REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS OF HOUSE OF KEYS

Douglas, Tuesday, June 6, 1978 at 11 a.m.

Present: The Speaker (the Hon. H. C. so on. Persons with farming experience Kerruish, O.B.E.), Messrs. R. J. G. Anderson, acknowledge that where horned animals are W. K. Quirk, J. J. Radcliffe, P. Radcliffe, concerned, particularly in the dairy herds, J. N. Radcliffe, Dr. E. J. Mann, Messrs. one vicious animal can cause havoc and A. A. Callin, R. IL. Watterson, J. R. Creer, severe injury to hides, eyes and, above all, E. G. Lowey, M. R. Walker, N. Q. Cringle, udders, and in a few minutes render useless Mrs. E. C. Quayle, Messrs. W. A. Moore, possibly an extremely valuable animal. One E. M. Ward, B.E.M., P. A. Craine, D. F. K. horned beast in a herd of de-horned Delaney, E. C. Irving, Mrs. B. Q. Hanson, animals will very quickly realise that it has Messrs. T. E. Kermeen, I.S.O., R. Mac- an advantage over its fellows and very Donald, J. J. Christian, G. C. Swales, with quickly becomes a bully. Bulls can, of Mr. R. B. M. Quayle, Secretary of the course, be much more dangerous and it is House. generally acknowledged here that many farmers lives have been lost as a result of being trapped by dangerous bulls. This BILLS FOR FIRST READING. danger also applies to ramblers and other The Speaker: Bills for first reading. persons crossing land where cattle are grazing and are faced by a bull which The Secretary: Usury Acts (Repeal) Bill— resents their presence. De-horning in the Mr. P. Radcliffe; Rabies (Amendment) Bill Isle of Man has taken place for very many — Mr. Craine. years as a condition of payment of calf subsidy, and with this scheme now coming HORNED ANIMALS BILL — THIRD to an end this Bill is essential for the con- READING APPROVED. tinuity of the de-horning of cattle practice. West European countries and most other The Speaker: For third reading we have agriculturally developed countries have also the Horned Animals Bill. I call upon the adopted the de-horning practice, and to hon. member for Rushen, Mr. Walker. suggest that this Island should not operate Mr. Walker: Mr. Speaker, yourself and similar de-horning measures would be a O hon. members will recall the emotion ex- retrograde step in terms of animal welfare, presssed by many members when debating human safety and farm economics. I feel it this Bill at its second reading stage. There is important to remember that the Cruelty is clearly a need for legislation in this field to Animals (Anaesthetics) Act of 1965 and 1 feel that good judgment was on that provides that farmers may dis-bud their occasion clouded by undue emotion. I say animals up to 14 days of age by chemical undue because on this occasion I really cauterisation without a local anaesthetic, think that that was the case. I am personally although in practice many use a mild anaes- opposed to any sort of cruelty and would thetic solution which can be obtained from not support, let alone handle, any legislation agricultural merchants. It is important to which could be interpreted as such. The appreciate that after that age it is unlawful compulsory de-horning of cattle has been, for an animal to be de-horned other than without doubt, one of the most beneficial by a veterinary surgeon using an anaesthetic. measures to the world farming industry, not If an attempt is made to de-horn animals only for the welfare and safety of the between three and six months, unless a very animals themselves, but also for the farmers, deep cut is made and cautery applied, the farmworkers, hauliers, slaughtermen, and horn will very often grow again. However,

• Bills for First Reading. — Horned Animals Bill—Third Reading Approved. K334 HOUSE OF KEYS, JUNE 6, 1978 if they are de-horned after six months of veterinary surgeon said, "No, honestly, age a complete and satisfactory operation will not do it because it would not be the • can be carried out with no additional treat- thing with the number of flies and the heat ment. Hence the veterinary reason for the and the hot weather. I will leave it until the exemption of animals of less than 12 months autumn." This indicates the view of the in clause 3 of the Bill which, you will recall, practice as far as this is concerned. I do was subsequently amended. Secondly, it is think that this Bill should be amended. common knowledge that the bulk of calves in the Manx beef and suckler herds are born Mr. J. N. Radcliffe: Mr. Speaker, I cannot out of doors in the period from March to let this Bill pass through the House on its May, and then run at foot with their third reading without once again making mothers. The practical effect of the amend- reference to the fact that the agricultural ment reducing the minimum age from 12 to community in the main is only very luke- six months is that every baby calf will have warm about the contents of this Bill. I will to be caught and dis-budded by chemical not go into great detail about the whys and cauterisation, which is completely imprac- wherefores because most members will be tical, if not impossible. It should be borne quite well aware that it is because of the in mind also that chemical cauterisation is cessation of the calf-rearing subsidy scheme seldom 100 per cent. effective. It is contrary and its de-horning requirements that this to all known veterinary and farming practice Bill has come about. The hon. mover said to de-horn in the summer months because in his opening remarks that one horned • of the heat, flies and grub infections. Any animal in a herd is a bad thing, that he or veterinary surgeon carrying out de-horning she is the master of the herd. I would refute procedure during the summer months, ex- that and say that it is not really a valid cept in special circumstances such as broken argument. I have a small herd and there is horns, would be guilty of gross professional in it one horned animal, and that animal incompetence and could face the risk of is definitely not the master of the herd; the civil action for compensation in the event de-horned animals are the ones who do the of subsequent infection or death. The Board pushing around. So his argument about one of Agriculture had all these eventualities and beast with horns on being in control is not, reasons in mind when proposing the initial to my mind, a really good or valid argu- 12-month minimum age, so as to allow the ment. I think that this Bill is interfering animals to be de-horned after September with an owner's privilege to do what he when they are very often weaned and wants and wishes with his own stock, that wormed at the same time. In relation to is, to have stock with or without horns on exports, it is unlawful to mix de-horned and them. Up until now that privilege has not horned cattle on safety and welfare grounds, been interfered with because if a farmer and if the practice of de-horning is not con- wished to leave horns on his animals there tinued it will not be possible to maintain was nothing to prevent him. It meant, of the present valuable export of Manx store course, that he could not claim the relevant and breeding livestock. So it is with that end calf subsidy, but that was entirely his own • in mind, I believe, that it is imperative we decision. He lost the subsidy, something pass the third reading of this Bill today, and between £8 and £18 --that was according that the 12-month age limit be reinstated in to the years, it has been up and down -- another place. I beg to move the third and he could regard that perhaps as a fine, reading. if you like, but it was one of his own making. Now he is to have no option at all Mrs. Quayle: I beg to second and reserve about it; it is de-horn your cattle or be fined my remarks. a figure up to £100. It rather amused me to Mr. Anderson: I rise to support this, Mr. hear the hon. mover say at second reading Speaker. I do think it is important that stage that the Board of Agriculture was not somewhere along the line it is amended be- being dictatorial in this Bill. Anyone could cause people who are dealing with this keep cattle, said the hon. mover, as long as problem —I know of an occasion only this they were de-horned. What could be more past week where I had two animals requiring dictatorial than that? If there is as much very minor operations which would be of a opposition to horned animals within the similar nature to de-horning and the industry as the hon. mover would have us

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believe, the probability is that when it came Isle of Man, well then of course we are • to selling animals, the seller of an animal going to have to comply, and this is another with horns on — and I think this is where direction which should come from the the crunch would be—would not receive the Board of Agriculture. price that a de-horned animal would bring. Mrs. Quayle: Mr. Speaker, 1 am amazed The individual, I think, would then conform, at the hon. member for Ayre. It seems to if he had to conform, without any need for me that it is not only cruel to the animals, regulations of this sort because it would hit this space between six months and 12 his pocket, and there is nothing that makes months, it is cruel to leave the horns on a person toe the line quicker than the price and insist on it being done by six months. that goes into his pocket. I would say then Quite honestly, if that comes in I shall be that there is no need for this Horned voting for the third reading now but I shall Animals Bill we have here today. The not be signing the Bill in Tynwald because, market will do all the de-horning that is I understand, it is cruel to animals to expect necessary if the call is indeed there. 1 would it to be done during the summer months if say in conclusion that we make great play these cattle are born in the spring. I find it of the fact that one of the basic rights of odd that the hon. member should say that the democratic society in which we all live the Board of Agriculture is being so dic- and to which we all belong is the right of tatorial. Does he remember that the taxpayer the individual to be an individual, to con- puts a tremendous amount of money into 0 form or not to conform if he so wishes. the farming industry and I think they have would say that this Bill is depriving the a certain right to expect that their veterinary whole of the agricultural industry of that surgeons and the people working in the right, and I say that if a person wishes to abattoir have a certain amount of protection leave horns on his animals he should be able from dangerous animals, and when they to do so, if that is his true desire, without have horns they can be dangerous. If you being outside the law in doing so. are expecting veterinary officers to run Mr. Cringle: Mr. Speaker, I think the hon. around the fields whenever they are called in member for Ayre must be on his own in order to catch them before they are six the agricultural industry because he said that months, they simply will not do it. I think there is not very much call for the de- it is a great disservice to your farmers to horning of cattle in the Isle of Man. I would stand out against this Bill; you put us on suggest that the reverse is similarly true, the horns of a dilemma, if I may say so. and that 9999 per cent. of the agricultural (Laughter.) industry would be prepared to, and, in fact, Mr. Lowey: Very briefly, Mr. Speaker, I will de-horn their animals. (Interruption.) rise to support the third reading, but 1 would However, we will always have the odd men just like to point out two small points. One, out. He admits that the Board of Agri- the hon. mover in this third reading speech culture is being somewhat dictatorial in said that the Bill had been amended in one 0 bringing forward legislation which imposes clause. It has in effect been amended twice, a penalty on those who will not comply. as the £400 fine was reduced to £100. I do Well, in this case I would think this is some- hope that another place will not reinstate thing which the agricultural industry as a the £400. The other point in relation to my whole will wholeheartedly support and hon. friend from Ayre, Mr. Radcliffe. In accept. I would suggest that it is possible clause 3, of course, there are certain exemp- that in fact the agricultural industry looks tions thereof by order of the Board, so for at times for even more direction from the breeding purposes and other things, with Board of Agriculture as to exactly what it is the approval of the Board, there can still be going to do with the cattle industry on the a choice for the owner to have horned Isle of Man. As the hon. mover at the third animals on his farm if he so wishes. reading, and I think also at the second reading stage has commented, it is of course Mr. Walker: Mr. Speaker, I would just illegal in other countries to move cattle thank the members that spoke in support of which are horned along with cattle which the Bill. Of course, Mr. Anderson is quite are de-horned. If we are going to have right in saying that the veterinary surgeons agricultural trade with livestock from the in private practice are concerned about

