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Home , Crispin Blunt, Dominic Raab, Michael Gove, Nadhim Zahawi, Nicholas Soames, Robert Courts

Tuesday Volume 664 3 September 2019 No. 338

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Tuesday 3 September 2019 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2019 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. HER MAJESTY’S GOVERNMENT

MEMBERS OF THE CABINET

(FORMED BY THE RT HON., MP, JULY 2019)

PRIME MINISTER,FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY AND MINISTER FOR THE CIVIL SERVICE—The Rt Hon. Boris Johnson, MP CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER—The Rt Hon. , MP SECRETARYOF STATE FOR FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH AFFAIRSAND FIRST SECRETARYOF STATE—TheRtHon.DominicRaab,MP SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT—The Rt Hon. , MP CHANCELLOR OF THE DUCHY OF LANCASTER—The Rt Hon. , MP AND SECRETARY OF STATE FOR JUSTICE—The Rt Hon. , QC, MP SECRETARY OF STATE FOR EXITING THE —The Rt Hon. , MP SECRETARY OF STATE FOR DEFENCE—The Rt Hon. , MP SECRETARY OF STATE FOR HEALTH AND SOCIAL CARE—The Rt Hon. , MP SECRETARY OF STATE FOR BUSINESS,ENERGY AND INDUSTRIAL STRATEGY—The Rt Hon. , MP SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INTERNATIONAL TRADE AND PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADE—The Rt Hon. Elizabeth Truss, MP SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WORK AND PENSIONS AND MINISTER FOR WOMEN AND EQUALITIES—The Rt Hon. , MP SECRETARY OF STATE FOR EDUCATION—The Rt Hon. CBE, MP SECRETARY OF STATE FOR ENVIRONMENT,FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS—The Rt Hon. , MP SECRETARY OF STATE FOR HOUSING,COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT—The Rt Hon. , MP SECRETARY OF STATE FOR TRANSPORT—The Rt Hon. , MP SECRETARY OF STATE FOR —The Rt Hon. Julian Smith, MP SECRETARY OF STATE FOR SCOTLAND—The Rt Hon. , MP SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WALES—The Rt Hon. , MP LEADER OF THE AND —The Rt Hon. Baroness Evans of Bowes Park SECRETARY OF STATE FOR DIGITAL,CULTURE,MEDIA AND SPORT—The Rt Hon. , MP SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT—The Rt Hon. , MP MINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO—The Rt Hon. , MP

DEPARTMENTS OF STATE AND MINISTERS Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt Hon. Andrea Leadsom, MP MINISTERS OF STATE— The Rt Hon. , MP (Minister for Business, Energy and Clean Growth) The Rt Hon. Joseph Johnson, MP (Minister for Universities, Science, Research and Innovation) § PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARIES OF STATE— , MP Nadhim Zahawi, MP Lord Duncan of Springbank § PRIME MINISTER,FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY AND MINISTER FOR THE CIVIL SERVICE—The Rt Hon. Boris Johnson, MP CHANCELLOR OF THE DUCHY OF LANCASTER—The Rt Hon. Michael Gove, MP MINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO—The Rt Hon. James Cleverly, MP MINISTERS OF STATE— The Rt Hon. CBE, MP (Minister for the Cabinet Office and ) The Rt Hon. , MP (Minister for the Northern Powerhouse and Local Growth) § LEADER OF THE HOUSE OF COMMONS AND LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL—The Rt Hon. Jacob Rees-Mogg, MP LEADER OF THE HOUSE OF LORDS AND LORD PRIVY SEAL—The Rt. Hon. Baroness Evans of Bowes Park PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARIES— , MP Kevin Foster, MP (Interim) § , MP Johnny Mercer, MP (Minister for Defence People and Veterans) § Defence SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt Hon. Ben Wallace, MP MINISTERS OF STATE— The Rt Hon. Mark Lancaster TD, MP (Minister for the Armed Forces) Baroness Goldie DL PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARIES OF STATE— Anne-Marie Trevelyan, MP Johnny Mercer, MP (Minister for Defence People and Veterans) § ii HER MAJESTY’S GOVERNMENT—cont.

Digital, Culture, Media and Sport SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt Hon. Nicky Morgan, MP —Nigel Adams, MP (Minister for Sport, Media and Creative Industries) PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARIES OF STATE— Rebecca Pow, MP Matt Warman, MP Baroness Barran MBE Education SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt Hon. Gavin Williamson CBE, MP MINISTERS OF STATE— The Rt Hon. , MP (Minister for School Standards) The Rt Hon. Joseph Johnson, MP (Minister for Universities, Science, Research and Innovation) § PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARIES OF STATE— , MP Lord Agnew Environment, Food and Rural Affairs SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt Hon. Theresa Villiers, MP MINISTERS OF STATE— Thérèse Coffey, MP , MP PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARIES OF STATE— , MP § Lord Gardiner of Kimble Exiting the European Union SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt Hon. Stephen Barclay, MP MINISTER OF STATE—Lord Callanan PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE—, MP Foreign and Commonwealth Office SECRETARY OF STATE AND —The Rt Hon. , MP MINISTERS OF STATE— The Rt Hon. , MP (Minister for Europe and the Americas) The Rt Hon. Dr Andrew Murrison, MP (Minister for the and North Africa) § , MP () § Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Minister for the Commonwealth, the UN and South Asia) PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE—Heather Wheeler, MP Health and Social Care SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt Hon. Matt Hancock, MP MINISTERS OF STATE— , MP (Minister for Health) , MP (Minister for Care) PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARIES OF STATE— , MP , MP Baroness Blackwood SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt Hon. Priti Patel, MP MINISTERS OF STATE— The Rt Hon. , MP (Minister for Security and Deputy for EU Exit and No Deal Preparation) , MP (Minister for Crime, Policing and the Fire Service) Baroness Williams of Trafford (Minister for Countering Extremism) § PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARIES OF STATE— Victoria Atkins, MP § Seema Kennedy, MP Housing, Communities and Local Government SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt Hon. Robert Jenrick, MP MINISTERS OF STATE— The Rt. Hon. Esther McVey, MP (Minister for Housing) The Rt Hon. Jake Berry, MP (Minister for the Northern Powerhouse and Local Growth) § PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARIES OF STATE— Luke Hall, MP Viscount Younger of Leckie HER MAJESTY’S GOVERNMENT—cont. iii

International Development SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt Hon. Alok Sharma, MP MINISTERS OF STATE— The Rt. Hon. Dr Andrew Murrison, MP § Andrew Stephenson, MP § PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARIES OF STATE— Zac Goldsmith, MP § Baroness Sugg CBE International Trade SECRETARY OF STATE AND PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADE—The Rt Hon. Elizabeth Truss, MP MINISTER OF STATE—Conor Burns, MP PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE—Graham Stuart, MP Justice LORD CHANCELLOR AND SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt Hon. Robert Buckland, QC, MP MINISTER OF STATE—, QC, MP PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARIES OF STATE— , MP Edward Argar, MP ADVOCATE GENERAL FOR SCOTLAND—The Rt Hon. Lord Keen of Elie, QC Law Officers ATTORNEY GENERAL—The Rt. Hon. Geoffrey Cox, QC, MP SOLICITOR GENERAL—Michael Ellis, QC, MP ADVOCATE GENERAL FOR SCOTLAND—The Rt Hon. Lord Keen of Elie, QC Leader of the House of Commons LEADER OF THE HOUSE OF COMMONS AND LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL—The Rt Hon. Jacob Rees-Mogg, MP Leader of the House of Lords LEADER OF THE HOUSE OF LORDS AND LORD PRIVY SEAL—The Rt. Hon. Baroness Evans of Bowes Park DEPUTY LEADER OF THE HOUSE OF LORDS—The Rt Hon. Earl Howe SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt Hon. Julian Smith, MP MINISTER OF STATE—The Rt Hon. Nick Hurd, MP PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARIES OF STATE— , MP § Lord Duncan of Springbank § Scotland Office SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt Hon. Alister Jack, MP PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARIES OF STATE— Colin Clark, MP § Robin Walker, MP § Transport SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt Hon. Grant Shapps, MP MINISTERS OF STATE— Chris Heaton-Harris, MP George Freeman, MP PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARIES OF STATE— Nusrat Ghani, MP § Paul Maynard, MP Baroness Vere of Norbiton Treasury PRIME MINISTER,FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY AND MINISTER FOR THE CIVIL SERVICE—The Rt Hon. Boris Johnson, MP CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER—The Rt Hon. Sajid Javid, MP CHIEF SECRETARY—The Rt Hon. , MP FINANCIAL SECRETARY—, MP ECONOMIC SECRETARY—, MP EXCHEQUER SECRETARY—Simon Clarke, MP PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY—The Rt Hon. Mark Spencer, MP — , MP Michelle Donelan, MP , MP , MP Nusrat Ghani, MP § Colin Clark, MP § iv HER MAJESTY’S GOVERNMENT—cont.

ASSISTANT WHIPS— Kevin Foster, MP § , MP James Morris, MP Tom Pursglove, MP , MP Marcus Jones, MP Iain Stewart, MP UK Export Finance SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INTERNATIONAL TRADE AND PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADE—The Rt Hon. Elizabeth Truss, MP Wales Office SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt Hon. Alun Cairns, MP PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE—Kevin Foster, MP § Work and Pensions SECRETARY OF STATE AND MINISTER FOR WOMEN AND EQUALITIES—The Rt Hon. Amber Rudd, MP MINISTER OF STATE—Justin Tomlinson, MP (Minister for Disabled People, Health and Work) PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARIES OF STATE— , MP , MP Guy Opperman, MP Baroness Stedman-Scott OBE, DL Baroness Williams of Trafford (Minister for Equalities) § Victoria Atkins, MP (Minister for Women) § Her Majesty’s Household LORD CHAMBERLAIN—The Rt Hon. Earl Peel GCVO, DL LORD STEWARD—The Earl of Dalhousie MASTER OF THE HORSE—Lord de Mauley TREASURER—, MP COMPTROLLER—, MP VICE-CHAMBERLAIN—Stewart Andrew, MP CAPTAIN OF THE HONOURABLE CORPS OF GENTLEMEN-AT-ARMS—The Rt Hon. Lord Ashton of Hyde CAPTAIN OF THE QUEEN’S BODYGUARD OF THE YEOMEN OF THE GUARD—Earl of Courtown BARONESSES IN WAITING— Baroness Berridge of The Vale of Catmose Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist Baroness Chisholm of Owlpen LORD IN WAITING—Lord Bethell of Romford § Members of the Government listed under more than one Department

SECOND CHURCH ESTATES COMMISSIONER,REPRESENTING THE CHURCH COMMISSIONERS—The Rt. Hon. Dame , MP REPRESENTING THE SPEAKER’S COMMITTEE ON THE ELECTORAL COMMISSION—Bridget Phillipson, MP REPRESENTING THE SPEAKER’S COMMITTEE FOR PARLIAMENTARY STANDARDS AUTHORITY—Mr Charles Walker, MP REPRESENTING THE HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION—The Rt Hon. Tom Brake, MP CHAIRMAN OF THE PUBLIC ACCOUNTS COMMISSION—The Rt Hon. Sir Edward Leigh, MP HOUSE OF COMMONS

THE SPEAKER—The Rt Hon. , MP CHAIRMAN OF WAYS AND MEANS—The Rt Hon. Sir , MP FIRST DEPUTY CHAIRMAN OF WAYS AND MEANS—The Rt Hon. Dame , MP SECOND DEPUTY CHAIRMAN OF WAYS AND MEANS—The Rt Hon. Dame Rosie Winterton, MP

PANEL OF CHAIRS— Sir , , Mr Adrian Bailey, Sir Henry Bellingham, Mr Clive Betts, Mr , Sir Graham Brady, Ms Karen Buck, Sir Christopher Chope, Sir David Crausby, Geraint Davies, , Ms Nadine Dorries, Mr Nigel Evans, The Rt Hon. Sir , Mike Gapes, The Rt Hon. Dame , James Gray, The Rt Hon. David Hanson, Mr Philip Hollobone, Stewart Hosie, The Rt Hon. Sir George Howarth, The Rt Hon. Sir Edward Leigh, Mrs , Steve McCabe, Siobhain McDonagh, Mrs Madeleine Moon, Albert Owen, Ian Paisley, Mark Pritchard, Mr Laurence Robertson, , The Rt Hon. Joan Ryan, Mr Virendra Sharma, Sir , , Mr Charles Walker, Phil Wilson SECRETARY—Chris Stanton

HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION— The Rt Hon. The Speaker (Chairman), Ian Ailles (Director General of the House of Commons), Dr John Benger (Clerk of the House and Head of the House of Commons Service), Sir , MP, The Rt Hon. Tom Brake, MP, Jane McCall (External Member), Dr Rima Makarem (External Member), The Rt Hon. Jacob Rees-Mogg, MP (Leader of the House), Valerie Vaz, MP, The Rt Hon. Dame Rosie Winterton, MP, Pete Wishart, MP SECRETARY OF THE COMMISSION—Marianne Cwynarski ASSISTANT SECRETARY—Robert Cope

ADMINISTRATION ESTIMATE AUDIT AND RISK ASSURANCE COMMITTEE AND MEMBERS ESTIMATE AUDIT COMMITTEE— Dr Rima Makarem (Chair), Sir Paul Beresford, MP, Mr Clive Betts, MP, The Rt Hon. Tom Brake, MP, Jane McCall, Bob Scruton SECRETARY—John-Paul Flaherty

COMMONS EXECUTIVE BOARD— Mostaque Ahmed (Finance Director and Managing Director, Finance, Portfolio and Performance), Ian Ailles (Director General of the House of Commons), Carlos Bamford (Managing Director, In-House Services), Dr John Benger (Clerk of the House and Head of the House of Commons Service), Sarah Davies (Clerk Assistant and Managing Director, Chamber and Committees), Mandy Eddolls (Managing Director, HR and Diversity), David Hemming (Managing Director, Strategic Estates), Eric Hepburn (Director of Security for Parliament), Tracey Jessup (Director of the Parliamentary Digital Service), Dr Edge Watchorn (Managing Director, Participation), Penny Young (Librarian and Managing Director, Research and Information) SECRETARY OF THE BOARD—Rhiannon Hollis

SPEAKER’S SECRETARY—Peter Barratt SPEAKER’S COUNSEL—Saira Salimi SPEAKER’S CHAPLAIN—Rev. Rose Hudson-Wilkin

PARLIAMENTARY COMMISSIONER FOR STANDARDS—Kathryn Stone

3 September 2019

1 3 SEPTEMBER 2019 2 THE PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES OFFICIAL REPORT

IN THE FIRST SESSION OF THE FIFTY-SEVENTH PARLIAMENT OF THE OF GREAT BRITAIN AND NORTHERN IRELAND [WHICH OPENED 13 JUNE 2017]

SIXTY-EIGHTH YEAR OF THE REIGN OF HER MAJESTY QUEEN ELIZABETH II

SIXTH SERIES VOLUME 664 THIRTY-NINTH VOLUME OF SESSION 2017-2019

The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth House of Commons Affairs and First Secretary of State (Dominic Raab): May start by paying tribute to my right hon. Friend the Member for South West (Mr Hunt) for the Tuesday 3 September 2019 exceptional job he did as and for the professionalism and integrity with which he conducted The House met at half-past Two o’clock himself? We are concerned about the situation in Kashmir. I spoke to Foreign Minister Jaishankar on 7 August. We PRAYERS want to see a reduction in tensions in Kashmir, respect for internationally recognised human rights and steps taken on all sides to rebuild confidence. [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] Hugh Gaffney: Doctors have warned that the political situation in Kashmir is leading to a shortage of medicines and that hospitals are being left unable to provide Oral Answers to Questions treatment for patients. This is because Kashmir receives over 90% of its medical supplies from India. If this situation is not resolved, Kashmir faces the real risk of a major public health crisis.What steps will the Government FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE take to sort it out?

