Tuesday Volume 586 21 October 2014 No. 46

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Tuesday 21 October 2014

£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2014 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 739 21 OCTOBER 2014 740

The US chief negotiator confirms that the United States House of Commons has no provision in its trade agreements on health. The EU chief negotiator says: Tuesday 21 October 2014 “I wish… to stress that our approach to services negotiations excludes any commitment on public services, and the governments remain at any time free to decide that certain services should be provided by the public sector.” The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock Mr Watts: Before the election, there was a promise that there would be no top-down reorganisation of the PRAYERS NHS. Given the concern of the Opposition and the BMA, will the Minister meet the BMA to work out how we can get a cast iron assurance that these TTIP talks [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] will not be used to privatise the NHS? George Freeman: I will happily meet the BMA, but such a request is a bit rich coming from a Labour party Oral Answers to Questions that legislated to introduce competition in the health service and to pay private sector providers 11% more, which is now illegal under the Health and Social Care Act 2012. Let me be clear about this, and I can be no HEALTH clearer than the Labour member of the all-party group for TTIP, who said that The Secretary of State was asked— “my direct discussions with the EU’s chief negotiator have helped produce an EU promise to fully protect our health service…TTIP Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership could have no impact on the UK’s sovereign right to make changes to the NHS.” 1. Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): What Stephen Hammond (Wimbledon) (Con): I am grateful progress he has made on negotiations relating to the to the Minister for confirming that these negotiations potential effect of the Transatlantic Trade and Investment will have no effect on NHS services and how they are Partnership on the NHS. [905538] provided. With his life sciences hat on, will the Minister also confirm that this treaty gives us a real advantage as 6. Mr Dave Watts (St Helens North) (Lab): What UK companies will be able to compete in the American assessment he has made of the potential effect of the market? Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership on NHS services. [905543] George Freeman: My hon. Friend makes an excellent point. As well as providing a £10 billion boost to the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health economy, which I am surprised to see that the left is not (George Freeman): The Government’s aim and my central in favour of, and securing 13 million jobs in the EU, this mission as the new Minister for life sciences is to accelerate treaty also helps our NHS pioneers and innovators and access for NHS patients to the very latest diagnostic our UK life science companies generate revenue for this devices and drugs by making the UK the best place in country from our innovations in health care in the the world in which to develop innovative treatments. world’s biggest health care market. The US is a world leader in medical technology and TTIP will help NHS patients get faster access to those Chris Heaton-Harris (Daventry) (Con): Is it not the innovations. Let me be clear: the treaty excludes the case that free trade agreements have always grown the NHS from binding commitments. Parliament will retain economies that have contracted within those agreements, sovereignty over how we organise and fund our health and a growing economy can only benefit the NHS in the system and NHS England is free to decide how best to future? commission NHS services in the clinical interests of George Freeman: My hon. Friend makes an important local patients, as it does today. point. The truth is that we cannot have a strong economy without a strong NHS, and we cannot have a strong Caroline Lucas: I thank the Minister for his answer NHS without a strong economy. In a modern society, and I welcome him to his new post. If his assurances health and wealth go hand in hand, which is why this were remotely credible then surely the British Medical treaty, with the safeguards that we have secured, is good Association would not have called for health to be for Britain and good for NHS patients. excluded from TTIP entirely. Will the Minister confirm that under the investor-state dispute mechanism, US Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): Some 3 million corporations will be able to challenge our national people with diabetes have not received their full health health policy decisions for ad hoc arbitration tribunals checks, and 630,000 people have diabetes but do not and potentially sue us for millions of dollars in damages know about it. Will the Minister give us an assurance for loss of profit in the event of any moves to reverse the that nothing in this deal will affect the ability of people coalition’s privatisation agenda and bring the NHS to have free diabetes tests? back fully into public hands? George Freeman: The last time I checked the TTIP George Freeman: No, I will not confirm that, but the negotiations do not make any specific provision for hon. Lady does not have to take it from me. She can access to those services within the NHS. All I can do is take it from the people who are doing the negotiations. remind the right hon. Gentleman that over the course 741 Oral Answers21 OCTOBER 2014 Oral Answers 742 of this Parliament, we have invested another £12 billion, “The…CCG will continue to commission MSK related trauma hired more doctors and nurses and increased the provision from the current providers and the intention is for this to continue of diagnostics in the NHS. This treaty does not affect for the duration of this MSK…contract”. that. 23. [905562] Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab): What is the Minister doing to retain GPs as Sir Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): Will my hon. Friend there is considerable concern in Coventry about the confirm that there is absolutely no requirement in TTIP number who are leaving practice? for this or any future Government to open NHS health care services to further competition and private sector Dr Poulter: I hope that I can reassure the hon. Gentleman provision, and that TTIP will have no effect on the that there are now 1,000 more GPs in training and ability of local NHS commissioners to decide who working in the NHS under this Government than when delivers services to patients? we came to power in 2010. We are committed to training even more GPs to ensure that we can widen access to George Freeman: I can absolutely provide that guarantee. general practice services. UK sovereignty on health is not in any way threatened by TTIP. As I have already told the House, safeguards Andrew George (St Ives) (LD): In what circumstances on this are being built in by both the American and the can clinical commissioning groups treat the NHS as a European negotiators. As my right hon. Friend points preferred provider, and in what circumstances are they out, clinical commissioning decisions in the NHS will forced to contract out services? rightly remain with the clinical commissioning groups, which include the people who are closest to the patients. Dr Poulter: As my hon. Friend will be aware, when commissioning services, it is important that regard is Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP): For the given not only to competition because, under the 2012 avoidance of any doubt, given that health is devolved to Act, we have ensured that there must be regard to Northern Ireland, what assurances can the Minister delivering an integrated and joined-up approach for give us that not just the UK Government, but the local services. That is an issue for local commissioners devolved Administrations, will be safeguarded from to decide in the best interests of the patients they look the investor-state dispute settlement mechanism? after.

George Freeman: The treaty’s provisions apply to the John Cryer (Leyton and Wanstead) (Lab): Are not whole United Kingdom, so it will be for the delegated certain CCGs starting to merge decision-making processes, authority of the people of Ulster and their Administration meaning that some important strategic decisions are to give effect to the treaty locally. removed even further from local communities and there is therefore a complete lack of accountability? NHS Facilities (Contracting Out) Dr Poulter: For some more specialist services, collaboration between various parts of the local NHS 2. Tim Loughton (East Worthing and Shoreham) will always be needed. That is about good health care (Con): What safeguards are in place for the sustainability commissioning and ensuring that services are joined up of NHS facilities when clinical commissioning groups in a collaborative way. Whereas day-to-day, bread-and- contract out local services. [905539] butter services will be commissioned by a local CCG, for more specialist services, clinical commissioners will The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health of course need to work together to ensure that local (Dr Daniel Poulter): The previous Government introduced centres of excellence are commissioned. greater competition to the NHS. This Government have ensured that it is for local doctors and nurses through Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con): The sustainability of clinical commissioning groups, rather than bureaucrats, NHS facilities is often prejudiced by the millstone of to decide how best to procure NHS services in the Labour’s private finance initiative deals. What is the interests of their patients. Government’s expectation of how CCGs should make the best of the hand that they have been dealt? Tim Loughton: As the Minister is aware, Coastal West Sussex CCG is controversially proposing to award Dr Poulter: My hon. Friend is absolutely right that a major contract for musculo-skeletal services to a PFI deals signed by the previous Government have social enterprise consortium rather than Worthinghospital. crippled the finances of many hospital trusts, meaning While I welcome new ways of working in the NHS, as that many of them are unable to invest as much in long as the quality of care for patients remains key, front-line patient care as they would like. It is important what safeguards are in place to ensure that existing that the Government support the mitigation of PFI NHS services such as trauma and accident and emergency, deals, when possible, and we have a group that is doing which we campaigned so hard to protect at Worthing exactly that and supporting local commissioners to deal hospital, are not compromised? with the worst excesses of the previous Government’s mismanagement of the NHS finances. Dr Poulter: The Health and Social Care Act 2012 A and E Waiting Times ensures that commissioners must also have regard to delivering integrated health care services. I reassure my 3. Mr Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op): hon. Friend that the West Sussex CCG has clearly How many patients waited longer than four hours in stated: A and E departments in 2013-14. [905540] 743 Oral Answers21 OCTOBER 2014 Oral Answers 744

8. Karl Turner (Kingston upon Hull East) (Lab): Mr Hunt: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Under How many patients waited longer than four hours in this Government, with the new inspection regime, we A and E departments in 2013-14. [905545] have had to take the difficult decision to put 18 hospitals into special measures, including East Kent. Six have The Secretary of State for Health (Mr Jeremy Hunt): now come out of special measures. We are tackling Of the 21.7 million attendances at all A and E departments these problems in the NHS by being honest about them. in England in 2013-14, 939,000 were not seen and I gently say to the Labour party that if it wants to be the treated within four hours, meaning that 95.7%—0.7% party of the NHS, it has to give the country confidence above the national target—were. I am pleased to inform that it will be honest about poor care when it comes the House that hospitals will have an extra 260 A and E across it. doctors this winter, bringing emergency medics in the NHS to a record high. Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab): On A and E, does the Secretary of State accept that we must do more to address the appalling statistic that one Mr Thomas: The reason for the big rise in A and E in four cancers is diagnosed in A and E departments? admissions in my area is the weekday closure of the At the weekend, Labour outlined plans dramatically to hugely popular Alexandra Avenue polyclinic. Will the reduce the wait for tests and results, paid for through a Secretary of State look again at Harrow’s NHS funding tobacco levy, which are supported by Macmillan, Cancer formula to determine whether that popular service could Research UK and the Royal College of Radiologists. be reopened? Will he now back those plans?

Mr Hunt: I am happy to look at the point that the Mr Hunt: I welcome the fact that Labour is thinking hon. Gentleman raises. I have visited the Northwick about how to improve our performance on cancer, Park A and E department, where the clinicians on the because in 2010 we had the worst cancer survival rates front line are working incredibly hard. As he knows, the in western Europe. I gently say to the Labour party that funding formula is decided independently—at arm’s the issue is only partly about the amount of time it takes length from politicians—but we have ensured that everyone to get a hospital appointment when one has a referral; a gets a real-terms rise. much bigger issue is the fact that we are not spotting cancers early enough in the first place. That is why I Karl Turner: Data published last Friday show that hope that Labour will also welcome the fact that in this A and Es have missed their waiting targets for 64 weeks Parliament we are on track to treat nearly 1 million on the bounce. They are in a worse state now than they more people for cancer than we did in the previous were last winter. What is going on? Parliament. That is real progress of which the whole House can be proud. Mr Hunt: First, I caution the hon. Gentleman on his use of statistics, because he is referring to a subset of Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): While it is A and Es, not all of them. Last year we hit our A and E working with one of the most outdated A and Es in the target. I say gently to Labour Members that they need NHS, and one that will require fresh capital investment, to be careful if they try to politicise operational issues, does the Secretary of State recognise the tremendous because people will note that in every year of this improvement at Kettering general hospital’s A and E, Parliament we have hit our A and E targets in England which in the past year has gone from one of the worst and Labour has missed its targets in Wales. performing to one of the best performing in the country? Mr Hunt: I absolutely recognise that, and I congratulate Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con): my hon. Friend on the very close interest he takes in Does the Secretary of State agree that the figures show what is happening at Kettering hospital. I have visited that the average wait before assessment in A and Es the hospital, as he knows, and think that it is working in England is now down to 30 minutes, as opposed to very hard and that it offers a very good example of how, 77 minutes under the previous Labour Government? even when times are tough, finances are tough and there is increasing pressure from an ageing population, it is Mr Hunt: My hon. Friend makes an important point. possible to increase and improve A and E performance. I just say to the Labour party that the time people wait It has done a terrific job. to be seen at A and Es has reduced while the number of people going to A and Es has increased, but in the end it NHS Trusts (Deficit Forecasts) will not be sustainable unless we invest in out-of-hospital care, which is why we need more personal care by GPs. 4. Ian Austin (Dudley North) (Lab): What estimate That is why we have brought back named GPs and why he has made of the number of NHS trusts forecasting a we have 1,000 more GPs than we did four years ago. deficit. [905541]

Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con): May I welcome the The Secretary of State for Health (Mr Jeremy Hunt): outstanding treatment provided at the A and E at the Eighty-six NHS trusts are forecasting a deficit this year. William Harvey hospital—part of East Kent Hospitals University NHS Foundation Trust—which I attended Ian Austin: Jobs at Russells Hall hospital are at risk as on a family emergency during the summer, and note managers battle with a £12 million deficit that the chief that the Care Quality Commission is getting striking executive says is critical. Staff are working flat out, but improvements in East Kent, rather than the sort of people are still waiting too long in A and E, and too cover-ups we used to see in the past? long for other treatment. What will the Secretary of 745 Oral Answers21 OCTOBER 2014 Oral Answers 746

State do to ensure that patients in Dudley and the Private Finance Initiative Costs hard-working staff at Russells Hall get the support they need? 5. Jesse Norman (Hereford and South Herefordshire) (Con): What steps he is taking to encourage hospital trusts to manage their PFI costs more effectively. Mr Hunt: I will tell the hon. Gentleman exactly what [905542] we are doing. The Dudley Group NHS Foundation Trust has 350 additional nurses this Parliament, and it The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health has got them because this Government took the difficult (Dr Daniel Poulter): PFI schemes have had their contracts decision to protect and increase the NHS budget, because reviewed for potential cost savings. A major data collection those of us on the Government Benches know that a on the results is currently under way. In 2013, the strong NHS needs a strong economy. We are taking Treasury launched a code of conduct for operational measures, but there is more to do. I recognise that the PFI contracts which contained a number of new guidelines staff on the front line are working very hard, but I think for better working relations between the public and that he should also give credit when things are starting private sector parties. to move in the right direction. Jesse Norman: Thanks to determined work with which I have been closely associated and with outside experts’ Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) (Con): My right advice, Hereford hospital has managed to save several hon. Friend will be aware of the strains placed on the million pounds on its exorbitant PFI contract—money budgets of the Countess of Chester NHS Trust because that is already being ploughed back into medicine and of the need to treat thousands of patients every year services for local people. My studies make it clear that who are fleeing the disastrous management of Labour there are hundreds of millions, if not billions, of pounds in Wales. What action is my right hon. Friend taking to still to be saved on the PFI across other NHS hospital ensure that hospitals on the English side of the border trusts. Will my hon. Friend press Monitor and the NHS get a fair share of resources? Trust Development Authority to do everything they can to encourage hospitals to take on specialist PFI contract Mr Hunt: My hon. Friend is right to talk about that advisers to help them make these savings? intolerable pressure on hospitals on the England-Wales border. For every one English patient admitted for Several hon. Members rose— treatment in a Welsh hospital, five Welsh patients are Mr Speaker: Order. Questions must be shorter. I say admitted for treatment in an English hospital, which with the greatest courtesy to the hon. Member for creates huge pressure for them. I have written to the Hereford and South Herefordshire (Jesse Norman) that Welsh Health Minister to say that the NHS is happy to to read out a prepared script and be too long is doubly treat more Welsh patients, but the trouble is that NHS bad, and it really is not excusable. Wales is not prepared to pay for it. That is why Welsh patients get a second-class health service. [Interruption.] Dr Poulter: My hon. Friend is right to highlight the fact that the annual cost of PFI left by the previous Mr Speaker: Order. The hon. Member for Caerphilly Administration is £1.79 billion, which will rise to £2.7 billion. (Wayne David) is normally a very calm and reserved It is right that we do all we can to support hospitals to fellow—almost statesmanlike. This curious behaviour is reduce the costs of PFI that have been inflicted upon quite out of character. He should take some sort of them, and we will continue to do that and work with the sedative. The hon. Member for Cardiff South and Penarth Treasury to make sure that that specialist advice is (Stephen Doughty) can probably advise him. available for the NHS to reduce the cost. Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): I Liz Kendall (Leicester West) (Lab): With hospitals set am worried that the members of the ministerial team to be £1 billion in the red this year, the Secretary of are living in some sort of parallel universe. At the State should be getting a grip of NHS finances. Instead, Calderdale and Huddersfield Trust we had a PFI. A he is starting on yet another reorganisation. First, he hospital that has a long history of success is now put NHS England in charge of commissioning primary struggling because it cannot get a management that and specialist care. Now, NHS England wants to hand works between the clinical commissioning groups and this back to clinical commissioning groups. Ministers the trust. That is the truth—it is chaos. have already wasted three years and £3 billion of taxpayers’ money. How much will this Secretary of State’s second Dr Poulter: There is nothing wrong with PFI schemes reorganisation cost? in principle; the point is the way in which they were put together by the previous Government. In 2011, the right hon. Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham) said: Mr Hunt: It is lovely spin from the party that carried “We made mistakes. I’m not defending every pen stroke of the out nine reorganisations in 13 years. The difficult truth PFI deals we signed”. for the Labour party is that this reorganisation that they Those PFI contracts have damaged local hospitals and fought so hard against has been a success. We are saving damaged local health care provision— this Parliament £5 billion. We have reduced the number of administrators by 19,000. We have hired 10,000 more Mr Speaker: Order. I just said to a Back Bencher that doctors and nurses with the money, and the result is his question was too long. I have said to the Minister that our NHS, in very difficult circumstances, is doing several times that his answers are not just too long, but nearly a million more operations every single year. That far too long, and if they do not get shorter I will have to is something that we on both sides of the House should ask him to resume his seat—which frankly, for a Minister, welcome and be proud of. is a bit feeble. 747 Oral Answers21 OCTOBER 2014 Oral Answers 748

Nick de Bois (Enfield North) (Con): Will the Minister Ambulance Response Times (London) confirm that unlike the PFI agreements for my neighbouring hospitals in north Middlesex and Barnet, which were 7. Heidi Alexander (Lewisham East) (Lab): What negotiated badly and ineffectively, the rebuild of Chase recent assessment he has made of the adequacy of Farm hospital will be funded by proceeds from its own ambulance response times in London. [905544] land sale and Treasury money, not PFI? The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health Dr Poulter: My hon. Friend makes an important (Jane Ellison): First, I praise the hard-working staff of point. Hospitals should always look to their own efficiencies the London ambulance service, who responded to 100,000 first by improving procurement practices and freeing up more calls last year. We know that the service is under surplus land to fund local schemes. His hospital has some pressure, and that is why we are providing extra done that very effectively, and it has not pursued the support to the NHS in London, including £15 million policies of the previous Government, which have put so for the ambulance service to help to ensure that the many trusts into difficulty. trust meets standards in future.

Mr Nicholas Brown (Newcastle upon Tyne East) (Lab): Heidi Alexander: London ambulances are taking, on Given the total forecast deficit across English hospital average, two minutes longer than they did three years trusts, including PFI schemes, is it still the Government’s ago to respond to the most serious call-outs. The chief position that the situation can be dealt with by efficiency executive of the service is quite open about the fact that savings alone? she does not have enough staff on each shift every day. This is a service in chaos. Will the Minister be explicit about the support her Government are giving to ensure Dr Poulter: During this Parliament we are set to that my constituents, and Londoners, get the service improve efficiency in the NHS and make £20 billion-worth they deserve? of efficiency savings. There is much more that we can continue to do on improving hospital procurement practices, 1Jane Ellison: This affects my constituents too, as I sharing business services across the NHS, and freeing am also a London MP and therefore take a very close up surplus land—which, as my hon. Friend the Member interest in it. I think it is unfair to say that the trust is in for Enfield North (Nick de Bois) outlined, is happening chaos. It is taking urgent steps to address the situation, at his hospital. That is what we need to focus on in including recruiting extra paramedics, increasing overtime, freeing up money for the front line. and reducing the number of multiple vehicles attending each call. We are working with Health Education England to increase the pool of paramedics, with 240 being Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con): Hexham hospital is trained in 2014, going up to 700 in 2018. Urgent measures outstanding but was built under a very expensive Tony are being taken to address the problem right now. I have Blair PFI. Does the Minister welcome the fact that had those assurances directly from managers in the Northumbria NHS trust is the first in the country to trust whom I met very recently. buy out the PFI and put it into public ownership, thereby putting millions more into front-line care? Mr Jamie Reed (Copeland) (Lab): It is a fact that ambulances are taking longer to reach patients in the most critical condition. Today we are publishing figures Dr Poulter: My hon. Friend makes an important regarding the increasing use of private ambulances. point. The PFI schemes negotiated by the previous Nobody expects a private company to respond when Government were, quite frankly, disastrous for many they dial 999. Private ambulance usage has grown by hospitals. His hospital has seen that the way forward is 82% in the past two years nationally and by over to buy out the PFI and free up more money for front-line 1,000% in London over the same period. Will the Secretary patient care. We will support as many more hospitals in of State now admit that he sees no limit to the role of doing that as can be achieved, because this is about private companies in the national health service? making sure that we deliver more money for NHS patients. Jane Ellison: That is complete nonsense. The previous Government occasionally deployed private ambulances, Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab): I was fascinated which trusts use occasionally when they need to do so. by the question from the hon. Member for Hexham This is another part of Labour’s myth of creeping (Guy Opperman). Would not the simple solution be to privatisation, which is not true—it is absolute nonsense. take all PFI assets back into public ownership, reintegrate It is important, however, in the interests of patient them with hospitals’ existing assets, and save millions of safety and as a short-term measure, that if that is what pounds for hospitals every year and billions of pounds it takes, trusts must do it, as happened under the for the public purse over time? previous Government, because patient safety comes first.

Dr Poulter: I understand that the hon. Gentleman is Mental Health Nurses unhappy with the way in which the previous Government negotiated PFI contracts. We are unhappy with it as well, because it is costing the NHS almost £2 billion on 9. Mike Kane (Wythenshawe and Sale East) (Lab): current forecasts. We are making sure that we can put in What estimate he has made of the number of mental place measures to support hospitals in mitigating the health nurses working in the NHS in each of the last worst excesses of these poorly signed PFI deals. three years. [905546] 1.[[Official Report, 27 October 2014, Vol. 587, c. 1-2MC.] 749 Oral Answers21 OCTOBER 2014 Oral Answers 750

The Minister of State, Department of Health (Norman NHS (North-East and Scotland) Lamb): Mental health nurses are not identified in the NHS work force statistics. They work predominantly in 10. Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD): If he psychiatric services, but also across a range of settings will take steps to encourage greater co-operation between and the independent sector. The total number of full-time the NHS in north-east England and in Scotland. equivalent nurses working in psychiatric services was [905547] 39,472 in July 2012, 38,772 in July 2013, and 38,055 in July 2014. Since June, NHS organisations, including The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health mental health trusts, have been required to report ward-level (Jane Ellison): Of course, it is important that the national nursing numbers against safe staffing levels on NHS health services in all four parts of the UK work together. Choices. Good examples of that are happening at the moment on major public health issues, as my right hon. Friend Mike Kane: I am sure the Minister will join me in can imagine. Providers in England can and do treat praising the hard work and dedication of all the staff at patients referred from Scotland, Wales and Northern Laureate House mental health facility in Wythenshawe Ireland. In England, we put emphasis on enabling patients hospital in my constituency. The Government talk the to choose where they will be treated, not on restricting talk, but do not walk the walk in terms of parity. Why that choice to providers in England. has there been a decline in the number of mental health doctors over the past two years? Sir Alan Beith: Does my hon. Friend agree that if someone’s nearest hospital or health centre is on the Norman Lamb: I also praise the work of the staff at other side of the border, the health bureaucracy should the hon. Gentleman’s local trust. There has actually not set up artificial barriers to access and any advice the been an increase of more than 2,800 practitioners in Department gives should reflect that principle? psychological therapy since 2010 as part of the IAPT programme—increasing access to psychological therapies Jane Ellison: I am aware that this concern has been —which I am sure the hon. Gentleman will be very highlighted for my right hon. Friend by a very difficult pleased to hear. For the first time, this Government are constituency issue with regard to Northumberland clinical introducing access and waiting time standards in mental commissioning group. To be clear, the CCG is free to health, and that gives us the basis to achieve genuine commission services from Scottish providers if it wishes equality for mental health for the first time ever. to do so. No one instructs a CCG on where to commission services from—that is a decision for the CCG and one Lorely Burt (Solihull) (LD): My local trust in Solihull of the strengths of the system. Convenience may not be tries to treat mentally ill patients out of hospital and at the most important factor in making that decision, but home whenever possible. That is commendable, but CCGs need to be assured of quality and standards. I am when a patient needs a bed they have to travel up to happy to talk to my right hon. Friend further about his 200 miles because the trust operates at 100% capacity particular case. most of the time. Does my right hon. Friend agree that Leeds Children’s Heart Unit that is unacceptable and that more beds should be made available locally? 11. Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con): When the third stage of the review into the closure of surgery at Norman Lamb: Yes, I agree that it is totally unacceptable Leeds children’s heart unit will be published. [905548] for patients to be sent a long way away from home. In children’s services, we are investing £7 million extra this The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health year to produce 50 more beds, and we are holding NHS (George Freeman): Safe, compassionate care is an absolute organisations to account to ensure that they provide priority for the Government. Publication of the Verita beds locally so that people do not have to travel long reports regarding the Leeds paediatric cardiac unit is a distances. matter for NHS England. The reports are due to be published on 28 October, and copies will be placed on Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op): the NHS England website. Research published yesterday by the Centre for Mental Health and the London School of Economics shows Jason McCartney: Constituents and clinicians continue that perinatal mental illness is costing our economy to tell me that the children’s heart surgery unit goes more than £8 billion each year. Does the Minister think from strength to strength, provides high-quality care, it is acceptable that half of mums do not have access and has the full confidence of NHS England. Does the to a service, are being separated from their babies, are Minister sympathise with patients, families and clinicians being forced to travel hundreds of miles for a bed, or who have faced uncertainty because of the delay of the are not getting any help at all? What is he going to do third stage of the review? about it? George Freeman: Yes, I absolutely sympathise: I Norman Lamb: The position has actually improved understand how important this is to local patients and significantly. Last week, I visited a fantastic perinatal their parents. As my hon. Friend knows, NHS England’s mental health service in Torbay where mums are getting review of children’s heart surgery goes back a very long support locally, as, indeed, they should be. I totally way—to the Bristol royal infirmary issues in the 1980s—and agree with the hon. Lady that it is unacceptable that I know that Leeds and Newcastle Members are actively people have to travel long distances, but across the engaged on it. I can say that there is no immediate country things are changing, and changing rapidly. threat to any congenital heart surgery unit. NHS England 751 Oral Answers21 OCTOBER 2014 Oral Answers 752 has held a drop-in session with all MPs, and I encourage Organisation has just launched some work in that area, Members to make representations to the consultation which will be of great interest to him. It would of on the national review. course be a delight to visit the project.

Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD): The reality Mr Speaker: These are splendidly succinct answers. is that NHS England has made a mess of this. I hope Perhaps the Minister should issue her textbook to her that it will finally apologise when the third stage of the colleagues. That would be extremely useful. review is published. On the process that we have now, will my hon. Friend confirm that it is an open and fair Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab): The Canadian process that will allow all units, including Leeds, to Government say that foetal alcohol spectrum disorder reach the important standards that we want for all our is the most important preventable cause of severe childhood units? brain damage. The Minister told me in Westminster Hall last week that the chief medical officer’s review of George Freeman: My hon. Friend makes an important the evidence is continuing. Is not the truth, however, point. This is a matter for NHS England to deal with. I that the evidence has been available for years, and that have made inquiries to ensure that the process is being the time has come for the review to be published and for followed as it should be. As I say, there is no immediate there to be much greater protection for the thousands of threat. The issues around the provision of congenital children who are damaged each year by women drinking heart disease services are not limited to Leeds. NHS in pregnancy? England is conducting a nationwide review of congenital heart services, which will look at the whole of life care Jane Ellison: We had a good debate last week in pathways available across the country. The truth is that Westminster Hall. My reply remains what it was then: congenital heart diseases are often very serious illnesses there is not complete clarity in clinical evidence on safe affecting life expectancy and quality of life for patients, levels of drinking. That is exactly why the chief medical who will expect NHS England to put in place the very officer—[Interruption.] From the Opposition Front Bench, highest quality care and service available. I hear cries of “Yes, there is.” I am sorry, but I am backing the UK’s chief medical officer over Opposition Front Benchers when it comes to the clinical basis for Rebalancing Project this. The review is important and is under way. I know that all Members will be interested in its outcome, and 12. Mr Graham Allen (Nottingham North) (Lab): in how we can help to publicise good guidance to What contribution his Department is making in women on this very important issue. support of the health objectives of the rebalancing project on dental checks for three-year-olds, foetal alcohol Children’s Mental Health Services syndrome and lung screening for people over 60. [905549] 13. Mr Russell Brown (Dumfries and Galloway) (Lab): What steps he is taking to improve access to and reduce The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health waiting times for children’s mental health services. (Jane Ellison): The hon. Gentleman and I have spoken a [905551] number of times about his valuable project. He knows that I am very interested in it and its outcomes. The The Minister of State, Department of Health (Norman Government are committed to improving oral health, Lamb): The taskforce on child and adolescent mental with a particular focus on children, to reducing the health is considering ways to improve access to children’s incidence of foetal alcohol syndrome and to improving mental health services. The plan that we published outcomes for all cancers. Results of major trials on lung earlier this month, “Achieving Better Access to Mental cancer screening, including our own £2.4 million UK Health Services by 2020” sets out the ambition to trial, are due in 2015. At that point, the UK national extend waiting time standards across all mental health screening committee will review all the available evidence, services by 2020. We are investing £7 million this year in looking towards a pilot. providing an additional 50 beds.

Mr Allen: The rebalancing project, which covers my Mr Brown: More and more children are being treated constituency, is I hope an innovative way of working on adult psychiatric wards, with many having to travel that does not require additional money from the hundreds of miles across the country for treatment, as Government, but focuses on key health inequalities, has been said today. The chief executive of YoungMinds such as a dental check for every three-year-old, the has said that the increase in the number of children foetal alcohol syndrome prevalence study that we are being placed in adult wards was predictable, following trying to do and lung cancer screening for everyone the cuts to mental health services. Why did the Minister over 60. Will the hon. Lady keep an eye on this work, not see it coming and do something sooner? use her reputation as a very committed Minister and visit us in Nottingham to see whether the work we are Norman Lamb: We did see a problem emerging. That doing can be spread elsewhere in the UK? is why NHS England set up a taskforce to look at that precise problem. Its recommendation earlier this year Jane Ellison: All the issues that the hon. Gentleman was to add 50 beds, and that is what we are doing. The outlines are extremely important. We, too, are very indication from October is that there is a significant interested in the prevalence study on foetal alcohol increase in spare bed capacity within the system, so the syndrome. He may be aware that the World Health problem is being addressed. 753 Oral Answers21 OCTOBER 2014 Oral Answers 754

Stephen Barclay (North East Cambridgeshire) (Con): ahead with the OECD comparison report into the I welcome the additional £7 million of investment. health systems in Wales and England, on which the Given that 65% of children in Fenland wait more than Welsh Assembly Government are disgracefully trying to 18 weeks for access to mental health services, will the obfuscate and cause delay because they are afraid of Minister write to me to set out how the additional what might be discovered? investment will help rural communities in particular? Mr Hunt: I am afraid that that says it all. Opposition Norman Lamb: I would be very happy to write to the Front Benchers tell us continually that they are not hon. Gentleman. I am sure that he welcomes the fact prepared to condemn what is happening in Wales and that, for the first time, we are introducing access and that the health service in Wales is performing well, yet waiting time standards in mental health, including in here is an opportunity to prove it—an independent children’s mental health. Until now, there has been study by the OECD of the four NHS systems in the discrimination at the heart of the NHS. Labour introduced UK—and Labour is trying to block it. This issue matters, waiting time and access standards, but it left out mental because the policies in Wales are what Labour wants to health. That was completely unjustifiable and I am do in England. proud that the coalition is correcting it. Seema Malhotra (Feltham and Heston) (Lab/Co-op): Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC): Will the Secretary of The cost of living crisis has had a huge impact on State concede that for many decades people from north children’s well-being across Britain as families struggle. Wales have had to travel to England for treatment? In That issue has been raised with me by support workers that respect, both Government and Opposition Front in my constituency who have seen young people come Benchers are culpable. forward with depression. That is compounded by the lack of mental health support services. Does the Minister Mr Hunt: The Government are happy for people to recognise those issues? Is he happy with the data that he travel anywhere in the United Kingdom. My concern has available on the prevalence of young people’s mental about health services in England is the pressure created, health problems? because for every patient that goes from England to Wales, five want to come from Wales to England. Norman Lamb: I absolutely recognise the problem. I have commissioned an up-to-date prevalence survey so 17. [905555] Sir Oliver Heald (North East Hertfordshire) that we have evidence that can help services around the (Con): My right hon. Friend will be aware that his new country. If the hon. Lady wants to talk with me further website, My NHS, is providing much more openness about the problems in her area, I would be happy to and transparency for patients from England. To what do so. extent does the extra information and ability to improve standards in hospitals as a result also apply Tim Farron (Westmorland and Lonsdale) (LD): A to Wales? local report on mental health and emotional resilience among young people in South Lakeland found that the Mr Hunt: This is the big lesson that we have learned stigma surrounding mental health and the lack of sufficient after the tragedy of Mid Staffs. The Francis report said resources over time mean that distressed and panic-stricken that the NHS had become over-dependent on a targets families often do not know how to begin to access the culture that was damaging for patients, and the Government support that their children desperately need. How can think that the way to improve standards is through my right hon. Friend help us get swift, clear and obvious transparency, openness, and the pressure of peer review. access to mental health care for young people? We have embraced that lesson wholeheartedly, and it is such a shame that the Welsh Labour Government have Norman Lamb: I welcome the study that has been taken a different tack. undertaken in my hon. Friend’s area. The brilliant “time to change” campaign has done an awful lot to Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab): Has the Secretary of tackle stigma in mental health. We confirmed recently State seen today’s Western Mail? If he has, he will know that the funding for that will continue in 2015-16. I that the Western Mail, which is not a Labour supporting accept that we need to do much more to improve access paper, totally condemns the scaremongering of the to children’s mental health services. Conservative party. Cross-border Treatment (England/Wales) Mr Hunt: When I started speaking out about poor 14. David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con): How care in England—one of the first things I did in this many patients resident in England have written to him job—those on the Labour Front Bench said that I was to request that they be treated in Wales. [905552] running down the NHS. The result of my speaking out is that we are turning around failing hospitals and have The Secretary of State for Health (Mr Jeremy Hunt): 5,000 more nurses on our wards. The NHS in England Given the perilous state of the NHS in Labour-run is getting safer and better, and we want exactly the same Wales, my hon. Friend will not be surprised to know thing for Wales. that not a single English patient has written to me asking for funding to be treated in Wales. Nurse Training David T. C. Davies: My hon. Friend is correct. That will come as no surprise to anyone who has had dealings 15. Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab): with the NHS in Wales. In the light of that, will he How many training posts for nurses were commissioned assure us that he will do everything possible to push in England in each of the last three years. [905553] 755 Oral Answers21 OCTOBER 2014 Oral Answers 756

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health Topical Questions (Dr Daniel Poulter): Between 2010 and 2013, 52,528 new pre-registration nurse training places were filled, T1. [905563] Heidi Alexander (Lewisham East) (Lab): and this year Health Education England has made If he will make a statement on his departmental 19,206 new places available. responsibilities. Barbara Keeley: It is interesting that the Secretary of State cannot follow his own advice about not making The Secretary of State for Health (Mr Jeremy Hunt): operational matters in the NHS political footballs. Perhaps Last week, the Care Quality Commission published its we can try again. The number of nurse training places “State of Care” report. This affirmed that the pace and has been cut by 1,000 since 2010—a key issue given the scale of change to improve care in the NHS last year need of hospitals to reach safe staffing levels. The Royal has been unprecedented, but it also contained some College of Nursing has said that Labour’s plans for hard truths. It found that the variation in the quality of 20,000 more nurses are absolutely necessary. Does the health in adult social care was too wide, and that too Minister agree? many hospitals have not got to grips with the basics of safety. This Government want every NHS patient to have confidence that their care will be both safe and Dr Poulter: It is right that hospitals respond when compassionate. We have turned around six hospitals there are not enough staff working there, if that is put into special measures, and people saying that their affecting patient care. That is why under this Government care is safe and compassionate are at record highs. We 2,500 more nursing staff are working now than in 2010. are determined to change the culture of the NHS away That is progress to ensure that we are facing up to from secrecy towards transparency, and away from targets challenges in care where they exist at local hospitals. towards personal care where patients’ needs always come first. Margot James (Stourbridge) (Con): Russells Hall hospital in the borough of Dudley has appointed 56 new nurses from overseas since the Keogh review last year. Heidi Alexander: In August 2014, 10,616 patients had Will my hon. Friend join me in welcoming the graduate to wait longer than six weeks for a key cancer test. That trainee programme for nursing that Russells Hall has is five times the number of people who had to wait that put in place, which will provide for 100 trained nurses long in May 2010. If the Government do not support over future years? Labour’s commitment to a one-week cancer test guarantee, what action will they be taking to reduce waiting times? Dr Poulter: That sounds like a commendable programme. It is good to hear that my hon. Friend’s local trust, Mr Hunt: As I said earlier, we welcome the fact that where there was a shortage of nurses, is facing up to Labour is now interested in cancer policy. If we look at that and employing more nurses to ensure that patient the reason for those delays, which we are working hard care is as good as it can be. to address, it is because the number of cancer referrals— [Interruption.] Labour left this country with the worst Hospital Walk-in Centres cancer survival rate in western Europe; we are doing something about it. The reason for the delays is that the number of people being referred for cancer tests has 16. Mr Stephen Hepburn (Jarrow) (Lab): What recent gone up by 50% since 2010. We are treating record representations he has received on hospital walk-in numbers of people with cancer because we want to do centres. [905554] something about that survival rate. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health (Jane Ellison): Ministers have received 34 representations T2. [905564] Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): The Public regarding NHS walk-in centres. Health Minister is pursuing a long list of nanny state proposals that we might have better expected from the Mr Hepburn: The NHS walk-in centre in Jarrow sees Labour party, including plain packaging of tobacco, more than 27,000 people a year, yet the local management outlawing parents smoking in cars and having higher propose to close it to pay for the reorganisation that the taxes on alcohol. Will she give us a list of which Government have brought in. Will the Minister intervene policies, if any, she is pursuing that have a Conservative on this occasion, overrule the manager and back the flavour to them? local people? The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health Jane Ellison: I find the hon. Gentleman’s question (Jane Ellison): Following on from the Secretary of State’s slightly mystifying. Responsibility for walk-in centres previous answer, tobacco control is an integral part of was passed to local commissioners in 2007, and as I tackling cancer. I am delighted to let the House know understand, South Tyneside CCG is looking to improve that smoking prevalence among adults in England fell urgent care in the area and reduce reliance on A and E. to 18.4% in 2013. This is a record low, which means that It reckons that 33,000 people did not need treatment in the Government have hit their tobacco control plan 2012-13 in the local A and E, so I quite see why it would target for 2015 two years early. I am sure that even my want to review that. I urge the hon. Gentleman to hon. Friend would welcome that news. engage with the consultation, and to get involved with some of the excellent north-east public health projects Andy Burnham (Leigh) (Lab): At their conference, such as North East Better Health at Work, which is an the Tory party promised flat funding for the NHS in the award-winning scheme that would do a lot to relieve next Parliament, but experts say that the service is at pressure on services. breaking point now and that the funding promised is 757 Oral Answers21 OCTOBER 2014 Oral Answers 758 not enough. Now, the Secretary of State’s own side are Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab): We have a shortage of saying the same thing. The Chair of the Health Committee GPs in Halton. Constituents tell me it is more difficult said last night: to get an appointment, and in recent months, two GPs “The Chancellor is going to have to write a bigger cheque” have told me that there are major problems with GP services in Halton and the country as a whole. Despite or we will what the Secretary of State says about increased numbers “see reductions in services or waiting times increase” of GPs, that is not happening in Halton. What is he and doing to address the problem, particularly in areas of “go down the route of top-ups and charges”. great deprivation, such as Halton? Does the Secretary of State agree with her, and will he Mr Hunt: There is pressure throughout the NHS concede that a flat budget for the NHS in the next because there are nearly 1 million more over-65s than Parliament will not stop it tipping into a full-blown there were four years ago, which puts pressure on GPs, crisis? as it does on any department or hospital providing elective care. However, this is not just about getting an Mr Jeremy Hunt: I am afraid that the shadow Health appointment; it is also about ensuring that GPs have Secretary is misrepresenting what was said at the personal responsibility for the patients on their list and Conservative party conference. We promised not just to are accountable for the care of some of the most protect the NHS budget but to protect and continue vulnerable people. We have brought back named GPs to increase the NHS budget in real terms. I gently say to with personal responsibility for over-75s, and I hope the him that we have increased the NHS budget spend this hon. Gentleman welcomes our going further and bringing Parliament by double the amount that Labour promised it back for everyone. at its conference. We did that because on this side of the House we understand a simple truth: a strong NHS T4. [905567] Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con): needs a strong economy. Meningitis Now, based in my constituency, is a keen supporter of the Men B vaccination for infants. Given the Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation’s Andy Burnham: The House will have noticed that the recommendation that it start, will the Minister update Secretary of State did not answer my question. There is us on how the roll-out is progressing? a very simple reason why the Secretary of State cannot answer my question: his party has prioritised unfunded Jane Ellison: My hon. Friend is right to highlight this tax cuts for higher earners, leaving a large black hole in important issue. As he knows, the Department is negotiating the public finances. There will be nothing left for the with the manufacturer to purchase the vaccine at a NHS if the Tories are re-elected. We on the Labour cost-effective price, and he will understand that we need Benches, in contrast, have promised £2.5 billion over to ensure that NHS funds are used as effectively as and above what they are committed to. Does that not possible. We are keen to see a positive conclusion to the make the choice on the NHS now clear: under Labour, negotiations as soon as possible so that plans for the more money for the NHS; under the Tories, tax cuts for Men B immunisation programme can be finalised. some but an NHS crisis for all? Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab): Will the Secretary Mr Hunt: The right hon. Gentleman cannot have it of State explain why NHS England has entered into a both ways. The tax cuts the Government have prioritised contract with a company based in Kent to provide GP are for lower-paid people, many of whom work in the services, when my constituents have just seen a string of NHS. When we had a strike last week, he was criticising locum GPs at a higher cost to the NHS? the Government for not being more generous, but we have been generous—with the tax cuts he is now criticising. Mr Jeremy Hunt: Wherever we can avoid it, we do The NHS is facing the biggest financial squeeze in its not want to use locum GPs or nurses or agency doctors, history partly because of an ageing population but because they are much more expensive—our spend on partly because the last Labour Government forgot about that is far too high—but sometimes when there are the deficit. issues of patient safety we need a quick solution. That is what has happened in response to the Francis report: as T3. [905566] Caroline Dinenage (Gosport) (Con): In well as recruiting 5,000 additional nurses on a permanent my constituency, waiting times for GP appointments basis, we are using extra agency nurses. However, we remain long and practices are struggling to recruit hope to bring those numbers down. enough doctors. Will my right hon. Friend reassure me as to when the improvements he is making elsewhere in T5. [905568] Simon Wright (Norwich South) (LD): I the country will take effect in Gosport, and will he congratulate the Minister of State, Department of meet me to discuss the matter? Health, my right hon. Friend the Member for North Norfolk (Norman Lamb), who has responsibility for Mr Hunt: I would be delighted to discuss it with my care and support, on securing the introduction of NHS hon. Friend, who is right to focus on the role of GPs. If waiting times for mental health for the first time next we are to transform the NHS by the end of the next year. How will he ensure that the resulting treatment is Parliament, we need fundamentally to improve out-of- not only timely but evidence-based and effective? hospital care, and GPs are at the heart of that. We have recruited 1,000 more GPs during this Parliament, but The Minister of State, Department of Health (Norman we need many more, and that will definitely include her Lamb): Last week, Mike Richards told me how waiting-time constituency. standards had transformed cancer care, and I think the 759 Oral Answers21 OCTOBER 2014 Oral Answers 760 same can happen for mental health. It is outrageous and, in particular, the creation of the new independent that somebody with a suspected cancer gets seen by a chief inspector of hospitals, who is looking closely at all specialist within two weeks, but that if someone has a complaints. The health ombudsman has increased its first episode of psychosis, who knows what will happen caseload and we are also taking measures to display to them. That discrimination has to end, and we are information on how to complain in every hospital and delivering that. ward across the country.

Mr David Anderson (Blaydon) (Lab): The good people Mrs Sharon Hodgson (Washington and Sunderland who work in the NHS have faced six years of pay West) (Lab): Will the Secretary of State join me in restraint. How much longer must they carry the can for paying tribute to Eilish Hoole, who sadly passed away the failures of the people who got us into this mess—the in July from ovarian cancer. She was only 47 and the moneylenders, the LIBOR fixers, the people who mis-sold mother of five children and following her diagnosis of mortgages? How much longer must front-line staff pay late-stage ovarian cancer she campaigned tirelessly in for the mistakes of capitalism? Parliament with Target Ovarian Cancer, which led to the recent successful pilot of the awareness campaign in The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health the north-west. Will the Secretary of State commit to (Dr Daniel Poulter): Even in very difficult times this roll that out the rest of the country so that other women year, all NHS staff, either through their increments or in her position get to see their children grow up? through the 1% increase, will be getting a pay rise. Of course, we would like to do more, but the NHS finances Mr Jeremy Hunt: I am very happy to pay tribute to are under pressure, and our priority is to ensure that we Eilish Hoole, to the many cancer campaigners and to employ as many front-line staff as we can. We now have the many people who have survived cancer and put their more than 13,000 more front-line staff working in the lives back together again. There is still a huge job to do NHS than we did when we came into government. in getting earlier diagnosis. I think there is agreement across the House about the need for much earlier cancer T6. [905569] Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con): Can the diagnosis, particularly for ovarian cancer, which makes Secretary of State confirm to the House whether there a huge difference. I know that we would all like to pay are any plans to sell off the NHS and will the NHS tribute to her work. remain free at the point of delivery? Tim Farron (Westmorland and Lonsdale) (LD): NHS Mr Jeremy Hunt: I can confirm that there are no such England has identified south Cumbria as one of just plans and it will remain free at the point of delivery. three places in England where travel times to receive Nor do we have any plans to pay private providers 11% radiotherapy are unacceptably and debilitatingly long. more than NHS providers, as happened under the previous Will the Secretary of State meet me and NHS England Labour Government. to talk about how Kendal hospital can be the place for a new radiotherapy centre this autumn?

Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab): In response Jane Ellison: I would be happy to meet the hon. to my amendment to the Care Bill earlier this year Gentleman and discuss this important issue for his about the portability of care packages to the countries constituents. of the UK, the Minister of State, Department of Health, the right hon. Member for North Norfolk (Norman Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab): The NHS Lamb), promised that a voluntary framework would be Litigation Authority is piloting a new approach to in place by November. It is 10 days until November, so improve feedback and learning in response to allegations how is progress going? of negligence. Will the Secretary of State say how patients can find out what feedback the NHSLA has Norman Lamb: I thank the hon. Lady for that question. given to individual trusts and how the trusts have responded? We have drawn up a statement of principles, we have been discussing them with the devolved Administrations Dr Poulter: The hon. Lady raises an important issue, and we hope very much that we will be able to achieve which is that the NHS Litigation Authority often picks an agreed statement of principles in November. I cannot up on things when they do not go well and when the guarantee it, but that is absolutely our objective. communication between patients and trusts has broken down. That is one of the things that need to be put T7. [905570] Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) (Con): right. I will look into the matter and write to her, Healthwatch England recently released a report, because it is important that when things go wrong “Suffering in silence”, that found that almost two patients are supported in the right way and the lessons thirds of people felt that their complaint about the are learned. NHS was not taken seriously and half ended up not receiving an apology or even hearing the word sorry. T9. [905572] Annette Brooke (Mid Dorset and North What action is my hon. Friend taking to ensure that Poole) (LD): Currently, there are no psychiatric complaints are taken seriously in the NHS? intensive care unit beds for women in Dorset. One of my constituents was recently sent to a unit in Bradford. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health Will additional funding be available to address this (George Freeman): My hon. Friend makes an excellent appalling situation? point. Following the appalling systemic abuse and neglect described in the Francis report, our response, set out in Norman Lamb: I am very happy to meet my right “Hard Truths”, focused relentlessly on hearing the patient hon. Friend to discuss the concerns in her area. I heard voice, learning tough lessons on patient safety and care, similar concerns when I was in Devon last week and 761 Oral Answers21 OCTOBER 2014 Oral Answers 762 clearly the objective must be to have facilities close to I can provide the reassurance I have given before—that where people live, rather than their having to travel long the wide body of expertise and information out there distances. about mitochondrial disease is regularly reviewed over a long period of time. Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab): I assume that the Secretary of State has read the National Audit Office’s Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/ report on local funding for health care. In the 17 years Co-op): The Secretary of State makes great play of for which I have been Member of Parliament for Slough, protecting the NHS budget, but NHS England, the we have never reached our target for funding and now Nuffield Trust and his hon. Friend the Chair of the the gap between Slough’s target and our actual funding Health Committee all agree that it needs another £30 billion is greater than ever before. What is he going to do to investment, so how can he tell people that the NHS is ensure that areas get the funding they need to provide safe under his watch? the health care their residents require? Mr Jeremy Hunt: We have not just protected the Mr Jeremy Hunt: First, we have made the decision an NHS budget, but increased it in real terms, which I independent one, taken at arm’s length from Ministers, think is a huge achievement given the state of the to try to take the party politics out of it. Secondly, we economy we inherited. [Interruption.] I simply say to protected the NHS budget. Thirdly, one of the most the hon. Lady that the way to protect and secure NHS important and significant things for the hon. Lady’s funding for the future is by making sure that there is a constituents has been the way in which the Heatherwood strong economy to pay for it. That is the single most and Wexham Park NHS Trust has been turned round important thing of all. from failing and being in special measures to being taken over and run by Frimley Park NHS Trust—the most successful trust in the country. Sir Nick Harvey (North Devon) (LD) rose—

Several hon. Members rose— Mr Speaker: Last but not least we shall hear from a Devon knight. Mr Speaker: Order. We have overrun, principally because of long questions and answers earlier, but I am Sir Nick Harvey: Thank you, Mr Speaker. keen to accommodate a couple more colleagues. Devon clinical commissioning group is embarking on Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con): Mitochondrial technique a major programme of change next year, closing community was last tried on humans in 2003 by John Zhang, hospital beds and replacing them with services at home. resulting, I understand, in two still births and an abortion. Do Ministers see that public and staff would have more Last week, one of the members of an expert panel of confidence in the new services if they were being worked the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority up first before getting rid of the existing services? Could said he had only just become aware of Zhang’s study. the better care fund put money into the transition? What action will Ministers take to ensure that this worrying study is properly examined before any steps Norman Lamb: I thank my hon. Friend for that are taken to bring this issue before the House? question. The better care fund is the biggest ever transfer of resources to preventive care and for integrated care. I Jane Ellison: My hon. Friend takes a great interest in saw last week in my hon. Friend’s own county fantastic this matter and led the Back-Bench business debate on integrated care in Torbay and Southern Devon NHS 1 September. I will certainly ask the HFEA and the Trust, but I would be happy to discuss his particular expert panel to look at the study to which she refers, but concerns as soon as possible. 763 21 OCTOBER 2014 764

Point of Order Sex and Relationships Education (Curriculum) 12.37 pm Motion for leave to bring in a Bill (Standing Order Sir Oliver Heald (North East Hertfordshire) (Con): No. 23) On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I seek your guidance. Last Friday, at column 591 in Hansard, I intervened on 12.39 pm the shadow Foreign Secretary to ask him to confirm that the German Government’s coalition agreement Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab): I makes specific reference to EU treaty change. He denied beg to move, this, and said that there was not a single reference in That leave be given to bring in a Bill to require the Secretary of that document to it. However, at page 111, the document State to make provision to include education about sex and says: relationships, resilience against bullying and sexual abuse and “Wir werden die vertraglichen Grundlagen der Wirtschaft und ending violence against women and girls in the national curriculum; Wahrungsunion anpassen”, and for connected purposes. which means, “We will adapt the Treaty bases of the I am very pleased to have the opportunity to present Economic and Monetary Union.”Should not the shadow this Bill. I do so in view of the many disturbing cases of Foreign Secretary, as a senior Privy Counsellor, come to child abuse and exploitation that have come to light the House and correct the record? He got it wrong; I got around the country recently. They include abuse in it right. Derby, Telford, Peterborough and Rotherham and in north Wales care homes, and high-profile cases such Mr Speaker: I am immensely grateful to the hon. and as those of Jimmy Savile and Rolf Harris. There is also learned Gentleman, but whether his German accent an ever-growing online threat. There are more opportunities would command the approval of the hon. Member for for those who wish to harm our children to have unfettered Birmingham, Edgbaston (Ms Stuart), I leave open to online access to them. Tens of thousands of people are speculation and conjecture. I am sure that the hon. and known to access child abuse images online, and I believe learned Gentleman has done himself and those who that we have reached a point at which we must think think like him on this matter a service. I am asked afresh about what more can be done to keep our children whether the shadow Foreign Secretary should come to and young people as safe as possible from child sexual the House in these circumstances, I think my response—I exploitation and abuse. One part of that will be ensuring am well advised on these matters—is that there is no that all children have access to effective, high-quality, need for that to happen. It is a matter of judgment for evidence-based relationship and sex education in all the individual Member concerned. In any case, the hon. schools. and learned Gentleman has put his point very firmly, I recently read Professor Jay’s report on the child very clearly and, I hope, intelligently on the record. exploitation scandal in Rotherham. Like all Members, I [Interruption.] It is true that there was a quotation in was shocked at what had happened to so many young German, but I was exercising a generosity of spirit that people in the town, although we know that that was not I thought was appropriate. [Interruption.] I think we an isolated incident. There are cases throughout the probably need to improve the tone somewhat. country of children being groomed and abused in towns and cities from Rochdale to Oxford. One particular instance in Professor Jay’s report caught my eye. BILL PRESENTED Paragraph 8.13 states: “The young people we met in the course of the Inquiry were GENERAL PRACTITIONER SURGERIES scathing about the sex education they received at school. They (RURAL AREAS)BILL complained that it only focused on contraception…They thought Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57) the sex education was out of touch and needed to be updated.” Tim Farron presented a Bill to require provision of What also caught my eye was that, according to the General Practitioner surgeries in certain rural areas; report, those young people had said that when a local and for connected purposes. organisation called Risky Business had arranged Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on awareness-raising about child sexual exploitation, they Friday 9 January 2015, and to be printed (Bill 105) had thought that it was very good, particularly when a survivor had spoken to them about their experience. A clear recommendation in a recent report by the Children’s Commissioner on a national approach to safeguarding and protecting children was that, as part of the national strategy to tackle abuse, we need relationship education which explains what healthy relationships look like—answering questions such as “What is sexual exploitation?”and covering issues of consent and domestic abuse—and which is delivered in all schools by people with specialist expertise and knowledge. Jane Lees, chair of the Sex Education Forum, has said: “The details of the Harris and Savile cases have been shocking, in particular, the long periods of time during which victims suffered in silence and the wide range of ages of children and adults that were abused. The widespread publicity and information 765 Sex and Relationships Education 21 OCTOBER 2014 Sex and Relationships Education 766 (Curriculum) (Curriculum) [Diana Johnson] At Hull’s recent Freedom festival in September, I came across a grooming prevention initiative that was around the cases helpfully resulted in further victims coming being run by the Hull domestic abuse partnership team forward. But we need to ensure that there is a better understanding and the Soroptimists. It highlighted for young people of abuse so that children and young people are kept safe. It is for the behaviours involved in acceptable and unacceptable this reason we need a long lasting approach based on a guarantee relationships. It had cards with questions such as “If he that all schools teach children good quality SRE which includes learning to recognise and be able to talk about inappropriate really loves you, how does he treat you?” and answers sexual contact by others. Learning about what is and isn’t abusive “He respects and trusts you for what you are”; He is behaviour is essential to help keep children safe from harm. We kind and makes you feel comfortable”; “He listens to must respond to these cases by creating a legacy of guaranteed you and tells you the truth”. Similarly, it asked what an education for all children.” abusive relationship might look like. The answers included “He frightens me”, “He gets violent”, “He bullies me”, For many years I have been convinced of the need to “He teases me in public” and “He always blames me”. reform and overhaul the sex education that we provide That is the type of work that needs to be done in all for our young people, and to focus more widely on schools and taught to all children and young people. relationships and emotions. It is clear that the sex education that currently exists in schools is inadequate, The time has now come for the Government to act. just as the children in Rotherham said. It focuses on They have been woeful in looking at new ways of biology and what fits where, on sexual diseases, and on ensuring that we keep our children safe in the light of how not to get pregnant. We know that young people what has happened in recent times. The previous Education are often very savvy about the mechanics of sex, but Secretary agreed to make financial education part of lack any understanding of the potential dangers and the national curriculum as he was concerned about threats that they face. students’ financial literacy. We now need to be concerned about keeping our children safe, and that means that we Ofsted has stated in recent reports that SRE requires need compulsory relationship and sex education in all improvements in nearly 50% of secondary schools. Students our schools. We want to build up our children’s self-esteem felt that there was too little teaching about relationships and confidence so that they are clear about what good and too much emphasis on the mechanics of reproduction, healthy relationships look like and what is acceptable, and that lessons in personal, social, health and economic and so that they know who to go to, and when, if they education had avoided discussions of sexual and emotional are concerned about unwanted or unacceptable behaviour feelings and controversial issues such as abuse, towards them. homosexuality and pornography. Other recent evidence Protecting children is everyone’s business, and schools from Ofsted shows that, in some instances, SRE was and education have a vital part to play. This is about limited to as little as two hours taught in the last year of reinforcing good parenting, not replacing it. However, primary school. Ofsted also found that younger pupils leaving it all to parents, which is the current approach did not always learn the correct names for the sexual and the approach of decades past, is not working. That parts of their bodies. This can leave children muddled approach is failing, and it is not fit to deal with the about their bodies and hampered by a lack of language challenges of the future. In our free, open digital technology to report sexual abuse. Plus, when the Sex Education society, we cannot protect youngsters totally from every Forum surveyed more than 800 young people, it found conceivable danger or from the increasing opportunities that one in three either did not know or were unsure available to potential abusers. However, a modern education about where to get help if they were sexually assaulted. can equip young people with skills that can tilt the odds in their favour and firmly against those seeking to harm Now is the time to create a broad alliance of support or exploit them. Why would we not want to give them for statutory sex and relationship education. A Mumsnet those skills? Why would we not introduce compulsory survey found that 92% parents wanted SRE to be relationship and sex education to keep all our children compulsory at secondary school and that 69% wanted it as safe as possible? to be compulsory at primary school, while 82% wanted it specifically to address sexual violence and bullying. 12.49 pm Of course we want parents and families to be part of Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): I rise to oppose the Bill the discussions with youngsters about relationships and of the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North keeping safe, but we cannot stand back and hope that (Diana Johnson), but I should begin by congratulating all families will have those conversations when we know her on the impressive doughnut she managed to arrange that it is often the most vulnerable children who do not for herself, masking the fact that the people around the have family support in this area. If we equip all our doughnut were the only Members on her side actually children with the tools to help them to keep safe, we will in the Chamber at the time. I give her full marks for her know that they have been taught how to identify abusive doughnut, which was better than her speech. behaviour and the tactics of perpetrators and groomers, and that they will have learned what sexual consent When a politician is faced with a problem—this is not actually means and what a loving and respectful relationship necessarily a party political point—their solution always looks like. incorporates two ingredients. The first ingredient is that they have got to be seen to be doing something. I long We also know that there is huge support out there for the day when a Minister stands up at the Dispatch from charities and voluntary organisations. End Violence Box and says, “Actually, that’s got nothing to do with Against Women, the teaching unions, Brook, the Family the Government; that is for people to sort out for Planning Association, the National Society for the themselves.” They never do, however; politicians always Prevention of Cruelty to Children, the Terence Higgins want to highlight how important and powerful they are. Trust and many others are all calling for statutory SRE. The second ingredient in their solution is that what they 767 Sex and Relationships Education 21 OCTOBER 2014 Sex and Relationships Education 768 (Curriculum) (Curriculum) propose does not really offend anybody. As long as they Italy. Italy has equally low levels of teenage pregnancies can come up with something that looks as if they are and unwanted pregnancies, but has very little sex education. doing something and does not really offend anybody, A few years ago I looked at what Holland and Italy had that will be the solution they will go for, even if it will in common, because then we might find out the true not make a blind bit of difference to the problem. solution. What they have in common—and have had in [Interruption.] The hon. Lady’s speech today was a common for many years—is that they have much closer prime example of a politician who wants to be seen to family units, where families are much more likely to do be doing something with a proposal that does not really things such as eat meals together. They have also historically offend anybody, and which will make absolutely no been spectacularly ungenerous to single mothers in the difference at all to the problem she has rightly highlighted. benefits system and the housing allocation system. If [Interruption.] we want to tackle issues such as teenage pregnancies The hon. Lady talks about the importance of dealing— and unwanted pregnancies, it would be much better to [Interruption.] I know that Opposition Members are so look at the benefit systems and the housing allocation intolerant of other people’s opinions that they do not system. That would make much more of a difference like to listen to them— than this ridiculous obsession with more and more sex education. Mr Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman was, I think, As sex education has failed, people like the hon. being heard, because he rarely has any difficulty in Member for Kingston upon Hull North have said, making himself heard, but the hon. Gentleman must be “Actually, what we need is more sex education.” As we heard. have had more sex education, however, the problem has got worse, as she has highlighted. She then changes tack Philip Davies: Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. and says, “Actually, what we need is better sex education.” When the hon. Lady talks about the problems of Actually, one day everybody will have to conclude that child abuse, everybody agrees; of course we all agree what we need is less sex education, or even better, none. that there is a massive problem with child abuse and it The hon. Lady spectacularly failed to mention the needs to be tackled. She highlighted the problems we role of parents. The message we should be giving to found in Rotherham, but I am not sure most of my parents is this: “Being a parent is a very responsible constituents would think the answer to that is to make business. You should not enter into it lightly and there sex education compulsory. Actually, I think what most are things that only parents can do and are expected to people identified as the problem was the culture of do, because the state cannot fulfil the role of a parent political correctness that Labour councils up and down for you.” We have got ourselves into a problem by the country were cultivating, which prevented good saying, “If you’re a parent, don’t worry about what you people from speaking out about the disgusting things do. Don’t worry about whether you’re doing a good job, that were happening. If the hon. Lady had introduced because if you don’t do a good job of it—if you don’t an anti-political correctness Bill in Labour local authorities, care about it—the state will pick up the pieces for you.” it might have actually made some real difference. Trying That is an appalling message to send out to people. We to pretend that the solution to this problem is compulsory should be saying, “This is a serious business and an sex education is completely ludicrous. important matter and there are certain things that are We have been having sex education in our schools for your responsibility alone, and the state cannot take more than 40 years, and it was supposedly going to those functions away.” solve things such as teenage pregnancies and unwanted Some parents may well be bad at teaching sex education, pregnancies. Most of my constituents would probably but who is to say that all teachers are good at teaching conclude that the more sex education we have had since sex education? It may well be that many teachers are not the early 1970s, the more teenage pregnancies and unwanted very good at teaching sex education and that the parent pregnancies we have had. [Interruption.] Perhaps somebody would have been the best person to teach it to the child. might look at the evidence—[Interruption.] I know We should not forget that point. Opposition Members do not want to hear this, but they My job as a parent is to bring up my children with my might want to look at the evidence and then they might values and the values I think are important to instil in think that perhaps we should try less sex education in them. I do not want my children to have the teacher’s schools—or perhaps, even better, no sex education at values instilled in them, whether or not I like or support all. That might be a better tactic. [Interruption.] them. These are things that should be done by parents I will point out—[Interruption.] and parents alone. Teachers should be there to teach children about things parents are not capable of teaching, Mr Speaker: Order. Fiona Mactaggart, you are an not about the things that parents should be teaching if excessively excitable individual on occasion. Calm yourself they were doing their job properly. and seek to behave with restraint, and as the aspiring If we want to tackle the problem of child abuse—which stateswoman you should want to be. we all want to do in this House—let us look at the root causes: the political correctness of the Labour party Philip Davies: Thank you, Mr Speaker. The Labour that caused the problems in Rotherham. Let us not go party is known for its intolerance of other people’s down the route of this nanny state version of a Bill opinions. I am just pleased Labour Members are which is a complete waste of time and will make absolutely highlighting that so effectively today. no difference at all, but fulfils the role I mentioned at The sex education fanatics always point to Holland, the start, of a politician who wants to look as if they are because in Holland they have lots of sex education at a doing something proposing something that does not very young age and they have very low levels of teenage really offend anybody. It offends me, and it offends pregnancy, but the sex education fanatics never mention people out in the country. 769 Sex and Relationships Education 21 OCTOBER 2014 770 (Curriculum) [Philip Davies] Recall of MPs Bill [Relevant documents: First Report from the Political and I will not delay the House by calling for a Division, as Constitutional Reform Committee, Session 2012-13, Recall there is an important debate coming up and I would not of MPs, HC 373, and the Government responses, HC 646 want to highlight how silly some of the Labour Members and Cm 8640.] are in the Lobby. So we will just leave it at that, but I hope this Bill goes absolutely nowhere. Question put and agreed to. 12.58 pm Ordered, The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Greg Clark): I That Diana Johnson, Simon Danczuk, Sarah Champion, beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time. Kevin Barron, John Healey, Mrs Sharon Hodgson, Lyn The Recall of MPs Bill fulfils a commitment made by Brown, Barbara Keeley, Roberta Blackman-Woods, the three main parties in their 2010 manifestos and in Andrew Gwynne and Wayne David present the Bill. the coalition’s programme for government to establish a Diana Johnson accordingly presented the Bill. recall mechanism for MPs who have been found guilty of wrongdoing or misconduct. Allow me to quote from Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on my own party’s manifesto: Friday 21 November, and to be printed (Bill 101). “at the moment, there is no way that local constituents can remove an MP found guilty of serious wrongdoing until there is a general election. That is why a Conservative government will introduce a power of ‘recall’ to allow electors to kick out MPs, a power that will be triggered by proven serious wrongdoing.” That is the manifesto on which I stood at the last election and the one that I stand by today. The Bill fulfils the commitment that we made in 2010, and, to put it candidly, seeks to reconcile differences within this legislature. Although we are agreed on the principle that MPs must be held to account when they have done something wrong, delivering on the practical detail of a recall mechanism has been more difficult. There is a wide range of views on how and whether it should be done. Members will concede that we have not rushed into this reform. The Government opened the debate on recall when they published their White Paper and draft Recall of MPs Bill in 2011. I am grateful to the Political and Constitutional Reform Committee for its work. Its Chairman was in his place—I dare say he will be back.

