Transcript of an oral history interview with Bernice Wilson with comments by daughter PATRICIA WILSON CRUTCHFIELD
Thursday, March 20, 2003 at Crutchfield Residence Saint Paul, Minnesota
Interviewed By Kateleen Hope Cavett Project
as part of Society HAND in HAND's RONDO ORAL HISTORY PROJECT Saint Paul,History Minnesota Bernice Wilson did this interview at the age of eighty-two years. Mrs. Wilson discusses her disgust over the lack of respectable employment opportunities and frustration over theHistorical conservative laws that existed in Minnesota when she movedOral to Saint Paul from Chicago in 1949. Mrs. Wilson advised that she was a mother first, but at our request she details the social clubs the existed in the Black community. These clubs were created because Blacks were not welcome at many White owned establishments. She states, ''It was a fantastic social life, a fantastic social life." She describes the community support when her husbandRondo and son died, and her love for traveling. Pat Wilson Crutchfield, at age fifty-seven years, shares her mother's memory of the community support when her father passed away, and also discusses her involvementMinnesota in the church, and her experiences being raised as a "village child," as in the old African proverb, ''It takes a village to raise a child." This is a verbatim transcript of a taped interview, edited for clarity. Signed releases are on file from Mrs. Wilson and Mrs. Crutchfield.
3 BW: Bernice Wilson KC: Kate Cavett BW: I'm Bernice Wilson,1 mother of Patricia Wilson. Do you want to know where I live? KC: I'd love to know where you live. BW: _ Carroll, Saint Paul, Minnesota. PC: I'm Pat Wilson Crutchfield and I live at _ Aurora, Saint Paul, Minnesota, and I've lived in the Rondo community for fifty-three years. Came when I was four. Project BW: My God. Society KC: Mrs. Wilson, what year did you come to this community? BW: Did I come to Minnesota? KC: Minnesota. History BW: I came to Minnesota in 1949 and I moved on Rondo in 1953. KC: Where did you live first? Historical BW: 633 Iglehart. Oral KC: So you were still in the Rondo corridor? BW: Yes. I didn't mention that because I thought you were only interested in RondoRondo A venue. KC: What brought you to Minnesota? BW: My Minnesotahusband2 was transferred. He was a railway mail clerk. And he didn't want his children growing up in Chicago, so he asked for a transfer. KC: Which railroad did he work for?
1 Bernice Wilson was born January 21 , 1921 . 2 Husband John Wilson
8 BW: [He] worked for the post office. He was a railway mail clerk. PC: He ran on the Milwaukee [Rail] Road, didn't he? What was the name of the train he ran on? BW: Milwaukee, yes. But he wasn't a railroad person, he was a post office employee. KC: He worked for the United States Post Office? BW: Yeah, but he did run on the Milwaukee Road, from here to Chicago. But not as a railroad man, but as a railway mail clerk. He threw mail from Saint Paul to Chicago. Yeah. KC: What does it mean to throw mail? Project BW: Sort mail. Society PC: According to zip code and so forth. KC: So he would ride in the car and sort the mail all the way to Chicago? BW: Yes. He'd go to work about fourHistory hours before the train left Saint Paul. They would sort mail for the little towns so that as the train left Saint Paul and you hit the littleOral towns, they Historical had the mail packs ready. The train kept going, [and they had] one of those things with the arm out that takes the mailbags. You know about the arms? KC: I grew up in a little town that had one. BW: Okay.Rondo KC: So he would get up four hours before he had to sort the mail? BW: He wouldMinnesota go to work four hours before the train left, yeah. KC: And then sort the mail all the way to Chicago? BW: Yes. They started four hours ahead of time so that as they hit the little towns, the mail would be ready.
9 KC: Then would he turn around on another train and corne back that night? BW: No, no, he would usually spend the night and corne back the next day. PC: He spent a couple of nights. He was gone two or three days, wasn't he? BW: No, he worked a week, then he was off a week. That's why we always laughed and said that he worked ,twenty-six weeks, he was off twenty-six weeks. But what happened was his runs were-like he would run this week. Well, he would be going to Chicago, then he would corne back, then he would go out and go back to Chicago and then corne back. So he would do that for about a week or seven days. Then he was off for seven days, then he would go back. It might be for nineProject days next time. Yeah, but anyway, it averaged out so he worked twenty-six Societyweeks. [Then] he was off twenty-six weeks.
KC: It sounds like his days were twelve [or] sixteen hour days, though, when he was on? History BW: Yeah, but he didn't-they usually worked nights or whatever. Sometimes he would work Oralin someone's Historical place. So he would go from here to Chicago working their place, but he'd deadhead back, yeah. Do you know what deadhead means? Or have I lost you? KC: No, I do, but why don't you explain it for the tape. BW: RondoThat means when you work in someone's place one way. And then you just get on a train as a passenger and corne back to Saint Paul. KC: I'm Minnesotafamiliar with the term because I have a friend who is a pilot and pilots use that same term. BW: What do you call that? Unpaid.
10 KC: Yes, the unpaid ride back. You came here and because his work was connected with the trains, did you ... BW: He worked in the post office. KC: Right. BW: And then after the post office, he took the test and then he went into railway mail. KC: Being in this neighborhood, did you connect with a lot of people who were connected to the railway? BW: No. KC: None? Project BW: With the railroad people, yes, but not with the post officeSociety. That's where people used to always get it confused, because he was on the railroad and whatever. They confused him with being a railroad person. He wasn't. He was post office. History KC: Were there a lot of Black people who were postal people? BW: No, there wasn't. No,Oral I don't think-thereHistorical was two, maybe three, at that time. KC: Most of the people he worked with were White? BW: Yes. PC: Oh,Rondo but there were a lot of railroad people here. BW: 01)., yes,Minnesota the railroad people. [I thought] she was asking me about your dad, yeah. Right, but not railway mail people. PC: I call myself a railroad child. My dad worked on the railroad. But I never get off into the post office. A lot of times they just assume he was a porter or a waiter.
11 BW: So many people have mentioned that because they thought that we were eligible for a railroad pass, when we weren't. He didn't work for the railroad. PC: We come from a line of railroad folk. KC: What company did your family work for? BW: I guess Illinois Central [Railroad]. KC: Okay. What was it like when you came here to Minnesota in 1949? What was your impression of this neighborhood that you had moved into? BW: Do you really want me to tell you? KC: [Amused] I really want you to tell me! Project BW: All right, I will really tell you. I thought this was Societyone of the worst places that I ever had the misfortune to go to. This reminded me of what they were talking about Georgia, Mississippi, the Deep South, for the Negroes. History
I worked at Montgomery Wards in Chicago as an assistant supervisor. They had a MontgomeryOral WardsHistorical3 here. I thought because they had Wards here I could get transferred, maybe not in my same position, but at least a comparable job, and they would not transfer me. And so they said, "When you go there, go to the office and tell them that you were employed with Rondous. Just go to the office and tell them." So I did. What it was, they didn't have Negroes at Wards at that time doing anything but maid work and janitors.Minnesota
3 Montgomery Wards & Co. was located at 1400 University.
12 I think we came in November, so I had Thanksgiving and Christmas to get through. Although my husband was working, I always was independent, liked to make my own money. And so I went to work at Wards as a maid. Oh and I was so insulted, but I wasn't that insulted. I worked there for-I think for Christmas, yeah.
I thought my husband was going to have a fit. He was from Oklahoma. He was the type of man that if he made a dollar a day, a dollar a week, a dollar a month. His wife was supposed to stay home and live on it. The idea of his wife going to work, he thought that Projectwas the worst thing in the world. So every time he turned his head, I had a job. ButSociety it was okay. I didn't care for it. I wasn't here a month and I was ready to go back to Chicago. KC: You'd never worked as a maidHistory before? BW: No. KC: How did that feel deepOral down? HistoricalYou're in Minnesota and all of a sudden you're delegated to be a maid? BW: I wanted to make some money and this is what they did up here and I just went along with the program. And I didn't stay home and cry and anything.Rondo I just put some boots on, an extra pair of slacks because they had-they didn't have buses then, they had streetcars down University. So thenMinnesota I would walk over to University or I would take the Dale Street streetcar and transfer at University. On a cold morning ... KC: You would put an extra pair of pants on and ... BW: I put [on] extra clothes because I
13 didn't want to freeze. When you're standing out
there waiting and the bus-not the bus, the streetcar is full, it would pass you by. You'd have to wait for the next one.
