I N T ROD U C T ION

This project is a study of the changes in Bridgeport neighborhoods from the viewpoint of selected Black residents during the historical periods of World War I, the Depression, World War II, and the 1960·s. By means of interviews, we have investigated the social and economic effects of each period on Black Bridgeporters. All persons interviewed have resided in Bridgeport during at least three of the targeted periods. We attempted to explore how their families, friends, and neighbors were affected during those turbulent times. We discovered the changes that occurred on their jobs, in their neighborhoods and in the city as a whole. This kit contains a transcript and a tape recording of the , interview along with suggested activities that are best suited for grades 5-8 and adaptable for high school students.

AAEA Education Committee Members!

De~ise Foster-Bey Susan Golson David Hicks Gwendolyn Johnson James Johnson Juanita wright Frances Judson, Cnairman Consultants: John Sutherland, Ph. D. David Palmquist, Curator PERSONAL DATA

William A. Allen P. O. Box 6291, Bridgeport Born: November 29, 1911 - Washington, N. C. to Annie and Albert Allen Spouse: Sybil O. Allen Children: Ten Education: High School Profession: Bail Bondsman, Real Estate Travel: Continental United States Church, New Hope Baptist Organizations, New Era Lodge #190, Elks "A Study of Bridgeport Neighborhoods: A Black perspective, 1900 -- Present"

Interview by: Juanita Wright Interview with: William Allen Date: Fall 1983 Allen Page 1 JW: Mr. Allen, we are really interested in the place

where you were born, your date of birth, when you

came to Bridgeport, and the neighborhood you lived

in. Could you tell me some of those things?

WA: Neighborhood -­ you mean of different cities?

JW: Of Bridgeport, really. Your early life. Where

were you born?

WA: I was born in Washington, North Carolina, on

November the 9th, 1911.

JW: when did you come to Bridgeport, Mr. Allen?

WA: 1920. I come here from Portsmouth, Virginia.

I left North Carolina when I was three years old.

We Came to [unclear] in Portsmouth.

JW: When you Came to Bridgeport, did you come with

your mother and father?

WA: I came with my mother.

JW: with your mother. Could you tell me something

about where you lived when you first came here?

WA: Yes, I lived on the East Side of town. The

number was 87 Clarence Street, the address.

JW: Did you go to school when you first came here?

WA: Oh, yes. I went to Waltersville School. [That]

was the first school I went to.

JW: Could you tell me something about the Blacks that

were in school with you at that time?

WA: Honestly, at Waltersville at that time I didn't

know any Blacks.

JW: You were just about the only Black that was in the Allen . Page 2

school in the early age?

WA: That's all I can recall -- my sister and I.

JW: That was about what -- 1920?

WA: 1921.

JW: In your neighborhood itself. were there many

Blacks?

WA: Mostly Portuguese. My step-father's Portuguese. too.

JW: What was your step-father's name?

WA: John DeMathis Gonzalez.

JW: How far in school did you go when you were in?

WA; I went to eighth grade at Barnum School.

JW; So you left Waltersvi11e and went directly to

Barnum?

WA: No. I was in plenty schools.

JW: Would you give me some of them?

WA: Sure. I went to Waltersville. I went to Prospect.

and there's the one on Wheeler Avenue

JW: Wheeler Avenue School?

WA; Wheeler Avenue. yes. That's Shelton School. Then to

Barnum School. to Felix School, and back to Barnum.

JW: During all those years that you were in school

there, there were very few Blacks?

WA: No, I was speaking of Waltersville. the first one I

went to. But thereafter I was with Black students.

JW; What kind of activities did you have in school that

you took part in?

WA: Most things that were active: sports, soccer,

basketball, baseball. Allen Page 3

JW: You did take a part in those things?

WA: Sure.

JW: As a Black in school during that time, you were able to take a part in most of the activities that

were in the school?

WA: yes, parades and such. JW: You went to school until you were in the eighth

grade and you graduated from Barnum at the eighth

grade?

WA: I quit.

JW: You quit in the eighth grade. Then after you quit

school, what did you actually do? What did you go into individually?

