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REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS OF TYNWALD COURT

Douglas, Tuesday, 14th December 1999 at 10.30 a.m.

Present: Congratulations on Actions to The President of Tynwald (the Hon Sir Charles Eradicate Drugs Kerruish OBE LLD (hc) CP). In the Council: The Lord Bishop (the Rt Rev Noöl Debroy Jones), The President: Now, hon. members, before turning to the Attorney-General (Mr W J H Corlett QC), our order paper I should like to take the opportunity to Hon C M Christian, Messrs EA Crowe, D F K Delaney, extend on behalf of the Court congratulations to the Chief J.R Kniveton, E G Lowey, Dr E J Mann, Messrs Minister, his Council and the Minister for Home Affairs J N Radcliffe and G H Waft, with Mr T A Bawden, Clerk and his agency, the police, on their recent positive actions of the Council. designed to eradicate the cancer of drugs which, if unchallenged, could destroy the social fabric of this In the Keys: The Speaker (the Hon N Q Cringle) community. (Rushen); Mr L I Singer and Hon A R Bell (Ramsey); Mr R E Quine OBE (Ayre);MrJ D Q Cannan (Michael); Mrs H Hannan (Peel); Hon V/ A Gilbey (Glenfaba); Hon S C Rodan (Garff); Hon D North (Middle); Bills for Signature Mr P Karran, Hon R K Corkill and Mr G T Cannell (Onchan); Messrs J R Houghton and R W Henderson The Pr.esident: Hon. members, tuming now to our order paper, we have three signature (Douglas North); Hon D C Cretney and Mr A C Duggan Bills for and if you are agreeable we will continue our business while they are (Douglas South); Mr R P Braidwood and Mrs B J Cannell (Douglas East); Hon A F Downie (Douglas West); being signed. Is that agreed? Hon J A Brown (Castletown); Hon D J Gelling (Malew Members: Agreed. and Santon); Sir Miles Walker CBE LLD (hc) and Mrs P M Crowe (Rushen); with Prof T Sù N Bates, Clerk of Tynwald. Papers Laid before the Court

The President: I call upon the learned Clerk to lay The Lord Bishop took the prayers. papers.

Welcome to Visitors The Clerk: I lay before the Court: Merchant Shipping (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act The President: Hon. members, I should like to take 1996 - the opponunity of welcoming the children of St Mary's, Merchant Shipping (Fees) Regulations 1999 along with staff, toTynwald this morning. You have already ISD No 662/99] heard of our procedures. I hope you enjoy the experience of being here this morning and perhaps some day some of Government Departments Act 1987 - your membership may sit here to conduct the affairs of the Transfer of Functions (Medicines Etc.) Order I 999 Island. I wish you well. ISD No 582/99]

Members: Hear, hear, Social Security Act 1982 - Social Security Administration Act 1992 (Application) (Amendment) (No.3) Order 1999 ISD No 557/99] Apologies forAbsence Social Security Contributions and BenefirsAct 1992 (Application) (Amendment) (No.3) Order 1999 The President: Hon. members, we have apologies for ISD No 558/99] absence this morning from the hon. member for Douglas Social Security Legislation (Application) (No. l5) lty'est, Mr Shimmin, who is attending a family funeral. Order 1999 ISD No 559/99]

'Welcome to Visitors Apologies forAbsence Congratulations on Actions to Eradicate Drugs Bills for Signature Papers Laid before the Court T220 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th DECEMBER 1999

Soci al Security Legi slation (Application) (No. 1 6) Reports - Order 1999 ISD No 560/99] be approved' Report of the Isle of Man Delegation to the Islands Commission of the Conference of Peripheral Pension Schemes Act 1995 - Maritime Regions of Europe 1999 Pension Schemes Legislation (Application) (No.5) Order 1999 ISD No 561/99] European Communities - European Communities instruments circulated Department of Health and Social Security - during October 1999 IGC No 50/99] TV Licence (Refunds) Scheme 1990 (Amendment) Scheme 1999 IGC No 42/99] Code of Conduct (Business Taxation) Report (Isle Man) Act 1948 - National Health Service of Question by Mr Cannan National Health Service (Isle of Man) (General - Services) Medical and Pharmaceutical The President: We now turn, hon. members, to the (Amendment) Regulations 1999 [SD No 619/99] question paper and I call upon the hon. member for Michael, Mr Cannan, to ask the question standing in his Gaming (AmendmenÐ Act 1984 - name. Controlled Machines (Prescribed Amounts) Regulations 1999 ISD No 621/99] Mr Cannan: Mr President, I ask the Chief Minister:

Fire Precautions Act 1975 At the meeting on l}th - IIth December 1999 of the Fire Precautions (Fixed Firefighting Systems) European Summit (Heads of Government) at Helsinki - Regulations 1999 ISD No 666/99] (1) what was the response to the Code of Conduct EstateAgents Act 1975 - (BusinessTizxation) Report by the Primnrolo Group; Estate Agents (Amendment) Rules 1999 and ISD No 670/99] (2) were any other møtters díscussed or decisions taken Sea-Fisheries Act 1971 - that will either now or in the future, have a direct Sea-Fisheries (Scallop Season) (Amendment) Bye- or indirect ffict onthe economy of the Isle of Man? Laws 1999 ISD No 64]/991 Sea-Fisheries (Scallop Fishing) (Amendment) Bye- The President: The Chief Minister to reply. Laws 1999 ISD No669/99] Mr Gelling: Mr President, the second part of the Animal Health Act 1996 - question is excessively broad, I would suggest, and the Cattle Passports (Amendment) Order 1999 range of issues discussed at the European Council Meeting ISD No 671/99] in Helsinki held on the 10th and llth of December was Marking and Cattle Records (Amendment) Order very wide and I would again say general, so that some of 1999 ISD No 672/99] what flows from that meeting will inevitably have indirect implications for the economy of the Isle of Man. For Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry - instance, at Helsinki they looked ahead to the enlargement Farm and Horticultural Improvement Scheme 1999 of the Union, to the institutional reforms necessary to IGC No 51/99] accommodate that enlargement and to the creation of 'a competitive job-generating sustainable economy'. What Reports - the indirect economic implications for the Island flowing First report of the Tynwald Standing Orders from all of that will be is impossible to say at this stage, Committee for the parliamentary year 199912000 but no doubt there will be some implications. Now, as regards the first part of the question, it is our National Health Service (Isle of Man) Act 1948 - understanding that there was little, if any, discussion on National Health Service (Isle of Man) (Appointment the code of conduct group report which remains on ice of Consultants) Regulations 1999 ISD No 683/99] because of the lack of agreement on a separate but related tax measure, sir. Criminal Justice Act 1999 - Anti-Money Laundering (Amendment) Code 1999 The President: A supplementary, hon. member? ISD No 702/99] Mr Cannan: I thank the Chief Minister for his reply, Appointed Day Orders - but I ask him, has he received a copy of the final report of Limited Liability Companies and Financial the Code of Conduct (Business Taxation) Report by the Supervision (AmendmenÐ Act 1999 (Appointed Primarolo Group, and if so, will he provide members with Day) Order 1999 ISD No 585/99] a copy? Or if he has not had a copy of the final report, why

Code of Conduct (Business Taxation) Report - Question by Mr Cannan TYNWALD COURT, TUESDA 14th DECEMBER I999 T221 is the United Kingdom Government withholding a copy Mr Gelling: Mr President, when a minister will from the Manx Govemment when the implications in the obviously have a long-held or publicly stated difference report would have action within the finance business of of opinion, that is noted and in the Council of Ministers the Isle of Man? we are aware of that minister's position and obviously are aware that they may not support the resolution that is before Mr Gelling: Yes, Mr President, ECOFIN will be the Court or the Keys, sir. meeting again in February and evidently they will at that Chief Minister inform the Court, time bgconsidering whether to publish the code of conduct Mr Lowey: Would the President, with your group report and how it should be implemented, but as yet and I will give an illustration, Mr permission, the Shops Act, that was a govemment measure, we have not a copy officially, sir. a government minister voted against, was he made aware minister was voting against, before he voted Mr Cannan: In respect of the withholding tax, which that that against and is there any case where the Chief Minister feels atter for debate and discussion at the Heads have the right to vote without impinging against ng in Helsinki, in the event of the United ministers govemment and perhaps he could give an illustration ally agreeing to the introduction of a the in his last two years where that has happened? x what contingency plans do you have when formally request that the Isle of Man the United Kingdom Mr Gelling: Mr President,there have been of course conform to the European Union request for the introduction occasions when ministers have voted against what would their dependencies? of a withholding tax in have been termed government policy because of the long- held and public view that they have previously stated. The President: I regard this question as being so The hon. member of Council, MrLowey, has illustrated hypothetical that it is incapable of being answered by the the Shops Act. Well, of course this emanates from the hon. member. Consumer Affairs or the department of trading standards and therefore the Department of Trade is the vehicle or the conduit through which that legislation will travel to the Government - Collective Responsibility and Council of Ministers and subsequently get on to the House Public Credibility by Mr Lowey of Keys agenda, sir. So therefore I think they are referring - Question to the Minister for Trade, the Department of Trade. He has had a long-held view on flexibility and the extension of question hon. The President: We move on to 2, the hours on a Sunday so it was no surprise, I suppose, that member of the Council, Mr Lowey. the trade and industry minister did in fact vote against it.

Mr Lowey: Thank you, Mr President. I beg leave to Mr Lowey: Would the Chief Minister answer the point ask the Chief Minister: I raised: was he informed before the vote that he would be voting against and what actions did the Chief Minister take What steps are you taking - to persuade him?

( 1) to maintain collective responsibility of; and Mr Gelling: Yes, in the collective responsibility of government it was noted that the Minister for Trade would (2) to retain public credibility in not be supporting the motion, sir.

your govemment? Revised Sulby Local Plan - The President: The Chief Minister to reply. Question by the Speaker

Mr Gelling: Mr President, there are in my view no The President: Question 3, the hon. Mr Speaker. specific additional steps necessary either to maintain collective responsibility or to retain public credibility in The Speaker: Yes, Mr President, I beg leave to ask the the Isle of Man Government. Collective responsibility is Chief Minister: generally working as it should and I believe the government has the confidence of the public, sir. As it is the policy of your government to stimulate economic development in the north of the Island, will you The President: A supplementary, sir? be instructing the Department of Local Government and the Environment to table a revised Sulby Local Plan next Mr Lowey: Would the Chief Minister not agree that year? where ministers disagree with government policy, apart from the guidelines laid down by the Chief Minister, when The President: The Chief Minister to reply. they depart from that policy do they inform the Chief Minister before they vote against government policy in Mr Gelling: Yes, MrPresident, itis the normal practice the legislative branches, and if not, why not? for local plans to be reviewed on a five-year cycle. Now,

Government - Collective Responsibility and Public Credibility - Question by Mr Lowey Revised Sulby Local Plan - Question by the Speaker T222 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAÍ l4th DECEMBER 1999

the S recentlY in fact bY bringing forward proposals in respect of other forms of Tynw d will not ordinarilY discrimination in employment. At the same time the come until the Yeat 2004' department is also working on a number of other proposals Now, in answer to Mr Speaker's question, we have no plans such as statutory minimum wage. at this time to invite the Department of Local Government Turning to the second part of the question, the hon. and the Environment to consider bringing forward an member will already be aware from my answer to him in amending order in advance of that specific timetable, sir. the Keys on 30th November that the department will be taking advice on the most appropriate way of progressing The President: Do you wish to ask a supplementary, the proposal that a review be undertaken of the work of sir? the Employment Tribunal. It would be inappropriate for me to comment further conceming the review until such The Speaker: No, Mr President. time as I have had the benefit of that advice.

The President: A supplementary, sir?

Employment Act l99l - Mr Henderson: Thank you, Mr President. I thank the Employment Thibunal - Review - hon. minister for his responses and for repeating chunks Question by Mr Henderson ofhis new policy document, but can he give his assurances to my question and addressing my concerns in that some The President: Question 4, the hon. member for more specific timescale can be indicated by his department Douglas North, Mr Henderson. when they intend to progress this matter, as there are a lot of working people in this Island depending on this issue, Mr Henderson: Thank you, Mr President. I beg leave sir? to ask the Minister for Trade and Industry: Mr North: Mr President, there is no intention of holding W|II your department instruct a review by an it up at all, but we do have to wait for the advice' independent body into the effectiveness of - Mr Singer: Could I ask the hon. minister if he is aware (1) the EmploymentAct l99l; and of the Fair Employment Act which is currently being

(2 ) Employment Tribunals ?

The President: The Minister forTrade and Industry to reply. recognition and representation, as perhaps one might think Mr North: Mr President, responsibility for matters the Isle of Man will be virtually the last country in Western relating to employment legislation rests with the Europe still subscribing to what might be considered as Department of Trade and Industry and I see no case for antiquated and rather unfair employment legislation? either ducking or abrogating this responsibility by passing it on to any so-called independent body. Mr North: Mr President, I am not aware of the details The department is committed to the development of a of that, but we do monitor certainly the majority of the sound framework of employment legislation which is legislation coming through, and as the hon. member may appropriate to local circumstances and this includes a well be aware, it is in the policy document. We are actually process of ongoing and continual review of existing looking at recognition at this time. provisions. I believe that we have made significant progress in recent times. To illustrate this I would remind members that the 199ó Employment (Amendment) Act introduced Employment Tfibunal the 1991 Employment Act including - several changes to Henderson new rights for part-time workers. Question by Mr At the present time the Employment (Sex Discrimination) Bill is of course going through the The President: Question 5, the hon. member for branches. This is in itself a major piece of employment Douglas North, Mr Henderson. legislation which also updates the section of the Employment Act concerned with unfair dismissal on Mr Henderson: Thank you, Mr President. I beg leave and grounds of sex discrimination. Further amendments to the to ask the Minister for Trade Industry: EmploymentAct were also introduced recently during the passage of the Shops Bill. Can you confirm that in respect of the Isle of Man For the future and as explained in the department's Employment Tribunal' recently published operating plan for this year, we are currently undertaking work in relation to a review of ( I ) legal aid is not available to parties to proceedings maternity rights and benefits and are also committed to beþre the tribunal:

Employment Act 1991 - Employment Tribunal - Review - Question by Mr Henderson Employment Tribunal - Question by Mr Henderson TYNWALD COUR TUESDAY, 14Th DECEMBER 1 999 T223

(2) atthough the tribunal may review its decisions, there an applicant has been unfairly dismissed is an order for is no siatutory right of appealfrom a determination compensation which, in accordance with the provisions of the tibunal; of section 59 of the Employment Act I 991 , must consist of a basic award and a compensatory award. The basic (3) the tribunal has no power to reinstate an employee; award is effectively calculated on the basis of one week's pay for each year of continuous employment, the amount t r may limited a maximum f250 ( 4 ) t he max imum c o mp e n s at io n which the ib unal of the week's pay being to of normally award is f 13,000; under the provision of the Employment (Maximum Amount of a Week's Pay) Order 1992. (5) there has beenno performance review of the tributal The compensatory award which, in accordance with since I99l; section 62(1) of the Employment Act, is to be such an amount as the tribunal considers just and equitable in all (6) no transcripts are kept of the proceedings of the the circumstances, having regard to the loss sustained in tribunals; consequence of the dismissal in so far as that loss is attributable to action taken by the employer, is limited to a (7) no formal statistics are kept of the determinations maximum of f 13,000 by virtue of the Employment of the tibunal; and (Maximum Amount of Compen satory Award) Order 1992. The amount of these limits is currently under review. (8) the In reply to part (5) of the question, I can confirm that are there has not been a performance review of the tribunal. It are is not clear what the hon. member wishes to imply by this Posts? phrase, but I feel I should reiterate the legal advice which was received earlier this year and which was communicated The President: The Minister for Trade and Industry to to him at that time, that any political monitoring or reply. evaluation of the performance of a judicial body such as the Employment Tribunal would be inappropriate. a falling Mr North: Mr President, legal aid is not matter Turning to part (6) of the question, whilst I can confirm I am advised, within my department's area of responsibility. that no transcripts of the proceedings of the tribunal are parties however, thai legal aid is not ordinarily available to kept, I am advised that notes are taken throughout the as is also to proceedings be proceedings by the chairman and also by the clerk to the position however, the in the tribunal. also ligibilitY, thaf I unders In answer to part (7) of the question, whilst no formal assistance may be available to individuals in limited statistics have been kept of the determinations of the with tribunal matters under the provision of connection tribunal, documents recording tribunal findings are, in the 'green form' scheme which effectively allows for accordance with the provisions of the Employment approximately two hours work to be undertaken by an Tribunal rules, entered into a register which is open to the advocate. inspection of any person, without charge, at all reasonable Turning to the second part ofthe question and as advised hours. My department has recognised that statistics relating to the hon. member earlier this year in another place, a the tribunal would be of value and in statutory right of appeal from a determination of the to the work of to requests from the Trades Council is currently tribunal exists under section 79 of the Employment Act response work to compile the necessary information. 1991, whi rson who is aggrieved bY undertaking answer to the final part of the question, I can confirm any decisi r or award of the tribunal In the provisions of part I of schedule 4 to the under this PaymentsAct 1990, maY that under it is indeed a matter for the Council within such time as may be prescribed by rules of court, EmploymentAct l99l the chairman and deputy chairman appeal on a question of law to the high court. of Ministers to appoint - rWhilst say that there are no In answer to the third part of the question, I can confirm of the tribunal. it is true to posts, a that reinstatement of an employee is not within the powers tions for these it is available to the Employment Tribunal. Where an employee islation that the Council of be alleges unfair dismissal the EmploymentAct requires that ho appear to the Council to the industrial relations officer shall in particular seek to and in this regard a legal promote the reinstatement or re-engagement of the claimant qualif,rcation has been considered essential' ón terms appearing to the industrial relations officer to be equitable. The President: A supplementary, hon. member? Where the claimant does not wish to be reinstated or re-engaged or where reinstatement or re-engagement is not Mr Henderson: Yes, please, Mr President. I thank the practicable and the parties desire the industrial relations hon. minister for that well comprehensive reply and I must officer to do so, he must seek to promote agreement thank him for broadly agreeing with my question and between them as to a sum by way of compensation to be comments in the first place, but the supplementaries that paid. emanate from the question are these. Could the hon. Turning to the fourth part of the question, the remedy minister confirm at point (2) of my question, the right of which the Employment Tribunal can grant if it finds that appeal, it may be that an employee can make an application,

Employment Tribunal - Question by Mr Henderson T224 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAÍ I4th DECEMBER 1999

Mr Henderson: Thank you, Mr President. I thank the hon. minister for herreply and confirming that some trained nursing staff can actually work permanent days or night duty and for sending out that signal to the staff within the minister advise that Employment Tribunals are set up for health service, sir, and also the fact I was going to allude the good of all working people of this Island, are the only that I myself have - couise of main redress an aggrieved employee has, as I say, other than battle, and is he The President: A supplementary, please, sir. happy with the e is not, could he - worked permanent night duty. Could adviie this hon. nt ProPoses to do Mr Henderson: about it? she confirm that in fact permanent night staffcan meet the obligations of professional requirements and those of the Mr North: Mr President, I can confirm yes and yes to organisation and it is entirely possible for more staff at the answer the first two questions and would say that the present to work permanent nights or day staff? I other bunals Mrs Christian: Mr President, I have indicated that it is in the possible for people to work permanent nights: as the hon. advice member indicates, he has been one of them. However, it is on the review that will be undertaken. also a requirement that within our service requirements they maintain their skills by doing some day duties. There will be coming into effect next year a professional for a specific amount of training in relation to Permanent DaY or requirement Nursing Staff - night staffin order to keep their professional registration. Permanent Night Duty - I would concur with that. The two are not directly related Question by Mr Henderson and I do have to say that it is within the ambit of those responsible for staffrng on the different wards to determine The President: Question 6, the hon. member for how best they seek to staff their wards. Douglas North, Mr Henderson. With regard to whether or not we could have more people on permanent night and day duty, these issues were Mr Henderson: Thank you, Mr President. I beg leave iaisèd about a year ago, I think, and I believe that the staff to ask the Minister for Health and Social Security: management did increase their degree of flexibility in these issues to the extent that they circulated documentation to Can you confirm that health care assistants anà the staffs in their areas, seeking to find out what their trainednursing støffmay be employedby your department prefened options were and within the flexibility of the on either permanent day or permanent night duty? iervice trying to provide a service which met as far as possible those options. The President: The Minister for Health and Social I think our position on staffing is such at the moment Security to reply. that, unlike in other areas where they have been pressured to moving to permanent days or permanent nights because Mrs Christian: Mr President, yes, I would confirm that of staffshortages, we do not consider ourselves to be under quite the department may employ nursing staff on permanent such pressure here at this time. However, I am happy on the bank for nursing to day or permanent night duty. The present position within to review the position of those have it and I believe we do the hospital service is that staff are primarily engaged on establish, if we do not already clarify just what bank nurses would wish to do contracts requiring internal rotation of day and night duty. have it, to get them back into full-time nursing, if that There are, however, some staff whose contracts are for in order to were possible and if it is possible within the requirements night or day duty only, the night staff being required to of the service to bring more bank nurses back into carry out two or three weeks per annum day duties to permanent employment, certainly I think we would seek maintain their skills. to be doing that. However, it is essential the hospital service retains a practices and the flexible approach in relation to working Mr Braidwood: Mr President, the minister knows my people who are responsible final decisions rest with the opinion on intemal rotation, the abolition of which would for staffrng the different areas in the hospital in relation to eñhance the recruitment of nurses by allowing a day or the requirements of the services in their areas. night duty preference. Therefore would the minister agree We are in fact in the process of recruiting a director of with me that if National Health Service trusts in the UK nursing, midwifery and professional development and it can operate ' care' recruitment will be a requirement of that post to address issues of campaigns to cruits with Young recruitment and retention and that will include a review of families who open to them and the rostering affangements. the mature person who has left with completely flexible working arrangements, then there is obviously no problem The President: A supplementarY, sir? with keeping up-to-date, meeting professional

Nursing Staff - Permanent Day or Permanent Night Duty - Question by Mr Henderson TYNWALD COURT, TUESD ER 1999 T225 requirements, meeting the needs of patients and we should f be doing the same here, especially given the ongoing nurse f shortage? r S Mrs Christian: Mr President, I believe that in the not automatically bring people back or retain people in positions, it is the conditions also of the service in which ihey are working? Would the minister agree with me on that?

Mrs Christian: Mr President, the hon. member has implied that in relation to our vacancies it is not only salaries but conditions of employment which are important. I would agree with the hon. member in that respect, but I think if he would look at the way in which recruitment has been carried out in the last year it is clear that our combination of salaries and conditions has not been detrimental because we have filled a great many vacancies determined in other places, came about. in the past year with the te Certainly if there are measures by which we find that currently offer. We have at there are permanent residents in the Isle of Man who want out of something like 540. to come back into nursing full-time and it can be balanced departments in govemment whose ratio of vacancies is no with the requirements of the service, we will endeavour to different from that. do that. However, I think it has to be pointed out that even within the staffing body itself we have to remember that Mrs Crowe: Hear, hear. there are some people who might very well like to have permanent nights, but we need people to do days as well The President: The hon. Mr Henderson. This is the ánd it is getting that balance which the managers seek to final supplementary on this question. achieve. Mr Henderson: Thank you, Mr President. I thank the Mrs Cannell: Mr President, given the fact that the Isle hon. minister for her answers and commitments to re- ges but a short time examining the flexibility of shifts and I really appreciate that, but could she confirm for me that a happy, well- î#åïäi"î'Jll; motivated workforce with an acceptable, flexible working ruit brings forward shift arrangement will actually enhance patient care to a staff-friendly shifts and would she further not agree that higher degree? such a process is an effective way of recruiting staff, but more importantly, a very effective way of retaining staff Mrs Christian: Mr President, certainly happy, well- which we will need in the future for our new hospital? motivated people provide better service, we all would acknowledge that, but I would ask the hon. member if he Mrs Christian: Mr President, I think we need to be would not also give some acknowledgement to the degree careful not to confuse recent severe staff shortages, as of flexibility that has been introduced in the last year. I defin erall staffing could run through a list of wards where there are pefmanent probl have a staff night staff out of choice. There are pools of nurses who diffic illness. Now, have volunteered to do certain rotations. 'Volunteered'is thatc areahundred the important word there. per cent recruited. I dõ believe that we have introduced a degree of I do take the point the hon. member is making in respect flexibility. I would reiterate again that I am happy to look ofretention and I have indicated that when our new officer at the list of bank nurses to make sure that we know what is interviewed, part of the brief of this new director of their preferences are and, if we can, meet them in order to nursing, midwifery and professional development will be bring them back into the service on a full-time basis and to look at retention issues. It is not so simple as to say that we will be happy to invite this new postholder to carry out because there are people out there who want to come back a review, but predominantly and primarily we must have in mind a service which will best meet the needs of the patient.

Meningitis Hospital Admission bank. Suspected - Procedure - Question by Mrs Cannell Mr Delaney: Mr President, would the minister confirm that in the vacancies she has and in the conditions that The President: Question 7, the hon. member for they are trying to re-attract the people back into nursing it Douglas East, Mrs Cannell.

Suspected Meningitis - Hospital Admission Procedure - Question by Mrs Cannell T226 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDA 14th DECEMBER 1999

Mrs Canneli: Thank you, Mr President. I beg leave to put into a ward with other children and it was not for two ask the Minister for Health and Social Security: and a quarter hours that a blood test was taken in order to establish whether the child had meningitis or not and that past (1) What is the procedure for admitting a patient with that result did not appear until a quarter two in the suspected meningitis to hospital; and afternoon and will she please accept that the child was mine?

(2) how many such admissions have there been since Mrs Christian: Mr President, if the hon. member says December 1998? the child was hers I will believeher (lnughrer,) and I will accept what she said about the procedures. I will investigate The President: The Minister for Health and Social the circumstances of the case. Security to reply. Mrs Cannell: Thank You' Mrs Christian: Mr President, the normal procedure for

Petition for Redress of Grievance of Jean Noreen Thompson - Select Committee Report - Recommendations - and referral to hospital for diagnosis confirmation purposes' Question by Mr Karran The policy also requires a sta completed and forwarded to The President: Question 8, the hon. member for In terms of the second part Onchan, Mr Karran, that since December 1998 there have been three cases of suspected meningitis admitted into Noble's Hospital. Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I beg to ask the Minister for Local Government and the Environment: The President: A supplementary, hon. member? When will your department be in a position to Mrs Cannell: Thank you, Mr President. Would the hon' implement the recommendations in the Report of the Select minister not agree with me that when someone is admitted Committee on the Petition for Redress of Jean Noreen to Noble's Hospital through their general practitioner with Thompson? suspected meningitis that patient should be put firstly into isolation? Would she not further agree with me that any The President: The Minister for Local Government and confirmation for diagnosis purposes should be conducted the Environment to reply. with the utmost speed in view of the suspicion of the condition, and would she not further agree with me that Mr Gilbey: Mr President, this is by no means a this is not being undertaken at Noble's Hospital at present straightforward issue. Consequently, unfortunately it is and would she further confirm that she will look into it taking the department longer than anticipated to complete with the utmost speed, please, to ensure that procedures its remit to report back to this hon. Court on the are updated and streamlined to this effect? recommendations contained in the Report of the Select Committee on the Petition for Redress of Grievance of Mrs Christian: Mr President, the policy does set out Jean Noreen Thompson and related matters.Itis now hoped clearly what should happen when a patient is referred to to report back to this hon. Court early in the New Year. the hospital by their doctor. If the hon. member can indicate to me that policies are not being followed at Noble's The President: A supplementary, sir? Hospital, I should be obliged, as she has indicated that she feels this is a matter of some very considerable concern' It Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, does the minister not does concem me that the matter has waited for a question appreciate the urgency as far as this issue with the to be tabled in this Court. If it is a matter of considerable increasing amount of leasehold properties being proposed urgency, as she believes it to be, I would have preferred in the future, and would he also not agree that it is not just that she had approached us when she became aware of affecting the rundown areas of Douglas but it is also situations arising which concerned her. However, if the affecting areas such as in my own constituency where the hon. member can provide me with some evidence which I issue of commonhold needs to be addressed as a matter of can follow up,I will very happily do that. urgency and can he give us some sort of time date when these recommendations are going to be put into force? The President: A supplementary, hon. member? Mr Gilbey: Mr President, certainly I appreciate the Mrs Cannell: Thank you, Mr President. I thank the hon' impofance of doing this as soon as possible but I appreciate minister for her positive stance in relation to this. Will she even more the importance of getting it right, and regarding consider that on 8th November of this year a child was the question of commonhold in particular, this is an admitted into the children's ward at Noble's Hospital at 9.30 extremely complicated matter and we would be most in the moming with suspected meningitis and that child was unwise to launch out on our own into this until we have

Petition for Redress of Grievance of Jean Noreen Thompson - Select Committee Report - Recommendations - Question by Mr Karran TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, I4th DECEMBER I999 T227 seen just how it is brought into effect and works in the (i) what were the average waste arisings per adjacent isles. tonne;

Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, would the minister not agree (ii) what percentage was recycled; that if we were not talking about landowners' rights and we were talking about tenants' rights, there would not be (iii) what was the disposal route for recycling ; and the same reserve as far as action is concerned, and will he give us s growing (iv) what was the cost of recycled waste by this problemi ethatthe route, as compared with disposal by landrtil; þetitioner trying to and get some think his department needs to come up with dates. (2) does the department intend to dispose of this waste by incineration in the future? Mr Gilbey: First of all I think it is a rather unworthy suggestion that the department or the government would The President: The Minister for Local Govemment and be more interested if it affected landlords than tenants. That the Environment to reply. just is not the case. quote: 'It is Regarding an actual time, I did say, and I Mr Gilbey: Mr President, I think it may be helpful if I now hoped to repoft back to this hon. Court early in the were to answer part (l ) of the hon. member's question by New Year.' dealing with each of the categories in turn. I shall firstly, therefore, deal with paper. Mr Henderson: Mr President, I thank the hon. minister Only high-quality office paper has been recycled since for some of his replies but notwithstanding that, would he the end of 199'7 because of the very depressed market for confirm that the rights of the petitioner need to be addressed paper.A local company, Manx Paper Stock, transports that here in something more substantial than just saying some paper to a mill in England and a subsidy is payable by the time in the New Year? That is exactly the kind of answer Government respect this. we had nearly 12 months ago. Could the hon. minister Department of Local in of give us something substantial, that it will definitely be here The department encourages householders to deposit and this was previously exponed in the New Year without any manner of a doubt, and could paper in recycling bins he also confirm that the stress and duress this is causing from the Island. In 1999 the figure for paper arisings the petitioner is unbelievable? through the recycling bins is 855 tonnes to date. However, again because of the depressed paper market, the costs of Mr Gilbey: Having seen what happens to other people's export far outweigh any environmental benefits and promises, Mr President, I am very careful not to make because of its low value, no-one will accept paper from promises and that is why I keep to what I have said before, us. For the present, therefore, this paper is being taken to that it is hoped to report back to this hon. Court early in landfill but the department is keeping this under review. the New Year. There will also be other quantities of paper which arrive at I should point out that, as I think the hon. questioners Iandfill sites from other sources mixed with other kinds of are aware, that the report of the select committee of refuse, but this is of course extremely difficult to quantify. Tynwald was received in April 1998. Now, that is some I regret to say tha! a considerable amount of research time ago, but the hon. member for Onchan, Mr Karran, would require to be carried out in order to provide detailed talked about l4 years and certainly the department and the answers to the hon. member's questions and it certainly years. government cannot be blamed for any delay of 14 'was not possible to undertake this research in the time But it was well known at the time when this was debated available. However, what I can say is that 101,474 tonnes that it was highly desirable, before this Island launched of paper were recycled in 1997 , 480 tonnes in 1 998. Unless into commonhold and new experiments in forms of there is a significant improvement in the paper market, property ownership, that we should see how it had been which regretfully appears very unlikely, it is proposed that approached in the adjacent isles and not only how it had paper will be taken to the all-Island integrated incinerator been approached but how it had worked there. (energy from waste) facility once that is commissioned, hopefully towards the end of the year 2002, where it can be disposed of with environmental benefits in that it does Waste Arisings - Recycling - have a calorific value which will help with the generation Question by Mrs Hannan of electricity for the Island's grid. I now turn to glass and here I can inform hon. members glass The President: Question 9, the hon. member for Peel. that all identifiable which is deposited into the recycling bins is shipped offthe Island and does not go to Mrs Hannan: Eaghtyrane, I beg leave to ask the landfill. During 1997 378.46 tonnes of glass were shipped Minister for Local Government and the Environment: off the Island. During 1998 1,298.06 tonnes were shipped off the Island, this figure including a backlog from the ( I ) With respect to (a) paper (b) glass and (c) aluminium previous calendar year. During the current year to date 884 cans in each of the years 1997, 1998 and 1999 to tonnes have been shipped offthe Island. It is not proposed date that glass will be taken to the incinerator when that becomes

Waste Arisings - Recycling - Question by Mrs Hannan T228 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, I4th DECEMBER I999 operational, as this would be inappropriate and for this introduce more and more education because we have got reason the department will continue its efforts to encourage to remember that waste disposal is really quite a modern householders to deposit used bottles in the bottle banks at environmental science. Up till about 20 years ago hardly the various sites around the Island' anyone was interested in it anywhere in the western world. As far as aluminium is concerned, I can confirm that They just tipped their rubbish into pits and did not worry aluminium deposited is recycled and the local operator, about it. Things have now changed, but public opinion has David Greavès, also makes direct collections from not yet changed and public opinion gradually needs to be commercial premises. I am advised that the amount of educated, as it has been in other countries. aluminium recycled remains fairly constant at l8 tonnes for each of the last three calendar years. Mrs Hannan: Could I ask the Minister for Local The price of alumi Government and the Environment? He has stated that there to require a subsidy is no cost per tonne for landfill of waste. Has he got a export. It is not propo projected cost for the incineration of this paper that he the incinerator once suggests has got a good calorific value for burning? department intends to continue with its efforts to encourage householders to co-operate by placing this material in the Mr Gilbey: No, I am afraid I have not got that. I did recycling bins. explain regarding landfill that this is a cubic measurement, Because disposal by landfill is not paid for by the tonne not by the tonne. at present but by the size of the vehicle which brings the refuse to the site, it is not possible to give a cost per tonne Mr Karran: Vainstyr Loayreyder,I would like to ask a for landhlling. However, the department intends to improve supplementary. Would the minister not agree that how can the way in which waste is managed and this would involve thiì hon. Court have any trust as far as their policies on introducing controls on the handling, transportation and recycling and waste when - disposal of waste. The department is also looking to improve the The President: What is your question, sir? management and operation of the civil amenity sites and to increase recycling, separation and recovery for the reuse Mr Karran:'Would the minister not agree when we of certain wastes as well as the composting of green wastes' have a situation where officers in his department are involved with the prices and have an interest in the disposal The President: A supplementary, hon. member? recycle business as well, and would the minister also come clean and tell this hon. Court that the bottom line is there Mrs Hannan: Could I thank the minister for his is no will as far as recycling is concerned because you will comprehensive reply to my question and could I ask him need all the rubbish and waste you can get in order to try what action he is going to take to encourage more recycling and keep this incinerator going? and what action his department is taking to try to find an outlet for waste paper that people consciously take to the The President: Reply, minister, and disregard the recycling centres? suggestion of coming clean.

Mr Gilbey: Regarding the waste paper, Mr President, Mr Gilbey: I beg your pardon. You said something, as I have already explained, regretfully, due to the collapse Mr President. in the price of paper worldwide, it just is not economic to recycle it. This is an unfortunate thing but we have to be The President: The hon. member for Onchan used the realistic. However, as I have explained, we are continuing expression 'coming clean' implying, I imagine, that you with its separation and separate collection where possible have not been behaving in an honourable manner. This I so that (l) ifthe price does recover it can be exported and can not accept and I have asked you to disregard that (2) when we have the incinerator it can be used in the suggestion. incinerator to produce energy to produce electricity which is a form of reusing of paper in a sensible way rather than Mr Gilbey: Well, thank you very much, Mr President, just ground. dumping it in the but also there \ryas an unfortunate innuendo against officers Regarding the general question of encouraging of the department which I find very reprehensible that it as mentioned in this hon. Court, I am recycling, I have should be made here. If any hon. member has any criticism delighted with the example that has been set by the very of offrcers of the department the proper thing is for them fine civic amenity site at St John's which is leading to reuse to advise myself, the chief executive or the Civil Service and recycling of a considerable number of items which Commission, but I can say that as far as I am aware, no ried and certainly we hope that the such complaint has been made and I hope that the hon. ic amenity site will soon be attained complaint with us in the south, east and north of the member will lodge an official and he does not, will withdraw his Island which should all be up to the same high standard as immediately today if that in the west. statement about members of the department. Again, regarding encouragement of people in modern methods of waste disposal et cetera, we plan to actually Mr Karran: Don't try and worm out of it.

Waste Arisings - Recycling - Question by Mrs Hannan TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAI 14th DECEMBER I999 'T229

Mr Gilbey: I am not worming out of anything. I am Mr Duggan: Thank you, Mr President. Could I ask the just saying that you should put your cards on the table and minister? To utilise the waste heat you have got to have iet us havè the details or withdraw your statement about the put-through and it is quite obvious from the facts this civil servants who are not here to defend themselves. moming that the minister has given that we are not going Regarding his other statement, it is equally off the mark. to have enough rubbish suitable for incineration to keep There is absolutely no truth in that we do not want to have the plant going to utilise the waste energy. reuse and recycling. The policy document makes it perfectly clear that the total policy is one ofreuse, recycling Mr Gilbey: That is totally untrue, Mr President. There going ãnd then incineration, and the incinerator is planned to work will be ample to keep the incinerator as it is meant generate on the basis that a considerable amount of materials will to be kept going and to electricity from it and in good your head. be reused and recycled, and indeed there are many things addition to recycle. It is no shaking We about this and we know what be that I have made clear in answering this question that know the figures will the incinerator and we also know how the cannot be put through an incinerator, such as aluminium available for waste produced by all of us is constantly growing and glass et cetera. throughout the westem world. Mr Delaney: Mr President, would the minister agree Mr Duggan: Could we have those figures? with me that, given the past history of the unstable price market for waste paper at its point of manufacture in Mrs Cannell: Mr President, in relation to glass, would Britain, it would be extremely foolish not to have a policy the hon. minister not agree with me that when the recycling for dealing with waste paper, and will he not agree with schemes were set up back in 1989-90 the department used me that the history of blown paper around The Raggatt, the services of the coal boats in which to transport the glass the Ayres and other sites in the Isle of Man makes it off the Island? Would he agree with me that the coal boats and prudent to make a provision for extremely necessary arrived laden and would return empty and that it was waste paper when we cannot ship it at a getting rid of the beneficial, both financially and environmentally, for the value the Island. cost off glass to be returned on the empty coal boats and that that was at no charge to the department? Would he further agree Mrs Hannan: Great coming from him: he was in charge with me that it was only when the boats reached the of it blowing around The Raggatt. mainland -

Mr Gilbey: I totally agree with the minister who was A Member: Tut-tut. Minister for Local Government and did so much to try and bring in an incinerator to begin with. Of course he is Mr Cretney: Adjacent island, love. absolutely right: the blowing of paper is appalling and the methods we now have to collect it and try and bury it by Mrs Cannell: - that there was a small transportation itself so it does no blow about and then to move it to an charge in 1989? Would he further agree that as glass is not incinerator later when we have an incinerator, if the price biodegradable it is wholly inappropriate to be putting glass has not recovered, are absolutely right and I thank him for in landfill, whether it is 30 or 40 tonnes more or less, and his remarks. that certainly it is not appropriate to be putting it into an incinerator to burn? ' Mr Singer: Mr President, if I could turn now to the glass, could the minister inform this hon. Court how much Mr Gilbey: I just cannot understand the hon. member's we receive per tonne of glass from the manufacturers that question. I can only imagine she was not listening to what we deliver to, that is if we receive anything at all? Could I read out to begin with when I said very clearly, Mr he also tell us how much it costs per tonne to move the President, 'I now turn to glass and here I can inform hon. glass off the Island and does his department then have the members' - including the hon. member who has asked this principle that recycling should continue to take place even supplementary - 'that all identifiable glass which is if it is a great cost to the taxpayer, as perhaps there would deposited into recycling bins is shipped off the Island and only be 30 to 40 lony-loads per year of glass going to does not go to the landfill site.' I then gave the amounts of landfill, which is negligible compared to the total amount glass shipped off and I then went on to say, 'It is not going into landfill? proposed that glass will be taken to the incinerator when it becomes operational, as this would be inappropriate and Mr Gilbey: I am afraid I cannot give the costs for glass for this reason the department will continue its efforts to but I will obtain them and circulate them. I did not expect encourage householders to deposit used bottles in the bottle to be asked the total costs for glass and the transport ofit. banks at the various sites round the Island.' So I therefore made it perfectly and abundantly clear that glass has been The President: The hon. Mr Braidwood. and is shipped off this Island. Now, whether it goes in coal boats or not, or did go in coal boats, I really do not know, Mr Braidwood: Mr President, I was going to ask a but I really do not think that is a particularly relevant matter, similar question on the total costings. how it went. The thing is that it does go to be recycled and it is the duty of the officers concerned to see that it goes in The President: Thank you. The hon. Mr Duggan. the most economic manner.

