Government will reject plans as the green belt. unsound if they do not plan for such large numbers. If As I have said, in my area, Tewkesbury borough will, that is wrong, I want the Minister to say so. I will then if the JCS is adopted, have to increase its housing stock go back to those councils and tell them that their view is by about 54% over the next 20 years. That massive wrong. I do not, however, believe that that is the case. increase will mean that the council has to grant permission There is certainly a feeling that developers’ ad hoc for developers to build thousands of houses on land applications are granted too freely on appeal by the that is currently designated green belt. Such sites have Secretary of State. I have examples of that in my area. already been identified. Appeals have been granted that will allow the building of many houses at Bishop’s Cleeve and Winchcombe, Sir Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD): I understand the against the wishes of local people. On the face of it, point that the hon. Gentleman is making, but is it that those appeals were allowed because the council has Tewkesbury borough council is not engaging in a been deemed to have an insufficient five-year land supply. conversation with neighbouring authorities, or do those What is that assessment based on? Is it based on the authorities want to foist some of their development on number of houses built in the past, on some arbitrary Tewkesbury, or on its borders? and undefined calculation, or on figures in the regional 151WH Planning and Housing Supply24 OCTOBER 2013 Planning and Housing Supply 152WH spatial strategy? The strategy for the south-west was Like the hon. Member for Tewkesbury, I still find never signed off, and that whole policy has been scrapped that there is a misconception about the nature of the in any case. Once again, this practice flies in the face of green belt, what planning in the green belt is and what the localism concept that the Government are promoting. “very special circumstances” means. We have a national Many hon. Members wish to speak, so I will summarise planning policy framework in place. In old money, my main concerns. The Government’s policy on the which is what I am used to, it was called planning policy green belt is confused and contradictory, and we need guidance. There were lists of criteria of what could and clarification today. Exactly how do the Government could not be built on the green belt. Either way, whether assess how many houses will be needed in the future? we use the old money or the new framework, the green Why are they following the predict-provide approach? belt should be protected, and it is not. Why are estimates for future housing need so high, and In Walsall South, we fought against development on why are they so much higher than what was needed for the site of the Three Crowns pub. Against the planning the last 20 years? As a slight aside, much of the population officer’s advice, permission was granted for 14 flats with growth in the past 20 years has been caused by immigration. three detached houses on the green belt. The development Given that the Government are intent on reducing net was clearly out of character for the area. Since then, immigration and claim to have done so already, how nothing has happened, except for the development of a can housing need be predicted to increase? Why is the car wash. No building work has taken place. The only localism agenda being ignored? Why is pressure being sign of creativity is graffiti on the building. Land and put on local councils, causing them to build on green-belt building have lain empty and unused for three years. land? All those questions are being asked in the council As we are debating this matter today, a decision will areas that I represent and, most importantly, by the be made about the disused site of the Three Crowns constituents I represent, and they would all like answers. school. It is green-belt land that was given to the community, so it is council land. Permission will be given—or perhaps Several hon. Members rose— not—for eight detached houses. Such development is not required in the area. Not only was the consultation Mr Dai Havard (in the Chair): Order. I thank hon. carried out in the summer holidays when people were Members who have indicated that they wish to speak. I away, but the plans go beyond the footprint of the have a long list of 15 Members. Given the time constraints, building. I appeal to you to plan on having seven minutes each. There is need for housing in Darlaston, in another That will give everyone a fair chance to speak, and part of the constituency, and there is permission for allow for a proper response from the Minister, as Members 224 houses to be built on a former factory site. Permission will want him to give a comprehensive reply. was granted in 2007 and still the site remains derelict, without the sound of people coming in and out of their houses. The owners are a subsidiary of the Royal Bank 1.48 pm of Scotland. The residents in the area say that they want housing, a community space and a place for young Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab): It is a pleasure to people. The owners, however, want a retail development serve under your chairmanship, Mr Havard. I thank the on a site that is near the largest retail parks in the hon. Members for Tewkesbury (Mr Robertson) and for region; that is land banking at its worst. St Albans (Mrs Main), and the right hon. Member for Arundel and South Downs (Nick Herbert) for calling My third area of contention is permitted development the debate, which is very timely. and its extension. We have the extraordinary situation in my constituency where a phone mast has been placed I declare an interest as a member of the National in a high street. The council rightly refused permission, Trust—I am concerned about its announcement that but because it sent the rejection by second class post, the National Trust will allow fracking on its land, but the company was deemed not to have been given reliable perhaps it will consult its members—and in my previous and verifiable notice of the refusal. There was notice: life, I used to litigate on behalf of the Government on Vodafone were informed of the result by phone and the planning matters. refusal was on the council website. Residents will have I want to focus on three main areas that have affected to put up with this phone mast, as there has been no my constituency of Walsall South, which is an area of compromise from Vodafone. Indeed, Vodafone is planning mixed housing, with 11 farms—planning and the green to extend the height of the mast. There were many sites belt, land banking and permitted development. for the mast—I have been in discussions with Vodafone— The green belt was first proposed by Ebenezer Howard but the company insists that it wants to keep it on the in 1898, in his book “Garden Cities of Tomorrow”. high street. It is an eyesore, and because of a simple Hon. Members may not know that as well as writing mistake, my constituents are affected. Furthermore, that book, his day job was as a transcriber for Hansard with the new permitted development rights these phone in Parliament, so who knows what the transcribers get masts can be extended up to 20 metres and widened by up to in their spare time? In 1935, the metropolitan up to a third. The Phesay phone mast is on a pavement green belt was proposed by the Greater London regional on the high street. Once again, other interests carry planning committee, under the leadership of Herbert more weight than those of the people who have to live Morrison, one of whose relatives is in the other place. with the consequences of such decisions. In 1947, under the main Town and Country Planning In conclusion, with cuts to local authority budgets, Act, councils outside London became able to control those with the skills to make coherent planning decisions the use of, and to develop, undeveloped land. In 1955, are in short supply. Such people should be valued, as the green-belt policy was established, requiring local should the views of residents, with a tribunal attaching authorities to set out the green belt in their area. the appropriate weight to the views that are based on 153WH Planning and Housing Supply24 OCTOBER 2013 Planning and Housing Supply 154WH

[Valerie Vaz] the wrong area and that it will have an injurious effect on our part of the countryside. Even the inspector in his planning grounds, and not just on commercial interests. first and second reports rejected the site, observing that In that way, we will maintain the spirit of Octavia Hill “there is not a large, available work force local to the Radlett and Beatrix Potter and balance the need for housing site…The net result would inevitably be mass in-commuting, with a protection of the countryside preserved for future mostly by car, all of which is directly contrary to the Government’s generations. policy. The irony of this is almost painful. The Government promotes SRFIs in order to advance the cause of sustainability—“ Mr Dai Havard (in the Chair): I thank you for your and the developer is promoting the proposed site— time consideration. I now call the co-sponsor of the “in a wholly unsustainable location.” debate, Mrs Anne Main. If we are to take seriously the protection of the green belt, surely we should be looking at relinquishing parts 1.54 pm of it only when we absolutely have to and we should relinquish only those bits that would be least injurious Mrs Anne Main (St Albans) (Con): St Albans is to us. The inspector also said that there is no dispute ringed by green-belt land and green fields. We have that we enjoy very low levels of unemployment good schools, very low unemployment, good links to “and several of those who spoke at the inquiry advised me that London and a beautiful historic city.We are an aspirational employers in the area were already experiencing difficulties in living destination as well as an area in which people recruiting workers.” have firm roots. Once they are there, they do not usually He said that there would be no reason for that to change wish to move; they want to bring up their families there, should we have this large commercial development on and their families want to stay. our green belt. It is no wonder that developers have us in their sights. Members might be amazed to hear that only 15 miles We are in the proximity of London and house prices are north in a neighbouring authority—I know that we are high. I hope that local need and modest growth are not supposed to co-operate with our neighbours—on exactly being confused with the ramped-up desire to market the same train line, well away from residential homes, our area, as I regularly see local developments being unlike in my constituency where residents are directly actively marketed in London in terms of relocating for backing on to this site, development is starting on a quality of life. For local councils, therefore, the “predict newly constructed motorway spur off the M1 costing and provide” is hard, as we are trying to satisfy the £134 million. Also under development is a £2.5 million appetite of developers. We want to ensure that we slow passing link, which would allow freight lorries to support the local economy, businesses and the need for wait and heavy trains to let through the passenger the sort of development that our area can handle. I services that are all part of the new £6 billion Thameslink want to focus on the economic balance of an area. commuter services. Moreover, there is a willing local Locally, it is hard to find a significant number of work force who need the jobs. large brownfield sites, so any development tends to be a I cannot say this strongly enough: the public will find sensitive issue. We must make hard choices and my that scenario completely puzzling. We are supposed to authority is up for that. We are actively undertaking a have a commitment to the green belt and to the policy green-belt review, but we wish to have minimal impact of letting localism decide. We talk about having economic on our green belt and coalescence. The need for local regeneration in areas that need it and about not over-heating decision making in the planning system will be a strong the areas that do not need it. Here we have an area that theme in the debate, and Members from different areas waited to get the infrastructure in place. It now has it in will have their own issues and views in that regard. I place and the funding to facilitate it. The scheme is trust local elected representatives to act like grown-ups, included in the local plan. The reason it wants it is to to listen to residents, to recognise the need to build and improve the economic regeneration of the whole area. develop, and to plan and provide for their local area. In January, the site assessment was made in which the No one wants a no-build or silo mentality, and in council said: St Albans we are certainly not averse to having cross-border “Overall, it is considered that this site will be suitable for the authority co-operation. development of a RFI and employment land and will make a I welcomed the fact that in June my right hon. Friend significant contribution to the economic growth of the area.” the Minister urged local councils to encourage co-operation. In its own assessment, it said: I urge him now to listen to neighbouring authorities, “It will contribute to the economic delivery of the area by which are being frustrated by the current developer-led providing much needed employment opportunity to complement system. They may wish for something in their area, but the growth of north Luton and Houghton Regis.” it will not happen because something is being imposed This is where the public are puzzled; my hon. Friend in a neighbouring area. the Member for Tewkesbury (Mr Robertson), who opened A case in my area proves that point. Hertfordshire is this debate, said exactly that. We must have a degree of furiously resisting a rail freight interchange on 300 acres sympathy and co-operation with areas that are near to of green belt, slap bang in the middle of villages, us, and I really want that to happen, as people can accessed off village roads and with no direct motorway imagine. However, I am puzzled why the Minister did access. It is at a commuter pinch point on the line— not give this mutual gain and benefit to both areas. At commuters are very important to the economy of St Albans, the time of his minded-to decision—that is somewhat in and we do not have blue collar workers—and all in all, the past, so I hope today he has a chance to reflect on the villagers are up in arms about the interchange, it—he said that there was which certainly was not included in the local emerging “’little substantive evidence…to indicate that…site” development plan. We believe that it is the wrong site in was “preferable”. 155WH Planning and Housing Supply24 OCTOBER 2013 Planning and Housing Supply 156WH

Perhaps today the Minister will reflect on those recent Mrs Main: I certainly can. developments, which I believe are material planning If we are to stand for anything, it is as a Government considerations. First, Mid Bedfordshire has a firm of empowerment and choice over planning and local commitment to this project; it has expressed the need decision making. That is what the residents expected for development. There is a massive motorway funding when this Government came as a coalition. I cheered agreement now in place and going ahead. The rail the abandonment of the regional planning targets. I infrastructure work has started; he can visit it and see it. sincerely hope that this Government will review its It is in an area of green belt that is certainly not as planning processes. sensitive as mine. What is more, I am not fighting an authority that is resisting it; we are looking at an Mr Dai Havard (in the Chair): Thank you very much. authority that will welcome it with open arms. Well, Ms Vaz gave us a little bit of extra time and as My site will have 25 mph trains crossing a fast line. you, Mrs Main, are a co-sponsor of the motion, it was There will be an interruption to my commuter services, probably helpful that you had a little extra time. May I and those commuters are a part of the London economy. remind everyone please to give others the opportunity The St Albans economy is very much knowledge-based, to speak? and those workers support a lot of businesses in London. To have their fast Thameslink train commuter services 2.3 pm interrupted by 25 mph freight trains will be a nightmare. I have written to the Secretary of State for Transport Sir Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD): Thank you, because we still do not have the pathings, and we still Mr Havard, for calling me to speak. I thank you, the have not received the assurances we want. Minister, and the shadow Minister—the hon. Member for City of Durham (Roberta Blackman-Woods)—for I find it amazing that the planning process is still understanding that I am not able to be here for the developer led. Developers pick the sites they want to wind-ups. build on and it seems they are delivering some Government aims, whether on housing totals or strategic rail freight. The Minister will have noticed that there are Surely we can start looking at this process in a more 23 Government Back-Bench MPs here today, and it local fashion. may well be that, at the end of three hours of debate, he will not have too many supporters. That is because the The latest jobs figures in St Albans, which are all part reality and the rhetoric of the Localism Act 2011 sadly of the mix, confirm almost zero unemployment. Nothing are not the same, and while the intentions were clearly alters; we are fortunate in St Albans. We have a blue there, the reality is not. collar worker deficit, and yet there are nearly 5,000 unemployed people in the Luton area, which is where I will be very parochial and talk about my constituency, the proposals show we would draw our work force which is supposed to be the fastest-growing town in the from. Why are we still bussing—well, we are not using east of England. The Minister will know from questions buses, but why are we allowing cars to circulate around that I have put to him and to his predecessors that I will our countryside to access inaccessible sites, when just be site-specific. I ask him and his officials whether it is up the road from us we have an area crying out for appropriate that they will shortly make a determination economic regeneration? The second inspector’s report on a development of 1,600 homes, even though the said: section 106 agreement fails to deliver the funds for the two schools that are required. It is not me saying that “Employment has never been a major problem in this part of but Essex education authority. It says that there is no Hertfordshire. A project such as this ought to be directed towards money to build the schools. How on earth can approval a regeneration zone.” be given, particularly as the development is contrary to I agree with that. Government policy, which is that brownfield land, where Of course, a developer will always push his own site, available, should go ahead of greenfield land? whether it is for housing or—as in my case—for a major This particular site, which I have dubbed the fields of infrastructure project. Ironically, on a large infrastructure west Mile End, is adjacent to a former psychiatric project such as this one, the developer is allowed to hospital site that is on the market and zoned for housing; conduct his own alternative sites assessment and choose it has been for several years. The sale could be scuppered his own selective criteria by which to judge a site. So it is at the 11th hour if the development on the farm land not surprising that—hey presto—you can demonstrate goes ahead, because even though Colchester is the after all, Mr Havard, that after due consideration of fastest-growing town in the east of England, there must everywhere else, your site is the best—not yours, Mr Havard, come a point when there are too many houses and there but the developer’s. is a glut. We already have a glut of flats—the “Prescott” flats. The last Labour Government insisted that the Is there any consideration within the Minister’s current future was flats. We have a glut of empty flats in my thought processes about whether we can alter that town. What we want is family housing. situation? Why should the developer pick the criteria by which we will judge a site and then say, “Well, mine’s the Do hon. Members remember an advert from a few best”? If we listen to local decision makers, the answer years ago about a beer that reached the parts that other is different, as I have just demonstrated, but not surprisingly beers did not reach? Well, we have a local developer in my case I have two different developers, so each one called Mersea Homes that is able to reach land that has wants to say that their site is the best; the difference is never been lined up for development before. For example, that one local economy believes theirs is the best. the fields of west Mile End have always been land without notation—white land. It was never going to be built on, and no developer had a chance there. All of a Mr Dai Havard (in the Chair): Can I ask you to—? sudden, under the radar, the land was lined up for 157WH Planning and Housing Supply24 OCTOBER 2013 Planning and Housing Supply 158WH

[Sir Bob Russell] Arundel and South Downs (Nick Herbert), on securing this important debate on a issue that affects everybody development. The ward council did not know about it, in every constituency. or if it did—I am not sure what happened. It is the only I have long been interested in planning and there are part of my constituency with a community council— many points that I could raise, but I want to keep my Myland community council—and it was late in the day remarks brief and will restrict them to an aberration in when it found out what was going on. the planning rules. I shall also make an observation This is a bad development, a bad plan, with 1,600 houses about local development plans. to be served by the longest cul-de-sac in Britain. All the The problem is that planning authorities can give cars will pour on to the already congested highway themselves planning permission to develop sites that network around Colchester mainline station. Everybody they own. I was a city councillor in Oxford for 17 years, knows it is wrong, and in a question that I put to the until 1997, and during that time, on many occasions, the Department for Communities and Local Government, council gave itself planning permission, sometimes in I said that developers and planners should be preference to other applicants. I am certainly not suggesting “forced to live there for a minimum of five years”.—[Official that my colleagues at the time did anything wrong or Report, 4 February 2013; Vol. 558, c. 13W.] even anything questionable. However, if people own a They are creating problems for others to suffer that they site and are responsible for giving themselves permission will not suffer themselves, because they tend to live in to develop it, it is hard to ensure that there is no big houses miles away; they do not have to put up with appearance of impropriety. We all know that appearances the consequences. are important. We need to make sure that people have To the east of Colchester—this is why the hon. Members faith in the planning system. I know that this issue for Tewkesbury (Mr Robertson) and for St Albans troubles people across the country; indeed, a number of (Mrs Main) are absolutely right—the next-door council, people have raised it with me on the Isle of Wight. Tendring district council, wants to plonk houses on I am not sure what alternative procedure we could or farm land that, astonishingly, nobody has ever thought should follow. Perhaps it would be appropriate for should be built on, and on which, in 2010, Mersea neighbouring authorities—if there are neighbouring Homes secured the best part of 800 acres. Having been authorities—or a totally separate body to take decisions lucky twice with farm land that had never been zoned about council-owned land, or in cases where the local for housing, Mersea Homes must know how to go authority would benefit in some way. I should be grateful about securing it. I will leave that hanging there. if the Minister shared his thoughts on this issue and Tendring district council has the North sea on one said whether he believes it to be a problem that the side. Clacton is 15 miles from Colchester, and the council Government should address that a council may give is talking about a development of 3,000 houses adjacent planning permission for land that it owns, where it to the borough boundary of Colchester. It will double would benefit from doing so. the urban estates of Greenstead and Longridge Park. It Local development plans were introduced in 2004, so will just be an urban sprawl going eastwards. The local they postdate my experience as a councillor. I do not authority—Tendring—should build its houses where its claim to have any particular knowledge of or expertise people want them. As for the idea that people living on about them. However, I know that writing them and this huge estate right up on the border of Colchester getting them approved can be a long-drawn-out process. will look to Clacton—16 miles away, where they pay Although they replaced a system that was seen to be their council tax—rather than to Colchester, when many inflexible, the intention being that they could more of the houses will be in sight of the town hall, that is not easily be amended, having spoken to Bill Murphy, head what the Localism Act 2011 was about. of planning services at Isle of Wight council, I am not What is worrying—I will end on this, Mr Havard—is convinced that changes to the core strategy document that it is quite clear that this has all come in under the can be made as quickly and easily as was envisaged radar. Elected councillors in Colchester—virtually all when the plans were brought in. It seems to me that a of them—have not been engaged in the debate. Secrecy, Minister can change the rules much quicker than a local or at least lack of involvement, is a serious issue here. authority. There should be an inquiry into what the hell is going To provide an example of certain problems, on the on. Isle of Wight the core strategy document sets out that we should have 520 new dwellings every year. It is not a Mr Dai Havard (in the Chair): Thank you. I have had secret that I think that is far too many, but it was not a a missive from Mr Turner. Although special pleading is decision for me to make; it was made, quite properly, by not allowed, it is his birthday today. I cannot accede to an elected council. However, it is now clear that the the request that we all sing him “Happy Birthday”, but existence of that target may make it more difficult for he indicated to me that he has a pressing engagement, the Isle of Wight council effectively to oppose inappropriate so I call Mr Turner. developments, such as Pennyfeathers, a proposal to develop a 55-hectare greenfield site just outside Ryde. There are many problems with that proposal. Not least 2.10 pm of them is that Monktonmead brook already floods. Also, there are a number of brownfield sites available in Mr Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight) (Con): Thank you, and around Ryde that should be developed before greenfield Mr Havard. It is a pleasure to serve under your farm land. Putting between 800 and 1,400 additional chairmanship. I congratulate my hon. Friends the Members houses on Pennyfeathers farm land is quite wrong. I for Tewkesbury (Mr Robertson), and for St Albans sincerely hope that the council will find the grounds to (Mrs Main), and my right hon. Friend the Member for reject this development; if it does, I will be pleased. 159WH Planning and Housing Supply24 OCTOBER 2013 Planning and Housing Supply 160WH

It should be much easier to amend the core strategy an effective analysis of the limitation imposed by the supply of document to take account of changes, particularly political land for new development, historic underperformance of infrastructure change. A Conservative council may be replaced by a or environmental constraints.” Liberal council the following day. [Interruption.] Well, Are local authorities free to make such an assessment not a Liberal, but an independent one, perhaps. The and, regardless of the housing need that they assess, council should be able to change the rules, because the then decide how many houses can be delivered sustainably people have voted. That also applies to changes in in their area? Or is an assessment of need the last word? economic circumstances, changes in local authority control, The Government are driving hard at the demand to changes in demographic trends, or even changes in provide more housing. The “sustainable”part of sustainable response to proposals that are clearly against the wishes development, promised in the Localism Act, is being of local people, because if localism means anything, it put in the second rank. must take account of what local people want. I shall not A second issue is whether there is proper assessment detain the Chamber any longer. I should like the Minister of the available infrastructure. That issue was raised by to make his views clear. me and many of my hon. Friends during consideration of the Growth and Infrastructure Act 2013 in December Mr Dai Havard (in the Chair): Happy birthday, 2012. I moved an amendment stating that infrastructure Mr Turner! needs should be taken into account when drawing up local plans. I was grateful to the Minister for what he 2.15 pm said in response: Nick Herbert (Arundel and South Downs) (Con): I “I will look at making sure that the guidance that is provided in a much reduced set of planning guidance is very clear about the congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Tewkesbury need to plan positively and specifically for infrastructure that is (Mr Robertson) on securing this debate, which I am required to support the development and to ensure that it is delighted to co-sponsor. brought on stream in good time for that development.”—[Official Two years ago, we passed the Localism Act 2011 and Report, 17 December 2012; Vol. 555, c. 605.] promised local people that they would be given a greater That was a pledge that there will be very clear guidance say over matters that they care about, including on the need to plan positively for infrastructure, but development. It was part of a deliberate programme of when the guidance was published in beta form—it was a devolution of power to people and communities. Ministers draft—on 28 August, I think I am right to say that there promised, and continue to promise, that power will was no such reference to infrastructure. My second transfer to local people in accordance with our manifesto question to the Minister is whether he will in fact and the coalition agreement. I fear that, two years on, introduce that guidance on infrastructure, as he promised people’s faith in that promise will be considerably in the House last December. undermined if we allow, by the back door, the re-entry Another key way in which faith in localism will be of top-down decision making that effectively denies the undermined is if we return to the bad old days of localism that was promised. planning by appeal, and allow the Planning Inspectorate Let us consider the first problem. Central to the to overturn planning applications. That is happening Government’s new planning policy was the principle of time after time, and it is hugely undermining faith in sustainable development. Paragraph 14 of the national localism in my constituency and elsewhere. It is undermining policy framework states that this is the faith in the whole system that we have set up to encourage “golden thread” people to take responsible decisions on planning in that should run through their local area. That is not just my view. In a briefing today, the Local Government Association said that the “both plan-making and decision-taking.” Planning Inspectorate’s There are two words in the phrase “sustainable “apparent disregard for sites identified in emerging local plans development”; it is imperative that proper weight be not only undermines the principles of a plan led system and local attached to the first of them. determination set out in the NPPF, but also seriously undermines Many in communities in my constituency are concerned local communities’ trust in the planning system. This results in that inadequate consideration is given to the availability resistance to further local development, general local resentment, of infrastructure to support development proposals. We and development that does not reflect the needs of local communities have congested roads, over-subscribed schools, serious as set out in the draft published local plans.” flooding issues and countryside that is valued and in In a letter to me on 6 August, the Minister said that short supply. Half my constituency is protected landscape, “decision takers may give weight to relevant policies in emerging forcing all development proposals into the other half plans”— that is not. that is, plans that have not yet been completed, which is Under the new system, local authorities are required important, because they are either district councils’ to make an assessment of housing need, but surely that plans, or emerging neighbourhood plans, in which people cannot be the last word. If sustainable development have put a great deal of effort into deciding where means anything, local authorities must be free to decide development should go. If those plans were given no how many houses can be built—not just how many are weight, speculative applications would be allowed, and necessary—to match that need, otherwise we might as we would get a system that was not plan-led, but well return to the top-down targets. The Campaign to developer-led, which would effectively amount to a Protect Rural England’s Sussex Countryside Trust, in free-for-all on our countryside. However, when the guidance my constituency, makes the point well: was published, it actually stated that “The figures generated by the Strategic Market Housing Assessment “arguments that an application is premature are unlikely to are an assessment of need without constraints. These figures justify a refusal of planning permission other than in exceptional cannot simply be passported into an emerging local plan without circumstances”, 161WH Planning and Housing Supply24 OCTOBER 2013 Planning and Housing Supply 162WH

[Nick Herbert] had called in the applications because he wanted to give an indication on the weight that the Planning Inspectorate so will the Minister consider allowing more weight should give to draft and emerging local plans, a point to be attached to emerging plans, so that an indication raised by my right hon. Friend the Member for Arundel by local people of where they do, responsibly, want and South Downs (Nick Herbert). development, and also where they do not, is taken on I assumed that the Secretary of State would also board by the Planning Inspectorate? If that is not taken want to give some indication on how the Planning on board, again, we might as well return to the top-down Inspectorate should calculate the five-year housing supply system that we had before, which did not deliver the and would take the opportunity to reinforce the new housing that we needed, and we cannot justify Government’s belief in localism and commitment to promising to people that we are delivering localism. neighbourhood planning. In the event, the Secretary of I understand why the Government were concerned State did give a clear indication on the weight that about the situation they inherited. There was a low level should be given to the draft local plan: absolutely no of housing starts, and we have to accommodate this weight whatsoever, according to the decisions in all country’s housing need. There are important generational those appeals. By allowing all four appeals, the Secretary arguments about the lack of opportunity for young of State also made it clear that no weight or consideration people and their ability to get their foot on the housing should be given to localism or neighbourhood planning. ladder, but allowing top-down targets to return through Given that those appeals all ran so clearly counter to the back door—indeed, even encouraging them—will the provisions in Cherwell district council’s draft local not deliver the additional housing that is needed. It plan, they not surprisingly provoked a good deal of will merely deliver a great deal of pain—pain politically, anger from local residents, local councillors and indeed as people see that the promise of localism was not in myself, and given that all the decisions were made by fact real, and pain because such top-down targets will the Secretary of State, they not surprisingly attracted not help people to get their foot on the property ladder press coverage. In response to journalists’ questions on and will not have a significant effect in reducing property why the appeals had been allowed, in one article the prices. press spokesperson of the Department for Communities House building is growing at the fastest rate for and Local Government observed that the appeals had 10 years. A more radical reform will be required if we been allowed because Cherwell had not made are to seek to close the gap between incomes and “sufficient progress with their Local Plan”. rapidly rising house prices, but I urge the Government to keep faith in the localism that was promised in our I will examine that proposition. A draft local plan is manifesto and in the Act that we passed, and not to not something that can be whistled up overnight on the return to the bad old days of top-down targets and of back of an envelope; it requires consideration and full allowing the Planning Inspectorate to override local and proper consultation with local people and house decision making, which merely set up conflicts and builders. If the local planning authority gets the local delivered nothing, in terms of the housing that we plan wrong, it is liable to judicial review. needed. One of my many frustrations with the Secretary of State’s decisions is that Cherwell, after careful, widespread Mr Dai Havard (in the Chair): We have now used the and considered consultation, had managed to produce time won by Sir Bob and Mr Turner. a draft local plan to which there is practically no opposition among local people. I would have understood the Secretary of State’s decision to allow all four recent 2.24 pm planning appeals if there was a scintilla of a suggestion Sir Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): I last raised concerns that my constituents or Cherwell district council were in on planning and planning guidance in a debate I initiated any way wanting to frustrate local housing development. in the House on 18 January, which can be found at The reality is quite the contrary. Official Report column 1218. I will not repeat what Over the past 25 years, Banbury and Bicester have I said in that debate, and I will put the full text of been two of the fastest growing towns in Oxfordshire what I intend to say this afternoon on my website, and everyone accepts and recognises that Banbury and www.tonybaldry.co.uk. Bicester will continue to develop with new housing In January, I expressed concerns that developers were growth over the next 20 years. Indeed, I can only making opportunist planning applications in the hope assume that Ministers in the Department for Communities of securing planning permission before the adoption and Local Government simply do not talk to each and introduction of a new local plan, and I also observed other. That may be a consequence of the fact that, that if localism and neighbourhood planning were to unlike in my day, when Housing Ministers—as the have any meaning, local communities must have the Chief Whip, the right hon. Member for North West opportunity and a reasonable period of time in which Hampshire (Sir George Young), who was here briefly, to draw up neighbourhood plans. I drew the House’s and I were—were also Planning Ministers, those roles attention to four specific planning applications in my now seem to have been separated. constituency, all of which clearly ran counter to Cherwell If Planning Ministers had spoken to Housing Ministers, district council’s local plan. they would have learnt that Housing Ministers had Following that debate, the Secretary of State for made numerous visits to my constituency over the past Communities and Local Government decided to call in couple of years to support and encourage the numerous all four planning appeals. As a former Planning Minister, housing initiatives in north Oxfordshire, including: one I am well aware of how rarely Ministers call in planning of only two eco-town projects left and being developed, applications, so I assumed that the Secretary of State which in due course will deliver approximately 5,000 houses; 163WH Planning and Housing Supply24 OCTOBER 2013 Planning and Housing Supply 164WH probably the fastest turnaround to grant planning work. Local authorities and local people, having granted permission for new housing on a major Government permission on significant sites, are not to blame if the surplus brownfield site on former Ministry of Defence house builders decide not to build until some time in the land at Bicester, granting planning permission for future, for whatever commercial reasons of their own. 1,900 houses; and one of the largest, if not the largest, From what the Secretary of State decided in the four proposed self-build housing projects anywhere in the appeals, it appears that the local plan will have no country. Indeed, the Minister’s Department and the weight until it is actually adopted. It cannot be adopted, Homes and Communities Agency tell me that what we however, until after the process of examination in public. are proposing at Bicester will be the largest self-build District councils such as Cherwell are in no way in scheme by a long way anywhere in the country and will control of when the Planning Inspectorate will undertake deliver up to 1,900 houses. Cherwell district council is and complete the continuous improvement plan. Until so keen to get house building going in north Oxfordshire then, we are all vulnerable to continuing opportunist that it has offered to buy the surplus MOD land from planning applications by developers who strongly suspect the Government, so that it can ensure that new house that they will be allowed by the Planning Inspectorate building takes place there as speedily as possible. or by the Secretary of State on appeal. This very Monday, Cherwell district council agreed its local plan for submission to the Secretary of State at 2.33 pm a meeting of the full council, which endorsed it with a unanimous vote. No responsible local authority could Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD): I apologise to have produced a local plan more quickly. The agreed you, Mr Havard, and to my neighbour, the hon. Member plan makes robust provision for housing until 2031 and for Tewkesbury (Mr Robertson), for missing the opening envisages 16,750 new houses being built in Cherwell speech. I congratulate the hon. Members who secured district during the survey period up to 2021. That is in a the debate, which is enormously important. robust and deliverable local plan that has been adopted The issue is enormously important politically for unanimously and without any significant local opposition. both coalition parties, because we both made profound Moreover, the House might be interested to know that promises in opposition. The Conservative party’s policy more than 50% of the planned houses are already being document, “Open Source Planning”, states: built or are subject to planning applications under “Our emphasis on local control will allow local planning active consideration by the district council. Cherwell authorities to determine exactly how much development they not only has an agreed local plan, but is doing all that it want, of what kind and where”— can to deliver on the provisions of that plan. not how much an econometric model tells them they The whole point of local plans, however, is to enable need, or how much demand has to be met, but how local councils and local communities to decide where much development they want. new housing provision should go. Cherwell’s local plan The Liberal Democrats produced a document called focuses development growth on the towns of Banbury “Our Natural Heritage”, which states that and Bicester, while avoiding coalescence with villages by “our quality of life is dependant on the quality of our environment. introducing new green buffers around the towns. That We will not only work to maintain and enhance it but will give seems to be a wholly commendable policy aspiration on people more access to and influence over it.” the part of district councillors. One of the ways in which we suggested doing that was a One of the recent planning appeals decided by the new designation, the local green space designation. I Secretary of State, however, drove a complete coach helped to author that policy, and I was proud when it and horses through that policy aspiration of developing made its way into the coalition agreement, and from green buffers, by allowing development in an area that there into the “Natural Environment White Paper” and the district council had allocated as a green buffer in the then the national planning policy framework. As the local plan. In effect, the Secretary of State has allowed a Prime Minister said to the director of the National policy of first come, first served, with planning permission Trust, I think, it would be a tool that local people could being given to whichever house builders or developers use to protect not vast tracts of countryside, but those happen to get their planning applications in earliest. local spaces that were not necessarily the most beautiful This is not plan-led development; this is not central or the most rich in great crested newts, but the ones planning policy—this is planning anarchy. valued by communities. My hon. Friend the Minister will say that the Secretary Instinctively, all of us know which those areas are—we of State, having granted planning permission, now has can all think of that local area that people have been no locus on those decisions. In law, that is correct, campaigning to protect, sometimes for decades, as in although Cherwell district council is not surprisingly the case of Leckhampton in my constituency. I thought, considering with leading counsel whether there are good “At last, we have a Government committed to localism, grounds to take the Secretary of State to the High which I am proud to be part of and a supporter of”— Court for judicial review of his decisions. Ministers may Conservative colleagues were equally proud—and that no longer be legally accountable for their decisions, but the Government were actually going to deliver on such they are politically accountable. promises, rejecting the very unpopular, top-down regional Ministers say that one reason for allowing the appeals spatial strategies that seemed to be imposing numbers was because, at the time the planning applications were from above. The regional spatial strategy in the south-west made, the district did not have adequate five-year housing had 35,000 objections—but the situation around my supply. One of the main reasons why the district did not constituency in Cheltenham is every bit as bad now. have adequate supply, however, was because, on a number In practice, we are facing the loss of vast areas of of significant sites where developers had been granted green fields. The local paper converted the amount into planning permission, they had simply not started building that popular measure of area, football pitches—about 165WH Planning and Housing Supply24 OCTOBER 2013 Planning and Housing Supply 166WH

