Vol. 723 Monday No. 90 10 January 2011

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD) HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICIAL REPORT

ORDER OF BUSINESS

Introductions: Baroness Kramer, Baroness Wheatcroft, Lord Lexden Deaths of Members: Lord Windlesham and Lord Strabolgi Tributes Questions EU: Budget UN Women Equality: Act of Settlement Schools: League Tables Budget Responsibility and National Audit Bill [HL] Order of Consideration Motion Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill Committee (7th Day) Blood and Blood Products Statement Health: Parkinson’s Disease Question for Short Debate Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill Committee (7th Day) (Continued) Written Statements Written Answers For column numbers see back page

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© Parliamentary Copyright House of Lords 2011, this publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Parliamentary Click-Use Licence, available online through the Office of Public Sector Information website at www.opsi.gov.uk/click-use/ 1161 Introductions[10 JANUARY 2011] Deaths of Members 1162

Lord Windlesham was educated at Ampleforth and House of Lords Trinity College, Oxford, where he read law. He was Monday, 10 January 2011. commissioned in the Grenadier Guards—his father’s regiment—for national service, yet on graduation he 2.15 pm soon found a passion for politics sitting side by side with a career in television. In the general election of Prayers—read by the Lord Bishop of Gloucester. 1959, he stood unsuccessfully as the Conservative candidate in the Tottenham seat. The tragic and Introduction: Baroness Kramer unexpected death of his father—the second Lord Windlesham—in 1962 changed the trajectory of his 2.23 pm political career and deprived the Commons of what Susan Veronica Kramer, having been created Baroness clearly would have been one of its youngest and brightest Kramer, of Richmond Park in the London Borough of stars. As has often been the case, their loss was our Richmond upon Thames, was introduced and took the considerable gain. oath, supported by Baroness Hamwee and Lord Watson Taking his seat as the third Baron Windlesham, and of Richmond, and signed an undertaking to abide by the ever with an eye towards the topical and yet enduring Code of Conduct. questions of government, he made his maiden speech in this House on the subject of reform by supporting Introduction: Baroness Wheatcroft Tony Benn’s desire to renounce his peerage and remain in the Commons. It was not without irony, therefore, 2.29 pm that after further reform in the 1990s and towards the Patience Jane Wheatcroft, having been created Baroness end of his own career, Lord Windlesham was made a Wheatcroft, of Blackheath in the London Borough of life Peer in order that he might continue to bring his Greenwich, was introduced and made the solemn affirmation, considerable expertise to the service of the nation. supported by Lord Moynihan and Lord Oakeshott of As Minister at the Home Office between 1970 and Seagrove Bay, and signed an undertaking to abide by the 1972, Lord Windlesham took responsibility for the Code of Conduct. penal system against the backdrop of a rising prison population. He handled both the Immigration Bill and the Industrial Relations Bill with calm efficiency Introduction: Lord Lexden and considerable charm, as it was then said. At the 2.34 pm newly created Northern Ireland Office, from 1972 to Alistair Basil Cooke OBE, having been created Baron 1973, his appointment as the first statutory Catholic Lexden, of Lexden in the County of Essex, and of to hold ministerial office for the Province at a time of Strangford in the County of Down, was introduced and rising tension was described as “inspired” and his way took the oath, supported by Lord Cope of Berkeley and of business “even-handed”. Lord Black of Brentwood, and signed an undertaking to Thereafter, as Leader of this House and Lord Privy abide by the Code of Conduct. Seal, until the Conservative Government fell in February 1974, Lord Windlesham was the youngest Leader since Lord Grenville in 1790. Lord Windlesham Deaths of Members: Lord Windlesham and brought a quiet, authoritative manner to the handling Lord Strabolgi of important and often difficult business. A safe and Tributes steady pair of hands, courteous and precise, brave and yet never over-reaching, he stood by his Prime Minister, 2.39 pm his party and his country during some of their toughest times. The Lord Speaker (Baroness Hayman): My Lords, I regret that I have to inform the House of the recent Lord Windlesham continued to lead the Opposition deaths of the noble Lords, Lord Windlesham and in the Lords until the second election of 1974, whereafter Lord Strabolgi. On behalf of the House, I extend our he resigned the post and again turned his attention to condolences to the noble Lords’ families and friends. television as managing director of ATV. In 1982, he was appointed chairman of the Parole Board, which The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord meant more often than not defending a system that Strathclyde): My Lords, I pay tribute to Lord Windlesham, was under much criticism. In 1988, he found himself who died on Tuesday 21 December, aged 78. We in a similarly criticised position, when he was caught remember him today principally in light of his role as between the political establishment and television Leader of your Lordships’ House from June 1973 documentary makers. His independent inquiry into until February 1974, but his was a career so much the factual accuracy of Thames TV’s “This Week” more than those turbulent and testing eight months. investigation into the shooting of three members of He was a man whose great qualities needed no titles to the IRA in Gibraltar prompted disagreement with shine through. He achieved a great deal in public life, No. 10 but won the support of the Independent but he was admired more than anything else for his Broadcasting Authority. quiet, tactful and sympathetic understanding of the David Windlesham mixed in equal measure a keen people and the issues that surrounded him. A liberal in sense of public service with an independent, liberal character and a Conservative in party, he was not and fair mind. He was generous in spirit and firm in afraid to be independent minded, even if that at times purpose. His political instincts and his media skill set him against those of his party. would not have looked out of place in a modern-day 1163 Deaths of Members[LORDS] Deaths of Members 1164

[LORD STRATHCLYDE] spoke to us on that occasion his commitment to these Administration. His understanding of many of the Benches and to our party’s values was as clear as his challenges that Governments of all ages continue to commitment to the House as a whole. David also face was acute and will be missed. Our thoughts and contributed much to a wider society, especially in prayers are with his family at this sad time. They and relation to the arts. He was a painter and had a studio we have lost a great man and a great friend. in Paris shortly before the war. He also contributed My Lords, although precedent may not provide for much to Franco-British relations. This House has lost this as such, it also seems right at this time to pay two very fine Members who were very fine servants of tribute to Lord Strabolgi, who died on 24 December, their own parties. Both will be missed on their respective aged 96. He was the 11th Baron. He succeeded his Benches but it is a tribute to them both that they will father as long ago as 1953, and during Wilson’s first also be much missed on all sides of your Lordships’ Government became a PPS at the Home Office and House. then, in 1969, PPS to Lord Shepherd as Leader of the House. After a spell as an opposition Whip in 1974 he became government Deputy Chief Whip, tasked with Lord Dholakia: My Lords, we associate this side of getting difficult and controversial business through the House with the tributes paid to Lord Windlesham the House. Back again in opposition, he became arts and Lord Strabolgi by the Leader of the House, the spokesman—a role that he relished—and, in 1986, noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, and the Leader of the Deputy Speaker and Deputy Chairman, positions that Opposition, the noble Baroness, Lady Royall of Blaisdon. he held until 2001, having been elected a hereditary The deaths of both distinguished noble Lords will be a Peer in 1999. considerable loss to your Lordships’ House. Their contributions to political and public life have been Lord Strabolgi seemed in so many ways part of the unique. fixtures and fittings of this House. It may have taken him a while to get from the top of the stairs to the In the case of Lord Strabolgi, we can dispel the Chamber, but it was at least in part to greet his many suggestion of a retirement age. He had occupied many friends from all round the House. Lord Strabolgi was senior positions during the time that the Labour Party a Labour man through and through. He took his was in opposition and also when he was in the party politics seriously but that was always without Government. On a more positive note, the noble Lord rancour. He was a dedicated attender and was in the was born in a Liberal family and had flirted with the House two days before he died. We send our condolences Liberals in his political career. The noble Lord died at to his family and pay tribute to the extraordinary the age of 96. It is a sad loss and we send our example of service and humanity which the late Lord condolences to his family. Strabolgi leaves us. Lord Windlesham also had a unique career. He was a very resolute politician. Many of us remember his confrontation with the noble Baroness, Lady Thatcher, Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: My Lords, I am grateful at the time of the “Death on the Rock” controversy, to the House, and to the Leader of the House, for this but there was also a very gentle side to his character. I opportunity to say a few words about Lord Windlesham first came into contact with him when he was chairman and Lord Strabolgi—two very fine servants of your of the Parole Board. The noble Lord, Lord Hurd, the Lordships’ House. David Windlesham had a remarkable then Home Secretary, had set up a commission under number of distinguished careers: in the media, in both Lord Carlisle of Bucklow to review the parole system. production and management; in academia in Oxford, Our first witness was Lord Windlesham. He was proud especially at Brasenose College; and in government, of a system that provided early release of inmates particularly at the Home Office. But of course his under licence, and many of his suggestions were period in this House was equally as distinguished. I incorporated into the commission’s final report. have had the honour to do just one of the jobs that he undertook, as Leader of this House, and I pay tribute I was always impressed with his contribution in to the work that he did. To be Leader of your Lordships’ your Lordships’ House on criminal justice matters. House is both an enormous privilege and an exacting The quiet but resolute way that he put his case to task, and Lord Windlesham carried out his role in this improve our prison system was a lesson for many of Chamber in an exemplary way. us. His book, Politics, Punishment and Populism,isa must for all reformers. We join others in sending our To be a Member of your Lordships’ House is a condolences to his family and friends. great privilege. To be a Member for any length of time extends that privilege enormously. To be a Member for 56 years, as David Strabolgi was—as an active and Baroness D’Souza: My Lords, on behalf of the assiduous Member—is quite extraordinary.David served Cross Benches, I should like to add to the tributes that this House well. His long service as a Deputy Speaker have already been paid to the noble Lords. Lord in your Lordships’ House reflects that and it reflects Strabolgi was 96 years old, and his almost 60 years in the esteem, respect and popularity in which he was this House make for quite a record. We will all remember held by all sides of this House. He served these Benches his familiar figure making its slow but determined way well too. He held firm political convictions. He served through the Corridors of the House. He was immensely in Labour Administrations in the 1960s and 1970s, kind, courteous and cheerful, and was always and on the opposition Front Bench in the 1980s. immaculately dressed. When he spoke, perhaps because Entirely coincidentally, we held a little party in my he spoke so rarely, he was listened to with great room here for David just a few weeks before his death, respect. What shone through for me was his adherence to mark his 96th birthday, and in the words that he to the principle of independence, his loyalty to the 1165 Deaths of Members[10 JANUARY 2011] EU: Budget 1166 party that he eventually joined and his ability to hit on a reasoned assumption that has the support of the the nail on the head, which was evidence of a very Council of Europe, and so then to sign off the accounts? fine mind. In other words, will the Government take some step, if I have always felt somewhat connected to Lord not that step? Windlesham by a series of curious coincidences. He lived in the village next door to me; his cousin, who is Lord Sassoon: My Lords, I am grateful to my noble a dear friend of mine, lives in the same village as I do; friend for drawing attention to a clearly unsatisfactory and his wife was the aunt of a close friend of mine. situation. Yearafter year, the European accounts cannot However, I never actually met him until I got to this get a clean audit opinion. However, it is the Government’s House. We have heard that he had a distinguished view that the way forward is not to press for treaty career in various ministries and as principal of Brasenose changes but to try to make sure that the whole system College. Although he was a somewhat quiet and reserved of accounting is made simpler and clarified. It should man, he should also be remembered for having promoted concentrate on what is important, and the capabilities modest reform of the House of Lords, for which the of both the European Commission and other agencies— Cross-Benchers will certainly be quite fond of him and whether at the European level or, particularly, within will miss him greatly. member states—to manage the money should be enhanced The passing of both noble Lords means that this is so that we get out of an appalling situation that we do a sad time for all of us, but I am sure that they will be not want to see continue. However, treaty change is remembered by parliamentary historians. They will be not the appropriate vehicle. greatly missed by us. Lord Pearson of Rannoch: My Lords, can the Minister The Lord Bishop of Gloucester: My Lords, on behalf think of a better word than “grotesque” to describe of the Lords Spiritual, I add my tribute to Lord the situation whereby the overall supervision of our Windlesham and my condolences to his family. I priceless financial services has been passed to an acknowledge his particular contribution as a Roman organisation that, as he has mentioned, has been Catholic to peace and reconciliation in Northern Ireland. incapable of getting its own accounts signed off by its As we have heard, his appointment as Minister of internal auditors for 16 years? State in the Northern Ireland Office was described as Lord Sassoon: My Lords, I said that the situation in “inspired”. Without people like him, the tensions between which we find ourselves, with the European accounts Catholics and Protestants in that province might be not getting a clean audit opinion, is completely unhappier now than they are. We give thanks for him unacceptable. The connection between that and the and for his contribution to the House and to the regulation of financial services in Europe is somewhat nation. tenuous. We should focus on ways of improving the I also add, on behalf of the Lords Spiritual, my budget situation. My right honourable friend the Prime condolences to those who mourn the death of Lord Minister has already taken steps, both on this year’s Strabolgi. Reference has been made to his humanity budget and by talking about what we expect from the and his untiring service, and these are qualities that we financial framework for the next seven years of the all should want to emulate. I acknowledge with gratitude budget. Those are the ways in which we have to move in particular his service on the Ecclesiastical Committee. forward determinedly. We give thanks also for him. Earl Cathcart: My Lords, my noble friend says that EU: Budget we have a treaty obligation to pay our contribution to Question Brussels. Quite so, but surely there is also a treaty obligation to ensure that all EU money is properly 2.53 pm spent. Secondly, if Brussels blames the nation states Asked By Lord Campbell of Alloway for these financial irregularities, why do we not put pressure on the Commission to name and shame, and To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps then block future payments to, those countries responsible they will take to ensure that the expenditure on for the fraud and mismanagement? accounts for the budget signed off by the European Court of Auditors shall be excluded from the Lord Sassoon: My Lords, there are indeed things contribution imposed on member states. that we can do and will consider doing. The Council considers the budget issue in the early months of each The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord year. It is rare—certainly it has not been done in recent Sassoon): My Lords, the UK cannot withhold its years by a UK Government—to vote in Council against contributions to the annual European Union budget waving through the budget without a clean audit as it is required to make those contributions under opinion. However, as my honourable friend the Economic obligations imposed by the treaties. The European Secretary has made clear in another place, the Government Communities Act 1972, particularly Section 2, gives are ready to use our vote if we see accounts that fail to effect within the UK to Community law. meet the standards that we think they should. She said in another place: Lord Campbell of Alloway: I ask the noble Lord in “If we see accounts that contain points made by the European response: since the findings of the Council are subservient auditors that we believe the Parliament is not taking on board, we to the approval of the Parliament, will the Government will be ready to use our vote in future to challenge the Commission now seek change to the Lisbon treaty to enable the in a way that the last Government never were”.—[Official Report, European Court of Auditors to oppose expenditure Commons, 13/10/10; col. 456.] 1167 EU: Budget[LORDS] UN Women 1168

Lord Newby: When was the last year that DWP got Baroness Northover: The Government welcome the a clean audit opinion? establishment of UN Women and recognise that it has received strong cross-party support. UN Women should Lord Sassoon: My Lords, I cannot tell the House help to deliver the development commitments to which that but I am very happy to write with the information. Governments signed up at last year’s MDG summit. A I think that it involves different auditing standards decision on all relevant DfID funding commitments and a different structure but I shall be very happy to will be made when the Government’s multilateral aid confirm that. review concludes early this year. In the mean time, we Lord Mawhinney: My Lords, those of us who have have offered UN Women transitional support. been privileged to serve at either end of this Building Baroness Prosser: I thank the Minister for her reply. for the past 15 years have listened to Answers remarkably Does she agree with the research that was conducted similar to the one which my noble friend has just by the Department for International Development, given. Will he assure your Lordships’ House that which showed that families and communities gain progress is being made to the end which he desires, or better value from money spent directly on women and are we going to listen to similar Answers for another girls? Does she therefore agree with me that it would 15 years? represent a sound investment towards global peace Lord Sassoon: My Lords, I sincerely hope that we and security if the United Kingdom Government provided will not; anyway, I am sure that I will not be here financial support to UN Women to at least the level of giving those Answers for 15 years. We are making funding allocated to UNICEF? progress: the number of areas of qualification of the Baroness Northover: I pay tribute to what the noble budget is going down and the level of fraud has been Baroness has done in this field. The Government very significantly reduced and is at a very low level, so there much agree with her point that supporting women and are certainly improvements in the detailed audits coming girls is central to development, as 70 per cent of those forward. However, that is occurring within a total in dire poverty are women but only 30 per cent are picture which, I repeat, is not acceptable. We must men. Therefore, one can see that efforts to redress the work towards achieving more progress. balance have not yet worked. A lot more needs to be Lord Hunt of Chesterton: My Lords, does the Minister done, and supporting women and girls is central to agree that many important projects and finances come that. through our involvement with the European Union Baroness Gardner of Parkes: Will the Minister clarify which are valuable in areas ranging from agriculture whether this body replaces the United Nations to manufacturing? He should be well aware that if Commission on the Status of Women, on which my there is excessive interest in detailed financing and noble friend Lady Trumpington and I served—I followed control, it will be very difficult for these projects to her—and whether it replaces UNIFEM or is an entirely operate. different body? I do not think that many of us are very Noble Lords: Oh! clear about exactly what this body is. Lord Hunt of Chesterton: You just have to listen to Baroness Northover: This body takes into itself both all the important manufacturers who find involvement those organisations, and others. UNIFEM will operate in Europe extremely valuable. I hope the Government within it. Because it is clear that the position of will ensure that this support is effective as well as women has not been properly addressed, it was decided valuable. when reforming the United Nations that this umbrella organisation was required, and that the existing Lord Sassoon: My Lords, we are taking steps—for organisations overlapped; they were rather fragmented example, I think that we are one of only three or four and needed to be brought together under UN Women— countries which voluntarily publish audited statements and they will be. That is why this new organisation was on the way that co-managed funds are used in the UK. supported. There is cross-party support for its development As a country we are doing everything to make the UK and we very much support its future development. accounts as transparent and thoroughly audited as any, and the European Commission has noted that Lord Chidgey: Does my noble friend agree with with approval. It is depressing that in agriculture, the international agencies which say that the lessons learnt largest area of spend, the error rate found by the from conflicts as far away as the Congo and Haiti auditors is going up. show that tackling violence against women has to start at the very earliest stages of the relief effort and must UN Women form part of an integrated international relief programme? Question What therefore is the Government’s position on providing this hard-won experience as a model for other agencies 3.03 pm to use throughout the world when tackling these Asked By Baroness Prosser emergencies? Will the Government make sure that this new UN women’s agency takes this message forward To ask Her Majesty’s Government, in the light as part of its programme? of the launch of UN Women on 1 January, what plans they have to provide a financial contribution Baroness Northover: UN Women has only just been to the new agency and when an announcement will established and is working out its strategy, but the be made. United Kingdom is on the board of the executive and 1169 UN Women[10 JANUARY 2011] Equality: Act of Settlement 1170 is therefore helping to develop that strategy. The we allow such discrimination to continue in the succession organisation’s very existence is based upon the problems to the Throne. Does he also agree that, given that there that the noble Lord, Lord Chidgey, points to. It is is a bar on Roman Catholics, it is odd that there is no extremely important that the position of women bar against Jews, Muslims, Hindus or even atheists? is addressed, particularly where there is conflict. That Does he further agree that the matter is of some is increasingly recognised, and we have to make sure urgency? If His Royal Highness Prince William and that the United Nations and the UK are as effective as his bride have children, it would be invidious to change possible in addressing those problems. the arrangements then. The time to do it is surely now.

Lord Boston of Faversham: My Lords, will the Minister acknowledge that today is the anniversary of Lord McNally: My Lords, I might agree with many the first sitting—in, I think, 1947—of the United of the propositions that the noble Lord has put forward, Nations General Assembly? I should perhaps declare but as the previous Administration recognised, we are an interest as one of your Lordships’former parliamentary dealing with Acts of Parliament that govern not only representatives at the United Nations General Assembly us but a number of countries where the Queen is Head in New York. Would it be too much to ask whether the of State. For that reason, we have been proceeding noble Baroness has any plans for the UN General with extreme caution. Assembly to resume its sittings here in London? The Lord Bishop of Manchester: My Lords, does Baroness Northover: I thank the noble Lord for the Minister accept that the central provision for the that. It would be an interesting development, but I establishment of the Church of England is that the cannot see that it would have universal support. However, Sovereign, as Supreme Governor, should join in I can always feed that suggestion through. It is clearly communion with that church? Does the Minister agree an extraordinary development that the United Nations that, unless the Roman Catholic Church is prepared to exists at all. When one bears in mind the international soften its rules on its members’ involvement with the problems that we face, we need to build on the strengths Church of England, whose orders it regards as null that the UN already has, make sure that in future it and void, it is hard to see how the Act of Settlement can do even more to resolve international conflict, and can be changed without paving the way for ensure that, where there is poverty, it is addressed. disestablishment, which, though it might be welcome to some, would be of great concern to many and not Baroness Armstrong of Hill Top: Does the noble just to Anglicans or, indeed, to other Christians? Baroness accept that despite the enormous support that the UN has had, women still work two-thirds of the hours worked across the world, but actually receive Lord McNally: My Lords, that intervention shows only 10 per cent of the income, and that in those the wisdom of proceeding with extreme caution on circumstances the new agency is very important? If we these matters. are to achieve the millennium development goals and see real development, we must have a strong women’s organisation at the UN to drive that. Can she assure Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: My Lords, is my noble us that the Government understand that and are friend aware that, shortly after joining this House determined that women take their rightful place in more than 10 years ago, I introduced a Private Member’s negotiations and in the money that is allocated at the Bill that was torpedoed very effectively by my noble UN? friend Lord St John of Fawsley and which sought to prevent the heir to the Throne marrying a Roman Baroness Northover: I could not agree more. The Catholic? The then Government used exactly the same Government are very seized of that and will certainly argument, saying that it required countries in which take that forward. the Queen is Head of State to pass legislation and that they would take the matter forward. It is more than 10 years since that commitment was made. What Equality: Act of Settlement progress was made and what was done? Question 3.09 pm Lord McNally: My Lords, first, I welcome the Asked By Lord Dubs noble Lord down from his mountain in Antarctica. Messages from the mountain top are always welcome. To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they We are talking about an Act that is 300 years old and have any proposals to amend the Act of Settlement that has served this country not too badly when one to afford equal rights to the Throne for daughters considers the 60 years of religious and communal of the Sovereign and Roman Catholics. strife that went before it. Therefore, although 10 years seems a long time, there have been consultations. I The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord thought that, at least in this House, talking of progress McNally): My Lords, the Government do not have in terms of centuries would be much appreciated. As is any plans to amend the Act of Settlement. known, the previous Administration initiated discussions among Commonwealth countries. Those discussions Lord Dubs: My Lords, does the Minister agree that, are proceeding under the chairmanship of the New as a country, we oppose discrimination on grounds of Zealand Government and we will continue to keep the gender or religion? It is curious, to say the least, that matter under consideration. 1171 Equality: Act of Settlement[LORDS] Schools: League Tables 1172

Lord Richard: My Lords, I share almost totally the for stealing sheep and jailing children for stealing views of the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth. I was very bread. Will the Minister make his advice known privately interested in what the noble Lord, Lord McNally, just through the Privy Council and government channels told us: that there were apparently discussions with that this set of values is incompatible with modern the various countries that recognise the Queen as their Britain? Before he asks whether I did the same when I Monarch. Can he tell us when the last meeting of was in government, the answer is yes. those countries was and when the next meeting is going to be, and perhaps give us a gentle glimpse of Lord McNally: In response to the noble Lord’s the agenda? introductory remarks, I say that that makes two of us. I also appreciate that some of these matters perhaps Lord McNally: I never cease to be amazed at the cause greater problems in Scotland than elsewhere. I penetrating way in which the Opposition demand have said, and I think that it is accepted, that there are action this day on matters it sat on for 13 years. I have discussions with the Commonwealth countries. We are told the noble Lord that the discussions I referred to conscious that there are anachronisms in the Act, but have not ended; they are ongoing. I shall consult the we still advise the House of the wisdom of proceeding New Zealand Government, and if they are in a position with caution. to let me have that information I shall write to the noble Lord. Schools: League Tables Lord St John of Fawsley: Perhaps I may ask noble Lords whether they agree that in principle one must Question support what the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, said, and that one must favour equality for women. As Disraeli 3.18 pm said, “I owe everything to women”. I hope that they Asked by Baroness Williams of Crosby will remember that at the Garrick. Heaping a coal scuttle of fire on the head of the right reverend Prelate, To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they I say that I hope that we can have an assurance from will consider omitting from school league tables the Government that they have no intention of excluding children on free school meals or statemented as or reducing the representation in this House of the having special educational needs. Bishops of the Church of England, because it is the national church of the country and that would send The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for entirely the wrong signal from this House. Schools (Lord Hill of Oareford): My Lords, the Government are committed to giving parents more Lord McNally: That is a matter for another day and information rather than less. We want to raise the another debate. I will settle on the statement made by attainment of the most disadvantaged and lowest Cardinal Cormac Murphy-O’Connor, who said that attaining pupils, and to report on how schools do in the Act of Settlement was, narrowing the attainment gap. We will also support “discriminatory. I think it will disappear, but I don’t want to such children through the introduction of the pupil cause a great fuss”. premium, which will be targeted at those on free school meals, many of whom will also have special Lord Elystan-Morgan: My Lords, is it not the case educational needs. that Section 1 of the Act of Settlement 1701 does not specifically proscribe any member of the Catholic Baroness Williams of Crosby: I thank the Minister faith from succeeding to the Crown? Rather, the wording for his reply and note that the Secretary of State for is that the Crown shall devolve upon: Education has recently decided that the judgments in “The most excellent Princess Sophia Electress”— league tables on the passage through GCSE for five who was the mother of George I— subjects is to be tightened up, to ensure that schools “and the heirs of her body”. choose not the softest subjects but rather the crucial The words “being Protestant” were then added. subjects for their children to take. I commend him on that. However, given that schools will be judged on Lord McNally: I will not start debating, discussing their work with not just the highest flyers but children or challenging the noble Lord’s interpretation of Section 1 with the greatest need, I wonder whether it would be of the Act of Settlement 1701. I believe him. wise in the league tables to exclude children with special educational needs from the attempt to measure Lord Reid of Cardowan: My Lords, perhaps I should schools comparatively, and to include a list or proportion declare an interest as someone who was born and of the number of specially educationally disadvantaged baptised a Roman Catholic. However, noble Lords children at a school to ensure that head teachers and will be gratified to know that I have no ambitions at others do not attempt to escape from their responsibilities. present to succeed to the Throne. Does the Minister not recognise that it is not only an offensive but an Lord Hill of Oareford: First, I think everyone in this anachronistic symbol of division, discrimination and House agrees on the need to try to narrow the attainment inequality in an age when we are trying to inculcate gap. The previous Government did quite a lot of work the opposite in every other aspect of society? If it were in that regard, which I am happy to recognise. I sufficient grounds for retaining a law that it had been recognise the challenge that schools have with special around for 300 years, we would still be hanging people educational needs but, by the same token, many who 1173 Schools: League Tables[10 JANUARY 2011] Parliamentary Voting System 1174 know far more than I do about the issue would not Budget Responsibility and National Audit want to take the step of excluding children with special Bill [HL] educational needs from measurement or being treated in the same way as other pupils in the school. More Order of Consideration Motion generally, it is important to publish more information about a school’s performance. My noble friend is 3.24 pm absolutely right that we need to hold those schools to Moved by Lord Sassoon account for their performance and we think that that is best done by publishing more rather than less That the amendments for the Report stage be information. marshalled and considered in the following order: Clauses 1 to 3, Schedule 1, Clauses 4 to 20, Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton: Is the Minister Schedule 2, Clauses 21 and 22, Schedule 3, Clauses 23 aware, as I am sure he is, that when the noble Baroness, to 26, Schedules 4 and 5, Clause 27, Schedule 6, Lady Warnock, produced her report, she referred to Clauses 28 to 31. children who needed statements with special educational Motion agreed. needs as being approximately 2 to 2.5 per cent of the 20 per cent of children who are not statemented, and should not be, but who have special needs? Is he also Parliamentary Voting System and aware that many of those are concentrated in schools Constituencies Bill that have a welcoming atmosphere, and that take on Committee (7th Day) board children with special needs at the risk of those special needs interfering with their attainment? Surely— 3.25 pm this applies to all Governments—the ideal is to measure the value added by individual schools rather than merely looking at the attainment. Amendment 54ZA Moved by Lord Wills Lord Hill of Oareford: I accept fully the force of 54ZA: Before Clause 10, insert the following new Clause— that point, and one of the changes that we are keen to “Committee of Inquiry on Parliamentary constituencies make with our new floor standards is to measure both (1) There shall be a Committee of Inquiry, chaired by a High attainment and progression. The previous floor standards Court judge, comprising members of both Houses of Parliament, had only an attainment measure and we are planning including representatives of the principal political parties in the to introduce a progression measure. I accept the force House of Commons, as well as individuals with no party attachment, and others. of that entirely. To go back to the previous point, it is clear that children come in all shapes and sizes, and (2) The Committee of Inquiry shall— one needs to try to have measures that reflect what a (a) review the current rules for conducting Parliamentary boundary reviews (contained in Schedule 2 to the school does to bring out the best in those children, Parliamentary Constituencies Act 1986) considering in regardless of where they start from. particular— (i) how to address the inequality of constituency sizes; Baroness Oppenheim-Barnes: Is my noble friend (ii) how to stabilise the size of the House of Commons; aware that many years ago I worked for the Inner (iii) the relative importance of electoral equality against London Education Authority in Hackney, dealing the specific character of individual constituencies, only with children receiving free meals? There was by including the rules relating to geographical no means any link between the fact that they received considerations, local ties and ‘inconveniences’, and free school meals and their educational ability, and it the rules on crossing borough and county boundaries; would be a great mistake to use that as a divining rod and of what the results should be. (iv) make recommendations; (b) examine in this context the question of the optimum size Lord Hill of Oareford: I agree with that point. On of a constituency taking into account the need to the back of the Question I looked at precisely that maintain the Union, the proper role of MPs in their constituencies and in Parliament, and the implications area, to try to correlate schools with the number of for these roles of the responsibilities of other free-school-meal pupils and the results. A quick look representative bodies including local authorities and the bore out the point made by my noble friend. Mossbourne House of Lords, and make recommendations; Academy has 54 per cent of its pupils on free school (c) consider the implications of an optimum size for the meals and 72 per cent of those pupils get five A to Cs House of Commons for an optimum size for the House including English, maths and science. of Lords, and make recommendations; (d) review the time taken to conduct boundary reviews, particularly in England, and make recommendations; Arrangement of Business (e) review the alignment between the timing of local and Announcement parliamentary boundary reviews to ensure that stable local government electoral boundaries can form the basis 3.24 pm for each parliamentary review, and make recommendations; (f) examine the question of a role for keeping the operation Baroness Anelay of St Johns: My Lords, at a convenient of the rules under review and ensuring consistency point after 4 pm my noble friend Lord Howe will of approach by the four Parliamentary Boundary repeat a Statement on the review of support for those Commissions, including monitoring their standards of infected by blood and blood products. performance, and make recommendations; and 1175 Parliamentary Voting System[LORDS] Parliamentary Voting System 1176

[LORD WILLS] The royal commission is a tried and tested mechanism (g) examine the arguments surrounding the statistical basis for addressing such important, complex and contentious on which electoral areas are currently constructed, in issues. It has worked well in the past and is generally particular whether the eligible population rather than accepted as a fair mechanism for dealing with such electoral statistics should be used, and make recommendations. contested issues. Its composition would be for the Government to decide, but it should include Members (3) The Committee of Inquiry established under subsection (1) shall report to Parliament annually on its progress, and deliver a of both Houses of Parliament, including representatives final report with recommendations to the Secretary of State of the principal parties in the House of Commons, as within three years of the passing of this Act. those with most direct experience of such issues, as (4) Within 6 months of the Committee of Inquiry’s report the well as individuals with no party attachment, and Secretary of State shall lay before Parliament, for Parliament’s others. consideration, a scheme including draft Bills to implement the It would be for the Government to decide the recommendations of the Committee of Inquiry.” process of such a committee of inquiry, but I draw Lord Wills: My Lords— Ministers’ attention to the Liberal Democrat conference resolution of 2008, which pledged to set up a constitutional The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord assembly or citizens’ summit as a deliberative mechanism Strathclyde): My Lords, perhaps noble Lords would for the people of this country to pronounce on precisely leave as quietly and as quickly as possible, so that we such important issues as this. I am profoundly sorry can all hear the noble Lord introduce his amendment. that the Government have not followed the Lord Wills: I am very grateful to the noble Lord for recommendation of that Liberal Democrat conference his courtesy. of 2008. It may be that they will now seize on this Rather curiously for this House, I support the Bill’s amendment as an opportunity to do so. They could objectives. I support a referendum on the alternative even vote with us on this. vote system and I support any attempt to make the The remit for the commission would include process of boundary revisions fairer and more efficient. consideration of how best to equalise constituencies, Who could possibly be against any reasonable attempt particularly taking into account all those issues of to cut the cost of politics? However, as I and many local identity and character about which such widespread other noble Lords have already argued, there are concerns were expressed at Second Reading, which I profound flaws in how the Bill proposes to achieve think all Members of this House have had expressed those objectives. The amendment is designed to remedy to them in correspondence since Second Reading. The some of the worst of those flaws in Part 2. It is amendment proposes that the commission examine lengthier than I would have wished, because it sets out the optimum size for a constituency. This is a crucial to provide a comprehensive solution to those problems, consideration in creating a principled approach to the but I would be happy to withdraw it if the Government equalisation of constituencies. I am not against equalising could give an assurance today that they will find a constituencies, but I want to see it being done according better way to secure such a solution. to a fair, impartial and principled process. At the heart of Part 2 lie assumptions about the What is the appropriate relationship between a optimum size of the House of Commons, the optimum Member of Parliament and their constituency and size of a parliamentary constituency and the process what size of constituency best sustains that relationship? of altering constituency boundaries. Those issues are The United States, with a population approximately central to the machinery of our democracy, yet the six times that of the United Kingdom, has 435 Members Government have conceded that the assumptions that of the House of Representatives and 100 Members of they have made are arbitrary. They are not subject to the Senate. A proportionate adjustment for the United any governing principle and they have not been subject Kingdom would result in a House of Commons of to adequate consultation and scrutiny by the people around 90 MPs. whom they are meant to serve. Those issues are all the subject of vigorous debate. 3.30 pm Our electoral arrangements should never become Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: Would my noble friend the subject of partisan dispute, as that corrodes public not accept that the United States has a federal system trust and undermines the foundations of our democracy. so that every state has its own Senate, House of Therefore, for many years, all political parties have Representatives and governor and within each state sought consensus on such issues and, for the most there are county legislatures? Therefore, the system is part, they have succeeded in finding it. The Bill is a very different from that in the United Kingdom. deplorable exception to that good practice, to which the amendment attempts to return. The amendment would not substitute my judgment for that of the Lord Wills: Of course I accept that. I was about to Government in addressing these issues. Instead, it sets make very similar points in my remarks. What my up a process for an independent, fair and principled noble friend has so accurately pointed out is that this set of judgments to be made. In doing so, it is intended is a subject for debate. He has made a very good point. to restore faith in the impartiality of the process for This is precisely the sort of issue that should have been changing our electoral arrangements by requiring the debated before the Government brought forward this Government to set up a committee of inquiry, such as legislation. What is the best size for a constituency in a royal commission, to investigate and make this country? I will come to the other constitutional recommendations on all those key and contentious changes that might affect this in a moment, but of issues. course my noble friend is right. 1177 Parliamentary Voting System[10 JANUARY 2011] Parliamentary Voting System 1178

If 90 is not an appropriate size for the membership A noble Lord: Speak to the House. Face forward. of the House of Commons, why not? The Government have given us no clue. Surely, as I was saying, before Lord Campbell-Savours: I am sorry. Perhaps my embarking on such radical reform we need to seek noble friend would set out what work was carried out. agreement as far as possible between all political parties It would help us, in moving our amendments, if we in this country on what principles should determine knew of his experiences. the size of the constituency and hence the size of the House of Commons. In arriving at such principles, any review must take Lord Wills: I am very grateful to my noble friend. account of the other impending changes in our As he said, the previous Government—I was the Minister constitutional arrangements such as the increasing responsible for this—did a lot of work on how we decentralisation of power to local authorities. All could more fairly ensure that everyone entitled to be parties agree on the need for this. There are measures on the electoral register was on it. We brought forward already coming forward from the Government. We legislation putting a duty on the Electoral Commission need to look at the impact of those measures on the to bring forward such measures. That is another reason optimum size of a constituency, but the Government why I am in such despair that the Government are have not done so. We also need to look at the implications rushing ahead on the basis of such a flawed electoral for the size of the constituency and the relationship register. If only they had had a little patience and had between the Member of Parliament and their constituents waited just a few months longer. There was every of the impending reforms to this Chamber. Many chance that the Electoral Commission’s work would Members will oppose such reforms, but the Government produce a significantly improved register, which might want to bring them forward and they owe it to the even have been comprehensive and accurate, as it British people to have a proper discussion about the should be. implications of such changes on the optimum size of a These issues now need to be debated. They are constituency. What will be the implications for the issues not just for this House or for the other place; nature and role of the Member of Parliament? We they are issues for the British people, who have had no have had no such discussion, and this amendment say in this fundamental building block of their democracy. offers the opportunity to have it. I think that it would This amendment offers the opportunity to the be very valuable for the health of our democracy for Government to give the British people that say in these that to happen. arrangements. I very much hope that they will take it. The commission would also need to take account of I have also included provision—I think that everyone the principle that has been followed by all parties that will agree with this—for boundary reviews to be timely. believe in the value of the union of differential protections I do not think that there should be any dispute about that. for the minority nations of the United Kingdom. This Finally—I know that this will be of concern to the is a crucial point for all those who believe in the value Government—there is the question of a timetable. I of maintaining the union. The nature of the union has had some sympathy with the noble Lord, Lord McNally, changed dramatically since the Labour Government when he said at Second Reading that the time had brought forward measures of devolution, and that almost come for constitutional reformers just to get relationship is continuing to evolve. There is no evidence on with it. I hope that I am not quoting him inaccurately. whatsoever in the Bill that the Government have Of course, anyone who wants to see constitutional appreciated this or recognised its significance. This reform must beware delay, which is always the enemy amendment gives them a chance to look at the implications of truly radical reform. I recognise that cynical members of the changing nature of the devolved constitutional of the Government—I am sure that noble Lords on arrangements of this country on the proposals in this the Front Bench are not so cynical—may regard this Bill. proposal for a committee as nothing more than a The statistical basis on which the size of constituencies device to push all these issues into the long grass. That is equalised is also crucial. It is bad enough that the is not my intention. As I said at the beginning of my Government are seeking to conduct a wholesale boundary remarks, I support the objectives of this Bill. review on the basis of an electoral register that is My amendment does not leave this process open-ended, neither comprehensive nor accurate. It is deplorable but specifies a timescale. In my judgment—I did that they appear to be doing this in the pursuit of considerable work on these issues when I was the partisan advantage. It is perhaps even worse that this Minister responsible in the previous Government—three fundamental redrawing of the electoral map should be years is an appropriate timescale in which to explore done in such an arbitrary way, leaving key questions all these issues with appropriate rigour, to hear evidence not even raised, let alone answered. How far, for from all concerned parties, including members of the example, should the electoral register be the basis for public, and to produce recommendations that can such equalisation? How far should population be the command popular support. basis? These are clearly issues that any committee More generally, this is a typical timeframe for a would need to consider, so they are included in the royal commission. The average time to report for the amendment. past 10 royal commissions has been slightly less than three years. This is a reasonable amount of time to Lord Campbell-Savours: This matter has taxed many give the committee to report. But I have added further of us over a long period. I understand that when my comfort in this amendment to those who might be noble friend was the Minister responsible he did some concerned about undue delay. The amendment includes work in the department on the use of population— provision for the commission to report annually to 1179 Parliamentary Voting System[LORDS] Parliamentary Voting System 1180

[LORD WILLS] Also, the concept of a reduction in the number of Parliament on its progress, so that Parliament may seats is not altogether alien to me; indeed, it has never have regular opportunities to contribute to the continuing been a great problem for me. The question is the deliberations of the commission. The Government process by which we arrive at that. will always have the option to take steps to ensure a I believe that my noble friend’s amendment is critical speedier dispatch of this work should they think that for securing proper consideration. As he said, it was that is necessary, which I very much hope that they the subject of a resolution carried at the Liberal will not. Democrat conference. Both the noble Lords, Lord This amendment is detailed and complex because Rennard and Lord Tyler, are in their places today and the issues covered are detailed and complex. They are I hope and expect them to have the courage to argue also vital to the health of our democracy. I hope that on the back of this amendment the case that was the Government may feel able to accept the amendment, argued forcefully at their annual conference basically if not in this exact formulation then at least in one in support of the principles that my noble friend is perhaps better drafted to achieve the same objectives. seeking to establish. Whatever view is taken of the merits of the objectives of Part 1 of the Bill, no independent observer could 3.45 pm consider Part 2 to be anything other than at best Lord Lipsey: My Lords, with this clause, we reach botched legislation and at worst a partisan attack on Part 2, which is a more technical part of the Bill— fundamental constitutional proprieties. Such profoundly flawed legislation is unlikely to endure and I just say to Lord Campbell-Savours: My Lords— Ministers opposite that history is not likely to look fondly on its perpetrators. Lord Lipsey: I am sorry. I thought that the noble The amendment offers the Government a chance to Lord had resumed his seat. find a way out of the swamp into which they have waded with little care or consideration. It gets them to Lord Campbell-Savours: I thought that I was taking the place that they say that they want to be with a an intervention. I hope that the noble Lord will forgive delay of only a few months to allow for independent me. The Government will not get off that lightly. examination and the engagement of the public in The Government should be reminded of the relevant issues of great importance to our democracy, which, sections in the very well written report of the House of after all, is meant to serve the public, not the interests Lords Constitution Committee on the Parliamentary of the Government of the day. It would enable this Voting System and Constituencies Bill. I understand legislation to proceed on the basis of constitutional that the report’s recommendations were carried principle not on that of arbitrary and partisan calculation. unanimously by the membership of that committee. I beg to move. All parties subscribed to the principles set out in paragraph 11, which states: Lord Campbell-Savours: My Lords, I had not planned “We regret the fact that this Bill has not been subject to either to speak this early, but I may as well intervene to pre-legislative scrutiny, or to prior public consultation”. support my noble friend in his amendment. I begin by That is to say, Liberal Democrat and Conservative commenting on my reflections over the Christmas Peers all support that statement. Recess on how I see the progress on this Bill. My The report continues: comments stem from conversations with Members of “We conclude that the Government have not calculated the the other place, some of whom spoke on the Bill proposed reduction in the size of the House of Commons on the during its transit through that House. The conclusion basis of any considered assessment of the role and functions that we have all come to is that the way in which this of MPs”. legislation is being handled is a clear breach of any My noble friend’s proposed inquiry would do precisely reasonable process. The noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, that. It is fair to ask the question: why 600? Why not looks as if I am saying something that causes him 590? Why not 500, as my noble friend Lord Rooker some anguish, but the reality is that this is a constitutional has suggested? Why not 550? Why not 700 or 800? All Bill in its two principal components. AV, which is a the coalition Government have done is pick figures huge change to the electoral system with massive out of the air and say, “Yes, the Liberal Democrats constitutional implications, and the change to constituency want 500; the Conservatives want 600. Let’s settle on boundaries are big constitutional issues that in both that figure”. That is not the basis on which the size of cases require, in my view, a proper inquiry before this what is perhaps the most important Parliament in the legislation goes through Parliament. world should be decided. The reality is that, because of our arrangements in We then have to consider the whole issue of Lords the House of Lords, at least we are able to give the Bill reform. Until we know what the arrangements for an some level of scrutiny, but I do not believe that the elected House will be, how can we even begin to level of scrutiny that we can give it satisfies in any way comprehend the nature of the relationship that will the gravity, importance and significance of the legislation develop between individual constituents—because there that the Government are seeking to introduce. I am may well be individual constituents—and Members of saying all this as a strong supporter of a change to the an elected House of Lords, and the extent to which electoral system. Indeed, I would probably go down that will impact on how many MPs there should be in the route of the Liberal Democrats on this matter if the House of Commons? That matter has not even only they would be honest in the position that they entered into the discussions that have taken place took as against supporting this miserable little compromise. prior to the introduction of this legislation. 1181 Parliamentary Voting System[10 JANUARY 2011] Parliamentary Voting System 1182

There is also the whole question of population, on Accuracy of Electoral Registers in Great Britain? Not which I intervened during my noble friend’s speech. I only are there that number missing from the electoral have pondered over the Christmas Recess on why register, they are not missing in a proportionate way. population should not be taken into account when, There are areas where there are numbers missing particularly in the inner cities, many of the people who disproportionately and Glasgow particularly comes to come to MPs’ surgeries would be excluded from the mind. With an average in Scotland of 92.1 per cent electoral register. I cannot see why those groups who completeness, Glasgow is only 67.8 per cent complete. are excluded should not be taken into account when one is deciding the workload of a Member of Parliament Lord Campbell-Savours: I have not read that report and the size of any constituency. although it is on my reading list. There are a number of reports I have to read next weekend in preparation Lord Martin of Springburn: The noble Lord makes for the debates that will take place next week. a valid point about people who are not on the electoral The point is that this is not the peg on which to roll. I think of my previous constituency of Glasgow argue the basis on which people register. My noble North East, to which the Home Office decided that a friend’s amendment simply says, “Let us have an inquiry large number of asylum seekers would come. Not one that does precisely that”. He is saying, “Let someone, of them, with the problems that they had, was turned somewhere, do some homework on this whole area away. Moreover, almost every asylum seeker had a before Parliament is required to carry any particular lawyer who would also make representation to me as piece of legislation”. That is my case. the local MP. It got to the stage where 90 per cent of the cases coming to surgeries were those of asylum Lord Wills: My noble friend has made an important seekers. Only those who were Commonwealth citizens point about the importance of considering population. as well as being asylum seekers were entitled to go on But does he agree that this emphasises yet again the to the voters’ roll. folly of rushing this? In a short space of time we will have the results of the 2011 census—probably around Lord Campbell-Savours: That intervention by my 2013 or 2014. It is absolutely crucial in deciding the noble friend is extremely significant. That matter has validity of going forward on a population basis, but not been taken into account by the Government. I also in ascertaining just how under-registered the British know that there were problems in Glasgow, because I people are. What is the degree of under-registration in have been reading about them. There was a huge different constituencies and different population groups campaign that was referred to a few weeks ago by my throughout the country? Does this not prove the folly noble friend Lord Foulkes of Cumnock to deal with of rushing ahead like this? the whole issue of registration, which threw up the particular problem to which my noble friend referred. Indeed, the Democratic Audit paper on further findings Lord Campbell-Savours: I could not agree more on equalisation, which no doubt most Members of the with my noble friend. If we are going to have a House will either have read or will want to read prior five-year Parliament, why cannot those data be used? to our debates in the future, deals precisely with this It would still leave the opportunity for legislation to be issue of population, Mr Lewis Baston says: introduced to deal with this whole issue. Why, in other words, on the back of a whipped vote on the coalition “Approximately half of the countries that delimit districts use Benches, is this measure being driven through this “total population” as the population base for determining equality across electoral districts. Another third of the countries employ House when we all know it is an abuse of process and registered voters as the population base” wrong in every possible way? Several European countries use citizen population as the relevant base for determining population equality. Lord Beecham: My Lords, I, too, endorse the Lesotho uses the voting age population as the base amendment moved by my noble friend Lord Wills and and Belarus uses the number of voters in the previous follow some lines of argument developed by my noble election, although that would not be particularly helpful friend Lord Campbell-Savours. Lord Randolph Churchill here, would it? described Gladstone—presumably still something of The facts are that countries can use census material an inspiration to at least some noble Lords opposite— and population statistics as against registered electors, as an, particularly when we know that the registered electorate “old man in a hurry”. as far as the purposes of this Bill are concerned, are This Bill and other pieces of legislation we are seeing based on a register that is effectively out of date and are redolent of a Government of young men in a which excludes, as my noble and learned friend Lord hurry. That hurry is palpable and inexcusable. I would Falconer of Thoroton was saying only a few weeks not accuse the noble Lords, Lord McNally and Lord ago, some 3.5 million people. Some 3.5 million people Wallace of Saltaire, of being young men—in a hurry are excluded from the register. Why cannot the great or in any other sense—but the hurry is certainly still proportion of those be included on a register by there. changing the basis on which the register is drawn by A reference has been made to the interesting report moving it over to a more population-based system? of the Select Committee on the Constitution—a most distinguished body, as my noble friend Lord Campbell- Lord Knight of Weymouth: Has my noble friend Savours remarked. There are some additional matters seen the Electoral Commission’s excellent report published on top of those to which he referred, but first, following in March this year entitled The Completeness and the valid point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Martin, 1183 Parliamentary Voting System[LORDS] Parliamentary Voting System 1184

