THE BIG INTERVIEW Episode Number: 208 Episode Title: Alan Alda Description: Hollywood's Mr. Nice-Guy Alan Alda opens up about playing the villain, his long career, unusual upbringing and what he's most passionate about now: science.

TEASE:

ALAN ALDA (as Hawkeye on M*A*S*H) You know, we ought to do it someday -- throw away all the guns and invite all the jokers from the North and the South in here to a cocktail party... DAN RATHER (VOICE OVER)

TONIGHT...ON THE BIG INTERVIEW... ACT 1 ALDA People would say to me, "Oh, is it hard for you to play a Republican?" 'Cause they had this idea that I was some kind of arch liberal. And I thought, "No - nobody ever asks me if it was hard to play an axe murder."

RATHER (VOICE OVER)

TELEVISION LEGEND AND HOLLYWOOD’S MR. NICE GUY, ALAN ALDA ALDA (as Hawkeye on M*A*S*H) Is this liver or am I changing a tire?

RATHER (VOICE OVER)

FAMED FOR PLAYING ARMY SURGEON HAWKEYE PIERCE ON M*A*S*H ALAN ALDA IS NOW IN THE UNUSUAL POSITION OF TEACHING NEW SKILLS TO MEDICAL STUDENTS... ALDA I began to realize that I could probably be helpful with scientists helping them communicate better because there were things I knew as-- as an actor that could be transferred to them.

RATHER (VOICE OVER)

EMMY, OSCAR, TONY & GRAMMY NOMINEE ALAN ALDA...TONIGHT ON THE BIG INTERVIEW. ACT 2 ALDA (as HAWKEYE PIERCE on M*A*S*H)

1 Hey Dish, look, clean that up for us, will ya? Put some section in there. Give me a clamp. ACTRESS PLAYING NURSE Clamp ALDA (as HAWKEYE PIERCE on M*A*S*H) Wanna play a little doctor after we’re finished? RATHER (VOICE OVER) IF YOU KNOW NOTHING ELSE ABOUT ALAN ALDA, YOU PROBABLY KNOW HIM AS HAWKEYE FROM THE GROUNDBREAKING TELEVISION SERIES M*A*S*H. ALDA (as HAWKEYE PIERCE on M*A*S*H) I happen to be an officer only because I foolishly opened an invitation from President Truman to come to this costume party... RATHER (VOICE OVER) THE DRAMATIC COMEDY ABOUT AN ARMY SURGICAL TEAM IN THE KOREAN WAR RAN FOR 11 SEASONS ON CBS. THE FINAL EPISODE STILL HOLDS THE RECORD FOR MOST WATCHED AMERICA TELEVISION PROGRAM EVER - NOT INCLUDING SUPER BOWLS. ALDA WON FIVE EMMY AWARDS FOR HIS WORK ON THE SERIES, NOT ONLY FOR HIS ACTING, BUT ALSO FOR WRITING AND DIRECTING. MASH, THOUGH, IS ONLY A SMALL PIECE OF ALDA’S CAREER… HE APPEARED ON BROADWAY IN THE 1960s, EARNING A TONY NOMINATION FOR BEST ACTOR IN A MUSICAL FOR “THE APPLE TREE”… ALDA (singing from The Apple Tree original cast album) Now I could swear that it’s a fish… RATHER (VOICE OVER) THAT WOULD BE THE FIRST OF THREE TONY NOMINATIONS OVER THE YEARS…. AND IN 2005 HE EARNED AN OSCAR NOMINATION FOR HIS SUPPORTING ROLE IN MARTIN SCORSESE’S FILM ABOUT HOWARD HUGHES: THE AVIATOR… ALDA (as Senator Ralph Owen Brewster in The Aviator) It isn’t me, Howard. It’s the United States government. We just beat Germany and Japan. Who the hell are you? UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR’S VOICE (from The West Wing) Senator! RATHER (VOICE OVER)

2 NOT TO MENTION HIS CRITICALLY PRAISED AND EMMY-WINNING ROLE ON TELEVISION’S THE WEST WING... BUT ALDA CONSIDERS HIMSELF A WRITER FIRST AND FOREMOST. IN ADDITION TO SCRIPTS FOR THEATER, TELEVISION AND THE MOVIES, HE IS THE AUTHOR OF TWO BEST-SELLING MEMOIRS. AND THERE’S ANOTHER PASSION --- SCIENCE. ALDA (on Scientific American Frontiers) Hello and welcome to Scientific American Frontiers. I’m Alan Alda. RATHER (VOICE OVER) FOR OVER A DECADE, HE HOSTED THE PBS SERIES “SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN FRONTIERS.” ALDA (on Scientific American Frontiers) Is it really accelerating? What do you mean “accelerating”? RATHER (VOICE OVER) HE BROUGHT A PERSONABLE AND OFTEN HUMOROUS APPROACH TO A SUBJECT THAT WAS TRADITIONALLY SEEN AS TECHNICAL AND FORBIDDING... ALDA (on Scientific American Frontiers) Yeah, then you broke it up with hydrogen and then you ground it up into a powder and that’s what you got here? SCIENTIST (on Scientific American Frontiers) You’re the expert now... RATHER (VOICE OEVR) LATELY, ALDA HAS STARTED TO USE HIS INTIMATE KNOWLEDGE OF ACTING AND COMMUNICATION SKILLS TO HELP SCIENTISTS RELATE THEIR IDEAS TO ONE ANOTHER, AND TO THE PUBLIC AT LARGE... ALDA (working with medical students) Communication is a two way street. If it’s only one way, if it’s just me telling you what I think I know, I’m spraying information at you. RATHER (VOICE OVER) TO THAT END, HE HELPED FOUND THE ALAN ALDA CENTER FOR COMMUNICATING SCIENCE AT STONY BROOK UNIVERSITY IN NEW YORK WHICH IS WHERE I SAT DOWN WITH HIM.

