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REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS OF COURT

Douglas, Tuesday, 21st January 1997 at 10.30 a.m.

Present: CONGRATULATIONS TO The (the Hon Sir Charles SIR MILES RAWSTRON WALKER Kerruish OBE LLD (hc) CP). In the Council: The Lord ON CONFERMENT OF KNIGHTHOOD Bishop (the Rt Rev Noel Debroy Jones), the Attorney-General (Mr J M Kerruish Q C), Mr B Barton, The President: Now, to the hon. member for Rushen, Hon C M Christian, Mr D F K Delaney, Mr E G Lowey, Sir , it is with delight I extend the warm His Honour A C Luft CBE, Hon E J Mann, Messrs congratulations of us all on the conferment upon him of a J N Radcliffe and G H Waft, with Mr T A Bawden, knighthood in the New Year's honours list. During his 20 Clerk of the Council. years of membership of this , and particularly during his two terms as Chief Minister, Sir In the Keys: The Speaker (the Hon N Q Cringle) Miles has served this nation conscientiously and well. His (Rushen); Mr L I Singer and Hon A R Bell (Ramsey); knighthood has been well and truly earned and I know he Hon R E Quine OBE (Ayre); Mr J D Q Cannan (Michael); will bear it worthily. In offering these words of Hon H Hannan (Peel); Mr W A Gilbey (Glenfaba); congratulation I know the Court would wish to include his Mr S C Rodan (Garff); Hon D North (); charming wife, Lady Walker. Mr Speaker. Mr P Karran, Hon R K Corkill and Mr J R Kniveton (Onchan); Messrs J R Houghton and E A Crowe (Douglas The Speaker: Yes, Mr President, I am delighted this North); Hon D C Cretney and Mr A C Duggan (Douglas morning to be able to associate both myself and the House South); Mr R P Braidwood and Mrs B J Cannell (Douglas of Keys with your remarks. I have been privileged to serve East); Messrs J P Shimmin and A F Downie (Douglas with Sir Miles in both the Arbory Parish Commissioners West); Hon J A Brown (Castletown); Hon D J Gelling and to be able to sit alongside him in the House of Keys (Malew and Santon); Sir Miles Walker CBE LLD (hc), and in this chamber. There is no doubt at all in my mind and Mrs P M Crowe (Rushen); with Prof T StJ N Bates, that the honour is very well deserved and that it is a mark Clerk of Tynwald. of respect, I think, both to Sir Miles and to the whole of his family and to the extended family around Belle Abbey that he is held in such high regard still in his own local village and parish and I am both personally delighted and I am sure that the House equally agrees in its entirety with The Lord Bishop took the prayers. your remarks this morning.

APOLOGIES FOR ABSENCE Members: Hear, hear. (Applause)

The President: Hon. members, we have apologies for Sir Miles Walker: Mr President, Mr Speaker, hon. absence from the hon. member of the Council, Mr Barton, members, I appreciate very much the remarks that you have for this morning and from the hon. member of the Council, both made this morning to this hon. Court and I know that Mr Delaney, and the hon. member for Douglas South, Mr Mary would wish me to also express her appreciation to Cretney, who will be away on departmental business you both and to all those who have sent us messages of tomorrow. support. This award has obviously given us much pleasure as a family and I would wish to place on record my appreciation CONDOLENCES TO THE CLERK OF TYNWALD to them for their consistent and tireless support because I believe it is they that have made my political career possible. The President: Now, hon. members, as with each new I have considered it a tremendous -pleasure and a year, indeed with each new day, there is inevitably a blend privilege to represent the people of Rushen in this hon. of emotions to confront us. Today we extend to the learned Court since 1976. Their support for my candidature over Clerk of Tynwald our condolences on the death of his five elections has been unstinting. I thank them for it and mother. One of life's real people, she was a lady of charm, hope that in some way they can share in the pleasure of consideration and character. the award that has been made.

Apologies for Absence Condolences to the Clerk of Tynwald Congratulations to Sir Miles Rawstron Walker on Conferment of Knighthood TM TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 1997

My greatest joy with this award is the pleasure that it Hydrocarbon Oil Duties Act 1986 (Amendment) appears to have brought to so many people, many of whom (No. 4) Order 1996 (SD No. 707/96) I do not know, but I have received so many messages from the good people of this Island that I have been overwhelmed Customs and Excise Act 1993 - and I would like to take this opportunity to thank them Customs and Excise Acts (Application) publicly for those messages of support. (Amendment) (No. 3) Order 1996 (SD No. 669/96) Finally, just a word about my friends and colleagues in Export of Goods (Control) (Amendment No. 4) this hon. place, especially the ones that I have shared this Order 1996 (Application) Order 1996 (SD No. 705/ Rushen bench with over the years for their courteousness 96) and friendship. We do not always see eye to eye, and that Dual-Use and Related Goods (Export Control) is right and if we did this hon. place would not be fulfilling Regulations 1996 (Application) Order 1996 (SD No. the purpose for which it is designed. 704/96) I do hope that the award I have received can in some way reflect the importance of the office of Chief Minister Customs and Excise Management Act 1986 - and the continuing evolution of our parliamentary Customs and Excise Management Act 1986 institution so that it will better serve the people that we are (Amendment) Order 1996 (SD No. 670/96) here to represent, that is, our constituents. Thank you, Mr President, Mr Speaker, very much. Excise Duties (Surcharges or Rebates) Act 1986 - Excise Duties (Surcharges or Rebates) Act 1986 (Amendment) Order 1996 (SD No. 672/96) PAPERS LAID BEFORE THE COURT Financial Supervision Act 1988 - The President: Hon. members, I call upon the learned Financial Supervision (Authorised Collective Clerk to lay papers. Investment Schemes) (Amendment) Regulations 1996 (SD No. 678/96) The Clerk: I lay before the Court: Financial Supervision (Scheme Particulars) (Amendment) Regulations 1996 (SD No. 679/96) Harbours (Isle of Man) Act 1961 - Harbour Dues (Merchant Vessels) (1997) Alcoholic Liquor Duties Act 1986 - Regulations 1996 (SD No. 724/96) Alcoholic Liquor Duties Act 1986 (Amendment) Harbour Dues (Fishing Vessels and Tugs) (1997) (No. 2) Order 1996 (SD No. 706/96) Regulations 1996 (SD No. 725/96) Harbour Dues (Pleasure Vessels and House Boats) Value Added Tax Act 1996 - (1997) Regulations 1996 (SD No. 726/96) Value Added Tax (Amendment) (No. 4) Order 1996 (SD No. 708/96) European Communities (Isle of Man) Act 1973 - Value Added Tax (Increase of Registration Limits) European Communities (Misuse of Drugs) Order 1996 (SD No. 709/96) (Application) Order 1996 (SD No. 600/96) Widowed Father's Allowance Scheme 1994 - Social Security Act 1982 - Widowed Father's Allowance Scheme 1994 Social Security Legislation (Application) (No. 11) (Amendment) Scheme 1996 (GC No. 52/96) Order 1996 (SD No. 719/96) Social Security Administration Act 1992 Retirement Pension (Premium) Scheme 1993 - (Application) (Amendment) Order 1996 (SD No. Retirement Pension (Premium) Scheme 1993 720/96) (Amendment) Scheme 1996 (GC No. 51/96) Social Security Legislation (Application)(No. 12) Order 1996 (SD No. 721/96) Fishing Vessels (Financial Assistance) (Amendment) Scheme - Merchant Shipping Registration 1991 - Fishing Vessels (Financial Assistance) Merchant Shipping Registration Regulations 1996 (Amendment) Scheme 1996 (CG No. 41/96) (SD No. 689/96) Hill Sheep Subsidy Scheme - Merchant Shipping (Masters and Seamen) Act 1979 - Hill Sheep Subsidy Scheme 1996 (GC No.54/96) Merchant Shipping (Manning and Training) Regulations 1996 (SD No. 723/96) Church Act 1992 - Merchant Shipping (Masters and Seamen) Church Commissioners for the Isle of Man (Revocation) Order 1996 (SD No. 722/96) (Constitution) Resolution 1996 (SD No. 696/96)

Hydrocarbon Oil Duties Act 1986 - Insurance Act 1986 - Hydrocarbon Oil Duties Act 1986 (Amendment) Insurance (Amendment) Regulations 1996 (SD No. (No. 3) Order 1996 (SD No. 671/96) 712/96)

Papers Laid Before the Court TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 1997 T65

Insurance (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 1996 Interim Report on Rushen Abbey by the Council of (SD No. 713/96) Ministers dated January 1997.

Council of Ministers Act 1990 - Assignment of Ministers (No. 3) Instrument 1996 EXTERNAL AFFAIRS - (CG No. 48/96) HM GOVERNMENT'S RESPONSIBILITIES — QUESTION BY MR RODAN Government Departments Act 1987 - Appointment of Members of Departments (No. 2) The President: Turning now to the question paper, hon. Instrument 1996 (GC No. 50/96) members, I call upon the hon. member for Garff, Mr Rodan to ask the question standing in his name. Hydrocarbon Oil Duties Act 1986 - Hydrocarbon Oil Duties (Marine Voyages Relief) Mr Rodan: Mr President, I beg leave to ask the Chief Regulations 1996 (SD No. 668/96) Minister: Value Added Tax Act 1996 - What is the scope of HM Government's Value Added Tax (Amendment) (No. 3) Regulations responsibilities for the Isle of Man's external affairs in 1996 (SD No. 703/96) representing the Isle of Man internationally?

Customs and Excise Acts 1986 - The President: The Chief Minister to reply. Excise Duties Order 1996 (SD No. 701196) Mr Gelling: Mr President, the constitutional position Alcoholic Liquor Duties Act 1986 - is that the Island is not a sovereign independent state and Wine and Made-Wine (Amendment) Regulations is not able to be a separate signatory to international 1996 (SD No. 702/96) agreements between sovereign states. The United Kingdom is responsible for the Island's Medicines Act 1976 - external relations and the Island does not have an Medicines (Prescription Only) (Amendment) Order independent right to representation at or participation in 1996 (SD No. 675196) international agreements. The United Kingdom represents Medicines (Sale or Supply) (Miscellaneous the Island and is expected to have regard to the Island's Provisions) Regulations 1996 (SD No. 676196) views but it is not required to set out an Isle of Man position Medicines (Standard Provisions for Licences and separate from its own and it may decline to do so if it feels Certificates) Regulations 1996 (SD No 441196) that to do so would be contrary to the United Kingdom's Medicines (Pharmacy and General Sale - wider interests. Exemption) Order 1996 (SD No. 677196) In addition, the United Kingdom has the discretion to invite the Island to be represented within its delegation to Police Act 1993 - an international conference where such representation Isle of Man Police (Amendment) Regulations 1996 would be appropriate and helpful. (SD 645/96) The President: A supplementary, sir? Currency Act 1992 - Currency (Chinese New Year Crowns) Order 1996 Mr Rodan: Thank you, Mr President. Could I ask the (SD No. 718/96) Chief Minister what is the situation when the Isle of Man Appointed Day Orders - policy or view is in conflict with the United Kingdom? Is Territorial Sea (Rights to )Act 1996 (Appointed it the case that we simply accept the United Kingdom Day) Order 1996 (SD No. 716/96) Government's view on the matter, resulting in our having Electricity Act 1996 (Appointed Day) Order 1996 no opportunity to have our views presented, or do you see (SD No. 688/96) it as a concern that the United Kingdom should have a Advocates Act 1995 (Appointed Day) (No. 3) Order duty constitutionally towards its dependent territories to 1996 (SD No. 690/96) represent their views? Water Pollution Act 1993 (Appointed Day) (No. 2) Order 1996 (SD No. 682/96) Mr Gelling: Mr President, as I stated in the answer, there is not a duty. However, the Island's position has to Reports and Accounts - be taken into consideration, and basically I think the hon. Isle of Man Water Authority Report and Financial questioner is and has been looking at the Kilbrandon report Statements for the year ended 31st March 1996. which of course does state, 'But if the Islands take up and, Report and Financial after consultation, maintain a position which is not Statements for the year ended 31st March 1996. untenable or unreasonable, the United Kingdom Gaelic Broadcasting Committee Report for the year Government should, we think, attempt to secure its ended 31st March 1996. international acceptance, even though this may make the

External Affairs — HM Government's Responsibilities — Question by Mr Rodan T66 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 1997

Government's negotiating position more difficult.' (1) What steps have been taken to extend international However, that was in the item 1503 which was referring protection to the basking shark, a Manx protected to the situation whereby the statement read, 'The Islands species; cannot expect, without very good cause, to be excluded from an agreement which lays down minimum standards (2) have discussions taken place with the Home Office of conduct if exemption would seriously damage the object with a view to ensuring that HM Government, on of the agreement or prevent the United Kingdom's behalf of the Government of the Isle of Man, participation in it', which of course is different to the proposes to the conference of the Convention in k situation perhaps that the questioner illustrates. But of International Trade in Endangered Species to be course they did then in their conclusion state quite clearly, held in June 1997 in Zimbabwe that the basking `...we must face the fact that cases where there is an shark be included in appendix II of the convention; irreconcilable conflict of view may still arise. In such cases, and if so we are firmly of the opinion that the United Kingdom Government has, and should retain, the right to decide'. (3) what are the results of those discussions?

The President: Asupplementary from the hon. member The President: The Chief Minister to reply. for Onchan, Mr Karran. Mr Gelling: Mr President, following on from the Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, would the Chief Minister not previous question of course here we had a situation where agree with me that the time has come for our government in November we did make representations to the United in the Isle of Man to start acting like a national government Kingdom Government proposing that the basking shark and stop acting like some sort of colonial government of be included in appendix II of the Convention in the United Kingdom? And will he be seeing it as a priority International Trade in Endangered Species, known as to change the present state of affairs in order that we have CITES. A conference of CITES is to be held in June of no links or very few links, apart from with the British Royal this year in Zimbabwe and we were advised that proposals Family if that is what the people of the Isle of Man want, for including new species in appendix II at the conference to the Isle of Man but not being at the beck and call of a would have to be submitted to the secretariat by 10th foreign government, namely the United Kingdom? January. An initial decision by the UK Department of the Environment not to propose the inclusion of the basking Mr Gelling: Mr President, as I have said, we are not a shark in appendix II of CITES was received on 3rd January. sovereign state and therefore the United Kingdom Further representations were made seeking a review of that Government does obviously represent our views and is a decision but these, unfortunately, were to no avail and on member of certain conferences and associations in which 9th January we were advised that the Department of the they as a sovereign state deal with other sovereign states, Environment had declined to change its mind. Protection so therefore the Isle of Man is not in a position to be able of the basking shark will not, therefore, be proposed by to have a direct input into that particular forum. So the United Kingdom in Zimbabwe in June. therefore, in answer to the hon. member, that situation does However, the matter does not rest there. There are three not exist at the present time and that is what we have to further developments. Firstly, the United Kingdom is live with at the time. currently reviewing the species which are protected under its own Wildlife and Countryside Act of 1981 and we are The President: A supplementary, sir. pressing the case of the basking shark and are hopeful that the United Kingdom will accept that case. That would Mr Karran: A further supplementary, Eaghtyrane. significantly extend the area where the basking shark is Would the Chief Minister not agree with me that the time protected. has come for us to get on with that path of becoming a Secondly, we have advised the Home Office that we sovereign state and what is his Council of Ministers' policy would wish to see the issue raised again in time for the as far as this is concerned? next CITES conference which we understand is to take place in the year 2000 and we have asked that at an Mr Gelling: Mr President, the hon. questioner poses a appropriate time an invitation be extended to the Isle of question which has not been as yet considered. Man Government to make a submission in support of protecting the basking shark for that conference. Thirdly, although the basking shark will not be proposed for protection at this year's CITES conference, there will BASKING SHARK — INTERNATIONAL be at the same conference a debate on sharks in general PROTECTION — QUESTION BY MR RODAN which will aim to develop an action plan. If that plan is a not successful, protection may be considered at the next The President: Question 2, the hon. member for Garff, conference. Mr Rodan. An invitation to attend the CITES conference in Zimbabwe in June as part of the United Kingdom Mr Rodan: Mr President, I beg leave to ask the Chief delegation is to be extended to the Minister: so that the position and case for the basking shark can be

Basking Shark — International Protection — Question by Mr Rodan TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 1997 T67

promoted. This offer of a place in the delegation is, I feel Mr North: Mr President, would the Chief Minister sure, a result of the pressure that we and others have applied agree with me that Joan Walley MP should be thanked • and is a welcome recognition on the part of the United and indeed congratulated for her active help and interest Kingdom Government that there is a genuine case to be in this matter? made for protecting the basking shark. Mr Cretney: Hear, hear. The President: A supplementary, sir. Mr Gelling: Yes indeed, sir. As I said in the original Mr Rodan: Mr President, did the Isle of Man answer, it was pressure from ourselves and others and Joan Government, when requesting the British Government to Walley was one of the others indeed who has a great table this proposal on its behalf, not suggest to the British interest. She has been to the Island and she used her Government that if it was not entirely happy with the influence in the UK Government to be able to actually get content of the proposal, it should either seek a reservation a meeting with John Gummer, and that certainly has helped for itself or indeed seek a reservation separately for the the cause. Isle of Man, having regard to the fact that we rely on the United Kingdom as the agent for our external affairs? Mr Downie: Mr President, I would like to ask the Chief Minister a question. In view of the Manx Government's Mr Gelling: At the request of the basking shark project, involvement in environmental matters in the past and in the Isle of Man made their representations to the United particular , we have always gone and sought Kingdom Government. Now, of course we have to recognise that in our own waters the basking shark is support from the Irish Government. Could the Chief protected, but we have a situation where in the United Minister give an undertaking to the Court today that he Kingdom's own waters the basking shark is not protected will open up a dialogue with the Irish Government and in and they, as I have said already, are looking at this under particular their Department of Environment and Fisheries their own quinquennial conference where they will be with a view to them applying pressure to protect the basking discussing this very point. shark? I feel certain that there is a considerable amount of Now, I think the situation was quite clear, that they did support in Ireland for the protection of this species which not feel that they could go forward with a case to the CITES is also causing concern around the Irish coast as well as conference, where other sovereign states obviously are the Irish Sea. attending, with a project which they felt uncomfortable with because in fact they could not put forward the case to Mr Gelling: Mr President, I would suggest that any them in a positive manner when they themselves had not support for the case as put forward with the Isle of Man considered the issue for their own waters. will be welcome and I would certainly hope that this is So I think basically we had a situation whereby the Isle where, when the British conference is on, the quinquennial of Man's case was accepted and we took possibly what is conference, this support might very well come forward, the unusual step of myself writing to John Gummer, which but certainly the suggestion from the member is welcomed. is outside the formal way in which this is done, to bring his attention to the fact that this was something we held Mr Rodan: Mr President, is the Chief Minister aware very seriously and it was a concern to us, and I believe of a parallel situation concerning Hong Kong? Is he aware that that is why we now have a situation where we are that in 1990 the British Government strongly fought to being invited to send a delegate to Zimbabwe to be able to have ivory banned internationally and fought to have the promote the case to be then put forward at the following African elephant included in appendix I of CITES and conference, but I think basically we have to make our case having done so, promptly took out a reservation on behalf in time for the United Kingdom's own conference so that of Hong Kong whose interests would have been adversely it can be aired there and therefore they can take it then affected? Can I ask him why was Hong Kong able to have forward at the next conference. its international interests promoted by the British So basically I think the original reply to us was that Government on a policy issue where it was totally at odds they did not have sufficient technical data, and I was with London, yet when it is not Hong Kong but the Isle of interested in the press release that was issued by the basking Man and protecting not elephants but the basking shark shark project where they said that the politicians in their London is apparently unwilling to act? Does the Chief wisdom had not agreed that it was a good case. Well, our Minister think this is a satisfactory situation? information is that it was studied very closely by the scientific experts who of course are advising them on other Mr Gelling: Mr President, I am aware of that situation projects as well. which of course was a one-off and of course it was because So I think the situation was time, the time given for it to of the ivory trade in Hong Kong and they were pleading be discussed was short, and I am looking at the positive for a six-month reservation so that they could actually wind side and that is that it will now go forward and I am it down. I am well aware of it, but of course again I have delighted that we will be able to send a representative to to stress that at the time between the 5th when this case actually put the case forward and promote it at this was put forward to the Home Office we actually did not conference. have time even to raise a parallel with that particular case.

Basking Shark — International Protection — Question by Mr Rodan T68 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 1997

CUSTOMS AND EXCISE AGREEMENT - decision, which is so important, particularly to the people QUESTION BY MR LOWEY who pay the VAT?

The President: Question 3, the hon. member of the Mr Gelling: Mr President, I would suggest that the Council, Mr Lowey. Treasury and in particular the customs division are constantly reviewing, they are constantly watching what Mr Lowey: I beg leave to ask the Chief Minister: is happening. We have in the past had inquiries, both internal and external, and I would suggest that that is Is government's policy regarding the Customs and probably how it will continue, and at this time, as I have Excise Agreement to remain unchanged? already stated to the original questioner, the policy is quite clear as far as I am concerned, but that does not say that The President: The Chief Minister to reply. we do not continue to investigate, review and, if needs be, ask for outside consultation. Mr Gelling: Mr President, the answer to the question is, yes, our current policy is to maintain the Customs and Mr Delaney: Mr President, in thanking the Chief Excise Agreement but obviously to seek flexibility within Minister for his reply, does the Chief Minister not accept, as we all in here do, as elected representatives in the House the agreement to take local decisions which reflect local of Keys and we as representatives of the Council, it will needs. This approach gives us the assurance of continuing be a decision for Tynwald and rather than being led by the government revenues which are necessary to maintain officers would it not be better in this instance to be taking essential public services and continued and unimpeded part at a high political level so that we are not caught on access to the United Kingdom and worldwide markets for the hop by reports from officers but are actually involved our manufactured products. in those reports for the political-making decisions that we were sent here to make? Mr Cannan: Is the Chief Minister aware of the content of the European Commission document COM(96)328 Mr Gelling: Yes, as I have said, Mr President, I am not entitled 'A common system of VAT', and if so, is the Chief saying that this is not being looked at continually and I Minister aware that this document proposes to complete agree that any change will be a decision of this Court and the single European market by imposing a uniform VAT I would suggest that until such times as this Court is to system throughout the EU with taxing powers handed over change that particular decision or that agreement, that is by national governments to officials of a VAT committee how it will remain. in Brussels, and is the Chief Minister further aware that the VAT then will be an EU tax, the officials in Brussels Mr Cannan: Does the Chief Minister or his government will decide the VAT rates and the money will be collected have an opinion on the European document which I have by Brussels and distributed on a formula based on the mentioned, COM(96)328, which is at this present time statistics of consumption in the various countries? Chief being discussed in the treasuries of every nation in the Minister, if this uniform EU system of VAT is introduced - EU? So are we looking at it and do we have an opinion on and in Dublin it was discussed only last month by the it? chancellors of the exchequers of the various EU countries - would it not be in the best interests of the Isle of Man to Mr Gelling: Mr President, the Council of Ministers withdraw from the Customs and Excise Agreement and have not discussed it but I am quite sure that the Treasury introduce our own rates of VAT? will be and have been and I await their recommendations coming from Treasury, but I have to repeat that as far as Mr Gelling: Mr President, I am aware of what the hon. the Council of Ministers are concerned it has not yet been member is stating but as I have stated to the original discussed. questioner, the policy at present is quite clear, that the Customs and Excise Agreement is in place and as until The President: A further supplementary, sir. such time as we obviously watch with concern and interest at what is happening at the European rounds, that is the Mr Cannan: A final supplementary. When the situation which will exist until such times as we are government has an opinion on that document will it be persuaded - and it would have to be exceedingly good made available to members of Tynwald? persuasion - that it has changed. Mr Gelling: If there is a suggested change, certainly Mr Delaney: As the Chief Minister is aware, we are the members will be the first to know. the last people that are usually informed of changes in Europe and we are usually informed by directives. Would the Chief Minister not agree with me, rather than wait for DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORT - the situation to occur that the hon. member for Michael FINANCIAL CONTROLS — VIREMENTS - has indicated, it would be better to have a high-powered QUESTION BY MR LOWEY committee set up at this stage, so rather than be active after the event, to be proactive so that the people of the The President: Question 4, the hon. member of the Isle of Man will not be rushed or panicked into any Council, Mr Lowey.

Customs and Excise Agreement — Question by Mr Lowey Department of Transport — Financial Controls — Virements — Question by Mr Lowey TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 1997 T69

Mr Lowey: I beg leave to ask the Minister for the are sought for increased expenditure. But I cannot Treasury: emphasise too strongly the importance, particularly at this time of the year when budget preparations are under way, (1) Are you satisfied that proper financial controls are of departments looking at their targets and aiming to stay being operated by the Department of Transport; and within those targets so that we can obtain a proper, prudent financial way forward for the Island. (2) can the department transfer moneys by virement from one head of expenditure to another; and if so Mr Lowey: A final supplementary. The last part of my original question was that the Treasury has to be informed (i) what is the maximum sum which is permitted to when there are being major virements from one heading be transferred by this procedure, and to another. Is the Treasury satisfied - and I welcome the opportunity of getting a copy of the financial regulations - (ii) does the Treasury have to be informed before or that the interpretations are tight enough, in other words after such a transfer is made? that it cannot be left to individuals to interpret their virements to their liking? In other words, is it a flexible The President: The Minister for the Treasury to reply. virement heading? In other words, are the regulations tight enough? Is he satisfied that they are tight enough? Mr Corkill: Thank you, Mr President. In answer to part (1) of the question I can indicate that Treasury expects Mr Corkill: Well, Mr President, although obviously it all departments to operate proper financial controls in is so important to have financial controls on departments, accordance with the financial regulations, the latest version it is also important that departments of government have a of which was issued in July of 1996. certain amount of flexibility to operate the budget in the Last year both the Department of Transport and the way that their policies have directed them and policies that Department of Health of Social Security overspent their have been directed by this hon. Court. Therefore I think it budgets and as such could be said to be not operating proper is something that has to be looked at on a continual basis financial controls. It is of vital importance that departments to see whether there is enough pressure on departments to stay within budget and I have been given assurances that make sure that they are complying with financial the Department of Transport will stay within budget for regulations. But generally speaking, departments do do that 1996-97. and the virements that do occur are usually minor amounts In answer to part (2), yes, the department can transfer where you are adjusting subheads in the budget process moneys by virement from one head of expenditure to and making best use of the resources available, but I would another in accordance with financial regulation FD 15, emphasise again that the main headings of course have to Wirements', and, (i), there is no maximum sum laid down have Treasury approval. in financial regulations and, (ii), the Treasury does not have to be informed before a transfer is made from one Mr Lowey: I thank the minister for his reply. subheading to another subheading within the main head of service but does have to give prior approval to virements between main heads of service, loan charges, subhead and VAT — EUROPEAN UNION DIRECTIVE virements which will result in increased expenditure in — QUESTION BY MR RODAN future years or an increase in the number of staff. If the member so wishes, I can provide him with a copy of the The President: Question 5, the hon. member for Garff, relevant financial direction. Mr Rodan.

Mr Lowey: Can I ask a supplementary to the minister? Mr Rodan: Mr President, I beg leave to ask the Minister As the minister in his opening remarks said, he expects for the Treasury: departments to keep within their financial targets. Does the Treasury not have a duty to oversee the department's In respect of annex H to the VAT sixth directive of expenditure and do they wait for things to happen before the European Union, which categories of goods and they react? In other words, if a department is in financial services do you propose to make the subject of negotiation difficulties part way through the year, does the Treasury with the United Kingdom for reduced rates of VAT, under wait for the end of the year before correcting it or do they the flexibility afforded to non-exportable categories within move in when they see the situation arising before their the Customs and Excise Agreement? eyes? The President: The Minister for the Treasury to reply. Mr Corkill: Mr President, one would hope to achieve a situation where there is ongoing monitoring and this is Mr Corkill: Mr President, we have in the past been certainly the view of Treasury. If departments are having able, after careful negotiation, to secure variances of VAT problems with their financial targets, then there again rates between the two services and within the terms of our Treasury would expect those departments to come to agreement. Hon. members will be familiar with the reduced Treasury to discuss those problems and of course, as we rate of VAT of 5 per cent now being applied to hotel know in this hon. Court, sometimes supplementary votes accommodation.