[LORD BEECHAM] It is most important that, particularly when dealing about asylum seekers, another point has been overlooked. with sensitive areas of locality, these issues are properly Within towns and cities, and across the country, EU argued out in public. Written submissions will not, I citizens resident in this country and entitled to vote in believe, have that effect. the local elections—though not parliamentary elections— are also outside the compass of this proposal to determine 4pm the size of constituencies. They have a vote and are We already have experience of some rather difficult undoubtedly contributing to council tax and the rest in hybrid constituencies. For many years, I have represented this country, which might be thought a material factor. a ward that was at one time in the constituency of The report also concludes in paragraph 29 that, Newcastle Central and then became part of a constituency called Tyne Bridge, which included part of Newcastle “the Government have not calculated the proposed reduction in the size of the House of Commons on the basis of any considered and part of Gateshead and was divided only by the assessment of the role and functions of MPs” River Tyne. I have occasionally likened Newcastle and That matter was touched on by my noble friend Lord Gateshead—of which my noble and learned friend Campbell-Savours. The committee concluded that the Lord Falconer of Thoroton has intimate knowledge, Government, as chairman of a concern that tries to unite the two areas in promoting their economic interest—to the “have not made a proper assessment of the impact which the reduction in the size of the House of Commons may have on the city of Budapest, which also comprises two quite relationship between the executive and Parliament”. separate places brought together, although I hesitate That is also a significant point. The committee was to indicate which might be Buda and which might be not persuaded that the reduction—essentially to be Pest. Nevertheless, even in an area as compact as made among Back-Bench Members in another place— Newcastle and Gateshead, there is a distinct feeling of would necessarily be adverse to the balance but the difference, so the Tyne Bridge constituency was never matter does not seem to have been considered at all a happy compromise. Most of us, on both sides of the and it was, river, are glad that our respective constituencies are now confined to areas on either side. Such significant “concerned that the Bill could possibly result in the Executive’s local issues would be even more salient, as many of dominance over Parliament being increased”. your Lordships will know from the many e-mails and On the timing of the boundary review, the committee letters received, in areas such as Cornwall and the Isle observed that, of Wight. However, all of that appears to have been “additional resources will be required, particularly for the first dismissed. such review”. The Constitution Committee’s report also states, What estimate has been made of the additional resources “we believe that a number of concerns, particularly with Part 2 of required if and when this Bill goes through, in particular the Bill, have not been properly addressed by the Government”, for that first review? The committee shared the concern but it does not look like the Government have much of the Political and Constitutional Reform Committee intention of giving them that further consideration. that it was, Indeed, it is sad that a committee of the distinction “not clear whether political parties have the necessary resources and weight of the Select Committee on the Constitution and resilience at a local level to adapt successfully within this should have to conclude: timeframe to contesting new constituencies”. “We are concerned that the constitutional relationship between The report goes on to say that, the provisions of this Bill and the Government’s other proposals for constitutional reform have not been adequately thought through. “the Government should set out how they propose to meet the … The Government should set out how they consider that this need for parties, candidates and electors to know the shape of Bill and its place within their programme of constitutional reform their constituencies a sufficient length of time in advance of each makes the political system ‘more transparent and accountable.’” general election”. To that I would add that the Government should also One of the Ministers giving evidence to the committee set out how the Bill will make the political system rather dismissed that issue but it is significant for those more comprehensible to the public, whom the of us on the ground. Government are here to serve, who must be encouraged On the crucially important question of equalisation, to participate more fully in the democratic process. the committee affirmed that, My final point is on the continuing problem with “pre-legislative scrutiny and public consultation would have enabled electoral registration. Levels of registrations are very a better assessment of whether the new rules as to equalisation variable up and down the country, as noble Lords have are overly rigid”. mentioned. Given the requirement for individual voter What does the Minister make of that judgment? registration that will eventually come into force, it On public participation, I mentioned in a previous seems likely that the existing problem will become debate that I had been engaged—on one occasion worse rather than better. I ask the Minister what professionally and on another in a political capacity—in resources will be devoted to ensure that the maximum giving evidence at local public inquiries about both effort is made to have as full a register as possible. ward and parliamentary boundaries. The Bill in effect What methods might be used to promote registration? proposes to end the system of public inquiries of that For example, will data sharing and the like be promoted, kind and to rely on written evidence. The crucial and would that be compatible with the individual difference between written evidence and a public inquiry registration that will be required in due course? is that the evidence cannot be tested by those with a There is certainly scope for improvement in our contrary view—whether they be a different political electoral system, but that is not likely to be achieved if party, an individual citizen or any other interest group. legislation is rushed. Like many noble Lords—on, I 1185 Parliamentary Voting System[10 JANUARY 2011] Parliamentary Voting System 1186 suspect, all sides of the House—I hope that the longer than this one has taken. We have got through Government will think again about the process roughly half the Bill—through Part 1—in six days in and look sympathetically on the very constructive Committee. If the next period in Committee takes six Amendment 54ZA, which has been moved by my days as well, it will still be impossible to meet the noble friend Lord Wills. deadline of 15 February. That is not filibustering—that is the minimum required scrutiny. In fact, I would regard that as far too slight a scrutiny of a Bill of this Lord Grocott: My Lords, I am slightly hesitant in importance to enable us to say that it has been considered rising to speak to the amendment because I had hoped properly by this House. that we might hear a contribution from the other side of the House. No one could argue—perhaps the noble I must confess to being politically naïve. When I and learned Lord, Lord Wallace of Tankerness, could heard that the Conservative Party was suggesting that respond to this point—that the issues that we are there should be a reduction in the number of MPs, I discussing today are not of profound constitutional did not like it, but I was relatively relaxed about it significance. The provisions in the Bill will alter the because I knew that there would be plenty of time for relationship between MPs and their constituents, discussion. I knew that you could not hurry Boundary the overall number of MPs and the ways in which the Commissions. I knew that the last Boundary Commission public can be involved in determining the electoral for England took six years, so I thought, “Well, at areas from which they will send their representatives least I will have plenty of time to discuss whether this to Westminster. If those issues are not of profound is a good or a bad proposal”. It honestly did not occur constitutional consequence, I do not know what issues are. to me for a moment that they would be scrapping the I must also say—if I may get my retaliation in whole system of democratically accountable local first—that I really find it offensive to hear continual inquiries—it just did not cross my mind that they references to filibusters taking place when discussions would do that. Nor did it cross my mind that they of this significance are before the House. In fact, I would want to spend £12 million or so having a rushed would say that there is negligence on the part of Boundary Commission report—which is what the last groups, parties and individuals who do not make a full Boundary Commission for England cost—when they contribution to this debate. No one could possibly keep telling us that every penny has to be saved. argue that there was a full debate in the House of As for the Liberal Democrats, it did not occur to Commons. I remind the noble and learned Lord, Lord me in my wildest dreams that they would say, “The Wallace—it is convenient that he is in his place—that thing we must do first in this new Parliament is to it was his leader who described these changes as the ensure that by 5 May we are asking the people whether most profound since the Great Reform Bill of 1832. I they want the alternative vote system of proportional have not had access to those debates, but if they really representation”. We know what the Liberal Democrats consisted of only one party having anything whatever think about that system—I will not embarrass them to say about those proposals, and if those proposals by quoting their leader yet again; I think we all know were shovelled through both Houses in next to no the answer to that one—but for them it is a temporary, time—this is a timetable that I have never seen before— short-term arrangement so that they can move on in then I would be very surprised indeed. It is our duty to due course to full proportional representation. examine these issues. They are of profound significance. As for my noble friend’s amendment, although I I say to the Government that if they are wondering would guess that he and I disagree on a huge range of why the Bill is taking a long time, as they seem to issues connected with constitutional reform, I regard suggest, they should look at the issues raised in my this as a masterly amendment. I defy anyone in this noble friend’s amendment. They should give us some House to explain in detail why this is the wrong way to sensible answers to the questions about why there go about major constitutional reform. I hope that the cannot be a commission, and about the relationship noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, when he sums between the two Houses. Here we have a Government up, will not read out what I would guess his briefing who are reducing the number of Members of Parliament notes suggest—that this legislation must be passed by by 50 but, let us get this on the record, since the 15 February in order for there to be enough time to general election the number of new Members appointed hold the referendum on 5 May. That is not a reason for to this House—many of whom I am delighted to see rushing through major constitutional reforms, so I here; I am not complaining about them—is 117 so far. hope that he does not say that. I remind the House that this is what the Deputy Prime Minister has described as a hugely important series of I hope that the noble and learned Lord also does constitutional Bills that are all interrelated, and that not say that there has already been excessive consideration great brains have been operating on them in order to of the Bill. This Bill—a huge Bill, a constitutional show the nuance of the balance between the various Bill—has so far had six days in Committee on the pieces of legislation that are being brought forward. If Floor of the House. I would ask him to look through there is any rational overview that allows simultaneously the record of the previous Government, or of any 50 fewer MPs and 117 additional appointed Members other Government, to see the amount of time that was of the House of Lords, please could the noble and taken on Bills of far less significance. That is not to say learned Lord, Lord Wallace, explain to me what it is? that those Bills were not important—they were—but they had far less long-term, irreparable and unchangeable I have a final plea but it is one not made in hope, or significance than this one. If you are changing the indeed in expectation. Maybe just once, in response to constitution, it is very difficult to change it back. The one of the amendments from this side of the House, noble and learned Lord will find several Bills that took the Government could do what most Governments do 1187 Parliamentary Voting System[LORDS] Parliamentary Voting System 1188

[LORD GROCOTT] inferiors, the country at large might be alerted to the from the Front Bench—many of us have been there—and coalition Government’s outrageous behaviour and their say, “Look, we don’t really like the form of this attempts to rig both Houses of Parliament under these amendment”, but at least acknowledge that there is proceedings. some really powerful argument or justification for the points that we are making. At least they could say, 4.15 pm “We’ll look at some of it, and we’ll bring some proposals Like my noble friend Lord Grocott, I find myself in back on Report”. I ask the Government not to regard many of these arguments on the opposite side to my this botched Bill as an impregnable piece of perfect noble friend Lord Wills, who moved the amendment. legislation that should not be subject to any change. However, it is an important and comprehensive It will be a test for the Government to see how they amendment to which I hope the Front Bench opposite respond to a totally justified and well argued amendment, will give due and proper consideration. My noble supported by people on very different sides regarding friend’s amendment should certainly be considered in electoral reform and the future of the House of Lords; so far as it mentions local ties in relation to future my noble friend Lord Wills and I are certainly on constituency boundaries. different sides. Let us hope for something better from Those of us who are old enough to remember the the government Front Bench than we have had on any Local Government Act 1972 will be aware of the amendment so far. dismay which was caused throughout the country by some of the boundaries of the then new local authorities. Lord Snape: My Lords, I follow my noble friend Indeed, in West Bromwich East, the constituency which Lord Grocott’s earlier remarks about the debates that I had the honour to represent in the other place for we have had so far on this enormous piece of legislation. 27 years, many people were never reconciled to the For the same reasons as my noble friend, I feel strongly new borough of Sandwell, which was created by the about much of its content. Like him—perhaps I could 1972 Act. After nearly 30 years many people looked put this slightly stronger than he did—I deplore the blank when that name was mentioned. Yet here we lack of speeches from the Benches opposite. Indeed, have a Bill that proposes that constituency boundaries having attended every day of the Committee so far, I should be drawn up while paying no attention to local have to say that this is the largest attendance that I sentiment or action. Imagine, again from the point of have seen from the Conservative Party. The flesh might view of my former constituency, a constituency that be present, though, but the spirit is pretty weak; we are embraced West Bromwich East and West and Walsall. still not seeing any contributions of either support or There is no great love between those two areas; they opposition from the Conservative Benches. have their own football teams, structures and local The Conservatives are slightly shamed by their authorities. They do not love each other. However, coalition partners who are here in strength, although under these proposals, someone will have to try to we are not hearing a great deal from them either, other represent such a constituency. than expressions of cynicism and impatience from one I look at the party opposite and one or two of the or two of them so far. It is regrettable that they cannot Conservative Benches. I see that the noble Lord, Lord bring themselves to put some coherent arguments Fowler, who is as diligent as ever in these matters, is in together in support of this enormous and extremely his place. Imagine what would happen in Sutton important piece of legislation. Coldfield—his former constituency, which he represented My noble friend Lord Grocott mentioned the fact with such distinction—if it were put next to somewhere that there are accusations—this has not so far been like West Bromwich, for example. The uproar would said publicly, but there have been attempts to give this be enormous. Reconciling the respective populations impression—that there is somehow some sort of filibuster to it would be extraordinarily difficult, but these are taking place on the Labour Benches. I was contacted the proposals that we are asked to approve in your during the Christmas Recess by someone purporting Lordships’ House. This is the direction in which the to be from the Sunday Times, not a newspaper that I Bill intends to take democratic matters in the years to am overly fond of these days. I understand that come. investigations were taking place into the contents of The noble Lord, Lord Baker, who is not in his place some of the speeches on this legislation from this side today, wrote a piece in the Times some weeks ago, to of your Lordships’ House. Nothing has appeared in which I have referred previously, in great support of the Sunday Times yet because, I fear, when the reporter the Bill. He said—I paraphrase—that the important concerned put this story together, as reporters do, they thing in the Bill was to ensure that constituencies were managed to give the impression that what had been of about the same numerical strength, taking one with happening so far was that the Labour Benches had another. He felt that the present imbalance in been doing the job for which they were appointed to constituencies—the fact that some inner city constituencies, this House and the Benches opposite had not. That largely represented in the other place by the Labour would not for a moment satisfy the editorial tendencies Party, were smaller—was unfair. In his eyes the only of the Sunday Times, so it is no wonder that we have way forward was to equalise constituencies numerically, seen no more. However, the constitutional outrages in although he conceded that there would be some electoral the Bill ought to be properly reported. If we had a advantage for the Conservative Party in this. However, press in this country that reported proceedings in this reference has already been made—I think by my noble House and in the other place, rather than paying friend Lord Campbell-Savours—to the United States braying public schoolboys to pour buckets of verbal system of government. In the House of Representatives, ordure on those they consider to be their social that is exactly what happens. I do not think that the 1189 Parliamentary Voting System[10 JANUARY 2011] Parliamentary Voting System 1190

United States is in exactly a happier frame of mind the coalition Government ought to have the courage because everyone in the House of Representatives to say so. Conservative Back-Benchers who are silent represents around the same number of electors. but supportive ought to have the courage of their convictions and say, “We in your Lordships’ House Baroness McDonagh: With regard to the newspaper are not prepared to put up with legislation being article by the noble Lord, Lord Baker, does my noble rushed through in this way”. I do not feel any obligation friend agree with me that there are no significant size not to participate in this debate in order to enable the differences between Conservative and Labour seats in Government to hold a referendum on a certain date in the other place? May to please their coalition partners. That is a matter for them, not for this House as a whole. I hope and Lord Snape: There are no great differences between believe that if my noble friend Lord Wills, who has so them, as my noble friend says. However, to be honest, ably moved this amendment, is not satisfied with the I would not be much concerned if there were. That is a response from the Front Bench—having participated red—or, rather, a blue—herring as far as this argument in previous debates on the Bill, I think that it would be is concerned. It is surely a recognisable fact on both pretty unusual if he were—he will test the mood and sides of your Lordships’ House that voters are apt to will of the Committee. Let us see proper impartiality be found in clusters, with Labour voters in inner-city prevail before we wreck our unwritten constitution areas and Conservative voters in more rural areas. and rig the other place as well as your Lordships’ Liberal voters are, however, diffused throughout the House. country. Lord Clinton-Davis: What I find extraordinary about Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: We must not continue this debate on the topic raised by my noble friend is with that misunderstanding and misapprehension. For the question of, many years I represented 800 square miles of rural “the proper role of MPs in their constituencies and in Parliament”. Scotland, and in 1997 I had a Labour majority of Is there any doubt about that? Should we be raising it 21,000. Constituencies throughout Scotland such as at all? My noble friend is quite right to address this Eastwood, Edinburgh South and Dumfries, which issue. There is a profound difference between the way were thought to be Tory constituencies in perpetuity, in which Members of Parliament in urban and poor are now Labour seats. We can win these seats and we constituencies react and the way in which MPs in will win many more of them. country districts react. They are quite different. Perhaps this issue is being addressed by my noble friend. Lord Snape: That has put me in my place. The amendment is rather convoluted and we should address the issue directly: is there a difference between Noble Lords: Answer that! the way in which urban and country Members react? I represented an inner London constituency for a long Lord Snape: I will do my—no doubt inadequate—best time, and I held six surgeries a month—which is quite to do so. There are, of course, seats in England—we a lot. There is no doubt that my constituents put are not talking about Scotland now—where a Conservative numerous questions to me and I found that I could not voter is a lone voice indeed and where Conservative satisfactorily react to them by holding only four surgeries councillors are non-existent. Perhaps we should leave a month. That was inadequate. That is why I held six a it there before I provoke any more reminiscences from month. I found that that also was inadequate, but I my noble friend about what happens north of the could not do more. border. It is essential that this issue is addressed. Perhaps Before my noble friend Lady McDonagh intervened, my noble friend is doing that—I do not know. The I was talking about constituencies being based on issue ought to be addressed directly, which is where the numbers and nothing else. I looked up the origin amendment falls down. On the whole, I was impressed of “gerrymandering” but with my customary by what my noble friend had to say, but he has not forgetfulness—it must be old age—I have forgotten directly addressed this point. what my conclusions were. However, I understand that the word originated in the United States, so if Baroness McDonagh: In supporting the amendment, gerrymandering takes place big time in the United I will make two brief points on subsection (2)(b) of States I do not see how a numerically even system of the proposed new clause on what the basis of how we government is necessarily a fair one. I hope that I do set up representation in this country should be. I not raise any further ire, or knock the scabs off any old should be very hesitant to criticise one word of this sores, when I point out that for many years excellent amendment, but reference to the European gerrymandering was said to be a way of life in Northern Parliament would also have been useful. MPs have to Ireland, although seats there were not based on numerical consider how they relate not only to local government—or, balance. I cannot for the life of me see how the if they are in London, to the Greater London coalition can claim that equalising constituencies Authority—but to the European Parliament and what numerically in the way proposed under the legislation will become the elected House of Lords. If this will prevent at least the accusation of gerrymandering amendment or something like it is supported, I fear in the future. that an enormous opportunity to look at how those My concluding remark on the widely read and different levels of elected politicians can relate to each circulated article of the noble Lord, Lord Baker, is other will be missed. That is important not simply for that this matter is all about political advantage, and politicians, although it is important for any of us in 1191 Parliamentary Voting System[LORDS] Parliamentary Voting System 1192

[BARONESS MCDONAGH] amendment as making certain things statutory. Those this profession, but from the point of view of the of your Lordships who have read Richard Crossman’s electorate. To whom do they go with their problems, diaries may remember the glee with which he said, whether those relate to asylum or housing? “Oh, the Boundary Commission are our people and I am sure that any Members of your Lordships’ they will fix these boundaries in our favour”. For House who have been Members of Parliament—I many years we have conducted affairs more or less have not—will know that people will go from one to according to the idea that the party in power has a the other. They will start with a local councillor, and if licence to fix things in its own way. I think that we have they cannot get an answer there they will go to their now come to the stage at which it is very likely that we MP. Occasionally they come here, but they certainly will have coalition Governments, and when you have go to where I used to work in the European Parliament. coalition Governments you have to stop doing that It is not good for the consumer or the citizen if they sort of thing. You have to put things on a statutory cannot know easily which elected Member can help basis. What I like about my noble friend’s amendment them with their problem. This amendment should is that it very systematically establishes a committee of have been an opportunity to look at how those various inquiry that will report year after year and will take a elected members work together. That would have been comprehensive look at a number of these issues, including invaluable if this amendment were to be passed. the time to conduct boundary reviews, et cetera. What we are debating here is not so much whether one 4.30 pm should equalise or not—maybe we should equalise—but I raise a second issue: what is the proper way for a how we equalise. It might be inevitable that diverse constituency to be put together? In case not everyone constituencies are put together. This is not so much reads the Guardian, I quote Michael White discussing— about what we do but about how we do it and how we this will be no surprise—the Oldham East and continue to do it on a permanent basis. Saddleworth constituency. He describes the constituency That is an important part of the amendment. By and asks: putting it in the way he has—and I hope that the “What unites its redbrick Victorian terraces … and snooty”— Minister will take this very seriously—my noble friend forgive me, it was the Guardian— is adding something to the constitutional reform process “stone villages such as Diggle, Delph and Saddleworth are high-handed on which the Government are embarked. This will boundary changes which lumped the villages into Oldham in prove a very important brick to give greater legitimacy 1974. In 1997 they created the marginal constituency of Oldham to the kind of reform the Government wants than it East and Saddleworth. It is Coronation Street meets Last of the has got so far. Therefore, when it comes to House of Summer Wine … a shotgun marriage”. Lords reform and determining the size of the House, if I am not certain, much as I respect Michael White, this amendment is accepted it will be much easier for that he is accurate in thinking that it is wrong to have a the Government to propose the new size of the House constituency with such a varied make-up. I have often of Lords because they will be able to say that a thought that it would help Conservative Members if committee of inquiry has been permanently established they had some very deprived areas and understood the that can consider and report on the matter. This is why problems that some of us go on about. Perhaps, looking I commend my noble friend’s amendment. at it the other way around, Conservative Members might think it advantageous for Labour Members to have more rural areas and an understanding of different Lord Elystan-Morgan: My Lords, I make no apology issues such as hunting. for speaking briefly from these Benches. I do not believe that it is proper to criticise the detailed approach Lord Campbell-Savours: On that point, I put it to to this question of many Members of this House. If the noble Baroness that she is making the argument we did not give the matter our deepest thought and for proportional representation. most conscientious consideration, we would have no right to call ourselves a reviewing Chamber. Baroness McDonagh: That is quite a different argument. I follow very much the remarks of the noble Lord, I am saying that I do not know whether it is better for Lord Desai, in regarding the amendment as a breath a Member of Parliament to represent a much broader of fresh air, sanity and common sense. I suppose that area of the country and our communities and therefore every Member of this Chamber would accept the to unite and understand those, or whether it is better proposition that the mother of Parliaments, when for them to be very specialised and to represent an considering a totally new regime relating to so many area that feels very close together with a lot of shared aspects of its life, deserves the best and most assiduous interests. I see the merit of the amendment as enabling efforts that we can imagine. In other words, we should a committee of inquiry to think about how our not approach any one of these problems in a piecemeal communities can best be represented, whether at local way. Nor should we think of a final solution to any of government level, or, as it particularly addresses itself, these matters. These are immense problems and we within the House of Commons. Building on that, should not think in terms of any ultimate solution because I assume that it involves the same building save after carrying out the most detailed and assiduous blocks, would be an elected House of Lords, and scrutiny of all possibilities that are open. indeed an elected European Parliament.

Lord Desai: My Lords, I want to make a point not Lord Clinton-Davis: Is it not extraordinary that not about individual constituencies, because I have never one word has been heard today from the coalition been in another place, but about the importance of the Benches on this vital issue? 1193 Parliamentary Voting System[10 JANUARY 2011] Parliamentary Voting System 1194

Lord Elystan-Morgan: I am tempted to comment share, in that he referred to the amendment as a breath but, mustering all the neutrality that I can command of fresh air. I would go as far as to say that my noble as a Cross-Bencher, it would probably be better for me friend, in tabling the amendment, has offered a lifeline to remain silent. I invite noble Lords to consider the to the coalition. I see the noble and learned Lord, issue of determining that the number of Members of Lord Wallace of Tankerness, in his place. He is someone the House of Commons should be reduced from 650 for whom I have the greatest respect, and he must be to 600. I mention in passing that the effect on Wales uncomfortable with the process that brought this legislation would be utterly disproportionate. It would lose about to the House. There has been no consultation or a quarter of its Members of Parliament; the number prelegislative scrutiny and there is a rumour going would be cut from 40 to 30. The case that I put to the round, which I hope is not true, that on the coalition House with humility and sincerity is this. I can imagine Benches a timetable is being kept on how long Members that if one had a body of the wisest and most appropriate on this side of the House take to speak. Frankly, I people to examine this question, one might find regard that as bullying. Anyone who attempts to bully considerable support for the proposition that the number me usually comes slightly unstuck. I am glad to see of Members of Parliament should be reduced from that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace of 650 to a lower figure. The argument in favour of that Tankerness, agrees with me. The fact that we have this might have something to do with devolution, although amendment gives us an opportunity to get the Bill we were told many months ago by the noble Lord, back on to a proper track. Lord McNally, that the reduction from 650 to 600 had One of the areas that I found most difficult on nothing to do with devolution and that any reduction Second Reading was the figure of 600. I am not would be simply on account of the determination in absolutely wedded to the idea that there must be general that the number should be reduced. 650 Members of the other place; changes come about I can also imagine that that body would come to a and we should be prepared to look in detail at the totally different conclusion and state that, if one looks construction of areas. In my former constituency, one at all the duties that have been added to the working village, Chapelhall, went from being a sleepy village to life of an ordinary Member of Parliament over the an agglomeration of a number of very attractive housing past 50 years, there is a strong case for having a estates. The very place from which I take my title, number of MPs greater than 650. I can also imagine Coatdyke, has been linked with one town or another that a body, having looked at the matter conscientiously on about half a dozen different occasions. I do not feel and competently, would come to the conclusion that too strongly about that, but I should like to know while on the whole there was a case for an increase, where the mandate is behind the figure of 600. One there were good psychological and social reasons for coalition party in its manifesto wanted 500; leaving the number at 650. In other words, each of those another coalition party wanted 575. I did not go to a conclusions can easily be imagined in the case of a body very posh school—my noble friend Lord Reid of charged with that particular duty; yet the Government Cardowan and I went to the same school—but normally, are deciding this matter in a wholly arbitrary and when we worked out a compromise, it came in the rushed way, without any evidence to support them. middle. How do you go from 500 to 575 and come In relation to the question of the size of constituencies, away with 600? many of us in the House commented at Second Reading I see that the noble Lord, Lord McNally, is in his that the idea of equality based on a mathematical place. Perhaps he and his noble and learned friend commonality is utterly chimerical, artificial and Lord Wallace could collude and come up with an misleading. On the one hand it might seem attractive answer as to why that figure is 600. I heard another to say, “Let every constituency be more or less the rumour that some work has been done proving that same size—76,000 give or take a small percentage”. the figure of 600 disadvantages the Labour Party That does not give equality at all. If you live in an more than any other party. I am with my noble friend urban constituency which you can cycle across in Lord Foulkes in that I do not care what gerrymandering 15 minutes, you can have access to your Member of goes on with the constituency boundaries. It is the Parliament’s office in a matter of minutes. Just imagine arguments that will sway people and we have seen that doing that in a vast rural constituency, such as Brecon in other parts of the country. and Radnorshire in Wales, or Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross in Scotland. The idea of equality 4.45 pm turns on many different factors. Mathematical uniformity is only one and probably the most misleading and Lord Wills: I, too, am perplexed by how the figure artificial, yet the coalition Government have worshipped was arrived at. My noble friend may wish to know that at that altar on this matter. I made a freedom of information request some time ago for any deliberations made on the electoral My only criticism of the proposed new clause is consequences of different figures for the size of the that it should have preceded Clause 1. Everything I House of Commons. The noble Lord, Lord McNally, have said applies to Part 1 of the Bill. I ask the House promised on Second Reading to let me have such to bear in mind conscientiously and sincerely that as a deliberations, if in fact they had taken place. I am still Parliament we may well be rushing into decisions that waiting to know from him whether such calculations we will greatly regret in years to come. were made and, if they were, to see them. I am still waiting for the freedom of information request to be Baroness Liddell of Coatdyke: I am delighted to responded to. I think that it is already out of time; I follow the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, as he hope that I will not have to wait too much longer. I made a powerful speech from a point of view that I will of course share the results with the House. 1195 Parliamentary Voting System[LORDS] Parliamentary Voting System 1196

Baroness Liddell of Coatdyke: I am very grateful to from. My experience is that you care passionately my noble friend for that interesting piece of information. about the nature of the place that you come from. This is a subject to which I shall return—as, I am sure, People become grossly offended when bureaucrats—as will my noble friend—again and again. I will not be they see it—simply pluck a figure out of the air and bullied into shutting up about it. construct an artificial community as a consequence. My noble friend Lady Hayter also made a valid That becomes enshrined in this legislation, and this point when she referred to subsection (2)(b) in my adoration of localism is why my noble friend’s amendment noble friend’s amendment and the European Parliament. is so important. It is critical to stand back, take time The issue of where someone with a problem goes and do this properly. I urge the noble and learned becomes even greater in areas such as Scotland, Wales Lord, Lord Wallace, when he replies, to give us an and Northern Ireland. If I, as a constituent, wish to answer on the figure of 600 and to recognise that these get some advice, I can go to my local councillor, or are not partisan points, but are about the nature of the should I be going to my Member of the Scottish communities that make up this country. He should Parliament, my Member of Parliament, or my Member properly take into account that the passion that people of the European Parliament—or should I even be feel for their own communities requires that there be a bothering a Member of your Lordships’ House? One proper consideration of the nature of their democratic complexity that has not been addressed in the representation. legislation—one that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace of Tankerness, knows well—is that Lord Howarth of Newport: My Lords, this legislation constituency boundaries for the Scottish Parliament has been constructed in haste and is being pushed are shaped and based on the former Westminster through Parliament in haste. It was constructed in model, because a decision was taken to retain the haste during the hasty negotiation of the coalition membership at 129. Therefore, there is a disjunction agreement; it is being introduced in the first Session of between the boundaries of the Scottish Parliament a new Parliament—so there was no Green Paper, no and what is proposed. consultative process, nor, indeed, as has been noted, was there any pre-legislative scrutiny within Parliament; and it was very hastily proceeded with in the other Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: On that point, I advise place before it reached us. For all these reasons, it is Members of the House to listen very carefully to what right and proper that it should be carefully scrutinised my noble friend is saying, not because of any reputation not only by us here in this House now, but also on the that she may have but because—I hope that I am not basis that my noble friend Lord Wills has put forward. giving away a secret; I know that she will tell me off if Under my noble friend’s proposal for a committee I am—contrary to what my noble friend Lord Desai of inquiry, the great advantage would be that people said, when she was Secretary of State for Scotland and of enormous experience and wisdom would be brought had a decision to make which could have advantaged into the process, and it would be conducted in a the Labour Party in relation to boundaries for Westminster context that would ensure impartiality. I am sure that seats in Scotland, she took the very principled decision noble Lords want to produce the right outcome in the to accept the view of the independent Boundary broader interests of our constitution and our country, Commission, and the redistribution went ahead. That but it is in the nature of the adversarial processes that is why she should be listened to with great care, characterise our Parliament that it is very difficult to because of the great integrity with which she took that achieve a consensus in parliamentary proceedings. decision. However, under the process that my noble friend has advocated there would be a real prospect of being able Baroness Liddell of Coatdyke: I am very grateful to to reach a large measure of agreement, proposals my noble friend. Since he has given up the chairmanship could be recommended not only to us but to the of Hearts Football Club, he has become secretary of people of this country, and there would be a wider my fan club. I do not know whether that is more public debate on the interim recommendations of my auspicious or inauspicious than being chairman of noble friend’s committee and then, of course, on its Hearts Football Club. final conclusions. That would be a better way to The issue of the shape and construction is very approach these enormously important issues and important. I say to the Liberal Democrat members of responsibilities than the way that the coalition Government the coalition, who have, over the years, made a very have adopted. convincing argument for localism in politics—that all Frankly, the way that the Government have introduced politics is local—that what is proposed is an aberration. this Bill, and the way they are proceeding with it, is not It completely denies the local input into the shape and a good way to govern. These are major issues that size of constituencies. need to be treated with proper deliberation, bipartisanship I made reference on Second Reading to the fact that and responsibility—issues such as the appropriate size the very last speech that the late John Smith made in of constituencies, the number of Members of Parliament Scotland, the day before he died, was to the Boundary who should serve in the House of Commons, the Commission, because there was a proposal to split the make-up of a House of Commons that very possibly constituency that I went on to represent right down will be elected under the alternative votes system instead the main street. People assume that if you come from of first past the post, the relationship between a Member a mining community or a working-class community—if of Parliament and his constituents, and the relationship you do not come from a 12th-century mansion house between Parliament and the Executive. One recites the and can trace your ancestors back to 1066—you do issues that fall to be resolved in this process and it is not care about the history of the place that you come self-evident that they are of major importance to the 1197 Parliamentary Voting System[10 JANUARY 2011] Parliamentary Voting System 1198 health of our democratic culture and to the good be to the disadvantage of the Labour Party—give rise functioning of our Parliament. So my noble friend’s to doubts and questionings about the process that we recommendation is one that we ought to welcome and are engaged in at the moment, not only for noble embrace. Lords on this side of the House but for many people in Among the particular issues that he has itemised the country. Many people are very uncertain whether and drawn attention to in his complex amendment is this is the right way to be going. the relative importance of electoral equality. The noble If we could take the suspicion of partisan politics Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, spoke very well on that out of the process through the establishment of the issue. Coming—as he also does—from Wales, I am committee of inquiry proposed in this amendment particularly conscious of the devastating impact on then we would help to build the public’s confidence in the structure of political life in Wales that a dogmatic this important reforming process. We shall of course insistence on numerical equality in the size of have opportunities to debate specific amendments about constituencies would bring about. We have a responsibility numerical equality and what exceptions should be not to proceed as recklessly as that. Of course it is allowed for that, but let us recognise now that there are desirable, other things being equal, that constituencies protests coming from Cornwall, from the Isle of Wight should be more or less of equal size, but I think that and Ynys Mon which have to be taken seriously. There the very narrow margin of fluctuation of 5 per cent is a danger that places which regard themselves as either side of the norm of 76,000 electors that the authentic communities will be split and that others Government propose is simply inadequate. will be yoked together with places with which the So the committee of inquiry ought to examine the residents of both feel that they have nothing in common. options for a 5 per cent toleration, a 10 per cent That will not be at all good for confidence let alone for variation and, indeed, other margins of flexibility, so pride in our parliamentary democracy. that the desirability of constituencies being of equal My noble friend Lord Wills also rightly makes the size should be weighed against what is also, surely we point in subsection 2(b) of his amendment that the must all agree, highly desirable—that the integrity and House of Commons is part of a much larger system. character of particular communities should be recognised You cannot simply take a chunk of the constitution and respected and, of course, that the relationship and push it, pull it around, mould it and remake it as if between parliamentary constituencies and the boundaries it was a piece of plasticine while ignoring the impact of local authorities should also be so designed as to that a change in one part of the constitution has on make sense. other parts. If you alter the size of the House of The Deputy Prime Minister compares this legislation Commons, if you alter the relationship between Members in its significance to the Great Reform Act of 1832. of Parliament and the Executive, and if you alter the But the difference between his approach in this measure capacity of Members of the House of Commons to and the approach which was enacted in the 1832 scrutinise legislation, from all of these things there legislation is that it was the 1832 legislation that, for necessarily follow major implications for the work of the first time, established in our parliamentary culture this House. and our practical parliamentary arrangements the representation of communities. It was because people It has been noted by a number of speakers that we in the newly urbanising and industrialising communities, ought also to consider the relationship between the particularly in the north, objected to being represented House of Commons, the Scottish Parliament, the in Parliament by county MPs, and because people in Welsh Assembly and the devolved representative the counties themselves found that unacceptable, that institutions of government. I think that that point is the pressure grew to look again at how parliamentary not included in my noble friend’s amendment, but representation was constructed. It was in consequence perhaps we can reconsider his amendment on Report, of the 1832 measure that the great industrial cities and perhaps amendments can be made to his amendment and the new industrial communities—Manchester, so as to perfect the excellent scheme that he has put Birmingham, Liverpool, Bury, Rochdale, Bradford; forward for our consideration. Additionally, the these very significant and very important places—got relationship between Members of the House of Commons proper parliamentary representation and that, for the and elected members in local government has always first time, the people who lived in those places had the to be considered when you are considering making chance to elect their own Members of Parliament and changes to the House of Commons. Youcannot change to hold their own Members of Parliament to account. the House of Commons in isolation without there Of course the accountability was imperfect on the being very important implications. It is not of course limited franchise, but we saw a development from that just the interests of MPs and elected councillors that point which led to a state of affairs in which—even count, although their capacity to do their job is in though the pressure for reform rightly persisted for itself important, but we have to consider above all the more than 100 years after that, and there is still interests and views of members of the public. pressure for reform—there was a pride in the British My noble friend and indeed all of us agree that the constitution and an ownership of the British constitution. present system of boundary reviews is imperfect and We all are concerned that that pride in our constitution needs to be reformed because clearly it takes too long has diminished. However, hastily spatchcocked reforming to achieve changes in boundaries. But how long the measures which are perceived, fairly or unfairly, to be Boundary Commission ought to take in its processes tainted by a bias in terms of party interest—for example, is not something that we are going to be able to resolve whether the number of 600 constituencies, a figure in the course of debates in this House or back in apparently arbitrarily chosen, has been calculated to another place. As a number of noble Lords have 1199 Parliamentary Voting System[LORDS] Parliamentary Voting System 1200

[LORD HOWARTH OF NEWPORT] the debate forward. As we found when we debated already argued today, it is again of the greatest importance Part 1, all the speeches made were informed by the to ensure that boundaries are appropriately determined, famously articulate report of Lord Jenkins and the and particularly that the people who are to be represented analysis that it contained. Some agreed with it and by Members of the House of Commons have themselves some did not, but it shaped the analysis and therefore had an opportunity to contribute to the formation of enabled us to have a much better debate. the judgment and decision as to what the revised The second advantage to flow from having a prior boundaries ought to be. This is a complex matter that report is that, between the setting up of Jenkins and needs impartial, expert and thorough consideration the introduction of this Bill, many people, whether which again a committee of inquiry would be well mostly or wholly, changed their minds. There are placed to undertake. For this and a considerable number many people, particularly in my own party, who are of other reasons, what my noble friend has suggested adamant first-past-the-posters and can still see the is a helpful and excellent idea. arguments for it today, but they are prepared to My noble friend did suggest the committee of inquiry contemplate the argument set out in Jenkins for moving should be a Royal Commission, but hearts are slightly a little way in the other direction by having the alternative liable to sink at that suggestion because Royal vote, which is an improvement on first past the post in Commissions have a reputation for taking minutes the view of many of them. and going on for years, or whatever the saying is. But he has written in to his amendment that an interim Lord Tyler: My Lords— report should be made each year and that there should be a final report within three years of the passing of A noble Lord: A visit from the dead! this Bill. Although I think it would be a tight squeeze, it would then be possible for all the key decisions to be Lord Tyler: I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord taken within the life of this Parliament. Perhaps not Lipsey, for giving way. He was a very distinguished all the consequential legislation could be enacted, but member of the commission that was set up and chaired the decisions would be taken so that this would indeed by Lord Jenkins of Hillhead. Why does he think that, have proved to be a great reforming Parliament. The 10 years afterwards, we have had no action on its coalition could claim with better justification that it report? Does he not share our cynicism that the proposal was a great reforming Government, but the reform of his noble friend is simply a way of privatising, should have been designed on the basis of impartial, pushing out and delegating responsibility for these expert and thorough deliberation instead of hasty important decisions so that nothing should happen? legislation subject to the force majeure of the Whips. The experience that he and I have had of the That is not a good basis for ensuring lasting and complete failure of the Government whom he well-judged reform. supported to do anything on the basis of that commission’s recommendation, makes us very cynical about asking 5pm somebody other than Parliament to take decisions on Lord Thomas of Swynnerton: My Lords, I speak as this matter. an independent who usually supports the coalition Government, but I must say that I am very much Lord Lipsey: The noble Lord was very grateful that influenced by the speeches in favour of a committee of I gave way, but I am even more grateful to see him inquiry and of delay on this matter. Again, I speak as popping up to speak. The silence is broken—omertà is a completely independent Member, and there is one finished with. I am sure that we will have many thing that should be considered. If there is a committee contributions from him in the future. of inquiry, there is the fact that the other place made There is no intention among anyone, I think, to one major change during the course of the 20th century stop this legislation, as considered properly, going which was not legislated for and was not really discussed through. Let us be clear that what will destroy the either in this House or in the other place. It is the very legislation is not the danger of delay but the danger of large increase in the number of governmental supporters haste. The danger is that this ramshackle legislation, who receive some kind of emolument or support from half considered, will be forced into law and that a the Government of the day. In the case of the last subsequent Government, seeing that it is half baked, Government the figure went up to about 100 Members will force it out of law and we will have achieved as a matter of course. There has been no parliamentary nothing. That is the plan that the noble Lord, Lord approval of that, it has just happened. Perhaps we Tyler, is urging on the Committee. I beg this House, should not allow such a monumental change to happen which is a great example of the benefit of the rational again without discussion. consideration, to reject that way forward. I was saying before I gave way to the noble Lord Lord Lipsey: My Lords, with this amendment, we that many first-past-the-posters have been converted move from Part 1 to Part 2. I shall make one important to the alternative vote, but I take more pleasure in observation relevant to the case that my noble friend another form of conversion that has taken place. Lord Wills has made. In the case of Part 1, there was There were many people, and the Electoral Reform an inquiry—I know, because I sat on it. It was the Society was in their hands, who believed in wholesale, Jenkins inquiry. It is perfectly true that the referendum immediate electoral reform and full-scale proportional will be not on the recommendation of Jenkins but on representation. I have never been persuaded of the half of it; namely, the alternative vote. That inquiry case made for proportional representation; I do not did not completely crack the problem, but it moved believe in it and I do not agree with it—nor did 1201 Parliamentary Voting System[10 JANUARY 2011] Parliamentary Voting System 1202

Jenkins. However, during those years since Jenkins, become even more dominant in our politics and in our and in months and years of debate, those people have political culture and even more able to get their way moved their position so that now the Electoral Reform with the minimum amount of criticism and fuss. Society is a very strong backer of the yes campaign in I do not say that these arguments are conclusive this referendum. I think that it sensibly sees that a and that the number of MPs should stay as it is, be consensus reform that goes half way is better than a reduced or increased. I understand the populist wave wholesale reform that later gets reversed, and that it is of emotion that causes people to think that the number more likely to get reform by settling for a halfway of MPs should be decreased. It may be that an objective house than by holding out for ever for the whole cake. inquiry concludes that that is right. I do not express Through the post-Jenkins process has emerged a any opinion on those matters at this stage. All I say to greater level of consensus on where we are going. It is the House is that it is surely reasonable that arguments not a wholesale consensus—that would require the and facts such as these should be independently weighed verdict of the people in a referendum—but there is a and considered before a final verdict is reached and greater level of consensus and a greater clarity on the before legislation making it the law of the land is arguments. That makes a hugely strong and powerful forced through Parliament. case for proceeding by reflection. Lord Touhig: The House should be grateful to my Lord Desai: Is my noble friend suggesting that the noble friend Lord Wills for his amendment because it first part of this Bill is all right and the second part is gives the House and the coalition partners the chance causing problems, and that therefore we should hive to take stock and reflect on this seventh day in Committee the two things off and think more about Part 2? on the Bill. If they were to adopt the proposals in the amendment my noble friend has moved perhaps we Lord Lipsey: I made my criticisms of Part 1 during would start to move towards some consensus on major its passage. We have another chance to consider it at constitutional change. That would be the common-sense Report. I think it can be improved but I am broadly in approach, although I well remember as a teenager, my favour of everything about it except the referendum mother used to say to me, “Son, in life you’ll find that date. That is my broad position. It is also my position sense isn’t that common”. that Part 2 needs much more improvement than Part 1. My brief remarks all relate to subsection (2)(b) of I am grateful to my noble friend for giving me the the proposed new clause, which says that this inquiry chance to make that point. would take, Without absorbing too much of the House’s time “into account the need to maintain the Union”. with interventions, perhaps I may be forgiven if I take This is a matter I referred to at Second Reading one example of the kind of issue drawn from the long because I believe that the Bill as constructed is a threat and comprehensive list in my noble friend’s amendment to this precious thing we have: the union of the nations on which really considered inquiry and judgment is in these islands. The noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, needed. That is the number of MPs. The figure was briefly referred to the Bill’s impact on Wales where it snatched out of the air. Half the time Ministers admit would reduce the number of Members of Parliament that. It should not have been snatched out of the air. by 25 per cent. If the Parliament of the United Kingdom There are lots of facts that are relevant. It is true that treats Wales in this way, it will have an adverse effect since 1950 the number of MPs has grown by 3 per on the view Wales takes of the union. cent. It is also true that the electorate have grown in Welsh is the first language of the majority of people the same period by 25 per cent. That is to say that in five parliamentary seats in Wales—Ynys Môn, Arfon, every MP has 22 per cent more constituents to service. Dwyfor Meirionnydd, Ceredigion, and Carmarthen On the servicing of constituents, I have never been in East and Dinefwr. Wales is the only part of the union another place but I did work for a Member of another where a substantial number of people—some 20 per place, Anthony Crosland, in 1972, and if we received cent of the population—speak two languages. If my 30 constituency letters per week we were astonished. noble friend’s amendment were accepted, it would at They were dealt with by his constituency secretary and least give an opportunity to look at the impact that his local party without difficulty. Now I am told that this legislation has on the representation of people 300 letters is the average and there is much more whose first language is Welsh in this Parliament of the communication in other ways. United Kingdom. Only Wales has a big linguistic issue The research think tank, Democratic Audit, has so far as the rest of the union is concerned. produced some other facts that should be weighed. For example, it turns out not to be true, as the Government 5.15 pm have argued, that we have vastly more representatives Lord Elystan-Morgan: Does the noble Lord recollect than other countries. We have barely more than France that this matter has been carefully considered before, and practically the same as Italy. But other countries in 1992 when the Boundary Commissions Act was benefit from having far more local elected representatives passing through both Houses? In the House of Commons, to deal with a great many other things that our Members the invitation was held out to Kenneth Clarke, the of Parliament have to deal with themselves. Whether then Home Secretary, to considerably reduce the number we should go down that road is another matter but of constituencies in Wales. He said that he would do that is what was concluded. Then there is the question no such thing because it had long been accepted that that has been raised briefly in this debate about the the national, cultural and many other considerations danger of cutting the number of MPs but keeping the in relation to Wales were of such nature to demand number of Ministers precisely as it is. The Executive that the same number be maintained. 1203 Parliamentary Voting System[LORDS] Parliamentary Voting System 1204

Lord Touhig: I endorse the point made by the noble we could perhaps reach some consensus. I say to the Lord. As part of the structure of our unwritten Government: “Do not be so offensive to the Welsh constitution—thank God we do not have a written people”. constitution—it is important that we recognise that elements of the union have to be taken into account. I Lord Knight of Weymouth: I support Amendment made the point at Second Reading that in California, 54ZA, in the name of my noble friend Lord Wills, tens of millions of people send two senators to the because it would give us an opportunity to put together United States’ Senate as does a state like Wyoming the bigger picture of constitutional reform, in the which has fewer than half a million people. That needs absence of such a picture from the Government. The to be taken into account. If my noble friend’s proposals amendment would help the Government greatly if it were accepted, the Government would then have a offered us an insight into their thinking across the chance to reflect more sensibly on how we should range of constitutional reform proposals and how all proceed with these major reforms. the measures that we are debating might fit together. Welsh representation in Parliament goes back to Indeed, the amendment would allow that picture to be the 16th century, although there is evidence that in put together in such a way that no one would even 1322 and 1327—700 years ago—Wales was invited to voice a suspicion that the measures were being put send 24 Members of Parliament to the House of together in any kind of partisan political interest. Commons. The Bill as proposed would give Wales just For such significant constitutional reforms, I believe 30 MPs. The regular reviews of parliamentary that it would be in the interests of the country for us to constituencies have their origins in the House of Commons start by setting out the roles and responsibilities—as (Redistribution of Seats) Act 1944. The Act instructed mentioned in subsection (2)(b) of the new clause that the Boundary Commission for Wales to look initially Amendment 54ZA would insert—of all our representative at abnormally large constituencies but also to conduct bodies, starting with Parliament. Starting with the a review of all seats with a view to keeping them under relationship between the legislative and executive functions constant review. The rules for redistribution for the in both Chambers and taking into account the initial review stated that Wales should have not fewer representative function of the other place, we could than 35 seats and that rule remained in place for the then go on to examine, in the language of subsection (2)(b) first periodical review published in 1954. The second of the proposed new clause, periodical review in 1958 stated that Wales should “the proper role of MPs in their constituencies and in Parliament”. have not fewer than 35 seats. The fourth and fifth Having established that point and having had some periodical reviews did much the same. consultation and agreement on those very basic issues We shall perhaps get into this wider debate as we around how Parliament and our democracy should progress this Bill through Committee. I believe strongly work, we could then work through the issue of that to treat Wales in this way is a threat to the union. Parliament’s relationship with other Parliaments and We will have a referendum in the spring on more Assemblies, including the European Parliament, as powers for the Welsh Assembly. Whatever people’s mentioned by my noble friend Lady Hayter, and the views—they are entitled to them and I am sure they Welsh Assembly and Scottish Parliament, as mentioned will express them—it is putting the cart before the by my noble friend Lord Touhig and others. The role horse to say that Wales will have fewer seats whether of local authorities could also be considered, as my or not the people of Wales decide to transfer more noble friend Lord Beecham set out. powers to the Assembly in Cardiff. It is also offensive Once we had established those sorts of relationships, to people in Wales whose first language is Welsh to say we could then discuss what a sensible fixed term for that it does not matter if the Welsh language is well Parliament might be. Instead, we are to consider in represented in the House of Commons. The point was due course the Fixed-term Parliaments Bill in isolation. made in evidence given to the Welsh Affairs Committee Such a piecemeal approach to legislation does not in the other place that this would adversely impact enable us to see the bigger picture. upon Welsh-speaking areas. Once we had established all those matters, we might I urge the Government to take great consideration then be able to think about what the appropriate size of my noble friend’s amendment. It would give us a of each Chamber in Parliament should be. Having chance to reflect and gain some consensus. I say to the established the appropriate size of each Chamber, as Government that I think that the people of Wales will referred to in subsection (2)(c) of the new clause take offence at being treated in a way in which no proposed by Amendment 54ZA—indeed, we will discuss other part of the union is being treated. If the Bill is later tonight if we are lucky, or on Wednesday otherwise, enacted in its present form, one in four Members of my Amendment 63YAthat also deals with the relationship Parliament from Wales would cease to go to the other between the size of the membership of this place and place. That is disgraceful and, I believe, would be that of the other place—we could then discuss, in the injurious to the union. context of the committee of inquiry that my noble friend Lord Wills proposes, the size and composition Both the Conservative and Unionist Party, which of each House and how each House would get there. once prided itself on being the party of the union, and Unfortunately, Part 1 of the Bill, which we have already the Liberal Democrats, which is the party of Lloyd debated, anticipates the need to ask the question about George—Lloyd George would be turning in his grave the alternative vote through a referendum, but that is a at what is being proposed—need time to reflect on the piecemeal approach. We should be doing this as part issue. If they would take on board those points in the of a much wider picture that we could all understand, way that my noble friend’s amendment would allow, so that we can all make judgments accordingly. 1205 Parliamentary Voting System[10 JANUARY 2011] Parliamentary Voting System 1206

Of course, in thinking about the composition of For me to visit Brownsea, which I was able to do both Chambers, we could then get into some of the only on a few occasions during the time I represented more interesting and thorny issues, such as that which that constituency, given that it had only about six came up in Questions today on whether a reformed electors on it I had to travel about an hour and a half Second Chamber should include a place for the Lords from my home at one end of the constituency to get a spiritual and what value is provided by having the ferry. The ferry would go every now and then and voice of independent expertise of the Cross-Benchers, ultimately I would get there. It took all day to meet who are people whom we all know and respect. In a one or two constituents who might have issues that radio programme that was broadcast last night, I was they wanted me to address. Thank goodness for the fortunate enough to be able to discuss these matters telephone, and in this case for e-mail, although some with the noble Lord, Lord Norton, and the noble of the comments that we have had about the amount Baroness, Lady D’Souza, and all three of us agreed of correspondence that Members of Parliament now that there is an absence of that bigger picture at the have show how much is generated by e-mail now. It is moment. We are having to discuss and debate—at quite astonishing. great length, I am afraid—these issues in isolation. If Equally, the main industrial estate where the vast we had a more coherent vision of where things are majority of my constituents in Weymouth worked was going on constitutional reform, perhaps that would not in my constituency but in the neighbouring save time. The phrase “more haste, less speed” comes constituency of West Dorset, because it sat just the to mind in the context of the Government’s approach wrong side of the local authority boundary. I certainly to these matters. welcome some of the freedom that the Bill might offer I have one or two things to say about the phrase, the Boundary Commission to cut across local authority boundaries. Brownsea Island is in Dorset and Poole is “the proper role of MPs in their constituencies”, in Poole. That is why Brownsea Island was lumped in subsection (2)(b) of the proposed new clause, because into South Dorset. Making some sense of all of that there has been some debate from some on this side—they would certainly be welcome, but to have some kind of would be on this side, as there has not been much very crude system that is based only on numbers and debate from anywhere else, except for an important not on constituencies of interest would be very retrograde. pair of contributions from the Cross Benches—about That is why the Government are being offered a the characteristics of different constituencies for Members fantastic opportunity to accept this amendment from of Parliament. For two Parliaments, I was fortunate my noble friend Lord Wills, which has clearly been enough to represent the constituency of South Dorset, thought through in some detail, as demonstrated by which has both very urban areas, some of which were its length. It gives them the opportunity to allow us, as quite deprived, and very rural areas. It was notable to a country, to think about these constitutional reforms me that the characteristics of the caseload that I had in their entirety and not to see individual measures in the different parts of my constituency were profoundly rushed through, which I am sure we would all live to different. regret. When I was holding surgeries in the borough of Weymouth and Portland, I predominantly had housing Lord Harris of Haringey: My Lords, my noble cases. I also had a fair amount of immigration cases friend Lord Wills has done the Committee an enormous and a fair amount relating to problems with the tax service by presenting this amendment today, because credit system and the child support system. I had far it has enabled those of us who have engaged with the fewer of those sorts of cases over in the Purbeck end debate at least to consider the conspiracy not to talk of my constituency, where things such as planning about certain matters that really needed to be resolved would come up much more regularly along with in advance of taking final decisions on this legislation. fundamental issues about the rurality and isolation of I know there has been a lot of comment about an that part of the country, including the islands that I apparent conspiracy among Labour Members of the represented. Brownsea and one or two others were a Committee to spin the discussion out. I have to say to real struggle for me to get to because I had to go your Lordships that I am not part of that conspiracy. I through several constituencies to catch the ferry to have not previously intervened in Committee on the visit my constituents. Bill to speak on any of the amendments. That leads me to make some final comments about subsection (2)(g) of this proposed new clause, on 5.30 pm examining, Lord Rennard: Has the noble Lord just confirmed “the arguments surrounding the statistical basis on which electoral that there is a conspiracy and that he is not a part areas are … constructed”. of it? I could seek to detain the Committee by talking through some of the excellent arguments in the Electoral Lord Harris of Haringey: I am merely saying that Commission document that I referred to earlier when some people—the noble Lord, Lord Rennard, is clearly I intervened on my noble friend Lord Campbell-Savours, one of them—believe that there is such a conspiracy. I but I will save that. Suffice it to say that in my own can assert that I am not part of any such conspiracy, if experience, having represented that seat of South Dorset one even exists. I wanted to speak today specifically for two Parliaments, drawing boundaries in such a because of the importance of considering the nature way that they do not take account of such basic things and character of representation. This is the issue to as the ability of people to get around creates problems. which the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, referred, 1207 Parliamentary Voting System[LORDS] Parliamentary Voting System 1208