[Martin Horwood] I think we will end up in a situation that is just as bad as under the regional spatial strategies. I want to go 2,000 football pitches of green fields are about to be back to my local councillors and constituents to say lost, if the plan being formulated in the joint core that the coalition Government have delivered on their strategy goes through. Almost everything in the plan is promises, but I have to tell the Minister that that is not greenfield sites, and almost all those sites are in the what is happening now. green belt—there is a Kafkaesque process whereby the green belt boundary is redesignated, so that the bits taken out of the green belt can be built on, while 2.39 pm claiming that the green belt is not being built on. Rebecca Harris (Castle Point) (Con): Earlier speakers Equally badly, another area at Leckhampton had a have said many of the things that I wanted to say, but sustainability assessment and a green belt review, which possibly more elegantly. talked about its value in biodiversity, public access, the I thank the Minister for declining a developer’s appeal enjoyment that it brings, its rural character, and such in my constituency. That was warmly received, but we things—all of which were recognised by inspectors in are on notice that developers may keep pushing, and the past—but again that is included simply because the they will. econometric model dictates a certain number. That I think all hon. Members here greatly welcomed the number for around Cheltenham is at least 10,000 houses, abolition of the previous housing regime and everything which is a 20% increase in the size of the town. That is in the new national planning policy, including abolition not sustainable. of the regional spatial strategy housing targets. However, As the right hon. Member for Arundel and South I see all around, particularly in my area, that it is pretty Downs (Nick Herbert) rightly said, it is as if the rest of much business as usual for planning departments, for the national planning policy framework, which we the Planning Inspectorate and certainly for developers. celebrated at the time of its second draft, did not really Some key aspects of the current regime seem very exist. There were elements that discussed balancing similar to the old regime and are being interpreted and economic growth with environmental and social factors, treated similarly—for example, the requirement to find and things such as the local green space designation to the local need. It is not a target, but it must be established protect what people really cared about; among the core based on complicated methodology. Consultants in my planning principles were meant to be respect for the area have come up with four or five different scenarios, environment and sustainability, and prioritisation of all wildly different, about local housing need. It is open spaces and, if possible, brownfield over greenfield supposed to be objective, but councillors will have to development. In practice, however, at local level all of choose the figure that they believe is most likely to be that appears to count for absolutely nothing. We are accepted by the Planning Inspectorate. That does not told that the objectively assessed housing need dictated strike me as wholly objective. by the econometric model must be observed absolutely— We must put together a local plan that specifies that the developers must get absolutely everything that deliverable land over a certain number of years and they are demanding, because otherwise unelected inspectors then developable land. There must be objective evidence will declare the whole plan unsound. of whether it really is deliverable, and I understand that. There is a nice coalition balance of local councillors We cannot have local councils saying they want to build in Gloucestershire. In the constituency of my neighbour all their houses on what is currently a lake because that the hon. Member for Tewkesbury and in Gloucester would be a good way to get around having building city, we have Conservative councillors who felt obliged done. In the world of planning, however, what is deliverable to vote for the thing, while the Liberal Democrats very is entirely down to argument. The big unit developers much enjoyed opposing them. In Cheltenham, it was may see the four or five attractive green fields that are rather the other way around—many Liberal Democrats left in a borough, and argue that they could put their and some Conservatives voted for it, while others voted bulldozers on there tomorrow, that the development against. The result was that councillors were put between would be in single ownership and that that would be a a rock and a hard place. They were told that if they good deal with a percentage going to the farmer. No voted things down and did not move on at least to the one could argue otherwise—it is clearly developable next stage of consultation, the plan was likely to be tomorrow. declared unsound, it would all fall apart and we would end up with a developers’ free-for-all. What happened in practice over the last decade and during the previous Government’s regime is that land I have to tell the Minister that local people see very was banked and there was not enough work done or little distinction between what is emerging from some pressure put on the little brownfield sites in multiple local plans and a developers’ free-for-all. Despite all our ownership, which is what we should be doing now. promises in opposition, despite the national planning Those are the sites our communities would prefer to be policy framework and despite all the grand words in it developed, not the fields that they see and appreciate. about balancing environmental and economic factors and respecting open space and sustainability, we are in a I urge the Minister to put as much pressure as he can position that is every bit as bad as the regional spatial on councils when interpreting and putting together strategies. That is simply not acceptable— their plans. In the national planning policy framework and the recent guidance, which I greatly welcome, it is Annette Brooke (Mid Dorset and North Poole) (LD): clear that our councils have the power to do something Will my hon. Friend give way? about small sites, which may be in multiple ownership with some planning constraints. They can knock heads Martin Horwood: I suspect that I shall be out of time together and encourage local people to suggest such shortly, so I fear that I had better not. sites. That would save us from losing the fields that we 167WH Planning and Housing Supply24 OCTOBER 2013 Planning and Housing Supply 168WH all love and appreciate. However, that is a big ask for a busy that children living just across the road from their constrained planning department. Everyone is feeling local school may struggle to get into them. Most of all, the pinch at the moment, and the planning inspector is people were exasperated and frustrated that the planning breathing down councils’ necks to get the local plan system was something that happened to them, and that completed. It is a lot more work and takes a lot more they had little say in it. Sometimes, even when the time, but it can be done. For example, if we want to council said no and that enough was enough, an appeal build houses, we are much more likely to get small local was allowed. I cannot express strongly enough the sites up and running. If we told the local scrap metal anger and resentment that that created. dealer, who has gone bust because we have changed the When the Government talked about planning reform, law and he cannot take cash, that he could build five or I thought “Hallelujah”. Many of the changes have been six starter homes on his land tomorrow, he would not welcome and in the right direction. Reducing the plethora do what the big unit developers do and wait until the of guidance and advice to a more manageable document time is right or build only one or two homes because he is making life a lot less complex and the system more does not want to flood the market; he would sell straight understandable. The ability to create neighbourhood away and houses would be built there. forums to offer real engagement is hugely welcome. We should change what we are doing and target I pay tribute to the Minister for taking time to visit so smaller and less popular sites that have local owners, many constituencies around the country. I was pleased who will use local builders and local estate agents. We to welcome him to mine, where he heard the concerns of would then have a much more popular local plan for local councillors and others, and saw for himself the residents, and we would not have the big household-name significant development that has taken place. That was developers acquiring 600-unit sites where, if they got appreciated. I have noticed that when hon. Members around to building houses on them, it would not be in list a number of positives in this place, a “but” invariably the time frame we want, and would market them out of follows, and here it comes. Despite the Government’s town and in London. Local estate agents would not get work, a problem threatens the intentions of localism a look-in, and the houses would not go to local people. and people’s trust that we will have a real bottom-up That is the problem with the current planning regime, approach to planning. and we desperately need the Department to tell councils Localism is about local communities deciding what, that it expects them to plan positively. Planning positively where and when development should take place. There under the national planning policy framework does not has been a real appetite and interest in my constituency mean more green-belt sites with many houses on them. in being involved in the planning process. Groups such It means they should find out where they want houses, as Wharfedale and Airedale Review Development and and make that happen. We must get that message Aireborough Civic Society have campaigned long and across, because it is in the national planning policy hard on the issue. In addition, residents have turned up framework and it is good stuff, but out there on the in their hundreds at public meetings when these issues ground it does not seem to be working. were discussed. Organisations such as Horsforth town I plead with the Minister to ensure that he directs council. Rawdon parish council and Aireborough councils to use their powers of compulsory purchase Neighbourhood Forum have all worked incredibly hard and to find owners of sites that people would like to be to engage with the whole community, bringing residents, developed, instead of what happens at the moment with schools and businesses together to develop a vision of the big boys turning up, driving round the area, seeing future development that is sustainable, realistic and the half a dozen local fields that everyone loves and seeks to preserve our natural surroundings. appreciates, putting in a planning application, and arguing I am talking not just about building houses but about time and again that that is more deliverable. creating places that people want to live in, work in and play in: real place-making. Something is jeopardising Mr Dai Havard (in the Chair): Wenowmovefrom all that work, and is still seen by my constituents as a south-east England to Mr Stuart Andrew who will give top-down major influence: the housing targets that we us a view from the north. have heard so much about today. We all know that the original regional spatial strategy placed huge burdens 2.45 pm on local authorities, but despite abolition of the RSS, little has changed with the targets. In my constituency, Stuart Andrew (Pudsey) (Con): I welcome this debate the core strategy of the city council is being examined. and congratulate my hon. Friends on securing it. I have It includes a plan to build 74,000 homes over the next been interested in the subject for a long time, not just 14 years, and it arrived at that figure with a host of because I represent a heavily affected ward, but because scenarios ranging from 27,500 to 92,000. That means I am a member of a plans panel on Leeds city council. that the council has gone for the high end because it My constituency has seen many significant changes believes that the Government expect it to be far more over the past 20 years. It was renowned for its cloth and ambitious than can reliably be achieved. I, local councillors, woollen mills, and other industries, but as those industries and all the groups I have mentioned have argued, ever declined, their sites became redundant and places such since the document came out in draft form, that the as Pudsey, Farsley and Guiseley saw those employment figures are far too high. Despite our logical arguments, sites turned into residential areas. During the first decade the council has kept the target, fearing that the inspector of the this century, we were inundated with application will force it to go even higher. The problem is that the after application to build even more houses, and council is far too ambitious. consequently our roads are congested beyond belief at What is the consequence? The council then has to weekends and during weekdays and evenings. Our surgeries prove that it has the land to supply such high targets. have more and more patients and our schools are so Even with the existing permissions of 20,000 dwellings, 169WH Planning and Housing Supply24 OCTOBER 2013 Planning and Housing Supply 170WH

[Stuart Andrew] In Alsager alone, which is a town of some 5,500 houses, applications are in the pipeline for 3,000 dwellings. This there is still not enough land, so the council is now is a town recently described by the chief planning looking at greenfield and green belt, meaning that in my officer of Cheshire East council as “currently constituency up to 80% of all new homes will be built unsustainable”. In Sandbach, which is a town of 8,000, on green-belt or greenfield sites. The precious places some 6,000 applications have been granted or are in the that are the lungs of our communities, the natural pipeline. Just last week, two consents for Sandbach barriers between the towns and villages, and the green were granted, in Abbeyfields and Congleton road. That borders between the cities of Leeds and Bradford, will makes the consents already granted for Sandbach sufficient all be gone. They are now all under threat and my to cover one third of its 20-year supply. And those are constituents are clearly not happy. Even in the best of on greenfield sites. This is countryside. This is prime the boom years, we never managed to build so many agricultural land. The mayor of Sandbach is in the houses, and developers want to go even higher, saying Chamber today, having come directly from 10 Downing that the brownfield sites in the city centre are not viable. street, where he presented a petition objecting to the That is because they are lazy and do not want to be Government’s policies. ambitious about creating places where people want to There is then the unclear procedure surrounding the live in our city centres. requirement for a five-year supply of housing. That is The other day, I asked my hon. Friend the Minister simply unjust. The primary reason for the two appeals what happens if the inspector, in the process of looking granted last week was that Cheshire East apparently is at these figures, agrees to such a high amount. If it is unable to demonstrate a five-year housing supply, and approved, I fear that the brownfield sites in city centres yet the council told residents months ago that it had will be abandoned, that the developers will cherry-pick developed a robust strategic housing land availability the green belt, and that residents will be stuck between assessment, which would satisfy requirements for a the Government saying that local councils can set high five-year housing supply. targets and the council saying that the Government Who is right—national Government, through the expect high targets. inspectorate, or local government? How was it that I know that the Minister will say that the target needs Cheshire East could say that it had demonstrated a to be objectively assessed, but what happens if those five-year supply if clearly it had not? Is there no means figures are approved? Is there any appeal process for my by which such statements can be validated with central constituents to present their case? They are doing so Government before they are made? Surely the only way brilliantly at the hearing, but if we are saddled with cannot be for the strength of such a supply statement to those housing targets, our green belt will be ravaged, be tested on appeal, because it adds insult to injury for and future residents will not be able to do anything, thousands of pounds of local taxpayers’ money to be because the period will already have been set in stone. spent on such appeals, when it could be spent on Worst of all, however, it will send a message that some meeting local people’s needs. There is so much confusion already believe: localism goes only so far, but not far regarding the requirements that injustice is being introduced enough where it matters. into our communities, particularly because there are other sites—brownfield and non-brownfield, including Mr Dai Havard (in the Chair): In my spatial planning, in Sandbach—that the local community have already we now move to Cheshire and Ms Fiona Bruce. said that they will accept for development. That brings me to my next point. It is wholly wrong that people in the towns of Alsager, Congleton, Middlewich 2.52 pm and Sandbach in my constituency were offered the Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con): I am here as a voice opportunity and funding under the Government’s for my constituents, who feel grievously let down by the neighbourhood plan front-runner schemes to develop lack of clarity of the planning policy, practices and neighbourhood plans, only to find that those town procedures of local and national Government. Only plans count for absolutely nothing, in terms of the one thing is clear: despite more than 20 action groups Planning Inspectorate’s decisions regarding appeals against representing thousands of people across my constituency, developments. despite many public meetings, the most recent of which The situation is also producing inconsistent decision was held last night in Congleton town hall, despite my making. Just last week, when two developers’ applications bringing successive leaders of Cheshire East council to were accepted for Sandbach, we had a refusal for a site meet Ministers for clarity on these issues, and despite at Sandbach road north in Alsager. That was despite the countless letters having been sent to Ministers on behalf inspectorate acknowledging the lack of a demonstrable of constituents, we still have developer-led development five-year supply of deliverable housing in Cheshire East, in our area and unsustainable, unplanned development. and apparently, according to my interpretation, giving It ignores town plans, places no weight on the emerging weight to the draft Cheshire East local plan, which local plan and makes a mockery of localism. other decisions refused to do. It stated: The national planning policy framework, with its “It would seem wise in this part of the borough not to proceed presumption of sustainable development, contains an with development which would go beyond the draft strategy at inadequate definition of that—in fact, it is barely a this stage.” definition at all—which certainly does not equate with The inspectorate also rejected the developer’s appeal my constituents’ definition. Sustainability means there on the grounds that it is in open countryside, and that being enough schools, roads, medical centres and facilities harm to it would be significant and demonstrable. But for local people, and there simply will not be enough if so it would be to Abbeyfields, Congleton road and the rate of development continues in our towns. Hind Heath in Sandbach, which have already been 171WH Planning and Housing Supply24 OCTOBER 2013 Planning and Housing Supply 172WH granted. We really need clarity on these issues. How in the current planning system. The local plan has been long should a local plan realistically take to develop? controversial because of the number of homes that have We pride ourselves in this country on clear and speedy been proposed by the council, as well as their concentration delivery of justice. We say that justice delayed is justice and location. First, the scale of the proposed housing denied. We talk about the rule of law. And yet, in development is enormous. The local plan outlines planning, we could not have murkier, muddier waters. the building, during the next 16 years, of more than That is simply unfair. 12,000 homes, in addition to the 6,000 that we built Our local authority has been working for three years between 2001 and 2011. That would increase the number on a local plan. What has gone wrong? Why does the of dwellings in Warwick district by about 20% during draft plan that was prepared last year, which was the the next two decades. subject of a six-week public consultation, now have to be radically altered and be the subject of a further [MR GRAHAM BRADY in the Chair] public consultation, while all the time, developers rub The “Strategic Housing Land Availability Assessment” their hands with glee and take advantage of that void? compiled by the council has indicated that the total Will the Minister provide whatever assistance is required capacity of the district is about 13,000 dwellings between for Cheshire East council from a senior planning adviser 2014 and 2029, so the proposed local plan would use up to ensure that there are no further delays or confusion 91.8% of the total capacity. Planning is something that regarding what is required to get our local plan through? we must consider over the long term. Once homes are My constituents have had enough. built, we cannot turn back the clock to change the I also ask the Minister to ensure that we have clarity mistakes that we have made, so we must consider the on our five-year housing supply numbers, and that a long-term sustainability of our planning decisions as a clear message is sent to the people of my constituency, whole. How can it be sustainable to build so many new as I have sought to provide for three years, giving them homes and to use up so much capacity? every and any necessary and available means of help to The concentration of development is also a deep resolve those issues. My constituents simply cannot concern and raises questions of fairness. The majority understand the situation. They feel angry, in despair, of the new properties will be in the area south of ignored, impotent as regards the plans for development Warwick, Leamington and Whitnash, with 70% of the of their own communities, and without any democratic new homes being placed in that part of the district. recourse, as one has said to me, except the ballot box. That is despite the fact that there has been, and continues On behalf of the Under-Secretary of State for Education, to be, a considerable amount of housing development my hon. Friend the Member for Crewe and Nantwich in that part of the district and there are already concerns (Mr Timpson), I confirm that he, too, has been working about the impact that the proposals will have on local tirelessly with planning action groups in his constituency, infrastructure. I do not believe it is fair that such a which is adjacent to mine, and also in Cheshire East. He concentration is allowed in that part of the district. recently arranged for the Planning Minister to speak to Residents of those areas are rightly angry about the those groups so that they could hear the advice that the sacrifices that they are being asked to make in order to Department had for Cheshire East council on resolving allow the development of so many new homes. the adoption of the local plan and housing supply. I I shall take this opportunity to urge Warwick district would appreciate that advice and clarity being given council, once again, to pause the local plan process and today in the Minister’s response. start discussions with local residents so that we can build a consensus on creating a sustainable future for Mr Dai Havard (in the Chair): Thank you. Mr Brady our community. During the process, in the lead-up to will take over from me shortly. I ask you to temper your the preferred options being outlined by the district enthusiasm with the pessimism of the intellect, and council, it was clear that residents did not want to have look more towards six minutes than seven for your that number of homes and that they wanted development future contributions. We now move back to the west to take place primarily on brownfield land, rather than midlands and Mr White. greenfield land as is proposed. That will have an impact on the wonderful Warwickshire countryside. Our area 2.59 pm has a large percentage of green belt, and I do not believe that we should develop on green-belt land. However, Chris White (Warwick and Leamington) (Con): It is a that does not give the local authority an excuse to pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for concentrate developments on non-protected greenfield Congleton (Fiona Bruce), who gave a passionate speech. sites. If our district was 95% green belt rather than I also start by thanking my hon. Friends the Members 80%, would that mean that all development would be for Tewkesbury (Mr Robertson) and for St Albans concentrated in the unprotected 5%? Surely it would (Mrs Main) and my right hon. Friend the Member for make sense to adjust the scale and ambitions of the Arundel and South Downs (Nick Herbert) for securing development, rather than to ram through such large this important debate. As we can see from the speeches developments, which take no account of this situation. that we have heard so far from around the country, this However, the views to which I have referred have not is an issue that affects so many of our constituencies. been consistently accepted by the council to date. As a During the past two years, Warwick district council result, public confidence in it has been damaged, and has been seeking to create a new local plan that will that will undermine future efforts by the council to guide the development of our community for the next undertake consultations on new developments or 18 years. That is a hugely important document, but infrastructure. I appreciate that councils have an obligation it has been mired in controversy and opposition since it to ensure that there is enough housing to meet demand was put forward. That highlights some of the problems in the future, but I also think that we need to ensure that 173WH Planning and Housing Supply24 OCTOBER 2013 Planning and Housing Supply 174WH

[Chris White] covering vast swathes of green-belt land in my constituency. It was, until recently, pursuing those sites as potential that obligation is met in the right way. I do not believe wind farms. However, due to the unsurprising lack of that Warwick district council has so far acted in the sufficient wind speed in the Vale of York—something right spirit during this planning process. that was obvious to most local people, but that the I believe that the Government have done the right council and the local taxpayer-funded studies failed to thing through the Localism Act 2011 to try to ensure pick up—I have now been given the impression from that communities have greater control over planning the council that it is considering solar farms on the sites matters. However, we also need to ensure that the as an alternative. process is carried out in the right way, in empathy with I am therefore speaking on behalf of my constituents such localism, that councils do not ride roughshod over in welcoming the recent announcements from the Minister the desires of local people, and that the principles of of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change, localism are delivered on the ground. my right hon. Friend the Member for Bexhill and Battle The best way forward would be for the Government (Gregory Barker), about the Government’s determination to get each local authority to sign up to a national to crack down on inappropriately sited solar farms in planning compact that outlines how councils are expected the countryside by introducing the solar road map. I to carry out their consultations on planning matters; urge the City of York council to consider very carefully the role that local communities should have in co-producing what the Minister has been saying on the matter and proposals such as the local plan; and best practice in not to ignore the views of local residents. terms of planning processes that have been carried Turning to the important issue of housing supply, I forward and that have brought communities with them. want to make it clear that, like many right hon. and Having such a compact would ensure that each local hon. Members here today, I fully support the decision authority was taking a long, hard look at how it was to scrap the rigid, top-down housing targets in the developing its local plan. regional spatial strategies. The Government should be We must have a system whereby people feel that they congratulated on doing that. However, three years on, have ownership of the planning process and whereby there remains confusion among some local authorities they can have confidence in the decisions that are reached. about what housing targets are appropriate. That will ensure that we create plans that have the support of residents, are in the long-term interests of our community, Some local authorities surrounding York are reducing will address real housing needs and will almost certainly their targets from the levels that they were at in the now create local economies that grow and prosper. redundant regional spatial strategy. Meanwhile, York, which is currently controlled by Labour, is proposing to 3.5 pm increase its old housing targets by more than 40%. In doing so, the council is placing itself completely at odds Julian Sturdy (York Outer) (Con): It is a pleasure to with the guiding principle behind the modern planning serve under your chairmanship, Mr Brady, and to speak framework—that development should always be sustainable. in this very important debate. I congratulate my right hon. and hon. Friends on securing it. Like many other York is an historic city in which the local infrastructure Members, I would like to highlight some of the concerns is already under strain. Adding tens of thousands of in my constituency. new homes will mean tens of thousands more cars on York, like so many other towns and cities across the an already congested road network and thousands more country, is surrounded by green-belt land, which is vital pupils trying to gain entry to our excellent but already in preserving and enhancing its character and setting. It oversubscribed schools. That is not to mention the is as important to the identity of our great city as the drainage and the strain on existing health care facilities. Gothic minster, the Roman walls and the National With approximately two thirds of the council’s overall Railway Museum. To my mind, it is an essential part of housing projections to be allocated to York’s established York’s DNA. green belt, I am deeply concerned that the plan will However, the very fabric of what makes York such a push our already creaking local infrastructure to breaking great and beautiful city is under threat from the misguided point. The council has provided no guarantees that it plans of the local authority. The City of York council will help secure the investment we need in our local published its draft local plan in April of this year and, infrastructure. It clearly believes the local plan will to the utter dismay of many of my constituents, the result in economic growth for York, but having investigated plan proposes to take 1,400 acres out of York’s green the issue, I fear that putting the cart before the horse belt and build 16,000 new homes on that land during and failing to guarantee the infrastructure investment the 15-year life of the plan. As if that was not enough to York already needs will lead many of the city’s leading satisfy the council’s appetite for green-belt land, a further employers to question in the long term whether York is 1,000 acres will be removed from the green belt and still a suitable base for their businesses. safeguarded for future development. Sadly, the plan In its current form, the plan has the potential to end does not stop there. The council has also proposed in disaster for York on the economic stage. That is why I more than 80 additional Traveller and showpeople pitches, entirely agree with my right hon. Friend the Member all in inappropriate locations, on green-belt land, in for Arundel and South Downs (Nick Herbert) that the quiet rural communities such as Dunnington, Knapton requirement for infrastructure must be considered when and Huntington in my constituency. granting planning consent—something that, to be frank, The icing on the cake is that the council is also is blindingly obvious. I was reassured by the pledge pursuing its plans to destroy the open countryside that from the former Minister of State at the Department, surrounds our great city with 40 the right hon. Member for Tunbridge Wells (Greg Clark), “areas of search for renewable electricity generation”, that the requirement would form part of the planning 175WH Planning and Housing Supply24 OCTOBER 2013 Planning and Housing Supply 176WH guidance. I hope, therefore, that the omission will be they established the world’s first conservation area by rectified, as York’s future viability as a centre of commerce Act of Parliament in 1884. Since then, the hills have and enterprise could depend on it. been owned for the common good by the Malvern Hills Local authorities that press ahead with unsustainable Conservators charity. That organic approach has worked housing plans must be stopped and compelled to consider well for this country for the thousands of years there whether they have the necessary infrastructure in place; have been settlements in Worcestershire and elsewhere. if not, they should change their plans accordingly. That is why I am so supportive of the recent changes to Equally, we must ensure that the important principles the planning system, which move us back in the direction of sustainability and green-belt protection remain central of the village and the neighbourhood, while embodying to the national planning policy framework and that our the countryside protections pioneered by the Malvern local authorities understand that that is the case. Otherwise, Hills Conservators. I fear that the towns and cities we are proud to represent In south Worcestershire, we may be a bit further will change out of all recognition. ahead on our local plan than other colleagues are on In summary, the tension between our local planning theirs. Our three local councils—Worcester City, Malvern authorities and the planning inspector is twofold. Where Hills and Wychavon, which my hon. Friend the Minister councils produce reasonable, appropriate and sustainable visited recently—have been working in partnership for local plans, we face the problem of planning inspectors many years to develop an ambitious and sound local overstepping the mark and making unreasonable demands. plan. After the 2010 election, they presciently commissioned In areas such as York, however, we appear to face the expert projections of population growth and perhaps opposite problem, because the local authorities propose got a head start on some other council areas. Their to decimate our open countryside and change it out of evidence base is now more up to date and fresher than all recognition. I therefore reiterate that it is vital that those in some other parts of the country. we have a strong and fair Planning Inspectorate to All three local councils democratically agreed the protect our communities and countryside from plan last December. I can assure hon. Members that unsustainable development. That means that infrastructure that was not without a great deal of controversy, but must be at the heart of any considerations. one factor that encouraged councillors to vote in favour of the plan was that it would allow them to be in 3.12 pm control. The south Worcestershire development plan has much more up-to-date and adequate five-year land Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con): I, too, supply numbers and such ambitious plans for employment congratulate my right hon. Friend the Member for land that we are getting complaints from Birmingham Arundel and South Downs (Nick Herbert) and my hon. councils. Friends the Members for Tewkesbury (Mr Robertson) When I say the plan was democratically agreed last and for St Albans (Mrs Main) on securing the debate. December, people complain that a bit of whipping was The issue of planning also fills my postbag. I represent involved. Well, I hate to tell my local councillors this, the thriving, beautiful constituency of West Worcestershire, but Whips are often involved in democracy here in which has one of the highest ratios in the west midlands Westminster. However, despite the vote last December, of house prices to average earnings. It is also the birthplace it took a further five months to send the plan to the of Elgar, and its countryside inspired much of his inspector for the examination in public and another few music. months for him to decide on his inspection plan and Despite all the valid concerns colleagues have raised, timetable. The inspection has just got under way, and I I think we are in a much better place on planning than would not be surprised if it took the inspector well into we were under the Stalinist diktats of the right hon. 2014 before he recommends adoption. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown), I want this period of uncertainty to be over, so that and I agree with colleagues who have welcomed the we can move forward with the construction, growth and abolition of the regional spatial strategy. jobs embodied in the plan. A delay of 18 months to two Shifting local planning decisions to councils, which years is too long, and it undermines the local democracy makes so much democratic sense, has raised a range of of the vote in December. As the Minister knows, I and issues. I particularly welcome the Government’s introduction the leader of the council in my area have written to him. of neighbourhood planning. In the Malvern Hills district, I have also written to the local planning inspector the parishes of Kempsey, Clifton upon Teme, Leigh and urging him to respect the local plan unless there are Bransford, Alfrick and Lulsley, Martley, and Knightwick actual factual inaccuracies in it. The inspector has and Doddenham have all had their neighbourhood written a helpful reply, assuring me that he will seek to areas approved. complete his inspection as soon as possible, subject to When we discuss planning, however, one thing that the legal requirements on him. The Minister has also strikes me is that the beautiful villages we all love—in responded constructively. my area, I have the villages around Bredon Hill, the Here is my wish list of four things I would like to ask town of Pershore and the towns and villages of the the Minister for. First, as he finalises his latest national Malvern Hills district—all grew up without our current planning practice guidance, which will set out the planning regulations. Ironically, however, we would not exceptional circumstances in which a refusal may be be able to build those communities under today’s planning justified on the grounds of prematurity, will he try to rules. Their growth tended to be more organic and more ensure that the democratically agreed plans that have bottom up; people built their own homes on their own emerged will get almost full weight in any decision land, which they had bought for that purpose. When making, allowing the fresh evidence base and the numbers the Victorians became concerned that Great Malvern in the plan to be used, unless the inspector sees actual was encroaching far too much on the Malvern hills, errors of fact, rather than just a divergence of opinion? 177WH Planning and Housing Supply24 OCTOBER 2013 Planning and Housing Supply 178WH