'Waste Arisings - Recycling - Question by Mrs Hannan T230 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, I4th DECEMBER 1999

Composting -Advice and Financial Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, could the minister inform this by Mrs Hannan hon. Court would the minister not agree how can we have Incentives - Question any confidence that his department will look at this seriously when they cannot come out with the real costs of 10, the hon. member for Peel The President: Question incineration to the households in this Island, and would he also not agree that the situation is that we will not see this Hannan: I beg leave to ask the Minister for Local Mrs because we have officers who have pushed for incineration Govemment and the Environment: who now work for consultancy firms who are getting a second bite at the cherry as far as this is concerned? What plans does your department have to encourage to adopt composting qs a means of waste householders The President: Reply, minister. It might be irrelevant disposal by providing - to the question. (l) advice, and Mr Gilbey: I think it unfortunate that there is a complete lack of understanding of the hon. member of the total (ii) financialincentives? integrated waste management plan where you have all these different things working together. You have reuse, recycling The Minister for Local Government and The President: which includes composting, and you have incineration. to replY. the Environment There is absolutely no reason why you cannot have incineration and composting standing side by side and that Gilbey: Mr President, as hon. members will be Mr is the intention. Composting is an extremely good idea aware, the Island's policy on waste management is - and and means that waste green material can be usefully reused quote from page 47 of the 1999 Policy Review which here I as compost for land reclamation or even in certain was endorsed by this hon. Court in October 1999 - 'to circumstances as quite a high grade additive to gardens develop and promote an integrated vi aste management plan and other land. embraðing: reduction, re-use and recovery, recycling and landfill añd which recognises the "user pays principle".' The waste management plan is currently the subject of consultation and it should be finalised within the next few Pre-School Facilities - months. Question by Mrs Cannell As part of the overall strategy, I confirm that the courage householders to contribute The President: Question ll, the hon. member for . This will be achieved through a Douglas East, Mrs Cannell. and education, both aspects being equally important. Mrs Cannell: Thank you, Mr President. I beg leave to The department has been in discussion in recent months ask the Minister for Education: with the southern local authorities who provide representatives to the committee managing the southern Do you intend to provide pre-school facilities in civic amenity site at Port St Mary. These discussions have primary schools throughout the Island? been in relation to various proposals to upgrade and improve the facilities at the civic amenity site. One of the The President: The Minister for Education to reply. matters under discussion has been the possibility of introducing a somewhat innovative scheme which includes Mr Rodan: Mr President, the department's pre-school the development of green waste composting adjacent to education policy is very clearly articulated in the Isle of the civic amenity facility. Composting material will be used Man Government policy document and it is to allow as a soil conditioner in the context of a restoration project children to attend the reception class of primary schools for the former landfill sites and there will be an educational from the beginning of the academic year in which they are component to the scheme. I can say that I myself have five years of age, to ensure that the early years curriculum been to Somerset and there have seen a very interesting for three and four-year-olds is followed in nursery classes composting system which is at work. and as appropriate by four-year-olds in reception classes, The department is also giving consideration to the to identify and meet the special educational needs of pre- possibilities of introducing home composting but this needs school children, to provide half-day term-time only much thought and careful planning. It is also dependent sessions in pre-school education and to consider the on the support of householders to make it viable and here establishment of nursery education for children as and again education will be an important feature. Home when resources become available. composting schemes can not be introduced overnight and There is one pre-school assessment unit in Pulrose the department's Manx Recycling Forum, comprising currently providing for 100 children aged between birth representatives ofboth the public and private sectors under and school entry age and there are four 20'place nurseries, the chairmanship of the hon. member forAyre, Mr Quine, at Jurby, Manor Park, Cronk y Beny and Ballacottier. will consider home composting when that body meets early Under the department's specific programmes and projects in the New Year. during the next 12 months we shall seek to establish three

Composting - Advice and Financial Incentives - Question by Mrs Hannan Pre-school Facilities - Question by Mrs Cannell TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th DECEMBER 1999 T231

fulher nursery classes and these are at Castletown, Peel the basis that society will reap a dividend several years and Ramsey. In the fullness of time the department would down the line. like to be in a position to provide pre-school facilities at each and every primary school in the Isle of Man. Dr Mann: Mr President, would the minister not agree that there is not like-for-like provision in the educational The President: A supplementary, hon. member? provision of the nursery schools of the department and the provision in private nurseries or childminding, that there Mrs Cannell: Thank you, Mr President. I thank the is no automatic demand for whole-time nursery hon. minister for his information this morning but would accommodation beingprovided by the department and this he not agree with me that people who can use the facilities is quite different from private nursery provision? which he has described this morning can use them at no President, yes, cost, in other words there is not a charge or a fee and that Mr Rodan: Mr I thank the hon. member just stress that the to the generalpublic, parents of young children who have of the Council and would department's pre-school provision is made up of moming and to pay out for pre-school nursery facilities, there appears aftemoon and is from 9 a.m. to 3.30 p.m. The facilities are an unfairness and an imbalance, and if he agrees with me sessions there would he and his department consider perhaps not open early to late, as are many of the private nurseries which provide a service for working parents to look after bringing forward some kind of assistance to those parents their children, and neither are the Department of Education who cannot take advantage of the existing facilities he has open during school holidays or weekends. What described, by way of vouchers or something similar? nurseries we are about is delivering education to this particular category from an educational benefit point of view and Mr Rodan: Mr President, as I made clear in my answer notproviding a childminding or baby-sitting service during the department's policy is to consider the establishment of the totality of parents' working hours. nursery education as and when resources become available throughout the Island at all our primary schools as nursery Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, would the minister not agree attachment units. that our constituents in Onchan are paying twice who have At the moment with the provision that we have at Jurby, to provide these facilities, and would he also not agree Pulrose, Cronk y BerÐ, and Ballacottier we provide in term- that he should come in with a time period as far as time only for some 13 percent of the age group concemed introducing some sort of voucher system for every child and we estimate this to be around 900 children. With the ofthis age group in the Island? programme for the next months the provision will l2 Furthermore would the minister also not agree it is a increase to some 26 ¡o 30 per cent of the age group. So I scandal that the Manx speakers, with their Gaelic think the hon. member can see that the department is very playgroup, have to rely on charity to pay rent for property keen, where possible, to provide for education for this that is owned by the Department of Education in order to particular category of children. We have not, to my run a playgroup and will he look into giving them parity knowledge, given active consideration to a system of with Scotland? vouchers as has been suggested but we will put educational resources into pre-school facilities where \ile can. Mr Rodan: Mr President, I thought I had made it clear the Department of Education is not in the business of Mr Cannell: Mr President, a supplementary if I may, providing childcare facilities for working parents, it is in please. Would the hon. minister not agree with me that the the business ofdelivering education, and this it does very present system of the schools which enjoy these facilities successfully for three and four-year-olds in areas where can be viewed as being selective and that there is no we have deliberately established good educational provision whatsoever for the two schools in Onchan and it facilities. So the short answer is, no, I will not consider a appears that the department is relying on the use of the voucher system wholesale for working parents for their private facilities to the detriment, as has already been children to be looked after while they work. alluded to, of parents who cannot afford such facilities? Now, as regards the other part of the supplementary which was with reference to Mooinjer Veggey, basically I Mr Rodan: Mr President, I would certainly agree that can confirm that I had a very interesting and fruitful the private facilities which are available in the Island, meeting in the department with Mr Finlay Macleod who although not in every part of the Island, do go to meeting is in charge of the Scottish Gaelic school service and was a social requirement. What the department wishes to do of very impressed with the work that is being done there and course is to target new facilities in areas where there will at this stage all I would like to say is that it was particularly be the most social benefit, where there are perhaps not the useful, the discussion, and the department will carry private facilities available, but I fully accept the point that forward a number of ideas emanating from that meeting, inevitably it means there are going to be parents who have but again I must emphasise that in the totality of the to pay for private nursery education. They always have resources that we have the department actually is beginning done and they always will. What the Department of to do quite well, is doing pretty well in the provision of Education seeks to do is to improve the overall level of the pre-school education. I have reiterated the policy that provision from an educational benefit point ofview and to in the next l2 months three more units - we have four - are put in places a pre-school curriculum recommended for intended to be open and I think that should be a cause for three and four-year-olds and to put more resources in on congratulation to the department.

Pre-School Facilities - Question by Mrs Cannell T232 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, I4th DECEMBER 1999

School Tlansport Question by the Speaker contacted me and I happily again apologise for that - situation. However, it is something about which, once I heard it on the radio,I got immediately in touch with the The President: Question 12,the hon. Mr Speaker. department, I sent a memo to the officer because I was not happy about that situation, and members in here and people The Speaker: Yes, Mr President, I beg leave to ask the assured that we will be doing whatever in Minister for Tourism and Leisure: outside can be our power to make sure there is no repetition. On how many occasions in the last I2 months have Houghton: Thank children been late arriving at school due to the failure of Mr You. transport provided by your department? The President: The hon. member for Douglas North, The President: The Minister for Tourism and Leisure Mr Henderson. to reply. Mr Henderson: Mr President, the hon. minister has in his final words, sir. Mr Cretney: Mr President, my department operates answered my supplementary on a daily basis 32 school route bus services and one route designatèd for the Isle of Man College. In addition 16 service routes carry school passengers. Financial Supervision Commission - I recognise this daily service has experienced some Accommodation - Question by Mr Lowey difficulties recently and I can only apologise again where this has been the case. However, it should be emphasised The President: Hon. members, we move on then to that the vast majority of school buses do operate on time. item l3 and I call upon the hon. member of the Council, Where s d this has been due Mr Lowey. not only to also the additional congestion examPle of this is Mr Lowey: I beg leave to ask the Chairman of the the service raddan roadworks' Financial Supervision Commission: Obviously increasing traffic problems impact on the reliability of the service provided. 'Where (1) When was it decided that purpose'buiLt my department has received a complaint either øccommodation should be provided for the from a member of the public or from a representative of a F inanc ial Sup e rv is i o n C ommis s ion ; and local school every effort has been made to address the issue duties concerned. For example, the starting time of two (2) where is it to be built? were advanced to allow for congestion en route to one of our Douglas secondary schools. The President: The Chairman of the Financial being Reliability due to maintenance issues is currently Supervision Commission to reply. addressed by my officers to the extent that 12 second-hand shortly be in double-deckers have been ordered and will MrBraidwood: Thank you, Mr President. I can confirm placed for operation. In addition a recent order has been that alternative accommodation is being sought for the the early six new double-deckers which will arrive in Financial Supervision Commission in a new office block' summer and assist in an improved level of service. As members are aware, during the year 2000 the my department is actively reviewing its fleet Furthermore commission will assume responsibility for the companies the future to ensure our local purchase requirements for registry and therefore will considerably increase its staff its customer. bus service meets the need of numbers. The existing companies registry function is in temporary accommodation in the old General Registry Mr President, does the minister agree Mr Houghton: building for which the Department of Local Government that the failure of school buses to appear for children and the Environment has major refurbishment proposals. waiting at bus stops, especially in driving rain, when his The companies registry will have to vacate these premises department has not even provided a shelter at significant before this refurbishment can take place. Operationally it sites is sheer neglect in its duty of care, to say the least, would also be more effective for the companies registry sir? and the commission to be co-located at a site within close proximity to Government Offtces and the finance sector. Mr Cretney: The estate in question, I believe, is the within the commission's Governor's Hill estate. I have indicated that it is our Meanwhile working conditions becoming intention to provide four bus shelters in that area. Perhaps existing office accommodation is already responsibilities that is something in retrospect where via the planning congested with the increased supervisory process we could have had some influence in terms of the which it is taking on. Accordingly the Department of Local developer's co-operation in that respect. Government and the Environment have identified suitable In térms of the unsatisfactory, and I accept it is totally alternative office accommodation which is being built by unsatisfactory situation where youngsters were again - this a private developer at Finch Hill, Buck's Road. The is the second time, I understand - put in a situation where accommodation will be leased and the commission and they were wet, I have apologised to those people who have companies registry will be relocating to the new

School Transport - Question by the Speaker Financial Supervision Commission -Accommodation - Question by Mr Lowey TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, I4th DECEMBER I999 T233

accommodation. In addition it is anticipated that two other Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I beg to ask the Chief government departments will also relocate to this Minister: accommodation. (1) In the opinion of your Council of Ministers what The President: A supplementary, hon. member? area of land is needed in the short to medium term on which to build further housing for first-time Mr Lowey: Thank you, Mr President. V/ould the buyers; Chairman of the Financial Supervision Commission not agree that they knew that they were going to have the two (2) how much land zoned for rhe purpose is presently departments, the registry put with it and making it into a owned by the government; and new expanded Financial Supervision Commission? Isn't it rather strange that within government ownership there (3) where is it? was the Post Office building in Finch Road which is within the golden mile, less than 100 yards from where they are The President: The Chief Minister to reply. going to relocate in the private sector, and it seems to me to be silly to be selling buildings off within govemment Mr Gelling: Mr President, the Department of Local and at the same time going into new buildings and where Government will be publishing its Housing Policy Review in the governmentprogramme of building acquisition does Report before the end of the year and will be inviting all this appear, because I am afraid I do not see it in any of the hon. members to a briefing on it and it is to be held on government publi cations ? 1Oth January 2000. The report is to be included as a motion on the Tynwald Mr Braidwood: Mr President, I cannot possibly order paper for January of 2000 and this report will contain comment on the sale of the Post Office building, sir. From full details of land availability forresidential development what information I have been given, the Financial and I would not wish to pre-empt that report here today. Supervision Commission have looked for new The issue can be better dealt with, I would suggest, next going to accommodate accommodation because they are month. plus may I say the the companies registry and themselves, However, I would perhaps remind hon. members that and also the fraud and information services division the department is conhdent that there is sufficient land financial investigation unit are likely to be located in the designated for housing and looking to the longer term will premises, new sir. continue to acquire land for housing as it becomes available, ifindeed a satisfactory price can be agreed, sir. Mr Lowey: 'Would the Chairman of the Financial Supervision Commission be aware and would he confirm The President: A supplementary, hon. member? that the fraud squad, if that is what it is called, is already located in the existing buildings where the new expanded Eaghtyrane, I am delighted that the Chief companies part of his expanded department has come out Mr Karran: has managed to get the housing report coming - of? They will then be moving out of the courthouse where Minister had more than the second coming - and they are at the moment. Again would the Chairman of the it has comings Financial Supervision Commission tell me where in the would the Chief Minister not agree that he should make it government accounts does this appear? clear what his Council of Ministers thinks and answer this question now, as members want to get something done Mr Braidwood: Mr President, the hon. member of the about this problem? Council has commented on the fraud squad. This will be accommodated in the new office block and the space they Mr Gelling: MrPresident, there was a very full answer are accommodating at the present time will go to the given in another place to a question raised by the hon. registry. What I would like to say is that the building is member Mr Singer for Ramsey which of course detailed a going to be leased and that has been allowed for in the lot of the information that the hon. member for Onchan Financial Supervision Commission's budget and reflects has asked as to where the places were around the Island. the commission's additional space requirement rent for the So basically all I can say to the hon. member for Onchan office space for the companies registry, the cost of which is that the Council of Ministers of course have now seen is currently met centrally through the Department of Local the report, the report will be coming forward, as I have Government and the Environment, and an increase in the suggested, and I think then members will have the operational costs, cleaning, et cetera will be opportunity to have their say as regards to the housing and accommodated. the supply of land, sir. Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, would the Chief Minister not agree with me that we have no places for high-density llousing for First-Time Buyers - Land - housing at the present time out in any of the plans? Would Question by Mr Karran the Chief Minister agree with me with that apart from on the Springfield/Harcroft site there is nowhere else at the The President: Question 14, the hon. member for present time where there is going to be housing within the Onchan, Mr Karran. next two to three years, and would the Chief Minister agree

Housing for First-Time Buyers - Land - Question by Mr Karran T234 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, I4th DECEMBER 1999

with me that his housing policy is an absolute sham at the the area in the vicinity of the Point of Ayre lighthouse. present time? This area has been used by the department for landfilling purposes for several years. The aim of the proposals is to Mr Gelling: Mr President, as I say, there are ongoing lessen the impact of current landfilling atWright's Pit East discussions and of course it does take time to get houses and to introduce a comprehensive and environmentally out of the ground and it is not many years ago that we had appropriate restoration scheme for the previous and present houses that were first-time buyers' houses that were sold landfill sites. [n the longer term the proposals envisage back to the department that we could not sell. In fact they introducing measures to restore all of the department's were reduced in price to sell them. This is something that landfill sites near the Point ofAyre to a high-quality habitat gallic heathland comes round in á cyclical way and all I am saying to the which is in keeping with the naturally hon. member is please be patient: the housing report will found there. question be with you next month, there will be a presentation on I must be very careful in answering this not to say anything which migbt prejudice the fair consideration 1Oth January and then all will be revealed. of the application which is made in the department's name by the Governor in Council. However, the documents Mr Lowey: Can I ask the Chief Minister, when he says which are available to the public as part of the application the housing report will be with us, will we be debating it for planning consent confirmed the department's intention in parliament, in this hon. Court, next month or in January? to retain the operation of Wright's Pit East landfill beyond Because if we are going to have seminars, my great worry the end of the year 2000 until full to capacity. At the current is that parliament is being bypassed and government and rate of fìll this is expected to be by the late 2003. the executive are actually governing by seminar and that, The application documents also refer to the possible would he not agree, is a dangerous precedent? need to utilise the void available within Wright's Pit North but emphasise that should it prove necessary to consider Mr Gelling: No, MrPresident, as I said, the presentation using this much smaller site at some time in the future, a is 10th January and there will be a motion down for on separate application would then be submitted. In other debate on the January Tynwald paper, sir. words Wright's Pit North is being earmarked as a possible strategic reserve for the future which may not be called upon. Landfill Sites - Question by Mrs Hannan In answer to the second part of the hon. member's question, the department is presently investigating two The President: Question 15, the hon. member for Peel. other sites to determine their suitability for the disposal of municipal solid waste and incinerator bottom ash. These Mrs Hannan: Eaghtyrane, I beg leave to ask the are the sites at Ballaharra sandpit, St John's, and Turkeyland Minister for Local Government and the Environment: Quarry, Malew, respectively. The department is also looking to identify further sites for future use if either or I have mentioned proves not to be ( I ) What is the lifespøn of the landfi,ll sites at the Ayres; both of the above sites and suitable when environmental and risk assessments have been completed. Only if the outcome of the environmental (2) what other plans does your department have for and risk assessments is satisfactory will the department be Iandfill? seeking planning permission to use the site. Hon. members may also like to know that there are a The President: The Minister for Local Govemment and number of private sites on the Island which are licensed the This is the Environment to reply. by the department for receipt of inert materials. another important aspect of the waste management strategy Mr Gilbey: Mr President, in answering the hon. because the void space available at Wright's Pit East and subsequent sites should be regarded as a valuable member's question I am presuming that by the expression in the meet an essential Island need. As such the material 'lifespan' she means the capacity of the landfill sites at the asset to deposited in those sites needs to be carefully Ayres to accept waste material. I preface my answer in which is managed and controlled. Consequently every effort will this way because there is currently a planning restriction the department to improve the measures for on the Department of Local Government and the be made by the segregation of waste so that inert material is diverted Environment using Wright's Pit East and North which will to other more appropriate sites. expire in December 2000. As hon. members will no doubt be aware from recent Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, would the minister not agree statements made by the department and reported that that reply is as clear as mud, and would he also agree extensively in the media, the department has lodged a that the truth is that we have years left in sites at the Ayres planning application to extend the use of \Vright's Pit East as far as refuse is concerned? Would he not also tell this beyond the December 2000 deadline. Prior to submitting hon. Court that what we are having is gerrymandered the application the department held a public exhibition in information as far as the true lifespan of that area being Bride village to explain its proposals for the completion used for refuse ìn order to give this Court once again the and restoration of the area's landfill sites. What the bum's rush in order to support its govemment's crazy department is proposing is a comprehensive strategy for policy on incineration?

Landfill Sites - Question by Mrs Hannan TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, I4th DECEMBER I999 T235

Mr Gilbey: I certainly would not agree that it is as clear incineration as soon as we can get an incinerator as mud, although that might be an amusing allegory as we operational. There do seem, unfortunately, to be some are talking about refuse disposal. I think the statement is misunderstandings about some small amendments that perfectly clear. I and my colleagues in the department are need to be made, but I must say a lot of this is whipped up oppose incineration at all costs, which þerfectly clear on our overall plan. We would admit that in by people who will the past years the attention has not been given to waste I find very sad. disposal that should have been. Under the previous minister a very worthwhile start was made to bring sense to our Mr Duggan: Up Stoney Mountain, Walter. waste disposal policies and that is now being continued and I am very glad that he is still in the department and in Mrs Hannan: Eaghtyrane, maybe you could explain charge of this, the department member responsible. whether it is right and proper to ask these questions. The When the hon. member Mr Karran talks about years suggestion has been made that because the Court has left at the Point of Ayre, this is totally untrue and inconect. decided, it is improper to ask questions on this particular 'We have had lengthy talks with our consultants about this. issue (Mr Duggan: Hear, hear.) and I wonder if I could Even at the slowest rate of fïlling that one could imagine, have a ruling? Wright's Pit East would be filled after four or five years. As I have said before, we expect it to have a life of about The President: Perhaps I could respond to that, in the three years and we certainly do not want, neither do the sense it is not improper to ask questions of any minister in Iocal people in the north of the Island want, it to be this Court, but there is a growing tendency on the part of necessary to use Wright's Pit North. So the hon. member the Court not to accept the answers given by ministers and is mistaken in saying that there are vast areas available to to indulge in supplementaries being used as debating be filled there: there are not. If he wants a more detailed pornts. explanation and to go through the plans with either the hon. member forAyre or myself or our officers, we will be Mrs Hannan: Could I ask the minister - he talked about very pleased to do that with him. other sites - is it possible for him to explain what management takes place on these sites and whether the The President: When the hon. member for Onchan, waste that could be used or recycled is being reused and Mr Karran, chooses to use colourful language, I suggest recycled? that in future perhaps he should express it in Manx. (lnughter) The hon. MrDuggan. Mr Gilbey: There are a number of sites that are licensed for inert waste. One of them is lhergydhoo where a very Mr Duggan: Thank you, Mr President. When the good job is being made of filling it up with inert waste and minister replied to a previous question he said he did not I think most people in the area feel the quicker that process know the cost per tonne. Surely for operating tips you can proceed the better and of course if more inert waste is should know the cost per tonne, and if you do not know, moved to Lhergydhoo and not taken to the Point of Ayre it let the Court know if you do not mind. means that the Point of Ayre area will last longer. It also means that costs are saved in transport. I am also very Mr Gilbey: I explained, Mr President, that it is on the glad to say that Mr Corlett at Ballaharra, St John's is doing cubic area, not on the tonnage. It is on the volume of an excellent job in actually recycling inert waste where he material that is deposited and that is the important part. is putting it through sieves et cetera and separating soil But in answer to the main question here, there is not room from stone and rubble, and soil can be used in some places in any land owned by the government up there to go on and the stone and rubble in others, and this is what we and on tipping refuse in the nonh of the Island and nor is it want to encourage and are encouraging. a desirable place to do it because obviously the transport to the north of the Island is about the furthest place for the The President: Hon. members, that concludes with the majority of the population that you could find. written answers for the remaining questions, that indeed concludes our scrutiny of the question paper this morning. Mr Cannell: Mr President, a supplementary if I may. Would the hon. minister not agree with me that this Court has overwhelmingly voted in favour of the procedure which EU, OECD, Brussels - Professional Advisers will lead us to the installation of an incinerator? However, to the Council of Ministers by there are some changes proposed in terms and conditions - Question which appear to alarm the public and need to be better Mr Cannan for Written Answer explained. Question 16 Mr Duggan: Hear, hear. We are short of answers. The hon. member for Michael, Mr Cannan, to ask the Mr Gilbey: I totally agree with the statement by the Chief Minister: hon. member that there has been an overwhelming, in my view, completely right decision. We have got the policy (I) Who are the professional advisers to the Council of set out in the policy document which clearly includes Ministers on matters concerning -

EU, OECD, Brussels - Professional Advisers to the Council of Ministers - Question by Mr Cannan for Written Answer T236 TYNWALD COURÏ, TUESDAY, I4Ih DECEMBER 1999

(a) the European Union; the Isle of Man Røilway Company Limited to maintain; and (b) the Organisation of Economic Co'operation and. Development; and (2) if not, where does the duty now lie?

(2) (a) who are the agents in Brussels actingfor the Answer Isle of Man Government; Certain 'road over rail' bridges listed in schedule 1 to (b) what is their remit; and the Highways Act 1986 wsre vested by section 5 of that Act in the formerHighway Board 'together with all or any (c) what are they paid? rights and obligations attaching thereto' and are now vested in the Department of Transport; as such they become Answer highways maintainable at the public expense.

(1) No outside professional advisers have been engaged Bridges which are not vested in the Department of on any general remit to advise on: Transport pursuant to section 5 of the l986Act and which carry a highway over a railway, a highway or any water or (a) the European Union; watercourse may be the subject of an agreement between the department and the owner of the bridge conceming: (b) theOrganisationforEconomicCo-operation and Development. (a) the payment by the department of contributions towards the cost of However, advice may be sought, as required, on reconstruction, improvement or maintenance specific points from a variety of sources' of the bridge;

(2) (a) The Isle of Man Government has a (b) the transfer to the department on such terms contractual arrangement with \ilhite and as may be agreed, of the property in the Case, a legal firm in Brussels. bridge (which shall thereupon become a highway maintainable atthe public expense) (b) Under this contractual arrangement S/hite and of all or any rights and obligations and Case undertake - attaching to the bridge.

(Ð to provide, on an ongoing basis, a 'Rail over road' bridges where the railway is still monitoring and information service operational are the responsibility of the Department of on developments within the EU which Tourism and Leisure as railway operator under schedule may be of interest or imPortance to 5, paragraph 3 of the Isle of Man Passenger Transport Act the Isle of Man; and 1982.

(ii) to be available on a 'special project' No enforceable statutory obligations exist in relation to basis to research and advise on other railway bridges, for example bridges over or under particularissues relating to the EU on accommodation roads between fields abutting a disused the initiative of the Isle of Man railway line which was formerly vested in the Isle of Man Government. Railway Company but which was subsequently acquired by the former Government Property Trustees. (c) The financial terms agreed are subject to commercial confi denti ality. Where abridge is not vested in a government department pursuant to the foregoing provisions a private owner may owe a duty of care in negligence and/or nuisance in respect Road and Rail Bridges and Abutment Walls of a bridge of any kind. - Duty to Maintain - Question by Mr Cannan for WrittenAnswer Certified Security Oflicer - Registration - Question 17 Question by Mr Cannan for Written Answer

The hon. member for Michael, Mr Cannan, to ask HM Question 18 Attorney-General: The hon. member for Michael, Mr Cannan, to ask HM ( l) Does the Department of Transport have a statutory Attorney-General: duty to maintain all road and rail bridges and abutment walls which was previously the duty of In respect of a certffied security fficer -

Road and Rail Bridges and Abutment Walls - Duty to Maintain - Question by Yr Cannan for Written Answer Certified Security Officer - Registration - Question by Mr Cannan for Written Answer TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th DECEMBER I999 T237

(Specified (1) what is the procedurefor registration; l, part I of the Payment of Members' Expenses Bodies) Order 1997 as one of the bodies whose members (2) what are the grounds on which an application for are entitled to receive attendance and travelling allowances registration may be refused; in respect of each meeting that they attend in any one session. (3) what is the procedure for appeal against such a refusal; The Treasury has power under the 1989 Act, to prescribe by order, the level of the allowances. (4) The current rates are prescribed in the Attendance Allowances Order 1999, approved by Tynwald in October, and this provides that legally qualified chairmen are entitled to f66.00 per hour, whilst other members are entitled to (5) are applicants informed of the reasonfor refusal of f25.00 per session. registration and the procedure for appeal against such refusal? The current rates for travelling allowance are prescribed in the Travelling Allowances Order 1998, and are those Answer which apply to all person travelling on government business. With effect from lst November 1998 a rate of (l) By virtue of a code of practice which has been 42 pence per mile is payable for the first 6000 miles in developed by the Summary Courts' Office an respect of a motor vehicle up to 1299 cc and 48 pence applicant for the position of a security offTcer on when the vehicle is above this capacity. licensed nightclub premises must complete a form of application to His Worship the Deputy High Bailiff supported by two references and two Announcement of Royal Assent photographs. An application fee of f 15 is payable. The President: I have to inform the Court that the (2) The application may be refused on the basis of the Copyright (Amendment) Act and the Children and Young applicant's previous convictions. Persons (Sale of Addictive and lntoxicating Substances) Act, along with the Villa Marina Act, have been granted (3) There is no procedure for appeal against such a Royal Assent this day. refusal.

(4) Applicants are made aware of the general type of convictions which would result in an application Merchant ShinninSn(Fees) Regulations 1999 being refused and the convictions are not necessarily restricted to those listed in subsection (1) ofsection 40 of the Licensing Act 1995. The President: Now, hon. members, we turn to item 3 on our order paper and I call upon the Minister for Trade (5) Applicants are informed of the reason for refusal of and Industry. the application but, as noted in (3) above, there is no procedure for appeal against refusal. Mr North: Mr President, I beg to move:

That the Merchant Shipping (Fees) Regulations Employment Tfibunal Members - 1999 ISD No 662/99] be approved. Remuneration and Expenses - Question by The Merchant Shipping (Fees) Regulations 1999 Mr Henderson for Written Answer prescribe new levels of fees for marine surveys and ship registration services provided by the marine administration Question 19 division of the department. The regulations revoke and replace the previous fees The hon. member for Douglas North, Mr Henderson, regulations and fees for surveys of fishing vessels, to ask the Minister for Trade and Industry: registration of ships and fees for seamen's certification, however, remain unaltered and are re-enacted in the new What remuneration and expenses are payable to the regulations. Under the new fees regulations survey fees of members of the Isle of Man Employment Tribunal? merchant ships are chargeable according to a banded structure relating to geographic area, for example specified Answer in the table in the regulations. In reaching its decision to make the new fee regulations Under the provisions of the Payment of Expenses Act the department has borne in the mind the following 1989, the Employment Tribunal is identified at schedule influences: the United Kingdom's corporate tonnage tax

Employment Tribunal Members - Remuneration and Expenses - Question by Mr Henderson for Written Answer Announcement of RoYal Assent Merchant Shipping (Fees) Regulations 1999 - Approved T238 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th DECEMBER 1999 scheme, the proposed implementation of the 33 encourage some of our ship owners on the Isle of Man to reconimendations of the United Kingdom paper return to the United Kingdom. Now, I personally would 'Chartering a New Course', the aggressive marketing have thought that they should be working with the Isle of initiative oÍ the United Kingdom register by the marine Man as a Red Ensign group and looking at a lot of the ships that are all over the world that went to other registers, not to the United Kingdom, because our register really comprises many, many foreign owners from Japanese, Italian, German, we have got dozens and dozens of different later in 2000 of mandatory inspection of crew types of connections. Certainly through the EU \ile cannot accommodation et cetera under ILO conventions 178 and discriminate under protocol 3 against any of the European to time, 1 80. countries, but we are pilloried from time certainly The regulations have been drawn up after consultation by United Kingdom unions who do not like to see ships with the shipping industry and the Treasury. Treasury losing UK ratings but taking on, for instance, Portuguese consent to mãking the regulations was granted on the 3rd ratings, and they berate the Isle of Man quite wrongly for November 1999. this fact that we have to comply with the Treaty of Rome, Mr President, it is now my pleasure to move this motion and because we are small as a jurisdiction we really have standing in my name and subject to Tynwald approval to be very careful and on our guard all the time with the today the regulations will come into operation on the lst shipping register. January 2000. We have obviously, as I mentioned, cabotage problems because Manx ships cannot trade within the EU between Mrs Crowe: I beg to second, Mr President. one country, and that is something that we are continually hoping will be removed, and it is an ongoing situation and Mr Henderson: Mr President, I thank the hon. minister I just hope that the hon. member retains his interest in the for some of his explanations in moving this order but I marine side because it is an ongoing situation, it is a notice at parr. 4 of the briefing notes that he does make changing situation from month to month. These fees are correct reference to, and he did so in his verbal comments to try and make sure that we do retain and work with the just now, the United Kingdom's corporate tonnage tax shipping industry that is a part of our economy, and I beg scheme and he also mentioned aggressive marketing to move, Mr President. initiatives over the United Kingdom register. Now, I raised these issues not so very long ago in question formatbecause The President: Hon. members, I will now put the I too was concemed and I was assured that at that time our resolution set out at item 3 on the order paper. Will those shipping register was more concerned with merchant in favour please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. shipping and things were okay. Now, this is clearly The ayes have it. indicating a slight shift in that policy that was indicated by the hon. minister at that time and what I am seeking now is some further clarification on just what is happening here DHSS Excess Expenditure Authorised and does he now accept that the United Kingdom's - corporate tonnage tax, amongst other initiatives, will have The President: Item 4, the Minister for Health and and could he just clarify an impact on our own business Social Security. how these changes are going to benefit our own register improve our situation, please? Thank you, Mr and Mrs Christian: Mr President, I beg to move: President. That authorises the Treasury in respect of Mr North: Mr President, I thank the hon. member for þnwald the year ended 3lst March 1999 to apply surplus his interest in this subject and the reason for amending from receipts totally f2,559,022 of the Department of Heahh this is to make sure that we are not affected, as we do not Social Security the sum of f.2,200,458 in payment of think we will be, by the introduction of the UK's tonnage and expenditure. tax and that is becoming, I think, more and more clear as excess we go along. What we have to do is just make sure that we is a technical resolution the background of which do remain competitive but maintain the standards of our This in briefing notes which hon. members register, and has been described register in pa have received. department's general revenue accounts on quality as In summary the the insurance hon. member's; interest in this particular subject because transactions in 1998-99, excluding national it is very complex. fund operating account, were in surplus by about f,3.7 As I said, we know, due to new management at the head million as against budget. In consultation with Treasury it of the MCA in the United Kingdom, that there is now was agreed that f3.3 million of the surplus be transferred aggressive marketing and in fact to the medical equipment replacement fund. That fund was is a practice that the Isle of Man established at the end of 1997-98 by utilising f 1.5 million years. They are now trying to ca of the department's general revenue account surplus for there have been indications they are also looking to that year.

DHSS - Excess Expenditure Authorised TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th DECEMBER I999 T239

The purpose of the fund, which is managed by Treasury' Tbansfer of Functions (Medicines Etc.) is seen by the department as providing a strategic reserve Order 1999 -Approved for any necessary but unplanned purchases ofmedical and related equipment for health services, whether arising from The President: We move on. Item 6, the Chief Minister. Y2K compliancy issues or otherwise. I beg to move, Mr President. Mr Gelling: Mr President, I beg to move:

Mrs Crowe: I beg to second, Mr President, and reserve That the Transfer of Functions (Medicines Etc.) my remarks. Order 1999 ISD No 582/99] be approved.

Mr Henderson: Mr President,I thank the hon. minister This order primarily transfers to the Department of for her information on this particular point but I am Health and Social Security the joint responsibility of the supportive of the measure, so that is not the issue. The Department of Local Govemment and the Environment of Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry issue is just a point of clarification here. Surplus receipts, and the Department Act 1976.In addition it also transfers f2.5 million. I would just like to ask the minister for some under the Medicines responsibility of the Department of Local further clarification on that and how that occuned. Thank the statutory and the Environment under the Misuse you. Government of Drugs Act 1976 and the Poisons Act 1979 to the Department of Health and Social Security. The President: Reply, minister. Now, the order has the support of the three departments involved and is the result of an extemally led review of Mrs Christian: Mr President, the major part of surplus the pharmaceutical advisory and regulatory services the to the national health receipts related to contribution provided by government. contributions which service from the national insurance The statutory responsibilities proposed to be transferred in that are received on an annual basis. The estimate under the Medicines Act 1976 include the regulation of particular area was exceeded and for that reason the the importation, manufacture, distribution and sale or percentage of transfer from NI contributions to the health supply of both human and animal medicines and medicated service was greater than anticipated for the year. That animal feedstuffs. The Act regulates the sale or supply of represents the major part of the increase in receipts. medicinal products by pharmacists, medical practitioners, veterinary surgeons, agricultural merchants and saddlers The President: Hon. members, I will now put the and also regulates the international trade in medicinal resolution set out at item 4 on the order paper. Will those products carried out by Manx companies. in favour please say aye; against no. The ayes have it. The Now, the order also proposes the transfer of the ayes have it. remaining responsibilities of the Department of Local Govemment and the Environment under the Misuse of Drugs Act 1976 to the Department of Health and Social Procedural Security. These include the responsibility for reviewing and updating the legislation, as well as powers to regulate The President: Item 5, the Minister for Local the storage of drugs of misuse, the keeping of records and the treatment of addiction. The Poisons Act 1979 regulates Government and the Environment. the importation, distribution and sale of non-medicinal poisons. It is proposed to transfer the responsibility for Mr Gilbey: Mr President, I beg to move that the motion this statute at the same time, as it requires the same skills at item 5, the Ramsey harbour regeneration, be taken at and expertise as those required for medicinal products. adjoumment. the first convenient moment after luncheon Now, the order, if approved, will consolidate the The reason for that is that this is an extremely important statutory responsibility of these three Acts within the item for the north of the Island and we have got a full primary healthcare section of the Department of Health presentation at lunch with the political member responsible, and Social Security who will then provide a single point the officer responsible, the lawyer responsible and a of contact for the public with regard to advice and the representative of Dean and Dybell and it does seem much regulation of medicinal products and non-medicinal more logical that hon. members should have the chance to poisons and enable the most efficient and effective use of hear from them before debating this issue, so I do hope the President, I beg to move the motion standing Court would agree this adjoumment. resources. Mr at item number 6 on our agenda paper today, sir. Mr Houghton: I beg to second, sir. Mr Downie: I beg to second, Mr President, and reserve The President: Is that agreed, hon. members? my remarks.

Members: Agreed. Mr Singer: Mr President, I wish to move:

The President: Thank you. That debate be adjournedlo the February 2000 sitting.