[LORD HARRIS OF HARINGEY] of Parliament. If you want to go down the route of and on which I intervened previously, not in Committee equalisation, you should first define what the appropriate but when we debated in the Chamber the Bill’s potential ratio is. If you do not know that, the argument is, hybridity and what it is about a locality that underpins frankly, pointless and otiose. the nature of representation. However, I do not necessarily believe that equalisation While we may have had the silence of the lambs on is the sole point that we should be looking at. One of the Benches opposite, with the notable exception of the dogs that have not barked in this debate has been the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, and the noble Lord who the question of what other factors are important, has just intervened on me, what has been most notable and the amendment provides the opportunity to consider about the discussion is the dogs that did not bark—the the character of localities and their different natures. specific issues. The amendment provides an opportunity When I was the elected Member of the London Assembly for those points to be considered in depth. The dogs for Brent and Harrow, I had the privilege of representing that have not barked are serious debates about the the most ethnically diverse local authority area in the nature of representation and of Parliament, and about country and, separately, the most religiously diverse. what we want the House of Commons and Members To suggest that the characters of those areas did not of Parliament do and how we want them to operate. influence the nature of the work that I did as a public The issue of optimum size is critical, but we have representative is, again, ludicrous. The characteristics not debated or discussed it in any real detail; the of local constituencies matter. Youwill find that nearly number appears to have been offered down from on every other jurisdiction recognises that as part of the high without any consideration. I have not had the factors that need to be taken into account when it privilege of being an elected Member of the House of comes to deciding where to draw boundaries. Commons, but I was an elected public representative The other dog that has not barked has been the size in London for 26 years. For part of that time I was the of the House of Commons. The issue has been brought directly elected representative of 5,000 people in the up today but we have not had that debate. What will Hornsey central ward of the London Borough of be the most effective size of the House of Commons Haringey. For part of that time I was the directly to do the work that we believe it should carry out? elected representative of the people of Brent and What is the effective size for both representing constituents Harrow, a constituency with an electorate of something and scrutinising legislation? Where is that debate? We like 400,000. I have therefore had experience of two are sidestepping it because of the desire to push ahead extremes of the nature of representation, and the without proper consideration of these issues. 400,000 figure is probably more consistent with the size of the constituencies of the United States Congress. My noble friend Lord Beecham talked earlier about the relationship with local authorities. My noble friend My point is not that I am advocating one or other Lord Knight, who has just spoken, said that he was in as being the norm for the House of Commons; I am favour of this. I have to say that I am against it. The simply saying that there is a world of difference between Bill encourages, or at least would make it far easier for, the type of representation at the lower end of that constituency boundaries to cross local government scale and the type at the higher end. To pretend, boundaries. I do not believe that that is in the interests therefore, that there will be no difference whether of good and effective representation. It will make it Members of the House of Commons represent 50,000, more difficult for MPs to cover the ground, and for 60,000, 70,000 or 90,000 people is ludicrous. There has them to have a relationship with local authorities so to be recognition of the nature of the relationship that in partnership they can achieve things for their between constituents and their Member of Parliament, constituents both at local government level and in and that seems to be lacking in the Bill. working with central government in Parliament. Those are the issues that make talking about crossing local Lord Mawhinney: I have had the privilege of serving government boundaries in this way so inappropriate. in the other place. I started immediately after a boundary The final issue that I want to refer to, in terms of redistribution with 60,000 to 65,000 constituents, and dogs that have not barked in this debate but that finished up with 95,000. I hope the noble Lord is not should have been allowed to be considered in detail, is suggesting that in the latter years my constituents got the nature of the electoral data on which all this is a worse service. based and the frequency with which they change. I have spent all my political life in London. London is Lord Harris of Haringey: No, my Lords, I am an area in which, historically, there has often been suggesting that the noble Lord no doubt had to work underrepresentation because of the number of people 50 per cent harder to deliver the service that he regarded who are registered to vote. That underrepresentation was appropriate at the beginning of his time in the was at a particular peak when the community charge—the other place. That is fine, but we ought to— poll tax—was introduced, and all that went with that. A large number of residents in London chose to drop Lord Tyler: I am grateful to the noble Lord for off the electoral register, as they did in many other giving way. He is making a very powerful case for urban areas and no doubt elsewhere. That legacy of equalising the numerical strength of each constituency. underrepresentation remains. We should also consider the turnover in big inner-city Lord Harris of Haringey: The case that I am making populations and the number who come in. At one is that we have to define the appropriate numerical point when I was leader of my local authority, the relationship between the electorate and the Member collection register for the community charge turned 1209 Parliamentary Voting System[10 JANUARY 2011] Parliamentary Voting System 1210 over by one-third each year, indicating a great flow of to finish and prepared to use a built-in majority to population dropping into and out of the area. That push the Bill through without any debate. That is a was partly a consequence of migration and partly negation of democracy. I do not understand how because of the mobility of populations at that time, Liberal Democrats who sat through the Labour but it also involves the recognition of particular areas. Government, attacking and criticising us for such Because the Bill is constructed around drawing up things, can sit there and accept it. My noble friend these boundaries and quotas on the basis of an already Lord Grocott will recall that in the Labour Government flawed electoral register, we are building into the system there were certainly people on the Back Benches of an inappropriate bias against areas with historic the Labour Party arguing the case, questioning, underregistration and areas with an historically very challenging and making sure that the issues were high turnover. properly discussed. It is quite astonishing that, apart from Labour Members and two distinguished, excellent Lord Howarth of Newport: Does my noble friend contributions from the Cross Benches, no one has agree that the factor he has just been speaking of will entered this debate. be exacerbated in consequence of the coalition My second and last point is for the noble and Government’s housing benefit changes? learned Lord, Lord Wallace of Tankerness, who will reply to this debate and who I know very well and have Lord Harris of Haringey: My noble friend is absolutely great respect for. I hope he will reply properly to the right. The projections that people have talked about—of debate and deal with the issues that have been raised. I the flows of people having to move because they will want him to deal specifically with this one. The Scottish be displaced by changes to housing benefit—necessarily Constitutional Convention preceded the setting up of means that he will be right. I also suspect that we will the Scottish Parliament. It involved all the parties, see more people dropping out of the system and being civil society in Scotland, the universities, the trade difficult to pick up. They will be trying to avoid unions and everyone in Scotland. It discussed what the various obligations as a consequence of that. I thought powers of the Scottish Parliament should be, what the noble Lord, Lord Rennard, was moved to intervene should be devolved, how many Members there should again but he has not done so, which is fine. be and what the electoral system should be. Before My point is that these are fundamental issues which legislation was introduced, the Labour Government should be considered before we make a final judgment allowed that debate to take place. If the noble and as to the direction we are taking in this legislation. It learned Lord, Lord Wallace, will not agree to this for a may be that, after proper consideration, a simply major constitutional change to the House of Commons, numerical allocation would be the most appropriate he needs to search his conscience very strongly. Those way forward. It is not one that I would favour but I are the only points that I want to make. can see how we could get to that. First, let us debate these issues properly. This legislation is not giving us 5.45 pm the opportunity, whereas my noble friend’s amendment would enable that to take place, for the public to be Lord Boateng: My Lords, we are privileged in this engaged in it and for this to be as transparent a House to serve in a Parliament that is widely perceived process as possible. If I remember correctly, transparency the world over as the mother of parliaments. That is a is one of the objectives of this Conservative-led coalition privilege we enjoy and one that several of us have now Government; they believe it is so important. Let us see enjoyed in both Houses. I had a period of almost five that importance reflected in this legislation. years’ absence from the Palace of Westminster, living and working in a country that was a new democracy. It Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: My Lords, I make just valued its written constitution, which encapsulates two brief points, which arise from the debate so far. some of the highest possible ideals of democratic The first follows what my noble friend described as the participation and values. However, it was located in a dogs that did not bark. I ask Members of this House continent—Africa—where, frankly, democracy has, over to imagine a Labour Government proposing an arbitrary the years, been stretched and at times broken, albeit a number in the House of Commons, without any continent that is now beginning to demonstrate a consultation or a Green Paper, and without any hearing degree of movement towards a better and more truly arrangements whatever. What squeals we would hear representative democracy. Therefore, along with from the Liberal Democrat Benches. We would have many other Members on all sides of this House and heard lectures from the noble Lord, Lord Lester of in another place, I have spent time—through Herne Hill, about how it breached human rights. We the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association, the would have heard squeals of high dudgeon and moral Westminster Foundation for Democracy and other outrage from the noble Lords, Lord Tyler and Lord institutions—working with parliamentarians and groups Rennard, about its being disgraceful and undemocratic. of citizens globally. They have seen in the Westminster What have we heard in this debate of now two hours system of democracy something that they seek to and 16 minutes? There have been three interventions emulate and aspire to. from the opposite side, which is not prepared to engage I have had an opportunity, over the past four years in the argument. while I have been absent from this place, to see at first I understood that the House of Lords gave us an hand how parliamentarians and civic groups throughout opportunity to revise legislation—to debate it, which Africa look to this place for examples of how they can means to look at both sides of the argument. The better conduct themselves and how they should embark situation now appears to be that the coalition is prepared on constitutional reform. It is worth this House’s just to sit there on its Benches, waiting for the debate while to reflect, just for a moment, on how this measure 1211 Parliamentary Voting System[LORDS] Parliamentary Voting System 1212

[LORD BOATENG] of hotly contested and inconclusive elections, just as is perceived outside Westminster—not just in our own our election was hotly contested and inconclusive. We country but abroad and, in particular, in those places have said to them, “The last thing you as a Government that have traditionally looked to Westminster as the should be doing now is pushing through a measure best example of how to conduct constitutional reform which could be perceived as enshrining your own and embed democracy in governance. power for longer than the electorate have given you a When we pause for a moment to think about how right to expect”. Noble Lords on all sides of this we are perceived externally, we might see something of House have given that message to others; it is a lesson value. I certainly see something of value in the amendment that we ought to take on board ourselves. of the noble Lord, Lord Wills. It gives us time to pause and reflect; it seeks to proceed on a firm basis of Lord Maclennan of Rogart: My Lords, I have no evidence; it seeks to arrive at a consensus on the way mandate to speak on this matter for the coalition but I forward in crucial matters, as many noble Members of have listened to the debate for two and a half hours this House have articulated in this afternoon’s debate and I have heard assertions being made which certainly and earlier on Part 1; and it seeks for that to take place ought to be rebutted, not necessarily by the Minister under the auspices of a High Court judge. That is but by those who have taken a strong interest in important. Members from all sides of this House have constitutional reform in this House and in another been out and about globally, talking to and sharing place. I have served in Westminster for 44 years and I with colleagues in other Parliaments on issues of am bound to say that the view that constitutional governance, sometimes in very fraught situations. In reform should be based on consensus is so unhistorical the past we have always been able to reply to in the that I cannot recognise it as having even a scintilla of affirmative to one of the questions that they have truth. The noble Lord, Lord Boateng, suggested that asked us: in the United Kingdom we proceed with we should react to the recommendations of the Speaker’s constitutional reform on the basis of consensus. Speaker’s Conference. I served on the Speaker’s Conference Conferences and other devices have brought about a when it considered the voting age of members of the degree of consensus, and only when that consensus public. If that is not a fundamental question, I do not has been achieved are we prepared to go forward, even know what is. The Speaker’s Conference recommended when it has meant delay or perhaps taking longer than that people should have the vote at 20. The Labour many would have liked. Government of the time did not consider that that was right. The late Lord Gardiner, for whom I had the What I find so disturbing about Parts 1 and 2 of the greatest respect, summoned me to his chambers to ask Bill is that they are clearly being driven through without why the Labour Party’s policy on having the vote at 18 consensus; for us to pretend otherwise is just spurious. had not been reflected in the Speaker’s Conference It will weaken our hand in the world as we argue for recommendations. Did that Government respect the better governance globally, as we will no longer be recommendation of the Speaker’s Conference? No, able to say, “In our country we proceed by way of they did not. They went ahead with the vote at 18. consensus”. We will no longer be able to say that in our country—this applies particularly in relation to Time and again we have had references to the how constituency boundaries are drawn—we proceed 1832 Act. What sort of a royal commission was called only on the basis of an inquiry presided over by a legal before that 1832 Act was passed by Parliament? What figure in which people on all sides are able to give kind of consensus was there in the country? There was evidence and in which their views are heard. nothing. There was political leadership from Earl Grey, who had strongly advocated these matters for some time.

Lord Soley: I am grateful to my noble friend for Lord Wills: I have great respect for, and pay tribute touching on an important issue that I want to raise to, the noble Lord’s very distinguished history as a when we discuss Amendment 59: namely, that when constitutional reformer and he was right to remind the we act as international observers at elections overseas, Committee of that. I know that it was a long time ago most notably in some of the former Communist countries, and he may have forgotten exactly what I said in my one of the things we always look at is who decides the opening remarks but I do not think that he was size and structure of a parliament in the context of listening quite as carefully as he should to those remarks whether that is done with all-party agreement or on an which informed the rest of this debate. I specifically independent assessment. That is one of the ways in mentioned practice over the past 100 years or so. I am which we can flag up warning signs. not talking about the 19th century but of relatively modern times. I am not talking about the broad Lord Boateng: I am grateful to my noble friend for constitutional issues about which there will always be reflecting on that. Many Members on all sides of the debate. My noble friends Lord Grocott and Lord Committee, some of whom are sadly silent this afternoon, Snape talked about the broad constitutional issues of know that what my noble friend says is true and that the alternative vote system and I fundamentally disagree we will be weakened by the measures that we are with them on that. I am talking about achieving debating and which some seek to push through the consensus on a process that is, as far as is possible, House. I ask us to pause and give serious consideration independent and fair minded. Does the noble Lord to the proposal in the amendment, as it would at least not recognise that? enable us to say that we have sought consensus and respected the role that the judiciary can, and ought to, Lord Maclennan of Rogart: What I do recognise is play in this area of constitutional reform. A number of that in my lifetime the entitlement to vote has changed us have visited countries in the immediate aftermath considerably. There was, for example, a multiple vote. 1213 Parliamentary Voting System[10 JANUARY 2011] Parliamentary Voting System 1214

My father cast two votes for parliamentary elections capacity—and the creation of a Supreme Court. That in different constituencies and that was perfectly legal. was done by the decision of the Prime Minister, backed I am conscious that that change in the law did not by some influential members of his Cabinet. It was come about as a result of a high-powered discussion certainly not accepted generally or widely. There was led by a judge. We know the opinion of judges. We no consensus about it. It was torn apart in this House have heard from former judges in this debate. The and was considered for months in a committee of this noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, gave us his view. House, but it was certainly not produced as a result of What is there to suggest that a judge sitting on a seeking consensus. After the event, it seems to have committee comprising partisan people drawn from been a very wise move, which was backed by the then both Chambers will come up with any different view great Lord Bingham, who was the senior Law Lord. from that of the elected House of Commons, backed or not backed by this Chamber? It is a chimerical view Lord Sewel: I wonder whether the noble Lord will that we could have a consensus on this set of propositions. now try and square the argument he is putting forward It is a method of delaying decision, and constitutional with the argument for participatory democracy that reform requires decision. his party advocates? Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: Does my noble friend—I still think of the noble Lord as my noble friend—not Lord Maclennan of Rogart: Yes, I will. We have a agree that the Scottish Constitutional Convention, of very imperfect system of participatory democracy, which he was part, provided us with an excellent because we have a rotten electoral system. The first model whereby we had a White Paper, then an all-party past the post system does not reflect in Parliament discussion and discussion with people from the anything like the aspirational end of participatory community—indeed, I think there were some lawyers democracy, and although I do not regard the alternative on it as well—and that that is exactly the right kind of vote as the ideal system—again I speak for myself and model that we should be encouraging in this instance? not the coalition—it is none the less a step towards a better representation and a more participative end 6pm point in our constitution. It will, I believe, make people feel in their constituencies generally that their Lord Maclennan of Rogart: I, alas, disagree with the vote does count. noble Lord on that. As he said, I served on the Scottish Constitutional Convention but I am bound to say that it was a device to fill a gap in time when it Lord Sewel: In that case, is the noble Lord saying was not possible to extract from Parliament the decisions that the individual citizen is limited to being just the that reformers such as the noble Lord were in favour individual elector and not an active citizen in the of. It was a method of trying to cover up political legislative process? delay. I am sorry but I do not think that it was ideal. I think it was he who suggested that all parties had Lord Maclennan of Rogart: There are many ways in participated. That is not the case. The Conservative which one can be an active citizen, and I enumerated Party did not participate. some of them when introducing a debate on that very I also sat on another convention which was attempting subject in this House shortly before Christmas. to draw up a constitution for Europe and, again, was I do not wish to detain the House, and I am filled with representatives of national Parliaments from conscious that the hour is late and that many will wish all around Europe. I am bound to say that it came to to reach a decision on this. However, I want to say that nothing. What has come to something has been the I am distressed by the fact that so many noble Lords treaty of Lisbon, which came about as a result of for whom I have a high regard should imply that this executive government in a number of different countries deliberative process would bring about a better end plucking from that convention the best that they could point than the deliberations of our Parliament, which to give us a framework for our European constitution. the noble Lord, Lord Boateng, referred to as the I am sorry, but I profoundly disagree with the mother of Parliaments. It is so highly regarded largely thread of argument that has been built upon the because it is thought to act, usually, in a deliberate amendment that we heard eloquently defended and and wise way. On this occasion, the silence on these advocated at the beginning of this debate. We have Benches indicates consent to what the Bill is putting seen this process of setting up commissions. We had a forward, and an awareness that those opposing it are commission—a royal commission—set up on the reform seeking to stop it from making progress and to stymie of this place, sitting under the noble Lord, Lord the efforts to achieve the constitutional reform that is Wakeham. How many of its recommendations, consensual long overdue. as they were, have been implemented here? Virtually nothing has happened. Lord Gilbert: My Lords, in the 27 years that I was in The most notable reforms of the Government which another place I represented all that time the good preceded the present one did not all come about as a people of Dudley. The extraordinary thing is that I result of commissions of inquiry or looking for consensus. represented no fewer than three distinct and different One of the most remarkable reforms was that which constituencies, and was chosen to stand as a candidate resulted in the appointment of the noble and learned for a fourth constituency, within the boundaries of Lord, Lord Falconer, to the Cabinet and concerned Dudley. That was not so much an inconvenience to taking out of this Chamber active judges—active me, but an infuriating irritant to the good people of Members of the House of Lords, sitting in its judicial Dudley. 1215 Parliamentary Voting System[LORDS] Parliamentary Voting System 1216

[LORD GILBERT] may exceptionally be good reasons for departing from this principle, I have also seen the consequences—as, no doubt, but the perils of doing so are well illustrated in the present Bill. many other noble Lords have—of constituencies that The case for proceeding rapidly with one Part of this Bill is far cross local authority boundaries. That is not only an stronger than for the other”. inconvenience to the Member of Parliament but an It is possible that the effect of Part 1 of the Bill as enormous inconvenience to elected councillors and drafted will have no effect on our constitution. There paid officials of the different local authorities. It is is no doubt that if Part 2 in its current form goes beyond an irritant; it drives ordinary citizens berserk through, it will have a substantial effect on our because they do not know who to go to. It is not a constitution. I very strongly empathise with the very question of parliamentary convenience. powerful speech by my noble friend Lord Boateng. Long ago I came to the view that this manic idea What would we say to a country that said, “We are that we have to have precise mathematical equivalence going to reduce the number of Members of Parliament in constituency numbers is a hobgoblin of very small in our country by 50 by using our majority to do so”? minds indeed. We should be big enough to accept We would say, “It may well be sensible to reduce or certain anomalies in our constitutional system without increase the number of Members of Parliament in recoiling with shrieks of “unfair, unfair”. There is no your country, but presumably there is some sort of such thing as a fair system, because what is unfair to independent process by which the number is to be the noble Lord, Lord Maclennan, whose speech I assessed”. largely agreed with, is fair to me; and vice versa. There The number of Members of Parliament in this is no such thing as an ideal fair system which is just to country has fluctuated over a period of 60 or 70 years. be grasped and which ordinary reasonable people That fluctuation has always been as a result of would sit down and agree with. Ça n’existe pas, it recommendations of the Boundary Commission. It is never will, and we should accept anomalies. a very dangerous precedent for a majority in the Earlier in this debate, one noble Lord talked about House of Commons, and then a practical political his difficulties in visiting a part of his constituency majority in this House, to push forward a change in which was an island. When I first represented Dudley, the number of Members of the House of Commons. it was an island. Even if there was not some independent justification Noble Lords: Oh! for the reduction from 650 to 600, is there some intellectual justification for the reduction from 650 to Lord Gilbert: Oh yes it was. The centre of Dudley 600? How many of your Lordships were present when was a part of Worcestershire that was wholly surrounded the Leader of this House, the noble Lord, Lord by Staffordshire. I represented a constituency called Strathclyde, gave as the justification that it was a nice, Dudley, but which was actually and simultaneously round number? There is no intellectual justification Dudley and Stourbridge. The country got by quite and no independent justification of any sort whatsoever. well with that, except rather inconveniently at The noble Lord, Lord Maclennan, whom I respect for electioneering time when my wife and I swapped ends. the work he did in pioneering the way for constitutional In the mornings, I was in Dudley while she was in change, says sometimes you just have to bite the bullet Stourbridge, and vice versa in the afternoons and and go for it; it is leadership that matters. We have evenings. However, the principle was exactly the same never done that in this country since 1944 in relation as that adumbrated by my noble friend. Surely to god to how our democracy is based. this country is big enough to accept a few minor In 1944 a Speaker’s Conference set up the current anomalies and have something like the Isle of Wight method for determining constituencies and the number with a much bigger electorate, if it wants that. The of Members of Parliament. That was given effect in an idea that we should try to produce equivalence in Act of 1949. There was a further Act in 1954 which numbers of constituents—with all the consequences gave effect to a consensus that there should not be too that it produces—is quite absurd. radical changes in the number of Members of Parliament. There were further changes in 1986 by a Government Lord Falconer of Thoroton: My Lords, this is a very led by Mrs Thatcher—the noble Baroness, Lady important amendment and is the inevitable consequence Thatcher—which we, the Labour Party, broadly of doing what the constitutional committees in both supported. Further changes were introduced in 1992 Houses of this Parliament have complained about. by a Government led by Mr John Major, which we The chairman of the Political and Constitutional broadly supported. There was one occasion in which Reform Select Committee in the Commons issued a jiggery-pokery was attempted by a Government and report on 2 August which stated: that was in 1969 by a Government led by Harold “Yourlegislative timetable has put me and my committee in an Wilson and the Labour Party. What happened was extremely difficult position. When the House agreed to establish that this House rejected the Bill that sought to tamper the committee, it did so, in the words of the Deputy Leader of the with a boundary revision. House, ‘to ensure that the House is able to scrutinise the work of the Deputy Prime Minister’. In the case of these two bills”— So do not tell us that Parliament has not proceeded one of them is this Bill— by way of consensus; Parliament has behaved exceptionally “you have denied us any adequate opportunity to”, well. I think that it is a disgrace that there is absolute scrutinise. Our own Constitution Committee said: silence from the other side, as without independent “In general we regard it as a matter of principle that proposals justification and without intellectual justification a for major constitutional reform should be subject to prior public Leader of this House treats this House and the consultation and pre-legislative scrutiny. We recognise that there parliamentary system with contempt by saying it is a 1217 Parliamentary Voting System[10 JANUARY 2011] Parliamentary Voting System 1218 nice, round number. I see Back-Benchers nodding that populations which are much higher than the electoral it is a perfectly respectable argument, but it is not; it is register, those constituencies should, in some way, a disgraceful argument. reflect that increase in the size of the population. For example, just as we have a geographical limit because 6.15 pm we think it is too far for an MP to travel all around the There are two alternatives. The alternative that was constituency, is there a population limit above the electoral forced upon me when I sought to reform the role of register which should have some effect on the size of the Lord Chancellor was that this House spent 18 months constituencies? looking at that Bill and a much better Bill came out at Thirdly, the purpose of the deviation figure of 5 per the end. A better alternative would be to do what the cent from the electoral quota is to ensure that two cross-party committees say is the right thing to constituencies are broadly the same size. That would do, which is to have proper consideration of the Bill. lead to a difference in the size of constituencies of Perhaps we could go through some of the issues which about 7,000 if 76,000 is the average size of a constituency. have not been considered at all. First, what is the right The purpose is to get rid of what is described as the size of our Parliament? What has been said on this malproportion factor. Published work, in particular side of the Committee, as well as by a whole range of by Thrasher and Rallings, and by Lewis Baston, suggests independent commentators, is that the way to determine that a deviation figure of 10 rather than 5 per cent the right size of the House of Commons is by identifying would have the same effect in reducing the malproportion what you want your Members of Parliament to do. figure yet at the same time allow one, in determining That has two aspects to it: first, what they do as constituencies, to keep communities together and not constituency MPs and, secondly, what best makes the have the radical effect that the government proposals House of Commons function well. Some work should would have. What work have the Government done on be done on that. whether 5 or 10 per cent would make a substantial I ask the wholly admirable noble and learned Lord, difference to malproportion? Has any research been Lord Wallace of Tankerness, what work has been done on that? What effect on, for example, crossing done on that? What consideration have the Government county boundaries would a 10 per cent as opposed to given to that issue? What foreign examples, if any, a 5 per cent deviation have? The Government will not have they sought to guide them in relation to that? be able to answer all these questions; I am asking What effect do they think that an increase by 25 per about the research that is being done on them. cent in the population over the last 25 years, when Thirdly, what effect will this have on the Executive? there has been only a 4 per cent increase in the number Reducing the size of the House of Commons from 650 of Members of Parliament, has had on the work that to 600 will increase the size of the Executive and they do? Do they agree with the implication of the reduce the number of Back-Benchers. Is it the intention noble Lord, Lord Mawhinney, that it has had absolutely of the Government to stick with that? If so, what no difference whatsoever on the workload of MPs? effect will that have on Parliament as a place to hold As the former MP for Great Yarmouth, Tony Wright, the Executive to account? said last year, today we need to ask the question as to Fourthly, what will be the effect of removing local what Members of Parliament are for, not least because boundary reviews that can be conducted in person? they are asking it themselves and others are asking it These reviews have had a 64 per cent effect on changing of them. Peter Facey of Unlock Democracy told the constituency boundaries. What work has been done to Political and Constitutional Reform Committee of the determine the effect on the reliability and acceptance other place: of the boundaries that removal of the reviews will “I would have preferred a debate about what the function of have? the House of Commons should be and what the appropriate number of MPs should be for that function and then having the If the Government will not answer those questions debate about the number of constituencies”. or have not done the work, the questions should be answered by somebody. This is not a great reform like Lord Mawhinney: Just for the record, I made no the 1832 Act, as the Prime Minister said; it needs work such implication as the noble and learned Lord has doing on it. The effect of the amendment of my noble attributed to me. The point that I was seeking to make friend Lord Wills is that that work can be done. As my was that, whether the number of constituents is 65,000 noble friend Lord Boateng said, our democracy is or 90,000, it is perfectly possible for a Member of something that we rightly prize. The idea of rushing Parliament to handle that level of workload. into this change, which has the support only of one side of the Houses of Parliament—let alone of either Lord Falconer of Thoroton: I apologise. I misunderstood the country or the rest of the world—is wrong. It is what the noble Lord said. Obviously, further work not an acceptable justification to say that the Tory would need to be done. I am happy to say that when I party agreed it with the Liberal Democrats between said further work was required, the noble Lord nodded— Friday and Tuesday after the latest general election. that is the point that I am making. First, what is the That looks like the worst sort of political gerrymandering. workload on a Member of Parliament and what is the I ask the Government to reconsider and to give ground right size for Parliament in relation to that consideration? in relation to an independent look at the changes that Secondly, what should be the basis of determining they are making. the constituencies? Of course, I think that it should be the electoral register, though there is an issue about The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Wallace population. There is a respectable view that says, of Tankerness): My Lords, first I thank the noble where you have constituencies which have very significant Lord, Lord Wills, for introducing a debate that has 1219 Parliamentary Voting System[LORDS] Parliamentary Voting System 1220

[LORD WALLACE OF TANKERNESS] My second point is that there would not only be a given rise to a considerable number of important delay. If the 2015 election is to be fought in England contributions. I am not sure that I can address all of on boundaries that took as their electoral registration them, but I will do my best to pick up most of the base the year 2000—15 years previously—can anyone salient points. It is clear that the debate on this amendment suggest that that is a constitutional principle that we has touched on many issues that will inevitably come should seek to uphold in this House? We wish to make up as we go through the Bill. Future amendments have progress with this so that we can have a boundary already been tabled that deal with some of them. I review that will deliver its report and be in effect by the hope to explain the principles that underlie the proposals 2015 election. that we will debate further. I hope also to explain why the proposals are reasonable and why a committee of Lord Harris of Haringey: I am grateful to the noble inquiry is unnecessary. and learned Lord for giving way, albeit slightly after It is clear that the amendment would slow down the the point that he was making. He said, on behalf of proposed reform of our political process and system. himself and the noble Lord, Lord McNally, that no It is highly unlikely that the proposals in this amendment political modelling had been done on the implications would be in place in time for the next election. There of this reform. I would have been very surprised had would be a three-year deadline to report, six months he told us that the Civil Service had done an exercise to draft measures giving effect to the recommendations, on behalf of Ministers that had demonstrated and then time to legislate. That would be only for the what the political consequences of these changes would legislation that set new rules for conducting boundary be. However, is he also giving us an assurance that reviews. The reviews themselves would then need to be such an exercise was not prepared either by a special carried out. Therefore, even if the rules were in place adviser—a political adviser in the relevant government before the next election, the new boundaries could department—or by the political parties concerned? come into effect only at the election after that. I do not want to suggest that the political purpose Lord Wallace of Tankerness: The noble Lord, Lord of this has been to kick the Government’s proposals Harris, is absolutely right about the Civil Service. It into touch, although my noble friend Lord Tyler referred would be improper for it to do this, and it has not done to previous committees of inquiry that delayed and it. Nor are the noble Lord, Lord McNally, and I aware postponed for many years what were seen by many as of any special adviser who has done it. I cannot speak desirable reforms, and there was a general groundswell for the Conservative Party, and while I may be able to of support for his point on this side of the House. I speak for the Liberal Democrats, I honestly do not also want to knock on the head the idea that I have know what the answer is. I simply reaffirm the point accused noble Lords opposite of filibustering. The that the principle here is one vote, one value. It would only complaint I would make is about the time be a rash person who would predict the political taken up by them complaining that I might accuse fallout from this reform. them of filibustering. I also take great exception to the suggestion that the proposal is partisan. I do not Lord Lipsey: How does the noble and learned Lord believe that the opposition case stacks up. The noble square what he is saying about this part of the Bill Baroness, Lady McDonagh, pointed out that the issue being about one vote with one value, with the argument of the size of constituencies applied as much to that he and his Lib Dem colleagues have put forward Conservative constituencies as to Labour ones. One for years that the only votes in our system that have cannot on the one hand say that reform will have the value are those in marginal seats, because in all other same impact on Labour and Conservative constituencies seats the votes do not count at all because of the huge and on the other say that what we are trying to do is majorities? partisan. I will pick up a point made by the noble Lord, Lord Lord Wallace of Tankerness: We are debating the Wills, about his freedom of information application. I earlier part of the Bill and are not going to debate apologise that the noble Lord has not yet received a electoral systems. That would be beyond the scope of reply to his request. I will seek to ensure that he this amendment. What we have done in Part 1 of the receives one as soon as possible. However, my noble Bill will lead to a better system. That is my personal friend Lord McNally, who is sitting with me, has view, and the view of my party. The Government as a indicated that as far as we are aware no work has been whole will not take a view in the referendum. I have a done on any kind of partisan measurement of what a number of important points to make and would like new size of 600 for the House of Commons would to do justice to them. bring about. No modelling has been done on that basis. I also say at the outset that amid all the outrage 6.30 pm that we have heard from the other side, one would think that it was a constitutional outrage to support Lord Soley: I understand the noble and learned the principle of one vote, one value. That is what is Lord’s problem in that he is a member of the Liberal enshrined in this part of the Bill; one vote should Democrat party but is speaking for a coalition have one value in all parts of the United Kingdom. I Government. The idea of reducing the size of the do not believe that to be a constitutional outrage, House of Commons to the suggested figure is not new. except in Orkney and Shetland and the Western Isles. I It was first put by the Conservative Party in 2004 and am happy to argue that, as the noble Lord’s party did reiterated in 2009 and 2010. The two reasons given in the Scotland Act in the case of Orkney and Shetland. were, first, that the Tories did not get sufficient seats 1221 Parliamentary Voting System[10 JANUARY 2011] Parliamentary Voting System 1222 from the system with the current number, and, secondly, On Second Reading my noble friend noted the the cost. Those are the only two reasons that were dangers of a perfectionist approach, which perhaps is given until the general election. They are in writing in the approach summed up in the amendment tabled by a number of Conservative Party documents. the noble Lord, Lord Wills, when he said: “The Bill is not a panacea. It is not some holy grail in the Lord Wallace of Tankerness: The noble Lord rightly scripture of political re-engagement, but it is a good start”.—[Official reminds me that I am speaking on behalf of the Report, 15/11/10; col. 594.]. coalition Government, and I reiterate that we have not Again I say to noble Lords opposite that it is a great done any political modelling on the possible political pity they did not start the process when they were outcome of a House of Commons of 600. given such a long opportunity to do so. The point was made by the noble Lord, Lord Gilbert, that there is no Lord Howarth of Newport: My Lords— perfection of fairness; one person’s fairness may be Lord Wallace of Tankerness: I am not sure that I seen as another’s unfairness. I believe that the Bill, by will ever be able to answer all the points. establishing one vote of equal value across the country, goes a long way to getting a better perception and Lord Howarth of Newport: The noble and learned reality of fairness. I would add that the British Academy Lord has dismissed suggestions as to why the Government report found that the new rules set out in the Bill, might have alighted on the figure of 600 parliamentary “are a very substantial improvement on those currently implemented”, constituencies. He has explained why they did not and that, make that choice, but what is the rationale for that “they have a clear hierarchy and are not contradictory”. figure? A number of noble Lords, including the noble and Lord Wallace of Tankerness: I thank the noble Lord learned Lord, Lord Falconer, and the noble Lord, for that question, because he has illustrated that if he Lord Howarth, asked how the figure of 600 was had not intervened I might have reached that point by reached. We have never suggested that there was anything now. I hope noble Lords will allow me to answer that magical or ideal about a House of Commons of important point, which was made by a number of 600 any more than the current size of 650 is ideal. It is noble Lords, including the noble Lord, Lord Howarth. flawed legislation that has allowed the size of the I hope to respond to these points as we proceed. House of Commons to creep up over time. The noble Lord, Lord Wills, has made an ambitious Lord Bach: The noble and learned Lord says that in attempt to balance the effect of almost every electoral the past Parliament has directed certain matters regarding procedure against every other one. His amendment the redistribution of boundaries, and he is right about asks us to wait longer to turn the Bill from a Bill that is that, but does he agree that no Parliament has ever set workable and achievable into a deeply analysed but an exact number, such as the 600 in this Bill? No almost impossible one that would then have to be Government have ever done that. In the 1986 legislation taken forward. As I have said, our objectives are clear and other previous legislation, Governments have left and we believe that they are attainable. We want one the Boundary Commission to set the exact number as elector to have one vote throughout the United Kingdom. a result of its inquiry. This Government in this Bill are By contrast, the amendment promises a comprehensive trying to set a number of 600. That is unique, is it not? overhaul of the whole system that we are considering, including the maintenance of the union and the Baroness McDonagh: May I add to that? relationship between the two Houses of Parliament that might produce a magic number of electors and Noble Lords: Order. the optimum constituency size. Lord Wallace of Tankerness: I will give way to the The current rules by which the Boundary Commission noble Baroness in a moment. The noble Lord is factually carries out its work have not been considered by a correct but as I was about to say when he intervened, committee since the 1940s. They have been changed the legislation in place has allowed the number to on a number of occasions since then by the decision of creep up and up. The only occasion on which it has Parliament through legislation. There is a clear precedent come down since 1945 has been post devolution to for adjusting boundary rules in the light of experience. Scotland. The noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, indicated The changes have included important elements, such that the noble Baroness, Lady Liddell of Coatdyke, as a longer period of reviews of 10 to 15 years rather brought forward the order, quite properly, to reduce than three to seven years. It was right for a Speaker’s the number of Scottish constituencies from 72 to 59. Conference to determine the basis for boundary reviews Under this proposal, we are going even further. That is when that happened for the first time back in the the only occasion when the number has come down. 1940s. When the Boundary Commission has asked in The fact that no number has been set has allowed the its reports for the rules to be made more coherent, numbers to creep up and up over the years. Parliament has not asked a conference, a committee or an inquiry to consider what an independent—I stress Baroness McDonagh: I want to add that not only independent—Boundary Commission has asked for. has the number has crept up but the electorate has It is right for the debate to take place in Parliament. increased from 33 million to 42 million in this period. Even the 1944 Speaker’s Conference recommended that electoral equality across the constituencies of the Lord Wallace of Tankerness: Indeed, but the point I United Kingdom should be an overriding principle. was about to make about the present size of the House We should allow the Boundary Commission to commence of Commons is that it is the largest directly elected that work without delay. national chamber in the European Union, and at 1223 Parliamentary Voting System[LORDS] Parliamentary Voting System 1224

[LORD WALLACE OF TANKERNESS] To elaborate further, under our proposals, the 600 it would still be relatively big. It would have fewer 1 December 2009 register suggests that the electoral than the chambers of some comparable countries. The quota for the United Kingdom would be about 76,000. Bundestag, for example, has 622 members and the More than one-third of existing constituencies are Italian Chamber of Deputies has a similar number. As already within 5 per cent either side of that illustrative indicated in an exchange between the noble Lords, quota, so the impact of our proposals will see Lord Foulkes and Lord Wills, each country has its constituencies of a size well within existing norms. own internal arrangements, be it some federal situation However, if the House were to have, for example, as in Germany or the United States, or devolution in 500 Members, that would push the size of the average our own country. UK seat above 90,000, and only three existing seats would be within 5 per cent of that quota. For that size Lord Bach: The noble and learned Lord said that to become commonplace would perhaps be too great a the numbers have gone up. I am sure that he knows departure from what Members and the public are that the number of Members of Parliament who were accustomed to. We therefore thought that 600 would elected in 1945 was 640, with a population, as my seem to strike the right balance without reducing by noble friend just said, of 33 million. The number too much and having regard to the fact that one-third elected in 2010 was 650, with a population that is of existing seats would be within 5 per cent either way much higher than that. Will the noble and learned of the existing norm. In addition, a slightly smaller Lord admit that those figures are correct? House will mean that savings can be made without, in the Government’s view, losing the capacity of individual Lord Wallace of Tankerness: I have no reason to Members or the Chamber as a whole to perform their doubt the noble Lord, Lord Bach, but will he accept functions. that, with the exception of the reduction of Scottish Other points have been raised: for example, the fact Members post the 1945 election, the numbers have that that should be linked to reform of your Lordships’ gone up on every occasion? House. I have no doubt that there will be ample opportunity to work out the implications for the reform Lord Wills: My Lords— of your Lordships’ House when the draft Bill is brought forward. An important point was made first by the Lord Wallace of Tankerness: In fairness, it is the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, and picked up by several noble Lord’s amendment, but I want to address the other noble Lords, including the noble and learned points that have been raised. Lord, Lord Falconer of Thoroton. That is the relationship between the Executive and the elected House, the Lord Wills: I do not want to delay progress unduly, other place, if the number of MPs is reduced but not but the noble and learned Lord misrepresented, or the number of Ministers. misunderstood, the exchange between me and my The Government indicated in the other place that noble friend Lord Foulkes. The point was not that one we agree that that is indeed an issue to be considered, country has a better system than another. Those other but we do not believe that it is one that needs to be countries—Germany and the United States—all had a resolved in the context of the Bill. Reduction in the profound, rigorous public debate on the right size of the House will not take effect until 2015, and arrangements for their constitution. They have written we should therefore consider that issue in the light of constitutions. We are not having that debate now decisions on, among other things, the size and composition about this Bill, and we should. That was the point of of a reformed second Chamber. Historically, there has the exchange and what we are asking the Minister to not been a consistent relationship between the size of consider. We want a proper public debate on these the House and the number of Ministers within it. The crucial issues. number of Ministers in the Commons will be determined by what is needed to carry out the Government’s Lord Wallace of Tankerness: The point that I was parliamentary business, and will not be affected by the making about the exchange between the noble Lords, change in the size of the Chamber. It is not clear that Lord Wills and Lord Foulkes, was that a point was legislation is the answer. If the issue is the size of the made about the Senate having 100 members and the Government’s payroll vote, there are ways to address US House of Representatives having approximately that without legislation—for example, a reduction in 434. The noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, pointed out that the number of PPSs. there are also state legislatures in 50 states. We are not comparing like with like. I took the point made by the Lord Falconer of Thoroton: That was an absolutely noble Lord, Lord Wills, that international comparisons riveting piece of information that the noble and learned take you only so far. The noble Lord, Lord Snape, Lord, Lord Wallace of Tankerness, dropped into the made the point about the word “gerrymandering” conversation—which is that, as I understand it, the coming from the United States and seemed to suggest, size of this House will determine whether the Government although I am sure he did not mean to, that the are to reduce the number of Ministers. Have I Boundary Commission would somehow be heavied by misunderstood what the noble and learned Lord said? the Government of the day. In the United States, as If I have, can he please explain it? Is it better if this the commentaries following the elections in November House is bigger or smaller for the size of the Executive? made clear, the new boundaries will be set by the state legislatures, not by an independent boundary commission. Lord Wallace of Tankerness: I indicated that an That is the fundamental difference. I hope that noble important factor would be the size of the reformed Lords will accept that. House, because if the overall number of Ministers is 1225 Parliamentary Voting System[10 JANUARY 2011] Parliamentary Voting System 1226 to be retained, it may be considered preferable to draw the electoral roll but who are not—is far more likely to them from the elected House, with tested accountability have an effect for the general election of 2020 than mechanisms, rather than increasing the ministerial setting up a committee of inquiry that might take ages numbers elsewhere, including in this House. to report and then to have legislation following on the The noble and learned Lord raised that issue, although back of that. We are more likely to achieve what is a the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, raised it first. It is an perfectly laudable and proper aim of ensuring that as important issue. It is an issue which the Government many people who are entitled to vote as can be are on have indicated needs to be addressed, but not in the the electoral roll by the way that we are going about it. Bill. There are other implications. For example, if That is more likely to lead to success. Ministers were not to be in the other place, would they The noble Lord’s amendment also questions whether automatically be in this place? Would they have voting equally weighted votes should be given priority over rights in this place? There are a whole host of issues other factors. We are aware of and sensitive to other which are perhaps more relevant to the debate about reasons—the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, and others the constitution of the second Chamber in the context mentioned the importance of local ties and of a reduced House of Commons than to be dealt communities—for proposing exceptions to the principle. with in this debate. An identity with or affiliation to certain areas of community is something that many people feel to be 6.45 pm of considerable importance. Those of us in this House Another consideration which the amendment addresses who have been Members of the other place feel that in is the time taken to complete the boundary reviews. As particular. We acknowledge that there is a strength of I said, the issue at hand here is simple. Reviews take feeling, and we would certainly want those with a local too long, meaning that boundaries become out of interest to make representations to the Boundary date. The Government propose five-yearly reviews, Commission in relation to local ties and for the Boundary with the first review to report in 2013. That leads on to Commission to be able to take them into consideration. another issue raised by noble Lords, such as the noble The Bill will allow for constituencies to vary in the Lords, Lord Campbell-Savours, Lord Harris of Haringey, number of electors by as much as 10 per cent—that is, and Lord Wills, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord 5 per cent either way—of the UK electoral quota. Falconer. That is whether we might use a population That will allow the commission to take local factors base rather than an electorate base to draw up into account. We will no doubt debate possible exceptions: constituencies. The electoral register has always been I am sure that amendments have already been tabled used for that task. I took the noble and learned Lord, to allow us that debate. Lord Falconer, to indicate that that is still his basic Another issue raised was workload. It is not the position. The 1986 Act, which contains the current case that workload is a factor taken into account by rules, passed through Parliament without the intervention the Boundary Commission at the moment. One speech of a committee of inquiry.The secretary of the Boundary suggested that somehow the Government excluding Commission for Scotland gave evidence to the Political that was another manifestation of evil. It would be a and Constitutional Reform Committee where he discussed judgment of Solomon for any independent inquiry to the practical problems with using population. I cannot work out what is a relevant workload for a particular see what an inquiry of potentially three years could Member of Parliament. The noble Lord, Lord Martin resolve here that previous Acts of Parliament and the of Springburn, mentioned the high asylum-seeker numbers opinion of an independent Boundary Commission in the constituency which he formerly represented cannot. with great distinction. I remember as a Scottish Minister once visiting his constituency on an asylum-seeker Lord Wills: My Lords— issue; I know precisely what he means. However, as a Lord Wallace of Tankerness: The noble Lord will representative of a landlocked constituency, he never get an opportunity to reply. had to deal with an oil tanker carrying 84,000 tonnes of crude oil crashing and spilling its oil in the middle That does not mean to say that that is not an of his constituency. There are different things which important issue. We have debated it in the context of different Members of Parliament have, by the very Part 1. As the Committee will know, the Government nature of their constituencies, to deal with. It would are committed to taking forward the proposals already be more than a judgment of Solomon to try to weigh set in train—by the noble Lord, Lord Wills, himself—on up what the different workload was for different Members individual registration. My right honourable friend of Parliament. the Deputy Prime Minister has also indicated that there will be a pilot scheme to allow local authorities to data match with other sets of data to try to get a Lord Martin of Springburn: I did have the Forth better understanding and a better way to identify and Clyde Canal to worry about. those who are not on the electoral roll. To think that to fight an election in 2015 on an Lord Wallace of Tankerness: And the mind boggles electoral roll that has as its basis the electorate in the as to what kind of issues that may have given rise to. year 2000 is in some way better defies rational That probably just proves the point that every person consideration. What the Bill proposes—a rolling review who has been a Member of the other place can say every five years and efforts which we are making why their constituency was that bit different. which, I think, will be widely supported across the I turn to the specific point raised by the noble Committee, to encourage individual registration and Lords, Lord Touhig and Lord Elystan-Morgan, about to identify where there are people who ought to be on their concern about the union. I am as passionately 1227 Parliamentary Voting System[LORDS] Parliamentary Voting System 1228

[LORD WALLACE OF TANKERNESS] with the same determination and integrity as the concerned about the union as they are. The important noble Baroness. An acknowledgement that it had point to remember is that the reform means that a vote been done by an independent Boundary Commission in Cardiff will have an equal value to a vote in Belfast, would command support right across both Houses of Glasgow, Edinburgh or London. To me, that does not Parliament. undermine the union; giving an equal value to a vote A number of noble Lords made the point about in Cardiff, Edinburgh, Belfast and London will, we how we bring this together. I conclude by indicating hope, bring the union closer together. The noble Baroness, that the Government have an ambitious programme Lady Liddell of Coatdyke, indicated that she brought for political and constitutional reform. We are keen forward an order that was of significant cost to the that Parliament has adequate time to debate all the Labour Party in terms of the number of seats in proposals, and I have not complained that this debate Scotland following devolution. Indeed, if this Bill goes has taken so long. Important issues have been aired. through, there will be a further decrease, but I have to The committee is interested in how the Bill makes the be honest and say that I do not really remember the political system more transparent and accountable, rafters falling in in Scotland. Indeed, people thought but our proposals will give the people a say in determining that it was important. My party argued within the the method of electing Members of Parliament under Scottish Constitutional Convention that there ought Part 1, which they have never had the chance to to be a reduction in the number of Scottish MPs at express a view on before. It is with the people in mind Westminster if we got a Scottish Parliament dealing that we want to equalise the size of constituencies to with a whole range of domestic issues. When it comes give their votes more equal weight. With these thoughts to workload, how are we going to evaluate the workload and reflections, I ask the noble Lord to withdraw his of an English MP vis-à-vis a Welsh MP or a Scottish amendment. MP? Is there going to be a differential? I do not think that anyone has suggested that we should have different MPs in terms of their quality. Lord Wills: My Lords, this has been a significant debate. Everyone who has sat through the past three The question of the Scottish Constitutional Convention and a half hours would agree that everyone who has which the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, asked me to spoken has made an important contribution to public address was partly addressed by my noble friend Lord discourse on these important constitutional issues. Maclennan of Rogart. The noble Lord’s mind is perhaps However, in many ways the most significant speeches playing tricks. It was not facilitated by a Labour are those that were not made. As has already been Government prior to legislating for the Scottish pointed out, apart from a handful of brief interventions Parliament. The Scottish Constitutional Convention and one speech which seemed not to have been was established under a Conservative Government. It premeditated but to have been motivated by the rather not only did not include the Conservative Party; it did noble intention to fill the great silence echoing across not include the Scottish National Party either. That the Chamber from the other Benches, there was nothing was through no fault of the convention, I hasten to from the Liberal Democrat or Conservative Back Benches. add, but because those parties chose not to join it. I wonder just how it is that all those distinguished There is no way in which I can say that the number Peers sitting on the government Benches have nothing of 129 seats in the Scottish Parliament was a consensus to say about these crucial constitutional issues. As arrived at by all the parties. One day, I will perhaps tell many noble friends have pointed out, that is revealing. the House how the noble Lord, Lord Robertson of Then there was the speech that the Minister did not Port Ellen, and I reached the number of 129 but if I make. I would have hoped that he would have shown do—“Not now”says the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde—it some recognition of the potential risks of rushing probably means that the number of 600 will hit the through this legislation in the way that the Government heights of scientific measurement compared to how are doing. There are risks. These are very technical that was done. issues. They are complex and relate together, and the consequences are potentially profound. They have not Baroness Liddell of Coatdyke: One day, I will be been considered. Over and over again we have heard it very interested to know how the figure of 129 was admitted by Ministers. These issues have not been arrived at. There are many different versions of the thoroughly considered. My noble and learned friend story. The point I would make to the noble and Lord Falconer asked for evidence of the deliberations learned Lord is that when we came to the point of and discussions. It could not have been deliberated laying the order that reduced the number of MPs upon or researched with any seriousness in the timescale coming to Westminster, it was done with broad agreement available to the Government. That is what is needed. across the House. This is the very point that I and These signal a profound change in our constitutional others are trying to make to the coalition: if you arrangements, yet the Minister has avoided any recognition proceed with consensus, or even seek to achieve consensus, that there are risks involved in proceeding in the way you end up with a much more robust constitutional that he has. settlement at the end of the day. Nor did he produce any serious argument against this amendment. The only argument that he produced Lord Wallace of Tankerness: I sincerely hope that is that there is a need for speed, but what is this need when the Boundary Commission produces its review, for speed? This amendment does not kick it in to the if this Bill goes on to the statute book and the Boundary long grass. I respectfully disagree with the noble Lord, Commission review takes place, whoever is the Minister Lord Maclennan. It is not inevitable that a commission responsible for bringing forward the order will do so of inquiry will mean that it is going to get bogged 1229 Parliamentary Voting System[10 JANUARY 2011] Blood and Blood Products 1230 down and will never happen. It is simply a question of best efforts of the NHS to restore people to health political will. If the Government have the political will actually consigned so many to a life of illness and to drive this forward now, surely in just three years, hardship. As the current Health Secretary, and on within the lifetime of this Parliament, they can muster behalf of Governments extending back to the 1970s, I the same political will again. It is entirely a matter for begin by saying how sorry I am that this happened and them. There is nothing inevitable or inexorable about express my deep regret for the pain and misery that this getting bogged down if this amendment were many have suffered as a result. accepted. The Minister produced no good arguments. It is now almost two decades since the full extent of I would have hoped that at the very least he might the infection was established and two years since the have done what my noble friend Lord Grocott urged independent inquiry led by the noble and learned him to do, which is what Ministers since time immemorial Lord, Lord Archer of Sandwell, reported. The majority have done, which is to nod wisely and sagely and say of the noble and learned Lord’s recommendations are that they will at least consider the issues raised by this in place, as are programmes of ex gratia payments, amendment and perhaps return to it on Report. But administered by the Macfarlane Trust and the Eileen he did not even do that, and I am surprised. I had not Trust for the HIV infected and by the Skipton Fund expected to push this to a vote because I had thought for those with hepatitis C. But significant anomalies that I would have a more encouraging response from remain and I pay tribute to the noble and learned the Minister. But I did not get it, so I am now in two Lord, Lord Archer, to other noble Lords, and to minds. On the one hand, I think that the frailty of the honourable Members from all parties for highlighting Government’s position has been so exposed in this them. debate that it should perhaps be tested in the Lobby. In October, my honourable friend the Member for But I am not without hope, so the other part of me Guildford announced a review into the current support still hopes that even now the Government may reconsider arrangements to look at reducing the differences between their position. I hope that they will recognise that their the hepatitis C and HIV financial support schemes current position is so bereft of principle and so damaging and to explore other issues raised by Members during to their credibility, not just in this Chamber or the the recent Back-Bench debate, including prescription other place, but among the people of this country who charges and wider support for those affected. We also deserve and demand a say in the arrangements by asked clinical experts to advise on the impact of hepatitis which they will choose the people to represent them in C infection on a person’s health and quality of life and Parliament. I hope that that will give them pause and to consider whether an increase in financial support that between now and Report they will reconsider and was needed. see whether there is a way that they can engage seriously My honourable friend the Member for Guildford with these issues. met with representative groups to understand the impact Finally, I remind the Minister that I am not seeking that these infections were having on people’s lives. She to substitute my judgment for that of the Government also met many right honourable and honourable Members on all these important issues. I am simply asking for and noble Lords who have been strong advocates on an impartial, fair and independent process to resolve behalf of those affected. these issues within a timescale that most people would We have now considered the findings of the clinical recognise as reasonable. In the end, I have decided that expert group and accept that the needs of those with I will withdraw the amendment in the hope that the advanced liver disease from hepatitis C merit higher Government will reconsider. If they do not, I am levels of support. At present, the amount of money afraid that we will have to return to all these issues on paid to this group depends on the seriousness of the Report. In the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw the infection. amendment. There are two stages at which the Skipton Fund will Amendment 54ZA withdrawn. make a payment. The first is when the person develops chronic hepatitis C infection. At this point, a person is House resumed. eligible for a stage 1 relief payment—currently a lump sum payment of £20,000. Some may reach a second Blood and Blood Products stage of developing advanced liver disease, such as cirrhosis or cancer, or require a liver transplant. They Statement then become eligible for a stage 2 payment, which is currently another lump sum payment, of £25,000. 6.59 pm Under the new arrangements that we will introduce, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, this second-stage payment will increase from £25,000 Department of Health (Earl Howe): My Lords, I should to £50,000. This will apply retrospectively. So if a now like to repeat a Statement made earlier by my person has already received an initial stage 2 payment right honourable friend the Secretary of State for of £25,000, they will now get another £25,000 lump Health in another place. The Statement is as follows. sum, bringing the total to £50,000. In addition to this, “With permission, I should like to make a Statement we will also introduce a new, annual payment of on hepatitis C and HIV infected blood. £12,800 for those with hepatitis C reaching the second Mr Speaker, what happened during the 1970s and stage. This is the same amount that those who were 1980s when thousands of patients contracted hepatitis infected with HIV receive. C and HIV from NHS blood and blood products is Those infected with both HIV and hepatitis C from one of the great tragedies in modern healthcare. It is contaminated blood will now receive two annual payments desperately sad to recall that during this period the of £12,800 if they meet the stage 2 criteria—one 1231 Blood and Blood Products[LORDS] Blood and Blood Products 1232