[Harriett Baldwin] my hon. Friend the Member for Congleton (Fiona Bruce) and the Under-Secretary of State for Education, Surely the future of the area should be entrusted to my hon. Friend the Member for Crewe and Nantwich south Worcestershire councillors, rather than shaped by (Mr Timpson), I have attended many public meetings contesting opinions—they will only be opinions—from and met many community groups, so that I could Birmingham and elsewhere? understand their concerns better and help to shape and Secondly, may I ask the Minister for his thoughts on refine the plan. how we as MPs can best support emerging neighbourhood I am pleased to say that the residents of Macclesfield plans? I love neighbourhood planning, which is an are not shy about coming forward with their concerns. excellent way of giving power to local people and That is a good thing, and means that there has been bringing back an organic approach to planning, reducing rigorous and challenging debate. I commend those who the need for vast swathes of land to be swallowed up by have taken part in campaigns about south-west Macclesfield, urban extensions. Thirdly, can we reassure villages that, Fence Avenue and Lark Hall, to name a few, for the way once they have agreed their neighbourhood plan and in which they engaged elected representatives and clearly won a vote on it in a referendum, it will take precedence expressed their views. I know that the final local plan over the local plan, even if that has been adopted? will be much better for that. We recognise in Cheshire Finally, what can the Minister say to the octogenarian East, and in Macclesfield in particular, that the local farmer in my local area who lives in a draughty five- plan urgently needs to be signed off to stop unwanted bedroom home and who wants nothing more than to speculative housing developments, as my neighbour, my build a bungalow in the field next door for the final hon. Friend the Member for Congleton, so clearly years of his life? Under today’s rules, such building is articulated. At the moment they are a particular challenge prohibited in open countryside. If there is a neighbourhood in the south of the borough. In Congleton and Crewe plan, will my farmer have any hope that he can build his work is going on tirelessly with Cheshire East council bungalow? and residents to stop them, and I fully support that Once again, I congratulate my right hon. and hon. work. Friends on securing the debate, and I thank you, Mr Brady, We need to get the local plan set up, and are working for allowing me to pass on the concerns of my constituents hard, but we need the Minister’s support and advice to in the glorious area of West Worcestershire. get the right plan signed off. I am, like other hon. Members, grateful for the Minister’s efforts to understand the issues on the ground better. I am pleased that he 3.19 pm recently went to Cheshire to speak to residents. I am David Rutley (Macclesfield) (Con): It is a pleasure to also pleased and grateful for his meetings with me and serve under your chairmanship, Mr Brady. I am grateful colleagues to hear about our concerns and challenges. to the Backbench Business Committee for securing the As he knows, one key issue is defining what housing is debate, and I congratulate my hon. Friends the Members required in our five-year housing supply. At the moment for Tewkesbury (Mr Robertson) and for St Albans that is holding us back. As my hon. Friend the Member (Mrs Main) and my right hon. Friend the Member for for Congleton pointed out, sites have been identified in Arundel and South Downs (Nick Herbert) on making our draft plan that can be developed. There is a difference sure that we have a debate on such an important subject. of opinion between the councils and the inspector as to The fact that there are so many of us here shows that what the figure should be; that is what needs to be there is a need for a debate, and I am sure that the unblocked so we can move forward. I urge the Minister Minister is taking copious notes. to use his good offices to help resolve the situation and As others have said, the debate is a critical one. It is clarify what the target should be, so that the plan can be about balance: getting the housing supply right—we concluded and unwanted, speculative house building have a growing population, so that is an important can be stopped in the borough. That is a vital priority, priority—and protecting the countryside at the same as I think the Minister knows. time. We need to provide more houses, but also to For all the hard work that has been done to shape the protect our natural assets—and they are assets. Our plan, there are other questions that urgently need an countryside helps to define our communities, making answer. Like many Macclesfield residents I understood them distinctive. It provides agricultural land and draws that we were close to finalising the plan and that its in visitors, which boosts tourism in towns and villages. focus was on housing developments to 2030. I think Those things are valuable assets and need to be protected. that the Minister may be a little surprised to know that I It is important to underline the point that the debate is found out a few months ago that Cheshire East council not about quaint rural traditions threatening to block officers were now under the impression that they had to housing development; it is about economic effects on work towards a planning horizon not of 2030—which the macro-economy and on communities, businesses by most people’s standards is, I think, quite a long time and residents. That is why it is important to make the horizon—but 2050. That has completely slowed down right decisions. the process. How can we have a view and a sense of In east Cheshire we understand that it is a critical purpose in relation to a time horizon of not 17 but matter to get the local plan in place. The move to 37 years? become a unitary authority, and the time taken to The new requirements have major implications, integrate services previously provided by other local particularly for the northern part of the borough. In authorities, initially slowed progress, but we got back communities such as Macclesfield and Poynton, which I on track quickly and a huge amount of work has now am proud to represent, the news led the council to been done to shape the plan. Successive rounds of highlight green-belt land as supposedly “safeguarded public consultation have been undertaken, at pace. Like for development”—not to be confused with safeguarding 179WH Planning and Housing Supply24 OCTOBER 2013 Planning and Housing Supply 180WH it from development, which is very different. The designation former Ministry of Defence land at Whitehill and Bordon; could be applied to large areas such as south-west my hon. Friend the Member for Banbury (Sir Tony Macclesfield, where up to 3,000 houses could be developed. Baldry) spoke about his area’s eco-town, and this is We have all worked hard to ensure that the green belt ours. In the case of Bordon, the development will add around Macclesfield and nearby communities is protected 2,700 homes. East Hampshire also has a very ambitious in the 2030 local plan. The green belt exists to protect self-set target for affordable homes. the communities from urban sprawl from Manchester, In its interim housing statement, in this void period, and it is important for it to be kept that way. The East Hampshire reflects the revised strategic housing Minister will understand the strong local concern— market assessment, or SHMA—I think I am the first including mine—at the proposal to safeguard green belt speaker this afternoon to say that, although I know that “for development” to achieve housing targets for not my hon. Friend the Member for Congleton (Fiona 2030 but 2050. That situation is made even worse by the Bruce) mentioned the SHLAA—the strategic housing fact that there are no exceptional or compelling land availability assessment. The SHMA called for between circumstances, which are a clear requirement in the 500 and 650 homes per annum, and East Hampshire is national planning policy framework. working towards the figure of 582, which is of course in Will the Minister take this opportunity to set the the top half of that range. record straight and tell the House whether showing how In some places, the speculative applications and pre- housing targets for 2050 will be achieved is a requirement application interest shown already exceed the targets in for approval of a local plan? If it is not, will he also the areas and villages concerned for the period until confirm that it will not be necessary to safeguard land 2028, and in my constituency that is especially true in for development, particularly in the green belt, beyond Four Marks, the parish of Medstead, Alton and Liphook. 2030? Macclesfield residents will be grateful for his There has also been significant interest in Petersfield, views on those issues. They will affect green-belt areas where a neighbourhood plan is in development; we that are vital to the fabric of the community, and will expect the referendum on that next year. I suggest to the address the concerns of hundreds of residents who Minister that where a council is making proactive efforts, could become victims of a planning blight that I believe once the number of houses called for in the interim and hope is completely unnecessary. housing statement—in our case—has been reached in a particular area, it ought to be possible to say, “No more.” 3.26 pm A complication is that part of my constituency is in a national park—the relatively newly formed South Downs Damian Hinds (East Hampshire) (Con): It is a great national park—and other parts have special protection pleasure to see you in the Chair, Mr Brady, and to area status, which leaves people who are in neither follow my hon. Friend the Member for Macclesfield feeling somewhat exposed. Weneed a balance of development (David Rutley). I congratulate my hon. Friends the and a balance of community throughout the area. I Members for Tewkesbury (Mr Robertson), and for strongly suggest that the elected local council is best St Albans (Mrs Main), and my right hon. Friend the placed to determine how the balance should be struck, Member for Arundel and South Downs (Nick Herbert), and the interim housing statement seems to be a good on securing this important debate, which is particularly way to express that. In general, residents’ concerns are important to residents of East Hampshire—especially, twofold: first, they are concerned about the general scale at present, residents of Four Marks, the parish of of development and its implications for the character of Medstead, Liphook, Alton, Petersfield and the area in an area; and secondly, they are concerned about the and around Bordon and Whitehill. I want to focus on infrastructure deficit. Already, certain parts have seen two aspects of the issue that my right hon. Friend the significant infrastructure deficit. FourMarks has experienced Member for Arundel and South Downs set out clearly a great deal of development, and needs commensurate and convincingly: the need for recognition of in-progress infrastructure to ensure safety on the main road—the plans; and the insistence on accompanying infrastructure A31—sufficient primary places, and so on. where permissions are granted. The approach is meant to be plan-led, so Ministers Like those of many other areas, our plan was stopped rightly say that the best thing that everybody can do is in its tracks. In our case it was stopped at the stage of get on and make their plans. That is of course correct, the joint core strategy between East Hampshire district but the plan process seems to take inordinate amount of council and the South Downs national park authority, time, from beginning to end, and there must be ways to and we now find ourselves in the void period that many accelerate elements of it. We must recognise that many hon. Members have spoken about, which can last a long councils are not at the end of the process and find time. The concern is that in that long time, until things themselves in this void period. A large proportion of are finalised, there is a risk—we already see the signs—of plan submissions in the first year of the national planning a flood of speculative applications. policy framework were found to be not sound. I therefore I should say that East Hampshire district council is join strongly in the calls to make it explicit that infrastructure not anti-development, and nor am I. There is concern requirements should be met if permission is to be that the average first-time buyer in East Hampshire is granted, the calls for emerging plans to be recognised, 40 years old, and that the average home costs £321,000. and the calls to find ways to speed up the whole process. We also recognise the need for market towns and villages I shall strike a slightly different tone on the overall to have vibrant, diverse communities. If we want to save need for housing. I recognise that we need housing—the what is left of our village pubs and shops, we need Office for National Statistics figure is 232,000 homes people to work in them, and our small primary schools per year—but what is not necessarily well understood is need young families with children to go to them. The that that is not all, or even nearly all, about immigration. council also supports a substantial development on If we strip out future net migration, the projected 181WH Planning and Housing Supply24 OCTOBER 2013 Planning and Housing Supply 182WH

[Damian Hinds] I want to be clear: the High Peak is a great place to live. I am lucky, as are my constituents. We know that requirement is still 149,000: people are living longer; many people would love to live in the High Peak. We are households are smaller, for all sorts of wider social not of the mind that says, “We have our housing and reasons; kids live away at university and have a place at we’re going to pull the ladder up. We’re all right, Jack.” home; hardly anyone has a lodger anymore; and so on. We acknowledge that there is a need for some housing. There are lots of pressures, and they will not go away. My constituents have young children and teenagers. The south-east will over-index on that pressure, and we There are people in their early 20s who want to stay and must accommodate it but also mitigate it. live in the High Peak. There is a housing need, which I I encourage the Minister to work with councillors on touched on in my Adjournment debate last week on the how, on a relatively small scale in our local areas, we can challenges facing rural businesses. We need houses for do more about the conversion of redundant agricultural people to live in, so that they can work in the High buildings; make granny flat conversions easier; work on Peak. No one I have spoken to disputes that there is a empty properties, as my hon. Friend the Member for need for housing. My constituents would accept Tewkesbury said; and take up small-site opportunities, development, provided it was proportionate. as my hon. Friend the Member for Castle Point (Rebecca Recent decisions by local councillors, who, I remind Harris) said clearly. An interesting point in the Portas everyone, are elected by local people, have been overturned report was about the opportunity to concentrate town by the Planning Inspectorate, which is not. That flies in centres. That has the benefit of freeing-up space on the the face of everything that we believe about localism. I relative periphery for residential development. On a have spoken to many residents, who are seeing more bigger scale, there are new towns, but perhaps the applications coming forward, with the threat of ever biggest opportunity of all is the one touched on by my larger developments. In my previous speech on the hon. Friend the Member for Pudsey (Stuart Andrew): subject, I highlighted the area of Harpur Hill and the we should not only build higher-density, in-town living, concerns of its residents’ association. I will not repeat but make it attractive. Some of the most sought after the statistics, because time is short and they are in areas of the country are high-density, which proves that Hansard, but as I said in my previous speech, the it can, in principle, be done. I see that I am out of time, problems facing Harpur Hill are mirrored in other areas Mr Brady, so I will stop there. of my constituency. As the Minister knows, Chapel-en- le-Frith parish council now objects to every significant 3.34 pm planning application, after several applications have Andrew Bingham (High Peak) (Con): I congratulate already been given the nod. If all of them were built, the my hon. Friends on securing this debate. We can tell by size of that small village, where I live, would increase the attendance today, and from our postbags, that the significantly, beyond what many believe the infrastructure subject is of great importance to Members and our could cope with. constituents. It follows on from a 30-minute debate held I could run through a list of applications in different in Westminster Hall some time ago, in which, because parts of my constituency, but we are not at a planning of sheer weight of numbers, the time limit was very meeting today. My constituents are asking questions restrictive. Today we have been given double that limit— about the applications and the method of approval. Are six minutes. they powerless to prevent approvals? Can they at least I spent 12 years on the local council, and planning ensure that there is some sense of proportion? Proportion exercised my residents more than anything else, and as is what they are asking for. I am sure that the Minister an MP, I find a similar situation. The creation of the will respond that local plans should be drawn up, and NPPF has simplified the planning laws, which had planning policy should be defined in documents and become complicated and burdensome. Like many others properly evaluated. My local council has yet to product here today, I supported sending the power to rule on its local plan; indeed, it has delayed its anticipated applications down to local authorities. As a councillor completion. In 2011, the controlling Labour group rejected on the planning committee, I felt many times that we proposals from the Conservative group to use some were rubber-stamping central Government policies on underspend to bring forward brownfield sites. It has development. That was frustrating to me and my residents, now belatedly allocated some extra resources to that. because they believed, as I did when first elected, that Delaying the local plan has created a window of opportunity the local authority was the sole arbiter on applications. for developers. I could easily turn my contribution into a tirade against the Labour group and its management As previous speakers have said, I look forward to a of the local authority. I have met the executive member brave new world under the new NPPF and local plans, to discuss the situation; he has his views and I have where locally elected representatives make the decisions mine. that impact so much on local people, but I, too, am concerned about recent events. My constituency, High I want to deal with the harsh realities of the here and Peak, is the most beautiful in the country, though I am now. No local plan has been completed, and developers biased. I am sure that others will disagree. As I said in are submitting speculative applications time after time— the previous debate, there has been a proliferation of applications that may have been refused in the past. significant applications for development on greenfield They see from previous examples, which I highlighted sites. They have been refused by the local authority’s today, that the Planning Inspectorate appears to be planning committee on perfectly legitimate grounds. unmoved by local representations. I repeat that this is This is not a case of nimbyism at all. The decisions were not nimbyism; my constituents and I are not against met with great approval, and in some cases relief, by development. It is about proportion. A well-constructed local residents, who felt that their views had been represented local plan should bring in proportion, but at the moment by the people for whom they had voted. the Planning Inspectorate does not listen to our views. 183WH Planning and Housing Supply24 OCTOBER 2013 Planning and Housing Supply 184WH

I am pleased that the Minister has agreed to visit the passionately about their own areas. There clearly is a High Peak. I promise him a warm welcome in the major issue across the country. I was pleased that a hillsides. We can have an interesting day. There has been number of their remarks were not based on just being a dearth of houses built in the past few years, and that anti-housing. There was a sound recognition that we has created the shortage facing us today, but I am need more housing, but concern was expressed about concerned that in our eagerness to deal with that, we are the sites that have been identified for building houses. I being too hasty, and will be left to repent at leisure. I was pleased to see a commitment to plan-making and have asked the Minister this question previously, and I place-shaping, because they are an important part of will repeat it today: will he not seek to give more weight the solution to some of the issues that have been raised to emerging plans? I know that that may amount to today. Hon. Members also produced a wish list. I am making up for the shortcomings of the council, but I probably going to add to that a little bit, but I hope not am looking to assist my constituents. too much. I am looking at the clock; time is short, and I could We know that we need more housing, including in go on to several other issues. A consultation on the rural areas. In order to secure a typical mortgage, a latitude in permitted development rights for agricultural rural resident needs to earn £66,000. With the average buildings closed recently. The Peak District national rural income standing at just over £20,000, there clearly park covers a large chunk of my constituency. I value is a problem with affordability. That exists partly as a that national park greatly, as I know the Minister result of insufficient supply. The situation in rural areas does—he has gone on record on this. People are concerned is part of a wider problem. For decades, under successive about that proposal. There was also a consultation on Governments, house building has stayed low relative to catching up on housing deficits, and having to reduce demand. I will hold my hands up to say that the them in the first two or three years. That will cause huge previous Labour Government did not see enough houses problems to local authorities if we are not careful. built, but neither did the previous Conservative I plead with the Minister: listen to what we have all Government. Private house building completions in said today. We are all on a common theme: we need England have been relatively static for more than 30 years, houses. We know that under the previous Government, averaging about 130,000 per annum. That is below the the numbers were woefully low, but let us get some peak average of 180,000 per annum in the 1960s, and proportion. The essence of localism is local decisions well below potential. made by local people. That is not happening in the High Peak, and, from what we have heard today, it does not Mrs Main: The hon. Lady just said that the number appear to be happening in other areas of the country. I of houses being built has been low or static. What about would therefore like some assurance from the Minister the number of permissions? I have not seen anything that something can be done for my constituents. Harold that shows that the number of permissions has been low Wilson once said to Hugh Scanlon, or static. It is just the amount of development that “get your tanks off my lawn”; developers are prepared to get under way. the people of High Peak are saying to developers, “Get your bulldozers off our fields.” Roberta Blackman-Woods: The hon. Lady makes a I look forward to welcoming the Minister to High valid point. We know that a number of sites with Peak. My residents are eager to see him. I hope that he planning permission never end up being developed. The will come soon. It is very cold and high where I live, and point I am trying to make is that we must look seriously we will get a lot of snow soon, so I recommend that he at the housing numbers that we need, particularly as we comes as soon as possible. have a shortage, partly because we were not building enough in the past. Mr Graham Brady (in the Chair): Hon. Members Private completions increased from 2003, with a steady have all been so disciplined in their time-keeping that improvement to 154,000 in 2007. However, they fell we have lots of time for Front Benchers’ responses. with the economic crash to 89,000 in 2012. In contrast, However, I am keen to reserve at least a couple of new affordable homes produced by local councils and minutes at the end for the hon. Member for Tewkesbury housing associations, which averaged more than 130,000 (Mr Robertson) to respond, if he wishes. per annum in the 1950s and ’60s, have seen a steep downward trend since the 1970s. Production has averaged fewer than 30,000 per annum since the mid-1980s, falling 3.41 pm to 13,000 in 2003. There has been some improvement Roberta Blackman-Woods (City of Durham) (Lab): since then, with new completions at 27,000 in 2009 and It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship again, a similar number in 2012, due to the housing stimulus Mr Brady. This debate is primarily for Back Benchers, put in place by the previous Labour Government following so I had intended to keep my remarks fairly short. I the crash. However, the numbers produced are too low. think I should do that and give the Minister lots of There is an ever-growing gap between supply and time. I congratulate the hon. Members for Tewkesbury demand, which means that millions of hard-working (Mr Robertson) and for St Albans (Mrs Main) and the people are increasingly priced out of buying their own right hon. Member for Arundel and South Downs home. Home ownership has declined from its peak in (Nick Herbert) on securing a lively debate on what is 2001—69%—to 64% in 2011. The average house price is clearly a serious issue, given the large number of Members now nine times larger than the average wage. The average present. low-to-middle income household would now have to I hope that hon. Members will forgive me if I do not save for 22 years to accumulate a deposit for the typical go through their contributions individually, because first home, compared with just three years in 1997. that would take up a great deal of time. They spoke So-called second steppers are also being affected, with 185WH Planning and Housing Supply24 OCTOBER 2013 Planning and Housing Supply 186WH

[Roberta Blackman-Woods] acquisition and assembly in accordance with some of the helpful suggestions made in this debate about opening the average age for a second purchase rising to 41, up the land supply market for competition by a larger despite 40% of families saying that their first home is number of people? too small for a growing family. More than 1.1 million families with children, and Mr Graham Brady (in the Chair): The shadow Minister 8 million people in all, are now part of what we are is quite right: it is possible, though not mandatory, for calling generation rent. They are paying private rents the debate to continue until 4.30. that are rising faster than wages and contributing towards a cost of living crisis. They face rip-off letting agent 3.52 pm fees, instability and uncertainty as a result of short-term tenures, and sometimes poor standards and service. TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof StateforCommunities Many want to buy their own home but have little hope and Local Government (Nick Boles): It is a pleasure to of being able to do so. serve under your chairmanship again, Mr Brady. In your other role as the chairman of the 1922 committee, We must address the housing shortage. I absolutely I am sure that you are delighted to see so many of your agree with all the Members who have contributed this flock here. I wish I could pretend that I thought so afternoon that development sites need to be identified many of my hon. Friends were here because I am so by local communities, with a stronger emphasis on popular in the party or because I am a compelling neighbourhood planning and putting consent at the orator, but I recognise that the reason is the level of heart of the planning system. I think that can be helped concern in the communities that they represent and the in a number of ways. I have often paid tribute to the lack of comprehension in those communities about Minister and his predecessors for introducing some of the decisions being made on nearby developments neighbourhood planning. We think that is probably the that matter to them. Those decisions seem to be visited key in the medium and longer term to delivering the on them from on high without explanation. sorts of neighbourhood that we all want. Many hon. Members have asked specific questions. I The issue is not just about housing. I think we will could probably take up all the time until the end of the partly get consent when we stop referring only to housing debate just answering them, although I do not intend to numbers when talking about the issue. People want to do so. Instead, if it is acceptable to you, Mr Brady, and see employment, proper infrastructure and leisure, and to my hon. Friends and other hon. Members, I will try they want to keep their open spaces. The issue is about to address all the issues and see whether I can answer building communities, and we have to talk more about specific questions in doing so. If, by the time we start that. edging towards the close of the debate, there are burning We also need to do something about quality. I know questions that I have missed answering, I will be happy from my constituency that people often get upset about to take interventions to answer them. However, I hope the houses proposed, because they simply look awful: that I will be able to cover most of them. they are too small, or have various features not in I need not start by underlining the scale of the keeping with the local neighbourhood. We need to get housing crisis faced by this country, the extent of the need better at improving the quality of our housing stock. for housing or the grief and hardship that the crisis is That is especially important in rural areas, national visiting on millions of our fellow citizens. My hon. parks, areas of special scientific interest and so on. I am Friend the Member for East Hampshire (Damian Hinds) a bit concerned that the Growth and Infrastructure Act described it eloquently when discussing the average age 2013 reduced some of the existing protections in areas of the first-time buyer and the average house price in his of outstanding natural beauty and national parks. That constituency, and others have referred to the situation is not a good thing; it is a step in the wrong direction. in their constituencies. The hon. Member for City of [Interruption.] I think that hon. Members might think Durham (Roberta Blackman-Woods) set out clearly the that the clock is set for 4 o’clock, but we actually have roots of the crisis and the fact that Governments of all until 4.30. stripes share responsibility for it. I hope that we can Will the Minister consider the Woodland Trust briefing take that as a premise that everybody agrees on. sent to all of us about giving better protection to ancient woodlands and planting many more trees? Does Mr Laurence Robertson: The Minister used the word he intend to monitor the relaxation of permitted “crisis”, but that is not a situation that I recognise. I development rights and use-class order changes to see would be grateful if he went into it in a little more what happens to the quality of buildings in rural areas detail. as well as on our high streets? High streets are not part of this debate, but rural town centres would be relevant Nick Boles: I will just recap some of the figures as well. mentioned by the hon. Member for City of Durham I am looking forward to hearing what the Minister and others. In the past year, the percentage of first-time has to say about the over-reliance on appeals that seems buyers in England who were able to buy a home without to have emerged as a result—probably a temporary their parents’ help fell to its lowest level ever, under one one—of the national planning policy framework having third. Two thirds of all first-time buyers in England last been put in place before local plans were adopted. I am year required a subsidy from their parents. By definition, interested to know whether he has thought about that, that means that they came from a relatively narrow or considered speeding up plan-making to reduce the social group—those from relatively well-off families. reliance on decisions made by inspectors. Does he plan Until we introduced the Help to Buy policy, the opportunity to strengthen the brownfield first policy, which the to become a first-time buyer had been denied to a large NPPF weakened, and does he intend to reform land number of our fellow citizens. 187WH Planning and Housing Supply24 OCTOBER 2013 Planning and Housing Supply 188WH

Another key fact also mentioned by the hon. Member I will, therefore, give him the true figure for homes for City of Durham is that the average age of first-time that have been empty for more than six months, which I buyers has crept up and up, and is now nudging 40 in think we can all agree is probably the right figure for an many parts of the country, although of course there are empty home that could meet somebody’s housing need parts of the country where the crisis is not so acute. It is in the long term. That number is 260,000 for the whole intense within the south-east and the south, but there of England. It has fallen by 41,000 since this Government are also pockets in parts of Yorkshire, and it is just as came into office in 2010. We are spending a great deal of intense elsewhere, around certain big cities. money, and we and local authorities are working hard, to bring those empty homes back into use. It is important Mrs Main rose— to recognise that many—not all, by any means, but many—of those 260,000 are in parts of the country Martin Horwood rose— where demand for housing is not as strong as it once was, not in parts of the country where demand for Nick Boles: If I may finish, we also know that the size housing is great. I do not believe that a Government can of the homes in which families are forced to live has tell people to go and live somewhere with no jobs and fallen steadily for several decades. The number of no future, just because houses have been built there. overcrowded families has risen and the amount of space Empty homes can make a contribution and are doing so in which young people must grow up has fallen for under this Government, but in the scale of need explained several decades for a simple reason: our population has so vividly by so many, they are a small contributor. grown and we have not built enough houses to keep We need to move to the question of brownfield sites. pace with it. If it were possible, everybody in this country would That growth in population has had two main sources. prefer every new house to be built on a brownfield site. One, which is contentious in the House and elsewhere, is We would all love not to develop a single scrap of immigration, which was uncontrolled for a long time. greenfield land if we did not need to. Therefore, the We as a party rightly criticised that, and are now doing question is whether there is enough brownfield land to something to control it. However, it is important to do that. The Campaign to Protect Rural England often remember that the majority—about two thirds—of the bandies about the statistic that 1.5 million homes could growth in population and in the number of households be built on the available brownfield land. I am afraid in the country has resulted not from immigration but that that figure is not entirely a fair representation, from ageing. One way that I ask people to think about it because more than half of that brownfield land is is by considering how many people now are part of already occupied for another use—for example, with a families in which four generations are alive. Quite a lot house or factory on it. In theory, it might make good of them are. It used to be rare to have a great-grandparent sense to use it for converted housing, but the people or great-grandchild in a family; it is now common, currently occupying and using it for another purpose because people are living longer, and they do not all would, by and large, have a view on that: if they own or want to live in the same house. I could go on, but I use the property, they will probably not want to give it know that time is limited. up immediately, and if they did give it up, where would they be employed? Having taken all that out, a large Several hon. Members rose— number of the remaining brownfield sites are in places where demand for new housing is not so intense. In many areas of most intense demand, the number of Nick Boles: I would like not to take interventions on brownfield sites that have not been developed is relatively the argument, as I have heard the argument from hon. small. Members. I will take interventions later if I have not answered the specific questions raised. I reassure hon. Members that nearly 70% of new houses in 2010, the last year for which figures are Martin Horwood: Will the Minister give way on that available, were built on brownfield land. We are still point? building more houses on brownfield land than on greenfield land. We are approaching the point at which the number Nick Boles: No, I will not take interventions on the of brownfield sites that are in the right part of the argument; I will take them on the specific questions country and are vacant and available for housing asked. I have sat here for two hours listening to the development is too small to supply more than a small, arguments from the Opposition, and I would like a brief although significant proportion—nearly 70%, but not moment to develop my argument. more—of our need. Housing need is intense. I accept that my hon. Friend Another subject raised here and elsewhere by many the Member for Tewkesbury (Mr Robertson) does not hon. Members, including my hon. Friend the Member share my view, but many hon. Members do, and there for St Albans (Mrs Main), is the amount of land are a lot of statistics to prove it. How are we going to banking in the country. We all know individual examples solve the problem? My hon. Friend, whom I congratulate of sites that have been bought and for which planning on securing this debate, referred to the country having permission has been given, but on which development 700,000 empty homes, which, he said, should be a has not happened. The question we have to ask is: why priority for meeting the intense need for housing. Although has that happened, what is the scale of that problem I agree with the sentiment, unfortunately his figure does and what contribution would fixing that problem make not give a true picture. The figure of 700,000 homes to solving our intense need? captures every home that is empty right now, including We must first recognise that that is true of many sites every home that is between buyer and seller and every because developers bought them before the financial home in probate. crash, secured planning permission in anticipation of 189WH Planning and Housing Supply24 OCTOBER 2013 Planning and Housing Supply 190WH