But that was when it was really, really cold. Project I remember the time my husband never came so closeSociety to being divorced. I had told him, I said, "When it gets to be twenty below I'm not going to work." So I said, "Okay, how cold is it?/I "Eighteen below./I Then I'd go. I did something else. "HowHistory cold is it?/I "Nineteen below./I And I said, "When it gets twenty below tell me, all right?/I And so it did get to be twenty below, butOral he didn't Historical tell me. So I got to work and when I got to work and walked in half froze and everybody was talking, "Oh my God! Damn, it's cold out there!/I "How cold is it?/I "Twenty-two below./I And I
thought, "Oh, my Lord./I I never came so close to divorcing that man. KC: RondoHow long did you work as a matron at Wards? BW: Let's see, they hired me for Christmas and it was just before Thanksgiving.Minnesota So I think I worked there until Christmas. Then after that they asked me to stay and I got all happy and I think they were paying me $19.50 a week. And you got a little brown envelope and it had a little window in it that you could see and they would put the cash in there, the
14 dollars, and they would put a little round paper over it so you couldn't see it. I worked in the furniture department, so they gave me 10%
[discount] . KC: This was as a matron or did they move you into sales? BW: No, I was the maid. KC: The maid in the furniture department? BW: Yes, and I worked in the furniture department, which meant when the new furniture came in it was full of chalk and white, and everything. The mirrors and everything had white stuff all over it. So you had to wash the mirrors, wash the furniture, the tables. Like this.Project Society You would have to wash it and then you would simonize4 it. It had to be simonized, so you did the furniture like that. And they had a thousand lamps - it seemed like a thousandHistory - and so you had to take the shades off, wash the lamps and dust the shades off and put them back onto the shelf. Oral Historical You got 10% off, so we had a beautiful apartment. And I had a lovely bedroom off the kitchen and so I got some furniture. I furnished the back bedroom with my 10% [discount]. Then I got my television. I had to talk myRondo husband into signing for me to get television. The television was five dollars Minnesotaa month and I thought-I promised if he would sign I'd pay the five dollars a month. So he signed, they delivered the television. I quit, came home and watched TV. Typical wife! [Laughter]
4 Simoniz~: to polish or wax.
15 KC: Now I'm curious, why did he have to sign. Why couldn't you have signed for the television? BW: He was working. I was only part-time. KC: Oh, okay. BW: Yeah, I was only part-time. Yeah, and so he had been on the job for whatever and so forth. I didn't have any [credit history.] KC: His income was more? BW: Yeah. KC: After a while in Saint Paul, did you still think it was as bad as the South? BW: Yeah, but I was used to it. When you've livedProject somewhere and everybody around you has accepted it, then you just go alongSociety with them. But every chance, every excuse I could use, I left. It wasn't that great. Anytime I had a chance to leave I would go, yeah, and I've been doing that ever since. Yeah. History KC: Where would you go? BW: Oh, go to Chicago.Oral Visit some Historical of my friends. KC: Can you talk more about how it was different here than it was in Chicago? BW: Everything closed up here, oh, what was it? They closed up 10:00 or 11:00 Christmas Eve. Christmas night you couldn't go to the show. You couldn't Rondogo to a restaurant because they weren't open and just a lot of things. Where I was used to going to the store all night if I wanted to. And you couldMinnesota get anything you wanted, when you wanted. And here, it wasn't like that. KC: In Chicago, did you live in a very large Black community? BW: Yeah, yeah, it was, but it was kind of mixed.
16 KC: What was it like living here where the Black community was so small?
Was it different? What I'm asking you is how Blacks were treated here, compared to how you were treated in Chicago. BW: I was-we did what we wanted to in Chicago. KC: Could you do what you wanted to do here? BW: I didn't. But that was me. Nobody else wanted to do what I did. Because I was used to certain freedom and whatever. Like I smoked, which I still do. And I would want cigarettes and I would want to go to the store and get some. Couldn't, the store was closed. Couldn't on Sunday, the store was closed. You could go to a bar. They had cigaretteProject machines. KC: Do you have any reactions to the fact that this was Societya very small Black community compared to Chicago? Did you have any experiences that surprised you?
BW: Well, I guess it came from WardsHistory not accepting me, having to go there and having them to offer me what they had. So they weren't that particularly interested because BlacksOral weren't Historical doing what I was doing in Chicago, and so that was one little culture shock. KC: Did that continue? You got other jobs. Did you find that other places were willing to hire you, regardless? BW: HowRondo can I put that? I was and wasn't in the market for a job per se. My husbandMinnesota was not a - he did not believe in women working. And as I say, every time he turned his head-like we would go shopping at Wards, maybe for tires or something, something for the kids, and I'd leave him looking at something. I'd go up to the employment office up there and I'd get a job and they'd tell me start Monday.
17 So then I'd go back and he's still looking at whatever he's looking and I'd tell him, "You know I've got a job. I start Monday." And he'd have a fit. Yeah, but I always liked to work, make my own money. KC: Can you tell me about all the different jobs you've had? BW: I haven't had that many. In Chicago I worked at Wards. I was assistant
billing supervisor. It was just a title, nothing to get excited over. It was just a title, but even so they weren't doing that here. But see, that was in the tail end. That was in 1949, just before I came here. Project I worked at the post office for a while, and I quit soSociety they wouldn't fire me. Because you-they want you to throw [a quota]. What did Chicago have at that time? Was it seven or eleven parts? And I had one part and I got
three extensions and I quit.History Because if you get three extensions and you don't quit, they'll fire you. KC: What other jobsOral did you have Historical when you lived here? BW: Before then, I did a lot of defense work because the warS was on. I did a lot of defense work, I think that's when I made the most money I ever made.
What did I do? Douglas Aircraftti, and then there was Dodge7 whatever Rondoand I think at Dodge I got as high as-I think it was $23.14 an hour. KC: Whoa.Minnesota
5 World War II. 6 Over the course of WWII , Douglas Aircraft built nearly 30,000 planes with a workforce of 160,000 people nationwide. 7 Dodge Brothers Motor Company began in 1914. It was significantly involved in World War I making autos, ambulances and recoil mechanisms. Walter Chrysler purchased Dodge in 1925. Civilian car production halted in 1942 and all production efforts went to the World War II effort.
18 BW: Well, it depends on what you do on the aircraft. Each job paid so much an hour and so it depends on what you're doing. KC: So was this like an assembly line work? BW: Yeah, and everybody had certain jobs that they did on the planes. KC: So this would have been during the war, and you made $23.00 an hour? . BW: Well, let see. I was thinking - Wards, the Post Office, then the other job. Then I stayed home because I had the baby, then when my husband came home, then he got hired and then he was at the-was the shipping clerk. Then he went to the post office. Then he came to Minnesota. But in the meantime, I think I was working at Wards, yeah,Project because my mother lived with us. So when I would work like that, my mother Societywould take care of Butch and Pat. KC: Now after your husband died, did you have to work full-time? BW: Oh yeah. I didn't go out to workHistory at first. I was watching As The World
Turns. S And I was trying to get somebody out of jailor something before I went to work, andOral I kept sitting Historical up there and I was taking Geritol,9 Somebody said, "Oh Bunny, you're run down, you need Geritol." Went and got some Geritol. Geritol was 42% alcohol and I wasn't an alcohol person. I always been a smoker. So I sat up there and stayed drunk on GeritolRondo and watched As the World Turns and then all of a sudden it hit me: I better get out of here and get a job. So I left the Geritol alone and got sober andMinnesota went out and got a job. KC: Where did you get a job?
8 As the World Turns is a daytime TV soap opera. 9 Complete multi-vitamin that claims to contain every vitamin and mineral established as essential in human nutrition.