VAT — European Union Directive — Question by Mr Rodan T70 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 1997

It is perhaps important to understand that because we periodicals. Again, these supplies are zero-rated for VAT share a common customs area and goods and services can purposes in both jurisdictions. move freely between ourselves and the United Kingdom, Category 7 covers admissions to shows, theatres, it is not possible to have such goods and services which circuses, fairs and amusement parks. Recent developments are exportable attracting different rates of VAT unless in this area would allow government to exempt admissions customs barriers are set up. to such events but we have elected to maintain the status The cost of any change of VAT liability would have to quo with the United Kingdom. Many of these activities be borne by the Island. This may result, because of the are run by the government in the Isle of Man and it would quirks of the sharing arrangements, in the Island losing not be cost-effective to absorb the inherent costs associated substantially more than the tax foregone. with the exemption. My department is always looking for ways in which Category 8 - the services of writers, composers, the Island can become more competitive in the area of performing artists and their royalties. Because of the free indirect taxation but at the same time we must also collect movement of such people between the two jurisdictions, VAT and duties to finance government services, which are these are not non-exportable. Most of our resident authors, tending to expand faster than our income. We also have to composers and artists are VAT-registered, as are their balance our needs with those of our partner in the customers, and as such there would be no benefit in seeking agreement. Our current agreement is a cornerstone in our a reduced rate. indirect taxation policy and therefore failure to recognise Category 9 - the supply of construction, renovation and or take on board the needs and aspirations of our partner alteration of housing provided as part of a social policy. could result in our agreement being terminated, and this is The construction of new domestic accommodation and the not consistent with existing Tynwald policy. alteration of a listed building already qualify for a zero It would perhaps be helpful if I was to outline to hon. rate to be levied in both the Isle of Man and the United members in brief the goods and services which may be Kingdom. The question of renovation of existing domestic subject to reduced rates of VAT in various member states buildings and the standard rate of tax which is applied to which are included in annex H of the sixth council VAT such work and whether to relieve such work from VAT is directive of 17th May 1977 and then explain the a matter which has been raised before, as recently as alternatives that have been available to us. October of last year, and is often considered by the Category 1 deals with foodstuffs for human and animal Treasury. I find that I concur with the stated views of my consumption. Generally basic foodstuffs and animal feed, predecessor in that by taking such a broad-brush approach, with the exception of pet food, are zero-rated for VAT this would be expensive to the Island. Any proposed relief purposes both here on the Island and in the United would not be easily targeted or administered. For example, Kingdom. We therefore see no reason to seek changes to it would apply to wealthy owners of large properties as be made in this area and would support the view of the well as lower income tenants. As the Treasury may have United Kingdom that the existing zero-rate provisions made clear to the questioner previously, if we were to take should apply. unilateral action, we would be in breach of the agreement Category 2 covers water supplies. The water supply in and the United Kingdom could, if our interpretation of the the Isle of Man falls under government control and as such clause differed from the European Union's, terminate the domestic water supplies are not subject to VAT. agreement. Having reviewed this matter, I feel there are Commercial supplies of water to industry are standard- better mechanisms available to government to meet the rated, but in limited circumstances. The VAT charged is challenge of urban renewal. normally recovered by VAT-registered traders in both Category 10 relates to supplies of goods and services jurisdictions. Therefore we see and have no desire for of a kind normally intended for use in agricultural change in this area. production. Although these supplies are standard-rated in Category 3 relates to pharmaceutical products used for both areas, as virtually all farmers are VAT-registered and health care and for medical and veterinary purposes. Where able to recover any VAT incurred, there is no advantage in these supplies relate to humans, the selling of prescribed pursuing a reduced rate. medicines does not attract VAT. However, the sale of patent Category 11 relates to accommodation provided by medicines, non-prescribed drugs and veterinary services hotels and similar establishments, and as hon. members are chargeable at the standard rate of tax. Because are aware, we have secured and introduced a reduced rate medicines are articles, they are goods, there is no potential in this area. for flexibility under the agreement. Category 12 relates to admission to sporting events, Category 4 deals with medical equipment, aids and other category 13 relates to the use of sporting facilities, and appliances like children's car seats. Again, the majority of with these areas there is no desire to seek change. these supplies are zero-rated both here and in the United Category 14 - supplies of goods and services by Kingdom. recognised charities. Such supplies can be zero-rated, Category 5 - transport of passengers and their exempt or standard-rated in both jurisdictions, the liability accompanying luggage. With the exception of taxis, these of many such supplies having been determined by supplies are generally zero-rated in both countries. We do precedent, making this a very complicated area of the tax not see any advantage in a change here. to administer. Some of the supplies in this category are Category 6 includes books and similar printed matter, also goods and are exportable and, as previously outlined, supplies by libraries, lending libraries, newspapers and we must maintain the same VAT rates for such goods. As

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such, and bearing in mind the limits of our current I obviously take on board very seriously the administration, we would not seek a change in this area. developments that are occurring within Europe and the Category 15 relates to supplies, services by undertakers changes, the potential changes, to indirect taxation and the and cremation services. The services relating to interments European harmonisation of tax. This is a major issue for and cremation are exempt but there are a few ancillary Europe, it is a major issue for the United Kingdom. services, for example flowers, that are not. These rules Certainly, if, as the hon. member suggests, we are entering apply in both jurisdictions and we would not regard this a phase where VAT is to be levied on food - and a figure of area, in terms of the revenue, as being significant enough 15 per cent was mentioned - I am sure there would be a to seek a change. complete uproar throughout the United Kingdom and Category 16 relates to medical and dental care. Again, certainly if that was the way that the United Kingdom these services are exempt in both countries. Government was to progress, then that would certainly Category 17, which is the last category, covers services call into question the areas where we have agreement on supplied in connection with street-cleaning, refuse this common customs arrangement because politically that collection and waste treatment. Whilst some such supplies might not be acceptable here. Certainly it is not acceptable would be chargeable at the standard rate of tax in the United to my thinking to start racking up VAT on issues that at the Kingdom because much of this work has been contracted moment are clearly exempt. out to private enterprise, in the Isle of Man it is government But, as with previous questions, it underlines the point, itself that performs the bulk of these services and while and this point, I do not think, has always come over, that this remains the case a public authority is not required to in fact the Treasury is continuously monitoring the situation charge VAT on such services. So again we would not look with regard to the customs arrangement, which without to effect a change in this area. doubt at the moment is certainly in the Island's interests. I think that it should have become clear to hon. members, There is no doubt about that in my mind. But obviously as I have explained each category - and I would thank that does not mean we have to have tunnel vision and not members for bearing with me, that there are these 17 look at what is going on in Europe and all the directives categories - that many of the categories are already afforded that come out of Europe are scrutinised very thoroughly. an exemption or zero rate in both the Isle of Man and the United Kingdom before such goods or services have an Mr Cannan: Mr President, in view of the answer of impact on the public. We have also obtained concessions the hon. Treasury Minister, will the Treasury now agree to in the tourism sector. I can see no opportunity in the study the progress of the uniform VAT system which is immediate future for any further alterations which would being discussed in the treasuries of Europe in terms of at best be a cost to the government and at worst place the European Commission document COM(96)328 and give current arrangements in jeopardy. an updating and briefing report? Because the principle of that document is that taxing powers are handed over by To seek to create reduced rates outside those listed in national governments to officials of the VAT Committee the rates directive annex H would be ultra vires - the sixth in Brussels and if we want to have our own internal directive - and the UK would be required by the adjustments, we will not be discussing with the UK Community to rectify that situation. The remedy, if we Government but with officials in Brussels as to whether were to refuse to comply, would have to be termination of we can have flexibility on the European rate. the agreement, which would be very costly to the Island in both revenue and inconvenience terms to our residents, Mr Corkill: As the hon. member is aware, our visitors, traders and the industrial manufacturing sector. arrangement with the United Kingdom and protocol 3 have Thank you, Mr President. served this Island extremely well and we should not rush into any thought of changing that prematurely. Mr Rodan: Mr President, does the hon. minister agree The hon. member is asking for up-to-date information that it is annex H itself which gives to the UK its own VAT and up-to-date opinion on where we go with the directive flexibility within Europe? Does he also agree that that that he has mentioned and that is not a problem because flexibility is about to disappear when VAT is made uniform we can provide information for members and certainly it throughout the European Union and that it is only a matter is no intention of mine to keep members in the dark. We of time before the people of the Isle of Man have to start will progress this very logically. But at the end of the day paying tax of at least 15 per cent on food, children's clothes, it is quite clear that the United Kingdom itself has not got bus fares, new houses, newspapers? Will he therefore state a clear way forward in these areas and so - what progress he hopes to make while there is still time for negotiating with the United Kingdom within the Mr Cannan: It has. Mr Clarke discussed it in Dublin! flexibility apparently afforded by the Customs and Excise Agreement? Mr Corkill: - one must be aware that there are some major issues to be settled elsewhere before it is clear what Mr Corkill: Mr President, I think it is quite clear that impact they will have on the Island, but certainly members in fact the amount of flexibility that it is possible to can be kept up to date, can be informed and that is not a negotiate under the existing agreement is limited. It is problem. limited because both parties have to agree: that is the Flexibility has been arranged in certain areas where it essence of an agreement. suits the Island. The authorities in the United Kingdom

VAT — European Union Directive — Question by Mr Rodan T72 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 1997 are willing to listen to us and talk to us with regard to our Mr Delaney: Two supplementaries, Mr President. Is customs common arrangements. Having said that, it takes the minister aware that his statement here this morning in two to have an agreement and we must be aware of that, relation to the inclusion of VAT on food et cetera could be that in fact if, perhaps even in the short term, the Isle of light years away is similar to a statement made in this Court Man was to take a stance that affected the agreement, then by a predecessor of his in the year 1980 and now the VAT the UK in fact could terminate it, if we did not comply that was light years away is on fuel and light, so the years with that agreement. could be only a decade away before we get to that, which So there is change in Europe, there is a continuing is not long in political terms? Would he agree with me on change in Europe. Only this week there were also reports that? about harmonisation of direct taxation. Secondly, bearing in mind that in the past it has been convenient politically to blame the British Government Mr Delaney: Hear, hear! And that is a frightener. and our automatic following on VAT rates, will it not be the case in the future, the very near future, when we will Mr Corkill: The European Union is a hotbed of debate, just fmd it convenient to blame the people behind offices, there is a hotbed of issues. There are people with certain in offices, in the European Community for the increase in agendas. Sometimes they materialise quickly, sometimes the VAT on our people? they get buried again. The one on direct taxation is light years away, I would suggest. Maybe indirect taxation Mr Corkin: I would just like to make one thing clear, should be occupying our minds more. This is the feeling I Mr President, and that is that negotiations regarding the get from hon. members' questioning. It certainly occupies customs arrangements will be with the United Kingdom my mind and I will, as Treasury Minister, make sure that and not with Brussels. I would not like members or people members are well informed about potential changes. to feel that we would be directly negotiating with Brussels on these issues. Mr Downie: A supplementary. The minister made To put the thing in perspective, I take the point that reference, I think it was in section 6 or section 7, that it there is now VAT levied on fuel. That was a very, very may be possible for a reduction in VAT for building and political issue and it ended up at a reduced rate. But there construction materials when used in conjunction with what is no doubt that the policy of indirect taxation is to broaden he referred to as a social policy. Now, I would ask the its scope, but one has to make political reality out of this minister if we could possibly have this particular section, as well, in as much as the Labour Party have categorically `social policy', investigated and does it actually cover stated they will not support the introduction of VAT on situations where we are trying to stimulate inner town foodstuffs. regeneration, avenues involving the private sector and the Now, these are the major issues. That will not happen construction of local authority housing or houses which in Europe if the United Kingdom has a veto, and the United will be used to promote improvements in the social system? Kingdom does have a veto on that situation, so these issues Because I think that is an area that we should be looking are live issues. We must be aware of them, we must be at. very clear as to what is happening, but to think or to give the impression that they are being resolved very quickly I Mr Corkill: Mr President, that is an area, I think, that think is incorrect. There is a progressive change and we has caught the imagination of a number of members during have to keep our eye on the situation. the election period and after the election, that in fact there seems to be an imbalance between the situation where new The President: The final supplementary on this building on greenfield sites has a zero rate and it seems to question, the hon. member for Garff. be that the application of 171/2 per cent standard rate on renovation of areas that we all wish to see renovated and Mr Rodan: Thank you, Mr President. Following the come alive again is seen as a handicap. That is an area that successful bed-and-breakfast concession negotiated in is subject also of a motion later on in this agenda paper 1994, can the Treasury Minister tell us in which category and it might be more appropriate to get all the issues out at is the next concession currently being explored with the that time. But certainly Treasury has already been in United Kingdom likely to fall? negotiation - or discussion is the right word - with the Department of Local Government and the Environment at Mr Corkill: Mr President, you could look at the the budget submissions stage of last week on this very introduction of the reduced rate on hotel accommodation issue. in two ways: some might call it a success, some might not. From my point of view it would seem wrong that you Certainly from the objective of getting flexibility within have a blanket relief of VAT that might well apply to, as I the agreement, there is no doubt that is very successful. said in my opening comments, wealthy individuals with With regard to the impact on the industry, we have not large estates out in the country who might well get that had a measurement properly of that, I do not believe, at relief when in fact what we are trying to do is target finances this stage because there are so many other factors involved into urban regeneration. There may well be, and there are in tourism, so it is difficult to know whether it has actually in place already, schemes to do that very thing. Maybe the produced the purpose that it was intended for, but certainly funding of those schemes needs to be more supported so the concept of it is a good thing. that it actually has an effect. Those are the issues that are I have to say, as the Chief Minister has said and I have being discussed at the moment. said hopefully in my previous answers, that there are not

VAT — European Union Directive — Question by Mr Rodan TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 1997 T73

new areas on the agenda at the moment to open up on more eye-catching is also being considered. In addition, a flexibility. We have an agreement which is beneficial to heightened publicity campaign could be undertaken at the the Island as it stands today and beneficial to the Island time the questionnaires are posted, to stress the importance for the foreseeable future, but that does not mean that we of the survey to both government and employers. A further have to be blinkered. We will keep our eye on what is proposal under examination is to issue reminders by way happening. of personal contact, telephone and letter to private sector employers who have not responded within a reasonable period of time. Thank you, Mr President. EARNINGS SURVEY - QUESTION BY MR RODAN The President: A supplementary, sir?

The President: Question 6, the hon. member for Garff, Mr Rodan: Mr President, with only 4 per cent of full- Mr Rodan. time employees actually analysed, does the Treasury Minister agree with me that such incomplete data on Mr Rodan: Mr President, I beg to ask the Minister for household income fails to give an adequate picture of what the Treasury: is going on. Is it not the case that average male earnings of £371 per week and female of £274 per week are overstated (1) (a) What was the number of full-time employees in (Several members: Hear, hear.) due to the inadequate the Isle of Man analysed to produce the latest response from private employers who are paying low rates Isle of Man earnings survey, and of pay to their employees?

(b) what percentage of the total was this; Mr Corkill: The Treasury would certainly like to have a better response to this questionnaire and it has been (2) of the total private sector employers - considered fairly recently to make it compulsory. It is compulsory within the United Kingdom, Mr President. (a) what percentage were asked to take part in the Having said that, I think the view taken was that private, earnings survey,and very often small employers, have enough paperwork from government sent through the letterbox and that perhaps (b) what percentage responded; and this might be one form too many. Having said that, it is very important that we do get up-to-date information. (3) what proposals do you have to improve participation The hon. member calls into question the percentage in by the private sector in the survey? terms of statistical accuracy. I think that is the point he is trying to make, that the figures do not show the reality. The President: The Minister for Treasury to reply. Our view is that by knowing the nature of some of the businesses who do reply some of the larger employers do Mr Corkill: Mr President, in answer to part 1(a) of the not make returns and they tend to be some of the ones who question, I can reply that 943 full-time employees on adult actually pay better wages. So the figure is only a guide at rates of pay and whose pay was not affected by absence the end of the day, it is an average figure that is given out were included in the 1996 Isle of Man earnings survey, at the end of the day and therefore, as in all figures that are and in answer to part 1(b), this is around 4.1 per cent of all average, you have got those below and above. full-time employees in the Island. Certainly if the hon. member is suggesting that the In respect of part 2(a), 907 private sector employers system can be improved, I would agree with him. were contacted and this is thought to be around 30 per cent of all private sector employers in the Island. Mr Crowe: Mr President, would the Treasury Minister In answer to part 2(b) of the question, 48 per cent of the agree that all earnings records are kept on the income tax private sector employers contacted in the 1996 survey sent computers and would it not be simpler just to extract from in returns. the income tax department an average earnings result that In answer to part 3 of the question I should point out would take 100 per cent of the population? that co-operation in the earnings survey by the private sector is purely voluntary and we are most grateful for the Mr Corkill: In my briefing notes, Mr President, it says cooperation we receive. Although making co-operation in here it may be suggested that the information on the the survey compulsory by statute has been considered, earnings survey could be collected from either income tax concerns about compliance costs and confidentiality have or national insurance records. (Laughter) The fact is neither meant this option has not been progressed at this time. of these sources actually contains the detailed information Other options to improve participation by the private that is gathered in the earnings survey. To alter the tax and sector are under active consideration. These include national insurance records to include the required data simplification of the questionnaire by deletion of some would mean that some 40,000 people would be asked to questions and changes to the explanatory notes to make supply details of their hours of work and their pay for those the form easier for the employer to complete. A general hours of work, and 'hours of work' is obviously not improvement to the design of the questionnaire to make it included in those details at the present.

Earnings Survey — Question by Mr Rodan T74 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 1997

Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, would the minister not agree for the Court? Can he produce anybody on the Isle of Man with me that really the whole process as far as this is that believed the statistics that actually were produced by concerned is a waste of taxpayer's money, employing civil the Treasury? servants doing a job which only serves to divide the community (Mr Delaney: Hear, hear.) when such Mr Corkill: Certainly, like the hon. member for outrageous statements are made about the average earnings Council, I too share a jaundiced view on statistics at times. in this Island and does he not agree that he would be far I always remember a situation where somebody said that better employing civil servants doing something useful for cigarette smoking was the biggest cause of statistics that the Isle of Man than wasting their time bringing up had ever been. There has to be caution with statistics and I fictitious figures which are completely out of touch with take the comments that there is no comfort in the public reality? domain by these figures, but having said that, they are useful economic data as long as they are seen as such and Mr Corkin: Mr President, as I stated before, the figure not seen as the norm. An average is an average figure and is an average. It is used as a guide. It should not be regarded that is all statistics will ever prove. as the pay that any particular individual may be due or may actually take home. With regard to the economic affairs division, which the PRESCRIPTION CHARGES - hon. member is actually referring to, which produces this VALUE FOR MONEY COMMITTEE OPINION - data, they of course produce all sorts of economic data for QUESTION BY MR SINGER the Treasury, for the Government, and very useful information it is. Government could not operate without it The President: Question 7, the hon. member for and certainly, like him, I like to see civil servants earning Ramsey, Mr Singer. their dues - don't we all? - and certainly within the Treasury that is my intention. I think it is unfair to lay the blame on Mr Singer: Mr President, I beg to ask the Minister for officers of the economic affairs division because they Health and Social Security: would say that they want a statutory requirement to fill this data in. That may be the answer. There is an opinion Do you accept the opinion of the Value for Money on that either way. That is something that perhaps if the Committee in its October 1996 report that the present figures do not improve in terms of the number of people position where less than 20 per cent of prescriptions are who return forms, if there is improvement legislation will paid for by the patient 'could be reversed and that only not be necessary. Perhaps if we do not get an improved about 20 per cent should not be paying prescription response, then Treasury will reconsider that aspect. charges'? Mr Delaney: Mr President, after these figures were The President: The Minister for Health and Social produced and given once again to the public I asked a Security to reply. similar question as that placed on the question paper this morning and your predecessor Minister for the Treasury Mrs Christian: Mr President, the department is aware gave me an undertaking he would look at the possibility of the opinion of the Value for Money Committee with of getting compulsory returns so that the Isle of Man people would not have a situation where families are finding regard to the exemption criteria for health service difficulty trying to live within themselves because they prescriptions but has not yet had an opportunity to discuss see the figures that other people are supposedly earning. the matter. I should make it clear, however, that any Would this new Treasury Minister give me the undertaking, proposal to change the current exemption criteria can only rather than wait for a resolution in this Court to do it for be achieved by statute with the approval of this Court and him, to have compulsory returns made so we can find in these circumstances I can assure hon. members that exactly who is getting what and what we can do to help should the department consider it appropriate to make any those who are not getting anything? changes to the existing arrangements, then the necessary regulations will be submitted to the Court and members Mr Corkill: Certainly in order to do that primary will have an opportunity to express their views upon them. legislation is required, Mr President, and what I will give a commitment to do is to raise the issue with the new The President: A supplementary, sir. Council of Ministers to discuss this issue because I am aware that a draft Bill is in existence but that is something Mr Singer: Could I ask the minister would you agree that I can put on the agenda for Council to discuss and with me that the following exempt classes should not be make sure that the points are debated. asked to pay a prescription tax, that is, children under 16, pregnant women and registered blind? Mr Delaney: Thank you very much. Mrs Christian: Mr President, the hon. member has Mr Lowey: I will be brief. Most of the points I was referred to currently exempted categories. I think it is going to raise have already been raised in other important that the opportunity is given to the department supplementaries. Can the minister produce one statistic to evaluate its overall spending provisions but on the face

Prescription Charges — Value for Money Committee Opinion — Question by Mr Singer TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 1997 T75

of it I would agree that there are arguments in favour of including approved supplementaries, is £14,840,250. The exemptions for those groups. net expenditure for the period April 1996 up to and including December 1996, which is three quarters or 75 per cent of the financial year, is £10,860,470. The amount WAR PENSIONS — QUESTION BY MR SINGER of £10,860,470 equates to 73 per cent of the net vote for the year. Therefore my department has not exceeded the The President: Question 8, the hon. member for vote approved by Tynwald. Ramsey, Mr Singer. At this stage it is not anticipated that any further supplementary vote will be required for the current Mr Singer: Mr President, I beg to ask the Minister for financial year. Health and Social Security: The labour cost of all manual workers is included within the vote for the current financial year. The department will (1) How many Isle of Man residents are in receipt of therefore continue to employ all its manual staff. war pensions; and Mr Lowey: A supplementary, Mr President. Could I (2) what is the annual estimated cost of disregarding seek an assurance from the minister that works are not such war pensions in calculating entitlement to being delayed that require a high material cost quid pro supplementary benefit and other non-contributory quo the labour cost and that men are not being transferred benefits? to what I would call unessential works, although I believe the back roads have been neglected for a while, but I am The President: The Minister for Health and Social led to believe that men are being deployed on work that Security to reply. has no material input as opposed to the physical labour? Can I have an assurance that that is not the case? Mrs Christian: Mr President, the answer to the first part of the question is that war pensions are payable by the Mr Brown: Mr President, as far as I am aware, work United Kingdom Government directly to recipients and that contains high material costs is being reduced to enable therefore my department does not have the relevant records. us to contain ourselves within the budget. However, the However, we are advised by the local War Pensions department has looked at how it can endeavour to balance Committee that there are about 800 people resident on the its budget without seeking a supplementary vote for this Island who are in receipt of war pensions. hon. Court, and the priority from my point of view is that In answer to the second part, only 30 persons in receipt the department should contain its budget as approved in of war pensions are also in receipt of supplementary the 1996-97 budget. benefit. We do not have income details for the other 770 people and therefore no meaningful estimate of disregard Mr Lowey: A supplementary to follow on from what of war pension in any supplementary benefit claim can be the minister has said. Therefore the planned programme produced. for the department has been altered to suit the financial strictures. So there has been an overspend in the first part of the year. DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORT — VOTE — QUESTION BY MR LOWEY Mr Brown: Mr President, in the first part of the year it depends how you explain the overspend. Quarter by quarter The President: We move on then, hon. members, to the department has expended more effectively in the earlier question 9. The hon. member for the Council, Mr Lowey. part of the quarter on the highways side. As far as the department is concerned, whatever the Mr Lowey: I beg leave to ask the Minister for Transport: situation may be, the reality is that the department has a budget approved by Tynwald Court and we are (1) Has your department exceeded its vote for the endeavouring to contain ourselves within that budget. If current financial year; we do not do that, then I believe it is a matter for coming back to this hon. Court to seek permission for (2) do you anticipate seeking a further supplementary supplementary votes. At this stage the instruction is clear, vote for your department in the current financial that the department must contain itself within its existing year; and budget.

(3) will the vote for your department enable it to Mr North: Mr President, would the minister not agree continue to employ all its manual workers during with me that it is sensible to expend money on work with the current financial year? high material content at the time of the year when the weather is more acceptable to do that type of work? The President: The Minister for Transport to reply. Mr Brown: Yes, Mr President, I understand that the Mr Brown: Thank you, Mr President. The net vote department has been reviewing its pattern of expenditure approved by Tynwald for my department for 1996-97, for highway works and that it has endeavoured to expend

War Pensions — Question by Mr Singer Department of Transport — Vote — Question by Mr Lowey 176 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 1997

most of its money during the good weather. However, I maintenance and/or emergency works affecting the existing would state to the hon. Court that it is my view to review adopted highways may result in the labour force being the whole situation and see how our work patterns are withdrawn from the Baldrine Park scheme from time to programmed for the years. time. This could result in a disruption to the planned programme and a consequent delay in the final completion Mr Downie: I would like to ask the minister if he is of this phase. However, it is intended that the design work aware that members of his department are actually carrying will be finalised shortly on phase 2 of Baldrine Park. That out subcontract works now for Douglas Corporation? They involves the area from number 22 to the junction at are engaged, I understand, laying cables and erecting Ballameanagh Road together with the short cul de sac part streetlights in Douglas and does he not think that his of Baldrine Park. workforce could be more gainfully employed in reinstating There are as yet no cost estimates for this second phase. some of the major defects which currently exist on the Before any start date can be set for phase 2 the department streets and footpaths of Douglas? is required to place drawings, specifications and estimates on deposit and to serve provisional apportionments on all Mr Brown: Mr President, sometimes you would think the affected frontages for the usual one month period to the only problems are in Douglas. What I would say to the give frontages the opportunity to object under the hon. member is if my department is subcontracting, my provisions of the Highway Act of 1986. department is getting paid for that work, and I can tell the No financial provision for phase 2 has been made in hon. member, who is a member of the Department of Local my department's 1997-98 estimates and it is anticipated Government and the Environment, that we are that the earliest phase 2 can be advanced is during the subcontracting to his department as well. financial year 1998-99.