[Nick Boles] many school places as are needed.” We do not tell the NHS, “Provide as many GPs as you feel you can afford the economic environment pertaining at the time and, right now”; we say, “Work out how many GPs are frankly, could not raise the money to build out the site needed.” The same is true of housing sites: we tell local or, even if they raised the money to do so, could not authorities, “Work out how many houses will be needed find people to buy the houses. Ultimately, developers in your area over the next 15 years, and then make plans are businesses. Certainly in my party, which so many to provide them.” hon. Members here represent, we believe that businesses need to be free to make investments and bring forward Stuart Andrew rose— projects, but should be forced to complete such projects only if they have a reasonable prospect of getting their Martin Horwood rose— money back and perhaps gaining a small return. That problem grew during the recession not because of Nick Boles: I am happy to give way to my hon. Friend developers’ greedy behaviour, but simply because they the Member for Cheltenham. do not want to build houses if there is nobody to buy them. Martin Horwood: My constituents in places such as That situation led to an expansion in the scale of land Leckhampton and Hatherley do not understand this: banking, but let me tell hon. Members about the current the econometric model is based not so much on need as position, because it has been reduced by the recovery in on demand, which in areas such as mine—and St Albans house building. The latest estimate is that the total and many other constituencies—is practically insatiable, number of units of housing in land banks throughout so we will still have high house prices that are unaffordable England is 500,000, but only half of that is on sites for many first-time buyers in places such as Cheltenham, where building has not begun. From our constituencies, because we have good schools and shops, as well as a we all know that most housing developments of a scale good local environment and good employment levels. If greater than a dozen houses are not built out in one such areas are simply consigned to endless development, year, but sometimes in three or five years, because it is we will lose something very precious to local people and natural to do so. If all the houses were built in one place to the environment. in one year, it would result in a strange development in The problem with the Minister’s scenario is that the which half the houses were sitting empty. That is how issue is not about trying to stop all development—nobody the house building industry works, and unless any hon. has said that—but about wanting local people to be Member in the Chamber wants to nationalise house able to make some difference and have some say. The building, we have to live with that system. economic model for the assessed housing need or demand— Only 250,000 units are on sites that have not been started. That is a significant number, but the point is Mr Graham Brady (in the Chair): Order. I remind the that it covers the whole country, including some places hon. Gentleman that interventions should be short. where demand is not sufficient to pull through supply. The Labour party has proposed to confiscate that land Martin Horwood: Sorry, Mr Brady. The model or from developers, but will such compulsion really solve whatever dictates that number should not be a be-all our housing crisis or lead developers to build more and end-all that nobody can influence. places where we want those houses? I am sure that that might make a contribution, as empty homes may, but I Nick Boles: I want to reassure my hon. Friend that do not believe that it could solve the problem on its the process is not based simply on a measure of demand. own. It is not a matter of sending out a survey to ask people whether they fancy living in West Worcestershire. That On the whole question of local plans and the process is not how it is done; it is done on projections of that local authorities are asked to go through in putting population, of the number of households in which them together, the fundamental basis of the national ageing is taking place and of the historical record and, planning policy framework, about which many hon. therefore, the likely future trend of inward migration. Friends and other hon. Members have been generous, is That is the definition. The immigration figures are that local authorities are in control because they have based on the past record. They are not just plucked out put in place a local plan. Doing the work of producing of the air as the number of people in the whole world a local plan puts the local council, as the representative who would quite like to live in Cheltenham. The model of the community, in control. The local plan has a very is based on an understanding of the pressure of demand simple concept that is very difficult to deliver, which is from people who actually want to come to Cheltenham. that the authority has to provide a five-year land supply They might want to move to Cheltenham to be near a of immediately developable and deliverable sites to job, go to college, or be close to their mum who is meet its objectively assessed housing need. growing old on her own in a flat. I understand that there are concerns. My hon. Friend the Member for Cheltenham (Martin Horwood) referred Martin Horwood indicated dissent. to an econometric model, and other hon. Members have spoken about the various methodologies. It is not Nick Boles: My hon. Friend shakes his head. I am unreasonable, however, for the Government to tell an happy for him to go through the modelling that is the authority, which is representing the people and has a basis on which this is done. I simply say to him that if he duty to serve them, “Work out what’s needed, and make added up all the projections of housing need of all the plans to provide it.” That is what we do with schools. local plans in the country, he would find that it would We do not tell local authorities, “You can provide as add up to a figure that is too low to meet the overall many school places as you feel like”; we say, “Provide as population growth of England. It is not, therefore, the 191WH Planning and Housing Supply24 OCTOBER 2013 Planning and Housing Supply 192WH case that there are these hugely inflated demand figures started to get that going with the introduction of the being put into local plans, which add up to something national planning policy framework. I suggest that most way in excess of what we need; they are too low to meet of them are doing so with all due speed, as is evidenced our universal needs as a nation. Somehow, somewhere, by my local authority, which adopted its local plan on we are not overestimating the need. Monday. My concern, and the concern of many Members, is that the Minister and the Government are not giving Stuart Andrew: In 2001, the population of Leeds was any protection or taking any notice whatever of emerging 715,000, and in the census of 2011, it was 751,000, but local plans. As a consequence, they are not giving any the estimate of the Office for National Statistics said consideration to the efforts by local communities and that it would be 788,000, which is 37,000 more than local councillors to ensure that they have robust local actually happened. If we go on the same figures, Leeds plans. will yet again be overcompensating for a population increase that will not exist, but it will have to have the Nick Boles: I thank my hon. Friend for that. I understand five-year land supply, and to do that, it will have to go what he is saying. It is difficult and painful, especially in into the green belt. How does my hon. Friend marry up an area of high demand, to produce that local plan. that problem that we and our communities face? Many local authorities have been making excellent progress, which is why the number of local plans has risen from Nick Boles: My hon. Friend makes a good argument, about 30% when the national planning policy framework and he has made a good argument generally, which he was passed to more than 50% now, and many more will will have every opportunity to make in the examination be adopted over the next few months. The difficulty is in public. He will be able to say why he thinks that the that there are cases—I am afraid that some of those projections done by his local authority are way out of cases are represented in the Chamber—in which the line with any realistic possibility and to challenge those local plan, despite what the local authority might have projections. He will be able to require the local council said, does not meet the requirements of the Localism to demonstrate to the inspector the reasons it needs to Act 2011 and of the national planning policy framework, supply those numbers, which cannot be that it is ambitious and does not provide a five-year land supply. or that it is going for growth. If it has no good arguments or good evidence, there will be every reason for him to In some cases, that is because local authorities put say that it is a plan to meet not need but ambition and too many eggs in one basket. They identify one big site dreams, which is a great and lovely thing but not what to which they attach a lot of hope value, and which plans are meant to do. might make a fantastic development, but which, in A great many of my hon. Friends are concerned reality, has no immediate prospect of being developed. because they see that, in the absence of a local plan that It therefore cannot count as a site in a local plan. has been fully adopted after an examination in public Sometimes, they make estimates that a site will build by an inspector, many decisions are being made that out over two years, when it clearly will not do so in less local people are not content with and their local authorities than five. It is not surprising, therefore, that the inspector have opposed. It will be of no reassurance to them, but sometimes says, “I’m sorry, but that is not a robust it is interesting that there is not a single person who has plan, because the sites you have identified will not spoken in this debate who is from an area that has a deliver what you say they will deliver in the established recently adopted local plan. There is a reason for that: time frame.” Then he asks the local authority to go once there is a recently adopted local plan, the authority back and revise the plan. That is happening in many is then in the driving seat. It may well have gone local authorities represented in this Chamber, and is through a process, as my hon. Friends the Members for causing some of the frustration. Cheltenham, for Tewkesbury and for West Worcestershire (Harriett Baldwin) have—[Interruption.] No, let me Harriett Baldwin: What, in the Minister’s view, is the finish my sentence. It may well have gone through the appropriate time between a council democratically agreeing process of putting together that plan, which would be a local plan and the plan finally becoming set in stone, painful because it requires someone to carry out the as there is a very protracted period of inspection by a contentious job of identifying the sites. Once the plan is scarce national supply of inspectors? in place, that is the point at which local authority decisions—[Interruption.] I hear lots of rumblings. If I could just finish the argument, I promise to take some Nick Boles: In general—I cannot comment on any more interventions. At that point, the authority will particular case—one would hope that that would happen find that appeals are not going against it. I accept that in about nine months. If it could be six, that would be there is a certain amount of scepticism about the figures, great. It certainly should not be more than 12. In some but I am giving Members the facts. In 2012-13, the cases—I am not suggesting that it is happening in West number of planning appeals in which the inspector Worcestershire—the inspector, rather than saying that backed the local council and rejected the appeal was the plan will not meet the requirements, says that the 67%. In 2011-12, it was 68%, and so far this year it has authority needs to do a bit more work on it and then been 67%. In two thirds of all appeals, the inspector is suspends the plan. That can be a good thing, because backing local decisions, because the council has made we do not want to see a lot of good work thrown away local plans that meet the requirements, so it can be because one part of the plan has not been properly trusted to make its decisions. completed. That is sometimes what causes it to be delayed beyond the time frame. If everything is in order, it should be done within six to nine months. Sir Tony Baldry: The Minister knows that, for historic reasons, almost half of all local planning authorities in England do not have an up-to-date local plan. They Mrs Main rose— 193WH Planning and Housing Supply24 OCTOBER 2013 Planning and Housing Supply 194WH

Nick Boles: There are many questions that I have not plan beyond 15 years. So, anybody who is suggesting yet answered, and there are only so many minutes left. I that there is any requirement to safeguard land or wrap want to come on to the point of prematurity that some it up in wrapping paper and ribbons for the future Members have raised. There is a difficult balance to be development between 2030 and 2050 is getting it wrong. struck. One extreme would be to say that it does not There is no reason for it and my hon. Friend can knock matter how early stage a local plan is; as soon as an that suggestion straight back to wherever it came from. authority has started on a local plan, the draft policies, Regarding help for authorities, I will make an offer to which have not yet been examined, consulted on or everyone here in Westminster Hall who has an authority tested, should determine decisions. That is at one end. I that is having difficulty resolving the final objections to understand that no one is suggesting that it should be at a plan that is still in draft form. It is that I am very that extreme end. At the other end, we say that no happy to ask officials in my Department and—perhaps weight should be accorded to a plan until it has absolutely even more usefully—the recently retired chief inspector finished the process. and another recently retired very senior inspector to The balance that we have put out in the draft guidance meet those authorities to help them, in a sense, to is that once a local plan has been submitted for understand what are the practical things they have to do examination—not completed or passed—it should carry to get the plan to a point where it can pass examination. significant weight if there are no substantial unresolved I fully understand that there is a frustration, namely objections to parts of it. A neighbourhood plan has to that people cannot negotiate with an inspector, because pass a referendum, which is a big moment at which it an inspector is basically like a judge; it would be like might fail, and it starts to acquire weight when it has someone negotiating with a judge in court as to whether been presented to the local authority for what is called they will be found guilty or not. The inspectors cannot the local authority publicity period. I accept that both negotiate, but that is why we have created a resource those stages are towards the end of the process. However, within the Department that is able to provide that the difficulty if we try to move them earlier in the practical support, and I am very happy to offer it to process is that—I promise you—developers will go to Cheshire East and to other boroughs where it would be court, they will seek the judge’s interpretation and they necessary. will say, “This plan hasn’t even been consulted on. It hasn’t even been tested by examination. How can it be Several hon. Members rose— the basis for a decision, when in every other way this proposed development meets all of the policies in the national planning policy framework?”That is the argument Nick Boles: I will move on to the infrastructure point; that they will make, and indeed it is the argument they I am happy to take more interventions after that. That are making in cases right now. is because my right hon. Friend the Member for Arundel and South Downs (Nick Herbert), who spoke so Therefore, it is not simply in the gift of Ministers to passionately and so persuasively, as he has done so move that decision point through guidance; we cannot many times before, on this subject, raised a particular do that. We have to put it at a point that the courts will point about a commitment to make a clearer reference find reasonable as an interpretation of the requirements to the need for infrastructure to be planned in planning for a plan to be sound and robust. We have set it where guidance. we have because we think that is the most reasonable position, but I am very happy to invite colleagues here When my right hon. Friend raised that point with me in Westminster Hall today to meet my officials to discuss before this debate, I was very concerned that I had whether there is a way of finding another time frame failed to deliver on a commitment made on the Floor of that would stand up in court. However, I would simply the House, and that that was something I needed to share with them the view that the bar that would stand correct. I will not suggest to him that it is impossible up in court is a very high one, and I have concluded that to improve on what we have done, but I would like to the position that we have outlined in the guidance is the reassure him that my officials—being marvellous officials— one that will not only stand up in court but provide put in something that addressed the concern that he some protection for those plans that have reached an raised and the commitment that I made; it just may not advanced stage of development. be something that he considers to be sufficient. I will quote from the new draft planning guidance, because it is important that we all understand it. It says: David Rutley: Notwithstanding the point that the “Local Plans set out a vision and a framework for the future Minister is making, can he confirm that the planning development of the area, addressing needs and opportunities in horizon currently is to 2030 and any talk of moving to relation to housing, the economy, community facilities and 2050 is for the birds, to use a technical term? Would he infrastructure”. also use his good offices, given that there is good That is the introductory phase. Then it says specifically: will—particularly in Cheshire East—to conclude local plans, to bring the requisite expertise to enable us to get “The Local Plan should aim to meet the objectively assessed…infrastructure needs of the area”. over this hurdle as quickly as possible? Then it says something even more specifically, which directly addresses the point of whether it is possible to Nick Boles: I am very grateful to my hon. Friend for ensure that a development only goes ahead once the reminding me of two very important specific questions, necessary infrastructure has been put in place, and only to which it is a great pleasure—and a rare one—to be after that necessary infrastructure has been put in place. able to give an answer that I hope is satisfactory. The We have made direct provision answer to the first question is that there is nothing in the Localism Act 2011, in the NPPF or in any aspect of “that a condition”— Government planning policy that requires someone to that is, a planning condition— 195WH Planning and Housing Supply24 OCTOBER 2013 Planning and Housing Supply 196WH

“may be used to prohibit ‘development authorised by the planning However, as I say, I am very happy to invite my right permission or other aspects linked to the planning permission...until hon. Friend to meet officials to explore this issue further. a specified action has been taken (such as the provision of supporting infrastructure).’.” I will conclude. I am sorry if I have not answered everybody’s questions. That is the element where we have attempted to make it clear that planning authorities can very reasonably 4.27 pm say, “Yes, we’ll pass this planning application, yes, we Mr Laurence Robertson: Thank you for calling me to will consent, but it can only go ahead and be built out speak, Mr Brady. It is a pleasure to serve under your once that infrastructure has been put in place.” I believe chairmanship, and to have served under that of Mr Havard that the use of conditions is the right way to do it, as earlier. well as the plan making that makes the broader plans for infrastructure. However, I am very happy to invite I thank all the Members who have attended Westminster my right hon. Friend to meet my officials and to come Hall today and contributed to this very lively debate. I up with a better solution if one can be found that thank the Minister for his attendance and his answers. addresses his concerns. I am not completely satisfied, as he would imagine, by some of the answers he has given, particularly about this so-called “housing crisis”. He said that we are an Nick Herbert: I am grateful to my hon. Friend the ageing population. Of course we will age during the Minister and I will have a look at the specific provisions next 20 years, but we aged during the past 20 years as that he says address the concern that we raised last well, so I am not convinced that the projections should December, and that he committed to bring forward; I jump up so much because of that single factor. Of thank him for that. Can he assure me that the proposals course, families go their own separate ways and people in the guidance in relation to infrastructure will enable a unfortunately have divorced, but again I am not aware local authority, in drawing up a plan, to adjust the that the projection will go up in the way that it would housing number that it sets, such that the number may need to in order to justify the additional housing figures be lower than the strategic housing market assessment that are being talked about. provides, because of infrastructure considerations? The Minister was perhaps talking about people being unable to buy houses, and ignoring the financial constraints. Mr Graham Brady (in the Chair): Before the Minister In my experience, it is not necessarily that the houses replies, I remind him that we only have three and a half are not there. We went through a situation where some minutes left, and I am keen to allow the Member lenders were lending 125% of the house price, which responsible for securing the debate—the hon. Member had the effect of inflating those house prices. Now we for Tewkesbury (Mr Robertson)—to reply as well. have the opposite, where there is a very tight lending policy, and that is making it difficult for people to Nick Boles: If you will forgive me a very scrappy borrow. I accept the philosophy of price elasticity, of finish, Mr Brady, I will answer the question, and then I course—demand and supply—but there is more to it will sit down to allow my hon. Friend the Member for than that, so I am a little concerned that the Government Tewkesbury to speak. are still clinging to the “housing crisis” phrase. Very specifically, development must be sustainable, I will rattle through one or two final points. I am very and sustainable in many ways. Infrastructure is one of much in favour of neighbourhood plans, of course, but the ways in which it needs to be sustainable. However—the they have to be in conformity with the local plan, so however is quite important—to say that the current they are not actually that valuable. infrastructure is insufficient to support a level of My final point is the one raised by my right hon. development that otherwise would be “sustainable” in Friend the Member for Arundel and South Downs other senses of the word is not quite enough, because (Nick Herbert) about infrastructure. Does that mean someone has to be able to say that it is incapable of that numbers can be reduced? What about the green being made sufficient to support that level of development; belt? What about flood risk areas? All these provide in other words, that the local authority either could not great difficulties, certainly in my constituency, to coming bring the financial resources together or could not up with the sort of numbers that are being proposed by physically and geographically make arrangements to the Government— make that development sustainable. Just to say, “The road is too narrow; we can’t do anything more there,” is Mr Graham Brady (in the Chair): Order. not quite enough. To say, “The road is too narrow and can never be widened, because it’s between two ancient 4.30 pm forests that have the highest status,” could be sufficient Sitting adjourned without Question put (Standing Order and that tends to be where the debates take place. No.10(13)).

21WS Written Statements24 OCTOBER 2013 Written Statements 22WS

I am placing this document and the call for evidence Written Statements in the Libraries of both Houses. The call for evidence will also be available at: www.gov.uk/review-of-the-balance- Thursday 24 October 2013 of-competences.

ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS

ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE Agriculture and Fisheries Council

The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Balance of Competences Review Rural Affairs (Mr Owen Paterson): The Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, my hon. Friend the Member for Camborne and Redruth The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change (George Eustice) represented the UK at the Agriculture (Mr Edward Davey): I wish to inform the House that, and Fisheries Council on 17 October in Luxembourg. further to the Foreign Secretary’s oral statement launching Richard Lochhead MSP also attended. the review of the balance of competences in July 2012 The Council reached an agreement on fishing and the written statements on the progress of the review opportunities in the Baltic region for 2014. The Commission in October 2012, and May 2013, the Department of praised the Baltic member states as both providing Energy and Climate Change has today published its call a good example of regionalisation and sustainable for evidence for the energy report. management of stocks, in line with the spirit of the reformed common fisheries policy. This report, which will be completed by the summer 2014, will focus on the application and effect of the There was an exchange of views on the European EU’s competence in relation to energy. It will include Union-Norway annual fisheries agreement. This agreement the internal energy market and its contribution to the is of vital importance to the UK fleet and the UK single market and growth; security of energy supply, Government pressed for a 2014 North sea cod total indigenous resources and energy infrastructure allowable catch (TAC) which was in line with the science, development; sustainability and energy efficiency measures, maintaining current effort levels (the number of days renewables and carbon capture and storage; the EU fishermen are allowed to spend at sea) and for developing external energy dimension; and nuclear and Euratom. and expanding our discard-free catch quota schemes in the North sea. The report will not include climate change aspects of In an exchange of views on the EU’s priorities for the the Department’s work, international climate change annual meeting of the International Commission for negotiations, the reduction of collective EU member the Conservation of Atlantic Tunas (ICCAT) next month, state greenhouse gas emissions via burden-sharing the UK supported continued protection of bluefin tuna arrangements and the EU emissions trading system. stocks and argued for increasing the protection of vulnerable These issues will be covered in the Environment and shark species. The Commission agreed with the UK Climate Change report due to be published this winter. point that, ICCAT was improving its performance and The energy call for evidence period will be open for that this was finally bringing results. They promised to 12 weeks and close on 15 January 2014. My Department redouble their efforts to protect vulnerable sharks and will draw together the evidence and policy analysis into to secure a ban on shark finning. a first draft which will subsequently go through a process Under AOB Ireland raised the north-east Atlantic of scrutiny before publication next summer. mackerel management and coastal state negotiations. We will take a rigorous approach to the collection The UK argued that new scientific advice could provide and analysis of evidence. The call for evidence sets out an opportunity to achieve a breakthrough in the long- the scope of the report and includes a series of broad running dispute with Iceland. However, a deal should questions on which contributors are asked to focus. The not be at any cost, should not contain new access evidence received (subject to the provisions of the Data concessions and Norway must be a full and equal Protection Act) will be published alongside the final partner in any agreement. There was widespread support report and will be available on: www.gov.uk/review-of- for the Commissioner’s approach of moving towards a the-balance-of-competences. We will pursue an active fair and equitable solution that must involve Norway. engagement process, consulting with departmental Select Committees, the devolved Administrations, businesses HOME DEPARTMENT and civil society in order to obtain evidence to contribute to our analysis of the issues. Our EU partners and the National DNA Database Ethics Group EU institutions will also be invited to contribute evidence to the review. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the The resulting report is intended to be a comprehensive, Home Department (James Brokenshire): My noble Friend thorough and detailed analysis of EU competence the Minister for Criminal Information, Lord Taylor of for environment and climate change and what this Holbeach, has today made the following written ministerial means for the UK. It will aid our understanding of the statement: nature of our EU membership and will provide a I am pleased to announce the publication of the sixth annual constructive and serious contribution to the wider European report of the National DNA Database Ethics Group on 24 October debate about modernising, reforming and improving 2013. The group was established on 25 July 2007 to provide the EU. The report will not produce specific policy Ministers with independent ethical advice on the operation and recommendations. practice of the national DNA database (NDNAD). 23WS Written Statements24 OCTOBER 2013 Written Statements 24WS

I welcome the points raised in the report about the implementation May 2013 design refinement consultation, and the decision of the Protection of Freedoms Act, and the consideration given to reissue safeguarding directions for the phase 1 route in the report to a number of important issues around the ethical to reflect these additional tunnels. operation of the NDANAD. In July 2013, following consultation, the Secretary of The ethics group’s annual report can be viewed on the website of the independent forensic science regulator and I am arranging State for Transport issued safeguarding directions to for a copy to be placed in the Library of the House. local planning authorities (LPAs) along most of the route of phase 1 of HS2, between London and the West Midlands. Safeguarding directions protect the route of DNA and Fingerprint Databases HS2 from conflicting development. At that time we were consulting separately on fourteen design refinements on the phase 1 route. In particular, the Secretary of The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the State proposed that there should be bored tunnels rather Home Department (James Brokenshire): My hon. Friend than a surface route at both Northolt and Bromford. As the Minister for Criminal Information, Lord Taylor of the nature of safeguarding in these areas would be very Holbeach, has today made the following written ministerial different depending on the option chosen it was decided statement: to delay safeguarding these areas until the Secretary of The Government have now delivered their commitment to State had reached the final decisions on the tunnel reform the retention of DNA and fingerprint records by removing proposals following consultation. innocent people from the databases, and adding the guilty. Following careful consideration of the responses to 1,766,000 DNA profiles taken from innocent adults and children the consultation, I can confirm the proposed changes to have been deleted from the national DNA database. replace the surface sections of track at Northolt and 1,672,000 fingerprint records taken from innocent adults and Bromford with bored tunnels. In these locations tunnels children have been deleted from the national fingerprint database. 7,753,000 DNA samples containing sensitive personal biological are appropriate on the basis of cost, risk and environmental material, no longer needed as a DNA profile has been obtained, effects. have been destroyed. 480,000 of the DNA profiles removed as We are taking these decisions now in order to provide part of this programme were taken from children. certainty to property owners in these areas as soon as At the same time, 6,800 convicted murderers and sex offenders, practicable. Decisions on the remaining 12 refinements not on the database under the previous Government, have had to the route will be published soon. their DNA taken and added to the database. These records will be The purpose of safeguarding is not to prevent kept permanently, as will those of every convicted adult on the development along the route of HS2, but to ensure that database, to ensure our databases remain a powerful tool for fighting crime. any development that does take place is consistent with our plans for the railway. LPAs to whom safeguarding Now that our DNA and fingerprint databases meet the requirements set out in part 1, chapter 1 of the Protection of directions apply are required to consult HS2 Ltd on Freedoms Act 2012, these provisions will be commenced on new planning applications in respect of land that is 31 October. within the safeguarded area. The national DNA database (NDNAD) annual report for Safeguarding is also a trigger for statutory blight 2012-13 was today published on the Home Office website, providing procedures under the Town and Country Planning Act information for the public on the routine operation and effectiveness 1990. We do not expect that many properties within the of the database, and on the programme to delete innocent people newly safeguarded area will be required for construction in preparation for the Protection of Freedoms Act. This report is of the railway because the route will be in tunnel. an important part of the Government’s aim for transparency and public confidence in the use of DNA. However, some land on the surface is affected, particularly for construction purposes, and owners of this land may The figures in the first part of the report show the size of the NDNAD to 31 March 2013, part way through work to delete be able to take advantage of the statutory blight provisions. DNA profiles in line with the Protection of Freedoms Act. The command paper “The Government Response to Following the deletions described above, the NDNAD will now the Design Refinement Consultation: Decisions and be considerably smaller. Part 2 of the report provides more Safeguarding Directions for Northolt and Bromford” is detailed information on these deletions. available at: The report is available from: https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/hs2- www.gov.uk/government/organisations/home-office/series/dna- design-refinement-consultation. database-documents. Copies of the Command Paper are available in the A copy will be placed in the Library of the House. House Library.

Haulage: Road Tank Vehicle Compliance TRANSPORT The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport HS2 (Mr Robert Goodwill): The Department for Transport is working with the Health and Safety Executive (HSE), the Department for Energy and Climate Change (DECC) The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport and industry to resolve an issue around the incorrect (Mr Robert Goodwill): Today I am publishing the Command certification of a particular model of fuel tanker in Paper “The Government Response to the Design operation in the UK. Refinement Consultation: Decisions and Safeguarding The tankers, manufactured in South Africa, and certified Directions for Northolt and Bromford”. This document as meeting international standards by Bureau Veritas sets out the decisions to tunnel the HS2 phase 1 route at (SA), were first imported into the UK in 2006. Regrettably, Northolt and Bromford, in light of the responses to the they are not in full compliance with internationally-agreed 25WS Written Statements24 OCTOBER 2013 Written Statements 26WS regulations—the European agreement concerning the fuel. Some of these tankers have been on the road for international carriage of dangerous goods by road— over seven years and collectively they have travelled “ADR”) and remedial action is being taken to resolve millions of miles without a serious incident. We are not the issue. complacent about the risks and it is important that this The Department has an ongoing dialogue with industry remedial work is carried out as soon as is practical. This to discuss proposals to replace or modify the tankers would involve tankers over six years old being taken out according to a schedule that ensures security of fuel of service first, with modifications on newer models to supply while maintaining safety. Around 230 of the allow a staged withdrawal of these vehicles over subsequent tankers are in operation in Great Britain and account months. Some haulage firms have already placed, in for around 12% of the fleet of vehicles delivering road total, orders for about 100 new tankers.

