Transcription of an oral history interview with Melvin Whitfield Carter Senior

February 19 and November 28,2003 at at Mr. Carter's home, Saint Paul, Minnesota

by Kateleen Hope Cavett with Mariah Sheldon, Hamline University Student

as part of

HAND in HAND's RONDO ORAL HISTORY PROJECTProject Saint Paul, Minnesota Society At age 79, Melvin Carter Senior describes the Rondo Avenue of his childhood. He talks of the children in the community knowing when notorious bank robber John Dillinger was hiding out in the Rondo community. He shares his father's history of playing in circusHistory bands before corning to Minnesota, and how his father began musical groups for the youth in the community, inspiring several to become professional musicians. His father and brother also provided live music at "chicken shacks" around town before World War II. Carter goes on to speakOral of his ownHistorical experience playing in a Navy band during World War II. He describes the postwar musical scene playing in musical groups for local social clubs. Carter also worked as a redcap at the railroad station and remembers how they would steer Black visitors to boarding houses instead of hotels so their feelings wouldn't be hurt. When the railroad business began to decline,Rondo he moved to Saint Paul School District. Mr. Carter became the first Black to achieve a "Chief Engineer License" and was head engineer at Humboldt High School for the last five years of his twenty-seven years of service to the school district.Minnesota He continued to supplement his family's income through his music, playing regularly for the larger community. After his family, music was always his primary love. Mr. Carter continued to play in musical groups through the time of this interview. This is a transcript of taped interviews, edited slightly for clarity. A signed release is on file from Mr. Carter.

3 Project Society

History

Oral Historical

Rondo Minnesota

8 KC: Kateleen Hope Cavett MC: Melvin Carter

KC: We are in Saint Paul at Mr. Carter's home. Can you give me your full name? MC: Melvin Whitfield Carter Senior.!

KC: You so graciously showed us some history of your family. It was your parents that first came to Saint Paul? You had properties on Rondo, right?

MC: From my first remembrance we lived at 305 Rondo and that was when I went to a Cathedral Grade SchooF through the Projectdoings of Saint Peter Claver Church,3 which I still belong to. They sent me thereSociety and I've always been grateful for that all my life. I went to Cathedral School, which was one through eight, and I started there about the fourth grade. Before that I went to Neill School,4 which wasHistory a grade school. There is senior housing on that land now. They tore down the ugly red brick building and built a nice new complex there.Oral Historical You gotta lead me on the way you want me to do this. KC: Okay, I will. MC: My dads came here. He was a musician and been traveling Rondo

1 Melvin W. Carter, Sr. , was born September 8, 1923. 2 Cathedral School was located at 238 Kellogg Blvd . and Mulberry Street. The school closed in the 1950's. The school building became the MinnesotaHayden Center-Catholic Diocese Education Center. 3Saint Peter Claver Catholic Church began in 1889. A new building was erected for the segregated Black congregation at 322 Aurora at Farrington in 1892. After the new school and convent were built, a new church building was completed at 375 Oxford at Saint Anthony in 1957. 4 Neill School , located on the northeast corner of Laurel and Farrington, was named for the first Board of Education member, Reverend E. D. Neill, The school was built in 1870 with eight classrooms. In 1884 the original building was demolished and replaced with a building costing $28,435.21 and housing 450 students. In 1962 the property was sold to the city for redevelopment as housing for the elderly, and are now known as the Neill Apartments. 5 Father Mym Grundy Carter was born September 30, 1877 and passed away November 25, 1958.

9 with the circus for years and was interested in music all his life. My father played with several different circus bands. He played the cornet. I have a

picture from 1932 when my Uncle Mack6 played with a Barnum and Bailey Circus band. Another picture my uncle is in is with Arthur A. Wright's Band and Minstrels with the Sparks Show from 1914. My dad did the most traveling with Professor P. G. Lowrey's Colored Band and Troubandours with the Forepaugh Sells Bros. United Shows. I have a picture from 1904. My Uncle Mack is between the two woman singers and my dad is to the left of the singer with the longer . And about the time the Titanic7 sank the whole show went overseasProject right after that. And my dad quit because he was scared of drowning. HeSociety quit the show. What year was that? 1912, wasn't it?

He would receive a lot of correspondenceHistory from the shows he was in after he quit. Guys would write him and send him pictures. Then the show would corne through here onceHistorical in a while and he would take the whole family to see theOral show and meet all the fellows he used to travel with. And then he would get pictures. KC: You said your dad carne here because your uncles were here. Rondo Minnesota

6 Mack Dade Carter was born 1879 and passed away May 3, 1943. 7The British luxury passenger liner Titanic sank on April 14-15, 1912, en route to New York City from Southampton , England, during its maiden voyage . The vessel sank with a loss of about 1,500 lives.

10 Project Society Prof. P. G. Lowrey's Colored Band and Troubandours with the Forepaugh Sells Bros. United Shows - 1904 Front row: Mym Carter is second from left, Mac Carter fourth from left

MC: He wanted somewhere to go andHistory settle down where he could find work. I had one uncle who was working for the train station at the Union Depots

in Saint Paul. He wasOral what they callHistorical a redcap9. And another one working at the packinghouse1o in South Saint Paul when it was very good work for unskilled people. So he came here and found work right away. I am not sure which place he worked because it was before I was born. I am the

onlyRondo child born here. I think he got here in 1916 after a fire burned Paris Minnesota

8 Saint Paul Union Depot is located at 214 East Fourth Street on the southeast side of downtown . 9 Redcap Porters worked at the Saint Paul Union Depot. The uniform included a red cap, so as to be easily identifiable by passengers. Redcaps' salaries were minimal and they supported their families mostly through tips. Responsibilities included carrying baggage for travelers, mopping floors, polishing brass, parking cars, and cleaning offices. 10 Armour Packing Plant was located on Armour Avenue, about two blocks east of Concord Avenue in South Saint Paul. The plant was open from 1919 to 1979, and covered about 40 acres. Because this was one of the few industries that hired Blacks, many from Rondo took the streetcar to South Saint Paul.

11 Texas.u I was born in 1923. My folks were married in Texas. Ma said he was in the best band in Paris, Texas, that everybody always raved about. He was a big dog there.

I would like to get something recorded about him because he was a very important person in my life. He gave me direction, which was hard to come by in those days. So I would like to get something on record about him.

KC: Let's talk about your dad. MC: Well, he was the most important person to meProject because my mother 12 worked and he was a cripple. He got hurt in a car accident when I was a kid. He broke his leg, broke his kneecap, so he couldn'tSociety do any physical kind of work. He wasn't qualified to do anything other professionally than play music. So we spentHistory a lot of time together. To compensate he got a truck [and] we hauled furniture, hauled rubbish and ashes. I would do the work and he would do the bossing. He also bought a half an acre down on the MississippiOral River, Historical which is not an airport. KC: Saint Paul Downtown Airport?13

MC: Yes, just below there, where they are rebuilding all of that now. At that Rondotime a lot of people lived along the river because they could live there tax free, and there's a lot of little shacks there. And you could get the land for Minnesota 11 According to Mary Carter's account, Paris, Texas burned March 21 , 1916. Leaves were being burned and the wind quickly spread the fire. A large portion of the town burned to the ground. Mary Carter reports two men died, and many lost all their belongings, including Mary and her husband Mym Carter. Few had insurance to help them rebuild and many left town . In June Mr. Carter joined his brother in Saint Paul and Mrs. Carter and the children followed in August. This was the second great fire to destroy most of Paris, Texas. The first was August 2, 1877, when three quarters of businesses and many residences were destroyed. 12 Mother Mary Whitfield Carter was born July 7, 1886 and passed away July 14, 1982. 13 Saint Paul Downtown Airport! Holman Field is located at 644 Bayfield Street. This field is southeast of downtown with the Mississippi River surrounding the other three sides.