Mr Frank Field (Birkenhead) (Lab): He has been recalled!

Greg Clark: I suspect that the hon. Member for Nottingham North (Mr Allen) would be robust in the face of such measures. The Committee has done considerable and painstaking work in conducting pre- legislative scrutiny of these proposals. It made some valuable recommendations, particularly on the recall petition process, most of which the Government have accepted and incorporated into the Bill. As Members who follow this debate know, the Committee also concluded that there was no need for a recall system as it did not see a gap in the disciplinary arrangements for MPs. That view is shared by some Members, but not by the Government.

Mr Andrew Robathan (South Leicestershire) (Con): My right hon. Friend may know that I have recalled myself and that I am not standing again at the next general election, but I am struggling after 22 years in this House to understand the point of this Bill. I have seen people who have done wrong and have gone—quite rightly. Of the people caught up in the expenses scandal, several, quite rightly, have gone to prison. Denis MacShane went to prison and Patrick Mercer resigned his seat—quite rightly. But I can only think of two people who might have been affected by this Bill, and unless we make the 771 Recall of MPs Bill21 OCTOBER 2014 Recall of MPs Bill 772 powers retrospective to 2002, I do not see that it will that triggers an objective finding of bad behaviour—be affect the hon. Gentleman who sits on the Labour it by conviction or by some other form of sanction? Benches whom I will not name because I have not Without that, there is a risk that campaigning MPs who mentioned it to him. Possibly, it might have affected one take up unpopular causes could be subject to victimisation Member who was recently expelled from the Liberal by various pressure groups. Democrat party, but actually he has not committed a criminal offence as far as we know. So what exactly is Greg Clark: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his the question that this Bill answers? point. He is taking up a popular cause, but there are occasions when Members should and will take up Greg Clark: First, let me say that we will miss my unpopular causes. It would be infinitely regrettable if right hon. Friend in this House, and we are sorry that he they were to lose their seat in this House by a campaign has recalled himself. As he knows, MPs are disqualified that sought to silence them. from attending the House if they are sentenced to imprisonment for more than a year, but not below that. Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab) rose— That is a gap, and this Bill puts forward a means of closing it. The other thing that this Bill does is enable Greg Clark: Let me make a bit of progress. The the House to put before the electorate the question of diametrically opposed view is that a recall system should whether an MP, who has been severely sanctioned by be implemented to allow the recall of MPs on any the Standards and Privileges Committee and suspended grounds and at any time, including disagreements with for more than 21 days, should continue in post. There an MP’s stance on a matter of policy. My hon. Friend are cases of Members who have been sentenced to the Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Robert Neill) terms of imprisonment for less than a year to whom makes the counter argument, but my hon. Friend the this Bill would directly apply. Member for Richmond Park (Zac Goldsmith) takes the Mr Charles Walker (Broxbourne) (Con): My right view that a policy disagreement between an MP and his hon. Friend has said that there are people who have or her constituents is such a ground. That is not the been sentenced to prison to whom this Bill would position of the Government, or the commitment that directly apply. Who are those people? was made in the party manifestos. Greg Clark: Clearly, this Bill would not apply Mr David Heath (Somerton and Frome) (LD): The retrospectively, but the two people who would have right hon. Gentleman is explaining quite clearly the been caught are Chris Huhne and Eric Illsley. difference between what is misconduct and bad behaviour, which would get someone sacked from any other job in Mr Robathan: They have gone. any other circumstances, and what is simply a disagreement over policy, where it would be possible for people to use Greg Clark: My right hon. Friend makes a reasonable a large amount of money effectively to remove an MP. point that those Members chose to resign. The fact that But does he understand the concern that many members it was their choice rather than there being an element of of the public have that the trigger for this at the moment compulsion is the loophole that this Bill seeks to close. is in a group of MPs in the form of the Standards and Privileges Committee? Does he understand that perhaps Mr Frank Field: Is the issue not somewhat different? there needs to be an alternative mechanism that goes It is about not how we feel, but how our constituents directly to the point of petition? feel. We might be puzzled when people question our behaviour, but we are no longer in the world in which Greg Clark: I do understand both points that my we can behave as we wish and for our constituents to hon. Friend makes. The question of a trigger is something push off. Our constituents will start defining what they that we will be debating both today and in Committee. think is acceptable behaviour by us. The key thing that Members who have served on Bill Committees with me we must ensure in this Bill, which I welcome, is that the will know that I have always taken a view that when threshold is such so that pernicious lobbies, such as the experienced Members of Parliament debate a subject of gun lobby in America if it were operating here, could great importance and interest—where the matters divide not take Members out just because they disagree with on party political lines—it is right and appropriate that their views. the Government should reflect on the proposals, or Greg Clark: My right hon. Friend the Member for amendments, put forward. I will confirm that we will do South Leicestershire (Mr Robathan) and the right hon. that and that we will take very seriously the views of the Gentleman make my case for me: there is not agreement House. across the House. I merely observe that this Bill was a commitment that we made in the manifesto on which Mr Winnick: Wrongdoing is always to be condemned. we fought the last election, and that is true for the three Is it not the case that MPs such as Sydney Silverman, main parties. It is reasonable to reflect that there is an who urged the abolition of capital punishment and who expectation on parties that stood on such a commitment won the day after a long and hard campaign, and those that they will bring forward such a Bill. who fought for the reform of homosexuality laws and for abortion and many other very unpopular issues, Robert Neill (Bromley and Chislehurst) (Con): My would have been in danger if this legislation had been in right hon. Friend is making a good case, and I shall force? certainly be supporting him. As the right hon. Member for Birkenhead (Mr Field) said, is not the key issue that Greg Clark: The drafting of the Bill reflects that if we are to have a greater degree of openness towards undesirable risk that matters of conscience could our constituents, there must none the less be something result in the loss of a seat. A general election inevitably 773 Recall of MPs Bill21 OCTOBER 2014 Recall of MPs Bill 774

[Greg Clark] fears, which I share, that an MP’s position could be severely destabilised. I recommend caution and that we follows the MP’s selection. We all make policy arguments leave things as they are. to our electorate each time, and the ability to do that is still in place. Greg Clark: I hope that hon. Members on both sides of the House will concede that we are proceeding with Mr Stewart Jackson (Peterborough) (Con): Several caution. We recognise that this is a novel constitutional of us have serious worries about undermining not just step, and our traditions are that we exercise caution in the sovereignty of Parliament, but the sanctity of the such circumstances. The Prime Minister made it clear general election. My right hon. Friend will know that during last week’s Question Time that we regard the Edmund Burke said in the 18th century that he was a provisions as a minimum, and the various arguments representative, not a delegate. It is noteworthy that he that have been deployed today can be properly considered was removed by the electors of Bristol in a general in Committee and on Report. Of course, whatever the election shortly thereafter. House and the other place decide, it will be open to future Parliaments—one will begin next year—to consider whether to take things further still. That is the spirit in Greg Clark: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Many which we are proceeding. hon. Members will be familiar with what Edmund Burke said: Mr Charles Walker: I would take the Government’s “Your representative owes you, not his industry only, but his position more seriously if, at the start of this Parliament judgment; and he betrays instead of serving you if he sacrifices it in 2010, they had not made it almost impossible for this to your opinion.” House to recall a Government. He made that point very strongly and was promptly thrown out by the electorate at the next election, which Greg Clark: My hon. Friend takes us on to an area illustrates the point arising from the intervention made that could detain us for the rest of the day. He and I by the hon. Member for Walsall North (Mr Winnick). would prefer to be implementing all the Conservative Our early exchanges have made it clear that the party’s manifesto commitments, but the electorate did opposing poles—I hesitate to call them extremes—in not give us a majority, so we formed a coalition, which I the debate have good intentions, and reasonable and think has made great achievements, not least by turning serious points are being made. In developing the proposals, around the economy through its effective, long-term the Government have tried to steer a sensible and economic plan. reasonable course. We believe that recall has a role in Let me set out the provisions that will govern the dealing with serious wrongdoing. If an MP has been debate not just today, but in Committee and on Report. found guilty of serious wrongdoing and clear lines have There are two conditions under which a recall petition been crossed, the public must have their say about would be opened. The first trigger is if a Member of whether that Member should remain in office. Parliament is convicted in the United Kingdom of an We have stopped short of enabling recall on any offence for which they receive a custodial sentence of grounds so that we preserve the freedom of Members of 12 months or less. At present, any MP who is imprisoned Parliament to vote with their conscience and to take for more than a year is automatically disqualified from difficult decisions without facing constant challenges, at Parliament, but if they receive a sentence of 12 months the public’s expense, from their political opponents. We or less, they can keep their job until the next general have, of course, considered a range of recall models, election. The Bill will close that loophole. including those used internationally, but there is no The imprisonment of a Member of Parliament will, direct equivalent in a constitutional system such as ours quite understandably, cause many constituents to question anywhere in the world, so we are breaking new ground, their faith in that MP. Incarceration not only indicates and it is the tradition of the House and the country that serious wrongdoing, but prevents that Member from we proceed with care when making constitutional change. doing their job effectively, so the Government believe that constituents should be able to decide whether there Mr Frank Roy (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab): I should be a by-election in such circumstances. Of course, support the Bill, but I am sure that the Minister realises it would remain open for the recalled Member of Parliament that it has serious flaws. For example, why would it not to stand as a candidate in that by-election, should they cover the MPs who took cash for questions in the wish to justify the actions that led to that sentence of 1990s? imprisonment. Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con): I Greg Clark: Clearly, like most legislation, the Bill will broadly support the Bill, but with regard to that point, not apply retrospectively, but if the Standards Committee is it strictly necessary? It is open to the House—this has was to recommend that an MP be suspended for 21 or been done in the past—to expel a Member who has more sitting days due to precisely such a breach of the been sentenced to prison. Is it not the failure to use our code, that Member would be liable for recall. existing powers, rather than a need to create new powers, that is at issue? Richard Drax (South Dorset) (Con): I have been here long enough to know that Bills are all too often a huge Greg Clark: My hon. Friend, who is learned and sledgehammer to crack a nut. If the Bill goes through, I reflective on these matters, is right that the power to fear that it will be added to in time, as I know that many expel a Member exists. However, constituents do not MPs and members of the public want to take things a have the power to decide whether a seat should be lot further. That is why many Members are voicing their vacated, but that would be available under the Bill. 775 Recall of MPs Bill21 OCTOBER 2014 Recall of MPs Bill 776

Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) done something seriously wrong, and constituents (PC): What discussions has the Minister had with the should be able to have their say about whether their devolved Governments about using the Bill to empower MP deserves to keep his or her seat. the devolved institutions, if they so wish, to introduce their own recall mechanism? Frank Dobson (Holborn and St Pancras) (Lab): With the right hon. Gentleman give way? Greg Clark: I think I have made it clear that the Bill is not the last word on recall. It will apply specifically to Members of Parliament and it will govern simply the Greg Clark: I will make some progress before giving procedures of the House. It has been difficult enough to way again. establish a consensus in this House, let alone in the Comparisons with the second trigger provisions devolved Administrations and beyond. However, as we published in the draft Bill will reveal changes that have heard from my hon. Friend the Member for South arisen from fruitful discussions with the Standards Dorset (Richard Drax), it will be open to future Parliaments Committee and others. The Bill’s proposals are to take a different view. designed to work alongside the existing arrangements and processes for investigating misconduct, and the Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind): The Minister will changes that have been made ensure that recall be well aware that five Sinn Fein Members do not take petitions open automatically as a consequence of a their seats in the House. Will he make it absolutely clear substantial period of suspension. The Bill does not to those absentee Northern Ireland MPs—and to the specify on what grounds the Committee, or indeed the House and the general public—that the Bill will apply House as a whole, would consider a suspension of that equally to them? length to be appropriate, but I look forward to hearing the views of Members on both sides of the House, both Greg Clark: The hon. Lady makes an important today and in Committee, on the length of suspension point in the context of Northern Ireland. My understanding proposed and on the operation of the second trigger is that the Bill would not apply to those Members more generally. because they have not taken the Oath to sit in the Some will say that the Bill still gives MPs too great a House, but she will no doubt wish to raise that point in role in triggering recall, but we want to ensure that it Committee. complements the disciplinary procedures that already exist and the work of the independent commissioner Mr David Davis (Haltemprice and Howden) (Con): I and the Standards Committee. It is a long-standing favour a recall Bill and understand that my right hon. principle of our political system that Parliament has Friend has found it difficult to get an agreement, but sole jurisdiction over its own affairs and is free to might we at least have some logic in this process? Under operate without interference from the courts, the Crown the mechanism set out in the Bill, a Member of Parliament or any other individual or body.The Standards Committee who was arrested at a demonstration and imprisoned is currently undertaking a review to look at ways of would be forced to take part in a new election if 10% of improving its disciplinary procedure and so has an his constituents disapproved of his position. opportunity to consider these important matters. In other words, the decisions that that Committee will Greg Clark: My right hon. Friend clearly exposes one take, given the way that the Bill interfaces with its of the aspects of our debate. The decision would be in sanctions, allow whatever the Committee in this House the hands of that Member’s constituents in two respects: decides should be the standards arrangements to link a petition of 10% of the electorate would be required to into the recall proposals. The Government do not wish occasion a recall by-election; and then that Member to impose how the House chooses to govern its affairs could stand in the by-election. My right hon. Friend has and have drafted the Bill accordingly. That principle is experience of standing in a by-election—not caused by of great importance to our parliamentary democracy, any wrongdoing, I hasten to say, but because he was and it seems to me that we should exhaust all other making a point—and he won the support of his constituents avenues before casually setting it aside. for his action, so his experience might provide some reassurance. Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD): Surely the Minister Mr Frank Field: It really comes back to the point—many realises that the reliance on the Standards Committee Members have made it—about the threshold needing to goes to the root of public dissatisfaction with the Bill. It be high enough. There are clearly two ways in which might be the case, as he suggested earlier, that the people view the electorate. I was under recall by the Political and Constitutional Reform Committee has Trots for 10 years, and it was the electorate who saved faith in the operation of the Standards Committee, but me. It is possible to look to one’s voters as a bulwark of many members of the general public—our electors—simply freedom, not as a group of people who wish to destroy do not. us. Greg Clark: That is exactly why the Committee is Greg Clark: The right hon. Gentleman makes an reflecting upon its current arrangements and considering excellent point. None of us would be here today had we whether they should be amended. not had the endorsement of our constituents, and none I should also say—this is the earliest opportunity of us should be afraid of that endorsement. I have had—that I was wrongly advised in the answer I The second trigger is if an MP is suspended from the gave to the hon. Member for North Down (Lady Hermon). House for 21 sitting days or more. A suspension of She will be reassured to know that the provisions would such length indicates that the individual in question has apply to Sinn Fein MPs. 777 Recall of MPs Bill21 OCTOBER 2014 Recall of MPs Bill 778

Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) (Con): I agree Greg Clark: I was not aware of that and so am entirely with the two triggers that my right hon. Friend intrigued by what my hon. Friend says. I see that the has outlined, but surely there is a third case: where a Government Whip is sending a note, perhaps Member is not doing his duty. In local government recommending that to her colleagues in the Whips there is a rule whereby councillors who do not attend Office as an available sanction. meetings or vote for six months are automatically disqualified. Surely that, too, should be a trigger to Several hon. Members rose— allow a recall. Greg Clark: I will make some progress, because Greg Clark: As I have made clear, there are many many Members wish to speak. views about the level of the recall and what the mechanism I will turn briefly to the conduct of petitions once should be. I look forward to my hon. Friend’s contribution they are triggered by the provisions of the Bill. The to the debate and think that all Members will understand Government’s priority has been to develop voting the point he makes. One of the consequences of procedures that fit with what the public rightly expect imprisonment, of course, is that an MP is prevented from any official democratic election in this country. from attending, so at least part of that is covered by that Safeguards must be in place to ensure that voting is provision. robust, fair and open. I will not set out this process in detail here, but I look forward to debates in Committee Mr Andrew Lansley (South Cambridgeshire) (Con): on the clauses and schedules. Under the Bill’s proposals, Although the decision to suspend a Member is one for 10% of eligible constituents would need to sign the this House, the effective trigger for that process is a petition for it to be successful. If at the end of the recommendation from the Standards Committee. Does eight-week recall period the 10% threshold had been my right hon. Friend therefore agree that it is met, the MP would vacate his or her seat and a by-election important not only that we recognise that it results would be held. There would be no legal barrier to the from an independent inquiry by the Parliamentary unseated individual standing in the by-election. Commissioner for Standards, but that in the current As I have described, we have made changes to the Bill review we strengthen the lay participation and voice in as a result of pre-legislative scrutiny. I appreciate that the Standards Committee? Does he agree not only that there will be—there have been already—strong views on that should include an increase in the number of lay these proposals, and I welcome the House’s serious members, but that this House should hear directly from consideration and discussion of them. I remind the the lay members if in any respect they do not agree House that the transition to representative democracy with the conclusion of the Standards Committee as a did not take place in a single step, and nor will the whole? progress we make towards more direct democracy— something I have always believed in. With the benefit of Greg Clark: That is exactly what I was alluding to hindsight we can see that our predecessors were sometimes when I said that the Standards Committee is considering excessively cautious, not least in extending the franchise ways to strengthen its credibility with members of the to women. Nevertheless, our country has gained more public. My right hon. Friend has substantial experience than it has lost from the British preference for evolutionary of those issues from his time as Leader of the House. I over revolutionary change. I believe that the Bill strikes am sure that he will make an important and serious the right balance between holding Members of Parliament contribution to the debate. to account while ensuring that they can do their job I recognise that the creation of a recall mechanism without facing frivolous or politically motivated petitions. for Members of Parliament clearly raises the question We want a recall process that is fair, open and robust, of how recall might fit with the disciplinary arrangements and I commend the Bill to the House. for other office holders in future. The triggers in the Bill have been carefully designed to fit with the particular 1.29 pm rules of this House, and for that reason cannot be automatically applied to the recall of other elected Stephen Twigg (Liverpool, West Derby) (Lab/Co- office holders. This is not, and is not designed to be, a op): I welcome the tone and tenor of the Minister’s one-size-fits-all piece of legislation—that would be even opening speech and in particular the commitment that more difficult to establish a consensus around—but we he has made seriously to consider amendments that will must of course learn the appropriate lessons from its strengthen the Bill. I will come to that during my implementation, which might in future be applied to remarks. other areas. I know that there will be debate, both today This is a debate of critical importance to our politics and later, on which other areas it might be appropriate and democracy. People feel more disconnected from to extend recall to. However, this Bill is narrowly about Parliament and more disenchanted with the political Members of Parliament. process than possibly ever before. Polling and academic research reveal the pre-eminence of this distrust, but all Mr Stewart Jackson: Returning to the point made by of us know that the most vivid displays of antipathy our hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset are found on the doorstep when we meet voters while (Jacob Rees-Mogg) on the efficacy of primary legislation, we are campaigning. People feel let down by politics, the House might know that in 1947 the Labour MP they feel angry, and they feel that too often their voice Garry Allingham was expelled from the House for is not heard and that we politicians are out of touch. writing disobliging comments about fellow Members—not Of course, politicians have never been the most popular for any criminal offence—so there is a precedent for people. It is in the nature of our job that we have to expelling a Member whose conduct falls below that make unpopular decisions at times, as the Minister which most electors would think suitable and appropriate. rightly said. But in 2009 the relationship between politics 779 Recall of MPs Bill21 OCTOBER 2014 Recall of MPs Bill 780 and the people reached a nadir during the scandal Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) about MPs’ expenses. We can never be complacent or (Lab): My hon. Friend is making a powerful argument overestimate just how much damage was done to the about the disgust that many of our constituents still standing of politics, politicians and this House with the feel about politics and politicians, and about the public by what was revealed in 2009. In tough times, importance of the Bill. Does he think that the measures when families had been taking difficult decisions about relating to accountability and in particular to MPs their own household spending and with the economy in adjudicating on themselves are strong enough? recession, revelations about the abuse of MPs’ expenses understandably left the public furious with the system Stephen Twigg: I will come to those issues in a and furious with the individuals involved. moment. The straightforward answer is no, I do not think those measures are strong enough. During the Richard Drax: I am tired of this general slagging-off Committee stage we need to strengthen them significantly. of people who work so hard for their constituencies. Labour supports recall. Our manifesto commitment Like many of us here, I was not an MP then, but I admit in 2010 stated: that some dishonourable behaviour sadly occurred in “MPs who are found responsible for financial misconduct will this House. What we need to restore is honour; we do be subject to a right of recall”. not need legislation for that. We need a system that improves accountability and Stephen Twigg: I partly agree with the hon. Gentleman. gives more power to the public to hold their representatives It is about how all of us do the job and about the to account between elections. That is a matter of fairness. culture of politics, but it is also about legislation. I will People go to work each day and they know that if they come to that now. break the rules, if they behave inappropriately at work, they may face the sack. The job of a Member of Mark Field (Cities of London and Westminster) Parliament should be no different. If we are to regain (Con): I do not disagree with much of what the hon. the trust of the people, we cannot place ourselves Gentleman has said about the level of distrust, but does outside or above this basic principle. he accept that the lack of independence of many MPs is However, the system of recall needs to reflect what the biggest concern for many of our constituents? Does the job of a Member of Parliament is. We are not he not think that one of the concerns about a recall Bill delegates to this place. We have a representative democracy, broadly, which I support, is that it would largely undermine in which Members of Parliament are sent to represent that sense of the independence of the individual MP? their constituencies, and sometimes that involves making difficult decisions. A balance has to be drawn between Stephen Twigg: The hon. Gentleman makes a very giving people the opportunity to recall MPs for misconduct, important point. Later I shall refer to a distinction that and allowing MPs to make difficult decisions. For others have made in interventions and which the misconduct, recall makes sense. For holding MPs to Minister himself made between our conduct as account for their voting record, general elections are the Members of Parliament and the issues that we vote on, appropriate mechanism. We will support this Bill on and how we are held to account for our voting. The Second Reading, but look forward to strengthening it in hon. Gentleman makes a powerful point that although Committee. recall is, in my opinion, a correct mechanism for dealing with misconduct, it is a more questionable We believe that the Bill is an unacceptably minimalist mechanism for dealing with issues to do with voting. interpretation of the right to recall. For example, as the One consequence of a particular model of recall could Minister set out, one of the triggers in the Bill is when be to undermine the independence of MPs, for the an MP is suspended from the House of Commons for reason that he gave. at least 21 sitting days or 28 calendar days. Had this rule been in operation over the past 25 years, there are In 2010 each of the main parties made proposals to only two occasions on which Members of Parliament change the system in response to the tide of distrust would have been caught by this proposed change. As that I described. As the Minister said, each of us had a my hon. Friend the Member for Motherwell and commitment to some form of recall in our manifesto. Wishaw (Mr Roy) pointed out, for the Members of The Minister said that the Government have not rushed Parliament who were caught up in the “cash for into this. That is an understatement: it is a shame that it questions” scandal in the 1990s, because of the nature has taken more than four years to have a Bill before the of the punishment they faced, recall would not have House. At one point both the Prime Minister and the been triggered. Deputy Prime Minister promised to pursue a new politics of democracy and transparency. Well, it has taken them Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) quite a while to get round to it, and now that they have, (SNP): Can the hon. Gentleman envisage a situation neither of them seems very pleased with the Bill before where the political pressure would be on the Standards the House. Committee to increase the penalties? The political The Deputy Prime Minister, who led on the Bill that pressure means that 21 days’ suspension has to be given was published earlier in this Parliament, said this summer as a punishment to bring in the trigger mechanisms, so that he agreed with the critics of that Bill, and just in some ways the trigger is a foolish mechanism, and yesterday he said he wished that the latest attempt—the the Standards Committee probably should not be Bill before us today—had gone further. The Prime involved at all. Minister, at Prime Minister’s questions last Wednesday, four and a half years after declaring his intent to pursue Stephen Twigg: The hon. Gentleman makes a very a new politics, said that the current Bill is the minimum good point. I will address the role of the Standards acceptable. Surely after four and a half years they could Committee in a moment. These are precisely the sort of have come up with something better than this. issues that we want to address in Committee next week. 781 Recall of MPs Bill21 OCTOBER 2014 Recall of MPs Bill 782

Greg Clark: To correct the shadow Minister and for Stephen Twigg: I absolutely agree. That is why the the information of the House, I point out that there are principle of recall is so important and why this Bill is in fact six Members of Parliament who would have welcome, but I hope that over the coming weeks the been caught by the provisions. I mentioned Chris Huhne House will work hard to strengthen its provisions. and Eric Illsley on the imprisonment aspect. In terms of suspension, there would have been four more—Teresa Anne Marie Morris (Newton Abbot) (Con): I am Gorman, the right hon. Member for Leicester East pleased that the hon. Gentleman believes, as I do, that (Keith Vaz), Denis MacShane and Patrick Mercer. the Bill needs to be strengthened and expanded. We have heard several interventions about the limits that Stephen Twigg: The Minister is including Members result from the triggers. Would he trust the electorate who resigned from the House before the Standards such that, instead of having triggers, we simply said that Committee’s proposals were considered, but I acknowledge a reason for recall had to be given, with the name of a what he says. I still think that six is a very small number, sponsor calling for it? Might that be a better way considering the scale of the challenge that we face. With forward, because we would not try artificially to prescribe reference to the particular example that my hon. Friend in advance what the trigger might be? cited of the “cash for questions” scandal in the 1990s, there is a concern that the length of period covered by Stephen Twigg: Clearly, we will have amendments to the Bill would not have affected the MPs in that case. that effect before the House meets next Monday, and it is right that we consider them in detail in Committee. The danger with that very pure approach is that we Zac Goldsmith (Richmond Park) (Con): The hon. could cross the line between misconduct and how we Gentleman is providing a strong critique of the vote as Members of Parliament. That is problematic, Government’s Bill and I agree with much of what he for reasons that I will set out later. says. At the Committee stage there will be a wide range of views about what needs to be done to improve the Kate Hoey (Vauxhall) (Lab): Does my hon. Friend Bill. The indication is that the Conservative party will think that there is any room in this Bill to deal with the be offering a free vote. Will we hear that from the situation where Members of Parliament are elected and Labour party as well? then do not take their seats, but continue to get substantial amounts of money? Surely that is, in some way, bringing Stephen Twigg: I thank the hon. Gentleman. I will this House into disrepute. refer shortly to some of the proposals that he has made. I am not in a position to make announcements about Stephen Twigg: My hon. Friend is tempting me into the Opposition’s whipping arrangements or the an area that I do not think I will be tempted into. I am Government’s, but they will be made available in due sure she will have opportunities to raise those issues in course. the House at later stages.

Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): While we are correcting Lady Hermon: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman the record, the hon. Member for Peterborough for allowing me to tempt him in a related but different (Mr Jackson), who is no longer in his place, said earlier direction. Will he confirm to the House that the Labour that Garry Allingham was thrown out of the House for party welcomes the fact that this Bill extends to absentee passing on notes. In fact, he was suspended from the MPs, given that the Minister said, correcting his earlier House because he had alleged that other MPs had been reply to me, that it applies to all MPs on the day after bribed by journalists with drinks to give them tittle-tattle. polling day, not when they take their seats, and therefore The only person who had been thus involved was the does apply to Sinn Fein? said Member, Garry Allingham. Interestingly, the one person who felt that he could not vote to suspend a man Stephen Twigg: Yes indeed. It is very important that for drinking too much with a journalist was Winston this legislation applies to all elected Members of Parliament Churchill. from the point at which they are elected. I thank the hon. Lady for giving me the opportunity to confirm that from the Dispatch Box. Stephen Twigg: I thank my hon. Friend for putting that on the record. It is important that the public are able to hold Members of Parliament to account for serious wrongdoing and The example of the “cash for questions” scandal in misconduct—for example, taking financial reward for the 1990s exemplifies the weakness in the Bill. If we everyday parliamentary activity. Any system of recall accept the principle of recall, then surely such clear needs to pass that rudimentary test. In Committee we examples of misconduct should fall within the criteria will look at ways to strengthen that aspect of the Bill. that I set out. The length of suspension required to trigger a recall petition is currently too high, and it fails to catch some Mr Heath: The stories mentioned by the hon. Members of the clear cases of misconduct that we have witnessed. for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) and for Peterborough There is also the question of how we can and should (Mr Jackson) demonstrate part of the problem, which improve the process of suspension that would lead to is the self-importance of this House and its willingness recall. As the Minister confirmed, the Bill does not to act as a gentlemen’s club rather than, at the end of mention changes to that process, or, indeed, changes to the day, giving the verdict to our constituents. That is the Standards and Privileges Committee. I hope that in why this Bill, with I hope, a widening of the trigger Committee we will look at ways in which we can ensure mechanism, is so important. that the process is not party-politicised and, as a number 783 Recall of MPs Bill21 OCTOBER 2014 Recall of MPs Bill 784 of Members have suggested in interventions, more I am going to set out my thinking on such a proposal in independent. It is sensible to rebalance the Standards a moment, so if he could be patient I will respond to his and Privileges Committee so that it does not reflect a point. Government majority, whoever is in power, and to increase the lay membership of the Committee, as the Mr MacNeil: The hon. Gentleman said that Terry former Leader of the House, the right hon. Member for Fields would probably have been re-elected with a massive South Cambridgeshire (Mr Lansley), said. majority. Would it not be a failure of any legislation if it The second trigger in the Bill allows for a petition if brought about a situation where a Member faced a an MP receives a custodial sentence. As the Minister by-election and came back with a massive majority? said, some of the people who would have been caught Surely the point of recall legislation is to put the issue to by these proposals received a custodial sentence for the test on something that is marginal and not something political protest. One of my predecessors in Liverpool, where there could be a situation involving vexatious Terry Fields, who was the MP for Liverpool Broadgreen, constituents who perhaps opposed the poll tax and would have faced a recall petition when he was sent to knew full well that the MP would be returned with a prison for refusing to pay the poll tax. We need to bear massive majority. these issues in mind when we are debating this aspect of the Bill. At the same time, I think it would be widely felt Stephen Twigg: The hon. Gentleman is making an that if a Member of Parliament committed a crime and important point about the risk of a relatively small was sent to prison, it would be appropriate that, whatever minority of—to use his phrase—vexatious constituents their motive, the public in their constituency had the abusing the system. That is a risk with a pure recall opportunity to sack them if they wished to do so rather system, as I will explain in a moment. than moving to a general election. Mr Charles Walker: I have great admiration for members Zac Goldsmith: The hon. Gentleman’s point about of the public—after all, they are my electorate—but Terry Fields proves exactly why it is so hard to define could the shadow Minister define “genuine members of what is wrongdoing. In those circumstances, it would the public”? not just have been a matter of his constituents having the choice of recalling him—it would have required just Stephen Twigg: I do not understand why the hon. 10% of them to throw him out of his job, even if he Gentleman is asking that question. Did I use that might then have clawed his way back through a by-election. phrase? That is one of many problems with the Bill. Mr Walker: The shadow Minister agreed with the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Wayne David) that we Stephen Twigg: The hon. Gentleman makes an important should involve “genuine members of the public”, but point of substance that we need to consider as the Bill what does that mean? “Genuine members of the public” progresses. I imagine that Terry Fields would have been is a political phrase like “innocent victims”—I have re-elected by a massive majority for the stand that he never come across a guilty victim. What are “genuine took against the poll tax. members of the public”?

Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab): A moment ago my Stephen Twigg: They are those who are representative hon. Friend referred to the need for lay members to be of the full range of the public. Often people who are involved in the process of trigger determination. Does appointed to some of these committees will tend to he agree, however, that it is important that we do not be—how shall I put it?—the great and the good, who just get the usual kinds of people but have genuine are not necessarily entirely representative of the full members of the public involved? range of the public. That is what I understood by the phrase, “genuine members of the public”. Of course, Stephen Twigg: My hon. Friend is absolutely right; I there will be strong opinions on both sides of this am glad that he has made that point. That will be a debate, which is why the Committee stage will be so crucial part of our consideration not only in Committee important. but in some of the wider discussion that is happening Let me now address the amendments that the hon. about the future of the Standards and Privileges Committee. Member for Richmond Park (Zac Goldsmith) is likely The political membership is contentious in terms of to table. First, I welcome his contribution and that of MPs policing ourselves. We could address that by ensuring all Members on the committee chaired by the right hon. that the lay membership is genuinely credible with the Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis). It is wider public. probably fair to say that the Government may not have put this Bill before the House had it not been for their Douglas Carswell (Clacton) (UKIP): There has been hard work and persistence. The proposals of the hon. some discussion about the need to ensure that we have Member for Richmond Park manage to avoid some of more lay members involved in deciding whether to the problems associated with the Government’s Bill. As trigger a recall. Surely the lay members are called he said in his intervention, there would be no issues constituents, and we should have a mechanism that about unfairly allowing a petition when an MP is allows them to decide whether a recall is triggered. They imprisoned for protest; about having to debate the are, after all, the lay members who count most. length of suspension from this place; or about the independence of any recall trigger mechanism. His likely Stephen Twigg: I know that the hon. Gentleman has amendments would allow for the trigger to be in the campaigned on this issue for a very long time and has a hands of the people, and there is a simplicity to that consistent stance that is reflected in his intervention. proposal that is, of course, attractive. 785 Recall of MPs Bill21 OCTOBER 2014 Recall of MPs Bill 786

[Stephen Twigg] would have to agree before a recall could be triggered. That is a much higher threshold than this rather ill- The hon. Gentleman’s proposals, however, run into thought-through Government proposal. trouble when we assess the potential effect on the constitutional role of Members of Parliament. If we Stephen Twigg: The right hon. Gentleman has anticipated accept that the job of an MP is to be a representative, the next and, Members will be relieved to hear, final not a delegate, that has consequences for where we part of my speech. I accept that his committee produced stand in this debate. MPs on both sides of the House rather high thresholds for the later stages of its proposal, need to be able to sometimes make difficult decisions. but the 5% threshold for a notice of intent is low. There Sometimes they have to fulfil roles in government and are sensible ways in which some of these concerns could there is a risk that the hon. Gentleman’s likely amendments be countered. Is there a way in which we could ensure could challenge that. that MPs could be recalled only for their misconduct? For example, the hon. Gentleman’s model of recall—the pure model—has the potential to give enormous power Mr Winnick: Is there not a danger in all this of to well-funded, wealthy groups and organisations that intimidating Members of Parliament against taking up could run concerted campaigns to pressure MPs to act unpopular causes? For example, as a Labour Back in a certain way. Bencher in the late 1950s, Barbara Castle argued for a settlement in Cyprus when British troops were being Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab): My hon. killed by EOKA. It was a very unpopular cause and one Friend is making a very good point. We need look no can well imagine what would have happened to her had further than the United States, where the Koch brothers there been recall legislation. She may have survived it, use their multibillion-dollar war chest for no other but she would have felt under intense pressure. At the partisan reason than to get rid of individuals who do end of it all, of course, she was right: there was a not agree with their warped sense of the world. settlement in Cyprus. Stephen Twigg: My hon. Friend makes that case Stephen Twigg: My hon. Friend makes a powerful strongly, as have others, both in this place and elsewhere. point, which reinforces a concern felt by many—not That is why I reaffirm the distinction between causes, just in this House, but outside it—that without proper which my hon. Friend has just mentioned and for which regulation a system of pure recall could be subject to the election is the vehicle for accountability, and conduct, abuse. which is, rightly, the focus for recall.

Richard Drax: May I add to the excellent point the Jonathan Edwards: Will the shadow Minister give an shadow Minister has just made that if there were three indication of the Labour party’s thinking? If the House or four petitions against a sitting MP during a five-year of Commons is going to have a recall mechanism, no term, their reputation would be damaged, perhaps unfairly, matter what it is, does the Labour party agree with the and their chance of being re-elected severely reduced? principle that the other Parliaments of the British state, That cannot be right. including the National Assembly for Wales and the Scottish Parliament, should also have the ability to Stephen Twigg: I agree with the hon. Gentleman and introduce their own recall mechanism, whatever type it will return to that point in a moment. may be, should they so wish? The constant pressure of notices of intent, even if they are supported by only a very small minority in a Stephen Twigg: That is a matter that should be decided constituency—a notice of intent could be triggered by by those devolved bodies. I understand that there have just 5% of the electorate—could prove destabilising to been discussions in Scotland about doing so. [Interruption.] the ability of the Member of Parliament to fulfil his or I am being tempted to announce a policy on Welsh her duties, both in this place and, frankly, in their devolution, but that is slightly outside my remit. I think constituency. Politicians often have to make decisions that, in principle, if this House has a reserve power, it that are unpopular in their constituency, but they may should give it up so that it becomes a matter for the be decisions that are ultimately right for the country as devolved bodies themselves to decide, but a decision a whole. In our system, a Secretary of State is accountable would need to be made by those bodies. I suspect that I to this House, but if they are a Member of this House may have moved party policy on, so some clarification they also have a constituency. Does it make sense for a might be given later, but the principle has to be one Secretary of State to face recall for making a decision whereby the decision is made by the appropriate body. that may be unpopular in their own constituency but By the way—I think my hon. Friend the Member for may make sense for the country as a whole? Dunfermline and West Fife (Thomas Docherty), who will wind up the debate, will talk about this—there is Mr David Davis: I thank the hon. Gentleman for also a very good case to be made that the kinds of recall referring to our committee, but I think he underestimates mechanisms we are discussing for Members of Parliament the wisdom of the public. When I had my by-election, should be considered for other positions, such as those the policy I was campaigning against had the support of of police and crime commissioners and mayors. That 72% of the public, and yet I was returned by 75%. In the may be outside the scope of this Bill, but we should proposal authored by my hon. Friend the Member for consider it at an early opportunity. Richmond Park (Zac Goldsmith), the thresholds are I will close with some final comments on the proposals sizeable: there would need to be, in effect, 15,000 votes of the hon. Member for Richmond Park. I have said in a normal constituency and then 50% of the constituency that we should look at whether there are ways in which 787 Recall of MPs Bill21 OCTOBER 2014 Recall of MPs Bill 788

MPs could be recalled only for their misconduct. To to hold their MP to account. We have a system in which address the issue raised by the hon. Member for South once an MP is selected they are inviolable until the next Dorset (Richard Drax), could there be a limited number election. An MP could switch parties, refuse to attend of recall petitions per Parliament? Some of the American Parliament at all, refuse to meet constituents in any states with the power of recall limit the number of times context, systematically break each and every promise it can be allowed within a legislative term. Are the they had ever made to get voted in or even disappear off proposed thresholds reasonable? Could there be a higher on holiday for five years, and their constituents could threshold at the early stage? do absolutely nothing about it. Such a formula is no Members on both sides of the House are in favour of longer sustainable. the principle of recall. [Interruption.] I hear some dissent. I think that most Members of this House, as Kate Hoey: The hon. Gentleman knows that I support will probably be demonstrated in today’s vote, are in his amendments. He mentions hon. Members not attending favour of the principle of recall. There will be very Parliament. Does he include the Sinn Fein Members important debates in Committee about what the best who do not take their seats and never come into the system might be and how best to deliver it. As I have Chamber? said, the Bill needs to be strengthened considerably from its current state in order for it to have meaning. Zac Goldsmith: The very basis of the version of recall The “minimum acceptable”—which was the phrase used that I and, I am pleased to say, a great many colleagues by the Prime Minister last week—is simply not good will seek to bring forward next week—I will explain it in enough. The public will, rightly, expect more. We will a few moments—is that it is down to the voters. If the support the Bill’s Second Reading, but we will work conduct of Sinn Fein representatives is below what hard in Committee to strengthen it. people expect, for that reason or perhaps others people should have the power to make such a decision for themselves; they should not require the permission of 1.58 pm the House. I do not pretend that recall is the answer to Zac Goldsmith (Richmond Park) (Con): Of all the the problems that I have identified, but it is an answer. promises made in the heat of the expenses scandal, recall was the only one that resonated properly with Conor Burns (Bournemouth West) (Con): My hon. voters. It was a promise that they could hold their MPs Friend is making very powerful arguments that he has to account at all times, with a mechanism for removing held dear for a long time. May I suggest that the an MP who had lost the confidence of a majority of overwhelming majority of people who stand for and get their constituents. I know that some colleagues thought elected to this place do so for good and noble reasons it was a foolish promise for the party leaders to make and want to serve their constituency and their country? and that anger levels would eventually die down and We should acknowledge that in this debate, and not people would eventually re-engage with the political always talk down the nobility of being in politics. process, but that misses the point. Voter turnout has been decreasing for years and years, and party membership Zac Goldsmith: I could not agree more. That is precisely has been plummeting to miserable levels over a very why I believe that we need a proper recall system—not long period. Five years on from that scandal, the general some shenanigans conveying the impression that they confidence levels in MPs are at an all-time low—26% give people recall powers without actually giving them according to a recent survey. The expenses scandal did any power at all—that would give Members, such as my not start that trend; it cemented it and confirmed a hon. Friend and many others, a permanent implied prejudice that people, rightly or wrongly, already had. mandate. In a few moments, I will explain why recall I think that most hon. Members recognise that change will help to give dignity and to restore nobility to this is not just necessary but inevitable, just as it was at other place, but if he thinks that I have not addressed his times in our history when events required politics to concerns properly, I invite him to intervene again. adapt and move on. When the industrial revolution Recall would allow people in extreme circumstances— changed society beyond all recognition, the first Reform where a clear majority of them have lost confidence in Act became inevitable. It was inevitable that women their MP—to remove their MP between elections. It would eventually be given the right to vote, despite the would give people a sense of ownership over their resistance to it. Well, the world has changed again. democracy, which would help in and of itself. When the last big step was taken in 1969—the voting Recall is not a new or radical idea. It exists in various age was lowered to 18 for all men and women—the only forms in about 30 countries on five continents, including information that people had about their MP, other than Poland, Canada, Germany, Japan, India, South Korea, the odd scandal in the newspapers, was via very selectively Costa Rica, Taiwan, Mexico, Argentina, Peru and Ecuador. crafted newsletters. Today, people will know how their It has existed in the US for more than 100 years, and in Members have spoken in this debate and how they have Switzerland for even longer. It is a good idea—it works— voted at the end of it within seconds of their doing so. and it is great that the mainstream parties have finally With 24-hour news, the internet and social media, we accepted it. are in a world that is completely different, and that has happened very quickly. People have simply never had Mr Kevan Jones: I am very interested in what the hon. more or better information, but politics has not even Gentleman says about recall empowering voters. In begun to adjust. practice, would it not do what it does in the United People know so much more about what we are up to States, which is to empower wealthy individuals who are in this place, but that has merely compounded the sense not happy with what their representative is doing to that once they have voted there is nothing they can do mobilise against them? It would empower wealthy 789 Recall of MPs Bill21 OCTOBER 2014 Recall of MPs Bill 790

[Mr Kevan Jones] we can trust the public to see through such attempts. Surely recall is about empowering our constituents to individuals, such as the hon. Gentleman, to influence ensure that they do not feel let down and failed by their events in a way that my ordinary constituents and I local Member of Parliament. cannot? Zac Goldsmith: My hon. Friend is exactly right—I Zac Goldsmith: I will explain why such concerns are hope in due course to make such points as well as she groundless during my speech, but I will make one point, has—including about the fact that the protection lies in partly in response to the Opposition spokesman. Concerns the threshold, and I will come on to that in a second. about expenditure during the recall process are a matter for regulations; the amendments that my colleagues and Heather Wheeler (South Derbyshire) (Con): When I I seek to introduce would not tamper with the Government’s sat on the Standards and Privileges Committee, it was proposed regulations on expenses. That separate technical interesting to see the sort of complaints that we received. issue can be very easily addressed. Regularly, there were 28 complaints a month of which only one was relevant to what the Committee could Mr Jones: I am sorry, but that is not the point. look at, and it quite often ended up as a case of “No Expenditure limits can be put on the recall election, but harm, no foul”. My difficulty with my hon. Friend’s the campaigning in the lead-up to such an election amendments is that the work load created would sometimes would undermine the representative in getting their be absolutely phenomenal. I want a very high threshold constituents— to avoid the problem of vexatious complaints.

Douglas Carswell: Trust the voters. Zac Goldsmith: I thank my hon. Friend for her intervention, and I will address her points properly, but Mr Jones: This is not about trusting the voters, but if she feels that I have not done so, I invite her to feel about putting influence in the hands of a small group of free to intervene at any point. very wealthy individuals. If the hon. Member for Richmond Park (Zac Goldsmith), with the wealth he has, wanted Mr John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con): I think that to shift a Member of Parliament, he could do it. my hon. Friend’s proposals include not having a recall opportunity within six months of a general election, for Zac Goldsmith: The hon. Gentleman takes a very dim the obvious reason that there would soon be an opportunity view of his electorate if he thinks that that is so easy. to get rid of the MP if he or she were that unpopular. If Irrespective of that, the two-month petition stage before we repeal or move on from the law on five-year Parliaments a referendum will be regulated, so his cost arguments and go back to a system in which the Prime Minister simply do not apply. has discretion on when to call a general election, how would that work? Mr Jones: What happens in practice in the United States is that individuals who take against a policy or a Zac Goldsmith: That would open up a whole new state or national representative can use their tremendous debate, but that is for another time. In the Bill put wealth to use a campaign in the lead-up to the recall together by the committee, the six-month limit relates election to undermine such a representative. The idea to the start of an election, not the end, so it is possible that that is somehow empowering the voters is not the to have a recall process after an election, but not within case. Recall empowers very wealthy individuals who six months of an election being called. The reason is could then— that someone may be elected on a spurious basis; for example, on the basis of a whole tangle of lies that are Douglas Carswell: You don’t trust the voters. then exposed.

Mr Jones: I do trust the electorate. The hon. Gentleman Several hon. Members rose— should stop chuntering from a sedentary position. The fact is that recall will give influence over who the Member of Parliament is not to the majority of the electors but Zac Goldsmith: I will make some progress and then to a small group of very wealthy individuals. take as many interventions as there is an appetite for. It is good that our three mainstream parties and all Zac Goldsmith: To my knowledge, in the United the smaller parties have understood that recall is necessary. States there are no limits on expenditure and on That is a sign of real progress. However, what is not broadcasters; in this country, we have limits on both. great is the Bill that we are debating today. The Deputy Even during the 100 years of recall in that wild west Prime Minister has said that it represents a small step in environment of the United States, there have been only the right direction. If only it did. I believe that the Bill 20 successes out of 40 attempts. The hon. Gentleman’s in its current form will set democracy back, and I want arguments simply do not match the experience of recall to try to explain why. anywhere in the world. They are complete nonsense. For one thing, the criteria in the Bill are so narrow, as we have heard from many Members today, that the Angie Bray (Ealing Central and Acton) (Con): Does process will be virtually pointless. It will still be possible my hon. Friend not agree that recall is not about for an MP to switch parties, refuse to attend Parliament, licensing vexatious attempts to unseat MPs? Frankly, disappear on holiday or break every promise that they the public would see through that, particularly if it was made before the election without qualifying for recall. frequent and clearly about political and personal grudges. The public will discover, with the very first scandal, that There would be checks and balances in the process, and they have been misled. The Bill will inflame the very 791 Recall of MPs Bill21 OCTOBER 2014 Recall of MPs Bill 792 resentment and anger that gave rise to it. Extraordinarily, “the period specified is a period of at least 21 sitting days”. the Deputy Prime Minister yesterday called it “the It does not state that they must be 21 consecutive sitting people’s recall”. I call it madness. days. It might help the Government if they go back and Another reason is that, instead of giving voters powers look at that. to hold this institution to account, the proposal is that the institution will, effectively, hold itself to account. Zac Goldsmith: That is a good point that I had not Except for when an MP is jailed, voters will need our picked up on. The hon. Gentleman made the valid and permission to initiate the recall process. Panicking because reasonable point in an earlier intervention that there of the backlash that he has received, the Deputy Prime would be enormous pressure from the media, social Minister said yesterday that he would create a panel of media and members of the public for 21 days to become ordinary independent people to adjudicate. As my hon. the norm, regardless of the offence. Friend the Member for Clacton (Douglas Carswell) has This shabby pretence of a reform needs to be profoundly pointed out, we already have that panel—it is called the amended. With the help of a considerable number of constituency. The proposal before us will appal voters colleagues, I hope to do so in Committee. The goal will and has been rejected, without exception, by every be to put voters in charge, but with enough checks and single democracy pressure group from 38 Degrees on balances to prevent any possibility of abuse. We will the left, all the way over to the TaxPayers Alliance, and attempt to remove the Government’s trigger and replace everything in between. it with a system that allows voters to initiate the process. The Bill could also destroy good MPs. Under the In response to the intervention of my hon. Friend the plans, just 10% of people can throw an MP out of Member for Ealing Central and Acton (Angie Bray), office, although that MP could claw their way back into the protection will be in the threshold. It must be low office if they got lucky in a by-election. Yes, the MP enough to make recall possible, but high enough to would have had to initiate the trigger, but history is full ensure that it happens only when it absolutely should. of hon. Members who have been suspended from this Under our proposals, there would be three simple House or even jailed for noble protest. The hon. Member stages. If 5% of the local electorate signed a notice of for Bolsover (Mr Skinner) is no longer in his place, but I intent to recall during a one-month period, the returning believe that he has been suspended from the House officer would announce a formal recall petition. The 10 times. I apologise if I have got that wrong. Is it purpose of the 5% provision is simply to show the correct? returning officer that there is an appetite for the formal petition process. It is the least formal part of the process Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab) indicated assent. and is designed to prevent the initiation of recall by a few angry cranks in the constituency, which every Zac Goldsmith: It is correct, so hopefully the hon. constituency has. Member for Bolsover will not be appalled that I have used that figure. Is he an hon. Member who merits Richard Drax: At the point when the 5% figure was recall? No, he is not. Would he have qualified for recall reached, the MP’s reputation would be damaged because under these plans? Probably, yes. the local newspaper would splash with, “MP to be recalled”, telephone calls would come in and the whole Mr Charles Walker: My hon. Friend mentioned pressure thing would spiral out of control, even though it could groups from the left and the right of politics. I have not potentially be a vexatious thing. I wait to hear what my had a single e-mail from a constituent on this issue that hon. Friend has to say, but I am not convinced about has not been initiated by a pressure group template, so how he will sieve out non-vexatious calls from the 5% he should not overestimate the public’s interest in the figure, which could ruin a Member’s reputation. That is Bill. such a small figure, particularly with modern media.

Zac Goldsmith: That is interesting. I have been Zac Goldsmith: The purpose of the 5% figure is to bombarded. I even received a letter this morning that take the temperature and to demonstrate to the returning said, “Dear Zac Goldsmith, we very much hope that officer that a sufficient number of people would like to you will support Zac Goldsmith’s amendments.” I take have a recall petition. On average, it would be about my hon. Friend’s point, but as is shown by all the 3,500 people. That is the least formal part of the process. surveys on this issue, of which there have been a great According to our amendments, it would require a 200-word many over the past few months, if this proposal is put to explanation of why the petition was being initiated. Of members of the public, it is something that they support. course, there will be times when people unfairly and The amendments that my colleagues and I will table unreasonably initiate the 5% process. However, if they in due course are based on a Bill that was put together get to 3,500 people, they will have demonstrated that by my right hon. Friend the Member for Haltemprice there is enough of an appetite for a proper recall process. and Howden (Mr Davis), which was crowdsourced. In answer to my hon. Friend’s point about sullying Some 40,000 people, many of whom were members of the reputation of the individual, recall is not part of the 38 Degrees and other organisations, went through it way in which we do politics in this country, but it is part line by line and fed in their comments. It has engaged a of the way in which many other democracies work. If it large number of people. I cannot think of another Bill became part of our culture, it would become a normal that has been subjected to that level of crowdsourcing. part of the argy-bargy of politics in this country and would be no source of shame. I suspect that every Mr MacNeil: The hon. Gentleman made me think of politician, at one point or another, would find themselves some of the lines in the Bill when he mentioned the hon. the subject of the 5% recall petition stage. The question Member for Bolsover (Mr Skinner). It states that is whether it would reach the 20% stage. 793 Recall of MPs Bill21 OCTOBER 2014 Recall of MPs Bill 794

[Zac Goldsmith] high threshold in one month, but I accept that it is a lot easier than 20% of signatures in person in the town hall. If 20% of constituents signed a petition in a two-month However, I am open to attempts on Report to amend period, not online, but in person in a verified, formal the amendments that I and colleagues will be tabling. A context, we would know that there was a problem. It consensus that 5% is too low and that 10% will meet the would mean that 14,000 people had left their home and approval of the House is for me an issue not of principle gone to the town hall or another specified venue to sign but of detail. If that is what it takes for the House to be their name. What is the biggest petition that anyone in comfortable with the proposals, I will politely go with the Chamber has faced since they became an MP? Was the flow on that. The principle is what matters. it anywhere near 14,000? I doubt it. If it was anywhere near 14,000, had it been verified? I doubt it. Was it Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con): I online? Could anyone have signed it? Was it timeless? have great sympathy with many of my hon. Friend’s Very likely. Was it geographically specific? I very much arguments about recall, but were his plans to be accepted doubt it. To get to 14,000 people is a massive result. and a recall initiated, would the names and addresses of This would not be an online gimmick, but would require constituents who signed the petition be public knowledge, people to go to the town hall and vote in person. or would that be confidential? That will obviously be of The most feedback that I have ever had as an great interest to many political figures. MP—admittedly, I have only been an MP for four years—related to our NHS reforms. Nearly 1,000 people Zac Goldsmith: The regulations we are using for wrote to me. Many of them were template letters, but those who sign the recall petition are exactly the same as not all of them. Nearly 1,000 people wrote to me to those proposed by the Government. I do not want to express their disgust at the policies that I was supporting, mislead the House, but my belief is that names and but not one of them came to see me. Had they had the addresses would not be published, and that this would opportunity to vote for my recall online, I suspect that be an anonymous process. The recall would need to be many of them would have done so, but how many of verified by the returning officer, but names would not them would have left their home to go to the town hall be publicly available. The name of the person who and sign a petition? If 14,000 people had done so in a initiates the 5% stage and the notice of intent to recall two-month period, I would have found it hard to put it would be made public, however, as would the description. down to the vexatious activities of the Liberal Democrats, I think that is right for a number of reasons, including the Labour party, the unions or anyone else. that there would be a person to whom the authorities could go if the 5% stage was fraudulent—if there were Frank Dobson (Holborn and St Pancras) (Lab): Is the duplicate signatures or if children or people from other last paragraph of the hon. Gentleman’s speech in favour constituencies were asked to sign. It is much easier to of recall or against it? attach legal responsibility to a named individual, as opposed to something entirely anonymous. Zac Goldsmith: I am very sorry, but will the right In responding to interventions I think I have described hon. Gentleman repeat his question? the process—I hope so; I am slightly lost—and I was beginning to describe what genuine recall would look Frank Dobson: The hon. Gentleman appears to be like: the 5% of constituents; then the 20% at the business saying that even if we accepted his extreme version of end, the 14,000 people going to the town hall and recall, it would not work because not enough people signing. If that 20% is met, the bell would be rung and a would take part. recall referendum would be announced. That would be a simple yes or no, where a majority—not a vexatious Zac Goldsmith: That is not at all what I am saying. I minority—of an MP’s constituents would be required do not want to trivialise the concern of Members across to boot them out in order to trigger the next stage, the House that this tool might be abused. The threshold which is a by-election. is therefore sufficiently high—it is possible to argue, perhaps rightly, that the threshold is too high—to make Mr Lansley: As I understand it, my hon. Friend’s it impossible for the right to be abused by vexatious alternative approach would enable a recall petition to campaigns by minority groups, pressure groups and so be triggered for any reason. Will he explain at what on. It is simply inconceivable that that could happen. point somebody who might be the subject not of a political complaint, but of allegations relating to their Mr Charles Walker: My hon. Friend and I have had personal affairs, their conduct in this House, or conduct many civilised conversations about this matter over recent that might be the subject of a criminal investigation, weeks. My concern centres on the 5% trigger. He knows would be subject to a petition? How would he prevent a full well that he and I could visit his local Sainsbury’s or petition from being triggered in circumstances where no Tesco on any matter and secure 3,750 signatures. My allegation had been proven against that person? concern is over that initial threshold. Perhaps a better threshold would be 10% of those who voted at the Zac Goldsmith: One supporter of the amendments previous election. For example, if 50,000 votes had been that will be tabled is my hon. Friend the Member for cast, the figure would be 5,000. Ribble Valley (Mr Evans), whose circumstances match closely those just described. I hope that he speaks at Zac Goldsmith: My hon. Friend makes a good point. some point in the debate—I do not see him here. He I think that 5% is about the right level, and that was the chose to support the amendments because he was reassured consensus of the committee of Back Benchers, which by provisions in them that once the judicial process represented seven different parties—5% was the figure begins, the recall process would be suspended. It would that people centred on. I think that 3,500 signatures is a not be possible to seek to recall a Member once such a 795 Recall of MPs Bill21 OCTOBER 2014 Recall of MPs Bill 796 process had begun, until it had concluded. I think that the biggest e-mail flurry they have received. It will not is right, and there was an overwhelming consensus that have been anywhere close to 14,000 signatures—not of that is right among the 40,000 people or so who responded constituents, at least. to the survey. The measure would provide the protection that is required. Richard Drax: Will my hon. Friend give way? To reach its logical conclusion, before getting to the by-election the process would require an absolute minimum Zac Goldsmith: In one moment, if my hon. Friend of five and a half months. This process would not does not mind. happen over a weekend, and five and a half months In dozens of democracies around the world that use would also allow Members to make the case to their recall, it is hardly ever used. In the US, where recall has constituents in a way that they could not in a short period existed for 100 years—I have already made this point—it of time. That is another reason why my right hon. has been used only 40 times, and only 20 times successfully. Friend the Member for Sutton Coldfield (Mr Mitchell) California is the most active recall state in the United —he has had similar experiences that I do not need to States. Only one governor in 100 years has ever been rehearse because everybody knows about them—is very recalled, and there is not a single example of a successful much a supporter of the Bill. He feels that the five-month vexatious recall campaign. process was far longer than he would have required to I know that other hon. Members worry that recall engage with his constituents and make the case. The might somehow turn us into delegates and no longer same is true of two other Members of the House who representatives—a point made by the hon. Member for have had difficulties in their lives and who began the Liverpool, West Derby (Stephen Twigg)—but that is debate very much in opposition to recall. They now not realistic. Voters care about a wide range of issues, both support the amendments because they feel that and it is rare for recall to be motivated only by one issue. they will get a fairer trial from their constituents than People might disapprove of a Member’s position on one they ever would from social media, the mainstream issue, but support them on a range of other issues. It is media, or from a standard committee of parliamentarians, rare for one issue to be a deal breaker, and the history of susceptible and fragile as we all are to tremendous recalls shows that that is very rare—I cannot think of pressures from newspapers and social media. The thresholds an example of one policy issue being the cause and and protections are there. effect of a successful recall.

Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con): In support of what Mr Kevan Jones: Gun control. my right hon. Friend the Member for South Cambridgeshire (Mr Lansley) said, I am worried about fairness. People Zac Goldsmith: There are no examples of that. There sign underneath a petition of 200 words, but is it not are examples of attempted recall on the back of gun fair for the MP to have a say at that point? How do we control, but not a successful one. It is probably true, cover the fact that the MP is accused and does not have however, that where recall is possible MPs will think the right of response to those 5% of people? twice about making undeliverable pledges, which is not a bad thing. It is also likely that where pledges have to be broken, MPs would feel obliged to engage extensively Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Dawn Primarolo): Order. with constituents to explain why that was necessary, Mr Goldsmith, you have been speaking for 27 minutes and that is also a good thing. and have been very generous with interventions. A lot Hundreds of thousands of constituents around the of other Members are waiting to contribute, and they country have been sent the same template letter from will not all be able to speak for nearly half an hour, as Liberal Democrat Members, and been told that this you have. Could you perhaps resist taking any more measure will cost too much. I saw one of those letters a interventions, make the points you wish to make and couple of days ago. Constituents have been told: conclude your speech? “Just one real Recall petition per constituency per Parliament could cost the taxpayer £100 million.” Zac Goldsmith: Thank you for that helpful reminder, That figure is completely bonkers. It inflates the Madam Deputy Speaker. I will wrap up my speech Government’s own impact assessment by 300%, and quickly, but I want to address briefly some of the assumes that each Member of this place will face the concerns raised. I do not seek to demean or trivialise full recall—not just the 5%—at least once in every those concerns, and I recognise that there are genuine, Parliament. If 650 Members of this place face recall in heartfelt and principled concerns about recall, as it one Parliament, the cost is the very least of our problems. represents a big step. The Deputy Prime Minister has Of course there are arguments against recall, but at referred often in the House to kangaroo courts, but I their core those are arguments against democracy itself emphasise that no Member could ever be recalled unless and against all elections. If those arguments prevail, I a majority of constituents choose for him or her to be believe that we will have lost a golden opportunity, not recalled. That is the whole point of a recall referendum. just for voters but for us as Members of this great place. We must keep a perspective. I am repeating myself, Recall would empower people to hold their MPs to but to reach a point of recall, 20% of constituents—some account, and that ubiquitous moan that we have all 14,000 people—would have to make the journey in heard—“You’re all the same; there’s no point voting person to a town hall or another dedicated place within and nothing will ever change”—would no longer make an eight-week period, and there would have to be a very any sense. The mere existence of recall would give each good reason for that recall. Any hon. Member who of us an added, implied continuous mandate, and embolden disputes that should try to think back to the biggest us as a Parliament. I do not say that it would fix our petition they have faced, and to the issue that triggered democracy, but it would be a very big start. 797 Recall of MPs Bill21 OCTOBER 2014 Recall of MPs Bill 798

2.29 pm visited. When Edmund Burke was MP for Bristol he visited it twice—no wonder they did not vote for him. Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): It is a delight to He also made some profoundly arrogant remarks on follow the hon. Member for Richmond Park (Zac the role of a politician and a Member of Parliament. Goldsmith). I just want to pick up on one point. He We think that this is all terribly unfair, but the end result said that votes for women were inevitable. I disagree. I is that voter turnout is falling, and falling in different of course passionately support women having the vote kinds of elections. Turnout is at its worst for police and and it seems inevitable to us today, but it took a first crime commissioner elections. I think it was always world war and millions of people slaughtered across the inevitable that they would have a particularly low turnout. continent for the political class in this country to change Incidentally, should there not be recall for them? its mind on women’s votes. Nearly every political reform that has happened in this country that has been worth After the second world war, in 1950, the turnout in having has had to be fought for and has never been the general election was 83.9%. At the last general inevitable. election turnout was 65%, even when we leave out the millions who have not even bothered to register. In one The first Reform Bill, when it came through the seat, Manchester Central, the turnout was just 44.3%. If Commons in 1830, was carried by a single vote. that is not the electorate voting on whether our system Mrs Thatcher only became Prime Minister because of a is bust, what is? single vote in the no confidence vote in 1979. Habeas corpus, when it was put on the statute book in 1679, Conor Burns: The hon. Gentleman mentions Edmund was carried by two votes in the House of Lords because Burke. In Burke’s famous address to his electors in a very fat peer was counted as 10 votes—it should never Bristol he said that Members of Parliament should have passed. If one believes in parliamentary reform, sacrifice their interests in favour of their constituents, one has to campaign for it and to fight for it. Nothing is but he also said that Members of Parliament owe their ever inevitable. I know the hon. Gentleman has been constituents their judgment and that if they betray their fighting and that is why I do not think he should judgment to their constituents’ opinion they are betraying, undermine his cause. not serving, them. Take the recent example of same-sex marriage. My concerns is that I was lobbied vigorously Mark Field: There was a general election in May by constituents to oppose it and I voted for it. What 1979. It may have escaped the hon. Gentleman’s attention, protection would there be in the recall mechanism for a but that was not in this place; it was outside among Member of Parliament who takes a conscious decision 60 million Britons. to vote against public opinion? Chris Bryant: I will come on to whether there should Chris Bryant: If it had not been for the vote of no be a recall in a situation in which MPs disagree with confidence and the nationalists joining with the their constituents. It is often said of my constituents—I Conservatives in March 1979, there would not have do not know whether it is true, but it is often said by the been that early general election. commentariat—that they would all vote in favour of If I am really honest, there is part of me that does not hanging. I am passionately opposed to hanging. If want to have anything at all to do with recall, because there were recalls solely on that matter, however, I think part of me thinks we should have confidence in the the voters would none the less choose to re-elect me parliamentary process and just have shorter Parliaments. because I was prepared to say what I believe and stand Five years for a fixed-term Parliament is far too long: it for. I think voters are actually far wiser in that respect should be four years. However, we have got to where we than even Burke would suggest. He also said: are because our parliamentary system is broken. It is “To be a good Member of Parliament is, let me tell you, no bust in important ways that matter to the public. We are easy task.” held in utter contempt as a class, if not as individuals. I I think we would all agree with that. recognise what the hon. Member for Bournemouth We have to bear in mind that not a single one of us in West (Conor Burns) said. All of us know that the vast this House receives the votes of more than 50% of the majority of politicians—more than the vast majority; total electorate, including those who choose not to virtually every single politician I know—have honourable vote—not a single one of us. There was only one British intentions and ambitions only for what is best for their seat in the 2001 election where a Member got more than country and want to change the world according to 40% of the total electorate, including those who did not their lights for good. The truth, however, is that that is vote. In that seat, both the Conservatives and the Liberal not what our voters think. Our voters have come to a Democrats lost their deposit. The constituency was the completely different conclusion. Maybe that is because, Rhondda. Even in the Rhondda, the figure is only a as the hon. Member for Richmond Park said, we have smidgeon above 40%. We must have a degree of humility sometimes made ludicrous promises that we knew, even in how we approach our electorate. Sometimes I think it when we made them, we were not going to be able to feels to our voters that we are not full of humility. deliver. The classic example is tuition fees. I could say that to the Liberal Democrats, but they could equally Richard Drax: I am listening to the hon. Gentleman’s say that to Labour Members when we first introduced arguments and his use of statistics. I would just like to tuition fees. pick up on one point. The number of people voting in It may be that familiarity in the past century has bred elections has dropped not, I believe, because of the contempt. One hundred years ago, people did not know misconduct of individual MPs, but because the identities what their Member of Parliament looked like. Many of the three main parties have merged. What I am MPs never lived in their constituency and hardly ever getting on the doorstep is that they are fed up with 799 Recall of MPs Bill21 OCTOBER 2014 Recall of MPs Bill 800 politicians not standing up for what they believe in. about constituencies where only 100 people could elect That does not have anything to do with misconduct. the MP, and it is no different today, which is why They are two entirely separate matters. constituency parties are finding it difficult to get more candidates to present themselves, even in safe seats. On Chris Bryant: The hon. Gentleman must have hacked both sides of the House, constituency parties are selecting into my computer, because he has basically said what I safe-seat candidates from a short list of two or even one. am about to say in my next couple of paragraphs. That Therefore, I would of course argue that the parliamentary is not an allegation of misconduct, by the way. [Laughter.] system is bust. In 1951, 1955 and 1959, the two main I do not think the Standards and Privileges Committee political parties, Labour and the Conservatives, received needs to address it. more than 90% of the vote, but now they get barely 65%, and in the European elections this year they got Edmund Burke has been mentioned a lot. When he 49.3%. Yet we have a “winner takes all” parliamentary campaigned against corruption in Parliament, he system in which the winner gets to appoint as many complained that there were too many people in the peers as they want and decide the whole Government pocket of the Crown. He came to the conclusion that and all business; only the Government get to table there were 140 Members of the Commons who, because motions laying a charge on the taxpayer or to advance they had a pension, a well-paid salary post in government legislation as a priority at the beginning of the day, and or had been given some kind of perk or sinecure, were so on. in the pocket of the Crown, and he complained about those 140 MPs. Today, we have 95 paid Government For a long time, we had a system that allowed a chink Ministers, 43 Conservative Parliamentary Private Secretaries, of democracy: we had ministerial by-elections. For centuries, five Liberal Democrat Parliamentary Private Secretaries if someone was appointed a Minister, they had to face a and seven Conservative members of the No. 10 policy by-election in their constituency, because they had to go board, to say nothing of those on the Government back to their voters and say, “Is it all right for me to join Benches or on the Opposition Benches who want to the Government?” I would argue that that is a perfectly have those jobs. legitimate system, but of course people did not like it. In 1908, when he lost his ministerial by-election, Winston My complaint is that there are now more than 150 Churchill, who had a terrible habit of losing elections, MPs in the direct employ of the Government who have said: no choice in how they are going to vote. If we take all “It is an awful hindrance to anyone in my position to be always the others into account, more than half the Members in forced to fight for his life and always having to make his opinions this House have their voting determined entirely for on national politics to conform to local exigencies”. them by two people: the Prime Minister and the Leader Some of our objections to recall are basically that of the Opposition. Ironically, France has just 35 Ministers, self-same arrogant attitude towards the electorate. It is none of whom are in their Parliament. Germany has an awful hindrance, isn’t it, to let the voters get in our just 17 Cabinet Ministers and two under-Ministers in way? each Department—50 in total. The UK therefore has The key issue in the Bill is the threshold. In essence, it more Government Ministers than France and Germany places the initial decision in the hands of MPs or the put together. In essence this House, which should be the courts. The danger is that the courts would decide not cockpit of political debate expressed without any fear to imprison an MP because it would of necessity start or favour, where the nation’s grievances are aired and the recall process, so MPs would not be treated the same solutions found in what should be a free and fair as others before the law. Furthermore, if we put the legislature, is frankly today nothing more than a gene decision in the hands of a Committee of MPs, regardless pool for Government. Our primary role is no longer to of how many members of the public—it does not scrutinise the Government or hold them to account; the matter whether they are genuine or non-genuine members majority of Members think that our primary role is to of the public—also sit on it, it just will not wash with staff or sustain the Government. In the end, that is a the public. problem. It is why we have all the planted questions and There was an extraordinary moment in 1911 when obsequious speeches and why votes we pass—on Magnitsky Asquith was Prime Minister. There had been a big or Palestine—with massive majorities are completely battle between the House of Commons and the House and utterly ignored by the Government. It is why we of Lords over the “people’s Budget”, which introduced still have a completely and utterly unreformed House of national insurance and the rest of it. Asquith was at the Lords where patronage remains vital. Dispatch Box and blind drunk. He was the Prime It would be all right if the edifice of our present Minister; it was the most important piece of legislation government system was built on a strong foundation of in his life; and he was blind drunk, and we only know mass-membership parties, but it is not. If we put all the about it because Winston Churchill and Lloyd George political parties’ members together into one great big both wrote home to their wives to tell them that he was rowing lump, we would not get to 500,000 people. It is blind drunk and had to be carried out of the debate—you sometimes compared with the membership of the Royal cannot tell from Hansard. Churchill made the interesting Society for the Protection of Birds or the National point that it was only thanks to the freemasonry of the Trust. The numbers are feeble, yet that is what it all House of Commons that the public would never know depends on. There are constituency associations on about it. That is the danger. The public think we are both sides of the House that have fewer than 200 or engaged in a freemasonic activity by protecting one even 100 members. I do not like the term “safe seats”; another. They think we protected one another in the there are seats that have been reliably electing the same expenses scandal and that we look after one another kind of MP for decades and where the new MP will be even across the party divide, and that is why I do not selected by perhaps 50, 60, 70 or 100 people. People think the initial threshold—of allowing the decision to introduced the Reform Act in the 1830s complaining be made by Members—will be good enough. 801 Recall of MPs Bill21 OCTOBER 2014 Recall of MPs Bill 802

Lady Hermon: I must take the hon. Gentleman back thing for us to do, to leave it to the public, as long as we a few minutes in his speech. I am sure I am not alone in make sure that the threshold is decent enough that it is feeling deeply offended at his reference to the judiciary. not just about people being vexatious and as long as big The judiciary, of whose independence I am enormously money cannot determine the outcome. In the end— proud, would not be swayed by the fact that someone is an MP—quite the opposite; they might be swayed to be Jackie Doyle-Price (Thurrock) (Con) rose— more severe. I am sure he would like to put on the record his confidence in the independence of the judiciary. Chris Bryant: This is my last sentence, and I am sure that people have heard quite enough from me— Chris Bryant: I am very fond of the hon. Lady, but I think she has deliberately misunderstood what I was Mr David Davis rose— saying. Judges regularly say in their summing up that they are taking into consideration the fact that because Chris Bryant: I am sorry, I did promise to give way to the person is a Member of Parliament they would lose the right hon. Gentleman. their job as well if they were to be given a custodial sentence of more than a year. It is a matter of fact that Mr Davis: At the risk of repeating the hon. Gentleman’s these matters are taken into consideration. point, I remember that we discussed that issue at the There is another problem with the Bill. Having set a time. Surely the outcome of his whole argument is that very high threshold—that the courts or MPs get to the public are wiser than we give them credit for. They decide whether somebody is subject to the recall process—it were wiser about his private life, they are wiser about then sets the very low threshold of 10% for throwing the influence of big money and they are wiser about our someone out. As I said, no Member has achieved politics. There are many Labour members in my election to this House by 50% of the total electorate, so constituency who vote against me religiously but would the idea that it would be difficult to find 10% to force never vote for a recall, because they think that I am them out of their seat, notwithstanding the remarks of doing my job. Is that not what we end up depending on? the hon. Gentleman, is to live in cloud cuckoo land. If those two thresholds are wrong, what is the right Chris Bryant: The right hon. Gentleman is absolutely one? Should we just leave it to the public, which in right. The proof of that is that after those events, in the essence is what we heard from the hon. Member for 2005 election, I increased my majority. I can only assume Richmond Park? As many Members have said, there is that that proves that it pays to advertise. a danger that the extremely wealthy could pervert the My argument is simple, really. Yes, let us have recall; process; they could spend lots of money in individual it is an important next stage in the democratic process. constituencies—or perhaps 10, 20 or 30 at a time—and We have to open up that little sliver of democracy in the subvert the proper democratic process. Arguably, big political process, because the leviathan is groaning. We money is already doing that in the British system. We need to change, but we need to ensure that we sort out need to look again at how people spend money and at the financial thing, that this cannot be done vexatiously the rules governing not just general elections, but and that we have a high enough threshold. by-elections, because the last thing I want is an American- style democracy where only the rich can ever get elected. Mr Charles Walker rose— Of course there is a danger of timid MPs, but there is that danger today, and the honest truth is: I would trust Chris Bryant: I am not going to give way to the hon. the public. I say this for a simple reason. In 2003, I got Gentleman, because I have finished. into a bit of trouble with the electorate, The Mail on Sunday and a whole load of journalists after the paper 2.51 pm revealed that I had been using a gay dating website Mr Charles Walker (Broxbourne) (Con): I put in to called Gaydar, and there were pictures and so on. The speak in this debate with righteous indignation because story was not quite as it was presented in some of the I thought I was going to be entertained to a ghastly newspapers, but be that as it may— speech from the Deputy Prime Minister, who tries to make himself look big by making this place look small Mr David Davis: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? and who persists in talking about broken politics. Unfortunately, that task fell to the hon. Member for Chris Bryant: I will once I have finished my point. Liverpool, West Derby (Stephen Twigg), who talked One Mail journalist told me they were taking bets in about our broken Parliament. We must not conflate our the office on when I would commit suicide. The campaign political parties with Parliament. Our political parties was malevolent, but it still would have been perfectly may come and go, but hopefully Parliament will remain legitimate for some of my constituents to say, “Let’s a constant. start recall.” People could legitimately have asked about I see this as an opportunity to talk about what I still my conduct. However, I also have absolute confidence respect, admire and revere about this place. We need in the electorate and the people of the Rhondda, and in champions of Parliament, and I must say that the thing the people of this country for that matter. They might that still excites me most about this place and what it have got 500, 1,000 or 1,500 to sign the recall, but The offers our constituents is accountability. Is it not Mail on Sunday did its own opinion poll and found that extraordinary? We take it for granted that a member of the vast majority of the people in this country did not the public can write to me, their Member of Parliament, think I had done anything wrong or that I should because they are concerned about a policy—an education resign. Having gone through that hell in November policy, or a transport policy, for example—and I will 2003, I say that it is perfectly legitimate, and the wise take that concern up and write to the Minister. And 803 Recall of MPs Bill21 OCTOBER 2014 Recall of MPs Bill 804 here it is: we get a response from the Secretary of State 2.56 pm for Transport, the Secretary of State for Education or, Douglas Carswell (Clacton) (UKIP): I feel so strongly on occasion, the Prime Minister. We diminish that in about recall that I recalled myself. All three established this place, but it is truly remarkable. It is not replicated parties pretended that they were in favour of recall, too, in many parts of Europe and it is scarce around the and went into the last general election offering voters a world. right of recall, but four and a half years on that has not Let us be careful before we use the Bill as an opportunity happened. They have found time to debate a referendum to attack this Parliament. Parliament is not broken. I on the alternative vote system and to talk at length have seen many colleagues in this place achieve remarkable about non-existent Lords reform. We have debated every things, not just for their constituents but for the nation subject imaginable under the sun, but somehow we have at large, and I have the utmost respect for them and the failed to pass legislation to make MPs meaningfully power this place provides them with to do those wonderful accountable to voters. And we wonder why there is such things. distrust in politics. Worse, the coalition now brings to this House measures Conor Burns: I share my hon. Friend’s reverence and so deeply flawed that they are unworthy of the name respect for the institution of Parliament, and I very recall. Let us be clear about what is being proposed. If much agree with the points he is making. However, does an MP is suspended from the House of Commons for he agree that one reason why this place has fallen into 21 days or more, a petition process is triggered. Should some disrepute is that we have given so many powers 10% of local people sign it, the MP ceases to be a away? In exercising our constituency responsibilities, we Member of this House and there is a by-election. Therein are finding that powers have been given to the European lies the first and most fundamental flaw in the Bill: it is Union and unelected quangos. This place needs to take a recall Bill without a recall mechanism. As those on the more power back. coalition Front Bench well know, recall mechanisms involve a local referendum that asks whether the sitting Mr Walker: My hon. Friend makes an interesting MP should be recalled—yes, or no. It should be a point. Institutions are only as powerful as the trust that binary choice, not a by-election. If 50% plus one agree, people have in them, and I am concerned when our there should a by-election, but it is up to local people to sovereign Parliament is overruled by supranational bodies, decide whether they should be—not 10% of local people, as that undermines faith in the institution. It is the same but a majority of local people. Where in the legislation with our courts. My hon. Friend makes a very pertinent is that mechanism? The coalition has forgotten to include point. a recall mechanism in the recall Bill. Let me also touch on a couple of other things that Worse than being a recall Bill without recall, the Bill have been said today. We are often told that we are out will have precisely the opposite effect to that which is of touch by our constituents, but in reality that is code intended. It is a proposal that is supposed to make MPs for, “You disagree with my point of view.” I understand more accountable to voters that leaves the trigger firmly that, but I am not out of touch with my constituents. in the hands of Westminster grandees. A measure designed They might not like me and they might not like what I to make MPs answer outwards to the electorate ends up stand for, but every morning I travel in from my constituency strengthening the power of Whips. As the Bill is drafted, and every evening I go back. I am pleased to meet my MPs and Whips, not voters, will sit in judgment on constituents on the platform and, in the main, they errant MPs. It is an implausible Bill from an implausible pretend to be pleased to meet me. I spend numerous Front Bench with an implausible record on political reform. weekends out and about in my community, not just having surgeries but going to the shops—I am an ordinary Mike Thornton (Eastleigh) (LD): If there was a way Member of Parliament. Let us take all of this with a to put more power back in the hands of the electorate pinch of salt and let us not self-flagellate constantly to decide whether an MP should be recalled, although about our standing and the standing of Parliament. not necessarily without any grounds whatsoever, would I shall not detain the House much longer, but let me the hon. Gentleman feel that that was a better way of just make a point that I touched on in an intervention. proceeding? In 2010, the Bill that became the Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011 was introduced in this place. I did not support Douglas Carswell: I certainly would. My hon. Friend it and, in reality, it made it much more difficult for us as the Member for Richmond Park (Zac Goldsmith) is Members of Parliament to recall the Government. I going to table some excellent amendments, which I will found that extraordinary, and I find it even more do everything I can to support. That will ensure that we extraordinary now that a recall Bill is being promoted have a recall Bill worthy of the name and of the promise by those on the Front Bench that will, in essence, made to voters. further entrench the power of the Executive as opposed The Deputy Prime Minister has expressed his concern to the interests of Back Benchers. that real recall might leave MPs subject to partisan I have some concerns. I accept that the Minister is pressure and sectional interests, yet by leaving it to here with good intentions, but there are genuine concerns Westminster insiders to decide who gets to face a by-election, about the Government’s proposals, as there are about MPs are going to be vulnerable to precisely the sectional the proposals made by my hon. Friend the Member for interests from which they most need protection—the Richmond Park (Zac Goldsmith). I hope that we can party Whips. reach a solution that carries the confidence of this I would like hon. Members to cast their minds back House and of our constituents. Let us not forget that we to the previous Member who represented Norwich all serve in a wonderful Parliament and one that many North—Dr Ian Gibson. I mean no disrespect to the would like to replicate around the world. current MP, my hon. Friend the Member for Norwich 805 Recall of MPs Bill21 OCTOBER 2014 Recall of MPs Bill 806

[Douglas Carswell] Douglas Carswell: I am a little surprised that my hon. Friend should recoil from the idea that voters might North (Chloe Smith), when I say that I have known Ian vote against Members on policy grounds. That is the Gibson for over 20 years and I know what a good and whole point of us, is it not? Surely it is entirely legitimate decent man he is. More to the point, I know that his for people to vote politicians out of office if they do not constituents in Norwich, a city I know well, knew what reflect their policy priorities. This idea that we can a good and decent man he is, yet he was thrown to the somehow separate the two—so that voters can pass wolves by the Whips. At the height of the expenses judgment on us for our conduct but not our policy scandal, after a couple of awkward headlines, he was priorities—is absurd and ridiculous. Charles I would have judged by his party Whips to be guilty. Perhaps his real agreed with my hon. Friend. I think it is a false distinction, guilt lay in the fact that he failed to sign someone’s which does not give the voters the respect they deserve. nomination papers; I do not know. However, had there Let us ponder for a second something that we are been a proper recall mechanism in place, I am absolutely used to in this country—the idea of trial by jury. We certain that Ian Gibson would have been exonerated by trust 12 lay people to pass a judgment and to determine those who knew him best—Norwich voters. As MPs, we the guilt or otherwise of someone accused of wrongdoing. should have nothing to fear from recall. We trust those jurors to decide not whether they agree with the law that was allegedly broken, but whether the Richard Drax: I do not want to get personal about defendant has broken the law. We trust them to exercise other Members of Parliament, as I do not think it good judgment. If we have a right of recall, I think we appropriate that we should in this place. On the hon. can trust that jury of 70,000 or 80,000 people to exercise Gentleman’s very point, as I said earlier, if someone good judgment, too. commits an offence, such as those during the expenses scandal, it is a matter of honour for the individuals in Mr Nigel Evans (Ribble Valley) (Con): Speaking as this House. An hon. Member should resign their seat if someone who recently faced a jury, may I say how such an offence is committed. There is no need for laws, grateful I was for their independence of mind and the recalls or anything else to do the job for us. verdict they gave? Like the hon. Gentleman, I have no fear of the electorate. Although I will support the Bill, I Douglas Carswell: The point I was illustrating is that want to see it go into Committee and to find ways to MPs often look at recall, but recoil from it because they make it far more liberal so that the electors get the fear it will somehow make them vulnerable. I would opportunity, if they so wish, to decide to remove a argue that MPs who do their job properly, stick to their Member of Parliament at some time. The important promises and do their best by their constituents will point is to get this Bill through tonight, get it into find that their hand is strengthened by recall. It should Committee and see what improvements can be made. I in fact give them greater confidence to do their job in understand that the Prime Minister says that he believes the knowledge that, if there is a question mark over this legislation can be improved. whether they stay here, those who trust them the most will make the final decision. Douglas Carswell: I am grateful for that powerful There has been some suggestion that real recall would point. If I thought that this measure would allow lynch lead to vexatious attempts to remove MPs. Let us think mob justice, I would be against it, but I trust the about that for a second. This country has had a recall judgment of the people in aggregate. Just as we can vote—we do not call it that, but that is what it was. In trust a jury to decide and sometimes exercise perhaps 1997, the Liberal Democrats won the Winchester seat at more common sense than public prosecutors, so we can the election. The Conservatives claimed that the Lib trust the electorate in aggregate to make decisions about Dems had done so by error and that they had been the conduct of Members. If we proceed with this, I cheated of victory because they had lost by a mere two think we will discover that the voters are a pretty liberal votes, and that that was somehow wrong. They got a bunch and a pretty forgiving bunch. I generally think judicially sanctioned recall, but it was seen by local that if we trust remote, unaccountable officials and people for what it was—a vexatious attempt by bad grandees in Westminster, we are likely to get worse losers to overturn the democratic will of the people. decisions than if we trusted the voters in aggregate. If What happened? Having initially lost by two, the we can improve the proposals by widening the body of Conservatives went on to lose by more than 20,000. I people who decide, so much the better. thus emphasise that we have nothing to fear from vexatious attempts at recall. Mike Thornton: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his forbearance. He makes a good point about jurors, but Mr Henry Bellingham (North West Norfolk) (Con): I before something gets to the jury, it has to be established have been following the hon. Gentleman’s arguments whether there is a prima facie case to answer. The jury is over a long time. In many ways, he talks a great deal of thus deciding on a case that has already had some legs sense. Does he agree, however, that we have to draw a to go before the judge and jury in the first place. distinction between failure of conduct and professional Following the hon. Gentleman’s reasoning to a logical judgment. For example, I have been running a campaign conclusion, perhaps there should be some way of judging on incinerators in my constituency. Some 65,000 a case before it came before the public through the constituents voted no. I was actually on their side, but recall petition. had I been against them, their recourse would have been to kick me out at the next election. Does the hon. Douglas Carswell: That strengthens my point Gentleman agree that if I had gone against 65,000 people considerably. Until the 1930s, this country had grand in my constituency, I would have been vulnerable to a juries to determine whether there was a prima facie recall Bill that is cast too widely? case. If that had happened, we would not have had the 807 Recall of MPs Bill21 OCTOBER 2014 Recall of MPs Bill 808 number of cases being brought to court when common That means that MPs answer to other MPs. The great sense would have dictated that they should never have destructive mechanism in our democracy, the Whips been brought to court. If we have grand juries and trust Office, is all-powerful. the people, we get better decisions in the courts. If we trust a wider body of people to determine whether or Mr Charles Walker: The hon. Gentleman said that not an MP should remain, we get better judgments and recall would end safe seat syndrome. How will it do more effective recall proposals. Wherever more people that? are included in a decision-making process, we generally get better decisions. Douglas Carswell: At present, the career trajectories of MPs in safe seats are determined by how obsequious Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): Further to the hon. they are to Ministers, and on whether or not the Whips Gentleman’s point about grand juries, does he accept think highly of them and give them promotion. If a that the last group of people who should act as a grand Member is vulnerable to a recall election—if he is jury in relation to recall would be any Committee of vulnerable to the views of the voters—he may start to this House? face outward to the voters. Even if he is in a safe seat, he will know that he can lose his position if he breaks his Douglas Carswell: I absolutely agree. There are many promises and does not do what he said he was going to good and decent Members who would never be given as do. Recall would mean that instead of facing inward fair a hearing by a Committee of grandees—people and chasing favour with the Whips, MPs would become who spend their careers chasing the Whips’ baubles—as outward-facing, and I think that that would revive and they would if they trusted the views of the voters. After reinvigorate our democracy. all, it is the voters who know us best. If the majority of our constituents decide in a vote that, frankly, they Mr MacNeil: Is not the ultimate battering ram against want us recalled, there is no shame in that. We are “safe seat syndrome”, as it has been described this clearly in the wrong job; we should go and do something afternoon, not a recall Bill but the single transferable else. The voters would be better off if we did; we would vote system that we have seen in operation in, for be better off and so would democracy. instance, the Republic of Ireland? Douglas Carswell: I would rather not get into the Zac Goldsmith: It is worth pointing out the Chairman subject of electoral reform, although my views on it of the Standards and Privileges Committee has already were not generally mainstream in my old party, and I said on the record that he does not want this extra duty am open to ideas and suggestions. Recall would be a of this extra ballot. He recognises, as does everyone else, key part of reviving our democracy. that if we want to exert pressure and to influence an outcome, it is much easier to do so with a fallible group Mark Field: I think that the hon. Gentleman is being of 10 people than it is with 70,000 constituents. rather unkind about “safe seat syndrome”, which has been the focus of much of his attention. My own seat Douglas Carswell: Absolutely. I would ask people —the seat that I currently occupy—has been Conservative again to apply the Ian Gibson test. If the Standards and for an unbroken period since 1868. However, I can Privileges Committee had been left to make the key assure the hon. Gentleman—and, perhaps rather more decision in those heated and fevered moments during importantly, my 73,000 constituents—that I work extremely the MPs’ expenses scandal, would it not have been hard. I treat my seat like a marginal, and I think that the under intense media pressure to make the wrong choice same applies to many MPs. It is an attitude of mind. It by that good and decent Member of Parliament? I may be entirely irrational, given all the hard work that think it would have been. It is wrong for the Standards must be done in the run-up to an election, but I think and Privileges Committee to have this role. It is right, if that many MPs, whether or not they have safe seats, we want more lay members to be involved, for us not to take a very diligent approach to their constituency work. seek to increase the number of lay members on the Standards and Privileges Committee, but to trust the Douglas Carswell: My hon. Friend has made my voters. It puzzles me that people still struggle with point for me, rather eloquently. There are very good and the idea that the voters should decide whether or not to decent people who come into Parliament with good and trigger the process, for they are the ultimate jury. honourable intentions, but why is it so often the case I shall support the Bill this evening. I shall do so that those who enter this place with good and honourable because I am confident that it can be amended and intentions do not—in the public’s eyes, at any rate—do made meaningful, and confident that many of the what it was hoped that they would do? I submit that it is amendments that will be tabled by my hon. Friend the because they end up facing inward. They come here, Member for Richmond Park will be successful. Unless and then they face what other MPs in Westminster that happens, this recall measure will remain a sham, a determine should be their priorities. That is the problem. fix, a pretence of change so that Westminster can stay That explains why so many good and decent people the same. Proper recall will end safe seat syndrome, come here and end up not achieving what their constituents which is what has really hamstrung our democracy. In hoped for. four of the past five elections, fewer than one in 10 seats I think that, by giving voters the power to sack MPs, have changed hands. Even at the time of the 1997 great recall will break open cartel politics. I am somewhat Labour landslide, only three in 10 changed hands. In bemused when some Members seem appalled at the other words, seven out of 10 seats are safe seats. There is very notion that the public might actually vote out of almost a zero chance of those Members losing their office an MP with whom they disagreed over policy—shock, seats unless they fall foul of the Whips. They are fiefdoms. horror. Surely that is the whole point of politics. 809 Recall of MPs Bill21 OCTOBER 2014 Recall of MPs Bill 810

[Douglas Carswell] someone who was no friend of mine and, indeed, no friend of almost anyone in the House: Ken Livingstone. The Minister attacked the very idea of a politically About a decade ago, he received income from a series of motivated recall, but surely “politically motivated” is speaking engagements. He went to the Registrar of what we are supposed to be in this Chamber. I thought Members’ Financial Interests and asked how he should that that was the essence of politics. declare that income, and he then declared it in the way I look forward to voting for the Bill, and to supporting the Registrar recommended. Later, someone found out the amendments that will make it meaningful. how much money he had made. I think that it was more than £100,000, but in any case it was a lot of money. He 3.14 pm was then suddenly hauled before the Standards and Privileges Committee, and forced to make an apology Mr David Davis (Haltemprice and Howden) (Con): I here in the Chamber. Why? He was an outsider. He was think that 10 years ago I would have opposed the Bill, a maverick. He had no friends in the House, or at least because I would have taken the conventional view that no friends in the parties in the House. His was not the has been expressed by one or two Government Members only case of that kind—I could have picked a number of today. The last decade, however, has led me to believe others—but that was not justice, it was not democracy, that the chasm that has grown between the political and it would not improve this House to formalise such a classes and the ordinary voters—the population of the process by means of the mechanism with which the country—has become too wide. Some of that has, of Minister has presented us today. course, been due to the expenses crisis, but it is by no Such a system could be made to work only if we means either the only or the first reason. As my hon. replaced the standards and privileges process with a Friend the Member for Richmond Park (Zac Goldsmith) judicial process. I do not think that the House really pointed out, the current trend has been ongoing for a wants to introduce the law into its mechanisms, but if it long time, but I believe that it is now approaching wants to adopt a test it will have to be a judicial test. I a crisis point. suspect that, if I were ever in front of the Standards and I have therefore concluded that a recall Bill is necessary, Privileges Committee, I would be looking for a judicial and, like the hon. Member for Clacton (Douglas Carswell), remedy immediately. So this is not a recall Bill as it I shall vote for this Bill, although I must add that I do stands; it is a parliamentary expulsion Bill, and we not view it as a recall Bill. If anything, it is a parliamentary should understand that. expulsion Bill, because it makes it easy for the establishment I support the proposals made by my hon. Friend the of the House to expel someone from the House. Let us Member for Richmond Park (Zac Goldsmith), who has imagine the circumstances. A Member is found wanting been a principled campaigner for these reforms for by his peers in the Standards and Privileges Committee—no some time. I shall not take up much more of the doubt amid a vast hue and cry from a number of House’s time, but I want to remind hon. Members of tabloid and red-top newspapers—and his constituents the differences involved. The Government’s proposal are then told “If 10% of you vote in the referendum, would take either a criminal mechanism or the House’s this man will go.” No matter that 90% of them might judgment and turn it into a one-off, 10% referendum. want him to stay; in those torrid circumstances, only Then it would be over. My hon. Friend’s proposal 10% need to vote, and he will be expelled. I do not think would have a 5% first threshold to start the process. that anyone who was criticised and set up in that way That would trigger the timetable, and a 20% threshold would survive the process, or would be reselected by his would follow. In my constituency, that would equate to party thereafter. He might stand on his own account just short of 15,000 voters. I have never seen a campaign like Dick Taverne, like the hon. Member for Clacton, or in my constituency get 15,000 voters to go out voluntarily indeed like me, but he would not survive the normal and put their name on a petition. political process. This is, as I have said, a mechanism for political expulsion. Richard Drax: I am listening carefully to my right I might find that tolerable if our mechanisms in the hon. Friend. If, as a result of such a referendum, a House met any sort of judicial test, but, having been political scalp were gained and a seat lost, does my right here for some 25 years, I suggest Members conduct an hon. Friend agree that supporters of an opposing party experiment. I say this with no ill reflection on the people would get out and vote, as they would at a general who serve on and chair the Standards and Privileges election? I accept that the numbers would be down, but Committee. I suggest that Members make a list of the there could still be significant numbers voting. The names of all who have been ruled against by the Committee, numbers that he is talking about would certainly be separate them into two columns consisting of Front possible if a seat could be gained in that way. Benchers and Back Benchers—I do not suggest that the two columns should consist of those who are within Mr Davis: This point has been made a number of the gilded circle and those who are the mavericks—and times, particularly by the hon. Member for Rhondda compare the treatments of people who have committed (Chris Bryant)but also by others. My hon. Friend is the same crime. They will then find two classes of presuming that his constituents would vote on the basis justice. We do not deliver justice in this House; we of a simple political judgment, according to whether deliver an opinion of the establishment of the House, they wanted a Labour Government, a Tory Government, and that is why the public are not wrong to view our a Liberal Government or even a UKIP Government, systems as intolerable. but I do not believe that our constituents behave like Let me give one example. I shall not give the examples that. I believe that they behave in a moral way and make of those who have been let off, because that might be judgments about us. I have discussed this matter with mean in the circumstances, but I will give an example of my constituents. Many of those who have never voted someone who, in my view, was very badly treated. It was for me in my 20-odd years in the constituency would 811 Recall of MPs Bill21 OCTOBER 2014 Recall of MPs Bill 812 not vote to remove me on that basis. They would not party’s figures have not increased much, if at all, in make such a judgment on a political basis. They would Scotland, although they are above those of the Labour recognise that this was a quasi-judicial judgment. That party. It is not really much of a renaissance at all. is why we are better off trusting the public than trusting However, I do not want to be distracted by the political the hierarchy in this House. ill weather for Labour and the Conservatives north of the border, because that is not the matter before the Mike Thornton: Much of what the right hon. Gentleman House this afternoon. says about our constituents is true. However, he is I hope that there is much agreement on the idea of a perhaps slightly out of date in regard to the collecting recall Bill, but the disagreement lies in whether we of signatures. We have seen 38 Degrees inundating us should have an open recall Bill or the more prescribed with e-mails, and with modern technology it would not recall Bill that the Government propose. be as difficult as it used to be to get8 a great number of I want to say quite a bit about the Government’s signatures. attitude and approach to the Bill. The right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis) was absolutely Mr Davis: The hon. Gentleman misses the point that right to say that among the problems with the Government’s my hon. Friend the Member for Richmond Park made. Bill are its reliance on the Standards and Privileges This would involve not an electronic collection but a Committee and the justice of that Committee. The right physical collection of votes. People would have to get hon. Gentleman told us that he had looked into that out and go down to their town hall or their polling matter, and it did not surprise me that there was such a station. I think we have nominated four locations for justice differential between those inside the gilded circle any given constituency. We thought about this very and those outwith it. point; indeed, it is one of the things we crowd-tested with 40,000 people. They recognised, as did members of The proposal for a 10% threshold is dangerous. A 38 Degrees, that an electronic vote would be the wrong safer mechanism for recall would involve a 5% threshold, way to carry out this process. It has to be a process in followed by 20% and then a simple majority in a which people exercise a moral judgment and overcome referendum. This process should be an extension of a physical hurdle by going down to one of those locations democracy and, if we get to that point, there should be and doing something about it. Again, this shows that a secret ballot—or an Australian ballot, as it was originally we are better off trusting our own constituents. called. The prescribed route also carries the danger that it mentions trigger conditions, such as a jailing. Mentioning There was much argument in Committee about the the conditions would make a recall more likely because figure of 20%. Some people talked about 25%; others it would light up the minds of those in journalistic talked about less. The simple truth is that 20% is pretty circles, who would start to crank up the machinery that much the norm internationally. Most, if not all, other could lead to what history suggests might sometimes be countries exercising this mechanism do not experience the wrong steps being taken. many vexatious actions. The hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones)made legitimate points about the I am thinking in particular of Terry Fields, who was role of big money in this exercise, but only a Californian jailed for 60 days in 1991 and was probably released to a governor has been replaced throughout the century in hero’s welcome, as indeed was Tommy Sheridan in which this mechanism has been in place in America, Scotland, although he was not an elected politician despite the fact that many people would have been when he was also jailed for non-payment of the poll tax. vehemently opposed by big corporate interests. In any The hon. Member for Walsall North (Mr Winnick) event, we can deal with that through the regulations and made an important point about the Cyprus situation in laws that will surround this Bill when we make it an Act the 1950s. He suggested that Members should be given of Parliament. a degree of latitude and have the freedom to speak their minds, because sometimes an uncomfortable truth is a This is an incredibly important Bill, but the Government great servant to us all. have got it quite materially wrong. This is one of those rare occasions on which it is for the House of Commons The open route would allow us more easily to ignore to make a judgment that will decide our own future. some of the many reasons that the establishment might see as triggers for a recall, and allow us to take a more open approach. As the right hon. Member for 3.24 pm Birkenhead (Mr Field) said in an intervention on the Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) opening speech, it should be no longer MPs who define (SNP): Mention has been made today of the disengagement their own behaviour, but society at large. The open with politics in the wider context, but it might be good method allows the recall mechanism to be a dynamic news for the hon. Member for Broxbourne (Mr Walker) process that takes account of circumstances. Some that politics in Scotland is now going through a veritable might feel that lying to the country or to Parliament purple patch—a renaissance, even—and that we have to take the nation to war might reasonably be open to perhaps the most engaged and politically literate electorate recall but that would not be included in legislation by in the whole of Europe. the Government. The overarching point is that recall should be a Mr Charles Walker: Am I right in thinking that the sanction of last resort. It should not be used much, and even the Conservative party is having a renaissance in hopefully it will not be used much—it should be little Scotland? needed and little used—but it is a sanction that should be available. At the stage we are at now in our ever-evolving Mr MacNeil: The hon. Gentleman might be on to democratic countries—evolving due to social media, something, but I think that it might have to be called a certainly—the proposals before us would provide another relative renaissance. Polls have shown that the Conservative arm of participatory democracy. 813 Recall of MPs Bill21 OCTOBER 2014 Recall of MPs Bill 814

[Mr MacNeil] One of the most concerning aspects of the recall measures before us is the Government’s wording of Whoever instigates a recall and whatever mechanism clause 1(3), which mentions an MP who triggers it, it should have a reasonable chance of success. “has, after becoming an MP, been convicted in the United Kingdom I mentioned the example of Terry Fields. He would of an offence and sentenced or ordered to be imprisoned or detained”. have been re-elected anyway, and to use the recall The word “detained” leaves us with quite a difficult mechanism against an MP who is clearly going to come situation. According to House of Commons notes, back with a thumping majority would be an abuse. It during this Parliament at least four sitting MPs have should have a real chance of succeeding in removing the been detained by the police but not prosecuted. I will MP.As has been said, perhaps an MP removal mechanism not name them because they do not deserve that. The is what it is. Therefore, and perhaps with the fear of the detaining and imprisoning of people could, under the vexatious recall in mind as well, we might consider Government’s mechanisms, enable 10% to push for a requiring a bond or deposit—some sum so that those by-election, and that would be wrong. engaged in this have to put some money where their We must, I think, conduct a thorough experiment. mouths are, as do those who engage in elections or Not many of us would like to imagine that we live in a by-elections, in order for them genuinely to demonstrate country in which we have politically motivated arrests to the wider public that this is not a whim. and people being detained because of mistaken identity— Mr Kevan Jones: I have some sympathy with what the the measure does not even allow for the possibility of hon. Gentleman says, but that would not stop a wealthy mistaken identity. Let us imagine that the detention was individual. It would not stop the hon. Member for heavy-handed and wrong. Imagine too that the system Richmond Park (Zac Goldsmith), for example, as he was taken as a gold standard and used in other places. could obviously afford to lose his deposit, and in the We could have a situation in which different standards United States it did not stop people such as the Koch in a different time and place would allow somebody to brothers, who put £2 million into the Colorado recall of be detained, which could lead to a 10% trigger to an the state Senators who introduced gun control. I sympathise election, and that could be taken as a benchmark across with what the hon. Gentleman is saying, but I am not the world. It is difficult to see how people could withstand sure this would stop big business and big interests. the pressure of that.

Mr MacNeil: The hon. Gentleman might be correct Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab): in some of that, but we do live in an imperfect world. I hope that the Minister will intervene on this matter. All I would say to him is that this removes many of the My understanding is that detention is not being held imperfections and is an improvement on the current without bail, but is an English law term. Perhaps the situation. Minister could clarify that situation at some point later in the debate. Zac Goldsmith: The hon. Gentleman is making a brilliant speech, and I agree with I think everything he Mr MacNeil: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for has just said. that, and there should be absolutely no ambiguity here. The fact is that this is a point of debate. Therefore, The points about moneyed interests are arguments whether he is right, I am right or the truth lies somewhere against all elections, not just recalls. It would be possible in between does not matter. The point is that there is for the Koch brothers to influence any election, not just some ambiguity in the words, and it should not be there. recalls. That is another problem we need to address: If that is the situation, it leaves a process that is open to there are arguments to be had about regulating the abuse. Although we would all like to think that we live process so that that cannot happen. These arguments in a country that follows the rules of fair play, a country are not about recall; they are about democracy. that adopts this system might not. Standards might change here over time. By-elections with a biased national Mr MacNeil: I think there is a debate going on media are a lot more plentiful than we would imagine. around me here about the influence of money in politics, The result could be quite different and justice—the and hopefully we are not quite in the same scenario as point of this is justice—would not be seen to be done. the United States of America in that respect, although it would be wrong to say that the influence of money is Recall has to be real, in the hands of the people and negligible in politics at whatever level, including general open to the circumstances of the society in which it elections, by-elections or, perhaps, recall elections. operates. As I have said, there will be circumstances that we cannot possibly imagine today.I have already mentioned Some Members have argued that a general election is the taking of a country to war, and there will be other a form of recall, but I dispute that. Should a Member such situations. If the Government do not listen to our face recall, they will be facing recall on one point, with amendments, will they, at the very least, clarify what the eyes of the country, and particularly of their they mean by “detain”. Surely, too, they must raise the constituency, on the cause of the recall. In a general barrier of 10%. There is better thinking in front of them. election Members come face to face with other candidates, I commend the hon. Member for Richmond Park (Zac as they would in a recall election, but the issues of the Goldsmith) for his work, and I agree with just about all day can sweep a candidate into winning a seat. We have of his amendments bar one, which we will discuss later. often seen over the last number of elections that some candidates have won to their own surprise; it is clearly 3.37 pm not the candidate who has been elected personally, but instead it is support for their party or the issue of the Mark Field (Cities of London and Westminster) (Con): day that has taken them to victory. Therefore a by-election Although I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for or general election is not a recall election. Broxbourne (Mr Walker) that there has been too much 815 Recall of MPs Bill21 OCTOBER 2014 Recall of MPs Bill 816 self-flagellation as part and parcel of the process that achieve that if the hon. Gentleman were to table one. I has led towards this Bill, we cannot dispute that a lot of respect his decision and that of the erstwhile Member the concerns that underline these measures are to do for Rochester and Strood to put their money where with trust—I am talking specifically about trust in their mouth is and let their electors determine their the political and parliamentary process. The public future. Why should voters be deprived of the opportunity appetite for parliamentary recall was turbo-charged by to hold to account an MP who switches parties but is the reputationally ruinous expenses scandal that broke unwilling to resign? Surely that should be a prima facie in 2009. That brought to public attention the decades-long reason for recall. scandal of a self-regulated system in which secrecy and I fear, however, that the Minister has instead boiled opaqueness by the political establishment were the down the grounds of recall to just two small conditions, watchwords. That was then compounded by the calamitous the first of which applies to criminal convictions and rearguard attempts by the parliamentary great and good will operate along similar lines that already exist for to use the courts to prevent the publication of details expulsion from the House. However, the second condition, of dubious expenditure claims of public money—a which applies if the Standards Committee imposes a process that was sensationally broken open by The suspension from the House of 21 or more sitting days, is Daily Telegraph. much too open to party managers’ political manipulation. Slowly but surely this place has been dragged into Let us not be naive about the conduct of party leaderships playing catch-up. Ever since the expenses scandal, this and the Whips Offices. They will, as they have always House has paid lip service to the importance of restoring done, try to manipulate such a process to protect or public confidence in the political process. A central part condemn as they see fit. After all, that is what party of that has been the public insistence for genuinely managers do, and that is precisely why they must have independent regulation. Yet the centrepiece of this Bill no part whatsoever in the recall process. The overriding flies in the face of giving our voters, rather than political need to restore public trust is the reason why they insiders, the authority to drive recall. should have no opportunity to interfere with the recall I regret that the coalition’s revolutionary intentions, process. as set out in May 2010, have been so watered down. The Standards Committee is still appointed, rather than elected by the House as a whole, so while its Douglas Carswell: Does the hon. Gentleman have members are often able and diligent, that has the any confidence in his party leadership’s record on political consequence that emollient and obedient MPs may be reform? selected as its members, especially if a helpful outcome to a sensitive case is desired. As we all know, if cases Mark Field: That is a rather unfair question. It was come before that Committee, the House is able to the hon. Gentleman’s party leadership until a few weeks impose penalties ranging from expulsion and suspension, ago. I have some confidence—perhaps hope springs to an order to repay moneys, when appropriate. It is all eternal—that there will be other elements of reform too easy to see how favoured sons and daughters—errant going through. I am afraid that the constitutional record Ministers perhaps—might be made subject to stringent of the coalition Government has been lamentable in the repayment conditions, but have imposed on them a way that it has worked out. suspension that is lenient enough not to trigger the As hon. Members have said, it is entirely understandable second recall condition. I agreed with much of what my that the Government have tried to find a mechanism to right hon. Friend the Member for Haltemprice and weed out trivial or vexatious complaints. For sure, there Howden (Mr Davis) said about that. will be abject disagreement on purely partisan political I fear that this is not a wild academic concern. Let us issues, as well as furious disagreements between an consider some of the matters that have recently come elector and his or her parliamentary representative, but before the Parliamentary Commissioner for Standards that should never trigger the recall process. and the Standards Committee, and then the House. For As I am now disagreeing with the hon. Member for example, two former Cabinet Ministers were both ordered Clacton (Douglas Carswell)—my friend, but my former to repay more than £40,000 in inappropriately claimed hon. Friend—I should congratulate him on his recent second-home expenses by the commissioner. Following re-election. I know that he pays the closest possible long and protracted inquiries, no doubt aided and attention to these issues. Although we profoundly disagree abetted by an unhealthy interest from party managers, about the desirability of the United Kingdom’s membership they were subject to a sanction that would not have of the European Union and about immigration policy—I triggered recall, even though the strength of public think it is in the national interest that we have a calm opinion meant that they both had to resign their ministerial and rational debate, rather than one that plays to members office. of his current party—we were, as instinctive democrats, By contrast, in the past year two independent-minded in the same Lobby for the November 2011 referendum Back Benchers—Patrick Mercer and Denis MacShane— vote and with regard to House of Lords reform, which have resigned from the House after being suspended for would have brought about an elected second Chamber. long terms, although neither had made similarly substantial Our views are similarly aligned on the importance of personal financial gain requiring the repayment of public sound money and the need for a much more urgent money. I do not wish to draw entirely direct comparisons emphasis on deficit reduction than seems acceptable to between those sets of cases. I simply ask the House to Britain’s political elite. reflect on the fact that the mere perception that pressure More importantly, in this era of established political might be brought to bear to favour MPs closer to party parties being set out in law, surely an elected representative’s leaderships, or indeed to militate against those regarded decision to switch political parties should automatically as more easily expendable, will only further undermine trigger a recall. I would support an amendment to public confidence in this new process. 817 Recall of MPs Bill21 OCTOBER 2014 Recall of MPs Bill 818

[Mark Field] There is a brilliant example from my own constituency —not me, I rush to point out. My distinguished predecessor, I very much agree with many of the sentiments Lena Jeger, was the Member for Holborn and St Pancras expressed by my hon. Friend the Member for Richmond South, which was an overwhelmingly Roman Catholic Park (Zac Goldsmith) and look forward to these issues constituency in the 1960s. Lena Jeger was an advocate being debated at length in Committee. I do agree with of abortion law reform. She was one of the sponsors of the Minister that there is an increasingly strong case for David Steel’s Bill that became the Abortion Act 1967. It a mechanism to allow constituents to recall their MP.In would have been a simple matter for opponents of what my view, there is an almost unanswerable case that we she was advocating to get together 10% or 20% of will have to have such a Bill. I am only sad to conclude people to oppose what she was doing. that this Bill fails to rise to the occasion. Douglas Carswell indicated dissent. 3.45 pm Frank Dobson: It is no good people who do not agree Frank Dobson (Holborn and St Pancras) (Lab): It is with me shaking their heads, because I am sure that is customary to begin a speech by declaring an interest, the truth. but in this case I can declare a disinterest, as I am not standing at the next general election. Also, so far as I Zac Goldsmith: The example that the hon. Gentleman know, in the year of the great expenses scandal my gives is an argument for recall. The Member of Parliament expenses were the lowest of any Member of Parliament. he describes, whose views were apparently at odds with However, I am firmly opposed to the Bill, and not those in her constituency, was nevertheless elected seven because it does not go far enough, as the hon. Member times in seven general elections despite holding those for Richmond Park (Zac Goldsmith) argues, but because views. Youcan trust your constituents, and that is a case it proposes recalls at all. in point. I was disturbed to hear the Minister describe the Bill as a first step. In my view it is the first step in a bit of Frank Dobson: Yes, but she would have been put to all fancy dancing at the top of what could turn out to be a the bother and expense of fighting for her seat in the very slippery slope heading in the direction of the middle of a parliamentary— things advocated by the hon. Member for Richmond Park. The proposition from the recall enthusiasts is that Zac Goldsmith: That is the idea. there should be provision so that MPs can be sacked between general elections—to quote the hon. Member Frank Dobson: I know that is the idea, and that is for Richmond Park— what is wrong with it. That is why it is a stupid idea. “for whatever reason if the majority have lost confidence in This is intended to punish certain individuals, but it them”. would have the effect of persuading a lot of other To say that that would be open to abuse by vested people who were feeling a bit edgy about things not to interests would be a grotesque understatement. go ahead and stick to their principles because they I believe that the introduction of a recall mechanism might be set upon. That would not necessarily be done along the lines outlined by the enthusiasts would have by an innocent group of individual electors—it could proved a great hindrance to social progress in this be the product of a very lengthy campaign by nasty country, and to a lot of the changes that have led to our people in the news media or, these days, some squalid, society becoming more decent. I point out that things awful campaign in the social media, which built up over become a consensus; they do not start off as such. A lot a long period of time and was almost impossible for an of the things that we now enjoy started off as very individual Member of Parliament to resist. We need to unpopular ideas, and we should do nothing that restricts be very careful about that. MPs from taking up unpopular ideas that they believe A lot of the things we enjoy today were advocated to be right. and supported by Lena Jeger and people like her, in the Many of the things that I now value in our society, as face of many objections. They include a lot of stuff to I hope do many other Members, were seen as shocking do with women’s rights, equal pay, family planning, when they were first launched by fearless MPs. They outlawing racial discrimination, being in favour of knew that their ideas were unpopular and would be abolishing capital punishment, being in favour of gay seen as shocking, and the response from much of the rights, and being in favour of in vitro fertilisation. More news media and many people in here was not just an recently, people might have been subject to recall, depending expression of opposition to their views, but personal on their constituency, for voting for or against the vilification and smears. hunting ban—or, even more recently, voting for or against same-sex marriage. I can see some advantages in Douglas Carswell: My right hon. Friend is arguing the idea of recall for such reasons. No doubt the Liberal against allowing people to decide who their representatives Democrats would not have been very keen on innumerable are on the grounds that occasionally representatives recalls being launched when they went back on their might hold views that do not accord with the voters. promise not to increase student fees, and nearly every Surely we should trust the voters, not to agree with Tory and Lib Dem MP probably would not have fancied everything a representative says, but to respect a a recall over the NHS reforms. Even with those two representative for being frank and honest with them. attractive features, however, I do not support the proposition of recall. Frank Dobson: That is what I believe in. I do not When I make my position clear to my constituents, as believe that introducing a recall system will further that I always try to do, they say, “How would you deal with degree of independence. the expenses fiddlers?” All I say is, “All the spectacular 819 Recall of MPs Bill21 OCTOBER 2014 Recall of MPs Bill 820 ones disappeared at the general election, so the system the round by my electorate. However, a recall system got ’em in the end.” As we know from the saying usually would not look at things in the round, but at a specific ascribed to Talleyrand, revenge is a dish best enjoyed and particular issue. cold. Even in an era of instant gratification, waiting for I have mentioned my distinguished predecessor, Lena a general election should prove okay. Jeger. In 1974, I canvassed on her behalf. I called on a I absolutely accept that the Government Bill is a very family I had got rehoused into a really rather nice flat, shabby coalition compromise. There have been many and the mother came to the door. They were definitely a objections to the triggers relating to a Member being Roman Catholic family. All the five daughters had the jailed. Another trigger is misconduct that results in a vote, as did the dad, so with the mum that made seven Member being suspended for 21 days or more. Let us votes. People were not very sure about the likely outcome get this clear: this proposal is not about a Member of the general election—I cannot remember which it being suspended for 21 days or more; it is about either was of the two general elections in 1974—and the being suspended for a short period or being sentenced mother said, “We want Mrs Jeger to support tightening to recall. It is not about the amount of time for which a up the abortion law.” I thought for a minute about Member might reasonably be suspended. I think that whether to say, “Oh, she’ll do it.” Then I thought, “No. that could result in a lot of scandal—real or invented—being If she was here, she would tell the truth.” I therefore stirred up by the news media or social media. We all said, “No, I don’t think she will. She was one of the have to agree that there would be nothing objective or sponsors of what is now the law.” The mum said, “I’m quasi-judicial about that process. It might be reasonably sorry, but I don’t think we’ll be able to vote for her.” On like going before the Standards Committee, but the election day, I happened to pass their polling station decision would be taken on the Floor of the House. when all seven of them came out, and called, “Frank, Frank”. I went across the road, and they said, “It’s all “Objective” and “quasi-judicial” are not terms I would right. We’ve voted for Mrs Jeger because you told us the usually apply to a debate on that sort of thing. People truth.” Telling the truth, and being judged at general might say that I am saying that the process would be a elections in the round for what we do, is what should kangaroo court, but that is an insult to kangaroos. The continue. decision would, generally speaking, be party politically motivated. As the right hon. Member for Haltemprice I believe that the proposals will massively strengthen and Howden (Mr Davis) has said, it is fairly clear that, the hands of rich individuals and pressure groups, as even without the threat of recall, this place has treated well as vindictive media campaigns and unprincipled some Members very differently from others even when and manipulative social media targeting, and that they they were guilty—if that is the right word—of the same will ultimately be reactionary. People have benefited wrongdoings. from changes pushed for by individual MPs who made themselves unpopular at the time they did so, and they I am aware that Edmund Burke lost the general will realise that we need to encourage such MPs, not do election in Bristol after saying that he would betray the them down. electors rather than serve them if he sacrificed his judgment to their opinions. That is fine, because that is 4.2 pm what we are talking about: the judgment made at the general election. I find it rather odd that, even though Richard Drax (South Dorset) (Con): It is a great he is usually portrayed as the philosophical father of privilege to follow the right hon. Member for Holborn conservatism, so many Conservative Members do not and St Pancras (Frank Dobson). [Interruption.] He seem to agree with him. may have a safe seat, but it was a great privilege. I listened very carefully to what he said—like him, I do The proposed process is not democratic in any way. not support recall at all—and I agreed with every word Under the Government’s proposal, which is worse than as he set out his reasons for not supporting the Bill or that of recall enthusiasts, just 10% of the electorate the amendments proposed by my hon. Friend the Member would need to sign a petition. There would not be any for Richmond Park (Zac Goldsmith). provision for the other 90% to say, “We don’t think I think that this is rather a sad day—[Interruption.] there should be a recall.” It would, therefore, be possible The hon. Member for Clacton (Douglas Carswell) is for 10% to sign up and get a recall under way, even if the shaking his head, so I am doomed from the start. There vast majority of people living in a particular area were again, he used to shake his head at me when he sat on opposed to it. the Government Benches, so perhaps I will just get on The threat to the MP is not just that they might lose with my speech. their job, but that they would have to go through a It is a sad day when in a place where we are meant to horrible process, which would be expensive, in both a be honourable—the huge majority are honourable—we personal and a party political sense, even if they survived are navel gazing, as it were, about how we do behave, the recall. That is something we ought to try to avoid. while all around us the world is in meltdown, with Another problem is that the proposal would deter eurozone economies about to go splat again and wars Members from sticking to the views they deeply hold. If across the world. There are very serious issues, but we they saw another Member suffer for sticking by their are discussing us, which is what our electorate are not so principles, a lot of them would start wondering whether keen about. it was still a good idea to do so themselves. Anything Millions of people have died in two world wars and in that discourages Members from sticking to their principles other wars for our freedom. Several Members have is bad. My electors have elected me eight times with praised and applauded our system of democracy in this varying majorities and I have always tried to tell the country, and I join them in doing so. This is the most truth, because I am fairly secure in the feeling that, at a extraordinary place that I have ever been in. It is bigger general election, what I have done will be looked at in than us, and so it should remain. The day we tame it is 821 Recall of MPs Bill21 OCTOBER 2014 Recall of MPs Bill 822

[Richard Drax] changes party mid-term, the honourable thing to do is to submit himself or herself to the people, as the hon. the day that democracy will really start to die in this Member for Clacton and his colleague have done. country. The general election is the most special day for Legislation is a very dangerous tool to use. I have been all of us, as well as for our electorate and the country. It here for a very short time—just four years—but I think is the day on which many of us lose our jobs, many of that what the public want to see is some honour and us keep our jobs and many candidates earn their jobs. principle back in this place. Those things are here. I am Anything that undermines that extraordinary event has not saying that they are absent. They were a bit absent, to be considered seriously. It could seriously damage but we have learned our lesson—I hope. the democracy that so many people have died to protect. Legislation is such a heavy tool. When we introduce a I have no doubt that the motives of my hon. Friend piece of legislation, we seldom ask what the consequences the Member for Richmond Park are entirely honourable. will be. We do not ask, “What if?” If we raise a tax, we I have a lot of respect for him and all those who will do not ask people what effect it will have on their support his amendments, and I have respect for the business. Do we ever say that? I suspect that it happens Government who brought forward the Bill. I hope that occasionally, but not on the whole. I agree with what my I do not disappoint the Government, my hon. Friend hon. Friend says, but I do not think that we need and other Members by saying that when the Bill was legislation to achieve what he wants. first mooted some years ago, it was a knee-jerk reaction The hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant), who to events that had spun out of control, as is so often the is not in his seat, said that the leviathan is groaning. I case in this place. We panicked—I was not here, but in think he was referring to this place and the democratic saying “we”, I speak collectively of the political class—and system as a whole. My right hon. Friend the Member rightly so. Some had been found with their fingers in the for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis) said that there till. To the electorate, that was completely unacceptable, is a “chasm” between the electorate and this place, but I and rightly so. The political class panicked and the argue that that is not the case as far as conduct is recall Bill was mooted. concerned. Some Members have misbehaved, but they are in the minority. Where I believe my right hon. Sir Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con): My hon. Friend is right, however, is that all too often politics and Friend is absolutely right. If a Member is caught indulging principle have been surrendered for a coalition—to in corrupt actions, I have no argument with their being name but one reason—or to “grab the centre ground”. deprived of their seat, ultimately. That is what happens How often do we hear that? People perhaps react to at present. I am worried that people might be deprived opinion polls, rather than following their gut instinct. I of their seats because they express independent or difficult read a comment about Winston Churchill, and when he views. Therefore, before the Bill becomes law, we must was shown an opinion poll all he growled was, “Every amend it to ensure that the House of Commons cannot time I see one of those, I do the opposite.” He followed expel anybody for expressing an individual view that the his gut. House as a whole does not like. I do not know what my colleagues hear on the Richard Drax: I concur entirely with my hon. Friend. doorstep, but I get, “Richard, we want you to follow As always, his words are wise and should be listened to your principles and what you believe in. That is what we by us all. want to hear.” The lack of blue water, red water, yellow water, or whatever water it is, has been diluted over the I am concerned by some of the comments that colleagues years—[Interruption.] Yes, perhaps that was an unfortunate have made. Disparaging remarks have been made about phrase; I take the point of the hon. Member for Na MPs, the system, this place and our democracy itself. h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil), but he understands Members have said that we have somehow undermined what I mean. There is a lack of clarity and political democracy. principle, and in some cases when dealing with huge issues—not least immigration—there appears to the Mr MacNeil: The hon. Gentleman has used the word public to be a lack of political will, for all kinds of “democracy” a few times. As I am sure he and everybody reasons. That is the view of the public out there, not else knows, democracy comes from the Greek for the that we are all tucking into our expenses, going on rule of the people. If we believe in democracy, what can freebies and having endless affairs, or whatever it is be wrong with the recall Bill? alleged we are up to. If we took 650 people in any other walk of life, I would be interested in what we would find Richard Drax: If the hon. Gentleman will hold on for if we opened up that can in a big retailer, a bank, a a few moments, I will hopefully answer his question. hospital, or whatever. I guarantee that we are no different to the rest of the population. Daniel Kawczynski (Shrewsbury and Atcham) (Con): Will my hon. Friend turn his attention to Members of Parliament who are voted for by the electorate for one Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con): I am a little political party, but who chose to defect mid-term? That confused. My hon. Friend keeps saying that there is a happened in Shrewsbury when my predecessor defected big chasm between us and the public, but is not the from Labour to the Liberal Democrats. It caused a threat of recall one way of removing that? Recall would great many problems. Would he support some form of require Members of Parliament to be more honest and recall mechanism in those circumstances? true to their opinions, and perhaps those of their electorate.