219W Written Answers24 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 220W

Hugh Robertson: The Foreign and Commonwealth Written Answers to Office regularly receives reports about the situation of the Baha’i in Iran from a wide-range of sources. The Questions most recent report of the UN Special Rapporteur on the Situation of Human Rights in Iran highlights a worrying escalation of the systematic persecution of Thursday 24 October 2013 Bahai’s in Iran, including their arbitrary detention and torture. I call again on the Government of Iran to end human rights abuses perpetrated against the Baha’i and other religious minorities. FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE Maldives China Karen Lumley: To ask the Secretary of State for Tom Blenkinsop: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what his latest Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent assessment of the situation in the Maldives is. [172040] assessment he has made of human rights in China. [171968] Mr Swire: As outlined in the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs’ statement of 19 Mr Swire: We published our quarterly human rights October 2013, the British Government is deeply dismayed report update, giving our latest assessment of human by further delays to the Maldives presidential elections. rights in China, on 17 October There is currently uncertainty over when the electoral www.hrdreport.fco.gov.uk process will be resumed. As the Secretary of State stated, We welcome recent announcements made by Chinese leaders regarding reform in several areas including anti- ‘continuing challenges to prevent elections taking place will be seen as nothing less than an attempt to frustrate the democratic corruption and rule of law and the recent announcement process.’ that the Re-education Through Labour system will be abolished. However, we remain concerned about restrictions We are concerned that further delays could result in on freedom of expression, freedom of religion, the rule damage to Maldives international reputation and economy, of law, minority rights and the treatment of individual despite the best efforts of the Maldives Elections human rights defenders. We encourage China to lift the Commission to get the process back on track. barriers that still remain with regards to ratification of The UK, with our international partners, has offered the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights. support to the process throughout, as well as by sending We believe dialogue with the Chinese Government on electoral observers. We will continue to monitor the these issues is the best way to help bring about positive situation closely, and to urge all parties to act in the change. Ministers and officials are consistent in raising interests of Maldives and work to strengthen democracy their concerns on human rights in public and in private in that country. It is important that the Elections with China at the highest political levels, and jointly Commission, as an independent body, are given the with our international partners. We most recently raised space needed to make preparations for elections. our concerns about human rights issues on 16 October Telephone Services with the Chinese authorities. We are seeking to agree dates for the next Human Rights Dialogue with the Chinese Government. Mike Weatherley: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what geographic Tom Blenkinsop: To ask the Secretary of State for telephone number his Department advertises for use by Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent the general public. [171892] discussions he has had with his counterpart in China on the use of organs taken from executed prisoners. Mr Lidington: The Foreign and Commonwealth Office [171971] advertises London telephone numbers for use by the general public on gov.uk/fco. Local numbers for many Mr Swire: I refer the hon. Member to my previous of our overseas posts can also be found there. In addition answer to the hon. Member for East Londonderry the Legalisation Office advertises a non-geographic UK (Mr Campbell) dated 22 April 2013, Official Report, wide hotline number. column 633W. Our position has not changed. A quarterly update to the human rights report was published on 17 October and can be found at: COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT www.hrdreport.fco.gov.uk Council Tax: Arrears Iran Hilary Benn: To ask the Secretary of State for Jonathan Lord: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government how many people Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent reports have been in council tax arrears since April 2013; and he has received of patterns of violence perpetrated what the total amount of such arrears is. [172290] against the Baha’i community in Iran; and what assessment his Department has made of the level of threat to Brandon Lewis: I refer the right hon. Member to my members of the Iranian Baha’i community. [172211] answer of 17 October 2013, Official Report, column 866W. 221W Written Answers24 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 222W

Empty Property: Shops In other cases, Ofcom rules require that suppliers should make sure that terms relating to charges for Nic Dakin: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities itemised and paper billing are presented to customers and Local Government what recent estimate he has up front when entering a contract and are clear, transparent made of high street vacancy rates. [900688] and easily accessible. Generally, charges for paper bills from the main providers are about £1.50 to £2.50 a Brandon Lewis: My Department does not collect or month. publish data relating to high street vacancy rates. There Telephone Services are several commercial sources of shop vacancy rates data available, including from the Local Data Company Mike Weatherley: To ask the Secretary of State for and Springboard, who publish overall trends in the Culture, Media and Sport what her Department’s public domain. policy is on the use of geographical telephone numbers to allow the public to contact her Department. [172269]

CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT Mrs Grant: DCMS does not have a policy; all our numbers are 020. Betting Shops

Mr Lammy: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, PRIME MINISTER Media and Sport if she will bring forward legislative proposals to prohibit single-staffing of betting shops. Oil: Scotland [900673] Mr Watson: To ask the Prime Minister what meetings Mrs Grant: Like any workplace, betting premises he has had with representatives from the oil import and must operate within the requirements of the Health and distribution companies with regard to increasing the Safety at Work Act and the Management of Health and amount of oil imported into Scotland; and if he will Safety at work Regulations 1999. In addition, powers to make a statement. [R] [172250] prohibit single-staffing in betting shops already reside with local authorities who can impose specific licence The Prime Minister: Details of my meetings and conditions at an individual premises if there is evidence those of my ministerial colleagues with external that single-staffing poses a risk to the licensing objectives organisations are published on a quarterly basis. Details set out in the Gambling Act. The Government therefore can be accessed on the gov.uk website. has no plans to bring forward additional legislative proposals at this time. NORTHERN IRELAND Broadband: East Riding North-South Review Sir Greg Knight: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport what funding her Department Ms Ritchie: To ask the Secretary of State for has granted in 2013 to help deliver or improve rural Northern Ireland (1) what steps she is taking with her broadband in East Yorkshire. [171617] Irish counterpart to ensure the completion of the North-South Review; and if she will make a statement; Mr Vaizey: Broadband Delivery UK signed a grant [172239] agreement with the East Riding of Yorkshire project for (2) what recent discussions she has had with her Irish £5,570,000 on the 16 September 2013. counterpart on the North-South Review. [172243]

Telecommunications: Billing Mrs Villiers: I understand that a review as set out in paragraph 19 of Annex A of the St Andrews Agreement Justin Tomlinson: To ask the Secretary of State for is still taking place. The conduct of the review is a Culture, Media and Sport what discussions she has had matter for the Northern Ireland Executive and the Irish with Ofcom on preventing broadband, media and Government. mobile telephone companies from charging vulnerable customers for receiving billing and statements through the post. [172108] HOME DEPARTMENT Mr Vaizey: The Secretary of State has not discussed Asylum: Syria with Ofcom measures aimed at preventing broadband, media and mobile telephone companies from charging Fiona O’Donnell: To ask the Secretary of State for vulnerable customers for receiving billing and statements the Home Department what recent discussions she has through the post. However, a range of measures exist to had with her European counterparts on establishing a protect vulnerable consumers, in particular, from charges co-ordinated European resettlement programme for associated with paper billing and statements. For example, the most vulnerable refugees from the Syrian conflict. across the telecoms sector, blind or visually impaired [170594] consumers who have requested paper bills in an accessible format such as large print and Braille, and consumers Mr Harper: The Government shares the deep concerns on social tariffs such as BT Basic and in receipt of of other member states regarding the continuing certain means-tested benefits, are not charged for paper humanitarian crisis in Syria. However, the Government bills. has no current plans to resettle Syrian refugees. We continue 223W Written Answers24 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 224W to believe that the EU’s immediate priority should be to Any applicant can apply for a visit visa at any post in provide humanitarian assistance to displaced people in the world. When the VAC in Syria was closed, Amman partnership with neighbouring countries and the UN (Jordan) and Beirut (Lebanon) were designated as the High Commissioner for Refugees. The UK has now VACs where Syrian nationals could apply for all categories increased its pledge for the Syrian relief effort to £500 of entry clearance. million. This represents the UK’s largest ever response In the latest published figures (for decisions made in to a humanitarian crisis. August 2013), both posts were meeting their customer We continue to discuss the Syrian crisis with our service standards. European partners and the Minister for Security reiterated http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/visas-immigration/ our position at the recent Justice and Home Affairs general-info/processing-times/#resultTableAnchor Council on 8 October. My officials closely monitor application rates globally and staffing is reinforced if demand affects our ability Christopher Tappin to meet our published customer service standards.

Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for the Ibrahim Magag Home Department what estimate she has made of the cost to the public purse of the extradition of Diana Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for the Christopher Tappin. [170287] Home Department what recent assessment she has made of the threat posed to the UK by Ibrahim Mr Harper [holding answer 10 October 2013]: The Magag. [172253] Secretary of State for the Home Department has not made any estimate of the cost of this particular case. James Brokenshire: We do not routinely comment on It has been estimated that the average cost to execute intelligence matters. a European arrest warrant is £20,000. Work is currently under way to estimate the average cost of a Part 2 Illegal Immigrants (non-EU) case. Sarah Teather: To ask the Secretary of State for the Detainees: Young People Home Department if she will publish the responses received by her Department to the consultation on Jonathan Ashworth: To ask the Secretary of State for tackling illegal immigration in privately rented the Home Department how many people have been accommodation. [171277] detained by the UK Border Agency from 1 October 2012 to 31 March 2013 who were subsequently found Mr Harper [holding answer 18 October 2013]: A to be under the age of 18. [170686] response to the consultation was published on 10 October 2013. It is available for downloading on the Government’s Mr Harper: It is not possible to provide the number website: of individuals detained as adults who were subsequently www.gov.uk found to be under the age of 18 without the examination with a range of other documentation relating to the of individual records at disproportionate cost. introduction of the Immigration Bill on the same day. We have radically changed the immigration system to The response summarises the responses received to the ensure that the welfare of children is at the heart of the consultation, but does not entail publishing the many decision and removals process. On occasion, new hundreds of responses received. information may come to light which indicates that a person we are treating as an adult is in fact a minor. In Illegal Immigrants: Employment these exceptional circumstances, we would seek to release them to social services at the earliest opportunity, pending Andrew Percy: To ask the Secretary of State for the an age assessment. Home Department what steps her Department is taking to increase the collection of fines from employers of Entry Clearances: Syria illegal migrant workers. [170888]

Stephen Doughty: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Harper [holding answer 15 October 2013]: The the Home Department what recent discussions she has Immigration Bill, introduced to Parliament on 10 October, had with the Secretary of State for Foreign and proposes some specific steps to make it easier to enforce Commonwealth Affairs on (a) the closure of the visa the recovery of unpaid civil penalty debts in the civil service in Syria, (b) the visa application centres in courts. Turkey now accepting applications for entry clearance In the meantime, our officials are active members of from Syrian nationals and (c) additional support to be a cross Government effort looking at driving down the given to the visa application centres in Turkey in light levels of unpaid debt and so have some initiatives in of this policy change. [171402] train to drive up levels of payment in advance of the enactment of new legislation. Mr Harper [holding answer 18 October 2013]: My officials are in regular contact with colleagues from the Immigrants: English Language Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) regarding the current situation in Syria and the closure of the Visa Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State Application Centre (VAC) for security reasons remains for the Home Department what current level of English under review. language proficiency is required for those arriving on 225W Written Answers24 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 226W

(a) ICT Long term staff, (b) ICT Short term staff, (c) Published figures on people held are those detained ICT Graduate Trainee and (d) ICT Skills Transfer in the United Kingdom solely under Immigration Act visas; and what such levels will be following the upcoming powers, including short term holding facilities and pre implementation of changes to immigration rules announced departure accommodation in addition to immigration on 6 September 2013. [170397] removal centres but excluding those in police cells, Prison Service establishments, short term holding rooms Mr Harper [holding answer 14 October 2013]: The at ports and airports (for less than 24 hours), and those changes in Immigration Rules laid on 6 September (HC recorded as detained under both criminal and immigration 628) came into force on 1 October. powers and their dependants. Before that date, the only English language requirement for Intra-Company Transfers (ICTs) was for those in Immigration the ICT Long Term Staff category applying to extend their stay in the UK beyond three years. This was set at Mr Ward: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home a basic user standard—level A1 on the Council of Department whether security checks for further leave Europe’s Common European Framework for Language to remain applications are made to (a) UK authorities Learning. or (b) external authorities. [172131] From 1 October, that language requirement has been removed, so there are now no English language Mr Harper [holding answer 23 October 2013]: Security requirements for ICT categories. This provides additional checks for further leave to remain applications are made flexibility for employers and reflects ICT’s’ temporary to UK authorities. status. Since 2010 we have reformed the ICT route so that it is now time-limited, and we have brought in a Immigration: Greater London cooling-off period to ensure that migrants do not undertake repeated ICT periods in the UK. For these reasons, English language is less relevant than it is for those Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home intending to migrate to the UK permanently. Department how many immigration raids were carried out on businesses in (a) Rupert Street, (b) Wardour Immigrants: Syria Street, (c) Dansey Place, (d) Macclesfield Street, (e) Gerrard Street, (f) Horse and Dolphin Yard, (g) Gerrard Mr Andrew Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Place, (h) Newport Place, (i) Little Newport Street, (j) the Home Department how many people with Syrian Leicester Place, (k) Leicester Court, (l) Leicester Street nationality are currently held in each immigration and (m) Lisle Street in London W1 between 1 January detention centre. [171070] and 30 September 2013. [170650]

Mr Harper: The following table shows nationals of Mr Harper [holding answer 14 October 2013]: It is Syria detained solely under Immigration Act powers in not possible to provide the information requested without immigration removal centres (IRC), short term holding incurring disproportionate costs. facilities (STHF) and pre departure accommodation (PDA), as at 30 June 2013, the latest date for which Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home information is available is as follows: Department at how many raids in (a) Rupert Street, (b) Wardour Street, (c) Dansey Place, (d) Macclesfield Place of detention Number of detainees Street, (e) Gerrard Street, (f) Horse and Dolphin Yard, (g) Gerrard Place, (h) Newport Place, (i) Little Brook House IRC 4 Newport Street, (j) Leicester Place, (k) Leicester Court, Campsfield House IRC 1 (l) Leicester Street and (m) Lisle Street between 1 Colnbrook IRC 1 January and 30 September 2013 Capita staff were present; Dover IRC 11 and how much in total was paid to Capita for those Dungavel IRC 2 raids. [170652] Harmondsworth IRC 0 Haslar IRC 1 Mr Harper [holding answer 14 October 2013]: Capita Morton Hall IRC 2 staff have not accompanied the Immigration and Tinsley House IRC 3 Compliance Enforcement Team on any raids in the W1 Yarl’s Wood IRC 1 area between 1 January and 30 September 2013. Colnbrook STHF 0 Larne House STHF 0 Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Pennine House STHF 0 Department how many people were found to be illegal Cedars PDA 0 immigrants at raids in (a) Rupert Street, (b) Wardour Total detainees 26 Street, (c) Dansey Place, (d) Macclesfield Street, (e) Gerrard Street, (f) Horse and Dolphin Yard, (g) Gerrard The Home Office publishes quarterly and annual Place, (h) Newport Place, (i) Little Newport Street, (j) statistics on the number of people detained in the UK, Leicester Place, (k) Leicester Court, (l) Leicester Street within Immigration Statistics. The data on people in and (m) Lisle Street between 1 January and 30 September detention by nationality are readily available in the 2013; how many of them were released after arrest; how latest release, Immigration Statistics: April to June 2013, many of them have been deported; how many fines were table dt_11_q from the GOV.UK website: issued to businesses as a result of those raids; what the https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/home-office/ total amount of fines was; and how much has been series/immigration-statistics-quarterly-release recouped in fines. [170653] 227W Written Answers24 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 228W

Mr Harper [holding answer 14 October 2013]: The Permanent migration data held required to respond to this question are held Local authority Number of cases on multiple IT systems. Therefore we are not able to East Dunbartonshire 26 provide the information required without incurring East Lothian 22 disproportionate costs. East Renfrewshire 22 Immigration: Married People Edinburgh, City of 427 Eilean Siar 2 Falkirk 35 Sarah Teather: To ask the Secretary of State for the Fife 91 Home Department following the High Court judgment Glasgow City 593 of 5 July 2013 on the minimum income threshold for Highland 77 spouses or partners and children applying in the family Inverclyde 15 route, what guidance her Department has issued regarding Midlothian 18 passports and other documents that have been submitted Moray 20 with applications made under Appendix FM to the North Ayrshire 12 Immigration Rules that have been subject to the hold on North Lanarkshire 56 decision-making. [170617] Orkney Islands 2 Perth and Kinross 35 Mr Harper: The Home Office has issued guidance to Renfrewshire 42 applicants on its immigration website (at the following Scottish Borders 15 link) which includes advice for those whose case is Shetland Islands 7 subject to the hold on decision-making and who want their passport returned because they need to travel. South Ayrshire 17 South Lanarkshire 65 http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitecontent/ Stirling 24 newsfragments/88-min-income-update West Dunbartonshire 13 The Home Office’s immigration website contains West Lothian 42 guidance for applicants (at the following link) on how Total 2,173 to ask for the return of other documents. http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/aboutus/contact/return- Temporary migration of-documents/ Local authority Number of cases

Immigration: Scotland Aberdeen City 118 Aberdeenshire 7 Angus 5 Pamela Nash: To ask the Secretary of State for the Argyll and Bute 10 Home Department how many outstanding asylum and Clackmannanshire 3 immigration cases initiated since May 2010 remain to Dumfries and Galloway 7 be concluded in each (a) parliamentary constituency Dundee City 53 in Scotland and (b) local authority area in Scotland. East Ayrshire 3 [167370] East Dunbartonshire 7 East Lothian 5 Mr Harper: We are not able to provide the data in the East Renfrewshire 9 format requested since we do not capture information Edinburgh, City of 286 based on parliamentary constituencies. The following Falkirk 23 data relates to main applicants with a postcode in the Fife 45 Scotland Government Department area by local authority Glasgow City 481 where there is a valid postcode on the Case Information Highland 14 Database (CID) which matches the ONS Postcode database. Inverclyde 1 The data is not available as a National Statistic. Midlothian 4 The data used to supply this response is taken from Moray 6 the Case Information Database (CID). Data taken from North Ayrshire 4 CID is completely reliant on the quality and timeliness North Lanarkshire 41 of the information held on the database. As such this is Perth and Kinross 24 Management Information which is subject to change. Renfrewshire 46 This data has been provided by and assured by the Scottish Borders 5 Home Office Performance and Compliance Unit. South Ayrshire 13 South Lanarkshire 35 Permanent migration Stirling 23 Local authority Number of cases West Dunbartonshire 8 Aberdeen City 294 West Lothian 19 Aberdeenshire 51 Total 1,305 Angus 16 Asylum Argyll and Bute 20 Local authority Number of cases Clackmannanshire 10 Dumfries and Galloway 19 Aberdeen City 12 Dundee City 73 Aberdeenshire 4 East Ayrshire 12 Angus 3 229W Written Answers24 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 230W

Asylum Mr Harper: My noble Friend Lord Taylor of Holbeach, Local authority Number of cases Minister for Criminal Information, replied on my behalf Argyll and Bute 1 on 10 October 2013. Dumfries and Galloway 5 Sir Gerald Kaufman: To ask the Secretary of State for Dundee City 5 the Home Department (1) when she intends to reply to East Ayrshire 1 the letter to her dated 2 September 2013 from the right East Dunbartonshire 1 hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton with regard to East Lothian 1 Ms Karen Faith; [170855] East Renfrewshire 2 Edinburgh, City of 41 (2) when she intends to reply to the letter of 4 Falkirk 6 September 2013 from the right hon. Member for Fife 9 Manchester, Gorton with regard to Mr Arif; [170857] Glasgow City 996 (3) when she intends to reply to the letter to her Highland 6 dated 9 September 2013 from the right hon. Member Moray 1 for Manchester, Gorton with regard to Ms Shasta North Ayrshire 5 Parveen Fazalbad. [170858] North Lanarkshire 9 Perth and Kinross 2 Mr Harper: I wrote to the right hon. Member on 8 Renfrewshire 4 October 2013. Scottish Borders 1 South Ayrshire 5 Sir Gerald Kaufman: To ask the Secretary of State for South Lanarkshire 10 the Home Department when she intends to reply to the Stirling 2 letter to her dated 4 September 2013 from the right West Dunbartonshire 1 hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton with regard to West Lothian 6 Ms N. Kona. [170856] Total 1,139 Mr Harper: The Minister for Criminal Information, my noble Friend, Lord Holbeach, replied on my behalf Immigration: Stratford on 10 October 2013

Lyn Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for the Syria Home Department what assessment she made of the potential impact on community cohesion ahead of her Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State Department’s immigration status checks in Stratford. for the Home Department (1) what discussions she has [167344] had with her counterparts in EU countries to discuss the need to share responsibility for Syrian refugees and Mr Harper: British Transport police were the lead resettling refugees across Europe; [171818] agency and as such are responsible for a community (2) if she will begin an immediate programme of impact assessment. emergency humanitarian evacuations for the most vulnerable Syrian refugees in conjunction with the Lyn Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for the UNHCR and other countries. [171819] Home Department what risk assessment was undertaken before her Department instigated immigration status Mr Harper [holding answer 21 October 2013]: The checks in Stratford. [167663] Government shares the deep concerns of other member states regarding the continuing humanitarian crisis in Mr Harper: British Transport police were the lead Syria. However, the Government has no current plans agency and as such are responsible for the completion to resettle Syrian refugees. We continue to believe that of a risk assessment. the EU’s immediate priority should be to provide humanitarian assistance to displaced people in partnership with neighbouring countries and the United Nations Members: Correspondence High Commission for Refugees. The UK has now increased its pledge for the Syrian relief effort to £500 million. Sir Gerald Kaufman: To ask the Secretary of State for This represents the UK’s largest ever response to a the Home Department when she intends to reply to the humanitarian crisis. letter to her dated 2 September 2013 from the right We continue to discuss the Syrian crisis with our hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton with regard to European partners and the Minister for Security reiterated Mr Christian Felix Okafor. [170853] our position at the recent Justice and Home Affairs Council on 8 October. Mr Harper: My noble Friend Lord Taylor of Holbeach, Minister for Criminal Information, replied on my behalf UK Visas and Immigration on 14 October 2013. Mr Winnick: To ask the Secretary of State for the Sir Gerald Kaufman: To ask the Secretary of State for Home Department if she will arrange for the hon. Member the Home Department when she intends to reply to the for Walsall North to receive a reply to her letter of letter to her dated 2 September 2013 from the right 2 September 2013 to the interim director general of UK hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton with regard to Visas and Immigration on behalf of a constituent, CTS Mr S. D. Amawu. [170854] ref B23798/13. [170246] 231W Written Answers24 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 232W

Mr Harper [holding answer 14 October 2013]: The The Government response to the consultation is available Director of Immigration Operations replied to the hon. online: Member on 9 October 2013. https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/changes-to-the- scope-and-governance-of-the-gangmasters-licensing- Mr Winnick: To ask the Secretary of State for the authority Home Department if she will arrange for the hon. Member for Walsall North to receive a reply to his letter Marine Conservation Zones to the Interim Director General, UK Visa and Immigration of 3 September 2013 on behalf of a constituent, CTS Sir Greg Knight: To ask the Secretary of State for ref M11944/13. [170664] Environment, Food and Rural Affairs when he plans to announce his decision on which areas to designate as Mr Harper [holding answer 14 October 2013]: The marine conservation zones. [171908] Director General responsible for UK Visas and Immigration responded to the hon. Member on 11 October 2013. George Eustice: We aim to announce the decision on designation of the first set of new Marine Conservation Mr Winnick: To ask the Secretary of State for the Zones shortly; along with a summary of site-specific Home Department if she will arrange for the hon. issues raised in the consultation. Member for Walsall North to receive a reply to his letter to the interim Director General UK Visas and Immigration of 16 September 2013 on behalf of a constituent CTS Redundancy ref B25111/13. [171613] Jackie Doyle-Price: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Harper [holding answer 21 October 2013]: UK Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many staff Visas and Immigration wrote to the hon. Member on 17 were made redundant from non-departmental public October 2013. bodies accountable to his Department in (a) 2010-11, (b) 2011-12 and (c) 2012-13; and how many redundancy payments were made in lieu of notice. [170350]

ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS Dan Rogerson: The number of staff made redundant from DEFRA non-departmental public bodies are Bovine Tuberculosis: South West published in DEFRA’s Annual Report of Accounts (ARA). Links to the years requested are provided as follows: Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what assessment DEFRA Annual Report 2012-13 (pages 118 and 119) he has made of the cause of the changes in estimate of DEFRA Annual Report 2011-12 (pages 115 and 116) the badger population in the Gloucestershire and Somerset DEFRA Annual Report 2010-11 (page 91). cull zones between October 2012 and February 2013; Further details for each of the bodies will be in their and if he will make a statement. [172257] ARAs, as published on their websites. Compensation in lieu of notice is paid if an agreed George Eustice: All wildlife population estimates have departure date is before the end of the contractual some degree of uncertainty around them. The estimates notice period. Records of compensation in lieu of notice made in February 2013 were based on fieldwork carried are not kept centrally and therefore any attempt to out in autumn 2012 and were the best estimates available collate this information would incur disproportionate at that time of the badger population in 2012. Further cost. hair trapping fieldwork was carried out immediately prior to the commencement of the culls earlier this year Jackie Doyle-Price: To ask the Secretary of State for which allowed more up-to-date estimates to be made, Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many staff based on the best available information, of the badger in his Department were made redundant in (a) population in 2013. 2010-11, (b) 2011-12 and (c) 2012-13; and how many The fieldwork does not provide any information on such staff received payments in lieu of notice. [170368] the reason for the population decline between the two studies. Dan Rogerson: When a role comes to an end, redeployment or voluntary departure is considered before Gangmasters compulsory redundancy for the member of staff carrying out that role. Stephen Barclay: To ask the Secretary of State for The following information shows numbers of compulsory Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what progress he redundancies and voluntary departures (voluntary exits has made on introducing civil penalties for gangmaster- or voluntary redundancies) from core DEFRA. [172176] related offences. Core DEFRA Number of compulsory Number of voluntary George Eustice: DEFRA consulted earlier this year redundancies departures on proposals to make available to the Gangmasters Licensing Authority (GLA) civil sanctions under the 2010-11 3 321 Regulatory Enforcement and Sanctions Act 2008. 2011-12 0 20 Discussions continue with the GLA on the use of these 2012-13 0 52 additional powers. 233W Written Answers24 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 234W

A total of 15 staff received payments in lieu of notice Jo Swinson: The coalition Government has made in 2012-13. To obtain numbers for previous years records working parents a central part of our agenda by introducing would have to be extracted manually and therefore any a radical new system of shared parental leave and attempt to collate this information would incur extending the right to request flexible working. We are disproportionate cost. empowering both parents to make decisions on how best to care for their child in the first year of life and Weed Control enabling all employees to balance their work with their personal responsibilities. Sir Greg Knight: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many Engineers: Females enforcement notices have been served on occupiers of private land under the Weeds Act 1959 on owners Alec Shelbrooke: To ask the Secretary of State for failing to prevent the spread of weeds including ragwort Business, Innovation and Skills what steps he is taking in each of the last five years. [171614] to encourage more women to become engineers. [900675] George Eustice: The table shows the number of enforcement notices for failing to prevent the spread of Caroline Dinenage: To ask the Secretary of State for weeds for the last five years. Business, Innovation and Skills what steps he is taking The 2009 and 2010 figures are all encompassing as to encourage more women to become engineers. they were not, at the time split between categories of [900682] land owners. From 2011 onwards the figures only relate directly to enforcement notices served on private landowners. Mr Willetts: On 30 September 2013, I announced a £400 million boost for English universities to promote Enforcements science and engineering. A £200 million fund from Government will be matched by universities on at least 2009 40 a one to one basis. This will help more women into these 2010 24 disciplines by requiring universities to provide evidence 2011 51 of a commitment to equality and diversity, such as an 2012 32 Athena Swan award, in order to access government 2013 28 funding. Enforcement is very much a last resort method to Also, in November the Department for Business, encourage compliance with the Weeds Act. Where possible Innovation and Skills will jointly host Tomorrow’s Engineers we encourage and facilitate communications between week, which will challenge negative perceptions and complainants and the landowners to take action. In the aims to excite young people, specifically girls, about a vast majority of cases this approach is successful. career in engineering. Higher Education: Admissions

BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS Mr Graham Stuart: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what steps he is taking Business: Carbon Emissions to ensure that students receive transparent information on how applications will be assessed for different David T. C. Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for courses at different universities. [172177] Business, Innovation and Skills what assessment he has made of the effect of carbon pricing on businesses in Mr Willetts: Universities are independent and the UK; and if he will make a statement. [900692] autonomous organisations and as such are responsible for their own admissions decisions. The Government Michael Fallon: The Government analyses the impact has no legal power to interfere in university admissions. of energy and climate change policies on all consumers Following a recent consultation, the independent Quality including businesses, and publishes this assessment in Assurance Agency for Higher Education will shortly DECC’s annual Price and Bill Impacts Report. The publish a revised chapter on admissions in the UK latest version was published in March this year. Quality Code for Higher Education. This will make For medium and large energy users the price impact clear what institutions are required to do, based on the is £3 per MWh in 2013 rising to £15 per MWh in 2020. key principle that recruitment, selection, and admission To address this, Government has in place a £420 policies and procedures should adhere to the principles million compensation package for energy intensive of fair admission, being transparent, reliable, valid, industries. We have received 64 applications, made decisions inclusive and underpinned by appropriate organisational on 21, including two steel companies in Wales, and paid structures and processes. over £13 million in compensation. We are awaiting The sector led Supporting Professionalism in Admission information from the remaining applications but expect Programme (SPA) also promotes fair and professional to make decisions on them by mid-November. admissions across the HE Admissions sector in the UK. SPA strongly encourages transparency on admissions Employment: Parents policy, and particularly the publication of an admissions policy that is clear and comprehensible to applicants Lorely Burt: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, and their advisors. In particular, SPA suggests that Innovation and Skills what support his Department is details of the qualifications, knowledge, qualities and providing for parents in the workplace. [900690] skills applicants should have, and how the institution 235W Written Answers24 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 236W interprets or assesses merit and potential should either We have set out our Industrial Strategy, a long-term, be specified within the official admissions policy or whole of Government approach to give business attached to it. the confidence to invest. We are also implementing Information is also available, at course level, on the recommendations from Lord Heseltine’s report to transform Unistats website showing the entry qualifications and the environment for UK businesses. UCAS tariff scores of previous applicants. Training: Older Workers Mr Rob Wilson: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what assessment he has made of university admissions for the current academic David Simpson: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills how many and what year. [900683] proportion of people aged over 55 years have been assisted in learning new job skills in each of the last Mr Willetts: UCAS will publish their end of cycle three years. [171920] report on accepted applicants in December. Data already published by UCAS show that more students than ever before are getting their first choice at university and Matthew Hancock: Information on the number of there is a higher participation rate among 18-year-olds apprenticeship starts and achievements in England by than ever before. The proportion of 18-year-olds from age (including those aged 45-59 and 60 and above) is the most disadvantaged backgrounds applying to university published in a supplementary table to a quarterly Statistical had also increased to the highest level ever recorded. First Release (SFR): http://www.thedataservice.org.uk/NR/rdonlyres/3DA49EDD- Minimum Wage: Apprentices EC1F-4F37-8D7A-AC7A0F20E3E8/0/ Oct2013_Apprenticeship_Starts.xls Steve Rotheram: To ask the Secretary of State for http://www.thedataservice.org.uk/NR/rdonlyres/60297A67- Business, Innovation and Skills if he will undertake an 6111-4D21-B0C1-0FF90B108012/0/ June2013_Apprenticeship_Achievements revised.xls assessment of how many apprentices in the UK are paid no more than the apprentice national minimum We do not produce figures on the numbers aged 55 wage. [172249] and over.

