Thursday Volume 516 14 October 2010 No. 52

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Thursday 14 October 2010

£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2010 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Parliamentary Click-Use Licence, available online through the Office of Public Sector Information website at www.opsi.gov.uk/click-use/ Enquiries to the Office of Public Sector Information, Kew, Richmond, Surrey TW9 4DU; e-mail: [email protected] 467 14 OCTOBER 2010 468

cohesion that I described. The chances for people in House of Commons settled communities without a grasp of English to acquire that grasp are essential if they are going to learn Thursday 14 October 2010 and work.

Mr David Ruffley (Bury St Edmunds) (Con): Evidence The House met at half-past Ten o’clock from the excellent West Suffolk college in my constituency suggests that those who participate in adult learning PRAYERS increase their activity in the third sector. Given the necessary constraint on public spending, would the Minister perhaps give us a clue as to whether he is going [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] to encourage more co-payment of fees?

Mr Hayes: Any clues offered on that subject would Oral Answers to Questions do me no good at all. It would be entirely inappropriate to prejudge the discussions on the comprehensive spending review. May I just say how welcome it is to see my hon. Friend in the Chamber today? BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS Adult Education

The Secretary of State was asked— 2. Mr Virendra Sharma (Ealing, Southall) (Lab): What assessment he has made of the likely effects on Adult and Community Learning development of small businesses of reductions in spending on adult education. [17253] 1. Eric Ollerenshaw (Lancaster and Fleetwood) (Con): The Minister for Further Education, Skills and Lifelong What plans he has for the future of adult and community Learning (Mr John Hayes): The hon. Gentleman will be learning; and if he will make a statement. [17252] aware that the results of the spending review will not be announced until next week. However, a key consideration The Minister for Further Education, Skills and Lifelong has been how we best ensure the skills of our nation are Learning (Mr John Hayes): Adult and community learning improved. I can also assure him that we have modelled make a vital contribution to building a big society the impact of our proposals on businesses and individuals. founded on social mobility, social justice and social Skills are crucial to delivering growth and will play a cohesion. We will strive to reinvigorate adult and community key role in our agenda. learning to make it part of the wider learning continuum and to enable providers to respond to the learning needs Mr Virendra Sharma: I thank the Minister for that of their communities. answer. Does he agree that adult education provides essential work skills for some of my most vulnerable Eric Ollerenshaw: I thank my hon. Friend for that constituents and that 40% reductions in spending on answer. Has he managed to see research from the National adult education will hit those constituents, and consequently Institute of Adult Continuing Education that demonstrates small businesses, hardest—when they are both vital in that 28% of adult learners show an increased involvement providing economic growth to tackle the deficit? in social, community and volunteering activity as a direct result of their learning? Does he agree that that Mr Hayes: The hon. Gentleman is right that small demonstrates the vital role that adult education will businesses form the backbone of our economy, and it is have to play in contributing to the big society? our job to ensure that they get the support they need. An advanced economy needs advanced skills, and backing Mr Hayes: Yes, indeed. As it happens, I have with me business and providing growth means investing in skills. the response to the study that he describes. The As I have said, he would not expect me to prejudge the transformative power of adult learning is well understood CSR, but he can be assured that the team on the Front by this Government. We know that adult learning changes Bench fully appreciates the power and value of skills. lives by changing life chances. It gives some of the most disadvantaged people in our community their chance to Mrs Anne Main (St Albans) (Con): Will the Minister gain learning. It is frequently progressive to further tell me whether his Department has made any progress learning and takes them to the world of work. This on the skills needed for small businesses such as those in Government unequivocally back adult learning. the curry industry and whether there has been any progress on trying to develop additional learning skills Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): In our multicultural for that industry? big society, which is being created, what specific help will there be for those who do not have English as a first Mr Hayes: As my hon. Friend knows, because we language to help them acquire these skills? have discussed the matter—by the way, I pay tribute to her work in that field—just this week I met my counterpart Mr Hayes: It is absolutely right—in the spirit in from Bangladesh to discuss the matter. [Interruption.] which I have answered the earlier question—that we Sadly, we were not sharing a samosa at the time. I have should consider the particular needs of communities in asked my hon. Friend to make representations to the the way that the right hon. Gentleman makes clear. Department to talk about her work with that industry Language is critical—it is critical in building the social to deliver the skills that that industry needs. 469 Oral Answers14 OCTOBER 2010 Oral Answers 470

Tuition Fees has said that it is not possible to stop people paying their fees up front. Will that not create the unfair 3. Mr Charles Kennedy (Ross, Skye and Lochaber) situation in which those born into privilege, such as the (LD): What plans he has for the future level of the cap Prime Minister and the Chancellor of the Exchequer to on tuition fees which may be levied by universities; and pick two at random, can get a huge discount for paying if he will make a statement. [17254] up front, while the bright child from a poor background who makes it to Oxford or Cambridge will pay even more? How is that fair? The Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (Vince Cable): We welcome Lord Browne’s Vince Cable: We are anxious to ensure a fairer solution independent report on higher education, which makes than the existing graduate contribution system that we recommendations about the structure and level of graduate inherited. The right hon. Gentleman has used the analogy contributions. We are looking at his proposals carefully of mortgage payments, which is interesting. No building and considering a contribution level of £7,000. society or bank that I am aware of would exempt people from any payments until they were earning Mr Kennedy: My right hon. Friend knows the reasons, £21,000 a year, which is the progressive element that we which are well documented, why I cannot support the are trying to introduce. He has rightly referred to the thrust and direction of Government policy on this one. difficulties that would arise if certain Russell group Given the inevitable, and indeed immediate, ramifications institutions were allowed to charge very large variable of any policy change for the tertiary sector in England contributions. That is why I made no commitment on on Russell group universities in Scotland, is he willing Tuesday on how we would deal with that problem, on between now and next May to enter into open-minded which we need to reflect further. He is right that there is discussions with all the political parties in Scotland to an issue of fairness, which we will address. see whether a modus vivendi can none the less be achieved to maintain some of the principles for which Lorely Burt (Solihull) (LD): Will my right hon. Friend we have argued long and hard where Scottish tertiary do all that he can to stop higher education from sector education is concerned? disintegrating into a free market free-for-all, either by imposing a cap or by requiring a high proportion of Vince Cable: That is a constructive suggestion. I am additional fees levied by some of the top universities to happy to do exactly what my right hon. Friend has said. be paid out in bursaries to poorer students? To reinforce the point, yesterday the principal—the vice-chancellor equivalent—of Glasgow university, where Vince Cable: Yes, my hon. Friend is quite right; there I know that my right hon. Friend is a rector and with has to be choice and there will be some competition which I have an association, said in relation to the between universities, which is welcome. That is very far growing funding crisis in Scottish universities: short of a laissez-faire free market. We do not want “I believe we need to adopt a graduate contribution model that that. There has to be protection for low-income students is properly designed, progressive and one which requires those when they graduate. We will build in those protections who earn more during their lifetime to pay back more to society and will ensure that there is a proper progressive scheme. in order to fund higher education.” That is exactly what we are doing. Local Enterprise Partnerships

Mr John Denham (Southampton, Itchen) (Lab): On 4. John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness) (Lab/Co-op): Tuesday, the Social Market Foundation published an What steps he plans to take to ensure that businesses in analysis of how the Business Secretary’s £7,000 a year deprived areas receive support through local enterprise minimum fee will hit different graduates. It shows that partnerships. [17255] the hardest hit will be graduates who earn £27,000 a year, while students who get help from the bank of The Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation mum and dad to pay off early will get a £12,000 discount and Skills (Mr Mark Prisk): First, I congratulate the on the cost of their degree. Is that fair? hon. Gentleman on his promotion to the Opposition Front Bench as a shadow Transport Minister. Vince Cable: It would not be fair, if that were the Local enterprise partnerships will be a vital element outcome. That particular analysis does not properly in our new framework for economic development. At consider the true present value of the payments that the same time, we are planning to modernise business people will have to make. There has been some excellent support to improve both access to information and the research on the operation of different interest rates in quality of advice. That will be especially important to order to produce a genuinely fair and progressive outcome, firms in remote or deprived areas. which Government Members want and which I hope that the right hon. Gentleman still wants. John Woodcock: I thank the Minister for that answer and for his kind words. Does he accept that the recovery Mr Denham: When my building society starts asking is currently very fragile? What interim measures will he me to pay my mortgage in net present value, I will do so. put in place while the regional growth fund is being Until then, I will talk pounds and pence like everybody established and will he commit to funding the vital else. marina project in my constituency? If the Business Secretary allows universities such as Oxford and Cambridge to charge £10,000 or £12,000 a Mr Prisk: The hon. Gentleman has astutely got on to year, does he recognise that the gap between the few and the record his local project and I commend him for that, the many will get wider? The Higher Education Minister but he will understand that a week before the comprehensive 471 Oral Answers14 OCTOBER 2010 Oral Answers 472 spending review I am not going to pre-empt such matters. places—a record for the apprenticeship programme. I will say, however, that the combination of making sure The National Apprenticeship Service has assured me that we have genuine economic development partnerships that we are on track to deliver on this commitment. that are rooted in the communities and ensuring that they are a genuine partnership between business and Gordon Birtwistle: I am particularly pleased to hear civic leaders will enable local areas such as Barrow and of the efforts being made to fund more apprenticeships Furness to set their own priorities and not have Whitehall and I thank the Minister for his involvement in securing telling them what they should do. this scheme. However, I am concerned that many businesses in my constituency who want to take on more apprentices Laura Sandys (South Thanet) (Con): Although South are struggling with access, support and advice. Has the Thanet is in one of the richest regions in the south-east, Minister, or the agency responsible for the scheme, it is the 64th-most deprived district in the country. Does made any advertising plans to broaden participation in the Minister agree that LEPs must be there to support this excellent scheme? the most deprived districts even within richer regions? Mr Hayes: Yes; we appreciate the hon. Gentleman’s Mr Prisk: One of the great advantages of moving point. I have asked my officials to look closely at these away from the one-size-fits-all general regional development matters. We appreciate that some of the supply-side agencies is that local enterprise partnerships can respond barriers to small businesses, in particular, getting involved to local needs. I know that my hon. Friend, who fights in apprenticeships need to be lifted. We know that to her corner for her constituents well, will make sure that rebuild the apprenticeship programme after the sorry that happens. state it was left in by the previous regime—I do not want to be unnecessarily unkind, but I emphasise the Mr Gordon Marsden (Blackpool South) (Lab): Yesterday, word “unnecessarily”—we will have to do a lot of work PricewaterhouseCoopers warned of half a million lost to involve more businesses to satisfy our demands and private sector jobs with the Government’s scrapping of learner wishes. schools, hospitals and road contracts. Meanwhile, Ministers from the Departments for Business, Innovation and Andrew Stephenson: I thank the Minister for the Skills and for Communities and Local Government answer that he has just given my hon. Friend the Member continue squabbling about what local enterprise partnerships for Burnley (Gordon Birtwistle). How will the Minister can do, blocking resources that the private sector says it ensure that apprenticeship schemes are made available needs now. Why should businesses believe that the to all people, not just young people? Minister and his colleagues have any plan for local growth or jobs when they are in such a shambles and Mr Hayes: My hon. Friend is right that we need to chaos over LEPs? consider closely not just the apprenticeships that are available to people as they leave school or college, but Mr Prisk: We have inherited a situation in which the those for people who want to reskill or upskill. Lord funds have run out, as the Labour party has said. That Leitch, in a report that the previous Administration is why we are focusing on the things that really matter— commissioned, made it clear that that is vital because of tackling the public deficit to keep interest rates lower the demographics, the challenges that we face and the for longer, making sure that small businesses see their competitive pressures from those countries that have corporation tax go down and tackling red tape. The invested in apprenticeships. We will certainly take his Labour party failed to deal with all that, but we will. remarks on board. Apprenticeships Mr Russell Brown (Dumfries and Galloway) (Lab): What preliminary discussions has the Department had 5. Gordon Birtwistle (Burnley) (LD): How many with private sector employers who are about to provide apprenticeship places his Department plans to fund in those many hundreds, if not thousands, of apprenticeships? 2010-11. [17256] Does the Department have a target or time scale for delivering them? 6. Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con): How many apprenticeship places his Department plans to fund in 2010-11. [17257] Mr Hayes: I do not want to be repetitive, Mr Speaker, and you would not let be so, but I make it absolutely The Minister for Further Education, Skills and Lifelong clear that almost as soon as we entered government we Learning (Mr John Hayes): Just days after taking office transferred an additional £150 million into the we announced— apprenticeship budget to create extra apprenticeships. Yes, of course, I am working with businesses, small and Mr Speaker: Order. It is always a terrible pain to have large, to make that dream—that vision—a reality. Indeed, to interrupt the mellifluous tones of the Minister, but I we held a consultation on that over the summer, which I think he meant to make it clear that questions five and know the hon. Gentleman will have studied closely. six are grouped together. Science and Innovation Mr Hayes: I am always grateful for your benevolence and advice on these matters, Mr Speaker. 7. Stephen Metcalfe (South Basildon and East Thurrock) Days after taking office we announced an additional (Con): What steps he is taking to ensure that Britain’s 50,000 apprenticeships over the financial year, taking science and innovation sector contributes to economic the total to be delivered this year to well over 300,000 growth. [17258] 473 Oral Answers14 OCTOBER 2010 Oral Answers 474

The Minister for Universities and Science (Mr David As the US, France, Germany and China are increasing Willetts): Science and innovation are critical to our their investment in science and research to drive economic future prosperity and strongly supported by this growth, is not this just one more reason why those who Government. As part of the spending review, we are thought we had the Sage of Westminster and Two continuing to strengthen the way we support science Brains running the ship are finding that we actually and innovation, and improving the way they contribute have Arthur Daley and the rest of the cast of “Minder” to economic growth. running the sails? Stephen Metcalfe: I thank my right hon. Friend for his answer. I am sure that we all agree that the Government Mr Willetts: The countries that the hon. Gentleman have a very important role to play in supporting science cites—incidentally, I welcome him to his new position and innovation, but there are many other organisations on the Front Bench—do not have the mess in the public and businesses that need to come together to support finances that we inherited as a result of the performance more scientific research. What steps can his Department of his Government. None of them is borrowing at the take to foster the big society approach to more research high level that we inherited, yet despite that, we remain and development? strongly committed to science and excellent research in our universities. Mr Willetts: In Britain we are very fortunate to have some very substantial charities that support scientific Small Business Finance research, especially medical research, such as the Wellcome Trust and Cancer Research UK. Indeed, only this week I was able to announce a £50 million joint project on 8. James Morris (Halesowen and Rowley Regis) (Con): tumour profiling to improve cancer treatment between What recent representations he has received on access the Medical Research Council and Cancer Research UK. to finance for small businesses. [17260] Mr David Lammy (Tottenham) (Lab): The Minister will be aware that knowledge transfer partnerships mean 9. Jake Berry (Rossendale and Darwen) (Con): What that the Russell group universities contribute £2 billion recent representations he has received on access to to British exports. Is he surprised, therefore, that Lord finance for small businesses. [17261] Browne dedicated just 300 words in a 30,000-word report to the employer contribution? Will the Minister 15. Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con): What say more than his colleagues have about the contribution recent representations he has received on access to that employers will make to higher education funding? finance for small businesses. [17270] Mr Willetts: It is good to see the right hon. Gentleman in the House, and I look back to our exchanges when he The Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation was a Minister with responsibilities in this area. Of and Skills (Mr Mark Prisk): The Government believe course, when he was a Minister in the Department, he that improving access to finance is vital for small businesses. was one of the people who commissioned Lord Browne’s In response to our formal consultation on access to review and agreed its terms of reference. I very much credit, we received more than 170 representations, and regret that in his first intervention on the review, he has we will respond to them shortly. In addition, yesterday not welcomed the fact that Lord Browne discharged the the British Bankers Association published its taskforce remit that he was set. It is very important that businesses report on business lending, which has 17 separate contribute, alongside individuals and the taxpayer, and recommendations. The Government welcome the progress we are pursuing that as part of the CSR. made by the taskforce to date. Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con): Does the Minister accept that the performance of higher education James Morris: I thank the Minister for his answer. in engaging with the private sector varies considerably? Many small businesses in my constituency and in the Will he consider making the handing out of research broader black country are still complaining about their grants conditional on institutions finding private sector inability to get capital to grow their businesses. Does he partners? agree that this is now becoming a vital issue? Will he outline the steps that the Government are going to take Mr Willetts: That is a very important point, and we to ensure that we get that capital into those businesses, certainly welcome business backing for research, alongside which are absolutely vital to the future of the region public funding. There is very important evidence that and the areas that I represent in generating private public funding for research can be complemented by sector jobs growth? business backing. If I recall correctly, one of the best pieces of evidence on the subject is a research paper Mr Prisk: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. That is where one of the authors is now an official in Her why, right away, within a month, we extended the enterprise Majesty’s Treasury, so it is a document that we particularly finance guarantee by £200 million to help up to 2,000 more value. businesses. More than that, we have been actively pressing Mr Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op): In the banks to sort out the lending code, to deal with mid-September, apparently preparing the way for big information so that it is more transparent, and to cuts in the science and research budget, the Secretary of ensure that businesses have the opportunity to appeal. State managed to insult hundreds of hard-working Yesterday, the taskforce reported back, and we will British scientists by implying on the “Today” programme study its proposals. Let me make it clear, however, that that as far as this Government are concerned, the real test “something in the order of 45 per cent of…research grants…were now will be for the banks’ words to be matched by their going…to research that was not…excellent”. actions. 475 Oral Answers14 OCTOBER 2010 Oral Answers 476

Jake Berry: Small businesses in my constituency, Gordon Banks (Ochil and South Perthshire) (Lab): I which includes some of this country’s leading manufacturers, do not believe that the Minister is really focusing his are reliant on credit insurance. What steps are being attention on the question. By his own Department’s taken to ensure that such insurance remains available to definition, small enterprises are those with zero to them? 49 employees, and they have an average turnover of less than £3 million. How will the new business growth fund Mr Prisk: My hon. Friend is right to raise that issue, proposed yesterday by the British Bankers Association which he has discussed with me in the past. This is a help those businesses, given that businesses will have to particularly acute problem for those in the construction have a turnover of between £10 million and £100 million sector. We have sought assurances from the principal to apply and the average turnover of a small business is insurers in this area that they have now put in place for £3 million? the coming year a sufficient risk capability, and they have given us those assurances. As with the banks, we Mr Prisk: May I first welcome the hon. Gentleman to will be closely scrutinising this to ensure that what they his position? Unfortunately, however, his first question have said they have done is implemented in the coming confuses two matters. The growth fund is about investing months. equity into mid-cap businesses, as I described to the hon. Member for West Bromwich West (Mr Bailey). Micro-businesses, which are very important, are an Jason McCartney: I echo my hon. Friends in pointing entirely different animal. That is where bank lending is out that one of the biggest issues that I am facing in my crucial, and that is what we are dealing with. We are constituency is the lack of lending to small and medium- particularly keen to ensure that there is a proper lending sized businesses. In addition, Lloyds TSB has announced arrangement for micro-businesses, and we are talking to in the past month that it is closing the only branch in a the banks about how we can get one, but Members market town called Meltham. In stressing to the banks should not confuse capital investment and bank lending. that they need to get lending, will the Minister also They are two different things. stress that they need to start serving our communities? Grocery Supply Code of Practice Mr Prisk: This is something that we have raised with the banks. On Monday, however, I want to go further—that 10. Andrew George (St Ives) (LD): When he intends is when we will convene our new small business economic to introduce an ombudsman to enforce the grocery forum with the express intention of bringing Government, supply code of practice. [17264] businesses and the banks together so that we can deal with these issues and start to ensure that credit is The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, available for all businesses, large and small. Innovation and Skills (Mr Edward Davey): May I begin by recognising how long and hard my hon. Friend has campaigned on this issue, and indeed how successful he Mr Adrian Bailey (West Bromwich West) (Lab/Co-op): has been? He will know that the coalition statement The Secretary of State has rightly commented on the commits the Government to introducing what we are obligations of state-supported banks to do more to help now calling a groceries code adjudicator, and in our our small businesses in the interests of the national response to the consultation on 3 August, we set out economy. Will the Minister tell us whether the new how we would take that forward. I am pleased to be able growth fund set up by the banking taskforce and announced to tell him that we now have approval to introduce a yesterday will have on its board a Government representative draft Bill this Session, and that the aim is to publish it in order to influence policy decisions? for pre-legislative scrutiny before the end of the year.

Mr Prisk: We met the banks yesterday and are perfectly Andrew George: I am very grateful to the Minister. willing to engage with them on how that could happen. The long-awaited code is now in place, but without an We may well wish to ensure that the Government have a adjudicator it is like having rules for rugby without a stake in that role, but as we received the recommendations referee. As the initiative has cross-party support and we just yesterday, I am sure the hon. Gentleman and the have an extended Session, is it not possible to implement Committee that he chairs will understand that we want it this Session? to examine them more closely. The new growth fund is a positive step which will deal with the gap that Rowlands Mr Davey: I very much hope that my hon. Friend will identified in the case of mid-cap businesses. It is a engage in the pre-legislative scrutiny of the draft Bill as welcome step, and the Government want to work with actively as he did in campaigning for the code. Because the banks to make it work effectively. we have not even published the draft Bill yet, it is a little early to say when the actual Bill will be introduced or whether that will be this Session or next, but I will keep Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab): But him and the House informed. does the Minister agree with the Deputy Prime Minister, who said on 27 April on Radio 5 Live about state-owned Non-Departmental Public Bodies banks not lending enough to small businesses: “What we’re saying is that the directors of those banks should 11. Jesse Norman (Hereford and South Herefordshire) be held responsible and if they fail to honour those lending (Con): What progress he has made in reducing the targets they should be sacked”? number of non-departmental public bodies and executive agencies sponsored by his Department, with particular Mr Prisk: I have learned to make a habit of always reference to bodies responsible for further and higher agreeing with the Deputy Prime Minister. education. [17265] 477 Oral Answers14 OCTOBER 2010 Oral Answers 478

The Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Vince Cable: I accept that the test my hon. Friend sets Skills (Vince Cable): We are taking radical steps to is a good test of the Government’s green credentials. reform the network of bodies sponsored by my Department. The bank must be ambitious and it must lever in We announced this morning that we would abolish substantial amounts of private capital. We must not be 17 partner organisations, merge eight, reconstitute two excessively constrained and must open up the possibility as charities and give further consideration to the future of subsequent expansion. I am sure we will give him a of nine more. satisfactory answer.

Jesse Norman: I thank the Secretary of State for that Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): Does excellent response. Hereford college of technology is an the right hon. Gentleman agree that if a green investment outstanding institution, and I would welcome his visiting bank is to be successful, it must embrace all the science it if he should choose to do so at some time. Like many and technology available in our country? Much of that colleges, it labours under regulation by five separate is seated in our great universities—we have over 120—but bodies covering both further and higher education. Is has he not already sold the pass? There will be substantial there further scope to streamline the regulation of bodies cuts in university budgets, which will affect towns, cities covering such combined institutions? and innovation in this country. Vince Cable: Yes, there is further scope to simplify the landscape of further education quangos, and we intend Mr Speaker: Order. Can we focus on the green investment to pursue that. There are far too many organisations, bank? making it impossible for further education colleges to do their job, and we will remove some and simplify the Vince Cable: You are right, Mr Speaker, that we have whole system greatly. strayed a little. The hon. Gentleman chaired the Select Committee Chris Leslie (Nottingham East) (Lab/Co-op): Has on Children, Schools and Families for many years, so I the Secretary of State also done a U-turn on his views am sure he knows that in my statement on Tuesday, I of Sir Philip Green, who gave advice about non- spoke about the implication of the teaching grant for departmental public bodies? Once upon a time he said, student-graduate contributions. The implications for talking about Sir Philip Green, that he had research remain to be seen till next week. “no time for billionaire tax dodgers who step off the plane from their tax havens…and have the effrontery to tell us how to…run George Freeman (Mid Norfolk) (Con): Does the our tax policies”. Secretary of State agree that the green investment bank Has he changed his mind on that as well? is a key part of the important task of shifting our low-carbon policy from one that is based on restriction, Mr Speaker: Order. We do not need a character targets and negative regulation to one based on enterprise, assessment of Sir Philip Green, what we require is innovation, science and community? Crucially, does he comments on the subject matter of the question. The also agree that the bank must be able to issue bonds? Secretary of State is welcome to volunteer them, otherwise Will he make representations to the Treasury to ensure we will move on. that its ability to do so is established in the legislation? Vince Cable: I am certainly happy to answer. I have not changed my views—I think Sir Philip Green should Vince Cable: At this stage, we are not specifying the pay his taxes in the UK. precise financial techniques that will be employed, but clearly, we will retain options and look at the variety of Green Investment Bank possibilities in future. Moreover, I would stress that the green investment bank is one of several policies that is 12. Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) driving the low-carbon economy, which also include (LD): What recent progress he has made on the reform of the electricity tariff system, the green deal creation of a green investment bank. [17266] and those that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of The Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and State for Energy and Climate Change is pursuing. Skills (Vince Cable): We remain committed to creating a Royal Mail (Yorkshire and North East) green investment bank that will support the growth, industrial transformation and greening of the UK economy. Over the summer, we made good progress on the role 13. Hugh Bayley (York Central) (Lab): What and form of the bank and its relationship with other consultation Royal Mail plans to undertake with Government policies. I will make a statement on the businesses and the public on proposals to close sorting bank shortly after the spending review. offices in Yorkshire and the North East. [17267] Simon Hughes: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, May I encourage him, in the remaining days before the Innovation and Skills (Mr Edward Davey): Decisions final settlement of Government spending is reached, to regarding the rationalisation of Royal Mail’s mail centres ensure that a green investment bank has sufficient funds are operational matters, which are the responsibility of to make it a real agent for change towards a sustainable the company’s senior management team. The Government economy as well as the ability to lever in the maximum are not directly involved in those decisions. The additional investment, and to follow the best models in rationalisation process was centred on an agreement other countries and among those proposed to the between the Communication Workers Union and Royal Government? This is a real test of the Government’s Mail. I understand that Royal Mail is not obliged to green credentials, and I hope he fights that case to the consult publicly on its internal review of proposals for wire. restructuring its mail centres. However, it commits to 479 Oral Answers14 OCTOBER 2010 Oral Answers 480 keep all interested external stakeholders informed, and The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, I believe that it has been in contact with the hon. Innovation and Skills (Mr Edward Davey): This Government Gentleman. are determined to reverse the rise in regulation that is constricting enterprise and stifling growth. We have Hugh Bayley: The hon. Gentleman and the Government introduced the one-in, one-out system of regulatory should be concerned about how the Post Office and control for domestic regulation, to bring about a Royal Mail serve their customers. Two years ago, when fundamental change in the way that regulations are Royal Mail shifted the sorting of second-class mail drawn up, introduced and implemented. from York to Leeds, it gave me a firm undertaking that We will also take a rigorous approach to tackling EU it would consult the public if ever it considered shifting regulations. The Government will engage earlier in the the sorting of first-class mail as well, and closing the Brussels policy process; take strong cross-government York sorting office. That is what the company now negotiating lines; and work to end the so-called “gold- proposes, but it has not consulted. Will the Minister plating” of EU regulations, so that when European ensure that the company consults businesses that will be rules are implemented into UK law, it is done without affected and the general public in my constituency, or putting British businesses at a competitive disadvantage. does the Government’s enthusiasm for privatising Royal Mail put them in a position in which they are no longer Mr Hollobone: May I urge the Minister to include concerned about the customer? EU regulations in the one-in, one-out system, as I understand that compliance with EU regulations costs Mr Davey: I am sure that Royal Mail will again be in this country some 3% of its annual gross domestic contact with the hon. Gentleman on those points, but product? he must tell his constituents that the experience of rationalising mail sorting centres has led not only to Mr Davey: May I reassure my hon. Friend that once efficiency improvements that reduce the costs of sorting the system is embedded with respect to domestic regulation and delivering mail, but to an improvement in customer affecting businesses and the third sector, the Government service to his constituents. If he wants quality and plan to extend it to other areas, including EU law? delivery to improve for his constituents, he should support that rationalisation. Michael Connarty (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (Lab): I note that the Minister did not address the question Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con): May I urge asked by the hon. Member for Kettering (Mr Hollobone). the Minister to consult carefully with the remote businesses Is he not willing to tell Parliament the truth that in fact and communities of the Yorkshire dales which rely business regulations are part of the common market, hugely on the Royal Mail to survive and conduct their which means that they cannot be vetoed by the business? Government? What is required is for the Government to stop the gold-plating that is done by the civil service when regulations come from Europe. Mr Davey: My hon. Friend is right that the Royal Mail needs to consider the interests of small and medium Mr Davey: The hon. Gentleman did not listen to enterprises. Indeed, it is part of our approach in the either my first answer or my second answer. The Postal Services Bill to ensure that our new policy framework Government are committed to ending gold-plating and will do that. I hope that he will be reassured that I have said from this Dispatch Box that, once the experience of rationalising mail sorting centres has led one-in, one-out system is embedded, we will apply it to to significant improvements to customer service. EU legislation.

Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab): Can the Minister explain Company Reporting (Operating and Financial Review) what guarantees he will give that a privatised Royal Mail service will continue to do business through the 16. Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD): Post Office rather than looking for other outlets and What progress has been made towards reinstating an perhaps leaving rural post offices in Yorkshire and operating and financial review to ensure that directors’ elsewhere with very little hope of survival? social and environmental duties have to be covered in company reporting; and if he will make a statement. Mr Davey: May I begin by welcoming the hon. Lady [17271] to her new role? I look forward to many weeks in Committee considering the Bill. She will know that The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, there is an agreement between Royal Mail and Post Innovation and Skills (Mr Edward Davey): The Department Office Ltd, called the inter-business agreement, and it is is currently consulting on the future of narrative reporting that agreement—not a Government guarantee—that which addresses the coalition commitment to reinstate decides that relationship. We expect and believe that an operating and financial review. The consultation that inter-business agreement will continue. closes on 19 October and we will then consider the responses and take a view on how to take this commitment Business Regulation forward by the end of the year. Roger Williams: I thank the Minister for that reply 14. Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): If he will and his active interest in this matter. I believe that this take steps to ensure that his Department’s one-in, coalition Government will be the greenest Government one-out plan for business regulation will include new ever, but we need to promote sustainable investment. business regulations originating at EU level. [17269] The OFR will have a key role to play in that, especially 481 Oral Answers14 OCTOBER 2010 Oral Answers 482 in ensuring that the same standards apply for independent Mr Prisk: It is important that businesses not only verification and financial reporting. Can the Minister press their own bank, but shop around, because there assure me that the Government will support that? tends to be an anxiety that, having been turned down by one bank, they will not be successful elsewhere—I remember Mr Davey: This Government will be the greenest that when I started my own business in the last recession. Government ever, and when he reads the consultation It is also important, if the hon. Gentleman can, to press document he will see that we have some very interesting that case on his constituents’ behalf with the British ideas about how to improve the way in which companies Bankers Association. If he does so, would he copy me report on social and environmental matters. I hope that in? If his constituents continue to have problems, I we will be able to drive up the quality of reporting and would like to ensure that the banks understand that we disclosures by companies in that area. take an interest in the plight and prospects of our small businesses. Graduate Employability Mr Baron: The measures introduced by the coalition Government to help small businesses have been a vast 17. Nigel Mills (Amber Valley) (Con): What steps he improvement on what went before under the previous is taking to encourage universities to focus on the Government. However, in the specific cases bought to employability of graduates. [17273] the Department’s attention by Members of Parliament in which commercially viable small and medium-sized The Minister for Universities and Science (Mr David enterprises are still being denied access to capital, can I Willetts): Students rightly expect better information have the Minister’s assurance that the Department will about their chances of a job after studying different do everything it can to help? courses at different universities, and universities need to do more to improve the employability of their graduates. Mr Prisk: We can and we will, and I will be happy to That is why I have asked universities to publish statements support any Member who wants to press that case. This on what they do for students’ employment prospects. is a very important issue, and it should be cross party. The vast majority have now done so. We can make a difference.

Nigel Mills: I thank the Minister for that answer. Topical Questions Does he agree that a key method of achieving increased employability are schemes such as those set up by David T1. [17277] Dr Daniel Poulter (Central Suffolk and North Nieper, a full service clothing manufacturer in Alfreton Ipswich) (Con): If he will make a statement on his in my constituency? It has agreed a scheme with departmental responsibilities. Nottingham Trent university that will ensure that students get a full range of experience and skills in the textiles The Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and sector to increase their chances of employment after Skills (Vince Cable): My Department’s responsibilities they finish their course. include helping to drive growth and rebalance the economy, which we can do by building on the strength of Mr Willetts: I agree with my hon. Friend. Indeed, one manufacturing, other knowledge industries and the science of the proposals in Lord Browne’s report that we are and research base, by helping businesses to grow by looking at very carefully is to do more to encourage the getting rid of excessive regulation and helping them accreditation of skills developed in businesses and the access credit, by being open to trade and foreign investment, workplace as part of a degree qualification. by encouraging the development of a skilled work force and by spreading opportunities and life chances to as many people as possible. Small Business Finance Dr Poulter: Working in agriculture is still an important 18. Chris Evans (Islwyn) (Lab/Co-op): What recent life choice for many people in rural areas, and I am sure representations he has received on access to finance for that, like me, the Minister would like to see a profitable small businesses. [17274] and vibrant agricultural sector. However, will he please outline what steps he will take to support vocational and apprenticeship schemes in the agricultural sector? 19. Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con): What recent representations he has received on access The Minister for Further Education, Skills and Lifelong to finance for small businesses. [17275] Learning (Mr John Hayes): Like my hon. Friend, I care about growers and farmers, because of the constituency The Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation I represent and because I know the difference that they and Skills (Mr Mark Prisk): I refer the hon. Gentlemen make to our nation. Mindful of the concerns he expressed, to the answer I gave to a similar question earlier. and of others like them, I have already asked officials to work with the sector skills council in this area to see Chris Evans: Atega Business Solutions, a new business what further apprenticeship programmes can be developed start-up based in my constituency, tells me that part in agriculture and related subjects. funding is available to it, but that in most cases it has to spend 100% of the cost before it is eligible to claim back T4. [17280] Alison Seabeck (Plymouth, Moor View) 50%, which deters it from applying. What advice would (Lab): What action is the Minister taking, alongside his the Minister give to Atega to secure funding when colleagues in the Department for Communities and money is tight? Local Government, to prevent the regional economy of 483 Oral Answers14 OCTOBER 2010 Oral Answers 484 the south-west from entering a slump because of the from the Opposition, who allowed 14 new working parochial disagreements in the region? Or are DCLG regulations every working day. We are tackling regulation; and businesses unable to agree, in the same way that the they funked it. Conservatives and Liberal Democrats seem unable to agree in the south-west? T10. [17286] John Mann (Bassetlaw) (Lab): If the Business Secretary had been able to accept my invitation The Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation to open the world’s most advanced plastics recycling and Skills (Mr Mark Prisk): I will ignore the flim-flam factory in my constituency two weeks ago, he would at the end. What matters to the hon. Lady is ensuring an have learnt that the decision to invest in this country effective partnership in her area. There is squabbling in was based on a £1 million grant from the regional Somerset and Devon, which the people concerned have development agency. How much will be available through to sort out. If they do not, they will fall behind. That is such grants to attract other overseas businesses to invest the message for them, and I hope she will support me on in my constituency in the next three years? that. Vince Cable: I am sorry that I did not have the T2. [17278] John Glen (Salisbury) (Con): Odstock opportunity to visit the hon. Gentleman’s constituency. Medical Ltd in my constituency was the first commercial I will try to make up for that in future. We want to entity to be set up under the NHS. It does vital work attract inward investment, but it was not at all clear that developing medical devices alleviating the condition of the best way of doing so was through the RDAs, which people with multiple sclerosis. Unfortunately, it is unable were duplicating each other’s work. In key overseas to access the SME support from the Department. Given countries, for example, there have often been several that its major shareholder is the local hospital, will the RDAs competing with each other, using public money Minister meet with me to discuss how it can be reclassified in a completely unstructured and unhelpful way. We are as an SME so that it can access that support and grow going to resolve that. its business, which does vital work? T6. [17282] Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con): In my Mr Prisk: This is a peculiar glitch in the way the law constituency of Pendle, many graduates earn far less works, and I would be pleased to meet my hon. Friend on average than those working in other parts of the and the business in his constituency to see whether we country. Does my right hon. Friend welcome the can wrinkle it out. Browne review’s proposals to raise the threshold for fees repayment from £15,000 to £21,000? T5. [17281] Roberta Blackman-Woods (City of Durham) (Lab): Can the Minister explain what he will do to Mr Willetts: My hon. Friend draws attention to an ensure that our universities stay at the leading edge of important feature of the Browne review, which is also research and innovation? That is especially important one reason why the analysis by the Institute for Fiscal as, for many universities, the Browne proposals will Studies suggested that the poorest 30% of students mean only replacement income, not growth and would be better off as a result of those proposals. investment money, despite the quite disgraceful hike in tuition fees proposed. Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab): Can the Minister The Minister for Universities and Science (Mr David state whether he has received the petition from the Willetts): The package proposed by Lord Browne as a Science is Vital group, which lobbied Parliament last whole is intended to put our universities on a stable and Saturday, and also say whether he has listened to the secure long-term funding basis that will enable us to group, and if not, why not? support and encourage their work in research, and we are considering carefully the new proposals from Sir James Mr Willetts: I believe that the Science is Vital group is Dyson for technology innovation centres. also presenting a petition today. I hope to meet the members of that campaign to discuss their commitment T3. [17279] Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): Further to to science and to emphasise that this Government are the excellent question from my hon. Friend the Member committed to excellent science research. for Kettering (Mr Hollobone), given the volume of regulation that comes from the EU, does the Minister T7. [17283] Mr Mark Spencer (Sherwood) (Con): The accept that unless the one-in, one-out policy applies to Minister will be aware of the thousands of companies EU regulation as well, it will have only a limited impact? that in the past have supplied Departments, an example I understand that the Minister said that the policy of which is F. J. Bamkin in my constituency, which used would apply to EU legislation in due course, but can he to supply socks to the Ministry of Defence. Can he say give us a time scale for that? what progress his Department has made in achieving the manifesto commitment to deliver Mr Prisk: There are two steps to this. One is to ensure “25 per cent of government research and procurement contracts that the practice that we follow deals with the gold-plating, through SMEs”? which has quite rightly been raised by Members on both sides of the House. That is our first step, but as my Mr Prisk: The key to changing the system is to ensure hon. Friend has pointed out—and as my hon. Friend that we open up the contracts. That is why we have the Under-Secretary of State, the hon. Member for already started to publish those contracts online, so that Kingston and Surbiton (Mr Davey) pointed out in his every business, large or small, can see what is on offer. answer earlier—we are ensuring that we deal with domestic Then we need to remove the barriers that exist, which is legislation first. We will then ensure that we look to why we are tackling things such as the repeated pre- include EU legislation. [Interruption.] I love this coming qualifications that are necessary for the same work in 485 Oral Answers14 OCTOBER 2010 Oral Answers 486 neighbouring areas. Removing those barriers, opening university top-up fees and walked through the same up the contracts—that is how we are going to hit the Lobby as me? He was also against the privatisation of targets. Royal Mail, but we now know the price of a Liberal pledge: a seat on the Government Front Bench and a Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab): Yesterday ministerial salary. What a price to pay. I spoke to Dr Paul Greatrix, registrar of the university of Nottingham. He described the Government’s Vince Cable: I have always enjoyed—[Interruption.] immigration cap as wrong-headed and perverse, because it will hamper the free trade in ideas and prevent our Mr Speaker: Order. I want to hear the Secretary of world-class international university from recruiting the State’s reply. brightest and best minds to join its highly skilled research team. What will the Minister do to ensure that our Vince Cable: I have always enjoyed joining the hon. university’s excellent reputation is maintained? Gentleman in the Division Lobby, and I have done so Vince Cable: We very much believe in the free trade of on many occasions. I have also enjoyed his humour. If ideas, and we want Britain to be open. We are looking he had followed my writings as closely as he claims to at the moment at how we can reconcile this with the have done, he would have realised that I was advocating coalition’s policy to maintain a cap on non-EU migration. the introduction of private capital into Royal Mail about six years ago. T8. [17284] Eric Ollerenshaw (Lancaster and Fleetwood) (Con): Cumbria university, which has one of its largest Mr John Leech (Manchester, Withington) (LD): Research campuses in the Lancaster part of my constituency, has by the Institute for Fiscal Studies suggests that the experienced a number of financial and managerial poorest 30% of graduates would pay less than they do problems over the past few years. Can the Minister now if the Browne review were to be implemented. comment on the university’s viability, given its new However, potential students do not automatically assume business plan? that they are going to be among the bottom 30%, so any Mr Willetts: I know that my hon. Friend has been increase in tuition fees would surely be a disincentive for closely involved with that university, as have other hon. them to apply to go to university, even if they would Members. The Higher Education Funding Council for ultimately be better off. England advises me that, with the university’s new management arrangements and its new plan, it will have Mr Willetts: We can see from the evidence that the a far better prospect for the future. introduction of fees by the previous Labour Government Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab): On Tuesday, did not have the effect that many people in all parts of Tata Steel announced its intention to close its Living the House feared. In reality, we have seen an increase in Solutions business in Shotton, with the loss of some the number of applications from students from poorer 180 jobs. This is a hammer blow to all those employees backgrounds, because they knew that they would not and their families, as well as to the local economy. Will have to pay up-front fees. That key feature of the system the Secretary of State join me in pressing the company would be maintained under Lord Browne’s proposals. to reconsider its decision, and also look at the future of the whole modular construction business? Miss Anne Begg (Aberdeen South) (Lab): A lot of the businesses in my constituency are involved in the offshore Vince Cable: I am always happy to meet Opposition oil and gas sector, which is a global business that Members who have local difficulties with local companies; depends on the movement of labour so that it can move I have already done so and I am happy to talk to the its work force around the world. That business is seriously hon. Gentleman about this. I do not know the details of concerned about the cap on immigration, and I hope the case, and I have to say at the outset that we are not that the Secretary of State is having very detailed discussions in a position to make available large amounts of public with the Home Office to ensure that that business money, but if we can help in other ways, we will. remains in the North sea and does not go elsewhere in the world. T9. [17285] Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con): Will the Secretary of State confirm his commitment to ensuring that the nation has the right kind of skills for a Vince Cable: The hon. Lady is absolutely right. I have sustainable economic recovery by supporting ambitious had many such representations, not only from that young people and adults such as those studying at industry but from others. I have had discussions with Kirklees college to improve their education and skills in the Home Secretary about this, and we are determined further education? to keep Britain open for business and attracting the kind of companies that she has in her constituency. Mr Hayes: Yes, I do indeed recognise the excellent work of our colleges. That is why we want to give them Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): more freedom, more discretion and more power to Will the Business Secretary set out the timetable for the respond to the needs of learners and local businesses. setting up of the local economic partnerships. Will he We have begun to do that during our time in government, explain which umbrella body should be used to apply and I should like to draw the House’s attention to for European funding such as the rural development today’s written statement, which goes further along programme? Will he also guide us on what the position those lines. will be on match funding going forward? Mr Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) (Lab): Does the Secretary of State remember the Lib Dem halcyon days when he Mr Speaker: One answer to those three questions will sat here on the Opposition side of the House opposing suffice. 487 Oral Answers14 OCTOBER 2010 Oral Answers 488

Mr Prisk: You are very kind, Mr Speaker. There will front-man in Westminster, with every principle dropped be a sub-regional White Paper in due course. at the first sniff of power. Will he please detail what consultation process took place with the National Union Ian Austin (Dudley North) (Lab): The deep-seated of Students before reaching his own conclusions on the structural challenges facing the west midlands economy Browne report? mean that our region has been hit harder by the downturn than anywhere else in the country, and the recovery will Vince Cable: I fondly remember my days on the take longer, too. Is the Secretary of State prepared to Glasgow city council, where we achieved much. I have meet a cross-party delegation of Members of Parliament met representatives from the National Union of Students from the west midlands and business leaders from the on several occasions. We have consulted them and continue region so that we can discuss plans to bring new industries to do so. The NUS has some useful ideas, which will and new jobs to the region? hopefully supplement our response to the Browne report. We shall continue to maintain a dialogue. Vince Cable: I am happy to do that. In recent times, I have met Opposition Members from the west midlands Several hon. Members rose— who were concerned about the car industry and others who were concerned about ceramics. I am happy to Mr Speaker: Order. All good things come to an end, meet the hon. Gentleman and his colleagues. and there is heavy pressure on time today.

Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD): My right hon. Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): On Friend has asserted the Government’s determination a point of order, Mr Speaker. that graduate contributions should be linked to ability Mr Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman is an extremely to pay. Will he therefore consider supplementing the experienced Member. He has now ratcheted up something Browne proposals with a less advantageous interest rate in the region of 31 years in the House, so he knows that for the highest earners? points of order come after statements.

Mr Willetts: We are, of course, considering Lord Mr Sheerman: This is about the statement. There is Browne’s proposals very carefully and in greater detail. no list with it. We were promised a list. We— One issue that we will certainly consider is the exact interest rate that should be applied. Mr Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman is a very dextrous parliamentarian. He will try to catch my eye Anas Sarwar (Glasgow Central) (Lab): What an during business questions and he will be able to wrap incredible transformation the Business Secretary has his various points into a beautifully textured question if made from a Labour councillor in Glasgow to a Tory he gets the opportunity. 489 14 OCTOBER 2010 Business of the House 490

Business of the House tell us whether they now intend to follow the Deputy Prime Minister and the Business Secretary in ripping up 11.32 pm their pledges? I think that their constituents deserve an answer. Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab): Will the Leader of the House give us the forthcoming business? Will the right hon. Gentleman also find time for a debate on the decision to take child benefit away from The Leader of the House of Commons (Sir George so many middle-income families while leaving it in place Young): The business for the week commencing 18 October for households earning nearly twice as much? It is will be as follows: unfair, it is unjust, and no credible explanation has been MONDAY 18 OCTOBER—Proceedings on the Parliamentary offered. We certainly heard none from the Prime Minister Voting System and Constituencies Bill (Day 2). yesterday. Given the Prime Minister’s inability to answer TUESDAY 19 OCTOBER—My right hon. Friend the Prime the Leader of the Opposition’s perfectly straightforward Minister plans to make a statement on the strategic question about the number of families who would be defence and security review, followed by Proceedings on affected, will the Leader of the House ask him to do his the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies homework, and place the information in the Library so Bill (Day 3). that we can obtain the full facts and then have a debate? WEDNESDAY 20 OCTOBER—My right hon. Friend the I am sure that that would be welcomed by the many Chancellor of the Exchequer plans to make a statement members of the Cabinet who clearly had no idea that on the comprehensive spending review, followed by the decision had been made, because the Chancellor Proceedings on the Parliamentary Voting System and decided to tell the media before he told them. Should Constituencies Bill (Day 4). not the House show some compassion to those unfortunate individuals by giving them the chance denied by the THURSDAY 21 OCTOBER—Second Reading of the Local Government Bill [Lords]. occupant of No. 11 to tell us what they think about this terrible policy? FRIDAY 22 OCTOBER—Private Members’ Bills. The provisional business for the week commencing Earlier this year the Prime Minister said that the 25 October will include: comprehensive spending review “will affect our economy, our society—indeed our whole way of MONDAY 25 OCTOBER—Proceedings on the Parliamentary Voting System and -Constituencies Bill (Day 5). life…for years, perhaps decades, to come.” In the light of that, a single day’s debate is wholly TUESDAY 26 OCTOBER—Second Reading of the Savings Accounts and Health in Pregnancy Grant Bill. inadequate. Given the scale and extent of the cuts, the House must have the time that it needs to discuss the WEDNESDAY 27 OCTOBER—Second Reading of the Postal implications for the people whom we all represent. Will Services Bill, followed by motion to approve a European the Leader of the House provide that opportunity, and document relating to economic policy co-ordination. will he confirm that the House will have a chance to THURSDAY 28 OCTOBER—General debate on the vote on the comprehensive spending review? comprehensive spending review. While the Leader of the House is thinking about his I should also like to inform the House that the answer to that question, will he explain why he has not business in Westminster Hall for 28 October will be: yet made time available for an Opposition day debate? THURSDAY 28 OCTOBER—A debate on the internet and Is it because he fears the holding of such a debate while privacy. all these bad decisions are being made? Can he also tell Hilary Benn: I thank the Leader of the House for his us why the Defence Secretary will not be making next statement. May I also welcome my hon. Friend the week’s statement on the strategic defence review? Is it Member for Warrington North (Helen Jones) and pay because the Government are afraid of allowing that as tribute to my right hon. Friend the Member for Doncaster well, given the Defence Secretary’s well-publicised views? Central (Ms Winterton). The House will be pleased to Can the Leader of the House clear up the confusion know that she has moved one seat along on our Front about a statement on cold weather payments? On Monday Bench, as a reward. the legislation was laid without the clause on higher-rate Mr Speaker, you have been clear and consistent with payments of £25 a week, and yesterday the Prime Ministers in saying that they must make major policy Minister refused to guarantee their future, saying that announcements to this House. On 9 September, the an announcement would be made next week. Today’s Leader of the House assured us that the Government Guardian quotes Government sources saying a whole would adhere to the ministerial code in this respect. load of contradictory things. When will this shambles Over the weekend, however, the findings of Lord Browne’s come to an end, so that the people who rely on those report on tuition fees were extensively leaked to the payments can have the peace of mind that they deserve? media, and this morning we heard the Minister for the Finally, can the Leader of the House tell us what Cabinet Office talking to the “Today” programme about chance the House will have to discuss the work of the the future of public bodies before talking to us. It seems Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority in time that Mr Holmes and Dr Watson, as I understand the to inform the current review, given the bureaucratic Leader of the House and his deputy were christened by burden that it continues to place on all Members, and my predecessor, have made no progress at all in dealing the cost of its operations to the taxpayer? Does he not with this serial problem. agree that Members’ time should really be spent holding Following Tuesday’s statement, will the Leader of the the Government to account, rather than doing accounts? House find time for a debate on the Browne report, so that Liberal Democrat Members in particular—who, Sir George Young: First, let me join the right hon. before the election, knowing about the deficit, signed Member for Leeds Central (Hilary Benn) in paying solemn pledges to vote against lifting the cap on fees—can tribute to the former shadow Leader of the House, the 491 Business of the House14 OCTOBER 2010 Business of the House 492 right hon. Member for Doncaster Central (Ms Winterton). I would have thought that the right hon. Gentleman She brought a ray of sunshine into the Chamber at would welcome the fact that it is the Prime Minister 11.30 every Thursday, which will now illuminate the who is to make the statement on the strategic defence dark recesses of the Whips Office. We wish her luck in review, instead of complaining about it. Could there be her new disciplinary role of enforcing Opposition policies, a subject of higher priority on which the Prime Minister the moment they have some. might come and address the House? I welcome the new shadow Leader to his post. He has On the question about IPSA, I am not sure that the inherited from his father a deep affection for, and Government would want to find time for that debate, commitment to, the House of Commons, which will but it is perfectly open to the Backbench Business stand him in good stead in the job that he now does. We Committee, which has a quota of approximately one learnt from the excellent diaries of Chris Mullin that day per week, to find time for such a debate if the issue the right hon. Gentleman was once eyed as a contender is thought to be a priority. to succeed Tony Blair as Prime Minister in 2005. The Several hon. Members rose— House will be disappointed that he did not throw his hat into the ring. There was a time when there was always a Mr Speaker: Order. A large number of hon. and right Benn on the ballot paper. I look forward to working hon. Members are seeking to catch my eye. As colleagues with the right hon. Gentleman and his new deputy, the will be aware, ordinarily I seek to ensure that all Members hon. Member for Warrington North (Helen Jones), in who wish to do so can participate, but I give notice that our efforts to strengthen the House. that is extremely unlikely today in view of the pressure Let me now deal with the points raised by the right on parliamentary time and the very important Back-Bench hon. Gentleman. The Government are making four business that is to follow. I therefore merely reiterate my statements this week, including the one that is to follow usual exhortation to Members to stick to single, short the business statement. We have averaged 2.8 statements supplementary questions, and to the Leader of the per week: we have been very forthcoming in making House to demonstrate his typical pithiness in reply. statements to the House. Mr Greg Knight (East Yorkshire) (Con): Why do we The Browne report was Lord Browne’s report; it was still have to go through the ridiculous ritual of putting not the Government’s report. The moment it was available, our clocks back every autumn, thereby plunging the my right hon. Friend the Business Secretary came to the nation into darkness by mid-afternoon? Will the Leader House and made a statement. I am sure the House will of the House give an undertaking that the Government want to debate the report, and in addition to my Liberal will not seek to talk out the private Member’s Bill on Democrat friends clarifying their view, I hope that the this subject that is due to come before the House Labour Opposition will explain exactly where they stand shortly? If he does as I ask, I suspect the only opponents on student finance, because there is open warfare between will be a handful of Scots. If that is the case, should the Leader of the Opposition and the shadow Home they not be told, “You’ve got your own Parliament. If Secretary. you don’t like it, go away and give yourselves your own Our proposed child benefit changes are scheduled to time zone”? be introduced in 2013, and there will be an opportunity to debate them. The right hon. Gentleman mentioned Sir George Young: I am grateful to my right hon. one injustice between two high-income households, but Friend for that, and I note the suggestion of independence there is another injustice that he did not address: that in respect of the time zone. If he looks at the record, he between households on much lower incomes who are will find that my hon. Friend the Member for South paying standard rate tax, and through that tax are Suffolk (Mr Yeo) introduced a private Member’s Bill in, subsidising the child benefit of higher rate payers. I I think, the last Parliament, and if he looks at the thought the Labour party stood for the many, not Hansard account of its Second Reading debate he will the few. find a speech that I made setting out my views. Notwithstanding that, when the current Bill’s turn comes I agree with the right hon. Gentleman that the to be debated, my ministerial colleague who will be comprehensive spending review is an important issue, which responding for the Government will make the Government’s is why the Government have found time for a debate, position clear, and I will pass on my right hon. Friend’s notwithstanding the Wright report recommendations, strong views. which implied that debates on spending reviews should be secured by the Backbench Business Committee. I Siobhain McDonagh (Mitcham and Morden) (Lab): note what the right hon. Gentleman said about making At the Commonwealth games closing ceremony in a time available for a second day of debate, and the few hours’ time, Prince Edward will be sitting alongside Chairman of the Committee has no doubt also noted the head of a regime accused of war crimes: President that bid. Rajapaksa of Sri Lanka. Will the Leader of the House The Opposition will get their full quota of Opposition allow a debate on whether the Commonwealth should days, and in view of the extended length of the current be giving succour in that way to countries with such Session we would be happy to enter into a dialogue on appalling human rights records, and on whether allowing how we might increase the quota to reflect that additional a member of Britain’s royal family to sit next to Sri sitting time. Lanka’s leader represents a change in Britain’s foreign policy to one that puts trade considerations ahead of On cold weather payments, as my right hon. Friend human rights? the Prime Minister said yesterday, the statement about the rate will be made after the CSR. We are committed Sir George Young: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for to making cold weather payments to those on low her question, and I understand the strength of feeling. I incomes when the weather demands it. will draw her remarks to the attention of my right hon. 493 Business of the House14 OCTOBER 2010 Business of the House 494

[Sir George Young] Sir George Young: I am sorry if there has been any discourtesy in not making information available to the Friend the Foreign Secretary and ask him to write to House. I will contact the Secretary of State for Defence her with a response to the points that she has just today and see whether we can expedite an answer. raised. Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con): One of my constituents Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD): The Leader recently brought to my attention an extraordinary, but of the House has given us the business until Thursday perfectly legal, tax avoidance scheme that shocked me 28 October. The day after that, Friday 29 October, this as well as him. I am in favour of tax incentives for House will be used for the second time for the UK growth, but this particular scheme does nothing for Youth Parliament to hold a day of debate. I am sure growth. Given the welcome recent pronouncements on that many hon. Members will be delighted to see that, tax avoidance from the Treasury, will the Leader of the as will I, as a trustee of that organisation. I wonder House consider having a debate where Members could whether this would be an appropriate time for this highlight such schemes so that the Treasury could indeed House to debate the important issue of how we can get make a bonfire of them? more young people better involved in the political process, as that is something that everybody wants. Sir George Young: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that question. The Government are committed to Sir George Young: I am grateful to my hon. Friend tackling tax avoidance and we welcome any debate on for drawing attention to the fact that the YouthParliament the subject. The best way to deal with such schemes is to will sit in this Chamber on that date, and my hon. bring them to the attention of my ministerial colleagues Friend the Deputy Leader of the House will be representing at the Treasury.The Government are making improvements the Government. If the sitting is anything like last to a scheme called DOTAS—Disclosure of Tax Avoidance year’s, it will be a fantastic success. I agree with her on Schemes—with which I am sure my hon. Friend is the importance of engaging young people in the political familiar, so that Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs process. I think it would be worth while to have a receives better and earlier information about tax avoidance debate, and she can either apply for one in Westminster schemes. Hall or catch the eye of the Chairman of the Backbench Business Committee at one of her Wednesday sittings. Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab): I hope Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): Is that the Leader of the House will be aware of the the right hon. Gentleman aware that it is estimated that collapse of Crown Currency Exchange, which has left there will be 1,000 job losses in every university in this people across the country, including some of my country if we have the predicted cuts in university constituents, hundreds or even thousands of pounds budgets? Is it not about time we had a serious debate on out of pocket. Will he agree to encourage Ministers to this essential element of our prosperity in this country? investigate the collapse, and in particular the fact that the company continued to accept currency orders when Sir George Young: The Government will be spending it had already gone bust? Will he also allow time for a some £90 million on universities and student support debate on such matters? this year. The hon. Gentleman will know that this was not a protected area for the outgoing Labour Government; Sir George Young: In common with many other they had pencilled in cuts of some 20% for that budget, Members of the House, I too have constituents who and we need to bear that in mind. He will have to await have lost money through Crown Currency Exchange. the outcome of the comprehensive spending review to As the hon. Gentleman knows, the Financial Services see the resources that we are making available to the Authority does not regulate retail foreign exchange universities in the next three years. services, so it did not regulate in any way the business of Crown Currency Exchange. The business model was Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con): exceptional and involved taking forward risks. I shall Will the Leader of the House allow a debate on fire certainly draw his remarks to the attention of my colleagues safety linked to building regulations and materials? in the Treasury to see whether there is any further According to the chief fire officer for Kent, it takes a legislative action that the Government might take. matter of minutes from ignition to collapse, and the lives of fire officers and members of the public are thereby endangered. Mr Stewart Jackson (Peterborough) (Con): The House will know of the wholly wrong-headed proposals made Sir George Young: My hon. Friend raises an important by the Sentencing Guidelines Council for a reduction in issue about the safety of those in buildings. I shall draw sentences for violent crime. Given that today we are his remarks to the attention of the Secretary of State for examining the abolition of a number of out-of-touch Communities and Local Government and see whether and superfluous quangos, may I add the Sentencing he can respond to the point that my hon. Friend has Guidelines Council to that list? made. Sir George Young: My hon. Friend is right that the Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab): Sentencing Guidelines Council has made some proposals Will the Leader of the House ask the Ministry of that would impact on short sentences. The Government’s Defence when it plans to come to give a statement on view is that short sentences are appropriate in many the compensation payments for nuclear test veterans? cases, particularly those that involve assault, and the We have now been waiting five months for this Government Government will respond in due course to the views of to get their proverbial finger out and make a decision. the council. 495 Business of the House14 OCTOBER 2010 Business of the House 496

Diana R. Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab): that that area will be restored to the condition in which Hull has already seen the withdrawal of the university it used to be. In the meantime, the camps have simply of Lincoln from its Hull campus. I am particularly moved to the pavement. That is wholly unacceptable, concerned about the Browne recommendations on funding and it is not what one should see in the centre of an and their effect on Hull university. Will the Leader of historic capital city. We are going to consider legislation the House make space in Government time for us to in the forthcoming Home Office Bill to put the situation debate the effects on local constituencies of the withdrawal right. of funding to higher education institutions? Mr Dave Watts (St Helens North) (Lab): May we Sir George Young: The hon. Lady makes a serious have a debate on the Air Force’s view that if it faces point. I am sure that the House will want to debate, in cuts, it is quite likely that it will be unable to protect due course, the recommendations of the Browne report. Britain in the case of a 9/11-type attack in the future? When we have details of how much is being made available in resources for next year, there might be an Sir George Young: I said in my business statement opportunity in the debate on the CSR to make the point that the Prime Minister would make a statement on the that the hon. Lady has just made. strategic defence and security review. I expect that there will be a debate shortly after that in which the hon. Nicholas Soames (Mid Sussex) (Con): Is my right Gentleman will have the opportunity to raise his concerns. hon. Friend aware of the necessary upheaval caused by the important work going on in many constituencies to amalgamate several special needs schools, their transfer Mr John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con): As the on to the site often of other big schools and the traffic Government strategy rests on raising £176 billion a year chaos that can ensue, understandably but regrettably? more tax at the end of this Parliament than last year, Will my right hon. Friend consult the Department for may we have an early debate on economic growth, the Transport to see whether there is an opportunity for a measures the Government can take to promote it, and debate with Ministers both from the Department for how we can lift spirits in this country so that that is Transport and the Department for Education present to feasible? try to hammer out some of those difficulties and see whether a more effective protocol could be found? Sir George Young: My right hon. Friend will know that we have already introduced a number of measures Sir George Young: My hon. Friend makes a forceful to promote growth, such as reducing corporation tax point, and that sounds to me an ideal topic for a debate and encouraging the establishment of new businesses in in Westminster Hall. I know that many local education certain regions of the country. I hope that on the back authorities, when they are considering the amalgamation of the CSR he will have the opportunity to make his of schools or the construction of new schools, take into points in the debate that I have just announced. account the traffic that would be generated. Sometimes they make it a condition for approval of the expansion Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab): May we debate of a school that there should be a green transport to early-day motion 805 on the brutal, unfair and irrational school policy. I can only encourage my hon. Friend to proposal that would deny Wales and the west of England make a bid for a debate in Westminster Hall. our only regional passport office and destroy the jobs of 250 loyal workers, who were recently commended by a Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): Will the Minister for their splendid can-do attitude? Leader of the House make time for a debate on the [That this House regrets the proposal to close the Floor of the House on the Government’s significant Newport Regional Passport Office which would result in decision to allow deep-water drilling off the west of the loss of 300 jobs and leave Wales and West of England Shetland, a decision that raises serious environmental without the services currently available only from regional concerns, and which was slipped out at a time when the offices; notes the closure would make Wales the only House was not sitting, when the relevant Select Committee devolved nation in the UK without a regional office; had not yet reported, and when the US investigation welcomes the Newport passport workers’ commendation into the gulf of Mexico disaster still is not complete? for the high quality of their work and their can-do co-operation when faced with the new challenges; believes that moving Sir George Young: I am not sure whether that is a work and jobs from Wales to London damagingly reverses matter for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State the 50-year all-party policy of relocating public sector for Energy and Climate Change or whether it falls to jobs from the South East of England to areas of high the Scottish Administration to resolve it. I shall make unemployment; and calls for the withdrawal of this irrational, some inquiries and ensure that the hon. Lady gets an wasteful proposal.] answer. David Tredinnick (Bosworth) (Con): When does my Sir George Young: Of course I understand the local right hon. Friend expect Parliament square to be cleared concern about the proposed closure of the passport of demonstrators? Is he aware that the situation is office in Newport. I will share that concern with my worse than it was in the summer, with 20 illegally placed right hon. Friend the Home Secretary, so that she is tents on the pavement meaning that nobody can use the aware of it, and I will write to the hon. Gentleman. square at all? When is he going to deal with this situation? Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD): May we Sir George Young: I am grateful to my hon. Friend have a debate on the purpose and adequacy of the for once again raising this issue. I support the action Office of Fair Trading, which today issued an extraordinary that the Mayor of London took a few months ago to conclusion on the beer tie and the pub companies, clear the green in the middle of the square, and I hope whose conduct was widely criticised by the then Select 497 Business of the House14 OCTOBER 2010 Business of the House 498

[Greg Mulholland] Sir George Young: I wholly agree with my hon. Friend’s point about the release, and I know that the British Committee on Business and Enterprise? That criticism Government share that concern. He will have an has been accepted by the previous Government and by opportunity on 16 November to ask the Secretary of this Government. May we have a debate on this important State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs about subject to see whether that body is fit for purpose? this. Alternatively, he can apply for a debate in Westminster Hall or through the Backbench Business Committee. Sir George Young: I commend the work that the hon. Gentleman has done to safeguard pubs up and down Yvonne Fovargue (Makerfield) (Lab): I would like to the country in the last Parliament. The question of the ask the Leader of the House for a debate on the real OFT might arise in the statement to be made shortly by consequences for women of the proposed loss of child my right hon. Friend the Minister for the Cabinet benefit—just one example of which would be the effect Office. on their state pensions.

Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab): Earlier in the week, in Sir George Young: The hon. Lady raises a legitimate answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Wrexham point about whether the loss of child benefit will have (Ian Lucas), the Economic Secretary to the Treasury an impact on the entitlement to a state retirement said that it was a “constructive”suggestion from Sir Philip pension in the wife’s own right, and that is something Green for the Government to save money by delaying that we will want to consider. payments to suppliers for up to 45 days. Small and medium-sized enterprises will find that highly concerning, Christopher Pincher (Tamworth) (Con): Thanks to a as they work hard to prosper in these difficult times. bizarre decision by the Planning Inspectorate, next year Will the Leader of the House find time for a statement Tamworth faces the prospect of severe traffic chaos and on this issue to clarify the situation? potentially long-term congestion thereafter. Will my right hon. Friend give an indication of when it will be Sir George Young: My view is that Government the business of this House to abolish the Planning Departments should settle their bills promptly. Inspectorate and devolve power to local planning decision makers? In the course of that debate, will we be able to Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con): Will my right discuss and review some of the decisions made by the hon. Friend the Leader of the House find time for a inspectorate that have yet to be implemented? debate on the scope of our health and safety legislation, because it appears that now even the Scouts are being prevented from enjoying their usual games and activities? Sir George Young: My hon. Friend will have an opportunity to address those concerns when we reach Sir George Young: As a former Scout, I would regret the localism Bill. We have no plans to abolish the any curtailment of the activities that I used to indulge Planning Inspectorate, which allows individuals a right in. I shall raise my hon. Friend’s concerns with the of appeal against refusals by local authorities, but against appropriate Minister and get a reply. that background we want to push down decisions, such as those that were previously taken by regional bodies, Mrs Madeleine Moon (Bridgend) (Lab): May we have to a local level. a debate in Government time on the need to update copyright law, especially to protect small businesses Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab): I refer the Leader such as The Priory, which is a hair and skin clinic in of the House to early-day motion 742, which was tabled Bridgend? It inadvertently downloaded from the internet by my right hon. Friend the Member for Torfaen (Paul images that were not properly identified and has Murphy). subsequently faced horrendous bills from Getty Images [That this House calls on the Secretary of State for demanding that it make exorbitant payment for the Wales to propose a meeting of the Welsh Grand Committee accidental use of ill-marked images— to discuss the implications for Wales of the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill.] Paul Flynn: Disgraceful. Under current proposals, Wales will lose 25% of its Mrs Moon: It is disgraceful, as my hon. Friend says, parliamentary seats, yet there will be little time for and is damaging a number of small businesses that discussion on the Floor of the House of the implications cannot afford to take legal action to protect themselves. of that for Wales. Will the Leader of the House discuss that matter further with the Secretary of State for Sir George Young: I share the hon. Lady’s concern. I Wales, so that legitimate questions and grievances in thought that there had been legislation relatively recently Wales are given a proper hearing in the Welsh Grand to address that problem, but if there is a loophole in it, I Committee? shall raise that with my hon. Friends at the Department for Culture, Media and Sport. Sir George Young: I understand that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Wales has written to Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con): May we have an all Welsh Members setting out her decision not to refer urgent debate on Burma? With the Burmese elections the matter to the Welsh Grand Committee. As the hon. due on 7 November, does the Leader of the House agree Gentleman will know, the Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet that those elections need to be free and fair, and that if Office, my hon. Friend the Member for Forest of Dean the Burmese regime is serious about engaging with the (Mr Harper), who is the Minister with responsibility for international community it needs to honour its pledge political and constitutional issues, is giving evidence and release Aung San Suu Kyi? today to the Welsh Affairs Committee. The hon. Gentleman 499 Business of the House14 OCTOBER 2010 Business of the House 500 will also know that one reason why the Parliamentary changes on driving up homelessness. In constituencies Voting System and Constituencies Bill is being taken on such as mine, where more than half of housing benefit the Floor of the House is to allow Members from all claimants are over 60, the changes will hit pensioners parts of the UK to make their contributions. We have particularly hard. In addition, the Government have provided five days for debate in Committee of the been extremely unclear about the effect that the changes whole House and two days on Report, which is an will have on homelessness provision, such as hostels and adequate opportunity for all Members to make their women’s refuges. points. The specific issues concerning Wales arise under clause 11, and I hope that he will have an opportunity Sir George Young: I understand the hon. Lady’s to contribute to that debate. concern. There was a debate on housing benefit in Westminster Hall yesterday, but I am not sure whether Lorely Burt (Solihull) (LD): May we have a debate on she was able to attend. The proposed changes will plans by the banks to phase out the cheque? Cheque require legislation, and there will be an opportunity as guarantee cards are due to be phased out in June next the legislation goes through Parliament to raise the year, which will cause enough problems, but that will be issues that she touches on. nothing compared with the problems that will be caused for small business people, charities, the housebound, Mr Rob Wilson (Reading East) (Con): May we have a pensioners and many others. They will suffer for the statement from the appropriate Minister on the dreadful—I convenience of bankers, who seem to have forgotten mean dreadful—state of much of the education in our what customer service is. youth offenders institutions?