Procedural Transfer of Functions (Medicines Etc.) Order 1999 - Approved T240 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAX l4th DECEMBER 1999

This order results from the Cheyne report which was a considering the importance of the implications of what we report on behalf of three departments - the DHSS, DoLGE are about to vote on this morning and I think it is right and and DAFF - and the report was delivered in October 1998 proper that we should have as full a briefing or as much and has taken l4 months to appear before this hon. Court. information as we can do prior to being expected to cast a That in itself asks the question as to why it should have vote, so in that respect I support the amendment. taken so long and where the snags have been encountered? The report has obviously been discussed between the three The President: Now, hon. members, we have before departments and one wonders why it has not been accepted us Mr Singer's proposal to adjourn debate. Standing order in its entirety because certainly the description by the Chief 3.27 applies: five-minute contributions maximum and we Minister just now does not mention many of the are debating not the issue but why it should or should not recommendations and certainly I ask why it has not been be adjoumed. accepted in its entirety, especially as all the interested and professional bodies were consulted. Mr Delaney: Very briefly, Mr President, every port I understand that of the 14 recommendations in this upon which government policy is based is put in front, a expensive repon only three received the mutual agreement decision is put in front of this hon. Court. I think it is of tbe three departments and this was at officer level and beholden on somebody to make sure that the members who not at political level. I am not aware of the political vote on it see it. members of the three departments involved receiving a I for one would like to know what are the copy of this report and discussing it at the department recommendations which were rejected and I would like to meetings and I am sure that no member of this hon. Court know from the Chief Minister - obviously I take it for has received a copy ofthe report and has been able to study granted that he has seen the report - that he will tell me it, ask questions and then come to their own conclusions, why it is that we are putting this through and why some of that is, to decide if the Chief Minister's recommendations the other things that have been rejected were actually to us today are a minimal compromise or not. It might rejected. Until that time I certainly want to know more well be that hon. members would come to the conclusion before I will vote on it. that, having seen the report, it should be accepted in its entirety or it could be to the other extreme that it should Mr Gelling: If I may speak to the adjournment, Mr not be accepted at all. President, to say I am rather surprised is putting it bluntly. I believe that it is unacceptable to ask this Court to accept I am surprised when I get information that the three a change whilst having made a decision not to circulate a departments of government have agreed that this is a way copy of the report to each member to study. We may well forward, then I find two members of one of the departments get the response that whoever wished to see a copy could are the proposer and the seconder of the adjoumment. have asked for one. Well, you cannot ask for something that you do not know exists. Mrs Crowe: They should not be in the depaftment, It appears to me that this attempt today to elicit approval should they? of only three of the recommendations, one of which is a commencement date, could be an attempt to ignore the Mr Delaney: Hear, hear. remainder of the recommendations and as this involves transferring overall control of a service to the DHSS, we Mr Gelling: I begin to wonder what department need to know why that division had not accepted all the agreement means. If I am told that it is only officers that recommendations or why the other departments involved have agreed, I have been misled by being told that the have refused to ratify them. departments have agreed. I would hope that hon. members would not vote blindly So the only part of this that I understood was a problem to support a resolution on a report that they have not seen was a conflict of interest which I was prepared to be able but will support my amendment that this item is adjourned to sum up at the end by trying to show members that there for two months for each member to receive a copy and is not a conflict of interest, but the hon. mover of the that perhaps a briefing should be arranged for all members. adjournment has said that there is a report which members The DHSS,I must say, are usually very good at arranging have not seen. Well, I can assure the hon. member I have briefings and if one could be arranged, say, at a lunchtime not seen the report either, but I am going on the three on a day that the Keys and the Legislative Council were departments of government have come forward with an meeting and officers of the departments could be present, agreed position which certainly appeared sensible and I then a good attendance would be possible, and I would cannot understand the move for an adjournment. suggest that this is a way forward to get the right decision on a major shift in government policy. Thank you, Mr Mrs Crowe: Now you know how I feel. President. Mr Lowey: I have a quite remarkable speech that the Mr Henderson: I beg to second the amendment, Mr Chief Minister does not know what the departments have President, and in doing so I can wholeheartedly support agreed and the back-up. It is a sad reflection on joined-up the hon. member, Mr Singer's, intentions here. This seems government. the right and proper \ryay to progress this important issue My only thing where I am inclined to agree with the and I think a delay for two months is not that long adjournment is if the facts, which have not been disputed

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Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, as the member for Health, the issue is basically this is just changing the anomaly that should have been transferred over when the medical officer of health was transferred over. I think it is important that we do have some sort of accountability to somebody instead of having the medicines officer left out on a limb and in the light of a 14-month delay since this report was with another department with no role or bosses to say. It produced, then I think it would be wise perhaps for a two- was originally part of the medical offilcer of health to be in month delay on this occasion. the Department Of Local Government and the Environment. He was transferred over, this has been Mr Gilbey: Mr President, the Department of Local transferred over, so the fact is that that is what is happening. Government had this matter on their departmental meeting I cannot understand what the confusion is because this has been going on for at least 18 months, and I have been aware for a long time that this was going to happen. It was a matter of trying to make some sense out of the system at the present time because when they transferred part of the functions over they did not transfer the other part over, and I think it is important that this important facility has some accountability to the medical officer for health in my opinion. Health and Social Security should consider any otherpoints that Mr Cheyne made as to whether they are suitable to be The President: Reply, hon. member for Ramsey. taken up or not. So I that the position is perfectly clear: this is a believe Mr Singer: Thank you, Mr President. It is not a case of logical transfer of resp whether it is right or wrong to be doing this. The fact is department. another I that this is an order which cannot be amended. Mr Cheyne's supporting it in no way comments cannot be amended. It has either got to be which can be conside accepted, this report, or rejected. Department of Health and Social Security and therefore I Now, the report makes recommendations on major hope that hon. members will go ahead and agree to this policy changes and this government, and I believe because very simple transfer of responsibility. it is major that the members are entitled to see that report has been accepted and what has not been Mrs Christian: Mr President, I would support the to see what accepted before they vote. I believe it is as simple as that. remarks of the hon. member who has just resumed his seat know the background and have a full in the sense that we have here one element of agreement They need to by the three departments concerned which can be understanding and the ramifications of the report because power progressed. there is a major change of here, and therefore I would ask that this be deferred for two months so that members decided themselves Mrs Crowe: Yes. can see the report and then they can whether they feel that it is right or whether there are Mrs Christian: I find it diffrcult to accept that where questions to be asked, or not, and therefore this is not an departments seek to have independent reviews on any issue, attempt to delay it, because I do not object to the decision somehow they should be all circulated to all members of to move it to the DHSS. That is not why I am moving this this hon. Court. I think we would be absolutely inundated resolution and let me make that quite clear - from other departments with their work. In terms of the wish to adjourn, I am not at all clear Mrs Crowe: Why is it? from what the hon. member for Ramsey has said precisely what his concerns are, save to say that there are some issues Mr Singer: - but there are other matters which do need which have not been agreed by all three departments. Now, members' consideration and therefore I would move the whether or not all members of this Court having sight of amendment as printed. the report and seeing what they are will make any difference to the determination of these issues by those The President: Hon. members, I will now put the three departments I do not know, but all I would ask is that adjournment resolution to the Court. Will those in favour this is straightfoward, it is agreed by the three parties please say aye; against, no. The noes have it. concerned the arrangements are in place, subject to the agreement of the Court, for the transfer to take place from A div is ion w as c all e d fo r and v o t in g re s ult e d as fo Il ow s : the beginning of next year and I would ask hon. members to support that. If after that there is some question of In the Keys - whether or not the Court wants to be informed about any other aspects of the report, well that is for members to For: Mr Henderson, Mrs Hannan and Mr Singer -3 consider, I think, when they decide how to vote on this issue, but I would ask the Court to support this element of Against: Messrs Gilbey, Cannan, Quine, Rodan, North, it which has the concurrence of all three departments. SirMilesWalker Mrs Crowe, Messrs Brown, Houghton,

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Duggan, Braidwood, Mrs Cannell, Messrs Downie, will know that all the obligations enshrined under the Kaiian, Cannell, Gelling and the Speaker - 17 keeping of pharmaceuticals and drugs on farms are dealt with by the Department of Local Government and the The Speaker: MrPresident, the motion for adjournment Environment through their health and safety inspectorate. fails with 17 votes cast against and 3 votes cast for. So as far as we are concerned it makes sense to do this, it is a very minor transfer and I hope that common sense In the Council - will prevail and this Court will support this motion that is before us today. Thank you, Mr President. For: Messrs I'owey, Waft, Dr Mann and Mr Delaney - 4 Mr Singer: Mr President, this Cheyne report, which I Against: The Lord Bishop, Messrs Kniveton, Rødcliffe, referred to, the recommendations from which this transfer Mrs Christian and Mr Crowe - 5 of function order arises, as I said, I believe, should have all been seen by hon. members, and I still believe that, and The President: In the Council 4 votes have been cast out of the 14 recommendations it has been agreed that the in favour of the adjournment resolution, 5 votes against' power to issue product and manufacturing licences should That resolution fails to carry. We now return to item 6 on be removed. That is a recommendation that is sensible. It the order paper and the debate on that issue continues. The has been agreed that the function relating to the Medicines hon. Mr Delaney. Act, the Misuse of Drugs Act and the poisons order and the role of the medicines inspector should be transferred Mr Delaney: Thank you, Mr President. In brief again I to the DHSS, and that is not in principle a move to be just want a reassurance from the Chief Minister to the opposed. Also the final point that was agreed was the day members of this Court, instead of voting piecemeal on bits on which the order should be effective. of report that come through, that we will get a chance to The questions start to arise as to how the control of the debaie the full report, its implications in the whole to do pharmaceutical functions will be carried out after transfer with the Isle of Man Govemment and its people and I would and this is where the DHSS sledgehammer comes into play. like that assurance from the mover. Whereas now the chief medical officer who is within the DHSS has an independent function as regulator regarding The President: We are debating the order, hon. medical practitioners, whilst the primary healthcare members, bear that in mind. Hon. member. manager, deals with health provision as far as it is envisaged for pharmacy the primary health care manager who is in Mr Downie: Thank you. Mr President, I have no middle management, will be responsible for the healthcare problem whatsoever in supporting provision, the monitoring of services and for disciplinary us today. In my opinion it is one matters. The accepted model is that the professional body common sense to a problem. At th is the disciplinary body on the Island. The medicines with regard to medicines is spread over three different inspector does this on behalf of the Pharmaceutical Society departments and in some areas it is very technical and in branch. my opinion it would be a complete and utter waste of These changes do not separate the disciplinary function, resources if the three different departments involved in and the primary healthcare manager, as I see it, becomes drugs and medicines were having to employ separate judge, jury and hangman. and in a health service this is expertise. (Mrs Crowe: Hear, hear.) hardly a health attitude. It demonstrates once again the Now, the Department ofAgriculture and Fisheries' role department's intention to maintain a complete stranglehold in this issue is really fairly small and what has happened on its functions which can exclude the professionals and over a number of years and the responsibilities that the with the proposed disbanding of the various medical department had have been undertaken by Mr Morrison of committees in the new NHS Bill this can eliminate the DoLGE who has visited the different outlets for levelling of any criticism at the department. We have seen pharmaceutical and veterinary medicines and has in fact this demonstrated over the last few months and only last been responsible really through DAI]F for the wellbeing month we had confirmation that the long-standing medical and overseeing of the system. Now, when this issue came advisory body was to be disbanded under the new NHS before DAFF it made perfect sense in our opinion to Bill to be replaced by some airy-fairy consultative group - support the transfer of the functions to the DHSS who have the expertise and all of the system can be overseen by the Mrs Crowe: It is not airy-fairy. medical officer of health who is responsible for the wellbeing of the whole of this operation. Mr Singer: - which is totally unacceptable, as it destroys Now, as far as I am concerned, hon. members, I think any independent comment and criticism and is so this is a simple matter, it is one that a little bit of common fragmented as to have no cohesive aim. This is somewhat sense must be applied to, and I know that within the DHSS of divide and conquer. they have already looked at a system where there are quite There is mention in the executive summary of the clear lines of communication and lines of management so Cheyne report that the English pharmaceutical inspector that the situation will not arise where the department will could be brought across to the Island to inspect the jf actually be gamekeeper and poacher, and those of you who pharmacies here, and I am surprised this is suppq4ed by are aware of what is happening in the agriculture world the hon. member with responsibility forHealth, Mr Karran.

Transfer of Functions (Medicines Etc.) Order 1999 -Approved TYNWALD COURT TUESDAY EMBER I999 T243

to remain indePendent. The President: You say yes, ma'am. Tell me under tor who can do the job as standing orders where you are entitled to an internal report. inspector does visit the Britain headquarters, as Mrs Crowe: I was agreeing with you, sir. Yes, I was d r. The maj ow that the agreeing with you. (Laughter) p is a quali whilst the þ the post w we make it Mr Lowey: I bet you weret (Laughter) q wedon veupour independence on Mr Delaney: It must be Christmas! (Laughter) This point is a subject has been handled deliberat ot gain too much Dr Mann: Mr President, I rise not to actually oppose attention, Howev to be decided bY the order but I can understand how difficult it is for officers, as there are major policy shifts involved and members of this Court to actually understand originally questions to be answered, panicularly why the full report why some of these functions were not placed with the has not been accepted, why hon. members in this Court Department of Health and Social Security or as it was, and the consultees have not even seen the report, and why because it was in the late seventies when this was set up. there is this power shift to the primary care manager to We had a completely different set of circumstances. It was make him all-powerful in pharmacy matters to the possible deliberately put outside the Department of Health at the exclusion of fairness and natural justice. time and did contain within it an Advisory Council on the In his summing up I hope the Chief Minister can give Misuse of Drugs. The main drug problem at that time was an assurance as to the continued independence of the prescribable drugs and it was very necessary for a structure pharmaceutical inspector within the DHSS that the to be created actually outside the department and to monitor responsibility of the position will be maintained and the the situation with the misuse. It is only one of the main incumbent's independence as regarding inspection of functions but it was one of the main functions to monitor premises and legal and ethical advice will not be the misuse of prescribable drugs. It did contain, as the hon. ðompromised by actions of other sections of the member for Ramsey has so correctly stated, a means of department. Thank you. checking up on pharmacies and other outlets throughout the Island and it did include, as the hon. minister has The President: The hon. member for Peel caught my referred to, veterinary medicines as well. eye. Mrs Hannan: A point of order, Eaghtyrane. Again we Mrs Hannan: Yes, I wish to refer, as part of my are being refened to this report. submission, to using papers that the Court has no access to, and I cannot find the minute but - Dr Mann: No, I am not referring to the report, I am referring to the legislation that existed in the seventies. Mr Downie: Standing order 3.23(7). The President: Proceed, sir. Mrs Hannan: Right. The Court does not have access to these papers. We have not seen these papers which are Dr Mann: The current situation is somewhat different. being refened to by the member for Ramsey and that is The current drug problem that exists is mainly artificially why t voted for an adjournment, because papers are being created drugs which are not part of the ordinary drug out date. referred to which we in this Court have no access to which controls, and this structure has largely become of the relate to this motion before the Court, and I know there Now, in proposing this move I can see change of to be entirely understandable and certainly would be criticism if I was the ministerbringing forward a responsibility I would not oppose it, but having said that, it does need to motion such as this which referred to a report that the Court be looked at very carefully to ensure that professional had not seen. I express concern there and that is why I groups such as pharmacies are treated correctly. The voted for an adjournment, because a report has been Department of Health must look at this transfer of power referred to which this Court has not seen, we are not privy sensitively to ensure that they do not appear to be both the to the background ofthe transfer ofpowers, and that does regulator and the provider of the service. Now, I think what genuinely me, Eaghtyrane, because I feel that to concern the hon. member for Ramsey is saying is just stop and as this, whether we agree with it or make a decision such make sure that there is a sensitive approach. Now, I am us to make not, we should have the information in front of sure that the Department of Health itself would not have that decision. assumed this transfer unless it was going to look at this in the correct way. I think what the hon. member needs is The President: Hon. members, we are, I think, getting some assurance that this is going to take place. into an unusual situation here with members debating the report which in fact has been an internal report, to which, Mrs Christian: Mr President, I think that the hon. as far as I know, the Court has no entitlement. member for Ramsey has launched into an attack on something which is not yet formulated in detail. He has, Mrs Crowe: Yes. specifically this morning, referred to the new NHS Bill

Transfer of Functions (Medicines Etc.) Order 1999 - Approved T244 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, I4th DECEMBER I999 and what this will do in terms of the medical advisory of Ministers in 1995, their concerns with regard to this structure which will be undermined and useless and all particular position, and I think it is this, whether it is the rest of it. lffell, I would refute that entirely. (Mrs perception or otherwise, and I think it has been made quite Crowe: Hear, hear.) The medical advisory body may be clear by two hon. members that that is perhaps what is concerned that there are some changes coming about, but worrying hon. members, the perception. I can say this, that there will be one change and that will Now, the actual inspector remains the same person, he be to have more lay people involved in that particularbody just moves from DoLGE to the DHSS, but as already been (Mr Karran: Hear, hear.), and there will be no question said by the Minister for Health, in fact it is the DHSS that of there being changes which will make it somehow has had the responsibility of looking at the complaints even ineffective, as-the hon. member has indicated, and he is at this time. So really all you have got is the inspector using the vehicle of this order, it seems to me, to raise moving from DoLGE to the DHSS. extraneous matters relating to the NHS Bill. Now, I specifically, after the hon. member had raised Now, in so far as this particular order is concerned' this at our summary of proceedings, looked into this community pharmacists are external providers, they are question because it was raised with me that it might very not direct employees of the DHSS, they provide services well be seen as a conflict. Now, I have been assured that to us, and in this order the medicines inspector has powers that will not be the case. We are dealing here with the to inspect community pharmacies for certain matters. The control oi the security of, the register of, in other words DHSS at the moment have the role of inspecting complaints the way in which people look after drugs within a against community pharmacists and I think that the transfer pharmacy, and of course that is what the inspector will be we are talking about here strengthens the position rather reporting on. than anything else. So what I would say is this, that there could very well Now, the hon, member for Ramsey has referred to the be other orders that will follow which have come from the question of whether or not we should use English review that has taken place, but today we have in front of pharmaceutical inspectors and so on and so forth. I think us an order on some of the recommendations and I would these matters, as we develop the changes in relation to the ask hon. members to take it on board that there will not be new NHS Bill, are all matters which have got to be debated a conflict and that it will continue, I would suggest, in a in terms of the new regulations. Any regulations will come better way than it has in the past, because the anomaly forward to this Court and will have to have Tynwald was actually seen in the early days but it has taken quite a approval and so I would stress that there are not things long time to come to fruition and come before the Court. which can be done in relation to the new NHS Bill which So I would ask hon. members to not oppose this order will not be coming before this hon. Court. But I do feel but to vote for the order to put in place the transfer ofthe that there is a danger of mixing this issue up with matters inspector to DHSS which will give it, I would suggest, a which will be dealt with under a different piece of much betterposition and I do not see the conflict of interest Iegislation. that perhaps some members might have seen, and therefore I move item number 6, Mr President, on our order paper Mrs Crowe: Mr President,I would fully support what today that we give that approval, sir. the minister has just said. This order is purely and simply an amalgamation of sensible ideas from The President: Hon. members, I will now put the It is a progression, a way forward, and resolution set out at item.6 on the order paper. Will those simply what it is. We have led off in all in favour please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. This has been thoroughly discus The ayes have it. departments. It is a matter of where the Inspector of Medicines should be best placed, and I would suggest that we get on with deliberating just this order before us which Draft European Communities (Indonesia is the Transfer of Functions (Medicines Etc.) Order 1999. Sanctions) (Application) Order Thank you, Mr President. 1999 -Approved Mr Cannan: That is right! The President: Item 7, Chief Minister. Mr North: Quite right. Mr Gelling: Yes, Mr President, I beg to move: The President: Reply, sir. That the draft European Communities (lnàonesia Mr Gelling: Yes, thank you, Mr President. I think Sanctions) (Applications) Order 1999 be approved. basically the Minister for Health has answered the question 1999 the Council of the European that was raised, and first of all I will not refer to any report On llth October regulation EC number 2158 because the order before us today is for a specific situation Union adopted Council and whether it emanates from a report or otherwise it is concerning a ban on the supply to Indonesia of equipment the order we have before us that we are considering. which might be used for internal repression or terrorism. Now, the situation is quite clear, that it was the The regulation was adopted in reaction to the violation of Department ofAgriculture that raised this with the Council human rights that had taken place in East Timor following

Draft European Communities (Indonesia Sanctions) (Application) Order 1999 -Approved TYNWALD COURT TUESDAY, I4th DECEMBER 1999 T245 the recent elections there. In order to prevent the possibility European Communities (Indonesia of the Sanctions) (Application) Order 1,999 - itisn Debate Concluded - MotÍon Carried under 1973. The President: Hon. members, we resume our my name at item number 7, sir. consideration ofitem 7 on the order paper. I call upon the hon. member for Peel. Mr Waft: Mr President, I would like to heartily second this motion. It is a little bit of talk about closing the stable Mrs Hannan: Thank you, Eaghtyrane. I rise to support (Mr Delaney: Hear, hear') It was in door in this instance. the comments made by the hon. member of the Legislative Council. All of the points that he raised are apt in this particular case and I just hope that if this eve_r happened to us we would not have to wait 25 years before sanctions were brought by whether it was the Isle of Man, whether it was the UK or whether it was the European Union before they get relieffrom their oppression from and by Indonesia. decides that it is newsworthy. It is an absolute disgrace to the whole of the world,I think, as we all know, that arms dealers, after The trouble is, what happened there. What happened there for the 25 years wars, death and destruction of the innocent, causing their and also once they had entered into what was the so-called thing in some other are able to walk away and do the same democratic decision of a referendum and how they were left to suffer then in the way that they did. So I am glad that this has been brought in but it is, like the member for Council has said, a little bit little and it is much too late'

Mr Gelling: Mr President, I certainly listened to the must begin somewhere. hon. member for Peel and for the Council and take on board that the United We must not lose sight of the fact are saying, but ofcourse the international affairs policy what they Kingdom acts on ourbehalf with regard to its foreign of the Island abroad are controlled or, should I say, making them aware of our concems when and we should be represented by the United Kingdom, but certainly I will the second largest arms we have them. Britain is rated as coìtinue at every opportunity to put this forward to them the world after the United States, just ahead of exporter in because it was the very same as we continued to question 150,000 jobs in the UK are France and Russia. About the Indonesian air crew using Ronaldsway, and it is only trade, directly or indirectly, and dependent on the arms in September of this year that they finally were able to a strong political lobby. BritishAerospace is the they have state ihat their current position was that no East Temor group the third largest in the largest arrns in the UK and pilots were being trained and that would be the situation world. ior the forseeable future. So we are certainly keeping them than 40 Hawk trainer jets to Britain has supplied more informed of our position but in this particular case at item the eighties. There are embargoes Indonesia since early 7, I move that this particular order be approved, sir. on at least l8 countries, includingAngola, kaq, Yugoslavia, Rwanda, Bosnia and the rest. Lord Robertson, in his The President: Hon. members, I will now put the defended arms position as the UK Defence Secretary, has resolution set out at item 7 on the order paper. Will those iales to Indonesia, saying there is no direct connection in favour please say aye; against, no' The ayes have it. arms between the violence in East Timor and the British The ayes have it. sales to Indonesia. Why then do we have this motion before us nto this movebY Public oPinion uman rights organisations have an Regeneration be the UK arms sales to Indonesia, Ramsey Harbour - but it is the only the power of independent investigative Expenditure Approved journalists and the media which will make the UK Govemment stick to an ethical foreign policy, and as I The President: Now, in keeping with the Court's have said in the past, we must make representation in the decision, we consider item 5 on the order paper and I call future when we feel necsssary, earlier sooner than later. upon the Minister for Local Government and the Mr President, I support the motion. Environment.

The President: Hon. members, I am aware of the Mr Gilbey: Mr President,I beg to move: portrayal in respect of item 5 that is to take place upstairs ãnd in consequence of a debate imminent on this particular That þnwald, høving authorised the Department issue I am going to adjourn now and the adjournment will of Local Government and the Environment to Srant an be until 2.30. exclusive option to Dean and Dyball Developments Limited, now approves of the said department - The Court adiourned at 1.07 p.m. (a) committing expenditure not exceeding

European Communities (Indonesia Sanctions) (Application) Order 1999 - Debate Concluded - Motion Carried Ramsey Harbour Regeneration - Expenditure Approved T246 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, I4th DECEMBER 1999

f 1,200,000 on provision of financial and Dyball, secured by a performance bond and a charge assistance to Dean andDyball Developments over the marina lease and the commercial sections. Limitedtowards the development of amarina The option agreement has been drafted and sets out the of each party during the facility and associated infrastructure; and terms goveming the obligations option period. It is a very complex legal document which (b) making the provision of a guarantee in includes a marina lease, 125-year lease of the Ramsey respect of a loanfacility to Dean and Dyball Harbour area required for the construction and operation Developments Limited for a sum not of the proposed marina coming into effect if and when the exceeding f.4,200,000for a maximum period option is exercised by Dean and Dyball; a residential of four years after the grant of the marina licence to enable Dean and Dyball to construct the lease. residential development; a commercial licence to enable Dean and Dyball to construct the commercial and leisure First of all I should like to thank those members who elements of the project; a principles plan showing the kindly came along to the presentation. I quite understand concept of the whole development. This plan follows that a number could not come because of other substantially the presentation given by the developer to commitments. To those who did come I would like to hon. members prior to the 1998 Tynwald resolution. apologise that the standard of the lunch was not all it should A principles document - this is the printed form of the have been but I hope they will notjudge the proceedings presentati by the lunch (Laughter) - plans and amendme Mr Henderson: What lunch? and Industry permitting secondary access across Ramsey Shipyard whilst the marina lease is in place. Mr Gilbey: - but rather by the standard of the These legal documents are now nearingfinalisation and, presentation and the merits of the scheme. subject to resolving a small number of technical matters, Having said that, if I could remind this hon. Court that it is intended that the option agreement should be signed in January lgg8Tynwald gave approval fortheDepartment as soon as possible, and here I would like to pay tribute to of Local Government and the Environment to grant an our advocate, Mrs Jackie Karran, (Mr Houghton: Hear, exclusive option to Dean and Dyball Developments hear.) who has done a vast amount of work on this Limited for a period of three years on terms satisfactory to extraordinarily complicated situation. It is complicated and departments to progress the Ramsey Harbour regeneration it is also new to the Isle of Man in that we have not had scheme - and for ease of reference I shall refer to the such experience of joint private enterprise/govemment company in future as Dean and Dyball. Following this ventures of this kind in the past. approval, the Department of Local Government, in In formulating the legal agreements, the Department of conjunction with representatives of Ramsey Town Local Government has been careful to consider the Commissioners, the Department of Transport, the Treasury concerns ofthe existing local boat owners and the shipyard and the Department of Trade and Industry has endeavoured operator. For the first five-year period of operation the boat to prepare legal documentation that would be satisfactory owners will be entitled to berth in the marina at to all parties prior to entering into the option agreement concessionary rates which have been negotiated on behalf with Dean and Dyball. The contents of the scheme have of the recently formed Isle of Man Small Crafts and Boat not altered from those outlined by my predecessor in Owners Association with Dean and Dyball. Mooring January 1998. However, it may be helpful to hon. members charges during the marina construction will equate to the if I were to summarise the main elements. current harbour dues. The responsibility for regulating The scheme comprises the construction of a water harbour activities will remain with the Department of retention facility to provide a 25 4-bet th m arin a embracing Transport. the east and west harbour basins; the provision of an area the import reclaimed from the beach adjacent to the old Talk of the be constru Town site for boat storage, car parking and general swing bridge to maximise access for pedestrians from Department of Transport use; a housing development North Ramsey, particularly the residential, commercial and containing 120 units; and a mixed commercial and leisure leisure elements of the regeneration project. facility. The project is essentially a public/private The purpose of the motion before this hon. Court today partnership and will require government and the is to obtain specific approval for the financial implications óommissioners to make land available, some on a freehold which remain the same as stated in January 1998, when basis and the remainder on leasehold. Should the project the Department of Local Govemment was authorised to not proceed to completion, the land would revert back to grant the exclusive option to Dean and Dyball. However,I the government and the commissioners as appropriate. can absolutely assure hon. members that the department As was indicated to hon. members in January 1998, the will ensure that all parties are satisfied with the legal scheme is dependent upon financial assistance being given documents and that all matters have been satisfactorily to Dean and Dyball by way of an infrastructure addressed before executing the option agreement. development grant amounting to f 1.2 million to be released This is an extremely important project for the much on a staged basis. The government will also guarantee a needed regeneration of the Ramsey Harbour area. Though loan facility of up to f4.2 million to be taken out by Dean the negotiations and emerging legal documents have been

Ramsey Harbour Regeneration - Expenditure Approved TYNWALD COURT TUESDA I4th DECEMBER I999 T247 the negotiations and emerging legal documents have been DoLGE advocate certainly stated at the meeting an hour very complex involving many parties, the department or so ago that the matters relevant to DoT should be cleared believes substantial progress has been made in bringing by mid-January 2000, so this would hopefully finally the documents to a stage of virtual completion. That being resolve the last of the problems and will give confidence the case, the department believes that specific Tynwald not only to this hon. Court and Dean and Dyball but also approval should be given to the financial elements in order to Ramsey Commissioners and the people of Ramsey that to give confidence to Dean and Dyball to progress to the there are now no major obstacles in the way and that the next important stage of market research and carry out an feasibility study can be commenced. piece jigsaw assessment of commercial liability. I am pleased to say This project is a major in the of assuring that throughout the difficult negotiations Dean and Dyball the future of Ramsey as a viable business centre and a have remained committed to the project and have vjbrant community. we have waited too many years with take project confirmed their desire to carry out the scheme, which will government failings to this forward, but I believe now that we have a Tynwald Court that recognises have a positive and beneficial economic impact on the north the need to ensure that Ramsey is at a crossroads and that of the Island and indeed, I would hope, on the Island as a the town should now become vibrant, as I have said, and whole. Mr President, I beg to move. not merely become a dormitary area for Douglas. Mr Houghton: Mr President, I rise to second this Houghton: Hear, hear. motion by my minister today. I fully support everything Mr that he has said this afternoon. May I also thank all those Mrs Crowe: What about Port St Mary then? hon. members who attended the presentation. It was a very interesting presentation and I concur with the minister in Mr Singer: V/e know clearly the major problems facing his comments about the work done to date by Mrs Karran Douglas with too much traffic and the lack of general space in this extremely complex issue. I would also like to put and too many jobs for too few people. Therefore the on record too my appreciation to and also my observation regeneration of Ramsey will be good for the north but also of the absolute commitment by Dean and Dyball thus far for the whole of the Island. and so so saying that Mr Hirst is here today in much by It must be said that not everyone in Ramsey is ecstatic gallery just to show the the distinguished strangers' about the development and they do need reassurances, and absolute commitment that Dean and Dyball do in fact have I did attend an important meeting between the town for this venture. just commissioners, Dean and Dyball and the present users of But this is a regeneration of Ramsey, not the the harbour, and I was pleased to hear the attitude of the provision of a marina. As the minister has already stressed, developer in recognising the rights of the current harbour this is something that will have a knock-on effect to users and assuring them that they would be found mooring businesses in the whole of the north of the Island and it is facilities and that these would not become unaffordable very badly needed. Concerns forexistingboat owners have after the first few years. Basically, only those who wish to been well provided for. There has been an enormous use the full marina facilities would be expected to pay full amount of consultation thus far. There will be more with marina fees, and certainly the owners of the small craft them. The shipyard operator considers this himself as a recognised that change is coming and they were pragmatic great opportunity, not a threat, so that has been thwarted in their views. also, but it is also believed that this will be the first of The proposed boat-park and car park outside the marina more marinas to come, hopefully in the near future, more basin will be extremely useful, but it has to be remembered sooner than later, to complement the first one which that possibly 50 per cent of the boats presently using the hopefully is in Ramsey as soon as possible. Thank you. harbour will not be suitable for that park and will need to be accommodated within the water retention area. Mr Singer: Mr President, of course I am delighted that The access to the facility by the present users will be a this item is back on our agenda and I do hope that this hon. little bit more restricted but I sincerely believe that the Court re-endorses their support for the Ramsey goodwill shown will make the compromises acceptable to regeneration scheme. I would like to take this opportunity, both sides. The promise of continuing dialogue with the whilst I am on my feet, first of all to thank the previous present harbour users is a good step towards understanding minister, the hon. member for Ayre, for the way that he and trust. followed this project and also the present minister for Marina developments in this Island are important pushing this item along. It has, in my opinion, been held because they will contribute to the Island's economic up for too long and I am grateful for the dedication and development. I should say here that I do support the tenacity of Mr Paul Slinger (Messrs Houghton and development of a marina in Port St Mary - Gilbey: Hear, hear.), who took over the reins on behalf of DoLGE and it is certainly his dedication and tenacit¡ as I Mrs Crowe: Thank you. have said, that has ensured the continuing advance of this project. Mr Singer: I do not see this - This motion does not mean that everything is now completely straightforward and that Dean and Dyball can The President: Hon. members, we have enough proceed immediately with theirfeasibility study. There are business to get through without spreading the marina issue still matters that are unsettled, as we have heard; the around the Island.

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Mr Singer: Can I say, Mr President - ask that the Council of Ministers and particularly the Minister for Treasury should look at the situation of The President: Stay with Ramsey and the resolution, possibly doing something, as we have done successfully str, in other small areas on the Island - and I know you are going to give me the point back that the Isle of Man is a low-tax area, but we believe that things like Ramsey or anywhere else, without getting into Port Erin - it would be of benefit if some financial attraction be given to this development so that the Island and the marina will flourish. The community in Ramsey, particularly - this will be the all important to the Island. kicking-offpoint, we believe, from looking at the research I wbuld ask hon. members to give their full backing to that we have done which indicates to us that the spread of this resolution. I sincerely hope that great effort will be the Island's other industries will occur then in Ramsey, made to focus on ensuring a speedy advancement of the and this may be the kick-offpoint. But they will need some seed com planted so that the harvest that you all hope to reap will be there for the future, and that unfortunately or fortunately has to be done through some sort of tax concessions or something of that nature for the development to succeed. That is our belief and we wish you well and we will hold up both hands for it if we have to.

Mrs Crowe: Mr President, I rise to support the Mr Bell: Mr President, I think already the feeling of economic regeneration of Ramsey despite the fact that this this hon. Court is one of support for this project and I would government clearly ignored all the facts that showed that like also to add my personal thanks to the minister and his Port St Mary - predecessor and those who have worked to achieve this resolution coming forward today. Mr Singer: Mr President! It has been a long haul; there is no question about that. It is now almost exactly two years since we had a similar Mrs Crowe: - should be the place for the first resolution on this floor of the Court, and it has taken two the legal devel opment ( I nterj e ctions ) years and we have stil negotiations to put the c erY much The President: I am afraid I am not going to respond that we learn from that ct \ile are to the hon. member's charm on this issue and let her get inclined to develop further public/private sector away with plugging the merits of Port St Mary. Let us stay partnerships in the future, that we will have a more with the resolution, hon. members. (Members: Hear, hear.) itreamlined approach to coming to a successful conclusion. You are running wildt (Mr Delaney interiecting) We spent two years on that but we have, as I was in on the outset of this, been involved with this particular scheme Mrs Crowe: Mr President, I rise to support the housing now for some seven years and I have to take my hat off to development with water gardens that is going to take place Dean and Dyball for their tenacity at sticking to this in Ramsey. (l,aughter) (Mr Houghton: Hear, hear.) because I think there are very few private sector operators in the country that would stick Mr Delaney: Keeping away from Port St Mary and with a scheme for seven years, given the ups and downs Port Erin, the Department of Tourism particularly - I am that we have had in progressing from that starting point. sure the minister will express our good wishes to this The fact that they are still here today sitting alongside us venture, but we have identified, we have been researching and offering support forthe scheme I think speaks volumes, certain things in relation to this development and it should and I am sure it will bode well for the development itself be quite clearly understood there are two things. Building once it gets underway. a marina does not make money. It is the services and the The only request I suppose I would make in relation to areas for the general public around it that make the money. that is that it would seem to me that the economic The attraction has to be for yacht users from off the Island, conditions on the Island at the moment have never been something that they cannot get somewhere else, and if you better for such a development, particularly the demand for want an understanding of that just go and look at certain the housing aspect of it, and I am sure there will be an marinas around the Irish coast, where they have been built equal level of interest in the yachts themselves, so I would at great expense but have not done what they were expected simply make a request to Dean and Dyball that once we to do. My minister, and with my responsibility - we have already started advefising yachting in the Isle of Man, believe it, in the yachting journals, because we believe that there is a future for the Island and a return to the Island from the income generated from this venture, but we would growth goes in cycles and, whilst we are on a high at the

Ramsey Harbour Regeneration - Expenditure Approved TYNWALD COURT TUESDAY, 14th DECEMBER 1999 w49 moment, if this project is delayed unduly we may well, if can go along hand in hand, side by side, rather than one you excuse the pun, miss the tide, and we will be back to wait for the other. This Island needs more housing units. where we started off again' (Mr Delaney: Heaç hear.) We have a supply problem, and Ramsey and the nórth urgently need some form of if we are waiting for another three years or whatever time economii stimulation and I was pleased to hear this is suggested to get this project going, then we may well have missed the opportunity to develop those houses and sell them at a realistic price. I hope that this regeneration scheme goes ahead. I know it will be good forRamsey.I know we need houses. Ramsey say they will accommodate them, and there are not many in the not too distant future. It is a project which has been parts of this Island that are willing to accommodate houses at the moment. If Ramsey wants them, let them have them and do not hold them up for some reason of, 'Well, we've got to have the marina up and running first.' I hope that is not the case and I would just encourage the housing, the marina to go along in concert. I hope it happens and I wish I would just hope now that the final hurdles which we the developers and everybody else good luck. have to overcome - and I understand that it is the Several Members: Hear, hear.

Mr Henderson: Mr President, I rise in full support of the project, not surprisingly. It is a good plan and I too was at the presentation at lunchtime and found it most is a key element in the economic regeneration of Ramsey interesting. Certainly it is a long time in coming and it is itself but there will be a knock-on benefit indirectly to nice to see, hopefully, the final fruition of things. What I would say is that in progressing this - and, as I say, I do support it - on the way down the line if the consultants and the builders and whoever else are going to be involved, just be careful when they are engaging the move. I urge all hon. members to put aside their regional project and perhaps look at staging things in rather than bias and for once look at Ramsey in a positive light and trying to do the whole lot at once and then special reference give this project the support it urgently needs. to the berthing arrangements of whether they should be actually looking at the inner harbour first for a first phase Sir Miles Walker: Mr President, I am pleased to support of berths and see if the uptake is good and then progress this resolution and say that I have no problem at all in from that onwards rather then jump in straightaway. Those putting aside my bias. I have, in fact, been a supporter of are my words on that. ihe principle of this scheme for very many years, in fact Also, I am conscious of the rear end of the harbour seven years ifit is that long since it began. towards the White Bridge and the effect this may have on I would just like to remind hon. members that the the valuable salt marshes across the bridge, which are scheme in front of us today is a long way away from the renowned for their conservation value. I would just like one that was first mentioned seven years ago when it was the minister to take that on board. a local authority scheme and 'Please, government, we don't As I say, these are just words of caution, really, while want you to be involved, all we want is a contribution of the project is being progressed. As I say, I do support it some land and we will cany out this project at little or no and hope that the consultants and so on can take these small cost to government.'Well, I remember those words. Very concerns on board as they are progressing the issues, and content I was to go along with that; very content I am to also the complicated issue of the leasing arrangements go along with this today but I think it is worth reminding- which is underpinning this whole contract. Itis complicated hon. members when it is government that is accused of but very greatcare needs to be taken in pursuing that and the delay - five years' delay or whatever is insinuated by in respect of the possible selling of leases as we go down some of the comments that have been made. this line. But otherwise it looks good, as I say. I think this scheme is a good one, but I have the same The other thing is, while we are all saying, 'Yes, it is a concerns in my mind, I think, as the hon. member, the great project' and I agree it is, the housing that has been minister, the member from Ramsey. It seems to be that provided, though, is upper market housing. Now, that is now is the time to be getting on with this (Mr Delaney: nice to see in some respects, it gives a prestigious Hear, hear.). The economic environment is right. I was development, but also possibly I would like us perhaps at fortunate in being able to attend the presentation at another time to be looking at something else too. I know I lunchtime. I found it interesting and I understand the am in danger of widening the debate but I do not think it is phasing requirements - and I am using those words' But I going to solve all our problems in this area, but nonetheless would ask the departments and the developer and the it is a good project and I support it wholeheartedly. commissioners, all those involved, to see if they can find a way in which the housing and the marina development The President: Reply, minister.