Richard Drax: I do not know whether my hon. Friend Richard Drax: I thank my hon. Friend for that was here earlier, but I talked about honour, which is intervention but—dare I say it—I think it is a little sadly lacking in some cases. My view is that if somebody simplistic because so many other factors govern an 823 Recall of MPs Bill21 OCTOBER 2014 Recall of MPs Bill 824

MP’s life and the way he or she behaves. There is, for we shall not put any longer”, I hope that, if my action example, party loyalty, although many would call me a had been so heinous, I would have already resigned. rebel so perhaps I am not a good example of that. However, if I had not resigned I would be pushed. If the chairman did not do the job then, along with the party Mr Charles Walker: We in this place all search for a hierarchy, the party should be prepared to say to the silver bullet and an easy solution to our problems. In sitting MP, “Up with this we will not put.” 2009 it was the Independent Parliamentary Standards That leads to a question. Let us say the polls are Authority that would resolve all these problems. Has it? against the party and the sitting MP and suddenly there I do not think so. We must be realistic. Recall may have is a potential by-election. Every instinct in the parliamentary a place, but the idea that it will somehow restore faith in party would say, “For heaven’s sake, a by-election is the this place is pie in the sky. last thing we need in that seat.” But this is where honour, responsibility and all the things we must show Richard Drax: I agree entirely. What will restore faith to the public that we have come in; and I believe that we in this place is us—the parties and individuals that do have those things. The party hierarchy should say, make up this great place. It is our duty to do that, and “Tough. We may lose this seat, but the sitting MP has I do not think we need a recall Bill to prove that point. committed such a heinous crime that we have to get rid As I have said, the Bill, sadly, is a knee-jerk reaction. of him or her and have a by-election.” Those are the The hon. Member for Clacton asked why it has taken sort of people who should be making these decisions. four and a half years to come to this place, and I They should not be made by legislation. wonder—no doubt I shall be shot down by the three party leaders and many of my colleagues—whether Mr MacNeil: If we think back to the expenses scandal, because it was a knee-jerk reaction, in time people have is the hon. Gentleman saying that nothing dishonourable thought, “Is this actually a sensible Bill?” I think they happened among any Member still in this House? have come to the conclusion that in the main it is not, although at the time it may have seemed attractive, and Richard Drax: I am not quite sure I got that, because to a certain extent it may have appeased the electorate. I am so staggered by the question. Perhaps the hon. Will it solve the problem? I do not believe it will. Gentleman could rephrase it, because it did not make sense. There is some logic to the Government Bill. Apparently, there are no rules and regulations if we get a custodial Mr MacNeil: Is the hon. Gentleman saying that sentence under 12 months. If we do receive a custodial during the expenses scandal nothing dishonourable sentence—there have been various examples of that—it happened—he has said so much about honour—among means there are big questions to be asked, and in a any Member who was subsequently re-elected? sense the Bill covers that. The right hon. Member for Holborn and St Pancras said he was concerned about Richard Drax: I am not sure I have ever said that. In the figure of 10%, and asked about the other 90%. fact, I have said the opposite. If people have behaved—let Again, I entirely concur with that point. us take the expenses scandal—in a dishonourable way, I also agree with every word the right hon. Gentleman they should go, yes. said about the amendments proposed by my hon. Friend the Member for Richmond Park. I have a lot of respect Mr MacNeil: Have they all gone? for my hon. Friend, but I do not agree with any of his amendments for all the reasons I have set out. I shall Richard Drax: Ah. That is another question. I am not not repeat them, but I would like to point out what the going to look back with hindsight. I was not even here. letter we all received from Cabinet Office Ministers, We are where we are, and I do not believe that a recall dated 20 October 2014, says in explaining the intention Bill would have made any difference in this instance. of the Bill: The expenses scandal has unfortunately caused all of us “In formulating their proposals the Government has examined in this place to look backwards. The point has been international models which allow elected representatives to be made to me on many occasions, in spite of the fact that recalled on any grounds. The recall model proposed in the I was not here. Even now, the shadow of that appalling Government’s Bill fits with and goes further than Parliamentary time hangs over this place. We have to shake it off and democracies similar to ours—Australia, New Zealand and Canada put it behind us. People have paid and some have gone do not have recall in their main legislatures.” to jail. We should move on in a way that allows us, as I do not like comparisons with other countries. They the responsible adults and grown-up politicians we are are always dangerous. One of the many reasons why the all meant to be, to please the electorate in the way they eurozone is such a complete flop is that all the countries want to be pleased: by behaving in an honourable are so different and cannot be put in the same straitjacket. fashion. The same principle applies here. I shall move on briefly to another point that counters Mr Stewart Jackson: It is as well to remember that the Bill. We are all elected by our local associations. the expenses scandal in the 2005-10 Parliament was the Each party has its own system. Were I to commit an result not merely of individual foibles but of a collective, offence that constituted serious misconduct, I have no institutional failure to embrace openness and transparency doubt—I am sure colleagues on both sides of the House —under the previous Government but with the collusion would have no doubt—that I would be summoned to of other parties; it was not solely the result of the the local association office to explain myself. That is the malfeasance of individual Members. local face of our party. The local associations select us and they have the power to deselect us. In that conversation, Richard Drax: I take my hon. Friend’s point entirely; if my chairman was to say to me, “Richard, up with you he is absolutely right. 825 Recall of MPs Bill21 OCTOBER 2014 Recall of MPs Bill 826

[Richard Drax] (Zac Goldsmith) is a belief that trust in the people is the main thing, and that it is not honour, honour, honour I was not here, but I have heard from those who were from MPs that we need, but trust, trust, trust in the that the expenses scandal was sparked not least by a electorate to do the right thing? lack of clarity about what could be claimed. Nowadays, there are MPs appearing in the newspapers for buying Mark Durkan: Absolutely. I fully take the point. I staplers and other perfectly legitimate things for the believe that the bottom line, as regards the democratic office, so it has gone from one extreme to the other. We principle, should be to trust the judgment of the electorate all know if we have behaved dishonourably or done and to show belief and trust in their decisions by something wrong, and if it is so heinous, we should equipping them to deal with such issues. The idea that leave our job; of that I have absolutely no doubt. we must be protected from other judgments goes back I ask the Government to think carefully about the to some of the issues that gave rise to some of the Bill. If it becomes law, I fear there will be a gathering problems with the expenses scandal. I do not believe momentum, as is often the case with such legislation, to that this Bill is before us at this stage in this Parliament add on bits. Indeed, amendments are already being in the same way as the Parliamentary Standards Act discussed. I have listened all afternoon—it is important 2009 was introduced at this stage in the last Parliament; to hear people’s views—and people are already keen to I do not buy the argument that it is comparable panic or add on bits. The hon. Member for Clacton, who is no anything else. longer in his place, was asked by my hon. Friend the Long before we had the expenses scandal, there were Member for North West Norfolk (Mr Bellingham) about many warnings that the expenses system was open to a an incinerator plant that 65,000 of his constituents were lot of confusion and potential abuse, and that it was against; my hon. Friend said that had he voted for the ripe to scandalise the public if there was more transparency. plant, it might have sparked a recall. I think the hon. Those warnings were not heeded and the Good Ship Gentleman was rather amazed that the point was raised. Lollipop ran aground on what was leaked to The Daily To conclude, we are here to represent our constituents Telegraph. for a period of five years—not that I agree with fixed-term Parliaments; incidentally, if I may get in some free Sir Edward Leigh: Everyone agrees with the hon. advertising, there is a debate about that on Thursday. Gentleman about such bad behaviour, but does he agree On the matter in hand, however, will the Government with us on the following point, if on no other? Under please think carefully about this Bill? It should be a the Bill, when it becomes an Act, the House of Commons matter of honour, honour, honour, not legislation, should not be allowed to initiate any recall procedure legislation, legislation. on the basis of the views expressed by a Member, or his votes, or the party he joins, or any political act. The 4.22 pm protection is similar to that which we have under the Act of Settlement: we are not held to account outside Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): I struggle to find any forwhatwesayhere. part of the remarks of the hon. Member for South Dorset (Richard Drax) with which I can associate myself, Mark Durkan: I certainly believe that hon. Members but he has clearly stated his opposition to the Bill and should be clearly protected when expressing their views the amendments that we know are to come from the properly, honourably and honestly as legislators in this hon. Member for Richmond Park (Zac Goldsmith) and House. I firmly believe that legislators should be properly others. As one of those in the pick-up band of MPs the protected in doing their conscientious duty in this House, hon. Member for Richmond Park put together to sit as but when someone is elected for one party and suddenly a cross-party committee to consider an alternative Bill, flips to join another, a constituency should be able to obviously I support the general thrust of the amendments, recall that MP. That is why I support amendments such but I also take the point, aired as a trailer for subsequent as those proposed by the hon. Member for Richmond debates, that some of them need to be tested just as Park. much as some of the clauses in the Bill before us do. Warning against legislation, the hon. Member for Mr Stewart Jackson: I am afraid that kind words South Dorset said that the Bill addressed an issue that butter no parsnips. If the hon. Gentleman supports the should not be dealt with by legislation, but which amendments proposed by my hon. Friend the Member should be left to honour and responsibility. He indicated for Richmond Park (Zac Goldsmith), he is essentially that hon. Members know when we have done something allowing a value judgment by a minority of the electorate wrong and will take the appropriate course of action, in each constituency, subject to the recall procedure, to and that we do not need any rules. If we took that be the determinant factor, so he cannot give that guarantee argument to its extreme, we would not even have the on, for instance, a moral or conscience issue. Standards Committee, because we would simply know automatically that we had done wrong and would make Mark Durkan: I am almost being prompted to speak amends; there would be no need for anybody else to specifically to some of the amendments. The hon. Member come to a judgment—we could be entirely reliant on for Gainsborough (Sir Edward Leigh) asked me about a our own sense of honour and conscience—but clearly decision being taken by this House to, in effect, activate that is not the case and would not wash with the public. the expulsion proceedings—the right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis) was right to say Mr Graham Stuart (Beverley and Holderness) (Con): that this is an expulsion Bill, rather than a recall Bill. I agree with the thrust of the hon. Gentleman’s remarks. The principle of recall is meant to be in the hands of the Does he not think that what lies behind the amendments voters. The voters in a constituency elect an MP and the of my hon. Friend the Member for Richmond Park power of recall is meant to lie with them, but the Bill is 827 Recall of MPs Bill21 OCTOBER 2014 Recall of MPs Bill 828 not about a power of recall that lies with the voters. It is Democrats. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that in about the power to initiate a recall petition being in the future the people must always be able to recall a Member hands of this House or of the court; and, particularly if of Parliament when he changes sides? People vote for the process was activated because that Member’s views parties, not for individuals. were not comfortable for others in the House, an election would be called simply on the basis of 10% of the Mark Durkan: If people want to recall on that basis, constituents signing a petition. It is wrong that a recall yes, they should be able to do so, which is why I am should be triggered, with someone losing their seat and supporting the amendments. The hon. Gentleman having to go into a by-election, on the basis of 10% of challenges me on something that I have already stated the vote. I believe in.

Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab): I do Mr Charles Walker: I agree with my hon. Friend—I not know whether my hon. Friend plans to serve on the refer to him in that way because I like him very much—on Bill Committee, but given his knowledge and expertise I most things, but the beauty of being a Member of think that that would be a great advantage to us. Is not Parliament is that there is no job description. It is not a the challenge to try to find something better than the job; it is a vocation. We all bring our unique experiences original Government proposals and that addresses the to this place, and I think that anything that undermined need for the public to feel that they have recall power that would be to the detriment of the House of Commons. while protecting people from the political risks of the amendments? Is not the challenge to find something in the middle, perhaps better defining the kinds of offences Mark Durkan: I take the spirit of the hon. Gentleman’s that would lead to recall— point, but I do not accept it literally. If we are to talk about having a recall power—whether it be in the terms Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. of this Bill or any other—I believe there needs to be a yardstick. If the House of Commons is to adjudicate Steve McCabe: I am sorry, Mr Deputy Speaker. itself or to ask a select number of us are to adjudicate the rest in respect of standards and privileges, there Mark Durkan: I fully accept what my hon. Friend must be some clear standards. says, which is why I have said that just as some of the Many of the misgivings people have expressed about clauses in the Bill need to be tested, so do some of the the decisions of the Standards and Privileges Committee amendments to which I have added my name. Their over recent years have been because there has not been practicality and implications need to be teased out. an apparent consistent standard in some of the judgments made and the decisions subsequently transacted. If we Several hon. Members rose— as hon. Members have misgivings about how those decisions are made and if we do not always understand Mark Durkan: Before I take another intervention, I them, why should we not expect the public to suspect want to go back to an issue raised by the hon. Member the same thing? Should we be able to say, “Unlike many for Liverpool, West Derby (Stephen Twigg). He said other people about whom we legislate, and unlike in that we as MPs know what our role is, but I do not many other walks of life where we provide all sorts of know where the job description of a Member of Parliament detailed schedules, guidelines and regulations, we are to is. I do not know what our terms of office are or what be entirely free agents. We are the purest of democratic our pledge of office is. I hear people quoting Edmund angels, moved by whatever spirit or inspiration takes us, Burke and see them pointing to “Erskine May” and a and we are to be trusted as such”? We cannot present variety of other standards, but at no point do we have a ourselves in that way. pledge of service that clarifies the standards to which Let me return to core points about the Bill’s deficiencies. we pledge. As hon. Members have said, it is essentially an expulsion My belief is that there should be a pledge of service. I Bill rather than a recall Bill. Recall is meant to put do not believe in the simple affirmation of the oath of things in the hands of the voters. Calling this measure allegiance being the only terms on which someone the Recall of MPs Bill is a bit like the old joke about the comes to this place to represent their constituents. If we two-hour dry cleaners: “‘Come back next Monday and had a different pledge of office—it could include a you’ll get your suit.’ “But it says ‘two-hour dry cleaners’ statement of allegiance for those who wanted it—to outside”. ‘No, that’s just the name of the shop.’” Recall affirm and encapsulate the standards of public life and of MPs seems to be just the name of the Bill; that a commitment to proper parliamentary principles, it capacity is not given to voters. Insofar as a role is given could provide the basis on which anyone would have to to voters in respect of the recall process, it is simply that mount a recall challenge. That would give more protection if someone triggers either of the two mechanisms, 10% to MPs and would prevent the fear of an “anything will trigger a by-election. I think that the idea of a goes” situation, with people looking to do “gotcha” by-election being triggered by 10% is wrong, particularly petitions against different MPs of different parties in if there has been a lot of speculation and felon setting different parts of the country. by the media, which hon. Members fear. Those who fear that sort of scenario should certainly oppose the Daniel Kawczynski: Before the hon. Gentleman was Bill as it stands. interrupted, he spoke momentarily about what happens when a Member of Parliament defects from one party Mr MacNeil: The hon. Gentleman is making a very to another. I feel extremely strongly about this issue. It good point about the 10%, but will it not be dealt with caused a huge amount of concern in my own constituency by one of the safeguards proposed by the hon. Member when the previous Labour MP defected to the Liberal for Richmond Park (Zac Goldsmith)? We would have 829 Recall of MPs Bill21 OCTOBER 2014 Recall of MPs Bill 830

[Mr MacNeil] effort and resources, I do not believe that fear of the outcome described by the hon. Gentleman is sufficient the 5% step, the 20% step and then a referendum reason to oppose a more meaningful recall provision. involving a binary choice before a by-election took place. Rather than a minority activity, there would then Lady Hermon: Will the hon. Gentleman address a be a majority activity of choosing to have a recall very particular situation in Northern Ireland, namely by-election. the anonymity of donations to political parties? Fears have been expressed this afternoon about the ability of Mark Durkan: I thank the hon. Gentleman for making the very wealthy to buy a recall. How would the hon. that point. Those of us who were members of the Gentleman deal with that? Will he also take the opportunity pick-up band that was organised by the hon. Member to correct an earlier intervention, and confirm that for Richmond Park wanted to ensure that there could voters vote not just for parties but, on occasion, for be a trigger other than a parliamentary trigger, or a candidates who present themselves as independents? trigger from the courts, and the idea of putting what could be termed a 5% premise petition in the hands of Mark Durkan: I entirely take the hon. Lady’s point. constituents struck us as reasonable. Having been received, People do indeed vote for candidates who present themselves the petition would then have to be tested by a more as independents, some of whom have a very distinguished qualified assessment—the 20% petition—and if that record, as in her case. Voters can make sound judgments was successful, it would be followed by a referendum not only on the basis of party loyalty or traditional which would have to secure to a 50% vote before a party affinity but on the quality of service they want. by-election could take place. The hon. Lady is again a good example. She asked me about donations. Thanks to some rearguard efforts in Some Members have expressed the fear that voters the Chamber in relation to a Bill that was previously will be whipped up into a state of prejudice, and that before the House, we are now considering a timeline there will be misrepresentation of people and a for introducing donor anonymity, albeit with some disproportionate focus on certain issues. I ask them to qualifications. The proposals for recalls could be an consider both the stages and the time scale that are even stronger reason to focus on clarifying issues of proposed in the amendments that some of us support. anonymity, so that situations could not be abused in It is even possible that the time scale is too long. The one direction or the other. amendments would allow more protection and more measured consideration. The right hon. Member for Many Members appear to be raising concerns about Holborn and St Pancras (Frank Dobson) told us earlier how the process could be abused. Yes, there are all sorts that his constituents, who had a very clear view on a of nefarious forces out there, and various interests that very specific issue, were eventually prepared to vote for are equipped with money, with ill will and with power an MP who held completely the opposite view, because motives, but at the end of the day all our protection they had reached a more rounded judgment on the against that has to reside with the electorate. We come nature of the MP’s job, and because they set great store from the electorate and, when we leave this place, we go by truth and people being honest about their opinions. back to being part of the electorate. We should not try to proof ourselves or protect ourselves against the scrutiny and standards of democracy. Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP): As the hon. Gentleman well knows, notwithstanding the safeguards I do not believe that recalls will be used in anything that he has described, in Northern Ireland a group with like the number of situations that are being envisaged, the organisational ability possessed by Sinn Fein could but the fact of their existence will add to the standing of unseat an MP whom it believed to be vulnerable because Members of Parliament. The right hon. Member for that MP was already in a marginal seat. Such a well- Holborn and St Pancras seemed to suggest that recalls organised group could surmount all the barriers that he could deter Members from sticking to their own views, has outlined, and request a recall on spurious grounds. but I believe that they could encourage them to do so. If a Member were being asked by the Whips to move from their own clear personal position and to adopt the Mark Durkan: People can organise petitions, and stated party position, a proper recall mechanism would perhaps they can achieve the 5% and perhaps they can allow that Member to stand on the integrity of their then achieve the 20%, but after that there would be the position as an MP elected by their constituents, with referendum. Even in Northern Ireland, where people whom their first and last loyalty lies. have their own views, I have always found them to be fairly tolerant of MPs with different views if they know that those MPs are being honest and diligent. 4.42 pm Many years ago, I had to run the campaign in South Mr Andrew Lansley (South Cambridgeshire) (Con): I Down against Enoch Powell, who represented a minority am grateful for the opportunity to contribute to this opinion in the constituency at the time. I remember that interesting debate, and I am pleased to follow the hon. even nationalists in that constituency said, “Well, whatever Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan). In a sense, he and else he is, he is certainly a hard-working and diligent others who support the alternative approach, as set out MP.” They did not agree with his views, but they knew by my hon. Friend the Member for Richmond Park his views, and they knew that he did his job. Of course, (Zac Goldsmith), are looking for a Bill that would he also raised his hat to them when he was in the achieve a substantially different end from that of the constituency and greeted them, and they seemed to like Government’s Bill. I was surprised, however, that he that as well. Even in the context of Northern Ireland, and my hon. Friend the Member for Richmond Park and speaking as a Member whose seat has been heavily appear to argue that we should adopt that alternative targeted by Sinn Fein, which is investing an awful lot of approach precisely because they have constructed it in 831 Recall of MPs Bill21 OCTOBER 2014 Recall of MPs Bill 832 such a manner that it would be unlikely to have any Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con): I prosecuted nine effect. I know that accusations have been made, perhaps murder trials and all manner of other things in my with some justification, that the Government’s Bill would previous career, so I can endorse the fact that there will result in relatively few instances in which a recall would be a huge time gap in these matters. If we adopted the be triggered, because Members would very likely resign proposal made by my hon. Friend the Member for instead, as other Members have in the recent past. Richmond Park (Zac Goldsmith), the Member involved However, I do not think we should be looking for a would simply be hounded out. system that is so difficult to manipulate and in which recalls are so unlikely to happen that Members would, Mr Lansley: I am grateful to my hon. Friend, who in practice, be proof against it. has such expertise, for endorsing that point. My starting point is that Members would have little It goes even further. Often we are talking about to fear from being the subject of a referendum vote of offences that are not indictable. They are what are the kind postulated in the Recall of Elected Representatives regarded as offences in the mind of the electorate. They Bill, as opposed to the Bill we are considering today. I may be genuine or they may not be genuine, but if they believe in the genius of the masses. The experience of are genuine and bear upon conduct in this House and my 17-plus years representing South Cambridgeshire are, on the face of it, a breach of our code of conduct, has taught me that, although I might on many occasions they should be considered by due process. We are trying have done something that a minority of my constituents to make the process in this House as fair as possible. disagreed with, I doubt that they would ever have I have heard Members, including my right hon. Friend actually turned me out between elections on those the Member for Haltemprice and Howden, be very grounds. My right hon. Friend the Member for Haltemprice critical of the processes relating to past decisions of the and Howden (Mr Davis) made a similar point. Standards and Privileges Committee. Let us be clear: we have made changes in this Parliament to standards and Mr Graham Stuart: My right hon. Friend makes the privileges. We now have a Standards Committee that point that those in favour of these amendments believe, examines matters not solely at the behest of MPs who as I think we all do across this argument, that most are members of the Committee but has three lay members. Members of this House behave honourably and that We should consider this Bill alongside, and I hope with there will be very few instances in which the public, the benefit of, the review that will be conducted by the when they reflect seriously on the issues, seek to throw Standards Committee and its lay members. I am sure us out, but that is not a reason for not putting in place a that in Committee the Chair of the Standards Committee recall—put that power with people and put trust in will be able to add further to that. people to exercise it properly. The fact that it will be When I was Leader of the House I made it clear to rarely used does not mean it is not important. the Standards Committee that I saw these two things happening to some extent side by side, because the Mr Lansley: I agree. I have been listening carefully to second trigger in this Bill depends upon the credibility the debate, and it is interesting to consider under what and authority of the Standards Committee and the circumstances the kind of mechanism—the kind of recommendations it makes. We can improve that. I trigger for recall—that is not in the current recall Bill think it will require more lay members and I think it will but that is proposed to be put into it in its place would require a veto whereby a recommendation from the impact on Members. I do not think it would be the Standards Committee may not be made without the prospect that they would be the subject of a referendum support of its lay members. vote with 50% voting to have a by-election and the seat For reasons not least of parliamentary privilege we vacated. I think that is extremely unlikely. Much more cannot give lay members a vote. However, as Leader of likely, and in my view much more pernicious, is the the House I said—I would be grateful if my right hon. possibility of large numbers of Members, over the course Friend the Deputy Leader of the House confirmed of a Parliament, being subject to a notice of intent to this—that if there was a recommendation arising from recall—with all the attendant impact that can have on a vote in the Committee on Standards relating to the an MP, not least when deployed by, and in the hands of, conduct of a Member that did not have the support of the media—for taking steps that may be in line with the lay members, the point at which this House came to their manifesto and with the policy of their party or for consider that recommendation, I would see it as my taking an independent and potentially unpopular line, responsibility—I hope that my successors would too—to which, frankly, is even more laudable. put alongside any motion that was presented by the Chair of the Committee an amendment that would If the hon. Member for Clacton (Douglas Carswell) reflect the view of the majority of the lay members of and some others were here, they would say, “That’s the Committee. Therefore, while it would remain true simply putting yourself in a position where you have to that the membership of the House as a whole was listen to your constituents and respond to them.” That responsible constitutionally for the regulation of the is fair enough. We could accept that if this was done simply conduct of Members of this House and for a decision on that basis, but I think it would be more dangerous if to suspend or expel a Member, it would be transparent it was deployed in other circumstances. whether the House was acting directly in accordance I made a point to my hon. Friend the Member for with the majority view of lay members. It would of Richmond Park about a Member who had not been the course be acting with the benefit of the advice of the subject of due process. Under his Bill, somebody being Parliamentary Commissioner for Standards. charged with an indictable offence would stay the process, but we know perfectly well that substantial periods can Mr David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con): My pass during which people are the subject of very damaging right hon. Friend places a lot of emphasis on the issue allegations but are not charged with an offence. of due process, but due process is not necessarily just 833 Recall of MPs Bill21 OCTOBER 2014 Recall of MPs Bill 834

[Mr David Burrowes] Sir Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con): I agree with everything that the former Leader of the House is saying, the preserve of this House. There can be due process and I want to ask him a genuine question because he through a proper and appropriate trigger, threshold and has tremendous expertise in this matter. Does he think referendum. Ultimately, an election has a due process. that there might be scope to amend the Bill further on We have heard about being concerned about reputational Report so that it is absolutely clear that no procedure damage from spurious allegations and the rest. If there may be initiated simply on the basis of a Member’s is a judicial process, the recall could be suspended. We votes or views? Is there room for improvement? are already besieged by spurious complaints. Surely we should put this to a proper recall mechanism so that the Mr Lansley: I am happy to think about that, and I am electorate can put up or shut up. sure that our Front-Bench colleagues will also be willing to do so. My initial view is that the second trigger could Mr Lansley: I understand my hon. Friend’s point. I be applied only in relation to serious breaches of the am afraid that there are too many risks to be confident code of conduct of MPs so, by definition, views on that the process of notice of intent to recall leading to policy expressed by Members in this Chamber could the 20% petition could necessarily be regarded as objective not in themselves represent such a breach. and fair. All that is required to be done to damage substantially and perhaps fatally the reputation of a Thomas Docherty rose— Member of Parliament is for such an allegation to be made, which may or may not lead to any charge for an Mr Lansley: When I was Leader of the House, I always offence or even relate to an offence and which may be enjoyed hearing the often highly educated views of the something that is the product of their private and shadow Minister, and I give way to him so that I can do personal life and not of their activities in their professional so again. responsibilities as a Member of Parliament. The fact that that kind of recall can be triggered for whatever Thomas Docherty: The right hon. Gentleman says reason gives an opportunity for substantial damage to that he was involved in the Bill’s drafting and that it is be done without any objective and fair conclusion having good to be filling a gap. Will he or the right hon. been reached, which should be the case if one is going Member for North West Hampshire (Sir George Young), to have one’s livelihood put at risk in that way. who is sitting next to him, explain why although the coalition agreement said that the Government would Mr Stuart Jackson: Is my right hon. Friend not “bring forward early legislation to introduce a power of recall”, drawing the distinction between the Government’proposals, it has taken them four and a half years to bring forward which, although not perfect, are formalising the fact this important Bill? that the recall process will be around criminal behaviour and misdemeanours rather than the proposals of my Mr Lansley: The coalition agreement did say that, hon. Friend the Member for Richmond Park (Zac but draft legislation was published in 2011, which was Goldsmith), which will be focused on conscience and reasonably early in a five-year Parliament. policy issues? That distinction is very dangerous, which is why my hon. Friend’s amendments should fall. Thomas Docherty: How were you involved?

Mr Lansley: My hon. Friend leads me on to the most Mr Lansley: I was involved not least because of the important aspect of this, which is that what is being Political and Constitutional Reform Committee’s comments sought here is an opportunity for recall in order to seek on the draft Bill but, more specifically for my purposes, to influence the views of Members of Parliament. If because the Standards Committee suggested that the that is not the case, why would the public be doing it? I second trigger should be recast. The Standards Committee’s have made the argument about allegations of poor reservations are now dealt with in this Bill. behaviour. The Government’s recall Bill, which I support and was involved in, directs itself towards a perceived Mr Charles Walker: As important as recall is, what gap in the regulatory process relating to Members of was much more important in 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013 Parliament who commit criminal offences or who behave and 2014 was fixing this country’s economy, and ensuring in a manner that seriously breaches the code of conduct. that people could pay their mortgages and remain in My hon. Friend makes an important point. It would work. Let us not overestimate the Bill’s importance, be wrong to have a power of recall to try to sanction because—dare I say?—the Public Gallery is not doing so. Members of Parliament. This recall Bill puts in place an objective and fair process whereby, if something is proven, Mr Lansley: I do not suppose that I am overestimating members of the public may, by means of a petition, the Bill’s importance, although it was important that we recall a Member of Parliament and subject them to a delivered on our manifesto promises and the coalition by-election. However, the amendments that we will agreement. Achieving that was at the forefront of our consider in due course would put in place a substantially minds as we set out our legislative programme, for different process by giving people the opportunity to which I had responsibility. intervene by saying, “You,as my Member of Parliament, I was slightly amused that the speech made by the hon. are expressing a view with which I do not agree”—for Member for Clacton was largely about the importance reasons of conscience, policy, party or whatever it might of delivering on promises made at the previous election. be—“and I want to demonstrate that you are doing The Bill exactly delivers on the promise in the Conservative’s something that we do not agree with to try to influence general election manifesto, and I think that that was you to take a different approach.” why the Minister of State, Cabinet Office, my right hon. 835 Recall of MPs Bill21 OCTOBER 2014 Recall of MPs Bill 836

Friend the Member for Tunbridge Wells (Greg Clark), recognised that there was no way they could get 50% on started his speech by reminding us what that manifesto the subsequent vote, but it would have had such a said. For me, as a Conservative, the Bill is directly in line destabilising impact on the Prime Minister of the day, with that promise, and shifting to a process that is in circumstances in which he was doing something that substantially different from that under the Bill would was deeply unpopular but that he felt was right—whether involve making a presumption about what the legislation or not he was right is not the matter. I cannot see how a should be without our having a mandate from the responsible Parliament in a representative democracy electorate. The hon. Members for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) could go down that path. and for Clacton showed in their speeches that they would like a different constitutional settlement, of which Mr Graham Stuart: I am grateful to my right hon. the power of recall that they want is only one small Friend for honouring his pledge to give way to me. I aspect. think that he has now come to the heart of the matter, certainly as far as the amendments from our hon. Mr MacNeil rose— Friend the Member for Richmond Park (Zac Goldsmith) Mr Graham Stuart rose— are concerned: whether the electorate would seek to use the power of recall to challenge Members on matters of Mr Lansley: I will give way first to the hon. Member conscience, on how they vote and, fundamentally, on for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil), who is being how they do their job in this place. Hon. Friends who very persistent, as ever, and then to my hon. Friend the represent university towns might have found themselves Member for Beverley and Holderness (Mr Stuart). subject to such proposals when it came to voting on tuition fees. On balance, I do not believe that the electorate Mr MacNeil: I am trying to understand exactly what would abuse that power, but I recognise that there is a the right hon. Gentleman is saying. Is he saying, for risk. Does my right hon. Friend have any evidence that example, that were a future Prime Minister to lie in it would be misused, as we would see it, in that way? order to take the country to war, duping Parliament and, by extension, its Committees, the public should Mr Lansley: This is very difficult, because we are have no sanction other than years later at a general necessarily debating what the circumstances would be, election, when many other issues could be at stake? but I have been struck by speeches arguing for amending Mr Lansley: The hon. Gentleman raises an interesting the Bill on the basis that it will all be all right on the question, and not a hypothetical one—let us face it: he night. Well, legislation is not like that. Legislation is like is referring to a decision of the kind taken in 2003. We writing a contract; if we write a contract with somebody—in have asked today how many people would sign petitions, this case with the electorate—we have to know how it write to their Member of Parliament or go to one of will be used and what will happen when it starts to go four designated places in a constituency in order to do wrong. It seems to me that at the moment the defences something. Well, in my recollection, 2003 was the point against those potential problems are not there in the when it was most likely that large numbers of the public alternative Bill proposed. would have taken some specific action in relation to a Government policy that they had not sanctioned, that John Howell (Henley) (Con): Surely the evidence my certainly was not part of any previous manifesto promise right hon. Friend is looking for is in the bit of the Bill and that they felt was wrong. That raises the following that is covered by the amendments. I have not been question: what would have happened in 2003 had recall e-mailed by a single member of the public who is not been available? also a member of 38 Degrees. I say this in a disinterested way, because I did not vote for the invasion of Iraq and so this would not have Mr Lansley: My hon. Friend will recall that I am not affected me, but I think there are those who would enamoured of 38 Degrees, but it is interesting to make argue that that is what it is all about—that in those that distinction. circumstances members of the public would have had My hon. Friend the Member for Richmond Park and an opportunity to say, “Not in our name” by setting up his colleagues have constructed the proposition that one petitions and giving notice of the intention to recall. must physically go to one of four places in a constituency Throughout the period of the conflict in Iraq there in order to disempower 38 Degrees and those who would have been a rebellion among the electorate. would try to create petitions on an online basis. If we Is that right or wrong? I happen to think that necessarily start down this path, that is where the pressure will it is wrong. To return to the constitutional point, we are come. People will say, “In this modern age we should a representative democracy in which we owe our not be dependent on physically having to go somewhere”, constituents our collective judgment. We come here not in the same way that they blithely talk about electronic as an independent legislature separate from the decisions voting and so on. It will rapidly get to the point where it of the Government, but to form a Government and is not about visiting particular physical locations but sustain them through the legislature. That Government about generating large numbers of electronic signatures have to make decisions and secure the majority of this on online petitions. Then we will see a substantial House, and we have to stick by that. This proposal change in the relationship between Members of this House would have completely undermined that. and their constituents. If we are looking for a way to undermine the proposal, I have no problem with the idea that I should engage let us imagine that it had been possible for the organisers fully with my constituents and listen to them. In practice, of protests in 2003 to focus on the Prime Minister’s we have moved subtly in that direction. Anybody who constituency and get 20% of the voters there to sign a cares to remember, as I can, the debate in 2003 before petition. They would have done so, even though they the invasion of Iraq and the debate that took place last 837 Recall of MPs Bill21 OCTOBER 2014 Recall of MPs Bill 838

[Mr Lansley] I see part of my role as having been elected as a Conservative. A number of Members have said, perfectly year on the intervention in Syria will recognise that last reasonably, that we are primarily and overwhelmingly year more Members were responding in short order to elected—the hon. Member for North Down (Lady substantial online representations, in larger numbers, Hermon) has accepted this—on a party rather than an from their constituents. In 2003, I got a very large individual basis. I do not see that as meaning that number of letters, but they were actual letters, and individual Members of Parliament should not have a overwhelmingly individual, not template, letters. A lot conscience or be able to exercise their judgment, because of Members felt burdened by the weight of opinion that they owe that to their constituents. They will have to was coming to them on the Syria vote. come to a judgment on great matters of conscience that are relevant to their constituency. That was true on Mr MacNeil: The right hon. Gentleman has used Iraq: I did not vote for the invasion, even though it was the phrase “representative democracy” on a number of my party’s policy to do so. To suggest, however, that we occasions. If this is indeed a representative democracy, should behave as individuals outside party discipline is surely he has nothing to fear from a recall Bill. In fact, nonsense, because the whole system will begin to break having this Bill in the voters’ locker as a big stick used down if we go in that direction. lightly might ensure that it was a representative democracy The point made by my hon. Friend the Member for as regards the two examples he has given—tuition fees, Richmond Park was slightly the other way around. He given the promises made by one of the coalition parties, said that we all behave in the way the Whips tell us, but and the Iraq war. this has been a more rebellious Parliament—for good or ill—than ever before. I am not sure whether that is a Mr Lansley: It is not that Members have something good basis for the argument in favour of recall, because to fear from participation in our democracy—far from Members clearly feel that they can respond to their it. I believe completely in the wisdom of the masses, but conscience and their constituents without the need for a we have to recognise when and how that is properly to recall mechanism. be tested in the formal sense. We are a representative democracy, and we increasingly change the character of My hon. Friend the Member for Cities of London our democracy anyway. The referendum is a participatory and Westminster (Mark Field) has suggested that if we democratic vehicle. We have used it more, and it is likely took the Whips out of the process of deciding whether to be with us for the future, but only in specific a Member should be suspended from this House—actually, circumstances. That illustrates the nature of the I do not think that the Whips are part of that process— constitutional question at the heart of the potential that would somehow relieve us of the impact of the amendment to the Bill. Whips controlling our behaviour. The recall mechanism proposed as an alternative to this Bill, however, is a Shifting to a recall process is not about addressing greater risk to Members. If a Member were subject to the individual behaviour of Members—it is much more an allegation—a serious allegation, but not a criminal likely to be used to try to influence the policies of one—that threatened their reputation and position in political parties, of Members of Parliament, or of the the constituency, it is clear that they would then be Government. It would relate to particular individual subject to a notice of intent and at risk of a recall issues, unlike a general election. As other hon. Members petition. The situation would develop rapidly and the have said very forcefully, a general election is a vital question for their party would then be whether it supported moment in a representative democracy, because people them or not. take the whole presentation of party and candidate and consider it in the round. The recall mechanism is designed The hon. Member for Clacton (Douglas Carswell) to enable the public to intervene in and, notwithstanding mentioned Ian Gibson, who accused his party of what the decision in a general election might have been, abandoning him. The most dangerous thing for a Member to impact directly on an individual decision on an is to be abandoned when they are at risk of having to individual policy issue. stand in a by-election in their constituency. If the party takes the Whip away from a Member, they would, in Zac Goldsmith: My right hon. Friend is describing effect, have no chance in a by-election—unless they Parliament as if it were made up of hundreds of free were in a very strong position—and they would be spirits whose decisions might be corrupted by the pressure undermined. The power of the Whips as to whether a brought about by recall, but surely he realises—in fact, I Member has the Whip—and, therefore, their power know that he knows this—that the pressure applied by over that Member’s position in an election—would be party hierarchies through the Whips is on a dramatically unchanged by this or any other recall Bill. The power of different scale from the tiny pressure that might be felt the Whips is often exaggerated, but in so far as it exists, as a consequence of this remote and unlikely threat of a it would be unchanged by the recall mechanisms, whatever three-line whip that constituents might find themselves they might be. holding from time to time. There is no comparison—surely my right hon. Friend understands that. Most Members Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab): This is do exactly what they are told by the Whips for 99.9%— also a constitutional issue. We make judgments on sometimes 100%—of the time. behalf of our constituents on issues that are not in our manifestos. We also carry out manifesto commitments, Mr Lansley: I am quite old fashioned: Members but we are not delegates. I think that is where people would have to look quite far back to find a point at tend to get a little confused: there is a big difference which I did not vote in accordance with the Whip. I between making a judgment on behalf of constituents think that the last time I defied the Whip was on the and being mandated as an individual delegate to represent question of same-sex adoption rules. something. 839 Recall of MPs Bill21 OCTOBER 2014 Recall of MPs Bill 840

Mr Lansley: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. susceptible to amendment, because we in principle—the We are not delegates or ciphers; we are representatives. Second Reading is about the principle—support the Bill As Members have rightly said, we owe our constituents as it is. our judgment and our conscience and we are here to represent their interests, but we should not necessarily 5.18 pm subordinate any of that to their opinions or, still less, to some calculation of what might be their opinions. Mike Thornton (Eastleigh) (LD): I have been called earlier than expected, because there seems to be a lack It is very difficult to know precisely what one’s of Opposition Members in the Chamber, which I greatly constituents’ opinions are. For example, it was often regret. asserted with great confidence that my constituents Interestingly, Members spoke about those with safe were against the legislation on same-sex marriage, but or marginal seats. For Lib Dems, there is of course no that was absolutely untrue. I knew that they were in such thing as a safe seat. Looking back—I am fairly favour of it. Even those who contacted me were generally inexperienced in this Chamber—I must admit that 10 years in favour of it. I say this advisedly to Government ago I had absolutely no idea that I would be standing Members, but some Members in the Chamber voted for here to talk about recall, but I thought that I had better it and felt that they were right to do so despite their get up and speak. constituents being against it. They could not have taken much comfort from the last Conservative manifesto, A few people have spoken to me about America, because the proposal was not in the manifesto as such, although it has not been mentioned much in this debate. although it was referred to in other documents. Under Of course, America does not have by-elections. If somebody the recall mechanism, in that sense they would be at is removed, a governor or whoever appoints somebody risk. That brings us back to the argument made by in their place. It therefore does not expose the seat to the proponents of the alternative recall mechanism, which sort of manipulation for political purposes that might is that it would never have come to that. In that case, we happen in this country. have to ask under what circumstances recall would get The hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) spoke to such a point, and I mentioned some of those about a job description. We do not have one, but we circumstances earlier. could certainly live by a code of conduct. We may need To sum up, first, we are delivering on the promise we to consider that. made; and, secondly, we are very clear that in past cases My hon. Friend the Member for South Dorset (Richard of wrongdoing Members—either somebody, a long time Drax) said that we should be honourable. He said that ago, who was given a prison sentence or, more commonly, there is no need for the Bill because we have honour, a period of suspension from the House—would not although not among thieves. I think that it was Lord necessarily, as my hon. Friend the Member for South Hewart, when he was Lord Chief Justice, who coined Dorset (Richard Drax) put it, have done the honourable the phrase, “Justice must not only be done, but must be thing and resigned. Recently, such Members have done seen to be done.” Perhaps the problem is that people see so, but, frankly, they were not required to do so. Members of this House as not as honourable as we are, not as hard-working as we are, and not as committed to To return to an earlier point, regulatory processes in doing what we should be doing for our constituents and the House for managing the conduct of Members should the country as we are. show that we are willing, able and have mechanisms in place so that, as we promised, somebody who commits When I came to the House, I was incredibly impressed serious wrongdoing will be subject to a process that by how hard everyone works and how committed they may lead to their recall and expulsion from the House at are to their constituents. There are probably a few a by-election. We have seen possibilities for doing that exceptions. [Interruption.] Even the hon. Member for in the past, and we would stick to such a system in Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil) is an honourable future. person who has his constituents at heart. Most of us fight for our principles, but we have to compromise to Over the past couple of years or so, Ministers have ensure that what we get done is good for the country. tried to make the Bill as robust as possible, and we have Sometimes we have to say, “I can’t do this, but I can do not stopped doing so. However, there is a big gap that.” We have all done that within parties and within between where we are now and a recall mechanism that the Government. is completely different constitutionally, because it would Unfortunately, the Bill has serious flaws. The main allow the public the opportunity—on individual decision- flaw is that, if it goes through unamended, the public making and policy issues—to reach in to the Chamber will see that we are deciding who should be kicked out of the House of Commons in the middle of a Parliament, and who should not. I agree with what Lord Hewart and pull out a Member on the grounds that they had said. We must not just be honourable; we need a mechanism done something the public did not like between one that allows the public to see that we are honourable. general election and the next. That would undermine The public must have a way of initiating a recall. the general election as the critical moment for accountability, and it would undermine Members if it was abused, as I have read the amendments of the hon. Member for inevitably most mechanisms can be abused. Constitutionally, Richmond Park (Zac Goldsmith). Not only would they it would take us in the direction of participatory or open the process to political abuse, but they are so direct democracy, which is not the direction in which we horrendously long-winded and complicated that the in this Parliament want to go. chances of succeeding in getting anyone recalled if they deserved it would be minimal. The process could be Notwithstanding the fact that many Members will dragged out for two years, at which point the MP would vote for the Bill on the grounds of wanting to change it, be more or less useless and would probably resign I and I hope others will vote for it, although it is anyway. It is just not a good mechanism. 841 Recall of MPs Bill21 OCTOBER 2014 Recall of MPs Bill 842

[Mike Thornton] public know exactly what this is about, and are not filibustered by politicians, was to make it an obligation We need a decent amendment that would allow the for whoever is requesting the recall to go on the record. public to bring an issue to some sort of independent That individual must be able and willing to come forward body of Parliament. I am not clever enough to say at and put their name on the record, and someone who is a this moment how that could be done. Perhaps a judge political mischief maker and whose name is well known or someone else would be able to say, “This person has will therefore give a message to the public about exactly breached the code of conduct.” It does not have to be what is behind that process of recall. Having somebody anything criminal. Teachers and social workers can lose on the record whose name is made public is important, their jobs for non-criminal activity if they breach a code and I fought long and hard in the committee, where we of conduct. We need to allow the public to point out discussed a number of amendments, to ensure that that when someone has breached a code of conduct. If a was included. reasonable case is brought forward—not proven, but The second point I fought hard for was the need for a reasonable—a recall mechanism should be instituted. reason. For all the reasons that the triggers are too I think—believe it or not—that the 10% threshold is narrow, there must none the less be something that sets too high if it is demonstrated that somebody has breached out clearly what lies behind the recall and is known to the code of conduct. We need to reduce it to provide a the public. Not only must those reasons be set out reasonable chance that somebody who has done something clearly in the document, they must also be present, wrong will be recalled. However, I do not want someone along with the name of the sponsor, in every polling to be recalled just because somebody else feels like it. It station, so that anybody voting in the referendum knows is possible that, after my by-election, 20% of my electorate who is proposing the recall and the reason for it. could have said, “We might be able to get rid of him and Even that is not enough, however, and to me it is get someone else in.” I do not think that it would have important that the Member of Parliament has a right of been fair to have another by-election six months later. reply. That is absent from the Bill. It is mission critical I put it to the House that we need a compromise for an MP to have that right of reply, and that that is on between the proposals of the hon. Member for Richmond the table with the name of the sponsor and the reasons Park and the Bill, which is very weak. I will vote for the given for the recall so that Members of the public are Bill, but I will do so in order that a good amendment fully informed about the decision they are making. No can be tabled that makes it workable, practical and fair. system is perfect, but I believe that that system is fairer and more reasonable, and will give confidence to the 5.24 pm British people that we are honourable: that we stand by our word, we stand by our reputation and we stand by Anne Marie Morris (Newton Abbot) (Con): The Bill what we say and do. is fundamental to us being a democracy, and I am proud that the Government have introduced it. We Sammy Wilson: The very fact that the hon. Lady has treasure democracy, and I believe we will continue to outlined so many safeguards is an indication that she treasure it as the years progress. Being a Member of knows the process would be open to abuse, and that Parliament is an enormous privilege, and as a first-time people would wish to abuse it. Her first suggestion is for MP in 2010 I have come to value that. It is a privilege a name to be on the front of the petition or whatever so because it is the only role I can think of that is based on we know who is sponsoring it, but surely any organisation trust—trust between the electorate and the individual. would get an unknown and innocuous supporter to put If my constituents do not trust me, or if I do not trust their name to it, just as happens with judicial reviews in them, it simply does not work, and the Bill seeks to Northern Ireland on planning applications and so on, address where that trust breaks down. where the real person behind them is not known? I agree that there must be a real cause for recall, but I trust the people to work out whether or not there is that Anne Marie Morris: I would love to think that we just cause. My problem with the Bill as currently drafted lived in a world where we were all saints and there were is that the decision is very much in the hands of us as no sinners. Clearly, there will be individuals who might MPs—after amendment of the original Bill, that decision well try to abuse the system. However, there is no has gone to the Standards Committee. Although the system, whether it is the system my hon. Friend the proposed amendments would introduce lay members to Member for Richmond Park puts forward or the the Committee, I am far from convinced that the British Government system, that is completely proof from any people would accept and trust that. However the decision abuse. I take issue with the challenge from the hon. is made, I believe that it cannot be made by Members of Gentleman on the name of the sponsor. I do not believe Parliament. that the British people are sufficiently misguided not to I support my hon. Friend the Member for Richmond look at the name. When they look at Mr Nobody, which Park (Zac Goldsmith) in what he is trying to achieve, I think is what he is suggesting, they will say, “Hold on a and he put it extraordinarily well. However, the issue of minute. Mr Nobody doesn’t generally get interested in the trigger has been a continuing challenge, and the these sorts of things,” and realise there is a stitch-up. I Government’s proposals, with just two triggers, have understand his concern, but we live in the real world. been challenged by many in the House. We are trying to We do not live in a world of saints, but fortunately we find a way of giving people a say in the recall of their do our best to deal with the sinners. MPs, and that cannot be as narrow as the Bill sets out. As part of the amendments put forward by my hon. I entirely understand concerns that there may be Friend, what I propose will provide the comfort that I abuse, but we must find a way forward. That is why, know a number of MPs want. At the end of the day, working with my hon. Friend and his committee, I however, if we do not accept that we are here because of suggested that one way of trying to ensure that the the trust of our constituents, and if we do not recognise 843 Recall of MPs Bill21 OCTOBER 2014 Recall of MPs Bill 844 that there has to be that mutual trust and respect, we We have debated whether the percentage is too high have a problem. Indeed, we know we have a problem or too low. It is extraordinarily hard to know what the because right now people remember us for the expenses correct figure should be. It will depend partly on whether scandal. It really does not matter whether we were here we adopt the truly democratic approach proposed by at the time, we still have that black mark. We have to my hon. Friend the Member for Richmond Park, which win that trust back and this is a very powerful way of I support, or the—in my view—more restrained democratic doing it. approach proposed by the Government. I think that my hon. Friend is right to opt for a higher percentage. I Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP): If we hear the argument about it being too high, but on want to deal with an abuse of democracy and win trust reflection I am confident it is the right figure. We are back, does the hon. Lady realise that it does not help concerned in this House, this goldfish bowl, about how when this House pays hundreds of thousands of pounds the British people see us, and some are worried that each year to a political party in Northern Ireland, Sinn others with adverse views might endeavour to misuse Fein, for not coming here to represent their constituents? the Bill. I am the first to agree that every country is different—we are very different from the US—but why Anne Marie Morris: The hon. Gentleman has the is it that in countries with a truly democratic recall advantage of me. That is something close to his heart process there have not been the catastrophic events and he understands its ramifications. This is a matter of feared by some in the House? where angels fear to tread. I do not think that this is an To return to where I started, this is a matter of trust. issue I am brave enough to comment on. Indeed, I think We spend a lot of time with our constituents. Every I would be wise not to, but I thank him for his comments. year, I deal with 6,000 new cases—not simply complaints, but real issues of housing, benefits, health and so on—and Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD): I wonder whether one in dealing with so many people, one gets under the skin might suggest that the lack of a job description is one of of a community and people come to understand and the things that confuses the electorate, because it is not trust their MP.It is something we have to earn—it is not entirely clear what MPs do. I accept that MPs interpret a right—but if we can earn it, the sort of recall process their job in a particular way, but if one had some way of suggested by my hon. Friend can work. recalling MPs for what might be described as a gross dereliction of duty that would at least give some faith to Mr Stewart Jackson: On the distinction between a the public. The public and those who might engage in a legitimate issue of criminal misbehaviour and sincere, by-election process should be able to judge that. That, well-meaning beliefs, my hon. Friend still has not convinced at least, could be deemed as a correct or incorrect me that people such as Sydney Silverman, Leo Abse, charge. who campaigned on homosexual law reform, and others would not have been subject to recall and lost those Anne Marie Morris: The hon. Lady makes a very ballots. interesting point, but it is not quite as simple as giving us a job description. There is something peculiar and Anne Marie Morris: We can speculate about what special about being a Member of Parliament. We are might have happened, but it is not as simple as whether not employers, we are not employees and we are not something is a criminal offence. So many things, situations self-employed. We do not fall within the framework of and reasons could serve as a basis for recall that if we almost any piece of standard legislation. She is right tried to over-categorise them, we could get into a legislative that a job description might be a good plan, but that is nightmare trying to provide for every single event. I very much the first point. There is so much more that hear what my hon. Friend says, but I do not think that would have to be changed. The challenge would be, as even he could provide a perfect definition giving the she rightly says, that we all do the job in a number of complete protection he would like, and that brings me different ways. It would be very difficult, and perhaps back to trust. Trust is something very special. Married constrain us from doing a good job, to say that the job couples need it: there are no rules or regulations for had to be done in this way or that way. marriage; it works if there is trust and if both people want to see it through. For that reason, I think this can Tessa Munt: I am not suggesting there should be a work. job description, but in a representative democracy, people I commend the Government for having the courage should understand exactly what they expect of their to introduce the Bill. It is very important, but I will MPs. We all have to deal with the post, hold our work with my hon. Friend the Member for Richmond surgeries and do various other things that have come to Park to try to amend it to include some of the proposals be expected of MPs. For instance, it might well be that I have made, which I hope Members will accept. constituents have a reasonable expectation that MPs should at least turn up in this place. 5.40 pm Anne Marie Morris: The hon. Lady makes another Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con): I welcome the good point about the challenge, which the Government fact that the Government have introduced the Bill and I have faced, of trying to define triggers, rather than congratulate them. It has been a long time coming, but relying on the people to look at why and by whom an it is welcome that we shall at last have a Bill on the individual is being recalled. She identifies the problem, statute book that brings about recall in some shape or but I am not convinced her solution would be better, form. safer or less liable to abuse than mine: the name of the We need to recognise that the cornerstone of the sponsor, a clear statement of the reason for a recall and democratic process is that power resides with the people— the opportunity for the Member to respond. the electorate—but it is far too easy to ignore how 845 Recall of MPs Bill21 OCTOBER 2014 Recall of MPs Bill 846

[Martin Vickers] were advanced in previous eras in private Members’ Bills? They were given time by the whole House, and I disillusioned they are. We have heard Members say that think the public valued that private Members’ process, this will pass, but it will not do so without more positive when no party Whip was exercised, which is completely action, and a recall Bill modelled on the proposals different from today. made by my hon. Friend the Member for Richmond Park (Zac Goldsmith) will go some way towards providing Martin Vickers: I cannot disagree; private Members’ that. Bills have indeed played a very important role over the The challenge, of course, is how we achieve the years. balance between the very real demands of the electorate On the subject of articulating the concerns of the and the need to protect Members from vexatious attempts local community, I recall that my hon. Friend the Member to undermine and remove them. We must not underestimate for Gainsborough (Sir Edward Leigh)—I served as his how disillusioned the public are with politicians and the constituency agent for many years—always used to whole political process. speak of his role as being “a megaphone” for the local Earlier in the debate, concerns were raised about community. We should take that seriously; it applies to Members who support unfashionable causes. Change is many issues. painfully slow in this country; we can all sympathise My hon. Friend the Member for Richmond Park with that, as we all have our pet schemes and find it highlighted Members’ failures: failure to engage with incredibly frustrating that we cannot put them into constituents, long absences from Westminster and switching action. Despite those frustrations, we must recognise parties without by-elections, to which I might mischievously that one of the great strengths of our country is stability— add, voting in support of handing the sovereignty of change certainly does not come quickly. this place to a foreign institution. Having an in-House If we are to restore public confidence, the first thing solution, as is being proposed, is no longer acceptable we must do is genuinely recognise the level of public to the public. Whatever the outcome of the Bill’s legislative distrust of and cynicism about we politicians. We must journey, a recall Bill will reach the statute book, which do more than pay lip service to dealing with it; we need is progress. to show by our actions that we will do something about Let me explain the difference between the recall process it. The hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) drew and waiting for the next general election in order to get attention to some uncomfortable home truths, talking rid of a Member. As a previous speaker mentioned, about safe seats and how the low level of party membership general elections tend to focus on whom we want to can result in the selection process in such seats being govern the country, while the recall process and subsequent limited to 100 people or fewer who, in effect, elect the by-election would be much more focused on the individual Member of Parliament. That could of course be simply and his failings or, indeed, his strengths. resolved by thousands of people queuing up to join the I shall support most of the amendments proposed by political parties that are most in tune with their views, my hon. Friend the Member for Richmond Park. Whatever but we have all had very limited success in increasing the outcome, we shall at least be able to go back to our our party membership and it will not happen in the constituencies and rightly proclaim that we have made near future. some progress on recall, even though more progress is The message should go out that democracy is a needed. two-way process. Those of us who put ourselves forward for election are not the norm. Most of us try very hard to engage with those we represent, and it is because so 5.47 pm many are so disenchanted with the whole process that Sir George Young (North West Hampshire) (Con): I they simply refuse to become involved. I recognise that want to make a brief intervention in this debate, because the opportunity to give a sitting Member a kicking so far no one who has sat on the Standards and Privileges might tempt some to join in, but although the thresholds Committee has spoken. During the course of the debate, being proposed might be sufficient, I would probably a number of assertions have been made about how that err on the side of slightly upping the thresholds proposed Committee operates. We heard from one hon. Member by my hon. Friend the Member for Richmond Park to that there was risk of a tabloid campaign leading to the offer additional protection. upholding of a complaint against a Member who would I mentioned unfashionable causes, and mention has then find himself confronted with a 10% petition in his been made of abortion, capital punishment and the like. constituency. Another Member asserted exactly the Of course, unpopular policy decisions are taken: the opposite—that the Standards and Privileges Committee closure of a local hospital, for example, is always going was a cosy clique that protected other Members from to be contentious, but what if I or any other Member justice. Let me therefore explain the Committee’s role, thought that the proposals were in the best interests of the environment in which it operates and the very real those we represent? Should we be on the side of the constraints on what its members can do. health trust, which has vast resources and an army of First, there is an independent Parliamentary lawyers and accountants to look after it, or should we Commissioner for Standards. That commissioner, who be there to articulate the genuine concerns of those we is independent of Members, investigates the complaint represent, by engaging meaningfully and trying to put and produces a report saying whether or not the complaint forward a balanced view? should be upheld. Members of Parliament and members of the Committee have no role whatever in the production Chris Bryant: Members have campaigned on issues of that report, which is always published. Members are such as abortion or ending the criminalisation of then free, if they so wish, to go against the finding of homosexuality, but is it not an irony that those causes the independent commissioner, but they of course need 847 Recall of MPs Bill21 OCTOBER 2014 Recall of MPs Bill 848 very good reasons so to do. They are going to have to that Minister, who would be doing the work of the stand up in public; they cannot simply say that they do House. Other Ministers may be involved in such issues not uphold the complaint, as reasons have to be produced. as fracking, planning or tuition fees. I envisage a real One quite recent change is the introduction of lay risk that Ministers who are doing the business of their members on that Committee. It is true that the lay party and the business of the Government will be members do not have a vote, but they have something destabilised by this mechanism. much more effective—a veto. If they disagree with I think that what the House ought to do on this the elected members of the Standards and Privileges occasion is honour the commitments that the three Committee, that disagreement is put into the public main parties made in their manifestos, and link recall to domain. Any attempt by Members of Parliament to misconduct. By all means let Members develop the shield a colleague from a wholly justified complaint debate and consider the options that have been ventilated would be shot to bits by the lay members publishing a by those who support the amendments, but those are, report in disagreement. Further changes are that the perhaps, for another Parliament. I do not think that we Chairman of the Standards and Privileges Committee should divert from the commitments that nearly all of cannot come from the Government Benches. When I us made at the last election. I think that we should get chaired the Committee, there was no Government majority the Bill on the statute book and then, at a later date, on it. The notion that the members of this Committee, explore some of the other amendments that have been in the words of one Member, “chase the Whips’ bauble” proposed. is a gross injustice to the independently minded MPs who serve on the Committee. I think they would deeply Mr David Ward (Bradford East) (LD): Is the right resent some of the allegations made against them. hon. Gentleman saying that we are in danger of becoming obsessed with the process leading to a conviction without Bill Wiggin (North Herefordshire) (Con): As a former first determining the nature of the crime involved? Chairman of the Standards and Privileges Committee and a former Chief Whip, my right hon. Friend is Sir George Young: I think that the process should be uniquely positioned to confirm whether, should a Member linked, if not to a conviction, to serious misconduct. As challenge the findings of the Committee, the Government my hon. Friend knows, there are two triggers in the Bill. would whip the party against that Member. One is a custodial sentence of less than a year, and the other is a finding by the Standards and Privileges Committee Sir George Young: The debates about Standards and that a serious misdemeanour has been committed. That Privileges Committee reports that take place on the must be validated by the House, and I think that it Floor of the House are unwhipped business, and the ought to be supported by the lay members. However, I Whips have no role to play in them. Indeed, I have been am clear in my own mind that there is a distinction in the House when it has overturned one of the Committee’s between cause and conduct. We heard from the right recommendations. That is another safeguard that has hon. Member for Holborn and St Pancras (Frank Dobson) been overlooked. The Standards and Privileges Committee about the case of Lena Jeger, and there are others who does not have the last word; its recommendations go to would have been caught if the Bill had been extended in the Floor of the House. The notion that Members of the way that some have suggested. this House would validate a kangaroo court of Members I think that, on this occasion, we should stick to our upstairs is an injustice to them, for they would not commitment, and get the Bill on to the statute book. tolerate it. Having said that, I should add that I have a great deal 5.53 pm of sympathy with some of the points that have been made today. For example, we could consider increasing Mr Stewart Jackson (Peterborough) (Con): Let me the role of the Committee’s lay members, and consider declare an interest at the outset, as an adjunct associate whether it would be procedurally possible, in certain professor of British politics at Richmond university. If cases, to ask them to conduct the adjudication and my comments are somewhat ponderous, that will probably publish the report. They could be the only voice in such be the reason. cases if that found favour. On 17 October 1834, crowds gathered on the south I think that one dilemma was put well by the hon. bank of the Thames to cheer on the conflagration that Member for Liverpool, West Derby (Stephen Twigg), consumed the Palace of Westminster. They were cheering who asked “Is it cause, or is it conduct?” In other words, at the prospect of several MPs dying in the hideous are we going to hold people to account for their conduct, blaze that had begun when the tally sticks were burnt in or for their cause? Our manifesto made it absolutely the oven below the House of Lords as a result of the clear that recall would be linked to misconduct. less than diligent way in which the men were performing I see all sorts of risks in going down the path advocated their duties. They had gone off to dinner, and to the by my hon. Friend the Member for Richmond Park pub. The point is that there have never been any halcyon (Zac Goldsmith), although I commend the way in which days in which Members of Parliament enjoyed great he opened the Back-Bench debate. For example, in this popularity. They have never lived in the land of milk country MPs are also Ministers. Some unpopular decisions and honey, and to suggest otherwise would be quite are being made at the moment: HS2, for instance, is wrong. controversial, although it has been validated by the My concern about the Bill and the amendments House. Some Transport Ministers are in marginal seats, being put forward by my hon. Friend the Member for and the HS2 campaign is, I believe, fairly well resourced. Richmond Park (Zac Goldsmith) is that they are predicated It would not be impossible to achieve the 5% trigger in on myths. As my right hon. Friends the Members for the constituency of a Transport Minister and to destabilise South Cambridgeshire (Mr Lansley) and for North 849 Recall of MPs Bill21 OCTOBER 2014 Recall of MPs Bill 850