WA: I went to work, went to the Brass shop. Then I

got laid off from there and then I just traveled throughout the country.

JW: About how old were you when you left eighth grade?

WA: I was fifteen years old.

JW: Fifteen and you were able to get a job?

WA: Well, I didn't come right out of school then go

right to work. I was looking for work but I worked like on ice trucks, coal trucks, and such.

JW: Let's go back and talk about your mother for a

moment. What did she do? What was her position? Did she work or was she --?

WA: No, she was a housewife.

JW: She was a housewife. What church did she attend when she was here? What church did she go to? Alle n . page 4

WA: I think it was Mount Aery, then she went to Bethel.

When she passed, she was a member over to First Baptist.

JW: First Baptist. Now, you said Mount Aery -­ about

what year was that?

WA: That was back like '22. Reverend Wilson was the

pastor.

JW: Of Mount Aery?

WA: He was the founder of the church.

JW: Where was Mount Aery located during that time?

WA: Over on wallace Street.

JW: It was on Wallace Street, just as it has been for

years?

WA: Well, it wasn't -- it was across the street from

the new one.

JW: It was across the street?

WA: Yes.

JW: Because they've built another church now, a newer

church. So the old church is the one where they

were across the street from?

WA: There's a lot there now.

JW: But the original church?

WA: Was across from the new church that they built

across the street.

JW: So your mother was a member of Mount Aery during

that year. Were you active in the church during

that time?

WA: I've always been active in the church to a certain

extent in my younger years. Allen Page 5

JW: In having the church as a part of your home life,

is that where most of the activity for the Black

community surrounded, by the church?

WA: Well, I'll tell you, in Bridgeport there was no

such thing as that -­ to my knowledge -­ as a

Black community. They were spread out all

over Bridgeport just like they are now.

JW: Let's go into the World War II period and see what

you remember about that. Were you married at a

early age or did you do your courting and whatnot

during that time?

WA: [unclear) I was first married when I was twenty­

four. It was '34.

JW: Back in 1934. Did you have any children from that

marriage?

WA: No.

JW: Could you tell me something about the war period?

Or even the Depression, I'd be interested in that.

WA: Yes, during the war period there was nothing happening

other than the things that I know [unclear] But during the Depression, those were the

tight years. I was in the C.C.C. camp during

that time. There was the camp in East Lyme, l077th

Company it was called and it was in East Lyme. I

did my time there. It was first year and then I

re-enlist and I had a little misfortune there in

my second year I spent there. I was thrown out.

So, I went to traveling. I was called a -­ I was Allen Page 6

riding trains -­ I WaS hoboing. Yes, a hobo. Just

for a couple a years. But I always came back to

Bridgeport when it was cold season.

JW: During the time you were in C.C. camp, was that to

help your family? Were you able to help your parents?

WA: yes, the government sent help. You got a dollar a

day. That's thirty dollars a month. They'd send

twenty-five dollars home.

JW: To your family?

WA: yes. And they gave us five dollars.

JW: yes. Were you still living, your family still living

in the same place on the East Side?

WA: No, they lived on Wallace Street, across the street

from the church.

JW: yOU did live on Wallace Street. During the Depression

years, you went to C.C. camp, but do you remember

anything about being at home and people getting •. ~ together to have their meals together or anything

like that?

WA: Yes. [unclear]

JW: Did anybody come in -­ other people come in to

eat with your family or anything?

WA: Mostly like on weekends. Sunday evening when we'd

come from church, some men from outside. We didn't

have many relatives.

JW: yOU had no relatives in Bridgeport?

WA: NO.

JW: So you didn't have any extended familY to have to Allen Page 7

come in and eat and live with you?

WA: That's right.

JW: You say there was ten members, ten children -- of

your children. So, what about your brothers and

sisters? Did you have any others?

WA: I only had one sister. She passed.

JW: It was just the two of you.

WA: She passed on at an early age, I think she was

twenty-seven. (unclear]

JW: What about your mother? How long was she with

you?

WA: My mother passed in '59.

