T Y N W A L D C O U R T O F F I C I A L R E P O R T
R E C O R T Y S O I K O I L Q U A I Y L T I N V A A L
P R O C E E D I N G S
D A A L T Y N
S T A N D I N G C O M M I T T E E O F T Y N W A L D O N E N V I R O N M E N T A N D I N F R A S T R U C T U R E P O L I C Y R E V I E W
B I N G V E A Y N T I N V A A L M Y C H I O N E A A S C R U T A G H E Y P O L A S E E Y N E R C O O I S H Y N C H Y M M Y L T A G H T A S B U N – T R O G G A L Y S
DEPARTMENT OF INFRASTRUCTURE
HANSARD
Douglas, Wednesday, 14th November 2012
PP145/12 EIPRC-I, No. 1
All published Official Reports can be found on the Tynwald website www.tynwald.org.im/Official Papers/Hansards/Please select a year: Published by the Office of the Clerk of Tynwald, Legislative Buildings, Finch Road, Douglas, Isle of Man, IM1 3PW. © High Court of Tynwald, 2012 TYNWALD STANDING COMMITTEE, WEDNESDAY, 14th NOVEMBER 2012
Members Present:
Chairman: Mr D M W Butt MLC Mr A F Downie OBE MLC Mr Z Hall MHK
Clerk: Mrs E M Lambden
Business Transacted Page
Procedural...... 3
Evidence of Hon. D Cretney MHK, Minister for Infrastructure and Mr I Thompson, Chief Executive Department of Infrastructure ...... 3
The Committee adjourned at 12.10 p.m.
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Standing Committee of Tynwald on Environment and Infrastructure Policy Review
Department of Infrastructure
The Committee sat in public at 10.30 a.m. in the Legislative Council Chamber, Legislative Buildings, Douglas
[MR BUTT in the Chair]
Procedural
The Chairman (Mr D M W Butt MLC): Good morning, everybody, particularly the Minister, Mr Cretney, and Mr Thompson. Welcome to this Committee. I have a few preambles to do with some slight housekeeping. Firstly, welcome to the meeting 5 of the Environment and Infrastructure Policy Review Committee. I am Dudley Butt MLC and I chair the Committee. With me are Mr Alex Downie OBE MLC, and Mr Zac Hall MHK, and we have with us our Clerk, Mrs Marie Lambden, whom I thank for your preparation for this event. Could you please ensure that mobile phones are not just put on silent but turned off, because otherwise it affects the recording of the Hansard equipment, so I would be grateful if you could 10 turn your phones actually off. Also for the purposes of Hansard, we will to try to make sure that people do not speak together, that people try to speak separately. The Environment and Infrastructure Policy Review Committee is one of three Standing Committees of Tynwald Court established in October last year with a wide scrutiny remit. We have three Departments we cover: the Department of Community, Culture and Leisure; the 15 Department of Food and Agriculture; and the Department of Infrastructure. Today’s session is the second of our routine scrutiny sessions with those Departments. We met with the Department of Food and Agriculture in June, and after today – we meet with the Infrastructure Department – we are due to meet with the Department of Community, Culture and Leisure in February next year. 20
EVIDENCE OF HON. D CRETNEY MHK AND MR I THOMPSON
25 Q1. The Chairman: Can I first formally welcome Mr David Cretney, the Minister for the Department, and Mr Ian Thompson, their Chief Executive. Can I just ask you, for the sake of Hansard, to tell us who you are? Perhaps, Minister, if you could tell us who you are and how long you have been in the Department.
30 The Minister for Infrastructure (Mr Cretney): I am David Cretney. I am Minister for the Department of Infrastructure. I have been in position since following the General Election in 2011.
The Chairman: Thank you. Mr Thompson. 35 Mr Thompson: I am Ian Thompson. I am the Chief Executive of the Department of Infrastructure and formerly the DoT, and I have been here for something approaching eight years.
Q2. The Chairman: Thank you. 40 I wonder, would you just like to, for a few minutes, perhaps give us your overview of how the last year has gone in your Department? If you could perhaps give the Committee some general impressions of how your year has been?
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The Minister: From me first? 45 The Chairman: Please, Minister, yes.
The Minister: The first time I have been involved in… I was never a Member of the Department of Transport. I have been a Member of a number of Departments previously; this is 50 the first time I have been involved in the newly arranged Department of Infrastructure. It is a big Department; it has a lot of challenges. In relation, in particular, to Highways, we have a big task in terms of customer expectation, and with the available resources presently we are not going to be able to always meet customer expectations, so we have to prioritise those. It is a wide-ranging remit: Harbours and Airport; Planning, which obviously touches peoples lives and is 55 important also in terms of the ongoing development of our economy. It is important that the planning process plays its part in that. We are also responsible for local authorities on the Island. There are two Divisions of the Department that are perhaps more high-profile than others, and those are the Operations Division, which carries out the roadworks, and the Highways Division, which obviously, as I indicated earlier, has a high public profile. Amongst the challenges I have 60 had in the last year is trying to make sure that the Highways Division in particular make sure that our customers and those people who fund the work which our Department carries out are properly considered when highway works are undertaken. We have done a lot of work in trying to make sure that businesses are as least detrimentally affected as they can be whilst such work is undertaken, and that is an ongoing piece of work. 65 As I indicated, it is a wide-ranging remit, very important, a lot of money invested into the Island in infrastructure and there has been over a considerable period time. I think that is probably where I am up to at the moment, unless there are any specific questions, which I am happy to answer.
70 The Chairman: We will be asking some specific questions later.
The Minister: Yes.
Q3. The Chairman: Mr Thompson, can I just ask you… You were in the Department when it 75 was the Department of Transport, I believe, (Mr Thompson: Yes.) before the change. You have then assimilated, in effect, DoLGE functions. I am just wondering if you could give us a brief view of how that has worked in the last year, 18 months or so.
Mr Thompson: Thank you, Chairman. 80 It is three years in April, actually, since the transfer took place, and that brought to us… First of all, we lost the Sewerage Division, which went to the new Water and Sewerage Authority, and then we assimilated most of the former DoLGE into DoI, other than the Housing Section and the Environmental Health team, and even with the Housing Section, their operational guys came and joined us. 85 Since then, we have had, obviously, a very well publicised, pretty comprehensive amount of work to do in the planning area, which we have done. We have welcomed the new Director of Planning, we have welcomed the new Head of Health and Safety, so that has been an interesting experience in not only taking those Divisions in, but then putting in, essentially, new managers. After settling down, we then had a change of Minister, and we have not only had a change of 90 ordinary Members, but during the year, of course, we have lost one of our Members to be subsequently replaced by Mr Houghton. I have to say, and I have no reason to say this to you guys, but I find it quite remarkable how Members can walk into a Department and pick up all the issues and cope with them as though they have been there for a long time. I find it really amazing and I have complimented them many times for it. It is not easy to pick up on such a varied 95 portfolio as this Department and make continuity happen, which is what we are about. Your original question was about perhaps the past year and what have we done in that period. The Department is still heavily involved with what was known as the Transformation of Government project, which has, on top of what we have already discussed, brought us the property aspects and the facilities management aspects of most of Government. In fact, as at today, other 100 than the Health estate, all of it now sits with us. The ownership remains with the Departments, but the maintenance obligations, the management of the properties, now sits with DoI, and my team have just risen to the occasion. There has been very little resource transferred with that, but we are doing very well.
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We have got a new unit in the Department, called SAMU, which is a strange name – it is 105 Strategic Asset Management Unit. They have been charged with rationalising Government’s estate, and in the last financial year they hit the target of essentially disposing of assets worth £2 million, which they did, and this year they are ahead of target – they have already achieved £2 million. That will be an increasingly difficult task, obviously, as time goes forward, but the unit is still there and doing a good job. 110 Q4. The Chairman: Thank you. Could I just move on… I will just come to a couple of those points before we move on. There is a perception that maybe, since the DoLGE functions went into your Department – particularly planning and, say, waste management – that the eye has been taken off the ball a bit in those regards and they are not as efficient as they were when they were in 115 DoLGE. What is your view of that?
Mr Thompson: I would not accept that at all.
The Chairman: You would not? 120 Mr Thompson: It would be nice to baseline what that meant, that they were efficient before they came to us, because the throughput of planning applications is now higher. There are fewer applications, because of the marketplace, but in terms of the turnover of them, they are certainly being dealt with more effectively than they were, for a number of reasons – nothing smart, 125 particularly, just closer management and perhaps a different focus for the leaders of the team.
The Chairman: Okay. We will come back to planning, I think, later on. We are going to start off by talking about the Steam Packet User Agreement, if you can give us can us an oversight. 130 Mr Thompson: Yes.
Q5. Mr Hall: Can I just have a couple of questions before that, Dudley? (The Chairman: Yes.) Just touching on a couple of points, the Minister said that the Department… was quoting 135 how big it was. Do you think that the Department is too big and too diverse?
The Minister: No, not necessarily. One piece of work that I have instituted in the last year is a review of the Divisions of the Department to see whether it continues to be best to have an Airports and Harbours Division, and also whether we require to have Operations and Highways 140 Divisions separately. That work is presently being undertaken and Beamans Management Consultants are examining that situation presently, to see if efficiencies could be made if changes are necessary. And so that is one area that I did consider was worthy of a separate piece of work, a separate overview.
145 Q6. Mr Hall: Sure. If I can just turn to Mr Thompson, you say about Members going into Departments and – you found it amazing – picking up everything. Do you not feel the same could be applied to Ministers as well as Members, when Ministers… The Chief Minister’s policy is shuffling Ministers around.