Sir George Young: My hon. Friend has raised concerns Sir George Young: There may be an opportunity to that are felt in constituencies represented on both sides raise that particular subject at Justice questions, or it of the House. As I understand it, the Payments Council may be an appropriate topic for a debate. In the meantime, announced last year that it had set a provisional date of I will draw the attention of the Secretary of State for 2018 to close the cheque-clearing system, and it is keen Justice to my hon. Friend’s concern. to hear as many views as possible. I also agree that that would be a perfectly legitimate subject for a debate. Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Lab/ Perhaps she will contact the Chair of the Backbench Co-op): Will the Leader of the House inform us when Business Committee and see whether it catches her eye. we will get a statement on the future of the BBC World Service, particularly given my understanding that it is Mr John Spellar (Warley) (Lab): Will the Leader of being treated not as a non-departmental public body or the House confirm whether we can expect a statement as a quango in the traditional sense, but as an arm’s by either the Foreign Secretary or the Defence Secretary length organisation? The matter is particularly important on the review of foreign and security policy on Monday? given the work that the BBC World Service does around Does he share my concern at reports that that will be the globe. done by a written statement rather than by an oral statement here in the House, which would be subject to Sir George Young: Like the hon. Gentleman, I pay proper scrutiny? tribute to the work of the BBC World Service. It may be that that issue is better debated after next Wednesday’s Sir George Young: I announced in my business statement CSR. that the Prime Minister will make a statement on the strategic defence and security review, and I announced John Stevenson (Carlisle) (Con): I was selected as a a further statement by the Chancellor; I did not announce parliamentary candidate by virtue of an open primary. any other ones. The coalition agreement includes a proposal to conduct 200 all-postal primaries during this Parliament. Will the Priti Patel (Witham) (Con): Earlier this week, we Leader of the House make a statement on progress on witnessed the spectacle of the unapologetic chief executive that issue? of Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs admitting to even more mistakes with PAYE and trying to justify a Sir George Young: My hon. Friend is right to remind £50,000 a month fat cat salary to the head of IT in that the House that the coalition agreement includes a bureaucratic organisation. At the same time, she refused commitment to fund 200 all-postal primaries over the to take any responsibility for the misery that that course of this Parliament as part of our overall programme organisation is causing my constituents. May we have a of reform to make our politics more accountable. As he debate in Government time on that organisation’s failure knows, we have already embarked on a major programme to be more accountable and transparent? of constitutional reform. We are considering how best to take forward the proposal on all-postal primaries in Sir George Young: Evidence has been given to the the light of other changes that will impact on our Public Accounts Committee by HMRC. The Government electoral process. want to see the PAC report on HMRC before responding in due course. I will certainly bear in mind my hon. Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab): Can we have Friend’s criticisms. a debate in Government time on the appointment yesterday of the Prime Minister’s new military assistant to clarify Bridget Phillipson (Houghton and Sunderland South) not only the role of the Chief of the Defence Staff, but, (Lab): May we have a debate on the implications of the more importantly, the role of Her Majesty the Queen as Government’s changes to housing benefit? Many Members head of the armed forces? Yesterday, the justification have raised serious concerns about the impact of those from No. 10 was that both President Sarkozy and 501 Business of the House14 OCTOBER 2010 Business of the House 502

[Mr Kevan Jones] Gregg McClymont (Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East) (Lab): The Government efficiency President Obama have military advisers and therefore tsar, Sir Philip Green, is famously efficient in organising so should our Prime Minister, which does not recognise his own tax affairs. May I add my voice to the clamour the fact that they are Heads of State, unlike him. from across the House for a debate on the antisocial behaviour of tax avoiders? Sir George Young: I am sure that the Prime Minister is entitled to military advice. I will give the Prime Sir George Young: I think that that issue was raised Minister notice that after his statement on Tuesday he and dealt with by the Secretary of State for Business, can expect a question along those lines from the hon. Innovation and Skills in departmental questions. As I Gentleman. said in reply to one of my hon. Friends, we welcome the initiatives of HMRC to close down tax avoidance. If the Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): Last night, hon. Gentleman has a specific scheme in mind, perhaps there was an absolutely splendid debate in the House: he would like to contact the Treasury. the Government Benches were packed; 44 Members spoke; and parliamentary history was made when for Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): Will the Leader of the first time the Government accepted an amendment the House find time for a debate on houses in multiple tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Mr Cash) occupancy owned by private landlords? A constituent on a European matter. However, the Opposition Benches of mine, Mrs Sullivan, has talked to me in my surgery were empty—Opposition Members were absent without about overcrowding and antisocial behaviour in some leave. Will the Leader of the House encourage the HMOs in Harlow that are becoming an urgent problem. Opposition to hold the Government to account?

Sir George Young: The hon. Member for Bolsover Sir George Young: Local authorities have fairly extensive (Mr Skinner) was, of course, here. I am sorry that powers in relation to HMOs. My hon. Friend might Opposition Members were not here, because they missed want to establish whether his local authority is using a first-class performance by the Economic Secretary. those powers. If he believes that there is a deficiency in They also missed a moment of history, when, for the the powers available to local authorities, I would be first time in my life, I voted for an amendment on happy to raise that issue with my hon. Friends at the Europe tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Department for Communities and Local Government. Stone. Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab): Further to the Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab): In light of the huge point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Blaenau threat to hundreds of voluntary and community groups Gwent (Nick Smith), may I ask the right hon. Gentleman in my constituency and across the country because of to reconsider having a word with the Secretary of State cuts imposed by the Government, may we have a debate for Wales about holding a meeting of the Welsh Grand on the Government’s vision for the big society? Committee? I cannot remember an occasion in recent years on which there has been overwhelming demand Sir George Young: I say very gently to the hon. Lady for such a meeting and it has been denied by the that the cuts imposed by the Government—to use her Secretary of State. Not even the right hon. Member for words—are necessary because of the deficit that we Wokingham (Mr Redwood), who is in his place, would inherited from the previous Labour Government, who have done such a thing when he was Secretary of State had pencilled in 20% cuts. Until Labour Members are for Wales. Rather than just face me down at this point, much more open than they have been to date about how will the Leader of the House agree to have a word with they would deal with the deficit, they have no credibility her and to think again? whatsoever on financial issues. Sir George Young: The Secretary of State for Wales Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): The cull of quangos is and the Minister with responsibility for political and welcome in enhancing accountability, but the corollary constitutional reform, my hon. Friend the Member for is that that accountability must go to Secretaries of Forest of Dean, discussed the Bill’s provisions and their State and Departments. Will my right hon. Friend effect on Wales with Members who represent Welsh instruct the Table Office and the departmental constituencies at a recent meeting in the House. The parliamentary Clerks to be more welcoming on the Secretary of State has set out her reasons for not tabling of written questions to Departments? There acceding to the request of the former Secretary of State should be a general principle that if a Department for Wales, the right hon. Member for Torfaen (Paul spends money on it, we should be able to ask questions Murphy). There are Welsh-specific clauses in the Bill about it. that will provide adequate opportunities for Members from Wales to have the same opportunity as other Sir George Young: My hon. Friend makes a powerful Members to raise their concerns in the House. point, which relates to the announcement in the written ministerial statement that Ministers will have direct Mr Brian Binley (Northampton South) (Con): The responsibility for a number of issues that were previously regulators are placing great demands on the banks to covered by quangos. It follows from that that there build up capital reserves while, as we learned today, should be a change in process at the Table Office to 125,000 small businesses are in danger of going to the recognise the changes announced by my right hon. wall. Will the Leader of the House arrange a debate in Friend the Minister for the Cabinet Office. Government time so that we can talk about ways of 503 Business of the House14 OCTOBER 2010 Business of the House 504 unlocking that money to ensure that small businesses Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab): My constituent can play their part in ensuring the success of the Budget James Goodman is a hard-working electrician who has strategy? invested in property in Egypt only to find that local builders have seized that property. His only advice from Sir George Young: Of course the banks, particularly the embassy has been to get a lawyer. He has done that, those in which the Government have a substantial stake, and it has cost him more than £9,000. The Russian should help to promote recovery by lending to small Government have looked after their citizens and have businesses that have worthwhile propositions. I am not made representations to the Egyptian Government. May sure that there is a total contradiction between rebuilding we have an early debate on what this Government are the balance sheets on the one hand and lending to small going to do to protect British citizens abroad? businesses on the other. If one has a robust balance sheet, it should be possible to make more provision for Sir George Young: I am sorry to hear what has lending. happened to the hon. Lady’s constituent. I suggest that she applies for an Adjournment debate and seeks the Michael Connarty (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (Lab): support of a Foreign Office Minister in the cause that It is quite clear that the comprehensive spending review she has just espoused. will mean massive consequential cuts for the funding of the Scottish Government. We understand that a dirty Mr Speaker: Last, but certainly not least, I call Mr Ian deal has been done between the Conservatives and their Austin. new Scottish National party allies to postpone those cuts for one year. What will the Leader of the House do Ian Austin (Dudley North) (Lab): Thank you, to ensure that the figures are published so that people Mr Speaker. Despite what the Leader of the House said will know what the double-whammy cuts will be in the earlier, the rate at which emergency cold weather payments second year, and how will they be scrutinised by the will be made this year was fixed on Monday when the Select Committee on Scottish Affairs or the Scottish regulations were made. As things stand, 4 million of Grand Committee? Britain’s poorest families and pensioners stand to have their benefits cut by two thirds and to receive just £8.50. Should not the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions Sir George Young: The hon. Gentleman must await come to the House at the earliest opportunity to clear the statement by the Chancellor of the Exchequer next this shambles up? Wednesday. Perhaps he will catch your eye, Mr Speaker, and ask questions about the consequences for Scotland Sir George Young: The rate of payment will be announced of the overall settlement in the UK. in the spending review next week. We are committed to helping vulnerable people and we will continue to make Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con): May we cold weather payments as and when they may be triggered, have a debate about the recent Commission for Rural but we will not comment on the rate of those payments Communities report that highlighted major issues with ahead of the spending review. access to services in rural North Yorkshire? Mr Speaker: I am extremely grateful both to the Sir George Young: I have a rural constituency, like my Leader of the House and to all colleagues whose hon. Friend, in which it is often more difficult to succinctness has meant that all 44 hon. Members who provide a range of services. I hope that the Chairman of wished to question the Leader of the House have had the Backbench Business Committee, who heard that the chance to do so. That shows what can be done when question, will add it to her list of bids. we put our minds to it. 505 14 OCTOBER 2010 Public Bodies Reform 506

Public Bodies Reform Of the 901 bodies in the review, substantial reforms are proposed for more than half. We propose that 12.15 pm 192 should cease to be public bodies at all and that 118 should be merged down into 57 successor bodies, The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster removing wasteful and complicating duplication of effort. General (Mr Francis Maude): Today, the Government Some 171 bodies are proposed for substantial reform have taken decisive action to restore accountability and while retaining their current status. For those bodies responsibility to public life. For too long, this country that we are abolishing, I stress that in many cases that has tolerated Ministers who duck the difficult decisions does not mean the end of the function. Abolishing the they were elected to make. For too long, we have had regional development agencies, for example, does not too many people who were unaccountable, with a licence mean that we no longer care about promoting regional to meddle in people’s lives. For too long, we have had business—[Interruption.] The Opposition’s response is quango pay spiralling out of control, so that seven very revealing, because it suggests something fundamental people in the Audit Commission are paid more than about what we are trying to change: the assumption £150,000 a year at a time when the average civil servant’s that one can prove that one cares about something only pay is £23,000. if one sets up a quango. We think that there is a The landscape for public bodies needs radical reform different and a better answer, and that we can promote to increase transparency and accountability, to cut out regional business in a better way. duplication of activity and to discontinue activities that Since the introduction of RDAs, regional imbalances are simply no longer needed. My written statement this have become not better, but worse, and the development morning outlined the start of a process to curtail the agencies carried a staggering £212 million in administration quango state. I have led an intensive review into public costs. We believe that local businesses and local authorities bodies, subjecting each to four tests. The first test was are better placed to decide what they need, not highly existential and asked, does the body need to exist and paid executives imposed on them by Government. An do its functions need to be carried out at all? The activity does not need an unaccountable bureaucratic answer to that question in some cases was no. For structure to signify its importance; the exact converse is example, we decided that the Government probably do true. If something is important, someone who is elected not need an independent body to deliberate on the should make decisions about how it is done. That is why purchase of wine. we are bringing a host of functions back into Departments, If, as in most cases, the body’s functions were deemed such as those of the Child Maintenance and Enforcement necessary, we then sought to establish whether those Commission and the Renewable Fuels Agency to name functions should properly be carried out at arm’s length but two. to government. If the body carries out a highly technical All remaining public bodies will be subject to a activity, is required to be politically impartial or needs rigorous triennial review to ensure that the previous to act independently to establish facts, then it is right for pattern of public bodies often outliving the purpose for it to remain outside direct ministerial accountability. which they were established is not repeated. They will That is the case with bodies such as the new Office for be expected to become more open, accountable and Budget Responsibility and Ofgem. However, any quango efficient. In the new year, I shall outline to the House in that does not meet one of these tests will be either more detail the new framework for those remaining brought back into a Department or devolved to local quangos. authorities—in both of which cases, there will be democratic accountability—or its functions will be carried out outside All proposed changes will be delivered within the state altogether in the private or voluntary sectors. Departments’ spending review settlements. Those bodies We have gone through an extensive process to determine whose status is being retained may be subjected to the outcome of the review. Our first task was quite further reforms following the spending review, in the simply to identify how many quangos there are and same way as all other parts of the public sector. I want what they do. It may sound absurd but it was and to acknowledge the dedication and hard work of those remains incredibly difficult to gain firm information on who work in public bodies. We are committed to working such bodies. Many do not publish accounts, there is no with the chairs and chief executives of those bodies to central list and there are myriad different types all with ensure that change is conducted as fairly and as smoothly different statuses. The official list of non-departmental as possible. public bodies has 679 bodies, excluding those in Northern To enable the proposed changes to be implemented, Ireland, but that does not include non-ministerial the Government will shortly introduce a public bodies Departments, Government-owned public corporations Bill, which will give Ministers power to make changes or trading funds. Our review covered 901 bodies and we to named statutory bodies. Other forthcoming legislation, believe, but cannot be certain, that that is the true extent such as the education Bill and the localism Bill, will also of the landscape. I stress that departmental agencies— be used to make changes directly. Executive agencies—are not in the review’s scope. They I believe that these reforms are the first and necessary are directly controlled by Ministers who are accountable step to restoring proper democratic accountability to to Parliament for what they do. public life. They signal a complete culture change in Once we established the overall lists, each Department government, from one that ducks difficult decisions, is went through a rigorous process to determine whether opaque and allows profligacy, inflated salaries and waste, each of its quangos met any of the tests. The list I have to an Administration who are open and transparent published today is not complete but is a work in progress. about what they do, with Ministers who take responsibility The House will note that a number of bodies are subject for their actions and are mindful of every penny of to a longer-term review—for example, the Children’s taxpayers’ money. I commend these reforms to the Commissioner and the Office for Fair Access. House. 507 Public Bodies Reform14 OCTOBER 2010 Public Bodies Reform 508

Mr Liam Byrne (Birmingham, Hodge Hill) (Lab): I Finally, in March I introduced a new principle whereby am very grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for early quangos would be set up only as a last resort. The sight of his statement—in the Financial Times, The Minister’s statement confirms his presumption that state Guardian and The Daily Telegraph this morning. He is a activity should be undertaken by bodies that are man who appreciates the courtesies of this House, so I democratically accountable. His party’s manifesto promised know that he will provide you, Mr Speaker, with an 20 new quangos—one third of the extra quangos that explanation of how the media could possibly have been he has abolished today. Will he confirm that those briefed before Members were. quangos will not go ahead? May I, however, start on a note of consensus? I thank the Minister for his work in completing a process that Mr Maude: It is very good to have such a consensual was set in train during my time at the Treasury. In approach from the man who famously told the world March I told the House that 123 quangos would need to on leaving government that there was no money left. close, and from first glance at this statement it appears There will be savings as a result of the process, and that two thirds of the 192 arm’s length bodies that need there need to be because the right hon. Gentleman was to close are those that I announced in March. Instead of a prominent member of a Government who left office 20% of quangos being closed, the Minister has announced spending £4 for every £3 of revenue. They were having that 25% will be. to borrow £1 out of every £4 just to keep the lights on, the teachers in the schools, the pensions being paid and I am grateful, too, that his tests largely confirmed the the doctors and nurses in the hospitals. This Government approach that I set out in March. I welcome his have to clear up the mess that his Government shamefully endorsement of the principles of a sunset clause for left behind, and there will be savings from the process. quangos and of triennial reviews. I am especially grateful for his confirmation of our decision to mutualise British Mr Byrne: How much? Waterways, which will be an important institution in the third sector that I know we both support. Mr Maude: We became used to the previous Labour May I, however, raise the slightly obvious question Government bandying around large numbers in respect about the way in which the right hon. Gentleman has of the savings that they proposed to make, but we know conducted this exercise? All of us want to improve that when the National Audit Office went around after accountability—it was one of the three principles that those much vaunted efficiency exercises over which he we set out in the ALB review in March—but we also and his colleagues presided, it found that in most cases want to save money, and once upon a time I thought they had not saved money at all. It was all about the that the current Prime Minister agreed, because, in a optics and trying to make a point; it had nothing to do typically thoughtful and measured intervention, he said with reality. in October 2008: I am sorry to say that jobs will be lost as a result of “Sound money means…destroying all these useless quangos this process, but, in order to clear up the fiscal mess that and initiatives.” the right hon. Gentleman’s Government left behind, Now the Minister tells us that the Prime Minister in fact that is sadly an inevitability. Savings will be made as a got it wrong. Saving money result of the exercise, but, as I said at the outset, it is not “is not the principal objective”, principally about saving money, although it will do so. he told the “Today” programme this morning. It is principally about increasing accountability—the important presumption that when an activity is carried Labour’s plan would have saved £500 billion by 2012-13. out by the state, and there is no pressing need to do so at Now we are told that the Government’s approach will arm’s length from government, it should be carried out not in all cases save money at all. In fact, it could cost by someone who is accountable democratically, either a more money than it saves at the Audit Commission, the Minister who is accountable to this House and, through RDAs, the UK Film Council, Standards for England this House, to the public, or a local authority that is and the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority. accountable to local residents. I am afraid that the Minister has become the most expensive butcher in the country. His friend the Chancellor It is very good that the right hon. Gentleman agrees will no doubt be delighted. with our approach and thinks it sensible. He tried to claim credit for it himself, actually, so, as the various Will the Minister, first, set out the total cost of bodies that we have discussed today start to complain, implementing the plan this year and next? He should as some will, and as some vested interests will with a have those figures at his fingertips now that the review is very loud voice, I shall be able to tell them that our almost complete. Secondly, can he explain the impact approach is a consensual one—that the Labour party on jobs and unemployment? Organisations such as the wants to play its full part in responsibility for the whole UK Film Council help to strengthen industry and tax exercise. revenues. What estimate has he made of the impact of his announcement on growth and jobs? Thirdly, the Several hon. Members rose— principle of independence is sometimes important, and I am glad that he acknowledges that, but it is not clear Mr Speaker: Order. There is a lot of interest and little how he has applied it in all cases. For example, we need time, so brevity both from Back Benchers and Front to hear a little more from the Minister about the Football Benchers is vital. Licensing Authority. The Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport infamously had to apologise for blaming Mr John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con): How will we Liverpool fans for the Hillsborough tragedy; now the be less bossed about and over-regulated as a result of Government are scrapping the organisation established these changes? to ensure that a Hillsborough never happens again, without being clear about what will be put in its place. Mr Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) (Lab): Not very much. 509 Public Bodies Reform14 OCTOBER 2010 Public Bodies Reform 510

Mr Maude: The hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr Skinner) out in a way that is demonstrably politically impartial, says, rather regretfully, “Not very much.” It sounds as or that they are measuring facts in some way that though he wants us to be more regulated and bossed requires there to be independence. The Office for Budget around—that is somehow in his nature. Responsibility, which my right hon. Friend the Chancellor The answer to my right hon. Friend the Member for set up early in the life of this Government, is one such Wokingham (Mr Redwood) is that some functions will body that meets all those tests. They will have to go not be carried out at all. The key point is that the through a rigorous process before consent is given to presumption will be that where there is a state activity, their creation. at least he and the rest of the House will be able to hold a Minister to account for what is done. What people Mr George Howarth (Knowsley) (Lab): Does the find so irritating is the sense that there has been incontinently Minister accept that some of these bodies were set up set up, in large part by the previous Government, this almost as debts of honour? I particularly mention the huge amount of activity by bodies that are in no way Football Licensing Authority and the Human Tissue accountable: no one can hold them accountable for Authority, which were set up respectively after the what they do. That is what we are seeking to change. Hillsborough stadium disaster and the scandal at Alder Hey hospital. Does he accept that a lot of people who Mr Jack Straw (Blackburn) (Lab): May I first invite were affected by those events will be aghast that that the Minister, in the spirit of consensus that we certainly debt of honour has now been reneged on by this want on this, to show just a tiny bit of humility in Government? recognising that the high point of the unaccountable quango state was under the Major Government, of Mr Maude: I hear what the right hon. Gentleman whom he was, I think, an adornment? At that time, says, and I know how deeply he, and many people, feel outrageously, as I found when I became Home Secretary, about that. Those two events caused a deep scar in the having endured it in opposition, even parliamentary lives and memories of very many people, and they were questions to the Secretary of State about prisons were scars on the life and history of this country. I would being answered not by a Minister but by the chief simply make this point to him: we should not be setting executive of the agency concerned. That was preposterous up bodies, or retaining bodies in existence, merely for and it happened under a Conservative Government, but symbolic purposes. It will remain important that there we ended it very quickly. I hope that he recognises that is expertise about safety measures in football grounds. the history goes right back to the Major Government. That function does not disappear, but it does not necessarily need to have its own separate, unaccountable organisation Secondly, may I ask the Minister a specific question to dispense it. Similarly, the functions of the Human about the Youth Justice Board? I set that up; I accept Tissue Authority can be carried out perfectly properly that it does not have life eternal and that there is a case within the plethora of regulatory bodies in the health for reviewing its future. However, will he ensure that as sector, to which my right hon. Friend the Health Secretary its future is reviewed, its key functions of delivering is rightly applying some reforming rigour. effective youth justice are preserved? Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD): Liberal Democrat Mr Maude: It is a pleasure to welcome the right hon. Back Benchers welcome the statement on the grounds Gentleman into our big tent; it is open to all-comers, of cost, improved efficiency and, above all, embarking and it is a delight to have him as a resident. I think that on dealing with the problem of democratic deficit. he confuses the role of Executive agencies with the However, behind the names of these organisations there function of a quango. It seems to me perfectly proper are many people genuinely fearful for their jobs. Will that when Members of Parliament inquire about an the Minister emphasise this line in his statement: “For activity they receive a reply from the Executive agency’s those bodies that we are abolishing, I should stress that chief executive. That does not mean that that agency is in many cases this does not mean the end of the not accountable to Parliament through what a Minister function”? That is very important, and that reassurance says and does. The right hon. Gentleman will have needs to be made to many other people. found himself, as Home Secretary, directly accountable On the ending of Consumer Focus and the passing of to this House for those functions. its responsibilities to citizens advice bureaux, the Minister Some of the functions performed by the YouthJustice is aware that there are many concerns about funding for Board will continue to be very important, but we take Citizens Advice at a central level. What discussions has the view that the need for independent oversight of the he had with his colleagues about enhancing the role of process has now outlived its usefulness. CABs and, indeed, increased funding—

Andrew Bingham (High Peak) (Con): I am pleased to Mr Speaker: I am extremely grateful to the hon. hear my right hon. Friend say that overall costs will be Gentleman, and I will be grateful to the Minister for a reduced. A Local Government Association publication brief reply. of December last year outlined 790 quangos costing £43 billion. How can he ensure that more quangos will Mr Maude: My hon. Friend makes a perfectly proper not reappear as some disappear? point about staff. We hope that jobs will not be lost, although some will be; we recognise that every single Mr Maude: I am sure that there will occasionally be a one is a personal disaster for the family involved. The case for new independent bodies coming into existence, chief executives of all bodies affected by the changes I but they will need to meet rigorous tests. They will need am announcing should have communicated with staff to show that they are needed to provide a seriously this morning to give them as much certainty as possible technical function, or that the function has to be carried about the future. 511 Public Bodies Reform14 OCTOBER 2010 Public Bodies Reform 512

As regards Consumer Focus and consumer activities, comprehensive spending review, which I believe he will the funding implications are being considered by my announce to the House next Wednesday, will set out the right hon. Friend the Business Secretary, and results spending envelopes for all remaining bodies and place will emerge in due course. We recognise that we cannot them under considerable financial rigour. For those just hand these functions over to outside bodies without that remain independent bodies there will be more there being any resource implications. transparency, which we have already started with the disclosure of higher salaries above £150,000. That has Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): In pursuit of his body raised a number of questions about how those bodies count, did the Minister consider the role of the Investigatory are run. Powers Tribunal, which has upheld absolutely no complaints against the security services and has never offered any Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab): Some of the most vulnerable reason? Its existence is merely a deceit of scrutiny to people in Wrexham work at the local Remploy factory. mask the conceit of unaccountable, secret powers. Has What kind of Government is it who include two words— he found any more faceless, toothless or spineless creature “under consideration”—about their jobs, and what in the eco-system of Government? consultation is the Department for Work and Pensions undertaking with people whose jobs the Government Mr Maude: The hon. Gentleman encourages me to are threatening? have a very good look. Mr Maude: To put it bluntly to the hon. Gentleman, Caroline Dinenage (Gosport) (Con): In Gosport, we it is a Government who are having clear up an appalling face the prospect that our outstanding Navy engineering mess left by his party, which left office spending £4 for training school at HMS Sultan will move to St Athan in every £3 in revenue. This coalition Government are Wales under a massive and unnecessarily expensive having to reduce and eliminate a budget deficit that was private finance initiative. What will happen to some of created by his party with gross irresponsibility. My right the other outrageous PFIs that quangos have entered hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions into, such as the National School of Government? is undertaking a serious review of the future status of Remploy, and is very much aware of its good work and Mr Maude: As we spend more time in government the valuable employment that it provides for many and pick up stones, we find quite a lot of contracts in disabled people. place that make one wonder a bit about the diligence that Ministers took in exploring them at the time. Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD): Quango is not a Going through the detail of contracts is not necessarily description usually associated with the Independent the most amusing way to spend one’s life, but it is rather Parliamentary Standards Authority. If it is not on the important because there is a lot of public money involved; Minister’s culling list, will he please consider putting it the body to which my hon. Friend refers is one such in there? This morning, IPSA refused to refund the cost example. of an advertisement for an advice bureau for my constituents. Is that not an affront to the House? Perhaps Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab): Will the Minister the Minister would like to invite Sir Philip Green to take say what will happen to the functions of the Football over IPSA. I am pretty sure that the backroom staff of Licensing Authority and who will give its world-class Topshop could do a far better job. advice on safety? That is an issue of high importance to my constituents and to many others around the country. Mr Maude: I have been invited to go down that path before, and I am a cautious fellow so I shall resist the Mr Maude: The FLA does not license football grounds, temptation to do so. I am grateful to my hon. Friend for of course. That responsibility rests in all cases with his endorsement of the approach that Sir Philip Green local authorities, which will continue to exercise that has taken in helping the Government pick up a number incredibly important function. The central expertise to of stones to find out exactly what is crawling around support the licensing activity could exist in a number of underneath. bodies, such as the Health and Safety Executive, or the Football Association could provide it. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, David Cairns (Inverclyde) (Lab): The Minister is Media and Sport will explore all those options. proposing to merge UK Sport and Sport England, which do quite distinct jobs—there is a clue in their David Rutley (Macclesfield) (Con): I congratulate the titles. From his existential ruminations, will he tell me Minister on the speed with which he has taken forward how he proposes to guarantee that elite athletes in the review and this activity. [Interruption.] Well, it was Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, who are getting completely ducked by the Labour Government. What magnificent support from UK Sport in the run-up to further steps is he taking to give the remaining public the Olympic games, are not disadvantaged by what is bodies an increased focus on effectiveness and value for effectively a takeover by Sport England, which money, which is much needed as part of the culture understandably has a quite different focus? changes set out in his statement? Mr Maude: My right hon. Friend the Secretary of Mr Maude: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport will no remarks. In my written statement and the list attached doubt be able to answer the hon. Gentleman’s regular it, we have identified 40 bodies that are still under questions about how that will work. review, in many cases because a formal review has been launched but has not yet reached its end. The Chancellor’s David Cairns: You merged them. 513 Public Bodies Reform14 OCTOBER 2010 Public Bodies Reform 514

Mr Maude: This is cross-Government activity, and Mr Maude: I suppose from my hon. Friend’s point of the review has taken place across the Government. The view the bad news is that many of them will become hon. Gentleman will find that my right hon. Friends in Government employees, but in those circumstances charge of other Departments will make statements publicly Ministers will be held responsible for what they do. I today, and then he can pursue the matter. Of course the make no apology for restating that the principal purpose two organisations have different focuses, but they none of the review is to increase accountability. The fact that the less cover a lot of the same ground. Having two someone becomes a civil servant employed directly by a separate lots of unproductive overheads when one set Government Department rather than by a public body could do the job just as well does not seem a good way will make them more accountable, not less. We will be to spend taxpayers’ money. able to drive value for money and effectiveness much better. Mr Dominic Raab (Esher and Walton) (Con): I commend the Minister for his statement. Does he agree that the problem with quangos is not just their cost but their Mr Tom Clarke (Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill) effectiveness? Competition law is vital for a free market, (Lab): On the same subject, the Minister did not respond but having three regulatory bodies—the Office of Fair to the question that my right hon. Friend the Member Trading, the Competition Commission and the European for Birmingham, Hodge Hill (Mr Byrne) asked about Commission—has made business more bureaucratic and the UK Film Council. I declare an interest: I co-chaired regulation less effective. When Lloyds bought HBOS, with Stewart Till of Universal the review “A Bigger the OFT’s competition concerns were brushed aside Picture”, which led to the formation of the council. I with a wink and a nudge from the last Prime Minister at am sure the Minister would agree that since that time, a cocktail party. Does the Minister agree that that is a there has been a huge renaissance of the British film good example of how less overlapping bureaucracy can industry. How can it be considered achievable and mean more independent and robust regulation? accountable to switch responsibilities from the council to the British film industry, and how can he say that we Mr Maude: My hon. Friend is completely right. The will have access to more transparency? way in which the competition scrutiny process, which is really important for an effective economy, currently Mr Maude: I treat what the right hon. Gentleman works can be very complex, confused and slow. If we says with great respect, because I know that he has a can simplify it by merging competition functions into long background in the film industry. He is passionate one place, as we propose, there will be a benefit for the about it and has done a huge amount in the course of economy and for business and it will assist in creating his illustrious career to support it, but I take issue with jobs, which will be really important. his central contention. The implication of what he sets Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab): I noted forth is that the excellent renaissance of the British film with interest that the Child Maintenance and Enforcement industry is somehow inextricably linked with the creation Commission was one of the bodies to be brought back of the UK Film Council, but the creativity of the within the Government tent. Of course, it has not been people who make films delivered that. I find that there subject to the same lack of public confidence as the has been a mixed response to the announcement that Child Support Agency suffered for many years. How the UK Film Council will be abolished, which was can the Minister guarantee that the stakeholders whose made by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for interests are put at the heart of the CMEC’s functions Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport back in July. Very within Government are parents and, crucially, children, many eminent people in the film industry say that the and not primarily the state, as was the case with the UK Film Council’s work was not central to the great CSA? success of the British film industry, but marginal in many cases. Mr Maude: I suppose the short answer to the hon. Lady is that this Government believe that Ministers Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): Does my right hon. should make themselves available to be held to account Friend agree that hard-working taxpayers in my for what is done in their name. I understand that the constituency will be glad that their taxes will no longer previous Government preferred not to do that and set subsidise regional bureaucrats and quangos in the east up independent bodies to carry out important functions. of England? Does he also agree that that work could be The child maintenance function does not meet any of done much better by local federations of small businesses the three tests that I set out. It obviously needs to exist, and chambers of commerce, and that the new local but it does not need to be politically impartial, and enterprise partnerships should be lean and mean? indeed Ministers should be ready to be held to account for it. Mr Maude: I am confident that they will be, because Richard Harrington (Watford) (Con): I very much they will be under much closer local control. Local welcome my right hon. Friend’s statement. Contrary to business organisations will contribute to them and local what the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Hodge authorities, which are of course democratically accountable, Hill (Mr Byrne) said, I have found that in the case of a will influence them. The fact is that regional development quango that I have been dealing with, the UK Film agencies did not contribute to narrowing the regional Council, the industry is delighted that in future it will imbalances in our economy. In fact, those imbalances have direct access to Government instead of having to got worse and not better when the agencies existed over go through a third party. My concern, however, is that the lifetime of the previous Labour Government. This the same people who are working in such quangos will Government believe that support for local and regional simply become Government employees. What measures businesses that is focused more locally and that is more will he take to ensure that that does not happen? locally accountable is likely to deliver greater success. 515 Public Bodies Reform14 OCTOBER 2010 Public Bodies Reform 516

Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab): There is great concern than regulatory functions; it also provided the forum in the field of health about the impact of the changes in for some very tricky ethical debates, without which the terms of loss of expertise, which we will examine closely previous Parliament would have been unable to pass in the coming days and weeks. Would the Minister some of the legislation on such matters, because debates today like to give a guarantee on the Floor of the House would have polarised along political or religious lines. that there will be absolutely no loss of expertise? Can the Minister assure me where that function of that authority now lies? Will he reconsider that change? The Mr Maude: I am pretty sure there will be no such loss. Health Secretary will have heard that as well because he If functions need to be carried out, the expertise deployed has just arrived in the Chamber. in doing so will be maintained. Mr Maude: We will end up with a single regulator for Mr Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight) (Con): How will medical research. At the moment, such functions are the Minister ensure that quangos handed back to the dispersed quite widely. The functions of the HFEA and Government do not generate more costly parliamentary the Human Tissue Authority will lie within that single questions? regulator. Mr Maude: The number of parliamentary questions generated is not a matter of where functions sit within Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): As my right hon. government, but generally a matter of how many questions Friend will know, the Oxford canal goes right through my hon. Friend and other colleagues in the House ask. the heart of my constituency. Waterway users generally If bodies become more democratically accountable through will welcome the opportunities provided by the setting the House, they will be subject to more parliamentary up of a new waterways trust. However, the hon. Member questions—by definition—but it seems to me that that for Stoke-on-Trent Central (Tristram Hunt) made an is a good thing and not a bad thing. That is what important point when he asked what happens to existing accountability is about. British Waterways assets. Will they be transferred to a new waterways trust? Presumably, in this as in any other Tristram Hunt (Stoke-on-Trent Central) (Lab): Now aspect of my right hon. Friend’s statement, Secretaries that the much-vaunted bonfire of the quangos has of State for the Departments concerned will be willing turned into a clammy Sunday afternoon barbecue, may to answer written parliamentary questions about the I congratulate the Minister on his plans for British detail of such matters. The changes provide an enormous Waterways? He seems to be taking exactly the right opportunity for civil society to engage in the running approach, but we await information on the allocation of and maintenance of our waterways. property assets. What do the Government plan to do with the National Mr Maude: My hon. Friend is completely right on Endowment for Science, Technology and the Arts? May that. Secretaries of State will indeed be willing to answer I also urge the Minister to encourage his right hon. detailed questions on exactly those issues. On many of Friend the Work and Pensions Secretary to hurry up in the changes, complicated questions arise on the ownership sorting out the future of Independent Living Fund, of assets and where they will end up. The public bodies because that is causing real concern to my constituents? Bill will provide a power by secondary legislation to deal with asset distribution, and I am confident that my Mr Maude: I am sure my right hon. Friend the Work right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Environment, and Pensions Secretary will have heard the hon. Gentleman’s Food and Rural Affairs will have heard my hon. Friend’s last point and I know that he is addressing the matter concerns about British Waterways Board assets. with urgency. I welcome the hon. Gentleman into the big tent as far as the British Waterways Board is concerned. Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co- That is a good route to follow. op): I have heard the Minister say a number of times The hon. Gentleman also asked about the future of that if something is important, Ministers ought to take NESTA, which will become an independent endowment decisions on it and to be accountable. In that context, outside the Government. When the Bill that set it up does he believe that consumer protection and a consumer went through the House, I was the Opposition spokesman, voice are important? If so, why has he chosen specifically and I urged that it should be set up as a wholly independent to abolish Consumer Focus and to transfer its functions endowment that is outside, and not in any way subject to Citizens Advice? The latter is a worthy organisation, to the whim of, the Government. but it surely has enough to do in coping with the increasing demands for advice that result directly from Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con): Although I the Government’s welfare reforms. welcome the proposal for a triennial review of the remaining quangos, can my right hon. Friend confirm Mr Maude: The short point is that citizens advice that if it becomes clear that a quango no longer serves a bureaux carry a high degree of trust with citizens. They useful purpose, it will be abolished immediately, without exist locally and are well supported, and they manage to waiting for the completion of the three-year review? mobilise very large amounts of voluntary activity. We must get away from the slightly outdated idea that to Mr Maude: Yes. show that we care about something very much, we must set up a quango to express it. Ms Gisela Stuart (Birmingham, Edgbaston) (Lab): Going through the list of quangos in the Department of Priti Patel (Witham) (Con): Will the Minister join me Health, I can see the logic of pooling some of their in welcoming the complete abolition of the Union regulatory functions together. However, the Human Modernisation Fund Supervisory Board, which wasted Fertilisation and Embryology Authority provided more hard-earned taxpayers’ money holding secret meetings 517 Public Bodies Reform14 OCTOBER 2010 Public Bodies Reform 518

[Priti Patel] Ministers have a responsibility to ensure that it is well spent. The fact that they did not is one of the reasons in expensive hotels? It effectively handed taxpayers’ why we are now facing the scale of budget deficit that money to the trade unions. Will he give an assurance we are. The transparency that we have applied to pay in that he will take action to prevent such abuses of the quangos has meant that people have been shocked taxpayers’ money from happening in again? to find out how profligate some of the pay has been. On the transfer of staff into the civil service, the Mr Maude: We have not taken a decision on the terms and conditions will of course be transferred future of the Union Modernisation Fund itself, but my according to the TUPE rules, as the hon. Gentleman hon. Friend raises genuine concerns about the way in would expect. which the supervisory body operated. In the previous Parliament, I asked a number of questions about the Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con): In a previous existence, publication of its minutes, but somewhat to my surprise I was a leader of a local authority, and three things got I discovered that no such minutes were kept. That is the in the way of effectiveness—an increasing lack of epitome of unaccountability and lack of transparency, democratic authority; an over-burdensome inspection which is exactly what I am seeking to address. regime; and a lack of funding. All three of those problems often stemmed from the existence of far too Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab): The decision many quangos. I seek an assurance from my right hon. to strangle at birth the chief coroners office will be Friend that functions presently carried out by quangos viewed with dismay by many organisations, including that are to be abolished will be devolved to the local the Royal British Legion, which campaigned for it to level. improve the coroners service. Can he explain why the Opposition supported the proposal during consideration Mr Maude: Wherever possible, that is our preference. of the Coroners and Justice Act 2009, but now they are We believe in localism and in trusting local authorities in government they wish to abolish the office? to take responsibility for what they do. Our commitment to localism does not only mean devolving to local Mr Maude: In government, you have to look very authorities. In the case of consumer functions, for example, carefully at the costs and accountability. Ministers have we think that devolving beyond local authorities to not been convinced that setting up an independent citizens advice bureaux is potentially a better approach. overarching body of that nature is essential to the However, I can confirm our preference to devolve powers proper delivery of this important national function. to as close to the front line of where citizens use services as possible. Dr Sarah Wollaston (Totnes) (Con): I am looking forward to warming my hands in front of the bonfire of Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab): the quangos, with 192 on the flames. Can my right hon. Does the proposal to abolish Consumer Focus and Friend confirm how many quangos were abolished transfer its functions to citizens advice bureaux mean under the last Administration? that in the coalition’s big society a consumer and a citizen are one and the same thing? Mr Maude: I have learned to treat the claims made by the last Government with some scepticism, because they often claimed to have got rid of things, but on Mr Maude: In my experience, which I agree is limited, closer scrutiny they turned out to be merely resting, not citizens tend to be consumers and consumers tend to be defunct. I do not know whether this is a bonfire or, in citizens, so I am not absolutely certain what point the the term used by the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent hon. Lady is trying to make. Central (Tristram Hunt), a damp Sunday afternoon barbecue, but we should not knock barbecues. Stephen Barclay (North East Cambridgeshire) (Con): Current legislation requires Departments to get the best Mr Andrew Love (Edmonton) (Lab/Co-op): The Minister possible price for Government assets such as furniture, talked, both in his statement and in answer to questions, computers and other items. As part of the big society about exorbitant pay in quangos and the public sector. agenda, will the Minister consider whether donations Would it not add force to his argument if he and his could be made or other disposal routes used to support colleagues also talked about exorbitant pay in the private voluntary organisations, charities and other bodies that sector? On the transfer of employees from quangos are being squeezed at the moment and could make good back to the public services, I seek reassurance that their use of those resources? pay and conditions will be protected in that process. Mr Maude: That is an admirable suggestion, which I Mr Maude: There is a bit of a difference between pay will take away and ponder. in the private sector and pay in the public sector— [Interruption.] The fact that the hon. Gentleman finds Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): I thank it difficult to make the distinction tells us a lot about the hon. Members and Ministers. A great many Members mentality behind the last Government. In the public managed to ask short pithy questions on the statement sector, it is taxpayers’ money that is being spent and and the answers were also short. 519 14 OCTOBER 2010 Points of Order 520

Points of Order amendments today taking into consideration all of the relevant factors, and he does not require prompting from the Front Bench on this matter. 1.5 pm Mr David Davis (Haltemprice and Howden) (Con): Mr Carmichael: Further to that point of order— On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. The last century has seen changes to this House, almost all of Madam Deputy Speaker: It had better be further to which have been to the advantage of the Executive and that point of order rather than persistence in challenging the disadvantage of Back Benchers. One change that the decision on selection. has improved that situation has been the allowance of time for Back-Bench debates. I know that the Government’s Mr Carmichael: I wish to place on record beyond amendment on the Order Paper today has not been peradventure that I do not seek to challenge in any way selected, but it would have had the effect of removing the decision that has been made. I merely seek your the entire motion except for the first three words, and guidance, Madam Deputy Speaker, or possibly at some that would be a very bad trend. Can you ask Mr Speaker later stage the guidance of Mr Speaker himself, as to to look at this issue, consider what would be appropriate what new considerations are apparently taken into account in terms of amending Back-Bench motions and make it in making these decisions. clear to both Front Benches that such debates are not a second-class Opposition day? Madam Deputy Speaker: The hon. Gentleman knows full well that the selection of amendments is not discussed Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): I remind on the Floor of the House. They are a matter for the House that the amendment has not been selected Mr Speaker, having taken into consideration all the and that Mr Speaker always considers carefully the relevant factors, which he is perfectly capable of doing. question of whether to select an amendment. He takes I am sure that he will note the points that have been all the relevant factors into account and I am sure that made today, but no further points can be made to the right hon. Gentleman will be reassured that Mr Speaker question or challenge the decision by Mr Speaker on will continue to do that with the vigilance that he has this matter. I intend now to make progress with the demonstrated to date. business.

The Comptroller of Her Majesty’s Household (Mr Alistair Carmichael): Further to that point of order, Madam BILL PRESENTED Deputy Speaker. I am grateful for your assistance on that matter, but I have had regard to the terms of NATIONAL INSURANCE CONTRIBUTIONS BILL page 397 of the 23rd edition of “Erskine May”and—while Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57) I would of course not seek in any way to challenge the Mr Chancellor of the Exchequer, supported by the authority of Mr Speaker or the decision that he has Prime Minister, the Deputy Prime Minister, Secretary made in exercise of that authority today—I struggle to Vince Cable, Mr Secretary Duncan Smith, Mr Mark find a precedent for his decision not to select the Secretary Prisk, Mr Mark Hoban, Mr David Gauke and Justine of State’s amendment today. I am sure that it would be Greening, presented a Bill to make provision for and in of enormous assistance to the House— connection with increasing rates of national insurance contributions and a regional secondary Class 1 Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman contributions holiday for new businesses. is challenging the selection decisions of Mr Speaker and Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time that is not in order. I have made it absolutely clear that tomorrow, and to be printed (Bill 79) with explanatory Mr Speaker has taken the decision on the selection of notes (Bill 79-EN). 521 14 OCTOBER 2010 Contaminated Blood and Blood 522 Products “worst treatment disaster”—as it was described by Lord Backbench Business Winston, whose mother was, I think, terribly hurt in this way—in the history of the NHS. As the motion [5TH ALLOTTED DAY] makes clear, the coalition Government bear no responsibility for the maladministration, the misjudgment and the Contaminated Blood and Blood Products inadequate judgments of previous Administrations. Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab): Does Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): As Members that not make it more significant that the Government, will have noticed—I shall remind the House again— who had no responsibility for this situation, tried to Mr Speaker has not selected the amendment. move a wrecking amendment that would have totally sabotaged what my hon. Friend is trying to achieve on 1.10 pm behalf of the people concerned? Mr Geoffrey Robinson (Coventry North West) (Lab): I beg to move, Mr Robinson: My hon. Friend is, of course, absolutely right. I am very pleased to welcome the Secretary of That this House recalls that the catastrophic problems of infected blood supplied by the NHS date back to the 1970s and State to the debate, because it gives it prominence and 1980s, infecting 4,670 patients and causing what Lord Winston substance. The Backbench Business Committee has a described as the worst treatment disaster in the history of the real role to play—we have had a good debate on NHS; notes that successive administrations only very partially Afghanistan too. However, I saw the Secretary of State responded to this catastrophe by setting up and funding the shake his head to say that the amendment is not a MacFarlane Trust, the Skipton Fund and the Eileen Trust; regrets wrecking amendment. None the less, those of us who the past refusal to accept the principal recommendation of the attended a meeting yesterday with the victims of blood Independent Public Inquiry into the supply of contaminated NHS blood to haemophilia patients, chaired by Lord Archer and contamination were hoping for an amendment that we established and financed by private initiative and funds, relating could support, and he could have done something about to compensation for the victims and set out in paragraph 6(h) of that. chapter 12 of the Archer Report; further notes that earlier this The Secretary of State bears no responsibility for year the reasons for rejecting this recommendation were challenged what has happened. The NHS supplied contaminated successfully in the High Court, which quashed the decision; blood. I will not go into individual cases, except for one believes that this ruling constitutes an appropriate moment for the present Government, which bears no responsibility for the in my own constituency, which I have been following inadequate and misjudged policies of successive previous ever since the victim first approached me many years administrations, to extend an apology to the surviving 2,700 ago. This goes back to the mid-1970s, to the Callaghan sufferers, their families and the bereaved; and calls on the Government and Wilson Labour Governments and to the Thatcher to alleviate their intense hardship and suffering by accepting and Government, and, of course, to the subsequent response implementing the recommendations of the Archer Report despite to those ill-advised, inadequate judgments, made mostly the intense financial pressure on the public purse at this time. by officials or under their strong advice—clearly that is I would like to say a few things by way of preliminary the case in these cases—from the last Government background to this debate, some of which may reflect principally, although it even pre-dates them to some on the interchanges we have just had on the amendment. extent. We are not trying to blame the present coalition Opposition Back-Bench Members, and many Government Government, but there are things that they could have Members, are pleased that the whole idea behind the done, the cost of which would have fallen well short of initiative on Back-Bench business and the excellent the £3 billion which will allegedly be the cost of Committee established to promote it is that Back-Bench implementing the Archer report. Members should have the ability to move substantive As hon. Members will recall, the Archer report was motions on the Floor of the House on which they can set up under the Blair Government—in 1997-98, I think—at vote. That is what, in effect, we have secured today. Not which time I was at the Treasury. People put it to me, only would the amendment, had it been chosen, have “You were at the Treasury at the time. Why didn’t you wrecked the whole substance and heart of the motion, do something?” We did not have the report then. We but it would have wrecked the intention behind the had made papers available. It was a privately funded Backbench Business Committee. and excellent report, which I commend to all Members, I thank the Chairman of the Committee, my hon. but we did not know what it was going to recommend. Friend the Member for North East Derbyshire (Natascha Unfortunately, I left the Treasury before I was confronted Engel) and the hon. Member for Wellingborough with the implications of the report. However, under the (Mr Bone), both of whom were good enough, in their last two Labour Administrations, there were ample wisdom, to select the bid made initially by my hon. opportunities for us to respond more fully, generously Friend the Member for Pontypridd (Owen Smith), who, and comprehensively, in human terms, to the suffering of course, is now a member of the shadow Government, of the victims. and is therefore unable to move the motion today. He This was an unparalleled disaster in NHS treatment has kindly asked me to pick up the baton, which I am history involving thoroughly blameless individuals. I honoured to do, and we therefore have the opportunity met one yesterday—a gentleman from Doncaster—who today to debate a substantive motion on the Floor of had been knifed, rushed to the accident and emergency the House. department at Rotherham and given two pints of blood, The Government have missed a huge opportunity. In from which he subsequently contracted HIV/AIDS and drafting the motion, I placed great emphasis on making hepatitis C. He is now totally incapacitated, and has it an all-party motion reflecting the views of every been asked to live, after capital payments of £25,000—of Member of the House in a balanced way, and it has great value, of course, but not enormous—on £107 a commanded the support of the victims of what was the week. 523 Contaminated Blood and Blood 14 OCTOBER 2010 Contaminated Blood and Blood 524 Products Products The Government could have said, “Well, we know by this as well, both mentally and physically, and we there is a problem with, for example, the Skipton Fund, need to work together and all recognise the dreadful so we will take some steps to move that up towards the situation that these people find themselves in. level of what the previous Administration made available— inadequate though it was—in respect of HIV/AIDS.” Mr Robinson: I am pleased that the hon. Lady has Charlotte Leslie (Bristol North West) (Con): Will the joined the debate and agrees with us. Of course, hon. Gentleman give way? haemophiliacs have also been affected. The ironic tragedy there is that the treatments given were meant to deal Mr Robinson: In a moment, yes. with the basic underlying condition of the haemophilia. I will mention the name of one victim, given that he is a The Government could have done that, but they did constituent of mine—I am sure that many other Members not. All we now have is their sad, tragic adoption of will mention constituents of theirs too. Given that what previous Government’s did. That is a great pity, a 4,670 initial cases were affected, and given that there are great sadness, and does not reflect well on them. When 650 constituencies, nearly every constituency must have they reflect on the matter, they will come to think that had at least one tragic occurrence. I will therefore they should have handled the matter very differently. mention Joseph Peaty. He is a haemophiliac who went Had the Government proposed what I have suggested, for treatment to correct his underlying condition, but which would have cost a minimum amount—nothing because of the contaminated blood products, he acquired like the sums talked about now—we could have voted both HIV/AIDS and hepatitis C. He is watching this for it and then, at 4.30 pm, when this debate ends, gone debate and looking for us to offer victims something back to meet the victims in Committee Room 14 and more. There is no way we could accept the amendment. told them that this Government have finally broken with the previous, inadequate and ill-judged consensus and reaction. We have never asked them to take Mrs Madeleine Moon (Bridgend) (Lab): Does my responsibility. However, they could also have extended hon. Friend agree that the real tragedy, especially for a gesture of an apology, which the victims are also haemophiliacs, is that it is not just individuals who are looking for. Sadly, however, the Government have, in affected, but whole families? The condition runs in the effect, done nothing but take on the same old weary family, so two or three family members could be affected. mantle that we have seen for the last 20 years. They are The fact that people are living with such stress as a already getting tired: they have lost their verve and the result of failure of successive Governments to tackle ability to respond energetically and imaginatively to the issue is something that this House should totally situations. It is very sad. condemn. We must take a decision today, and not allow the issue to slip further down the agenda. Mr Robert Syms (Poole) (Con): Will the hon. Gentleman give way? Mr Robinson: I agree entirely with my hon. Friend, who makes a most poignant and correct intervention, if Mr Robinson: I promised to give way to the hon. I may say so. We had a unique opportunity. The issue Member for Bristol North West (Charlotte Leslie) first. had moved right up in the public’s awareness. The sort of thing that we get in these debates is everybody saying Charlotte Leslie: I appreciate the tone, spirit and how terrible it is, but then heaving a sigh of relief that intended outcome of what the hon. Gentleman is trying they have not been affected, and on we go. The months to do. As a newcomer to the House, however, may I ask and years drag by, and so the number comes down, what, over the past 13 years, he did to encourage the from 4,600 to 2,700. Perhaps not many will be affected, previous Government to deliver payments I believe but as my hon. Friend said, the nature of the diseases is should have been made? At that time, the public finances that they spread, and the suffering will continue long were not in such a diabolical state and compensation after most of us have left this House. would have been much easier to give.

Mr Robinson: Unfortunately, the hon. Lady is trying Robert Flello (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Lab): I am to inject a party position into this debate, which those grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way. At the end of of us who have been involved in it have tried to exclude the 1980s, I worked with someone called Colin, who from it. We have said that past responses were inadequate had been injured abroad, had a blood transfusion and and ill-judged—it says that in the motion. I regret that got haemophilia. He then returned to the UK for ongoing we did not deal with the matter, and I like to think that treatment, but ended up getting contaminated blood had I remained at the Treasury, I could have done and dying from HIV at the beginning of the 1990s. It is something. I am open about that too; we all ought to be for people such as Colin that we are here today. This is open here. However, those who say that I, as a former not a partisan issue; it is an issue that we should have Treasury Minister, should appreciate our legacy are dealt with in the past 13 years—it should have been missing the central point: there will never be a good dealt with before that—but let us deal with it now. time to do something like this. There will always be bureaucratic arguments, and precedent arguments, and Mr Robinson: I am grateful for my hon. Friend’s arguments we cannot foresee now but which will one intervention, which I wholly accept and entirely agree day be made, for why we should do nothing, and the with. Government have caved into them. That is the reality.

Lorraine Fullbrook (South Ribble) (Con): I am sure Mr Syms rose— that the hon. Gentleman agrees that this is a horrendously tragic occurrence. Many haemophiliacs have been affected Mr George Howarth (Knowsley) (Lab) rose— 525 Contaminated Blood and Blood 14 OCTOBER 2010 Contaminated Blood and Blood 526 Products Products Mr Robinson: The hon. Gentleman has been very Anne Milton: I have to ask again whether the hon. persistent, so I will give way to him and then to my right Gentleman has read the written ministerial statement. I hon. Friend, but if the House will forgive me, thereafter have said that I will look at certain aspects and I will I want to get on, because we have limited time and I report by Christmas, because I am acutely aware that have agreed to keep my opening remarks to the minimum campaigners on the issue have been left hanging for far too long. Mr Syms: This is an important issue for so many families and people affected. I am not sure whether the Mr Robinson: Very good, but let me say this to the motion will be agreed to today—that depends on the Minister, who is obviously genuinely concerned about vote a little later—but the important thing is to make the issue, as all Ministers have been. As my right hon. progress. The Government have said in their statement Friend the Member for Knowsley said, there are always that they will undertake a review of the Archer report, two or three big issues, and this is certainly one of them, which is good. However, we ought to be pressing them a so we wait to hear. [Interruption.] The Minister should little further, so that hon. Members such as the hon. not tell us that we have not read the statement; we spent Gentleman and I can be part of that review, lobbying all yesterday trying to get a copy of the amendment, Ministers and having meetings with them. Should he which seemed to be in the ether somewhere. Indeed, I not be suggesting to those on the Treasury Bench that asked her to e-mail me a copy yesterday at about 6 pm, some of us ought to be in the Department of Health but we could not see it even then. I have referred to the discussing the matter further? statement, which I think is useless, but why is it not referred to in the wording that is before the House? She Mr Robinson: I will give way to my right hon. Friend did not want it there because it would carry more the Member for Knowsley (Mr Howarth) and respond weight. to both questions immediately afterwards. Mr Steve Brine (Winchester) (Con): If the hon. Mr George Howarth: I am grateful to my hon. Friend Gentleman has read the ministerial statement, before and congratulate him on the measured way in which he coming here and pouring scorn on the Front Bench, can is conducting this debate. Does he agree that in every he say which of the recommendations in the statement generation there are two or three major injustices that he agrees with? have to be addressed? They cannot always be pinned on to a given Government, but this issue is one of those injustices, and we have to put it right now. Mr Robinson: I am not terribly interested in a statement in the Commons Library; I am interested in what is [Interruption.] Mr Robinson: I entirely agree with my right hon. said— I will tell hon. Members why: we Friend—this is indeed a good moment to do that—but have been through that already. It was clear what was [Interruption.] sadly I disagree with the hon. Member for Poole (Mr Syms), said at questions— I am amazed that because we have had reviews. hon. Members can behave like that. Do they not realise that it is what is said at the Dispatch Box that counts, In passing, let me make a positive reference to a and that what counts is what the Government are former colleague in the Government at the time. As I prepared to do? We have had umpteen statements about understand it, the previous Secretary of State for reviews, and so have the victims. I invite the hon. Health—my right hon. Friend the Member for Leigh Gentleman and the Minister to join me immediately (Andy Burnham)—opened up one aspect of the issue, after this debate, at 4.30 pm, in Committee Room 14 to through the Skipton Fund in particular, although if I meet the victims and see what reaction they get. Let us am wrong and the Minister wants to correct me, I just see. Let him wave his hands at them and say, “We’re should be only too happy to take an interjection from going to review this.” The victims want closure. They her. He did that last year to see whether there was any are fed up: they have been sentenced to long, lingering way of increasing Skipton to the levels of HIV/AIDS and wretched death sentences by successive Administrations. compensation—that proposal was put to me forcefully at meetings with the victims yesterday, and I am sure This Government had an opportunity to make a new that it will be again when we meet them at 4.30 pm start and bring closure to this great human tragedy, but today. If we could do that, it would be a step forward they have refused to do so. For that reason, we are very and we would feel that we were going in the right pleased indeed—I am particularly pleased, as the mover direction. If the Minister wants to tell me that that is the of the motion—that Mr Speaker has called the motion case, I would be very pleased to hear that. and that we can vote on it. I urge Government Members to vote with us, in an attempt to shame all those, in all parts of the House, who have had sufferers in their The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health constituencies, yet will not stand with us in this important (Anne Milton): I have to ask the hon. Gentleman whether Division. We will therefore move the motion to a vote in he has read the written ministerial statement, because at due course, and I hope that all Members present will the end it points out that we will be reviewing certain vote for it. aspects.

Mr Robinson: That is my whole point: “We will be Several hon. Members rose— reviewing.” This has been going on for a year already. Who can put his hand on his heart and honestly say that Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. May I remind hon. anything more will come out of the review than we have Members that Mr Speaker has set a time limit on already had? Nobody with any experience of this House speeches of five minutes? That does not mean that every or how Government works can say that. Today is the Member has to take all their five minutes. Some 24 or moment. more Members wish to participate in this important 527 Contaminated Blood and Blood 14 OCTOBER 2010 Contaminated Blood and Blood 528 Products Products debate, so I ask you all to help your colleagues out by single step towards our aims, even in relation to the making your points succinctly, so that we can get in as Skipton Fund. We cannot accept that. We wanted a many speakers as possible. good amendment that we could vote for and unite around, so that the motion could have stood, as amended, Mr Tom Clarke (Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill) in a progressive way that would have allowed us to step (Lab): On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. forward. Because the Government did not give us such Will you confirm that if Members take interventions an amendment, however, we are back where we were. during those five minutes, they will be given penalty We could not, in all honesty, let the victims down, which time? is why I was forced to move the motion as it stands. Madam Deputy Speaker: I can confirm that the normal Mr Dorrell: I understand the hon. Gentleman’s point. procedure for interventions and compensation time apply It is not for me to comment on the way in which the to those five minutes. I hope that that is clear. negotiations between him and the Government proceeded, but unfortunately, that is not the question on which the 1.28 pm House is being asked to decide. I return to the proposition that today is different from normal political days in the Mr Stephen Dorrell (Charnwood) (Con): I congratulate House, because the House is being asked to make a the hon. Member for Coventry North West (Mr Robinson) decision. It is being asked to decide whether the Government on bringing this important, sensitive and emotive issue should be committed to align compensation payments before the House. I congratulate him also on the tone—until with those currently payable in Ireland, and I do not perhaps the last couple of minutes of his speech—in agree with that proposition. I shall vote against it—albeit which he moved the motion. He was absolutely right with a heavy heart, because I accept much of what the hon. that this is not a question of the coalition defending its Gentleman has said about the context and the history record; it is a question of the hon. Gentleman bringing of these matters. The motion is not about the context a substantive proposition before the House for it to and the history, however; it is about what happens next. decide on. In the week before the comprehensive spending review, In those circumstances,I would suggest to the hon. it would not be sensible to agree to the commitment of Gentleman and the House that it is more than usually £3 billion to align our arrangements with those in important that Members who vote on the motion Ireland. understand precisely what its implications are. He had a lot to say—all of which I agree with—about the human Alun Michael (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op): tragedy, the system failure and the slow response of Does the right hon. Gentleman, with all his ministerial successive Governments over 25 years. That is not in experience, accept that the House—individual Back dispute. Sadly, however, I shall not be supporting the Benchers and Ministers—is being asked to consider the hon. Gentleman in the Lobby, because of the part of human impact and the ways in which that can be the motion that says that this House alleviated? Individuals and families have been devastated “regrets the past refusal to accept the principal recommendation by the impact of contaminated blood—not only the of the Independent Public Inquiry…relating to compensation for medical impact but the social impact and the undermining the victims and set out in paragraph 6(h)…of the” of family confidence. Can we focus on that in coming to inquiry report. a decision in the debate? What the hon. Gentleman describes as the “principal Mr Dorrell: I absolutely agree with a huge amount of recommendation” of the report is at the heart of the what the right hon. Gentleman says. That is why I believe motion. The House must therefore understand precisely that the proposal made by my hon. Friend the Minister what that recommendation says, which is: offers a sensible way forward. I said earlier that I agreed “We suggest that payments should be at least the equivalent of with much of what the hon. Member for Coventry those payable under the Scheme which applies at any time in North West said, until he got to the last couple of Ireland.” minutes of his speech, when the Minister asked him Let us be clear what has actually happened in the whether he was prepared to sign up to the terms of evolution of policy on this subject. The previous reference of what the Government propose to do if, as I Government accepted many of the other recommendations hope, the House rejects his motion. The Government in the Archer report, but they explicitly refused to are proposing to set up not a committee to think about accept the recommendation that the compensation this matter in the abstract, but a specific inquiry to report payments should be aligned with at least the level before the end of the year. The inquiry will review payable in Ireland. We are advised by the Government “the level of ex gratia payments made to those affected by that payments at such a level would cost the Treasury hepatitis C” about £3 billion. There is no controversy around the and—this will answer the point raised earlier—take into history of these matters or the emotion involved, or account the comparison with ex-gratia payments made about how we got to where we are, but the House is in the UK to those infected with HIV.It will also review being asked to accept that we should commit the “the mechanisms by which all ex-gratia payments are made”, Government to spending £3 billion on aligning our which was a specific recommendation in the Archer compensation payments with those currently payable in report. It will consider the provision for insurance—which Ireland. has also been widely discussed in this context—and the Mr Robinson: We set out the motion in those terms issue of prescription charging, which Archer also because that was very much what the victims wanted. recommended. It will also review the provision of and However, the Government had the opportunity to respond access to with a constructive amendment, rather than a wrecking “nursing and other care services in the community” amendment that has no substance and takes not a for those affected. 529 Contaminated Blood and Blood 14 OCTOBER 2010 Contaminated Blood and Blood 530 Products Products [Mr Dorrell] Mr Clarke: Indeed, a lot of people in the Haemophilia Society and other supporters of my hon. Friend the I assume that Government are not asking the House Member for Coventry North West are genuinely looking to reject the motion and simply carry on as though forward to what the Under-Secretary of State for Health, nothing had happened; I certainly will not do so. We all the hon. Member for Guildford (Anne Milton) is going accept the context, but I would ask the House to to offer them before Christmas. consider carefully whether, instead of committing £3 billion That said, I want to go on to talk about one of my to aligning our payments with those of Ireland, a better constituents, with whom I had a discussion yesterday. proposal would be to set up the review that the Minister The House has to accept its responsibilities on these recommends in her written statement, with the terms of matters, including its responsibilities for delay after reference that I have just outlined, in order better to delay, even though evidence has been available. We have meet the pressures that the hon. Member for Coventry not given a response to the people who are suffering North West rightly says are a human tragedy to which very gravely. We are talking about a number of people the House should respond. dying, families bereft of their members and the impact of not having acted previously. There is the issue of not 1.36 pm having proper regard to the blood we are using. Then there is the use of American blood from we know not Mr Tom Clarke (Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill) where, and now the decision taken not to use UK blood (Lab): I have a great regard for the right hon. Member because we think there might be an element leading to for Charnwood (Mr Dorrell), but if there had been an new variant CJD. Frankly, a degree of incompetence is alternative to the motion tabled by my hon. Friend the evident, which people interested in our debate will find Member for Coventry North West (Mr Robinson), that hugely unacceptable. would have been helpful to us in the debate. Ms Diane Abbott (Hackney North and Stoke Newington) Mr Geoffrey Robinson: On that point, if the Government (Lab): My right hon. Friend talked about American intend to do what they have outlined in their written blood from we know not where. The tragedy is that we statement, why did they not table an amendment to that do know where much of it came from. It was from paid effect? Why did they squirrel the information away in a donors, many of whom were prisoners and drug addicts, statement in the Library? The right hon. Member for leading to consequences about which we all now know. Charnwood is long enough in the tooth to know that they have not deliberately done it like this, but had they Mr Clarke: I am grateful for my hon. Friend’s tabled such an amendment, incorporating their statement, intervention. we would have been very inclined to vote for it— The kind of information that we have—and we have had interventions year after year—in terms of giving us Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. Interventions must the facts and the evidence, quite apart from what our be interventions; the hon. Gentleman must not make constituents are drawing to our attention, was embraced another speech. in Lord Archer’s report, to which the motion refers. That report, which I very much welcome, led to Lord Morris of Manchester—both our noble Friends have Mr Clarke: I feel that there ought to be more humility done a commendable job in bringing these issues to our on both sides of the House as we debate this matter, and attention—attempting to deal with the problem through I hope that I shall be able to exercise some myself. This legislation. A Bill came to this House at the beginning issue has not been properly dealt with by Governments of this year, but where did it go? Nowhere. of all shades for a quarter of a century. It is amazing, but this is our first debate on the subject in a quarter of That brings me to what this issue means for our a century. I welcome the debate, and as the motion constituents. I spoke yesterday to a man in my tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Coventry constituency—I will not name him—who is now 36. He North West is the only practical proposal before the described the bizarre experiences of his case. He talked House, I shall take pride in voting for it. I have held a about the secrecy surrounding these matters. The excellent number of responsibilities myself, including that of Yorkhill hospital in Glasgow has a very good reputation, shadow spokesperson on disability. The hon. Member but a large number of papers pertaining to it have for Bristol North West (Charlotte Leslie) asked earlier simply gone missing. My constituent talked about the what had been done so far, and the answer is: not stigma of having hepatitis C; he had been told for many enough. years that he did not have hepatitis A or B, and was lucky not to have AIDS. His doctor withheld information on his particular case for more than a year. He told me Mr Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight) (Con): Does the only yesterday what the real problems were—for example, right hon. Gentleman recognise that this Government the difficulty of getting life insurance and a mortgage came into office only about five months ago, and that for himself and his partner. they are trying to get a lot of things sorted out? I am not blaming the right hon. Gentleman, but I am trying to explain what is happening. To wait for two or three Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab): Will my right hon. Friend months longer for this important decision is a small give way? price to pay, and I do not understand why he and the hon. Member for Coventry North West are worried Mr Clarke: I am sorry, I do not have time. about waiting for three months, because that is the My constituent also talked about the increased premium difference between the proposal in the motion and what he faced in getting travel insurance. People are clearly the Government are proposing. being penalised again and again because they had the 531 Contaminated Blood and Blood 14 OCTOBER 2010 Contaminated Blood and Blood 532 Products Products misfortune to find themselves with this condition of Adam Afriyie (Windsor) (Con): My constituent Sarah haemophilia and then found, as they approached the Vergopoulos came to see me when her brother died national health service, that their condition was made because of infected blood just last year. She was most unacceptably worse. I want to thank the organisations concerned to ensure that something would actually that have helped. With particular reference to Scotland, happen as a result of this debate. It seems to me that I want to thank Mr Philip Nolan, who spent several this debate—I commend the Backbench Business hours with my constituent and me, and who, it seems to Committee on it—has already been a success, because me, has been in London almost every week for years, something has already happened. The review has been preaching to us the necessity to act. announced and a timeline has been given to ensure that My constituent referred yesterday to the position in something will come forward this side of Christmas. I Northern Ireland. I do not want to open up yet another can thus report back to my constituent that just by party political debate, but the truth of the matter is that holding this debate, something has already moved, which even with its economic difficulties, Ireland—if I said might not have moved without it. Northern Ireland yesterday, I should have said Ireland—has not abandoned its scheme. Jenny Willott: The hon. Gentleman is correct. This debate on the Floor of the House is something that Mr David Davis (Haltemprice and Howden) (Con) many of those affected have called for for a number of rose— years. For them, it is important that that has been recognised and that Ministers are now listening to Members Mr Clarke: I am sorry, but I do not have enough time of all parties expressing their views. to give way. If the scheme means getting earlier acceptance on to Mr David Davis: Like the hon. Lady, I would have the waiting list and getting problems recognised, and if liked the debate to be less partisan than it has been so our constituents should not be doubly penalised for far. Her example highlights what a tragedy this has been something that is not their fault, I am with my constituent and what an injustice has been committed. Although we in saying that justice delayed is justice denied—and we are in the midst of a massive financial crisis, we should have denied justice for far too long. Today provides us all recognise that tragedies and injustices like this deserve with an opportunity to put that right. priority in spending terms over everything else.