• Horned Animals Bill—Third Reading Approved. K336 HOUSE OF KEYS, JUNE 6, 1978

carrying out operations, however minor, Article 3 of Regulation 706/73) Bill 1978. I in the summer months, and indeed, our call upon the hon. member, Mr. Irving, to • veterinary surgeons in private practice in the take the third reading. Island have made their wishes known in no mean manner to me. Mr. Norman Radcliffe Mr. Irving: Mr. Speaker, we have debated again opposed this Bill. I will also take issue this Bill at great length during the second with him. I have found that the industry is reading and during the clauses stage. I 100 per cent. or 99.99 per cent. in favour merely want to say at this stage that it does of the Bill, with Mr. Radcliffe being the permit - this is all it does — departments of other 0.01 per cent. I think, probably, he the Manx Government concerned with trade omitted to say, when he was telling us this in agricultural products to make the neces- tale about his herd with one animal with sary administrative arrangements. It is a horns on and the rest without horns, that Bill to permit administrative arrangements the one with horns is probably only a calf. to be made. It will enable us to carry out Of course, a few animals with horns can obligations under Protocol 3 of the Act of affect the industry as a whole; hauliers' costs Accession, and in more detail under Regu- will increase, abattoir costs will increase, lation 706/73, and 1 beg to move the third and goodness knows, we all know that they reading of the European Communities Bill. are costly enough. Mr. Cringle supported Mr. Moore: I beg to second. and I thank him for his remarks. He is quite right when he says that our neighbouring Dr. Mann: Mr. Speaker, I did not speak on the second reading of this Bill. I have • countries have legislation which makes it illegal to transport both horned and de- done an extensive amount of reading since horned animals in the same container. Mrs. the second reading of this Bill, and I know Quayle, 1 thank you for your support. Mr. the hon. Chairman of the Executive Council Lowey, I can appreciate the remarks about was suffering from toothache at the time he the amendment to the penalty clause, and addressed us, but I do not agree with him! of course it is the other amendment which (Laughter.) I do not think this Bill is I hope to see rectified. I beg to move. necessary and I do not think the adminis- trative machinery is ncessary. 1 think a lot The Speaker: The resolution, hon. mem- of the original special relationship is being bers, is that the Horned Animals Bill be lost as the years go by. It depends how you now read a third time. Those in favour look at the special relationship as to please say aye; against, no. whether it is that you were swept all in A division was called for and voting except for certain things, or whether we resulted as follows:— have just accepted certain things and re- For: Messrs. Anderson, Quirk, J. J. Rad- jected the rest. Some of the original con- cliffe, P. Radcliffe, Catlin, Watterson, cept of the special relationship has certainly Creer, Lowey, Walker, Cringle, Mrs. disappeared. We certainly were not expected Quayle, Messrs. Moore, Craine, Delaney, or anticipated to adopt Community direc- Mrs. Hanson, Messrs. Kermeen, Chris- tives on animal and plant health except by • tian and Swales — 18. negotiation. We were not, at the time of going in, expecting to adopt value added tax Against: Mr. J. N. Radcliffe, Dr. Mann, either, but the pressure of the Common Messrs. Ward, Irving, MacDonald and Purse Arrangement has certainly made this a the Speaker -- 6. fact. In fact we now appear to be basically The Speaker: Eighteen votes in favour swept in except for certain things, and if this and six votes against. The resolution carries is the true situation, and this Bill makes it and the Bill is read a third time. more likely that this is the true situation, that we are in fact being swept in except for certain things, then I think there is a strong EUROPEAN COMMUNITIES case for stopping at this point and re- (IMPLEMENTATION OF ARTICLE 3 assessing where we go from here. This is OF REGULATION 706/73) BILL— going to make things very much easier to be THIRD READING APPROVED. swept in more and more without any critical The Speaker: Turning next to the Euro- analysis of what is happening. But if we are pean Communities (Implementation of swept in for certain things, then we are

European Communities (Implementation of Article 3 of Regulation 706/73) Bill—Third Reading Approved. • HOUSE OF KEYS, JUNE 6, 1978 K337

getting precious little advantage for being forward-thinking people in this respect. I • swept in because we are not getting any of might say in 1953 we took the bull by the the Community funds helping any of the horns . . . (Laughter.) We made an altera- projects on the Island. The main reason for tion in the regulations which existed at that not being swept in, namely that we should time in the United Kingdom. We were not ever become a sovereign independent criticised over this, but in later years this state, is true if we are swept in, but it is also alteration was adopted in the British Isles. true at this moment with a special relation- Again, shortly afterwards, we introduced ship, and in fact the only difference at this legislation requiring that every grower of the moment is in respect of Manx nationals, in potatoes should grow these potatoes from employment, and our ability to adjust our certified stock only. This was a regulation own income tax. Under these circumstances we got in very serious trouble about, and I think that this Bill is unnecessary and it yet only recently the European Economic should be rejected at this moment. I think Community have themselves adopted this a very strong re-assessment of our position very principle. This is the one thing that should be made because if we are being want to say about this. That we must in our swept in, then we are receiving no advan- own right show that we can do these tages for being swept in, and in fact the only things. We can look forward and see what advantage I can see is that we ought to have is going to happen and give ideas to the the faith to be swept out. I think at this European Economic Community, or to the • moment that the European Communities United Kingdom who act on our behalf. 1 Implementation Bill should be swept out. do not think we should wait until the orders come forward, and this is where 1 fear com- Mr. Quirk: Mr. Speaker, 1, too, would placency will arise. We tend to wait until just like to say a few words somewhat along we see what this order is about and then the lines that Dr. Mann has started on, but we do something about it instead of going yet in a different way. I think there are one at it at the start and making up our own or two points which arise in this Bill, and minds about it. 1 was going to say, too, that the first is that we have got to be doubly as far as the Board of Agriculture is con- careful about these orders as they come cerned I think they are in the situation at forward. In the past I think we have been a the moment when they can do something little complacent about this. It has been about it. In the standardisation of health suggested that some of these orders have been and quality throughout the United Kingdom rubber stamped and 1 think we have got to there is such a difference at the moment that accept the responsibility for this ourselves. it is most unrealistic. In the standards of We have not been looking at these Bills health we have different degrees of designa- probably as keenly as we should have done. tion according to the health of the growing I think in future we do not want to be crops, and in Scotland, Northern Ireland, complacent about these others either. At the England, Wales, Southern Ireland, Isle of second reading there were two questions Man, differences do exist, and 1 would like • brought forward by the hon. members, Mr. to see the Board of Agriculture going ahead Cringle and Mr. Radcliffe, and these raised and getting these things put right and getting a little bit of a query in my mind—and, on standards of our own set out so that we can looking back through my ancient filing put this forward through the United King- system 1 came across a directive from the dom and say, now, look here, this should European Commission for the Standardisa- be somewhere near it, let us have a go at tion of Foodstuffs. This was in 1961; it is this. I think, too, we have got to be careful really what we are talking about today. This here because in Holland — and we are is a Commission which was set up, 1 believe, in 1958. It had its commencement, I think talking about the European Economic Com- it was as early as 1949, and this really asked munity now— they may impose regulations the Isle of Man to give their comments on on us which are most unacceptable here. In what this was about about, which was seed this respect, too, the requirements for the potatoes and the like, foodstuffs that were certification or the designation of seed connected with farming produce. This was potatoes in Holland really depend on the interesting at the time because we, in the time these crops are burnt off, and if you Isle of Man, had always been, I think, fairly do not burn within a certain time your

European Communities (Implementation of Article 3 of Regulation 706/73) Bill—Third Reading Approved. K338 HOUSE OF KEYS, JUNE 6, 1978 designation, your certification, is down- Isle of Man and the Channel Islands, the graded according to the days or the time Isle of Man Government will be able to that it is left. This is something we may assist Manx agriculture to carry out the think about in the Isle of Man, but I think aims of the Community which are —Article at the moment it would not be a suitable 39 of the Treaty of Rome -- to increase aspect to bring in. Again, according to the agricultural productivity; to ensure a fair standards of quality too, in Holland they standard of living for the agricultural com- have there huge co-operatives and I have munity; to stabilise markets; to provide often thought, just what is the difference certainty of supply; and to ensure supplies to between a co-operative in Holland and consumers at reasonable prices." With those marketing association in the Isle of Man? principles in mind I hope there will no If we called the marketing association a co- longer be any delay in bringing forward to operative would we be then in the same Tynwald the recommendations of the Meat position as the co-operatives are in Holland Prices Commission. "The steps available to that we can abide by European Economic the Isle of Man Government to attain these Community regulations? 1 do not know. But objectives will be within the pattern laid in Holland they do have these huge co- down for Community countries." This Bill operatives and in this respect they have in fact deals with the application, modified their own officers who develop ideas, they or adapted, of subordinate legislation passed breed different varieties, et cetera. They are by the United Kingdom Government. I think really tremendous organisations. Their out- that needs to be stressed. But circumstances put is so perfect it is almost unbelievable under those principles are very different in whereas here in the Isle of Man we have the Isle of Man than they are in England, to depend on individual farmers to present and I hope we establish not only the ques- their own particular individual sample. and tion of procedure by order subject to the this is something which really is not bene- approval of Tynwald, but also we will now ficial to the Isle of Man, but how you get have as our guide in this matter the Com- over that I would not know. 1 would like to mon Market Committee, and that that say, too, to the Chairman of the Consumer Committee should have under its control Council that as far as I know there is no the European Economic Community officer. standard of quality for ware potatoes. I may The senior officer was appointed, as I be wrong in this, but it seems to me that said, five years ago to be the watch-dog on there is a certain laxity here where we the mass of Community regulations. 1 do should be laying down that we have a stan- hope, too, as 1 mentioned before at the dard to adhere to so that consumers can get second reading, that if at any time we see a product which is not variable as it is at subordinate legislation applied over here the moment, but a standard, well dressed, which is going to be inimical to Manx agri- well presented product which will help to culture, we will take advantage of the final sell it. I think that is all I have to say except Article of the Protocol where we can deal that once again I would like to emphasise with difficulties which arise on either side. that we must look at these orders as they come in. It is our responsibility to see that Mr. Cringle: Mr. Speaker, very briefly, 1 these orders are suitable for the Isle of Man. am not very happy at all with the Bill which is in front of us this morning. I think the Mr. Kermeen: Mr. Speaker, when, on the hon. member for Garff, Dr. Mann, in his 1st January 1973 the Isle of Man achieved contribution this morning, albeit at third the special relationship with Britain at that reading stage, posed a very good question time and joined the enlarged Community, indeed when he said to us, exactly what there was a statement made, one of the most benefits are the Isle of Man going to get out authoritative statements ever made by His of this particuar piece of legislation? Quite Honour Deemster Moore as to where we frankly, what concerns me is that I do not stood. It is worth repeating what he said really think this House is fully aware of about the implication of Article 1.2 which either the implications of the Bill or, as the comes within the scope of this Bill. He said: doctor rightly asked, what benefits are we "Within the Community principles for free going to receive out of it? In fact, if my trade throughout the whole Community memory serves me correctly, three or four area, which for this purpose will include the members at the second reading staged asked

European Communities (Implementation of Article 3 of Regulation 706/73) Bill—Third • Reading Approved. HOUSE OF KEYS, JUNE 6, 1978 K339

the hon. mover what would happen if we time Tynwald had to make, and that is • did not pass it? Come to think of it, either being in or completely outside. To similarly, I still do not think the hon. mover try to sell our products across a tariff told us what would happen. So I would like barrier, from an agricultural or a light him to tell us what would happen if we did industry point of view, would have been not pass it today. There are possibly other disastrous for this Island. I still think that ways of doing this and I think this method a great deal of thanks and credit is due to which has been chosen is probably an easy the people who negotiated the agreement way out; 1 think that is probably the crunch which we now have in the Isle of Man in of this, it is an easy way out. It is a way relation to the European Economic Com- in which we can just accept, by order, in munity. None of us, again I say, wants to coming through Tynwald with probably lose sovereignty, but we had to. Personally very little debate, European Community I was against Britain going in, but when Articles being, as has been said already this Britain went in there was no way in which morning, rubber stamped. So I am not the Isle of Man could stay out. So this was particularly happy with this Bill at all. In the best that could be done in all the circum- fact I have got a jolly good mind to vote stances. The only thing I would say in against it now, even at the third reading respect of the hon. member for West Dou- stage, because I feel the House has not got glas, Mr. Kermeen, is that while 1 would the information which it really requires to agree with the Common Market Committee • pass this. I am fully aware that the hon. and the secretary of the Common Market mover is going to tell me this is particularly Committee helping to analyse what in fact an administrative matter. I can appreciate was being fed through from the Com- that and I know it is for administrative pur- munity, I would still suggest that the re- poses that this Bill is passed. But there prob- sponsibility laid down in this Bill is with the ably are other methods, there probably are Boards themselves. I would hate to see a other ways in which it could be very well duplication of the very vast amount of work handled, and it could probably be more that, for example, is done in our own office beneficial to the Isle of Man than doing it of the Local Government Board because in this manner. there is somebody who is continuously going through regulations to see what part, Mr. Anderson: Mr. Speaker, 1 do not if any, of those should be applied to this think any member really wishes to see us Island. I do not think we have any alter- losing any sovereignty, and this is really native this morning but to approve the Bill what this is about. Let us face it, every now before us. member of the Community has lost sove- reignty, as has the United Kingdom. In fact, Mr. Swales: Mr. Speaker, when 1 read what we are looking at here this morning is page I of the Bill and page 2 of the Bill very largely water under the bridge. When dealing with Articles I and 3, from this I we accepted to go into the Community, would say that this Bill is purely—and I • albeit under a limited membership, we think I may have said this before — it will accepted really the contents of this legis- provide the legal framework to enable the lation. We accepted then that in some way Manx Government to operate the provisions we were going to be restricted, and that of the special relationship entered into with regulations would be forthcoming which the European Economic Community in 1973. would be applicable to the Island. I do not Having done this, when these regulations think there is any way out of it at this stage come forward to the Boards of Tynwald, and I would, with respect, disagree with my chiefly the Board of Agriculture, it is up to hon. friend from Garff that it is in fact the Boards — we are governed by Boards opening the door any further than in fact of Tynwald — it is up to the Boards to do has existed since we became members of the their work on these and to decide which Community to the extent that we are. I do particular regulation applies, or will apply not think this is so at all. I feel that at this to the Island, or will not apply to the Island, stage to say no would put us in opposition. or should be tailored or re-tailored to suit I know I posed this question myself at the the requirements of the Island, and to get second reading. What we are doing is in touch with those in Brussels if in fact looking back at the decision which at that they feel that some modification could well

