IICSA Inquiry - Child Protection in Religious Organisations and Settings 13 May 2020
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IICSA Inquiry - Child Protection in Religious Organisations and Settings 13 May 2020 1 Wednesday, 13 May 2020 1 voices up to make sure we can hear you, and if you can 2 (10.30 am) 2 speak slowly enough to make sure we can get a note of 3 THE CHAIR: Good morning, everybody, and welcome to Day 4 of 3 your evidence. 4 this public hearing. Please go ahead, Ms McNeill. 4 Documents will be brought up on screen throughout 5 MS McNEILL: Thank you, chair. Good morning. We start 5 your evidence. If it takes a couple of minutes, bear 6 today with two witnesses who will be giving evidence 6 with us. I will also let you know where to find it in 7 concurrently. We have Mr Moin Azmi from the Mosques and 7 the bundle in front of you. 8 Imams National Advisory Board, and Mr Shaukat Warraich 8 We will be taking a scheduled break at 11.30 am this 9 from Faith Associates. Can both witnesses please be 9 morning. If you need any other breaks before that, or 10 affirmed. 10 there any other problems, please just let me know. 11 MR MOIN UZZAMAN AZMI (affirmed) 11 Mr Azmi, I am going to start with you. Can you just 12 MR SHAUKAT WARRAICH (affirmed) 12 confirm your full name for us? 13 Examination by MS McNEILL 13 MR AZMI: Moin Uzzaman Azmi. 14 MS McNEILL: Good morning, both. Addressing you both 14 MS McNEILL: You provided a witness statement to this 15 together, if I can, at the outset, with some 15 inquiry dated 8 January 2020. That was signed with 16 preliminaries, this is not a memory test. I will have 16 a statement of truth. Can I please confirm, have you 17 questions for you today based upon your witness 17 had a chance to review that statement and make sure it 18 statements prepared for this inquiry and the bundle of 18 is true, to the best of your knowledge and belief? 19 documents in front of you. You might find it helpful to 19 MR AZMI: I have reviewed it. It is true, to my best 20 lift your own statement out of the bundle and keep it to 20 knowledge, and it is accurate and correct. 21 hand so you can always get back to it quickly whilst we 21 MS McNEILL: Thank you. You are quite softly spoken, so if 22 jump through the rest of the bundle. 22 you can, Mr Azmi, just keep your voice up a little bit. 23 I will address my questions to each of you in turn, 23 You are giving evidence today on behalf of 24 and I will make it clear to whom I am speaking. If you 24 the Mosques and Imams National Advisory Board. Can 25 can, throughout your evidence, make sure you keep your 25 I refer to that throughout as MINAB, just for ease. Page 1 Page 2 1 MR AZMI: Yes, you can. 1 engaged with on a kind of private basis were quite weak, 2 MS McNEILL: Can you please tell the panel what your role 2 so we created this organisation to kind of fundamentally 3 within MINAB is? 3 help them improve their governance. It was quite 4 MR AZMI: I'm the vice chair of MINAB. 4 quickly that we realised the Muslim community needed 5 MS McNEILL: Thank you. Mr Warraich, just moving across to 5 a lot more help than others at the time. 6 you, could you please confirm your full name? 6 Faith Associates fundamentally started to work on 7 MR WARRAICH: Shaukat Warraich. 7 governance, strategy, and then, when we started to work 8 MS McNEILL: You provided a statement to this inquiry dated 8 on governance, it -- quite clearly, safeguarding was 9 28 February 2020. Likewise, it was confirmed with 9 a very key component of that work, and we started to 10 a statement of truth. Can you confirm whether that 10 developing training programmes, courses and develop 11 statement is true, to the best of your knowledge and 11 infrastructure to implement safeguarding systems within 12 belief? 12 faith institutions. 13 MR WARRAICH: Yes, I can confirm that. 13 MS McNEILL: Just to draw out a couple of features of that 14 MS McNEILL: You are the chief executive officer at 14 evidence, does the Faith Associates work exclusively or 15 Faith Associates; is that correct? 15 predominantly with the Muslim community? 16 MR WARRAICH: That's correct. 16 MR WARRAICH: Not exclusively. We work with other faiths as 17 MS McNEILL: Mr Warraich, I am going to start my questions 17 well. But a lot of our work currently is with the 18 with you, whilst we have you on the screen. Can you 18 Muslim community. 