[EARL HOWE] progress. However, we believe that these new arrangements payment for each infection—along with the respective could provide from £100 million to £130 million-worth lump sums. All annual payments made to both those of additional support over the course of this Parliament. so infected with HIV and those with hepatitis C will All payments will be disregarded for calculating now be uprated annually in line with the consumer income tax and eligibility for other state benefits, prices index to keep pace with living costs. including social care, and while these changes apply We know that some of those infected with HIV or only to those infected in England I will be speaking to hepatitis C from NHS blood and blood products face the devolved Administrations to see if we can extend particular hardship and poverty. Those infected with this across the UK. HIV can already apply for additional discretionary Today’s announcements cannot remove the pain payments from the Eileen Trust and the Macfarlane and distress that these individuals and families have Trust, but no equivalent arrangements are in place for suffered over the years, but I hope that these measures those infected with hepatitis C. Therefore, we will now can at least bring some comfort, some consolation and establish a new charitable trust to make similar payments perhaps some closure for those affected. I commend to those with hepatitis C who are in serious financial this Statement to the House”. need. These payments will be available for those at all My Lords, that concludes the Statement. stages of their illness, based on individual circumstances. Discretionary payments will also be available to support 7.08 pm dependants of those infected with hepatitis C, including dependants of those who have since died. Again, this Baroness Thornton: My Lords, perhaps I may start will echo the arrangements in place for those infected by wishing the Minister and other noble Lords a very with HIV and enable us to give more to those in happy new year and by commending the Minister for greatest need. his patience: he finally got to make the Statement. I welcome the Statement and congratulate the Minister We must also ensure that those infected through and his colleagues on making progress in building on NHS blood and blood products get the right medical the work that the noble Lord knows we were trying to and psychological support. I can therefore announce do on this important and tragic matter, to which I had two further measures. First, those infected with hepatitis a personal commitment. Of the haemophiliac community, C or HIV will no longer pay for their prescriptions. almost 2,000 of the 5,000 infected people have died in They will now receive the cost of an annual prescription the intervening period. For those with hepatitis C, it prepayment certificate if they are currently charged has become more urgent that the ex gratia payments for prescriptions. Secondly, the representative groups should be reviewed. raised the issue of counselling support for those infected through blood and blood products. We fully recognise This is a campaign about which we know people the emotional distress that they experience. As a result, feel strongly. One of the saddest documents that I have we will provide £300,000 over the next three years, read recently was a letter to the Prime Minister, written allowing for around 6,000 hours of counselling to help in October on behalf of the campaign for all those these groups. infected. It described how about 100 people travelled to London to listen to a debate and to lobby for the While we focus on those still living with infections, day. A number of them were very sick, including a we must also recognise the bereaved families of those double liver transplantee. There were widows, young who have died. At present, no payment can be made to people who had lost their fathers and another person those infected with hepatitis C who passed away before whose son had died only weeks before. They felt very the Skipton Fund was established. This is a source of aggrieved by the business in the other place, which did understandable distress for those who survive them not produce the results that they had expected. A and it is something that we now want to put right. I shocked and saddened group of people struggled down can therefore announce that, until the end of March 2011, the stairs from the Public Gallery to leave Parliament. there will be a window of opportunity where a The letter concluded by saying: posthumous claim of up to £70,000 can be made on “It is not an Act of Parliament that is needed, but an act of behalf of those infected with hepatitis C who died political will”. before 29 August 2003. To an extent, that is what has happened today. Indeed, A single payment of £20,000 will be available if the their disappointment was added to before Christmas individual had reached the first stage of chronic infection when they were expecting the announcement that we and another single payment of £50,000 will be made if now have before us. I particularly welcome the extra their condition had deteriorated to the second stage amounts of money available and the fact that these where they suffered serious liver disease or required a will not be taken into account for the purposes of liver transplant. We will work with the Skipton Fund taxation and means-tested residential social care support, and various patient groups to publicise this new payment but I have some questions for clarification. to those who may benefit. These new payments, which The first question concerns how the money will be will go to the individual’s estate, should help more distributed. The Statement says that a new trust is families to get the support that they deserve. going to be established. Will the Minister expand on Taken together, these announcements represent a how the money is to be distributed through that trust? significant rise in the support available to those affected Will the trust be like the ones that exist at the moment by this tragedy. Putting an exact figure on the package or do the Government envisage something new and is difficult, as there is some uncertainty about how different? I should like some information about how many will be eligible and how their illnesses may the money will be made available and how it will be 1233 Blood and Blood Products[10 JANUARY 2011] Blood and Blood Products 1234 distributed. I would also like some clarification on the victims of this tragedy are already in receipt of free prescription charges, because the Government’s decision prescriptions, there are some who are not. We have to abandon free prescription charges for people with received vociferous representations from them and long-term conditions has obviously impacted on the their representatives. Therefore, we will make arrangements groups that we are referring to. I know that the Minister through one of the charitable trusts, probably the new suggested that the prescription charges will be mitigated, one, to pay those who are eligible a sum equivalent to but can he clarify whether that will cover, for example, the cost of an annual prepayment certificate, so that in those in the early stage of hepatitis C, not only stage 2? practice all their prescriptions will be free of charge. Will it cover everyone encompassed by the different The noble Baroness asked about insurance and stages of these conditions? what consideration we had given to the requests made The areas that I feel are less welcoming concern the by campaigning groups on that score. The review issues that have been discussed in this House on many highlighted to us that making provision for access to occasions to do with considerations about mortgages, insurance was, first, unlikely to represent value for life insurance and travel insurance for people affected money because the administrative costs would be by these conditions. I cannot see anything in the enormous in comparison with the benefits obtained. review that suggests that consideration has been given Also, and crucially, it would have been fraught with to these matters. They form part of the completion difficulty, including administrative complexity. There and closure that is needed. I would also like an assurance is no need to remind the noble Baroness that the from the Minister about support for the Haemophilia current fiscal context makes it even more imperative Society, particularly as I understand that the Government that we achieve value for money in everything that we will be working with the society to help to deliver the do. We judged that it was more important to set up a information programme that is going to be necessary discretionary fund where, if necessary, people who to ensure that people in this community take advantage were in particular hardship could look for additional of the benefit that the Government are offering. support and perhaps fund insurance premiums from My final questions concern where the money to that support. However, an across-the-board arrangement fund this is coming from. If the Government are for insurance premiums, as will be apparent from the successful in persuading Scotland and Wales to expand report that we have published—I should also tell her this scheme, which I hope sincerely they will be, how is that we took advice on this from the Association of that to be funded? That is the question that those British Insurers and various specialist insurers—ruled Administrations will be addressing. However, I very itself out for a number of reasons. much welcome this Statement and I congratulate the We intend support for the Haemophilia Society to Minister and his colleagues on the progress that they continue. The noble Baroness also asked where the have made. money is coming from. There will be a significant immediate cost to the departmental budget during this 7.13 pm current year. I am pleased to say that we have found Earl Howe: My Lords, I am heartened by and savings in our current expenditure for this year, which grateful for the welcome given by the noble Baroness enables us to make room for these payments. We have to this Statement and the package of support that was had this in mind for some considerable time and I am announced in it. We think that it represents a fair and pleased that it has come to fruition. In future years, we reasonable recognition of the suffering that many of have found room in our central budgets for the ongoing these victims endure. We wanted to recognise that and annual payments. I hope, as I said in the Statement, that it will be of As regards Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, some comfort to them and their families that they will obviously it would have been preferable if there could receive better support. have been a UK-wide announcement, but clearly it is The noble Baroness asked me some specific questions. not for us to prescribe to the devolved Administrations She asked me first about the new trust and in what what they should do. However, as I indicated, we are respects it will be different from the trusts that currently talking to them actively and it is up to them to exist. I can say to her that we intend to set up the new consider whether this is something that they wish to charitable trust as quickly as possible. Its primary task do for those infected in hospitals in the various devolved will be to administer the discretionary elements of the regions. payments that we have announced. In the mean time, the payments will begin immediately; in other words, 7.20 pm there will be an in-year pro rata payment for the current financial year where people are due for an Lord Morris of Manchester: My Lords, I have two annual payment, and we can proceed with that speedily. interests to declare, both non-pecuniary: as president As she will see in the paper that we have published, our of the Haemophilia Society, and as the architect of advice is that those who feel that they have a claim the independent public inquiry into the contaminated should contact the Skipton Fund. There will also be a blood disaster headed by my noble and learned friend notice on the department’s website to direct them Lord Archer of Sandwell. appropriately.The new trust will be essentially a charitable Is the Minister aware that, of the 1,241 haemophilia trust with the kind of mandate that we have seen with patients infected with HIV, only 361—29 per cent—are the Macfarlane and Eileen trusts and the Skipton still alive, and that the number of deaths in the hepatitis Fund, but for a different cohort of people. C-infected community is much higher and continues The noble Baroness also asked me about prescription to rise? Is he further aware that, as of now, an estimated charges. What we concluded was that, while many of 2,007 people have died from being treated with 1235 Blood and Blood Products[LORDS] Blood and Blood Products 1236

[LORD MORRIS OF MANCHESTER] Earl Howe: I am very grateful to my noble friend. contaminated NHS blood and blood products? I The window of opportunity referred to in the congratulate the Minister on the progress that he has Statement—until the end of March, which is the best made, but will he now meet the haemophilia community part of three months—should be sufficient to enable and listen again to its plea for a response that is more those with a valid claim to come forward. On the in keeping with the scale of the disaster? whole, we believe that, in the haemophiliac community, the victims’ families know who they are. I acknowledge Earl Howe: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Morris that there is more difficulty with those who were in of Manchester, to whose efforts I pay particular tribute receipt of whole blood, but, again, we believe that the in the context of this debate, as in many other contexts, victims’ families know who those individuals were as has reminded us of the devastating effect of this well. Our job now is to publicise these arrangements tragedy on individuals and families. The previous so that the families are aware of the support that is Government recognised this and significantly improved currently available to them. We think that the window the payments that were available to the victims of this is sufficient. disaster. We felt that there was still further to go, hence My noble friend asked who is to be included in today’s Statement. We have arrived at this point following posthumous claims. One claim per deceased estate will a brief but nevertheless thorough review of the be considered. The deceased person may have left his arrangements, informed by a scientific report which is or her estate to a spouse or, indeed, to charity, but also published today—noble Lords can read the advice whoever it is, the beneficiary of that estate is the that we received—to enable us to understand rather person entitled to come forward to claim the money. better the suffering that these victims endure in clinical We will deal with claims on the basis that the validity terms as well as in human terms. On the basis of that, of the claim is proven in relation to the estate of the we have arrived at the arrangements whose details I deceased person. That is a matter of public record. have repeated. We believe that this is a fair and reasonable package Lord Archer of Sandwell: I thank the noble Earl for of support for these poor victims. We do not intend to repeating the Statement and recognise his readiness to revisit it in the future. I acknowledge that some people listen to and act on representations, but will he also might have different views on the appropriate level of recognise the efforts of a vast number of people of all payments for this patient group, but the package needs political parties and none who have worked assiduously to be considered in the context of the whole range of for a very long time to ensure that financial relief of a support that is available for the group, especially proper order is made available to those who have Department for Work and Pensions benefits, the care suffered from the tragedy and to their dependants? If available under the NHS and the care available from it is in order, I would also like to pay tribute to the social services. Having consulted widely, we consider work of my noble friend Lady Thornton, who throughout that the sums announced in this package, taken in the this has shown a ready ear and sympathy for those round with the other support available to this patient who are affected. Of course I also pay tribute to my group, are both appropriate and reasonable. So, while noble friend Lord Morris, who has worked tirelessly I understand the noble Lord’s request, I am not in a throughout so many years. position to accede to it at this point. I congratulate the Government on addressing one Baroness Hussein-Ece: My Lords, I congratulate very important anomaly that is suffered by the dependants my noble friend the Minister on the package announced of deceased recipients of the Skipton Fund. Do I take in the Statement today. We very much welcome both it it that that is the only anomaly that the Government and, as the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, said, the are proposing to address, or will their ears be open huge progress that has been made. Given that the throughout the discussions to some of the other anomalies commitment to review the current arrangements was that have been uncovered? I am grateful for the increased made just last October, the Minister is to be congratulated benefits, but will the Minister explain why they are on the swiftness with which this matter has been paid through charitable trusts and not directly from brought back to your Lordships’ House. I hope that it government offices as a direct entitlement of the serves to bring some comfort to those who have for so beneficiary? There may be good reasons for that, but, many years campaigned for justice, and particularly to so far as I am aware, they have never been given. the relatives of the deceased and the many other Finally, since this announcement was in the form of victims of this tragic episode. a Statement, does that foreclose further discussion on The Minister announced that there would be a what is to be done, or will there continue to be discussions window for posthumous claims until the end of March about the proposals during their progress through 2011. There is concern that that is not a very big Parliament and into the future? window and that it does not offer a lot of time to locate people and, for the many who may need assistance, Earl Howe: My Lords, the noble and learned Lord, to put a claim together. Perhaps the Minister can say Lord Archer, is himself to be thanked and congratulated why it is such a small window. Is he satisfied that it is on the immense amount of work he did to inform the sufficient time in which to track down as many people thinking of the previous Government and the current as possible who may have lost out? Government in these matters. I immediately echo his It is not quite clear from the Statement who will tribute to the work of so many people—people, as he receive posthumous payments. Will widows, partners said, of all political parties and none—who enabled us and children be included in the arrangements? I would to gain a proper understanding of these issues. I am appreciate clarification on those points. also well aware that the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, 1237 Blood and Blood Products[10 JANUARY 2011] Blood and Blood Products 1238 was working very hard up to the time of the last Earl Howe: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble general election to see whether a better package could Lord, who comes to this with considerable knowledge be delivered. I was particularly pleased to hear her and experience as a former Secretary of State for support for this series of announcements. Health. He is right: it has been a difficult if not an The noble and learned Lord asked me about the intractable problem for successive Secretaries of State. benefits for deceased victims and whether these were He is also right to say that the human tragedy has the only anomaly that we sought to correct. We identified become more obvious as the years have passed. For two principal anomalies in the situation that has pertained one thing, it was not so obvious in the early days that hitherto: the first was the one to which he referred in there would be so many victims of hepatitis C, because relation to those who died prior to 29 August 2003, that condition only tends to emerge after a considerable which was an arbitrary cut-off date; and the second lapse of time. The HIV infection was more immediate was the clear imbalance of benefits for those who and more obvious. suffer hepatitis C as a result of receipt of contaminated The noble Lord is right that in making this blood. There was a gap to be filled there, and we were announcement for England, we are creating an immediate even clearer on that having read the scientific report disparity with the devolved Administrations. As I that we received. We therefore sought to redress that indicated, I hope that in our discussions with the particular imbalance. There are a number of other devolved Administrations—who are, after all, new elements in the package, but I have identified the autonomous—we can arrive at a more equitable package two main ones that stood out to us. for all victims across the United Kingdom. I am sure, The noble and learned Lord asked why we were without wishing to appear to interfere in the affairs of choosing to use charitable trusts as the mechanism for the devolved Administrations, that that is something payment. We feel that the arrangements have worked that, as human beings, we would like to see. But I well so far through charitable trusts and we do not cannot pre-empt the decisions that will be taken in think it appropriate for these benefits to be paid those Administrations. through the Department for Work and Pensions. It is not really in the department’s remit to do that; it is Baroness Masham of Ilton: My Lords, I declare an there to pay benefits and certainly not to decide on interest as a vice-president of the Haemophilia Society. discretionary payments. We hope and believe that the I am very pleased that the Government have recognised victims who are currently in receipt of the benefits the plight of so many people and families who have have good relationships with the trustees of all the funds. suffered this disaster. But what safeguards are in place As for the practical arrangements for paying these to prevent any infections from blood transfusions or new sums, if there are queries we will endeavour to blood products happening in the future? Prevention is answer them. As I have indicated, we are directing so important and one never knows what is on the people towards the Skipton Fund as the point of horizon. information on this, but the package that my right honourable friend announced today should be regarded Earl Howe: My Lords, the noble Baroness is, as as the final one because we believe that it settles the always, absolutely on the mark. This has been an outstanding issues that we needed to address. important issue not just for the current Government but for the previous one. The measures in place to ensure the safety and Lord Reid of Cardowan: My Lords, I thank the quality of human blood, blood components and the Minister and welcome the Statement today. As a former blood products manufactured from them have developed Health Secretary, I took some interest in this matter, significantly since the mid-1980s. We test for viral but, like the Minister, I would like to congratulate my markers. Donations contribute to a plasma pool which colleagues who have been involved in the issue in is also tested for viral markers. In 1985, the introduction recent years. The one thing that I came to understand of heat treatment in the UK removed the risk of both was that this was not only an intractable problem but HIV and hepatitis from blood products. Testing of all an increasingly intractable problem. There are two donations for HIV was also introduced in 1985. Testing reasons for that: first, as time passed, the human for hepatitis C was introduced in 1991 when tests tragedy of the people afflicted became more and more became available. The European directive is now in obvious; and secondly, the scientific evidence became force. As of 2002, it sets standards of quality and more and more complicated and difficult for the safety for the collection, testing, processing and storage Government to avoid. and distribution of human blood and blood components. I have two quick questions. First, we have finally We have a Community code for medicinal products reached a stage which may not be completely the end which affects blood products such as clotting factors. and may not be completely satisfactory, but which is On completion of manufacture, blood products are much fairer than the previous one. But does he accept tested for compliance with specification by the that if there is a disparity between Scotland, England manufacturer. All batches of blood products undergo and Wales in terms of the treatment of victims and independent testing by an EU official medicines control there is seen to be inequality and unfairness, it will laboratory. We are in a different world entirely now detract greatly from any value that this has created? from that of the 1970s and 80s. Secondly, as my noble friend and colleague Lord Morris said, although this goes a long way, there may Lord Corbett of Castle Vale: My Lords, can I ask— still be outstanding issues. Will he not close the door completely to further discussions that could arise in Earl Attlee: My Lords, I am sorry but we are out of the light of further scientific evidence? time. 1239 Health: Parkinson’s Disease[LORDS] Health: Parkinson’s Disease 1240

Health: Parkinson’s Disease “innovation” are more important than equal access to best treatment. Regional difference, we are told, is a Question for Short Debate good thing, driving up standards through competition. Consider that from the point of view of someone with 7.42 pm Parkinson’s, living in an area with no Parkinson’s Asked By Baroness Gale nurse, little access to a neurologist and no available physiotherapist or speech and language therapist, where To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their people have to argue their case to receive NICE-approved response to the recommendations of the report of treatments. Meanwhile, in the PCT next door, or perhaps the All-Party Parliamentary Group for Parkinson’s a neighbouring GP consortium, services are much Disease, Please Mind the Gap: Parkinson’s Disease better. This approach simply seems unfair; will it drive Services Today. up standards? One area of concern is the decision to give GPs Baroness Gale: My Lords, I declare an interest as more power over commissioning. Most GPs have limited chair of the All-Party Group for Parkinson’s Disease knowledge and experience of Parkinson’s disease. They and as a member of the charity, Parkinson’s UK. typically have just one or two patients with Parkinson’s Parkinson’s is a long-term neurological condition and on their books. With a highly complex condition such can be hugely debilitating. The fluctuating yet progressive as Parkinson’s it is clearly necessary for decisions to be nature of the condition means that symptoms can taken at a wider strategic level. Within the new structures vary from day to day and even from hour to hour. outlined in the White Paper, the only way to ensure a Access to the right health and social care can make a comprehensive approach to commissioning high quality huge difference to people with Parkinson’s. It can Parkinson’s services is for the NHS commissioning enable them to live a more independent life for longer board to have responsibility for this and to provide and preserve dignity and quality of life. With the right clear and specific commissioning guidance and outcomes support, people can hold down a job and continue to for Parkinson’s services. To ensure we have high quality lead a full life. When the necessary complicated medicines Parkinson’s services, we need specific, evidence-based regime is carefully managed, symptoms can often be quality guidelines and outcome measures. In other minimised. words, the Government must provide a standard against In 2009, the All-Party Group for Parkinson’s Disease which patients can measure their service and, if services conducted an inquiry into access to health and social fall short, there should be robust mechanisms to hold care for people with Parkinson’s, with the support of providers and commissioners to account. Parkinson’s UK. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Walton, What assurances can the Minister offer that patients, for his excellent contribution to the inquiry panel. It including those with disabilities or conditions such as brought to light stark inequalities in Parkinson’s services Parkinson’s, will be supported to seek redress in a across the UK. We found that a postcode lottery meaningful way? One idea is that people with long-term dictated people’s chances of receiving the support they conditions should be represented on the proposed need. This included seeing a specialist Parkinson’s health and well-being boards. Can the Minister say nurse, access to professionals such as physiotherapists something about that? and speech and language therapists, and ongoing review The provision of moneys for social care is another and rehabilitation. For instance, at that time more area of concern. Local authorities say that the £2 billion than one in four people with Parkinson’s had never for social care will fail to plug the hole left by the seen a Parkinson’s specialist nurse, yet they can cut 28 per cent cuts they are facing over four years, hospital admissions by 50 per cent. Although the compounded by the pressures of an ageing population. number of nurses has substantially increased since Further, freed from ring-fencing and national audit, then, mainly due to sustained investment by Parkinson’s there is no guarantee that moneys will be spent as UK, it is vital that we do not see numbers fall back to intended. Councils are already cutting back by changing the unacceptable low level. The inquiry found that half eligibility criteria so that only those with the most of people with Parkinson’s had never seen a critical needs receive support. Many people with physiotherapist, whose treatment can avoid falls and Parkinson’s and other conditions already find services injuries. inadequate. A resident of Cumbria told our inquiry: Worryingly, new threats to physiotherapy are emerging across the country. Some posts left vacant by retirement “My only involvement with Social Services was [with] regards are not filled, leaving local people with Parkinson’s to a seat for the bath and I had to wait 16 weeks for this”. without one of their most valued services. The previous Another strong message from our inquiry was that Government put in place the national service framework more needs to be done to support carers. One carer for long-term neurological conditions, which set out told us: key requirements for health and social care. The “It is difficult to put into words the feeling of abandonment Department of Health is sending conflicting messages and loneliness I feel ... Carers have enough to cope with without about the future of this framework. When will a the constant battle to get some attention for their loved ones”. decision be made? Can the Minister assure me that, if I welcome the Government’s refreshed set of priorities it goes, it will be replaced by something sufficiently for carers. In particular, PCTs are being given £400 million robust? for carers’ breaks over the next four years, which I This brings me to the likely impact of the Government’s hope will benefit some of those who care for people health White Paper. Some of the language used by the with Parkinson’s and other conditions, often with very Government suggests that “localism”, “choice” and little support or respite. Who will ensure that this 1241 Health: Parkinson’s Disease[10 JANUARY 2011] Health: Parkinson’s Disease 1242 money is spent as intended? Another concern is that involved in supporting people to live independently. the removal of ring-fencing will make the allocation of Such services include providers of transport, housing, carers’ funding to local authorities much more opaque. employment, education, benefits and pensions. When To ensure transparency, the Government should at the framework was first published, a main target was least publish the nominal amount each council has to reduce emergency bed days by 5 per cent by 2008 received through the carers grants. through improved care in primary and community Given the current necessity to spend limited funds settings for people with long-term conditions. As we wisely, in the case of Parkinson’s, quality care is proven have heard, there are places in the country where the to be cost effective. Will the coming changes mean that target has been met successfully—for example, in north some areas will lose their Parkinson’s nurses? Research Devon, the provision of a Parkinson’s nurse has helped has shown that such nurses can reduce hospital admissions to reduce emergency admissions by 66 per cent—but by 66 per cent, which could be saving the NHS in that has not happened in other places. Will the Minister England approximately £7.5 million. perhaps comment on the accessibility of such specialist If the Government are committed to reducing health nurses around the country? inequalities, I urge the Minister to consider the report Patients with Parkinson’s disease continue to suffer of the All-Party Parliamentary Group for Parkinson’s delays in diagnosis and in access to specialist treatment Disease, whose findings are drawn from expert evidence because of appalling gaps in NHS care, as the All-Party from more than 360 people with Parkinson’s as well as Parliamentary Group for Parkinson’s Disease report from their carers, health and social care professionals mentions. The report also found severe inequalities in and key organisations. The report finds that huge access to services across the country. At the time, there inequalities exist in access to the care and support that was a chronic shortage of specialist nurses. The report are needed by people with Parkinson’s and by their blames Ministers and health service managers for a families and carers. I hope that the Minister will agree lack of leadership on neurological services at national that access to the right services should not depend on and local level. where people live. Another concern is about access to appropriate On behalf of everyone affected by the condition, I services for people living in care homes and for black urge the Minister to do all that he can to ensure that and minority ethnic groups. Does the Minister have there is a strategic, comprehensive approach to any evidence to suggest that the situation for such commissioning Parkinson’s services that is underpinned people has improved? by robust quality standards and by an effective, accessible In June 2006, the National Institute for Health and system that will allow local people to hold services to Clinical Excellence issued implementation advice to account. I understand that the NHS commissioning accompany clinical guidelines on diagnosis and board and GP consortia will have a statutory duty to management in primary and secondary care settings, reduce inequalities in healthcare provision. in particular for primary care trusts and acute trusts. My final question to the Minister is how he envisages The advice also set out what support is available to reducing geographical inequalities in service provision, help people with a condition to cope and how to plan including for those with Parkinson’s. I look forward to for the future, with aims such as establishing individual the Minister’s response, and I thank all noble Lords care packages, establishing lines of communication, who are taking part in this important debate tonight. building support for the patients and looking out for any complications. 7.52 pm On care plans, which I think are very important, my Baroness Hussein-Ece: My Lords, I congratulate previous experience from working in the NHS was the noble Baroness, Lady Gale, on securing the debate. that many patients were not really aware that the care I also pay tribute to the tireless work that she has done plan belongs to them—they own it—and that they in chairing the All-Party Parliamentary Group for should have a copy of it. They should be able to take it Parkinson’s Disease, which is a disease that, like other home and share it with their families and relatives, but long-term conditions, can have a devastating impact that is not always the case. Given that people are now on patients and their families. As we have heard, one living much longer with these long-term neurological person in every 500 has Parkinson’s, which equates to conditions—indeed, people are living longer generally about 120,000 people in the UK. and are therefore more prone to developing such conditions—are care plans being reviewed to take that Like those who suffer from other progressive into account? Are care plans updated regularly? A neurological conditions, Parkinson’s sufferers and their patient’s needs and conditions will change and vary families are entitled to a standard of care and treatment quite radically over the years, but the care plan might no matter where they live in the UK. When the national not always be updated to reflect that. That is one of service framework for long-term neurological conditions my concerns. was published in 2005 after considerable consultation with patients and groups, the framework was very Other problems cited by the all-party group’s report much welcomed because it set out 11 quality standards include poor access to therapy services, which has with the aim of reducing differences in the treatment, already been mentioned, and a lack of information for care and support for people with long-term conditions— patients about what services are available. The limited including Parkinson’s disease—to ensure that their provision of respite care is also an issue. care is more accessible and better co-ordinated. The NICE guidelines set out the importance of The national service framework applies to health access to occupational health services and other allied and social care services that work with local agencies health professionals. The key principle must be that it 1243 Health: Parkinson’s Disease[LORDS] Health: Parkinson’s Disease 1244

[BARONESS HUSSEIN-ECE] as well as social care. All have a part to play in the is important to treat the patient rather than just the patient’s journey while living with Parkinson’s. There condition because everyone is different and everyone is concern among many people involved in patient has different circumstances. By doing that, we could care and groups of people living with long-term conditions prevent unnecessary deterioration and thereby reduce that things may not get better when GP consortia are the burden on the health and social care system. Is the in charge. Can the Minister say what the terms and Minister satisfied that, in line with the NICE guidelines, conditions of commissioning will be, and what will be patients have access to the full range of services, the safeguards? regardless of their postcode? I congratulate Parkinson’s UK on pump-priming Finally, I pay tribute to Parkinson’s UK, which has nurses for the first two years. I wonder how many been at the forefront of campaigning for greater research trusts take on the services of these specially trained and information on the disease and on treatment and nurses and how many, after two years, do not. The therapies for patients living with Parkinson’s disease. report states that the role played by Parkinson’s disease People with Parkinson’s disease deserve the right to special nurses in the care of people with Parkinson’s access the essential services that they need, notwithstanding disease was strongly endorsed by submissions from the inevitable budget cuts and other restraints on local people living with the condition, from carers and from authority budgets. There are concerns that the eligibility those medical specialists working alongside nurse criteria will be tightened in some councils, as has specialists. Many people with Parkinson’s disease and already happened over the years, and that the criteria their carers outlined how Parkinson’s disease nurse will differ from council to council. Does the Minister specialists provided them with a regular point of contact agree that standards should be set for such eligibility for advice on all aspects of the condition and for criteria, given that it does not seem fair that the adjusting their complex medication regimes. This service criteria for people living in one borough might be was particularly valued by the group. When individuals tightened to a greater extent than in another borough did not have access to a nurse specialist, it tended to be next door with the result that people might not be identified as the most significant service inadequacy. I entitled to the level of support in social care services should be grateful for the Minister’s views on nurse on which they rely? specialists. A person with Parkinson’s said in the report: 7.58 pm “The biggest help has been specialist Nurses, bit of a life saver really, could not imagine coping without them”. Baroness Masham of Ilton: My Lords, I thank the There is a great deal to do to make services better for noble Baroness, Lady Gale, for bringing this report on all people living with Parkinson’s disease: for those in Parkinson’s disease to the notice of your Lordships. care homes who are often neglected and for those who The noble Baroness is a dedicated chairperson of the find help is not forthcoming or that there is a lack of All-Party Group for Parkinson’s Disease. joined-up working between health and social care. I My late husband was diagnosed with Parkinson’s, hope this report will be read and used by many people. along with other complicated conditions. He was I have already sent it to someone in Yorkshire. I hope diagnosed in London but, as we live in North Yorkshire, it will be used by health professionals, many of whom I found there was a lack of interest in that specialty need educating about the needs of people with Parkinson’s when I tried to find a consultant in the north. We disease. I hope that the Minister will help to make found one consultant in Leeds, which was a long services better for these people who really need them. distance from home, and a very helpful Parkinson’s specialist nurse. That perhaps illustrates from first-hand experience how the specialist care that is needed by 8.03 pm people with Parkinson’s is patchy throughout the country, Lord Harrison: My Lords, I, too, congratulate my as is stated in the report. noble friend Lady Gale and all her colleagues on Two years ago, a friend living in the North Yorkshire Minding the Gap and on producing a groundbreaking dales needed the expertise of a consultant with a contribution to the understanding of Parkinson’s and special interest in Parkinson’s. I was pleased to find its effects on people affected by it and on carers. I hope such a consultant in Leeds who visited a private hospital that the noble Earl will spare some of his time to talk in Harrogate. I passed on this information and received about the carers, who have a particularly difficult time a letter from the friend who said that he was very in caring for people with such a difficult disease as pleased with the consultant, whom he liked and found Parkinson’s. I look forward to the Government’s response very helpful. When one has to have complex drugs, it and I hope that the fate that befell the multiple sclerosis is important that one can have trust and confidence in review will not befall the NICE guidelines for Parkinson’s the consultant who is prescribing the drugs. When I this year, when the review is taking place. It would be read in the report that there are many people with very helpful to have an assurance that will not happen. Parkinson’s who never see a consultant it causes concern, The 2011 review, indeed, offers a real opportunity as having expert advice makes all the difference to the not only to examine the recent evidence on the new patients and their partners or carers. drugs and treatments for managing symptoms but to As I read my Christmas cards this year, I had one scan the full multidisciplinary range of services provided which said: “Maureen cannot write this card as she to Parkinson’s people for their present effectiveness. It has Parkinson’s”. People with Parkinson’s need the would be helpful if NICE could include Parkinson’s in help of expert doctors, nurses, physiotherapists, the list of conditions for which it develops quality occupational therapists and speech and language therapists standards, because that will help avoid any postcode 1245 Health: Parkinson’s Disease[10 JANUARY 2011] Health: Parkinson’s Disease 1246 lottery approach to Parkinson’s which undermines the That helps people with Parkinson’s to maintain balance. proper national and comprehensive service which my We should be encouraging all these items. noble friend Lady Gale has already mentioned. Again, I shall end on a more amusing note. It is good that I ask: is that possible? Michael J Fox, who is himself a sufferer, continues to Also, at a time of impending NHS reorganisation, pour money into research into Parkinson’s, but I was it is imperative that GP consortia, which will be at the struck the other day that there is a new romantic centre of change, should also commission services comedy doing the rounds called “Love and Other once they have sought expert advice and support from Drugs”. The feature of the film is that Anne Hathaway Parkinson’s experts. Third sector organisations such plays the part of an early Parkinson’s sufferer. She tells as the Neurological Commissioning Support service, us that she has enormous respect for Parkinson’s, or NCS, should also be fully consulted, especially as which she has learnt about as a result of doing this they represent a joint initiative of the Mind, the MS romantic comedy, and she says that in the throes of a Society and Parkinson’s UK. The NCS is best placed passionate embrace on one occasion she had to simulate to advise GP consortia about people with long-term a Parkinson’s tremor at the same time. It is interesting neurological conditions. I wonder whether we can that something that is a reality for so many people have an assurance there. outside is now beginning to filter in and be represented in films like this romantic comedy. I should, perhaps, mention a local initiative in I commend again the work of the all-party group Chester and North Wales that may qualify as a headed by my noble friend Lady Gale, and I hope that contribution to the big society espoused by the the Minister, who has always had a strong interest in Government. Last year, with the noble Lords, Lord all these issues, is able to give us some promising Wade of Chorlton and Lord Jones, I was present at responses today. the launch of a co-operative arrangement between the local MS support centre and the local Parkinson’s 8.11 pm branch, of which I am very honoured to be the president. Indeed, we are having our Parkinson’s branch AGM Lord Walton of Detchant: My Lords, in speaking in in the MS support centre later on in January. Such this important debate I must first declare an interest as collaboration between natural allies should be encouraged a vice-president of Parkinson’s UK, and as a neurologist as providing added value and not just as a cover for who has looked after a great many people with Parkinson’s cost-cutting. disease in the course of my professional career. It was in 1817 that James Parkinson, a general However, the more that I have come to understand practitioner in Hoxton in London, published an essay Parkinson’s, the more I have come to understand the on the shaking palsy, describing a disease that had central role of the Parkinson’s specialist nurses, on previously been known as “paralysis agitans”. As a which the two previous speakers commented. Those result of that important essay, the disease eventually nurses stand as advisers, advocates and allies of Parkinson’s became known across the world as “Parkinson’s disease”. people between the GP, who seldom has the detailed The pathology of the disease was well recognised knowledge, and the consultant, who seldom has sufficient many years ago, largely dependent upon the failure of time within the very busy days that occupy them. The nerve cells in a part of the brain stem called the importance of the specialist nurse is that Parkinson’s substantia nigra. It was in the middle of the previous is a shape-shifter of a disease, which requires the century that two Viennese pharmacologists discovered prompt attention of expert nurses to match its every that the normal substantia nigra produced an important deleterious move. Some years ago in Chester our specialist neurotransmitter called dopamine, and that when these nurse was axed by the local PCT, which was then cells degenerated, the dopamine declined. That ultimately experiencing financial difficulties. We fear that the resulted in the introduction of a drug, a precursor of new NHS commissioning changes will again imperil dopamine called L-Dopa, or levodopa, which was of our specialist nurse post, which was re-established course a major development in the treatment of this after the community worked long and hard to finance condition. I had the privilege in the 1960s of conducting its future. Indeed, I fear for all 300 of the national and supervising the first controlled trials of treatment team of specialist nurses for Parkinson’s, who are in in Parkinson’s disease conducted by the Medical Research place and funded by local groups, Parkinson’s UK and Council in the UK. local PCTs. Can the noble Earl give us an assurance Many new drugs have been developed since that on maintaining the efficacy of that team? time. Some of them are new precursors; some of them For people with Parkinson’s, maintaining personal are what are known as dopamine agonists, trying to mobility is key to leading a normal lifestyle. My local persuade the cell to produce more endogenous dopamine; branch, for instance, has just supplied its specialist and there are many others. The treatment has improved physiotherapy team with the latest laser-enhanced walking immensely. The side effects of the treatment, however, aids for their diagnostic programmes. They cost £150 but are substantial. One of the lessons that everyone looking work wonders. Any move from specialist nursing to a after patients with Parkinson’s disease has learnt is more generalised provision of nursing will turn off the that it is crucial to develop expertise in knowing how tap of such innovative approaches. Nurses are crucial to handle that drug therapy—to adjust it according to advisers when it comes to mobility and passing on best the on-off periods that occur. This is a matter of great practice. Indeed, one such best practice is the use of expertise, which is why Parkinson’s patients require Nintendo Wii programmes that now help those who the expertise of a well trained neurologist or, at the want to maintain their balance by, for instance, using a very least, a well trained geriatrician with neurological ski programme that allows you to go down ski slopes. training. That is crucial. 1247 Health: Parkinson’s Disease[LORDS] Health: Parkinson’s Disease 1248

[LORD WALTON OF DETCHANT] These developments are things that people with There have been crucial developments in research. Parkinson’s disease and their families deserve. I hope We now learn of the importance of the alpha-synuclein the Government will take full note of what has been gene and we note that free radical scavengers play a said today. I thank again the noble Baroness, Lady part in the etiology of this disease. There has even Gale, for so expertly chairing this inquiry. been exciting work done in which foetal nigral neurones have been implanted into the brains of some 8.18 pm patients, producing dopamine. The benefits have been substantial but the side effects are great, and more Baroness Thornton: My Lords, I congratulate my work will have to be done before these forms of noble friend on initiating this debate, and thank her treatment become a most effective part of the management for her commitment to Parkinson’s disease and for of these patients. chairing the important all-party group’s report. I doubt I shall address a question to the Minister that someone I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Gale, else has not already asked. None the less, as is traditional because it was a privilege to serve on this inquiry, in your Lordships’ House, I shall continue to speak. which she expertly chaired, dealing with the management As noble Lords will know, Parkinson’s is a long-term of patients with Parkinson’s disease and the range of degenerative neurological condition. Symptoms can services available across the country. I repeat the first include stiffness of movement, pain, incontinence and point: neurological assessment and the proper handling dementia, which fluctuate from day to day, as noble of treatment and drug therapy are crucial. However, Lords have mentioned, and worsen over time. It has a so too are the services provided by carers, physiotherapists, profound impact on people who have it, their families speech and language therapists, occupational therapists and their carers. I might be the first person in this and others. There is no doubt whatever that to have a debate to mention that one of the key problems with team of people looking after those with Parkinson’s Parkinson’s disease is the stigma that goes with it. disease, with a range of expertise, reduces the number People may not recognise that people have Parkinson’s. of patients who are admitted to hospital for emergency They might think that they are drunk or that there is care. That in turn is of great benefit to the National something else wrong with them. That is an additional Health Service. burden that people with Parkinson’s disease have to Sadly, though, as the report has demonstrated, the carry with them. postcode lottery continues; it is alive and well. The The background to this debate is the brilliant report range of services across the country is still desperately Please Mind the Gap, which took evidence from 360 uneven. We have heard about the 2005 national service people with Parkinson’s, their carers, health and social framework and the NICE guidelines that were published care professionals and representatives of public bodies, in 2006 to try to persuade health authorities across the royal colleges and the Government. It brought to light country to provide a standardised range of services for many of the geographical inequalities in availability of people with Parkinson’s disease, but they have not services across the UK. been universally adhered to. We know that the timely intervention of a specialist I have serious concerns about the proposed GP nurse or a physiotherapist and proper access to services commissioning consortia. I talked to the Secretary of can reduce hospital admissions and greatly improve State who said that the specialised commissioning quality of life. We have discussed this. We could substitute services for this and other neurological problems will many conditions for Parkinson’s disease. We know be handled by the specialised health commissioning that is the case. We know, therefore, that getting the board. I cannot see that a single national board is provision of services for people with Parkinson’s disease going to be capable of dealing with all the complexities right is not only right but cost effective. of the specialised neurological services that Parkinson’s Take, for example, Parkinson’s nurses. As a result of and others require, and I do not see how it will work the investment from Parkinson’s UK, which pump-primes without some kind of continuing regional services for nurses for two-year periods and to which I pay the the commissioning of these services. Whatever the highest tribute, there are more than 300 Parkinson’s excellence of the general practitioners and the nurses. I have to say that I agree with other noble commissioning services of consortia that they produce, Lords: there must be a question mark over their future. I do not believe that this will be adequate to meet the I ask the Minister whether there can be some monitoring needs of patients with Parkinson’s disease. of what happens to these nurses. As pressures increase It is right that the Government must take action to on primary care trusts and reform moves forward, do what they can to produce uniform national standards what happens when you lose a Parkinson’s nurse? How of care. Under the health Bill, have the individual care many more people are admitted to hospital? The packages and accounts that were proposed by the Government need to look at what evidence there is. previous Government made any contribution in the care The same applies to allied health professionals, of patients with Parkinson’s disease? Are the Government such as physiotherapists, occupational therapists, speech taking account of the work of the neurological and language therapists, psychologists and specialists commissioning support service established by three in neurology. They are all vital in treating Parkinson’s major charities—the Motor Neurone Disease Association, and other neurological conditions. The Minister will Parkinson’s UK and the Multiple Sclerosis Society? not be surprised to hear me ask how such coherent This body has made several important and far-seeing and co-ordinated provision will be made available proposals. It is very important that the Government under the proposed changes to the NHS commissioning should take account of its views. structures. Parkinson’s UK is extremely worried that it 1249 Health: Parkinson’s Disease[10 JANUARY 2011] Health: Parkinson’s Disease 1250 will mean a worsening of access to Parkinson’s nurses, strong statements, which this Government support. as well as all the other allied health professionals that The problem, made clear in this evening’s debate, not are needed. Indeed, Parkinson’s UK reports that it is least by the noble Lord, Lord Walton, is that all too hearing of posts remaining empty following retirement. often the vision of these documents is not put into It is clear that proposals to transfer commissioning practice and areas such as Parkinson’s services find powers from PCTs to GPs are of great concern, not themselves at a disadvantage when competing for attention only to Parkinson’s UK but to many organisations and resources. We want to put that right. Our reforms that deal with long-term and complex conditions. I to the NHS will ensure that patients have far more agree with the noble Lord, Lord Walton of Detchant, information about services, more choice about their that there must be a question mark over the ability of treatments and more influence over how healthcare is an NHS commissioning board to make sure that these shaped in their community. services are delivered adequately by GP commissioning Local Health Watch organisations, building on local when we are not even sure how many GP commissioning involvement networks, will ensure that the views and boards there will be. One needs to ask: how will those feedback of patients and carers feed into decisions consortia be able to commission the expertise to supply about local health and social care services. Devolving the support for this and the other neurological conditions responsibility for commissioning to GP consortia will mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Walton of Detchant? mean that decision-making is closer to patients and How will the Government ensure that the GP consortia more responsive to their individual needs. The noble involve the third sector in the delivery of these services? Baroness, Lady Gale, is right: we will have to ensure This question is being asked not just by Parkinson’s that GP commissioners are ready and have the skills UK. I happened to be at a meeting attended by the and awareness that they need to take these decisions. Multiple Sclerosis Society and the Motor Neurone The noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, referred to that Disease Association and they expressed the same concern matter, as did the noble Baroness, Lady Masham. about the ability of the consortia to commission the As noble Lords are aware, poor commissioning is right services at the right level at the right time for one of the main reasons for the low quality of some patients when a doctor may only ever see two patients Parkinson’s services and the patchwork quilt of standards with Parkinson’s disease as it is such an uncommon about which we have heard. I know that some patient disease. We know that you effect change in the NHS groups have expressed concerns about the skills and through leadership. How can the Government ensure knowledge of GP commissioners. The key to this will that the leadership for this condition will continue and be creating better care pathways. That is my main develop? The NICE guidelines are to be reviewed this answer to the noble Lord, Lord Walton, who expressed year. If the Government do not go ahead with that his scepticism on this score. We will expect consortia review and do not come forward with robust guidelines, to involve relevant health and social care professionals how will they ensure that the leadership for this condition in helping to design care pathways or care packages will be maintained? for those with Parkinson’s that achieve more integrated The Minister cannot have failed to notice that the delivery of care, higher quality and more efficient use same questions have been asked with regard to stroke, of resources. They should also talk with their local diabetes, MS and epilepsy. With all those conditions authorities, which will play an increasingly important the same level of anxiety is evident about what the role in co-ordinating care as we move toward joint future holds under the proposed changes to the NHS. commissioning and planning through health and well- I am merely amplifying what has already been said but being boards. There are certainly opportunities for we are getting to the point where we need answers patient groups to contribute to developing GPs’ about how these conditions will be managed. understanding of the condition and how to commission for it effectively. Regional neurological alliances, to 8.25 pm which a number of noble Lords referred, have an important role to play, working with the NHS and The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, councils, to make sure that patient needs are being met Department of Health (Earl Howe): My Lords, I begin locally. by thanking the noble Baroness, Lady Gale, for tabling this Question for Short Debate. I very much recognise The noble Baroness, Lady Gale, referred to outcomes. the considerable personal insight that she brings to The new NHS outcomes framework will help to deliver this subject, not least as chair of the all-party care that is safer and more effective and provides a parliamentary group. better experience for patients. The outcomes and indicators in the NHS outcomes framework have been chosen Noble Lords have spoken eloquently this evening specifically to capture the full range of NHS about Parkinson’s and the devastating impact that it responsibilities. Where appropriate, they are not condition can have. The all-party group’s report paints a compelling specific, but rather seek to capture those outcomes picture of the many failings of the health and social that an individual with any condition would consider care system: limited information for patients and poor important. access to expert nursing and therapy services, underpinned by a failure to deliver joined-up services. The previous In these financially challenging times, it is important Government produced a number of policy documents that we make the most of the resources available. designed to improve services and support people with Parkinson’s services are a good example of where Parkinson’s disease. The National Service Framework much more can be done and where inadequate services for Long-Term Conditions, to which noble Lords have waste resources. With an ageing population, the number referred, and the NICE clinical guideline are both of people with Parkinson’s is increasing and, as the 1251 Health: Parkinson’s Disease[LORDS] Health: Parkinson’s Disease 1252

[EARL HOWE] think that localism is the best way of holding local Fair Care campaign highlights, the best way to save organisations to account. These decisions should in money is to deliver good-quality Parkinson’s services the end be made locally and will be influenced by the when and where people need them. important inquiry that she has chaired. Better, more effective care does not necessarily mean The noble Baroness, Lady Gale, and others referred more resources. Doing things differently, good to the national service framework. While the vision of multidisciplinary teamwork, specialist support, early the NSF reflects that of the White Paper, the new interventions and care planning can all make a significant NHS architecture, and particularly the arrangements difference. High-quality information, combined with for commissioning, will render somewhat outdated the right support, is the key to achieving better care, any lessons learnt from the review. Better outcomes better outcomes and reduced costs. We have been for people with long-term neurological conditions will consulting on a new information strategy to improve in future be achieved through the NHS outcomes the range and quality of information available to framework. The framework will enable patients to patients, professionals and the public, to increase judge the overall performance of the NHS and to hold transparency and strengthen accountability in the system. the Government to account for progress. Through the Good social care is vital for people living with Long-Term Neurological Conditions Research Initiative, Parkinson’s. It enables them and their carers to live the the department has funded the development of Quality independent life that most of us take for granted. We Neurology, a comprehensive audit tool for local health want to build a social care system that is fair and and social care economies to use in assessing their sustainable—one that reflects individual autonomy current status in meeting the quality requirements of and ensures that everybody is treated with dignity and the NSF for long-term conditions. respect. In November, we published our vision for The noble Lords, Lord Harrison and Lord Walton social care, setting the future direction for adult social of Detchant, referred to GP consortia needing to care in England. The vision looks at the role of social involve the third sector. I have already referred to this care in contributing to the development of the big issue. The onus is on regional neurological alliances society and includes a new leadership role for local and patient groups to engage with GP consortia in the councils to improve preventive services and develop first instance. Through the then Section 64 scheme, the community capacity, which is in part an answer to the department funded the Neurological Alliance to establish question posed by the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton—in a network of RNAs across England. The case for other words, inspiring and supporting communities to developing a quality standard for Parkinson’s disease look after themselves. The vision encourages care and will be considered as part of the development of the support to be delivered in a partnership between comprehensive library of standards, in line with the individuals, communities, the voluntary sector, the plan set out in the White Paper. The longer-term aim NHS and councils, including wider support services, is to develop a broad library of quality standards such as housing. covering the majority of NHS activity. Carers exemplify the big society. They provide care The noble Baroness, Lady Gale, and my noble and support entirely from their own time and resources. friend Lady Hussein-Ece asked about the status of the In government, we need to reciprocate this commitment NSF for long-term conditions. The Government’s health with measures that support carers. Last year, we published reforms place outcomes at its heart, as I mentioned. an update to the National Carers Strategy—Next Steps That fits very well with the aspirations of the NSF for for the Carers Strategy. It provides a clear plan of long-term conditions. The issue is not the delivery action for the next four years, focusing on what will mechanism—in other words, the NSF versus the have the biggest impact on carers’ lives. Government’s health reforms—but, rather, ensuring A number of noble Lords, including the noble that services for people with a long-term neurological Baroness, Lady Gale, my noble friend Lady Hussein-Ece condition achieve the best possible outcomes. and the noble Baroness, Lady Masham, referred The noble Baroness, Lady Gale, asked how we can enthusiastically to the role of specialist Parkinson’s ensure that money for carers would be spent as intended. nurses. Specialist nurses provide a very important It is for PCTs and, after them, GP consortia to manage source of support and advice to patients with Parkinson’s their budgets and make decisions about how best to disease and enable many patients to manage their meet the health needs of their local populations, but condition effectively. It is of course the responsibility we are looking at how we can make decision-making of local health bodies to make decisions on the funding more transparent. That includes using the NHS operating of Parkinson’s nursing posts. The Long-Term Conditions framework, which sets out the priorities for the year Delivery Support Team has, however, developed a ahead and makes it clear that breaks for carers are guide to writing a business case for epilepsy specialist important. The NHS outcomes framework and the nurses for commissioners to use in making the case for outcomes framework for adult social care will also improving those services. This guide could be adapted push for clear and unambiguous accountability in this to make the case for specialist nurses for other long-term area. neurological conditions, including Parkinson’s. The As so often happens, the clock is moving against new commissioning arrangements will take all the me. I have much material here to answer every question evidence into account in deciding to what extent specialist posed by noble Lords. I apologise that I will not have nursing will be commissioned. time to do that in my allocated slot and I will write to The noble Baroness, Lady Gale, asked whether all all noble Lords with answers. Suffice it to say that, areas will retain their levels of Parkinson’s nurses. We while tonight’s debate has highlighted variations in the 1253 Health: Parkinson’s Disease[10 JANUARY 2011] Parliamentary Voting System 1254 quality of care, the fact is that there are some very said that it was probable that every constituency in the good examples of Parkinson’s services. In Barnsley, country would be affected by the proposals that were for example, there is an holistic, multidisciplinary being made. service in a range of locations tailored to meet the needs of patients. We need to replicate such models, 8.45 pm ensuring that everybody has access to comprehensive In the first instance the Bill states said that the work services and expert multidisciplinary care. Through should be completed in two years and nine months— our health reforms, we are determined to continue to assuming that it gets Royal Assent tomorrow, which it transform standards and to achieve better outcomes will not—and before 1 October of every fifth year for people with Parkinson’s disease. after that. It appears to acknowledge that the review 8.38 pm process will take twice as long as the first review that the Bill proposes. One is struck immediately by the Sitting Suspended. fact that there must be some driving timetable for the first review, other than practicalities. As noble Lords may know, under the current rules governing the boundary Parliamentary Voting System and review process that are contained in the Parliamentary Constituencies Bill Constituencies Act 1986, as amended by the Boundary Commissions Act 1992, Boundary Commissions are Committee (7th Day) (Continued) required to conduct reviews every eight to 12 years. As I have said, in practice Boundary Commissions have 8.41 pm taken around six to seven years to complete the past five periodical reviews of parliamentary constituencies. Amendment 54A On account of comparative size, reviews in England Moved by Lord Falconer of Thoroton have obviously taken more time than those in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. Some argue that in practice 54A: Clause 10, page 8, leave out lines 14 and 15 insert— a review every six or seven years is too long and that it “(a) initially by a date to be specified by the Boundary carries the risk that population movements in the Commission, once the Electoral Commission has certified mean time are not taken into account. I have sympathy that every local authority has taken all reasonable steps to ensure that the electoral register is as complete and with that view, and it may well be possible to expedite accurate as possible; and the time it takes to undertake a boundary review, (b) no later than every six years after that.”” although that would obviously require additional resources. We will come to that point in a later amendment in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Bach. Lord Falconer of Thoroton: My Lords, Amendment 54A stands in my name and in the names A wish to speed up the process is one thing, but why of my noble friends Lord Bach and Lady Thornton. It are the Government proposing to conduct this first would leave out lines 14 and 15 of Clause 10 on page 8 review under a new set of rules in less than three years? of the Bill. Clause 10(3) states: Let us not forget that we are not even talking about a standard boundary review. The secretaries of the four “For subsection (2)”— Boundary Commissions acknowledged that “every of the Parliamentary Constituencies Act 1986— constituency will change”. The Government propose “there is substituted … ‘A Boundary Commission shall submit arguably the biggest, most controversial and most reports under subsection (1) above periodically … before 1st October 2013, and … before 1st October of every fifth year after that’”. complicated redrawing of constituency boundaries since the departure of the Irish MPs in 1921. They intend to We propose that the two dates should be deleted and do it on the basis of an entirely new set of mathematical the following inserted: rules that will see factors such as geography, history “initially by a date to be specified by the Boundary Commission, and community pushed to one side by the need to once the Electoral Commission has certified that every local authority has taken all reasonable steps to ensure that the electoral adhere unbendingly to a higher electoral quota. The register is as complete and accurate as possible; and … no later Government’s proposal of a timetable of less than than every six years after that”. three years is artificially quick, even under the Bill’s We propose the change because in practice—this is own terms. their timetable—it has taken Boundary Commissions As I said, further reviews, according to Clause 10(3), six to seven years to complete the past five reviews of which amends Section 3(2) of the Parliamentary parliamentary constituencies. The Bill proposes that Constituencies Act 1986, will be held on a five-yearly the first review be completed before 1 October 2013. If basis. That initial dramatic redrawing of boundaries is the Bill were passed tomorrow—which seems unlikely— being tracked even faster than this apparent ideal. the work would have to be completed in two years and Why is that? Are the Government trying to minimise nine months. That is less than half the time that the risks of the results being made out of date by ordinary reviews have taken so far. While everyone interim changes in the population? That cannot be the would want the process to be quicker than it has been reason or they would be proposing that three years before, the Bill proposes that one should do it in less should always be the period for boundary reviews if than half the time that it has taken before, even when the problem was “out of dateness”. The highly respected one has to redraw every single boundary in the country. Constitution Committee of this House concluded that I say that because the chair men and women of Boundary it could see no reason for the haste of this process. Commissions came before the Political and Constitutional Indeed, that was its key criticism of the way in which Reform Committee of the House of Commons and this Bill has been presented: that it has been tagged on 1255 Parliamentary Voting System[LORDS] Parliamentary Voting System 1256