• European Communities (Implementation of Article 3 of Regulation 706/73) Bill—Third Reading Approved. K340 HOUSE OF KEYS, JUNE 6, 1978 be made in the interests of the Isle of Man. it. Let us not talk about throwing this out But I do feel that this is purely an adminis- this morning. To be plain, we know the trative Bill and because of this I am pre- rules, let us play by them. In the future, if pared to support it. we find that it would be better for us to become if possible a fuller member of this Mr. Speaker, I do sym- Mr. Delaney: particular agreement, 1 think we should do Dr. pathise with the hon. member for Garff, so because it seems to me we are getting Mann. I do appreciate what he said and 1 the dirty end of the stick all the time, Mr. believe what he said is correct. Had this Speaker. My hon. friend, the member for argument been put forward originally, be- Ramsey, said this is the Board of Agricul- think the House might have fore 1973, 1 ture. Well, we all know how administrative had a different view of it. But this morning they have been over the last couple of years. I find myself in a quandary where he was We have just had the results of a report and talking about not supporting or supporting a Commission, so we all know how adminis- this. This piece of legislation is solely to trative they have been, so I do not think look at other legislation which we agreed to there is much hope for us in the future with as associate members. Now my hon. friend the present situation where we have all this and colleague . . . legislation going to the Board of Agricul- A Member: We are not an associate ture, and we know what is happening inside member. the Island, never mind outside it. Mr. Delaney: We are sitting on the fence. Dr. Mann: Mr. Speaker, could I just as a Well, 1 will get to this point now. My hon. point of clarification correct the hon. mem- friend, the member of the Executive Council ber? We are not an associate member. To here is in a position where he or one of his be an associate member you have to be a friends has to come to the House and put sovereign state. We are not a sovereign forward this particular Bill, and what have state. we got? We all stood up and we all agreed Mr. Watterson: Mr. Speaker, it is in- when we came to the original agreement to teresting to note how views change in this sit on the fence, and we thought we were House. 1 was the first person to speak out getting the best of both worlds. I remem- against this Bill, and the only one at the ber reading headlines in the newspaper second reading. Now 1 notice that one or about this, the best of both worlds, and now two people have been doing their home- we are finding we have no world whatso- work, quite correctly, and have come ever, because when they decided on the basically into line with what I said at the rules they said you are an associate mem- start. There is nothing wrong in belonging ber and once we agreed to that we had no to a club and there is nothing wrong in representation; we cannot veto anything and abiding by the rules, but it is how you abide we have no-one to speak on our behalf. by the rules, and I do not mean by twisting Recently we have had a situation where them either. There is a danger in this Bill, somebody else spoke for us, so let us talk and what saddens me is that we do not seem • about us. We are in a cleft stick here, and to be learning from history. You do not what is going to happen, Mr. Speaker, is have to go back very far in this House and that if we do not pass this, as my friend, in Tynwald Court to find legislation passed the hon. member for West Douglas, pointed through, enabling legislation to keep the out at the last sitting, they have rules also books straight, things to sort out any inter- to govern that situation, and we have also national problems, and what happens? agreed to those rules. We have agreed to Trouble comes from them later. Not in one the rules and unfortunately all the rules go year, not in five years, but in 10 or 15 years. against us. I do not believe, Mr. Speaker, You all know one problem which is be- although I would like to, that 1 can vote setting us at the moment, an international against it this morning. Whether we sit on one. There is another. I have said it before the fence or not, we entered this agreement because it happens to be the department wholeheartedly. We thought we were getting I am involved in, and that is in broadcasting. a good deal. 1 do not think we did, but Our predecessors just threw away our rights nevertheless we entered. Now, if we want by small enabling pieces of legislation which to reverse that situation, all right, let us do gave us no rights to do what we hitherto

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had the right to do. Now, I am not anti- merits which are pouring out of Europe. I European, in fact I am far from it, but I think what we have got to do, Mr. Speaker, do not like to see a Bill going through this is go back to the original idea born out House which will enable the bureaucracy, of the last war that was started off, well, the civil service, to produce an ever- long before Churchill, but Churchill pushed increasing weight of paper which, with the it, of a united Europe. We have seen only best will in the world, members of this this week that this united Europe is very House will not understand, and it is likely necessary and we have got to accept that to be passed through as the law of this a united Europe politically, and I think Island. There must be a better way to do economically, is vital in the world today. it. 1 do not believe this is the way to do Here we are, a little tiny Island, 64,000 it and 1 believe that this Bill, during the people, at the end of the line, and we are past few weeks, has shown one thing and not prepared to let our own Board which that is that we must stop now and look at we set up, a Board of Tynwald, look at what we are doing and see if we are doing the agricultural problems that are arising, it the right way, and then come back with and it is the agricutural problems that what is suitable for the occasion. We talked appear to be dominating Europe. I am about sitting on the fence, but we will be quite convinced that Europe would be sitting on the fence and we will have so united had it not been for the French much paper work and so much legislation farmer, the Manx farmer, the English in front of us that we will fall off, and you farmer, every farmer, arguing over the price know what happens if you fall off farm- of dung, over the price of eggs, over the yard fences, you know what is usually price of sheep, over the price of potatoes; below. all the arguments evolve around the farm- yard. The rest of Europe are geting on very Mr. MacDonald: Mr. Speaker, I think well indeed. In my own Board I get regula- some members appear to be getting very tions and rules which have been inter- confused over this Bill. If you read the nationally accepted, international rules that explanatory memorandum it is quite clear: have been recommended, and we are falling "The object of this Bill is to require the into line. After we have checked them, some appropriate Board" — in this case, as in things we are not agreeing to, no-one is most cases, the Board of Agriculture and shouting at us for not doing it, but as far Fisheries —"to make orders applying to the as possible we are all in the one boat and Isle of Man, with necessary modifications we are all in the one sea and it is no good and adaptations, such subordinate legis- us saying we are all going to port when lation of the United Kingdom as appears to we get into the harbour and everyone else the Board to be necessary" — and they then turns to starboard. This is what we are have to come back to Tynwald and get it trying to do and I feel today, Mr. Speaker, approved. Now what more democratic pro- that we are getting confused. All this is cess can you have? Just what other way doing is making certain the "buck" sticks 4, can you do it? Are you going to say we will were it should stick in the case of agricul- not require the Board of Agriculture to tural produce. It sticks right in the lap of check these, and completely ignore them the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries. and not bring them in, and then suddenly Now, they may not want it. Maybe they are out of the blue we will find we are breaking frightened of it, but if they are frightened of the agreement or we are breaking the rules it let them make way for the group which and regulations. Rather than set up another will accept it, but the "buck" is going to department of Government, which is all you stop there, right in their lap. They are will have to do if you do not do this, you responsible under this Bill for vetting every- will have another lot of civil servants and thing that comes through which is liable to they will spend their time upstairs wading through stuff which the Board of Agricul- apply to us or is applicable to us. They have ture, a responsible Board, should be doing. got to make their minds up, come to Tyn- If the Board of Agriculture needs support, wald, get Tynwald's approval, then if the well by all means, if we decide so, give them majority have the feeling that they do not the support to do the work, to wade through like it we, as Tynwald members, can kick it the agricutural regulations, rules and amend- out and bear the consequences ourselves. As

European Communities (Implementation of Article 3 of Regulation 706/73) Bill—Third Reading Approved. K342 HOUSE OF KEYS, JUNE 6, 1978 it is I think this is the only way of doing doing. We have sought so many authori- it. I hope the House sticks to where they ties who expressed their view, "In my • were last week. opinion . . ." 1 can do the same next week. I can write a paper and say, "In my opinion Mr. P. Radcliffe: Mr. Speaker, the hon. this is all nonsense." To me, let us get to member who has just resumed his seat re- tile highest level we possibly can and we ferred to the explanatory meorandum. To will know in future where we are going. me, I think there is one important point which we want to get clear in our minds. In Mr. Lowey: Mr. Speaker, if I may just this explanatory memorandum it simply add to that. I think the hon. member there mentions the obligations the Isle of Man has has really summed up. He has been constant under Article 3 of Regulation 706/73. Now, throughout this particular debate, on this as I said the last time we spoke about this, particular Bill, on pointing the way of getting to me there is only one way of finding this out of our difficulties. I think there is a fear out, that is going to the Community and in the House amongst certain members as to finding out for ourselves. Because we get so where this will lead us. Will it commit the many people saying, "In my opinion you Island further? Now it is my belief that the have to do this, that and the other." 1, like !sle of Man was committed in 1972 when the hon. member for Garff, in trying to do they decided the arrangement then. 1 have some homework on this legislation, turned a letter here from the present-day Attorney- up a letter which came to the Local Govern- General and he explains to me that this Bill • ment Board on 28th June 1973. It was is in respect of trade in agricultural products signed by the then Attorney-General, now only, so that really disposes of one of the our Second Deemster, Arthur Luft, and main factors in the learned member for this is basically what he says: "The Isle of Garff's argument that it could lead to other Man does not conduct its own international things. Now that is from the Attorney- affairs. These are dealt with by the United General's office dated 17th May of this Kingdom. Any question as to Community year. Now there are two schools of thought legislation cannot be decided by the Court on whether we should be in this invidious of Tynwald, by a court of justice in the position of sitting on the fence. There are Isle of Man or by a court of justice in two alternatives to that. We can either be England. These community instruments can full members with all that implies, and only be interpreted by the Court of Justice perish the thought, or out altogether. Now. of the Community. A regulation, for when you go out, let us be very careful what example, which is put into force by the that means regarding employment and all Community automatically applies to Eng- the rest of it. It certainly will raise many, land and no court in England, nor the Parlia- many problems, but have we an instrument ment of England, can approve or interpret of Government at this moment in time that that regulation. Similarly, the Legislature in can look at this. The answer is yes, we have. the Isle of Man, no more than the courts We have the European Economic Com- there, can say whether a regulation applies munity Committee in being at this moment • or does not apply to the Isle of Man, much in time. Now all I can say to the hon. less could the Court of Tynwald approve a Chairman of Executive Council is that I do Community instrument." Now, how many hope he will take back to his colleagues people's advice are we going to have before there for urgent consideration the request of we get down to brass tacks and say, let us the Chairman of Finance Board for a Com- go to the Community and find out for our- mittee of Government -1 do not care how selves? To me, the Bill today specifically it is composed — to go to Brussels and get says we are passing this legislation so that spelled out in clear layman's language just we can conform with our regulations and we exactly where we are. The first thing we accepted those regulations, and there is have got to do is to get rid of this fear, nothing to make us do anything that the that somehow we are committing ourselves regulations, under their proper interpreta- and future generations. tion, can force us to do and to me the main Mr. Irving: We are making very heavy thing is getting these regulations interpreted weather I think of a purely administrative by somebody of the highest authority. We matter. It is no use talking about getting then would know exactly what we were out. I am surprised the hon. member for