Matthew Hancock: We undertake a regular pay survey on apprenticeships. On 4 October the Government published the 2012 apprenticeship pay survey. This found EDUCATION that the median rate of gross hourly pay received by apprentices in England was £6.09. By age group, median Education Endowment Foundation gross hourly pay was £3.00 for under 19-year-olds, £5.37 for 19 to 24-year-olds, and £7.15 for those aged 25 or more. Nic Dakin: To ask the Secretary of State for Education how many times Ministers in his Department have met Royal Mail the Education Endowment Foundation since May 2010. [172244] Ian Murray: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills pursuant to the answer Mr Laws: The Department publishes quarterly reports of 18 October 2013, Official Report, column 876W, on on the gov.uk website, which detail meetings between Royal Mail, what total amount of interest is being Department for Education Ministers and external retained by the Government; and whether such interest organisations. This includes meetings with the Education will be retained in a separate account or the general Endowment Foundation (EEF). The reports can be fund. [172172] accessed at: https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/dfe-ministers- Michael Fallon: The interest accrued by 21 October quarterly-returns 2013 was approximately £78,000. This will be paid into the Consolidated Fund. The retention of interest accrued GCSE on retail applications is in line with that taken in privatisations under previous governments. Damian Hinds: To ask the Secretary of State for Trade Competitiveness Education pursuant to the answer of 16 October 2013, Official Report, columns 746-7W, on GCSE, what those Mr Ward: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, figures are for (a) 2009-10 and (b) 2010-11. [171983] Innovation and Skills what steps he is taking to improve the competitiveness of British industry. Mr Laws: The following table provides information [900676] as requested for the percentage of Pakistani pupils achieving 5 or more GCSEs at grade A* to C or Michael Fallon: The Government has taken a range equivalent including English and mathematics GCSEs1 of measures through our Plan for Growth, including for pupils2, 3 in London and England (excluding London) cutting corporation tax and reducing regulation, in in 2009/10 and 2010/114. Coverage is for all state-funded order to make the UK the best place in Europe to start, schools (including academies and city technology colleges) finance and grow a business. in England. 237W Written Answers24 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 238W

Pakistani All pupils5 Percentage achieving Percentage achieving 5+A*-C grades inc. 5+A*-C grades inc. English and English and Number of eligible pupils2 mathematics GCSEs1 Number of eligible pupils2 mathematics GCSEs1

2010/11 London 2,782 62.2 74,229 61.9 England (excluding London) 13,566 50.9 490,634 57.8

2009/10 London 2,717 60.8 74,253 58.0 England (excluding London) 13,452 47.5 501,717 54.9 1 From 2009/10 iGCSEs, accredited at time of publication, have been counted as GCSE equivalents and also as English and mathematics GCSEs. 2 Pupils at the end of Key Stage 4, in the academic year. 3 The figures in this table do not include pupils recently arrived from overseas. 4 Figures are based on final data. 5 Includes pupils of any other ethnic group, also those pupils for whom ethnicity was not obtained, refused, or could not be determined. Source: National Pupil Database

Schools: Admissions HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION House of Commons Galleries

Mr Hoban: To ask the Secretary of State for Luciana Berger: To ask the hon. Member for Caithness, Education how many schools made applications to the Sutherland and Easter Ross, representing the House of Education Funding Agency fund for enabling popular Commons Commission, on how many sitting days the schools to expand to meet parental demand in the last seating areas in front of the security screen in the (a) 12 months; and how many such applications were Special Gallery East and (b) Special Gallery West have approved. [171515] been closed this calendar year. [172187] John Thurso: The front of screen seats in the House Mr Laws: The Education Funding Agency funds the of Commons Gallery have not been closed on any day physical expansion of academies to meet popular demand this year, with the exception of the Syria debate during through the Academies Capital Maintenance Fund. the September recall when the West side was closed for This is a competitive process. Since June 2012, 518 security reasons. The East side remained open for academies have applied for expansion projects, of which Peers. 142 have been approved. Parliamentary Tours

Luciana Berger: To ask the hon. Member for Caithness, Young Offenders: Employment and Training Sutherland and Easter Ross, representing the House of Commons Commission, pursuant to the answer of 10 October 2013, Official Report, column 323W, on Parliament: visits, how much has been paid to Ticketmaster Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for for standard tickets (a) bought online and (b) collected Education (1) how many young people leaving custody at the box office to date. [172170] have taken part in the Youth Contract since February 2013; [171665] John Thurso: Charges of £174,000 (net of VAT) were (2) how many young people leaving custody since paid to Ticketmaster for tickets sold via Ticketmaster February 2013 have been eligible for entry into the and through the Ticket Office between 1 April and 30 Youth Contract. [171666] September 2013. Total ticket revenue to the two Houses for the same period was £1,318,000 (net of VAT and charges). Splits of charges between ticket types and Matthew Hancock: The Government do not collect collection methods, and figures for previous years, are data on the number of young people leaving custody not readily available. Approximately 66% of all ticket who are eligible for entry to, or who take part in, the sales are made via Ticketmaster. different elements of the Youth Contract. Visitor Services are a shared service with the House of Lords and as such revenue and costs are shared. There is, however, one exception to this. The programme of additional support aimed at 16 to 17-year-olds was previously open only to young people not in education, WALES employment or training and who have no GCSEs at grades A*-C. From February 2013, the Government Armed Forces extended eligibility for this programme to include young Owen Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales offenders who are not in education, employment and what steps he has taken to meet his objective in the training and who have one or more GCSEs at grades Wales Office Business Plan of acting as a champion of A*-C. We are collecting data on numbers benefitting armed forces in Wales. [172134] from this extension of the eligibility and, since February 2013, 139 young offenders with one or more GCSEs at Mr David Jones: The Wales Office takes every grades A*-C have enrolled on this part of the Youth opportunity to promote the work of the armed forces in Contract programme. Wales and to act as a Champion for our Service Personnel. 239W Written Answers24 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 240W

I have regular bilaterals with Brigadier Napier Devolution the head of the Army in Wales. In addition, I regularly meet with armed forces personnel throughout Owen Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales Wales, for example, I will be attending and speaking at pursuant to the answer of 15 July 2013, Official Report, the Royal Welsh Regimental Museum Trusts in Brecon; column 464W, on Devolution, what progress has been I have visited Search and Rescue Teams and Service made towards the publication of the draft Wales Bill. Families at RAF Valley; and held an event to mark [171994] HMS St Albans visit to Wales. Wales Office Ministers are proud to mark the hard Mr David Jones: We have made good progress in and dedicated work of the Armed Forces in Wales, and preparing the draft Wales Bill and intend to publish it always attend the Armed Forces Day Celebrations. In for pre-legislative scrutiny later in the year. November, I will represent Wales at the Cenotaph and my ministerial team will attend official Remembrance Domestic Fire Safety (Wales) Measure 2011 Day Services to remember those who have served their country. Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales The Under-Secretary of State for Wales, my hon. pursuant to the answer of 14 October 2013, Official Report, Friend the Member for Preseli Pembrokeshire (Stephen columns 425-26W, on Domestic Fire Safety (Wales) Crabb), is a member of the Armed Forces Covenant Measures 2011, parliamentary question 170435, what Cabinet Sub-Committee and I was delighted when the discussions or correspondence he has had with (a) Carl Vale of Glamorgan was the first local authority in Sargeant and (b) John Griffiths AM on the Domestic Wales to sign the covenant. To mark the occasion the Fire Safety (Wales) Measure 2011. [171985] Minister visited the Contact One Vale Centre as well as a Community Covenant Play Scheme to see the excellent Mr David Jones: I have not had any discussions with work that is happening in Wales. the Welsh Government on this matter. The measure was brought forward by an Assembly Member, and I refer the hon. Gentleman to the answer I gave on 14 October 2013, Official Report, column 425W.

Buildings Exports

Owen Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales Owen Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales whether the Wales Office move to Caspian Point was what assessment he has made of the role devolution completed within budget; and what the total cost of has played in increasing exports from Wales. [172133] this move was. [171999] Mr David Jones: The Chancellor of the Exchequer, my right hon. Friend the Member for Tatton (Mr Osborne), Stephen Crabb: Yes. has affirmed our target of increasing the value of UK The lease at Discovery House was for a term of 10 exports to £1 trillion by 2020. It is vital that both the years commencing in March 2003 and due to expire in UK Government and the Welsh Government work March 2013. together to achieve this, and I encourage all businesses In March 2012, the Wales Office, following looking to export to take full advantage of the services representations from the Welsh Government and the available through UK Trade & Investment to gain access landlord, agreed to early termination of its lease in to international markets. order to make way for an inward investor. As a consequence, The eighth report from the Welsh Affairs Select the Wales Office—with the approval of the Cabinet Committee ″Inward Investment in Wales″ made a number Office’s Government Property Unit (GPU)—agreed to of important recommendations for the Welsh Government exit the lease early and sign a new lease at Caspian to consider how Point. The move was completed in August 2012. “Wales’s visibility in the global market place” The gross cost of the move to Caspian Point (utilising has been reduced as a consequence of the abolition of a Welsh Government call-off-contract) was £564,971, the Welsh Development Agency (WDA), recognising broken down as follows: that it “remains one of the most recognisable of all Welsh brands” £ and Contractor Costs 297,550 “how existing recognition of the WDA brand can be used to Fixture and Fittings 157,578 improve and increase Wales’s global identity.” Legal Costs 41,007 Official Engagements Relocation costs (including IT 68,836 equipment) Total 564,971 Owen Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how many official engagements he has held in the Wales Office in the last three months. [171995] However, the Department as a consequence of its relocation in August 2012, estimates efficiency savings Mr David Jones: The hon. Gentleman will be aware of £302,285 over the 10 year term of the new lease, that the Wales Office publishes on a quarterly basis our resulting in an estimated net cost to the Department of transparency returns of ministerial activity with a wide £262,686. range of stakeholders. 241W Written Answers24 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 242W

Politics and Government PwC were one of a range of companies involved in the final part of our Soft Market Testing in March 2013, before the commercial process began. This exercise, which included suppliers Owen Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales and potential bidders, sought feedback on draft documents for what meetings (a) he, (b) Ministers in his Department use during the commercial negotiations. and (c) officials in his Department have had in the last The MOD has not sought or received advice from Ernst and six months with Cabinet Ministers in the Welsh Young on the GOCO or DE&S+ models. Government. [172132] KPMG are acting as financial advisors to the Materiel Strategy programme, providing assistance and advice to both the GOCO Mr David Jones: Over the past six months discussions and DE&S+ teams. This advice is commercially sensitive. with Welsh Government Ministers have taken place on a regular basis. Syria Public Expenditure Tom Blenkinsop: To ask the Secretary of State for Owen Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales Defence if he will make representations to Clarion (1) what progress he has made on implementing the Events Limited on the attendance of suppliers to the objectives of the Wales Office Business Plan in the last Syrian government at the recent Defence and Security Equipment international arms exhibition. [171910] three months; [171996] (2) which deadline for the objectives in the Wales Michael Fallon: I have been asked to reply on behalf Office Business Plan he expects to meet. [171997] of the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills. Mr David Jones: My priority is to promote economic The Defence and Security Equipment International growth and boost enterprise in Wales, the first objective (DSEI) exhibition is a commercial event organised by in the Wales Office Business Plan. In recent months I the company Clarion Events. The attendance of UK have worked to bring a new prison to North Wales, and overseas companies at DSEI 2013 was a matter for which will boost the local economy by £28 million a the exhibition organisers, Clarion Events. Shortly before year; announced during my visit to Toulouse a second the exhibition opened, the Department for Business, round of bidding for National Aerospace Technology Innovation and Skills’ Export Control Organisation Exploitation Programme funding—a scheme that will agreed a memorandum of understanding with Clarion help to create or retain 1,200 jobs UK-wide in the which set out their role and responsibilities, and those aerospace supply chain; worked with others to identify of exhibitor companies in respect of export and trade and secure infrastructure investment, particularly to control legislation. upgrade the M4; continued to promote UK Government support for super fast broadband and for Cardiff and Newport to become super-connected cities; and taken forward work on the business cases for the electrification TREASURY of the North Wales Coast railway line and the link Stamp Duty Land Tax between Wrexham and Bidston. Transparency of Lobbying, Non-party Campaigning Nick de Bois: To ask the Chancellor of the and Trade Union Administration Bill Exchequer (1) whether his Department has revised its estimates first made in the 2013-14 Budget Red Book Owen Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales for the collection of land tax stamp duty; [172275] what meetings he has held with third party campaigning (2) what estimate his Department has made of the groups regarding the effect of the provisions of the collection of land tax stamp duty in the 2013-14 Transparency of Lobbying, Non-party Campaigning financial year. [172276] and Trade Union Administration Act. [171998] Mr David Jones: None. Mr Gauke: Forecasts of Stamp Duty Land Tax (SDLT) revenue are produced by the Office for Budget Responsibility (OBR) and published in Table 4.7 of their “Economic and Fiscal Outlook” (EFO). The latest forecasts were DEFENCE published in March 2013 and can be found in the table or by following the link. Contractorisation Stamp duty land tax £ billion Alison Seabeck: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what advice his Department has (a) sought 2013-14 7.7 and (b) received on the GoCo model from (i) Deloitte, 2014-15 8.4 (ii) PwC, (iii) Ernst & Young and (iv) KPMG; and if he 2015-16 9.3 will place a copy of any such advice in the Library. [R] 2016-17 10.5 [172160] 2017-18 11.7 http://budgetresponsibility.org.uk/economic-and-fiscal- Mr Dunne: The advice that the Ministry of Defence outlook-march-2013/ (MOD) has sought and received on the GOCO model, from the companies of interest is as follows: The OBR will release revised estimates of expected Deloitte took part in the first part of our Soft Market Testing SDLT revenue for 2013-14 as part of their next EFO, in 2012, the purpose of which was to assess whether the private due to be published alongside the autumn statement on sector had the appetite and capacity to undertake such reform. 4 December 2013. 243W Written Answers24 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 244W

VAT: Energy departments is not held. It is the responsibility of clinical commissioning groups (CCGs) to commission services Charlotte Leslie: To ask the Chancellor of the to meet local needs. The funding that CCGs allocate for Exchequer (1) what assessment he has made of the provision of services is not broken down by service or revenue foregone by the Exchequer of a zero per cent policy area. rate of VAT on domestic gas and electricity; [172167] Decisions on which high risk trusts to concentrate (2) what criteria are used to determine which rate of the resources for the upcoming winter were made jointly VAT applies to particular items or services; [172185] by NHS England, Monitor and the NHS Trust Development Authority (NHS TDA). They were made (3) for what reason domestic gas and electricity bills on the basis of a number of factors including risk are subject to a five per cent rate of VAT; [172186] to delivery of the A&E standard, challenging local (4) if he will make it his policy to apply a zero per circumstances and the needs of local populations. This cent rate of VAT to domestic gas and electricity; gave a picture of those facing the greatest compound [172188] risk and identified the trusts thought most likely to (5) what recent discussions he has had with his benefit most from additional funding. European counterparts on repatriating control of VAT Where trusts, such as Hull and East Yorkshire Hospital rates from the EU. [172189] Trust, have not been identified to receive a share of these winter monies it is because NHS England, Monitor Mr Gauke: The application of VAT in the EU, including and NHS TDA believe there are other organisations rates and flexibilities afforded to member states in this that face greater risks and are most likely to benefit regard, is governed by EU law. from the additional funding. Nonetheless we are not A reduced rate of VAT of 5% currently applies to complacent; any areas that did not receive funding will domestic fuel and power. This has been in place since receive the constant support of NHS England, NHS 1997 and is the lowest rate possible under EU law. The TDA and Monitor to make some of the lower-cost existing law means that Government cannot introduce a changes that can still make big improvements. new zero rate, nor can we unilaterally extend the scope Each of the 143 urgent care working groups have of our existing zero rates as this would require a change presented specific plans for initiatives to alleviate pressures to EU VAT legislation. Any change to legislation would on local A&E departments, and NHS England, Monitor require a proposal from the European Commission and and the NHS TDA are working with hospitals across the unanimous agreement of all 28 member states. the whole country, including Hull and East Yorkshire Given the current reduced rate of VAT of 5% which Hospitals, to ensure that emergency services are ready applies to domestic fuel and power is the lowest rate for winter. possible under EU law, no assessment has been made of Ambulance Services the cost to the Exchequer of a zero per cent rate of VAT on domestic gas and electricity. John Woodcock: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what the average response time of each English NHS ambulance trust has been in each of the last three HEALTH years. [172235] Accident and Emergency Departments Jane Ellison: The information is not collected in the format requested. Information is collected centrally on Diana Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for the average (median) time to treatment for category A Health (1) what criteria were used to decide the amount calls at individual ambulance trust level. Treatment is of additional funding each hospital trust will receive to defined as the arrival of a health professional dispatched support the work of accident and emergency departments; by the ambulance service for immediately life-threatening what consideration was given to health inequalities calls. Category A calls are divided into Red 1, immediately when allocating such funding; for what reasons Hull life threatening, and Red 2, serious but less immediately and East Yorkshire Hospital Trust received no additional time critical; however average response times are only funding to support the work of its accident and emergency collected at the level of category A. It is not statistically departments; and if he will make a statement; [172251] correct to combine medians to get an annual position. (2) what funding his Department is giving to The following tables show the average time to treatment ambulance trusts to ease pressure on accident and for category A calls at each English NHS ambulance emergency departments. [172252] trust in each month since data were first collected in 2011-12. Jane Ellison: Information on funding for ambulance Information on the average response times for category trusts to ease pressure on accident and emergency (A&E) C calls in not collected centrally.

Median time to treatment for Category A calls—Split by ambulance service Minutes and seconds North East West Midlands Ambulance Service North West Yorkshire East Midlands Ambulance Service East of England NHS Foundation Ambulance Service Ambulance Service Ambulance Service NHS Foundation Ambulance Service Trust NHS Trust NHS Trust NHS Trust Trust NHS Trust

2011 April 5.10 4.09 5.22 5.38 5.34 4.36 245W Written Answers24 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 246W

Median time to treatment for Category A calls—Split by ambulance service Minutes and seconds North East West Midlands Ambulance Service North West Yorkshire East Midlands Ambulance Service East of England NHS Foundation Ambulance Service Ambulance Service Ambulance Service NHS Foundation Ambulance Service Trust NHS Trust NHS Trust NHS Trust Trust NHS Trust

May 5.05 4.59 5.14 5.48 5.32 4.38 June 5.08 5.09 5.13 6.01 5.45 4.38 July 5.15 4.58 5.19 5.57 5.32 4.37 August 5.16 4.41 5.13 6.02 5.34 4.28 September 5.29 4.49 5.09 6.02 5.38 4.35 October 5.28 4.52 5.20 6.07 5.35 4.31 November 5.11 4.52 5.09 5.56 5.31 4.45 December 5.30 5.01 5.23 6.12 5.33 4.55

2012 January 5.17 4.49 5.00 5.54 5.20 4.45 February 5.39 5.03 5.18 6.17 5.47 4.58 March 5.44 5.00 5.04 5.46 5.46 4.39 April 5.33 5.35 4.56 5.53 5.28 4.45 May 5.41 5.40 5.00 5.58 5.35 4.30 June 5.59 5.08 5.04 6.08 5.54 4.51 July 6.07 5.07 5.20 6.15 5.56 4.39 August 5.56 5.12 5.19 6.10 6.02 4.33 September 5.47 5.19 5.28 6.16 6.03 5.06 October 5.59 5.22 5.30 6.18 5.50 5.00 November 6.01 5.26 5.28 6.38 5.48 4.54 December 6.42 5.39 6.02 7.09 6.10 5.26

2013 January 6.11 5.27 5.39 6.35 5.51 5.13 February 5.39 5.33 5.40 6.24 6.12 5.25 March 5.40 5.33 5.28 6.47 6.34 5.25 April 5.45 5.20 5.18 6.26 6.12 6.13 May 5.49 5.11 5.14 6.16 5.51 6.07 June 5.42 5.06 5.17 6.19 5.50 6.17 July 5.53 5.21 5.34 6.36 6.16 6.36 August 5.48 5.14 5.35 6.40 6.06 6.00

Minutes and seconds South Central South East Coast South Western Ambulance Service Ambulance Service Ambulance Service Great Western London Ambulance NHS Foundation Isle of Wight NHS NHS Foundation NHS Foundation Ambulance Service Service NHS Trust Trust Trust Trust Trust NHS Trust

2011 April 5.36 5.51 3.00 5.38 5.06 5.36 May 5.42 5.54 4.00 5.37 5.06 5.24 June 5.54 5.59 4.00 5.32 5.18 5.30 July 5.36 5.54 7.00 5.22 5.06 5.24 August 5.24 5.53 6.00 5.25 5.06 5.24 September 5.48 6.04 5.36 5.31 5.12 5.30 October 5.36 6.03 6.17 5.23 5.18 5.29 November 5.30 6.05 6.06 5.10 5.06 5.28 December 5.48 6.29 6.22 5.21 5.12 5.36

2012 January 5.18 6.05 6.16 5.09 5.18 5.24 February 5.42 6.22 5.23 5.37 5.24 5.40 March 5.36 6.50 5.30 5.28 5.24 5.28 April 5.36 5.58 6.06 5.20 5.18 5.30 May 5.54 6.06 6.05 5.24 5.18 5.24 June 5.48 6.01 6.16 5.48 5.18 5.24 July 5.42 6.24 6.05 5.36 5.36 5.36 August 5.24 6.05 6.13 5.31 5.24 5.30 September 6.06 5.49 6.13 5.46 5.42 5.36 October 6.00 6.01 6.09 5.38 5.42 5.42 247W Written Answers24 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 248W

Minutes and seconds South Central South East Coast South Western Ambulance Service Ambulance Service Ambulance Service Great Western London Ambulance NHS Foundation Isle of Wight NHS NHS Foundation NHS Foundation Ambulance Service Service NHS Trust Trust Trust Trust Trust NHS Trust

November 6.06 5.59 6.06 5,29 5.36 5.48 December 6.36 6.28 6.11 5.53 5.48 5.54

2013 January 5.30 5.57 6.12 5.47 5.42 5.54 February 5.36 5.59 6.01 5.48 5.36 — March 5.36 6.08 6.00 6.06 6.00 — April 5.52 5.53 5.28 5.54 5.48 — May 5.42 5.41 5.33 5.41 5.42 — June 5.54 5.47 5.25 5.46 5.48 — July 6.06 6.21 5.35 5.58 6.06 — August 6.00 5.57 5.23 5.51 5.54 — Note: In February 2013 Great Western merged with South Western. Source: Ambulance Quality Indicators, NHS England.

John Woodcock: To ask the Secretary of State for In relation to hepatitis C, the Government’s 2010 Health (1) what assessment he has made of the ’Review of the Support Available to Individuals infected proportion of requests for ambulance attendance made with hepatitis C and/or HIV by NHS-supplied blood by (a) police officers and (b) members of the public transfusions or blood products and their dependants’ which were not fulfilled due to non-availability of estimated that approximately 28,000 individuals were vehicles in the last year; [172236] infected in the UK as a result of NHS blood transfusions (2) how many emergency response vehicles were before a screening test for donated blood became available available to each English ambulance service trust in (a) in 1991. A copy of the report has already been placed in 2010, (b) 2011, (c) 2012 and (d) 2013. [172237] the Library. As at 30 September 2013, 2,442 of those individuals had received at least one payment from the Skipton Fund Ltd in respect of chronic infection with Jane Ellison: Information about how many emergency hepatitis C. Of these individuals, the Skipton Fund has response vehicles were available to each English ambulance been notified of 320 deaths, which represents approximately service trust in 2010, 2011, 2012 and 2013 is not held 13% of the total number of individuals who have received centrally. Decision making regarding the number of at least one payment. emergency response vehicles is an operational issue and is therefore a matter for the local ambulance trust. The UK Haemophilia Centres Doctors’ Organisation estimated in 2011 that a further 4,689 people with No assessment has been made of the proportion of inherited bleeding disorders were exposed to hepatitis C requests for ambulance attendance made by police officers through treatment with NHS supplied plasma-derived and members of the public which were not fulfilled due clotting factor products, before safer products became to non-availability of vehicles in the last year. available in 1985. As at 30 September 2013, 2,648 of those individuals had received at least one payment Blood: Contamination from the Skipton Fund Ltd in respect of chronic infection with hepatitis C. Of these individuals, the Skipton Fund Mr Tom Clarke: To ask the Secretary of State for has been notified of 665 deaths, which represents Health (a) how many and (b) what proportion of approximately 25% of the total number of individuals people infected by contaminated blood through NHS who have received at least one payment. blood transfusions have since died. [171861] However, the Skipton Fund does not routinely receive death notifications in respect of those who do not Jane Ellison: Approximately 100 people were infected receive annual payments. There is no other information with human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) in the United on those who may be infected by hepatitis C as a result Kingdom as a result of treatment with NHS blood of NHS-supplied blood or blood products held centrally, transfusions, before a screening test for donated blood from which the Department can make a more accurate became available in 1985. As at 30 September 2013, 17 estimate. are known to be alive and registered with MFET Ltd, which makes payments in respect of infection with HIV, which implies that around 83% have died. Cancer: Drugs Approximately, a further 1,200 people were infected with HIV as a result of treatment for inherited bleeding Pauline Latham: To ask the Secretary of State for disorders, primarily haemophilia, with plasma-derived Health (1) what recent discussions he has had with clotting factor products, before safer products became NHS England on the management of the Cancer Drugs available in 1985. As at 30 September 2013, 353 are Fund budget and any projected overspend; [172240] known to be alive and registered with MFET Ltd, (2) what estimate NHS England has made of expenditure which implies that around 71% have died. on the Cancer Drugs Fund in 2013-14; [172241] 249W Written Answers24 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 250W

(3) what steps NHS England takes to assist clinicians provided to health care professionals and the public to make the most cost-effective use of the Cancer about their quality and effectiveness. There is insufficient Drugs Fund. [172242] evidence currently to recommend the use of unlicensed products. The National Institute for Health and Care Norman Lamb: Management of the Cancer Drugs Excellence tobacco harm reduction public health guidance Fund is a matter for NHS England. Ministers have not only recommends the use of licensed nicotine replacement had any discussions with NHS England on the management therapy (for example gums, patches), and recognises of the fund but departmental officials have regular that little is known about the effectiveness, quality and discussions with NHS England about the Cancer Drugs safety of unlicensed NCPs. Fund, including the financial position. Fertility NHS England collects expenditure information for the Cancer Drugs Fund on a monthly basis from its regional area teams and we are advised that forecasting Caroline Dinenage: To ask the Secretary of State for arrangements are also in place. NHS England is considering Health if he will convene an expert group on commissioning future publication arrangements for expenditure fertility treatment, for the purposes of encouraging information. adherence to the recommendations put forward by the NICE in its guidelines on fertility. [172122] The Cancer Drugs Fund is clinically led. NHS England has taken a number of steps to help clinicians make best Jane Ellison: We expect that all those involved in use of the fund, including: commissioning infertility treatment services to be fully publishing national Standard Operating Procedures for the aware of the importance of having regard to the National Fund, which explain how drug/indication combinations are Institute for Health and Care Excellence fertility guidelines. assessed for inclusion in the fund, taking into account clinical and cost-effectiveness; NHS England has advised that it does not currently developing a National Cancer Drugs Fund list of drugs and have, nor plan to have, an expert group on commissioning indications that will be routinely funded; and fertility treatment. developing arrangements for dealing with individual funding General Practitioners: Barrow in Furness requests for drugs not included on the national list.