19 BW: At the University of Minnesota Hospital and of all places, in the Cancer Department. I was a nurse's aide. Nobody wanted me because I was too old. I'm trying to think how old was I? Born in 1921 to 1958. I would be thirty-seven years old. Yeah, they said I was too old, and the kids were going to be getting out of high school, and they were waiting for the kids to get out of high school so they could hire them. KC: But they hired you? BW: Yes, temporarily, but I was low man on the totem pole. Because I never knew from one day to the other what time I would work again. KC: Then at one point you worked down at the Capitol?lOProject BW: Here in Saint Paul. Okay, you are going to make meSociety remember Saint Paul then. KC: Yes. [Unison laughing] BW: Yeah. After I was a nurse'sHistory aide, Cancer Department at the University of Minnesota Hospital, I left there and I went to the State of Minnesota. And I'm trying to think.Oral He died Historical in '58. I'm trying to think when did I start. They gave me credit for the U, because when I retired, I had thirty-two years of service [for the State of Minnesota].
RondoMy first job at the Capitol, the State Capitol-at that time people sent checksMinnesota in for their license plates and we recorded their checks and whatever, the license and the names. I met some very nice people. That
10 The Saint Paul Capitol is located at 75 Rev. Martin Luther King Jr. Blvd , north of downtown Saint Paul. Minnesota statehood came in 1858. Controversy over the capitol's location lasted for thirty-six years . A $2 million legislative appropriation for a capitol building in Saint Paul settled the issue in 1893.
20 office was on the first floor, downstairs in the Capitol building.ll Periodically, you'd have to take a test. Every time you passed an exam you were promoted. So occasionally I would take a test and whatever, but I was with them for thirty-two [years.] KC: What was your last job at the State? BW: Auditor with the State Retirement [Department]. KC: So you're good with numbers? BW: Every job I've ever had, it's been numbers. KC: I'm getting that pattern. BW: Yeah, numbers, numbers, and I can't add two andProject two. That's what I keep telling them. My son's so smart, Tim. Just a brain with Societynumbers, anything with numbers. What is it? Calculus and all that stuff. Sailed right through it. I can't even spell it, let alone do math. KC: Now let's go back to-you've justHistory come to this place that you think is like the South and they treat Blacks worse than you've ever been treated in Chicago. Oral Historical BW: They were okay because nobody raised any fuss and everybody was very comfortable here. And as I settled down, I realized why the salaries were low. I thought coming from Chicago at that time, the salaries were extremelyRondo low here. And then, after I was here for a while and I guess I became Minnesotamore familiar with things, it hit me that the property here was so reasonable and so people would have a nice big house - three, four, five bedrooms or whatever and so forth. And maybe the wife worked, the husband worked. There was quite a bit of social life here at that time.
11 The Minnesota State Capital is located at 75 Dr. Martin Luther King Boulevard, formally Constitution Avenue
21 19:36 KC: Can you tell me about the social life here at that time?
BW: Oh God. I met some folks here that knew some people I knew in Chicago.
So after I was here, I called them. I had a girlfriend that married a fellow from here and through she and her husband, they introduced me to their
friends. Everybody was in clubs and so I just laughed and had a good
time and [they] invited me to the clubs and oh, I just had a ball. I danced. I
was one of those that would rather dance than eat. So I would go to the
parties and whatever. So I guess they kind of liked me a little bit because they were asking me to join the clubs. Project KC: What were the names of some of these clubs?12 Society BW: Well, one was the Cameos and another one was the Aquarian. KC: How did the clubs work? BW: You're asking me that? History KC: I am. BW: You don't knowOral anything aboutHistorical clubs? KC: No. BW: You're kidding. You're just saying that for the thing here. KC: No, I don't. I've never belonged to any clubs. Rondo
12 Social clubs Minnesotawere formed out of necessity because recreation and entertainment facilities for Black people were limited in the 1920's and 30's. None of the better restaurants served them , nor did the major hotels rent rooms to them. By 1935, there were two dozen clubs of various kinds that existed in the Twin Cities. In the 1940's, the hotels began to rent party rooms for private parties only. Some of the clubs included: Credjafawn ; Cameo Club who were rivals with the Credjafawn Social Club; Club Adelphi was a women's social and civic club; Sterling Club was founded in 1919; T.S.T.C Club was founded in 1896; Ludatin ; Zodiac Club; En-nous; Forty Club; Regaletts; DYWYK stood for "Don't You Wish You Knew."
22 BW: Oh, poor thing. [Chuckles] It's just a group of people-because they couldn't go so many places that were for the Whites. They didn't welcome the Blacks. So then a group of compatible Blacks would get together and they would have to spend the money and pool their money together and then they would have maybe an anniversary of the club when they first started. Maybe it would be like Christmas, they would have maybe a Christmas dance or Christmas party and they would rent very nice rooms out at the University. Project Society
Sterling Club Dance History
I'm trying to think Oralof some of theHistorical rooms now, been so long. But it was very, very nice and it was in the evening.
I remember how shocked I was when I first went. I don't remember if it wasRondo a formaP3 or just a dance, because they had an awful lot of formals here. In MinnesotaChicago, socially, you could go out to a formal or party and if it started from 10:00 to 2:00, 11:00 to 3:00, 12:00 to 4:00 and whatever. Then of course you didn't go horne then because you'd have to stop somewhere
13 Formal dress attire required .
23 and have something to eat and whatever. So you go home in the wee, wee hours, by the time the sun was coming up.
Then we came here and I was meeting folks and they were giving parties. They invited me and I think I was still working at Wards and I came [home] at 4:00 [p.m.], had dinner with the family and then I was pin curling14 my hair and then I said, "Well, they won't pick me up." My friends were going to come by and pick me up, but they hadn't told me what time. So I think this was around maybe 7:30 and I'm going to take a nap or take a couple hours nap before they pickProject me up. So just before I got in bed the phone rang and this was the lady of theSociety couple that's going to pick me up. I said, "Oh, hello. How are you?" And whatever and so forth, and she said, "Hello. How are you? Are you ready?" And I said, "Ready? Ready for what?" And so sheHistory said, "Well, you know, it starts at 9:00." And I said, "What starts at 9:00?" And I'm not trying to play crazy, but I know she's not talkingOral about thisHistorical affair. So she said, "We're gonna pick everybody up, and I was wondering if we should pick you up first because we're just about ready to leave." And I looked at the clock and I
thought, where? "Are you going to the affair?' She said, flyes." And I said, Rondo"Tonight?" But anyway I said okay.
I wentMinnesota ahead and threw my rags on and whatever. When her husband came to the door to get me, I think my husband, he was here, he was babysitting, and so I went. And I remember how floored I was and I said
14 Pin curling is to take small sections of damp hair, wind around finger and bobby pin to head until dry.
24 to myself, "My God, nobody goes out this early." 1 think they picked me up something like twenty after eight. 1 thought, my God, 1 never heard of such a thing, but then 1 got used to it and 1 found out that there were times. They were from 9:00 [p.m.] to 1:00 [a.m.], because everything closed at 1:00 [a.m.] or at 12:00 [midnight] .or something. KC: Well, the bars had to quit serving liquor at 1:00. BW: But you have to order your drinks [by midnight.] PC: But you know what? That's why we always had the community after-hour
joint. BW: Yes. Project PC: So that people, Black folks, could continue partying. TheySociety had to stop at 1:00, so they went to the after-hour joints after that. Don't you agree? BW: Yes, yes, it was cute. And it was so cute when 1 had out-of-town company. Everybody was running up toHistory Saint Paul and they would come up here and 1 was taking them-my husband was so shocked. 1 was taking them to the after hours joint.Oral He was lookingHistorical at me real funny because he didn't know 1 knew [about] after hours joints. And 1 was taking them, and after 1 took them, the next day you heard about that they had raided the place. And the police had come and taken everybody downtown, we just missed them.Rondo 1 was so embarrassed. 1 thought, "Oh my God, what did 1 do?" KC: So now, when you partied here, they picked you up at 8:30, you partied until 1:00,Minnesota then did you go to the after hours joint and some place to eat?
