Ninth Series, Vol. X No, 23 Thursday, Oct,4,1990 Asvina12, 1990/1912(Saka)
LOK SABHA DEBATES (English Version)
Third Session (Ninth Lok Sabha)
LOK SABHA SECRETARIAT NEW DELHI Price: Rs., 50,00 C ONTENTS [Ninth Series, Vol. X, Third Session -Second Part, 199011912 iSaka)] No. 23, Thursday, October 4 ,1990/Asvina 12,1912 (Saka)
Co l u mn s
Re. Adjournment Motion 3—7 Police atrocities in dealing with students’ agitation against Government’s decision on Mandal Commission Report and resort to self-immolation by students against the decision
Papers Laid on the Table 8—9
Motion Under Rule 388— Adopted 10 Suspension of Rule 338 Shri Mufti Mohammad Sayeed 10
Constitution (Seventy-sixth Amendment) Bill (Amendment of Article 356) -Introduced 10—11 Shri Mufti Mohammad Sayeed 10-11
Motion to consider 11-23 Shri Mufti Mohammad Sayeed 11
Clauses 2 and 1 23—39
Motion to Pass 39-59 Shri Mufti Mohammad Sayeed 39, 4 5 -4 6 Shri A. K. Roy 39—40 Dr. Thambi Durai 40—42 Shrimati Bimal Kaur Khalsa 42—44 Shri Inder Jit 4 4 -4 5
Re. Killing of innocent persons and burning of houses at Handwara in Jammu & Kashmir on 1st October, 1990 61—65
Re. Attention and care given by the Indian High Commission in London to Late Cuef Justice of India Shri Sabyasachi Mukherjee during his iltaess 65—111
Re. Setting up of Development Boards for Vidarbha, Marath- wada and other regions in Maharashtra. H I—116 (0 1 ^ 1 18S/N1>/91 (ii)
Co l u m n s Adjournment Motion 117—206 Police atrocities in dealing with students’ dotation against Government’s decision on Mandal Commission Report and resort to self-immolation by students against the decision Shri B. Shankaranand 117—133 Shri Samarendra Kundu 134-138 Shri Madan Lai Khurana 138-143 Shri Somnath Chatterjee 143—149 Shri Indiajit Gupta 149—160 Shri Kamal Nath 160—165 Shri Chitta Basu 165—169 Shri Kadambur M. R. Janardhanan 169—172 Shri Hari Kishore Singii 172—175 Shri Jag Pal Singh 179—182 Kumari Mayawati 182—186 Shri Uday Pratap Singh 186—188 Shri D. D. Khanoria 188—190 Shri Vishwanath Pratap Singh 190—205 Message fiom Rajya Sabha 207
Matters Under Rule 377 207—212 (i) Need to instruct State Governments to ensure minimum civic amenities in villages 207—208 Shri Mandhata Singh (ii) Need to supply more raw material to small scale units like Zenith Caibt.n, Maniyer Metals, etc. 208—209 Shrimati Vasundhara Raje (iii) Need tu take necessary steps for overall development of Sunderbans area in West Bengal 209—210 Shri Sanat Kumar Mandal
(iv) Need to remove discontent among the Sikhs in Puiyab 210— S. Atinder Pal Singh (v) Need to provide more funds for SC/ST students living m hostels of educational institutions, particularly in Orissa 210—212 Shri K. Pradhani LOK SABHA DEBATES
[English] LOK SABHA MR. SPEAKER: Let me take my scat first; please take your seat. PROF. SAIF-OJD-DIN SOZ: In Handwara 300 shops have been burnt to ashes, fifty houses and so many Thursday, October, 4 1990(Asvina 12, storehouses are gutted. According to 1912 iSaka) oiik'ial version 22 people were killed. [Translation] MR. SPEAKER: Please take your seat. [Enslish] The Lok Sabha met at four minutes PROF. SAIF-UD-DIN SOZ: They past Eleven o f the Clock have been killed by BSF mercilessly. 1 want to ?sk this Government whe- ther they will differentiate between in- [MR. SPEAKER in the Chair] nocent people. [Translation] [TrmvAc^ion] MR. SPEAKER: All right. You MR. SPEAKER: Today you are please go to your seat. Mufti Sahib very happy. will see to it. So^ Sahib, please take your seat. (Interruptions) (Interruptions) MR. SPEAKER : Soz Sahib. First. [English] I^ease take your seat. PROF. SAIF-UD-DIN SOZ: You [English] should allow roe. Kindly allow me to make a statement on what is h;ip* MR. SPEAKER: I am on my legs, pening in Handwara. They are killing Mr. Soz will you please go to your innocent people. 1 have a question teat? First take your seat. whether they will differentiate between innocent people. [Trmt^atkm] [Translation] PROF. SAIF-UD-DIN SOZ (Bara- MR. SPEAKER: Soz Sahib, mula): Please give me half a minute you oaly. please hear me. Please hear iriease go to your seat. 1 will ask my request I have also given Mufti Sahib to see to ii. notice of an adjoummeot motion, [English] what had happened in Handwara..... PROF. SAIF-UD-DIN SOZ: After (Interruptions) you pass the Punjab Bill, you should Re. Adlounment OCTOBER 4,1990 Motion allow me. Kashmir is burning; that regard to reservation policy from the is more important. following members:— 1. Shri B. Shankaranand MR. SPEAKER: Please take your seat. 2. Shri Harish Rawat (Imerrupiions) I give my consent to Shri B. Shan- karanand who has secured first place [Translation] in the ballot to move the motion in the following form :— MR. SPEAKER: I have already “The unprecedented situation re- said, whatever you are telling about sulting in a total collapse of ad- Administration, Mufti Sahib will see ministration, police atrocities on to it. students and youth, desperate acts of self-immolation by young [Engfe/i] girls and boys and loss of precious lives in the agitation against the PROF. SAIF-UD-DIN SOZ: I will resume my seat; but you should allow Government’s decision on the Mandal Commission Report.” me later. {Interruptions) MR. SPEAKER: Please take your Yes, Mr. Shankaranand. scat, 1 am not permitting you, Mano- [Translation] ranjan Babu. {Interruptions) SHRI MADAN LAL KHURANA SHRl SONTOSH MOHAN DEV (South Delhi): An unprecedented (Tripura West): You are busy with situation was created in Delhi on 2nd Punjab; but the Chief Justice of India October by the people who had come was killed due to negligence on the here from outside. What type of part of Indian High Commission. We speeches they delivered here? They want a statement from the External also went on looting in Delhi. May Affairs Minister. I know the action being taken by the Government in this regard? MR. SPEAKER; Sontosh Babu, please take your seat. MR. SPEAKER: Khurana Sahib, you will speak when there will be a discussion on adjournment motion. So now please sit down. 11.06 hcs. [English] RE. ADJOURNMENT MOTION SHRI B. SHANKARANAND (Chikkodi): The form that I gave P(^ce atrocities in dealing witii stn> was this. dentil agitation agvinst Goveminenfs decMoB on Mandal Cbmmission Re- MR. SPEAKER: This meets the port and tesort to self-inimolBtimi by requirement of the situation. You students against the decision may please read this.
SHRI B. SHANKARANAND: Let me say that the form that I gave to MR. SPEAKER: I have to inform the Secretariat was: the House that I have received two notices of adjournment motion regard- “The unprecedented situation re- ing police excesses on students in sulting in a total collapse of ad- various parts of the country and self- ministration, police atrocities on immolation by students against the students and ycwth, desperate acts decision of the Central Government in of self-immolation by young girls Re, Adjournment ASVINA 12, 1912 {SAKA) Motion
and boys and loss of precious [English] lives, and arising out of the de- plorable haste, ineptitude and ob- SHRI B. SHANKARANAND: Wc stinacy of the Prime Minister in do not accept the Mandal Commission dealing with a sensitive issue report and all that. It is something affecting the socicty as a whole/’ else. (Interruptions)
Sir. this is the form that I have MR. SPEAKER: Mr. Shankar- given. 1 do not think there is anything anand. you may nosv seek leave of the objectionable in this Motion. House.
Tran&lpfion] (fntcrruptiom)
MR. SPEAKER: I have told you SHRI B. SHANKARANAND: Mr. as to in what form it should be. You Speaker, Sir. I seek leave of the House have been a minister. Whatever you for moving the Adjournment Motion, regarding: have to say in your speech, you will say all that. “The unprecedented situation re- {Imermptiom) sulting m a total collapse of ad- ministration, police atrocities on students and youth, desperate acts MR. SPEAKER: 1 have removed ot self-immolation b} young girls only the allcgatory aspect. and boys and loss of precious lives and arising out of the de- [English] plorable haste, ineptitude and ob- This meets the requirement and 1 stinacy of the Prime Minister in think you will agree with me. deahng with a sensitive issue affecting the society as a whole”. (Interruptions) [Translation] SHRI A. CHARLES (Trivandrum): There is no translation. Sir. (Interrupt MR. SPEAKER: But you are read- tions) ing your own version of h.
[English] [Tramlaiion] Is the leave opposed? MR. SPEAKER. It is being trans- lated. So please take >our seat. SHRI YAMUNA PRASAD SHAS- TRl (Rewa): I oppose the leave. [English] This is not in order, SHRI B. SHANKARANAND: I do [T roftsfation] not think there is anything objectiona- ble in this Motion. You give me permission. I am op- posing this leave...... (Interruptions) MR. SPEAKER: Shri Shankar- anand, you will agree that the way in MR. SPEAKER: Shastri ji, please which I have formulated it, meets the sit down. requirement. (Interruptions) [Tramlatiori] I English] MR. SPEAKER: There is no res- triction on your speaking here, you MR. SPEAKER: I have not allowed know it very well you to make a speech. (Imerruptions) (Interruptions) 7 Re. Adjournment Motion OCTOBER 4, 1990 Papers Laid 8
[Translation] 11.13 hn. MR. SPEAKER; 1 am asking the PAPERS LAID ON THE TABLE house, whether anybody is opposing this leave? Stateowiit r«. audit comments on the Accounts of National Institute of [EngUih] Homoeopathy, Calcutta for the year 1985-M, etc. MR. SPEAKER, Those who are in favoui ot leave being granted may rise [Translation] in their places. THE MINISTER OF STATE IN Severed hoti. Meniherx rose. THE MINISTRY OF HEALTH AND lAMILY WELFARE (SHRI [TrariAlation] RASHEED MASOOD): 1 beg to lay MR. SPEAKFiR; i thinl. tnere nre on the table:- more than filty persons in favour. (D A Statement (Hindi and English versions) regarding causes for [English] and remedial steps taken on So, leave is granted. The le;ive is grant- Audit comments on the Ac- ed under Rule 61. The Adiournment counts of the National Institute Motion may be taken up just alter the of Homoeopathy, Calcutta, for Constitution Amendment Bill is pass- the year 1985-86. ed. (2) A Statement (Hindi and English PROF. N. G RANGA (Guntui): versions) showing reasons for You may please fix the time I'f that delay in laying the paper men- discussion. tioned at (1) above. I Translation] [Pltxed in Library. See No. Lt- 1536/90J MR. SPEAKER- It will be tiken up after a discussion on Punjab. Notifications under Customs Act, 1962, (Interi upturns) Finance Act, 1980 and Finance Act, 1989: and Anmial Report of the [English] Nati«>nal Institute of Public Finance and Policy, New Delhi for the year THE MINISTER 01 INFORMA- 1988-89, etc. TION AND BROADCASTING AND MINISTER OF PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIRS (SHRI P. UPENDRA): Lunch break will be there. {Inter THE DEPUTY MINISTER IN ruptions) THE MINISTRY OF FINANCE (SHRI ANIL SHASTRI); 1 beg to lay [Translation] on tlie Table: — MR. SPEAKER: It is lunch now. (I) A copy of the Notification No. so it will be taken up after lunch. G.S.R. 562(E) (Hindi and En- glish versions) published in the [En^ish] Gazette of India dated the 8th PROF. P. J. KURIEN (Maveli- June. 1990, together with an kara); Sir. 1 su rest that it may be explanatory memorandum, mak- ing certain amendments to taken up immediately after the lunch Notification No. 204/84-Cus- break. toms, dated the 20th July, 1984 MR. SPEAKER: Now, the Papers to regarding insertion of silver be I^id on the Table. bullion in the said Notification under Section 159 of the Cus- toms Act. 1962. Papers Laid ASVINA 12, 1912 {SAKA) Constitution 10 (76th Amend.) Bill
(2) A copy of the Notification No. 11.14 hrs. G.S.R. 547(E) (Hindi and En- MOTION UNDER RULE 388 glish versions) published in the Gazette of India dated the Sth Suspension of Role 338 June, 1990, together with an explanatory memorandum, seek- (Interruptions) ing to provide that the 1st day [English] of July, 1990 as the date from which the provisions of Chan- MR. SPEAKER: Now. Shri Mufti ter V of the Finance Act, 1990 Mohammad Sayeed. shall come into force issued THE MINISTER OF HOME under Section 71 of the said AFFAIRS (SHRI MUFTI MOHAM- Act. MAD SAYEED): Sir. 1 beg to move:
(3) A copy of the Notification No, “That Rule 338 of the Rules of Procedure and Conduct of Busi- 548(E) (Hindi and English ver- ness in Lok Sabha be suspended sions) published in the G izette in its application to the motions of India dated the 5th June, for leave to introduce, considera- 1990 together with an explana- tion and passing of the Constitu- tion (Seventy-Sixth Amendment) tory memorandum, regarding Bill, 1990. during the current Ses- exemption to passengers tra- sion of Lok Sabha”. velling on US dollar fare tic- kets from Inland Air Tiavcl MR. SPEAKER: The question is: with effect from the 1st July. 1990, under Section 49 of the “That this House do .suspend Rule 338 of the Rules of Proce- Finance Act. 1989. dure and Conduct of Business in Lok Sabha. in its application to [Placed in Library. See No. Lt- the motions for leave to intrcv duce. consideration and pa>ising of 1537/90] the Constitution (Seventy-Sixth Amendment) Bill, 1900. during the (4) (i) A copy of the Annual Re- current Session of Lok Sabha,” port (Hindi and English ver- The motion wa.s adopted. sions) of the National Institute of Public Finance and Policy. New Delhi, for the year 1988-89 along with Audit Accounis. 11.15 ht& (ii) A Statement (Hindi unJ En- CONSTITUTION (SEVENTY-SIXTH glish versions) regarding Review AMENDMENT) BILL by the Government on the work- ing of the National Institute of {Amendment of Article 356) Public Finance and Policy. [English] New Delhi, for the year 1988- 89. THE MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS (SHRI MUFTI MOHAM- [Placed in Library. See No. Lt- MAD SAYEED); Si*', I beg to move 1538/90] for leave to introduce a Bill further to amend the Constitution of India. 11 Constitution OCTOBER 4, 1990 Constitution 12 (76th Amend.) B ill. (76th Amend.) Bill
MR. SPEAKER: The question is: Aher, Dr. Daulatrao Sonuji “That leave be granted to intro- Ahmed. Shri Anwar duce a Bill further to amend the Constitution of India." Ajit Singh, Shri The motion wa.'i adopted. Ali. Shrimati Subhashini Amat, Shri D. SHRI MUFTI MOHAMMAD SA- YEED; I introduce the Bill. Anbarasu Era. Shri Antulay, Shri A.R. [Translation] Argal, Shri Chhaviram MR. SPEAKER: Matters under rule Arunachalam, Shri M. 377 shall be taken up after the Punjab bill is adopted. Athithan, Shri Dhanuskodi R. Bais. Shri Rame.sh 11.17 Ih s . Baitha, Shri Mahendra [English] Bala, Dr. Asim MR. SPEAKER: The House will Bala Goud. Shri T. now take up item No. 6, that is consi- deration and passing of the Constitu- Balaraman, Shri L. tion (Seventy-sixth Amendment) Bill. Bali, Shrimati Vyjayantimala SHRI MUFTI MOHAMMAD SA- Banatwalla. Shri G.M. YEED: Sir. I beg to move: Banera, Shri Hamendra Singh “That the Bill I'urthpr to amend the Constitution of India, be taken Bankhele. Shri Kisanrao Baburac into consideration.” Bansi Lai, Shri MR. SPEAKER: Before T put the Barman. Shri Palas motion for consideration of the Bill Basavaraj, Shri G.S. to vote. I would like to siy that this being a Constitution (Amendment) Basheer, Shri T. Bill, voting has to be by division. Basu, Shri Anil Let the Lobbies be cleared- - Basu. Shri Chitta Now the Lobbies have been cleared. Beg, Shri Yusuf The question is: Bega Ram, Shri “That the Bill further to amend Behera, Shri Bhajaman the Constitution of India, be taken into consideration." Bengali Singh, Dr. The Jx>k Sahha divided : Bhagey Gobardhan, Shri Bhajan Lai, Shri AYES Bhakata. Shri Manoranjan Division No. 2 11 -20 hrs. Bhardwaj, Shri Parasram Acharia. Sbri Basudeb Bhargava, Shri Girdhari Lai Adaikalaraj, Shri L. Bhartiya. Shri Santosh AgarwaL Shri J.P. Bhatia, Shri Ram Sewak 13 Constitution ASVINA 12, 1912 iSAKA) Constitution 14 (76th Amend.) Bill (76th Amend.) Bill
Bhattacharya, Shrimati Malini Dev. Shri Sontosh Mohan Bhosle, Shri Prataprao Baburao Etevarajan, Shri B. Bhuria, Shri Dileep Singh Dhakane. Shri Babanrao Birender Singh. Rao Dhankhar. Ch. Jagdeep Brahmbhatt, Shri Prakash Koko Dhawan. Shri Harmohan Chakravorty, Shn Susanta Dhumal, Prof. Prem Kumar Chand Ram, Shri Dikshit, Shri Narsinghrao Chandra Shekhar, Shri Dinesh Singh. Shri Chandrasekhar, Shrimati M. Dome, Dr. Ram Chandra Chandrashekharappa, Shri T.V. Fernandes. Shri George Charles. Shri A. Fernandez, Shri Joss Chatterjee. Shri Nirmal Kanti Fernandes. Shri Oscar Chatterji, Shri Somnath Gadgil, Shri V.N. Chaudhary. Shri Tshwar Gajkwad. Shri Udaysingrao Chaudhary, Shri Ram Prasad Gajapathi, Shri Gopi Nath Chaudhary, Shri Rudrasen Gamit, Shri Chhitubhai Devjibhai Chaudhry, Shri Kamal Gandhi. Shrimati Maneka Chauhan, Shri Prabhatsinh Gandhi, Shri Rajiv Chavda, Shri Khemchandbhai Gangwar. Shri Santosh Kumar Somabhai Giri, Shri Sudhir Chennupati, Shrimati Vidya Giriyappa, Shri C.P. Mudala Chidambaram. Shri P. Gomango. Shri Giridhar Chinta Mohan, Dr. Gounder, Shri A.S. Choudhury, Shri Lokanath Gudadinni. Shri B.K. Choudhury. Shri Saifuddin Gujral, Shri I.K. Chowdhary, Shri Dasai Gupta, Shri Dharmpal Singh Dandavate, Prof. Madhu Gupta, Shri Indrajit Danwe, Shri Pundlik Hari Hannan Mollah, Shri Das, Shri Anadi Charan Hansda, Shri Matilal Das. Shri Bhakta Charan Harish Pal, Shri Datta, Shri Amal Harsh Vardhan. Shri Delkar. Shri Mohanbhai Sanjibhai Heera Bhai. Shri Dennis, Shri N. Het Ram. Shri Deora, Shri Murli Hota. Shri Bhabani Shankar Deshmukh, Shri Chandubhai Indet Jit, Shri Deshmukb^ Shri Sudam Dattatrya Jag Pal Sinah. Shri 2—1 LSS ND/91 15 Constitution OCTOBER 4, 1990 Constitution 16 (76th Amend.) Bill (76th Amend.) Bill
Jai Parfcash, Shri Kurien, Prof. PJ. Jamuna. Shrimati J. Lakshmanan, Prof. Savithri Janardhanan, Shri Kadambur M.R. Lodha, Shri Guman Mai Jaswant Singji, Shri Lodhi, Shri Ganga Charan Jatav, Shri Than Singh Made Gowda, Shri G. Jatiya, Shri Satynarayan Mahabir Prasad, Shri Jawali, Dr. Basavaraj Mahajan, Shrimati Sumitra Jayamohan, Shri A. Mahale, Shri Haribhau Shankar Jeevarathinam. Shri R. Mahata, Shri Chitta Jena. Shri Srikanta Makkasar. Shri Shopat Singh Jha, Shri Bhogendra Malik, Shri Puma Chandra Jhikram, Shri Mohanlal Malik, Shri Satya Pal Jorawar Ram, Shri Mallik, Shri Mangaraj Joshi, Shri Dau Dayal Mallikarjun, Shri Ju Deo, Shri Dilip Singh Mandal, Shri Sanat Kumar Kabde, Dr. Venkatesh Manjay Lai. Shri Kale, Shri Sukhdeo Nandaji Mantosh, Shri Paul R. Kalvi, Shri Kalyan Singh Manvar, Shri Balvant Kamal Nath, Shri Marbaniang, Shri Peter G. Kamble, Shri Arvind Tulshiram Masudal Hossain, Shri Syed Kamson, Prof. Meijinlung Mathew, Shri Palai K.M. Kapse, Prof. Ram Ganesh Mayekar. Shri Gopalrao Kataria, Shri Gulab Chand Meena, Dr. Kirodi Lai Kaul, Shrimati Sheila Meghwal, Shri Kailash Kaushik. Shri Purushottam Mewar, Shri Mahendra Singh Keshari Lai, Shri Mirdha, Shri Nathu Ram Khan, Shri Arif Mohammad Mishra, Shri Balgopal Khan, Shri Sukhendu Mishra, Shri Janeshwar Khan. Shri Zulfiquar AH Mishra. Shri Raj Mangal Khandelwal. Shri Pyarelal Misra, Shri Satyagopal Khanoria. Shri D.D. Mohamed, Shri E.S.M. Pakeer Khurana, Shri Madan Lai Mukherjee, Shrimati Geeta Konthala, Shri Rama Krishna Mukhopadhyay, Shri Ajoy Kotadia, Shri Manubhai Munda, Shri Govinda Chandra Kumaramangalam, Shri P.R. Munjare, Shri Kankar Kundu, Shri Samarendra Muraleedharan. Shri K. 17 Constitution ASVINA12, 1912 (SAKA) Constitution 18 {76th Amend.) Bill (76th Amend,) Bill
Murthy, Shri Kusuma Krishna Patil, Shri Balasaheb Vikhe Murthy, Shri M.V. Qiandra Shekara Patil, Shri Basavaraj Naik, Shri G. Dcvaraya Patil, Shri S T. Naik, Shri Ram Patil, Shri Shivraj V. Nandi. Shri Yellaiah Patil, Shri Uttamrao Narayanan, Shri P.O. Patil, Shri Uttamrao Lakmanrao Nathu Singh, Shri Patnaik, Shri Sivaji Nayak, Shri Nakul Penchalliah, Shri P. Negi, Shri CM . Peruman, Dr. P. Vallal Nehru, Shri Arun Kumar Phundkar, Shri Bhaoosaheb Pundlik Netam, Shri Arvind Poojary, Shri Janardhana Nikam, Shri Govindrao Potdukhe, Shri Shantaram Nitish Kumar, Shri Prabhu, Shri R. Odeyar, Shri Channaiah Pradhani, Shri K. Pal, Shri Rupchand Pramanik, Shri Radhika Ranjan Pande, Shri Rajmangal Prasad, Shri Hari Kewal Pandey, Prof. Yadu Nath Prasad, Shri R.S. Pandeya, Dr. Laxminarayan Prasad. Shri V. Sreenivasa Pani, Shri Ravi Narayan Prem Pradeep, Shri Panja, Shri Ajit Purohit, Shri Banwarilal Panwar, Shri Harpal Singh Purushothaman, Shri Vakkom Paranjpe, Shri Baburao Raghavji, Shri Paraste, Shri Dalpat Singh Rai, Shri Kalp Nath Paswan, Shri Chhedi Rai, Shri Lil Baboo Paswan, Shri Ram Vilas Rai, Shri M. Ramanna Paswan, Shri Sukdeo Raje, Shrimati Vasundhara Patel, Dr. A.K. Rajeshwaran, Dr. V. Patel. Shri Oiandresh Rajeshwari, Shrimati Basava Patel. IShri Maganbhai Manibhai Raju, Shri Bh. Vijayakumar Patel, Shri Natubhai M. Raju, Shri M.M. Pallam Patel, Shri Ram Pujan Raju. Shri S. Vijaya Rama Patel, Shri Shantilal Purushottam Rajveer Singh, Shri Das Rakesh. Shri RJ^. Patel, Shri Somabhal Ram Awadh. Shri Pathak, Shri Harin Ram Babu. Shri A.G.S. Patidar, Shti Rameshwar Ram l^ a n . Shri 19 Constitution OCTOBER 4, 1990 Constitution 20 (J6th Amend.) Bill (76th Amend.) Bill
Ram Prakash. C3i. Sai, Shri A. Pratap Ram Sagar, Shri (Bara Banki) Sai, Shri Nand Kumar Ram Sagar, Shri (Saidpur) Saini, Shri Gurdial Singh Ram Sajiwan, Shri Sait. Shri Ibrahim Sulaiman Ram Singh. Shri Sanyal, Shri Manik Ramachandran, Shri Mullappally Saroj, Shri Sarju Prasad Ramadass, Dr. R. Sathe, Shri Vasant Ramakrishna, Shri Y. Save, Shri Moreshwar Ramamurthy, Shri K. Sayeed, Shri Mufti Mohammad Rana, Shri Kashiram Chhabildas Selvarasu, Shri M. Ranga, Prof. N.G. Serna, Shri Shikiho Rao, Shri J. Chokka Shah, Shri Babubhai Meghji Rao, Shri J. Vengala Shah, Shri Jayantilal Virchandbhai Rao, Shri K.S. Shakeelur Rehman. Dr. Rao. Shri R. Gundu Shakya, Dr. Mahadeepak Singh Rao, Shri V. Krishna Shakya, Shii Ram Singh Rasheed Masood, Shri Shankaranand. Shri B. Rathva, Shri Narayanbhai Jamlabhai Shanmugam, Shri P. Rathod, Shri Uttam Sharma, Shri Chiranji Lai Rathor, Dr. Bhagwan Dass Sharma, Shri Dharm Pal Rawat, Shri Harish Shastri, Shri Anil Rawat, Prof. Rasa Singh Shastri, Shri Yamuna Prasad Ray, Dr. Sudhir Shekhada, Shri Govindbhai Kanji- bhai Raychaudhuri, Shri Sudarsan Reddy, Shri A. Venkata Shingada, Shri D.B. Reddy. Shri B.N. Silvera, Dr. C Reddy, Shri Bojja Venkata Singaravadivel, Shri S. Reddy, Shri Kotla Vijaya Bhaskara Singh, Shri Ajay Reddy, Shri M.G. Singh, Shri Dhanraj Reddy, Shri P. Narsa Singh, Shri Har Govind Reddy. Shri R. Surender Singh. Shri Hari Kishore Reddy, Shri Rajamohan Singh, Shri Jagannath Singh, Shri Lalit Vijoy Routray, Shri Nilamani Singh, Prof. N. Tombi Roy. Shri Haradhan Roypradhan, Shri Amar Singh. Shri Pratap Sahay, Shri Subodh Kant Singh. Shri Radba Md>an 21 Constitution ASVINA12, 1912 (SAKA) Constitution 22 (76th Amend.) Bill (76th Amend.) Bill
Siogh, Shri Ram Naresh Umbrey. Shri Laeta Singh, Shri Ram Prasad Unnikrishnan, Shri K.P- Singh. Shri Sukhendra Vaghela, Shri Shankersinh Singh. Shri Surya Narayan Vanna, Shri Dharmesh Prasad Varma, Shri Ratilal Kalidas Singh, Shri Tej Narayan Varma, Shri S.C. Singh, Shri Uday Pratap Venkatesan, Shri P.R.S. Singh. Shri Vishwanath Pratap Verma. Shri R.L.P. Singh Deo, Shri A.N. Verma. Shrimati Usha Sodhi, Shri Mankuram Vijayaraghavan, Shri A. Soren, Shri Shibu Viswanatham, Dr. Soz, Prof. Saif-ud-din Yadav, Shri Chhotey Singh Srikantaiah, Shri H.C Yadav, Shri Chun Chun Prasad Sukhbuns Kaur, Shrimati Yadav, Shri Devendra Prasad Sultanpuri, Shri K.D. Yadav, Shri Hukumdeo Narayan Sumbrui. Shri Baguii Yadav, Shri Kailash Nath Singh Sundararaj. Shri N. Yadav, Shri Mitra Sen Suryawanshi. Shri Narsingrao Yadav, Shri Ram Sharan Tandel, Shri DJ. Yadav. Shri Ramendra Kumar Ravi Tarif Singh, Shri Yadav, Dr. S.P. Tarwala, Shri Amratlal Vallabhdas Yadav, Shri Sharad Thakore, Shri Gabbhaji Mangaji Yadav, Shri Surya Narayan Thapa. Shri Nandu Yadava, Shri Ramjilal Thomas, Prof. K.V. Yadvendra Datt, Shri Thorat, Shri S.B. Ya/dani, Dr. Golam Thungon, Shri P.K. Yuvraj, Shri Tiraky. Shri Piyus Zainal Abedin, Shri Tiwari, Shri Brij Bhushan NOES Tiwari, Shri Janardan Prasad, Shri R.S. Tyagi, Shri K.C. Rajdcv Singh, Shri Uma Bharati. Kumari Roy. Shri A.K. 23 Constitution OCTOBER 4, 1990 Constitution 24 {76th Amend.) Bill {76th Amend,) Bill
MR. SPEAKER: Subject to cor- [Tratislation] rection*. the result of the division is: MR. SPEAKER: Mr. Sontosh Ayes: 380** Mohan E>ev, he will be definitely al- lowed to speak. You are an experienc- Noes: 003 ed member; since he has given notice of an amendment the question of dis- The motion is carried by a majo- allowing him does not arise. rity of the total membership of ihe House and by a majority of not less (Interruptions) than two-thirds of the Members pre- sent and voting. MR. SPEAKER: Please sit down. Khuranaji please be brief. The motion was adopted, (Interruptions) MR, SPEAKER: Now the House SHRI MADAN LAL KHURANA will take up Clausc-by-Clause Consi- (South Delhi): Mr. Speaker, Sir, 1 deration. have only two points to make. I would like to submit that it is not Clause 2—Amendment of Article 356 the issue that elections are held within a period of six months or one year. SHRT MADAN LAL KHURANA But the point is that the elections (South Delhi): should be free and fair. Lest the divi- sive forces, after winning elections, Page 1, line 6,— should create adverse conditions in that State. So 1 would like to know for “four years” substitute— what steps the Government have “four years and six months” (2) taken during the last six months and what steps it proposes to take during MR. SPEAKER: Mr. Khurana, the coming six months. As per my would you like to speak on the information still there are certain amendment? forces at work, not the external forces, who dream of contesting the elections and coming to power. Their objec- SHRI MADAN LAL KHURANA: tive is to have a separate set of laws and identity for them in this country. Yes Sir. {Interruptions) The people advocating such things should restrain themselves. One thing SHRI SONTOSH MOHAN DEV T would like to make clear that in (Tripura West): Sir, I have no objec- democracy, elections are important. tion if you allow him to speak. But But in such circumstances, holding of then, you have to allow me also. {In elections may lead to a division of terruptions) country. Therefore, I would like the
♦ The following Members also recorded their votes AYES : Shri Upendra Nath Verma, Shrimati Usha Sinha, Sarvashri Manvendra Singh, Mandhata SingK, Ta^.limuddin, Kalka Das, Kapil Dev Shastri, Arjunbhaj Patel, K. Ramamohan Rao, Arif Beg, Shrimati Jayawanti Navinchandia Mehta, Dr. Shailendranath Shrivastava, Sarvashri Janardan Yadav, Ramdas Singh, Resham- lal Jangde, Dr. Khushal Parasram Bopche, Nandlal MeenaTarit Baran Topdar, Nani Bhattacharya, Dr. Thambi Durai, Sarvashri Ramasbray Prasad Singh, Vaman- rao Mahadik, Ashok Anandiao Dcshmukh, Manoranjan Sur, Dr. DebI Prosad Pal, Kumari Kamalaji Kareddula, Shri C. K. Kuppuswafny, Shrimati Uma Gajapathi Raiu, Sarvashri Suresh Kodikkunnil, Raja Ambanna Nayak Dore, D. K, Naikar, S. ^njamtn, Venkata Krishna Reddy Kasu and Srinivas Rao. SOES: Shri Kirpal Singh and S. Atinder Pal Singh. ♦* 381, As corrected. 25 Constitution ASVINA12, 1912 {SAKA) Constitution 26 (76th Amend.) Bill (76th Amend.) Bill
Government to come out with a clear agree with him that the B.J.P. is try- cut statement, as the Hon. Minister ing its level best to divide the coun- of Home has also stated the day be- try. It is putting Hindus and Muslims fore yesterday that Pakistan is against each other and in Punjab in- behind all these things. In my view, citing Hindus against Sikhs. The it is not good that the Panthic Com- B.J.P. is not in favour of elections in mittee actively participates in the Punjab. I condemn it. elections in Punjab with their opera- tional setup in Pakistan and creates SHRIMATI JAYAWANTI NA- an awkward situation in Punjab. T am VINCHANDRA MEHTA (Bombay ready to withdraw my amendment, North East): Mr. Speaker, Sir, in con- provided the Government commits that tinuation to all that what has been the forces out to have separate set stated by the hon. Members about of laws with an independent identity the B.J.P. I would like to say that in for themselves will be dealt with Punjab as on date 52 persons have severely and till normaly is restored been killed. We do not consider in Punjab, elections will not be held Sikhs or Hindus to be different. Both there. That is what I want to say. marry off their daughters to each other. We do not at all distinguish S. ATINDER PAL SINGH: Mr. between Sikhs and Hindus (Interrup Speaker. Sir. Mr. Madan Lai Khurana tions). We do not consider Sikhs and has cast aspersions on us. 1 would Hindus to be different. (Interruptions) like to know whether there have ever been communal riots in Punjab? MR. SPEAKER: Now take your Has anybody taken out rathyatras? seat. They talk of keeping the religion away from politics, but is not the [English] B.J.P. exploiting religious .sentiments? (Interruptions). THE MINISTER OF HOME AF- ,0n behalf of my party FAIRS (SHRI MUFTI MOHAM- T request them not to befool the MAD SAYEED): The general con- nation through this House and pro- sensus is that the extension to the Pre- mise to stop the rathyatra. They sident’s Rule may be given for only six should make their stand clear about months and within these six months rathyatra. They should also promise we should hold the elections. So, I not to bring religion into politics. request Shri Khurana to withdraw his amendment. Secondly, Mr. Madan Lai Khurana is trying to prove us to be traitors. [Translation] I would like to know whether this nation accepts us as Sikhs or not? SHRI MADAN LAL KHURANA: They must make their party’s stand I am withdrawing it. One of my clear. T reiterate the demand made brothers is Sikh and I do not say on the first of this month for a sepa- that Hindus and Sikhs are different. rate Vidhan which does not mean (Interruptions) constitution, but law. When we can have separate codes for Hindus and Muslims in this country then why they MR. SPEAKER: Mr. Khurana, no cannot make a separate law for the speech is allowed as this stage. You Sikhs? They always look upon us as know the rules. Please sit down. traitors. They seem to be prejudiced, so they should free themselves of all (Interruptions) such things. I again appeal to them to stop rathyatra in the national in- [Ertalish] terest MR. SPEAKER: Has Mr. Khurana SHRI KAMAL CHAUDHRY leave of the House to withdraw his (Hoshiarpur): Mr. Speaker, Sir. I amendment? 27 Constitution OCTOBER 4, 1990 Constitution 28 (76th Amend,) Bill {76th Amend.) Bill
AYES SEVERAL HON. MEMBERS: Yes. The Amendment No, 2 was, by leave, Division No. 3 1132 brs. withdrawn Acharia, Shri Basudeb [Translation] Agarwal Shri J.P. SHRl KIRPAL SINGH (Amritsar) : ...... (Imerruptions)...... Aher, Dr. Daulatrao Sonuji let it be decided as to when the elec- tions will be held in Punjab. If the Ahmed, Shri Anwar Hon. Prime Minister does not come out with a statement, then I am going Ajit Singh, Shri to sit on a dharna in (he House ...... {Interruptions) All, Shrimati Subhashini Amat, Shri D. MR. SPEAKER: You are a very senior member but T am not allow- Anbarasu Era. Shri ing you. Antulay, Shri A.R. [En(ilis'h] Argal, Shri Chhaviram
A t this stage Shri Kir pal Sinqh camc Arunachalam. Shri M. and sat on the aisle of the House, Athithan, Shii Dhanuskodi R. MR. SPEAKER: You pkasc go to Baig, Shri Arif your seat. Bais, Shri Ramesh A t this stage Shri Kirpal Singh went Baitha, Shri Mahendra back to his seat. Bala, Dr. Asim SHRI ANBARASU ERA: Sir, T Bala Goud, Shri T. am on a point of order. Bali, Shrimati Vyjayantimala MR. SPEAKER: There is no point of order. You yourself are laughing Banatwalla, Shri G.M. as you know you have no point of Banera. Shri Hamendra Singh order. Bankhele, Shri Kisanrao Baburao 1 shall now pul Clause 2 to the vote Bansi Lai, Shri of the House. Before I shall put Clause 2 to the vote of Ih? House, Barman, Shri Palas I would like to say that this beint? a Constitution (Amendment) Fiill, voting Basavaraj, Shri G.S. has to be by division. Basheer, Shri T. Let the Lobbies be clearcd— Basu, Shri Anil Basu, Shri Chitta Now. the Lobbies have been clear- ed. Behera, Shri Bhajaman The question is: Bengali Singh, Dr. Benjamin, Shri S. “That Clause 2 stand part of the Bill.” Bhagey Gobardhan, Shri The Lok Sahha divided: Bhajan Lai, Shri 29 Constitution ASVINA12, 1912 (SAKA) Constitution 30 {76th Amend.) Bill (76th Amend.) Bill
Bhakata. Shri Manoranjan Delkar, Shri Mohanbhai Sanjibhai Bhardwaj, Shri Parasram Dennis, Shri N. Bhartiya, Shri Santosh Deora, Shri Murli Bhatia. Shri Ram Sewak Deshmukh, Shri Chandubhai Bhattacharya, Shrimati Malini Deshmukh. Shri Sudam Dattatrya Bbattacharya, Shri Nani Dev, Shri Sontosh Mohan Bhuria, Shri Dileep Singh Devarajan, Shri B. Birender Singh, Rao Dhakane, Shri Babanrao Bopche, Dr. Khushal Parasram Dhankhar. Ch. Jagdeep Brahmbhatt, Shri Prakash Koko Dhawan, Shri Harmohan Chakravorty, Shri Susanta Dhumal, Prof. Prem Kumar Chand Ram, Shri Dikshit. Shri Narsinghrao Chandra Shekar. Shri Dinesh Singh, Shri Chandrasekhar, Shrimati M. Dome, Dr. Ram Chandra Chandrashekharappa, Shri T.V. Dore, Shri Raja Ambanna Nayak Charles. Shri A. Fernandes, Shri George Chafterjee, Shri Nirmal Kanti Fernandez. Shri Joss Chattcrji, Shri Somnath Gadgil, Shri V.N. Chaudhary, Shri Ishwar Gaikwad, Shri Udayasingrao Chaudhary, Shri Ram Prasad Gajapathi, Shri Gopi Nath Chaudhary. Shri Rudrasen Gamit, Shri Chhitubhai Devjibhai Chaudhry, Sliri Kamal Gandhi. Shrimati Maneka Chauhan. Shri Prabhatsinh Gandhi, Shri Rajiv Chavda, Shri Khemchandbhai Giri, Shri Sudhir Somabhai Giriyappa, Shri C.P. Mudala Chennithala. Shri Ramesh Gomango. Shri Giridhar Chennupati, Shrimati Vidya Gudadinni. Shri B.K. Chidambaram, Shri P. Gujral, Shri I.K. Choudhury, Shri Lokanath Gupta, Shri Dharmpal Singh Choudhury. Shri Saifuddin Gupta, Shri Indrajit Chowdhary, Shri Dasai Hannan MoIIah, Shri Dandavate, Prof. Madhu Hansda, Shri Matilal Danwe, Shri Pundlik Hari Harish Pal. Shri Das. Shri Anadi Charaa Heera Bhai, Shri Das. Shri Bhakta Charan Het Ram. Shri Datta, Shri Amal Hota. Shri Bhabani Shankar 3-1 LSS/N0/91 31 Constitution OCTOBER 4, 1990 Constitution 32 (76th Amend,) Bill (76th Amend.) Bill
Indcr Jit, Shri Mahajan, Shrimati Sumitra Jag Pal Singh, Shri M ihale. Shri Haribhau Shankar Jai Parkash, Shri Mahala, Shri Chitta Jangde, Shri Resham Lai Makkasar. Shri Shopat Singh Jaswant Singh, Shri Malik, Shri Puma Chandra Jatav, Shri Than Singh Malik, Shri Satya Pal Jatiya, Shri Satynarayan Mallik, Shri Mangaraj Jayamohan, Shri A. Mallikarjun. Shri Jeevarathinam, Shri R. Mandal Shri Sanat Kumar Jena, Shri Srikanta Manjay Lai, Shri Jha, Shri Bhogcndra Mantosh, Shri Paul R. Jorawar Ram, Shri Manvar, Shri Balvant Joshi, Shri Dau Dayal Marhaniang, Shri Peter G. Ju Deo, Shri Dilip Singh Masudal Hossain, Shri Syed Kabde, Dr. Vcnkatesh Mathew, Shri Palai K.M. Kale, Shri Sukhdeo Nandaji Ma>ekar, Shri Gopalrao Kalvi, Shri Kalyan Singh Meena, Dr. Kirodi Lai Kamal Nath, Shri Meena, Shri Nandlal Kamble, Shri Arvind Tulshiram Meghwal, Shri Kailash Kapse, Prof. Ram Ganesh Mehta, Shrimati Jayawanti Navin- Kataria, Shri Gulab Chand chandra Kaiil, Shrimati Sheila .VIcwar, Shri Mahendra Singh Kaushik, Shri Purushottam Mirdha, Shri Nathu Ram Keshari Lai, Shri Mishra, Shri Balgopal Khan, Shri Arif Mohammad Mishra, Shri Janeshwar Khan, Shri Sukhendu Mishra, Shri Raj Mangal Khan, Shri Zulftquar Ali Misra, Shri Satyagopal Khandelwal, Shri Pyarelal Mukherjee, Shirmati Geeta Kodikkunnil, Shri Suresh Mukhopadhyay, Shri Ajoy Kotadia, Shri Maniibhai Munda, Shri Govinda Chandra Kumaramangalam. Shri P.R. Munda, Shri Karia Kurien, Prof. P J. Munjare, Shri Kankar Lakshmanan, Prof. Savithri Muraleedharan, Shri K. Lodha, Shri Guman Mai Murthy, Shri M.V. Chandra Lodhi, Shri Ganga Charan Shekara Mahabir Prasad, Shri Naik, Shri G. Devarava 33 Constitution ASVINA12, 1912 (SAKA) Constitution 34 (76th Amend.) Bill (76th Amend.) Bill