3 RATHER Well, here I am with one of the best actors, writers, directors of his time, what-- what am I doing interviewing him in a science lab? What's (LAUGH) that about? You just well come clean with the audience. ALDA Yeah, well, I'm really interested in science-- I have been all my life. And once I started interviewing scientists on-- on television. I must have interviewed about 700 of them over a period of about 11, 12 years, I began to realize that I could probably be helpful with scientists helping them communicate better because there were things I knew as-- as an actor and as a communicator myself that could be transferred to them in unusual ways-- they're very unusual ways. But they work. So I spend a lot of time or have spent a lot of time in labs like this. RATHER Why? What does it matter? ALDA You know, it matters a great deal. It matters to us, who are not scientists, and it matters to science itself. The public doesn't understand scientific jargon, and if scientists only speak to us in that jargon then we're not really gonna be able to understand what they're trying to do. We put people in office who decide whether or not to fund science. Then the scientists go and talk to the people in Congress. They often don't understand the science, either. So why should they fund science that they don't understand? Why should you give any-- I wouldn't buy something I didn't understand. And then, beyond that, when scientists are talking to other scientists who aren't in their exact specialty, if they don't make it understandable to them, they're not gonna be able to collaborate very well. And most of the-- most of the scientists working today are looking forward to collaborations across disciplines because they can get great stuff done that way. But that all involves better communication; and we're all on the short end of the stick if-- if communication stays clogged. ALDA (in improve exercise with med students?) See, the idea is you’re reading each other’s minds by getting little clues from the way the person’s moving their body… RATHER (VOICE OVER) HERE ALDA IS WORKING WITH A GROUP OF MEDICAL STUDENTS. HE’S GUIDING THEM THROUGH A SERIES OF IMPROVISATIONAL THEATER GAMES - PERHAPS MORE FAMILIAR TO ACTORS THAN TO SCIENTISTS. ALDA Just pass a sound around, first of all. Just one sound, just any sound. Make up a sound a pass it around.

4

STUDENTS speaking gibberish ALDA Onomottabonga! Alright! Good, good! ALDA What these games do is put you in contact with the other person you’re playing with so that then when you turn to somebody else, whether it’s an audience hearing you talk or a patient, you fall into contact with them in a very personal way. There’s an intimate relationship between the two of you. RATHER Were you particularly good in science when you were in school, in high school-- ALDA No, I was particularly bad in science. But I was always interested in it. In those days, you had to break glass pipettes with your fingers before you could do the experiment, before you could pour stuff in them. I would cut my fingers on the glass and be covered with bandages and I couldn't-- (LAUGHTER) I couldn't even get into the experiment, I was no good at the glass works. And then I couldn't understand the-- the basics. RATHER Well one reason I was eager to talk to you about this. I took both chemistry and physics, was a terrible student in both of them, I'm sorry to say, but I was always glad I took them because it at least gave me-- a thin baseline, if you will, to understand science. ALDA I-- I sort of-- had to-- teach myself, what little I know about-- about chemistry and physics and other hard sciences-- because I never came into contact with people who could energize me with their own passion-- I'm not sure they had that passion, and-- and if they did, they didn't know how to inject me with it. I know there are-- there are millions of people out there like me in the general public who really would like to know more about it, but-- but they need somebody to look them in the eye and talk to them, person-to-person, that I had when I was on television, interviewing scientists. They weren't interviews in the normal sense; they were just conversations. And I really wanted to know, I wanted to learn and I grabbed 'em and shaked 'em sometime (LAUGH) to say, "I don't get it, what are you talking about?" And-- and we became two real people to each other, and then-- and it the wasn't just information passing between us, it was understanding, it was, "Do ya really get it? Do you know what I'm saying” That kinda thing. Unless they can do that, it's not gonna go between 'em. RATHER

5 What is The Flame Challenge? ALDA The Flame Challenge is a contest I started for scientists and it came from my own life, because when I was 11 years old, I wondered what a flame was and I asked a teacher and she said, "It's oxidation," and that's all she said. (LAUGH) And I-- it was just calling it another name, you know? A flame is-- Fred, that's it, that's all I'm gonna tell you. (LAUGH) So-- a couple of years ago, I-- I remembered that-- that desire to know that I had. And so, I said-- "How 'bout if we start-- a contest for scientists to explain what a flame is to that an 11-year-old can understand it? And the contest will be judged be real 11-year-olds." And last year, we had 20,000 kids who signed up to be judges through their teachers. And-- hundreds of scientists. I think this year, we're gonna have-- a lotta scientists, 'cause we're really-- we're really putting the word out to them. And they try as hard as they can to be clear and accurate and not-- not tell-- not just tell too many jokes and-- and sort of cloud the issue. One kid said this wonderful thing once. He said, "You know, we really-- we really want information. We wanna understand this. It's okay to be funny, but ya don't have to be silly about it." And he said, "We're 11, we're not seven." RATHER (LAUGH) I love it. Well, you said that this desire to know that you had at age 11, from where did that curiosity come? ALDA I don't know. My-- I think my father was curious-- he-- although he started in burlesque and-- and became an actor in the movies and on Broadway, he-- he-- he had gone to-- Stuyvesant High School in New York, which you-- you had to be pretty smart to get into. RATHER Right. ALDA And his favorite book was Men in White, about discovering microbes. So I may get it-- genetically. I don't know. I'm just very curious. RATHER (VOICE OVER) ALDA’S FLAME CHALLENGE COMPETITION HAS NOW BEEN HELD THREE YEARS IN A ROW. THIS YEAR NEARLY 27 THOUSAND STUDENTS FROM AROUND THE WORLD WILL JUDGE HOW WELL SCIENTISTS CAN CLEARLY AND THOUGHTFULLY ANSWER THE QUESTION: WHAT IS COLOR?