25 Project Society
History Cameo Social Club Bee Wilson is seated in the front row first on the left. BW: It depends on theOral group you Historicalwere with. Sometimes depends on the group. Sometimes you were with a party group and they didn't believe in going home until daybreak. Then again you were with another group where he
had to go to work the next day, so then you go straight home, whatever. RondoSo it kind of depended, yeah. KC: So you were the party one and your husband preferred to stay home? BW: Well,Minnesota he was working. He was very reserved. Yes, he was a party pooper. I liked to party. I liked to go. I was real friendly and made friends. I think I
was really too friendly for him. But he was very reserved and I would
26 meet you and I would hug you and whatever and "Ah, come on over to
my house." pc: He worked on the railroad and when he was in town he was the community plumber. He went to Dunwoody15 and graduated from Dunwoody. There's his graduation picture up there in the cap and gown. He did plumbing when he was in town; I remember that on his days off. BW: Yeah, but he-after he graduated, then he came here. And it was so cute though. PC: He didn't go to Dunwoody? BW: Yeah, he graduated. Project PC: Oh, okay. You said, "Then he came here." I thought youSociety meant ... BW: No. But I'm saying that it was so cute. We had this little thing that I could have the check and he would have the spare money that he would make doing plumbing. And that workedHistory out fine because I paid all the bills and I did this, that, and the other, bought all the food and everything. Oral Historical So then he started doing recreation rooms, bathrooms and this, that, and
the other. He started bringing in $1550, $2500, his little plumbing check. And I said, "Now wait a minute, this is not working. This is not working right,Rondo you're making too much money. We're gonna have to renegotiate. You're getting' more money than I am." That was cute.
KC: Now, ifMinnesota he went to Dunwoody, did he want to go into the plumbing business or did he just want ...
15 Dunwoody Institute: A technical school which began in 1914 and is located at 818 Dunwoody Blvd ., Minneapolis, MN.
27 BW: No, he just wanted to do plumbing. He didn't want to give up his job. No, he didn't want to give up his job. KC: He liked working for the post office? BW: Yes, he did. KC: Let's talk about the social life in Saint Paul. Where all did you go party? BW: Well, back then as I said, they didn't go out and party like they do now. So they went and partied and had club meetings at the homes. You have your clubs. You would meet alphabetically at the homes every week or every month, or whenever. KC: How many different clubs did you belong to?Project BW: I think I started out with one, then it was two, then Societyit was three. PC: You're still in a lot of them, too, aren't you? The Cameo League? BW: Well, I've kind of cut down. I did belong to about nine there for a while. But I kind of cut down. But,History two or three of them, they disbanded. Folks didn't want to meet, fix food and stuff. KC: So when you wereOral having theHistorical Cameos at your house for the gathering, can you tell me about that? What did you do? What was the evening like? BW: Oh. Well, a lot of people [were] working. What we used to do, I used to
always try to, if possible, have my house decorated. Because we had so Rondomany members, you'd only have the meeting about once every two-and-a half years or something like that. So then sometimes you'd have the house decorated.Minnesota I'd do the curtains and the windows, and the floors, and the rugs, and pretty table cloths. Maybe you'd take a day off. Then you would maybe have one or two turkeys and a big whole ham, and maybe a big thing of spaghetti, a big thing. In the summer there would be a big thing
28 of potato salad. I mean a big thing of potato salad. I'm not talking about a little thing like that. You had something like that [refers to a medium size dish on the counter]. You have two or three.
KC: And you're showing me with your hands the size of a bowl. So if y~u had a bowl that was maybe nine to twelve inches across, you'd have two or three. But you're talking about having an eighteen to twenty-four inch big bowl. BW: Yeah, well see, what happened sometimes you would have at least twenty-eight to thirty-some members. I think at one time we got up to
forty members. Well, if you meet once a month, Projectthen you don't have it but once every so many years. You go alphabetically. AndSociety everybody back then drank a lot. KC: So the forty members would mean males and females? BW: Ohyeah. History KC: So that would be eighty people could possibly come? BW: With the husbands, Oralwith the men. Historical KC: The women belonged to the club, but they brought the men to the meeting. BW: Husbands and wives that wanted to. Or if you were single and wanted to
be aRondo member, you could. If it was a man and he wanted to be a member he could. AndMinnesota of course, he brought his girlfriend when he came. KC: Did couples belong to the club? BW: Yes. I would maybe get a half a case or so of whiskey, a bunch of mix. Then you would have this huge thing. The meeting usually started about 9:00
29 [p.m.]. That meant you didn't serve until about 11:00 or 12:00. So then what happened was a lot of the members invited guests, so you might have a couple of extra folks.
So, after the meeting was over, the extra folks - guests would come. Sometimes the folks would have a piano and somebody would start playing the piano. Depending on whose house you were [at], they would roll the rug back and everybody would come and dance. Everybody
would dance. And at that time they were doing the jitterbug16 or something like that and you throw somebodyProject out, you know, and hope they come back. Society KC: I have to describe what you are doing. You're sitting here throwing your arms out-you're throwing people out in a dance style. BW: Yeah, and everybody's dancingHistory. So then after that, then maybe you'd have somebody in the club that had a new piano or an organ. So we jumped in two or three or fourOral cars and Historicalwe'd go over and John or Mary or somebody would play their organ and we'd sit there and we'd sing. Sit on the floor didn't have enough chairs - and we'd sit on the floor and we'd sing Peg of
My H eartY I'm trying to think of some of the oldies we would sing. Rondo I'm talking 2:00 or 3:00 in the morning, yeah. Nobody thought about going home.Minnesota So then, when we'd leave there, then they say, "Let's not go home. It's too early to go home." "So okay, I'll tell you what. Let's go by Jeff's
16 Jitterbug was a popular dance in the early 1940's performed chiefly to boogie-woogie and swing music. This strenuously acrobatic dance consisted of a few standardized steps augmented by twirls, spins, and somersaults. 17 Peg of my Heart was written by Alfred Bryan and Fred Fischer. In 1947, it reached #1 on the charts and was recorded by both the Harmonicats, and Buddy Clark & The Three Sons.
30 house." And he said, "Well, you can come over if you want to." Someone would say, "I'm hungry." "I am too. I've got a dozen eggs." "I've got a loaf of bread." Okay. Different ones went home, got a loaf of bread, got a couple dozen eggs, some bacon and whatever. Came back and the cooks got in Jeff's kitchen and started cooking and they put the record player on. We would have breakfast and we would eat.
So then, a couple of the ladies would go in his bedroom and pull his drawers out and find his pajamas, so then they would model his pajamas and whatever. And he was a single man, soProject he had some real pretty pajamas. So they would model his pajamas. Society KC: Did Jeff have a last name? BW: Yes, but maybe I better not ... We would have breakfast andHistory we would eat. So then we would get ready -the sun's getting ready to come up. Then we said, "Well, maybe we should go home." SoOral we get readyHistorical to leave and everything and can't go home, have to go to church. We're Catholics, right. So we said, "What time is it?" We know Saint Pete's18 has mass at 6:30 [a.m.]. If we hurry, we can go there. So then we'd get in there. Those of us that were Catholic get in Rondothe car and go. There's no sense in sitting in the back, nobody will see. Minnesota
18Saint Peter Claver Catholic Church began as a mission in 1889 initially meeting in a rented church on Market Street in downtown. A new building was erected for the segregated Black congregation at 322 Aurora at Farrington in 1892. After the new school and convent were built, a new church building was completed at 375 Oxford at Saint Anthony in 1957. The church is named for Peter Claver who was canonized by Pope Leo XIII in 1988 for his work with the African Negro of Spanish America.
31 So you get there and you go all the way down the front and you're sitting up there and it's quiet.
The priest's voice is mmmm, and then all of a sudden you started sliding, and just before you keeled over the one sitting next to you would almost knock you off the seat. Oh, that was terrible. We used to do that and then finally we'd get horne and my husband was horne.