150 Mr Thompson: I am not going to comment on shuffling Ministers around, Mr Hall, but in terms of… Yes, I have had, in my period there, I think five Ministers, and it can be difficult, but we just get on with it. It is a challenge, but the challenge… By ‘Members’, I meant the Ministers and the Members.
155 Q7. Mr Hall: Okay. If we can just turn to the Steam Packet and if you can give us a little bit of an overview of where we are with the Steam Packet User Agreement and the issues. I would like to thank you for publishing the agenda of 5th November, although I do not think it was too informative, but can you please tell us, on those points relating to the Steam Packet and the subsections which were on that agenda to do with ownership, business plan, ships and the 2013 160 schedule. Could you expand on that for the Committee?
Mr Thompson: I have not got the agenda in front of me, so you will have to prompt me, Mr Hall, but first of all –
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165 Mr Hall: I thought that was on the agenda.
Mr Thompson: Yes, sorry, I just cannot remember the details of the agenda.
Mr Hall: Absolutely. The first one: ownership. 170 Mr Thompson: Ownership… Again, the meeting happened… No significance in the date, incidentally, but the meeting happened as planned and the meeting is that kind… It is an update session: where are you with these things? As you know, there have been a lot of challenges for the Steam Packet in their ownership over 175 the years. We were seeking to find out if there have been any changes – to the banking arrangements, in the management of the debt, who the partners were – so we have an understanding of who we are dealing with. At that time, the Steam Packet advised us that they were working closely with their… There is a primary bank, a primary owner – Banco Espirito Santo – but they also have partners, and there has been some churn, as there always is, with those 180 partners. They were not in a position to tell us what that churn was, other than Banco Espirito Santo are still the same lead lender, and we expect to hear from them in the next few weeks about any changes.
Q8. The Chairman: Is that a Portuguese bank? 185 Mr Thompson: Yes, it is a family bank as well.
Q9. Mr Hall: And on the business plan?
190 Mr Thompson: The reason that is there is really to be asking them as to how they see delivery of service going forward. We have two vessels. It is very clear, isn’t it, Manannan arrived as a high-fuel-use vessel at a time when prophecies for fuel were just going up exponentially? Nobody’s fault; that is what happened. They are responding to the requirement to have a fastcraft – and the public would like to have that fastcraft facility, because that came from previous 195 feedback when they have gone to their customers – so it is really enquiring as to how they see the future. What is their view on future delivery reports? All in line with the User Agreement? Are they going to focus on Liverpool? Are they going to focus on Heysham? Status quo? They all seem very obvious questions, but we want to know if there is any change. Because there have been reactions at Heysham, haven’t there, with shifting sands and things like that? Liverpool Ports have 200 made quite a loud proclamation about their proposals for change on both banks of the river going forward, development: how do you see your berthing arrangements changing, or not, into the future? Those are the kind of questions that we have been asking.
Q10. Mr Hall: You say those were the questions you asked – what was their response? What 205 is their view?
Mr Thompson: They were looking to an in-river berth – that was the longer-term plan – because, for instance, as you know… Well, I do not know if you know, but the weekend arrangement is that Ben my Chree goes into Liverpool – and it does not, actually; it goes to 210 Birkenhead, which creates some sort of… It is just another hurdle for them to deal with, and passengers to face, isn’t it, in terms of service delivery? Why can’t it go on to the berth at the Pier Head? Well, it cannot take the Ben and discharge vehicles and the like in the same way; it is a different kind of vessel altogether. So it is those kind of questions, just to get an update as to where they were. 215 Liverpool have told us, Peel Ports, that they have no intention of developing an in-river berth in the location that already had planning permission. They will not be developing that in their future plans – that is a little bit downriver towards where the container base is – and that is understandable in terms of today’s environmental climate when you think about what that would mean: marshalling areas for trucks, buildings for people. You are talking investments of tens of 220 millions, plus, in terms of passenger comfort, they are being delivered to Liverpool docks, not to Liverpool city, which is where people like to be delivered. We are very fortunate we have got an extraordinary package there, where foot passengers particularly are delivered right into the city centre, but whether or not that arrangement can stand… Certainly we know that, at the moment, Peel Ports are content for the arrangement that we have got to stay for the time being. 225
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Q11. Mr Hall: And what about in terms of ships? Is any indication coming from the Steam Packet of… because, of course, you could say the ships are halfway through their life. (Mr Thompson: No, they –) Are they changing them, or…?
230 Mr Thompson: The reason we are chasing this is just to have an understanding about how they see their business plan and how a business case would step up for say rationalising the fleet to not have a fastcraft, to not have the Ben, but perhaps to have a fast ship, a more conventional vessel that travels faster. There are no plans for change at the moment, but it is always good to be on top of where that will be, because the vessels we have got are probably at half life now, and they are 235 maintaining them properly and all of that –
Q12. Mr Hall: Are they?
Mr Thompson: There is no inference that they are not, but in the end we will end up with 20- 240 something-year-old vessels, unless they have an investment plan.
Q13. Mr Hall: Are they looking to extend the User Agreement before investing in any ships?
Mr Thompson: You may recall 12 months ago there was a presentation to Members by the 245 Chairman of the Steam Packet about the difficulties that they had had. There was a discussion about extending the User Agreement and the consensus from the floor was that that would not be an unreasonable discussion to have. That was just an informal discussion. We have always been in a position where we would be willing to discuss anything – of course we are; we are partners – but it needs two parties to change anything. We have no proposals today for change, but discussions 250 are taking place. For instance, ports: part of that discussion we have just had is which ports are you using. The User Agreement specifies areas for ports rather than specific ports, but it talks about the Irish routes as well (Mr Downie: North West.) which are not cost effective, and they have to challenge the User Agreement on things like that because when it was created and today are a different thing altogether. 255 The Minister: All I would add, very importantly, is that if there were to be any changes to the User Agreement ultimately proposed, then they would of course come to Tynwald for approval.
Mr Thompson: Yes, sure. 260 Q14. The Chairman: I would just say the Ben my Chree is 14 years old, is it, in service?
Mr Thompson: Yes.
265 Q15. The Chairman: So that is getting three-quarters of the way towards a 20-year-old ship, isn’t it? So are you saying that they would not invest in a new ship unless they get an extension on the User Agreement?
Mr Thompson: They are not saying that – 270 The Chairman: They are not?
Mr Thompson: – but the vessel is being maintained properly. As ever with anything mechanical, failures happen, but they are very rare. Their success rate, other than the problem we 275 had last year with bow thrusters, has been extremely high, remarkably high – twice a day, same time, both directions – and we have got very used to that, haven’t we?
Q16. The Chairman: But have they indicated to you that they would prefer a User Agreement to be brought in before they invest in a new vessel? 280 Mr Thompson: The User Agreement had provisions for new vessels and I think any investment provisions have more or less been used up in the User… I think there is a small balance, if you talk cash – it would not buy you much, but that is bound to be on the agenda.
285 The Chairman: Okay, thank you.
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Q17. Mr Hall: And the last point there, the 2013 schedule – can you just expand on that, those discussions that you had?
290 Mr Thompson: It is really a formality. They are required to tell us what they are going to do. The User Agreement requires them to do that and have dialogue also with DED – Tourism – and it is just to note that that has been done and that they are about to publish the schedule.
Q18. Mr Hall: What is the current situation in respect of the Irish Sea – the windfarms – and 295 what legislation do you envisage to protect port approaches, an item mentioned in the agenda for the formal liaison meeting?
The Minister: In particular, in relation to the windfarm suggestions that have been put forward – and we do not know which one is going to be first to come forward – on behalf of various 300 Government Departments, I made representation to the organisations involved to let them know that we were concerned about the potential deficient economic impact that they could have in terms of the economy, in terms of the impact on the Steam Packet, if there were too many of them and if they were placed in a particular area which could disrupt the routes. Following on from that, Mr Thompson has recently met with planning officials in the United Kingdom, together with the 305 Director of Harbours, to discuss further those points. I do not know if you want to…
Mr Thompson: Yes. We met the Planning Inspectorate in Bristol – because the issue for us, of course, is recognition – and they kindly listened to our perspective. One of the issues for us is not 310 the particular… For instance, the Walney extension – it is not that in isolation. They have to view it from a perspective of proliferation and the total impact of all the developments and the gas terminals and everything else that is in that piece of sea; not just the particular extension. It is very easy to show the whole Irish Sea with a little lump showing, ‘Here: this is all we are talking about.’ You have to put it in the context of the rest of the Irish Sea. The Planning Inspectorate was 315 very receptive to us. We not only met Sir Michael, who is the head of it, but also the officers dealing with the extensions, and they understood our position. We were able to explain the impact that that would have on a lifeline service if they were to actually cross our sea routes. What we are looking for is something like a five-mile zone. On a nice day, you can sail between the things; it is not a problem. It is when you have got to almost tack because of bad 320 weather that you need, basically a very wide corridor to get through. Those messages were understood. We were then able to go to Trinity House in London to meet the MCA, the Maritime and Coastguard Agency, Centrica, Dong and others, and again put the same case, and they are actually heading this way to do three public consultations at the beginning of December in Port St Mary, 325 Ramsey and Douglas, I think it is. The case we were making was, ‘You must be aware of the bigger picture, not just… It is wrong to sell ‘‘We are just talking about Rhiannon off Anglesey.’’ You have got to understand the impact on everything else.’ And we were well listened to. It is also a chance to eyeball the people, so you actually understand who you are dealing with and what their attitudes are. 330 Q19. Mr Hall: Are any discussions taking place, or have taken place, with Peel Ports? And if at all, how is that, if it is, connected with Douglas outer harbour and the Parade Street redevelopment, or even the wider lower Douglas development?