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Garff, Dr. Mann, for whom I have the we are not clear, but the general situation • greatest admiration, should not have is well known. 1 believe it is very tempting realised that we did expect directives in the this morning so say, "Oh, I am not voting case of animal health and nothing could be for this Bill, they are imposing more on us, more obvious than that. We knew very well we should be deciding this, we are not going the question of animal health was going to to copy English legislation, we are not going be involved. Now, the hon. member said to be told by Brussels." Now, as far as I am the special relationship we had with the concerned 11 hon. members of this Court Community may be getting lost. I hope it is can afford the luxury of this irresponsibility not, I see no sign of that. I believe that this morning, in taking that view, as long one of the greatest things we have got to as I get my 13 votes, but 1 believe that it guard against nowadays is being drawn is absolutely imperative that this legislation further and further into the affairs of the goes through. Anyone listening to the debate European Community. My hon. colleague in this Chamber might well think, "If that said we have no-one there to speak for us. is really the view of the Manx Government, Thank goodness we have not. We certainly I will never come to any agreement with the do not want representatives going to Manx Government. I will never do a deal Brussels, otherwise we are going to find that with them because I suspect they would not we will be full members of the Community keep their word. They would not carry out before we know where we are. their responsibilities." Now that would be quite wrong, but hon. members are giving • Mr. Delaney: We are now. the impression that we really are not pre- Mr. Irving: We are not full members now, pared to do what we said we would do when sir. Everybody was delighted that we got the we agreed to the Treaty of Accession. This best of both worlds. We hoped at one time Regulation 706, which is law in the Isle of to have the association with the Community Man whether we like it or not, when this merely for free trade, but to stay out. We comes along we have to accept it and I am decided later it was better to be in only saying for goodness' sake let us create the for free trade, because we got certain other machinery so as to carry out our obliga- advantages. The hon. member speaks about tions. We are not getting in anything any Manx nationals being the only difference deeper. I would be the last man in this House and dealing with our own taxation; most who would want to get further involved with important, but nothing whatever to do with the Community. Hon. members have said trade in agricultural products. He said we there are different ways of doing this. Now, get nothing out of Community funds. Of no-one has come forward with any different course we get nothing out of Community way yet. We see in the United Kingdom - funds because we put nothing in. Any hon. we do not have to follow the United King- members who think we should be full dom — designated ministers to do this sort members of the Community, it might be of thing. We are not handing it to a minister suggested they table a motion to Tynwald or some individual here. We are saying if and let us get down to it. I think what we the Board concerned believes that it is should be more concerned about, not expedient or necessary to follow the United whether we go in as a full member, but how Kingdom, then they create an order which we can retain the present most satisfactory will have to be approved by Tynwald. I can position which we do have. think of nothing more democratic. I can think of nothing here that draws us deeper We do not know what the Mr. Delaney: into the Community. I think it is important position is. that the Manx Government should give the Mr. Irving: We do know what the position impression that when they sign a treaty they is. There are certain areas where we are not are prepared to carry out all its obligations. clear. Hon. members have said, suppose we do not? If we do not carry out our obligations The Chairman of Finance Mr. Delaney: under Protocol 3, then Protocol 3 will be Board does not know what the position is. changed. It is laid down that it can be Mr. Irving: The Chairman of the Finance changed, and if we are not prepared to play Board can say what he likes. I am sure he ball in trade in agricultural products, then will agree there are certain matters where the Community are going to take action

• European Communities (Implementation of Article 3 of Regulation 706/73) Bill—Third Reading Approved. K344 HOUSE OF KEYS, JUNE 6, 1978 against us. Frankly I would have thought far the House has agreed to that, but there the less we talk to the Community about was another part of the Bill which hon. • trade and agricultural products in the isle members did not like and that was that of Man, the better. But I do implore hon. places other than those with 50 residents on members, even though they are not happy full board terms or residential accommoda- about it, and it is no pleasure to me to come tion for 200 should be able to have a forward with a Bill like this, but I hope that carbaret licence. Now the House has decided hon. members will accept the responsibility that cabaret licences should be restricted to and vote for the third reading and I beg to those premises offering residential accom- move. modation, so there is no question, if the third Mr. Watterson: A point of clarification, reading of this Bill is carried, that all sorts of Mr. Speaker. ]f this enables us to keep in small public-houses, for example, throughout line with the rules of the club and we have the Island would be able to put on live enter- been in for six years, what have we been tainment late at night. I hope that hon. doing in the meanwhile? members will appreciate that there genuinely is a demand amongst tourists to the Island, Mr. Irving: We should have had this for late night entertainment and it would legislation long ago, that is the answer. seem, certainly to us in the Tourist Board, The Speaker: The resolution, hon. mem- that it would be reasonable that this enter- bers, is that the European Communities tainment should carry on until one o'clock (Implementation of Article 3 of Regulation in the morning. I would remind hon. mem- • 706/73) Bill 1978 be now read a third time. bers that entertainment and drinking facili- Those in favour please say aye; against, no. ties are already available at the Lido until A division was called for and voting 2 a.m. and, of course, in the Palace Hotel resulted as follows:— until 5 a.m. I do not think I need say any more, sir, except that it will be confined to For: Messrs. Anderson, Quirk, J. J. Rad- fairly large hotels, not small public-houses, cliffe, P. Radcliffe, J. N. Radcliffe, and these premises will have to be approved Callin, Creer, Lowey, Walker, Cringle, by the licensing bench and by the Tourist Mrs. Quayle, Messrs. Moore, Ward, Board, and the Tourist Board will certainly Delaney, Irving, Mrs. Hanson, Messrs. have to approve the standard of live enter- Kermeen, MacDonald, Christian, Swales tainment. There is no question of them just and the Speaker — 21. putting on a record player. Performers must Against: Dr. Mann, Messrs. Watterson be present and performing, and I would and Craine —3. assure hon. members that there are restric- The Speaker: Twenty-one votes in favour, tions on this; it is carefully controlled. At three against, the resolution carries and the the moment there are only eight establish- Bill is read a third time. ments on the Island who have this sort of licence and I hope hon. members will sup- port the extension and I beg to move the LICENSING (AMENDMENT) BILL - third reading of this Bill, sir. • THIRD READING APPROVED. Mr. Delaney: 1 beg to second and reserve The Speaker: Turning next to the Licen- my remarks. sing (Amendment) Bill 1978 I call on the hon. member, Mr. Irving, to take the third Mr. Anderson: Mr. Speaker, I just want reading. to make the point which I was unable to make at the second reading when I had the Mr. Irving: Now, sir, here again one is misfortune to second the amendment and looking for 13 votes, not 12. I would like reserve my remarks, which apparently under to remind hon. members that when this Bill the regulations I am not allowed to do. I was first introduced it did propose that want to put a big question mark in front of premises which had a cabaret licence, which the hon. member about the point of view enabled them to provide live entertainment, expressed by the Tourist Board that in fact could carry on their licensing hours during all the people visiting the Isle of Man want the summer period for an extra hour. It was to do so because of drinking facilities. suggested that these premises should have an extra two hours instead of one hour. So Mr. Irving: I did not say all of them.

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Mr. Anderson: Well, not exactly, but I lishments come out they are the ones who would just reiterate. Quite recently I was off suffer. Now I think that they are not looking the Island and one fellow came to me and forward to this facility which the mover of said, "1 came to the Isle of Man once, just this Bill is asking for because, if they are for a very short visit, but I never had any in the vicinity of the premises which are desire to come again. It gave the impression going to be licensed, and here 1 must hope of one big public-house and there was that the licensing bench—of course it is nothing else about it." Now, to me, this is certainly not within our province to tell a terribly wrong impression, a most un- them what to do — but 1 would hope that fortunate impression, and 1 would put for- they would be very careful about who they ward the point of view that in fact there give the licences to. l think there is a real are people who want a peaceful, tranquil difficulty here for the people in the smaller holiday when they come to the Isle of Man. establishments, who do not get a very good Maybe the younger generation want to go deal when the bigger establishments turn on until midnight and two o'clock in the their people out in the small hours of the morning, but there are the other people, and morning when the people in ordinary often the other people have money to spend boarding-houses are trying to get some rest. on the Island, who in fact want a bit of rest 1 think there is a point, certainly in Douglas and tranquility during their holiday and I town area, and if they are going to be in would suggest that in fact this would be the vicinity of the promenade or Broadway, counter-productive to many people. Maybe I anywhere like that, 1 think the small estab- come across a different section than the lishment is going to suffer. hon. member does, but there are a lot of people who really want this peaceful tran- Mrs. Quayle: Mr. Speaker, the professional quility which they find. I was just speaking body of persons in the trade, the Licensed to someone who was, in fact, out in the Victuallers' Association have not been con- wilds of Patrick for two or three days over sulted about this Bill and I believe they the last weekend, in a little country cottage, should have been consulted. away from every public-house, and they said Mr. Irving: They have been. it was the most marvellous time they had Mrs. Quayle: I am sorry, but 1 asked the had. They only regretted that they were not Chairman this morning and I asked two able to stay for a full week. Not for all the members last night and they clearly said things that were open until midnight, but they had not been consulted. 1. made the the peace and tranquility of this beautiful point that the member for South Douglas, Manx countryside with nothing but the Mr. Ward, has just made, about it affecting rooks to waken them in the morning. I think the ordinary licensee. Again, what 1 said last that the Tourist Board should think this week I reiterate, that any summer extension policy over. to a small and exclusive number of licensees Mr. Ward: Mr. Speaker, I do not think affects the business of the vast majority of that even my worst enemy could call me ordinary licensees. There is another point 1 narrow-minded in any way, but i feel that want to make, Mr. Speaker, whilst we are on this particular issue I have got to be at on licensing, because it seems to me that all least consistent. I did remark at the second the endless amendments enacted make a reading about the difficulty that we might stupidity of the licensing legislation, because present the police with in certain areas. Well, it is now so complicated and involved that since that time I have been approached by it appears designed to fox anyone en- several people, by telephone and letter, about deavouring to abide within the law. I feel small establishments, and I think this again this is wrong and 1 think we ought to is one of the greatest dangers about this. Now urgently look into the matter so that people who are running small establishments arising out of our endeavours there will be in the vicinity of the bigger ones, and al- one simple licensing Act, stating what the ready several of them have pointed out to law of the land is regarding licensing. me that during previous seasons even now, Mr. Delaney: On a point of clarification. with the groups and one thing and another, The hon. member mentioned the Chairman they do have a certain inconvenience to of the Licensed Victuallers' Association. their own visitors. When the biggest estab- Could she name the gentleman?

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Mrs. Quayle: Mr. Milton Cubbon I asked, go down to Port Erin or Port St. Mary you and the members I asked, one was a Mr. can have a quiet holiday. I would accept all • Walton. this, but it is not a case of one or the other, we want both. He says if you go Mr. Delaney: It was just Mr. Milton down at half-past-ten and tell the visitors on Cubbon, I wanted clarification on this. the promenade, you go home now, or you Mr. Walker: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I could have got to go into the Casino or into the agree wholeheartedly with the hon. member Lido. He forgot to mention also that they for Glenfaba, Mr. Anderson, when he says could go into the eight establishments which there are possibly three or four people in are already there with entertainment up to Patrick who did not want to see the inside midnight. ]f they are staying in a private of a public-house when they were on holi- hotel they can go home and they can drink day. Fine, and there is plenty of room for until nine o'clock the following morning them. In Port St. Mary, in Port Erin, there and carry on then for the rest of the day. are 400 or 500 holidaymakers, fine, they can The alternatives are endless. As I pointed go to bed early, this is great. But if you out at the second reading, we on the Island were to go down on Douglas promenade cater for those who like a drink. There is at half-past-ten in the evening, and ask the nothing wrong in having a drink, but really thousands of people walking along the pave- do we need to spend so much time in this ments or tell them that it is time to go home hon. House discussing licensing hours? in an hour, I know what they will say. I Honestly, I have only been here three years, • think it is wrong that they are all expected but repeatedly, two or three times a year to go to the Casino and the Lido for their this sort of Bill comes before us. It really is late night entertainment. I think we, in this a nonsense. I would suggest that a mora- hon. House, made a mistake at our last torium for two years on licensing legislation sitting when we put the amendment to this would do this House a power of good and Bill. It would seem to me ridiculous al- it would do the Isle of Man a power of together to suggest that because an estab- good. lishment has 50 bedrooms or whatever the criteria is, it can put on a better standard Mr. MacDonald: Mr. Speaker, 1 am of entertainment. think that is quite wrong against this suggestion made in this Bill. 1 and I think there are many places that are think there is no doubt about it, I an sick prepared to put on a decent standard of live and tired of the time spent on licensing Bills entertainment, and if they get the support or sitting here wading through licensing of the Tourist Board then I really do believe Bills. We set up a very good Committee or that they should have a licence extension Commission which went into this. I think it and I support this Bill. was Miss Thornton-Duesbery, a former member of this hon. House, who chaired it Mr. Lowey: Mr. Speaker, I am not going and she, I think, was one of the straightest to go into the pros and cons as 1 said last people 1 have ever met. It was very care- time, but what I do say is that they have fully done, and who wrecked that? The got to look at the advantages and the dis- • licensed victuallers wrecked it. Had they advantages of this particular piece of legis- accepted that they would have had a lot of lation. Now, the advantages, what are they? things today. As it was they did not want Will it attract one single extra visitor? Now, that and so it was withdrawn. It went all hand on heart, can you honestly say it will? the way through upstairs and so we did not Mr. MacDonald: The visitors said so. sign it and that was the end of that; back to Mr. Lowey: No, the visitors did not say square one. All the good ideas, all the so. thought that had gone into it, about 18 months of work and discussions, everybody Mr. MacDonald: They said they did not was considered, they were all talked to, and want it. we lost it because the Licensed Victuallers' Mr. Lowey: Exactly. The visitors said in Association changed horses at the last the report of the Tourist Board, which we stream and out it went. Since then, every commissioned last year, the night-life was month virtually, Mr. Speaker, this House not an attraction. That perhaps is an over- spends its time looking at yet another simplification. My hon. colleague says if you Bill. Now I would have thought if drinking