I would corne in. If I had a scarf, I would throw my scarf in and I would follow with a leg in the door and say, "Well Projecthoney, I'm back again./I And he said, "Oh, Mrs. Wilson, corne in and have a cupSociety of coffee./I And I was so disappointed. [Laughter]
But we did. We had a lot ofHistory fun. My husband belonged to the club. I paid his dues and he would corne when he was in town once in a while. He tried to stick withOral us one timeHistorical and I think it was 4:30 [a.m.] and we were going someplace else. We hadn't even started to hiccup, and he got tired of us and he told me that so-and-so could bring me horne because he was going, leaving. And he did, he left me. And he went horne and I carne in Rondoabout three hours later or whatever. But he tried to stick with us because he said, "What in the world are you all doing so late? Why are you all so late?"Minnesota
There's not a husband living that would have a wife that would corne horne between 3:00 and 5:30, sometimes 6:30 in the morning and wouldn't
32 want to know what is she doing all night long. So he would go and he would get so sick of us and, as I say, he was very reserved and quiet. But that was just about once a month or whatever. But it wasn't that way every month, but just some months. Everybody just liked to-everybody was working and they had children and they were just letting their hair down. Whatever. KC: Now, I have the illusion that when they came to the party ... BW: To the club meeting. KC: To the club meeting. What happened during the meeting part of the meeting? Project BW: Business. Society KC: What kind of business? BW: Where they're going to have the next affair, how much is it, where is it. Different ones we'd been to, Historysee if we could purchase such-and-such a room on such-and-such a date, how much was it. Are we going to have an orchestra, what orchestra,Oral what Historicalare their rates, how much are they going to charge, and whatever. And then how much money do we have in the treasure. Can we afford this, can we afford that. KC: So they were social clubs, for social activities? BW: Yeah.Rondo So then sometimes, if we didn't have enough money, we would tax. Yeah, tax maybe ten [to] twenty bucks or so per member. KC: Per member.Minnesota
BW: Yeah. Because if you had a nice room, like at the-it's the Radisson19 now. Was it the Radisson then? I'm trying to think.
19 Hotel Radisson was located at 455 71t1 Street, Minneapolis, MN.
33 PC: The Hilton.20 Was it the Hilton? You mean the hotel downtown? BW: Okay. Then we'd have to have-all around the bandstand with the florist, for flowers, and then the band and the singer, yeah. KC: You'd have to rent the band and the singer. Who were some of the bands that you used? BW: I don't know. I knew we used them, but I don't remember. It's been so long ago. And usually for different affairs, we didn't always have the same groups. KC: Was it a lot of the local bands though? BW: Yeah, we would get them through the union.Project KC: The Musicians' Union?21 Society BW: Yeah. Well, they couldn't play if they didn't belong to the union. PC: You heard of Percy Hughes' band,22 right? BW: Who? History PC: Percy Hughes from Minneapolis. BW: Oh yes, yes. Oral Historical KC: Percy Hughes was one of the bands that you'd listen to? BW: Yes, we did. KC: And when you were talking about decorating the house, were you talking Rondolike there would be a theme and you'd decorate it for that, or you'd make sure your house was all ... BW: Oh, Minnesotano, no. We wanted to get it painted and make the house clean.
20 Saint Paul Hilton Hotel, which was located at 11 E. Kellogg Boulevard, became a Radisson Hotel in 1975176. 21 The Musicians' Union was located in Saint Paul , between 71il & 81il Street , next to the Tower Theatre. The union was fully integrated. • 22 Percy Hughes was a pioneer jazz "big band" leader after the war. He broke the "color line" for Black bands in the Minnesota.
34 Have the house clean because we were having company. So we did the windows, we did the curtains and we decorated so the room would be clean. We had the bathroom [the] same as when we had out of town company. Ever we had out of town company we always painted the room, did the curtains. KC: How often did you paint? BW: Usually, sometimes about once every two years. And then after that, then I got so I would paint maybe once a year, our club got smaller, yeah, and then not too much after that. No more though. KC: No more. Project BW: No more [than] once a •year painting. Society KC: Mrs. Wilson, besides the clubs, did you go out at all to Minneapolis or other places to hear music and bands and dance? BW: We went all over, yes. But my Historything was traveling. I was never that-even now, I guess I'm surprised at the things we did. Things I did because my interest was never here,Oral because Historical I never liked it. My interest was always getting away, going somewhere else. To me the grass was always greener anywhere but here. And in the summertime, now everybody loves Minnesota. Those that [go] away, the snowbirds, they love to come back to MinnesotaRondo for the summer, yeah. As soon as the weather gets nice, they can't waitMinnesota to get the hell out of here. Don't like to stay around. KC: Now when you would travel, would you travel by train or car? BW: I like to travel by car because I like to stop. And everybody knew that I liked to travel by car. So I always got more invitations to take trips with them because they wanted me to help them drive. And I never took trips
35 with them because they always said, "Well, you know Bunny, with you
helping to drive now, we should be able to make good time. If we leave here at 4:00 [p.m.], we should be pullin' in over there about no later than 8:00 or 8:30." That killed it. I said, "No way,eno way, count me out, no. I like to stop." KC: You like to stop and take your time?
BW: What was it the first time I drove to California? It took us so long to get to
California. I thought I was going to have to call and get an extension on my vacation because it was taking us so long to get there. PC: You took Kim and Steve. I didn't go with youProject that time. BW: Well, you were working. Society PC: Yeah. KC: What year was this? PC: 1965, '66. History KC: Now back in the early days, your early days in Minnesota, 1949 to ... BW: She loves that period, doesn'tOral she? [Laughter]Historical PC: Yeah, that's historic. KC: [laughs] So those first ten years that you lived in Minnesota, did you take car trips then, too? BW: RondoAlways went to Chicago because there was always something going on with my friends.
KC: In thoseMinnesota first ten years, how did you get around mostly? BW: Took the bus. We didn't have a car for a while. Then my husband, of all things, he liked a 1936 Chevrolet. Every time he wanted to get a car, I'd get so happy, and he'd want a '36 Chevrolet. And every time we got ready
36 to go somewhere, the car wasn't ready to go. We were ready and the car wouldn't start. We were all dressed to go somewhere and then the car wouldn't start. I remember that. That's why I got so mad when he wanted
to buy that property up in Finlayson.23 I'd go to Chicago like some folks go to Minneapolis. I did.
PC: I grew up in Chicago. BW: I would come in from work on Friday and we'd throw the kids in the car and the next morning we would be in Chicago. And then if we decided, we would leave Chicago and go on up to Michigan. Some folks didn't go to Anoka as much as I went to Chicago. Project KC: Was that unusual for other people in the community orSociety were you unusual to go to Chicago so much? Were there other people that were from Chicago or other places and they would go a lot? BW: We were unusual and I'm goingHistory to be frank with you. I never paid that much attention to what the other folks were doing. I'm not being funny, that's true. I was so Oralbusy working Historical and kind of doing our thing. PC: But the kids, there were about maybe four or five kids that I knew of in the community that would go away for the summer. A lot of them went south to visit their grandparents, but I would always go to Chicago to see myRondo aunt. So I don't know how unusual it was for grownups, but there was about fiveMinnesota or six of us in the community that went away in the summer. BW: I do know a lot of folks didn't travel like we did, the parents didn't. They didn't take their kids like I took mine. A lot of them didn't. KC: How many children do you have Mrs. Wilson?
23 Finlayson is located in Pine County, MN, north of the metropolitan area.
37 BW: Now, I have three. Always say I have six, three boys and three girls. PC: She had four kids, one died. My older brother, Butchie, he's up there on the wall, too, at the very top. KC: So when you moved here in 1949, you moved here with four children? BW: Two. Pat and her brother. KC: Pat and Butchie. And then two children were born here? BW: Yes. PC: Ten years later. KC: Ten years later, you were partying a bunch in between there. BW: Tim came next and Steve's the youngest. Project KC: What was it like raising children here in this community?Society BW: I guess it was okay. It wasn't bad. That's why we moved here. That's the reason he [my husband] was here. Because my husband didn't want the kids to grow up in ChicagoHistory and I will say that's the main reason I stayed here. Because when my husband died in 1958, all my friends had a fit because I stayed.Oral They wanted Historical me to come back to Chicago. They didn't want me to stay in this chicken-shit, one-horse town. And they said, "Bunny, this is your chance. You can get the hell out of here and come on let's go. You don't have to worry about a job. We'll see you get a job, just Rondocome on and leave."
AndMinnesota so then I thought. And I happened to think that's the reason my husband moved here, because he didn't want the kids growing up in Chicago. He wanted them growing up in a nice place where they wouldn't have to-but then when you go to Chicago there were kids in
38 different neighborhoods that had to pay gangs so much a day or either they would beat them up, kill them or break their legs or whatever, yeah. So this was hard to beat to raise children, very nice place. KC: What made it a good place to raise children? BW: Well, you didn't have the gangs for one thing. The kids had disagreements. You're going to have that anyway, but it definitely didn't
have the frustration here with raising children like you had other places. It
was nice. What do you think Pat?