RATHER

6 What happened to the idea (NOISE) that every person who got a university degree or a full, four- year college degree, had to have at least a year or two of what we call "hard science"? That's pretty much gone by the boards. ALDA Yeah, yeah. I-- I don't know. It's-- it's interesting; we seem to go by fits and starts and spurts. I mean, n-- now there's-- there's-- efforts to-- to promote what they call "stem education," which is the sciences. RATHER Science, technology-- ALDA Engineering-- RATHER --engineering and math. ALDA --yeah. And then, by the same token, now people who are worried about the humanities say, "Well, you got all that attention over there, what about the humanities?" Why aren't they all mixed? Why-- why can't we learn one through the other? There was a time in-- among the Greeks, when "rhetoric" covered everything. RATHER Right. ALDA And you didn't divide the world into science and humanities. There's a good-- there's a good reason to-- to some extent, go back to that, to-- to educate both-- both interests equally in-- each in the other and through the other. Because we can-- there's-- the human brain works that way. ALDA (working with medical students) Okay, what’s your name ROSS (medical student) Ross. ALDA Ross. Ross is gonna sell us something -- in gibberish. And we’re gonna figure out -- come over here and do it from here - we’re gonna figure out what he’s selling us. Don’t call it out; let’s just see if we get the idea.

7 ROSS talking in gibberish ALDA Okay, what’s he selling? MEDICAL STUDENTS Soap. ALDA What is it? Soap, is it soap? Great! Good. Okay… The reason we do so much improvising is we’ve come to see that it’s foundational, that there’s something about the experience of improvising a lot, actually there’s something about improvising just a little that opens you up to another person... RATHER At the government funding level, we all know they’re cutting way back on research, basic science research, when you talk to scientists, what do they say about this? ALDA Well, they're-- they're upset because research that has already been set in motion has to be curtailed or cut back-- sometimes, you can't finish a study by cutting it in half halfway through. You can't-- you'd have to-- start with a new study. Careers are going to be affected by these severe cutbacks. The-- the things that we need to be-- to keep up with the other countries around the world, in physics and chemistry and all-- all the-- sciences that require funding, that's not gonna happen. We're gonna fall behind. RATHER We're gonna lose our leadership. We're not in a position of world leadership. ALDA Yes, yeah, well-- well, yeah, I think other countries in some areas are still-- we still win a lot of prizes, so that's-- that's good. I mean, we have a lot of-- but we-- but when we-- we train people here and send them back to their countries, which is another odd thing that we do. RATHER Very odd. ALDA But the-- the scientists I know feel it very keenly that-- that they have just arbitrarily been cutback in their funding. But all the more reason why they have to communicate to the funders why it's in the funders' interest; why it's in the interest of their constituents, why it's in the

8 interest of the country. You know, there was-- a physicist called Bob Wilson, who-- gave a testimony-- a senator said, "Will this help us with national security? Will it help us save our country?" And he said-- "No. But it'll make our country worth saving." RATHER What an answer. ALDA Yeah.

ACT 3 RATHER (VOICE OVER) THE SEEDS OF ALAN ALDA’S ACTING TALENT WERE SOWN EARLY. HIS FATHER, ROBERT ALDA, WAS ALSO AN ACTOR… ALDA (as Hawkeye Pierce on M*A*S*H) Over… ROBERT ALDA (on M*A*S*H) and under… RATHER (VOICE OVER) FATHER AND SON APPEARED TWICE TOGETHER ON M*A*S*H... ALDA (as Hawkeye Pierce on M*A*S*H) Huh? Are we great? We’re great!! ROBERT ALDA (on M*A*S*H) Yeah, we’re a team. I should’ve broken my arm an hour ago. ALDA (as Hawkeye Pierce on M*A*S*H) An hour ago I would’ve broken it for you. ROBERT ALDA (singing in Guys and Dolls) Luck be a lady tonight... RATHER (VOICE OVER) PERHAPS ROBERT ALDA IS BEST KNOWN FOR CREATING THE ROLE OF SKY

9 MASTERSON IN THE ORIGINAL STAGE PRODUCTION OF GUYS AND DOLLS…HE WON A 1951 TONY AWARD FOR HIS PERFORMANCE… HE ALSO PORTRAYED COMPOSER GEORGE GERSHWIN IN THE HOLLYWOOD FEATURE RHAPSODY IN BLUE... ROBERT ALDA (as George Gershwin in Rhapsody in Blue) You don’t have to say anything; I know it isn’t any good...

RATHER (VOICE OVER) BUT ROBERT ALDA FIRST MADE A NAME FOR HIMSELF IN THE WORLD OF BURLESQUE… TOURING THE COUNTRY WITH LITTLE ALAN IN TOW...IN WHAT SOME MIGHT CONSIDER A LESS THAN WHOLESOME ENVIRONMENT... RATHER I'm interested and I ran across this phrase and for someone in our audience, I hope they'll forgive me using the phrase; said that your father was a quote, "tit singer." ALDA Yes, that was the official title for his job. RATHER What is that? ALDA Well, he would sing while the chorus girls paraded half naked. And-- so that's-- that was-- the-- people who did that-- had, you know, were called tit-- tit singers, that was the name that they were given; it was like a job title. But he was also known as-- one of the best or the best-- of straight men in the business, the guy who stands next to the comic and helps the comic. You have to really know comedy to be a good straight man, because it's not the punch line that makes it funny, it's the build up to the punch line. RATHER It's the set up. ALDA It's the set up, and you gotta do that exactly right. You gotta know timing, it’s like the guy who holds the ballerina up so she can do the-- he-- he's in that thankless position of holding the comic up. RATHER (LAUGH) Well, as a child, and you-- I know you moved around with your family--