Dominic Raab: The hon. Gentleman is right to talk The Secretary of State was asked— not just about the theoretical nature of the dispute, but Kashmir about what it means for communities in Kashmir. It is important that internationally recognised human rights 1. Hugh Gaffney (Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill) are fully respected, and the way through the tensions is (Lab): What recent assessment he has made of the with a constructive political dialogue. The dispute between political situation in Kashmir. [912239] India and Pakistan in relation to Kashmir is fundamentally for them to resolve, as recognised in UN Security Council 17. Dr Paul Williams (Stockton South) (Lab): What resolutions and the Simla agreement. recent discussions he has had with his international counterparts on the political situation in Kashmir. Dr Williams: The Kashmiri community in Stockton [912256] South are understandably concerned about the safety and human rights of the people of Kashmir. Does the 20. Paul Blomfield (Sheffield Central) (Lab): What Secretary of State believe that there is a role for the recent representations he has made to the Indian United Nations or other independent parties to monitor Government on that Government’s policies in relation and report on the alleged human rights abuses to ensure to Kashmir. [912259] that the Kashmiri people are protected?

23. Alison Thewliss ( Central) (SNP): What Dominic Raab: The hon. Gentleman will know that diplomatic steps he is taking to secure peace in Kashmir; there have been UN Security Council resolutions on the and if he will make a statement. [912262] situation in Kashmir in the past and that this is something 3 Oral Answers 3 SEPTEMBER 2019 Oral Answers 4 that the General Assembly has looked at. Fundamentally, Kashmiris in Wycombe but also right across the country. though, the UN also recognises that the dispute over The issue of human rights is not just a bilateral, or Kashmir between Pakistan and India is for them to domestic issue for India or Pakistan; it is an international resolve. The hon. Gentleman makes the point—as others issue. He is absolutely right to say that we should, with will and have—that there are internationally recognised all our partners,expect internationally recognised standards human rights at stake. They are duties owed to the of human rights to be complied with and respected. international community at large, and we will certainly be scrutinising the situation carefully to see that those Mr (North West ) (Con): rights are respected. Following the action by the Indian Government in Kashmir, on 15 August, Indian independence day, a Paul Blomfield: In Sheffield on Saturday, there was a group of British Indians gathered outside the Indian big protest of people who felt that the Foreign Secretary’s high commission in , but they were attacked by response to the crisis has not been good enough. Will he members of another community. Will my right hon. therefore commit to working through the United Nations Friend confirm that the violence and abuse targeted and the Commonwealth to strengthen international towards the British Indian community on that occasion pressure on India to restore Kashmir’s special status are completely unacceptable, as they would be against and to working with both India and Pakistan to secure any community on the streets of the UK? a long-term solution based on the 1948 UN resolution, so that there can be a plebiscite for the people of Dominic Raab: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Kashmir to determine their own future? Any violence is deplorable. It should not be conducted in this country, or anywhere else for that matter, against Dominic Raab: The hon. Gentleman expresses his any individual communities. We now need to try to concerns powerfully and I understand how keenly they reduce these tensions but also, on a positive side, to are felt. I have already referred to the UN Security build confidence-building measures to allow proper dialogue Council resolutions and to the Simla agreement. It is between the communities in Kashmir but also between not correct to say that we have not been seized of this India and Pakistan. issue. The Prime Minister spoke to the Indian Prime Minister, Prime Minister Modi, on 20 August and the Mrs Anne Main (St Albans) (Con): I have met my Pakistani Prime Minister, Imran Khan, on 7 August. I Pakistani and Indian communities, who are very concerned raised concerns about the situation with Indian Foreign about the Kashmir situation. The revocation of article 370 Minister Jaishankar on 7 August. We will obviously be of the Indian constitution without involving the Kashmiri monitoring the situation carefully and talking to people was particularly heinous. If Amnesty International international partners in relation to it. is to be believed, and I think it is, we should have learned from the Rohingya crisis to know that this is Alison Thewliss: The large Kashmiri community in another crisis emerging now. We must take the firmest Glasgow Central are deeply concerned about their friends steps to condemn it and do what we can. and relatives in Kashmir, particularly given the media blackout and the curfew that has been imposed. What has the Secretary of State done to raise both those Dominic Raab: We are aware of the implications of issues, and what does he intend to do to ensure that the the revocation of article 370, which has caused interest Kashmiri people have the right to self-determination? and concern not just within India and Pakistan but amongcommunitiesthroughouttheUKandinternationally. Dominic Raab: On the issues of detentions, potential It is a bilateral issue for India and Pakistan but also an mistreatment and communications blackouts that the international issue, given the human rights at stake. hon. Lady has raised, I have raised those issues with the Indian Foreign Minister. The Indian Government have (Harrow East) (Con): It has been a made it clear that the measures are only temporary, as long-standing policy of the Government that the situation strictly required, and we of course want to hold them to in Jammu and Kashmir is a bilateral issue. It has also that undertaking. been this House that stands up for human rights and the protection of minorities. Therefore, does my right Mr (Wycombe) (Con): Events in Kashmir hon. Friend agree that the abolition of article 370, are of the most profound and immediate importance to which discriminates against women and minority religions, thousands of my constituents, because British Kashmiris is to be welcomed? often have family and friends on not one but both sides of the line of control, and they are in frequent FaceTime, Dominic Raab: My hon. Friend makes the point that email and Skype contact, just like anybody else, even to there are different sides to this. But the reality is that the second and third generations of migrant. Does my there have been widespread reports and concerns about right hon. Friend agree that in such circumstances they detentions, mistreatments and the communications must have active representation not just from their MPs blackout. There was a UN Security Council discussion but from the Government? Will he therefore join me in on Kashmir on 16 August. As well as wanting to respect saying that the time has come to reassure them on the the constitutional arrangements within India and in human rights of their families and friends and to ask relation to Kashmir,there are implications internationally, for independent observers in Kashmir? particularly as they touch on internationally respected and recognised human rights. Dominic Raab: I know the scale of the community that my hon. Friend has in Wycombe—I believe it is Imran Hussain (Bradford East) (Lab): I refer Members over 10,000. I understand how keenly this is felt among to my registered interest. 5 Oral Answers 3 SEPTEMBER 2019 Oral Answers 6

For over four years, I have stood in this place and Dominic Raab: Toanswer the shadow Foreign Secretary’s warned Members of the ongoing persecution, oppression question, yes, specifically the issue of detentions, as well and injustice that the sons and daughters of Kashmir as the blackouts. We have made clear our concern and face daily. That situation has now escalated as a result the fact that we need to see—particularly in a great of the revocation of articles 370 and 35A, and the democracy,asthehon.Ladysays—internationallyrecognised humanitarian situation as a result of the blockade. The human rights respected. reality is that we see up to 10,000 people arrested without due process, and food and medicine shortages. Amazon Forest Fires This is a humanitarian crisis. The United Nations Security Council meeting and not even agreeing a condemnation 2. Chris Law (Dundee West) (SNP): What recent is not something that this House should welcome. What discussions he has had with his Brazilian counterpart is the Minister doing to end the draconian blockade, at on the forest fires in the Amazon rain forest. [912240] the very least? 5. Daniel Zeichner (Cambridge) (Lab): What diplomatic Dominic Raab: I think it would be obvious to the steps his Department is taking to help tackle the fires in hon. Gentleman that, as much as I sympathise with his the Amazon rain forest. [912244] concerns and understand the heartfelt way in which he makes his points, we cannot alone end that blockade. 15. Hannah Bardell (Livingston) (SNP): What recent There has been a discussion about it within the UN Security discussions he has had with his Brazilian counterpart Council. All and any allegations of human rights violations on the forest fires in the Amazon rain forest. [912254] are deeply concerning, and they must be investigated thoroughly, promptly and transparently. The Minister for Europe and the Americas (Christopher Pincher): On 27 August, my right hon. Friend the Several hon. Members rose— Foreign Secretary spoke to the Brazilian Foreign Minister, Mr Araújo. I will also be seeing the Brazilian ambassador, MrSpeaker:TextbookbrevityfromDameCherylGillan. Mr Arruda, tomorrow, to reaffirm our commitment to working in partnership with Brazil on a range of issues, Dame Cheryl Gillan (Chesham and ) (Con): including the environment. In response to the very Thank you, Mr Speaker. Like my hon. Friend the Member serious fires, the Prime Minister announced at the G7 for Wycombe (Mr Baker), I have many constituents £10 million for protection and restoration of the rain who are highly concerned about this. The revocation of forest. That is in addition to the £120 million of funding article 35A affects property ownership and rights in we provide through our other programmes. Jammu and Kashmir, and many of my constituents are veryfrightenedthatthiscouldleadtoadramatictransformation Chris Law: While we welcome the £10 million that the from majority Muslim to majority Hindu. The new UK Government have committed to help to restore Prime Minister is famed for being robust. Can he now the Amazonian rain forest, it is paltry compared with be robust in defending the rights of these people and the amount spent on advertising for the debacle. their families? Can the Foreign Secretary tell me whether the money is spent by local partners in a way that ensures that Dominic Raab: My right hon. Friend raises the issue indigenous people will take charge of the process to that others have raised, but in a particularly poignant reforest their homes and protect our planet? What further way. The reality is that we have raised the issues around funding is he willing to pledge ? human rights. We have been clear both in our direct dealings with the Indian Government and at the Christopher Pincher: I welcome the hon. Gentleman’s international level that any reports or allegations concerning passion for the issue. I can confirm that we spend human rights must be dealt with transparently,thoroughly £120 million through our international climate finance and rigorously, and human rights standards must be programme. That goes to help to tackle deforestation respected. and to help sustainable farming, and it complements the trading activities that we have with Brazil, which Liz McInnes (Heywood and Middleton) (Lab): Alongside ensure that the Brazilian economy grows and prospers, the revocation of article 370, the Indian authorities including for those farmers, who are part and parcel of have detained more than 4,000 Kashmiris without charge the problem, burning some of the rain forest. in the last month—not just political activists, but ordinary civilians. There are widespread allegations of torture, Daniel Zeichner: Over 120,000 people have already and many families do not know where their loved ones petitioned this Parliament, urging trade sanctions to be are being held. This is no way for the largest democracy used against Brazil to put pressure on it. Given that a in the world to behave, let alone a member of the Minister was in Brazil recently, what pressure was put Commonwealth. Can the Secretary of State tell us what on by this Government? protests he has made to India about those detentions? Christopher Pincher: The Minister of State, Department Dominic Raab: As I explained to the House—I am for International Trade, my hon. Friend the Member happy to repeat it—the concerns and issues that the for Bournemouth West (Conor Burns), was there as hon. Lady has raised are very serious, and I raised them part of our international trade obligations, to ensure directly with Foreign Minister Jaishankar on 7 August. that we build trade with our strategic partners, such as Brazil. I will be seeing the Brazilian ambassador tomorrow (Islington South and Finsbury) and making clear that we want to help Brazil with its (Lab): And detentions? difficulties in these terrible fires, but also that we want 7 Oral Answers 3 SEPTEMBER 2019 Oral Answers 8 to trade with it, because that is a way of building its Mrs Pauline Latham (Mid Derbyshire) (Con): I have economy and ensuring that the sorts of fires that are spent some of the summer in the Ecuadorian rain forest currently raging are put out and stay out. —part of the same Amazon rain forest that we are talking about. What other countries have made representations Hannah Bardell: Last week, both the Taoiseach and to Brazil about the damage that it is doing to the world, French President said that they will attempt to block not just to Brazil? the Mercosur trade agreement if Brazil does not honour its environmental commitments. Does the Minister agree Christopher Pincher: The fires that are currently raging that the burning of the Amazon is a human and do not just affect Brazil; they also affect, for example, environmental tragedy that requires a global solution Bolivia. Bolivia is concerned about this, as is Venezuela, and this is no time for fragile male egos or social media Peru and Colombia. So I think an international response spats? What steps has he taken to ensure that such is helpful. Certainly, those neighbouring countries that situations receive an urgent and immediate multilateral can help Brazil with its difficulties should be encouraged response now and in the future? to do so.