Ramsey Harbour Regeneration - Expenditure Approved T250 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, I4th DECEMBER 1999

Mr Gilbey: Mr President, thank you very much. First Draft European Communities (Petroleum of all I should like to thank the hon. member of the Sanctions) (Application) Order department, Mr Houghton, for seconding and also I would 1999 -Approved like to take this opportunity to thank him for all his hard work on the project as the political member in charge of it The President: Item 8, the Chief Minister to move. all. I would like to thank Mr Singeç and I am very glad he Mr Gelling: Mr President, I beg to move: expressed his thanks to Mr Paul Slinger for his work, because all too often I think we can forget the hard work That the draft European Communities (Petroleum of the civil servants who do so much work on projects like Sanctions) (Application) Order 1999 be approved. this. I am very pleased that Mr Singer is happy with the attitude of Dean and Dyball, the existing harbour owners, Following the occupation of the Serbian province of because this is a very important point. Kosovo by an international peacekeeping force it has I am so pleased that Mrs Crowe supports the housing become necessary for the EU to amend its sanctions development, the water gardens for Ramsey. legislation to allow for those forces to be supplied with Mr Delaney is of course right in the economic points fuel. Previous EU legislation has imposed a blanket ban he made, and I am personally very glad that the Department on the exportation of petroleum and petroleum products ofTourism are already marketing yachting and sailing from to the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, but the latest the Isle of Man. I am sure this is a very good area to start amendment EU Council regulation allows for the supply marketing. I think, before we commit ourselves to any of these products to the Kosovo province of Serbia and special tax reliefs, however, we should bear in mind the the Republic of Montenegro as well as allowing for the substantial but justified financial and other support that supply of petroleum and related products. Mr President, I the Isle of Man public sector is already providing for this beg to move item 8 on our order paper. scheme. Like the hon. member for Ramsey, Mr Bell, I am sorry Mr Brown: I beg to second and reserve my remarks. that this project has not proceeded more quickly. However, as I think is clear to everyone from what they have heard The President: I will put the resolution, hon. members, in this hon. Court and if they attended the presentation, set out at item 8 on the order paper. Will those in favour the legal drafting is extraordinarily complicated and please say aye; against no. The ayes have it. The ayes have lengthy, and this is the forerunner of public and private it. sector development on the Island on a joint basis. I personally hope that we shall see many more such schemes in the future and that they will benefit from the experience Draft European Communities (Flights gained with this one. Restrictions) (Application) Order I know that Sir Miles has supported the general scheme 1999 -Approved for seven years and I certainly agree with him that we want to progress with it as quickly as possible, and I can assure The President: Item 9, the Chief Minister. him that all those in the department will do everything they can to ensure that this is achieved. The quicker we Mr Gelling: Mr President, I beg to move: can get the option agreement signed the better and the quicker then that Dean and Dyball can work our their plans That the draft European Communities (Flights and start work again the better. Restrictions) (Application) Order 1999 be approved. I am very glad the at the hon. member for North Douglas, Mr Henderson, found the presentation useful. I Item 9 follows on from the other two, Mr President. do think that such presentations can be valuable particularly The Council of the European lJnion, in recognition of the in respect of complex schemes such as this one. I certainly changing circumstances in the Balkans, has adopted a new note his points about the salt marshes. Council regulation imposing restrictions on flights operated Finally I would like to thank all those who have between the member states of the EU and the Federal contributed and to express the hope that this resolution Republic of Yugoslavia, and the previous Council may be passed unanimously. regulations have imposed a blanket ban on flights between the EU member states and the Federal Republic of Members: Hear, hear. Yugoslavia, but the most recent instrument allows for flights to the Kosovo province of Serbia and the Republic The President: Hon. members, I will now put the of Montenegro. I beg to move item number 9, Mr President, resolution set out at item 5 on the order paper. Will those on our order paper today. in favour please say aye; against no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. Mr Brown: I beg to second and reserve my remarks.

Draft European Communities (Petroleum Sanctions) (Application) Order 1999 - Approved Draft European Communities (Flights Restrictions) (Application) Order 1999 -Approved TYNWALD COURT TUESDAY, I4Íh DECEMBER 1999 T251

The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution That the Social Securiry Legislation (Application) set out at item 9 on the order paper. tù/ill those in favour (No. I5) Order 1999 ISD No 559/99] be approved. please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. This ordercorrects an omission from the annual uprating order submitted to Tynwald in October 1997, providing for the uprating of reciprocal benefits in relation to Job 1996. It does not affect Act 1992 Seekers Allowance Regulations Social Security Administration entitlement of any individual as the provisions have (No. the (Application) (Amendment) 3) Order been applied administratively pending their application by 1999 - Social Security Contributions order. I beg to move, Mr President. and Benefits Act 1992 (Application) (Amendment) (No. 3) Order Mrs Crowe: I beg to second, Mr President. 1999 -ApProved The President: Hon. members,I will put the resolution set out at item l2 on the order paper. Will those in favour 1 I the Minister for Health The President: Item l0 and , please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes and Social Security. have it. Mrs Christian: Mr President, I beg to move:

That the Social Security Administration Act 1992 Social Security Legislation (Application) (Application) (Amendment) (No. 3) Order 1999 ISD No (No. 16) Order 1999 -Approved 557/991 be approved. The President: Item 13, the Minister for Health and That the Social Security Contibutions and Benefits Social Security. Act 1992 (Application) (Amendment) (No. 3) Order 1999 I to move: ISD No 558/99] be approved. Mrs Christian: Mr President, beg

These orders are intended to provide a more efficient That the Social Security Legislation (Application) legislative process for the annual benefits uprating. Each (No. 16) Order 1999 ISD No 560/99] be approved. year at the March sitting of the Court the department items subsidiary submits several orders and regulations to give legislative This order applies to the Island two of of the Parliament relating to the calculation effect to the uprating ofbenefits as announced in the budget legislation UK pensions.All of the matters covered by the statutory speech. The provisions contained in this and the next order of state instruments relating to this subsidiary legislation form part amends social security legislation to allow the depanment of the reciprocal agreement with the United Kingdom and to submit only one uprating order in future in respect of the extent necessary the changes have been applied Isle of Man benefits. This change will not affect the rates to administratively pending formal approval. I beg to move, and rules of the individual benefits concemed. Details have Mr President. been circulated to hon. members. I beg to move the order standing in my name. Mrs Crowe: I beg to second, Mr President.

Mrs Crowe: I beg to second and reserve my remarks, The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution Mr President. set out at item 13 on the order paper. V/ill those in favour please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes The President: Hon. members, I will first of all put the have it. resolution set out at item l0 on the orderpaper. Will those in favour please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. Pension Schemes Legislation (Application) Now, as item 1l has been dealt with, I will also put that to the Court. Will those in favour of item 1l please say (No. 5) Order 1999 -Approved aye; against no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. The President: Item 14, the Minister for Health and Social Security.

Social Security Legislation (Application) Mrs Christian: Mr President, I beg to move: (No. 15) Order 1999 -Approved Thnt the P e ns ion S che me s Le g i s lat i o n ( Ap p l ic ation ) The President: Item 12, the Minister for Health and (No. 5) Order 1999 ISD No 561/99] be approved. Social Security. This order applies to the Island two items of subsidiary Mrs Christian: Mr President, I beg to move: legislation of the United Kingdom Parliament relating to

Social Security Administration Act 1992 (Application) (Amendment) (No. 3) Order 1999 - Social Security Contributions and Benef,rts Act 1992 (Application) (Amendment) (No. 3) Order 1999 -Approved Social Security Legislation (Application) (No. 15) Order 1999 -Approved Social Security Legislation (Application) (No. 16) Order 1999 -Approved Pension Schemes Legislation (Application) (No. 5) Order 1999 -Approved T252 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, I4th DECEMBER 1999 pensions and occupational pension schemes. The in my opinion we could have been a little bit more ãmendments are of a technical nature and ensure a person's generous. If I had known other departments were doing entitlement to additional pension is not affected following these things I would have been pushing for this to be more changes made to legislation in April 1997 , and secondly progressive and help a lot more people. enables regulations relating to the rules of contracted out occupational pension schemes to have retrospective effect. Mrs Christian: This is just if someone dies. I beg to move, Mr President. The President: Reply, minister. Mrs Crowe: I beg to second, Mr President. Mrs Christian: MrPresident, I note the remarks of the The President: Hon. members,I will put the resolution hon. member. He knows full well that this scheme could set out at item 14 on the order paper. Will those in favour not accommodate what he seeks to do. This is to do with a please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes scheme which deals simply with a TV licence refunds have it. scheme. He can continue, as he well knows, to voice his view on other issues in the department where they do get an airing. (Refunds) Scheme L990 TV Licence The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution (Amendment) Schem e 1999 - Approved set out at item 15 on the order paper. Will those in favour please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes The President: Item 15, the Minister for Health and have it. Social Security.

Mrs Christian: Mr President, I beg to move: National Health Service (Isle of Man) That the TV Licence (Refunds) Scheme 1990 (General Medical and Pharmaceutical (Amendment) Scheme 1999 IGC No 42/99J be approved. Services) (Amendment) Regulations 1999 -Approved The TV Licence (Refunds) Scheme provides for certain pensioners to be able to receive a refund of their licence The President: Item 16, the Minister for Health and fee even though their entitlement to the qualifying benefit, Social Security. which is supplementary benefit, has ceased. This amendment scheme enhances that scheme to provide that Mrs Christian: Mr President, I beg to move: if a person entitled to a refund, notwithstanding cessation of supplement benefit, dies, the surviving partner will That the National Health Service (Isle of Man) continue to receive the refund. I beg to move, Mr President. (General Medical and Pharmaceutical Services) (Amendment) Regulations 1999 ISD No 6]9/991 be Mrs Crowe: I beg to second, Mr President. approved.

Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I would just like to say, whilst The regulations for which we seek approval today I support this proposal here, that with other government amend the terms on which the general medical and departments raising the rents of local authority houses, pharmaceutical services are provided under the National which will affect - Health Service. The main purpose of the regulations is to amend schedules 3 and 4 to the principal regulations. In The President: Hon. member, rents of local authority particular, Viagra, along with other drugs for the treatment houses and TV licence provisions I am not going to of erectile dysfunction, are to be included in schedule 4, reconcile. allowing them to be prescribed for patients who have cefain specified medical conditions. Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, what I am saying is that I Following extensive discussions a decision was made think that this scheme could have been a little bit more in the United Kingdom to add Vagra, along with other progressive in light of the fact that other government drugs for treatment, to schedule 4. The department has now departments are bringing in tax increases to a section of had the opportunity to consider the position in the United the community, and whilst I support this motion here at Kingdom and, after taking advice from the Chief the present time, I still have a long play as far as this whole Administrative Medical Officer and the Primary Care issue ofTV licences is concerned, that it should be based Prescribing andTherapeutic Forum and after consultation on income tax levels and not social security levels, because with the medical profession, has decided to mirror the what we are going to see here is we have seen a section, changes made in the United Kingdom. especially pensioners, who are on a fixed income who have The opportunity is also being taken to make statutory just got that little bit over social security, they have got a 5 provision for target payments in respect of cervical per cent increase in their rent, they have got a2 per cent cytology to be made to general practitioners instead of the increase in their pensions, and we have a situation where current system of item of service payments. The department

TV Licence (Refunds) Scheme 1990 (Amendment) Scheme 1999 -Approved National Health Service (Isle of Man) (General Medical and Pharmaceutical Services) (Amendment) Regulations 1999 - ApProved TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th DECEMBER 1999 T253 has circulated a memorandum on these issues to hon. But that is not the reason why I rose. My reason for which I hope has been helpful. I beg to move, rising is to do with cervical cytology, but I was hoping members, just Mr President. that maybe the minister would clarify, is this a continuation of the cytology investigations that we have Mr Karran: I beg to second and reserve my remarks. had in the past or will this be for the virus because that is a more progressive investigation and that can actually Mr Henderson: Mr President, just to prove I have been understand how the disease develops instead ofjust looking at it to see whether the disease is there or not and treating anything which has arisen beforehand. That leads on then to education and all the rest of it, hygiene and the aspects there that are extremely important. Bringing women in for investigations is one thing to the tar which is to do with cytology completely, but trying to address the underlying issues of and spec rs, because the briefing note cervical infections and disease is quite another thing I have in at part l, 'to make provision altogether, and I would hope that the Department of Health for the introduction of target payments in respect of cervical and Social Security are moving into these areas. In a way cytology. At present it is public health as opposed to treating the problem once payment for each cerv it has got to that stage, but I think setting targets and Kingdom moved from recalling women for treatment and bringing women in to in 1988' - and this is be screened is to be commended. But I am concerned about the cytology, actually what happens when this smear has been taken, and are we looking for this virus which actually causes the problem? increase. The President: Reply, minister. It is important, and this is an important area where medicine can actually be proactive rather than reactionary Mrs Christian: Yes, Mr President, I think the hon. and we can actually stop things before they start, as they member for Peel has to some extent answered the queries say. But my concern is more than that: because there seems of the hon. member Mr Henderson. Perhaps I can reiterate to be a larger uptake, an initiative which it could be read that up to date we have simply had an item of service that has induced GPs to undertake more tests, for want of payment. Now, this was an incentive to take whatever a better way of describing it, I am concemed that maybe volume of smears was felt appropriate. There was not a some eligible women may have slipped out of the net and requirement to conform to any particular screening now my concern is, if that is the case how can we bring guidelines and so there was no limit to the number of them back into the net under this new target scheme? smears or how often they were taken in the past. Since the beginning of this year the department has had Mrs Christian: Education. a specifically appointed screening implementation officer to run a department based call-and-recall system. That is Mr Henderson: That is what worries me - the hon. now in place to the extent where we can move on to this member for the department is shouting 'Education in my target payments system in the Island, and it will not be left right earhole. But having said that, if the GPs have not to the doctor to make provision for the recall and it \¡/ill been working up to the standard that they should have been not be left to the women concerned to initìate the screening or themselves; they will be called on a properly scientifically ca based basis with a proper database in place. co In terms of the question from the hon. member Mrs Iu Hannan, I think our screening programme is identical to do we pull this situation back under this new scheme, and that which applies in the United Kingdom. I am not entirely is there any way of pulling back any women who have clear, and will look into the issue for her, as to what exactly been missed and who ought not to have been missed or they are looking for in terms of the virus and so on. sent a letter of reminder or whatever? That is my concern, Certainly there is an education programme going on at the nonetheless it seems good and I support the new scheme. same time and the department does issue these leaflets in relation to cervical screening to anybody who may be called Mrs Hannan: Thank you, Eaghtyrane. I think, for such a process. following on from the comments made by the previous It altogether represents a more scientific approach to member, the targets have not been in. The targets are being the whole issue, I would suggest, and should be able to introduced, that is how I read it. Items of service are a ensure that we improve the numbers of people who are different thing to targets. Ta screened and that the screenings are carried out at a regular and they will have to do so interval on the basis which will give us optimum success they get any payments for tackling the problems within the budgetary payments understanding, and there wi that are available, and I hope that hon. members will the Department of Health and Social Security to bring support the order for both aspects of the regulations that women in to be investigated. we are dealing with.

National Health Service (Isle of Man) (General Medical and Pharmaceutical Services) (Amendment) Regulations 1999 - APProved T254 TYN}VALD COURT, TUESDAY, I4th DECEMBER I999

The President: Hon. members, I will now put the agricultural buildings and open-sided multi-storey above resolution set out at item l6 on the order paper. Will those ground car parks. I beg to move. in favour please aye; against, no. The ayes have it' The ayes have it. Mr Duggan: I beg to second, sir.

The President: I will put the resolution, hon. members, Machines (Prescribed Amounts) set out at item l8 on the order paper. Will those in favour Controlled please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes Regulations 1999 - Approved have it.

The President: Item I 7, the Minister for Home Affairs. (Amendment) Rules Mr Bell: Mr President, I beg to move: Estate Agents 1999 -Approved That the C ontro lle d M ac hine s ( P re s c ri b e d Amount s ) Regulations 1999 ISD No 621/99J be approved. The President: Item 19, the Minister for Local Govemment and the Environment. These regulations, which come into operation on lst January 2000, increase the prescribed amounts for the Mr Gilbey: Mr President,I beg to move: purposes of section 1(4) of the Gaming Amendment Act of 1984. These regulations will increase the maximum prize That the Estate Agents (Amendment) Rules 1999 payable on prize machines from f 10 to f l5 and increase ISD No 670/99] be approved. the maximum stake of the prize machine from 25p to 30p and for any other controlled machine from f I to f2.T\e The rules amend the Estate Agents Rules 1978. The gaming machine industry on the Isle of Man has requested effect of the amendment is to add the National Association the increase in the prize payable because the United of Estate Agents to the list of professional bodies which Kingdom had increased theirjackpot levels to f 15 in 1998, are recognised for the purpose ofqualifying to practice as which meant that the local machine suppliers on the Island an estate agent in the Isle of Man. The rules also update could not purchase any of the new gaming machines the references to other qualifications specified in the 1978 coming on to the market. The last increase from f8 to f,10 rules, and Mr President, I beg to move. was approved by Tynwald on 17th June 1997. I beg to move, Mr President. Mr Quine: I beg to second and reserve my remarks, slr, Mr Duggan: I beg to second, sir. Mr Cannell: Mr President, I am very conscious of the The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution need to retain a statement parallel to the terms of the set out item 17 on the order paper. Will those in favour resolution, but perhaps with welcoming the newcomers to please aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. this band I could draw attention to something which I feei is of public concern, and that is the obligation of estate agents in drawing up house leases. I am led to believe that Fire Precautions (Fixed Firefighting under section I I of the Advocates Act there is an obligation agents to actually get advocates to draw any legal Regulations 1999 on estate Systems) - Approved binding documentation and it seems to me that this is not being canied out in all cases. Item I 8, the Minister for Home Affairs. The President: I am very worried that the house rentals, which come under those sort of schemes, leases, are insufficient to cater Mr President, I beg to move: Mr Bell: for all aspects of what need to be approved agreements. In other words, they fall far short of a legally binding That the Precautions (Fixed Firefighting Fire documentation, and I hope the department will take note Systems) Regulations 1999 No 666/99] be approved. ISD of my observations on this and have a look at some of the documentation which local estate agents are putting out, These regulations, which also come into operation on not in all cases but in some, as I say, they leave very much I st January 2000, provide for the installation of sprinklers to be desired, and also give no protection whatever to the or other firefighting systems in specified new premises. people who are making the arrangements. It gives no Any shop, office, factory, workshop, school, place of public protection to the estate agents themselves and it is resort, hospital, nursing or residential home, covered car either parks or storage premises constructed after the in an area where there is a possibility of great litigation if commencement date of the regulations having any some of the terms of leases actually come before courts compartment or storey which exceeds 5,000 cubic metres for quantifying. shall be fitted with an automatic fixed hre extinguishing So it is just a small point but one I feel quite strongly system. The fire service may grant exemptions in specific about, sir, and I hope that the minister will look at this and cases and these regulations do not apply to open-sided put the notice out to the newcomers who are embraced in

Controlled Machines (Prescribed Amounts) Regulations 1999 -Approved Fire Precautions (Fixed Firefighting Systems) Regulations 1999 -Approved Estate Agents (Amendment) Rules 1999 - Approved TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th DECEMBER 1999 T255 this resolution here today and all others that they must That the Sea-Fisheries (ScalLop Fishing) abide by section l1 of theAdvocates Act and use advocates (Amendment) Bye-Laws 1999 [SD No 669/99] be to make sure these agreements are watertight. approved.

Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I have got no problems with These two items are part of the same issue which arose the order in front of us and I am happy to see more added out of my department's concern about scallop conservation to the list. I still would like to know, with there being a with amnesic shellfish poisoning leading to widespread new minister, whether, when the new ministerreviews this closure of other scallop grounds. There was a danger that piece of legislation, there is a need for this order and our territorial sea would become the focus for massive whether we should be doing away with this closed shop fishing effort. This would have been counter-productive going and just have an adequate amount of insurance for people after all our efforts towards conservation back many who operate estate agents so that they are covered for years. One of these sets of bye-laws closed the scallop litigatión. Could I also ask whether the minister could tell fishery in the three nautical mile area of the territorial sea. us,1s there any controls on the estate agents over the fees The other set received the concurrence of the Secretary of that they charge? I believe now they are going up to ltl+ to State for the Home Office to continued closure of the lt/z per cent - have they got the freedom to do whatever scallop fishery in the territorial sea until 30th November, they want as far as that is concerned? If people are My department made a case to the Home Office and I concerned about estate agents encouraging gazumping, is understand that the United Kingdom Ministry for there a way of making representation, and who to? I believe Agriculture, Fisheries and Food supported our case and that is complaint at the present time, and I believe it will the fisheries minister was prepared to support closure until be well if hon. members are aware of how they go about the end of the year. I would have liked to see continuation putting in a complaint against this very privileged section of a closure on through December until the end of the year; of the community who have got an effective closed shop, however, we did not receive concurrence to this. and if he could just tell this hon. Court, as estate agents, In my opinion it is highly regrettable that my department how much insurance cover do they need to have to be part was not made party to any discussions when the recently of the closed shop that we have with estate agents? devolved Scottish Executive was pressed by its own industry to argue for the opening of the scallop fishery in The President: Reply, minister. our territorial sea. It seems to me to be surprising, to say the least, that the Island's government was not asked to Mr Gilbey: I must say I thought this was quite non- respond to or be directly involved in discussions about controversial, adding just a new class of people to estate our own territorial sea, and this is an issue, hon. members, agents! Therefore I am afraid I have to be like Sir I am determined to address. weather has been a great Humphrey and say I cannot possibly comment on the other However, at least the since the start of this month, and in addition points because I have not the slightest idea of the answers. conservator an area roughly equivalent to our territorial sea has now (Laughter) I had not looked up the whole Estate Agents opened for fishing off the south-west coast of Scotland, so Bill just because of this small change, but I will obtain the this at least answers some of our concerns about ans\¡/ers and circulate them to thc two hon. members displacement. concemed. Mr President, these byelaws reflect the situation as it was when the United Kingdom authorities accepted the The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution detailed case madeby my department for extending closure the order paper. those in favour set out at item 19 on Will of the scallop fishery. I would like to have seen it continue. please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. They ayes I would like to have had further bye-laws to bring before have it. hon. members in recognition of this Island's desire to shape an appropriate conservation policy within our own waters. Our territorial sea is now open to scallop fishing. However, Sea-Fisheries (Scallop Season) (Amendment) the background has been very, very unsatisfactory. Bye-Laws 1999 - Sea-Fisheries (Scallop I wish to rsport to hon. members that I will be attending Fishing) (Amendment) Bye-Laws an urgent meeting in London tomorrow, where the concems and interest of this Island and its fishermen will be further 1999 -Approved expanded upon with senior officers of the United Kingdom Government and, of course, my own department. Thank The President: Items 20 and 21 - I think the minister you, Mr President. I beg to move the motions standing in would like them taken together. my name.

Mr Downie: Yes, thank you, Mr President, hon. Mr Singer: May I second the proposals by the hon. members. I beg to move: minister and, in doing so, I would just briefly like to mention the excellent co-operation and support that we That the Sea-Fisheries (Scallop Season) have had from the Isle of Man fishing association. Certainly (Amendment) Bye-Laws 1999 ISD No 64]/991 be we have had many discussions with them and they have approved. shown their full support for the closure. Thank you'

Sea-Fisheries (Scallop Season) (Amendment) Bye-Laws 1999 - Sea-Fisheries (Scallop Fishing) (Amendment) Bye-Laws 1 999 - Approved T256 TYNWALD COURT TUESDAY, 14th DECEMBER 1999

Mrs Hannan: Could I just ask for clarification, three-mile limit were open. In fact they are open, and one Eaghtyrane? The minister suggested the 3-12 mile area of the reasons that the department decided to take the was open. Is the 1-3 mile territorial sea open? decision to open them was that the majority of the boats that were suffering because of poor catch record and an Mr Downie: Yes. inability to fish were the smaller vessels, the ones which normally fish in the 1-3, so we took the decision that they Mrs Hannan: I am not sure that that was made should not be disadvantaged and over the last three weeks, absolutely clear, because my understanding is that we could when the grounds have been open, the way the weather actually keep that closed if we so wished and it would has been, it has only been possible up until the last day or appear that if it is open we did not wish to keep it open, so two to actually fish within the three-mile limit, so the I would like clarification on that point. smaller boats have actually had a living and at least there will be some money in for them for Christmas and the Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, what disappoints me over this New Year period. So that is why the decision was made. is the previous administration's Uncle Tomism with the The hon. member for Onchan, Mr Karran, felt that the adjacent isle as far as the fact that we have to have the previous administration had been guilty of Uncle Tomism. concurrence ofthe Secretary ofState in the adjacent island Well, I can assure him that the present administration is that has no mandate over our territorial sea, and I find that not going to be found wanting. We have been pushing this absolutely appalling and all it comes down to is the issue for some time and I am absolutely determined to comments I have made and often ridiculed for about bring this matter to some sort of satisfactory resolution. basically the gunboat. They have the gunboats and we have As I explained last month to this Court, there is an added not, and I think that the minister should be trying to resolve complication now in the fact that since devolution there this issue. It was a scandal in the first position to allow are other parties who feel they have a say in our fishing ourselves to be drawn into trying to legitimise any bastardy matters. The advice I have been given to date is that this is over the adjacent island being able to interfere in our perhaps outwith the principles enshrined in the fisheries territorial sea. agreement and it is with that view in mind that I will be As far as I am concerned, I appreciate the minister has attending this meeting tomorrow. I am also informed that inherited the situation, but I do think that the Council of some of the other interests of the Island are up for Ministers need to be more firm. It is outrageous that we discussion as well on fishing matters and I intend to bring have a situation where we have some devolved assembly everybody up to date when I return from London tomorrow of the United Kingdom having more credence than the evening. Thank you, Mr President. democratically elected government of this Island, that has a thousand years of parliamentary activity and we have a The President: Hon. members, I propose to put these situation where we are just thrown aside, in my opinion. I two resolutions separately. First of all, those in favour of am sad that the new members in this House have inherited the resolution set out at item 20 on the order paper please previou s administrations' situ ation of compromise instead say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. of standing up and being counted and saying 'No.'We are Now I will put the resolution set out at item 2l on the now in the situation where we are at the whim and, because order paper. Will those in favour please say aye; against, of the United Kingdom Government, there are Scottish no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. MPs; if it comes to looking after Scotland's interests with the Scottish MPs' votes are looking after our legitimate interests, our interests come in the Northern Premier league, Cattle Passports (Amendment) Order 1999 - never mind the Premier League or the first or second or Marking and Cattle Records (Amendment) third division if it was in football terms. So that is the only thing that bothers me about this and Order 1999 -Approved I hope that we are going to see some backbone to try and get this nonsense stopped so that we have complete control The President: Items 22 and 23. I understand the hon. over what is ours. It was an absurdity having to pay out minister wishes to take those together as well. hundreds of thousands of pounds for what was ours and everywhere else in the British Commonwealth got it for Mr Downie: Yes, thank you, Mr President. It will be nothing. much clearer if these two items can be taken together. I beg to move: The President: Reply, minister. Thatthe Cattle Passports (Amenàment) Order 1999 Mr Downie: Thank you, Mr President. To deal with ISD No 671/99] be approved. the points raised by Mr Singer, I too would like to be associated with the remarks he made and the support and That the Marking and Cqttle Records (Amendment) encouragement that has been given to the department by Order 1999 ISD No 672/99] be approved. the Isle of Man Fisherman's Association and all the others who are involved in fishing interests in the Island. The Cattle Passports Order and the Marking and Cattle The hon. member for Peel, Mrs Hannan, sought Records Order were approved by the Court in December clarification of whether our territorial waters out to the 1997 .They introduced a bovine identification and tracing

Cattle Passports (Amendment) Order 1999 - Marking and Cattle Records (Amendment) Order 1999 -Approved TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, I4th DECEMBER 1999 T257 system in fulfilment of the Island's EU obligations in the the meat plant is not allowed to enter the food chain and wake of the BSE crisis. requires to be returned to the farm of despatch. This These orders made provisions for all cattle born on or movement requires to be licensed by the department. after l st January 1998 to be identified by two ear tags, one On behalf of the department I would like to take this in each ear, for all births to be notified and recorded by the opportunity to commend the agricultural community for department, and for the issue of a passport in respect of their co-operation in establishing and operating the and scheme. The BSE crisis brought eaõh calf born and for the passport to accompany the animal identification tracing farmers' when it moved. These measures ensured that the Island about many changes to agriculture, to incomes administration work for the farmer could continue to trade in cattle and meat, putting in place and to the increase in The Manx farmer has, to a man, a full system of traceability for each animal. The Cattle and for the department. which continue to allow us Database Order approved by the Court in November 1998 accepted their responsibilities traceability and assure customers of the added to the existing provisions by granting powers to to demonstrate health which Manx stock possesses. Mr establish the department's computer base system for clean bill of President, I beg to move the two motions standing in my recording all births, deaths and movements of cattle. name. These two orders before the Court today further update and modify the existing systems for marking and Mr Henderson: I beg to second, sir. movement of animals. The Marking and Cattle Records (Amendment) Order Mr Karran: Could the minister just clarify the position 1999 provides for a different format tag to be used from about losing our tags? We become part of the North-West l st January 2000. The United Kingdom received a - is that not the case? - under the new tagging system and derogation from the EU to use alphanumeric tags, letters is that not the case at the present time, because a number numbers as a prefix. This allowed the Island to issue and of farmers have raised that issue with me. So we become tags with the letters MN followed by the calf number. The part of the North-West but we keep the three legs on the expires on 31st December 1999 and, in derogation tags. Is that the case? I would like the minister just to clarify rest Europe, tags will consist accordance with the of that point. entirely of digits. The Island, however, wishing to be slightly different, retained the right to have the triskellion, The President: Reply, minister. the three legs, on the tag. The tag will also have a check also digit to ensure against tampering. The order will Mr Downie: Thank you. We do not, no'w or at any time, introduce some flexibility in permitting movement of an wish to be part of the North-West. The Isle of Man's animal when it loses a tag. At present, if a beast loses one traceability scheme, Cattle Passports Scheme, is one that of the two tags it cannot be moved. To recognise that an is our own. If a tag is lost on the Island we are now in a animal can lose a tag when being transported to auction position where, subject to fair weather and technology, we mart the order will permit it under such circumstances to can have a new tag issued the following day, and this has be returned to the farm of origin or sent on to the new been a problem that some farmers have had because in the farm. An animal may arrive at the meat plant without its early days it took some considerable time to get a full compliment of tags; the order makes various provisions replacement tag, but we have tidied up our system and we depending on how many tags have been lost, what sort of have overcome some of the problems that we had initially, tags were lost and whether the animal was killed before it but it is purely our own system, but the passport which is was found that a tag was missing. issued on the Island, if an animal does go to the UK or go The Cattle Passports (Amendment) Order makes it an somewhere else, makes its transportation perfectly valid, offence to tamper with a passport. The order also introduces provided the details and the passport travel with the animal. new provisions with regard to temporary calf passports. Thank you, Mr President. The temporary passports are valid for calves that are under four weeks old. They are completed by the farmer himself. The President: Hon. members, I will put first of all the These are used for calves that are intended for immediate resolution set out at item 22 onthe order paper. Will those sale or for slaughter through the department's voluntary in favour of that resolution please say aye; against, no. calf cull scheme. The temporary passport allows the calf The ayes have it. The ayes have it. to be moved without having to apply for and waiting to Turning to item 23. Will those in favour of the resolution receive a passport and without completing movement set out at item 23 please say aye; against, no. The ayes cards. The proposed amendment will provide for an extra have it. The ayes have it. movement on a temporary passport which would then permit the calf to be moved to an auction mart and, if not present movement sold, to be sent to the cull. At only one and Horticultural Improvement to the auction mart or to the cull can be made on the Farm temporary calf passport and subsequent movement could Scheme 1999 -Approved require a full passport to be obtained. The order also seeks to change responsibility for issuing The President: Item 24, the Minister for Agriculture, a licence to move an animal from the meat plant from a Fisheries and Forestry. government veterinary officer to the department. An animal which does not have a valid passport when presented at Mr Downie: Thank you, Mr President. I beg to move:

Farm and Horticultural Improvement Scheme 1999 -Approved T258 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th DECEMBER 1999

That the Farm and Horticultural Improvement five-year period, which can attract grant assistance. A Scheme 1999 IGC No 5I/99] be approved. separate maximum of f60,000 applies to any anti-pollution expenditure. The department is aware of some businesses This scheme replaces the existing Farm Improvement which would anticipate spending above this level. It has Scheme 1992 andthe Horticultural Improvement Scheme therefore opened dialogue with the Department of Trade 196'7 and amalgamates the department's two grant and Industry as to whether the correct avenue for support government schemes. Apart from minor amendments to both schemes, for such operations should be via that sister the Farm Improvement Scheme in 1993 to provide for department. milking equipment and the Horticultural Improvement All applications must be approved in writing by the can commence and be able to Schemé in 1983 to provide grant for logo mark packaging, department before work demonstrate to the department that they are all cost- effective and will help to improve the overall farm dwo 3Jä* in su The scheme has been subject to extensive consultation The scheme is discretionary in that the department may with the industry, the National Farmers Union, the Fatstock also reject applications. Marketing Association and Milk Marketing Association, In the last full financial year 1998-99 the department the health and safety executive of the Depanment of Local with 204 applications under the farm improvement Government and the Environment and with many dealt scheme; to date this year 140, suggesting farmers' individuals. As now presented for approval, the scheme reluctance and inability to invest for the future by way of represents an agreed format for government investment capital improvements. This scheme should go some way into agriculture and horticultural businesses. to addressing this present problem. grants are considered by the department Improvement In 1998-99 the department dealt with32 applications incentives for individuals to create a better as financial under the horticultural improvement scheme; to date this They therefore cover a wide range operational structure. year we have seen only 12. This new scheme will, for the grassland to anti- of improvements from regeneration first time, allow qualifying horticultural businesses which pollution works. In the main the normal rate of control retail products to be eligible for grant assistance. An annual 20 per cent costs, as grant assistance has been set at ofthe turnover of less than f100,000 has been introduced as a approved by the department, with higher rates reflecting qualifying bar, together with the condition that the the department's intention to try to encourage measures production must be from seed or from plants under 10 and such as pollution control, safe storage of chemicals weeks of age. Therefore the major garden centres such as pesticides, the safe handling of stock and the creation of B & Q and other people would not qualify. safe working practices and also the use of greener means The Farm Improvement Scheme budget for this year is of achieving an improvement. Special attention has been f325,000 and the Horticultural Improvement Scheme paid by the department to the need for farm businesses to budget f12p00. The department anticipates that this new conform to farm assurance schemes, and the incentives scheme with its higher levels of grant will occasion total provided by the scheme should enable all producers to grant assistance of some f425,000. undertake the necessary investment, even at this time of Mr President, I beg to'move the motion standing in my very low returns. name. I have previously advised the Court, grants for battery egg production have been withdrawn and grant assistance Mr Henderson: I beg to second, sir. introduced to convert to or establish other non-intensive production egg systems. The department has also The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution introduced for the first time grant assistance for organic set out at item 24 on the order paper. Will those in favour growers towards their certification and inspection costs. It please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes would be the department's intention in the year 2000, have it. through the mechanism of an agri-environmental scheme to be presented to the Court, to introduce a series of measures and payments aimed at developing and protecting the countryside. Isle of Man Arts Council - In the conditions of the scheme the department has Members Appointed newly introduced a residency period of l0 years before a grant can be obtained. Special provision is, however, made The President: ltem 25, the Chief Minister. for Manx students who have gone to agricultural college before retuming to the Island. New farmers defined as Mr Gelling: Thank you, Mr President, I beg to move: anyone under 40 and starting out in their own right are eligible to claim an additional l0 per cent grant in their That the rotational vacancies on the Isle of Man first five years of operation. Arts Council, whichfall vacant on 3Lst January 2000, be The department has set a maximum expenditure level filledfor afour-year term commencing I st February 2000 of f250,000, either singularly or in aggregate over any by-

Isle of Man Arts Council - Members Appointed TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th DECEMBER I999 T259

Ms J Alexander them success as well and hope that the spirit of Christmas Mr C Cain will prevail upon them as they take up office and will Mrs B Gale continue right throughout their reign. Mrs W McDowell Mr Cretney: Whilst it is not strictly on the agenda, it The Isle of ManArts Council was reconstituted in 1992 has been referred to about the Sports Council - into two panels of four year term overlapping The President: Yes, and it was one of those things that now arising result from the hon. member for Onchan quietly slides through but the revised constitution which I am not going to allow to be drawn into this debate. 3lst January 2000. We are dealing with an Arts Council appointment and that The four members retiring are Dr John Bethell, Mr John is where we will stay. I appreciate what you are going to try to do, but you are not going to do itt (Laughrer) So, the hon. member for Rushen.