12 little to nothing, and he knew how to-he was a farmer, too, in his younger days, so he knew how to garden. So we would use that quarter acre and plant stuff down there during the summer, and Ma would can it for the winter. And then we would make money hauling ashes and rubbish, hauling people furniture and stuff like that, odd jobs.

And then he would give music lessons to just about anyone in the neighborhood that wanted them. His fee was fifty cents. But if they didn't have it he would teach them anyway. And he played all the instruments. So that's why when Father Keiff, who was the secondProject priest at Saint Peter Claver, he found out about my dad's talent and he said,Society "Well Mr. Carter how would you like to start a band of young boys?" He said, "That would be fine of young boys and girls." And he said, "Well if you get them together, I'll talk to the people inHistory church and have them bring you some instruments." So he announced one day that he needed instruments and [for people to] look in attics and basementsHistorical and places like that and if you have any old instrumentsOral bring them to church, and Mr. Carter is going to go and pick them up, which he did. And one day he came home with a truckload of used instruments all bent out of shape and everything. He workedRondo on them for weeks 'til he got them all polished up and repaired. And he started this band. I think I was about in seventh grade. We became the toastMinnesota of the neighborhood.

The only instrument that didn't come from the church was my Uncle

Mack's hom. It was a very expensive hom at the time. They were all buddies of mine that lived around the neighborhood. Here is a picture.

13 That's some of the kids. I'm not sure who these are on this picture; my eyes are bad. And some of these kids became nationally known musicians in big bands of the days, after they grew up. Albert Cotton was a dear, dear friend of mine. He went on to play with a band called Erksin

Hawkins

Project Society

History

Oral Historical Saint Peter Claver Band Melvin Carter with baritone (third from right), W. D. Massey with trombone (leader Mym Carter not pictured). 1935 -1940

Rondothat was a recording band. That was just before World War II in the late 1930'sMinnesota and early '40's. Teddy Massey and his brother is on this picture also. He went on to play with a big band, but I can't call the name of it right now.

14 But my dad did a lot of good in the neighborhood because these young kids would play at all the neighborhood functions. They would say, "Where is Saint Peter Claver Band? We want those kids to play for us!"

Then if anyone in the community had a , or any of the parishes or churches had some big doings, Pa would put big placards on the sides of

the truck to advertise it. Then people would say, "Oh there's a big picnic going on at Como with such-and-such a church." All the girls and boys

would show up out there. We had a good time. And we would parade from Rice Street up to about Chatsworth, which is about a two-mile run. We didn't go beyond Chatsworth because beyondProject that was a pretty roughed-in area at that time, kind of woody and there wasn'tSociety much going on. We would make two or three passes up and down the street. People would run out to see what was going on. We'd march up and down

Rondo for special days on parades.History And we would parade from Rice Street up to about Chatsworth: "What's Mr. Carter and his ... " -they called us the Saint PeterOral Claver BrassHistorical Band, incidentally, and it's the first and only band I think they've ever had [Laughs].

Our big deal every year was to play at the Holy Name Parade at the fairgroundsRondo every year. And we would play every year in the school parade. Do the schools still have those parades? And I think Lieutenant HetzneckerMinnesota14 was the head of this particular part of the police department who would get my dad to have the kids corne and play. We would march

14 Frank J. Hetznecker was appointed patrolman June 18, 1917, with the Saint Paul Police Department. He went on military leave 1918-1919 to serve in World War I. He was assigned to direct the School Patrol December 22, 1922, and promoted to Sergeant that same date. He was promoted to Lieutenant October 1, 1926, and Superintendent of the School Patrol March 1, 1937. He retired December, 1958.

15 from the Capital down to Harriet Island, which was a long way. All the different schools would march and they would have their bands. All the kids would look forward to that big day at Harriet Island. And they would give us all free tickets for the rides and all the pop and junk you could eat. That was a big day. That was one of the biggest days. KC: What years was Saint Peter Claver Band going? MC: That would have been before World War II, about 1935 - '40, because the guys started getting drafted, ya know. We all got about draft age at the same time, which was eighteen I think-out of high school, which broke up the old family band. Project KC: What instrument did you play? Society MC: I played the baritone horn in that band. He would give music lessons to the people who could afford them and he would charge fifty cents if the

parents had it. 1£ they didn'tHistory have, he'd give lessons free. So some paid and that was enough to buy gas for the truck, I guess. The truck was mainly for his haulingOral business. Historical He would haul ashes and stuff and I would help him and move people. KC: The SPC Band was pretty much junior and senior high kids? MC: Yes. After all the boys got drafted, he gather up all the girls and started Rondothem playing. Let me show you that picture. All the girls had strings and onlyMinnesota one boy in there and that's my nephew Buddy [Henry] Moore, and he is dead now. He was too young to be drafted, so he got to play in the girls' band.

They were very popular. They would sing, too. They got so good that a guy named Racehorse Taylor, [he] was a guy in the neighborhood who

16 had a little money. He started managing them. And he'd have them play for profit in a lot of areas. Then they were supposed to go to Chicago and play at some big function there. Racehorse Taylor was going to try to get them nationally known. And so he took them to Chicago against my father's will.

Promotional pictures of ProjectMym Carter's girls string group withSociety nephew Buddy Moore.

Promoter Racehorse Taylor History with the girls.

Oral Historical

Rondo Minnesota

17 So Pa didn't go. He stayed here. Racehorse Taylor not knowing anything about music, he just knew promotion. And of course they blew it when they got there, because they all needed a bandleader to direct them. And

my father played with them; he played mandolin. The girl next to Buddy has a mandolin, and in the other picture Racehorse Buddy is holding a mandolin. I don't know if any of these girls are still alive. In the one picture is Taylor. These were publicity shots. I don't know how he got the

name Racehorse, but he must have known something about horses. It's coming back he Project owned some horses, and I Society guess would race them.

Anyway he kind of took over

the management and he hadHistory these publicity pictures taken. Oral Historical KC: Where did they get the string instruments? MC: I never found out about that. RondoI don't think this was under the jurisdictionMinnesota of Saint Peter Claver. I think that was

independently done. And I Mym Grundy Carter, Sr. think this guy [Taylor] must

18 have bought the instruments, because I know my dad didn't have any money. KC: What was your dad's personality like? MC: He was jovial and had a good sense of humor, which I wish I would have inherited. [Laughs] But he gave me his music knowledge and I am thankful for that. KC: To have created that many professional musicians, he must have had quite the teaching ability. MC: Yes, I think he had the enthusiasm and had a little knowledge of every instrument. He could take you so far then you hadProject to go the rest of the way on your own. And a lot of these people went to otherSociety professionals after he started them off. But he could get you started. KC: He must have had the ability to instill a love for music. MC: Yes, and the main reason he startedHistory the Saint Peter Claver Band was because I was kind of slow in school, if I remember correctly. And I didn't play football or basketballOral or baseball Historical because I was too skinny. And he was always afraid I would get hurt. So since I didn't go anywhere he brought all the kids to our house. Against my mother's best wishes, he had all of us in the living room just like this. After school he had us blowingRondo horns and my rna would be trying to sleep in the next room. [Chuckles] And he would write all the music, unbelievably or not, for each instrument.Minnesota Stuff that he would remember from days when he was playing, and so we played marches and military marches. He would write the notes down. Each member had their own pamphlet with their music in it so they could remember.