Naik, Shri Ram Patil, Shri Uttamrao Nandi, Shri Yellaiah Patil, Shri Uttamrao Lakmanrao Narayan, Shri P.G. Patnaik, Shri SivajI Nathu Singh, Shri Peruman. Dr. P. Vallal Nayak, Shri Nakul Phundkar, Shri Bhaoosaheb Negi, Shri C.M. Pundlik Nehru, Shri Arun Kumar Poojary, Shri Janardhana Netani. Shri Arvind Prabhu, Shri R. Nikana, Shri Govindrao Pradhani. Shri K. Nilish Kumar, Shri Pramanik, Shri Radhika Ranjan Odeyar. Shri Channaiah Prasad. Shri Hari Kewal Pal. Shri Rupchand Prasad, Shri R.S. Pande, Shri Rajmangal Piiis.ul. Shri V. Sreenivasa Pandey, Prof. Yadu Nath Puiohit. Shri Banwarilal Pandeya, Dr. Laxminarayan Raghavji, Shri Pandian, Shri D. Rai, Shri Kalip Nath Pani, Shri Ravi Narayan Rai, Shri Lai Baboo Panja, Shri Ajit Rai. Shri M. Ramanna Panwar, Shri Harpal Singh Raje, Shrimali Vasundhara Parastc, Shri Dalpat Singh Rajeshwaran, Dr. V. Paswan, Shri Chhedi Rajeswari, Shrimali Basjva Paswan, Shri Ram Vilas Raju. Shri Bh. Vijayakumai Paswan, Shri Sukdeo Raju, Shri M.M. Pallam Patel, Dr. A.K. Raju, Shrimati Uma Gajapathi Patel, Shri Chandresh Rajveer Singh, Shri Patel, Shri Natubhai M. Ram Awadh, Shri Patel, Shri Ram Pujan Ram Babu, Shri A.G S. Patel, Shri Shantilal Purushottam Ram Dhan, Shri Das Ram Sagar, Shri (Bara Banki) Patel, Shri Somabhai Ram Sagar, Shri (Saidpur) Pathak, Shri Harin Ram Sajiwan, Shri Patidar, Shri Rameshwar Ram Singh. Shri Patil, Shri Balasahcb Vikhe Ramachandran, Shri Mulappally Patil, Shri Basavaraj Ramadass, Dr. R. Patil, Shri Shankarrao Ramamurthy, Shri K. Patil, Shri Shivraj V. Rana, Shri Kashirani Chhabildas 35 Constitution OCTOBER 4, 1990 Constitution 36 (76/A Amend.) Bill {76th Amend.) BUI
Ranga, Prof. N.G. Shastri, Shri Anil Rao, Shri J. Vengala Shastri, Shri Kapil Dev Rao. Shri K. Rama Mohan Shastri, Shri Yamuna Prasad Rao. Shri R. Gundu Shekhada, Shri Govindbhai Kanjibhai Rao, Shri Srinivas Shingada, Shri D.B. Rasheed Masood, Shri Shiwankar, Prof. Mahadeo Rathva, Shri Narayanbhai Jamlabhai Shrivastava, Dr. Shailendranath Rathod, Shri Uttam Silvera, Dr. C. Rathor, E>r. Bhagwan Dass Singaravadivel, Shri S. Rawat, Shri Harish Singh, Shri Ajay Rawat, Prof. Rasa Singh Singh. Shri Dhanraj Ray, Dr. Sudhir Singh, Shri Har Govind Raychaudhuri, Shri Sudarsan Singh, Shri Hari Kishore Reddy, Shri Kotla Vijaya Singh, Shri Jagannath Bhaskara Singh, Shri K. Manvendra Reddy, Shri P. Narsa Singh, Shri Lalit Vijoy Roddy, Shri R. Surender Singh, Shri Mandhata Routray, Shri Nilamani Singh, Prof. N. Tombi Roy, Shri Haradhan Singh, Shri Pratap Roypradhan, Shri Amar Singh, Shri Radha Mohan Sadul, Shri Dharmanna Mondayya Singh, Shri Ram Naresh Sahay, Shri Subodh Kant Singh, Shri Ram Prasad Sai, Shri Nand Kumar Singh, Shri Ramdas Saini. Shri Gurdial Singh Singh, Shri Sukhendra Singh, Shri Surya Narayan Sait, Shri Ibrahim Suluiman Saroj, Shri Sarju Prasad Singh, Shri Uday Pratap Singh, Shri Vishwanath Pratap Sathe, Shri Vasant Singh Deo, Shri A.N. Save, Shri Moreshwar Sinha, Shrimati Usha Sayeed, Shri Mufti Mohammad Soren. Shri Shibu Selvarasu, Shri M. Subedar. Shri Shah, Shri Babubhai Meghji Sukhbuns Kaur. Shrimati Shah, Shri Jayantilal Virchandbhai Shakeelur Rehman, Dr. Sultanpuri. Shri K.D. Shakya, Shri Ram Singh Sundararaj, Shri N. Shankaranand. Shri B. Sur, Shri Monoranjan 37 Constitution ASVINA12, 1912 (SAKA) Constitution 38 (76th Amend.) BIU (16th Amend.) Bill
Suryawanshi, Shri Narsingrao Yadav, Shri Hukumdeo Narayan Tandcl, Shri D.J. Yadav. Shri Janardan Tarif Singh, Shri Yadav, Shri Kailash Nath Singh Tarwala. Shri Amratlal Vallabhdas Yadav. Shri Mitra Sen Taslimudin, Shri Yadav, Shri Ramendra Kumar Thakore, Shri Gabbhaji Mangaji Ravi Thapa, Shri Nandu Yadav. Dr. S.P. Thomas, Prof. K.V. Yadav, Shri Sharad Thorat, Shri S.B. Yadav, Shri Surya Narayan Tiraky, Shri Piyus Yadava, Shri Ramjilal Tiwari, Shri Brij Bhushan Yadvendra Datt, Shri Tiwari, Shri Janardan Yuvraj, Shri Tyagi, Shri K.C. Zainal Abedin, Shri Unia Bharaii. Kumari NOES Umbrey, Shri I.aeta Unnikrishnan, Shri K.P. Prasad, Shri R.S. Vaghela. Shri Shankersinh Roy, Shri A.K. Varma. Shri Dharmesh Prasad fSingh, Shri Ramashray Prasad Varma. Shri Raiilal Kalidas MR. SPEAKER; Subject to cor- Varma, Shri S.C. rection*, the result of the division is; Venkate&an. Shri P.R.S. Ayes : 352** Verma, Shri R.L.P. Noes : 003 Verma, Shri Upendra Nath The motion is carried by a majority Verma, Shrimati Usha of the total membership of the House Vijayaraghavan, Shri A. and by a majority of not less than two- Viswanatham, Dr. thirds of the Members present and voting. Yadav, Shri Chhutey Singh Yadav, Shri Chun Chun Prasad The motion was adopted. Yadav, Shri Devendra Prasad Clause 2 war added to the Bill.
tWr«iiglj voted for Nocs and ftoin wrong seal. •The following Members also recorded their votes AYES: Sarvasltii Saraarendra KutJdu, Bega Ram, Satyapal Singh Yadav, Harsha Vardhan, Yusuf Beg, Ram Sharan Yadav, Kalka Das, Madan Lai Khurana, Maganbhai Manibhal Patcl, Arjunbhai Pate), Prem Pradecp, Mahadeepak Singh Shakya, Santosh Kumar Gangwar, Manik Sanyal, D. D. Khanoi ia, Girdhari Lai Bhar^ava, Tarit Ito- ran Topdar, Prof. Saif-ud-din Soz, Sa<-vashri Kadambur M. R. Janardhanan, Ramashray Prasad Singh, Dr. Golam Yazdani, Sarva Clause l—Short title extension. I consider that it is a wrong Bill being brought in at a wrong Amendment made time m a wrong way, and it would serve a wrong purpose. Page 1, line 3,— We have heard the question of col- for “Seventy-sixth” substitute l®^tive wisdom. Here, we are witness- ‘‘Sixty-seventh” ing collective lack of wisdom. This is something foolish. If the Govern- (Shri Mufti Mohammad Sayeed) ment do wrong, the Opposition can rectify it: but if the Government and MR. SPEAKER: The question is: the Opposition are collectively do wrong I want to know who will rectify “That Clause 1, as amended, stand it. The people outside are waiting for part of the Bill.” that day. The motion was adopted. Even in the reply which the hon. Clause I, aj; amended, vvos’ added Home Minister gave—and the Prime to the Bill. Minister wanted to give a reply, but later on he refrained from doing so: I do not know whether there was any MR. SPEAKER: The question is: pressure or not ~l do not know why “That the Enacting Formula and he abstained from explaining it. We the long title stand part of the are specifically interested to know Bill.” what were the steps specifically taken after the last extension, to make elec- rhe moiion woi^ adopted. tions possible; and why did Govern- ment fail, and what arc the drawbacks, The Enacting Formtda attd the Long and what were the difficulties and how Title were added to the Bill. they were contemplating to overcome them this time. This is a very specific question for which the House wants a SHRI MUFTI MOHAMMAD reply. Without that, it would be a SAYEED: 1 beg to move: Himalayan mistake—and it should be recorded like that. “That the Bill, as amended, be pssed.” DR. THAMBl DURAI (Karur): It MR. SPEAKER: 1 have received is a sad day today, because our bre- requests from 2 or 3 Members, that thren in Punjab will be missing the they want to speak at the time of pass- democratic system which was there in ing of the Bill. Now Mr. A. K. Roy —only two minutes each. the earlier days. During the debate most of the speakers, including the SHRT A. K. ROY (Dhanbad): Sir, Leftist groups, all said that they want- Last time also, I opposed the exten- ed early elections, but finally they sion; this time also 1 am opposing the have said that there is no conducive 41 Constitutioni ASVINA 12, 1912 (SAKA) Constitution 42 (76th Amend.) Bill (76th Amend.) Bill atmosphere there now. for elections in This is the highest forum where wc Punjab. are discussing everything. Sometimes we are passing Bills after having time adjustment, that also with discussion. But someone wrongly briefed the press Whatever be the position, during and Doordarshan this House was go- the debate also I had requested the ing to pass this Bill without discus- Prime Minister to let me know what sion, this is wrong. It should not are the steps he has taken to create happen in the future also. Therefore, confidence among the people of Pun- 1 request once again: Please take jab, whether he is going to give more action against those who have briefed funds to develop their language, and you, and also see that the Doordar- also whether he is going to declare all shan does not give <3 wrong picture of the national languages in the Schedule what is happening in this House. as the official languages of this coun- try. Only then i.e. only by creating such a confidence can they get the confidence of the people of the country. [Translation] SHRIMATI BTMAL KAUR Secondly, about economic measures, KHALSA (Ropar): Honourable Spea- I had asked the Prime Minister when ker, Sir, 1 have been opposing this he was going to bring the Bill for the constitutional amendment bill right Right to Work, and whether he was from the beginning and even today I going to bring it in this Session. He do so strongly. I want to inform the feels that the Constitution Amend- House that when the honourable ment Bill on Punjab has to be taken Prime Minister called a meeting of seriously; but he is forgetting the root the MPs from Punjab, it appeared cause of the whole problem in the from his views that he is in favour of country. I would tell him that only holding elections in Punjab. But the when he takes such an interest he can supporting parties like C.P.L, C.P.M. solve the problem of terrorism in this and B.J.P. are not in favour of elec- country. Therefore, I request the tions in Punjab, because of which the Prime Minister once again, land request Prime Minister had to surrender be- the Government to take early steps to fore them. These parties feel that bring Bill for the Right to Work in they do not have any support in Pun- this Session itself, if possible. Bills jab and they cannot win elections are brought to satisfy some sections of there on their own. I want to say the people, e.g. the Bill on the Coun- that the people who are advising the cils in the Agenda. We are moreover Prime Minister on Punjab these days there are many rallies organised which are the people who advised the former you have attended. When we Prime Minister Shrimati Irdira Gan- speak about our economy, we speak dhi also that terrorist activities in about petroleum scarcity. The Go- Punjab are increasing. The terrorists vernment is spending crores of rupees hide themselves and take refuge in in organisinc rallies and using petrol Harminder Sahib after committing for motor vehicles used for them gett- anti-social activities. That is why ing it here* and our economy has been they decided to conduct Operation affected. Therefore, T request the Blue Star in Darbar Sahib so that the Prime Minister onoe again, to see that terrorists can be driven aw^'v from he brings; the Bill for the Right to there. These people thought that the Work and thus solve the unemploy- situation in Punjab will improve ment problem in the country, and also through such steps, but its result is t3ke steps to resoect the culture and before us and every one of us is aware languages of all the sections in the of it. Such actions have deteriorated country. (Interruptions). the situation in Punjab instead of 43 Constitution OCTOBER 4, 1990 Constitution 44 {761 h Amend,) Bill (76th Amend.) Bill [Smt. Bimal Kaur Khalsa] the elections were held for Shriomani improving it. Previously these peo- Gurudwara Prabandhak Committee. ple used to say that terrorists hide My next submission is that elections themselves in Darbar Sahib after com- of the committee may he conducted mitting terrorist activities. But today as early as possible and the present I want to ask them as to why Dar- Prabandhak Committee be dissolved bar Sahib is surrounded by Police, immediately. T\\t present situation C.R.P. and B.S.F. from all sides. Why is such that no sikh can enter the Gol- sikhs are not allowed for praying den Temple for otVering prayers. there? 1 feel such actions won't im- When we went there after Blue Star prove the situation in Punjab rather Operation on 6th June for prayers, the condition will worsen. Let the the policemen arrested and jailed us. Government say as to why elections This is the present condition of Pun- are not being held in Punjab. Can jab. May T know whether the Consti- the situation in Punjab improve by tution of India permits to arrest youths not conducting elections there. Ins- from their houses and detain them in tead, the situation will worsen. To- jail for years together and no notice day, Shri Khurana's party is in favour to that effect is given. There was a of extending President’s rule in Pun- youth named Khushwinder Singh in jab. I want to ask him whether this our village Budhgarh who was arres- will help anyway in improving the ted by police three years ago. Till now situation in Punjab. Pcisonally, I feel his whereabouts are not known. His that the people who say that the situa- parents are wandering in search of tion in Punjab is not congenial for him. Similarly, there is one Kulvind- holding elections, arc tnemselves res- der Singh alias “kid" the only son of ponsible for the deteriorating situation his parents. He was rounded up by there. On the one hand they say that police in the presence of everybody. the atmosphere of Punjab is not good Now it is said that he is absconding. and elections can’t be held there and No body knows as to how many on the other hand they spoil the at- youths are rounded up from their mosphere by encouraging the anti-re- homes. They are taken by the police servationists movements. Bullet is not and released only after extracting 40 the solution of any problem including to 50 thousand rupees as ransom. This the problems in Punjab. Today Pun- is the situation in Punjab these days. jab is ruled by Police. Go and sec So the Government should announce yourself. How much worried the peo- in the House today itself the time by ple are there because of police atro- which elections will be held in Pun- cities. By extended Presidents rule, jab, and the way the situation will police is committing more atrocities be improved there and the steps to on people. The police and the bure- be taken in this regard. aucracy are not in favour of holding elections in Punjab. Today the situa- [Enf^lish] tion is such that Police have taken MR. SPEAKER; Mr. Inder Jit. the law in their own hands. The deci- sions which are supposed to come SHRT TNDER JTT (Darjeeling): from the courts are piven by the Pun- Mr. Speaker, the Home Minister is jab Police and the otticers there. Even requesting Mr. Khurana to withdraw dleath sentence is awarded by the his amendment in the hope that we Police. If you are really in favour hope to hold the elections within six of improving the situation in Punjab months. In my view, more expression you should announce the date of elec- of a hope is not enough. I want a tion in Punjab and suitable time for firm commitment from the Horae the same in the House just today. Minister and in fact from the Prime What steps the Government is going Minister himself that elections will be to take to improve the situation in held within six months and that there Punjab after extending the President’s will be no demand for a further ex- rule? Many years have elapsed when tension. 45 Constitmhn ASVINA 12, 1912 (SAKA) Constitulhrt 46 (76th Amend,) Bill {761 h Amend ) Bill One more commitment may be is created in Punjab there cannot be made, that the necessary steps l‘i)r free and fair elections. So, our joint holding free and fair elections will be effort will be to create congenial con- taken, or otherwise the situation will ditions in Punjab so th j‘ free and fair he exactly the same and there will elections are held. be no difference. This commitment must be given by the Prime Minister SHRl KAMAL CHAUDHRY himself. (Hoshiarpur): How can free and fair elections be held ...iJntetruptions) THE MINISTER OF HOME AFI-AIRS (SHRl MUFTI MOHAM- MR. SPEAKER : Mr. Kama! Chau- MAD wSAYEED): Sir. it was already dhry, please sit down. stated here in the House that the Government is very keen to restore Before I pul the motion that the normal conditions in Punjab for hold- Bill, (as amended), be passed, to the ing elections. Previously, when we vote of the House, this being a Consti- sought the extention, at that time we tution (Amendment) Bill, voting has Slid it. It is a fact that there is a to be by division. credibility gap. When we say that we will have elections, may be, nobody Let the Lobbies be cleared will believe us. (hueniipHons) MR. SPEAKER: Now, the Lob- I must say whatever I have to say. bies have been cleared. Let me say it. So. there was a lot of discussion. The Prime Minister had The question is: interactions with all the segments ol “That the Bill, as amended, be opinion in Punjab including the Akuli passed.’* Dal. We had lengthy discussions with our supporting parties, the BJP, CPM, ///If' /o k Scihha Divided: CPI and the general consensus exolved was that conditions were not condu- cive for holding free and fair elections in Punjab So. it should be the effort A YES of all the parties including the main Opposition Party, the (ongreNS, that niv/SK^n /Vr. 4 11.55 hr*. we shoukl ioint together in order \o Lieate conditions politically and Arunachalam, Shri M. Bopchc, Dr. Khushal Parasram Asokaraj, Shri A. Brahmbhatt. Shri Prakash Koko Athithan, Shri Dhanuskodi R. Chakravorty, Shri Susanta Baig, Shri Arif Chand Ram. Shri Bais. Shri Ramcsh Chandra Shekhar, Shri Baitha, Shri Mahencira Chandrasekhar, Shrimali M. Bala, Dr. Asim C'handrashekharppa, Shii T.V. Bala Goud, Shri T. Charles, Shri A. Balaraman, Shri L. Chatterjee, Shri Nirmal Kanti Bali, Shrimali Vyjayanlimala Chatterji, Shri Somnath Banatwalla, Shri G.M. Chaudhary, Shri Ishwar Banera, Shri Haniendra Singh Chaudhary, Shri Ram Prasad Bankhcle, Shri Kisanrao Baburao Chaudhary, Shri Rudrascn Bansi Lai, Shri Chaudhry, Shri Kamal Barman, Shri Palas Chauhan. Shri Prabhatsinh Basavaraj, Shri G.S. Chavda, Shri Khemchandbhai Bashccr, Shri T. Somabhai Basu, Shri Anil Chcnnithala, Shri Ramesh Basil, Shri Chitta Chennupati, Shrimali Vidya Beg. Shri Yusuf Chidambaram, Shri P. Chinta Mohan, Dr. Behera, Shri Bhajaman Choudhury, Shri Lokanath Bengali, wSingh. Dr. Benjamin, Shri S. Chowdhary, Shri Dasai Bhagey Gobardhan, Shri Damor, Shri Somjibhai Bhajan Lai, Shri Dandavate, Prof. Madhu Bhakata, Shri Manoranjan Danwe, Shri Pundlik Hari Bhardwaj, Shri Para^ram Das, Shri Anadi Charan Bhargava, Shri Girdhari Lai Das, Shri Bhakta Charan Bhartiya, Shri Santosh Dasgupta, Dr. Biplab Bhatia, Shri Ram Scwak Datta, Shri Amal Bhattacharya, Shrimati Malini Delkar, Shri Mohanbhai Sanjibhai Bhattacharya, Shri Nani Dennis, Shri N. Bhosle, Shri Praiaprao Baburao Dtora, Shri Murli Bhoyc, Shri Reshma Motiram Deshmukh, Shri Ashok Anandrao Bhuria, Shri Dilccp Singh Deshmukh. Shri Chandubhai Bircndcr Singh. Rao Dev, Shri Sontosh Mohan 49 Constitution ASVINA 12, 1912 (SAKA) Constitution 50 {76th Amend.) Bill {76th Amend.) Bill Dcvarajan, Shri B. Inder Jit, Shri Dhakane. Shri Babaiirao Jaffer Sharicf, Shri C.K. Dhankhar, Ch. Jagdecp Jag Pal Singh, Shri Dhawan, Shri Harmohan Jai Parkash, Shri Dhumal, Prof. Prem Kumar Jamuna, Shrimati J. Dikshit, Shri Narsiiighrao Janurdhanan, Shri Kadambur M.R. Dincsh Singh, Shri Jangde, Shri Resham Lai Dome, Dr. Ram Chandra Jaswant Singh, Shri Dorc, Shri Raja Ambanna Nayak Jatav, Shri Than Singh Fernandes, Shri George Jatiya, Shri Satynarayan Fernandes, Shri Oscar Jawali, Dr. Basavaraj Fernandez, Shri Joss Jayamohan, Shri A. Gadgii, Shri V.N. Jeevarathinam, Shri R. Gaikwad, Shri Udaysingrao Jena, Shri Srikanta Gajapathi, Shri Gopi Nath Jha, Shri Bhogendra Gamit, Shri Chhitubhai Devjibhai Jhikram, Shri Mohanlal Gandhi, Shrimati Maiieka Jorawar Ram, Shri Gandhi, Shri Rajiv Joshi, Shri Dau Dayal Giri, Shri Sudhir Ju Deo, Shri Dilip Singh Giriyappa, Shri C.P. Mudala Kabde, Dr. Venkatesh Gomango, Shri Gitidhar Kale, Shri SuLhdeo Naridaji Gounder, Shri A.S. Kalka Das, Shri CJowda, Shri D.M. Piitte Kalvi, Shri Kalyan Singh Gudadinni, Shri B.K. Kamal Nath, Shri Gujral, Shri l.K. Kamble, Shri ArvinJ Tulshiram Gupta, Shri Dharmpal Singh Kamson, Prol. Meijinlung Gupta, Shri Jndrajit Kapse, Prof. Ram Cianesh Gupta. Shri Janak Raj Kasu, Shri Venkata Krishna Reddy Hannan Mollah, Shri Kataria, Shri Gulab Chand Hansda, Shri Matiiat KauL Shrimati Sheila Harish Pal, Shri Kaushik, Shri Purushottam Harsh Vardhan, Shri Kashari Lai, Shri Heera Bhai, Shri Khan, Shri Arif Mohammad Het Ram, Shri Khan, Shri Sukhendu Hota, Shri Bhabani Shankar Khan, Shri Zulfiquar Ali 51 Constitution OCTOBER 4, 15>90 Constitution 52 {76th Amend.) Bill (7 m Amend,) Bill Khandelwal. Shri Pyarelal Mewar» Shri Mahendra Singh Khanoria, Shri DD Mirdha, Shri Nathu Ram Khurana, Shri Madan Lai Mishra, Shri Jancshwar KodikkunniK Shri Suresh Mishra, Shri Raj Mangal Konthala, Shri Rama Krishna Misra, Shri Satyagopal Koadia, Shri Manubhai Mohamed, Shri E.S.M. Pakeer Kumaramangalani, Shri P.R, Mujahid, Shri B.M. Kundu, Shri Samarendra Mukherjcc, Shrimati Geeta Kuppuswamy, Shri C.K. Munda. Shri Govinda Chandra Kurien, Prof. PJ. Munda. Shri Karia Lakshmanan, Prof. Savilhri Munjare, Shri Kankar Lodha, Shri Guman Mai Muraleedharan, Shri K. Lodhi, Shri Ganga Charan Murthy, Shri Kusuma Krishna Mahabir Prasad, Shri Murlhy, Shri M. V. Chandra She- kara Mahadik, Shri Vamanr.io Naik, Shri Ram Mahajan, Shrimati Sumilra Naikar, Shri D.K. Maiiale, Shri Huribhau Shankar Nandi, Shri Yellaiah Mahata, Shri Chitta Narayanan, Shri P.O. Mahalo, Shri Shailendra Nalhu Singh, Shri Malik, Shri Purna Chaudia Nayak, Shti Nakul Malik, Shri Satya Pal Negi, Shri C.M. Mallik, Shri Mangaraj Nehru, Shri Arun Kumar Mallikarjun, Shri Netam, Shri Arvind Mandal, Shri Sanat Kumar Nikam, Shri Govindrao Manjay, Lai, Shri Nilish Kumar, Shri Manlosh, Shri Paul R, Odeyar, Shri Channaiah Manvar, Shri Balvanl Pachcrwal, Shri Gopal Marbaniang, Shri Peter G, PaK Shri Rupchand Masudal Hossain, Si:ri Sycd Palanisamy, Shri K.C. Mathew, Shri Palai K.M, Pandc, Shri Rajmangal Mayekar, Shri Gopalrao Pandey, Prof. Yadu Nath Meena, Dr. Kirodi Lai Pandeya, Dr. Laxminarayan Mecna, Shri Nandlal Pandian, Shri D, Meghwal, Shri Kailash Pani, Shri Ravi Narayan Mehta. Shrimati Jayawanti Navin- chandra Panja, Shri Ajit 53 Constitution ASVINA 12, 1912 iSAKA) Constitution 54 (76th Amend,) Bill {76th Amend,) BUI Panwar, Shri Harpal Singh Prasad, Shri R. S. Paranjpc, Shri Baburao Prasad, Shri V. Srecnivasa Paraste. Shri Dalpat Singh Prem Pradeep, Shri Paswan, Shri Chhedi Purohit, Shri Banwarilal Paswan, Shri Ram Vilas Purushothaman, Shri Vakkom Paswan, Shri Sukdeo Raghavji. Shri Patel. Dr. A.K. Rai. Shri Kalp Nath Patel, Shri Arjunbhai Rai, Shii Lai Baboo Patel, Shri Chandrcsh Rai. Shri, M. Ramanna Patel. Shri Maganbhai Manibhai Rajeshwaran, Dr. V. Patel. Shri Natubhai M. Rajeswati. Shrimati Basava Patel, Shri Piahlad Singh Raju. Shri Bh. Vijayakumar Patel. Shri Ram Pujan Raju, Shri M.M. Pallani Patel, Shri Shantilal Purushottam Raju. Shri S. Vijaya Rama Das Raju. Shrimati Uma Gajapathi Patel. Shri Somabhai Rajveer Singh. Shri Patiiak. Shri Harin Rakosh. Shri R.N. Pdtidai. Shri Rameshwat Ram Awadh. Shri Patil, Shii Balasaheb Vikhe Ram Babu, Shri A.G.S. Pdtil, Shri Basavaraj Ram Dhan. Shri Patil. Shri S.T. Ram Prakash, Ch. Patil. Shii Shankarrao Ram Sagar. Shri (Bara Banki) Patil. Shri Shivraj V. Ram Sagar. Shri (Saidpur) Patil. Shri Dttamrao Ram Singh. Shri Patil. Shri Uttamrao Lakmanrao Ramachandraij. Shri Mullapally Patnaik. Shri Sivaji Ramdass. Dr. R. Penchalliah, Shri P. Ramakrishna, Shii Y. Peruman. Dr. P. Vallal Ramamurthy, Shri K. Phundkar, Shri Bhaoosaheb Pun- Rana, Shri Kashiram Chhabildas dlik Ranga. Prof. N.G. Potijary. Shri Jaiiardhana Rao, Shri J. Chokka Pottukhe. Shri Shantaram Rao. Shri J. Vengala Prabhu, Shri R. Rao, Shri K. Rama Mohan Pradhani, Shri K. Rao. Shri K.S. Pramanik. Shri Radhika Ranjan Rao, Shri R. Gundu Prasad, Shri Hari Kewal Rao, Shri Srinivas 55 Constitution OCTOBER 4, 1990 Constitution 56 {76th Amend.) Bill {76th Amend,) Bill Rao, Shri V. Krishna Sclvarasu. Shri M. Rasheed Masood, Shri Sema, Shri Shikiho Rathwa, Shri Narayanbhai Jam- Shah, Shri Babubhai M e^ji labhai Shah. Sri Jayantilal Virchandbhai Rathod, Shri Uttam Shakeelur Rehman, Dr. Rathor, Dr. Bhagwan Dass Shakya, Dr. Mahadeepak Singh Rawat. Shri Harish Shakya, Shri Ram Singh Rawat. Prof. Rasa Singh Shankaranand, Shri B. Raychaudhuri. Shri Sudarsan Shanmugam. Shri P. Reddy, Shri A. Vcnicata Sharma, Shri Chiranji Lai Reddy. Shri B.N. Sharma. Shri Dharm Pal Reddy. Shri Bojja Venicata Shastri. Shri Anil Reddy. Shri Kotla Vi|aya Bhas- kara Shastri, Shri Kapil Dev Reddy, Shri M.G. Shastri, Shri Yamuna Prasad Reddy, Shri P. Narsa Shekhada. Shri Govindbhai Kan- jibhai Reddy. Shri R. Surendcr Shingada, Shri D.B. Reddy, Shri Rajamohan Shiwankar. Prof. Mahadeo Routray, Shri Nilamani Shrivastava, Dr. Shailcndranath Roy, Shri Haradhan Sidnal, Shri S.B. Roypradhan. Shri Amar SiJvera, Dr. C. Sadul. Shri Dharmanna Mondayya Singaravadivel, Shri, S. Sahay, Shri Subodh Kant Singh. Shri Ajay Sai. Shri Nand Kumar Singh. Shri Dhanraj Saini. Shri Gurdial Singh Singh, Shri Har Govind Sait. Shri Ibrahim Sulaiman Singh, Shri Hari Kishore Sanyal, Shri Manik Singh, .Shri Jagannath Saran, Shri Dauiat Ram Singh. Shri K. Manvendra Saroj. Shri Sarju Prasad Singh. Shri Lalit Vijay Sarwur Hussain, Shri Singh. Shri Lokendra Sathc, Shri Vasant Singh. Shri Mandhata Save, Shri Moreshwar Singh, Prof. N. Tombi Sayeed. Shri Mufti Mohammad Singh. Shri Pratap Sayeed, Shri P.M. Singh. Shri Radha Mohan Scindia, Shri Madhavrao Singh. Shri Ram Naresh Scindia, Shrimati Vijayarajc Singh. Shri Ram Prasad 57 Constitution ASVINA 12, 1912 {SAKA) Constitution 58 {76th Amend) Bill (76th Amend) Bill Singh, Shri Ramashray Prnsad* Tyagi, Shri K.C. Singh, Shri Ramdas Lima Bharati. Kumari Singh, Shri Sukhcndra Umbrcy, Shri Lacta Singh, Shri Tej Narayan Unnikrishnan, Shri K.P. Singh, Shri Uday Pratap Vaghela, Shri Shankersinh Singh, Shri Viswanath Pralap Varma, Shri Dharmesh Prasad Singh Deo. Shri A.N. Varma, Shri Ratilal Kalidas Sinha, Shiimati IJsha Varma* Shri S.C. Sodhi, Shri Mankuram Vekaria, Shri S.N. Solanki, Shri Surajbhanu Venkatesan, Shri P.R.S. Sonkar, Shri Kalpnalh Verma. Shri R.L.P. Soren, Shri Shibu Verma, Shri Shco Sharan Soz. Prof. Saif-ud-din Verma, Shri Upendra Nalh Srikanlaiah, Shri H.C. Vorma, Shrimati Usha Sukhbuns Kaur, Shrimati Vijayaraghavan, Shri A. Sultanpuri, Shri K.D. Vis>vanatham, Dr. Suman, Shri Ramji Lai Yadav, Shri Baleshwar Sumbrui. Shri Bagun Yadav, Shri Chhotey Singh Sundararaj, Shri N. Yadav. Shri Chun Chun Prasad Sur. Shri Monoranjan Yadav, Shri Devendra Prasad Suryawanshi, Shri Narsingrao Yadav, Shri Hukumdeo Narayan Tandcl, Shri D J. Yadav, Shri Janardan Tarif Singh, Shri Yadav, Shri Kailash Nath Singh Tarvafa, Shri Amratlal Vallabha- Yadav, Shri Mitra Sen das Yadav, Shri Ram Sharan Taslimudin, Shri Yadav, Shri Ramendra Kumar Thakore, Shri Gabbhaji Mangaji Ravi Thambi Durai, Dr. Yadav, Dr, S.P. Thapa, Shri Nandu Yadav, Shri Satyapal Singh Thomas, Prof. K.V. Yadav, Shri Sharad Thomas, Shri P.C. Yadav, Shri Surya Narayan Thorat, Shri S.B. Yadava, Shri Ramjilal Thungon, Shri RK. Yadvendra Datt, Shri Tiraky, Shri Piyus Yazdani Dr. Golam Tiwari, Shri Brij Bhushan Yuvraj, Shri Tiwari, Shri Janardan Zainal Abcdin, Shri ♦Voted from wrong seat. 59 Constitution OCTOBER 4, 1990 Constitution 60 (76th Amend.) Bill (76th Amend.) Bill NOES start the discussion on the Adjourn- ment Motion. You kindly indicate how many hours you are allowmg Atinder Pal Singh. S. and al what time voting will take Prasad, Shri R.S. place. Rajdev Singh. Shri MR. SPEAKER: We will start the discussion at 2 o’ clock. 1 think, two- Roy, Shri A.K. and-a-half hours will do. SHRI SOMNATH CHATTER- MR. SPEAKER: Subject to cor- JEE (Bolpur): Three hours. rection*. the result of the division is MR. SPEAKER: All right, voting Ayes : 432*» will take place at 5 p.m. sharp. Is il agreed? Noes : 004 PROF. P. J. KURIEN (Mavclikara): The motion is carried by a majo- There are many Members who would rity of the total membership of the like to participate in this. So 5 p.m. House and by a majority of not less is not agreeable to us. Let it be than two-thirds of the members pre- 6 p.m. {Interruption). sent and voting. MR. SPEAKER: We will begin discussing the Adjournment Motion The Bill, as amended, is passed at 2 p.m. sharp. This will continue by the requisite majority, in accor- till 6 p.m. and voting will take place dance with the provisions of Article ju.st past 6 p.m. 368 of the Constitution. PROF. SAIF-UD-DIN SOZ; 1 The motion adopted. wanted the Prime Minister to be here to answer my points. 1 have moved an adjournment motion...... ifnlerrup- lion). 12.00 hrs. \Tnm.sl ♦The following Members also recorded their votes:- AVES: Sarvashri Bega Ram, Balgopal Mishra. SaifuOcljn Choudhury, Shrimai, Vasun- dharaRajc. Shrimati Subhashini Ali> Sarvashri Shopat Singh Makkasar, Saniosh Kumar Gangwar, Sudhir Ray Ajoy Mukhopadhyay, Tarit Baraii Topdar, Ram Sajiwan, Dr. K. Kalf- muthu, Surya Narayan Singh, Ram Krishan Yadav, Sudani Dattatrya Deshmukh, Dr. Debi- Prasad Pal, Shri G. Devaraya Najk» kurnari Kamalaji Karcc*^'.ula, Sarvasbn Sanford Marak, Abdul Samad» Roshma Motiram Bhoye. NOES; Sarvashri Kirpal Singh, Harbhajan Lakha, Baba Sucha Singh, Shrimati Bimal Kaur Khalsa. *'•433, As corrected. 6i KiOngoft^ent ASVlNA12,m2 (SAKA) houm at Hmdwi»a «2 persons A buntfyig ej in J .A K ,m UlO-90 VRGF. SAIF-UD-DIN SOZ: It is which were set on fire. It is nm* neither the Central Hall nor their party tioned yesterday evming in flie In- oiSce. It is indiscipline... (Imermp- tions) dian Express that seven bodies were found in the debris and official figure of total dead in twenty two whereas MR. SPEAKER: You do not as- the actual killings must be more than sume the role of the Speaker. Will thhty. The Central Government is you please go to your seat? You are watching this situation of death and not flie Speaker; I am the Speaker... destruction and not asking the State {Interruption) Government to distinguish between the militants and the innocent people. I ask this Government to explain its PROF. SAIF-UD-DIN SOZ: See policy on Kashmir. What are they what the Ministers are doing. Let them going to do there? In my opinion resume their seats. Kashmir is burn- it is a situation worse than war and ing. Innocent people are being kill- sometimes I think that the Central ed...... (Interruption) Government has waged a proxy war against innocent people of Kashmir. Let the hon. Home Minister answer \Translation] my points. The Govemw there has done worse to the people of Kash- MR. SPEAKER: What you said mir because his advisers are the same is right. people who worked with the former Governor, Mr. Jagmohan. Now, PROF. SAIFJUD-DIN SOZ: No killing of innocent people has be- attention is paid if we speak in nor- come a routine. This Governor has mal tone. failed to distinguish betwe^ the mi- litants and the innocent people. It is because of the fact that there are MR. SPEAKER; Why are you so two black laws—^Disturbed ' Area angry, you may speak. Act and the Armed Forces (Jammu and Kashmir) Special Powers A ct 12.0S hn. These two black laws give great authority to the forces to open fire RE. KILLING OF INNOCENT to destroy houses and do anything. PERSONS AND BURNING OF The Governor’s administration has HOUSES AT HANDWARA IN taken up a confrontationist attitude JAMMU AND KASHMIR ON 1ST with the employees who have gone on OCT. 1990 a general strike,' Now the commcm man is in difficulty. Ration shops PROF. SAIF-UD-DIN SOZ (Ba- are closed, medical services are totally ramulla): Sir, I had moved an Ad- disrupted, electricity and water supp- journment Motion today as also a Mo- ly is also disrupted. Banks are tion under rule 184 as I wanted this closed and the commcm people are House to adopt a Resolution asking facing great hardship. Is tUs the the Central Government to stop way to run the State? I want answers death and destruction in Kashmir to my questions from the hon. Heme and killings of innocent persons and Mimster, otherwise, I will walk out. burning of houses there. On 1st O ^ He has to answer my questions, (/n- tober, 1990 at Handwara. BSF open- terruptiom) ed indiscriminate firing on innocent people in retaliation for the MlHng cst [TnmsUttion] a BSF Jawan. T h ^ set on fire houses and shops and about 295 MR. SPEAKER; People have beoi shops. 