PC: You know, there's a saying that goes, "It takes a whole village to raise a child." I was a village child. When my dad died,Project people pitched in. Mom had four kids and all of a sudden she was left alone withSociety four kids and I always say I was a village child in the sense I had a lot of people that
helped. Remember when I was a debutante. Miss Regal did my shoes for me. History
In other words, I hadOral a lot of Historicalmoms that kind of helped raise me and helped my mother, assisted her in whatever she may need for us. Whatever they did for their kids, they would always take one of us. So it was kind of a village and we became village kids when Daddy died and theyRondo just kind of ... BW: It was so cute. I was so shocked when my husband died and the people that cameMinnesota and wanted me to give my kids away. "I'll take the girl./I "I'll take a boy./I "I'll take this./I I looked at them like I thought they were
crazy. And I said, "What, I'm not dead yet./I I said, "My husband died. I
39 didn't go anywhere." And all of a sudden they wanted to take the children. KC: People from the same community wanted to take the kids?
BW: Yeah. They came over and said, "Oh Bunny, you're gonna be by yourself and he left you with four kids." I think Steve-was he two? Tim was
three, something. Pat was twelve, Butchie was thirteen going on fourteen. So I had about an eight or ten-year span between the two sets. The same dad, but I just thought I was through. I knew I was through and all of a sudden my husband said, "Damn, every time I drop my pants, Bunny's pregnant." I thought, oh, because we thoughtProject we were through. But, no we weren't. Society KC: What are some more examples of how you were a village kid? PC: How was I a village kid? KC: So how were you a village Historykid, Pat? What were things that the community helped with after your dad died in 1958 when you were twelve?
PC: The first job I had, I used to baby-sit. I used to baby-sit next door you Oral Historical l know, for Cheryl. And then one summer I'd baby sit for Mrs. Goodin. He [Mr. Goodin] had a little teenage place for young people, called the The
Pivot.24 And that was right there where the VFW25 is now. Rondo Yvonne Sims and I, pretty much during grade school, were pretty tight. I spentMinnesota a lot of time at the Sims . I always looked at Mr. Sims like my father. And Ms. Sims was like my second mother. I spent a lot of time there.
24 The Pivot was a teenage malt shop I jut box place located at 820 Concordia. 25 The Twin Star chapter of the Veterans of Foreign Wars is predominantly a Black chapter. It obtained a charter in 1962 and opened in 1964 at 820 Concord.
40 Some of your ladies in your Cameo Club were good to me. I just remember-I call it having a lot of morns. I just felt nurtured by people in my neighborhood. People that would corne over to the house, very nurtured, you know? We didn't have a lot of money and as a matter of fact, I always say I carne up poor. KC: So what about church? What church did you go to? BW: Saint Peter Claver. PC: My father was a Baptist, he went to Pilgrirn,26 and we were Catholic. KC: So how was Saint Peter Claver when you movedProject into town? Were the people pretty friendly to you? Society BW: I tell you people were lovely. The people were lovely, they were. I was just mentioning before about the salaries, how the Blacks didn't seem to have the freedom I had in Chicago,History but the people here were extremely friendly. They were so nice to me. They just welcomed me and my family. And some of them Oralare still- afterHistorical all these years, are still friends. Some of them are in a nursing horne. KC: So what were the kinds of things that you would be involved with at the church? Was the church an important part of your life here? BW: I'veRondo never made any church an important part of my life. PC: It was anMinnesota important part of mine. I was in the youth group. I sang in the kids' choir. KC: What was the [name ofit?]
26 Pilgrim Baptist Church was first organized as a prayer group before 1863, and formally organized as a church November 15, 1866. Their first house of worship was constructed in 1870 at 12th and Cedar Streets in Saint Paul, and it moved in 1918 to the current location at 732 W. Central Avenue, Saint Paul.
41 PC: Sodality, I think. It was like a little youth religious group out of Saint Peter
Claver. I sang in the children's choir. I call it the youth choir. My brothers
were altar boys. I remember working in the kitchen. They had a kitchen
cafeteria downstairs. I remember helping in there, in the kitchen cafeteria.
I just connected with Saint Peter Claver a lot. My mother probably didn't,
maybe, other than Sundays. But I'm just saying I was involved.
BW: I paid tuition.
PC: Right. KC: Was that at Saint Peter Claver School? Project BW: Yes. And I went to church all the time, but I fell outSociety with the nuns. KC: [chuckling] Now how did you fall out with the nuns?
BW: We would have PTA meetings and like a nut I
would go and then beforeHistory the meeting the
parents would get together and they would want to-was Oralit yours or HistoricalButch's graduation breakfast. We were going to have a breakfast and the nuns didn't want us to have the
breakfast and so the parents said, "Yes, we want Rondoto have a breakfast for the graduates. They will Pat's graduate and after the graduation they will come high school graduation picture downMinnesota in the basement and we'll have a
breakfast." The parents would cook the breakfast and serve the graduates.
42 Well, they got to the PTA meeting, everything was fine then the nuns got
up and said they didn't think we should have the breakfast and those old
coattail mothers and fathers got up and said, "Well you know, if sister-so and-so don't want us to have the breakfast, we shouldn't have the
breakfast." And I stood up and I said, "How dare you sit up and say that
just because she's a sister and she don't want us to do this." And I said, "We're the parents, we're the one that's paying tuition here and they're
not going to be doing anything but sittin' around finding fault." And I
said, "So when we have the breakfast, the parents are going to be preparing the breakfast and serving the kids,Project and then cleaning up afterwards." I said, "And all the sisters are gonna do isSociety get the leftovers." I walked out and I never went back. KC: Did you go to Hallie Q. Brown Center?27
PC: I did. History KC: Did you have much to do with Hallie Q Brown? BW Not until I became aOral senior [citizen]. Historical PC: I used to sneak and go. They had a canteen on Friday nights and I used to
go with a couple of my girlfriends.
KC: You had to sneak out to go dance? PC: MyRondo mother was real strict on me. KC: Were youMinnesota real strict on her?
27 Hallie Q. Brown Community Center was opened in 1929 as a community center specifically to serve the Black community when the Black YWCA closed in 1928. Hallie Q, as it is affectionately known , has served all ages through child care, youth and senior clubs , athletics, music and social events. The original location was in the Union Hall at Aurora and Kent Streets. In 1972, Hallie relocated in the Martin Luther King Building at 270 Kent Street at Iglehart in Saint Paul. The center's namesake was an educator who pioneered the movement of Black women's clubs in the late 1800's.
43 PC: Ask anybody. BW: Strict, yeah. Everybody would say yes, and I'd say no in a minute. I admit it, yeah. KC: How come you were so strict on her? BW: I was one of the lucky or unlucky ones to have a-kind of an overdeveloped daughter. One that was a little bit ahead of everybody, whatever. She was extremely popular - very, very attractive. The girls liked her as well as the fellas. She got along well with all the adults, the
grownups, and she was just a little ahead of everyone, so when I said no, I would just kind of slow her down because sheProject was going like a racehorse. Society I made a mistake of giving her a birthday party. She was sixteen years old. Supposed to have sixteen people, a person for year. Her little girlfriend was going to help her. ByHistory word of mouth, they called all her friends in Minneapolis. Friends in Minneapolis got in cars and came over here and wanted to comeOral to the party. Historical We had a list of names and so they raised so much sand out in the whachamacallit, some of the neighbors called the police. That was the last party. She was popular in Saint Paul, Minneapolis, the suburbs, everything. She knew everybody. Everybody Rondoknew her. Everybody loved her. PC: You know what? I wasn't popular, I just liked people. All kinds of people. BW: AndMinnesota they liked you otherwise they wouldn't come. She was so popular, very popular. And my friends idolized her.
44 I was so lucky. I had girlfriends who thought they were her mother instead of me. They just loved her to death. She's been very, very much loved. PC: That was part of the village that I was
talking about. KC: The village helping to raise you.
When you came here, when you would see professionals, would you find professionals in the Black community or Project would you have to go to the White Society community to see the professionals? BW: You're talking about professional Blacks? Pat's eighth grade graduation KC: Doctors, lawyers? History BW: I think they were around. PC: Dr. England28 was ourOral doctor. HeHistorical was Black. Dr. Abrams 29 was a doctor. He was Black. KC: You first came to Iglehart and then you moved to? BW: 892. KC: 892.Rondo Were you living at 892 Rondo when the freeway came through. BW: No. I live were I am now on Carroll.