19 Come to think of it, he started a boy's quartet. With me and three other guys, and Massey was one of them. And we use to sing at affairs on our

own.

My dad's mother was a music teacher. That's why he was so well acquainted with music. In Paris, Texas, she used to play organ for the church choir, and teach music at the same time out of their home. So that's

why he got so well grounded in music.

Oh, incidentally, some of the kids from that bandProject that he started went on be very big nationally in big bands. So the work thatSociety he put [into] the kids all paid off. Two or three of us went into the service and were musicians in the service including me. I was a musician in the Navy [during World War II]. History

My first remembrance of Rondo is everything horse and buggy. Like the milk cars and theOral all things wouldHistorical be pulled by horses. That was at a very young stage. And I remember it was a very smelly town at that time because the horses weren't [Laughs]. They had crews that would come around with the little shovel and shovel that up, you know, as fast as they

Rondocould. It was very smoky and everybody burned coal. It left a kind of haze overMinnesota everything, like a mining town or something.

But everyone knew each other. It was a typical small community. I think the Black community was from about Rice Street up to Lexington and I would say on either side of that was where the community extended

20 about two blocks on either side. I would say there were about a thousand in that area. KC: When you were growing up, when you were living on 305 Rondo, what did your block look like? Was it mostly Black people or was there a variety?

MC: It was about ninety percent Black. Not that they couldn't move somewhere else, but people tend to congregate where other people are like them. I noticed when I worked at the train station Blacks would come up here from the South the first thing they would ask you, "Where is the Black neighborhood." And that's where they would head and ultimately they would end up staying there somewhere. So Projectit was mostly Black. There were a few White though - about ten percent. ThereSociety were businesses all up and down the street. In fact, across the street from me was a tailor

shop.

KC: Was it a Black or a White proprietor?History

MC: Black, name was Mr. Love.l S And he tried to teach me the tailoring business, which I wasOral all thumbs Historical at [Laughs]. I didn't go there. And on the corner was a bar, Goodman's Bar16 where they sold liquor and beer, a kind of congregating place where on the weekends people would come. And they sold coal and there was a barbershop and a hamburger joint and a restaurant,Rondo I remember. And coming up towards Dale there was a playground,17 which extended from Western. It was on the corner.

WesternMinnesota and Rondo and Saint Anthony on the other side. I can't

remember the street on the east end. But anyway it was a whole block

15 Love Tailor Shop was located at 310/312 Rondo. 16 Toni Goodman's Tavern was at 318 Rondo at Arundel. 17 Welcome Hall Playground was at Western, Rondo, Saint Anthony and Virginia .

21 where all those kids played and did their thing in summer time. Moving up farther than that there was another barbeque place called-uh, you're making me think here. I can't [Laughs]. KC: I've got a map here. Western and Rondo. Bookers T's? MC: Booker T'sP8 That is where we would hang out, all the cats you know

[Laughs]. KC: Did you ever play music there? Did they have music?

MC: No, they never had live music. They had a jukebox. It was small. And mostly they sold barbeque by the tons. They never had live music. KC: I was reading in one of the pieces that he gave Projecthis recipe for barbeque and talked about starting it at four in the morning. WouldSociety you go by and get barbeque and take it home for the family? MC: ABSOLUTELY! Absolutely! Barbeque was at the head of everybody's

menu in those days. That wasHistory a great delight because these people that bought these recipes for their sauce from all parts of the South, and they were very zealousOral about their Historical recipes. They wouldn't give them out unless you were a relative or something. Everyone took great pride in their recipe for barbeque sauce and some were so delicious you just couldn't stop eating it. Some of the people made money off of these recipes and Rondowere bought out by different big companies and things. Ken somebody fromMinnesota Minneapolis. KC: Kenny's Bar-B-Q sauce. MC: Yeah, something like that. He made it big of his recipes. He probably got it from his grandparents or something.

18 Booker T. Barbeque Rib, owned by Mance Ellis and named for his son , was located at 381 Rondo at Western .

22 KC: When you were growing up, did you have a lot of relatives here in town or was it just predominantly your family? MC: For us, the Carters, I had an uncle, two uncles here: Uncle Mack and Uncle Foster. Mack Carter lived on the same block that we did about three houses east of us and Foster lived on Chatsworth. They were my father's

brothers. They came here before us and actually sent for my dad when they found out that Paris, Texas,19 had burned down, which you read

about. Because there was always some-people were scared to stay there. There was always some controversy whether the fire was intentionally set in the Black neighborhood and nobody wanted toProject stay around and find out at that time. So they sent him to come up here and saidSociety there was plenty of work [in] Minnesota, which there was, with the railroads and

packinghouses and stuff like that. My Uncle Mack20 worked as a redcap

and my dad worked at the packinghouseHistory in South Saint Paul.

KC: Did your father also play music in the evening like you did? MC: Yes, he did. And myOral brother21 wasHistorical also a musician. [They] played a lot on Rice Street near McCarran's Lake.22 There were some chicken shacks. They mainly served chicken and a good place to hang out. Whites and Blacks both would kind of go to those places. And that's were they would play untilRondo my father got in an automobile accident and broke his knee and he Minnesota 19 A 1916 fire in Paris,Texas, burned out most of the Black community's homes. 20 Mack Dade Carter was born 1879 and passed away May 3, 1943. 21 Mym Carter Jr. was born May 13, 1912 in Paris Texas and passed June 25, 1971 in Saint Paul. 22 McCarron Lake is located in Roseville, Minnesota, with public access at 1795 Rice Street. The Lake has 9000 feet of shoreline (81 surface acres) and a maximum depth of 57 feet - small and deep by metro norms. The Lake is surrounded by single-family homes, except for a 15 acre park located on the east shore that includes beach front, recreational amenities, picnic shelter, play area, fishing pier and a beach building . McCarron Lake was named for a farmer who lived beside the lake, John E. McCarron. He served in the Fourth Minnesota Regiment during the Civil War.

23 couldn't walk good anymore, so he kind of quit playing publicly then. He must have been in his sixties by that time.

I was about fifteen or sixteen years old. I remember that he had been on a job playing with my brother, and they were driving home on Rice Street and they either hit something or-anyway, my dad went through the windshield of the car and landed on his knee and cracked his knee. And they had to wire it together. That was the procedure in those days. He had a wire in his knee for the rest of his life to hold his knee bone together. I imagine they would just replace it now days.Project But he was crippled up forever after that. He had to always use a crutch. Society KC: So in the hauling business, you and your brother did most of the work? MC: I did most of the work. [Chuckles] My dad could lift a certain amount. But what he couldn't lift, I wouldHistory do. So had plenty to keep me busy after school. We would always have a job or two to do. KC: The hauling businessOral wasn't aHistorical full time business? MC: Without me to help him he couldn't do anything. I would do the driving. KC: He was the boss and he would find the jobs and stuff like that. MC: Yes. And my mother worked at the old Federal Building,23 which is-what Rondodo you call that building now? It used to be the old post office. KC: Landmark Center. MC: LandmarkMinnesota Center. That was a post office at one time. And she said she sawall those gangsters come through there and they had to go on trial.

23 Landmark Center. The Old Federal Courts Building is located at 75 West 5th Street in downtown Saint Paul. This building was designated a National Historic Monument in 1978, and became a cultural center for music, dance, theater, exhibitions, public forums, and special events.

24 And that was a big thing. And I remember when Dillinger24 was in town.

Just before they caught him he stayed in the Rondo district because he

was hiding. But all us kids knew this because you know how kids are. We snoop around, running errands for people and stuff like that. "Dillinger's

in town!" That was the big news and we all knew where he was staying.

KC: Where was he staying?