JW: Could you explain anything about Blacks in World

War II and during that time? Do you remember what

it was li~e for Blacks in this area?

WA: Yes, I know what it was like to an extent because I

tried to join the Army during the Depression before

I started traveling. I started to join the Army and

couldn't make it. I was going to enlist in the Coast

Guard in New London. The lady at the Black Y.W.C.A.

there advised me against it. (unclear] I didn't get to join. She got me a job on the

train as a fourth cook, as you might call a dishwasher.

I was trained to become a short-order cook on the

train. That was on the Columbia Express they called

it -- from Boston to Washington at that time. I

quit. I stayed on there for about six months then

I quit 1n New York. New York -- the bright lights Allen - Page 8

and I stayed there. Went to work on the railroad

in June. From time to time, I was working on the

railroad -- jumping steel, we called taking up tracks

-- replacing new ones, taking up alter tracks.

Then, this lady in New York, she since I was

staying with her, she decided she didn't want me

working there so I had to pullout from there and

I just left. I couldn't, I didn't want anybody

just It was a friend, you know.

So I left there and that's when I start to

traveling. I'd travel west then back to South.

Then I came back -- look for a job. Couldn't get

no job. I was looking to find a job there -- the

Armed Forces. The Black man, in those days they

had certain areas and a certain quota for Blacks

-- like Boston only needed a certain area that we

could join. Then they'll pitch it to Chicago or

maybe eight or ten could join. They'll pitch it

to Richmond. They just kept on picking it up.

That's why I started traveling -- trying to catch

up to an opportunity to enlist. It never did occur.

Kept traveling trying to catch them and kept

on traveling.

JW: So by World war II, then you weren't able to get

into the Army in world War II either?

WAt No, there was no Blacks could enlist at that time.

During the war, Blacks could be drafted but they

wouldn't take them to join. Certain ones, they'd Allen Page 9

pick that one, you know, status, where they want

to go. Just like Joe Louis.-­ they didn't even take

Joe Louis. He wanted to join the Navy and they

wouldn't take him. They took him in the Infantry.

JW: What did you actually do during the war since you

were not in the Army?

WA; During the war, I was in business. I had accumulated

a few pennies and I opened up a little store. During

the war I think I started this.

JW: Where was this store, Mr. Allen?

WA: Down South Main Street. It was 272 Main Street.

It wasn't, it was 276 Main Street.

JW: How long were you in business there? How long did

you stay in business?

WA; Since the year of the war. Up until right after we opened up the Brass.

JW: Do you remember the neighborhoods and how they

might have changed over the years? Could you tell

me something -­ like you were on Main Street, what

kind of changes did you see?

WA: A lot of changes and things. In what respect?

JW: How your neighborhood's changed, your community's

changed -­ you lived on the East Side for a while,

you lived on Wallace Street for a while -­

WA: Well, you see, the East Side I'm referring to is

East Sider that is between the first bridge up

here what you call the Stratford Avenue Bridge

-­ then there's another the Yellow Mill Bridge. But this the East Side is between those two bridges. Allen Page 10

It runs all the way from what they call Steel Point,

down to the harbor, all the way up to Boston Avenue and

beyond. But I was speaking of between Pleasant Avenue

and Stratford Avenue and between those two bridges

that was our East Side. That's where we lived.

NOw, north of the railroad on the East Side there

mostly lived Polish and Hungarians. In my district,

down where we lived was Italians and portuguese,

mostly Italians. Then when you get across the East

Main Street going to the school, there was all them

Jews and Italians and whatever. East Main Street

and Pembroke Street was the Jewish and Italian

neighborhood store district. That went on for a long

time, up until the war when they ripped down over

there to build Father Panik Village. They

knocked down a lot of the buildings in what they

called neighborhood businesses -­ tenement houses

and things when they built Father Panik Village.

JW: When they built Father Panik, is that what they were

doing? They were tearing down the old tenement

buildings?

WA: Oh, yes. They tore down all the old tenement buildings.

JW: Was it in this time, during the war and during the -­

WA: No, that was before the war.