[Mr Stewart Jackson] decisions are taken by supranational bodies such as the European Union, by obscure far-away bodies including West Hampshire (Sir George Young) have said, the quangos such as the Highways Agency and the merit of the Government’s proposals is that they make Environment Agency, and by big local government, a clear distinction between malfeasance, criminal conduct which is seen as a self-perpetuating elitist cartel. That is and misbehaviour and they address the legitimate concerns the reason; it is not because they think all MPs are liars, that have been expressed about scapegoating people cheats and thieves, although a lot of them do. Actually, with deeply unpopular or unfashionable views. Examples that is not even as simple as one might think, because could include Willie Hamilton, an ardent republican, or they think everyone else’s MP is a liar and a cheat and a Sydney Silverman, with his long-standing commitment thief, but theirs is a charming young man who came and to the abolition of capital punishment, or Leo Abse, opened their summer fete last year, and who is trustworthy, who was in favour of homosexual law reform. They decent and a great person. were all decent, honourable Members of this House, but they might have fallen foul of a recall process Nick de Bois: Not that young. instigated by powerful vested interests in their constituencies and across the country. Mr Jackson: Yes, not that young in some cases. Many myths have been flying around, one of which is I also take issue with the comments of the hon. that turnout has been falling. It has not. Over the past Member for Rhondda—who is not in his place at the two general elections, it has gone up to 65% from the moment but who is a gifted historian whose book on low point of 59% in 2001. I was corrected by the hon. the history of Parliament I have read—that a party Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) when I mentioned caucus chooses a Member of Parliament, not the electorate. Garry Allingham, an obscure Labour MP who was, I That is a very arrogant and disdainful attitude. An think, a journalist for the Daily Mirror.Hewasas election is like a jigsaw puzzle, and every single piece is obscure then as he is now. He was expelled from the a part of that puzzle, and when it all comes together House of Commons in 1947 for saying that MPs were that is the beauty of democracy. That is not for party unable to vote properly because they were drunk. He caucuses. was called to the Bar of the House and expelled. So Bad’uns have always existed in politics, whether it is disciplinary procedures were in place then, and a precedent Sir Charles Dilke, Horatio Bottomley or many other was set, but not on the basis of criminal activity. The Members of Parliament. Bad’uns get elected as well as bar was set much lower, and he was expelled on the get thrown out. We only have to think of someone such ground that he had upset the sensibilities of hon. Members as Oswald Mosley in the 1930s. Essentially, I believe in on both sides of the House. the wisdom of crowds. I believe in the sanctity of that I have grave concerns about the efficacy of introducing bond between the electors at the general election. That primary legislation at the end of this Parliament, because is the recall process: an election where there is perfect to do so fails to take on board the fact that there has competition and perfect knowledge by the voters to been a significant amount of incremental reform, both understand the record, vision, policies and principles of administrative and legislative, in this Parliament. For a prospective Member of Parliament. example, we now elect the Chairmen of Select Committees and, from within party caucuses, Select Committee Mr Burrowes: I recognise my hon. Friend’s wisdom members. The power of the Whips is now much less and understanding of political history, but, on history, acute than it was even five years ago. And of course we may I take him back to February 2008, when he joined elect the Speaker. me and 26 other hon. Friends, part of the 2010 intake, The idea put forward by my hon. Friend the Member in a letter to The Daily Telegraph? The letter stated that for Richmond Park that 100% of MPs vote 100% of the recall time is palpable nonsense. I am a walking, talking “would increase MPs’ accountability, address some of the frustration example of that fact, and the reason I behave in that felt by a disenchanted public and help restore trust in our democratic way is that I was never consulted over the coalition institutions.” agreement. I was elected as a Member of Parliament on If that was right in 2008 and right in our 2010 manifesto, the basis of the Conservative manifesto. When my why is it not right now? principles coincide with those expressed in the coalition agreement, I will vote with the Government; otherwise, Mr Jackson: My hon. Friend is such a decent and I will not. We now have something akin to a Regency generous gentleman that he did give me notice yesterday Parliament, in that we have collections of different that he would ambush me in this way, and I thank him interests, and Members voting as they see fit. The idea and have an enormous amount of respect for him, but I that we are all ciphers and automata who toe the party have changed my mind, as I have changed my mind on line is complete nonsense. We have also made reforms many things over the years. I have changed my mind on to the Standards and Privileges Committee. House of Lords reform, for instance. I think it ludicrous I believe that this legislation would undermine that we have an upper Chamber that is the largest parliamentary sovereignty. It would undermine the sacred unelected body outside the people’s congress of China, bond of faith and trust that exists at election time and believe that should be reformed, even though I am between Members of Parliament and their electors, and a Conservative, of course. So I have changed my mind it is nonsense to suggest that that would not be a on that. problem. I simply think that we are looking through the I have looked at the details of the Government’s Bill wrong end of the telescope. The reason that people feel and I accept that it does make that distinction between disempowered and alienated from politics is that they moral conscience issues and policy issues and real issues do not feel that politics matters to their lives, because of misdemeanours and criminal conduct. 851 Recall of MPs Bill21 OCTOBER 2014 Recall of MPs Bill 852

Mr Graham Stuart: I suppose the worst case scenario Mr Jackson: I understand. Let me put it on the with the Government’s Bill is when somebody does record that my hon. Friend is a decent, diligent and something that the public regard as pretty serious, yet caring Member of Parliament who wants to see this which neither leads to a custodial sentence, as many House improved and its reputation enhanced. I have noxious things do not, nor to a suspension of a sufficient never resiled from taking that view and his motives are number of days, and we are left with the public feeling not ignoble. None the less, we may have mission creep, cheated by a recall Bill that did not deliver what they whereby powerful groups, elites and well-funded individuals would have expected. and organisations may use those particular mechanisms to oust Members with whom they bitterly disagree. Mr Jackson: My hon. Friend makes a very good Again, I will call on examples from the past. I ask the point, but I come back to a central issue that was hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) whether his touched on by my hon. Friend the Member for South illustrious predecessor, John Hume, the Member for Dorset (Richard Drax) about the split between the Londonderry, would have taken the same very brave Executive and the legislature. I believe one of the lessons and principled decisions against people in his own of the expenses disaster was the failure of the Executive community and the other community in Northern Ireland properly to embrace the Freedom of Information Act, were he subject to the vagaries and the vicissitudes of a openness and transparency at an early stage across recall process? That is an open question. all parties, and what we see here is the sins of the Executive being visited on the legislature and Back Mark Durkan: I worked for John Hume as his Benchers. Westminster assistant for many years, and the truth is that he would have taken the same decisions. Nothing The concept of the Executive facing up to their own would have dissuaded him from his course. He came responsibility is long past, with Peter Carrington’s under great pressure not from his constituency but from resignation as a result of the Falklands invasion and, the media and all sorts of establishments, and he stuck for those who can remember their constitutional history, that course with the support of the people of Derry Crichel Down in 1954, when the Minister of Agriculture, come what may. who I believe was Sir Thomas Dugdale, resigned as a result of a piece of land, the sale of which was mishandled Mr Jackson: I defer to the hon. Gentleman’s knowledge. by his Department. Ministerial responsibility for the Of course John Hume was greatly liked and respected in Executive is much less in fashion than it ever used to be. this House, but that does not mean that vexatious, What we are being asked to do today, particularly with pernicious and dangerous elements would not have the amendments of my hon. Friend the Member for sought to remove him using a recall process. None of us Richmond Park (Zac Goldsmith), is take to the nth knows the answer. degree the accountability of the individual Back Bencher, and therefore I do think there is an asymmetrical approach. In conclusion, the Government’s Bill is not perfect, The merit of the Government’s Bill is that at least it but something that most people could possibly support. adequately formalises the sanctions around criminal I will argue passionately and cogently against the misbehaviour and malfeasance, taking into account the amendments put forward by my hon. Friend the Member reforms, openness and transparency that have been in for Richmond Park, although I accept his bona fides in place since the expenses crisis. wanting to improve this Bill. We are pushing at an open door here. There is the danger that we will open a Pandora’s box. American congressmen can never really Nick de Bois: Is my hon. Friend not highlighting the look at the big picture, because as soon as they are case for the amendments of my hon. Friend the Member elected they are fundraising every two years. They can for Richmond Park (Zac Goldsmith)? He referred to never really look at the strategic overview for their Ministers being accountable for their actions in the country, district, county or state. I suspect that something past. The amendments introduce accountability to the like that might happen with the recall process here in people, whereas the Bill talks about accountability to that we will be constantly looking over our shoulders at the Houses of Parliament. the mad, bad and dangerous to know, the pernicious and vexatious, which is why I will abstain on Second Mr Jackson: Again, I have enormous respect for my Reading and argue vigorously against the amendments hon. Friend, but my big concern about the amendments of my hon. Friend the Member for Richmond Park. is mission creep. My right hon. Friend the Member for South Cambridgeshire (Mr Lansley) made the point that it seems peculiar to establish in legislation, by the 6.9 pm incorporation of those amendments, a system that we Conor Burns (Bournemouth West) (Con): It is a expressly do not want to be enacted. It is like saying, pleasure to be participating in the latter stages of this “We are just putting it in place just in case circumstances important debate and to follow my hon. Friend the arise where we have to use”— Member for Peterborough (Mr Jackson). We are distinguished members of a small group of resigned Zac Goldsmith: I think that everyone here who believes Parliamentary Private Secretaries to the former Northern in the recall of MPs would like to see a system that is Ireland Secretary, my right hon. Friend the Member not used a great deal. None of us wants to see MPs for North Shropshire (Mr Paterson). My hon. Friend slung out of this place on a daily basis. The idea is that might find that some of his views are echoed in my the threshold is low enough that it is possible to achieve speech. in extreme circumstances but high enough that it cannot It was a pleasure to listen to the speech made by my be abused in the way that many Members in this House right hon. Friend the Member for North West Hampshire fear it might be. (Sir George Young),the former Chief Whip and Patronage 853 Recall of MPs Bill21 OCTOBER 2014 Recall of MPs Bill 854

[Conor Burns] We hear that we are all the same and that the political class is useless, but all hon. Members must be visited in Secretary. His knowledgeable contribution showed how their surgeries almost every week by people in abject much he will be missed from the House after the general despair, and because of the two letters after our names, election. we are able to escalate their problems into the hands of Today is Parliament talking about Parliament. As I people who can sort them out. If we lose faith in this look up towards those who look down on us—literally place, we will deserve to fall into public contempt. I and metaphorically—I am conscious that I do not see assert that it is time for this Chamber to stand up again many of them. My hon. Friend the Member for Newton and bravely say to the British people, “This is the Abbot (Anne Marie Morris), who has just left the cockpit of parliamentary democracy in Britain. This is Chamber, referred to our being in a goldfish bowl, but where we resolve issues by debate and argument. This not many people are looking into this particular goldfish is a place that is populated by people who are motivated bowl. When we vote on bombing Syria or gassing by generous, good and decent instincts to do their best badgers, this place is surrounded by members of the for their country and their constituency.” public wishing to tell us their views. We find that our However, I assert that one of the reasons people have inboxes are full of e-mails and our correspondence rates disengaged from politics is that, as the late Tony Benn go up, but that has not happened in the build-up to once said, this place has swapped power for status. today’s debate. Members of Parliament are asked to go on television, but they are afraid to exercise the powers vested in them I am pleased to see my hon. Friend the Member for by their constituents in the Lobby and to stand up Clacton (Douglas Carswell) back in his place below the powerfully to the Executive. We have shuffled power off Gangway on the Opposition Benches. He reminded us to the European Union and to unelected quangos, to of the case of Winchester in 1997, which is probably people we do not elect and cannot remove. It is vital that one of the only times we have seen what a recall looks in the years ahead this House confidently starts to bring like. I declare an interest in that case—you may well some of those powers back to this place and to exercise remember it, Mr Speaker—because the Conservative them in the name of our constituents who sent us here. candidate in that Winchester by-election, who had been the Member for Winchester until the 1997 general election, I thought that the comment that the hon. Member was one Gerry Malone, who once held the very high for Foyle (Mark Durkan) made about Enoch Powell office of deputy chairman of the Conservative party having a good majority in his South Down seat because responsible for youth. It was Mr Malone who showed he tipped his hat to the local electorate was a novel one. his commitment to democracy by overturning the results I am not sure that rushing out, buying trilbies and of the Conservative student elections in which I was tipping them to our local electorates is the full solution elected as national chairman and by appointing my to the problem we find ourselves in. The hon. Gentleman successor. It was ironic that he called that a consultation also referred to Edmund Burke, and I am delighted that exercise, as he went on to find out what being on the the statue of that great conservative philosopher has wrong end of a consultation exercise felt like some years now been liberated from behind the bookshop in later in Winchester. St Stephen’s Hall, so that it can be seen as an inspiration to us all. It was Burke who said, in his famous speech to I am sorry that the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris his electors in Bristol, that we as Members of Parliament Bryant) is not in the Chamber. He made an eloquent owe our constituents our judgment above all else, and but characteristically depressing speech. A young man that we betray them and do not serve them if we from the sixth form of my old school, St Columba’s in sacrifice our judgment to their opinion. It is absolutely St Albans, is doing some work experience in my office right that during the course of a Parliament we in this this week. He told me with great pride that he had place will vote for unpopular measures. I remember a spotted an error in the hon. Gentleman’s speech, because few years ago—I have told this story before—telling there had been a reference to the Great Reform Act of Lady Thatcher that the Conservative party was 9% 1830, when it was, of course, of 1832. I am pleased that behind in the polls. She asked when the next election the standards of my old history teacher, Mr Byrne, are was, and I said that it was three and a half years away. alive and well in St Columba’s today. She said, “That’s not far enough behind at this stage.” Several hon. Members have talked about trust, which It is up to us as politicians to take decisions, confident goes to the heart of this matter, and the expenses in our judgments and confident that over time they will scandal. I viewed that scandal as a member of the be shown to be right. I will use the recent example of public. Like many Members who were first elected at same-sex marriage. I agonised over how to vote on that, the 2010 general election, I looked on in despair at what as a practising Catholic and as an openly gay man. If I happened during the expenses scandal. I understand had listened to those in my constituency whose voice that many in the House who lived through that experience was loudest, whose e-mail send button was pushed the are so scarred by it that they do not feel able to stand up most often, I would have gone into the Lobby to vote and say that it was a small minority of people who did against that legislation, but I decided that I owed them wrong and that those people were rightly punished. my judgment. Although I might not have earned their When a new regime is in place, it is wrong that this support on that, I am certain from their reaction afterwards House continues to sit back and take the flak for and from the line I took with them that I have earned something from the past. Members on both sides of the their respect. That, to me, is a much more important House who were first elected in 2010 believe that we aspiration than to be liked. have a mandate to restore the bond of trust between this place and the electorate, and we have tried to Zac Goldsmith: I thank my hon. Friend for giving achieve that through everything that we have done and way; he is making a powerful speech. On his point said in our constituencies. about gay marriage, would he have made a different 855 Recall of MPs Bill21 OCTOBER 2014 Recall of MPs Bill 856 decision, or felt obliged to vote differently, had there is this: is it possible to allow the public to trigger recall been in place a recall regime of the sort that I and for wrongdoing without that being abused so that it colleagues are proposing? strays into matters of conscience or towards constraining the public from deciding what is or is not wrongdoing? Conor Burns: That is a very good question. Some The Bill sets the offence at a level that leads to a hon. Ladies and Gentlemen in this Chamber have known custodial sentence or, in the context of this House, to a me for more than 20 years, yourself included, Mr Speaker, very long and severe sanction by the Standards Committee. along with my hon. Friend the Member for Clacton, Earlier, I posed the question of whether the public and they know that I have consistently put my principles would feel cheated when somebody did something that ahead of promotion. I would not have sacrificed the they felt was dreadful but that, in the view of the national chairmanship of the Conservative students to Committee and the processes of this House, did not oppose Maastricht in 1993, and I certainly would not lead to a suspension of sufficient time to allow them to go through the Lobby in this place for something I express themselves on the subject. That is at the heart of fundamentally did not believe in—it is a liberating the matter, and that is what we are agonising over. experience when one decides that. We have heard excellent speeches from, for instance, the hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan), who set the Zac Goldsmith: I would be interested to know why issue in the Northern Ireland context. That is a good my hon. Friend thinks that others might do that as a context in which to question how communities that are consequence of recall. What is it about this House that sometimes severely divided might seek to use the recall makes him feel that the existence of recall would enfeeble mechanism. Could it be misused in a way that undermines Parliament, as opposed to strengthening it in the way he people in doing what they should do, which is to act in has just demonstrated? line with their conscience? It is worth noting that the hon. Gentleman, for his part, felt that he could trust the Conor Burns: My hon. Friend has given me an excellent public, and felt that his predecessor would have been introduction to how I want to end my speech. I will able to rely on his public even as he was doing things support the Government’s Bill, which was ably introduced that they would not have agreed with, because they today by my right hon. Friend the Member for Tunbridge respected how and why he was doing them. Wells (Greg Clark)—not Angry of Tunbridge Wells, but moderate and very sensible of Tunbridge Wells. I look Sammy Wilson: Does the hon. Gentleman accept forward to the amendments from my hon. Friend the that all the conditions that have been attached to the Member for Richmond Park (Zac Goldsmith) in recall mechanism as regards the thresholds that have Committee, because I think that they need to be probed. to be met mean, to some extent, that those who are When I resigned from my role as PPS in order to vote supporting the amendments do not trust the public against a Bill which I fundamentally opposed and believed because they believe that they need to put in a lot of would damage Parliament, I did so in the knowledge safeguards to ensure that the public do not abuse the that that would lead to a sacrifice. As a friend of mine system? said at the time, “You’re a genius: you’ve established yourself as a person of principle over an issue that nobody really cares about.” I suppose that there was an Mr Stuart: That is a fair point. However, the public element of truth in that. What I want to know—my are not one thing, are they? The public are made up of a right hon. Friend the Member for North West Hampshire lot of individuals, and therefore one has to allow a made this point absolutely brilliantly—is how the certain collection of them to come together before amendments proposed by my hon. Friend the Member starting to suggest that a recall reflects a wider public for Richmond Park would enable the separation of opinion. Otherwise we stand the chance of very small sanction on personal probity issues from people taking numbers of people being able to trigger it. policy positions. In this House a Member must be able to take a policy decision, a difference of philosophical Mark Durkan: The thresholds that the hon. Member understanding on an issue, and be confident that they for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson) talks about would be will be judged on that over time at the next general in the hands of the public. The 5% premise petition, the election. Issues of personal conduct are completely 20% test petition, and then the referendum are all in separate. If my hon. Friend can convince me and others the hands of the public. that we can separate policy and probity, we will be open-minded in how we vote. Mr Stuart: The hon. Gentleman is right. That is why, although I will reflect on what I have heard today—I 6.20 pm am less sure than I was about supporting the amendments —my opinion is still that we should trust the public. We Mr Graham Stuart (Beverley and Holderness) (Con): want the public to trust us, and we need to trust them. It is a pleasure to follow so many powerful speeches, However, we need to ensure that we do not allow a tiny none more so than that just given by my hon. Friend the minority of the public to use recall in a way that most Member for Bournemouth West (Conor Burns). people, even in the area concerned, regard as untoward I have supported the efforts of my hon. Friend the and unreasonable, simply because it is there and they Member for Richmond Park (Zac Goldsmith) in bringing feel they can use it. If that small minority are feeling forward a vision of a recall controlled by the public, not powerless and think that their voice is not being heard, controlled, as it might be perceived, by Whips or by the they will pick up whatever instrument is to hand and Standards Committee, however well constituted. The seek to use it to propagate their case, which they no speech by my right hon. Friend the Member for South doubt feel strongly about. That balance is what we are Cambridgeshire (Mr Lansley) was telling. The question agonising about today. 857 Recall of MPs Bill21 OCTOBER 2014 Recall of MPs Bill 858

[Mr Graham Stuart] I do not know whether this has already been mentioned, but I accept that we are taking a risk. If we give the I try to look at this from the perspective of the public public the right of recall without any prior wrongdoing outside. They will wonder why we are putting so many having been proved, we do not know how it will be used barriers in the way of their deciding to exercise a right or what the pressures—political or otherwise—that may of recall and remove people from this place. As Chair of occur in coming years will do. I suggest, therefore, that the Education Committee, I am reminded that so many this process is a perfect candidate for a sunset clause, teachers, or certainly the teaching unions, appear to go whereby it would be trialled for a five-year Parliament. to such lengths to protect the worst-performing teachers It might be said that after giving the public the right of in the system even though, in every case, the teacher recall, there is no way this House would ever have the who is idle, has low standards or fails their pupils courage to take it back from them. I suggest, however, undermines morale in the staff room and all the hard that if that right ends up being used not for wrongdoing, work of most teachers in the school, and those elsewhere but to challenge Members on how they vote, this House who do so much to prioritise teachers. However, standing should then have the courage to do something about it. here in this Chamber, I guess I can recognise the sense It is not just proven wrongdoing that is of a criminal of, “If they come for one, they may come for all.” A character or that is so severe that a Member is suspended certain paranoia runs through us. for 21 days that upsets the public. If Members look at the data that WriteToThem, which is part of the Mr Stewart Jackson: My hon. Friend is making a TheyWorkForYoustable of internet tools, used to produce strong speech. I think that the answer to his reasonable its league table, they will see that an awful lot of colleagues question as to why some of us are challenging the from all parties appeared not to respond to constituents: received wisdom is that, to the best of my knowledge, they did not write back to or take care of them. It is up we have not heard an example of a Member—someone to the electorate to decide whether they are being properly who makes laws in this House—who is a criminal who served by a Member of Parliament. That is at the heart has not been subject either to disciplinary proceedings of the issue for those of us who wish to give the public or to a criminal sanction in the past 10 to 20 years. that right, and we hope, albeit in the spirit of optimism, I have not heard any such example. that it will be used in the right way.

Mr Stuart: My hon. Friend made a powerful speech. Ms Diane Abbott (Hackney North and Stoke Newington) At the heart of the issue is whether the public, with no (Lab): I support the Bill. Does the hon. Gentleman prior wrongdoing having been proved, can be trusted to accept that this is not about whether we trust the public, use this power without it being abused in order to but about the fact that for the past 50 years brave challenge Members on matters of conscience. I do not Members of Parliament have had to take positions that often speak up for the Liberal Democrats, but in this were in advance of public opinion on social issues such Parliament our coalition partners took an unpopular as homosexuality, hanging and race relations, for which decision on tuition fees as part of a coalition agreement they were later vindicated? that they thought was in the national interest. Members representing university towns may have taken that decision Mr Stuart: I take that point on board. For the entire even though they stood on that manifesto pledge. Following period during which I have been involved with the this debate, I am going to have to wrestle with the idea Conservative party, I have for ever been hearing how of whether I am confident that the proposed process old, out of touch and ludicrously right wing many of its would not have been used to turf out those MPs for members are. It was said that they would never select doing what they thought was right. It would be terrible anyone to stand for Parliament who did not accord with if the fear of recall were to influence not how Members their views. It turns out that whatever their views—in treat their constituents or work on their behalf, but how times past, if they had very strong views on capital they vote. That goes to the heart of the debate. punishment, they may have said in advance that they would only choose a candidate who believed in capital Zac Goldsmith: None of the Lib Dem Members with punishment—they eventually selected someone completely whom I have spoken believe they would have been different, because they respected that person and wanted recalled on the back of the tuition fee debacle. If recall to back them. I put it to the hon. Lady that I am not had been possible, it is more likely that they would have sure that the many people who have been mentioned thought twice about pledging such unrealistic and today would be disowned by their constituents for undeliverable things before an election. Under such a taking brave and unpopular decisions. They are quite regime, Members would have to think much more carefully likely to be backed in their local area, but I recognise about the promises they make. that we are taking a risk, which is why I suggested a sunset clause. Mr Stuart: My hon. Friend, as ever, makes a subtle and important point, which takes me back to the Mr Kevan Jones: That may possibly be the case. observation of my hon. Friend the Member for However, if a very well-financed individual or organisation Peterborough (Mr Jackson) about US Congressmen campaigned against a Member on subjects such as always looking over their shoulders because they are those mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for elected to serve only two-year terms. It is not entirely a Hackney North and Stoke Newington (Ms Abbott), the bad thing, however, that MPs are always looking over Member would have to go through the recall process. our shoulders to ensure that we communicate to our Even if the MP were re-elected, they would have had to constituents why we are doing what we are doing and spend all their time on that. I am sure a lot of people why we have made certain promises and voted in certain would be put off from raising principled issues that ways. have changed life in this country for the better. 859 Recall of MPs Bill21 OCTOBER 2014 Recall of MPs Bill 860

Mr Stuart: The argument against the amendments of trust the public to do the right thing. If we do that, they my hon. Friend the Member for Richmond Park is that will feel that we have given them a say in judging powerful interests would come along and act. It always whether or not we have done wrong. strikes me that the vulnerability of British politics to money is tremendous; yet I suggest that the cases in which it is abused are remarkably few and far between, 6.34 pm notwithstanding the righteous efforts of the hon. Gentleman Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab): to highlight those he comes across. I simply ask him On behalf of the Opposition, I will respond to the why we should not give this a chance for a Parliament. debate and place on the record our position on recall. If the public in a local area was of the opinion that there had been an abuse, people would be able to divine I am disappointed that the Deputy Prime Minister who was behind such an attempt and see through what has not joined us at any point in this debate. His name is was behind it, even if the person named as bringing it on the Bill, but he has not chosen to come to the House forward was a front person. Time will tell: we perhaps today. We have, however, heard thoughtful speeches need to give it a chance to find out whether that is true from Members on both sides of the House, and I shall or not. touch briefly on four or five of them. The hon. Member for Cities of London and Westminster Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab): I support the (Mark Field) asked whether the public and, indeed, principles behind the Bill. The hon. Gentleman must be Parliament had confidence in the Standards Committee. aware that over the years there have been systematic We share his concerns and believe that there is a compelling intense media campaigns against Members of the House— argument for reforming the composition of the Committee Tam Dalyell, Tony Benn and others—as can be seen on a cross-party basis. just from reading the newspaper headlines of the time. The right hon. Member for South Cambridgeshire It is quite conceivable that a media campaign with a (Mr Lansley) spoke eloquently and at some length. He huge amount of money behind it could succeed in made the point, rightly, that vexatious recall petitions getting rid of a Member of Parliament who was taking might be used to destabilise a Government. That is not unpopular decisions. That is big money: it might not be something that we wish to see. He also said that MPs big money paid to individuals, but it is big money who voted for or against military action or going to war influencing public opinion. might face recall. If the lessons of the last century, and of 1914 in particular, teach us anything, it is that public Mr Stuart: Ultimately, however, it would not be the opinion might be in one place at the start of a conflict, press barons but our electorates who decided. If the but in a different place by the end of it. The courageous hon. Gentleman is saying that our electorates are easily MPs on both sides of the House who took a stance moulded by the tabloid press, I point out that the public against the war in 1914 would undoubtedly have faced a would decide, not the press barons. That goes back to recall petition. the earlier point that this is about trusting the public to My hon. Friend the Member for Coventry South exercise their judgment and come to the right conclusion. (Mr Cunningham) made the brief but important observation that we are representatives, not delegates. That is a position that the Opposition fully support. Chris Bryant: Is not the truth that the people we are talking about—Leo Abse, Sydney Silverman, David The right hon. Member for North West Hampshire Steel and, for that matter, people from previous generations, (Sir George Young), apart from a three-week sabbatical such as Plimsoll—all enhanced their reputation with in 2012, served for four years as Leader of the House the public even though they advanced unpopular causes? and Chief Whip. He was perhaps, therefore, more than It would be exactly the same today. anybody else, the midwife of the Bill. He spoke eloquently about whether it is a cause or a conduct that we are trying to regulate. Like the right hon. Member for Mr Stuart: I tend to agree. There is an idea that South Cambridgeshire, he warned about the possibility powerful outside forces will pick on a Member of of destabilising campaigns. Parliament, but as many Members have commented, whatever the public disgust with MPs in general—rightly The right hon. Member for North West Hampshire or wrongly—people tend to have a much higher opinion also spoke about the role of the Standards Committee. I of the MP in their own area. If such an MP was under asked a question of the House of Commons Library threat for doing his or her job and for bravely standing and, with its usual efficiency, it responded to me during up for what he or she thinks is right, I would trust local the course of the debate. There have been 15 occasions people to send out the strong message that they will when the Standards Committee has recommended have no truck with such efforts to destabilise and remove suspension. On not one of those occasions has the the MP. There would be risks, as there always are, but at House sought to overturn the recommendation of the least the decision would rest with the public in the Committee. That suggests that the House gets it right constituency, who would ultimately decide the MP’s on suspensions. fate. Finally, the hon. Member for Bournemouth West We are where we are, and there is a crisis at least of (Conor Burns) made a powerful and eloquent speech. I public trust, although not of Parliament. My hon. hope that we will see more of him in the Chamber Friend the Member for Broxbourne (Mr Walker) made during the Committee stage. a powerful speech on the importance of speaking up for The Opposition will support the Government in the Parliament and about the fact that Parliament works, Lobby this evening if there is a Division. As has been whatever problems people may have with parties or said several times, there was a commitment to introduce individual MPs. None the less, I think that we need to recall in the Labour party manifesto, as well as in the 861 Recall of MPs Bill21 OCTOBER 2014 Recall of MPs Bill 862

[Thomas Docherty] My constituency has suffered from the issue of probity, and I will explain why for those Members who may not Conservative and Liberal Democrat manifestos. In the be familiar with the situation. Shortly after being elected coalition’s programme for government, the Prime Minister as the Member of the Scottish Parliament for the and Deputy Prime Minister stated jointly: constituency of Dunfermline in 2011, Bill Walker was “We will bring forward early legislation to introduce a power revealed to have repeatedly assaulted a number of women of recall, allowing voters to force a by-election where an MP is in his family over 30 years. In August 2013 he was found to have engaged in serious wrongdoing and having had a convicted of 23 counts of domestic violence against petition calling for a by-election signed by 10% of his or her three of his ex-wives, and one count of violence against constituents.” his stepdaughter. In the case of his stepdaughter, such Given that this is the fifth year of a five-year Parliament, was the level of violence that he broke a frying pan over I wonder what happened to the “early legislation” part her head. However, my constituents were powerless to of that promise. I am sure that the Deputy Leader of remove Bill Walker from his £60,000 a year job because the House will have a good answer when he responds. the law as it currently stands requires a sentence of a We think that the Bill can be strengthened in a year and a day in custody before disqualification. The number of ways. We will set out our exact amendments maximum sentence that the Sheriff Court could hand in the next few days. However, I will talk briefly about out—and which indeed was given—was exactly one two issues: the principle of recall and whether the year. Only after a tenacious campaign by the Dunfermline provision should be extended to the holders of other Press newspaper did Mr Walker bow to public pressure public offices. There is cross-party support for the principle and resign. that where it can be shown that serious wrongdoing has I place on record my thanks to the Dunfermline Press occurred, the public should have the right to remove for the public service it performed. That was an excellent their representatives between elections. The public have example of a local newspaper providing leadership in a right to expect that those elected to represent constituents its community, but it should not be the responsibility of behave with probity. Where an elected representative a newspaper to take on that role. Parliament should be has fallen well below the standard expected of the acting now to ensure that no constituency is in that person holding office, it is unacceptable that they should ridiculous situation again, and that is why Labour supports be allowed to continue in office for up to five years the Bill. We believe that where there is clear evidence of without challenge. serious wrongdoing, the public have a right to remove and replace their MP. Equally, however, we do not support allowing vexatious or purely political attempts by well-funded vested interest We agree with those who argue that the Bill does not groups to subvert the democratic will of the people, and go far enough. It would not have captured any MPs we are concerned at the suggestion that recall could be embroiled in the 1990s cash for questions scandal, it triggered without genuine wrongdoing having occurred. does not reform the standards procedure, and the scope It is not enough to dislike how a Member of Parliament is so narrowly drawn that provisions for recall cannot be has voted, and we will therefore consider carefully any extended to other elected representatives. For example, amendments that widen the scope for recall. We are if a councillor is found to have committed a serious clear, however, that the trigger for recall should be a breach of the local authority code of conduct, why do Member’s conduct, not the expression of an opinion the Government not propose that their constituents with which some constituents disagree. also have the right to recall them? There is a long and noble tradition of parliamentary Will the Deputy Leader of the House explain why the pioneers, and the society we take for granted today was Bill makes no provision for councillors, or indeed for achieved only through a democratic struggle that stretched police and crime commissioners, and will he update us over 350 years. I am personally a great admirer of on what progress—if any—has been made in talks with Charles James Fox, whose statue guards the public the Scottish Government on devolving this power to entrance to St Stephen’s Lobby. Fox was a thorn in the Holyrood? Why does the Bill not cover the three devolved side of George III and many of his Prime Ministers. He Assemblies in Cardiff, Belfast and London? was a campaigner against slavery and the slave trade. The Opposition support the Bill’s rather belated He fought for religious tolerance and personal freedom, appearance. We look forward to working across the and he opposed both the principle and conduct of the House to strengthen the Bill further, so that we can war with the colonies in North America. There is little ensure that the final legislation is both robust and doubt, however, that Charles James Fox would have commands public confidence. faced a recall petition on more than one occasion if the proposals set out by the hon. Member for Richmond 6.44 pm Park (Zac Goldsmith) had been adopted at that time. There are equally great parliamentary reformers from The Deputy Leader of the House of Commons (Tom the last 50 years. As the hon. Member for Peterborough Brake): We have had an impassioned debate and I am (Mr Jackson) said, Leo Abse was one such MP. Along very grateful to all hon. Members for their contributions. with Lord Arran, he was a great champion of the I will do my best in the time remaining to address as decriminalisation of homosexuality. After Humphrey many of the points raised, but I think that will prove Berkeley lost his seat in 1966, Leo Abse took up the challenging. private Member’s Bill that ultimately led to the change As we have seen, there are many different views on in the law. What would have happened to Leo Abse—or ways in which we ought to hold MPs to account. For indeed other parliamentary supporters—if recall had some, this does not require a recall system at all. For been available in 1967? I fear that some of those brave others, a recall system should be available on any grounds and forward-looking MPs would have been recalled. and at any time. All three parties committed to a recall 863 Recall of MPs Bill21 OCTOBER 2014 Recall of MPs Bill 864 system in their manifestos and it was included in the only 40 times in the past 100 years. However, the figures coalition’s programme for government. MPs are elected I have are that in 2014 alone, and in California alone, to serve a term of five years and we believe they should there have been 30 recall petitions initiated at different continue to have the freedoms to carry out their job and levels of government. It is not a process that happens make difficult decisions where necessary. However, only once in a while; it happens regularly. He also the Government think it important to fill a gap in the challenged the Government’s estimate that a constituency current accountability of MPs by providing assurance referendum would cost about £90,000. If he has a different that where an MP has been found guilty of serious figure, I would like to see it, but I stand by ours. wrongdoing—whether serving a prison sentence for The hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) raised committing a crime or a long period of suspension from an interesting point about whether courts would give an the House for breaching the MPs code of conduct—the MP a lesser sanction than others found guilty of a public will have a chance to have their say on whether similar offence. On the contrary, I wonder whether they the MP should continue to represent them. might not impose a higher sanction. It would be a much better situation if there were no The hon. Member for Broxbourne (Mr Walker) made instances of wrongdoing that engage the triggers in the a balanced and sensible contribution. He thinks that Bill, but where MPs commit serious wrongdoing, whether perhaps MPs have lost respect because we have given in the eyes of the law or the House of Commons, under too many powers away, but often one of people’s greatest the Government’s Bill they will be subject to a recall concerns about Westminster is that we are holding on to petition, We hope we have struck a middle ground by far too many powers, as opposed to giving too many providing sensible and balanced proposals for a recall away—or at least that we are not giving powers away in mechanism aimed at addressing wrongdoing. Our proposals the right places by pushing down the decision-making aim to provide a robust, fair and open process that is process. suitable for our system of parliamentary democracy. The hon. Member for Clacton (Douglas Carswell) In the time that remains, I will try to address some of referred rather disparagingly to Westminster grandees the comments, concerns and criticisms that were raised. and the lay people on the Standards Committee. I The hon. Member for Liverpool, West Derby (Stephen should perhaps declare an interest in that I know one of Twigg) and the hon. Member for Dunfermline and the lay people, Sharon Darcy, who is also a leading light West Fife (Thomas Docherty), in the Opposition’s opening in my local citizens advice bureau, and in no way is she and summing-up speeches, referred to cash for questions. a Westminster grandee, and nor would she have her I think the suggestion was that cash for questions would views pressurised by anyone in this place, be they Whips not be covered under the Government’s proposals. That or anyone else. He also drew some parallels between is not correct. Cash for questions would clearly constitute trusting a jury and trusting the electorate, but my hon. a breach of the code of conduct. It would therefore be Friend the Member for Eastleigh (Mike Thornton), perfectly in order for the Standards Committee to consider who is no longer in his place, intervened to point out the matter and recommend a duration of suspension that there must be something to answer for before that could lead to a recall. reaching the jury stage, which is not the case in relation The hon. Member for Richmond Park (Zac Goldsmith) to the proposals from the hon. Member for Richmond made a number of points. He suggested that the Bill sets Park. back democracy because its scope is too narrow. That is not the Government’s view. The concerns we have about Mr Stewart Jackson: Last weekend, in response to his proposals—this point was not picked up by him, or the hon. Member for Clacton (Douglas Carswell), the by any of the supporters of his proposals—relate to the Prime Minister agreed that the Government would look 5% petitions: the initial stage where, as far as I understand at the amendments, yet the Deputy Leader of the it, people or campaigns could spend as much as they House seems to be setting his face against them. Do the wanted on drumming up support that could then be Government intend to table amendments accepting transferred or translated into the starting point of the the central premise of the amendments proposed by my petition process. That issue needs to be addressed and hon. Friend the Member for Richmond Park (Zac he did not respond to it. As I understand it, when he Goldsmith)? and colleagues had an initial discussion on this, the right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis) Tom Brake: Both the Prime Minister and the Deputy raised the need to address it because he had identified Prime Minister have indicated that the Bill could be that it was a problem in the Californian system. As I improved and that we are willing to listen to proposals, understand it, this is not a matter that has been addressed but that does not necessarily mean adopting the proposals in the amendments proposed by the hon. Member for from the hon. Member for Richmond Park. Richmond Park. The right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden The hon. Gentleman referred repeatedly to the threshold said we were better off trusting our own constituents. of 14,000 or 15,000 people to achieve the 20%. That is Like all Members, of course I trust mine, but it is not true, but I think that in most constituencies the process the constituents who are the issue; it is the campaign of initiating the 5% petition—the indication of the need groups and vexatious individuals who might decide to for a petition—will be used again and again, rather than launch repeated recall petitions with no basis, as opposed people necessarily raising the 20% required for a referendum. to challenging MPs because they have committed serious The hon. Gentleman said that we are all susceptible wrongdoing. to the pressures of newspapers. That is exactly the point The hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar about how the process of starting the initial petition, (Mr MacNeil)was worried that people who had been the indication of the 5%, will be used. He referred to the detained in a police station might be caught by the Bill. fact that in America recall has apparently been used Clearly, that would not be the case in any circumstances. 865 Recall of MPs Bill21 OCTOBER 2014 Recall of MPs Bill 866

[Tom Brake] it. That might well include introducing measures that increase the role of the lay members and ensure that The word “detention”is designed to capture circumstances their views are properly represented. where an MP, having been convicted and sentenced, is My hon. Friend the Member for Eastleigh pointed ordered to serve their sentence somewhere other than in out, quite rightly, that in some states in the US, after a a prison—for example, a young offenders institution or recall petition, rather than a member of another party a hospital. being elected someone from the same party is appointed I welcome the very rational comments from my hon. to replace them. To draw too many parallels with the Friend the Member for Cities of London and Westminster US is not very helpful. (Mark Field) on the EU and immigration—I am just sorry they will not do him any good. I wonder, however, whether in three years he might not feel that it is his Mr Redwood: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way? party that has deserted him and that instead of him leaving his party, he should stay put and other people Tom Brake: I will not give way, as I still want to should move to another party. respond to a couple of speeches. I understand why the hon. Member for Newton Mark Field: I can confirm that I will not be joining Abbot (Anne Marie Morris) is proposing her amendment, the Liberal Democrats. but, in an intervention, the hon. Member for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson), who is not his place, pointed Tom Brake: I was not suggesting that was what the out that simply having the name of the sponsor is not a hon. Gentleman had in mind; I was thinking he might solution as any vexatious individual or campaign can set up a party called the “One Nation Conservative party”. replace it with another when they need to. The hon. Member for Cleethorpes (Martin Vickers) spoke about Mr Redwood: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way? the need to balance the rights of individuals with the risk of vexatious campaigns. Tom Brake: I need to make some progress. We were very fortunate to have a contribution from The right hon. Member for Holborn and St Pancras another past Leader of the House, my right hon. Friend (Frank Dobson) gave a very blunt critique of the Bill, the Member for North West Hampshire (Sir George which as a Member who is leaving the House he is Young), who pointed out succinctly that much of the perhaps in a better place to do than others. debate is about cause and conduct. He comes down, as I The hon. Member for South Dorset (Richard Drax) do, on the side of this being about conduct, or misconduct, asked how we restore faith in this place and was of the not cause. The hon. Member for Peterborough (Mr Jackson) view that recall will not help. My view is that it will and, made the same point about cause or conduct. in fact, when the Political and Constitutional Reform The hon. Member for Bournemouth West (Conor Committee considered the issue and commissioned a Burns) said, to summarise his speech, that it was time poll, it found that the public do not understand why for us to grasp the controls in the cockpit of democracy. MPs can continue to sit if they have committed a I would fully support that. serious crime and it also found that a massive nine out of 10 people thought that MPs who committed a serious Finally, the hon. Member for Beverley and Holderness crime should face a recall. (Mr Stuart) said that the public feel cheated about the extra hurdles that he suggested we are putting in people’s Mr Redwood: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way? way. However, I would say that the issue is more with the proposals made by the hon. Member for Richmond Hon. Members: Give way! Park. They contain more hurdles, and the time it would take to complete them is longer than that proposed by Tom Brake: I am sorry, but I am not going to give the Government. way. I want to pick up on a couple of points that were I welcome the support of the hon. Member for made by Members who were present during the debate. Dunfermline and West Fife (Thomas Docherty) for the The hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) made Bill on Second Reading and we make no apologies for the point that hon. Members should be protected in the time it has taken to introduce the Bill. I would prefer doing their duties in this House. I am not sure that the that we had decent, well-researched legislation than amendments he is supporting will enable that to happen. rushed legislation. He referred to police and crime I was pleased that we had two contributions from commissioners and councillors. Clearly, the Government expert former Leaders of the House. My right hon. Friend will want to consider them in the future, but they do not the Member for South Cambridgeshire (Mr Lansley) fall within the scope of the Bill. He also referred to the put his finger on it immediately when he said that the situation in Scotland, but this is clearly a matter on issue is with Members being subject to a notice of intent which the Scottish parties need to get agreement. to recall and the damage that is associated with that. He To sum up, I reiterate that the Bill is about providing also asked a specific question about the Standards public accountability when there have been proven cases Committee. I certainly agree with him that the disciplinary of wrongdoing. I have tried to address the points that procedures of the House must be robust and I welcome have been raised. The Bill proposes a recall system that the review that a sub-committee of the Standards is open and fair and that fits with our unique constitutional Committee is undertaking to consider its disciplinary system and I commend the Bill to the House. procedures. These matters are for the House as a whole, but the Government would certainly support any Question put and agreed to. amendments to the procedure that Members felt improved Bill accordingly read a Second time. 867 Recall of MPs Bill 21 OCTOBER 2014 868

Mr Speaker: Order. Before I come to the programme Programming committee motion and ask a Minister or Whip to move it, I should tell the House that there is an error on the Order Paper (7) Standing Order No.83B (Programming committees) shall not in that the words “remaining new clauses” should have apply to proceedings in Committee of the whole House, to any proceedings on Consideration or to proceedings on Third appeared after the words “Clauses 21 to 25” under the Reading business for the third day. Other proceedings (8) Any other proceedings on the Bill 9including any procee3dings on consideration of Lords Amendments or on any RECALL OF MPS BILL: PROGRAMME further messages from the Lords) may be programmed. Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 83A(7)), RECALL OF MPS BILL: MONEY That the following provisions shall apply to the Recall of MPs Queen’s recommendation signified. Bill: Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No.52(1)(a), Committal (1) The Bill shall be committed to a Committee of the whole House. That, for the purposes of an Act resulting from the Recall of MPs Bill, it is expedient to authorise: Proceedings in Committee (2) Proceeding in Committee of the whole House shall be completed (1) the payment out of the Consolidated Fund of sums required in three days. by a Minister of the Crown for making payments to petition (3) the proceedings shall be taken on the days shown in the first officers relating to their functions under or by virtue of the Act; column of the following Table and in the order so shown. and (4) The proceedings shall (so far as not previously concluded) be (2) the payment of sums into the Consolidated Fund.—(Mel brought to a conclusion at the times specified in the second column of Stride.) the Table. Question agreed to. Table Proceedings Time for conclusion of proceedings Business without Debate First day Clauses 1 to 5, new clauses The moment of interruption on SITTINGS OF THE HOUSE and new Schedules relating the first day Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing to how an MP becomes Order No. 25), subject to a recall That this House at its rising on Thursday 12 February 2015, do Second day adjourn until Monday 23 February 2015.—(Mel Stride.) Clause 6, Schedule 1, The moment of interruption on Question agreed to. Clauses 7 to 10, Schedule 2, the second day Clauses 11 to 13, new Clauses and new Schedules DELEGATED LEGISLATION relating to the recall Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing petition process (except any Order No. 118(6)), relating to the determination of the NATIONAL HEALTH SERVICE success of a recall petition, That the draft Health and Social Care Act 2008 (Regulated the effect of a successful Activities) Regulations 2014, which were laid before this House recall petition, or financial on 7 July, be approved.—(Mel Stride.) controls) Third day Question agreed to. Clauses 14 and 15, new The moment of interruption on Motion made and Question put forthwith (Standing Clauses and new Schedules the third day Order No. 118(6)), relating to the determination of the INDEPENDENT PARLIAMENTARY STANDARDS AUTHORITY success of a recall petition That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying or the effect of a successful that Her Majesty will appoint Professor Sir Ian Kennedy to the recall petition, Clause 16, office of Chair of the Independent Parliamentary Standards Schedules 3 to 5, Clause 17, Authority from the end of his current term until 1 June 2016.—(Mel new Clauses and new Stride.) Schedules relating to The Speaker’s opinion as the to the decision of the financial controls, Clauses Question being challenged, the Division is deferred until 18 to 20, Schedule 6, clauses 21 to 25, remaining new tomorrow. (Standing Order No. 41A). Clauses, remaining new Schedules, remaining EUROPEAN UNION DOCUMENTS proceedings on the Bill Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Consideration and Third Order No. 119(11)), Reading (5) Any proceedings on Consideration shall (so far as not EU GENERAL BUDGET 2015: DRAFT BUDGET previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion one hour That this House takes note of European Union Documents before the moment of interruption on the day on which those No. 10340/14, a draft Amending Budget No. 3/2014 to the proceedings are commenced. General Budget 2014, No. 10341/14, a draft Decision on the (6) Proceedings on Third Reading shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion at the moment of mobilisation of the Contingency Margin in 2014, No. SEC (2014) interruption on the day. 357, Statement of Estimates of the Commission for 2015: Preparation of the 2015 Draft Budget, Documents I-IV, No. 10946/14, a draft 869 Business without Debate 21 OCTOBER 2014 870

Decision on the mobilisation of the EU Solidarity Fund, and High Speed 2 (Compensation) No. 10947/14, a draft Decision on the mobilisation of the Flexibility Instrument; agrees with the Government that at a time of ongoing Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House economic fragility in Europe and tight constraints on domestic do now adjourn.—(Mel Stride.) public spending, it is essential that the European Union budget reflects the consolidation efforts of Member States to bring the 7.3 pm levels of deficits and debt onto a more sustainable path; notes that the Council position on the 2015 Draft Budget respects the Mrs Cheryl Gillan (Chesham and Amersham) (Con): seven year Multi-Annual Financial Framework agreement for I am grateful for the opportunity to raise the issue of 2014-20, secured by the Prime Minister in 2013, which delivers an compensation for those adversely affected by High Speed 2. unprecedented real-terms reduction compared with the 2007-13 I thank colleagues for being here alongside me, as well period in addition to protecting the UK rebate; calls on the as those who were unable to attend but have contacted Government to continue its efforts to limit the size of the EU budget by pressing for necessary restraint and discipline in the my office. Since its announcement, and in common with budget negotiations in autumn 2014 and beyond, in order to get others such as my right hon. Friends the Members for the best deal for UK taxpayers; and agrees that further reform of Aylesbury (Mr Lidington) and for Buckingham (John the budget is necessary over the longer term.—(Mel Stride.) Bercow), I have received numerous representations from Question agreed to. people affected by HS2. The theme, I am afraid, is a common one: despair at the current compensation arrangements and a feeling of powerlessness from people PETITION who think they cannot influence the process. Since HS2’s announcement, I have consistently pushed Traffic Calming Measures on Glentworth Road East in for a fair and generous compensation package. Sadly, Westgate despite six public consultations and four years of anxiety for my constituents in Chesham and Amersham and for 7.2 pm other colleagues’ constituents, the current proposals for David Morris (Morecambe and Lunesdale) (Con): I compensation remain as inadequate as ever. However, am pleased to present this petition on behalf of almost before the Government’s announcement of their response all the residents who live on Glentworth Road East in to the latest consultation, I wanted to give the Minister Westgate in my constituency. This campaign has been one more chance finally to listen to people and to put spearheaded by Mr Kevin Hyde, whom I met to discuss things right. the issues. I then joined him in taking his petition to all There have been promises from Ministers. The overriding his neighbours. What astounded me was the support I principle of this project ought to be that no one should received from every household I visited for more traffic- have to suffer a financial penalty or be trapped in their calming measures on this residential road. Glentworth home because of HS2. That view is shared by many of Road East is directly opposite an industrial area called us, including my hon. Friend the Member for Ruislip, Whiteland and workers often use the residential road Northwood and Pinner (Mr Hurd), who is currently on for parking. This narrows the road considerably while paternity leave but who would otherwise have been also narrowing the pavements. There have been lots of present. Unfortunately, the reality shows that that is not near misses on this stretch and sometimes even mothers the case. Some properties have been on the market for with babies in prams are unable to use the pavement. years, and people are trapped and unable to move on The residents want a residents-only parking scheme. with their lives. The road has also become a short-cut for speeding cars Notwithstanding those ministerial promises, the that are trying to avoid the speed camera on the main compensation schemes to date have been woefully derisory, road. That, coupled with the narrowing of the road, is and people are facing substantial financial loss. The extremely dangerous, so the residents want a one-way Transport Secretary promised that compensation would system, too. I urge the House to support my call on be “full and fair” for “those most directly affected”, and Lancashire county council to act and introduce some the Prime Minister told me personally that compensation traffic-calming measures in that area. schemes would be “generous and fair”. Given that other Following is the full text of the petition: major infrastructure projects are in the pipeline, it is time for a rethink on compensation. I hope that the [The Petition of members of the community in Minister will respond positively, with the aim of introducing Morecambe, fairer arrangements. Declares that the Petitioners believe that there should be traffic calming measures introduced on Glentworth Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab): I Road East and also parking restrictions imposed. appreciated the fact that when members of the HS2 The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Committee visited Coventry and Kenilworth, they allowed Commons urges the Government to encourage Lancashire me to accompany them and explain the situation to County Council to take steps to support the residents in some of my constituents. As for the question of negative Morecambe and to ensure that measures are introduced equity—I know that the right hon. Lady will agree with to stop speeding and dangerous parking in Westgate. me about this—some people in the Coventry area who have invested their life savings will not qualify for any And the Petitioners remain, etc.] form of compensation. [P001390] Mrs Gillan: The hon. Gentleman has made a very valid point, and I shall say more about it shortly. There are problems with the current compensation proposals. They will compensate only about 2% of those who live within 1 km of HS2, or within 250 metres 871 High Speed 2 (Compensation)21 OCTOBER 2014 High Speed 2 (Compensation) 872 from a tunnel. As the hon. Gentleman has just pointed many areas. There has been little transparency in this out, despite widespread evidence of blight, the vast process. The latest proposals—the alternative cash offer majority of people affected by HS2 will not be compensated and the home owner payment—offer poor value to the fairly, because the Government have consistently linked taxpayer and involve arbitrary sums that bear little the scheme to distance from the line and have ignored relation to the actual loss suffered by the individual. the wider effects. HS2 Action Alliance has calculated that only about 172,000 people will receive any kind of Nigel Adams (Selby and Ainsty) (Con): I support the compensation, although more than a million live within principle of the alternative cash offer for those living 1 km of HS2 and many are being adversely affected. within 120 metres, but the scheme simply does not work for those living beyond that line. Does my right hon. Frank Dobson (Holborn and St Pancras) (Lab): In Friend understand the concerns of my constituent, my area, around Euston, people will be living next to Mr Watson from Church Fenton, who e-mailed me the biggest construction site in Europe for 10 or 15 years. earlier today to say that he was not at all happy to lose They will be living within a yard of the works. However, £95,000 from the value of his property? He described it they will be entitled to no compensation at all. As the as writing a cheque to the Government for £95,000 only right hon. Lady will know, uncertainty is a major source to receive a Government refund of £7,500. That is of blight. The revised proposals for Euston were supposed neither full nor fair. to be presented next month, but that has now been postponed until after the general election. Mrs Gillan: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Phase 2 will affect his constituency, and the problems that we Mrs Gillan: The right hon. Gentleman and I have are having with phase 1 will come back to haunt us all stood shoulder to shoulder across the House on this on phase 2, so it is good that he is raising these matters issue. There is no party divide on it. I know that my early on behalf of his constituents. He is absolutely right hon. Friend the Member for Uxbridge and South right to suggest that the alternative cash offer applies Ruislip (Sir John Randall) is similarly concerned, as are only to a limited number of home owners. As the many other colleagues. The point is well made. payment is based on a 10% loss and is capped at a According to estimates in data commissioned by the maximum of £100,000, it is completely unreflective of Government from PricewaterhouseCoopers, the average the true loss in property value. It is not a strong enough loss to a homeowner is 20% up to 500 metres from the incentive for people to stay in their homes. line, 30% up to 300 metres away, and 40% up to 120 metres away. Moreover, that blight is not temporary. PwC says Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con): May I return for a that it will be at its worst until at least 2023. The moment to the exceptional hardship scheme? A constituent Government have failed to recognise that, or the fact of mine, having arrived at a value that was supposed to that the scale of suffering extends well beyond the line be fair, was then asked by HS2 to reduce the figure by itself. £20,000 so that it could get the property into a rentable state. That is neither fair nor reasonable. As things stand, there is not even sufficient compensation for those living above tunnels. HS2 Ltd believes that home owners are not unduly affected by tunnels, but my Mrs Gillan: My hon. Friend’s example speaks for right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Kenilworth itself. and Southam (Jeremy Wright), for example, informs me that the property market in his constituency tells a very Mr Dominic Grieve (Beaconsfield) (Con): I wholly different story. There is no compensation for those endorse what my right hon. Friend is saying. The fact is affected by construction, although it will inevitably be that many people in my constituency have homes of very extensive in impact and duration. Constituents of very high value, but the compensation bears absolutely my right hon. Friend the Member for Aylesbury no relationship to the investment that they have made in (Mr Lidington) in Wendover and Stoke Mandeville live purchasing the home, or to the fact that in many cases very close to the safeguarded area and the proposed the properties are heavily mortgaged and that their construction sites, but they do not qualify for compensation losses will be colossal—running into millions of pounds under the boundary rules. It is grossly unfair that they in many cases. should be expected to endure the disturbance of construction and operation as well as putting up with a Mrs Gillan: My right hon. and learned Friend makes loss of value to their properties unless they can prove an an important point. Those people have worked hard, exceptional need to sell. Some of my right hon. Friend’s saved and invested in those properties. constituents say that estate agents simply refuse to place their properties on the market and that potential purchasers Sir William Cash (Stone) (Con): My right hon. Friend have been refused any mortgage on properties because is making an excellent speech. Those of us who are of HS2. This is emblematic of the broad injustice of the between Birmingham and Manchester are extremely current compensation measures. glad that we are going to have the opportunity to The compensation schemes announced and operating petition and to have our case heard by the High Speed to date are also problematic. The exceptional hardship Rail (London - West Midlands) Bill Select Committee, scheme and the need to sell schemes have been arduous and we are grateful to her for everything she has done. and complicated for many of our constituents, and in my view they are often wholly unjust. The lack of Mrs Gillan: I thank my hon. Friend. I glad to see that consistency in the decision-making process has been the Chairman of the Committee, my hon. Friend the incredibly frustrating for those involved, and the accuracy Member for Poole (Mr Syms), is in his place. I note of valuations has been the subject of contention in that there are many hon. Members here tonight, and 873 High Speed 2 (Compensation)21 OCTOBER 2014 High Speed 2 (Compensation) 874