10 ALDA Yeah. RATHER --where were you ALDA I wa in the back seat --or in the trunk. (LAUGH) I was standing in the wings, watching burlesque, watching-- that was my first-- maybe three or four years of my life. I was standing in the wings, watching the strippers, the chorus girls and especially the comics. I-- I-- I really learned a lot watching-- I think you learn about the theatre in the most effective way. You learn better that way than watching from the audience or talking about it or-- maybe even taking lessons in it, although everybody should study. RATHER But then you went into acting. Now with so many children-- one, their parents don't want them to go in the same field that they, their parents, are in. And two, the children often say, "Listen, I've seen too much," but that was not the case with you. ALDA No, I really wanted to-- to be an actor. I wanted to be a writer before I wanted to be an actor, and all my life, tried to-- be as good a writer as I could. Unfortunately, never studied either one formally-- I was afraid that if I studied acting that-- an acting teacher would destroy my natural genius. (LAUGHTER) Then I-- after about 15 years, I was really a much better actor and had dropped most of my unpleasant mannerisms, which made up the large part of my creative genius, (LAUGH) the mannerisms, you know? So I-- it wasn't-- it wasn't a bad idea to drop them. It woulda been good to drop 'em earlier. RATHER Well, did you feel yourself in competition with your father? Did you-- ALDA Yes, yes. RATHER Yeah, tell me about that. ALDA Yeah, well, I-- I think that happens a lot with boys and their fathers. It's a competitive feeling. He was a very handsome leading man; he was confused with Cary Grant a lot when-- we would walk down the street and-- and you can't get much more handsome than that. And I avoided playing leading men parts in the beginning because I didn't wanna be in competition with him, 'cause he had that field sewn up. (LAUGH)

11 So I started as a kind of eccentric comedian--Then, there came a point in a my life where I had to be the leading man. I mean, that was the part that I would be case in commonly. And I had to accept that mantle, in a way. And by that time, I-- I wasn't as competitive with him. RATHER Well, we've talked about your father, what about your mother? ALDA My mother, unfortunately, was schizophrenic and paranoid and-- I felt most of my life was not what I hoped a mother would be-- it was later, I realized, that she really, really loved me and gave me a lot of support-- told me I could do anything that I wanted, you know, would-- helped me have aspirations. But also-- told me that I was trying to kill her from time to time. She was paranoid, you know, she-- she heard voices and-- was suspicious of everybody around her. And-- and-- it-- so it's hard to grow up with a mother who thinks you're trying to kill her. So-- I have way more compassion for her now that I understand that it wasn't her fault, that she was mentally ill. And that-- that's-- that was something that was not easy to understand at the time because nobody talked about it. My father and I never discussed her mental illness. RATHER Different era. ALDA Yeah, yeah, way different. RATHER What did you learn from that? Or perhaps, was-- was that the making of you in some important way? ALDA Well, I-- I can't believe it wasn't in some-- Freudian way. There-- there must have been things that I went through that shaked me. I'll tell ya one thing that I think I'm aware of that I'm conscious of, most of it is probably-- stuff that I'm not conscious of. But something I do remember is that I had to observe her very carefully to know what was actual reality and what was her reality. Because she would say, "See those cracks on the wall? They have cameras in there and they're taking our picture." And if you're very young, you think, "Is this-- is that true? Or-- or do I have to make an allowance for the fact that she doesn't see things the way other people do?" So I think that helped me to become a good observer, which helps-- when ya write and it helps when you act. You-- also, opens you up to what's really happening. And what's really happening is essential to observe when you're acting or communicating. Whatever is really going on between us-- you know, before I got into that, I would bore people

12 with stories and notice-- I would not notice they were yawning while I was talking. (LAUGHTER) It's kind of an obvious clue that you're not getting through. But to pick up on the signals is so much better and-- and I think I got better at that; I had something to work from because I had to observe her (UNINTEL) so well. RATHER Well, you said you studied acting, not so much in classes, you-- you were determined to be as good or better than your father, tell me about that. How do you study acting? Do you stand in front of the mirror? Do you-- ALDA No, that's not a good idea to stand in front of a mirror. 'Cause then you deal with the externals of it. I would read a lot about it-- the great acting teachers like Stanislavski and Boleslavsky and others. But the thing that really changed me, that really made me a better actor and changed me as a person was improvising. And when I spent about six months in-- in an improvisation class run by Paul Sills, who started Second City, but didn't teach the kind of comedy improvising that they did at Second City. He taught what his mother had invented, which is theatre games, which are improvisational games that lead to real connection, real creativity, real presence, real listening, real observation. These things are the bedrock of that kind of improvising and it's all in game form. And it brings the real you out and that's what I teach scientists now 'cause if they can make a warm, personal connection, with the people they're talking with or the people they're writing for suddenly, you have something that goes back and forth between them and isn't just a question of spraying information at them. RATHER Well, I'm particularly interested in hearing you say that. As you know, I came out of a print reporter's background, radio and then into television. And I got into television, particularly, the anchoring part of it, they spoke to me about, "Dan, it's all about getting through the glass." ALDA Mmm. RATHER There has to be some connection; otherwise, it-- it doesn't matter what you say. ALDA It's true, you do-- you-- you have to have that presence, you have to-- be aware that there's somebody at the other end of your communication, even when all there is is a lens that's what we have to do, is we have to connect. RATHER Well, speaking of connecting, you connected-- did you ever connect in the role of Hawkeye on the great, some think the greatest television series ever MASH.

13 ALDA Thank you. RATHER How did you do that? ALDA I just jumped into it because-- as-- as though it were an improvisation. Because I really didn't feel that character was anything like me, and I thought to myself, "How the hell am I gonna play this?" And when I think that, that's usually when I do my best work, because I really have to allow everything to change and not do it the way I've done it before, the way somebody else has done it before. Like-- I have no idea how to do it, I'm-- I'm in clover. So there-- there-- was a moment when, after ten days of rehearsal, we're getting ready for my first shot, I'm supposed to walk out of the shed and walk across the compound, it's a silent shot, I'm just walk-- walking across the compound. And I'm thinking, "I'm all dressed up. I got the boots on, I got the uniform on, I still don't know how I'm gonna be this guy." And I hear, "Quiet on the set." It's-- it's not coming to me. (LAUGH) And then they get the clapper boards, scene one, take one, action. And there's a nurse coming toward me. And I just grabbed her around the waist and gave her a hug and she hugged me back and I thought, "I'm the guy, that's not so hard." (LAUGH) RATHER And not a bad line of work. ALDA (IN MASH) Hello, you beautiful day! Oooh. Sometimes you gotta throw back some of the young ones.