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is so valuable to the tourist industry, one simply extending it from 11 p.m. until 12 • of the best things the Licensed Victuallers' to 11 p.m. until I a.m., and that is a facility Association could have done was not put which people on holiday wish for. We are their prices up as they have just done. Not not going to go mad drinking. If you want the odd halfpenny, but twopence, threepence to go mad drinking you can go to the and fourpence. Now they are beginning to Casino and you can stay there until five realise they have gone too far and people o'clock in the morning if you want to. are beginning to realise they have gone too There is no evidence and nobody is sug- far and people are not going into the public- gesting that the premises which enjoy the house, they are going into the places where privilege from 11 a.m. until 12 o'clock at they have held their prices static. There the moment have been badly conducted. was no reason for this last increase. When There has never been one single complaint I looked at the increase and I even saw that from anybody about rowdiness, drunken- diabetic beer had gone up by fourpence a ness or anything else on the premises which bottle, I though, well, this is the end, right already are able to provide live entertain- at the beginning of the holiday season, ment and drinking from 11 p.m. until 12 smack up the prices boys, take it off them o'clock. Basically all they are doing is saying as fast as you can. They cannot justify this 12 o'clock in the modern world is too early on a brewers' increase this time, it is the and it should be extended until 1 a.m. I Licensed Victuallers' Association them- think this is a facility which many of the • selves who have put up the prices. The main tourists would enjoy. The amount of drink reason I am against this today is, as the they consume, as I mentioned at the last Chairman of the Police Board said, every occasion . . . We keep all the statistical in- time you have longer hours you have more formation and at closing times the cash troubles to deal with. I have noticed recently register totals are rung up and at midnight the number of cases which we have heard they are rung up again and at the end of in the Manx courts where the big excuse is, the night they are rung up again and in and I wish I was on the bench quite often: fact we can say how much was consumed "I had too much to drink." They are even in the extra hour and it is very small, but driving boats into each other now and nevertheless it is a facility for people. If saying, "Well, I had a few and that is the they want to have a drink they are able to reason." I only hope the Admiralty Court get it, so I would say do not let us make will deal with the people concerned because such heavy weather of this. I think almost this is the big excuse. I will not say how far the time has come to bring a Bill into this it can go, but now you are getting it in the House to adopt English licensing. courts in England and when a trial is on A Member: Agreed. they are even killing people and excusing themselves because they were full of liquor Mr. Christian: There was a reception at the time. It has gone too far. given by the Tourist Board for all the leading journalists from the national press. • Mr. Christian: Mr. Speaker, before I can They were full of admiration for the Isle of speak on this Bill I have, of course, to Man in every way but with one exception declare a personal interest in licensed and on this they were unanimous. They had premises in the first place. 1 do think that one complaint and that was about Manx this thing is getting out of proportion. licensing which they thought was abomin- Surely we are not interested in licensed able. Their particular complaint was that in victuallers? Catering for our tourists, that is England if you were staying in an hotel what we are interested in. After all the which had a licence you could invite a principle of this Bill was accepted long ago friend back if you wished for a drink and It was accepted, I would not like to say how as long as you bought the drinks and he did many years ago, but for the best part of 10 not you were not committing an offence. In years or something like that it has been the Isle of Man if they had a friend staying possible for licensed premises of a certain in a place, an hotel with only a limited standing which put on a good standard of residents licence, they could not go in and live entertainment to obtain an extension of have a drink with him in the hotel before licensing hours from 11 p.m. until 12 mid- they went to bed and they thought this was night. Basically all this Bill is doing is stupid and this was their unanimous

• Licensing (Amendment) Bill—Third Reading Approved. K348 HOUSE OF' KEYS, JUNE 6, 1978 opinion. The only complaint they had morning until 11 o'clock at night, and you dare not close your doors even if you have • against the Isle of Man was the idiotic licensing laws. no customers, because you might attract a customer in through the door. You are Mr. Delaney: Mr. Speaker, I would like therefore encouraging drinking. It seems to to vote against this Bill as it now stands. 1 me, Mr. Speaker, we have got to under- am not going to as I must support my stand licensing. You cannot understand it in colleague. He has had a battle, which un- its present form. I feel, Mr. Speaker, that fortunately we lost through the amendment my hon. colleague, during these three being put in. We can all stand up and say readings has tried to convey to the House, what we personally think about drinking. but I do not think we have got the message The reason for the Bill was to create com- across, that the idea is not to give an extra. petition in the business, to create a higher hour's drinking so that people can spend standard of business, to put better entertain- more time in the public-house. It is to try ment on in the Isle of Man, that is the to get the business circulating amongst reason for the Bill. To turn round now and those people who wish to take part, who say you do not need 50 bedrooms or 50 wish to get people to come into their paying guests, you can have half of that. It premises by providing good entertainment, is not solving the problem. We see the by encouraging custom not because they problem as being that we have a limited have a licence but because they want to use number of people who are putting enter- • that licence the best way possible through tainment on and some of them are not put- good business methods which is to put on ting on decent entertainment. They put on good entertainment. Now with the amend- one man with an accordion and get the ment as it stands we are making once again extension. They are in the minority, but we a nonsense of it. We are saying more will said they are using the licensing laws for get more and the eight people who hold their own advantage. My hon. friend, the these licences will get the extra hour. Good member for Rushen, asks why does it keep luck to them 1 say, but we have done coming up? 1 will tell you why. As the nothing for tourism, which was the object of member for Castletown pointed out, the the Bill. We have not done one thing. All we licensing laws in the Isle of Man are in such have done is give eight licensed places an a ridiculous state. During my five-year term extra hour's drinking, that is what we have in this House I will eventually get it across done. I am sorry, Mr. Speaker, those mem- that this is what the problem is. It is not bers who think they have helped to curb that I want longer hours, not that I want drinking in the Isle of Man have created Sunday opening or anything else because it once again an anomaly in the licensing laws. is catching a few votes, but because the law I think, Mr. Speaker, that this House would itself is an ass, sir, that is the problem. The be better and 1 would ask my friend . . . Isle of Man has messed about with the Mr. Irving: Are you speaking for the Bill licensing laws until no-one can understand or against it? them. There is one particular section which • my hon. friend from Ramsey has pointed Mr. Delaney: I am speaking for the Bill out, as a lawyer. Section 115 was instituted as it originally stood but the argument is by mistake in the Isle of Man, as anybody going to go down here, Mr. Speaker, and who has been a licensed victualler will tell hon. members should know the procedure. you. It tells you you must open. What a When it gets upstairs it is going to be kicked ridiculous situation, Mr. Speaker, where we in the teeth again. We know this from ex- stand up here and talk against drinking. 1 perience and I am sorry my friend from agree with them in most circumstances but Rushen has found that now is the time to the law in the Isle of Man says you must point out that we are not going to get one open your public-house if you want to more tourist through this Bill. You can use close it. How ridiculous can you get, to say the reference to tourism not taking ad- you are against drinking in certain forms vantage of the licensing laws two ways. and shapes and then allow a section of that Remember when 70 per cent. say they did law, which would be a simple thing to not come for the night-life, maybe the amend in the Isle of Man, section 115, which people we want to give the night-life to did says you are open from 10 o'clock in the not come at all. Maybe that is why we have

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had a drop in tourism. Who is to know? the second reading. • Maybe they have not come to the Isle of Man because we have no night-life to start Mr. Ward: Mr. Speaker, the Bill at with. I do not know and you do not know. present before the House will, I am sure, be We want to encourage better entertainment welcomed by members as its primary pur- during the summer season. At least one pose is to provide for the granting of driving member of the House of Keys, the hon. licences to medically disadvantaged people member for Castletown, followed my point on a more liberal basis than is presently per- of view that licensing in the Isle of Man is mitted, in the same way as their counter- parts in the United Kingdom. I know from a complete nonsense and we aid and abet the numerous inquiries to the Board that the system which does not work. many members are extremely interested in Reply, sir? The Speaker: this proposed legislation and for the benefit Mr. Irving: No, sir, thank you. 1 am quite of members to fully appreciate this object confident. of the Bill I would explain that under The Speaker: The resolution then, hon. present law relating to physical fitness to members, is that the Licensing (Amendment) drive, an applicant for a driving licence is Bill 1978 be read a third time. Those in required to declare if he is suffering from favour please say aye; against, no. any detailed disabilities and also any other A division was called for and voting reasons why driving by him might be a • resulted as follows:— source of danger to the public. If he is suffering from epilesy, giddiness or fainting, For: Mr. Quirk, Dr. Mann, Messrs. specified types of mental incapacity or in- Watterson, Walker, Moore, Craine, adequate eyesight, these complaints are con- Delaney, Irving, Mrs. Hanson, Messrs. sidered disabilities and a driving licence Kermeen, Christian, Swales and the cannot be issued. At the same time there Speaker — 13. are other illnesses which may cause the Against: Messrs. Anderson, J. J. Radcliffe, person to be a source of danger to the public P. Radcliffe, J. N. Radcliffe, Catlin, when driving but if they are not bar dis- Creer, Lowey, Cringle, Mrs. Quayle, abilities an applicant may demand to be Messrs. Ward and MacDonald — II. permitted to take a driving test and if he The Speaker: Thirteen votes have been passes such test he cannot be refused a cast in favour and 11 votes against. The Bill licence although the licence may be re- is read a third time. Now, hon. members, tricted to a vehicle of a particular construc- I would like your guidance. We have the tion or design, such as an automatic. A Road Traffic (Amendment) Bill to deal with person who has passed such a test is en- and I also understand, although 1 have not titled to renew his licence on declaring that been informed officially, that invitations his illness has not become more acute since have been extended to hon. members to the time he took his test. If, however, he attend a reception which is being held at declares that it has become more acute, or • this time so it might be a convenient time the Board has reason to believe that it has to adjourn. Suppose we adjourn at this become more acute, then the Board can moment and resume consideration of the require him to take a further test of com- Road Traffic Bill at 2.30 p.m.? petence to drive and if he passes the test It was agreed. his licence may be renewed. Consequently The Speaker: Thank you very much hon. then, at present, the ability to pass the driving members. The House will stand adjourned test is the determining factor in relation to until 2.30 p.m. all disabilities other than bar disabilities. Such a test is, however, only effective as the The House adjourned for lunch. sole arbiter of driving ability in the case of non-progressive limb disabilities such as loss, ROAD TRAFFIC (AMENDMENT) BILL deformity or loss of use of a limb. The — SECOND READING APPROVED effect on driving of other disabilities — CLAUSES CONSIDERED. needs to be assessed on medical advice. At The Speaker: Now we turn to the Road the present moment when considering these Traffic (Amendment) Bill 1978 and I call effects and taking licensing decisions the upon the hon. member, Mr. Ward, to take Board has to rely on the co-operation of