Sir Miles Walker: Thank you, Mr President. I rise to support the resolution and in a way, I suppose, to support Council. some of the issues that have been raised by the hon. member With this in mind, three of the members for election on for Onchan. I think he has drawn to this Court's attention this occasion are new to the Arts Council. Mr C Cain, Ms some of the problems that have faced the council in the J Alexander and Mrs B Gale, and members will see from past, but on a positive note can I just mention John Bethell, their CV that they maintain a broad spectrum of the who has been a member of the Arts Council, I think, since different facets ofarts and bring a wealth ofexperience in its inception and maybe before if that is possible. He has their various fields to the service of the council' been involved in the arts in the Isle of Man for very many Again I would like to take this opportunity to express years - over 25, I suspect. I think his contribution has been again our members who are quite different to the usual run of the mill, and from that not being for their hard and contribution has resulted the Erin Arts Centre and the dedicated given great service contribution that makes to the cultural life in the south of and our thanks do go out to them, sir. Mr President, I the Isle of Man, and I think that John Bethell's work in therefore beg to move the item standing at 25, the Arts that direction, sir, needs applauding. (Mr Cannell: Hear, Council, which is on our agenda today, sir. hear.) I did go and see him prior to him being appointed on the last occasion to the Arts Council and suggested to Mr Rodan: I rise to second, Mr President. him that it was probably the last time his name would appear at least for some time, and I have to say we had a Mr Cannell: Mr President, we have heard of the very interesting conversation. He thanked me for delivering glowing terms in which some of the outgoing members that message in person but he also went on to extol the have been held and for dedication to their cause one cannot virtues of the Arts Council, the other people who had doubt, but there have been problems in the Arts Council worked on it and how the arts had proceeded under the and I hope we now look forward to theirresolution, because auspices of the Arts Council again since its inception. it has been at times, sir, nothing less than a war zone. Sir, I support the resolution. It is always difficult, I What itis about theArts Council and the Sports Council suppose, to say goodbye to people who have featured for I do not know, but somewhere along the line people seem a long time and I know John Bethel is not the only one but to lose the reason why they attend these things. Perhaps it I do think that he has made an excessive contribution (Mr is self-interest, perhaps in the case of the Sport Council Cannell: Hear, hear.) and I just wanted to mention it in they are rather more disposed to putting forward their own this Court, sir. sports than looking at the overall position. Certainly the same appears to have been the case in the past in the Arts The President: Reply, minister. Council, and I certainly have not envied those who have been charged with the task of trying to sort them out. We Mr Gelling: Thank you, Mr President. I thank the hon. have had, sir, people ranging in their volatility within the members for their support and I would not wish to comment Arts Council, led to the point where they have almost been further on problems which perhaps might have existed on the point of launching writs against other personal within the council, but I would like to say that basically members of theArts Council - legal writs, that is - and the Mr Jim Cain did not allow his name to go forward due to in-fighting has had to be seen to be believed. ill health so he was not considered for a re-appointment, So with those thoughts, sir, may I now look forward to but basically I think we must keep the balance within the the new, calmer Arts Council and hope that some of the Arts Council. problems which have faced them in the past will be put As the hon. member for Rushen, Sir Miles, has said, behind those who sta¡ who have been on the panels before, John Bethel, ofcourse, exhausted his four-year period plus one of which, of course is Wendy McDowell, one of the two unexpired years of someone else who retired to bring fine servants of the preceding panel. The new three are him up to date, so he was well aware and agreed, I think, Jean Alexander, Charles Cain and Barbara Gale. We wish with the changing scene within the Arts Council, and my

Isle of Man Arts Council - Members Appointed T260 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th DECEMBER 1999 records show thàt he was eight years prior to I 992 and has Under the terms of the Insurance and Pensions Authority certainly do n, so I do not know - is Order of 1996 members of the Insurance and Pensions it 25? - but long time and I would Authority are appointed by the Treasury. The Treasury concur with ed on theArts Council. appointed Mr Norman Radcliffe MLC, Chairman of the They have all made a good contribution to it and I would Insurance and Pensions Authority and Messrs Fletcher, like, therefore, to wish the members who are now being Cooper, Woolhouse and Dr Hastings as members. These proposed here for four years good luck and all the best, appointments were approved at a Tynwald Court sitting and to the chairman I hope he is able to keep them all held on January 2lst 1997. Their membership is due to beg to that under control. Thank you, Mr President. I move item 25, terminate in January of 2000 and I move re-appointment for a further period sir. Tynwald approve their of two years until the next general election. Fletcher is a graduate of Cambridge, a Fellow of The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution Mr the Chartered Insurance Institute and a Chartered Insurance set out at item 25 on the order paper. Will those in favour Practitioner. His career with Royal Insurance covered fire, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. accident, life and pensions insurance with a particular responsibility for organisation and method, systems A div is i o n w a s c al I e d r and v ot ing re s ult e d as ll ow s : fo fo development and maintenance and the provision and interpretation of statistics. He has been a member of the In the House - Insurance and Pensions Authority since 1986. Mr Cooper is a Fellow of the Chartered Institute of For: Messrs Gilbey, Cannan, Rodan, North, Quine, Management Accountants whose career was with Sir MilesWalker Mrs Crowe, Messrs Brown, Houghton, Sedgwick Risk Management Services with particular Henderson, Cretney, Duggan, Braidwood, Mrs Cannell, emphasis on captive management both within the British Shimmin, Downie, Mrs Hannan, Messrs Singe4 Messrs Isles and internationally. He has been a member of the Bell, Karran, Corkill, Gelling and the Speaker - 23 Insurance and Pensions Authority since 1996. MrWoolhouse is a graduate of Oxford and a Fellow of Against: Cannell - Mr I the Institute ofActuaries who has specialised in insurance during his career, latterly with Watson Wyatt Partners, The Speaker: Mr President, the motion carries in the consulting actuaries. He has been a member of the House, 23 votes cast for, 1 against, sir. Insurance and Pensions Authority since 1996. Dr Hastings is a graduate of Brighton and Caledonian the Council - In Universities, a Fellow of the Chartered Insurance Institute and a Fellow of the Institute of Risk Management. His For: The Lord Bishop, Messrs Lowey, Waft, Kniveton, careerin risk management spans the academic and market Radcliffe, Mrs Christian, Messrs Delaney arenas. He has been insurance supervisor and more recently and Crowe - 7 chief executive of the IPA. He has been appointed member ofthe IPA since 1996. Against: None I hope hon. members will appreciate the considerabie breadth and substance of experience that this membership The President: In the Council, 7 votes have been cast brings to the IPA. The CVs have been circulated, and I in favour ofthe resolution and no votes against. I decla¡e wish to move that the people listed at agenda item 26 be the resolution carried. approved, sir.

Sir Miles Walker: I would be pleased to second, Mr Insurance and Pensions Authority - President, and reserve my remarks, sir. Members Reappointed Mr Lowey: Can I just say first of all I have not the slightest doubt at all of the credentials of all of them, from The President: Item 26,the Minister for the Treasury the illustrious chairman down to the last-named member; the only reason why I am on my feet is that I do not believe Thank you, Mr President. I beg to move: Mr Corkill: that the regulators should be regulating as well, and that is where I come to the politician being the chairman of the That Tynwald approves the reappointment by IPA. I understand under the legislation we have no option Treasury of the Chairman and members of the Insurance other than to appoint, but I just wanted to make the point, an¿ Pensions Authority - and that is not a reflection on the chairman who is doing a first-class job but it is just my belief that we should be Mr J N Radcliffe MLC, Chairman separating the two and at the earliest opportunity, and I do Dr W J Hastings not think we should have let the opportunity go without Mr B H Cooper me actually recording my concerns that we should be Mr D V Fletcher working towards that. I will be supporting the resolution, Mr J Woolhouse Mr President.

Insurance and Pensions Authority - Members Reappointed TYNV/ALD COURT, TUESDAÍ I4th DECEMBER I999 T261

Mr Corkill: Mr President, the hon. member Mr Lowey of his job. We are aware that Mr President relies a lot on from the Council makes a point which was not unexpected Erskine May and we understand the reasons why and we by me. I think he raised two points, really. We have the also understand that any presiding officer needs to rely on existing legislation and that is what this agenda item fits his own judgement and experience in order to preside. We in with. What I would like to point out is that in the felt in general terms that it was better not to tie up the forthcoming Retirement Benefit Schemes Bill there will presiding officer and hon. members in this particular amending standing orders and we be provision to allow for a non-political chairman included respect any tighter by within that Bill. That does not mean to say that the decision so recommend. looked at the issue of parliamentary recesses. This has been taken to exclude a political chairman but at least, We should that Bill become law, the flexibility will be was drawn to our attention in a letter from the hon. member We thought it appropriate to consult with the introduced. I beg to move, Mr President. Mr Karran. Keys Standing Orders Committee on that particularmatter. we could find no grounds for altering the present The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution Again arrangements for the summer and Christmas recesses and set out at item 26 on the order paper. Will those in favour we again so recommend. I should say, though, that since please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes this report has been in the public arena one or two members have it. have mentioned this particular issue to me and the fact that perhaps school holidays do not tie in with the breaks that Tynwald have. The evidence that was before us when Standing Orders Committee - we considered this matter was just the letter from the hon. First Report for 1999-2000 Received member Mr Karran. It is an issue, I think, in which the Standing Orders Committee would be interested if The President: Item 27, Sir Miles Walker. members have any particular suggestions to make in that regard but at this stage we thought the matter was best left Sir Miles Walker: Thank you, Mr President. I beg to as it was. move: The third issue was the date of Tynwald Day and the fact that when 5th July falls on a Saturday or Sunday That the first report of the Standing Orders Tynwald Day is held on the Monday, and again a suggestion Committee the parliømentary year 1999-2000 be from the hon. member Mr Karran that Tynwald Day ought for a Sunday, received. to be held on 5th July whether it be Saturday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday orFriday - again present situation was satisfactory I am pleased to present this report to this hon. Coun it seemed to us that the not been made for changing our calendar, and it covers four issues which have been in front of the and a case had committee since we last reported in the report dated and we concluded that on the evidence before us we found grounds altering the present afrangements. February of 1997. no for Finally a matter which was brought to our attention by The first of those issues, sir, was a press release by the yourself, President - that is, the procedure for the Alliance for Progressive Government which was made in Mr election of committees. lVe are all aware from time to time 1998 and resulted irr yourself, sir, making a statement to there are elections of committees the this Court. The Standing Orders Committee received that sometimes when procedures we have to indulge in can drag on and on and further evidence, a further letter from the Alliance for on, or so it seems at the time. The committee considered Progressive Government, and it gave you the opportunity, this matter in some detail and realised that it was only in sir, to present your case to the committee in writing in the February of 1997, just over two years ago, when this hon. same way. That written evidence is presented in this repon. House received a report from us that it was decided that in conclusion to that particular issue that 'We have We say members of a committee should attract the majority of the evidence which we received, the considered carefully votes of members present and voting. We accept that that surrounding the statement by Mr President circumstances is a lengthy period from time to time but we do believe actions which are the and we conclude that neither the that 'The time absorbed by the present election procedure subject of the statement, nor the statement itself, reveal should not seriously inconvenience Members and may Tynwald nor require any any breach of Standing Orders of perhaps be treated as the price to be paid for maintaining amendment of Standing Orders. I think that the Alliance the authority of committees of the Court,' and again we for Progressive Government did in their evidence accept concluded 'that, on balance, there should be no change in that there had been no breach of standing orders and the Standing Orders which provide the procedure for the suggested to us there had been no breach in standing orders election of committees.' but that we look to see if an amendment to standing orders Those are the four issues, Mr President, that we did was necessary to allow, I suppose, a public response in look to and I beg to move the resolution standing in my this hon. Court. name, sir. The committee considered that matter for, I have to say, some little time and decided in general terms that standing The Speaker: I beg to second, Mr President. orders were better left as they were. We believe that a certain amount of latitude is required by a presiding officer. Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I have to say that I am very He has standing orders to rely on for the procedural aspects pleased that they did at least sit and consider my

Standing Orders Committee - First Report for 1999'2000 Received '1262 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th DECEMBER 1999 suggestions. I do feel that especially for those that have are perhaps a little more enlightened now after the children in this hon. Couf it would be better to shorten contribution that the hon. member has made, and it is and come back in September. Unfortunately there are a lot something I have no doubt at all that will come back in of people have this idea that members of Tynwald have front of our committee. nothing else to do than sit in this chamber or sit in another The same for the suggestion he made to us to bave July place, and I personally feel that it will be something that 5th as Tynwald Day whatever day it falls on, and I was will have to be revisited again; I hope it does get revisited interested to hear a comment from my colleague and again. I do think that having the parliamentary procedure neighbour, Minister Cretney, along the same lines. I would stopped for such a long time is not good. I think it would like to know from hon. members why they think that should be much more sensible to widen out the time at the be. It seems to me - and there are people in this Court who Christmas/l{ew Year time and cut down in the summer have been here for a longer period than I - that the time so that if there are issues that need to be addressed established pattern of Tynwald Day seemed to me to be they can be addressed and maybe not be drawn out of all something that was entirely acceptable to members of this proportion. I know that it is very rare in the summertime Court and the general public, our community out there. I that the House of Keys is being called back. I believe it would be interested to know if that is not the case, and has been done once in my time and I do feel that it is a again I would invite members, if they do feel strongly on missed opportunity. this issue, to let us know. I find the comments quite I also feel that it is really just a matter of well, that is interesting and I do not know how wide that feeling is how they used to do it on 5th July going over to the Monday. abroad. I honestly cannot see why it should be put over to the The comment made by Mrs Christian - no, I do not think Monday and I would like to have seen the Standing Orders we did consider in detail the dropping off of the people Committee come up with arguments why these things are who got the fewest number of votes. We were looking at not worthy of doing. I personally feel that 5th July is the the principles: should a person be elected just by a majority special day and I believe that is when we should have our or should we pursue the ballot to make sure that a person Tynwald Day (Mr Cannell: Hear, hear.) and I believe it is has a majority support of the members present and voting? only done as an anachronism of the past because it did not And I am afraid that is what we did; we did not dissect the suit some people who are not around and have not got the procedure. Mr President, I beg to move. power that they had in those days. So I would say that whilst I accept the report and I The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution appreciate the chairman and I appreciate their taking on set out at item 27 on the order paper. Will those in favour board my points and I am impressed with that, I would please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes just like to have seen a little bit more objectivity and them have it. look at the situation whether 'Oh, the member for Onchan Hon. members, with item 27 resolved I would ask the is after something again.' Standing Orders Committee of this hon. Courtto determine whether or not the practice both here and throughout the Mrs Christian: Mr President, I just want to refer to the Commonwealth of turning to Erskine May as the ultimate question of election of committees. The mover did indicate authority on issues upon which the local standing orders that the Standing Orders Committee agreed to endorse the are silent should or should not, in the light of their principle that the members who attract the greatest number conclusions which are confrary to Erskine May, be accepted of votes should be elected. (lnterjection)Well,I am reading practice in this legislative assembly in the future. I would from the report. I just wonder whether the committee be glad if you would look at that. considered the procedure at the bottom end, as it were. It is the knocking offof names at the bottom end which seems to take such a long time in coming to the final conclusions European Union - Heads of Government in the procedure for electing committees. I wonder if the Meeting in Helsinki Motion Carried hon. mover could indicate whether they considered that - issue at all in their consideration of this particular element The President: Hon. members, we move on to item of the report. 28. The hon. Mr Cannan to move. Mr Brown: STV! Mr Cannan: Mr President, I beg to move: The President: Reply, sir. That þnwald takes note of the outcome of the Sir Miles Walker: Yes, thank you, Mr President. Just European Union Heads of Government meeting held in two people to respond to. Mr Karran in his comments Helsinki on l)th - llth December 1999. wondered why we did not give the pros and cons of the situations that he raised, and I suppose we could pose the I believe it is appropriate that from time to time there is same question back to the hon. member. He suggested it a debate on external affairs that are relevant to the Isle of would be better to restart the summer recess at the end of Man. Ninety or ninety-five per cent of our time in this September and perhaps have a longer recess over the New hon. Court, quite rightly, is spent on debating internal Year period, but there was no reasoning in his letter. We domestic issues of the Isle of Man but our wealth comes

European Union - Heads of Government Meeting in Helsinki - Motion Carried TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th DECEMBER 1999 T263

have an adverse effect on the Isle of Man. As I have said earlier, this disarray amongst European Union member states can only be in our interest. They get all in atizz and a bother about withholding tax, about business code of officials and members of statutory boards should be conduct taxes, about the six matters that the Primarolo discouraged, and instead matters concerning the European report is wishing to refer to the heads of govemment. They Union and the OECD should be discussed and debated cannot reach agreement. What it means, and all of us openly and transparently here in the Manx parliament understand that, is that we can peacefully cany on our bècauie, after all, that is where democracy begins and ends' business, which is for the benefit of the Isle of Man and There is considerable public and media interest in the our prosperity. We do not need to wish them success in effect that the European Union policies and decisions will coming to some sort of agreemen| we do not wish them join have on the economy and general well-being of the Isle of success in being able to persuade Switzerland to them, because as long as Switzerland holds out there will never be agreement amongst them. We all know the current economic prosperity has been achieved by maximising the potential of the Island's present constitution, and that constitution, I believe, has to be preserved, indeed savings, and the last two items were discussed at the strengthened, so as to sustain the unprecedented prosperity European summit last week and many hon. members may that all ofus are enjoying. have, when watching world news on BBC, seen that that But unfortunately the Isle of Man is being watched and, European summit, fortunately for the Isle of Man if I can I suggest, with envy by member states of the European say so, ended in disarray. Union and the Organisation for Economic Co-operation As the Chief Minister stated at Question Time this and Development, and always any sensible country, any morning there was little discussion on the matter of the sensible business proposition, any sensible family will report on the European Union code ofconduct on business make any contingency plans in case orin the unlikely event taiation - that is, the Primarolo report. However, in the that things go wrong, and so hopefully, in the unlikely event matter of the European draft directive on savings, the of the European Union agreeing legislation on tax withholding tax, all of you must have been aware, in the harmonisation and on the directive on savings we must days before the European summit, of the constant press make or think what will happen to us, and I believe that comment and comment of political commentators both on the United Kingdom will place itself under an obligation radio and television on how the United Kingdom would within the United Kingdom dependency constitutional deal with the matter and how it would respond to the relationship to apply the European legislation and pressures, because this is a high profile contentious issue directives to its Crown dependencies, and the Isle of Man opposed, as I have just said, by the UK Government to must withstand that threat to its fiscal independence. safeguard its Eurobond market in the City of London. Now, unfortunately the Island's constitutional Now, I am sure all members realise by now that the relationship with the United Kingdom is that of practice withholding tax is not - repeat, not -being opposed by the and custom. There is no formal written constitution, and UK chancellor because it would have an adverse effect on to clarify that position, as Tynwaid was informed last the Manx economy. I doubt if it has even thought about October, the Standing.Committee on Constitutional Matters whetherit affects the Manx economy ornot. The first duty has invited the Right Hon. Lord McKay of Clashfern, the of a UK chancellor would be to look after his o'wn country, former Lord Chancellor, to assist the committee's inquiry his own backyard, so to speak. So while the UK into the constitutional status of the Island and its Government has the responsibility for looking after the relationship with theUK, and the committee hope to report interests of the Island, in these European Union summits to Tynwald next sPring. and other world summits that are discussing globalisation If - and I say f - the eventual outcome of a future of the economy and globalisation almost of taxations, the European heads of government meeting is agreement on Island, I regret to say, takes a very low priority when the certain tax measures, then there will be immense pressure United Kingdom's own interest is threatened. on the Isle of Man to impose those tax measures. I do not The matter of the withholding tax has been referred to think there can be any doubt about it: the European Union the meeting of the finance ministers in February. That was states would not tolerate having a small offshore centre, the outcome of the heads of government meeting last week. whether it be Liechtenstein or Andorra or the Channel They could not reach agreement, as members know' Mr Islands or the Isle of Man, being able to bypass what they Brown held out - that is Gordon Brown not Tony, sir! - to see as a Europeanisation ofits tax policies, and pressures say that the United Kingdom would not accept a coming from the European Union on to the UK for the - and repeat, only withholding tax of 20 per cent 'ùhich identified the investor Isle of Man to conform could be I could to the government of the country to which he belonged be - a threat in the form of a ban on certain transactions and returned and deducted and returned the tax. between the residents of the major European Union Now, I believe, and I hope I have a certain amount of countries and the named offshore islands, and./or a ban on consensus on this, that it must be the wish and hope of all banks and financial institutions clearing cheques from of us that the European states will never reach agreement offshore island finance sectors, and/or the imposition of on a withholding tax or any other fiscal policy that could penalties and surcharges under a strict code governing tax

European Union - Heads of Govemment Meeting in Helsinki - Motion Carried T264 TYNIWALD COURT, TUESDAY, I4Ih DECEMBER I999

relationships between residents and the so-called offending the member states holding the presidency for just six offshore islands. months. Now, the presidency is currently held by the Finns So in putting this motion down, as I said, I believe it is and the Portuguese will be taking over on 1 st January 2000, appropriãte that from time to time we address our minds which is not too far away. Now, the normal practice is for to whát is going on in the outside world and what can have there to be a European Council summit meeting of the an effect possibly on the Isle of Man and our present happy heads of government towards the end of each presidency status of full employment, an expanding economy and a and it is usually held in the territory of the country which general feeling of well-being amongst the public. And so I holds the presidency. Such a meeting took place, and it is say it behoves the Chief Minister and the Council of the six-monthly meeting that we speak of, which was held Ministers to watch closely what is happening within the in Finland on 1Oth and 11th December, so this was a normal European Union, hoping always that there will be disarray meeting held by the EU in the territory of the country who so thèy can agree on nothing, but I have to say there is that holds the presidency at this time. So it was a routine continuing momentum for full monetary union and the meeting with a very wide-ranging agenda of all kinds of establishment of a federal state. So I say and ask that the curent and future issues. Chief Minister report on a regular basis here to Tynwald The broad headings of what was discussed, I can inform what is happening in the European Union, because hon. members, included: preparing for the enlargement of presumably he has access to the very heart of the process the EU and the entry ofvarious eastern European countries; and to which we mere humble members do not have, and secondly, the intergovernmental conference to begin next inform parliament. That is where it must be informed. year on reforming the institution of the European Union, Parliament must be informed and the opportunity for primarily to prepare for enlargement; thirdly, a common members to ask questions and to be fully cognisant. policy on security and defence; fourthly, creating a There is one small final point that crosses my mind, competitive job-generating sustainable economy; and that the Council of Ministers seem not to have appointed a fifthly a range of internal matters; and then external resident professional adviser in Brussels with a general relations. Now, many of these issues will in the long term remit to promote and safeguard the Isle of Man interest, or have indirect impact, I would suggest, on our Island as that appeared to be the indication in the written answer to they change Europe and the world in which we all live. a question this morning. There was one topic within the general heading of Having said all that, I leave it now to members to creating a competitive job-generating sustainable economy comment as they think fit, but again I say there can be no which was of particular interest to us in the Isle of Man. room for complacency. Always we must be on guard, This was the proposal which the hon. member has always we must have contingency plans and always we suggested for a taxation package which includes three must hope that there will be disarray and no agreement in measures. None of these would be applicable under Europe. Sir, I beg to move. community law in the Island, but in the case of two of them the European Union has ambitions that the principles Mr Delaney: I beg to second and reserye my remarks. underpinning those two measures should be exported and adopted more widely in third countries and obviously in Mr Gelling: Mr President, basically responding to the dependencies. Those measures are the code of conduct on hon. member for Michael, who opened his comments by business taxation and the draft directive on the taxation of saying that seminars should be discouraged, I think I would savings. have to disagree there - Had these measures been approved at Helsinki, the United Kingdom Government would no doubt have sought Members: Hear, hear. to persuade us and others to introduce and implement something similar. However, agreement \ilas not reached, Mrs Crowe: Absolutely. so the implications of Helsinki are not what they might have been. The hon. member for Michael has suggested Mr Gelling: - in as much as if we are going to have that long may that disarray continue, and it is fair to say well-informed debates within this Court I would suggest that because of the non-agreement in Helsinki it was a that members should be as well informed as possible, and good result for the Isle of Man, so we can agree on that therefore I would say that we should be encouraging paficular point. seminars so that members can be up to date with what is But I must say the issues will not go away and further going on and coupled with a resolution, perhaps, or a work will be done within the European Union to see if statement in this particular Court, I think it would be of agreement can be reached for the next summit in Portugal benefit to hon. members if both were the order of the day. in June of next year, but Helsinki has not given us anything to be unduly concerned about - I would suggest, rather the Mr Cannan: I will go along with both. reverse. I think also, with regard to the situation of whether the Mr Gelling: Now, also the hon. member states that the EU would tolerate a small country not adhering, again I European summit ended up in disagreement and that too would suggest that that is something that would be probably is a fact, but of course we must remember - and I am quite sanctioned against us whether we were independent or sure that members are aware - that the presidency of the connected one way or the other. If it is an international European Union operates on a rota system with each of world norm and they are successful in persuading

European Union - Heads of Government Meeting in Helsinki - Motion Carried TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14rh DECEMBER 1999 T26s

Mr Cannell: Thank you, Mr President. I beg to move:

That Tynwald requests the Council of Ministers to reconsider its policy on the reform of locaL government.

Hon. members will be relieved to hear that I do not propose a review of the reform of local government as it has occupied the considerable time of this hon. Court and in other places according to my research to at least 1934. I think everybody is aware of where they stand on what I view as this important issue. At the moment the problem considered if such things might arise. ofthe reform oflocal government has been shelved by the So all I can say to hon. a very Council of Ministers and I am calling today for them to long and detailed Helsinki idencY reconsider that position, not least because I am led to conilusions which runs int it is all believe that not every member of the Council of Ministers under the headings that I have already given to members, was present at the meeting at which that decision to shelve which are the six headings which t read out and what they it came about, but I am not so concerned as to whether a had discussed. So we will be continuing to keep vote would be taken differently had they been there in full developments in relation to taxation in particular in Europe or not. I am more concerned with trying to obtain the view and elsèwhere under review and I can assure members that of Tynwald Court, not to instruct the Council of Ministers as we are advised on these developments we will advise but to advise them of their views that they consider that members as necessary. So what I can assure hon. members this is a subject still worth continuing with, because local is that we did indeed take note of the Helsinki meeting of government is a matter of importance to us all, not least 10th and 1lth December 1999. those involved in our highly prized commerce and industry. Perhaps not going back to 1934 nor even to 1987 when The President: Reply, hon. member? a motion was put to Tynwald for the abolition of the domestic rate, again considerable time was spent on it, but Mr Cannan: Mr President, I thank my seconders and I after lots of shilly-shallying eventually we had 'Tîme for am delighted with the speech of the Chief Minister which, Change', a document which seemed to be progressing well without wishing to be in any way conceited, I think but which ultimately failed and we have subsequently had reinforced what I had already said.I am delighted to know a document securing the future for local government which, that he is going to keep us informed. I concur that, yes' as I have mentioned, was shelved at the last minute. So there should be seminars but there should be open debate my view with this motion is no less than to obtain a here too and open public questioning if necessary' I think Tynwald overview. we have had a fair assessment of what has happened in I am aware that the Council of Ministers via the Chief Helsinki and it is good to know that the Chief Minister has Minister propose to put an amendment to this. They took given an undertaking that while we are not complacent their decision in September 1999, as I have said, that no ãre quite happy, basically, to see continued disarray but"¡/e further action should be taken at the present tlme to knowing also that the problem will not go away. restructure local government and that decision was taken So, Mr President, I beg to move the motion standing in in response to a paper from the Department of Local my name. Government and the Environment on the subject of local government reform, which I have here and which I The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution understand is in general circulation now, although at the set out at item 28 on the order paper. Will those in favour time it was confidential, and the recommendation which please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes was made by the Department of Local Government and have it. the Environment was that they believed enough time and Hon. members, I think it is an appropriate time for the effort had also been expended but, having considered the a Court to take a break and we will adjoum until five minutes various identified approaches of the document securing past five by the Court clock. Thank you, hon. members. future for local government, decided to invite the Council of Ministers to endorse that department's preferred way would then The Court adjourned at 4.46 p.m. forward or to suggest an alternative which form the basis of a briefing for members of Tlnwald prior to the Council taking a final decision on the reform of local government and placing a resolution on the Tynwald order Local Government Reform - þaper. It could not bo clearer; that was the Department of Reconsideration of Policy - Lotal Government's preferred option. They were asking Amended Motion Carried the Council of Ministers to back it and to come forward. So what hap as we have The President: Hon. members, we turn next to item29 already heard. of course, on the order paper and I call upon the hon. member for had undertak of Local Onchan, Mr Cannell, to move. Government minister from the previous sessions and I think

Local Government Reform - Reconsideration of Policy -Amended Motion Carried T266 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th DECEMBER I999 it would be fair to say that the hon. member forAyre, Mr February 1995 (Laughter). Mr Walter Gilbey: 'The progress the preferred was Quine, when he was the ministerthere was fully committed department will option.'When to this and indeed he has spoken many times on his views that? June, this year - on that. But the Council of Ministers, in making their decision, sai quite Mr Delaney: He was not minister then ! widely held local government that. Mr Cannell: - and he did, to be fai¡ put the department's However, th ing a view in that document and he put his name to it. He did specific proposal that could command majority support' not shy away from it. I am sure his heart was not in it but The Council \ilas not able to achieve a consensus on that he, as all of us do, felt the obligation to endorse all the and, rather than spend further Council and departmental work that had gone before. Even theAPG support it. I am time on the issue, it was their decision that energy be pleased to see Mr Edgar Quine still talking on these lines, devoted to other issues. There are many other issues which and he said that there was no disrespect to previous everybody could devote time to and we all personally think members, but he exemplified the motto of course of 'Only that the things we are involved with should occupy more Here to Help,' as he does. (l'aughter) time than everybody else's. But I would humbly and respectfully suggest that somewhere along the line those Mrs Crowe: That is unusual! two documents have to be married up, because we had the Department of Local Government and the Environment Mr Cannell: So Mr Quine stays with it, Mr Gilbey up to the last hour putting their suggestion forward; we goes with it with the department but the Council of had the Council of Ministers saying they recognise there Ministers, despite recognising there is a view quite widely is a view quite widely held in Tynwald. 'Local government held, throw it out. Why did they do that? Well, they say it reform is a valid topic for political debate and was because they could not see how it could be voted consideration' - that is what they say, hence the Council's through. proposal that they will have a select committee to review So that is what I am doing here. There are some other ihe position, which will be the terms, I understand, of an quotes as well but I think we have had enough of those. amendment to be placed forward. But the remaining fact is that the amendment by the Council So I cannot reconcile the two views. The Department of Ministers will put this into a committee and it will be of Local Government went forward with their suggestion exactly the position that we are in now because, with the - that seems quite clear to me; yet the Council of Ministers, greatest respect for those who may or may not occupy a although recognising there is a view quite widely held in committee if that amendment is successful, well, the last have, according Tynwald, 'were not able to achieve a consensus. Perhaps thing we need is another examination.We the answer lies in the changeover of the ministers which to a previous member - I think that was Mr Delaney - I ,600 occurred around that time. Perbaps the answer lay in the pages of documents and that was only while he has been fact that some of the members of the Council of Ministers looking at it. were not present. I am not sure about that and it does not matter very much to me, but it does matter to me that the Mrs Crowe: That was the Shops Bill. subject is not allowed to lie down and be buried, and I think that is exactly what would happen were the Council Mr Cannell: That was quite a while ago. There has of Ministers amendment to put the thing to a committee; been at least the same again, I should think. We are, of then I think you could wave goodbye to it for a couple of course, turning paper over even if we cannot get a good years at least. price for exporting it now, and we are told it has to head to It is a legitimate tactic, of course, and there is no the north ofthe Island and be put into the landfill up there. suggestion of any impropriety by that occuning - quite Well, we have made our contribution. What I am saying the reverse, but I would like to quote a few people in this is, let us not adopt the committee stance for this; let us be hon. Court who I have checked on about what they have brave and call upon the Council of Ministers to have said to whom, when and how. Sir Miles Walker said in another look at it, change their mind (Messrs Houghton previous quotes, speaking on this subject, 'I support the and Delaney: Hear, hear.) and bring their own legislation radical approach. There is a need to look at fewer local forward and let us get something done! authorities.' (A Member: Hear, hear.) Mr Dominic Delaney: 'Unless changes to local authorities continue to Mr Lowey: But \ryhat if they don't? deteriorate to the stage where democracy is insulted by the idea that local authorities carry out meaningful purposes Mr Houghton: I beg to second, sir. we will all be lost.'Aprevious member of this hon. Court, Mr Terry Groves: 'I favour a radical approach' - he must The President: Hon. members, the resolution is before have been talking to Sir Miles. Mr Alex Downie: 'Local the Court. I call on the Chief Minister to move the authorities are marking time. The minister jumped ship'- amendment standing in his name. that was in I 994. A previous Speaker of the House of Keys: 'Local authorities are not a well child.' Mr Steve Rodan: Mr Gelling: Mr President, listening to the mover of 'The Isle of Man is the most over-governed area in Europe,' the resolution I would respond firstly by saying yes, I think speaking as the Chairman of Laxey Commissioners in the majority of people of this Court are committed to

Local Government Reform - Reconsideration of Policy -Amended Motion Canied TYNWALD COURT, TUESD 14th DECEMBER I999 T267 change. That is not the point; the point is, what change? pretend that we are still working constructively on the Of cõurse the hon. member reads out Sir Miles quoting matter and then of course there would be no prospect of reaching a solution which we could put before Tynwald, and that would simply result in nothing happening and I would suggest it would be dishonest. So therefore the difficulties we have had within Council on this issue provide the reason for the amendment which I propose, and I would again suggest, if Tynwald refers the matter back to the Council of Ministers we will be in the same position that we have been in in all our recent deliberations and there is little likelihood that we would be able to find some acceptable formula which has eluded us in our discussions over these recent years. Therefore number of scenarios on how this approach could succeed. the motion as it stands is a formula where I do not think Now, I have circulated an amendment to the motion. I we can produce a result but I feel that the motion as hope that the amendment will find favour and I will say amended might certainly produce a result. We need a fresh foi why. As I have already said, the history of the look by a different group of members, I would suggest, consideration of local government reform by govemment and accordingly I am, on behalf of the Council of Ministers, in Tynwald is long. It is so long I can remember - I think it proposing the establishing of a select committee of is 25 years ago - as a commissioner at Santon, sitting in Tynwald. There is still no guarantee of success, but a fresh Ballabeg hall, being told by the hon. Mr Speaker at that set of eyes may just be able to see a way forward which time 'If you don't change we will change it for you.' That will command general support. was 25 years ago. (Laughter) Certainly, handing the matter back to the Council of Ministers, with the best will in the world, is notthe answer. Mr Cannell: He is working on it! (Some Members: Hear, hear.) We have tried honestly to arrive at a solution and I hold up both hands and say that Mr Gelling: So I am not going to go through the despite all the time and effort we have not been successful. history because it is a very, very long history, and So therefore a new team, in my opinion and the Council's where the consensus breaks down is, as I have already opinion, is the only possible solution. That is the basis, said, what reforms should we pursue. Now, the hon. therefore, of my proposal with the amendment and I am member has said that he thinks there were people sure we can make available copies of the previous missing at Council when this was considered. There proposals which have been considered to assist in the were two members missing. There was still a full examination and we will be as helpful as we can, but a quorum there of Council of Ministers. Now, if you select committee, I believe, is the only possible way of are going to suggest, perhaps, to us that every time making progress and therefore I propose the amendment there is a minister missing we do not consider which is standing in my name which has been circulated: anything because the full complement is not there, that is something, I am afraid, why the quorum is there For the words aJier 'That' substitute 'a select - that the discussion must go on and, as I say, it was committee of five merytbers be appointed to consider and the consensus breaking down as to what reform we report on the reþrm of local government'. should pursue. Basically it was that which would command a majority of support, and that was where Mr Corkill: I beg to second, sir. the different solutions offered by members and by local authorities all reflect differences in view or The President: Hon. members, I have a further notified within a much wider area than I think we would ever amendment from the hon. member for Ayre, Mr Quine, get consensus for in the Court, which poses a problem for the chair. It refers in that Now, the Council of Ministers itself does reflect the amendment to recommendations on the reform of local differences and divisions, and I have to say we have spent government submitted in September 1999 to the Council a lot of time over many years looking at the different by the Department of Local Government and the Local proposals advanced by the Department of Environment. Now, has a copy of that documentation been Government and the Environment, and there has been no circulated to all members? If it has not, standing order willingness on the part of the Council of Ministers lack of 3.23(7) is applicable where no document may be referred to consider the issues or to contemplate change and we to until a copy has been distributed to all members, and in certainly have not shied away from it because it was too that sense I cannot accept the amendment. If it has been difficult, but what we have to do is acknowledge honestly circulated I do not have it in my possession. that although we have tried and repeatedly tried to arrive at a formula for reform on which the Council could achieve Cannell: I am in receipt of it, sir. consensus, we have not found the answer. So therefore we Mr must acknowledge that Council has not been able to get You you reconcile its differences and it is better that we should do The President: Now, let us this clear. say this and announce it rather than that we should try and have distributed. I have received no copy in the chair.

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Mr Cannell: No, I did not distribute it' I received it. There is the complaint that certain services and facilities are paid for by ratepayers of one area and used by The President: It may have been circulated but I ratepayers of another for which they either pay only a certainly have not received a copy in this Court and I do marginal sum or do not pay at all. not know if any of my colleagues on the bench here have We have the situation where we have some of the received a copy either. Some have. authorities providing essential services. For example, we have seven towns providing libraries used by people Mr Gelling: If I can assist, Mr President, I thinkperhaps outside those towns and they pay of course the normal the document being referred to is the document that I sent subscription fee, but that does not meet the costs of the out with a covering letter informing members that I was libraries at all and one particular local authority that I am proposing an amendment. aware of is putting 9p on their rates to make up the difference. The President: I would ask the learned Clerk to We have four towns who are providing their own examine that document and see whether or not it is building control services and paying for them, and we have applicable in respect of this proposed amendment. Does it other local authorities who are relying upon DOLGE and represent the recommendations submitted? Without are not being charged for those services. We have a similar possession of that document I, of course, could take no situation in respect of the housing flats regulations, action other than the one I have taken. I still do not have dangerous buildings, injury to amenity, varying from the the document but I have been assured by the learned Clerk different groups of authority. that it does contain the information which is embodied in Coming at it from the other point of view, we have a the amendment. Now, do all hon. members have copies? number of local authorities that have been on to the Department of Local Government and the Environment Members: Yes. now for a considerable period of time saying, 'We want to take on additional responsibilities.'There is no great dissent The President: You do? So you are prepared to go ahead about that as far as the department has been concerned, with the debate on the basis of the fact that you all have but there has to be a common framework to sustain the copies? In that case I accept the amendment and invite the decentralisation of those facilities. hon. member forAyre to present it to the Coun. One final point that I would make is that - and I think this is the point where I should make it - I do feel, having Mr Quine: Thank you, Mr President. I apologise for been intimately involved with this exercise for getting on any hiccough that has been caused but I assure you it is for the best part ofthree years and indeed before that, that not I who have circulated the document; it has been put some of the smaller authorities are deluding themselves in into our hands, is in the hands of all members and therefore thinking that if they remain as they are they are representing I am drawing upon it. good, cost-effective services for the ratepayers. The fact I would like to contribute to this debate under basically is that a low rate does not necessarily represent cost- four headings and I will deal with them as succinctly as I effectiveness of local government and it is easily can. demonstrated. If we look at some of the smaller authorities I would suggest to hon. members that the first issue we and take away those duties which are provided through have to consider is the need for reform and I would again combination authorities.and those which are provided submit to members that there is broad acceptance by a through boards, we have some authorities whose existence substantial majority of local authorities that reform is cost is greater than the value of the services they deliver. needed. As the Chief Minister said, and he may not have That is afact. Now, it may be that that is something that used these words, the issue is the form and degree of the this hon. Court can live with, but I represent some of the reform that should take place. Why do I say - or why do smaller rural authorities and I am pleased to say that at they say indeed - that this reform is necessary? Well, I least I have had some reaction from them and some think it is well documented. We can start from the self- initiative from them and they have been trying to get evident. We now have what you might call 35 local together and reform themselves and I think there is a authorities. What I mean by that is of course if we count recognition at least within that group of smaller authorities the local authorities and the combination authorities and that the present position is not a tenable one, it is not a the boards together we have 35 and we are heading for an logical one, it does not represent the best interests of the even greater number in the very near future. So I think just ratepayers, and there is a difference between the interests from the point of view of the self-evident, that sort of of incumbent members of a local authority and the number of authorities in relation to a population of 74,000 ratepayers. (Mr Cretney: Hear, hear.) There is a big speaks volumes. difference between the two. But leaving that aside and looking at the submissions So I start from that premise. I try to be as impartial as I that have been made in the course of this exercise, the can and I ask myself the question, is there a case for reform? complaints about the existing system are several. First of I have to say there is a very strong case for reform. If we all there is the complaint that there is an unfaimess in the are going to reform, then I would suggest that we should burden of the rates as between certain authorities, not least be looking at certain principles. I believe that out of the between urban and rural authorities. That is a fact. That exercise we have ca¡ried out to date three principles have has been part of the submission. come through.