MC: He was staying with people up the street. I forget their name and I don't

want to say now, anyway, because some people are still living, you know.

[Laughter] KC: Still protecting the gangsters, huh? Project MC: Well, I'm protecting the people. They have children, grandchildren,Society and I don't want to go there. But he paid well for being put up and money was hard to corne by in those days. So I don't hold blame. Shortly after that he

was caught in Chicago or somewhereHistory.

KC: Now, when he would go out and , would it be like to the chicken shack? Oral Historical MC: We never saw him.

KC: Okay, you just knew of him.

MC: Knew of him, knew where he was at, that he was in the neighborhood.

AndRondo you know how kids are passing a word right now. You know, and differentMinnesota kids would run errands for him and make ten bucks. Whew, two months wages right there.

24 John Dillinger was a well-known bank robber in the early 1930's. Gangsters regularly spent time in Saint Paul, as the Saint Paul Police Department often ignored their presence.

25 KC: Where you aware of things being different for your family during the

Depression?

MC: No. It was a way of life. I didn't know any different. But it was a life that when [you] are born into you don't know there is anything any better. And it wasn't that bad because there was work for people who wanted to

work. The railroads would be jumping and the packinghouses and places

like that were hiring daily. So it wasn't that bad. It was just that a dollar was in them days a big dollar. We lived off of my mother's wages, which

were thirty dollars a month. My father broke his leg so he couldn't work anymore. Project KC: What did your mother do? Society MC: It was a civil service job. Cleaning up the Federal Building,25 dusting, stuff

like that. Cleaning.

KC: She worked nights, then? History MC: She worked from five in the morning until afternoon sometime. I don't remember. We wouldOral go pick Historical her up all the time. But you could go a long way on a buck in those days. KC: How old were you when your mother went to work? MC: Oh, let's see, I must have been around eight, nine years old, something likeRondo that. KC: WhatMinnesota was your mother's personality like? MC: Nobody's ever asked me that question before. Typical mom, but she was the breadwinner in the family. So she spent much less time with me than

25 Federal Building now known as The Landmark Center, located at 75 West 5th Street in downtown Saint Paul. In 1978 this building was deSignated a Nation Historic Monument and became a cultural center for music, dance, theater, exhibitions, public forums, and special events.

26 my dad. She worked at the federal building as a cleaning woman. Then she would do day work, as they called it, which was going to people's

fancy houses and clean for them on the weekends and stuff like that. So she was on the go most of the time. KC: Were you aware that money was tight in your family?

MC: I wasn't even aware that we were poor. I didn't really understand that, because I had the necessary and important things in life going for me. But I didn't know what poor was. I thought we were just normal. KC: Were you poor? Me: Oh yeah! My mother made-I remember her sayingProject she made $33 a month. That was the basic income, and out of that we managedSociety to live. We had an old car, and dad managed to buy an old truck he found

somewhere. He would make a little dough with that.

KC: Lets talk about jazz. How did youHistory learn to play jazz? MC: After playing in my dad's military style band, which was marches and stuff, the first musicOral I heard was jazz.Historical And my brother was a piano player and he had an old windup victrola.26 I think one of the first records I heard was Louie Armstrong's "West End Blues." And I was hooked on it ever since. Rondo We use to have jam sessions at our house. When my brother would get throughMinnesota playing at night he'd bring the cats over. We use to call each other cats in them days. He bought the cats over and they would take the top off

the piano and have a big jam session at one 0' clock in the morning.

26 Victrola is the trademark for a brand of phonographs.

27 [Chuckles] Wake up everybody. That's when I first got aware of jazz. He'd bring a lot of the musicians home and I'd meet them and learn from them. KC: This was at 305 Rondo?

MC: You're going to know more about me than I know about me pretty soon. [Chuckles] KC: Mym is older than you?

MC: Oh, yes, he is about ten years older than me, I guess. He has been dead

Project Society

History Mym Grundy Carter Sr., Mym Grundy Carter Jr., Melvin Whitfield Carter,Oral Historical Sr., Leantha Carter Zeno, Mary Whitfield Carter Rondo Minnesota

28 now twenty-five years. I had one brother27 and one sister28 and I am the only one left in that original family. Here I'll show you a picture. My sister Tubie or Leantha, and she just died last year at ninety-four years. KC: That's a beautiful picture. MC: I remember it hanging in my parent's horne when I was a kid. I never thought I would end up with it. My sister was older than me. These are the memories. KC: Did Mym learn from your dad? MC: He taught everybody. He taught my sister. She sang and she played piano. And when she passed away she had a housefulProject of instruments just like I do. She had a full size organ, a piano, a xylophone.Society [Laughs] She played a whole lot of instruments. KC: Do you still play piano? MC: Yes, I just bought my self a brandHistory new piano as a retirement present after my wife died. IOral needed Historical something to not take her place, take up some time. KC: You said Mym would corne back withRondo the musicians in the evening. Where did he play? Minnesota Melvin and Billie Carter MC: They played at some places they c. early 1990's

27 Mym Grundy Carter Jr. was born May 13, 1912, in Paris Texas, and passed away June 25, 1971 in Saint Paul , MN. 28 Leantha "Tubie" Carter Zeno was born July 21 , 1909, and passed away May 16, 2002.

29 called chicken shacks around, and they were the nightclubs of today. And guys would take the girls there and they would dance and eat fried

chicken. Every chicken shack would have their own recipe for chicken. You know, a thousand different ways. They would always have a two, three or four piece band playing there of local talent, which was very lucrative for the local musicians in those days. We don't have that now.

We have canned music. It put a lot of musicians out of business, most of

them.

My dad played at the chicken shacks and onceProject in a while my dad would take Mym with him on a job. He played the guitar andSociety my brother played piano, then they would have a horn player like a trumpet or saxophone.

And it was a very musical environment that I came in. There was no way for me to avoid it really. History

I just don't have the ability to teach like he did. I just don'tOral have the patience.Historical And you've got to love people, and I kind of love them, but not as much as Rondohe did. [Chuckles] KC: I have the impression you are kind of a quiet,Minnesota shy person. MC: Well, you are pretty good at analyzing

people. Mym Grundy Carter Jr. KC: How old was Mym when he started playing at the chicken shack?

30 MC: He was probably out of high school. I don't remember exactly.

KC: Did he take any other lessons besides your father's lessons? MC: I don't know of any. I don't remember. KC: Did you play at the chicken shacks? Me: Very briefly, a short time before the war. But then I was still in high school. I was drafted as soon as I graduated. Probably one summer I played at the chicken shacks. KC: When did you make the transition from baritone to trumpet? MC: In high school. My band director wanted a baritoneProject player. Kids didn't just naturally gravitate towards playing baritone becauseSociety it wasn't very popular instrument. They wanted to play the popular instruments of the day, like today everybody's a guitar player or a drummer. And in those

days trumpet was the dominantHistory instrument - Louie Armstrong, Harry James and all those guys were making it well known. So I wanted to play trumpet and he wantedOral me to playHistorical baritone horn. So I played baritone horn a couple years, then my last year he let me switch over to trumpet. But baritone is a very beautiful instrument. Thank God to this day that my dad started me out baritone because it's it teaches you music theory, becauseRondo it answers the dominant. Whatever the main theme is, the baritoneMinnesota kind of answers. And it's spells out the core that the main theme is based on. So in an unusual way you are getting to learn theory of music. Do you play an instrument? KC: No, I took piano for six years. I was not good, and I begged to quit because the teacher was very shaming.