• Road Traffic (Amendment) Bill—Second Reading Approved—Clauses Considered. K350 HOUSE OF KEYS, JUNE 6, 1978 the applicant and his doctor and this unreasonable delay in Bills at the Home arrangement can sometimes place a doctor Office. I am sure this Bill has been there • in an invidious position. This Bill revises for many, many months and I wonder if the these existing requirements of road traffic hon. member would be good enough to law relating to the physical fitness of drivers inquire the date on which it was sent to the along the lines of the changes introduced in Home Office and show hon. members the the United Kingdom to enable the issue of type of delay we are experiencing in getting driving licences to persons who sulker from legislation before this House. certain disabilities. I would ask hon. mem- bers to accept that this is a most desirable Mr. Lowey: Mr. Speaker, whilst wel- change and at the clauses stage I would coming the principle behind the Bill, there intend to go through each relevant clause are certain parts of it that give me cause for in a fair amount of detail to explain how concern, not least of which is that between this is to operate. Members will be in- the doctor and patient relationship because if you look at page 7, (2)(b), it says: "The terested to know that the Isle of Man Medical Society and the Isle of Man authorisation referred to in paragraph (a) of subsection (I) of the section— (b) shall division of the British Medical Association authorise any medical practictioner who were consulted in this matter and are in may at any time have given medical advice agreement with the proposed changes. At the or attention to the applicant or licence same time the opportunity was taken when holder concerned to release to the Board drafting this Bill to regularise the position any information which he may have, or of persons taking up residence in the Island which may be available to him ..." Now who are not the holders of a driving licence I. would have thought that the use of the word of a type which would enable them to obtain "shall" is of course, as we all know, man- the grant of a Manx driving licence without datory; in other words it is not permissive. first passing a driving test in the Isle of I believe that this really will start to under- Man. This is presently provided for extra- mine a doctor/patient relationship because I statutorily. The opportunity was also taken believe most people feel when they go to to tighten the proposed requirements under their doctor that they do have a special the Road Traffic Act 1974 that certain relationship. Now I can understand when goods vehicles shall be subject to plated the police are involved in inquiries where weights and clause 9 of the Bill relates to perhaps there will arise a time where a this. With those few remarks, Mr. Speaker, doctor may have to give evidence in a court I beg to move the second reading of the of law, where under oath he will have to Road Traffic (Amendment) Bill 1978. divulge certain information, but 1 would Mr. Cringle: I beg to second and reserve have thought the Highway Board, and I my remarks. have a great respect for all three members Mr. Anderson: Mr. Speaker. we welcome of the Highway Board, to me they do not this Bill here and I am sure the hon. mem- come into that category and I am rather ber for Peel would wish to express that concerned. I will be speaking further on it, • as he has shown a particular interest in this I hope, when this particular clause conies Bill as I think I have in relation to people up because if you look later on in the self- who are suffering from epilepsy in particular. same clause when the resopnsibilities of the I am sure it will be welcomed because I Board are discussed it says "may include in think an injustice has been done for some a single notice" and "may at any time after considerable time to many of these people the service of a notice under that subsection who are quite capable of driving. serve a further notice or notices thereunder" Mr. Irving: Mr. Speaker, some of us who — so here we have, if vou like, one law are particularly interested in this subject feel being applied to the medical practictioners there has been a very great delay in the but when it conies to the Board itself they introduction of this sort of Bill. I wonder seem to be applying another set of rules. I if the hon. member would be kind enough do not like it and I cannot pretend I do. to inform hon. members at the next sitting As 1 say, with those major reservations I of the House on what date this Bill was sent welcome the idea that epileptics, for to the Home Office for their comments. example, who have a control over the ill- Now this, to me, is an example of the most ness, and most of them have tablets and are

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under regular supervision by their doctors, basing your opinion both on personal know- • it does seem to me a great injustice to that ledge of that person, his sense of respon- particular section of society to have been sibility and the information provided. denied a driving licence when other people Epilepsy is not the only medical condition with heart conditions, and I can enumerate that places us in this position but I think a variety of conditions which are highly this is the difficulty which has been found. dangerous and which can strike at any time It is very difficult when you examine a and yet they, if you like, are not controlled. person, there is nothing in that examination This Bill, I think, goes a long way to re- which will tell you whether a person has moving it but 1 would like the mover of the had an attack in the last three years. I notice Bill to give me a reassurance as I ant sure this Act specifically avoids laying down at there must be an answer to it, but I would this stage any definition, any limitation of like a reassurance that the doctor/patient the medical opinion. This was a fact in the relationship must be preserved. United Kingdom regulations that a person and a doctor together had to certify that the Dr. Mann: Mr. Speaker, like other mem- person had not had an attack in the last bers I obviously welcome this Bill and its three years. I do not know whether it is provisions. As far as the destruction or the intention of the Highway and Transport damage to the doctor/patient relationship, Board to do just that but there are the prac- of course this is very much in a doctor's tical difficulties of interpreting the regula- • mind when he has to advise people not to tions in good faith on everybody's part and drive for one reason or another and to place one has to bear in mind these difficulties the family doctor in a position, of course, when dealing with this sort of legislation. I, of denying access to driving to certain personally, welcome it because I do not people is a very serious responsibility. That think epileptics are any different from any can be got over and so can the objection other section of the popolation in their sense raised by the hon. member for Rushen by of responsibility. People have driven suf- ensuring that the doctor nominated by the fering from diabetes and administering Highway and Transport Board is not the insulin for years and it has been on their person's own doctor and that any medical own responsibility. If they were involved in information submitted is submitted to the an accident they had to prove to a court doctor nominated by the Board and not to the that they had acted responsibly in avoiding Board directly. 1 think this would get round danger to the public and in the end this has this particular objection which is a very real come down for every other medical con- one and in a small community I think there dition, so 1 welcome the Act. I think there is a strong reason for having a group of are, as the member for Rushen feels, one doctors acting independently away from the or two difficulties which people may object direct general practitioner/patient relation- to but there are ways around this. I think, ship. That is a personal view. I am not given goodwill, we can find ways around it. speaking for any organisation or any • medical society, it is a purely personal view. Mr. Kermeen: Mr. Speaker, the long title The difficulty that arose in the United King- of this Bill is to amend the Road Traffic Acts dom over epilepsy in particular is, of course, 1963 and 1974 and for connected purposes, that you are asked to state whether a person which is a very wide range of consideration has had an attack to your knowledge within and if I stray outside the scope of the Bill the last three years, and people suffering I am sure I will be rebuked by the Chair. from epilepsy are quite capable of disguising There are two Acts on the Statute Book at the fact that they have had an attack and the moment, the main Act, the Road Traffic unless that doctor attended such an attack Act and the 1974 Act. Have the Highway he would be totally unaware of it and, there- and Transport Board considered any other fore, you are acting in good faith in stating, changes in the law relating to road traffic in possibly incorrectly, that the person has not the United Kingdom and its adaptability to had an attack in the last three years. To a the Isle of Man? I ask this specifically certain extent you are also relying on the because the scope of this Bill is somewhat statement of the person themselves and restricted and there are other matters which unless you have any other evidence outside 1 hope the Highway and Transport Board to give any other opinion you really are are considering as possible changes to the

• Road Traffic (Amendment) Bill—Second Reading Approved—Clauses Considered. K352 HOUSE OF KEYS, JUNE 6, 1978 road traffic law. One is the protection of there any history of alcoholism in that persons resident in the Isle of Man from person? Should we not be querying whether • uninsured drivers of motor vehicles visiting an alcoholic should be given his licence the Isle of Man where claims may not be back? That is something which comes to capable of being pursued and the other, of mind as a case where we should be querying course, is the very controversial subject the possibility of whether those licences which, nevertheless, 1 do not think this should be given back into their hands or House should avoid and that is the intro- not. duction of breathalysers. Mrs. Quayle: Mr. Speaker, I think we Mr. Cringle: Mr. Speaker, very briefly, must recognise honestly that the standard can I just say that as a member of the High- of driving on the Island is poor, or shall I way Board I think that this is something say, we have a lower standard of driving which the House should be pleased is in here on the Isle of Man than on the main- front of it today. It has been awaited for land. Also the lack of maintenance of cars some considerable time, particularly the part on the Island is poor compared with the about the epileptics. 1 know the hon. mem- standard on the other side and both these ber for Peel is certainly interested in that. matters deal with safety factors. It there- I very well remember asking the Chairman fore seems very illogical that we deprive of the Highway Board at that time a ques- some persons on safety grounds of the right tion on this very subject, shortly after to drive and I, too, have personally been very disquieted by the lengthy wait for this • becoming a member of the House. I think for that reason alone we must accept this Bill to be put in front of us. The former hon. and I think the hon. member for Garff has member for Glenfaba, Mr. MacLeod, put the correct view on this from the brought this matter up numerous times in medical point of view. There are other the last House. Regarding the hon. mem- people who can drive at the present time and ber for Rushen, Mr. Lowey's remarks, surely there is no reason why they should not be we have a safeguard in the appeals to the driving and there is really no reason, magistrates' court. similarly, why epileptics should not be per- Mr. Moore: Yes, I just want to make a mitted to have a licence to drive at the same point, Mr. Speaker. I am not so particularly time as these other people with different concerned with the point that has already complaints. If I could just say in relation been raised with regard to section 5IA as to the question which has been raised by some members appear to be, because, surely my hon. colleague, Mr. Lowey, in relation if we look at this properly, it does say in to the clause which says doctors "shall" be the clause that was mentioned, on page 7. required. One thought there immediately (2)(b), "shall authorise any medical prac- flashes across one's mind. For example, we titioner" to do certain things. It does not know today that we have got over 31,000 say that it shall instruct the medical prac- vehicles registered on the Isle of Man. titioner to do certain things, it merely gives Now driving today is different, without any him authorisation to carry out a certain line • doubt, from what it was 10 years ago. The of investigation. Now, if the medical prac- vehicles are a lot different, speeds are a lot titioner as any objection to that, I am different, and in fact you are dealing with speaking about the medical practitioner who a lethal weapon, if you like to call it that, deals particularly with his patient, under when you are in control of a motor vehicle. subsection (I)(b) there is an alternative The situation can arise for the Highway method for the applicant, this is the person Board, shall we take, for example, someone we are talking about all through this. There who has lost their licence through the court is an alternative method which is open saying they should lose it for 12 months, to the applicant and that clearly states that or whatever, in a drink/driving case and the it will "require him, as soon as practicable, licence has been taken away from them. to arrange to submit himself for examina- That person then comes back to hold their tion by such medical practitioner or prac- driving licence at the end of that period. It titioners as may be nominated by the seems to be perfectly reasonable that the Board", so what I am saying is, if he does Highway Board should be able to question not like what happens in subsection (1)(a) through their own doctor, for example, is and, of course, (2)(b) is consequential upon