[LORD FALCONER OF THOROTON] done by his Government previously may have helped, to the provisions for the referendum on voting systems. but it certainly has not enabled the Electoral Commission One, arguably, has some time sensitivity. The urgency to take the very subjective view that he suggests. of Part 2 of the Bill is, however, fabricated. As the Deputy Prime Minister, Mr Nicholas Clegg, Lord Falconer of Thoroton: I do not think that it is a said in the other place on 5 July: subjective view. The commission would not be asked “we need to start with the work of the boundary review as soon as to guarantee that everyone, or 95 per cent of people, possible in order that it can be concluded in the timetable that we was on the electoral roll; it would be asked to check have set out”.—[Official Report, Commons, 5/7/10; col. 37.] that the local authorities had taken all reasonable I underline the words, steps. I envisage that it would set out what it would “in the timetable we have set out”. expect a reasonable local authority to do—for example, The Deputy Prime Minister was questioned by the house-to-house inquiries if there were very high levels members of your Lordships’ Constitution Committee of underregistration; or getting the figure up to 95 per in oral evidence about this timetable and gave no other cent in certain sorts of area. It would not be difficult explanation other than that it had to be concluded, to identify the criteria that had to be satisfied before the commission could be satisfied. There are so many “in the timetable we have set out”. other areas in which public bodies certify that reasonable Rather than conducting a boundary review of this steps had been taken. I do not regard it as beyond the magnitude according to an entirely arbitrary and politically wit of man for the commission to do the same in motivated timetable, the change should not begin until relation to local authorities. the basis for making it is reliable. As I think that everyone around the House accepts, Lord Tyler: The noble Lord’s amendment says that our electoral register is not up to scratch. Measures every local authority has taken all reasonable steps, so that were introduced while my party was in government— presumably no Boundary Commission operation could the rolling canvas and individual registration spring to start or any review be initiated until every local authority mind—have improved and will further improve the had been able to satisfy the Electoral Commission that situation, but further improvement is needed. In the it had taken reasonable steps. That is an impossible words of the Deputy Prime Minister, this will be, target. I am sure that, from his ministerial experience, “the biggest shake up of our democracy since 1832”. he would agree. The boundaries are to be redrawn on data from which the Government admit 3.5 million eligible voters are Lord Falconer of Thoroton: This new review could missing. The Great Reform Act 1832 extended the not start before every local authority had done that, franchise. How ironic it is that, in promoting the Bill, but what would the excuses be? Why should one, two, the Deputy Prime Minister will be rolling back the three or four constituencies be prejudiced? franchise. Millions of eligible but unregistered voters will be left out. For example, 9,651 are missing in Lord McAvoy: I thank my noble and learned friend Tooting; 12,421 in Bristol East; 17,528 in Leeds North for giving way. Is he aware that the City of Glasgow West; and just shy of 50,000 in the Cities of London Council recently conducted an exercise and, I am and Westminster. The national average registration is reliably informed, got an extra 30,000-odd voters on 91 per cent, but in a significant number of cases, to the register? Does that not show that each council mainly in urban constituencies, only about 80 per cent area can vary so much that it is not right or proper are registered to vote. That means that in some cases, that we can have such variation in the country? Therefore, as many as one in five voters are missing. the measure of compulsion, if you like, on all local Those figures highlight both the extent of the authorities to do what Glasgow has achieved should problem—cautioning against the timetable for boundary be in the Bill. changes envisaged under the Bill—and what is realistically achievable. If some inner urban constituencies in Lord Falconer of Thoroton: I am absolutely clear Birmingham and Manchester can register 95 per cent that the Electoral Commission would be perfectly of eligible voters, why cannot similar seats do the capable of setting out what it would regard as the same? criteria that had to be satisfied. If you impose a provision like this, I have no doubt—and I have experience of this having been the Minister involved in ensuring Lord Tyler: I am very grateful to the noble and good electoral practice—that that would have the learned Lord for giving way. I am finding it difficult to effect, as far as the local authorities are concerned—they follow him. I think that this is the most important part are, in practice, responsible for registration—of lifting of his amendment: the trigger to start the process. I all the votes up. I cannot envisage a local authority should say that I sit on an informal all-party advisory that would want to be one of two or three in the group which the Electoral Commission consults country that were incapable of meeting the standard. I occasionally. I really do think that his amendment cannot envisage that anybody in this House does not imposes on the Electoral Commission a responsibility want the standard that I have described to be met. If that it is not ready to take and would not wish to take. the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, thinks I am imposing too How can he suggest that there are criteria by which the high a standard, I am sure that he wants some standard Electoral Commission could certify that every local imposed, and I would welcome his contribution about authority has taken all reasonable steps to ensure that the margin of error that he would regard as acceptable the electoral register is as complete and accurate as as far as the Electoral Commission is concerned. I possible? I cannot see how it can do that. The work have detected no one in this House who has not 1257 Parliamentary Voting System[10 JANUARY 2011] Parliamentary Voting System 1258 supported the proposition that we should try to do all voting is a secondary issue? The first issue is that we that we can to get the 3.5 million people—a broadly should never put any obstacles in the way of a person’s accepted figure—who are not on the electoral register right to vote. A judgment, such as, “Oh, these guys are on to it. The effect of my amendment is not that never going to vote so let us not register them”, would everybody has to get on; it is that the local authorities be much more damaging to democracy than allowing have to make a reasonable effort to get them on. If as many people as possible on the register and then they do, and if the Electoral Commission certifies that leaving it to them to vote or not vote. they have done all that they can, then, and only then, can this process start. Lord Falconer of Thoroton: I certainly agree that we My noble friend Lord Lipsey, who I am delighted should not put any obstacles in their way, but I would to see in his place, made a speech before dinner in go further perhaps than my noble friend Lord Desai. I which he made the point that if we proceed with this do not know whether it will be the noble Lord, Lord very significant change in relation to the drawing of McNally, or the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace the constituency boundaries on the basis of the December of Tankerness, who replies but I hope that they will 2010 register, which is what the Government are proposing, perhaps give us some examples—I know that there are we are going to build in the bias. Who is the bias examples—of where registration efforts have had an against? It is against young people, those in private effect. It is those efforts that I am trying to build into rented accommodation and members of the black and the system. minority ethnic groups. It might be said that that I have to say to the noble Lord, Lord Phillips of group would tend to favour Labour or even the Liberal Sudbury, that I was encouraged by him saying that he Democrats, but that is not the point. You do not want supports the sentiments of the amendment. If he to start with a great section of our population—the supports the sentiments, perhaps I can persuade him young people—being disenfranchised because they do that you can make a difference by what you do. If the not want to vote. Electoral Commission is set up to judge that everyone has done what they should, would not that, I ask Lord Phillips of Sudbury: The sentiments that the rhetorically, have the effect of improving registration, noble and learned Lord expresses are wholly admirable. which is what everyone in this House wants to achieve? One wants to get every single person on to the register, Our amendment addresses this problem. It sets a but as I apprehend it, the problem is not a technical standard for the electoral register of the UK to be one; it is that there is a mass of disaffected younger certified by the body in charge of such matters, the people in our country who simply cannot be bothered Electoral Commission, before the redrawing of the to vote. They are not galvanised to take part in the boundaries begins. The status of the electoral register democratic process. How does he propose to overcome matters. Correct counting of the numbers of those that? living in different parts of the country matters. The Christmas adjournment debate in another place on Lord Falconer of Thoroton: I know from my experience miscounting in certain London borough constituencies as the Minister responsible that if, for example, you do during the 2001 census shows the impact that can be door-to-door inquiries, check who lives there, hand wrought on local communities in terms of allocation over a form to get on to the register, rather than of local services and resources. sticking it in an envelope, and then go back and pick it We have heard throughout this debate that what up, you dramatically increase the number registered. this Government aim for is fair votes and fair My noble friend Lord McAvoy referred to the effort representation. That has been the headline into which by the city of Glasgow. In my speech, I referred to the the noble Lords, Lord McNally and Lord Strathclyde, way that Manchester and Birmingham have 95 per and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace of cent registration because they are making the effort Tankerness, have resorted when seeking to justify this whereas London and Nottingham have 91 per cent, Bill. Basically, this amendment proposes that you have which is much lower. Picking up the approach of the a starting point that means you have got as many noble Lord, Lord Phillips of Sudbury, work has been people as you reasonably can on the register. It reflects done to identify the practical steps that can be taken. the fact that these boundary reviews take time and That is why I am submitting that it is not unreasonable that you should have reasonable time between the and does not impose an unreasonable burden on local reviews so that the up-to-date process can be given authorities for the Electoral Commission to say that it effect to. expects good practice from everybody. Our democracy is crucial to the well-being of our society and only I respectfully believe that those are sensible and when all the local authorities have got to that standard, realistic proposals. measured not by an absolute number but by doing the right thing, do we then move on to this particular Lord Campbell-Savours: I wonder whether my noble approach in relation to registration. We then avoid the and learned friend will press the noble Lord, Lord bias against young people, particularly in the BME Tyler, on something he said at the beginning of this communities and in the private rented sector. debate. He referred to the informal party advisory group of which he is a member. Do we have an 9pm informal party advisory group for the Labour Party Lord Desai: Does my noble and learned friend which meets with the Electoral Commission? agree that, contrary to what the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, has said, whether people want to take part in Noble Lords: Yes. 1259 Parliamentary Voting System[LORDS] Parliamentary Voting System 1260

Lord Campbell-Savours: The noble Lord talked about However, my noble and learned friend’s amendment a group. I am presuming that all parties belong to this has the double advantage of getting people on to the group and not just the Liberal Party. It was the way register and, as my noble friend Lord Desai said, the noble Lord phrased it. Forgive me: I will not press encouraging people to vote. There are lots of ways of my noble and learned friend. doing that which we have discussed previously. One of those is compulsory voting. A number of colleagues Lord Martin of Springburn: My Lords, I can possibly were a bit doubtful and unsure about that, and with help. I have said on the Floor of this House that it was good reason. I say that because I have just been the case when I was Speaker that the Electoral reading about the compulsory vote in Belgium, but Commission had to report. There was a weakness in because that country has a daft proportional the Electoral Commission in that it would not allow representation system, which my noble friend Lord former party agents in its membership. As a result, Grocott will particularly appreciate, it has not been although there were former chief executives of local able to form a Government for seven months, and the authorities, you never got someone like Jimmy Allison— guy who was appointed to mediate between the various God rest his soul—who used to be the wily agent of parties in order to try to get a government has just the Labour Party in Scotland. As a result, it was resigned. That is the sort of thing that happens when agreed that there would be an informal committee to you have daft systems of proportional representation. give the type of advice that was needed when there Someone asked me who is running the Government in were proposals for delivering leaflets and meeting the Belgium, and I said that I supposed it was the civil electorate. We all know that when you meet the electorate, servants. They answered, “What’s different? Doesn’t sometimes you have to face an Alsatian dog, and when that always happen?”. I hope that is not the case, but it you get by the Alsatian, you get a Rottweiler. The chief is worrying that you can get to that position even with executives did not really know about that, but Labour proportional representation and compulsory voting. Party agents did. You would think that that might improve the situation. Lord Falconer of Thoroton: I sat on the committee with the Speaker in which we discussed those matters, Lord Grocott: My noble friend referred to it as a and I remember the setting up of the informal committee. “daft” system of proportional representation. For the Since then a Bill has been passed which allows former benefit of the Committee, I wonder if he could list for politicians to sit on it. Happily, your Lordships have us the good systems of proportional representation. answered all the questions so I have not been put in the embarrassing position of doing that which I am Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: No, I cannot; there are not allowed to do, which is to press the noble Lord, not any. It is an even dafter system than the one Lord Tyler, because he is supposed to be pressing me included in the Bill. in the course of this debate. I have set out the reasons for this amendment. It is a What is proposed in the amendment has a very very important amendment because it requires a important aspect to it; that is, getting people on to the justification as to why it is two and a half years, why register. We should do everything that we can to we should not wait for an up-to-date register, and why achieve that. I am a little worried about the current gaps of five years are suggested. Those are the questions situation, because, with public expenditure cuts, local that this amendment raises. I beg to move. authorities will spend less money on canvassing people to get on to the register. They will take the cheapest Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: My noble and learned option of sending out letters once and hoping that friend is absolutely right that this is a very important they will be returned, instead of going round, knocking amendment. It is double-barrelled in that it deals with on doors, returning if they do not get a reply and two things. It deals with the redistribution to make really making sure that everyone in a household is on sure that it is based on the real number as near as the register, which is vital. possible of people eligible to vote in a constituency, It is not being party political or fighting the class and it encourages people to register and to vote. It is war to say that it is much easier to get people to important from the point of view of the redistribution register when they are living in detached houses or of boundaries, but it also has a wider and more houses that are easy to access. It is much more difficult beneficial effect. to get to houses in multiple occupation; for example, For the first aspect of this, I have an amendment, tenements in Glasgow. Sometimes, you cannot get in Amendment 89C, which I hope we will come to later through the main door to get up to the front door of this evening. I hesitate to say that it is better than my the flat concerned to get people to register. It is noble and learned friend’s amendment, but it is simpler therefore vital that we put in place a system or series of because it just says that, systems that encourage people to get their name on to “for the purpose of this Act”, the register and local authorities to get out and make the electorate will be taken as the number of people sure that they reach as many people as possible. That eligible to vote, not registered to vote. We can always is why the amendment needs our support. find out the number of people who are eligible to vote The noble Lord, Lord Tyler, said that it is not a through the census or whatever. I hope, in anticipation responsibility of the Electoral Commission. Well, if it of that—which is why I am giving the Minister a bit of is not the Electoral Commission’s responsibility, who extra notice—he will look at his briefing. It is a is charged with it? It seems obvious that it should be simpler amendment and I hope it is one that the the Electoral Commission, which has extended its Government might accept. responsibilities during the past few years. As my noble 1261 Parliamentary Voting System[10 JANUARY 2011] Parliamentary Voting System 1262 friend said, the commission now has on it political That does not mean that it has to be so exact that, as in party representatives, including my noble friend Lord the days when I was in engineering, you have to be half Kennedy, who understand what they are talking about a thou within your measurement. The amendment in relation to these matters. The Electoral Commission says “all reasonable steps”. should therefore be able to take on this extra responsibility. I know through experience that the Electoral The amendment would put a constraint on the Commission is a well resourced body. I do not know Electoral Commission to certify that all reasonable whether the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, had this experience, steps had been taken and on government not to be but it even said that it wanted copyright for a teaching able to progress until such certification was obtained. I pack to teach returning officers how to carry out their hope that the Minister will understand the importance duties. That is the extent to which the Electoral of getting as many people on the register as possible. Commission goes into these matters. We are going now through a series of issues which Talking about accuracy, my thoughts go back to ought not to be party political and on which we all the days when Strathclyde region was on the go and ought to find common ground. The noble Lords, Lord the famous poll tax was a big worry for every Member Strathclyde and Lord McNally, are very old friends of of Parliament in the west of Scotland. Strathclyde mine—the noble Lord, Lord McNally, has been for region took in the whole of the west of Scotland. many years, and the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, People were deliberately staying off the electoral register. used to be one of my constituents—but I somehow get It was not a case of the man or woman of the house the impression that the noble and learned Lord, Lord coming to the door and forgetting to say that one of Wallace, listens more to the arguments that are being the sons was working offshore but was resident in the put forward, picks them up and responds to them. I household and therefore the canvass could be inaccurate hope that that is a presage for his feeling able, on some to one person in a family because of the wrong of these issues which are not really party political, to information. This was particularly single people making say, “I’ll have a look at that. I’ll pick it up. I’ll go back sure that they stayed off the register to avoid the poll and talk with my colleagues about it and then come tax. It used to be called the community charge. That back at Report stage”. The coalition Government was a nice phrase. We called it the poll tax because that would find the passage of this Bill, which has been is what it was. difficult for them, a lot easier if they were to do that. I know that that is difficult and for two reasons: first, Mr James Woods was put in charge of electoral because there is a coalition, with differences of opinion registration for the whole of Strathclyde. All the Members between the two parties, I am led to believe, on certain of Parliament for Strathclyde met him and said that aspects of the Bill. I have no inside information—the the voters roll would be inaccurate. When it came to noble Lord, Lord McNally, is shaking his head—but I appeals and the Boundary Commission, a big matter still think that there might be some differences of would be the number of people on the electoral roll. opinion. I know that that takes some time. I know also He told us all, “Here is what I’ve done. Come and visit that Ministers in the other place have principal my department. I do a canvass and then I do a second responsibility for this; Ministers in the Lords do not canvass and if we suspect that there are people who necessarily have ministerial and departmental are taking their names off the electoral roll, we make responsibility and they therefore have to consult with inquiries”. Ministers in another place. There was also the question of people having two The third thing that will make it difficult for them is homes. Sometimes a wife would register in one home that there are two departments dealing with the Bill. and a husband in the other to avoid a double poll tax. There is the Ministry of Justice in which the noble Mr Woods assured us that he was putting a high and Lord, Lord McNally, is a Minister, and the Deputy accurate return on to the electoral register. It would be Prime Minister within the Cabinet Office also has reasonable for the Electoral Commission to interview responsibility.There are some differences of accountability someone such as Mr Woods and ask, “What are you there. Notwithstanding that—I am using this amendment doing? What facilities have you got? We want to visit but it will come up a lot in others and I hope I can be your premises and see what you are doing”. That excused special pleading in relation to Amendment would be good enough to give a certificate. 89C—I hope that the noble and learned Lord will not It must be remembered that people used to speak just come up with an argument against everything that with fondness about a local authority called Saltcoats we put forward. I hope that as time goes on and we go down on the Ayrshire coast which had the cheapest through the Bill this week, next week and the week rents in Scotland—the reason being that they had no after that, on issue after issue, he will look at this direct works department and a small local authority. carefully. If he gives it that kind of positive responsibility, The local authority was so small it would even meet if he will find a lot more sympathy on this side of the they had to hire a foreman gardener. Local authorities House. such as that are no longer with us. Local government has been streamlined. There is often a criticism that 9.15 pm some chief executives in local government get paid Lord Martin of Springburn: My Lords, can a local more than the Prime Minister of the day because of authority or the Electoral Commission speak with their large responsibilities. I do not wish to go into accuracy regarding steps being taken by a local authority? that as I would stray from the amendment but all local The amendment says that, authorities that I know of in the United Kingdom and “every local authority has taken all reasonable steps to ensure Northern Ireland would be well able to hire a highly that the electoral register is as complete and accurate as possible”. competent electoral registration officer who could easily 1263 Parliamentary Voting System[LORDS] Parliamentary Voting System 1264

[LORD MARTIN OF SPRINGBURN] effectively and as efficiently as possible. I cannot see convince the Electoral Commission to give the local what is unreasonable about that. Indeed, our suggestion authority a certificate to say that it is working to seems entirely proper, so I am surprised to hear that ensure an accurate register. If the Government had a the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, has a problem with it, as I worry about the Electoral Commission, it need not be cannot think what that problem would be. We need to the Electoral Commission but someone else. The noble get those 3.5 million people back on our electoral rolls and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, mentioned certification; and then—although, as my noble friend said, this is certification is given to shipping, factories and other a different matter—to consider voting. I support bodies. Amendment 54A and I hope that the Government will do so as well. Baroness Thornton: This is my first intervention in the Bill. I am pleased to join my happy band of colleagues to, I hope, help with the discussions. I want Lord Soley: My Lords, I rise to speak on the role of to get involved in the issue of voter registration in this the Electoral Commission, in which I, the noble Lord, part of the Bill because of my work with young Lord Tyler, and others are involved. I apologise first to people, particularly excluded ones, in a variety of my noble and learned friend Lord Falconer for missing charities and also because I am from Bradford. My the opening phrases of his speech, but I know very title is Baroness Thornton, of Manningham. I suspect well what his amendment is about and have considerable that Manningham in Bradford probably has one of sympathy for it—indeed, I fully support it—as it deals the lowest records of voter registration in the whole of with an important issue. our city, for reasons that we will discuss in the next Of the two things that I want to say, the first relates series of amendments. to the Electoral Commission. When I have spoken on We know that those who are absent from the registers previous occasions when we have considered the Bill, I are likely to be drawn from the same social groups as have not mentioned that I am a representative on the under-registered voters in previous decades. This is Electoral Commission’s parliamentary advisory group, not a new issue. Variations in registration levels by age, which includes Members of both Houses and all parties. social class and ethnicity have long been recognised The parliamentary advisory group offers advice on the and it is predominately densely populated urban areas Electoral Commission’s proposals and the Electoral with significant concentrations of mobile young people Commission listens to our comments. that have the highest levels of under-registration. That Given that a number of problems with registration is why I, along with other noble Lords, support need to be looked at, there is certainly a case for amendments pressing our concerns for different groups having a debate—although perhaps not at this stage—on of our fellow citizens. the role and powers of the Electoral Commission. The The Electoral Commission’s March 2010 report commission performs an important job, for which, as The Completeness and Accuracy of Electoral Registers the noble Lord, Lord Martin, pointed out, it is also in Great Britain highlights that matter. The report well resourced. However, I think that the noble Lord states that, would agree with me that one problem is the lack of “there are some grounds to suggest that geographical variations real clarity on the commission’s powers to investigate in registration levels may have widened since the late 1990s. and to make strong recommendations on the effectiveness Available data sources suggest that registration rates in London of local authority registration processes. Various members appear to have stabilised, and may even have improved slightly, of the Electoral Commission frequently mention—and since the late 1990s. By contrast, English metropolitan districts the Members from the political parties who attend the appear to have experienced a clear fall in registration levels. parliamentary advisory group recognise—that, although Canvass response rates show a similar pattern. In 1996, the average canvass response rates for metropolitan districts were the commission can try to persuade local authorities 93%, significantly higher than the 87% achieved by the average to drive up registration levels, it does not have the London borough. However, by 2004 the average response rate power to say, “This is not good enough, so we will not among London boroughs had risen slightly to 89%, while it had certify you”. Without that power, as I think was pointed fallen to 84% in the English metropolitan districts. Despite improved out by the noble Lord, Lord Martin, the local authorities response rates among metropolitan districts in 2008, the 90% average ultimately do not need to try that hard. remained just below the 91% figure achieved by London boroughs”. As my noble and learned friend Lord Falconer said, if As my noble and learned friend Lord Falconer and the electoral roll is to be frozen as at 2010, how much others have pointed out, we should all be able to agree more inaccurate will it be in those areas of the greatest that registration levels in this country could and should vulnerability by 2015? We know that more than 3 million be far better. The current levels are not good enough. people are not on the electoral roll. How many more Indeed, my noble friend Lady Thornton quoted the voters would the coalition Government find it acceptable Electoral Commission’s March 2010 report, which not to appear on the electoral roll by 2015? I think that makes the point—this is true—that registration levels the Minister needs to answer those questions, given in London went up and then stabilised but appear to that millions of people—young people, ethnic minorities have gone down in other areas. and people who live in rented accommodation in areas of high density—will in effect be disfranchised by the 9.30 pm Government’s proposals. My other point is that, as I and others in this House Our amendment suggests, quite reasonably I think, have seen, when a local authority makes a major effort that the Electoral Commission should ensure that the to improve registration, it achieves it. When my own local authorities that have responsibility for the canvasses local authority in Hammersmith set out to increase that produce the electoral roll should do their job as registration, it went up dramatically. As I think my 1265 Parliamentary Voting System[10 JANUARY 2011] Parliamentary Voting System 1266 noble friend Lord Foulkes was saying, it was a matter amendment comes up, which I suspect will not now be of going and knocking on doors and handing the tonight. I hope that it will be on Wednesday. All of form to people, asking them to fill it in and then this is in the context of a Bill that is doing the very following that up if it did not arrive back. In areas thing that I have said before that the Government are such as London and, indeed, in some other big cities, doing: presenting us with the image of a Government this is particularly important because you have a very who do not care too much about the quality of our high turnover of population. One estate in my area, democracy and are determined to drive through the the White City estate, had at one stage a 25 per cent changes. In that sense, they have become an overpowerful turnover of population every year. There was still Government. You can see that in the Public Bodies quite a stable core to the estate’s population, but all Bill or in this Bill, where they are determining the size the others were changing. I remember making that of the House of Commons at the same time as they point strongly to the Electoral Commission a couple are increasing the numbers in the House of Lords to a of years ago and it was sympathetic. It understands position where they almost have a majority. All these the problem and would be the first to say, “Yes, the things are deeply worrying. There is a massive increase local authority ought to make that extra effort”. in the use of Henry VIII powers, about which all the There are two issues. First, local authorities can members of the Regulatory Reform Committee, including and should make a far greater effort than they are me, expressed their acute concern in their report on doing and there should be less variation in the country the Public Bodies Bill. All these things are coming if we are all agreed—as I assume that we are—that together. The Government, simply in terms of their registration ought to be maximised. The other point is own image, need to demonstrate that they are taking that, as I have indicated, at some stage we need to these matters more seriously than they seem to be at think about whether the Electoral Commission has the moment. enough power to say to the local authority, “You are It troubles me, as it troubles other Members, that, not doing well enough and we expect you to do better, particularly in the previous debate, which was so clearly or you will not get properly registered or certified”. on a matter of acute constitutional importance, virtually We really need to increase that power. As I understand no one took part—except one Liberal Democrat them, this amendment and the following amendment, Member—from the government Back Benches. I know, tabled by my noble friend Lord Lipsey, will both have and I challenge the Government to deny this, that all the effect of making it more likely that we will get the Back-Benchers from the political parties in the people to register than we will at the moment with the coalition have been instructed not to speak on that Bill. issue because it would take up time. I challenge them to deny that the Back-Benchers have been whipped Lord Campbell-Savours: Given that the Electoral not to take part in debates that add to the time on this Commission does not have this power, was it not Bill. That was particularly true in the previous debate. highly irresponsible of it to push individual registration on local authorities when it knew that it could not Viscount Eccles: My Lords— enforce it? Lord Soley: There are two views about individual Lord Soley: I will give way. I want to hear a clear registration. I understand the argument, but this is not indication that that did not happen, because I have the time to have it. I accept my noble friend’s underlying been told that it did. point: if we are going to give the Electoral Commission the power to enforce in some way or to put heavy Viscount Eccles: I have received no such instruction. pressure on the local authority, we will need to think I would not expect to receive one, and if I did I would through some of these underlying issues, because there pay no attention to it. is a legitimate argument on both sides of the point that he has just raised—even though I have one particular Noble Lords: Hear, hear! view, which I suspect is the same as his. Let me go back to my main point. If we are going Lord Soley: I am very encouraged by that. I have to to make sure that local authorities maximise registration, say, though, that I would rather hear it from the Front we really need to ensure not only that they have the Bench, because I am sure that this did not come round time to do it but that we, as a Parliament, put the in the form of a letter or even an e-mail. pressure on them to do it. Given that there is some acceptance that the Electoral Commission cannot enforce Lord Phillips of Sudbury: My Lords— this as fully as one would like, the Government need to say that each local authority will be asked to demonstrate Lord Soley: I will give way in a moment, if I can that it has maximised the registration on the voters take one intervention at a time. I know, as does everyone roll in its area and that it will be asked for evidence of who has dealt with party politics, that you advise your that, where there is a track record of its having a lower group not to do something in meetings and by word of registration than other, similar authorities. That could mouth. That is how it happens. be done in part by accepting these amendments, but there really needs to be some leadership from the Lord Phillips of Sudbury: The noble Lord threw Government on this issue. down the gauntlet and someone has to pick it up. The debate before the dinner break was on the Exactly as my noble friend has just said, no one has crucial issue—it is a central issue for me—of the said any such thing, and if they did—I must not use constitutional factor. We will return to that when my unparliamentary language—I would not be impressed. 1267 Parliamentary Voting System[LORDS] Parliamentary Voting System 1268

[LORD PHILLIPS OF SUDBURY] will simply say—and I will leave it on this point—that Lord Soley: I am delighted to hear that. I am sure in a situation where a Government are allowed to that Members did not receive e-mails or letters of that change the size of a Parliament, you cannot deny that type. However, I challenge the Front-Benchers again it is a major constitutional issue. The voting system is to give a clear indication that they did not tell Members not. The voting system and even registration are not on their Back Benches not to take part in the debate in major constitutional issues. They are very important a way that would add to the time taken on the Bill. I but they are not constitutional issues in the sense that want to hear that. changing the size of Parliament is.

Lord Campbell-Savours: They are refusing. Lord Martin of Springburn: Compared to the noble Lord, I am still an apprentice in the procedures of this Lord Soley: All I know is what I have been told. I House, but should we not be talking about the amendment respect people’s privacy, and I respect individuals who before us? That might be the best thing to do. say that it has not happened; I am sure that people on this side would say the same. But I also know, from all my experience in Parliament and in this House, that it Lord Soley: My noble friend still thinks that he is in happens in all parties—I am talking not just about my his previous role. If he was in that role here, he would party but about all parties, including mine; I have seen have ruled me out of order, which would be quite and heard it happen in all of them—that a right. However, we do not have that system. recommendation goes out that you do not take part because that will use up time when a Government are Lord Martin of Springburn: The noble Lord was the worried about time on their Bill. We all know that that chairman of the Parliamentary Labour Party. He would is what this Government are worried about. I would be never have allowed any Minister in the Labour Party less concerned about that if this were a conventional to tell Members not to speak. That would have been Bill, but on a constitutional Bill this is profoundly an invitation for them to speak. serious. Lord Soley: I am not sure that I wholly agree with Lord Mackay of Clashfern: My Lords, I am surprised that. I certainly would not encourage people to speak, to hear these suggestions. I have been here for some but let us be clear. Whips at all times have said, “If you little time now and, needless to say, I have never had speak on this from the other side, you will be here very advice from anyone not to speak. I am assuming that late tonight. Alternatively, we won’t get the Bill passed no such advice has gone out from the opposition in time”. What matters to the Government, on this Bill Front Bench to its Back Benches. more than any other, is time. That is what this is about. We need to be very clear about it, which is why I say Lord Soley: With respect, I am sure that the noble that what happened earlier was a filibuster in reverse. and learned Lord is one of those Members to whom It was a silent filibuster, if you like. That does not alter no one would say that—just as they also would not say the fact that, on this issue, my reason for arguing and it to me, actually. But I know the way in which it works the reason why we diverted is precisely that the registration in all political parties: when a Government are worried of citizens is important in the voting process. In the about time on a Bill, they try to get their Back-Benchers context of a Bill that is incredibly important to stay quiet and then they accuse the other side of constitutionally because of the power to alter the size filibustering. That is what we had today; the evidence of Parliament, you cannot argue that this is irrelevant. is before people. In that major constitutional debate, It is an important part of it. only one Member from the Liberal Democrats, who The Government need to show some willingness to suddenly got very angry about one aspect, spoke. Not move on these issues. If we agree that registration is one other Member spoke on the issue. not as good as it ought to be in this country and accept that at the moment the Electoral Commission does Lord Phillips of Sudbury: I am grateful to the noble not have as much power and authority as one would Lord for giving way. I cannot resist it when he is like it to have to instruct local authorities, there is a casting these aspersions across the Chamber. Can he duty on the Government to do more to make sure that assure the House that he has not received any instructions representation on the electoral roll is as good as it can to waffle on ad nauseam on this issue? be. I would expect leadership from the Government on that. I would expect them to stand up and say, “Yes, Lord Soley: I most certainly can. What is more, I we will do this and we will discuss with other political can go a bit further. At our meetings to discuss how to parties how to deliver it”. That is the sort of statement handle the Bill, there was a clear view that we should on which we need to get some cross-party agreement not filibuster. I say that categorically and give my for a very important Bill. word of honour. There was not one occasion when anybody supported the idea of filibustering. What we 9.45 pm have seen this afternoon, sadly, is the reverse of a filibuster. A government party—or two parties—refused Lord Howarth of Newport: My Lords, “more haste, to take part in a serious debate about the constitutional less speed” is a maxim that every Lib Dem Minister in matter of a Government taking on themselves the the coalition—and, perhaps, other Ministers—should power to change the size of Parliament. That is a pin up above their desks in large Day-Glo letters. We major issue. I do not want to make it directly relevant can see that the dynamic behind the Bill—and the to this debate, which is becoming slightly off-side. I reason why the coalition seeks to thrust it through as 1269 Parliamentary Voting System[10 JANUARY 2011] Parliamentary Voting System 1270 fast as it can—is the ambition of the Deputy Prime the pressure that this amendment would introduce Minister to establish himself as an effective constitutional into the system is extremely valuable. reformer and his anxiety that he does not have much I refer to another reason why we should be worried time in which to do it. How very much more important about what may happen to registration. Here I disagree it is to get it right than to do it hastily. That is why my with the noble Lord, Lord Martin of Springburn, as I noble friends were quite right to table this amendment am not confident that, as he said, local authorities will which would place some restraint on the Boundary necessarily have the resources to employ more electoral Commission process. registration officers. We are going to see very draconian reductions in local authority budgets and they will The noble Lord, Lord Tyler, talked about the Electoral find it very difficult to do anything that is not mandatory. Commission and the art of the possible. We ought Anything that is discretionary expenditure will be also to consider what it is reasonable and realistic to difficult for them to take on board. expect the Boundary Commission to do. As my noble and learned friend Lord Falconer said in his opening Lord Martin of Springburn: Given the size of local remarks, the proposition in the Bill that the Boundary authorities, it is not a question of having more electoral Commission will submit reports for the redrawing of officers but of having a specific official to look after effectively every constituency in the United Kingdom electoral registration. That person in turn would give in a short period of some two and a half years before an account of his or her stewardship to the Electoral 1 October 2013 is not a sensible thing to undertake to Commission. That is different from employing more do, and I do not think that it is a proper thing to people, and it is not the point. It will be a sad day, undertake to do. While there are all sorts of reasons given the size of local authorities in the United Kingdom, why it would be very difficult for the Boundary when there is no official in charge of electoral registration. Commission to do that satisfactorily, not least because it would be impossible for the citizens of this country Lord Howarth of Newport: I certainly share the to have the opportunity to make their representations noble Lord’s hope that that will indeed be the case, on the process in this abbreviated timescale, there is and it is important that it should be, because it will be also the factor of electoral registration. This amendment, more difficult for the regime which this amendment which focuses particularly on the indispensability of envisages to operate if local authorities do not have having a decent level of electoral registration before registration officers in place doing their work energetically we draw the boundaries of the new constituencies, is and with adequate resources. It is something on which absolutely right. You can reform electoral systems and we will need to keep a careful eye. I do not have quite constituency boundaries as much as you want but it the confidence that he does that that will necessarily will be a hollow process if you fail to ensure that those be the case. who should be the beneficiaries of these reforms—the I should like to make just one observation on citizens of this country—are in a position to benefit paragraph (b) of Amendment 54A, in which my noble from them. If you merely reform without ensuring friends have proposed that the Boundary Commission that people will be able to exercise their vote under should submit reports every sixth year, rather than your reformed system, it is effectively a case of Hamlet every fifth year, after 2013. That is wise for a number without the prince. of reasons, but at this time of the evening I shall mention only one of the reasons. If constituencies are The reasons for declining turnout at successive to be redrawn—and perhaps quite radically redrawn—at elections over a considerable period of our modern pretty frequent intervals, it creates problems for political history are mysterious and it is a very difficult parties. If political parties have to be re-formed election phenomenon to understand. There are a number of by election—and we know that they will all have to be proximate causes that we can see. The noble Lord, re-formed in the period between 2013 and 2015, if the Lord Martin of Springburn, drew the House’s attention election is postponed for that long, and also at quite to the decision by a significant number of people to frequent intervals thereafter—that creates a lot of drop off the electoral register when they saw the poll difficulties for political parties. tax heading towards the statute book. Certainly, more We know the problem—I suspect that all political of them did so after it had become law. That is one parties share this problem—of securing an adequate reason why, since the late 1980s, the electoral register membership. We need a degree of stability to ensure has not had the respect and integrity that it had before that political parties can perform their role. Healthy, then. There are other factors. We will see some new thriving political parties are a precondition for healthy, factors that will cause imperfections in the electoral thriving local government and for healthy, thriving register in our own time. One of them will, I fear, be parliamentary democracy. So I do not think that we the effect of housing benefit changes because more want to cause upheaval in political parties any more and more people, particularly tenants of private rented frequently than is really necessary.Of course the Boundary accommodation, will be on the move because they Commission reviews need to be of sufficient frequency cannot afford to continue to live in the same place in and of a regularity to ensure that they adequately which they were living. That will impair the electoral reflect the changing composition of the population of register; so will rising unemployment, particularly among this country. That is essential and we all acknowledge people who have been employees in the public sector. that. It is a question of judgment and of striking a They will also be on their bikes and on the road, trying balance between that imperative and what I think is to find work in new places. All that makes it more also very desirable, which is not to keep on throwing difficult to ensure that we will have an adequately up the system up in the air and destabilising political to date and comprehensive electoral register. Therefore, parties. For that reason, the modest change that my 1271 Parliamentary Voting System[LORDS] Parliamentary Voting System 1272

[LORD HOWARTH OF NEWPORT] propose to tackle that problem if, as seems to be his noble friends have proposed—having reviews every colleagues’ wont, they want to resist any improvement six years rather than every five years—makes good, to the electoral system? practical sense. Lord Lipsey: I am proposing to tackle it in the very Lord Lipsey: The nearest that any noble Lord comes same way as I hope he is proposing to tackle it—by to being economical with the truth is when they stand voting yes to AVwhenever we get round to the referendum, up and say they are going to be brief. Let me try, for whether on 5 May or, as I hope, a later date. once, to ignore that rule and be brief. First, we all agree that we need a better electoral Lord Phillips of Sudbury: I know that it is a shock register—that is common ground. Secondly, and slightly to see somebody rise from this side but perhaps I, too, less obviously, the accuracy of the electoral register may make a speculative intervention following what matters far more under the system that the Government the noble Lord, Lord Lipsey, has said. I have not are proposing for constituency boundary drawing than thought this through, but it seems to me that if it were it does at the moment. The Boundary Commission possible to take the number of potential electors—let now has reasonably wide discretion. If there is an us call them that—as the governing yardstick for the extra elector here, the commission can make an adjustment size of constituencies, then Amendment 54A becomes there. It cannot do that under the Bill. If there is one unnecessary because one would then be in the position voter more than the 5 per cent threshold, all the that all one needed to be satisfied about is that the boundaries of that seat, and in consequence the local authorities had done their work properly in time boundaries of all the surrounding seats, need to be for the election concerned. If, however, you take the redrawn. An upheaval can rest on whether a single system as it currently prevails, then the amendment of voter is registered. the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer of Thoroton, is the way to go. But, as I say, it would take away one I have a third point, and given that we are at of the time constraints if one was to go down the Committee stage, perhaps we are allowed to inject new Lipsey-Foulkes line, if I can call it that. ideas into the debate. I can see why the Government are reluctant to go along with the excellent amendment The other thing that is worth not forgetting—because moved by my noble and learned friend, because they a lot has been said about the difficulty, or more than think that it will delay the process. However, there is difficulty, of having everything sorted out by 1 October an alternative. Instead of the Boundary Commission 2013; a number of noble Lords opposite have made trying to equalise the actual number of registered that point—is that paragraph 37 of the report of the electors, it should try to equalise something different: Select Committee on the Constitution, to which a notional registered electors—that is, the electorate as number of noble Lords have referred, states: it would be if there was 100 per cent registration “The Boundary Commissions have confirmed that this timetable is achievable”. everywhere. That is perfectly achievable. That is to say, things will be sorted out by 1 October 2013. They, after all, should know what they are Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: That is exactly what my talking about. With that assurance, and with a new Amendment 89C proposes. The easiest solution would method of calculating the mean, it seems to me that be for the three wise men on the Front Bench opposite Amendment 54A may not be necessary. to agree now to accept that amendment later when I move it. Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: First, I welcome greatly the fact that someone on the other side is actually Lord Lipsey: The noble Lord has led me to be even participating properly in the debate—genuinely debating briefer, because I was about to refer to his and listening to the debate. I can reassure him. Just in Amendment 89C and to a similar amendment that I case the Government are preparing to say, “We cannot myself proposed. It is quite easy statistically to equalise work out, or we do not know, what the notional figure, notional electorates. It depends on, for example, the or the actual electorate, is”, how can they say that proportion of rented tenure in the given constituency. 91 per cent are registered here, or 85 per cent are Perfectly good equations can be developed that pretty registered there? There is no way of calculating the accurately project the notional electorate from the percentage unless they know the number of people actual electorate. Equalise those within whatever limit eligible to vote. the House may decide and you have a much more sensible approach than that which is in the current Lord Phillips of Sudbury: I agree with the noble draft of the Bill. Lord, Lord Foulkes.

Lord Tyler: I am grateful to the noble Lord for 10 pm giving way. Will he accept, even if some of his colleagues Lord Campbell-Savours: The noble Lord, Lord Phillips would not, that one of the disincentives to registration of Sudbury, has just quoted from a Boundary Commission is that people—perhaps particularly if they are transient document, which states that this is achievable. through the area—think that if it is a very safe seat, their vote simply will not matter? It is the correlation Lord Phillips of Sudbury: I hesitate to interrupt, but between safe seats under the first past the post system the quotation was from a report not of the Boundary and the disincentive not just to register but to bother Commission but of our own Select Committee on the to vote even if they do register. I think that at least he Constitution, which is rather more important in this will accept that that is one other reason. How does he respect. 1273 Parliamentary Voting System[10 JANUARY 2011] Parliamentary Voting System 1274

Lord Campbell-Savours: It may well be achievable worked on many issues over the years. However, I but on the basis of a deficient register. That is at the found his intervention extraordinary. It was almost core of our complaint. We do not accept that the like the intervention of a government Back-Bencher in review should take place on the back of a deficient the House of Commons desperately defending the register. position taken by the Government when clearly there I do not challenge my noble friend Lord Soley, but I is a deficiency in that position. What he is arguing do put it to him that when the Electoral Commission essentially is that it would be acceptable for the Boundary tells him that registration rates in London have gone Commission of England and Wales to set boundaries up, that is at variance with the statistics that have been and to change those boundaries on the basis of every published by the Office for National Statistics in Wales. local authority having not taken, The director-general wrote to Chris Ruane, a Member “reasonable steps to ensure that the electoral register is as complete in the other House who has led the charge on this issue and accurate as possible”. over recent years. He has tabled hundreds if not thousands That proposition is ludicrous. of Questions, and has a library of statistics that is of I suspect that the Government will resist this great interest to those of us who take an interest in amendment because they know that local authorities these matters. In June of last year, the director-general will not have the resources available. The issue has of the Office for National Statistics in Wales wrote been raised by my noble friends, and I have discussed to him: the Bill with a number of electoral registration officers “I have been asked to reply to your question asking what the in the past month, to which I have referred on previous electorate was in each year since 1997 in the 100 parliamentary occasions. They make it absolutely clear when I speak seats which have had the largest decrease in the number of electors on the register since that date … This is the latest year for to them discreetly that they are very concerned about which comparable data are available”. what might happen to their budgets in conditions of One can look at where the London boroughs stand in declining local authority expenditure. I cannot see this table of the bottom 100. I will start from the how the Government can assure us that we will gain bottom of the table. Kensington and Chelsea, the the high levels of registration that are required when Cities of London and Westminster, Regent’s Park and they know that they are subject to these cuts. They North Kensington, Holborn and St Pancras, Hampstead know equally that local authority budgets are not and Highgate, Hammersmith and Fulham, North ring-fenced, and I hold our own Labour Government Southwark and Bermondsey, Islington South and responsible for that. We allowed local authorities to Finsbury, Brent East—I intervene at this stage to proceed on the basis that those budgets would not be suggest that they are not doing well in London, despite ring-fenced. If we had decided to ring-fence them at what the Electoral Commission might say—Wimbledon, the time, we might not be arguing as we are arguing Vauxhall, Tottenham, Lewisham, Deptford, Islington, today. We are arguing in fear of the fact that we know Hackney. There are more that I could reel off. that electoral registration levels will not be as high as The noble Lord, Lord Tyler, tells us that the they should be. problem does not necessarily arise in the way that we I have another reason. I think that the Government suggest because many of these are safe seats where are not prepared to secure the high levels of registration people do not think that it is worth voting. I argue that in the inner cities that are essential to make registration most of the seats in London that I referred to are work. When we dealt with the Bill on electoral registration, highly marginal. I talked to electoral registration officers the first time the Labour Government tried to push through individual Lord Soley: The figures that my noble friend gives registration in the teeth of opposition from some of are very important. I will look at them and draw them us. This was about 2006 when my noble friend Lord to the attention of the Electoral Commission to get its Bach was in Committee. He will remember the response. Without being sure what we are comparing amendments that I moved to try to block individual here, it is difficult to be confident. The statement registration. The fact is that parts of Britain’s inner about the London boroughs was, to the best of my cities are completely inaccessible to electoral registration memory, that registration had gone up and stabilised. officers. There are no-go areas in Britain’s inner cities. That was in the last report of the Electoral Commission. There are places where you cannot send canvassers. I do not know what date the statement related to, but I You cannot pay them to go into those areas because am happy to take on board the figures and ask for an they are frightened of violence. explanation of them. When I raised that problem on a previous occasion, people said that it did not arise. Why do they not go Lord Campbell-Savours: Perhaps I may tell my noble into the inner cities and talk to the people who have to friend exactly what the figures relate to. The percentages knock on doors, ask the questions and hand over the were calculated using the mid-2007 population estimates forms? There is a real problem here. I had a number of for parliamentary constituencies in the United Kingdom conversations with electoral registration officers and I of those aged 18 and above and the number of people felt so angry that I wrote to the Committee on Standards registered to vote in parliamentary elections on in Public Life, when it was inquiring into the Electoral 1 December 2007. We have a clear description of what Commission a few years back, to complain that the we are talking about. No doubt the Electoral Commission commission had failed to consider that matter when it will pore over our contributions to this debate and was pushing electoral registration on Members of respond to us accordingly. Parliament in the hope that they would get Parliament I turn to the position of the noble Lord, Lord Tyler. to approve individual registration. It got it in the end He knows that I have huge respect for him. We have because the Government backed the recommendation. 1275 Parliamentary Voting System[LORDS] Parliamentary Voting System 1276

[LORD CAMPBELL-SAVOURS] the Government are a combined operation and have a Lord Tyler: If the situation is as dire as the noble majority. That is unhealthy. This is a constitutional Lord suggests in a minority but nevertheless presumably Bill, so that is entirely wrong. The rush to get it in a number of local authorities, I do not understand through is causing problems. It is causing problems for how the requirements of his noble friend’s amendment the Government, because I can read people’s faces to could possibly be met. a certain extent, and although the noble Lords on the Front Bench try very hard, they are not convincing all Lord Campbell-Savours: That is precisely the point. their Members. At this stage, most of them are voting The amendment says that, for it—I think that the occasional Peer may vanish—but “all reasonable steps to ensure”, they are not winning the intellectual argument, because must be taken. We might well have to invest additional those on our Front Bench are putting the case. resources in the inner cities for canvassing teams to go The rush through this House is causing strains. It is around with forms to ensure that people are being causing noble Lords on the government Front Bench properly registered. Unless there is an enforcement to act in a manner which, with two exceptions, is regime to deal with that problem, you will not get the foreign to their character. I do not know about the electoral registration levels that are required. third one, but certainly for two of them it is foreign to Furthermore, the problem is escalating. I intervened their character. Surely the electoral register has to be on the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace of right before we start drawing boundaries on the basis Tankerness, last week on when the subsequent boundary of it. review—not the next one—will take place. It will take The amendment would ensure that the Boundary place on the basis of a register that he has drawn up on Commission had to do everything “reasonable”—that individual registration. I see a much larger problem is the key word—to ensure that people were registered arising in the long term, in perhaps seven or eight to vote. Earlier, a noble Lord mentioned that we years’ time—not at the next election, but at the election cannot make folk vote. As a noble friend of mine said, after—which Parliament has not even begun to consider. that is a different argument. It is our job as When we dealt with this matter during the course of parliamentarians—Government and loyal Opposition—to the Bill on electoral registration, we did not consider it ensure that people want to register and have that because we did not realise that we would be faced with choice. It would be outrageous if they did not have the nonsense that we are being faced with today. that choice. If they do not vote, that is a condemnation As I said, I do not believe that the resources are of us all. We all have a duty to try to get there, but no there. They must be made available to ensure that the one party or combination of parties should have the electoral register is as complete and accurate as possible power to legislate, especially when it is changing the before the Boundary Commission can complete its constitution of the country. work. 10.15 pm Lord McAvoy: My Lords, bearing in mind the late The harsh realities of local government life, especially time of the evening, I will also try to be relatively brief. in the next year or so at least, will be cuts. There is not First, I apologise to my noble and learned friend Lord a statutory duty on a local authority to have a positive Falconer of Thoroton for missing the first moments of electoral registration policy and to go out and look for his moving the amendment. I am inspired to speak by people to register. The harsh reality is that the pressure an encounter with my friend with a small ‘f’, the noble is on councils to deliver a social work department, Lord, Lord Tyler, who earlier this evening urged me to especially for the elderly and children, or an education speak in the debate because he had missed my dulcet department and, life and human nature being what tones, as he put it. I am always at the disposal of the they are, electoral registration is nebulous and not an noble Lord, Lord Tyler, for that. immediate thing for the people concerned. That is the The noble Lord, Lord Martin of Springburn, referred damage that this coalition Government are doing to to Strathclyde Regional Council’s electoral registration democracy. I do not think it is an evil coalition; I do duties. I was for five years a councillor on Strathclyde not think the coalition Government are there to do Regional Council, and I can testify to the noble Lord’s bad things deliberately; but the effect is bad, and that account of how it took its duties seriously. We were is the damage they are doing to democracy. severely affected in Scotland and—my noble friend A previous friendly skirmish with my good old Lord Howarth of Newport has referred to this—are quarry, the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, prompted me to still affected by the poll tax. The integrity, the aura, if table a Question to the noble and learned Lord, Lord you like, of the electoral register has been damaged. It Wallace of Tankerness, regarding over-18 populations is no longer an article of faith to make sure that you and those who are registered. For instance, in my are registered. Lasting damage has been done to former constituency of Rutherglen and Hamilton West democracy by the imposition of the poll tax. in 2008, the population was 80,103 but the electorate In discussing the Bill, I keep thinking that something came to 77,363, which is an imbalance of almost is ajar or unbalanced. This is a constitutional Bill. One 3,000. I know that the noble and learned Lord, Lord combination of votes in a House of Parliament can Wallace, may say that because the register is going to force through constitutional change, especially in a be taken from December 2010, there is a hope—it can House where, previously, no single combination had be only a hope—that they will have caught those the majority to deliver such legislation. I know that missing people and got them on. I trust the figures of some people will jump up and say, “We are a coalition; the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace of Tankerness, we are still Conservatives and Liberals”. In this place, and arithmetic was never my strong point, but when I 1277 Parliamentary Voting System[10 JANUARY 2011] Parliamentary Voting System 1278 totalled all the different figures, there was a disparity points that my noble and learned friend Lord Falconer of 281,000 people over 18 in Scotland who were not made in his introductory remarks. The fact that a registered to vote in mid-2008. Without a measure as complete review has to be made of every constituency contained in this amendment tabled by my noble and in this country is a measure of the scale of what is learned friend, I do not see how that can be made up. involved here. If the coalition Government were prepared Surely 283,000 is a massive disparity. I understand the to look at that, I am sure that we could together work pressure of getting a Bill through the House, although to find a way that would help to reassure people that at I have never resorted to writing notes or anything like least the lowest common denominator is not acceptable. that. The figure of 281,000 was only a couple of years ago, and who is to know what the disparity is now? The figures for 1 December 2010 will not be published The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Wallace until February, so I cannot refer to them. It is quite of Tankerness): My Lords, I thank the noble and clear that there is a lot of work to be done on the learned Lord, Lord Falconer of Thoroton, for this register. amendment, which has given us an opportunity to I am surprised that somebody has not jumped up raise the two issues—the double barrels, as the noble and said that the previous Labour Government did Lord, Lord Foulkes of Cumnock, referred to it—of not do anything about this. Is it going to be the noble the timetable for the boundary review and the very and learned Lord, Lord Wallace? That is fine, but the important issue of trying to ensure that the electoral difference is that if the previous Labour Government register is as accurate as it can be. In the spirit of the can be criticised for not doing enough on that, that comments from the noble Baroness, Lady Liddell, and previous Labour Government was not undemocratically the noble Lords, Lord Lipsey and Lord Foulkes, I changing the constitution of this country. That is the want to make it clear that this should not be a partisan difference because that is what is happening. I am glad issue with regard to trying to ensure that as many that the noble Lord took over to raise that while I am people who are eligible to register do register. on my feet. We have this problem with registration. If Perhaps I should also say at the outset, if it keeps this amendment is not the proper way to go about the noble Lord, Lord Soley, happy, that I have not doing something about it, I do not hear anything asked any of my colleagues not to speak. I know full coming from the government Front Bench to tackle well what their reaction would be if I tried to do so. that disparity, and I look forward to hearing whether Maybe he will interpret my not asking them not to there is any positive response to the justified fears that speak as being to encourage them—I hope noble are being expressed. Lords follow me.