335 Mr Thompson: We have had discussion with Peel Ports. That was at our invitation. We invited Peel Ports… We went across to see them because I was concerned that I was hearing lots of stuff – and it was media soundbites; you know, ‘Look North West’ telling us that Peel Ports was going to do these developments – and I wanted to particularly know how does the Isle of Man fit into that bright new world for the Mersey. While we were there, obviously we discussed our routes because 340 we are partners – we are at each end of both routes – so we invited them over here to come and see our end of the routes and also we brought the Steam Packet into that meeting so we could have a good round-the-table meeting, and I think you actually asked us a Question about that. There is not another planned meeting. Everybody is agreed that when we need a meeting we will call one straight away. So there is an open door and a very positive reaction, I have to say. 345
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Q20. Mr Hall: What is your view about the Department considering to have a tender for the extension or assignment of the User Agreement, so that there is competition for the market, if not in the market?
350 Mr Thompson: That is a difficult area. I do not believe – we do not believe – that there is a queue of shipping companies wanting to bring vessels into Douglas.
Q21. Mr Hall: Have you tried?
355 Mr Thompson: Most shipping companies do not run vessels that will service Douglas harbour; they are far bigger. (Mr Hall: Yes.) That will be part of the discussion, no doubt.
The Minister: And last year, when there were the issues with the bow thruster, there were suggestions from some parties that we should just, or the Steam Packet should just engage 360 alternative craft from elsewhere, and the point that Mr Thompson makes – that alternative craft are actually larger than the ones that service our port – made that an impossible…
Q22. Mr Hall: Do you think that when you are looking at ships… You are talking about that ships are larger than to be able to use those harbours, but a lot of ships that are now built… in 365 terms of draft, do exceed that, I believe, of Douglas harbour. Do you think that is going to be some difficulty when it comes to replacing the Ben my Chree when you look at new ships that are being built today?
The Minister: In the plans going forward for the harbour, there is work to be carried out in 370 terms of improving the capacity in terms of the draft of a vessel, and it may well be that if the Steam Packet are in a position under the present or under a new ownership in the future and look to invest in a new vessel, it is likely that that would be slightly larger than the present vessel, and as such that work would be required to be undertaken, but it is in our plans anyway.
375 The Chairman: Mr Downie.
Q23. Mr Downie: Regarding the windfarms and so on, I take it the same dialogue that you have had with Peel Ports and all the other interested parties – the Maritime and Coastguard Agency – that has also taken place regarding the progression of our marine spacial plan? 380 Mr Thompson: Yes. In terms of consultation, they are aware. When they were over, we talked to them about what we were doing to give them that picture. They do not particularly have an interest in our marine spacial plan – within our territorial waters, anyway.
385 Q24. Mr Downie: But we do control out to 10 miles, so it is a significant (Mr Thompson: Oh, yes.) part of the Irish Sea and I know there is common ground between south-west Scotland and ourselves – Kirkcudbright, Whithorn, (Mr Thompson: Yes.) that sort of area.
Mr Thompson: Yes, and there is an interesting issue there about the development of that 12- 390 mile limit for windfarms.
The Chairman: Yes.
Mr Thompson: Promotion of them. 395 Q25. Mr Downie: So the question is, then, if we are having discussions, has a case been made for some quid pro quo, where we would accept windfarms being built in a certain area which would prevent us having an adverse effect in our shipping lanes?
400 Mr Thompson: That is to come, Mr Downie. The discussions are very early. They have not even made their application yet and they are not quite sure what the actual turbines will be – what the heights are, the numbers or anything like that – so it is early days and we are in right at the start. We are also discussing, in another forum but with the same people, the impact on the Airport, because we do not want the radar picking up 405 turbines.
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Q26. Mr Downie: No, but it does not seem to present a problem in Liverpool. They are on top of the airport there.
410 Mr Thompson: But they are quite low. (Mr Downie: Yes.) When you are talking about hundreds of metres to the tip of these things, there is a real risk of it creeping into radar.
Mr Downie: Yes.
415 The Minister: If I could just add a little bit in relation to the Isle of Man’s position in terms of offshore wind, I do believe that there are economic opportunities for the Isle of Man, and I think Government recognises that, not only in terms of exporting electricity but also in terms of work which could be carried on on the Isle of Man in terms of servicing windfarms, not only the ones proposed but also any potential future ones. There is an opportunity there for the Isle of Man, so 420 we are not anti-windfarms; we are just trying to make sure that our economy is not detrimentally affected by a proliferation.
Q27. Mr Downie: Yes, I think that is a very valid point, and for us to finish up having half to three-quarters of an hour on every sea crossing, and the additional fuel costs involved in that, to 425 me would be a retrograde step (The Minister: Yes.) because somebody wanted to put a few windmills up across the sea lanes. You have got to balance the two together. That is why I asked the question had there been any quid pro quo offered in the discussions (Mr Thompson: Not yet.) that they would move these things away from our sea lanes, but we would not mind giving a concession further away. 430 Mr Thompson: And the other one is, of course, there is business to be had there in servicing those facilties. They are aware that we are interested in that.
Q28. Mr Downie: There again you make the comment… Could you tell me which port in the 435 Isle of Man could service a windfarm?
Mr Thompson: There is already an organisation that is working with the windfarms, talking to us about what he requires, which is really a platform, a laydown area in our harbour. So that discussion is happening now. 440 Q29. Mr Downie: Well, there is only one harbour that we have got that is (Mr Thompson: Yes.) tidal 24 hours a day, and that is Douglas.
Mr Thompson: Yes, and that is what they are talking about. 445 Q30. Mr Downie: As Mr Cretney said a minute or two ago, they have plans for Douglas harbour, but where is the money coming from? Have you got items in your budget?
The Minister: Yes, there is provision in the budget and it is over an extended period. There are 450 elements of the plans which we inherited when I became Minister which presently are being reviewed, so we are not just taking on board what was there when I came to this position, we are looking to see whether it remains appropriate, but what we are saying is that there appears to be an economic opportunity in relation to servicing of windfarms. We are closer too for the operators and so it would be more convenient and more cost-effective for them, but at the same time it is 455 recognised that, in terms of the draft of vessels, work will be required to be undertaken in Douglas outer harbour.
Q31. Mr Downie: Yes. Perhaps then you could just finish by telling me which Department… whether it is your Department or somebody else that has responsibility for negotiating the 460 renewable energy credits that would be required to give the economic advantage to the Isle of Man, bearing in mind the UK have already put on notice that these are coming to an end.
Mr Thompson: It is not us.
465 Mr Downie: Right.
The Chairman: Okay, can I move on from that?
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Mr Downie: Yes.
470 Q32. The Chairman: Can I just ask Mr Thompson very briefly about the estates shared services? I know it is early days yet, so we will probably come back to this later in the year, (Mr Thompson: Yes.) maybe next year. A couple of concerns have been expressed to me. Firstly, Education: how will you manage your services to deal with Education, who often require work to be done in very short periods of summer holidays or holiday periods? There is a concern that they 475 blitz the work during those periods when the schools are closed. How can you actually cope with that in your Department?
Mr Thompson: The way I understand the question… The way that was structured was that the officer who manages that has come with the work, so what has been left behind is the intelligent 480 client – the owner of the properties, the Director of Estates – and his team, including the manager who has always planned and directed the work and the operatives have come into our organisation. We were very keen to make sure it was seamless and without any disruption, and that is what has happened. The full team are there.
485 Q33. The Chairman: I suppose the question there is where is the saving in that then?
Mr Thompson: As time goes by, as we manage to settle them in, we will be able to consolidate properties, be able to review the workforce – because they have joiners, we have joiners, that kind of thing – and, in the end, merge the workforce, but there will be no wish at all to create any 490 deterioration in service, none at all. We are there to provide a service. What we have got to do is find smarter ways of delivering the same service with less resource.
Q34. The Chairman: A similar question then on behalf of the hospital, in particular Health. They have, I understand, expertise in certain areas, to do with gases and waters and liquids, where 495 they have trained staff specially able to deal with things in the hospital, technical matters. Again, their concern – my concern too – is how you are going to manage those people. If there is a priority within the Department, how will you make sure their priority is acceded to?
Mr Thompson: Things such as medical gases, the engineers, the same structure exists. When it 500 comes, which is now 1st January, it will be a health hub and for the time being absolutely status quo, until we are able to assimilate… We have got the same issue with the Airport. We have specialists in radar and the like, but we equally have people who change lightbulbs, as do the Health Service, so there are obviously synergies there. In terms of the high-level expertise, nobody is going to affect that in any way. What we will be able to do, I hope – when you have high-level, 505 high-quality, highly qualified technicians – is learn from each other. The EBME people in Health will be able to link up with perhaps the radar specialists and share technologies stuff, share training and that kind of benefit, and it also will give resilience perhaps where we can now provide backup for each other. It is a bit obvious, really, that.
510 Q35. The Chairman: I know there are concerns, but I wondered, if you came to us in say nine months’ time, could you demonstrate any cost savings by doing this?