KC: So you hadMinnesota left the Rondo area before you had to move for the freeway. BW: When we lived on Rondo, our next door neighbor and I, we used to have coffee every morning. So my husband had this old 1936 Chev and he
28 Dr. Rodney England was a physician located at 1137 Lowry in the Medical Arts Building, Saint Paul, MN. 29 Dr. Alex Abrams was a physician located at 624 ~ Selby Avenue, Saint Paul , MN
45 would be out on the road. So my girlfriend would call and she'd say, "Is
hubby home?" 1'd say, "No." "Come on over for a cup of coffee." I'd say,
"Okay."
So I would look outside, up and down Rondo and no cars were coming. And there was nobody walking on the street, and I'd have my robe and
my gown on, and I'd run out to the car and I'd get in the car, start the
motor and 1'd make a U-turn because she lived across the street. 1'd make
a U-turn, park right there, look up and down the street, run in the house and drink coffee. Then I was wondering howProject in the world I was going to get back out to [the] car and make a U-turn andSociety get back in the house without anybody seeing me. That's crazy, the things you do. I was in my gown and robe. [Laughter] KC: What else did Rondo A venueHistory look like then when you were living on Rondo? This would have been in the early 1950's? BW: I moved in 1956Oral. I been in myHistorical house since '56. And I moved on Rondo in '53. So three years.
KC: So, was it a quiet street then? Were there a lot of people walking?
BW: Well, it was quiet. All the streets were quiet because you didn't have the ... PC: RondoWell, Rondo was kind of like a thoroughfare. BW: It was like a thoroughfare because you had bus stops. PC: I rememberMinnesota when the freeway went through, we lost a lot of our friends.
Jackie Moffett used to baby sit for me. BW: Well, it made a difference. Because everybody-they took that middle
block out. And my little girlfriend that lived across the street, I used to
46 make the U-turn, she had to sell her house. She had to leave because her block across the street, they took that whole block out, and so she moved
over on Fuller. KC: What was your husband's name Mrs. Wilson? BW: John Walter, but the family called him Walter. KC: What was his personality like, besides being reserved? What did you like about him?
BW: Very, very reserved. Very quiet, a very good friend. If you got to be his friend, a very good friend. A very nice person. Yeah, he was okay. It's been so long. I guess he was okay. I married him.Project KC: What attracted you to him? Society BW: Oh boy. Way back then, I think he just walked across the room and I thought he was the cutest thing since sliced bread. He would corne around and my fingers and my toesHistory would twinkle and whatever, my heart would pitter pat, whatever. KC: He died very young.Oral Historical BW: How old was he? Forty-two. I think it was forty-two.
KC: What happened? BW: I think he had it before. I heard from his brother Tony. He comes up here quiteRondo often. Tony said their father had--I think he had asthma. My husband had asthmatic bronchitis. But they said it was triggered because he workedMinnesota in the mail car and he worked around so much dust with the
paper.
47 The mail, the magazines, enclosed in the car, and whatever. So he was taking all kinds of medication and then it got so that his dosages were getting stronger and stronger. And he had black spots on his back and sometimes on his chest and occasionally on his arms, from his medication.
Then he wanted to have an allergy test. Being a veteran he went to the V A hospital,3DSo they were going to give him an allergy test and he got in this
room. I always said it was the paint in the room. He got in the room and he had an asthma attack or something and instead of getting better, he got worse. Project Society And so then I went to visit him. No, I was getting ready to go visit him. They called and I wasn't thinking about anything and so the doctor told me his name and he said, "I'mHistory sorry I have to tell you, but your husband has just expired in the room." And I said, "Oh no, I haven't been long left there, No he didn't."Oral And heHistorical said, "Yes he did." And I said, "Oh my God." Then I jumped in the car and went back out there.
So, it was quite a-I was so shocked. And I never had so many-well yes, I Rondodid to. It just seemed like almost every other friend I had in Chicago came. KC: Wow.
BW: That'sMinnesota like when my son died in Vietnam and they shipped his body back
from Vietnam and I had to set a date. I think it was December 28 th or something like that. The funeral director was pushing me to set a date and
30 Veteran's Medical Center located at One Veteran 's Drive, Minneapolis, MN , near Fort Snelling and the Minneapolis Saint Paul Airport.
48 I hated to set a date because the navy hadn't given me a date yet to when the body was due. I didn't know when the body would come and I was hating to set a date and he wouldn't be here. And so then I did. So he did come. That was a bad time back then. Had an awful lot of folks that came. I was shocked. And then I was shocked because so many of my friends here opened their homes to the people that came. KC: Both when your husband died and when your son died? BW: Yeah, they gave them rooms and had breakfast for them in the morning.
They would bringing hams and turkeys and whatever. It was just before New Year's for my son. One lady, she broughtProject the turkey over but she didn't have to stay home. She cooked it in my kitchen.Society And she was walking back and she was tasting the turkey. It was cute. My oldest son, very nice kid. I know people have a tendency when peopleHistory die, they canonize them. They make them saints. But my son was a nice person.Oral He wasn'tHistorical a rough kid. KC: What was his name?
BW: John. He was a different kettle of fish. He likedRondo to dance, could dance. He liked classical music, he liked operas. He never
liked toMinnesota buy anything on sale. If it was on sale, leave it. Leave it in the store. John "Butch" Wilson, Jr. KC: In other words, your son liked nice things? 1944 -1963
49 BW: Yes. He liked to dress well. I mean, he liked to dress well. He liked clothes. His dad was a hunter, fisher, country man. My son didn't like anything like that. He was a nice kid. He had a lot of dances and
debutante 1:;, aIls and stuff. And he was always a, what do you call it, an escort or something like that. KC: How old was your son when he passed?
BW: Twenty-one. In Vietnam.31 KC: I'm sorry.
BW: That happens, yeah. It was December 10, 1963. Life goes on. KC: What is your passion? Project BW: Travel. Society KC: What are the fun places you have traveled to? BW: There's been so many. KC: What are some? History BW: I loved my trip to-well, I had two trips to Mexico. I had four trips to Hawaii. Loved OralHawaii and IHistorical love a cruise. KC: A cruise is one of your favorite things? BW: The most favorite thing! KC: What do you like about a cruise? BW: RondoThe laziness, the food, doing what you want when you want. You can dress like Miss America or you don't have to dress at all. Just wonderful! Yeah,Minnesota love a cruise. And then of course the sightseeing, but I like to
sightsee. A lot of people don't like to sightsee. It gets on their nerves and I
31 The Vietnam War lasted over a twenty-five year period until 1973 with an estimated two million lives lost.
50 like to sightsee. That's why when I took trips it took me so long to get
there, so long to get back.
And usually, the kids had as much if not more to see on our trips going and corning than they did when we got to where we were going. Like when we went to California old Route 66, what was it? The Painted Desert, the Meteor Crater. I don't know where they are now. Petrified
Forest, whatever. And then of course we went over and saw the Grand Canyon [in Arizona], which I thought was fantastic. KC: What year was this? Project BW: First year 1966, New York '67, then '68 California again,Society 69 - I'm trying to think, I think Hawaii. KC: In '66, '67, '68 were you taking... BW: Every year I took them, took theHistory kids with me until they got so they were way in school and couldn't go. I was the only one that could drive, and I think about how stupidOral I was. DoHistorical you think I'd do that today? Oh, no. I'd be petrified. Oh, and I look on TV and I see those long, lonely highways and the things that I used to pass and whatever. And I think, "Oh, my God, was I that stupid to get out there and drive by myself." Rondo Couldn'tMinnesota change a tire. Had a new car, couldn't change a tire. Drive it out of Midway Chevrolet,32 go to the house, put the bags in the trunk, the kids in the backseat, get in there and I'm on my way. Couldn't change a tire, couldn't do a thing. I think about how stupid that was.
32 Midway Chevrolet car dealership is located at 1389 University Avenue West, Saint Paul , MN .
51 Yeah, where did we have trouble twice? Arizona. That was a new car -
Chevrolet, pretty blue one. Always got the new cars, drove them out, put the bags in, threw the kids in and flew. Nobody did that like me.