1.44 pm Jenny Willott: I agree with the right hon. Gentleman. Jenny Willott (Cardiff Central) (LD): It is good to I am disappointed that, as was announced in the statement have this debate today on an issue that I worked on earlier today, not all the recommendations will be reviewed. throughout the last Parliament. Last year we managed to secure an Adjournment debate on the subject in Sir Robert Smith (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) Westminster Hall, but we have sought a debate in this (LD): Does my hon. Friend welcome the fact—I hope Chamber for a very long time. I believe that the last that the Minister will expand on it—that the issue of debate on this issue was in 1990, and much has changed compensation for the hepatitis C victims will be addressed, since then. A great deal has already been said about the as that seems to be a very important part of the case? figures. The hon. Member for Coventry North West (Mr Robinson) talked about how many people have Jenny Willott: Indeed, and I was just coming to that been affected: 1,200 infected with HIV, 4,670 infected point. As Members will be aware, the previous Government with hepatitis C, and so far more than 1,800 people have lost a judicial review in April when Lord Archer’s died. recommendations for increasing compensation in line I got involved because of the human side to the issue, with payments in Ireland seemed to be rejected out of and I would like to pay tribute to my constituent, hand. My concern is that today’s statement appears to Haydn Lewis, an absolute stalwart of the campaign. He do something similar, so I am somewhat disappointed was one those infected, and he had hepatitis B, hepatitis C at the wording of it. and HIV, and was lately told that he was potentially exposed to variant Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease as a result Nia Griffith: Will the hon. Lady give way? of the contaminated blood products that he had been given. He finally developed liver cancer because of the Jenny Willott: I will, but for the final time. hepatitis C, and tragically, he died this summer, after spending 20-odd years campaigning on behalf of the Nia Griffith: I commend the hon. Lady for the excellent people who had been infected. He was a superb campaigner. work she has done, including the Adjournment debate He galvanised people across the country. He came to that she mentioned, which I too attended. I also commend the most recent lobby earlier this year, even though he her for lobbying Ministers. Does she agree that what she was extremely ill. He also did a huge amount of research really wants is some firm commitment from the Government into what happened in the ’70s and the ’80s. He came to Front-Bench team—something concrete that she can go see me almost as soon as I was elected to try to get me home with, rather than having to push things back involved in the campaign. again and again, as has happened in the past? As has already been said, it should be made clear that this is not a party political issue. This has happened Jenny Willott: The fact that we have a deadline of under Governments of all colours and all Governments Christmas for the report is very helpful. That is not too did something, but in my opinion we still have a long far away, and a concrete date has been specified. I hope way to go. I am really glad that the Government have that the Minister will ensure that we get the response by announced their intention to review some of Archer’s that time, and that if given the chance later, she will recommendations. That is good news. speak further on that subject. 533 Contaminated Blood and Blood 14 OCTOBER 2010 Contaminated Blood and Blood 534 Products Products [Jenny Willott] their resilience and determination. Peter discovered that he was a mild haemophiliac in 1976. One day in 1985 he The time that this process is taking is clearly a major came home from work with bruising on his leg. He went issue. Given that it has taken more than 20 years even to hospital, where he was treated with contaminated to hold an inquiry, the least the victims deserve is for blood and infected with hepatitis C. What resulted the recommendations to be considered seriously, even immediately was a desperate illness followed by, in the those that would be expensive to implement. Lord longer term, worsening bleeds and severe liver damage. Archer made a number of sensible and important Fred was also a mild haemophiliac, although his recommendations, and although many have been condition is now severe. He has never been able to implemented, a number still need to be acted on. Some identify precisely when he became infected with hepatitis would be expensive to implement, but others would not. C, although it is certain that, although tests were carried Improved compensation is clearly the most controversial, out throughout the 1980s that would have confirmed and I appreciate that in the current financial climate the his condition, he was never told. Only after the chance Government will find it hard to deal with, but, as was reading of a leaflet in 1993 did he ask whether he was pointed out by my hon. Friend the Member for West infected, and he was finally told the truth. He was then Aberdeenshire and Kincardine (Sir Robert Smith), other told to go home, and that there was nothing to worry issues, too, have not been considered properly so far. about. Life for Fred means often feeling extremely cold. For instance, patients with hepatitis C are treated differently He suffers from severe bleeding, and now has sclerosis from, and worse than, those with HIV. That simply is of the liver. For Eleanor, life means not only supporting not fair. The widows of those who died before August Fred and enduring severe financial hardship, but having 2003 receive nothing, and that is not fair either. Those to live for years unaware of the risks that she faced to who are infected cannot obtain insurance, which has her own health because Fred had never been told the massive implications for their lives. truth about his condition. Mr Gordon Marsden (Blackpool South) (Lab): The What Peter, Fred and Eleanor find hardest to bear is hon. Lady has been very generous in giving way. I do covered in chapter 7 of Lord Archer’s report—namely not wish to be partisan, but do not some elements of that doctors knew about the risks involved in treating the statement give us pause? It refers to access to patients with blood products, but failed to inform them. insurance. “Access” is a very vague word. It is not just a There is no doubt that Fred and Peter, who were both question of access; as constituents have pointed out to mild haemophiliacs, would never have consented to me, it is a question of provision as well. Does the hon. treatment with contaminated blood products which carried Lady agree that the Government need to be much a high risk of infection with HIV and hepatitis C. clearer about that in the terms of reference? However, it is not only the doctors who failed to explain the dangers. It seems to me, and indeed to all of us, that Jenny Willott: I hope that they are clear about it both the whole health system was caught up in what amounts in the terms of reference and in the final review and to a conspiracy of silence. announcement. Although the issue is not particularly I have a copy of a letter dated 31 July 1981 from a glamorous, and is fairly complicated and difficult for member of staff in the Department of Health and people to understand, it has massive implications for Social Security to an official in the Treasury. The letter day-to-day life, and it really does need to be dealt with is headed “Blood products laboratory—redevelopment”. sooner rather than later. It states, among other things, that The victims of the tragedy were infected more than “health authorities are obliged to supplement supplies from BPL 20 years ago. This has gone on for a very long time. Year with expensive and, because of the hepatitis risk, less safe imported by year we are losing those victims: people such as commercial blood products at a cost of up to £10m annually.” Haydn are, tragically, passing away each year. We cannot let this drag on any longer. Being a politician is about People at the top of the DHSS knew the risks, but standing up and representing people who cannot represent patients were not informed, and four years after that themselves. Haydn can no longer represent himself, and letter was written, my constituent Peter Mossman was many other people who are affected by this are no infected with hepatitis C. longer able to speak for themselves. It is our job to stand up and do the right thing, and I hope very much Mr Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab): Is my hon. that we can do that today. Friend aware that it has been estimated that as many as 90% of haemophiliacs who were treated with blood in 1.52 pm the 1970s and 1980s have at least one life-threatening disease? Paul Goggins (Wythenshawe and Sale East) (Lab): I pay tribute to the hon. Member for Cardiff Central (Jenny Willott), both for her work and for her speech, Paul Goggins: I am aware of that. What I am trying and I join my hon. Friend the Member for Coventry to emphasise is that if my constituents, and indeed North West (Mr Robinson) in paying tribute to Lord many others, had been given proper information, they Archer for his report—and also to Lord Morris of would have been able to make a balanced decision Manchester, who was my predecessor as Member of about the risks that they faced. Parliament for Manchester, Wythenshawe, and has done We all have constituents who will have their own so much work on this and many other issues. stories, and as a result of the Archer report we now have Much of my understanding of this issue comes from a definite analysis of what went wrong. The great thing the experience of three of my constituents: Peter Mossman, about the report, however, is that it points the way Fred Bates and Fred’s wife Eleanor. I pay tribute to forward. It is now a case of what we can do to support 535 Contaminated Blood and Blood 14 OCTOBER 2010 Contaminated Blood and Blood 536 Products Products those who survive in the circumstances in which they 2pm find themselves, and I believe that we need to do at least four things. Caroline Nokes (Romsey and Southampton North) (Con): I thank the hon. Member for Coventry North First, there needs to be an apology. I know that some West (Mr Robinson) for securing this debate and all the people feel that an apology is just words and is therefore Members who have spoken in it thus far. Many of them meaningless, but in June this year the Prime Minister mentioned by name constituents who have suffered as a proved from the Dispatch Box that that is not the case result of receiving contaminated blood products, but on when he gave an unequivocal apology to the families of Monday I received a visit from a constituent who specifically Derry for what had occurred on 30 January 1972. That did not wish to be named because she still feels that she apology means a lot to those families, and it is enabling suffers a stigma as a result of having hepatitis C. She them to move forward. I believe that haemophiliacs does not want it talked about and she is embarrassed, infected with hepatitis C and HIV deserve no less. but it is not just she who suffers; so, too, does her son. Secondly, there must be proper financial recompense. There is never a good time to get a Government to There is a debate about that. Archer recommends commit to significant spending, but this is a new Parliament equivalence with the Irish scheme, but the Government with a bright, shiny new Government and we should ruled that out today, and are to institute a review celebrate the fact that we finally have the opportunity to instead. Whatever the outcome of that review, it must hold this debate on the Floor of the House of Commons be demonstrably fair to those who have been affected. some 20 years after the subject under discussion became There must be a level playing field between those infected an issue. with, respectively, hepatitis C and HIV. Thirdly, there Not many people in Romsey and Southampton North must be no impact on benefit entitlement: any recompense have been infected as a result of having received must be over and above the benefit payments that contaminated blood products, but a handful have, and people receive. it is tragic to hear some of them say that although they would like to be present today they do not feel they can Charlotte Leslie: I want to pay tribute to my constituent afford the train fare to come to London. Indeed, even Bob Purnell, who died, his son Edward, and his wife those who have travelled have welcomed the fact that Gill. I also want to dispel any misunderstanding that the debate is being held in the afternoon so they do not there may have been about the debate’s being partisan. I have to pay peak-time train fares to attend it. welcome it very much. I wish to make a specific point to the Minister, but let I think we all appreciate that the Government are in a me first say that I welcome parts of the written statement, difficult position because of the financial situation. because elements of it represent progress, and the people Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that if we cannot in the Public Gallery who have travelled here today make the payments that I think we would all like to want to see progress on this issue. They do not want a make to victims who have suffered greatly, it might be partisan row to develop on the Floor of the House; they possible to increase payments in future as the economic want us to make moves in the right direction. situation becomes more viable? One constituent who came to see me made some points about insurance. She and her family find it difficult to enjoy a family holiday because it is hard for Paul Goggins: I am pleased that the hon. Lady has them to get travel insurance. There are similar difficulties had an opportunity to mention and pay tribute to her with life insurance and mortgages, and therefore it can constituent. There may be an argument for staging be hard for people to buy their own property and have payments over time, but the Government must be clear the security that that provides. I therefore welcome the about the award and the level of compensation at the parts of the statement that make reference to insurance outset. because it is important. Finally, the whole social care and health system must The specific point I wish to make is about dentistry. It become much more sensitive to the needs of those who may not be particularly widely known that hepatitis C were caught up in this tragedy. There must be more sufferers frequently have significant problems with gum sympathetic treatment for those who have been infected disease. A constituent of mine therefore wanted to have and their carers. easier access to NHS dentistry. I hope the Minister will I regret the fact that we were not able to do more over take that point on board, and be prepared to make the past 13 years to support and assist this particular some sort of dentistry provision in future. group. I want to compliment the Minister, because I My constituents are not greedy people. Both those know from conversations that I have had and from who have travelled here today and those who have not things that I have read that she has gained a fair amount have stressed to me that they wish there to be fair of confidence from those who were caught up in the compensation, and that they wish to have help from this tragedy, and from members of the haemophiliac community. Government. They do not wish to apportion blame My guess is that her experience of the health service, because there has not been any progress over the past along with her own personal qualities, has led her to 20 years. What they want is progress now. want to deal with the situation and, in her own words, to get closure before the end of the year. Let me say to 2.2 pm her that having come so far so quickly, she now carries a huge burden of responsibility to ensure that the solution Steve Rotheram (Liverpool, Walton) (Lab): Appropriately, that she comes up with retains that confidence, and I am wearing a black tie today both to acknowledge the does not further dash the hopes of a community who fact that many people have died because of contaminated have been so badly let down in the past. blood products before they had the opportunity to see a 537 Contaminated Blood and Blood 14 OCTOBER 2010 Contaminated Blood and Blood 538 Products Products [Steve Rotheram] Steve Rotheram: I absolutely agree, and the hon. Member for Colne Valley (Jason McCartney) agrees full debate on the subject in this Chamber, and to pay with our view as well. He said: respects to a constituent of mine, James McVey, who “It really is time that as a Country, as a government (and forget died tragically at the weekend at the age of just 18. His whatever Party it is), we should now take responsibility for this. death is not related to this issue, but I am sure that all It’s a completely shocking scandal.” Members on both sides of the House would want to Let me tell Members about what happened to a join me in sending our condolences to his family and constituent of mine, Mr Christopher Munn. In 1981, he friends. was mugged and stabbed. He received a blood transfusion I thank the Backbench Business Committee for bringing and contracted hepatitis C. For years, Mr Munn fought this long-neglected issue firmly back on to the political for recognition, support and compensation but, unable agenda. It is to our great shame that it is necessary to to afford legal representation, he found himself led a have a debate on it so long after the original events, and merry dance, and was swatted away like some bothersome it is an indictment of previous Administrations that pest. An initial application to the Skipton Fund was many of the issues surrounding the contaminated blood rejected but, thankfully, on appeal, some 25 years after disaster remain unresolved to this day. being infected he was awarded a few thousand pounds. The case for making adequate reparations to the Now, £25,000 or £45,000 is no small sum, but if we do victims and their families has been eloquently made the maths it quickly becomes apparent how risible that both today and on previous occasions in this House and amount actually is when spread over 25 years and more. in the other place. However, I have never heard a more This issue is largely about the money of course. Many stirring description of the tragedy and its effects on victims, severely debilitated by conditions developed as individual lives than the emotional personal account of a direct result of contaminated blood, have been struggling one young gentleman in Committee Room 7 yesterday. to meet their medical needs, let alone achieve a comfortable His words will stay with me for a very long time. standard of living. However, the issue is also about the need for acknowledgement. Victims need the state to David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con): In common accept unreservedly and unconditionally its responsibility with many other speakers, the hon. Gentleman is making for their plight, and to meet its moral obligations. For a powerful case for compensation, and I think all Members the NHS and, by extension, the current Government to have sympathy with that. However, given the pain being retain their integrity, they must make amends. To those caused by the £1 billion saved by getting rid of child who have challenged Labour Members with comments benefit for higher rate taxpayers, where does he think such as, “But what did your Government do about it?”, that £3 billion will come from? Does he have the courage my answer is very simple: not enough. to tell the House which budget we should cut to pay that compensation? Penny Mordaunt (Portsmouth North) (Con): Will the hon. Gentleman give way? Steve Rotheram: I am being encouraged to make a party political point, but as my mum used to say, “Two Steve Rotheram: No, as I am conscious of time. wrongs don’t make a right,” and, believe me, if I were The bottom line is that successive Governments sitting on the Government Benches now I would be irrespective of their political persuasion hesitated over saying exactly the same thing. On this issue, it does not investing resources and setting precedents. They were matter what political party we are in. all equally culpable in failing the victims, but rather The NHS failed almost 5,000 people. Through using than bang on about who did or did not do what and contaminated blood and blood products, it made ill when, let us finally seize the opportunity to right a people more ill, sometimes fatally so. It made perfectly terrible wrong. healthy individuals—accident victims requiring blood I fully appreciate that money is tight, but morality is transfusions, for example—unwell for life. Indeed, as absolute, not some relative concept that expands and many have said this fiasco was, in Lord Winston’s contracts to suit circumstances. We cannot as a society words, be more moral in good times than in bad. The Government “the worst treatment disaster in the history of the NHS”. have spoken about compassion and fairness and “the The state should have gone out of its way decades caring society”. They have no option but to put their ago to compensate victims financially and in kind, not money where their mouth is in order to put right a only to accept responsibility, but proactively to alleviate decade-old wrong. the adverse impact of its mistakes. Instead, successive Governments have prevaricated; they have been reluctant to acknowledge fault and loth to carry the can financially. 2.10 pm Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con): I Sajid Javid (Bromsgrove) (Con): Constituents of mine, thank the Backbench Business Committee for tabling such as a gentleman, whom I will not name, who this motion, because it is vital that such important, contracted both HIV and hepatitis C at the age of five, tragic and sensitive issues get debated on the Floor of have made it clear that they do not want Members to the House. I welcome the statement by the Minister, consider the issue on a party political basis, and I because over a number of years those affected by this welcome the fact that the hon. Gentleman is reflecting problem have gone on a rollercoaster journey. That is that wish in his tone. It is incumbent on every Member because in recent years the Archer report has been to put party politics aside and to do all we can to ensure published, the Government have taken a position and a that this matter is treated as a top priority, while also judicial review has been undertaken, and now we have taking into account the constraints on the state. reached a point where a Government are saying, “Within 539 Contaminated Blood and Blood 14 OCTOBER 2010 Contaminated Blood and Blood 540 Products Products five months a review will take place and within three 2.14 pm months we will come back with a position.” If that Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab): I wish to review can be carried out earlier than the end of the say a few words about my constituent, Andrew March, year, I ask the Minister to ensure that it is, because time who is a victim of contaminated blood. He is not only a is running out for some of the victims of this tragedy. remarkable man and campaigner; he is the reason we I wish to discuss the case of the father of one of my are talking about this today, because he was the claimant constituents, who suffered from a rare form of haemophilia. in the judicial review that led to the written ministerial In 1984, he cut his finger while working, was given statement. That statement was correctly attacked by my factor VIII to clot the blood and, as a result, has hon. Friend the Member for Coventry North West suffered from HIV and hepatitis C. It was not until four (Mr Robinson) today. years later, when different blood samples were taken I am new to Mr March, in the sense that he has been away and different analysis was done, that he was told a constituent of mine since May, as he lives in the that he had hepatitis and HIV. He then had to tell his Hammersmith and Fulham part of the constituency wife, but at that point he was not given any specific that I inherited. However, I have caught up quickly with counselling—not only between 1984 and 1989, but to what he has been doing over many years and decades. this very day, no specific counselling has been given to The easiest way for me to summarise his predicament him, and that must urgently be reviewed. and what he has done is to read from a letter that he On the funding comparison with Ireland, from 1989 sent to me on 23 July. He said: until today, this individual has received £78,000 in total “I was one of the young children at the time of the AIDS compensation over a number of years, with £6,400 per outbreak, and I had to cope with being told that I had HIV at the rota. At one stage, after the Archer report, he was given age of 9. It was extremely difficult to deal with back then—and £12,800. For the same period, someone in Ireland would the devastation was compounded by the stigma. Before that, I have received a lump sum of £200,000. It is not the case had already been ill from Hepatitis B, again, from blood products that people simply want compensation; this is about the because of my haemophilia condition. By 1992, whilst I was family. He feels that a lump sum gives security; if studying at the Royal College of Music on a 4-year degree, I was something happens he can leave some money for his informed that I had also been exposed to hepatitis C, and only 5 years later, I was given another blow when I was informed that I family. He feels that if we cannot have comparability, he had been exposed to two batches of Factor VIII blood products would very much appreciate having some measures that taken from a donor who later went on to develop vCJD. I had go towards it. been treated with over 110 bottles of this vCJD-implicated material being injected directly into my bloodstream.” Dr John Pugh (Southport) (LD): The hon. Gentleman mentions compensation and the difference between the Lorraine Fullbrook: Does the hon. Gentleman agree situation in this country and that in Ireland—reference that this very debate helps to raise awareness of those has been made to that several times. However, there is people suffering from hepatitis C contracted from another huge difference: no UK Government have contaminated blood products and helps to remove the acknowledged negligence liability yet. stigma attached to hepatitis C? I am thinking of people such as a constituent of mine, who wishes not to be Rehman Chishti: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely named but is suffering from hepatitis C1a, which is the right to say that there is the question of liability, and I severest form of hepatitis. understand that it was dealt with at the judicial review, when the High Court addressed it. In Ireland, the issue Mr Slaughter: I think that this debate does do that, of fault was raised. and I am grateful for this opportunity to increase my own knowledge. However, I think that we need to move Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): The previous Government on to some very specific recommendations because, as retold the fiction several times that the compensation the mover of the motion eloquently said, this is a time scheme in Ireland rested on the finding of liability, but for action more than contemplation. That is exactly that scheme existed in Ireland before the finding of what Mr March did when he brought the judicial review liability, be it by either the Finlay or Lindsay tribunals. in April, and the matter has been just been clarified, as my hon. Friend the Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) Rehman Chishti: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman described, in relation to the mistake that the previous for that. The point that I was making about the Government Government made on the situation in Ireland. That was and clarification related to the judicial review, which the error made by that Government. That was the examined that very matter. finding of the judicial review, and it is what the Government are responding to today. The other point I wish to make has been touched on eloquently by other Members. Since 1989, this individual I shall not read from the judicial review, other than to has not been able to go on holiday, because of problems quote its final paragraphs, because they again relate to with travel and life insurance. Those matters must be Mr March. The learned judge, Mr Justice Holman, said dealt with swiftly, given the length of time left for him to that counsel for the claimant live, so that he can enjoy that time with his family. I “paid a warm but measured tribute to…Andrew March, ‘for his welcome the fact that he can be here to sit in the Public tenacity and balance in the asking of questions and soliciting of information, and not taking no for an answer when the reasons Gallery in this House to hear this debate. are not good ones.’ My impression is that that tribute is justified Finally, I urge the Minister to provide specific counselling and well judged, and that the many other people interested in this for those people who have suffered from this tragedy. I cause owe gratitude to Mr March for his tenacity or persistence.” thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, for allowing me to I say again that Mr March has done that for many speak and the Backbench Business Committee for bringing years, suffering as he did not only from his original this motion to the Floor of the House. medical condition but from the effects of the contamination. 541 Contaminated Blood and Blood 14 OCTOBER 2010 Contaminated Blood and Blood 542 Products Products [Mr Slaughter] by making regular annual payments at a higher level, although I understand that my constituent and many Taintedblood, an organisation that has done a lot of others regard that as inadequate. I regard it as inadequate. excellent work in briefing us all and preparing us for We are looking, I think, for something between the two. this debate, states: The unfortunate thing about the Government response “The Under-Secretary of State for Health”— today is that it cuts off that option. The amendment the hon. Member for Guildford (Anne Milton)— and the ministerial statement do not allow the option of considering more generous compensation in the light of “recently held a series of meetings with campaigners, the Haemophilia Lord Archer’s proposals. That is why I would have Society, the Macfarlane and Eileen Trusts, the Skipton Fund and others. In those meetings she demonstrated a new willingness by voted against the amendment and that is why I think it Government to face up to and deal with what has happened to the is wrong for the Government to have given false hope to Haemophilia Community.” sufferers and to have dashed that hope with their Those organisations must be very disappointed today announcement today. by the amendment that the Government attempted to move and by the written ministerial statement. 2.23 pm I welcome what is said in the terms of reference about Dr Phillip Lee (Bracknell) (Con): I am the only hepatitis C, as has been mentioned. I want to clarify regular practising medical doctor in this House and it is whether the Minister is offering full parity for hepatitis C somewhat surprising that no one contacted me to lobby sufferers with what AIDS sufferers experience, including on behalf of any of the issues to do with this debate. I the £12,800 per annum payments, and that that will be stand here as someone who has no idea whether I have susceptible to the review. any constituents affected by this dreadful scandal, but I do understand what it is like to have hepatitis C and to Mr Marcus Jones (Nuneaton) (Con): The constituent have HIV. On a personal level, I was once married to whom the hon. Gentleman mentioned is the son of one somebody who carried the gene for haemophilia, so I of my constituents in Nuneaton. I want to mention the have considered the idea of bringing a haemophiliac families of those affected by this disaster, because they into this world and the implications thereof. More have also had to bear a real burden in supporting importantly, I have spent weekends away with the people such as Mr March over the years. Does the hon. Haemophilia Society in the past. I have been privy to Gentleman welcome the terms of reference that the the annoyance, upset, anger and frustration with this Minister announced this morning with her statement whole affair since it started to rear its ugly head in the about supporting the families who have had to bear that late ’70s. burden? It is important when we are discussing this issue to try to separate emotion from fact. The fact of the Mr Slaughter: No, I definitely do not. I ask the matter is that before we could administer cryoprecipitate Minister to clarify—if not now, when she makes her factor VIII, the life expectancy of haemophiliacs in this speech—whether the terms of reference will allow hepatitis country was in the 20s. When we discuss compensation— C sufferers to be treated at least as HIV/AIDS sufferers perhaps this is a way of decoupling us from the are under the current scheme. I hope that she will do compensation scheme in the Republic of Ireland—we that. However, all that could have been done today. The need to discuss compensating people for loss of earnings limited amount that is offered in the review could quite and widows’ pensions, instead of compensating people easily have been announced today. If there had to be a for loss of life. It is important that we distinguish review, I should have liked it to have been along the between the two issues, instead of getting emotional. It terms of Lord Morris’s Bill, which considered all the is easy to stand up and discuss distressing cases, which remaining provisions of the Archer inquiry and said is an approach that can be applied to an array of specifically—this is the contentious part: conditions. Let us concentrate on fact, because there “When making the regulations the Secretary of State shall may be an appropriate solution. have regard to any comparable compensation schemes offered in I could speak all day on this issue, but I am conscious other countries.” of time. Questions of morality and of cost arise in The noble Lord’s Bill was a good Bill, but I would deciding appropriate compensation. To my mind, the say—this is the only criticism that I would make of my present economic difficulties that our Government are hon. Friend the Member for Coventry North West—that dealing with are not a consideration. A big wrong I think today’s motion goes a little too far. It calls occurred, and we need to deal with it irrespective of the specifically for parity with the scheme in Ireland. I do timing. The former Member for Plymouth, Devonport, not think that it gives the Government sufficient room. David Owen, who was a medically qualified person, was I would ask the Government—this is the commitment involved at the outset under a Labour Government. The that I would look for today—to widen the terms of the subsequent Conservative Government continued to miss review and to reconsider all the matters that Lord the signs and failed to implement necessary procedures Archer raised, including compensation. Even if the to make sure that the blood was not contaminated. conclusion is that parity with Ireland, where the situation I want to draw attention to the figures. I have read is different even given the judicial review, is unlikely—that only the first four chapters of the Archer report, because was suggested in the opening speeches—in the current I realised only at 12.30 pm that the matter was going to financial climate we need to look at the levels of be debated. I have noticed mistakes in the first four compensation that are being paid. chapters, so I am not encouraged by the report in I also think that the motion, while criticising previous general. The report cites a figure of £3 billion, which I Governments, could at least have acknowledged that think the Department of Health provided to Ministers, the previous Government responded to the Archer review but the figure is actually £1 billion. There is a typo—if 543 Contaminated Blood and Blood 14 OCTOBER 2010 Contaminated Blood and Blood 544 Products Products one divides the two figures, one does not get £850,000; 2.30 pm one gets £350,000. Let us talk about facts first, because Owen Smith (Pontypridd) (Lab): First, I join other we may be discussing £1 billion, not £3 billion. If one right hon. and hon. Members in thanking the Backbench relates those calculations to the price of life, we can Business Committee for recognising the importance of arrive at a compensation scheme that I can support. the case that my hon. Friend the Member for Coventry North West (Mr Robinson) and I put to it. The volume Mr Robinson: Is the hon. Gentleman saying—I heard and the quality of the contributions we have heard about this matter briefly before I came into the House—that today bear eloquent testimony to the fact that the the £3 billion figure relates to a typo and that the figure Business Committee was absolutely right to note that should be £300 million, because that needs to be clarified? this is a critical issue—one that many hon. Members on both sides of the House feel has received too little Dr Lee: Yes. If one does the division, one realises that attention in recent years from successive Governments. one figure must be wrong—off the top of my head, the I also thank my hon. Friend the Member for Coventry figure is 853 as opposed to 353. I encourage the hon. North West for picking up the baton and moving the Gentleman to look at that point. motion, which he did with great aplomb and verve, as If the figure is £1 billion, we spend £1 billion on the ever. NHS every three and a half days. We can find that Most of all, I should like to thank the victims and money. I do not know how one prices a liver, and I do their families who have been in contact with me since we not know how one prices a liver transplant that does first learned that we had succeeded in securing this not happen. I cannot put a price on that, and I challenge debate. Their kind words and support have been hugely anyone else to do so. We are talking about 4,670 people, welcome. I am delighted that so many of them managed so we can behave appropriately at last and provide the to come here today—and, indeed, yesterday—to witness appropriate compensation. the debate. That bears extraordinarily powerful testament On the financial implications, HIV widows are forced to the wrong that has been done to them and their through the Benefits Agency to seek work within weeks families. I hope that we are doing some justice to their of their partner’s death, and hepatitis C widows whose cases today by debating this issue so fully. partners died before 2004 receive no financial help at I am extremely pleased that the debate has prompted all. The implications for the haemophilia community the Government to put before the House today’s statement, are stark. I cannot say that we should trim this and that which is somewhat misaligned with the wrecking because of the comprehensive spending review; I would amendment, as my hon. Friend described it. rather we borrowed the £500 million and did the right thing. Mr Robinson: I wonder, Madam Deputy Speaker, whether you could put the point to the Minister that we Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con): Given are conducting the debate on the basis of the ministerial my hon. Friend’s medical background, will he explain statement that has been placed in the Library rather whether it is appropriate for someone with hepatitis C than one made to the House. Perhaps the Minister can to receive incapacity benefit? tell us what the basis of compensation would be if we were to implement the Archer recommendations. Is the figure £3 billion, £300 million or £1.2 billion? I have Dr Lee: I believe that it is, but, with respect, that is heard different figures. Does my hon. Friend agree that missing the point. As far as I am concerned, the Department we cannot continue the debate without more clarity of Health is culpable. This is not a party political about what we are considering? The Government have matter; it is a departmental matter. It had a series of stated that we are inviting them to spend £3 billion, but opportunities over a number of years to deal with the the figure might in fact be far less. issue, but it missed them, and surprisingly it lost a few documents in the process. That is shocking. If the Department is worried about precedent, that makes me Owen Smith: I, too, would very much like that point concerned about other conditions and treatments. Is to be addressed. I was going to ask the Minister how the there something else that we should know about? If this £3 billion figure was calculated. The Haemophilia Society is about precedent, I should like to set one: this was has today suggested that the figure has been calculated wrong and we should pay out appropriately. erroneously on the basis of a typographical error in the Archer report and that the number has been extrapolated from a false figure that Archer published regarding the Ms Abbott: The hon. Gentleman has made a very volumes that were given in Ireland. So, I, too, would important point about the £3 billion figure being a welcome the Minister’s clarification on that hugely typographical error. I wonder whether Ministers are important point. able to respond on that point now, as that would colour the rest of the debate. Mr Dorrell: I entirely agree with the hon. Gentleman and other hon. Members that the number of pounds we Dr Lee: The hon. Lady makes a fair point. I should are talking about is, to put it mildly, salient. However, is like to meet the Under-Secretary, my hon. Friend the it not also relevant that the House is being asked to sign Member for Guildford (Anne Milton), to discuss this. I up not to a specific sum but to the principle that the hope that she can give me a little time because I should compensation payable in this country should be at least like to discuss a series of issues with her. aligned with that payable in the Republic of Ireland? Whatever the number, the House should not sign up to Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. I the dubious principle that whatever is paid in Ireland am sorry, but the time limit has been reached. we will pay here. 545 Contaminated Blood and Blood 14 OCTOBER 2010 Contaminated Blood and Blood 546 Products Products Owen Smith: I understand the right hon. Gentleman’s In the last minute of my speech, I want to pay tribute argument, which is a good one intellectually, but the to some people in the Public Gallery today. The reason I rationale for the recommendation’s inclusion in the am so interested in today’s debate is that a very brave motion was, essentially, that the victims of this tragedy constituent of mine, Leigh Sugar, died earlier this year. wanted the House to debate it. The Archer report is the His family came to see me just days after his death to only substantive inquiry that we have had. It came to express their desire for him to be the last person who that conclusion on compensation, so we felt it appropriate suffers in their dying days, having not been looked after to ask that question of the House. However, I understand properly by the NHS, and having been infected through the right hon. Gentleman’s point about tying ourselves NHS treatment. to recommendations that are made in another jurisdiction. Leigh is a classic example of a person who, as a mild haemophiliac, went to hospital—he, in his teens—to be Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con): I pay tribute treated for the condition and came out with a devastating to the hon. Gentleman for pressing for the motion disease. That disease ultimately led to his death from today. I am obviously keen to support him. On the debate liver cancer. Far too many people have died before we about parity with the Republic of Ireland, the Minister have seen this House deliver justice, and it is absolutely in her statement talked about working with the UK’s critical that justice be seen to be done today. This is a devolved Administrations and with their Health Ministers. moral issue, it is a matter of conscience and of justice, Does the hon. Gentleman also support the need for and we owe it to the victims, whatever the difficulties of parity within the UK? Will he urge the Minister before the CSR, to see justice served so that they might be us and the Minister in Wales, because we are both properly recognised and properly recompensed. Welsh Members, to work on the review with the Department of Health in order to come up with at least some parity within the UK? 2.39 pm Nadine Dorries (Mid Bedfordshire) (Con): I welcome Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. It is the Government’s intention to review the Archer report, up to Members to decide on the number of times that for this simple reason: its last recommendation, which they give way to interventions, but I am concerned that to many sufferers was the most important, was to that is going to stop other Members getting in. If we are review the nursing, caring and other services that are going to have interventions, Mr Cairns, we need to available. This debate has been very much focused on make them very brief. money, but regardless of whether the figures are correct, the problems that many sufferers have had to experience Owen Smith: I agree with the hon. Gentleman’s excellent throughout their lives, from the moment of infection, point. One thing that I was slightly disappointed about have been compounded by the years in which they have in the ministerial statement was the fact that those had to deal with these problems alone. discussions clearly have not taken place. Some of the statement’s specifics are very welcome, particularly its I would like to give the House a couple of examples, point about the terms of reference and, notably, the fact because I do not think that any of us, although we that the level of payment to people with hepatitis C speak here on behalf of our constituents, can fully might be equalised. understand some of the problems that these people have had to deal with. I would like to speak on behalf of Ms Abbott: On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. a constituent of my hon. Friend the Member for North You will be aware that “Mr Secretary Lansley” and East Bedfordshire (Alistair Burt) and a constituent of “Anne Milton” tabled an amendment that is on the my own, and cite some of the things that they have told Order Paper and includes the figure “£3 billion”. Some us. What they said to us is powerful, and we must Opposition Members feel that this debate cannot go recognise the bravery that it takes for people to go and forward until we have some clarification of its accuracy. sit in front of their MP and talk about the problems that they experience, which is not an easy thing to do. Mr Deputy Speaker: A point of order takes up valuable Some of those constituents are here today. time, too. I recognise that you wanted to make it, but My constituent was infected with HIV from you will have the opportunity to put the case a little contaminated blood at the age of 12, when he was told: later. What we ought to try to do is respect all Members. “This is what you now have. Youmust never tell anybody I want to try to get in all those Members who are here; I at all, ever. You must never tell friends in school, do not want disappoint them. because if you do you will be bullied and hounded out of your school, and we will be hounded out of our Owen Smith: Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I now home and have to move away.” It is enough to have have very little time left, so I shall speak a little faster, if suffered with haemophilia, but then, at the age of 12, Imay. they are told not only that they have a socially unacceptable It is absolutely critical that the Minister makes it very disease, as it was at that time, but, at an age when they clear in her response that she is talking about equalising fully understand, that they are soon going to die from it. the payment to people with hepatitis C with the previous He got that message more powerfully than by words payments to victims of HIV. It is also important that alone. As a haemophiliac before his diagnosis of HIV, she consider the specificity of the recommendations, he was never allowed to have a bike of his own, so he including the terms of reference. Victims’ access to was always asking to hitch a ride on somebody else’s. nursing care and to the NHS ought to be looked at The Christmas after his diagnosis, his Christmas present differentially. They were infected by the NHS, in effect, was a bike of his own. He knew, from the statements by and therefore they ought to be treated differently when his parents and the look in his father’s eyes, that it did looked after by the NHS. not matter any more—that he may as well have his own 547 Contaminated Blood and Blood 14 OCTOBER 2010 Contaminated Blood and Blood 548 Products Products bike, because at that point in the ’80s nobody knew Like many Members, I was motivated to speak in the whether he had a month, a year or years to live. For a debate by a number of constituents who have haemophilia child to have had to live with being a social pariah, and and have contacted me with their stories, which I found to have had to keep a secret that they know they will die both moving and inspiring. One e-mail particularly from, brings with it psychological problems that we struck a chord with me, and I spoke to the man who cannot even begin to imagine. Their childhood is taken wrote it on the phone this morning. Wayne Gambin is away and they have to live with that secret all their life. 35 years old and has a young family, and he has I welcome the report, because these people need haemophilia. He was given hepatitis C through a bad counselling. They need to be able to know that they can blood transfusion. I read about how he gets depressed a speak about the vitally important conditions that they lot of the time just thinking about death, which is in the suffer from, and how to deal with them. To use the forefront of his mind most of the time. He wonders words of one of our constituents, he felt that he had whether the disease could kick in, causing liver failure been born to bleed but did not realise he would have to and eventually death. pay the death penalty for it, and every day he feels Over the years, Wayne has tried two different ungrateful to be alive. The figures may be wrong or experimental drug combinations, but they have had no right, but other issues are just as important as the effect on the disease. While on the trials he suffered a lot financial compensation that some of the people who of side effects, such as depression and anger. During have been infected are looking for. one trial three years ago, he lost his job and his house. There was a huge stigma surrounding HIV in the He has a young family and cannot get life insurance ’80s. We know in this place, and many other people because of the excessive charges, even though he contracted know now, that there are only two ways to catch HIV—via the disease through no fault of his own. He worries sexual intercourse or contaminated blood. Perhaps it is about dying and leaving his family destitute. To me, that time for us to start doing our bit to let people know that is a scandal in itself. that stigma should not be there any more and that these Another constituent who also wrote to me is in his people should not be afraid to talk about what they mid-40s and has three children, and was infected with have suffered. hepatitis C in the ’80s following an accident that required surgery. He discovered he had the disease shortly before Mr Robinson: On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. his 40th birthday and his health deteriorated dramatically, We are conducting a Back-Bench debate that is being culminating in a liver transplant a year ago. His children coloured by a figure in an amendment that the Government now face the prospect of not having their father around have tabled, which has not been selected. It suggests in future. He has lost everything, even though he has that £3 billion would be the cost of what my motion worked his entire life. proposes. If the exact figure is in the order of 1% of I know that when we read stories such as that, it is that, or £300 million, as I think the hon. Member for easy to be carried away with the emotion of it all, but Bracknell (Dr Lee), a medical doctor, suggested—[HON. we can deal only in fact. Throughout the ’70s and the MEMBERS: “No, £1 billion.”] Does it come to £1 billion? first half the ’80s, many in the UK who suffered from I think that ought to be clarified before we go further in haemophilia were treated with blood and blood products the debate. that carried what came to be known as hepatitis C. As has been said, some 4,670 patients became infected. Mr Deputy Speaker: In fairness, the Minister is going Between 1983 and the early 1990s, some 1,200 patients to speak and there will be an opportunity to intervene were infected with HIV through blood products. We on her. I am sure she will want to point out the figure at know that because Lord Archer held an independent that stage. What I want to do is get on with the debate public inquiry. until she comes to speak, and then I am sure Members The Macfarlane Trust was established in 1987 to in all parts of the House will be able to intervene. provide emergency funding for haemophilia patients infected with HIV, most of whom were not expected to Anne Milton indicated assent. live more than five years. Victims, many of whom had a good standard of living beforehand, were required to Mr Deputy Speaker: I am getting the nod from the go cap in hand for discretionary relief. Monthly payments Minister that that will be dealt with in due course. are now dispensed. The Skipton Fund was founded in 2003 following the publication of the Ross report. Those infected with hepatitis C can claim a lump sum of 2.45 pm £20,000, and a further £25,000 is paid to those who can Chris Evans (Islwyn) (Lab/Co-op): I have been sitting establish that their hepatitis C led to severe liver disease. here waiting to speak for an hour or two. Those affected I have no doubt that those were welcome developments, by the tragedy of contaminated blood and blood products but like many other Members I believe that more needs have been waiting for justice for more than 25 years. to be done. As many have mentioned, Lord Archer’s I do not have to tell anyone that living with haemophilia conclusion, which has caused some controversy, was is hard. My own cousin was affected by the condition, that payments should be at least equivalent to those and when I think of him now I always think of him with payable under the Irish scheme, which is far more a smile on his face. He was always cheerful. As a child, I generous than ours. I hope that the Irish made that was always aware that he had haemophilia, although I settlement because caring for the victims of the disaster did not understand what the condition meant. Having was morally the right thing to do. done some background reading and spoken to people, I I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, can say this about him now: my admiration for him, my Walton (Steve Rotheram) that the annual payments aunt and my uncle has only grown. awarded to all patients infected with hepatitis C and 549 Contaminated Blood and Blood 14 OCTOBER 2010 Contaminated Blood and Blood 550 Products Products [Chris Evans] that. Safeguards that should have been implemented in both the UK and the US were not. Indeed, it appears HIV through contaminated blood are too low. Considering that the UK was slow to act on minimising the chances the damage done to the lives of those infected and their of haemophiliacs contracting HIV. Clearly, mistakes families, they should be increased. Yes, there needs to be were made, and they must be recognised. some reconciliation, and I welcome the Government’s More important than embarking on a witch hunt is move to review the recommendations of the Archer deciding where we go from here. How can we achieve report, but I hope that they will go further and offer an insurance for sufferers and support those who need it apology, which costs absolutely nothing. most? Infection from tainted blood was indiscriminate. One of my constituents wrote to me to say that it is Youngand old, haemophiliacs and those who underwent time to bring about an end to this fight and to allow those operations were not spared. Nobody was spared. who remain to live out the rest of their lives with some The situation affects not only male haemophiliacs; peace of mind. I wholeheartedly agree with him. some female cases have been reported. It is very much a matter of regret that the issue of adequate compensation 2.50 pm was not tackled some time ago. I suspect that the sheer Gareth Johnson (Dartford) (Con): Unlike my hon. sums of money are part of the reason why the cause was Friend the Member for Bracknell (Dr Lee), I do not not picked up by the previous Government. I look to profess to have any high degree of expertise. I was this Government to do what they can to make the approached by a couple of my constituents, who hit me situation for sufferers and their families easier. with what can be described only as a moral sledgehammer. They movingly recounted profound stories of their youth Matthew Hancock (West Suffolk) (Con): Like me, my and their lost childhoods, which others have mentioned, hon. Friend has constituents who are affected by this and of their inability to form full relationships with issue. Does he agree that although it is important to get loved ones. Some victims have had to keep their condition the numbers and the money right, there is an important secret owing to a fear of being shunned by people who principle at stake too? From this debate, it would appear have a naive attitude towards HIV. The heartbreaking that the House wholeheartedly supports that principle. accounts are seemingly endless. Very often, sufferers get into the habit of not telling friends and even relatives, Gareth Johnson: I agree with my hon. Friend, who and now find it impossible to divulge the truth. Many makes a good point. A range of principles is at issue victims were children. Some never made it to adulthood. and we need to ensure that people who are affected by this tragedy are properly looked after as best the We fight and argue in this Chamber over a range of Government can achieve. We live in times of austerity, issues, but we would struggle to find a more poignant and there is a limit on what the Government can do, but debate than this. The contracting of HIV through blood it is incumbent on them to do all that they reasonably transfusions is one of the most profound, disturbing and practically can to help sufferers. and dreadful episodes in 20th century health treatment. According to my calculations, on average, one person a week has died as a result of being infected with HIV. 2.55 pm Those who survive do so only because of a cocktail of Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab): It is always a drugs that keeps them hanging on to life. That treatment pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Dartford (Gareth has been described as being on low-dose chemotherapy Johnson). for the rest of one’s life. My hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, West An additional difficulty is that victims must cope Derby (Stephen Twigg) paid tribute to the campaigners with their inability to obtain life insurance—Opposition by wearing a black tie. I am in rather a bright outfit for Members have mentioned that—and they also have this occasion because of my own tribute to the breast difficulty with travel insurance and medicals. I therefore cancer care campaign. welcome the terms of reference for the review. Surely I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Coventry some help can be offered to the remaining survivors. I North West (Mr Robinson) on initiating this debate and use the term “survivor” deliberately, because that is I support his motion. In the words of Lord Winston, exactly what the remaining sufferers are. this is the “worst treatment disaster” in the history of A further tragedy is the fact that some sufferers were the UK. Not only is it a human tragedy, but it is grossly not told of their condition even when it was known by unjust. My constituent Valerie Moule is widowed because, others, leading to the infection of partners. On other through no fault of her own or of her husband, the occasions, it was felt unnecessary to engage with sufferers blood that he was given as a haemophiliac was as they were not expected to live very long anyway. The contaminated by HIV. Ivan Moule was one of the first treatment that is available today for HIV sufferers was people to die from contaminated blood, in 1989. This is not envisaged in the 1980s, so it was believed that an unimaginable injustice. Ivan Moule innocently received victims had a life expectancy of about five years. Thankfully, blood as a treatment without knowing that it was killing that has not been the case in many instances. him. Understandably, some who were told that they had only Injustice in any part of life has to be corrected and five years to live went out and spent their financial someone has to take responsibility when things go award pretty quickly, and enjoyed life to the full without wrong— considering investing for the future. Many such victims have consequently been left financially short. Mr Tom Clarke: My hon. Friend has outlined some We are familiar with the root cause of the infection: of the big issues that we are debating. Does she agree blood was imported for transfusion when the UK was that one of the most unacceptable aspects of this situation not self-sufficient. Perhaps we need to look further into is how widows have been treated? 551 Contaminated Blood and Blood 14 OCTOBER 2010 Contaminated Blood and Blood 552 Products Products Valerie Vaz: I agree with my right hon. Friend, and when Ros has received two rounds of treatment for her I was contacted by Mrs Moule she very calmly and quietly hepatitis C, but those, of course, are also traumatic. Six encouraged me to take part in this debate. to 12 months of antiviral therapy can leave a patient When things go wrong, someone has to take unable to work: Ros was unable to earn a living for up responsibility, and that is the cornerstone of a civilised to two years after both rounds of treatment. In the society. Despite their bereavement and illnesses, the future she faces a liver transplant, cirrhosis or, worse determined campaigners, who are sitting in the Public still, cancer of the liver, as all sufferers of hepatitis C do. Gallery wearing their armbands, established an independent She is a vibrant young woman and would otherwise inquiry paid for by private means. Not only do they have faced a life that was admittedly severely have truth on their side, but—since April 2010—they inconvenienced—but still only inconvenienced—by her have had the law on their side. In the Republic of bleeding disorder. However, because she received Ireland, a full financial scheme is in place, with a contaminated blood products, arguably at a time when compensation scheme based on civil law principles, but those providing them knew there was a risk of infection, that is not mirrored in this country. she is severely disadvantaged. Haemophiliacs began dying of AIDS in the early Modern medicine has resulted in new types of 1980s. Some 2,000 people have already died having been manufactured blood products, reducing the risk to most infected by HIV. In my view, the Archer inquiry made patients. However, for Ros this salvation is not available. significant recommendations that should all be She suffers from a very rare disorder—type 3 von implemented. It was cost-effective at the time to buy Willebrands—which means that she must receive real blood from other countries that was unscreened and, if blood products that still come from America and overseas. we are not careful, that could happen again if commercial, So from between three times a week to up to twice a cost-cutting considerations are brought into an area day, Ros injects herself with blood products that may where they do not belong. As the Archer report says, carry an as yet undiscovered infection. Every time she commercial priorities should never override the interests feels exhausted or unwell, she will ask herself if she has of public health. This is a matter of public importance infected herself with another illness. What is truly and public interest. remarkable about Ros’s story is that she is clear of HIV, which is very welcome news. Proper financial relief should be paid to those who were infected. As a nation, we should apologise to those The fact that we are having this debate is a significant families who have suffered. We also need a commitment leap forward, and I congratulate the hon. Member for that blood will be screened and that blood from imported Pontypridd (Owen Smith) on his efforts to move this or unknown sources will not be used. We owe that to incredibly important issue forward, and the hon. Member those who have died, like Ivan Moule, and to the living for Coventry North West (Mr Robinson) on taking up who cared for them, like Valerie Moule. I urge hon. the banner. That it has taken so long for us to debate the Members to do the right thing and support the motion. matter, however, is a cause for concern, especially given the 4,670 people infected by hepatitis C and the 1,200 or so infected by HIV—infections that have resulted in 3pm nearly 1,800 deaths. Mark Garnier (Wyre Forest) (Con): It is a great At the core of this debate are the findings and pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Walsall South recommendations of the Archer review. To my mind, (Valerie Vaz). the eight recommendations are broadly reasonable, and I feel moved to speak today because this is an issue I am amazed that some, such as free prescriptions, were that shows how we as a society can show compassion not introduced a long time ago. However, I am grateful for our fellow citizens and take responsibility for past to the Minister for making a statement saying that that mistakes. I have been well aware of the general topic of will be reviewed. Of course, however, there is always a people suffering from contaminated blood transfusions sticking point—in this case, the level of compensation, for some time, but I did not become aware of either the which has now been even more confused by the amount full scale or the injustices of the problem until I met Ros of money that we are now discussing. Cooper, a constituent of mine, to whom I am incredibly Some payments have already been made. In 2004 grateful. She speaks with passion about this subject, payments of £20,000, rising to £25,000 for more advanced and is an incredibly strong advocate for her fellow stages of illnesses through hepatitis C, were made through sufferers. She is relentless in her efforts to get her point the Skipton Fund. Other payments of a similar initial across. sum, rising to £60,000 on a needs assessment basis, plus Ros’s story is not untypical. Diagnosed with a severe ongoing payments, have been made through the bleeding disorder at just six months, she has received MacFarlane Trust. However, those two systems illustrate blood products all her life. She receives them from as that some form of uniformity needs to be established. If infrequently as three times a week to as often as twice a an individual’s life is blighted, irrespective of what is day. By the age of 14 she was able to inject herself with causing the blight, it is important to have uniformity of blood products. This is a woman who has had to grow payout. I am very supportive of the Hepatitis C Trust’s up under the permanent threat of severe bleeding. Of recommendations that the Skipton Fund’s payout should course she has received treatment from the NHS, but as be increased to the levels paid by the MacFarlane Trust. a direct result of that treatment she contracted hepatitis I support the motion in full, but—I say this with a C—something she discovered only by hearsay, which heavy heart—with one exception. When we talk about seems to be a recurrent theme in this debate. Not only implementing the Archer report despite the intense was she not given counselling to help her cope with that financial pressure on the public purse, I am mindful traumatic news, but she also found out by hearsay that that in just six days’ time my right hon. Friend the she might have been exposed to CJD. Chancellor of the Exchequer will deliver a statement 553 Contaminated Blood and Blood 14 OCTOBER 2010 Contaminated Blood and Blood 554 Products Products [Mark Garnier] society, in the media and in politics, but what we are talking about is a true scandal, and we have to call a that could make life-changing cuts to public expenditure. halt to it now. I cast an eye towards my many, many constituents, all of In the past, we had Governments giving false excuses whom are extremely anxious about the comprehensive and making false comparisons with the Irish scheme, spending review, and I must act in the interests of all of with false references to the issue of liability and so on. them. It is vital that the victims of this tragedy should Now that has been nailed. However, after the false be allowed to live their lives as best they can— contrasts of the past, we cannot now have false comparisons to describe the relative or comparative costs of the Penny Mordaunt: My hon. Friend has mentioned the schemes. Clearly we need proper differentiation between comprehensive spending review, but we should not forget the wider package that was available in the south of that the health budget is ring-fenced and will be increased. Ireland, to take account of the fact that not everybody We have also heard mention of the insurance industry had health cover, prescription cover, medical card cover and the companies that supplied blood products. I hope or whatever. I accept that that has to be done properly if that he will join me in urging all Members to come we are to achieve true parity. However, we cannot turn forward with ideas to ensure the maximum compensation round and offer the victims stone for bread, and say pot, whether that comes from public funds or, for that now that we have finally recognised the problem example, from the £1 billion that exists in the insurance and are addressing it, our excuse for not giving them industry in orphan accounts. All Members should be what justice demands is the financial exigencies of the contributing to that debate. Exchequer. Mark Garnier: I welcome that intervention. It is If justice says that people are due compensation, and incumbent on us all to work with Health Ministers to if we all say that this is our democratic will, then that is ensure that we find as much money as we can to help what should happen. If that puts a strain on the Exchequer the victims. However, we have to be careful to ensure and the rest of us, it is a strain that we have to bear, that compensation is not paid at the potential expense because we owe it to those who have suffered as they of many other special interest groups that need and should not have suffered, and who have endured and deserve compensation and funding. struggled for so long, with so many people dying in the I am pleased that the Minister has said that the issue effort. will be resolved, in one way or another, by the end of this year. I look forward to working with Members who Several hon. Members rose— have been affected by the contaminated blood scandal to ensure that the Minister comes up with a satisfactory Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. We response. have nine speakers to fit in, and I intend to call the Front-Bench speakers at 3.40 pm, which gives us 30 minutes. 3.6 pm I ask for as much discipline as possible, as I want to Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): Unlike some other ensure that everyone who wants to speak can be called. hon. Members, I do not have permission to name any constituent who suffers from this predicament. However, 3.10 pm I do hear from people who are affected, as well as from those in other constituencies in Northern Ireland, about Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con): I should like exactly the same problems, tensions and sad experiences to add my congratulations to the Backbench Business that other hon. Members have so articulately reflected on. Committee on securing this debate, and to thank the Many hon. Members in this debate have emphasised hon. Members for Coventry North West (Mr Robinson) the importance of ensuring parity between sufferers and for Foyle (Mark Durkan) for their contributions. I from hepatitis C and sufferers from HIV,and the principle should also like to thank my hon. Friend the Member seems to be shared universally across the House. My for Bracknell (Dr Lee), who has just left the Chamber, problem, in a border constituency in Northern Ireland, for his thoughtful, insightful and revealing speech. I is that I want to see parity between my constituents in also want to thank all the victims of this scandal and Foyle and those in the next-door constituency of Donegal their loved ones who are up in the Public Gallery. Many North East, who benefit from the Irish Government’s of you have been here since 10.30 this morning, as I compensation scheme. That scheme had its roots in the have. Thank you for your patience, and I hope that in recognition in 1995, by the then Irish Government—the about an hour’s time, you will feel that your time here rainbow coalition of John Bruton and Dick Spring—that has been worth while. led to a tribunal being set up in 1996, which was making Debates such as these are what I was elected for. I am significant payments long before the subsequent findings passionate about this issue, and I am determined that of liability by the Lindsay or Finlay tribunals, or by the we should stop dragging our heels and begin the process hepatitis C tribunal in 2002. of closure in this shocking scandal. As most of us here Not only have we had the scandal of the health know, the scandal was caused by the importing of mistreatment disaster, which created this plight for so Factor VIII from the United States, where blood was many people; there has also been the scandal of the extracted from prisoners for money by commercial failure of the political process to deal with it. There is companies, and not properly sterilised or treated before no point in our talking about this or that Government; being used in British hospitals for the treatment of the fact is that, collectively, the political process has haemophiliacs. failed to discharge its responsibilities properly, as compared Over the years Governments of the day had several with what a nearby political process has been able to chances to act, but they missed every time. Again and deliver. The word “scandal” is much overworked in this again the victims of this scandal have been betrayed. 555 Contaminated Blood and Blood 14 OCTOBER 2010 Contaminated Blood and Blood 556 Products Products Already 1,800 of the 4,800 British haemophiliacs affected I would like to pay tribute to all the tireless campaigners have died. Of the 1,243 people who contracted HIV, from the affected community for their perseverance and only 345 are still alive today. It is the human tragedies tenacity over many years. I congratulate them, and that are the feature of this shocking scandal. everyone involved on securing this historic debate on I have had a general awareness of the scandal for only the Floor of the House. Hon. Members across the a few years. It was only when I met an amazing man political spectrum have also been instrumental in keeping from Lindley in the north of my constituency that it up the fight. Among them was my predecessor as East really hit me, and I have to admit that I have been Hampshire’s MP, Michael Mates, for whom this was a emotionally drawn into the issue. Mr C—he wishes to special cause. remain anonymous—was dignified and polite. He told Like most others, I cannot begin to imagine the me that as a 12-year-old haemophiliac, he was injected anguish and fury of the thousands of patients infected with dirty blood products. He was injected with HIV by contaminated blood. Whether we call it accident, and hepatitis C. He is still alive, thanks to his positive negligence or anything else, these people came to receive outlook and with the help of a cocktail of drugs. He has treatment through our national health service—and no anger or bitterness, just a desire to get some fairness, were poisoned. For some it has been a death sentence; mainly for his family. It is also worth remembering that for others a long lingering life sentence. many of the victims were already suffering from other There are some things in this morning’s written statement illnesses, or had suffered an accident, before they were that are to be welcomed, including the Minister’s infected by the contaminated blood products. commitment to look afresh at insurance, prescription For too many decades this issue has been swept under charges, and access to care services and nursing. Many the carpet. I came into Parliament to do the right thing, hon. Members have spoken about compensation, which and to stand up for those who have been wronged. is, of course, fundamental. It has become clear through Many of those people are up in the Gallery now. I am this debate—for the reasons expounded by the hon. not going to get bogged down by the intricacies of the Member for Hammersmith (Mr Slaughter) and my Archer report, or by the financial commitments involved. right hon. Friend the Member for Charnwood I know, as many of us do, that there is little money left, (Mr Dorrell)—that today’s motion, as currently worded, which just adds to my indignation that this matter was is not the best basis on which to move forward. We all not cleared up in better times. I shall, however, praise look to the Minister to move forward towards a just my Government for their action over the previous 13 days, settlement that will allow those people and their families, in which they have done a lot more than was done in the who have suffered so much, to reach some sort of previous 13 years. I am immensely proud of what has closure. happened in the past 24 hours, including the movement For about the next 30 seconds I want to focus on a by the Minister. I also welcome a number of the different aspect—apology. One of the worst aspects of recommendations in the ministerial statement, which I this whole sad affair is that so many, including those saw this morning. children from Treloar, died without anybody saying, I am now going to put down my notes. I said that I “We’re sorry.” That makes me very uncomfortable. It is had been emotionally drawn into this issue, and I now not about assigning blame. There could be—indeed, want to address the many people up in the Gallery and there has been—long debate over the technicalities of look them in the eye. I came into this Chamber as a liability or otherwise, who knew what and when, how Member of Parliament to do the right thing. For too quickly things could have changed and so forth. Regardless long, you and your families have suffered. You have of those specifics, surely the victims of this disaster are been the victims of this scandal, and I hope that I, and owed the dignity of a proper apology. I have read the other Members, can do the right thing. I shall therefore expressions of sympathy, but I do not think they quite support the motion later. go far enough. The events predate most current Members of the House, and I am not suggesting that a Minister should come to the Dispatch Box to take, or indeed 3.14 pm assign, blame. I do think, however, that it is not too much to ask to give the victims the dignity of hearing a Damian Hinds (East Hampshire) (Con): I am conscious Minister of the Crown come to the Floor of this House that there are many hon. Members still wishing to and say, “Yes, we are truly sorry.” speak, so I shall be brief. As the hon. Member for Coventry North West (Mr Robinson) said, it is almost inevitable, given the number of people involved in this 3.17 pm scandal, that there will be someone in every constituency Caroline Dinenage (Gosport) (Con):I echo others this who has been affected. The issue has especial significance afternoon in saying how much I appreciate the opportunity in my constituency, because it is home to the outstanding to participate in this debate—a debate should that have Lord Mayor Treloar college, where many of the victims happened many years ago. I also reiterate the tributes to were students in the 1970s and 1980s. There were many the victims and their families, some of whom are watching haemophiliacs at the college because it had an excellent our debate. The tragedy of contaminated blood is in-house haemophilia centre. My constituent Mr Adrian undoubtedly one of the biggest medical disasters in the Goodyear was one of those who was infected by history of the NHS. It is important to establish how this contaminated blood and blood products. He wrote to medical catastrophe was allowed to happen, and to me to say: protect those whose lives were devastated as a result. “We’ve now lost so many of our friends from the Treloar I recently met a delegation of people who had suffered days—in fact, we stopped counting at 40—many of whom were through the Equitable Life disaster. Although I have children, teenagers or young adults at the time.” every sympathy with their plight, today’s debate puts Those words will stay with me. that matter into perspective because we are talking not 557 Contaminated Blood and Blood 14 OCTOBER 2010 Contaminated Blood and Blood 558 Products Products [Caroline Dinenage] matter what the outcome today. We as parliamentarians should feel humbled by their bravery and take up the about the loss of life savings, but about the loss of life fight on their behalf. itself, loss of livelihood and of the chance to grow old, Martin Luther King once said: and losing the chance to become a parent and see one’s “when you are forever fighting a degenerating sense of ‘nobodiness’— children grow up. then you will understand why we find it difficult to wait.” It seems wholly appropriate that people whose lives That is how this little community goes on: waiting and have been devastated by this disaster should be fairly dying, dying and waiting. compensated. After today’s discussions about how much Whatever happens as a result of the vote today, we it will cost, I very much look forward to hearing the must ultimately put an end to this. No amount of Minister speak later about whether this is affordable. I money can bring back those who have suffered and do not believe, however, that the relatives are purely died—their dead will remain dead, their losses will after money. As George Santayana said: remain lost—but we can help them to shed the burden “Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to of injustice and regain financial security. My hope is repeat it.” that my constituent will one day again be able to wake That explains why this debate is so important, as it up in the morning knowing that each day is a day to be ensures that the tragedy will not be forgotten and, with loved, a day to be lived, and not a day to be fought. the help of Lord Archer’s recommendations, that it will not be repeated. 3.22 pm Andrea Leadsom (South Northamptonshire) (Con): One of those affected was from my Gosport One of the first principles of any health care is “first do constituency—a haemophiliac who had just a 10-day no harm”. I think it was Florence Nightingale who said window of NHS treatment for his condition, but those that. I pay tribute to all hon. Members who have shown 10 days proved to be his death sentence, as he was today how much we care about what has happened. I infected with both HIV and hepatitis C. This man echo the words of the many who have said that we owe a suffered in every way as a result of his infection. He lost huge apology, as parliamentarians, on behalf of the the chance to father children and to further his career; Department of Health, which, inadvertently or otherwise, he suffered pain, humiliation, poverty, prejudice and, has caused so much tragedy to so many people who ultimately, death. His family lived a lie to avoid the have suffered. stigma of HIV, and were therefore cut off from the possibility of much-needed support from friends and I also pay tribute to my constituent Stuart, who I am neighbours. His stepdaughter talks of a “lost childhood”. very glad to see is well enough to be here. He first came Such was, and in many cases still is, the fear and to my surgery a couple of months ago with the prejudice in relation to HIV that sufferers whom I have heartbreaking story of his own situation as a haemophiliac met who were open about their illnesses had their infected with hepatitis C and HIV, and now suffering homes daubed with red paint and their children hounded from advanced liver disease. He has become used to from their schools. seeing friends and family dying; he has become used to the fact that he often cannot afford to go to their That man’s family suffered financial hardship. As he funerals; and he has become used to popping around to was unable to obtain life assurance, his widow was left someone’s house for a drink only to find two weeks later not only a single mother but with a mortgage to pay. He that that person has died from, for instance, a brain died on Christmas Eve 1998 at the age of just 40. He tumour or liver cancer. It is hard to imagine. died of a life-threatening condition and three terminal diseases. He died struggling not just against his illness I warmly welcome the ministerial statement. I spoke but against huge financial worries and fear for the to my hon. Friend the Minister specifically about my future of his family, and under the oppressive burden of constituents, and I can assure Members on both sides of injustice. the House that she is as genuinely sad and sorry about the situation as any of us here. I urged her, on behalf of Now, 12 years later, his widow is still fighting against my constituents, to do three things. First, I urged her to that injustice. She talks of her fight against the sense do whatever she could to ensure that they achieve that somehow the life of this man, her husband, did not closure. This has gone on for so long. We may not be count, because no Government seemed to care. Her able to give these people everything that they want, but simple desire is not to wake up every morning of her life let us at least put them in a position that will enable and think of that. She talks of the frustrating myths them to say, “We have got enough: we can take off our that prevail. One is that victims were compensated. The campaigning boots and start to enjoy what time is left truth is that the Skipton Fund drew a line in the to us and to our families.” Secondly, I urged her to try sand—an arbitrary date in 2003 after which relatives of to give time to all who want to speak to her during the people who died were given small ex gratia payments. review period between now and Christmas, so that they My constituent died in 1998. His widow was told that can tell her their stories, put their side of case and ask her husband had died five years too early; to her mind her to help them. Thirdly, I urged her to try to ensure he had died 45 years too early. that every possible step was taken to prevent anything Today in the House we have a fantastic opportunity. like this from ever happening again. This was not a The contaminated blood tragedy has finally been granted deliberate action on anyone’s part. It was, however, a platform, and we as elected Members have a responsibility caused by a lack of joined-up thinking and a failure to in the coming months to ensure that we fight for a just take opportunities as they arose. outcome for the tainted blood community. That tiny Like all Members, my heart truly goes out to those community of sick, bereaved and dying people, many of affected, but I feel confident that my hon. Friend the whom are living in poverty, will go on fighting no Minister will take every opportunity to put right the wrongs 559 Contaminated Blood and Blood 14 OCTOBER 2010 Contaminated Blood and Blood 560 Products Products of past generations. It is a great shame that the last The cost of matching the sums we have given to the Government did not do that when our economic situation HIV folk in payments to the hepatitis C folk is 3,500 people was better and that it is therefore left to us to try to sort multiplied by £12,800 a year. That comes to £40 million this problem out at a time of great economic hardship. I a year. That is the cost of implementing Archer in the assure the Minister that she has my support in her same way for the hepatitis C people as for the HIV efforts to put this right. people. I would be extremely interested to hear what my Front-Bench colleague has to say about that, and I 3.25 pm would like it to be addressed in the review. How can we reconcile that sum of £40 million a year that will not be Mr Mark Spencer (Sherwood) (Con): I will be as for ever—unfortunately the number of these people is brief as possible. I have heard the stories of my own declining—with the sum of £3 billion? constituents and I have also listened to many other Finally, let me say that this is not just about money. similarly tragic stories, and that shows the magnitude of Had it been just about money, we would have fixed the this problem throughout the country. I welcome the fact problem 10 years ago when more money was going into that Opposition Members recognise that this has been the national health service than it was able to spend. an issue for successive Governments, and that they This is about principle, and we have the chance to sort regret that it was not tackled in the previous 13 years it out. and we are therefore now left in the position of needing to try to solve this enormous problem. I also regret that the motion refers to a comparison with Ireland. That country does give eight to 10 times I also want to thank the Front-Bench team for having more money than we have been able to find, but other taken this matter so seriously. It has looked into it and, countries come in between ours and Ireland on that list. for the first time, has committed to taking action. We We should not be constrained to signing up to a one-country now have a timetable in place, and we will know the approach, but we have to get this fixed. direction we are going in by Christmas. That is an enormous step forward. I am grateful that we now at least have a plan and a direction, and I hope we can 3.30 pm achieve the right outcome. Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con): Thank you for allowing me to speak in this historic debate, 3.27 pm Mr Deputy Speaker. Like so many of my colleagues, this issue has been brought to my attention by the David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con): I thank my impact it has had on the life of a constituent—in my hon. Friend the Member for Sherwood (Mr Spencer) case, the constituent is Colette Wintle. for being brief and thereby letting me contribute to the Colette was born in 1959 and was diagnosed with debate, and I shall be brief as well. Like many others, I haemophilia in 1962. When she went to have her tonsils welcome the movement from the Minister over the past out in 1976, she was given American blood products couple of days. which first caused her infection with hepatitis. In 1982, I want to make three points. I would like the Minister at a hospital in Kent, she was given factor VIII concentrate, to comment on them in her concluding remarks, and I which infected her with hepatitis C. In 1985, at a hospital would certainly welcome their being addressed in her in London, she was once again given treatment with review. The first is the difference between how this blood products, which made her very ill with hepatitis C, problem has been dealt with in this country and other although mercifully she did not contract HIV.Subsequently, countries. A lot has been said about Ireland, but Ireland she has been so weak with illness that she had to stop is not the only country in question: there is also Japan, work at the age of 38. She has contracted cirrhosis of Canada and Italy. It has been said that past Governments the liver and lives in fear of developing liver cancer in have failed to address the problem and that is true, but it her damaged liver. is only Governments of our country who have failed. I As we all know, it is not possible for doctors to undo would like to know where our response to the problem the damage to Colette’s health and it is not possible for will rank in comparison with that of other countries, her ever to be adequately compensated for the harm and I hope we will finish at least halfway up the international that was done to her by the infected blood products. league table. The question is what we should do now, as a society, to Secondly, I want to draw attention to the distinction compensate people such as Colette and her family. We we have persistently drawn between hepatitis C sufferers have heard about the Skipton Fund, and I think that and HIV sufferers. When I first looked into this issue, I everyone in this debate acknowledges that the payments simply did not understand that, time and again, whenever of a maximum of £45,000 are not adequate to compensate a compensation payment was made we drew that someone for that treatment. distinction. People with hepatitis C are unable to work We have also talked a lot about different numbers, in the same way as those with HIV, and people with and I wish to help the House. As 4,672 people have been hepatitis C are also dying prematurely in the same way. infected over the years, a payment of £1 million to each We really have to stop drawing that distinction. It has of them would involve £4.672 billion. A payment of even been drawn latterly in respect of the Archer report. £100,000 to every sufferer would involve £467.2 million—I The annual payment now being made to HIV sufferers believe I have those figures right. That puts the £3 billion is, I think, £12,800, whereas hepatitis C sufferers, who cost into context; it would work out to be £642,000 per have about the same amount of discomfort, have merely individual. But Colette has not been able to work since got a review in five years’ time. That is not right. she was 38 and has had to pay for her NHS prescriptions. My third point is about money, about which a number She looks ahead to the future, but her general practitioner of interesting comments have been made, in particular is unable to assure her that she will have access to by my hon. Friend the Member for Bracknell (Dr Lee). specialist nursing at home if her condition worsens. 561 Contaminated Blood and Blood 14 OCTOBER 2010 Contaminated Blood and Blood 562 Products Products [Harriett Baldwin] party as the vehicle from which to express my frustration. There is a useful quotation in the briefing documentation I welcome what the Minister said in her statement with which we were provided, which I want to read as and the fact that she will look urgently at a number of quickly as I can, about the Skipton fund. It is from the issues. However, will she clarify whether the compensation Department of Health and says: that will be recommended by the review will reflect the “The announcement of a scheme on 29 August 2003 occurred length of time that individuals have had to suffer and after the Secretary of State had revisited this issue…The difficult been unable to work because of the illness? Will the decision not to extend the scheme to people who had died before review also examine something that is being debated a this date meant that it became an unavoidable cut-off point. We lot with the Department for Work and Pensions: what realise that the circumstances are not ideal, but have attempted to happens when an individual is being assessed for their provide a pragmatic solution.” ability to work? Can we agree in this House today that it I have seen a fair amount of civil-service speak in my would be good if we exempted all these individuals—the time, but that is as near as I have come to finding one 2,700 surviving patients—from any further assessment that admits, “This is an awful decision. We know that it of their capacity to work? is an awful decision, but tough. You will have to live No money could ever compensate these victims for with it.” what has happened. Their health can never be repaired, I urge the Minister to try to include a review of this but let us ensure that as a result of this debate and of arbitrary cut-off date in the work that she is doing in this inquiry we ensure, once and for all, that the patients the run-up to Christmas. I unambiguously welcome the do not experience further financial disadvantage from progress that we are making, as everybody from all this terrible situation. parties should. In particular, I ask for clarity on the figure of £3 billion. If there is a loose zero floating 3.34 pm around this debate, it will make it very hard for hon. Paul Maynard (Blackpool North and Cleveleys) (Con): Members fully to understand the motion and the issues I thank the Backbench Business Committee for tabling before us, so I ask for clarity. this motion. It is vital to realise that when the noble Finally, the number of people who have wanted to Lord Owen first took action on this issue as a Minister speak has underlined the importance that Members the year was 1975—the year of my birth, which shows attach to the subject. We will pay very close attention just how long this issue has been current and how long come Christmas to the outcome of the review. I am sure it has not been dealt with by Governments of all political that all of us in the Chamber and in the Public Gallery persuasions. will hope that we will finally get the closure that so I understand that when medical treatment does not many people want. It will be difficult to achieve, but we go according to plan—when something goes wrong and need it. disability or a chronic condition results from it—a wound is opened that is very difficult to heal. It cannot 3.38 pm be healed by money alone, although compensation is important. Intense frustrations are released. We have Richard Fuller (Bedford) (Con): Thank you for allowing heard talk of a lost childhood, for example, or of what me to speak for a couple of minutes, Mr Deputy Speaker. might have been or never would be, and of early deaths. The actions at the root of this debate take us back many Such events affect lives totally in a way that many of us years. For many of us—including me—they take us cannot really understand. back to a period that stirs great emotions. It was a That is why I welcome unambiguously the written period when an illness was ignored, when people’s deaths ministerial statement, not just for what it contains but and suffering were marked by stigma, when Governments for the fact that it deals with issues such as travel were in disarray and, too often, in denial and when insurance and access to insurance. I am not going to get life-changing mistakes were being made. hung up on what the meaning of the word “access” Everyone in this House commends the campaigners might or might not be in the view of the Minister. The on this issue for their vigilance and persistence over the fact that we are covering those things is what matters. years. The debate relates to a judgment between principle Many haemophiliacs want to lead as ordinary a life as and practicality in the operation of our Government, possible. We need to understand the gap between the but also to individual lives, such as that of a family that lives that ordinary people lead and the effect of haemophilia lives in Kempston in my constituency. The issue of and other conditions on people’s ability to lead an principle appears to be accepted and clear to all sides: a ordinary life. That, to me, is crucial. group of our own citizens, who had already suffered I made an effort to read the Minister’s statement greatly, have been denied justice for many—too many— before I came into the Chamber—many hon. Members years. It is the responsibility of all hon. Members to might have found that a useful exercise. However, having challenge the Government to bring that period of injustice read it carefully, I noted one omission—or, perhaps, one to a close. If December it is, Minister, then December it thing that I could not find. It was mentioned by my must be. hon. Friend the Member for Gosport (Caroline Dinenage), The main practical argument concerns cost, which is but I want to stress it a bit more: it is the Skipton Fund wrapped in the real pressures of affordability given the and the arbitrary cut-off date of 28 August 2003 for current pressures on the public purse. The written ministerial payments. I was not clear from the statement whether statement contains welcome indications for those affected that would be readdressed in the Minister’s review. by hepatitis, but I urge the Minister to consider the I came into politics largely out of frustration at the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool poor quality of public policy making in this country North and Cleveleys (Paul Maynard) in clearing up under all parties—I just happened to pick the Conservative other anomalies. 563 Contaminated Blood and Blood 14 OCTOBER 2010 Contaminated Blood and Blood 564 Products Products My constituent, Lisa, wrote to me urging me to days. Above all, I congratulate the campaigners on this attend this debate. She stated: issue, who over 25 years have made it possible for this “We must trust in the democratic process to enable us to bring historic debate to take place. about change”. We have heard some excellent contributions from It is my honour to represent her today. She wrote hon. Members on both sides of the House. One cannot movingly about how she lost her husband when he was touch on this subject without referring to the years of just 32—her son was just two years old at the time; work by the hon. Member for Cardiff Central (Jenny about the pain as his body struggled in his failing battle Willott). Many hon. Members have spoken movingly with HIV and hepatitis; about the consequential financial about their constituents, including my right hon. Friend pressures of losing her home; and about the sadness of the Member for Wythenshawe and Sale East (Paul a family life denied but which lives on in her heart and Goggins), my hon. Friends the Members for Liverpool, that of her son. Walton (Steve Rotheram), for Hammersmith Lord Jenkin described the issue of contaminated (Mr Slaughter), for Islwyn (Chris Evans) and for Walsall blood as “a disaster”, which is surely the right description. South (Valerie Vaz), and the hon. Members for Gillingham Yesterday, we witnessed on our television screens another and Rainham (Rehman Chishti), for Mid Bedfordshire country come together to overcome the consequences (Nadine Dorries) and for Dartford (Gareth Johnson). of another disaster and painstakingly rescue 33 heroes My hon. Friend the Member for Bridgend (Mrs Moon) who had suffered entrapment below ground and return made the important point that the victims include not them to their loved ones. Too many of the heroes who only the individuals struck down by those illnesses and have fought for justice cannot be here today and cannot tainted blood, but whole families. My hon. Friend the be returned to their loved ones. However, many of them Member for Stoke-on-Trent South (Robert Flello) said are here, and many of the loved ones of those affected that our Government—the outgoing Government—should by this disaster are present, too. have dealt with the matter. My right hon. Friend the It is time for the Government to show their mettle Member for Knowsley (Mr Howarth) called it one of and demonstrate their principles, if not their culpability. the major injustices of our time. My right hon. and I wait with anticipation to hear the Minister’s reply and well-respected Friend the Member for Coatbridge, Chryston place my trust and that of my constituents in her and Bellshill (Mr Clarke) said that there should be resolve. humility on both sides of the House. I welcome the review announced by the Minister and Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): I shall move the terms of reference. For the avoidance of doubt, I on to the Front-Bench speakers. I have the pleasure of have read the terms of reference, and I shall leave it to calling Diane Abbott. It has taken since 1987 for her to her to speak about them in detail. The Opposition reach the Front Bench, which is a long time, so we look particularly welcome the focus on the problems of forward to this experience. sufferers of hepatitis C, as well as the raising of issues of insurance and access to nursing care and care in the community. I urge her to conclude the report before the 3.41 pm end of the year if possible and, as she will understand, I Ms Diane Abbott (Hackney North and Stoke Newington) would be interested to see the costings behind the (Lab): We can see from the attendance of this debate questioned £3 billion figure that the Government have how seriously the entire House takes this historic injustice. put in their amendment. There is no more significant subject for me to discuss in Finally, I should like to commit myself to working my first speech at the Dispatch Box. with Members across the House to get the best possible We are all aware that the eyes of the haemophilia outcome for the people—some of whom many of us community are on us this afternoon. As my hon. Friend have met today—who have suffered so cruelly, so unfairly the Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) said, this historic and for so long. injustice represents a failure of the entire political class. This matter has been a long-standing concern of mine. 3.45 pm It concerns a small community, which, as we have The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health heard, consists of fewer than 5,000 people, of the sick, (Anne Milton): Let me start by congratulating the hon. the bereaved and the dying. I have long thought that the Member for Hackney North and Stoke Newington role of a Back Bencher is to be a voice for the voiceless. (Ms Abbott) on her new post. We have something in I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Coventry common, inasmuch as I worked in Hackney for most of North West (Mr Robinson) on moving the motion with my life before I entered politics. such passion and my hon. Friend the Member for This has been a moving debate and I, too, welcome Pontypridd (Owen Smith), whose brainchild it is. I note this opportunity to discuss these issues and to air people’s the fact, which is not sufficiently recognised, that without situations openly in the House. The story of those who the important reforms that took place at the end of the have been affected by contaminated blood and its products previous Parliament, which enabled Back Benchers to is a dreadful human tragedy. I wonder whether, but can set the agenda for this House, we would not be having only hope that, an expression of sympathy from me can this debate. go some way towards making a difference to those I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for North affected. I am deeply sorry about the events that led to East Derbyshire (Natascha Engel) on her leadership of the infection of people who were treated with blood the Backbench Business Committee. I agree, not for the products with HIV and hepatitis C. first time, with the right hon. Member for Haltemprice We always welcome new knowledge, but with that and Howden (Mr Davis) in saying that these Back-Bench knowledge often comes deep regret about events that debates should not be treated as second-class Opposition happened in the past. If we only knew then what we 565 Contaminated Blood and Blood 14 OCTOBER 2010 Contaminated Blood and Blood 566 Products Products [Anne Milton] only real treatment, therefore, was no treatment at all, and that was the case not only in the UK, but in know now. We should always make sure, individually countries throughout the world. At the time, France, and as Governments, that we have the humility to learn Germany, Japan and the United States all took a similar from our past. I thank hon. Members for raising so view, which was widely held by the scientific community many issues—about the terrible loss of life, of course, throughout the world. and about stigma and the additional cost of things such When those treatments were first introduced, we had as dentistry. Yes, I would happily meet a delegation of a very different view also of the risks from hepatitis C. hon. Members and my door will be open during this It was not until the mid-1980s that scientific and medical period of review. literature began to reflect increasing concern about the I shall do all I can, in the time and on the terms seriousness of disease associated with hepatitis C, and available, to make sure that people’s views on access to I, as somebody who was working as a nurse at the time, psychological support are heard. I shall not be able to remember it well. deal with all the points that have been raised today, but officials will come back to hon. Members, who, if they Dr Pugh: The Minister will be aware that in the have further questions, can always contact me. Government’s response to the Archer report, certain documents are described as “misplaced”—they no longer Diana R. Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab): exist or can be found. Do they have any bearing whatever Will the Minister address an issue that has not been on the analysis, and if they were discovered would they raised—the medical assessments that people on benefits correct it in any way? now have to go through under the new welfare reform programme? Will she consider making representations to her colleagues in the Department for Work and Anne Milton: I thank my hon. Friend for his question. Pensions about passporting this group of claimants so We are talking about a long time ago; that is the trouble. that they do not have to go through medical assessments I know that campaigners have been concerned about again? cover-ups, and that not all the documents have been released. I assure him that officials have told me that all Anne Milton: The hon. Lady makes an important documents have been released, but somewhere in the point that has crossed my mind already. I shall talk to back of a cupboard, somebody at some point might colleagues and officials in the DWP to make sure that discover more. It is a mistake to think that there is any that issue is addressed. conspiracy, however. I do believe, in all honesty, that It is important to put on record some relevant events. previous Governments and the current Government In the early 1960s, the life expectancy of someone with have done, and continue to do, all that they can to haemophilia was less than 40 years. In the early 1970s, ensure that all information is in the public domain. the development of a revolutionary new treatment—clotting As the consensus on the virus developed and factor concentrates produced from large pools of human technological advances occurred, the Government and plasma—led to what was then considered an exciting the NHS moved quite quickly to address the risks. Heat new era of treatment. It offered the potential to extend treatment was introduced in 1985, and that effectively significantly the length and quality of the lives of patients killed the hepatitis and HIV viruses. Validated tests for with haemophilia. The risk of viral transmission through screening blood donations were also introduced. Since blood and blood products was recognised at that time, then, Governments have introduced a number of important particularly the risk of post-transfusion hepatitis. Generally safeguards to protect the blood supply, not least, as we though, the consensus within the scientific community heard today, from newer risks such as new variant CJD. was that the risk of using multiple donors was low and We carefully assess, and shall continue to assess, all new worth taking. Significantly, at that time, the Haemophilia evidence as it comes to light, and we now have EU Society said, in a bulletin published in September 1983, directives that set standards of quality and safety. that I fully understand again the financial difficulties that “the advantages of treatment far outweigh any possible risk”. many of those affected by contaminated blood products Sadly, we know how wrong that was. Tragically, the face. I have met some of them, and they have told me in society was wrong and a devastating blow was dealt. some detail of their extraordinary experiences of living The initial hope was ultimately replaced by the dreadful with the aftermath of infection. Not only were many of realisation that, although lives were extended, almost them infected, but they went on to infect their partners. 5,000 patients with haemophilia in the UK and thousands They are, understandably, very concerned about their more throughout the world had been infected with own and their family’s financial security, and they look hepatitis C, HIV or indeed both. to the Government to provide a degree of certainty in Many of those people have since lost their lives to the years ahead. those conditions, and more continue to do so by the Going—what may feel like—cap in hand to the state week, and we should pay tribute to the many campaigners is demeaning, I know, but it is worth laying out the who have died. I fully understand the sense of grievance financial settlements that are currently available. Those and anger that people feel. I am not in that position, infected with HIV receive a flat-rate payment of £12,800 per and it is impossible to know fully what it feels like, but I year, and they may also be eligible for additional do understand some of it. I also know that for some discretionary payments. In the year ending April 2010, time, whatever the Government do, sadly it will be far the average total payment to an individual infected with too little, far too late. HIV was £17,400, although of course some received less At the time, however, no other treatment was available. and some received more. Those infected with hepatitis The UK blood supply and the only alternative, a product C are eligible to receive an initial one-off lump sum called cryoprecipitate, were both contaminated. The payment of £20,000 when they develop chronic infection. 567 Contaminated Blood and Blood 14 OCTOBER 2010 Contaminated Blood and Blood 568 Products Products Despite contracting the virus, some people will make a Whatever happened all those years ago does not full recovery, but many do not and go on to develop change the facts of today. In the United Kingdom, serious liver disease. For that group, there is a second decisions over tax and spend are made here in this one-off payment of £25,000. All those payments are Parliament. The decisions of the Irish Parliament, like tax-free and not used when calculating an individual’s those of any other national Parliament, have no authority eligibility for state benefits. Therefore, if they were here in the UK. The debate on contaminated blood unable to work for health reasons they would receive products has continued for many years, and I would like those benefits, but I take the point made by the hon. to close my remarks by again offering my sympathy and Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Diana expressing my deep regret at the events, and by saying R. Johnson). how sorry I am that this ever happened. The independent public inquiry on NHS-supplied contaminated blood and blood products, chaired by Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab): Lord Archer of Sandwell, investigated the circumstances Does the Minister accept that the nervousness that surrounding the supply of blood products. It made follows her logic of not looking at other countries several recommendations, the majority of which are in means that on a whole range of compensation issues place in one way or another. However, a small number the Government are now simply saying, “We are washing of recommendations have not been implemented. These our hands of our responsibilities”? primarily relate to aspects of the ex gratia payments, free prescriptions in England, and access to insurance. Anne Milton: I am not washing my hands of any responsibility—I am taking full responsibility. I am I have instigated a review of those recommendations determined to see this review completed by Christmas to see what more can be done. I know that hon. Members within the terms that I have laid out. would love me to finish that review before Christmas. I will do what I can in the time available; I know that time My right hon. Friend the Member for Charnwood is of the essence. The review will be conducted by (Mr Dorrell) summed up the implications of voting for Department of Health officials, but with the support of the motion more eloquently than I ever can. We cannot relevant clinical experts and external groups. The terms commit to aligning our compensation payments to those of reference should be in the Library. At this stage, let made in Ireland, and we cannot support the motion. me put on record that I will place in the Library how the This debate has been useful in two ways. It has given costs of implementing the Irish scheme in the UK were hon. Members a chance finally to let the depths of this arrived at. I know that that has caused some concern, tragedy be heard. It is absolutely dreadful that no time but I will come back to it, because time is very short. has been found to debate this issue on the Floor of the I do not have time to go into detail on what happened House before. Secondly, it has enabled us to discuss in Ireland, but it is important to place on the record that how we can move forward. I want everyone, including in an article in The Irish Times—I will ensure that this is hon. Members and campaigners, to be able to make also in the Library—Brian Cowen, then Minister for their views known and know that they will be taken into Health and Children in the Republic of Ireland, and account. I want the review to be dealt with openly and currently Taoiseach, confirmed that the Irish Government honestly, with clarity, without party politics, with humility knew in 1995 that the Blood Transfusion Service Board and with empathy. had been negligent and had attempted to conceal that I cannot turn the clock back and change events, but I fact. will do what I can in the time I am in office to bring some closure to those affected. Mr Slaughter: Will the Minister deal with the two points that I raised in my remarks? First, do the terms 4pm of reference permit the inquiry body to consider the issue of hepatitis C in it widest sense—that is, to give it Mr Robinson: I think the whole House would agree full parity, including in relation to the ex gratia payments that this has been an outstanding debate and has very of £12,800 a year for HIV? Secondly, given that she says much justified the new process for nominating Back-Bench that there are only a small number of recommendations business. I hope that in future we will have many such to be addressed, why does not the new inquiry consider all debates on important issues, debated in the same spirit those remaining issues, including the level of ex gratia as Members in all parts of the House have shown today payments? in discussing a non-party political issue. In essence, the heart of the motion, which I will press, Anne Milton: I thank the hon. Gentleman. I will is that an apology is due to the victims. I know that it is admit to a certain amount of ignorance. I do not know very difficult for Governments to give apologies, and what I can do, but I will do everything I can within what the Minister came very close to giving one in saying that I am allowed to do. It is important to say that I am very she much regretted what had happened. If it had been keen to get on with this. The danger with an inquiry given in the same spirit as the Prime Minister’s statement that extends its remit is that it drags on and on, and this on the Saville report on Bloody Sunday, it would have issue has dragged on for more than 25 years. been different, but it needed something a little more. No fault has ever been found here in the UK—a fact The second important element at the heart of the that has been tested in the courts. In 1988, a group of motion is the question of compensation. Some Members haemophilia patients and their families sued the have said that they cannot vote for the motion because Government of the day. They settled their case of the reference to Ireland, which is a foreign jurisdiction, outside court, midway through the proceedings, as their and concerns about where we might go from there. solicitors had advised that they had very limited chance However, whatever we had put in the motion, we would of success. have had the same approach from the Government. 569 Contaminated Blood and Blood 14 OCTOBER 2010 Contaminated Blood and Blood 570 Products Products [Mr Geoffrey Robinson] Mr Robinson: I can assure the Minister that we will not withdraw the motion. It is not encouraging for us to Members can try to salve their consciences in that way put our faith in her when all she does is hide behind a if they want, but the stark fact remains that the victims technicality. feel that they need an appropriate minimum level of compensation. They have asked us strongly to stick Dr Phillip Lee: I want to be clear about the point I with the motion and put it to Members. We are going to made earlier. I await some clarification on the figures, put a marker down on how we think the Minister’s but I will not support the hon. Gentleman’s motion review should come out. because it states that “a principal recommendation of I do not doubt the Minister’s sincerity, and she has a the…Inquiry” is that compensation is based on the long and distinguished history in the medical profession, Irish compensation scheme. Am I right? but it is hardly an auspicious beginning for the Government to table an amendment intended to void the Back-Bench Mr Robinson indicated assent. motion of its substance, then get their Whips up complaining to Mr Speaker about it, especially when it contains a figure that is out by a factor of three. The Dr Lee: I made it clear that I think we can decouple costs involved would not be more than £3 billion, as we from that and that we should not pay out on the basis of learned from the distinguished hon. Member for Bracknell a life expectancy that was in the 20s before a product (Dr Lee), who is a medical practitioner. He said that came on the market. That is why I will not support him they would be more like £1 billion. I cannot imagine in the Lobby. how the Government have allowed that figure, which is not just salient but material to the debate, to continue to Mr Robinson: No motion of the House is ever wholly be discussed without correction. correct. I have never voted for a motion with which I totally agree—[Interruption.] Ihatetosayit,butweare Anne Milton rose— reverting to party politics on an issue that has nothing to do with it. No motion is ever perfect. As the hon. Gentleman knows, we are debating a principle. We Mr Robinson: I give way to the Minister so that she should recognise that there should be much more can explain that to us. compensation—[Interruption.] If Conservative Members think that this is a laughing matter, I will leave it to Anne Milton: I have said that I will place in the them and their consciences. Library details of how those figures were arrived at. They came about not through a typo in Lord Archer’s report but through careful consideration. The comparison Mark Durkan: Did my hon. Friend note that the with Ireland is difficult to make because the circumstances Minister said that as well as placing in the Library an of those receiving compensation there are different, but explanation of how the figures were arrived at, she that is not the salient point of the motion—it is whether would place a copy of an article from The Irish Times, we should align ourselves with a scheme set up by quoting Brian Cowen, who was then Minister of Health Ireland. in the Republic? Brian Cowen became Minister of Health in 1997, but the compensation scheme in the south began in 1996 and issued significant payments then. Mr Robinson: That is not the central point of the There are misleading versions of what subsequent tribunals motion at all; it is utterly irrelevant to the debate. The said and what was admitted by the Irish Government, debate is about justice for the victims of a terrible but the Irish compensation scheme was not based on disaster, and whatever we had put in the motion we that admission of liability or that knowledge. would have had the same attitude from the Government, which after all is the one that we have had from all previous Administrations. When I opened the debate I Mr Robinson: I am very grateful to my hon. Friend said that that we now had a golden opportunity for the for that intervention. Perhaps the Minister would like to Secretary of State to break with the past. He bears no say whether that is correct. Perhaps she does not know. responsibility for what went on, unlike some of us, The debate is degenerating into the to and fro of Opposition including me when I was at the Treasury and the right against Government interchanges. Let me assure the hon. Member for Charnwood (Mr Dorrell) when he Health Secretary and the Minister that no one who has was at the Department of Health. The Secretary of taken part in the debate really wants that. State had a golden opportunity to put the past behind The simple fact of why we are proposing this motion us and say, “A great injustice was done and a terrible and resisting the Government amendment is that we are misjudgement was made.” Several Members have made pressing for a recognition that a gross injustice has it clear that the suffering of the victims and their taken place and that it must be put right. That will families goes on, and he should have said that the involve high levels of compensation. We beg the Government would now take steps to correct it. To say Government not to believe the figures that are automatically that it would cost £3 billion when it would actually be produced to exaggerate the situation. less than £1 billion is, as I said, hardly an auspicious start. Mr Tom Clarke: Does my hon. Friend recall that when many of us were fighting for compensation for Anne Milton: May I reiterate that recommendation 6(h) retired miners, we were given exactly the same arguments of the Archer report states that against—for 18 years? The question today is whether “payments should be at least the equivalent of those payable we are prepared to wait that long for a solution to this under the Scheme which applies at any time in Ireland”? problem. 571 Contaminated Blood and Blood 14 OCTOBER 2010 Contaminated Blood and Blood 572 Products Products Mr Robinson: Again, my right hon. Friend makes the Collins, Damian Hoban, Mr Mark telling point that we have waited too long, but the Colvile, Oliver Hollingbery, George problem will go on for longer. Why is the Minister Cox, Mr Geoffrey Holloway, Mr Adam defending further delay? Why is she defending £3 billion, Crabb, Stephen Hopkins, Kris and why is she giving out incorrect information? Let us Crouch, Tracey Howarth, Mr Gerald not have a debate on that basis. We want Back Benchers Davies, David T. C. Howell, John (Monmouth) Hughes, Simon in this Back-Bench debate to vote for the motion in my Davies, Glyn Huhne, rh Chris name because it does some justice to those who, for Davies, Philip Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy many years, have been condemned to a slow, lingering de Bois, Nick Huppert, Dr Julian and very unpleasant death. Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Jackson, Mr Stewart Question put. Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen James, Margot Dorries, Nadine Javid, Sajid The House divided: Ayes 44, Noes 285. Doyle-Price, Jackie Jenkin, Mr Bernard Division No. 76] [4.8 pm Duddridge, James Johnson, Gareth Duncan, rh Mr Alan Johnson, Joseph AYES Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Jones, Andrew Dunne, Mr Philip Jones, Mr David Bailey, Mr Adrian Jackson, Glenda Ellis, Michael Jones, Mr Marcus Clark, Katy Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Ellison, Jane Kawczynski, Daniel Clarke, rh Mr Tom Lammy, rh Mr David Ellwood, Mr Tobias Kelly, Chris Clwyd, rh Ann Lucas, Caroline Elphicke, Charlie Kirby, Simon Connarty, Michael McCartney, Jason Eustice, George Knight, rh Mr Greg Cruddas, Jon McDonnell, John Evans, Graham Kwarteng, Kwasi Cunningham, Mr Jim McFadden, rh Mr Pat Evennett, Mr David Laing, Mrs Eleanor Dakin, Nic Michael, rh Alun Fabricant, Michael Lamb, Norman Davidson, Mr Ian Miller, Andrew Fallon, Michael Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Davis, rh Mr David Moon, Mrs Madeleine Farron, Tim Latham, Pauline Docherty, Thomas Morden, Jessica Field, Mr Mark Laws, rh Mr David Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M. Mulholland, Greg Foster, Mr Don Leadsom, Andrea Doran, Mr Frank Murphy, rh Paul Fox,rhDrLiam Lee, Jessica Dowd, Jim Nokes, Caroline Francois, rh Mr Mark Lee, Dr Phillip Durkan, Mark Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Freeman, George Lefroy, Jeremy Engel, Natascha Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Freer, Mike Leslie, Charlotte Evans, Chris Rotheram, Steve Fullbrook, Lorraine Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Evans, Jonathan Skinner, Mr Dennis Garnier, Mr Edward Lewis, Dr Julian Farrelly, Paul Vaz, rh Keith Garnier, Mark Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Gardiner, Barry Williamson, Chris Gauke, Mr David Lilley, rh Mr Peter Green, Kate George, Andrew Lopresti, Jack Hamilton, Mr Fabian Tellers for the Ayes: Gibb, Mr Nick Lord, Jonathan Hollobone, Mr Philip Valerie Vaz and Gilbert, Stephen Lumley, Karen Howarth, rh Mr George Paul Goggins Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Macleod, Mary Glen, John Main, Mrs Anne NOES Goldsmith, Zac Maude, rh Mr Francis Adams, Nigel Bray, Angie Goodwill, Mr Robert May, rh Mrs Theresa Afriyie, Adam Brazier, Mr Julian Gove, rh Michael Maynard, Paul Aldous, Peter Bridgen, Andrew Graham, Richard McCartney, Karl Alexander, rh Danny Brine, Mr Steve Grant, Mrs Helen McIntosh, Miss Anne Andrew, Stuart Brokenshire, James Grayling, rh Chris McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Brooke, Annette Green, Damian McPartland, Stephen Bacon, Mr Richard Browne, Mr Jeremy Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Menzies, Mark Bagshawe, Ms Louise Bruce, Fiona Griffiths, Andrew Mercer, Patrick Baker, Steve Bruce, rh Malcolm Gummer, Ben Metcalfe, Stephen Baldry, Tony Buckland, Mr Robert Gyimah, Mr Sam Miller, Maria Barclay, Stephen Burley, Mr Aidan Halfon, Robert Mills, Nigel Baron, Mr John Burns, Conor Hames, Duncan Milton, Anne Barwell, Gavin Burns, Mr Simon Hammond, rh Mr Philip Moore, rh Michael Bebb, Guto Burrowes, Mr David Hammond, Stephen Mordaunt, Penny Bellingham, Mr Henry Burstow, Paul Hancock, Matthew Morgan, Nicky Benyon, Richard Burt, Alistair Hands, Greg Morris, David Berry, Jake Burt, Lorely Harper, Mr Mark Morris, James Bingham, Andrew Cable, rh Vince Harrington, Richard Mosley, Stephen Binley, Mr Brian Cairns, Alun Harris, Rebecca Mowat, David Birtwistle, Gordon Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Hart, Simon Mundell, rh David Blackman, Bob Carmichael, Mr Alistair Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Munt, Tessa Blackwood, Nicola Carmichael, Neil Hayes, Mr John Murray, Sheryll Boles, Nick Carswell, Mr Douglas Heald, Mr Oliver Murrison, Dr Andrew Bone, Mr Peter Chishti, Rehman Heath, Mr David Newton, Sarah Bottomley, Peter Clappison, Mr James Heaton-Harris, Chris Norman, Jesse Bradley, Karen Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Henderson, Gordon Nuttall, Mr David Brady, Mr Graham Clegg, rh Mr Nick Hendry, Charles Offord, Mr Matthew Brake, Tom Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Hinds, Damian Ollerenshaw, Eric 573 Contaminated Blood and Blood 14 OCTOBER 2010 574 Products Opperman, Guy Stewart, Bob Anti-Slavery Day Ottaway, Richard Stewart, Iain Parish, Neil Stewart, Rory Pawsey, Mark Stride, Mel 4.23 pm Penning, Mike Sturdy, Julian Penrose, John Swayne, Mr Desmond Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): I beg to Percy, Andrew Syms, Mr Robert move, Perry, Claire Teather, Sarah That this House has considered the matter of Anti-Slavery Day. Phillips, Stephen Thurso, John It is probably close to 200 years since this House has Pickles, rh Mr Eric Timpson, Mr Edward debated slavery. As the chairman of the all-party human Pincher, Christopher Tomlinson, Justin trafficking group, it is my great pleasure to open this Poulter, Dr Daniel Tredinnick, David debate, but it should not have been me opening it; it Prisk, Mr Mark Truss, Elizabeth should have been the hon. Member for Slough (Fiona Pritchard, Mark Turner, Mr Andrew Mactaggart). I congratulate her on her pitch to the Pugh, Dr John Uppal, Paul Backbench Business Committee and her success in securing Raab, Mr Dominic Vaizey, Mr Edward Randall, rh Mr John Vara, Mr Shailesh this debate. However, once she had done so, she was Redwood, rh Mr John Vickers, Martin immediately put into the shadow Government. She has Rees-Mogg, Jacob Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa risen like a phoenix from the ashes, and is now sitting Reid, Mr Alan Walker, Mr Charles by the Dispatch Box to answer for the Opposition. Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Walker, Mr Robin I congratulate her not only on securing this debate, but Robathan, Mr Andrew Wallace, Mr Ben on her promotion. Robertson, Hugh Walter, Mr Robert William Wilberforce is a name that is synonymous Robertson, Mr Laurence Ward, Mr David with anti-slavery. In 1807, led by Wilberforce, an Act for Rogerson, Dan Watkinson, Angela the abolition of the slave trade was passed by Parliament. Rosindell, Andrew Weatherley, Mike In 1833, the Slavery Abolition Act was passed. Why, Rudd, Amber Webb, Steve Ruffley, Mr David Wharton, James therefore, are we here debating slavery, more than 200 years Russell, Bob White, Chris after the abolition of the slave trade? Perhaps we are Rutley, David Whittaker, Craig celebrating the success of William Wilberforce. Or are Sandys, Laura Whittingdale, Mr John we here to congratulate ourselves that no slavery remains Scott, Mr Lee Wiggin, Bill within the United Kingdom? We cannot do that. Slavery Selous, Andrew Willetts, rh Mr David and trafficking are still far too common an occurrence. Shapps, rh Grant Williams, Mr Mark A frightening statistic is that there are estimated to be Sharma, Alok Williams, Roger more than 27 million slaves in the world today. One in Simmonds, Mark Williams, Stephen eight of them are in Europe, and at least 10,000 of them Simpson, Mr Keith Williamson, Gavin are here in the United Kingdom. How can that be true? Skidmore, Chris Wilson, Mr Rob When I walk around London or my constituency, I do Smith, Henry Wright, Jeremy not see slaves sweeping the streets or working in the Smith, Julian Wright, Simon fields. The fact that the problem is not as visible as it Smith, Sir Robert Young, rh Sir George was in the time of William Wilberforce does not mean Soames, Nicholas that it is not as important or as serious. Soubry, Anna Tellers for the Noes: Stephenson, Andrew Miss Chloe Smith and Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): The hon. Gentleman Stevenson, John Mark Hunter rightly paid tribute to the work of my hon. Friend the Member for Slough (Fiona Mactaggart), but will he Question accordingly negatived. join me in paying tribute to the work of Anthony Steen, his predecessor as Chairman of the all-party parliamentary group on human trafficking, for all his excellent work on bringing to the House’s attention the slavery that is human trafficking? I am sure that he was about to mention him in his speech. Mr Bone: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend—I shall call him my right hon. Friend today—for that intervention, but he will have to wait just a little longer before I mention the former Member for Totnes. The three most lucrative criminal activities in the world are those associated with narcotics and with firearms, and the trafficking of humans. The first two criminal activities are well documented and vast sums of money are rightly invested in catching the criminals involved. Why then is the trafficking of humans—modern- day slavery—so badly documented, and why is so little invested in the fight against it? It takes place on the same scale as narcotics and firearms offences, and that gap needs to be addressed. So where are all those slaves, and whom does this affect? In the United Kingdom, the main victims are women and children. They are often tricked into coming 575 Anti-Slavery Day14 OCTOBER 2010 Anti-Slavery Day 576 to this country, usually with a promise of some sort of having the wherewithal to understand, albeit with the job. When they arrive here, they are often locked up and best will in the world, that it is linked to the evil of forced to have sex with up to 30 men a day. I shall give slavery and human trafficking. the House an example. I met a 14-year-old Kenyan girl who had been trafficked into this country by a middle-aged Mr Bone: My hon. Friend puts the case perfectly and white man on a passport that did not bear her name and I entirely agree with him. did not have her picture on it. She was taken to Liverpool, Returning to the point about making this country locked in a house and forced to have sex with numerous one into which traffickers do not want to come, traffickers men. Luckily, she escaped after a few days and was are interested only in the money. We need to make it so helped by a national charity. She was one of the lucky difficult for them that they do not want to try to operate ones, if you can call it lucky to endure what she had had here. That is why the coalition Government’s new proposal to. She managed to escape, but how many girls do not for a border police provides an opportunity to put manage to do so? How many girls are locked in houses trafficking right at the heart of this new initiative. such as those while we are debating this issue today? Trafficking must stop, but it will stop only with the help Even if there were just one, that would be one too many, of everyone—here and across the nation. William but there is not just one; there are thousands. Wilberforce did not pass the legislation to abolish the We have some fantastic non-governmental organisations slave trade and to abolish slavery for political gain or to working with trafficked victims, including ECPAT UK, achieve votes; he realised there was a fundamental the POPPY project, the Human Trafficking Foundation, problem that needed to be addressed. the Bromley Trust, the Tudor Trust, and Kalayaan, to Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): I welcome my hon. name but a few. Their work must not stop. I have one Friend’s comments. One difficulty dealing with trafficked single goal, however: I want all those NGOs and charities women is that they often believe that they are here to become redundant, because they are no longer needed. illegally. They do not go to the police because they are That is my aim. As I mentioned, they do fantastic work terrified that, if they do, terrible things will happen and with trafficked victims, but I believe that prevention is the police will prosecute them. What does my hon. the key. Friend think should be the immigration or legal status How do we prevent human trafficking? That is a very of people who find themselves trafficked here? Clearly, difficult question to answer. I believe that making the they are not asylum seekers in the accepted meaning of public more aware of the issue is a good first step. On the term, so how do they fit into the immigration 18 October, the UK will celebrate anti-slavery day for system? the first time. I would like to take this opportunity to thank my former colleague, Anthony Steen, for working Mr Bone: I am conscious of time and of the fact that tirelessly to make the Anti-slavery Day Act 2010 his many other Members want to contribute to the debate. lasting legacy to the House. He pioneered an approach I shall wind up shortly, but to answer my hon. Friend’s to human trafficking that I am very happy to follow. point, these people are victims and they should be Quite simply, he put modern-day slavery on the looked after; there are organisations such as the POPPY parliamentary map. Anti-slavery day will mark out project that do look after them. We have a strange what we all hope will be the beginning of the end of system at the moment whereby an adult victim of slavery in the United Kingdom and make the public human trafficking gets better treatment than a child. aware of the gravity of the problem. Unfortunately, I do not have time to go into this further, as I note that so many Members want to speak in the What can be done? First, we need to identify victims debate. better. Very few ever approach local authorities to complain, and even if they do, those authorities might not realise Finally, I am ashamed to stand here as a citizen of that the problem has resulted from trafficking and this great nation and admit that we have failed William modern-day slavery. The police are on the front line of Wilberforce. After 200 years, the slave trade is still very trafficking. The individual police officer on the beat is much alive. In 200 years’ time, I do not want another the best and probably the first person to meet a trafficked Member of this House to stand where I am today and victim, but does every police officer know what to do, admit that he is ashamed that they have failed in what how to help and to whom they should send the victim? we are trying to achieve today. The first anti-slavery day We need to help the police and make them more aware must mark the start of the decline of modern-day of trafficked women. There needs to be a national slavery in our country. protocol to help victims. 4.34 pm We also need to enhance the border control system Mr David Lammy (Tottenham) (Lab): Back in 2007, and stop the traffickers from bringing in the victims in when Labour was in government, it was my great privilege the first place. That is the very best way to end trafficking. to be asked by the then Prime Minister, Tony Blair, to The UK must be a country that it is just not worth the help the country to prepare for the commemoration of traffickers using. the abolition of the slave trade. That was an important moment for this country, which brought people together Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con): Will across the House and, indeed, across the country to my hon. Friend join me in paying tribute to some of the remember another very important moment in our history. excellent work done by the Metropolitan police in Certainly in the cities of London, Liverpool, Bristol combating the evil of human trafficking in London? I and Hull it was a hugely significant event. We recalled, echo the point I believe he is making well—I seek to of course, William Wilberforce, but also people such as reinforce it—about the lack of awareness and training Thomas Clarkson and Equiano and Ignatio Sancho—black in other police forces across the country. They will often and white men and women who made a difference to come to dealing with a problem like prostitution without bring this awful trade to an end. 577 Anti-Slavery Day14 OCTOBER 2010 Anti-Slavery Day 578