Mr Thompson: That is one of the key drivers of the whole exercise, so hopefully yes. For instance, all organisations have people on standby. Perhaps we do not need three lots of people on 515 standby. Perhaps we can do it with one, as long as we do not damage the skill sets. That kind of thing will bring savings straight away. Rationalisation of estates… There is a project to do with rationalisation of depots and things: we will lose 20 locations. That meets, of course, coming the other way, the scope of Government, whether or not things continue as they are anyway. But we have to drive these projects, and if things change, they change. 520 The Chairman: It is early days yet, so I would be interested in a year’s time to come back and see how that has progressed.
Q36. Mr Downie: Can I ask a question on that, Mr Chairman?’ 525 Obviously, where you can you use your own workforce, but what agreements have you got in place to partnership with people in the private sector so that you can get a proper benchmark between whether what you are doing is good value for money, whereas in the present economic
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environment somebody from the private sector can come in and do that job on a much more cost- effective basis? 530 Could I just say, for the record, I support Government having its own workforce to some extent, because some years ago we had a horrendous gale in the Isle of Man and the roof almost came off the heritage centre in Peel, and if it was not for us having our own staff, there would have been a significant amount of damage done while the whole construction industry was closed down for two weeks. So I think that is a good example for politicians to follow. 535 You cannot rely entirely on the private sector, but would you agree with me there has to be a mix and match of whatever is the best use in the taxpayer’s interest?
Mr Thompson: Yes, and certainly in the past, when what was known as Works did jobs, they did the job and that was the end of it – there was no sharing with the private sector. Now when you 540 look at a job like Richmond Hill, Auldyn Construction were involved, truck people were involved – there was an awful lot… I think it was about 40% of the value of the works was actually done by using the private sector. If you take the regeneration scheme that is going on at the moment, whilst the Douglas work is being done by us, the Ramsey stuff is being done… Although we are the clients for the 545 Regeneration Committee in Ramsey, the work is being done by the private sector. So it is allowing us to do some good benchmarking between the two and better understanding how they operate and how we operate. We are always wanting to learn. We do not have a franchise on what is good. Neither do we do everything bad, which is a big message to give. The quality of work and the output, in terms of 550 trying… and it has always got to be the objective to try and get it right first time. We do not always do that, but we always try to.
Q37. Mr Downie: So, with the birth of SAMU, we are going to see Government maintenance staff in local authority houses, in Education; people from your team across the whole broad 555 spectrum of the Island’s publicly owned buildings, then?
Mr Thompson: Yes. It is difficult, because in some areas clients insist, in terms of security and the like, that it is our team that do it. In other areas, if it is just a general fit-out, we very often use the private sector and not ourselves to do office fit-outs. They can do it quicker and they bring 560 skills, like partitions and stuff like that, that we do not have.
Q38. Mr Downie: So if you had a programme for replacing 300 kitchens on an estate, or bathrooms, your people would oversee that and you would get the specialists in from the private sector? 565 Mr Thompson: Which is exactly what is done now.
Q39. Mr Downie: You would tender to make sure that you got the best value for money from your suppliers? 570 Mr Thompson: Yes, we are not kitchen fitters. Let the people who do what they do do it well.
Mr Downie: Yes.
575 The Minister: And the general policy drive is towards the Department of Infrastructure staff dealing with key competencies, just as Mr Downie describes; not trying to be all things to all people, but concentrating on areas where it is important to the public.
Q40. The Chairman: Okay, thank you. 580 Can I just move on to waste, if I may? Three years ago, Tynwald voted a vote of £750,000 to set up a kerbside recycling scheme for Douglas, Braddan and Onchan. That was not all used – I think it was less than £500,000 in the end to set up the system. From the figures our Clerk has provided, it seems that the recycling rate is dropping in the Isle of Man fairly significantly, so we are not actually maintaining what we were maintaining before. 585 First of all, can I ask the question – the reduce, re-use and recycle mantra, is that still to the fore, because I have not seen much of that lately?
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Mr Thompson: Yes. Our new site at Balladoole, right at the forefront of that site is exactly that, the bring banks, and it is extremely successful. The stats, in terms of recycling, are 590 significant, they really are, so I am surprised at what you are saying. The original scheme you are talking about, the kerbside scheme – as you know, one of the original three parties dropped out.
The Chairman: I will get to that in a moment, actually, yes.
595 Mr Thompson: But the rest of it is still running and it is now their scheme, not ours. Our waste manager is extremely keen on recycling, and as you know, we are currently assisting out at the Western Civic Amenity Site and the recycling is improving there as well.
Q41. The Chairman: The issue about the kerbside scheme… When Onchan withdrew from 600 the scheme, Onchan actually had the highest rates of participation of all three areas and it was a great shame that they did withdraw. Can you confirm for me that Onchan have set up their own scheme now? In effect, they have put more bring banks in and they are disposing of it. Is the Department in any way paying for those extra bring banks or the disposal of the stuff that is collected by Onchan? 605 Mr Thompson: To the best of my knowledge, no, but I will have to find out some detail about that, Mr Butt.
Q42. The Chairman: Because, as Tynwald has paid money to provide the scheme, they 610 should not be going on to your Department to obtain that.
Mr Thompson: Absolutely right.
The Chairman: Can I ask you what efforts are being made – 615 The Minister: We would consider that to be a less efficient and less environmentally ethical way to do things, and so I cannot see that there will be support for it.
Q43. The Chairman: Because the kerbside scheme has its own routes set out. There is a 620 recycling route into the UK for every element, (Mr Thompson: Yes.) which Onchan have now got to find their own way to do. The question I would like to ask is: it is going to cost Onchan money to do what they are doing – what efforts are being made to try to get Onchan back in the scheme, bearing in mind when they withdrew, there were significantly different Commissioners in place at that stage? Are you going 625 to make any efforts to try to get Onchan to come back into the scheme, bearing in mind the Onchan people were the highest contributors towards the scheme?
Mr Thompson: There is no work being done on that at the moment, no; but happy to do so, yes. The waste team, which is a very small team – it is smaller than it has ever been – have really 630 been challenged over the past six or eight months in terms of stepping in and assisting with the Western Civic Amenity Site, so they have been very much deflected in terms of the resources out there. But quite happy to take that as a work stream; yes, of course.
Q44. The Chairman: Yes, you used to have a team of three that used to do the publicity and 635 the education, etc. They have all gone now, haven’t they?
Mr Thompson: Yes, but they still do it within the team. It is just we do not have somebody who spends the time going round the schools, but that does not mean the school work stopped. We just cannot do as much of it. We cannot do as much of anything as we used to do. 640 Q44. Mr Downie: How many people do you have in waste management, then, approximately?
Mr Thompson: If you ignore the people out at the sites – because obviously we have people out there – the team is four. 645 Q45. The Chairman: I think it goes back to my earlier question about the DoLGE functions – are they being treated less than the original DoT functions? Because if recycling is going down, it
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would indicate that perhaps the eye has been taken off the ball in regard to that – the publicity, the education – and the fact that Onchan have withdrawn, which is a great loss to the actual scheme. 650 Mr Thompson: Yes, I do not think that is related at all to the change within Government. In terms of the stuff that was assimilated into the Department, the different Divisions, there has been more work done in those Divisions than in the existing former DoT Divisions in terms of – a clumsy term, but I cannot think of a different one – getting to grips with Health and Safety, getting 655 to grips with planning. There have been huge amounts of time spent in those Divisions, so I would say it is quite the reverse, to be honest.
Q46. The Chairman: Thank you. Also, just going back a few years, the Archallagan site was lost to provide hazardous-waste 660 tipping. What has the remedy been for that? Has that been resolved?
Mr Thompson: We have got, at the moment, a planning… I can look up the date it expires, but there is a current planning – I think it is to 2015 or 2016 – on an existing site, and there is a site available for purchase up in the north for the future. It is whether or not we go ahead and buy it. 665 You have got to remember what is going in there now is basically asbestos, plaster-based products, insulation, things like that, so the volume has dropped off significantly in those areas, and of course there is a lot more general recycling going on as well.
Q47. The Chairman: There were promises to the Bride Commissioners that their tip would be 670 closed. Has that actually happened?
Mr Thompson: When the planning has expired, that will happen. (The Chairman: It will happen.) The difficulty is that we do need a site to take that kind of waste and there will have to be discussions. Our view is that if that happens, the volumes that are going up there are literally 675 maximum a handful of vehicles a week; not a day even, a week. That is a discussion for the future, but it is on the agenda.
Q48. The Chairman: Okay, thank you. So can I ask again then, will you be negotiating with the new Onchan Commissioners to see if they – ? 680 Mr Thompson: I have undertaken to have a look at that, yes.
The Chairman: Okay, thank you.
685 Mr Downie: I have just got a final –
Mr Thompson: Next time you meet, I will tell you what we have done.
Q48. Mr Downie: We have also heard a lot in the last few weeks about local authority reform 690 and what is going on with the local authorities. There was a study done some time ago about the number of refuse vehicles in the Isle of Man, and there was an issue there that if we had one refuse authority – at the time that the survey was taken there were about 53 vehicles collecting domestic refuse – we could halve, or even do better than that, the number of vehicles if we actually got the local authorities to work together, because lots of these vehicles are only collecting two or three 695 days a week and lying idle for the rest of the time.
Mr Thompson: I think we answered a detailed Question from Mr Hall.
Mr Hall: Yes. 700 The Minister: There is some working together with local authorities. In terms of the changes to the local authority structure, our position has been to try and encourage greater working together. Just as Government has to prove to be more efficient, then local authorities should as well, and the elements you describe… The waste-collection service is one which is clearly not efficient in its 705 present form, and that is one which I believe would benefit from there being fewer organisations carrying that out. The same applies in other areas. There is also a job of work going on, in terms of the housing, with local authorities outside of our Department.