The President: A supplementary, sir. BALDRINE PARK., LONAN - STREET WORKS SCHEME - Mr Rodan: Mr President, I thank the minister for his QUESTION BY MR RODAN reply. Can I ask if his department operate to targets and if so what is the target for the completion of phase 1 of the The President: The hon. member for Garff, Mr Rodan, work, and secondly, does he agree that having promoted question 10. this scheme thus far the department has a commitment to hold the costs at the current levels and not to have them Mr Rodan: Mr President, I beg leave to ask the Minister escalate through an openended target? for Transport: Mr Brown: Mr President, as I advised the hon. member What is the programme for the proposed street in answer to the question, the preliminary programme works scheme at Baldrine Park, Lonan? allows for 25 weeks for phase 1 works. With regard to the actual holding of costs, I am not au The President: Reply, sir. fait with the legislation on that but certainly I will take that matter back to the department and check out the Mr Brown: Thank you, Mr President. Having received situation on that and advise the hon. member as to the no objections from the property owners whose properties outcome of our deliberation. front onto the roadway, the scheme for phase 1 of the Baldrine Park street works scheme, which is estimated to cost in excess of £180,000 and which was agreed and AIRPORT — DRUG DETECTION EXERCISE - published in the press last September as required by law, QUESTION BY MR RODAN is programmed to start on site during the week commencing Monday, 17th February 1997. The President: Question 11, the hon. member for Garff. The scheme will commence with the required off-site drainage works which connect the proposed highway Mr Rodan: Mr President, I beg leave to ask the Minister drainage to a soakaway drain in an adjacent plot of land. for Transport: These works are programmed to take around 12 weeks up to 9th May 1997. Work will then commence on the With whom did you consult before ordering the reconstruction of the road included in phase 1 from its cancellation of the police drug detection exercise at the northerly junction with the main road, southwards to a point airport in December? adjacent to 22 Baldrine Park. However, a detailed programme is not yet complete for the roadworks involved The President: The Minister for Transport to reply. in phase 1, but the preliminary programme allows 25 weeks for the work, giving a provisional completion date of 21st Mr Brown: Mr President, I thank the hon. member for November 1997. his question as once again it gives me the opportunity to It is important for me to advise the hon. member that it clarify the situation and correct statements which have been is possible that other priorities such as essential made regarding this issue.

Baldrine Park, Lonan — Street Works Scheme — Question by Mr Rodan Airport — Drug Detection Exercise — Question by Mr Rodan TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 1997 T77

First may I make it clear that I did not order or request distress, as I believe would have been the situation in this the cancellation of a police drug detection exercise matter. I am therefore more than happy with the decision I proposed to be held at the airport in December last. The made in this case. decision to cancel the exercise was taken by the Isle of Man Constabulary and not by myself or any officer within The President: A supplementary, sir. my department. The police were advised by the airport director that I Mr Rodan: Mr President, can the hon. minister confirm and my department were more than happy for the police that whilst the proposal from the police was not acceptable and press to cover the baggage being unloaded off aircraft to him, it had previously received acceptance from his own and for the sniffer dogs to carry out their checks air-side airport director, from Manx Airlines, Emerald Airways and prior to the baggage being placed on the baggage carousel. the other passenger operators? This would have allowed for any suspicious baggage to be held and when all the other passengers had claimed Mr Brown: Mr President, I can confirm that and would their baggage, only those passengers, if any, whose baggage say to the hon. member that that is why we have a political had been identified as suspicious would have been taken system with a political head. to the customs search area for further checks. Unfortunately this procedure was not acceptable to the police and they Mrs Cannell: A supplementary, Mr President, please? determined to cancel their operation. I can advise the hon. members that the original proposals The President: Certainly, madam. from the police, of which I was advised on Wednesday, 11th December, were not acceptable to me. The proposal Mrs Cannell: Can I ask the hon. minister why he did which was put forward by the police to my department not consult with the Minister for Home Affairs before was to single out a large flight or flights, to hold passengers taking such a decision and can I also ask him does he not in the new baggage hall and to have uniformed police, a accept that this whole exercise was to extend good public sniffer dog and the press, including a photographer, present. relations and that the whole exercise was to show that the The carousel was to be stopped once all the bags were on Isle of Man does not tolerate the importation of illegal it and the passengers were to be requested not to remove drugs, and does he also not accept that by withdrawing any bags. The sniffer dog was then to check all the baggage such a high-profile exercise the message that rang out from on the stationary carousel and any suspicious bags and this Island over Christmas time was 'It is open season: their owners were to be invited by the police into the you can come to the Isle of Man for Christmas, open customs search area, with such actions being undertaken season, you can walk in carrying anything.' Thank you. in front of the other passengers and the press. After carefully discussing the proposal with my Mr Brown: Mr President, if I can answer the last one department's chief executive I decided that a press presence first. I also am very concerned that the police put out a as suggested was not acceptable. Neither was it acceptable press statement which then was a negative response to detain all the passengers in the way proposed. I firmly received in terms that it gave the wrong image about the believe that the procedure for the exercise as presented by Isle of Man. However, that action was undertaken by the the police was totally unacceptable. It would have caused Isle of Man Constabulary and not my department. unnecessary distress to many, if not all the passengers, and As far as the next point goes, I quite agree that it is very especially anyone whose baggage had been identified as important that we tackle as best we can the drugs problem suspicious, which may well have been someone totally in the Isle of Man, but I certainly do not believe that that innocent. The department therefore proposed a procedure should mean that we will allow anybody, politicians or the which I have stated earlier within my answer which I police or any other body, to actually put a person in a believe would have been just as effective and could have situation where they are unnecessarily embarrassed or find resulted in positive press coverage, demonstrating to the themselves in a position where it infringes their rights. I public one of the ways in which the Island was believe in this circumstance, with the photographer and endeavouring to combat the importation of illegal drugs. press present in front of other passengers, such a situation As regards with whom I consulted before making my would have been totally unacceptable to the Isle of Man. decision, I can confirm that I consulted with my chief executive. I can also advise the hon. member that I fully briefed the Council of Ministers the next day at their regular Thursday Council meeting, at which my actions were GAIETY THEATRE - endorsed. FINANCIAL IRREGULARITIES - I can confirm that I, my department and the Council of INVESTIGATION COST - Ministers fully support the police in their endeavours to QUESTION BY MR DOWNIE combat the use and importation of illegal drugs. However, I firmly believe that in a democracy we as elected The President: Question 12, the hon. member for representatives have a clear duty to protect any individual Douglas West, Mr Downie. and to ensure that no unnecessary actions are taken by anyone which may infringe on the rights of any person, Mr Downie: Thank you, Mr President. I beg leave to especially if such actions are likely to cause unnecessary ask the Minister for Home Affairs:

Gaiety Theatre — Financial Irregularities — Investigation Cost — Question by Mr Downie 178 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 1997

What has been the cost to date of the investigation The President: The Minister for Tourism and Leisure by the police into financial irregularities at the Gaiety to reply. Theatre, Douglas? Mr Cretney: Thank you, Mr President. I would like to The President: The Minister for Home Affairs to reply. assure the hon. Court that at the first meeting of the new Department of Tourism and Leisure this matter was raised Mr Bell: Thank you, Mr President. I regret that I am and discussed. On the basis of the information that I have unable to state what this investigation has cost. The police to hand I can assure this Court that in the event of any do not normally keep records of the amount of time spent member of staff being suspected of any criminality it would by officers on individual investigations and have not done have been standard practice for such a person to be so in this case and there is no way therefore that the cost immediately suspended from duty. I am pleased to advise of this investigation can be calculated. What I can say is this hon. Court that following discovery of the alleged that this investigation has taken up a considerable amount fraud, no person was so suspended. of time since it began in September 1993 and a considerable I can also assure this Court that no person working number of hours have clearly been spent on it. I understand voluntarily in the theatre at the material time or that most of the investigation has been carried out within subsequently has been implicated in any criminal act. duty time and although some overtime will have been Indeed I would wish to pay credit publicly today to those worked on it, it is not believed to have been excessive. people I have just mentioned, both staff and volunteers, The police have not incurred any expenditure outside the who, like so many others on our Island, are dedicated to Isle of Man in relation to this investigation as although the future wellbeing of Frank Matcham's gem, the Gaiety, inquiries had to be made of individuals and groups in the and who have worked on so conscientiously whilst this United Kingdom, all the required information was sought matter has and continues to be in the public spotlight. and obtained by post. With regard to the hon. member's recent press statement, I realise that this question touches on a matter of the current situation with regard to box office staffing is a completely separate issue and it is in no way connected to considerable public interest and concern and I regret, as I the alleged fraud. stated at the outset, not being able to provide the The hon. member is aware that my predecessor, the hon. information that the hon. member for Douglas West is member for Castletown, appointed a team to conduct an seeking. It is simply a case of the information required internal inquiry into the circumstances surrounding the just not being available. alleged fraud at the Gaiety Theatre. The appointment of the team was confirmed in writing on 14th November 1996 Mr Downie: A supplementary, Mr President. I would and the remit of the inquiry was as follows: 'to investigate just like to ask the minister if he can tell us perhaps then, if the alleged fraud at the Gaiety Theatre and, in particular, he cannot tell us how much money is involved, how many consider whether the department should consider persons have been interviewed in connection with this instituting disciplinary proceedings against any current inquiry and is the minister entirely satisfied that the matter member of staff and, having regard to the changes in has been fully and thoroughly investigated by the police? practices and procedures introduced since 1993, whether any further actions are required by the department to Mr Bell: Once again, Mr President, I do not have that minimise the risk of any future problems.' The hon. information to hand. I have no idea, without some member for Castletown requested that the team report back forewarning, as to the number of people interviewed during with recommendations in writing no later than 31st the investigation, although I do understand it was a December 1996. considerable number of individuals. At this stage it is not On 20th December 1996 the investigation team for me to say whether I believe the police have done an requested an extension in time in respect of completions effective job in their investigations. It has been referred to of its findings. As current minister for the Department of the Attorney-General. He has made his decision on this Tourism and Leisure I agreed to an extension until 31st case and at this stage I have to leave it at that point. January 1997. Without wishing to pre-empt the report which I will be receiving I can advise the Court that I have been assured by my chief executive that all appropriate GAIETY THEATRE - financial systems are now in place at the theatre. FINANCIAL IRREGULARITIES - Finally there is one further point which I would like to INTERNAL INVESTIGATION - take this opportunity of clarifying. Whilst it had been QUESTION BY MR DOWNIE reported that the sum involved in the alleged fraud was almost £100,000, it is my understanding that the amount The President: Question 13, the hon. member for involved is substantially less, but I would wish to make no Douglas West, Mr Downie. further comment on this aspect in view of the fact that the learned Attorney-General has not closed his file on this Mr Downie: Thank you, Mr President. I beg leave to matter and it could prejudice any possible proceedings if I ask the Minister for Tourism and Leisure: were to be any more specific at this time.

Is an internal investigation still taking place with Mr Downie: I thank the hon. minister for his reply, Mr regard to financial irregularities at the Gaiety Theatre? President. I would just like to ask him to confirm that

Gaiety Theatre — Financial Irregularities — Internal Investigation — Question by Mr Downie TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 1997 T79 money is still missing from the Gaiety and when the report It has to be said that the department, like other is available after 31st January will he circulate it to government departments, has to act in a financially members of this hon. Court? responsible manner. It cannot commit itself to the expenditure of money which it does not have available to Mr Cretney: The situation is that over a period of 18 it in its budget. Within the same scenario, Treasury has to months, to the best of my knowledge, an amount of money be responsible and not agree to the allocation of funding was removed from the Gaiety Theatre, and so that still to departments which is not available for budgetary exists, it has not been replaced; that is obvious. With regard expenditure. I make this point because in practical terms to the report which I will be receiving on the 31st January the recommendations of the Beck report have not been 1997, when I have that report I will make decisions in fully acted on in that support to the sheep sector in the Isle respect of whatever is proposed in it. of Man, taken independently of overall support to the agricultural sector, is not similar to that prevailing in the United Kingdom. My department did not currently have BECK REPORT — SHEEP SECTOR SUPPORT available to it the resources to do this. — QUESTION BY MR RODAN In this respect I must point out that because of the movements in currency by way of devaluations and The President: Question 14, the hon. member for Garff, changes in the way support is channelled in the UK Mr Rodan. industry, the additional funding now required by my department will be in the order of £624,000 over and above Mr Rodan: Mr President, I beg to ask the Minister for the money available to the department for support to sheep Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry: at the time when the report was received by Tynwald and its recommendations adopted. Have the recommendations of the Beck report in What the department has done is allocate the extra respect of sheep sector support been implemented? money which Treasury has been able to allocate to it. The measures before this hon. Court at the current sitting for The President: The Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries approval will involve the expenditure of an additional and Forestry to reply. £324,000 in the current financial year. This represents significant extra funding going into the sheep sector but Mrs Hannan: Thank you, Eaghtyrane. It has become does not represent the full removal of the anomalies customary to refer to what is known as the Beck report as identified by Dr Beck. On a rough estimate this would if it were a separate and distinct item. What should be require an injection of a further £300,000 through my remembered is that the report in question formed the department's budget. appendix to a report submitted by my department at the The answer to the hon. member's question is that the behest of Tynwald on fatstock grading in the Isle of Man. anomalies addressed by Dr Beck have not been fully The report in question covers the issues of fatstock grading addressed and I have made an effort to explain to hon. and also comparative levels of support between the Isle of members why this has not been done and also the price Man and the United Kingdom. tag attached to so doing. In preparing the report for consideration by Tynwald A supplementary, sir? the department commissioned Dr H S Beck from the The President: economics and statistics division of the Department of Mr Rodan: Mr President, could I ask, firstly, could the Agriculture for Northern Ireland to undertake a review of hon. minister tell us what was the cost of obtaining the comparative levels of financial support to the livestock Beck report, and secondly, can I ask is it normal practice sectors in the Isle of Man and the United Kingdom. to commission a report from an independent person, present Dr Beck's report essentially identified that levels of beef it to Tynwald, have its recommendations accepted and then support were similar in the Isle of Man and the United for the department to fail to obtain the necessary financial Kingdom, support in low-level sheep was essentially measures to implement the recommendations? similar, but that levels of support to hill sheep were significantly adrift. However, the recommendation, which Mrs Hannan: Eaghtyrane, I have not got the cost of was actually approved and accepted by this hon. Court, the report but I said in my remarks that the Department of was that the department should proceed to consultations Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry was prevailed upon by with Treasury and the agricultural industry in the light of this hon. Court to look at fatstock grading and in looking Dr Beck's report and its own conclusions with a view to at fatstock grading it brought in a consultant from outside addressing any anomalies which have become apparent. to advise the department, in this case from Northern Ireland, I think it is fair to say that the department has done but in the recommendations and conclusions that were precisely that and has engaged in prolonged discussions received by this hon. Court the main one was that the with representatives of the sheep sector, particularly those department recommends that it should proceed to farming hill sheep, over the intervening period, this in an consultations with Treasury and the agricultural industry attempt to secure an agreement whereby the anomalies in the light of Dr Beck's report and its own conclusions present might be best addressed within the financial with a view to addressing any anomalies which have resources available to the department. become apparent, not that the so-called Beck report should

Beck Report — Sheep Sector Support — Question by Mr Rodan T80 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 1997 be implemented in full, but that talks should proceed and, The President: Proceed. as I said in my reply, £324,000 is coming up for approval at this hon. sitting for the sheep sector. Mr Downie: I would like to ask the minister if the incident which took place at Sulby Bridge some weeks ago where 30 sheep were killed or had to be destroyed, LIVE FOOD ANIMALS — EXPORT FROM involved animals that were to be shipped off the Island RAMSEY — HEALTH CERTIFICATES - and I also want to ask the minister when is it her intention QUESTION BY MR RODAN to introduce regulations into the Isle of Man in line with those currently in place in the United Kingdom to control The President: Question 15, the hon. member for Garff the transportation of live animals both on land and at sea? Mr Rodan. Mrs Hannan: In my response I mentioned the select Mr Rodan: Mr President. I beg to ask the Minister for committee which the member for Garff chaired. In Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry: reference to that members will be aware that my department has an obligation to report back to this hon. Court in March (1) Does your department issue health certificates in with respect to the report of the select committee and this respect of the export from Ramsey of live food is one of the issues which will be addressed. My department animals to destinations in Great Britain or Ireland; currently has in draft legislation which will regulate and, if so transport from the Island. This will be extended to include transport within Man, now that the necessary powers have (2) how many such certificates have been issued in the been provided over the Animal Health Act. Thank you, last six months? Eaghtyrane.

The President: The Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry. BALLASKELLA, SULBY — REAFFORESTATION PROGRAMME - Mrs Hannan: Eaghtyrane, referring to part (1) of the QUESTION BY MR CANNAN question, as the hon. member will be aware from his chairmanship of the Select Committee of Tynwald on the The President: Question 16, the hon. member for Petitions for Redress of Grievance of J Curtis, K Hitchcock Michael. and J Mann, all shipments of live food animals from the Island are subject to inspection by the department's Mr Cannan: Mr President, ask the Minister for veterinary officers in order to provide the health Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry: certification required by the relevant authorities in the United Kingdom. (1) Have the young trees for planting at Ballaskella, It is not clear from the hon. member's question and his Sulby been ordered or purchased and, if so, at what reference to 'live food animals' whether he is interested in cost; and stock exported for slaughter only or in all stock, including those exported for breeding or show. I would assume from (2) to date what is the total cost expended on the the tenor of the report referred to that it is the export of Ballaskella reafforestation programme? animals for slaughter. Although consideration of the route taken by a shipment The President: The Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries is not a requirement for certification, it is believed that and Forestry to reply. two shipments destined for Northern Ireland have been routed via Ramsey. It is further understood that neither Mrs Hannan: Eaghtyrane, in response to part (1) of shipment was composed of animals for slaughter. the hon. member for Michael's question I would confirm In short the answer to part (1) of the hon. member's that the young trees for planting at Ballaskella have been question is yes, and to part (2), two. ordered but not yet paid for. The cost of purchase is some £17,000. Mr Rodan: Mr President, could I ask the hon. minister As regards part (2) of the question, the total cost what are the requirements that the exporter has to fulfil before a certificate is issued, having regard to the state expended on the Ballaskella reafforestation programme and condition of the vehicle and the conditions on board relates mainly to staff time and is estimated at between the vessel on which the animals are travelling? £8,000 and £9,000. In addition, some £10,500 has been expended on tree guards for the 25,000 hardwood trees Mrs Hannan: With regard to the vehicle, my which form part of the Ballaskella planting scheme, 23 department has no powers or expertise as regards the fitness per cent of the scheme being broad leaves. Thank you, for purpose of vehicles used for exporting animals. Eaghtyrane.

Mr Downie: Mr President, I have a supplementary, sir, Mr Downie: A supplementary, Mr President. I would thank you. just like to ask the minister if the proposed planting scheme

Live Food Animals — Export from Ramsey — Health Certificates — Question by Mr Rodan Ballaskella, Sulby — Reafforestation Programme — Question by Mr Cannan TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 1997 T81 will be carried out by her department's own staff or is it to get part-time work with his department and get pension be put out for planting by subcontractors? entitlement and yet 400 low-paid manual workers do not qualify for that benefit and as there is a drift towards people Mrs Hannan: It is usual in cases like this, Eaghtyrane, being told to prepare for their old age, is this a wise that we do use subcontractors to do the planting. precaution? Why is it that the low paid in his department, when other part-time manual workers in other departments Mr Cannan: In view of the motion on the agenda, Mr are entitled to pensions and can take pensions, cannot in President, and if this motion carried, would there be any the Department of Education? Would he and his department loss if the order for the trees was cancelled or postponed? reconsider, if it is a policy, the policy?

Mrs Hannan: Yes, there would be a loss. There is a Dr Mann: Well, to start with, it is not a definite policy. penalty clause in the contract which I understand provides Secondly, the superannuation of manual workers is a for a penalty of 30 per cent of the total cost if the nursery government-wide policy in most departments but I accept insists on it. that in some departments it appears they have special arrangements. I certainly will look into the circumstances of the question. DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION - PART-TIME WORKERS - Mr Lowey: I thank the minister for his reply, sir. QUESTION BY MR LOWEY

The President: Question 17, the hon. member of the MANX ELECTRICITY AUTHORITY — Council Mr Lowey. SCHLUMBERGER CARD METERS - QUESTION BY MR KARRAN Mr Lowey: Mr President, I beg leave to ask the Minister for Education: The President: Question 18, the hon. member for Onchan, Mr Karran. (1) How many part-time workers are employed by your department; and Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I beg to ask the Minister for Trade and Industry: (2) under what circumstances can they qualify for a pension? (1) How many Schlumberger card meters were purchased by the Manx Electricity Authority; The President: The Minister for Education for reply. (2) how many have developed faults; and Dr Mann: Thank you, Mr President. I stress that we are referring to part-time workers in the question. The (3) did the purchase of such card meters go out to department employs a total of 917 part-time workers: 55 tender? are employed as civil servants; 64 are employed as teachers; and 225 are employed as lecturers. In addition to The President: The Minister for Trade and Industry to that there are temporary or relief staff for short periods reply. relieving other staff, in which 264 people were employed in the last financial year. Mr North: Thank you, Mr President. During the past In reply to the second part, Civil Service positions are five years I am advised that the MEA has purchased some superannuable and pension benefits would accrue from 3,250 Schlumberger card meters. In the same period faults reckonable service. The employees have the option not to have been experienced with 420 cards, which represents a have their service count towards the pension by opting rate of about 2i/2 per cent per year. out. The teachers' superannuation scheme also extends its The decision to use the Schlumberger card meter was provisions to part-time employees but those employees taken as a result, I understand, of a critical appraisal of who wish their service to count towards pension are various competitive products at the time rather than by requested to complete an election to this effect. tender. The remaining 573 part-time workers employed regularly by the department comprise 400 manual workers; The President: A supplementary, sir. 49 departmental workers analogued to the Civil Service in the NJC, and membership provisions for the manual Mr Karran: A supplementary. Would the minister not workers and officers of the board schemes do not extend agree with me that the true figure is more like 34 per cent to part-time employees currently and 124 are non- of all card meters have developed faults? Does he accept superannuable employees. that this is a totally unacceptable position, and does he also agree that it is totally wrong that the whole tendering Mr Lowey: Could I ask the minister would he review procedure has been hijacked and just shows the arrogance the position whereby the teachers and civil servants can as far as the MEA is concerned?

Department of Education — Part-Time Workers — Question by Mr Lowey Manx Electricity Authority — Schlumberger Card Meters — Question by Mr Karran T82 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 1997

Mr North: Mr President, I do not accept that the The President: The Minister for Trade and Industry to procedure has been hijacked and I think the member's reply. arithmetic is a little bit suspect if the figures are correct there; the overall is something in the region of 13 per cent. Mr North: Mr President, the salaries of officers of the MEA are not determined according to Civil Service Mr Downie: Mr President, I would just like to ask the guidelines. Sub-paragraph (1) to sub-paragraph (3) of the minister if any of the past members of the MEA board had first schedule to the Electricity Act 1996 states, and I quote, any connection with Schlumberger and ask him - he has `The Authority may appoint such officers as it thinks fit, not answered the question, did the purchase of the card at such remuneration and upon such conditions as the meters go out to tender - if people were involved in Authority may determine.' I would add that the provisions Schlumberger, did they declare a pecuniary interest in the of the 1996 Act on this matter are fundamentally the same meters? as those that exist under the legislation which it is replacing.

Mr North: Yes, Mr President, the chairman at the time Mr Downie: A supplementary, Mr President. of the MEA was also chairman of Schlumberger plc - The President: The hon. member for Onchan has a Mr Downie: Surprise, surprise! supplementary first. Mr North: but has no line authority over any of the Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, does the minister not agree Schlumberger trading activities which is a very broad with me that putting the chief executive onto the board of spectrum within the United Kingdom. the MEA means that there is going to be even less rick and control over the controls for the wage agreements for such The President: Afurther supplementary, the hon. officers, and would he also agree that that will cause member for Onchan. resentment because within the MEA there is one law for one section of the staff and another law for the other and Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, does the minister not agree will this improve staff relations when so many are up on with me that he should either have a full investigation over arms in the MEA at the present time with the present this affair and report back to this hon. Court or the issue management? should be reported to the Public Accounts Committee, and would he also agree with me if he would at least do me the Mr North: Mr President, I am unaware of some of the decency to just check up on his failure rate as far as this is comments, as yet, that the hon. member for Onchan is concerned because I think you will find that my facts are making but I would have thought that the board will act in more accurate than his? a proper manner in determining the salaries that are and should be paid, as they do in the Post Office, the Financial Mr North: Mr President, I hope that is not the case but Supervision Commission, the Insurance Authority and the I certainly take the point and will be having a look at this Communications Commission, but of course not in the particular issue that has been raised by the hon. member. Water Authority.

Mr Delaney: My supplementary follows the hon. The President: The hon. member for Douglas West, member for West Douglas. Is the fact that the person Mr Downie. concerned in the company that produced these cards declared his interest and is it recorded? Mr Downie: Thank you, Mr President. I would just like to ask the hon. minister if negotiations have now been Mr North: As I understand it, yes, Mr President, it was completed with regard to the new pay scale and salary for declared and recorded. the chief executive and will members of Tynwald be informed as to what that salary is likely to be?

MANX ELECTRICITY AUTHORITY - Mr North: Mr President, I am unaware of what has OFFICERS' SALARIES - been completed in terms of pay for the chief executive QUESTION BY MR KARRAN and I see no reason to divulge that particular salary negotiation at this stage. The President: Question 19, the hon. member for Onchan, Mr Karran. Mr Delaney: A supplementary, Mr President. The minister, in replying, placed a similarity between this Mr Karran: Mr President, I beg to ask the Minister particular section outside government and the Post Office for Trade and Industry: authority and others. Is the minister not aware that at least there is some political representation on there so that we Are the salaries of officers of the Manx Electricity in this Court have someone to question directly on what is Authority based upon the Civil Service guidelines? going on in the board meetings when discussing salaries?

Manx Electricity Authority —Officers' Salaries — Question by Mr Karran TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 1997 T83

Mr North: Mr President, that is a matter for Tynwald Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, a supplementary. Would the to decide. That is what Tynwald has decided and that is minister not agree with me that the reason why you do not the way it is at the moment. have somebody on the MEA from this hon. Court is so that nobody then takes political responsibility as far as the The President: A supplementary, sir? policies of the MEA are concerned, so that they can dodge prickly issues such as the issue that now the people of the Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, what assurances can you give Isle of Man are suffering from through the fact that you this hon. Court, minister, that, allowing for the fact that would not address the issue of natural gas being brought you have got rid of the only two that put any controls on to the Island? the chairman and the chief executive in the MEA with the Would he also not agree with me that this hon. Court recent changes within the board, there will be some control believes that there should be a member of Tynwald on the over wages of those at the top of the scales within the MEA, MEA to make it more accountable and will he introduce now that you have got rid of all the ones who actually put legislation to do so and if not will he make a clear any sort of controls in the MEA, who have now been undertaking that he will not do so or the Council of dismissed through your illogical new appointment of a new Ministers will not do so, so that then a private member's board? Bill can be introduced in another place in order to resolve the issue as far as the lack of accountability for the Mr North: Mr President, the appointment of the new consumers of the Isle of Man is concerned? board, as recommended to the Council of Ministers, was not illogical. I do not know who the hon. member for Mr North: Mr President, the MEA in the last 10 years Onchan is referring to, but the MEA board contained some has been a highly successful authority, and I do not accept elderly gentlemen and it was felt that a change was needed that there is no political control because the Minister of to bring in some younger people, and the board, as far as I the Department of Trade and Industry has political control am concerned, will have regular and ongoing of the Manx Electricity Authority, and I trust that that has communications with my department. I do not know happened in the past, in fact I know it has happened in the whether that has been the case in the past, but as far as I past, and it certainly will happen in the future, and regarding am concerned I have the assurance, in fact welcome the relationship with the board of the MEA, in my opinion assurance from the chairman designate, that myself or I will make sure that the communication there is full and members of my department are most welcome to attend proper, and I would congratulate the work that the MEA any board meetings of the MEA. have done for the Isle of Man in the past 10 years.

Mr Delaney: Why did you sack them all? (Laughter) MANX ELECTRICITY AUTHORITY — TYNWALD MEMBER - Mr Lowey: Could I ask a supplementary for QUESTION BY MR KARRAN clarification? Would the minister not agree that the present legislation does not exclude a member of this Court being The President: Question 20, the hon. member for appointed to the department, if the Council of Ministers Onchan, Mr Karran. so wished?

Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I beg to ask the Minister for Mr North: Mr President, I agree entirely with what the Trade and Industry: hon. member for Council says.