38 houses and 25 grain stores kiUed, you have made your point were burnt to ashes and many inno- Mr. Zoz. please sit down now. cent people got trapped into shops I have allowed you to speak. Now, S-llSS/ND/91 ^ JSWbig e f bmoeent OCTOBER 4,1990 h o u m a t Jfmdwara 64 persons A bunting of in J. A IL OH 1-10-90 thh is extreme wrong. You have (Fnterrui^ons) Mr. Soz, you can said what you had to say. please listen to me. be seated now. PROF. SAIF-UD-DIN SOZ; (Interruptions) There should be a judicial inquiry (Interruptions). [English] SHRI MUFTI MOHAMMAD MR. SPEAKER: Hon. Home Mi- SAYEED: Mr. Soz. you ate not sure nister is responding. about the facts as to who committed this crime. You should know that. THE MINISTER OF HOME AF- You are saying that security forces FAIRS (SHRI MUFTI MOHAM- have done. Who has told you that? MAD SAYEED): Sir. day before I have been here, Mr. Soz, I got the yesterday many shops and houses in information...... (Interruptions). Handwara caught fire. PROF. SAIF-UD-DIN SOZ: 295 PROF. SAIF-UD-DIN SOZ: They to be precise. have killed innoncent people. Mr. SHRT MUFTI MOHAMMAD Ghulam Rasool Mullick, who is a SAYEED; Hon. Member, Shri Soz M.L.C. has been killed. Was he a knows very well that Kupwara dis- terrorist? You are misleading the trict as a whole is very much affect- House. ed. There is a lot of terrorist ac- tivity, lot of people are infiltrating through Kupwara and there have SHRI IBRAHIM SULAIMAN SAIT (Manjeri): There should be been many encounters and since (Interruptions). last four days 158 A.K. 47 Rifles a judicial inquiry. were seized by the security forces SHRT MUFTI MOHAMMAD and 150 people were apprehended on S A '^ E D : Hon. Member Mr. Sulai- flie border. Here are frequent en- man Sait demands inquiry. (Interrup counters and ambushes made by ter- tions). I say, inqui^ has already rorists on our security forces. In been ordered. Handwara there was an ambu.sh on police station. With our BSF and SHRI G. M. BANATWALLA (Pon- Kashmir Police there was complete nani): That is a farce. We want a encounter for hours. The BSF was judicial inquiry. not outside on the road. And they just asked the shookeepers to vacate SHRI MUFn MOHAMMAD their shops so that they could use SAYEED: And I assure the hon. their positions. Then, I am told— Members of the House that who- it is a matter to be inquired into— ever has committed this serious crime they threw grenades in their shops will be punished positively, I assure and the shops caught fire. I agree that. There is no question of let up. that they have been forced, there are excesses committed by our security MR. SPEAKER: I am informed forces and that should be inquired that Shri Mohammad Shafi is stag- into. And there have been so many ing dhama outside the building at inquiries and action has been Gate No. I. I would request our taken against many officers who hon. Member Shri Mohammad Shafi were responsible for committing to refrain from domg so and resume many excesses. But about the his seat in the House. present one. I have made discreet in- quiries as to what is the case. There Now. Mr. Guman Mai Lodha. is a lot of confusion and Governor Saxena has announced a team of PROF. SAIF-UD-DIN SOZ: I [Sh. Gumm Mai Lodha] dt ‘reimbursement*. Are we to lose the precious life of the Chi^ Justice much disturbed and pertuibed that of India on the point viiether reim- he asked that somebody should be bursement would be done or not? got from the Supreme Court; or he Is the High Commissioner not compe- may be flown to his motherland tent enough to decide this? For a INDIA but that also was not arrang- few coins of money we have lost our ed. Oiief Justice the head of judiciary of 60 crores of people, 'fhe entire I want to tell this House, the hon. world is laughing at us. People in Speaker and the hon. Ministers con- London sunply ask whether this cerned that the High Commissioner is the manner the Chid Justice of L<»don behaved in a criminal of a country, a Government and negligent manner. It is ndt a case of a democracy which is the largest in of normal death. 1 would not call the world is treated and forced to tt murder by negligeince, but I would ‘DIE’ Sir. not only this. When certainly say that a responsible per- the dead body was brought here, I son holding the ofBce of the High was just shocked to find that even Commissioner should, even if some- to add insult to injury the State body else had gone, not have acted funeral was not given. According in the manner he did. Our Chief to the convention, the Chief Justice Justice is the fourth in the rank of India when he dies in harness is after the President, the Vice Presi- entitled to it. But here also, in dent and the Prime Minister. He spite of the efforts of the senior-most was not given the care that would Judge, trymg hard for it, no arrange- be Kiven to an ordinary Class-1 IAS ment was made. Even the arrange- Officer or a Secretary or an Under ment for receiving the dead body and Secretary or an MP or MLA. For for taking it to the funeral ground five days the Chief Justice struggled etc., was so scanty and shabby diat without any aid between life and each one in the judiciary was sore death. about it. The Bar Council of India— the Supreme Court Bar Associaticm— has passed a resolution. But what Mrs. Mukherjee toW me that has been done is this. The head has specialist doctors were not available. been left and the tail ^ been caught— Ultimately on the fourth day it was a Doctor has been removed from the found as a discovery by Colombus panel of Doctors in London in order or Vascodagama that he had heart to show that something has been Trouble and no treatment was given done. But, what the Doctor has for four days with tiie result that said is this. He said tiiis publicly on the fifth day he collapsed and col- that if I would have been asked to l a ^ d in a condition which would treat Mr. Mukharji, I would not bring shame to all of us; not only have allowed to k e ^ him in that hos- today but the posterity would curse pital. because it is a charity hos|rital. US. a poor aged man’s hospital, where no treatment is given propwrly. I I would therefore request that suit- would therefore request that a Parlia- able action should be taken for what mentary Ccmunittee diould be form- the High Commissi(»«r has done. ed. It is not a matter of just Mr. He tried to defend first. He first Mukharji’s death, but it is a matter said that there was no sanctioii and of honour SHRl P. CHIDAMBARAM (Siva- seriousness on the part of the ganga): You may move a motim. hospital authorities or—much more senous—00 the part of the Huh SHRI GUMAN MAL LODHA: Commission Officials indudtns the Sir, 1 would say that a Parliamentary High Conmissioner in London. The Committee may be formed and spe- ^ e f Justice of India was Ijiag on cialists may also be included in it to the streU^er for houis. Then, he assist the Members. Then, the was put into a general ward and then whole matter may be inquired into. mto a cabin. No attempt was even Till then, the High Commissioner in seen to have been made to call a London should be called back im- specialist for the purpose of his treat- mediately. Thank you very much. ^ t . Even the wife ci the ailing SHRI CHANDRA SHEKHAR Chirf Justice was not informed as to (Ballia): Mr. Speaker, Sir, this is what steps are being takai. She was the most tragic and shameful story. only allowed to go inside during the Visiting Hours. That is Z30 pm .. What the hon. Member Shri Lodha has said—a part of it—is COTrect. she said. Till thoi, she was franti- Without any discussion, the High cally telephoning herself, the hosmtal Commissioner frcwn there, should be authorities to find out what was the called back, because whatever may be condition [Sh. Sonmath Chatterjee] to doubt what Mrs. Mukhaiji has The othei thing most reprehen- said. I know h a . She is a very sible is that the wife of the Chief humble person. She is a God-fear- Justice will be reminded about the ing person. There is no reason at difSculties of providing treatment or all to subject her on this matter to providing even transport on the ground any further inquiry. What Mrs. that these reimbwsements have to be Mukharji has told Mr. K. K. Venu- earliec arranged for. This is very gopal and Mr. K. K. Venugopal has serious. She was being reminded recorded in his own handwriting, cer- every time: “You are on a private tainly this report must be acc^ted as visit As the Chief Justice of India the truth and there is no further need was on a private visit, therefore, un- for any inquiry into this mattw. If less we get the clearance from Delhi even a fraction of Mr. Venugopal's and some arrangement is made for re- report is correct. I share Mr. Chandra imbursement. nothing can be done.” Shekhar’s statement what Mr. Lodha ThiS type of attitude we cannot con- has said, you can say he belongs to done and we must take a very serious a political party. What Mr. Som- view of this matter. The persons nath Chatterjee has said, he belongs responsible for this should be puni- to a iK>litical party but Mr. Venu- shed. Whatever step has to be taken gopal. who is President of the Sup- for that, it has to be taken by the reme Court Bar Associaticm. personal- Government. They must take us ly talked to Mrs. Mukharji and has into confidence about what they are recorded in his own handwriting a re- thinking on that. We want that all port. If a fraction of that leport is possible steps should be taken at least correct, Mr. Kuldip Nayyar should to show now respect to the memory be sacked immediately. He should of the late Chief Justice. There are be recalled immediately. I am hold- various' difficulties faced by the fami- ing that report only until tomorrow ly. I am sure. the Government in the hope that Government will act would take appropriate steps to see tonight or tomorrow and tell us to- that no further diflBculty the famfly morrow what action they have taken. gets into in view of the sudden tragic Kindly see the statement issued by happening that has taken place. Mr. KuJdip Nayyar. MR. SPEAKER: It is a serious MR. SPEAKER: Has he issued matter. a statement? SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: Sir. this is far too serious a matter. And SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: He I wish to add just one or two points sent a report. It has appeared in of information to supplement what all the lepers verbatim. External my learned friends, Mr. Somnath Affairs Minister is here. {Imerrup- Oiatterjee and Mr. Guman Mai tions) This is what he has said: Lodha. have mentioned. Mr. K. K. “The controversy raised over Venugopal, President of the Supreme medical attoitian to the late Court Bar Association called upon Chief Justice Mukharji is unfor- Mrs. Mukhaiji and has submitted an tunate because all possible facul- eight page report. I have the re- ties were available to him.” port. But I do not wish to place it today on the Table of the House in The next sentence is and I object to it the hope that—let me underline ‘that’.— strongly: the Govemmeot will act ^ to- morrow in recalling Mr. Kuldip Nay- “He reached from the United yar. who is there as our High Com- States on a pm ate visit on missi Wbat does he mean by saying ‘pri- all my colleagues here have said. I vate visit’? Is the CUef Justice of wish to stress that action has to be India a private person? What is a taken imperatively and immediately IHivate visit? If Mr. Gujral or the against the High Commissioner. Ctf Prime Minister go there, will the visit course, that is not going to lestone becomes a private visit just bccause Mr. Mukharji to us. There are they have not been invited by the different aspects of this matter. I Government of England or the would say that criminal negligence Government of United Kingdom! has led to this tragedy. I have met The Chief Justice is a Chief Justice one or two people, apart from Mrs. 24 hours a day. He is Chief Justice Mukharji, who were in London at 365 days in a year. There can be that time and now here in Delhi. no such thing as a private visit and They say that when some other a public visit. If a public visit or Indian friends were talking to Mr. an official visit had been there, they Kul^p Nayyar, after the death of wouW have provided medical atten- Mr. Mukharji, about this matter and tion. For this sin^e sentence that were rather worked up about it. he characterises that the visit of the said.—^I cannot vouch for this, it is a Chief Justice is a private visit, the report diat I received—^“I cannot be High Commissioner must be recalled expected to do anything better for immediately. I do not wish to add any old Imffer who comes and falls anything more. Let me reserve my ill here.” I do not know whether right and I appeal to you to allow me these are the words which he actually to place that report on the Table of used. But I know that during those the House tomorrow, if the Govern- four or five days when Mr. Mukhani ment does not come forward with a was lying in the Royal Free HospitsJ, positive statement that the High Com- nobody from the High Commission missioner will be recalled immedia- visited him. , Royal Free Hospital is tely. Secondly, a JcMnt Pariiamen- not a charitable hospital. That is a tary Committee must be appointed to wrong idea. It is a hospital under probe into who was responsible and the National Health Service Scheme who was not responsible and the of Britain and naturally it is a free Government must do everything hospital because only insured people possible to show sympathy and sup- are supposed to be treated there. port to the family of the Late Chief But the lioint is, firstly, no specialist Justice. When Justice Fazl Ali was called there to examine him. passed away—I remember—-our Gov- Was it not the job of the High Com- ernment departed from the rules and mission in India to find out about paid a special compensation to his this*> No responsible officer or offi- family. Yesterday the Congress cial of the Higih Commission went President and the Leader of the Oppo- there to see him. The Hijrh Com- sition had written to the Prime Minis- missioner went once on the first day ter saying that at least the same faci- and after that, nobody from the Hieh lities must be given to Mr. Mukharji’s Commission went even to visit him family. We want the Government and find out as to how he was and to announce now that the Hieh Com- what was hapnen'ne. A suggestion missloner will be recalled immedia- was made on the third day. I think, tely, an inquiry will be there and that that he could be shifted to a private at least the same facilities that were hospital. But nothing was done. gmnfed to Justice Fa?:! Ali’s family Tt mav be because an excuse was sort- will be leranted to Mr. Miikhatji’s ed out as to what is (roini; to be done family. These are our demands. about the reimbursement. If he was in a private hospital, then he was SHRI im>RAJTT GUPTA fMidna. to pay. It mav be that he had to pore): While supporting fully what pay quite a lot. So. this is the 75 Attenthn ^ core given OCTOBER 4,1990 of India S M 76 hy Indian High Sabyasachi Aftddwrjee Commission in London String kis illness to Late Chirf Justice [Sh. Indrajit Gupta] SHRI DINESH SINGH (Prata^ garh): He could have sanctioned this other part of the question. The himself. Foreign Minister is here now. If &e present rules and regulations that SHRI INDRAJTT GUPTA: He have been framed by them are such could have done anything. Eveiy- Aat, when VIPs of this status fall body knows that the amount would ill seriously and are hovering between be reimbursed. The High Commis- life and death and it is a question of sioner in U.K. is not a joke, the giving diem proper medical attention High Commissic«er in U.K. is a per- and care and those rules and regula* son of considerable status and power tions prevmt it on the ground that and he has got within his discretion tiiey do not know whether reimburse- to say that such a treatment must be ment will be sanctioned or not, then taken and that he takes the respon- it is something fantastic. 1 think sibility of seeing that it will be re- vAen a CaWnet Minister of our imbursed. I cannot understand the Government or the Prime Minister meaning of this at all. will fall ill on a private visit—God forbid—^when tfiey are abroad in some other country, I doubt whether they We are all very much agitated and would be treated, by our Embassy or the Government should act immedia- Hig^ Commission, in the way in tely. which Mr. Mukharji has been treated. SHRI VASANTSATHE fWaidha); Sir, diis is something shocking- There- Mr. Speaker, Sir. I am very sorry that fore, I do not know whether a Parlia- such a thing should have at all hap- mentary Commission is goin^ to help pened. The other day when I went very much to inquire into this matter to their residwice to pay my condo- or not. We are not competent to lences, my good friend. Shri Dinesh say anything on the medical side, of Goswami was also there, and the way course, except that there was no spe- Mrs. Mukharji was describing the cialist assigned to go and examine callous manner in which the entire hhn OTOperly and suggest as to what negligence had taken place, one felt should oe the course of the treatment so moved that one could not resist or whether he should be shifted to one’s anguish. I am a heart patient another institution. But the attitude myself and I Have Rone through this 0$ the Hieh Commissioner is totally whole process. If this ailment or rq>rehens'ble, and if he has really any other related ailment is not atten- made such a remark, which was re- ported to me by one Indian couple, ded to immediatelv and properly, it husband and wife, who had iust come is all a question of touch and go. from London sa^g that ‘I cannot Here was our Chief Justice of India be eTpccted to do anything better for and on technical grounds, on a an old buffer, who comes and falls ill ground to say. which she has official- here’, it is shocking. I think the ly now stated in a statement that it Government must act immediately was because he was on a private visit, and take this matter seriouslv. The therefore, we could not do anything whole House is reflecting the senti- more, is really shocking. This ments of millions cit people outside, should not have been stated even in I can tell vou. They m»st net in this the case of an ordinary citizen of matter immediately and this errine India. What are our Embassies and Hieh CommiRsioner must be pulled Hifiih Commissions for if they are not uo and withdrawn. If in vow rules our home away from home, if tW and reoulations there are all these cannot look after our people who anomalies and contradictions, fliey m t Ts this the humnnltarian attitude must be immediately overhauled. that has to be adopted? A High 77 Attenthn & care given ASVINA 12, 1912 (SAKA) ofhuiw Shi 78 hy Indian High Sabyasachi Commission in London Mukherjee during to Late Chief Justice his illness Commissioner or an Ambassador is cial visit. Therefore, I am not taking like a father there to our people who any cognizance of what Mrs. Mukher- go there. His officials take a cue je© is saying.'’ This was the wording from him. If the seniormost man’s of the high and mighty High Com- attitude is so callous as has been re- missioner. I would like to say that ported even if a fraction of it is any FTigTi Commissioner has enough true I am sure, the hon. Foreign power to take a decision. When I Minister would take this matter very was under treatment in Houston, the seriously, would himself feel so hurt Ambassador helped me on his own by such a behaviour of any such offi- discretion. Did he get permission cial and would not spare him. I do from the Foreign Minister? He sent not understand and the House would an official from the Embassy to look not understand by any stretch of ima- after me in Houston. That was the gination how such a thing can hap- courtesy shown by him. These arc pen. the normal powers of any Ambassador or any High Commissioner. What Sir, you are the Speaker. You, will the Parliamentary Committee do? any one of us or any Minister, if I don’t know, but if there are any they go out for some Conference and rules they need to be amended. It arc on their way. Here was a case, is high time that they are amended he was on an official visit attending now. This was the most discourteous a Conference in the States. Natural- and callous act. I don't want to use ly, he has to come back. The most stronger language. He was already proper way to come back is via Lon- a heart patient. She told him that don. Can you say that in 1 ondon he is a heart patient and he already he was not on an official visit? 1 had a heart attack. Please look after cannot understand the fallacy, the him proptTly. In his not doing this, absurdity of this. As was rightly we have lost a man. Sir, this ailment pointed out by our friend, oi:r Cliief is such that if timely and proper treat- Justice of India. President, Vice- ment is given, a man’s live can be President or any of our Ministers, saved easily. We have lost a very wlierevcr any one of them goes, he good person. V\'e have lost a Chief is an official of the Government. Justice which is a ver> valuable life- Therefore, can you say whether un- - for total negligence and callous atti- der the Rules he was technically cor- tude of a highest official who is our rect or not? Fven if you presume representative there. I don't think that there was some technical reason by any stretch of imagination it can because the Foreign Minister or the be said that such a man deserves to be Finance Minister may say that on kept there even for a moment. In- technical ground he could not have quiries may be there. They may reimbursed it. give some explanation but I don’t care about it. Sir, you know the THE FINANCE MTNISTER view of the House. You please re- /PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE): call him. You please announce here 1 am the last man to say so. What is and now that we accept the views needed is not the rule but the courtesy. expressed by this House. The House SHRT G. M. LODHA (Pali): Mrs. is the master. House is supreme. We Mukherjee had a sanction. are unanimous on this. Please call him immediately. Don't think cf the SHRI VASANT SATOE: That rules you are going to follow. I is true. She pointed out to him that entirely support the view that we he had a sanction but even then he must give all the facilities and all the was not willing to acccpt it. He said, respcct that needs to be given to his “I do not have any information from family. my Government that he is on an oflS- 6^1 LSS/Nt)/9l 79 Attention d care given OCTOBER 4,1990 of India Shri StAyasaOti 80 by Indian High Mukherjee during his Commission in London illness to Late Chief Justi'-e SHRIMATI VUAYARAJE SQN- Mukherjee. Wfien Shri Sabyasachi DIA (Guna): Sir. I would like to Mukherjee got down in London Air- express mine as well as my party’s pon, his legs were shivering and the view and as a matter of fact the whole doctors attended on him- From House is anguished and shocked over there, why was he taken to the house this sad incident I feel that this of his friend? Why was he not taken shows flie total callousness, not only to the hospital? Why was he taken the callousness but scant respect we to the National Health Hospital? I have for the judiciary. I hang my want to know wliether the British head in shame if a person who is Government was made aware of his holding the highest position in the illness or not. He was kept in fhe judiciary is treated in this way. What corridor. I would thank even those will the people of other countries doctors of the National Health Hos- think about us? I don’t want to ela- pital. They made available to him borate further. I just want to express what was possible at that time, to mine and my party’s anguish and cure him. They provided him with shock. I agree with the views ex- a cabin. But again, there was a talk pressed here and I hope the Minister that Shri Sabyasachi Mukherjee will will act quickly and will try to make be taken back again to his friend’s amends. I hope he will at least house. Why? I just refuse to be- apologise to the poor lady Mrs. lieve that Shri Kuldip Nayyar was such Mukherjee. She must have sufferred a try and cut fellow. It is because, a hell to sec her husband die help- he had been involved in the protection lessly like that. Is he fit to he an of human rights here. He came to Ambassador who does not even bother sec the Chief Justice only once. to look after a person like the Chief Why? He sent his Deputy, Mr. Justice of India. So. T am simply Salman Haider. Why? All these gos- shocked at this incident. As T got s'ps which had been mentioned by an opportunity now to express my Shri Tndrajit Gupta should be made feelings of anguish T would also like known to us. It is very necessary. to request the hon. Minister that as It is a terrible thing that a noble soul, early as possible, he .should recall the who was so close to us had passed ambassador. That is the least he away. We all join in sa;png that could do at this present juncture. there should be an enquiry into this. SHRI SAMARENDRA KUNDU Therefore, I request the hon. Minis- (Balasore): Mr. S^tiker. Sir. Shri ter to give us a brief account of this Sabyasachi Mukherjee was a noble happening, whether today or tomorrow soul. He is not with us today. I and then a proper enquiry should be won’t say that he was only a Chief made so that everything is revealed. Justice but he was also a very emi- nent statesman of our country. He DR. THAMBI DURAI (Karur); had very forward views on many Mr. Speaker, Sir, I join my collea- matters. Perhaps. Mr. Speaker, you gues for taking necessary action on might not be knowing him—he was a the callous behaviour and the treat- member of the Indian Socialist Groun ment meted out to our Late Chief in London~but at the same time all Justice Shri Sabyasachi Mukherjee in of us know Shri Kuldip Nayyar. per- London. Because of this careless- sonally and very intimately. I just ness, we lost a great man of this could not believe it. Concern has country. It is immaterial whether been expressed repeatedly by the hon. it was his private visit or the official Members. I just want to bring to one. Since, be was holding the vour notice one or two matters which office of the C3)!ef Justice, naturally, have come to my notice through Mrs. the High Commissioner should have 81 Attention d care given ASVINA 12,1912 (SAKA) qf India Shri 82 by Indian High Sabyasaehi Mukkerjee Commission k London during his Ulness to Late Chief Justice given 'more importance to him. I ground, viz. that he was not on offi- would rather say that our High Com- cial duty there? missioner should give the same kind of treatment even to the ordinary citizen of our country. 1 would like to repeat this again, to the Minister: I visited four coun- Therefore. I would request you tries in the month of June; and I once again~our External Affairs approached him, and he gave infor- Minister is a good man, he is an ex- mation to those embassies: at Bang- perienced man, he would have comc kok, Hong Kong. Malaysia and Sin- across so many complaints from other gapore. At all the placcs, 1 have High Commissions’ functioning—^be- seen that his Ambassadors looked cause we also use to receive many after us. I was not on an official complaints when our people go out- visit. But his message went from side that in ccrtain places they are here, that I was an ex-Mimsier and not properly attended to- to take an M.P. If we are treated like this, necessary action in this regard. 1( is how is it possible for a man like Kul- high time that we should change our dip Nayyar to neglect another? It is laws if at all there is any impediment. beyond doubt: either knowingly or unknowingly, he has made some seri- We must take nccessary action ous mistake which has co.st a precious against our High Commissioner in life. Hence I join the hon. Mem- England and I hope the hon. Minister bers of this House in saying that in will look into the matter. order to give a clear message to the other Ambassadors, viz. that they Thank you. should not commit such mistakes, you must recall Kuldip Nayyar. You can give him any other assignment in your SHRf SONTOSH MOHAN DEV: party here: he is your well-wisher. I fully share the feelings of the House, But don't keep a man who has crea- but I would like to put a que.stion ted this situation. A message has to to the Minister of External Affairs. go to other embassies also...... {IrKer- In 1980, I was in Moscow in a dele- ruptions) gation; and we had lost a Member there. Mr. Bairab Mohanty. I rang up the present External M airs Minis- I do not know whether the Fin- ter from the Hotel Sovietskya. With- ance Minister is so tough about giv- in half an hour, he was in the hotel. ing finances to the embassies. I do not think so. He would have never SHRI EDUARDO FALEIRO (Mor- said: ‘No. I will not pay.’ When Mr. mugao); He was a very good Ambas- Madhu Dandavate is there, when he sador, very courteous. is returning the Customs money like anything, why should he not pay for SHRI SONTOSH MOHAN DEV: this particular expenditure? t do not The doctors came: he died, but even know, but the whole countiy is agog after his deafli, I had seen that the with this question. We raised this present External Affairs Minister had matter; myself and Mr. Bhakata, and taken all steps to see that the also the whole House has joined us. dead body was ilown here, and I would request the hon. Minister of arrangements were made. Of course, External Affairs not to protect his old the Government here flien was our friend, and stand up and say some- Government. When he is the Exter- thing which may be counter-produc- nal Affairs Minister, and there is a tive. He has enough problems for his good fri«id of his as the High Com- Government. He should not ask for missioner in U.K., why did this seri- another problem. This is my only ous lapse take {dace—on a very petty request. 83 Attention d care given OCTOBER A, \990 of India Shri Sabyasachi 84 by Indian High Mukherjee during his Conmusxion in London iUnesi, to Late Chie f Justice SHRI EDUARDO FALEIRO: taken into consideration. 1 strongly Please see that your Ambassadors be- advocate that the present High Com- have with the same courtesy that you missioner should be immediately call- displayed when you a ere the Am- ed back to this country as he has lost bassador in Moscow. all credibility to remain our Ambas- vsador in that country. SHRI MANORANJAN BHA- KATA (Andaman & Nicobar Is- DR. DEBl PROSAD PAL (Cal- lands): 1 join all the hon. Members cutta North West): I share the senti- who have spoken on this subjcct. No ments cxprc.ssed by this House on the words can appropriately condemn untimely death of the Chief Justice this criminal neglect which has been ol India. I had my personal asso- comjnitted by the Indian High Com* ciation vsith him for more than 25 missioner in London, My point is years both in the Bench of the Cal- that whatever may be ihe crhninui cutta High Court and at the Bar. I negligence which has been i,’ommitted went to the house of the Chier Jus- by the Indian High Commissioner* tice of India and met his wife Mrs. what do we lind in our country it- Mukherji. The incidents which 1 had self? What did the Government do? heard from her are really distressing. Government is not coming up Vvith a I wonder how tlie High Commissio- moto statement. The Chief Jus- ner in U.K. could behave himself so tice of this great country died o [Translation] MR. SPEAKER: Since this per- tains to the portfolio of Mr. Gujrai. T shall look into the records if there have allowed him to raise it...... is anything that hurts public senti- 1 ment. Please sit down now. (Inlerruptiom) {Interruptioiu) SHRI P. C. THOMAS: Some Indian nationals had come from MR. SPEAKER: Mayawatiji. you may speak on the Adjournment Mo- Kuwait in cars. They came to our tion. You may raise this point at border after passing through Turkey. Iran, Iraq and Pakistan. They came that time. Now please sit down. to a place 30 kms from Amritsar, KUM'ART MAYAWATI: One called Wagah border. When they minute. Sir. I have risen bei'ausc reached there, our officers humiliat- whatever be said in the House...... ed them. They were asked to leave {Interruptions) their cars there and walk off. Many of them who refused to do so, were MR. SPEAKER: The death of asked to remain there for two days Shri Sabyasachi Mukherjee was being and three nights. They stayed there discussed. I have permitted you on without food and without any atten- that tion. They said that even Pakistan 91 Attention d care given OCTOBER 4,1990 o f India Shri Sahyasachi 92 by Indian High Afulclierjee during Itis Cammission in London illness to Late Chief Justice [Sh. P. C. Thomas] It was my misfortune to land in London a cx)uple of hours after his gave them all attention, but when they death. Therefore, it was possible for came to India, they found that the me to condole Mrs. Mukherjee, who conccrned officers were even saying: was staying with the High Commis- ‘‘Why have you gone to Kuwait? It sioner. She was in the house of the is none of our business.” They said: High Commissioner.* There I met her. “You just leave the cars here and go. And she was there the whole day. The second group which came, argued Both my wife and I spent a good deal with the officei’s. They vSaid: ‘'We of time with her, and we share her will not go without our cars because agony because this was not an ordi- this is the only thing which we have. nary death. For her it was a great We have lost everything; wo have lost personal loss. For all of us it was a whatever we have earned. This is a loss and also for the country a loss separate situation. You cannot apply which we can ill-afford to bear. She such laws.*’ They said: “You must came back lo India that day because leave your cars and walk off.” They the body wa«; embalmed. High Com- sal on dhama, and blocked the whole missioner’s wife and Deputy High Com- road. At last, six cars which came missioner accompanied her to Delhi in the second group, alone were allow- in order to give her support at the ed to go. I draw the attention of the time when it was needed and it was hon. M inister of External Affairs as given. Many friends t>f mine natu- well as hon. Minister of Finance be- rally are feeling upset and their being cause now this is a situation which upset is justified because if things like has to be viewed separately. Tf some this happens then naturally all of us laws relating to Customs are coming feel upset and worried. During that in their way. T think, this has to be one day’s stay there after the death viewed separately and they must be and last night again on way hack T given necessary concession... looked into details of it. 1 will not iion) take the time of the House to try to go into the details. But, 1 would only like to say that things are not as they SHRI C. K. JAFFER SHARTEF have been ‘stated. 1 will only stop (Bangalore North): I have only a with this. There are the details of it submission. Parliament is an institu- also, but this may not be the occasion tion. Judiciary is another institution. for me to go into the details. I accept The Chief Justice represents the judi- the suggestion that an enquiry be held ciary. When some sentiments are ex- and 1 am willing to assign the enquiry pressed in the House, it is not proper to Mr. Venugopal himself. Therefore, that we should bring in all sorts of let Mr. Venugopal look into whole issues. Let us confine to the issue. thing and come to a conclusion. Only One institution should respect the then I will come back to talk about other institution., ilnterruption) that. ... {Interruptions), SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM (Siva- THE MINISTER OF EXTERNAL ganga): Does the External Affairs AFFAIRS (SHRI 1. K. GUJRAL): T Minister not believe the words of Mrs. share the agony not only of this House Mukherjee? but of Mrs. Mukherjee specially for this very sad demise. Mr. Mukherjee SHRI I. K. GUJRAL: Mr. Chi- was not only an eminent jurist, an dambaram has been a very eminent eminent Chief Justice but in him I Member of the House for long years. have also lost a personal friend. 1 had He is more eminent as a Minftter and the privilege of knowing Mr. Mukher- he also knows that the decisions on jee over years and the more I knew the spot should not be taken and he him the more I admired him. also knows that it is necessary that 93 Attention & care given ASVINA 12, 1912 {SAKA) of India Shri 94 by Indian High SalmLsarhi Contmission in London Mukherjee during to Late Chief Justice his illness responsibility, if needed, should be panel of that hospital and that hos- fixed and that I think is the last thing pital by all accounts I could know that Mr. Mukherjee himself would and 1 cannot comment on that, there- have wished becausc judicial proccss fore m> wi)rds should not be taken are very important in such cases like for it was considered to be a this. {Interruptions). On the un- gcu)d hospital. After that, mov- fortunate day when Mr. Mukherjee ing into a private hospital became landed in London, that was the un- (lifticult because the slate of his health fortunate day when Mr. Kuldip Nayyar was such that taking him away from himself was in hospital under a surgi- one hospital to another was not con- cal operation. But, an officer was sidered advisable by the doctors. Even appointed who was all the time at- then.. .. tached while in hospital or ()theiwise. Deputy High Commissioner was visit- (fnterruptiofis) ing the Hospital twice on all the days. I am making the statement as made SHRT SONIOSH MOHAN DEV: to me subject to corrections. ...