JW: During the war, was that when you had a great influx

of Blacks come into the city?

WA: That's right. The war brought a great majority of

them. They started coming during the DepresSion -­ Allen Page 11

for relief, they started getting on welfare and whatnot.

They could get it here and couldn't get it elsewhere.

But the more successful or Blacks that was able to

do somethinq and had sumething, they COme right on

after the war, during the war. But during the

Depression, Blacks come to get on relief.

JW: So you had a great number of Blacks came in then

to try to survive?

WA: Yes.

JW: Is this when the Black communities began to be

established?

WA: When your speaking of the Black communities, you'd

catch occasional Blacks now. They come after the

war. It was during the war but after the war to

the great extent the Blacks of means and education,

they really brought in a lot of good to the Blacks

that were here, because they was very apathetic to , the situation up until that time. Anything they

could get, they was satisfied. They just thought

that they were -­ easy to please. You used to

have to sit upstairs in the movies and all that

kind of stuff. They accepted it. Some restaurants

and many bars -­ that was after the Prohibition was

pulled off -­ just didn't cater They didn't

give business to Blacks. [Blacks] couldn't go in

there. They'd just pick restaurants to go into

lunclear] •

JW: I guess this is when Blacks began to establish their Allen Page 12

own places to go to, since they had no place to

sociali ze?

WA: Well, that's true. Most of the places had been

established then was what we called after-hours

places. It wasn't much of a license problem or

matters of that type. If they did they'd let

Blacks come in. It was operated and owned by

whites.

JW: Do you remember say Stratford Avenue -- any

movies of any kind that was over in that area?

WA: Oh, yes. The Hippodrome was over there. AS I was

going to say when I was speaking about the East

Side, when you passed the Yellow Mill Bridge going

over [unclear] that's the East End. We used to go

over there to Pleasure Beach. But Blacks over there

had a little better standards. They were more affluent.

JW: The Blacks in the East End were what you would

call your upper [class) Blacks -- people that have

WA: Beardsley Street, Newfield Street

JW: Do you know any of the old Black families that

probably were here when you came?

WA: Oh, yes. Ballou's, the Buster's, the Ferrar's,

the Luckett's -- but they weren't over there --,

the Ballou's and the Ferrar's was over there and

up in the Trumbull. But the Luckett's was the ones

in the hollow, the other side. Now, you know you

try to think of them, offhand -- it's not easy.

JW: It's kind of hard to go back and I'm asking you to Allen page 13

go way back. You mentioned the movies and people

having to sit upstairs in the movies.

WA: Yes. I'm speaking of downtown movi0s. Now the

Hippodrome and the old one that used to be on

East Main Street -­ they were the nickel movies. Naturally, we'd want to sit upstairs because that's

where you paid a nickel. You has to pay a dime

to sit downstairs. [unclear] JW: So there were other movies besides the ones downtown?

For Black -­ for people to attend? WA: Yes, you could go to all of them. But as I say, those

were the popular ones downtown, the Palace, the Globe.

The Globe was the original poli's. Then they built

the Poli Palace that went on the corner of Congress and Main Street. Then they built the Majestic. Those

are all Poli Theaters. The old Poli was where the

Globe's parking lot is now. Then they built the

Palace on the corner. Then the Majestic next to it.

Then they went to work and built the Lyric. They

all was Poli's. Then they eliminated the old poli

and made it the Globe and the Palace became POli's

Palace. The Poli's found it and the Poli's kept it.

The Lyric came up further by the Strand Theaters.

JW: Do you remember anything about possibly Black

entertainers ever coming into Bridgeport?

WA: Sure, but I'm not able to recall their names. I

was never much for that. But the Big Bands used

to come in. Sunshine Sandy used to come here. Allen Page 14

Jimmy Plasteer used to play in the Black/White Band

Matter of fact, he originated it. He was from the

Hollow.

JW: Do you remember when employment began to change

for Blacks in Bridgeport?

WA: After the war. Prior to that, only jobs that Blacks

got was these here factories was in the foundries,

the casting and the hard and the hot foot.