Will your department give further consideration to Mr Karran: A further supplementary, Eaghtyrane. including a member of Tynwald on the Manx Electricity Would the minister then raise the issue at the Council of Authority? Ministers and clarify whether they are prepared to resolve this anomaly at the present time of no accountability as far The President: The Minister for Trade and Industry to as the MEA is concerned and make sure that the members reply. of this hon. Court are aware where they stand as far as this issue is concerned so that legislative changes can be Mr North: Mr President, paragraph 1 in the first promoted by private members if they are not prepared to schedule of the Electricity Act 1996 states that the resolve the issue? Electricity Authority shall consist of a chairman and four other members, all of whom are to be appointed by the Mr North: Mr President, the Council of Ministers has Council of Ministers, subject to the approval of Tynwald. suggested the names for the Manx Electricity Authority, As part of the consultation process the views of my and as far as I am concerned the way that it is in legislation department on possible nominees for membership have now, I am quite satisfied with that, I think it has been • been invited in the past and presumably will again in the successful and I do not think there is any need. There is future, but that is the limit of our involvement and it is not political involvement from the Minister of the Department within my power to give the undertaking sought by the of Trade and Industry, and that has been set up by this hon. hon. member. Court.

Manx Electricity Authority — Tynwald Member — Question by Mr Karran T84 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 1997

ONCHAN CONSERVATION AREA - up local plans, that these should give more definitive LOCAL PLAN REVISION - guidelines to both developers, local authorities and indeed CONSERVATION INITIATIVES - the Planning Committee in order to avoid ambiguities QUESTION BY MR WAFT arising, causing great financial burdens on the ratepayers?

The President: Question 21, the hon. member for Mr Quine: I would agree with the hon. member that Council, Mr Waft. there would be benefit in additional guidance in this respect. This has been recognised by the department and Mr Waft: Mr President, I beg to ask the Minister for the conservation officer is at this time preparing policy Local Government and the Environment: guidance notes which specifically relate to what is headed in this draft as planning and the historic environment and (1) Will your department be considering extending the it is intended that those guidelines will help in this respect. Onchan conservation area and will this be included It is expected that the guidance notes will be available and in the revision of the Onchan local plan; will be considered by the department in February or March and of course following their approval they should be (2) what is the present scheduling of this revision; and carried forward to local plans.

(3) will you be seeking additional funding for Mr Waft: I thank the minister for his reply. conservation initiatives?

The President: The Minister for Local Government and POST OFFICE - the Environment to reply. MANAGEMENT RESTRUCTURING - QUESTION BY MR KNIVETON Mr Quine: Thank you, Mr President. The answer to the first part of the hon. member's question is the The President: Question 22, the hon. member for department will be examining the merits of an extension Onchan, Mr Kniveton. to the existing Onchan conservation area as part of the revision of the Onchan local plan. Mr Kniveton: I beg leave, sir, to ask the Chairman of With regard to the scheduling, the hon. member will the Isle of Man Post Office: know from the 1996 Review of Policies and Programmes report that the Department of Local Government and the (1) Has your authority put into effect an exercise Environment is heavily committed in revising local plans. covering management restructuring during the past Of the six local plans listed in the annual report, a public 12 months; and inquiry has been concluded into one and public inquiries into the other five will be held this year. The Douglas town (2) if so - plan, of course, is being progressed, as I recently reported to this hon. Court. Following on from this programme of (a) on what date; and work other town and village plans will be revised, including the Onchan plan. There have been some discussions on (b) what were the long-term benefits and costs to the Onchan plan but work is unlikely to begin for some your authority and staff? time and much as I would like to expedite this work I am afraid resources at this time do not permit me to do so. The President: The Chairman of the Isle of Man Post If I may now turn to part (3) of the hon. member's Office to reply. question, I can confirm that the department is striving to promote conservation, the profile of which has been raised Mr Cretney: Thank you, Mr President. I am delighted since the conservation officer was appointed. In addition to the consolidation of policy as applied to existing on this last occasion I will have to be publicly accountable to Tynwald on behalf of the Isle of Man Post Office. I conservation areas, the department is also examining the merits of a number of potential new conservation areas would like to refer the hon. member for Onchan to the within the context of the various local plans, which, as I answer I gave to a question in this Court on Tuesday, 18th said, are currently being formulated and being progressed. June 1996. The department recognises the need to provide for adequate The long-term effects of management restructuring are levels of funding in order to enable conservation initiatives to provide clearly defined management roles and give to be taken. The department has discussed with the Treasury managers responsibility and authority at the appropriate the question of additional funding to implement these level, to introduce a professional approach to people initiatives within the context of the conservation policies management, to improve and strengthen customer focus, now in place and we will continue to seek further funding to streamline processes and ensure greater efficiency and to advance conservation initiatives. effectiveness and improve communications throughout the organisation, to strengthen management information Mr Waft: Mr President, a supplementary. Will the systems and to provide resources to achieve the business minister agree with me that it is essential, when drawing strategy of growth through diversification.

Onchan Conservation Area — Local Plan Revision — Conservation Initiatives — Question by Mr Waft Post Office — Management Restructuring — Question by Mr Kniveton TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 1997 T85

The ongoing saving to the Isle of Man Post Office GOVERNMENT POLICY — ANNUAL REVIEW Authority is £105,000 per annum in current terms. The OF POLICIES AND PROGRAMMES 1996 - one-off cost of implementing the management restructuring QUESTION BY MR CANNAN was £77,024 in respect of professional fees and provision in the accounts for the year ended 31st March 1996 of The President: Question 23, the hon. member for £233,885 in respect of additional contributions to the Michael, Mr Cannan. pension scheme to take account of early retirement packages. Mr Cannan: Mr President, I ask the Chief Minister: The Post Office is now advised by the superannuation Is the policy of your goverhment identical to that of scheme actuary that the provision referred to may be (1) the Annual Review of Policies and Programmes reduced on a straight-line basis over the average length of 1996 as laid before Tynwald on 15th October 1996; the service to the membership, currently approximately and, if not 16 years, to comply with current cost accounting practice. (2) do you intend to issue a new policy document? Mr Kniveton: A supplementary question, sir, please. I would thank the chairman for his reply and referring to The President: The Chief Minister to reply. the part of the question regarding the exercise for the management, may I ask the chairman is he aware that there Mr Gelling: Mr President, in answer to a question in is a major concern and much discontent that this exercise this Court in October last year I signified my personal will now take place in the rank-and-file clerical grades in commitment to the Annual Review of Policies and his authority, resulting in a deterioration in conditions and Programmes 1996 and in my statement of policy circulated I employment, and what are his comments in this respect, to members in December under section (2B) of the Council please? of Ministers Act I repeated substantially the central policy set out in that review. There should therefore be no Mr Cretney: Any concerns in respect of the rank-and- misunderstanding that I am leading an administration file clerical grades are completely unfounded. I think I have which is founded on the principles which underpin the made this point in the past. The situation was that a view review and that the review provides the basis for current was taken that at senior management level the Post Office policy. Authority was top heavy. It is easy for people to spend Policy is of course continually evolving and the money. It is more effective sometimes for us to realise forthcoming budget will provide the next opportunity for where we are not using the best use of taxpayer's resources a fresh statement of government policy. In the meantime and prior to the budget I am not proposing to issue any and though decisions may be difficult, we have to take interim or further general policy document. them in order to save the taxpayer funds. That was a decision I was content to make following the best advice. I am concerned if people at clerical grades are worried about their positions. They have no need to be and I am COMPULSORY PURCHASE LEGISLATION - sure that I leave the organisation in the capable hands of QUESTION BY MR KARRAN the hon. member for West Douglas, Mr Downie, subject The President: Question 24, the hon. member for to Tynwald approval, and I would like to pay credit to the Onchan, Mr Karran. staff for their support during my five years of service. Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I beg to ask the Chief The President: A supplementary, sir? Minister:

Mr Kniveton: Just one further supplementary question. (1) Are you satisfied that the present compulsory I appreciate that Mr Cretney is leaving the Post Office purchase legislation is adequate for the needs of Authority but can he give those staff I am referring to, the government; and, if not rank-and-file members, some sort of undertaking that there will be no compulsory redundancies or reductions in salary (2) does the Council of Ministers intend to introduce within the rank-and-file, as I call them, clerical members legislation to amend the Acquisition of Land Act in that authority? 1984?

Mr Cretney: I do not believe I am in a position to make The President: The Chief Minister to reply. decisions for somebody who is to come after me, subject to Tynwald approval. Certainly I made it clear during the Mr Gelling: Mr President, the Acquisition of Land Act time I was in office that there would be no compulsory of 1984, on the initiative of the Council of Ministers, is redundancies. That position, I hope, will remain the case currently the subject of examination by the Treasury and and in terms of the clerical grades, that concern, in my the Attorney-General's Chambers. There will be a report view, is unfounded. to the Council of Ministers and a decision on whether

Government Policy — Annual Review of Policies and Programmes 1996 — Question by Mr Cannan Compulsory Purchase Legislation — Question by Mr Karran T86 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 1997

amendment to the legislation is desirable will therefore be He resigned as a director of Duncan Lawrie Fund Managers taken in the light of that report. Limited in January of last year. He is not involved in any business or company supervised or regulated by the Mr Karran: Firstly, I would like to thank the Chief Financial Supervision Commission. Minister for his reply but, allowing for the fact that at the Mr Gilbey's past experience in merchant and investment present time the present legislation has rendered us banking makes him an ideal candidate to take on this impotent in order to be able to use compulsory legislation demanding role of Financial Supervision Commission on such issues as recently the Rushen Abbey and before Chairman. The Island's credibility as an international that any chance of any redevelopment of a new hospital financial centre of repute will therefore be enhanced even on the Noble's site, can he give some sort of time period further by this appointment. I do not see any conflict of when this exercise will be done in order to get this piece interest and I have no hesitation in recommending his of legislation into the relevant chambers and passed in order appointment to the Court for confirmation as a later item to make sure that government can be most effective as far on this agenda today. Thank you. as these issues are concerned? The President: A supplementary, sir? Mr Gelling: Mr President, basically, yes, I can say to the hon. member we will be looking at this as soon as the Mr Cannan: Is the minister aware that the list of report from the Attorney-General's Chambers and the companies on the question paper is taken from the register Treasury comes forward to the Council of Ministers and of members' interests as at 13th January this year and that then of course whatever initiatives have to be taken from the suggestion that the hon. member resigned from Duncan that will be speedily put through. I can assure the member Lawrie Fund Managers over a year ago would suggest that it is really the report coming from Treasury and the the register is out of date? Attorney-General's Chambers which is of paramount importance. Mr Corkill: Yes, Mr President, on receiving this question I too checked on the members' interests register, did find that the information was not quite up to date, as FINANCIAL SUPERVISION COMMISSION - the member for Michael has highlighted, and I do believe CHAIRMAN — QUESTION BY MR CANNAN that Mr Gilbey has now put that matter correct.

The President: Question 25, the hon. member for Mr Cretney: Mr President, could I ask the minister, Michael, Mr Cannan. does he agree with me that it is a very important part of a member of Tynwald's duty, and in particular perhaps a Mr Cannan: Mr President, I ask the Minister for the member with responsibility for financial matters, that the Treasury: register of interests in respect of that particular member should always be kept up to date, and is he aware that that (1) Is it appropriate and in the best interests of the was not always the case in respect of certain ex-ministers? Island's credibility as an international financial centre that a person who is currently - Mrs Hannan: Like the member for Michael? Chairman of Manx Telecom, Mannin Industries Mr Corkill: Mr President, it is not for me to comment Limited, Mannin Dealings Limited, Vannin on previous ministerial appointments. I would underline International Securities Limited and VIS Dealings what the hon. member has mentioned, that it is important Limited; and Director of Isle of Man Steam Packet for all members to have the register of interests up to date. Co, Duncan Lawrie Fund Managers Limited, So anybody who has recent changes, I would suggest that Mannin Media Limited and Mannin Property they check the members' interests book themselves and Limited; make sure they are up to date.

should be appointed as Chairman of the Financial Supervision Commission; and DOUGLAS BAY — SEWAGE DISCHARGE - QUESTION BY MR WAFT (2) is there a conflict of interest? The President: Question 26, the hon. member of the The President: The Minister for the Treasury to reply. Council, Mr Waft.

Mr Corkill: Thank you, Mr President. I have appointed, Mr Waft: Mr President, I beg to ask the Minister for subject to the approval of this hon. Court at this sitting, Transport: Mr Walter Gilbey MHK as Chairman of the Financial Supervision Commission. In view of the protracted timescale for IRIS, what Mr Gilbey has no directorships or shareholdings in any plans has your department for minimising the continued financial organisation operating in or from the Isle of Man. deleterious effects of sewage discharge into Douglas Bay?

Financial Supervision Commission — Chairman — Question by Mr Cannan Douglas Bay — Sewage Discharge — Question by Mr Waft TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 1997 T87

The President: The Minister for Transport to reply. fulfilling the proposal of putting a treatment plant at Meary Veg as insanity and that he should be looking at a new site Mr Brown: Thank you, Mr President. Firstly, let me where gravity feed as far as a plant is concerned comes confirm that the Douglas and Onchan stage as approved more into its own because of the horrendous costs that by Tynwald comprises three elements, namely the works would be involved in pumping it all the way over to Meary within Douglas, the transmission of sewage from Douglas Veg? And can he tell this hon. Court is his department still and the treatment of sewage at Meary Veg and, as hon. fully committed to going ahead with such a crazy proposal members are aware, the works within Douglas are ongoing. as developing the Meary Veg proposal at the present time? Secondly, let me say that the position in regard to the construction of the transmission main from Douglas to Mr Brown: Mr President, the hon. member continues Meary Veg, Santon and the construction of the treatment to have a use of colourful terminologies when referring to plant at Meary Veg is no different now than it was in the decisions made by departments. Can I say that the clear 1995 book. Both the 1995 and 1996 annual policy policy of the department, government and Tynwald Court document and the 1996-97 budget book show the design is to progress the IRIS master plan, which involves Meary work taking place within the five-year programme with Veg, and that is the decision of this hon. Court. the construction of the treatment plant at Santon and the As far as we are concerned - and I am sure the hon. transmission main from Douglas to Santon being shown member who is Chairman of the Water Authority is also as further expenditure items. The projected programme for aware of the difficulties of getting anything round the Isle completion of the Douglas and Onchan phase of the IRIS of Man, whether it be sewage or water in terms of the master plan has not therefore changed. nature of the Isle of Man having hills and all sorts and However, if hon. members wish to see an early reduction therefore requires pumping - if we are to have the situation, in the pollution of the Island's bays and a reduction in the which I fully support, which is to cease pumping raw risk of sewage to all of the Island's watercourses, this can sewage into the Irish Sea for the Isle of Man, then it is only be achieved by the early progression of the inevitable that we are going to be in a situation where we construction of the sewage treatment plant at Meary Veg. can not gravity-feed all our sewerage system. So that is To achieve this the expenditure on the IRIS master plan quite clear. would have to be advanced, with the potential of affecting Presently I can advise the hon. member that certainly I the government's projected five-year capital programme. am fully committed to the IRIS master plan, albeit that the If the necessary finances can be made available, my department is of course continuing reviewing and seeing department is more than happy to advance the IRIS master what the situation is as we get to individual phases and it plan and therefore bring about an early completion of this is absolutely vital as far as I am concerned, that we have major sewage system renewal programme. now started to deal with the major area which is of course the Douglas and Onchan area, that we do not get into a A supplementary, sir? The President: position where the out-of-town areas and the rural districts of the Isle of Man are left behind and I would hope to see Mr Waft: A supplementary, Mr President. Would the minister agree with me that IRIS will not prove to be value as early a completion to this system as we can afford. for money until the Meary Veg is fully operational? And would he also agree that the cost of the Douglas Mr Rodan: Mr President, can the hon. minister confirm transmission main has increased from £4.6 million in 1995- that Douglas and Onchan's untreated sewage will soon all 96 to now over £6 million in 1996-97 and therefore it is be concentrated at Conister outfall to pollute Douglas Bay essential that this scheme be progressed as soon as for many years to come until Meary Veg is built, and will possible? he therefore, as our new minister, consider a policy review to extend the Conister outfall with screening so we can get Mr Brown: Mr President, could I just say that as far as clean bathing waters much sooner? achieving value for money is concerned, I think it is fair to say that we will not achieve our full value for money until Mr Brown: Mr President, I think there is a little bit of the Meary Veg plant is up and running and the whole system a misconception that if we do other things it is going to be operates and, however, I am sure the hon. member and the sooner. The one thing that controls this, hon. member, is hon. Court accepts that there are phases of the IRIS the amount of finance that is available and the amount of programme which mean this is inevitable. finance the Island can afford. Now, we could quite clearly, As far as the cost is concerned, I can confirm that in the as a government and as Tynwald Court, advance the whole budget book approved by this hon. Court last year in March IRIS scheme and get it done in a very short time if hon. it shows clearly there that the cost is now in excess of £6 members were willing to take the difficult decisions of million for this section and that is of course, as I understand putting back other capital projects. However, I do not it, the cost of inflationary items, not the cost of anything believe that that would be acceptable because hon. being changed in the scheme. So, yes, any delay naturally members would then be in this hon. Court asking questions is going to have an increase in cost in terms of inflationary as to why smaller schemes that affect their area are not cost. being progressed. As far as the sea outfall to the Conister rock is concerned, Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, would the minister not agree again there is nothing being hidden on this. The reports with me that most outside this Court see the idea of that have been before Tynwald Court have been absolutely

Douglas Bay — Sewage Discharge — Question by Mr Waft T88 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 1997 clear that until the on-Island treatment works are available Mr North: Mr President, wouldn't the hon. minister we will continue to discharge into the Irish Sea right round agree with me that if you do not do anything you cannot the Isle of Man. What is clear is that if the hon. member be accused of anything? for Garff was to pursue his policy, there would be a bigger building on Douglas promenade than the one that has now Mr Brown: Mr President, I was going to say it is easy been redeveloped which is where the pump-house is down to go through the motions (Laughter) but I think what we opposite where the Victoria Clock is and it would be bigger must say is that in my view this is one of the most important than that. There are likely to be, if we screen, odours which matters we have to deal with in terms of public health, and would cause problems. But also when the hon. member there is no doubt within the Isle of Man, whatever individual differences are, that the general public of the says, 'Can we not just extend the Conister rock outfall?', Isle of Man, by the vast majority, expect us to get this it is very simple to say that but of course it is a different matter resolved and they wish to see a cessation of matter when we start to actually look at how we will have discharge into the Irish Sea. to achieve that. My understanding - and this goes back to my time on the LGB back in 1985, I think it was, when The President: Hon. members, with questions 27 and Douglas Corporation were responsible for treating the 28 down for written answer, that concludes our sewage - was that we would have to take a sea outfall well consideration of the question paper. The Court will now outside the Douglas and Onchan headlands, and that, I have adjourn and the adjournment will be until 2.30. Thank you, to say, would cost a considerable amount of money. hon. members. I think it is also fair to say, if my recollection is correct, that the former minister, through his department, made it The Court adjourned at 1 p.m. clear to this hon. Court that the costs of doing sea outfalls for the Isle of Man would be as costly, if not more costly, than the IRIS master plan and would not enable us to cease COURTHOUSE — CAR PARK — QUESTION BY discharging our sewage into the Irish Sea, and I have to MR CROWE FOR WRITTEN ANSWER say the view of certainly the people in my area is absolutely clear. They wish to see a cessation of discharging into the Question 27 Irish Sea as soon as possible, certainly within my town, and all I would say is if hon. members have a concern The hon. member for Douglas North, Mr Crowe, to ask about it I am sure we can revise how we develop the IRIS the Minister for Local Government and the Environment: master plan. In view of the shortage of car parking in the vicinity Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, would the minister give an of the new courthouse would you consider making the open assurance to this Court that his department are looking at space adjoining Mount Havelock into a public car park more sensible sites such as the White Hoe site or even the rather than have it as a landscaped garden which is the possibility still of the Quiggin's Yard site to minimise present plan? pumping and running costs for future generations, or even looking at a land reclamation scheme in the Douglas Bay Answer area somewhere in order to sort out this problem as far as Meary Veg is concerned? No doubt the hon. member's question relates to the site of the former 1-4 Mount Havelock which is currently vacant following the development of the new courts of Mr Brown: Mr President, it sounds very simple, what justice and registries buildings. the hon. member is putting forward, and always good ideas are. All I would say is that the Department of Local Though the former 1-4 Mount Havelock was not within Government and the Environment only a couple of years the area embraced by the planning application for the courts ago suggested the incinerator be put at the White Hoe and and registries complex, it is a condition of the planning that did not meet with a favourable response. Also, the approval for this development that the area of Mount Department of Local Government and the Environment Havelock in question be soft landscaped. suggested some works down on the promenade which extended the area by the war memorial out into the sea for The Issues and Options document on the revision of car parking and it was all to be covered in and that did not the Douglas local plan, which will shortly be published meet a favourable response. for further consultation, suggests that the 1-4 Mount So whilst the hon. member, like ourselves, comes up Havelock site be zoned for government purposes, be they with some good ideas, I have to say the reality is that in parking, landscaping or other permitted use. Against this many of these cases there is usually quite a bit of backdrop, the Department of Local Government and the opposition, and all I would say is that we must not forget Environment, which is responsible for off-street parking, that a lot of work has been done in terms of advancing is already examining the feasibility of using the site for Meary Veg and getting it zoned on the development plan parking. However, it will be appreciated that the department for the use it is now proposed to be used for by my would need to seek planning approval in the light of the department. planning condition relating to this site.

Courthouse — Car Park — Question by Mr Crowe for Written Answer TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 1997 T89

POST OFFICE MANAGEMENT — REVIEW AND applying to merchant vessels - that is, excluding fishing REORGANISATION — QUESTION BY vessels, tugs, pleasure vessels and houseboats; they are all MR CROWE FOR WRITTEN ANSWER separately dealt with in the other two motions because we have three sets of regulations in all. Question 28 The three sets of regulations have been made by the Department of Transport to adjust the rates of harbour dues The hon. member for Douglas North, Mr Crowe, to ask in accordance with the effects of inflation since the rates the Chairman of the Isle of Man Post Office: were last changed. This is so as to protect the value of the revenue which the government receives from harbour users Following the review and reorganisation of the Post under section 55 of the Harbours (Isle of Man) Act 1961. Office management, how does the new management In the present financial year, we forecast receipts of a little structure, detailing numbers of staff and positions of more than £2.2 million, which is applied to the general responsibility, compare to the previous management revenue. structure? With one exception, the increase to be applied is 2.5 per cent. The exception is fuel oil. From 1st February last Answer year, 1996, an increase over and above inflation was applied to fuel oil as the first of three annual stages to The restructuring of the Post Office management team bring harbour dues of a tonne of fuel oil up to the same which was completed in 1996 resulted in a number of level as the harbour dues on a tonne of liquid gas. This significant changes including: year, from 1st February 1997 the second of those stages is applied by which eight pence per tonne is added to the 2.5 • removing a layer of management between the Chief per cent increase on fuel oil. That represents an increase Executive and workforce; from £2.01 to £2.14 - that is, almost 6.5 per cent. This adjustment, being phased over three years, is in • creation of management teams and redefinition of recognition of the similarity of harbour facilities now accountabilities and responsibilities; utilised by vessels discharging the various kinds of liquid petroleum products. The additional revenue anticipated as • combining/direction of the philatelic bureau and arising in a full year from the increases in harbour dues counters into one role, giving greater interaction between applied by the merchant vessel regulations is approximately these departments; £66,000 in a full year. In 1996-97, for February and March, the additional revenue may be in the order of about £4,000. • a new contract appointment of human resources The department circulated its proposed increases to director. harbour users in the latter part of 1996 and no objections have been received in respect of dues covered by the The total number of people employed in the merchant vessels regulations, though a letter was received management of the Post Office at July 1996 was 27, which from the Fishermen's Association concerning the proposed is now reduced to 23. increases on fishing vessels dues, which they thought were fair. The restructuring was carried out with the co-operation Mr President, I beg to move the resolution standing in of the Communication Managers Association and is my name and, as hon. members know, a memorandum has currently subject to a joint post-implementation review also been circulated. I beg to move. with that organisation. Mr Kniveton: Mr President, I beg to second and reserve my remarks. HARBOUR DUES (MERCHANT VESSELS) (1997) REGULATIONS 1996 — APPROVED The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution set out at item 3 on the order paper. Will those in favour The President: Hon. members, I apologise to the Court please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes for the delay occasioned by a related meeting. We proceed have it. with the order paper. Item 3, I call on the Minister for Transport. HARBOUR DUES (FISHING VESSELS AND Mr Brown: Thank you, Mr President, I beg to move: TUGS) (1997) REGULATIONS 1996 — APPROVED

That the Harbour Dues (Merchant Vessels) (1997) The President: Item 4, the Minister for Transport. Regulations 1996 be approved. Mr Brown: Mr President, I beg to move: This motion is the first of three of the orders on the order paper today concerning harbour dues. This motion That the Harbour Dues (Fishing Vessels and Tugs) is relative to the principal harbour dues regulations (1997) Regulations 1996 be approved.