31 MC: There are not very many good teachers. A lot of people that play well

can't teach. It takes so much patience. I tried teaching for a little while. I said, "Well I'll make a little extra dough, and I'll have the kids over for an hour lesson, charge them ten bucks, and I'll make a fortune." Anyway, this is when we lived over on Aurora. They'd bring them over, Junior would sit down, I would painstakingly show him a tune out of the book. "Okay, go home and practice, Junior." Junior would go home, next week he'd come back. He hadn't learned a thing, hadn't practiced. So you get

about ten kids that don't practice at home and it kind of sours you out. It did to me at least. I had enough of that. The mothersProject just wanted somebody to baby sit for an hour so they could go shopping.Society [Laughs] And they wouldn't make them practice when they got home. I said, "That's enough of this."

KC: How did your dad get you Historyto practice? Obviously you know that that's important. MC: Well, he broughtOral all the kids Historicalto my house and we would practice every night the music that he had written. That way everybody was advancing about the same pace. He got me to do something that I liked to do and he liked to do. We was all happy. KC: RondoSo between taking lessons with your dad, did you take lessons other places?Minnesota MC: When I came back out of the Navy I went to the music school in Minneapolis that was connected to the University of Minnesota,

32 MacPhaip9 I went there for a couple of years. I didn't finish. The rest I leaned on my own. But I got some good fundamental theory at MacPhail. I learned a little of all instruments over there. Because if you are taking music over there, you have to learn a little bit about everything from the violin to keyboard in order to teach it. Just enough to qualify. KC: Did you teach music? MC: No, except my own kids, which was disastrous. I am not a good teacher. But it caught on with Matthew who I am very proud of, who is a very good piano player. He is now a bus driver and plays piano, too. He is a sensational piano player. And the rest of them-itProject almost caught on, but it didn't. They found other things to do. Society KC: Does Matthew take after his dad with a day job and plays piano at night? MC: Sometimes he drives at night because it is required in this job, but he picks

jobs were he plays at night, too.History He has composed a lot of tunes and is getting ready to make a CD now, I think. That's what he is getting ready to do. He plays mostlyOral his own compositionsHistorical. He is not interested in playing other people's music, which I find very good. All you do when you play other people's music is make them famous. I think he will be sensational once he is known. He has been out on the road with rock bandsRondo for years. He got sick of that and decided to come home and settle down. SoMinnesota he is looking for the usual stuff, a wife and buying a home. He says he just wants to settle down now.

29 MacPhail Center for the Arts was founded in 1907 and located at 1128 LaSalle Avenue in downtown Minneapolis. In the late 1950's into the 1960's it was the music school for the University of Minnesota.

33 KC: You said your dad laid the foundation for you. When you went into the Navy, you played for them and they let you in. MC: I had to take an audition, which was consisted of going to the head of the band department at Great Lakes Naval Training Station. He sent for a horn and they took me in a room and put a lyre, music lyre, and put some

music down and said can you play that? And I played it. It was a couple marches that I hadn't seen before, fairly tough, but not really difficult. So they said, "That's pretty good. Can you play some jazz?" So I did that from memory. And they said, "Well, we can use you. You go back to your company and we'll send for you." Oh, that wasProject the best news I ever heard in my life. I didn't want to go shooting at nobody andSociety have them shooting at me as an alternative, you know. [Chuckles] KC: When you were in the military, was there a lot of practicing? MC: There was a military band andHistory a dance band and a concert band out of

about twenty guys. And we'd always rotate. If there was some military events going on Oralwe would alwaysHistorical put our uniforms on and play for that, like guys returning from overseas or going overseas. We go down to the beach and play for them to leave. There we would play the military stuff. Then when they have something for the guys on the beach, like a dance or Rondosomething, we would form the dance band and play for that. And if there was Minnesotaa parade or something we had to play for, we put on our military stuff and play for that. KC: Were there different bands at other bases? MC: Almost every base has their own band. That was standard in the war days, I guess for moral purposes. Every naval base had their own band. In

34 the Navy you could get music as your full-time assignment. I was a musician second class, second class petty officer. And I just as the war was over I made first class, and next would have been chief, but I didn't stay in. I think in the army they called it special assignment, but they didn't have the insignia like we had. So we thought we were pretty damn special. [Chuckles] KC: Did you do that full time? MC: Yeah, from '43 to '46 and that's all I did. KC: You were drafted then? MC: Yes, and that is kind of a different story. I was draftedProject by my own request. And I think it must have happened to a lot of guys. GuysSociety started - guys that I use to play music with, would run the streets with - they all started disappearing from 1940 to 1943. And pretty soon there was nobody to hang out with. All the guys wereHistory going. And they'd come back and talk about what units they were in, what they were doing. So I just said, "Welt hell, I'm not going toOral stay here. [Chuckles]Historical I called up the draft department. A month later they sent me a letter. [Laughter] Boy, that's really youth for you. That is really youth. So that's how I got in the service. KC: Did youRondo run into experiences with racism? MC: In the NavyMinnesota I did. Of course that time it was prevalent, and that's the way of life. Am I boring you here? KC: Not yet. I don't think you could. [Laughs]

MC: In the Navy that was in 1943, I went to Great Lakes. I've been a musician; that's what I wanted to be in the Navy because I heard they were taking

35 Black musicians, which they'd never done before. The Navy being of Southern tradition saying White officers [and] all the Blacks did was cook. And so when I went up there I told my commanding officer I wanted to be a musician and he says, "Son, you're here to fight a war, not to play music." So I said, "Well." I took it in my own hands. I ditched the company at the risk of going AWOL. And I found out where the musicians hung out. And one day - In fact, I just told this story to somebody in Chicago over the phone doing the same thing you're doing here, and they're having a reunion up there next month of all the Black

musicians who came through Robert Small'sProject Training Station. 30 Have you heard about this? Society KC: No, not about that, but I know about Small's Training Station. Griffin went there, too. MC: Yes, he went there. He wentHistory there after I did in fact. And so it was all Black and so I went to the band shack and I said, "I want to be a musician." So theyOral said, "Well Historical come in." And they went and found a hom. Two official guys came up. "Here. Can you play this?" They put some music. I played it "Here's another one." Played that. "Can you play jazz?" I said, "Yeah." I played some jazz. He said, "Well we could use Rondoyou." He said, "You go back to your company and don't worry about it. We'llMinnesota take [care] of your commander for you." And I went back to the company and he never had anything to say to me from then on. [Laughs]

30 Robert Small . On May 12, 1862, the White Confederate officers of the Steamer "Planter" went ashore for a party. Slave Robert Small with other slaves quietly took the ship to the mouth of the harbor and turned it over to the Union Army. This was a considerable prize for the Union because of the number of guns on the "Planter." Small went on to become a Major General in the South Carolina Militia, and he became a congressman after the Civil War.

36 So he said, "We'll hide ya until we get a band made up." They were making up Black bands and shipping them around the country wherever there was a Black naval base.

They didn't have a band made at the time but they were making it up, so he said, "Until we get a band made up we're going to make a bugle boy out of you." So I was the guy who'd go bugle in the morning to go wake everybody. They'd throw shoes and bottles first thing in the morning and you could hear them groaning, but they'd have to get up. [Laughs] I was blowing a big mega-phone. You ever seen those Projectmega-horns? They go out this way and this way. That's way they use to talk yearsSociety ago, that's before electronics. After about five minutes everybody [would] be up. That would be my job until they finally made up a band and then they shipped me out to San Diego. History KC: So you spent your whole time in San Diego? MC: San Diego and San FranciscoOral and Historical our other job we did besides music. It was actually a submarine-refueling base on Point Lorna, which is out on the tip of the bay in San Diego. Submarines would come in there at night because they couldn't be seen. In the dark we'd have to refuel them. We hadRondo a big refueling tank on the base, that's what it was. It had a big hose about this long, and about this round, everybody had to get under that hose andMinnesota take it down to the dock where the submarine was until they pumped enough oil in it.