JW: DO you remember anything about any factory in the

city one of the foundries? Do you remember the

name of any of them? Could you recall any of the

names of them?

WA: You mean during the war?

JW: yes.

WA: The Metropolitan, Remington's, Singer Sewing

Machine, you got General Electric, Remington, and

all them factories. Blacks couldn't get a job

there before the war. It took a government order

it. when the government ordered it,

[unclear] Now there was only two

shops that I knew that hired BlackS to any extent.

That was the Acme Shear that is now Carpentar

Steel. Not Acme Shear. Acme Shear

was a shear shop. [rest of statement is very

unclear]

And the Brass and up there in the new

shop [unclearl • They only hired them in the casting department. But these other shops, Allen Page 15

they wouldn't ~irp them. Except there was one down here. there's R"nther casting shop that's

still on Housatonic Avenu",. Didn't know what that

one is.

There was a lot of shops. but none (or Blacks.

JW: None for Blacks. WA: No. not before the war. The war opened the door.

JW: So what mostly did Blacks do? What jobs did they do? What jobs could they get? How did they survive?

WA: Well, I'll tell you, the Black man had to hustle.

The women got jobs in homes as you know. we're

talking about before the war now. The war changed a

lot of things. But prior to that. the women they

worked in services and most men worked like coal

yards. I was a longshoreman. I worked on the boats

and I worked in coal and coalyards. In the summer

time. it's nice. But just to get a job like any

other man would do no, indeed.

JW: Couldn't get them. It was just tough.

WA: It's not tough. It just didn't exist.

JW: We were just barely surviving, really. Just did survival work.

WA: We had to hustle. We wrote numbers and sold liquor.

We gave weekend parties, what they call house rent parties. That's what we did allover town

we played • I couldn't pay the rent • My mother didn't want us to do those kinds of things. JW: What I want to talk to you about is the civil Allen . Page 16 rights movement in the 1960's? Do you have any

feeling" about that or what happened during the

WA: I was glad to see Martin Luther King's movement and his passive way in proportion to the Black Muslim movement, so-called militant. And it wasn't in my opinion militant, it was just a upright, honest man type of movement. But I felt like it was very good for both of them when the government started to loosen up and gave Martin Luther [King] a lot of consideration __ in my opinion, to offset the militant of the Black Muslims and all that kind of that. The speaker for them Muslims, the one called down by the head Muslim, i when he said, the chicken come home to roost -­ I I JW; You talking about Malcolm X? [\ WA: Malcolm X. Now those characters did a whole lot. I They helped a whole lot. Each one of them -- every l one of them played a part -- [unclear] I\

JW; Did you see the effects of it in Bridgeport at all? WA; Yes. TO the point that so many of our people were disgusted with the fact they wasn't doing us no good for them to be doing this movement. But, hell, they wasn't -- they was doing a lot of good. Every little bit helps. It kind of scared me -- my daughter went to the civil right movement. She went down South. It Allen < Page 17 happened to register voters -­ and they dream. She was with what they called this outfit. But anyway, the BlacK guy, he got promoted to a good job. I was scared but she said -­ young people have to be daring and adventuresome and she didn't mind. JW: She went down for the Voter's Rights Movement? WA: Yes, she did. She got caught out there in the mud, and the wind, and in the fields miles and miles away from nowhere. But they really was going to get to it She was saying that she was better received [unclear] by the whites than she did by the Blacks. The BlaCKS were saying we didn't send for them -­ we don't want them here. JWI That was mostly fear, I think.