Electronic Cigarettes John Woodcock: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what proportion of GP practices in Barrow and Furness constituency offered appointments (a) before Glyn Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Health 9am, (b) after 5pm and (c) at weekends in each of the what assessment he has made of the safety of e-cigarettes; last three years. [172231] what assessment he has made of whether e-cigarettes reduce usage of conventional cigarettes; and what steps Norman Lamb: The information requested is not held he is taking to support smokers who have decreased centrally. The hon. Member may wish to approach the their dependence on conventional cigarettes by using NHS England Cumbria, Northumberland, Tyne and e-cigarettes. [171867] Wear area team, which might hold the relevant information. Jane Ellison: The United Kingdom Government supports Health Services: Worcestershire a requirement to licence nicotine containing products (NCPs) as medicines through European Union legislation Karen Lumley: To ask the Secretary of State for and will continue to make the case for this position Health what recent progress he has made on the during the further negotiations on the draft Tobacco reconfiguration of health services in Worcestershire; Products Directive. This is intended to ensure that and if he will make a statement. [172038] products are available that meet appropriate standards of safety, quality and efficacy to help users cut down Jane Ellison: The reconfiguration of local health their smoking and to quit and to reduce the harms of services is a matter for the local national health service. smoking to smokers and those around them. Commissioners in Worcestershire are working with local During the period of research that informed the providers and stakeholders to develop proposals for the Government’s decision, the consistent evidence from a future provision of acute services across the county, variety of sources was that most electronic cigarette which will be subject to public consultation. users use the products to stop smoking or as partial replacement to reduce harm associated with smoking. NHS: Innovation There is some evidence from surveys that electronic cigarette users are having success in achieving their Mr Anderson: To ask the Secretary of State for Health goals with many current electronic cigarette users being what plans he has to re-establish the Innovations ex-smokers. Commissioning Fund; and if he will make a statement. Unlicensed electronic cigarettes are not risk free. [171952] Known and reported risks include acute effects on lung function, possible pneumonia, and other risks related Dr Poulter: From April 2013, NHS England has had to poor product quality. These products on the market responsibility for the commissioning of specialised services. have not been shown to meet standards of safety and NHS England has advised that the scale of this task efficacy required of medicines regulation. Products tested —to bring together regional commissioning into a single, had varying amounts of nicotine that usually did not nationally consistent operating model for specialised match the amount labelled. Regulating them as medicinal services commissioning—has resulted in a level of products would mean that accurate information can be unplanned expenditure. To manage this unplanned 251W Written Answers24 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 252W expenditure both in year and into the future, NHS Dr Poulter: The Department is conducting a England has needed to concentrate its efforts on their comprehensive analysis of all the responses to the Nursery core commissioning requirements. The Specialised Services Milk consultation, the impact assessment and the Commissioning Innovation Fund announced by NHS accompanying survey of child care providers. A England in August 2013, sits outside the core requirements Government response on the future operation of the and in October NHS England reluctantly took the Nursery Milk Scheme will be made after full consideration decision to suspend it. NHS England has advised that it is given to these and other relevant information. remains committed to both leading and facilitating the uptake and spread of innovation and will seek ways to reinstate the fund in future years. Telemedicine

Organs: Donors Mr Jamie Reed: To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) what steps his Department has taken to Glyn Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Health calculate the cost-effectiveness of increased use of telehealth how many reported cases there are each year of for people with long-term conditions; [172168] potential organ donors failing to donate organs due to (2) what assessment he has made of (a) the effect of an unavailability of (a) suitable beds and (b) specialist telehealth on the number of people presenting at accident nurses. [171868] and emergency departments and (b) the financial implications of wider use of telehealth within the NHS; Jane Ellison: NHS Blood and Transplant’s (NHSBT) [172169] national Potential Donor Audit (PDA) records the number (3) what assessment he has made of the potential of potential solid organ donors in the United Kingdom long term benefits of wider use of telehealth within the and documents the reasons for donation not proceeding. NHS; [172173] NHSBT have no recorded instances of a solid organ donation not proceeding due to pressure in intensive (4) what recent meetings he has had with companies care unit (ICU) beds after the potential donor has been on innovations in telehealth; [172174] referred to the Organ Donation Services team and (5) what steps his Department is taking to incentivise consent has been obtained. greater innovation in the telehealth industry. [172175] The following table shows the number of patients meeting the referral criteria for solid organ donation Norman Lamb: The Whole System Demonstrator who were not referred to the Organ Donation Services (WSD) programme, launched in 2008, was funded and Team due to pressure on ICU beds. run by the Department and was the largest randomised control trial in the world of telecare and telehealth in Financial year Number of patients the world. This WSD evaluated the effects of telehealth service utilisation on 6,191 patients in 238 general 2010-11 10 practitioner practices across three sites in Newham, 2011-12 2 Kent and Cornwall. It was set up to look at cost 2012-13 6 effectiveness, clinical effectiveness, organisational issues, Notes: effect on carers and workforce issues. 1. All data is as recorded on NHSBT’s Potential Donor Audit (PDA) as at 10 October 2013. A paper from the London School of Economics 2. During the above time period, the PDA audited all patient deaths in (LSE) on cost effectiveness of telehealth in the WSD emergency departments and critical care units in the UK, except study, published in the British Medical Journal on 22 March cardiothoracic ICUs. Patients aged <=75 only. Source: 2013 found that it was delivered at high cost. The LSE NHSBT identified a quality-adjusted life year (QALY) figure of £90,000 per patient which is there times the National There were a further three cases recorded where Institute for Health and Care Excellence recommended pressure on ICU beds was the reason for not testing for level. The LSE paper can be found at: death by Neurological Criteria and as a consequence were not referred to the Organ Donation Services Team www.bmj.com/content/346/bmj.f1035 (one in 2010-11 and two in 2011-12). We recognise that, when delivered as an add-on to Information on the number of potential donors referred existing services at low volume use and at a high unit to the Organ. Donation Services Team and where the price, telehealth and telecare is not cost effective. This is family were not approached for consent due to the why the 3millionlives initiative was developed. This pressure on intensive care beds has only been collected initiative aims to build a different approach to delivery since 1 April 2013. During the first six months there based on a new business model that will help to make have been seven potential cases. telehealth both cost and clinically effective. WSD clearly shows that using telehealth as an integral part of health There are no recorded instances where a donation and care services can help to reduce hospital admissions. could not proceed due to a specialist nurse not being The three WSD sites using telehealth experienced: available. a 15% reduction in A&E visits; School Milk a 20% reduction in emergency admissions; a 14% reduction in elective admissions; Anas Sarwar: To ask the Secretary of State for a 14% reduction in bed days; Health when the outcome of the nursery milk scheme an 8% reduction in tariff costs; and consultation will be announced. [172255] a 45% reduction in mortality rates. 253W Written Answers24 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 254W

Implemented effectively as part of a whole system Number of reported personal injury accidents by severity on the A417 redesign of care, telehealth and telecare has long-term between Nettleton Bottom and bottom of Crickley Hill: 2003-12 benefits such as alleviating pressure on long-term NHS Fatal Serious Slight Total Accidents costs and improve people’s quality of life through better 2003 0 2 11 13 self-care in the home setting. 2004 0 3 11 14 The Department is working closely with the NHS, 2005 1 1 12 14 social care and other stakeholders to simplify procurement 2006 0 2 8 10 and commissioning processes for telehealth and telecare 2007 0 0 13 13 services. 3millionlives aims to work in collaboration 2008 1 0 4 5 with industry, the NHS, social care and professional 2009 0 1 6 7 partners to improve the lives of three million people 2010 1 1 13 15 over the next five years through the introduction of 2011 1 0 7 8 telehealth and telecare technologies into redesigned clinical 2012 0 1 13 14 pathways. Since 1 January 2013 the following meetings have Data for 2013 will be available July 2014. The Department taken place between Ministers of the Department and does not collect information on damage only accidents. companies with an interest in telehealth: on 4 June the Under-Secretary of State, the right hon. and Electric Vehicles noble Lord, Earl Howe, met with representatives from O2 Health; on 18 June the Secretary of State for Health, the right hon. Richard Burden: To ask the Secretary of State for Member for South West Surrey (Mr Hunt), met with representatives Transport what representations he has received from or of Tunstall Healthcare; and on behalf of Guide Dogs on the safety of quiet hybrid on 24 October I held a round table with a number of companies and electric vehicles; what response he has given; and if with an interest in telehealth, telecare and assistive technologies. he will make a statement. [172248] Attendees at the roundtable event included: 2020Health; British Telecom, British Healthcare Industries; Tunstall Mr Goodwill: The Ministers have received correspondence Healthcare, Health Fabric Ltd, Medvivo Group, Computer from Guide Dogs, other organisations and individuals Services Corporation; the Advanced Digital Institute; asking for the mandatory fitment of added sound devices the Florence Programme; the Telecare Services Association; to electric and hybrid electric vehicles in order to improve and Intellect. I also attended an All Party Parliamentary the safety of pedestrians. Group on Telehealth on 25 June 2013. The former Under-Secretary of State for Transport met with Guide Dogs and the Royal National Institute for the Blind to discuss this subject. One of my ministerial colleagues will be having further discussions on these TRANSPORT issues with them in due course. A27 The Government is keenly interested in the safety of all road users, and is continuing to examine the evidence in this area. Nick Herbert: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what steps he is taking to hold the Highways Agency to account for the time taken to repair pedestrian traffic High Speed 2 Railway Line lights across the A27 highway at Arundel over the last three months. [172278] Karen Lumley: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport how he plans to ensure that the knowledge, Mr Goodwill: The Highways Agency recognises that skills and expertise developed during the building of there has been a delay in carrying out a repair to the Crossrail will feed into future construction plans pedestrian traffic lights on the A27 at Arundel. This is regarding High Speed 2. [172042] due to problems with the power supply. The agency has been actively pursuing the issues with their service provider for this route and I have asked the agency to Mr Goodwill: Construction of Phase 1 of HS2 is not treat the matter as a high priority. expected to commence until 2017. HS2 will provide significant opportunities for businesses currently involved in the construction of Crossrail to deploy their expertise A417 on this project. Skills developed at facilities such as the Tunnelling and Underground Construction Academy Geoffrey Clifton-Brown: To ask the Secretary of State established for Crossrail will be invaluable in supporting for Transport how many road traffic accidents have the needs of HS2. occurred between Nettleton Bottom and the bottom of Crickley Hill in the last 10 years. [171916] Humber Bridge Mr Goodwill: The number of reported personal injury road accidents on the A417 between Nettleton Bottom Sir Greg Knight: To ask the Secretary of State for (Ordnance Survey grid reference 394866, 213420) and Transport what discussions he has had with the Humber the bottom of Crickley Hill (Ordnance Survey grid Bridge Board on the need to avoid traffic delays on and reference 392361, 215774) in each of the last 10 years around the bridge; and when he next intends to meet are given in the following table: the Board. [171906] 255W Written Answers24 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 256W

Mr Goodwill: Recently, traffic delays have been that it would not be appropriate for the UK to support experienced on the Humber Bridge, due to necessary mandatory installation of eCall at this stage. The published work to renew the toll plaza infrastructure and toll project report (PPR470) can be found at: collection system. These works are planned to be www.trl.co.uk substantially completed by February 2014, and free-flow tolling by smart tag will be introduced later in 2014. The Parking Humber Bridge Board, comprising the four Humber area local authorities, is responsible for operating the Sir Greg Knight: To ask the Secretary of State for bridge, and has taken action to reduce the delays. I do Transport what guidance his Department has issued to not plan to meet the Board on this matter. all local authorities on constructing and operating car parking bays of sufficient size to accommodate the average family motor vehicle. [171907] Large Goods Vehicles Mr Goodwill: The Department for Transport (DFT) Richard Burden: To ask the Secretary of State for gives advice to local authorities on the design of on-street Transport what representations he has received from parking bays in Chapter 5 of the Traffic Signs Manual. the Campaign for Better Transport on demonstrations The design and size of such bays are prescribed in the of longer semi-trailers for articulated goods vehicles Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002. and risks to vulnerable road users; what response he https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/traffic-signs- has given; and if he will make a statement. [172247] manual https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/the-traffic-signs- Mr Goodwill: The Secretary of State for Transport regulations-and-general-directions-tsrgd-2002 has recently received a letter and report from Campaign The DFT also provides advice on the provision of for Better Transport following their attendance at a Blue Badge disabled parking bays in its Inclusive Mobility demonstration of a longer semi-trailer in June. The document. report has made very broad assumptions based on a https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/inclusive- single demonstration of a longer semi-trailer that was mobility not representative. DFT only has a role in setting the limits of the sizes The report has called for longer semi-trailers to be of parking bays on the public highway. The design and allowed only on designated local authority roads and size of parking bays in council or private car parks, we anticipate responding to the report’s authors shortly. such as for example supermarkets, are not regulated by The Government will continue to monitor the trial the DFT. closely and will report in full when the trial concludes at Public Footpaths which point Ministers will decide whether these vehicles will be allowed permanently on UK roads. Stephen Barclay: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport (1) what funding his Department has made available to support new (a) cycle paths, (b) bridleways Motor Vehicles: Electronic Equipment and (c) footpaths in the current financial year; [172182] (2) how much funding his Department made available Sir Greg Knight: To ask the Secretary of State for to support new footpaths in the council areas of (a) Transport what discussions (a) he and (b) his officials East Cambridgeshire and (b) England in each of the have had concerning the European Union proposal for last 30 years; [172183] legislation requiring the future fitment of an electronic in-vehicle system that automatically alerts the emergency (3) how much funding his Department made available services when an accident occurs; and if he will make a to support new cycle paths in the council areas of (a) statement. [171616] Cambridge City, (b) East Cambridgeshire and (c) England in each of the last 30 years. [172184] Mr Goodwill: The Secretary of State for Transport, my right hon. Friend the Member for Derbyshire Dales Mr Goodwill: The Department does not make funding (Mr McLoughlin), has not had any discussions on this available specifically to support cycle paths, bridleways subject. and footpaths. The provision of cycling facilities is the responsibility of the relevant local authority. We provide Officials from the Department for Transport have funding through the Integrated Transport block to local engaged in discussions with European Commission officials authorities to use for small transport improvement schemes, on a number of occasions. including walking and cycling schemes. The Government supports in principle any action However, since 2004 the Department has made a that would assist in reducing the number of collisions, number of funding streams available to local authorities deaths and serious injuries. that could have been used for cycle paths, bridleways The UK has some of the safest roads in the world and footpaths, as well a range of other interventions to and technology has an important role to play in this, support cycling. These are the “Sustainable Travel Towns”; but it is important that each initiative is carefully considered “Cycling Cities and Towns” programme; “Links to on its merits. Schools”; the “Local Sustainable Transport Fund”; the The results of independent research by TRL Ltd in “Linking Places Fund”; the “Cycle Safety Fund”, and 2010 showed that the benefits of making eCall mandatory the “Cycle City Ambition” grants. in all new cars will not justify the cost of implementing The capital allocations made to Cambridgeshire and it in the UK. The Government has therefore decided Cambridge City through these funds were/are: 257W Written Answers24 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 258W

Stephen Hammond: Liverpool Maritime Rescue £ million Coordination Centre (MRCC) was staffed at below risk Cycling Cities and Towns 1.53 assessed levels in September 2013 on 20 occasions out programme of 60 shifts. Links to Schools 0.17 These situations are mitigated by ‘MRCC pairing’ Local Sustainable Transport 2.38 where each MRCC is connected to at least one other Fund MRCC which is available to provide mutual support. In Linking Places Fund 1.00 respect of Liverpool MRCC mutual support is available Cycle Safety Fund 1.19 through a fixed link from Holyhead MRCC and dial up Cycle City Ambition grants 4.08 links from the MRCCs at Swansea, Milford Haven, Belfast and Stornoway. The Department does not hold data for the amounts within these schemes that were specifically spent on Every effort is made to recruit staff. Recently the cycle paths, bridleways and footpaths. The Department Maritime and Coastguard Agency (MCA) successfully also does not hold data on funding streams over a recruited more coastguards filling 28 vacancies and longer time period. offering a further 31 jobs to candidates in the most recent round. With this and now that negotiations with the trade union have concluded on the terms and conditions Railways: Tickets for the new coastguard jobs, the MCA believes that this will help stabilise the current staffing issues. Lilian Greenwood: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport when the planned flexible ticket trial will begin. [172256] Rescue Services: Stornoway Stephen Hammond: It is currently envisaged that the competition to run the flexible ticketing trial will take Katy Clark: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport place in early 2014 and the necessary infrastructure to on how many occasions the Maritime Rescue Co-ordination allow the trial to commence should be in place by early Centre, Stornoway, was staffed at below risk-assessed 2015. The exact details of the trial, including its start levels in September 2013. [172126] date and duration, remain subject to negotiation with train companies and it would not be appropriate to Stephen Hammond: Stornoway Maritime Rescue comment further at this stage. Coordination Centre (MRCC) was staffed at below risk assessed levels in September 2013 on 12 occasions out Rescue Services: Belfast of 60 shifts. These situations are mitigated by ‘MRCC pairing’ Katy Clark: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport where each MRCC is connected to at least one other on how many occasions the Maritime Rescue Co-ordination MRCC which is available to provide mutual support. In Centre, Belfast, was staffed at below risk-assessed levels respect of Stornoway MRCC mutual support is available in September 2013. [172125] through a fixed link from Belfast MRCC and dial up links from the MRCCs at Shetland, Aberdeen, Liverpool Stephen Hammond: Belfast Maritime Rescue or Holyhead. Coordination Centre (MRCC) was staffed at below risk assessed levels in September 2013 on 34 occasions out of 60 shifts. Roads: Accidents These situations are mitigated by ‘MRCC pairing’ where each MRCC is connected to at least one other MRCC which is available to provide mutual support. In Mr Frank Field: To ask the Secretary of State for respect of Belfast MRCC mutual support is available Transport what recent estimate he has made of the through a fixed link from Stornoway MRCC and dial number of children injured in road accidents on their up links from the MRCCs at Shetland, Aberdeen, Liverpool way to school in the last year; and what proportion of or Holyhead. such children were cycling. [172293] Every effort is made to recruit staff. Recently the Maritime and Coastguard Agency (MCA) successfully Mr Goodwill: There were 2,227 children aged between recruited more coastguards filling 28 vacancies and five and 16 (inclusive) injured in reported road accidents offering a further 31 jobs to candidates in the most between 7.30 am and 8.59 am on school days in Great recent round. With this and now that negotiations with Britain during 2012. Of these, 308 (14%) were pedal the trade union have concluded on the terms and conditions cyclists. It is likely that a very large majority of these for the new coastguard jobs, the MCA believes that this children were travelling to school at the time of the will help stabilise the current staffing issues. accident. More detailed estimates for accidents involving travelling Rescue Services: Liverpool to and from school including figures for younger children and breakdowns by age and mode of transport can be Katy Clark: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport found in published statistics table RAS30030, at the on how many occasions the Maritime Rescue Co-ordination following link: Centre, Liverpool, was staffed at below risk-assessed www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/ levels in September 2013. [172127] attachment_data/file/239765/ras30030.xls 259W Written Answers24 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 260W

Roads: Lighting For information, the Department has the following non geographic inquiries/information lines: DFTc 0300 330 3000, Highways Agency 0300 123 5000, VCA 0300 Sir Greg Knight: To ask the Secretary of State for 330 5799 and 0300 330 5797, VOSA 0300 123 9000. Transport what guidance his Department issues to local authorities on the selective switching-off of road lighting at night during poor weather conditions and reduced visibility; and if he will make a statement. [171615] WORK AND PENSIONS

Mr Goodwill: The Department has not issued guidance Cold Weather Payments: East Riding to local authorities on this matter. It is important that authorities consider the safety, cost and environmental Sir Greg Knight: To ask the Secretary of State for savings before switching off lighting columns, reducing Work and Pensions what estimate his Department has the hours of operation or dimming lighting levels within made of the number of people eligible for cold weather their areas. It is also the responsibility of each authority payments in East Riding. [171905] to determine whether or not to have highway lighting switched on during the hours of darkness and in poor Steve Webb: The estimates for the number of people weather conditions and reduced visibility. eligible for cold weather payments in each weather station area in the UK will not be available until the end Telephone Services of October. The estimates are produced by a scan of the systems immediately prior to the start of the cold weather payment season, commencing 1 November 2013. Mike Weatherley: To ask the Secretary of State for The scan is conducted as close as possible to the start of Transport what geographic telephone number his the cold weather season to best represent the most Department advertises for use by the general public. accurate number of eligible customers. [171895] The postcodes for East Riding are covered by Leconfield, Linton on Ouse and Sheffield weather stations. As the Stephen Hammond: The information requested is in weather station areas are based on the climate of the the following table: relevant postcodes, they do not align with any standard regional mapping. When the estimates become available, Geographic number(s) advertised for use by the I will place a copy in the House of Commons Library, Agency/area general public showing the regions that overlap with each weather Department for None station. Transport centre AAIB (Air Accident 01252 510300 (Farnborough) General inquiries/ Housing Benefit Investigation switchboard 01252 512299 (Farnborough) Accident Branch) reporting line MAIB (Marine 023 8039 5500 (Southampton) Switchboard 023 8023 Ms Harman: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Accident 2527 (Southampton) Emergency/accident line and Pensions pursuant to the contribution of the Deputy Investigation Prime Minister of 15 October 2013, Official Report, Branch) column 584, whether the under-occupancy penalty will RAIB(Rail Accident 01332 253300 (Derby) Office switchboard 01332 253301 Investigation (Derby) Office Fax 01332 253333 (Derby) Incident be included in the research he has commissioned into Branch) Reporting Line 01332 253338 (Derby) Incident Reporting the effect of housing benefit changes; what the terms of Fax reference for this research will be; whether a public DVL-A (Driver and 01792 782341 (Swansea) Switchboard consultation will be held as part of this research; and Vehicle Licensing Agency) when this research is expected to be published. [172171] DSA (Driving 0115 936 6666 (Nottingham) HQ general inquiries Standards Agency) 0115 936 6241 (Nottingham) Drink-Drive Rehabilitation Esther McVey: A consortium has been commissioned Scheme (DDRS) 0115 936 6547 (Nottingham) For to carry out a two year monitoring of the effects of the inquiries about motorcycle training 0115 936 6468 (Nottingham) For motorcycle trainers to order new removal of the spare room subsidy measure. The research DL196 forms 0115 936 6504 (Nottingham) Pass Plus will include effects of the measures on supply issues, line 0115 936 6370 (Nottingham) Technical Support impacts in rural areas as well as effects on financial Team 0115 936 6283 (Nottingham) For inquiries about DSA’s national standards for driving instructors 0115 circumstances and vulnerable individuals. The evaluation 936 6145 (Nottingham) For inquiries about public includes research with claimants, social landlords, local consultations 0115 936 6123 (Nottingham) For inquiries about copyrights and intellectual property 0115 936 authority staff and voluntary organisations. A public 6051 (Nottingham) To report driving test fraud or consultation is not being undertaken as part of this illegal driving instructors 0121 556 5570 (Birmingham) research. The evaluation is taking place over a two year For potential and approved driving instructors to monitor CRB checks period, starting from April 2013, with initial findings HA (Highways None available in 2014 and a final report published in late Agency) 2015. MCA (Maritime 02380 329100 (Southampton) HQ switchboard/general and Coastguard inquiries Self-employed Agency) VCA (Vehicle None Certification Alison Seabeck: To ask the Secretary of State for Agency) Work and Pensions what estimate he has made of the VOSA (Vehicle and None number of people in each region who moved from Operator Services public sector employment into self-employment in the Agency) last financial year. [172161] 261W Written Answers24 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 262W

Esther McVey: Robust information is not available, As outlined in the strategy, DWP officials are currently as Labour Force Survey data on self-employment does quality assuring data for universal credit and aim to not measure reliably whether individuals were previously release an initial set of official statistics on universal working in the public or private sector. credit claimants before the end of 2013. These official statistics will be published in accordance with the relevant Social Security Benefits: EU Nationals protocols in the Statistics Code of Practice and the precise release date will be pre-announced as soon as Mr Blunkett: To ask the Secretary of State for Work possible. and Pensions what estimate has been made by his Statisticians within DWP and Office for National Department of the number of former EU country Statistics are working closely to ensure that information migrants resident in the Brightside and Hillsborough on universal credit claimants can be included within the constituency who are of working age but are currently claimant count as soon as possible. unemployed and receiving jobseeker’s allowance or employment and support allowance. [172074] Welfare State: Northern Ireland

Esther McVey: We do not have this information. Ms Ritchie: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Although the Department for Work and Pensions checks and Pensions pursuant to the answer of 14 October the nationality and immigration status of benefit claimants 2013, Official Report, column 499W, on welfare state: to ensure the benefit is paid properly and to prevent Northern Ireland, what future flexibilities will be introduced fraud, this information is not recorded as part of the for Northern Ireland in respect of mitigation measures benefit payment administrative systems. for welfare reform. [172195] The Government is looking at ways to record nationality and immigration status of migrants who make a claim Mike Penning: Social Security in Northern Ireland is to universal credit so that we have more robust management a devolved matter and the Northern Ireland Assembly information about our claimants. is currently considering a separate Northern Ireland Welfare Reform Bill. Social Security Benefits: Medical Examinations Should the Northern Ireland Executive decide not to implement the welfare reform agenda, this would have a Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Work number of implications—both financial and operational. and Pensions how many clients have asked for their It is now a matter for the Northern Ireland Executive work capability assessments to be audio taped; and to decide what course of action they wish to take. what proportion of such requests were (a) agreed to However, I can confirm that my officials and I will and (b) denied in the most recent period for which data continue to work closely with the Department for Social is available. [172166] Development.

Mike Penning: Between September 2011 and September 2013 the number of applicants for employment and support allowance who requested an audio recorded JUSTICE work capability assessment was 4,109, 99.8% of these were agreed to. Bail To date nine requests have been turned down to audio record a work capability assessment. This represents Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice 0.2% of the total number of requests made. with reference to the answer of 13 July 2011, Official Report, column 323W, on bail, if he will publish figures for the most recent period for which information is Universal Credit available. [170442]

Rachel Reeves: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Vara: During financial year April 2011 to March Work and Pensions (1) if he will estimate the number of 2012, there were a total of 68 breaches of bail conditions people claiming universal credit who would otherwise (securities only) amounting to forfeiture of £433,398.54. be included on the Claimant Count in (a) total and There were no forfeitures of bail conditions where (b) each month since May 2013; [172222] surety was given. (2) if he will estimate the number of people claiming Also during financial year April 2012 to March 2013, universal credit who would otherwise be included on there were a total of 84 breaches of bail conditions the Claimant Count by constituency; [172223] (securities only) amounting to forfeiture of £739,192.35. (3) when he expects to publish the number of universal There were no forfeitures of bail conditions where credit claimants in each month since May 2013; [172224] surety was given. (4) when the number of universal credit claimants This was recovered in full from bail deposits (lodged) will be included in the Claimant Count published by paid directly into the HMCTS Bail Deposit bank account. the Office for National Statistics. [172225] British Indian Ocean Territory Esther McVey: The Department published the strategy for releasing official statistics on universal credit in Henry Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice September 2013 and this is available at: if he will ensure that the UK’s Mid-Term Report (Universal https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/universal-credit- Periodic Review) to the UN Human Rights Council statistics includes British Indian Ocean Territory. [171729] 263W Written Answers24 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 264W

Mr Vara: There were no specific recommendations Mr Vara: I have made no assessment of the usefulness regarding the British Indian Ocean Territory (BIOT) in of co-operation involving the UK undertaken as a the UK’s Universal Periodic Review report in May result of Article 9(1) or Article 9(2) of the Convention 2012. The mid-term review document is currently being on the fight against corruption involving officials of the drafted, and we cannot comment further on its content European Communities or officials of member states of at this time. the European Union but note that many of the matters covered have now been superseded by other measures. The Government do not hold data relating specifically Corruption: EU Law to co-operation with the authorities of one or more other EU member state owing to the provisions of Articles 9(1) and (2) of the Convention. The Government Jacob Rees-Mogg: To ask the Secretary of State for intend to maintain international co-operation unchanged Justice (1) what assessment he has made of the usefulness if the UK ceases to be bound pursuant to Article 10 of of co-operation involving the UK undertaken as a the Protocol on Transitional Provisions annexed to the result of Article 9(2) of the Convention on the fight EU treaties. This will be maintained through the usual against corruption involving officials of the European operational and judicial co-operation arrangements. The Communities or officials of member states of the European UK implements all the requirements of the Convention, Union in the fight against the offences in question; in the main through the Bribery Act 2010, with reliance whether the Government intends to maintain this also on the UK law and practices relating to extradition, co-operation unchanged if the UK ceases to be bound mutual legal assistance and international police, by the Convention pursuant to Article 10 of the Protocol prosecutorial and judicial co-operation. The Government on Transitional Provisions annexed to the EU treaties; intend to retain these measures unchanged if the UK and if the Government intends to maintain this ceases to be bound pursuant to Article 10 of the Protocol co-operation, how it will be maintained; [171301] on Transitional Provisions annexed to the EU treaties. (2) in how many cases the UK has co-operated with the authorities of one or more other EU member state EU Justice and Home Affairs owing to the provisions of Article 9(2) of the Convention on the fight against corruption involving officials of the Jacob Rees-Mogg: To ask the Secretary of State for European Communities or officials of members states Justice whether the Government plans to maintain of the European Union in each of the last five years; unchanged all UK measures implementing Council and what the substance and outcome of the co-operation Framework Decision 2003/568/JHA if the UK ceases to was in each case; [171302] be bound by that Framework Decision pursuant to (3) what assessment he has made of the usefulness of Article 10 of the Protocol on Transitional Provisions co-operation involving the UK undertaken as a result annexed to the EU treaties. [171684] of Article 9(1) of the Convention on the fight against corruption involving officials of the European Communities Mr Vara: The Government plan to maintain unchanged or officials of member states of the European Union in all UK measures implementing the Council Framework the fight against the offences in question; whether the Decision 2003/568/JHA if the UK ceases to be bound Government intends to maintain this co-operation by that Framework Decision pursuant to article 10 of unchanged if the UK ceases to be bound by the Convention the Protocol on Transitional Provisions annexed to the pursuant to Article 10 of the Protocol on Transitional EU treaties. Provisions annexed to the EU treaties; and if the Food Banks Government intends to maintain this co-operation, how it will be maintained; [171303] Gavin Shuker: To ask the Secretary of State for (4) what laws or practices have been implemented in Justice what proportion of court diversion schemes the UK to meet the requirements of the Convention on make referrals to local food banks. [171662] the fight against corruption involving officials of the European Communities or officials of member states of Mr Vara: HMCTS does not operate any court diversion the European Union; and whether the Government schemes which make referrals to local food banks. intends to retain these implementing measures unchanged if the UK ceases to be bound by the Convention pursuant HMCTS is working with the Department of Health, to Article 10 of the Protocol on Transitional Provisions wider Ministry of Justice, the Youth Justice Board and annexed to the EU treaties; [171304] the Home Office to take forward Government proposals to invest in liaison and diversion services for offenders (5) in how many cases UK authorities have co-operated with mental health, substance misuse and other with the authorities of one or more other EU member vulnerabilities. state owing to the provisions of Article 9(1) of the Convention on the fight against corruption involving HM Courts and Tribunals Service: Wales officials of the European Communities or officials of member states of the European Union in each of the Ian Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice last five years; and what the substance and outcome of how many staff have been employed by the Court the co-operation was in each case; [171305] Service in North Wales in the last five years for which (6) whether the UK implements all the requirements records are available. [170940] of the Convention on the fight against corruption involving officials of the European Communities or officials of Mr Vara: Permanent and fixed terms staff headcount member states of the European Union; and if not, in courts and tribunals in North Wales since September which requirements are not implemented. [171316] 2009: 265W Written Answers24 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 266W

Table 1: Persons sentenced to immediate custody1 for less than six months by As at September: FTE gender and offence group in North Wales police force area, 2012 2012 2009 241 Offence group Males Females Unknown Total 2010 222 2011 190 All offences 632 48 1 681 2012 178 1 Includes: sentences imposed under sections 90-92 of the Powers of Criminal 2013 167 Courts (Sentencing) Act 2000; indeterminate sentence for public protection; extended sentence for public protection; Detention and Training Orders; Young Offenders Institute; and unsuspended imprisonment. Note: In 2011 Her Majesty’s Courts and Tribunals service Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extracted was created. Enforcement staff and directorate personnel from large administrative data systems generated by the courts and police including those responsible for the administration of forces. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection Estates and Finance were removed from North Wales processes and their inevitable limitations are taken into account when those data are used. headcount and included in directorate administrative Source: structures. Justice Statistics Analytical Services