Baroness Liddell of Coatdyke: My Lords, I promise Lord Soley: I want it to be clear that no one on the the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace of Tankerness, government payroll has asked Members not to speak that I will genuinely be brief. I had not intended because of the time that it takes. intervening in this debate, but it occurred to me as I was listening that if, for some bizarre reason, BBC Parliament and Radio 1 got confused and Radio 1 Lord Wallace of Tankerness: I think that I have listeners had to listen to the nature of the debate we made it clear that I have not asked any of my colleagues have had tonight, they would assume that this House not to speak. I am not quite sure that I could make it had been overtaken by Martians because we are talking any clearer than that. geek language. We are geeks, and we live the language With regard to the timetable, the indication we have of electoral registers and the necessity to get people given is that we wish the changes in Part 2 to be in involved in the democratic process. effect for the election due to take place in May 2015. But if we take it right back to basics, we have to be One could say that that is dependent on the Fixed-term honest on all sides of this House that the craft of Parliaments Bill, but in any event, even under our politics is held in very low regard in this country at the present constitutional arrangements for the timing of present time. We have an opportunity with this amendment elections, the latest date would be May 2015. It is the to go some little way towards trying to restore that. wish of the Government that constituency sizes should This should not be a partisan point. Those of us be of an equal size in time for that election. That is interested in democracy and in the constitution of this why we are asking the Boundary Commissions to country do so from the best possible motives. The way bring forward their reports by October 2013. That in which the Bill is crafted reads as if the lowest would give time between the reports—one for each common denominator would be acceptable; that is, to constituent nation of the United Kingdom—being get a register regardless of how accurate that register is. published and an opportunity for the parties, the If we are to make a breakthrough particularly with importance of which I think someone mentioned, to young people, disadvantaged people and those who gear up, as it were, to what will be different boundaries. feel that they are outside the system, if they turn up at With regard to the issue that I think was raised by a polling place and find that they are not on that the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, and the noble and register, we will have undone all the work that all of us learned Lord, Lord Falconer, about whether this is in this House want to see done to re-engage people feasible, my noble friend Lord Phillips quoted from with the craft of politics. I urge the noble and learned the Constitution Committee report where the Boundary Lord, Lord Wallace of Tankerness—I know that his Commission had indicated that it would be feasible. In freedom of manoeuvre is limited—at least to say that giving evidence to the committee in another place, the he will look at these issues and the very important secretary of the Boundary Commission for Wales said: 1279 Parliamentary Voting System[LORDS] Parliamentary Voting System 1280

[LORD WALLACE OF TANKERNESS] “the Electoral Commission has certified that every local authority “I don’t think the timescales for Wales are going to be too has taken all reasonable steps to ensure that the electoral register challenging”. is as complete and accurate as possible”. The question was then directed to the secretary of the That is quite a steep requirement. My noble friend Boundary Commission for England, which is obviously Lord Tyler questioned whether it would be appropriate much larger. He said: for the Electoral Commission to make subjective “Taking a potential worst case scenario, based upon what is in judgments in cases that could have major consequences the Bill in front of us, the initial view of myself and the Commission for a boundary review, and the noble Lord, Lord is that the timetable is achievable”. Campbell-Savours, raised some of the practical difficulties The noble and learned Lord went on to ask why not that again were picked up in an exchange with my do this in two and a half years every time, and why noble friend Lord Tyler. I would simply observe that if institute five-yearly reviews after that? The reason is the Electoral Commission decided that, in its judgment, that a five-yearly review would mean that there would one local authority in the whole of the United Kingdom be a boundary review in each Parliament. If he thinks had not done this, a boundary review could be put off about it, with a two and a half year or three-year indefinitely. It certainly would not be in time for the review, you could have two reviews within one Parliament 2015 election, it might not be in time for the 2020 election, and a boundary review producing constituencies for and it might not even be in time for the 2025 election. an election that would not take place. I am sure he That is the possible logical consequence of the amendment agrees that that would be farcical. That is the reason put forward by the noble and learned Lord. for the five-yearly review, and later we will debate If there was a problem with a boundary review other amendments regarding seven and eight year where the baseline for the review would be 1 December reviews. As was noted by the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, 2010, if we held elections in 2020 or 2025 where the the second part of the amendment has a six-yearly boundaries for England were based on a baseline of review. We believe that a review every five years would data from the year 2000, that really does not address mean that in each Parliament, if the Fixed-term the very legitimate issues he has raised with regard to Parliaments Bill goes through, there is less likely to be people who might be eligible to vote but might not be disruption. The more frequent the reviews, the less the on the electoral roll. opportunity for wide divergence and therefore the less would be the likelihood of disruption. 10.30 pm Lord Falconer of Thoroton: I wish to intervene very Lord Campbell-Savours: Does the Minister really briefly on the quotations used by the noble and learned think that it is fair to draw boundaries in the inner Lord from the secretaries of the Boundary Commissions cities on the basis of electoral registration figures that for England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, have been damaged by the fact that a whole canvass when they gave evidence to the Political and Constitutional was not possible? Surely that full canvass has to be Reform Committee of the other place. The note I have completed and maximum registration achieved before confirms that the secretary of the Boundary Commission we can even begin to consider redrawing the boundaries. for England said that the timetable was “achievable By not agreeing with me, the Minister is conceding, in but tight” and that, the case of the argument about violence, that violence “extra resources would certainly be needed”. in many ways pays. I do not know what date it is assumed that the process would start and what extra resources would be provided. Lord Wallace of Tankerness: I am only indicating that it could be a circumstance in which the Electoral Lord Wallace of Tankerness: I am not making any Commission may take that view. All the problems that presumption about the date it will start because it the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, identified would depend on Royal Assent, and therefore I am may well have been addressed, but there may be a not going to speculate on when that might be. I know recalcitrant council somewhere in the country which, that the noble and learned Lord has a later amendment for one reason or another, has not done that. regarding resources, tabled for the avoidance of doubt. I remind the Committee that electoral registration When we come to it, he will see that it is not necessary officers are under a statutory duty to compile and because as the Bill stands, the resources ought to be maintain comprehensive and accurate electoral registers. there to be drawn on for the purposes of this review. If It is not as if it is a voluntary activity; there is an he thinks about it, given all the comments made by obligation on local authorities to compile as best they noble Lords opposite about the Government wishing can comprehensive and accurate electoral registers. As to get this piece of legislation through, they are hardly was commented on earlier, the Electoral Commission’s likely to wish then to frustrate it through lack of report on performance standards for electoral registration resources. That is perhaps self-evident. We will have a officers in Great Britain, published in March, showed better opportunity to discuss the level of resources that just under 96 per cent of electoral registration when we come to that particular amendment, but I officers met the completeness and accuracy of electoral would assure him that we do not anticipate that the registration records standard this year. issue of resources will be a barrier to the timetable I salute what Glasgow has done—the noble Lord, being delivered. Lord McAvoy, mentioned this—and that should be Perhaps we may move on to the other barrel of the the model. It is important that we have as accurate and amendment, which would have the effect of delaying comprehensive registers as possible. It is worth reminding the boundary reviews until such time as, the Committee that another report of the Electoral 1281 Parliamentary Voting System[10 JANUARY 2011] Parliamentary Voting System 1282

Commission, The Completeness and Accuracy of Electoral to identify people not currently on the register—for Registers in Great Britain, also published in March, example, the national insurance and DVLA databases. stated that the UK’s registration rate of 91 to 92 per Those are the pilots that we want to set up. cent compared well with other countries. I am sure that that touches on the question of notional registration, Lord Maxton: I am delighted to hear the noble and which I am sure we will debate further when we come learned Lord say that, because we have to use all the to Amendment 89C—I am grateful to the noble Lord, public databases available to us to ensure that we have Lord Foulkes, for advance notice of it. The 91 to an accurate register. We should start with a register 92 per cent figure for completeness is derived from the and then check off its accuracy rather than the other 2000 census, but it is an approximate measure. It could way around. Could school records be included? That not form the basis of a boundary review as it does not is one source where you know that someone leaves provide sufficiently robust data to give confidence for school at the age of 16 and you know where they live. something such as a boundary review. However, I take Would it be possible to use those data for the electoral the noble Lord’s point and I shall carefully look at his register? amendment before we come to debate it. Lord Wallace of Tankerness: I hesitate because I do Lord Howarth of Newport: Is the noble and learned not want to say anything definite if there are data Lord saying that this reforming Government are really protection problems, but that is a positive suggestion satisfied that the present condition of electoral registers and one that I will no doubt look at to see if it can be will do, that they are as complete and accurate as they done. The noble Lord is absolutely right. It is one need to be, and that it is therefore perfectly acceptable possible way and if it can legitimately be done I am to go ahead with the boundary reforms on the timescale sure that it will help. The pilots will be tried later this that is written into the Bill? Is he really saying that we year. The precise locations have yet to be confirmed, can be complacent and be satisfied with the state of but a report will be published by the Electoral Commission affairs that we have at the moment, particularly in the towards the end of the year. When pilots have been light of what my noble friend said about Bradford? run, it will be possible to broaden the scope. This is not an either/or. It is important that we do Lord Wallace of Tankerness: I am rather disappointed this. However, if we were to proceed with the amendment, because I have tried my best to listen to what noble not only is it possible that one or two councils would Lords have said, and I rather regret that the noble not be certified by the Electoral Commission before Lord, Lord Howarth, did not listen to me at the very the 2025 election, but even on the basis of the 2015 outset when I said that I hoped that there was common election we would still be using data for England that ground in our not being satisfied that people who are would be 15 years old. If there are 3.5 million people eligible to be on the electoral roll are not. That should missing, I suspect that the data for 2000 are even more concern noble Lords in all parts of the Chamber. I damaging. There is a difference between the data that apologise if I did not make that clear enough to the are used for calculating the numbers for the constituencies noble Lord. and the important objective year in, year out to make sure that the electoral roll is as up to date as possible Lord Howarth of Newport: Is the Minister saying and that people are on it who ought to be on it. that he is happy for the legislation to proceed on the basis of the present condition of electoral registers? Baroness McDonagh: I thank the Minister for his comments. I certainly appreciate some of the things Lord Wallace of Tankerness: I am saying that I do that he is looking at. However, to return to the point not believe that it is an either/or. The noble Lord, about evaluation of the registration system used by Lord McAvoy, mentioned the previous Labour the Government, is he aware that this is self-assessment Government. I think it is fair to say that 3.5 million and that there is no independent validation of the people have not suddenly disappeared from the electoral system that the Electoral Commission uses? Will he register since 5 May 2010. Indeed, the figures which look at an independent validation of the system? the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, gave related to mid-2008. It is a problem that occurred under the previous Lord Wallace of Tankerness: I hesitate because I am Administration; it is a problem which we must address. not entirely sure that I fully understand what the noble It is not as if we are sitting back; we are being far from Baroness is asking me to do. I am sure that it is one of complacent. The noble Lord, Lord Soley, said that the things that I can look at in the record. there should be some leadership. I indicate to him and to the Committee that a pilot will be launched for Baroness McDonagh: My point is that the figure local authorities to compare the electoral register against that the noble and learned Lord is using of 96 per cent public databases to identify people who are not currently validation that the register has been compiled to the on the register. best of the person’s ability is completed by the person There are other things, such as the door-to-door operating the system. They are the ones who sign a canvass, which has been referred to, and the importance form to say that the work has been done adequately. of going back to contact people who have not responded, There is no independent validation of the electoral which there is an obligation to do. It is important that registration system in this country. As part of the councils use their own data, such as council tax data. process that he is looking at in terms of data and so Some do and I understand that some do not, but it is on, will he look at whether it is possible to have an important that they use that data. There ought to be independent validation of the system that is operated, other data. We are looking at using public databases as happens in most other government agencies? 1283 Parliamentary Voting System[LORDS] Parliamentary Voting System 1284

Lord Wallace of Tankerness: There are two points by October 2013, which is what the Bill currently there. The first is that the figure that we have been proposes, when there is agreement across the House using of 96 per cent comes from a report published by that hitherto it has taken between six and seven years the Electoral Commission. It was not published by the to complete such a review. I was looking for the Government. That is a matter that will need to be reasons why that which hitherto has taken six to seven taken up with the Electoral Commission. The point years can be dealt with between the date upon which that the noble Baroness has made will be drawn to the this Bill gets Royal Assent—a date we know not but Electoral Commission’s attention. The second point assume is some time in the next few months—and underlines that it is not necessarily the wisest move to October 2013. say that the Electoral Commission then has to make a The evidence that the noble and learned Lord relied subjective judgment as to whether the terms and on was that the secretaries of the Boundary Commissions conditions of the certification that is inherent in this had said to the Political and Constitutional Committee amendment are met or not. that they think it can be done but—he might have disputed this—that the timetable would be tight. How Lord Campbell-Savours: Following what my noble will it be done? I do not know and it strikes me, from friend said, why can there not be a random selection, a my knowledge of the way that such bodies operate, pilot project, to check whether the statistics to which that to manage a much more complicated and difficult my noble friend referred are accurate? It might well be review than they have ever done before—it will touch that local authorities are not submitting particularly every single constituency in the country—sounds accurate returns. I presume that these figures from unrealistic. I do not in any way criticise the noble and local authorities come from electoral registration learned Lord for his answer but it did not really offer departments. They could maybe take a dozen local an explanation to me that provided any consistent authorities in various parts of this country and check explanation as to how this marvellous process could whether that is the case. Secondly, when the Minister be done so much more quickly. referred to the pilot projects before, is it true that the The second point is that we should really make pilots, and the registration levels that arise as a result, efforts to ensure that people who are not registered are will not influence the statistics that are to be used by registered. The noble and learned Lord made the quite the Boundary Commission in its review? valid point that surely not every single local authority has to comply. Maybe we should have some rule or Lord Wallace of Tankerness: The first point is, as I process that says “substantially all” local authorities have indicated, a matter for the Electoral Commission. should comply, but that was his only point. I am At least two noble Lords in this debate—the noble willing to be guided by him: he might produce some Lord, Lord Soley, and my noble friend Lord Tyler—have proposal if he thinks mine is too draconian. Let us identified themselves as advisers to the Electoral give more room for manoeuvre. Every single person Commission. These points will have been noted. who has spoken in the debate has said that we should As I confirmed in a debate before the Christmas do something about underregistration. If our idea was Recess, the base for this boundary review was this too draconian, I would have expected the noble and 1 December past and the next one will be 1 December learned Lord to have come forward with some idea 2015, if this Bill goes through in full. That is more about how we would achieve that which appears to be likely to be able to take account of the information an aim shared by all Members of the House. from these pilots, and, I hope, broaden that out. I I thank the noble and learned Lord for taking the understand that there are issues on the Benches opposite trouble to respond in the way that he did, but I have to about individual registration. It is more likely that say that his reply was disappointing. Of course I will these will be taken into account quicker than were we not ask the House to divide at this time of night, but I to wait for the day when certification comes from the will certainly come back on Report with an amendment Electoral Commission, as is proposed in the noble and to deal with the unrealistic timetable for the first learned Lord’s amendment. I therefore invite the noble review and to propose how one might deal with the and learned Lord to withdraw his amendment. issue of under-registration. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Lord Falconer of Thoroton: I am grateful for the trouble that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace Amendment 54A withdrawn. of Tankerness, has taken here. As he rightly says, there are two bits to this. The first part of my amendment House resumed. questions the proposition that you could effectively complete a review of every constituency in this country House adjourned at 10.46 pm. WS 185 Written Statements[10 JANUARY 2011] Written Statements WS 186

The Government have decided not to proceed with Written Statements the proposed Civil Law Reform Bill, which was published Monday 10 January 2011 for pre-legislative scrutiny and public consultation in December 2009. The Government are grateful to the Armed Forces: Medical Services Justice Committee for its scrutiny of the draft Bill and Statement to everyone who replied to the consultation for their comments, but in the present financial situation we The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry need to focus our resources on delivering our key of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever): My honourable priorities. friend the Minister for Defence Personnel, Welfare Several of the provisions in the Civil Law Reform and Veterans (Andrew Robathan) has made the following Bill were derived from Law Commission reports. The Written Ministerial Statement. damages provisions were derived from the following The Midlands Medical Accommodation (MMA) reports published in the late 1990s: Claims for Wrongful project aims to create, by March 2014, a new community Death (Law Com No 263); Damages for Personal of excellence—clinical, research and training at the Injury: Medical, Nursing and Other Expenses; Collateral Defence Medical Services establishments of Whittington Benefits (Law Com No 262); and Aggravated, Exemplary near Lichfield and in Birmingham, both located in the and Restitutionary Damages (Law Com No 247). The West Midlands. The project will be delivered in three provisions relating to interest derived in part from the phases of incremental acquisition, of which increment 1 Commission’s 2004 report Pre-judgment Interest on is complete. I am pleased to say that the funding for Debts and Damages (Law Com No 295). These reforms increment 2 is now in place, and a contract for the will not now be taken forward. associated work has been awarded to Carillion plc, subject to conditions precedent. I have today placed in the Libraries of both Houses copies of my letter to the right honourable Sir Alan increment 1 has already delivered a modern headquarters Beith MP,chairman of the Justice Committee, informing office building in which the surgeon general’s strategic him of the Government’s decision, and the response headquarters and the headquarters of the Joint document to the consultation. Medical Command are now collocated and fully operational; Department for Communities and Local increment 2 will create a modern training centre. This will include new training facilities; a new learning Government centre; a new lecture theatre; new messes for officers Statement and for warrant officers and senior non-commissioned officers; service living accommodation for officers The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, (permanent staff) and a new junior ranks’ dining Department for Communities and Local Government and leisure facility. These will replace the existing (Baroness Hanham): My right honourable friend the facilities at Keogh Barracks, which would require Secretary of State for Communities and Local levels of investment that compare unfavourably with Government (Eric Pickles) has made the following those of the project; and Written Ministerial Statement. increment 3, running along side increment 2, will I would like to update honourable Members on the provide modern single living accommodation. This main items of business undertaken by my department is part of the ongoing upgrade programme approved since the House rose on Tuesday 21 December 2010. under project SLAM. Community Rights The MMA project will draw together the currently The department has recognised the important role dispersed components of the Defence Medical Services. that pubs and clubs can play at the centre of the local The foundation of a close geographic community community. On 30 December we announced a review around Lichfield and Birmingham will encourage long- of restrictive covenants preventing precious community term life and career choices, particularly about stability, pubs reopening again as public houses or entertainment housing and education. This community will become venues. This review is in line with the department’s a central and enduring feature in the life of the Defence commitment to cutting red tape and devolving real Medical Services. It will be a firm base from which to power to local communities. By changing the use of exploit and sustain progress in military medicine, restrictive covenants, communities will have greater and a community providing respite from the intense opportunity to use the community right to buy powers demands of operational service. The Midlands Medical to take over local pubs if they come up for sale and Accommodation project lays the foundation of a cohesive ensure important hubs of community life remain open. community of excellence and fellowship that will meet, Transparency with confidence, the strategic imperative to deliver military healthcare. Six months ago I wrote to all councils, calling on them to throw open their files to make local government spending more transparent and show that waste is Civil Law Reform Bill being eradicated. Councils need to show they have Statement done everything possible to reduce waste and duplication The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord to save taxpayers’ money and protect front-line services. McNally): My honourable friend the Parliamentary The department continues in its drive for open and Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Justice (Jonathan transparent government, and on 1 January issued a Djanogly) has made the following Written Ministerial new year’s reminder to local authorities that they are Statement. expected to publish their spending data over £500 online WS 187 Written Statements[LORDS] Written Statements WS 188 by the end of January 2011 in accessible formats. Over them taking part in decisions on which they have 180 councils have already shown their commitment to campaigned or expressed a predisposed view. Under a democratic accountability and rooting out waste by measure contained in the Localism Bill, these restrictions opening their books for public scrutiny ahead of the will be amended to give councillors the powers to deadline. This includes publishing details of senior champion the needs of local residents. pay, councillor expenses, minutes of meetings, and any Delivering More Homes useful front-line service data of interest to residents or On 5 January my ministerial colleague, the Minister entrepreneurs. of State for Housing, set out our intention to develop Removing Parking Restrictions from National Planning an action plan to boost the number of self-builders Policy across the country—and address the common barriers We trust councils and communities to know what is aspiring self-builders face, including availability of best for their local area, and we are continuing to land, finance and expert advice. The self-build sector devolve greater powers to enable them to act on their is already important to growth and housing supply, own. with self-builders completing as many as 10,000 building projects each year, so making it easier for more people On 3 January in conjunction with the Secretary of to build their own home will provide a welcome boost State for the Department of Transport, we removed to the housing market. national planning guidance that required councils to limit the number of parking spaces allowed in new On 7 January I introduced new safeguards to restrict residential developments and to set higher parking the use of empty dwelling management orders. These charges to encourage use of other forms of transport. heavy-handed rules, which were introduced in 2006, Councils and communities are now free to set parking mean that people who leave their house empty for policies that are the best fit for their local area and for more than six months risk having it confiscated. Homes residents. These changes to planning policy will allow at risk do not have to be blighted or boarded up and councils to set competitive local parking charges to can be taken over even if they are already on the promote town centres and attract shoppers to the high property market, if councils believe the asking price is street. Councils will also be able to decide the right unrealistic. number of parking spaces for new residential development, I am concerned that there is a risk that councils helping to alleviate the problems of on-street parking could use the orders inappropriately to instigate action congestion. against homeowners in vulnerable situations. It is wrong The Government recognise that for many people that a bereaved family could face having their loved cars are a lifeline, and we want to make it easier for one’s home taken over for a period if there is a delay in motorists to make greener choices. Alongside steps them deciding what to do with it. already taken by the Department for Transport, we So I am limiting use of the orders to empty properties also outlined more support for drivers of electric and that have become magnets for vandalism, squatters plug-in hybrid vehicles. On 3 January, we announced and other forms of anti-social behaviour. A property our intention to allow charging points to be built on will also have to stand empty for at least two years streets and in outdoor car parks without the need for before an order can be obtained, and property owners planning permission, removing bureaucracy and ensuring will have to be given at least three months’ notice that making a green choice does not mean making a before the order can be issued. These new safeguards less convenient choice. We have also urged councils to will ensure that responsible homeowners do not face follow this lead and promote electric vehicle charging having their properties seized. points in new developments. Delivering Services The combination of severe snow and the festive Health: Influenza break created a major headache for many councils, Statement and I pay tribute to the refuse collectors and other staff who have braved severe conditions to make their rounds. None the less it is clear that there has been The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, widespread public concern at the extent of the disruption Department of Health (Earl Howe): My right honourable to collections in some local authority areas. On 4 January friend the Secretary of State for Health (Andrew my ministerial colleague, the Parliamentary Under- Lansley) has made the following Written Ministerial Secretary for Local Government, wrote to all council Statement. leaders to stress the importance of delivering high-quality waste and recycling services that meet local needs. Seasonal flu virus circulates each year and this year The Government stand ready to work with the Local is no exception. This Statement is to update Parliament Government Association councils and Defra to ensure following developments during the Recess. this happens. Seasonal flu is different to the outbreak of pandemic flu in 2009, when a new flu virus emerged (H1N1, or Predetermination swine flu) against which humans (particularly those Councillors play a vial role in the local community aged under 65) had little or no natural immunity. and they should be free to act in the best interest of the When the pandemic flu virus emerged in 2009, our people they are elected to serve. On 4 January the pandemic preparedness plans were triggered. These department highlighted the restrictions placed upon plans entailed the mass distribution of antiviral drugs, them under so-called predetermination rules, preventing the launch of the National Flu Line, and a Catch it, WS 189 Written Statements[10 JANUARY 2011] Written Statements WS 190

Bin it, Kill it advertising campaign designed to help which is lower than that recorded during the pandemic members of the public understand how they could in 2009-10 and below the epidemic level of 200 per limit the spread of flu. 100,000 people. Nevertheless, given that they reached There is no flu pandemic this year, so these plans these levels I have taken the decision to reinstate the have not been triggered. Although the H1N1 virus is Catch it, Bin it, Kill it campaign. circulating, it is now one of the seasonal flu strains. Data indicate that this year’s flu has resulted in This is because when it circulated in 2009-10, it helped greater than usual numbers of patients requiring critical to establish a residual level of immunity in people care. These patients have largely been infected with exposed to it, which means that H1N1 now circulates H1N1, and the pattern is consistent with H1N1’s like other seasonal flu viruses. characteristics last year. As a result, where necessary, In the United Kingdom, the H1N1 and influenza B local NHS organisations have increased their critical viruses are the strains of flu that are circulating widely. care capacity, in part by delaying routine operations H1N1 is the predominant virus, and is behaving—as requiring critical care back-up. This is a normal expected—as it did in 2009-10. This means that H1N1 operational process, which is initiated by NHS is likely to infect younger people—particularly those organisations at the local level; critical care capacity is with underlying disease—and pregnant women. not “fixed” but is always able to flex in this way according to local need. A seasonal flu vaccine is available this year, as in previous years. This vaccine protects against all three In addition, over the last month we have increased strains of flu which the World Health Organisation the number of so-called ECMO beds—for patients identified would be most likely to circulate this year. with the most severe disease—from 5 to 22. Surveillance data show that these strains are circulating The number of deaths this winter from flu verified and that the vaccine is a good match. by the Health Protection Agency currently is 50, with General practitioners (GPs) order seasonal flu vaccine 45 of these being associated with the H1N1 infection. direct from the manufacturers according to their needs. The number of deaths from seasonal flu varies each This system is different from the childhood vaccination year, with over 10,000 deaths from seasonal flu estimated programme where the department procures vaccine in the winter of 2008-09. centrally and distributes it free of charge to the NHS. Some have queried why statistics for the number of We are aware of some reports of flu vaccine supply deaths in pregnant women are not available. The only issues in some areas in England. We are working with reason the Health Protection Agency has not published the NHS at the local level to ensure available supplies the breakdown is to protect those individuals from of surplus vaccine are moved to where they are needed. being personally identifiable, the number of such cases If efforts to source seasonal flu vaccine locally are not being small. successful, the H1N1 monovalent vaccine (Pandemrix) is now available to GPs for patients who are eligible for When influenza is circulating, antiviral medicines the seasonal flu vaccine. can also help clinical at-risk groups who have either been exposed to or have contracted a flu-like illness. I have already agreed for a review of procurement This season we notified clinicians that the use of options of the seasonal flu vaccine to be undertaken, antiviral medicines in these groups was justified, but including central procurement, although no decisions also, as a higher than normal number of patients have yet been made. outside the clinical at-risk groups were becoming seriously As in previous years, and on the basis of procedures ill with flu, general practitioners (and other prescribers) that have existed for decades, the Government take were recommended to exercise their clinical discretion expert advice from the Joint Committee on Vaccination so that any patient who they feel is at serious risk of and Immunisation (JCVI). This year, as last year, the developing complications from influenza may receive JCVI advised that those aged 65 and over, and those in antiviral treatments on the NHS. In response, demand clinical at-risk groups, should be vaccinated. Because for these medicines continued to rise. of the specific characteristic of the H1N1 virus, the We have taken prompt action to ensure that all JCVI also advised for the first time that healthy, patients have access to appropriate antiviral medicines pregnant women should be vaccinated with seasonal when they need them, and there is no shortage of flu vaccine. The JCVI has recently assured me that this antiviral medicines in the country. advice is appropriate for this year’s flu season. There is always more pressure on the NHS during As in previous years, only certain groups are being the winter, but the NHS is well-prepared and is coping targeted for vaccination. We have therefore focused well. In summary, we are taking the following action: our efforts on ensuring that these groups are vaccinated. Current information for vaccinations given up to 2 January the first line of defence against flu is vaccination, 2011 shows that 70.0 per cent of over 65s have been and we want to see vaccination rates increase still vaccinated and 45.4 per cent of those in clinical at-risk further. That is why we are currently working with groups have been vaccinated, which is broadly in line the BMA and the RCGP to ensure everyone in an with previous years. at risk group who has not been vaccinated contacts their GP and books an appointment; The latest data indicate that the rate of GP consultations for influenza-like illness (ILI) is currently the second line of defence is to practise good 98 per 100,000 people but we need to be cautious respiratory and hand hygiene. That is why we about interpreting the data due to the holiday period. reinstated the Catch it, Bin it, Kill it campaign. In The highest recorded level this year was 124 per 100,000, addition, and in advance of the new school term, WS 191 Written Statements[LORDS] Written Statements WS 192

we are encouraging parents to educate their Royal Cornwall Hospitals Trust (RCHT), in particular, children to use good hand and respiratory hygiene; to the dismissal of John Watkinson and, by association, and the trust’s position in relation to the provision of the third line of defence is a well prepared NHS upper gastro-intestinal services in Cornwall. with the ability to treat those who do need help. Verita, a specialist company that conducts independent That is why we are working with local NHS investigations, reviews and inquiries, carried out the organisation to help them escalate critical care capacity review. The report was published on the Department where necessary, and have increased the number of of Health website on Tuesday 4 January 2011. ECMO beds available for patients. In the Written Ministerial Statement of 17 June 2010 We are making available a range of winter performance I committed to updating the House on the findings of information publicly available. This is published on the report and my response. The key findings of the the Winterwatch section of the department’s website report were that: at: http://winterwatch.dh.gov.uk/. the strategic health authority put appropriate pressure on the RCHT board to suspend John International Development Watkinson but was not involved in the decision to Statement dismiss him; the strategic health authority was justifiably concerned Baroness Verma: My right honourable friend the about many aspects of the RCHT’s performance in Secretary of State for International Development has the period leading up to the RCHT board’s dismissal made the following Statement. of John Watkinson; My department has finalised two Frameworks for Results, which set out the UK Government’s contribution the RCHT chair and non-executive directors were towards improving reproductive, maternal and newborn relatively inexperienced within the NHS and it was health outcomes and malaria outcomes in the developing good practice for them to take advice from the world. more experienced strategic health authority before deciding what to do; and “Choices for women: Planned pregnancies, safe births and healthy newborns – the UK’s Framework NHS South West is considered to have acted for Results for improving reproductive, maternal appropriately, given its performance management and newborn health in the developing world”; and responsibilities for NHS organisations in the “Breaking the Cycle: Saving Lives and Protecting south-west and the fact that the RCHT was not a the Future—the UK’s Framework for Results for foundation trust. Malaria in the Developing World”. The report has been placed in the Library. Copies Both Frameworks for Results are available on the are available to honourable Members from the Vote department’s website (www.dfid.gov.uk). I will arrange Office and to noble Lords from the Printed Paper for copies of both of the frameworks to be placed in Office. the Libraries of both Houses. Ireland: Financial Assistance Public Disorder: Royal Car Statement Statement

The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Neville- Sassoon): My honourable friend the Financial Secretary Jones): My right honourable friend the Secretary of to the Treasury (Mark Hoban) has today made the State for the Home Department has today made the following Written Ministerial Statement. following Written Ministerial Statement. I have today placed in the Libraries of both Houses On 13 December 2010, I made a Statement to copies of the agreement providing a credit facility to Parliament about the acts of serious public disorder in Ireland of £3,226,960,000. This agreement was negotiated central London on 9 December and how these had between HM Treasury and Ireland and signed on the been policed. In that Statement I referred to the appalling 22 December following enactment of the Loans to attack on the car carrying their Royal Highnesses the Ireland Act, which received Royal Assent on 21 December Prince of Wales and the Duchess of Cornwall. I 2010. informed the House that the Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police had ordered a review of the policing NHS: South West arrangements in place on that evening, which would Statement report by 17 December 2010 but warned that, for security reasons, the public details of the review might The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, be limited. Department of Health (Earl Howe): My right honourable The review was completed on 17 December and I friend the Secretary of State for Health (Andrew have considered its content and recommendations in Lansley) has made the following Written Ministerial consultation with senior officers of the Metropolitan Statement. Police. Although it is not possible to disclose the On 17 June 2010 I asked Sir David Nicholson, details for reasons of security, the overarching Chief Executive of the NHS in England, to initiate a recommendations relate to operational planning and review into the approach and behaviour of NHS South the co-ordination of personal protection and public West (the strategic health authority) in relation to order policing. A number of recommended changes WS 193 Written Statements[10 JANUARY 2011] Written Statements WS 194 were put in place immediately and are already proving many years. Such protection always has to take into to be effective, and the Metropolitan Police is continuing account the Royal Family’s desire to be seen by and to to work with the Home Office and Royal Household be close to the public. to implement the remainder of the recommendations. The most significant area of learning from the incident of 9 December is the need to look beyond the While important lessons have been learnt from this available intelligence to take a broader view of threats shocking incident, the findings and recommendations that can reasonably be anticipated in the circumstances, must be seen in the context of the provision of protection and to adapt plans accordingly. I am confident that for the Royal Family that has an enviable record over this will be firmly embedded in future arrangements.

WA 361 Written Answers[10 JANUARY 2011] Written Answers WA 362

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department Written Answers of Health (Earl Howe): Possible measures to assess the success of the alcohol part of the responsibility deal Monday 10 January 2011 are currently under discussion. More widely, a consultation on the public health Afghanistan outcomes framework, Healthy Lives, Healthy People: Transparency in Outcomes, was published by the Question department on 20 December. The consultation proposes Asked by Lord Dykes to put in place a new strategic outcomes framework for public health at national and local levels, based on To ask Her Majesty’s Government what progress the evidence of where the biggest challenges are for they have made on reaching a peace agreement in health and well-being, and the wider factors that Afghanistan through direct and indirect talks with drive it. Taliban representatives. [HL5198] We are seeking views on the overall structure and scope of the framework and the range of outcomes The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth and measures within it, including views on those measures Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): An Afghan-led that should be incentivised. political process is necessary to underpin the military A copy of the consultation document can be obtained progress being made by the International Security from the following web address: www.dh.gov.uk/en/ Assistance Force and the Afghan National Security Consultations/Liveconsultations/DH_122962. Forces. This year the Afghan Government convened a Peace Jirga to secure the support of the Afghan people for their proposals and inaugurated the High Peace Council to lead the work. Anti-Semitism We support President Karzai’s efforts to reconcile Question with all those willing to meet the conditions he has laid down: renounce Al-Qaeda; give up armed struggle; Asked by Lord Beecham and respect the Afghan constitutional framework. The To ask Her Majesty’s Government what UK is working in support of President Karzai’s approach. representations they have made to university authorities concerning invitations to speak to universities or Agriculture: Theft student union or society audiences to speakers with a history of promoting anti-Semitism; and what Question steps they will take to protect Jewish and other Asked by Lord Roberts of Llandudno students from anti-Semitic, Islamophobic or other racist behaviour on campus. [HL5420] To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their strategy for reducing farm thefts and the export of stolen farm goods, particularly all-terrain vehicles. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, [HL5118] Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Henley): I will write to the noble Lord and a copy of my letter will be placed in the Library of the The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Neville- House. Jones): The Government have made clear that police forces should work with their local communities to identify and tackle the crime problems in their area, including the thefts of property from farms, and we Armed Forces: Education are seeking to ensure that they are free to do so and Question accountable to their communities. The Government are also very supportive of the work of the Plant and Asked by Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay Agricultural Intelligence Unit (PANIU), a specialist unit which brings together the police and private sector To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many partners from the construction, agricultural and insurance children of members of the armed forces receiving industries to tackle plant and machinery theft, including financial assistance through the continuity of education all-terrain vehicles. allowance scheme were pupils at (a) Eton, (b) Winchester, (c) Westminster, (d) Charterhouse, (e) St Paul’s, (f) Merchant Taylors’, (g) Harrow, (h) Rugby, and Alcohol (i) Shrewsbury. [HL5163] Question Asked by Baroness Finlay of Llandaff The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever): I refer my noble To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they friend to the Answer given by my honourable friend will use alcohol-related road accidents and reported the Minister for Defence Personnel, Welfare and Veterans alcohol-related violent incidents as outcome measures in the other place on 27 July 2010, (Official Report, to assess the progress of the Alcohol Responsibility col. 1063W) to the honourable Member for Ashfield Deal. [HL5549] (Gloria De Piero). WA 363 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 364

Azerbaijan Banking Questions Questions Asked by Lord Hylton Asked by Lord Myners To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they have made or will make representations to the will commission the Financial Services Authority government of Azerbaijan in regard to the judgment or the Bank of England to produce a report on the on 22 April by the European Court of Human governance and risk management failures that led Rights in the case of Fatullayev v Azerbaijan; and to the collapse of the Royal Bank of Scotland and whether they have made representations more widely, HBOS. [HL5055] concerning alleged violations of journalistic freedom of expression and the investigation of such cases. [HL5279] The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Sassoon): On 2 December 2010 the Financial Services Authority (FSA) announced that a supervisory investigation into the Royal Bank of Scotland (RBS) The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth had confirmed that RBS made a series of bad decisions Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): UK Government in the years immediately before the financial crisis, Ministers have raised the case with Azerbaijani Ministers most significantly the acquisition of ABN AMRO and senior officials on several occasions. My honourable and the decision aggressively to expand its investment friend the Minister for Europe raised it personally banking business. The issues investigated by the FSA when he visited Baku in October 2010. We continue to did not warrant any enforcement action, either against monitor the case closely and are in regular contact RBS or against individuals. with Amnesty International and other non-governmental The FSA cannot publish the contents of the review, organisations about Mr Fatullayev’s situation. because information gathered for the review remains The UK Government and the EU have raised our confidential under the Financial Services and Markets concern over the slow progress in improving human Act 2000. The FSA has proposed producing a publishable rights, including freedom of expression issues in report on lessons to be learnt both from the decisions Azerbaijan on many occasions. We and our EU partners made by the RBS board and executive and from any have made clear that we are ready to support Azerbaijan failings of the supervisory approach in place at that in improving human rights standards. time. In order to publish such a report, the FSA Asked by Baroness O’Cathain considers that it would need permission from RBS and other individuals to use confidential information To ask Her Majesty’s Government what support, if provided by them in the course of the supervisory any, they intend to offer to the All-Party Parliamentary investigations now concluded, as well as those to Armenian Group on their visit to the Azerbaijani whom the information relates. province of Nagorno-Karabakh. [HL5310] The FSA is conducting extensive supervisory investigations into other major UK banks that required full or partial taxpayer bailout support. These investigations are ongoing. If they lead to enforcement Lord Howell of Guildford: The Foreign and action being taken, then it would be usual for the FSA Commonwealth Office has offered no support to the to make these outcomes public. all-party parliamentary group on its planned visit, but stands ready to provide information, as we would for Asked by Lord Myners all all-party parliamentary groups, if requested. To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether United Information for British citizens wishing to travel abroad Kingdom incorporated banks are likely to pay more is made available through the travel advice pages of per annum under the proposed banking levy, once the Foreign and Commonwealth Office website: working in accordance with the Government’s www.fco.gov.uk/en/travel-and-living-abroad/travel- assessment of the maximum sustainable level, than advice-by-country. The advice currently advises against under the bank payroll tax introduced by the previous all travel to Nagorno-Karabakh and the militarily government. [HL5261] occupied area surrounding it. Asked by Baroness O’Cathain Lord Sassoon: No separate estimates of the yield To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their from the bank levy or the bank payroll tax for United current advice for travellers to the Azerbaijani province Kingdom incorporated bank entities have been made. of Nagorno-Karabakh; and to which authority visa The bank payroll tax applied to certain entities (banks applications should be made. [HL5311] and holding companies) in banking groups operating in the UK as well as to bank companies in non-banking groups operating in the UK. It therefore applied to both UK incorporated banks (in both UK and foreign Lord Howell of Guildford: We currently advise against banking groups) and UK branches of foreign incorporated all travel to Nagorno-Karabakh and the militarily banks. The bank levy is a permanent tax on the occupied area surrounding it. We therefore do not balance sheets of banks and building society and offer travellers advice on visa applications. banking groups, and does not depend upon the location WA 365 Written Answers[10 JANUARY 2011] Written Answers WA 366 of incorporation of banks within those groups. The Ulster Core Loans and Advances bank payroll tax was introduced by the previous to Customers £bn Government and was a one-off measure. Other lending 1.7 Asked by Lord Willoughby de Broke Total 37.8 To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is the (RBS Q3 Interim Management Statement, page 36) financial exposure of British publicly funded banks to Irish banks and Irish mortgage-backed loans. Ulster Donated Assets in Non- Core Division £bn [HL5343] Commercial Investment & 6.7 Lord Sassoon: Royal Bank of Scotland (RBS) published Development its Q2 2010 results on 6 August 2010. This disclosed Residential Investment & 6 that total credit risk assets relating to the Republic of Development Ireland were £48 billion. Other 2.0 Total 14.7 RBS published its Q3 Interim Management Statement on 5 November 2010. Whilst this did not include (RBS Q3 Interim Management Statement, page 55) specific disclosure on exposures to the Republic of Available for sale Debt security Ireland, it did contain disclosures relating to Ulster Exposures to £mn Bank. Ulster Bank trades across the Republic of Ireland The Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland: at full year 2009 the asset split Government 120 was circa 16 per cent UK and 84 per cent Republic of Asset-Backed Securities 180 Ireland. Other 468 Total 768 Ulster Core Loans and Advances (RBS Q3 Interim Management Statement, page 105) to Customers £bn

Mortgages 21.4 Corporate property 5.3 Lloyds Banking Group published its interim results on 5 August 2010. This disclosed its latest exposures in Other corporate 9.4 relation to Ireland:

Impaired loans as % Impairment Loans and advances of closing advances Impairment provisions as % of to customers (£m) Impaired loans (£m) (%) provisions (£m) impaired loans (%)

As at 30 June 2010 26, 682 11, 689 43.8 4, 857 41.6 As at 31 December 29, 104 9, 712 33.4 3, 601 37.1 2009

(2010 interim results, page.85 Credit risk—Wealthand International The revised FSA Code incorporates a rule that (gross basis)—Ireland) guaranteed bonuses, which must be for one year or less, are only available to new staff, and in exceptional On 17 December 2010 Lloyds Banking Group gave circumstances. an update through the Regulatory News Service (RNS) on its Irish portfolio: http://www.lloydsbankinggroup Asked by Lord Myners .com/media/pdfs/investors/2010/2010Dec17_LBG_ Irish_Portfolio_Update.pdf. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the proposals made by the Committee of European Bank Supervisors to restrict Banking: Bonuses the payment of banker bonuses; and whether these proposals go beyond those currently required by Questions HM Treasury and the Financial Services Authority. Asked by Lord Dykes [HL5167] To ask Her Majesty’s Government what support they intend to give to the Committee of European Banking Supervisors to end the granting of guaranteed bonuses to senior bankers. [HL5158] Lord Sassoon: The Committee of European Banking Supervisors (CEBS) is required to provide guidance The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord on the implementation of the provisions of the Capital Sassoon): The Financial Services Authority (FSA) has Requirements Directive 3 (CRD 3). applied the provisions of the Capital Requirements The Financial Services Authority (FSA) has applied Directive 3 on a proportionate basis, taking the Committee the provisions of CRD 3 on a proportionate basis, of European Banking Supervisors’ Guidance, and taking CEBS guidance and consultation responses consultation responses, into account. into account, as permitted in the CRD 3 legislation. WA 367 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 368

Asked by Lord Myners Lord Sassoon: In May 2009, the Financial Services Authority (FSA) launched a supervisory investigation To ask Her Majesty’s Government what action into the Royal Bank of Scotland (RBS) to consider they will take to ensure that the regulations proposed whether regulatory rules had been broken and what, if by the Committee of European Banking Supervisors any, action was appropriate. The review looked specifically for limiting the payment of bonuses at banks are at the conduct of senior individuals at the bank, the restricted to systemically important institutions. acquisition of ABN AMRO in 2007 and the 2008 [HL5315] capital raisings. The FSA conducted the review with assistance from PricewaterhouseCoopers (PwC). Lord Sassoon: The Financial Services Authority As the review considered decisions and activity by (FSA) has applied the provisions of the Capital the board and executive of RBS during the period in Requirements Directive 3 on a proportionate basis, question, no Ministers or officials from HM Treasury taking the Committee of European Banking Supervisors’ and the Department for Business, Innovation and guidance and consultation responses into account as Skills and no directors or officers from the Financial permitted in the Capital Requirements Directive Services Authority were interviewed as part of the legislation. The FSA has established a classification of supervisory investigation. firms to assist in the proportionate application of the Asked by Lord Myners Directive requirements. To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they have any evidence of a failure of directors’ fiduciary governance at the Royal Bank of Scotland ahead of Banking: Royal Bank of Scotland the collapse of that bank. [HL5426] Questions Lord Sassoon: In May 2009, the Financial Services Asked by Lord Dykes Authority (FSA) launched an investigation into the Royal Bank of Scotland (RBS) to consider whether To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they regulatory rules had been broken and what, if any, will accept Lord Turner of Ecchinswell’s suggestion action was appropriate. The review looked specifically that there should be a public report on the collapse at the conduct of senior individuals at the bank, the of the Royal Bank of Scotland. [HL5156] acquisition of ABN AMRO in 2007 and the 2008 capital raisings. The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord On 18 May 2010, the FSA closed the enforcement Sassoon): On 2 December 2010 the Financial Services investigation into Johnny Cameron, former executive Authority (FSA) announced that a supervisory director of RBS and former chairman of global investigation into the Royal Bank of Scotland (RBS) markets. Following the completion of this investigation, had confirmed that RBS made a series of bad decisions Mr Cameron agreed not to hold any senior management in the years immediately before the financial crisis, positions or undertake full-time employment in the most significantly the acquisition of ABN AMRO financial services industry. In return for this undertaking, and the decision aggressively to expand its investment the FSA said that it would not take disciplinary action banking business. The issues investigated by the FSA against Cameron. The FSA had not made any findings did not warrant any enforcement action, either against of regulatory breach against Cameron and he had not RBS or against individuals. made any admissions. On 2 December 2010 the FSA announced that a The FSA cannot publish the contents of the review, supervisory investigation had confirmed that RBS because information gathered for the review remains made a series of bad decisions in the years immediately confidential under the Financial Services and Markets before the financial crisis, most significantly the acquisition Act 2000. The Government welcome the FSA proposal of ABN AMRO and the decision to aggressively expand to produce a publishable report on lessons to be learnt its investment banking business. Had the investigation both from the decisions made by the RBS board and led to enforcement action then it would have been executive and from any failings of the supervisory usual for the FSA to make these outcomes public. approach in place at that time. In order to publish However, the FSA announced that the issues covered such a report, the FSA considers that it would need by the investigation did not warrant any enforcement permission from RBS and other individuals to use action, either against RBS or against individuals. confidential information provided by them in the course of the supervisory investigations now concluded, as well as those to whom the information relates. Banks: Lending Asked by Lord Myners Question To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many Asked by Lord Myners (a) Ministers, and (b) officials, in HM Treasury and To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, the Written Answer by Lord Sassoon on 9 December and (c) Directors, and (d) officers, of the Financial (WA 72), whether they will require Lloyds Banking Services Authority (FSA) were interviewed in the course Group and the Royal Bank of Scotland to enter of the production of the PricewaterhouseCoopers into new lending agreements in Spring 2011; and review for the FSA on the Royal Bank of Scotland. whether a decision on this is conditional on other [HL5425] matters. [HL5313] WA 369 Written Answers[10 JANUARY 2011] Written Answers WA 370

The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Benefits Sassoon): The lending commitments agreed between the Government and Lloyds Banking Group (LBG) Questions and Royal Bank of Scotland (RBS) are in place until Asked by Baroness Sherlock March 2011. The Government recognise that access to finance is To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment essential if businesses are to invest, grow and make an they have made of the cumulative impact of the important contribution to supporting the economic move to uprating housing and welfare benefits in recovery. line with the consumer prices index over the five In response to the Green Paper, Financing a Private years following the introduction of this change in Sector Recovery, published earlier this year, the 2013. [HL5002] Government have set out a comprehensive package of The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord government and industry-led measures to support small Sassoon): The June 2010 Budget announced that the businesses access finance. These measures include: Government will use the CPI for the price indexation additional support for the enterprise finance guarantee of benefits and tax credits from April 2011. This over the next four years to enable over £2 billion of means that benefits will continue to be protected from lending to viable small businesses that lack collateral price inflation each year. The June 2010 Budget also or track record; and announced that the Government will uprate local increased equity finance, through £200 million of housing allowance rates in line with CPI inflation additional funding for the enterprise capital funds from 2013-14. programme, both of which could unlock further The fiscal impact of these measures is set out in debt finance for small and medium-sized businesses. Table 2.1 in the Budget Red Book. The impact of tax More information about these measures and the and welfare changes on households is set out in Green Paper is available at http://www.bis.gov.uk/ Chapter A of the Red Book. It is essential that businessfinance. government policy is informed by analysis that is In addition, the British Bankers’ Association (BBA) known to be robust, and the Treasury has followed a taskforce has announced industry-led measures, including well established methodology, similar to that used by improving customer relationships through a new lending other organisations to undertake its distributional code and the establishment of new £1.5 billion business analysis. On the basis of this approach, the Treasury growth fund, which will provide capital to growing was able to model around two-thirds of benefit and businesses. tax-credit changes and the majority of direct and Further information about the BBA taskforce and indirect tax changes in the Budget analysis, including its commitments is available at http://www.bba.org.uk/ CPI indexation of benefits and tax credits. The data media/article/business-finance-taskforce. sources document published alongside the Budget sets out the full list of measures that this includes. Belize Separately, the Department for Work and Pensions will publish an impact assessment for the CPI Question indexation of local housing allowance rates when Asked by Baroness Harris of Richmond relevant legislation is brought forward. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what Asked by Lord Wills representations they have made to the Government To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment of Belize about the recapture of Allan Cal, who they have made of the time taken to process claims was convicted of the murder of Anna Lightfoot, a for Income Support. [HL5476] British Raleigh volunteer. [HL5293] The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Department for Work and Pensions (Lord Freud): Income Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): I was very sorry to support claim clearance is monitored using an average learn of Anna’s death and would like to extend my actual clearance time target. This measures the average sincere condolences to the Lightfoot family. number of working days Jobcentre Plus takes to process Our high commission in Belize maintains contact claims for income support. with both the Ministry of Police and Public Safety The measure starts on the date that the claim form and Crimestoppers Belize on their efforts to locate satisfies the evidence contribution (ie all information and recapture Allan Cal. The deputy high commissioner or evidence required, eg savings, has been provided) in Belize spoke to the head of Crimestoppers Belize on and ends when a notification is issued to the customer 26 November, and was told that any leads were being advising of the outcome of the claim, or the claim is followed up. We will continue to press the relevant withdrawn. authorities and organisations to do all they can to find The target is to process claims for income support Allan Cal. We will keep the family informed of any in an average of nine days. The current year to date developments. performance is 7.1 days.