Post Office Management — Review and Reorganisation — Question by Mr Crowe for Written Answer Harbour Dues (Merchant Vessels) (1997) Regulations 1996 — Approved Harbour Dues (Fishing Vessels and Tugs) (1997) Regulations 1996 — Approved T90 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 1997

The regulations provide rates of vessel dues in respect 1st April 1997 because 1st April is the date from which of fishing vessels and tugs. The previous increase in these annual dues paid in respect of pleasure vessels commence. harbour dues was 1st April 1995. There was no increase in The initial revenue anticipated as arising in a full year fishing vessels and tugs dues in 1996. from the increased harbour dues applied by the pleasure The new rates will come into force on 1st April 1997 if vessels and houseboat regulations is about £1,000 from the regulations are approved by Tynwald. To reflect this Manx pleasure vessels and about £300 from visiting period in which there has been no increase - that is, for a pleasure vessels, giving a total anticipated additional two-year period - the increase to offset inflation is 5.4 per revenue in the year 1997-98 of about £1,300. The new cent. The date of increases is 1st April 1997 instead of 1st rates will not affect revenue in the 1996-97 financial year. February 1997 for the merchant vessels dues which have We anticipate in the current year receiving a total of about just been approved because 1st April is the date from which £43,000 in harbour dues in respect of Manx pleasure the annual dues paid in respect of fishing vessels or tugs vessels, of which there are around 800 operational in each commence. year, and around £11,500 in respect of visiting pleasure Manx fishing vessel owners elect to pay their vessels craft. Mr President, I beg to move the resolution standing dues on an annual basis whilst masters of visiting vessels in my name. do not normally elect to do so, so they pay for each entry to our harbours. The additional revenue anticipated as arising in a full year from the increased harbour dues Mr Kniveton: I beg to second, sir, and reserve my remarks. applied by the fishing vessels and tugs regulations is about £400 from the Manx fishermen vessels and about £500 from the visiting fishing vessels, so giving a total Mr Downie: Mr President, I just rise, really, to clarify anticipated additional revenue in a full financial year of one or two points regarding this particular issue. about £900 to the department. The new rates will not affect The minister may be aware that for several years there revenue in 1996-97 for the reasons I have explained, and have been a number of boats moored in the harbour, we anticipate in the current year receiving harbour dues particularly in Douglas, which have now become places amounting to £9,000 from visiting fishing vessels and about of residence and I am not aware of the department's £7,000 from the Manx fleet. particular stance with regard to these vessels. I know that The Isle of Man Fishermen's Association wrote to say they are a bone of contention with a number of the regular that they agreed that the proposed 5.4 per cent increase harbour users in the fact that berths are at the minimum in was fair and had no complaints with the rise, other than to the harbour and it would appear that there are several make what they called their obvious remark that `it would vessels now which people are using as a place of abode be better with no increase so far as the economies of fishing and going to work from there and returning to the boat, at this time are concerned.' Mr President, I beg to move they are connected up to an electricity supply, and I the resolution standing in my name. wondered, when reading through the new regulations, whether provision was made within them to actually deal Mr Kniveton: I beg to second, sir, and reserve my with this particular problem. I know of one vessel that has remarks. lain in the same berth now for over four years and it is a bit galling when regular users of the harbour are really The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution deprived of the opportunity to put their boats in because set out at item 4 on the order paper. Will those in favour people, in my opinion, if they are not using the harbour please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes for business or for pleasure purposes and using their craft have it. in the normal manner, are taking up valuable space. Now, whether they are classed as houseboats or what I am not sure; it is not entirely clear in the regulations. HARBOUR DUES (PLEASURE VESSELS AND The other thing I would ask is that to date I am not sure HOUSE BOATS) (1997) REGULATIONS what the situation is regarding sewage disposal from these 1996 —APPROVED vessels. Obviously, people are using equipment on these boats; it is going somewhere. Is there a requirement by the The President: Item 5, again the Minister for Transport. authorities to control this by regulation? And also, what happens to the refuse that these vessels generate? Does Mr Brown: Mr President, I beg to move: somebody come from the harbours division on a regular basis and collect it or does the person just go to the nearest That the Harbour Dues (Pleasure Vessels and House litter bin and fill it up every day as and when they require Boats) (1997) Regulations 1996 be approved to be cleared out? Now, I think there is a problem here, hon. members, The regulations provide rates of vessel dues in respect and I am not sure whether the regulation which the minister of pleasure vessels and houseboats. The previous increase is bringing before the Court actually deals with it, but what in these harbour dues was 1st April 1996. The new rates I would like the minister to do is to give this Court an will come into force on 1st April 1997 if the regulations undertaking that if this regulation does not cover this are approved by Tynwald Court. To correct this period - particular issue, he will look at it and perhaps tighten up in that is, a one-year period - the proposed increase to offset this area, because I believe that there is some abuse now inflation is 2.5 per cent. The date of increase is, as I say, with these: they are nothing more than hulks, they will

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never put to sea again properly and in fact they are just pollute the harbour with sewage or anything else, they are being used as a form of residence in the town and are committing an offence and therefore action would be taken causing inconvenience for the genuine bona fide harbour by the harbourmaster or harbour-keepers through the user. Thank you, Mr President. department, so to pollute that could be dealt with quite easily, and that is a matter clearly for the boat owner to The President: Reply, sir? ensure he does not do that. What arrangements the boat owner who has a houseboat then makes to dispose of that Mr Brown: Yes, thank you, Mr President. I would refer sewage is a matter for him as long as he does not break the the hon. member and members to the regulations before law of the Isle of Man. them, and if they look on page 2, under 'Interpretation', it The other point as far as refuse goes: the harbours do clearly defines 'houseboat'. The department did - and I provide, of course, refuse bins, large ones, for boat owners think it is now two years ago - introduce new provisions to dispose of their refuse in and they are emptied, I think it for houseboats because people were starting to use them is, every day, seven days a week if I am right. Those bins to reside within harbours and were just paying the ordinary are therefore there for boat owners, and this charge of harbour dues, and if the member sees there, it says, 'A £27.66 recognises all these facilities that are there. So the houseboat means a vessel which is used or is constructed points of the hon. member, which are valid, I think the or adapted for use for the purpose of habitation in a harbour, department has covered, but certainly it is something where but a pleasure craft so used is not a houseboat if at all we would have no hesitation in requesting Tynwald to times whilst it is in the harbour, it is equipped, maintained support us in making changes if we felt they were and crewed in a condition of readiness for use in navigation necessary. as a pleasure craft and the master of the vessel complies with those provisions of the Act and byelaws having effect Mr Downie: Could I rise on a point of clarification, Mr under the Act which apply to pleasure craft.' So if they are President, and just ask if this £27.66 is per annum or per not applying to the byelaws of the department for pleasure week? craft and they are living on it, purely using it as a boat to live on, then it will be defined as a houseboat. Mrs Hannan: Per week - it says so. If I can then ask hon. members to go to the back of the regulations, if they so wish, they will see there that under Mr Brown: Per week, Mr President. table 3, it is headed 'Houseboats', and the hon. members will see that it says there: 'For remaining in a harbour at The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution any quay, pier or mooring or being laid up or otherwise set out at item 5 on the order paper. Will those in favour lying in a harbour for a period exceeding seven days', the please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes first seven days or any period less than seven days, it is have it. now £27.66. Now, my recollection is that it was substantially lower because it was just classed as a pleasure craft up to about two years ago, and the department EUROPEAN COMMUNITIES (MISUSE OF specifically brought this in to overcome the problem that DRUGS) (APPLICATION) ORDER the hon. member for West Douglas, Mr Downie, is pointing 1996 — APPROVED to. So I think that certainly, as far as the department is concerned, at present we are satisfied that our regulations The President: Item 6, the Chief Minister. cover the terminology 'houseboat' where people are actually living on a boat within a harbour, and I have to Mr Gelling: Mr President, I beg to move: say that if we find there is a problem there, then certainly we would look to seeking Tynwald approval to amend our That the European Communities (Misuse of Drugs) regulations, so I can certainly give that undertaking if we (Application) Order 1996 be approved. have a problem. I understand that the introduction of the regulations to cover houseboats in fact has resolved many The United Nations Convention against Illicit Traffic if not all the problems that were being encountered with in Narcotic Drugs and Psychotropic Substances, known regard to those sort of vessels. as the Vienna convention, was extended to the Isle of Man The other point I would just make is that, if a vessel is derelict within the harbour, then of course under the on 2nd December 1993. The primary legislation necessary Harbours Act the department has clear powers to seize the to implement the convention was contained in the Criminal vessel and sell it or dispose of it and they have to give Justice Act 1991. To complete the legislative adequate notice, as stated under law. So we cannot get to a implementation of the convention, it is necessary to put in position where we can have derelict boats just lying round place some technical rules. This is proposed to be done by the harbours of the Isle of Man; there are powers to deal first applying the relevant EC instruments by this order, with that in the designated harbours. which is made by the Governor and Council under the The other point I would just say is that as far as the European Communities (Isle of Man) Act 1973. points the hon. member raised, he said, 'What about sewage The order will have the effect of triggering powers disposal from the houseboats?' Well, I presume - and I conferred upon the Council of Ministers under the Act think I am right but I will check - that if anybody was to enabling regulations to be made dealing with intra-

European Communities (Misuse of Drugs) (Application) Order 1996 — Approved T92 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 1997 community trade and external trade in substances which That the Social Security Legislation (Application) could be diverted to the illicit manufacture of narcotic drugs (No. 11) Order 1996 be approved. and psychotropic substances. At the same time, the Department of Local Government and the Environment This order applies to the Island three items of subsidiary will make a set of regulations under the Misuse of Drugs legislation of the United Kingdom Parliament relating to Act 1976, requiring producers and suppliers of these national insurance contributions and the calculation of state substances to make and preserve records of substances pensions. All of the matters covered by the three statutory manufactured and supplied and an order updating the list instruments relating to this subsidiary legislation form a of such substances in the Misuse of Drugs Act 1976. Mr part of the reciprocal agreement with the United Kingdom President, I beg to move item 6 on our agenda paper today. and, to the extent necessary, the changes have been applied administratively pending formal approval. Details of the Mr Corkill: I beg to second and reserve my remarks. provisions have been set out in a memorandum which has been circulated to members. I beg to move, Mr President. The Speaker: Mr President, I am happy to go along with the particular motion which is in front of us, but in Mr Barton: I beg to second and reserve my remarks. fact schedule 1, which introduces 3677/90, is fine; then you get to the article itself, and it is divided into articles Mr Waft: Mr President, just a small point, but I and the sixth article says that in order to ensure the correct wondered if the minister would take on board the learned application of articles 2, 4 and 5, each member state shall Clerk of Tynwald's notes with regard to this item, with adopt within the framework of its domestic law the regard to the fact that it is good drafting practice to specify measures necessary to enable the competent authorities - the schedules by number as this avoids the possibility of in our terms that means the Department of Local error and should one of the schedules be inadvertently Government - to obtain information on any orders for omitted. This point has been made on previous occasions operations involving the scheduled substances, and I do in these briefings but has been studiously ignored. Would not think any of us are going to object to that. But it says the minister take that point back on board for future also in (b): 'to enter operators' business premises in order reference? Thank you, Mr President. to obtain evidence regarding irregularities.' Now, on many an occasion when dealing with primary legislation, we have The Attorney-General: Mr President, if I may assist had long arguments over whether or not officers of various the mover, the matter of comment by the learned Clerk is government departments should have the right to enter, not ignored. It is a matter of drafting; it is a subjective giving notice, walking in or by warrant and I would like to interpretation on drafting. The legislative draftsmen receive know from the hon. member if it is practical at this stage - the Tynwald briefing, then I receive it, I confer with them and I would assume it may not be - but under which Act and I can assure this hon. Court that if an order is drafted will our local government officers act when dealing with in a particular manner, it is not in ignorance of any comment this particular directive and under which power therefore made by the learned Clerk or indeed any hon. member of will they have to give notice? Can they simply walk in or this Court. I trust that assists the minister and the mover. will they require a warrant? The President: Reply, hon. member? The President: Reply, sir? Mrs Christian: Mr President, I would just ask that Mr Gelling: Mr President, I thank Mr Speaker for his members note the comments of the Attorney-General and question but I have to admit right from the outset that the I will consider it when we get further drafts submitted to Act is unknown to me at this time, but certainly I will us for future orders. consult with the Attorney-General's Chambers and will inform all members of what in actual fact is the answer to The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution the hon. Speaker's question. I beg to move. standing at item 7 on the order paper. Will those in favour please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution have it. standing at item 6 on the order paper. Will those in favour please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. SOCIAL SECURITY ADMINISTRATION ACT 1992 (APPLICATION) (AMENDMENT) ORDER 1996 —APPROVED SOCIAL SECURITY LEGISLATION (APPLICATION) (No. ll) ORDER The President: Item 8, the Minister for Health and 1996 — APPROVED Social Security.

The President: Item 7, the Minister for Health and Mrs Christian: Mr President, I beg to move: Social Security. That the Social Security Administration Act 1992 Mrs Christian: Mr President, I beg to move: (Application) (Amendment) Order 1996 be approved

Social Security Legislation (Application) (No. 11) Order 1996 — Approved Social Security Administration Act 1992 (Application) (Amendment) Order 1996 — Approved TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 1997 T93

This order serves to correct a small number of drafting to us getting them, so they can be sent back to be altered .10 errors in the order which applied to the Island, the UK before they are issued out to members? As I understand it, Social Security Administration Act 1992. These came to that is not the situation. It is after the fact rather than with light in consequence of the application to the Island of the the fact. Jobseekers Act 1995. Details of the provisions have been set out on a memorandum which has been circulated to Mr President: Does the hon. member wish to reply? hon. members. I beg to move. The Attorney-General, I think, would wish to.

Mr Barton: I beg to second and reserve my remarks. The Attorney-General: Mr President, it is a wide- sweeping question that has been raised by the hon. member The President: I will put the resolution, hon. members, Mr Gilbey. The situation is, in another island and another set out at item 8 on the order paper. Will those in favour place there is a correction system where matters are please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes corrected of typographical errors and other minutiae, and have it. it is with some regret to practitioners that the procedure has not been adopted by this hon. Court and I would suggest, with respect, such procedure to the hon. Court. SOCIAL SECURITY LEGISLATION The situation is that, with reference to subordinate (APPLICATION) (No. 12) ORDER legislation, my chambers have recently undertaken two 1996 —APPROVED extensive seminars with appropriate officers from all departments and divisions of the government. Some The President: Item 9, the Minister for Health and departments have, within their offices, persons who are Social Security. experienced in drafting subordinate legislation particularly of a technical nature; for example, the Department of Transport has two such persons. Other departments require Mrs Christian: Mr President, I beg to move: subordinate legislation more infrequently or their legislation is not of such a technical nature. The latter That the Social Security Legislation (Application) largely depend on my chambers for drafting. Where, (No. 12) Order 1996 be approved. however, personnel have the adequate expertise within the department, they often draft their own subordinate The United Kingdom negotiates with various countries legislation which may or may not be referred to my at various times reciprocal agreements on social security. chambers. The situation then is that in the course of In negotiating these agreements, the United Kingdom, at procedures, matters are then placed with the learned Clerk's the request of the department, also negotiates on behalf of office and become orders and items on the order paper. I the Isle of Man. The purpose of the order being applied is can assure this hon. Court that when the briefing paper is to update those reciprocal agreements with other countries received - and I receive it presumably the same time as all to include jobseekers' allowance. Again the memorandum hon. members receive it - I myself and the legislative has been circulated to members which I hope has explained draftsmen both consider each and every item. We have in the position fully. I beg to move. the past advised certain departments to withdraw items where we consider that the point raised by the learned Clerk Mr Barton: I beg to second and reserve my remarks. is not only a well-taken point but also a point of significant substance. There may be points which are well taken but Mr Gilbey: Mr President, I would like to raise a point which are a matter of opinion - and I have the greatest again regarding the blue paper from the learned Clerk respect for the learned Clerk's opinion and I also have some which again refers to this item. I do not want to refer in respect for the draftsman's opinion, and a little respect for detail to what he says but I would like to get one thing my own now and again! (Laughter and interjections) quite clear following the remarks of the learned Attorney- General, and that is, can we members who get given this Mr Delaney: A hell of a lot of opinion! take it that the Attorney-General's Chambers always read each of these and that, if they think correction is needed, The Attorney-General: This hon. Court, I trust, will they will make it? The reason I ask this is that if that is accept that now and again lawyers do differ - that is why automatically happening, it seems to me there is no point we have plaintiff and defendants - and that the situation is in us who are laymen in these matters reading these, and I that we will also by case authority accept the judicial certainly will not do so because I shall leave it to the interpretation of certain items, but I can give this assurance Attorney-General's department to put anything right which to this hon. Court that every word that is contained in the he thinks and needs putting right. But I would like a very Tynwald briefmg is carefully considered by my chambers clear explanation as to what happens. before I come before this Court and indeed hopefully in time, and always in time, may I say, where motions can be Mr Delaney: A final question on this, Mr President, is withdrawn, if it is appropriate so to do. Having said that, I that, as I understand it, there is a specified time under would not wish in any way to detract from the Tynwald standing orders when these documents have to be sent to briefings or to in any way be deemed to imply any members, so I would like an explanation, if this is factual, preventative medicine towards the learned Clerk! Thank how it is then, and does our learned Clerk get them prior you, Mr President.

Social Security Legislation (Application) (No. 12) Order 1996 —Approved T94 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 1997

The President: Does the hon. minister wish to - amendments to the 1978 Convention on Standards of Training, Certification and Watch-keeping for Seafarers Mrs Christian: Mr President, there is little to reply to, which come into operation internationally on 1st February save to say that I hope that we may find some mechanism 1997. Enabling powers for the regulations are contained for having all these opinions submitted to us without this in section 34A of the Merchant Shipping (Masters and occasionally unseemly behaviour or exploration of the Seamen) Act 1979. The STCW, which is the standard of opinions in the Court. I am sure there must be a better way training, certification and watch-keeping for seafarers, and I hope we will seek to find it. convention, has been extended to the Isle of Man since July 1985. As a consequence, my department is obliged to The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution implement the 1995 amendments to this convention which standing at item 9 on the order paper. Will those in favour have been agreed by IMO and will enter into force please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes internationally on 4th February 1997. The regulations will have it. provide that Manx ships continue to be manned in accordance with the convention and will be able to continue to trade in ports in other signatory states without hindrance. MERCHANT SHIPPING REGISTRATION There are no significant resource implications for my REGULATIONS 1996 — APPROVED department. The issuing of endorsements will be undertaken by the marine administration as at present. The President: Item 10, the Minister for Transport. Forms and certifications will be computer-generated and an administration fee is charged to cover the cost of issuing Mr Brown: Mr President, I beg to move: certificates and endorsements under the regulations. My department has consulted widely with representatives of That the Merchant Shipping Registration Regulations the shipping industry who will be affected by the 1996 be approved. regulations. A presentation was held in July 1996 at which the details of the regulations were discussed with ship The Merchant Shipping Registration Regulations 1996 managers, and any comments received have been are supplemental to the Merchant Shipping Regulations incorporated into the final draft. Mr President, I beg to Act 1991. The regulations specify certain administrative move the resolution standing in my name. matters relating to the procedures for registering ships on the main, or part I of the register, and which the 1991 Act Mr Kniveton: I beg to second, sir, and reserve my provides are to be covered by regulations. The regulations remarks. have been drafted in consultation with the Attorney- General's Chambers, the Department of Transport in the The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution United Kingdom, registration authorities in other red ensign set out at item 11 on the order paper. Will those in favour territories and representatives of the ship management please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes companies established in the Island. Comments received have it. have been incorporated into the final draft. Mr President, I beg to move the motion standing in my name.

Mr Kniveton: I beg to second, sir, and reserve my MERCHANT SHIPPING (MASTERS AND remarks. SEAMEN)(REVOCATION) ORDER 1996 — APPROVED The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution set out at item 10 on the order paper. Will those in favour The President: Item 12, the Minister for Transport. please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. Mr Brown: Mr President, I beg to move:

That the Merchant Shipping (Masters and Seamen) MERCHANT SHIPPING (MANNING AND (Revocation) Order 1996 be approved. TRAINING) REGULATIONS 1996 —APPROVED This order is consequential to the previous agenda item. The President: Item 11, the Minister for Transport. The purpose of this order is to revoke certain provisions of three orders made under the Merchant Shipping (Masters Mr'Brown: Thank you again, Mr President, I beg to and Seamen) Act 1979, which dealt with the requirements move: for ships' doctors, certification of crew cooks, certification and watch-keeper standards on ships and the issue of engine That the Merchant Shipping (Manning and room and navigational watch-rating certificates. The Training) Regulations 1996 be approved. revoked provisions are now redundant, being superseded by the Merchant Shipping (Manning and Training) . The purpose of the Merchant Shipping (Manning and Regulations of 1996. I beg to move the resolution standing Training) Regulations 1996 is to give effect to recent in my name.

Merchant Shipping Registration Regulations 1996 — Approved Merchant Shipping (Manning and Training) Regulations 1996 —Approved Merchant Shipping (Masters and Seamen) (Revocation) Order 1996 — Approved TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 1997 T95

Mr Kniveton: I beg to second, sir, and reserve my regulations. There are no resource implications and I beg remarks. to move, Mr President.

The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution Mr Radcliffe: I beg to second, Mr President. standing at item 12 on the order paper. Will those in favour please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution have it. set out at item 14 on the order paper. Will those in favour please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. HYDROCARBON OIL DUTIES ACT 1986 (AMENDMENT) (No. 3) ORDER 1996 —APPROVED CUSTOMS AND EXCISE MANAGEMENT ACT 1986 (AMENDMENT) ORDER 1996 —APPROVED The President: Item 13, the Minister for Treasury. The President: Item 15, the Minister for Treasury. Mr Corkill: Mr President, I beg to move: Mr Corkill: Mr President, I beg to move: That the Hydrocarbon Oil Duties Act 1986 (Amendment) (No. 3) Order 1996 be approved. That the Customs and Excise Management Act 1986 (Amendment) Order 1996 be approved. The purpose of this order is to make several minor amendments to the Hydrocarbon Oil Duties Act 1986 The purpose of this order is to remove from the Act a resulting from the revised arrangements contained within reference to a revoked section of the Hydrocarbon Oil the Hydrocarbon Oil Duties (Marine Voyages Relief) Duties Act 1986, revoke a subsection that refers to an Regulations of 1996. This order has no resource already revoked section of the Act and substitute an up-to- implications and I beg to move, Mr President. date reference for a redundant one. There are no resource implications and I beg to move, Mr President. Mr Radcliffe: I beg to second, Mr President. Mr Radcliffe: I beg to second, Mr President. The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution standing at item 13 on the order paper. Will those in favour The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes standing at item 15 on the order paper. Will those in favour have it. please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it.

CUSTOMS AND EXCISE ACTS (APPLICATION) (AMENDMENT) (No. 3) ORDER EXCISE DUTIES (SURCHARGES OR REBATES) 1996 — APPROVED ACT 1986 (AMENDMENT) ORDER 1996 — APPROVED The President: Item 14, the Minister for Treasury. The President: Item 16, the Minister for Treasury. Mr Corkill: Mr President, I beg to move: Mr Corkill: Mr President, I beg to move: That the Customs and Excise Acts (Application)(Amendment)(No. 3) Order 1996 be That the Excise Duties (Surcharges or Rebates) Act approved. 1986 (Amendment) Order 1996 be approved.

The purpose of this order is to make amendments to The purpose of this order is to remove from the Act two two pieces of applied legislation: the Hydrocarbon Oil redundant references regarding supplies of oil to vessels Regulations 1973 and the Hydrocarbon Oil (Amendment) engaged in marine voyages. One refers to vessels involved Regulations 1981. The 1973 regulations are amended firstly in voyages in home waters, the other refers to fishing boats. by removing from them three regulations dealing with the Since July 1995 most vessels engaged in marine voyages supply of oil as fuel to ships in home waters, and secondly have been able to receive their fuel duty free. There are no by replacing a reference to excise warehousing. The 1981 revenue or resource implications and I beg to move. regulations are amended by removing references in them to section 19, sub-paragraph (1) of the Hydrocarbon Oil Mr Radcliffe: I beg to second, Mr President. Duties Act 1986. This section has been repealed. This order should be considered together with the The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution Hydrocarbon Oil Duties (Marine Voyages Relief) standing at item 16 on the agenda paper. Will those in Regulations of 1996 and is necessary to amend the law in favour please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The the light of the new arrangements governed by those new ayes have it.

Hydrocarbon Oil Duties Act 1986 (Amendment) (No. 3) Order 1996 — Approved Customs and Excise Acts (Application) (Amendment) (No. 3) Order 1996 — Approved Customs and Excise Management Act 1986 (Amendment) Order 1996 — Approved Excise Duties (Surcharges or Rebates) Act 1986 (Amendment) Order 1996 — Approved T96 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 1997

FINANCIAL SUPERVISION (AUTHORISED FINANCIAL SUPERVISION (SCHEME COLLECTIVE INVESTMENT SCHEMES) PARTICULARS) (AMENDMENT) REGULATIONS (AMENDMENT) REGULATIONS 1996 —APPROVED 1996 — APPROVED The President: Item 18, the Minister for Treasury. The President: Item 17, the Minister for Treasury. Mr Corkin: Mr President, I beg to move: Mr Corkill: Mr President, I beg to move: That the Financial Supervision (Scheme Particulars) (Amendment) Regulations 1996 be approved. That the Financial Supervision (Authorised Collective Investment Schemes) (Amendment) Regulations These amendments are a consequence of the 1996 be approved. introduction of the eligible markets regime. They require the manager of an, authorised scheme to include in the These regulations amend the Financial Supervision scheme particulars a list of the specific markets which he (Authorised Collective Investments Schemes) Regulations has deemed eligible for investment by that particular 1988. The main purpose of the amendment before hon. scheme. The amendments enhance the information which members today is to introduce the eligible markets regime. is provided to investors and enable a better informed The amending regulations also make textual amendments investment decision to be made. The provisions will ensure to the authorised schemes regulations by replacing outdated that the Isle of Man regulations are equivalent with the references to the Banking Act with references to the United Kingdom in this respect and I beg to move, Mr Investment Business Order 1991. President. Under the old regulations the manager of an authorised scheme had to invest most of the scheme's assets in Mr Radcliffe: I beg to second, sir. securities traded on a market listed in the regulations known as 'approved markets'. These were broadly the major The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution securities and derivatives markets of the world. However, standing at item 18 on the order paper. Will those in favour the list was inflexible and prevented managers launching please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes authorised schemes which are dedicated to the new have it. international markets which have recently gained recognition. The eligible markets regime abandons the prescriptive list of approved markets. EXPORT OF GOODS (CONTROL) Under the new regime the manager of an authorised (AMENDMENT No. 4) ORDER 1996 scheme, in consultation with the scheme's trustee, is able (APPLICATION) ORDER 1996 —APPROVED to himself decide whether a market is appropriate for a particular scheme. In doing so, the manager must be The President: Item 19, the Minister for Treasury. satisfied that it meets criteria for eligibility which are set down in the regulations. In addition the trustee must be Mr Corkill: Mr President, I beg to move: satisfied that proper custody can be achieved and that the That the Export of Goods (Control)(Amendment market provides adequate liquidity. These requirements No. 4) Order 1996 (Application) Order 1996 be approved. are explained in guidance notes published by the Financial Supervision Commission. The purpose of this order is to amend the principal order, The eligible markets regime is closely based on current the Export of Goods (Control) Order 1994, primarily in provisions in the United Kingdom and the amendments order to ensure that it contains only military goods and will ensure that the Isle of Man remains equivalent with goods subject to national controls over and above those the United Kingdom in this respect as designated territory which are imposed by EC law. This is part of a tidying-up status requires. The new approach means that Isle of Man process clarifying the differences between national export fund managers now have the same degree of investment controls and those export controls covered by European flexibility as their UK counterparts in respect of the markets Community law. The effect of the order is primarily to in which an authorised scheme may invest. I beg to move, replace the whole of part 3 of schedule 1 to the order with Mr President, that the Financial Supervision (Authorised that which was formerly group 1 of part 3. This group is Collective Investment Schemes) (Amendment) also known as the military list. Regulations of 1996 are approved. The order also redesignates some goods so that they fall under group 1, amends the definition of 'vessel' and Mr Radcliffe: I beg to second, Mr President. finally it removes some redundant controls from the principal order. The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution The order is necessary to ensure that the Island is not standing at item 17 on the order paper. Will those in favour used as a back door for exports of licensable goods from please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes the United Kingdom. There are no resource implications have it. and I beg to move, Mr President.

Financial Supervision (Authorised Collective Investment Schemes) (Amendment) Regulations 1996 — Approved Financial Supervision (Scheme Particulars) (Amendment) Regulations 1996 —Approved Export of Goods (Control) (Amendment No. 4) Order 1996 (Application) Order 1996 — Approved TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 1997 T97

Mr Radcliffe: I beg to second, Mr President. to duty at a higher rate. For example, amounts of leaded petrol have been mixed with unleaded petrol to create a The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution mixture suitable for use in vehicles requiring leaded fuel. standing at item 19 on the order paper. Will those in favour This was then sold at a premium over the price of unleaded please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes petrol but with considerably less excise duty being have it. accounted for than was intended by the legislature when the law was originally framed. This order intends to close that loophole, Mr President, and I beg to move. ALCOHOLIC LIQUOR DUTIES ACT 1986 (AMENDMENT) (No. 2) ORDER Mr Radcliffe: I beg to second, Mr President. 1996 —APPROVED The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution The President: Item 20, the Minister for Treasury. standing at item 21 on the order paper. Will those in favour please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes Mr Corkill: Mr President, I beg to move: have it.

That the Alcoholic Liquor Duties Act 1986 (Amendment) (No. 2) Order 1996 be approved. VALUE ADDED TAX ACT (AMENDMENT) (No. 4) ORDER 1996 — APPROVED The purpose of this order is to amend the Alcoholic Liquor Duties Act 1986 in respect of two matters concerned The President: Item 22, the Minister for Treasury. with cider. Firstly, a new section 58A is inserted into the Act taking effect from 1st January 1997. This provides for Mr Corkill: Mr President, I beg to move: the definition of 'sparkling cider', a new duty band which was introduced in the recent budget and which comes into That the Value Added Tax (Amendment) (No. 4) effect from 1st January. The definition resembles that for Order 1996 be approved. sparkling wine. Sparkling cider of whatever strength up to 8.5 per cent will be liable to a rate of excise duty higher The purpose of this order is to amend the Value Added than standard or strong cider. Tax Act of 1996 and to take steps to safeguard the revenue The other change concerns confirming in law the by introducing anti-avoidance measures clarifying certain practice of customs and excise in taking an alcoholic parts of the Act and in most cases placing a three-year cap strength of a cider declared on a bottle or other container on repayments of VAT. The change contained in article 3 rather than the actual strength if the latter is less. Therefore is designed to enable the Treasury to recover input tax from I beg to move, Mr President. a trader, which relates to supplies written off by another trader as a bad debt for VAT purposes. With effect from Mr Radcliffe: I beg to second, sir. midnight on 26th November 1996, where persons have reclaimed VAT on supplies on which they have made no The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution payment and on which the supplier has claimed bad debt standing at item 20 on the order paper. Will those in favour relief the Treasury will be able to recover the VAT so please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes reclaimed. The change is effected by insertion of a new have it. subsection (4A) in section 36 of the Act. I beg to move, Mr President.