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So all these various workstreams will have to co-ordinate, and obviously there is a sensitivity in terms of local authority reform. There always has been. It is a subject that has gone on for an 710 extremely long time, but I think the present financial climate encourages us to look to be more efficient throughout Government, local and central.
Mr Downie: Thank you, Minister.
715 The Chairman: Mr Hall.
Q49. Mr Hall: In terms of local authority reform, do you feel that enough detailed research is being done at the moment?
720 The Minister: Oh, yes, there is a great deal of work going on. Richard Ronan, one of the political Members of the Department, together with officers, has been around to meet each of the local authorities wherever possible. I think there are one or two where that has not been possible, but the vast majority have been met. There have been discussions. There has also been a forum where they came together for further discussions. 725 Clearly, there will be some resistance to any change, from some smaller local authorities principally, but I think if we do things in the right way and work together with them and try… There have been initiatives undertaken separately by the local authorities themselves – if you look at the Garff Initiative, for example, where a number of the Commissioners in the north of the Island are working together in a number of areas. If we can encourage further developments down 730 those routes in the interim, then that is something we are very keen to do.
Q50. Mr Hall: I was just somewhat surprised, in response to one of my Questions, that indicated that to answer them would need detailed research, which I would have thought would have been undertaken, which indicated to me that not enough work was currently being done 735 regarding local authority reform.
The Minister: I think it is very important that the local authority reform and any changes to the local authorities are done in a measured way. In terms of the detail that you required, that was detail which is required to be accessed from the local authorities and they were not able to provide 740 that in a timely manner.
Q51. Mr Hall: We have got, currently, the boundary review taking place. Do you think that, really, reform of the local authorities may be somewhat difficult until the boundary review is complete, if that is what Tynwald decides to do? How is that going to affect local authority reform 745 with a boundary review of the House of Keys?
The Minister: Yes, I think any local authority reform, whether a boundary review is going on or otherwise, has proved over the years to be a problematic area. I think what we have to convince all stakeholders of, whether they are local authority members or people who live in areas around 750 the Island, is that the purpose of this is to make sure that Government, whether it is local or national, is acting in the most efficient manner to service the people who pay the fees for all our services.
Q52. Mr Hall: If I can just turn back to waste management, I was somewhat surprised to learn 755 that oil is being burnt in the Energy from Waste Plant, in the region of 447 tonnes per year, which is equating to a monetary value of nearly £300,000. Is that troubling to the Department; and if so, are any investigations currently being undertaken, and what alternatives might there be going forward?
760 Mr Thompson: I think we explained, but it is worth exploring again, the EfW burns oil at the start-up point, the main line. That is what we use, with other things, to essentially start the burn. The secondary waste stream burns fuel because of the nature of the stuff it is burning. That is the difference between the two. Once the EfW is running, apart from build-up and shutdown, it does not burn oil. 765 But you have got to put that in the context of the size of the thing in terms of the volumes going in. So it does not run on fuel, other than the municipal solid waste (MSW) itself, when it is burning.
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Q53. The Chairman: Firstly, Mr Thompson… I have studied this as well, and the issue of oil 770 is not a major issue. Onchan Commissioners used it as a red herring, I think, as a reason to stop doing the kerbside based on the amount of oil being burnt at the Energy from Waste Plant, and it really is start-up and moving jams and blockages.
Mr Thompson: There is no purpose in it. 775 The Chairman: The secondary unit needs oil to burn some of the stuff they have actually tried to reduce. (Mr Thompson: Yes.) Can I just go back to Mr Downie’s point about the refuse collection? There was a survey in DoLGE five years ago when I was there, which showed there were 51 vehicles delivering waste to 780 the Energy from Waste Plant and a well-known waste-disposal company produced a survey to DoLGE then to say they could do the whole operation with 14 or 15 vehicles, saving £1½ million a year. In view of our economic circumstances now, is that an avenue you would explore with the local authorities to actually take control of them and say, ‘We will provide a service with a third of the vehicles now used’? 785 Mr Thompson: I think, legitimately, the wish to take control may meet a degree of resistance.
The Chairman: Yes. I should not have used the words ‘take control’.
790 Mr Thompson: No, I understand what you mean, and certainly our waste manager, that is high on his agenda that he would like to do. In the discussions that Mr Ronan has had, that is one of the points that comes up from time to time to try and make them… For instance, I think the operational pattern of waste collection is primarily a morning thing, and it is selling the idea perhaps that we could have kit even in one place doing the morning shift and then move over to 795 the other. It is introducing those concepts to areas where it is viewed with a lot of resistance and essentially trampling… ‘This is reorganisation by another name,’ you know, because in some areas, of course, apart from waste and joining in the planning process and contributing to that and street lighting, that is all they have.
800 The Chairman: It is, yes, so they need to hang on to that perhaps. Minister.
The Minister: All I was going to add was that there is a difference throughout the Island in terms of the periods of time that people have waste collection. Some people – 805 Q54. The Chairman: Once a fortnight?
The Minister: And so the commissioners in those areas might argue that what their parishioners require is a two-weekly collection rather than a weekly collection, so there are 810 inconsistencies throughout the Island as well which need to be examined.
Q55. Mr Downie: But shouldn’t it be for Government to stipulate what the procedures are for collecting the waste? If we are bearing the bulk of the cost of it and there is a subsidy somewhere, which there obviously is from time to time, we should be saying those receptacles should be 815 collected once a week or once a fortnight, or whatever, and then the same criteria should apply across the Isle of Man and we should be more closely involved to make sure that the service has been delivered satisfactorily and at the most economic rate.
The Minister: I completely agree with the latter point. I think the point I was trying to make 820 perhaps and did not get over was that some local authorities might argue that they are actually being more efficient by doing a two-weekly cycle rather than a more regular service, and as long as that does not complicate or cause problems in terms of health issues –
Q56. Mr Downie: I could give you a counter-argument that some of those authorities will 825 have houses worth between £1½ million and £2 million in their area and they are probably only paying about £45 a year rates. That is another argument for another place, but it just shows the dichotomy that exists in the Isle of Man and the different standards, and if we are talking about waste management and Government’s involvement and trying to get value for money, we have got to start to drive this issue. 830 ______16 EIPRC-I TYNWALD STANDING COMMITTEE, WEDNESDAY, 14th NOVEMBER 2012
830 The Minister: It does, and I accept entirely that the rating system presents unfairness and inequalities throughout, and I have long been a supporter of reform of that.
The Chairman: Can I move on now to your Service Delivery Plan 2011-12. I presume it is not a historic document yet. We have some queries about some of the aims and ambitions and targets, 835 etc. I think some of them, we will write you to actually see have they been achieved or not, but I think Mr Downie has got some specific questions.
Q57. Mr Downie: I will just walk you through the key challenges. I do not know whether you have brought the document with you, but I take it this is the last Department of Infrastructure 840 document that was produced – Service Delivery Plan 2011-12, signed by yourself in the preface, the Chief Executive. It was the old Minister, so –
The Minister: He is actually younger than me!
845 Mr Downie: Well, the former Minister, but we will go through the key challenges and through some of the targets that are here.
The Minister: If I could just indicate we have not brought that along today because I do not believe it was in the matters that were – 850 Mr Downie: I accept that, but we are actually looking at something now which is nearly three years old.
The Minister: Yes, happy to do that. I am just saying – 855 Q58. Mr Downie: On the overview, stimulating income streams, perhaps not one for Mr Cretney to feel embarrassed about, but – (The Chairman: Page 7.) Page 7. Mr Gawne was on record as saying he was going to save £3 million at the Airport. The logical question is has that been achieved; and if not, why not? 860 Mr Thompson: The figure that was quoted was £2 million; (Mr Downie: Two million.) and no, it has not, but yes it is being.
Q59. Mr Downie: Right, so it is ongoing then? 865 Mr Thompson: It certainly is. There is a –
The Chairman: A great answer, that.
870 Mr Thompson: Thank you, but I do not think you meant it as a compliment. It is a challenge, as you are aware, and one of the issues there is income streams, and the traditional model for income streams at airports now is retail, it is high-cost parking, and that is not the model for the Isle of Man Airport. We want to walk through that door and get on the plane, not go browsing, so that is a bit of a challenge for us. 875 Similarly, the experience of parking: we all own it and we do not want to be presented with a bill, after being away for a couple of days, of £30, which is what happens elsewhere. So that is one of the challenges. What the Director has got now, as part of our budget-reduction plans, is… in discussions with staff about terms and conditions, about the way we operate, the way we deliver services, and that 880 has to be ongoing.
Q60. Mr Downie: We often hear comments about members of staff going on holiday and being entitled to overtime and all these other things that have gone on in the past. They are currently being addressed, then? 885 Mr Thompson: As part of the terms-and-conditions discussions.
Mr Downie: Okay. The next one, on the same page –
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890 Mr Thompson: The other difficulty, Mr Downie, as you are aware, is of course significant reductions in people through the door at the moment, (Mr Downie: Yes.) and yet the operating costs are more or less as they were. For instance, in Weather, the head of the Weather team left. The way we have replaced him has not been in the same way. We are trying to work with the teams to reduce costs, and they are very 895 aware of that and very much helping us do that, but the numbers go down… There is a point at which… because you have still got to keep the door open.