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One is that we should be seeking a rationalisation of by abig six, but that said, it will give you a sufficient area, the rate burden. Rates should be levied on a more equitable a sufficient unit to re-size to allow you to reform and have basis with a more direct connection between the local cost-effective local government, and where there is a facilities and services and those who are benefiting from shortfall in terms of taking on board all of the desirable those who should be those that are paying for those. Now, local services and facilities, they would be big enough to quite- clearly that is not the present situation. contract out to others, so it will give you that flexibility to Secondly, I think if we are going to proceed with any embrace that. reform there has to be sufficient capacity within the new So there we are. I think we have those three options. I structure in terms of population and rate income to spread do not think there are other viable options. If they exist, that cost and make ðost-effective delivery possible. We well they have certainly eluded several teams over many have got to provide for an efficient service, but it has got years in trying to identifY them. to be cost-effective and I believe that that is a second The way forward - I do not believe a select committee positive. What will a select -principle that should underwrite any reform. will achieve anything The third is that it has to represent meaningful reform, committee achieve? A select committee will kick this into touch until after the next general election and we will start all over again, and Ijust quite honestly cannot see the value of that. I believe that the way forward is to move the decision-making process from the Council of Ministers, because they have established quite clearly that they are objectives that I believe underwrite reform. not able to take that decision, we remove it from them and Our options for reform - again I can be quite succinct we take it into the branches through a legislative about these. Firstly, I do not believe that the status quo is mechanism and to that end what I am saying is this: I an option. Now, I am aware that a number of the small believe that the Council of Ministers should introduce a loca[ authorities and indeed one or two others say that the Bill - they are, after all, the government of the day - based status quo should stay on the recommendation that has been made to them by the quo is tenable in the m department with specifìc responsibility for this, put it onto because as long as you the branches, it will go on the floor on the basis of l2 and have a system that we then know that we can work through that legislation administratively feasible, as long as we have those and there will have to be a decision, even if the decision is weaknesses, quite honestly it is not a question of the status to kick out the legislation. At least we will get a decision quo, it isjust a question of how long can you hold that line with proper public debate and not decisions taken behind and at what cost until reform is forced upon us. I believe it closed doors. I honestly believe that that is the way forward is better to look at this - and it is certainly in the interests and therefore with that in mind I would like to move the ofthe people - and take a decision on reform now and say, amendment in my name, which I think has been circulated, 'This stands up, this can be scrutinised, this is sustainable.' which puts before hon. me So I put to one side the status quo because I do not believe approach to that which is it is an option and I have said so, as the hon. member has which has been moved by said, on a number of occasions. options are before this hon. Court. Thank you very much. The big six? Yes, the big six, and that will give you I beg to move: adequate capacity. It will give you the rate income to spread costs. You will get the rate income and you can spread the For the words after 'Ministers'substitute 'to introduce cost. It is resisted by local authorities and I think with a legislation to implement the recommendations on the degree of validity. The smaller authorities, certainly the reþ rm of I o c al g ov e mme nt s ub mitt e d in S e pt e mb e r I 9 99 rural ones, say that that would give them a loss of identity. to the Council by the Department of Local Governmenî I do not think there is great substance in that, but their and the Environment'. second point, I believe, has greater substance and that is that if you go for the big six you are in effect reversing The President: Now, hon. members, we have the what you have got now and the unfairness will creep in resolution and two amendments before the Court. The hon. from the other direction. So I do not believe the big six member for Douglas East. strikes the balance. It may be that with the passage of time and with some adjustments to thinking on the issue of local Mrs Cannell: Thank you, Mr President. I am very government reform, then it may have a future, but I do not happy and honoured to rise to second the amendment which believe at this time it has a future. That leaves us with the other option which is the recommendation from the Department of Local Government and the Environment to the Council of Ministers and that was to gofor l2local authority units by had a fresh look at the proposals under local authority an amalgamation of parish authorities into sheading reform. Now, I refer to a fresh look because those were authorities. Again, that will give us an adequate capacity, the chosen words of the hon. Chief Minister when moving an adequate rate base. It will not give you the same expanse his amendment as an explanation as to why it was not of local authority activity perhaps as you could embrace appropriate for the Council of Ministers to reconsider or

Local Government Reform - Reconsideration of Policy - Amended Motion Carried T270 TYNWALD COURT TUESDAT 14th DECEMBER 1999

do anything other than to recommend a select committee quoted me on, just on a number of local authorities, you of five members to look at it. He said a fresh look, a new will see I was not far off the mark because what we have team, a select committee, the only way to make progress. now is not the first principle of local government, which I would put it to hon. members that the only way we can is to look after your local area, but as has been expressed make true progress after 25 years of deliberation at local by senior members of this Court, the idea seems to be to authority level, House of Keys level and Tynwald level is, make the authority feed on itself, to look after itself before to echo the words of the previous speaker, to put and it looks after the people it was designed to look after, and consider legislation. If we are not in agreement with the when you look at the number of times we have debated legislation or the proposals contained within it at the second these issues it has always come down to the one factor as reading stage, then we can kick it out of touch, but at least far as members ¿ìre concemed, 'What about my local parish then we will have come to the end of this particular term, pump?', looking over their shoulder for the parish pump, the term of members in this hon. Court, and be able to say and as I have said, and also could have been quoted, if the we considered, we looked, we decided, we either went with parish pump is not working, it is not doing anybody any local authority reform or we decided to reject it. We will good, and I and other members who have had the job of have made a decision and that, I believe, is fundamental to local government minister or chairman know that it this particular situation, that we reach a decision and that becomes a handicap to some of the people of the Island, if is where a green Bill stage is the most useful utensil to not to all at some time, and if members just reflect back on whip together the answers in relation to this fiasco in some a number of the local authorities recently, hundreds of areas, thousands ofpounds or more has been spent on legal advice I believe the consideration by the Council of Ministers in two authorities than half of the local departments, local of the proposal submitted to it from the Department of groups ofthe so-called representatives in local authorities Local Government and the Environment has much merit. have in raised income in the financial year. Do not tell me It seems to be a very practical, common-sense approach that is good local govemment in operation. in order to bring together the necessary reform to do it in a I am one of the people, that when I was given the job stage-like manner which is suggested within the document by the then Chief MinisterWalker, made it clear and made that members have before them and I think that is probably it clear on a number of occasions I wanted to give local the only way we can move forward. authorities the opportunity to have more powers to look There will always be those who will not consider that after their areas and certainly in the stage of first planning. they want change, that they desire change, that we need But I was told, and I accepted, how can you give some of change, and there will always be those who consider that those local authorities responsibility for planning matters we do, but I think in addressing those situations and when, never mind the officers they have not got, they addressing those concerns we have to really truly face up cannot even clean their own areas without having to get now to all of the anomalies that are contained within the somebody in to do it? They have not got the establishment. present local authority structure, all of them, in particular They are not big enough and yet it is a job, I believe, in the unfair rate burden on some of the larger authorities, in first-stage planning, for the local authorities to do it because particular the seven libraries that are financed by some they are the people on the spot who know what that ratepayers and used free of charge almost by others. The development will do to their areas. Who better? And if we list is endless, the list of unfairness and inequality is do no trust them to do that, we should not have them at all. endless. I have not heard one member ever of Tynwald Court I do not believe in change for change's sake regarding with any thought and commitment say we should do away any issue, but where there is a need, where there is a definite with local authorities, the opposite, but I have heard every cry for change from the ratepaying public such as in this member of Tynwald Court, either in private or in here, say issue, then I believe that change has got to come. that something has to be done about them, so I cannot I would hope hon. members will support the amendment accept that shelving it for somebody else to handle is good that is before them today so that we can come to a proper government, and I understand why the Chief Minister got definitive decision on whether we move forward and to the position, probably because of the other issues which reform or whether we stand still and we stagnate, but more are about at this moment, where the local government importantly, that members will support an amendment department, which is under pressure with the amount of which will help this hon. Court and the House of Keys work it has got to get through, may even prefer to have it reach a decision once and for all, and it is appropriate that put back. But that is not good govemment when you see we are being asked to do this thing at the end of this century. so much money and the welfare of so many people being We have had time enough. jeopardised because we cannot at this moment handle the problem. Mr Delaney: Mr President, I am sure that every I believe it is decision time and I believe the people of member, certainly the past Ministers for Local Government who think about the problem know it is time and members of the local government department, will the Island for job, wish me to be brief and I intend to be brief, but first of all a decision and it is our unfoftunately if you like, to the opening mover of the resolution quoted me correctly, I make that decision and I would hope that the members do am sure he did, but what is more important than the quote, not pass it off to some poor other members who will follow and I am not going to harp on it, is that if you think of me in here to try and solve it when we, with how many what has happened since I made that statement that he years between us all, could not solve it.

Local Govemment Reform - Reconsideration of Policy -Amended Motion Carried TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, I4th DECEMBER I999 T271

Mr Duggan: Passing the buck. would propose that we would push forward with legislation from the Department of Local Government and the Mr Delaney: It is not the job of us to pass the buck that Environment. That would then have to go towards the way and, although I understand the reason for it to some Council of Ministers which we see are already split and extent, I cannot believe it is the sensible political solution. you merely need to look at the geographical make-up of Two years are coming up, as has been said, to a general the Council of Ministers and their expressed views on local election and everyone rightly will be looking over their govemment reform to see that the Council of Ministers cabbage patch, looking over there at the pump and further would be split. You would therefore have the possibility to the voters, which includes the members of the local of Members of the House of Keys, which is my primary authorities who have some influence in who they vote for, area for looking at legislation, of which two members of but you cannot just get a few votes by jeopardising the the Council of Ministers are Douglas members, one for problem, and the problems are there for everyone to see' the Onchan area, one for Ramsey, all of whom may, under I will support what came forward, not from me, not collective responsibility, be whipped into rejecting the from anyone, but from a govemment department. The legislation as put forward. They are going to have a far recommendation came from the Chief Minister's own greater diffrculty in maintaining a collective vote in the minister, that of all the options open the 12 was the one Council of Ministers if it is based on a select committee of that should be pursued, by the government department Tynwald Court who comes forward with recommendations charged with the responsibility, and if we cannot put that because then the Chief Minister and the Council of to the test in this Court and through legislation, what can Ministers will by obligation have to have a free vote in we do? Because if the ministers and the department at the order to actually push forward their own views. time did not come up with the answer, they should have Now, I do not want to see legislation coming through changed and taken notice of some of the other things, from a department who has already had its belly ripped including the one we have just passed today for millions out on this issue by the Council of Ministers only three ofpounds being spent on an area of the Island which needs months ago, to then go back to the drawing board to come money spending on it. How can we trust their judgement up with legislation with a level of confidence that that will in other things if they could not trust their judgement of go forward to the Council of Ministers for approval this that? They came forward with the recommendation, now time, to then go to the Chief Minister and the Council of let us put it to the test because a decision of some sort has Ministers to come forward with any sense of commitment got to be made and v/e are the people, unfortunatelY, who to it, and we will not achieve a solution. have got to make it. My view would be if we are going to go forward on If the Chief Minister's amendment goes through I this issue we all know where we are going to vote. You do personally will be huppy to serve on this because I spent the numbers game. We have a clear idea of where the enough time on it, as other members did in their time in members of this Court are likely to vote. Aselect committee office, but I will spend it on it again until it is hammered of Tynwald would have the authority which would override out because it affects so many people in this Island in their the government of the day's view. To bring that forward pockets and in what services they receive and I cannot for an open vote would then allow us to advance this cause. accept that what is going on in local government at the So to me, for those people who want to see local moment is in the best interests of the people I used to government reform, the only way forward is getting the represent and you now represent. There has to be a change. support of Tynwald for a select committee, think carefully I am supporting the amendment that has been put on who you propose for that committee and get something forward by Mr Quine, not because I am a member of the which comes through with the full weight of the parliament APG or any other group, but because it is the only sensible of the Isle of Man, rather than going into your corners thing to do. with theAPG one side who will put forwa¡d an amendment because the Council of Ministers have said something Mrs Cannell: Hear, hear. different. It depends on what do you want to achieve? If you want local govemment reform, put your trust in the Mr Shimmin: Mr President, can I firstly state that I parliament of the Isle of Man rather than leaving it to a consider the final comment of the previous speaker to be department with a minister who has already got views absolutely totally wrong. I agree with most of what he said against local government reform. about local government reform, but the absolutely wrong I will be supporting the amendment in the name of the decision would be to support the amendment moved by Chief Minister because I believe that will take us forward the hon. member forAyre, Mr Quine. If we are proposing and neither of the other two alternatives will give a realistic to achieve a result of local govemment reform, which is chance for change. Thank you. my priority within this debate, then we are playing into the hands of those who do not \ilant to have reform if we Mr Rodan: Mr President, I listened to the hon. member move it down the amendment from Mr Quine, the reason forAyre with great interest, Mr Quine, having served with being we have a minister of a department who has views him when he was minister of the department and having on local government, of which we all are aware. We have admired his determination to see things through to a a Council of Ministers, albeit not all were present, who conclusion I am not at all surprised that he has presented have attempted to defer the decision on this issue. We are this amendment here this afternoon because he has pursued now proposing, or Mr Quine, the hon. member for Ayre, with great vigour the question of local government reform

Local Government Reform - Reconsideration of Policy - Amended Motion Carried T212 TYN1WALD COURT, TUESDAY, I4Ih DECEMBER I999 and in faimess took a lot of trouble to listen to various say, taxes and central government services actually consumed and the same principle applies at a local level, so I would caution against that and not necessarily hold that up as a reason for reform because I do not see it as a particularly strong case. Again, similarly the complaint is made that some the local authorities themselves. services are provided by central government for some The result of all this, quite correctly, as he has pointed people but not others, in other words some individuals pay out, is that while the need for reform is not in dispute, and for the same services, ratepayers and taxpayers, and, yes, that is accepted by all authorities, what is in dispute is the they have a valid complaint, but the answer is not how of that reform. necessarily a structural reform but for central government Now, the trouble is one can be determined and try and to charge those services in a proper systematic way, not push through this amendment a decision, but surely one tacked onto legislation, in case anybody should be thinking good government that was the way of doing it, but the principle of charging, t there is not in the apportioning to the rates those services provided by central thorities is the nec government for some parts of the Island which are being some of which delivered through rates directly in other parts ofthe Island. authorities, a very high number, it is suggested, but it seems There does not seem to me anything wrong with that, and to me many of those local authorities are very small, I the smallest local authorities will agree with that principle. would say of a very appropriate size for the job they do, All they ask is, 'Please consult us first, please talk about and their only crime is that they are small. That is their it.' But what they also ask in return, and this came out only crime, but it appears to be questioned, their very very clearly in the seminars, is how is efficiency going to existence. be increased?'And the question that they ask is, what will Now, inevitably a small local authority running a small be the reduction in central govemment taxation if the rates area of several hundred ratepayers is going to discharge go up as a consequence? If the argument is that these its duties that are appropriate to that area and there is no services should be charged through the rates and not great surprise that the responsibilities might be few in through taxation, how much will income tax come down? number and might be small and when you strip everything Because there has to be a balance, surely. They also ask away what it boils down to are actually statutory functions how many government servants, public employees, will, that are being carried out, refuse collection and street ifnot lose theirjobs, not be doing that particularjob ifit is lighting, and they are held up as, 'Oh, this is all they do?' handed back to local authorities to do? If, for example, the So what? The level of rate being applìed is appropriate for argument is that housing should be provided at local level, that specific function. as is the case in several local authorities with the Having small local authorities is not peculiar to the Isle Department of Local Government as a central housing of Man. There are very small local authorities on the authority for the more rural areas, if the idea is that DoLGE adjacent island and they are called parish councils and they no longer runs housing for cerlain parts of the Island, then are called community councils and they have them in the question is, how can it be more efficiently delivered at Northern Ireland as well and their responsibilities are very local level? How will it be more efficient? Because there small, arguably meaningless. But they do carry out a very is a great argument to say that centralising and getting your important local function of being a local focus for economies of scale and administration are more community, a conduit for local opinion to government in appropriate. That has never been spelled out, it has never its wide sense, if you wish. I do not think that should be been quantified, what the savings and the efficiencies will taken away, the value of that should be disparaged in any be in monetary terms. If they had been I think the argument way. might have even been won, but it has never been spelled Now, the hon. member for Ayre stated that in the case out, similarly with the return of first-stage planning to local for reform number one was rationalisation of the rate authorities. This was the second area that was discussed at burden and the fact of the present unfaimess that the rate seminars in great depth. Where is the efficiency? Where is burden was different in urban areas and rural areas. Well, going to be the consistency in decision-making unless you ofcourse it is. The services delivered are quite different. are going to employ extra planning officers on a peripatetic There is no great surprise. It does not make it necessarily basis to go round the Island advising the statutory decision- unfair, it is just the fact. makers? Where is the saving in efficiency and costs in The fact that services are paid for in one area but used that? by others living outside the area - now, again I suggest Then the other area that was held out to local authorities that there is nothing particularly unusual about this. as an advantage for reform was return to local level of Taxpayers have individual interests that might be quite Department of Transport functions - minor road repairs, different from the services that their taxes are going to maintenance of footpaths et cetera - and again local support. There are plenty of single people, plenty of authorities were asking the questions of how that would childless married couples who through their taxation pay be delivered more efficiently, but we were unable to tell for schools, do not have children benefiting from specific them how in monetary terms or in terms of effrciency. It services, for example. I think it can be slightly dangerous was generally held by both sides to be a good idea but it to try and tie in and establish a direct relationship between, could not be proved how efficient it might be and what

Local Government Reform - Reconsideration of Policy - Amended Motion Canied TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, I4th DECEMBER 1999 T273 was concluded was that there was an awful lot more work Mr Cretney: Which one? to be done, an awful lot more research to be done to actually identify the advantages of returning to local authorities, Sir Miles Walker: - I made the quotation that Mr fewer local authorities having amalgamated these particular Cannell recited earlier on. I believe a radical change is functions, because the argument is that for meaningful necessary and I think it is how we get there that is the reform there has to be structural change, there has to be important question, not all the alternative structures. enforced amalgamation to be of the size, the sufficient I think that the proposed structure in appendix 2 of ¡he capacity to make cost-effective delivery of these local paper to which Mr Quine referred and to which his services, but it was never spelled out how more cost- amendment refers, for me does not answer the problems effective it would be and in fairness that question has to be that we have at all. It does not change the structures in any answered and it may well be a select committee will be way of Douglas, Ramsey, Onchan, Castletown or Peel. It able to. It is all spelled out in the pages of the sets out to amalgamate some of the parishes, some of the documentation, what the identified problems are. Perhaps smaller towns, and I pose the question, is it in the parishes the select committee will be able to explore in greater depth and the smaller towns where the fundamental problems the case for reform from the point of view of achieving really are? And I do not believe that that is the case. g erY of local services. e is it has been held, and the A Member: Douglas. h to it, that meaningful reform, i.e. structural change, fewer larger authorities, is a Mr Brown: Down the road. requirement to attract candidates into local govemment' Well, this does not stack up at all. What attracts candidates Sir Miles Walker: It seems to me that the problems into elections is the quality of the individual candidate and are in the larger areas and it may be because the balance of his ability to go campaigning his local area and get the local authorities is wrong and they are big and many of vote out. The size of the authority does not enter into it, as the others are small, but I think there is a more fundamental witness the recent by-election to Douglas Corporation problem than that. (Mrs Cannell and Mr Gilbey: Hear, hear.) and regarding the electoral tumouts to Douglas Corporation or Ramsey Mr Brown: They are always whingeing. or anywhere else, I defy members to prove that they are higher than in many rural authorities. Certainly I represent Mr Cretney: David King. (Laughter) a particular authority, one of the very smallest in the Island, who in their last election had almost a 50 per cent tumout, Sir Miles Walker: That is a matter that should be and which is very, very good and a reflection on the interest the local authority should have the ability to sort out. felt in that particular local community, and you will find that that is quite typical. Mrs Hannan: That is right. Absolutely. So I wish the select committee well. It has got a task to do. It has got a task and I am certain it will be able, without Mr Cretney: Hear, hear. distractions upon it, to focus more deeply upon these impofant questions and to identify a way forward, not the Sir Miles Walker: They are big enough, I would submit. 'if' or the 'when' but the 'how' and it is the 'how' the I think we need a reform of local authorities for the simple Council of Ministers has not been able to identify, or the reason that this hon. Court and the members, I believe, department under this minister or the previous minister, fulfil too many local authority-type functions (Several that would achieve the necessary governing by consent. Members: Hear, hear.) and we should seek to shed You can push anything through if you are a benign dictator, ourselves of them and we cannot do that under the present or a malign dictator, (Laughter) but that is not what structure. government is about. There has to be full consent and that But, hon. members, this suggestion at appendix 2 says is not what has been achieved so far, but perhaps the select do nothing with Douglas. V/e have just taken off Douglas committee can find a way of achieving it. the Villa Marina, a local authority function. It has got to be a local authority-type function, and we are saying there Sir Miles Walker: Mr President, I think this Court is nothing wrong with Douglas, we will leave it alone. would do well to heed the words of the hon. member who has justresumed his seat. (Mr Crowe: Hear, hear.) I found Mr Cannell: It did not function. his contribution very interesting, (Mr Gilbey: Hear, hear.) I think it was a challenging one and the criticism in it was Sir Miles Walker: There is something wrong. constructive. I think that many of the points he raised were Planning, Mr President, again - I make myself clear, I ones that have not been raised in the same way on the hope - I believe should be a central government function floor of this hon. Court, and as I say, I think it would behove in a little place like the Isle of Man and to hand local us well to heed some of the comments that were made. authorities first-stage planning is nothing more than a sop. For my side, I do not move from the position I made I do not believe it answers any of the problems that local clear whenever it was when - authorities are creating. It does not give local authorities any sort of challenging work because any problems, any Mr Shimmin: In 1938! of the more difficult planning will be passed back to central

Local Government Reform - Reconsideration of Policy -Amended Motion Carried "r214 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th DECEMBER I999 govemment. I think if those small issues of planning in lot of their time because they believe in their community. fact could be handed back to local authorities, they should But what \rye are talking about is not about individuals, we government be made into permitted development and nobody should are talking about structures, the structure of be bothered with them and I believe there is a case for versus local govemment. How, in the Isle of Man context, can we make it work? One of the problems I think that is happening and has happened over a period of time is that many of the local authorities have started to evolve, because of the lack of real responsibilities, into statutory lobby groups. They are too many for a town of that size, if you include Janet's encouraged by certain people just purely to lobby on Comer which I do. specific subjects and sometimes that does not work in the best interests of those communities. But that is a matter Mr Brown: It used to be in Malew. that of course individual members of local authorities have to consider themselves. Sir Miles Walker: If you put Janet's Corner and But the fundamental question is local government, and to Malew and Santon you have if we are to have it, why? It was mentioned earlier that we ty houses for a communitY of have had discussions about local government and the Chief ens in my own parish inArborY. Minister stood up and said 25 years ago he can remember houses down Station Park and going to a seminar and trying to be persuaded of change. I without being able to draw on a wider arena of people in can remember going to one, I think it was at the Bradda just ourparish they would be lying empty: what a nonsense. Glen, when Cecil McFee was trying to persuade us to have So housing should certainly go back, but it cannot go back change, and I was a new member of a local authority in to the structure that is proposed in this particular document 1977I think it was. in my view. A radical reform is needed and I think the only way ìve Mr Cretney: Ahead of his time. Mr Brown: [t was going on then. So the point is members say, ''We've got to have change.' But, Mr President, in my time involved with local government - in 1976 I first got elected - to today, we have made fundamental changes to local government, we have actually responsibilities from the parish authorities to those basically destroyed them and we have destroyed them with larger - st to the been to Mr Quine: There will be nothing left. at value t did not Sir Miles Walker: - authorities, make sure the members introduce a rate rebate scheme that was effective to help are elected ratherthan delegates from the local authorities, those less well off who could not afl'ord to pay rates at a and I believe that is the only way we will get there and it higher rate, and what happened is, led by Douglas, the may be burdensome in the interim. But there is no sense at hon. member, as he used to be here, Victor Kneale, argued all in carrying on as we are and pretending or suggesting the case that Douglas was being unfairly rated and other that the problems are just with the smaller local authorities. towns were whilst many of the parishes were paying They are not, hon. members. pennies, and quite honestly that was true. I will not support the amendment moved by the hon. One of the problems is also the services provided. Many member Mr Quine. I think the select committee idea may rural areas provide once-a-fortnight refuse collection. Most take us forward but I rather doubt it. of the towns and villages, if not all, provide a weekly one. That in itself puts a fundamental increase on the burden of points Mr Quine: It will not. rates onto the ratepayers in that area. So one ofthe that was made initially in 'Time for Change'was an issue Sir Miles Walker: But it is worth a chance. It should that I felt was very important because my basic instinct is take us further than Mr Quine's proposals, though, given a that we need effective local government in the Isle of Man fair chance. I will support the Chief Minister's amendment. because without it, then I believe Tlnwald Court gets far too involved in local issues: questions about weeding, Mr Brown: Mr President, as a former Minister for Local questions about a hedge. With the greatest respect, we will Government and the Environment who initiated 'Time for be drawn into it because the responsibility lies with the Change' in 1990 I think it was to try and find a way forward, minister and his department, whereas it used to lie with a all I can say is that there are real problems in trying to get local authority, so the only altemative a member has, a either this hon. Court or local authorities to voluntarily member of the Keys, a member of Tynwald, is actually to agree to go forward to make changes, and I would make raise it in here. But we are meant to be here for the bigger the point that there are some very good members on some issues, we are meant to be here to secure the economy and of the local authorities, who work diligently and give up a the future of the Isle of Man for the long-term future and

Local Government Reform - Reconsideration of Policy -Amended Motion Carried TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th DECEMBER I999 T275 not be drawn into the very small issues, but we are because real thing is, you have got to identify what you want local government has failed, and local government, to government to do. What is it that you really want? And iestructure, to actually deal with this issue effectively, and that is the problem because everybody says, 'Well, I don't the reason that that has happened is because, whereas, yes, really want to lose these controls from my department but there have been considerable consultations and I spent four we should do thatfrom that department' and 'My authority shouldn't have to do this because my people aren't happy', and so it goes round in circles and goes on and on and on. As far as I am concerned regarding the amendment by Mr Quine, while I can fully understand him putting it forward, I have a problem with his report. Now, I am not saying that the reports that we provided were the answer most of us are happy for change as long as it does not and some said the 'Time for Change' second report was in affect the area we represent, because as soon as it does fact weaker than the first one. That was your consultation that, members are lobbied by their members and then there because if we had come with the 'Time for Change 1' and is a problem. Now, I do not have any problem with my just come straight here and gone to legislation, you might area, and I will come back to that when I talk about the have had a more effective basis but you would not have document that is part of the amendment from Mr Quine. got it through here at the time. But look at the report before But the fundamental issue is, what do we want if we us. It is deficient in a number of areas where it does not have local govemment? And we are talking about being really give a lead on how members are to be elected. To radical if we are going to be effective, because if we are me one of the most important things is they should all be not, we are going to make slight changes that will make us elected at the same time so they are all answerable to their feel happier and will do nothing, and we will all be sitting electorate at the same time and not every year have a third there thinki made a change now, of the board looking over their shoulder blaming the other everything' l0 years, somebodY two thirds for everything that has gone wrong in that year. else will de But that is not good All in, all out. Make them stand up and justify. Local enough and whether we like it or not, Tynwald at some authorities in some areas do not produce manifestos, they stage, through its branches, is going to have to bite the do not go and see the people they represent and in some bullet and say we have to make certain changes to make it cases, dare I say, they do not even know their own village happen, and one of the biggest diffìculties you will have is or town, and I am not joking. This is genuine, this, and it is decentralising services back or giving to local authorities a real problem for us. How can you represent people if for the first time some of the functions. One of the myths youdonotun them is, 'Give back to local authorities the planning functions" if you do not hat is I am not aware they had them. So what is that about? thecase and s ofus. The point is you have to determine what is it you want, Well, maybe, but we are talking here about local what are the functions you want a local authority to have, government. how effective do you want them to be and how efficient But look at this report. If you look at it and the must they be and then how is it going to be funded? And if breakdown of the proposed sheading structure you have it is going to work, government has to play a role in the got nine members tor Castletown. Castletown only neecis funding. It is how it funds. Look at the nonsensical situation five members of the local authority, as I would suggest we have at the moment. Housing - 100 per cent funded by does Peel, because the community has difficulty finding government, and we know some of the concerns about nine people to get in there and nine people who will really housing that go on, but there is no responsibility really on work. Five is plenty, and if you had five, all elected at the the local authorities because the money comes from same time they would be far more effective, with respect, elsewhere. in getting things done because they all have to go out at Recently we have just had a piece in the paper about the same time, there is only a small number, and you are this wonderful car park at Shaw's Brow. Great, not a talking about nine in this report to represent 2,958 people. mention it is a hundred per cent funded by government. But then if you look at the whole structure put forward in The whole impression is Douglas Corporation are paying the last report from the Department of Local Govemment for this, and they have been hassling us for 2tlz, three years and the Environment which was circulated by the Chief to get to this stage, even though we have had it in our Minister, you have got Douglas which they say is a budget for two and a half, three years to give them 100 per municipal borough, then you have got the town districts, cent funding to build a car park. All I can say is what I said and Douglas and the others are all towns anyway and to the previous Minister for Local Government, 'If you village, and you have got Douglas, Ramsey, Onchan, have a problem with Douglas, we'll have a car park in Castletown and Peel - a population of 45,974 and you are Castletown a hundred per cent funded from talking about having 52 elected representatives for that government'- amount of people. Then you go to the sheading authorities. You have got 25,740 people represented by 61 elected Mrs Hannan: Hear, hear. And in Peel. representatives. It is a nonsense. It is all out ofproportion. Yõu have got the sheadings with greater numbers of Mr Brown: - because we have a problem just as acute political representation for a vastly smaller population than as theirs, in proportion but just as acute as theirs. So the the main areas of population. You have moved nowhere,

Local Govemment Reform - Reconsideration of Policy - Amended Motion Carried T276 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, I4th DECEMBER 1999

you have gone absolutely nowhere, and all you have got is has ducked the issue, a select committee could be seen as a large number representing a small area, rural areas. And the right way forward, able to report back with I have to say I smiled a lot at the area Rushen. Rushen, recommendations to this hon. Coun and in some way say Port Erin, Port St Mary andArbory coming together - that it is just as well we have a tricameral system, otherwise would be a challenge. we would not be able to progress down this track. So I fully accept something has got to be done. I do not Then we have another amendment from the hon. know if a select committee will have any better luck than member Mr Quine - equally laudable, good points, another anybody else, but I think what a select committee may be way of getting the job done, possibly a more positive way able to do is actually get together all the different reports of getting the job done. that have been done since the 1990s, and if necessary go You know, it is difficult to know where to start with back further, and start evaluating where the whole thing why I should support local government reform. I could has gone \ilrong, why it has not moved forward and what make a list as long as the TT course and back again of those issues are, but most importantly, the remit of the select some of the antics my constituents and the people of committee has to be clear. If you are going to make a change Douglas have had to put up with in the past 12 or 18 it has got to be a change that is effective. It has got to months. provide real responsibilities for local representation at local Then there is the other important strand and that has level. If you do not do that you are wasting your time, and already been alluded to by hon. members this afternoon also government has got to properly fund, and assist in and this evening, a fair and equitable rating system, and I funding, I should say, local government in those areas and will not go into that because it has been well ventilated. provide a proper rate rebate scheme to help those who Certainly in Douglas's case as the population of the Island cannot afford rates at the levels that may be set by them, descend on the capital every day ofthe week using all of and furthermore and most fundamental regardless of the its facilities and then skip off home to the districts to pay cost, ifyou are going to have local government you have their lower rates, that could be seen as marvellous. got to have a rate re-evaluation ofproperties because they are all up the shoot. They have been ever since it was done. Mrs Crowe: What do they get for it? Parking fees. It all needs re-evaluating. It might cost us f3 million, it might cost us f4 million, but that is still cheaper than the Mr Henderson: Then there is the administration system way we are going because we are just dripping money out and is the number of local authorities and combination all the time and it is costing the taxpayer, not the ratepayer, authorities appropriate for a small Island such as ours? and we are only getting away with it because taxation is V/ell, I do not think so for one minute. Certainly the relatively low in the Isle of Man, but if taxation went up framework used in interfacing with the needs of the because of it we would soon get a reaction, we would soon community and communicating with the Department of be looking at how to make local authorities more efficient, Local Government is weli out of sync at times. A much but because it is not through a system that people clearly more streamlined and effective approach is drastically identify we get away with it because tax income keeps required. going up. So something has got to be done. Anyway what annoys me enough to support this motion I do not accept the amendment from the hon. member and amendments? Is it empty council houses lying empty Mr Quine, not because I think he is necessarily wrong, but for months and months and months, workmen loafing in because I do not agree with the report because that report, them saying they are 'Just killing time'? Is it the fact that I think, takes us back and gets the representation all out of any private facilities put into council houses by tenants click in a different way, and I would say if you give it to a can be in danger of being ripped out when they move on? select committee, at least then they can deal with whoever Who becomes the benefactor in that case? Why is this they want, the department, everybody else and come back policy allowed to continue? How are tenants allowed to to this Court and if it is that nothing can be done for another freeze in their own homes with windows so rotten they three or four years, well so be it, but at the moment it is fall out or the curtains blow horizontal with draughts? (Mr just drifting nowhere and something has to be done. Houghton: Hear, hear.) Or is it the huge areas of black mould and damp from water ingress? 'Well, Mr Henderson: Well, Mr President, why do we need we also heard from the hon. member for Garff, local authority reform? We have heard all sorts this Mr Rodan, the big local authorities, if they get bigger, afternoon and this evening. Why is Mr Cannell's motion cannot attract good turnouts at elections. Well, big does on the Tynwald order paper? V/hy do we have an not always mean that it will be marvellous, and I think the amendment from the Chief Minister? Why do we have an hon. Mr Rodan was alluding to the fact that if it was big it amendment from Mr Quine? I am still astonished that the would be able to do something, but I can tell him in the Council of Ministers could not get its act together as the recent local election that he was referring to of course no government of this Island and put local authority on the polling ca¡ds were sent out and in one particular case the agenda. (Mrs Cannell: Hear, hear.) I said it at the time it gates to a polling station were actually locked and people was ducking the issue and unfair for a single member to were driving away. So that is not surprising we had the take this onerous task up and attempt to move a Tynwald turnout that we did and to top it all, even one better that resolution, and I still stand by that. tickled me pink, was to see the tellers sitting at a wallpaper So the amendment by the Chief Minister, as I see it, is paste table with a sheet on in sheeting rain. So why we wholly appropriate in one way. Now, after his government had a low turnout I think \rye are beginning to see.

Local Government Reform - Reconsideration of Policy - Amended Motion Carried TYNWALD COURT TUESDAY, 14th DECEMBER 1999 T277

Is it the Villa Marina fiasco, that fine building which is But then we go on to the hon. minister for the Department of Local Government when we actually examine what they can do and cannot do and when I was alluding to various local authority activities the hon. minister Mr Gilbey kept telling us that in all reality it was nothing to do with his department, the local authority were the autonomous legitimate organisation, they could crack this either. Bad management on with affairs. Well, that is fair enough. So where does that leaves us with the final interpretation y to conectlY Prioritise the that leave us?And is the real issue. Misguided from DoLGE when they finally tell me that, the learned Attorney-General's fine ventures and priorities and people building their own little notwithstanding which I still see as the proper route which empires - that is what the problem is and that is a shame. interpretation, would give legitimate supervision, the local government But what I have to say is this. I want to make a call for go one further and say that it has got to be any local authority reform to incorporate as its first department consistentfailures before they will become involved. Well, principle, either in committee form as the amendment from I do not know how many consistent failures you need or ine Ctrlef Minister or in legislative form from the hon' how consistently bad they want things to get before they member Mr that we examine the local authority Quine, will supervise anything, but anyway, how can we expect Act and all other relevant legislation associated with local to get anything done when they are applying their own in this process or processes or whatever comes authorities rules over and above the standing legislation in my this debate in the powers of supervision and out of opinion? Where does that leave any of us when it comes of Local Government have intervention the Department to attempting to sort out problems thrown up by local when it comes to dealing with local authority anomalies authorities? In a right mess. That is what I think. I would problems as have highlighted, and that is the and such I go so far as to say we do not look in a very good lìght the Minister's earlier comments when he answer to Chief sometimes in this hon. Court or in another place. about what changes can \rye make? This is the was talking The legislation requires a complete review and updating route that we certainly need to go down as partially change to allow for effective interventions. Questions do need to conundrum. At the moment the answer to this long-running be asked, serious questions about the effectiveness of the and have to say it stands that DoLGE are really at times I Local Government Act and associated legislation and its they do behave like wet nellies when it comes to trying to appropriateness in meeting the modern needs of the get some sort of supervision from their good selves. They community when itcomes to local authorities which might seem to be afraid of moving in when it is necessary and be deemed to be in default of their duties to the community offering a firm hand of guidance and even when it is as and ratepayers ofthis Island. Appropriate legislation needs profound a situation as I have illustrated or even worse to be in place which gives the senior management and when procedures are broken. I do get the same old lines executive of the Department of Local Government the full trotted out: 'Oh, we can't interfere'I am told. But I do not backing ofthe legal system and the confidence to act when want them to interfere really. Some guiding supervision they become aware of a default situation and not some would be most helpful and it would solve a lot of the wishy-washy eop-out of consistently failing. Thank you, problems that we have heard here this aftemoon, and as Mr President. you know, I have told them more often than not on many occasions of the problems I have been having and we still Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I have listened to this debate get nowhere. Well, it is just not good enough. I would make with some interest and I think sometimes some of them a call that any select committee or any legislation has within would be better off in one of these Christmas pantomimes its remit relevant legislation that examines the anomalies as far as their input as far as this is concerned because the that I am highlighting here and makes recommendations truth of the matter is there is no political will in this hon. for a review of legislation and something more appropriate Court - and effective put in its place where supervision and interventions are concerned. Mr Corkill: Oh yes there is! Now then, let us have a look at the present picture. As you know, I have asked many questions in this hon. Court Mr Karran: - to touch the situation. I fell for that. and no doubt that is possibly what hon. members were (Laughter) We have only got to see in another place - earlier alluding to about local authority questions, but nonetheless, having said that, I have been alluding to Mr Delaney: Behind you! supervision and the intervention of DoLGE and have asked the learned Attorney-General and his answer to me in Mr Karran: - the other week there with the Public response to this important issue was quite simple. The Health Bill where we have the - Attorney-General said, 'The department is empowered to conduct inquiries into the activities of local authorities and The President: Hon. member, the Public Health Bill is to require reports and returns from authorities with respect out. Stay with your subject. to the exercises of their functions', and it goes on to illustrate various other things, and I was quite grateful for Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, the situation is that there was that interpretation. no political will because we were trying to get the smaller

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local authorities to have to be charged for the services they 'Oh, we'll have a select committee.' That is the kiss of were being p for nothing. death. I was just reading a proposal that came that is to do You have Mã nothing and with the next item. We were talking about a select and they had a select on the other s Y Paylng slx committee for an ombudsman pence and then their taxpayers are paying again so that committee and by God they made sure it was killed off, Maughold can have certain services, and I wanted to change with the membership of that committee. We never saw the law but of course 'No, no, tomorrow, jam tomonow. anything and we know that if we support the select Somehow it will go away.' committee we will be seeing nothing this side of any When I listen to people like the hon. member for Garff election and you are running away from the situation (Mr talking about the only problem is they are only small. We Quine: Hear, hear.) and I think people in this hon. Court all know that it is an absolute scandal the way the rates are should start being honest about the situation (Several in the Isle of Man, (A Member: Hear, hear.) and it is an Members: Hear, hear.) and say that we should support the absolute scandal that the urban areas are subsidising the hon. member's proposal. rural areas ofthis Island and how do youjustify the present We have seen the way it has been done in another place where we have seen the vested interest to keep the status quo. We have a situation where this is going to be absolutely aggravated out of all proportion when people come clean about IRIS, the incinerator and we have already got the water rates that are going to increase twice over over the next couple of years, and what we have at the moment is a A Member: Little Londo¡1r. (Laughter) situation where we have local government with its vested interest at the present time where we have got the anomalies Mr Delaney: Turn the parish pumP on! over the whole rating system. We are not going to see anything. We have seen no action in the other place with a Mr Karran: - of Michael. piece of legislation and we will see no action in this hon. Court. Mr North: That woke him up! I hope that this Court will support the hon. member for Ayre because this is the highest Court of the land. We Mr Karran: No, the moon is not out yet, sir. (laughter) should instruct the executive to come up with something Now, I think, Eaghtyrane, that we should not support the and then let us get it debated as far as I am concemed. Let minister and we should not support the proposal by the us get off the fence. Let us stop trying to pretend that there mover. We should support the hon. member forAyre and I is no problem, and I wish the likes of the hon. member for know I have it right because I am accused ofbeing in the Castletown would not be just as bad on the other side. He APG by the government and I am accused of being in the knows that the only way twe are going to get action on govemment by the APG. local authorities in this Island is to get a Bill in another chamber and his govemment should be providing it, and I Mr Duggan: Divide Peter! hope this hon. Court will support the proposal of trying to get someone off the fence so that we can actually get Mr Karran: So it is nice to be an Independent around something done because, believe me and mark my words, here. I know people get amnesia in this Court over what I say, but we have seen nothing as far as rate increases until we Mr Delaney: In your own pantomime! see what is going to happen with incineration and IRIS. Unless there is going to be some new form of taxation, Mr North: As a double agent! they will be on the rates and this issue will become a crisis within this Island within the next five years. Mr Cannan: Go and live in Little London! Mr Singer: Mr President, it will not come as a surprise Mr Karran: I believe we should support the to any hon. members here to know that I certainly support amendment by the hon. member forAyre because the fact the reorganisation of local government and I feel that it is is we have heard from the member for Castletown here urgently needed and that there is an urgent need for the and he says it is ridiculous, the proposal that we are going reduction in the number of local authorities, and it is to have nine local authority members and there should only interesting to see how different members interpret different be a need for five. He is the one that is always ranting on members' speeches depending on which side of the fence about procedures in this hon. Court and in another place. they are on. For example, the hon. member for Rushen, If he suppoled the hon. member for Ayre there would be Sir Miles Walker, felt that the hon. member for Garff's something in place to debate so we could amend. At the speech was thought-provoking and presented new moment we have got jam tomorrow, we are all right, we questions. From my point of view the speech was a back- are looking after our Maughold residents and we are to-the-wall speech, a very defensive speech. Whilst the looking after, bar the hon. member for Rushen, our proposals were abandoned by the Chief Minister when he residents of Arbory and the likes, and we have got other could find no overall majority in his Council of Ministers, members here and I am just amazed at their naivety of the fact is that three quarters of the members of this hon.