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(I)(a), if the person who has applied does Mr. MacDonald: It did take them a long not like what it says there and he does not time, but it took us a long time, too. Some want his medical practicitioner to disclose of the delay that worries me is of our own certain information the alternative that is making in the Isle of Man because we are open to him is contained under (1)(b). This so interested in getting a mass of stuff all is the way I read it so r do not think we put together and then presented just like a should worry about this question of saying book, and when that gets here, of course, we shall instruct the medical practitioners its chances of getting through are pretty well to do something. There is nothing in this nil. So I hope a lesson will be learned from Bill at all. It says we shall because you are this. If we want something urgently for giving a definite authorisation to the medical people who really are in need, well, let us practitioner to carry out a certain course of deal with it in a nice, tidy, little one-page action if he so wishes. If he does not feel Bill and get it through. that this is what he wants I think then he Mr. Quirk: Mr. Speaker, 1 just wanted to will say to his patient, if you prefer, how- say, too, that I am very pleased to see this ever, to go back to the Board and say that Bill coming forward because, as one among I am not prepared to give this information, many who know certain epileptics, some subsection (I)(b), surely, is open as an who have not had an attack since they were alternative. That is why I feel I am not par- young, and some who cannot even remem- ticularly worried about this section 51A. ber having an attack. But 1 just would like • Mr. MacDonald: to say that this Bill went through Parlia- Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to see this here today. It is over ment in 1968 and has worked very success- tour years since we started on this. 1 believe fully since then. I think we have taken it has been said that the delay occurred at advantage of that by seeing a Bill which has the Home Office, but most of the delay worked successfully in England now coming occurred here in the Isle of Man. A delay to the forefront here. 1 think, as Dr. Mann of about two years was due to the fact that says, epileptics are very, very responsible apparently the Highway Board or the Attor- people, and I am sure that this Bill will ney-General were waiting until they had a come as a great encouragement to them. I lot of stuff to bring forward, and this was support this Bill wholeheartedly. going to be a little bit in it, and I was getting Mr. Ward: First of all, Mr. Speaker, let more and more anxious about this particular me thank very much those who have sup- section with regard to the epileptics who have ported the Bill, and in fact that more or less this right to drive in the United Kingdom includes everybody because the criticism providing they get a clear chit from the of it is quite constructive. Certainly Mr. medical practitioner who is responsible for Irving's. 1 would acknowledge the point and them medically. I find quite often that there I am sure the Highway Board along with are lots of little things like this that tend to me would acknowledge the point that there be put off and put off, waiting for a bigger have been delays. I would not at this time I Bill to appear, and the bigger Bill is such apportion blame completely. I would cer- that quite often when the bigger Bill gets tainly agree with your desire to perhaps have before the floor of the House it gets the it for the third reading because I realise you chop because of another reason, and with are making a point, not only on the Road it go the little things which we want. We had Traffic Bill but on other legislation. I will a case of this recently. I remember, I think give you chapter and verse at the third it was in Executive Council, but 1 recall reading and give you, maybe, some of the saying to somebody, that I would prefer to reasons for the delay. I think, as the hon. handle it as a Private Member's Bill, just member for Peel has said, often enough the this one little bit, and it seems to have desire is to pack in as much legislation, speeded up since then, But I would not perhaps, into one document as can be blame the Home Office entirely. There were reasonably done. Maybe by a certain faults in the United Kingdom, they found amount of pressure it was decided by the a few snags arising. Highway Board to chase this and in some respects pluck it out of a complete big Mr. Irving: It took them a long time volume of traffic legislation. In answer to though, did it not? the hon. member for West Douglas, Mr.

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Kermeen, he is quite right. It has been held in the Bill, would impair the driving up for numerous reasons, and I think it efficiency, I think they would certainly be • certainly has not been the desire of the seeking powers to revoke the licence. I beg Highway Board to hold it up, but eventually to move. it has been plucked out of a whole host of The Speaker: Is it agreed, hon. members, legislation, and I am very pleased with the that the Road Traffic (Amendment) Bill be reception. On the question of Mr. Lowey now read a second time? Those in favour and medical information, certainly I think please say aye; against, no. The ayes have the whole structure of this Bill, the whole it. Clauses, sir. Clause 1. spirit of the Bill, certainly if we are setting out to help the people anyway I think the Mr. Ward: Clause 1, Mr. Speaker. Under whole spirit of it has got to be honesty. I existing law only the holder of a United think that in the reply from the Isle of Man Kingdom driving licence taking up residence Medical Society and the Isle of Man division in the Isle of Man is entitled to obtain the of the British Medical Association, I think grant of a Manx driving licence without they do make the point and I think it is very the necessity of his taking a driving test. fair to make it public at this time, that in The current practice of permitting the agreeing to the proposed changes in the holder of a driving licence issued in any legislation they are certainly of the opinion other country on taking up residence in the that it must be stresssed to the public that Isle of Man to drive on his foreign licence the onus is on the applicant for a driving for a maximum period of six months during • licence, and the holders of licences, to which time he must take and pass a driving declare their relevant disabilities to the test, is a concession designed to assist this Board, and that by failing to do so they are category of licence holder. This new sub- breaking the law. I think that this more or section will enable the new resident from less says it all because if the whole thing abroad to legally drive on his foreign licence is not based upon a certain amount of for a period, which is to be prescribed by honesty by the people who are the appli- regulations, to enable him to apply for and cants, well, of course, it puts the Board and take a driving test with a view to him being it puts everybody in difficulties. On the able to apply for the grant of a Manx question of doctor/patient relationship, the driving lincence. Subsections (1) and (2) of whole thing will be regularised by the High- the 1963 Act referred to in this clause pre- way Board when they make regulations scribe the requirements for drivers of motor when this Bill becomes law, and, of course, vehicles to have driving licences, and no-one you will have another option to pass the shall employ a ,person to drive a motor regulations. But I think the main thing is vehicle unless the person has a driving that I could not imagine where the Board licence. The clause also enables the Board, would even decide to be guilty of putting by regulation, to apply any enactments medical people in an invidious position if relating to domestic driving licences to the they did not want to do it. I think the regu- foreign licence. These enactments relate to lations will take care of that part of the such matters as the endorsing of a foreign • Bill. I thank Dr. Mann for his support and licence as an outcome of a motoring offence, his explanation. 1 think I have mentioned the forgery and mis-use of a licence. 1 beg Mr. Kermeen. With regard to Mrs. Quayle, to move. I can only thank her very much for her Mr. Cringle: I beg to second, Mr. Speaker. support, and 1 do make the point again that as far as the medical relationship is con- Mr. MacDonald: Could 1 ask, Mr. Speaker, there was one thing which always cerned, 1 think that will be taken care of in amused me, and that was if you came a fair and adequate way. As 1 said, the to the Isle of Man and you had a foreign whole thing is based on the honesty of the driving licence and you then went down and applicant. I can only say this and I can say took a driving test and you failed it, and the it now at this juncture. Even if the applicant examiner says to you, well, l cannot stop got as far as taking a driving test and it was you driving on the road. You have failed the thought, maybe by the examiner, or if the test but you can go on driving with this Board had any reason to believe that the licence you have got. Is that nonsense still disease, even if it was controlled as desired in force? Once you have failed, you have

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failed I would have thought. Certainly two the intention of the Board that the dis- years ago you could come here, fail your abilities to be prescribed, by regulation, for test and still go on happily driving for a the purpose of this section shall be epilepsy, year, I believe it was then, with your own severe abnormality, mental deficiency, driving licence. liability to sudden attacks of disabling Mrs. Quayle: Could I just ask, Mr. giddiness or fainting, other than those Speaker, if somebody comes with one of caused by a heart disorder corrected by a these foreign driving licences, are they able pacemaker, inadequate eyesight, as is the to drive in the United Kingdom? Is it the case in the United Kingdom. if it appears same position? from the declaration or if on inquiry the Board is satisfied that the applicant is so Mr. Lowey: Just one little query, Mr. suffering, then the Board shall refuse to Speaker. The hon. mover mentioned regula- issue a licence except in accordance with tions in his opening remarks. I see by clause (3)(a), (b) and (c) of this section, (3)(a) and 11 it says: "... such modifications or adap- (3)(c) — the relevant disability to be pre- tations as the Board may think fit". Do the scribed for the purpose of these paragraphs regulations have to come before Tynwald, will be a disability which is not progressive or are they at the discretion of the Board? in nature and which consists solely of any I have every confidence, as I said earlier one or more of the following:— Absence of here, in the Highway Board in making these one or more limbs; deformity of one or regulations. I just want some clarification - - more limbs; the loss of use of one or more do the regulations come before Tynwald or limbs -- if the application is for the re- will they be as a directive from the Board? newal of a licence and the disability has not Mr. Ward: If I could answer the last become more acute since the date of the question from Mr. Lowey first. I will cer- original driving test taken by the applicant, tainly make sure that 1 know for the third or if the application is one for the grant of reading, but my understanding is that once a provisional licence. (3)(b) outlines that we have made the regulations they will go epilepsy is to be prescribed for the purposes before the Branches in the normal way for of this section and the applicant will be passing. I think that is true. With regard to required to satisfy the Board that (i) he has the member for Peel on the foreign licences, been free from any epileptic attack whilst my understanding of it is that a man holding awake for at least three years at the date a foreign driving licence can drive in the when the licence is to have effect; (ii) in the Isle of Man for what is really an unofficial case of an applicant who has had such period, it has never been a statutory period, attacks only whilst asleep extending over of six months. In that event, the Board, by more than the three-year period; (iii) his regulation, would be seeking a period of driving would not be likely to be a source three months. If in that period the holder of danger to the public. Subsection (4) en- of the foreign driving licence has not ables the Board to revoke a licence or limit applied for and taken a driving test, he it to the driving of vehicles of a particular • could be in trouble. If he does not pass his construction or design if, as an outcome of driving test he could be put back to being a test taken by a learner driver, the Board is a learner driver. satisfied that the person is suffering from a The Speaker: The resolution, hon. mem- disability likely to cause him to be a danger bers, is that clause 1 stands part of the Bill. to the public. This arrangement enables Those in favour please say aye; against, no. action to be taken where a disability man- The ayes have it. Clause 2. fests itself during the conduct of a driving test. it may be one which the candidate Mr. Ward: This clause is in substitution quite honestly does not think would affect of the existing section 51 of the Road his capabilities as a driver, but he has not Traffic Act 1963. (1), (2) and (3) make im- portant changes to the present arrangements declared it on his application form and relating to the grant of licences so as to therefore no inquiries would be made before enable the Board to ask an applicant for a he was granted a licence. Clause 5, later on, driving licence to declare not only if he is gives the right of appeal against the Board's suffering from a prescribed disability but decision. Subsection (5) enacts that a licence also if he has at any time so suffered. It is revoked under subsection (4) shall be void

• Road Traffic (Amendment) Bill—Second Reading Approved—Clauses Considered. K356 HOUSE OF KEYS, JUNE 6, 1978 and a duty to return the licence is imposed Dr. Mann: Mr. Speaker, although that is on the holder. Subsection (6) re-enacts the a very long clause with many subsections procedure to be followed by the Board after I just want to ask one question which the making inquiries if it is satisfied that a mover may be able to answer and that is licence holder is not fit to drive. An im- that once a licence is issued, once you have portant change in the present law is made gone through all this and a licence is issued by dispensing with the existing requirement and he has passed the relevant test, at that the Board shall first give notice of its present that licence would then run for three intention to revoke. The licence holder's years. Is there anything in this clause, per- right, except in the case where he is suffering haps subsequently or in any other Bill or from certain diseases or disabilities, to claim Act that puts the responsibility on the holder to be subjected to a test as to his ability to of that licence to notify any change in his drive is abrogated. Subsection (7) makes it condition? At the moment if the Board clear that the term "disability" includes a becomes aware or suspects that there is any disease, and separate reference to a test of changes they can ask for a re-assessment, competence and a test of fitness or ability but should it not be laid upon persons them- are embodied in the new reference to a selves to notify the Board if their condition relevant test. This subsection also affirms that deteriorates or if their condition changes? a disabled driver who on applying for the At the moment, once you get your licence renewal of a driving licence after the coming for three years you are all right, whether into operation of the Road Traffic Act 1933 you lose a limb, or lose an arm, or lose an declared that notwithstanding his disability eye. Is there any responsibility laid on the he had for a period of six months prior to holder of that licence to notify a change in his application been driving motor vehicles his condition? and that the disease or the disability from Mr. Watterson: Mr. Speaker, there is just which he suffered did not cause him to be a one little point I would like to query. 1 was source of danger to the public, shall be under the impression that if you held a deemed to have passed the relevant test. driving licence that had been issued in Eire, Subsection (8)(a) enacts that a man who has this was invalid for use in the United King- passed a disabled driver's test, a relevant dom. But I do not see any reference to Eire test, in the United Kingdom or the Channel in this. Does that apply in the Isle of Man Islands shall be deemed to have passed a or is it different here? relevant test in the Isle of Man. In other words, continuing reciprocity. Subsection Mrs. Quayle: Mr. Speaker, a number of (8)(b) enables the Board to obtain informa- people come before the Board of Social tion from the United Kingdom authorities Security who have those little electrical on the medical history of a person who has invalid carriages. Do they have to have a taken a disabled driver's test in England. licence or are they able to go on the pave- ment without a licence? Mr. Kermeen: Just one query which the Mr. Ward: In answer to Mrs. Quayle . . hon. member may be able to answer. On page 4 —and I would like the hon. member The Speaker: We have a little difficulty in charge of the Bill to have the page in here. I have an amendment put forward front of him so he knows what I am talking upon which I think the hon. member, Mr. about — line 25, should not (ii) be (i) be- Kermeen, who is going to move it, is seeking cause subsection (2) of the new section 51 your guidance really as to whether or not concerns the Board's refusal to grant a you wish this amendment to be moved, and licence, and the new subsection (4)(i) of this in this regard I think probably the House new section 51 also says that the Board shall would agree to the hon. member replying. not grant that person a licence, whereas and if the need arises we can come back to this subsection (6) which I am quoting from the amendment. concerns notices in writing regarding the Mr. Ward: Just looking quickly at the refusal of an application. I wonder if he Bill now it does seem to me, Mr. Speaker, would check on that because I have an that in the drafting of the Bill we seem to amendment ready here if the hon. member have missed this. I had not noticed before, will accept it, which reads-- "for (ii) sub- and with your permission, and with the stitute (i)". House's co-operation, it is something that