Q61. Mr Downie: Yes. I would not like to calculate what the loan charges are either on the works that have been done in last few years. As far as I am concerned, they have been a good 900 investment because one thing we can say is our facilities down there are very good and very much up to date, (Mr Thompson: Yes.) and to current international standards. (Mr Thompson: Absolutely.) So it has been a lot of money to spend, but at the end of the day I think it will stand us in good stead for a few years to come yet.
905 Mr Thompson: And – not as a platitude at all – all delivered on time and in budget.
Q62. Mr Downie: Yes. The next one on page 7 is the area that is headed ‘Economic Challenges’, and I will just read it:
910 ‘The economic situation is difficult and likely to remain so for the foreseeable future. The priority therefore will be to focus on maintaining existing infrastructure ahead of developing or improving new facilities and services.’
Do you think you are actually getting on top of maintaining the existing infrastructure? I understand that a recent straw poll around the Isle of Man said that we needed to spend about £1 915 billion, didn’t we, on our infrastructure?
Mr Thompson: Well, it was a bit more sophisticated than a straw poll!
The Minister: Are we talking about the roads here? 920 Mr Thompson: Yes, that is the –
The Minister: A hundred million pounds.
925 Q63. Mr Downie: How much?
The Minister: A hundred million.
Mr Downie: A hundred million? 930 Mr Thompson: Yes, to get all of the roads… You are aware of the condition of our roads, (Mr Downie: Yes.) you particularly, in terms of what they are, which is tarmac or whatever stuck down on dirt, basically, and some of those roads are just well past life expiration. The cost of putting a brand-new infrastructure in has been estimated at £1 billion. That is not 935 realistic, but to achieve what we need to achieve, there is about £100 million-worth of work wants doing. That has come from not intuitive but evidential examination by sending out kit that drives round the roads, basically, and tests the resistivity of the surfaces, the thickness of the carriageway and all the rest of it, and that is the advice we have had. In other words, it is red, yellow and green, in terms of condition, because there are bits that we do not – 940 The Minister: However –
Mr Thompson: Sorry, Minister.
945 The Minister: No, that is fine. Just to say that the reality of the situation, in the economic position where we presently are, indicates that we have to, more than ever, prioritise our work. That is being done, and the two key priorities in terms of road infrastructure are the Promenade and Peel Road, and I have made that clear on a number of occasions.
950 Q64. Mr Downie: So what made the decision then to shut Onchan down for several weeks? Was Onchan a priority? Or some of the other jobs that have taken place – were we not better off ______18 EIPRC-I TYNWALD STANDING COMMITTEE, WEDNESDAY, 14th NOVEMBER 2012
trying to tackle the bigger issues? Peel Road is, as you say, a major expenditure item, as is going to be Douglas Promenade, so I would like to know how you make the decision on where the money has to be spent and how you work your priorities. 955 The Chairman: Can I come in there as well and say the question is where are the priorities. Again, Onchan, as far as I know, was not a great problem. We should not talk about specific road surfaces, I know – I am trying to generalise it – but recently on my motorbike, I nearly came off on a pothole on the Promenade, hit a pothole. Onchan, to me, is much less a priority than Peel 960 Road, so I wonder why you gave priority to Onchan over that.
Mr Thompson: You are going to hate me for this.
The Minister: He can answer that, but if I can just say if you do come across any potholes, 965 Report a Problem.
Mr Thompson: That is just what I was going to say.
The Minister: There is an app, and they are attended to very swiftly. But in terms of Onchan, 970 do you want to…?
Mr Thompson: Onchan… the issue there was a combination of… that piece of road was the bit that had not been done. There was a lot of work to do with footpaths and the traffic lights were life expired, which meant digging up all the road in the first place. 975 The Chairman: Can I come in there?
Mr Thompson: So it all brought together… and I know you do not like traffic lights.
980 Q65. The Chairman: Please get rid of the lights. Can I just say in TT week, the lights in Onchan went out for about three hours at tea time and Onchan then actually cleared of traffic. It disappeared because they kept moving. Sorry.
The Minister: Mr Thompson has recently recognised that, in terms of going along the 985 Promenade in the evening.
Mr Thompson: Broadway.
Q66. Mr Downie: I cannot, for the life of me, understand why we still have lights at 990 Ballacraine, when you see the huge area there – why that is not a mini-roundabout – and there are hardly thousands of people looking to cross the road. These are the areas that we should be focusing on, I think, and trying to make some saving.
The Chairman: Yes, we should not really talk about specifics here, but we are talking about 995 priorities. Mr Hall.
Q67. Mr Hall: Yes, I have just got three questions which I would like to just touch on. You have touched on Douglas Promenade. Would you be able to give us an update, the latest update, 1000 on the Douglas Promenade design proposals?
The Minister: Yes, the proposals are before the planners. In relation to the next phase, which will be from Regent Street onwards – that is the first phase to Regent Street from the Sea Terminal – they are before the planners presently. 1005 In relation to the next phases, there is currently a consultation which has been available to the public to say… which follows on from an earlier consultation which sought their views. We have proposals for further phases and we are seeking feedback from the public as to whether they endorse what we are proposing to do in terms of the next elements. Depending on the outcome of the planning application, I will be coming to Tynwald, I presume 1010 early in the new year, hopefully, in relation to the first phase of those works.
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Q68. Mr Hall: Okay, and then you mentioned about priorities of the Department, but in the Chief Minister’s statement on Government priorities in October, he said that one of the priorities was capital construction schemes to develop infrastructure and support economic development. 1015 The June 2007 Fisher Associates Report was of the opinion that building and expansion of local marinas would be economically viable and create employment, so what I would like to know is where does marina development sit within your Department of Infrastructure priorities?
The Minister: I think the examples of Douglas and Peel – Peel perhaps in particular – have 1020 been good, perhaps long-overdue investments, which have been well received by the public and have seen private sector investment alongside them. In relation to at the moment, I think there is more work to be done in terms of any future plans. There are no immediate future plans, but I believe that this is something we are in an ideal position in the Isle of Man to gain from, water- based activity, but at the moment there are no immediate plans to produce further marinas. 1025 Q69. Mr Downie: Can I just come in on that? Can I just say that at a presentation some time ago about Port St Mary, it was said then that there was up to £24 million required to repair the breakwater (Mr Thompson: Yes.) at Port St Mary, and that was one of the reasons why Port St Mary was seen as a suitable place for a marina, because it would have water in it 24 hours a day, 1030 the issue with the breakwater could be addressed at the same time, and there was significant land round about for other types of development, which would have made the whole thing even more viable. (Mr Thompson: Yes.) Is that being progressed at the moment?
Mr Thompson: Yes. 1035 The Minister: Yes, and my preference has always been Port St Mary for the reasons you outline. However, I think there was not unanimous support from the Members of the House of Keys for Rushen at the time.
1040 Q70. Mr Downie: Has that changed?
The Minister: I think it has.
Mr Thompson: Yes. 1045 Mr Downie: We have had an Election since then.
Mr Thompson: They are more supportive, although the personnel has changed. The remaining opportunities for harbours with marinas are obviously Ramsey and Port St Mary, although there 1050 has been talk about Port Erin. The issue in both the key contenders is infrastructure. As you said, quite rightly, Mr Downie, we have got a life-expired breakwater in the south, and in Ramsey the phase that we must do before we start developing anything to do with a marina is making sure what we have got is right, and at the moment we have got a capital project coming up to do the swing bridge, which again is past its sell-by date – not to change it, but just to repair it. 1055 Q71. Mr Downie: Which swing bridge is this?
Mr Thompson: In the middle of Ramsey.
1060 Mr Downie: In Ramsey?
Mr Thompson: Yes.
Q72. Mr Downie: I thought we had not long ago spent a fortune on it – new bearings in it and 1065 painted it.
Mr Thompson: No, we have done new bearings in the one at Peel. The one in Ramsay has had a new track on the bottom. The one in Ramsey is always having repairs done to it, but it must be –
1070 Mr Downie: A hundred years old.
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Mr Thompson: – 12 years since it was last painted, (Mr Downie: Yes.) so we are going to come forward with a scheme to do that. It is not just the bridge, of course; it is the deck. (Mr Downie: Right.) It is long overdue, and 1075 that was going to be one of the options in terms of where a flap gate would go in the future. We think our job is very much to develop the infrastructure that allows the things like a marina to come along later, ideally perhaps private sector funding to bring money in, although the investments to date, as you know, have been ours. They have been Government led and very successful. Now we have got the tougher ones to do where we have got to get the infrastructure 1080 right before we can put the actual marina facilities in.
Q73. Mr Downie: Yes. I think it is a good point, and that is why I raised the point about the breakwater.
1085 Mr Thompson: They are in the programme.
Mr Downie: If we are doing things in an area, you will have to try and get as much added value as we can get.
1090 Mr Thompson: They are in the capital programme.
Mr Downie: Right, okay.
Q74. The Chairman: I just have one more slightly mundane question. The proposed bus 1095 station in Victoria Street: what is your Department’s view on that? It would involve putting traffic lights in at the bottom of Victoria Street etc, which might not help traffic flow. Does the Department support the Victoria Street bus station?
The Minister: We are involved in the consultation on that, but that is the extent of it. The plans 1100 and proposals are those of the Department of Community, Culture and Leisure.
The Chairman: Yes, I know. I just wonder what your Department’s view is.
The Minister: Well, I think we are seeking feedback from the public and I think we have 1105 picked up the response from the public.
The Chairman: That is good. Thank you. Mr Downie, have you got one more point on this?