HYDROCARBON OIL DUTIES ACT 1986 Mr Radcliffe: I beg to second, Mr President. (AMENDMENT) (No. 4) ORDER 1996 — APPROVED The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution standing at item 22 on the order paper. Will those in favour against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes The President: Item 21, the Minister for Treasury. please say aye; have it. Mr Corkill: Mr President, I beg to move:

That the Hydrocarbon Oil Duties Act 1986 VALUE ADDED TAX ACT (INCREASE OF (Amendment)(No. 4) Order 1986 be approved. REGISTRATION LIMITS) ORDER 1996 —APPROVED The purpose of this order is to close a loophole in the existing law as regards mixtures of rebated and unrebated The President: Item 23, the Minister for Treasury. oils and the adding of octane enhancers to unleaded petrol to create super unleaded petrol. There have been cases Mr CorkM: Mr President, I beg to move: reported in the United Kingdom of persons mixing oils after the duty point in order to create a fuel which, if it had That the ValueAdded Tax (Increase of Registration been created before the duty point, would have been liable Limits) Order 1996 be approved.

Alcoholic Liquor Duties Act 1986 (Amendment) (No. 2) Order 1996 — Approved Hydrocarbon Oil Duties Act 1986 (Amendment) (No. 4) Order 1996 — Approved Value Added Tax Act (Amendment) (No. 4) Order 1996 — Approved Value Added Tax Act (Increase of Registration Limits) Order 1996 — Approved T98 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 1997

The purpose of this order is to increase the threshold say to the Court that to ask a minister to tackle 11 or 12 above which a trader must register for VAT and the limit resolutions in a row does not make a lot of sense to me, below which he may apply for deregistration. The order and I would like perhaps to chat with the Chief Minister achieves this purpose by making amendments to schedules about it in the days ahead. 2 and 4 to the Act. I beg to move, Mr President.

Mr Radcliffe: I beg to second, Mr President. CHEMICAL WEAPONS ACT 1996 (OF PARLIAMENT) — EXTENSION TO THE The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution ISLE OF MAN — APPROVED standing at item 23 on the order paper. Will those in favour please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes The President: Hon. members, we move on to item have it. 25. The Chief Minister.

Mr Gelling: Mr President, I beg to move: DUAL-USE AND RELATED GOODS (EXPORT CONTROL) REGULATIONS 1996 That Her Majesty be requested to direct, by order (APPLICATION) ORDER 1996 —APPROVED in Council, that the provisions of the Chemical Weapons Act 1996 of Parliament shall be extended to the Isle of The President: Item 24, the Minister for Treasury. Man with appropriate exceptions, amendments and modifications. Mr Corkill: Mr President, I beg to move: The object of the Chemical Weapons Act is to give legal That the Dual-Use and Related Goods (Export effect to the convention on the prohibition of the Control) Regulations 1996 (Application) Order 1996 be development, production, stockpiling and use of chemical approved. weapons and on their destruction. This convention is also known as the Chemical Weapons The purpose of this order is to apply in Island law the Convention. The purpose of the convention is to prohibit 1996 regulations governing the export of goods that have the acquisition, development, production, stockpiling and uses that render them liable to restrictions or licensing. use of chemical weapons and to require their destruction. They are to replace the previous 1995 regulations. The It also bans military preparations for the use of such regulations give effect to provisions contained in an EU weapons or assisting, encouraging or inducing anyone to regulation of 1994 and also represent part of a tidying-up do any of these things. Further it requires that all existing exercise as regards export control law. The principal change stocks of chemical weapons be destroyed along with the is to remove from the scope of the regulations exports of facilities used to produce them. parts that may be used in weapons of mass destruction to An international organisation based in the Hague will member states of the EU. However, exports of such parts oversee the implementation of the convention and to destinations outside the EU or to member states for undertake the inspection. Mr President, I beg to move item onward export outside the EU can still be controlled. 25. Another change is that under these regulations the requirement to keep and produce to a proper officer Mrs Hannan: I beg to second. documents relating to a licence application only relates to applications for a community licence. Other changes relate Mr Delaney: A question, Mr President? separate licences being required for certain specified exports of technology.or to minor consequential or drafting The President: Certainly, sir. amendments. In view of recent media interest in the Island as regards Mr Delaney: While we all agree with that - I hope we exports of sensitive goods it is more important than ever all agree with this particular convention - could the minister that the Island demonstrates that it is prepared to fulfil its tell us, did he manage to find out whether or not phosphorus international obligations and ensure that the Island is not shells, which are a chemical derivative, were included or, used as a back door for illicit exports from the United if not, why not? And we know that Britain is an exporter Kingdom or the EU. There are no resource implications of these, but I think that for a chemical weapon which has arising from the order and I beg to move, Mr President. been used - probably the worst weapon that can be used- on a battlefield, why has that not been included if it is not Mr Radcliffe: I beg to second, Mr President. included?

The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution The President: Reply, minister? standing at item 24 on the order paper. Will those in favour please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes Mr Gelling: I am not doing very well, Mr President. I have it. will have to check that for the hon. member. I would congratulate the hon. minister on getting through these with such a smooth passage, but I would Mr Delaney: It is not a burning issue, I assure you!

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Mr Gelling: I cannot go through the information to find the department's chief adjudication officer. Again, an out but I certainly will find out and inform members. So I opportunity has been taken to update a number of small would beg to move item 25, Mr President. legislative references. I beg to move.

The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution Mr Barton: I beg to second and reserve my remarks. set out at item 25 on the order paper. Will those in favour please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution have it. standing at item 27 on the order paper. Will those in favour please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. WIDOWED FATHER'S ALLOWANCE SCHEME 1994 (AMENDMENT) SCHEME 1996 —APPROVED FISHING VESSELS (FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE) (AMENDMENT) SCHEME 1996 — APPROVED The President: Item 26, the Minister for Health and Social Security. The President: Item 28, the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry. Mrs Christian: Mr President, I beg to move: Mrs Hannan: Thank you, Eaghtyrane. I beg to move: That the Widowed Father 's Allowance Scheme 1994 (Amendment) Scheme 1996 be approved. That the Fishing Vessels (Financial Assistance) (Amendment) Scheme 1996 be approved. The Widowed Father's Allowance Scheme, which came into effect in April 1995, makes provision for a lump sum This amendment scheme is to clarify the department's widower's payment and a widowed father's allowance. The position on the Fishing Vessels (Financial Assistance) primary purpose of this amendment scheme is to provide Scheme. The department's view is that a fishing vessel is for appeals under the scheme to be heard by the social a vessel which is permitted to fish. There are stringent security appeal tribunal instead of by the department's chief licensing requirements for vessels and a vessel which does adjudication officer, and the opportunity has also been not hold a licence is not permitted to fish. This scheme taken to update a number of legislative references. I beg was and is intended to assist fishermen in the purchase of to move. fishing vessels. In practical terms this means a vessel and the necessary licence to enable it to fish. Mr Barton: I beg to second and reserve my remarks. When the scheme was first drafted and approved by Tynwald there was no question: a licence was attached to The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution a vessel. However, the situation has now changed and standing at item 26 on the order paper. Will those in favour licence eligibility has become a commodity in its own please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes market. This means that there are two markets: one for have it. vessels and one for licences. The market for fishing vessels means that both markets now have to be involved. This amendment clarifies the situation where someone RETIREMENT PENSION (PREMIUM) SCHEME wishes to buy a vessel with licence eligibility attached. 1993 (AMENDMENT) SCHEME The amendment makes clear that the vessel and licence 1996 —APPROVED can be assisted, as has been the position for the past 12 years. The amendment also refers to situations where The President: Item 27, the Minister for Health and someone buys a vessel but has to go elsewhere to buy Social Security. licence eligibility. Purchase of licence eligibility will only be assisted where the department is involved in purchase Mrs Christian: Mr President, I beg to move: and assistance in buying a fishing vessel. There is no intention of supporting, and this amendment does not That the Retirement Pension (Premium) Scheme permit, the purchase of a licence eligibility only. The 1993 (Amendment) Scheme 1996 be approved. market in licence eligibility is a regrettable development but cannot be ignored as it is very much a fact of This is a very similar resolution. The Retirement Pension fishermen's lives. Eaghtyrane, I beg to move the scheme (Premium) Scheme came into effect in October 1990. It standing in my name. makes provision for a payment to assist those pensioners who are generally too old to have participated in the state Mr Luft: I beg to second, Mr President, and reserve earnings related pensions scheme - that is, people of 75 my remarks. and over. Again the primary purpose of this amendment scheme is to provide for appeals under the scheme to be Mr Cannan: Mr President, this amendment is an heard by the social security appeal tribunal instead of by amendment of the 1990 scheme and it is my contention

Widowed Father's Allowance Scheme 1994 (Amendment) Scheme 1996 — Approved Retirement Pension (Premium) Scheme 1993 (Amendment) Scheme 1996 — Approved Fishing Vessels (Financial Assistance) (Amendment) Scheme 1996 — Approved T100 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 1997 that part of that scheme is flawed in that it says, 'Eligible Manx-born fishermen who have lived and worked away persons to benefit from this scheme must have been from the Island for a good number of years. The scheme is ordinarily resident in the Island for 10 consecutive years intended to assist those who have made a real contribution immediately preceding the date of application.' Now, it to the industry in the Island. The present condition is for has been my contention on behalf of certain Manx 10 years' residency immediately prior to the application. fishermen who may have in the past 10 years left the Island An alternative might be 10 years' residency at any time. for one or two years to try the fishing elsewhere, they return However, that would seem to spread the net too wide with and they find that they are not eligible for this scheme, regard to the funds available from my department. and I have been in correspondence with both the I can assure the hon. member that the department is not department and indeed the learned Attorney's office about unsympathetic to the circumstances he has outlined and I this matter, because it seems wrong to me that you have to am willing to consider further amendment - the scheme is have lived here, ordinarily resident, for 10 preceding years under review - subject to an acceptable wording being - you may not be Manx, you may have just arrived on the found that is workable but makes the scheme's intentions Island 10 years ago - and you are eligible for the financial clear to applicants. It could be that a very successful vessel benefits. You may have lived on the Island for 50 years of which is fishing out of another port but the people are not your life, you may have been away for three years in the living here could take all our funding and so we are not last 10 years, you may have been fishing all your life but talking about someone who has necessarily come back here suddenly you are not eligible for financial assistance under to live; it depends on residency whether they are actually this scheme or the original scheme. living here, and there is an awful lot of discussion when it I have drawn this attention, as I say, to the minister. I comes to who lives where, especially in other schemes am drawing public attention to it now because, unless the that we support. However, when we are looking at support minister feels able to compromise, then I may have to move in some agricultural areas we are also looking at residency a declaratory resolution in Tynwald to bring this anomaly and we are looking at residency of 20 years there. Within to public notice. It is quite wrong that certain Manx this scheme they also have to have a track record within fishermen are being disenfranchised in this financial fishing. My understanding is that the person that he is support. particularly talking about did not go somewhere else to fish but went somewhere else to do something else and The Speaker: Mr President, I think the hon. minister then came back to fish. has made it quite plain that there are now two markets: one for the licence and one for a vessel. Could the minister Mr Cannan: It is down to personalities now! equally tell us in her response, sir, whether or not the licence element will be subject to grant and loan the same as the Mrs Hannan: Well, you raised it, Mr Cannan. fishing vessel is or whether it will only be eligible for loan, (Members: Ooh!) considering that the licence element of the application With regard to licences the Speaker requested could very well be subject to large fluctuating market information on whether grant and loan would be made values? available to assist in the purchase of a vessel. That is possible but the scheme does allow for a variation of Mr Delaney: Mr President, I, like the member for support, whether it is so much grant, so much loan or Michael and like Mr Speaker, have certain reservations whether it would be just loan or just a grant. However, the about this and certain questions to ask. I have been in scheme is under review with regard to that. Members may contact at meetings with local fishermen. I am aware that be interested to know that initially the Isle of Man was they regret also the fact that there is an artificial market actually given a number of licences, but the value of the being created and their biggest concern is, as the fish get licences has increased remarkably over very many years scarcer and scarcer and quotas get tighter and tighter from and especially since the track record of catching has been Europe, ordinary Manx fishermen, because these licences involved in the licences and also quotas, producer will go up in value, will not have the money to be able to organisations and non-sector catching areas. compete in this market the minister makes reference to. I accept the point made by Mr Delaney that these The only people who will be able to do it are those with licences are extremely expensive to purchase but I would the purchasing power, and unfortunately our pound is also say that Manx fishermen have sold licences and they linked to the British pound and the incomes of other have sold licences in some cases separately and in some fishermen in other parts of Europe are substantially higher cases they have accumulated licences. So it is not safe to and the profits are substantially higher, and they, through say that we could blame literally everybody or Spain or agents, will buy up these licences and Manx fishermen whoever is buying up quota licences on this. It is a fact will be disenfranchised in their own land. that in the UK decommissioning is part of the future policy of fishing to try and reduce the catching ability, and The President: Reply, minister? therefore this is why the position has been adopted whereby a value has been put to a licence greater than in the past. Mrs Hannan: Thank you, Eaghtyrane. The question Eaghtyrane, I beg to move. of residency raised by the member for Michael is a difficult one. As soon as a rule is established in one way, an The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution exception arises to test the rule. Quite clearly there are standing at item 28 on the order paper. Will those in favour

Fishing Vessels (Financial Assistance) (Amendment) Scheme 1996 — Approved TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 1997 T101 please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes with Treasury to the making of an additional one-off have it. payment of £4 for eligible lamb under the sheep variable premiums scheme. This relates to lambs which have qualified in the 1996 calendar year and will cost an HILL SHEEP SUBSIDY SCHEME additional £250,000; this is on sheep meat which has passed 1996 —APPROVED through the meat plant. Taken together, these proposals represent the injection of an additional £324,000 into the sheep sector in the current financial year, giving a total for The President: Item 29, the Minister for Agriculture, the year of £7,640. Eaghtyrane, I beg to move the resolution Fisheries and Forestry. standing in my name. Mrs Hannan: Thank you, Eaghtyrane. I beg to move: Mr Luft: I beg to second, Mr President, and reserve my remarks. That the Hill Sheep Subsidy Scheme 1996 be approved. Mr Rodan: Mr President, I would like to make one or two comments, firstly, regarding the information paper that The hill sheep subsidy is a support mechanism to was circulated to members and the statement on which the provide incomes to farmers who maintain sheep of a hardy hon. minister just expanded a few moments ago where, in nature on mountain or hill land as designated by my relation to agricultural support, she says that the department department. It seeks to mirror UK support, the hill land does not have the funding available at current UK subsidy compensatory allowance. rates to implement Dr Beck's recommendations in full There are an approximate 12,500 hill sheep eligible for unless Isle of Man support measures with no UK subsidy spread amongst 23 producers. Payment is on a counterparts are ended and the moneys made available per ewe basis and the department requires that a fifth of transferred to the sheep sector. Now, it does sound to me the ewe flock is replaced each year by shearling ewes - that this is a little bit like 'divide and rule' of the agricultural these are ewes of one year old - to maintain a young profile industry in the Isle of Man. Presumably what the minister and fertile flock. The Fatstock Grading in the Isle of Man is referring to is the pig subsidy which takes place in the Report received by this Court in December 1995 identified Isle of Man but there is no equivalent in the United that the level of support available to the hill sheep sector had fallen behind that in the United Kingdom. The Kingdom. Now, I see some unfortunate elements if we are making department has acted on the relevant recommendation of support for one particular sector of the industry dependent the report and has held discussions with the Treasury and on whether or not there should be ongoing support for other the Flockmasters Association as to how the anomaly in sectors of the industry. I do not see the particular logic to support might be addressed. this line of argument because there are areas of support in As a result the Hill Sheep Subsidy Scheme 1996 is the United Kingdom where the United Kingdom has placed before the Court for approval. It seeks to increase support measures with no Isle of Man counterpart and that the basic subsidy from £6.40 per ewe to £8.40 per ewe becomes part of their total. For example, there is sugar and, with the concurrence of Treasury, to make a further beet, oilseed rape and other subsidies available to growers, payment of £4 per ewe for the subsidy year 1996. The and above all, in the United Kingdom they make less total rate of £12.40 per ewe would therefore represent an favoured area status payments; certainly, if the Isle of Man increase of £6 per ewe and cost an additional £74,000. formed part of the United Kingdom we would undoubtedly During the discussions the department attempted to get more aid through less favoured area status. reach agreement with the Flockmasters Association on the Now, it seems as if what the department done is simply principle of applying a two-tier payment system with a dividing the total agricultural subsidy by the total head of higher rate of subsidy on the first 1,000 ewes held in a population and working to that comparison between the flock, with half rates thereafter. This would have permitted two countries with no regard to the needs of the individual a rate of subsidy of £15 per ewe to be paid on a large components of the industry. So that would be the first point majority of the flocks. Agreement, however, has not been I would make. reached and the decision to present the scheme in the Regarding the figures within the scheme itself, the first fashion it is today is a compromise which expends the thing I would say is that there is no indication of available budget. permanence; the bulk of the payments are one-off and It is safe to say - and I possibly did not clarify this without prejudice. Secondly, the department seemed to situation this morning - that my department could support have ignored the last two financial years so that the the sheep sector in full using existing funding contained differentials which were experienced then in the sheep in the department budget, but again it has not reached sector are to be permanently lost. And, thirdly, the moneys agreement with the agricultural sector as to what schemes that are being allocated are clearly insufficient to meet the could cease or should cease to allow complete or similar recommendations that were contained in the Beck report. funding to this sector. The activities of the hill sheep farmer Now, I have looked into one or two of the figures and are integrated with those of the lowland sheep farmer. what these increases mean in practice. At the moment a I would wish to inform the Court that the department, typical average payment in the Isle of Man would be £12 in response to the fatstock grading report, has also agreed per ewe under this hill subsidy scheme. In the United

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Kingdom the payment made would be in the order of £26 discussing over quite a long time. We have been discussing to £28, and this includes less favoured area support of with the industry whether the schemes that we have in around £5. The proposed increase, which we are being place which are not similar to the United Kingdom should asked to approved today, will only take the payment in the go so that the areas addressed by the fatstock grading in Isle of Man to around £18 per ewe, still leaving a the Isle of Man should be complied with. There are a considerable shortfall. number of areas where, for different reasons, we support Considering that the Beck report highlighted that for the agricultural industry and they are not the same as the the years 1993 and 1994 the level of support in the Isle of United Kingdom, but we have to juggle them to make them Man for hill sheep was approximately half that of the fit to a Manx situation and we have to do it within the United Kingdom - in 1993, £14 as against £26; 1994, £12 funds that have been made available to us, and I am plus as against £24 - we can see that today's proposals do certainly not whingeing here about not having enough not go nearly far enough to remedy the deficiency. The funds for a particular area because I understand the points one-off payment without prejudice bears no resemblance made by the member for Onchan and other members when to the conclusions in the Beck report. The department's budgets are moved. If Tynwald decides that we should do own response, of course, to the Beck report of 1995, within one thing, then maybe the department should comply with the fatstock grading review that we approved, was that that absolutely to the word and we should give up some there should be an adjustment at the end of the financial schemes such as grants for farm improvement, for year to achieve parity with United Kingdom expenditure, structural support, agricultural credits, agricultural having regard to their sheep annual premium scheme. What holdings, loans to new farmers, wool purchase, pig feed we have got is simply taking a sum of money left in today's subsidy, sire grants, milk recording, meat inspection, budget and dividing it by the number of certified lambs artificial insemination. Maybe we should claim back the killed in the past calendar year. So we do not have a lead support that we give to the meat plant and charge an by the department for the industry; we have retrospective economical rent. These are the things which we are up payments coming out of nowhere, we have no forward against in the department to juggle that about. planning mechanism that will give confidence to the Now, if members are saying that we should conform to the fatstock grading to the letter what the UK gets on sheep industry and, I am sorry to say, it seems that this scheme to the extent that other areas of the agricultural industry falls way short of what needs to be done and certainly falls are going to suffer, then yes, right, that is something that way short of what Dr Beck recommended. Thank you, Mr my department can do. We are in discussions with the President. agricultural industry. They see it as threatening; they see, coming in at the back of them, a Tynwald resolution of Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I am just concerned about 1979 and 1995 plus the fatstock grading in the Isle of Man this because it seems like it is over a 30 per cent increase. and they expect new money. I believe they have written to We have had complaints when we have all been meeting the Treasury in recent days asking for a meeting with them the Treasury about the lack of money and 'we have got to to put forward the case to have new money in another pull back' and 'we have got to do this' and yet I see there sector, and this is it - new money into a different part of is a 30 per cent increase as far as sheep subsidies are the sector. concerned. I feel that maybe my colouring is slightly The member for Garff questioned the budget and different because I am now a member for an urban area dividing up the funds - 'we just made it fit'. Yes, we have rather than a rural area, but I do feel, as a person who has just made it fit because we have got that money available been in both camps, that the minister needs to justify to to us, and I would have thought the member who chaired me why we are actually putting such an increase on when the export of live animals would have supported us because we have so many claims from government that there is no we have supported the meat plant and animals being killed money in the kitty. To me, unless the minister can give me locally, which is something which I felt that report some reassurance what justification there is for such a large supported. increase, I shall be voting against this proposal because I He states also there is a lack of confidence felt by the think it is inconsistent to hear that we are supposed to cut farmers, but I think in the last couple of years there has back and pull our horns in, and what do we find here? We been an increase in the sheep population of 5,000, so I do find there is a 30 per cent increase for sheep to get altitude not really think there has been a lack of confidence felt by sickness (Laughter) and I just feel that the minister needs the farmers when it comes to sheep and sheep farming in to justify why there is such an increase, because if there is Man. not a real legitimate justification, it is not a matter of giving Mr Karran asked, why 30 per cent? In this particular them more, it is whether you should give it at all, in my instance I could explain that it is the first increase since humble opinion. 1991. It may be still a bit but it still does not comply to the wish of Tynwald - the resolution of 1979 and 1995; The President: Reply, minister? however, there is this argument that I have said that we are still discussing with the industry that it should be looked Mrs Hannan: Thank you, Eaghtyrane. I felt it was quite on as total support for agriculture and, if we have got more right that I should flag up that this is an area which I am money to pay to the sheep industry, that we will pay it as sure every department has to juggle with, whether they and when we have got it. support one area or another area at the expense of another I would hope that members will welcome this support area, and it is something which my department has been for the agricultural industry. We are going some way but

Hill Sheep Subisdy Scheme 1996 — Approved TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 1997 T103 we have certainly not made any promises to the sheep Mr Gelling: Mr President, I beg to move: industry that there is a lot more on the table. They know exactly where our funding is for the next year, it is That Tynwald approves the appointment of the supporting the BSE and we have got £1112 million in the following persons as members of the Water Authority - kitty for that. Thank you, Eaghtyrane. I beg to move. Mr P Karran MHK (Chairman) The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution Mr P H Newbold standing at item 29 on the order paper. Will those in favour Mr J Reid. please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. If I may, I should very briefly like to outline a number of points that are common to this motion on the membership of the Water Authority and also to item 32 on CHURCH COMMISSIONERS FOR THE ISLE OF the Isle of Man Post Office and 33, the Manx Electricity MAN (CONSTITUTION) RESOLUTION Authority. 1996 — APPROVED As hon. members will be aware from the papers that have been circulated, the Council of Ministers is suggesting The President: Item 30, the Lord Bishop. that there should be a significant change in the membership of these three particular statutory boards. At the outset, I The Lord Bishop: Mr President, I beg to move: would like to emphasise that this is in no way reflecting any dissatisfaction by the Council of Ministers at the way That the Church Commissioners for the Isle of Man in which the current members have carried out their duties. (Constitution) Resolution 1996 be approved. Instead, the current members have all served their respective boards very well indeed and I would like to This matter concerns a different flock. (Members: place on record the appreciation of the Council of Ministers Aah!) (Laughter) for the time and effort that they have all given as individuals in progressing the work of their respective statutory boards Mr Quine: He says that sheepishly! and for ensuring that each has continued to provide an effective service sensitive to the needs of their customers. The Lord Bishop: I come before you because it is a The Council of Ministers was aware of the need for change in the constitution of the church commissioners succession planning and to provide for a degree of turnover for the Isle of Man, and the change became evident to us in the membership of the respective boards so that those because it so happened that the representative of the Board with knowledge and experience are able to pass this on to of Finance and the representative of the Diocesan Advisory the newer members. It is for this reason, therefore, that the Committee for the Care of Churches happened to be a new names before you today are being suggested for clergyman and it therefore threw out of balance the ratio approval. between clergy and laity which we have on most of our The other point I would like to make is that full CVs boards and committees. It also inadvertently threw out the for the non-Tynwald members being recommended for balance of a clergyman of incumbent status who should approval have been circulated to all members of Tynwald also be on the committee. So we have revised the in advance of today's sitting and therefore I do not propose constitution of the commissioners to make it certain that to go into great detail on the background of each name all shades are represented; an incumbent would be being put forward for approval. represented and more laity will be elected to the number Turning to the specifics of this particular motion, namely of four, making the balance proper and more in favour of the membership of the Water Authority, I would like to the laity as well, and so all in all it will be a change which explain that Mr MHK is again being suggested will be to the advantage of the working of the church as chairman of this particular statutory board. He has commissioners in the Isle of Man. Mr President, I move indicated to me his wish to continue at the Water Authority item 30 standing in my name. in order to complete the process he has already started, namely the formulation of a major capital renewal Mr Luft: I beg to second, Mr President, and reserve programme. Over 75 per cent of the current water treatment my remarks. capability has been in continuous operation for in excess of 40 years, and nearly 50 per cent in excess of 60 years. The President: I will put the resolution, hon. members, The Council of Ministers is happy to suggest that Mr standing at item 30 on the order paper. Will those in favour Karran continue with this task and would hope that please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes Tynwald will approve his appointment as chairman of the have it. Water Authority. The other member being recommended for reappointment is Mr Peter Newbold, who has been a WATER AUTHORITY — APPOINTMENT OF member of the Water Authority since January 1992. Mr MEMBERSHIP APPROVED Newbold brings to the board his knowledge and experience in financial management, public health and general The President: Item 31, the Chief Minister. administration obtained during his time as chief executive

Church Commissioners for the Isle of Man (Constitution) Resolution 1996 —Approved Water Authority — Appointment of Membership Approved T104 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 1997 of the then Local Government Board and, more latterly, as The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution the director of the Post Office Authority. standing at item 31 on the order paper. Will those in favour The third member of the authority being recommended please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes to Tynwald is Mr John Reid. Mr Reid moved to the Island have it. when he was 13 years old and was educated here on the Hon. members, I think at this point in time we might Island. Following on from further education at Sheffield well take a little water with some tea in it. (Laughter) University, Mr Reid went on to pursue a very successful career in , culminating in his Mr Brown: It will be the same colour that is in Kirk appointment as manager of Radcliffe in 1988 Michael then! as well as bringing a broad and proven record in administration and finance to the authority. It is felt that The President: The Court will take a break and resume Mr Reid's knowledge and experience of electricity will be at 4.30 by the Court clock. relevant to the work of the Water Authority as much of its infrastructure relies on electrical pumping equipment of The Court adjourned at 4.09 p.m. one sort or another. This, then, is the Council of Ministers' recommendation to Tynwald on the membership of the Water Authority, and I beg to move the motion standing in my name at item ISLE OF MAN POST OFFICE - 31, Mr President. APPOINTMENT OF MEMBERSHIP APPROVED

Sir Miles Walker: I am pleased to second, Mr President. The President: Item 32, the Chief Minister to move.