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Court were not consulted before the government chose to amendment by the hon. member forAyre is the right way abandon any policy of local government reorganisation, forward and it is the starting point and therefore I will and that is why I very much welcome the fact that Mr support it. Cannell placed this particular item on the agenda so that we could at least have a debate. Mr Braidwood: Mr President, first of all I would thank When you have sat on a local authority you know that the Chief Minister for circulating the paper from the Department of Local Government and the Environment on local government reform. I found it very informative, but unfortunately I cannot support his amendment. I have to go along with the amendment proposed by the hon. msmber forAyre, Mr Quine. It has already been mentioned that no decision has been made on local govemment reform since 1934, 65 years ago when it was first talked about. Gosh, procrastination. 'We have heard it again this evening. Proposals were put to have adequate resources both in finance and manpower forward in 1991 for six district authorities. That was to carry these out. eventually amended to l2 authorities, 13 authorities, when The necessary efficiencies can only be achieved by we went to 29. Two at one stage there was talk about. having larger authority areas, with members prepared to Now, the hon. member for Garff, Mr Rodan, and also take on more work and more responsibility.The only way the hon. member for Rushen, Sir Miles Walker, mentioned to introduce these efficiencies is to reduce the number of about decentralisation and I agree there should be some local authorities and encourage them to take full part and decentralisation of government. However, I was fortunate be responsible fordecisions in their areas. There is no doubt enough to be in attendance at those seminars that the that this is the very position to which many local authorities Department of Local Government and the Environment wish to move. They do want more to do than to look after arranged. When it was mentioned to some parish their lamp-post and their park benches. They want more authorities, 'Oh, the department are thinking of giving up than the title of 'commissioner' and to keep the rates to a their housing to you' they held their hands up in horror: minimum as their main concern. Unfortunately it does they did not want the responsibility. The hon. member for appear that there are others who want the glory and not Onchan was quite right. the responsibility. The public recognise the clear lack of power given to Mr Cretney: He usually is. their local electorate and show little or no interest in local matters. Mr Braidwood: Building control offtcers go out from Now, it is a fallacy to state that if local government the department to those authorities who do not have a were reorganised to create larger authorities the small building control officer. They are not charged. Onchan, authorities' identities would disappear. I would hope that Douglas, Ramsey have their own building control officer. the enthusiasm ofthe elected representatives would ensure The hon. member for Castletown mentioned one of the the identification of those smaller authorities within the problems whole. trying tok This argument appeared on a much greater scale in local they migh government reorganisation in the United Kingdom in 1973 my God, it would put so many pence on the rates.' and all these arguments against reform took place then. However, all the small villages and hamlets have not Mr Brown: Not by me: I never said that. disappeared. In fact they now have a role in forming the greater overall structure, and that is exactly what would Mr Braidwood: Mr President, a decision has to be happen here. made. We only have to look at this paper: the Personally I would support the original proposal of six recommendation is there from the department. The best authorities. Adoption of that policy would have some real way forward is to adopt the 12-sheading proposal. meaning, and I certainly disagree with Mr Shimmin when (Mr Delaney: Hear, hear.) he commented on the select committee, because a select I think the department has made a compromise. They committee will not come to any other choices than we have have put it in the sheading authorities so the smaller parish now. All they will achieve will be delay. In the end the authorities are amalgamated together and they have kept selectcommittee will have to come down to a compromise. out the town and district authorities. That compromise is the very amendment which is being Mr Singer, the hon. member for Rírmsey, was quite right: put forward by the hon. member forAyre and it does bear if the legislation comes through it can be amended. repeating. I repeat what Mr Kanan said, it is very important, This Court is the highest in the land. The amendment betause the hon. member for Castletown talked about he by Mr ntroduce wanted to see this in the legislation and that in the legisla s on the legislation. Well, once the legislation is before members it reform ber 1999 can then be amended - that is the whole point - to include to the Council by the Department of Local Govemment members' suggestions, and therefore I believe that the and theEnvironment. Parliamentwill decide. The Council

Local Govemment Reform - Reconsideration of Policy -Amended Motion Carried T280 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, I4th DECEMBER 1999 of Ministers can bring forward that legislation and the Court today and impose legislation on our elected legislation is there for a l2-sheading proposal. Let us make communities around the Island, that is nothing more than a decision now and go forward with the amendment in the dictatorship, and I really do believe that we have to work demonstrate name of Mr Quine. with the authorities to clearly that there are advantages in reform and then hopefully the communities Mr Cretney:VotelVote! of the Island will work with us, but I really would urge the Court not to support the amendment of Mr Quine's to Mrs Hannan: Vainstyr Loayreyder, we have heard a impose legislation on ourelected communities. Thank you, number of comments today about democracy and about Mr President. getting things done and being decisive. What we are talking about is local authorities. We are talking about the people The President: Reply, hon. member. out there that are looking after the everyday running of their local communities, and what is being suggested this Several Members: Hear, hear. aftemoon, this evening now, is we are going to now impose it without talking to these people, without talking to them, Mr Cannell: Thank you, Mr President. Dealing with without listening to what they have got to say and I would the last point first, I cannot see how legislation to be brought have thought a select committee of this hon. Court could before the democratic branches of this hon. Court can be do that, could listen to them and talk to them. We have viewed as dictatorship. (Several Members: Hear, hear.) heard all these comments today about once and for all it We are submitting legislation then which can be hacked has got to be sorted out. Nothing in a democracy is once about, as I found to my cost in my very early days here. I and for all. Things are changing all the time. We are human am still wet behind the ears in thinking that this would not and there will be somebody coming along after us and provoke a full debate this evening. I am, however, looking they will want to change things yet again. forward to Father Christmas coming a week on Friday, Something mustbe done. Yes, something mustbe done, but seriously, I do not think that that could be viewed as but that is what people say when they do not actually know being dictatorship. what to do. From the hon. member for Onchan we have heard about pantomimes, and this is really what we have Mr Downie: A week on Saturday, isn't it? It is at our developed into here. I would have thought if the Council house. of Ministers are saying the parliament can have a select committee, then I would have thought that as Mr Cannell: Ah, well, we are very much ahead of the parliamentarians we would grasp that to try to develop a times in Onchan. local authority set-up that we in the future can be proud I am very pleased that this has evoked such passion. of. I have no problem at all with consulting them, with We heard that there is no political will for this from the consulting the public, and I think that is part of ourjob, is hon. colleague for Onchan, Mr Karran. Well, if this is not here to look and to listen and not just decide that political will when we have spentztl2 hours on it, I do not government knows best, because government does not know what is; it is certainly political interest. always know best. But may I be not over-presumptuous in not going through everybody's remarks and commenting on them Mrs Crowe: Mr President, I do agree with the hon. (Several Members: Hear, hear.) but rather taking the member for Peel, who has just resumed her seat. Has general tenor of the debate - anyone demonstrated that joining these smaller authorities is going to be cost-efficient? Has anyone shown that local Several Members: Vote! authorities in the larger areas are more efficient than our smaller authorities? Not necessarily. We hear every week Mr Cannell: - all right, which I will sum up as seeing complaints from the Douglas members about the authority that there appears to be an almost universal and the inefficiency of that authority. If that is the case, acknowledgement that 'Something must be done.' It is an join it to the ever-efficient Onchan authority. acknowledgement that reform is required however it is undertaken. Mrs Hannan: Yes. I see it as three camps here, number 1, happy to go along perhaps, although I did not hear much support for Mr Cannell: It will cost them. that, with the Council of Ministers shelving the whole thing, not many, in fact I do not know whether there were any, Mrs Crowe: Well, whatever. If you are looking for except presumably they stick to their own position reform, we are not in this Court a dictatorship. The people themselves, though in fact you might argue thatif the Chief that serve on these local communities have been elected Minister is coming along with an amendment to do to their position by the people in that community. If we something else he is not even happy with the decision they want reform we must seek it with co-operation. made originally, so let us discount that camp. The second We have a choice today, we go for dictatorship with the one is the Chief Minister's select committee notion, which amendment from Mr Quine or conciliation with the appears to have considerable support but does come in the amendment from the Chief Minister, because certainly it option that it will probably be knocked out until after the would appear to me that if we are going to stand in this next general election and even then we will probably

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struggle to pick it up because the membership who come In the Council - in after that may well not agree to do that whatever or to even continue with it, and then you have the third camp For: The Lord Bishop, Messrs Lowey, Waft, Kniveton, which is to support the thinking of the hon. member for Radclffi and Mrs Christian - 6 Ayre, Mr Quine, with his amendment too, which, as I say, actually does promise rather less than dictatorship, but Against: Messrs Delaney and Crowe - 2 whichever way you look at it, the main purpose which this item tonight, this evening, has secured is that it has not The President: In the Council, hon. members, 6 votes allowed the Council of Ministers to get away with fudging have been cast in favour of the amendment, 2 votes against. the issue. By shelving local govemment reform it has The amendment carries. refocused attention on it and I think it would be fair to say Now, the resolution as amended becomes the substantive that the Council of Ministers know now that there is more motion and against that I will put the amendment in the than enough interest to kick this thing along, which is why name of the hon. member forAyre, Mr Quine. Will those they allowed an amendment to go forward. in favour of the hon. member for Ayre amendment please It is still a complete mystery to me how the Department say aye; against, no. The noes have it. of Local Government's submission to the Council of Ministers was unable to carry the day, but perhaps it was A divisionwas calledfor andvoting resulted asfollows: just the timing of it that \t/as wrong where we switched ministers at the Department of Local Govemment. As I In the Keys - remarked before, the hon. Mr Gilbey, I presume, did vote in favour of having his department's way forward taken For: Messrs Quine, Houghton, Henderson, Duggan, by the Council of Ministers. Maybe he did, maybe he did Braidwood, Mrs Cannell, Messrs Singe4 Karran and not; we will probably never know. Cannell - 9 But in general it has been a debate which has stimulated Messrs Gilbey, Cannan, Rodan, North, Sir Miles the mind of those who have been through it many times Against: Walker Mrs Crowe, Messrs Brown, Cretney, Shimmin, before, I am sure, and I am sure they are saying 'Not again', Downie, Mrs Hannan, Messrs Bell, Corkill, Gelling and but I had to have a go at it. I am pleased I did. I hope you the Speaker - 15 do not mind the imposition of a debate to continue on this. I am content to leave it all, I think, to the vote, you will be The Speaker: Mr President, the motion fails in the pleased to hear. I will stick to my original resolution. The House with l5 votes cast against, sir, but 9 votes cast for. two amendments will be put and whichever comes out of the three ways of doing this, at least it has not allowed the In the Council - thing to die. I beg to move, sir. For: Messrs Delaney and Crowe - 2 The President: Hon. members, the resolution is set out paper. have two at item 29 on the order To that resolution I -^;-.1, TLo I n¡) urr'.vlz,Flichnn ilf ooc¡" Èvf aur¿t¡ t, Wa{¡ Knhtotnn / ^t6Øt,rot. -), amendments, the first in the name of the hon. Chief Radcliffe and Mrs Christian - 6 Minister and the second in the name of the hon. member for Ayre, Mr Quine. Both have been circulated to you on The President: In the Council 2 votes have been cast white papers. I propose to put them in the order they were in favour of that amendment, 6 votes against. That tabled and those in favour of the Chief Minister's particular amendment fails to carry. amendment standing part of the resolution please say aye; I will now put the resolution as amended to the Court. against, no. The ayes have it. Will those in favour please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. A div is i o n w as c all e d fo r ønd v ot in g re s ult e d as fo I I ow s : A divßionwas calledfor andvoting resulted asfollows: In the Keys - In the Keys - For: Messrs Gilbey, Rodan, North, Sir Miles Walker Mrs Crowe, Messrs Brown, Cretney, Shimmin, Downie, For: Messrs Gilbey, Quine, Rodan, North, SirMilesWalken Mrs Hannan, Messrs Bell, Corkill, Gelling and the Mrs Crowe, Messrs Brown, Houghton, Henderson, Speaker - 14 Cretney, Duggan, Braidwood, Shimmin, Downie, Mrs Hannan, Messrs Singer Bell, CorkiII, Cannell, Gelling Against: Messrs Cannan, Quine, Houghton, Henderson, and the Speaker - 2I Duggan, Braidwood, Mrs Cannell, Messrs Singe¡ Karran and Cannell - l0 Against: Mr Cannan, Mrs Cannell and Mr Karran - 3

The Speaker: M¡ President, the amendment carries in The Speaker: Mr President, the motion carries in the the House with 14 votes cast for, 10 votes cast against, sir. House, 21 votes cast for, 3 votes against, sir.

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In the Council - Mr Lowey: No, I would like to propose the hon. member of the Council, Mr Waft. For: The Lord Bishop, Messrs Lowey, Waft, Kniveton, Radcliffe, Mrs Christian, Messrs Delaney The President: A seconder? and Crowe - I Mrs Christian: I beg to second Mrs Hannan, Mr Against: None President.

The President: Hon. members, in the Council, 8 votes Mr Radcliffe: I beg to second Mr Waft. have been cast in favour, no votes against. I declare the resolution carried. Mr Quine: Could I propose Mr Crowe, sir, please. Hon. members, we have been talking local authority and earlier today Royal Assent was given to the Villa Mr Henderson: I second Mr Crowe. MarinaAct. Hon. members, with its passage I believe it is fitting that d Mr Delaney: I second Mr Crowe, Mr President. by Dougla o effectively b Sir Miles Walker: Could I propose Mr Lowey. (Several h members. Mrs Crowe: I would like to second Mr Lowey. Hon. members, we move to item 30. (lnterjections) Oh, the committee you wish to have appointed at this stage. Mr Duggan: I will second Mrs Crowe, sir. Fine. (l,aughter) Having come back to standing orders, nominations, please. Mrs Crowe: Everyone is seconding me, Mt Duggan.

Mr Duggan: Mr President, I move Mr Quine, sir. Mr Cretney: Can I go home? (Laughter)

Mrs Cannell: I beg to second, Mr President. The President: Hon. members, this is no laughing matter. Let us deal with it in a more civil manner. Learned Mr Gelling: I propose Mr Cannell. Clerk, have you been able to record the nominations?

Mr Gilbey: Could I propose Sir Miles Walker. The Clerk: Mr President, subject to correction, I think I have. Mr Henderson: I propose Mr Delaney, sir. The President: If, learned Clerk, we have the voting Mr Singer: I second Mr Delaney. papers circulated you could then read the names of those nominated to the Court and the Court will vote for five Mr Radcliffe: I second Sir Miles Walker. members of the committce. Are you ready?

Mr Corkill: I beg to second Mr Cannell. The Clerk: Yes

Mr Downie: I would like to move Mr Braidwood. The President: Hon. members, the lea¡ned Clerk will now read out the names of those nominated. Mr Shimmin: I second Mr Braidwood. The Clerk: It is my understanding that those proposed Mrs Crowe: I would like to propose Mr Speaker. and seconded are, from the Council, Mr Crowe, Mr Delaney, Mr Lowey and Mr'Waft, and in the Keys, Mr Mr Corkill: Can I nominate Mr Bell, Mr President. Bell, MrBraidwood, MrCannell, Mrs Crowe, MrsHannan, Mr Quine, Sir Miles Walker and Mr Speaker. Sir Miles Walker: Could I second Mr Speaker. The President: Vote for five, hon. members. Mr Brown: I propose Mrs Hannan. Mr Henderson: Sorry, Mr President, could the Clerk Mrs Crowe: I would like to second Mrs Hannan. go through the Keys members again?

Mrs Cannell: I would like to propose Mrs Crowe. The Clerk: The Keys members are Mr Bell, Mr Braidwood, Mr Cannell, Mrs Crowe, Mrs Hannan, Mr Mr Cretney: I would like to second M¡ Bell. Quine, Sir Miles Walker and Mr Speaker.

Mr Braidwood: I propose nominations closed, Mr The President: Hon. members, in the Council the Lord President. Bishop will be the teller.

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The Speaker: In the Keys the hon. member for Ramsey, The President: The ones who had no votes at all do Mr Singer. not register in standing orders.

A ballot took place. Mr Cannell: Do they stay in or go?

The President: Hon. members, the outcome of the The President: They are already out. ballot: Mr Crowe, 7 votes; Mr Delaney, 13 votes; Mr Lowey, 8 votes; Mr Waft, 5 votes; Mr Bell, 15 votes; Mr Mr Cannell: Right. Braidwood, 18 votes; Mr Cannell, 25 votes; Mrs Crowe, 10 votes; Mrs Hannan, l7 votes; Mr Quine, 13 votes; Sir The President: V/ould the same tellers act, please, with Miles Walker, 17 votes; and Mr Speaker, 12 votes. Now, the Lord Bishop in the Council. hon. members, out of that field four members have achieved the requisite support and they are Mr Braidwood, Mr Brown: Mr President, could we have the names Mr Cannell, Mrs Hannan and Sir Miles Walker and I clarified, please, sir? declare them elected, but the Court will vote again on the same remaining candidates, if you get my meaning, on the The President: Have you all got your voting papers? remaining candidates without alteration, for one vacancy. The learned Clerk will read out the remaining candidates' The voting papers, I think, have been circulated to you. names. The learned Clerk will read out the names of the remaining candidates and you will vote for one. The Clerk: In the Council: Mr Delaney, in the Keys, Mr Bell, Mr Quine and Mr Speaker. The Clerk: Mr President, the candidates remaining in the second ballot, from the Council, are Mr Crowe, Mr A third ballot took place. Delaney, Mr Lowey and Mr Waft, and in the Keys, Mr Bell, Mrs Crowe, Mr Quine and Mr Speaker. The President: Hon. members, the outcome of the ballot: Mr Delaney, 2 votes; Mr Bell, l5 votes; Mr Quine, The President: For the Council I would ask the Lord 8 votes; Mr Speaker, 7 votes. Again no candidate has Bishop to act again as teller, please. qualified. S/ould you get the papers out, please, learned Clerk. I propose to eliminate from the next ballot the name Again the hon. member for Ramsey, Mr The Speaker: of the candidate who secured the least votes in that ballot Singer. and that is the hon. MrDelaney. The Court will have three names presented to it and will elect one member to the A second ballot took place. committee. The leamed Clerk will now read out the names of the remaining candidates. Will the Lord Bishop act as The President: Hon. members, the outcome of that teller for the Council again, please. ballot: Mr Crowe, I vote; Mr Delaney, 4 votes; Mr Bell, 12 votes; Mrs Crowe, 1 vote; Mr 8 votes; Mr Quine, The Speaker: lv{r Singer. Speaker, 6 votes. No-one has managed to achieve the nècessary support. Now, standing orders require me to drop The President: Hbn. members, you have your ballot one candidate, the bottom candidate, at this stage. There papers. The learned Clerk will now read out the names of are two candidates, both with equal votes at the lower end the remaining candidates. of the scale and they are Mr Crowe and Mrs Crowe. Would the Court agree that we ignore the order to eliminate both The The remaining candidates are Mr Bell, Mr of those candidates? Clerk: Quine and Mr Speaker. Mrs Crowe: Yes. Please. The President: For one vacancy, hon. members. Mr Lowey: We did not get any votes on Mr Waft. We did not get any votes. A fourth ballot took place.

The President: Hon. members, I cannot report votes The President: Hon. members, the result of the ballot: that have not been cast and hon. members who have got Mr Bell, 18 votes; Mr Quine, 7 votes; Mr Speaker, ó votes. no votes have not appeared here as having any votes at all. I declare Mr Bell duly elected. In other words Mr Lowey and Mr'Waft did not receive any support atall. (lnterjections) Now, if you would agree that thè names of the hon. members Mr Crowe and Mrs Manx Legal System - Investigation - the ballot we will proceed to Crowe be eliminated from Amended Motion Carried vote on the remaining candidates on the paper.

Mr Cannell: The only thing is, Mr President, does that The President: Hon. members, \rye move on to item 30 include the exclusion of those who did not get any votes? and I call upon the hon. member for Michael, Mr Cannan.

Manx Legal System - Investigation - Amended Motion Carried T284 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, I4th DECEMBER 1999

Mr Cannan: Thank you, Mr President. I beg to move: that it would be better for the Council of Ministers to appoint a commission under the chairmanship of a person That Tynwald is of the opinion that a select with legal qualifications who does not practice and has committee offive members be appointedto investiSate and not practised law in the Island to investigate and report on report onthe regulatory and disciplinary procedures, and the regulatory and disciplinary procedures which apply to related matters, which apply to those practising law in the those practising law. There may be that suggestion before Isle of Man. the Court and I would welcome that suggestion if it was made. I have no problem with the suggestion, excellent Item 30, the Manx legal system, is an impoftant matter suggestion, in preference to a select committee because it to a great many people in the Isle of Man because a lot of would be seen to be taken out of the confines of the Isle of people require legal services and they have no option but Man, any personal prejudices that anybody would have, to use those legal services which are self-regulating and an independent chairman from outside the Isle of Man - almost a law unto themselves. I place this motion on the agenda not for any personal The President: Hon. member, are you speaking to the reasons but because a growing number of people from all amendment or not? parts of the Island, and I say from all parts of the Island, are or have been dissatisfied with the actions of certain Mr Cannan: I have not mentioned the word advocates acting on their behalf and dissatisfied with the ' amendment', Mr President. attitude and response of the Advocates Disciplinary Tribunal to their complaints. The job of elected members The President: I know, you are very careful not to do is to represent the views of people. so, but you are picking every word contained in it, and I People who have made complaints to the Advocates will let you proceed, sir, because you are indicating a line Disciplinary Tribunal have a grievance, real or imagined I to the Court that may well enable the Court to advance do not know, but they do say they have a grievance, that this proposition effectively. they are unlikely to receive any redress of grievance, as they perceive the Advocates Disciplinary Tribunal and the Mr Cannan: Thank you, MrPresident.I really realised Isle of Man Law Society to be too close to each other and there was an amendment, (Mr Cretney interjecting) the self-interest and reputation of the advocates themselves However, if there is this suggestion I would suggest that is more important than justice and a fair deal to their clients. the appointment of the independent chairman should be In brief the complaining client does not believe he receives on the advice of the United Kingdom's Lord Chancellor's a fair, balanced and impanial hearing. Those are the views department and not, repeat not, on advice obtained locally. which a number of people, many of whom have made It should be seen to be absolutely fair and impartial (Mrs themselves high profile, perceive about the treatment they Cannell: Hear, hear.) and the reason for that is that the are receiving, and whether it is real or imagined I do not commission would need full public credibility and know, but there must be cause for concern. credence. I will not go into details of any particular case, but I can Again for reasons of public credibility, if a commission assure members I have been sent several case histories is the wish of this Court ancl if the suggestion comes which must cause concern to any fair-minded person. forward, and I will completely concur with it, it will need Indeed the revelations revealed in answer to a series of to have a timescale, I believe, of six months. It must not questions in the House of Keys two weeks ago must have be allowed to drag on, there must be certain guidelines given members cause for concern, and so to restore general that it needs to report back to this Court just as if a select public credence in the Manx legal system I place the motion committee was established. that a select committee of five members be appointed to Finally there is one matter on my motion which is that investigate and report on the regulatory and disciplinary not only the disciplinary and regulatory matters but also procedures, and related matters, which apply to those there should be any related matters looked into too. It practising law in the Isle of Man. Such an investigation should not be narrowly confined just to disciplinary and those practising law, who have nothing to hide, to conceal regulatory matters. I believe that any related matters should and have confidence in themselves, should welcome and also come under the gaze of the chairman in the interests it should also on the other hand give a measure of of flexibility. I would not wish a chairman, whether it is a confidence to those that feel aggrieved. I will say it again: select committee or anything else, to be restricted when if those practising law in the Isle of Man have an open he feels that he needs to look at some side issues. So the book and wish to be transparent, have nothing to hide, motion on the order paper is that Tynwald has a select nothing to conceal and self-confidence in the proper committee to investigate and report on the regulatory and manner in which they conduct their business they, I assume, disciplinary procedures and related matters which apply would welcome an investigation. to those practising law in the Isle of Man. I hope that is I had originally thought to place a motion to establish a supported. Royal Commission but was dissuaded by the answer of I would support fully any other proposal that happened the Chief Minister to a supplementary question of mine in to come before this Court this evening, but I would ask, in the House of Keys two weeks ago when the Chief Minister putting any proposals that may come, they bear in mind stated that he would oppose a Royal Commission. It may the need for related matters to be included in the brief for be that during the course of this debate there is a suggestion the chairman.

Manx Legal System - Investigation - Amended Motion Carried TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, I4th DECEMBER 1999 T285

Mr President, you have the amendment, I have the Now, the Council of Ministers feel that the appointment amendment, and doubtless it will be there - of a commission to provide advice on both the disciplinary situation and the need for a wider-ranging review would The President: There is no amendment as yet, sir' be helpful to Tynwald and to the public interest generally as a means of offering assurance that the Island's legal Mr Cannan: - but in the meantime I beg to move. services are properly established and supervised. Now a debate such as this can, if we are not careful, a lawyer-battering exercise. Mr Lowey: I beg to second, sir, and reserve my remarks. develop into something of Now, for every case won there is a case lost and with every who is The President: Now, Chief Minister, you have a fair case lost there is likely to be someone discontented Now, the legal profession is larger wind. (l,aughter) with the legal system. then it has everbeen and the volume of business it transacts and we all have heard of instances where the Mr Gelling: Mr President, the proposal we are asked is enormous service provided was perhaps not up to expectations. Now, to consider in this motion is that there should be a review a debate again like this does offer the opportunity for those ofthe regulatory and disciplinary procedures that relate to instances to be trotted out as though they were the normal the legal profession on the Island. Now, let me say at the service provided and we end up a with a catalogue of outseithai the Council of Ministers support that proposal. failures and give the impression that the whole legal 10 years since the Clothier commission which It is profession is incompetent or worse. Island's legal services and it was looked broadly at the Now, it is not my purpose to try and say that all then that they reported. advocates are faultless, far from it, but so that we do not Clothier was very positive Now, as regards discipline, get things out of proportion I would like to take the related to theAdvocates Disciplinary and his only comment opportunity of this debate to actually pay tribute to the he said 'appears to work well'. Now, the Tribunal which legal profession on the Island. When you think of it it is largely home-grown and it is a gratifying aspect of the recent economic and professional development of the Island that the legal profession has drawn into its ranks substantial numbers of our brightest young people, and as a profession it is more go-ahead and dynamic then it has practices Now, in the 10 years since Clothier, ideas and ever been, I would suggest. have developed and it is appropriate to review existing I believe that the quality of the profession has never to arrangements to see if they require amendment in order been higher and that the Island is well served and it would keep pace with changing circumstances and ideas. On this be my hope that if Tynwald supports the amendment that I the Council of Ministers is at one with the hon. member propose, the investigation and its outcome will demonstrate for Michael. Where the Council takes a slightly different óuidetermination and that of the profession itself that the view is on the vehicle to undertake the proposed legal profession should be properly regulated and that it investigation. Now, it seems to the Council of Ministers will sérve to enhance the reputation of the profession and that this is not an aÞpropriate task for a parliamentary confirm that the nuhlic is risht to have confidence in it. committee. Far better to appoint a commission of mixed In moving the motion on our order paper the hon. off-Island and on-Island experience with some legal member for Michael'has suggested that we have dropped knowledge and a breadth of other experience. We can then out 'and related matters'. Now, in discussing this we were receive a report which will be free from any accusation of specifically wanting to address what has become a concern political axe-grinding. and that is the disciplinary matters, because we want them Now, specifically the Council of Ministers suggests that to report early. Our fear would be that if we left it totally the commission would be chaired by someone from off- wide open with an open remit such as a Clothier report we Island who is legally qualified. Now, the remaining wouldbe two years before we would have anything back. members, and we have open minds on whether the That is why we have split the amendment into two and commission should be three or five persons, could be drawn that is that that commission should report on any other from the Island but not from the legal profession' Now, matters that they feel should be reviewed, but as a such an arrangement should give us a report in which we secondary part, because we would hope, as the hon. and, I would suggest, the legal profession and the people member has said, that we can get something back very, of the Island can have some confidence. very quickly and therefore we would rather it be left to the In drafting the amendment the Council of Ministers has regulatory and disciplinary procedures and also for them taken the opportunity of adding a second element to the to report on the need for perhaps another full Clothier remit. Now, the Clothier Commission did a thorough job revlew. when it reported in 1990 and we do not want to be digging So that is the way we have addressed it and again just up the plant too frequently to look at the roots to make commenting on what the mover said when he moved the sure it is all right. But there is a requirement to revisit the motion and that was that I had said in answer to a question territory covered by Clothier, I would suggest, from time two weeks ago, and I think, if I remember rightly, what I to time and what we would propose as a second element had said was that I had not been inundated with complaints to the remit is that the commission should offer a view on about lawyers in the Island and therefore I had no evidence the timing and frequency for a new Clothier-style report. at that time which would support a commission.

Manx Legal System - Investigation -Amended Motion Canied T286 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, I4th DECEMBER I999

'We have discussed this in the Council and I believe I accept that we cannot draw a comparison with England that this would set the commission up much more quickly and Wales as to the level of complaints, I think that is and we would get something from which then, as I have transparent, at least not until we have in place here on the already said, Tynwald I think and the profession themselves Island a more open system of regulation and discipline for would have more confidence in the reputation of this Island. advocates. However, I am aware of a number of cases and Mr President, I therefore beg to move: these cases have caused me deep concern in a number of respects and I shall draw a little later on what I believe are For the words after 'That'substitute - the lessons to be learned from those cases. But staying for the time being with the matter of self- 'the Council of Ministers appoint a commission under regulation, if its continuation in England and Wales is in the chairmanship of a person with legal qualifications question, then an even greater question can be raised here who does not practise andhas not practised in the Island on the Island. In the UK there is the Off,rce of Supervision to- of Solicitors, staffed by full-time professionals including lawyers and the independent staff of this office investigate (a) investigate and report on the regulatory and complaints and they allegedly investigate them disciplinary procedures which apply to those independently. The work of the OSS is supervised by the an independent practising law in the Island; and legal services ombudsman, officer of both government and the Law Society. From there there is of to the high court in cert ain circumstances. (b) advise on wherher and with what there course recourse frequency We have the Law Society and the Advocates should be a regular review ofthe law and practice Disciplinary Tribunal with certain powers of referral to relating to the provision of legal services in the deemsters, no outside supervision such Island'. the Governor and as the ombudsman. There is no independent capacity for to investigate complaints apart from what the Law Society Mr Brown: I beg to second. may carry out. Of course, as in England and Wales, we can take certain issues to the high court provided you have President: Now, hon. members, we have the The the money to take it to the high court. We certainly do not resolution and the amendment before the Court and you have the openness enforced by statute, as in England and have a clearer indication from the mover of the could not Wales. Add to this fact that there is a small number of resolution that he is willing to accept the amendment. advocates, it may have grown, but it is still a small number (Several Members: Hear, hear.) So with that in mind, the of advocates, well known to each other, with common member hon. forAyre. business interests, and I would suggest to you that we do not have a very firm base for a system of self-regulation. Mr Quine: Thank you, Mr President. To me the Having recently read both the England and Wales and fundamental issue is whether or not an advocate should be the Isle of Man legislation relevant to regulation and subject to self-regulation. The issue is under discussion in discipline, I feel certain that the former jurisdiction and England and Wales at this time, and I think it is interesting the legislation that it uses is more friendly and client- to note in relation to any exercise that we envisage nripnfqfprl fhan nrrrc conducting that earlier this year the legal services The Solicitors Disciplinary Proceedings Rules of 7994 ombudsman wamed that unless the Law Society in England of the UK provide a starting point, I would suggest, for and Wales put its house in order it would lose the right to comparison, and staying with legislation, there are a self-regulation. He pointed out that last year there were number of questions which I believe need to be addressed two complaints for every five solicitors, and I am just as part of this inquiry. Where does statutory responsibility dealing with solicitors because I have the statistics for that. lie for ensuring that a punishment awarded by theADT is Apparently the UK Government in the Access to Justice fully discharged? The Attomey-General believes that the Bill have included a power for the Lord Chancellor to ADT have some responsibility for this matter. The ADT appoint a legal services complaints commissioner. This say that they have no such responsibility. Which office or appointment would end self-regulation, but this power is agency has responsibility for maintaining a record of presently being held in reserve and I believe the Lord convictions for disciplinary offences in respect of advocates? Now, ownership that task apart, what Chancellor is waiting to see what, if any, improvement is of legislative provision exists for keeping, making available brought about. for inspection and production before the ADT on Now, what of the position here in the Isle of Man? We conviction of such information? I would ask hon. members, know that for the l8-month period ending in June 1999 is it acceptable, set against the backdrop of self-regulation, there were 14 complaints to the Advocates Disciplinary that advocates should subscribe to a common policy of Tribunal. Only two of those were proved, five were indemnity insurance? It could give rise to a view that withdrawn, four was no case to answer, two dismissed and advocates have good reason to play down infringements. one is awaiting court action. Now, I cannot get figures for Should the ADT have power to attach conditions to awards letters of complaints or requests for intervention to the Law against defending advocates? Surely it cannot be right that Society and I am not aware of course at this point in time an advocate makes a submission by way of mitigation that what, if any, action has been taken under the Conciliation he is ceasing practice within a few months and then, having Rules of 1999. received a lenient sentence, continues in practice.

Manx Legal System - Investigation -Amended Motion Carried TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th DECEMBER 1999 T287

The Advocates Disciplinary Tribunal, while one step with very, very few complaints regarding advocates and removed from the Law Society, also gives me much cause one of our aims in recent times has been an attempt to for concern. For so long as we have such a tribunal I have produce greater transparency for the people of the Isle of no complaint with the High Bailiff being the chairman, Man in dealing with the legal profession, and in that respect and indèed having seen this gentleman function as the I want to thank the Isle of Man Law Society for the chairman first-hand, I believe he discharges his functions enormous help that they have given to us in the production very fairly and very firmly. But this does not alter the fact of a series of access to justice leaflets. We have produced thai as a structure the tribunal is fundamentally flawed: fhe Advocates Internal Complaints Procedure leaflet, we advocate or other lawyer as chairman, two advocates have produced the Isle of Man Law Society Conciliation nominated by the Law Society. Is this compatible with Scheme leaflet, we have produced a Can You Help? leaflet, article 6 of the Convention of Human Rights? Two lay we have produced notes for guidance and a complaints persons appointed by the Office of Fair Trading, the referral form, also leaflets on Are Your Advocate's Charges ãdvocate èomplained against represented by another Fair and Reasonable?, What To Do If You Are Dissatisfied advocate: a somewhat loaded situation. Is it acceptable, With A n A dv o c at e, W hat To D o If Yo u T hink Yo ur A dv o c at e again against a backdrop of self-regulation, for a senior Has Been Negligent?, all with the help of the Isle of Man office bearer of the Law Society to make representations Law Society. All these forms and leaflets will be readily to the ADT on behalf of his partner? Then last and available to everyone on the Isle of Man. We also keep a apparently least the complainant, the man in the street, record of the judgments of the Advocates Disciplinary invariably not represented. I would suggest to you that that Tribunal which people can view is not a system which can instill confidence as to a fair Now, I support the amendment by the Chief Minister outcome. for an independent review, but I would like to stress again It should not be overlooked in that context that legal the enormous co-operation that we have had from the Isle aid does not extend to proceedings before theADT. Given of Man Law Society in a joint endeavour to provide clear the present structure and constitution, there is surely a and informative access to justice for the people of the strong case for legal aid to be extended to such proceedings. Island. Thank you, Mr President. Does the absence of legal aid, amongst other things, go to of the complaints the heart of the breakdown disciplinary Mrs Cannell: Mr President, I shall be very brief because the singular lack of success which I referred to earlier and of the lateness of the hour. I have no problem at all with apparent those figures terms complainants from in of the main item on the agenda or with the amendment moved successfully pursuing complaints? in the name of the hon. Chief Minister, save for a little bit Turning to another matter which I have recently of assurance that I would like to hear this evening and that highlighted, why should advocates be exemptfrom section is that that bit of the amendment which has been left out 2 of the Investment Business Act 1991, effectively making which is related matters, and I appreciate what the hon. the Law Society the licensing authority? It matters not that Chief Minister said when moving his amendment in the firm of advocates derives no more then 20 per cent of picking up that particular issue, but could he reconfirm its gross income from investment business, and I would for me that that part of the original motion, related matters, like to know how that percentage is verified. But surely be dealt with following the receipt of the forthcoming the Law Societ¡r's capability to control some of its members will a six-month period? In other words, in this regard has already been found wanting, and that expected report within that those related matters are dealt with as a must raise an important question. will he ensure receipt of, hopefully, a Mr President, the amendment in the name of the Chief matter of urgency following the Minister is quite acceptable to me. I have no difficulty report here? with that. I would, however, seek confirmation from the Chief Minister that it does not preclude consideration of The President: May I make the point that the Chief the fundamental issue of self-regulation evaluated against Minister has no right of reply. the circumstances particular to this Island. Guarding against a predisposition towards self-regulation within the Mrs Cannell: No, Mr President. I thank you for that. I commission will be an important consideration. In that do appreciate that, but I think he can hear me from where regard I would just explain to the Chief Minister that if we he is positioned at the moment. He seems to be nodding in have other members of the commission who belong to the affirmative, so I assume that he has heard me. professions that benefit from self-regulation, then I would The other thing that I would like, when looking at the suggest there could be a bias towards self-regulation in regulatory and disciplinary procedures, is to look at, and determining the most appropriate procedures for this Island. obviously the person will be looking at, the existing There is also a need, as intimated earlier, for a reporting situation. In particular, we are acknowledging the fact that time to be written into their remit, and I again believe that improvements were made in relation to when an advocate that should be no more than six months. I see no need for is found or a case is proven the case has to be published it to be more than six months, given the way that the Chief and that the person should be named, that that was an Minister has narrowed their remit in his amendment. Thank improvement which was made back in 1996, as I you, Mr President. understand it. But nevertheless, looking at that particular provision, it does not specify where or how the publication Mrs Crowe: Mr President, at the Office of Fair Trading should be issued and so it is a little bit hit and miss in we deal with nearly 8,000 complaints a year. We have dealt relation to where a member of the public can actually see

Manx Legal System - Investigation -Amended Motion Carried T288 TYNWALD COURT. TUESDAY, I4th DECEMBER 1999 that information before engaging or considering engaging regulatory and disciplinary framework at the moment, the the services of an advocate, and I feel sure if members of complainant has to exhaust all local remedies, if still the public knew that one or two were perhaps consistent unsatisfied, before that person can then go to the Privy or small offenders they might be dissuaded from engaging Council, and from the Privy Council to the European Court the services ofthat particular advocate in view ofthe case on Human Rights. That is the normal route. But it seems history. to me that if there is a genuine case to be heard it is not I have to say that over the last two years I too have been always judged and assessed as it should be in order to contacted by numerous members of the public with all sorts satisfy the complainant, and sometimes of course the of case histories, some which have been successfully dealt complainant could be an advocate as well complaining with, some which have not, some complaints which have against another advocate. been dealt with successfully, the majority I have to say So I do welcome the investigation and I would hope - have not, and it seems to me at the end of the day - and I the Chief Minister said earlier about a very short time in can hear the wittering from the chairman of the Consumer which to report and the hon. member forAyre also alluded Affairs about her leaflets, but I am not talking about leaflets to and mentioned a time of six months - that we will be here - looking at some kind of report that is going to point us in the right direction in changing, because I believe the Mrs Crowe: You should refer the complaints to us. legislation has got to be changed, we have got to update it, we cefainly have got to update it in my view, but I would Mrs Cannell: - I am talking about real-life situations, I hope that we would have guidance on how we can do that, am talking about people who, after taking a complaint to how we can move forward to provide a fair and just and the Advocates Disciplinary Tribunal and the tribunal impartial justice system for the Isle of Man on which finding or proving the case on behalf of the complainant, everything else is based, because without it of course we apart from the justification and the gratification for the would fall foul. Thank you. complainant in knowing that he or she was poorly or neglectfully represented, there is nothing more to be said Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I would just like to say - or done. There is no procedure that they can go through then to seek real justice, there is no legal aid, there is no The President: You have come home, have you? ombudsman, there is nothing. So I think we have to address (Laughter) that also for the complainant, forthe members of the public in providing fairness. Mr Karran: I have come home. I have come back from Look at the situation in relation to an appeal when a the nobility of the other side. member of the public has gone through the proper procedures that we have laid down in the legislative Mr Delaney: You're rehearsing for the pantomine! framework and wants to lodge an appeal but finds that a local advocate is unwilling to take on that appeal, for all Mr Karran: I would just like to say I think it is sorts of alleged reasons, and this is the beauty and the important that somebody puts on record the fact that we importance of having somebody independent looking into appreciated the information that was provided as far as this whole framework here that we have locally that has this issue being here today by the Chief Minister. I think it been home-grown. That is how it was referred to earlier was very worthwhile. It.helped members to clarify the on, home-grown. Sometimes home-grown is not quite as position and I think it is very good and I think it is wrong open and fair as it could be and sometimes a little bit of that some members abuse that situation. importation can broaden the spectrum a little bit. We have heard the issue of six months, the timescale. I would be interested in some sort of cost scale as well Mrs Hannan: Oh, shame! because I think we will be talking a lot of mone¡ and I do believe that it is wrong of the colonials in this Court always Mrs Crowe: Absolutely. saying you have got to go to their mainland (Several Members: Hea¡ hear.) in order to get someone to pick Mrs Cannell: It is a shame but it is life. who it should be because I think that is wrong. The other thing I would like to say is I do hope with It would be much better on your mainland, Mr Cretney: this debate that the issue that needs to be revisited again as though, wouldn't it? well is the fact it is 1988 since I last tried to get an ombudsman on this Island and I do hope that the Council Mrs Cannell: What does concem me is that when a of Ministers will take that on board, and I think that the member of the public wants to lodge an appeal and cannot points of the hon. member forAyre were very worthy points find a local advocate to undertake the appeal, that person and I think they need to be supported, but I do think that can then apply for a barrister to come and represent him or some members should consider bringing private her at an appeal hearing but can only do so if a counter- maybe facilitate other things that this committee signatory is obtained by a local Manx advocate. Now, if a member's Bills to local Manx advocate refuses to counter-sign that document, is not. I do hope that they will take on those issues. I think then the barrister cannot act. So where does the complainant an ombudsman needs to be looked at again. It was 1988 go then? Because under normal circumstances, under our and I think this debate highlights that.