[Mrs Gillan] Secondly, the “need to sell” scheme needs revising to remove the financial hardship criteria to allow those I welcome those who have just come into the Chamber. who are unable to sell their properties because of HS2 It is important to put these points to the Minister in as to be free to move. Thirdly, the boundaries of the forceful a way as possible. voluntary purchase scheme should be widened to a The home owner payment scheme proposes to give distance greater than the 120 metres, reflecting the true home owner payments to those living between 120 metres levels of blight and to match the payments actually and 300 metres from the line. This once again limits made under HS1. compensation by distance from the line. It also does Fourthly, the whole compensation package should little to assist the functionality of the property market take into proper account blight in urban areas, over in affected areas. The payments on offer are too low tunnels, and those who will suffer extensive construction and, as the effect of inflation is not considered, they disruption. In particular, the Treasury should reconsider might be inaccurate as well. once again the possibility of introducing stamp duty exemptions for affected properties to re-stimulate the Like other colleagues, I have many farmers and property market. landowners in my constituency, and none of the schemes Finally, if this project ever reaches its construction properly addresses the impact of HS2 on them. I deal phase it will cause blight and disruption still to be with a number of organisations, including the Country identified. I believe that to protect my constituents, and Land and Business Association and the National Farmers all our constituents who are affected by HS2, we need Union, that are campaigning hard to ensure that affected an additional safeguard. I propose that the construction landowners receive fair and timely compensation, and I code should be added to the Bill in order to implement hope the Minister understands the special problems a binding and comprehensive duty of care that sets facing farmers and growers. He is a farmer himself, so standards and time scales for the conduct of HS2, its I am hoping for that special understanding. contractors and sub-contractors during construction. An independent ombudsman should be appointed to Mrs Caroline Spelman (Meriden) (Con): I am sure adjudicate swiftly on abuses and with powers to compensate my right hon. Friend is aware that for many farmers the those adversely affected. difficulty is that they are compensated at agricultural The current £50 billion budget for HS2 is currently prices, but where land is taken beyond the actual being paid by the taxpayer, but it is also being paid at requirements for the track, there is of course speculative the expense of those who will suffer as a result of this value in that land, and does she agree that it is important project. Government have a duty of care to ensure that that land-take is kept to a minimum? those blighted by this highly disruptive infrastructure project are fully and appropriately compensated. A failure to do so is not only insulting, but also sets a Mrs Gillan: My right hon. Friend makes a valid point worrying precedent for inadequate mitigation for future and I entirely agree. schemes. Concern has also been expressed to me by colleagues, The Minister will have noticed tonight that I speak and, indeed, Mr Speaker, about the fact that compensation not just for my own constituency, but for many others, has only currently been offered to owner-occupiers. and I urge him to listen to our electors and do the Owners of second homes or those living in social housing decent thing by people whose lives have been turned receive no recompense, in spite of having to endure upside down by this risky, poorly managed and ill-conceived years of disruption and intrusion in an identical fashion project. to homeowners. If HS2 goes ahead, I would like to see To borrow, and slightly change, the words from four main changes on compensation and a greater “Macbeth”, “If it were done when ‘tis done, then ‘twere safeguard for those affected. well it were done properly.” First, I and many others have always supported the introduction of a property bond scheme, as proposed 7.19 pm by HS2 Action Alliance, where the Government act as a The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport purchaser of last resort, and whereby buyers have the (Mr Robert Goodwill): May I congratulate my right confidence to buy properties on the open market at hon. Friend the Member for Chesham and Amersham unblighted prices. I believe this scheme would provide (Mrs Gillan) on securing this debate on the compensation greater functionality of blighted property markets, and package for phase 1 of HS2. She has been a tireless a better deal for all constituents. campaigner on the impact of HS2, and I recognise her PricewaterhouseCoopers’ March 2014 report on a continuing determination to ensure that the Government potential property bond scheme concluded that it was do not lose sight of those concerns. Indeed, the presence a fair option, assuming it has a generous boundary. of so many right hon. and hon. Members in the Chamber Regrettably, there has been a continual reluctance to underlines that point. I am aware that because of ministerial adopt this option by Ministers, in spite of widespread responsibilities, some colleagues are not able to speak backing. The Department for Transport has rejected on this, but I can assure the House that my right hon. this scheme in the past because of “money risks”. and learned Friend the Member for Kenilworth and However, figures from PwC demonstrate that the figures Southam (Jeremy Wright) and my right hon. Friend the are not prohibitive, and given the clear benefits of this Member for Aylesbury (Mr Lidington) never let me scheme in terms of supporting normal market activity, I forget about the concerns of their constituents too. would ask the Minister to reconsider this scheme carefully I am aware that my right hon. Friend the Member for once again and recognise its obvious advantages for Chesham and Amersham has recently asked a number both the market and those affected. of parliamentary questions in relation to HS2 and has 875 High Speed 2 (Compensation)21 OCTOBER 2014 High Speed 2 (Compensation) 876 been in regular correspondence with my Department. I place for phase 1, and hopefully, as my right hon. Friend must also explain why she has not had a response to her the Member for Chesham and Amersham (Mrs Gillan) recent letter on behalf of the HS2 Action Alliance. The has said, they will be generous ones, they should apply issue at the heart of this correspondence is the way in equally to those in phase 2? which we have estimated the number of properties within particular distances of HS2, including the data Mr Goodwill: My hon. Friend makes a valid point. If used in replying to a parliamentary question in November we can reach a fair compensation package for phase 1, 2013. Estimating property counts in a given area is an we will certainly need to bear that in mind as we look at extremely complex and technical matter, and the phase 2. I suspect that those affected by phase 2 would Department for Transport is currently preparing a detailed expect no less. response. I am pleased to be responding to this debate on a Mr Jim Cunningham: There are people in Coventry subject that is of such great importance to my right who are not covered by any compensation scheme, and hon. Friend and her constituents. Before I respond to yet they have invested their life savings in their properties. the points she has raised, it is perhaps worth taking the They cannot sell their properties now. What will the opportunity to set out the current position on the Government do about that? compensation package for HS2. Measures to assist property owners and occupiers affected by new Mr Goodwill: That is precisely why we are putting infrastructure have developed over the years through a these compensation schemes in place. We also have an mixture of statute, case law and established practice and exceptional hardship scheme in place for phase 2. To the are referred to as the compensation code. Although the end of September 2014, we have purchased 32 properties Government remain confident that reliance on the existing at a cost of £15.1 million. compensation code is appropriate for the majority of Following the property compensation consultation in infrastructure schemes, we believe that the exceptional 2013 for the London to west midlands HS2 route, the nature of the HS2 project justifies a different approach Government decided to use five criteria to select the and the Government have long been committed to most appropriate long-term discretionary property introducing measures for those directly affected by HS2 compensation packages for phase 1 of HS2. Those that go beyond what is required by law. criteria are: fairness; value for money; community cohesion; At present, we have the exceptional hardship scheme feasibility, efficiency and comprehensibility; and the in place for phase 1 of HS2. That has always been functioning of the housing market. Accordingly, the intended as an interim measure to assist those property Government announced on 9 April the long-term owners who have an urgent need to sell their home but compensation schemes that would be introduced for have not been able to do so, except at a substantially phase 1. They included express purchase, which I have reduced price, as a direct result of the announcement of already mentioned. the route for the railway. We have also introduced express purchase for owner-occupied properties within Mrs Gillan: The Minister will correct me if I am the safeguarded area. There are detailed maps available wrong, but did I hear him cite the word “fairness”? on the HS2 website to allow people to determine where their properties are in relation to the safeguarded area. Mr Goodwill: Precisely. Fairness is at the heart of our Express purchase was introduced from 9 April 2014. approach—fairness to those who have to move because I am pleased to be able to update Members on the their properties are being demolished or are so close to properties that we have purchased under the schemes the line; and fairness to those who want to stay in their that are currently open. To the end of September 2014, communities and maintain community cohesion. we have spent £110.3 million purchasing 162 properties We announced a voluntary purchase offer that would be affected by phase 1. available to people up to 120 metres from the railway in rural areas. Eligible owner-occupiers between the Alec Shelbrooke (Elmet and Rothwell) (Con): The safeguarded area and 120 metres will be able to ask problem in my constituency is that, under this scheme, the Government to buy their homes at the unblighted HS2 has not given the market value for these properties, market value. The scheme will be opened to applicants and it is driving down the price of those properties. by the end of 2014 following further consultation on That matter was raised with HS2 back in August, and supplementary cash payment schemes. I still have not received a response. Mr Jim Cunningham: As I said, we have people in Mr Goodwill: The instruction to our valuers was that Coventry outside the 120-metre area who have invested they should value properties at the previous unblighted their life savings in a property, but cannot sell it. How price. will they be compensated? The properties have been purchased under the exceptional hardship scheme, the statutory blight arrangements, Mr Goodwill: I will move on to the measures for those and through express purchase. Compensation for further away, but we understand that many people’s disturbance costs and reasonable moving costs are not biggest asset is their home. In fact, many people see included in the expenditure figures. their home as part of their retirement package. We announced a “need to sell” scheme to help property Michael Fabricant (Lichfield) (Con): My hon. Friend owners who have a compelling need to sell their home, will know that my constituency is affected not only by but are unable to do so because of our plans to build phase 1, but by phase 2. Does he agree that, as a matter HS2. There will be no outer boundary to that scheme, of principle, whatever compensation schemes are put in which will also be opened to applicants by the end 877 High Speed 2 (Compensation)21 OCTOBER 2014 High Speed 2 (Compensation) 878

[Mr Goodwill] Mr Goodwill: We take the view that the level of disruption in rural areas, particularly the effect on of 2014. It will succeed the current exceptional hardship property prices, is absolutely different from that in scheme for phase 1, which will then be closed. When we urban areas, where properties can be close to the railway implement the voluntary purchase and “need to sell” but there might be many houses in between, and in schemes later this year, we will publish detailed guidance many cases there is already a railway established, for about how they will work. example near Euston station, which no doubt people We have also announced rent back, a rule that means were aware of when they moved there. that if a property that the Government have purchased under any of our schemes is suitable for letting, the Frank Dobson: My constituents might not fancy the previous owner may, if they wish, be considered for a idea of a new station, but what they really do not want Crown tenancy. That scheme was introduced on 9 April. is having to live next to a construction site for a decade We have consulted separately over the summer on or more. That is what they are bothered about. two supplementary cash payment schemes. The first would provide that, for owner-occupiers in the voluntary Mr Goodwill: Yes, and I spent time with the right purchase area, an alternative cash offer of 10% of the hon. Gentleman in his constituency, along with the unblighted market value of their property, with a cap of leader of his council, looking at some of the mitigation £100,000 and a minimum payment of £30,000, would that can be put in place. apply. I will talk a little about the property bond. My right hon. Friend referred to the Government’s decision against Sir William Cash: Does the Minister accept that this a property bond as a means of providing compensation is a wholly inadequate package? We sincerely trust that for generalised blight caused by HS2. The main aim of the Committee considering the Bill will listen carefully the property bond concept is to ensure that eligible to the analysis that we will put forward in our petitions, property owners do not suffer unreasonable losses because because it is petitions to this House that ought to make of any reduction in the market value of their properties the difference. caused by a proposed development. The defining feature of a property bond is the idea that eligible property Mr Goodwill: I pay tribute to the petitions Committee, owners, at an early stage in a project’s development, which has set about carrying out its role in a workmanlike would be given a specific and binding promise of a way. My hon. Friend the Member for Poole (Mr Syms), well-defined, individual settlement, which the property the Chair of that Committee, is in the Chamber to hear owner would be entitled to redeem in specific circumstances. this debate. Should the property transfer ownership, so too would That cash payment scheme might help some people the bond. The outcome of a property bond scheme to decide that they do not need to move to protect the would reflect the way the scheme influenced property value of their investment in their home. We have also buyers, vendors and professionals throughout the lifetime consulted on a home owner payment scheme to provide of the relevant infrastructure project. Without evidence cash payments to eligible owner-occupiers between of those behaviours and decisions from actual schemes, 120 metres and 300 metres from the centre line, following it is very hard to assess the performance of a property Royal Assent of the phase 1 hybrid Bill, to enable bond for HS2. affected residents to share early in the future economic benefits of the railway. We have sought views on The Government continue to believe that the property consequential changes to the voluntary purchase offer bond concept has merit, and that it was right to put it and the “need to sell” scheme. forward as an option in the property compensation consultation in 2013. However, taking all consultation Mr Grieve: What about stamp duty? It is now a very responses and further practical and analytical findings substantial tax, and anyone who sells their house, even into account, we continue to be concerned that the under the voluntary purchase scheme, will have to pay effects of a property bond on the behaviour and decisions stamp duty on a fresh purchase. Those people moving of property owners, professionals and especially property to a property of substantial value, which is the sort that buyers remain unknown and hard to assess. they are likely to move into, will face a serious penalty, In conclusion— and one that they would not have wished on themselves, because they had no intention of moving. Several hon. Members rose— Mr Goodwill: I understand my right hon. and learned Friend’s point. Stamp duty and moving costs will be Mr Goodwill: I have only 50 seconds remaining, so payable for those in the closest band to the railway. We I will not give way. will announce the outcome of the consultation to which In conclusion, I again congratulate my right hon. I referred later this year. Friend on her unflagging energy in seeking the best On the long-standing campaign of my right hon. outcome for those affected by HS2, and I very much Friend the Member for Chesham and Amersham for a recognise the importance of the compensation package longer tunnel through the Chilterns, we have considered to her and her constituents. I note the concerns she has a range of options for tunnels. raised and hope that I have shown hon. Members that we have a package in place that meets the Government’s Frank Dobson: I do not wish to delay the Minister in policy objectives for compensation: fairness, value for turning his attention to the tunnel, but can he explain money, community cohesion, feasibility, efficiency, why the terms for urban areas are different from those comprehensibility, and the functioning of the housing for rural areas? market. I am confident that the compensation package, 879 High Speed 2 (Compensation)21 OCTOBER 2014 High Speed 2 (Compensation) 880 once fully in place alongside the protections already 7.33 pm available through the compensation code, will perform well against those criteria. House adjourned. Question put and agreed to.

177WH 21 OCTOBER 2014 Relationships and Children’s 178WH Well-being Westminster Hall “is not a nanny state so much as a canny state” that tackles the issue—not my words, but a quotation from the conclusion reached by the Centre for Social Tuesday 21 October 2014 Justice in its July 2014 Breakthrough Britain report, “Fully Committed? How a Government could reverse family breakdown”. [MR PHILIP HOLLOBONE in the Chair] The CSJ has probably done more than any other Relationships and Children’s organisation to put the issue on to the policy agenda. I pay tribute to the CSJ, to the leadership of my right Well-being hon. Friend the Member for Chingford and Woodford Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting Green (Mr Duncan Smith), now the Secretary of State be now adjourned.—(Damian Hinds.) for Work and Pensions, for founding the organisation and inspiring so much of its work, and to the excellent 9.30 am work of Dr Samantha Callan. Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con): I commend the The CSJ report states: Government for their groundbreaking work in beginning “Strong and stable relationships and families are indispensable to put relationships at the heart of family policy. to a strong and stable society. Secure, nurturing, loving and The Minister can be justly proud of the Government’s reliable family environments are crucial for the health and wellbeing progress in a number of ways, including: raising the of children, adults, and wider communities, and where these care leaving age for young people who are fostered, factors are absent this can have a profoundly damaging effect on the fabric of society. Yet for almost half a century there has been acknowledging that ongoing relationships with foster an escalation in family breakdown across Britain—divorce and parents can be incredibly redemptive for children whose separation, dysfunction and dadlessness.” birth families have been unable to raise them; transforming the adoption landscape, so that heroic adoptive parents The report and the statistics speak volumes about why get the support that they need, making it far more likely we have no grounds for complacency in this country. that they can provide a stable, loving family and that the For example, by the time that children are sitting their adoption is as successful as possible; building on the GCSEs, nearly half of them live in broken homes. That existing evidence-based programme and approaches that proportion rises to two thirds for those in low-income help couples to strengthen their relationships and prevent communities, and we must highlight the fact that it is family breakdown; and investing in parent-child the poorest who are hit hardest by family breakdown. relationships by launching the CANparent scheme, Almost half of all children under five in our poorest providing vouchers for free parenting classes in three households are not living with both their parents, which trial areas. is seven times the number of those in the richest households. One statistic in particular brought home to me the The coalition must also be congratulated on recognising distorted priorities in our society: more teenagers have a marriage in the tax system, acknowledging the greater smartphone than have a father at home. stability of marriage. Unmarried couples with children are at least twice as likely to split up as those who are We are known as the single parent capital of Europe, married, regardless of income. Furthermore, the with one quarter of families with children headed by Government established a cross-cutting Cabinet Committee lone parents. That figure rises significantly in our poorest on social justice—which rightly treats family breakdown neighbourhoods and can be as high as 75%. Other as a driver and not simply as an effect of poverty—and countries are doing much better. In Finland, more than appointed the Department for Work and Pensions as 95% of children under 15 live with both parents, and lead Ministry on the issue, to bring all relationship the OECD average is 84%. Many parents raising children support policy under one Department. I also thank the on their own are doing an amazing job against the odds, Prime Minister for his speech in August this year in but few set out to do that—it is rarely a lifestyle choice. support of strong families. They find it incredibly difficult and they do not want their children to be in the same position when they are I could go on, but I want to leave plenty of time to older. explain why relationships matter so much to children’s well-being and to make it clear that while that is a great Why does stability matter so much for children? start, it is only a start. The agenda has to be seen as a Surely the most important thing is that they are safe? journey with a long distance left to run. It is like a ship Surely if a relationship is no longer loving and nurturing that has finally set sail and edged out of the mouth of for the adults and children involved, it is time to call it a the harbour, but is still a long way from achieving its day. Campaigners against domestic abuse often argue purpose in setting forth. What is that purpose? The against an emphasis on stability, on the grounds that over-riding priority for family policy has to be to tackle violent and controlling relationships should not be stable our epidemic levels of family breakdown in this country. and need to end. I will explain why, however, it is overly With the exception of our Prime Minister and a few simplistic to pit safety against stability. others, some of whom are present—I acknowledge the Not for one minute am I saying that a partner who is support of Members attending the debate—politicians being subjugated or suffering significant and severe often hold back from talking up the benefits of marriage abuse should be under any societal or economic pressure and committed relationships. They worry that by to remain in an exploitative relationship. Nor am I emphasising the need to support and encourage such saying that the poor status quo of low-quality relationships, relationships they will be seen as judgmental or moralising, even where there is no abuse, should simply be endured or as adopting a “nanny state” approach. The costs of because of an ideological emphasis on stability.Relationship family breakdown, however, are enormous; at £48 billion, education, support, counselling and therapy represent they exceed the defence budget. Surely it a spectrum of help for those who do not want their 179WH Relationships and Children’s 21 OCTOBER 2014 Relationships and Children’s 180WH Well-being Well-being [Fiona Bruce] which a child is free from fear and secure from physical or psychological harm. Stability is about the degree of relationship to end, but deeply want it to improve. That predictability and consistency in a child’s environment— is why this and future Governments need to keep investing including consistency in the people to whom children in effective programmes and research on what works. relate—as well as how they interact with caregivers and Parents’ desire to stay together is often rooted in their others. awareness that relationship breakdown profoundly affects children. Children whose family splits are more likely to Stability gives a child a sense of coherence and enables experience behavioural problems, to underachieve in them to see the world as predictable and manageable. school, to need more medical treatment, to leave school Without it, they may not form the secure and nurturing and home earlier, to become sexually active, pregnant attachments they need for optimal development. Moreover, or a parent at an early age, and to have poorer mental if the adults around them are not in stable relationships, health and higher levels of smoking, drinking and other it can make it more likely that a child will be exposed to drug use during adolescence. relationships and environments that are stressful and unsafe. Many stepfathers are incredibly caring and That is explored in another report, which was produced conscientious, but sometimes living with unrelated males last month by a number of parliamentarians. I was is a significant risk factor for child maltreatment, as in privileged to be involved, under the leadership of my the baby Peter tragedy and many other serious child hon. Friend the Member for Stafford (Jeremy Lefroy), abuse cases. who I am pleased to see present today. That important report, “Holding the Centre: Social stability and Social Nurture concerns the extent to which a parent or capital”, which I hope the Minister will read, if he has carer is attuned and responding to the physical, not already received a copy, states that social capital is developmental and emotional needs of their child. the wealth of our nation: Nurturing relationships make a child feel safer and able “While economic recovery is an essential foundation, it is not to embrace new situations and explore their world with enough. Debt burdens, housing costs, worries about social care, confidence. I should say that it is not one-way: one of and lack of confidence that all will share the fruits of domestic the most fulfilling experiences of my life has been hard graft and global competitiveness weigh heavily. Fractured relationships are both a cause and consequence of these issues. nurturing and bringing up two boys, who are now aged 18 and 21. Safety, stability and nurture overlap, and all Strong communities and extended families can build both financial and social capital, increasing wellbeing and reducing matter. Children are more likely to grow up with all of long-term pressures on public spending. Every department of the them if their parents’ relationship is intact and high in government should therefore be crystal clear about the extent to quality. which it relies on family and community relationships and the costs of that contribution being compromised.” In a worrying situation, over the past few days and The report welcomes the Prime Minister’s announcement weeks, world leaders and national Governments have of a “triple test” for family policy, so that been calling other countries to account over their lack “every government department will be held to account for the of action on the Ebola outbreak. The scale of such a impact of their policies on the family”, challenge requires all the wealthy nations of the world and it states: to plough in significant resources and make a sacrificial effort. Small gestures will not stem the tide. I would “He is right to say that ‘whatever the social issue we want to grasp—the answer should always begin with family’.” argue that exactly the same can be said about stemming the tide of family breakdown. The report highlights the Prime Minister’s comment that Evidence from the Healthy Marriage Initiative in the “to really drive this through, we need to change the way government United States shows that those states that put a significant does business”. amount of resource into the poorest communities saw It makes a number of recommendations that, as I have correspondingly significant increases in children growing said, I hope the Minister will look at and will respond to up with both their parents and declines in child poverty. in his speech. The states that did not had far less to show for their My simple and unapologetic message is that, for efforts. Our Government’s own research has already children, what matters is a trinity: relationships that are shown that Relate’s couple counselling and Marriage safe, stable and nurturing. The United States Centre for Care’s marriage preparation courses show a more than Disease Control and Prevention, the equivalent of Public elevenfold return on investment through savings due to Health England, treats safe, stable and nurturing reduced relationship breakdown—that is, for every £1 relationships—or SSNRs, in our acronym-prone world—as invested, over £11 is returned to society. Courses such as one of the essentials for childhood. It states: those show that relationship skills can be learned. We “Safe, stable, nurturing relationships…between children and need more of them in our society, in which so many their caregivers…are fundamental to healthy brain development” people—particularly young people—embark on and relationships with no role model for how to sustain a “shape the development of children’s physical, emotional, social, healthy relationship over time. behavioral, and intellectual capacities”, all of which ultimately affect the whole of their lives as I am reminded of a discussion I had with a colleague adults. Children’s mental health rests largely on their in my law firm. It had become clear to me that our benefiting from safe, stable and nurturing relationships. family department was advising on divorces for couples in shorter and shorter relationships. I asked the head of The three dimensions of safety, stability and nurture the department, “What is the shortest marriage that you are all important aspects of the social and physical have advised on now?” He turned to me and said, “The environments that protect children and are indispensible couple did not even end their reception. They had a row to their fulfilling their potential. Safety is the extent to 181WH Relationships and Children’s 21 OCTOBER 2014 Relationships and Children’s 182WH Well-being Well-being during the reception and came to us for a divorce.” the Relationships Alliance’s excellent manifesto. That Does that not highlight a lack of understanding of manifesto makes some excellent practical suggestions, what commitment means, certainly in a marriage? including calling for a Cabinet-level Minister for Families I welcome the Prime Minister’s commitment not to with a properly resourced Whitehall Department. That allow funding for relationship support to drop below would greatly help to ensure that the recently introduced the current level as long as he is in post. But that level is family test for public policy is meaningful. meagre in comparison to the scale of need: it is just The manifesto has 12 points intended to challenge 0.02% of the cost of family breakdown. I understand Government and promote cultural change. They include that public finances are tight and that there is concern the suggestion that all front-line practitioners delivering that the evidence base for effective programmes and public services should receive training on relationship approaches is still slender. However, surely the answer is support; that family and relationship centres should be to build on that base. Sir Graham Hart urged the piloted and established in the UK, as in Australia, previous Government to do that in the review of relationship where the Government have made a 20-year commitment support they commissioned him to undertake in the late to addressing the issue; that central Government should 1990s. It is important to note that this is a cross-party engage local authorities to develop and extend relationship issue. It concerns colleagues right across the political support at local level; and that both local and central spectrum and should be above and beyond party politics. Government should ensure that services are designed to Any Government, of whatever colour, should treat it as help at life transition points, so as to include a focus on a priority. couple, family and social relationships. Lastly, although Relationship science is a growing and respected field there are other recommendations I have not mentioned, of research in the US. One of its foremost proponents, the manifesto says: Professor Scott Stanley, argues that we know enough to “The expanded Troubled Families programme should include take action and we need to take action to know more. a focus on supporting and measuring the quality and stability of couple, family and social relationships.” We have already learned a lot about what works in helping and supporting couples, but we need to keep on I acknowledge, and pay tribute to, the four organisations learning and improving all the time. Evidence matters involved in producing the manifesto: the Tavistock Centre enormously, so I am delighted that this Government for Couple Relationships, Marriage Care, Relate and have recently conducted their own family stability review. OnePlusOne. It is essential that the findings of the review are published To conclude, the Minister will agree that there is no soon, for the benefit of local authorities and commissioners shortage of ideas. In my brief speech, I have referred to of services. three substantial reports on this subject, issued in almost as many months this summer and autumn. The challenges We also need a “What Works” centre for families and are huge, but they must be addressed—whatever the relationships—not a vastly expensive proposition colour of the next Government, and by us all. The considering its potential return: the Early Intervention Relationships Manifesto states: Foundation was set up at a cost of £3.5 million and is “Clearly, government…can only go so far, and it requires already making a huge contribution to local authority collective action from citizens, business, civil society and government decision making. A What Works centre would help to create the condition for people’s relationships to flourish.” enormously in refining a curriculum for relationships I urge this Government to grasp the nettle of family education in school. It is critical that relationships are breakdown more firmly than has been the case before. the priority in relationships and sex education in schools. That will immeasurably help this and future generations There is hardly a person I know who does not agree of parents to massively boost their children’s life chances, with that. The subject should be a compulsory part of enabling them to face the future full of hope, to reach the national curriculum, drawing in local relationship their potential, and to be fully confident that they are support organisations as well as specialist teachers. Last loved and that they matter. As the CSJ’s report says, week’s heated media discussions over the footballer “Without concerted action across government and beyond to Ched Evans’s rape conviction show how vital it is for all address our epidemic levels of family breakdown there is a danger young people to understand issues such as consent, that the agenda will be lost”, equality and respect in relationships, as well as commitment and it is the children in our society who will pay the and the importance of enduring relationships. highest price. We also need children’s centres in every community to evolve into family hubs where parents can get help 9.51 am with their own relationships, not just with parenting. Mr David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con): It is a Although all this help and support has to be delivered pleasure to take part in this vital debate. I congratulate at a local level, it is essential that the policy agenda is my hon. Friend the Member for Congleton (Fiona championed nationally, otherwise it will have no hope Bruce) on securing it and on championing, not only in of competing for time, money and attention in an this debate, but over the years, the importance of supporting already impossibly crowded set of priorities. Although I the family. am aware that individual Opposition Members are It is extraordinary that the debate is not better attended, extremely concerned about this issue, I am disappointed but despite the lack of attendance among Opposition that apart from the shadow Minister there is only one Back-Bench Members, with the exception of the hon. Member on the Opposition Benches today, from the Member for South Antrim (Dr McCrea), we do face an Democratic Unionist party, the hon. Member for South epidemic, as my hon. Friend said, and it has been going Antrim (Dr McCrea). on for many years. This epidemic needs the same attention As chair of the all-party group for strengthening we would give any other epidemic in our country, and it couple relationships, I had the privilege of hosting the is interesting to reflect on that as we consider how well launch yesterday, here in the House of Commons, of we are dealing with the scale of the problem. 183WH Relationships and Children’s 21 OCTOBER 2014 Relationships and Children’s 184WH Well-being Well-being [Mr David Burrowes] provides for the joint registration of births. Mothers are automatically registered, but unmarried fathers are not, My hon. Friend paid tribute to the report from the and they have to go through a process to get on the Centre for Social Justice. She mentioned a number of birth certificate. I understand that the provisions have statistics, and one that struck me was that if we carry on not been implemented yet, and they have no doubt been in the same way, it is likely that, by the end of the next delayed by legitimate concerns about wanting to avoid Parliament, more than half of children taking their problematic issues—for example, preventing a violent GCSEs will come from broken homes. As she said, that father from automatically registering and assuming is of particular concern as a social justice issue; in responsibility for the child. However, the legislation low-income households, half of those from the ages of does provide for exceptions, and I do not understand nought to five do not live with both parents. The issue why we have not motored on with a decent piece of has been highlighted by not only the CSJ, but the recent legislation introduced under the previous Government Good Childhood inquiry, which said that family breakdown to ensure that, at the very least, we make it easier for and conflict have the biggest adverse impact on children’s fathers automatically to register. Being registered on the well-being. certificate is hugely significant; it says loud and clear I welcome the fact that my hon. Friend the Minister, that the father, as well as the mother, matters at the very who is with the Department for Work and Pensions, is start of the child’s life. Flowing from that, other shifts taking a lead on this issue—quite properly, given the can take place, in terms of the father’s responsibility Secretary of State’s long track record on addressing and the way in which he can be involved practically. family breakdown. However, it must be said that if our Will the Minister therefore tell us how far we have got country was facing any other epidemic, Cobra would with implementing the legislation? get together, and the Prime Minister would probably It is also important to look at how registration can lead the meeting. There would also be a whole set of happen practically. It does not need to happen at the plans, and a significant amount of money would be registry office. Like others, I know the difficulty of thrown in to try to address the problem. I welcome the getting everyone to the registry office to register. When fact that the lead on addressing this epidemic is being couples are not married, or there are problems in a taken by the DWP, but should it not be taken across relationship, that can be even harder. We therefore need Government at Cabinet level, as my hon. Friend said? to look actively at registering births at children’s centres. The Prime Minister has taken a lead—in fact, more That was recommended by the CSJ, and I ask the than any other Prime Minister—not simply at the beginning Minister to examine whether the Department for Education of this Parliament, but very much as we get towards the can look at the benefits. In particular, it has been end of it. I attended the speech he gave in August, in recommended that we look at our children’s centres as which he set out the steps we have taken, which are real family hubs, where mothers and fathers can be significant, and what we are doing now. My hon. Friend together to access information and help to support their highlighted those points, but I should also emphasise children. Even if there are problems in relationships, the the significant amount that continues to go into relationship mother and the father can still be involved in the child’s support. That is welcome and important, but in many journey. Children’s centres can operate better as a wider ways, it is the minimum we need to be doing. family hub. Adoption reform is fantastic; what is happening is significant, and it must be welcomed. The belated The second issue is one that does not always get a introduction of the marriage tax allowance recognises mention: grandparents and the extended family. Families the significance of marriage and helps to support it. come in all shapes and sizes: they go up, down and The work done in the troubled families programme is along in terms of their length, breadth and depth. also welcome. However, in many ways, that is only the We should recognise the unsung heroes of families—the minimum we should be doing to address the tide of 14 million grandparents in Britain today. They range family breakdown and instability, which is taking a widely in age, and we should not stereotype them. Half huge toll on all our communities, but particularly the are under 65 and one in 10 is aged 50. One in four most deprived. working families rely on them increasingly for child We should not simply accept that family breakdown care. I understand from Grandparents Plus that they is inevitable. We have to look at other countries. Sadly, contribute some £7.3 billion of child care to society. We we top the league of instability and family breakdown. need to understand their role. They provide important There needs to be a shift, but it is not one that the practical and emotional support for parents, which is Government can engineer; there needs to be a cultural particularly needed in crises. shift, which will allow us properly to promote the Kinship care is in some ways the poor relation in benefits of marriage and committed relationships. family policy. The Government have rightly done a lot I do not want to give a commentary; in many ways, about adoption, providing rights, support and access to we all agree about the problems, the challenges we face, information for adoptive parents. However, grandparents and the good steps the Government have taken. Instead, and other kinship carers are not on the same level. I I want to address three issues. One is fathers. As we all invite the Government to think about how we can go recognise, fathers matter, but 1 million children in Britain forward on the reform of kinship care. It has such a today have no significant contact with their father. That significant role—particularly, as the Minister will know, is a huge problem and a huge shame. We all accept that when a child, or indeed a parent, has a disability. fathers matter in family relationships, and we must do Grandparents can have an informal or formal role, and more to support fatherhood. their involvement builds social capital within the family, It is interesting that the Minister is here, because we but they also gain a lot of value themselves from being need to do more in two areas. One is the joint registration involved in the care of their grandchildren. It helps with of births. Schedule 6 to the Welfare Reform Act 2009 their independence, and can avoid huge bills for social 185WH Relationships and Children’s 21 OCTOBER 2014 Relationships and Children’s 186WH Well-being Well-being care subsequently. Much more active support for their and a relationship with the grandchildren, they look at role would be a win-win situation for the grandparents them suspiciously. Social services should be looking in and the children. their direction. In reality, grandparents struggle, particularly in crises. It is thought that up to 300,000 children are being Mr Burrowes: Yes, there can be almost a presumption brought up by 200,000 grandparents who carry out the that a child should go into stranger care, rather than role of family carers. In many instances domestic violence, family care. That would run counter to many cultures, drug or alcohol addiction, abuse and neglect are involved but sadly such an unwelcome culture shift exists in our in the situation, and the only person who can be turned society. An attempt is being made to shift things through to is a kinship carer. That might be a grandparent, but it the guidance, but that shift needs to be embedded in could be a sibling or other family member. Such approaches practice. can also be important in crises, such as when there is a I shall be interested to hear what the Minister says bereavement, an imprisonment or a combination of about kinship care. Campaigners such as Grandparents such factors. The reality is that 95% of children living Plus and the Centre for Social Justice talk about bringing with members of their wider family do not have formal in some equivalent to adoption reform. For example, it looked-after status within the care process. Without was welcome that the Government introduced the passport that, kinship carers inevitably do not receive the same for adoptive parents, to give them access to continuing rights and benefit entitlements as those who provide support for housing and schooling. If adoptive parents formalised care. The evidence is that children do much can have it, why cannot kinship carers, who play such better where there is a kinship relationship. Stress, anxiety, an important equivalent role, also have the right to depression and isolation affect kinship carers immensely, request assessments of need, information on legal status, and without the levels of support available to others, and support? I should welcome the Minister’s views on that is growing. Kinship carers may be affected by that, and on benefit system support to enable kinship issues to do with housing and the availability of carers to care for traumatised children. I understand discretionary payments to enable them to cope during that the Department for Work and Pensions is progressing crises. that, with the distressed children review, and it will be What can be done about the situation? When he gave interesting to see the conclusions. the speech that I have mentioned, the Prime Minister I want finally to mention mental health. A child’s was asked a question about kinship care and he said: well-being is wrapped up with their relationship with “Youdo see sometimes grandparents stepping in and effectively their parents and family, and the need for a stable, bring up children, and of course under the rules they don’t get supportive, nurturing relationship is also wrapped up quite the same set of rights as others. What you are saying is that with their mental health needs. Whether the parents—ideally if you can extend to adoptive parents things that birth parents two parents—are around is an issue, but so is the have in terms of rights, couldn’t you do that for grandparents? quality of parenting, which affects children’s well-being That is something I am very happy to look at in terms of and emotional and mental development. It may perhaps manifesto, and we have got some Conservative MPs”— go without saying that when the parents are in conflict, the anxiety, depression and anti-social behaviour emanating in fact, there are two hon. Members present for the from family relationships can have a direct impact on debate who were there at the time— children. It may not go without saying, perhaps, that “who have got some responsibility for giving me ideas on that family breakdown is strongly associated with poor mental front, so I am sure they will take note of it.” health in adults and children. We need to tackle mental I encourage the Minister to take note, and consider the health issues. The Government recently advanced a possibility of a local authority duty to consider the welcome mental health strategy, but it did not mention wider family before children are taken into care. how conflicts between parents and in fractured families affect children’s mental health. Perhaps that is a given, The Department for Education came up with good but it needs to be explicit, because we need to consider guidance in April, which states that how work can be done with whole families to tackle the “the local authority should identify and prioritise suitable family causes of problems. The Good Childhood inquiry report and friends placements, if appropriate…before care proceedings has recognised poor parenting as a significant contributory are issued, as it may avoid the need for proceedings.” factor in increasing mental health problems. That is very welcome; we need to think about how far What can we do? The Government deserve to be that is embedded in local authority practice. The applauded for the Improving Access to Psychological Department also said in guidance in April that foster Therapies programmes, which have been extended, and carers should have 20 days’ paid leave for training and into which a significant amount of taxpayers’ money meetings, and that included grandparents who look has gone. They are focused particularly on cognitive after children. We should, furthermore, consider entitlement behavioural therapy, which is perhaps the normative to adjustment leave to give kinship carers time to deal response, and which has been expanded. I understand with family crises without losing their jobs. If the that couples therapy for depression has also been expanded arrangement becomes permanent, they should be entitled within IAPT programmes. Some have expressed concern to that leave. We should consider support based on to me that when someone goes to their GP with depression, need, not just legal status. the response does not go beneath things, into the causes of the depression within the family, which could well be Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP): Quite family problems. often, when social services step in when families are I understand that only a quarter of IAPT programmes experiencing breakdown or trouble, instead of looking offer couples therapy, and that only 0.62% of IAPT first to the grandparents, who may have affection for sessions have delivered couples therapy. That seems to 187WH Relationships and Children’s 21 OCTOBER 2014 Relationships and Children’s 188WH Well-being Well-being [Mr Burrowes] and that children with good relationships with their fathers are less likely to experience depression or exhibit be out of kilter with what is happening on the ground. disruptive behaviour at school. When fathers are actively It is only rarely considered as an option. Millions of involved in their children’s care, children are more likely pounds are going into IAPT, particularly for cognitive to feel good about themselves, do well at school, avoid behavioural therapies, but it seems to be inappropriate trouble and reach their potential. that little is going into couples therapy. Several months ago, a lady came to my surgery saying I do not want to take up more time, because colleagues that her relationship with her partner had broken down have a lot to contribute, but to return to where we after they had lived together for 10 years. During that started, we have a huge problem. There has been significant relationship they had brought up their own child and progress, but we must pull all levers of Government, another child who had been born a year before the together, to promote a cultural shift and show that we relationship began. The acrimony of the breakdown of are on the side of families and better relationships, in the relationship had led the departing father to arbitrate the interests of children’s well-being. on which child—they were only a year apart in age—he would want to have contact with. The one who was not his blood relative—the stepchild—wanted to maintain 10.10 am the relationship because the man was the only father John Glen (Salisbury) (Con): It is a pleasure, figure he had known, but his birth child was more Mr Hollobone, to serve under your chairmanship. I reticent about seeing his father. The impact of the congratulate my good friend and colleague, my hon. disruption on those children and the arbitrary removal Friend the Member for Congleton (Fiona Bruce) on of that father influence would have tragic consequences. securing this important debate. The subject needs discussion That experience typifies many that we hear about in our and careful and considerate handling, but it is right to surgeries and throughout society, and we must respond examine how we nurture children’s well-being and what to it. support exists to ensure that children in this country It is highly worrying that the Centre for Social Justice can benefit from the best possible situation when growing has estimated that more than 1 million children have no up. It is not enough to observe family breakdown and meaningful contact with their fathers by the end of its wide implications for society and then say it is their childhood. The shocking but quotable statistic nothing to do with the state because we are frightened that a young person is considerably more likely to have to death of seeming to moralise about people’s private a smartphone than a resident father is a sad indictment choices. of society. I am here this morning because I believe we should look at the evidence in our society. As my hon. Friends The coalition’s programme for Government promised the Members for Congleton and for Enfield, Southgate to encourage shared parenting from the outset and to (Mr Burrowes) said, the evidence is overwhelming. The look at how best to provide greater access rights to Government must look at the evidence, suspend their non-resident parents, but I would like to highlight three reticence about getting involved in family circumstances, areas where we could do more. First, we should bring and act. It is right to acknowledge the Government’s into force schedule 6 of the Welfare Reform Act 2009 progress. I, too, heard the Prime Minister’s excellent on joint birth registration, which requires fathers to speech in London in August when he set out what the register themselves on birth certificates. As my hon. Government have done and his aspiration to go further. Friend the Member for Enfield, Southgate said, there seems to be some ambiguity about why that has not This morning, I want to use my contribution to focus happened. At present, the law on birth registration on the importance of children’s relationships with their signals that fathers are less important to children than fathers to amplify some of the points that my colleagues their mothers and that less is expected of them. If they have made. are not married, the mother, not the father, is named automatically. Crucially, the mother’s approval is required Dr McCrea: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that if the father wants to be named. Obviously, there must good relationships and respect in society start in the be appropriate exemptions, such as when the mother home and in the family? Parental responsibility is essential does not know the father’s identity or whereabouts, the and cannot be handed over to anyone else, not even the father lacks capacity within the meaning of the Mental state. However, Government policy must encourage and Capacity Act 2005 or the mother has reason to fear for strengthen the family unit instead of undermining the her safety or that of the child if the father is contacted traditional family unit in society. in relation to the registration of the birth. If that change was made and the mother wanted the John Glen: I agree absolutely that we must look at father to be recorded, but that was against the father’s how relationships are formed in the home and recognise wishes, the mother could identify the father independently. that families exist in a wide range of sometimes sad Similarly, a father who wanted to be named but was circumstances. We must not be squeamish about being obstructed by the mother could declare his paternity honest about messy situations, but recognise that solid and have his name recorded against her wishes. Being family relationships give children the best platform to named on a birth certificate confers parental responsibility develop good and meaningful lives in society. and the right to be involved in decisions affecting where I want to focus on the importance of children’s the child lives, their education, religion and medical relationships with their fathers, especially when fathers treatment. If fathers are not registered on the birth cannot live with their children. I believe that fathers’ certificate, that predicts both less involvement in their involvement boosts children’s self-esteem and confidence children’s lives and low or non-payment of child 189WH Relationships and Children’s 21 OCTOBER 2014 Relationships and Children’s 190WH Well-being Well-being maintenance. Australia achieved a reduction of 20% in him to do anything that he can to improve that situation, mother-only registrations during the 10-year period such that those children can look forward to better between 1994 and 2004 by adopting a similar measure. lives, with both parents involved in their upbringing.

Secondly, if parents separate, it is often highly beneficial Mr Philip Hollobone (in the Chair): The debate is due to children if they continue to have a relationship with to end at 11 o’clock and we have two Front-Bench both parents. Yet it can be incredibly difficult to ensure speakers. If they split the time, it is 18 minutes each, but there are well functioning contact arrangements with the debate does not have to run all the way to 11 o’clock children. That can be incredibly painful for children, —it is entirely up to them. I call Steve McCabe. but it is understandable because parents’ inability to work together rarely repairs itself naturally after they 10.23 am have split up. Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab): Good At this point, I want to refer to a meeting I had on morning, Mr Hollobone. I begin by congratulating the Saturday in Salisbury, where I gave out some awards to hon. Member for Congleton (Fiona Bruce) on securing volunteers at Salisbury’s contact centre, and in particular this debate. It is right that we should consider the to Liz Sirman, who has spent the last five years managing impact of relationships on the well-being of our children, that contact centre. I said then, as I do now, that it and we should take into account how Government seems we can either say that the glass is half-full or policy can assist in this area. half-empty. We can either say that it is lamentable to I do not start with a wholly pessimistic view of have children’s contact centres, where parents’ relationships relationships. It is true that marriage rates are declining, are so broken that they have to rely on volunteers to that less than 50% of British households are now headed arbitrate—one partner delivers the child and goes, and by a married couple and that half of those marriages another comes to collect the child, and then there is the may end in divorce, but the divorce rate is also declining. same process in reverse—or we can pay tribute to the work of such centres, as they try to rebuild relationships and help those families form better relationships in the Fiona Bruce: I realise I am intervening early, but is interests of the children. not one reason for the declining divorce rate that young people are not getting married at all? We need to be willing to support families once parents have separated. The Department for Work and Pensions Steve McCabe: That may be one explanation, but we innovation fund has invested significantly in better ways are seeing a downward trend in divorce—I simply make of doing that. Additionally, we need family relationship that point. centres, such as those that have been functioning in I was going on to say that I was struck by a bit of Australia for several years. Pioneering centres such as research done by the counselling organisation Relate, in Island Separated Families on the Isle of Wight and the 2012. It highlighted the fact that 93% of people said Jersey Centre for Separated Families will shortly be that they still regarded their relationship and family joined by other centres in the midlands and the north-west network as the most important thing in getting them of England. Their help for separated families could be through hard and difficult times. If we listen to the delivered within the system for family hubs mentioned media or other people, it is at times tempting to think by my hon. Friend the Member for Congleton. that we are living in a society where family relationships have completely broken down, but that is not quite our Finally, although the contributory principle in child experience. Families—albeit sometimes new or reconstituted maintenance is indispensable, it should not have the families—still form the backbone of our support system. unintended consequence of preventing non-resident parents In the era of same-sex marriage—which it is difficult for from playing a meaningful role in their children’s lives. some people to acknowledge—we are not talking about Some low-income parents are being left with too little a single model of marriage. We could be talking about money to look after their children adequately while cohabiting, heterosexual, homosexual and lesbian, gay, they are in their care after paying child maintenance. bisexual, and transgender people. It varies in the world That is because the current thresholds at which maintenance we now live in. is paid are fixed at 1998 prices, and there is no self-support reserve in our system, unlike in many other countries. Relate also suggests that one of the things that puts the greatest pressure on families is the state of our This is a critical and controversial area, but we have economy. Relate says that couple relationships are eight to examine the reality of how these dynamics are working times more likely to break down as a result of economic for the poorest in our society. We need to look at pressures. In the era of austerity Britain, we need to making interventions that change those rules to facilitate take that into account. better dynamics between, and more involvement of, both parents in bringing up a child. I know that the Fiona Bruce: Does the hon. Gentleman agree— Minister, who is universally seen as one of the most particularly in the light of all that we have heard, even capable and thoughtful individuals in Parliament, will in this debate—that the lack of secure, stable and nurturing reflect very carefully on these points. I look forward to relationships in a child’s life is a fundamental driver and hearing what he has to say in response today and a cause of inequality and poverty, that tackling it is subsequently by letter, if some of these issues cannot be progressive and that it needs to be a priority, whatever responded to today, but I urge him to reflect on the party is in power, over very many years to come? spirit and the substance of what has been said this morning. We are here because we can see an epidemic of Steve McCabe: I certainly agree that, as the hon. family breakdown in our society. We are concerned Lady’s colleagues have also said, we should be putting a about the life trajectory of those children, and I urge high priority on what is happening to our children, the 191WH Relationships and Children’s 21 OCTOBER 2014 Relationships and Children’s 192WH Well-being Well-being [Steve McCabe] I noticed that the hon. Member for Enfield, Southgate (Mr Burrowes), in what was a very thoughtful speech in quality of the relationships they are growing up with, a number of areas—I certainly agree with him on the and what we can do to assist and facilitate the best question of kinship and grandparents—mentioned the possible outcomes for children in those circumstances. married couple’s tax allowance. It is worth pointing out, However, we have to be conscious that what happens to if that is an instrument of policy to help families and couples is not divorced from economic policy either. We children, that it is available only to one third of married need to take that into account when considering some couples. It applies to only 4 million of the 12.3 million of our spending cuts. I was struck by the assertion by married couples, and only about one third of them have the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions that an children, so when it comes to targeting a policy to help increase in working credits could be related to a 160% children, it would be possible to do a bit better. rise in the divorce rate. I would like to know a lot more about how he arrived at those figures. Fiona Bruce: I entirely agree. It would be possible to do better, and many Government Members hope that Mr Burrowes: I urge the hon. Gentleman to take a there will be an increase in the allowance over the years longer view of family breakdown and not just see it as to come, but the importance of the allowance is that for confined to the last four years. He should recognise that the first time for many years, and because of this before the great recession, family breakdown was a Government, it has sent a clear message that this country significant issue and was not just a result of Government. recognises and values the commitment that people make We are also talking about a cultural problem that has to each other through marriage. Does the hon. Gentleman been around for many years and we have still not dealt agree that that commitment is worth applauding? with it properly.

Steve McCabe: I certainly accept that we would not Steve McCabe: I simply make the point that if one want to try and explain family breakdown over a period third goes to pensioners who do not have children, it is a of just four years. I will make the point later that there question of targeting. I can see what attracts the hon. are a variety of issues; I am simply focusing on the fact Lady. I am not saying whether a married couple’s tax that if we are considering the impact on how Government allowance is a good or bad idea; I am saying that if we policy assists, we should not ignore the economic factors. are talking about targeting the policy, it is reasonable to The hon. Member for Congleton referred to Dr Coleman say that it would be possible to do that a bit better. We and the OnePlusOne group, which makes the point that could have a disagreement about that. evidence shows that where couples enjoy a good The hon. Member for Enfield, Southgate has mentioned employment situation, that in itself leads to a stronger that there are many factors besides economics. That is relationship. That may be because they have fewer financial borne out in the briefing that the Relationships Alliance worries or a stronger sense of personal identity. I do not provided for this debate. It talks about a host of other want to dwell on the issue unduly, but I do want to factors that can affect people, including gender, age and make the point that we have heard about family centres marital status. I am not suggesting that there is one and the need to give Government support, and there are single thing. I think it would be interesting to spend a couple of things from the past four years on which we some time looking at the factors involved. I noticed that should reflect. We should ask whether the decision to the general focus of the remarks from the hon. Member scale down Sure Start has necessarily been in the best for Congleton was on child well-being. I am also grateful interests of children. to the Relationships Alliance for the things it had to say in that respect. It points out that children growing up John Glen rose— with parents who have good-quality relationships or ones in which there is a lower level of conflict, even if Steve McCabe: I thought that might tempt the hon. the parents have separated, tend to enjoy better mental Gentleman to intervene. health and do better in a variety of other ways. I thought that the point made by the hon. Member John Glen: I would just like to point out that across for South Antrim (Dr McCrea) was that we should be the country there are 420 of the children’s contact careful not to think that this area is something that centres to which I referred, and they have never, throughout Government or agents of the Government can always their existence, received any support from the state, but address. Parents have their own responsibilities; they are supported by volunteers up and down the country. have to decide what the impact will be if they separate. I am not suggesting that people who reach that conclusion Steve McCabe: The hon. Gentleman is right: contact should not be allowed to do so, but it does seem—if I centres do not receive state funding. Sure Start centres can take the example cited at the outset—that very little did, but there are 628 fewer of them since the Government thought can have gone into the operation if people are came to power, and I suggest that they have in the past capable of separating before the end of the wedding been used as a source of support for a number of reception. It strikes me that people perhaps need to parents and families. adopt a bit more responsibility. When people decide Likewise, there is an issue about the availability of that they must go their separate ways, they have a child care. That is why, to be fair, both parties are responsibility to consider the impact on their children putting quite a stress on child care availability at present. and to shield them from the anger and bitterness that We disagree about the best way to provide it. Obviously, may be part of their separation but should not be part I am much more attached to Labour’s model of providing of their children’s lives. That is a very strong argument between 15 and 25 hours for three and four-year-olds. for encouraging mediation for couples contemplating We have to recognise the cost of child care. divorce or separation. 193WH Relationships and Children’s 21 OCTOBER 2014 Relationships and Children’s 194WH Well-being Well-being The hon. Member for Enfield, Southgate talked about hon. Gentleman recognise that step change and the way some of the mental health implications. It comes as no in which the Government have shifted from children the surprise to discover that children who are regularly burden of growing up in workless households? exposed to intense and poorly resolved conflicts involving their separating parents often suffer more as a result of Steve McCabe: It is absolutely right that children that than from the separation itself. The hon. Member should not have to grow up in workless households. Of for Congleton talked about the value of the return on course, the issue about working is the other stresses that relationship counselling. She talked about the return on it may place on parents, particularly single parents, so every pound spent. There could be an argument for we also have to consider factors such as the value of saying that there should also be counselling for children work, the level of pay and child care. who are exposed to this situation. I do not know whether that is where the hon. Member for Salisbury (John 10.40 am Glen) was going with his comments about family centre models, but it seems to me that this is not just about the The Minister of State, Department for Work and two individuals who are separating. I am happy to see Pensions (Mr Mark Harper): It is a great pleasure to money spent on providing relationship support for couples serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hollobone. I thank and help for couples who are going to separate, but just my hon. Friend the Member for Congleton (Fiona as much needs to be spent on the children. Bruce) for securing the debate. I am not the most tribal of politicians, but I note what my hon. Friend the Then, of course, we have to think about some of the Member for Enfield, Southgate (Mr Burrowes) has broader things. We need better sex and relationships said: it is disappointing that only Conservative Members— teaching for children in our schools and youth clubs. I with the honourable exception of the hon. Member for know that the hon. Member for Congleton is a great fan South Antrim (Dr McCrea)—were present, although of teaching children how to budget and manage their the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Birmingham, own affairs and how to start a business, but we also Selly Oak (Steve McCabe) made a thoughtful speech. I need to help them on issues of health, including sexual would have thought that all Members of Parliament health, and sexual relationships. The recent Children’s would take seriously the question of relationships and Commissioner report on child sexual exploitation in children’s well-being. Listening to the remarks made by teenage gangs is frightening, particularly the degree to the shadow Minister and by my hon. Friends, it struck which children who do not have sufficient support are me that we all encounter such difficult family situations in danger of thinking that what they see in porn movies in our constituency surgeries. We understand how complex is a reasonable model for how they should behave in such problems are, and we know that there are no relationships. simple answers. The ideas proposed by all hon. Members Of course, the issue of fathers is crucial. Like other today are worthy of consideration. hon. Members, I am kind of tired of the number of I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Congleton cases that I see at my advice centre of fathers who have for her supportive words yesterday at the launch of the really done nothing wrong. Their relationship has simply Relationships Alliance manifesto, where she introduced come to an end. Where there is no question of abuse or my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Work violence and no question that the father has done and Pensions, who has been a supporter and champion anything other than be part of a relationship that has of this area of policy for some time. She kindly paid come to an end, it seems to me that no court and no tribute to my right hon. Friend for having founded the parent has a right to deprive that father—or that child—of Centre for Social Justice, and to the work that the centre that relationship. In that context, I am particularly has done. We are talking about a central area of impressed by the work of the charity Families Need Government policy, and I know that my right hon. Fathers, which does quite a lot to try to bring people Friend leads it with pride. together in these circumstances. My hon. Friend the Member for Congleton mentioned A key policy ask of the Relationships Alliance is that the importance of focusing efforts at the earliest possible the Cabinet Office expand its What Works network to opportunity to prevent the damage that poor relationships include a What Works centre for families and relationships. can cause, and I will say a little more about that later. I Will the Minister say whether he has any plans to take will set out some of the work that we are doing through up that suggestion? the social justice strategy and the social justice Cabinet It is tempting to say a lot more, but I am conscious of Committee, and some of the progress that has been what you said about the time, Mr Hollobone. I want to made on putting into practice the ideas that she talked conclude by congratulating the hon. Member for Congleton about. on securing the debate. She is absolutely right to say My hon. Friend mentioned some figures on family that this is an area to which we must give the utmost breakdown. The social justice family stability indicator— consideration. that is a bit of a mouthful, but I will not turn it into an acronym—shows that 250,000 more children now live Mr Burrowes: Before the hon. Gentleman sits down, with both of their birth parents, 75,000 of them in does he recognise that there has been a huge step low-income households. Evidence shows that cohabiting change in one of the issues that affect well-being, namely parents are four times more likely to have separated by the number of children growing up in households with the time their child is three years of age and, by their at least one parent in work? The reality is that there has child’s fifth birthday, more than one in four of those been a reduction in the number of workless households, who cohabit have split up. For married parents, however, and there are now some 200,000 more children growing the break-up rate is fewer than one in 10. That is up in households where at least one parent is in work. something that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of That must be a huge factor in their well-being. Does the State focuses on, and I think it is the foundation. It is 195WH Relationships and Children’s 21 OCTOBER 2014 Relationships and Children’s 196WH Well-being Well-being [Mr Mark Harper] an increase of £200 million next year, for the troubled families programme, which my hon. Friends the Members not any form of prejudice; it is the evidence behind the for Congleton and for Enfield, Southgate mentioned. Government’s wish to recognise marriage in the tax That is a significant sum of money, which will be used system. to help some of the families who need it most in a The Prime Minister made it clear in his speech at the joined-up, co-ordinated way so that they have one Relationships Alliance, at which my right hon. Friend point of contact with the state and they do not have to the Secretary of State and my hon. Friend the Member deal with a range of organisations. The expanded for Congleton were also present, that we support those programme will work across government with an additional who bring up children in all circumstances. It is a 400,000 families from next year. difficult job. There is, however, something about the commitment that marriage entails that enables those Fiona Bruce: I thank the Minister for the emphasis couples to stay together. That may be to do with the that has been given to the troubled families programme. characteristics of those who choose to cohabit compared Will he elaborate on how the leadership shown at national with those who marry, and the fact that those with level by the Prime Minister and Ministers in the Department good-quality relationships may be more likely to marry for Work and Pensions could be replicated at a local in the first place, so one has to be careful about causal level? At present, I do not believe that we see such links. That is, however, why we want to support marriage. leadership. We do not see champions. One problem that has been highlighted in several of the reports that I My hon. Friend gave a good example of people who referred to is the fact that local data on relationship probably had not given much thought to getting married strength to inform local authorities’ health and well-being or, indeed, to staying married. People who are married strategies are inadequate. Will the Minister touch on know that marriage is not a bed of roses and it has to be what is being done to encourage local authorities to worked at, as my hon. Friend’s story illustrated. That is improve that? the reason for the introduction of the transferrable tax allowance for married couples, which my hon. Friends Mr Harper: I will say one thing now, and I will write have welcomed, from next spring. The policy sends out to my hon. Friend about the more detailed work that we an important signal about the value of marriage. When are doing. The troubled families programme has helped my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister talked about by bringing together not only bits of central Government the proposal he made the point, as did the hon. Member but local agencies in partnership with the local authority. for Birmingham, Selly Oak, that marriages can be between In my local authority in Gloucestershire, local leadership men and women, men and men, and women and women. and local agencies have been brought together as a The policy is not a discriminatory one; it is available to result. Let me take away that thought, and I will speak all who have committed relationships of that sort. to colleagues in the Department for Communities and I was delighted that my hon. Friend the Member for Local Government to find out what work is going on at Congleton set out why we need safe, stable and nurturing local government level and whether we can do more to families. I will not join her in using her four-letter create a joined-up process. acronym—one of my missions in politics is to avoid The Prime Minister also set out the family test, under acronyms and talk in plain English—but she made a which we will test all new domestic policy to see what its sensible point. The approach that underpinned the cross- impact will be on families and family relationships. I government family stability review was to make sure think that is an important step. I will not touch on the that children benefit from those characteristics, whatever other areas in great depth, because I want to talk about the structure of the family, and whether the parents are some of the issues that were raised in the debate. still together or have separated. The point came through clearly from all contributions that the important thing Mr Burrowes: I welcome the family test and the is the relationship between children and parents, whether Minister’s speech supporting that policy objective. Will or not the parents are still together. That review was he outline the timetable for that test? When will we see it supported by evidence from a range of organisations, reach fruition? I have referred to kinship care and other and the Relationship Alliance and its constituent bodies areas, so will there be a wider family test? were involved in that process. Most of the points in the manifesto that the Relationship Alliance launched yesterday Mr Harper: My understanding is that the family test were picked up in the stability review. As my hon. will effectively apply from November. From that time, Friend knows, the key policy findings of our review as Departments develop domestic policies they should were announced by the Prime Minister in his speech to consider the impact on families. My hon. Friend made the Relationship Alliance summit in August. some sensible points about grandparents and wider My hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, Southgate family relationships. I am particularly familiar with the (Mr Burrowes) asked what action we would expect the extra responsibilities of parents with disabled children Government to take if this were any other sort of social and the help that they receive from grandparents and problem. As he acknowledged, the Prime Minister is the wider family. He raises sensible points, and the leading on this. Family relationship support has been Government are considering such issues. We have ensured brought together under the Department for Work and that grandparents can claim child maintenance if they Pensions, so there is better co-ordination and oversight, are the main carers. I know he also welcomes the and the Prime Minister has committed to investing at Department for Education’s guidance on care, which least £7.5 million in relationship support every year for recommends that local authorities now consider family as long as he is Prime Minister, as my hon. Friend options first before taking children into local authority acknowledged. It is worth remembering that that is not care. There are obviously further ideas, and I think he the only funding; there is also £448 million a year, with ascribed both to himself and to my hon. Friend the 197WH Relationships and Children’s 21 OCTOBER 2014 Relationships and Children’s 198WH Well-being Well-being Member for Salisbury (John Glen) the Prime Minister’s Mr Hollobone, so that we can have a detailed response. invitation to contribute ideas both directly to him and In my constituency I have experienced cases such as to other Ministers on how we can make further progress those raised by the shadow Minister in which fathers in this area—not that either of my hon. Friends need have been involved in the upbringing of their children inviting to contribute on policy areas in which they and want that important relationship to continue, regardless both have a long-standing interest. of the fact that their relationship with the children’s We are also looking at piloting relationship education mother has broken down. I will consider that carefully. in both antenatal and post-natal provision, and we are The shadow Minister spoke about children’s centres. looking at national guidance for health visitors, who are As of February 2014 there are 3,019 main children’s well placed to spot early signs of relationship distress. centres, with a further 531 sites open to families and Through Early Intervention Foundation pioneering places, children. Since 2010, despite the significant financial we are also considering joined-up approaches that we challenges that we inherited from the Labour party, can take with local authorities. Those ongoing trials only 76 centres have closed. Indeed, six new centres may shed light on the suggestions for What Works have opened, and 90% of eligible families in need are centres made by my hon. Friend the Member for Congleton, registered with their local centre. That sounds like a including using those children’s centres as family hubs. pretty good record on providing such support at local The shadow Minister also specifically mentioned the level, even where there have had to be very difficult What Works centres. financial savings to rebalance the public finances. I think there is general consensus among colleagues I welcome what my hon. Friend the Member for that we should recognise and support the involvement Enfield, Southgate said about mental health. My of both parents, and I hope colleagues welcome that Department is working on the improving access to following the Children and Families Act 2014 there is psychological therapies pilots with the Department of now presumed shared involvement of fathers and mothers Health. Those pilots are important for ensuring that we alike. The welfare of the child still rightly comes first, do a much better job not just of addressing children’s but there is now explicit recognition that, except where mental health—he will know that that is one of the there are specific reasons why not, the presumption is passions of the Minister of State, Department of Health, that the child should have contact with both parents. my right hon. Friend the Member for North Norfolk That recognition in the legal system is welcome. (Norman Lamb), who has responsibility for care and The Government are also spending £10 million on support, and it is a passion shared by both coalition the help and support for separated families innovation parties—but of helping adults with mental health problems fund—it is admittedly not a catchy title—which covers either to stay in or return to work. Less than half of 17 projects aimed at testing interventions to help parents adults with mental health problems currently work, so going through a separation to work together and resolve the Government must improve what we are doing. I conflict. Up to September 2014 those projects engaged hope my hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, Southgate some 53,500 parents. The projects consider innovations welcomes what we have done so far, and I hope over the in delivering those services and the outcomes that we months to come he will welcome our work to improve receive from them. that still further. My hon. Friend the Member for Congleton also My hon. Friend the Member for Salisbury referred to mentioned the appointment of a Cabinet-level Minister an award he gave to Liz Sirman, who works at a with responsibility for families. The Prime Minister said children’s contact centre in his constituency. I am a in his speech that, as well as bringing together all glass-half-full kind of guy, so I welcome the Government’s relationship support policy within the Department for support for the work of volunteers in helping to support Work and Pensions, my right hon. Friend the Secretary families and children who have experienced difficult of State for Work and Pensions will be that Cabinet-level relationship breakdowns. Such work is welcomed, and I Minister. The Secretary of State has a long history in am pleased that my hon. Friend was able to recognise it this area, and he is very pleased to have been given that so publicly at the weekend. responsibility by the Prime Minister. The Secretary of The shadow Minister referred to the importance of State considers himself responsible and accountable for mediation when a relationship breaks down, and in the families, and he is already effectively doing that within Children and Families Act there is now a statutory the social justice Cabinet Committee, which he leads on requirement for people to consider mediation before some of those issues. they rush off to court, which is helpful. There will Those are some of the things that the Government clearly be cases in which mediation simply cannot work, have been doing, and in the remaining minutes I will but the fact that it has to be considered and in people’s address some of the issues that colleagues have raised in thought processes before lawyers get involved is helpful—I this debate. Both my hon. Friends the Members for am an accountant, so I can be slightly rude about Salisbury and for Enfield, Southgate mentioned joint lawyers. Having more mediation to support relationships birth registration, which was introduced in the Welfare means that, even if the parents’ relationship cannot be Reform Act 2009. I was shadowing this brief at the preserved, the relationship with their children can be time, and I distinctly remember those debates. Joint preserved, which is welcome. My hon. Friend the Member birth registration is a more complicated issue than it for Salisbury mentioned child maintenance thresholds, seems at first glance because, as both my hon. Friends and the Minister for Pensions has committed to reviewing mentioned, there are exemptions in the legislation for the formula and the threshold once the current reforms difficult cases. Other ministerial colleagues are considering have been safely implemented. that issue, so it would be sensible if I arranged for the My hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, Southgate relevant Minister to write to both my hon. Friends, to did a good job of responding to the shadow Minister on all Members attending this debate and, indeed, to you, the economic issues, but I have a couple of further 199WH Relationships and Children’s 21 OCTOBER 2014 200WH Well-being [Mr Harper] Infrastructure Investment (Stroud) points. First, children are three times more likely to be in poverty if they live in a workless family. My hon. 11 am Friend is absolutely right that there are now 290,000 fewer Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con): It is a pleasure to children living in workless households, which is good serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hollobone, and to news. That means that there are 300,000 fewer children see the Economic Secretary to the Treasury in her place. living in relative income poverty than when the Government I will raise a number of infrastructure-related issues came to office. involving my constituency. Finally, the shadow Minister referred to the importance In 13 years, the Labour Government were effectively of work and people being in jobs, which is why I am unable to find funding for the necessary redoubling of sure he will join Government Members in celebrating the Stroud to Swindon railway line. Just last week, that there are now 1.8 million more people in work who finally and quite properly, we formally opened that are able to bring home a pay packet and contribute to redoubled line with the Princess Royal, as a result of the their family. That is a positive note on which to finish coalition Government’s delivery of £45 million. The this excellent debate, which was secured by my hon. project will make it possible for my constituents to get Friend the Member for Congleton. to London faster, for tourists to get to Stroud more easily and for further works on other lines to take place Mr Philip Hollobone (in the Chair): I thank all Members while the redoubled line is used as a relief route. That is who have taken part in this extremely interesting, exceptionally good news for the valleys and vale, and it informative and important debate. clearly demonstrates that the coalition Government are delivering more investment in our rail network. To put it in context, we will have electrified 880 miles of railway line by the next general election, whereas Labour, in their entire 13 years in government, electrified just nine. The contrast between our commitment to infrastructure investment in railways and that of the previous Labour Government is stark. The second big project for which I have been campaigning successfully is £5 million of investment in the GREEN— Gloucestershire Renewable Energy, Engineering and Nuclear—Skills Centre at Berkeley, a training centre for renewable and nuclear energy and engineering. The great triumph is that the project will be housed in the former Magnox engineering works for the Berkeley power station, which is being decommissioned. The process is effectively complete. It is a useful project for my constituency, in terms of providing opportunities for young people in the key areas of energy and engineering. It has been spearheaded by Stroud college, now merged with Filton college, and it is yet another example of our focus on delivering opportunities for young people by ensuring that further education can develop, and by providing facilities, such as through the infrastructure investment of £5 million at Berkeley. That is the background to my submission for other investments in the valleys and vale in the forthcoming years. Following the success of getting £45 million for the redoubling of the Stroud-Kemble railway line, £5 million for the GREEN project at Berkeley and a load of other additional moneys, I want to set out the case for more investment in the valleys and vale. I start with my campaign for a university technical college in Berkeley. When we have the buildings for the GREEN Skills Centre, it will make sense to have a UTC, so that we can focus on engineering and provide appropriate skills for our growing manufacturing sector, particularly in advanced manufacturing, an area in which Stroud already has an excellent reputation. Firms such as Renishaw, Delphi, Dairy Crest, Omega Resource Group and others contribute to an exceptional level of growth and huge opportunities for young people. That is why we currently enjoy just 1.2% unemployment, a huge change from what I inherited back in 2010, when more than 1,400 people were unemployed. That number is now 630, largely because the real economy has taken 201WH Infrastructure Investment (Stroud)21 OCTOBER 2014 Infrastructure Investment (Stroud) 202WH off. We are not only translating that into jobs for Wride, John Stanton and Robert Evans. They and many hard-working families, improving their chances of avoiding others have contributed powerfully to the discussion on poverty, as the Minister of State, Department for Work these issues. and Pensions, my hon. Friend the Member for Forest of I ought to mention that infrastructure is about not Dean (Mr Harper) said in the previous debate; we are just roads and rail, although they are important, but also seeing some growth in wages and salaries. That is protecting the valleys and vale, so reference needs to be really impressive, and it is exactly what I want to bring made to the tremendous work that the Government about. have done to ensure that we are properly protected The second project that I will discuss is investment in against flooding. The Environment Agency has done a Stonehouse. It is absurd that people from Stroud and huge amount, having received funding for various projects, Stonehouse must go via Gloucester or Swindon to get and I am off to Lapper Ditch on Friday to see the to Bristol. It is not good for growth or for individuals results of the £700,000 being spent on a significant seeking opportunities in Bristol or elsewhere. I want a flood defence project there. That work is all about railway station in Stonehouse, so people can get from recognising that the area I represent has huge value, there to Bristol easily and swiftly. It is appropriate needs to be protected and has people who make massive because the business case stacks up. There is substantial contributions to our economy and who need to be growth in the business parks in Stonehouse, and there is supported. I am pleased, therefore, that we have made also a case for ensuring that commuters can get to so much progress in improving flood defences. Of course, Bristol and Birmingham more easily. The project would there is more to do and I will constantly ensure that be easily facilitated if we could get agreement from flood defences are maintained and, where necessary, various stakeholders, and if it were consistent with the improved. We need to be vigilant, but I want to put on electrification of the line, which is targeted for 2020. the record my thanks to the Government for contributing so much additional money in recognition of the need to I believe that infrastructure can produce growth in defend our beautiful part of England, which is the areas that have been a bit isolated. Sharpness is a good valleys and vale. example. At one point, it was connected to the Forest of To reinforce my case, I have surveyed a large number Dean by a bridge over the Severn. There is a case for of people in my constituency about which infrastructure doing so again. Not only do the communities like to be projects they think are important. They have saluted the together—they would like to be reunited—but Sharpness projects that have already been delivered, to which I has a huge amount of growth potential, with a thriving have referred. Indeed, almost all the projects I have port and many industries around it. Connecting it to announced have attracted considerable support in the the Forest of Dean would bring more growth and ease survey. It is a real piece of evidence that needs to be congestion around the A40 and A38. taken into account. People understand what we are One project that deserves special mention is tackling trying to do and why, and therefore they support our the A417 bottleneck. It is bang in the middle of efforts. Gloucestershire, and it has a terrible record of road I have received a huge amount of advice, and it is accidents; deaths are all too frequent. We must end the critical that I demonstrate that it has underpinned so congestion that it causes. Gloucestershire county council much of the efforts that I have talked about. For example, has made a strong case for something to be done. I am the Institution of Civil Engineers has been a really keen for the Minister to recognise the strength of that interesting source of advice, in terms of the value that it case, so that we can deliver for Gloucestershire a solution attaches to infrastructure investment. Closer to home, to a long-term issue that has caused problems for not the local enterprise partnership has been powerful in just the people of Gloucestershire but people going articulating the case for these projects. In fact, in its through the area, the industries, supply chains and former guise, as Gloucestershire First, it was pivotal in everything that depends on decent connections. helping to secure the £45 million of funding from the Government, and it has also helped to promote the case It is also critical to consider the M5. That is more of a for the GREEN project at Berkeley through its strategic long-term project, but junction 14 is a source of difficulty economic plan. for commuters and hauliers due to the peculiar traffic Gloucestershire county council—and indeed Stroud arrangement there. It is also important to recognise the district council, although it is Labour-led—has been need to improve access from Dursley through Cam to quite good at advancing the case for investment. Stroud the M5. I have not yet made up my mind whether that district council has, in its plan, the idea for a bridge will involve reconstructing junction 14 or building a from Sharpness to the Forest of Dean, and it recognises new junction, because that is properly a matter for civil that Stonehouse railway station needs to be upgraded engineers to explore, but we need to get that debate on or moved. I can therefore say that a large number of the table. stakeholders have contributed to this discussion, and I Essentially, I have set out infrastructure projects for am really pleased to make that point to the Minister as the future of the valleys and vale that make a huge further evidence of the strength of the case I am making. amount of sense in terms of economic growth. There is With the economy growing in the Stroud valleys and a good case for each of the projects, and taken together, vale, there are some pressures. One of them, slightly they will provide opportunities for our young people paradoxically given my emphasis on road transport, is a and businesses to thrive and prosper, which is exactly shortage of lorry drivers, newly trained lorry drivers in what we want. I set up a commission to look into those particular. I want to put on the record the need for us to matters, which is why I can use so much evidence and so encourage young people to consider that career as a many facts to support each case. I thank the various possibility, because if we do not deal with logistical members of my commission, including Councillor Penny challenges, we might find that growth does not happen 203WH Infrastructure Investment (Stroud)21 OCTOBER 2014 Infrastructure Investment (Stroud) 204WH