Mr Cannan: Mr President, the Council of Ministers Mr Gelling: Mr President, I beg to move: may be happy with the Water Authority but I have to say that my constituents and myself are not happy. That Tynwald approves the appointment of the Let us start with last week. Most of you buy the Manx following persons as members of the Isle of Man Post Independent, you had pictures on the front page and in the Office - centre page of water bowsers in Kirk Michael, you have had members of the community there talking about filthy Mr A F Downie MHK (Chairman) water that has been going on for months and we are having Mr A Gawne today to approve the same old Water Authority. Now this Mr G K Quayle morning we had the chairman of the Water Authority Mr J Whittam ranting and raving about the Electricity Board not having Tynwald membership. Well, I can tell you, without The Council of Ministers is very pleased to put forward Tynwald membership at least the Electricity are supplying the name of Mr Alex Downie MHK as chairman of the current to my constituency efficiently, on time and when Isle of Man Post Office. Under the previous administration required. I have to say that the Water Authority as presently Mr Downie was chairman of the Planning Committee and, constituted has failed miserably to provide Little London fulfilling this role, he demonstrated his considerable energy with water (Mr Cretney interjecting), and how on earth and enthusiasm for the post and I have every confidence the Council of Ministers can remain happy with the Water that he will do an equally good job as head of the Post Authority as constituted when, as I say, Little London Office. cannot get water because of some bigotry... (Laughter and Rather like the Water Authority, the Isle of Man Post interjections) The water is dirty in most parts of the north Office will face a number of challenges in the coming years of the Island and on that basis I feel that the Water Authority partly as a result of competition and partly as a result of might actually be better without Tynwald representation, and be as efficient as the electricity department as it is new technology. This will be particularly interesting and a with Tynwald representation and we in Kirk Michael, as challenging time for the Isle of Man Post Office and one you have all seen in the papers last week, are down to on which I am sure Mr Downie will be able to concentrate bowsers and chaps getting water out of water bowsers. his energies. (Interjections and laughter) The Council of Ministers is recommending that the previous member, Mr Geoff Quayle, be reappointed for a The President: Reply, sir? further term of office in order to provide a degree of continuity between the old and the new board. Mr Quayle's Mr Gelling: Yes, Mr President, thank you very much. background in banking and his financial experience has As is obvious in the Kirk Michael area, there is a lot of been valuable to the work of the Post Office over the last work to be done (Mr Cannan interjecting) and therefore I five years and will, I am sure, be equally important during would suggest that, as we have put forward the membership the next five. of the Water Authority, they will have the enthusiasm to The first of the two new members being recommended do what I have explained is quite a mammoth job. I to Tynwald is Mr Alan Gawne. Mr Gawne has had a therefore would hope that members will support the distinguished managerial career in the brewery business members as put forward at item number 31 for the Water on the Island and during that time gained invaluable Authority. knowledge of financial management, sales and marketing

Isle of Man Post Office — Appointment of Membership Approved TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 1997 T105 which again will be useful to the Post Office in the years of the previous members, and in fact I would like to place ahead. on record Council's gratitude for the way in which the The second new member proposed to this hon. Court previous board has advanced the development of the today is Mr John Whittam. A number of hon. members, I authority in recent years which has seen increased am sure, will know that Mr Whittam was until 1995 efficiency and significant advances in the reliability of managing director of the Ronaldsway Shoe Company, supplies around the Island. where he had responsibility for over 200 staff, and during In considering the membership of the Manx Electricity that time was able to demonstrate his financial and Authority, Council was mindful of the age profile of the management skills in a most successful way by developing previous board and recognised the need for succession the company to its current status, which is well run, efficient planning. Having said that, Council was also mindful of and profitable. the need for continuity and for the knowledge and It is the view of the Council of Ministers that the experience of the previous board not to be lost. members of the Post Office, as recommended to this hon. In order to accommodate both requirements Council is Court today, have the enthusiasm, experience and skills to recommending the reappointment of Mr George Shimmin, take the Isle of Man Post Office forward and to successfully a member of the MEA board since 1984, prior to which he negotiate the challenges that lie ahead. Mr President, I beg was also a member of the Joint Electricity Authority to move the motion standing in my name at item number between 1979 and 1984. The other member of the board 32. being recommended for reappointment is Mr Brian Machin, the authority's chief executive. It is now common Mr Cretney: Mr President, I beg to second and, in so practice in the United Kingdom for the chief executive to doing, wish those who take on the challenge of the Isle of be a board member, and certainly the experience of the Man Post Office well in their tasks that lie ahead. I would Manx Electricity Authority has been such that the chief just, though, like to place on record my thanks and executive's membership of the board has not caused any appreciation to my vice chairman Mr Stewart Clague, who problem and in fact has been an advantage to the working has served the Post Office Authority on the Isle of Man of the board. Under the terms of the Electricity Act 1996 it for 15 years in this capacity; I do believe that the Isle of is a requirement that one or more persons on the board Man has been well served by Post Office Authority should have substantial experience in the generation and members through the years and I would like to place my distribution of electricity. Mr Machin is being thanks to those who served with me during my time of recommended to Tynwald today in part on the basis of his office. record as chief executive but also to comply with this particular requirement of the Electricity Act. The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution One of the other proposed new members of the authority set out at item 32 on the order paper. Will those in favour is Mr Michael Proffitt. Mr Proffitt has had a very successful please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes career in finance and has a proven record in the commercial have it. world, having returned to the Isle of Man in 1995 from the USA where he had spent some 13 years in the hotel business. Mr Proffitt's background is in accountancy, and again his appointment will satisfy that part of the Electricity MANX ELECTRICITY AUTHORITY - Act 1996 which requires that the authority should include APPOINTMENT OF MEMBERSHIP APPROVED one or more persons having substantial financial experience. The President: Item 33. The next proposed new member of the Manx Electricity Authority is Mr Terry Mackay, formerly a member of the Mr Gelling: Mr President, I beg to move: Isle of Man Post Office. Mr Mackay, as many of you will know, was, until he retired, the managing director of KWB That Tynwald approves the appointment of the Kenmac, a very successful manufacturing operation on the following persons as members of the Manx Electricity Island. Since retiring from Kenmac, Mr Mackay has been Authority - a member of both the Isle of Man Post Office and the Department of Trade and Industry's Energy Commission Mr W J McCallion (Chairman) and, during his time with both these bodies, has developed Mr B I Machin CEng FLEE MlnstE MIMechE a significant reputation as being an important contributor MIMgt (Chief Executive) to both bodies. Although a valuable contributor to the work Mr MJ Proffitt of the Post Office, it was the view of the Department of Mr T D Mackay Trade and Industry that his skills would be of even greater Mr G S Shimmin benefit to the Manx Electricity Authority. Finally, I would like to turn to the proposed chairman As hon, members will see from their order paper and of the Manx Electricity Authority, which is Mr John from the CVs already circulated, the Council of Ministers McCallion. Mr McCallion is a highly regarded member of is recommending a significant change in the membership the business community and between 1987 and 1993 was of the Manx Electricity Authority. I would again stress that the managing director of Shell Marine Personnel in this change is not in any way indicative of the performance Castletown and also chairman of Shell Ship Management.

Manx Electricity Authority — Appointment of Membership Approved T106 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 1997

The Council of Ministers considers that Mr McCallion and should shock every public representative. Are we that would make a very able chairman of the Electricity big a nation that we cannot use some personal tact when Authority, bringing with him, as he does, proven chairing dealing with our own people? Or are we saying to this skills and proven management skills from what has been a illustrious group of people, who have total authority as far very successful career at the highest levels of Shell as I can see, regardless of what we have said about the throughout the world. minister having some say in it, in dealing with people in Mr President, hon. members, this then has been a brief the Isle of Man, knowing the amount of expenditure that outline of those persons whom Council is recommending is going to have to be spent according to statements from to Tynwald for approval. I beg to move the motion standing Mr Machin, that we are going to allow them to carry on as in my name at item 33. they have been going on without any redress? I believe not, and I for one will be voting against this because I Mr North: I beg to second, Mr President. believe all we are doing here, with all the wonderful credibility that these people have in their past life, is that Mr Delaney: Mr President, first of all I want to put on we are going to see more of the same. They are a law unto record that the Chief Minister is aware of my concerns themselves and it is quite obvious from the old ladies and and thoughts on this proposal. Secondly, I want to make it old who have had the knock on their door clear that everything that has been said about these persons with summonses being virtually put in their hands for might be accurate, might be understated even, but this does wayleaves and on the flimsy excuse in letters and not give me any satisfaction whatsoever in relation to a correspondence that they have not taken the directive of Manx undertaking which is part and parcel of government, this authority. If that is as far down the road as we have no matter how far away you try to distance it, is a direct got, we hold little future for any quango that we are necessity for all residents of the Isle of Man, affects operating. The directive has not been put out to these people everyone's day, everyone's week, everyone's month, that you do hold this power, but you do it under the everyone's two months when they get their bills, but also authority of Tynwald and you do it through the minister, can be seen to be high profile by all members of this Court and I believe somebody has to answer what has been going in recent times and in past years. Having said that, I am on. aware that I cannot alter this without deleting names, The second thing I want to raise in the matter of this because this is a recommendation from the Council of authority is that we keep hearing statements made by Mr Ministers. Machin about whether or not we, the Isle of Man - which I am going to vote against this. I do not accept that is us - have a choice; you can either go for a cable or you someone who has reached 70 automatically has their brain can have a new power station. I have not even heard the scrambled. It might be when they get that long in politics costs yet. But this is what is coming out through the media. but it is not the case in the business world or in the We sitting here have not had any of this information. I do representation of the Manx people, and many persons over not know of any policy about putting a cable from Britain the age of 70 are still fully compos mentis when they are or anywhere else to the Isle of Man, but this is the high outside this particular Court and are quite capable of profile it has been given and it is worrying our people - looking after the interests of an undertaking this size. I do our people, not his, ours - your voters, hon. members of not believe that was a reason to change someone who, in the Keys. They are concerned that they are being told the words of the mover, in the words of the minister of the through the media, 'This is your choice, take it or leave department responsible for this, has done an excellent job. it,' virtually, and their representatives in this Court have If it has not broken down, do not try to fix it. not even seen figures and facts to substantiate anything Now, I want to go on to why I believe that we should that has been said. either have kept one other of the old board on here who There is something wrong in the state of this nation if gave excellent service and, secondly, what I see going this is the situation that is occurring, and somebody has to wrong here. Firstly the persons who have left this particular get a grip. I cannot. I can only say my piece under privilege group have given good service; they are gone because they here and I will say it today by voting against this have reached an age as they consider - a new government recommendation, because that is the only message I can policy, I presume - I take it it is going to happen in all the send out. I am not happy with what has gone on; what is departments. I hope this is not just being used as an excuse going to go on worries me stiff, because I was here long here, if this goes through, that when people reach 70 in enough ago to know that when Douglas power station was other departments they will have the same future; you are built, first of all the old power station was going that was past your sell-by date. There is no use just picking out one going to be the end of it all. Then we know old Douglas for political reasons. power station is still there and the members for West Secondly, the high profile in recent times of this Douglas know this well. Then the case was 'We will build undertaking - and I am going to use the word 'quango' - a new power station in Peel'. Now, we know there has has given me and, I believe, other members of this Court been an increase in population and we are all delighted we very great room for concern. The way they have handled have got an increase in business, but they are throwing themselves in this small community of dealing with the now another power station at you or a choice of a cable. It general public, particularly in the wayleaves, particularly is in the arena now. If it is not in the arena, why has it been in the way they have dealt with our people in handling the said? Somebody knows, but the problem is Tynwald does problems they have necessarily got to handle, shocks me not know, and I will be looking for a bit of support on this

Manx Electricity Authority —Appointment of Membership Approved TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 1997 T107 at least to send the message out that we do not want our that board; it is a crazy situation. I would be horrified to people treated as they have been treated in recent weeks; think that if we were to have changed the Water Board and we want them treated with some courtesy and respect. We put the chief executive of the Water Board on the board are not talking about one person who is upset by this; we with a load of new members, it would effectively have are talking about a lot of people. They cannot all be wrong. meant that we would have said, 'Well, they passed If you have a chance to see the correspondence you will everything in the past; the previous board agreed to this.' see the tone of the correspondence from this sub-division There is no-one there to stand up and say, 'Well, this was of government, and if that is what you want it will grow not the case.' from that Electricity Authority, it will creep its way into Hon. members, I will be supporting the member for other departments and eventually reach the departments Council because I agree with him. It is wrong, it has not of government and that is how we will treat all the Manx been well thought out, in my opinion, as far as the people. Stop it now, and the best way I am going to do it is membership is concerned. It is like the membership on by voting against this. Quite clearly I am not happy with some of these other recommendations - inconsistent, and I the recommendations and I am certainly not happy with believe that this hon. Court would be wrong to do it the way the Manx people are being treated by this authority. especially when we saw in this Court this morning there that we have different rules for the staff and different rules Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I have to say that I have for the management and now you have put the chief tremendous sympathy with the hon. member for Council. executive as a member of the board. It will only highlight I am trying to be fair about this proposal here in front of the industrial problems you have got. I believe if you go us. My concern is, as I voted against the old Electricity ahead with this all you are going to end up with is five Board in 1992 on the grounds that they had not addressed years of dictatorship because there will be nobody there, the issue of making sure that it did not end up being some and what we will have with the MEA when we are asked sort of dictatorship, and what we have succeeded doing questions in this hon. Chamber is a situation where the once again is a repeat of history. Now we hear great talk minister will not be able to be pinned down because of the about succession planning and the fact that it is about ages, fact of 'Oh, it is the MEA and I only have verbal control but yet in fact, when it came to the Water Authority, the over it'. I think we should throw this out and I will not be chap that succeeded was 10 years older than the chap that supporting this proposal before us. was in the job in the first place, and the fact was that he spent a lifetime in the electricity industry and he was going Mr Cannan: Mr President, I have just heard humbug, to the Water Authority. absolute humbug from an hon. member who is castigating Now, the point is the criteria for the membership for the MEA when I am prepared to support them and when this authority. It is important. It has a vital importance only in comparison, as I have already said before teatime, at second to the Water Authority as far as a commodity is least they are providing a service and people are not concerned for our people, and what concerns me about it compelled to pay for it. But here he talks about keeping is the fact that I feel, by putting the chief executive on the rick on an authority, people have to pay for the water even MEA, I believe you are going to create another dictatorship, if they do not get it and, if they do get dirty water, they you are going to have a situation where you have effectively have still got to pay for it and constituents write in and he got rid of the two that were the ones who tried to put some talks about keeping a rick on the situation - it is a case of rick and make the MEA accountable. They have been humbug and the pot calling the kettle black! At least with thrown off the MEA and so consequently what we have the electricity - and I am going to support this - they have, now is, if I vote for this, all I am going to vote for is yet as far as I am concerned, done in my constituency the very more arrogance and less consultation from the MEA, and best that they can and they are obliging, they have met if members vote for this I think it will be a grave mistake. with commissioners, they have met with myself and I see I am concerned when I hear of new policies from the no real problem with them. The dictatorship that this MEA. Now, if you dare not to sign a wayleave for an gentleman talks about is that you take your water whether electricity line, they will not only go to court but they will you like it or not, black or clear. At least if you want go to court to try and get the costs off you. It is all right if electricity you can talk to them, if you want water in Little it is some of the big boys, but what about the small people London, you cannot get it, but you have got electricity who have a hard enough job affording the legal costs to there. Thank you. start off with without being threatened that you are going to end up having to pick up the legal costs. Now, what Mr Karran: He wants aluminium in it! worries me is this: you are actually promoting that by supporting this today. We have this thing about the power Mr Radcliffe: Mr President, I will be very brief, but I line, where people in my constituency are stopping the do wish to pick up what the hon. member for Onchan has security of the north of the Island's power supply. What said, a sweeping statement once again that the cable to the annoys me is, let us talk about the bottom line, they want a Isle of Man is going to be fact. Now, this has got to be ring route for the Isle of Man so they can get their cable, challenged. He wants to get the record straight: it is not which they have made a decision on, and because there is fact, definitely not fact (Several Members: Hear,hear.) no accountability, they will be allowed to get away with and it is up to us in this Court here to correct that, because whatever they want, and especially now, when you put the first thing the media who are sitting at the back there this new board in, the chief executive is now a member of will say 'Cable is fact - Peter Karran said so,' (Interjections

Manx Electricity Authority — Appointment of Membership Approved T108 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 1997 and laughter) and no-one challenged him' and I think there and look forward. There are going to be problems that are are far too many of those sorts of statements in this Court going to have to be addressed; these are the people that which are unsubstantiated, to say the least. The cable is are going to search out those facts. At the end of the day not fact. It may be one day but as of today it certainly is major policy comes to this Court for us. Do not let us get not. the two mixed up.

Mr Cannan: Well done, Norman! Mr Brown: Mr President, indeed I have got up to echo a lot of what now has been said by the member for Onchan, Mr Houghton: In support of what has been said about and I do think it is very important when we are talking the attitude of the MEA, I would just like to make certain about appointing people that we do not get mixed up with comments about the attitude, or their perceived attitude, the things that go on within the authority that we may or whilst on the hustings speaking to some employees there may not support. They are separate issues, quite clearly who are rather frightened for their jobs in the shortening matters that will be, in some cases, referred through to this of hours and overtime that is currently being planned, and hon. Court and in other cases certainly to the department. indeed, if this so-called cable does arrive, then they do The hon. member earlier, Mr Karran, the member for indeed feel that their jobs may well be in jeopardy. Onchan, was on about the MEA and how it is and what all Also I would like to say that their dictatorship attitude goes on as was the hon. member for Council, Mr Delaney, with their customers, the customers who pay their bills. but I think it is a little bit ironic when we had a major You may be aware that post offices collect MEA accounts debate in the House of Keys - and the Legislative Council and of course we have a lot do with customers who have presumably considered it very carefully - on the new been under extreme pressure on a number of occasions Electricity Act of 1996, which in fact is only just coming from the MEA on the way in which they pay their bills. So into being on the 21st of this month due to an order that is I would just to support everything else that has been said, being laid before this hon. Court. So we have got a brand but they are very high profile in their domineering aspect. new Act, we have had extensive consideration of a new Thank you very much. Electricity Act for the reconstituting of the Manx Electricity Authority, we have set up in that Act new criteria for the Mr Corkin: Mr President, I would just to raise one Electricity Authority to take cognisance of energy-saving point which has not surfaced so far, and that is that the ways of dealing with electricity, of setting up systems that individuals put forward today on the order paper have a are more environmentally friendly and so on. All these certain public service spirit to the community of the Isle things have been incorporated into the new legislation. So of Man. They are part of that community, they wish to as far as, certainly, the members who were in the last House, contribute to the community. Their names are here, and to they have only recently had quite an extensive some extent it is unfortunate, I think, that members of the consideration of the format of the authority. public who have something to give, are not in the world of Now, as far as the membership goes, under schedule 1 politics but want to contribute in public service terms get of the 1996 Act, there is a clear constitution laid out which embroiled in a situation like this, because we are mixing was approved by Tynwald and through its branches and it the individuals with the policies of the MEA, the policies says, 'The Authority shall consist of a chairman and 4 other of this hon. Court. The hon. member for Council Mr members, all of whom shall be appointed by the Council Delaney with his views on those policies - who set those of Ministers,' subject to Tynwald approval,' and that is policies? The MEA - we are talking about new members. why we are here today, and it says, 'In appointing members It is the older members who have served the MEA of the Authority the Council of Ministers shall secure that, extremely well. There is a view for a change, there is a so far as practicable, the members of the Authority include view to set things up for the next few years with some new - (a) one or more persons having substantial experience in 1L) fresh blood, and I can vouch that some of the people on the generation and distribution of electricity, and (b) one this list are not going to be pushovers; they have come or more persons having substantial financial experience.' from extremely heavy backgrounds, for want of a better There is also a provision in there that they may appoint description, where they know how a board works, they the chief executive to the Electricity Authority board. Now, know where the power base is, and it is certainly quite clearly the Council of Ministers are complying with encouraging to myself that we actually have people on the that with the names they are putting forward here to Island available to us to serve in such a way to protect the Tynwald Court today, and I think that the concerns that public interest. are expressed by members about some of the policy issues I just want to make the point that we should not be that have been put out - and I have to say I think some of getting mixed up with cables and policy when in fact the the recent comment is unfortunate because it does create order paper is quite clear: we are looking at a list of eminent uncertainty, creates insecurity and I believe it is the people on this Island with qualifications that are more than responsibility of such an authority and its chief executive suitable to do this job for the public, and I would also make to know where they are going and to know they have got the point that the policy deficiencies that have been some sort of approval before they do that. That is a separate highlighted, the concerns of the public, politicians, relate issue and quite clearly members have that concern. They to a previous situation. We are looking to the future and I should be referred through to the Minister for the would ask members to bear that in mind when you look at Department of Trade and Industry who has a direct link on the CVs of the particular individuals concerned and to try behalf of us all, on behalf of the government as the minister

Manx Electricity Authority — Appointment of Membership Approved a TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 1997 T109 for that department, and we should not forget that I think basically I would like to pick up on the point ultimately the Department of Trade and Industry through that was made. Mr Radcliffe, the member of the Council, to the Council of Ministers can direct the MEA to do certain stated that certainly we have had no political input things whether they want to do it or not. whatsoever into cables or power stations; this is purely So those policy issues, I think, yes, we are all concerned the MEA's own exercise. So it is not, as the hon. member about because they affect people we know. As somebody Mr Delaney has said, that Tynwald members have no who many years ago now worked for the Electricity Board information. Well, I can second that because I am including and saw how they worked and how the old corporation us all in that. None of us have any information whatsoever. worked, I have to say we now have a very good authority I know the situation with regard to the chief executive in terms of how it provides us with electricity. What is has been, as Mr Brown, the hon. member for Castletown, very important, whatever we may all think, is that we do has explained, but I began to get the feeling that this was not appoint a board that goes back to the old system of something new but the chief executive was, of course, jumping around in circles and not planning properly to before that actually the vice-chairman of the authority and have a secure electricity system for all our people. In of course that has now changed so that he can be on the fairness now it is very rare we have breakdowns in the board. I think basically I would like members to concentrate electricity system compared with what there used to be really on the people and on the Act, and it was to put people when I was a young fellow: it was, in the winter months, on this particular authority who had certain expertise. I twice a week not uncommon for it to be off in Castletown think Mr John McCallion, a man who has been dealing because of the overhead systems. All those things we need virtually in his lifetime with people - I think that is to be conscious of. extremely important, a man who is skilled as a chairman, and I think that man will do an excellent job; you have got Mr Delaney: You were playing with electricity cables! a man there who is an expert in generation, which is Mr Machin; you have got Mr Proffitt, who is a financial and a Mr Brown: In Douglas the power station was falling managerial man; you have got Mr Mackay virtually to pieces, as we know. representing your manufacturers and the users in the Anyway, the point, I think, is the policy issues that we manufacturing of electricity, which is extremely important; might have concerns about and then there is the and you have got Mr George Shimmin, ex-councillor, a appointments of the authority, and all really we are here man, I would suggest, who represents the rest of the for is the appointment of the authority, and I hope hon. consumers of this Island. members will accept that what is being put forward complies with the legislation and that we quite firmly So, hon. members, I would say to you this is a five-year believe these people have got a lot to contribute to the Isle term of office. We have to look at the situation with regard of Man through the MEA to ensure that that authority can to the people hopefully that will see those five years plan and progress and meet the needs of the Isle of Man through, and I would hope that hon. members will give for the future. this authority a chance to actually prove to the people of this Island that they will be able to take on board the Mr Waft: Just a small point, Mr President. I would just criticisms that have been levied, perhaps, today and there like to congratulate the Minister for Industry in getting will be better public relations. As I said at the start, I am this gentleman as Chairman of the MEA. I have known quite sure that the Minister for the Department of Industry him personally and he has had a long and distinguished has taken on board what has been said and I am quite sure career in the oil industry. However, I would just point out that that will be relayed to them. that the gentleman that we have investigating the power So I would ask hon. members to support the resolution, needs for the Isle of Man also has a long career and has a to give these gentlemen an opportunity to go forward over distinguished history in the oil industry. As long as they the next five years with the plans and I think, quite honestly, do achieve objectivity and impartiality when they are that with the spread of experience we have there they will discussing generation, I hope they will look objectively at do a good job. I would therefore propose that item 33 on the gas pipeline that is going down the west of the Island. the agenda today be accepted by this Court. I am sure they will. Thank you. The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution The President: Does any other hon. member wish to standing at item 33 on the order paper. Will those in favour speak? If not, I will call on the minister to reply. please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. Mr Gelling: Thank you, Mr President. As members A division was called for and voting resulted as follows: have every right to do, they have been able to use this particular resolution to vent quite a lot of complaints, and I am quite sure that they have not gone unnoticed and one In the Keys - would immediately think there is a case of some public relations exercise or something that should be carried out For: Messrs Gilbey, Cannan, Quine, Rodan, North, Sir here because obviously members, I think, in general all Miles Walker, Mrs Crowe, Messrs Brown, Houghton, had a different slant on the reasons why they were objecting Crowe, Cretney, Duggan, Braidwood, Mrs Cannell, Mr to the MEA as such rather than the personnel whom this Downie, Mrs Hannan, Messrs Singer, Bell, Corkill, resolution is actually about. Kniveton, Gelling and the Speaker - 22

Manx Electricity Authority — Appointment of Membership Approved T110 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 1997

Against: Mr Karran -1 Consumer Affairs Mr Houghton is also a member of the Department of Education and the Department of Health The Speaker: Mr President, the motion carries in the and Social Security. I feel sure that Mr Houghton will make House, 22 votes being cast for and 1 against. a very valid contribution to the work of the board. Miming to the proposed two lay members of the board, In the Council - I am pleased to be able to confirm that both Mrs Margaret Priest and Mrs Jean Purvis have agreed to serve a further For: The Lord Bishop, Messrs Lowey, Barton, Waft, term of office. Everyone I have spoken to regarding the Dr Mann, Messrs Radcliffe, Luft and Mrs Christian - 8 work of the Board of Consumer Affairs has been particularly complimentary about the work of these two Against: Mr Delaney -1 individuals. Mrs Priest has been a member of the Board of Consumer Affairs now since January 1991 and Mrs Purvis The President: In the Council, hon. members, 8 votes since October 1991 and I am personally very grateful to have been cast in favour of the resolution, 1 vote against. them both for agreeing to give up their personal time for a I declare the resolution carried. further term of office. Mr President, hon. members, this then is the proposed membership of the Board of Consumer Affairs and I beg BOARD OF CONSUMER AFFAIRS - to move the motion standing in my name at item 34. APPOINTMENT OF MEMBERSHIP APPROVED Mr Karran: I beg to second. The President: Item 34, the Chief Minister. Mr Bell: Mr President, just one small point which has Mr Gelling: Mr President, I beg to move: just crossed my mind during the presentation. I have absolutely no disagreement with the list of members which That Tynwald approves the appointment of the has been proposed to this hon. Court, but the point which following persons as members of the Board of Consumer has struck a chord with me is the linking of the Consumer Affairs - Affairs Board with the Department of Trade and Industry. The Consumer Affairs Board, I understood all along, is Mrs P M Crowe MHK (Chairman) there to look after the interests of the consumer but the Mr G H Waft MLC Department of Trade and Industry also now has Mr J R Houghton MHK responsibility for retailing and the interests of the retailers, Mrs A M Priest and I just wonder if he sees any conflict there arising Mrs J Purvis between these two elements being represented by the same department? The Chairman of the Board of Consumer Affairs being proposed by the Council of Ministers is Mrs Pam Crowe The President: Reply, sir? MHK. Although a newly-elected member of the House of Keys, Mrs Crowe has already demonstrated substantial Mr Gelling: Thank you, Mr President. Yes, this is commitment and energy, and this, together with her something that we discussed, and the situation is of course commercial experience, should enable her to contribute to the link has always been purely to see the legislation the board through the position of chairman in an effective through, using a department as a vehicle, because we have way. always tried to make sure that the Consumer Affairs, as I would also like to inform members of Tynwald that at the hon. member has said, is standing apart from the politics a recent meeting of the Council of Ministers it was agreed and therefore we do not see any different conflict really to change the link between the Board of the Council of with the DTI, as we did not see anything with the DoLGE Ministers from the Department of Local Government and at the time. So that was really the reason, to use the the Environment to the Department of Trade and Industry. Department of Industry as the vehicle through which there Mrs Crowe's membership as a member of the Department would be a line of communication through to the Council of Trade and Industry will provide a useful link from the of Ministers. I beg to move item 34. board to the department whenever the board has a need to refer matters to the department and on to the Council. The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution The next proposed member of the board is Mr George standing at item 34 on the order paper. Will those in favour Waft MLC. As chairman of the Civil Service Commission, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes Mr Waft is not able to take up membership of a department have it. but is not barred from becoming a member of a statutory board. I am pleased, therefore, that Mr Waft has agreed to become a member of the Board of Consumer Affairs, as this is one way in which his knowledge and experience COMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION can be used to the benefit of government. — MEMBER APPOINTED Another new member of the board is Mr John Houghton MHK. As well as being proposed for the Board of The President: Item 35, the Chief Minister.