ACT 4 ALDA (MASH MONTAGE) I say he should be sedated every hour on the hour. I swear I heard a bugle. We gotta get up tomorrow morning anyway and fix MacArthur’s hernia. Come on, Mary... RATHER Well, you not only-- acted the role of Hawkeye, you became Hawk-- Hawkeye in the minds and hearts of so many people, but you eventually wrote and directed-- some of the series. ALDA I did, I wrote a lot of it; I directed about 35 episodes and I wrote 19 or 20. So I-- I was-- I was able to learn how to be better at the things I did while I did MASH. I got better as-- an actor, as a writer, as a director, so it was a wonderful laboratory for me. And the success of the show freed

14 us all to-- to let our imaginations go, and we-- we-- we told stories frequently that were really unusual ways to tell stories,

RATHER Give me an example. ALDA Well, once-- one that was-- really successful was-- where with the-- the camera played the part of a soldier, so you saw the whole story through his eyes, and when people talked to him, they talked right to the lens. ALAN ALDA (IN MASH) Hi there I’m Captain Pierce. What do you think of me so far? OK now just relax I only want to look under your bandage. Army regulations, you could be hiding a Jeep. ALDA And-- only what he saw was what the audience saw, from the time he was wounded on the battlefield until he was out of surgery. ALAN ALDA (IN MASH) These charts come in hand, you know? Everybody oughta have one. Anybody asks you how you’re doing you don’t have to answer, you just show them your chart. So how you doin’? Oh, wise guy, huh? ALDA And that-- and then-- I did-- I did a show that I really liked a lot, that I wrote-- about the dreams of the people, but they weren't dreams of wish fulfillment, they were nightmares of frustration, that they couldn't save the people they were trying to operate on and that kind of thing. So there was a very-- it was both imaginative and-- and kind of heavy at the same time. ALDA (IN MASH) Nooooo! ALDA But they let us do that; the audience let us try things out and-- and not be-- funny and silly all the time, knowing that we'd come back the next week, giving them what they were more used to. RATHER Could that happen today? ALDA

15 I don't think the whole thing could happen today. I mean you don't get a big audience today, they cancel you by the first commercial. You know? (LAUGH) You don't see the second half of the show, practically. RATHER Well, but wasn't MASH, or was it, a success almost from the very beginning? ALDA No, it wasn't, we did not-- do well the first season. We were at the bottom of the ratings. I used to boat, "Oh, you know, we're in the top 78." (LAUGHTER) 'Cause we were down at the bottom. But then, at the end of the first season-- the audience had seen the hit shows and now they started to sample us in the reruns and they seemed to like it. And then-- by the second season, we were doing pretty well. RATHER Well, while you were doing MASH-- MASH was set, after all, in the Korean War-- ALDA Yeah. RATHER --but the Vietnam was still-- ALDA Was still on. RATHER --still on. Did you worry-- we're talking about the Korean War when the Vietnam War's on the front page of every newspaper? ALDA: No, I was a little naive about it. I thought it was about the Korean War. That's-- you know, what we had-- costumes, medical equipment from that period, vehicles from that period. However-- Larry Gelbart, who wrote most of the fi-- shows for the first four years-- was really using Korea- - to stand in for Vietnam. And I-- I didn't really realize it. I was really only concerned with the-- the research we had done on Korea. RATHER Well, one could extrapolate then that the audience got it, with the Korean-- ALDA I guess they-- yeah. But-- some-- some people have said, "Oh, you helped to end the Vietnam War--" just a few people have said that. But I-- I don't think so. I-- I think we more reflected

16 what was in the-- the-- the country and the-- the zeitgeist at the time. I don't think we affected it that much. I think-- I think television can amplify things; I don't know if they get them started. RATHER Any fears then, since or even now that you'll always be identified with that role, people see you and say, "Hawkeye?" ALDA They do. But I was lucky that I played a lot of different characters, even while we were doing the show. I-- I made some movies where I got to be known as an actor and not just as that character. RATHER (VOICE OVER) ALDA COMPLETED 7 “MADE FOR TV” MOVIES AND 5 HOLLYWOOD FEATURES DURING THE YEARS HE WAS ON MASH. TIME AND AGAIN, HE WAS CAST IN THE ROLE OF THE NICE GUY -- THE MAN AUDIENCES SOMEHOW FELT THEY COULD TRUST. ALDA (IN SAME TIME, NEXT YEAR) Helen’s got the decorating bug now. I have this mental picture of her at my funeral, as they’re closing the lid to my coffin throwing in two fabric swatches and yelling “Which one do you like?” JANE FONDA (IN CALIFORNIA SUITE) Tell me what else do you do to keep that winsome adolescent look. ALDA (IN CALIFORNIA SUITE) You’re just dying to make a little fun of me, aren’t ya? No, I don’t mind I’ve got an hour to kill. Would you believe I run 5 miles every morning? JANE FONDA (IN CALIFORNIA SUITE) After what? ALDA (IN CALIFORNIA SUITE) After a good night’s sleep. ALDA (IN FOUR SEASONS) I don’t want to let this afternoon disappear without something to remember it by, some memorial of our affection for one another. CAROL BURNETT (IN FOUR SEASONS) Yeah, terrific, just don’t wave your arms, OK?