Christopher Pincher: I hope that the hon. Lady will Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab): The fires not think that my response is in any way macho. My have affected 650 million acres of Amazon rain forest. concern is to make sure that the trade with our two In his answer just now, the Minister revealed that he did countries prospers and that the Mercosur arrangement not understand that the problem with the Mercosur succeeds. It will result in the removal of something like trade deal is that cutting beef tariffs incentivises destruction 91% of present tariffs. That can only be to the benefit of of the rain forest. What proposals will the Government Brazilian farmers and to the benefit of the Brazilian be putting forward at the Chile conference on climate economy. If we help to ensure that these sensible trade change in November? arrangements are made, those fires can be put out and they will stay out. Christopher Pincher: As the hon. Lady should know, high agricultural tariffs hurt the poorest. That will only encourage them to do the easy thing, which is to burn (Chelmsford) (Con): It has been suggested land, rather than to farm it sustainably and protect the that changes to trade flows between the US and rain forest. Mercosur is a sensible free trade agreement may be fuelling some of the Amazon forest fires. Does which should be encouraged, and I trust that in the my right hon. Friend agree that all leading nations fullness of time we also will undertake a free trade deal should be working together to stop that devastation? with Brazil—more details of that, I am sure, are to come. What conversations are taking place with other leading countries? Hong Kong Christopher Pincher: My right hon. Friend the Foreign 3. Mr Virendra Sharma (Ealing, Southall) (Lab): Secretary met other Foreign Ministers at Gymnich earlier What recent representations he has made to the Hong in the week. He has made clear the concern that we have Kong Government on the political situation in Hong about those fires. He has also made absolutely clear the Kong. [912242] importance that we believe trade has to building economies in South America and in the far east, which encourages 4. (Wimbledon) (Con): What recent a better response to such tragedies. assessment he has made of the political situation in Hong Kong. [912243] James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con): Deforestation in the Amazon is indeed a catastrophe of global and 6.GillianKeegan(Chichester)(Con):Whatrepresentations generational proportions. We must of course do the he has made to his Chinese counterpart on (a) tackling right things about it and I very much welcome the violenceand(b)encouragingconstructivepoliticaldialogue pressure that the Minister has described, but is he not in Hong Kong. [912245] also aware of the fact that the deforestation of the Amazon has decreased quite considerably over the last 13.MrPhilipDunne(Ludlow)(Con):Whatrepresentations 20 years, and that while it was very, very bad, it is very he has made to his Chinese counterpart on (a) tackling much less bad than it was; and equally that the level of violenceand(b)encouragingconstructivepoliticaldialogue decrease, therefore, in the size of the forest has been in Hong Kong. [912252] reduced? Does the Minister therefore agree that this is a domestic matter for the Brazilian Government and that The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth we must persuade them to do the right thing, rather Affairs and First Secretary of State (Dominic Raab): We than confronting or berating them? are seriously concerned, and increasingly concerned, about the situation in Hong Kong. Of course we condemn Christopher Pincher: I certainly think it is better to any violence, but we absolutely support the right to talk than to engage in megaphone hectoring. Deforestation peaceful and lawful protests on Hong Kong. The route has increased over the last few years. It has in fact been to resolution through the current situation is via meaningful increasing in Brazil since 2015—some time before the political dialogue, taken forward under the high degree present Government took office. I think it is right that of autonomy that Hong Kong has under the model of we engage with them—that we try to persuade them to one country and two systems. use sensible methods to reduce and stop this problem. It is an international concern, and that is why we have Mr Sharma: I welcome the new Foreign Secretary to raised it, and will continue to raise it, with the Brazilian his position and congratulate him on taking up the role authorities. at a time of such calm. I asked his predecessor in June 9 Oral Answers 3 SEPTEMBER 2019 Oral Answers 10 whether he would extend an invitation to any Hong international level, more and more interlocutors are Kong citizens at risk of persecution. Will the Secretary expressing their concern about this matter. It is not just of State do his moral duty under the 1984 joint declaration? an issue for the people of Hong Kong, or for us, given our historical relationship with China and Hong Kong; Dominic Raab: I thank the hon. Gentleman and it is now an issue of widespread international concern. respect the fact that he has a longstanding interest in this issue. Under the one country, two systems model, Catherine West (Hornsey and Wood Green) (Lab): and its manifestation through the joint declaration signed Will the Foreign Secretary update the House on whether by the UK and China, which has treaty status, we gave a in his conversation with Ms Lam on 9 August he range of residents in Hong Kong British national (overseas) specifically raised the question of moving towards universal status. The importance of that is that we do not want to suffrage to elect the Chief Executive and the Legislative unpick, at least at this time, one part of the one country, Council members? two systems model. If we do that, we risk its not being respected on the Chinese side. Dominic Raab: I talked to Ms Lam about our short-term concerns about violence and protecting internationally Stephen Hammond: I welcome my right hon. Friend recognised human rights standards, which are of course, to his position. I was pleased to hear his comments as the hon. Lady knows, reflected in the joint declaration. about the UK Government’s steadfast support for the We also had an exchange of views about the fact that joint declaration and the one country, two systems there are such widespread protests in Hong Kong that principle. Will he make sure that we continue to reiterate they cannot be put down to a small number who are that very strongly, because that is a mechanism for engaged in violence. There needs to be meaningful driving peace in the solution? political dialogue that touches on people’sdeeper concerns about the autonomy of Hong Kong being respected. Dominic Raab: My hon. Friend is right. I raised those issues with the Chinese Foreign Minister,State Councillor Chuka Umunna (Streatham) (LD): The demonstrators , on 31 July. I also spoke to the Hong Kong have acted largely peacefully, but everyone in the House Chief Executive, Carrie Lam, on 9 August. We support will have seen the footage of the police acting in an the one country, two systems model. It is important, as unjustified and extremely violent manner. With that in reflected in the joint declaration and the treaty-binding mind, will the Foreign Secretary commit to ensuring obligations that have been made, including to the people that the UK is not exporting crowd control equipment— of Hong Kong—and including to respect the right of water cannons, tear gas and so on—until that independent lawful and peaceful protest—that that is adhered to on inquiry has been carried out and adequate safeguards all sides. have been put in place, and will he encourage our international partners to do the same? : I, too, welcome the Secretary of State to his position. The Hong Kong police recently made Dominic Raab: This is something we are now discussing further arrests, including of a 12-year-old girl. Violence more and more with our international partners in all is escalating, with reports that police are now using live parts of the world. It is not just a European issue; rounds in conjunction with tear gas and water cannons. transatlantically there are concerns, too. We have raised What representations has he made to the Chinese the issue, to which the hon. Gentleman refers, of a Government to ensure that violence is met with a disproportionate response. We also recognise that there proportional police response and that minors caught up has been violence. The answer and the solution is to in the protest movement are adequately safeguarded? reduce tensions and to respect the lawful and peaceful right of protest of the people of Hong Kong, but also Dominic Raab: My hon. Friend is right. I have raised to have moves and stepping stones towards the dialogue those issues with both the Chinese Foreign Minister that will actually resolve the issue. and the Chief Executive. In relation to the conduct of the police, let us recognise some of the violence on the 16. [912255] Mr (Isle of Wight) (Con): I ground that they have to deal with, but in relation to declare that this weekend I went to Hong Kong as a disproportionate actions and overreactions it is very guest of a group of democracy activists to witness the clear: the Independent Police Complaints Council is overwhelmingly peaceful demonstrations. Does the carrying out an inquiry. The point that I have made is Foreign Secretary agree that the fundamental problem that it has to be credible, and has to command the trust is that there are people fighting for their rights under of the people of Hong Kong. That is what international the two systems, one country model, when the observers will look to see. authoritarian state China wishes to replace that model with the one system, one country model? Mr Dunne: I welcome my right hon. Friend’s comments on the Sino-British joint declaration and how he is Dominic Raab: My hon. Friend is very knowledgeable using it to engage with his counterparts in China. Can in this area and I respect the fact that he has huge he give the House any information on whether international expertise. It is not clear, in truth, what the position in forums can be used to support the case that we are Beijing is. Actually, if we look at all its public statements, making that China should uphold its obligations to the we see that it sticks and adheres to the position of one people of Hong Kong, with the one country, two systems country, two systems. That provides the model that can approach? resolve this situation, but we need to have respect for the lawful right of protest. We need to have stepping Dominic Raab: I share my right hon. Friend’s concern. stones to build confidence towards a track of political The route through this is to de-escalate the tensions and dialogue. That is the route through the current situation to respect the one country, two systems model. At the and to avoid it escalating any further. 11 Oral Answers 3 SEPTEMBER 2019 Oral Answers 12

Zimbabwe and I will speak to him again later this afternoon. We have regular ministerial contact, including through the 7. Sir Nicholas Soames (Mid Sussex) (Con): What Joint Ministerial Council with , which has met recent assessment he has made of the UK’s diplomatic nine times since its formation three years ago. Ministers relations with . [912246] and officials across the Government are working closely with the Government of Gibraltar in preparation for The Minister for Africa (Andrew Stephenson): We are Brexit. Gibraltar is and will remain a vital part of our gravely concerned at the heavy-handed response to protests family, whatever the shape of our exit from the EU on in Harare on 16 August and the recent arrest and 31 October. abductions of Opposition figures. President Mnangagwa must hold to account those responsible for human Robert Neill: I refer to my entry in the Register of rights violations. We have made our position clear to Members’ Financial Interests. I welcome my right hon. the Zimbabwe Government that UK support depends Friend to his post and his early engagement with Her on fundamental political and economic reform. Zimbabwe Majesty’s Government over Gibraltar. Will he bear in must now translate its commitment into actions. mind and make it quite clear that we fully support Gibraltar politically and in practical terms as we leave Sir Nicholas Soames: Does my hon. Friend agree that the European Union? In particular, will he deal with the President Mnangagwa and his Administration have been practical measures relating to the vast number of foodstuffs a grave disappointment to this country and indeed to and the workforce that currently come across the border, their own countrymen? Does he nevertheless also agree which must be resolved before we leave? that the aid we give to Zimbabwe, particularly the DFID aid that goes into education, is absolutely vital Christopher Pincher: No one is more doughty in his and plays an extraordinarily good role in Zimbabwean championship of Gibraltar than my hon. Friend, and I education? Will he assure me that at the same time as am grateful for his kind words. Let me assure him—as keeping up the pressure on human rights and making the Prime Minister has assured the Chief Minister—that absolutely clear our horror at the behaviour of President the United Kingdom will protect Gibraltar’s interests as Mnangagwa and his gang of thugs, we will continue to we leave the EU. From 1967 to 2002, at all points in support the education system in Zimbabwe? between and since, we have said that Gibraltar is going to remain a vital part of our family. The Government of Andrew Stephenson: I thank my right hon. Friend for Gibraltar are responsible for their own contingency his question. The UK provided £94 million of aid to planning, but, as I have said, the UK Government Zimbabwe in 2018-19. None of that money is channelled regularly speak to and meet Ministers to ensure that their through the Zimbabwe Government. I reiterate the robust plans are in place. point that the UK’s ongoing support through our DFID work depends on fundamental political and economic Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): Is reform in Zimbabwe. the Minister not aware that whether it is Gibraltar, Hong Kong or Zimbabwe, people are struggling for the (Vauxhall) (Lab): Does the Minister agree rights that they thought they had and that they find that any semblance of the rule of law has now broken common cause with people in the United Kingdom down in Zimbabwe? We saw that just last week when a who are struggling to get the political rights that they peaceful protest was banned at the very last minute by thought they had in this country? Is it not about time Mnangagwa. What more are Her Majesty’s Government that we showed as an example that we believe in doing to get the Southern African Development parliamentary and political democracy in this House? Community and the African Union on board to make their views known about the appalling waythat Mnangagwa Christopher Pincher: That was quite a wide-ranging is treating the people of Zimbabwe? question. Let me put it to the hon. Gentleman in this way: this Government are standing up for the rights of Andrew Stephenson: I thank the hon. Lady for her people—the 17.5 million people of our country who question. I know she has considerable expertise as the voted to leave the European Union—and respecting chairman of the all-party group on Zimbabwe. We are those that did not. We will make sure that we leave—no very concerned about the current human rights issues in ifs, no buts—on 31 October. that country. The violations, such as those seen in January and August 2019, have no place in a democratic Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): What assurances society. We will continue to work with all international has the Minister sought from the Spanish Government partners to ensure that those responsible are held to that they will respect Gibraltar’s territorial waters both account. before we leave and after?

Leaving the EU: Gibraltar Christopher Pincher: My hon. Friend makes an important point. We reject and object robustly to all incursions 8. Robert Neill (Bromley and Chislehurst) (Con): into Gibraltarian waters. I think that since the start of What recent discussions he has had with the Government this year, there have been 499 such incursions and we of Gibraltar on the UK’s withdrawal from the EU. have made 499 objections. He can be confirmed in his [912247] belief that we will support the people of Gibraltar.