In 2009 staffing numbers included those working in Protection from Harassment Act 1997 Enforcement, Estates and Finance Directorates. Since the establishment of national administrative units, staff based in North Wales within these directorates are no Kelvin Hopkins: To ask the Secretary of State for longer shown within these numbers. Therefore it is not Justice how many magistrates in England and Wales possible to provide a direct staffing comparison between have been given training on sections 2A and 4A of the staffing levels now and in 2009. Protection from Harassment Act 1997. [170150]

Mr Vara: The responsibility for judicial training, including magistrates, lies with the Lord Chief Justice and is exercised through the Judicial College. Magistrates Prison Sentences: Wales are advised in court by their legal advisers who, as professional lawyers, will keep themselves up-to-date with legal developments. The Judicial College assists Mr Hanson: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice with this by providing regular updates on any changes how many (a) men and (b) women were sentenced to to the law via a jurisdictional electronic internal newsletter. an immediate custodial sentence of less than six It did so in respect of these provisions in June 2012. months for each type of offence by courts in North Additionally, the Justices’ Clerks Society, the professional Wales in (i) 2012 and (ii) 2013 to date. [170176] body for legal advisers, circulated a news-sheet in December 2012 dealing with the new offences. Jeremy Wright: Prison is the right place for serious, dangerous and persistent offenders. Since 2010, those Victims’ Commissioner who break the law are more likely to be sent to prison. The number of offenders sentenced to immediate Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice custody of less than six months, by gender and offence what budget is allocated to support the work of the type, in the North Wales police force are in 2012 is given Victims’ Commissioner. [171641] in Table 1. Mr Vara: In the current financial year (2013-14) the The information for 2013 is not provided as it is only budget allocation for the Victims’ Commissioner is provisional and it is planned for publication in May £264,126 this covers the salary of the Commissioner 2014. and the costs of her office. Table 1: Persons sentenced to immediate custody1 for less than six months by gender and offence group in North Wales police force area, 2012 2012 Offence group Males Females Unknown Total CABINET OFFICE Violence against 493—52 the person Sexual offences 4 — — 4 Government Departments: ICT Burglary 44 — — 44 Theft and 183 27 — 210 Chi Onwurah: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet handling of stolen Office what proportion of the accredited providers for goods the G-Cloud are (a) consultants and (b) application Fraud and forgery 16 2 — 18 providers. [172055] Criminal damage 11 — — 11 Drug offences 11 — — 11 Other (excluding 526—58Mr Hurd: Of the 708 suppliers on G-Cloud iii around motoring) 100 are consultancy firms and 400 offer software as a Indictable 4—— 4service. Over 80% of the suppliers are small or medium-sized motoring enterprises (SMEs). Summary non- 215 10 1 226 motoring Since the last general election, Government spend on Summary 43——43consultancy has fallen dramatically saving the taxpayer motoring £1 billion last year alone. 267W Written Answers24 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 268W

Implementation Unit and Delivery Unit Justine Greening: This programme was funded by the US and the UK. Tom Blenkinsop: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office what the cost was of (a) establishing the Number Steve McCabe: To ask the Secretary of State for 10 Implementation Unit and (b) abolishing the Prime International Development what return has been achieved Minister’s Delivery Unit; and what the differences are on her Department’s investment in Bost Airfield and [171978] between the work of both units. [171909] Bost Agricultural Park in Afghanistan. Justine Greening: The completion of phase one of the Mr Maude: There was no cost of abolishing the project enabled three commercial flights per week into Prime Minister’s Delivery Unit (PMDU). There was no Bost Airfield, connecting Helmand to the rest of the specific cost to setting up the Implementation Unit (IU) country. This cut journey times between Kabul and beyond that of normal departmental business. Helmand from two days to a one and a half hour flight. PMDU primarily focused on delivery of the previous Government’s top-down targets. It reported to the Prime Steve McCabe: To ask the Secretary of State for Minister through the Cabinet Secretary. International Development for what reasons her IU focuses on improving the implementation of the Department operated a leaseholdings rather than land Government’s highest strategic priority programmes, as purchase programme at Bost Agricultural Park. [171979] determined by the Prime Minister and Deputy Prime Minister. This includes a strong focus on the implementation Justine Greening: No leaseholding programme was in of both growth and social policy commitments. In place. addition, it is responsible for co-ordinating Departmental Business Plans and supporting their implementation. Steve McCabe: To ask the Secretary of State for The Implementation Unit reports to the Prime Minister International Development how many fluent Pashto and Deputy Prime Minister via the Minister for speakers her Department hired to work with locals on Government Policy and the Chief Secretary to the the leaseholding elements of Bost Agricultural Park. Treasury. [171980] Public Consultation Justine Greening: DFID Afghanistan employs local staff and fluent Pashto speakers on all projects as Mike Weatherley: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet appropriate. Office (1) what proportion of Government consultations include a summary of responses; [170200] African Union (2) if he will consider introducing the role of Consultation Commissioner to oversee Government consultations; Alison McGovern: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development on how many occasions [170201] (a) she and (b) her Ministers have met officials of the (3) if he will consider making the publication of a African Union in the last 12 months; and what subjects summary of responses obligatory in Government were discussed on each such occasion. [172232] consultations; [170202] (4) what proportion of Government consultations Lynne Featherstone: There have been three meetings have published (a) all responses, (b) some of the responses involving DFID Ministers in the last 12 months. The and (c) none of the responses since May 2010. [170203] Deputy Prime Minister and I met African Union Commission (AUC) Deputy Chairperson H.E. Erastus Mr Letwin: As part of the recent review of the Mwencha in February 2013 to discuss G8 issues. I met Consultation Principles, Cabinet Office officials have AUC Chairperson H.E. Nkosazana Dlamini-Zuma in worked closely with an Independent Advisory Panel June 2013 to discuss G8 and gender issues. Dlamini-Zuma drawn from academe, industry and charities to help and DFID Secretary of State Justine Greening co-chaired officials better understand the practical operation of the New Alliance Steering Committee in April 2013. the principles. The findings and recommendations from this review will be published in the near future. Bangladesh The Consultation Principles are not intended to be prescriptive nor impose strict obligations on Departments. Alison McGovern: To ask the Secretary of State for Oversight of consultations remains a departmental role International Development what role her Department but the principles provide best practice across Government. played in developing the International Labour Organisation Information regarding the specific content of programme for improving working conditions in the Government consultations is not held centrally. Bangladesh ready-made-garment sector; and what involvement her Department plans to have in the operation of that programme. [172233]

INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT Mr Duncan: Since my visit to Bangladesh at the beginning of June, DFID has been working with partners Afghanistan to develop a package of support to help improve working conditions in the garment sector in Bangladesh. The Steve McCabe: To ask the Secretary of State for ILO programme, which is a key part of this package, is International Development who paid for the road a result of months of discussion and development with building programme associated with Bost Airfield and the ILO and others, in which DFID officials have Bost Agricultural Park in Afghanistan. [171976] played an active part. 269W Written Answers24 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 270W

DFID Bangladesh will provide up to £4.8 million in The package comprises four pieces of complementary support of the ILO programme, and will be directly legislation (see as follows) and estimates, of the costs involved in the direction and monitoring of the programme and benefits were set out in the original Impact Assessment over the next three years, through the programme steering published in 2009.1 This estimated average annual costs committee and regular monthly meetings with the other to the UK over the period 2013 to 2020 of around donors and the ILO. The programme supports the £3 billion with annual benefits estimated at between implementation of the National Action Plan, which around £1.3 billion and £35.2 billion, depending on the brings together the Government of Bangladesh, workers value of carbon used for emissions savings (all figures in and manufacturers for real and sustained change that present value terms, 2008 prices). will ensure safe conditions for workers. It will also play a coordinating role with two brand initiatives: the Accord The Government has not estimated the total costs to on Fire and Building Safety in Bangladesh and the UK businesses and public purse since the implementation Alliance for Bangladesh Worker Safety. of these policies but, where available, latest cost estimates for individual elements of the package are given as Developing Countries: Females follows. Lorely Burt: To ask the Secretary of State for 1. The EU Renewable Energy Directive. International Development what steps she is taking to ensure that gender equality and women’s empowerment This requires that 15% of the UK’s energy demand in becomes a standalone goal in the post-2015 development 2020 is from renewable sources. To increase and accelerate framework. [172033] the use of renewable energy a number of schemes have been introduced. The renewables obligation (RO) provides Justine Greening: The UK has been clear in its advocacy incentives for large-scale renewable electricity generation for a standalone post-2015 goal on gender equality and by making UK suppliers source a proportion of their girls’ and women’s empowerment as well as ensuring electricity from eligible renewable sources. The feed-in that these issues are mainstreamed in the goals and tariffs (FITs) scheme pays energy users who invest in targets in the framework to be agreed by the United small-scale, low-carbon electricity generation systems Nations. for the electricity they generate and for unused electricity We are working with others across the international they export back to the grid. Combined, the costs of the community, including civil society, to ensure that this is RO and FITs schemes are estimated to add around achieved. £10 per MWh or 9% to the price of electricity for businesses in 2013 (all real 2012 prices). Lorely Burt: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development what assessment she has In addition the renewable heat incentive and renewable made of the effect of barriers to political participation heat premium payment schemes provide support to to the lives of women and girls in developing countries. renewable heat and are estimated to have cost a total of [172034] £15 million in financial year 2011-12 and £39 million in 2012-13, with budgets to the end of the spending review Lynne Featherstone: Women’s equal participation in period of £251 million in 2013-14, £424 million in political processes is central to achieving DFID’s strategic 2014-15 and £430 million in 2015-16 (all nominal prices). vision for girls and women. These show that removing This is funded through general taxation. barriers to women’s political participation can lead to increased numbers of female representatives and decisions The renewable transport fuel obligation (RTFO) requires that give greater priority to poverty reduction and gender companies that supply more than 450,000 litres of fuel equality, for example, legislation relating to honour per year to source a percentage from renewable sources. killing or the provision of rural water and sanitation In financial year 2012-13, the RTFO is estimated to services. have added around £315 million (in nominal prices) onto the cost of the UK transport fuel supply. 2. Reform of the EU Emissions Trading System (EU ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ETS) Directive. Climate Change The EU ETS puts a price on carbon by placing a cap David T. C. Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for on total EU greenhouse gas emissions from the power Energy and Climate Change what estimate he has made and energy intensive industrial sectors. By enabling of the cost to (a) UK businesses and (b) the public trading of allowances, emission reductions can take purse of compliance with policies in the European place where the cost of the reduction is lowest. More Climate Change Programme since the implementation abatement will be undertaken by organisations with of those policies. [171538] lower abatement costs and those with high abatement costs can instead purchase allowances. Gregory Barker: The EU climate and energy package, enacted in 2009, is a set of binding legislation which Over the course of Phase II of the EU ETS (2008-12), aims to ensure the EU meets its climate and energy UK industrial sectors received around 136 million more targets for 2020. These targets, known as the “20-20-20” free allowances than they needed to cover their emissions targets, set three key objectives for 2020: over this period. At the same time UK large electricity A 20% reduction in EU greenhouse gas emissions from 1990 producers received a shortfall (around 218 million fewer levels; than their total emissions). In addition over the same Raising the share of EU energy consumption produced from period, UK participants used around 77 million renewable resources to 20%; international project credits for compliance; these trade A non-binding 20% improvement in the EU’s energy efficiency. at a lower price to EU ETS allowances, reducing costs. 271W Written Answers24 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 272W

In 2013 the EU ETS is estimated to add around decision is taken for a follow-up EPR reactor at Sizewell) £2 per megawatt hour (MWh) or around 2% to the price from when the plant begins commercial operations in of electricity for businesses in 2013, based on an EU 2023, and the contract will last for 35 years. ETS price of around £6 per tonne of CO2 (all real 2012 We anticipate entering into negotiations in due course prices). with Hitachi for an investment contract to cover their 3. National targets for non-EU ETS emissions. planned developments. Under the so-called effort sharing decision, member states have taken on binding annual targets for reducing Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for their greenhouse gas emissions from the sectors not Energy and Climate Change what assessment he has covered by the EU ETS, such as housing, agriculture, made of the cost trajectories of (a) solar PV and (b) waste and transport (excluding aviation). The UK’s nuclear power over the past decade; and if he will make target is a 16% reduction in 2020 levels compared to a statement. [172138] 2005. Policies to comply with the Renewable Energy Directive and the UK’s carbon budgets are expected to Michael Fallon: DECC has not made an assessment deliver the reductions in emissions required to meet this of the cost trajectories of (a) solar PV and (b) nuclear target, implying no additional costs. power over the past decade. DECC estimates for levelised 4. Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS). costs are forward looking and estimate the cost of The final element is a directive creating a legal framework future build for various technologies. for the environmentally safe use of CCS technologies. DECC has published levelised costs since 2010. These The climate and energy package does not address the can be found on the ’Energy generation cost projections’ energy efficiency target directly. This is being done page of the DECC Website: through the 2011 energy efficiency plan and the Energy https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/energy-generation- Efficiency Directive. It is too early to assess the costs cost-projections and benefits of the EU Energy Efficiency Directive, as the UK has until June 2014 to transpose its requirements Energy: Billing into domestic law. Any significant costs and benefits will be set out in published impact assessments, relating to the separate articles of the directive. Jake Berry: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy 1 and Climate Change what steps he is taking to help http://www.ukccsrc.ac.uk/system/files/euclimateenergypackage.pdf people in (a) the North West and (b) Rossendale and Climate Change Convention Darwen constituency reduce their energy bills. [171871]

Jonathan Reynolds: To ask the Secretary of State for Gregory Barker: We have a range of initiatives to help Energy and Climate Change which (a) Ministers and all households with their energy bills. (b) officials in his Department will attend COP19 in Firstly, we are helping vulnerable consumers with Warsaw. [171090] their bills through the warm home discount scheme, winter fuel payments and cold weather payments. Secondly, Gregory Barker: The UK delegation to the UNFCCC we are helping households waste less energy and cut COP in Warsaw has not yet been finalised. The delegation their bills through energy company obligation, the green list will be published following the meeting, as is normal deal and smart meters. Thirdly, we are providing legislative practice. backing to Ofgem’s Retail Market Reforms which will ensure that consumers are on the cheapest tariff their Energy supplier offer which meets their preferences as well as providing clearer and more transparent information to Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for help consumers switch suppliers. Energy and Climate Change what representations he Last year, the Department provided funding to reduce has received from (a) the solar PV industry and (b) the fuel poverty, boost energy efficiency through the green nuclear industry on (i) the length of contract and (ii) the deal and encourage collective switching through the approximate £ per MWH subsidy required from around DECC Local Authority Competition 2012-13. 19 grants 2019 to bring forward investment. [172137] were awarded to local authorities in the North West. The full list of projects awarded funding is available Michael Fallon: The Government consulted from 17 here: July to 25 September this year on the draft EMR Delivery Plan that set out proposed strike prices for https://www.gov.uk/decc-local-authority-competition renewables, including for Solar Photo-Voltaic (>5MW), under Contracts for Difference commissioning 2014-15 Energy: Prices to 2018-19. The Government will publish a summary of Jonathan Reynolds: To ask the Secretary of State for representations received alongside the final Delivery Energy and Climate Change what information he holds Plan scheduled for publication in December 2013. on whether the big six energy companies will raise The Government has been engaged in lengthy prices further over the next six months. [171891] negotiations over an investment contract for Hinkley Point C nuclear power station, the results of which were Michael Fallon: Price alterations are a commercial announced on 21 October. The key terms of this deal decision for energy suppliers: the Government is committed are that there will be a strike price of £89.50/MWh to increasing competition between them and greater (assuming a £3/MWh reduction if a positive final investment transparency for their customers. 273W Written Answers24 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 274W

Fracking: Clwyd The UK Government has been working closely with the fuel industry and the Scottish Government to ensure Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy that motorists can carry on as normal, by encouraging and Climate Change what estimate he has made of the Scottish forecourts to increase their stock levels well likely level of tar shale deposits in the Vale of Clwyd. above normal levels as a precaution, by engaging with [172206] other import terminal operators in Scotland to increase their throughput to maximum and by ensuring that Michael Fallon: No detailed assessment of shale oil hauliers have strong contingency measures in place. We or gas in the Vale of Clwyd has been made. A DECC- have also been working with airports to ensure they commissioned British Geological Survey report, “The have contingency plans in place to ensure supply of jet Hydrocarbon Prospectivity of Britain’s Onshore Basins”, fuel, and with heating oil distributors to encourage notes the Formby oil seep and identifies oil seeps in them to stock up early. Arrangements are also being north Wales, east of the Vale of Clwyd: made to protect the continuing operation of the Forties Pipeline at the Kinneil processing plant on the https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/ attachment_data/file/66170/uk-onshore-prospectivity.pdf Grangemouth site so crude oil can continue to flow from North sea operations that use this pipeline. These have been recognised since the 17th century, and led to the discovery of the very shallow Formby Plutonium Oilfield in 1939 which produced heavy oil from sandstone. Christopher Pincher: To ask the Secretary of State for Hinkley Point C Power Station Energy and Climate Change when he plans to determine which technologies are deemed credible to reuse plutonium Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for at the end of the nuclear fuel cycle; and what the Energy and Climate Change whether his Department reasons are for the time taken to make that decision. plans to underwrite the construction costs of the power [172277] station at Hinkley Point; what the terms of the £10 billion loan guarantee for that power station announced in the Michael Fallon: The Government’s position on plutonium Spending Review are; whether the strike price will be management, as set out in our December 2011 consultation updated in line with the Consumer Prices Index or response, is that converting the plutonium into MOX is Retail Prices Index; whether his discussions with investors the most credible and technologically mature option for have included provision for future alterations of the reuse, but that we remain open to any alternative proposals strike price (a) upwards or (b) downwards; if he will that offer better value to the taxpayer. make it his policy that any increase in anticipated costs As part of the work to consider alternative proposals, for Hinkley C will not result in any further funding the NDA has been working closely with both GE Hitachi from (i) the public purse and (ii) bill payers to complete on their Prism reactor and with Candu on their EC6 the project; and if he will make a statement. [172139] reactors. The NDA has prepared advice for DECC on these alternatives as well as on the reuse as MOX Michael Fallon: The Secretary of State for Energy option. and Climate Change, the right hon. Member for Kingston The NDA’s advice will help us to understand the and Surbiton (Mr Davey), made a full statement to technical and commercial risks associated with all the Parliament on 21 October 2013, Official Report, options and form part of our considerations about how columns 23-25, on the key commercial terms for Hinkley we should progress this work. In due course the NDA Point investment contract. will publish its planned public version of that advice, as HM Treasury announced in June that Hinkley Point announced on 1 August. It will provide information C qualifies for a UK Guarantee, but no agreement has about the work that has been done and present views yet been reached with the investors in Hinkley Point C about the various options proposed for plutonium about the terms of any such Guarantee. The Strike management. It is not intended to be a final decision on Price which has recently been announced will not change the technology we will use to manage our plutonium. as a result of any Guarantee. As noted in our 2011 consultation response, there The Strike Price will be fully indexed to CPI. There will be many steps to go through before we reach the will be operational cost review arrangements, including point of taking a final decision. This is expected to at 15 and 25 years, to reassess operating costs and include a competitive tendering and procurement process adjust the strike price if necessary. to help secure best value to the taxpayer; only when the Government is confident that its preferred option could Oil: Scotland be implemented safely and securely, that it is affordable, deliverable, and offers value for money, will it be in a position to proceed. Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what recent meetings he has had Radioactive Waste with representatives from oil import and distribution companies, with regards to increasing the amount of oil Paul Flynn: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy imported into Scotland; and if he will make a statement. and Climate Change for what reasons his Department [R] [172258] has decided not to hold stakeholder information and engagement meetings in (a) Scotland and (b) Northern Michael Fallon: DECC Ministers have been engaging Ireland in association with his Department’s national regularly with representatives from the oil industry with public consultation on the Geological Disposal Facility regards to contingency planning for oil in Scotland. siting process review. [171989] 275W Written Answers24 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 276W

Michael Fallon: The stakeholder events are supplementary on advertising with (a) The Guardian newspaper, (b) to the consultation on a revised siting process for a The Guardian website and (c) The Guardian Media geological disposal facility (GDF), which follows standard Group in (i) 2009-10, (ii) 2010-11, (iii) 2011-12 and (iv) Government consultation procedure and is a full 12 weeks 2012-13. [171547] long. The events have been planned to cover as wide a geographical spread as is proportionate and cost-effective. Gregory Barker [holding answer 18 October 2013]: Nuclear waste policy is a devolved issue and since From the Department’s financial records, two direct policy in Scotland for the management of higher level payments have been identified attributable to advertisements radioactive waste is not geological disposal, the consultation appearing in The Guardian in 2009-10 (£5,000) and in has not been issued by the Scottish Government. 2012-13 (£2,000). DECC on occasion uses agencies to manage newspaper The Guardian advertising which may include advertisements placed in The Guardian. We are not able to identify payments that Julian Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy they may have made on our behalf without incurring and Climate Change how much his Department spent disproportionate cost.

5MC Ministerial Corrections24 OCTOBER 2013 Ministerial Corrections 6MC Ministerial Correction The full answer given was as follows: Hugh Robertson: In 2010-11, 131 staff left the Foreign Thursday 24 October 2013 and Commonwealth Office (FCO), at a cost of £15.3 million. 118 of these left under old exit schemes. In 2011-12, 89 staff left the FCO, at a cost of £5.3 million. In 2012-13, 55 staff left the FCO, at a cost of £4 million. FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE The correct answer should have been: Redundancy Hugh Robertson: The Foreign and Commonwealth Office Jackie Doyle-Price: To ask the Secretary of State for made one member of staff redundant on compulsory terms in Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how many staff in financial year 2011-12 (who received a compensation period his Department were made redundant in (a) 2010-11, in lieu of notice); there were no compulsory redundancies (b) 2011-12 and (c) 2012-13; and how many such staff in 2010-11 or 2012-13, however, the Office has run several voluntary exit schemes over this period and the details of received payments in lieu of notice. [170369] these are: [Official Report, 14 October 2013, Vol. 568, c. 546-47W.] In 2010-11, 131 staff left the Foreign and Commonwealth Letter of correction from Hugh Robertson: Office (FCO), at a cost of £15.3 million. 118 of these left under An error has been identified in the written answer old exit schemes. given to the hon. Member for Thurrock (Jackie Doyle-Price) In 2011-12, 89 staff left the FCO, at a cost of £5.3 million. on 14 October 2013. In 2012-13, 55 staff left the FCO, at a cost of £4 million.

ORAL ANSWERS

Thursday 24 October 2013

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 417 BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS—continued Adults: Skills...... 420 Royal Mail ...... 419 Apprenticeships ...... 430 Royal Mail ...... 424 Beneficial Ownership ...... 427 Royal Mail ...... 428 Copyright...... 431 Small Business ...... 417 EU Membership ...... 425 Small Businesses ...... 427 Green Investment Bank ...... 422 Topical Questions ...... 431 Minimum Wage ...... 422 University Students: Liverpool ...... 423 Regional Growth...... 429 WRITTEN STATEMENTS

Thursday 24 October 2013

Col. No. Col. No. ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 21WS HOME DEPARTMENT...... 22WS Balance of Competences Review...... 21WS DNA and Fingerprint Databases ...... 23WS National DNA Database Ethics Group ...... 22WS

ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL TRANSPORT ...... 23WS AFFAIRS...... 22WS Haulage: Road Tank Vehicle Compliance ...... 24WS Agriculture and Fisheries Council...... 22WS HS2...... 23WS WRITTEN ANSWERS

Thursday 24 October 2013

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 233W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 269W Business: Carbon Emissions...... 233W Climate Change ...... 269W Employment: Parents...... 233W Climate Change Convention ...... 271W Engineers: Females ...... 234W Energy...... 271W Higher Education: Admissions ...... 234W Energy: Billing ...... 272W Minimum Wage: Apprentices...... 235W Energy: Prices ...... 272W Royal Mail ...... 235W Fracking: Clwyd...... 273W Trade Competitiveness ...... 235W Hinkley Point C Power Station ...... 273W Training: Older Workers...... 236W Oil: Scotland ...... 273W Plutonium ...... 274W CABINET OFFICE...... 266W Radioactive Waste...... 274W Government Departments: ICT ...... 266W The Guardian...... 275W Implementation Unit and Delivery Unit ...... 267W Public Consultation ...... 267W ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS...... 231W Bovine Tuberculosis: South West ...... 231W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 220W Gangmasters...... 231W Council Tax: Arrears...... 220W Marine Conservation Zones...... 232W Empty Property: Shops...... 221W Redundancy...... 232W Weed Control...... 233W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 221W Betting Shops...... 221W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE .... 219W Broadband: East Riding ...... 221W China ...... 219W Telecommunications: Billing ...... 221W Iran...... 219W Telephone Services...... 222W Maldives ...... 220W Telephone Services...... 220W DEFENCE...... 241W Contractorisation...... 241W HEALTH...... 243W Syria...... 242W Accident and Emergency Departments ...... 243W Ambulance Services ...... 244W EDUCATION...... 236W Blood: Contamination ...... 247W Education Endowment Foundation ...... 236W Cancer: Drugs...... 248W GCSE ...... 236W Electronic Cigarettes ...... 249W Schools: Admissions ...... 237W Fertility ...... 250W Young Offenders: Employment and Training...... 237W General Practitioners: Barrow in Furness ...... 250W Col. No. Col. No. HEALTH—continued NORTHERN IRELAND ...... 222W Health Services: Worcestershire ...... 250W North-South Review ...... 222W NHS: Innovation ...... 250W Organs: Donors ...... 251W PRIME MINISTER ...... 222W School Milk ...... 251W Oil: Scotland ...... 222W Telemedicine ...... 252W TRANSPORT ...... 253W A27 ...... 253W HOME DEPARTMENT...... 222W A417 ...... 253W Asylum: Syria ...... 222W Electric Vehicles ...... 254W Christopher Tappin...... 223W High Speed 2 Railway Line ...... 254W Detainees: Young People...... 223W Humber Bridge ...... 254W Entry Clearances: Syria...... 223W Large Goods Vehicles ...... 255W Ibrahim Magag ...... 224W Motor Vehicles: Electronic Equipment ...... 255W Illegal Immigrants...... 224W Parking ...... 256W Illegal Immigrants: Employment...... 224W Public Footpaths...... 256W Immigrants: English Language ...... 224W Railways: Tickets ...... 257W Immigrants: Syria ...... 225W Rescue Services: Belfast ...... 257W Immigration...... 226W Rescue Services: Liverpool...... 257W Immigration: Greater London ...... 226W Rescue Services: Stornoway ...... 258W Immigration: Married People...... 227W Roads: Accidents ...... 258W Immigration: Scotland ...... 227W Roads: Lighting ...... 259W Immigration: Stratford...... 229W Telephone Services...... 259W Members: Correspondence ...... 229W Syria...... 230W TREASURY ...... 242W UK Visas and Immigration...... 230W Stamp Duty Land Tax ...... 242W VAT: Energy...... 243W HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION ...... 238W WALES...... 238W House of Commons Galleries ...... 238W Armed Forces ...... 238W Parliamentary Tours ...... 238W Buildings...... 239W Devolution...... 240W INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 267W Domestic Fire Safety (Wales) Measure 2011 ...... 240W Afghanistan ...... 267W Exports ...... 240W African Union...... 268W Official Engagements ...... 240W Bangladesh...... 268W Politics and Government...... 241W Developing Countries: Females...... 269W Public Expenditure...... 241W Transparency of Lobbying, Non-party Campaigning and Trade Union Administration JUSTICE...... 262W Bill ...... 241W Bail ...... 262W British Indian Ocean Territory...... 262W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 260W Corruption: EU Law...... 263W Cold Weather Payments: East Riding ...... 260W EU Justice and Home Affairs...... 264W Housing Benefit ...... 260W Food Banks...... 264W Self-employed ...... 260W HM Courts and Tribunals Service: Wales ...... 264W Social Security Benefits: EU Nationals ...... 261W Prison Sentences: Wales ...... 265W Social Security Benefits: Medical Examinations..... 261W Protection from Harassment Act 1997 ...... 266W Universal Credit...... 261W Victims’ Commissioner ...... 266W Welfare State: Northern Ireland...... 262W MINISTERIAL CORRECTION

Thursday 24 October 2013

Col. No. FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE .... 5MC Redundancy...... 5MC Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. The Bound Volumes will also be sent to Members who similarly express their desire to have them. No proofs of the Daily Reports can be supplied. Corrections which Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked in the Daily Report, but not telephoned, and the copy containing the Corrections must be received at the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

not later than Thursday 31 October 2013

STRICT ADHERENCE TO THIS ARRANGEMENT GREATLY FACILITATES THE PROMPT PUBLICATION OF THE VOLUMES

Members may obtain excerpts of their Speeches from the Official Report (within one month from the date of publication), on application to the Stationery Office, c/o the Editor of the Official Report, House of Commons, from whom the terms and conditions of reprinting may be ascertained. Application forms are available at the Vote Office.

PRICES AND SUBSCRIPTION RATES DAILY PARTS Single copies: Commons, £5; Lords, £4. Annual subscriptions: Commons, £865; Lords, £600. LORDS VOLUME INDEX obtainable on standing order only. Details available on request. BOUND VOLUMES OF DEBATES are issued periodically during the session. Single copies: Commons, £105; Lords, £60 (£100 for a two-volume edition). Standing orders will be accepted. THE INDEX to each Bound Volumeof House of Commons Debates is published separately at £9·00 and can be supplied to standing order. All prices are inclusive of postage Volume 569 Thursday No. 62 24 October 2013

CONTENTS

Thursday 24 October 2013

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 417] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills

Business of the House [Col. 439] Statement—(Tom Brake)

Backbench Business Interest Rate Swap Derivatives [Col. 456] Motion—(Guto Bebb)—agreed to Aviation Strategy [Col. 507] Motion—(Mrs Ellman)—agreed to

Share Capital (Businesses) [Col. 549] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall Planning and Housing Supply [Col. 147WH] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Written Statements [Col. 21WS]

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 219W] [see index inside back page]

Ministerial Correction [Col. 5MC]