[Mr David Lammy] constituency are also happening throughout the rest of the country; estimates of the number of such children I learnt much that year. I learnt about the many who might be here run into the thousands. It is also the women in Britain who boycotted sugar in order to bring wrong time to get rid of that organisation because of all the trade to an end, and the many petitions and marches we know about the sex trafficking of women, and organised in cities such as Sheffield to say, “Enough is younger women in particular. I therefore ask the Minister enough”. It was an important year. Obviously it was an to reflect on that decision and to think of the great important year for me personally, because I stand here history of this country. Britain is a country that can as the ancestor of those who found themselves— make a huge difference in the fight against the human [Interruption.] I am sorry, I mean that they were my trafficking that is taking place across the country and ancestors. That is how far back in history I was taken as the world. It is estimated that some 27 million people I spoke. I stand here as the descendant of those who across the world are still in some form of bondage, were enslaved. whether in respect of a trade or domestic slavery. As we remind ourselves of what the House has done This is an important issue therefore, and I ask the to bring about the end of that terrible period in our Minister to reflect carefully not only on our position in history, we should bear in mind that it is hugely important Europe but on the message we send in debating these for us to redouble our efforts in relation to trafficking as matters and in choosing how to make a difference it exists in this country and around the world at this through treaties, directives and protocols. time. Tragically, it was in my constituency that the sad death of Victoria Climbié took place in the early part of Several hon. Members rose— this century. In the winter of 1999-2000, in a terraced house in Tottenham, she was terribly abused by a supposed Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. Members aunt who had brought her here from the Ivory Coast. will have noticed that an eight-minute time limit has Members will recall her dying, effectively, in a bathtub now been introduced. in that house, having been whipped, chained and terribly physically abused in this country. They will also recall the inquiry, the Laming report, and much that came out 4.42 pm of her sad, tragic death. Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD): First, That case put a spotlight on the nature of child I want to congratulate the hon. Member for Slough trafficking in this country. We must all have hoped it (Fiona Mactaggart) on the significant and important would bring trafficking to an end, but it has not brought role she has played in pushing this issue, and also on it to an end. Very sadly, in my constituency today I securing the debate. I also want to echo the comments recall other children who have been trafficked. I think of various previous speakers about the role Anthony of Tunde Jaji, a young man brought here from Nigeria Steen has played in pushing this agenda and bringing it at the age of five. His case has now become a successful to the notice of Parliament; I agree with the hon. play, which was performed at the Edinburgh festival Member for Wellingborough (Mr Bone) that it is a great just this year. It, too, involved terrible abuse by a pity that he was not present today to participate in, and supposed aunt and her husband, again in the streets of perhaps open, the debate. Tottenham, and had a terribly dysfunctional effect on Anti-slavery day provides us with an opportunity to that young man. On this occasion, the story ends with reflect on our ancestors’ role in this trade and on the some joy. A teacher at Park View academy, a wonderful fact that it is still an issue today. We are being reminded woman called Lynne Awbery, took him into her own of that almost daily. Literally a couple of minutes home, and nourished and supported him. He graduated before the debate started, I had a chance conversation from Bournemouth university with a fantastic degree in with my hon. Friend the Member for Colchester (Bob animation, and now dedicates himself to that. Russell) who has just been meeting to discuss the issue Such tragic human cases sit alongside our concerns in of St Helena. Apparently two of what he believes are the House, and in that context it is important for us not the largest concentrations of graves of slaves anywhere just to celebrate an anti-slavery day, but to ensure that in the world have just been found on St Helena. The we in this country, given our own past, honour and island was used as a transit point and the slaves who redouble our efforts in relation to this terrible crime. It had, presumably, died on the boats were offloaded and worries me that the Government have chosen not to buried on it. There are events even now that remind us ratify the EU directive; I am hugely concerned about of that past, therefore. the fact that they have exercised the right to opt out on I also attended an event a couple of weeks ago to do this occasion. I say that because of our own history in with black history month. One of the speakers pointed this country, and the important position that we have in out that although she was Jamaican her surname was the world in relation to these matters. It is very hard to clearly Scottish, and that that was because her ancestors encourage other countries to sign the protocol if we do had been slaves in an area where the landowner and not feel able to do so ourselves. It is very hard to say we keeper of the slaves—if I can put it that way—was are keeping our own house in order if we choose not to Scottish and had passed on his surname to all the slaves ratify. I therefore hope that the Minister might reconsider working on his land. that position before he comes to wind up the debate. Even more recently—just a couple of days ago—a I am also concerned that the Child Exploitation and Romanian gang was broken up. It is alleged—we will Online Protection Centre is to be abolished, especially have to wait for the court case verdict—that it was given the global nature of this country and the past that responsible for using children for begging in the UK. I have outlined, including the recent past in my own Slavery is therefore not only a topic that we need to constituency. Events such as those that took place in my reflect on historically, but one that is present today. 579 Anti-Slavery Day14 OCTOBER 2010 Anti-Slavery Day 580

Stephen Barclay (North East Cambridgeshire) (Con): come into force? People will want to express emotional I thank the right hon. Member for Tottenham (Mr Lammy) views in this debate, so I wish to conclude simply by for drawing attention to the work of Thomas Clarkson, saying that it is regrettable that we are having to have an of Wisbech in my constituency, who did so much to anti-slavery day debate because slavery is alive and well gather the evidence on which the case was put by in the world. I hope that in future years—perhaps a William Wilberforce in this place. Does the hon. Member number of years from now—such a debate will not be for Carshalton and Wallington (Tom Brake) agree that necessary. one of the problems—one of the pockets—is to be found within the diplomatic community? Although this is a complex area in terms of the legal framework, 4.49 pm diplomatic immunity should not be grounds for allowing Lisa Nandy (Wigan) (Lab): Like the hon. Member for conditions akin to slavery to exist. Carshalton and Wallington (Tom Brake), I come to this debate very pleased that we are marking the end of one Tom Brake: That is a very pertinent and topical of the most horrific practices in legal history, but concerned point, although it might be slightly beyond my pay that a significant problem still exists in the UK, with grade to respond to it on behalf of the Foreign and large numbers of women, boys and girls still sold into Commonwealth Office. Perhaps the Minister may use slavery in this country every year. his response as an opportunity to put across the Over the past five years, at the Children’s Society, I Government’s perspective on that point. have had the privilege of working with some of the Many forms of slavery are alive and well today, remarkable children who have survived this horrific including bonded labour. People can enter bonded labour practice. Most were brought into the UK to be sold for for something as simple as the cost of medicine for a sex, forced labour, domestic slavery or enforced begging. sick child, and it then locks them into providing labour They were boys as well as girls and nearly all of them free or in exchange for food and shelter. That can be had experienced a combination of mental, physical and labour that they have to provide 365 days a year and it sexual violence. can be impossible for them to get out of that arrangement. This is a hidden crime, so it is incredibly difficult to As many hon. Members will know, Dalits fall into that persuade people that it still goes on. I can say to hon. category. Those are peoples in both India and other Members that I am absolutely certain that this is happening parts of the subcontinent who can end up in lifelong in my Wigan constituency at this very minute, and in all servitude, which often gets passed down through constituencies across the country. I am pleased that so generations. many Members have turned out to mark such an important debate. Tony Baldry: How does my hon. Friend suggest that The previous Government made significant attempts we deal with that? Hundreds of thousands of people to tackle the problem and I want to pay tribute to the are involved in bonded labour in India, but India is a work that was done, particularly the ratification of the mature democracy, although one to which we still provide Palermo protocol and the Council of Europe convention. some development assistance. How and where does he They were huge steps forward. The decision not to opt suggest that we exert influence to help bring about the in to the EU directive was and remains the wrong end of bonded labour in mature democracies such as decision, and I hope that the present Government will India? think again on that point. The Minister, for whom I have considerable respect, is known to be a humane Tom Brake: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that man and is interested in this area. I hope that he will intervention. The only tool at our disposal is the one bring us some good news on that point. that we are using at this moment: raising the issue and It is simply not true that we already comply with the using that as a gentle encouragement to the Indian European directive on trafficking in human beings. Let Government, and other Governments in the subcontinent, me give hon. Members an example of a 17-year-old to respond to these challenges. young man whom I have met and worked with. He was The time available does not allow an in-depth discussion brought into the UK and forced to work illegally in a about trafficking, although we had a fairly full debate cannabis factory. After several years of that, he was on it just a couple of days ago. Inevitably, and correctly, picked up in a police raid at the age of 17. After several that debate touched on the EU directive, and I simply years of working in the most appalling conditions, with wish to restate what I said then. I welcome the fact that no natural daylight, subjected to cannabis fumes daily, the Government are reviewing the directive, but I hope he had significant mental health problems, as one would that if it is clear at the end of that review process that expect. Yet he was prosecuted for working illegally and the directive pushes us significantly beyond where we for documentation offences. When I worked at the are on tackling human trafficking, the Government will Children’s Society, I was told over and over again, along then opt in to the directive. with colleagues from ECPAT UK—which stands for In order to allow others their opportunity to speak in End Child Prostitution, Child Pornography and the the debate, I shall finish by discussing just one other Trafficking of Children for Sexual Purposes—and other important point—the legal framework to tackle slavery tremendous organisations, that this problem simply does in the UK. It is only this year that we have legislated to not exist, yet every day we were seeing for ourselves that deal with an offence of forced labour or domestic it did. I am sure that it still does. servitude. At least we now have clarity, because the When I came across the young man in my example, legislation is in place. Is the Minister in a position to tell he was serving time in a young offenders institution and the House whether there have been any prosecutions or had, thankfully, come to the attention of the British convictions under that legislation, which has recently Refugee Council, which was able to find him a good 581 Anti-Slavery Day14 OCTOBER 2010 Anti-Slavery Day 582

[Lisa Nandy] Some passion has been expended in this House this week, whether on the date of a referendum, the reform lawyer who got him out. I am outraged that that vulnerable of housing benefit, the European Union budget, or young man should have been subjected to such treatment contaminated blood. This subject, above all, is one on at the hands of the state—at our hands. I cannot help which we should expend considerable passion. We should but think that had that young man been British the state how outrageous it is that 200 years after Wilberforce response would have been quite different. It is unthinkable got rid of the visible slave trade, that cruel and inhumane that a child or young person who comes to the state and form of treatment of our fellow human beings has crept alleges such appalling abuse should be treated in such a back. manner. Far too often these children are seen as perpetrators We are discussing a truly global phenomenon, which rather than victims, and as immigrants rather than is happening not only in this country and in Europe but children. We all—on both sides of the House—should around the world. Last night I trawled the internet and seek to change that. picked out relevant press cuttings from the past two The EU directive sets out explicitly that it should be days. There are press reports about trafficking across possible not to prosecute victims. That would be a east Africa, and countries such as Tanzania, Kenya and major step forward in our treatment of these children. Rwanda are forming a regional network to do something My experience of working with children who have been about it. subjected to slavery is that it is often simply not recognised A national action plan has been established in Greece, that they are vulnerable, particularly when they are where the situation is relevant to this country. Children older—when they are 17, for example. They do not look and young people, often young girls, from Romania, like the very vulnerable young people they are, so they Albania, Ukraine, Moldova, Bulgaria and Russia are are not treated as such. often tempted to travel to Athens. Their families may be I have been told over years and years that we can in economic difficulties, and they are lured to Athens by achieve the standards set out in the EU directive simply the prospect of a better life having been told that they by changing our working practices. That might be true, will be working as, for example, a hairdresser. They are but it has not happened. While it has not happened, taken to Athens before being sent to Amsterdam, London, children like the young man I have talked about are Hamburg or another great European city, where they subjected to further harm by the state, because we end up working in brothels as captives. It is good to see simply have not got this right. Greece taking the matter seriously. Let me give one more example before I let other In Malaysia nine people have been arrested in the Members speak. I have worked with very young children— past two days, seven of whom are immigration officials. aged eight or nine—who are adamant that the person I ask the Minister whether we are checking our staff to exploiting them is their uncle, their daddy or some other ensure that they are not complicit with gangs. relative who has their best interests at heart. When Those examples illustrate that we are discussing a young children have been deceived in that way, we have worldwide problem, but at the same time it is a local a huge problem. Their lawyer is duty bound to act on problem that happens in our constituents’ streets. We the instructions that that child has given. The EU know that brothels operate in private houses; we know directive sets out very clearly that child victims must that people are being used for domestic servitude in have a guardian to represent them in the courts, who private houses; and we know that people are being would be able to instruct the lawyer on their behalf. forced to work as bonded labour in businesses that are Without that measure, which we have singularly failed close to us and to our constituents. We can all do our to introduce—and in so failing, we have failed those bit, because we can all be eyes and ears. We all need to children—we will not see prosecutions and we will look out and help the police and the authorities. Even never bring to justice the evil people who are doing so buying Fairtrade chocolate provides us with an assurance much damage to children in our constituencies. that the chocolate that we are eating has not been produced by children who have been forced to work on Several hon. Members rose— cocoa plantations in Africa. Prevention is obviously better than cure. How much Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. I am public education and awareness raising is being done in grateful to the hon. Lady for shortening her remarks. the source countries from which people are being trafficked? As we can all see, many hon. Members want to contribute How engaged are the Foreign and Commonwealth Office to this debate, so the time limit is being shortened to six and the Department for International Development in minutes. trying to spread public education and awareness, so that those young girls realise that there is great danger in 4.55 pm being lured to be a hairdresser in Europe, and that it will probably not end up that way. Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con): It is As Members of Parliament we all have a close a good sign that you have had to shorten the time limit, relationship with our local newspapers, yet virtually all Mr Deputy Speaker, and I am pleased that so many those newspapers—this is certainly true of the five hon. Members are interested in the subject. newspapers in my constituency—carry advertisements The scale of this worldwide problem has not sunk in. for “adult services”, as they are euphemistically called. My hon. Friend the Member for Wellingborough (Mr Bone) opened the debate by saying that 27 million people are Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab): The hon. Gentleman in some form of slavery around the world, which is just mentions advertisements in newspapers. Will he praise less than half the population of the United Kingdom. Newsquest, the newspaper publishing organisation, which That is a truly shocking statistic. has just banned such advertisements? 583 Anti-Slavery Day14 OCTOBER 2010 Anti-Slavery Day 584

Andrew Selous: The hon. Lady is obviously a mind House, as the hon. Member for Wellingborough (Mr Bone) reader, to add to her other talents, because that is has said. I pay tribute to the hon. Member for exactly what I was about to say. The Newsquest group Wellingborough for picking up this torch; he will become has set an example, and I ask all hon. Members to ask just as distinguished in his time in ensuring that this the editors of their local papers to follow that example. remains at the forefront of concerns among That is something practical that we can do. This is not parliamentarians. just about asking the Minister to do things; we can do Of course, this is an important issue. The Select things in our constituencies and we can get our constituents Committee on Home Affairs conducted a very long involved in doing something. inquiry into human trafficking, which lasted a year. The Can we have a minimum sentence for traffickers? hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington was one Diplomats have been mentioned briefly. Any diplomat of the members of that Committee, which travelled to who is found to be involved in human trafficking should Russia and Ukraine. We took evidence from all the not have the right to be an accredited diplomat at the projects that have been mentioned today and we found, Court of St James’s, but should be expelled forthwith. I as my hon. Friend the Member for Wigan has pointed think that that suggestion would find wide support in out, that victims were reluctant to come forward. We the House. found out stunning statistics about what is the second- We desperately need better co-ordination between biggest illegal activity in the world after drugs. It is a the police, the Crown Prosecution Service and the judiciary, billion-pound illegal industry, but it is very difficult to because these cases often fall down. We need the Ministry get people to come forward. That is why it is crucial that of Justice to get the police and the CPS together to we have at our disposal the ability to track down the work out how we can have more success with getting people traffickers. convictions, of which there have been pitifully few in the I endorse what my right hon. Friend the Member for UK. That is not for lack of trying, through legislation, Tottenham said about the EU directive. It is very important by many of us in this Parliament. There is a real that the Minister should reflect on this issue in the problem with things not working as well as they could. coming weeks and months and that we sign up to the We also need much better liaison between the police directive. We cannot be kept apart from the rest of and local authorities. That is working well in some Europe when we need the support of other European places, such as with West Sussex county council, Operation countries to achieve the good and laudable aims that Paladin at Heathrow airport, and at St Pancras with the the current Government have in this area and that the Eurostar. There are very good relations between the previous Government certainly had. police and social services in that regard. In Westminster, I want to raise with the Minister three practical issues too, there is a very good protocol between the police that will help us to achieve that aim. First, the Home and the council on forced marriage and honour-based Affairs Committee raised with the previous Prime Minister violence. They are looking into incorporating that further our concern about funding for the Metropolitan police’s in relation to trafficking in connection with the MARAC— people trafficking unit, which was disbanded nine months multi-agency risk assessment conference—procedures. ago. Despite that, we have had successes, such as during This is a big issue and a worthy cause for all hon. Operation Golf this week, when people were found to Members to pursue throughout their time in Parliament. be trafficking in central London. The Met should keep We are called to this place to pursue big issues, and such relationships going with police forces in other there can hardly be a bigger issue than this. Let me close parts of the world—in that case, for example, in Romania. with the words of Margaret Mead: The funding and the provision of resources for that unit “Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed are extremely important, because we require expertise. citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever Secondly, the UK Human Trafficking Centre was has.” moved, as the Minister knows, away from independence and into the Serious Organised Crime Agency, which 5.2 pm will now be abolished and form part of the new national Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): It is a real pleasure crime agency. I urged the Minister for Policing and to follow the hon. Member for South West Bedfordshire Criminal Justice yesterday, during a debate about policing, (Andrew Selous). He is right that this is a big issue. The to pause before the Government decide how the centre fact that it unites my right hon. Friend the Member for will sit within the national crime agency. The point Tottenham (Mr Lammy), my hon. Friend the Member about such organisations is that they have expertise for Wigan (Lisa Nandy), the hon. Members for Carshalton beyond policing and act as a centre to co-ordinate many and Wallington (Tom Brake) and for South West people and professions. It is vital that we retain such Bedfordshire and others is a real tribute to the work activity. I hope that the Minister before us will take up that Anthony Steen pioneered in his many years in the that issue with his ministerial colleague. House of Commons. My final point is about the one issue that the Committee I have been here for 23 years; others have been here raised in its most recent report, because it is still a for as long as I have while others still have been here for concern. There is no Europe-wide mechanism that brings a shorter period. What a legacy for the House and the together the origin, transition and destination countries country was Anthony Steen’s private Member’s Bill, of those who are trafficked. There is no such organisation. which had the support of hon. Members on both sides That work is done through conferences and meetings, of the House and produced the marking of anti-slavery and sometimes the European Union decides that it day. I wish that he were here. Perhaps he is—perhaps, in wants to be involved, but there needs to be a stand-alone a moment, he is going to pop in to tell us that we have organisation—a structure—to share good practice. When gone on for too long, and should hear the benefit of his someone from Moldova travels through Greece, as the expertise. I am glad that his expertise remains in this hon. Member for South West Bedfordshire said, and 585 Anti-Slavery Day14 OCTOBER 2010 Anti-Slavery Day 586

[Keith Vaz] capacity, and raises awareness with local agencies and funders. Having been rescued from their living nightmare, ends up in Amsterdam, Bedford, Leicester, Wigan or all too often only temporary help is provided to them—a wherever, they need to be tracked. That is not happening, crying shame for these often exceptionally determined but we have to ensure that those who are responsible for individuals, who rightly want to get their lives back on trafficking are prosecuted, because our record on such track and are hindered by their lack of formal education, prosecutions is pretty bad. qualifications and opportunities. I am absolutely delighted by the presence in the To tackle this, Eaves, along with partners Imperial House of so many right hon. and hon. Members. We college and the Women and Work initiative, has launched must keep debating the issue, because that is the only a scheme aimed at helping victims back into the workplace. way in which we will effect real change. HERA—Her Equality, Rights, and Autonomy—offers women from the POPPY project entrepreneurial skills and mentoring from some of the UK’s most successful 5.7 pm business women and men, and aims to give them the life Justin Tomlinson (North Swindon) (Con): Thank you, skills and confidence they need to set up their own Mr Deputy Speaker, for giving me the opportunity to businesses or get into work. In many cases, the victims speak in this crucial debate. It is a credit to the decision arrived in the UK highly educated, and through this to introduce Back-Bench business, and my hon. Friend scheme go on to further or higher education, more the Member for Wellingborough (Mr Bone) opened it often than not with an interest in human rights law, and with great distinction. 25% even go on to set up their own business. I share the concern that there are no robust estimates It was a great privilege to meet one of the founders of for the number of victims of trafficking in the UK. the scheme, Simon Stockley, who kindly set out three Having the figures for victims of trafficking is fundamental brief recent examples of where this support and training to raising awareness of the issue and ensuring that has made a real difference. First, a Russian lady has set human trafficking is given due attention by local police up a successful Russian specialist bakery. Secondly, a forces. Moreover, without accurate data, support services west African lady has set up a fashion label, designing cannot be properly planned. I therefore believe that the and making clothes. Finally, a Moldovan lady, with UK Human Trafficking Centre needs to do more in that mentoring from a senior member of Saatchi and Saatchi, area. was not only able to secure work at a large H&M store The introduction of the national referral mechanism but is now the manager. These real-life examples show in April 2009 has gone some way towards recognising just how important it is to provide these opportunities victims of trafficking. However, I am concerned that nationwide. only 361 individuals were accepted as victims of trafficking We are rightly stepping up our game to rescue victims; in the mechanism’s first year, given that the estimated let us not then fail them. We have seen that by empowering figure for such individuals is about 10 times that number. the victims and restoring their confidence, we are providing The dominance of the immigration authorities in the an opportunity to start a new life. I urge the Minister to assessment and administration of the national referral do all he can to ensure that victims have access to the mechanism is also a concern, as it emphasises the support that they require and rightly deserve. victims’ immigration status and inappropriately associates them with illegal immigration, as the hon. Member for 5.12 pm Wigan (Lisa Nandy) clearly highlighted. Michael Connarty (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (Lab): Although the exact figures for victims are not available, We should be focusing not so much on what is happening there have been six arrests for trafficking offences in in the UK as the fact that there are still 27 million Wiltshire, which includes my constituency, North Swindon. people in some form of slavery throughout the world. Human trafficking does not have borders; it is a problem We should look seriously at the heritage left behind by for the whole of the UK and it must be addressed as Anthony Steen. He was not talking about the UK; he such, as my hon. Friend the Member for South Swindon never talked about the UK. As a member of the European (Mr Buckland) said. More needs to be done to support Scrutiny Committee, he travelled around Europe urging victims of human trafficking, and I shall focus on that other Parliaments to set up similar organisations and to point. get their Governments focused on the problem, whether I have been incredibly impressed by the work of the they were in the transit countries, the departure countries homeless women’s charity, Eaves. The POPPY project or the countries where the criminal gangs organised. in London, which it runs, is invaluable in providing It is interesting to look back in history. Oddly enough, safety and support through accommodation, counselling, the story of Oliver Twist is based on factual historical legal advice and outreach programmes. It provides 50 beds records of the trafficking of Italian children who were for victims of sex trafficking and nine beds for victims scooped up in the villages and promised jobs, and then of domestic slavery, with a current occupancy rate of brought to the UK to be thieves and robbers in the 100%. I welcome the further expansion that is occurring Paddington area of London. There was never a Jewish in London, Sheffield and Cardiff. Fagin organising that—there was an Italian gangmaster However, I remain concerned about whether victims and an Italian gang. from my constituency will have access to support and This is not just something that happens locally, but, security services of that level. All too often, the victims as we have heard, it is happening locally in people’s are charged, then effectively released straight back into constituencies, and in mine—two brothels were broken the arms of the gangs rather than being treated as up, and trafficked women were found in both. Positive victims. It is therefore vital that the new national Action in Housing, based in Glasgow, does wonderful co-ordinator sets out consistent standards of care, builds work in Scotland. Many Members have spoken about 587 Anti-Slavery Day14 OCTOBER 2010 Anti-Slavery Day 588 their own local organisations that are helping people That is its greatest attraction to me—we would have a who are then released from such bondage—not just duty and responsibility to people in this country who sexual bondage, but low pay or poverty pay. A Chinese may end up being trafficked. gentleman came to see me after I spoke at the annual At the moment, young women and men affected general meeting of Positive Action in Housing. He had travel around and live in other parts of Europe. They do been moved from one Chinese restaurant to another, not necessarily always live in the UK. If they are throughout the whole of the UK, for nine and a half trafficked out of other countries by someone who is not years, and told that if he ever went to see anyone he a UK resident, at the moment we have no jurisdiction. would be sent back to China. It is going on all the time. That is a very strong argument for the directive. Sixteen children were recently rescued in London. In The hon. Member for South West Bedfordshire (Andrew Scotland, in the three months up until August, the Selous) came nearest to expressing the aspiration that newspapers reported that 18 children were found in existed when the decision to mark anti-slavery day was some sort of exploitation. voted through in the House. It is a worldwide business I urge us, as a Parliament, to look wider than we are that we must fight against. We must recognise the clear at the moment. The hon. Member for Wellingborough link with organised criminal gangs in the advanced (Mr Bone) is not completely carrying on the heritage of economies of the world, particularly in the EU states Anthony Steen if he does not focus on broadening the and those around them. We must do everything we can outlook. We should stop trying to throw a ring around to be vigilant locally. All the organisations that have the UK, and we should expand our movement outside. been mentioned deserve support, and we must try to build an anti-slavery, anti-trafficking alliance at Government Mr Bone: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely correct, and non-governmental organisation level. I hope that of course—the ring needs to be around everywhere. I the Minister, and eventually the Prime Minister, will will let him into a secret. Anthony Steen and his Human recognise that one major step will be taken if we sign up Trafficking Foundation are working with the all-party to the EU directive on human trafficking and join that group on human trafficking every week, and we intend battle properly. to set up all-party groups across the whole of Europe, as Anthony wants. 5.19 pm Stephen Phillips (Sleaford and North Hykeham) (Con): Michael Connarty: Sign me up to that. It is a real pleasure to follow the hon. Member for I wish to ask the Minister—I have never yet heard a Linlithgow and East Falkirk (Michael Connarty). We decent reply to this question, including when I wrote to sit together on the European Scrutiny Committee and the Prime Minister in September—why the Government also share a common interest in the subject of this are not clear that we need to sign up to the EU directive debate. on human trafficking. My right hon. Friend the Member This is an historic and significant debate, and it is for Leicester East (Keith Vaz) said that we need a pleasing to see that so many right hon. and hon. Members Europe-wide organisation, and that is on offer in the wish to contribute. I welcome the advent of anti-slavery directive. It is not a protocol, and it would be binding day, even though I was not in the House when the on all countries. We have sections 57 to 59 of the Sexual Anti-Slavery Day Act 2010 went through, not least Offences Act 2003, but they are not capable of dealing because it is an important tool in bringing these issues with cross-border trafficking in the EU. into the limelight and giving them the prominence that The EU directive would give us extra powers. It they deserve. The one thing that is absolutely clear from would give us not just the power but the duty to pursue the debate is that slavery is alive and well in our society any UK citizen, or anyone habitually resident in the and throughout the world. It is therefore right that the UK, who was involved in trafficking anywhere in the House discusses it. I should like to echo other hon. world, with the support of the EU. It would be our Members in paying tribute to Mr Anthony Steen, who jurisdiction, so we could do our duty by people who is a great loss to the House. It is a great shame that he were trafficked and enslaved. It would also give us the cannot be here to make his own speech today. option—it would be a power, not a compulsion—to The simple fact is that it remains unacceptable 200 years decide to pursue anyone habitually resident in the UK after Wilberforce fought so long, so admirably and so who was involved in organising people trafficking, which hard against slavery that we live in a society in which can lead to slavery, outside the UK. slavery endures. It is perhaps not the same as in his time, I give the following example quite seriously, not to but it is no less deplorable. In the 18th century, slavery diminish the terrible thing that happened to the McCann was part of a distasteful and distorted economy, and family. If Madeleine McCann were an adult young was witnessed in the full light of day. Now, as the hon. woman who had been trafficked out of Portugal by a Member for Wigan (Lisa Nandy) said, it is to a large gang of people who were not in the UK, we would not extent invisible, hidden and underground. It is a hidden have had the power to take jurisdiction. It is true that abuse of people who more often than not simply cannot we can go to Interpol. I went to Portugal during that speak up for themselves. terrible time, as the Chair of the European Scrutiny Of course, slavery surfaces from time to time. Sex Committee, and we met the policeman sent from Lisbon trafficking is the crime that most often captures the to try to pick up the pieces of the local police’s terrible media headlines, but earlier this week, Romanian children approach immediately after the loss of Madeleine McCann. who were forced into working on the streets of the We realised the police’s inadequacy, but although we capital like Fagin’s gang were rescued by Operation had liaison officers we did not have the ability to send in Golf. I pay tribute to the Metropolitan police for their the Met to do the job properly. We could have that work on that. I hope the Crown can in due course power for an adult if we signed up to the EU directive. mount successful prosecutions of those responsible. 589 Anti-Slavery Day14 OCTOBER 2010 Anti-Slavery Day 590