The Minister for Europe and the Americas (Christopher Mr Khalid Mahmood (, Perry Barr) (Lab): Pincher): I have spoken to the Chief Minister,Mr Picardo, The Minister, I believe, supports a no-deal Brexit. How by phone on a number of occasions in the past month will the Minister assure the people of Gibraltar that 13 Oral Answers 3 SEPTEMBER 2019 Oral Answers 14 there will be no disruption of the supply of goods, and non-payment of the EU divorce bill, instead of a including food and medicine? News about delays of global player on the world stage, he paints us as a four hours at the border, resulting in huge economic dishonest and disreputable nation—much like his Prime loss, has leaked in the Yellowhammer document. If the Minister? Minister believes that the Yellowhammer document is outdated, what is the updated solution? Dominic Raab: Let us agree on trust and the importance of being very clear with our international partners on Christopher Pincher: The hon. Gentleman is misinformed. both our reasonable ask and our commitment to leave I do not support no deal; I want a deal with the the EU at the end of October. Trust with the voters of European Union that works for Britain and for Gibraltar, this country is also important. Both Labour and the but I am prepared to leave with no deal if we cannot get Conservatives said they would respect the referendum, the deal that is good for us by 31 October. We engage and on our side we are serious about fulfilling that regularly with the Spanish Government. My right hon. promise. Friend the Foreign Secretary spoke to Foreign Minister Borrell very recently about this matter. As I said, I Patrick Grady: Nobody voted to leave with no deal, engage regularly with the Chief Minister of Gibraltar. and the very threat of no deal is leading the pound to He assures me that Gibraltar is ready. We will make sure tank to historic lows, which is nothing to be proud of. Is that Gibraltar is ready and that we continue the dialogue it not the case that if we crash out without a deal, as the with the Spanish Government to ensure that there is a Government seem to want, it will diminish the United free flow of traffic, people and goods across the border Kingdom economically, culturally and diplomatically? after we leave. Dominic Raab: I respect the hon. Gentleman’s views. Leaving the EU: Diplomacy I think he would say the same whatever the Government’s position. I would point him, for example, to the views 9. (Bexhill and Battle) (Con): What set out on the BBC, on the “Today” programme, by diplomatic steps he is taking to help ensure that the UK Mervyn King, a former Governor of the . is prepared to leave the EU on 31 October 2019. He is not known to be in hock to the Tories or Brexit, [912248] but he said very clearly that we should get on with it, that the short-term risks were manageable and that 10. Anna McMorrin (Cardiff North) (Lab): What there were also opportunities. That is the approach we recent discussions he has had with his European take. counterparts on continued diplomatic co-operation after the UK leaves the EU. [912249] Stephen Gethins (North East Fife) (SNP): I will welcome the Foreign Secretary to his place—for now, of course. 14. Patrick Grady (Glasgow North) (SNP): What Has he discovered that, as well as being particularly assessment he has made of the effect of the UK leaving reliant on the Dover-Calais crossing, we are also reliant the EU without a deal on international perceptions of on good relations with our other European partners? the UK. [912253] What impact will no deal have on our relations, and will he reassure our partners that this Government still The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth respect the rule of law? Affairs and First Secretary of State (Dominic Raab): Last week, I attended the Gymnich meeting of EU Dominic Raab: Yes, I can reassure the hon. Gentleman Foreign Ministers. I met the Foreign Ministers of France, on all counts. As well as making the reasonable offer , Ireland, the Netherlands, Spain, and that replaces the backstop, which would allow us to get Finland. We discussed Brexit but also the wide range of a deal that is acceptable to this country, we have made international foreign policy issues on which we will the point to our EU partners that we are willing to continue to co-operate beyond 31 October, from Hong co-operate on all the no-deal planning and preparation Kong to Iran. to reduce the risk on all sides. Of course, however, that will require the EU to engage to the same level. Huw Merriman: I welcome the Foreign Secretary to his place.Will he confirm whether the 90-strong negotiation Stephen Gethins: I am glad the Foreign Secretary says unit has been disbanded? If that is the case, with regard he will respect the rule of law and any legislation passed to our foreign resources and diplomats what more is in this place, but there is no mandate for a no-deal being done across the EU27 member states for us to get Brexit. He himself was among those who told us these a deal to leave the European Union? deals would be really easy to sort out, and a no-deal Brexit, which he never mentioned, as found Dominic Raab: We have actually strengthened and out, was never on the cards. So it is clear. Is he willing to increased the resources in and across capitals do this damage to our relationships with our closest to make sure we are going to the EU with a clear and partners? The Prime Minister, the Brexiteers and the reasonable ask, backed up by the commitment and Foreign Secretary have no idea what they are doing. resolve to leave at the end of October, and with the staff and personnel to navigate the nuances and explain our Dominic Raab: It is the usual froth and frenzy from message very clearly to our EU friends. the hon. Gentleman. The reality is that no deal was debated on both sides, including by me, during the Anna McMorrin: Does the Secretary of State agree referendum—and it has been sourced—and that it was that trust is critical to international diplomacy? If so, an in/out referendum. We remain committed to a deal does he agree that by threatening a catastrophic no deal with the EU, but the one thing that would undermine 15 Oral Answers 3 SEPTEMBER 2019 Oral Answers 16 our prospects of getting a deal would be passing the Bill to what the Health Secretary and Sir Simon Stevens have proposed by the right hon. Member for Leeds Central said and take into account the reassurances that medical (). It would undermine our chances at this supplies will be protected in any scenario. critical moment of the negotiations. Mr Speaker: I will allow the next question—on the Emily Thornberry (Islington South and Finsbury) grounds that extreme brevity is required. (Lab): I welcome the new Foreign Secretary to his Defence and Security Equipment International position, and indeed his seemingly entirely new team—it Exhibition is certainly position churn—and pay tribute to his predecessor, who served for 12 months with a concern and diligence that had been so sorely lacking for the 11. Ann Clwyd (Cynon Valley) (Lab): Which (a) Ministers previous two years. I hope the new Foreign Secretary and (b) officials in his Department plan to attend the will follow the right example. Defence and Security Equipment International exhibition in London in September 2019. [912250] The Foreign Secretary will be aware of the concern of people across the country with health conditions such The Minister for the Middle East and North Africa as schizophrenia and epilepsy for whom, as the (Dr Andrew Murrison): No Foreign and Commonwealth Yellowhammer leaks reveal, it will not be possible to Office Ministers are currently scheduled to attend the stockpile medicines. They will be left exposed and at exhibition. However,FCO officials will attend. The Export grave risk because of the shortages that will follow a Control Joint Unit will be on hand advise companies on no-deal Brexit. Can I ask him a simple question? Have the United Kingdom’s export licensing procedures, which, the Government asked for legal advice on how coroners as the right hon. Lady will know, are among the most would be expected to record the deaths of anyone who rigorous in the world. loses their life after 31 October as a result of the entirely preventable medicine shortages? Ann Clwyd: I wish that that were true, but it is not. I note that has been invited to the arms Dominic Raab: I thank the shadow Foreign Secretary fair once again. Will the Minister tell the House whether for her generous welcome to the Dispatch Box. On no the Government are now reviewing all current arms deal and medicines,the UK has a long-standing relationship licences to Saudi Arabia following the recent judgment with pharmaceutical companies, through the NHS, by the Court of Appeal, which instructed them to involving hundreds of vaccines and medicines, whereby determine the likelihood of the use of that equipment in we do stockpile, without any context of Brexit, but in serious violation of international humanitarian law, the ordinary course of events. Both the Health Secretary given past violations? and the head of the NHS have made it clear that the plans and arrangements are in place to make sure that Dr Murrison: I am grateful to the right hon. Lady for people can receive their medication supplies in all her question. The UK Government have sought leave to circumstances. I am sure she will not want to engage in appeal, and we have been granted it. We disagree—with irresponsible scaremongering. It is very important that respect—with the court in its determination and note this be a fact-driven risk analysis. the lower court’s determination that the process was “rigorous”, “robust” and “multi-layered”. The right Emily Thornberry: I thank the Foreign Secretary for hon. Lady will, I believe, understand that our processes his answer, but the truth is this: the whole point of the in this country are among the most robust in the world. Yellowhammer leaks is that some essential medicines—the I am proud of them, and she should be, too, because of ones about which I am asking—cannot be stockpiled, the Export Control Act 2002 and the statement made which is why there is genuine concern for these individuals. on 26 October 2000, which underpinned the licensing As a lawyer, the Secretary of State knows his case law process that we have—under, of course, a previous as well I do. He will know that if dependent individuals Government. are denied their medicine and die as a result, their cases Topical Questions may meet all the tests in the watershed cases of Jamieson, Khan and Staffordshire and justify a coroner’s finding that they died as a result of neglect. I will submit a T1. [912264] Mr Stephen Hepburn (Jarrow) (Lab): If he freedom of information request today to obtain the will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities. advice that the Government have been given to that The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth effect. Affairs and First Secretary of State (Dominic Raab): Is it not a shameful disgrace that, in 21st-century Since my appointment as Foreign Secretary, I have Britain, we are having to talk about people who are visited six countries and met 46 Foreign Ministers. In denied their medicine and about people having access to Helsinki last week, we discussed with our EU partners “adequate’” supplies of food—the Foreign Secretary’s the middle east, cyber-threats and the challenges relating own words—so that this shameless, shameful Government to Iran. In Thailand, Canada, the and can play games of brinkmanship with Brussels and Mexico, I have set out our vision for a global Britain as generate the pretext for a general election? This is no we leave the EU: strong, independent and a force for way in which to run a country. good in the world.

Dominic Raab: Let me gently say to the shadow Mr Hepburn: What actions are the Government taking, Foreign Secretary that what is shameful is to take a both unilaterally and in partnership, to stop the Brazilian potentially vulnerable group in our society and scaremonger Government wiping out their indigenous peoples, as in such an appalling way. I think that she should listen well as poisoning the world’s environment? 17 Oral Answers 3 SEPTEMBER 2019 Oral Answers 18

Dominic Raab: We recognise the concerns about the T2. [912265] Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and rain forest. I have spoken to the Brazilian Foreign Saddleworth)(Lab):Theunilateralrevocationof articles370 Minister, and the vice-president will be here soon. We and35AandtheassociatedactionsbytheIndianGovernment will look into supporting Brazil by taking measures to breach the rule of law, democracy and human rights. ensure that the rain forests, which rightly attract Given the imminent UN General Assembly, what specific international interest, are protected in a way that works actions will the Government take to ensure that all for the world—[Interruption]—but also—I say this in Security Council resolutions, especially resolution 47 and response to the shadow Foreign Secretary—does not the Simla agreement, are upheld? undermine the economy and the poorest people in Brazil. Dominic Raab: I totally share the hon. Lady’s concerns. We will be looking to ensure internationally respected human rights are respected; they have been raised in T4. [912267] (Preseli Pembrokeshire) (Con): What conditions were given by Iran ahead of the this Chamber already in relation to detention and release of the tanker Adrian Darya from Gibraltar, and mistreatment but also to communication blackouts. We how will the United Kingdom respond if and when it is will also be looking to see generally on all sides a shown Iran has breached those conditions? de-escalation of tensions and positive measures to build up confidence; that is the only way this issue will be resolved and calmed down. Dominic Raab: We were given clear assurances that the oil and the tanker would not, in breach of sanctions, T7. [912270] Huw Merriman (Bexhill and Battle) (Con): reach Syria and we expect those undertakings to be May I ask the Foreign Secretary to come back on the complied with. We want Iran to come in from the cold; answer he give me previously? Was he saying—I ask this the only way it can do that is by respecting the international as someone who wants us to get a good deal to take us rule of law, whether on freedom of navigation, the out of the EU—that we now have a bigger negotiation nuclear deal or indeed the treatment of our dual nationals. team than previously and are they spending more time than previously? Fabian Hamilton (Leeds North East) (Lab): Can the Minister of State tell me what clause in UN resolution 2216 Dominic Raab: Tobe very specific on the understandable provides for Saudi Arabia to bomb captive inmates in a question my hon. Friend asks, we have added over Houthi-run prison in Yemen or for the United Arab 100 diplomats as well as 140 locally engaged staff across Emirates to kill forces loyal to the President that their capitals as well as in Brussels, and I hope that shows the own coalition is supposed to be there to reinstall? If the seriousness with which we are approaching negotiations answer is that there is none, is it not time for him to to get a deal. bring forward a new UN resolution to replace 2216, T3. [912266] Carol Monaghan (Glasgow North West) demanding an immediate ceasefire by all parties across (SNP): The UK Government have pledged £10 million the whole of the country of Yemen? to tackle the Amazon forest fires. That is an embarrassing 14p per person in the UK to ensure they The Minister for the Middle East and North Africa have oxygen to breathe. The Prime Minister has, we (Dr Andrew Murrison): This country will always stand know, extremely deep pockets, so what representations up for the rule of law in Yemen, in Saudi Arabia and has the Secretary of State made to the Prime Minister throughout the middle east. I hope very much that the to ensure we make a realistic contribution to this global hon. Gentleman understands that this country is the issue? champion of international humanitarian law, especially in relation to Yemen, where he knows full well we are The Minister for Europe and the Americas (Christopher the pen holder. In my recent visit to the middle east, Pincher): Weare committing £120 million to international including to discuss Yemen, that came across loud and climate finance, and on top of that we are committing clear; I made it clear to my interlocutors that we will £10 million extra. This all helps to avoid and stop continue to hold them to account for activities in Yemen. deforestation; it helps the sustainable agriculture of Brazil.

T9. [912272] Mark Menzies (Fylde) (Con): With the T5. [912268] (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): Corruption that impoverishes nations is flow of migrants from Venezuela now at more than facilitated by financial devices hiding ownership that 5 million and with their misery ever-increasing, what are created in the UK and other western nations. Will steps are the Government taking to support our friends my right hon. Friend do all he can to build an in the region, particularly Colombia and Peru? international consensus to end the inappropriate use of Dominic Raab: The failures of the Maduro regime these devices? and of Hugo Chávez have led to what is probably the largest displacement of people in south American history. Dr Murrison: My hon. Friend is absolutely right and We need a peaceful transition to democracy through will know that the 2016 London anti-corruption summit free and fair presidential elections. In the meantime, the agreed new commitments on ownership transparency. UK is providing more than £14 million in aid, and He will also be aware of the leadership we have shown £10 million of that will go to countries around Venezuela on things like beneficial ownership, unexplained wealth that are seeing an increase in Venezuelans fleeing the orders, the seizure of criminals’money from bank accounts country. and new powers to tackle onshore and offshore tax evasion. The UK is absolutely at the forefront of tackling T6. [912269] Mr Virendra Sharma (Ealing, Southall) these things and my hon. Friend is right to draw attention (Lab): Thank you, Mr Speaker. What a treat to have to that. two bites of the apple! 19 Oral Answers 3 SEPTEMBER 2019 Oral Answers 20

Will the Secretary of State enlighten me about how Andrew Stephenson: I thank the hon. Lady for her the UK can maintain moral authority around the world question. I am pleased to have taken over consular and criticise leaders in Venezuela and Zimbabwe for services, which assist British nationals travelling, living their assaults on democratic institutions when this and working overseas. I appreciate her expertise as chair Government are gagging our own Parliament? of the all-party parliamentary group, and I would be delighted to meet her to discuss this further. Dominic Raab: I hope that I have reassured the hon. Gentleman, with whom I served on the Joint Committee Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con): We need five on Human Rights, that we will raise human rights more sitting days for parliamentary approval of the issues wherever they lie, whether in relation to Iran, to accession of the Republic of North Macedonia to NATO. China or to Zimbabwe. We will be unflinching in doing Will this be achieved before the next slightly premature so, even with partners with which we want to have a recess? positive relationship.