{In (Tripura West): Let him not give a terruptions), It in no way means that certificate. It will be pre-judijing the I am contradicting Mrs. Mukherjee. inquiry. That is why enquiry is necessary so (Interruptions) that responsibility is fixed. But, at the same time, 1 would only say this thing that so far as reimbursement etc, SHRI I. K. (JUJRAL: Please give T think there has been confusion creat- me one minute. ed by the officer whose explanation (Interruptions) and responsibility has already been fixed becausc he acted suo-moto in an [Tf an slat ion] area where he should not have and ac- tion against him had already been MR. SPEAKER: Sontosh Mohanji, initiated. Therefore, there arc no such he dill not want to speak. rules so far as this is concerned. It is unfortunate that when this illness (Interruptions) came it came in two waves -if T may use that word —as Mr, Mukherjee was [English] dccending from the plane then on the SHRI I. K. GUJRAL: I am gi\ing last step he was slightly unsteady and the information, whatever I have just the officers standing next to him gave now. But I say subject to coriection, him support and brought him. Un- subject t(’> the final judgment and linal fortunately, Mr. Muherjee was also a verdict by the inquiry. That is what diabetic. I am saying Therefore, I am only sharing the liist information that 1 have because I think the hon. Mem- I he first suspicion of the Airport bers would expect me to share it. Doctor who was called immediately was that perhaps he had diabetes. SHRI VASANT SATHE: Pending Therefore, they gave whatever they inquiry what action are you taking thought was appropriate. T cannot against the High Commi.ssioner? comment on that. Thereafter, Mr. Mukherjee moved into his hosts house. (Interruptions) The second attack, unfortunately, came when he was staying with the host. SHRI I. K. GUJRAL: f am not And the host immediately called her suggesting that my word should be doctor and even her doctor advised taken as a final word. J am only that he should be taken to that parti- sharing what information 1 have and, cular hospital because her doctor was therefore, I will again repeat, I am a general practitioner, who was on the willing to appoint an Inquiry Officer^ 7 -1 LSS/ND/91 95 Aifcntion d care given OCTOBER 4. 1990 of M ia Shri Sabymachi 96 hy Indian High Mukherjee during his Commission in London illness to Late Chief Justice [Sh. 1. K. Gujral] was on a private visit. What does it mean? Why had he to make this I mean, a Judge if you want, by Mr. excuse? This makes us very suspi- Vcnugopal himself, if you want. I am cious about the lapses that he com- willing to get it inquired into. mitted there. We agree...... (Interruptions) SHRI INDRAJIT GUPTA (Midna- SHRI VASANT SATHE: Sir, these pore): Docs he agree that he is on a private visit? {Interruptions). are two different things. You should know the feeling of the House. Inquiry SHRI SAIFUDDIN CHOU- and what rules to be amended etc. DHURY : No. no. He has written will take place later. Now, all that it. Sir. {Interruptions), What occa- we arc saying is, prinm facie on the sioned Mr. Kuldip Nayyar to tell statement of Mrs. Mukherjee heard by this? He is highly irresponsible. not one person but by so many of us and also Mr. Vcnugopal...... SHRI K. S. RAO (Machilipatnam): [Tnmslatian] Let the Minister concede to call him back. (Interruptions), MR. SPEAKER: He is saying that the Government is prepared to hold a SHRI SAIFUDDIN CHOU- judicial inquiry. DHURY: Why he has to say that Mr. Mukherjee was on a private visit? SHRI VASANT SATHE: A judi- This is a dishonour to the memory of cial inquiry will come latrr. Mr. Mukherjee. {Interruptions). [English] [Translation] I am saying, prima jm'ie we want to- day that the High Commissioner MR. SPEAKER: Choudhuryji, should bo recalled. Inquiry can be please listen, the hon. Minister is res- made later. Otherwise we will move ponding. {Interruptions), a resolution just now. [English] We move a motion and expose this. What is this? You cannot take this House for granted like this. Sir. SHRI I. K. GUJRAL: So far as the private and the official visit are SHR! CHANDRA vSHEKHAR: concerned. Sir, it is a sort of a diplo- Mr. Speaker, Sir. there is no questirn matic parlance where a person who is of moving a resolution. But I shall not on invitation of the local govern- request the hon. Minister, through ment is always on a private visit. you, that he should be more positive {Interruptions), about the behaviour of Mr. Kuldip Nayyar because from what he has SHRI SAIFUDDIN CHOU- written in his letter, he has tried to DHURY: Where the man is dying, find some cxcuses for not attending why this type of questions are brought properly on the former Chief Justice into ? {Interruptions), of India. If he continues as the High Commissioner, any inquiry will be SHRI CHANDRA SHEKHAR: vitiated. So, this gentleman should All words of diplomacy should not be be removed from that position before utilised. All technical words of dip- the inquiry is made. lomacy should not have been Utilised or used in the matter of such a seri- SHRI SAiraiDDIN CHOUDHURY ous nature, and it is totally callous (Katwa): 1 agree with what Mr. on the part of the High Commissioner Indrajit Gupta said. Mr. Kuldip to say that technically he was not on Nayyar has said that Mr. Mukherjee a public visit and I am sorry that my 97 Attention d care given ASVINA 12, 1912 {SAKA) of India Shri 98 by Indian High Sabyasachi Commission in London Mukherjee during his to Late Chief Justice illness friend. Mr. Gujral is supporting that SHRI VASANT SATHE: Sir, I because of technical reasons he used move my resolution under Rule 171. in this language. It indicates his mind and this point should be corrccted. ‘That this House resolves that Shri Kuldip Nayyar, High Com- missioner in UK be recalled im- SHRI r. K. GUJRAL: 1 am not mediately.’* defending any one. [Tramiadon] SHRI SAIFUDDIN CHOU- DHURY: What was the need for MR. SPEAKER; There are ceitain telling this? Rules for moving resolutions. (Interrupt ions) MR. SPEAKER: He says he is not defending any one. [English] SHRI I. K. GUJRAL: Sir, I am not defending anyone and 1 am not SHRI CHANDRA SHEKHAR: If talcing any position. iIniermption&). he wants a notice, we can give a notice. Mr. Speaker, if the Ministers behave in this manner, it is unfortunate. If DR. DEBI PROSAD PA L: I would the House wants to express its senti- like to Inow whether it is a fact that ments, the hon. Minister s.iys that give the Chief Justice ot India told that a notice and then move a resolution. I when he goes back to India he shall say that there is no question of reso- report the callous attitude of the High lution. On this matter a resolution Commissioner. That is what he told is not necessary; it is a question of his wife. emotion of the House. SHRI I. K. GUJRAL: 1 am not SHRI VASANT SATHE: If you defending any individual. J have only want an enquiry, how can be an en- placcd before the House the facts that quiry fair and proper if the same nmn I know or that have been shown to me. against whom the enquiry is going to But I have also said that let a proper be held continues as Higii Commis- enquiry be held by a judge if you so sioner? wish or by Mr. Venugopal if you so wish. The word “private” has been [Translation] used in a letter which I wanted to show in so far as the expenses are MR. SPEAKER: Mr. Suthc, there concerned. are some Rules for moving Resolu- tions. SHRI VASANT SATHE: Under (Intenuptions) Rule 171 I am moving a resolution. If you don’t a^ree to it, then I am [tngiish] moving a resolution. SHRI INDRAJIT GUPTA: The SHRI I. K. GUJRAL: Let me finish least that can be done, the least I first. Let an enquiry person be named. say, pending the enquiry - who is going After naming the enquiry whatever to carry out the enquiry is still to be procedures are suggested, I will ac- decided in all fairne'^s. tlie High Com- cept all that. missioner should be asked to go on leave. He cannot be allowed to con- SHRI CHANDRA SHEKHAR: tinue while the enquiry is going on. Mr. Kuldip Nayyar cannot continue. I 1 would like to know from the hon. don't want these niceties of discussions. Minister whether he will accept this. 99 AUeation d caiv givm OCrOBER 4* 1990 6ftnSa m « » by tndim High SeAvusdchi Commission in London Mtdcherjee during Ms to Late Chief Justice illness MR. SPEAKER: On what Shri (3) All possible financial and oUier Indrajit Gupta said, let us hear the assistance should be given to Mrs. Minister. Mukherjee and in future ensure that such recurrence cannot take place (Interruptions) and proper care taken. {Imterruptions) SHRI GUMAN MAL LODHA: 1 only want to reinlorce this. A judge SHRI SAMARENDRAKUNDU: of the Supreme Court has been asked (Balasore): Sir. are you giving a chance 10 prcKeed on long leave pending en- to go around this whole discussion? quiry by the Chief Justice of India. It We can resolve it after lunch. {Interrupt was a Departmental enquiry. I>ut now tions) it is such a serious charge and 1 regret to say thit when the hon. Minister him- MR. SPEAKER: I have to resolve self went there on the next day things this issue and you know it. were so patent they were not latent. I have met Mrs. Mukherjee and talked SHRI SAMARENDRA KUNDU: to her for one hour. She was all the Sir. I know you want to resolve this lime in tears. One thing she empha- issue, {interruptions) sized was that her husband said re- peatedly that if he had known all this SHRI DINESH SINGH (Pratap- he would not have come. When he garh): Sir, first I want a clarification. rcaches India back he would tell the If I heard the hon. Minister correctly, Prime Minister that please never send he mentioned that a visit is a private a Chief Justice to any such conferences visit, unless the person is invited by when a High Commissioner cannot the Government concerned. Now. 1 take care of him even like an ordinary would beg to differ with him. I would man. She said that sl e went from like him not to make such a categori- pillar to post tor four days. It is un- cal sUitement without first clearly fortunate that the hon. Minister, understanding the implications. A per- although in a very oolite manner, has son may be invited by a Government tried to defend an indefensible action. and then he goes at the invitation of !t is a shame brought to all of us. that Government. That visit, depend- ing on the seniority of the person and The Vice Chanjellor of the Delhi the position he holds, could be a State University Shri Baxi said that he has visit; could be a visit at the invitation sent a telegram to the High Commis- ol the Government concerned. When sioner saying that “we are ashamed of our Ciovernment sends somebody, he you." is on an Odicial visit and not on a private visit. You send an Emissary Immediately after this happened, to a country, then, he is on an Official he said. “I have sent a telegram to visit; you send an Ambassador, he is him, vStating we are ashamed of you’". on an Onicial visit; you send Members We all feel so, [Interruptions) Sir, do of Parliament to the United Nations, not try to postpone things. Immediately, they are on an Official visit and they the things that have to be done are: are not on a private visit; they arc not invited by the Government concerned. (1) The High Commissioner should So, there is a difference between an be recalled; pending his recall, if cer- invitation, an Official visit and a pri* tain things are to be done, he must vate visit. When a person of the sta- be asked to proceed on long leave; tus of the Chief Justice, visits a <;ounr try, even if it is purely a private visit— (2) A Joint Parliamentary Com* this was not a purely private visit, he mhtee may be awH>iiUed here and now, wan in transit-^^be is entitled to cer- to go into the matter and to report; tain facilities* certain cpurtesies in tte Att0Htbm4k«ar«$ivm ^fiitHaSfui 101 by htdim High ASVIKA 12,1$U SalfyasiKfii IQ | CwmissUminlonthn MtMerJee durini to Late Chief Justice his Hlness country. A High Couunissionei cau- you please take up this matter and ao- not say that became he is oa a private nounc SOME HON. MEMBERS . No, no. SHRI VASANT SATHE: Ask him {Interruptions} to procccd on leave immediately. {Interruptions). By tomorrow, he must SHRI HARIN PATHAK: We can- be on leave. He should proceed on not agree. {Interruptions) leave to India. {Interruptiom) SHRI VASANT SATHE: Arc you SHRI I. K. GUJRAL: You are well suggesting that Parliament is inferior aware and so is the hon. House how (Interrupt to some inquiry officer? much 1 respect the wishes of a demo- tiom) cratically elected House like this which is a sovereign body. And I respect it SHRI I. K. GUJRAL: No. I sub- a great deal. The suggestion made by mit this thing. When you inflict the Mr. Chandra Shekhar will receive my punishment, you must lix the respon- attention. {Interruptions) sibility first whether he was respon- sible or not. {Interruptions) I am willing. Let the inquiry be held by SOME HON. MEMBERS: No. no. a Supreme Court Judge or by Mr. {Inlerruptions) Venugopal, whatever you say, I will on leave. {Interruptions) 13.40 hrs. SHRI CHANDRA SHEKHAR: Mr. The Lolc Sabha then adjourned for Speaker. Sir, hon. Mr. Indrajit Gupla Lunch till forty-five minutes past Four has given a via media. 1 shall request teen of the Clock. the hon. Minister to accept that sug- gestion of Mr. Indrajit Gupta in order to avoid further embarrassment to all of us. I think, hon. Mr. Chidambaram The Lok Sabha re-a.ssemhled after and Mr. Sathe will also agree to it Lunch at forty-eight minutes past that he should Immciliately proceed Fourteen of the Clock on leave. (Interruptions) [MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER in SHRI INDRAJIT GUPTA: Who- the Cfuiir] ever is making the inquiry, he will have to be examined also. (Interruptions) SHRI CHANDRA SHEKHAR: He RE. ATTENTION AND CARE will also be examined. GIVEN BY THE INDIAN HIGH COMMISSION IN LONDON TO SHRI DINESH SINGH: V/hat sta- LATE CHIEF JUSTICE OF INDIA tus will he have in that country? SHRI SABYASACHl MUKHERJEE (Interruptions) DURING HIS ILLNESS—Co/tfrf. [English] SHRI CHANDRA SHEKHAR: Sir, 1 am requesting Mr. Dinesh Singh. SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM (Siva- When he will be on leave, he will not ganga): Sir. this morning, there was be in that country. He will be in this an Impromptu discussion on the cal- country. Then, he will be on private lousness shown by the High Commis- visit there. {Interruptions) So, 1 think sioner and his officers to the Late that the hon. Minister should accept Chief Justice. Mr. Mukharji. TTiele the suggestion of Mr. Indrajit Gupta. was an unanimous demand in this (Interruptiifns) House...... {InterrupHom)...... Who are 105 Attention & care given ASVINA 12, 19)2 (SAKA) o f India Shri 106 by Indian High Sabyasachi Mukherjee Commission in London during his iftness to Late Chief Justice you to say that it is over? Sir, there the Chief Justicc or met Mrs, was an unanimous demand by all the Mukherjee until his death at party leaders and all the Members 8 O’clock on the morning of who spoke demanded, without dissent, 25th.” that the High Commisioner should be recalled immediately. Thereafter. Mr. Indrajit Gupta made a suggestion and One statement made by the External Mf. Chandra Shekhai endorsed his Affairs Minister apparently on wrong suggestion that the via media is to ask instructions is proved to be false. 1 the High Commissioner to proceed on can read paragraph by paragra|>h of leave. And to thal, the External this report, if you give me permission, Affairs Minister responded very cryp- tically by saying that this suggestion r insist that the debate is not over. will receive his attention. At that We insist that the debate has to be point of time, the Speaker was pleas- resumed. Now that the Prime Minister ed to adjourn the House. That does has come, there can be no excuse for not mean that the debate is concluded. not taking a decision now. We demand This morning. I said that I would like three things. One, immediate recall to lay on the Table of the House, if of the High Commissioner; two. the the Government does not respond posi- Government must.. .{Interruptions), 1 tively, the report prepared by Mr. am not yielding...... {Interruptions. I K. K. Venugopal, President of the have not yielded. Are you allowing Supreme Court Bar Association, after him to interrupt me? I am not yield- discussing with Mrs. Mukharji. He ing unless you ask me to sit down...... also said that he !»poke to the High (Interruptions), Mr, Kundu can change Commissioner. 1 have spoken to Shri his position between morning and Venugopal and 1 have told him that afternoon, we cannot change our posi- I am going to place this report on the tion. Table of the House. Re has no objec- tion to the report being laid f>n the Table of the House. On the contrary, SHRI SAMARENDRA KUNDU: may We are not changing our position...... he says that the report be laid Unlerrtiptions). on the Table of the House so that the Parliament and the world will know what discussions we had. This THE MINISTER OF INFORMA- report is a damning indictmcnt of what TION AND BROADCASTING AND the High Commisisoner’s office did. MINISTER OF PARLIAMENTARY This morning the External Affairs AFFAIRS (SHRI P. UPENDRA): Minister said that the Deputy High The Minister has already responded to Commisisoner visited the hospital what was said. twice a day. Here is Mrs. Mukherjee, who says: SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: We have moved a motion...... {Interrupt “At no time did any officer of the tions). Will you ask him to sit down? High Commisisoner ever meet her I am on my legs. How can he inter- until she telephoned the Deputy rupt me? High Commissioner Mr Haider at the request of the Chief Justice of India, who wanted to see the We have given a motion under sanction order to find out whether Rule 388. If technical grounds are his visit was being treated as offi- put in the way, let me quote Prof. cial or private. Mr. Haider then Madhu Dandavate who said that in met him in the afternoon on the a matter like this, what matters Is 23rd. Even thereafter* no High not rules but substance. We have . Commisison official came to visit given a motion. 107 AticniUm & care ^^iven OCTOBER 4, 1990 of India Shri Sabyasachi 108 by /mlian High Mukherfee during his Conmmsion in London illness to Late Chie f Justice THE MINISTER OF FINANCE Sir, I request your permission to (PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE): lay* this report on the Table of the Please excuse me for a second. 1 House. do not want to stand when you are PROF. MADHU DANTAVATE: standing. On a point of order. Sir. 1 have never any objection to anyone seeking per- SHRI P, CHIDAMBARAM: Not mission to lay the papers on the Table Rules, but courtesy. of the House. But as you know it very will, according to the Rules of PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE: Procedure, one who wants to lay the TFiat is right. papers on the Table of the House, firstly has to submit the same to the In relation to what happened in Chair: the Chair has to examine and London, he said that the Finance after that he has to authenticate Minister might use the rules; 1 said: about the authenticity of the papers for me what is important is courtesy 1 suggest that that procedure should and not rules. You can quote me, be followed. hut quote me correctly. SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: I SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: Let have already authenticated them. I mt paraphrase Prof. Madhu Danda- went to the Deputy Speaker's cham- vate. At least what he said in another ber and 1 have told him about this context is—what matters is not rules, in the morning. hut substance. SHRI VASANT SATHE: This subject can really be settled in a We have given a motion under graceful and dignified manner. 1 am Rule 388 to suspend that part of Rule glad that the hon. Prime Minister is 170, if necessary, which requires at here. No personal thing is made any- least two days notice. Wc have mov- where. We are not against any per- ed a motion for abundant caution son as such, be it a lligh Commis- under Rules 170, 171 and 184. It is sioner or anybody else. Let us be for you to decide under which rule very clear. This is not the issue. The you will admit it. The point is that issue is that the manner in which there is a resolution before this House a very senior, top most person oi the and everybody who spoke this morn- judiciary of India, the Chief Justice ing spoke eloquently and demanded who by protocol also stands third, the withdrawal of the High Commis- has lost his life is very sad. There sioner. Let us go to the resolution. is an clement of negligence involved The Government is not willing to in it. There is a dereliction of duty budge, the Government is standing on and that too by the highest official, false prestige: Government wants to i.e. the High Commissioner himself protect somebody, but the Parliament who in his official statement takes the of India unanimously wants the High plea that he was on a private visit Commissioner to he recalled. What and that is why they could not take is the moral authority of Mr. ISIayyar all those steps that were required to to represent India in the United be taken for the medical treatment be- Kingdom when the Parliament of cause reimbursement was not ensur- India has expressed no-confidence in ed. Now, certainly, T am sure the him. Parliament of India says that it Hon. Prime Minister will agree that has no-confidence in him. You were no person of that rank that too a not here, Mr. Upendra. Every single High Commissioner—can take the speaker wanted Mr. Kuldip Nayyar to excuse of not giving the assistance to be recalled. such a person who was already a *As the speaker subsequently did not accord the necessary permission, the paper was not treated as laid on the table. 109 Attention A cate glvm ASVINA 12,191^SAKA) of India Shri SAyma- UO by Indian High cM Mukherjee dtering his Commission bt London illness to Late Chief Justice heart patient. We have heaid the the minimuin thing diat should be statement of his wife, probably the d Parliament to appoint a Joint Parlia- that You and M^ C hid^aiM mentary CommStee to inquire into had a S l T Ple£^ ^ T m e ^ the matter because that is what we owe as one institution to another nisti- tu tio ^ Therefore, Sir. I w o u l^ g - ffc said: “I wiU look into it and he gMt two t ^ i ^ Fint, that &e Prime will receive my attention." After that. Ministn sh(wld agree to ask him to the Speaker adjourned the House for p n ^ m Mve pendiM inquiry by Lunch because we were hungiy. fo a Jomt Parliamentary Committee to the meantime. I had spokenooce to be app(Hiited by the House. This is the S^>eaker. I said: “What is gdns •«-4 tSS/NDW ^ 111 Setting tm o f Dev. OCTOBER 4,1990 Marathwada A other 112 Boards for Vidarbha, regions in Maharashtra (Sh. Sameffiodta Kusdu] SHRI KAMAL NATH (Chhind- wara): Mr. Deputy S^)eaker. Sir, I on? Kindly, do it after the Adjourn- too have given a notice. ment Motion. I am trying to bring out a Resolution”. On this, the Spea- MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Not ker was quite happy. So, this was in this manner. It will te*open the rightly done. Now, again you have whole issue. Mr. Purohit. you may stated it. (Interruptions) Please speak, but please be brief. don’t tiy to bring boift the matters. (Interruptions) SHRI BANWARILAL PUROHIT; SHRI VASANT SATHE: After Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, at the time hearing the entire House what have of reorganisation of states Pandit you decided? You said, you will con- Jawaharlal Nehru was the Prime sider it. Minister and Gobind Vallabh Pant was the Minister of Home Affairs. PROF. MADHU DANDAVA.TE: While merging Vidarbha and Mara- Sir, to put the record straight, after thwada regions with the newly orga- listening to the viewpoints expressed nised state of Maharashtra, both these by boA the sections of the House, leaders had given an assurance to the the Minister of External Affairs said— people of these regions that the re- Mr. Giandra Sekhar had repeated the gional imbalances in terms of deve- suggestion of Shri Indrajit Gupta -- lopment would be removed. They had that Shri Chandra Sekhar’s sugges- even gone to the extent of saying that tion will receive his attention. He is a liberal attitude would be adopted working on that. Now, I would re- in respect of these areas. quest—since Mr. Sathe has said—let us do the things honourably. Leave Sir. today, we have passed a con- it at that. If you find that on the stitution Amendment Bill. There was lines that you have suggested, noth- a purpose behind it. Similarly, in ins: comes out, tomorrow is there 19^, the people of Vidarbha and which is the last day of the Se.Nagpur): Mr. Deputy Speaker, pions would be constituted by the Sir, I have given a notice regarding Seventh. But nothing happened on the need to constitute Development that day. Even the next session is Boards in the Vidarbha and Marath- about to start and to this date no wada regions of Maharashtra. There- action has been taken by fte Goveni- fore I request you to give me two ('•eTii in respect of the establishment minutes to raise that is5sue in the of Devflopment Boaids for Vidatbha House. and Marathwada. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER; Okay. Sir. thiouid) yoo, I would Iflce to You may speak. submit to the Govenuaeot that lh» 113 Setting 1 9 ((f Dev. A&VOtA 12, m2(SAKA) Marathwada A other 114 Boards for Vidarbha, regions in Maharashtra agitatioa in these regioos is gaining assured for Konkan. But various pro* momentum and in case tiie present posals have been coming fnm tto statement continues, it may worsen StiUes. tiie situation. The situation in both Punjab and Kashmir has deteriorat- First, there was some difficulty with ed over the yeais. The situation in tiie Governor. He gave a proposal Assam has remained pretty bad for because he has all the right. He said, a long time now. Do they want the this is not a proper thing in a demo- Vidarbha and the Marathwada also cracy. So, we have to appl> our mind. fall in that category? They are just seekmg justice from the Government. Then, another proposal came from Today, 35 years have passed since the Maharashtra State to have Vid- the Union ^vemment gave an assu- harba. Marathwada, Koukan and the rance in 1956 to the pconle of these rest of the Maharashtra. On regions that Development Boards this—just a moment—with the would be constituted tor these artus, Members of Parliament I had met under Article 371 of the Constitu- There were some diffeicnces of opi- tion. But that assurance has not nion. i said I would call all the been fulfilled so far. Today, the Members of Parliament, and also the people of these regions are an exploit- Chief Minister, and then we would ed lot. Although, they are entitled to take a decision after hearing every- 25 F«r cent of the State’s budgetary one. and the Chief Minister. I stand provisions, only a sum of Rs. 180 by this commitment, and we will be crores is made available for them in- calling the Members of Parliament slvMcl of rupees 500 crores. this very month—and the Chief people are being denied their share Minister. {Interruptions) and it is agitating the minds of the people of these regions and causing MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: No. resentment among them. Please. (Interruptions) Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would like to ask the Hon. Prime Minister SHRI KAMAL NATH- Sir. this and the Minister of Home Affairs, is a question aimed at you. This the reaison for the delay in intro- Government has been resignation- ducing these legislations when they are prone, and the 9th Lok Sabha has saying that everything is ready “ for also been resignation-prone. We have that and that a Presidential order is been hearing that the Prime Minister required for the establishment of De- resigns; he says he is not resigning. velopment Boards for these regions. The Ministers are resigning, and then There is only one day left before the not resigning. Some MPs are resign- current session is over. The Govern- ing. Now we hear in the Press i£at ment should bring forward an amend- Shri Devi Lai has resigned. So. my ment for the establishment of a Deve- question is to you. Sir, the Deputy lopment Board for ^ Konkan region. Speaker sitting on the Chair: What If it is a time consuming process, has happened to Shri Devi Lai’s resig- then at least do not defer the crea- nation? There was a lot drama en- tion of Development Boards for Vid- acted about it. In their party meet- arbha and Marathwada and the Gov- ing, he went and gave that to the ernment should also see to it that no Prime Minister. So. has Shri Devi hmdrance is created in this regard. Lai resigned, or not resigned? We heard of Ministers who have ledgn- lEnglish] ed. and the Prime Minister not r e s ^ - THE PRIME MINISTER (SHRI ittg. We heard that it is the Prime VISHWANATH PRATAP SINGH); Mmister who has resigned, and the Sir. so far as the Central Govemmatt MPs have not resigned, and eventu* is concerned, it has no problem re- ally, no («e has resigned. So, what oanKng creation ci the Board for about the story of Shri Devi La!7 vidlutm aad Mabanubtm. We have Will you please tell tiie Hottte? Se Dev. OCTOBER 4,1990 iigrethwada A 116 115 other regions in Maharashtra [Sh. Kamal N&th.] SHRI VASANT SATHE: Yes. before the adjournment motion. That We want to know what has happened to our colleague. (Intaruption) is why I am raising it. The short point is this; we are very sorry: a SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE; Motion, and that too. a Constitution Can questions be put like this? There Amendment Bill is before the House, is a limit (Interruptiom) it is going to be taken up. Regard- [Translation] ing what is going to be done in the House, you cannot prevent it, and no- SHRI K. D. SULTANPURI: Mr. body can pre-empt it and announce Deputy Speaker. Sir, train services it on TV that the House shall—i.e. stand disrupted...... (interruptions)... the Speaker shall waive.... See the MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Now wording, ‘shall waive the rule’. The we are taking up the Adjoununent Minister announced it hinuelf. This Motion, please take your seat. is at the discretion of the hon. Speaker. Then he says: “The House [En^ish] shall....”. Sir. kindly see this. SHRI VASANT SATHE; Before 1 have heard it three times. He says the Adjournment Motion, there is a the House will pas.« it without dis- privilege Motion I had given. cussion. This he had announced. So, kindly see that no Minister, or no MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: It is under consideration. {Interruptions) media particularly, does it. He speaks about both the Houses. SHRI VASANT SATHE: You bad allowed me. Sir. You said ^ou would allow me. I will tell you why. I do not understand this: here is Unfortunately, it is about the media a Minister who says he wants auto- and the hon. Mr. Upendra. It is nomy; he has already given it. Has never done: Parliament is in session, the autonomy now come to such a the Constitution Amendment Bill is to be taken up.... stage when he instructs, and his in- struction and statement are carried MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Mr. by AIR and Doordarshan? I cannot Sathe, you have given it; and it is understand this. (Interruptions) It is {Interruptions) under consideiotion. a direct breach of privilege of the pro- ceedings of die House. No Minister SHRI VASANT SATHE: I have already told him; I have ah^ady can do that. So. kindly allow us to spoken to the hon. Speaker in the move a breach of privilege Motion morning. The rule provides for it. against him. He has agreed with me. He said: ‘Yes: this matter may be allowed.* He ^ said that this will be taken up MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The immediately after the Constitution documents which have been submitted Amendment Bill. {InterruptUm) by Mr. Chidambaram will be examin- ed. for appropriate action. {Interrup MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER; Did he say that? tions). _____ 117 Adjowmment Motion ASVINA 12,1912{SAKA) against Govt's decision 118 Police atrocities onMandd Conmdssion in dealit^ with Report etc* students agitation 15.10 hn. schools. A large number of buses ADJOURNMENT MOTION had been burnt. Fropert)* worth Polke ateoddes in dealing with crores of rupees had been lost Stodents* agitalioB against Govern* Everyone is looking at each other with meat’s decision on Maadal Ctim- susjHcious eyes. mission Report and resort to self inunohttiou liy students aeilast SHRI INDRAJIT GUPTA (Mid- die decision napore): You also. You are looking lEr^ish] at me. I am looking at you. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER; Now SHRI B. SHANKARANAND: I we take up Adjournment Motion. am not looking at you. Perhaps I will Mr. B. Shankaranand. come to that how I look at you. May SHRl B. SHANKARANAND I say that today there is a danger be- (Chikkodi): I beg to move: cause the country is emotionally disin- tegrated. Caste is set up against caste. “That the House do now adjourn” The society is divided on the caste I have risen with a very heavy lines. Immediately after the Prime heart to move this Adjournment Minister’s sudden declaration express- Motion. ing sympathy for the backward classes, SHRI HARIN PAFHAK (Ahrae- the whole country had been plunged damad): What about 377.’ into darkness. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: We Before I procecd further, I want to will take it up after the disposal of make it very clear to the hon. Members this motion. that the reservation for the SC&ST is SHRI B. SHANKARANAND: To- deliberately mixed up with the reser- day almost the entire northern India vation for the backward classes by is full of tears. There are tears in the the Government iccording to the eyes of mothers and fathers whose Mandal Commission Report. I would young sons and daughters had laid not say about a particular Minister down their lives against the reserva- or others, but the government is deli* tion quota. In such a pathetic condi- berately mixing up the reservation for tion, we are now discussinc; this Ad- the SC&ST with the reservation for journment Motion. I rei^uest the the backward classes as reported ^ hon. Members to be a little serious the Mandal Commission Report about it because it is not a small There is a history on reservation for matter. the SC&ST. SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE 1 would like to take a little time (Bolpur): What do you mean by of the House about the history of that? Are they not serious? reservations for the Scheduled Castes SHRI B. SHANKARANAND: I and the Scheduled Tribes so that the am requesting the hon. Members in- plan and the strategy of the Govern* cluding you...... ment in mixing fliese reservations with SHRI SOMNATH CHATTER- the reservations for the backwaid JEE: We want you to say something classes will be clear. about it but you are not saying any- It was in 1932, long before Inde- ing about it. pendeoce that Dr. Ambedlar reore* SHRI B. SHANKARANAND: sented the untouchables—^today mey Students are self-immolatir^; they are are called the Scheduled Castes—and taking poison. Schools and ednca- he represented the uotoucitaUes in tiona! institutions are closed. Parents the Round Table Conference. And are simply dithering from sending then, the British Prime Minister Mr. their Children to schools; they are McDonald gave a idan. which was a f^ d of seodiog their childim to called the Commuiuu Awasd. The 119 Adjournment Motion OCTOBER 4,1990 against Oovt.*s 120 Police atrocities in dealing decision on Mandal with students agitation Commisston Report etc. [Sh. B. Shankiaranand] immediately wrote to the British Pnme Minister and said. “I cannot self-detennuiation policy was announ- accept this C<»nmunal Award”, ia ced by the British, the rigjit for ^If- Pune. He said, “1 am gomg on a detemination given to the religious fast unto death unless the British minorities, the Hindus, the Muslims withdrew this.” It was a challenge and the untouchables. The untouch- to Dr. Ambedkar also, and the fast ables were given &e right for self- started on the 20th September, 1932. determination as it was given to the m Poona in Yerwada prison. Pres- Muslims and the Hindus. sure was brought on Dr. Ambedkar that he should not press for the rights SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE: for the untouchables, and that he That was separate. should agree to the p rc^sal of Gan- SHRI B SHANKARANAND: I dhiji and save the life of Ciandhiji. After four days Dr. Ambedkar said. am coming to that. 'T he life of Gandhiji is precious, let SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE: the Hindus have more chance to re- That was for different electorates. form themselves and look to the un- touchables as equals.” And he gave SHRI B. SHANKARANAND: I the valuable right of separate electo- hope you do not want to hear what rates. to save Gandhiji’s life. That I am saying. happened .n 1932. SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE: Thereafter an agreement was I cannot understand what you say. brou ght out between Gandhiji and Dr. SHRI B. SHANKARANAND: Amb«Jkar and that Pact is called the Woe betide the Barrister! He won’t Pune Pact. With the intervention of understand what I am saying! some political leaders then. Dr. Am- Un}erruptivas) bedkar agreed for a primary election before the election aS the representa- I cannot claim to have better tive of the Scheduled Castes—the un- English than you. {Interruptions) touchables. In that primary election, both sides agreed that a panel of four This Communal Awaid was given people may be drawn and the rest of on the 17th August, 1932 and as I the Hmdu voters should vote for the said, the then untouchaWes who were election of the leaders, the represen- represented by Dr. Baba Saheb Am- tatives of the untouchables. Dr. b^kar in the Round Table Confe- Ambedkar had agreed for that. rence, got this right, the right for Some concessions were given to self-determination by sq>arate elec- the untouchables. Dr. Ambedkar torates. The separate electorate was pursued to that till he brought for this that the untouchables were the proposals before the Con- given the right to elect their own re- stituent Assembly and the reser- presentatives and Ihe Hindus were vaticms for the untouchables were given the righMo elect their own re- hammered out and made into the presentatives the Muslims were provisions of the Constitution. There given the right to elect their own re- is a wonderful history about the presentatives. Along \dth that, the Scheduled Castes and the Scheduled untouchables were also given a right Tribes. The reservations made for to elect a representative, a Hmdu also. the minorities, the Sikhs, the Par- In that way two votes were given to sees. the Muslims were wididrawn... the untouchables. (Interrupfionsi I am talking about the matter before tt|£ Independence Gandhiii came back from London and before the Constitution WM and he rejected the proposal. He drawn. 121 Adjowmmeni Motion ASV1NA12,I912(S^JS:<4) against Govt.'s 122 Police atrocities decision on in dealing with Mandal Commission students agitation Report etc. There was Minority Committee, in which Dr. Ambedkar was a member. SHRI B.SHANKARANAND: No. Sardar Valiabhai Patel was also a The confusion was created by the member. Maulana Abul Kalam speech of the Prime Minister, the Azad was also a member. The statement of the Prime Minister in leaders of the minoi-ities were also Parliament on 27th August 1990. there. The leaders of the minorities There is a serious feeling that this demanded the withdrawal of their issue of reservation for the backward reservation in 1947-48. But Dr. Am- classes also has something to do with bedkar said: “No. I am not going the reservation of the Scheduled to succumb to this pressure. I stand Castes..... {Interruptions) for the reservation of Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes.” The SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE; Scheduled Castes and the Sche- What is the subject of the adjourn- duled Tribes were then called ment mfAionl ...{Interruptions) the untouchables. That is how, the provisions of reservations under SHRI B. SHANKARANAND: various Articles of the Consti- It is creating confusion...(Merrw/x- tution were brought in. So, this ticm) Can we not have saved the reservation has a histoiy behind it. country from this confusion? Please Thereafter the reservations were not do not add to it...(Interruptions) only given in the services but also under the Constitution the seats in SHRI SOMNATH CHATTER- both the State Legislatures and the JEE: Confusion is on that side. Parliament were also reserved. Poli- There is no confusion on this side. tical reservations were made. Edu- {Interruptions} cational concessions were given. Age for employment was extended. Fees SHRI B. SHANKARANAND: for the posts and fees in educational Confusion is whipping up the feel- institutions were reduced. Many ing...(/nrcrmpft'owj) Now this is concessions were given to the Sche- for the Scheduled Castes (rf this duled Castes and Scheduled Tribes. country, not to be confused with I need not go into all these provisions the reservation of the backward clas- of the Constitution. But there is a ses. The Scheduled Castes people history for the reservations of the are not opposed to the reservaticm for Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tri- the backward- class people. The bes and they have been enumerated in Congress Party is not opposed to the reservation for the backward classes. the Constitution. Now, If I refer it We are not at all against reservations. to this context, what were the terms We are for reservation for these peo- ot reference for Mandal Ccwnmission? ple ...... {Interruption) The Mandal Commission does not talk about the reservation of the THE MINISTER OF STATE IN Stheduled Castes and Sidieduled Tri- THE MINISTRY OF EXTERNAL bes. So. let us not mix up these AFFAIRS (SHRI HARI KISHORE SINGH): Nice to hear this clear issues and confuse the people of this statement from you. country. Let there not be any con- fusion...... (latermptions) T will tell SHRI B. SHANKARANAND: as to how somebody is confusing. T We are very much for the reserva- r.m coming to HOit....interruption^ tion for backward classes, We do not paint a picture of our party that SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE: we are q>posed to it. Confusion is on ttat side. 123 Adjournment Motion OCTOBER 4,1990 against GovtJ*s 124 Police atrocities decision on in dealing with Mandal Commission students agitation Report etc. SHRl HARI KISHORE SINGH; [Tran^afion] We want you to say what is your stand.. .(fnterruptions) MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER; This topic was scheduled to be takwi up SHRI B. SHANKARANAND: at 2 O’clock and should have been Could we not have saved the lives over by 6 O’clock but it could be of young boys? started finally at 3 O’clock. Many Members are to speak on it. Shan- SHRT NTRMAL KANTI CHAT- karanandji has already spoken for TERJEE (EKimdum): In his three- 20 minutes and he will take some hour spccch your leader opposed it more time. As such if you all wish We know that not all of you share to speak on it, interruptions should his views, but that is a different be avoided. You can express your matter.. .{Interruptions) views later on... .{Interruptions)...... SHRI KHEMCHANDBHAI SO- \ English] MABHAI CHAVDA (Patan): Yes- terday, the leader of the Congress DR. BIPLAB DASGUPTA (Cal- Party opposed the Mandal Commis- cutta South): Is it not true that on sion. This has come out in National 2nd Octobcr when a rally was orga- H erald...... {Interruptions) nised against reservations, the stu- dent wing of the Congress Party took MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Do an activc role in it and particularly not talk to each other. Mr. Shan- NSUT activists had been activc karanand, may I request you to ad- throughout the day during the dress the Chair; otherwise, you wijj demonstration? Can you deny this get responses that side. that the students wing of the Congress Party did in fact take pirf!...{Inter SHRI B. SHANKARANAND: ruptions) I again emphatically say that we are not opposed to the reservation for the MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER; Please backward classes... (Interruptions) take your seat. (Interruptions) SHRI HARI KISHORE SINGH: Your party or you? {Interruption) MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Please take your seat first. I am on my SHRI B. SHANKARANAND: legs. This is not a Question-Ans- The start to the anti-reservation agi- wer Hour. You cannot ask the tation came from the non-Congress Question and you cannot expect the ruled States and not from the Con- reply. Now, if you want to make gress ruled States. The Janata Dal any point you can make your point ruled States and BJP ruled States are while you are speaking. Please do opposed to the reservations. Con- not consume the tnne of the House fess is not opposed to the reserva- in this fashion because there are tions. Can they deny this? Has many other Members who want to your Prime Minister and your party speak. Please do help and coope- guts to say anything to the Chief rate. Ministers of Orissa and Gujarat. (Interruptions) AN HON. MEMBER; Jyoti BosuV MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Please sit down. By just getting up and S m i B. SHANKARANAND: talking to ofter Members, you are Jyoti Bosu is not under him. {Inter ruption) disturbing your own M«nber, Please realise fliis. You are not helping 125 Adjoummeiit Motion ASVINA 12.1912 {SAKA) against Govt's 126 PoUee tttrwities decision cm in daalbig with Mandal Commission student t^ta tim Report etc. your own Member. Pleaie keep ses here that they arc doing the grea- quiet. Please sit down. test ha.tm...(lmemiptiom). THE MINISTER OF FINANCE SHRI P. M. SAYEED (Laksha- (PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE): dweep): Why don’t you control him. Let him start speaking on his Ad> Sir? You are looking only at this joumment Motion. side. Whenever they are standing up and disturijimg him, you do not say anything to them. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Mr. Shankaranand, may I again request MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: This you to please address the Chair only. is unfair and you will not dictate from your seat. .. .(Interruptions) SHRI P. M. SAYEED: It is not SIJRI B. SHANKARANAND: dictation. Sir, but you should be fair. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I cannot afford to show disrespect to my friends on the MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: No other side..... (Interruptions). more of this kind. I have been asking the speaker just to address the Sir, who started the discussion? Who Chair. If he is not addressing the was responsible for the agitation of Qiair, I cannot help it. the students here? I do not think anybody except the Prime Minister? SHRI SONTOSH MOHAN DEV The decision he took on Mandal (Tripura West): These are last two Commission reservations for the back- days of the Ninth Lok Sabha. Why ward classcs was so suiprising that it are you getting angry. Sir? was surprising to his own colleagues. Now, 1 have a copy of text of Shri SHRI B. SHANKARANAND: Devi Lai’s resignation letter with Sir, it is because of the style of the me... (Interruptions). He asked functioning of the Prime Minister that how...ilrtterruptions). The question he has taken everybody by surprise is that the. Prime Minister did not and created such devastation in the consult his own colleagues. BJP country that evecyone in this country leaders were telling that they were is looking at each other with suspi- not consulted and the leaders of the cion. The backward classes have CPI and CPI(M) were telling that lost sympathy of others. I am warn- they were not consulted. We only ing the backward classes’ leaders and said diat this loss of life and property others that the backward classes have could have been saved had the Prime lost sympathy of others. The imple- Minister taken everybody into confi- mentation needs sympathy ft-om the dence, bad he tried to bring about a others who are there to implement sort of consensus and then done the them. The Constitutional Rights are same thing. He has done the greatest there but the implementation machi- loss to the backward classes, this is nery is not there. You caimot imple- my challenge, because evetyone In ment them simply by writing in the thk country, the non [Sh. B. Shankaranandl sympathy and consultation, they would not have lost anything. Only 3,000 castes jobs in the Government? lu fight with Mr. Devi Lai you brought And what has the Prime Minister this with the intention of helping given to the backward classes? He backward classes. That every one is fooline the backward classes. He knows. And Mr. Devi Lai himself says: 27 per cent reservation for said that “this is how you have brought the 52 per cent backward classes only it.” I have got a letter here. I in Central Government jobs and in will just read two lines of his letter. public undertakings”. He says he (Interruptions). Mr. Devi Lai has has not said anything about the pro- written a letter to Mr. Bommai and motions. He says, the States are free here he says: to implement their own reservations. He says, he has not touched the edu- 'The announcement on the accep- cational institutions. Then what tance of the recommendations on have you given to the backward clas- August 7 was an abortive attempt ses? You have given the backward to scuttle the chances of the success classes the anger of other people who of August 9 rally at Boat Club.” are there to implement the reserva- t ons. That is what you have given. You have submitted the backward TTiis is what Mr, Devi Lai said. The classes to the mercy of the forward supporting parties say that they were class people who are there to imple- not consulted. I pity them, I sym- ment the recommendations in every pathise with them. {Interruptions^^ walk of life. Now you have no courage to tell your own Janata Dal DR. SHATLENDRANATH SHRI- niled States where the schools are VASTAVA (Patna): You say what burning, the trains are burning, the you want to say, but not what others buses are burning, the students are say. (Interruptions). Hving up their lives, arc committing ‘^uiicide. What have you given to the backward classes? And you say they SHRT B. SHANKAR ANAND: have not understood what you want 1 could have very well understood that TO say. The Prime Minister says if the Prime Minister had appointed THE MINISTER OF STATE IN [English] THE MINISTRY OF EXTERNAL AFFAIRS (SHRl HARl KISHORE SHRl B. SHANKARANAND; Mr. SINGH): What is that you do not Deputy Speaker, Sir, the hon. Lady want to say, let us hear. Member will not understand it and I sympathise with her. SHRI B. SHANKARANAND: The decision-making o£ the Prime Minis- [Tfcifislathm] ter IS what has led this country to such a devastating situation today. KUMARI MAYAWATI: You should not say wrong things...... (/«- Now, Punjab is burning. There they icrmpiiom)..,. require police forces. I am told that You should properly 50 companies have been withdrawn think before speaking. You are de- faming the Scheduled Caste...... (Inter- from Punjab and they are now sent nipt ions} for his security arrangements, for educational institutions, specially more [English] in Delhi, and if I can say, some com- panies were sent for Rath Yatra SHRl B. SHANKARANAND: Wc arrangement there. This is what you thjiight that the stay order given by are doing. You have neglected Pun- I he Supreme Court would give some jab, you have neglected Kashmir, iciief. pnd It was meant to be a relief and you have set fire to the emotions to the Piime Mmlster himself, I under- of the backward classcs where they stand. But it did not happen because have taken up cudgles against the so- even after the stay order, the self- called upper classes. Can you give immolations and suicides are going sympathy and help the backward on in the educational institutions. On classes by dividing the population October 2nd I was there at Rajghat caste-wise? Harijans arc asking this and I saw the demonstrators who especially. Fortunately this did not camc in buses and trucks and trollies happen as far as the Scheduled Castes wielding big sticks in their hands as reservations are concerned. But let if they arc going to attack some people. not the Scheduled Castes Ministers in The Delhi people were so scared of your Ministry, in your Government, them. Even the police did not do be provoked. Let us not provoke the anything; what they did was, they Scheduled Castes because the Sche- deliberately did something. Only the duled Castes reservations are neces- Prime Minister should reply. There sary. The reservations for Scheduled is a total collapse of the law and order Castes and Scheduled Tribes are not machinery. Mr. Piime Minister, why at all disturbed. The Scheduled Castes is this happening? What have you and Scheduled Tribes need not be pro- done? h it not because of your do- voked as if their reservations are be- ing this is happening? Let him not mg affected, and that is how some indulge in this sort of power politics Ministers are doing, trying to create by trying to gain sympathy of the confusion and that is how some stu- backward classes without doing any- dents who belong to Scheduled Castes thing for them. If he had implement- ere also committing suicide. In Har- ed the other recommendations of the yana the entire Scheduled Castes com- Mandal Commission, perhaps the peo- munity, I am told, is in the grip of ple would have appreciated. He has fear. This is because.... (Interrup just closed the doors of the educa- tions). tional institutions and he has not given [trmsM on] any reservation in the educational ins- titutions. The Mandal Commission ^ KUMARI MAYAWATI (Bijnor): also recommends financial assistance You are defaming the Scheduled Caste to the backward classcs, but he has community...... (Jn(emfpti THE PRIME MINISTER (SHRI us and then help the Backward VISHWANATH PRATAP SING®: Classes. Otherwise, you will be fur- What is your position regarding this? ther plunging the country into tur- moil. SHRI B. SHANKARAN^D: We support it. We have done it in Cong- SHRI VISHWANATH PRATAP ress-ruled States. There is no agita- SINGH: You said we have to sit tion in Karnataka; there is no agita- regarding the Mandal Commission tion in Andhra Pradesh and there is recommendations. We have sat for no agitation in Tamil Nadu. Where- the last 10 years. {Interruptions). ever we have done, the same thing the Prime Minister could have done [Tran&latiOTi\ in northern States and peacefully he would have helped the Backward SHRI R. N. RAKESH (Chail): Qasses. We have done that; we have Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am on a been doing that and we intend to do point of order. While discussing the that. But you have don© exactly the Mandal Commission issue, the Prime opposite. I want to ask one question Minister had tokl in this Hous« when to the Prime Minister. Will you ask he was the Chief Minister of Uttar the Chief Minister of Orissa to fall Pradesh, he was made the Qiairmao in your line? If that is the policy of the backward community on the of your party, will you ask your own recommendation of Smt. Indira party ruled States to help the Back- Gandhi. He has misled this House ward Classes as it has been done in since he opposed the report of the Karnataka. Andhra Pradesh and Tamil Commission while he was the Chirf Mi- Nadu? {Interruptions) The States of nister and if^en Shri Shripat Mishra Himachal Pradesh and Madhya Pra- was the Chief Minister... desh are out of reach for him and tions)...... they do not listen to him. They are the back-seat drivers. They are sitting [En^isK], in the back and asking him to drive according to their desire. He has no MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: There power to touch them. This is what is no point of order. we know. He simply asked as to [Trandation\ what we have done and what we will be doing. You know what we have done because till yesterday you were MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Please with us. Please do not behave as take your seat because Shankaranandji if you have not known anything be- is speaking. cause you were in Congress till yester- (Interruptions) SHRI R. N. RAKESH: Secondly day. Now, everyone when Shri Shyam Sunder became the is asking for his resignation. I th o u ^t judge of...... he would have taken it very seriously and paved the way for smoother im- lE n ^ m plementation of the M ao^ Commis- sion Report on reservations for the MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: He is Backward Qasses. not yielding. Sir, the Mandal Conmiission Report SHRI B. SHANKARANAND: I does contain many mistakes. It is not will say the last point and then con- that one can fully impltnnent it. But clude. Because of the Pdme Kfini* the Backward Casses do deserve ster’s dismal failure to evolve evm a rnervations and for that we have to SMuUance of national conseimis. his sit together and hammer out solu- a^wreot contempt for his senior col- tions which are acceptable to all of leagues, and also fat tlw friee^y 133 Adfoumnent Motion ASVINA 12, 1912 (SAKA) Govt's decisiou on 134 Police atrocities in hfindal Comttlssion dealing with student Report etc. agitation against parties which are supporting him, his MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER; Allow utter disregard for his advisers openly me to say something. The time allot- and otherwise, his deliberate intention ted for this adjournment—motion is to gain political mileage even by harm- 3 hours. The Congress was given 51 ing the backward classes, he has lost minutes out of which 41 minutes were the Intimacy of ruling this country. being taken by Mr. Shankaianand. May 1 demand that he should resign Janata Dal has only 38 minutes; BJP immediately and pave the way for a has 22 minutes; CPM has 8 minutes: new leader? (Interruptions). CPI 4 minutes. .. SHRl VISHWANATH PRATAP SHRI SONTOSH MOHAN DEV: SINGH: May I ask the hon. What is the timing at your discretion? Member, Shri Shankaranandji, may [Sh. Samarendra Kandu] 16.00 hrs. Constitution has given under Article Mr. Deputy Speaker. Sir, how 340 and which Baba Saheb Ambedkar much they are telling; “we sup- has jiven but this minority govern- port it.” Nobody in the world, speci- ment -we do not make any fuss about fically nobody in India, the poor and it—^had the courage and the determina- the oppressed people of backward tion to implement that. classes will believe them now. \ ^ a t did Shri Rajiv Gandhi sjy during the discussion? Shri Rajiv Gandhi is not It would have been in the fitness of here. 1 was shocked to hear his two things that if they swear in the name interventions. He said that this would of Gandhi, if they really swear in the perpetuate casteism; the Janata Dal or name of Jawaharlal Nehru, they the Prime Minister is perpetuating a should come out openly and support- caste war. This is what he said.... ed it. (Interruptions). You have agreed. If you do not know, open up and do It is sickening that I have to tell some home-work and find it out. them that your leader championed it. Please read some good books. It has It is sickening for me to tell them that been said that because of casteism the that is our commitment in the nation- poor people belonging to the back- al freedom movement. The Constitu- ward classes had been subjected to a tion has not given it today nor is it lot of suffering, depredation both eco- that we have done it yesterday. It is nomically, socially and politically our commitment in the national free- This has been identified by the Mandal dom movement. It slightly twisted the Commission. By giving some protec- agreement with Gandhi and other tion to these people do you think that people and slightly twisted the whole the Prime Minister is whipping up a object of self-determination. The caste war? You are coming and sup- commitment made to the oppressed porting it. Then, Shri Rajiv Gandhi prople was that when we get power we said another thing. I was also there will give them a fair deal and we give at th It time when this suggestion was them justice and we give them equa- made. Shri Rajiv Gandhi said that lity. Having said that, we have been protection of Scheduled Castes and betraying them years after years. Then Scheduled Tribes was conceived before came a situation when we took up he came to politics. He is some- courage and made clear the whole thing different from his mother, from thing. Article 340 said that a Com- his dead father. Of course, he has the mission should identify the socially surname of Gandhi. Sometimes, he backward people. What the Commis- thinks that he is really the Mahatma sion has identified now? The essence Gandhi. But he must try to under- of the identification of the Commis- stand the reality. We have deviated sion is that some castes in India are far from the discussion. The discus* perpetually haves, are perpetually sion was about the suffering, about backward and are perpetually oppres- the people who are agitating and about sed by the haves. our young boys, students who arc self- immolating themselves. We are ex- tremely sorry for it. They are misled, l^ey are going in a different way. I fail to understand this basic thing. What can we do in this regard? This The Leader of the Party, my friend in is a national problem. When we con- the Opposition, and here Shri ^ankar- front this national problem, we must anand say that “We support. We sup- jointly show our concern. I have re- port it and we support it” ports that such studonts, such youft 137 Adjournmmt Motion ASVINA 12. 1912 (SAKA) against Govt.'s 138 Police atrocities decision on in dealing with -, Mandal Commission student agitation Report etc. have been brought and kerosene put Then again it is said: on their bodies. (Interruptions). “...a person cjught in a bank SHRI KALP NATH RAI (Ghosi); dacoity case was leading the agi- Do not t3ilk**...(ImerTupiions). tation in Patna, while a Congress- 1 ML A was reported to have sent MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: No. two bus loads of people to Moti- That word will not go on record. pur to indulge in arson.” (Interruptions) MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: You SHRI SAMARENDRA KUNDU: cannot quote like this. I am sorry to say that in this lawless action, the open hand of the Congress (I) Party was there. (Interruptions). SHRI SAMARENDRA KUNDU; It is not only that. I have the Press I have a clipping of the newspaper. clippings. I do not want to take much (Interruptions) of your time. The point is that the monopoly houses and Shri Rajiv SHRI SAMARENDRA KUNDU; Gandhi are together....(J/r/'crri/p/wras). Let us not take it casually. Some of Mr. Pialkhivala, who is representing our people also must be doing wrong. the Tata House, says that the Mandal I do not deny that. Let them enjoy Commission Report will perpetuate by what Shri Devi Lai says, drtier- casteism. You will find that on the mptions). Do we have a national per- theory of casteism. Shri Palkhivala and Shri Ra|iv Gandhi go together. spective or not? Do we have an ap- The money bag is also helping this proach or national consensus on such agitation. Our friends in Ihe Opposi- issues or not? We must go towards tion would not agree. But I will read that direction and try to achieve it. If there is arson, if there is loot, if there out the relevant portion. I will read (Interrup a note. What happened in Bihar? is killing, will they join it? tions). (Interruptions) SHRI SAMARENDRA KUNDU: PROF. P. J. KURIEN (Maveli- Till that time, you did not know what kara): Sir. he has made baseless al- is happening. The earth under your legations. (Irtterruptions) feet is slipping. (Interruptions). SHRT SAMARENDRA KUNDU; MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Please I quote from a press clipping. It conclude. You have taken fifteen says; minutes. “OflScial sources today claimed SHRI SAMARENDRA KUNDU: that a person whose coal dump Therefore. I make an appeal to give licence had been cancelled, a all your suggestions about how best mukhia who had been forced to you want to implement the recom- surrender the earthquake relief mendations of the Mandal Commis- money misappropriated by him sion. (Interruptions). and a contractor who had been caught using substandard mate- [Translation] rials had incited violence at Jhanj- harpur because thev had an axe SHRI MADAN LAL KHURANA to grind against the local sub- (South Delhi): Mr. Deputy Speaker, divisional officer.” Sir, we are discussing this issue when ** Expunged as or [Sh. Madan Lai Khurana] gress should prove it by producing its manifesto in the House. the situation has become very serious. The situation is explosive and sensi- Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I shall tive. It will not be an exaggeration if read it out from the manifesto of Bha* I say that incidents of self immolation ratiya Janata Party: were heard in South India but in the post independence period cases of ‘'Reservation Policy—in the opinion self immolation in North India have of the Bharatiya Janata Party, there come into focus for the first time. As must be an unbiased discussion with regards, the elements behind such acts. an open mind on the reservation issue. I shall talk about it later. But I am The Party proposes the following three not prepared to accept that any poli- recommendations for this purpose: — tical party is inciting these acts of self immolation which have claimed the 1. The reservation for the Sche- lives of children in the age group of duled Castes and the Scheduled 18, 16 land 14 years The Govern- Tribes should be continued as ment has no proof that any political usual. party is behind these acts of self im- molation. 1 understand that they are 2. In brief, the reservation for the immolating themselves because they other backward classes also on have developed this pessimistic view the basis of the Mandal Com- in their minds that their future is to- m\ssion Report should be pro- tally diark. Sir, right from the begin- vided but priority should be ning we have been reiterating that there given to the most backward should have been a discussion on this people among them. issue. So that a consensus may be arrived at. If that was done, perhaps 3. Since poverty is an important the things would have been different.,. factor for the backwardness, (Interruptions)..Mr, Deputy Spe'iker, the reservation for the other Sir, they should first think before sup- castes also on the basis of their pressing our voice that our party is an economic conditions should be ally of the party in power. provided." [ImerruptionS), There is definitely some thing wrong 1 want to make it clear that nobody which has hurt the psyche of the will object to the economic based re- youth and that is why they are taking servation, but if it is done on the basis such drastic steps. Now it is neces- of religion it would not give good sary to find out the ways as to how result. If the Government would have these youths can be miade understand, consulted its ally parties, some amic- so that they may withdraw their agita- able solution of this issue could have tion. It is the duty of a democratic been found. For example Karpoori country to provide special facilities Thakur formula could have been for the backward classes. We have adopted. Shri Karpoori Thakur was demanded it. Sir, like Con'^ress this one of the greatest leaders of the back- is not the first time but right from the ward classes. When he was Chief beginning we arc pursuing the same Minister of Bihar he prepared a policy. After a very careful conside- formula. He was of the opinion that ration, Bharatiya Janata Party has nriority should be given to the most formulated the Reservation Policy and backward classes among the other IrtCCrporated it in its mianifesto. At backward classes in Bihar. He imple- that time, the leaders of the Congress mented this formula by giving Job- Party has said that they had mention- reservation about 8 per cent to the ed it in their manifesto. I would like backw»3rd classes, 12 per cent to the to urge upon them if it is so, the Con- most backward classes, 14 per cent to 141 A^9oumment Motion ASVINA 12,1912 (SAKA) Govt.'s decision on 142 Police atrocities in Mandal Commission decking with student Report etc. agitation against tbe Scheduled Castes. 