WA:, It was. JW: In the Sixties, do you think that that's when the jobs really began to improve in the Bridgeport area for BlaCKS? WAI We had improvement before that but today there seems We had a different influx of Blacks in Bridgeport. After the war, they began to really show results and a lot of these "old-timers" had been here maybe since yesterday and they felt they was the upper crust between the BlaCKS [unclear] But after getting in here, [unclear] I'm sorry they were. They began really going to school and doing something for theirselves. Because Allen Page 18 I remember before that, they didn't go to high-schools [end of side one] [break in taped conversation occurs here] WA: That was hardly, there's no need to go any farther than that. At the same time, my mother did need some help. I really liked school. I didn't have no ability, no background. There was nothing to offer us in high school. I just didn't go. I went to work around here. I went to work in New Haven. Odd jobs and everything else, hustling and everything else. But those days -- the Black went to high school, that was equivalent to going to college. So many of them went to college and got a job driving elevators. They thought they had I you know, hit the top rungs. They were satisfied \ with it. Look at Albert Finn, John Lancaster -­ he's a lawyer -- they enjoy it. But you get them a job collecting tolls, you know what I mean? \ JW: Did he never really practice law until I WA: After this whole thing, just before he passed. The only big thing he did in law was , and real estate, going searching real estate problems I for different lawyer's offices. He never did -­ I JW: No, because of the prejudice. WA: He never did get past the Bar [exam]. [unclear] JW: And I think you had to have it from so many lawyers Allen Paqo 19

in order to even take the test. That's reill s,,,4

about us about how hard it has been for us.

Was any of your family or your children in

the Viet Nam war at any time?

WA: No. Most of my relatives was girls. We had a couple boys but they were not in the war.

JW: You say you had ten children. Would you just

name them for -­ WA: Not by the same [woman]. They're really illegit.

JW: So let's not even talk about them. ,I IS there anything, anything at all, that you ,[ d would like to talk about that we did not cover? ;1 Anything that you'd just like to talk about something, fl H I'd like to have it on the tape. Anything that you : 1 , I would like to tell us. !i WA: I would say this now. My first daughter -- Gloria.

She's Gloria Davis now. At the time that she finished school, she finished Norwalk High, I when I say finished school. I was not in any I 1 I i position to send her further than that. In fact, I [unclear] She went to Balcus. She was in

Business School. The first year she went there

was summer time. She

They was giving other people jobs, other students

were getting jobs for the summer. She went out

and she tried to get a job herself. When the school

opened up, they called for us.

She went back to school. Modern Tobacco called the Allen Page 20 house and said that she had put an application in. They wanted her to come in. I went up to the school and told her she had this -- they accepted her application at Modern Tobacco. They was over on River Street at the time. She picked her books up and left the school and went to Modern Tobacco. She quit and she worked there until she got married. Then she picking up and doing and carrying on. She got more adept at it. Then she worked for Bishop Manufacturing, she worked for the and now she's with the Hall Neighborhood doing the timekeeping over there. Doing the payroll taxes JW: with George pipkin? WA: pipkin. So this is one thing that I found that bothers her. She wouldn't hear it. She's doing like I had to do. She had to get out and do for herself. Now at that time that I was saying, the Blacks didn't get the opportunity. So she went I I out and did for herself. I JW: What she had to. I i WA: [unclear] This last she's been there a couple of times. And now she has been there about ten years. But there she go That was one of the funny things about

• Then, the other two that I raised up -- one is a doctor and one is a consultant for industrial, consultant for big companies.

1, Allen Page 21 JW: So those are things that happened later on? WA: These are things that are different from the time I come around. I see the change from my kids as I say, with Gloria. Now she had to go out and do things that she didn't even know, didn't realize what's out there. But that's the change from back there. That's very obvious at this particular time. JW: Is there anything else that you'd like to tell us about? Anything that went on in Bridgeport with Blacks, or anything that might be helpful. WA: I'll say this. I think the influx of Puerto Ricans helped us a lot. That's my opinion. I know when I first corne in here, I was raised with Portuguese and Italians and they was just getting off the boat' too. It was tough. Then, as soon as they was getting elevated, and they started doing things for themselves, like Tedesco, Mandanici

They made their way the hard way. But then us Blacks -- we was conspicuous for our color. They was conspicuous by their accents and by their names. At first, they'll change their names for a while and then try to alter everything, until they got a good foothold. Then they're accepted. And the puerto Ricans are doing the same thing. Now, the Black is going to have to just accept themselves and be proud of their own and do things. We're just beginning to realize we have a Allen . Page 22 heritage and a culture and to accept it. I remember when Blacks -- you couldn't even say "Black". You call me colored, Negro, anything else but black.