April 10 May 10 June 10 July 10 Aug 10 Sept 10 Oct 10 Nov 10 YTD Income Support AACT 7.8 7.3 6.9 7.0 7.1 6.9 7.0 6.9 7.1 WA 371 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 372

Asked by Lord Wills Lord Freud: Income support claim clearance is monitored using an average actual clearance time (AACT) target. This target is nine days, and performance has remained strong throughout the year. To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the Within the last six months performance has remained time taken to process Income Support has increased consistent with no indication of an increase in clearance over the last six months. [HL5477] times.

April 10 May 10 June 10 July 10 Aug 10 Sept 10 Oct 10 Nov 10 YTD Income Support AACT 7.8 7.3 6.9 7.0 7.1 6.9 7.0 6.9 7.1

Asked by Lord Wills on 13 December (WA 139–40), what limits are placed on each British Overseas Territory for the To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they nomination of honours. [HL5407] expect the time taken to process Income Support to increase in 2011. [HL5478] Lord Howell of Guildford: Under the UK honours rules there are no limits within which each British Lord Freud: There is no reason to think that the Overseas Territory can propose nominations for UK time taken to process income support claims will honours. Nominations are proposed for exceptional decline in 2011. meritorious service. There are quotas for the numbers Forecasts based on recent performance and known of awards for each Overseas Territory and these are trends show that if current performance is maintained reviewed every five years. Nominations may be sent in then AACT will be within the range of 6.7—9.1 days at any time but are usually submitted at twice yearly at April 2011. stages for the Diplomatic Service and Overseas (DS&O) The time taken to clear all benefit claims is monitored New Year and Birthday Honours Lists. very closely and remedial action is taken promptly when potential problems occur to help maintain the service provided to our customers. Burial Act 1857 Question British Overseas Territories Asked by Lord Renfrew of Kaimsthorn Question To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they Asked by Lord Jones of Cheltenham will amend the Burial Act 1857 to ensure that significant prehistorical or ancient human remains To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they can lawfully be conserved and curated in perpetuity intend to assist Overseas Territories in marketing in appropriate museums or designated institutions their tourism attractions, financial services and other for the purpose of scientific study and research. products to the rest of the world; and what mechanisms [HL5513] exist for British Overseas Territories to make suggestions on the marketing assistance they need to improve their economic viability. [HL5364] The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally): We are currently considering whether it may be possible to take forward changes to burial The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth legislation generally, including the Burial Act 1857 Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): The Government which regulates the exhumation of human remains. In recognise the importance of economic development in the mean time, we continue to apply the present the Overseas Territories, but economic affairs are a exhumation licensing system in a way which recognises, devolved competence. There are however regular as far as possible, the legitimate interests of archaeologists, discussions between UK government officials and museum professionals, and the general public. representatives from the territories on economic issues. These were one of the topics discussed at the annual Overseas Territories Consultative Council in November, chaired by my honourable friend the Minister for the Business Travel: Private Car Allowance Overseas Territories; and at bilateral meetings he held Question with territory leaders during the week of the Consultative Asked by Lord Marlesford Council. Overseas Territory government representatives in London lead on promoting Overseas Territories’ To ask Her Majesty’s Government on what date products and services. We will continue to liaise with the HM Revenue and Customs maximum rate for them on a regular basis. tax allowance for business use of private vehicles Asked by Lord Ashcroft was fixed at 40p per mile; on what basis this was calculated; and what the present figure would be (a) To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to on the same basis as the original calculation, and the Written Answer by Lord Howell of Guildford (b) adjusting for the retail prices index. [HL5105] WA 373 Written Answers[10 JANUARY 2011] Written Answers WA 374

The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord They can be made to enable people to purchase for Sassoon): The tax-free mileage allowance is part of the themselves a short stay in residential care, provided Approved Mileage Allowance Payments (AMAPs) that the stay does not exceed a period of four consecutive scheme, which is a statutory scheme introduced with weeks in any 12-month period. They may also be used effect from April 2002 at a rate of 40 pence per mile for by people living in a care home in relation to non- the first 10,000 miles and 25 pence per mile thereafter. residential care services; for example, they may have AMAPs cater for a wide range of car drivers and temporary access to direct payments to try out the rates are designed to take into account all relevant independent living arrangements. factors. The levels strike a balance between allowing for the running costs of all cars, large and small, and delivering the Government’s environmental policy, but Contingent Liabilities are not linked to any particular inflation measure. The Question Government keep rates under regular review. Asked by Lord Ashcroft To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to Care Homes the Written Answer by Lord Howell of Guildford Question on 14 December (WA 175), whether they will place in the Library of the House any legal or accounting Asked by Baroness Browning advice they have received on the definition of a “contingent liability”. [HL5414] To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many adults under the age of 60 have permanent placements in care homes. [HL5521] The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): Accounting advice on contingent liabilities for the whole UK Government The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, are provided by HM Treasury’s Government Financial Department of Health (Earl Howe): Data on the number Reporting Manual; these are the rules departments of adults, aged 18-64, in receipt of permanent local must follow in notifying contingent liabilities to authority funded registered residential and nursing Parliament. Specific commentary and advice on the care as at 31 March each year are collected and UK’s contingent liabilities relating to the overseas published by the NHS information centre for health territories is available from the 2007 National Audit and social care. Information is not available separately Office report Managing Risk in the Overseas Territories. for those under the age of 60. Both are already publicly available. I am informed by the information centre that there were 46,300 adults aged 18-64 in permanent local authority funded care home placement on 31 March Criminality Survey 2000 2010. Question Information on the numbers of care home residents who fund their own care is not collected centrally. Asked by Baroness Stern To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they will place in the Library of the House a copy of the Care Homes: Allowances Criminality Survey 2000. [HL5460] Question Asked by Baroness Browning The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Neville- Jones): The report Levels of Self-Report Offending and To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many Drug Use among Offenders: Findings from the Criminality adults currently residing in care homes are in receipt Surveys is available on the Home Office website at of personal budgets. [HL5520] www.rds.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs05/ rdsolr1805.pdf. I will place a copy in the Library. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Earl Howe): This information Crown Prosecution Service: Equality is not held centrally as it is government policy to reduce burden on local councils and primary care Question trusts which would be the bodies responsible for collecting Asked by Lord Stoddart of Swindon these data. A personal budget can be taken by an individual as To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the a direct (cash) payment; as an account held and managed Crown Prosecution Service is taking action to reduce by the council in line with the individual’s wishes; or the predominance of women employees in the service, as an account placed with a third party (provider) and who outnumber men by a factor of three to one. called off by the individual; or as a mixture of these [HL5450] approaches. Direct payments are intended to support independent living and, as such, they cannot be used The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Wallace to pay for adults to live for the long term in residential of Tankerness): The Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) care. is committed to achieving equality of opportunity for WA 375 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 376 all of the staff that it employs. It does not operate a groups in the eastern Democratic Republic of the quota system for employees and does not plan to Congo are forcibly recruiting and training for conflict introduce one. young men and boys to expand their ranks, and As of 30 September 2010, the CPS employed 2,846 (b) how this forcible recruitment would affect the men and 5,623 women. The CPS is reducing its workforce current peace process in eastern Democratic Republic through the application of recruitment controls and of Congo. [HL5481] will conduct an equality impact assessment on any future plans to facilitate further workforce reductions. The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): The UK is deeply Cumbria: Earthquake concerned by the use of child soldiers in eastern Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) and is actively Question working to tackle this issue. Following a UK recommendation, UN sanctions have been imposed Asked by Lord Judd against Lt Col Innocent Zimurinda of the Forces To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their Armees de la Republique Dernocratique du Congo assessment of the geological significance of the (FARDC) for recruitment of child soldiers. We continue earthquake in Cumbria on 21 December and of its to lobby the Government of DRC to arrest Bosco implications for the future site of a new nuclear Ntaganda and hand him over to the International power station and a nuclear waste storage facility in Criminal Court. We support the biometric census West Cumbria. [HL5536] project of EU’s Security Sector Reform Mission to DRC (EUSEC),which allows child soldiers in the FARDC to be successfully identified and removed. We also The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, support the work of the United Nations Mission in Department of Energy and Climate Change (Lord the Democratic Republic of Congo (MONUSCO) to Marland): The Nuclear Installations Inspectorate has demobilise child soldiers in armed groups. advised that in order to satisfy the regulators that site licence conditions will be met, the site licensees of any On the situation in eastern DRC, there has been new nuclear power station will need to demonstrate significant recent progress in weakening the Democratic that the installed plant is able to withstand all site-specific Forces for the Liberation of Rwanda (FDLR) and natural hazards including earthquake, flooding or other armed groups, but high levels of violence against meteorological conditions. In order to ascertain the civilians continue. Addressing the issue of child soldiers presence and status of any capable faults on a site, will help reduce that violence. there would need to be geological site-specific investigations. Seismic activity levels across the UK are generally Disabled People: Access to Work low. The reactor designs for new nuclear power stations Question being considered under the generic design assessment process are intended for worldwide application, with Asked by The Lord Bishop of Blackburn significantly higher baseline seismic resistance. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what guidance Similarly, in siting a geological disposal facility has been given to JobcentrePlus regional offices on (GDF) for higher activity radioactive waste a thorough (a) the administration of Access to Work funding seismic hazard assessment is one of the requirements for disabled employees since new regulations come of the regulators’ safety assessment principles. into force in April this year, (b) the calculation of Vibrations associated with earthquakes experienced the employer’s contribution in relation to the overall in the UK will not significantly affect a repository at size of the organisation, and (c) the classification of depth, but any potential for changes to the rock mass individual Church of England dioceses for the purposes containing a GDF must be thoroughly investigated. of calculating employer contributions. [HL5067] This can only be properly undertaken later in the siting process when more in-depth investigations can take place at a particular site. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Lord Freud): The Currently, local authorities in west Cumbria are Government are committed to ensuring disabled people considering whether or not they want to participate in get and keep jobs, and Access to Work can help with the siting process for a GDF and if they do, a detailed this objective. It is the legal responsibility of employers assessment of the seismic hazard at any potential site under the Equality Act to provide reasonable adjustments will need to be carried out over many years. to allow disabled staff to do their work. The Access to Work programme can provide funding towards equipment Democratic Republic of Congo and support that would be above and beyond what is reasonable for an employer to supply. Question Changes to the Access to Work programme were Asked by Lord Chidgey put in place on 1 April 2010 to improve take-up among under-represented groups, including people To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their working for smaller employers. As a result, where assessment of (a) the recent Human Rights Watch employer contributions are required larger employers report that Congolese army officers and armed have been asked to contribute more, allowing smaller WA 377 Written Answers[10 JANUARY 2011] Written Answers WA 378 employers to pay less and micro-employers, with fewer Lord Freud: The Independent Living Fund will than 10 employees, to be exempt from any contributions continue to administer existing awards throughout at all. this Parliament. We will publish an equality impact Where cost-sharing applies, all requests for adaptations assessment with the consultation. to premises and equipment, special aids and equipment The Independent Living Fund is a discretionary or miscellaneous (except travel in work) elements will trust and payments from the fund do not take precedence operate as follows: over the responsibility of the local authority to make A threshold below which AtW pays none of the an assessment of a user’s needs. Local authorities costs; already have a statutory responsibility to provide social care support to their residents and as part of this a £10,000 ceiling below which AtW pays up to 80 responsibility, local authorities will need to consider per cent of the approved costs and above which the requirements of clients who may otherwise have AtW pays all the costs over the three-year AtW received an additional Independent Living Fund package. period; Micro employers (1-9 employees) nil cost share; Small employers (10-49 employees) £300 threshold; Economy Medium-sized employers (50-249 employees) £500 Question threshold; Asked by Lord Myners Large employers (250 employees or more) £1,000 threshold. To ask Her Majesty’s Government under whose In this context the Church of England is considered instructions the Cabinet Secretary produced a paper to be a larger employer, with more than 250 employees. on possible policy responses to a stalling in economic recovery (referred to as “Plan B”); and which Ministers received this report. [HL5424] Disabled People: Independent Living Lord Taylor of Holbeach: The Cabinet Secretary Questions regularly provides advice to Ministers across government Asked by Baroness Wilkins on a wide range of policy issues, including the economy. To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to the Written Ministerial Statement by Lord Freud Egypt on 13 December (WS 62) regarding the Independent Questions Living Fund, which disability organisations they have informally consulted; whether they will place Asked by Lord Patten in the Library of the House a copy of each To ask Her Majesty’s Government when they representation received; and, what representations last made representations to the Government of the Department of Health has made in the discussions. Egypt over the religious freedoms of Coptic [HL5286] Christians. [HL5457]

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Department for Work and Pensions (Lord Freud): A Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): The Government number of organisations were approached informally consider human rights, including the right to freedom including: National Council for Independent Living, of religion, as indivisible from our foreign policy Independent Living in Scotland, National Forum, objectives. The Coptic Church has a proud history of Equality 2025 and Equality & Human Rights. No continuous worship in Egypt for almost 2,000 years. written representations were received and there is no Together with our European partners, we raise with published document. The information obtained was the Egyptian Government concerns about discrimination part of the policy development process to inform between people on grounds of religion. For example, Ministers. at the UN Human Rights Council’s Universal Periodic Any formal consultation on the Independent Living Review of Egypt in June 2010, we called for the Fund that takes place in the future will be published in elimination of all legal provisions and policies which the usual way. discriminate against members of religious minorities. Our ambassador spoke to officials at the Egyptian Asked by Baroness Wilkins Ministry of Foreign Affairs on 4 January 2011, following To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment an explosion, believed to be a suicide bomb, outside a they have made of the impact of the closure of the Coptic Church in Alexandria on New Year’s Day. Independent Living Fund on equality for disabled Asked by Lord Patten people who (1) currently receive money from the fund, and (2) will not be able to claim funding from To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the fund when they might have been previously they had observers present during the Egyptian eligible; and whether they have taken or are taking parliamentary elections on 28 November and steps to ensure that any negative impact is mitigated. 5 December; and, if so, whether they regarded the [HL5288] elections as having been free and fair. [HL5458] WA 379 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 380

Lord Howell of Guildford: Our embassy in Cairo both of the cases at centre 0076 were graded as severe posted teams in Alexandria, Cairo and Minya (Upper and all of the cases at centre 0170 were graded as Egypt) to observe the elections informally, along with moderate. other countries including EU member states. Their findings were similar to those reported by domestic observers, civil society organisations and election Energy: Carbon Reduction Commitment participants, who raised serious concerns about arrangements in the run-up to and during the elections. Question These included refusal of access for international monitors, Asked by Lord Berkeley lack of access in some instances for independent national monitors and candidate representatives to key parts of To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to the voting and counting process and reports of attempts the Written Answer by Lord Marland on 8 December to limit media comment on the elections. In some (WA 55), in light of the fact that Northern Ireland cases, reported voting irregularities and the harassment government departments will participate fully in and arrest of opposition candidates and their supporters the carbon reduction commitment (CRC), whether amounted to serious interference in the electoral process. they will allow tenants of private landlords to This calls into question the credibility of some of the participate in the CRC scheme; whether a Northern results. We strongly encourage the Egyptian authorities Ireland government department which leases an to address those concerns. office from a private landlord will be exempt from the CRC scheme; and whether they will be permitted Asked by Lord Alton of Liverpool to be included in the scheme to show public To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their leadership. [HL5410] assessment of (a) the recent violent attacks on Egyptian Copts at Naga Hammadi and Omraneya; Baroness Rawlings: We are proposing to only disapply and (b) the general treatment of the Coptic the landlord/tenant rule in the specific respect of supplies population. [HL5517] made from one Northern Ireland government department to another. Where a Northern Ireland government Lord Howell of Guildford: We remain concerned by department leases an office from a private landlord, reports of violence involving different religious who supplies its tenants with the energy, then that communities in Egypt, of which the violence in Naga private landlord will still be responsible for the energy Hammadi is one example. We continue to follow the under the CRC energy efficiency scheme. trial of two men accused of involvement in the attack. Together with our European partners, we also raise with the Egyptian Government concerns about Energy: Electricity discrimination on grounds of religion. For example, at the UN Human Rights Council’s Universal Periodic Question Review of Egypt in June 2010, we called for the Asked by Lord Lucas elimination of all legal provisions and policies which discriminate against members of religious minorities. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what forecasts they have made of (a) baseload electricity prices, and (b) consumer electricity prices, now and in Embryology 2030, taking into account grid costs, capacity payments for wind and solar energy back-up, and renewable Question subsidies. [HL5440] Asked by Lord Alton of Liverpool To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, incidents of ovarian hyperstimulation syndrome Department of Energy and Climate Change (Lord (OHSS) which resulted in the patient being hospitalised Marland): On 16 December, the Government launched have been reported to the Human Fertilisation consultations on a package of options for reforming and Embryology Authority (HFEA) since 1999 by the electricity market. The preferred package is to centres 076, 162 and 170; and how many incidents have a contract for difference model for supporting of OHSS have been reported to the HFEA since low-carbon generation in combination with a targeted 1999 in which any of those licensed clinics became capacity mechanism, carbon price support and an aware of OHSS that was less severe. [HL5438] emissions performance standard. For this preferred package: The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, (a) the average wholesale electricity price is Department of Health (Earl Howe): The Human assumed to be £57/MWh in 2010 and £97/MWh in Fertilisation and Embryology Authority (HFEA) has 2030 (in real 2009 prices). The increase reflects a advised that, under its adverse incident reporting number of factors including policy impacts and requirements, centre 0076 has reported two cases of external factors such as rising fossil fuel and ovarian hyperstimulation syndrome (OHSS). Under carbon prices; and the same requirements, centre 0162 has reported no (b) the average domestic retail electricity price cases of OHSS and centre 0170 has reported five (including VAT) is estimated to be £118/MWh in cases. All of these cases involved admission to hospital, 2010 and £178/MWh in 2030 (in real 2009 prices). WA 381 Written Answers[10 JANUARY 2011] Written Answers WA 382

For non-domestic consumers, the average retail less than the full face value of the debt, as a result of electricity price is estimated to be £86/MWh in an agreement with a debtor that is unable to pay the 2010 and £143/MWh in 2030 (in real 2009 prices). full amount. As set out in the impact assessment accompanying the consultation, the percentage increase in electricity bills for domestic and non-domestic consumers, between EU: Scrutiny Reserve now and 2030, will be lower than the increase in Question electricity prices due to the impact of energy efficiency policies over time. Asked by Lord Roper To ask Her Majesty’s Government, for each EU: Accession Fund department, in January to June 2010 (a) on how Question many occasions the scrutiny reserve resolution in Asked by Lord Stoddart of Swindon the House of Lords was overridden, (b) on how many occasions the scrutiny reserve resolution in To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the the House of Commons was overridden, and (c) in European Union has an accession fund; and, if so, respect of how many documents an override occurred how much money (in pounds) is in the fund. in both Houses or either House. [HL5263] [HL5449] The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): The Instrument Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): The Government for Pre-Accession Assistance (IPA) is the European are committed to the effective scrutiny by Parliament Union funding mechanism for candidate countries of European Union proposals. We will always seek to and potential candidate countries. According to the avoid breaching the scrutiny reserve resolutions of latest “Communication from the Commission to the either House of Parliament where this is possible. European Parliament and the Council: Instrument for Where overrides are required the Government will pre-accession assistance (IPA): Revised multi-annual continue to account for their actions in writing to the indicative financial framework for 2011-13”, the EU chairmen of the scrutiny committees in each House. plans to allocate a total of ¤1,591,328,130 in 2010 and There were a high number of overrides during the ¤1,796,793,000 in 2011. This is equivalent to period in question. No parliamentary scrutiny was £1,352,825,070 in 2010 and £1,527,495,536 in 2011 possible following the dissolution of Parliament in using an exchange rate of 1.1763. April until the scrutiny committees were re-established in the new Parliament. The figures are below: EU: Currencies (c) No. of Question (a) House (b) House Overrides (d) Total of Lords of Commons in both no. of Asked by Lord Pearson of Rannoch Department override override Houses overrides

To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to Department 1001 the Written Answer by Lord Howell of Guildford of Business, on 30 November (WA 432), what assessment they Innovation have made of the costs to the United Kingdom of and Skills returning the countries listed to their national Department 1111 of Communities currencies, given the United Kingdom’s contributions and Local to the International Monetary Fund and European Government Union financial assistance. [HL5099] Department 1111 of Culture, The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Media and Sassoon): This is not a matter on which the Government Sport should comment. Other European Union member Department 2222 states’ currencies and membership or otherwise of the of Environment, Food and euro area are decisions for their respective Governments Rural and not the UK. Affairs Department 7337 EU: Financial Stability for International Development Question Department 1111 Asked by Lord Lea of Crondall of Transport Department 1001 To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is the of Work meaning of the word “haircut”, as referred to in and Pensions Annex II of the conclusion of the European Council Foreign 22 26 22 26 on 17 December. [HL5487] and Commonwealth The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Office Sassoon): In this context, “haircut” means the loss Department 6767 of Health that a debt investor would incur by agreeing to receive WA 383 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 384

The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth (c) No. of (a) House (b) House Overrides (d) Total Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): The Government of Lords of Commons in both no. of have agreed that there should be no further transfer of Department override override Houses overrides competence or powers from the UK to the EU over the course of this Parliament. Any change to the EU HM Treasury 9 7 7 9 treaties requires the unanimous agreement of every Ministry of 3434 Justice member state, and we are legislating to ensure that the 54 52 46 60 British people will have the final say on any future proposed transfer of competences or powers to the EU.

EU: Stability Fund Falkland Islands Question Question Asked by Lord Willoughby de Broke Asked by Lord Berkeley To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many loan to the European Union Stability Fund agreed tonnes of building aggregates have been shipped by on 6 May required ratification by Parliament. the Ministry of Defence to the Falkland Islands in [HL5345] each of the last five years. [HL5574]

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever): In 2010 approximately Sassoon): The European Financial Stability Mechanism 8,000 tonnes, and in 2009 approximately 21,000 tonnes (EFSM) was created following agreement by a qualified of aggregates and building materials (sand and cement) majority of member states at the ECOFIN meeting on were shipped to the Falkland Islands via the Falkland 9 May 2010. The Regulation was binding on all member Islands Resupply Service to renew the runway.Information states the day after its publication in the Official is not held for previous years. Journal of the European Union on 12 May 2010. Financial Services Authority European Financial Stability Mechanism Questions Question Asked by Lord Myners Asked by Lord Stoddart of Swindon To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many people work for the Financial Services Authority; To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the and what is the target number of employees. then Leader of the Opposition was consulted by [HL5257] the then Chancellor of the Exchequer before reaching an agreement on 10 May to join the European The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Financial Stability Mechanism; and whether the Sassoon): The Financial Services Authority (FSA) agreement is capable of being abrogated. [HL4409] remains confident that it can continue to staff the FSA effectively at its projected headcount of 4,000 full-time equivalents. The intention is to cap the FSA’s The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord headcount at this level until the transition to the new Sassoon): All contact between the Treasury and the regulatory authorities (the Prudential Regulatory opposition parties followed the agreed Cabinet Office Authority and the Consumer Protection and Markets guidelines for the 2010 general election. Authority) in 2012. The current headcount is 3,854 The European Financial Stability Mechanism (EFSM) full-time equivalent staff, as at end of November 2010. was created following agreement by a qualified majority Asked by of member states at the ECOFIN meeting on 9 May Lord Myners 2010. The Regulation was binding on all member To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many states the day after its publication in the Official Skilled Persons (Section 166) Reports the Financial Journal of the European Union on 12 May 2010. Services Authority has commissioned in each of the calendar years from 2000 to 2009 inclusive and for the first eleven months of 2010; how much was European Union charged in aggregate by the producers of those reports for each year and the first eleven months of Question 2010; and what percentage of each aggregate annual Asked by Lord Stoddart of Swindon fee was paid to the “big four” accounting firms. [HL5427] To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their assessment of the statement by the German Finance Lord Sassoon: The information requested falls within Minister, reported in the newspaper Bild am Sonntag the responsibility of the Financial Services Authority on 12 December, that in ten years the structure of (FSA), which is independent from government. The the European Union “will resemble far more what noble Lord’s inquiry has been passed to the FSA, one describes as a political union”. [HL5240] which will write directly to him on this subject. WA 385 Written Answers[10 JANUARY 2011] Written Answers WA 386

Flooding United Kingdom in March 2011 to gather evidence for its third opinion on the UK. It has not yet advised Question us of its timetable for producing that opinion. Asked by Lord Taylor of Warwick To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their Fuel Poverty assessment of the impact of the cuts to the United Question Kingdom’s flood defence budget on the poorest communities. [HL5544] Asked by Lord Reay To ask Her Majesty’s Government what proportion The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, of households classified as living in conditions of Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs fuel poverty in England, Scotland and Wales are in (Lord Henley): Those areas most at risk, and people in rural areas. [HL5568] the most deprived parts of the country, will continue to be the focus for government flood and coastal The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, erosion risk management support. This is a key Department of Energy and Climate Change (Lord consideration within the current consultation on the Marland): In 2008, the latest year for which this future funding for flood and coastal erosion risk information is available, 25 per cent of all fuel-poor management. households in England were located in rural areas. In Wales in 2008, 51 per cent of all fuel-poor Food: Halal Meat households were located in rural areas. Question In Scotland in 2008, 25 per cent of all fuel-poor households were located in rural areas. In 2009, this Asked by Lord Mawhinney decreased slightly to 23 per cent. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their Figures for England and Wales use the ONS definition estimate of the proportion of (a) beef, (b) pork, and of rural, while the figures for Scotland are based on (c) lamb, in United Kingdom supermarkets that is the Scottish Government’s definition of rural. halal compliant. [HL5497] Gaza The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Questions Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Henley): We do not hold information on the Asked by Baroness Tonge proportion of Halal compliant beef and lamb sold through UK supermarkets. Muslims are not permitted To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment to eat pork and no pork on sale in UK supermarkets they have made of the announcement by the will be Halal compliant. Government of Israel that it will allow limited exports from Gaza of agricultural and textile products, EBLEX, the organisation for beef and lamb levy and what plans they have to monitor the payers in England, has recently published a report on implementation of this process. [HL5225] the Halal meat market. This provides an insight into the preferences, perceptions and motivations of Muslim consumers when buying meat. This report confirms The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth most Muslims buy Halal meat mostly from Halal Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): This is an encouraging butchers and specialist outlets. step. The key will be implementation. As the EU Foreign Affairs Council made clear on 13 December, we encourage swift implementation by Israel and stand Framework Convention for Protection of ready to work with Israel to achieve pre-2007 levels of National Minorities exports in 2011. Exports are essential for the revival of Gaza’s economy. Question Asked by Lord Hylton Asked by Baroness Whitaker To ask Her Majesty’s Government what To ask Her Majesty’s Government when they representations they have made to the Government expect to receive the observations and of Israel about enlarging the fishing limit of three recommendations of the Council of Europe on the miles from shore in Gaza. [HL5334] United Kingdom’s Third Report under the Framework Convention for protection of national minorities. Lord Howell of Guildford: While we have not made [HL5514] any specific representations about Gaza’s fishing limit recently, the Government have made it clear that the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, situation in Gaza is a tragedy and unsustainable. Together Department for Communities and Local Government with the EU and the quartet, we continue to call on (Baroness Hanham): We expect a delegation from the Israel to ease restrictions on access and to enable a Advisory Committee on the Framework Convention return to economic normality—that includes easing for the Protection of National Minorities to visit the restrictions so that Gaza’s fishing industry can flourish. WA 387 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 388

We welcome Israel’s decision to move from a list of parties. We will continue to press the parties on this 120 permitted goods to a list of specific prohibited point and follow the progress of their investigations items. This shows that it is possible to improve access closely. without compromising security. We are also encouraged by the recent decision by the Israeli Government to facilitate exports out of Gaza. We look to Israel to Government Departments: Non-Executive ensure swift implementation and stand ready to work Directors with Israel to ensure a return to pre-summer 2007 Question levels of exports in 2011. Asked by Lord Hylton Asked by Lord Myners To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the the answer by Baroness Verma on 13 December proposed appointment of non-executive directors (Official Report, col. 396), what representations to Departments of State differs in any material they have made to the Government of Israel about respects from the current operation of the Board of permitted exports from Gaza and their quantities Directors of HM Treasury; and what is their assessment of the effectiveness of that board. [HL5486] in 2011. [HL5335] The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Lord Howell of Guildford: Israel’s recent announcement Sassoon): Details of the enhanced role for non-executive on exports was an encouraging step. The key will be directors and the new role of lead non-executive directors implementation. We discuss these issues regularly with are set out on the Cabinet Office website, together the Government of Israel and will continue to do so. with the part they will play in the wider reform of Following the recent announcement the Foreign and departmental boards. Non-executive directors will Commonwealth Office and the Department for regularly assess board performance and will report International Development had positive discussions annually to the Public Administration Select Committee. with the Government of Israel about the type and levels of exports they plan to achieve in 2011. We want to see a return to pre-2007 levels of exports in 2011 Gypsies and Travellers and have made clear that we stand ready, with EU partners, to work with Israel to achieve this. Question Asked by Baroness Tonge Asked by Baroness Whitaker To ask Her Majesty’s Government what action To ask Her Majesty’s Government when they they have taken, following recent calls by human will conclude the impact assessment related to the rights non-governmental organisations, to request revocation of Planning Circular 01/06 (ODPM) the United Nations Security Council to implement Planning for Gypsy and Traveller sites; and when effectively the UN Fact-Finding Mission’s Report they will launch the associated consultation document. on the 2009 Gaza Conflict by assessing measures [HL5515] taken by the Israeli and Palestinian authorities to ensure accountability for serious violations of The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, international law and referring the situation to the Department for Communities and Local Government International Criminal Court under Chapter VII of (Baroness Hanham): We will be holding a full public the UN Charter. [HL5467] consultation on our intention to withdraw Circular 01/2006 (Planning for Gypsy and Traveller Caravan Lord Howell of Guildford: The Human Rights Council Sites) and replace it with a short, light-touch policy (HRC) Fact Finding Mission on Gaza Report (Goldstone later in the new year. Impact assessments will be report) raises very serious concerns about the conduct published as part of the consultation. of both Israel and Hamas during the Gaza conflict. It is vital that each of the parties involved—Israel, Hamas Health: Cancer and the Palestinian Authority—address the allegations made against them. Question On 18 August 2010, the UN Secretary-General Asked by Lord Taylor of Warwick released his second follow-up report on this issue as he was mandated to do by the UN General Assembly To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans resolution of 26 February. This included evidence they have to ensure that cancer survival rates in the provided by Israel and the Palestinian Authority on United Kingdom do not fall in comparison to other the progress of their investigations to date. As the UN western countries. [HL5546] Secretary-General indicated in his 18 August follow-up report on this issue, it is for the parties themselves to The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, conduct credible investigations. Department of Health (Earl Howe): We know England’s The Government are committed to upholding cancer survival rates are currently poorer than many accountability for allegations of breaches of international comparable countries. To understand more about the humanitarian law that arose from the Gaza conflict reasons for these persisting differences we are leading through full, fair and impartial investigations by the the International Cancer Benchmarking Partnership WA 389 Written Answers[10 JANUARY 2011] Written Answers WA 390

(ICBP). The ICBP is examining issues around late would be closed ahead of the completion of the presentation and patients having more advanced stage review process and the publication of a public at diagnosis; treatment variation; population awareness consultation document. [HL5444] and beliefs about cancer; general practitioner (GP) To ask Her Majesty’s Government what beliefs and behaviour, and delays from first symptom opportunities supporters of the John Radcliffe to diagnosis. Lessons learnt from the ICBP will help Hospital’s Paediatric Cardiac Surgery Unit (a) have us focus on making the improvements that deliver had, and (b) will have, to participate in the NHS improved survival outcomes. Safe and Sustainable review of children’s congenital It is already widely accepted that early diagnosis of cardiac services in England. [HL5445] cancer is key to improving survival rates, and we recently announced plans to speed up diagnosis by To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether all providing more than £25 million in 2011-12 to give panel members had an opportunity to approve the GPs increased direct access to key diagnostic tests. independent review of paediatric cardiac surgery These tests include non-obstetric ultrasound to support and clinical governance at the John Radcliffe Hospital’s the diagnosis of ovarian cancer; flexible sigmoidoscopy Paediatric Cardiac Surgery Unit before it was published (FS) and colonoscopy to support the diagnosis of in July. [HL5446] bowel cancer; and brain magnetic resonance imaging To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether some scans to support the diagnosis of brain cancer. members of the Safe and Sustainable review of Action to raise public awareness of the signs and children’s congenital cardiac services panel were symptoms of cancer is also being taken to achieve also members of the independent panel which reviewed earlier diagnosis of cancer. In September, we announced paediatric cardiac surgery and clinical governance that £9 million would be provided through the National at the John Radcliffe Hospital’s Paediatric Cardiac Awareness and Early Diagnosis Initiative to support Surgery Unit. [HL5447] 59 local campaigns that will work to raise awareness of the signs and symptoms of bowel, lung and breast To ask Her Majesty’s Government how much cancers and to encourage early presentation at a GP time was given to the Oxford Radcliffe Hospitals surgery. A further £1.75 million is being provided to NHS Trust to review the draft of the independent pilot activity in two regions to test the viability of a review of paediatric cardiac surgery and clinical possible national signs and symptoms campaign on governance at the Paediatric Cardiac Surgery Unit bowel cancer. before the final report was published in July. We are extending both the National Health Service [HL5448] Bowel Cancer Screening Programme (NHSBCSP) and NHS Breast Screening Programme to ensure the earlier diagnosis of cancer. The former is being extended to men and women aged 70 to 75, the latter to women The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, aged 47 to 73. Those above the upper age limit will Department of Health (Earl Howe): The decision about continue to be able to self-refer for screening. the future of the children’s congenital cardiac service We are also introducing FS to the NHSBCSP at the John Radcliffe Hospital and the other current Programme. This can detect abnormalities before they services will not be taken until the outcome of the public consultation has been considered by the Joint become cancer, as well has helping to detect cancer l early. Experts estimate this technology will save around Committee of Primary Care Trusts (JCPCT) . 3,000 lives a year. Sixty million pounds has been The JCPCT aims to agree recommendations for provided for a four-year rollout and, subject to the reconfiguration at a public meeting in the next few approval of the UK National Screening Committee, months and these will be published for a full public pilots will begin next year. consultation. Parents, National Health Service staff The current review of the cancer reform strategy is and the public will have the opportunity to make their considering what more needs to be done to achieve views known during the consultation process, including improved survival outcomes, and we aim to publish an on the future of the service at the John Radcliffe updated strategy shortly. Hospital. The independent investigation into the children’s congenital cardiac service at the John Radcliffe Hospital Health: Cardiology in July 2010 recommended the continued suspension Questions of the service pending a decision on its future place Asked by Lord Crisp within the national service by the NHS Safe and Sustainable review. To ask Her Majesty’s Government when the In May and June 2010, an expert panel chaired by NHS Safe and Sustainable review of children’s Professor Sir Ian Kennedy assessed all hospitals in congenital cardiac services in England and Wales England that provide children’s congenital cardiac decided to exclude the option of keeping open the surgery services. The Safe and Sustainable assessment John Radcliffe Hospital’s Paediatric Cardiac Surgery process assessed the ability of the current congenital Unit. [HL5443] cardiac surgical services to meet new standards in the To ask Her Majesty’s Government why the NHS future, and the outcome of this assessment was that Safe and Sustainable review of children’s congenital the service at the John Radcliffe Hospital unit received cardiac services publicly announced that the John the lowest ranking assessment of the current 11 centres Radcliffe Hospital’s Paediatric Cardiac Surgery Unit by a significant margin. WA 391 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 392

The Safe and Sustainable review team undertook cardiac surgery unit is not held centrally. This is a further work to determine whether the location of the matter for South Central Strategic Health Authority. John Radcliffe Hospital could justify its inclusion in 1 The JCPCT was established as part of the NHS Safe and potential options on the grounds that this would improve Sustainable Programme to develop the consultation document overall access for children and families. This showed on behalf of PCTs and take decisions on issues, which are the that, in the national context of a reduction in number subject of consultation. of units, the inclusion of the John Radcliffe Hospital service in the potential options would not improve overall access for children and families. Health: Midwifery Having considered the outcome of this independent assessment, and on the basis of information currently Questions available, the Safe and Sustainable review team is Asked by The Earl of Listowel likely to recommend to the JCPCT that the eventual options for reconfiguration that are put out for public To ask Her Majesty’s Government how they are consultation in 2011 do not include the children’s seeking to make midwifery more attractive to congenital cardiac surgery service at the John Radcliffe practitioners. [HL5437] Hospital. This does not mean that the JCPCT has made any final decision about the future of the service at the John Radcliffe Hospital, pending the outcome The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, of the public consultation. Department of Health (Earl Howe): There are currently The review team has shared this information in 26,451 midwives working in the National Health Service, advance of formal consultation and without delay so more than ever before, supported by a record number that the trust and other interested parties are kept of midwifery students which suggests that midwifery informed of emerging potential recommendations in remains an attractive profession. The White Paper line with best stakeholder engagement practice. Liberating the NHS and supporting documents will build on this by putting clinicians in the driving seat, There has been a wide and robust engagement reducing red tape and upholding the NHS Constitution. process. In October 2009 a national stakeholder event, attended by 200 people from across the country, included Asked by The Earl of Listowel the representatives from John Radcliffe Hospital as well as parents and carers of children treated at Oxford. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what were the The outcome of this event informed the development numbers of midwives (a) leaving, and (b) entering, of the clinical standards and the clinical case for practice in each of the past 10 years. [HL5494] change. There have also been further local stakeholder engagement events, held between June and July 2010. On 15 June 2010, the Safe and Sustainable engagement Earl Howe: The NHS Information Centre does not event took place in Oxford. It is planned that further hold the data requested as it does not hold information local engagement events will take place as part of the on the number of midwives registered to practice. formal consultation in 2011, including one in Oxford. The White Paper, Equity and Excellence: Liberating the NHS, makes clear our commitment to give people Information regarding whether all panel members more control over their own care, such as extending had an opportunity to approve the independent review maternity choice to include pre-conception, antenatal, of paediatric cardiac surgery and clinical governance and postnatal care. This includes home birth, midwife-led at the John Radcliffe Hospital’s paediatric cardiac care and obstetric care. surgery unit is not held centrally. This is a matter for South Central Strategic Health Authority. The number of midwives in terms of headcount increased by 787 to 26,451 in total from September The Safe and Sustainable review steering group 2008 to September 2009 (an increase of just over 3 per includes Mr William Brawn, consultant surgeon cent). The number of full time equivalent (fte) midwives representing the British Congenital Cardiac Association, increased by 597 to 20,236 in total (also just over 3 per who was also a member of the independent panel that cent) in the same period. reviewed paediatric cardiac surgery and clinical governance at the John Radcliffe Hospital’s Paediatric Cardiac The Government are committed to training the Surgery Unit. numbers of midwives needed subject to the birth rate and are considering ways of helping to improve midwife The role of the Safe and Sustainable paediatric recruitment and retention. The planned number of cardiac steering group was to develop the recommended midwives in training in 2010-11 is 2,493—a record clinical standards and the clinical model of care for level. paediatric cardiac services in England. We expect there will be a sustained increase in the No member of the JCPCT, which is responsible for number of new midwives available to the service over consultation and decision-making for the Safe and the next few years. However, it is for local healthcare Sustainable review, was a member of the independent providers to decide how best to organise their workforce panel. to achieve better outcomes and value for money. Information regarding how much time was given to Asked by The Earl of Listowel the Oxford Radcliffe Hospitals NHS Trust to review the draft of the independent review of paediatric To ask Her Majesty’s Government what are the cardiac surgery and clinical governance of the paediatric vacancy rates in midwifery posts. [HL5495] WA 393 Written Answers[10 JANUARY 2011] Written Answers WA 394

Earl Howe: As at 31 March 2010, the total vacancy Institute for Health Research (NIHR) School for Public rate for midwives in hospital and community health Health Research and a Policy Research Unit on Behaviour services (HCHS) was 2.7 per cent, which represents and Health. There will be greater transparency, with 559 vacancies. data on health outcomes published nationally and The three-month vacancy rate for midwives in HCHS locally. was 1.2 per cent, which represents 255 vacancies. Two ongoing research programmes have a focus on A vacancy is defined as one which employers are cost effectiveness. The NIHR Health Technology actively trying to fill. An employer is actively trying to Assessment (HTA) programme evaluates interventions fill a vacancy if a formal recruitment process is currently in the National Health Service, and the NIHR Public in operation (for example, advertisements in “trade” Health Research (PHR) programme evaluates public or general press, notification given to accepted internet health interventions delivered in other settings. Details recruitment sites like “NHS Jobs”, etc) as at 31 March. of HTA and PHR projects are available on the programme websites at: A three-month vacancy is defined as one which has www.hta.ac.uk/research lasted three months or more and which employers are actively trying to fill as at 31 March. Thus, the emphasis www.phr.ac.uk/funded_projects is on vacancies which employers are finding hard to fill, rather than on normal staff turnover. Health: Research Question Health: Policy Asked by Baroness Thomas of Winchester Question To ask Her Majesty’s Government what meetings have taken place between the Department for Work Asked by Lord Mawson and Pensions and the Department of Health about including participation in health research commissioned To ask Her Majesty’s Government how they will by the National Institute for Health Research in the ensure that policies on health strike a balance between new rules on the reimbursement of expenses for individual responsibility for health and legislation participation. [HL5459] by the state. [HL5567] The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Earl Howe): One meeting has Department of Health (Earl Howe): The Government taken place between the Department for Work and believe that there are clear limits on the extent to Pensions and the Department of Health about including which our objectives for improving the health and participation in health research commissioned by the well-being of the nation should be achieved through National Institute for Health Research in the new legislation. rules on the reimbursement of expenses for participation. There is a role for all of us—in government, industry, That meeting was on 23 June 2010. It concerned at national, local and individual levels—in delivering changes to the benefit rules introduced on 29 October the positive changes needed to improve the nation’s 2009 that govern treatment of payments made to health. service users who are consulted on behalf of public bodies. In the recently published public health White Paper, Healthy Lives, Healthy People: Our Strategy for Public Since that meeting, Her Majesty’s Government have Health in England, which has already been placed in announced their intention to replace all existing working the Library, the Government stated that they would age benefits with a single universal credit. A White consider what can be achieved through voluntary Paper, Universal Credit: Welfare that Works, setting approaches to improving health before considering out the Government’s proposals, was published on regulation. 11 November (Cm 7957). The Work and Pensions Select Committee has decided to hold a short inquiry into the Government’s proposals and has invited Health: Preventive Health submissions from interested organisations and individuals. Question Higher Education: Funding Asked by Lord Mawson Questions To ask Her Majesty’s Government what research Asked by Lord Willis of Knaresborough they have undertaken into the cost implications of To ask Her Majesty’s Government what level of investing in new innovative approaches to preventative support is provided for the matched funding scheme health. [HL5564] introduced in 2008 during the new Corporate Social Responsibility Programme. [HL5374] The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Earl Howe): The Government’s The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, proposals for public health evaluation and research Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs are outlined in Healthy Lives, Healthy People: Our (Lord Henley): The matched funding scheme for voluntary Strategy for Public Health in England. The best evidence giving, which is run by the Higher Education Funding and evaluation will be used, supporting innovative Council for England, has been allocated £200 million approaches to behaviour change—with a new National over the three academic years from 2008-09. Despite WA 395 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 396 the need to address the deficit we have been able to “Other income- other services rendered” includes all income announce recently that we will honour the commitment in respect of services rendered to outside bodies, including the to fund the scheme in the final academic year 2011-12. supply of goods and consultancies “Other income — other”includes residences & catering operations, Asked by Lord Willis of Knaresborough Grants from local authorities, income from health and hospital authorities, release of deferred capital grants, income from intellectual To ask Her Majesty’s Government what was the property rights, and other operating income. level of funding awarded from the Charity Research The English HE sector has changed over the period 2004-05 to Support Fund in each of the years of the current 2008-09: Leeds College of Music joined the sector in 2005-06; Corporate Social Responsibility Programme, and data for University of Buckingham (a privately funded HEI) are what is the proposed level of funding for each of included from 2005-06 onwards; Heythrop College, Liverpool the years in the next Corporate Social Responsibility Institute of Performing Arts and Guildhall School of Music and Drama joined the sector in 2006-07. Programme. [HL5375]

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Baroness Holocaust Memorial Day Wilcox): I will write to my noble friend and a copy of Question my letter will be placed in the Library of the House. Asked by Lord Alton of Liverpool Higher Education: Tuition Fees To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they will commemorate the 70th anniversary of the United Question Nations declaration revealing information on the Asked by Lord Willis of Knaresborough extermination of the Jewish communities of eastern Europe and announced in the House of Commons To ask Her Majesty’s Government, following the on 17 December 1942. [HL5295] introduction of variable student fees in 2005, what additional income accrued to English universities in each of the years 2005–06 to 2009–10. [HL5371] The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): The Government have no plans specifically to commemorate the 70th The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, anniversary of the UN declaration revealing information Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs on the extermination of the Jewish communities of (Lord Henley): The table below breaks down the income eastern Europe. of English higher education institutions (HEIs) by The UK commemorates this, and other genocides, source for academic years 2004-05 to 2008-09. Data on Holocaust Memorial Day on 27 January each year. for 2009-10 will be available in March 2011. Income of English institutions by category 2004-05 to 2008-09 in £000s Source 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 House of Lords: Life Peerages Tuition 3,687,006 3,941,168 4,649,073 5,374,265 6,277,553 fees and Question education contracts Asked by Lord Bassam of Brighton Funding 5,618,441 6,121,045 6,454,407 6,861,061 7,097,214 council grants To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to Research 2,347,239 2,540,013 2,744,893 3,011,248 3,333,555 the Written Answer by Lord Taylor of Holbeach on grants 14 December (WA 169–70) and the answer by Lord and McNally on 1 December (Official Report, col. 1673), contracts how and when the Prime Minister will fulfil the Other 822,328 1,009,779 1,108,518 1,231,880 1,346,692 income - commitment to appoint Peers to the House of other Lords to reflect the political party share of the vote services rendered at the last general election; and what assessment Other 2,092,474 2,214,046 2,308,233 2,500,434 2,676,994 they have made of the numerical composition of income - the House of Lords once the commitment has been other met. [HL5442] Endowment 253,872 288,917 326,494 421,303 295,230 and investment income The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Total 14,821,360 16,114,968 17,591,618 19,400,191 21,027,238 Strathclyde): Nominations for life peerages are a matter income for the Prime Minister, whose most recent nominations Change +1,293,608 +1,476,650 +1,808,573 +1,627,047 from were announced on 19 November. The coalition previous programme makes it clear that, pending reform of the year House of Lords, appointments will be made with the Source: Higher Education Statistics Agency (HESA) objective of creating a second Chamber reflective of Note: Figures are in cash terms not in real terms, and relate to the share of the vote secured by the political parties in the academic year, not financial year. “Tuition Fees and Contracts” the last general election. This remains the Government’s includes fee income from UK, EU and non-EU students. policy. WA 397 Written Answers[10 JANUARY 2011] Written Answers WA 398

Houses of Parliament: Legislation membership. The UK will continue to encourage Iceland to align itself as soon as possible with the EU’s Questions common position on whaling. Asked by Lord Norton of Louth To ask the Leader of the House what progress Immigration: Detention has been made towards introducing a public reading stage for bills. [HL5482] Question To ask the Leader of the House what progress Asked by Lord Dholakia has been made towards introducing a public reading To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many day within a bill’s committee stage. [HL5483] children are in detention for immigration and asylum purposes. [HL4845] The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde): The Leader’s Group led by Lord Goodlad is in the process of reviewing the working practices of The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Neville- the House, including the way in which legislation Jones): The latest published statistics show that as at is scrutinised. I expect to receive the group’s the 30 September 2010 there were five children, detained recommendations in due course. solely under Immigration Act powers, in UK Border Agency removal centres and short-term holding facilities. This figure is rounded to the nearest five and is of Housing: Homelessness people recorded as being under 18 on 30 September Question 2010. Information on children detained solely under Asked by Lord Taylor of Warwick Immigration Act powers is available in the Control of Immigration: Quarterly Statistical Summary, United To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they Kingdom, July-September 2010 in the Library of the plan to introduce legislation in relation to the provision House and the Home Office’s Research, Development by local councils of private rented accommodation and Statistics website at: www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/ for homeless families. [HL5266] immigration-asylum-stats.html.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government India (Baroness Hanham): Homeless households are one of the groups that must be given reasonable preference—that Questions is to say, overall priority—for allocations of social Asked by Lord Alton of Liverpool housing, and the Government have no plans to change this. The Localism Bill, introduced on 13 December. To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they includes provision to give local authorities greater will increase their support of government and non- flexibility to bring the homelessness duty to an end governmental organisations’ initiatives in India that with an offer of accommodation in the private rented target Dalits through education, economic development sector, without requiring the applicant’s agreement. and access to justice, having regard to the extent to We think local authorities are best placed to weigh the which Dalits are subject to human trafficking. needs of individuals owed the homelessness duty against [HL5307] the overall demand for social housing in their district. The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Iceland: Fin Whales Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): All UK development Question programmes are designed to benefit particularly the poorest and most excluded, including scheduled castes. Asked by Lord Ashcroft For example, we have supported the Indian Government’s Education for All scheme, which has helped to bring To ask Her Majesty’s Government what the proportion of Dalit children in school into line representations they have made to the Government with their proportion in the general population. The of Iceland with regard to their resumption of the Department for International Development (DfID) large-scale killing of fin whales. [HL5415] also supports specific measures in India’s 120 poorest districts to promote the empowerment and access to The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth benefits and services of excluded groups, including Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): My honourable Dalits. The EU will conduct a workshop on social friend the Minister for Natural Environment and Fisheries exclusion with the Government of India in February at the Department for Environment, Food and Rural 2011. Affairs (Defra), Richard Benyon, discussed whaling In terms of future plans, the Secretary of State for with the Icelandic ambassador when they met in International Development has launched a bilateral November 2010. The ambassador was advised of the aid review of all DfID country programmes, including strength of feeling in this country against Iceland’s India, to ensure that we are giving aid where it is most whaling and that whaling is incompatible with EU needed. We are in close dialogue with the Government WA 399 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 400 of India about the future of the India programme. whether the convention will provide suitable protection, Details will be announced on conclusion of the review and whether it is formulated in a way that helps it to be process. widely ratified. Asked by Lord Alton of Liverpool To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their assessment of the announcements by Indian Home International Space Station Minister P Chidambaram and the Union Minister Question of State for Home, Ajay Maken, regarding the setting up of integrated anti-human trafficking units Asked by Lord Dykes and of training courses for Indian police and judiciary; To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many and whether they will explore how the United Kingdom British scientific personnel have served on the orbiting and India can share learning and best practice in International Space Station since it began ten years this area. [HL5308] ago; and what percentage of the total number that has represented in each year. [HL5341] Lord Howell of Guildford: We welcome the announcements made by the Indian Home Minister regarding the setting up of 330 anti-human trafficking The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, units and a training course on anti-human trafficking Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Baroness at the Indira Gandhi National Open University in Wilcox): No British scientific personnel have served collaboration with the Ministry of Home Affairs. We on the International Space Station (ISS), although would be open to exploring the possibilities of the UK four of the NASA astronauts are British born, namely and India sharing learning and best practice in the Nicholas Patrick, Michael Foale, Piers Sellers, and future. Richard Garriott. Inflation Question Iraq Asked by Lord Myners Question To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment Asked by Lord Alton of Liverpool they have made of the Bank of England’s recent To ask Her Majesty’s Government what discussions record in forecasting inflation. [HL5423] they have had with the governments of Iraq and the United States about violence against Christians in The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Iraq. [HL5439] Sassoon): There are a range of independent forecasts of the economy. The Bank of England’s assessment of its forecasting record can be found on page 48 of the The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth August 2010 inflation report. Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): On 10 November 2010 my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary International Labour Organisation: met the Iraqi Minister of Foreign Affairs, Hoshyar Domestic Work Zebari, and raised the issue of Iraqi Christians with him. Mr Zebari agreed that the protection of Christians Question was the responsibility of the Iraqi Government. Asked by Baroness Tonge My right honourable friend the Prime Minister also raised this in a telephone conversation with Prime To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they Minister al-Maliki on 15 November 2010. Prime Minister consider that a new International Labour Organization al-Maliki expressed concern at recent developments, Convention on Domestic Work would ensure increased and welcomed UK support, particularly on persuading legal protection for domestic workers and help to the Christian minority groups to remain in Iraq. The make all relevant actors accountable worldwide; Prime Minister made it clear that the Iraqis had the and whether they will reconsider their position UK’s full support. from the International Labour Organization Conference in June 2010 and support a robust During his visit to Iraq from 22-25 November 2010, binding convention in June 2011. [HL5472] my honourable friend Alistair Burt raised the need to improve the protection of Christians and other minorities The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, with all his interlocutors. Department for Work and Pensions (Lord Freud): The We will continue to press the Iraqi authorities to do proposed new ILO convention on decent work for all they can to bring to justice those who are responsible domestic workers has the potential to enhance the for this attack on innocent worshippers, and all Iraq’s protection that is currently provided by the existing politicians and diverse communities to work together ILO fundamental conventions for domestic workers to tackle the threat of violent extremism. worldwide. The specific requirements of the new The United States has also publicly condemned the instrument, including the responsibilities of the various attacks on the Christian community in Iraq. The actors involved, will be negotiated during the 2011 Foreign and Commonwealth Office continues to hold ILO conference. The UK Government will take into discussions with US colleagues on a range of issues account a number of factors in the negotiations, including relating to Iraq, including the situation of Iraqi Christians. WA 401 Written Answers[10 JANUARY 2011] Written Answers WA 402