[Neil Carmichael] —£100 billion of capital investment in projects during the next Parliament—and the steps that we have already as quickly as we would like, or in the way that we would taken to support private sector investment, for example like. I make a plea to anyone listening to this debate: through the creation of the UK guarantees scheme and consider encouraging young people to move into haulage. by ensuring the independence of our regulators for key My last point is that for three years I have been utility sectors. It also lays out the action that we have running a festival of manufacturing and engineering. I taken to strengthen planning, whereby a number of have attracted support from a wide range of businesses, improvements have helped to take the number of planning and I have made sure that schools and colleges understand approvals to a 13-year high. and support the idea that young people can have a We are continuing to streamline the system, including future in manufacturing and engineering. If we consider through the new specialist planning court for infrastructure, that in the context of how our real economy can grow, it which opened in April, and the measures published in is our responsibility to put in place the infrastructure the Infrastructure Bill. The national infrastructure plan for that growth to happen unhindered. That is why it is also lays out the action that we are taking on delivery, to important for us to have better links with London, make sure that we have the capability in the public through rail; why we need improvements to roads through sector to deliver projects on time, on budget and to Gloucestershire, such as the A417; why we need facilities specification. That also means having delivery bodies to train young people in engineering and the energy with the right structure to provide the autonomy and industries; and why we need to take the whole package operational flexibility that are necessary to ensure success. together and consider what we can do next for the Corporatisation of the Highways Agency will provide Stroud valleys and vale, to ensure that any growth is not that in the roads sector, where we are about to see the only sustained but increases. biggest programme of investment since the 1970s. We are already making big progress. Major infrastructure 11.15 am projects are now being completed, including major The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Andrea improvements at Reading station, smart motorways to Leadsom): Thank you, Mr Hollobone, for calling me to relieve congestion up and down the country, and a new speak. I am delighted to be here in Westminster Hall terminal 2 at Heathrow to enhance our international today, and I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member connectivity. In fact, more than 2,000 infrastructure for Stroud (Neil Carmichael) on securing this debate. projects and improvements have been completed over the last four years. The quality of a nation’s infrastructure is one of the In this financial year alone, more than 200 projects foundations of its growth and, of course, the living are due to start and another 200 are due to complete, standards of its people, so ensuring that Britain has and that will directly support over 150,000 jobs in the first-class infrastructure is a crucial part of our long-term construction industry.These projects are part of £36 billion economic plan, supporting businesses, creating jobs of investment planned for 2014-15. and providing a better future for all our citizens. The Government are taking steps to ensure that the We need to equip the UK to compete on the global benefits of investment in infrastructure are distributed stage by giving businesses the infrastructure they need across the country to generate growth, create jobs and to thrive. That is why the Government have put long-term help rebalance the economy. The south-west region is investment in transport, energy, telecommunications, no exception, with more than £18 billion of planned flood defences and intellectual capital at the heart of investment in the published infrastructure pipeline across our growth plan. Because of the tough decisions we 31 different projects and programmes. This investment have taken in day-to-day spending, we can prioritise includes a number of key projects within the Government’s public investment where it is most needed and create the top 40 priority infrastructure investments, including right conditions for private investment in infrastructure, Hinkley Point C, the first new nuclear power station in a where such investment can bring value for the taxpayer. generation, and the Great Western rail electrification—my The national infrastructure plan sets out the hon. Friend knows that work is currently under way to Government’s strategy for delivering the infrastructure improve one of Britain’s oldest and busiest railways. that the UK will need during the next decade and Other projects include the A380 Kingskerswell bypass, beyond. Our intention is to improve further our approach which is currently in construction; the expansion of the to planning, financing and delivering this critical economic National Composites Centre in Bristol as part of the infrastructure as we go through a significant period of Government’s science and innovation catapult programme; renewal. We have outlined a pipeline of projects and supporting the roll-out of superfast broadband with programmes worth more than £380 billion, and in the more than 6,500 premises now passed by the south Budget we published further analysis of how we expect Gloucestershire and Wiltshire broadband scheme; and that pipeline to be financed. That work builds on the the designation of Bristol as a super-connected city. long-term funding settlements we have already announced I, too, welcome the completion of the redoubling of for sectors such as roads, rail and flood defences, and the track from Swindon to Kemble. This key piece of the steps that we have taken to support private sector infrastructure will support our wider ambitions to electrify investment. the Great Western main line, significantly improving The national infrastructure plan not only sets out the connectivity for the south-west. I congratulate my hon. Government’s decisions as to what infrastructure our Friend on his persistence in making the case for this country will need during the next decade and beyond work. I am sure that it will make a positive contribution but sets out our strategy for how we will bring that to those living and working in his area. I confirm that it infrastructure about. It lays out how the pipeline of was indeed extra cash found by this Government in its projects will be financed, building on both the long-term very first Budget that enabled the Swindon to Kemble public funding settlements that we have already announced line improvements to go ahead. 205WH Infrastructure Investment (Stroud) 21 OCTOBER 2014 206WH

Along with my hon. Friend, I welcome the local Separated Families Initiative growth funding provided to the Gloucestershire local enterprise partnership to convert the redevelopment of Berkeley power station to provide a training centre for [MR GARY STREETER in the Chair] science, technology, engineering, and maths skills. This is just part of £62.5 million provided to the local enterprise 2.30 pm partnership by central Government, and it will bring Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab): It is a great forward at least £80 million of additional investment pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Streeter. from local partners and the private sector. I understand that the Minister for Pensions, who normally I thank my hon. Friend for his active engagement leads for the Government on this area, is unable to be with the local community and am interested to hear his here today, but I am sure we can have a helpful and further ideas for infrastructure improvements in the productive debate. I welcome the Minister for Employment Stroud valleys and vale area. He can rest assured that I in his place. will write straight away to my ministerial colleagues in Within the past year, the Government have made the Department for Transport, asking that they provide significant changes to child maintenance policy, an update on his proposals for a new station at Stonehouse, implementing the legislation that went through as part an additional Severn crossing at Sharpness, a solution of the Welfare Reform Act 2012. First, the Child Support to congestion on the A417 and improvements to the M5 Agency has been wound down. Pre-existing child at junction 14. maintenance arrangements, which are used by nearly 2 In the meantime, I hope that both he and I can agree million parents, are being terminated over the next three that the Government should continue to focus on their years. Secondly, all would-be applicants to its statutory existing commitment to deliver key infrastructure schemes replacement, the child maintenance service, must first throughout the country, including in the south-west. talk to the child maintenance options service, where they are encouraged to make their own arrangements 11.23 am instead. Finally, for those parents who choose to use the Sitting suspended. CMS, a £20 application charge has been introduced, along with collection charges if parents fail to pay maintenance. The clear policy intent is to encourage parents to sort out their own arrangements following relationship breakdown. The Government’s argument has been—and, I presume, remains—that family-based arrangements, as they are being called, will be better, because payers will be happier to pay if they have made the arrangements themselves. Further to that, the Government have asserted that the statutory system that has been in place for some years makes relationships between separated parties worse, because it creates bad feeling and anger. They think that the system might reduce willingness to pay, and encourage payers to look for a way to avoid payment. Throughout, I have been a sceptic about that line of argument. In my experience, the circumstances of separation generate considerable anger and distress, and it is those feelings that often have to be worked with and worked through. As the period of separation continues, a failure to pay maintenance causes ongoing bad feeling. We know that parents with care suffer considerable financial detriment after separation. Indeed, generally both parties to a divorce suffer financial detriment, but the parent with care, whatever their gender, is the one who, in all the research, suffers the most. If proper payment arrangements are not in place, considerable resentment and anger can build up. Given the Government’s approach, and that the reform is partly about trying to get people to change their behaviour, it is hugely important to ensure that parents get the sort of practical help and support they need to enable them to come to workable arrangements, especially given the changes to legal aid, which mean that people might not be getting the level of legal assistance they once had. That is where the £20 million Help and Support for Separated Families programme is supposed to come in. I will henceforth refer to it as HSSF, rather than saying the entire mouthful. I know it is not always terribly friendly to use abbreviations, but not using this one would become cumbersome and clumsy. I am afraid 207WH Separated Families Initiative21 OCTOBER 2014 Separated Families Initiative 208WH

[Sheila Gilmore] across the country. Can the Minister tell us more about how the network is working in practice and how many that the research I have undertaken shows that the parents have used it? programme of support for separating and separated The third initiative of the HSSF programme is what families is piecemeal and inadequate. the Government’s original White Paper referred to as a There are four main initiatives that come under the “quality mark”. It was to HSSF programme, and I will set out my concerns on “become a mark that parents can recognise and trust, so they each in turn. The first is the Sorting out Separation know the service they are accessing is of a consistently high service, which is a key online information and support quality and will be able to help them to work together with the resource for separated parents, signposting them to other parent.” relevant help. Between November 2012 and January It was developed at a cost of £136,500, and 35 organisations 2014, only 9,132 users clicked on a signpost to an have so far been awarded what is now called the HSSF external organisation, compared with the original target mark. My concern is that the mark is not well understood of 260,000. More people visited the front page, but the or even recognised by parents. My impression is that the important thing is whether people are following through organisations that put a lot of work into applying for to get the more detailed help they need, because the and being awarded the mark have seen little in return. I initial information on the website is not sufficient to am unaware of any promotion of the mark to parents allow people to enter into arrangements. Given that the by the Department, so I hope that the Minister will be website cost more than £400,000 to set up—that was the able to tell us what steps are being taken in that regard. figure by January, at least—it has cost more than £45 for The fourth and most significant element of the HSSF every user signposted. I emphasise that the figures for initiative is the innovation fund, which accounted for this year come after an attempted redesign, which has £14 million of the total £20 million to be spent in the clearly had a limited effect. current spending review period up to March 2015. An evaluation commissioned by the Department for According to the White Paper that preceded the legislation, Work and Pensions and carried out between February the fund was set up and June last year reported that users were often unclear “to learn what works best in helping separating and separated about the purpose of the site and the range of information parents to collaborate and resolve conflict in order to support it offered. They were frustrated by the low level of detail their children”. supplied prior to signposting. Videos on the site were In the first round of funding in April 2013, £6.5 million felt to be “unreal”, with unrealistically positive endings, was awarded to seven projects across the country over a and a potentially useful action planning tool was criticised two-year period. Between them, they anticipated reaching for offering only general signposting and not tailored just over 280,000 parents. A second round of funding information. Of particular concern, given that existing worth £3.4 million came on stream in April 2014 and formal statutory arrangements are coming to an end, was awarded to 10 further projects aiming to reach was the finding that the site was “less relevant and some 12,800 parents. For the first time, projects aimed useful” for longer-term separated parents. Some 70% of at longer-term separated parents were also included. I the parents who will have their CSA cases closed have accept that this is relatively small-scale innovation funding; been separated for five years or longer, 40% have no bearing in mind that nearly 2 million parents who have contact with the other parent and 14% describe relations arrangements through the CSA are being taken off that as “not at all friendly”. The inadequacy of the Sorting following the new legislation, innovation projects coming out Separation service might mean that they will find it in that will reach only perhaps 8,000 or 10,000 parents unhelpful, and if they find it unhelpful, they will not be will not make much of an impression on the large able to enter into new informal arrangements and will number of parents affected by this major change. find themselves back in the formal system through the Since starting in Scotland on 14 March, the family new CMS. decision making service—one of this year’s funded In April, the Minister for Pensions said that the projects that provides internet and telephone advice Department was from Children 1st, One Parent Families Scotland and the Scottish Child Law Centre—has seen more families “in the process of considering the future direction of the Sorting making informal arrangements. A particularly innovative out Separation web app and will shortly be taking steps to aspect of its work has been designing publicity material improve the profile of the app through search engine optimisation.”—[Official Report, 8 April 2014; Vol. 579, c. 214W.] to appeal more to fathers, which has led to more men using the service than would typically be expected. Can the Minister for Employment tell us what the However, only 13 months’ funding was made available, future of the service is, whether usage beyond the home which is a very short time in which to judge the success page has risen and what steps have been taken to of any project. improve the content so that long-term separated parents Moving beyond anecdotal evidence of performance are catered for? is difficult. In the 18 months since the first tranche of The second arm of the HSSF programme funding is money was awarded, we have received little in the way the co-ordinated telephone network. It is a telephone of objective information. In March, we learned in a service provided by four organisations: Relate, parliamentary answer that, as at 31 January 2014, 3,724 Family Lives, the National Youth Advocacy Service, parents had participated in the seven first-round projects. and Wikivorce. The service began full operation in Although it was early days—I know that the Relate March 2014 at a cost of £344,000. While I respect all the project started late—that does seem low nearly halfway organisations concerned and the work they do, it is through the two-year funding period compared with questionable whether they can provide the scale of the expected figure of over 280,000 parents by the end support necessary for separating and separated parents of the round-one projects. Unless there has been substantial 209WH Separated Families Initiative21 OCTOBER 2014 Separated Families Initiative 210WH take-up since then, we will fall far short of what is still a The process is personal and can lead to difficult modest number of parents coming into contact with periods in most people’s lives, and people do not necessarily such help and advice. Will the Minister give us an get the best information from word of mouth. Family update on the numbers of parents who have participated and friends can offer emotional support, but they do in the seven round-one projects so far and how that not always give people the best advice in such situations. compares with expected levels at this stage? As a family lawyer, I met people who had been told Evaluation has also been significantly delayed, partly weird and wonderful things about what they could or due to Department concerns around data protection. could not get. Such sources can also be out of date, That is particularly problematic given that many projects because people will talk about things that happened to are coming to an end and closing, and staff are likely to them in the past. However useful such advice can be as move into new employment, meaning that any evaluation a starting point, it is crucial that those who want to get that does take place will happen while the projects are more personal advice—many will—can do so, whether winding down, which seems unsatisfactory. Earlier this one-to-one, or in a group setting where people feel year, the Minister for Pensions confirmed that the comfortable and can ask the silly questions that it takes Government were in the process of appointing an external confidence to ask. We do not appear to have reached specialist to lead on the evaluation work. Is the Minister the stage of even looking at that, but it is important that who is present today in a position to tell us whether an we do. external evaluator has been appointed, who they will be On the March 2015 date, and the innovation projects and what the time scale of the evaluation will be? set up to test what worked and what did not, it would be This is about not just getting the evaluation started, helpful to know how much information we will have, but what the criteria will be. It was therefore disappointing because there has been little evaluation so far. What to hear the Minister for Pensions state in January that guarantees do we have that what has been found to the evaluation criteria for the 17 projects would be work will be scaled up to the numbers necessary? Even published with the final results. We therefore do not beyond 2015, more than 1 million parents will have know the criteria, and will not know them until the arrangements with the CSA that have yet to be closed evaluation has been carried out, so people have not had down. In addition, all the people with new separations, the opportunity to comment on whether the evaluation whose relationships are only beginning to break down, is appropriate. The difficulty that that presents is that, will want to come forward for help. What system will be as far as I can establish, the evaluation will not include in place to help those families sort out their child receipt of child maintenance as one of the criteria by maintenance collaboratively? If the Government are which the success of the projects aimed at improving serious about wanting people to make such arrangements parental collaboration will be judged. That is despite so that maintenance is paid for the benefit of the the fact that the innovation fund projects flow directly children, we have to ensure that proper support and from the child maintenance reforms, and despite the advice is in place. White Paper stating that the initiatives would Tim Loughton (East Worthing and Shoreham) (Con): “seek to support parents to reach their own arrangements, therefore I disclose an interest as chairman of the Mindful Policy avoiding both the statutory child maintenance system”. Group, which has done some work in this area. I have It seems odd that that particular aspect is not to be listened to the hon. Lady’s comments with great interest. evaluated in the process. We will not necessarily know, May I take her to a related issue, which is the point at even at the end, whether there has been any significant which parents split up in the first place? Does she agree success in getting people to not only meet and talk, but that everything she is talking about in the relationship enter into family-based arrangements, and in getting after the separation of the parents would be so much maintenance flowing. better if children were placed rather more at the centre The HSSF funding ends in March 2015. My final of proceedings in the courtroom, so that the parents questions concern what future funding will be made remembered that although they may divorce, children available to support the initiative. cannot? The continued welfare of their child should be their prime consideration.

Yvonne Fovargue (Makerfield) (Lab): My hon. Friend Sheila Gilmore: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his is making an excellent speech on an important subject, contribution. Most people, at least in theory, believe and I congratulate her on securing this debate. She that they are putting their children first; they might not mentioned the schemes that have gone ahead, but is she be doing so in practice, but the reason for that is often as concerned as I am about the parts that did not go the huge emotional upset in their lives. In the midst of ahead—the local and face-to-face support that people that, especially if they are not getting the help that they were to be get in places where they felt comfortable? I need, they are not best placed to put their children first, know from personal experience how difficult separation even when sometimes they think that they are doing so. is when one has a young child. There are many new I know how difficult it is for many people to behave in a agencies to contact, but is it not important that people collaborative manner at such a time and to act out the can access advice from places where they feel comfortable? issues around putting the children first. We need people to be able to work together, not only Sheila Gilmore: I thank my hon. Friend for her on maintenance, but in the wider context. The particular intervention. That is a hugely important part of the change made, however, was about maintenance, and it process. It is all very well to have information available is crucial to people’s ongoing relationships to get that through modern methods of dissemination—being able right. That is crucial to children, not only to ensure that to get basic information online cannot be a bad thing—but the money is flowing, but because if it is not, the signposting to other places appears to be lacking. relationship between the parents must be even worse. 211WH Separated Families Initiative21 OCTOBER 2014 Separated Families Initiative 212WH

[Sheila Gilmore] referred to families and to children in particular. I will focus on that, because for me the effect on children is Ultimately, given the scale of the task—a huge task one of the most significant issues. has been taken on—and the reality of people’s lives, the More than 100,000 children are affected by divorce £20 million so far allocated to the programme is a drop and it is estimated that one in three children in the in the ocean. Given the low use of the Sorting out UK will experience parental separation before the age Separation service, the limited nature of the HSSF of 16. Approximately one half of couples divorcing in telephone network, the lack of promotion of the HSSF 2010 had at least one child aged under 16, and more mark, the small number of families supported by the than one fifth were under the age of five. Those innovation fund and the lack of local and face-to-face figures are truly distressing, as I think everyone support, the money being spent is simply not helping acknowledges, because the family is something that we enough families. all cherish. The debate in Westminster Hall at 9.30 this Family-based arrangements have to be made and morning, which unfortunately I was unable to attend, also sustained. Relationships change, and what was also about the family. In a way, we are following on happens when people first separate is not all that matters, from that this afternoon, giving the CSA flavour to the because as time passes relationships sometimes worsen; wider debate. they do not necessarily get better. Sometimes that is I believe passionately in families and in the need to because of other constraints that come into people’s have them stay together as much as possible for all those lives. The financial reality of separation sometimes reasons and for the sake of those birthdays, Christmases, bites after months or even years of separation, and new new years, fathers’ and mothers’ days, and all the things relationships can come into the picture, changing the that bring parents and children together. Good-quality dynamics of the original relationship and what is couples, families and social relationships are the cornerstone financially viable for the people involved. Ongoing of our society and they are vital for the well-being of support, not only initial support, is therefore likely to be our children as they become adults and enter relationships required. Family-based arrangements, even if entered themselves. Often, what children see at home is the into successfully at the outset, might break down under relationship that they will build themselves over the those pressures. following years. Poor relationship quality and instability As I have done in similar debates, I put in a plug for are associated with a wide range of negative outcomes the Government seriously to consider copying and for children and adults, and the impact on adults can promoting the Scottish minute-of-agreement system, include ill health, depression, stress, financial difficulties which, without going anywhere near a court, can transform and unemployment. I welcome the initiative because it a family-based agreement into something that is legally sets out to reduce conflict and improve parental binding and enforceable. The system has been in operation collaboration to focus on the needs of children—something in Scotland for many years. It has enabled many couples which is sometimes overlooked in messy divorces. to get something down at a time when they are in However, the hon. Member for Edinburgh East also agreement. It is as enforceable as a court order, and set out some examples of how we can best bring those gives the agreement a status and sustainability that is things about—perhaps the Minister could confirm those valuable, although the agreement can be changed if that for us. As a Member of Parliament, I have to deal with is required. two or three cases involving CSA problems each week. I am not familiar enough with English family law to They are very real to the people affected who come to know whether such a system needs legislation. If so, my office—more often it is the ladies, although occasionally however, I strongly recommend it to English colleagues it is a stay-at-home husband who finds himself in a as one that combines the best of both worlds: people position where, because of the difficulties, he is seeking may not only reach their own agreement, rather than money from the wage earner. But more often than not it having one forced on them, but have something that is is the ladies, and when they come in, their children are enforceable and sustainable through the vicissitudes of with them, and it is the children I want to focus on. separation, which is a process rather than an event. Looking through my notes before this debate, I came I hope that the Minister will be able to respond to my across an important quotation about one gentleman’s questions and set out what the Government will do to experience: address my concerns. I would be grateful in particular “Long before you get to the welfare state, it is family that is for greater clarity on the monitoring and evaluation of there to care for you when you are sick or when you fall on tough all four strands of the HSSF programme to ensure that times. It’s family that brings up children, teaches values, passes on the Government’s stated objective, which is to reduce knowledge, instils in us all the responsibility to be good citizens families’ need to rely on the statutory maintenance and to live in harmony with others.” service while ensuring that maintenance still flows to Clearly, the family is the core. the children who need it, is met. Tim Loughton: The hon. Gentleman follows these 2.57 pm issues carefully. The point I was making earlier was about the effect on children. The cost of family breakdown Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I congratulate the is estimated at something like £48 billion, yet many hon. Member for Edinburgh East (Sheila Gilmore) on non-resident parents pay their full dues through CSA, bringing this subject before us for debate and consideration, but do not get access to their children because of and on the balanced way she laid out the legislative constant breaches of contact orders. Does he agree that change and her opinion of what we have before us. I parental alienation, which is an offence in other countries, also commend the intervention of the hon. Member for is another form of child abuse? That is why it is so East Worthing and Shoreham (Tim Loughton), who important that, before we get to all the wrangles in the 213WH Separated Families Initiative21 OCTOBER 2014 Separated Families Initiative 214WH court system that result in CSA settlements, parents parental alienation, but money can be used as a bargaining remember that the children are the most important tool as well. If arrangements are too informal, is there thing and their welfare must be paramount. not a risk that that will happen?

Jim Shannon: I agree with the hon. Gentleman Jim Shannon: That is very much the case. In my wholeheartedly. There are unfortunately occasions on constituency, many partners came to an agreement before which one parent is restricted from visiting, as he will the legislative change. In many cases that has worked, know, because of circumstances in their past—so it but in others, money becomes another weapon in the does happen, although there are exceptions—but by armoury to create division or a reason to hit back at the and large, for 99.9% of cases, I wholeheartedly agree. other person and restrict access. I know of such examples, It is important to consider not just divorce, but and there were some from other parts of the country in separation and conflict within families. The evidence the Library information pack—I have not cornered the proves that stable homes, where the family enjoy good market in those examples. For example, the male partner relations, have a far better impact on children and in the relationship might have a job but then decide to adolescents than homes where that is not the case. For go self-employed, and then when he makes his books up example, children growing up with parents who have at the end of the year, they show a much lower income good-quality relationships and where parental conflict than he actually has. I cannot prove emphatically that is low—whether the parents are a couple or are separated he is making x amount, but we can always judge what partners—enjoy better physical and mental health and someone is making by the car they drive, the house that better emotional well-being, and sometimes higher academic they live in or their lifestyle—for example, do they eat attainment and a lower likelihood of engaging in what I out? Sometimes people are quite clearly living a lifestyle would refer to as risky behaviours. At the same time, that does not accord with their tax returns—that could evidence shows associations between parental relationship be worth looking into. The hon. Lady is absolutely breakdown and child poverty, behavioural problems right: money becomes a bargaining tool. Some people and emotional health problems, as well as an increased try to make it work and others do not; it is those others risk of the children’s own relationships breaking down. who we are trying to get at. Very often, when the partnership between a man and woman breaks down, the children and the effect on Just over a quarter of households with dependent them go unseen, but the children are the ones I see when children are single-parent families, and there are 2 million people come to my office. single parents in Britain today, a figure that has remained consistent since the mid-1990s. That is one reason why I Arguments over money rank as the No. 1 source of feel the HSSF initiative merits some support. There is conflict in relationships. When parents break up, arguments too much divorce, separation and division. It is sad that over money continue, only this time as legal arguments many of our children are unable to grow up with mum through the courts. Research by Relate shows that the and dad together. For that reason, we should encourage couples who were worst affected by the recession were counselling for couples to help them work through eight times as likely to suffer relationship breakdown. I issues and, we hope, stay together. note that the Prime Minister himself has indicated that the budget for relationship counselling is to be doubled The initial information we have indicates that there is to £19.5 million. Perhaps that is an indication of the a £20 charge for some single-parent families. Nearly two Government’s commitment to trying to address this fifths of the UK’s 2 million single-parent families receive issue. Will the Minister say how the money will be child maintenance payments from the child’s other parent. distributed and whether there are areas in the country Perhaps putting a £20 charge on those families has with greater problems than others? meant that the take-up has not been as good as it could have been, which would indicate that the system needs Wages remain stagnant and the price of living continues to be reviewed. Again, will the Minister give us some to rise, particularly for the thousands of families in the information on that? UK facing mortgage repayment issues, negative equity and the need to provide for children. Financial hardship Not every child who has experienced divorce and is difficult to escape, so I cannot say I find the statistic I separation will experience long-term harm. I see that have quoted particularly surprising. Again, it underlines with those who come to my office. The quality of the issue of how the system can work best for the parenting, a lack of financial hardship and whether children and the separated partners. parents go through multiple relationships following Money continues to be an issue even if separation separation are also thought to be key to the well-being occurs. For example, statistics show that children in of the child. Evidence suggests that helping more parents single-parent families are twice as likely as children to work together throughout a child’s life means that in couple families to live in relative poverty. Over four in the number of children missing out on relationships 10 children in single-parent families—some 43%—are with both parents and their extended families is likely to poor, compared with just over two in 10, or 22%, of reduce. If, as I believe, that is the goal of the initiative, children in couple families. Again, that is an indication we should support it, but we need to address the issues of the problems we have. raised by hon. Members in this debate. There is no doubt in my mind that a constructive and Sheila Gilmore: I am glad the hon. Gentleman has non-confrontational approach is important. Often, fighting raised the issue of the poverty of many separated families, through courts can become tit for tat, as the hon. particularly those with the main care of the children, as Member for Edinburgh East has suggested. That in I mentioned. Is it not particularly important that financial turn will have only a negative impact on children as arrangements are put in place and are secure? The hon. time goes by and the problems between the couple Member for East Worthing and Shoreham talked about remain unresolved. 215WH Separated Families Initiative21 OCTOBER 2014 Separated Families Initiative 216WH

[Jim Shannon] be a failure somewhere in the HSSF process in my constituent’s case, and I worry that the problem is more Of course it would be wonderful if divorce and widespread. The child in this case now has less money separation did not have to occur, but at times they do. per month, while the father is paying more per month. The least we can do in those situations is to ensure that How can that possibly be of any benefit to the child or children remain the focus and the priority. Break-ups the parents involved? will affect children; however, by following the aims of the initiative, the impact can be short term and minimal. Dame Anne Begg (Aberdeen South) (Lab): I am quite I ask the Minister to take on board the issue of the disturbed to hear of that experience, because it sounds initial cost. A system that tries to get a working agreement very much like the criticisms we made of the previous between both parties is commendable, but will she tell Child Support Agency. Often, the non-resident parent us what action can be taken if it does not work? As the was chased for extra money without having gone through hon. Member for Edinburgh East said, we do not want an understandable reassessment. That is quite concerning, the two parents fighting over money in the courts. The because the whole point of the new system was to sort fact that two parents are separating or getting a divorce cases out long before they got to the CMS itself. does not mean that they are separating or getting a divorce from their children. Children are an integral part of all this, and we must do all we can to make that Pamela Nash: I completely agree with my hon. Friend. very clear to the children who are affected. The reason the issue has upset and angered me enough that I have come here to make my case today is that we were all very hopeful when we knew a new child 3.9 pm maintenance service was required. As constituency MPs, Pamela Nash (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab): I congratulate we all have big CSA work loads—like others, I have my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh East (Sheila personal experience of this issue—and we wanted the Gilmore) on securing this important debate. I will not proposals to be a big success. I therefore hope that my repeat the points hon. Members have made, but this is a constituent’s case is indicative just of teething problems, welcome opportunity to discuss the impact of HSSF, as not of how the CMS will work in the future. well as the expectations of it and of the new CMS. My constituent’s case also underlined my general The goal of the CMS must, of course, be to ensure concerns about the introduction of fees and how they that children are well provided for and looked after by will impact on children and families. I therefore renew both parents when those parents are separated. At a my plea for the Government to publish, at the earliest time when child poverty is rising—latest figures show opportunity, the information and analysis they have on that one in four children in my constituency live in the impact the measures are having on children. I hope poverty—maintenance has a crucial role to play. For the the Minister will be able to tell us today when that poorest single-parent families, it can provide up to a might be. fifth of their household income, which is a huge amount The debate also gives me the opportunity to discuss for them. It is therefore important that the Government the closure of cases from the 1993 and 2003 schemes make this good new project a success, and if they are to and how those might go through HSSF and into the reduce the use of a statutory maintenance service, which CMS. Will the Minister update us on what progress has they have said is their goal, and to support families to been made? My understanding from a written answer form their own maintenance agreements, the success of from the Minister for Pensions is that the closure process HSSF will be absolutely fundamental. is due to go on until May 2018 and that the last cases to The service is in its early stages, but the case of a be covered are those in which constituent who came to my surgery last week gave me “Enforcement action is under way”—[Official Report,1July some concern about its success so far and about how it 2014; Vol. 583, c. 526W.] might be improved. My constituent’s case made me feel that it is not really clear when a case is eligible to be In many ways, those are the cases deemed most difficult referred to the CMS, and I would love the Minister to to deal with. give us some clarity today. At the moment, parents are To return to the matter we are debating, I am concerned required to seek advice first and then to get a reference that the HSSF initiative is due to be funded only until number to go to the CMS. I should have thought that March 2015, whereas the process of case closure is due that would happen when the parents had exhausted all to go on until May 2018. The cases involved are the other avenues in trying to come to an agreement on most difficult and would, I imagine, need the support their own. HSSF offers to make a successful transition. Does the My understanding from the information my constituent Minister share my concerns? Are the Government gave me, however, is that he had paid maintenance considering extending the funding of the HSSF initiative regularly every month for more than 10 years and had, beyond March and indeed until after May 2018, when indeed, upped the payment following a request from the the case closures are due to end? receiving parent, but that he then received a letter from Let me finish my short remarks by returning to where the CMS with a payment plan. My understanding is I started and to the reason why we are all here. Child that he was not contacted previously about any mediation maintenance is a crucial part of fighting child poverty and was not involved with HSSF, and his record of and making children feel not only financially supported, paying monthly on time for more than 10 years was not but supported by both parents, and that is important taken into account. for their well-being. The Government are continually As a result, my constituent was assessed as having to telling us they are putting families at the forefront of pay £236.71. Previously, he was paying £250; now, he their policy, and I hope they are doing everything they has to pay £283.99 because of the 20% fee. There must can to make their proposals a success. 217WH Separated Families Initiative21 OCTOBER 2014 Separated Families Initiative 218WH

3.16 pm simple, measurable way to test their success and compare them would be to assess whether something, at least, is Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab): It is a being paid towards the cost of raising children by the pleasure to serve in the debate under your chairmanship, parent who is not the one with care. Hon. Members Mr Streeter. Unlike the Minister—it is good to see her have acknowledged that ensuring the flow of maintenance in her place—I am not moonlighting. I am a former to separated families is one of the best forms of support director of the National Council for One Parent Families, that can be established. The hon. Member for Strangford which has since merged with Gingerbread, so this is (Jim Shannon) was right to highlight the pressures put part of my brief. I join my hon. Friend the Member for on family relationships by poverty. It is right that the Edinburgh East (Sheila Gilmore) in thanking Gingerbread arrangements that we are discussing should be aimed at for the helpful briefing it has given many of us in reducing that poverty. preparation for the debate. NatCen Social Research and Gingerbread say that I welcome the debate, and I congratulate my hon. regular child maintenance can lift one in five one-parent Friend, who raises an important issue in relation to the families out of poverty. Those families are at a particularly separation of parents and the financial arrangements high risk of poverty, and escaping poverty is the route that follow separation. The issue is perhaps too little in to a host of other improved socio-economic outcomes the public eye these days, which is in stark contrast to for families and their children. However, although it is the 1990s, when child support issues dominated MPs’ early days, the introduction of application fees this postbags. I fear that the reason is not that the difficulties June, under the new scheme, seems already to be having we saw in earlier years between parents have gone away, an effect. In May, before they were introduced, there but that too many parents have given up hope of ever were 9,700 fresh applications to the scheme, but by seeing any maintenance at all. August the number of fresh applications had dropped I recognise that there were considerable difficulties by 38% to 6,000. The Government expected a drop of with the legacy 1993 and 2003 schemes, and I strongly 12%, with 250,000 fewer cases in the statutory scheme recognise the need for reform. I also acknowledge that by 2018-19; so the rapid fall-off in new cases seems to the new 2012 scheme is being introduced carefully by a be well out of line. stable and respected team in the DWP—there are lessons there for other DWP projects. However, I have long Meanwhile, the number of parents contacting the been concerned about the overall objectives of the 2012 Options service who say that they would consider a scheme. I cannot help feeling that the overarching objective voluntary arrangement is also falling. According to a is to get as many parents as possible out of the statutory recent report by the Public Accounts Committee, the scheme and into voluntary arrangements to bring in fee number who say they are considering one is down from income for the Government—according to a written 5,540 in August last year, to 3,590 in March 2014. answer from 10 December last year to Lord Kirkwood Ministers responded that the phenomenon would be of Kirkhope, the income is estimated to reach approximately temporary, and that it resulted from the fact that people £1.2 billion by 2022-23—and to cut costs. While it may are now for the first time being required to go through be argued that voluntary arrangements between parents, the Options gateway. However, the two sets of statistics, freely and equally entered into by them, will often showing a decline both in new applications and in the produce the best outcomes, the new scheme means that number who think that they will make a family many more parents will not choose those arrangements arrangement, are clearly cause for concern. The unavoidable but will, effectively, be coerced into them. The jury is implication must be that some families—perhaps many— out on what that will mean in practice for their success. will end up with no arrangement at all. That is a worrying prospect. What is more, as has been pointed Of course, the overarching objective of the new scheme out this afternoon, the early statistics cannot yet tell us should be to get maintenance flowing for the benefit of much about parents who intend to make a family children. Yet neither the Government’s express intentions, arrangement and try to do so, but find that they cannot, nor the monitoring data that we have been able to get, or that they cannot sustain it. Will those parents attempt nor the help and support for separated families initiative to go on to the statutory scheme, or will they give up at described by my hon. Friends, have focused, as far as I that point? can see, on that specific goal. Yesterday I received a written answer from the Minister for Pensions, who said We will shortly be able to get more information. The he could not tell me, with respect to new applications to Pensions Minister told me in a written answer on 14 October the scheme, what change there had been in the proportion that the Government intend of children receiving maintenance. “to publish the results of the Child Maintenance Options survey As my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh East by the end of the year.” said, the DWP’s early iterations of the purpose of the I welcome that. The survey is carried out quarterly by HSSF innovation fund gave two key objectives: increasing the Options service and it goes back to callers who the number of children who benefit from child maintenance telephoned the service in the previous six months or so, arrangements, by reducing conflict and improving to find out what child maintenance arrangements they collaboration between separated and separating parents; made, and whether they in fact receive any maintenance. and testing a wider range of interventions to understand It has its limitations, but it will at least offer some what is effective in encouraging such collaboration and measure of what callers actually did about child reducing such conflict. However, in later iterations, the maintenance after their call. object of increasing the number of children to benefit Perhaps I can push the Minister for a little more from the arrangements has disappeared. information. Is it the intention to publish the Options I can understand that the 17 HSSF innovation pilots quarterly surveys of caller outcomes on a continuing differ greatly with respect to the groups that they deal basis, rather than as a one-off? What continuing tracking with and the approach that they take; but surely a of parents will there be, with respect to their arrangements 219WH Separated Families Initiative21 OCTOBER 2014 Separated Families Initiative 220WH

[Kate Green] There are questions about the impact of the kitemark. It is welcome, but we must know how widely it is used or and the flow of maintenance after the first six months? recognised, and what improvements in service it has If we are serious about improving outcomes for children, helped to bring about. I understand that 35 organisations we need to know not just what families agree or do at have been awarded the kitemark, but there is little first, but what maintenance actually flows and continues evidence that parents are aware of its significance and to be paid regularly. When exactly does the Minister little effort has been made to communicate that to them. expect the Government to publish the first results? The innovation fund that the Government have set On the question of the pilots, I recognise that the aside has been underspent. With little time left to complete Government want parents to reach their own arrangements the pilots, it would be useful if the Minister could wherever possible, and in the past Ministers have said explain why, and whether they intend to get the rest of that 51% of parents with care and 74% of non-resident the money out of the door before e-pilots are due to parents said they would make a family arrangement if conclude and to be evaluated in spring 2015. Meanwhile, they had the help and support of an expert and impartial very little information has been published about parents’ adviser. I assume that that is, in part, exactly what the participation in the 17 projects financed under the HSSF initiatives are intended to provide. However, we innovation fund, nor have details been made public of must also remember the figures given to Members by the evaluation process to assess what works in assisting Gingerbread and Families Need Fathers, which have parents to collaborate. Will the Minister say more about been mentioned this afternoon: 13% of parents with that? Who will carry out the evaluation and what will be care and 14% of non-resident parents say that their the criteria for success? relationship with the other parent is not at all friendly; Most disturbingly—colleagues highlighted this—no and 42% of parents with care and 41% of non-resident commitments have been given to scale up the lessons parents say they have no contact with the other parent learned from these projects of what works and can be at all. It would take a heroic effort for those parents to implemented on the scale necessary throughout the make private arrangements, and I fear that the HSSF country, yet we are now heading into the period when will fall well short of what will be required. not only new applications but thousands of case closures from the legacy systems will be coming into the new In cases where there is no contact at all, or where scheme. In truth, the HSSF initiative is way too limited there is considerable hostility between the parents, it an offer for the almost 2 million parents who will be will be particularly difficult and challenging to reach steered towards making their own child maintenance private arrangements, and will need specialist and specific arrangements over the next three years. support. Yet most of the pilots appear to have been quite generic. As my hon. Friend the Member for Pamela Nash: On the limited offer from HSSF, does Edinburgh East pointed out, only the most recent, quite my hon. Friend share my concern about couples who small-scale pilots have focused on those whose relationships have been separated for a long time? It seems that many might be seen as the most intractable, or those who have of the pilots are aimed at those who are separating been separated for a long time. My hon. Friend also imminently or have done so recently. Figures from the pointed out other difficulties with and deficiencies in Department for Work and Pensions have shown that the pilots. Some began late. We should bear in mind 70% of couples who are using child support allowance that they are short term, so a late start has a significant have been separated for more than five years. bearing on their impact. Some are offered by only a small number of organisations. Those are, as my hon. Friend said, highly respected, but none the less with Kate Green: I share my hon. Friend’s concern and I only a small number of charities and other bodies find it puzzling that it was so late in the organisation of engaged in the pilots, there must be some concerns the pilots that we began to see efforts to address that about coverage. As she highlighted, use of the Sorting specific and challenging group of separated parents. It out Separation online application has been at a level is hard to imagine how people would be able to make a well below what Ministers expected; just 9,132 unique private arrangement easily with someone with whom users had clicked through to a signposting action by they have had no contact or only hostile contact for a January this year, whereas the Government said that long time. I am puzzled at the lack of attention, given there would be 260,000 users in year one. the effort that has been put in to, for example, planning the transfer of the legacy cases. It would be helpful if As my hon. Friend the Member for Makerfield (Yvonne the Minister could say whether the Government intend Fovargue) pointed out, there were plans to strengthen to offer more support or different support to couples co-ordination of local face-to-face services by identifying who have had a long period of separation and little or and utilising touch points that parents have contact no contact with each other. with, providing information and links, appointing regional Funding for the HSSF pilots ends in March 2015, co-ordinators to develop regional networks of contacts, whereas the CSA legacy cases closure programme runs recruiting and training advocates to promote collaborative between 2014-15 to 2017-18. Will the Minister say parenting across delivery organisations and promoting whether there are any plans to extend HSSF funding to quality mark use, but those pilots have been dropped cover the period of CSA case closure? Can she tell us from the scheme. It is not clear why, especially when we now what financial resources will be made available think of those parents with more difficult or long-standing post-March 2015 to support the HSSF initiative? What separations who may need highly skilled and longer funding plans, if any, are in place to implement the interventions that that local face-to-face support could lessons learned from the 17 HSSF innovation fund best provide. Perhaps the Minister will explain the pilots on a wider scale when they have been evaluated? rationale for dropping that initiative. Without decent answers to these questions, we cannot 221WH Separated Families Initiative21 OCTOBER 2014 Separated Families Initiative 222WH avoid the conclusion that the HSSF initiative, with its reality is that too many people are affected by separation pathetic budget of £20 million over three years, has and, too often, it is the children who suffer the consequences. been intended only as window dressing for the scheme. In Britain today, there are 2.5 million separated families, In scaling up to meet the level of real need, those and one in three children live in households in which 17 projects come nowhere close. How can the Government their mother or father no longer lives at home. As my claim to be serious about the HSSF programme when hon. Friend the Member for East Worthing and Shoreham the £10 million awarded to 17 projects is expected to (Tim Loughton) said, the cost of family breakdown is help at best only around 24,000 families face to face £48 billion, and he spoke about parental alienation; plus around 270,000 online while around 300,000 couples what are we going to do there, too? separate every year, and around 1 million CSA cases This Government believe passionately in strong families face closure over the next three years? If the Government who can provide the stability that is vital to enable are to succeed in reducing use of the statutory maintenance children to thrive. The family environment provides the service and at the same time enable more parents to foundation for raising a child, and we are committed to collaborate in fixing and paying their own child supporting safe and loving family environments. When maintenance, the success of the HSSF initiative is parents’ relationships break down, we want to help fundamental. Today’s debate raises big questions about parents to work together more effectively, so it is important whether it is up to the task. to reduce levels of conflict after a separation and to minimise the negative impacts on the children. That is 3.35 pm key. As I think we have all agreed today, this is about moving the child to the centre of what we are doing and The Minister for Employment (Esther McVey): It is a focusing on their needs. pleasure, Mr Streeter, to serve under your chairmanship. My right hon. Friend the Minister for Pensions could We do not need to increase conflict; we want to not be here today, but I am happy to respond as best I minimise that as best we can. Where we can help people can, and if I do not have the full information, I will to have a more conducive family environment, that has write to hon. Members individually. I thank the hon. to be key, because conflict between parents puts children Member for Edinburgh East (Sheila Gilmore) for securing at a greater risk of anxiety, depression and antisocial this important debate. As a former family lawyer, she behaviour, but when children continue to have positive takes a close interest in the matter. I welcome the relationships with both parents, they are more likely to opportunity to talk about the support that the Government do better at school, stay out of trouble, have higher are putting in place for separated families, including self-esteem and develop healthier relationships as an through our child maintenance system. adult. That was part of the “Impact of Family Breakdown on Children’s Well-Being”evidence review, so that is the Before I explain what we are doing and what we are context in which we have to view the changes. How do putting in place, it is important to look at the present we support those young children going forward? How system—the Child Support Agency. We may view it do we do the best for them? with rose-coloured spectacles but, as many hon. Members have pointed out, how many people have come to our That is why we have invested some £14 million in the surgeries complaining that it does not work and has not Help and Support for Separated Families initiative, been helpful? How many people have said they have which has various parts to it: the Sorting out Separation never seen the money they hoped they would receive? online information tool; the HSSF mark; telephony That system has not functioned since it was put in training to promote parental collaboration; and the place; only about half of parents receive child maintenance, innovation fund. On the Sorting out Separation service, and we remember the significant IT failings at the we have looked at how many people are using that and beginning. going on to the website. Some 205,000 visitors have accessed it since it was launched, 120,000 of those being The system is expensive to run, costing almost unique visitors. That is close to what we had hoped for, £500 million; it awards about £1 billion. It has complex and not to the numbers mentioned by the hon. Member calculation rules and a slow assessment process. We for Edinburgh East. must take that on board when talking about it. On top of that, it never really put the child at the centre, nor did it resolve conflict. Kate Green: I recognise the overall figure that the Minister gave for the number of visitors to the site, but Sheila Gilmore: Was the system not set up because the point that my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh the preceding arrangements, which were a mixture of East (Sheila Gilmore) and Iwere making was about the people trying to make their own arrangements and the number of people who then click through to a signposting courts intervening, also had severe failures? This is a element of the site. I wonder whether the figures that complex subject that requires a lot of care and attention. the Minister is quoting are actually about those people, We should not necessarily think that the problem lies in because clearly, merely visiting is not about taking having a statutory system, although that seems to be the action, or even thinking about taking action, beyond Government’s view. the initial turning-up.