The smoking light would be off at that time. I don't know if you're

37 familiar with navy terms: the smoking lamp is either on or off. While they were refueling, you'd dare not smoke because it's too dangerous. Then they would load. The ships carne in the daytime and they'd have big

stacks of torpedoes. It was an ammunition dock also, similar to the one in Camp Chicago, which is just below Los Angeles, that blew up killing

about 300-350 Black sailors who were loading the ships. I don't know if you remember. But ours was the same thing only it didn't blow up. Luckily I'm still here.

MC: I was in San Diego. That's where I met Project my wife31 and I was discharged in San Society Francisco in 1946. Incidentally Jim

Griffin32 and I carne back on the same train. That's when he met myHistory wife and we all had a nice time corning back and the reunion and everything.Oral JimHistorical tried his best to get me on the police force and I kept saying no. [Laughs] I wasn't

cut out for that, but he got my son33 Wife Billie Dove Carter at 17 or 18 years anyway.Rondo KC: Did you have a place [or] did you corne back and live with your folks? Minnesota

31 Billie Dove Harris Carter was born in 1927, and passed in 2000. 32 James S. Griffin was born and grew up on Rondo Avenue . He served Saint Paul Police Department from August 6, 1941 to August 21 , 1983. He was the first Black man to be promoted to Sergeant in 1955, Captain in 1970, and Deputy Chief in 1972. 33 Son , Melvin W. Carter, Jr., served on the Saint Paul Police Department from 1975 until his retirement as a Sergeant in 2003.

38 MC: I lived with my mother and father at 305 Rondo Street. Upstairs they had a little apartment up there. They let us stay there for a year until we decided to move. We moved to 717 Rondo, which was a little between Saint Albans and Grotto on Rondo, 717 Rondo. We lived there until the highway came through and they said, "You gotta move and take what we

give you./I

KC: When you would look out your windows, what did Rondo look like then?

MC: Well the first t~ing you would see were the streetcar tracks going up and down the street and the streetcar would come by and always be people on them coming and going. Lots of street activity, lotsProject more than you see now. People standing on 'the corner waiting there. Weren'tSociety nearly as many cars. I mean you could have a ball game out in the middle of the street and you'd never get hit. The kids had plenty places to play like that.

KC: Let's talk some more about the musicHistory on Rondo. Now if you were in the band in the Navy, when you came back did you play? MC: I came back, I played,Oral and there was-letHistorical me see. The community at that time had a lot more social groups34 going on ; the Credjafawns. Some others were the Sterling Club, Cameos, Zodiacs, Regaletts, Limited Ten, Forty Club, and the Men's Loafers Club. And they were all people who wereRondo approximately my age, but they were all into social clubs. And I made a livingMinnesota playing for these people around different places, halls up and down Rondo and places like this. I had a four or five-piece band. It would depend on how big the hall was, how many musicians I'd have.

34 Social Clubs were formed out of necessity because recreation and entertainment facilities for Black people were limited in the 1920's, 1930's and early 1940's, None of the better restaurants would serve them, nor did the major hotels rent rooms to them . By 1935 there were two-dozen clubs of various kinds existing in the Twin Cities. By the late 1940's the hotels began to rent party rooms for private of the social clubs .

39 KC: Who were some of your musicians who played with you? MC: Oh, let me see. Well they're all dead now but I'm trying to come back with their names. Charles Clark, he's still living. He's in Minneapolis. He is a retired schoolteacher. And Oscar, Oscar Pettiford. He went on to be a big famous jazz musician, and he played with and a lot of other bands before he passed away. He was one of the guys that played with me. Ira Pettiford, who was a famous musician later on, played with Earl Hinds. These are all jazz bands I'm talking about, in the Forties. Anyway these are some of the guys that were in my band in and out, you know, different stages. Project Society So music was always a sideline with me because I had a family35 was coming in. Every year we'd have another kid so I had to have a day job. I

was a redcap at the Depot duringHistory the days. That's how I paid the rent, you know. Oral Historical

The Carter family Melvin, Jr., Terri, Melvin, Sr., Paris, Billie, Mark Larry, Matthew Rondoc. 1959 Minnesota

35 Mr. Carter's children are: Teresina (1946), Melvin Whitfield Jr. (1948), Paris (1952) , Mark (1953) , Matthew (1955) , and Larry (1962) .

40 KC: Can you describe a redcap? MC: A redcap was a guy that worked in the train station and he wore a redcap

so the people would know who he was, and he would carry the luggage for them down to the train or bring it back. You'd live off your tips, which

were considerable. It wasn't a big paying job, but it was job that you could [do well], depending on how much effort you put into it. You worked hard, you'd get paid good, and if not, you didn't. But I worked on that for, oh, about twelve years until the railroad folded up and they started laying off people. So I saw the sign posted and I said, "Well, I better get another job." That's when I got with the Saint Paul Schools.Project KC: Which railroad were you with? Society MC: I was with the station - Union Depot. KC: Did you become a redcap because of Uncle Mack?

MC: No. After the war, and I had gotHistory my family started. Trains and the packinghouses were the place where you could get a job just walking in, and people were comingOral from theHistorical South by the busload and trainload to get these jobs because they had heard about them. Shortly after that they

started petering out because airplanes took over. It was just a natural

thing to go where it was easiest to get the job at that point in time. And I triedRondo to go to school at the same time, but that didn't work too well wit}:l raising aMinnesota family. I did a lot of piecing work. I would be a waiter on the railroad often in the winter when it was slow at the depot for redcaps. I ran an elevator for a couple years, and worked at the packinghouse, too. You had to support

41 your family, and often you worked several jobs to piece enough money together. I pieced all jobs together, like a quilt, to make some time to work as a musician and to support my family. KC: How many years were you a redcap? MC: About twelve years, ten to twelve years. I worked long enough to get a basic pension from them. Then I worked with the schools as a janitor for twenty-seven years and I got a pension from there. KC: What year did you go to the Saint Paul Schools?

MC: 1962. And I started off as a janitor and worked up to an engineer-four, which is over a period of twenty-seven years.Project When I retired I was head custodian at Humboldt High School for the last six years.Society I worked over on the west side. It was a good job and it helped pay. I always had my nights and weekends off so I could play music, which supplemented my

income pretty good. History KC: Now when you were talking about playing with the different musical clubs, where didOral you play? Historical

MC: We played at th~ PROM36 quite a bit, which was on University Avenue out here, sometimes upstairs in the big ballroom sometimes in the Arizona

Room which is the in the basement. It was a beautiful room. I'm trying to rememberRondo some of the halls that were around here. Ford Parkway, they had aMinnesota nice hall. We used to rent that out, the different clubs did, and some of these places have come and gone so fast that it is hard to remember right off hand. KC: So they wouldn't necessarily stay on Rondo?

36 Ballroom called itself "Home of the Name Bands" and was located at 1190 University Avenue

42 MC: Ohno. KC: They would go out a little bit traveling around? MC: And the different hotels and motels up and down the strip over there on [highway] 494 and wherever there was a nice hall, they would get it and rent it. Downtown at the auditorium and the different hotels downtown they would rent. Those were the places we'd play. KC: When you would play music, did you every play at the after hours places?