Israel Lord Howell of Guildford: As my noble friend is aware, the UK has a strong record of lobbying hard Questions on issues relating to house demolitions and settlement Asked by Baroness Tonge building and we regularly raise our concerns with the Israeli authorities. We are further concerned at a recent To ask Her Majesty’s Government what action increase in demolitions and evictions in East Jerusalem they will take to take, as a signatory of the Geneva and Area C. We continue to monitor the situation Convention, to ensure compliance by the government closely and will continue to raise these issues with the of Israel with international law as embodied in the Israeli Government as necessary. Convention. [HL5226]

The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Israel and Palestine: West Bank Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): Israel is bound by Question international law in the same way as other countries. Asked by Baroness Tonge We both expect and encourage Israel to adhere to its obligations both as a member of the international To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment community and as one of the few democracies in the they have made of the government of the United Middle East. States’ decision to end its efforts to convince Israel Asked by Baroness Tonge to stop building settlements in the West Bank and what representations have they made on this matter. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what [HL5224] representations they have made to the Government of Israel concerning the recent destruction of The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth agricultural facilities in Bani Hassan, and the removal Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): My right honourable of two agricultural projects created by the Palestinian friend the Foreign Secretary made our position clear Authority in the area of Wadi Qana, and in the in his statement of 9 December in which he said: town of Dair Estia-Salfit. [HL5227] “I am disappointed that Israel has not renewed the freeze on settlement construction and that peace talks are currently on Lord Howell of Guildford: As my noble friend is hold. It is Britain’s longstanding view that settlements are illegal aware, the UK has a strong record of lobbying hard under international law and an obstacle to peace. on issues relating to house demolitions and settlement I spoke to US Envoy Senator Mitchell today to underline building and we regularly raise our concerns with the Britain’s support for work to find a way forward. The leadership Israeli authorities. We are further concerned at a recent of the United States remains vital. increase in demolitions and evictions in East Jerusalem There is an urgent need for progress to secure a two state and Area C. We continue to monitor the situation solution, based on 1967 borders, with Jerusalem as the future capital of two states and with a fair settlement for refugees. This is closely and will continue to raise the matter with the important for Israelis, for Palestinians and for the international Israeli Government as necessary. community including the UK. Asked by Baroness Tonge We will continue to work with the United States, the parties to the conflict and with our EU and UN partners to achieve a two To ask Her Majesty’s Government what state solution. In addition, we will continue to press for an end to representations they have made to the Government all settlement activity”. of Israel concerning the recent demolition of six nurseries and three stores in Hizma in the Jerusalem Kenya Governorate. [HL5228] Questions Lord Howell of Guildford: As my noble friend is Asked by Lord Chidgey aware, the UK has a strong record of lobbying hard on issues relating to house demolitions and settlement To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment building and we regularly raise our concerns with the they have made of the International Criminal Court’s Israeli authorities. We are further concerned at a recent motion to indict several high-ranking Kenyan increase in demolitions and evictions in East Jerusalem politicians, including the finance minister and a and Area C. We continue to monitor the situation former national police chief, for crimes against closely and to raise the matter with the Israeli Government humanity during the aftermath of Kenya’s election as necessary. in 2007 and early 2008. [HL5428] Asked by Baroness Tonge The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth To ask Her Majesty’s Government what Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): The naming by the representations they have made to the Government International Criminal Court (ICC) of suspects behind of Israel concerning the recent destruction of a Kenya’s post-election violence of 2007-08 is a further mosque, two residential structures and four barns step towards ensuring much needed justice for the in Khirbet Yasra (Tubas) in the northern valley victims of that violence. Polls suggest the majority of displacing two families of eleven members, and a Kenyan citizens firmly support the ICC, which has house in Yatta (Hebron) leaving 25 people without had to intervene because of the failure by Kenya’s shelter. [HL5229] politicians to agree a credible local judicial mechanism WA 403 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 404 to take the cases forward. We welcome the Kenyan Lord’s Resistance Army Government’s commitment to co-operate fully with the court. The ICC process is an important element of Question the wider reform agenda agreed by the coalition parties Asked by The Earl of Sandwich to address the underlying causes of Kenya’s instability. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment Asked by Lord Chidgey they have made of the threat posed by the Lord’s To ask Her Majesty’s Government what Resistance Army to Uganda and Sudan. [HL5298] representations they have made to the Government of Kenya and the International Criminal Court The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth (ICC) about providing sufficient witness protection Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): We assess that the in the context of the ICC’s motion to indict several Lord’s Resistance Army (LRA) continues to pose an high-ranking Kenyan politicians for crimes against unprincipled and violent threat to civilian populations humanity. [HL5429] throughout the region, in particular in the Democratic Republic of Congo, Central African Republic and southern Sudan. This was demonstrated recently by Lord Howell of Guildford: Together with our EU attacks in the Central African Republic and Democratic and other international partners, we have regularly Republic of the Congo, which I condemn unreservedly. urged the Government of Kenya to provide sufficient witness protection, make clear their condemnation of witness intimidation and ensure that those suspected Migration Advisory Committee of intimidation face prosecution; we did so recently Question in a meeting with Kenya’s Minister of Justice on 22 November and in an article published in the local Asked by Lord Laird media on 13 December. We support chief prosecutor Moreno Ocampo’s statement on 15 December that he To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to would seek to prosecute at the International Criminal the Written Answer by Baroness Neville-Jones on Court anyone suspected of intimidating or bribing 27 September (WA 545), what are the criteria for witnesses. The UK has contributed £200,000 to the choosing the members of the Migration Advisory International Criminal Court witness protection Committee; whether they will widen the scope of its programme for Kenya. This funding underlines the membership beyond labour market economists; and UK’s commitment to a successful investigation in whether they will include those representing business Kenya and the importance of protecting witnesses and employee interests affected by inward migration at risk. and intra-company transfers. [HL5488]

The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Neville- Jones): The membership of the Migration Advisory Local Government: Funding Committee (MAC) was determined following the 2006 Questions public consultation on establishing the MAC. There are no fixed criteria for appointing members. In addition Asked by Lord Myners to labour market economists, the Commission for Employment and Skills and the UK Border Agency To ask Her Majesty’s Government what action are also represented. The Government have no current they will take to ensure that cutbacks in central plans to alter the membership of the MAC. government funding to Cornwall County Council do not undermine programmes supported by European Union convergence arrangements. [HL5346] National Institute for Health and Clinical To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether cutbacks Excellence in central government funding to Cornwall County Questions Council will lead to the reduction of European Union convergence funding for the county or the Asked by Lord Turnberg cutting of programmes launched or planned as part To ask Her Majesty’s Government what changes of this European Union initiative. [HL5347] are planned to the roles and responsibilities of the National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence. [HL5511] The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government To ask Her Majesty’s Government what changes (Baroness Hanham): We expect that match-funding for they are planning to the ways in which the National European structural funds programmes in Cornwall Institute for Health Clinical Excellence will influence will continue to be available from a range of public general practitioner partnerships. [HL5512] and private sector sources. The European structural funds allocated to Cornwall The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, and the Isles of Scilly for the 2007-13 programme are Department of Health (Earl Howe): As the White guaranteed, provided the programmes meet their annual Paper Equity and Excellence: Liberating the NHS made spend targets. clear and, subject to parliamentary approval, we will WA 405 Written Answers[10 JANUARY 2011] Written Answers WA 406 establish the National Institute for Health Clinical The content of medical training is the responsibility Excellence (NICE) on a firmer statutory footing to of the General Medical Council (GMC), which is the secure its independence and extend its remit to social competent authority for medical training in the United care. Kingdom. GMC approval of the GP training curriculum NICE will provide advice to both the National in the future will consequently need to ensure it reflects Health Service Commissioning Board and Ministers the responsibilities of GPs following implementation to enable them to discharge their respective quality of the White Paper proposals. improvement functions effectively. The NHS Commissioning Board will work with NICE to ensure NHS: Restructuring that general practitioner consortia have access to the most up-to-date expert advice on the clinical and Question cost-effectiveness of different interventions, including Asked by Lord Mawson medicines. To ask Her Majesty’s Government how they will use the restructuring of the health service to create NHS: Ambulance Trusts a new narrative of health which goes beyond the Question traditional biomedical model. [HL5565] Asked by Lord Colwyn The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Earl Howe): I will shortly write To ask Her Majesty’s Government what measures to the noble Lord to answer this question, and others, they are putting in place to support the country’s which time did not permit me to address during a NHS Ambulance Trusts in relation to reaction time debate in the House on 16 December 2010. standards during periods of exceptional weather. [HL5525] Northern Ireland: Equality Commission The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, and Parades Commission Department of Health (Earl Howe): The Department Question of Health expects each ambulance trust to provide and manage its service locally, with all ambulance Asked by Lord Laird trusts still required to meet all existing national response time targets across the full operational year; including To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they during the winter period. This includes the safe use of provided the media with biographical details of its fleet, which can be of particular importance when those recently appointed to the Equality Commission vehicles are being driven in adverse weather conditions. Northern Ireland and the Parades Commission; and, if so, why those details were not placed on the Northern Ireland Office’s media centre website. NHS: Reform [HL5553] Question Lord Shutt of Greetland: Biographical details of Asked by Lord Mawson those recently appointed to the Equality Commission Northern Ireland and the Parades Commission were To ask Her Majesty’s Government how they will included in the notes to editors element of the individual ensure that local general practitioners engage with news releases circulated to the media. innovators and entrepreneurs and that their training The core text of the news releases was published on takes this into account. [HL5566] the Northern Ireland Office website at the same time. Notes to editors are not routinely published on the website. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Earl Howe): The White Paper Liberating the NHS set out our proposals to devolve Northern Ireland: Women power and responsibility for commissioning services to local consortia of general practitioner (GP) practices Question supported by the creation of a NHS Commissioning Asked by Baroness Tonge Board. The reforms will liberate professionals and providers To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to from top-down control and secure the quality, innovation the Written Answer by Lord Shutt of Greetland on and productivity to improve outcomes. We are confident 8 December (WA 70), what measures are being that giving clinicians direct influence over commissioning taken to increase the representation of women in decisions will ensure that commissioning will be Northern Ireland in public and political life. undertaken much closer to patients and the public, [HL5470] and that commissioning decisions will be carried out in a more innovative and effective way. Giving patients Lord Shutt of Greetland: Consistent with the greater choice and ensuring effective competition will requirements of Section 75 of the Northern Ireland stimulate innovation and improvement. Act 1998, the Northern Ireland Executive undertakes WA 407 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 408 considerable work to promote gender equality, and all The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Northern Ireland departments and the Northern Ireland Department for Work and Pensions (Lord Freud): The Office are required to have due regard to the need to UK state pension is payable worldwide but is only promote equality of opportunity between men and up-rated abroad where there is a legal requirement or women generally when making public appointments. reciprocal agreement to do so. A well known court In addition, the Equality Act 2010 has extended to case challenging the UK’s position was heard by the Northern Ireland until 2030 the period during which European Court of Human Rights’ Grand Chamber women only shortlists would be permitted for the in September 2009 and the Court’s judgment of March purposes of candidate selection. 2010 was in the UK’s favour. We continue to take our The Government are committed to ending dual obligations under the terms of the European Convention mandates in Northern Ireland, which will allow elected on Human Rights seriously and are satisfied that we offices to become more open to groups currently are complying. We therefore have no plans to make underrepresented, including women. any changes to the current arrangements. Asked by Lord Shipley Parking Fines To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is the administrative cost to the Department for Work Questions and Pensions of uprating the frozen pensions of Asked by Lord Lucas United Kingdom pensioners living abroad while they are visiting the United Kingdom or the European To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their Union or countries with whom there are reciprocal response to reports of private bailiffs using common agreements. [HL5480] law distraint to enforce alleged debts incurred by motorists who had parked on private property; and whether they will issue guidance for private parking Lord Freud: The Department for Work and Pensions companies and private bailiffs firms to clarify this does not collect data on the “administrative costs” area of law. [HL5507] relating to this specific matter. There is no business need for the collection of this data, therefore I am unable provide you with the information you have The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord requested. McNally): The Government are unaware of reports or other evidence about bailiffs using common law distraint powers to enforce alleged debts incurred by motorists Police and Crime Commissioners who park on private property. It would be inappropriate for the Government to issue guidance to private companies Question on the lawfulness or otherwise of their enforcement Asked by Lord Laird activity. That would be a matter for the court to determine if challenged by a debtor. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans Asked by Lord Lucas they have to make Police and Crime Commissioners subject to an annual general meeting for questions To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they from all stakeholders. [HL5332] will prevent private parking companies and private bailiffs which pursue alleged debts incurred by motorists who had parked on private property obtaining keeper The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Neville- details from the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Authority Jones): As set out in the Police Reform and Social where there is no proven intention of the private Responsibility Bill, Police and Crime Commissioners parking companies issuing a county court claim or will be required to attend an annual public meeting other form of legal recovery. [HL5508] with their Police and Crime Panel, who will provide robust scrutiny, challenge, and advice to the Commissioner on his or her decisions on policing in the force area. Earl Attlee: There are no plans to change the rules for the release of information to private car parking The Bill also requires Commissioners to engage companies. Information is not released directly to properly with all those with an interest in policing in bailiffs for car parking related incidents. The Driver their force area, but it will be for Commissioners and Vehicle Licensing Agency has policies and procedures themselves to choose how best to achieve this. in place to ensure data are disclosed only where it is both lawful and fair to do so. Prisoners: Education Questions Pensions Asked by Lord Quirk Questions To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their Asked by Lord Shipley assessment of why, according to the Prison Factfile To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they of December 2010 published by the Prison Reform will end the practice of not uprating pensions of Trust (page 50), only about 20 per cent of prisoners United Kingdom pensioners living overseas. “with serious literacy or numeracy needs enrol on a [HL5479] course that would help them”. [HL5500] WA 409 Written Answers[10 JANUARY 2011] Written Answers WA 410

The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord to the activity. The availability of learning and skills McNally): The National Audit Office in its report across the prison means that the number of prisoners Meeting Needs? The Offenders’ Learning and Skills that access learning and skills is on the increase. Service [HC310—March 2008] identified the key obstacles Asked by Lord Quirk to ensuring offenders engage with learning and skills as: the availability of appropriate courses; negative To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their perceptions of education among prisoners; other activities assessment of why, according to the Prison Factfile were assessed as having higher priorities for some of December 2010 published by the Prison Reform prisoners; and the lack of strong enough incentives for Trust (page 50), “only one third of education managers offenders to attend. regularly receive prisoners’ records following The Government accepted the National Audit Office’s transfers”. [HL5502] analysis and are responding to these obstacles through their review of offender learning (Breaking the Cycle: Straight to Skills, to be published shortly), particularly Lord McNally: The information in the Prison Reform by ensuring offender learning resources are properly Trust’s Prison Factfile of December 2010 relating to distributed and by putting a significantly enhanced transfer of prisoner records dates back to a 2002 focus on developing in offenders the skills employers report. Since then, we have introduced a new IT system need, including the underpinning skills of literacy and to make information on prisoner learning needs and numeracy. progress available immediately as prisoners move between establishments. In her annual report for 2009-10, Her Increasingly, opportunities are being offered for Majesty’s Chief Inspector notes that “The quality of prisoners to access learning and skills outside of the initial assessments and information-sharing between traditional classroom environment. Embedded learning prisons continues to improve. As a result, the number offers prisoners the opportunity to learn functional of repeat assessments has significantly reduced”. skills (numeracy, literacy and language) in a work environment. Other interventions such as offending Asked by Lord Quirk behaviour programmes, thinking skills and other activities have a learning and skills element embedded. This To ask Her Majesty’s Government what improved means that learning opportunities have direct relevance outcomes arose as a result of funding for prison to the activity. The availability of learning and skills education increasing from £47.5 million in 1999 to across the prison means that the number of prisoners £122 million in 2004. [HL5503] that access learning and skills is on the increase. Asked by Lord Quirk Lord McNally: There was an increase in the number of basic skills awards from 25,000 in 2001 to over To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their 63,000 in 2004-05. assessment of why, according to the Prison Factfile Also, the average number of hours that prisoners of December 2010 published by the Prison Reform spent in education activity rose from 6.37 hours per Trust (page 50), only “just under a third of the prisoner per week in 1999-2000 to 6.88 hours per prison population is attending education classes”. prisoner per week in 2004-05. [HL5501] The increased funding also enabled the introduction of a head of learning and skills to each adult, public sector prison in England. The Adult Learning Lord McNally: The information in the Prison Reform Inspectorate’s chief inspector’s annual report for 2003-04 Trust’s Prison Factfile of December 2010 was an said: estimate of the prisoner participation rate in education “Most prisons gave education and training a high priority. prior to the introduction of new offender learning Their understanding of the importance of learning and education delivery arrangements in 2005. Since then, the National to the resettlement of offenders grew. The impact of the newly Audit Office in Meeting Needs? The Offenders’ Learning appointed heads of learning and skills began to be felt”. and Skills Service [HC310—March 2008] reported The latter part of this period saw the full education that 42 per cent of offenders starting custodial sentences inspection regime applied to prison learning from in September 2006 had at least registered for a learning 2002, and the inadequacy rate for learning and skills and skills course in the nine months between then and provision in prisons fell year-on-year, and continued June 2007. Latest Skills Funding Agency data show to fall in subsequent years. that, over the course of the 2009-10 academic year, an average of 41 per cent of the adult (age 18+) population in English public sector prisons participated in education Prudential Regulatory Authority on any one day. Increasingly, opportunities are being offered for Question prisoners to access learning and skills outside of the Asked by Lord Forsyth of Drumlean traditional classroom environment. Embedded learning offers prisoners the opportunity to learn functional To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they skills (numeracy, literacy and language) in a work will bring forward proposals to enable the Prudential environment. Other interventions such as offending Regulatory Authority to publish reports following behaviour programmes, thinking skills and other activities an investigation of a bank without the consent of have a learning and skills element embedded. This the bank concerned where it is in the public interest means that learning opportunities have direct relevance to do so. [HL5431] WA 411 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 412

The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Asked by Lord Laird Sassoon): As part of the reforms to the regulatory architecture, the Government are working with the To ask Her Majesty’s Government when they Bank of England and the Financial Services Authority agreed to a range of loans to the Republic of (FSA) to consider what powers should be given to the Ireland; and whether they were aware that £36 million authorities, including the Prudential Regulation Authority, was to be spent by the Government of the Republic to gather, share and disclose information. of Ireland on bonuses to senior staff of the state rescued bank Allied Irish Banks and that only The Government’s view is that, where there is a those officials not living in the United Kingdom legitimate public interest, the results of investigations were to be eligible for those bonuses. [HL5234] into firms should be published subject to appropriate safeguards and the constraints of European law. As set out in Adair Turner’s letter to the chair of the Lord Sassoon: The Government announced their Treasury Select Committee of 15 December 2010, decision, in principle, to participate in the package of the single market directives put in place restrictions on assistance to the Republic of Ireland in the Statement the disclosure of confidential information. These to both Houses on 28 November 2010. restrictions cannot be circumvented by national law. The Irish High Court ruled on 7 December that one of Allied Irish Banks’ (AIB) former employees was Public Assets: Sales entitled to receive his bonus for performance in 2008. The Irish Minister for Finance stated on 13 December Question that he had written to AIB outlining that the payment Asked by Lord Barnett of the required financial support for AIB will be conditional on the non-payment of bonuses awarded, To ask Her Majesty’s Government what estimates irrespective of when they may have been earned. He they have made about the amounts that might be also stated that the board of AIB had considered the realised from the sales of public assets in the years Minister’s letter and decided not to pay the bonus up to and including 2015. [HL5291] payments.

The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Sassoon): I refer the noble Lord to the answer I gave Russia him today (HL5290). Questions Departments’ spending review capital departmental Asked by Lord Hylton expenditure limit settlements were agreed net of assumed fixed asset sales. In addition, the Government have To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment made a number of announcements about asset and they have made of the relationship between the concession sales where substantial progress is expected Russian state and the youth organisation known as within 12 months. It is not, however, appropriate to “Nashi”; and whether they have made representations provide forecasts of the potential proceeds, for commercial to the Government of Russia about attacks on reasons, because policy parameters have not yet been journalists. [HL5280] fully determined, and because there is considerable uncertainty over the likely timing and quantity of proceeds. The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): Nashi is a voluntary organisation and we are not aware of a formal relationship Republic of Ireland: Financial Support with the Government of Russia. There are informal links between Nashi and the Russian Government. Questions For example, the former head of Nashi, Vasiliy Asked by Lord Willoughby de Broke Yakemenko, is now head of Rosmolodezh, the Federal Government’s youth agency. Senior officials, including To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is the Prime Minister Putin and First Deputy Prime Minister legal basis for the proposed loan of £3.2 billion to Shuvalov, have attended Nashi events in the past. the Republic of Ireland; what is the source of funds The Government continue to urge Russia to bring for the loan; and on what terms the loan will be to justice those responsible for the unresolved murder made. [HL5085] of journalists. We are deeply concerned about attacks on journalists in Russia and the low success rate in The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord investigating and prosecuting crimes against journalists. Sassoon): The legal basis for the proposed bilateral The perception of a climate of impunity undermines loan to Ireland is the Loans to Ireland Act 2010. The freedom of expression and human rights in Russia. scoring in the public sector accounts of financial The UK supported the statement made on assistance to Ireland is a matter for the independent 17 November 2010 by EU High Representative Catherine Office for National Statistics. A loan would usually Ashton concerning attacks on journalists in Russia. raise the UK’s public sector net cash requirement, but We will continue to raise this issue both with our EU should not affect public sector net borrowing. Details partners and within the framework of our annual of the financial assistance package, which was announced bilateral human rights dialogue with the Russian on 28 November, have not yet been finalised. Government. WA 413 Written Answers[10 JANUARY 2011] Written Answers WA 414

Asked by Lord Hylton 2011 we will review the funding formula to look at how it can better support the coalition Government’s To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they aims of transparency and fairness and, in particular, will consider imposing visa restrictions on those how targeted support for 16 to 18 year-old learners linked with the death in custody in Russia of Mr Sergei can be aligned with the pupil premium for pre-16s and Magnitsky. [HL5283] the national scholarship programme in higher education.

The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Neville- Jones): As the Prime Minister outlined in a previous Spending Review 2010 response to this issue, the Government remain very Question concerned by Mr Magnitsky’s case. President Medvedev announced an official investigation into this case in Asked by Lord Stevens of Kirkwhelpington November 2009 and we are looking forward to receiving To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their the findings of such investigation in the new year. assessment of the impact of Spending Review 2010 Until then, it would not be appropriate for me to on the funding of centres for musical education and comment any further. performance by local authorities. [HL4874]

Schools: Faith Schools The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Question Schools (Lord Hill of Oareford): In September the Asked by Lord Taylor of Warwick Secretary of State asked Darren Henley, the Managing Director of Classic FM, to carry out a review of music To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans education and to make a series of recommendations they have to encourage faith schools to admit more about the best use of funds in the future. More than pupils from poorer families. [HL5388] 900 parents, schools and music specialists have responded to a call for evidence issued by Mr Henley, and the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for review is expected to make its recommendations to Schools (Lord Hill of Oareford): Through the introduction Ministers before the end of the year. No decisions will of the pupil premium for those pupils eligible for free be made on the level of funding to be made available school meals, the Government are encouraging all for music education until the review has reported. schools, including faith schools, to admit more pupils from deprived backgrounds. In addition to this, faith schools becoming academies or free schools will be Sudan able to prioritise children in receipt of FSM in their Questions admission arrangements. Asked by The Earl of Sandwich Schools: Pupil Premium To ask Her Majesty’s Government what Question representations they have made to both North and Asked by Lord Taylor of Warwick South Sudan on the security risks to Abyei, southern Sudan, in advance of the referendum in January. To ask Her Majesty’s Government how the pupil [HL5296] premium will be funded beyond the age of 16. [HL5187] The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): My right honourable Schools (Lord Hill of Oareford): The equivalent of a friend the Foreign Secretary spoke to Vice-President pupil premium for 16 to 19 year-olds attending schools Taha on 13 December. My honourable friend the and colleges or funded as an apprentice already exists Minister for Africa spoke to President Kiir on 5 December. within the 16 to 18 funding formula. The formula has In both conversations, we stressed the need for progress two elements which provide disadvantaged learners on Abyei and the UK’s long-term commitment to with a funding supplement. These are the funding stability and security in both northern and southern linked to the disadvantage uplift within the formula Sudan. and that for additional learning support. Details of Asked by The Earl of Sandwich the 16 to 18 funding formula for schools and colleges for 2010-11 can be found on the website of the Young To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment People’s Learning Agency at http://readingroom. they have made of the voting rights of the Miseriya ypla.gov.uk/ypla/funding rates and formula v2.2.pdf seasonal migrants in the referendum in Abyei. and that for apprenticeships on the Skills Funding [HL5297] Agency website at http://readingroom.skillsfundingagency. bis.gov.uk/sfa/Aprenticeship-funding-requirements- Lord Howell of Guildford: We remain very concerned 2010 11-v1.pdf. by the lack of preparation for the Abyei referendum For the 2010-11 academic year, the funding for including the lack of agreement on voting rights. We disadvantage and ALS was £561 million within the continue to support the work of Thabo Mbeki as he 16 to 18 budget of £7,503 billion. For the 2011-12 hosts tasks between north and south to discuss the academic year this will increase by over one-third to Abyei region and wider comprehensive peace agreement £770 million, within a budget of £7,612 billion. In issues. WA 415 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 416

Asked by Baroness Tonge make direct representations to the Government of Turkey concerning the difficulties facing United To ask Her Majesty’s Government what safeguards Kingdom Anglicans there. [HL5454] will be put in place if there is to be increased trade with Sudan to prevent United Kingdom companies becoming complicit in human rights abuses and to The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth ensure that marginalised communities benefit from Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): We do not plan to make such representations to the Turkish Government. the trade. [HL5469] However, our embassy in Ankara continues to raise the issue of respect for all religious minorities in its Lord Howell of Guildford: There is no question of wider discussions on human rights. this Government prioritising commercial links over the very real and pressing human rights concerns that Asked by Lord Patten we continue to have about Sudan. We encourage British companies to be aware of the impact of their investments To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to abroad. With non-governmental organisations and other the Written Answer by Lord Howell of Guildford development partners, we closely monitor the human on 15 December (WA 202), whether they will make rights situation in Sudan. direct representations to the Government of Turkey concerning the difficulties over worship facing United Asked by Baroness Cox Kingdom Roman Catholics in Antalya. [HL5455] To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the concern of the Ngok Dinka Lord Howell of Guildford: We do not plan to make leaders in Abyei over the failure to date of any such representation to the Turkish Government. However, provision for a referendum and a unilateral declaration our embassy in Ankara continues to raise the issue of of secession before 9 January 2011; and what respect for all religious minorities in its wider discussions representations they will make to all parties concerned on human rights. on preventing an escalation of conflict in response Asked by Lord Patten to the situation. [HL5524] To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further Lord Howell of Guildford: We are aware of the to the Written Answer by Baroness Hanham on issues raised by the Ngok Dinka leaders. We remain 15 December (WA 202), when they last drew those concerned about the tensions in Abyei and the lack of facts about freedom of worship in the United Kingdom progress towards an Abyei referendum. to the attention of the Turkish authorities directly, rather than through European Union channels. We continue to support the work of Thabo Mbeki [HL5456] as he hosts talks between North and South Sudan to discuss the future of Abyei. We urge both parties to find a way forward within the framework of the Lord Howell of Guildford: The Government have comprehensive peace agreement. not discussed freedom of worship in the United Kingdom with the Turkish authorities. However, our embassy in Asked by Lord Alton of Liverpool Ankara regularly raises the issue of religious freedom in Turkey with its Turkish counterparts. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the stability of Abyei and other border areas of Sudan in advance of the January Turks and Caicos Islands 2011 referendum; what information they have about the level of arms and capacity for violent confrontation Questions in disputed areas; and what discussions they have Asked by Lord Jones of Cheltenham had with international partners about the situation. [HL5556] To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the impact on the economy of Lord Howell of Guildford: We remain concerned at the Turks and Caicos Islands of the imposition rising tensions in Abyei and lack of progress towards of Direct Rule; and whether they are aware of any the Abyei referendum. We continue to support the research demonstrating a link between the state of work of Thabo Mbeki as he hosts talks between north that territory’s economy and the current rate of and south Sudan to discuss Abyei. We urge both suicides. [HL5271] parties to find a way forward within the framework of the comprehensive peace agreement. The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): There is little current Turkey or historic economic data on which to make an accurate assessment. Questions The economy of the Turks and Caicos Islands Asked by Lord Patten continues to be badly affected by the loss of construction activity since the global financial crisis began in 2008 To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to and the secondary impact this continues to have across the Written Answer by Lord Howell of Guildford other economic sectors. Construction of luxury real on 15 December (WA 201–2), whether they will estate for overseas buyers was the main engine of WA 417 Written Answers[10 JANUARY 2011] Written Answers WA 418 growth in the economy during the past decade, but and Caicos Islands Government. The department is supply far outstripped demand during this period. now reaching the final stages of putting the package in There was also an unsustainable expansion of the place, which it intends to be at or near zero cost to the public sector during the same period. Visitor numbers UK Government over the medium term. have, however, increased significantly over the past Asked by Lord Jones of Cheltenham two years following a small drop in numbers during 2008. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their We are not aware of any research linking the state assessment of the reasons for the increase in court of the economy with the number of suicides. cases in the Turks and Caicos Islands since the Asked by Lord Jones of Cheltenham imposition of Direct Rule; and whether there are sufficient legal officers in the territory to deal with To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assistance the increased workload. [HL5275] they are giving to the people of the Turks and Caicos Islands to counteract the rise in unemployment and social unrest since the imposition of Direct Rule. [HL5272] Lord Howell of Guildford: The question does not state whether it refers to civil or criminal cases, or Lord Howell of Guildford: The UK Government are both. But there are no comparative data in the Turks taking a number of measures to help the Turks and and Caicos Islands on this issue. Although the islands’ Caicos Islands Government provide a stable economic authorities could gather and analyse such data, this environment that will lead to improved employment could be done only at disproportionate cost. prospects for those out of work. Two new lawyers have recently joined the Attorney- The labour department in the Turks and Caicos General’s chambers with a third due to begin work in Islands is in constant dialogue with the major employers the new year. Of these three lawyers, one has been within the territory to explore further employment assigned to civil work, one to criminal and the third opportunities for the people of the islands. will join the criminal law team. Further recruitment We have not seen a rise in social unrest since the will be necessary to ensure that the workload can be elected Government in the Turks and Caicos Islands dealt with efficiently. was suspended in 2009. Asked by Lord Jones of Cheltenham Asked by Lord Jones of Cheltenham To ask Her Majesty’s Government what advice To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have given to legal officers in the Turks and they have made of the ability of the Turks and Caicos Islands on how to deal with cases involving Caicos Islands to recover from the decline in their citizens with mental health difficulties; and whether economy since the imposition of direct rule with or following the imposition of direct rule such persons without (a) a loan, or (b) a direct stimulus from continue to be housed and treated in countries with HM Treasury. [HL5273] specialist care facilities. [HL5276] Lord Howell of Guildford: To recover from its economic decline the Turks and Caicos Islands Government need to meet the challenge of providing a stable economic Lord Howell of Guildford: There is mental health environment. This means the establishment of robust legislation in place covering the issue. No advice on and transparent public financial management processes, how to deal with offenders who have mental difficulties and a strengthening of the Turks and Caicos Islands has been given to legal officers in the Turks and Caicos Government’s capacity to manage their public finances. Islands. Ten patients from the Turks and Caicos Islands The Department for International Development are being treated on a permanent basis in Jamaica. has provided a chief financial officer to the Turks and The Ministry of Health is recruiting a psychiatrist Caicos Islands Government, to meet the urgent task and consideration is being given to converting an of addressing their structural deficit and putting them existing facility into a care facility for those with on a course towards a sustainable fiscal surplus in the mental health difficulties. financial year 2012-13. In addition, the department is reaching the final stages of putting in place a medium-term Those individuals with mental health problems who financial package for the Turks and Caicos Islands. are committed to prison are seen on a regular basis by nursing staff and a visiting psychiatrist. Those requiring Asked by Lord Jones of Cheltenham longer-term treatment and care may be sent overseas To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their as required. The Turks and Caicos Islands Government assessment of the likely cost to HM Treasury of are considering holding a mental health workshop assisting the Turks and Caicos Islands to recover in 2011. from the decline in its economy since the imposition Asked by Lord Jones of Cheltenham of Direct Rule. [HL5274] To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many Lord Howell of Guildford: In his statement to people are engaged in the Turks and Caicos Islands Parliament of July 2010 my right honourable friend special prosecution team investigating alleged the Secretary of State for International Development corruption; how they were recruited; and how many announced that his department would provide a are residents of the Turks and Caicos Islands. temporary package of financial support for the Turks [HL5359] WA 419 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 420

Lord Howell of Guildford: There are approximately The estimated budget for the SIPT for financial 40 staff currently employed on the special investigation year ending March 2011 is £5,208,750. The budget and prosecution team. None are residents of the Turks includes all costs associated with running the investigation, and Caicos Islands. The investigators are for the most including accommodation and IT. The budget is funded part experienced former detectives from the UK police. by the Turks and Caicos Islands Government. This is a reflection of the size of the investigation and As charges are brought and cases advance towards the number of extremely serious and interlinked allegations trial, the size and therefore the costs of the investigation of corruption, misconduct in public office and money team will decrease substantially.Furthermore the eventual laundering that were recommended for investigation recovery of the proceeds of crime is a central aim of by the commission of inquiry and that have come to the investigation. light after the commission reported. Asked by Lord Jones of Cheltenham For the most part, the investigators have been provided by specialist recruitment firms. They are all employed, To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether elections after open competition and interview, on three-month will take place in the Turks and Caicos Islands in renewable contracts. Short-term contracts have been 2011; and whether they have any proposals to bar used to give the senior management team maximum those under investigation over alleged corruption flexibility, and to ensure that each member of staff is from standing in these elections. [HL5362] retained only where there is a clear business case for Lord Howell of Guildford: I refer the noble Lord to his or her services. the Written Ministerial Statement made on 9 December Asked by Lord Jones of Cheltenham about the timing of elections in the Turks and Caicos Islands (Official Report, col. WS 56-58). To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether appropriately qualified residents of the Turks and The issue of who will be eligible to stand for elected Caicos Islands were able to apply to join the special office is being considered as part of the constitutional prosecution team investigating alleged corruption. and electoral reform exercise. [HL5360] Uganda Lord Howell of Guildford: The Special Investigation Question and Prosecution Team (SIPT) consists of a mix of Asked by Lord Alton of Liverpool investigators, financial investigators and lawyers. The To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment investigation is exceptionally complex and involves they have made of the attacks on journalists and work with law enforcement authorities in several other media employees in Uganda during the first ten countries. It requires investigators who are highly months of 2010, including cases of torture, arrest, experienced in this field. The investigation is also detention and judicial sanctions; and what discussion highly confidential. they have had with the Government of Uganda The special prosecutor has explained in public that about the provision of free speech in Uganda. it was not possible to recruit local attorneys or to [HL5516] contract with them to provide legal advice. This was not because the local Bar lacked expertise. Rather, it The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth was a consequence of the fact that the legal profession Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): We have concerns is relatively small, that the investigation is wide ranging about administrative and legal curbs on freedom of and that it was preceded by a commission of inquiry. expression in Uganda, in particular the draft Press Most of the law firms on the islands would be unable and Journalism Bill, and the reports of difficulties to provide legal services to the SIPT because they are faced by journalists. However, we were encouraged by already advising persons or entities that are the subject the recent ruling of Uganda’s Constitutional Court of investigation. Legal advice on local law and procedure that abolished the crime of sedition and quashed 14 is provided by the Turks and Caicos Islands Attorney- outstanding charges of sedition brought against journalists General’s chambers. and opposition politicians. Asked by Lord Jones of Cheltenham Our high commission in Kampala regularly discusses issues relating to freedom of expression with the To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is the Government of Uganda and has raised the draft Press monthly cost of the Turks and Caicos Islands special Bill with the Ugandan Minister for Information. We prosecution team investigating alleged corruption; will continue to urge Uganda to ensure that any new what has been the total cost since the start of the legislation strikes an appropriate and legitimate balance investigation; whether they have made an estimate between regulation and protection of the right to of the likely total cost of the investigation and freedom of expression. possible resulting prosecutions; and whether this cost falls upon HM Treasury or the Turks and UK Investment: Foundation X Caicos Islands’ budget. [HL5361] Question Lord Howell of Guildford: The Foreign and Asked by Lord Myners Commonwealth Office covered the initial costs of the To ask Her Majesty’s Government when ministers Special Investigation and Prosecution Team (SIPT). in HM Treasury and the Cabinet Office last met or These were approximately £660,000 in the financial corresponded with representatives or principals from year ending March 2010. the organisation known as Foundation X. [HL5260] WA 421 Written Answers[10 JANUARY 2011] Written Answers WA 422

The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Universities wanting to charge more than a £6,000 Sassoon): HM Treasury officials were last in contact annual graduate contribution will have to demonstrate with Lord James of Blackheath on 13 December 2010, what more they will do to attract more students from to reiterate that Lord Sassoon does not intend to disadvantaged backgrounds through outreach activities, pursue the issues he raised regarding the purported targeted scholarships and other financial support. This organisation known as Foundation X. Treasury Ministers will include a requirement to participate in the new have had no meetings with anyone claiming to represent £150 million national scholarship programme. This an organisation known as Foundation X. work will be further supported by the £2.5 billion Cabinet Office officials last corresponded with those pupil premium to turn their school-based achievement associated with an organisation referred to by Lord into success at university. James as Foundation X on 19 November 2010, to Participation in higher education has improved in acknowledge receipt of an email. The Leader of the recent years—in 2008-09, 88 per cent of young entrants House of Lords met with Lord James and an associate to full-time degree courses in England were from state of Lord James on 26 July 2010. schools. However, there is more to do. Access will remain a focus for all institutions, which will continue Universities: Admissions to submit a widening participation strategic assessment to the Higher Education Funding Council for England. Questions Universities charging above the £6,000 threshold will Asked by Lord Willis of Knaresborough draw up a new access agreement with the director of fair access, who will expect most from those whose To ask Her Majesty’s Government, following the records show they have furthest to go in securing a passing of the Higher Education Act 2004, how diverse student body. On 6 December, we published many universities were instructed by the Office for draft guidance to the director of fair access setting out Fair Access to change their admission policies to our expectations on how he might approach the approval ensure fair access. [HL5372] and monitoring of universities’ new access agreements. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Henley): The Office for Fair Access (OFFA) Universities: Grants does not have powers to instruct universities to change Question their admissions policies. Universities are responsible for their own admissions policies and decisions. Asked by Lord Willis of Knaresborough OFFA’s role is to safeguard access to higher education for under-represented groups. OFFA does this by To ask Her Majesty’s Government what was the approving and monitoring access agreements—agreements total grant for teaching awarded to English universities in which universities set out their tuition fee limit, by the Higher Education Funding Council for England their plans for targeted bursaries and other financial in each of the years 2005–06 to 2009–10. [HL5373] support and, in many cases, additional outreach work for under-represented groups. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Evidence to date strongly indicates that the introduction Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs of higher fees in 2006-07 has not had a detrimental (Lord Henley): The Higher Education Funding Council effect on participation of disadvantaged students from for England (HEFCE) awarded the following amounts low-income backgrounds and other under-represented in recurrent grant for teaching, including widening groups. On 7 December, the Government published participation for each of the financial years requested: early draft guidance setting out the coalition’s expectations of how the Director of Fair Access might approach 2005-06 £4,259,260,000 the approval and monitoring of new access agreements 2006-07 £4,171,281,000 from 2012. 2007-08 £4,355,355,000 All universities are required, as a condition of receiving 2008-09 £4,499,182,000 a widening participation allocation, by the Higher 2009-10 £4,599,425,000 Education Funding Council for England, to produce Source: HEFCE Annual Report and Accounts. Widening Participation Strategic Assessments (WPSAs). A WPSA must include a statement on admissions policy showing how the university will ensure transparency, consistency and fairness. Universities: Intellectual Property Asked by Lord Taylor of Warwick Question To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans Asked by Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts they have to encourage top universities to enrol more state school students. [HL5545] To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to the Written Answer by Baroness Wilcox on Lord Henley: The Government are establishing a 23 November (WA 323), what discussions they have new framework, with increased responsibility on had with the University of Manchester concerning universities to widen participation and with greater the application of Intellectual Property Office guidance government investment in improving attainment and to the research which led to the development of the access for young people from disadvantaged backgrounds. new material graphene. [HL5504] WA 423 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 424

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, during the redrafting process of the National Action Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Baroness Plan on Women, Peace and Security, published on Wilcox): There have been no discussions with the 25 November; and what plans exist to integrate University of Manchester on the application of Intellectual provisions relating to the implementation of United Property Office guidance to the research that led Nations Security Council Resolution 1325 in Northern to the development of the new material graphene. Ireland into the National Action Plan. [HL5471] Manchester University has a professional team with a track record in commercialising the results of research. Lord Shutt of Greetland: Discussions during the redrafting of the national action plan took place between NIO officials and officials from the Foreign and Visas Commonwealth Office, Government Equalities Office and the Northern Ireland Executive. There are no Question plans to integrate provisions relating to the implementation Asked by Lord Laird of UNSCR 1325 in Northern Ireland into the national action plan. To ask Her Majesty’s Government when Taimour Abdulwahab al-Abdaly last entered the United Young Offender Institutions: Social Kingdom; on which country’s passport; what was Workers the duration of any visa required; and when and where it was issued. [HL5237] Question Asked by The Earl of Listowel The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Neville- Jones): UK government agencies and Swedish authorities To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many of are co-operating in ongoing investigations and it would the social work posts in young offender institutions be inappropriate to comment on the details of Taimour are vacant; and what steps they are taking to reduce Abdulwahab al-Abdaly’s activities. the levels of vacant posts. [HL5496] The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord Women: Peace and Security McNally): There is a statutory duty on local authorities to provide social work services to children in need. It is Question a matter for local authorities how they choose to fulfil Asked by Baroness Tonge these duties. In 2005, a number of dedicated social worker posts in young offender institutions (YOIs) To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to were established by a centrally funded pilot scheme; the Written Answer by Lord Shutt of Greetland on since this funding came to an end in 2009, the provision 8 December (WA 70), what discussions the Northern of social work services has been determined on a case Ireland Office had with other government departments by case basis at a local level. Monday 10 January 2011

ALPHABETICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN STATEMENTS

Col. No. Col. No. Armed Forces: Medical Services ...... 185 International Development...... 191

Civil Law Reform Bill ...... 185 Ireland: Financial Assistance ...... 191

Department for Communities and Local Government..... 186 NHS: South West...... 191

Health: Influenza...... 188 Public Disorder: Royal Car...... 192

Monday 10 January 2011

ALPHABETICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN ANSWERS

Col. No. Col. No. Afghanistan...... 361 Economy...... 378

Agriculture: Theft...... 361 Egypt ...... 378

Alcohol...... 361 Embryology ...... 379

Anti-Semitism...... 362 Energy: Carbon Reduction Commitment ...... 380

Armed Forces: Education ...... 362 Energy: Electricity ...... 380

Azerbaijan ...... 363 EU: Accession Fund...... 381

Banking ...... 364 EU: Currencies ...... 381

Banking: Bonuses ...... 365 EU: Financial Stability ...... 381

Banking: Royal Bank of Scotland...... 367 EU: Scrutiny Reserve...... 382 EU: Stability Fund...... 383 Banks: Lending...... 368 European Financial Stability Mechanism ...... 383 Belize ...... 369 European Union ...... 383 Benefits...... 370 Falkland Islands ...... 384 British Overseas Territories...... 371 Financial Services Authority...... 384 Burial Act 1857...... 372 Flooding ...... 385 Business Travel: Private Car Allowance...... 372 Food: Halal Meat ...... 385 Care Homes...... 373 Framework Convention for Protection of National Care Homes: Allowances ...... 373 Minorities ...... 385

Contingent Liabilities ...... 374 Fuel Poverty...... 386

Criminality Survey 2000 ...... 374 Gaza ...... 386

Crown Prosecution Service: Equality...... 374 Government Departments: Non-Executive Directors ...... 388

Cumbria: Earthquake ...... 375 Gypsies and Travellers ...... 388

Democratic Republic of Congo ...... 375 Health: Cancer...... 388

Disabled People: Access to Work ...... 376 Health: Cardiology ...... 389

Disabled People: Independent Living...... 377 Health: Midwifery...... 392 Col. No. Col. No. Health: Policy ...... 393 NHS: Restructuring...... 406

Health: Preventive Health...... 393 Northern Ireland: Equality Commission and Parades Commission...... 406 Health: Research...... 394 Northern Ireland: Women...... 406 Higher Education: Funding ...... 394 Parking Fines...... 407 Higher Education: Tuition Fees ...... 395 Pensions...... 407 Holocaust Memorial Day ...... 396 Police and Crime Commissioners...... 408 House of Lords: Life Peerages...... 396 Prisoners: Education...... 408 Houses of Parliament: Legislation...... 397 Prudential Regulatory Authority ...... 410 Housing: Homelessness ...... 397 Public Assets: Sales...... 411 Iceland: Fin Whales ...... 397 Republic of Ireland: Financial Support ...... 411 Immigration: Detention...... 398 Russia ...... 412 India ...... 398 Schools: Faith Schools...... 413 Inflation...... 399 Schools: Pupil Premium...... 413 International Labour Organisation: Domestic Work ...... 399 Spending Review 2010 ...... 414 International Space Station...... 400 Sudan...... 414 Iraq...... 400 Turkey...... 415 Israel...... 401 Turks and Caicos Islands ...... 416 Israel and Palestine: West Bank ...... 402 Uganda...... 420 Kenya ...... 402 UK Investment: Foundation X ...... 420 Local Government: Funding ...... 403 Universities: Admissions...... 421 Lord’s Resistance Army ...... 404 Universities: Grants ...... 422

Migration Advisory Committee...... 404 Universities: Intellectual Property...... 422

National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence ...... 404 Visas ...... 423

NHS: Ambulance Trusts...... 405 Women: Peace and Security ...... 423

NHS: Reform...... 405 Young Offender Institutions: Social Workers...... 424 NUMERICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN ANSWERS

Col. No. Col. No. [HL4409] ...... 383 [HL5156] ...... 367

[HL4845] ...... 398 [HL5158] ...... 365

[HL4874] ...... 414 [HL5163] ...... 362

[HL5002] ...... 370 [HL5167] ...... 366

[HL5055] ...... 364 [HL5187] ...... 413

[HL5067] ...... 376 [HL5198] ...... 361

[HL5085] ...... 411 [HL5224] ...... 402

[HL5099] ...... 381 [HL5225] ...... 386

[HL5105] ...... 372 [HL5226] ...... 401

[HL5118] ...... 361 [HL5227] ...... 401 Col. No. Col. No. [HL5228] ...... 401 [HL5345] ...... 383

[HL5229] ...... 401 [HL5346] ...... 403

[HL5234] ...... 412 [HL5347] ...... 403

[HL5237] ...... 423 [HL5359] ...... 418

[HL5240] ...... 383 [HL5360] ...... 419

[HL5257] ...... 384 [HL5361] ...... 419

[HL5260] ...... 420 [HL5362] ...... 420

[HL5261] ...... 364 [HL5364] ...... 371

[HL5263] ...... 382 [HL5371] ...... 395

[HL5266] ...... 397 [HL5372] ...... 421

[HL5271] ...... 416 [HL5373] ...... 422

[HL5272] ...... 417 [HL5374] ...... 394

[HL5273] ...... 417 [HL5375] ...... 395

[HL5274] ...... 417 [HL5388] ...... 413

[HL5275] ...... 418 [HL5407] ...... 372

[HL5276] ...... 418 [HL5410] ...... 380

[HL5279] ...... 363 [HL5414] ...... 374

[HL5280] ...... 412 [HL5415] ...... 397

[HL5283] ...... 413 [HL5420] ...... 362

[HL5286] ...... 377 [HL5423] ...... 399

[HL5288] ...... 377 [HL5424] ...... 378

[HL5291] ...... 411 [HL5425] ...... 367

[HL5293] ...... 369 [HL5426] ...... 368

[HL5295] ...... 396 [HL5427] ...... 384

[HL5296] ...... 414 [HL5428] ...... 402

[HL5297] ...... 414 [HL5429] ...... 403

[HL5298] ...... 404 [HL5431] ...... 410

[HL5307] ...... 398 [HL5437] ...... 392

[HL5308] ...... 399 [HL5438] ...... 379

[HL5310] ...... 363 [HL5439] ...... 400

[HL5311] ...... 363 [HL5440] ...... 380

[HL5313] ...... 368 [HL5442] ...... 396

[HL5315] ...... 367 [HL5443] ...... 389

[HL5332] ...... 408 [HL5444] ...... 390

[HL5334] ...... 386 [HL5445] ...... 390

[HL5335] ...... 387 [HL5446] ...... 390

[HL5341] ...... 400 [HL5447] ...... 390

[HL5343] ...... 365 [HL5448] ...... 390 Col. No. Col. No. [HL5449] ...... 381 [HL5501] ...... 409

[HL5450] ...... 374 [HL5502] ...... 410

[HL5454] ...... 416 [HL5503] ...... 410

[HL5455] ...... 416 [HL5504] ...... 422

[HL5456] ...... 416 [HL5507] ...... 407

[HL5457] ...... 378 [HL5508] ...... 407

[HL5458] ...... 378 [HL5511] ...... 404

[HL5459] ...... 394 [HL5512] ...... 404

[HL5460] ...... 374 [HL5513] ...... 372

[HL5467] ...... 387 [HL5514] ...... 385

[HL5469] ...... 415 [HL5515] ...... 388

[HL5470] ...... 406 [HL5516] ...... 420

[HL5471] ...... 424 [HL5517] ...... 379

[HL5472] ...... 399 [HL5520] ...... 373

[HL5476] ...... 370 [HL5521] ...... 373

[HL5477] ...... 371 [HL5524] ...... 415

[HL5478] ...... 371 [HL5525] ...... 405

[HL5479] ...... 407 [HL5536] ...... 375

[HL5480] ...... 408 [HL5544] ...... 385

[HL5481] ...... 376 [HL5545] ...... 421

[HL5482] ...... 397 [HL5546] ...... 388

[HL5483] ...... 397 [HL5549] ...... 361

[HL5486] ...... 388 [HL5553] ...... 406

[HL5487] ...... 381 [HL5556] ...... 415

[HL5488] ...... 404 [HL5564] ...... 393

[HL5494] ...... 392 [HL5565] ...... 406

[HL5495] ...... 392 [HL5566] ...... 405

[HL5496] ...... 424 [HL5567] ...... 393

[HL5497] ...... 385 [HL5568] ...... 386

[HL5500] ...... 408 [HL5574] ...... 384 Volume 723 Monday No. 90 10 January 2011

CONTENTS

Monday 10 January 2011 Introductions: Baroness Kramer, Baroness Wheatcroft, Lord Lexton...... 1161 Deaths of Members; Lord Windlesham and Lord Strabolgi Tributes ...... 1161 Questions EU: Budget ...... 1165 UN Women ...... 1167 Equality: Act of Settlement...... 1169 Schools: League Tables...... 1172 Budget Responsibility and National Audit Bill [HL] Order of Consideration Motion ...... 1174 Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill Committee (7th Day)...... 1174 Blood and Blood Products Statement ...... 1229 Health: Parkinson’s Disease Question for Short Debate...... 1239 Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill Committee (7th Day) (Continued) ...... 1253 Written Statements...... WS 185 Written Answers...... WA 361