[Stephen Phillips] anniversary of the Haiti uprising, when enslaved workers fought for their liberty. The museum is only metres from It is worth remembering, however, that that is not an the docks that once repaired the slave ships. At the time, easy task. The women and children involved are often a Sir Peter Moores rightly remarked that we can come to long way from home. They do not speak the language terms with our past only by accepting it, and to accept it and are away from such family as they have, and the we need knowledge of what actually happened. There is authorities can seem remote and unhelpful. Getting a lesson in that about what is happening today, and I am valuable witness statements from those individuals—most pleased that the House is having this debate to bring to often, it is women and children—is very difficult, particular light important issues such as trafficking and bonded given what they have suffered. The prosecution rate for labour, which still exist in the world. such offences is woefully low. Will the Minister say what The resistance of enslaved Africans and the actions the Government intend to do about that? We have the of abolitionists in Britain ended the transatlantic slave laws, as has been said, but we do not seem to enforce trade in 1807, but in the north-west of England the them to their fullest extent. That might be a problem of cotton trade maintained links with slavery around the mechanics, but I should like to know what the Government world for many years afterwards. We need to recognise will do. our history and acknowledge that while our predecessors I also want to mention briefly, if I may, an issue as Members of Parliament abolished the trade, the alluded to by my hon. Friend the Member for North conduct of members of the public was even more East Cambridgeshire (Stephen Barclay), namely the astounding—another lesson from history for us today. plight of domestic staff working in conditions that In 1788, 100 petitions were presented to this House on amount to slavery right here in London for embassy the subject of slavery, and 2,000 people from Sheffield—or staff protected by diplomatic privilege. Unlike those on 22% of the adult population—signed one of the petitions. ordinary domestic visas, those on diplomatic domestic In 1972, 519 petitions were presented and every county visas are not permitted to change jobs. They are stuck in England was represented and stood up for enslaved in their employment and with their employer, and essentially people around the world. One in 10 of the adult population have no legal status. They do not and cannot go to the was involved—an amazing aspect of our history that police if they suffer abuse. It is about time the Government should be recognised. The overwhelming opinion was dealt with that. The House is entitled to ask why we that slavery was an utter offence to human dignity. cannot get rid of those visas and issue normal domestic When we discuss this issue, we need to reflect on what visas to those workers, which would enable them to have caused the uprising of emotion and outrage. It included the same access to help as anybody else who needs it. the testimony of freed slaves, published in this country. What is the Government’s position on that? Olaudah Equiano is probably the most famous example. I end simply by reminding the House what Wilberforce He was born in Benin and later captured and sold himself said in the House of Commons in May 1789—of several times by slave traders. Eventually, he came to course, that was not in this building. He said that this country, where he bought his way out of slavery for “the nature and all the circumstances of this trade are now laid £40. He published his autobiography in 1789 and brought open to us; we can no longer plead ignorance, we cannot evade it; to the public’s attention the horror of the middle passage. it is now an object placed before us, we can not pass it; we may I need not remind Members of the conditions of those spurn it, we may kick it out of our way, but we cannot turn aside voyages on which people could be thrown overboard so as to avoid seeing it; for it is brought now so directly before our eyes that this House must decide, and must justify to all the world, with little regard for their safety. The eyes of the British and to their own consciences, the rectitude of the grounds and people were opened to the reality of slavery and they principles of their decision.”—[Parliamentary History,12May would not stand for it. That shows us about the morality 1789; Vol. XXVIII, c. 63.] that we all share. We care about each other and cannot We are simply debating anti-slavery day today, but the stand by when others face pain and indignity. That is decision for the future is whether we are prepared to what makes change happen—human compassion and continue to accept situations of slavery which pertain to knowledge about what goes on. our society some 200 years after Wilberforce and his Today has been important because we have reaffirmed colleagues successfully fought the battle to end slavery our commitment as parliamentarians not to stand by in in this country. the face of human indignity. The POPPY project and its important work have already been mentioned. It has 5.24 pm helped 700 women so far and we need to support its work. I look forward to the Minister’s remarks on how Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab): It is a pleasure we can ensure that the victims of trafficking in this to follow the hon. and learned Member for Sleaford and country are treated with the utmost respect and care, North Hykeham (Stephen Phillips), who introduced the and enabled to find a way out. historical context of the debate. I listened carefully to other hon. Members speak about the current situation, The historical context of the debate is important. We which is vital, but I want to say more about the historical need to enliven public outrage and think globally. As context. some people said at the time, and as we know now, charity and compassion do not begin at home. No I am from Merseyside. Members may be aware that matter where human indignity exists, it is everyone’s Liverpool was at one time described as the slavery responsibility to promote action to change it. capital of the world. No one associated with the city has any pride in that, but it must be acknowledged. Ships out of Liverpool carried about 1.5 million enslaved 5.30 pm Africans on some 5,000 slave ship voyages. In 2007, I Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con): I am pleased to was proud that National Museums Liverpool opened follow the hon. Member for Wirral South (Alison the international slavery museum on 23 August, the McGovern), who made an important point about the 591 Anti-Slavery Day14 OCTOBER 2010 Anti-Slavery Day 592 anger and determination of people 200 years ago to do Neil Carmichael: I absolutely agree with my hon. something about slavery, and about how we need a Friend the Member for—Enfield? similar fury now about the outrages we are aware of here. Funnily enough, my constituency played a major Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab): Ealing—always part in the abolition of slavery in so far as one of my Ealing! predecessors promoted legislation to abolish it in the 1830s, and an archway was erected to celebrate the end Neil Carmichael: Oh, yes, and I know where the hon. of slavery—it is one of the few such archways still Gentleman comes from too. remaining. The sad thing is that it celebrates the end of I shall finish with this point. None of us in this House something that has not quite ended, and we need to can be confident of our own dignity while others are bear that in mind in this very important debate. We entrapped or enslaved and therefore do not have theirs. need to excite that sense of fury and anger about slavery. Several hon. Members rose— I want to make several points. The first is that we have to get a measure of the problem, and my hon. Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. The Friend the Member for South West Bedfordshire (Andrew wind-ups will begin at 5.38 pm. Selous) did exactly that. The fact that 27 million people across the globe are in slavery is simply outrageous. We cannot tolerate it. 5.35 pm My second point is about the importance of border Margot James (Stourbridge) (Con): Before I was control. I hope that the Minister will highlight how that elected to this place, I was vice-chairman of my party will be strengthened. It is critical that we tackle border for women. In that capacity I worked quite closely with control issues, and it is very important that we deliver the POPPY project, and also with the Eaves housing meaningful results. group, of which many Members have spoken highly. I The Chairman of the Home Affairs Select Committee, echo those views, and would like to pay a special tribute the right hon. Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz), to one of its founders, Denise Marshall. She has worked put his finger on an important point. It is not just that on the issue unstintingly over many years, going to they have come here that matters; where they came from places that I would not dare go myself, on behalf of the and how they got here also matter. That international cause. Indeed, she has been awarded a CBE for her dimension needs a focus too, because we cannot just sit efforts. I would like to share a few of the learnings that I here on an island and say, “We’re doing okay. How have picked up from Denise and her colleagues on this about the rest of you?” We need to take an international terrible problem, and to compliment everybody involved attitude. At the end of the day, as recipients of the in getting anti-slavery day on to the statute book. It is so problem, even if we deal with specific cases more important that we have these hooks to remind the satisfactorily, a threat will still remain, because people general public and all the law enforcement agencies of will still be trafficking from other places. We therefore the terrible problem that still blights our country. need to use our influence to tackle the source of the Many Members have spoken about the international problem and those who traffic. dimension. I would like to mention another dimension. That brings me to the EU directive against trafficking Tragically, trafficking is not confined to a cross-border mentioned by several people today. As I understand it, business. I am afraid that I hear increasing numbers of we will be reviewing our position once that directive is examples of intra-country trafficking. I should remind confirmed. Furthermore, of course, we are signatories Members that children, and in particular young girls, to the Council of Europe convention on action against who are residents of care homes in their constituencies trafficking, which is robust in its attitude. However, I are particularly vulnerable to the ruthless and evil people hope that the Minister will look carefully at the EU who try to get them out of that home environment, so directive, because if we are serious about taking action, that they can be trafficked to another part of the UK we need to consider its impact. where they will be more difficult to identify and put to I want to talk about the rule of law. A lot of people work in the evil, forced sex trade. have talked about the legislation and measures already Another matter that I would like to pick up on was in place. Yes, they probably are, and we may need to raised by the right hon. Member for Leicester East strengthen some of them, but in this case the rule of law (Keith Vaz). He talked about the need for expertise in is being flagrantly abused by many. It is, therefore, a the enforcement agencies and the concerns of some question of enforcement as well. We have to get the Members, on both sides of the House, about the dilution question of enforcement right, because, at the end of of some of our specialist policing forces. As he said, the day, a country such as ours should be able to pack a there is undoubtedly a need for concentrations of expertise. punch in that respect. That is most important. However, no matter how much Angie Bray (Ealing Central and Acton) (Con): Does expertise we can afford to fund, there will never be my hon. Friend agree that we should applaud an initiative enough. There will always be a need for good, solid by the Metropolitan police to press for legislation that training of the wider police and of enforcement agency would allow editors who continue to publish sex adverts staff and personnel. As hon. Members have said, we are that can then be linked to trafficking to be arrested and talking about a problem that can arise in any of the tried in court? Does he agree with the words of the constituencies that we represent. Nowhere is safe, so we deputy Mayor for London responsible for policing? He need to ensure that all the police are trained, and not said: just the specialist forces. “We don’t allow drug dealers to advertise in newspapers so why should we allow traffickers to advertise prostitution?” Several hon. Members rose— 593 Anti-Slavery Day14 OCTOBER 2010 Anti-Slavery Day 594

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order. I am sorry that not every are unaware that they are being trafficked when they Member could get in, but that shows the interest in the cross the border. At that point, the trafficking experience subject matter of this debate. has not kicked in. We need all-through expertise in order to police the issue properly. I am deeply concerned 5.38 pm that we are about to see a cut in the number of police officers, and, without these centres of expertise, we Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab): I know that Members might find ourselves policing the problem much less will forgive me if I do not respond or refer to every effectively. contribution, but what is striking about this debate—a debate that I am rather proud to have provoked from I urge the Minister to make another commitment, the Back Benches, and which I am now responding to which involves one of the requirements of the EU from the Front Bench—is the extent of concern and the directive. We need to lead the training of police officers shared views across those on all Benches. Ten months in the policing of this issue. We know that, in the best after he introduced his Bill—now the Anti-Slavery Day forces, where there is effective collaboration between the Act 2010—I think that Anthony Steen would be proud police and social services, we can make a real difference that we are about to celebrate anti-slavery day. That on this issue. If there were a proper cascading of policy must be some kind of record for implementing a policy. and information, so that every police organisation could be at the level of the best, we could make better progress I want to focus on an issue that Members on both on this matter. I hope that the Minister will tell us that sides of the House have raised, which is the EU directive. that is going to happen. The Minister has said that the Government’s position on the matter will be reviewed, and I am grateful for The hon. Member for North Swindon (Justin Tomlinson) that. I hope that he will forgive me for being boring told the House that the national referral mechanism about this subject—for continuing to persist with was overloaded. I heard from Kalayaan just two days it—because he will recall that his party did exactly the ago how often it has to hesitate before referring someone same in opposition. Indeed, I recall the Prime Minister— to the national referral mechanism because to do so then the Leader of the Opposition—claiming credit in would be too burdensome, because its client would not March 2007 for the Government’s signing of the convention, be guaranteed advocacy, or because the bureaucracy when he asked a question about it across this Dispatch involved would add to the stress being experienced by Box and the then Prime Minister, Tony Blair, said, as I an already-stressed person. We need to ensure that the recall, “We’re doing it on Friday.” The argument that he UK Border Agency’s domination of the processes is made at that time still holds: this is an international squeezed out, as the hon. Gentleman rightly suggested, problem, and we need the best possible international and that we use the voices of the voluntary sector and collaboration between the countries that create movements of those people who have advocated on behalf of trafficked of people across borders and those that receive them. I women and children. Of course, it is overwhelmingly hope that the review will be concluded speedily, and women and children—people who are already vulnerable— that we will opt into the directive. Members have made who are the victims of this vile trade. We should therefore the need for that clear today. My hon. Friend the use this expertise to protect women and children. Member for Wigan (Lisa Nandy) also explained in very I hope that the Minister will also be able to assure us human terms why we cannot possibly opt out of providing about prosecution policy—that there will be more guardians for children. prosecutions for trafficking crime, that they will be My next concern is about policing. There is a risk that effectively conducted and that specialist prosecutors centres of expertise, such as the one that the hon. Member who understand the experience of the vulnerable people for Stourbridge (Margot James) has just mentioned, could who have been trafficked will be used. I would like the become diluted by being merged with other institutions. Minister to inform us whether the offence of paying for I recall the words of the hon. Member for Ashford sex with someone who has been subject to exploitation (Damian Green), when he was the Opposition spokesman, is being effectively prosecuted, as I am anxious that it is in the debate on Anthony Steen’s Bill. He said: not. Will he also tell us how many prosecutions are happening, as they provide an important mechanism to “The existence of one central point of information on trafficking has clearly been valuable to police forces, the Crown Prosecution prevent trafficking by reducing the demand for it? Service and other agencies.”—[Official Report, 5 February 2010; After all, Anthony Steen passed his Bill and we are Vol. 505, c. 555.] marking anti-slavery day because we want slavery and He was talking about the UK Human Trafficking Centre, trafficking to come to an end. We have talked about and told the House how such centres of excellence ways of prosecuting those engaged in this vile trade and improved the quality of policing. I am worried that we we have talked about ways of protecting the victims, but now risk losing some of that specialist focus. We began what we really need to do is to prevent it. To achieve to sense that risk when the UKHTC was merged with that, we need effective international collaboration and the Serious Organised Crime Agency, and further mergers effective international policing, and we need to ensure into the proposed national crime agency and a move to that the people who have been trafficked are not trafficked elsewhere in the country will mean that it will continue again. to exist. The widely respected director of the Child One of the most horrific things about the victims is Exploitation and Online Protection Centre, Jim Gamble, how vulnerable they are to being re-trafficked. Many told the Home Affairs Committee recently that he believed trafficked people, after they have been rescued, are he would be “fighting for airtime” in a national crime re-trafficked. We know, for example, that trafficked agency. children brought into this country to work in cannabis We need to focus on how we can improve the policing farms—we have heard something about that experience of human trafficking. It is not enough to depend on a today—who are taken into local authority care usually, specialist border force, because many trafficked people and I mean usually, disappear within weeks or months 595 Anti-Slavery Day14 OCTOBER 2010 Anti-Slavery Day 596 into the hands of their traffickers. If they are rescued Jeremy Lefroy: I am most grateful to the Minister. again, they disappear again. It is unacceptable—and I Will he also acknowledge the voluntary groups that believe every Member of this House believes it is exist in the countries from which many people are unacceptable—for that to continue to occur. trafficked? This week we have had the honour of a visit I believe that the European directive provides a quite by Joseph D’souza of the Dalit Freedom Network, who powerful mechanism that can be used to help in those will be in my constituency tonight. The network does circumstances by providing each child with a guardian. tremendous work in India. I want the Minister to sign up to the directive and I Damian Green: My hon. Friend has made a very hope that he is going to tell us that he is taking steps to good point. There are voluntary groups all over the do so. If he does not sign up to it, however, the least he world. can do is to ensure that he really does what I am sure the Prime Minister believed we were really doing, which is At the beginning of the debate, my hon. Friend the doing everything in that directive. Member for Wellingborough (Mr Bone) said that prevention was essentially better than cure. In the short time available I have been a Home Office Minister and, frankly, I to me, I want to inform the House of the future direction know that Home Office officials have form in telling of trafficking policy. Ministers, “We are already doing that, Minister.” I believe that this Minister might have the guts to say to We all agree that trafficking is an appalling crime those officials, “Actually, show me how. Here is the which treats people as commodities and exploits them provision in the directive; show me precisely how it for criminal gain. Combating human trafficking is a works. If you cannot show me precisely how, let us priority for the Government; what we have been discussing implement a policy to do it.” I am scared that, with the today is how it can best be achieved. We are seeking to cuts in policing and other expenditure cuts, even the improve the United Kingdom’s response to the wider protection that we are currently able to offer women threat from organised crime, which includes trafficking. and children will be watered down. I hope, however, The Government’s consultation paper “Policing in the that this Minister will not let that happen. 21st century” sets out our intention to produce a new strategy on organised crime, as well as referring to the 5.49 pm creation of a national crime agency to make the fight The Minister for Immigration (Damian Green): I thank against organised crime more effective. We therefore the Backbench Business Committee and, indeed, the have an opportunity to ensure that there is specific hon. Member for Slough (Fiona Mactaggart). She instituted consideration of the challenges involved in fighting the debate from the Back Benches, as she said, but she human trafficking. was miraculously and rightly transformed to the Front The Government intend to produce a new strategy on Bench before this debate, so she can now reply on behalf combating human trafficking, which will take up many of the Opposition. In listening to this debate, I have of the points raised in the debate. I am sorry that I do been struck not only by how passionate, but by how not have time to deal with each point individually. The erudite many speeches have been. There is a huge amount new strategy will be aligned with and published alongside of expertise in the House on this vital issue, as Members the strategy on organised crime. It will reiterate the of all parties have said, and I will certainly take that Government’s intention to take a comprehensive approach away with me as we contemplate future policy. to combating trafficking, both by combating the traffickers We are here because, although the first anti-slavery and by looking after the victims. It will mark a greater day fell on 18 October, the Government have decided to focus on combating the organised crime groups behind align Britain’s anti-slavery day with the existing EU the trade. I agree with the Chairman of the Select anti-slavery day, partly as a reminder of the need for Committee that an end-to-end approach is necessary. international co-ordination in this regard—a point made The new strategy has four main components. It will by the Chairman of the Select Committee, the right enhance our ability to act early, before the harm has hon. Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz) and many reached the UK; there will be smarter, multi-agency other Members in all parts of the House. I am sure that action at our border; there will be more co-ordination Anthony Steen would approve of our alignment with of our policing effort inside Britain; and victim care the EU in this context, although I am less sure that his arrangements will be improved. Let me deal with those successor as chairman of the all-party group would be components in turn. quite as enthusiastic. Human trafficking is obviously a cross-border crime, Anyone outside the House who is listening to the and our earliest opportunity to counter the threat is debate or will read the report in Hansard may be led to therefore in the source countries and the transit regions. believe that Anthony Steen is no longer with us. I am By intervening early, we can prevent harm from being happy to assure everyone that he was e-mailing me this done to people and reduce the impact here in the UK. morning, and I hope to see him somewhere on Monday As many Members have pointed out, interventions abroad so that we can jointly celebrate anti-slavery day. can appear far removed from a flat or a brothel somewhere in a British city or small town—or, indeed, in a factory The day will provide a focus for not just the work of or farm where people are exploited for labour services—but Government, but—this is important—the contribution we know that early intervention produces results. For of the many voluntary-sector groups that raise awareness example, a three-year trafficking investigation by the and deal with the practical consequences of this of this Serious Organised Crime Agency and Lithuanian police, terrible crime. which concluded in 2008, led to the dismantling of six Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con): Will the Minister crime groups in the UK, prison sentences totalling give way? 145 years for 17 people in the UK and Lithuania, and the recovery of 32 victims. That is the kind of action Damian Green: I will give way once, but that will be it. that is needed all over the world. 597 Anti-Slavery Day14 OCTOBER 2010 Anti-Slavery Day 598

[Damian Green] The fourth step is victim care, which is very important. As I have said, we want to have a greater focus on What we are proposing is to bring together our enforcement, but our aim is to prevent harm being done political and diplomatic activities along with our to people. Trafficking is a covert crime and the victims enforcement efforts. We want to ensure they share common are often unaware that they are being trafficked until it objectives, focused on places where criminal operations is too late. When that happens, we need to ensure that are based. That will be done in partnership with the we have the right arrangements in place to meet the care source countries. We will therefore look at the full range needs of victims. That will remain central to our approach. of interventions open to us. Through political and The Government are committed to ensuring that the diplomatic dialogue, we will build political will to combat UK meets its obligations to victims as set out under the trafficking and translate that into initiatives on the Council of Europe convention on trafficking, which ground in other countries. We will protect potential was signed a few years ago. More than 700 potential victims by intercepting the traffickers before their activities victims were referred in the first year after the convention impact on the UK. That is the first step. was implemented, which is a significant achievement. The second step is at our border, which is the next line We are committed to improving our response. We also of defence against traffickers. As many Members have plan to introduce a more effective system of victim care said, combating trafficking at the border is difficult, not that takes better account of the needs of individual least because victims will often be unaware of the victims and ensures that each identified victim receives traffickers’ real intentions. Increased vigilance and more an appropriate level of support. We will announce effective deterrence and interceptions are key. This will further details of these proposals shortly. I should add be one of the tasks of the national crime agency and its that many practical suggestions were made during the border police command. We want to embed that thought course of the debate, which I will take up and feed into inside the new BPC in order to enhance our response at the process. our borders. We will also look at how we can build on Of course, the comprehensive spending review will be the success of the multi-agency child safeguarding and announced next week. As we have already made clear in investigation teams at some of the UK’s ports, and we relation to the NCA, we will make sure that more law will continue to roll out the e-Borders programme. That enforcement activity is undertaken against more organised captures passenger and crew movements into and out of criminals and at reduced cost. To achieve that, we will the UK and can be used to identify and intercept those prioritise resources by targeting the most serious criminals suspected of a number of offences including trafficking. and being more joined-up, particularly in our activities The third step is inside the UK. Our domestic law overseas; we often have different agencies operating in enforcement response to trafficking will remain a vital foreign capitals and other large cities who do not work part of our overall enforcement efforts. Significant progress together as effectively as they should. has been made in raising awareness of trafficking and The European directive has been a dominant theme the capability to combat it among police forces through in many Members’ contributions. The draft directive enforcement operations and mandatory training on does not contain any operational co-operation measures trafficking for all new police officers. That is a step from which we think we would benefit. It will improve forward. The UK Human Trafficking Centre is an the way in which some other EU states combat trafficking, important resource in helping police forces by offering but it would make little difference to the way we combat tactical advice, co-ordination and intelligence. Through it. As I have said however, the directive is not yet the new strategy we will ensure that there is more finalised so if we conclude later that it would help us effective strategic co-ordination of our existing efforts fight human trafficking, we can opt in then. and that that leads to more targeted enforcement action In conclusion, we will re-focus our efforts and make on the ground. What that means in practice is that there sure that this country maintains its reputation as a needs to be clarity about the roles and responsibilities of world leader in trying to end the disgusting and unacceptable police forces in combating human trafficking on the survival of slavery in the modern world. streets of Britain and better co-ordination, for example through tools like the control strategy on organised crime, which provides a framework for action by law 6pm enforcement agencies. Motion lapsed (Standing Order No. 9(3)). 599 14 OCTOBER 2010 East Coast Inshore Fishing Fleet 600

East Coast Inshore Fishing Fleet Sheryll Murray (South East Cornwall) (Con): Does my hon. Friend agree that the Minister has inherited a Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House disastrous problem with the under-10 metre quota? The do now adjourn.—(Jeremy Wright.) previous Labour Government introduced fixed quota allocations, pinned the under-10 metre quota to a grossly 6pm underestimated figure and then failed to address the situation when it came to light with the registration of Peter Aldous (Waveney) (Con): I am grateful to you, buyers and sellers. Our Minister has inherited a problem Mr Deputy Speaker, for giving me the opportunity to arising from the inaction of the Labour party when it debate the future of the east coast inshore fishing fleet. was in government. This matter is of great importance, both to the fishing fleet in Lowestoft, in my constituency, and to other Peter Aldous: I thank my hon. Friend for that ports along the east coast and elsewhere in Britain. intervention, and I agree that the Minister has inherited Although there is much wrong with the way in which an unenviable problem. There is a common perception the industry is governed today, I shall say from the that all fishermen have overfished the sea and are now outset that I exempt from any criticism the Under-Secretary reaping their own whirlwind. However, it is important of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, my to distinguish between deep sea trawlers and the inshore hon. Friend the Member for Newbury (Richard Benyon), fleet, which fishes sustainably with long lines. who is responsible for the natural environment and fisheries. The quota system, which is meant to conserve fish stocks, has spawned the obscene practice of discards. As a shadow Minister and now as a Minister, my Fishermen go out to sea and once they have reached hon. Friend has spent a great deal of time travelling their quota they throw back perfectly healthy fish that around the coast, meeting and listening to fishermen, they cannot land owing to the threat of criminal prosecution hearing at first hand their worries and subsequently hanging over their heads. A Lowestoft fisherman has doing what he can to address their concerns. That told me how only two weeks ago in five days he had to includes obtaining additional sole quota in August when throw back dead 1,300 kg of skate; eight other similar the east coast fleet had no fish to catch. Last month, he sized boats have probably been forced to do the same. and I met Lowestoft fishermen and discussed with them That makes 11,700 kg of dead skate thrown back into the problems that they face, and he subsequently came the sea in just five days—11.5 tonnes in one fishery. back with considerable speed to arrange for a delegation When one takes into account the fact that this is happening of fishermen from Lowestoft to meet him in Whitehall all around the British coast, one realises that the waste, in December to discuss their plight more fully. destruction and pouring of money into the sea is Much of Lowestoft, as it stands today, was built on mindboggling. In that fisherman’s own words, the system the back of the fishing industry. As well as a substantial not only stops him making a living and making long-term deep sea fleet, a network of supporting industries grew business investment plans but is decimating a national up, including shipbuilding, net and rope manufacturing resource. If he was allowed to land just 20% of his and processing factories. Ross Foods has long since discards, he could cover his expenses instead of operating gone, though Birds Eye remains as an important employer, at a substantial loss. despite no longer processing fish from its factory in the The final problem that we face is that quota has town. The railway used to run into the fish market, and become a tradeable commodity, with legal entitlement. fish sold in the morning was on London dinner tables in It is often owned by faceless investors, known as slipper the evening. “Fresh fish from Lowestoft” was and still is skippers, who have no connection with the fishing industry an evocative cry, although sometimes today it rings and who lease the quota to fishermen at a substantial hollow because the fishing industry is much diminished profit. That should be contrasted with the sugar beet and is facing a fight for its very survival. Most of the regime, where ownership of quota remains with British deep sea trawlers have long gone, as have all but one of Sugar, which makes it available to individual farmers the shipyards and many of the supporting industries. both large and small. However, an inshore fleet remains, which, with the right policy framework, can not only survive, but flourish. The problems have created a frankly ridiculous and unsustainable situation. As I mentioned earlier, most of I am conscious that time is short, Mr Deputy Speaker, the deep sea-trawlers have left Lowestoft. However they so I shall set out the problems that the fleet faces, not still operate and fish the same grounds, although, as the only in Lowestoft but along the east coast, and conclude quota was sold to a Belgian, the boats are now based in with a few thoughts on how a sustainable and financially Belgium. Now and then the boats come to rest in viable long-term future can be secured. Lowestoft, where the catch is unloaded and driven by Inshore fishermen face five problems. First, the common lorry to Belgium or Holland. Much of it is then bought fisheries policy is over-centralised and fails to respond by Lowestoft-based processors and driven or flown to local needs. It is too cumbersome, unwieldy and back. centralised, and the forthcoming review in 2012 provides That is the position in which the inshore fishing fleet an opportunity to address the problem. finds itself today. If the regime remains unchanged, the Secondly, the regime palpably fails to achieve its fleet, both in Lowestoft and elsewhere around the UK prime objective of conserving fish stocks and causes coast, will cease to exist. It is important to remember untold damage to the marine environment. Young fish that just as farmers are the guardians of the land, are caught before they mature and there are inadequate fishermen are the custodians of the sea. None of them incentives for the long-term management of stocks. wishes to be aboard the vessel that catches the last fish. Thirdly, the British under-10 metre fleet gets a raw deal, They all have an interest in creating and managing despite making up 85% of the British fishing fleet. sustainable fisheries. 601 East Coast Inshore Fishing Fleet14 OCTOBER 2010 East Coast Inshore Fishing Fleet 602

[Peter Aldous] Commissioner Maria Damanaki, which were reported in today’s Financial Times, provide encouragement that There is a solution, there is a way forward and there is the seriousness of the situation is now appreciated. a better way of running the industry. I do not have the The Sam Cole Food Group, fourth-generation Lowestoft answers and nor do the bureaucrats or officials, but I fish merchants, has recently made a bold decision and know the people who do: the fishermen, the scientists invested £2.5 million in a new processing factory. We and the others who work in the industry. owe it to those fish merchants and all those working in Let me set out five ways in which the situation can be the fishing industry in Lowestoft and elsewhere around improved. They are based on proposals made by the the British coast to do all that we can to reverse 30 years WWF and those running the east sea fisheries district. of decline in an industry that is at the heart of this First, there must be a move from the current top-down island nation. I personally will not sit back and rest micro-management. The EU’s role should be to set until a fishing regime that has almost destroyed the high-level objectives. The Commission should not get Lowestoft fishing industry is itself discarded and thrown involved in the day-to-day management of fisheries overboard. around such a large and diverse continent. That takes me to my second point: the day-to-day 6.12 pm management should be carried out locally by fishermen, scientists such as CEFAS—the Centre for Environment, Laura Sandys (South Thanet) (Con): My hon. Friend Fisheries and Aquaculture Science, which has its the Member for Waveney (Peter Aldous) has made an headquarters in Lowestoft—and representatives from excellent speech and his five key points were precise. I the Marine Management Organisation and the Department have little to add, other than my constituency interest for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs. These are the and that of the neighbouring constituency, Canterbury, people who know the fisheries best. Such an approach, which includes Whitstable. with management decisions being taken by those who In the past couple of months, the Minister and the are involved in each specific fishery, is very much the big Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs society in action. It involves politicians getting out of have bent over backwards to assist us in resolving the the way, departing the scene and leaving those who quota problem that we experienced this summer, and I know best to run their own industry. thank them for their work. However, we are approaching Thirdly, the quota system should be relaxed and the end of this year, when we will start the new allocation replaced with a maximum hours-at-sea means of of quota for next year. I know that the Minister will maintaining fish stocks and controlling fishing. That assist us again, but that situation reveals the byzantine, will eliminate discards with fishing hours being varied unworkable system with which the fishermen, the over a year to take account of the level of stocks and Department and the authorities must work. weather conditions. If necessary, fisheries can be closed We all realise that the big prize is the reform of the when stocks run low. common fisheries policy. On the inshore fleet, my local Fourthly, it is important to use science in the future fishermen and I believe that some important measures management of fisheries, both monitoring the amount need to be considered. If we can reopen the issue of of fish caught and recording fishing activity. For example, controlling effort and examine technical measures rather a vessel monitoring system—a VMS—could be fitted to than more prescriptive forms of management of our all vessels that would provide detailed information on fisheries, my fishermen and many others along the east the state and seasonality of individual fisheries. That coast will be extremely grateful. will help provide better information to assist in marine planning decisions, not only on fishing but on wind 6.13 pm farms, dredging and marine conservation zones. Sheryll Murray (South East Cornwall) (Con): I rise Finally, I am mindful of the fact that today the North to declare an interest, because I have spoken in this sea is an increasingly crowded place. As well as fishing debate. I am the wife of a trawler owner. My husband’s grounds, there are shipping lanes, dredging areas and trawler bears the registration “LT1”, which was originally wind farms. The latter have an important role to play in from the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member Lowestoft’s future, but more about that on another day. for Waveney (Peter Aldous). My husband owns one of It is important that the marine environment is managed the vessels that has been displaced from Lowestoft, so I sustainably and responsibly. The Marine and Coastal have seen how the port has declined over a number of Access Act 2009 provides a framework for that, although years. it is important that decision making takes place locally, that all interested parties are involved and that decisions are made promptly with the benefit of all the facts that 6.14 pm science can provide. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for At the current time, the outlook for the fishing industry Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon): in Lowestoft and along the east coast does not appear Let me start by congratulating my hon. Friend the bright. In the past, however, Lowestoft has adapted to Member for Waveney (Peter Aldous) on securing this change and has bounced back. The challenge that politicians welcome debate on the future of the under-10 metre across Europe must address as a matter of the highest fishing fleet. He represents his fishing fleet extremely priority is to provide a proper policy framework in well and is an assiduous lobbyer on its behalf, so it is which the inshore fleet can rejuvenate itself and move lucky to have him. That is also the case for my hon. forward, providing a fair living for all those working in Friends the Members for South Thanet (Laura Sandys) it. The comments of Maritime Affairs and Fisheries and for South East Cornwall (Sheryll Murray), and for 603 East Coast Inshore Fishing Fleet14 OCTOBER 2010 East Coast Inshore Fishing Fleet 604 many other, often new, Members, who have taken on environmental, economic and social impacts of the board the needs of and the problems facing their fishing inshore fleet, is feeding into the SAIF project, which communities with commendable spirit. aims to consult on proposals for reform in the new year. I have made no secret of the fact that the issues facing Any changes to the way in which our fisheries are this part of the fleet are particularly challenging, as has managed both inshore and offshore will be more effective been discussed tonight. I am personally committed to if they are implemented across the UK, and we are improving fisheries management for the inshore fleet, working with our colleagues in the devolved Administrations but that will require difficult decisions and have implications to share ideas and disseminate best practice. The SAIF for all parts of the industry. It is therefore crucial that work is also crucial in developing our negotiating position we all work together as part of the big society, as my on reform of the common fisheries policy, helping to hon. Friend the Member for Waveney said, to develop crystallise our thinking in relation to more localised effective and practical solutions. management, self-regulation, differentiated management My hon. Friend mentioned Sam Cole, the fish merchant regimes, rights-based management and safeguarding in his constituency, whom I have visited twice now the potential benefits of the small-scale fleet. CFP thanks to his good offices. I have been struck by an reform will play a crucial role in setting the framework important statistic that has stayed with me as I have for sustainable fishing, but there is much that we can do gone around the coast in this job: of the fish that Sam within our existing system, and we are taking action Cole’s father or grandfather—whoever started that now. business—sold, 90% used to be landed in Lowestoft My hon. Friend mentioned discards, which are a and 10% used to be bought in, but those percentages are waste of natural resources. They are as much an affront now precisely the reverse, and that has changed in a to fishermen as they are to consumers. In fact, they are very few years. I am delighted that he is investing in the probably more of an affront to fishermen, who, in a town and in this important industry, and I wish him and hungry world, have to carry out the hideous task of his fellow traders in the port well. I hope that there will throwing perfectly edible fish back into the sea, dead, still be a fleet there to represent at least part of what he never to be eaten by any human being. That is a seeks to sell. ridiculous product of a failed and bankrupted system, and a real example of why we have to change the There are two strands to this subject: what we need to common fisheries policy. I am committed to minimising do now, which is to provide some relief to the immediate discards. I say so with regret, because I want to eliminate issues, and what we need to do in the long term, which is them, but I recognise that although we must set our to move the whole fleet, around the coast, towards a sights high, in the short term we must be realistic and more sustainable future. In the current economic climate seek to minimise discards. I shall therefore push strongly and with the downbeat prognosis for quota allocations to bring about those changes to the CFP which in time in the coming year, all sectors of the UK fleet are will achieve that aim. finding things difficult, and things are likely to get tougher in the short term. I shall not hide from that Within the UK we have already made great progress fact. I will go to the December Council negotiations in demonstrating the potential to reduce discards through with the aim of securing the best deal for the whole UK more selective gears and fishing methods. The current fleet, but it is unlikely that the quota allocations will be catch quota project aims to pilot an alternative management higher than last year’s. However, I believe that we can system based on catch rather than landings quotas, take further steps together towards maximising the thereby removing the need for excessive regulation and potential wealth from this quota, as has been demonstrated bureaucracy. It puts the responsibility on fishermen to by the recent success in securing additional quota for use their knowledge and skills to fish more selectively to the under-10 metre fleet by collaborative working between optimise the value of their catch. I hope that as the the Marine Management Organisation and producer project progresses, we will be able to build on that and organisations. I shall continue to push for more of that. involve more parts of the fleet. The new Fishing for the I am grateful to hon. Members who have mentioned Market project is also looking at how we can maximise this, and I pay tribute to the new MMO, which has the wealth from all, and often discarded, parts of the worked extremely hard with hon. Members and fishermen catch. to ensure that the fisheries could stay open this summer. The low-cost vessel monitoring project involves scientists It is imperative that while trying to provide short-term and fishermen working together to improve data collection. relief, we continue to focus on the future. I have been That is important, too, because since shadowing this delighted with the progress that has been made towards job and now doing it I have discovered that around our long-term goal of a socially, environmentally and many parts of our coast there is a gulf in understanding economically sustainable inshore fleet in the relatively between fishermen and scientists. There is good practice, short time that I have been in my post. The sustainable much of it in the south-west, but elsewhere, too, where access to inshore fisheries, or SAIF,project was established scientists and fishermen now work closely, and I want by the last Government to help to achieve that goal, and to encourage that in any way I can. I have built on the work that they set in train. I welcome The introduction of inshore fisheries and conservation the recommendations that were recently made by the authorities will strengthen the local management of advisory group, which has not shied away from addressing fisheries, based on greater self-determination by those the big questions. I have been particularly impressed by who make a living from the sea. We want to ensure that the willingness shown by the inshore and offshore sectors fishermen are well represented on those authorities. The in coming together to discuss a range of issues relating strategy developed in the SAIF project will provide the to the reform of inshore fisheries management in an basis for a more sustainable fleet, enabling solutions so informal working group. That valuable insight from those other issues are addressed. Reform of fisheries industry, along with extensive research into the management must empower fishermen and their local 605 East Coast Inshore Fishing Fleet14 OCTOBER 2010 East Coast Inshore Fishing Fleet 606

[Richard Benyon] for raising this important issue. I welcome his enthusiasm for supporting his local fishing industry. I note his five communities to take control of their destinies. We need solutions; they have been listened to and they will be to move away from arbitrary divisions within the industry reflected on as we progress. to a more unified system where more local needs can be I am delighted to be able to end on a positive note reflected. with congratulations to my hon. Friend and to his Some of the themes being discussed in the CFP neighbouring MP, my hon. Friend the Member for reform can have a real impact, and they include rights-based Suffolk Coastal (Dr Coffey), who have worked hard to management and regionalisation. I know that uncertainty help to achieve and secure a £1.2 million grant from breeds fear in an industry that has suffered greatly over England’s European fisheries fund to support a major the years, but as we develop our thoughts, in consultation development at the Southwold port. I understand that at every stage with the inshore fleet and the fleet around it is not specifically in his constituency, but in the same the whole of the UK, I hope that a degree of trust— fisheries area. I want to encourage and applaud that something that has been absent for too long—can be kind of working together of colleagues in this House, built, together with the real belief that we can turn a pushing for projects that give a sustainable future for corner and make a real difference to the livelihoods of their industries. I hope that by working together we can small coastal fleets, such as the Lowestoft fleet in my secure a future that will see developments that benefit hon. Friend’s constituency, and those elsewhere. fishermen for generations to come. Places such as Lowestoft have a strong fishing tradition Question put and agreed to. and strong community support for the industry. They are already building the foundations needed to thrive 6.25 pm under a reformed system. I again thank my hon. Friend House adjourned. 149WH 14 OCTOBER 2010 Banking in Scotland 150WH

alternative vote and the changing of boundaries, we Westminster Hall restricted ourselves to seeking advice and information from people on the aspects of the matter affecting Scotland alone, so, in the present case, we have sought Thursday 14 October 2010 not to duplicate the work of the Treasury Committee, but to restrict ourselves to considering those aspects that impinge on Scotland. We have looked, therefore, at [MR ANDREW ROSINDELL in the Chair] the impact on Scotland in the context of the banking crisis. Banking in Scotland I want to start by setting the report in the context of [Relevant documents: Second Report from the Scottish the banking crisis, a year or so ago. We would all, I Affairs Committee Session 2009-10 HC 70-1 and the think, accept that many of our economic difficulties Government response Cm 7902.] now flow from the banking crisis. I remember Alex Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting Salmond, as First Minister in Scotland, condemning be now adjourned.—(Stephen Crabb.) the “spivs and speculators” who at that time were bringing down the Royal Bank of Scotland; unfortunately, 2.30 pm he was not prepared to concede that the spivs and speculators involved were working for the bank at the Mr Ian Davidson (Glasgow South West) (Lab/Co-op): time. I think that he was looking at the crisis that It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, engulfed the Scottish banks as being of external origin, Mr Rosindell. Before the sitting, you set me the task of rather than having been to a great extent home-grown seeing whether I could mention Bermuda at some point in those banks. in my speech. I am not sure how I shall manage that, Those who brought down the Scottish banks were in but no doubt some opportunity will come up. them, working for them, gambling for them and The debate is somewhat unusual in as much as it mismanaging their money. We now have the responsibility refers to a report produced in the previous Parliament of moving forward from that. The banks brought a that has been responded to by the Government in a new crisis on themselves, but they brought it on the rest of Parliament. Relatively few members of the Select Committee us as well. The impact of the spending review next week on Scottish Affairs have survived from the previous will be very much influenced by that—indeed, more by Parliament, but two, at least, are here. The new members that than by any other single factor. wanted to make it clear that the report was not necessarily something they were involved with—just in case there It is undoubtedly a source of some shame to me as a was any blame to be distributed, and in case there was a Scot, and, I am sure, to many others of my Scottish Whip here who might in some way take offence at colleagues, that a situation that developed at the Royal anything that might have been said. They are still at an Bank of Scotland and the Bank of Scotland resulted in age when they are in awe of the Government whipping the need for a bail-out—a rescue—by the Bank of process. I hope that they feel thoroughly cleared by that England. The Bank of England should perhaps more caveat. properly be referred to as the Bank of Britain in this context. It was of course founded by a Scot, and therefore I want to start by referring to the final recommendation we do not need to feel quite the same guilt that we might from the Committee, which called on the successor have felt had we been bailed out by an external body. Of Committee to continue to take the matter forward, and course, the way in which the Bank of England, acting keep it under review and supervision. I am glad that we on behalf of the British Government, was able to ride have today’s debate as the first step in doing that, and to the defence and support of the Scottish banks in that the Committee has already agreed to seek further crisis, demonstrates yet again the strength of the Union information from the banks. Once we have studied that, and the importance of Scotland’s remaining in it. I hope that we shall go on to seek further information from several other organisations that we discussed We must draw a number of lessons from bank failures previously, to see how matters have progressed since the and the bad behaviour of banks. The main one that the report was produced. Committee drew at the time in question was that banks This is a quite fast-moving situation. What we said in and bankers cannot be trusted to do the right thing February drew on hearings that had taken place in unless they are under constant supervision. Where the December 2009 and in January. We reported in February previous Government went wrong was in the fact that and there was a Government report in July, and things new Labour, who in my view were unduly keen to suck are not necessarily the same now. Because of the importance up to big money, accepted the consensus, prevalent at of the banking industry to economic life in Scotland, the time, that regulation was in principle a bad thing we want to keep the matter under review. I understand that should be minimised. that the Minister’s reputation does not put him among I make that criticism of the Government whom I the worst of the Conservative Ministers—[Laughter.] I supported, as a valuable lesson, I hope, to new members notice that he disputes that. I hope he will be prepared of the Committee, so that they will understand that it is to work with us on an ongoing iterative relationship to possible to be a member of a Select Committee and on keep the banks under review. occasion to be critical of the Government. I hope that One of the generic problems, I suppose, of the Scottish that lesson will be supported by the Minister. If Committees Affairs Committee is that as a territorial Committee it are to work properly, there must be occasions where is not our role to stray into general areas that are even the mildest criticism of the party to which one properly the remit of other Committees. Just as, in the belongs is allowed. I hope that I shall be allowed that work that we did on the forthcoming measures on the latitude here today. 151WH Banking in Scotland14 OCTOBER 2010 Banking in Scotland 152WH

[Mr Ian Davidson] Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP): Would the hon. Gentleman care to inform hon. Light-touch regulation became the mantra. New Labour Members about unemployment in Norway, Iceland and was pressed all around by the then Opposition—now Ireland relative to the United Kingdom and about the the leading party in the Government—the Scottish gross domestic product per capita in those countries? If National party, the CBI and the City; all of them called he cannot provide an answer, I will. for less and lighter regulation, and new Labour went along with that. The bankers ran wild, the system Mr Davidson: I look forward to hearing it. collapsed and we are now in a situation where ordinary people are left to bear the burden. The main lesson that Mr MacNeil: Unemployment in Norway and Iceland we should draw—I hope the Minister agrees—is that we is lower than in the UK and unemployment in Ireland is need to move away from an emphasis on minimising the higher, so on unemployment the arc of prosperity beats examination of banks’ conduct and on a lack of the UK 2-1. GDP per capita in Norway, Ireland and intervention when they behave in a way that is not Iceland is higher than in the UK, so on GDP the arc of conducive to the development of the economy and the prosperity beats the UK 3-0. relationships we would want within it. External influence, and the way it needs to be controlled, Mr Davidson: That is presumably why the SNP no is beyond the purview of the Scottish Affairs Committee. longer mentioned it at all. Ever since Iceland’s economy Therefore we imposed a self-denying ordinance that we became so bad that part of the island exploded, we have would not make recommendations on those matters. I heard little about the arc of prosperity from the SNP. intend to stick with that approach today, although some We went across to Ireland because, like Scotland, it of my colleagues who have more flexibility in the debate was—[Interruption.] may want to comment. Mr MacNeil: I hope the hon. Gentleman went to Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con): Does the Norway as well. hon. Gentleman accept that the coalition Government have made some excellent steps in firming up regulation, Andrew Rosindell (in the Chair): Order. The hon. particularly with the proposals to put the Bank of Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil) will England absolutely at the centre of the new regulatory have a chance to contribute to the debate later. Perhaps regime? I am pleased that he seems to think that a good Mr Davidson would like to continue. idea. Mr Davidson: If people just mention the arc of prosperity Mr Davidson: Yes, I agree with the general thrust of the nationalists tend to become somewhat overexcited. those remarks by my colleague, who is a new member of I understand that and accept that it was my responsibility. the Scottish Affairs Committee. I am sure that the I will try not to say anything else that might prove Whips Office will have noted that he is keen to draw unduly provocative. attention to something that has been done by the Visiting Ireland was interesting because— Government and with which I generally agree. The new Government have followed on from the Jim McGovern (Dundee West) (Lab): Will my hon. changed policy of the previous Government, who moved Friend give way? away from being quite slack in terms of focusing on the work of the banks, to being much more rigorous and Mr Davidson: I hope my hon. Friend is not too controlling. The new Government are continuing that excited. process. I welcome that; there is no point trying to identify disagreements that do not exist. There are enough disagreements that do exist without suggesting Jim McGovern: I will try not to be. that we disagree on everything. There is substantial Charges of ¤50 to visit a general practitioner, ¤85 per agreement in this area and I hope that we can build month prescription charges, 25% VAT, 50% income tax on it. and £8 for a pint of beer, which is hard for some people During our investigations, we held 10 hearings over to swallow, are all characteristics of small European seven days and received 16 written reports, all of which countries regularly used as examples by the separatists were helpful. We also visited the Republic of Ireland. who want to take Scotland out of the UK. For the younger hon. Members, I should say that was in the days when there was a fashionable concept, of Mr Davidson: Indeed, all that is true. However, I am which little is heard now, called the arc of prosperity, in danger of becoming diverted. Far be it from me to which was very much discussed in Scotland. allow that to happen. I look forward to hearing exchanges on such matters later. The general idea of the arc of prosperity was that if Scotland became independent it would become like Our visit to Ireland was helpful and constructive. Ireland and Iceland. For some reason that I do not I want to put on the record that we were pleased that all entirely understand, that is no longer raised by Scottish those whom we met were prepared to be perfectly open National party Members of Parliament as much it used with us and that they put everything that we asked for in to be. [Interruption.] We have just been joined by a SNP front of us. That made the trip more interesting, enjoyable Member. Let me tell the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan and educational than it might otherwise have been. an Iar (Mr MacNeil) that the arc of prosperity is no It is clear that in Ireland there was a sort of crony longer raised as much as it once was, largely because it capitalism, where everybody not only knew each other, is no longer there. but lent each other money.The housing prices in particular 153WH Banking in Scotland14 OCTOBER 2010 Banking in Scotland 154WH rocketed upwards to such an extent that when the crash Mr MacNeil: What does the hon. Gentleman think? came the central bank was not able to bail out those who found themselves in difficulty in quite the same Mr Davidson: It is a matter for the Irish people, not way that we in the UK were able to. Scotland had the for us. In the same way, it is for Scottish and Welsh great advantage of being part of the Union and therefore people to decide whether they wish to remain in the the Bank of England was able to bail out the Bank of UK—and it would be for the people of the Falklands to Scotland and the Royal Bank of Scotland. decide whether they wanted to join the UK and for the people of Gibraltar to decide whether they wanted to Mr MacNeil: Did the hon. Gentleman meet many join Spain. All these things are matters for the people people in Ireland who wanted to return to being part of involved. the UK or did they feel that being a low-growth area of the UK would mean not being as successful as being an Mr MacNeil: Do you have no opinion? independent country? Mr Davidson: It is up to them. That is my opinion. Argyll, I believe, should remain part of Scotland. Mr Davidson: It is unrealistic to expect that many in Ireland would want to return to being part of the UK, because people there felt that they wanted independence Mr Alan Reid (Argyll and Bute) (LD): Bermuda! for Ireland even if it impoverished them. Many people we met recognised that, in many ways, they were becoming Mr Davidson: I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving more of a colony of the UK now than they had been, me the opportunity to mention that. Whether Bermuda because high streets in Ireland were run by Tesco and should join the UK or cease to be an overseas territory WH Smith, for example. is a matter for the people of Bermuda. A relatively small number of Irish businesses seemed Andrew Rosindell (in the Chair): Order. I think a to have a presence and they no longer had influence on debate on the overseas territories would be very useful, the UK. People there were unhappy that they no longer but this is not such a debate. Perhaps we can get back to had control over their own currency, because, like the the subject. SNP, they wanted to—and did—join the euro, which meant that they were unable to devalue competitively in Mr Davidson: Indeed, Mr Rosindell, I was led astray a way that might have produced a boost for their by bad boys. economy. There was much weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth, as perhaps the Irish are prone to do, about that I was asked about conclusion 3. The Committee issue. stated in its report: “We welcome the optimism of those working in the financial There is no doubt that the difficulties faced by the services sector who believe that the reputation of that sector in Irish Government and people were exacerbated by Ireland’s Scotland has not been permanently damaged by the difficulties being a stand-alone economy without control over its experienced by two of Scotland’s, and the UK’s, largest banks. We own currency. The Irish Government have been making are reassured that the quality of the location, the lower costs and huge cuts in public services—cuts in wages, pensions the depth and diversity of its labour pool remain attractive to and services—all of which were going through when we global corporations.” visited. Some of those might come about now, but That is particularly welcome in view of one of the seeing all that was helpful and constructive. Committee’s anxieties. We asked everyone we saw whether they believed at that time—the hearings took place in Julian Smith: The hon. Gentleman seems to be talking December 2009 and January 2010—that the financial about the past. One conclusion of this report is that crisis that had arisen from the activities of those working there is confidence in respect of financial services in for the Bank of Scotland and the Royal Bank of Scotland Scotland, despite what happened. I believe that this would have a long-term impact on the finance industry debate and discussions on this topic should focus on in Scotland. It was reassuring and supportive of what how we can use the financial services sector, which has we were seeking to do to have a clear view from virtually had huge success in Scotland, to create more jobs and everyone we spoke to that there was no doubt about private sector investment in this sector from overseas that. A few people had some doubts, but we subsequently and from Scotland. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman spoke to some of them informally and were reassured will come on to that later. that they believed that the waters had calmed and that the Scottish finance industry, although shaken, had not been brought tumbling to the ground. I am glad to Mr Davidson: I am sure that I will. However, the see the Government’s response to that conclusion, which debate is not about the future economic development of is that Scotland; it is about the Committee’s report, which we “The Government will continue to work with the Scottish produced some time ago. My role as Chair is to discuss Government to ensure that the financial services and banking what we covered at that time and ensure that it is all sectors remain strong in the future.” seen in context. I hope that they are also prepared to continue working with the Scottish Affairs Committee, as well, to ensure Mr MacNeil: Given that the hon. Gentleman apparently that, as we monitor, we try to pull things together as far did not meet anybody who wanted to rejoin the UK, as possible. does he feel that Ireland should rejoin the UK? Jim McGovern: Unfortunately, I must leave shortly, Mr Davidson: That is a matter for the Irish people, but I wonder whether my hon. Friend and other hon. not for me. Members have had the same experience as I have had. 155WH Banking in Scotland14 OCTOBER 2010 Banking in Scotland 156WH

[Jim McGovern] swung too far in the other direction. For a period, banks were unduly restrictive. They were prepared to I was elected in 2005, and hold a surgery every week. lend on almost nothing and found excuses to raise Generally, the people coming to my surgeries had problems charges and interest rates to make it as difficult as with tax, pensions, immigration, visas and so on, but in possible for money to go out. We have now seen a swing the past year or so, more and more members of the back and there is a degree of equilibrium, but subsequent local business community have come to my surgeries discussions that the Committee has had have not convinced complaining about how they are treated by the banks. Is me that the banks have got it right yet. that a common experience? Recently, the Committee met representatives from the computer gaming industry in Dundee, the construction Mr Davidson: I have certainly had more people coming and road haulage industries in Edinburgh, and the local to my surgeries to talk about how they are being treated chamber of commerce in Dundee. In every case, the by the banks. I am also aware from money advice story we heard was the same—the banks do not understand centres, Citizens Advice and other advice centres in my us. No one in the construction, road haulage or computer area that since the banking crisis the number of people games industries spoke up for the banks collectively. complaining about how the banks have dealt with them That was interesting, and not a little worrying. Everyone has risen considerably. One is never entirely sure whether who expressed a view on such matters said that they did that is because the issues have been given more publicity— not believe that the banks had taken adequate account what we hear in our surgeries is not necessarily an of the prevailing situation, and did not have a feel for objective assessment—but it is noticeable that the numbers their industry at the moment. They needed loans, floating have risen substantially, and I understand that that is a capital and so on, but the banks were not willing to play common experience. along, except at exorbitant rates. The banks have said that they are making more Julian Smith: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that it money available and that part of the difficulty is that is worth making a distinction between the bash-a-banker lending is going down because companies are choosing rhetoric, which probably many of us hear in relation to to repay debt instead of taking out new debt; but it the problems that our constituents are having, and the seems to me that, to some extent, the rates that the success that Scotland has had in attracting back-office banks charge and the conditions that they seek to apply roles? Those roles have nothing to do with investment are still inhibiting meaningful lending. The Government banking or lending, but are based on traditional Scottish and the Committee should give ongoing consideration accounting talents. Thousands of jobs have been attracted to that. We have had some responses and updates from from a wide range of international companies to the banks involved which seem to paint a picture that is Scotland—to Edinburgh, Dundee and Stirling—and we rosier than recently, but we are still receiving feedback must pay tribute for that. We must continue to try to from those who want to borrow that the banks are not attract such jobs to ensure that financial services play a being as helpful and constructive as they might be. role in making the private sector stronger in Scotland I hope that the Minister and the Committee will be able and lessening public sector predominance. to work together with the Scottish Parliament to ensure that we develop a mutually advantageous liaison and Mr Davidson: I am sure that those points have been relationship. noted by all concerned, including the Minister and the relevant Whip. I want to deal with the report, however, Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab): Will my hon. and while such matters are fascinating, the report does Friend comment on the experience that I have witnessed not deal with them. I look forward to hearing the hon. and have been told about since the report was published? Gentleman’s contribution to the debate, which will no A major lending bank in Edinburgh told me that it has doubt cover anything that anyone misses out. more money than it has ever had to lend, but that Let me make it clear that the Committee believes that people are not coming forward to borrow it. I suspect it is of key importance to continue the supervision of that that might be due to the expectation of those who banks in Scotland, because the banks’ behaviour and would like to borrow that they are being priced out of their success will be essential to the growth and development the market, or would not be granted loans. of the Scottish economy. We cannot build up a small or Another major mismatch in the banking sector is large business sector without having banks in Scotland between front-line staff, who have a relationship with that are able and willing to lend, understand their industries, and the underwriters in the background. markets, and behave constructively and positively. I hope There is anecdotal evidence to suggest that when people that that covers the point that the hon. Gentleman was seek to borrow money, the front-line staff with whom making. they have a relationship believe that the criteria have We wanted to identify the extent to which lending in been met, but the underwriters subsequently use different Scotland had declined during the economic crisis. Our criteria. Has the Committee come across those issues report contains a series of figures and statements indicating since the report was published? that there was a period when lending was far too loose—the banks had been intent on shovelling money Mr Davidson: The first is certainly true. We have been out of the door, almost irrespective of whether the told that money is available but is not being taken up, business propositions were viable. We were critical of and money is being paid back faster than it is going out. the way in which bankers often seemed to be incentivised We have not adequately explored the point at which to make loans without due regard to their viability, decisions are made, not made, or knocked between whether they were for property or to businesses or front office and back office, and my hon. Friend gives individuals. The report states that the pendulum then us a valuable pointer. Having met representatives from 157WH Banking in Scotland14 OCTOBER 2010 Banking in Scotland 158WH three industries that are significant and important to received suggests that that is true. The Government are the welfare of the Scottish economy, and having heard probably in a better position to clarify the figures. That the same story from them all, it seems that something is is certainly a matter that we want to pursue. still not right in the relationship between banking and We continue to receive feedback from Citizens Advice its customers in Scotland. and other organisations suggesting that cases continue When we met with the CBI representatives, we did where one arm of a bank strikes a deal with a customer not quiz them as directly as we might have done because who is in financial difficulties, but another section continues it was an informal meeting, but the same sort of message to pursue the customer, irrespective of the deal done; was coming back. I know from meeting with various and irrespective of the bank having been notified that development groups in my local area, including construction somebody wants to use Citizens Advice or another companies, that people are concerned about the lack of intermediary as a representative, it continues to pursue co-operation that they receive from the banks. That is the customer directly in order to harass them into one area of the report where further work is required, making additional payments. There must be a degree of and I hope that the Minister will be suitably co-operative responsibility on the part of the banks. We understand on that. that the banks need to try to recover their money, and, I will now look at how banks deal with individual particularly when many of them are state owned and customers. We all deal with the public and we are aware state financed to a great extent, we do not want to put from our activities and surgeries that there is a fair them in a position where people can escape their obligations, number of rascals, chancers, villains and incompetents but a balance must be struck. Paragraph 113 of the in most constituencies, except my own. The banks are report states: not necessarily dealing with paragons of virtue on every “We conclude that banks continue to use aggressive tactics occasion and there are people who borrow irresponsibly. towards customers who have fallen into debt”, However, the volume of complaints present at the time and we should all be concerned about that. We have of our report seemed far greater than could reasonably been told by a number of bank staff that some of the be expected. The stories that we have heard since from processes and procedures that I have described continue. Citizens Advice, and the experiences in my surgery and That is concerning. those mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Dundee West (Jim McGovern), suggest that the banks Mary Macleod (Brentford and Isleworth) (Con): Let continue to be less than completely understanding and me state for the record that the Royal Bank of Scotland helpful when dealing with customers in financial difficulty. used to be a client of mine. A number of examples of bad practice are quoted in I suggest to the hon. Gentleman that if customers the report, and it is perhaps appropriate to mention and constituents are having problems with lending or them so that they are on the record. In its evidence to other general banking issues, they should be encouraged us, Citizens Advice highlighted: to bring their problems to us as Members of Parliament, so that we can raise concerns directly with the banks. “Unfair overdraft charges; banks being more aggressive in We could give the banks specific examples of where their behaviour towards debtors; banks encouraging debtors to their processes and procedures are going wrong, so that take out more products as part of their repayment; banks demanding higher repayments from clients in order to repay debt quicker;” they can deal with them directly. and banks are also using the “right of set off” to Mr Davidson: The hon. Lady is in a good position if transfer cash around people’s accounts. None of those she can say that the Royal Bank of Scotland was a client are examples of particularly good practice. Many of us of hers. I used to be a client of the Royal Bank of were worried by the way that banks were utilising call Scotland. Not many of us have it the other way round. centres to a far greater extent that we believed was She is right—people should feel able to come to their justifiable. In many cases, call centres were ringing up MPs and ask them to raise issues on their behalf, but I customers several times a day, and they often seemed to fear that in some locations, the Members involved would be in complete ignorance of arrangements that had run the risk of being swamped. been made with another section of the bank. Those call In my early days as an MP I was involved in establishing centres were often based abroad and perhaps there were a money advice centre and a citizens advice bureau, difficulties in communication. The people who rang up simply because my office could not cope with the volume and talked to the customer seemed to have no flexibility of complaints it received. We do not necessarily need to or power to negotiate or discuss matters, but simply meet those involved in such cases directly in order to get reiterated that they wanted money back. Hon. Members information about them. I regularly get information will understand how stressful that was to people who, in from advice and information centres, which aggregate. many cases, were already highly stressed because of There is always a problem for individual MPs when their financial position. dealing with casework in this and a number of other To some extent, the assurances that we had from the areas, because one is never certain of the extent to banks reminded me of Bart Simpson, who, when he was which the problem presented is typical and shared by a accused of anything, would say, “It wasn’t me, nobody lot of people, or whether it is due to a persistent saw me and you can’t prove it.” The banks tended to constituent who wants to pursue the matter as far as say, “We never did that, it wasn’t as bad as you say and their MP. Although I accept that it would be immensely we don’t do it now.” Clearly, the banks are now at some helpful if MPs had more information, seeing people pains to distance themselves from some practices that individually is not the sole way of getting it. However, I have been going on, but I do not think that they have congratulate the hon. Lady on having had the Royal abandoned them entirely. We have been told that banks Bank of Scotland as a client. I hope that she treated now show greater forbearance before taking people it better than some of its clients have been treated by through the repossession process, and feedback I have that bank. 159WH Banking in Scotland14 OCTOBER 2010 Banking in Scotland 160WH