Manx Legal System - Investigation - Amended Motion Carried TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th DECEMBER I999 T289

The President: May I call on the hon. member for This issue, if we are to be, and we are, a successful Michael to reply? RePlY, sir. international business centre, requires that we have a legal system that is beyond reproach and this is the way it can Mr Cannan: Mr President, first of all I was delighted be done. I digress slightly, with your permission. We have three days ago when I learnt that the Council of Ministers had the Edwards report which has investigated the financial had agreed to support this motion, that they then realised services industry. It has done us no harm and I believe that that there were serious problems within the regulatory an investigation into the Manx legal system, under an framework of the Manx Law Society and practising independent chairman, will prove also to do us no harm lawyers in the Isl and on that basis, Mr President, I move the motion standing tam delighted Chief Minister in my name. I support the amendment but I am only but only disappoi de 'and related saddened that the Chief Minister could not incorporate matters' because ill rankle with those three words 'and related matters'. cefain people that unless the chairman takes a broader view ofwhat his remit is they may not be able to obtain The President: Hon. members, the resolution is set out satisfaction for their representations. at item 30 on the order paper and to that resolution we However, we have listened to the speech of the hon. have the amendment in the name of the hon. Chief Minister member for Ayre, Mr Quine. It was erudite and articulate which is also set out on the white paper in your possession. and I believe that the matters that he raised should be raised Will those in favour of the amendment standing part of with the chairman of the commission. I hope that the the resolution please say aye; against, no. The ayes have member will raise them with the commission when the it. The ayes have it. Now will those in favour of the commission sits and it is important that those issues and resolution as amended please say aye; against, no. The ayes those types of issues are shown to the chairman of the have it. The ayes have it. commission to seek an opinion on whethertheLaw Society in the Isle of Man should continue to enjoy self-regulation or whether it should have outside supervision. Very important issues. Public confidence is paramount. Student Loans Scheme - I asked for six months for the commission to report. Amended Motion Carried Other members who have spoken have conveyed that message as well, and I also hope that the Chief Minister The President: ltem 3l, the hon. member for Peel. and the Council of Ministers, in seeking to appoint this chairman, will exercise careful consideration to make sure Mrs Hannan: Thank you, Eaghtyrane. I beg to move: they have an experienced chairman and a fully independent chairman who is not only independent but seen to be That a select committee of three members be independent. There are too many issues involved in this appointed to consider and report on the feasibility of matter. introducing a Manx student loans scheme, supported by I listened to what Mrs Crowe had to say, but clearly she either the public or private sector, or both sectors. missed the point of this debate. This debate is not about leaflets nr âccess tn irrstice or*_ anvthins else. This detlate is T- +L:^ *^+:^- f ,,,^-+ +^ *^L^ .ir fLof -_-J'___'_C -_--' - lll -^.,:-^llruYlllÈ Llllù ¡llvL¡vl¡ I w4l¡l !v ¡¡¡dÀw ¡l Yu¡Lv^"it- ^l-¡¡w¡vo¡ a¡t4r about self-regulation of lawyers and I can tell you the Office this is not really an educational motion or in any way a of Fair Trading has now powers in the self-regulation of critical motion but a motion to seek to investigate ways of lawyers. They were just feeding the office with a little solving a problem for our young people, our children, to information about how good they were, how cheap they help them with a little extra funding in their time away were, which of course they are not - from home, studying at either college or university. Our funding of our educational system is quite Mrs Crowe: No, they were not. exceptional both here, through our school system, and for those of our children who are able to take up further promoting theirbusiness. But Mr Cannan: - and really educational opportunities in the United Kingdom or further and about the the issue today is about self-regulation afield. I do not even want to compare our young people about its findings and Advocates Disciplinary Tribunal, with those of other places, save to say that our students the democratic society with about public satisfaction in have all their fees paid and can apply for a maintenance that the lawyers have. the self-regulation grant which is means-tested. But it is safe to say also that These are very important. It is important for the good only the least well off get that grant and those on limited name of the Isle of Man that there is an investigation and income have difficulty with paying for any of the extras report. Good lawyers have nothing to fear. I have no doubt for our students. Island students also have greater expenses, that they will have confidence in the chairman who is travel longer distances to centres of learning, cannot get appointed and ifthere is anything that needs to be done - home at weekends and if they can it can be very expensive. and in my opinion there is but I am not qualified to say so wanting to visit find it costly and so are not able - then I hope that the report will be accepted in its totality Families support that they would wish. by Tynwald and action taken that is necessary, but I also to give the type of young people, used the hope that people will not be intimidated or hold back from However, our ever-resourceful, going to the commission and expressing their views and student loans system in the United Kingdom for about nine expressing what they believe should happen. years. When similar students applied some l5 months ago,

Student Loans Scheme -Amended Motion Canied T290 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th DECEMBER I999 they were told that it was not now available to Manx year there is presented to this hon. Court the Isle of Man students. In fact it was not available to our students, StudentAwards Scheme which by and large goes through Cbannel Island students or students from the Irish republic. without major debate or contention and this is presented The United Kingdom brought in new separate regulations for approval in February or March each year and the for England and Wales, for Scotland and for Northern scheme falls into two basic parts, first of all tuition fees. Ireland that loans are only now available to students from Now, tuition fees can vary from f3,990 to f.14,364 per these countries. annum, depending on the course being taken by the student. Student loans started at about f700 per annum. They They are all paid in full by the department for all students are now about f 1,000 per annum, repayable once a student irrespective of parental income and this currently amounts starts earning f 14,000 per annum. to f4.81 million per annum for the I128 Manx students in There has been no suggestion of a default in payments further and higher education. by our students once they earn f 14,000, which even for a The second part of the scheme is the maintenance grant graduate is a sizeable sum. The suggested obvious solution or living grant which is a grant to go towards the payment would be to go to the local High Street bank and get an ofa student's travel, living and book costs and it is payable overdraft, pay it back as and when, but High Street banks to students according to the income of their parents to a have letters flying about, demands, increasing overdraft m axi m um of f3,21 8 per annu m ou tside London and f 4,006 facilities and suggestions of getting further into debt et in London and is non-repayable. The living grant is for cetera. To suggest that is not to understand the student loans the academic year, 30 to 32 weeks, and not the calendar system. Loans are acceptable through the student loan year. I would stress that it only goes towards living costs, company. There are no threats, no demands, no overdrafts, does not and never has and probably never will cover no calling in. The plan is simple: you borow, pay back entirely the costs ofbeing a student. when your pay is this f 14,000, a totally different attitude It is assumed that parents have a responsibility for their and what I am suggesting is can't we look at doing sons and daughters in higher education and parents are something similar for our students, who have had this therefore expected to contribute to maintenance grant facility up until l5 months ago? support with parents earning more than around f30,000 So I hope the Court will support this motion before us net after allowances taking on such maintenance support today to appoint a select committee to give consideration in full. Less well-off families have maintenance support to helping our young people and their families to enjoy all from the government according to a sliding income scale, the further educational opportunities available to them. I the means test that has been correctly referred to by the so move. Thank you. hon. mover. In practice about half of students are supported in part Mr Karran: I beg to second and reserve my remarks. or full by the taxpayer and this costs annually around f 1.5 million. The other support given comprises income tax Mr Rodan: Mr President, I would wish to move an relief whereby Manx students also have the ability, which amendment to the motion of the hon. member for Peel, UK parents do not, of covenanting up to f4,500 per annum Mrs Hannan, in order to put the issue where it more to their son or daughter in higher education and thereby properly belongs: within the Department of Education: saving up to f900 income tax. We also have in the Isle of Man the linked bursary scheme whereby the l)epartment For the words after 'That' substitute 'the Department of Education gives an award of f,500 annually to each of Education continue to consider all options for the eligible student who takes a higher education course at futurefinancial support of students inhigher andfurther Liverpool University, Liverpool Hope, University College education and report no later than the March 2000 or Chester College or partly at Isle of Man College and sitting.'. partly at one of those institutions mentioned. There is also a range ofprivate bursaries and these are equally advertised I acknowledge the spirit in which the former Minister to the students in the student awards scheme. for Education has moved this particular motion and her Even with this support I am not going to pretend that motives are ones to see only the very best for our young our students are comfortably supported. Our level of people. I want, though, to spell out the way the Isle of assistance, generous as it is, as I said before, does no doubt Man and the Isle of Man tÐ(payer supports our students, I fall below what many universities and colleges tell students believe this is a great source of pride to the Isle of Man they will require each year for survival. Students still, I and to this hon. Court that Island students are supported in acknowledge, have a financial struggle and they always a more generous fashion than the United Kingdom or have. indeed other countries support their students. This has The England and'Wales system used to be broadly consistently been the case in the past, is the case now similar to the current Manx system of support, that is to whether there is a loans scheme or not and certainly Mrs say all tuition fees paid, with maintenance grant favouring Hannan acknowledges this. those from lower income families. In setting out the background I will be quoting some In 1990, as the hon. mover has stated, a student loans figures and in order to be as helpful as possible to hon. system was introduced and that was introduced for the members I am circulating my briefing notes so that the reason that the UK Govemment saw the writing on the figures may be more properly understood. But the wall with the cost of supporting students in higher background to the Island's support of course is that every education and the fact that more students were entering

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grant up to a maximum, the Isle of Man student, who may well have been on a 100 percent grant, could still have had that extra 50 per cent equivalent, that fI700 as a possible loan to supplement his already generous grant. route and it has not done so. From September 1998 the UK system was changed to The UK student loans system introduced at that time one of repayment through the UK PAYE tax system and regulations relating to ordinary residents were introduced which had the effect of excluding new Isle of Man or Channel [slands students. I would emphasise that existing students, students on existing loans, continued to be able to get those loans. If they had started they can continue, but new Isle of Man students could not, and this change to repayment through PAYE instead of the original mortgage style contract was made because of growing problems of obtained is f,3,635 annually, means-tested. default and recovering outstanding loans: a very, very Now, a UK student can therefore expect to have loan important Point. debts of between f 11,000 and f 14,000 to be repaid after So one may ask, 'What is the problem now for Isle of qualification through PAYE on his or her earnings from a Man students?' Well, clearly they no longer enjoy the threshold of f 10,000. advantage of this access to UK loans which are repayable The UK no longerhas a maintenance grant system. From over a long period and only repayable on commencing I st September the only living cash a UK student can obtain employment, undoubtedly a great advantage, and this has from his government is through a student loan. Other loans given rise to adverse comment in the press, although I have of course can be obtained from banks. In addition, since to say only a handful of written complaints have been 1998-99 UK students and parents have been required to received directly from students or through representations contribute towards the cost of tuition fees and this is subject from elected representatives, but it has been suggested that year to means-testing, in 1998-99 f 1,000 and this current Isle of Man students would be discouraged from higher that has gone up to fl,025. education. This is not a situation that we, in any shape or There is no question that introducing fees has deterred form, wish to see happen, so a number of possible solutions particularly mature considerable numbers of students, present themselves and there are a number of measures higher education. Additionally, students, from entering currently being pursued and under investigation by the there a and growing problem of arrears whereby is big department, first of all, top of the list, to persuade the UK universities and colleges are having a heck of a job in Government to again allow access by Isle of Man students getting in those tuition fee contributions. For the one third to the UK loan system. for whom the UK Govemment pays in totality there is no Now, the UK Government may well ask why they problem, but for the other two thirds, half of whom pay should. After all, overseas students have never been part and half of whom pay in total, it is a growing problem. allowed access to such loans and Isle of Man students, Now, the effect on Isle of Man students of the UK loans while not treated in terms of tuition fees as overseas, are scheme is inferesfino Frnm l99O fo Sentember-r'-"' 1998 all - as domestic either and we estimate that perhaps Isle of Man students were entitled to apply for UK student not treated per of Isle of graduates may well continue to loans and the students loans company are unable to tell 90 cent Man So this from their records exactly how many or which students work in the UK and thus be subject to PAYE there. did take out loans over this period. It is very hard for us has been raised with the Depanment of Education and proposed therefore to quantify how many students took advantage, through the Home Office and it is to further but we can fairly presume that some students will have pursue this option, in any event, whatever else happens. taken loans to supplement full maintenance grants from Then there is the possible solution of bank overdrafts the government here, other students who were in receipt and certainly in recent months and years High Street banks of partial grants would have no doubt applied for loans have offered overdrafts and loan facilities which are more instead of asking their parents to pay their parental competitive, either at low and zero rate, and these are contributions, and no doubt other students whose parents available both across and from the Isle of Man and Isle of did not even apply for grant funding - and let us remember Man students have been circulated with information as to only 50 per cent of students do get partial or full grants what is available, along with reminders about the bursaries from government but many parents do not even apply for that are available. it, perhaps to avoid income disclosure or in the knowledge, Then there is the other option of a Manx student loans more likely, that the combined income was going to be scheme for the 1100 potential Manx student borrowers, too high to qualify for any grant - those students may also and this of course is the subject of the motion on the paper, have applied for loans in order to be completely and such a scheme could be in two forms. It could either independent of their parents. Therefore I accept that the replace the present maintenance grant scheme in totality, overall effect has been one of extra money for Manx i.e. change to whatis now the UK system, or such a scheme students to top up grants or greater financial independence could replace the now disappeared student loan facility as from parents, albeit with a repayable loan. a top-up to the existing Isle of Man maintenance grant and So up to two years ago, up to the session 1997-98, while in theory either scheme could either be operated by a UK student could get a 50 per cent loan and 50 per cent government or the private sector or a combination.

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Now, I have to say that the department does have see that increasing grants across the board to an extent reservations over a government loans scheme on several will mitigate some of the financial loss from discontinued counts. First of all we have a reluctance to create a system access to the UK loan system and depending on the final which encourages students to go into debt as the student's maximum funding that is pitched, some students will be only form of financial support in their studies, and it would enabled to have as much cash in hand as could have been be massive debt. Secondly, the overall costs are unknown obtained from the UK student loan. What has happened is and would put government in the position of operating a that our maximum loan is now f3,200, our maximum grant, lending service akin to a bank. Now, it is not hard to work but if the system was not grant but loan the student could out what the costs in the initial year would be. Eleven have access to f3,600, albeit repayable, cash in hand, but hundred students each borrowing f3,000 would require repayable. So something has gone askew there which we f3.3 million plus interest, MrTreasury minister, in the first intend to address, and lastly, bringing more students into year, escalating ofcourse under compound interest - very the grant system, even at low levels of grant support, even significant sums indeed. Even a partial loans scheme of a at nominal levels, will better quantify the financial fairly modest f 1,000 borrowing facility, if taken up by all obligations expected of parents towards supporting their 1100 students, we are still talking multimillion pound student offspring. lending, long-term borrowing on the part of these students So the department has already been in discussion with - very, very significant implications for government: a view to enhancing the funding for next year and with administration costs and exactly the same difficulties of this in mind has commissioned an independent external loan recovery as the UK. We know from our own review of our system, and this will include comparisons experience on our discretionary loan funding the problem with other jurisdictions and tender advice and make of mortgage-style loans. recommendations to the department. An acknowledged Now, earlier in the year the department did open expert who is a retired university vice-chancellor, currently discussions with the private sector to see if they would be engaged on consultancy work, has been already engaged interested and full discussion was had with seven local on 8th November to carry out this review and is expected High Street banks and lenders over a loan scheme funded to report to the department early next year. by themselves. It would be fair to say none was Therefore notwithstanding that so far the department enthusiastic, the main objections being the cost of set-up has found little merit and has meantime ruled out a Manx and recovery, necessitating relatively high interest charges, student loans scheme as the preferred way forward, it the wish of the banks to check individual students' credit certainly would be possible to re-examine this option as risks, and the possible indemnity and guarantees required part of the external review that is currently under way. I of the department. So the downsides to a loan system are would therefore, Mr President, invite hon. members to very clear. endorse this option as outlinded in the amendment - I have to say that there are some unexpected benefits from a loan system. The hon. mover, I do not think, Several Members: Agreed! identified them, but I will identify them, because it is important that members know that in practice what has Mr Rodan: - to allow the matter to be considered as happened is that students have got a greater stake now in part ofan overall revision ofthe next year's student awards funding their own education, which has made them more scheme and to agree the proposed amendment. Thank you, aware of getting value for money and more cautious Mr President. therefore ofthe choice ofcourse, the choice ofuniversity and whether it be vocational or non-vocational. It has also Mr Downie: Mr President, I rise to second. made them more critical of teaching standards. Now, when the loan scheme started I do not think any Mr Cannan: All right, I was going to second. It was a of this was envisaged. It was a pure financial exercise by wide-ranging speech by the minister and I will refrain from government across, but this has happened and there has adding anything further. been therefore a greater acceptance ofthe merits ofa loans system. As I sa¡ it is only fair to point those out, as I have Several Members: Hunay! pointed out the considerable downsides and costs associated. The President: The hon. member for Rushen, Mrs The - and am coming to a conclusion, fourth option I Crowe. Mr President, (Messrs Houghton and Gilbey: Hear, hear.) - that the department has identified is a thorough review Mr Cannan: Oh, God. of the existing system of maintenance support and tuition fees payment aimed at increasing support to students of am always brief, Mr Cannan. Mr lower income parents and to extend the scheme to include Mrs Crowe: I President, do understand the motives of the mover of for the first time higher income parents, which is to say to I just both uplift the grant, raise the grant and to give the grant this motion, but a word of waming. Apart from the to more students than before, and the advantage of this complaints system at the Office of FairTrading we offer - option is that we acknowledge the reality that, even with (Interjections) the superiority of the Manx system of support, there are financial difficulties on the part of our students. We also The President: Hon. members.

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Mrs Crowe: - we offer a debt counselling service. would just think that I would like to say this evening, as we are reaching the end of this session, that it is entirely A Member: Death counselling? appropriate to me that we are discussing mechanisms to assist our young people to further their education and the Mrs Crowe: Debt counselling and it is with regret that means by which we can assist them in so doing, (Several all too often we have students overburdened with debt' Members: Hear, hear.) because if you were to look at Our counsellor promotes a street-wise, credit-wise anything over the past number of years, one of the programme before students go off to university, and I do wonderful things is that there are so many opportunities ñot ttrink the Court is fully aware of the amount of credit on this Isle of Man now that there were not in the past, and that is available to students. We have the banks who target isn't it good that we have the education service that is able our students for low-rate interest overdrafts. We have stores then to take them on to higher education and isn't it good who target store ca that there are opportunities here for them after that and so credit availability. it is entirely right that we are discussing here tonight, as purchase agreemen we go on to the new millennium, ways in which our young and resolve some people, who are the future, can be assisted by us and I students have got themselves into through the easy access think it is right that we are discussing it here tonight. of credit. I see the repayments of these loans as a huge millstone The President: The hon. member to reply. around the neck of some of the students. These loans have to be paid back at their lowest earning years when they Several Members: Hear, hear. fìrst stãrt work. At a time when one should be enjoying the fruits of their study and work and then offinto employment Mrs Hannan: I thank the members for their comments. they tallY ov I think a little bit of what I spoke about was lost because I I dment know that students get maintenance grants, I mean I am supp to let th not stupid,I know they get them. We all know, we all vote fully e issue on it every year, but it is the extra support. Not everybody given to our students. can get maintenance grants. Everyone can apply if they wish, but not everyone can get a maintenance grant. The Downie: Hear, hear. Messrs Cannell and member forDouglas East actually suggested the funds you are earning before you get a full grant. Ifyou are earning Mr Braidwood: Mr President, I do have sympathy with that you can have other costs as well, but you still only get the mover of the motion, but I think we have to compare that portion of grant. Students can be going to college with the student in the UK and the student in the Isle of Man, very little money, even if it is the full grant that they are and congratulate the minister for the Department of I getting, because the families can then no longer give the Education for his briefing paper, but there are just a couple added or increased support that maybe they feel that they of points I would like to raise in that parents are expected would like to give their child away from home, even to go to contribute to maintenance grant support with parents that child, to allow that child to enjoy the carnino more fhan f?O OOO net income- -Tust a counle of and visit tor eciucation that we offer them, points. There is a full maintenance grant when the net wondert'ul opportunity just quote father who has written to the income is less than fI3,580. The maintenance grant is and if I could a actually says, 'My younger daughter has asked reduced by f 1 for every f,5 of additional income up to minister, he a loan rather than an f 15,519. They lose f I between f,15,520 for every on more than one occasion for unable to offer a loan facility additional f4 up to f23,279, and from f23p80 they lose overdraft, but the banks seem any obvious means of repaying the borrowing', f 1 for every f,3 of additional income. without Also another point - the Manx student on a full and that is what is happening to our students. Yes, they are maintenance grant of f3,280 is for 30 weeks and for every getting an overdraft and that is fine, but an overdraft is at got additional week he receives f60.13. If he is in London it is a different level than what they would be doing if they f,86.42 for every additional week. I think when we a loan where they would not be pestered the whole of the compare, the overdraft facility can go up to f 1800 for a time to see when they are going to pay off their overdraft. Manx student with no interest charge, so if we look at it The minister has suggested that all the High Street banks overall and that fl800 is divided by three and f600, the offer overdraft and loan facilities to students. That student Manx student in actual fact is better off than their was not able to get that either at a low or a zero rate. counterpart having a student loan of f3,635, and as the All I was looking for, Eaghtyrane, was a select minister has already said, all tuition fees are paid. It is committee to look at this issue because I do not feel that it f,I,025 in the UK, which is means-tested. is necessarily educational. S/hat I am looking at is trying Just a couple of points I wanted to bring to the attention to offer students, whether they get grants or not, a small of this hon. Court and I will be supporting the amendment. loan facility so they do not have to enter into the sort of situation that the chair of the Office of Fair Trading has Several Members: Hear, hear. mentioned about all this easy borrowing that they have got and that they can get themselves into all these problems. Mr Cretney: Mr President, without getting into some There is nothing to be gained by us, as a funding of the detail that perhaps others have rightly got into, I authority, approaching the United Kingdom, the

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Department of Education, seeking them to allow our Millennium - Statement by the President students tojoin, because I have spoken to them and they will not fund, their legislation says, other than their funding The President: Now, hon. members as \rr'e are drawing authority. So if their funding authority is in England, that to the end of a thousand years of operation I felt it perhaps will be where they will be supported, be allowed to borrow appropriate that I should try and summarise those years in through a loan system. That is their information very what to me appeared to be a very, very, brief form, and I recently. am talking about 20 minutes. I can assure you that I have you The minister suggested that students have a great interest no intention of inflicting that upon this afternoon, but in funding education. I am not talking about this funding I wondered if perhaps, rather than waste it, you would ofeducation, I am talking about living, I am talking about incorporate i¡in Hansard as a light record of the thousand part being able to take up the opportunities to make the full years that have passed us by and the this Courtplayed in them, that is agreeable to you. opportunities of being away from home. if The minister in one breath said grants are not generous Members: Agreed. and then he suggested that the loans only topped up a generous maintenance grant system. It is either not Mrs Crowe: I think we should hear it, Mr President. generous or it is. I am concemed about that, and I do not want to get our students into an automatic loan system. The President: I would say to that, with the conclusion, just What I want is a small proportion of what they could hon. members, of the Court's business today, the last borrow and that is why I am suggesting that a select business to be transacted before the new millennium, it is committee could look at this, and I was not suggesting appropriate that we pause and reflect on the fact that this that government totally funds it. That is why I was is the only parliamentary institution in the world that has suggesting that it was not an educational problem. It is a operated throughout the past 1,000 years, and reflect also problem, I believe, for us all, as the member for Douglas on the words of the Manx writer, Bridson, who wrote of South suggested, to allow our children to enjoy the facilities the need to ensure that the achievements heretofore may of further education, something that we are not able to do not be utterly buried, although waxen, very old and almost here. tom from remembrance by the teeth of time. The only other thing that I could suggest is that The Tynwald story, hon. members, is reflected in the govemment actually, through the Department of Education, presentation on the stained glass memorials contained in actually pushes the connection with Liverpool, ups the the windows of this Court. They portray the influences bursary that is available for students at Liverpool to a which have governed its activities through the centuries, reasonable sum to actively encourage students to take up while each and every one acknowledged its Norse the Liverpool University education, which is also through foundation and perpetuated the Norse authority. years other colleges associated with Liverpool University, and In the course of a thousand inevitably there have constitution to actively encourage students to go to that group of been changes in the internal of the Court from those far-off days when the Scottish Highlands sent their colleges and universities where it is possible and where representatives to the Court to the present time. The records ihose courses are not on offer, io actually offer thai bit show clearly that, whatever form Tlnwald took, the Court extra to them. That is what I am suggesting. was consistent in respect of its desire to improve the lot of as the particular year I think, last debate during this in the Manx people. The century during which you and I have this Court - and I am not saying millennium because I think participated in the work of Tynwald has been unique in we have got it wrong and it is next year, but that is beside respect of the enormous strides taken to maintain that the point tonight - I would hope that the government can objective. This Court has carefully utilised its authority to listen to what I am suggesting, because nobody else has; make provision for the best health, social security, they are all going with the amendment. education services, a programme of expansion giving our I am concerned for our young people and the people virtually full employment, a government with opportunities. I want to see a maintenance grant continue, healthy reserves and no debt, an Island enjoying a way of but I also want to see the availability there of a little bit of life that is cherished, and today as we await the dawn of a added support to our young people and I would hope that new millennium we can do so with pride in 1000 years of this hon. Court would support a select committee. accomplishment by the Coun and feel privileged that we have been able to play a part in it. For the future, hon. members, I would commend the The President: Hon. members, the resolution is set out words of the poet Coleridge: at item 31 on the order paper and to that resolution we have the amendment in the name of the hon. member Mr 'If men could learn from history, what lessons it might which is circulated on the white paper and is in Rodan, teach us ! But passion and party blind our eyes, and your possession. Will those in favour of the amendment the light which experience gives is a lantern on the standing part of the resolution please say aye; against no. stern, which shines only on the waves behind us!' The ayes have it. The ayes have it. Now those in favour of the resolution as amended please Hon. members, as we go forward, our hands in the hand say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. of God, into the future, I extend to you all the age-old

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wish of happiness at Christmas and health, peace and created Rushen Abbey in the town of 'Ballasally' and of prosperity in the new millennium. Thank you all. course The Nunnery, and their bishops remained as heretofore members of the Lords Council. The Speaker: Mr President, may I on behalf of the However, the supremacy of the kingdom was challenged House of Keys, sir, say that we have certainly listened to in 1270 by Alexander of Scotland who landed at your words this afternoon with pleasure and whilst from Runnysuie, defeated the Manx in battle, slaying some 537 time to time time may seem to stand still within this very troops, and promptly detached the Scottish islands from Court, you are correct to point out that the achievements the kingdom. Thanes were appointed as governors but not of Tynwald Court are without doubt immense. all were loyal to their kings throughout the years of Scottish Mr President, I would simply like to wish yourself and control, an example being in 1313 when King Robert the Lady Kenuish all the very best for Christmas, all the joy Bruce landed at Ramsey, marched on and captured Castle that you would wish, sir, for yourself and your family and Rushen from the govemor who had challenged him. equally so to all the Members of the Legislative Council. The Diocese of the Isle of Man, previously subject to Trondheim, had by this time reverted to the control of the Members: Hear, hear. Archbishop of York and it was during this period that the diocese now known as Sodor and Man had its first and only Manx bishop, John Donkan. The President: Hon. members, the Council will now The first-ever licence to be issued by this Court was withdraw and leave the House of Keys to transact such one granted during this period to the Earl of Buchan to business as Mr Speaker may place before them. mine for lead on the Calf of Man. Subsequent years saw conquest by the House of Salisbury, mortgage to Bishop The Councilwithdrew. The text of the President's Bec, sale to the Earl of Wiltshire who was convicted for stqtement is as follows: treason, forfeiting his rights to Henry IV. He in turn granted them to the House of Stanley. With the conclusion of the Court's business this day, Tynwald and the diocese continued to function in the the last to be transacted before the new millennium, it is interests of the Manx people through this ever-changing appropriate that we pause and reflect on the fact that this pattern of control. The House of Stanley, which gave the parliamentary has is the only institution in the world that Island no fewer than l0 rulers prior to and after the operated throughout past years, reflect also the 1,000 and Commonwealth, were in the main absentee lords, not even on the words of the Manx writer, Bridson, who wrote of bothering to visit this domain. the need to ensure that the achievements heretofore may The 2nd Stanley visited in 1417 and 1422, held court at not be utterly buried, although waxen very old and almost St John's, endorsing the old form of government and torn from remembrance by the teeth of time. customary law. During his second visit he also held This ancient kingdom, whose kings have through history Tynwalds at Cronk Urleigh, Michael and Castle Rushen been feudatory to the kings of Norway, Scotland and to have customary law committed to writing. England in turn, was enriched by the creation of the The 5th Earl of Derby visited the Island in 1507 and the legislative assembly known as Tynwald in979 in advance significance ofthat visit lay in the fact that he dropped the of the millennium oitime we shali shortiy recognise. The title of king and adopted that of Lord of Man and the Isles. kingdom ofthat day - and indeed throughout the period of It was not until the 7th Earl of Derby that the family Norse influence which extended to 127O-consisted of Man took more than a transient interest: as Lord Strange he and the Isles, the Isles being ¡he 12 most southern of the presided over Tynwald in 1637, 1645 and 1647. At all of Scottish isles. The Tynwald of that period consisted of the these sitting laws were promulgated. Kings Council: eightMembers of theHouse of Keys drawn The English Commonwealth came into being in 1648. from the isles and 16 from the Isle of Man. The earl, a Royalist, took Manx volunteers to fight The common law was known as breast law and was Cromwell's forces and that action was to result in his being proclaimed to the public at St John's. It was already beheaded for treason. It was at this time that\William established in law that the people held their land on terms Christian, the receiver general, took the stand which also that 'none should venture to claim their holdings as resulted in his execution. hereditary propefy' but simply as tenant at the will of the The Long Parliament conveyed the Island to Fairfax king. This was known as the 'tenure of the straw'. It was a who held it until the Restoration of Charles tr. The Malew period of turbulence, with petty kings vying for influence. parish registerrecorded his proclamation, read at respective So perhaps it is not surprising to learn that no fewer than crosses of Castletown, Peel, Douglas and Ramsey. three knights - Neail, Duffayll and Marker - were The Derbys were restored to power and included in their treacherously killed while attending Tynwald ceremonies letters patent was the grant of the royal mines of gold and in Viking times. silver in the Isle of Man. However, during the reign of the Nevertheless the rulers of that period were constructive. 1Oth Earl James from 1702 the English Government started They gave the Island a constitution. They created a to complain of the immunity granted to Manx traders which defensive structure of which the creation of Rushen and affected their revenues. Tynwald sought to contain the Peel Castles were the prominent feature along with 'watch situation by passing an Act in 17ll to redress those and ward'. grievances, but Parliament was still dissatisfied and in 1725 As builders of centres of religion and learning they produced an Act to make it lawful for the lord to sell his

Millennium - Statement by the President T296 TYNV/ALD COUR TUESDAY, I4th DECEMBER 1999

interests to the Crown. James was to prove the last of the aspirations and the battle continued until 1940, Tynwald House of Stanley to reign here, as on his death he was seeking an executive responsible to the Court and control succeeded by the Duke of Atholl who, in 1736, attended a of finance. Tynwald at St John's in royal rnay at which he signed an A measure of progress came with the passing of the Act jntended to secure the liberty of the subject and the Isle of Man Act by Westminster in 1958: over 50 years of better government of the isle. He was succeeded by Duke struggle to get a limited constitutional advance. John and Baroness Strange, his wife. The Lords of the It was not enough and Tynwald's reaction resulted in Treasury set out to purchase the Island and pressured the the appointment of the MacDermott Commission. The reluctant Atholls by enforcing a blockade of Manx outcome was substantial change in Council membership, shipping. the passing of the Finance Act 1961, the Police Act 1962, The MischiefAct of Parliament was passed, the first to Civil Service Act 7962, all of which diminished the affect the rights and liberty of the Manx people and the authority of the govemor and placed it with Tynwald. independence of Tynwald, though not without the Duke's Tynwald remained dissatisfied, believing that officials protest. The outcome was inevitable and in 1765 the rights and ministers at the Home Office were more of an obstacle of the Atholls were sold for f70,000, the title being than a hope to their aspirations. The question here was transferred to George I. A figure of f70,000 appears to under what circumstances is the UK justified in imposing have been derived from an evaluation of the Island's measures on the people of the Isle of Man against their exports which annually ran to 15,000 tons of potatoes, wishes as expressed by Tynwald? 20,000 quarters of wheat, 40,000 barrels of cured herring, In 1973 a Select Committee on Constitutional Issues along with cattle, horses, pigs and poultry and, in addition, was appointed by the Court but no progress stemmed from 2,600 tons oflead,350 tons ofcopper, 3,181 tons of zinc, its deliberations. Today, we look to our present committee 1,650 tons of iron and 57,000 ounces of silver. These to advance the Island's interest in that sphere. figures were arrived at as a result Tynwald passingActs of The century during whi ipated in 1637 and 1645 requiring all Manx exports to be licensed. in the work of Tynwald ha of the What might be termed the beginning of the modern form enormous strides taken to eople. of Tynwald came in 1866 with the popular election of the This Court has carefully mãke House of Keys, set out in section 120 of theAct. Itis made provision for the best health, social security and education clear that the Keys has the right, whenever any business is services, a programme of expansion, giving our peoplé before Tynwald Court, to adjourn from the Court to discuss virtually full employment, a government with healthy the business separately in their own House and then return reserves and no debt and an Island enjoying a way oflife to Tynwald Court; the right may be exercised at any stage that is cherished. As we await the dawn new of the proceedings. The right to sit separately and transact of a millennium we can do so with pride 1,000 years business is in fact exercised annually at St John's, the in of accomplishment by the Court and feel privileged Governor and the Council occupying the chancel and the that we have been able to play a part in it. For the future I commend transept appropriated to the Keys as their House for the day. the words of the Poet Coleridge. From that time there was an ever-increasing amount of l^.', Ei^L+^^- ¿L^ i-.-^l--^.:--- r r 'If men could leam from history, what ¡4w. Lrër¡Luerr-sr^LJ-st^^i-+., ^:-. ùdw^^--, Lilç ulllUuuuùlult ut-¡1r Lllg Luual lcssons it núght Government Act; 7872, the Education Act, the basis of teach us! But passion and party blind our eyes, and our modern system; the Common Lodging House Act came the light which experierrce gives is a lantern on the stern, into being; and the Harbour Board were entrusted with the which shines only on the waves behind us!' responsibility to look after harbours. Tyn harbour dues provoked an As we go forward, our hand in the hand of God, into outcry who in 1872 appointed a the future, I extend to you all the age-old wish of happiness deputa fishermen to wait on the at Christmas and health, peace and prosperity in the new govemor at St John's who promised improvements which millennium. never materialised. In some of the Island's harbours no fewer than 1,000 flishermen demonstrated at Tynwald in 1880 in protest against govemment's failure to implement its promises. House of Keys By the turn of the century that work and considerable works of improvement in the Island, including railway The Speaker: Hon. members,I would wish you all and structures, had been carrìed out. your families equally a very happy Christmas and a good The beginning of this century saw the Court embark on time over the New Year which breaks in a new thousand a constitutional struggle which is still ongoing. It began years. with the appointment of Lord Raglan as governor i n 1902. So with that, hon. members, can I say that the House Raglan's interpretation of office, like that of New in more will sit again in Tlnwald Court on January lSth at 10.30 recent times, was firmly in the colonial tradition and his in the year 2000. attitude towards reform produced a constitutional crisis, It resulted in Lord MacDonnell chairing a committee to report The House adjourned at 9.20 p.m. on matters concerning the constitution of the Isle of Man. The resulting recommendations did not meet Island

House of Keys