Me: No, because I found that sometimes it didn't fit my lifestyle. Not that I didn't go to them once and a while, but to play there you start after hours and play until four or five in the morning, and I Projectwas always getting up and going work by that time, see. Because I'd either haveSociety to be at my day job or opening a building somewhere for the schools at six 0' clock. So I never tried to play in those. In fact I don't think they ever had much live

music in the after hour joints. TheyHistory were mostly playing records and tapes and stuff like that. KC: With just the alcohol?Oral [Laughs] Historical MC: Yeah, as far as I know. KC: Would you tell us if you knew anything else?

Me: On the right day I might tell you. [Laughter] Get me on the right day I mightRondo tell you. But I think it is very prudent now to go down the middle. People being people, everybody broke the rules sometime or the other. KC: What wouldMinnesota you be willing to share about after hour joints during the active life around Rondo?

Me: I guess they were called illegal places. A lot-well not a lot, but some guys opened them up. They would be in homes and they would be very

43 private. They would be very particular about who they let in, because we Blacks weren't welcome in a lot of the other White places downtown or in

the neighborhoods. So I guess they kind of made up their own rules. As far as I know, as long as there wasn't any disruption, fights or anything against the law happening that was very prevalent, that everybody knew about, the police would kind of look the other way. You know, as long as it was low key. People would come there and party, eat and dance. But once it got destructive and something would hit the news, then of course [the police] would have to make a raid. [Chuckles] KC: So there would be alcohol, cards ... Project MC: Yes, alcohol, food, gambling, women and men dancing.Society KC: What kind of music? MC: They very seldom had live music because that would direct too much

attention. They would haveHistory records and stuff like that. The situation being such that there were things that people could afford. With people having such a limited means,Oral they couldn'tHistorical hardly go out of their neighborhood anyway. A lot of places that you might want to go, you weren't welcome. They didn't put not welcome signs up, but you'd get the message in a few minutes after you walked in: And you didn't get served for an hour, and Rondoyou didn't want to come back there. 5, I wouldn't say they were bad placesMinnesota or good places, but they were necessary places. KC: The social clubs began out of the same environment you are talking about. Black people were not welcome every place. Can you describe how the social clubs worked? Did you and your wife, Billie, belong to any?

44 MC: No, I wasn't social minded. Billie was. And I'm not a very sociable person when it comes to joining clubs and so forth and all of that. KC: As a redcap, if somebody is coming into town and they are a Black person and they'd ask you, "Where can I go stay?" Because they couldn't go to the hotels downtown usually, could they, in the early years? MC: Hrnmm, you know, Minnesota always been a very liberal place compared to other places in the country, but there are still pockets of places where you didn't venture and you just didn't go to the hotels because sometimes your feelings would be hurt even if you did have the money. So generally they would end up back in the Rondo area somewhere.Project There was always somebody who had rooms for rent, or they'd have signsSociety in the window, or we'd tell them go see Mrs. So-and-So, she's got rooms for rent, or go see Mr. So-and-So, and we'd generally know where to steer them. We'd try to

avoid the stepping into a land mine.History KC: Were there any hotels that would accept Blacks? MC: I think they would, yeah.Oral I think Historicalthey would. But you always run the risk of an incident and who needs that? But anyway on paper they always would accept you, but sometimes conduct would-conduct would tell one thing and the paper would tell you another thing. Sometimes you'd sit to waitRondo and be served after everybody else for instance and little things like that youMinnesota notice. So the original question was what? KC: Where would you send people? MC: Where would you tell them to go, yeah. And there was always someone had space for rent up and down Rondo A venue. KC: About what year did that change, the conduct followed the paper?

45 MC: I would say early Sixties, about the time of the Vietnam War. When was

that? 1960, '61. That's when you could start demanding your rights, civil

rights, and all that stuff. But as far as the Black people were concerned,

they could just about go anywhere in Minnesota. There were people all

over Minnesota years ago. Black people lived all over but they had to be

very brave.

Just for example, I was talking to a fellow today. He was in his eighties.

He used to hunt a lot. And I asked him, I said, "Are you still hunting?" He says, "No I had to quit." He used to take coonProject dogs out and hunt, that was a big thing in the South and he used to do that. I said,Society "Why'd you quit? You used to bring a lot of coons horne and cook' ern." He used to live

right across the street. In fact, he said, "Well, Melvin, the last few times I

was out there, you park alongHistory the road somewhere, you kind of know who's out in the woods." He said, "You had to go two or three blocks away from the carOral to hunt. TheyHistorical would hear you hunting over there." And last time he carne back he found all the windows broke out of his car

and he said somebody's been watching him and giving him the message

"Don't corne back." So he said, "You never can tell where you're going to

Rondofind people don't want you there." That happened about ten years ago, he said.Minnesota KC: So you've played jazz [and] you've played big band. After the war was it

mostly a big band sound or was it jazz? MC: It was more pure jazz at that time and that's what the community seemed

to like because big bands cost too much. It's so many people involved. So

46 consequently, it goes towards combos and stuff like that. We played mostly jazz. KC: Were your audiences mostly Blacks? MC: Mostly Black. KC: Mostly Black, so the White community wouldn't hire you? MC: White establishments didn't. That was a whole new era in my life. Didn't hire unless they were hired by a Black organization or something, and they'd bring their own band with them. As far as the bars and what they call the Al establishment - that's where they have liquor, food and dancing - they mostly hired White. For one thing,Project the musician's union was involved in all of this and all the unions worked togetherSociety in those days. Which is a whole different thing. Unions have no teeth at all now. We had to belong to a union even to work in our neighborhood, but they frowned on us working anywhereHistory else. At that time that was a prejudice union, "Take it or leave it." They would send a walking delegate, they call it, who would go checkOral these placesHistorical at night to see who is playing there and if they are union members or if their dues are paid up and stuff like

that. So it was kind of rough living. It was hard for a Black man musician to make a living just playing in his own establishments. There weren't that many.Rondo And I forgot what my point was. [Laughter] KC: Would theMinnesota Minneapolis community have you corne over, or did you mostly play in the Saint Paul community? MC: The Black community in Minneapolis, the Black community in Minneapolis and Saint Paul, we all knew each other very well. They were

47 mostly around the Phyllis Wheatley,37 and Saint Paul were all around the

Hallie Q. Brown38 area. Those are our main community areas, but we all

knew each other girls and boys and we had more fun than we had

otherwise. KC: How many nights a week would you be out playing?

MC: Well, I never played over a couple of nights a week. Maybe a Friday and

Saturday because it was just too hard to work days and nights, too. There

was a few times I would play consecutively on nights. That was on a place

called the Key Club39 on Washington A venue in Minneapolis. That's all changed now, but that was the one place whereProject they brought in top-notch entertainment. That's where I met a bunch of top-notchSociety musicians came through there. The trumpet player, I have his picture in there right now,

Miles Davis, and I'm pretty bad on names. A bunch of them came through

there and we backed them up.History The comedians. Out of that job over at the

Key Club we went to Chicago. I took a little band to Chicago and we played at the DeSableOral Lounge. Historical And we had the greatest experience of our life backing up Red Fox. That was our resource getting started in Chicago.

He was making blue records at that time. I don't know if you're familiar

with blue records, kind of naughty records at the time. Now, they wouldn'tRondo even be considered anything, but they were kind of risque' at

37 Phyllis Wheatley Community Center opened its doors in 1924 at 808 Bassett Place North. The settlement house provided recreationalMinnesota activities, baby and dental clinics , and classes on Black history and culture. The center was the first agency in the Twin Cities dedicated to serving Black-Americans. It later relocated to 915 Emerson Avenue North, Minneapolis, and currently has several locations. 38 Hallie Q. Brown Community Center was opened in 1929 as a community center to specifically serve the Black community when the Black YWCA was closed in 1928. The original location was in the Union Hall at Aurora and Kent Streets until it relocated in the Martin Luther King Building at 270 Kent Street at Iglehart in Saint Paul. 39 Key Club was located at 1329 Washington in Minneapolis and was a very popular night spot for Black patrons to dance.