Everybody's got to break the car in to see how it works and whatever. Midway Chevrolet, filling station, fill up, home, suitcase, kids, AAA33
because we didn't know where we were going 'til we got there. AAA,
then we'd decide where we were going, then hit the highway. And I often
think how stupid that was. Project We were in Arizona, the car gave out of water or Societysomething, and there I was. So, one man stopped and got out. I saw him look in his glove compartment, get his gun out, and then he came back to see what was
wrong. Because see, folks Historywere holding people up, you know, and so I
told him I was out of water, whatever. So he got his wife's canteen. It trickled in. He said,Oral "I don't Historical know where the next stop is, but at the next filling station I'll send them back for you. Now if they can't come back, I'll
come back, or I'll send somebody back for you." I said, "Okay, can I give
you some money?" "Why?" he said, "No, no, no, let's wait and see what Rondohappens."
So, Minnesotasure enough, I think about almost two hours, about an hour and forty
five minutes later, here come a little truck with a little bed and it had
about eight great big jugs of water. So he came and he poured it in my
33Automobile Association of America is a membership organization that provides emergency road service, travel planning, and travel guides.
52 radiator. Everything was fine. And I asked him how much and he said, "Seven dollars./I I thought he was going to say seventy or a hundred. And he said seven. I had the seventy-five, I had the hundred and seventy, did not have the seven dollars. I had to go to his filling station and get change
and leave it there. I thought, how stupid that was. I think the smallest I had, which was stupid, I think was a fifty. He said seven dollars. That wasn't too bad because I went to the filling station and it was kind of like a little gift shop/filling station.
Whenever I traveled, I always got a cup and Projectsaucer or plate for every state, whatever, I went in. So she had a bunch of plates.Society I think they were $6.95 a piece. They're $12.95 and $13.95 now, the same plates. But they were $6.95 and I think I got about six or seven of the different states we had been through, yeah. So sheHistory didn't do too badly.
And I left him a tip,Oral a nice tip, andHistorical paid the seven bucks. The other time fifteen miles-we'd been all over New York. Fifteen miles from home the other side, across the bridge over there by-what's that? Hudson? KC: Hudson, Wisconsin. BW: HadRondo a flat tire. KC: And you don't know how to change a tire. BW: I'm comingMinnesota into Saint Paut here this man on the other side going the other way, he stops, crosses all the way over and wants to know what's wrong and can he help me, and I said, "Yes./I And I said, "I've got a flat tire. I'm getting ready to send the kids. The kids and I are gonna walk up to the
53 filling station." He said, "That's all right lady. I'll fix your tire for you." And I said, "I'm so gratefut I'll pay you." He said, "No, no, no." He took the spare out, changed the tire, put the spare back [in the trunk]. And he said, "Now have a safe trip home." And I said, "Please let me pay you." And he said, "No, no, no. You just go ahead. Just go home safe." He crossed back over, got into his car and went off. And I thought-many a time I've asked God to bless that man.
If I saw him I would not know what he looked like. I only saw him that one time. But I have just blessed him many Projecttimes. He was so good to me and I thought, say what you want to, but that was reallySociety God. KC: Mrs. Wilson, what was your sense of the community? BW: You're asking the wrong one, I couldn't care less about the community. You want something I can'tHistory give you. I had friends, we communicated. We got along very well. I knew more people. They were very friendly. KC: You knew moreOral people than Historicalyou did in Chicago? BW: Oh, no, no. I had been born in Chicago and I knew folks on the South Side, the West Side, the East Side - all over Chicago, yes. KC: So a sense of community wasn't something you looked for in Saint Paul? RondoWhat else do you remember about those days on Rondo? BW: No. I try to forget those days as much as I could, until you-bringing it all back.Minnesota KC: Now why were you trying to forget all of that?
54 BW: Well, that's in the past. I'm eighty-two years old. I couldn't care less what happened twenty, thirty, fifty years ago, yeah. That doesn't sound
reasonable to you? KC: It does. I happen to find understanding different periods of time interesting. So it interests me and I respect that it doesn't interest others.
BW: I respect that. That's fine. KC: Anything else you want to tell me? BW: No, no. I've told you too much already. Project Society
History
Oral Historical
Rondo Minnesota
Bernice Wilson's family in 2004
55 wore a large orchid corsage. CAMEO CLUB Rickey Gambol and Russell Ba Newspaper Article lenger Jr. roned down the white carpet for the debs to walk on. and Spencer Smith :l nd Michael Richardson assist ed the guests wh en they arriv ed at the party. CAMEO CLUB HOLD The debs, all . in white deb gowns, entered the ballroom SECOND ANNUAL BALL from the stage which was a By Estyr Bradley Peake dorned with cibotium ferns and flowers. Beautiful and well-poi The second annual Cameo So sed. Miss Marva Ann (Dim cial Club Cotillion Ball was ples) Boyd, daughter of Mrs. given in the Grand Ballroom Beatrice Boyd and Mr. Rufus of the Hotel Lowry on Friday ..Boyd, ~"",,,,,,,_... _ &1 evening of last week. About 800 her entrance. She wo re (1" nylon guests witnessed the beautiful net. It was fashi oned with an presentati
56 Moffatt, Eva Mae Neal, Ursula ,I Lone Ponder, Joanne Carol , i Richardson and Delores Inez I i Smiley . • I The debs danced the Minuet ed with their escorts and then had th , the first dance of tlie evening, Tll a waltz, with their fathers. 10 At this 'point, Mer Carter's CAMEO CLUB ••••• a Band took over for the danc ing. Promptly at twelve, mid- (Con.tinued from Page 2) J ! of the net at the top of the J night, a grand march was 1 i held, led by the heads of the t I bodice. The very fu 11 skirt was ( Masonic family in the state, r v,dorned at the hipline with } ." Mr. and Mrs. John R. Law- three rows of ruffles and tiny 1\ '- , rence. Mrs. Lawrence wore a bands of satin. She wore elbow , ball gown of blue and white ,- t' length nylon gloves, clear plas- '\ cotton print and an orchid cor d tic and kid slippers and rhine sage, the gift of the Ca m e 0 stone jewelry. Her escort was n s Club, Mr . Ma urice Charles Duke. s Champagne punch was dis- • L- Eighth deb was Miss Janet J peProjectn sed throughout the even- Onetta Walton, daughter 0 f v ing. d _ Mr. and Mrs. Albert Walton of t Mrs. HaSocietyrold Richardson was !Il _ Minneapolis. She was attrac- t )f t he chairman. S he wore a beige _ tive in a nylon net over taffeta. ) 1- and gold sheath with a large bow at the back and gold slip e The bodice was adorned at the v. i front with daisies that formed pel'S Other committee members .g in addition to Mrs. Richardson 1 a V and the very full skirt was HistoryIe and Mr. Whitaker were: Mes- r ruffle-tierred. She wore a ,tiar a dames Harry Massengill, An y. _ in her long hair, nylon gloves thony Mazingo, J ames Rideaux, n D and rhinestone silver s t r ap Ru ssell Balenger and Mr. Har- ,_ slippers. Her escort was Oral M r. Historicalold Richard son. Officers of the 10 I . _ Pa ul Clark.' 11 ' c ub mtroduced before the presentat ion were: Mr. Carl .. e White peonies over palm s. Claibourne, vice - president ; ;_ branches were held by th e s. 2 1956 debs forming the floral s. Mrs. Margaret Sullivan, re cording secretary; Mrs. AD s arch. They all wore pastel ball 'I, d gowns. In this group were the drew Brent, corresponding sec- retary ; Mrs. Kenneth Edwards, n Misses LillianRondo Margaret Balen e ger, Beverly Jean Banham, I Sykes, treasurer. .- Thelma Gene Black, Margie The debutantes, their es'corts, e Lorraine Brown,Minnesota Beulah J os and several others were enter- ,- ephine Clemons, Ilene Con s stance Davis, Loretta Mae ~s ;1 Grant, Ant 0 i net t e (Toni) I hart ave. 1 Hughes, Della Rose St. Clair of r . Among the out-of-town guests f al at the party were Mr. and' Mrs. 6: 1- Mil wa ukee, Jacqueline Marie • James Young of Chicago, aunt and uncle of Marva Boyd, Mrs. J ames Sisson and two children, Ii e James J r., and Toby Lynn of as Chicago, Mr. and Mrs. Lee W. th Harris of St, Albans, N. Y., 1Y Miss Myra Reed of Mississippi. IW