Several hon. Members rose— Dominic Raab: I thank my hon. Friend for his question, but I think that it is probably one for the Leader of the Mr Speaker: One sentence each, please. There are lots House. of Members trying to get in. Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con): Will the Foreign Laura Pidcock (North West Durham) (Lab): Natalie Secretary consider the early-day motion tabled by Jackson has not seen or had any contact from her son 25 parliamentarians today calling on our Government Dylan, who is 11, in more than a year because her to seek agreement with other Commonwealth countries ex-partner has not returned him home after a summer to offer Hong Kong citizens second citizenship and a holiday in 2018. The High Court has made Dylan a place of abode? Could this be applied for as an agenda ward of court and ordered his immediate return, but his item at the next Commonwealth Heads of Government return was denied by the Turkish courts. I have written meeting? to the Secretary of State about this. Please will he answer, and meet me urgently so that we can deliver Dominic Raab: As I have made clear to the House, we Dylan back to his mother? want to see the one country, two systems model respected. Under those arrangements, reflecting the joint declaration, Christopher Pincher: Given the urgency of this matter, we have committed to the British national (overseas) I will of course meet the hon. Lady. status and I think it is important, for now, to stick with that. Sir (East Devon) (Con): As the Foreign T8. [912271] Tommy Sheppard ( East) (SNP): and Commonwealth Office reconfigures its global The Foreign Secretary has previously campaigned against representation by beefing up embassies and opening the . Now, in his new position, other embassies post-Brexit, will my right hon. Friend will he confirm that the protection and defence of human undertake to conduct an audit into other Departments rights are at the centre of Government policy both at that are represented abroad to ensure that they are all home and abroad and specifically that protection for brought under the ambassador or high commissioner in citizens of this country will not worsen in relation to that country? those of other European countries? Dominic Raab: I pay tribute to my right hon. Friend’s Dominic Raab: Yes. expertise in this area. He is absolutely right to stress that when we speak internationally, we do so with one voice. Stephen Kerr (Stirling) (Con): In line with the recommendations in the Bishop of Truro’s report, are the Government prepared and ready to impose sanctions Liz Twist (Blaydon) (Lab): With climate change becoming on the perpetrators of freedom of religion or belief increasingly evident and important, what progress has abuse? been made in tackling climate change through international co-operation? The Minister for Africa (Andrew Stephenson): I thank my hon. Friend for consistently raising this topic. As he Dominic Raab: I thank the hon. Lady for her question. will know, the Government have accepted all the We are absolutely clear that a global Britain would recommendations in the report and work is under way pursue international issues such as climate change. We totakethemforward.Wehaveestablishedanimplementation are seeking to host COP 26 in 2020, which shows the team and allocated £200,000 this year to look at concrete leadership that we intend to take in this area. actions that the UK can take.

T10. [912273] Hannah Bardell (Livingston) (SNP): My Mr Speaker: For one sentence—in hope, not expectation all-party parliamentary group on deaths abroad and —I call Alistair Burt. consular services has taken evidence from more than 60 families, including the families of Kirsty Maxwell Alistair Burt (North East Bedfordshire) (Con): Following and Julie Pearson in my own constituency. They are Iranian Foreign Minister Zarif’s visit to the G7 summit, very clear that the system is failing them and other will my right hon. Friend bring me up to date on what families. I am going to produce a report shortly, but the United Kingdom is currently doing to try to ease will the Secretary of State meet me to discuss this as tensions with Iran, bearing in mind that that may have soon as possible? provided an opportunity? 21 Oral Answers 3 SEPTEMBER 2019 Oral Answers 22

Dominic Raab: I pay tribute to my right hon. Friend internationally recognised rights for consular nationals, and his expertise in this area. Our approach to Iran is the nuclear deal and freedom of navigation in the strait simple: we want it to de-escalate tensions and to come of Hormuz. in from the cold. The Iranians can do that by respecting 23 3 SEPTEMBER 2019 24

NEW MEMBER G7 Summit The following Member took and subscribed the Oath required by law: 3.33 pm Jane Dodds, for Brecon and Radnorshire. The Prime Minister (Boris Johnson): Before I begin my statement, I am sure that the whole House will join me in remembering that this country entered the second world war 80 years ago today. It is of course true that the horror of that conflict surpasses all modern controversies. It is also true that this country still stands— then as now—for democracy, for the rule of law, and for the fight against racial and religious hatred, and I know that this whole House is united in defending those values around the world. With permission, Mr Speaker, I will make a statement about the G7 summit in Biarritz. As I speak, vast tracts of the Amazon rain forest are on fire, free trade is in retreat, 130 million girls worldwide are not in education and our oceans are being foully polluted, so it has never been more important for a global Britain to use our voice as an agent for change and progress. It is only by exerting our influence at a global level and only by sticking up for our values and beliefs that we can create the international context for Britain to prosper and to ensure that this is the greatest place on earth to live, work, start a family, open a business, trade and invest. So at the G7, I made the case for free trade as an engine of prosperity and progress that has lifted billions out of poverty, yet the reality is that trade, as a share of the world economy, has been stagnant for the last decade. In the leaders’ declaration, the G7 unanimously endorsed open and fair world trade and was determined to reform the World Trade Organisation and to reach agreement next year to simplify regulatory barriers. Britain is on the verge of taking back control of our trade policy and restoring our independent seat in the WTO for the first time in 46 years. Our exports to the United States—[Interruption.] I wish my hon. Friend the Member for Bracknell (Dr Lee) all the best. [Interruption.]

Mr Speaker: Order. I ask the House to have some regard to how our proceedings are viewed by people outside the Chamber. I will always facilitate the expression of opinion by this House. [Interruption.] Order.Meanwhile, the Prime Minister is making a statement. That statement should be heard, and he will be heard, as will every other Member. End of subject.

The Prime Minister: Britain is on the verge of taking back control of our trade policy, as I said. [Interruption.] On the verge. We could achieve even more in our trade with the United States by using the powers we will regain to do a comprehensive free trade deal—a deal in which both President Trump and I have agreed that the NHS is not on the table. Unlike some in the House, I consider the United States to be a natural ally and a force for good in the world, and I recoil from the visceral, juvenile anti-Americanism that would do such profound damage to this country’s interest. I know the whole House will share my concern about the gravity of the situation in Hong Kong. As a nation with a deep belief in freedom of expression and assembly, we stand firm in upholding Hong Kong’s way of life, guaranteed by one country, two systems. I welcome the unwavering support of my G7 counterparts on this vital matter. 25 G7 Summit 3 SEPTEMBER 2019 G7 Summit 26

The UK is at the forefront of a new campaign to end sides of the House. We have also been clear that we will the tragic loss of species around the world. We cannot need changes to the political declaration, to clarify that bequeath a planet where the Sumatran tiger and the our future relationship with the EU will be based on a African elephant, and entire ecosystems like the great free trade agreement and giving us full control over our barrier reef, live in the shadow of destruction, so I am regulations, our trade, and our foreign and defence delighted that the G7 accepted UK proposals for more policy. This clarity has brought benefits; far from ambitious targets to halt and reverse the loss of biodiversity. jeopardising negotiations, it is making them more straight- Britain is responsible for 2.6 million square miles of forward. ocean, the fifth largest marine estate in the world. Our In the last few weeks, I believe that the chances of a blue belt programme will ensure that marine protected deal have risen. This week, we are intensifying the pace areas encompass 1.5 million square miles and, at the of meetings in Brussels. Our European friends can see G7, I announced a further £7 million for this vital that we want an agreement and they are beginning to effort. reflect that reality in their response. President Macron I also announced another £10 million to protect the said—[Interruption.] Mr Speaker, Opposition Members rain forest in Brazil, where 41,000 fires have raged so far don’t want to hear the words of our counterparts across this year—more than twice as many as in the same period the channel. They don’t want to hear about any progress in 2018. Britain is bidding to host the UN’s 26th climate that we might be making. [Interruption.] They don’t. change conference next year. If we succeed, we shall [Interruption.] focus on solutions that harness the power of nature, including reforestation. There is one measure that would Mr Speaker: Order. I want to hear everything said— address all those issues. [Interruption.] If Opposition Members think that is a waste of money, it tells us all Hon. Members: He’s mumbling! we need to know about the modern Labour party. One measure that will address all those issues is to Mr Speaker: I have never had any difficulty hearing ensure that every girl in the world receives the education the Prime Minister, but if it is necessary for him to that is her right. That would not only curb infant speak up, I am certain that he will overcome his natural mortality, eradicate illiteracy and reduce population shyness in order to do so. pressures but would strike a blow for morality and justice. In Biarritz, the G7 therefore endorsed the UK’s The Prime Minister: Mr Speaker, I think they are campaign for 12 years of quality education for every wilfully closing their ears to the reality that our friends girl in the world, and I announced £90 million of new and partners are increasingly seeing the possibilities of funding so that 600,000 children in countries torn by an agreement. Again, I quote President Macron of France, conflict, where girls are twice as likely as boys to be out who said: of the classroom, get the chance to go to school. “If there are things which, as part of what was negotiated by Michel Barnier, can be adapted and are in keeping with the two As well as my G7 colleagues, I was delighted to meet … other leaders, including President Ramaphosa of South objectives I’ve mentioned, stability in Ireland”— Africa, Prime Minister Modi of India and Prime Minister which we all support— Morrison of Australia, who, heroically, masked his “and the integrity of the single market—we should identify them emotions in the face of the historic innings of Ben in the coming months.” Stokes.In every conversation, I was struck by the enthusiasm Is that the negative spirit of those on the Opposition of my colleagues to strengthen their relations with this Benches? No, it is not. And speaking in Berlin of country, whether on trade, security and defence, or possible alternatives to the backstop, Chancellor Merkel science and technology. I was also able to use the G7 to of Germany said: follow up my conversations in Berlin and Paris with “Once we see and say this could be a possible outcome, this Chancellor Merkel and President Macron on Brexit, as could be a possible arrangement, this backstop as a sort of well as with Prime Minister Conte, Prime Minister placeholder is no longer necessary.” Sánchez and President Tusk. I have since spoken to That is a positive spirit, which we are not, I am afraid, Commission President Juncker and many other leaders. hearing echoed on the other side of the House today. I I was able to make it clear to them all that everyone in believe there are indeed—[Interruption.] Opposition this Government wants a deal. [Interruption.] We do. Members are fleeing already.There are indeed solutions— We do. But it is a reality that the House of Commons they don’t want to hear about solutions. They don’t has rejected the current withdrawal agreement three want to hear about any of them. There are practical times, and it simply cannot be resurrected. [Interruption.] arrangements that we can find which avoid anyone And that is why I wrote to President Tusk—[Interruption.] putting infrastructure on the Irish border—I say that to the departing back of the right hon. Member for Exeter Mr Speaker: Order. Mr Sheerman, I look to you as a (Mr Bradshaw), and he knows it well. These have been senior and distinguished elder statesman in the House well worked out and involve measures such as trusted to set an example of good behaviour, analogous to the trader schemes, transit provisions, frontier zones, reduced Buddha-like calm of the Father of the House, which is bureaucracy for small and local traders, and many exhibited at all times. others. In particular, we recognise—[Interruption.] I advise The Prime Minister: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Opposition Members to pay attention to what is being That is why I wrote to President Tusk on 19 August to said. We recognise that for reasons of geography and set out our arguments why any future agreement must economics, agri-food is increasingly managed on a common include the abolition of the anti-democratic backstop— basis across the island of Ireland. We are ready to find a [Interruption]—which, by the way, is opposed on all way forward that recognises this reality, provided that it 27 G7 Summit 3 SEPTEMBER 2019 G7 Summit 28