17 ALDA (IN FOUR SEASONS) This is for all of you so that we never forget this day. ALDA I think I got to be known more as my own self than any of the characters I played. 'Cause I'd go on television and cover people with the slime of my affability and-- (LAUGH) and that sort of registered on people I think. RATHER Now why did you use that phrase, "the slime of your affability"? ALDA Well-- I-- it's-- 'cause it's funny. (LAUGH) RATHER Well, it is funny. (LAUGHTER) No, but it tells me that you're a little sensitive about that, of being seen as always as the nice guy. ALDA Oh, I-- well, yeah, I-- but that's it, see? I mean, I am-- I am affable. So if it-- lodges in people's minds that I'm therefore, not able to play other kinds of people, that wouldn't be helpful to be as-- as an actor. And it-- it-- what's really funny about that is I-- at least half the time, if not more, I played very flawed or really bad people. Almost every time I do it, somebody says, "Well, you've never done that before." (LAUGH) And I-- I've done it many times. And it's fun. It's fun to play a really bad guy. I mean, I think we all have many kinds of people in us and we have many-- attributes, so some of us-- I have a flash temper. I-- I get angry and I-- curse a mile a minute driving down the highway. RATHER Hey, this is bulletin material. Alan Alda has a temper? (LAUGH) I think people see you as-- as a person who never loses his temper. ALDA I'd watch that talk if I were you. (LAUGH) RATHER You delivered that villainous line pretty well-- had me checking my (UNINTEL). (LAUGHTER) ALDA No, the thing is, we all have a lot of people in us, and I think the job of the actor -- this is the way

18 I look at it, is to find that person in you. 'Cause it comes with the texture of real life. If it's just a stereotype, if you just find one aspect to do, it doesn't have the full, fuzzy texture of a real person, whereas, if it comes out of some part of you that really is that person, but drags along some of the other stuff that's you, too, it's a unique version of this-- this character. So-- but-- I mean, I always wanted to play Hitler and I never got-- now I'm too old to play Hitler. RATHER Well, what villain or bad person did you play that you really liked and you thought you did a good job? ALDA Oh, I loved-- I loved the part in The Aviator. ALDA (IN THE AVIATOR) So by your admission, in this chamber Mr. Hughes you have received $56 million from the US government for planes you never delivered. LEONARDO DICAPRIO (IN THE AVIATOR) That is correct. ALDA (IN THE AVIATOR) Well excuse me for asking Mr. Hughes, but where did all that money go? LEONARDO DICAPRIO (IN THE AVIATOR) It went into the planes Senator... RATHER For those who haven't seen it, in The Aviator, you play the role of what? ALDA A senator called Brewster, who was totally corrupt and-- was out to get Howard Hughes and tried to destroy him in a Senate hearing. ALDA (IN THE AVIATOR) Alright this has gone on long enough, Juan Tripp is a great American. He’s airline advanced the cause of commercial aviation in this country for decades. Juan Tripp is a patriot. Juan Tripp is not a man interested in making money. ALDA One of the nice things about playing a bad guy is that you-- you can take on some of the power that the bad guy has and it-- it gives you a sense of confidence and well being. I-- I just-- a couple of weeks ago, did-- a couple of scenes on The Blacklist, where I had-- I was torturing James Spader--I had-- James Spader hanging from the rafter. And I tell ya, for several days after

19 that, I had a tremendous sense of confidence, I just felt like (LAUGH) doors would open for me. RATHER I dunno what some psychologists or psychiatrists might say about that. ALDA Well, you know, when I was-- when I was younger, I noticed that when I played a person who had a positive ability--that I didn't have-- after I played it for a few weeks, I could actually-- I found that I had that ability in life, either the confidence or the ability to talk my way out of something or something like that. I wouldn't take on the negative ones, and I don't take on the negative ones now. I was kidding. I swear to God. (LAUGH) RATHER Pretty convincing when you swear to God. ACT 5 ALAN ALDA (WEST WING) President can’t give me the job I want. VOICE (WEST WING) What one? ALAN ALDA (WEST WING) His. It is with great humility I accept your nomination for the President of the United States. TV REPORTER (WEST WING) Sen. Vinick has always been opposed to gay marriage. ALAN ALDA (WEST WING) Always opposed. VOICE (WEST WING) Still sore? ALAN ALDA (WEST WING) Feels like it’s going to fall off. VOICE (WEST WING) Here you go, five thousand more handshakes til the election. ALAN ALDA (WEST WING)

20 How could I be always opposed to something I never heard about until a couple of years ago? RATHER Well, on The West Wing ALDA Yes. RATHER You played a not very attractive character, at least by some people’s ALDA Oh, well I always thought… RATHER ...estimation. ALDA

You see, that’s the other thing, you have to take the character’s point of view. I thought he was very attractive. If I played Hitler, I’d think he had the right to do what he did. That’s the thing, you not only have to want what the character wants, you have to feel you deserve it because it’s not-- people aren't good or bad all-- altogether. Mother Theresa does a lotta good-- good work or did a lotta good work, but she was probably also a pain in the neck. She really wanted to get what she wanted and she got it. RATHER Well, I don't wanna be self-serving here-- ALDA You-- you've had lunch with her? Yeah. RATHER --I met her, talked to her, and-- she had a temper. ALDA She had a temper? Now there's a girl after my heart. RATHER Particularly, when it came to raising money for her cause. ALDA

21 Yeah, what-- she would get mad at you if you didn't give her money? RATHER Certain people. ALDA Ahhh, see? See what I mean? RATHER Well, but she used it-- in a saintly fashion. ALDA Yes, yeah-- well, it was-- overall, it was probably good for people that she-- that she could do that. RATHER Well, on The West Wing, you were the Republican candidate for President-- ALDA Right, right, which I had no p-- problem with it. He had-- he had good arguments for why he believed in the things he believed in. People would say to me, "Oh, is it hard for you to play a Republican?" 'Cause they had this idea that I was some kind of arch-- liberal. And I thought, "N-- nobody ever asks me if it was hard to play an axe murder." RATHER (LAUGH) Ah, but playing a Republican Presidential candidate-- ALDA That that, they thought, would be hard. RATHER Well, let's talk about this, you've raised it-- there is that view held by some people, I'm sure I'll hear from some of 'em after this program-- that you are the classic, bleeding heart liberal, that's among the better things they’ve said, if-- if not indeed (LAUGH) some near bomb-throwing Bolshevik or something, let's talk about it. ALDA Oh-- well-- RATHER Are you a lifelong Democrat, liberal? ALDA