[Mr Davidson] regulatory environment. So much economic development in Scotland depends on our getting our banking right. I I have spoken enough about Citizens Advice; in the hope that those Committee members who are here accompanying papers, people can read an update from today will be able to add to the points that I have made. that organisation which indicates that not everything is I also hope that the Government will endorse the report flowing as well as it might. I conclude on this aspect by and its conclusions, as they have already, and agree that pointing out that there are always two elements to a most of the conclusions should be taken forward actively. relationship between a group such as Citizens Advice and an organisation such as a bank. First, it is important that the banks are willing to listen, and I think that they 3.12 pm are getting better at that. However, they are not necessarily better at the second element, which is acting on what Iain Stewart (Milton Keynes South) (Con): I am they have heard. Citizens Advice tells us that it has delighted to make a brief contribution to the debate. greater access to the banks, and the banks tell us that Although I represent a constituency south of the border, they have more meetings, but it is not entirely clear that I retain a great affection for, and interest in, the Scottish the banks act on the information they receive in the way banking system. I should declare that I retain my very that we would want. first current account, which is with the Royal Bank of Scotland, and which I took out when I was in my first I want to make two other points. The first relates to job. I hope that that shows that I have some interest in the work force. It is important to stress that the vast the debate and that what I have to say has some relevance. majority of people working for the banks are not on The banking sector in Scotland has been a significant megabucks—they are not enormously well paid or taking player in the Scottish economy for many years, and I huge risks with other people’s money. The Committee hope that it will be for many years to come. I am had figures indicating that bank employees’ average pay relieved that, for all the problems that Scottish banks was about £28,000 at Lloyds bank and £30,500 at the have gone through, they have avoided some of the Royal Bank of Scotland, with the UK average being major catastrophes that have befallen banks in Ireland about £25,000. It would therefore be unfair and and Iceland—I mention that with some trepidation unreasonable to say that everyone working for a bank because I do not want to reignite the arc of prosperity should be the subject of the same opprobrium and be debate between the hon. Members for Glasgow South held responsible for the activities of those at the very West (Mr Davidson) and, if I can get the pronunciation top. We want to make sure that bank employees at the right, for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil)—that lower levels are not held responsible or accountable and was not bad. I welcome the Committee’s finding that do not suffer the pain as a result of lay-offs and the like. despite all the problems, Scottish banks’ reputation for We welcome the fact that the dialogue between the excellence has not been permanently damaged. I am banks and the trade unions on a number of these issues heartened that the Committee found that there are has improved recently. As we take this matter forward, some signs of an upturn in the Scottish banking sector, however, we will want to hear from the trade unions with new investment taking place. about what happens subsequently. I want to make a specific point about the responsibility I also want to touch on question of bonuses, which is of Scottish banks, and indeed all banks, to promote related to the issue of staff but not properly part of the good financial education among their existing customers Committee’s remit, so I will allude to it only in passing. and the population at large. I have fond memories of It was clear from the evidence that we took that the the time when the Royal Bank of Scotland came to my offence caused to many of those affected by the economic primary school in Hamilton to give us some basic crisis by the paying of enormous bank bonuses was lessons about how banks worked. It set up a small disproportionate. The issue was very high up the list of savings account, into which we were encouraged to people’s priorities, even though people were not necessarily deposit a small proportion of our pocket money. At a affected by it and notwithstanding the fact that those young age, that instilled in me some very basic and good bonuses might not come to a lot if they were spread lessons in sound finance. My friends might uncharitably across all the bank’s clients. People simply saw the say that I have kept those lessons with me and talk bonuses as immensely offensive and unfair, and the about my hesitation to contribute towards buying rounds Committee’s view when the report was drawn up was and the like, but the lessons that I learned then were that if we are all in this together, the Government— valuable. whichever Government—should be involved in ensuring Over the years, we have lost sight of such things. The that bonuses are curbed as much as possible. I very events of the past couple of years have shown that all of much welcome the fact that the previous Government us, including the Government, individuals, some businesses dealt with that by introducing a levy and that the and the banks themselves, have lost sight of basic present Government have indicated that they intend to prudence—I seem to remember someone else using that do something similar. We look forward to seeing the word once in a while—which encouraged people to details. borrow only when it was sensible to do so and only for investment in genuine products, rather than just to fund As I said at the beginning, I hope that the report and current consumption. I want to use this opportunity to this debate are not the end of the process. Given the call on the banks to remember their responsibility. I am significance of the banks to economic life in Scotland, I sure that they all have specific schemes in place and that hope that the Committee will continue to keep these they will say that they educate their customers and matters under review and that the Government will others in society, but I want to emphasise how important continue to work with the Scottish Government and it is that they do that, that they do not lose sight of such others to ensure that there is an appropriate and constructive things and that they do all they can to boost them. 161WH Banking in Scotland14 OCTOBER 2010 Banking in Scotland 162WH

I was concerned to read in the Committee’s report—the He is simply someone in the middle management sections, hon. Member for Glasgow South West expanded on or rather he was before he was let go—I think that those this—of evidence that the banks are placing undue are the words used these days. He finds the situation pressure on customers to take out products that might very difficult because he personally has faced some of not be in their best interests and to take on more debt the opprobrium that has been heaped on the banking than is sensible. It causes me some concern that the community as a result of what happened with the lessons of the past few years have not been learned. banks. I welcome the Government’s initiative to establish the I place on the record my thanks to the previous consumer protection and markets authority. When the members of the Scottish Affairs Committee for this legislation to introduce the authority is introduced, a thorough report. I will refer to some of its conclusions central part of its remit will be to remind the banks that and recommendations. It was a thorough piece of work, they have an obligation to promote good financial and timely. We can think back to just how awful things education and sound financial advice so that we do not were when some of the major banks in Scotland and, get back into a position where everyone—everyone indeed, elsewhere were on the brink of extinction. I hope probably is guilty of this in some respect—takes out too that no matter what side of the House hon. Members sit much debt, funding their lifestyle rather than sensible on, they will understand that Government intervention investments. was necessary at that stage and had to take the form Julian Smith: Does my hon. Friend agree that we that it took in order to ensure that those banks survived. must also have transparency about deposit rates and I shall focus on a couple of the recommendations in good depositor information? I and other colleagues the report. My hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow have constituents who are completely flummoxed by the South West (Mr Davidson) has already talked about way in which deposit systems work in banks, and a great bankers’ bonuses. It is clear when we talk to ordinary deal more morality and transparency in that area would people on the doorstep that that issue is now in the not go amiss. public psyche. I am referring to the fact that many people in the banking system were simply paid far too Iain Stewart: My hon. Friend makes an important much, very unfairly, and people did not see what those point, and I would extend it even further: any banking bankers had done to justify those very large amounts of product should be utterly transparent so that people money, when many of them were struggling to get by, know what return they will get or what interest rate they whether on the minimum wage or on very low incomes, will have to pay in the long term. People often get an and were taking what they felt was the brunt of the attractive headline rate of interest for the first year or crisis. We still have some way to go to convince people two, but then find themselves locked into a more punitive that that whole area has been evened out and that we rate. As my hon. Friend says, better transparency across have moved towards a fairer system. the board is vital, and I hope that that, too, will be a central theme of the new authority. My hon. Friend also referred to another point in the It has always been a central belief of mine that we report—recommendation 5 in relation to viewing have sound finance in this country, but we have lost repossession as the last resort, saying that the banks sight of it, and I hope that the lessons have been learned and building societies should perhaps view matters by the banks and everyone else. differently. It took legislation, particularly in the Scottish Parliament, to ensure that that happened, because there were fears that, despite all the exhortations, the banks 3.19 pm were still not looking at repossession as the last resort. Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co- Many people, particularly sole traders in small or medium- op): I should perhaps start by assuring hon. Members sized businesses, had been required to put their homes that, unlike some of my hon. Friends, I have never been up as security in order for the businesses to continue led astray by bad boys. Indeed, I have made a career of and they found themselves in danger not only of losing challenging bad boys’ behaviour and threatening that their business for lack of finance, but of losing the roof all sorts of awful things would happen to them if they over their head. continued to misbehave. With those opening remarks, I Some of the most awful experiences that I have had should perhaps move quickly on to the start of my brief as an elected politician have involved seeing business comments. men whom I knew to be pillars of my local community I begin with the place that to me is perhaps the centre and who had contributed a huge amount in the local of the universe—Auchinleck, in my constituency. A few area suddenly finding themselves in very difficult times, weeks ago, during an unexpected lull in the excitement coming to my surgery and breaking down in tears in my of the football match at Beechwood Park, which for the office because they felt that they had literally no one uninitiated is the home of Auchinleck Talbot football else to turn to. I hope that we shall not see any more of club, I felt a tap on my shoulder and a constituent asked those situations and that people will be more sympathetic. whether he could have a quiet word with me. I am not In my role in the Scottish Parliament, I was one of the unused to that sort of thing happening. Usually it is people who pushed for the relevant legislation. about a particular problem, and I am usually able to tell the constituent that he can call me at the office, or we I want to focus on the issue of fair treatment of have a chat about it. However, in that instance, the customers, which has been mentioned and was the constituent prefaced his remarks by saying, “Before you subject of recommendation 7. I think that my hon. say anything else, I have to tell you that I am a banker.” Friend the Member for Glasgow South West has already He went on to make the serious point that often he referred to the wording: cannot now tell people what his employment is. He is “We conclude that banks continue to use aggressive tactics not one of the high fliers, one of the big bonus earners. towards customers who have fallen into debt.” 163WH Banking in Scotland14 OCTOBER 2010 Banking in Scotland 164WH

[Cathy Jamieson] unexpected. For some people, the right of set-off means that earnings that were paid into the bank were taken Citizens Advice has given us an update on what that without their knowledge and without any discussion means for real people living in our communities. It with them beforehand and were used to pay their debts. states that, in 2009-10, 135,032 new debt issues were I am not suggesting for a moment that people should brought to Scotland’s advice bureaux, which helped not pay their debts or should not be helped to budget people to deal with those issues. It states that more than where that is appropriate, but many people on low 4,200 problems with bank accounts were brought to its incomes are very good at budgeting. bureaux in 2009-10 and that a number of those issues What is happening is simply not acceptable. Citizens were connected with the interest and charges associated Advice gives the example of a lone parent’s bank taking with the account, while a high number were connected £400 from her account to repay debts without her with the difficulties of opening accounts. There are still permission. After her wages had been paid in, that situations in which that occurs, despite all that has money was taken out and she had literally no money at happened. all to live on. In another case, a client’s bank used the We may talk about high finance and the economic right of set-off to put the client’s wages towards arrears impact of what is happening with the banks on a global on a loan. That individual was working only 10 hours a scale, but many people living in our communities still week and receiving £11 a week in benefits. When they cannot get a bank account that they can afford to were paid, the bank took the full amount towards the operate, and of course they rely on that to be able to arrears, leaving the individual with no funds whatever. manage their business. Basic bank accounts are very There is more to look at on that. important, but we should not underestimate the difficulty The banks are saying in their responses that it is now that people encounter if they do not have a credit easier for businesses to borrow, but I think that there history, if they have not been in employment or if they are still difficulties. I regularly hear from start-up businesses are a young person leaving the care system. In those that they have to use personal loans or continue to use circumstances, trying to open a bank account is extremely their homes or other security. They are not able to difficult, and there is much more to be done in that access funding that would help to match the start-up respect. funding that may be available for the business, so there The report mentioned overdraft charges and, again, is a disjoint in those contexts. There are still difficulties Citizens Advice Scotland has given us an update on for businesses suffering temporary cash-flow problems. some of the problems that people face. It says that A reputable business in my area with lots of orders clients report incurring overdraft charges due to mistakes coming through contacted me recently. Simply due to often made by others, including the banks themselves, delays in receiving payment owed for contracts, they are benefit agencies and companies failing to cancel direct in a difficult cash-flow situation and looking to their debits. bank to give flexibility, but they are not getting it. People will be aware of the case that was taken up by In conclusion, I want to return to where I started in the Office of Fair Trading and pursued very ably by Auchinleck, which is not a bad place to return to, and Mike Dailly, the principal solicitor at Govan law centre, talk about financial education. The hon. Member for in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Milton Keynes South (Iain Stewart) mentioned the Glasgow South West. He will know it very well. People days when there was a bank book and one could pay in still face real difficulties as a result of what are seen by money; in my school days it was into the Trustee the banks’ customers as unfair charges. Savings bank, and in my constituency it is the Cumnock Let me give a couple of illustrations, because it is and Doon Valley Credit Union, which goes in to schools worth having on the record what Citizens Advice tells and has a junior credit union in Auchinleck primary us. It says that one client school. Ironically, in the same week that some bailed-out “accumulated over £1,000 in bank charges over a three month banks sent letters advising me that I could go along and period while his bank refused his application for an approved hear what they were doing about financial education in overdraft limit.” schools, I paid a visit to the young people who run the The client was overdrawn by £270 and simply wanted junior savers scheme in Auchinleck primary school. an overdraft facility so that he could make arrangements They seem to have got the message pretty clearly. They to pay off the money that he owed without facing were involved in taking the money, keeping the accounts multiple charges. A single mother was being charged and looking at what they were responsible for, which £5 by her bank for every day that she was overdrawn was highlighted when the photographer who came to and £25 for every transaction that she made during that look at what we were doing asked whether he could period. That woman was living on income support with have a pound coin out of the cashbox to illustrate what a five-year-old daughter. Incurring bank charge after was happening. The young people said no, because he bank charge after bank charge, with no assistance to get was not a member of the credit union, and it was not his out of those problems, is no way forward for people in money or their money to give away. I will finish on that those circumstances. very salient point. Others should perhaps take note. Again, my hon. Friend was right to highlight the 3.32 pm problems in relation to set-off. If anyone has ever lived in a situation in which every penny is a prisoner, they Mr Alan Reid (Argyll and Bute) (LD): I was not a have to budget and know exactly where their money is member of the Select Committee on Scottish Affairs in coming from and where it is going week to week, they the previous Parliament, but I want to congratulate its will know that they can manage in many instances then members on the excellent report that they produced, because they have a degree of certainty. What is impossible and congratulate the new Chair, the hon. Member for for people on very low incomes to cope with is the Glasgow South West (Mr Davidson), on securing the 165WH Banking in Scotland14 OCTOBER 2010 Banking in Scotland 166WH debate today. I agree that it is important for the Committee would be considered in the spending review. I know that to keep banking services in Scotland under review because the Minister cannot pre-empt the spending review, but I the banks are obviously an important and essential part hope that we will get good news either today or next of our economy. Wednesday. The analysis of how we got here is fairly straightforward. It is important that banks have a presence in local For far too long the banks were undertaking far too communities, particularly remote communities, which much risky lending, and when panic broke out, they many in my constituency are. Banking managers based went to the opposite extreme and leant hardly anything in large towns or cities cannot properly understand at all. We would have hoped that the situation would small remote communities. That issue was brought to improve, but time after time, when I meet the owners of the fore last year when HBOS decided to reorganise its small businesses in my constituency, I get the same small business managers. Until then, managers were story: they are finding it very difficult to get loans from based in many communities in my constituency, but it the banks, even for viable projects or when they have a withdrew them. There was complete uproar on the good order book. Often, even established companies Island of Islay at the thought of losing the local business find that they cannot get a loan from the bank on manager. It is only fair to HBOS to say that the reason reasonable terms. that nearly all the businesses on the island were its There is clearly a lack of competition. Business owners customers was because it had a local business manager tell me that, even if they go to other banks for a better on the island, unlike the other banks. Many small deal, the cost of moving from one to another is prohibitive. businesses were with HBOS because it had provided a They have to pay a break fee to the bank that they are better service. The decision to take the manager away with and pay a joining fee to the bank to which they and operate with managers based on the mainland want to transfer, so the cost of the switch far outweighs caused uproar, and there was a massive campaign to any benefit that they might get from a slightly better keep the local manager. It is important that banks have deal. I hope that the Government will look at that and roots in local communities, and HBOS made a big investigate how we can have genuine competition in the mistake by withdrawing the business manager and having banking industry. Small business owners often say to people phone managers on the mainland. A manager me, “Please don’t write anything down” or “Please occasionally coming to see small businesses is not the don’t take this up with the bank”, because they are correct way to run a banking business. frightened that, if the bank knew that they had dared to Finally, on the theme of banks in small communities, complain, the situation would get worse. Although there I have long supported the campaign for a post bank, may not be evidence coming forward, I and other hon. and I hope that the Government will take it forward. A Members I am sure have found that the same problem bank based at the local post office would provide much exists for many small businesses. better banking services to small, remote communities—both I was pleased that the Government response to the to businesses and to individuals. I hope that the Government Committee report stated that they believed that banks will develop the idea, and that we might see a post bank need to promote lending to SMEs better and that they before long. would be working with the industry on disclosure of regional lending data. I hope that the Minister can update us today on progress on that. 3.40 pm Concerns from individuals are often about unfair Chris Leslie (Nottingham East) (Lab/Co-op): I declare banking charges, which is a subject that goes back many an interest as a trustee of the Consumer Credit Counselling years. It has not just happened since the banking crisis Service in Scotland. I act in a voluntary capacity, with of two years ago; for many years before that, people no remuneration. The CCCS is a debt advice charity, complained about unfair charges. Someone may which has been greatly active on many of the matters inadvertently go into overdraft for a day or a few hours, raised by my hon. Friends and others during this welcome and suddenly huge charges appear on their account, debate. and that can often be the start of debt. For someone on a very small income, for whom every penny is a prisoner, The debate is about a most welcome report. As my a charge of £30 or £40 can be the start of deeper debt. hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow South West The previous Committee recommended that the (Mr Davidson) said, the report, which was thorough regulatory authorities monitor banks for bad practice. and worth while, was published at the end of the The Government response was that they were introducing previous Parliament. It was incredibly important, given measures to end unfair bank and financial transaction the estimated one in 10 jobs in Scotland that are linked charges, on which I hope the Minister can update us. to the long-standing financial services industry. Jobs, of Other hon. Members mentioned the evidence that Citizens course, have subsequently been lost in Scotland, as they Advice Scotland gave in its update for the debate, but it have elsewhere, bank branches have closed, and the is important to stress it again. It said that banks are whole economy has been affected by the credit crunch. listening more, but the problem is not getting them to On this, my fourth day in my new role as shadow listen, but getting them to act. I hope that the Minister Financial Secretary, I anticipate having many debates will look at that and mention it in his response. I was on financial services and their impact on consumers in pleased to note that the Government said in their response all corners of the country. Although I spoke far too that they were committed to providing a free national much and at great length in my previous guise as a Back financial advice service and an annual family financial Bencher, I will take this opportunity to reiterate my health check, which the new social responsibility levy default position on many of these matters and, in on the financial services sector would fund. They said particular, on the three clear questions that I believe are that financial support for Citizens Advice Scotland fundamental to my new portfolio. 167WH Banking in Scotland14 OCTOBER 2010 Banking in Scotland 168WH

[Chris Leslie] finance their investments and lending, which created excessively leveraged positions and left the banks incapable First, what reforms are necessary to minimise the of coping with the freezing up of the wholesale markets. systemic risk to a well functioning economy and society In addition, the underlying market sentiment, which, following the experience of the credit crunch? Secondly, like the banking practices, had existed for a long time, how can we create a thriving and healthy financial implied an assumption of continuous expansion, creating services industry in the United Kingdom, including in expectations of never-ending profitability with high-scale Scotland, rebuilding it with a reputation for sustainability, rewards and bonuses, which clouded the judgment of solidity and trust? Thirdly, how can we ensure greater too many practitioners in the sector. fairness for the consumers of financial services products, so that the industry operates on the basis of common Julian Smith: Would the shadow Minister say that the sense and fair play? banks were merely reflecting the zeitgeist and the leadership It is heartening that many of the contributors to this of the Government of the time by over-extending debate not only focused on what might sometimes seem themselves, living beyond their means and paying far to be ethereal issues between the players in the industry, too much for their work force? but considered matters very much from the consumer perspective, speaking of people’s encounters with issues Chris Leslie: Much as we in politics might like to that are central to their lives. think that everything done in the political game shapes society at large, my view is that the economy and society The report contains an excellent collection of evidence, around us—not only in this country but in the world at taken over a long period, going back to November and large—suffered from too much exuberance when it came December 2009. I am glad that my hon. Friend referred to the allure and attraction of profitability in that to the visits to Ireland and to evidence heard elsewhere, sector. We should have taken a far more hard-headed successfully bringing in the arc of prosperity and making approach all round. Much as I congratulate the hon. important points on the changing circumstances and Gentleman on trying to make a party political point the erroneous arguments made by members of the about the root cause of the global credit crunch, it Scottish National party. would not be fair to pin it on one or two politicians in Many interesting lessons on the housing market, on one or two countries. The problem was systemic and we public sector deficit reduction and its impact on growth, must all learn the lessons from it; otherwise it will be on the regulation of credit rating agencies and so forth, repeated—and that will affect Scotland as well as the are all brought out in the report. Perhaps most notable rest of the world. is the impact of the credit crunch on Scotland in respect HBOS was merged with Lloyds TSB to form Lloyds of changes to the Royal Bank of Scotland and Halifax Banking Group, and subsequently took advantage of Bank of Scotland—HBOS—and we should not forget Government capitalisation, which led to 43% public the difficulties that affected Dunfermline building society. ownership. RBS received public funds resulting in 63% The report is an eloquent exposition or post-mortem of public ownership, rising to about 84% with subsequent the lessons that need to be learned from that period, injections of new capital. Special liquidity support and and it is worth reiterating them. a number of other instruments created circumstances where the Government were very much foisted into the Julian Smith: The report was eloquent. Did it make driving seat of our financial services industry. the hon. Gentleman reflect on the Labour Government’s The Government set a number of conditions, and I role in what went wrong, and the lax regulatory regime am glad that the present Administration have maintained that had been allowed to develop, which was the source a number of them. They include urging the banks to of many of the problems for the financial services maintain competitive lending to retail and business industry in Scotland? customers at 2007 levels and encouraging the banks to deal with several of the failings that they experienced, Chris Leslie: Certainly we all have lessons to learn including issues of remuneration, restricting dividend from the credit crunch. Countries across the world, payments, helping people struggling with mortgage including the UK, did not frame correctly the regulatory payments and so on. Of course, experience tells us that environment in which financial services operated. That we still need to hold the feet of the banks to the is absolutely clear. However, it reminds me that we do commitments drawn out of them in exchange for the not state often enough that it was the previous Labour resources that were given to save their very existence. Administration that saved our economy from falling We should certainly ask the Government and the Minister over the cliff edge and into the abyss. Although the to what extent they are succeeding. current Administration sometimes give the impression that they would not have committed the resources necessary Stephen McPartland (Stevenage) (Con): I congratulate to achieve that, I believe that any Administration of any the hon. Gentleman on his new role as shadow Minister. colour would have had to taken those steps. I am proud Does he agree that some of the rhetoric used, such as that my party did so, even though that may be the root “holding the banks’ feet to the fire”, has created an cause of some of the deficit questions that have subsequently awful situation for many of those working on the front arisen. line in the banks, who receive abuse or suffer the emotional Key lessons need to be learned. Too few people had difficulties that some Members have described today? proper cognisance of the true liabilities on the books of We need to move away from that rhetoric and towards our major banks, either because of the complexity of the understanding that only a small group of people the various products involved or because of the poor were involved. The main reason for the banks’ difficulties risk assessment of those financial instruments. Banks was the lack of regulation in the past 10 years or so. were over-reliant on the wholesale capital markets to The banks became such complex organisations that 169WH Banking in Scotland14 OCTOBER 2010 Banking in Scotland 170WH they almost lost control over what they were doing. Chris Leslie: I certainly do not mean in the day-to-day Unfortunately, it is those now on the front line who are lending decisions. That would be an incredible position taking abuse for what was done by those who have now for a politician to take with a bank. Nonetheless, our moved on to other highly paid roles. constituents could legitimately say that if we—through the Treasury and UK Financial Investments—hold a Chris Leslie: I understand where the hon. Gentleman stake on their behalf in these large institutions that play is coming from. It would be unfortunate if a cashier or such a valuable part in all our lives, but do not ask teller was wrongly blamed by a member of the public questions about the commitments that were given and for something that their bank or institution had done. I do not scrutinise the attention that banks are paying to know that only a small number of individuals were those commitments, we are failing in our duties. That is involved in what happened, but this is an institutional my point. There is a level of active scrutiny, attention problem and not just a personalised one. We cannot just and challenge that the Government should adopt in change the faces of the directors at HBOS or RBS and that respect. expect that all the problems will be ironed out. Although It is important, too, to focus on the point made in the we must consider the regulatory environment, we should report about lending to homeowners. Although it did understand that the problem is more the culture of the not crop up often in the debate, that is a problem in companies in that sector in general. As we know from Scotland. First-time buyers are more likely to find it other circumstances, Government can cajole and set the hard to get mortgage finance. The deposit currently rules, but ultimately they are not the ones who should required is something in the order of 25%, which is an be running those firms responsibly. Good corporate incredible burden on many of my hon. Friends’constituents. governance should have taken a different path; it did The Chartered Institute of Housing says that there are not in the credit crunch. I hope that we can get things more problems with house lending arrangements in back on the rails, so that we have a sustainable and Scotland than there are in the rest of the UK. solid—perhaps some would say boring—financial services sector in future, and regain some of the trust that the Concerns about the fair treatment of customers were City and the financial services industry both here and in well set out. They include unfair banking charges and Scotland truly deserve. the mark-up in rates of interest. The difference between the wholesale rate of interest that the banks pay and the The report raises issues that definitely deserve attention. rate of interest that they charge their customers, both My hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow South West businesses and retail, has been growing, probably fuelled talked about the bonuses paid to high earners and the by the requirement of the banks to rebuild their own juxtaposition between ordinary front-line staff and the balance sheets. None the less, that is something that well paid senior executives. I am glad that the previous customers in Scotland and elsewhere are extremely sceptical Chancellor instituted that one-off bank bonus levy of about. There are also questions about aggressive debt 50% on discretionary bonuses above £25,000. It yielded collection. My hon. Friend the Member for Kilmarnock £2 billion, which was far more than expected. It will be and Loudoun (Cathy Jamieson) said that something interesting to watch how the current Administration like 135,000 debt problems had been brought to the and the Minister seek to deal with the ongoing concerns Scottish citizens advice bureaux in 2009-10. The massive of the general public about excessive remuneration. job of providing such advice is falling on the shoulders Those concerns are legitimate and need to be addressed of a very poorly funded voluntary sector in Scotland. to rebuild the trust that is much deserved by those who are genuinely working hard to do their best in a very The hon. Member for Milton Keynes South (Iain complex industry. Stewart) raised the important topic of financial education. The hon. Member for Argyll and Bute (Mr Reid) I should like to see us revisit the extent to which the mentioned the willingness of banks to lend to businesses. national curriculum explores how we teach young people Discussions are under way with the British Bankers’ about the basics of money. Certainly, it is the responsibility Association and others, and reports have been published of the new consumer protection markets authority to today. We are hearing many conflicting reports. The consider that as well in due course. banks themselves are adamant that money is available, This debate has been very worth while. Both directly yet the reports that we consistently receive in our surgeries and indirectly, banking has a massive effect on the lives across the country is that small and medium-sized of people in Scotland. The report is a perfect example enterprises are finding the hurdles that they have to of how the Scottish Affairs Committee speaks out for jump over too high and that, too often, banks are not the interests of Scotland. willing to do business with them. That exerts a lag effect on our economy in general and the problem definitely 3.57 pm needs the Minister’s attention. We want the commitments that were given at the time of the rescue of the banking The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr Mark sector to be properly enforced. We should also see the Hoban): First, let me congratulate both the Chair of the public stake in our banking sector activated. Given that Select Committee on opening this debate, and you, the public own that stake, they, like any owner of any Mr Rosindell, on chairing your first Westminster Hall company, should be able to ask that lending arrangements sitting. You need no lessons from the hon. Member for are fulfilled in the best interests of our economy. Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Cathy Jamieson) on controlling The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr Mark bad boys. Hoban): Will the hon. Gentleman clarify whether he is This is a helpful report. Every hon. Member at the moving away from the previous Government’s position start of their speech has positioned themselves in relation of managing RBS and Lloyds Bank at arm’s length to to it. It was my predecessor, Lord Myners, who gave one in which the Government play an active role in their oral evidence to the Committee, but it is this Government day-to-day management and lending decisions? who responded to the report. I want to take the opportunity 171WH Banking in Scotland14 OCTOBER 2010 Banking in Scotland 172WH

[Mr Mark Hoban] account is costing them. During an intervention, my hon. Friend the Member for Skipton and Ripon (Julian to talk through our response and the progress that we Smith) talked about improving data on interest rates have made since July and to address some of the issues and the Government have made steps, following a super- that hon. Members have raised. It is worth bearing in complaint on individual savings accounts, to ensure mind some of the remarks that have been made about that there is much more transparency and that people the Scottish financial services sector. Although the problems can move their accounts from one provider to another at RBS and Lloyds TSB and the failure of the Dunfermline more quickly. building society cast a long shadow, they are only part of the Scottish financial service sector—a point made Cathy Jamieson: As a follow-up to that point, I to me when I visited fund managers and insurers in wonder whether the Minister can ensure that the mutual Edinburgh earlier this year. sector is not unfairly disadvantaged, given that it largely It was more than 300 years ago that William Paterson avoided the problems that we have seen with some of founded both the Bank of Scotland and the Bank of the other banks. Will he ensure that any changes in England. Today, that heritage of innovation, education, legislation support the continuation of the mutual sector? and expertise is still very much alive, and reaches across a whole range of financial services, beyond the roots of Mr Hoban: Indeed. I am very grateful to the hon. banking in Scotland in the 17th century.General insurance, Lady for mentioning that point, because one of the life and pensions, asset management and related services commitments in the coalition agreement is, of course, all have a place in Scotland’s financial hubs of Glasgow to foster diversity and ownership in the financial services and Edinburgh, and also in people’s high streets. We sector, including strengthening the mutual sector. The think of financial services as being related to the City, hon. Lady’s intervention also reminds me that she raised Canary Wharf or the big centres in Glasgow, Edinburgh the issues about set-off. I know that set-off is very and Aberdeen, but of course they are part of our high important to many consumers and she will be pleased streets too. We cannot forget that. to know that the Financial Services Authority is reviewing Some of the reasons why we see a vibrant financial it at the moment. services sector in Scotland are the highly talented and I was talking about reducing risk and the role of the educated work force, the strong infrastructure and the Independent Commission on Banking. The debate about first-class support businesses such as law and accountancy, how we reduce risk is not just a UK debate. We have which all provide a firm foundation for the Scottish been at the forefront of developing common international financial services sector. I believe that the sector will standards of regulation—for example, in Basel and play a role in our recovery and future prosperity, not through the capital requirements directive negotiations only in Scotland but in the United Kingdom as a whole. in the EU. In addition, we have led the way in developing However, that will happen only if it reconnects with approaches to minimise the risk of failure and to ensure businesses and families. that, when failures do occur, the call on the taxpayer is The financial services sector in Scotland has been minimised. Of course, it was the previous Government through difficult times. Extraordinary action has been who introduced the special resolution regime, which we taken to restore stability to the financial services sector, supported, and “living wills”—the recovery and resolution as the hon. Member for Nottingham East (Chris Leslie) plans that were in the Financial Services Act 2010. We said in his remarks. Since March, when the Committee’s also supported that measure. report was published, I think that the situation in We will continue to work with international colleagues Scotland and throughout the UK has improved to ensure that the implementation and sequencing of considerably. Actions taken by financial authorities, regulatory changes are taken forward in a way that along with improving global conditions, have enabled balances the need to act now on the lessons of the crisis banks and building societies to stabilise, begin restructuring with the need to maintain the competitiveness of the and slowly start to restore consumers’ trust. industry. However, we must continue to be vigilant. We cannot A number of hon. Members talked about the regulatory take the strength of Scotland’s financial sector for granted framework. Clearly, the reputation and long-term success and I welcome the Committee’s contribution to the of Scotland’s banks also depend on trust. Customers discussion about how improvements can be made. The need to know that they will be treated fairly and opportunity exists now to deliver real and lasting reform appropriately by all financial institutions. The robust of the financial sector, to ensure that it is stronger, safer regulatory framework that we are creating will help to and more resilient. The Government are determined to cement the attractiveness of Scotland’s financial sector, deliver that reform. by providing certainty for banks and confidence for In the future, we must examine the structure of banking, consumers without stifling innovation and growth. including the links between size, risk and competition. We have learned the lessons from the financial crisis To that end, we have tasked the Independent Commission and set out a radical reform to the architecture of on Banking, under the chairmanship of Sir John Vickers, financial regulation that we inherited. Earlier this year, to consider structural and non-structural reforms to the the Chancellor announced that the Government will UK banking sector, in order to promote stability and legislate to create a new prudential regulation authority competition. as a subsidiary of the Bank of England. The PRA will My hon. Friend the Member for Argyll and Bute be responsible for prudential regulation of all deposit-taking (Mr Reid) talked about competition in the banking institutions, insurers and investment banks. It will cover sector. Clearly, we need to think about issues such as the all issues affecting the safety and soundness of individual transparency of the financial information available to firms, including remuneration. It will have the focus, customers, so that they know how much their bank expertise and mandate to ensure effective prudential 173WH Banking in Scotland14 OCTOBER 2010 Banking in Scotland 174WH supervision and regulation of individual firms, thereby HSBC sponsors in primary schools; I saw it in the strengthening the UK’s financial system and its resilience Wallisdean infant school in my own constituency. It was to future crises. quite interesting to talk to children between five and We will ensure that financial regulation delivers financial seven about the importance of saving and spending. services and markets that are secure and within which Clearly, even at that early age they have thought about private individuals, small businesses and multinational this issue very carefully. firms have all the information available to them to make The new consumer financial education body will roll the right choices, as well as the right level of protection out the national financial advice service, which will be if things should go wrong. That is crucial. free and impartial. Of course, that service will be funded Consequently, alongside the PRA we will establish a by the industry through a social responsibility levy. The consumer protection and markets agency, which will be cost of the service will not be picked up by the taxpayer; a new and integrated conduct regulator. The CPMA the service will be industry-funded, as part of the industry’s will take a tougher, more proactive and more focused contribution to tackling some of these issues. I think approach to regulating conduct in financial services and that the service will help consumers throughout the UK markets. That will ensure that the behaviour of firms— to get the best from their financial providers and to give whether they are based in the high street or trade in them the information that they need to manage their high finance—is placed at the heart of the regulatory finances responsibly. The service will be further system, giving consumers greater clarity. The CPMA’s complemented by the simple products initiative that we primary objective will be to ensure confidence in financial announced in July. services and markets, with a particular focus on protecting The hon. Member for Glasgow South West raised the consumers and ensuring market integrity. issue of repossessions. I say to him that in 2009 47,700 Appropriate regulation is vital to instilling confidence homes were repossessed, compared with an estimate in financial services, protecting customers’ interests and that 75,000 would be repossessed. In the first quarter of ensuring clean and efficient markets, where both retail this year, 9,800 homes were repossessed and in the and wholesale customers can engage confidently and second quarter 9,400 homes were. In part, that is due to with the degree of protection appropriate to their needs. the forbearance of lenders, but clearly the low interest rate environment has made it possible for more people Regulators are continuing to monitor firms for poor to stay in their own homes. That is to be welcomed. practice and they will develop new initiatives to ensure [Interruption.] that consumers are treated fairly. A specific focus will be given to cases of unarranged overdraft charges. Working Andrew Rosindell (in the Chair): Order. There is a alongside the industry, the Office of Fair Trading has Division in the House. Would the Minister like to finish developed commitments on unarranged overdraft charges. his comments now, or shall I suspend the sitting? They include an agreement that consumers should be able to opt out of unarranged overdraft facilities and Mr Hoban: I would like the sitting to be suspended, minimum standards for how that process of opting-out please. should work. Furthermore, earlier this week we laid the regulations Andrew Rosindell (in the Chair): Okay. The sitting will to turn on the new section 404 powers—a provision in be suspended for 15 minutes. Order. the Financial Services Act 2010, which was passed just before the election—that will enable the FSA to require 4.9 pm firms to establish consumer redress schemes. We believe Sitting suspended for a Division in the House. that it is right to turn that provision on. However, we also need to ensure that consumers have 4.25 pm advice at their fingertips. We have already announced On resuming— the introduction of an annual financial health check. That check will help families and individuals to get into Mr Hoban: I want to respond to the comment made the habit of taking a thorough look at their finances. It by my hon. Friend the Member for Argyll and Bute will show them where they are most at risk and how about the Post Office bank. Part of the coalition agreement they can regain control of their finances and plan for was that we would consider the case for a Post Office the future. It will give people a “prescription” that will bank. He will know that the Under-Secretary of State offer clear advice on what they can do to improve their for Business, Innovation and Skills, my hon. Friend the financial situation now and for the years ahead. Member for Kingston and Surbiton (Mr Davey), has My hon. Friend the Member for Milton Keynes responsibility for the Post Office. We are looking through South (Iain Stewart) and the hon. Member for Kilmarnock the options at the moment and thinking about how the and Loudoun talked about the importance of inculcating Post Office can expand the scope of the financial services the habit of saving among children early on in their that it offers across the counter. That would be of lives—indeed, the hon. Member for Nottingham East benefit to many—particularly those in rural areas, where also highlighted that issue. It is absolutely vital. Of the nearest post office may be closer than the nearest course, it is a responsibility that we all share and it is an bank. idea that is supported by a number of financial services I shall move on to address the issue of lending to bodies. small and medium-sized businesses, which has cropped The hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun up in a number of contributions. Banks can and do play mentioned the Cumnock and Doon Valley credit union. a critical role in providing finance for new start-ups, Across the UK, credit unions play an important role in growing enterprises and our largest corporations. A this area of education. I have been to see a project that thriving banking sector is therefore critical for our 175WH Banking in Scotland14 OCTOBER 2010 Banking in Scotland 176WH

[Mr Hoban] Mr Hoban: My hon. Friend raises two interesting points. On his second point, a number of banks have economic recovery. Ensuring the flow of credit to small raised the point about whether the capital requirements and medium-sized enterprises is particularly essential to restrict their lending. The agreement reached last month supporting growth. In Scotland alone, SMEs account on Basel 3 requires banks to raise their core tier 1 for more than 1 million jobs, so they are an important capital to 7%. UK banks are already well placed to part of the economy in not just Scotland, but every achieve that, so that is less of a constraint. They have constituency and part of the nation. been given until 2018 to achieve that level, which will The importance of getting credit flowing to SMEs enable them to phase in the increased capital requirement, meant that the Chancellor made a series of announcements so I do not think that that necessarily acts as a disincentive in the June Budget. There was the extension of £200 million to lend. to the enterprise finance guarantee scheme, which will The other side of the argument relates to the risk benefit 2,000 additional small businesses across the UK attached to lending to SMEs, which is an issue that and bring the lending covered by the EFG up to banks have raised with me. The Bank of England’s £700 million. In addition, an enterprise capital fund to financial stability report stated that there is scope for support small businesses with high growth potential banks both to build capital and to continue lending to was announced, combining both Government and private the real economy, so that is less of a concern than my sector funding. In July, we also published a Green Paper hon. Friend suggests. However, he made the valid point on financing a private sector recovery—consultation on that a number of foreign banks have exited the market, that has closed—which considered a broad range of creating a gap that several UK banks have sought to fill, finance options for businesses of different sizes, including and we should not overlook that fact in any debate on bank lending. We will respond formally to that in the banking. next few weeks. It is important that we have the necessary information The Select Committee’s report expressed concern about available to be able to hold banks to account on lending the availability of lending and whether Scottish banks across all parts of the UK. I know that the Scottish are truly open for business. Again, those concerns have Government, in the absence of that information, been mentioned in the debate. Today the banks have commissioned a review of lending in February 2010. published, through the British Bankers Association When we start to look at the regional data, we will be taskforce, a series of measures to help improve customer helped by the fact that the banks will want to engage in relationships, promote better access to finance and, an outreach programme at a regional level, through crucially, provide better information on the availability chambers of commerce, to start to discuss what is of and demand for credit. That point was raised by the happening in the sector on a regional basis. It is not Chair of the Select Committee and by my hon. Friend only about what is going on in London and in the the Member for Argyll and Bute. headquarters; it is also about engaging in the regions. One of the things that prompted the proposal to That is an important part of the process. bring together better information is this debate. When I Much more data on mortgage lending are available talk to banks’ chief executive officers, as I do regularly, through the Council of Mortgage Lenders, which they say that they have enough capacity to lend to small publishes regional and national data. A positive story businesses, but that the demand is not there. When we on that from Scotland is that mortgages to the value of talk to small businesses—hon. Members have raised £1.4 billion were advanced there in the second quarter, various examples from their own constituencies—they compared with £1.1 billion in the first quarter. That say that they do not believe the banks are interesting in increase in Scotland is actually greater than the listening. Part of that might be a pricing issue. The increase for the rest of the UK as a whole, so clearly we survey, which will be based on information supplied by should recognise that there is strength in the Scottish the banks but prepared independently of the banks, will housing market. address those issues and raise the quality of information. It will enable us to scrutinise the banks more closely In addition to the enhanced information requirements about their lending practices, including the rate at which that banks are committed to, they have agreed to establish they are lending. and invest in a new business growth fund, which will build up to £1.5 billion. That will help to address the equity gap and will be aimed at investments in the David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con): This discussion £2 million to £10 million bracket. All previous Governments has always struck me as a bit odd, because banks need have thought about and tried to fill that gap. The banks to lend to make money. I understand the things that the are going to try to fill it in that practical way, as 3i, or Government are doing—the two things that the Minister the Industrial and Commercial Finance Corporation, mentioned—but are there not two real issues here? did in the past. We have been absolutely clear that First, it is not that UK banks are lending less; it is banks need to improve the lending environment for simply that a lot of foreign banks have left the market small businesses, and we welcome the taskforce’s report and UK banks have not filled that gap. as an important first step. It is now important that banks deliver on that. Secondly, the banks’ real issue is the requirement that has been placed on them to rebuild their balance sheets Bonuses were referred to several times in the debate. and to change their credit ratios in the run up to Basel 3. We need to bring about a cultural change in the sector. They have less money because the Government are The issues on bonuses that were mentioned in the report effectively telling them to do two contradictory things: are at the heart of that. Recent stories of bank bonuses to lend more; and to rebuild their balance sheets and have caused concern, which is understandable given the have better capital ratios. current environment. 177WH Banking in Scotland14 OCTOBER 2010 Banking in Scotland 178WH

The Government are taking action. We have already ourselves to those aspects that impact on Scotland. introduced a permanent bank levy, which will raise However, I was heartened by what he said about £2.5 billion—something the previous Government refused encouraging the mutual sector. Several of my colleagues, to do—and we will shortly consult on a remuneration particularly my hon. Friend the Member for Kilmarnock disclosure regime that will require the disclosure of and Loudoun (Cathy Jamieson), will be looking at ways detailed pay information from large banking organisations in which we can have a discussion about the mutual operating in the UK. Performance-related pay is an sector in Scotland. I hope that in due course we will important part of rewarding valuable contributions, have some dialogue with the Minister on that. As we but it must be reward for long-term success that takes have done elsewhere, we hope to have some informal into account an appropriate level of risk. It is important sessions with witnesses before moving to formal hearings not to abolish bonuses, but to ensure that they encourage and visits, which will be helpful. the right sort of behaviour. We are likely to support some of the changes that the The FSA issued a consultation paper on a revised Minister outlined that seem to be moving in the right remuneration code of practice in July, laying out detailed direction, but there are areas on which we would like principles that will require not only large banks, but a ongoing dialogue and input from his staff when we wider range of financial services firms, to establish prepare documents. It is not immediately clear, for remuneration policies that are consistent with effective example, how overdraft charges will be handled. It risk management on a proportionate basis. The Government seems to me that there is a need for ongoing discussion are also exploring with international partners the costs on how those proposals will be implemented and what and benefits of a financial activities tax on profits and their impact will be. remuneration. When I talk to banks operating in the I welcome the fact, which the report made clear, that UK, they say that the UK regime is tougher than those Scotland remains a good place to do financial services in place elsewhere in the world. That is a matter of business. The question now is about how the Committee complaint for them, but I think that it is something adds value to that whole exercise. In our discussions, we from which we can take a degree of satisfaction. have identified several areas where the system seems to In conclusion, the UK economy turned a corner in be breaking down. [Interruption.] I thought that that 2010, but the recovery of both our economy and our was a nationalist returning, having mentioned the arc of financial services industry will necessarily be gradual. It prosperity, but it is not. is vital that we act now to support a sustained recovery, The construction, road haulage and video games backed by a resilient financial services industry that industries—the three industrial groups that we met—all serves the needs of consumers and the broader economy. said that the banks did not understand them properly. In that recovery, Scotland will continue to be proud of We ought to turn our attention to various steps that we its long history in providing financial services and of can take to improve those relationships. the new financial centres that are emerging. It strikes me as entirely appropriate that Scotland, which pioneered the modern-day ATM, should now host the headquarters Fiona O’Donnell (East Lothian) (Lab): Perhaps I of one of our new financial services players, Tesco could provide more recent information than the Minister Personal Finance. We are confident that the Government’s did. The Bank of England’s Agents’ summary of business proposals will restore to Scotland a secure, profitable conditions in September reported that: and sustainable banking sector that will be capable of “Smaller businesses, and those operating in the construction serving the customers, businesses and economy of Scotland. and property sectors, continued to report difficulty in accessing affordable finance. For these businesses, fees and spreads remained significantly higher than pre-crisis levels”. 4.36 pm Does my hon. Friend agree that there is further work to Mr Davidson: I express my gratitude to all those who be done in those areas? have contributed, not only to the debate, but to the report. That includes our witnesses and those who Mr Davidson: That is a helpful contribution—there provided written evidence. Some of the contributions clearly is further work to be done in those areas—which have been excellent. I hope that the Government Whips runs along the lines of not only our report but, to be have taken note of the expressions of undying loyalty fair, the Minister’s contribution. The Government recognise that were made by some of the newer Members. that more work needs to be done. Nevertheless, I am sure that they will develop out of We need to continue to focus on the two elements of that in due course. I also thank the staff of the Scottish lending—mortgage lending and lending to businesses—and Affairs Committee for all their work in preparing for also on how the banking industry deals with its customers. the debate and the report. The Minister has advanced general principles and rules, When I was much younger, there used to be various but the question is whether they will be implemented in cartoon characters who could rub a brass lamp and say, practice, and we will want to follow through on that. “Abracadabra”, so that a genie appeared. Earlier, I The interventions by the Government in several areas mentioned the arc of prosperity and a nationalist appeared. are very much to be welcomed, and I have no hesitation In some mysterious way, he disappeared thereafter. I in welcoming something that is said by the Government. have mentioned the arc of prosperity again, so I am New Members will no doubt recognise that no thunderbolt waiting to see whether he will pop in again has arrived and, therefore, that it is entirely possible for The wider matters to which the Minister referred—I people from one party to recognise that something done understand entirely why he did so—are more the by a different party is good. I hope that the new responsibility of the Treasury Committee than of our Members who are here will undertake to pass that on to Committee. We have tended—rightly, I believe—to restrict colleagues who have left the Chamber. 179WH Banking in Scotland14 OCTOBER 2010 Banking in Scotland 180WH

[Mr Davidson] economy of Scotland. I hope that we continue to work together for the next couple of years or so. In conclusion, this has been an excellent exercise. We Question put and agreed to. have heard witnesses, drawn up the report, held this debate today and come to a general consensus on the importance of the banking industry to Scotland and 4.42 pm the need to go forward working together to improve the Sitting adjourned. 25WS Written Ministerial Statements14 OCTOBER 2010 Written Ministerial Statements 26WS

be more difficult because changes in circumstances can Written Ministerial lead to one-off spikes in pension accruals. We have sought to mitigate the impact of this through a more Statements generous AA than we originally proposed. Further, where the pension tax charge exceeds the AA, we have proposed that unused allowance from up to the three Thursday 14 October 2010 previous years will be carried forward to offset against the excess contribution. In the interests of fairness, this TREASURY will be available for DB and DC schemes. This will provide protection for the vast majority of people on Restricting Pensions Tax Relief moderate incomes. In the exceptional cases where this mitigation is not sufficient, we will introduce further measures to ensure that individuals will not have to pay The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr Mark large charges from their current income. We will consult Hoban): The Government provide generous tax relief to on options to give individuals and schemes more flexibility save for a pension, to encourage individuals to take over the payment of these charges in November 2010. responsibility for retirement planning and to recognise that pensions are less flexible than other forms of saving. The cost of tax relief net of income tax paid on pensions BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS paid doubled under the last Government to around £19 billion per annum by 2008-09. Additional Freedom (Further Education Colleges) To ensure that pensions tax relief remains fair and affordable, the Government confirmed in the June Budget The Minister for Further Education, Skills and Lifelong that they would proceed with the previous Government’s Learning (Mr John Hayes): On Wednesday 13 October, goal to reduce the cost of pensions tax relief by about the Office for National Statistics (ONS) announced that £4 billion per annum. It was clear, however, that the it has now chosen to reclassify general further education previous Government’s approach to achieving this colleges as part of central Government. introduced significant complexity into the tax system, undermined pension saving and damaged UK businesses This decision results from powers provided in the and competitiveness. Further and Higher Education Act 1992. General further education colleges had previously been classified as part We announced in the June Budget that we would seek of the private sector. an alternative approach that limited the amount of tax relief that those who make the highest pension contribution This decision will have implications for the way that receive, while ensuring generous incentives and flexibility colleges are treated for national accounts purposes and for the vast majority of pension savers. We believed that therefore may impact on the collection and monitoring such a system would be fairer, preserve incentives to of financial information from institutions. However, we save and would lessen the impact on the ability of UK do not expect it will have any direct impact on colleges businesses to attract and retain talent. This view has for the remainder of the financial year. been confirmed by the response to the informal consultation I have already written to the governing bodies of we held over the summer. further education colleges reiterating the Government’s So today, the Government are announcing that, from commitment to reduce unnecessary administrative burdens April 2011, the annual allowance (AA) for tax-privileged on colleges, thereby giving them the freedom to make pension saving will be reduced from £255,000 to £50,000 their own judgments and decisions about how they and that from April 2012 the lifetime allowance (LTA) work with partners, and how best to manage their will be reduced from £1.8 million to £1.5 million. These internal affairs for the benefit of learners, employers changes will generate around £4 billion annual revenue and wider communities. in the steady state, protecting public finances. As part of this work the Department for Business Because we want a system that balances the needs of Innovation and Skills is exploring options to bring those in defined benefit (DB) and defined contribution forward legislation that will seek to repeal the requirement (DC) schemes, the reduced AA applies to both types of on further education colleges to secure the consent of schemes. Further, the deemed contributions to DB schemes the chief executive of Skills Funding before borrowing will be calculated via a simple “flat factor” method. money. The Department will also review all the conditions Reflecting the Government Actuary’s advice, the level in the financial memorandum between colleges and the of the factor will be set at 16. Again, this achieves a fair Skills Funding Agency as part of the wider assessment balance between DB and DC schemes. The Government of freedoms. Actuary’s report is publicly available on the HM Treasury I will continue to keep the House informed as our website from today. plans are further developed and refined. More detail on the policy specification and impacts can be found in a summary of responses to the July CABINET OFFICE discussion document, and draft clauses for the AA regime (including transitional arrangements), also available Public Bodies Reform on the website from today. The Government anticipate that most individuals and employers will look to adapt their pension saving The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster behaviour and remuneration terms to ensure that their General (Mr Francis Maude): The coalition Government pension contributions remain below the AA. However, are committed to review public bodies, with the aim of we recognise that for traditional DB schemes this will increasing accountability for actions carried out on 27WS Written Ministerial Statements14 OCTOBER 2010 Written Ministerial Statements 28WS behalf of the state. Today I am placing in the Library of to working with chairs and chief executives of these the House my proposals for the reform of public bodies, bodies to ensure that change is conducted as fairly and which summarises previous announcements and adds smoothly as possible. further proposals. Copies will also be available in the To enable these proposed changes, the Government Vote Office. In addition, I will make an oral statement will shortly introduce a Public Bodies Bill, which will to the House today. give Ministers power to make changes to named statutory The landscape for public bodies needs radical reform bodies. Other forthcoming legislation, such as the Education to increase transparency and accountability, to cut out Bill and the Localism Bill will also be used to make duplication of activity, and to discontinue activities changes directly. which are simply no longer needed. I believe that these reforms will increase accountability This public expect Ministers to take responsibility for in public life, while making savings and driving out what the Government do, and not leave this to people inefficiency and waste. or bodies that are unelected. In the past, too many public bodies have been established without proper “Building a Stronger Civil Society” thought, and allowed to remain when their mission has long been accomplished. This has meant that elected The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Mr Nick politicians have been able to avoid making difficult and Hurd): I am today publishing a strategy for voluntary tough decisions. This is a direct challenge to accountability and community groups, charities and social enterprises. and is contrary to openness and transparency in public The document sets out the scale and nature of the services that this Government seek to achieve. opportunities being made available to civil society So the Government’s presumption is that state activity, organisations as part of the Government’s wider reform if needed at all, should be undertaken by bodies that are agenda, and spells out some of the practical measures democratically accountable at either national or local that the Government are taking to support this vital level. A body should only exist as a quango if it meets sector. one of three tests, to which my review has subjected all I am also today publishing a Cabinet Office consultation existing public bodies. These tests are: document, asking for views on how infrastructure support Does it perform a technical function? for frontline civil society organisations can be improved. Do its activities require political impartiality? I have placed copies of both documents in the Libraries Does it need to act independently to establish facts? of both Houses. The documents are also available on the Cabinet Office website at: www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk. This is a work in progress. A number of changes have already been announced. A number of bodies remain under consideration, with reviews still under way. All DEFENCE remaining public bodies will be subject to a rigorous Afghanistan: Training triennial review to ensure that the previous pattern of public bodies often outliving the purpose for which they were established is not repeated. The Secretary of State for Defence (Dr Liam Fox): All the changes proposed here will be delivered within Over the past few months, the UK and our coalition Departments’ spending review settlements. Those bodies partners in Afghanistan have carried out a rebalancing whose status is being retained may be subject to further of forces within the area of operations covered by reforms following the spending review, in the same way Regional Command (South West). In a counter-insurgency as all other parts of the public sector. campaign, the people are the prize. It is hugely important that we strike the right balance between the numbers of My review process has covered 679 HM Government’s the civilian population and the size of the security non-departmental public bodies (NDPBs), as well as forces available to protect them. Over the summer, the 222 other statutory bodies such as some non-ministerial UK has transferred security responsibility for Kajaki, Departments and some public corporations. Substantial Musa Qala and Sangin to our US allies in order to reforms are proposed for over half of these bodies 481. concentrate British forces in the key terrain of central The Government propose that 192 will cease to be Helmand where they are making steady progress in public bodies. Where it is clear that a public body has countering the threat from insurgents and nurturing the accomplished its mission and no longer needs to exist, it conditions necessary for secure and stable development will be abolished. This will be through moving it within in the region. a Government Department, where a Minister will be accountable for its activities, into local government, or As a result of this rebalancing of our forces, we plan into the charity or private sectors, or ceasing their work to increase by a total of over 320 the number of troops altogether. Some 118 would be merged down into 57 bodies, directly involved in the institutional training and removing wasteful and complicating duplication of effort. development of the Afghan national security forces. Some 171 are proposed for substantial reform while This is in line with the coalition’s intent to increase the retaining their current status. number of troops directly involved in enhancing the capability of Afghan forces so that the Afghans, in time, Many public bodies will be retained and will remain can take the lead for security in their country. Of these at arm’s length from Government. They will be expected additional troops, around 170 will be formally accredited to become more open, accountable and efficient. Non- on the NATO combined joint statement of requirement, departmental bodies which are being retained will be as agreed at the recent NATO force generation conference, subject to a new framework and triennial review process, while some 150 will take on additional roles that we on which I will bring forward proposals in the new year. have identified as a priority in central Helmand. A I want to acknowledge the dedication and hard work significant proportion of these troops will be involved of those who work in public bodies. We are committed in training the Afghan national police. 29WS Written Ministerial Statements14 OCTOBER 2010 Written Ministerial Statements 30WS

The uplift in the number of those involved in institutional the position on the cost-effectiveness of generic substitution training and development will not result in a change to implementation is inconclusive. There is a strong sense that the UK’s established and enduring conventional force the effort involved in implementing a formal generic substitution level of 9,500 personnel. scheme was simply too great for the potential gain; and other, less nationally prescriptive mechanisms for further supporting the use of generic medicines can be explored. HEALTH The coalition Government intend to stand by the 2009 PPRS agreement, which expires at the end of 2013. However, in the light of the public consultation Learning Disabilities or Mental Illness Development of findings, the Department will not be progressing any Services further the implementation of generic substitution. Instead, the Department will be looking at further ways to The Minister of State, Department of Health support the use of generic medicines in a way that is (Paul Burstow): I am today laying before Parliament acceptable to patients, recognising that there are still the 14th report prepared pursuant to section 11 of some savings that can potentially be delivered in this the Disabled Persons (Services, Consultation and area. Representation) Act 1986 as amended by the Health Further details can be found at: http://www.dh.gov.uk/ and Social Care Act 2001. The report sets out the main en/Consultations/Responsestoconsultations/ developments in mental health and learning disabilities DH_120431 services that have taken place since the 13th report in Copies of both the Government response to the 2003. It also provides the statistical data required under consultation and the analysis of responses report have section 11(1)(b) of the Act. been placed in the Library and copies are available for A report under section 11 has not been published hon. Members from the Vote office. since 2003. We have published information about service and policy developments, but this information has not been laid before Parliament. The Department apologises Six Lives: The Provision of Public Services to People unreservedly to Parliament for this oversight by the with Learning Disabilities previous Government. “Development of services for people with learning disabilities or mental illness in England—14th report” is in the Library and copies are available to hon. Members The Minister of State, Department of Health (Paul from the Vote Office. Burstow): I am pleased to announce that I have today published the Department of Health’s progress report in response to the recommendations of the parliamentary Generic Medicines and health service ombudsman and local government ombudsman in their March 2009 report “Six lives: the provision of public services to people with learning The Minister of State, Department of Health (Mr Simon disabilities”. Burns): I am today publishing the Government’s response to the consultation on the proposals to implement The report provides an assessment of progress generic substitution of medicines in primary care. Alongside made in health and social care services to fulfil the it a report of the analysis of responses is also published. recommendations of “Six Lives” and improve health care and treatment for people with learning disabilities. The pharmaceutical price regulation scheme 2009 This follows a series of reports that highlighted failures committed to the introduction of generic substitution in adequately meeting the needs of this group of people. in primary care in the national health service, subject to The report has been placed in the Library and copies discussion with affected parties. Further to discussions are available to hon. Members in the Vote Office. The with, and views expressed by, stakeholders during 2009, report is also available at: the Department undertook a public consultation on proposals to implement generic substitution in primary http://www.dh.gov.uk/en/Publicationsandstatistics/ care between 5 January and 30 March 2010, consulting Publications/PublicationsPolicyAndGuidance/DH_120251 on three options, including non-implementation. In total, 423 organisations and individuals submitted written responses. In addition, 107 delegates attended Support for Those Affected by Contaminated Blood Department of Health listening events, and their comments were recorded as part of the consultation. Greenstreet Berman, an independent social research The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health company, was appointed to analyse the responses on (Anne Milton): On 16 April 2010 judgment was handed behalf of the Department following a competitive tender down on a judicial review of a decision made by the process run by the Central Office of Information. previous Government not to accept a recommendation The analysis of responses showed no clear consensus made in the report of Lord Archer of Sandwell’s with regards to a preferred option going forward. Three independent inquiry into infections transmitted some key points were apparent: decades ago through contaminated blood products. The recommendation in question, 6(h), which concerned there was a strongly held perception by respondents that generic substitution posed a threat to patient safety. If the payments to those affected by this tragedy, stated that: proposals were to be implemented, these concerns would “We suggest that payments should be at least the equivalent of arise in the front-line delivery of NHS services, impacting on those payable under the scheme which applies at any time in [the the work load of health care professionals; Republic of] Ireland”. 31WS Written Ministerial Statements14 OCTOBER 2010 Written Ministerial Statements 32WS

The judgment found against the Government, therefore the Secretary of State for Justice and I attended on I am now required to look again at this recommendation, behalf of the United Kingdom. The following issues and decide whether or not to accept it. were discussed at the Council: Having carefully compared the circumstances pertaining The first measure on the roadmap, the right to here and in the Republic of Ireland during the period interpretation and translation in criminal proceedings, when most of the infections occurred, and having taken was adopted by the Council as an A point. The directive account of the fact that this tragedy similarly affected sets minimum standards as regards interpretation and many other countries; I do not consider there is a case translation in criminal proceedings throughout the for accepting Lord Archer’s recommendation 6(h) that European Union. The aim of the proposal is to ensure levels of payment here should match those made in that, if suspects and defendants do not understand or Ireland. Every country must make its own decisions on speak the language used, they are entitled to interpretation financial support for those affected, taking account of from the time they are made aware that they are suspected its own particular circumstances, and affordability. The or accused until the proceedings reach their conclusion, scheme in Ireland was set up on that basis, and has not including any appeal. Suspected or accused persons will been replicated in any other country, as far as we know. also be entitled to have some essential documents translated, However, our ex-gratia payment schemes for HIV compare so they can fully understand the case against them. well with those of other countries. The interior session began with the Commission In addition, it is estimated that implementing a similar introducing two legal migration proposals: (i) a directive scheme to Ireland’s here in the UK, would cost in excess establishing the conditions of entry and residence of of £3 billion. third-country nationals entering the EU through an I recognise that this decision will disappoint those intra-company transfer and (ii) a directive on the conditions who are living with serious health problems as a result of entry and residence of third-country nationals for of their infections, as well as their families and the the purposes of seasonal employment. The directives families of those who have already died. During the were intended to respond to labour market needs, boost summer I met representatives of those affected, and EU competitiveness and tackle illegal immigration. Neither heard first hand about the hardships that they have to directive created a right to admission. The presidency face on a daily basis. stated that negotiations would continue in working I believe that to a large extent the recommendations groups on both directives to find solutions to member are already in place. The previous Government increased states’ concerns. The UK will decide whether to opt into the level of payments to those affected with HIV to a the proposals by the 15 October. minimum of £12,800 per annum, and has increased the Following this there was a political discussion on the discretionary funding available to their dependents. I do Common European Asylum System (CEAS) where the not intend to revisit that decision, but I am persuaded presidency reminded member states that the 2012 deadline that there are some aspects of Lord Archer’s was approaching. The presidency was committed to recommendations that should be looked at afresh. These moving forward on the Dublin and Eurodac regulations include: and long-term residents and qualification directives. the level of ex-gratia payments made to those affected by The UK stated that it did not favour further legislation hepatitis C, including financial support for their spouses and and preferred a focus on practical co-operation, and dependants, and taking account of the level of payments confirmed that it was committed to work at a practical made to those infected with HIV in the UK and via schemes level to spread best practice and ensure solidarity. The in other countries; UK was already involved in capacity-building for asylum the mechanisms by which all ex-gratia payments are made; decision making in member states, and was prepared to access to insurance; do more. The UK highlighted that the time was right prescription charges; for the Commission to demonstrate strong leadership access to nursing and other care services in the community. to co-ordinate these efforts, to ensure an effective delivery I am initiating a review of the issues raised by these mechanism while undertaking more work with countries recommendations, which will take place in the context of origin. The Commission confirmed that the European of the current financial climate and results of the spending Asylum Support Office (EASO) would be able to start review. Terms of reference have been placed in the work in January and that the work programme and the Library. I expect to be able to report the outcome of budget were being developed. this work and my intentions by the end of 2010. I will be During the Interior Ministers lunch, Ministers discussed speaking to the other UK Health Ministers to seek their the recent travel advice issued by the United States. Jane confirmation whether they wish to participate in reviewing Lute, Assistant Secretary for the Department of Homeland the UK-wide aspects within this timescale or whether I Security, attended. She stated that the recent advice on will proceed on an England only basis. travel to Europe was issued in order for the US public to be more vigilant. She explained that in the US they increasingly shared information with the public and private sector. HOME DEPARTMENT Following Jane Lute’s departure Ministers discussed EU threat alerts. There was widespread view that member Justice and Home Affairs Post-Council Statement states would be responsible for their own assessments, but there was a broad view that member states should give pre-notification of changes to EU colleagues. The Minister for Immigration (Damian Green): The After lunch the Council in Mixed Committee with Justice and Home Affairs (JHA) Council was held on Norway, Iceland, Liechtenstein and Switzerland (non-EU 7 and 8 October in Luxembourg. My right hon. Friend, Schengen states) received an update from the Commission 33WS Written Ministerial Statements14 OCTOBER 2010 Written Ministerial Statements 34WS that the EU visa information system (VIS) would not be decision (2004). The UK maintained its parliamentary ready in time for the planned go-live date of December scrutiny reserve on the text but gave its general support 2010. Member states had agreed it would now be rolled for the proposal. The Commission noted that the European out in June 2011. The delay had been caused by problems Parliament had not yet indicated its position, so it with the contractor and in member states’ preparations. would defend its proposal but would engage constructively The UK does not participate in VIS as it builds on an in negotiations. The presidency confirmed that negotiations area of the Schengen Acquis in which the UK does not on the remaining articles would continue with a view to participate. agreeing a general approach on the entire text at the Next there was a discussion on visa reciprocity in the December JHA Council. context of the Canadian decision to reintroduce visas The Commission then gave a presentation on the for Czech nationals. The Commission stated that further draft directive on the right to information in criminal discussion should wait until after they issued a report proceedings. This proposal is the second measure in the on visa reciprocity, due by the end of the year. roadmap to strengthen procedural rights in criminal The Commission presented a progress report and an proceedings. It aims to set common minimum standards updated comprehensive global schedule and budgetary and improve the rights of suspects and accused persons estimate for the second generation of the Schengen by ensuring that they receive information about their Information System (SIS II), during which it reiterated rights. The UK supported the concept of a letter of some of the reasons for the delay including the change rights and agreed that it was essential for suspects and in specification by the Council. On the issue of increased defendants to be made aware of their rights. The UK national costs, the Commission stated that it was still has yet to confirm whether it will be opting into this consulting internally on the use of the external border draft directive. fund. Next, the presidency provided an update on progress After Mixed Committee the Council held an orientation in the European Parliament on the European Protection debate on the negotiation of passenger name record Order, a measure designed to protect victims moving (PNR) agreements with the US, Canada and Australia. from one member state to another. The European The Commission explained that the PNR package aimed Parliament had an orientation vote in committee which to establish a coherent framework for the exchange of indicated support for a broad scope covering civil as data with third countries and proposed that negotiations well as criminal measures. It would seek to make progress with all three countries should start at the same time. in the Council on this complex proposal. The UK supported this approach and welcomed the The presidency then provided an information point Commission’s recognition that PNR was a crucial tool on negotiations on the proposed regulation implementing in the fight against terrorism and organised crime and enhanced co-operation in the field of law applicable to was looking forward to seeing the EU PNR directive divorce—Rome III. The UK is not participating in this appear in January 2011. The UK stated that it strongly measure and noted the update. believed that early publication of an instrument which During lunch. Ministers held an exchange of views covered intra-EU flights was vital to the safety and about the judicial dimension of the fight against terrorism. security of EU citizens. The Commission said it would The Commission stressed the importance of devoting propose the new EU PNR directive early next year. sufficient funding to measures to combat terrorism. The Commission presented its Communication on EU Counter-terrorism (CT) policy: main achievements Returns to Zimbabwe and future challenges, which provided a summary of EU activity since the launch of the EU CT Strategy in The Minister for Immigration (Damian Green): Iam 2005. One finding was that the threat from terrorism announcing today our intention to end the current was still live. The EU had not had a major terrorist suspension of enforced returns of failed asylum seekers attack since 2005, not because no attempt had been to Zimbabwe. There are some Zimbabweans who continue made, but because those responsible for our security to have a well-founded fear of persecution; we continue had done a very good job. to grant protection to those people. As with any other The Commission also presented its communication nationality, every case is considered on its individual on information management and stated the purpose of merits and against the background of the latest available the exercise was to provide overview of the various country information from a wide range of reliable sources important information systems which existed, such as including international organisations, non-governmental the terrorist finance tracking programme and the data organisations and the Foreign and Commonwealth Office. retention directive. The courts have found that not all Zimbabweans are During AOB, the Commission provided details of in need of international protection and given the improved the Memorandum of Understanding signed with Libya situation on the ground in Zimbabwe since the formation and there was a discussion on the framework agreement of the inclusive Government in 2009, the time is now with that country. The UK underlined the importance right to bring our policy on returns of failed Zimbabwean of consulting and involving member states in this kind asylum seekers into line with that on every other country. of initiative. This will mean that failed asylum seekers from Zimbabwe The justice session began with a debate about the will from now on be treated in exactly the same way as criminal law articles (articles 1-13, except article 10) in failed asylum seekers of all other countries when it the draft directive on combating sexual abuse and comes to enforcing returns. exploitation of children and child pornography. This Those found not to be in need of protection have directive seeks to ensure that criminal activities to sexually always been expected to return home. We prefer these exploit children, including misuse of the internet, individuals to return voluntarily and many hundreds are more fully covered than in the existing framework have done so. It is in everyone’s interest for people to 35WS Written Ministerial Statements14 OCTOBER 2010 Written Ministerial Statements 36WS return to Zimbabwe and use their skills to support There is one “mixed” measure currently under negotiation themselves and help rebuild the country. The Government which includes provisions which build on those elements of support this process and are in active dialogue with the Schengen acquis to which we are bound: a Council Zimbabweans to explore how this process can be further regulation to establish an agency for the purposes of managing existing IT systems in the area of Justice and Home Affairs. assisted. The deadline by which the UK had to notify its decision to It remains open to Zimbabweans to return home opt out of that measure was 21 June 2010; the UK made no voluntarily under one of the assisted voluntary return such notification. The regulation also includes ex-title IV (AVR) programmes which are available for individuals TEC (now title V TFEU) provisions to which the UK opted of all nationalities. There are three programmes available in on 23 September 2009. under which all returnees receive support in acquiring Following the entry into force of the Lisbon treaty, excluding travel documentation, flight costs to their country of the IT agency, there have been 14 measures for which the origin and onward domestic transport, airport assistance Home Office has responsibility to which the title V TFEU opt-in has applied. The UK has opted in to nine and out of at departure and arrival airports and, for those eligible, three, and is considering a further two published proposals up to £1,500 worth of reintegration assistance per person where the Government will take a decision within three including a £500 relocation grant on departure for months. There have been three measures to which the Schengen immediate resettlement needs and, once home, a range opt-out applied (excluding the IT agency). The UK is of reintegration options which are delivered “in kind”. participating in all three. The Immigration and Asylum Chamber of the Unified Additional information on the dates when all these measures Tribunal Service (IAC) will be hearing in the near future were presented, when the UK signalled its acceptance at the a further country guidance case on general safety of Council, when they were adopted and entered into force are return to Zimbabwe which we expect to reflect the not held centrally and could only be obtained at disproportionate cost. However, all decisions to opt-in to or out of JHA improvements in Zimbabwe since the previous country measures are notified to Parliament at the time they are guidance case was decided in 2008. Therefore, although made. The first annual report will be presented to Parliament there is no reason why Zimbabweans who both we, and in December providing retrospective information on the the courts, have found not to be in need of protection UK’s application of the opt-in protocol from 1 December should not now be removed, we will not enforce the first 2009 to 1 December 2010, a year since the Lisbon treaty returns until the IAC has delivered its determination. came into force”. Those who have no right to remain in the UK, and who Table 1 and table 2 referred to in the corrected answer chose not to return voluntarily, will then face enforced will be placed in the House Libraries. return, in exactly the same way as failed asylum seekers of all other countries. JUSTICE This change in asylum policy which I have announced today does not reflect any change in our categorical Her Majesty’s Courts Service opposition to human rights abuses in Zimbabwe. We will continue to call, both bilaterally and with our international partners, for an end to all such abuses and The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice the restoration of internationally accepted human rights (Mr Jonathan Djanogly): In March 2010 a list of key standards in Zimbabwe. performance indicators was published for Her Majesty’s Courts Service for 2010-11. One of these indicators was Schengen Agreement (Correction to Written Answer) “to maintain the “very satisfied” element of the HMCS court user satisfaction survey at or above the 2007-08 The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the baseline of 41%”. The data to measure this indicator Home Department (James Brokenshire): I regret to inform are usually captured using an independent survey of that House that there were inaccuracies in an answer court users. to parliamentary questions 15306, 15307, 15308, 15309, In April 2011 HMCS and the Tribunals Service will 15310 and 15391 (linked) on 15 September 2010, Official come together to form a new integrated agency. Report, columns 1077-78W. Commissioning new surveys for 2010-11 would not The response contained inaccurate statistics and referred represent good value for money as the results would be to measures which are not the responsibility of the of limited value and would not be available until after Home Office and which are therefore outside the scope the creation of the new agency. I have, therefore, decided of the question. that the survey used to report against this performance I can confirm that the answer should have read as indicator should not go ahead. follows: HMCS remains committed to providing good customer “The tables placed in the Libraries of both Houses set out service to all court users across England and Wales. measures for which the Home Secretary is responsible which User satisfaction remains strong with 82% of court have been presented to the Council pursuant to title IV of users satisfied overall, with 40% of those being “very the treaty establishing the European Community (“TEC satisfied”. The new integrated courts and tribunals service pre-Lisbon measures”) and title V of the treaty on the will continue to deliver improvements in the services functioning of the European Union (“TFEU post-Lisbon measures” from 1 December 2009) attracting the UK opt-in. provided for courts and tribunal users. They also set out measures presented following the entry Updating the Coroner System into force of the Lisbon treaty pursuant to those elements of the Schengen acquis in which the UK participates (the police and criminal justice elements) and, pre-Lisbon those measures building on Schengen from which the UK was excluded. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice The Lisbon treaty introduced a right for the UK to opt (Mr Jonathan Djanogly): I wish to make a statement to out of Schengen building measures where we were automatically announce plans for changes to the coroner system in bound prior to its entry into force. England and Wales. 37WS Written Ministerial Statements14 OCTOBER 2010 Written Ministerial Statements 38WS