[The Prime Minister] Enough is enough. The country wants this done and it wants the referendum respected. We are negotiating a clearly enjoys the consent of all parties and institutions deal, and though I am confident of getting a deal, we with an interest. We will discuss that with the EU shortly, will leave by 31 October in all circumstances. There will and I will discuss it with the Taoiseach, Leo Varadkar, be no further pointless delay. This House has never when I see him in Dublin on Monday. before voted to force the Prime Minister to surrender It is simply wrong to say that we are not making such a crucial decision to the discretion of our friends progress. There is a lot to do in the coming days, and neighbours overseas. What this Bill would mean is but things are moving. A major reason for that is that that, unless we agreed to the terms of our friends and everyone can see that this Government are utterly partners, they would be able to keep us in the EU for as determined to leave the EU on 31 October, come what long as they want and on their terms. I therefore urge may, without a deal if necessary. That is why over the this House to reject the Bill tonight, so that we can get summer my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the the right deal for our country, deliver Brexit and take Duchy of Lancaster has been leading the Government’s the whole country forward. I commend this statement efforts, seven days a week, to accelerate our national to the House. preparations for that possibility.He will make a statement on that subject shortly.My right hon. Friend the Chancellor Mr Speaker: Order. For the avoidance of doubt, has made all the necessary funds available. We have there is no vote on a Bill tonight. There is a vote on a already reached agreements with our partners to roll motion, and if that motion is successful there will be a over trade deals worth around £89 billion of exports Bill tomorrow. [Interruption.] Order. I say this simply and imports. We have secured air services agreements because the intelligibility of our proceedings to those around the world. We have increased the capacity of observing them is important, and I am sure that everybody our Border Force, strengthened the resilience of our ports, from all parts of the House will recognise that fundamental bolstered our freight capacity and worked in meticulous truth. detail to ensure the uninterrupted supply of critical goods, including medicines. We will be ready. 3.50 pm I returned from the G7 with real in the (Islington North) (Lab): I thank the Brexit discussions. I want to return from next month’s Prime Minister for an advance copy of his statement. I European Council in a similar way, with a deal that this join with him in recognising the great human suffering House can debate, scrutinise and endorse in time for of world war two and the great human bravery that our departure on 31 October. But there is one step that took place during that awful conflict that began 80 years would jeopardise all the progress that we have made in ago, which was essential in defeating the disgusting the G7 and around the capitals of Europe, and that is if ideology of the Nazis and of fascism at that time. this House were to decide that it was simply impossible The Prime Minister met EU leaders over the summer for us to leave without a deal and to make that step illegal. and EU Council President Tusk at the G7 summit. [Interruption.] That is what they want—to undermine After those meetings, the Prime Minister struck an our negotiations; to force us to beg for yet another optimistic note, saying that the chances of a deal were, pointless delay. If that happens, all the progress we have in his words, “improving”. His optimism was not shared been making will have been for nothing. by those who had been at the same meetings. The Prime Yesterday, a Bill was published—a Bill that the Leader Minister may claim that progress is being made, but EU of the Opposition has spent all summer working on. It leaders report that the Government have so far failed to is not a Bill in any normal sense of the word: it is present any new proposals. Can the Prime Minister without precedent in our history. It is a Bill that, if clear this up? Can he tell us whether the UK has put passed, would force me to go to Brussels and beg for an forward any new proposal in relation to the backstop? extension. It would force me to accept the terms offered. If it has, will he publish them so that these proposals It would destroy any chance of negotiation for a new can be scrutinised by Parliament and by the public? deal. It would destroy it. Indeed, it would enable our It is becoming increasingly clear that this reckless friends in Brussels to dictate the terms of the negotiation. Government have only one plan: to crash out of the That is what it would do. There is only one way to EU without a deal. The reality is exposed today in the describe the Bill: it is Jeremy Corbyn’s surrender Bill. in-house journal of the Conservative party—otherwise That is what it is. It means running up the white known as —which reports that the flag—the Bill is shameful. I want to make it clear to Prime Minister’s chief of staff has called the negotiations everybody in this House: there are no circumstances in “a sham”, that the strategy is to “run down the clock” which I will ever accept anything like it. I will never and that the proposal to alter the backstop is “a complete surrender the control of our negotiations in the way fantasy”—and those are the words of the Attorney that the Leader of the Opposition is demanding. General. [Interruption.] No deal will mean food shortages, reduced medical supplies and chaos at our ports. It is not me saying that; Mr Speaker: Order. People must not keep ranting it is the Government’s own leaked analysis that says from a sedentary position. However long it takes, the that, and it warns of chaos across the board. Today, we statement will be heard and the response to it will be had expected the publication of the Government’s no- heard. That is the reality and nothing can gainsay it. deal preparations. The Government are hiding from scrutiny and hiding from the people and they are trying The Prime Minister: We promised the people that we to hide us from their true intentions. This is not just a would get Brexit done. We promised to respect the Government in chaos, but a Government of cowardice. result of the referendum, and we must do so now. Thankfully, some in are putting those vital 29 G7 Summit 3 SEPTEMBER 2019 G7 Summit 30 documents into the public domain, but we should not to declare a climate emergency, and I was proud to have to rely on sporadic leaks. Will the Prime Minister move that motion. We must continue to show global set out today when these documents will be published leadership on the issue. so that the people and Parliament can scrutinise and On Iran, it is notable that the Prime Minister fails to debate them? Many on the Government Benches would condemn President Trump’s unilateral decision to tear relish a no-deal outcome. They see it as an opportunity up the internationally agreed Iran nuclear deal, creating to open up Britain to a one-sided trade deal that puts us a crisis that now risks a slide into even deeper conflict. at the mercy of and United States Does the Prime Minister plan to work with European corporations and that will increase the wealth of a few partners to restore the Iran nuclear deal and de-escalate at the expense of the many. tensions in the Gulf? We are clear that in government When it comes to the crunch, too many on the Labour would work tirelessly through the UN for a Government Benches who once opposed a no-deal outcome negotiated reinstatement of the nuclear deal and to are now putting their own careers before the good of defuse the threat of war in the Gulf. Effective diplomacy, the people of this country. Just look at all those Tory not threats and bluster, must prevail. Will he call on the leadership candidates who said that it would be wrong Iranian authorities to end the unjust detention of Nazanin to suspend Parliament in order to make no deal more Zaghari-Ratcliffe, and what actions has he taken so far likely, but who sit passively as their principles of just a to ensure her release from the terrible situation that she few short weeks ago are cast aside—I do not know what has been plunged into? they were doing over their summer holidays, but something We are all concerned about the situation in Hong has changed. And it gets worse, because not only have Kong. No Government anywhere should get to shut they all stood by while the Prime Minister launches his down rights and freedoms, or to pick and choose which latest attack on democracy, but some have repeatedly laws they adhere to. Will the Prime Minister urge the refused to rule out the possibility of the Government Chinese Government to stick to the joint declaration ignoring any law passed by Parliament that attempts to of 1984 and stand up for the rights of citizens in Hong stop a no-deal Brexit. Will the Prime Minister therefore Kong? take this opportunity, when he responds in a moment, Later today, this House has a last chance to stop this to assure the country that his Government will abide by Government riding roughshod over constitutional and any legislation passed by Parliament this week? democratic rights in this country, so that a cabal in The attack on our democracy in order to force through Downing Street cannot crash us out without a deal, a disastrous no-deal Brexit is unprecedented, anti- without any democratic mandate and against the majority democratic and unconstitutional. Labour will do all we of public opinion. The Prime Minister is not winning can to protect our industry, protect our democracy and friends in Europe; he is losing friends at home. His is a protect our people against this dangerous and reckless Government with no mandate, no morals and—as of Government. today—no majority. I condemn the rhetoric that the Prime Minister used The Prime Minister: The right hon. Gentleman knows when he talked about a “surrender Bill”. I really hope full well that this country has engaged actively with our that he will reflect on his use of language. We are not European friends and partners to make sense of the surrendering because we are at war with Europe; they Iran nuclear deal and to ensure that that deal continues. are surely our partners. If anything, it is a no-deal exit He will know that my right hon. Friend the Foreign that would mean surrendering our industry, our jobs, Secretary continues to work actively not only to secure and our standards and protections in a trade deal with the release of Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe, but on all the Donald Trump and the United States. very sad consular cases that we are currently dealing with in Iran. I pay tribute to the Foreign Secretary and The UK should be using its position in the G7 to the work of all his officials. promote policies to tackle the climate emergency. The climate emergency is real, but instead of standing up I am glad for what the right hon. Gentleman said to President Trump, it was in fact agreed this time, to about the importance of preserving democracy in Hong save his blushes, that there would be no joint communiqué Kong, and he will observe the strength of the G7 on this at the G7. That is not leadership; that is fiddling statement on that matter. But quite frankly, when it while the Amazon burns. The situation across the Amazon comes to the Bill that he is assisting to bring forward should be a wake-up call to the Prime Minister, who tomorrow, with the procedure that is coming forward once described global warming as a “primitive tonight, let us be in no doubt that this man is a former fear…without foundation”. As we watch fires rage, and Bennite. In fact, I believe that he is still a Bennite. He not only across the Amazon but in Angola and the voted against every single piece of EU legislation. He Democratic Republic of the Congo, does he stand by voted against Maastricht. He voted against Lisbon. those sentiments? Time and time and time again, he has said that we must uphold the result of the EU referendum. Time and time While funds to protect and restore the Amazon rain again, he has said that he is on the side of democracy forest are welcome, the Prime Minister knows that this and vindicating the will of the people. And what do we is merely a drop in the ocean, so will more money be see now? He has been converted—with his hordes of pledged for the Amazon, and are additional funds Momentum activists trying to take over the streets—into being made available to tackle fires in sub-Saharan the agent of those who would subvert democracy and Africa? Will he be introducing measures to stop UK overturn the will of the people. That is what he wants to companies aiding, abetting and profiting from the do. He wants to entrust the decision about how long destruction of the Amazon rain forest, and indeed rain this country remains in the European Union to our forests in west Africa? On 1 May, the UK Parliament friends and partners in Brussels, and not to this House. became the first state Parliament anywhere in the world That is not democracy. 31 G7 Summit 3 SEPTEMBER 2019 G7 Summit 32

[The Prime Minister] Prime Minister. We hear use of the words “collaborators” and “surrender”; the Prime Minister really should have I am afraid that the right hon. Gentleman, inadvertently some dignity and show some respect for the office he or not, has become the agent of further delay, further —temporarily—holds. confusion and further uncertainty for business in this Of course, one of the most remarkable things that country and abroad. That is what he is prescribing. took place during the statement was to see the hon. That is what he stands for. That is the result of his Member for Bracknell (Dr Lee) cross the Floor. Prime policy. I urge everybody on all sides of the House not to Minister: you have lost your majority. support his approach. Let us go forward, and not back with the right hon. Gentleman. Over the weekend, we saw commemorations across the world to mark the 80th anniversary of the second Mr (Rushcliffe) (Con): It seems to me world war, when brave citizens came together and stood that the Prime Minister’s extraordinary knockabout together against tyranny. My thoughts and those of my performance today merely confirms his obvious strategy, party are with those who suffered, the veterans and which is to set conditions that make no deal inevitable, their families. Weshould also recognise that the European to make sure that as much blame as possible is attached Union is the legacy of two world wars that had ripped to the EU and to this House for that consequence, Europe apart. The European Union has been an important and then—as quickly as he can—to fight a flag-waving vehicle for peace and stability in Europe. general election before the consequences of no deal Turning to the G7 summit, I wish to express my become too obvious to the public. Perhaps my right shared concern at the unrest in Hong Kong. I also hon. Friend would let me know whether that clear associate myself with the actions on climate change and explanation of his policy is one that he entirely accepts. on protecting the Amazon rain forest. But I take issue Does he also accept that if he gets his way and gets no with President Trump’s comments in relation to . deal, we will then have to begin years of negotiations It is not acceptable to condone Russia’s military and with the Europeans and the rest of the world about cyber aggression around the world. Furthermore, while getting new trade, security and other arrangements in the summit declared its support for progress in Ukraine, force? Does he seriously think that this approach will the President of the United States failed to challenge obtain from any other country in the world a free trade Russia’sviolation of international lawin Ukraine—another arrangement that is half as good as the Common Market utterly disgraceful lack of leadership from the President that Conservative Governments have helped to put of the United States. together over the years? Following the summit, the Prime Minister displayed his own lack of leadership by moving to prorogue Parliament The Prime Minister: As my right hon. and learned and strip power away from elected representatives—closing Friend knows, I am a keen fan and a lifelong fan of down Parliament by sending three Privy Counsellors to — [Interruption.] instruct the Queen to sanction the closure of Parliament. Three Privy Counsellors acting on the instructions of Mr Speaker: Order. I want to hear what the Prime the Prime Minister to shut down Parliament: where is Minister has to say in response to the question, and that the democracy in that? While he can dance around and response must be heard. profess to speak for the people, we all know the truth—he is in fact doing the opposite. By proroguing Parliament, The Prime Minister: Thank you, Mr Speaker. As the the Prime Minister is robbing the people of power; Father of the House knows, I am a long-standing robbing them of a say over their future. admirer of his. Indeed, I was the only member of the 2001 intake to vote for my right hon. and learned In true Trumpian , the Prime Minister is acting Friend as leader of the Conservative party. [Interruption.] more like a tinpot dictator than a democrat. He talks of I was—a fact that I do not think he much thanked me the will of the people—but what about the will of the for at the time. I have long been a fan of his, and indeed people of Scotland? Prime Minister, the Scottish people in many ways we are ad idem in our views. I agree with did not vote for Brexit. The people of Scotland did not him—I do not want an election. We do not want an vote for a no-deal Brexit. They did not vote for the Tory election. I do not think the Leader of the Opposition party and they certainly did not vote for this Prime wants an election, by the way, as far as I can make it Minister. The people of Scotland voted to remain in out. We do not want an election; we want to get the deal theEuropeanUnion.TheScottishpeoplevotedoverwhelmingly done, and the best way to get a deal is to support the against the Tory party and this Government. The people Government in the Lobby tonight. of Scotland made their choice, and they chose that the SNP should be their voice. So I ask the Prime Minister: Ian Blackford (Ross, Skye and Lochaber) (SNP): I are you a democrat, or not; do you respect the will of the thank the Prime Minister for advance sight of his Scottish people, or not? Will you, Prime Minister, if you statement. believe yourself not to be the latter, then give the people back their say: allow Parliament to have its say; respect My goodness—this is the second time the Prime the will of Parliament in stopping a no-deal Brexit—a Minister has been at the Dispatch Box, and this must be no-deal Brexit that would be devastating for jobs and the shortest-lived honeymoon in parliamentary history; communities? you simply have to look around his Benches. He may say that he does not want an election, and his colleagues certainly do not want one, but I will let him into a The Prime Minister: The right hon. Gentleman makes secret: we do, because we want the people of Scotland a serious point about the US’s attitude towards Russia. to be able to have their say on this shambolic Government. May I gently remind him that, when it came to the The Leader of the House talks about the strategy of the Skripal poisonings in Salisbury,the United States expelled 33 G7 Summit 3 SEPTEMBER 2019 G7 Summit 34