22 I probably-- well, so here's the first part is I don't talk about politics in public anymore, 'cause for ten years, when I wasn't in front of the camera, I was trying to get the Equal Rights Amendment passed, and I-- I believe, still believe deeply in-- that I wish we had it-- wish we had an amendment to the Constitution, to protect that everybody without regard to gender or sex. And-- I guess that convinced a lot of people that I would be l-- liberal in my philosophy all the way down the line. But I do-- I really enjoy trying to think independently and to think critically about things. And I'm as critical of-- things on the liberal side as I am on the conservative side very often. But-- that doesn't mean that after thinking about things really carefully and weighing things and being-- thinking as independently as you can, that you don't often vote the same way. (LAUGH) RATHER I take your point. You don't wanna get-- you-- you did spend ten years speaking out for the Equal Rights Amendment-- ALDA Yeah, yeah. RATHER --and you were seen as-- a poster boy, poster man, I would say-- for the feminist movement. ALDA Yeah, yeah. RATHER Is that all behind you or are you still depicted-- ALDA No, well, it's just part of not talking about politics in public so much, but I-- I'm-- I-- I still believe fiercely in-- in equality and-- and-- and I get-- I get pissed when I see that-- that women are-- are-- don't get an equal chance. I was talking the other day with-- a scientist who did a survey, she did-- a study, and she sent out-- what do you call it? CVs-- resumes, to department heads, scientific department heads. "Would you hire this person? How much would you pay this person?" The resumes were identical, except for the name. One version had a male name, the other version had a female name. And what she found was that they would be offered jobs less frequently if the female name was on the-- on the-- resume, and they would be offered less money if they were hired, if-- if they were, you know, thought to be hirable. The scientist's reaction to this was, "This can't be true, because we're scientists and we're objective." (LAUGHTER) That's an odd reaction. I-- don't know how many said that, but t there's no question that it's embedded in our culture. And even among scientists who-- whose job it is to be objective-- can be biased. Not everybody, but it's-- but it's-- enough that it's-- skewed this study toward the men, favorably toward the men. RATHER

23 Well, right now, as we sit here today, what do you burn with hot, hard passion? ALDA You know-- I burn with hot, hard passion for a lotta things. I burn with hot, hot passion for a happy time with my wife. And we-- make each other laugh all the time, spend all day together. We-- we work often in the same room, in the same office, but we send each other emails (LAUGHTER) from across the room, 'cause I don't wanna distract her when she's working on her book. But-- I'm really passionate about where we're sitting now, about helping scientists communicate better and I spend a lotta time on that. I spend-- maybe most my time on that; either developing new ways to do it, figuring out strategies to get other universities involved, going to universities, doing workshops with them. And-- going out, speaking and raising money. That I see it work even makes me more passionate, so I'm-- I'm really excited about this. And then-- then there are my other passions that I've had all my life-- acting, writing. I-- I spend a lotta time doing that. RATHER Well, among the things you and I share, we don't share,we're both married to creative, artistic women and we've been married for more than 50 years. ALDA Yeah. How-- how long are you married? RATHER 58 years. ALDA Oh-- oh, so I finally met somebody married two years longer than me. RATHER (LAUGH) Well-- you know, flowing out-- the question always is, "What's the secret?" And I'll tell ya my-- answer-- ALDA What is your answer, yeah? RATHER My answer is-- if there's a secret, I don't know it-- ALDA Oh-- well--

24 RATHER But I'd be interested-- ALDA I bet I have your answer, too. (LAUGH) My answer is, we love each other, try that. RATHER Although, I did get myself in trouble. RATHER I appeared on The Wendy Williams program ALDA Yeah. RATHER And she asked me, "What's the secret to being married so long?" ALDA Yeah. RATHER And in a moment of trying to be flip and trying to please, I said-- "A squeaking bed." ALDA Oh, wait-- wait a minute. (LAUGHTER) That can have so many interpretations. What-- which one did ya have in mind? RATHER Well, I can only tell ya, the one Jean Rather had in mind was-- was not to my advantage. (LAUGHTER) ALDA What was the conversation like when ya got home? RATHER What-- what conversation? (LAUGHTER) ALDA Oh, that's funny, that's great.

25 ACT 6 RATHER (VOICE OVER) ALAN ALDA HAS WRITTEN TWO BEST-SELLING MEMOIRS...NEVER HAVE YOUR DOG STUFFED (AND OTHER THINGS I’VE LEARNED) AND THINGS I OVERHEARD WHILE TALKING TO MYSELF. ALAN ALDA (FROM AUDIOBOOK THINGS I OVERHEARD WHILE TALKING TO MYSELF) It was in that thick quiet that I heard a question move forward from the back of my head. “So tell me,” the voice asked “are you living a life of meaning?” RATHER (VOICE OVER) THE AUDIOBOOK VERSION OF THE LATTER EARNED HIM A GRAMMY NOMINATION IN 2008. RATHER Among your many other accomplishments, you have the books. ALDA Oh, yes, yeah. RATHER But in your books, you ask some pretty serious questions. ALDA Yeah RATHER Pretty serious questions of yourself and of others. So lemme go down a short list-- ALDA Okay. RATHER --and see where you are in answering these big, life questions at the moment. ALDA Okay. RATHER What do you value?