Board of Consumber Affairs — Appointment of Membership Approved Communications Commission — Member Appointed TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 1997 T111

Mr Gelling: Mr President, I beg to move: Mr G H Waft MLC (chairman) Hon D North MHK That His Honour Henry Callow, Chairman of the Mr J N Radcliffe MLC. Gaelic Broadcasting Committee, be reappointed as a member of the Communications Commission for the term The proposal before this hon. Court today is that the of office from 1st February 1997 to 4th November 1999. chairman of the employers' side of the Whitley Council should be Mr George Waft MLC. Traditionally it has been The members of the Gaelic Broadcasting Committee the case that the chairman of the Civil Service Commission have recently been reappointed by the Council of Ministers is also the chairman of the employers' side of the Whitley to enable them to carry on the work they started back in Council and I am pleased to say that Mr Waft has agreed September 1993. His Honour Henry Callow has been to take on this role as well as his chairmanship of the Civil reappointed as chairman and under section 12(3) of the Service Commission. Broadcasting Act 1993 the chairman is a member of the I am also grateful to Mr Norman Radcliffe MLC for Communications Commission. Consequently the approval agreeing to continue as a member of the employers' side of this Court is being sought for his appointment as a of the Whitley Council. Mr Radcliffe was a member under member of the Communications Commission for the term the previous administration and I am very pleased to be of office from 1st February 1997 to 4th November 1999. able to retain his knowledge and skills and to provide Mr President, I move 35 on our agenda paper today. continuity on the council for this term of office. The third member of the employers' side of the Whitley Mr Brown: I beg to second and reserve my remarks. Council being proposed is the Hon David North MHK. The constitution of Whitley Council requires that the Mr Lowey: Just on a point of order. I certainly have no council shall consist of two members of Tynwald, elected objection to the resolution but it does raise another by Tynwald on the recommendations of the Council of interesting point. In a lot of these selections we are Ministers, at least one of whom shall be a member of the appointing people for a fixed term of five years and it does Council of Ministers. I am quite sure that Mr North will not give the Council of Ministers flexibility except if Old make a valuable contribution to the employers' side of the Father Time or the reaper comes along and takes them Whitley Council. away. There should be somehow a more flexible tool to Mr President, I beg to move the motion standing in my give the right to move people on and off, apart from having name at item 36 on today's agenda. to resign, and I just wonder. In this particular one it is a fixed period for a shorter time but on the others they are Mr Brown: I beg to second and reserve my remarks as for five years with no review, and whether they are doing a past member. a good job, you are stuck with them for five years unless you then have the public embarrassment. I just wonder, The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution when we review the workings of government, if that standing at item 36 on the order paper. Will those in favour particular point could be borne in mind. please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. Mr Gelling: Yes, indeed, Mr President. Of course we are governed by the Statutory Boards Act but the hon. Council member's comments are noted. I beg to move, sir. MANX HERITAGE FOUNDATION - APPOINTMENT OF MEMBERS APPROVED The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution standing at item 35 on the order paper. Will those in favour The President: Item 37, the Chief Minister. please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. Mr Gelling: Mr President, I beg to move: That Tynwald approves the appointment of the EMPLOYERS' SIDE OF THE WHITLEY following persons as members of the Manx Heritage COUNCIL FOR THE ISLE OF MAN PUBLIC Foundation - SERVICE (MANUAL WORKERS) - APPOINTMENT OF MEMBERS APPROVED Hon N Q Cringle SHK (chairman) Sir Miles R Walker MHK The President: Item 36, the Chief Minister. Dr F Bazin Mrs A V Craine Mr Gelling: Mr President, I beg to move: Dr B Stowell That Tynwald approves the appointment of the It may be helpful to hon. members if I briefly quote following persons as members of the Employers' Side of from extracts of section 2 of the Manx Heritage Foundation the Whitley Council for the Isle of Man Public Service Act 1982 which sets out the objects of the foundation. (Manual Workers) - Section 2(a) states that the foundation shall promote and

Employers' Side of the Whitley Council for the Isle of Man Public Service (Manual Workers) — Appointment of Members Approved Manx Heritage Foundation — Appointment of Members Approved T112 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 1997 assist in the permanent preservation of the cultural heritage FINANCIAL SUPERVISION COMMISSION - of the Island and in particular provide facilities for members APPOINTMENT OF MEMBERS APPROVED of the public to enjoy and acquire knowledge of that heritage. Subsection (2) states that 'cultural heritage' shall The President: Item 38, the Minister for the Treasury. include crafts, language, history, natural history, literature, music, folklore, art, folk dance, architecture, archaeology, Mr Corkill: Thank you, Mr President. I beg to move: industrial development, law and ecology of the Island or associated with the Island and its people.' That Tynwald approves of the Treasury's It is the recommendation of the Council of Ministers appointment of - that the chairman of the foundation should be the Hon Mr Mr WA Gilbey MHK as chairman Speaker. Mr Speaker's interest and knowledge of Manx Mr L G Bell as vice-chairman; and heritage is well known and I have no hesitation on behalf Mr J E Noakes of the Council of Ministers in recommending to this Court Mrs R V Penn JP and that he be appointed chairman. Mr C J Tummon Also recommended as a member of the foundation is Sir Miles Walker. Sir Miles also has a well-proven track as members of the Financial Supervision Commission. record of interest in matters associated with the Island's heritage and I feel sure that his interest and commitment In accordance with article 3, paragraph (2), of the to this aspect of our culture will serve the foundation well. Financial Commission Order 1983, I seek Tynwald The previous lay members of the Manx Heritage approval for the following appointees of the said Foundation included Dr Bazin and Mrs Craine. A vacancy commission: Mr Gilbey, Mr Bell, Mr Tummon, Mrs Penn was caused by Mr Robert Quayle, a previous member, who and Mr Noakes. indicated that he wished to stand down. It is proposed that I beg to move these nominations for membership of the this vacancy be filled by Mr Brian Stowell who is involved Financial Supervision Commission, with Mr Gilbey taking in a wide range of activities associated with Manx culture the place of my predecessor, Mr Gelling. Mr Bell, well and heritage. Hon. members will see from the details known in the Island's banking community, joined the circulated about Dr Stowell that he has been involved in commission in 1985. Mr Tummon, recently retired the Manx language and its Celtic heritage for a number of managing director of Coutts and Co (Isle of Man) Limited, years and I have no hesitation in recommending his served over 30 years in the National Westminster Bank appointment to this hon. Court today on behalf of the group. Mrs Penn, a respected lawyer in the Island, is already Council of Ministers. with the commission since 1993 and Mr Jim Noakes, an The first of the previous members of the foundation experienced banking supervisor, has been with the commission since its creation in 1983. The commission's being recommended for reappointment is Dr Fenella Bazin. remaining member, Mr Cowin, who joined the commission Again hon. members will have seen from her CV that her in 1991, has not sought re-election. No replacement for knowledge of and involvement in Manx heritage and Mr Cowin is proposed at this time but I would like to put culture is well established and during her time on the on record my thanks on behalf of the Isle of Man foundation she has made a very valuable contribution to Government for Mr Cowin's involvement and his service its work. to the FSC. The other member of the foundation being I am sure that hon. members will recognise the recommended for reappointment is Mrs . Mrs importance of the FSC's task in regulating the Island's Craine was appointed to the Manx Heritage Foundation in finance sector and I am sure that you will agree that the April 1996 as a result of the vacancy caused by the direction of the commission should be in the hands of resignation of Mr Charles Guard who took over as people of stature and experience who command the respect administrator of the foundation shortly prior to this date. of the financial sector here and in whom other supervisory Despite having only been appointed in April 1996, Mrs authorities can have confidence. I am pleased that we have Craine has already made a valuable contribution to the secured the services of such people and have confidence work of the foundation and once again I have no hesitation in the nominations before you today and I would ask you on behalf of Council in recommending her reappointment to accept them. I beg to move, Mr President. to you today. Mr President, I beg to move the motion standing in my Mr Radcliffe: I beg to second, Mr President. name at item 37 on today's agenda paper. Mr Crowe: Mr President, whilst fully supporting all the nominations for the Financial Supervision Commission, Mr Brown: I beg to second and reserve my remarks. in particular the chairman Mr Gilbey who I am sure will do an excellent job, I believe the Treasury has missed an The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution opportunity to revitalise the FSC by including on the standing at item 37 on the order paper. Will those in favour commission a minority of industry representatives. It is please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes the normal practice in other regulated centres to include have it. industry representatives on the board of regulatory

Financial Supervision Commission — Appointment of Members Approved tql TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 1997 T113 authorities. Certainly this is seen as an essential feature of Insurance and Pensions Authority, to which was transferred the various UK regulatory bodies such as the Securities all the functions of the Insurance Authority which is now and Investment Board, IMRO and the Pensions and abolished. Insurance Authority. In the Channel Islands Guernsey's The Insurance and Pensions Authority consists of a Financial Supervision Commission has always had strong chairman, who shall be a member of Tynwald, and not industry representation, whilst in Jersey the new Jersey less than two other persons appointed by the Treasury but Financial Services Department is to be comprised of three subject to the approval of this hon. Court. In accordance politicians, three industry representatives and three with article 3, sub-paragraph (2), the Treasury has commission executives. appointed Mr Norman Radcliffe, Dr Hastings, Mr Cooper, The benefits the regulatory authorities can derive from Mr Woolhouse and Mr Fletcher as members of the the extensive commercial and professional experience and Insurance and Pensions Authority. expertise that practising industry representatives can Mr Radcliffe MLC has acted as chairman of the provide is generally welcomed and accepted elsewhere. Insurance Authority since December 1988. Dr Hastings I put this suggestion forward as a positive move and has been its chief executive since January 1987. Mr one that I would like to see the Treasury Minister consider, Woolhouse and Mr Henry Cooper, Bryan Henry Cooper, that is, widening the membership to include industry have been members since October 1996 and Mr Fletcher representatives that would allow those currently in the has been a member since 1986. industry to add valuable contributions to the commission's Dr Hastings, a fellow of the Chartered Insurance meetings. Thank you, Mr President. Institute and fellow of the Institute of Risk Management, was appointed as insurance supervisor and chief executive The President: Reply, minister. to the Isle of Man Insurance Authority on 1st January 1987. Mr Corkill: Well, I thank the member for North He was appointed chief executive to the Insurance and Douglas for his comment and for his knowledge of the Pensions Authority on 1st January of this year. He has industry and certainly I will make sure that Treasury does substantial and wide experience of the insurance consider the points he has raised, the fact that industry marketplace and an international reputation of considerable perhaps needs further representation and the comparisons standing. made with other similar situations in other jurisdictions. Mr Cooper, formally managing director of Sedgwick So I am pleased to be able to acknowledge the comments Risk Management Services is a fellow of the Chartered by the hon. member, bearing in mind that there is still scope Institute of Management Accountants. He has considerable for further membership which can be brought for the practical experience of not only the Island's captive attention of this Court in the future. Thank you, Mr insurance business, but also of such business President. I beg to move. internationally. Mr Woolhouse, formerly a managing partner in Watsons The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution Wyatt, the consulting actuaries, is a fellow of the Institute standing at item 38 on the order paper. Will those in favour of Actuaries. He has a longstanding experience of the please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes Island's and the international life assurance marketplace. have it. Mr Fletcher, formerly of the Royal Insurance Group, is a fellow of the Chartered Insurance Institute. He has substantial experience of systems development, INSURANCE AND PENSIONS AUTHORITY - organisation and methods and telecommunications. APPOINTMENT OF MEMBERS APPROVED Members of this hon. Court will recognise the considerable breadth and substance of experience that this The President: Item 39, the Minister for the Treasury. membership will bring to bear upon the new authority and I would wish to beg to move that these names be accepted Mr Corkill: Mr President, I beg to move: by Tynwald Court. I beg to move.

That Tynwald approves of the Treasury's Mr Gilbey: I beg to second, Mr President, and reserve appointment of - my remarks.

Mr J N Radcliffe MLC as chairman and The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution Mr W J Hastings PhD BA FCII FIRM standing at item 39 on the order paper. Will those in favour Mr B H Cooper FIMA please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes Mr J T Woolhouse FIA and have it. Mr D V Fletcher MA FCII as members of the Insurance and Pensions Authority. ELECTION OF DEPUTY PRESIDENT

The Insurance and Pensions Authority Order 1996 was The President: Item 40, hon. members. We turn now approved by this hon. Court on 10th December 1996. This to the election of a Deputy President of Tynwald in order established a new statutory board by the name of the accordance with section 5(1) of the Constitution Act. Now,

Insurance and Pensions Authority — Appointment of Members Approved Election of Deputy President T114 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 1997 the Constitution Act provides two categories who are The President: Now, we have five nominations before eligible to be elected as President of Tynwald and they are the Court. Are you happy that nominations close? elected members of the Council and Members of the House of Keys. The Court elects its Deputy President by resolution Members: Agreed. and the resolution requires to be passed by a majority of members present and voting, voting as one body and by The President: Thank you. May I have the voting ballot. Nominations, please. papers circulated, please? Once the voting papers are in your hands, hon. members, the learned Clerk will read out Mrs Hannan: Could I propose Mr Speaker? the names of those nominated. There is just one vacancy. I think all members are in possession of voting papers. Mr Cannan: I rise to second and support Mr Speaker, Learned Clerk, will you read out the names of those sir. It is appropriate that he should be our Deputy President. nominated, please?

The President: Are there any further nominations? If The Clerk: Mr President, the names of the members not, I will put the name of Mr Speaker to the Court. Will proposed and seconded are, in the Council, Mr Waft, and those in favour please say aye; against, no. The ayes have in the Keys, in alphabetical order, Mr Cannan, Mr Crowe, it. The ayes have it. I declare Mr Speaker duly elected. Mr Rodan and Sir Miles Walker.

The President: Would Mr Radcliffe act as teller for STANDING COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC the Council, please? ACCOUNTS — MEMBERS ELECTED The Speaker: Would Mr Brown act as teller for the The President: Now, hon. members, we turn now to Keys, please? the Standing Committee of Public Accounts and here we have a rather peculiar method of appointment of this A ballot took place. committee. The standing order is quite clear: 'There shall be a Standing Committee on Expenditure and Public The President: Hon. members, the result of the ballot: Accounts. The Committee shall have a Chairman elected Mr Waft, 4 votes; Mr Cannan, 9 votes; Mr Crowe, 8 votes; by Tynwald, a Vice-Chairman elected by Tynwald, four Mr Rodan, 4 votes; Sir Miles Walker, 8 votes. Now, I have other Members elected by Tynwald and a quorum of three to take the advice of the learned Clerk on this one because Members. Presiding Officers and Members of the Council there is a slight conflict in standing orders but, learned of Ministers shall not be eligible for appointment to the Clerk, would you produce me the standing order with the Committee.' Now, against that background I am going first majority, please? It relates to standing order 5.3 which is of all to invite you to elect a chairman of the Public positive in 'The President shall declare elected the Accounts Committee. Can I have nominations, please. candidates who have the majority of the votes of the Members present and voting', and that is the standing order Mr Barton: I propose Mr Waft. that I am working under in respect of this resolution. Now, as the standing orders have a conflict, and it is Mr Karran: I second Mr Waft. only a slight conflict, I am going to take the decision as President that this is the applicable standing order and I would ask the Standing Orders Committee in the future to Mr Braidwood: I would like to propose Mr Crowe, have a look at any conflict that may exist in respect of Mr President. these elections, but 'The President shall declare elected the candidates who have the majority of the votes of the Mrs Hannan: I will second Mr Crowe. Members present and voting', and that, hon. members, is in fact the hon. Mr Cannan. Mr Cretney: I would like to propose Mr Rodan, Mr Now, hon. members, having taken that decision we President. come... No, I am sorry. I find this most interesting because it is a situation which has not occurred before in my Sir Miles Walker: I would be pleased to second Mr experience and these are new standing orders which have Rodan, Mr President. a slight conflict between them. Now, the one I am going on is the one that requires a majority. Now then, having Mr Crowe: I propose Sir Miles Walker. said that, no hon. member has received a majority and we have to go and vote again on the basis of the names that Mr Gelling: I would second, Mr President. are before us. If we cannot get a solution on the next ballot, we shall then start eliminating hon. members until we do The President: Are there any further nominations? get a solution to the problem. I would just point out to hon. members here why your Dr Mann: Could I propose Mr Cannan? chair has been perplexed and it relates to standing order 5.3(8). You will also find standing order 5.4(2) is in conflict Mr Quine: I beg to second, sir. with that. So I have to take a decision and that is the

Standing Committee of Public Accounts — Members Elected TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 1997 T115 decision I have taken, that we go for the (8) provision of Mr Radcliffe: I second Mr Crowe, Mr President. standing orders. We will vote again, hon. members, on the same candidates and then start a process of elimination. The President: Mr Crowe and Mr Cannan are The learned Clerk will read out once again the names of seconded. the candidates nominated. The same tellers will act from the Council point of view. Once again as a reminder; we Mr Crowe: I would like to nominate His Honour Arthur do not want more confusion. Learned Clerk. Luft.

The Clerk: Mr President, hon. members, the members Mr Gelling: I would like to second Mr Luft. proposed and seconded who are in this ballot are, in the Council, Mr Waft and in alphabetical order, the members Mrs Crowe: I would like to nominate the hon. member of the Keys are Mr Cannan, Mr Crowe, Mr Rodan and Sir for Glenfaba, Mr Gilbey. Miles Walker. Mr Gilbey: I think, Mr President, it would be The President: Now, hon. members, that have clarified inappropriate to have two members of the Treasury. the position with regard to standing order 5.3 and that I am standing by it, I will also be standing by the remaining The President: Hon. members, that is a matter for the provisions of that particular standing order. Court to decide. (Laughter)

A second ballot took place. Mr Delaney: Sit down, Walter, and feed your horse! (Laughter) The President: Hon. members, the voting is as follows: Mr Waft, 2 votes; Mr Cannan, 14 votes; Mr Crowe, 2 votes; Mrs Hannan: In that likelihood, I will second it. Mr Rodan, 0 votes; Sir Miles Walker, 15 votes. No-one has received the necessary majority. The name of Mr Waft Mr Barton: I propose Mr Waft. will be eliminated from the ballot and the House will proceed to vote and indeed that of Mr Rodan, with no votes, The President: Seconded? will be eliminated from the ballot and we will proceed to vote on the remaining candidates. The ballot papers will Mr Lowey: I will second Mr Waft. be circulated and the learned Clerk will read out to you the names of those candidates remaining in that ballot. I The President: Now, is the Court prepared to vote? am afraid there are no short cuts in this, hon. members. It is the name of Mr Rodan that will be eliminated from this Members: Agreed. ballot and we will proceed to ballot on the remainder of the names before us. The learned Clerk will now read those The President: Thank you, hon. members. Learned names out. Clerk, the papers have been circulated. Will you please read out the names of those who have been nominated for The Clerk: Mr President, the names remaining in the this responsibility? ballot are Mr Waft in the Council, Mr Cannan, Mr Crowe and Sir Miles Walker. The Clerk: Mr President, the members who have been proposed and seconded are, in the Council, Mr Luft and A third ballot took place. Mr Waft and, in the Keys, Mr Cannan, Mr Crowe and Mr Gilbey. The President: The result of the ballot, hon. members: Mr Waft, 0 votes; Mr Cannan, 16 votes; Mr Crowe, 0 votes; The President: In the Council I would ask Mrs Sir Miles Walker, 17 votes and that is the essential majority. Christian to be a teller, please. I declare Sir Miles Walker elected as chairman. Now, I want to make the point that hon. members who The Speaker: Mr Singer, please. have been nominated as chairman and have failed to secure election are eligible for the next post of vice-chairman, A ballot took place. along with any other nominations the Court may wish to put forward. So may I now have nominations for vice- The President: Hon. members, the voting is as follows: chairman, please? Mr Luft, 1 vote; Mr Waft, 5 votes; Mr Cannan, 14 votes; Mr Crowe, 11 votes; Mr Gilbey, 1 vote. As there is a tie at Mr Gilbey: I would like to propose Mr Crowe, the hon. the bottom I would ask you to waive standing orders to member for North Douglas. enable me to delete both. Is that acceptable?

Mr Delaney: I would like to nominate the hon. member Members: Agreed. for Michael, Mr Cannan. The President: Thank you, hon. members. That being Mr Duggan: I beg to second, sir. the case, we are left with three members in the field and

Standing Committee of Public Accounts — Members Elected T116 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 1997 we have eliminated Mr Luft and Mr Gilbey who received The President: Thank you. Ballot papers circulated, one vote each. The papers will be circulated to you. The please. The learned Clerk will read out the names of those learned clerk will once again read out the names eligible nominated when you have the ballot papers in your and we will seek a majority response. Learned Clerk, will possession and you will vote for four, please. you read out the names, please? The Clerk: Mr President, the members who have been The Clerk: Mr President, the names of the members proposed and seconded: in the Council, Mr Luft and Mr who are candidates remaining in the second ballot are Mr Waft and in the Keys, Mr Braidwood, Mr Crowe, Mrs Waft, Mr Cannan and Mr Crowe. Crowe and Mr Duggan.

The President: There is an interesting stipulation in The President: For the Council will Mr Lowey act as 5(4) which hon. members might wish to bear in mind, when teller, please? we come to point (4), and that is if the number of candidates does not exceed the number of vacancies the President Mr Cannan: Sorry. The Keys members again, sir? shall declare the candidates elected. (Laughter) The President: Repeat the nominations, please. A second ballot took place. The Clerk: In the Council, Mr Luft and Mr Waft; in The President: Hon. members, we have the result of the Keys, Mr Braidwood, Mr Crowe, Mrs Crowe and Mr the ballot for the vice-chairman: Mr Waft, 0 votes; Mr Duggan. Cannan, 17 votes; Mr Crowe, 16 votes. Mr Cannan, having received the majority, is duly elected. Mr Crowe: And, Mr President, we have four votes; we Now, hon. members, we go on to the appointment of have to cast four votes, I take it. four other members of this committee. May I have nominations, please? The President: Yes, sir.

Mr Cretney: I propose the hon. member for North Mr North: Mr President, a point of order. Has the Douglas, Mr Crowe, please. President consulted standing order 1.2(2) and is the vote valid? Mr Braidwood: I am glad to second, Mr President. The President: Standing order 1.2(2), sir. Thank you. Mr Brown: I propose the member for South Douglas, The hon. member will appreciate that it is not possible for the President to put forward such a proposal in the middle Mr Duggan. of an election. Mrs Cannell: Mr President, I would like to nominate Members: Hear, hear! the member for East Douglas, Mr Braidwood. A ballot took place. Mr Duggan: I beg to second, sir. The President: Hon. members, the result of the ballot: Mrs Hannan: I would like to second Mr Duggan. Mr Luft, 26 votes; Mr Waft, 25 votes; Mr Braidwood, 18 votes; Mr Crowe, 27 votes; Mrs Crowe, 13 votes; Mr Mr Barton: I nominate Mr Waft. Duggan, 19 votes. I therefore declare Mr Luft, Mr Waft, Mr Crowe and Mr Duggan to be the elected members of Mrs Christian: I beg to second. the committee. Now, we have completed the election of that committee Mr Gilbey: Could I propose His Honour Luft, and I have to take note of the observation of the hon. Mr President? member for Middle, of course, and refer hon. members to the fact that the business of the day shall terminate not Mr Radcliffe: I beg to second. later than 6 p.m. unless otherwise determined by a majority of the members present. I am going to make a suggestion Mr Brown: I propose Mrs Crowe. here to hon. members and it is that we simply continue until we complete the election of the next committee which Mr Gilbey: I would second that. leaves us free for declaratory resolutions starting first thing tomorrow morning. Is that all right? The President: Will you accept that nominations should close? Members: Agreed.

Members: Agreed. The President: Good.

Standing Committee of Public Accounts — Members Elected TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 1997 T117

ECCLESIASTICAL COMMITTEE The President: Thank you. — MEMBERS ELECTED Mr Bell: Could I propose Mr Duggan, Mr President? The President: Now then, we proceed to the election of the Ecclesiastical Committee. The hon. member for Mr Brown: I will second that. Ramsey. Mr Karran: Can I propose Mr Cannan? Mr Bell: Mr President, sorry. Just before we go to the vote could you explain why it is that we need to elect seven Mr Cretney: I will second that. members, nearly a quarter of the membership of Tynwald Court, to such a, with the greatest respect to the Bishop, Mr Radcliffe: Could I propose nominations be closed, irrelevant committee as the Ecclesiastical Committee Mr President? (Laughter) (Laughter) when we can get by with six on the Public Accounts Committee with its very heavy workload? Dr Mann: Too late!

The President: It is in fact, hon. member, a statutory The President: Is that accepted by the Court? committee and we have no choice but to put it forward in this way. I agree with you that there are many committees Members: Agreed. that need looking at with regard to size and composition. Hon. members, the Ecclestiastical Committee standing The President: Thank you. Would you read out the at item 42 on the agenda requires the appointment of seven names of those who have been nominated, learned Clerk, members of Tynwald to serve during the life of the House please? of Keys and you will have noted from your agenda that the former members of the committee were Mr Barton, The Clerk: Mr President, I am happy to say the number Mr Corkill, Mr Cringle, Mr Duggan, Mr Luft, Mr Quine happens to come to seven. (Laughter) In the Council, Mr and Mr Waft. Barton and Mr Luft; in the Keys, Mr Bell, Mr Cannan, Mr Duggan, Mr Karran and Mr Speaker. The Lord Bishop: I propose Mr Bell. (Laughter) The President: These are our seven, learned Clerk? Mr Delaney: I second Mr Bell. Now he will find out why we need seven! The Clerk: Yes.

Mr Cretney: Could I propose, Mr President, that the The President: Hon. members, there have been seven former committee be elected en bloc? members nominated for the seven vacancies on this particular committee and I declare them duly elected. Messrs Quine and Cannan: No. Hon. members, the Court will now adjourn and the adjournment will be until 10.30 tomorrow morning. Thank Dr Mann: I propose Mr Barton. you, hon. members.

Mr Corkill: I would like to second Mr Barton. The Court adjourned at 6.23 p.m.

The President: Mr Bell has been proposed. Mr Barton has been proposed.

Sir Miles Walker: Could I propose Mr Speaker, Mr President, please?

Mr Braidwood: I beg to second, sir.

Mr Waft: I propose Mr Luft.

Mr Barton: I second Mr Luft.

Mr Quine: May I propose Mr ICarran, sir?

The President: If you would just watch your nominations, hon. members. The number, I mean. (Laughter) We are five to date.

Mrs Cannell: Mr President, I beg to second the nomination made by Mr Quine for Mr Karran.

Ecclesiastical Committee — Members Elected