1110 Q75. Mr Downie: Yes, I wanted to move on to another subject now. On page 8, ‘Delivering our Departmental Priorities’… What I want to talk to you about is where are we with the most contentious element in your Department, which you took over 12 months ago, which is the planning system? Bearing in mind it has such an impact on the overall economic viability of the Island and the environmental factors as well, where are we with the promises that were made? We 1115 have got the Southern Area Plan that has been delayed, the Eastern Plan, the All-Island Strategic Plan – where are all these things, and are you getting the right resources in there from central Government to be able to deliver these things at the most crucial time in the Island’s history for some considerable time?
1120 The Minister: What I would say is that, in terms of the resources available to the Planning Section, the Chief Minister has made it quite clear that if additional resources are required those will be provided, because obviously he acknowledges the importance of the Planning Section in terms of the ongoing development of the economy. If I can talk specifically… The Southern Plan, we are seeking advice from the Attorney 1125 General’s. I hope to come to Tynwald again early in the New Year for approval of the Southern Local Plan, but we were just in the late stages of that. The Eastern Plan will not be getting progressed. There will be a review of the All-Island Strategic Plan, particular elements of it – in particular those elements which are important in terms of the development of the economy. So that has been the top priority, and what we have tried to do is take some of the more 1130 mundane aspects of the work previously done by the planning officials away, in terms of Permitted Development Orders etc. I think there has been really good work in this regard, but it is a big piece of work and it has taken, is taking, a long time, but I think that at the end of the day it
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will prove to be that we have a planning system which is fit for purpose and is in line with not only the needs of the economy but also the social needs of the Island as well, which are equally of 1135 importance.
The Chairman: Mr Hall.
Q76. Mr Hall: Yes, I have just got a question. In respect of the planning, do you think it is 1140 right that the Department of Economic Development have now got a role in the planning process, along with the Department of Infrastructure; and, are you aware, is there careful and evidence- based use of short-term economic benefit in the planning decisions?
The Minister: In terms of the involvement of the Department of Economic Development, I 1145 think it is key and crucial and could not be more important. Just as representation is made from Manx National Heritage in terms of historical aspects, which are clearly of importance to the Island, or from environmental sources in terms of those elements which are important, the economy of the Island is of equal importance – if not more at this particular time – and as such it is very important that the Department of Economic Development is able to provide support to 1150 schemes as they go forward. In terms of short term and longer term, I think the principal thing we would be interested in is long-term sustainability in terms of the economy, rather than just the short-term benefits, but those can equally be measured; and of course, with the construction sector presently – some elements of it, anyway; the larger elements, I think, in particular – having a difficult time, then it is important 1155 that we have that on our radar as well.
Q77. Mr Hall: Okay, and in terms of the strategic plans, why does the Isle of Man actually need strategic plans for each area? Why couldn’t you have the plans for the east and the west prepared together as a whole-Island strategic plan merged with the Southern Plan? 1160 The Minister: I think principally because we, as legislators, have set out a certain route which requires to be followed in law, and what we have done recently is recognise that adjustments to the All-Island Strategic Plan, which itself has not all that long been endorsed by Tynwald… but we have seen that there are certain areas which could be improved upon, and that is why that is now 1165 taking the priority.
Mr Thompson: Can I just go back to the question about resources? One of the things that we have done, of course, as you are aware, is reduce the need for some of the smaller de minimus type things to need planning, which has then freed up a lot of planning-officer time – solar panels and 1170 windows and things like that, and we have put in place this interactive house where people can interrogate and find out what they need. So we have tried to reorganise our resources by making it easier, and of course it ties in equally with the Chief Minister’s wish to reduce bureaucracy as much as possible.
1175 Q78. Mr Hall: Just one final question. There is a report to the Council of Ministers’ Energy Costs Task Force that recommended that the building regulations aimed at improving thermal efficiency of future public and private sector housing should progress at the earliest opportunity, and it was stated that the Department was planning to consult on draft building regulations in the autumn of 2012. Can you give us an update on that and, as far as you can, how the topic of cavity 1180 wall insulation may affect the exercise?
Mr Thompson: This relates to recently perceived problems with cavity wall insulation, doesn’t it? The plan, in terms of reviewing the regulations and responding to that, is active; we are still on with it. It is not going to be now – we have not got much of this year left – but it is imminent. It is 1185 just a lot of work to do. The cavity wall issue… I am afraid I would have to give you a more considered answer in terms of the regulations. Anything that we can do to improve thermal efficiency in properties, in terms of regulation and commitment to sustainable construction, can only be at the heart of what we do moving forward, can’t it? It has to be, so no argument there. Just to add to the planning issue, I think the figure today is that there is about £35 million- 1190 worth of approved development gone through Planning that has not actually started yet – just to demonstrate that stuff is moving through, and certainly in developers’ discussions with me only last week, all their issues with planning, apart from the specifics of a particular development, but in terms of process they are more than happy with the way it has gone –
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The Minister: And on – 1195 Mr Thompson: – reflecting the improvements we have made. Sorry.
The Minister: Sorry. All I was going to say was, just to add to that very briefly, what we would say again, and are trying to say regularly now, is early engagement with developers and the 1200 Planning Section can only be of benefit to the developers. That is why we have tried to free up more time of the senior planning officers to assist in those larger matters which are of importance.
Q79. Mr Downie: Can we change subject now, Mr Chairman, and go on to ‘Governance’ on page 9, and the old chestnut that everybody has had to deal with at some stage – the Road 1205 Transport Licensing Committee. How much is it going to cost Government this year to regulate that activity – the taxis – and what are we doing about it?
Mr Thompson: I do not quite understand your question, Mr Downie, in terms of –
1210 Mr Downie: There is a subvention from Government (Mr Thompson: Yes.) which exceeds £100,000, or it has been in the last few years.
The Minister: Correct, but Tynwald has dictated that there should be a Road Traffic Licensing Committee independent from my Department, so until Tynwald changes that – 1215 Q80. Mr Downie: So you oversee it? You are part of it?
The Minister: I am not part of it, no; it is independent from the Department. Rightly so.
1220 Q81. Mr Downie: I thought in here it was still part of your… It has changed, has it, now?
The Minister: No, it is rightly an independent body, (Mr Downie: Right.) independent from the Department. We meet from time to time, (Mr Downie: Right.) and obviously they come to me in relation to matters of legislation they would like to see changed. 1225 Q82. Mr Downie: You have political oversight and responsibility, as I understand it; or has that transferred somewhere else now?
The Minister: It has not transferred anywhere else; it is an independent body. I stand to be 1230 corrected, but until Tynwald changes its stance, that they do not want to have a Road Traffic –
Q83. Mr Downie: Correct me if I am wrong, then: does the budget come out of your budget? Do you have to find the money to fund the Road Transport Licensing Committee?
1235 Mr Thompson: Yes, they are fully funded.
Mr Downie: By you?
Mr Thompson: Yes. 1240 Q84. Mr Downie: Yes, and they have been costing over a hundred-and-odd thousand pounds. There was a commitment made some years ago to try and redress that and deal with it. Since we have not had a taxi debate in Tynwald now for x number of years, it just seems to be going on and on and on, and nothing seems to be happening. 1245 The Minister: Sorry, what do you mean by ‘address’? What commitment?
Q85. Mr Downie: Well, the former Chief Minister had views of his own about all this. We were having a different regime at the Airport, we were having (The Minister: Yes.) all-Island 1250 taxis.
The Minister: Yes, so we are talking specifically –
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1255 The Minister: Yes. If we are talking about that discussion, my position – and I have answered a number of Questions in both Houses on this, I think – is that at this time, given the economic climate that prevails, it is a light touch from my Department in terms of taxis. I see taxis lining up in Victoria Street – anybody will see them – double parked. It seems to me that they are having a challenging time. What is happening, ironically, is that another form of licence is obtained by 1260 people, which seems to get around the existing –
Q86. Mr Downie: My position is it seems to me to be a ridiculous state of affairs when a taxi can take somebody to the Airport, and then has to come all the way back to Douglas, (The Minister: Yes.) burning fuel, costing time and money, when there are actually people standing at 1265 the Airport, waiting for a taxi, because none of the approved Airport taxis are available to take passengers.
The Minister: Yes, and I agree with you on that point. I believe that my position presently is in relation to the economic climate that prevails, but I do agree with you on that point. But you must 1270 also acknowledge that a number of Members of Tynwald and the taxi proprietors are a strong lobby, and a number of Members of Tynwald, including the then Minister, chose not to proceed, prior to the General Election in 2011, with any changes. They withdrew them at the last moment.
Q87. The Chairman: You still have the power, though, to bring in that schedule (The 1275 Minister: Yes.) to make all-Island taxi licensing. (The Minister: Yes.) You have that power here?
The Minister: We do, and it is something which I am recently considering again after having had representations from the RTLC as to whether or not the all-Island element of it is one which should be progressed at this time. Their view is strongly that it should be. 1280 Q88. Mr Downie: Thanks for the answer and your honesty in dealing with it, because it is an ongoing sore in the side of many politicians, and like issues dealing with children, animals and taxi drivers… It is something that we try and avoid, if we can. The new Health and Safety Executive, that is now up and running, is it? 1285 Mr Thompson: It is not a new one; it is a new director with his team. Yes, he is operational. He has been well received in the work he is doing. He is coming forward with some withdrawals of legislation.
1290 The Minister: We have already had one element.
Mr Thompson: One of them.
The Minister: It is a practical-based approach, making sure that the legislation again is fit for 1295 purpose and that we are not duplicating legislation, and making sure that the areas of priority are the ones which are examined most closely.