10 per cent to support. They gherao and demonstrate the Scheduled Tribes, 3 per cent to the against BJ.P. only because in Delhi women and 3 per coit to the economi- the Congress has real tussel with cally backward classes. B.J.P. only, not with the C.P.I. and the C.P.M. I am not in favour of such On this basis, a consensus could demonstrations against one another have been arrived at on this issue. in the offices. If it is so...... {Intermp- {Interruptions). My party lead«^ tion^ suggested that the issue should be deferred for some time. I do not want THE MINISTER OF FINANCE to go into the old hist(^. {Intermp- (PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE): tions). In such a critical situation against C.P.M. in Calcutta. one can neither support it nor oppose it. At this moment it is very difficult SHRI PRAKASH KOKO to choose one way between the two. BRAHMBHATT (Baroda): And But there is a mid-way also between against us in Baroda. {Interruptions) the aforesaid two ways. So. in the present circumstances, instead of choosing either way we will have to SHRI MADAN DAL KHUR- adopt a mid-way to defend our coun- ANA: Had there been only the in- try from being it disintegrated and nocent students behind all Ais. they disunited over this issue. would have demonstrated against all the supporting parties but Aeir con- stant aiming at B.J.P. only clearly Secondly, I would like to comment shows...... {InterruptUmif). It is clearly on the way the agitation was con- against the ethics. I want to say ducted. Even I may name those that they will not be able to win us very persons who took liberty from by playing such games. We have this agitation. In the begmning, of faced you earlier and we will do so course, the agitation was purely of further as well. If you have courage, frustrated students but afterwards the you should come out to face elec- way the Congress for its political tions in Delhi. benefit...... {Interruptions) I and Shri Advaniji were the first to see a youth in the hospital and what hap- Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, an in- pened with us. The same incident quipr should be conducted in regard would not have taken place with to inflammatory ' speech delivered by Shri K. K. Hwari or other M.Ps. of Shri Tikait on 2 October in Delhi. «fhe Congress whatever happmed with us there. As far as the incident At last I want to say two things. of tearing our clothes by agitated Firstly, all the violent incidents espe- youths who were present there is con- cially occurred on the 2nd October cerned, can be taken as their act of should be enquired into a Sui^eme frustration but the incident of break- Court Judge. Secondly, I request the ing my .gold-chain from my neck Government to use this stay-period in cleariy shows that there were some creating a peaceful atmosphere for professionals behind the scene. calling a Round Table Conference in which the students, youths. vice [Sh. Madanl Lai Khurana] first opportunity of repudiating his leader and expressing his full-throated they are our own children. Taking full approval for the Mandal Conmiis- advantage from this golden opportu- sion’s recommendations. That is why nity provided by the Supreme Court’s he had to avoid the subject-matter of stay order, you should find some way the adjournment motion. to solve this problem. As I have already stated that the mid-way is the only It is a matter of great anguish and alternative to solve the problem. Now sorrow for us and for everybody, I I conclude my submission. {Interrup am sure, in view of the incidents tto t tions) are taking place. Our young boys are self-immolating themselves. Incidents [ErtgUsh] like that are happening. It seems now SHRI SHIKIHO SEMA (Naga- even anti-socials are taking advantage land) : Sir, I would like to know what of an agitation which had been start- is the BJP’s official stand today on ed by the students. Almost crimina- this? They should express it now^ lisation of this so-called movement is {Interruptions) taking place. And what happened on the 2nd of October in the capital of [Translation] India should be an eye-opener to everybody. I earnestly appeal to the SHRI VISHWANATH PRATAP students and those who are connected SINGH: Sir. the Government favours with their movement that they should the suggestion given by Shri Khurana understand and realise how a move- regarding holding a meeting of the ment which they had started—may youth, Vice-Chancellors, Social-wor- be rightly or wrongly—^is being high- kers and different parties. We shall jacked by anti-social elements and implement it very soon. It is cor- criminal elements. Today, a comple- rect that all of us should feel our tely different direction is being given. responsibility towards the youths. We We wonder how openly in the capital cannot ignore our younger genera- of this country somebody could say: tion. ""Gherao the MPs and MLAs who are supporting the Mandal Commission’s [English] recommendations. Douse them with kerosene and bum them alive.” (In- SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE terruptions) This is how passions are (Bolpur): Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I being sought to be roused deliberately. welcome the Prime Minister’s state- ment, made just now, that the Govern- So far as my party is concerned, ment is eager and will start dialogue with students, teachers, Vice-Chance- we have supt>orted the recommenda- llors and others concerned to find a tions of the Mandal Commission. We have supported the Prime Minister's way out of the present difficulties that {Interruptions) have been faced by the country in announcement. the context of the Mandal Commission recommendations. SHRI VAKKOM PURUSHOTHA- MAN (Alleppey): Why have you not Sir, I was waiting to hear Mr. Shan- imnlemented in West Bengal? {Inter^ karanand’s observations about the sub- ruptions) ject matter of the Adioumment Motion. But he scrupulously avoid- SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE: ed that. Probably he had no control. Sir, the Coni?ress Government sat over Naturally he had no control over his the report for ten years although the leader who had subjected us to a Mandal Commission’s recommenda- three-hour rigmarole the other day tions were discussed twice on the and Mr. Shankaranand has taken the floor of the House. No step was 145 Adjournment Motion ASVINA 12,1912 {SAKA) Covt.'s decision on 146 Police atrocities in Mandal Commission dealing with student Report ttc> agitation against taken by the then Congress Govern- SHRI DAU DAYAL JOSHI ment ahhough assurances had been (Kota): The members of N.S.U.L given by the then Home Ministers took a decision of committing self- that they are looking into it and immolation. Would the Congress (I) some action would be taken, {Imer- men be pleased to state as to which ruptions). We have also expressed party this N.S.U.L belongs to? Every- some reservations that we have in this one knows that the N.S.U.L is the regard. We have said, we would have National Student Organisation of the preferred a prior discussion and dia- Congress Party. They have tried to logue in greater detail so that a more commit suicide through self-immolat- acceptable solution could have been ing. They made a declaration of found out, so that the interested and self-immolation...... ilruerruptions)^.. designing parties would not have taken advantage of this. Today, it is [English] very clear as to who took part on the 2nd October in these disturbances. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Please {Inienupticm). Did the students’ sit down. wing of the Congress Party take part or not? {Interruptions), (Interruptions) SHRI SONTOSH MOHAN DEV SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE: (Tripura West): It is a white lie. Sir, if the inquiry finds that they are (InterrupiionsY not responsible, they would be exo- nerated. Why are they worried? I don’t SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE: know as to why are they afraid of I hope. Sir, the role of these people facing an inquiry. (Interruptions)^ who are indulging in double stand- ards—the Congress Party, v\'ho are in- SHRI SONTOSH MOHAN DEV: dulging in double standards—^will be We are not afraid. You become the thoroughly exposed by a proper in- Chairman of that Inquiry Committee. quiry that should be held into the in- (Interruptions). cidents of 2nd October, 1990. {Inter- ruptions). SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE: PROF. P. J. KURIEN (Mavelikara): I am sure that every section of the Sir, liic Congress Party have never ad- House is deeply concerned about this vocated violence. {Imerruptions), We matter. We are really hurt when the are always against violence. {Iruerrup- life of any student or anybody in this tions). We never took to violence. country is lost in the manner that is (Interruptions), It is the Marxists who being done. Naturally, we are very (Interruptions). very unhappy and these days, we are indulge in violence. in deep anguish. But I would like to know as to whether the students SHRI MADAN LAL KHURANA: for whom we have the greatest affec- Who is Kartar Singh? (Interruptions) tion, have really ascertained the scope of the Mandal Commission Report [Transition] and its recommendations or not. I do not know whether even the parents SHRI HARISH RAWAT (Almora): are aware of this or not. I cannot Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the one- but observe Sir that in this case, the fouxth of Ae members of the student role would have been ve^ usefully forum of the Mandal CommiRsion be- played by the media to inform the long to the Communist Party of India people of this country to give the and the CP.M ...... (Interruptions).,. picture of both the sides as to what 1'47 A4fourmient Motion OCTOBER 4,1990 G ovt's decision on 148 Police atrocities in Mandal Conunission dealing with student Report etc. agitation against [Sh. Somnath Chatteijee] There are diflterences am [Sb. Indrajit Gupta] So, Sir, I also feel that principally only one item of Mandal Commission really agonising to find these young recommendation has been accepted boys and girls going to the limit of and announced by the Government, talung their own lives for what I don't and that has led to so much loss erf know. I am quite sure that the over- life; so much loss of property. It has whelming majority of these young created so much frenzy. He says that boys and gvls do not know what is because of this decision, the backward actuaUy contained cither in the Man- dal Commission recommendation or classes have lost the sympathy of the in the Government’s decision or for people. Was there much sympathy that matter in certain articles of the before that? Who had sympathy for Constitution. If we could sit and talk them? The upper class people who to them in a peaceful atmosphere we were enjoying all the unspoken, un- would know how much they have written, undeclared reservation, in their own favours all these years had any actually been able to understand; what are the implications of this deci- sympathy for them that I want to know. What sympathy did they Mve? sion and declaration. Nobody has But one thing only has been accepted tried to educate them. My main and that is that in the Central Gov- criticism against the Government is that during this period-after they took ernment jobs. Central Government services, including the Central Public the decision, the decision which my Sector, there this 27 per cent reserva- party whole-heartedly welcomed—they tion for the backward classes has’ been should have used all the means at ensured. It is not as though, the their disposal, the media, the Press, whole world has .suddenly collapsed, the Radio, the T.V. Every day they as though all the boys and girls are should have tried to explain in detail only to get jobs in the Central Gov- to the people of the country what ernment services. Is it possible in our exactly is meant by this decision; how country? Is it feasible? How many much is in it and how much is not in Central Government jobs are vacant it; what is really there and what is be- every year? I want to know this. Let ing imagined. It was not done, and that some data be collected. Let some has helped I think in a way to play responsible agency collect the proper into the hands of those people who data, figures and everything and edu- wanted to mislead, insxigate and in- cate people on that basis. People are cite these young people. These young behaving as though everybody would people started agitating thinking that have got a Central Government job something has happened which was but for this thing that this wicked actually not there. Government has done. How many people get jobs in the Central Ser- Mr. Shankaranand says that actu- vices now-a-days where recruitment is ally the Prime Minister has given also stopped for the last four or five nothing to the backward classes. Then, years? In Class I and Cla.ss II jobs, if nothing has been given to them, how many people get jobs every year why all this hullabaloo and why all or can get jobs? But the whole' di- this pandemonium by the upper class mension of the thing has been blown people? If nothing has been given out of pro^rtion. The State Govern- then why all this commotion has ment ^ministrative services are not taken place? Crores and crores of covered. They have got their own public property has been destroyed. formula for reservation and it has Whole rakes of railway trains have been going on for years together. been destroyed. Whole rakes not one Even from the British days in some or two carriages—^have been burnt. I ca.ses it is going on. In the case of don’t think that these young boys Kerala and all these ^ ces. this reser- and girls have done it. Somebody vation policy is going on for long te- else has done it. 153 A^ounment Motion f ^ V W \ \ l ,m i { S A K A ) Govt's ikcision on IS* Police atrocities in Mandal Commission dealing with student Report etc. agitation against fore even independence. So. they are Banerjee. Their goondas have beatm not affected. The educational ins- Ms. Mamata Banerjee. At that time, titutions have been left out. All the he did not say anything. It all hap- boys who are thinking of engineering pened in public. They have no r i ^ t colleges and medical colleges, proba- to say so. bly still think that now they won’t be able to get admissions to these col- (Interruptions) leges because of the policy declared by the Government. But it is not a MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Let fact. They have been excluded. The us understand that the Members have armed forces have been excluded. All been expressing their views on the science, technology, nuclear energy, floor of the House. If other Mem- atomic energy institutions have all bers do not agree or if other Mem- been excluded. Promotions have been bers do not feel that what they are excluded. In that sense, if Mr. Shan- saying is not correct, then in their karanand wants to say that the Man- speeches, they can certainly oppose dal Commission’s recommendations it. should have been accepted and imple- mented in toto then only he will feel (Interruptions) that the backward classes have got justice... SHRI SONTOSH MOHAN DEV: There is a limit for sycophancy by AN HON. MEMBER: We want that party. (Interruptions) that. SHRI INDRAJIT GUPTA; I have SHRT INDRAJTT GUPTA. You got only four minutes. Please sit want that. With this little thing, you down. (Interruptions) I am not yield- have burnt so many trains and (Interruptions) buses...... ing. SHRI SONTOSH MOHAN DEV: PRF. P.J. KURIEN: Allegations Who have done that? You have done should not be made without prior that. What is this? How can he say permission. (Interruptions) that we have burnt them? He has to prove that. A senior Member like SHRI SONTOSH MOHAN DEV: him is saying that “We have burnt Not a single speaker here has con- them”. Let him prove it. This is very demned the Delhi Police. (Interrup bad. You are making a mockery of tions) Parliament. Sir, they are killing people in West Bengal. How can he say MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Some that we are party to it? (Interrup of you can do that now. tions) (Interruptiom) SHRI INDRAJIT GUPTA: There is a way of talking. When you say SHRI INDRAJIT GUPTA: We that you have done it. it does not are not discussing Tripura here. I can mean ‘him’. (Interruptions) assure you that I am not going to get provoked by Mr. Sontosh Mohan SHRI SONTOSH MOHAN DEV: Dev. (Interruptions). There is a time- He meant our party. These are the honoured convention in this House parties which kill people. {Interrup that names—Sir. I want you to hear tions) this--that people who are not present in the House should not be named, PROF. P. J. KURTEN: Mr. Indra- or should not be accused... jit Gupta, our party has not done it. tions) Therefore, I am not mentkm- SHRI SONTOSH MOHAN DEV: tng names. I could mention namas. They wanted to kill Ms. Mamat^ There are lists of names with us. ^ 155 Adfommenl Motion OCTOBER 4,1990 Govt/s decision on 136 Police atrocities in Mandal Commission dealing vith s t u ^ t Report etc. agitation against ra . Indrajit Gupta] suffering from some tremendous emotional provocation. Otherwise he people were seen actively on the cannot do it, he cannot do a thing streets instigating these boys and like that. It means t ^ actually. Aey girls... have not understood, or they have deliberately been misled, what is ac- SHRI SONTOSH MOHAN DEV: tually meant by the decision the What is your Police doing? VVhy not Government has talran. which Mr. •nest them? Shankaranand has summed up very SHRI INDRAJIT GUPTA: I mean people who were distributing money. S who were distributing food, who were !.?, 5 ^?, ^ sending lunch packets, preparing lun- ^1 this pandemonium? {Interruptton^ oh packets—shall I name those peo- ‘ nothin^ fhat pie—I do not want to break that ?hlv tnli convention—people who have printed E t s T V P l i S h is J Wg posters, who have printed stickcrs for ^ putting on the windshields of the * inotor car saying: ‘Don’t blame me; I nlf thoL actually the thing is not that. rr backward Masses people-although it is a small mptionS) We know who did all this, forward—feel that at last some ‘5.°“ \ justice is going to be done to them, will not mention them. (Interruptions) they are going to have some SHRI ANBARASU ERA: It is share, however small, in the Admi- BJP; your own people. nistration. SHRI INDRAJIT GUPTA: I am And that is why the other side is not mentioning any party. It may be so angry because they do not want BJP; it may be you. {Interruptions) this to happen. Let me tell my friends All I am saying is that all this rum- that the people of backward classes pus that took place, as we said, was have begun to ask: are we not Indi- unfortunate. Buses can be replaced, ans? Do we not belong to this coun- and trains can ako be replaced, tho* try? Are we not part of the Indian ugh at a very big cost to the eco- people that some concessions are nomy. But those lives cannot be re- made for us after so many years and placed, lives of these young boys and immediately this violence is created girls, youngesters who have commit- by burning of buses, burning of trains, ted suicide in one form or the other, looting of shops, shooting and all I am reminded only of that time in vinHs of things. Why? Are we not Tamil Nadu some years ago when part of this country? Are we not en- there was a big agitation against titled ako to get some concessions? Hindi (Interruptions) and a number ,ve not entitled to feel that our of people burnt themselves, immolat- own people will have a share in the ed themselves. In some other coun- administration? Is it such a big crime tries, we learn of Buddhist monks vve have committed that everybody pouring petrol on themselves and should come down on us like this? burning tiiemselves for some {votest piease be patient; please be reason- that fliey wanted to raise. It is for able, the first time in our country that we have seen fliis phenomenon, and I Even on the 3rd of September when understand very well that any boy the first all-party meeting was who cold-bloodedly can pour and held upstairs here in this build- petrol on himself and set on fire, must ing, on that day, everybody said, and 157 A^unment Motion AA\JHh,\%\9\2iSAKA) Govt*s decision on 158 Police atrocities in Mandat Commission dealing with student Report etc. agitation against the Prime Minister said and all the that and set fire even to the water leaders of all the parties advised t^ t tanker which was sent to the Boat a dialogue should be started with ^ Club to provide them with water; students. But whom to talk to? Who they also extorted money from peo- is the leader? It is a leaderless move- ple. If this movement had gone on ment: a movement which has no for a few days more. I do not know identifiable leader, a disorganised where it would have taken us. It is movement. Who should be called? utter vandalism and criminal behavi- Who should bo talked to? And then our and nothing else. I want that the they took a stand through a state- students should demarcate themselves ment issued in the Press that they from this kind of hooliganism. We were not going to talk at all until do not want the students and the this Mandal Commission’s decision youths to fall into the hands of these was withdrawn. It means that the types of people. Therefore, we ap- Prime Minister must resign; it means peal to them—we are extremely sorty that the Prime Minister should go; for what has happened; really we are it means that the policy decision v.’hich anguished by these acts of self-im- he ha.s taken must also go. T know molation—^we appeal to the young that was the game. So, we can never boys and girls to give up this path. accept that position. (Interruptions) This is not going to solve any pro- But that does not mean that he must blem. Ultimately, if you want to resign and this policy must be with- solve this problem, how reser\'ations drawn. Unnecessarily, futilely so much are to be done and all that, you have damage has been done. And the to bit down across the table and talk climax o( the whole thing is. as others to each other in a civilized way. You have said, that it was going to be a cannot go on like this. Therefore, I bit longer. Suppose the Supreme Court do hope that the whole atmosphere stay order had not come. They say will now calm down and everybody that it has saved the Prime Minister. will cooperate in contributing to that, Suppose it had not come. We saw on exerting all their efforts to see that the 2nd October what was going to passions are cooled down. The real happen to this movement. Tt would situation should be explained patien- have been continued for a few days tly to everybody. We sit down and more. Suppose no .stay order had talk. There is a plenty of scope for come. The agitation would have talking, of course, about the modali- gone on. ties. What is that we are complain- ing: that we have not been consulted; about what? About the policy? About AN HON. MEMBER: Tt is still the principle? Not that at all. We said going on. I still feel, that we should have been consulted about the detailed modali- SHRT INDRAJIT GUPTA: But ties and the procedure with regard now it cannot go on in the old way. to its implementation. But. anyway, You saw what had happened on the the Prime Minister has his own rea- 2nd October. A movement like this sons. He said, there is no need for which has no clear idea what they consultation because diis is the same were fighting for, who do not under- thing which has been announced se- stand what has actually been done, veral times. 1 would have preferred who have no leadership, would have if he had made this announcement gone into the hands of these people. after the 30A of October. 1990. You I do not know who were they. There cannot take so many things on to may be anybody. I do not know your plate and try to digest all of the who came to Delhi, tooted the shops simultaneously. There is something of small shojdceepers who were selling eatables, broke so many windowpanes. going on there. Every day news of panes of houses and vehicles and all new communal outbreaks is ctnniflg. II—1 LSS/ND/il 159 Adjournment Motion OCTOBER 4, m o against Govt*s 160 Police atrocities deciston on in dealing with Mandal Commission student agitation Report etc. [Sh. Indrajil Gupta] should withdraw it or the House will It has happened in Ghazipur. it hap- reject it. There is no other way out. pened in Gonda, it happened in Udai- l«-5« hrs. [DR. THAMBI DURAI pur, it happened in Pali, it happened in the Chair] in Baroda in Gujarat and it was go- ing to take place in Mahem in Bom- bay. Somehow it was prevented. Now, SHRl KAMAL NATH (Chhind- every day this will go on. leading up wara): Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. 1 to some climax on the 30th of Octo- have heard with rapt attention ber. It is a major crisis for the whole Mr. Khurana’s speech, Mr. Kundu*s country. And at the same time we speech, honourable Mr. Somnath have to handle that and we handle Chatterjee’s speech and Shri Indrajit this also. Gupta's speech. I would have preferred it—with all What is the spectacle we are seeing due rejipect to the Prime Minister— in the whole country? Sir, what is if it has been possible to deal with the spectacle we are seeing in the these problems one at a time, not try country across our national landsca- to deal with all of them together, pe? In the last three weeks we specially in a country like ours. I am have seen immolations, we have seen leaving out of this Kashmir and Pun- deaths by police firing, we have seen jab and all these things. Thev are schools, colleges and roads closed, always there. we have seen Punjab and Kashmir So, Sir, I would request Mr. Shan- burning, we have seen the North- karanand to ponder over his Motion East in turmoil and now we are and not to insist or press it or any- seeing communal flare-up as just men- thing. It will be defeated in any case, tioned by Shri Indrajit Gupta in but it is better that he realises that Gonda, and in Udaipur. This is the it is a mis-directed Motion altogether. spectacle we are seeing in the coun- He tries to chide the real point. He try. ssays only the superficial things, how many buses were burnt, how many SHRI INDRAIIT GUPTA: We lives were lost, how many bullets have seen it earlier also. were fired - all deplorable things, I agree. Rut these are the only rut- SHRI KAMAL NATH: This ward symptoms of something that Motion which has been brought about was happening inside the minds of by Shri Shankaranand. reflects and the people. And those thin^rs were echoes the voice of the people and misguided, uninformed, ill-informed, their anguish. There is a volcano out of ignorance people doing things which is going to burst and if we do which they imagined, with no reality not realise this, this volcano will burst at all. And it is the dutv of all of and smash to smithereens the policies us. We call ourselves Members of of this Government. Parliament, we are Members of Par- liament; surely it is our job to ex- We must remember—and at the plain to the people what is the real onset 1 would like to make it very position and not to do things which clear- that we are supporting the re- only lend them on to more higher servations for the backward classes. levels of fren/v and which is not go- There should be no confusion on ing to solve any problem. this. It appears that there is some misgiving in the minds of the ruling Therefore, Sir, I do not think that party on this. there is any place here at i'll for Mr. Shankaranand’s Motion. It is a to- SHRI VISHWANATH PRATAP tally misdirected thing and either he SINGH: Yes, yes, there is. 161 A(ljQummni Motion ASVlNA 12^ 1912 (SAKA) ag;ainst 162 Police atrocities decision an in dealing with Mandal CommimQn student agitation Report etc. SHRl KAMAL NATH: It is be- which has such a glorious history?” yond their comprehension of what These remarks were made by him has been said. We do not blame when he was the champion of the them because many things are be- Congress Party, Sir. Now. he is try- yond their comprehension. What we ing to be the champion of the back- are opposed to is the manner in which ward classes. It is the Congress this was b ro u ^ t about. Ever since Parly which has been the champion the Prime Minister aniiounced this of the backward classes. And now on the 7th of August, there has been no matter which hat Mr. V. P. Singh stammering, frothing, jumbling and tries to wear, be it the Janata Dal, juggling whenever he meets different he cannot be the champion ol the cross-sections of the people. This backward classes. has been his problem and the Prime Minister did this as a populist mea- Sn\ this motion taiks about the sure. For us it is the ccmccin of the inaptitude of the Prime Minister, re- backward classes. It is a genuine ally in essence it talks about that. concern, it is not a populist measure. The events which led to the sad state It has been the policy of the Congress of affairs of the country are because Party for the last forty years and I of his inaptitude. Can we really will remind the Prime Minister just Xjxpect anything from him?...... now what he himself has said. (Intei mptions). Can we really expect anything from the leader of the House, the leader of the Ruling Party, who 17,00 his. has on various occasions made various statements? When he resigned as Sir, the reservation for backward Defence Minister, he said: “I will never classes has been the policy of the contest any elections/' Then be said, Congress Government, of the Con- ‘*1 will never contest lor an elected gress Party for the last forty years. post.” Then he said. “1 will not be There is nothing new in it. In Southern Prime Minister and I shall be a disas- States, it was brought about by the ter.” in his jfirst Press conference, Congress Party. But we are t>pposed when he was asked this question, he to tlie method and the manner in said: "That ii> a danger or a risk which it was done on 7th August. this country has got to lake." Now This has caused, as Shri Shankaranand we are being subjected to that danjper has said, a caste-war in the country. and to that risk. He had prophesjcd Wo have to look back on the events that he will be a disaster. He has al- that took place which led to the 7th ready been a disaster...... Xlnter^ August. What was the need and niptiom). necessity of such haste. When this Prime Mmister’s Government is sur- We have to ask ourselves as to why viving with BJP, CPI and CPl-M yet this situation has come about in the there was no consultation with them. country. Mr. Samarendra Kundu, Forget the Congress Party, there was who spoke first on this, did not men- no consultations with them. The tion anything about Orissa. What is Prime Minister is now trying to be the stand of his own party, which is the champion of the backward classes. the ruling party there, on reservation For many years, he tried to be the for backward classes in Orissa? He champion of the Congress Party also. has the guts to say that immolation is 1 will just draw the attention of this •instigiited and somebody oame and House to what he had said, not very poured petrol or kerosene on the stu- long ago. The Prime Minister, when dents. This is an in.sult, I think, to he was in the Congress Party, said: the sendments of those who tried to ‘T am proud of my Party. Is there immolate themselves out of misguided any othoT Party in the whole world emotional direction, Mr. Samarendra 163 A^ournment Motion OCTOBER4,1990 agamst Govt's 164 Police atrocities decision on in dealing with Mandal Commission student agitation Report etc. [Sh. Kama! Nath] Prime Minister could have immedia- tely opened a dialogue on the 9th of Kundu, Mr. Khurafla and Mr. Som- August itself or a week later. It was nath Chatterjee talked about the Con- only when the situation went out of gress hand on the 2nd of October hand, when emotions were surcharged, incident. Sir. the Delhi Police has when tlie ^ o p le were on the streets, said that armed people were brought when self-immolations were taking in from Haryana. Which is the ruliug place, that he decided to invite the party in Haryana? There arc pho> students for talks and they refused. tographs in the newspapers...... After firing, what role did the Gov- {Interruptiom)- Which is the ruling ernment media play in this? For the party in Haryana? And the Congress first fortnight there was no role. The is charged with this. Wherever any- Government media has a major role thing is going wrong in the countr) to play in this over the radio and it is the Congress hand that they television by telling the students that can only see. That is true be- they are being misguided and that cause they will see the Congress lund their apprehensions are incorrect. So only in the next election. this was total failure of tne Govern- Mr. Khurana- unfortunately he is ment. Now when the situation has not here—has talked of Congress gone out of hand, the Prime Minister instigation in his own constituency. Let has chosen to talk to the students. us not forget that there are only two Rather he deputed the President of Congress MPs from Delhi. The rest his Party. He devised a nice buffer are MPs from BJP. He is aspiring and everything is referred to the Pre- to be the Chief Minister of Delhi. sident of the Party. So this unfortu- But that is a different story. But nate trend has come about and now when he goes to his own con- the country is faced in a very major stituency, a constituency which he and serious problem concerning the claims to be the champion ot youth of the country. and where he proclaims all the people are with him, then he talks I would not like to take much ol of a contest in the maidan. We will your time. But 1 would just like to see him in the maidan and see what draw the attention to what Mr. Som- he is doing in the maidan. This time nath Chatterjee and Mr, Indrajit his shirt was pulled out. Next lime, Gupta have said. Both of them are his pant will be pulled down. very senior parliamentarians. I myself iiave aeen them hei« for the last This charge which is made consis- 11 years. But ever since. I think, the tently on the Congress is minimising Prime Minister has been inviting them the current situation. It is an attempt for dinner, they have been losing to deflect us from the situation which their sense of perception and their is prevailing outside. sen.se of judgment. 