Don't call me black, you know?

This is one of the happiest days in my life, to realize that the Blacks are not ashamed of being Black. JW: Yes, that is wonderful. WA: The funniest thing happened to me once, I was out to list a house from a lady when I was in real estate. She was saying to me about her son. She had a son out in Oklahoma who was a half-breed. His father was an Indian and she was white. Her son had killed a man out there for calling him a "damned half-breed." That was just about a bad as calling a Black man a "nigger." This man had called him a "damned half- breed" and he killed this man. He was doing time -- I don't know, like ten, twelve years or something. But he was getting ready to come out. She had moved here she said, because in the East he would be con­ sidered white and there wouldn't be any problems for him. But she still wouldn't let me in that house to list that house because she couldn't sell to it to colored people up in that neighborhood -- Lafayette Street. It was all Polish around there and she said she didn't want to offend those people. But she was so upset about it, she didn't want to do it: but Allen Page 23 she just couldn't bring herself to do this. I talked to her so frankly, like I'm talking to you -- more so at that time than I'm talking to you. She says to me, "You don't mind being colored, do you?" I said -- I don't know how it popped in my mind -­ I said, "Miss, listen, I've got just as much right being Black as you have to be white. And I've never been ashamed of being Black." She was so amazed, she didn't know what to do. She invited me in the house, gave me a cup of tea, and we get on -­ But you know she didn't list that house. JW: Wouldn't list it, would she? WA: She would have listed with me if I'd have sworn to her that I would not sell it to Blacks. I had white people ready to buy the house. But I would not condescend to accept this sort of arrangement with her -- to say I wouldn't. During the war, I had the same thing happened to me with a Jewish lady, too. She had a house over on Beardsley Street she had listed with me. [unclear] She didn't mind us selling that to Blacks. You know, because you're

Black they think [unclearl • But that wasn't so, we dealt with everybody. She had a house on Barnes Street. It was all white there. She was saying she couldn't list it with us because she says, "Some Jewish people living there, and they would severely offended," Allen Page 24

She was Jewish. It was during the war when they

were just killing and annihalating the Jews. And

she cried. She lived on Hanover Street. And she

cried. She'd be on

the bus, and she'd sit down and some people would

get up and say they smelled something -- call it

"kike" or something. Said they'd insult her every

which way. But still she could not bring herself

to what she called offend these people by letting

a Black sell her property.

But you know that's not the end of it. I've

had Blacks doing the same thing. Blacks do the

same thing. There's a fellow in real estate then

downtown on Stratford Avenue told me about when he

went to list a house, he'd put up a sign over on

this house over on DeForest Avenue. He said a

Black lady came out the door next door and spoke

to him in Italian, "Mister, please don't sell this

to Black people."

JW: Really?

WA: That's what he said. So, discrimination ain't just

discriminating in this [unclear) Discrimination

is flared allover. And he laughed when he told me

this. And I know it's true.

I know another Black lady that was a friend of

mine. I had my sign on a house over there on Whitmore

Street on the East Side. She looked and seen my sign

and she went to these here same people I was telling Allen . Page 25

you -­ mentioned down here on [unclear) , she

went to the same people to buy the house. I owned

the house. I had bought the house strictly so

they came to me. [laughs) She seen my sign, she

know me.

JW: And wouldn't call you.

WA: She went to them to buy the house. So they told

me all about it. Now, Buddy, all you got to do-­

I said well, l've got to pay commission, she'll

have to pay the commission. And you know, she

paid five hundred over what it would have cost

her through me.

JW: Rather than to come to you to buy it?

WA: She didn't know to. She knew it, I suppose,

she got so mad she -­

JW; [Laughs.]

WA: This ain't a one-way street, Miss Wright.

JW: NO. well, listen, Mr. Allen, I really thank you

so much. If there's anything else you'd like to

say, we'll be glad to hear it.

But we want to thank you so much for doing

this interview. I think we're going to have a

lot of good things for the children to hear on

this.

[End of Interview]