We believe the proposals I am putting forward today His Honour Judge Peter Thornton QC, a Senior will bring improvements to the system, and address Circuit Judge at the Central Criminal Court (Old Bailey), current inconsistencies and inefficiencies in the delivery was appointed by the Lord Chief Justice, Lord Judge, of services to bereaved families. to the post of Chief Coroner under section 35 and We need to create minimum national standards and schedule 8 of the Coroners and Justice Act 2009 after issue improved guidance on important procedures such those provisions came into force on 1 February 2010 as the commissioning of post-mortem examinations, but had not yet taken up his duties. In the light of our while supporting the local management and delivery of intention to abolish the post he will now not do so but I the service. wish to express my gratitude to Judge Thornton for his considerable patience, and advice to the Department, To that end, we plan to bring forward some of the during the period of this policy review. measures from part 1 of the Coroners and Justice Act 2009. We will continue to work collaboratively with coroners, Our aims are to: local government and police authorities to deliver service Improve the coroner system so that inquests are timely and improvements. We will also explore with voluntary sector bereaved people are provided with sufficient information organisations how we can work together better, so as to and support throughout the process. provide further support for people when they suffer a Improve the effectiveness of inquests, so cases are conducted sudden or unexpected bereavement. in the most appropriate district, information is better shared We believe that our proposals will deliver an improved between coroners and other agencies and investigations are and more flexible service to bereaved families and also better informed by medical advice. to coroners, their staff and others who work within or Support local service management and delivery to ensure have an interest in the coronial system. I would like to coroners and their officers have the skills to carry out their take this opportunity to pay tribute to their dedication jobs and best practice is shared between coroner districts and hard work and to recognise the enormous value of and between the local authorities which fund them. the service they provide. We will achieve this by: Commencing provisions enabling operational problems facing coroners to be addressed. TRANSPORT Reviewing and updating the coroners rules. Issuing and monitoring best practice guidance, including a EU Transport Council - 15 October 2010 national charter for bereaved families. Maintaining and improving training for coroners and their officers. The Secretary of State for Transport (Mr Philip Encouraging the further establishment of support services Hammond): The first Transport Council of the Belgian provided by the voluntary sector to those attending inquests. presidency will take place in Luxembourg on 15 October. We will make it simpler for coroners to transfer cases The Council will be asked to reach a political agreement between each other, for the convenience of bereaved on the directive amending Directive 1999/62 on charging families and to reduce delays. We will also make it of heavy goods vehicles (the Eurovignette directive). possible for post-mortem and related examinations to The directive governs the taxation of lorries, including take place at the most appropriate specialist centre, by rules for the charging of access to road infrastructure removing the geographical restrictions of the Coroners where member states choose to do this. The proposed Act 1988. amendments include the removal of references to mandatory hypothecation of revenues and proposals We aim to commence these measures in line with the to allow charges to be set flexibly within the overall cap original deadline of April 2012. Some may be brought to reflect externalities in areas and at times when there in earlier than that. is congestion. We strongly support the former and We will continue to work across Government to identify believe the latter represents an acceptable approach to whether and how we can implement other measures in dealing with congestion. The amendments will also the 2009 Act. We will continue to work closely with include proposals to allow member states discretion not Health Ministers to implement proposed new death to include goods vehicles weighing less than 12 tonnes certification measures so causes of death are recorded in charging schemes—reflecting the fact that few such more accurately, public health measures are improved, vehicles are involved in international traffic—and some and any improper practices by doctors are detected. In limitation of the Commission’s powers to propose doing so, we will take account of the responses to the amendments to minimum and maximum rates using consultation paper “Reform of the Coroner System delegated acts. In particular the Commission’s power to Next Stage: Preparing for Implementation”. I have today increase the minimum rates of lorry circulation taxes, published the Government’s response to that paper, and such as goods vehicle VED, has been removed. We have placed a copy in the Libraries of both Houses. support both of these proposals However, after careful consideration, we have decided We remain concerned that this directive, which impacts that in the current economic climate we cannot go on national charging regimes and hence on tax, rests on ahead with plans to implement national leadership from a transport legal base and will continue to press our a Chief Coroner, an appeals system, or a medical adviser. position that these issues should be agreed by unanimity. We have proposed that the abolition of the office of the We will also continue to press the case for increasing Chief Coroner should be included in the Public Bodies maximum daily rates for time-based charging. Bill, which was announced earlier today and we are There will be an exchange of views on strategy and further considering the transfer of some of the Chief the future of transport 2010-2020. This will give Ministers Coroner’s functions to suitable alternative bodies. an opportunity to set out their position on issues expected 39WS Written Ministerial Statements14 OCTOBER 2010 Written Ministerial Statements 40WS to be covered in the European Commission’s forthcoming Council finally endorses for assessment and monitoring White Paper on transport policy, prior to the more must adhere to the relevant treaty basis. On social detailed analysis which will follow publication. I will protection, Council will adopt the Social Protection reiterate the UK’s commitment to climate change mitigation Committee opinion and hold another orientation debate, measures in transport and to better regulation across in which the UK will stress the need to respect subsidiarity the board. and focus on the outcomes of poverty reduction through The Council will be asked to adopt a mandate authorising exchange of experience, rather than the Commission the Commission to open negotiations with Brazil on a monitoring the situation in member states. comprehensive air transport agreement. The Government The Commission will provide information on the support the opening of negotiations on such an agreement. employment aspects of its flagship initiative, Youth on Under AOB the Commission will present their recent the Move. The UK welcomes the focus on supporting legislative proposal to recast the first rail package. There young people’s access to the job market through better will be no substantive discussion. education, training and mobility. Among items for adoption without debate (“A points”) The Council will adopt the employment guidelines the Council is expected to adopt conclusions on applications which were politically endorsed by the June European of the European global navigation satellite systems. Council (JEC) before the European Parliament (EP) consultation required by the treaty ended. In response to the EP report, the presidency only proposed amendments to the recitals so the JEC agreement stands. Council will WORK AND PENSIONS also adopt the Employment Committee opinion on active and positive transitions. The opinion is about The Employment, Social Policy, Health and Consumer making work pay and has focused on a life-cycle approach Affairs Council covering movement either from unemployment to employment or between jobs, giving more attention than previously to activation, skills and flexible working. The Minister of State, Department for Work and The Belgian presidency will provide information on Pensions (Chris Grayling): The Employment, Social Policy, the preparation for the Tripartite Social Summit, which Health and Consumer Affairs Council will be held on will discuss how to encourage more jobs as we come out 21 October 2010 in Luxembourg. Andy Lebrecht, UK of the recession. deputy permanent representative to the EU, will represent Under any other business, there will be information the United Kingdom. from the Commission on the Green Paper on pensions The main item on the agenda will be Europe 2020, and the presidency will provide an update on the work including two separate discussions on the employment being done at European level to promote the inclusion and social dimensions. On employment governance, of the Roma. There will also be information on various Council will adopt conclusions and hold an orientation conferences including the round table on poverty and debate. The UK will stress that what the December the conference on child poverty and child wellbeing. 357W Written Answers14 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 358W Written Answers to Business: Co-ownership Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for Questions Business, Innovation and Skills how many officials in his Department and its agencies have had training with an objective to develop knowledge of co-ownership Thursday 14 October 2010 structures. [17243]

Mr Prisk: Decisions are made locally on individuals’ developmental needs and this information is not held ATTORNEY-GENERAL centrally. This could be provided only at disproportionate cost. Telephone Tapping I have approached the chief executives of the Insolvency Service, Companies House, the National Measurement Mr Watson: To ask the Attorney-General (1) what Office, the Intellectual Property Office and the Skills discussions he has had with the Director of Public Funding Agency and they will respond to the hon. Prosecutions on telephone hacking and blagging since Member directly. his appointment; [17468] (2) if he will place in the Library a copy of the Letter from Gareth Jones, dated 14 October 2010: minutes of his recent meeting with the Director of I am replying on behalf of Companies House to your Parliamentary Public Prosecutions on telephone hacking and Question tabled 8 October 2010, UIN 17243 to the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills. blagging. [17446] No officials in Companies House have had training with an The Attorney-General: I regularly meet with the Director objective to develop knowledge of co-ownership structures. of Public Prosecutions to discuss a variety of issues in Letter from Geoff Russell, dated 12 October 2010: my statutory role of superintendence of the CPS. It is I am replying on behalf of the Skills Funding Agency to your not the practice of the AGO to disclose details of such Parliamentary Question tabled on 08 October 2010 (UIN 17243), meetings as was the case with previous Administrations. to the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills; how many officials in his Department and its agencies have had training with an objective to develop knowledge of co-ownership structures. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS The Skills Funding Agency has given no training with an objective to develop knowledge of co-ownership structures. Tuition Fees Letter from John Alty, dated 13 October 2010: I am responding in respect of the Intellectual Property Office 20. Gavin Shuker: To ask the Secretary of State for to your Parliamentary Question tabled 08/10/10, to the Minister Business, Innovation and Skills what assessment he has of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills. made of the effects on higher education participation The Intellectual Property Office has given no training with an among the poorest students of increases in tuition fees. objective to develop knowledge of co-ownership structures. [17276] Letter from Stephen Speed, dated 12 October 2010: The Secretary of State for Business Innovation and Skills has Mr Willetts: There are more students participating in asked me to reply to your question how many officials in his HE than ever before, with record numbers from all Department and its agencies have had training with an objective backgrounds. This indicates that students are not deterred to develop knowledge of co-ownership structures. from participation, providing that there is a suitable The Insolvency Service Executive Agency of the Department offer of financial support in place to help those who for Business, Innovation and Skills have had no staff who have need it. had training with an objective to develop knowledge of co-ownership structures. The coalition agreement makes clear that increasing social mobility and attracting more students from Letter from Peter Mason, dated 12 October 2010: disadvantaged backgrounds are key criteria for our I am responding in respect of the National Measurement response to Lord Browne’s recommendations on Higher Office to your Parliamentary Question tabled on 8th October to Education Funding and Student Finance. the Secretary of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, asking how many officials have had training with an objective to develop knowledge of co-ownership structures. Anti-counterfeiting Trade Agreement To date, no members of NMO staff have had training specifically linked to developing knowledge of co-ownership structures. Rehman Chishti: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what assessment he has Business: Government Assistance made of the potential effect on individuals of implementation of the draft Anti-Counterfeiting Trade Agreement. [16576] Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what steps he has Mr Davey: The Anti-Counterfeiting Trade Agreement taken to reduce the administrative requirements on (ACTA) does not intend to create new intellectual property applicants of the enterprise finance guarantee scheme; rights, laws or criminal offences in the UK or EU. As and what steps he plans to take to improve the such, the implementation of ACTA should not directly availability of seed capital for start-up businesses. impact individuals in the UK. [17404] 359W Written Answers14 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 360W

Mr Prisk: The time taken to process an application The report has 17 recommendations and the Government for an EFG backed loan is mainly determined by the welcome the progress made by the taskforce. internal processes of the lender concerned. There are relatively few additional administrative requirements Community Interest Companies for EFG compared with a normal loan. These primarily relate to ensuring EFG is used appropriately and that the relevant EU regulations on state aid are adhered to. Chris White: To ask the Secretary of State for Lenders have access to a web portal to determine EFG Business, Innovation and Skills how many community eligibility and approval of the loan guarantee. Overall, interest companies were started in (a) Warwick and lenders confirm that an EFG loan application only Leamington constituency, (b) Warwickshire, (c) the takes two to three days longer than it might take to West Midlands and (d) England in each of the last five process a commercial loan. years. [17428] Nonetheless, as speed and certainty is important for Mr Davey: The number of Community Interest EFG lending decisions, this Department has worked Companies (CICs) that were started in (a) Warwick with each of the main lenders, who account for over and Leamington constituency, (b) Warwickshire, 97% of the SME lending market, to introduce a processing (c) the West Midlands and (d) England in each of the target of 20 working days for all major lenders participating last five years are as follows: in the EFG to provide certainty for businesses on how long their applications will take to process. 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 Seed capital in the form of equity is vital for start up Warwick 00001 businesses where debt finance may not be the most and appropriate form of finance and equity may be a more Leamington realistic proposition. Early stage venture capital is available Warwickshire 12535 for businesses with high growth potential and this Department provides a range of publicly supported West 13 26 54 86 112 funds to provide early stage finance, focused on the Midlands ’equity gap’. England 191 602 746 1,046 1,177 The BIS Enterprise Capital Fund programme currently This statistical information is estimated using post comprises nine venture capital funds with a Government code data provided in the current registered office addresses commitment of more than £156 million for these funds. of CICs on the public register of companies. The emergency Budget announced an additional Enterprise Capital Fund of up to £37.5 million. Details can be found at the Capital for Enterprise Ltd website: Defence Equipment: Exports www.capitalforenterprise.gov.uk These venture capital funds are suitable for high growth John Glen: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, potential investments. These funds are complemented Innovation and Skills what assessment his Department by a range of regionally commissioned funds including has made of the security risks associated with the regional SME Venture Capital Loan Funds totalling granting of open general export licenses for military around £550 million of commitments up to 2013. There goods. [17460] are around 25 to 30 regional equity and loan funds currently (or imminently) active supporting seed, early Mr Prisk: Open general export licences (OGELs) stage and growth capital for SMEs, all underpinned by have been a key part of the UK’s export controls for objectives to enhance regional business and economic many years. They permit the export of less sensitive performance along with broader social and regeneration items to less sensitive destinations and as such they outputs attached to European Reconstruction and allow the Government to maintain a robust licensing Development Fund funding. regime while minimising administrative burdens for legitimate and low risk exports. These risks are managed Business: Loans through careful definition of the goods and destinations; by the terms and conditions applied to each OGEL including, in some cases, prior approval of the export Simon Hart: To ask the Secretary of State for by the MOD; and by a comprehensive programme of Business, Innovation and Skills what recent on-site compliance audits. All OGELs are kept under representations he has received on access to finance for review and they can be amended or withdrawn at any small businesses. [17259] time. Ann McKechin: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what recent Departmental Manpower representations he has received on access to finance for small businesses. [17262] Mr Blunkett: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills how many (a) civil Mr Prisk: The Government believe that improving servants and (b) external advisers are working on the access to finance is vital for small businesses. In response Browne review of higher education funding. [16672] to our formal consultation on access to credit we received more than 170 representations and we will be responding Mr Willetts: The review was supported by seven shortly. In addition, the British Bankers Association full-time civil servants seconded from the Government yesterday published their taskforce report on business for the duration of the review. No external advisers have lending. been employed by the review, although it has drawn on 361W Written Answers14 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 362W advice from a wide range of experts throughout its Mr Willetts: The review is yet to finalise its costs process, through events such as public hearings and precisely, but we estimate that these will be around calls for evidence. £120,000 in general administration and programme expenditure during the 11 months of its work, including Departmental Secondment the costs of research. There was also the cost of providing seven full-time staff who supported the review panel Chris Heaton-Harris: To ask the Secretary of State and who were seconded from the Government. for Business, Innovation and Skills whether any officials working in his Department are on secondment from companies or organisations in the banking sector. Higher Education: Overseas Students [16674]

Mr Davey: As at 11 October the Department’s record Mr Evennett: To ask the Secretary of State for show that BIS currently has 27 secondees. Business, Innovation and Skills how many international students graduated from English higher The Department does not record centrally the sectors education institutions and remained in the UK for from which secondees originate. (a) employment and (b) further study in the latest Export Credit Guarantees: Trinidad and Tobago period for which figures are available. [15826]

Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Willetts: Information on the destinations of graduates Business, Innovation and Skills whether the Export six months after leaving is collected by the Higher Credits Guarantee Department has received an Education Statistics Agency (HESA) via the Destinations application in respect of the sale of offshore patrol of Leavers from Higher Education (DLHE) survey. vessels to Trinidad and Tobago; and if he will make a Information is only collected for UK domiciled and statement. [17432] other EU graduates. Not all graduates respond to the survey so there is a number whose circumstances after Mr Davey: ECGD has no such current application. leaving are unknown. As reported in its annual review for 2007/08 ECGD The Home Office recently published a research report did provide support that year for a contract awarded to entitled “The Migrant Journey”. This research tracked VT Shipbuilding International Ltd for the supply of the behaviour of the cohort of students (185,600) entering three offshore patrol vessels to the Ministry of National the UK in 2004. At the end of 2009 approximately 7% Security in Trinidad and Tobago. (12,990) had been granted leave to remain in the UK to work and approximately 6% (11,140) were still studying. Further Education: Finance The information for other EU graduates is in the following table. Stephen Barclay: To ask the Secretary of State for Destinations of non-UK EU domiciled full-time first degree graduates Business, Innovation and Skills pursuant to the written from English HEIs remaining in the UK six months after graduation in ministerial statement of 21 June 2010, Official Report, 2008/09 columns 1-2WS, on further education investment, Number of Percentage of whether previous investment in capital programmes by Destination graduates respondents further education colleges will be taken into account when allocating capital funding through the enhanced UK employment only 1,425 19.6 renewal grant. [17463] Combination of work 360 4.9 and study in UK UK further study 2,185 29.6 Mr Hayes: In written ministerial statements on only 8 September and 13 October, I informed the House Total in UK 3,970 53.9 that, after a robust and transparent assessment process, employment or study 154 colleges will receive up to £225,000 through a Other 3,395 46.1 renewal grant of which 21 colleges will receive up to Total DLHE 7,365 100.0 £1 million through an enhanced renewal grant. respondents Only those colleges that had received less than £5 million Notes: in LSC grant since 2001 were eligible to be considered 1. Figures are rounded to the nearest five. for a grant under these schemes. Previous investment by 2. Employment location is taken from the question which asks which town or city respondents are working in. the colleges, other than LSC funding, was not taken 3. Some graduates enter a combination of work and study and are into account. Applications to the enhanced renewal listed in a separate row. Their location is based on their employment grant were assessed against the existing condition of the location. college estate and its facilities; proposed benefits to 4. Study location is taking from the institution providing further learners; and how the projects would contribute to the study. 5. ‘Other’ includes those who are in different categories in the DLHE regeneration of their local communities. survey, which includes work or further study (or a combination) Higher Education and Student Finance outside of the UK, assumed to be unemployed, not available for employment or the ‘other’ category. Independent Review 6. In 2008/09 there were 12,660 full-time first degree graduates from English HEIs who came from non-UK EU countries who were Andrew Stephenson: To ask the Secretary of State for eligible to answer DLHE. 7,365 of these responded (58.2%). Source: Business, Innovation and Skills what the cost to the Destinations of Leavers from Higher Education survey (DLHE), public purse was of the Independent Review of Higher produced by HESA. Educational Funding and Student Finance. [17457] 363W Written Answers14 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 364W

Higher Education: Per Capita Costs does not provide specific funds to promote engagement between universities and primary schools but many Jack Dromey: To ask the Secretary of State for Aimhigher partnerships work with primary schools in Business, Innovation and Skills (1) what his most disadvantaged areas to raise awareness about higher recent estimate is of the average annual cost to the education. public purse of a university place; [16405] In April this year, the Higher Education Funding (2) what his most recent estimate is of the annual Council for England (HEFCE) concluded a project cost to the public purse of a place in higher education with 11 Aimhigher partnerships outlining their work in for an (a) engineering and (b) medical student. brokering links between primary schools and higher [16406] education institutions. In addition, HEFCE transferred £30 million in 2009-10 from within the overall funding Mr Willetts: There is no published estimate of the for teaching to help strengthen links between universities overall average annual cost to the public purse of a and schools. university place due to differences in the definitions of which students are eligible for teaching grant and student Higher Education: Young People support. However, estimates of expenditure per receiving student per year for each of these components are Ian Swales: To ask the Secretary of State for available separately: Business, Innovation and Skills how many young Teaching expenditure people normally resident in Redcar constituency entered (a) higher education and (b) university in each In academic year 2008/09 the average teaching grant of the last 13 years. [16542] expenditure per FTE funded student (both undergraduate and postgraduate) at institutions in England was around Mr Willetts: The numbers of young (aged under 21) £4,200 per year. This grant is distributed to institutions undergraduate entrants, from Redcar constituency, to by the Higher Education Funding Council for England UK higher education institutions (universities and higher according to the subject as well as a number of other education colleges) are shown in the table. criteria; the notional grants for each subject group are as follows: Figures are taken from the Higher Education Statistics Agency Student Record and are provided for the academic Notional 2008/09 years to 1996/97 to 2008/09. Data for the 2009/10 academic HEFCE year will become available from January 2011. Price undergraduate The Department does not hold constituency-level group Description grant rate (£) data for students studying higher education courses at A The clinical stages of medicine and 14,600 further education colleges. dentistry courses and veterinary science Young1 undergraduate entrants2 from Redcar constituency3, UK higher B Laboratory-based subjects (science, 5,500 education institutions4, academic years 1996/97 to 2008/09 preclinical stages of medicine and Academic year Number dentistry, engineering and technology) C Subjects with a studio, laboratory or 3,900 1996/97 285 fieldwork element 1997/98 315 D All other subjects 2,700 1998/99 275 1999/2000 340 Student support expenditure 2000/01 340 In 2008/09 around 870,000 England-domiciled students 2001/02 345 at institutions in the UK were awarded student support 2002/03 345 in the form of grants and/or loans. In total £1.257 billion 2003/04 360 was received in grants at an average of £1,400 per 2004/05 375 student awarded student support. Maintenance and fee 2005/06 370 loans for these students totalled £4.698 billion, which 2006/07 420 would have an average budgetary cost1 per student 2007/08 460 awarded student support of around £1,500. Robust 2008/09 490 student support data is not available at subject level. 1 Young refers to entrants aged under 21. 2 1 The budgetary cost represents the future cost to government of Covers entrants to both full-time and part-time courses. 3 subsidising and writing off the loans issued. The table does not include entrants where the constituency of the student cannot be established due to missing or invalid postcode information. Higher Education: Primary Education 4 Excludes the Open university due to inconsistencies in their coding of entrants across the time series. Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for Notes: Figures are based on a HESA snapshot population as at 1 December Business, Innovation and Skills what funding his and are rounded to the nearest five. Source: Higher Education Statistics Department provides to promote engagement between Agency (HESA) Student Record. universities and primary schools in (a) deprived communities and (b) other areas. [17053] Industry: Women

Mr Willetts: Higher education institutions work with Meg Munn: To ask the Secretary of State for schools in many ways to help prepare young learners for Business, Innovation and Skills (1) what steps he plans higher education and many use their own funds to to take to increase the representation of women in establish links with primary schools. The Department non-traditional industries; [16608] 365W Written Answers14 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 366W

(2) what assistance other than that provided through Research. The phase 2 evaluation quotes a 96% employer the Women and Work Sector Skills Pathway Initiative and 90% participant satisfaction rate. 51% of employers his Department provides to help women employees had not previously engaged with their SSC and 40% of progress in industries in which they are under- participants had never received off the job training represented. [16616] before. 5% of participants were working for different employers at the time they were surveyed compared to Mr Hayes: We believe that skills are essential to an average UK employer turnover rate of 15.7% in enabling people to find and keep jobs, progress in work, 2009. The evaluation is available on the UK Commission and contribute to stronger and more cohesive communities. for Employment and Skills website at: BIS’ commitment to ensuring equitable access for women http://www.ukces.org.uk/our-work/qualifications/woman-and- to skills training, sustainable employment, and full work/ engagement in non-traditional sectors enforces that view. BIS delivers a range of policies and programmes, Tom Blenkinsop: To ask the Secretary of State for other that the Womenand Work Sector Pathways Initiative, Business, Innovation and Skills (1) how many women that help deliver this vision. These include: participated in the women and work sector skills An enhanced information, advice and guidance service for pathway initiative in the North East; [16737] adults, offer high quality personalised information about a range (2) which industrial sectors participated in the of training and support; women and work sector skills pathway initiative in Providing employability skills to those with the greatest skills the North East; [16738] needs; Funding for the UK Resource Centre for Women (UKRC) in (3) which industrial sector had the highest number of Science, Engineering and Technology, supporting the delivery of (a) women and (b) employers participating in the the strategy for Women in Science; women and work sector skills pathway initiative in the STEM Ambassadors encouraging young people to pursue North East. [16739] studies in science, technology, engineering and mathematics (STEM); The National Apprenticeship Service works with Connexions, Mr Hayes: In phase 3 of the Women and Work Next Steps, local authorities, Job Centre Plus and other key Sector Pathways (March 2009 to April 2010) 124 women partners to increase the number and diversity of people starting and 31 employers participated in the North East. Of apprenticeships and progressing to the next apprenticeship. these Lantra, the SSC for land-based and environmental We are working with the National Apprenticeship industries, had the highest number of both women and Service to explore new ways of encouraging more women employers participating. A breakdown of women and into atypical careers through apprenticeships. Pilots employers by Sector Skills Councils is given in the have been designed to increase the ability to tackle the following table. No further breakdown by industry is broader issues of under representations in apprenticeships, available and information by region was not kept in including gender segregation and access to Apprenticeships phases 1 and 2: for individuals with a learning difficulty or disability. Equality issues will also be covered in the equalities Sector Skills Council Participants Employers impact assessment which will underpin our forthcoming skills strategy. Semta (science, engineering and 32 2 manufacturing technologies) Skills for Justice (justice and community 11 Meg Munn: To ask the Secretary of State for safety) Business, Innovation and Skills (1) how many women The Institute of the Motor Industry IMI 34 3 have received assistance from the Women and Work (automotive retail) Sector Skills Pathway Initiative since its inception; People 1st (hospitality, leisure, travel and 21 [16615] tourism) (2) what estimate he made of the proportion of Lantra (land-based and environmental) 37 20 women who have taken part in the Women and Work ConstructionSkills 1 10 Sector Skills Pathway Initiative since its inception who Asset Skills (facilities management, 102 subsequently gained employment; [16617] housing, property, planning, cleaning and parking) (3) what assessment he has made of the effectiveness Skillfast (Fashion and Textiles) from 17 2 of the Women and Work Sector Pathways Initiative. 1 April 2010 fashion and textiles became [16609] part of Skillset Total 124 31 Mr Hayes: Since the Women and Work Sector Pathways 1 Regions where people live and work are sometimes different. Initiative began in 2006 until the end of March 2010, 16,736 women have completed the programme. Around another 5,000 will be helped in the financial year 2010-11. Innovation Only one project has involved unemployed women. In 2009-10 and 2010-11 GoSkills ran a project to train Stephen Mosley: To ask the Secretary of State for unemployed women as bus drivers. Of the 51 women Business, Innovation and Skills what steps he is taking who participated, 20 have gone into direct employment to ensure that Britain’s science and innovation sector following the training. In 2010-11 37 women are expected contributes to economic growth. [17263] to complete this training with eight of them having already starting work. Mr Willetts: Science and Innovation are critical to Phases 1 and 2 of Women and Work have been our future prosperity and are strongly supported by this evaluated by external companies IFF, PRI and BMG Government. As part of the spending review, we are 367W Written Answers14 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 368W continuing to strengthen the way we support science Research: Manpower and innovation and improving the way they contribute to economic growth. We will set out our strategy for Jack Dromey: To ask the Secretary of State for economic growth in a White Paper later this year. Business, Innovation and Skills what recent estimate he has made of the number of people who are employed in scientific research projects which receive News International Government funding. [16409]

Michael Dugher: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Willetts: The Department for Business Innovation Business, Innovation and Skills what meetings (a) he and Skills provides funding to the research councils and (b) Ministers in his Department have had with which in turn provide funding for research projects. executives of (i) News International Limited and (ii) The research councils estimate that they support News Corporation since their appointment. [16718] 9,000 scientific postdoctoral researchers (full-time equivalents) working on grants in higher education Mr Davey: My right hon. Friend the Secretary of institutions, and about 4,000 researchers in research State for the Department for Business, Innovation and council institutes. Skills had a short introductory phone call with James Murdoch of News Corporation on 15 June 2010 and Skills Funding Agency: Information Officers my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Communications and Creative Industries Mr Iain Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for met with Rebekah Brooks of News International on Business, Innovation and Skills how many staff are 12 July 2010. None of the other Ministers in the Department employed by the Skills Funding Agency to work for Business, Innovation and Skills has held meetings on (a) communications and (b) public information with executives of (i) News International Ltd or (ii) News campaigns. [17067] Corporation since their appointment. Mr Hayes: The information is as follows: Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for (a) Staff working on communications Business, Innovation and Skills what meetings Ministers Number in his Department have had with (a) Rebekah Brooks, (b) James Murdoch and (c) representatives of News Skills Funding Agency 39 International since 12 May; and if he will make a Information Management 4 Services statement. [17371] Total 43 Mr Davey: My right hon. Friend the Secretary of (b) Staff employed under public information campaigns State for the Department for Business, Innovation and Number Skills had a short introductory phone call with James Murdoch on 15 June 2010 and my hon. Friend the Skills Funding Agency 5 Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, The National Apprenticeship Service employs 18 staff Communications and Creative Industries met with Rebekah to work on both communications and public campaigns Brooks of News International on 12 July 2010. None of across England. the other Ministers in the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills has held meetings with (a) Rebekah Sunday Trading Brooks, (b) James Murdoch and (c) representatives of News International since 12 May 2010. Mark Menzies: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what recent representations he has received on Sunday trading Overseas Trade: Philippines legislation. [17324]

Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Prisk: Since the beginning of May 2010 the Business, Innovation and Skills how many officials in Department has received four representations by his Department work on the promotion of trade correspondence; one from a retail organisation and between the United Kingdom and the Philippines; and three from individuals, two of which came via their what the equivalent figure was in (a) 1983, (b) 1987 Members of Parliament. The Department has also met and (c) each year between 1998 and 2008. [17363] with representatives of local authorities to discuss the application of the Sunday Trading Act 1994 and has responded to six parliamentary questions and a question Mr Prisk: UK Trade and Investment (UKTI) leads to the Deputy Prime Minister from the “Student Room” on trade and investment promotion with the Philippines. website on the subject. UKTI’s parent Departments are the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and the Department for Business, Unemployment: Graduates Innovation and Skills. Staffing figures for 1983, 1987 and for each year since 1998 are not available. Mr Evennett: To ask the Secretary of State for Currently there are seven full-time UKTI staff in the Business, Innovation and Skills what estimate he has Philippines (supported by the British ambassador’s time, made of the number of people who have obtained a as appropriate) and eight staff covering South East degree in the last five years who are (a) unemployed Asia, including the Philippines, in our International and (b) employed but earning a salary below the Group in London. £15,000 student loan repayment threshold. [15824] 369W Written Answers14 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 370W

Mr Willetts: The information is not available. Community Assets Information on the destinations of the 2004/05 cohort of higher education (HE) graduates was collected via Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for the Longitudinal Destinations of Leavers from Higher Communities and Local Government what steps he is Education (Long DLHE) survey. Results from this were taking to support community ownership of assets. published by the Higher Education Statistics Agency [17246] (HESA) in 2009. No survey of the 2005/06 cohort was taken, though a cohort of students who graduated in Andrew Stunell: The Government are funding the 2006/07 will be surveyed in November this year. The Asset Transfer Unit (ATU) to promote best practice results of this are due to be published in 2011. across England and provide advice and expertise on From the report, 2.9% of the UK domiciled full-time matters relating to asset transfer to communities. The first degree graduates were assumed to be unemployed ATU is also supporting 20 local authorities and their three-and-a-half years after graduating. Of those that community sector partners to develop asset transfer were in full-time employment in the UK and declared a strategies and projects through the final year of the salary, 8.6% declared a salary which was below £15,000 Advancing Assets for Communities demonstration per annum. programme. The ATU has drawn on local experience and the expertise of specialist partner organisations to develop good practice material for communities and local authorities, which is available at: COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT www.atu.org.uk Recognising that access to finance is crucial to a Allotments growth in community ownership of assets, the Government are also funding the £70 million Communitybuilders programme which aims to support neighbourhood based Nicky Morgan: To ask the Secretary of State for community organisations to acquire or improve assets Communities and Local Government what recent and extend their services through a mix of loans and progress he has made on encouraging local authorities grants. We are also supporting greater use of community to provide space for allotments. [16915] shares as an innovative way to attract extra investment, increase community empowerment and grow community Andrew Stunell: The provision of allotments is the enterprises. responsibility of local authorities. Allotment legislation places a duty on local authorities (except for inner In addition the Government are determined to put London boroughs) to provide allotments where they communities in a better position to respond to the consider that there is a demand for them in their area. closure of facilities that are important to them, and to the potential offered by redundant buildings which they Government are supporting innovative approaches have plans to transform as community hubs. We will be to making land available for community use, including introducing proposals in the Localism Bill in November. food growing. Community landbanking and “meanwhile licences/leases” being developed by the Federation of Community Relations City Farms and Community Gardens and the Development Trusts Association respectively, could be tools that the Mr Wallace: To ask the Secretary of State for community can use to get more access to land for a Communities and Local Government what recent variety of green space uses. contribution his Department has made to the Government’s agenda for tackling extremism. [16707] Circulator Pumps: Energy Andrew Stunell: The coalition Government are committed Mr Anderson: To ask the Secretary of State for to tackling extreme, intolerant and divisive groups. My Communities and Local Government whether his Department is taking a leading role in developing the Department plans to take steps to inform circulator programme for challenging extremism, as part of CLG’s pump fitters of the inclusion of circulator pumps with wider work to develop the Government’s approach to an A-G energy label in Part L of the Building integration. My Department is also contributing to the Home Office-led review of the Prevent strand of the Regulations. [16766] counter-terrorism strategy. Andrew Stunell: CLG published four revised Part L Empty Dwelling Management Orders Approved Documents and two new Building Services Compliance Guides in April 2010, containing practical Joan Walley: To ask the Secretary of State for guidance on complying with the revised requirements of Communities and Local Government how many Part L of the Building Regulations that came into force (a) interim and (b) final empty dwelling management on 1 October 2010. The two Buildings Services Compliance orders have been (i) applied for and (ii) made to date. Guides specifically recommend that circulator pumps [17083] should be labelled in accordance with the Europump Labelling Scheme and have a rating in the range A to G. Andrew Stunell: To date, 43 applications for interim There are no plans to specifically inform circulator empty dwelling management orders have been made to pump fitters about the recommendations on circulator the Residential Property Tribunal Service, of which 36 pumps, but CLG officials have recently supported a have been approved. Local authorities do not need any number of dissemination and training events for industry further approval to make final empty dwelling management in relation to the 2010 Part L revisions. orders and data is not collected on them. 371W Written Answers14 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 372W

Housing: Carbon Emissions £ million Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for 2007-08 4.669 Communities and Local Government what definition 2008-09 6.951 of a zero-carbon home his Department uses. [16590] 2009-10 8.418 1 Part year. Andrew Stunell: My right hon. Friend the Minister for Housing and Local Government set out the The amount spent on salaries reflects the increase in Government’s approach to zero carbon homes in his the number of civil servants (full-time equivalents (FTEs)) written statement to Parliament of 27 July 2010, Official working in the GOE, from approximately 30 FTEs in Report, column 83WS. 2005-06 (not a full year) to 92.9 FTEs in 2009-10. Housing: Sustainable Development From 2007-08 these figures have included two key senior staff who were appointed on fixed term contracts Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for ending in 2012 and whose remuneration reflects their Communities and Local Government what plans he extensive experience and the unique challenge of delivering has for the future of (a) the Code for Sustainable the Olympics to a fixed deadline. Details of their Homes and (b) Part L of the Building Regulations. remuneration have been published in the departmental Annual Reports and Accounts for each year since. [16589] This planned increase in staffing (a) reflects the Andrew Stunell: The 2010 revisions to the Code for development of GOE’s role during this period—including Sustainable Homes are expected to be published shortly. overseeing the entire Olympic project, integrating the Thereafter the Government plan to review the future work of multiple delivery bodies, driving out savings—some role of the code, in the context of our aims to simplify £700 million to date and keeping within the £9.3 billion the overall system of new build standards. public sector funding provision; (b) is a planned response The Government have committed to continuous to the expected growth in work to deliver the Government’s improvements in the energy efficiency of new housing commitments and guarantees, as 2012 approaches; and as part of the Zero Carbon Homes agenda, and are (c) is consistent with GOE’s staffing and resource plan considering their approach for new non-domestic buildings. for 2008-09 to 2010-11, which was agreed early in 2008. In this context, we are scoping work for further changes to Part L in 2013. Andrew Bingham: To ask the Secretary of State for Voluntary Organisations: Finance Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport how much the Government Olympic Executive has paid in bonuses to its employees in each of the last five years. [15585] Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government how much funding his Department allocated to voluntary groups Hugh Robertson: The Government Olympic Executive in Coventry in each year since 2005. [16658] (GOE) makes non-consolidated performance payments to its employees for two purposes: (a) in year non- Andrew Stunell: The Department’s records do not consolidated performance payments to reward outstanding hold information about grant payments to the voluntary contributions in particularly demanding tasks or situations; sector by geographical area so the information requested and (b) year end non-consolidated performance payments could be provided only at disproportionate cost. However, to reward highly successful performance over a whole as part of the new Government’s transparency initiative, year. In both cases they help drive high performance. the Department has published grant spending data Non-consolidated performance payments are an integral which can be found at: element of the reward package for staff, have to be www.communities.gov.uk/publications/corporate/ re-earned each year and do not add to future pay bill spendinggrantdata0910 costs (e.g. pensions). Details of both in-year and year end non-consolidated performance payments for GOE are as follows: CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT £ Government Olympic Executive 2005-06 4,200 Andrew Bingham: To ask the Secretary of State for 2006-07 21,341 Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what expenditure 2007-08 72,791 the Government Olympic Executive incurred on staff 2008-09 141,793 salaries in each of the last five years. [15538] 2009-10 213,916

Hugh Robertson: In each of the last five years, the From 2007-08, these figures have included two key amount spent on staff salaries in the Government Olympic senior staff in GOE, who were appointed on fixed term Executive (GOE) was: contracts ending in 2012 and whose remuneration reflects their extensive experience and the unique challenge of £ million delivering the Olympics to a fixed deadline. Details of 2005-06 11.091 their remuneration have been published in the departmental 2006-07 2.765 Annual Reports and Accounts for each year since. 373W Written Answers14 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 374W

Andrew Bingham: To ask the Secretary of State for While Sport England has not set specific targets for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what expenditure NGBs on increasing participation among particular the Government Olympic Executive has incurred on groups of people, funding levels for sports were in part consultants in each of the last five years. [15619] assessed on the strength of their strategic plans to deliver on increased participation among women, black Hugh Robertson: The Government Olympic Executive’s and minority ethnic groups, and disabled people. (GOE) expenditure on consultancy costs is: In addition to the core (WSP) funding, Sport England is investing £10 million in an Active Women initiative. £ This funding is aimed at helping women in disadvantaged 2005-06 666,000 communities and women caring for children under 16. 2006-07 721,000 Successful applicants will demonstrate the ability to 2007-08 432,000 increase participation for these two groups. 2008-09 331,000 For the NGBs, developing the girls’ and women’s 2009-10 547,000 game, disability sport, and reaching out to diverse communities is not an optional extra but a vital part of These figures include expenditure by the GOE’s what they are required to do. If any sport does not predecessor, the Olympic Games Unit. All figures include accept this challenge, Sport England will switch their VAT (where appropriate). funding to those that do. GOE is overseeing the entire Olympic project, integrating the work of multiple delivery bodies, driving out savings and ensuring the games is delivered within the £9.3 billion public sector funding provision. GOE’s purchase DEFENCE of consultancy services is a planned response to the need to deliver the Government’s commitments and Armed Forces: Cadets guarantees. The consultants have provided valuable short- term support, skills and expertise which has enabled Jim Shannon: To ask the Secretary of State for GOE to, among other things: Defence (1) what (a) financial and (b) administrative identify how the games will act as a catalyst for the regeneration assistance his Department offers to cadets undertaking of the East End; vocational qualifications in (i) England, (ii) Wales, develop and publish a clear Legacy Action Plan; (iii) Scotland and (iv) Northern Ireland; [17479] develop arrangements for the delivery of the physical and (2) what recent discussions he has had with cadet sporting legacy; forces on the completion of vocational qualifications ensure that the necessary assurance processes are in place; by cadets in (a) England, (b) Wales, (c) Scotland and ensure that all elements of the programme are integrated (d) Northern Ireland in 2011-12. [17480] efficiently; from 2009-10, undertake tracking research on public attitudes Mr Robathan: I discussed this issue with the cadet to the Olympics and to understand knowledge levels and forces during the summer of 2010 and while I strongly concerns of residents in the five host boroughs (as we get closer encourage the attainment of qualifications, the Ministry to the games it is essential for the Government to understand the views of the general public and the residents of the five of Defence does not provide financial assistance for boroughs). cadets to undertake educational (and therefore also vocational) qualifications. In England, funding is made available through the Young People’s Learning Agency Public Service Broadcasting (historically the Learning Skills Council); for Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, funding for vocational Jonathan Edwards: To ask the Secretary of State for qualifications for cadets is a devolved matter. Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport whether his Cadets have access to a Business and Technology Department has requested legal advice on the funding Education Council (BTEC) Officer nominated for their of S4/C in the last two years. [16782] unit, who liaises with the cadets and provides administrative support throughout the period of their qualification Mr Vaizey: DCMS, like other Government Departments, attainment. seeks legal advice where it is appropriate to do so. However, the Department does not comment in relation to a particular circumstance whether or not it has Armed Forces: Housing sought or received any such advice. Tim Farron: To ask the Secretary of State for Sports: Females Defence pursuant to the answer of 13 September 2010, Official Report, column 727W, on the armed forces: housing, into what categories each call received in Meg Munn: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, respect of service family accommodation in 2009 was Olympics, Media and Sport what steps he plans to take allocated; and how many such calls were classified as to increase women’s participation in sport. [16610] (a) urgent, (b) non-urgent and (c) other. [16977]

Hugh Robertson: In working with the sport national Mr Robathan [holding answer 13 October 2010]: All governing bodies (NGBs) on their whole sport plans work orders arising from calls to the relevant Helpdesk (WSP), Sport England emphasises the need to encourage are classed as one of three categories: Emergency, Urgent women and girls to participate in all sports. or Routine. 375W Written Answers14 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 376W

The number of Emergency, Urgent and Routine works Departmental Work Experience orders raised during 2009 are shown in the following table: Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how many interns his Department has Emergency Urgent Routine Total engaged in the last 12 months; and how many were England 42,537 59,921 124,431 226,889 (a) unpaid, (b) remunerated with expenses only and and Wales (c) paid a salary. [17217] Scotland 1,618 3,077 10,729 15,424 Northern 1,389 4,761 4,998 11,148 Mr Robathan: The information requested is not held Ireland centrally and could be provided only at disproportionate cost. Departmental Carbon Emissions Patrol Craft Jeremy Lefroy: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence whether he has made an estimate of the Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for change in the level of carbon dioxide emissions from Defence what plans he has for the future of the P2000 his Department since May 2010; and what steps he class patrol vessel fleet; and if he will make a statement. plans to take to meet his Department’s target of [17450] reducing such emissions by 10 per cent. by May 2011. [16806] Nick Harvey: Decisions on the future structure of the Royal Navy are being taken forward as part of the Mr Robathan: The 10% saving initiative is limited to Strategic Defence and Security Review. the civil element of the Defence estate with a baseline of Trident 62,799 tonnes of CO2, for 2009-10. The estimated emissions to the end of August are approximately 22,000 tonnes CO2. Noting that these figures include estimated data Mr Mike Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for where accurate bills are not available, and that it covers Defence what the location is of each Royal Navy the spring/summer months, the Ministry of Defence submarine operational berth in service in (a) the UK believes it is on course to meet the 10% reduction target. and (b) overseas. [17300] All MOD sites within the 10% reduction target have submitted plans to reduce emissions with general measures Nick Harvey: The locations of the in service operational being considered such as: establishing core hours for berths for Royal Navy submarines in the UK and heating/cooling offices; encouraging cleaning during overseas are as follows: office hours; regular walk round surveys; not heating Barrow above 19C or cooling below 24C; revising server room Loch Ewe cooling temperatures; eliminating unnecessary internal/ Loch Goil external lighting. Plymouth Portland Port Departmental Empty Property Portsmouth River Clyde estuary Mike Freer: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Southampton. what the estimated monetary value is of each vacant Overseas: (a) building and (b) parcel of land owned by his Department in each region. [16252] Gibraltar Falkland Islands Mr Robathan: Land or buildings which are temporarily Diego Garcia. vacant may not be surplus to longer term requirements. There are a further 25 operational berths available Where a site is determined to be surplus it is disposed of overseas to Royal Navy submarines but I am withholding as quickly as possible. The current list of the sites in the location as disclosure would, or would be likely to, disposal together with those earmarked for future disposal prejudice the capability, effectiveness and security of is available in the Library of the House. our armed forces. It is not possible to give the estimated monetary value of each vacant building or parcel of land, as this information is not held. Given the size of the estate, such market valuations would be expensive to commission EDUCATION and require frequent updating to allow for changing market conditions and other factors. Asset valuations Building Schools for the Future Programme: North East of major defence sites based on their existing use are included in the National Asset Register and can be Pat Glass: To ask the Secretary of State for found at: Education (1) if he will estimate the likely monetary http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/+/http://www.hm- value of compensation claims made by construction treasury.gov.uk/media/8/D/nar2007_chapter7.pdf companies consequent on the cancellation of the Market valuations are usually obtained only prior to contracts under the Building Schools for the Future a disposal and their disclosure could prejudice commercial programme in (a) North West Durham constituency interests. and (b) the North East; [11739] 377W Written Answers14 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 378W

(2) he will estimate the likely effect on the number Departmental ICT of construction jobs in (a) North West Durham constituency and (b) the North East of the Pete Wishart: To ask the Secretary of State for cancellation of the Building Schools for the Future Education which IT contracts awarded by his programme. [11776] Department and its predecessors in the last five years have been abandoned; and what the monetary value of Mr Gibb: Where there are contractual obligations on each such contract was. [12709] local authorities in respect of the Building Schools for the Future (BSF) programme they will be honoured. Tim Loughton: The Department for Education has Where no contract has been finalised and signed, or no not abandoned any IT contracts. firm agreement to build a further wave of schools where an agreement with a local education partnership is Departmental Public Expenditure already in place, there will be no compensation payments to be made. We are not aware of any compensation Andrew George: To ask the Secretary of State for claims having been made to date; therefore no estimate Education if his Department will take steps to assess has been made of the monetary value of such claims the effects on (a) equality of incomes, (b) equality made by construction companies consequent on the of assets and (c) equality of access to services of decisions over BSF in (a) North West Durham constituency measures relating to its expenditure under and (b) the North East. consideration in the Spending Review. [16359] The effects of ending the BSF programme on the construction industry were considered by the Secretary Tim Loughton: The Department for Education will of State in coming to his decision although not specifically ensure the relevant equality considerations are taken in on the number of construction jobs in (a) North West to account in the context of expenditure under consideration Durham constituency and (b) the North East. in the spending review, in compliance with our obligations under the Sex Discrimination Act 1975, the Race Relations Act 1976, and the Disability Discrimination Act 1995. Departmental Contracts Free Schools Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Education what the monetary value is of contracts his Caroline Flint: To ask the Secretary of State for Department has awarded to each (a) management Education (1) how many expressions of interest in consultancy and (b) IT company since 7 May 2010. becoming a free school the New School Network has [16188] received in (a) Doncaster and (b) Don Valley to date; [10717] Tim Loughton: The Department has not awarded a (2) how many independent schools have submitted contract to a management consultancy company since (a) expressions of interest in and (b) formal proposals 7 May 2010 but there have been some contracts awarded on becoming a free school. [10714] to IT companies and the monetary value of those contracts were as follows: Mr Gibb: New Schools Network (NSN) does not receive expressions of interest. People can, however, IT company Monetary value of the contract enter their details on NSN’s website for further information (£) on free schools. Actica Consulting Ltd 159,912.50 The Department has not received any free schools Blazie 7,507.00 proposals from the Don Valley area, but has received CCI Group 9,776.10 one proposal from Doncaster local authority area. So Cesg 304.00 far 45 independent schools have submitted formal proposals Comms Express 457.70 to become free schools. To date one has been approved Cubelogic Solutions 26,840 to progress to the business stage. Ultimate Locks Ltd 2,280.00 SoftCat Ltd 23,123.88 GCE A-level

Mark Lancaster: To ask the Secretary of State for Departmental Empty Property Education what estimate he has made of the proportion of pupils who took GCSEs in 2010 who are studying A-levels (a) in England and (b) in Milton Mike Freer: To ask the Secretary of State for Keynes. [15611] Education what the estimated monetary value is of each vacant (a) building and (b) parcel of land owned Mr Gibb: Information on students registered for courses by his Department in each region. [16251] beginning in September 2010 is not yet available. The most up-to-date estimates available are based on those Tim Loughton: The Department for Education does who completed year 11 in 2008. These show that both in not own any vacant property or land. It does have a England as a whole and in Milton Keynes, 44% of number of vacant leasehold properties. However, there pupils who attended maintained schools in year 11 in is no requirement for the Department to have these 2007/08 were studying A/AS levels in 2008/09. The properties valued and so we do not hold the information source of these estimates is the Department for Education’s required to respond to this request. matched administrative data. 379W Written Answers14 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 380W

National Curriculum Tests 1 Assumes that all learners studying science at AS level in 2009/10 were part of the cohort entered for GCSE science in the previous year. Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Education what assessment he has made of the effect on Teachers: Recruitment the national average achieved in standard assessment tests in 2009-10 of industrial action by teaching unions. Andrew Stephenson: To ask the Secretary of State for [7225] Education what steps he plans to take to encourage recruitment of experienced staff to schools which have Mr Gibb: Results from the 2010 Key Stage 2 National received poor Ofsted ratings. [10064] Curriculum Tests are available at: http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s000949/ Mr Gibb: Recruitment of teachers other than trainees index.shtml is largely a matter for schools, who are best placed to This includes an assessment of the effect on the make decisions about their particular requirements. The national average achieved in the tests in 2009-10 of School Teachers’ Pay and Conditions Document (STPCD), industrial action by teaching unions. which contains the statutory pay and conditions of employment for teachers in maintained schools in England Schools: Libraries and Wales, includes a number of pay flexibilities to support recruitment and retention, which may be used Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for to attract experienced staff where appropriate. Education (1) whether he has provided guidance to The Government are also committed to introducing a (a) local education authorities and (b) head teachers pupil premium for disadvantaged children. It will be for on his Department’s policy on the future of school head teachers and school governors to decide how to libraries; and if he will make a statement; [14805] use the premium to meet the needs of disadvantaged (2) how many local authorities with education children in their schools, and this might include using departments have a school library service; and if he will flexibilities in the pay system to attract more experienced make a statement. [14820] staff. Ministers are determined to make teaching a more attractive profession for teachers in all schools, by removing Mr Gibb: The Department does not provide guidance bureaucracy, trusting teachers to get on with their job to local authorities and head teachers on school libraries and taking measures to tackle behaviour and discipline and does not routinely collect information on school in schools. These include strengthening teachers’ powers library services provided by local authorities. to maintain good behaviour in the classroom, removing While the provision of a school library is not compulsory, the bureaucratic burden on schools when giving detentions, a good school library is a valuable resource for pupils and giving teachers the strongest possible protection and teachers. We therefore welcome the new report from false allegations. The Government will announce from the Commission set up by the National Literacy further measures to reduce bureaucracy during the autumn, Trust and Museums, Libraries and Archives ″School as Ministers engage with teachers and frontline staff on Libraries: A Plan for Improvement″ on the future role their plans to give them more power and remove the for school libraries and schools library services. The form-filling and bureaucracy that takes them away from report includes recommendations to interested groups, the classroom. in particular to local authorities and to head teachers. The Government have announced already their plan The Department agrees that good school libraries to fund a considerable expansion in the Teach First and school library services can make a positive contribution programme, which has been very successful in bringing to children’s literacy, and that schools are well placed to hundreds of high quality teachers into schools in the identify the contribution which school libraries can most deprived areas. There will now be Teach First make to meet their educational needs. teachers working in one third of all challenging schools right across the country, including some of the most Science: GCE A-level challenging primary schools.

Mark Lancaster: To ask the Secretary of State for Education what estimate he has made of the proportion of pupils who took science subjects at ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE GCSE level in 2010 who are studying a science subject Carbon Sequestration at A-level. [15610]

Mr Gibb: Information on students registered for courses Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for beginning in September 2010 is not yet available. The Energy and Climate Change what progress has been most up-to-date estimates available are based on those made in the establishment of four carbon capture and who started studying AS levels in September 2009. In storage demonstration projects. [17111] England 524,000 pupils in the mainstream maintained sector were entered for at least one GCSE in a science Charles Hendry: The Government confirmed their subject at the end of Key Stage 4 in 2009, and 113,000 intention to support four commercial scale, full chain, students (in both maintained schools and colleges) enrolled CCS demonstration projects in the coalition programme. on at least one AS level in a science subject in autumn The competition for the first of these projects is 2009. Therefore we estimate that 22% of pupils who progressing. The two bidders (consortiums led by Scottish took science at GCSE level in 2009 are studying a Power and E.On) are half-way through their Front-End science subject at AS level in 2009/101. Engineering and Design (FEED) studies. 381W Written Answers14 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 382W

DECC have recently completed a market sounding Natural Gas: Storage process with key stakeholders to help inform the design of the programme and the development of the selection Mr Wallace: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy process for the additional projects. It is intended to and Climate Change whether he or officials of his launch a call for proposals by the end of the year. Department have met representatives of Halite Energy Group on Canatxx since his appointment. [17340] Circulator Pumps: Energy Charles Hendry: Neither I, nor my ministerial colleagues have met with Halite since my appointment. Officials Mr Anderson: To ask the Secretary of State for have met Halite on one occasion. Energy and Climate Change what estimate he has made of the (a) carbon dioxide and (b) energy savings I have a meeting scheduled with representatives of consequent on the inclusion of circulator pumps with the Halite Energy Group for 2 November (after our an A-G energy label in Part L of the Buildings forthcoming meeting), which officials will also attend. Regulations in each of the next five years. [16765] Offshore Industry

Gregory Barker: The Department has not estimated Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for the carbon and energy benefits of A to G labelled Energy and Climate Change what timetable he has set circulator pumps in Part L. for publication of his safety review of the UK oil and The benefits are influenced by the actual circulator gas industry. [17114] efficiency and the number of running hours and this would be bespoke to each installation. From 2013, Charles Hendry: As stated in the Annual Energy under Regulation 641/2009 the eco-design requirements Statement, a review of the UK’s offshore oil and gas for glandless standalone circulators, which implements regulatory approach will be carried out as soon as the Directive 2005/32/EC, new circulators will have to have more precise and detailed findings from the gulf of an energy efficiency index of not more than 0.27, which Mexico incident investigations have been released. The is equivalent to an ’A’ rating. This reduces to 0.23 from timing for completion of our review will be dependent 2015. on when the US Administration publish their report into the incident (currently anticipated early 2011). Electricity Generation Renewable Energy

Alex Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for Alex Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change whether his Department’s Energy and Climate Change what his policy is on plans for electricity market reform will include (a) the creation of new and (b) Government proposals for further requirements on Ofgem to deliver assistance for existing manufacturing centres for renewable energy objectives; and when he expects to marine renewable energy. [17013] announce his plans for the future regulation of the electricity market. [17012] Charles Hendry: In the coalition agreement the Government have committed to introducing measures Charles Hendry: The Government, in line with the to encourage marine energy. We are currently working coalition agreement, have commissioned the Committee up proposals on marine energy, including how the on Climate Change to consider the level of ambition for development of marine energy parks can contribute renewables for the period beyond 2020. They are due to to the development of the sector, and will make produce a final report in April 2011. announcements on this in due course. The Annual Energy Statement explained that the The UK is well placed to benefit from the expansion Electricity Market Reform consultation will be published of the offshore wind industry. We have strong in autumn 2010 with a White Paper in spring 2011. research and development, engineering, technology and manufacturing capabilities. We also have a skilled work force and excellent companies that are ready to diversify Fuel Poverty: West Midlands into this new market. Sizewell B Power Station: Safety Chris White: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what recent estimate he has made of the number and proportion of households Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for in (a) Warwick and Leamington constituency, Energy and Climate Change what projects the licensee (b) Warwickshire and (c) the West Midlands which of Sizewell B undertook by agreement with the Health are in fuel poverty. [17427] and Safety Executive (HSE) (a) in response to recommendations of the periodic safety review 2005 and (b) since the periodic safety review 2005; what Gregory Barker: In 2006, the most recent year for timetable was set for completion of this work; and on which sub-regional figures are available, there were around what dates each project was completed to a standard 6,600 (14%) fuel poor households in the Warwick and approved by the HSE. [16894] Leamington constituency and 29,000 (13%) in the county of Warwickshire. Charles Hendry: The purpose of a periodic safety In 2008, there were around 500,000 (23%) fuel poor review (PSR) is to establish the performance of a licensed households in the west midlands. nuclear plant against the safety case approved by the 383W Written Answers14 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 384W

Health and Safety Executive’s Nuclear Directorate (HSE Richard Benyon: The information is given in the ND), and to identify any improvements that may be following tables. necessary. It is a condition of a nuclear site licence that an operator of a nuclear facility conducts a PSR for Newcastle Elsewhere that facility at least every 10 years. Full-time 128 95 British Energy Generation Ltd completed a PSR for Part-time 2 16 the Sizewell B nuclear power station at the end of 2003. Consultants 1 0 HSE ND assessed the PSR and advised British Energy Total 131 111 Generation Ltd of its findings in January 2005. HSE ND’s assessment report was published on HSE’s website in June 2006. Transferred to Newcastle The programme of work arising from the PSR contained Full-time 11 projects proposed by British Energy Generation Ltd Part-time 0 and actions identified by HSE ND in its assessment of Consultants 0 the review. The programme consisted of 234 separate Total 11 work items for the company, of which 231 have been addressed to HSE ND’s satisfaction. While technically National Wildlife Crime Unit: Finance challenging, the remaining three actions are of relatively low safety significance. Bridget Phillipson: To ask the Secretary of State for The key change made because of the 2005 PSR is that Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what plans she British Energy Generation Ltd put in place improvements has for funding of the UK National Wildlife Crime to the effectiveness of its safety management systems at Unit in the next three years; and if she will make a the Sizewell B nuclear power station. statement. [16556] Richard Benyon: Many Government Departments will have reduced budgets in the coming years, as part of the ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS Government’s drive to reduce the country’s budget deficit. I very much appreciate the value of the work of Departmental Drinking Water the National Wildlife Crime Unit but cannot make any commitment to its future funding until the outcome of Nick de Bois: To ask the Secretary of State for the comprehensive spending review is known. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how much her Department has spent on bottled water in each year Special Areas of Conservation since 2008. [16875] Stephen Lloyd: To ask the Secretary of State for Richard Benyon: It has been the policy of DEFRA Environment, Food and Rural Affairs in respect of and its executive agencies since March 2007 that bottled each proposed (a) new and (b) extension to a (i) water will not be served at any meetings or lunches, tap Special Protection Area and (ii) Special Area of water only will be supplied. No expenditure has been Conservation, on what date (A) the departmental brief identified. was received from Natural England, (B) public consultation was initiated for the proposal and (C) Marine Management Organisation: Manpower Natural England submitted a recommendation on the public consultation; what the designation status is of Alison Seabeck: To ask the Secretary of State for each such proposal; and if she will make a statement. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many (a) [17236] full-time staff, (b) part-time staff and (c) consultants are employed by the Marine Management Richard Benyon: The following table comprises those Organisation in (i) Newcastle and (ii) elsewhere; and marine and terrestrial sites in England for which designation how many employees of each type had been transferred proposals have been made under the EU habitats or from London to Newcastle in the last 12 months. birds directives and where the designation process has [16651] not been completed.

Final Date brief received Public consultation recommendations to Site SAC/SPA from NE commenced DEFRA Designation status

Inner Dowsing, SAC February 2009 27 November 2009 June 2010 Candidate SAC since Race Bank and 20 August 2010 North Ridge

Haisborough, SAC February 2009 27 November 2009 June 2010 Candidate SAC since Hammond and 20 August 2010 Winterton

Margate and Long SAC February 2009 27 November 2009 June 2010 Candidate SAC since Sands 20 August 2010

Lyme Bay and SAC February 2009 27 November 2009 June 2010 Candidate SAC since Torbay 20 August 2010 385W Written Answers14 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 386W

Final Date brief received Public consultation recommendations to Site SAC/SPA from NE commenced DEFRA Designation status

Prawle Point to SAC February 2009 27 November 2009 June 2010 Candidate SAC since Plymouth Sound 20 August 2010 and Eddystone Lizard Point SAC February 2009 27 November 2009 June 2010 Candidate SAC since 20 August 2010 Land’s End and SAC February 2009 27 November 2009 June 2010 Candidate SAC since Cape Bank 20 August 2010 Shell Flat SAC February 2009 27 November 2009 June 2010 SAC since 20 August 2010 Lune Deep SAC May 2010 20 August 2010 n/a Proposed SAC Prawle Point to SAC May 2010 20 August 2010 n/a Proposed SAC Start Point Portland to SAC September 2010 Expected to be early n/a Draft SAC Studland Reef 2011 Pevensey Levels SAC 8 July 2010 24 August 2010 n/a Proposed SAC Arun Valley SAC 8 July 2010 24 August 2010 n/a Proposed SAC The Broads SAC 8 July 2010 24 August 2010 n/a Existing SAC; new interest feature proposed Bolton Fell Moss SAC 1— August 2000 20 February 2008 Site of community (from JNCC) importance since December 2009. Awaiting formal designation as SAC. Mersey Narrows SPA 9 October 2000 30 July 2001 16 February 2004 Proposed SPA and North Wirral Foreshore Upper Nene Valley SPA July 2005 27 September 2006 1 November 2007 Proposed SPA Gravel Pits Dungeness to Pett SPA 12 May 2010 16 September 2010 n/a Proposed extensions to SPA Levels 1 No brief produced. Different process in 2000.

FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE cost of processing invoice payments and this information could be obtained only at disproportionate cost. BBC External Services In the UK, the FCO settles all invoices electronically. Our overseas posts are able to make cheque payments. Rehman Chishti: To ask the Secretary of State for However obtaining transactional level information could Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent be obtained only at disproportionate cost. assessment he has made of the performance of the BBC World Service against his Department’s objectives Departmental Public Expenditure for the funding of that service, with particular reference to its contribution to strengthening democracy. [16640] Mr Douglas Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State Mr Jeremy Browne: In his speech of 1 July, my right for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how much hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary described the “essential money his Department allocated to (a) the importance of the work of...the BBC World Service, Stabilisation Aid Fund, (b) the Conflict Prevention which gives Britain an unrivalled platform for the projection Pool, (c) the Discretionary Peacekeeping Fund, of the appeal of our culture and the sharing of our (d) the BBC World Service, excluding the BBC World values”. Service Trust, (e) the BBC World Service Trust, (f) the Special Reserve, (g) the British Council and (h) the While it is the case the Foreign and Commonwealth Security and Intelligence Fund in each year since 2005. Office has an ongoing dialogue with the BBC World [15970] Service on the strategic objectives of both organisations, the BBC World Service has full editorial and managerial Alistair Burt [holding answer 11 October 2010]: The independence and integrity. information requested is as follows: Departmental Billing (a), (b) and (c): On 1 April 2009 the Conflict Prevention Pool and the Stabilisation Aid Fund were merged to Mike Freer: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign form the Conflict Pool, which is managed tri-departmentally and Commonwealth Affairs what the average cost to by the Department for International Development (DfID), his Department was of processing the payment of an the Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) and the invoice in the latest period for which figures are Ministry of Defence (MoD). At the same time, available; and what proportion of invoices settled in responsibility for discretionary peacekeeping costs moved that period his Department paid (a) electronically and from the Peacekeeping Budget (managed by the FCO) (b) by cheque. [16165] to the Conflict Pool. Funding for the Peacekeeping Budget and the Conflict Alistair Burt: The Foreign and Commonwealth Office Pool (and its predecessors) is provided for separately by (FCO) does not maintain a central record of the average the Treasury and does not come from departmental 387W Written Answers14 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 388W expenditure limits (DEL). As a result, the FCO does will also continue to encourage emerging economies to not usually contribute to these funds from its own implement their national commitments to reduce fossil departmental budget. However, in financial year 2009-10, fuel subsidies in bilateral contacts. the FCO contributed an additional £2 million to the Conflict Pool from its departmental budget to support Iran: Nuclear Power stabilisation activities in Helmand Province, Afghanistan. FCO spend through the Conflict Pool is listed in the Mr Wallace: To ask the Secretary of State for Departmental Resource Accounts available on the FCO Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent website and in the Library of the House. assessment he has made of the effectiveness of the EU3+3 strategy in respect of Iran’s nuclear ambitions. (d) The following table shows the final FCO allocations (including Capital) to the BBC World Service from [16712] 2005-06 to 2009-10 as published in the Spring Supplementary Estimates for each year. Actual spend Alistair Burt: When my right hon. Friend the Foreign each year may differ from these figures and is available Secretary met with E3+3 counterparts in September, in the Departmental Resource Accounts available on they reaffirmed determination and commitment to seek the FCO website and in the Library of the House. an early negotiated solution to the Iranian nuclear issue. We assess that the E3+3’s twin-track strategy of £ pressure and an offer to negotiate an agreement is having an impact on Iranian decision-makers. We believe 2005-06 239,143,000 it is essential that Iran come to the table; and match our 2006-07 239,543,000 good faith. If it does not the pressure, in the form of 2007-08 255,043,000 sanctions, will increase. 2008-09 265,043,000 2009-10 272,043,000 Nigeria: Christianity

(e) The BBC World Service Trust is an independent Sammy Wilson: To ask the Secretary of State for charity funded by external grants and voluntary Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether he has contributions. The FCO makes no specific allocation to made representations to his Nigerian counterparts on it each year but may fund individual projects on an reports of violence against Christians in Plateau State. ad-hoc basis. [16846] (f) The FCO makes no allocations to the “Special Mr Bellingham: My right hon. Friend the Foreign Reserve” which is part of the Treasury Reserve. Secretary has not made representations to his Nigerian (g) The following table shows the final FCO allocations counterpart on reports of violence against Christians in (including capital) to the British Council from 2005-06 Plateau State. However, our high commission and the to 2009-10 as published in the Spring Supplementary Department for International Development (DfiD) in Estimates for each year. Actual spend each year may Nigeria have supported non-governmental organisations differ from these figures and is available in the Departmental in northern Nigeria to facilitate dialogue between Christian Resource Accounts available on the FCO website and in and Muslim communities, both of whom have suffered the Library of the House. from appalling violence this year. DfID and our high commission in Abuja are also £ exploring further ways in which they can help the 2005-06 189,210,000 process of reconciliation between religious and ethnic 2006-07 188,124,000 communities, and continue to impress on state and 2007-08 194,162,000 federal authorities the importance of bringing those 2008-09 202,663,000 responsible for crimes to justice. We encourage the 2009-10 200,763,000 Nigerian Government to fully consider the implementation of recommendations made in the recent report of the Presidential Committee on the Jos Crisis. (h) There is no Security and Intelligence Fund. However, there is a Single Intelligence Account to which the FCO Nigeria: Elections makes no allocation. Rehman Chishti: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent Developing Countries: Fossil Fuels reports he has received on (a) the forthcoming elections in Nigeria and (b) steps being taken to ensure Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for that those elections are free and fair. [16641] Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what steps he plans to take to encourage fossil fuel subsidy reform in Mr Bellingham: My right hon. Friend the Foreign the emerging economies; and if he will make a Secretary discussed Nigeria’s preparations for elections statement. [16587] in 2011 with his Nigerian counterpart H. Odein Ajumogobia on 28 September. Foreign Minister Mr Bellingham: The G20 has pledged to review progress Ajumogobia gave his assurance of the Nigerian towards phasing out inefficient fossil fuel subsidies at Government’s commitment to delivering elections which upcoming summits. The Foreign and Commonwealth meet global benchmarks, which he echoed in his joint Office will work to maintain the profile of the issue at video message with the Foreign Secretary following the next G20 meeting in Seoul. Ministers and officials their meeting: 389W Written Answers14 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 390W

http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/news/latest-news/ HEALTH ?view=News&id=22933216 In my statement on 8 September: Back Pain: Medical Treatments http://ukinnigeria.fco.gov.uk/en/news/ ?view=News&id=22827681 Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for I welcomed President Jonathan’s commitment to credible Health how many patients in (a) North Yorkshire, elections and the appointment of the new Chair of the (b) Darlington and (c) Cambridgeshire have received Independent National Electoral Commission (INEC), facet joint injections in the last 12 months. [17104] underlining the need to press on with transparent arrangements to overhaul the voter register. The UK Paul Burstow: The following table provides a count of (through our high commission and Department for finished consultant episodes (FCEs) where there was a International Development programmes), alongside main or secondary procedure or intervention of V54.4— international partners, continues to provide assistance injection around spinal facet of spine, at North Yorkshire to INEC, the National Assembly, media, political party and York, Darlington, and Cambridgeshire Primary structures, civil society, police and the judiciary. Care Trusts (PCTs) of residence for 2008-09. Activity in English national health service hospitals and English NHS commissioned activity in the independent sector Philippines: Foreign Relations PCT of residence FCEs Darlington PCT 182 North Yorkshire and York PCT 1,019 Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Cambridgeshire PCT 551 and Commonwealth Affairs what recent assessment Notes: he has made of the state of UK relations with the 1. A FCE is a continuous period of admitted patient care under one Philippines government; and if he will make a consultant within one health care provider. FCEs are counted against statement. the year in which they end. Figures do not represent the number of [17336] different patients, as a person may have more than one episode of care within the same stay in hospital or in different stays in the same year. The figures represent admitted patient care only. Mr Jeremy Browne: The UK enjoys excellent relations 2. Number of episodes with a (named) main or secondary procedure: The number of episodes where the procedure (or intervention) was with the Philippines. I visited Manila in July this year, recorded in any of the 24 (12 from 2002-03 to 2006-07 and four prior where I met with newly elected President Aquino, the to 2002-03) procedure fields in a HES record. A record is only Secretary of Foreign Affairs and Members of the Cabinet. included once in each count, even if the procedure is recorded in more than one procedure field of the record. More procedures are carried The UK is the largest EU source of foreign investment out than episodes with a main or secondary procedure. For example, into the Philippines. We have been actively involved in patients under going a ‘cataract operation’ would tend to have at least efforts to bring about a lasting peace in Mindanao in two procedures—removal of the faulty lens and the fitting of a new the southern Philippines through our membership of one—counted in a single episode. 3. HES are compiled from data sent by more than 300 national health an International Contact Group assisting the peace service trusts and PCTs in England, and from some independent negotiations. In addition, the UK-based Filipino community sector organisations for activity commissioned by the English NHS. of over 250,000 makes a hugely valuable contribution The Information Centre for health and social care liaises closely with to the UK, particularly in the health and care sectors. these organisations to encourage submission of complete and valid data and seeks to minimise inaccuracies. While this brings about improvement over time, some shortcomings remain. Source: Trade Unions Hospital Episode Statistics (HES), the Information Centre for health and social care

Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Cancer and Commonwealth Affairs how much his Department has paid to trade unions in each year since 1997; and Mr Baron: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what estimate he has made of the monetary value of how many patients aged (a) 49 years and under, (b) 50 facilities provided by his Department for use by trade to 59 years, (c) 60 to 69 years, (d) 70 to 79 years and unions in each year since 1997. [11673] (e) over 80 years were diagnosed with each type of cancer through the two-week referral pathway in (i) each cancer network, (ii) each primary care trust and Alistair Burt: The Foreign and Commonwealth Office (iii) England in each year since that pathway was (FCO) does not make any payments to trade unions in established. [17166] the UK. Members of staff who belong to any trade union pay their own subscriptions which are either Paul Burstow: Any patient urgently referred for suspected deducted from their salaries and paid to the relevant cancer by their general practitioner (GP) will be subject union or paid directly by the staff in the form of direct to the two week wait guarantee. Of these patients, any debits. individual subsequently diagnosed with, and treated The FCO provides office facilities to its union for, cancer in the English national health service should representatives and meets day-to-day running costs within receive that treatment within 62 days. Statistics detailing the rules of public expenditure set out in FCO guidance. the specific diagnoses or ages of these patients are not An accurate estimate of the monetary value of facilities published due to the small numbers involved and the provided since 1997 could be obtained only at risk of disclosure of confidential information about disproportionate cost. patients. 391W Written Answers14 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 392W

In the most recent period for which statistics are Number of people receiving first available (Quarter 1 2010-11), 25,590 patients were treated treatment for cancer after urgent GP for cancer following an urgent GP referral for suspected Primary care trust referral for suspected cancer cancer. Darlington PCT 208 These data were first published at an all cancer, all Derby City PCT 501 ages level by primary care trust (PCT) for the year Derbyshire County PCT 1,520 2009-10. Statistics for this period show that 97,166 Devon PCT 2,017 patients from English PCTs were subsequently diagnosed Doncaster PCT 710 with cancer and treated in the English NHS following an urgent GP referral for suspected cancer. A full Dorset PCT 989 breakdown of these data by PCT has been provided as Dudley PCT 732 follows and may also be found on the Department’s Ealing PCT 287 website at: East and North Hertfordshire 926 PCT www.dh.gov.uk/en/Publicationsandstatistics/Statistics/ East Lancashire Teaching PCT 759 Performancedataandstatistics/ East Riding of Yorkshire PCT 823 HospitalWaitingTimesandListStatistics/CancerWaitingTimes/ East Sussex Downs and Weald 854 DH_119716 PCT Data are not published on a cancer network basis, Eastern and Coastal Kent PCT 1,784 these statistics are shown on either a PCT (commissioner) Enfield PCT 405 basis in annual datasets or on a trust (provider) basis Gateshead PCT 499 quarterly. These organisations are the constituent parts Gloucestershire PCT 1,154 of cancer networks. Great Yarmouth and Waveney 549 PCT Number of people receiving first Greenwich Teaching PCT 365 treatment for cancer after urgent GP Halton and St Helens PCT 476 Primary care trust referral for suspected cancer Hammersmith and Fulham 115 Ashton, Leigh and Wigan PCT 453 PCT Barking and Dagenham PCT 295 Hampshire PCT 2,642 Barnet PCT 451 Haringey Teaching PCT 208 Barnsley PCT 428 Harrow PCT 307 Bassetlaw PCT 195 Hartlepool PCT 188 Bath and North East Somerset 295 Hastings and Rother PCT 512 PCT Havering PCT 558 Bedfordshire PCT 773 Heart of Birmingham 205 Berkshire East PCT 436 Teaching PCT Berkshire West PCT 801 Herefordshire PCT 430 Bexley Care Trust 419 Heywood, Middleton and 346 Rochdale PCT Birmingham East and North 668 PCT Hillingdon PCT 263 Blackburn with Darwen PCT 244 Hounslow PCT 180 Blackpool PCT 407 Hull Teaching PCT 511 Bolton PCT 442 Isle of Wight NHS PCT 311 Bournemouth and Poole 666 Islington PCT 214 Teaching PCT Kensington and Chelsea PCT 144 Bradford and Airedale 849 Kingston PCT 223 Teaching PCT Kirklees PCT 640 Brent Teaching PCT 266 Knowsley PCT 258 Brighton and Hove City PCT 350 Lambeth PCT 317 Bristol PCT 789 Leeds PCT 1,406 Bromley PCT 400 Leicester City PCT 389 Buckinghamshire PCT 883 Leicestershire County and 1,208 Bury PCT 345 Rutland PCT Calderdale PCT 354 Lewisham PCT 332 Cambridgeshire PCT 1,457 Lincolnshire Teaching PCT 1,963 Camden PCT 251 Liverpool PCT 904 Central and Eastern Cheshire 781 Luton PCT 218 PCT Manchester PCT 592 Central Lancashire PCT 881 Medway PCT 276 City and Hackney Teaching 253 Mid Essex PCT 621 PCT Middlesbrough PCT 291 Cornwall and Isles of Scilly 1,711 PCT Milton Keynes PCT 336 County Durham PCT 1,003 Newcastle PCT 528 Coventry Teaching PCT 573 Newham PCT 160 Croydon PCT 424 Norfolk PCT 1,827 Cumbria Teaching PCT 1,156 North East Essex PCT 613 393W Written Answers14 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 394W

Number of people receiving first Number of people receiving first treatment for cancer after urgent GP treatment for cancer after urgent GP Primary care trust referral for suspected cancer Primary care trust referral for suspected cancer

North East Lincolnshire Care 343 West Essex PCT 425 Trust Plus West Hertfordshire PCT 768 North Lancashire Teaching 924 West Kent PCT 1,157 PCT West Sussex PCT 1,625 North Lincolnshire PCT 370 Western Cheshire PCT 614 North Somerset PCT 472 Westminster PCT 149 North Staffordshire PCT 494 Wiltshire PCT 806 North Tyneside PCT 442 Wirral PCT 692 North Yorkshire and York 1,750 Wolverhampton City PCT 484 PCT Worcestershire PCT 1,026 Northamptonshire Teaching 1,295 PCT Northumberland Care Trust 686 England 97,166 Nottingham City PCT 561 Notes: Nottinghamshire County 1,672 1. The NHS cancer plan all cancer 62-day referral to treatment Teaching PCT standard dataset includes those patients separately identified in the 31-day referral to treatment standard for rare cancers. Oldham PCT 348 2. Data are for all cancers, which refers to any case of diagnosed Oxfordshire PCT 1,265 cancer regardless of cancer type. Peterborough PCT 275 Source: Plymouth Teaching PCT 769 Commissioner Based Cancer Waiting times April 2009 to March 2010 (England only). Portsmouth City Teaching 422 PCT Cancer: Drugs Redbridge PCT 348 Redcar and Cleveland PCT 354 Chris Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Richmond and Twickenham 196 what assessment he has made of the likely effect of his PCT proposed cancer drugs fund on patients with gastric Rotherham PCT 384 cancer. [16704] Salford PCT 428 Sandwell PCT 517 Mr Simon Burns: We have made no such assessment. Sefton PCT 646 Along with the additional funding for cancer drugs in Sheffield PCT 1,048 England already in place, the Cancer Drugs Fund will, Shropshire County PCT 506 from April 2011, provide cancer patients in England Solihull Care Trust 393 with greater access to the clinically effective drugs their Somerset PCT 1,489 doctors think will help extend or improve their quality South Birmingham PCT 574 of life. South East Essex PCT 603 South Gloucestershire PCT 455 Chronic Obstructive Pulmonary Disease South Staffordshire PCT 1,246 South Tyneside PCT 341 Ian Mearns: To ask the Secretary of State for Health South West Essex PCT 548 what recent assessment he has made of the regional Southampton City PCT 438 variations in the prevalence of chronic obstructive Southwark PCT 255 pulmonary disease. [16840] Stockport PCT 516 Stockton-on-Tees Teaching 447 Mr Simon Burns: General practitioners (GPs) gather PCT data on the prevalence of chronic obstructive pulmonary Stoke on Trent PCT 672 disease (COPD) through the Quality and Outcomes Suffolk PCT 1,395 Framework. This means that data on recorded COPD Sunderland Teaching PCT 608 prevalence are available for each GP practice, as well as Surrey PCT 1,834 for larger geographic areas such as primary care trust Sutton and Merton PCT 511 and strategic health authority. The raw data for 2008-09 Swindon PCT 321 are publicly available at: Tameside and Glossop PCT 434 www.ic.nhs.uk/statistics-and-data-collections/supporting- information/audits-and-performance/the-quality-and- Telford and Wrekin PCT 216 outcomes-framework/qof-2008/09/data-tables/prevalence- Torbay Care Trust 414 data-tables Tower Hamlets PCT 288 The consultation document on a strategy for services Trafford PCT 362 for COPD in England contains an estimate of all COPD Wakefield District PCT 781 prevalence (including unrecorded prevalence), but this Walsall Teaching PCT 380 estimate has not currently been disaggregated by region. Waltham Forest PCT 229 The Department has appointed respiratory clinical Wandsworth PCT 276 leads in each of the 10 strategic health authorities in the Warrington PCT 305 United Kingdom and they have been provided with Warwickshire PCT 1,081 some benchmarking data. Part of the responsibility of 395W Written Answers14 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 396W these posts is to champion the reduction of any regional The amount of funding spent on dementia services is variation through local action, leading to improved not separately identified within the audited summarisation patient outcomes at reduced cost to the national health schedules held by the Department of Health. PCT service. revenue allocations from 2006-07 to 2010-11 to East and North Hertfordshire PCT and West Hertfordshire Dementia: Drugs PCT are set out in the following table. PCT revenue allocations post 2010-11 will be announced later this year. Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Health if he will take steps to ensure that the National Allocation (£000) Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence review of East and North West Hertfordshire dementia drugs assesses all available data and Hertfordshire PCT PCT treatment options for the management of behavioural symptoms in dementia to ensure that clinicians and 2006-07 608,574 627,084 carers have clear guidance on (a) how to reduce the 2007-08 667,728 679,655 number of prescriptions for antipsychotic drugs and 2008-09 704,199 716,778 (b) managing behavioural symptoms; and if he will 2009-10 759,311 773,604 make a statement. [16728] 2010-11 803,338 813,380 Notes: 1. Allocations are not always comparable between years because of Mr Simon Burns: This is a matter for the National changes to baseline funding. Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence (NICE) as 2. The 2006-07 allocations and 2007-08 were made to 303 PCTs. The an independent body. NICE is currently updating its number of PCTs was reduced from 303 to 152 on 1 October 2006. existing guidance on the use of donepezil, galantamine, Where the new PCT was a merger of two or more former PCTs, the rivastigmine and memantine for the treatment of allocations for the new PCTs are the sum of allocations for the former PCTs. In the few places where former PCTs divided between two or Alzheimer’s disease and further information is available more new PCTs allocations have been estimated for the new PCTs. at: http://guidance.nice.org.uk/TA/WaveR111/1 In future, responsibility for the allocation of resources will transfer to the NHS Commissioning Board. The In developing its technology appraisal guidance, NICE board will calculate practice-level budgets and allocate routinely takes the latest available evidence into account, these directly to general practitioner (GP) consortia in including comparisons with alternative treatment options. late 2012 for 2013-14 on the basis of ensuring all areas In addition, NICE and the Social Care Institute for secure equal access to NHS services relative to the Excellence published a joint clinical guideline on dementia burden of disease and disability. GP consortia will be in November 2006 that provides guidance on the responsible for managing the combined commissioning management of behavioural symptoms and the use of budgets of their member GP practices, and using these antipsychotic drugs. NICE expects to consider whether resources to improve healthcare and health outcomes. this guidance needs to be reviewed in November 2011.

Dementia: Health Services Dementia: Hertfordshire

Stephen McPartland: To ask the Secretary of State Stephen McPartland: To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) how much funding he expects his for Health whether he plans to take steps to assist Department to allocate for dementia services dementia patients in East and North Hertfordshire (a) nationally, (b) in Hertfordshire and (c) in East Primary Care Trust. [16094] and North Hertfordshire Primary Care Trust in each of the next five years; and if he will make a statement; Paul Burstow: This is an issue for Hertfordshire primary [15820] care trust (PCT), which is best placed to understand the (2) how much has been spent on dementia services in needs and pressures specific to the local area. However, (a) Hertfordshire and (b) East and North £150 million has been made available to PCTs— Hertfordshire Primary Care Trust in each of the last £60 million in 2009-10 and £90 million in 2010-11—to five years. [15821] implement the National Dementia Strategy. This investment has been made alongside the publication Paul Burstow: The Department currently allocates by the Department of a new National Dementia Strategy revenue funding directly to primary care trusts (PCTs). Implementation plan to support the work of PCTs and In 2010-11, an additional £90 million was included in local authorities in implementing the strategy. Information PCT allocations to support the delivery of the National will also be available in November from a national audit Dementia Strategy. of dementia services. This will allow people to assess PCT allocations are not broken down by policy area. how their local services compare with other areas, and PCTs make decisions on investment in healthcare for the extent to which the strategy is being implemented in their communities, taking into account both local and their locality. national priorities. However, in the revised NHS Operating The Revision to the Operating Framework for the Framework issued by the Department in June 2010, the National Health Service in England 2010-11 set out coalition Government indicated their greater priority that NHS organisations should be working with partners for dementia by requiring PCTs and their partners to on implementing the National Dementia Strategy and publish how they are implementing the National Dementia should publish their implementation plans in order to Strategy to increase local accountability for prioritisation. increase local accountability for prioritisation. 397W Written Answers14 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 398W

Diabetes: Health Services Kerry McCarthy: To ask the Secretary of State for Health when he plans to respond to the report John Glen: To ask the Secretary of State for Health commissioned by his Department on Raising our how many (a) men and (b) women in each age group sights: services for adults with profound intellectual with each type of diabetes were admitted to hospital as and multiple disabilities. [17176] an emergency for treatment for (i) diabetic ketoacidosis and (ii) hypoglycaemic emergency in the last five years. Paul Burstow: We expect to give a formal departmental [16701] response by the end of the year. Departmental officials are currently examining the Paul Burstow: The tables with the information have detailed recommendations set out in the report and how been placed in the Library. these support our objectives to improve outcomes for The tables show emergency hospital admissions with people with learning disabilities who have complex needs a primary diagnosis of diabetic ketoacidosis or and their families. The elements of good service and hypoglycaemic coma between 2004-05 and 200-09, the good practice examples included in this report sit very latest year for which data are available, broken down by clearly within the programme of work which Government 20 year age, gender and type of diabetes. are leading to support independent living for people with learning disabilities and to support local service John Glen: To ask the Secretary of State for Health planning and commissioning to meet identified needs in what the average cost of a hospital admission for their locality. hypoglycaemic emergency for a patient with type 1 diabetes was in the latest period for which figures are Epilepsy: Health Services available. [16703] Mr Wallace: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Paul Burstow: The Department does not hold what plans he has for the delivery of epilepsy services information on the average cost of a hospital admission following the planned ending of primary care trusts in for hypoglycaemic emergency for a patient with type 1 2013. [16713] diabetes as reference costs do not distinguish between the two types. However, the average unit cost of diabetes Paul Burstow: The White Paper will devolve power (including both type 1 and type 2) with hypoglycaemic and responsibility for commissioning services for epilepsy disorders in England in 2008-09 was £1,060. to general practitioners (GPs). The establishment of an independent and accountable NHS Commissioning Board John Glen: To ask the Secretary of State for Health will allocate and account for national health service what the annual average cost to the public purse resources, leading on quality improvement and promoting is of treatment of a patient with type 1 diabetes with patient involvement and choice. (a) multiple daily injections and (b) insulin pump The board will also set commissioning guidelines and therapy. [16700] approaches that promote joint working between health and social care. The National Service Framework for Paul Burstow: The Department does not hold Long-term neurological Services itself, and the outcomes information on the average cost of treatment of a statements, provides a framework for NHS commissioners patient with type 1 diabetes for multiple daily injections to commission and develop services for people with or insulin pump therapy. Guidance is available from neurological conditions. National Institute of Health and Clinical Excellence in Technology Appraisal TA151, which includes a costing Commissioning by GP consortia will enable the redesign template for use in local implementation. of care pathways to reflect the needs of their patients, which ultimately will lead to the more effective management Disability of long-term conditions such as epilepsy. Additionally, Quality Standards will be based on Mr Burley: To ask the Secretary of State for Health relevant National Institute for Health and Clinical when he plans to respond to the report by Professor Excellence (NICE) guidelines, and address the often-voiced Jim Mansell on Raising our sights: services for adults concern of patient groups that commissioners do not with profound intellectual and multiple disabilities. commission in line with NICE clinical guidelines. [16781] Health Services: Cooperatives Catherine McKinnell: To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) when he plans to respond to Professor Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for Jim Mansell’s report on Raising our sights: services for Health (1) if he will make it his policy to support local adults with profound intellectual and multiple authorities in developing mutual organisations for disabilities; [16849] social care direct payments; [17081] (2) what assessment he has made of the (2) if he will bring forward proposals to ensure that recommendations made in Professor Jim Mansell’s all service users and carers have access to a local direct report on Raising our sights: services for adults with payments mutual organisations. [17082] profound intellectual and multiple disabilities; [16850] (3) when he plans to respond to the Paul Burstow: The Government’s vision for adult recommendations of the report Raising our sights: social care, to be published in November 2010, will set services for adults with profound intellectual and out an enhanced role for the voluntary and community multiple disabilities. [17628] sector in providing services. 399W Written Answers14 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 400W

The Government recognise that, in order for a person Paul Burstow: The Mental Health Act 1983 (which to live a fulfilling and independent life, they must be was amended by the Mental Health Act 2007) is primarily able to control the care and support they need. concerned with the legal framework for the compulsory Personalisation is key to achieving this, and we want care and treatment of people with mental disorders, to see an increase in the number of people in receipt of rather than with the provision of services. There is personal budgets. nothing in the Act specifically to enable mental health services to provide early preventive treatment to individuals. Mutual organisations have a vital role to play in Such services are, however, widely provided by the supporting people to make use of personal budgets. national health service, not least through dedicated early intervention teams for younger people experiencing Health Services: Disadvantaged a first episode of psychosis. Prevention is one of a number of key themes we are addressing in the preparation Steve Baker: To ask the Secretary of State for Health of the Government’s new mental health strategy. if he will put in place mechanisms to ensure the NHS NHS: Manpower better meets the needs of the most disadvantaged people; and if he will make a statement. [16305] Liz Kendall: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Anne Milton: The Government have made it clear how many (a) nurses, (b) clinical staff, (c) non- that tackling health inequalities is a priority. Everyone clinical staff and (d) managerial posts remain unfilled should have the same opportunities to lead a healthy as a result of the NHS recruitment freeze. [16629] life, no matter where they live, or who they are. The national health service has a critical role to play in Mr Simon Burns: There is no current freeze on national reducing the health inequalities that effect disadvantaged health service recruitment. It is for each NHS organisation people, and the White Paper, “Equity and Excellence: to take its own decisions about recruitment policies. Liberating the NHS”, published on 12 July 2010, would NHS: Public Participation create an explicit NHS duty on tackling inequalities in access to NHS healthcare and the outcomes for that care. Our aim is to create an NHS that is much more Kerry McCarthy: To ask the Secretary of State for responsive to patients, putting them at the heart of Health if he will take steps to ensure that the work of everything it does, and that reduces inequalities in care. LINk groups continues after March 2011. [16730] The White Paper also sets out plans for the new Mr Simon Burns: The Department’s consultation public health service that would have an important role papers on the future of the national health service, in reducing these inequalities. The public health budget including ‘Equity and Excellence: Liberating the NHS’, would be ring-fenced and allocated to reflect relative ‘Liberating the NHS: Commissioning for Patients’ and population health outcomes, with a new “health premium” ‘Liberating the NHS: Local Democratic Legitimacy in to promote action to reduce health inequalities. We Health’ set out proposals to establish HealthWatch, at would therefore create a service that both recognises the both a national and local level, in England from April impact of deprivation and rewards improvement, providing 2012. In those documents it was made clear that the further incentives to reduce inequalities in health. We proposals envisaged that local HealthWatch organisations expect to publish a White Paper on public health later would evolve from the current system of local involvement this year, outlining the Government’s plans for establishing networks (LINks). The consultation period for these the new public health service, and also mapping a documents has now closed and the Government are cross-Government strategy on public health. considering their response. The duty on local authorities to ensure LINk activities Hospitals: Food are carried on in their area, as set out in the Local Government and Public Involvement in Health Act, Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for 2007 (Part 14), will remain in place until any legislation Health what proportion of food supplied to hospitals to establish HealthWatch, proposed in the consultation, under contracts negotiated by NHS Supply Chain was is approved by Parliament. domestically produced in the latest period for which figures are available. [16858] Psychiatry: Regulation

Mr Simon Burns: The latest figure available is for Kerry McCarthy: To ask the Secretary of State for 2008-09 and this shows that 64.5% of food supplied to Health what plans he has for the future regulation of hospitals under contracts negotiated by NHS Supply psychotherapists. [16670] Chain was domestically produced. Anne Milton: The Government are currently considering their overall strategy in relation to professional regulation, Mentally Ill: Community Care including the regulation of psychotherapists and counsellors. No final decisions have been made. Adam Afriyie: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what mechanisms are in place under the Mental Tom Blenkinsop: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Act 2007 to enable community mental health Health what recent representations he has received teams to offer early preventive treatment to individuals on the regulation of counselling and psychotherapy in with mental disorders who may pose a danger to the respect of an (a) basic standard of training and safety of themselves or others. [17027] (b) compulsory code of conduct. [16911] 401W Written Answers14 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 402W

Anne Milton: Since May, the Department has received (10) how many (a) genetically modified animals and at least 216 pieces of correspondence regarding the (b) animals with a harmful genetic defect were used in regulation of psychotherapists and counsellors by the regulated procedures under the Animals (Scientific Health Professions Council. It is unclear how many of Procedures) Act 1986 conducted in Wales in 2009. these pieces of correspondence may have been written [16555] about basic standards of training or compulsory code of conduct. Lynne Featherstone: You have tabled 10 questions regarding the Statistics of Scientific Procedures on Living Animals for Wales in 2009. While figures for Great HOME DEPARTMENT Britain are published annually, the latest being on 27 July 2010, it would take significant work to run the systems Animal Welfare specifically to obtain data for Wales and then to check that none of the data was disclosive or breached any Roger Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for the confidentiality guarantees given to respondents. For Home Department (1) how many regulated procedures this reason, I will write to you separately when we have under the Animals (Scientific Procedures) Act 1986 had sufficient time to compile and check the information were carried out in Wales in 2009; [16533] you requested. A copy of the letter will be placed in the (2) how many procedures carried out on animals in Libraries of the House. Wales under the Animals (Scientific Procedures) Act 1986 involved (a) New World primates and (b) Old World primates in 2009; and what the primary purpose Roger Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for the of those procedures were; [16543] Home Department how many infringements of the Animals (Scientific Procedures) Act 1986 in Wales were (3) what the (a) primary purpose and (b) field of recorded in 2009; and how many resulted in a research was of each procedure carried out on animals prosecution. [16545] in Wales under the Animals (Scientific Procedures) Act 1986 involving (i) fish, (ii) pigs and (iii) genetically modified animals in 2009; and for what reason there Lynne Featherstone: There were no recorded was an increase in the number of procedures carried infringements of the Animals (Scientific Procedures) out on (A) fish, (B) pigs and (C) genetically-modified Act 1986 at designated establishments in Wales during animals in Wales in 2009 compared to the previous 2009. year; [16544] (4) what proportion of procedures regulated under Roger Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for the Animals (Scientific Procedures) Act 1986 carried the Home Department how many sites in Wales out in Wales were conducted without anaesthesia in were designated as a (a) supplying, (b) breeding 2009; [16549] and (c) scientific procedure establishment under (5) how many (a) mice, (b) rats, (c) guinea pigs, the Animals (Scientific Procedures) Act 1986 at the end (d) hamsters, (e) rabbits, (f) horses and other equids, of 2009. [16547] (g) sheep, (h) pigs, (i) birds, (j) amphibians, (k) reptiles, (l) fish, (m) cats, (n) dogs, (o) New Lynne Featherstone: As at 31 December 2009 in Wales World primates and (p) Old World primates were used there were one supplying, two breeding and eight user in procedures conducted in Wales and regulated under establishments designated under the Animals (Scientific the Animals (Scientific Procedures) Act 1986 in 2009; Procedures) Act 1986. An establishment can be a user, [16550] breeder and supplier. (6) how many individual animals were used in procedures regulated under the Animals (Scientific Procedures) Act 1986 in Wales in 2009; [16551] Animal Welfare: Licences (7) how many regulated procedures under the Animals (Scientific Procedures) Act 1986 conducted in Wales involved (a) cats, (b) dogs, (c) rabbits, Roger Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for the (d) horses and other equids, (e) New World primates Home Department how many project licences for work and (f) Old World primates which (i) were genetically in Wales were granted under the Animals (Scientific modified and (ii) had a harmful genetic defect in 2009; Procedures) Act 1986 in 2009; and how many such licences were in force at the end of 2009. [16546] [16552] (8) what proportion of regulated procedures under the Animals (Scientific Procedures) Act 1986 conducted Lynne Featherstone: During 2009 13 project licences in Wales were carried out for (a) fundamental and were granted under the Animals (Scientific Procedures) applied studies other than toxicology and (b) toxicity Act 1986 in Wales. On 31 December 2009 there were 76 tests or other safety and efficacy evaluation in 2009; project licences in force in Wales. [16553] (9) what proportion of regulated procedures under Roger Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for the the Animals (Scientific Procedures) Act 1986 Home Department what proportion of the project conducted in Wales were performed in (a) public licences granted under the Animals (Scientific health laboratories, (b) universities and medical Procedures) Act 1986 and in force in Wales at the schools, (c) NHS hospitals, (d) Government departments, end of 2009 were in the (a) mild, (b) moderate, (e) other public bodies, (f) non-profit making organisations (c) substantial and (d) unclassified severity banding. and (g) commercial organisations in 2009; [16554] [16548] 403W Written Answers14 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 404W

Lynne Featherstone: During 2009, in Wales, 59% of Members: Correspondence the project licences granted under the Animals (Scientific Procedures) Act 1986 were in the mild severity banding, Mr Winnick: To ask the Secretary of State for the 41% in moderate, there were none in substantial or Home Department when she plans to respond to unclassified. the letter from the hon. Member for Walsall North of 2 September to the Minister of State on a constituent, Immigration ref: K2160664 and CTS M12547/10. [17323]

Mr Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State Damian Green: A reply was sent to the hon. Member for the Home Department how many individuals who on 12 October 2010. at the time of their application for indefinite leave to remain in the UK were resident in the Peterborough Migration Impact Fund City Council area were granted such leave in the latest period for which figures are available; and if she will Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for the make a statement. [16864] Home Department what her policy is on the provision of further funding to the Migration Impact Fund. Damian Green: The UK Border Agency is unable to [17052] provide definitive data on the applicants address at the time of application. The information provided is therefore Damian Green: My right hon. Friend the Secretary of the applicants last known address. State for Communities and Local Government announced The following table lists applications made for indefinite on 22 June that the Migration Impacts Fund would be leave from April 2009 to March 2010 for applicants coming to an end on 1 October 2010. living in the Peterborough city council area . It also shows the number of these applicants that were Racial and Religious Hatred Act 2006: Convictions subsequently granted. Sammy Wilson: To ask the Secretary of State for Number the Home Department how many people have been Applications made Applications granted (a) charged and (b) convicted under the provisions of 2009 the Racial and Religious Hatred Act 2006. [16847] April 31 29 May 35 30 The Solicitor-General: I have been asked to reply. June 56 52 The Racial and Religious Hatred Act 2006, which July 60 52 came into force on 1 October 2007, inserted into Part August 49 44 III of the Public Order Act 1986 offences relating to September 55 48 stirring up hatred against persons on religious grounds. October 23 18 Prosecutions for this offence require the consent of the Attorney-General. November 28 27 December 45 42 Since 1 October 2007 only one person has been charged with any offence of stirring up religious hatred, and that person (Anthony Bamber) was acquitted on 2010 21 June 2010. January 66 57 February 42 34 Rape: Finance March 65 56 Total 555 489 Note: This is internal management information and is subject to Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for the change. This information has not been quality assured under National Home Department what funding her Department Statistics protocols. provided to sexual abuse and rape counselling services in (a) England and (b) Wales in the latest period for Immigration: Appeals which figures are available; and on what date each such payment was made. [17107] Mrs Main: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department on how many occasions the UK Lynne Featherstone: The coalition has committed to Border Agency has made a request to the Tribunals giving rape crisis centres stable, long-term funding—and Service to re-send appeal determination notifications to build new centres where they are needed. from the First-tier Tribunal (Immigration and Asylum Funding provided to sexual abuse and rape counselling Chamber) and its predecessors in the last 12 months. services in England [16778] The Department of Health and the Home Office Ministers have agreed to provide £3.2 million to improve Damian Green: The UK Border Agency does not Sexual Assault Referral Centre (SARC) service provision hold information on the number of occasions it has for victims of sexual assault for 2010-11. The first made a request to the Tribunals Service to re-send resource payments are being administered through the appeal determination notifications from the First-tier Department of Health and grant agreements for capital Tribunal (Immigration and Asylum Chamber) and its funding have been issued by the Home Office. First predecessors in the last 12 months. payments of capital funding will be made in October. 405W Written Answers14 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 406W

43 independent sexual violence adviser (ISVA) posts Mr O’Brien: We have not had any formal discussions have been part funded in England by the Home Office with our EU counterparts on the effects of food speculation in 2010-11. A total of £860,000 was allocated for this on developing countries. But our view is that speculation purpose in July 2010. is unlikely to have played a significant and damaging The Home office has also made £150,000 available to role in recent food price volatility. third sector organisations to support their work with Our view is supported by the European Commission the specialist sector. £75,000 was paid to Rape Crisis in who have also concluded that: September 2010 and a payment will shortly be made to “the balance of available evidence does not support the speculative the Survivors Trust. bubble theory” Funding provided to sexual abuse and rape counselling in the 2007-08 food price spike. Similarly, a recent services in Wales OECD report finds that: he Home Office has allocated £55,293 in total for “index funds did not cause a bubble in commodity futures Sexual Assault Referral Centres (SARCs) in Wales in prices”. the financial year 2010-1. This consists of £25,520 resource and £29,773 capital for SARC funding. The Home Office is due to make this payment later in Global Fund to Fight AIDS, Tuberculosis and Malaria October.

Terrorism: Deportation Mr Douglas Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development what recent discussions he has had with the head of the Global Fund for Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for the AIDS, Tuberculosis and Malaria on the donor Home Department how many persons convicted of replenishment meeting. [16993] terrorist offences were awaiting deportation on the latest date for which figures are available; to which Mr Andrew Mitchell: I met Michel Kazatchkine, countries; and for how long following the date of Executive Director of the Global Fund to fight AIDS, conviction each has been awaiting deportation. [15560] TB and Malaria, on 17 August and again in the margins of the MDG Summit in New York. We discussed the Damian Green: The UK Border Agency seeks to Multilateral Aid Review, which will look at core funding deport foreign national offenders who meet the following provided by the Department for International Development criteria for deportation: (DFID) to multilateral agencies. The review will include A court recommendation. an assessment of the relevance of the Global Fund to For non-EEA nationals—a custodial sentence of 12 months or the UK’s objectives on poverty reduction and its ability more either in one sentence, or as an aggregate of two or three to deliver results on the ground. The results of the sentences over a period of five years or a custodial sentence of Multilateral Aid Review will be an important element any length for a drug offence (an offence other than possession only). in any future funding decisions in respect of the fund. I also spoke with Michel Kazatchkine in London on For EEA nationals—a custodial sentence of 12 months or more for an offence involving drugs, violent or sexual crimes or a 27 September at the viewing of the UN Foundation’s custodial sentence of 24 months or more for other offences. documentary ‘A New Picture of Health’. Deportation action may also be taken even where At the recent Global Fund replenishment conference these criteria are not met if this is deemed to be conducive DFID reaffirmed our £1 billion pledge from 2008 to to the public good for other reasons. 2015, subject to the results of the Multilateral Aid At the point where no barriers to removal exist— Review. including where any custodial sentence has been served and where there is no outstanding appeal—the UK Border Agency will set a direction to remove. According Overseas Aid to provisional management information on 10 September 2010 approximately 150 foreign national prisoners who Mr Douglas Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State meet the relevant deportation criteria had removal directions for International Development what mechanisms he set against them. Of these none had a primary criminal has put in place to provide for contributions to be offence recorded as being terrorist-related. made to international agencies by his Department As there were no terrorist related offences we are unable whilst its multilateral aid review is ongoing. [16992] to provide information as to which country the individual was from or how long following the date of conviction Mr Andrew Mitchell: The outcome of the Multilateral each has been awaiting deportation. Aid Review will be published early next year. Interim decisions on funding for multilateral partners need to balance the requirements to minimise disruption to the work of our partners and ensure consistency with the INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT results of the review. My Department is in contact with our partner institutions to discuss whether financing Food: Prices decisions can be delayed for a short period without adversely affecting their work on the ground. Where Sammy Wilson: To ask the Secretary of State for this is not possible, or where a delay in an announcement International Development what discussions he has of UK funding may delay negotiations with other donors, had with his EU counterparts on the effects on I will make an earlier decision, informed by the evidence developing countries of food speculation. [16841] and analysis already gathered during the review. 407W Written Answers14 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 408W

Mr Douglas Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State Departmental Freedom of Information for International Development whether he plans to retain the target of spending 0.7% of gross national Dr Huppert: To ask the Secretary of State for income on official development assistance from the Scotland what steps his Department is taking to year 2013; and whether he plans to bring forward improve its level of compliance with the provisions of legislation to provide for such targets. [16994] the Freedom of Information Act 2000. [16998]

Mr Andrew Mitchell: Yes. David Mundell: The Scotland Office endeavours to handle all FOI requests in accordance with statutory requirements and good practice. Internal procedures NORTHERN IRELAND have been reviewed to ensure that all requests are answered Departmental Manpower as quickly as possible; all relevant staff have been briefed on the Information Commissioner’s recent report; Gregg McClymont: To ask the Secretary of State for and the Scotland Office senior management team monitors Northern Ireland how many officials his Department performance on a monthly basis. For the most recent has appointed on fixed-term contracts since 7 May quarter, the Scotland Office exceeded 86% within 20 2010. [16797] working days, which is above the Information Commissioner’s acceptable level of performance. Mr Paterson: Since 7 May 2010 there have not been any appointments on fixed-term contracts. Devolution: Scotland Departmental Work Experience Mr Wallace: To ask the Secretary of State for Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what discussions he has had with CBI Northern Ireland how many interns his Department (a) Scotland and (b) UK on the effects on PAYE has engaged in the last 12 months; and how many were schemes administered from England and Wales of (a) unpaid, (b) remunerated with expenses only and the implementation of the recommendations of the (c) paid a salary. [17206] Calman Commission. [16824] Mr Paterson: The Northern Ireland Office (NIO) has not engaged any interns in the last 12 months. Michael Moore: I have frequent discussions with representatives from CBI Scotland on a range of issues. The Director of CBI Scotland was one of the Caiman SCOTLAND Commissioners and CBI Scotland are now represented on the Implementation Group referred to in the Exchequer Departmental Carbon Emissions Secretary to the Treasury’s answer to written question 16400 on 11 October 2010, Official Report, column 235. Jeremy Lefroy: To ask the Secretary of State for When this group first met, both the Exchequer Secretary Scotland whether he has made an estimate of the to the Treasury and I invited all participants to liaise change in the level of carbon dioxide emissions from closely with the Government as the work to implement his Department since May 2010; and what steps he the recommendations of the Caiman Commission plans to take to meet his Department’s target of progresses. reducing such emissions by 10 per cent. by May 2011. [16816] Future Jobs Fund: Scotland David Mundell: The Scotland Office has estimated the change in the level of carbon dioxide emissions Ian Murray: To ask the Secretary of State for from its estate for the period between May and July Scotland what discussions he has had with the 2010 in accordance with the 10% reduction campaign Secretary of State for Work and Pensions on the criteria announced by the Prime Minister on 14 May evidential basis for the value for money of the Future 2010. Compared with the same period last year, a Jobs Fund in Scotland. [17322] reduction of in excess of 10% has been achieved by introducing a wide range of energy saving initiatives. Michael Moore: I have had a number of discussions with the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions and Departmental Drinking Water will continue to engage with him going forward. Nick de Bois: To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland how much his Department has spent on bottled water in each year since 2008. [16871] TRANSPORT David Mundell: The Scotland Office spend on bottled Bicycles water is as follows: Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Cost (£) Transport whether he has made a recent assessment of 2007-08 2,880 the number of bicycles which may be carried on trains 2008-09 2,607 operated by each train operator; and whether he plans 2009-10 1,302 to take steps to increase that number. [16897] These figures do not include any bottled water obtained Mrs Villiers: It is a commercial consideration for the for ministerial hospitality events, as this is subsumed individual train operating companies to provide storage within the supplier’s invoice and not recorded separately. space for cycles on their trains. It is not for the Department 409W Written Answers14 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 410W for Transport to dictate how many cycle spaces an When an individual makes multiple complaints about operator should provide, but we do encourage train the same issue, each complaint is recorded separately. operators to accommodate folding bicycles at all times. The figures represent the number of complaints received We are also noting the progress of the Station Travel rather than the number of individuals making a complaint. Plan pilot project being run by the rail industry to encourage rail passengers to use more sustainable forms Highways Agency: Vehicles of transport, including cycling, to travel to and from stations. Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport how many traffic officer vehicles the Bus Services: Rural Areas Highways Agency leased in the latest period for which figures are available; and from which companies those Julian Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for vehicles were leased. [17311] Transport what his policy is on ensuring continued access to bus services for rural communities. [17200] Mike Penning: The Highways Agency has leased 207 vehicles within the last 12 months. All vehicles are Norman Baker: It is local authorities that are best leased from Lex Autolease, Windsor House, Castlebrook placed to ensure that rural communities are able to Business Park, Hollins Brook Way, Bury, BL9 8RT. access jobs and essential services—by bus, flexible services such as dial-a-ride, or by bringing services directly to Humber Bridge the door. They have a statutory duty to produce local transport plans, which we believe remain the best way for authorities to plan transport strategy and delivery. Mr Graham Stuart: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport how much interest has been charged on the In areas where frequent public transport services are original loan to build the Humber Bridge since it was not commercially viable, the voluntary and community taken out. [17161] sector have a large role to play in delivering long-term sustainable alternatives. The Government are committed Norman Baker: The Humber Bridge Board has paid a to supporting partnership working between local authorities, net amount of £247 million in interest between 1981-82 commercial providers and the voluntary sector that to 2009-10. A total of £502 million has been paid in delivers tailor made local services. interest, less £255 million which was paid by Government Rather than prescribing one method from Whitehall, in grants between 1991-92 to 1997-98, to enable the we will therefore provide greater funding freedoms and interest to be paid. flexibilities at a local level. As part of this approach, the Government recently announced a Local Sustainable Motor Sports Transport Fund which will support local transport and encourage more sustainable travel solutions based on local need. Mr Wallace: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport which Minister in his Department has policy Departmental Public Expenditure responsibility for the provisions of the Road Traffic Act 1988 which are required to be suspended to enable Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for rallying to take place on public roads; which division of Transport how much of his Department’s expenditure his Department handles policy on this issue; and if he supported the work of charities and voluntary will make a statement. [17373] organisations in the latest period for which figures are available (a) directly and (b) indirectly. [17100] Mike Penning: I am the Minister who has policy responsibility for these provisions of the Road Traffic Norman Baker: I regret that the information requested Act 1988, sections 12, 13 and 13A. Under this Act, cannot be provided except at disproportionate cost. motor racing on the public highway is prohibited. However, competitions and trials (other than a race or trial of Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency: Complaints speed) may be held in accordance with the Motor Vehicles (Competition and Trials) Regulations 1969. A Andrew Bridgen: To ask the Secretary of State for small number of on-road race events in Great Britain Transport how many complaints the Driver and have over the years been authorised by individual private Vehicle Licensing Agency has received from driving Acts of Parliament. licence holders who claim to have had categories The Department for Transport Road User Safety deleted from their driving licence on renewal or division handles policy on this issue. replacement in each year since 2007. [17045] Railway Stations: Birmingham Mike Penning: The Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency only holds statistics on complaints received through its formal procedures since July 2007. Richard Burden: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport when he expects the Access for All scheme at The number of complaints received from drivers Northfield station in Birmingham to be (a) started claiming that entitlement is missing from their driving and (b) completed. [16595] licence in each year since then is: 2007: 18 Mrs Villiers: Based on the most recent project data 2008: 109 supplied by Network Rail, building work on the Access 2009: 150 for All scheme at Northfield station is scheduled to 2010: 33. 411W Written Answers14 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 412W start in August 2011 and finish by September 2012. The facilities that rolling stock contains. As part of these scheme is currently at design stage and the anticipated considerations they will need to judge the impact of any final cost of the project is circa £2,531,000. changes to rolling stock on all their passengers. The Department for Transport is currently consulting Railways: Birmingham on reforms to the franchising system. One of the proposals under consideration is whether to use passenger satisfaction Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for measures as part of the means by which franchise Transport what recent estimate his Department has performance is assessed. If a decision is made to go made of the public expenditure required for the ahead with passenger satisfaction metrics as part of development of the proposed London to Birmingham future franchise obligations, passenger perceptions and High Speed 2 rail line in each year from 2010 to 2015. views about facilities such as stations and toilets may [16899] have an impact on the performance of train operators against these new measures. Mr Philip Hammond: The Department for Transport Rapid Transit Systems: Bedfordshire has estimated that £21 million will be required in expenditure during the current financial year (2010-11) for the Andrew Selous: To ask the Secretary of State for development of the high speed rail proposals. This Transport whether any private funding has been expenditure relates largely to development of and public provided for the Luton Dunstable Guided Busway. consultation on the proposed London to Birmingham [17372] line, but also includes work on options for an extended network serving Manchester and Leeds. Norman Baker: Luton borough council has secured In addition, the Department has estimated that £50 £3.4 million in private sector contributions towards the million will be required to fund the purchase of properties cost of the Luton Dunstable Guided Busway. under the HS2 Exceptional Hardship Scheme over the period August 2010 to December 2011. Roads Schemes Public expenditure in future years is subject to the Mr Wallace: To ask the Secretary of State for outcome of the 2010 spending review. Transport whether local authorities are entitled to reclaim from Government money spent on the Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for planning process for road schemes cancelled by his Transport for what reasons his Department has not Department. [16715] published an environmental impact assessment for the proposed London to Birmingham High Speed 2 route Norman Baker: The Secretary of State suspended the through the Chilterns Area of Outstanding Natural previous guidance on local authority major schemes Beauty; and if he will make a statement. [16901] on 10 June 2010. The written ministerial statement of 10 June 2010, Official Report, column 35WS, that Mr Philip Hammond: Subject to the outcome of announced this made it clear that the Department for public consultation, the necessary powers to construct Transport does not accept any liability for development any new high speed rail line would be sought through a or preparatory costs incurred to date or which may be hybrid Bill. It would be as part of the hybrid Bill incurred going forward while funding remains uncertain. process that an Environmental Impact Assessment would The Department will announce new arrangements be produced to satisfy the requirements of the EU’s for local authority major schemes as soon as possible Environmental Impact Assessment Directive. following the conclusion of the spending review. However, a full Appraisal of Sustainability will be published in order to inform public consultation prior Roads: Telephones to the forthcoming consultation on proposals for a high Andrew Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for speed line between London and the West Midlands. Transport what progress has been made on the roll-out This will set out the environmental and local impacts of of emergency roadside telephones with T-loop and text that route, including those in the Chilterns Area of facilities for the deaf and hard of hearing. [17351] Outstanding Natural Beauty. Mike Penning: The roll-out of emergency roadside Railways: Sanitation telephones with T-loop and text facilities is 80% complete. It is anticipated that the installation programme will be Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for completed in June 2011. All new and old versions of the Transport if he will discuss with train operating emergency roadside telephones have T-loop facility. companies the effects on (a) people with Crohn’s Severn Bridges Tolls disease, (b) elderly people, (c) parents with babies under the age of one year and (d) children under five Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State years of the operation of trains which run without for Transport whether he has made a recent assessment toilet facilities on journeys of (i) one and (ii) one and a of the effects on the economy of Wales of the Severn half hours. [17587] Bridges tolls. [17090] Mrs Villiers: The rolling stock that is deployed on the Mike Penning: There has been no recent assessment rail network is a matter for the individual train operating of the effects on the economy of Wales of the Severn companies. It is for them to decide what rolling stock is Bridges’ tolls. However both the Welsh Affairs Committee deployed on particular routes and services, and what and the Welsh Assembly Government are undertaking 413W Written Answers14 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 414W separate reviews of the effects of the Severn Bridges’ Goldman Sachs: Fines tolls on the economy of Wales. Both are due to report back with their findings next year. I will consider the Caroline Lucas: To ask the Chancellor of the findings of these reports. Exchequer if he will transfer into the first account of the Green Investment Bank the proceeds of the £20 million fine imposed in September 2010 on Goldman Sachs by the Financial Services Authority for failure to inform the financial regulator of details of an TREASURY international staff transfer. [16280]

Credit: Interest Rates Mr Hoban: The matter concerned is the responsibility of the Financial Services Authority (FSA), whose day- to-day operations are independent from Government Nicky Morgan: To ask the Chancellor of the control and influence. However, I understand that any Exchequer (1) what recent discussions he has had with financial penalties that the FSA levies are not treated as ministerial colleagues on the variation between the a benefit to the FSA but are instead rebated to fee-payers interest rates offered by loan and credit companies, in the subsequent financial year. with particular reference to those offered to applicants The Government are considering a wide range of with poor credit histories; [16913] options for the scope and structure of the Green Investment (2) what recent representations he has received on Bank and will put forward detailed proposals following the (a) regulation of and (b) variation in interest rates the spending review. offered by loan and credit companies. [16914] International Assistance Mr Davey: I have been asked to reply. The Government are keen to encourage responsible Andrew Gwynne: To ask the Chancellor of the lending and borrowing on fair terms. I have held discussions Exchequer when he plans to lay before Parliament his with ministerial colleagues and received informal Department’s next report on Government activity at representations from both lenders and consumer groups the World Bank and International Monetary Fund. on a range of consumer credit issues, including the [16397] interest rates charged by lenders. In July I announced a joint BIS HM Treasury review Mr Hoban: The Government are fully committed to of consumer credit and personal insolvency. The transparency and accountability with regard to their Government believe that this is the right time for a activities at the international financial institutions. The properly targeted review of certain aspects of the credit Treasure is reviewing options for reporting on the UK’s and debt market, including high cost credit and the relationship with International Monetary Fund (IMF), levels of interest rates charged for credit and store cards. and how best to engage Parliament in further debate on BIS has just published a call for evidence that seeks to the UK’s role within the IMF. The Secretary of State help us better understand the key issues and ensure we for Development is the UK’s Governor to the World are concentrating the review on the priorities for consumers Bank and is therefore responsible for reporting on the and lenders. UK’s activities at the World Bank.

Members: Correspondence Financial Services: EU Action Sir Gerald Kaufman: To ask the Chancellor of the Philip Davies: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer when he plans to reply to the letter of Exchequer what negotiating position his Department 31 August from the right hon. Member for Manchester, adopted in discussions on the EU framework for Gorton on Mr B. James. [17676] financial supervision agreed in the Council of Ministers; and if he will make a statement. [17392] Mr Hoban: I have replied to the right hon. Member.

Mr Hoban: The new European framework has the Northern Rock Foundation potential to fundamentally improve the quality and consistency of supervision, ensure more effective rulemaking Chi Onwurah: To ask the Chancellor of the with the framework provided by directives and enforcement, Exchequer what the policy of UK Financial and better identify risks in the financial system. Investments Ltd is on funding the Northern Rock The framework ensures that day-to-day supervision Foundation after April 2011. [17084] of financial institutions will remain at the national level and establishes that the new European Supervisory Mr Hoban: Northern Rock plc and Northern Rock Authorities cannot take decisions that impinge on member (Asset Management) are managed at arm’s length from states’ fiscal responsibilities. It also ensures that the new Government, on commercial principles, by an experienced authorities have requirements for high standards of management team. The Government’s shareholding in governance, transparency and accountability. Northern Rock plc and Northern Rock (Asset The Government support the new framework and Management) is then the responsibility of UK Financial welcome the decision to base the European Banking Investments (UKFI), and a shareholder framework authority in London, recognising the UK’s importance agreement has been published which sets out how UKFI as Europe’s global financial centre. operates its shareholder relationship with the company. 415W Written Answers14 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 416W

As with other business decisions, any future relationship Pensioners: Kilmarnock with the foundation is a matter for the separate boards of Northern Rock plc and Northern Rock (Asset Cathy Jamieson: To ask the Secretary of State for Management). Work and Pensions whether he has made a recent estimate of the number of pensioners in Kilmarnock and Loudoun constituency who (a) receive the basic WORK AND PENSIONS state pension, (b) receive pension credit and (c) are eligible for pension credit but do not claim it. [17133] Disability Living Allowance: Medical Examinations Steve Webb: The document “Caseloads for selected Jon Trickett: To ask the Secretary of State for Work benefits by 2010 Parliamentary Constituencies February and Pensions what organisations he will consult on the 2010” is available in the Library and includes figures for development of the new medical assessment for pension credit and state pension. eligibility for the disability living allowance; what the Estimates of eligibility and therefore those who are dates will be of the consultation; and when decisions entitled to pension credit but have not claimed it are not will be announced. [13909] available below the level of Great Britain. Maria Miller: We recognise the importance of involving The latest estimates of the take-up rates and the disabled people and their representatives, as well as number of those entitled but not receiving pension healthcare and other professionals with relevant expertise, credit are published in the report “Income Related in the design of the new assessment for disability living Benefits Estimates of Take-Up in 2008-09” which can allowance. To ensure that all organisations and individuals be accessed via the following link: with an interest in this area have the opportunity to http://statistics.dwp.gov.uk/asd/index.php?page=irb contribute their views we will hold a public consultation on the new assessment in autumn this year. Social Security Benefits In addition to this broader consultation process, a disability living allowance assessment development group Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and comprising of disabled people and relevant health Pensions whether he has made a recent estimate of the professionals and others with expertise in this area has number of households in each parliamentary been created to advise on the development of the new constituency who receive more than £500 per week in assessment. state benefits. [16767] Future Jobs Fund: Kilmarnock Chris Grayling: The information requested is not available at a parliamentary constituency level. Cathy Jamieson: To ask the Secretary of State for The information is available for Great Britain. Latest Work and Pensions which organisations with registered estimates show that in 2010-11 there are around 100,000 business premises in Kilmarnock and Loudoun working age households in receipt of more than £500 a constituency have been approved to provide week in all benefits and tax credits, including disability employment under the Future Jobs Fund. [17131] living allowance. If disability living allowance is excluded then around 50,000 working age households are in Chris Grayling: The Department does not hold records receipt of more than £500 a week. of all of the organisations that are providing employment The Chancellor’s announcement of a benefit cap was through the Future Jobs Fund. Details of Lead Accountable informed by high-level consideration of the broad impacts. Bodies who have been successful in receiving FJF awards We are now working up the more detailed design of the are available here: caps as part of the spending review. When we introduce http://campaigns.dwp.gov.uk/campaigns/futurejobsfund/ legislation for the implementation of the caps, we shall index.asp publish an impact assessment. Future Jobs Fund: West Lothian Note: All figures are rounded to the nearest 50,000. Graeme Morrice: To ask the Secretary of State for Source: Work and Pensions how many residents of the West DWP Policy Simulation Model, based on the 2008-09 Family Lothian Council area aged (a) 18 to 24 years and (b) Resources Survey data over 24 years who had been out of work and claiming jobseeker’s allowance for more than six months have Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and found employment through the Future Jobs Fund since Pensions whether he has made a recent estimate of the the Fund was established. [15927] number of households in (a) Scotland and (b) the UK who receive more than £500 per week in state benefits. Chris Grayling: The YoungPerson’s Guarantee statistics [16768] were published on 11 August 2010 and are available here: Chris Grayling: The information requested for Scotland http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/index.php?paqe=ypg is not available as sample sizes are too small to yield Statistics are available on the Future Jobs Fund which reliable results. covers the period from October 2009 to May 2010. The information is available for Great Britain. Latest They show that there were 4,460 recorded Future Jobs estimates show that in 2010-11 there are around 100,000 Fund starts in the Scotland region. The information working age households in receipt of more than £500 a requested for West Lothian is not available. week in all benefits and tax credits, including disability 417W Written Answers14 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 418W living allowance. If disability living allowance is excluded The latest available information on the number of then around 50,000 working age households are in individuals receiving winter fuel payments in the City of receipt of more than £500 a week. Chester constituency is available in the document “Winter The Chancellor’s announcement of a benefit cap was Fuel Payment recipients 2009-2010 by Parliamentary informed by high-level consideration of the broad impacts. Constituencies and Gender (All)”. This is available in We are now working up the more detailed design of the the House of Commons Library and on the internet at: caps as part of the spending review. When we introduce http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/index.php?page=wfp legislation for the implementation of the caps, we shall Information on whether the individuals are higher publish an impact assessment. rate taxpayers is not available. Note: All figures are rounded to the nearest 50,000. Source: Winter Fuel Payments: Scotland DWP Policy Simulation Model, based on the 2008/09 Family Resources Survey data Ann McKechin: To ask the Secretary of State for Winter Fuel Payments: Chester Work and Pensions what his most recent estimate is of the number of people in each parliamentary constituency in Scotland who are entitled to the winter Stephen Mosley: To ask the Secretary of State for fuel allowance. [17074] Work and Pensions how many residents of City of Chester constituency claim winter fuel allowance; and how many such residents are higher rate taxpayers. Steve Webb: The information is available in the document [17321] “Winter Fuel Payment recipients 2009-10 by Parliamentary Constituencies and Gender (All)”. This is available in Steve Webb: Most winter fuel payments are paid the House of Commons Library and on the internet at: automatically without the need to claim them. http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/index.php?paqe=wfp

ORAL ANSWERS

Thursday 14 October 2010

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS...... 467 BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS—continued Adult and Community Learning...... 467 Local Enterprise Partnerships...... 470 Adult Education ...... 468 Non-Departmental Public Bodies ...... 476 Apprenticeships ...... 471 Royal Mail (Yorkshire and North East) ...... 478 Business Regulation ...... 479 Science and Innovation ...... 472 Company Reporting (Operating and Financial Small Business Finance...... 474 Review) ...... 480 Small Business Finance...... 481 Graduate Employability...... 481 Topical Questions ...... 482 Green Investment Bank ...... 477 Tuition Fees ...... 469 Grocery Supply Code of Practice...... 476 WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Thursday 14 October 2010

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 26WS HOME DEPARTMENT...... 31WS Additional Freedom (Further Education Justice and Home Affairs Post-Council Statement. 31WS Colleges) ...... 26WS Returns to Zimbabwe...... 34WS Schengen Agreement (Correction to Written CABINET OFFICE...... 26WS Answer)...... 35WS “Building a Stronger Civil Society”...... 28WS Public Bodies Reform ...... 26WS JUSTICE...... 36WS Her Majesty’s Courts Service...... 36WS DEFENCE...... 28WS Updating the Coroner System...... 36WS Afghanistan: Training ...... 28WS TRANSPORT ...... 38WS HEALTH...... 29WS EU Transport Council - 15 October 2010...... 38WS Generic Medicines ...... 29WS Learning Disabilities or Mental Illness TREASURY ...... 25WS Development of Services...... 29WS Restricting Pensions Tax Relief ...... 25WS Six Lives: The Provision of Public Services to People with Learning Disabilities...... 30WS WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 39WS Support for Those Affected by Contaminated The Employment, Social Policy, Health and Blood ...... 30WS Consumer Affairs Council ...... 39WS WRITTEN ANSWERS

Thursday 14 October 2010

Col. No. Col. No. ATTORNEY-GENERAL ...... 357W BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS—continued Telephone Tapping...... 357W News International ...... 367W Overseas Trade: Philippines ...... 367W Research: Manpower ...... 368W BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 357W Skills Funding Agency: Information Officers...... 368W Anti-counterfeiting Trade Agreement ...... 357W Sunday Trading...... 368W Business: Co-ownership ...... 358W Tuition Fees ...... 357W Business: Government Assistance ...... 358W Unemployment: Graduates...... 368W Business: Loans...... 359W Community Interest Companies ...... 360W Defence Equipment: Exports ...... 360W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 369W Departmental Manpower...... 360W Allotments ...... 369W Departmental Secondment ...... 361W Circulator Pumps: Energy...... 369W Export Credit Guarantees: Trinidad and Tobago... 361W Community Assets...... 370W Further Education: Finance...... 361W Community Relations ...... 370W Higher Education and Student Finance Empty Dwelling Management Orders...... 370W Independent Review...... 361W Housing: Carbon Emissions...... 371W Higher Education: Overseas Students ...... 362W Housing: Sustainable Development ...... 371W Higher Education: Per Capita Costs ...... 363W Voluntary Organisations: Finance...... 371W Higher Education: Primary Education...... 363W Higher Education: Young People ...... 364W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 371W Industry: Women ...... 364W Government Olympic Executive...... 371W Innovation ...... 366W Public Service Broadcasting ...... 373W Col. No. Col. No. CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT—continued HEALTH—continued Sports: Females...... 373W Mentally Ill: Community Care ...... 399W NHS: Manpower ...... 400W DEFENCE...... 374W NHS: Public Participation ...... 400W Armed Forces: Cadets...... 374W Psychiatry: Regulation ...... 400W Armed Forces: Housing ...... 374W Departmental Carbon Emissions ...... 375W HOME DEPARTMENT...... 401W Departmental Empty Property...... 375W Animal Welfare ...... 401W Departmental Work Experience...... 376W Animal Welfare: Licences...... 402W Patrol Craft...... 376W Immigration...... 403W Trident ...... 376W Immigration: Appeals ...... 403W Members: Correspondence ...... 404W EDUCATION...... 376W Migration Impact Fund ...... 404W Building Schools for the Future Programme: Racial and Religious Hatred Act 2006: North East...... 376W Convictions...... 404W Departmental Contracts ...... 377W Rape: Finance ...... 404W Departmental Empty Property...... 377W Terrorism: Deportation...... 405W Departmental ICT ...... 378W Departmental Public Expenditure...... 378W INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 405W Free Schools...... 378W Food: Prices ...... 405W GCE A-level...... 378W Global Fund to Fight AIDS, Tuberculosis and National Curriculum Tests...... 379W Malaria...... 406W Schools: Libraries ...... 379W Overseas Aid...... 406W Science: GCE A-level ...... 379W Teachers: Recruitment ...... 380W NORTHERN IRELAND ...... 407W Departmental Manpower...... 407W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 380W Departmental Work Experience...... 407W Carbon Sequestration ...... 380W Circulator Pumps: Energy...... 381W SCOTLAND...... 407W Electricity Generation...... 381W Departmental Carbon Emissions ...... 407W Fuel Poverty: West Midlands ...... 381W Departmental Drinking Water ...... 407W Natural Gas: Storage ...... 382W Departmental Freedom of Information ...... 408W Offshore Industry...... 382W Devolution: Scotland ...... 408W Renewable Energy...... 382W Future Jobs Fund: Scotland...... 408W Sizewell B Power Station: Safety ...... 382W TRANSPORT ...... 408W Bicycles ...... 408W ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL Bus Services: Rural Areas ...... 409W AFFAIRS...... 383W Departmental Public Expenditure...... 409W Departmental Drinking Water ...... 383W Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency: Marine Management Organisation: Manpower ..... 383W Complaints ...... 409W National Wildlife Crime Unit: Finance...... 384W Highways Agency: Vehicles...... 410W Special Areas of Conservation ...... 384W Humber Bridge ...... 410W Motor Sports ...... 410W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 385W Railway Stations: Birmingham...... 410W BBC External Services ...... 385W Railways: Birmingham...... 411W Departmental Billing ...... 385W Railways: Sanitation...... 411W Departmental Public Expenditure...... 386W Rapid Transit Systems: Bedfordshire...... 412W Developing Countries: Fossil Fuels...... 387W Roads Schemes ...... 412W Iran: Nuclear Power...... 388W Roads: Telephones ...... 412W Nigeria: Christianity ...... 388W Severn Bridges Tolls...... 412W Nigeria: Elections...... 388W Philippines: Foreign Relations...... 389W TREASURY ...... 413W Trade Unions ...... 389W Credit: Interest Rates ...... 413W Financial Services: EU Action ...... 413W HEALTH...... 390W Goldman Sachs: Fines ...... 414W Back Pain: Medical Treatments...... 390W International Assistance...... 414W Cancer ...... 390W Members: Correspondence ...... 414W Cancer: Drugs...... 394W Northern Rock Foundation ...... 414W Chronic Obstructive Pulmonary Disease...... 394W Dementia: Drugs...... 395W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 415W Dementia: Health Services ...... 395W Disability Living Allowance: Medical Dementia: Hertfordshire ...... 396W Examinations...... 415W Diabetes: Health Services...... 397W Future Jobs Fund: Kilmarnock...... 415W Disability ...... 397W Future Jobs Fund: West Lothian...... 415W Epilepsy: Health Services ...... 398W Pensioners: Kilmarnock...... 416W Health Services: Cooperatives...... 398W Social Security Benefits...... 416W Health Services: Disadvantaged ...... 399W Winter Fuel Payments: Chester...... 417W Hospitals: Food ...... 399W Winter Fuel Payments: Scotland ...... 418W Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. 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CONTENTS

Thursday 14 October 2010

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 467] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills

Business of the House [Col. 489] Statement—(Sir George Young)

Public Bodies Reform [Col. 505] Statement—(Mr Maude)

National Insurance Contributions [Col. 520] Bill presented, and read the First time

Backbench Business [5th allotted day] Contaminated Blood and Blood Products [Col. 521] Motion—(Mr Robinson)—on a Division, negatived

Anti-Slavery Day [Col. 574] Motion—(Mr Bone)—lapsed

East Coast Inshore Fishing Fleet [Col. 599] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall Banking in Scotland [Col. 149WH] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Written Ministerial Statements [Col. 25WS]

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 357W] [see index inside back page]