Esther McVey: No, we have to look at what has Esther McVey: I have spoken to people who use the worked throughout this journey, so that we can use site, and I have been on the site myself. There is a lot of whatever worked with the CSA and on the ground with information that people can get from it, and there are families. We must go into the process knowing that, names and links to the various organisations that they without a shadow of doubt, it is complex. This is about might want to go to. It is not a site where people would families, emotions and relationships that are not working, do everything at once. They would jot the names down, but what are we trying to do? We all agree that the sad follow up what they want to, and speak to friends and 223WH Separated Families Initiative21 OCTOBER 2014 Separated Families Initiative 224WH

[Esther McVey] closely with them through regular forums to develop a promotion strategy that can take into account the pivotal to other people who would signpost them to the relevant role that they play in targeting properly the promotion places. What I am explaining is that people do not need activity, in explaining to parents what the mark stands to link through; they could get all the information just for and what to look out for, and in parents knowing by going through the site. However, the actual linking what they are getting when they see that mark. through is nearly double what the hon. Member for The HSSF telephony training is designed to make Edinburgh East said; it is over 9,000. I think we need to sure that separated parents get consistent information, look at this in the round. Could people get all the messaging and onward support. It is not a network in information they want? Could they go back to Google the traditional sense of one phone line supported by and put in the names that they got from that website? one piece of infrastructure, but over 300 agents have Yes, they could. There are different things that people received the tailored training, meaning that the benefits can go to via that website. of collaboration can be promoted to parents, regardless of which of the partner organisations’ helplines parents Sheila Gilmore: Although I would acknowledge that choose to use. people might want to go back and do it later, one test of The bulk of the HSSF investment—some £10 million—is a good website—anybody who is designing one or using being spent on the innovation fund to support separated one will look at this—is whether it is click-through, and families, with the aim of helping parents who are going how many people do that. Opening up the website up is through separation to work together to resolve that not sufficient. Why would we think, “It is all right; we conflict. The 17 projects have collectively engaged with expect people to write it all down, and then type it all 53,500 parents up to September 2014. The hon. Member in,” when it would be just as quick to go through and for Airdrie and Shotts (Pamela Nash) asked whether we get that information? Surely the Minister has to look at were reaching out to those who have been separated that and say, “This may be failing.” longest, who might have the most trying of relationships, and yes, indeed, that is what we are trying to do. We Esther McVey: As I said, I have talked to people I have gone for really innovative projects, looking for know who have used the site, and I have used it myself. greater engagement. Those are the kinds of people The number of click-throughs is nearly double what has whom we will look to help. The hon. Lady also asked been claimed. Equally, it is a usable site in its current about a specific case. I am happy to get my officials to form, and people can get all the information that they look at that case, see what is happening, and see how we want from it, then and there. People might reflect and, can resolve that issue. later on, type all the information into a Google search, Hon. Members will know that one of the projects, the so I do not necessarily follow the logic that everybody family decision making service, funds three key Scotland- straight away would have to click through. I have done based organisations to work much more closely together research among people who have used it, and they did to enable parents to get help on the wide range of issues not feel that they needed to do it that way. We are that they face during separation. For example, a father measuring all those who have accessed the site, unique recently called Children 1st in Scotland for help. He visitors and click-throughs. wanted to know about his rights, and to find out what We have already begun work on improvements and he should do with regards to arranging contact with his enhancements to the site. One of those, which my right son. Children 1st advised him of the family decision hon. Friend the Minister for Pensions talked about, was making service and asked if he wished for further optimising the service online, making it easier for people advice. The father agreed that he did, and he was to reach out and go to that website. Search engine transferred to the Scottish Child Law Centre, after optimisation also means that users can find the relevant which the organisations worked together to provide the pages without necessarily going via the homepage. More help that he needed on all the issues that he faced. people are coming to Sorting out Separation, clicking This is what we are trying to do—to get all the beyond the homepage and spending more time on specific agencies working together to best provide the support pages. If they are spending more time on specific pages, that is needed. In these instances, the information that that shows that the information has reached out and is we are getting back is that the system has helped. speaking to them, and that they are taking more time to People have managed to follow a clear process and have read what is on the page. got the result that they needed. This method of transfer ensured that the father I referred to did not need to There are now over 350 HSSF mark holders; the repeat himself, and that all the elements of the situation overwhelming majority of those have been awarded the were dealt with through one joined-up service. As a mark via our five umbrella organisations, which is a real result, the father said that he left feeling clear about his indication that the appetite for the mark remains high, options and very confident about setting up an amicable, and we continue to receive applications from organisations family-based parenting arrangement that covered finance that wish to be assessed. It is particularly reassuring to and his contact arrangements with his son. Those are see the diversity of organisations keen to carry the the outcomes that we want to pursue and obtain. We mark, and the range of excellent support and expertise want people to be able to follow the path that that for families. I want to pay tribute to all the organisations family followed, although we know that everyone’s that do valuable work to support families at what can circumstances are different. be, as we all know, a very distressing time. As part of these interventions, most projects try to On the question of promotion, mark holders have work with parents to establish parenting arrangements, told us that they are best placed to promote the mark to which include child maintenance. Measuring the success their clients. It is encouraging that these organisations of the projects in helping parents to establish those want to support the HSSF initiative, and we are working types of arrangements will form part of the evaluation. 225WH Separated Families Initiative21 OCTOBER 2014 Separated Families Initiative 226WH

Evaluation will be crucial to determining the learning Esther McVey: As I said, we will provide further from the projects, and we are in the process of procuring information on that, and hon. Members will have that an external evaluator to ensure that there is an independent by the end of the year. assessment of the projects. The independent evaluator A point was raised about the 38% drop in applications. will assess the performance of each project separately, Of course we felt that there would be a drop, but not and those results will be published after the projects that great. However, as the application fees have been in close and sufficient time has passed to analyse and effect for less than four months, it would be imprudent assess performance. We do, however, have some good to draw any meaningful conclusions from the early news stories about what has happened so far to help data—the data that we have so far. The Department will families. continue to monitor the rates of application to the 2012 scheme, but the correct time frame in which to consider Sheila Gilmore: The Minister appears to be telling us the effects of the reforms will be in the 30-month review. that the process of finding an evaluator is still ongoing. That is what we have to continue to do. The overall Can she say how close that is to being done? We are objectives and aims were set out in our strategy, in the virtually in November, and many of the projects are due bids. That is what we are looking for. Of course the to finish at the end of March next year; that is a very projects will be evaluated and monitored. As I said, we short time in which to carry out an evaluation, and it is are hoping to bring that information to the House by very unusual to be evaluating so late in the process, not the end of the year. having set up the arrangement in advance. Is it true that part of the reason for the hold-up was the Department In addition to the help and support for separated for Work and Pensions having concerns about data families, it will be helpful to touch on the support protection? Will it be possible to scale up the projects in available as part of our reforms to child maintenance. any sensible way soon after March next year? We know that after a relationship breakdown, most parents still want what is best for their children. It is Esther McVey: I can tell the hon. Lady that we will increasingly the norm for parents to be doing what is provide further details as part of our overall evaluation right by their children and contributing to the children’s strategy, which we expect to publish by the end of this upbringing, even if they do not live with them any year. more. Central to our reforms of the child maintenance I was giving details of what was working, what we system is our belief that turning to the statutory service know is happening and various innovative projects. For need not be the default position for all families. We do example, a Birmingham project run by Malachi recently not believe that Government intervention in setting up worked very closely with both the mother and the father a child maintenance arrangement is either necessary or of a boy who had been excluded from school because of beneficial in the majority of cases. It not only puts an bad behaviour, and who had not seen his father in three unnecessary barrier between parents, but can increase years. Now, following the intervention, the father spends conflict and reduce the incentive for them to work time with his son regularly and contributes financially together. to the child’s household, and the child’s teacher has confirmed that his behaviour at school has dramatically Sheila Gilmore: I am grateful to the Minister for improved. That is what we want to happen. Those are reiterating the Government’s position, which is what we the outcomes that we want. have heard ever since the proposals were put into the Of course this is about finances; we know that. The Bill that became the Welfare Reform Act 2012. The CSA was not necessarily providing that. We need to aims are very clear. The issue is: is that happening? Is it work with families and the child’s surroundings more working? Is the kind of support and advice that has generally, and get the father seeing the son. We need the been set up scalable? Are there any plans to fund this son not to be excluded from school and to have better beyond next March? attendance, which will allow him a better education and support him later in life. It is right that a key strategy and raison d’être of this Government is fighting child Esther McVey: I will come to those points, but I poverty, and fighting poverty full stop. How do we go believe that it is important that we put in context what about that? It is through education. It is about getting we are doing, who we believe should be sorting out the people into work. It is about supporting the family. All arrangements and how best we can help these families—the these things have to be key, and not just now, for those mum and the dad—to put the arrangements in place. parents who have made their decision. They have brought That is why we believe that family-based child maintenance a child into the world; how do we as a society protect arrangements are often the best option, and we want to that child? That is the only way to prevent poverty. encourage and support families to achieve those. We also recognise that separated parents will need a service Kate Green: The Minister is being rather ambitious if that helps them to consider all their options in the light she thinks that the HSSF projects will provide all those of the introduction of charging for the statutory child very laudable outcomes in and of themselves. The anecdotes maintenance system and the process to close Child Support are very helpful and give us a flavour of the projects Agency cases, so, since November, the child maintenance that are being conducted, but can she assure us that the options service has also become the gateway to the evaluation will go well beyond anecdote? We want to be statutory child maintenance service. The gateway is able to look at data and trends. In particular, Opposition flexible and personalised to each individual. It uses the Members want to see the number of parents who are same empathetic approach and is designed to ensure receiving maintenance, the amount that they are receiving, that parents can consider the full range of options, the sustainability of that maintenance and the proportion including making family-based child maintenance of children who are benefiting from it. arrangements. 227WH Separated Families Initiative 21 OCTOBER 2014 228WH

[Esther McVey] Domestic Energy Efficiency Where appropriate, the child maintenance options service promotes the benefits of making a family-based 4pm arrangement with parents, helps them to overcome the Graham Jones (Hyndburn) (Lab): I believe this is the barriers that they face to working together, and provides first time I have served under your chairmanship, them with the tools to make effective arrangements. Mr Streeter, in what I hope will be a constructive The service also continues to signpost to other specialist debate. I want to focus on the effect of the Government’s sources of support. changes to the energy companies obligation on domestic The Government are committed to helping and energy efficiency and the local schemes to improve supporting the family, which is why the HSSF initiative efficiency in my area. I welcome the opportunity to and child maintenance reforms are a key part of our discuss those things with the Minister. overall social justice strategy. As part of that, we are When the ECO was devised, the architects of the bringing relationship support policy into one Department, scheme aimed to improve the energy efficiency of dwellings with the DWP investing £30 million to deliver successfully exactly like those in Haslingden and Hyndburn. However, marriage preparation, couples counselling and relationship since the last time I spoke in the House on the subject, education. the help provided for home energy efficiency has been We will take forward recommendations from the significantly reduced. In terms of energy efficiency, family stability review. We will introduce perinatal pilots Hyndburn has some of the poorest-quality housing to provide information to expectant couples about the stock in the country, with 45.1% of all dwellings built impact that having a baby will have on their relationship, before 1919, which is well above the English average of as well as strategies on how to address conflict. All of 23.6%. Terraced properties of that age tend to have that is part of a journey—having a family, and hard-to-treat cavities. It is estimated that 90% of such understanding those extra pressures and what will happen stock has a cavity of some sort that can be insulated, in a way that maintains family stability. The hope is that but doing so is costly and requires a subsidy. Because of parents will not get to the point at which they are the age of the stock in Hyndburn, 50.2% of category 1 looking to separate and have to deal with the fallout hazard properties are so designated because of excess from that. All this has to be part of an ongoing strategy. cold, and for category 2 hazard properties the figure is a We have also announced our plans for local family staggering 78.5%. The housing health and safety rating offer trials— system states: “If the score produces a Category 1 hazard, for example if Mr Gary Streeter (in the Chair): Order. Our time is there is a high risk of serious health implications”— done. We must move on to the next debate. Will colleagues such as damp— leaving the Chamber please do so quietly? “from exposure to cold then the Authority have a duty to take action. If there is a Category 2 hazard, for example there is risk that exposure to cold may have an adverse affect on health, the Authority may take action.” Hyndburn borough council therefore has a duty to take action on properties where excess cold is a category 1 hazard, but such is the scale of the problem that that legal duty cannot simply be a matter for a small district council. My constituents face having to live in homes that were designed a century ago, with no thought for thermal efficiency. Hyndburn borough council undertook a comprehensive housing condition survey in 2009, which noted that the rate of thermal comfort failures was 24.5%, compared with an English average of 18.3%. My constituents, therefore, are the very people to whom the ECO can offer most, but Hyndburn borough council’s warm homes energy company obligation scheme has come under threat before it has even begun in earnest. Moreover, the businesses in the green economy in my constituency that were innovating and creating jobs as a result of the ECO are now concerned about their futures. Indeed, 49 of the 149 schemes nationally have been cancelled. As I have said, nine out of 10 stone terraced properties of the sort that are prevalent in Hyndburn have hard-to-treat cavities that would benefit from the ECO. For that reason, the ECO presented a particularly welcome opportunity to my constituents and to local councils across east Lancashire to tackle insulation, fuel poverty and the UK’s climate change obligations. The most recent Government statistics state that 5,088 households in my constituency are living in fuel poverty, which 229WH Domestic Energy Efficiency21 OCTOBER 2014 Domestic Energy Efficiency 230WH equates to some 13.1% of homes. On the alternative constituents would be entitled to and eligible for boiler measure, which is based on the number of households replacement under the affordable warmth element of forced to spend more than 10% of their household the ECO. income on energy, there are 6,712 such households. The fact that 17.3% of households struggle to heat their homes is a tragedy, and it comes as no surprise that the Graham Jones: Yes, they would, but the terraced poor live in the older terraced stock. There is a direct properties in my constituency seep heat. We need to link between the age and condition of the housing stock look at energy conservation; it is not enough simply to and the high levels of fuel poverty in my constituency. lag the loft. There is no point in having a new boiler without also implementing a range of measures to I raised that issue in the Energy Bill Committee in capture the heat that it generates. If we continue to June 2011, and the then Minister, the right hon. Member allow heat to flow out of stone terraced properties with for Bexhill and Battle (Gregory Barker), told me that semi-solid walls, we do a disservice to those properties. the ECO would They will remain energy-inefficient. I accept that there “play a huge part with regard to harder-to-treat properties.”––[Official are some modest improvements that can be made, but Report, Energy Public Bill Committee, 14 June 2011; c. 199.] the main beneficiaries of insulation and energy efficiency My question to the new Minister is simply this: what improvements will be householders who live in properties has happened to that aspiration? Is it still an aspiration, with hard-to-treat cavities. or was it only ever an aspiration? My constituents Another point that has seemingly been absent from would be right to feel let down by the Government’s the debate on the changes is that the energy companies’ domestic energy efficiency policies. revenue streams are protected by inefficient, uninsulated As I have indicated, my constituency has an incredibly houses. Rather than reducing the use of gas through high number of hard-to-treat properties. Plenty are in greater energy efficiency, the energy companies have a the private rented sector, where there are excessive problems, perverse disincentive to support energy efficiency because and many are owner occupied. Thanks to the roll-back they are making profits from selling so much gas to my of the ECO, my constituents who are in most need will constituents. miss out. When that is coupled with the Government’s There is concern in the cavity wall insulation industry record on place-based housing regeneration, the outlook about the effects of the changes. Isothane, a company in is depressing. my constituency that produces cavity wall insulation, Even more galling is that despite the Prime Minister’s stated to me recently that the cavity wall industry is claim that cutting levies would save consumers £50 on effectively “at a standstill” due to the changes. That was their energy bills, four of the big six energy companies after the company had prepared itself for increased refused to pass on the full £50 reduction to customers demand under the ECO. The carpet was pulled from on fixed-price deals. Not only did those customers not under the company after it had been encouraged to be receive insulation, but they did not receive that discount, part of the green revolution. Job losses across the lamentable though it is in comparison with the savings industry, which has a strong base in the north-west, that would result from energy efficiency measures. In make for sad reading. January this year, the former Minister, the right hon. Twelve jobs have been lost at Isothane Ltd in Accrington Member for Bexhill and Battle, said that for the energy in my constituency, which I have been told may have a companies not to pass on the full savings to consumers further impact, with job losses in Dukinfield in Manchester. “would not be acceptable”. However, no action has There have been job cuts at Viscount Insulation in been taken to ensure that the 3.8 million people on Blackburn and Castleford. There have been 85 job fixed-price deals do not miss out on that saving. losses at Home Insulation Services in Preston, and 600 In response to the consultation on the future of the jobs went this summer at Domestic & General Insulation ECO, the Government openly stated that energy companies as a direct result of the Government’s policy changes. were Many smaller companies have also laid off workers “likely now to be in a position to make greater savings than they whom they had previously hired after the Government had originally projected in December”. talked up the demand that would be created by the When the Government make no effort to recoup those ECO and green deal schemes. I am afraid those job savings for consumers, the result is more money for the losses will not be the last. The majority of people in the energy companies. In attempting to kick the long-term UK would rather know that the levies are supporting a problems of the cost of energy, market failure and growing green economy and creating long-term financial domestic energy efficiency into the long grass, the and environmental savings, rather than simply being Government have effectively cut the energy companies handed back to the energy companies without cast-iron some slack, with no noticeable reduction in prices for guarantees that they will be passed on fully and without millions of people and at the cost of thousands of exception. much-needed domestic energy efficiency projects, such as those in my constituency. Guy Opperman: Before the hon. Gentleman concludes his speech, I will give him a slightly contrary view. In my Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con): I apologise for missing constituency in Northumberland, which has similar the first two minutes of the hon. Gentleman’s argument, properties—old stone buildings—the expansion of the and I congratulate him on securing this important energy sector is something that I welcome and applaud. debate during energy week. Although great progress is Organisations such as the Centre for Green Energy and being made, I accept that there are gaps that the the multitude of biomass and other green and diversification Government need to address. The hon. Gentleman is suppliers are showing that there is a future for that type talking about cavity wall insulation, but surely his of energy. 231WH Domestic Energy Efficiency21 OCTOBER 2014 Domestic Energy Efficiency 232WH

Graham Jones: I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s homes as reasonably practicable achieve a minimum comment, but he cannot deny that job losses have energy efficiency standard of band C by 2030. We have occurred due to the changes. Changes bring uncertainty, also consulted to help us to prepare for a new fuel and I am sure we all agree that there should be less poverty strategy. change and more consistency, because that will lead to more jobs in the sector. If we chop and change our Graham Jones: I welcome the Minister’s comments, energy efficiency policy, we will find that companies are but I asked a fundamental question. How does she reticent about entering the market because they are anticipate that constituencies such as mine in Hyndburn, unsure about the future. Certainty is the bedrock of which have a considerable mass of such fuel-poor people business, as I am sure he would agree. and hard-to-treat and uninsulated properties, will be I will conclude by asking the Minister a number of addressed in the next five and a half years? questions. Does she recognise the job losses that have directly resulted from rolling back the ECO? How many Amber Rudd: I appreciate that the hon. Gentleman jobs does she estimate have been lost nationally? What wants me to get straight to the point and address his key does she see for the future of this important industry? questions. I have a few minutes, and I would like an The Government predicted that there would be 35,000 opportunity to set out what the Government are doing. people working in the sector by 2015-16. Does she still We recognise that improving domestic energy efficiency seriously expect that to happen? What future plans does helps consumers to control energy bills, thereby reducing she have for areas with a prevalence of hard-to-treat fuel poverty.Of course, it also contributes to our challenging walls and cavities, such as mine in Haslingden and carbon reduction target, which is, by 2050, to reduce Hyndburn, and clearly those in Hexham, which will no greenhouse gas emissions to at least 80% below 1990 levels. longer be economical under the changes to the ECO To drive up domestic energy efficiency, we have put in scheme? It seems obvious to many people that hard-to-treat, place a long-term programme that reflects fundamental cold and damp properties are in most need. Why has underlying challenges. Much of the easy energy-efficiency that not been reflected and prioritised in Government work has been done. Nearly all homes have at least policy? some loft insulation, although many could benefit from Finally, has the Minister investigated where the remaining a top-up, and most of the easiest cavity walls have been ECO money is being spent? The green deal home filled. We need to move away from a culture of unsustainable improvement fund opened in June and shut five or six grant dependency to a different, market-based approach. weeks later in mid-July. Where has that money been Our long-term aim is for consumers to be motivated to spent? My constituents did not get an opportunity to improve their homes and to be ready to meet some of apply for that money, and it included measures such as the costs, with real, effective help for the most vulnerable. solid wall insulation. What happened to that money, That is good for all bill payers, as subsidy will go where and where was it spent? What proportion of that fund, it can have the most effect; and it is good for our the ECO and other schemes was spent on properties economy, as innovative businesses will enter the market that are most in need? and develop better, cheaper products.

4.14 pm Guy Opperman: In private meetings and in meetings with my constituents, I have spoken to the Minister The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Energy about oil companies having a 500-litre minimum limit and Climate Change (Amber Rudd): It is a great pleasure for delivering to people who are off-grid. If the Department to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Streeter. were to change that minimum delivery to a lower figure, This debate comes at the start of big energy saving it would have a massive impact on people who are week, a joint campaign between the Department of particularly fuel-poor and off-grid. Could she please Energy and Climate Change, Citizens Advice and the look at that and get back to me? Energy Saving Trust that will highlight the support available to help people keep warm this winter. It was Amber Rudd: I thank my hon. Friend for that comment. good to see so many parliamentary colleagues at yesterday’s He has raised the matter with me previously, and I will launch. During the last big energy saving week, 300,000 get back to him. consumers received help and advice through events, by phone or online. This year we and our partners want to I do not want to try the patience of the hon. Member make big energy saving week even bigger than last year. for Hyndburn, so let us move on to the ECO, which is the particular element of support that he has asked me The independent review of fuel poverty enabled us to address. We have made changes to the ECO, and the more fully to understand the problem and to measure vast majority of customers pay for the ECO as part of fuel poverty effectively. That has helped us to put in their energy bills. With bills rising, it was right to review place policies that can target assistance at those most in the impact of the policies on household costs and to need, which the hon. Member for Hyndburn (Graham ensure that the benefit of the ECO is directed where it Jones) spoke about earlier. We already have strong can make most impact. This much is clear: we have not policies working on the ground, such as the ECO, the reduced the element of the ECO aimed at helping warm home discount scheme and the big energy saving low-income and vulnerable households. Approximately network, but we recognise that the most vulnerable may two thirds of the ECO that is currently collected goes to still need extra help. the fuel-poor, which, overall, is the same amount as was To highlight the Government’s commitment to making previously set, despite the reductions. The hon. Gentleman a real and lasting difference on fuel poverty, we have talks about the Government cutting the energy companies tabled draft regulations to create a new fuel poverty some slack, but we have felt obliged to cut taxpayers target in law. We want to ensure that as many fuel-poor some slack. At the same time, we have ensured that the 233WH Domestic Energy Efficiency21 OCTOBER 2014 Domestic Energy Efficiency 234WH people who are most in fuel poverty, the vulnerable, are on how to ensure that the new green deal home still being given the assistance that was pledged. Dedicated improvement fund is correctly launched in order to get fuel poverty activity within the ECO stays at the original the maximum benefit for communities, particularly the level of investment of £540 million a year reaching most vulnerable communities, who have been suffering. 230,000 households, and we have extended activity on I hope that we can reassure the hon. Gentleman that the same scale to 2017. the green deal home improvement fund will be an We are also making the ECO easier and cheaper to additional source that his council can access to help the deliver, and we have extended the carbon saving community people who need help, particularly with solid wall insulation, part of the ECO to cover the bottom 25% of areas on as he said. I recommend that his council contact my the index of multiple deprivation, extending it to more Department to find out more about a previous fund households in low-income areas. That will not only help called the green deal communities fund. His council more hard-pressed families; crucially, for the first time, might be interested in finding out about its best practice. extending the obligation to the end of 2017 will give It had particular success in going street by street, door industry and other partners maximum certainty. The to door and working with community leaders to build hon. Gentleman discussed business’s need for certainty. trust among householders so they could use the fund. We have delivered that by extending the obligation to I wanted to take a few minutes to comment on the 2017. private rented sector; I am not sure whether the hon. Gentleman has a particular interest in that area. Graham Jones: I appreciate that the Minister is giving way on her time. I generously admit that the carbon Graham Jones indicated assent. savings target for individual households was reduced, rendering the scheme worthless in that it could not Amber Rudd: That is good. We want to support and actually be used, but how will the community target encourage landlords to make improvements to their have an impact on district councils such as mine? It was properties and empower tenants to request them. That essentially designed around local authorities, but small is why, on 22 July 2014, we launched our consultation district councils such as mine are cash-strapped, and on energy efficiency regulations for the private rented the shire does nothing. How can local district councils sector. As a result of our proposals, from April 2016, such as mine help community schemes meet the community private tenants will have a right to request consent for target? It is not happening. energy efficiency measures, which may not be unreasonably refused by the landlord. From April 2018, private rented Amber Rudd: I urge the hon. Gentleman’s council to properties will need to achieve a minimum energy efficiency consider what it can do within the current ECO standard before being let to tenants, except where certain arrangements, which as I said have been extended for exemptions apply. the next two years. Turning to the green deal home improvement fund, Graham Jones: I am grateful to the Minister; she is which I also urge his council to consider, he is absolutely being very helpful. I point out to her for the record—she right. The green deal home improvement fund opened may or may not wish to comment—that I sat on the in June and was closed at the end of July, such was the Energy Bill Committee in 2011 when that proposal was take-up. It was more popular than any of us had introduced. I voted against it, because I thought that expected. We had always said that the pot of money the dates should be brought forward to 2011 from 2018. available was limited and that once it was gone, it was For seven years, people in the private rented sector have gone, but we did not anticipate that demand would be had to suffer. The Government are not doing this today; so strong, and we have acknowledged that that was not it was in the 2011 Energy Bill. I wanted that to be a ideal for householders, industry or local authorities matter of public record. such as the hon. Gentleman’s, which might have promoted the scheme to residents. Amber Rudd: I think I can accept that as cautious However, the good news is that we have sourced support for the proposals, although they are less timely additional funds and will reopen the green deal home than the hon. Gentleman would like. He may rest improvement fund next month. We are working closely assured that my Department is committed to delivering with industry, local authority and other partners to get them, and we will use our best endeavours to do so. their views on how the first phase worked and their I point out that although the hon. Gentleman’s ideas on how we can improve the scheme. constituents may be able to access the green deal home improvement fund, green deal finance is also available Graham Jones: Can the Minister ensure that authorities and is now picking up. It is also an important element such as mine that are deprived according to the index of for the private rented sector, where the electricity bill multiple deprivation—our district council has challenges payer is normally the tenant, who contributes towards in trying to bid for the money quickly; they will inevitably the cost of improvements through savings on their be slow out of the blocks, because they do not have electricity bill. Tenants will benefit from a warm, healthier scale and size—are prioritised and given first dibs on home while landlords will gain improvements to their the fund? That would be helpful in meeting some of the property. The ECO and incentives announced as part of concerns that I have outlined. the autumn statement 2013 provide additional funding support for landlords to make improvements. Landlords Amber Rudd: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that took advantage of both the green deal cash back and suggestion. We are keen to get the green deal home home improvement funds, and nearly 115,000 households improvement fund absolutely right. I will take his suggestion in the private rented sector have benefited from the back to my officials. We are getting a lot of contributions ECO measures so far. 235WH Domestic Energy Efficiency 21 OCTOBER 2014 236WH

[Amber Rudd] BT Openreach

I point out to the hon. Gentleman that with the 4.27 pm arrival of smart meters, which are now being rolled out, constituents will hopefully be able to control their use Simon Hart (Carmarthen West and South of energy and heating more effectively and efficiently. Pembrokeshire) (Con): I hope I will get three minutes We are also making good progress on encouraging the extra, as we are starting ahead of the clock. take-up of local renewables. The number of installations, mainly of solar photovoltaic panels under the feed-in Mr Gary Streeter (in the Chair): You will. tariffs, now totals more than 590,000. The domestic renewable heat incentive was launched in March this Simon Hart: I applied for this debate about three year, and 10,000 homes are already being rewarded for months ago and rather forgot that I had made the switching to biomass, ground or air source heat pumps application. It only popped up in the system in the last and solar thermal technologies. 10 days, and quite a lot has changed since then. None the less, some of the fundamental points that I hope to I hope that the hon. Gentleman will appreciate and raise are as important now as they were then. agree that although he has certain frustrations that the ECO is not reaching some in his community, this First, to be positive, UK broadband roll-out—I will Department is leading many other initiatives to assist touch briefly on Wales, too—is a very positive story. A everybody, including his constituents, to have warmer significant number of businesses and households are homes for less. It is an ambitious long-term programme. benefiting from it, and the link between economic We are making progress and learning what works best. regeneration and good-quality broadband is not disputed. The scale of the funds that we have made available However, importantly, 9.5 million UK adults lack the shows our determination to improve homes, reduce bills basic skills required to get online, and more than half of and fuel poverty and meet our carbon reduction British businesses do not have an online presence to sell commitments. goods and services. That is an important underlying feature that the country and the coalition Government must address. I appreciate that responsibility is devolved in Wales; none the less, it depends on UK taxpayers to the tune of £250 million or thereabouts. I will touch on three things that are important to the UK Government, rather than the Welsh Government, as a consequence: first, the take-up of broadband once it is installed; secondly, the issue of isolated rural communities, which has been raised many times in this Chamber and elsewhere; and, thirdly, Openreach response to customer concerns. That final point is the one on which I suspect there has been significant improvement during the past few months, but there are still concerns across the country—not just in Wales—about it. On take-up, it is a worry to me that in Wales we are averaging about 17%; the figure went up a little bit to 19% in August in certain areas, but it has dropped back to 17% overall since then. Anglesey is doing rather better, at 25%. However, if we compare Wales with Cornwall, South Yorkshire and Northern Ireland, where the average take-up figure is nearly 30%, we appear to be underperforming. I have described the situation as being a bit like investing millions of pounds in High Speed 2, and then having no passengers using the service. To the tune of almost £490 each, UK taxpayers— including Welsh taxpayers—are creating this fantastic piece of infrastructure, yet use of it is not being properly taken up. We need to address that, for the reasons I gave earlier.

Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD): I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this debate. We used to have debates about the extent to which broadband could be rolled out in our rural communities; there were figures of 96% and 97%. However, like him I fear that the debate is now about take-up. Where does he think the responsibility to promote take-up lies? Should it be with our National Assembly Government, with the Minister’s Department or with BT? I ask because, as he said, one way or another we are not getting the message across, are we? 237WH BT Openreach21 OCTOBER 2014 BT Openreach 238WH

Simon Hart: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that business, and it is very difficult for them to do so if there intervention. It seems to me that once the infrastructure is no clear indication as to when they might reap the is in place, it is unclear who is responsible for persuading, benefits of this fantastic new resource. cajoling or seducing people into using it. It was mentioned to me this morning by employees of Openreach that Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con): There are take-up is reliant, to a great extent, on local authority two ways that Openreach can help, in relation to my enthusiasm and energy. However, that does not seem to hon. Friend’s first two points. The first way is through be a strategy; it seems to be just an aspiration. I would data. Openreach has a large amount of data on who is suggest—I would be interested to hear the Minister’s taking up broadband services, which at the moment it response to this point—that this is a UK-wide problem. does not release. It is really important that Openreach Broadband is a very expensive infrastructure project, so considers whether it can release more data. The second it is a UK Government responsibility to ensure that way is through this new concept called fibre to the node, everybody knows that the service has been upgraded, or which Openreach has held on to for some months now, whatever expression one wants to use, in their area, and and which we really need to get rolled out, because it is knows how to go about accessing it at a sensible and the key to accessing many of the very rural communities reasonable price. However, that does not appear to be that he and I represent. the case at the moment. Most MPs seem to have a fairly full postbag when it comes to broadband-related issues, Simon Hart: I am grateful, too, for that intervention. and yet the figures I have given show that a relatively I have to say that I had not heard that expression until small number of people are aware of, and therefore lunchtime today; I vaguely understood it when it was signing up to, the new provision. mentioned then, but now I completely understand it. The second issue I want to raise is isolated rural Coming from a rugby nation, however, I think that the communities. We always talk about the 4%—those people only thing I can do is pass the ball sharply to the left to who fall outside the 96% aspiration—and what the the Minister, because ultimately decisions about that future holds for them. My question to the Minister is concept are for the UK Government, or at least that this: what are the UK Government’s proposals as far as concept is an opportunity for the UK Government to those people are concerned? The Welsh Government deal with the problem that my hon. Friend the Member have already given an indication that there will be some for Lancaster and Fleetwood (Eric Ollerenshaw) and—I kind of mop-up scheme at the end of all this activity, have to say—plenty of other hon. Members have raised. which will possibly rely on wireless or satellite. However, I will illustrate the point about isolated rural communities. the time scale is unclear; the method of installation, if The Country Land and Business Association is just one that is the right word, is a little unclear; and it is of many organisations that have helpfully made certainly unclear what the cost would be to UK taxpayers. contributions to this debate, and it estimates that about 100,000 businesses with a combined turnover of up to Eric Ollerenshaw (Lancaster and Fleetwood) (Con): I £60 billion are affected by the lack of broadband, congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this debate. including many farmers, who of course have no option I wonder whether he is in the same position in Wales as these days but to submit many of their Department for I am in England; I am trying to get from BT a map that Environment, Food and Rural Affairs-related obligations shows clearly the 4% of people who are not in the and VAT returns online. It is an irony that in certain system, so that one can try to deal with the situation parts of my constituency farmers have to go to McDonald’s and ask why they are not in the system. The little bits of to access the free wi-fi there, in order to fulfil their legal information that we glean seem to indicate that there is obligations. I cannot believe the Government are no rationale in terms of isolated communities. I can cite enthusiastic about that reality. a place called Glasson Dock; BT tells me that it is not in the system, yet it is in no way isolated. In fact, it is a very Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab): First, I congratulate large community just on the outskirts of Lancaster. the hon. Gentleman on securing this debate. Will he note that when those farmers go to McDonald’s, which Simon Hart: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that often gets a very bad press, they can be reassured by the intervention. There are various online methods through fact that it has a very good supply chain, using British- which one can find out when one’s community is likely sourced beef and produce? to be connected, but of course there is an irony there, because part of the problem is that not all of these Simon Hart: I am casting an eye in the direction of communities have an online capability, thanks to the the Chair, who will very possibly rule me out of order; I problems that we are discussing, so it might not be as am almost surprised that he did not rule the hon. easy as it seems to gather that information. Gentleman’s intervention out of order. However, I agree In defence of Openreach, I must say that the situation with every word he said—I say that before I am admonished. is a little clearer than it was, and I can only urge my hon. Thirdly and finally, I will discuss the Openreach Friend to do what a lot of us seem to end up doing, response to customer concerns. I know that this is a which is pestering the company until such time as it says controversial area; that it is very easy for people such as what is going on, just to get us off its back. Nevertheless, MPs to come up with a long stream of examples that it seems to me that for reasons that are not entirely are probably the exception rather than the rule; and that clear—they may be competition reasons, or just technical we only ever hear of the things that go wrong, rather reasons—it is sometimes difficult to acquire the information than the many occasions on which things go right. that we need. There is a financial consequence to that, However, there is a pattern—it has improved, but there because companies need to know how, and indeed is none the less a pattern—among constituents of mine whether, they can invest in growing and sustaining their that suggests Openreach has some way to go to reassure 239WH BT Openreach21 OCTOBER 2014 BT Openreach 240WH

[Simon Hart] us”, and all that nonsense. People want action, and they want it quickly, not appeasement; yet the system seems its customers that it has sorted the problem of addressing to be geared against that. customer concerns, and that it is their servant, rather To ensure greater openness in its provision of services, than their master. BT has added features to the “Expect Openreach” site, I will highlight two examples of customer concerns, including a local network status checker to show and I hope that the House will indulge me while I read information about incidents such as cable breaks, weather- from my notes. The first example is of three customers related information and so on. However, the problem on the same line who were waiting for work to be done, with isolated rural areas is that, with a lack of mobile including work to replace a repeatedly broken line that phone coverage and poor broadband, it is almost impossible needed to be buried underground. After waiting for to check the “Expect Openreach” site to ascertain what more than 12 months, the customers were told in the caused damage to the process in the first place. There spring that work could not be carried out until the needs to be some reflection of the fact that the normal autumn, because the farmer across whose land the line way that members of the public and customers can was to be buried would not allow Openreach to do so identify problems are not exactly open to people in until the crop on that land had been removed. In fact, more isolated areas. the farmer in question was actually one of the three I shall give the Minister a lengthy opportunity to customers affected, and that was simply not the case; answer two questions. I have secured a few Westminster the land was a grass field, and he was happy for the Hall debates, and always optimistically finish by asking work to be carried out as soon as possible. one, two or three questions. However, four and a half That example shows a little more than just a lack of years in, no answers to those questions have been communication, or some kind of mistake in the system; forthcoming. I hope and pray that the Minister will it appeared to my constituent, who was a customer of break that record. I am asking in the most helpful way the company, that the company was almost deliberately that that I can. trying to push him to one side. The fact that the work First, will the Minister explain what the UK-wide took so long and in the end required him to seek what I strategy is for ensuring greater take-up, so that we can suppose is the ultimate sanction—of going to his MP—is move our take-up figures in Wales from 17% to a much an indication of the distance that we still have to go to higher proportion? I hope that there will be a similar restore customers’ confidence in the company. improvement across the whole UK. Secondly, will he set My second and last example is of a customer waiting out the Government’s plans to deal with the 4%? What for work to be done who was told that it was necessary is the time scale and cost, and what is the expectation for the council to approve the use of traffic lights on a for the 4% of people who will fall behind the rest of the road in order for the work to be carried out, and that a UK, unless we deal with their broadband demands in request for their use had been submitted. Fortunately, exactly the same way as we deal with everybody else’s? the customer’s brother worked for the relevant department 4.43 pm in the council and knew that, first, no such request had been submitted and, secondly, there was no such The Minister for Culture and the Digital Economy requirement for traffic lights. Once this was highlighted (Mr Edward Vaizey): I am grateful for the chance to to BT, the work was carried out and no traffic lights serve under your chairmanship, Mr Streeter. I am also were used. grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire (Simon Hart)for securing this important debate. Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con): I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this debate. Those examples, My hon. Friend asked two clear questions, but also from places 200 miles away from my constituency, are pointed out that in four and half years in this place no identical to issues faced in mine. I have heard about Minister has ever answered his questions. I am a loyal Openreach blaming a local authority for failure to act, Minister and I do not intend to break ranks with my yet the local authority says that Openreach has not colleagues. I will try to use the next 17 minutes to avoid, contacted it. I am concerned, because Openreach has in any shape or form, answering my hon. Friend’s said that it needs to work with local authorities to get questions. If at any point it appears that I might stray broadband use higher, but if it is blaming local authorities towards an answer, I rely on my colleagues to intervene with no justification, surely that will not build a positive to prevent me from doing so. My hon. Friend needs to relationship. reach five years in this place without an answer, so that when the election hustings come he can say to his constituents, “In five years, no one has ever answered Simon Hart: My hon. Friend’s remarks probably my questions”. reflect those of a number of hon. Members. I hope that Of course, he will be re-elected, because he is a the new regime at Openreach, which is highly focused fantastic Member of Parliament. It is debates such as on customer relations, realises that these are not necessarily this one, in which he raises issues of concern to his isolated examples, that there is a bit of a pattern, and constituents, that show why he is such a superb MP for that it needs to treat them with the seriousness they his constituency. deserve. Of course, for customers there is that torturous process Huw Irranca-Davies rose— of trying to make a complaint to a machine of such magnitude that it is almost impossible ever to talk to the Mr Vaizey: Before I give way, will the hon. Gentleman same person twice, or to get through the endless helplines, let the House know—and the Minister answering his despite being reassured that “Your call is important to question—what his current status is? 241WH BT Openreach21 OCTOBER 2014 BT Openreach 242WH

Huw Irranca-Davies: I speak on a constituency matter. I have decided to change my mind. This is a red letter The hon. Member for Carmarthen West and South day, because I am going to answer the two questions Pembrokeshire made a good speech, in which he talked asked by my hon. Friend. What is the UK-wide strategy about rurality. I would like the Minister to answer one to promote greater take-up of broadband? He makes a question. Does he recognise that, in Wales particularly, good point. We are rolling out superfast broadband and rurality affects almost every constituency? My constituents, it is important that people take it up. It is also important Darren Hughes, Haydn and Pat David, Gill Dowling that people remember that superfast broadband is an and Justin Legg are in Pencoed and Heol y Cyw, which engineering programme. We cannot wave a magic wand are only two miles from the M4, yet they have intermittent and deliver it overnight. We must also remember that service disrupted by bad weather. However, when they there is a reason why this entire programme is not approach BT Openreach they do not get satisfactory commercial and that, although we all see the benefits of answers, let alone compensation. Does he agree that superfast broadband, it is not necessarily taken up by they need to receive good customer service and satisfaction? everyone to whom it is available. That may be because people have decided that they do not need superfast Mr Vaizey: I am not clear what question the hon. broadband or because people are not aware that it is Gentleman is asking me. Is he asking whether every available in their area. We may be able to work with constituency in Wales has an element of rurality? them to show them the benefits that superfast broadband [Interruption.] I agree—I answered that question directly. would bring them. Do I agree that his three constituents deserve the help of Openreach? I agree. I have ensured that key executives In the very best cases, local authorities work hand in from Openreach are within 50 yards of the hon. Gentleman, glove with BT and other providers to promote superfast to take up his constituency case the minute this debate broadband. One good example I can think of is Digital finishes. Durham, which from the beginning has had a take-up strategy embedded within it. Another good example is It has been a bit of a broadband day for me. I started Cornwall, where there has been an ongoing project for in the television studios of “Rip Off Britain”, with the several years. BT was originally contracted to reach great Angela Rippon, Gloria Hunniford and Julia 80%, but with the same money it is likely to reach 95% Somerville, talking about broadband speeds, where, to of the county. Cornwall has had digital take-up at its my absolute astonishment, a member of the team told very heart with broadband roll-out. me that they lived in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Lancaster and Fleetwood (Eric There are two other issues that I hope will increase Ollerenshaw) and he was an excellent Member of broadband take-up. First, working with BT, we are Parliament, in tune with his constituents. sharing data on how well take-up is going in particular I went on to a meeting with the Federation of Small areas. I opened the first broadband cabinet of our Businesses, which told me its concerns about broadband programme in North Yorkshire, in the constituency of and its ambitions for the Government. Obviously, I was my hon. Friend the Member for Skipton and Ripon fresh from answering all the parliamentary questions (Julian Smith), and I am pleased to say that after my last Thursday, where a lot of my colleagues raised their visit, take-up in that village soared to 60%. Clearly, concerns. The Secretary of State was nowhere to be although I am a pretty remarkable fellow, I cannot visit seen, because he was in India, so I had to answer every every single cabinet in the country, so that strategy has question. been ruled out. We are sharing the data on take-up by ward, so that we can identify areas where there is good I am pretty broadbanded out, but now is the time to take-up and areas where there is poor take-up to try to turn that around and give the positive message. First, see whether any particular factors are behind that. the broadband roll-out programme is going well. We have passed more than 1 million premises and we are now passing up to 50,000 a week. It has really gathered Julian Smith: I am pleased to hear that the pilot speed. We are working in all the 44 areas where we have scheme is happening and that data are being shared. contracts. When I was at a presentation in North Yorkshire a few weeks ago, there was a still some reticence on the part of In Wales, a scheme of some £200 million—if BDUK, BT Openreach to release much of its data, so I urge the Welsh Government and European money is taken into Minister to continue his campaign and to persuade it to account, and not even including BT money—will cover share as much data as possible. some 750,000 premises by spring 2015. We have already reached almost 250,000 premises in Wales with superfast broadband. Let us not forget that BT’s commercial Mr Vaizey: We have made great progress with BT. roll-out has also achieved superfast broadband for some Naturally, it is a commercial organisation, so sharing 600,000 premises. By spring 2015, some 1.3 million data with Government and more publicly is quite premises in Wales will benefit from superfast broadband, understandably an issue, because those data could be if ours and BT’s rural broadband programme are combined. shared with commercial rivals. We have reached an The programme is on track. I pay tribute to the agreement to share data by ward level on broadband, leadership of BT—Mike Galvin and Bill Murphy—on and that will begin to feed through. its rural broadband programme and on its tireless, Secondly, we have our SuperConnected Cities scheme, hard-working engineers, many of whom worked in difficult which offers business vouchers in 22 cities in the four conditions during the floods last winter to maintain it, nations of the United Kingdom. We have an advertising as hon. Members will recall. While not ever losing sight campaign promoting the take-up of those vouchers, of those who feel that they are being left behind by this and we have seen an uplift. We should therefore seriously programme—I will turn to that in a moment—it is consider whether a national campaign is needed to important to celebrate its achievements and the enormous promote the benefits of superfast broadband. I heard impact it has had. my hon. Friend the Member for Carmarthen West and 243WH BT Openreach21 OCTOBER 2014 BT Openreach 244WH

[Mr Vaizey] The third question, which my hon. Friend the Member for Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire did not South Pembrokeshire loud and clear when he said that ask, although I think it formed the bulk of his speech—the he felt that responsibility ultimately rested with the reason why he did not ask me is because, arguably, I am Government to promote broadband and broadband not directly responsible—was on the performance of take-up. While I have talked about the need for BT and Openreach on customer service. Again, I know that he others and local councils to work together, I understand has a good relationship with Openreach. He has met that point. We will look seriously at the role the Government their senior executives on at least one occasion, and can play in increasing broadband take-up. possibly today as well, to talk through his concerns and issues. It is right that every colleague can raise concerns Guto Bebb: In relation to the data being made available on operational performance. On Openreach’s operational on a ward-by-ward basis, is that a decision for the Welsh performance, I am pleased that it is in the process of Government or the Department here in Westminster? hiring some 1,600 additional engineers. As an aside, I am particularly pleased that many of those engineers Mr Vaizey: The decision on getting those data was have come from our armed services. It is good to see taken at the level of BT working with Broadband people who have served their country having the Delivery UK, and those data will come via BDUK. We opportunity for a career in a company such as BT. I will work with the Welsh Government, as we do on the meet the chief executive of Openreach regularly. He is whole broadband roll-out programme. conscious of the need to continue to improve Openreach’s The second question that my hon. Friend the Member customer service and to meet his targets. My hon. for Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire asked Friend’s concerns and those raised by many other colleagues was about how we will deal with the last 4%, and I will have been heard by Openreach. answer that question, too. It is a bit like a goal drought followed by a goal festival. It is clear that we cannot I return to the high-level points that I want to make. leave anyone behind in the broadband revolution. As I With this programme, we have one of the most successful said, it is an engineering project and cannot be wished Government-sponsored roll-out programmes anywhere into existence overnight. Having seen the success of in the world. In terms of speed and the cost to the phase 1, which was to take us to 90%—I think it will consumer, we have some of the best broadband actually go to 93% in Wales, if not further—we instituted infrastructure anywhere in the world. It is certainly phase 2, to take us from the 90% headline to the better broadband than the other big four countries of 95% headline. There was £500 million for phase 1, plus the European Union. We have a great story to tell. We local council money and BT money. Phase 2 is an are a nation that was an early adopter of e-commerce, additional £250 million to take us to 95% nationwide. so we know that our fellow citizens are adopting this Phase 3, as it will effectively be called, will be to get to technology. the last 5%. My hon. Friend talked about the last We will not, however, lose sight of those who are 4%, but we say that it is 5%, broadly speaking. frustrated and left behind. Broadband has caught up The last 5% are the most difficult homes to reach. with us and has become essential and important, whether They are the proverbial hockey stick on the graph, for leisure, because we all access the BBC iPlayer or the where the cost gets significantly higher, and we need to numerous other internet applications, or—as my hon. ensure that we get value for money. Under the previous Friend alluded to—as part of business, whether it is a Secretary of State, my right hon. Friend the Member farmer wanting to interact with the Rural Payments for Basingstoke (Maria Miller), we instituted a £10 million Agency, a citizen wanting to interact with Government fund, where we invited different providers to provide services or a small business person wanting to sell their pilots to test new technology for the most hard-to-reach products and services not just locally, but across the areas. Those pilots are under way, and I think I am right globe. We will continue to strain every sinew to ensure in saying that we are evaluating their impact. The fund that we deliver world-class infrastructure across all four opened in March 2014 and we launched the pilots in parts of the United Kingdom. I am grateful indeed to June. One is in Wales and there are others in Northern my hon. Friend for raising these important issues and I Ireland, Scotland, Hampshire, Northumberland, Kent, end with an apology for having broken his four-and-a-half north Lincolnshire, north Yorkshire, Devon and Somerset. year unbroken record of being stonewalled by Ministers The pilots have put their feasibility studies in to BDUK, by simply answering his questions as directly and and that will give us a good idea of what the best comprehensively as I could. technology is to use—those who are critical of BT will Question put and agreed to. be pleased to know that other companies are part of the pilots—and allow us to come up with a number that we can seek to fund the last 5%. That is an important 4.59 pm point. Sitting adjourned. 63WS Written Statements21 OCTOBER 2014 Written Statements 64WS

England in ensuring the sustainable use of our natural Written Statements capital assets and made three high-level recommendations, that: Tuesday 21 October 2014 The Government, as a matter of priority, take steps to improve our understanding of natural assets, focusing on TREASURY those that are not being used sustainably and are important for our well-being. United Kingdom and Macao (Tax Exchange) The Government integrates the value of natural capital into decision making to enhance taxpayers’ value for money and generate net benefits for society. The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David Gauke): A Tax Information Exchange Agreement (TIEA) The Government and interested parties endorse the Natural Capital Committee’s proposed 25-year plan to maintain and with Macao was signed on 3 September 2014. The text improve England’s natural capital within this generation. of the TIEA has been deposited in the Libraries of both Houses and will be made available on the website: The Government welcome the advice provided in the https://www.gov.uk. The text will be scheduled to a NCC’s second report. We recognised the value of natural draft Order in Council and laid before the House of capital to the country’s long-term economic growth and Commons in due course. prosperity in the landmark “Natural Environment White Paper” published in 2011. A headline commitment in the White Paper was to establish the NCC to advise the CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT Government on the sustainable use of natural capital. The White Paper also catalysed wider activity that TV Licence Enforcement Review is helping to address a number of the NCC’s recommendations, for example: The Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport Programmes of research involving Government Departments (Sajid Javid): On 9 September 2014 I announced my and the research councils to improve understanding of natural intention to begin a review into TV licence enforcement. capital, including: the £2.2 million national ecosystem assessment follow-on study which has developed tools to embed natural I am pleased today to announce the publication of capital in local and national decision making; the Natural the terms of reference for the review of television licence Environment Research Council’s £5 million work to establish enforcement. The review will begin gathering evidence ecosystem service thresholds; and the £5 million valuing this autumn and will conclude by the end of June 2015. nature network research programme on natural capital resilience. The review will be independently led on behalf of the Updating the Treasury’s Green Book guidance on policy Government by David Perry QC. appraisal and evaluation to set out more clearly how A copy of the terms of reference has been deposited environmental impacts should be taken into account in in the Libraries of both Houses. public decision making. Ambitious plans to protect and restore England’s natural capital such as the biodiversity strategy which aims to achieve DEFENCE no net loss of biodiversity by 2020. These actions lay foundations that will help achieve Middle East the Government’s ambition that this will be the first generation to leave the natural environment in a better The Secretary of State for Defence (Michael Fallon): state than it inherited. The Government remain committed Further to the update I provided to the House on to protecting the natural environment and building on 16 October on UK operations against ISIL, Official the important work they have initiated. As a result of Report, column 35WS, I can confirm that Reaper remotely the NCC’s advice we will take further action to: piloted aircraft are due to begin operations very shortly. Explore combining data sets from various sources to As well as their operations over Iraq, both Reapers provide composite species and environmental indices that and Rivet Joint surveillance aircraft will be authorised provide a clearer picture of the status of England’s natural to fly surveillance missions over Syria to gather intelligence capital. as part of our efforts to protect our national security Work with the NCC and the research councils to co-ordinate from the terrorist threat emanating from there. Reapers research efforts on natural capital so they complement one are not authorised to use weapons in Syria; that would another and have the greatest impact. require further permission. Use the review scheduled for early 2015 to examine the possibility of accelerating the work by the Office of National The legal basis for this authorisation is as set out to Statistics to incorporate natural capital into the national Parliament in the debate on 26 September. accounts and ensure it is focused on informing policy decisions. I will continue to provide updates to the House on Alongside these actions we will look forward to seeing our military activity. further more detailed proposals from the NCC in relation to its other recommendations so that Government can ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS determine how best to respond to them. In particular we would welcome development in relation to: State of Natural Capital The relative importance of the risk factors threatening the sustainable use of our natural capital; how to prioritise work to address these; and where to focus investments in our The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and natural capital assets so that resources are targeted where Rural Affairs (Elizabeth Truss): The Natural Capital they can have greatest impact. Committee (NCC) published its second report on “The Whether information is available at a sufficiently detailed State of Natural Capital” on 11 March 2014. It set out level to: allow the identification of nationally important the committee’s analysis of the challenges we face in natural capital assets, the key owners and influencers of 65WS Written Statements21 OCTOBER 2014 Written Statements 66WS

these assets, and the routes to enabling direct investment in Each of the panel members has written to me setting these; and to allow natural capital strategic priorities to be out in full any issues which might be seen to cast doubt relevant to decision makers and support national policies on their impartiality. Those letters are published in full and plans. on the inquiry’s website. I am confident that they will The integration of the evidence base on natural capital carry out their duties to the highest standards of impartiality sustainability with that in other areas of economic appraisal so that decisions to address unsustainable use can be directed and integrity. towards those that will deliver benefit to society relative to Fiona Woolf has a long and distinguished career alternative actions. throughout which she has demonstrated the highest We recognise that we have knowledge that can help standards of integrity. I am confident that she will lead answer these questions and will therefore work with the work of the panel with authority, and that under her NCC in the run up to its final report to consider how leadership the panel will get to the truth of these issues. they can be addressed with an aim to find practical They will do so on behalf of victims past and present to steps that can be taken to improve the state of England’s ensure that the sexual abuse of children is never again a natural capital. We also wish to ensure that the NCC’s hidden crime, and that past failings are acknowledged, expertise is available to advise Government on the and recommendations made for further improvements recommendations in its final report. For this reason the to current arrangements in the light of the panel’s committee’s term is being extended for six months so, findings. I wish the panel every success in its important while the Government of the day may wish to consider work. which structures are needed to sustain our natural The inquiry’s website can be found at: capital, under this extended remit it would conclude its work by end September 2015. https://childsexualabuseinquiry.independent.gov.uk/

HOME DEPARTMENT JUSTICE Child Sexual Abuse Prison Curriculum (Women) The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mrs Theresa May): Further to my statement to the House on 7 July, Official Report, column 23, and my The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Simon written ministerial statements of 9 July, Official Report, Hughes): One of my priorities is to see all women column 20WS, and 5 September 2014, Official Report, benefit from targeted education and training in prison columns 28-29WS, I am pleased to announce that I which meets their needs. This will prepare them in the have appointed the panel members to the independent best way possible for eventual release and future inquiry panel of experts, which will consider whether employment opportunities. I have therefore set up a public bodies—and other, non-state, institutions—have joint initiative between the Department for Business, taken seriously their duty of care to protect children Innovation and Skills and the Ministry of Justice to from sexual abuse. introduce a tailored curriculum in women’s prisons. Sharon Evans, Ivor Frank, Dame Moira Gibb, Professor This will mean all women who are serving custodial Jenny Pearce OBE, Dru Sharpling CBE and Professor sentences will have access to a curriculum which is Terence Stephenson will join Graham Wilmer MBE designed around their needs. and Barbara Hearn OBE as panel members for the independent panel inquiry into child sexual abuse. Ben Following an assessment of English and maths skills Emmerson QC is counsel to the inquiry, and Professor in the first week of their prison sentence, all female Alexis Jay OBE will serve as an expert adviser. prisoners will have a tailored learning plan to meet their I am confident that this panel, under the chairmanship individual needs. They will be offered a mix of “life of Fiona Woolf CBE, will carry out a robust and skills” and formal educational skills, which will build on thorough inquiry, and will challenge individuals and established programmes already available in women’s institutions without fear or favour, in order to consider prisons. this important issue, to learn the relevant lessons, and to Alongside these changes, we will expand the accredited prevent it happening again. The panel represents a peer mentors programme, using it to build life skills. diverse range of experience which includes social care, The expanded cohort of peer mentors will be able to academia, law enforcement, health, media, the voluntary enhance their employment opportunities through gaining sector and those with experience of child sexual abuse. in prison a formal qualification and experience that The terms of reference have been drafted to ensure supports the rehabilitation of other female prisoners. that this strong and balanced panel of independent These broader learning opportunities are a key part experts can have full access to all the material it seeks, of our fundamental reforms of prisons for women, unless there is a statutory impediment to it doing so. which will allow us to reach those women who previously The panel will consider matters from 1970 to the present, have been reluctant to engage in custody with education. although this can be extended if evidence is provided The tailored curriculum will mean that female offenders that supports this, and will decide how and where to will be better equipped when they leave prison, will have focus its efforts, in order to complete its work and make a greater chance of finding employment and, as a result, recommendations within a reasonable time frame. The should be less likely to reoffend. We expect that the new terms of reference have been finalised and a copy will be Community Rehabilitation Companies will work with placed in the Library of the House. The panel will education partners to help women continue their education provide an update to Parliament before May next year. and training on release. 67WS Written Statements21 OCTOBER 2014 Written Statements 68WS

NORTHERN IRELAND MOD has begun work to establish whether it holds any documents which are relevant to the inquiry and other Kincora Boy’s Home (Historical Institutional Abuse) UK Departments and agencies will do likewise. It will be important for the inquiry to determine whether either the Security Service or the MOD have The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mrs Theresa documents which are relevant to it. The detailed modalities Villiers): I have been giving careful consideration to the for achieving this are being worked upon as a matter of best way to address the allegations, some of which urgency. involve security agencies, in connection with abuse at We will resolve as quickly as possible other issues Sir Kincora Boys’ Home in Belfast in the 1970s. Anthony has raised as follows. We will ask officials The sexual abuse of children, or any tolerance by from the relevant Departments who disclose documents people in positions of authority of such activity by to his inquiry to make a witness statement confirming others, is abhorrent. I urge anyone with information that all the relevant documents and information sought about these matters to come forward to the police. by the inquiry have been produced to it, or, if no longer A number of people have proposed that the independent in existence, accounted for. We will address the question inquiry panel into institutional failures––“the inquiry of how the necessary extra resources will be made panel”––in respect of child sexual abuse to be chaired available to his inquiry in consultation with the Executive. by Fiona Woolf CBE set up by my right hon. Friend the And we will discuss with the Attorney General for Home Secretary, is the most appropriate vehicle to England and Wales whether undertakings in the usual establish the facts concerning Kincora. The remaining form can be given, as appropriate, to give immunity appointments to the panel and its terms of reference are from prosecution under the Official Secrets Act to any being announced today. person who is requested to give evidence to the inquiry. There is already in place, however, the Northern With my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary, I am Ireland Historical Institutional Abuse Inquiry––“the determined that no stone should be left unturned to inquiry”––appointed by the Northern Ireland Executive investigate such serious allegations of institutional failure. and chaired by Sir Anthony Hart. I believe that this We currently believe that the Historical Institutional inquiry is the better forum for the allegations concerning Abuse Inquiry is the best place to do that in respect of Kincora to be investigated, and we should not seek to Kincora and I, and my officials, will work closely with take them out of its remit. Sir Anthony to help to achieve that. The protection of children is a devolved matter and We will monitor carefully the extent to which the legislation was enacted by the Northern Ireland Assembly inquiry is able to make progress in respect of material to establish the inquiry. relevant to Kincora. We will look at the situation again The inquiry has already received a number of reports if the inquiry tells us it is unable to determine the facts. relating to allegations of abuse that took place at Kincora. In the event that this were to occur, there remains the It has wide powers of compulsion under section 9 of the possibility of seeking agreement to bring the Kincora Act to require persons and bodies to produce evidence, allegations within the terms of reference of the inquiry although, respecting the fact that it is a body established panel, along with the option of converting it into a by the devolved authorities, those powers do not extend statutory inquiry. to the UK Government. The Home Office inquiry panel will have no such powers of compulsion, unless a decision is made to turn it into a statutory inquiry at some point in the future. ELECTORAL COMMISSION COMMITTEE In addition, because the protection of children is a devolved matter, it would clearly be less appropriate for Individual Electoral Registration the inquiry panel to make recommendations for Northern Ireland concerning the running of the child protection system there. Mr Gary Streeter (South West Devon): (Representing Because the inquiry’s powers of compulsion do not the Speaker’s Committee on the Electoral Commission): extend to the UK Government, concern has been expressed The Electoral Commission has today published a report as to whether they will be able to deal effectively with containing an analysis of the confirmation live run the allegations that have been made of misconduct and exercise that took place in England and Wales over the cover-up regarding the horrific events that occurred at summer and which forms the first stage in the transition Kincora. to individual electoral registration (IER). The report I have discussed these issues with ministerial colleagues also summarises general progress with the implementation and can confirm that there will be the fullest possible of IER to date. The commission will report separately degree of co-operation by all of HM Government and in November on Scotland which, as a result of the their agencies to determine the facts. All Government independence referendum, only began the move to IER Departments and agencies which receive a request for in September after the poll. information or documents from the inquiry will co-operate Confirmation is the process of matching existing to the utmost of their ability in determining what electors’ details against the Department for Work and material they hold might be relevant to it, on matters Pensions (DWP) database as well as against locally held for which they have responsibility in accordance with data to identify which electors could be transferred the terms of reference of the inquiry. automatically to the new IER registers, and which ones My Department has already started this process by could not and therefore need to re-register. However, no disclosing a list of files to the inquiry held by the NIO existing elector will be removed from the registers ahead which relate to the Kincora Boys’ home. In parallel, the of the general election as a result of the change to IER. 69WS Written Statements21 OCTOBER 2014 Written Statements 70WS

Overall, the results of the live run are encouraging. does not believe that any of these issues have or will They are largely in line with the results from the test of cause long-term problems for the successful delivery of the confirmation process in 2013 and the total number IER. of electoral entries that could be matched and transferred The Electoral Commission will continue to monitor onto the new IER registers is 36.9 million. the transition to IER closely. The commission will next A total of 42.4 million electoral register entries were report on progress in England and Wales in February sent for confirmation against the DWP database and, of 2015, following the collection of data subsequent to the these, 33.7 million electoral register entries matched conclusion of the write-out and publication of the and could be directly transferred onto the new IER revised registers by 1 December 2014. The commission registers. Electoral registration officers (EROs) were will report again on progress in Scotland in April 2015 also able to carry out further data matching using local following the publication of the revised registers by data sources, to supplement the matching against the 2 March 2015. A further report on progress across DWP database, and we know that 329 of the 348 EROs Great Britain will be published in the summer of 2015, in England and Wales have done so to date. A further which will include the commission’s assessment of whether 3.2 million additional matches were made as a result of it would be appropriate to bring forward the end of the these checks. A total of 5.5 million electors could not be transition to IER from December 2016 to December matched with the DWP database or through local data 2015. matching and could therefore not be automatically The Electoral Commission has also produced a data transferred onto the new IER registers. EROs will now visualisation tool which is available on its website and focus their time and resources on targeting the 13% of will be e-mailed to all MPs. This allows Members of existing electors who could not be matched, as well as Parliament to see the confirmation rate for their those not currently on the registers at all. The report constituency and for the electoral wards within it. It summarises why the 19 EROs who have not yet carried also includes data by local authority area. Copies of the out local data matching during this phase of the transition commission’s report have been placed in the Library reached that decision, and what alternative actions they and it is also available on the commission’s website: are taking to maximise the number of electors registered www.electoralcommission.org.uk individually in their areas. Subsequent to the confirmation process, EROs have TRANSPORT been writing out to all electors who could not be automatically transferred to the new IER registers and British Transport Police Authority inviting them to re-register. The commission ran a public awareness campaign across England and Wales The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport during July and early August to ensure that electors (Claire Perry): My noble Friend, the Minister of State knew to expect a letter telling them how they were for Transport (Baroness Kramer), has made the following affected by the change and if they needed to take any ministerial statement: action. This supported targeted engagement activity I am today publishing the Part 2 report of the Triennial Review carried out locally by EROs. of the British Transport Police Authority (BTPA). The commission’s analysis of the test of the confirmation The BTPA is the non-departmental public body (NDPB) process in 2013 indicated that there are particular groups responsible for ensuring an efficient and effective British Transport Police (BTP) force for rail operators, their staff and passengers. who are less likely to be matched with DWP data The review has been progressed in two parts. Part 1 of the including students, young people and those renting review, which was published on 14 July, considered the continuing from a private landlord. This is likely to be because they need for the BTPA’s functions and the case for it to remain an change address more frequently than the rest of the NDPB, and that it is complying with recognised principles of population and their details held by DWP are therefore good corporate governance. Part 2 of the review has considered a less likely to be up to date. Encouragingly, the commission’s wider range of issues raised by the industry about the effectiveness analysis of the live confirmation process suggests that of the BTPA in the discharge of its functions and the industry’s local data matching helps to mitigate this problem to an ability to influence outcomes. extent with some of these people being able to be I am pleased to announce the conclusion of the second part of matched against local data sources such as council tax the review and the publication of the Part 2 report. The Part 2 report explores concerns on the part of the industry in relating databases. the costs incurred to the services delivered by the BTP; and what As part of the change to IER in Great Britain, for the can be done to reduce costs and to create a more harmonious and first time, people have been able to register to vote productive relationship between the Force, the Authority and its online. The commission reports that the take up of stakeholders. The report reflects the generally positive view of the online registration has been positive since it launched BTPA’s current leadership and an improving trend in its willingness to act collaboratively and to consult. It also makes a number of on 10 June in England and Wales. Cabinet Office figures recommendations for a sensible way forward for the future, a show that, as of 9 October, approximately 1.8 million number of which build on the good progress that the BTPA has applications to register have so far been submitted already made. through the online system. I would like to thank Peter Murphy again for carrying out the The commission reports, however, that there have wider review with the same thoroughness and competence with been some issues with the functionality of the electoral which he carried out the first part of the review. I would also like to thank the BTPA for its assistance as well as all the other management software systems used by EROs, which stakeholders who were involved during the course of the review have affected some—but not all—EROs, and in varying including those who were part of the Challenge group overseeing ways. While many EROs have had to revise their plans the review. to take account of a delay to the start of the write-out The report is available at: https://www.gov.uk and I have placed process as a consequence of these issues, the commission copies in Libraries of both Houses. ORAL ANSWERS

Tuesday 21 October 2014

Col. No. Col. No. HEALTH...... 739 HEALTH—continued A and E Waiting Times...... 742 NHS (North-East and Scotland)...... 750 Ambulance Response Times (London) ...... 748 NHS Trusts (Deficit Forecasts) ...... 744 Children’s Mental Health Services ...... 752 Nurse Training...... 754 Cross-border Treatment (England/Wales) ...... 753 Private Finance Initiative Costs...... 746 Hospital Walk-in Centres...... 755 Rebalancing Project ...... 751 Leeds Children’s Heart Unit...... 750 Topical Questions ...... 756 Mental Health Nurses...... 748 Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership ... 739 NHS Facilities (Contracting Out) ...... 741 WRITTEN STATEMENTS

Tuesday 21 October 2014

Col. No. Col. No. CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 63WS HOME DEPARTMENT...... 65WS TV Licence Enforcement Review ...... 63WS Child Sexual Abuse...... 65WS JUSTICE...... 66WS DEFENCE...... 63WS Prison Curriculum (Women)...... 66WS Middle East ...... 63WS NORTHERN IRELAND ...... 67WS Kincora Boy’s Home (Historical Institutional ELECTORAL COMMISSION COMMITTEE ...... 68WS Abuse) ...... 67WS Individual Electoral Registration ...... 68WS TRANSPORT ...... 70WS British Transport Police Authority...... 70WS ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS...... 63WS TREASURY ...... 63WS State of Natural Capital...... 63WS United Kingdom and Macao (Tax Exchange)...... 63WS Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. No proofs of the Daily Reports can be supplied. Corrections which Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked in the Daily Report, but not telephoned, and the copy containing the Corrections must be received at the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

not later than Tuesday 28 October 2014

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CONTENTS

Tuesday 21 October 2014

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 739] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for Health

General Practitioner Surgeries (Rural Areas) [Col. 763] Bill presented, and read the First time

Sex and Relationships Education (Curriculum) [Col. 764] Motion for leave to bring in Bill—(Diana Johnson)—agreed to Bill presented, and read the First time

Recall of MPs [Col. 770] Motion for Second Reading—(Greg Clark)—agreed to Read a Second time

Petitions [Col. 869]

High Speed 2 (Compensation) [Col. 870] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall Relationships and Children’s Well-being [Col. 177WH] Infrastructure Investment (Stroud) [Col. 200WH] Separated Families Initiative [Col. 206WH] Domestic Energy Efficiency [Col. 228WH] BT Openreach [Col. 236WH] Debates on motion for Adjournment

Written Statements [Col. 63WS]

Written Answers to Questions [The written answers can now be found at http://www.parliament.uk/writtenanswers]