48 that time. That was when he was just getting started. He was just playing at local areas around the south side of Chicago. Now where did I leave

you? [Laughs] KC: If you wanted to go out, even before you went to the war, if you wanted to

go listen to music were would you go? MC: There was a little place right here up on Lexington called Coliseum,4o right off of University. And it was the one story big dance hall and I remember

seeing Fats Waller there. He was a very famous piano player at that time. I remember later was that me and a friend of mine snuck in because we were underage. And he played big upright pianoProject and he wore a derby and always had a big bottle of gin sitting on he piano there.Society And the proprietor saw us in there and told us to get out. And Fats said, "Let' em stay there." Me and my buddy, and we sat with our backs against the wall behind the big piano and heardHistory him play all night long. [Laughter] He really entertained us. He knew we were back there. You could get two or three hundred peopleOral in the Coliseum Historical and they had some big dances. And some of the dances would be down at Harriet Island.41 And at that time they had a big, what do you call them, when the people are-it was kind

of open with the fencing around the side, and they had some of the

biggestRondo parties down there. KC: Now thisMinnesota is a Black and White party, or predominantly Black? MC: It was all Black. Different communities and different churches would have their down there and dance all night and [have] a ball game

40 The Coliseum Pavilion was located at 449 Lexington. This dance hall was just east of The Lexington (baseball) Park near Lexington and University. 41 Harriet Island was acquired by the City in 1929 and is located at 75 Water Street, across from downtown Saint Paul. It is named after Harriet E. Bishop, the first schoolteacher in Saint Paul.

49 during the day. So it would be an all day affair. That would be a good time for everybody.

KC: You use to play at Howard's Steak House.42 Can you tell me about Howard's? MC: Howard's Steak House is a place where the musicians would congregate after hours, after we got off our regular jobs. Actually the place was open

all evening and you could go there from nine 0' clock' til closing time. They would have a jam session, what was known as an old time jam session. All the guys would come and we would have what would be called a cutting contest; see who could outdo Projectthe other guy on any instrument. And all the musicians from around townSociety and traveling musicians-there would be a place like this in every town. Especially the traveling bands would find out where the sessions were that night, and that's where they would showHistory up. Everybody test each other's skills and it was just a big time. KC: So it would go fromOral eight until Historical early in the morning? MC: They would have to close up at the usual time. I think Mr. Howard, if he had a real hot session going on he let you playa little later. He'd lock the door, lock the people in and let the kids swing until they got tired, maybe oneRondo or two in the morning. KC: WhoMinnesota were some of the big names that would come over when they were in town? MC: Well, just about all of them that were coming through town because musicians are very competitive, almost as competitive as athletics. They

42 Howard's Steak Shop, owned by Leroy Howard and was located at 715 F. B. Olson Memorial Hwy in Minneapolis

50 love a challenge, you know. They'd see who the big cat local guys were in town and they would aim right for Howard's Steak House and they knew

they would be there. And then it was a lot of exchanging of ideas, because this is when jazz was popular. And there'd be a lot of guys from the

different colleges who were music majors that would come to get ideas. They'd have their pencil and papers there and there'd be a whole lot to

exchanging of ideas going on. A lot of that stuff would hit the mainstream American music in a matter of time. And there is so much of jazz incorporated in mainstream music now it is just unbelievable. Stuff that we played years ago, which was unacceptable thenProject because it was known as ghetto music. [Chuckles] Society KC: Did you ever hear any stories about where the name jazz came from? MC: Oh, I read books on it that it cameHistory out of brothels . Jazz was a synonym for another word. You probably know what that word is. KC: The story I heard was that in Black culture jazz was the term for sex, so when the White folksOral would come Historical to to watch this new style of dance they would ask, "What is this called?" To throw off the White folk they would say, "Oh it's the jazz." MC: That could be true, I have heard and read so many stories I am not sure whatRondo to believe anymore. But generally I believe it came from the brothels in the South.Minnesota Exactly how the music became know as jazz I can't say as I wasn't there. It would all be second and third hand information. KC: Howard's was a music place and it wasn't just a Black or White place?

MC: Black and White came there, and it was a restaurant actually. It was a steak house and that how he made his money, in the restaurant business.

51 Once he started getting the local musicians to come there and play and the

jam sessions started, he enjoyed it as much as anybody else. It became almost nationally known. Well, any city that the traveling bands went through had a place like this. And this was the place visiting musicians

would aim for as soon as they had any spare time to go and jam and exchange ideas. KC: Was this like in a back room?

MC: It was right in the main room. It wasn't a fancy place, just one big huge room. With a bandstand, and the kitchen was behind the bandstand.

KC: Last thing I wanted to ask you about was TreasureProject Inn.43 Was that a Black and White place, too? Society

MC: No, it wasn't a jam session type of place. It was a place that first I heard of it, the local musician PerseyHistory Hughes had a band there and he more or less made it famous. He got a lot of the students from the U and college type students would go there. And it was mostly a White place. And after Persey Hughes stoppedOral playing Historical there it became a Black and White place. Blacks were never excluded from there, but it was mostly students he played for. And I played there on several different occasions. A well­ Rondoknown club. KC: So when you were playing jazz after the war back here-actually [your son]Minnesota Melvin said you still go out and play often?

43 Treasure Inn was located 1685 Rice Street at Larpenteur near McCarron Lake. This was a legitimate establishment that served both Black and White patrons.

52 At Treasure Inn

Melvin Carter with suspenders played trumpet. Piano player was Buddy Davis, Base Project player Dave Society Faison

History

MC: I play sometimes. I play more now then I've ever played. Tomorrow I'm playing at the caves,Oral Wabasha StreetHistorical Caves.44 Do you know where that is? Wabasha Street Bridge and Plato. And the caves are right off to your right there. Been there for years under different housekeepers. Originally the

caves were where they used to grow mushrooms. The original people whoRondo had family owned [it] sold it out to these people who now have it. The cavesMinnesota are famous for the gangsters who used to hang out there years ago, and they have pictures of gangsters up there. In fact, they have a gangster tour. You can take this bus and they'll show you where there were big shootouts back in Twenties when prohibition was in, all that

44 Wabasha Street Caves are located at 215 South Wabash Street

53 stuff. It's a very interesting place. I'm playing there tomorrow tonight with a big band in the Forties tradition. And a lot of people from colleges come down there and they swing dance. They just have a ball. They just have a ball, I'm telling you. KC: Wow, how often to you still play. MC: I still play at least a couple times a month, sometimes more. We are going to have a CD release down at the Wabasha Street Caves. Our CD is in the

big band tradition. They cut the CD when I was ill this summer and waited for me to play the solos to mix it. It's still an honor to play.

Have I been keeping you awake or anything?Project KC: Yes you have! It's been wonderful. Anything else you'dSociety like to share with us. MC: I think you have just about Historyworn out my little memory. KC: You have been wonderful. Thank you sincerely. Oral Historical

The 67 years ... CartersRondo 1916-1983 Minnesota

(Front): Larry Moore, Melvin Carter III, Anika Carter, Mathew Carter Jr., ~illiam Frelix ~r., Paris Carter Miles Carter, Mathew Carter. (Back): Mark Carter, Larry Carter, TOni C art e ~, Melvin Carter Sr., Biilie Carter, Terry Frelix, William Frelix Sr., Jamie Frelix. (Not plcfured): M ~ l v l~ C8~e r Jr.

54