26 ALDA Yeah, that's-- that's a hard question because-- well, the question that you asked is-- is not-- not that hard a question. I value-- I value the well being of other people, especially people close to me. I value intelligence; I value laughter. And they're all tied together. You can't-- you can't be funny without being intelligent, and you can't increase people's well being without applying intelligence and a sense of humor to them. So they're-- they're kind of-- they're toward the top of my list. But the trouble with values is, that everybody says, "Fight for what you believe in, have strong values and fight for them." Well, that's what terrorists do. And if that's the whole thing-- have values and-- and really work to see them-- see them through-- that doesn't really say much. The-- the harder thing is, "What is the basis of your values? And what are the best set of values to have?" And I dunno if that's true for everybody; everybody has a different bias about that. So it's a really interesting question. RATHER And what are your biases in that regard? ALDA Well-- RATHER The-- the right things to value. You-- you make a good about-- ALDA Yeah. RATHER --it isn't just what you value, it's what are the values? ALDA Yeah, what are the values under the values in a way? It's like the-- what they say about the Hippocratic Oath, first, do no harm. Whatever your values are, it'd be a good idea to check and see if they lead to harm to yourself or other people. RATHER Good point. I hadn't thought of it that way. I wanna-- ALDA I hadn't either; it's a good thing you asked me. RATHER Well I want to think about that for a minute. But as we think about that...what does it mean to

27 live the good life? ALDA (LAUGH) Yeah. That's another tricky question. I mean, the good life is often-- promoted in whiskey ads as a glass of-- bourbon with some ice in it-- or is the good life indiscriminate service to others at the expense of yourself and the people who love you? Doesn't sound so good, either. RATHER No. ALDA You know, politicians (LAUGH) are always-- quitting to spend more time with their family, whom they haven't been introduced to in 30 years. (LAUGHTER) I-- I-- I want to see a politician say, "I've decided to run for the Senate because I wanna spend less time with my family." RATHER (LAUGH) And my wife is trying to get me out of the house. ALDA Yeah, right. (LAUGH) But-- the good life-- is-- is a hard one to answer. I-- I think it-- it has something to do with feeling like you're getting something done that's useful. And again, it goes back to other people, I think. I think-- I think there's a natural tendency that we have to refer to other people as we think about inner progress we're making or progress outside our own heads. If-- if it looks like it's advancing the interest of the people who we think we'd like to help, then-- then there's a feeling of goodness about your life, I think, that comes. And that's-- that's the way I experience it. Everybody experiences it in a different way. RATHER Well that’s the reason it’s a good question. And let the record show, you raised it. That’s the reason I raised it with you. ALDA Yeah, those were questions I was posing to myself. RATHER Well, you-- I think most people, this is my opinion clearly, would like to head a purposeful life, a life of meaning, then it gets down to well, what exactly does that mean to you? What is a purposeful life? ALDA You know, I-- it-- it's interesting, in one of the books I wrote, I asked myself that question and answered it about four different ways, and I gave a con-- conclusive answer each time, this is it.

28 (LAUGH) And-- and one of them was just keeping moving gives you a sense of purpose. You know-- "Look, I'm accomplishing things." But there are-- some moments where ya pull back and you say, "But all I'm doing is moving, you know? Is that really purposeful?" Purpose, meaning, sometimes just comes from noticing life. And maybe we-- maybe there are different meanings. Maybe that's how I-- that's what I've discovered maybe, is that at different times, I feel a sense of meaning in my life in different ways. Sometimes it's just in the moment of connection with family or-- one of those wonderful moments of friendship where you feel that something's gone between you and a friend. When I see a scientist, not just communicating better, but communicating with passion and life that they didn't have before, I feel meaning, 'cause I've helped somebody-- in a very real way. I haven't sent away a check to help; I've given something of myself, something of my own experience that I've lived, that I've thought about, that I've worked with other people on and we've helped somebody improve and they love it. They're happy. That makes me feel like-- there's some meaning in it. So sometimes, it's just noticing that I'm here, smelling the breeze. What's meaning in-- what's the meaning of life for a dog with his nose out the window, smelling the neighborhood? Sometimes that's enough for me. And sometimes, it's really, actually being of service and helping. RATHER If you're going to be remembered for one thing professionally-- ALDA Yeah? RATHER --what would you like that one thing to be? ALDA I real-- I swear to God, I don't care. I-- it doesn't matter to me. I-- I want to be-- remembered with love by the people I love-- the people I'm close to. But when I'm dead, I'm dead. I don't-- why-- why should I care how I'm remembered? I can't-- I won't be able to enjoy being remembered. RATHER Well, not insofar as we know. (LAUGHTER) ALDA Well, that's right. Right. I mean, Marcus Aurelius is the great-- the great-- philosopher and-- and emperor-- said 1800 or 2,000 years ago, "All we have is the present moment; doesn't do us any good to think about previous great achievements and it doesn't do us any good to think about what people will think of us after we're gone, 'cause we'll be dead. All we have is this time now." So that's what I wanna pay attention to. This is such a brief time we have. And sometimes, I think, "Look at us. We act like we're here

29 for a long time, and we think-- we act as though we'll be here forever." And-- and yet, it goes by so fast, and them, boom, that's it. But we don't-- we don't take that into account. We have-- we have a friend who said the other day, "Well, we all know we're gonna die, but not in our lifetime." RATHER (LAUGH) Another good line. I may plagiarize that, as well, if you don't mind. RATHER Alan, what question have I not asked you that I should have asked you? ALDA Oh-- I can't-- I-- I've asked myself all those-- those questions right in the book, no, I can't think of anything. RATHER Thank you. Appreciate it. ALDA Thank you. What-- what a pleasure to talk to you, I really enjoyed it, thank you. RATHER Well, pleasure talking with you. Please give Arlene my best. ALDA I will, and mine to-- RATHER What a lovely lady. What-- how and why she's put up with you for all this-- ALDA Ya never know. Well, it's 'cause I am such a nice person. (LAUGHTER) RATHER (VOICE OVER) AND THAT’S THE BIG INTERVIEW FOR TONIGHT. WE’RE ALWAYS EAGER TO HEAR WHAT YOU HAVE TO SAY SO PLEASE FOLLOW US ON FACEBOOK AND TWITTER OR SEND YOUR COMMENTS TO [email protected]

30