Q89. Mr Downie: A couple of other general things, then. You are going to review the terms of reference and membership of the inter-departmental Air and Sea Strategy Group to ensure it is fit 1300 for purpose by March 2012. Is that being done; and who are the members of it?
Mr Thompson: The ASSG is… It sounds a bit like The Thirty-Nine Steps, doesn’t it? (Mr Downie: Yes.) It is a group. It has representatives from Economic Development, ourselves through Harbours, the Airport. It is exactly who you would expect, (Mr Downie: Right.) and it 1305 talks about strategic issues. The membership… For instance, chief executives used to attend it. They do not all automatically attend now. It is a regular forum where we talk about… and, for instance, inform other Departments about progress we are making with say the Steam Packet User Agreement. We talk about airline issues.
1310 Q90. Mr Downie: Don’t you still have your Chief Officers’ Group meetings and things like that, (Mr Thompson: Yes.) where you discuss all these things?
Mr Thompson: That is the specific forum to talk with the interested officers in each Department on the tools for their job – ‘Where are you up to with this?’ – and that is what it does. 1315
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The Chairman: Can you move on…?
Q91. Mr Downie: Yes, and the next one: you were bringing forward proposals for improved consultation in respect of the passenger services to and from the Isle of Man and to address the 1320 recommendation of the Tynwald Select Committee into the Isle of Man Steam Packet Company. That has been done, has it?
Mr Thompson: Yes, there were two things there. One is the surveys, which are done regularly. They were not being done at the Airport; they are now. The other one was that the 1325 recommendation was that we have regular formal liaison meetings with the Steam Packet. That was the bit that was not being addressed historically, and has been, and there are now regular meetings with the Steam Packet, as we discussed earlier.
Q92. Mr Downie: That is fine. 1330 On your legislation, the Building Control (Amendment) Bill, progressing your plans and so on… There is the Road Traffic (Miscellaneous Amendments) Bill, (The Chairman: Page 17.) page 17, (Mr Thompson: Yes.) the CDM Regulations, all in train now and all progressing?
Mr Thompson: Yes.’ 1335 ‘ Q93. Mr Downie: Yes, good. So, as far as dealing with new legislation, the Department does not have any problems in that area? You are able to get on – like you have with your planning officers, you have been able to apply yourselves and pick up…
1340 The Minister: Yes. All I would say in terms of secondary legislation coming from Bill B, which predated me, is Hon. Members will be aware that regularly at sittings of Tynwald, I am coming forward with pieces of secondary legislation, some of which are challenging to me in terms of the technical aspect of them, but we are making progress in that.
1345 Q94. The Chairman: Could I ask… We are getting near the end now. I will come back to Members in a minute. The Flood Risk Management Bill came to us and then it disappeared again. In view of the weather we have had these last few months, it is probably an important Bill to bring through. I wonder what happened to that Bill?
1350 Mr Thompson: It is a WASA-driven – Water and Sewerage Authority driven – Bill. We are part of the team that deals with it, but they are the drivers of that legislation.
The Minister: I had, only this week, a discussion with the Chairman of the Water and Sewerage Authority, Mr Houghton, who wishes to make a presentation to the Council of Ministers 1355 on that, prior to it coming before the branches. So it is imminent.
Q95. The Chairman: Yes, which brings me almost to my last question – almost – the loss of the Sewerage Authority from your Department into the Water and Sewerage Authority, has that been – 1360 Mr Thompson: We miss them.
The Chairman: You do miss them?
1365 Mr Thompson: We do.
Q96. The Chairman: Has it been a disadvantage to the Department?
Mr Thompson: It has not been a disadvantage. I thought the arrangement, as it was, was 1370 excellent. They were a great team and they have been assimilated into one organisation now very well. It is a common model in the UK. I was entirely happy with them being with us on the sewerage side, and it was disappointing that they went, because we had a great challenge there in getting the IRIS strategy in place – it was making good progress, always with challenges. So yes, we miss it, but it has not affected delivery of service and they have delivered an awful lot since 1375 they left us.
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The Chairman: Okay, thank you.’ Mr Hall.
1380 Q97. Mr Hall: Yes, I have got a couple of further questions. The Queen’s Pier, the working group – how much has been spent on that project, and has a strategy been formulated for the future direction?
The Minister: I will ask Ian to do the detail, but in terms of where we are up to at the moment, 1385 we are up to where Tynwald approved certain holding works making sure that things were in position. However, we do not have the funds and it has been made quite clear that that is one of the schemes, in terms of further work, which is presently on hold because of the economic climate that prevails. If you have got any more detail…
1390 Mr Thompson: The job was completed 12 months ago, on time. It was a hundred-and- something thousand inside budget. I asked that the team, before it was disbanded, came up with an opportunity, really, so that when better days came along, we would have a strategy perhaps for being able to progress the Pier in bite-size chunks or as a whole. In other words, how could it be done – it sounds quite easy, but it is not; it is quite complex – and we have that. 1395 In terms of overall priorities, spending more, investing more into the Pier is probably pretty low across the overview of Government at the moment, with all its challenges. For instance, one of the ideas was if at least we did up to the first bay, there is an opportunity for filming, and of course the people who had paid for it all could use it, but they would still lament not being able to go to the end, of course. 1400 The Minister: Can I just, again, add, in terms of the overall, rather than specifically about the Pier, since 2009-10 there has been £10 million saved on the Department’s budget, and ongoing for the next three years there is a further requirement to save 5% per annum, so we are under rigorous control. Also, there has been a saving of 69.4 full-time equivalents in terms of staff within the 1405 Department, so we are on board in terms of making sure that we are as efficient as we can be.
Q98. Mr Downie: Can I just ask a question here, Mr Chairman? On page 21, the ‘Department Aim’, you aim to:
1410 ‘Deliver the £2.5m annual programme of strategic highways maintenance’.
Mr Thompson: Yes.
Mr Downie: Is that a realistic figure, given that when we go from here, pavements are broken, 1415 kerbs are broken, everywhere you go half the white lines on crossings and halt signs are now rubbed away, worn away? Is that a realistic figure, or should we not be really stepping up to the plate more and putting more money into it?
Mr Thompson: Right behind you, Mr Downie, yes. 1420 Mr Downie: Because we are putting off the fateful day, (Mr Thompson: Absolutely, yes.) and when we do have to play catch-up, it is going to cost us a significant amount of money to even address some of these problems which are fairly minor at the moment.
1425 Mr Thompson: To achieve a reasonable standard, we would need about £6 million a year – £2.5 million, in fact, is a rolling programme of small investments of be it the play and overlay or a rebuilding of a section, and it is quite a difficult programme to deliver. You would not believe it was, but it is, because there are only certain windows you have got. You have got to get in and then get out before TT, because you cannot have green tarmac 1430 anywhere near the course, but even you have got to shut down the works while TT is going on. You can start again in summer, but then you have got to shut down again for Grand Prix. And then, of course, while you have got the chunk of the year left after that, it has unfortunately got off into the bad weather. So it is a challenging programme, but we deliver it and we have been delivering it and will 1435 continue to deliver it, and it does give us the opportunity to make a significant difference. I still believe – and this really is asking to be shot down, but I still believe now – the roads are generally
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improved and we have got some cracking visible improvements to road areas over what we had in the past. Nowhere near enough.
1440 The Minister: ‘Cracking’ is not the best…
Mr Thompson: And certainly the systems we have got in place to respond quickly to potholes with the jet patches, and things like that, are more dynamic. If you find another pothole, Chairman, just get on the app and tell us, and it will be dealt with. I am not making light of that at all. It is a 1445 safety issue and equally, if you do not fix it, it grows.
The Chairman: My main car is my Mini, which is a real BMC Mini, and that promenade in that Mini is horrendous. You have to try and drive on the tramlines; you know that is smooth.
1450 The Minister: I look forward to your support in Tynwald when I come forward with this! (Laughter)
Q99. Mr Downie: I just want to lend some support to what you said. What I get very concerned about is when you walk down… Occasionally, I walk into work from the top of town. 1455 All the kerb edgings are broken; pavements are broken. We have got Government’s own vehicles parking up here on pavements, breaking all the kerbs, breaking all the footpaths. That is what is causing the damage – improper use by vehicles – and there really does not seem to be any enforcement by the Police or any other agencies on this.
1460 Mr Thompson: Well, that is another discussion, but we have now parking controllers, we have now got the traffic wardens, and that work is being stepped up, it is being expanded across the Island; and it is a challenge. Strangely, the increase in enforcement came out of the Quality of Life Survey. People are fed up with people parking where they like, and they stay fed up until they are the lucky winner of a £60 donation, unfortunately. Congratulations! 1465 The Minister: Or £120, if it is in a disabled permit spot.
Q100. The Chairman: We are going to wind up now. This document, we are going to write to you to ask where you are up to on various ambitions and aims. 1470 Mr Thompson: And I will try and collect thoughts on some of the points you have raised and feed back before the next meeting.
The Chairman: Before we finish, any further questions, Mr Hall? 1475 Mr Hall: No.
The Chairman: Mr Downie?
1480 Mr Downie: No. I think it has been a very useful discussion this morning, and I just want to put on record my thanks for your openness and honesty. You have got problems, and I think you are trying to deal with them in the best way you possibly can.
The Chairman: Yes, thank you for your attendance. We will see you later in the year. We 1485 appreciate what you have said to us today and we will be writing to you with further questions.
The Minister: Okay, thank you.
The Chairman: Thank you very much. The public meeting is now closed. 1490 The Committee adjourned at 12.10 p.m.
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