19 please tell us what Faith Associates is and what they do 19 MS McNEILL: You started by focusing on governance in 20 as an organisation? 20 general. How much of your work now focuses on child 21 MR WARRAICH: Faith Associates was set up in 2004, 21 protection in particular? 22 fundamentally to try to look at developing proper 22 MR WARRAICH: In terms of child protection, literally, we 23 governance models, strategies and developing 23 are doing a level 1 and a level 2 training programme 24 capabilities in faith organisations, because we felt at 24 virtually every month, and that's been the case for the 25 the time that a lot of faith institutions that we were 25 past five years. Literally, every month, we will be Page 3 Page 4 1 (Pages 1 to 4) Epiq Europe Ltd www.epiqglobal.com Lower Ground 20 Furnival Street (+44)207 4041400 [email protected] London EC4A 1JS IICSA Inquiry - Child Protection in Religious Organisations and Settings 13 May 2020 1 doing at least one training programme somewhere in the 1 need. And because we -- I think we were the first 2 UK. 2 organisation in the western hemisphere to write a book 3 So I would say a lot of -- I mean, I would say -- 3 about mosque management and, within that context, we 4 because the organisation covers lots of things. We have 4 started to talk about child protection, because we felt 5 got a team of people. So governance and strategy and 5 that there was a clear gap in the Muslim institutions 6 leadership development I would say 60 per cent, and then 6 when it came to safeguarding practices. 7 safeguarding, child protection, other kind of regulatory 7 So we -- if I understood your question correctly, we 8 type of advice and training, 40 per cent. 8 fundamentally started to deliver child protection 9 MS McNEILL: Thank you. I am going to ask you questions 9 training because, one, we found that there was 10 largely about your work with the Muslim community, as 10 vulnerability within the institutions, because there 11 you're giving evidence together with MINAB today. But 11 weren't any systems in place, and this -- remember, this 12 if at any point you want to distinguish between your 12 is now 2007/2008. When I saw that vulnerability, in 13 experiences in the Muslim community and with other 13 2009, I wrote the next book about madrassa management 14 faiths or communities you've worked with, please let us 14 and safeguarding, and that, again, was the first book of 15 know, and just make it clear. 15 its kind in the western hemisphere, because we saw clear 16 You have said as part of your longer answer that it 16 vulnerability and we saw evidence of abuse in those 17 became clear that the Muslim organisations you were 17 institutions, and hence I wrote about it with guidance 18 working with needed some additional help around child 18 of how to implement child protection and safeguarding 19 protection. Again, was that distinct from any other 19 practices. 20 faiths you work with, was it particularly the Muslim 20 So from that guidance, clearly, when we distributed 21 organisations? 21 that for free -- and I think it's -- the document is in 22 MR WARRAICH: No. I mean, in terms of the distinction -- 22 the bundle as well as evidence, that when the community 23 because what we found was that we were being inundated 23 saw that piece of literature, then, again, we were 24 primarily for help and support from the Muslim 24 inundated with requests for assistance and help. 25 community. So obviously we were very much driven by the 25 The help was very much face to face. They requested Page 5 Page 6 1 us to come into their institution, audit, assess, review 1 mosque, or you've got a life proliferation now of those 2 and provide recommendations, and then, after those 2 institutions being developed outside of the mosques, 3 recommendations were given, provide training as well. 3 because the mosques don't have the capacity to deal 4 So that's been our modus operandi very much since 2008 4 with -- from our calculation, around about 300,000 young 5 until today. 5 Muslims that go to these places. 6 MS McNEILL: We will come back to some of the work that 6 The larger institutions, the 2,000 or so, the 7 you're doing, but, again, I just want to stick with 7 majority of them were set up from the '60s and '70s and 8 something you mentioned in that evidence.