Road Traffic (Amendment) Bill—Second Reading Approved—Clauses Considered. HOUSE OF KEYS, JUNE 6, 1978 K357

1 would rather like to check on if possible, provide. All relevant fees are no longer particularly on subsection (6). 1 do not know specified but will be prescribed by regula- the nature of the amendment and wonder tions. This re-enacts that a provisional whether I would be in order at this time to licence shall continue to have a validity of simply accept it and see what happens. six months. I beg to move. The Speaker: I think probably the House Mr. Cringle: I beg to second. and the hon. member who has tabled the The Speaker: It is proposed and seconded amendment merely seek to ensure that that clause 3, as printed, stands part of the the law is accurate in its presentation, and Bill. Those in favour please say aye; against, would be quite happy if the clause was no. The ayes have it. Clause 4. passed and the amendment placed in your hands, and, when we come to the third Mr. Ward: Clause 4(a) relates the re- reading stage, reserving the right for the ference to a test of fitness, and this term is House to go back on the suspension of now redundant. Again the reference to the Standing Orders, to clear up what is ob- fee is deleted as the same will be prescribed viously the possibility of a drafting error. by regulations. 4(b) adds a new subsection (2A) to enable the Board to restrict a pro- Mr. Ward: That would suit me very well. visional licence so as to authorise only the The Speaker: Is that agreed by the House? driving of vehicles of a particular class or description when it is known that the appli- It was agreed. cant is suffering from a relevant disability. The Speaker: Thank you very much. In 4(c), this is again to delete the now re- that case, do you have any other comments dundant term "test of fitness". I beg to on this clause? If not, 1 will put the question move. that clause 2, as printed, stands part of the Mr. Cringle: J beg to second. Bill. Those in favour please say aye; against, The Speaker: It is proposed and seconded no. The ayes have it. Clause 3. that clause 4 stands part of the Bill. Those Mr. Ward: Clause 3(a). This will enable in favour please say aye; against, no. The the Board to alter the fee payable for a ayes have it. Clause 5. driving licence by regulation and do away Mr. Ward: Clause 5 re-enacts, with minor with the necessity to make orders under the amendments, the right of a person aggrieved Fees, Charges, Etc., Enabling Act 1972. by the Board's decision to revoke or to limit Clause 3(b) — the amendments provided by the period of validity of a licence, or to this sub-clause, (a) enable the Board to grant refuse to issue further provisional licences, a licence for a shorter period than three which is a maximum of four consecutive, years. This is necessary to provide for the to a court of summary jurisdiction. I beg case of a disabled driver — and I think it to move. might be some sort of answer to the hon. Mr. Cringle: 1 beg to second. member for Garff — whose ability to hold a licence is conditional upon him satisfying The Speaker: it is proposed and seconded the Board at regular intervals as to his that clause 5, as printed, stands part of the continued fitness, and (b) to preserve the Bill. Those in favour please say aye; against, facility to exchange a driving licence. The no. The ayes have it. Clause 6. previous facility for the issue of a temporary Mr. Ward: Clause 6 deletes a specified fee visitor's licence valid for one year, at a fee and empowers the Board to prescribe of 50 pence, to a foreign motorist whose various fees by regulations. 1 beg to move. home driving licence expires during his Mr. Cringle: I beg to second. temporary visit to the Isle of Man is The Speaker: Is it agreed that clause 6 abrogated. This facility has been withdrawn stands part of the Bill? already in England because the arrangement It was agreed. made it possible in certain circumstances for a foreign driver to be able to drive on his The Speaker: Thank you, hon. members. foreign licence for just under two years. Clause 7 and Schedule 1. This was noticed very quickly in the United Mr. Ward: These provide for the amend- Kingdom and was much longer than the one ment or repeal of the following items of year concession this law was intended to the Road Traffic Act 1963:— 1. Consequent

Road Traffic (Amendment) Bill—Second Reading Approved—Clauses Considered. K358 HOUSE OF KEYS, JUNE 6, 1978 upon the abrogation of the issue of a travel anything up to 100 yards behind it. visitor's licence, the complimentary power I have noticed in England whenever I see to dispence with the requirement as to a these on the roads that they have all been driving test is also abrogated. 2. Deletion washed down before they are permitted out of the expression "test of fitness to drive". on to the roads. Here they all send a fine 3. This alters the present law concerning per- spray of cement behind them, especially on sons accompanying learner drivers so that it wet days, which makes it very, very is the person supervising the learner rather hazardous indeed travelling behind those than the person accompanying him who is wagons. The other one is the old custom in required to produce his licence to a police the Isle of Man of covering up loose constable if so requested. The amendment wagons, that is wagons filled with fine sand, provided by article 4 of Schedule 1 is con- or filled with cement bags, or filled with sequential upon the provision of the new stuff that throws off dirt and dust, and they section 51. The words which are deleted are are no longer covered with tarpaulins. I now superfluous. 1 beg to move. believe there is an old Act somewhere that says they should be covered. 1 am wondering Mr. Cringle: I beg to second. if the member, in examination of vehicles, The Sneaker: It is proposed and seconded would also take into consideration these two that clause 7 and Schedule I stand part of big hazards to road users today? the Bill. Those in favour please say aye; 1 understand against, no. The ayes have it. Clause 8 and Mr. Kermeen: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member will be coming back on Schedule 2. the third reading with some advice on the Mr. Ward. Clause 8 and Schedule 2 are matter I raised. At the same time would it self-explanatory and I beg to move. be in order for him to explain on the third The Speaker: Is that agreed, hon. members? reading insofar as there has been a sub- stantial amendment to section 52 of the It was agreed. principal Act, including the deletion al- The Speaker: Thank you. Clause 9 and together of subsection (6), that he might Schedule 3. inquire the reason for dispensing with this Mr. Ward: Clause 9 applies to various subsection (6) of section 52 which says: "In amendments specified in Schedule 3 of the any proceedings the fact that a licence has Road Traffic Act 1974 and has been inserted been granted to a person shall be evidence on the advice of the legislative draftsman, that for the purpose of obtaining the licence and is to repair defects which became clear he made a declaration that he was not dis- as the result of consideration being given to qualified for holding or obtaining the the draft Construction and Use Regulations licence." That provision has gone out of the which will make provision for "plates" and law. To give him advance notice 1 would "plated weights". I beg to move. like to inquire, on third reading, the reason for that. Mr. Cringle: I beg to second. Mr. P. Radcliffe: Mr. Speaker, 1, like the Mr. Delaney: Mr. Speaker, often enough hon. member for Peel, was wondering if the in the House of Keys, as has been said hon. member in charge of the Bill would before, a Bill comes through and they decide give us a bit more detailed information on to top-weight it with as much amending Schedule 3 where it refers to the circum- legislation as possible if that is a vehicle stances under which a goods vehicle may be which will take it through. This lot here I examined for the purpose of establishing am not so sure about. Here we have many its plated weight. I think this is a matter changes and I would just like the hon. which is going to cost the Manx Govern- mover to explain exactly what is entailed ment a lot of money before very long for the ordinary driver. because of the weight of vehicles now on Mr. MacDonald: Mr. Speaker, I consider the roads in the Isle of Man. 1 can take you that one of the biggest hazards on the road to certain roads where, if something is not today is, well, there are two types of done with them very shortly, it would vehicles, one is the Readimix vehicle which appear to me that they are going to be in wet weather completely coats your wind- smashed to pieces by the excessive weight screen with a fine spray of cement if you of some of our vehicles on the roads.

Road Traffic (Amendment) Bill—Second Reading Approved—Clauses Considered. HOUSE OF KEYS, JUNE 6, 1978 K359

Possibly the hon. member could elaborate Board to do this. Before I sit down 1 would a bit more on that detail and let us know like to take up the point which Mr. Delaney, what exactly is intended to be done under the member for East Douglas, did mention. this Bill. Of course, this is a matter which we did Mr. Ward: With regard to the hon. highlight before when the draftsman, or member for West Douglas, 1 would under- whoever it is, takes the opportunity to put take to get the necessary information at the into the Bill, which was intended for one third reading. On the matter of plating matter, all this other legislation. vehicles —and I do take the points which The Speaker: The resolution, hon. mem- the hon. member for Peel and the hon. bers, is that clause 11 stands part of the Bill. member for Ayre have made—this par- Those in favour please say aye; against, no. ticular clause at the moment is only speci- The ayes have it. Clauses 12 and 13. fying, and 1 think the whole thing is to do not think clause 12, Mr. bring us in line with the United Kingdom Mr. Ward: I legislation. I think with regard to many of Speaker, needs any explanation, it is self- the matters which both the member for explanatory. Clause 13(1) is the short title Ayre and the member for Peel have men- and 13(2) is the commencement which for tioned, my understanding of it is that many sections I and 9 to 13 and Schedule 3 is on of the regulations relating to construction this Bill being passed; the remainder on the and use would certainly cover a great num- making by the Board of a commencement ber of the matters. As far as the roads are order or orders. This enables the preparation concerned, of course, the Highway Board of the amendment to the present Driving are very concerned about this and quite a Licence Regulations in advance of the lot of our administration is certainly taken orders to bring sections 2 and 8 into up with worrying about the state of the operation. Thus, these regulations may be roads with heavy construction vehicles. submitted for Tynwald approval but they With regard to plating of vehicles this will will not come into operation until the make it law that they must plate the vehicles commencement orders are made by the with both their laden and unladen weight. Board. I think this is what concerns this particular Mr. Cringle: I beg to second. clause. Mr. Kermeen: 1 wonder if the hon. mem- The Speaker: The resolution, hon. mem- ber would explain why there is a distinction bers, is that clause 9 and Schedule 3 stand between sections I and 9 to 12 and Schedule part of the Bill. Those in favour please say 3 coming into operation on the passage of aye; against, no. The ayes have it. Clause 10. the Bill, whereas the others are on an Mr. Ward: Clause 10. in making certain appointed day? In other words, there are regulations it is sometimes necessary to going to be amendments on the Road Traffic include a reference to Acts of Parliament. Act 1963 on the appointed day, but amend- This clause makes it clear that such a re- ments on the Road Traffic Act 1974 im- ference includes a reference to that Act as mediately the Bill is passed. amended, repealed or modified. I beg to Mr. Ward: Quite frankly, I must hold my move. hand up here. It has been decided either by Mr. Cringle: I beg to second. the legal people or somebody that this is The Speaker: Is that agreed, hon. members? necessary. I think the effort has been made It was agreed. to get certain parts of this legislation to work as quickly as possible, but I can find The Speaker: Thank you. Clause 11. out why this has been done. Mr. Ward: It is sometimes convenient to The resolution, hon. mem- apply United Kingdom regulations of a The Speaker: technical nature relating to road traffic to bers, is that clauses 12 and 13 stand part the Island. For example, the Traffic Signs of the Bill. Those in favour please say aye; and General Directions Regulations of 1964 against, no. The ayes have it. The Bill is which were applied with certain exceptions read a second time. That, hon. members, by virtue of the Board's 1965 regulations of concludes our public business for the day. The House will now sit in private. the same title. This clause is intended to remove any doubt as to the powers of the The House sat in private.

Road Traffic (Amendment) Bill—Second Reading Approved—Clauses Considered.