1 am sorry about We talk of the manner in which it it that just because they are invited was implemented. We also talk that by the Prime Minister for dinner, the students can be misguided. But their support is coming when even the Government had the media with not asked for. The CPM is jumping them. But first the Prime Minister sometimes even when the ruling party took the stand that he would not talk is not objecting. This motion re- to anybody. Immediately on announ- flects the voice, echoes and sentiments cement. it could have been antici- of the people. I know the Prime pated that there would be some mis- Minister will not vote for the ad- givings and people would be mis- journment motion. But he must re- guided. The media could have played member that his own wife when he a very constructive role on it. The was the Finance Minister, had- criti- cised hnn for fee rise in prices. I am 165 Adjournment Motion ASVINA 12,1912 (SAKA) against G on's 166 Police atrocities decision on in dealing with Mandal Conunission studenta agitation Report etc. sure that if she had to vote oa the my position clear that this reservation state of affairs in the country, she is merely a step towards the minimi- would vote for this motion. She sation of injustice which had been would not vote against him. 1 am not heaped upon a large segment of our saying that she would vote against society for ages together. This reser- her husband, but she would certainly vation—to speak the truth—is to en- vote against this Government. So 1 sure that no community in our coun- appeal to this House to use their try and in our society is deprived of conscicnce to understand what is its rightful place in the participative going on in the country, to see how democracy and administration. It is this volcano is going (o erupt and not concession. It is not cc'ncession support this motion ot adjournment. because it is a compensatory device to negate the disability imposed by SHRl CHITTA UASU (Barasat); the caste system in our country. Why 1 rise to oppose the Adjournment should a section of the people un- Motion moved by Shri B. Shankar- necessarily take a view as if this will anand. Before entering this subject, I lead to a caste war, as Mr, Vansant also like to express my deep sorrow, Sathe in this House was pleased to anguish and grave concern over the express. Castes were there. Castes are tragic events which have led to the there. Castes hatered is there. loss of several valuable lives. We also But, because of these decisions the deplore the tragic events which have caste hatered has automatically or led to self-immolation by several instantly born. This means the young men and women from our opposition for a particular section country. I think the entire House of society exclusively prove the will join me while 1 express our great caste hatered and it is also the duty sorrow and anguish for them. of all of us to remove and eradicate it. Coming to the issue ol the Adjourn- I am grateful to Shri B. Shankar- ment Motion, 1 think the issue is anand that he has sought to make not justification or otherwise of the the Congress (l)‘s position clear. He Mandal Commission's Report. We says, as far as I oould understand it, have expressed our views clearly that that the Congress Party is in favour we are in agreement with the Mandal of implementation of the Mandal Commissions Report, and the reser- Commission’s Report. Is it so? TTiey vations if any, relates only to the are not even clear. 1 only want to question of the modalities in the im- quote a letter written by Mr. Hanu- plementation of that. manthappa, a Member of the Con- gress (1) in the other House. He writes 1 do also take this oppi>r'.unity to re- a letter to the Congress President, the mind some people outside and some leader of the Opposition. I quote from people here also that the Constitution the letter. I quote fiom the letter Mr. enjoins upon us to render justice to Hanumanthappa wrote: the socially and educationally back- ward classes. Jt is the constitutional “Common man’s understanding is provision and we cannot just ignore that the National Front Govern- that. My charge against the Congress ment wants the reservation for (I) is that they did not give effect to the backward classes but Con- the Constitution obligation during gress and Mr. Rajiv Gandhi are the last twelve years. What is the opposed to it.” explanation? Some people feel that this reservation of twenty-seven per This is what has been written by Mr. cent for the backward classes is some K. Hanumanthappa. So, this confusion kind of a concession. I want to make you have created. It is one of yotu: 167 Adjournment Motion OCTOBER 4, 1990 against Govt's 168 Police atrocities decision on in dealing with Mandal Commission student agitation Report etc. [Sh. Chitta Basu] Lastly, I also want to say to the Members who has written to the Lea- Government that in a fit of frenzy, the der of the party that the Congress students in our country—I do not Party does not want the reservation know who they are, who their leaders for the backward classes uhereas the are—might have said that they are National Front Government wants it. not prepared to discuss with the And he holds Mr. Rajiv Gandhi res- Government, with the Prime Minister, ponsible, and we are all v'itness that unless some conditions are fulfilled. 1 think they might have said so in a he was filibustering for more than fit of frenzy. But as 1 told earlier three hours. Some good sense shculd prevail on you now. 1 thank Mr. in the All-party meeting, it is the Shankaranand that he has candidly responsibility of all of us to persu- said that he and his party -l do not ade, to convince, to educate the know about his party bui he has said younger generation of our country. it -are for the implementation of Therefore, I think there should be a^ Mandal Commission’s Report. I hope fresh attempt for commencing the dia-' that your parly will be persuaded by logue. him for the proper implementation of the Mandal Commission's Report. We should also make it clear to I have got one point by way of those who are opposing the reserva- criticism of the Government and that tion that it is necessary for us to is about the role of the media. You remove the injustice. We cannot will be astonished to learn that some afford to see that the social injustice time back 1 received an invitation continues for any more lime. And from the Television to give my views to remove the social injustice, there about the Mandal Commission's Re- should be a change of social attitude. port. They came and lold me that I ] am sorry that many of those who must finish my words within twi) are instigating the anti-reservation minutes. As a niatter of fact, 1 said movement, have not changed their that this was an issue on which I social attitude. By the phrase ‘social should give my views to the people. attitude’ 1 mean that this age-old in- It was two minutes tv\enty-tivc se- justice cannot be removed by having conds and they said I had to be re- a statuh (fuoist attitude. This reser- corded again because 1 had exceeded vation should not be taken as a con- the time by twenty-live seconds. Is cession. it should be rather accepted it the way to utilise the most impor- as a preferential discrimination, in tant media of our country which order to enable a larger segment of should educate our people? Therefore, our society to take part in the admi- 1 think the Prime Minister should nistration, to take part in the decision- take a note of it. What was ihe harm making process, to take part in the if various points of view were tele- governance of the country. It is notl cast for a longer period of time merely the question of 27,000 out of through T.V.? Then the people might a lakh Central Government jobs to have understood what is there in the be given to a certain segment of soci- Government’s notification, what is there ety, It is a question^of belonging to in the Mandal Commission’s Report, the Government, it is a sense of be- what ought to be done and what has longing through the participative de- not yet been done. Instead of that, mocracy, it is a sense of belonging that kind of attitude was shown to to Administration. From that point a person like me, to a Member of of view, we should say that time has Parliament belonging to a party. And come when we should do justice to it is expected that the party should those who have been neglected for ijive its views in a proper form, in a ages together and I hope that Mr. proper way, in an educative manner. Shankaranand will understand and I 6f) Adjournment Motim ASVINA 12, 1912 (SAKA) against Govt*s 170 Police atrocities decision on in dealing with Mandal Commission student agitation Report etc. will be persuaded by the wise coun- Therefore, this provision for reserva- sel in the House and will be pleased tion is further encouraging to us. to withdraw this adjournment motion With this kind of historical back- which means censuring of the Govern- ground, of reservations dating back ment, The Government does not de- to 1927, we are proud that we are the serve any censure on this issue. The forerunners of this concept of reser- Government deserves the support of vations. the entire House, not only of the entire House, but the entire people Sir, this motion brought by the outside and I would appeal to the Hon. Member Shri Shankaranand is National Front Government that it not against any political party. It is is the number which counts here, it not against the Janata Dal, or against is the countless people outside on the BJP or the CPl(M). whose faith and support you may be in power or you may not be in power. Sir, look at the gory happenings Therefore, you may rely on the around. 13 lives (Atmas) have gone, countless people outside rather than died. Who is responsible for this? on the number of Members here. A few Ministers in the Cabinet have by their speeches sought to divide the [Translation] society into ‘Anti-Mandal' and ‘Pro- Mandal*. Was it correct? Such spee- ♦SHRl KADAMBUR M. R. ches have not only divided the society MNARDHANAN(Tirunelveli): Hon. but have also poisoned the youth. Chairman, Sir, I rise to the adjourn- It is poisoning the minds of youngs- ment motion moved by the Hon. ters. The minds of the youngsters Member Shri B. Shankaranand on have been poisoned. behalf of the All India Anna DMK party. Hon. Member who just spoke be- fore mo rightly pointed out that such This reservation issue which the self-immolation deaths were very com- whole country is seized of today has mon in Tamil Nadu during the days been long back known to the people of Hindi agitation. For defending of Tamil Nadu during the times of the honour of the Tamil language, Periyar, Perarignar (The Enlightened) several party workers, not common- Anna and Puratchi Thalaivar (Leader men, sacrificed their lives by self- Revolutionary) MGR. immolation. That was for a cause. When Shri Anna was pained at this, he gave a call that *F withdraw the Tt was as old as the year 1927, agitation’. The agitation and self- even 2 years before T was bom. Now immolation deaths stopped immedi- I am 61. ately. We come from such a tradi- tion. Tamil Nadu where Periyar, and Perarignar (The Enlightened) Anna Sir, on September 14,1 think, on the who endeavoured along with Mahatma birth anniversary of Perarignar Anna, Gandhi to uplift the oppressed and Hon. Prime Minister Shri V. P. Singh the suppressed of the society has seen came to Madras and participated in 50% of reservation for backward the so called *Pentafest’. That func- classes during the time of Dr. MGR. tion was to commemorate the birth This issue of reservation is» therefore, anniversary day of Bharatidasan. not a new one to us. Kerala, Karna- Ambedkar, Perarignar Anna, Periyar taka, Andhra and Tamil Nadu arc and also to celebrate the victory of aware of reservations since 1927. the implementation of the Mandal "^Translation of the speech originally delivered in Tamil. 171 Adjournment Motion OCTOBER 4, 1990 against Govt's 172 Policc atrocities decision on in dealing with Mandat Commission student agitation Report etc. [Sh. M. R. Janardhananl Two responsible persons occupy high offices in your Government and Commission recommendations. This they gave a call for a caste war which was arranged by the Chief Minister to has gradually led to this kind of situa- reap poh*tical dividends. tion. T^ey have hurt the psyche of 1 submit to the Prime Minister, when the youth by their provocative spee- Northern India is burning against the ches. People especially the parents of Mandal Commission report* you are the poor children have started asked coming there to celebrate it. It may to whom they have voted. They have be proper for the Chief Minister of been pushed to this condition of con- Tamil Nadu, but it will not be proper ducting the post mortem of their vot- for the Prime Minister of India. That ing pattern. Who created this kind is my humble submission. of situation? Why I say this? During the Presi- I would like to ask the Hon. Prime dent’s Address this year, a member Minister a question. Why this agita- rose to intervene his address and tion at all? You started the agitation shouted that there was no mention in and you must attempt to stop it. In the Address of the Government’s inten- such a situation, you have started tion to implement the Mandal Com- telecasting appeals to the students. mission’s recommendations. Tt is Your appeals are really melting the customary that the President is heard minds. But by this time you must without interruption. That time the have understood the minds of the stu- Government was not concerned about dents. If you had understood the the implementation of the Mandal minds of the students, there is no Commission recommendations. But other go except to give way. You today, when Kashmir, Punjab and must abdicate the leadership in favour Assam are burning, you have brought of somebody. That is the first task it now. Is it the right time? You before the Prime Minister. That have not prepared the country, the would only lesolve the present crisis ground. You have not educated the the country is faced with. people through the media. For example, let me tell you. I Let me lastly reiterate the commit- come from a backward constituency. ment of my party, the All India Anna Who represented this constituency in Dravida Munnetra Kazhagam, to the 1967? A harijan Christian by name recommendations of the Mandal Com- Xavier. In 1971, a communist by mission and other steps towards the name Muruganandhan, a Hindu, was upHftment of the poor and the down- returned. During 1976-77, a Nadar by trodden. name Aruna was there. Sincc 1984, I am here. This proves that Tamil THE MINISTER OF STATE IN Nadu is above castes, above religions. THE MINISTRY OF EXTERNAL This is due to hardwork by Periyar AFFAIRS (SHRI HARI KISHORE and Anna, SINGH): Mr. Chairman, Sir, I thank The purpose of this debate is not you for giving me an opportunity to to accuse each other. When Shri speak on this serious issue. I also Indrajit Gupta spoke he was indirectly thank Shri Shankaranand for raising hitting at you. He said that you have this serious issue before the House and not prepared the country. You have urging the House to listen to him atten- not prepared the people to take it. tively. You have not educated the masses through the media. That was his con- So far as other hon. Members are tention. He, thus, blamed the Gov- concerned, all are sitting here to listen ernment. to him carefully and the Hon. Prime 173 Adjournment Motion ASVINA 12, \^\2(SA K A ) against Govt's 174 Fnlict 4itroeitl€S decision on in dealing with Mandal Commission student 4igitation Report etc. Minister and most of the senior Ca- port, the issue is being raised to ask binet Ministers are laiso present here, resignation of the Hon. Prime Mini- but I am surprised that the leader of ster. May I know whether the com- his own party is not present here to mon man cannot aspire to become the listen to his speech. It clearly shows Prime Minister of this country? Why how much importance his own party violence is errupting again and again and his party leader attach to his in the country in the name of Mandal speech on this issue. I was also think- Commission, who is instigating all ing las to why the Congress-I has this violence? Had you forgotten selected Shri Shankaranand to under- happenings of 1984? Ail sorts of take this job? 1 was surprised, be- things happened when Shri Rajiv cause if one is supporting the idea of Gandhi came to power. I remember providing social justice to the back- that time, when the then Home Mini- ward classes and providing encourage- ster Shri Narasimha Rao, for whom ment and special opportunities to 1 have great regard, announced on the them, Shri Shankaranand was not the doordarshan after 3 days that enough appropriate person to convey the views has been done. Was the riots in this of his party leader, who is creating city for 3 days were not enough? a lot of confusion in the entire coun- Thousands of people were killed and try. I know his views and T respect people were burnt alive, but even then him. T was also thinking avS to why Shri Gandhi, who was some how in- Shri Shankaranand is selected every- stalled as the Prime Minister no such (ime...... (Interruptions)... Sometime, thing had occurred at that time. To- ago. the Serials Mahabharat and Rama- day. the process of social justice has yana were telecast on the Doordarshan. just been started land now they are 1 saw that a king always remembered demanding the resignation of Hon. Lord Shankara. whenever he found Prime Minister. As Shri Indirajit said himself in irobule perhaps same is the that ai>ain the same people are instru- case with the leader of Congrcss-{I) mental behind all this violence. I party. The leader of that party always w(Hild als [Sh. Hari Kishore Singh] MR. CHAIRMAN: That is why I request the hon. Members to be vtry Today, on the suggestion of Shri brief and I want to take the SMise of Khuraoa. the Hon. Prime Minister has the House. aipreed to discuss the Mandal Com- mission Report. This is not for the first time, but earlier also, he had PROF. P. J. KURIEN: Many hon. given call to discuss this issue. What Members want to speak. So, I would will be left in the democracy, if the like the time to be extended so that xess of discussion is stopped? all those who want to speak can be Kere are lot of people, who only give allowed to speak. or take orders but discussions arc in- vited to keep the democratic process SOME HON. MEMBERS: No. alive. How the democracy can work, if on the invitation for discussion, the MR. CHAIRMAN: If you are all other party says that it will not take not agreeing. I request the hon. Mem- p m in the discussion. Today, we are bers to take one or two minutes to discussing the issue, it provides us put forth your points because the support and some way would be found Prime Minister has also to reply and out to solve the problem and this pro- after bis intervention. Shri B. Shankar- cess of social justice will take a con- anand has also to finally reply. crete shape. The tension created in Therefore, I humbly r^uest all the this respect would also be removed. hon. Members to be brief and to co- operate. I am sorry that some of our children and brothers had to bear sufferings PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE: owing to some wrong and right con- Why do you want to spoil the case by clusions. They have resorted to self more speeches? immolation. We sympathize with {Interruptions) them and it is the foremost duty of this House to give a unanimous call [T ramlationi to the country that no tension or agita- tion should be launched in regard to SHRI DAU DAYAL JOSHI the Mandal Commission and a deci- (Kota): All the Members of the sion will be taken through discussion. House have expressed their views. With these words, T urge my hon. Please listen to the hon. Minister, now. friend Shri Shankaranand to resoect ...{Interruptions)... the small step taken by the Hon. Prime Minister in reeard to the process of [EngUsh] social iustice in the country through Mandal Commission and to withdraw PROF. P. J. KURIEN: We want his motion. to speak. That is the point. I ap- peal to the Leader of the House. [English] ...(In1errttption.i)... MR. CHAIRMAN: May I request [Transfalicm] the hon. Members to be very brief because already we decided that this THE MINISTER OF STATE IN debate should conclude at 6 O’Clock? THE MINISTRY OF PARLIAMEN- I, therefore, request the hon. Members TARY AFFAIRS AND MINISTER to cooperate and to take only a few OF STATE IN THE MINISTRY OF minutes to make their points. TOURISM (SHRI SATYA PAL MALIK): Mr. Chairman. Sir. this PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE: issue had been discussed earlier also. Voting will be at 6 O’Clock sharp. Except for the Prime Minister, no one 177 Adjoufnment Motion ASVINA 12,1912 (SAKA) against Goft.'s 178 Foliee atrocities decision on IB dealing with Mandal Commiasion student (Citation Report etc. else would speak from this side. The [English] time can be extended for half-an*hour. if some more Members of the Opposi- MR. CHAIRMAN: Please listen tion want to say something. to me. Please take your seats. W ^ t I ain telling is. as the Parliamentaiv [English] Affairs Minister has suggested, we wifi extend the time by half-an-hour. MR. CHAIRMAN; Shall we ex- tend for Half-an-Hour?...... All right. we will extend the time for half-an- {Imerruptions) hour. The House will go on upto 6.30 p.m. today. SHRI MANDHATA SINGH (Lucknow): Mr. Chairman, Sir, I am ..I,...(Interruptions)...... on a point of order. When the De- puty-Speaker has already announced SEVERAL HON. MEMBERS: No. minute-wise time allocation for all the political groups represented here and ...... {Interruptions)...... when that time has been profitably used, the extension of the time for a [Trani'lation] debate can only be made with the general consensus of the House. So. SHRI DAU DAYAL JOSHl: AU my point of order is: Where is the the hon. Members of this House have need for wasting every single minute spoken on this issue. Everything now? We, therefore, request you to would become clear after the speech call on the Prime Minister to reply to of the Hon. Prime Minister. I think the debate. (Interruptions). that there is no justification now to extend the time. All the hon. Mem- bers of the Congress have expressed [Translation] their views...... {Interruptions)... SHRI BHAJAN LAL (Faridabad): SHRI SATYA PAL MALIK; Mr. Mr. Chairman, Sir, earlier it was an- Chairman, Sir, three-line whip has nounced by the Deputy Speaker in the been issued and the Members are House that discussion on this issue Mtting since morning, so the time will be held from 2 P.M. to 6 P.M. and should not be ex tendi by more than the voting will be done at 6 O’clock. half-an-hour. So a total of 4 hours were given for the discussion. But- the total time of .{Interruptioas). 4 hours has not been completed yet. Therefore, the time of the House SHRI RAM LAL RAHI (Misrikh): should be extended for one hour. Mr. Chairman, Sir, I am on point of Unterruptioiti)...... order.' My name was also there in the list. Although, the resolution was 17.45 hrs. [MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER moved by Shri Shankaranand, we in the Chair] should also be jdven an opportunity to express our views. So, I request that the time of the House should be [Englisit] extended by one hour...... {Interrup tions) ...... SHRI VISHWANATH PRATAP SINGH: Sir. you remember, when AN HON. MEMBER: The Ume the time allocation for this subject should not be extended and voting was being considered, the proposal should be done at 6 O’clock...... {In- initially was for three to five bouis. terruptiops)...... {Interruptions). Then the demand was 179 Adjourftmeni Motion OCTOBER 4, 1990 against Govt.'s 180 Folia iUmcitks decision on in dealing with Mandal Commissi-^n student agitation Report etc. [Sh. Vishwanath Pratap Singh] [Transiittion] made from the benches opposite that SHRI UDAY PRATAP SINGH: more time was ncetied. Then the Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, my point Chair was pleased to extend the time of order is that when time has been from 2 O’ clock to 6 O’ clock. Now allotted party-wise and the sitting of on one side, there is a demand fur the House has been extended by 30 extension by one hour or more. On minutes, this extended tiine of 30 the other side, the demand is that minutes should also be divided party- there should be no more extension. wise. It will not be proper if they The Chair has said about half an continue to speak. (Interruptions), hour’s extension. 1 think, we can agree to half an hour’s extension. SHRI JAG PAL SINGH: Mr. {Interruptions}. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the administra- tion of entire Northern India came SHRI P. R. KUMARAM4NGA- l o ' a standstill after 7th September. LAM (Salem): Ma> I have the atten- Railway, bus and other services were tion of the Prime Minister? From disrupted, educational institutions 2 O^ ckx:k to 6 O’ clock in the very were closed so much so that words of the Prime Minister is four even the administration of one All hours. At least give us four hours India Radio Stations was brought to promise. Otherwise, whiit is the a gtinding halt by the anti-reserva- purpose of moving the Adjournment tion students. The Government be- Motion. If we are not even going came the mute spectator of the ac- to be heard in this House, how will tivities of the anti-reservationists. we be heard outside this House? (Inter ruptions). 1 want to say that my party leader Shri Rajiv Gandhi and myself are MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: 1 have not against reservation. We are in heard the feelings expressed on both favour of the recommendations of the sides. Wc will tiy to respcel K>th Mandal Commission. It is the history sides as far as possible. of the Congress Party for the last 32 >ears that it has neither opposed re- {Intcrrupiions) servations nor it will do so in future, \\helher it is the case of the Harijans MR. DFPiri Y SPt AKLR: I ,im or the backward classes. But I op- not giving any ruling. pose the way in which the Govern- Now Shri Jagpal Singh lo speak ment placed in the House the recom- mendations of the Mandal Commis- [Translatiim] sion for implementation. SHRI JAG PAL SINGH (Hard- After sacking Shri Devi Lai from war): Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, in the post of Deputy Prime Minister, the post-indcpemdence period. the the hon. Prime Minister ran into caste rivalry has never been so in- problems as majority of the existing tense as it is during the tenure of M.Ps of his party belonged to back- this Government. Unterniption.s) ward classes. Two of his cabinet SHRI UDAY PRATAP SINCiH Ministers suggested that if he wanted to save his chair... (Interruptions) (Mainpuri): Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, T am on a point of order. and wants to isolate Shri Devi L ai he should implement the recommen- [Engiish] dations of the Mandal Commission. This will deter the M.Ps belonging MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Whut to the backward classcs from sup- procedure has been violated? Al- porting Shri Devi Lai. Therefore, ready time is very short. the recommendations of the Mandal 101 Adjournment Motion ASVINA 12,1912(SAKA) s^ainst Govt's 182 Police atrocities decision on in dealing with Mandal Commission student agitation Report etc. Commission weic placed before the by a person who is awake. The House on the 7th becausc Shri Devi agitationists are doing the same thing. Lai had given a call for the farmer’s Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, 1 want to rally at Boat Club on the 9th. The draw your attention to what 1 am Prime Ministei* also thought that af- going to say. A person, who called ter the implementation of Mundal himself a saint, incited such fanati* Commission recommendations, the cism and communalism, in the name rally organised by Shri Devi Lai at of Khalistan in Punjab to such an Boat Club would Hop. So, vi/ithout extent that we are still facing its consulting the report with his allied consequences. In the same way, the parties and the Congress, the hon. leader of the Bharatiya Janata Party, Prime Minister placed ii before the Shri L.K. Advani is touring Maha- House. The Government says that rashtra and Gujarat and the Hindu it is based on concensus, but it im- youths are putting ’tilak’ on their plemented the reconimeiKiations of foreheads with their blood. {Inter- the Mandal Commission witlioui any ruptiom), concensus. As a result, after 9th Shri Advani has jopeatedly said the allied parties started inciting the that come what mu), they will students against the jecommendations construct a temple after demolishing of the Mandal Commission. the mosque {Interruptions) I wuuld In the rally that was held on 2nd also like to ask that if this country the menibeis of Bajrang Dal and is converted into a Hindu rashtra, Shiv Skrna. {hucrrnpiiotis)... mar- where the people belonging to other ched in Delhi holding saffron flags religions will go? He is playing with and crcatcd a tense situation by the sentiments of the people and shouting slogans. Was the Govern- thus trying to disintegrate the coun- ment not aware that these agitators try...... {Inierruptiomy were armed with sticks, lances and spears when they boarded the tem- I am concluding. Slogans of Hindu- pos, trucks and buses? Where from ism and Hindu rashlta were raised these agitators came ..ifnterntpiions) right from Maharashtra to Gujarat. I allege that Shri Devi Lai sent a This is dangerous for our country. large number of antisocial elements Tridents, axes, spears, lances and from Haryana against this Govern- different types of arms are being ment. I would like to tell the hon. presented there to Shii Advani. Prime Minister that whether it is the I would like to ^^uhmit to the hon. issue of New Industrial Policy, Ram Prime Minister that he should not Janmabhoomi or the Budget, his associate with such a party, which allied parties do not support his po- do not respect his ‘suggestion that licy. Why is he taking support of the Babri Masjid issue should be such parties? Just to vSavc his own solved through discussion or post, he is putting the country on which does not accept the deci- flames by taking such support. These sion of the Court. Under the leader- anti-reservationists constitute only ship of Shri Rajiv Gandhi, we, the 15 per cent of the total population and Members of the Congress Party pro- since 1947, they are occupying 85 mise to fight terrorism, communa- per cent jobs in the country. The lism and Parocialism wherever it rest 85 per cent population gels only spreads. 4.7 per cent of jobs. If a question KUMARI MAYAWATI (Bijnor): is raised tomorrow that those 15 per Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I oppose the cent people should be given reserva- adjournment motion moved by the tion according to their population. Congress party in regard to the Man- Where will these anti-reservationists dal Commission. I would like to tell go? (JnterruptionsY.. It is like dep- this House through you that on be- riving a sleeping man of his house half of the Bahujan Samaj Party, we 1B3 Adjournment Motion OCTOBER 4, J990 against Govt^s 184 Police atrocities decision on in dealing with Mandal Commission student agitation Report etc. [Kum. Mayawati] have reminded me of the speech deli- vered by Baba Saheb Ambedkar. went through a long struggle from When Baba Saheb framed the Cons- 10th of August, 1985 to 31st of May, titution of India and suhmitted it to 1990 to complete the reservation the tirst President of this country, he quota meant for Scheduled Castes had said that howsoever excellently and Scheduled Tribes and to imple- drafted a country’s constitution may ment the Mandal Commission Re- be and whatsoever care the constitu- port. It is a matter of pleasure that tion makers may take to watch the on 7th August. 1990, the National interest of the poor and oppressed* it Front Government decided to iniple- cannot prove to be beneficial for the ment some of the recommendations poor and oppressed unless the inten- of the Mandal Commission for the tion of the people who would imple- welfare of the backward classes. The ment them is clear. Bahujan Samaj Party thanks the Gov- ernment for this. Besides, 1 would also Mr. Deputy Speaker. Sir, while like to submit that some narrow- highljghting ttie manifesto of his parly minded people oppose the recommen- a senior leader of the Bharatiya dations of Mandal Commission on the Janata Party Shri Madan Lai Khurana, ground that the reservation should who spoke before me, said that his be given on economic basis instead party's manifesto s|^ke at length of caste basis. Some narrow-minded about the implementation of Mandal people are opposing it by saying that Commission s recommendations. But casteism is being encouragcd on the the question is that of implementation basis of reservation in the country, of the recommendations and not sim- I would like to tell such people that ply mentioning them in the manifesto. casteism has not been created in the 1 also want to say that even if a mani- country today, but it was encouraged festo contains all ideal points, the by those people a long time ago, who poor and the oppressed cannot be cncouraged Brahminism in the coun- benilited by it unless the ideology of try. Had casteism not been encou- Brahminism is changed. 'fhe coun- raged in our country, Baba Saheb try is facing two serious problems at Ambcdkar would not have to support present. The Punjab and Jammu- reservation for the welfare of down- Kashmir problems arc already there trodden. 1 would like to say that but another seiious problem in being reservation has not given birth to created by the narrow ideology of the casteism, but casteism has given birth people who are inciting the anti-social to reservation. I would also like to elements against reservation issue and pin-point as to who is behind this are thus, damaging the public pro- anti-reservation stir that has been perty. Secondly 30th October is launched all over the country 1 fast approaching. On one hand, we am very straight forward in my want to curb communal violence approach. T do not want to criticise which has erupted owing to the Ram or condemn anyone. It is a fact that Janmabhoomi Babri Masjid issue but the agitations launched by the youths on the other hand, the narrow-minded and students against the implementa- people of secular India are not pre- tion of the Mandal Commission re- pared to wait for the decision of the commendations were not initiated by court. It is a matter of great regret them. In fact the students were incited that they are not waiting for the ver- by the Congress and the Bharatiya dict of the court. As such the move 18.00 hrs. of the senior leader of Bharatiya Janata Party, Shri Advani to match Janata Party. Why am I saying such towards Ayodhya for^Ae construction a thing? You should listen to me of Ram temple without waiting for patiently because BJ.P.'s attempts the verdict of the Supreme Court...... 185 Adjournment Motion ASVINA 12,1912 (SAKA) against Govt.'s 186 Potiee atrocities decision on in dealing with Mandal Conmission student agitation Report etc. {Interruptions) The Muslims are MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Maya- also the citizens of this country and watiji you please take your seat and they too want justice. {Interruptions) conclude. If you cannot wait for the court’s ver- dict then I say with authority that the KUMARI MAYAWATI: If 85 Bharatiya Janata Party’s attitude to- per cent of the people who are the wards the Muslims... (Interruptions) followers of Baba Saheb Ambedkar. If you are bent upon ignoring the Ramaswamy Naicker, Sahuji Mahaiaj court’s verdict and want to go ahead and Mahatma Jyoti Phule stand for with the construction of the tempJe. their ri^ts, the handful of people then the Musilims are also keen to cannot thrust their will on them. get justice and we are with the Mus- Therefore, I request you. Sir to let lims. (Interruptions) I can say with my points go on record because if a challenge that the Muslims will you expunge them from the procee- also construct mosque. (Interruptions) dings. it will not be in your own mtere.st. (Irrterruptions) MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Plea-se concludc quickly. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Maya- watiji you please take your seat and you shall not speak after this. KUMARI MAYAWATI: If the Bharatiya Janata Party does not wait KUMARI MAYAWATI: You for the court’s verdict. I would like expunge them from the procecdines. to tell the hon. Prime Minister..... you stop it from being shown on T.V. (Interruptions) MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: You please conclude. MR. DEPUTY SPFAKER: You are moving towards an entirely difTe- KUMARI MAYAWATI- The rent subject. You please stop here. hon. Prime Minister is worried about if and he is in a dilemma as to how KUMARI MAYAWATI: I re- this problem should be solved. The quesl the members of the House not Uttar Pradesh Chief Minister is also to supDress the voice of the poor. You worried about it but the number of should not be cowed down by the elected memibers of the Bharatiya pressurisine tactics of the people op- Janata Party is so large that they are p^ised to the recommendations. What- dominating the Janata Dal ...... ever you have done for the cause of the poor and oppressed bv civing re- MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: You servation to the people belonging to please conclude now. (he backward communities is a slen in the right direction. With this I thank you. KUMARI MAYAWATI: You are depriving the oppressed people of MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER; Udav justice but I want to tell you that the Pratap Singhji. you take only 2 to 3 total number of oppressed, backward minutes to make your submission. and minorities in the country is 85 oer cent. If a handful of people SHRl UDAY PRATAP SINGH who subscribe to ideology of Brah- (Mainpuri): Hon, Deputy Speaker, minism and whose number is only 15 Sir. I would like to draw the attention per cent, claim to be the followers of the entire House, through you to of the principle!! of Mahatma Gandhi the subiect under discussion. During and talk about making the country the freedom strugde some people told strong...... ^InterruptionH Mahatma Gandhi that they would try 187 Adjournment Motion OCTOBER 4, 1990 a^inst Govt's 188 Police atrocities decisim on in dealing with Martdal Commission student agitation Report etc. [Sh. Uday Pratap Singn] prompted them for agitation. Thus to extend their cooperation in free- I want to say that those who move dom struggle if he denounced eman- such motions do so with the sole in- cipation of Harijans. 1 would liJcc tention of inciting violence and dis- to tell the entire country through thii, rupting peace. You please look into House what Gandhiji had sa'd in very it. As such 1 would request the clear terms. He had said that wc House not to be misled by the words would not even touch that freedom of such people, because they do not which deters the emancipation of have any other aim than to incite Harijans. Sir, if we go through the violence. With these words I thank old issues of “Harijans” and “Young >ou very much. India" we find that these peopk who get votes in Gandhiji's name and MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: After come to this House, are the bogus this speech, the hon. Prime Minister followers of Gandhiji. 1 would like will speak and with that the discus- to tell you in very cleai terms that sion will come to a close, Shri D. D. in “Harijan" and “Young India” Khanoria...... Gandhiji wrote about Independence that; (Interruptions) [Enf^lish] SHRI BHAJAN LAL (Faridabad): Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I may also '‘It is not an end in itself. It is a be given time to express my views, means to a greater end." What was as 1 have many points on this issue... that greater end? That greater end \(lnte}ritpiion\)^ was social justice [Translation] SHRI D. D KHANORIA (Kangra): Mr, Deputy Speaker, Sir, many hon. 1'he social injustice like inequalities Members have expressed their views and disparities should be removed. on the reservation issue in this House, Sir, it is a matter of regret that c\en 1 think, none of the hon. Members after 40 years of independence, we belonging to any party except the have not paid any attention towards Congress Pariy has opposed this reser- the objective of our independence. vation. As far as our party, the No effort was made to remove the Bharatiya Janata Party's opinion about inequalities and no agitation was reservation is concerned, we are not launched in protest against social in- against it, rather we favour it. But justice. For the first time after in- there are some points which need dependence, when an attempt was serious consideration. We are of the made in this direction, it was foiled view that reservation in the jobs should at the very outset by inciting violence be given to the poor only and not to by the people who claim to be the the rich, whatever caste they may followers of Gandhiji. Let me ex- belong to. There is no justification plain it through an Urdu couplet: fjiving reservation to the big land-lords, “Kuch Card Urti Hi Hai Jab Kar- industrialists, I.A.S. or T.P.S. officers wan Chalta Hai." When a move etc. as it goes against the welfare of to eradicate the inequalities and social the Door of the country. I want to injustice existing in the society is quote the example of Himachal Pra- initiated, it affects the people who desh where our Government has have become habitual to these com- started Antyodaya programme. forts. 1 was taken aback to find Through this programme wc have that people themselves did not dare rome to know abt'>u» the number of to come to the forefront. Instead, families which are living below the they misled their children and poverty line in the state. In the 189 Adjournment Motion ASVINA 12,1912 (SAKA) against Govt.'s 190 Police atrocities decision on in dealing with Mandal Commission student agitation Report etc. ■ame way, we can find out the num* Party has extmded its fall coopera* ber of families in the country living tioo to the Janata Dal Government. below the poverty line, if we adopt But 1 must say that we should centre the same norms for our reservation our attention oji the poverty eradka- policy. The planning in the coun- tion programmes and take steps is try should be directed at removing ihat direction. For this purpose, poverty and that should be our first reservation may be given to the poor. and foremost goal also. Therefore, With these words, I thank you for reservation should be given on the giving me an opportunity to express basis of poverty. The Chief Miniiter my views...... {interruptions)...... of Himachal Pradesh has shown his [Er^lish] tirm determination in implementing the Antodaya programme in the State. THE PRIME MINISTER (SHRI Each family covered under this VISHWANATH PRATAP SINGH): [Sh. Vishwanath Pratap Singh] Various points have been made, carry on that struggle rather than how it has been done, what has been give up their lives. In a democratic done, but at least on this point, there system there are agreements and there is no difference of opinion. And this are disagreements and the way to is no small thing. Because when we carry on a debate is not by giving have to try to change the mould of up ones life. This is something for the social or economic or political which 1 want to appeal to the youn- structure, it is much more gigantic ger generation. job than making any legislation re- garding the government or even change We owe to the next generation of Government. The system accepts that they have a sense of fulfilment, changc of governments but does not a sense of achievement, a sense of accept change of itself. When }'ou try sharing and not of despondency and to change the system, the system despair. Whoever, he may be, there stands upto fight. should be a hope in the life of the younger generation. And in so far as there is a percep- tion by the whole House that some- May I also say at the same time thing has to be done for the deprived that we had given stricter instruc- sections of the society, it is a matter tions to the police. The Home Minis- of great hope for the oppressed and ter had given instructions not to ex- those who have not had a share in ercise any excessive force. Only when the affairs of the country. So, that their lives are threatened they should is one thing which is very encourag- take action, otherwise if there is a ing in today’s debate on this issue. I loss of property, we may accept the quite agree with the suggestions made loss of property. As Shri Indrajit by the friendly parties, the B.IP, the Gupta said, property can be replac^ CPM, the CPI that a dialogue should but lives cannot be replaced. T would be initiated. Sir, when the all-Party also like to give my appreciation that meeting first time took place, even at they observed restraint as much as that time, an appeal was made to the possible—as was seen on the 2nd of students and 1 had repeated it several October. times later. But though it has not Fn this House one thing was quite Jaken place, I have not lost hope. We encouraging. Whatever the Govern- cannot lose hope with the younger ment may be criticised for, the first generation. We cannot afford to lose sentence does come even from the hope with them whatever it may be. We will pursue to open a dialogue hon. Members of the Opposition... and very rightly it has been suggested AN HON. MEMBER: What do that the Vice-Chancellors, the tea- you mean by that? chers, other people who are in close contact with the students and the SHRT VISHWANATH PRATAP youth should be involved and we SIN G H : If you listen to me, you will would make sincere efforts in this know what I mean. direction as has been suggested by the They do endorse reservation for friendly parties. backward sections of the society. Tt is a matter of great encouragement Really so. we have given thought, that so far as the direction is con- the Government has already given cerned, there is a general consensus thought as to what should be our ap- seen in this House in spite of all these proach to the youth. Certainly one things that the backward sections of of the problems that does come and the society must be given a place and face the young generation is of even the specific endorsement of re- employment. But it is not only em- servation to jobs. ployment, if we see to the whole 193 Adjournment Motion ASVINA 12,1912 {SAKA) against Goyt.'s 194 Police atrocities decision on in baling with Mandal Commission student agitation Report etc. youth, merely as job seekers, we are to it in one aspect, viz. we have many not recognising' the full potential of largesses which are given by the Go- the youth, their capacity to sacrifice vernment—petrol pumps, gas agencies, for the nation, their emotional force fertOizer agencies—a hundred and that can transform the nation. This one things. They are by and lai:ge is something which we have not tap- cornered by people who have influ- ped yet. There is need to tap it. ence. or those who have some other When the integrity of the country is means to influence decisions. We have challenged, when the security of the decided that these benefits will flow country is challenged, there is on one to the talented youth who are econo- side youth which crosses the snow- mically weak; and with this, there bound mountains, comes across to lay will be objective criteria also—talent down his life for whatever he belie- which is based on marks or other- ves in. May be. a misguided youth wise. and the economic criterion whe- docs lay down his life for Khalistan, rein income tax etc. can be seen; and there is need to tap the national pat- on these criteria, in fact, regional dis- riotic chord in the youth and they tribution will take place. Even a boy ilo not lack it. If there is any lack, from Assam, Kashmir, Punjab. Rajas- the lack is in us—to give them the than or Gujarat from all over the leadership in the required direction. country can partake in this vast lar- It is not in the youth that something gesse that is given by the Govern- is lacking. I have the fullest faith ment. And it will be supplemented when it comes to the integrity and by a bank loan. After all. how many security of the country they will come IAS recruitments do we make in one upto it. It is for us to show them year? About 150 in the IAS. If we the path. The Government has de- take Class I posts in the Central Go- cided that it will be initiating steps vernment, it will be a thousand—plus in this direction, involving the youth, or minus 200 i.e. this way or that. By not by Government officers declaring this method, we will be making the a scheme but through (he National boys self-reliant, stand on their own Youth Council- -to involve them into legs, not under the orders of others, the debate. They will come up with but on their own feet, in their own proposals and we will take those ini- right. Along with this, we are also tiatives. discussing the modes and practical ways of how to enforce the right to Regartiing employment, it is one work. Certainly, it has to be within of the main problems. Certainly, we the constraints of our resources, be- have said that for those who have cause there is no point having any- qualified in medicine or engineering thing that way. if it is not going to or various professions, we have come be backed with resources. And a up with a scheme to provide loans to much deeper action woiild be neces- the extent of Rs. 120 crores in this sary, which we are doing; but cer- very vear, so that they are on their tainly. that is the direction that we own feet. Similarly, for the econo- are going to take. mically weaker sections of the youth, another package has been given, vvhe- There are some points that I want- rcin they will be given loan for high- ed to raise at this time, about which er education, so that they can bene- we have to think much deeper. Tn fit from higher education, even if the matter of our intake from our they are poor. education into the administrative ser- vices. there is a certain concept of The other point that has arisen out merit. But what we have In educa- o( this debate is: what wUI happen to tion is merit, or scholastic merit in merit, and to those who are econo- certain subjects. And that pertains mically poor? We liave given tbougjht to the individual—individual merit 195 Adjaumment Motion OCTOBER 4,1990 against Govt's 196 Police atrocities decision on in dealing with Mandal Commission student agitation Report etc. [Sh. Vishwanath Pratap Singh] are not sons of this soil, as if we do not exist, and as if our inspirations But the basic lacuna, as I see it, in have no place on the agenda.” And the education system which gets re- they said that even what little that flected in the administrative system, this Government has given, it seems is: what about the social merit of a that it has given it to some one who person? Not how much knowledge- is a foreigner. Is this all not given able he is, but how he relates to the to the children of this very soil? Is other human beings. That is the so- there not somewhere a heart to re- cial merit of our administration, be- cognise this. So, these boys and these cause what is the criticism about the sections who feel hurt by the imple- administration or bureaucracy today? mentation of the Mandal Commis- Not that it is not knowleilgeable or sion or given something to the back- that it is mediocre. The criticism ward classes of the society, should against the present administration is not take it that it has been car\'ed that it does not care. A mother is a out of their share; certainly it is mother, not because she is an intel- sometimes carved out, but more so in lectual. A mother is a mother because the sense that they have their bre- she cares; and that is what people thren, they have their sisters; and we look for, in the administration. And owe something to them. So, let it if that be so. we will have to re-defme be in the spirit of understanding and what is administrative merit. We will love, our sacrifice to enrich our less have to put a social content into it, deprived brothers and sisters, rather social connection into it. And, there- than of trying to pull at each other's fore, those who have gone through share. I think that is the spirit that suffering, those who know the pinch, will go to greater unity and greater if they are in the administration, they security of the country so that the will be more responsive—when the injustice is corrected. It will not lead oppressed and the weaker sections are to disintegration of the country; it in the bureaucracy. will lead to greater integration be- cause a family runs not by counting So, it is not against anyone; it is how much share of wealth has gone relating to the power structure, the to each—when you start counting, it bureaucracy, to the reality, Indian starts getting divided—but it runs by reality, and relating it to people who a sense of affection and fairness; and are the oppressed and deprived. it is the element of fairness that unit- es the country; and this is the ele- ment of fairness that we want to Now. a point has been made that bring. this is divisive, and it will divide the country and its integrity, emotional Integrity. Perhaps by the Press and A point is made: “well, you will the media we are looking to one as- be reminded of caste, and you will pect of it; may be it is valid; I do have to remember caste and this is not challenge it or question it. I am what will hurt the psyche of the whole not today in a mood of argumenta- country. Well, in our homes, we have tion. But I want to relate to you a never forgotten caste, whenever it story of young boys of the backward comes to marriage. Anybody who goes classes who had come to me. It tou- outside his caste to miirry, if a fa- ched my heart. They said: ‘‘Sir, we mily member, a young boy who goes are not agitating or taking recourse outside his caste to marry, even those to all this, because we know the Go- boys who are agitating, if they were vernment is standing by us; but when to marry outside their caste, they will it is mentioned about youth, about face grater oppression in their own students, it seems as if we are not the homes. But that Is heside the point youth, we are not the students, we I will not say that. 197 Adfournment Motion ASVINA 12, 1912 {SAKA) against Govt’s 198 Police atrocities decision on in dealing with Mandal Commission student agitation Report etc. The present social order by making us. and we will not be aware where a correction in it, the way the whole it has hit and how it has hit. It is power or other things are shared by hitting us. The various manifest*- the present social order by making a tions that we see. if we trace them, corrective measure, we are trying to there is somewhere some inequity make it more socially equitous. So. which we have refused to recognise, this may be a weapon; the Mandal which we have refused to correct. Commission can be a weapon to That is showing up into various forms break the caste system: and if that that we are seeing today, system is broken, the weapon can be broken; because no one can. T assure Therefore, if I can say, if there is you. say that it is going to be there one word to describe tlie present for ever. Government and its goal, i( I was asked. I will say ‘equity’- and from this our whole programme can be Because, no one. and I assure you, linked up: Equity political, equity no one says that it is going to be for social, equity economic; and political ever. That is not the case. Tf it is equity is our decentralisation. Inter- going to be for ever, that means (he State Councils, the federal structure, injustice, is to be perpetrated. That is reforms like the judicial reforms, what we want to look to. But if the availability of autonomy for TV and caste system is weakened, if there is Radio, these are all iT'easures of our more equitous social and economic political equity. At the same time, order, there will be no need of it. And our measures of economic equity are I said it is the last time. I.et hous- fifty per cent of the lesources to the ing, and clothing and food be equi- rural side, labour participation in lous; there is no need for rescrva- management, our commitment to agro- tions. So, as these sections come up. industries, small scale industries—these and we have said after ten years we are various measures of our economic will review it. there can be a mecha- equity that we have in mind, nism and we can think of it how we can get out of it and a more equitable Of social equity, urban ceiling, the social order comes. But today even various reforms. T am not elaborating, before giving anything, if you say, I am just telling you examples of “Well, you are going to consume this thrust from one word, one philosophy, much”. I think there is no intention These are all not disjointed program- of giving anything. Let them have mes. With social equity certainly we something. After that we can look have extended the reservations to SC. into it if we have overserved or they ST. Then, the SC ST Commission, have eaten too much. But today this the Women’s Commission and for the justice is required. • backward classes and backward sec- tions. Implementation. I admit, it is Basically, one thing, the focal solu- i S f n S tion. what I want to make is. the pre- Mandal Commission. senf Government, the National Front r-i. ^ Government wants to brina the debate I would be very happy, Shankara- of equity back in the focu$ of nation- nandji, and from your Party if you al debate. Tt has gone into the back- had criticised me, that it is a very ground Wc talk only of develop- Httle portion of Mandal Commission ment. But equity which was once in and we should go ahead, you have national debate has gone info the not the courage to say it. Sometimes background and no system can be it is forward, sometimes it is bacl^ stable, if you put this under the car- ward and you did not know in which pet: it will explode one day and hit direction your Motion was going, it 14^ A LSS'NP'^l * 199 Adjournment Motion OCTOBER 4,1990 agaimit Govt's 200 Police- atrocities decision on in dealing with Mandal Commission student agitation Report etc. tSh. Vishwanath Pratap Singh] .Minisiters huve made r^esentations to include certain castes as backward to be a very loose one. (Inter- class. Is he going to admit them?... rupHon^. (Interruptions) We are for social equity and to PROF. P. j. KURIEN: I have only commemorate tiie memory of Baba- to make a submission. safaeb Bitimiao Ambedkir, we have (Interruptions) sincerely taken these measures. It has fuIfiHed the dreams of the great Peri- MR. SPEAKER: Ottler please. 1 yw. Dr. Lohia, CUiowdhary Charan am not allowing him to speak. He Singhji. {Interruptions^ wants to make a submission. (Interruptions) Yes, he did stand for it...... {Inter ruptions) PROF. P. J. KURIEN: I do not (Interruptions) think that anybody in this House will dispute the importance of the subject SHRI ViSHWANATH PRATAP that we are discussing...... (Interrupt SINGH: He stood for the Mandal ti<*ns) Many of our young lives have Commission. (Interruptions) Now re- been lost. It is a serious issue. You peatedly from the benches opposite have a long list with you. I request my resignation has been demanded. I to the good sense of the friends on think, ^ t has become the first sen- the other side, through you. Sir, to tence of every debate. May 1 say. you extend the time of the sitting of the cannot make me resign from the com- House. mitments of the National I'lont ... (Interruptions) SEVERAL HON. MEMBERS: No. SHRI B. SHANK ARANAND: Your people are demanding it. PROF. P. J. KURIEN: We sat in this House upto 10.30 p.m. to pass SHRI VISHWANATH PRATAP the Prasar Bharati Bill. Why cannot SINGH: It Is not personal. I know il we sit late today?...... (Interruptions) is not per.sonal. {hacrruptiom) (Interruptions) All right, it is personal. You keep that aside. (Interruptions) I know MR. SPEAKER: 1 take your point these forces very well. I tried to touch Mr. Kurien. You please take your the system a little in the l inance scat...... ^fiDisiIy. I know what these forces did. 1 know what will happen when (Interruptions) anybody tries to touch the system and ttose who are eotreticbcd in it will PROF. P. J. KURIEN: They wan- react. This is nothing new. When we ted our co-operation today, few passing try to take some bold action in this the Pujijab Bill. Wc have extended direction, we should be ready to acce- our co-operation. pt any coitsequences in that direction and we are ready to accept it. At the (Interruptiom} same time, I thank the hon. Mem- Will you not allow Members to bers for the suggestions made and the speak on this important issue? (Infer- point that they made that the back- ruption) ward sections must get a place on the reservation. MR. SPEAKER: You will recall SHRI B. SHANK ARANAND; We that in the morning hours. I myself know that MPs from each Party and fixed 6 p.m. as the time. But the 201 Adornment Motion ASVINA 12,1912 iSAKA) agtm t G«vt.'s 202 Police atrecilies (keiskM on in dealing with Mandal Commission student agitation Report etc. Deputy Speaker extended for half-an- hour and he did a good thing. The point is that after the Prime Minister’s MR. SPEAKER; Shri Somnath iatervention, 1 think, it will be pro- Chatterjee. per to call the mover of the Motion to reply...... PROF. P. J. KURIEN: Wh»t ii your ruling? {Interruption:,) MR. SPEAKER: There is no ques* PROF. P. J. KURIEN; What is tion of ruling. your ruling? (Interruptim) SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE: MR. SPEAKER: There ii, no ques- Sir. we can understand their anxiety. tion of ruling on this...... (Interruptions). The time may fee {Interruption:,) extended by half ao hour. MR. SPEAKER: Let me hear your PROF. P. J. KURIEN: No. Sir. if Chief Whip. Please take your seats .. you are not extending the time, we are walking out. (InterruptionA) At litis stage, Prof. P. J. Kurien and PROF. P. J. KURIEN: There are some other twn. Members left the a number of precedents where we sat Home beyond 7.30 and upto 10.30 and even late in the night. {Interruptions} It is [Trcmiation] a very important issue. Many ot our Mcmbors want to speak. I request you MR. SPEAKER: Hon. Members, that time may be extended so that all why are you standing? Please be our Members who want to speak, can seated. be acconmiodated. {Interruptions) Engiiiit] MR. SPEAKER: There should be Please take your scat. I am mter- consensus in the House. ested to ask Mr. B. Shankarunand to reply to the Debate. But, he is not here. PROF. P. J. KURIEN: 1 request that the time of the House may be SHRI G. M. BANATWALLA extended. (Ponnani): One' question I want to ask. We have not walked out. We are MR. SPEAKER: I would like that here. We are co-operating. there should be consensus for extension of tiie time. Without exten- [Tnmsiation] ding the time how can I do it? MR. SPEAKER; Yes, what is your [Translation] point? [English] SHRI BHAJAN LAL: Mr. Spea- ker, Sir, this item was scheduled to be I am prepared to allow you if the taken up at 2 O' Clock and the discus- hon. Prime Minister wants to rc^y sion was to c SHRl G. M. BANATWALLA: But The motion was negatived. here you are proceeding on consen- sus. and on other matters you have thrown the consensus to the winds. 207 Matters Under OCTOBER 4, 1990 Rule 377 208 19.04 his. poration of all cities almost two decades ago which have been .denied MESSAGE FROM RAJYA SABHA even the minimum facilities both by the urban and rural development \EnsMi\ agencies. In Lucknow. Uttar Pradesh, alone more than one hundred villages SECRETARY-GENERAL: Sir. 1 were included in the Municipal Cor- have to report the following message poration area in 1967 and since then received from the Secretary-General even the minimum civic amenities of Rajya Sabha:— like drinking water, primary schools, hospitals and repair of roads has not “In accordance with the provisions been taken up because of lack of of rule 127 of ihe Rules of Pro- resources of the rural development cedure and Conduct of Business agencies. Hence t!ie burden on the in the Rajya Sabha, 1 am directed urban agencies. Thi.v is a piquant to inform the Lok S.nbha that the situation and lakhs of people arc Rajya Sabha. at its sitting held suflering because ol lack of any on the 4th October, IWO. passed, clear-cut guidelines. (, therefore, urge in accordance with the provisions upon die Union Government to issue of articlc 368 of the Constitution immediate instructions to the con- of India, without any amendment, cerned authorities in the various the Constitution (Seventy-sixth Slates to undo the wiong being per- Amendment) Bill. 1990. which petuated on the innocent citizens. was passed by the I.ok Sabha at its sitting held on the 4th October, (ii) Need to supply mote raw mate- 1990.” rial to small scale units like Ze- nith Carbon, Maniycr Metals, etc. SHRIMATI VASUNDHARA RAJE (Jhalawar); Sir. it is a matter MR. SPEAKER: We will now take of great concern that some Calcined up Matters under Rule 377. Petroleum Coke (CPC) Units set up in the small scalc sector in Assam, Bihar and Uttar Pradesh are facing serious crisis. In the public sector MATTERS UNDER RULE 377 there aie large scale units at Bon- 19.05 hrs. [MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER gaigaon and Barauni owned by Indian in the C/iw/] Oil Corporation and in the private .sector there is only one such unit (i) Need to instruct State Govern- which is called Petroleum and Chemi- ments to ensure mininmm civic cals Ltd. These large scale units do asMnities in villages not have any problem since they are getting adequate quantum of raw [Englhh] materials. Haldia has got enhanced allocation from 50,000 to 75.000 ton- SHRl MANDHATA SINGH (Luc- nes of raw material per month. But know): Sir, the proposed sanction of it is regrettable that equal attention more than 200 crores of rupees as is not being paid by Ministry of loan granted by the World Bank for Petroleum and Chemicals to promote improving the civic facilities in big small scale units though the Central cities in the country makes it neces^ Government has announced that prio- sary to draw the attention of the rity would be given to boost to small Government towards the pitiable pli- scale units. Prominent among the ght of a large number of villages. affected small scale units are Zenith Such villages were included in the Carbon, Maniyer Metals, New Car- extended areas of the Municipal Cor- bon, Bihar Carbons and Petri-carbon 209 Matters Under ASVINA 12, 1912 {SAKA) Rule 377 210 (Varanasi). These small scale units economy of the region. Tht Govern- need 2000-2500 tonnes of raw mate- ment of India should take urgent steps rial per month, whereas they are to extend the Bay of Bengal Pro- hardly given 40 to 45 tonnes of their gramme (BOBP) ‘Small Scale Fisher- allocated quota. As such, these folk Communities in Bay of Bengal’ units aiie facing serious crisis and most to the Sunderbans Area also. of ftem are on the verge of closure. In that event, a large number of peo- ple could be rendered unemployed. (iv) Need la remove discmteiii among the Sikhs in Pm jab In view of this. 1 demand that the [Tramlotion] small scale units mentioned above be suitably considered for higher allocation of raw material so "that S. ATINDER PAL SINGH they may function smoothly and save (Patiala): Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, large number of employees as well I want to submit the following matter as the workers, most of whom are SC under rule 377:— & ST, from retrenchment. The innumerable Sikh youth in Punjab are detained unconstitu- tionally for months without pro- (iii) Need to fake necessary steps for ducing them before the Magistra- the overall development of Sun« tes according to the constitutional derbans area in West Bengal provisions and they are inhumanly tortured by the Punjab Police and SHRI SANAT KUMAR MANDAL the Central Para-Military Forces. (Joynagar): Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, If these youth die in custody due to while nature has been bountiful to the torture, the police show them as Sunderbans in West Bengal for its rich killed in encounter. As a result, flora and fauna, scenic beauty and a feeling of discontent and seces- ambience, the renowned ‘Bengal Tigers’, its people are deep rooted sion is growing among the Sikh in poverty. They are not only ill-clad community there. and ill-fed but a sizeable number of them do not even have two square Therefore, 1 request the Govern- meals a day. Their main avocation ment to take firm and practical steps is wood-cutting and fish breeding. and take action against the olTicers While going to the forest for wood who are guilty of such cruel acts. cutting, a good number of them are Further, the Government should pay mauled by the ferocious tiger’s and compensation to all affected youths there is hardly any hamlet in the and should release all those who are area where there is not a ‘tiger under unconstitutional detention of widow’. 1 would urge the riovernmcnt the Punjab Police. to put up infrastructure in coopera- tion with the State Government to (y) Need to provide more funds’ for start small scale village industries and SC/ST students living in hostels ask the Khadi and Village Industries of educational institutions^ parti- Commission to take a lead in this cularly in Orissa sphere. The Government should also ask the NABARD or some of the [English] Regional Rural Banks to open one of its Branches in this area to give SHRI K. PRADHANI (Nowrang- loans to the poor for starting some pur): Sir, there arc a large number cottage industries. of hostels for the high schools for Scheduled Caste and Tribal boys in Further there is great scope for in- the country specially in Orissa creasing production of fisheries, which where the stipend given to a student can play an important role in the per month is Rs. 100/- for food. 211 Matters Under OCTOBER 4, 1990 Rule 377 212 [Sh. K. Pradhani] education particularly among the back- ward classes. clothing, oil and soap etc. The sti- pend per day comes to Rs. 3/- i.e. T, therefore, request the Ministry of Rs. 1.50 per diet. Due to poor diet Welfare to release matching giants to and bad condition of the hostels, the these institutions which are not able students go back to their homes as to function properly due to constraint they cannot adjust with the food serv- of resources. ed to them in hostels, and a^ such the drop out percentage, particularly in Orissa is very high. The Government MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The of Orissa, although arc aware of the House stands adjourned to re-assemble facts, yet cannot afford to give more tomorrow at 11.00 a.m. money for these SC and ST students. 19.15 hrs. As ‘education’ is in the concurrent list of the Constitution, both the The Lok Sabha then adjourned till State and the Central G MGIPCBE-S8-~1 LSS/ND/91~~29-4-91-^700.