60 diplomats in support of the UK, in solidarity with The Prime Minister: Actually, as I told my right the UK and to show their revulsion at Russian behaviour? hon. Friend this morning, Chancellor Merkel was As for whether or not it is right to have a Queen’s making an elementary point, which is that we could Speech, the Opposition have been calling for a Queen’s easily do a deal within 30 days, and we certainly shall. Speech just about every week—finally they get one, and What she also said is that there is no point—[Interruption.] they protest. What my friends across the EU have said is that there On the EU, it remains the policy of the Scottish is no point in having a negotiation or beginning nationalist party once we have come out of the European formal talks as long as there is a risk that Parliament Union on 31 October—it is their avowed policy; they will make that negotiation impossible by taking away are inevitably committed to this by logic—to go back the ability of this country to negotiate. So every time we into the EU. That is what they say they want to do if set out ideas, the first thing they ask is what Parliament they were to achieve independence: to submit to the will do. whole panoply of EU law, to scrap the pound in favour So I urge my friends tonight, I urge colleagues tonight, of some unknown currency hitherto unbaptised—the to give us the leeway to get the deal that we need. It Salmond, the Sturgeon or whatever it happens to be—and, is very, very clear: the outlines of the deal that can above all, to hand back control of Scotland’s fisheries be done are very clear. If Members had been listening to the EU, just as they have been reclaimed by this earlier, they would have heard in my statement the country. What an extraordinary policy! rough shape of what that deal can be, both in getting the alternative arrangements and in solving the problems (Wokingham) (Con): Will the Prime of the . I am afraid that, by their actions—I Minister confirm that, from 1 November, it will be the must regretfully say this to the House—they are making UK Government and authorities in control of our that deal less likely. We are working flat out to secure it, ports such as Dover? Will he confirm that it will be the but the measures, if passed tonight, would make our Government’s policy to ensure the smooth transit of prospects of success much less likely. food, pharmaceuticals and other goods into our country, as today, so that there will not be shortages? Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab): It is not just Chancellor Merkel who has confirmed that no substantive The Prime Minister: I am grateful to my right hon. proposals have been put forward. Last weekend, the Friend. I can confirm that that is exactly what the Irish said that Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster and others have “nothing credible has come from the British government” been preparing for months and that those measures are on alternatives to the backstop. It is also reported that now well in train. the Attorney General told the Prime Minister at the beginning of August that, if he insisted on the removal Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD): The Prime of the backstop, it would inevitably result in no deal. Is Minister has lost his majority, with my hon. Friend the that true? If it is true, can the Prime Minister try to Member for Bracknell (Dr Lee) joining the Liberal persuade the House why it is credible to argue that Democrats. Doctors like him tell me that they want to progress is being made in the negotiations, because a stop Brexit because it will plunge our NHS into deep growing number of Members have come to the conclusion crisis, haemorrhaging vital staff and threatening access that what he really wants is a no-deal Brexit, and that is to life-saving medicines. When will the Prime Minister why many of us will try, over the next two days, to stop playing with people’s lives and stop Brexit? prevent that from happening—in the national interest.

The Prime Minister: I am glad that the hon. Lady has The Prime Minister: The sad truth is that there are given me occasion to remind the House that there are many Members in this House, I am afraid including the now in fact 700 more doctors in the NHS since the vote right hon. Gentleman, who simply want to block Brexit. to leave the EU. Just in the last six weeks, we have been That is the truth. That is the reality, and they are using able to announce another £1.8 billion going to 20 new the discussion of a so-called no-deal Brexit to conceal hospital upgrades around the country, in addition to their real intentions. By their measures tonight and the £34 billion extra that the Conservative Government tomorrow, they would be fatally undermining this are putting into the NHS. I am grateful to her for allowing Government’s ability to negotiate a deal. That is the me to point that out. reality. We can get a deal. We can remove the backstop. The Mr (Runnymede and Weybridge) right hon. Gentleman knows very well what this country (Con): My right hon. Friend has assured me that he is needs to do, because it is agreed on all sides of the very keen to get a deal with the European Union, but House. The problem with the withdrawal agreement is last Friday Chancellor Merkel of Germany observed not just the political declaration; it is the backstop. That somewhat acerbically that nine days into the 30 days makes agreement impossible on both sides of the House. that the Prime Minister had requested during his visit to But as long as this House is proposing motions such as Berlin, she had not yet seen any proposals from the the ones tonight and tomorrow, I am afraid we have no United Kingdom. Could the Prime Minister now make chance of getting progress from our EU friends. a commitment to publish this afternoon the UK’sproposals, so that those of us who are considering what to do later Mrs Anne Main (St Albans) (Con): What discussions today can have had the benefit of seeing them? Will he has my right hon. Friend had about the green climate further commit to transmitting those proposals without change fund and what progress has been made? Will he delay to the European Union? give us an update? 35 G7 Summit 3 SEPTEMBER 2019 G7 Summit 36

The Prime Minister: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. Ms (Wallasey) (Lab): I am sure completely We are indeed, as I said at the G7—if my memory inadvertently the Prime Minister failed to answer a serves me correctly, we are making a contribution of question that my right hon. Friend the Leader of the another £1.4 billion to the green climate fund and it is a Opposition put to him earlier: if a Bill passes that makes high priority of this Government. it illegal to leave without a deal, will he and his Government abide by the rule of law? ( North) (DUP): I welcome what the Prime Minister has said about the backstop because The Prime Minister: We will of course uphold the he knows, as the entire House knows, that that is one of constitution and obey the law. the fundamental reasons why the withdrawal agreement could not get through this House. Not only is it anti- Mr (Huntingdon) (Con): Given democratic in the sense that laws would be made for the the huge amount of political repression going on in economy of Northern Ireland and nobody in Belfast or Russia at the moment, does my right hon. Friend agree London would have any say at all in the making of with President Trump that now is the right time to bring them, or even ask questions about them, but it is Russia back into the G7? contrary to the principles that people say they believe in, in the Belfast agreement and the St Andrews agreement, The Prime Minister: No, and I made that point very which requires the consent of both communities, and clearly at Biarritz. no member of any Unionist party in Northern Ireland supports the backstop. Joanna Cherry (Edinburgh South West) (SNP): It is I also welcome the Prime Minister’s commitment to a good to hear the Prime Minister say that he will uphold deal, because we are committed to getting a deal—a the constitution and the rule of law, because of course it good deal for Northern Ireland and the United Kingdom. is essential that the United Kingdom upholds the rule When he meets the Irish Prime Minister on Monday, of law for effective working with the G7 in future. Will which I welcome, can he convey to the Prime Minister, he give the House his word that he and his Government as we have tried to convey to him, that it would be will respect legislation passed by this House and decisions entirely sensible and reasonable for him to sit down made by the two legal jurisdictions in this Union—the with us, and other representatives of Unionists in Northern jurisdiction in Scotland and the jurisdiction in England? Ireland, for direct discussions, which would be very helpful in the current atmosphere, but which the Irish The Prime Minister: I refer the hon. and learned Lady Government have consistently—amazingly—refused to to the answer that I gave just a moment ago. do, while at the same time preaching to others about the need for conciliation and movement and progress? So I Mr (Maldon) (Con): Will my right appeal to the Prime Minister, on behalf of everyone in hon. Friend confirm his determination to keep up the Northern Ireland, to try to get some momentum into pressure on Russia, which continues to illegally occupy the discussions between the Irish Republic and Unionists Crimea, and whose involvement in the occupied territories in Northern Ireland on this vital issue. in east Ukraine led to further deaths this weekend? I strongly welcome his statement at the Dispatch Box The Prime Minister: I am grateful to the right hon. that he agrees that it is not appropriate for Russia to Gentleman for his support. He perfectly understands rejoin the G7. Will he continue to give every support to the issues, and knows that he and I are at one in seeking the newly elected President Zelensky and the members to get rid of the backstop. I believe that we can get rid of of the Ukrainian Parliament? the backstop, and we can—[HON.MEMBERS: “How?”] You see—they do not want to. They do not want to do The Prime Minister: I know the great interest that my it. We can make progress, but not if we take away the right hon. Friend has taken in Ukraine and the fortunes possibility of no deal, which is what the Leader of the of that wonderful country. I assure him that President Opposition is proposing to do, and not if we give Zelensky rang me before the G7 particularly to insist on the power infinitely to extend UK membership of the his continued concerns about the Russian activities. I EU to Brussels, which is what his Bill would do. am sure that those concerns are shared across the Sir Patrick McLoughlin (Derbyshire Dales) (Con): House. Will the Prime Minister reflect on the fact that when the House of Commons debated the European Union (Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford) Referendum Act 2015, it was passed by a majority of (Lab): In the Prime Minister’s answer to the former six to one and that, when the House debated the European Chancellor of the Exchequer, he referred only to the Union (Notification of Withdrawal) Act 2017, it was “rough shape” of an alternative deal. Does he have any passed four to one by this House? What does he think a detailed proposals, and can he confirm that he has not further three or six-month delay would achieve, other sent any detailed proposals to the EU? than betraying those people and those votes that we have already had? The Prime Minister: We have been in extensive talks. As the right hon. Lady will appreciate, it does not make The Prime Minister: I passionately agree with what sense to negotiate in public, but it has been clear from my right hon. Friend has just said. I ask all those what I have said already that the backstop is unacceptable thinking tonight and tomorrow of voting to extend and so is the political declaration as currently written. again, beyond 31 October, exactly what they are seeking We have detailed proposals of how to address both to do in that interval and what the purpose of that issues and we are making progress. I say respectfully to extension would be. Believe me: the people of this friends on both sides of the House that now is the time country want to get on with it and want to come out. to allow UK negotiators to get on with their job. 37 G7 Summit 3 SEPTEMBER 2019 G7 Summit 38

Sir Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con): In the Prime link the rationale for talks with the EU article 50 Minister’s discussions with the German Chancellor and taskforce to “domestic political handling reasons”? Yes the French President, was there discussion on the need or no? for compromise? After all, the issue of the backstop is resolvable with compromise on all sides and there are The Prime Minister: I do not comment on leaks. Even many people in this House—moderate Brexiteers and if I did, I have got no idea, quite frankly. I think it is remainers—who want to compromise. When it comes highly unlikely. to a solution, if the EU will not change the deal and if this House will not pass the present deal, will the Prime Mr (South West Hertfordshire) (Con): Minister reflect on the Vienna convention and the The Prime Minister will be aware that many of us are conditional unilateral declaration, which would allow concerned that we are currently on course to leave the us to unilaterally state our determination to exit from European Union without a deal on 31 October and that the backstop? we will not have time to negotiate and legislate for a new deal. Those concerns were not allayed by reports in The The Prime Minister: I am grateful to my right hon. Daily Telegraph this morning that suggested that it was Friend, who has pursued this line of thinking for many stated in a strategy meeting on 29 July that the Government months. I must say that I think there is a better and were going to run down the clock. Nor are our concerns more elegant way of doing this. We can excise the allayed by the suggestion that the Attorney General, on offending bits of the treaty. We can make a great deal of 1 August, said that removing the backstop altogether progress. We can have a new treaty. It will be a vast would mean that we would not be able to reach a deal. improvement. I think that Opposition Members should Are those reports accurate? look forward to that and should be encouraging and supportive of this Government’s efforts in getting us The Prime Minister: I do not comment on leaks— out of the EU in a way that they voted for time and time [Interruption.] Even in pages as hallowed as the ones and time again. described. What I can tell my right hon. Friend—he asked me exactly the same question this morning—is Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC): The that we are working for a deal, and I believe that we will Prime Minister insists the UK will be ready for no deal, get a deal. It should be a deal that I think everybody in while at the same time duplicitously using threat to this House would want to support and that, above all, force the European Union to cave in to his non-existent their constituents would want to support. They want alternative arrangements. Will he admit that a no-deal and we want this business to be over and for us to leave scenario would be catastrophic, or will he continue to the EU on 31 October. face both ways—deceive the public and use no deal for his own electoral gain? (Broxtowe) (IGC): Further to the question asked by the right hon. Member for South West The Prime Minister: I am afraid I do not agree with Hertfordshire (Mr Gauke), will the Prime Minister confirm what the right hon. Lady said about no deal. As I said that described the renegotiations on the steps of Downing Street, I think there will be as a “sham”? Will he also tell the House—a simple yes bumps on the road, but this is a very great country and or no will do—whether it is true that he rang the editor a very great economy, and we will get it done. I am of The Daily Telegraph and remonstrated with him afraid that the most fatal thing to getting a deal is for about those reports, of which we have all now heard? this country to show that it is so apprehensive about Yes or no, Prime Minister—did you ring him up? coming out on other terms as to accept anything that the EU prescribes. That is, I am afraid, the course down The Prime Minister: I am grateful to the right hon. which the right hon. Member for Islington North (Jeremy Lady, but I do not comment on leaks. As I say, I saw the Corbyn) is beckoning us to go. That would be a disaster. story on the front of the Telegraph this morning. It seemed to me wholly implausible, but—I can happily (West Worcestershire) (Con): I warmly answer her question on that—I have not seen fit to ring welcome the Prime Minister’s announcement at the G7 any journalist today on any matter, because as you can to give more money to Education Cannot Wait and the imagine, I have been working flat out to get out of the leadership he has consistently shown on the importance EU on 31 October. of girls’ education around the world. Will he commit to continuing to champion this cause and seek for more of (Chelsea and Fulham) (Con): When it our aid budget to be spent on global education? comes to alternative arrangements to the backstop, the commission that I co-chair is making real progress. The Prime Minister: I thank my hon. Friend for Yesterday, we published a revised withdrawal agreement everything she has done, both on the development front and a political declaration. We are hosting a conference and in the Foreign and Commonwealth Office,to champion in Dundalk next week, bringing together parliamentarians female education around the world. I believe that 12 years from across these islands. I thank the Prime Minister of quality education is the single most effective policy for the meetings that I have had with his team and I for solving most of the ills of the world. assure him that our proposals are in very good shape going forward. Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/ Co-op): The Prime Minister has made a number of wild The Prime Minister: I thank my right hon. Friend for and unsubstantiated claims about the negotiations. Can the fantastic work that he has done with many colleagues I ask him directly: did the UK’s chief Brexit negotiator, to prepare for the alternative arrangements that really Frost, in a Tuesday 27 August EU sub-committee meeting, do hold out the prospect of a solution to the problem of 39 G7 Summit 3 SEPTEMBER 2019 G7 Summit 40

[The Prime Minister] (Winchester) (Con): As the Prime Minister knows, my constituents are passionately pro-deal, and I the Northern Irish border—[Interruption.] If the hon. think he is too; in fact I know he is—he has told me that Gentleman would care to study the report, he might personally and he has told the House many times. But elucidate himself on that matter. There are a number of can I bust one of the most dishonest myths of all, which proposals that have been made, and indeed, many others, is that one cannot respect the referendum result and be that hold out real hope of progress, but those are not in favour of leaving with a deal? That is where I and, I the only areas in which we are making progress. There think, all my constituents are. The Prime Minister has are several areas in which we are now discussing how said today that the chances of a deal have increased and the UK can retire whole and perfect from the EU while that things are moving. What evidence of progress can retaining the integrity of the market in Ireland. That is he put before the House before the vote this week? It a hard thing to achieve, but it can be done. could be critical to where people such as me go.

Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): First, The Prime Minister: I would just make one point: I apologise to the Prime Minister because I did explode before we began our efforts, it was common ground a little when he said something about loyalty and I with the EU27 that every dot and comma of the withdrawal thought about the loyalty that was sometimes deficient agreement was immutable and could not be changed, when we had a different Prime Minister—the right hon. but that is no longer the case. We are already shifting Member for Maidenhead (Mrs May). My apologies for them, in Ireland, in Berlin and in France. Progress is that, but the one thing that I really welcome out of the being made, and now is not the time to slacken that G7 statement he made is what he said about girls’ work. education. My daughter was a to a former Foreign Secretary. Will he tell me whether it is Stewart Malcolm McDonald (Glasgow South) (SNP): right that a special adviser could be treated like the Ruth Davidson walked last week, the Prime Minister’s young woman was in No. 10—to be sacked on the spot majority in this place has gone this week, and he might and marched out of No. 10 by an armed police officer? even expel his hero Churchill’s grandson from his own Is that the way to treat women in work, or is it not? party. I do not care what he does to his own party, but I The Prime Minister: I thank the hon. Gentleman for take exception to the impact of his policy on Scotland. the support that he gives to our campaign and the UK Would Scots not be better to vote for independence so cause of 12 years of quality education for every girl in as to maintain our place in the EU? the world, and indeed, I thank members of his family for what they have done to support that campaign. On The Prime Minister: Scots did not swallow that argument staffing matters, I will not comment, as he would expect. in 2014—[Interruption.] No, they rejected it by a thumping majority.They could see that they were better off together Mr (Basildon and Billericay) (Con): Most with the rest of the UK, and so it remains. of us in this place would prefer a good trade deal to no deal at all, but will the Prime Minister reflect on the fact Richard Drax (South Dorset) (Con): Does my right that of the top 10 of the EU’s trading partners, half hon. Friend agree that the last thing we hear about in trade on WTO no-deal terms? Will he therefore continue this place is the democratic will of the 17.4 million to put to the sword this ludicrous suggestion that Britain people who voted to leave the EU? Make no mistake: would be incapable of trading on such terms? We would the motion, if passed tonight, and the Bill on Wednesday prosper. would mean nothing less than revocation of article 50, because they would bind his hands to the point that we The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is totally right. would never ever be able to leave? There is a huge opportunity for the UK to recover its standing, which it used to have before 1973, as a great The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is entirely right. individual actor and campaigner for global free trade. I am afraid that too many people who want to vote for That is what we are going to do, not just with a great the motions tonight and tomorrow really seek to frustrate free trade deal with our EU friends, which of course the will of the people and to overturn and cancel the will be the centrepiece of our negotiations, but with free result of the referendum. trade deals around the world. Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): Ten million Jessica Morden (Newport East) (Lab): Did the Prime pounds to protect the rain forest is welcome, but far Minister have an opportunity at the G7 to discuss the more effective would be to stand up to President Bolsonaro, steel industry? I ask this on behalf of the 380 employees who is deliberately accelerating and encouraging these of Cogent Orb in Newport who yesterday received the fires to open up more of the Amazon, threatening devastating news that Tata is to close its plant. It is indigenous communities and accelerating the climate tragic for them, and tragic as it is the only plant in the crisis. Will the Prime Minister do the right thing and UK that produces electrical steel that could, with refuse any future trading arrangements with Brazil unless Government encouragement, be a part of the supply and until high environmental and human rights standards chain for electric vehicles. are properly and fully enforced? The Prime Minister: A huge amount of work is going The Prime Minister: I would be reluctant to encourage on at the moment in respect of the Tata investments. any measure now that did anything to reduce free trade The hon. Lady will have seen what was achieved recently around the world. It would be much better to support with British Steel in Scunthorpe and Skinningrove. I the reforestation of Brazil in the way we are. We have a thank my right hon. Friend the Business Secretary for campaign to plant 1 trillion trees. that, and indeed the previous Business Secretary for his 41 G7 Summit 3 SEPTEMBER 2019 G7 Summit 42 work in getting the deal done. We will indeed ensure The Prime Minister: As the hon. Lady would imagine, that British steel—UK steel—is used in the supply the proper processes were gone through to ensure that chain for electric vehicles. we were able to announce a Queen’s Speech. Opposition Members have been calling for a Queen’s Speech for Ross Thomson ( South) (Con): Canada is in week after week, and the hon. Member for Walsall the Commonwealth, and is a close friend, ally and South (Valerie Vaz) has demanded one. [Interruption.] defence to trade. Will my right hon. Friend update the She has. We will also ensure that the Domestic Abuse House on the nature of his discussions with the Canadian Bill, the Animal Welfare (Sentencing) Bill and other Prime Minister Justin Trudeau in Biarritz? Bills receive proper consideration and are rolled over.

The Prime Minister: My discussions with Prime Minister Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con): This is, of course, Trudeau were extremely friendly. We look forward to a G7 statement, and the Prime Minister is a celebrated rolling over the comprehensive economic and trade internationalist, but may I make a local point? The agreement—the free trade deal—with Canada and taking people of Shropshire, in five constituencies, voted our relations to new heights. overwhelmingly for Brexit. Can my right hon. Friend make a slight departure from great matters of state and Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/ reassure the good people of Shropshire that Brexit will Co-op): Once again we have heard bluff and bluster be delivered? from the Prime Minister, after a summer during which he found a veritable forest of magic money trees. Can he The Prime Minister: I can, and the surest way to tell me where he will find the money—or has he found a deliver Brexit with a deal is to vote with the Government, pot of gold? both tonight and tomorrow.

The Prime Minister: May I invite the hon. Lady to Nick Thomas-Symonds (Torfaen) (Lab): For automotive listen to the Chancellor’s spending review statement manufacturers in my constituency and beyond, the WTO tomorrow? If she is seriously opposing this spending on tariffs that would apply in the case of a no-deal Brexit schools, hospitals and police when it is well within the would not only wipe out their profits but often exceed limits of fiscal prudence—if that is really what the Labour them. Why should anyone take what the Prime Minister party is all about now—I think she should say so. says about jobs and investment seriously when he has been so reckless with people’s livelihoods? Mr (North Shropshire) (Con): Can my right hon. Friend confirm that, during his various conversations over the past few weeks, he has made it The Prime Minister: We are working with all sectors, absolutely clear to all our neighbours and partners that including automotive supply chains, to protect their we will establish complete sovereign control over our interests, but of course the best way to ensure that we exclusive economic zone from 1 November and that we do not have a no-deal Brexit is to support the Government will negotiate,like a perfectly normal, independent maritime and to oppose the measures that the Leader of the nation, reciprocal arrangements with our neighbours? Opposition is putting forward. In that context, has he already begun negotiations with our Nordic neighbours, given that arrangements with Vicky Ford (Chelmsford) (Con): May I thank my them would normally be settled over the coming few right hon. Friend for mentioning Ben Stokes in his weeks with a view to a 1 January start? speech? I was lucky enough to be there that day, and it reminded me that sometimes even the most difficult of The Prime Minister: I can certainly confirm that we challenges can be achieved. I do believe it will be will be out of the common fisheries policy by 2020. We possible to achieve an agreed negotiation with the EU, will take back control of our fisheries—unlike the Scottish although it is difficult. If it is achieved on 17 October, is National party, which, in a supine and invertebrate way, there sufficient time for this House to approve all the would hand them back to Brussels. necessary legislation before the end of that month?

Jess Phillips (Birmingham, Yardley) (Lab): I beg the The Prime Minister: Yes, indeed there is time, and we Prime Minister to answer the question that I am going have gone over that thoroughly. I am delighted by my to ask, rather than just saying “No comment” as if this hon. Friend’s confidence; she speaks as someone well- were a magazine interview. acquainted with the ways of Brussels and the EU, and Along with others, I have filed papers for a legal case she will know that the deals are always done, as it were, against the Prorogation of Parliament, because I do not on the steps of the court in the final furlong. That is want the Domestic Abuse Bill—for which so many where we will get the deal. people in this House have worked so hard—to fall. I signed my witness statements yesterday. I had to go to Liz Kendall (Leicester West) (Lab): Can the Prime my mother-in-law’s to print them, because I do not have Minister completely set the record straight on this? If a printer, but I think that they probably have one at Parliament passes legislation requiring him to request No. 10. an extension of article 50 beyond 31 October, will he Is it true that senior civil servants have refused to sign abide by the law? witness statements for ongoing legal proceedings relating to the Prorogation? Were the director of legislative The Prime Minister: I have answered this question affairs and the Cabinet Secretary asked to do so, and twice before. We will abide by the law, but I have to say I did they agree? I signed mine; did they? think it is a quite incredible thing to propose, deleterious 43 G7 Summit 3 SEPTEMBER 2019 G7 Summit 44

[The Prime Minister] Parliament,whichhasamandate—unlikeyourGovernment, who no longer have a majority—should not legislate to the interests of this country and this Government, against a no deal because that would somehow scupper and it will make it impossible for us to get the deal this your plans, which nobody knows. Prime Minister, why country needs. should we trust that you have a plan and, indeed, that you can deliver it? David Tredinnick (Bosworth) (Con): Will my right hon. Friend explain in greater detail the steps taken at The Prime Minister: I will tell you why, Mr Speaker. the G7 to protect endangered species? It is because the alternative is more delay, more chaos, more confusion and uncertainty for British business, The Prime Minister: I can indeed explain. My hon. and the infinite protraction of UK membership of the Friend will recall that under the Kyoto protocol, targets EU at the behest of the EU itself. That is what the were set for the reduction of greenhouse gases; what the Leader of the Opposition is proposing. world now wants to see is specific targets—quanta—for the protection of endangered species, whether flora or fauna. It is a tragedy that the number of elephants in Maggie Throup (Erewash) (Con): Does my right hon. the wild is down now to about 300,000 and the number Friend agree that if the leaders of Europe are willing to of lions down to perhaps 15,000; we are seeing the give the Government time to bring forward new proposals tragic reduction of species around the world, and the for leaving the EU with a deal, ahead of the crucial world needs to work together to prevent that loss of summit on 17 October, so should this House? habitat and loss of species, and that is what we agreed to do at G7. [Interruption.] The right hon. Member for The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is completely Islington South and Finsbury (Emily Thornberry) does right. We need time to get this deal over the line. The not care about it, but, believe me, the people of this crucial summit will be on 17 October—that is when the country care passionately—they care passionately about deal is generally expected to be done—and I would kindly what is happening to animals around the world. She is ask the House not to fetter the ability of our negotiators totally indifferent to it, but my constituents certainly to do that deal. are not. Stella Creasy (Walthamstow) (Lab/Co-op): In response Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab): The Prime to the suggestion by Chancellor Merkel that a deal Minister tells us he is going to Dublin on Monday to see could be done in 30 days and that alternative proposals the Taoiseach where no doubt he will be asked, as he could be put forward, the Prime Minister said: has been asked today,about his proposals for the backstop, … so may I ask if he has seen the comment from former “You rightly say the onus is on us to produce those solutions You have set a very blistering timetable of 30 days—if I understood Member of this House , who says that he you correctly, I am more than happy with that.” has Given that the Prime Minister accepted the 30-day “had same reports re ‘sham negotiations’ from multiple govt sources” challenge and said that the onus was on this place and this country to come up with solutions, why will he not and that if it is not true, the Government should publish answer the question from the hon. Member for Winchester their proposals to replace the backstop? Why will he not (Steve Brine)? [Interruption.] Wait for it, Prime Minister! do that? That is the question that we are all asking: where is the evidence that, halfway towards his own deadline, he has The Prime Minister: We do not negotiate in public, done anything at all? but I think I have given the House quite a lot already about what we want and what we want to do. The one thing that will stop us achieving this is if our negotiating The Prime Minister: I really think that the hon. Lady ability is neutralised by this House of Commons. should learn to count. The 30-day timetable may have begun, but it has not elapsed. What our friends and Huw Merriman (Bexhill and Battle) (Con): In order partners want to see is that the House of Commons is to get the leverage to get this great deal through that the not going to block Brexit. They are not going to make a Prime Minister is working on, he has said that any concession to this side, to our country, until they know Member on these Benches who does not vote tonight in that the House of Commons is not going to block support of the Government will lose the Whip and Brexit. We will be bringing forward our proposals in indeed not be able to stand again as a Conservative MP. due time, long before the 30 days are up, but what we Working on that basis, in the event that a deal is want to see is that the UK Parliament stands behind reached, which I very much hope it will be, will that our negotiators. And that is what they want to see in treatment apply to those MPs who do not vote for his Brussels. great deal? Stephen Hammond (Wimbledon) (Con): I voted for The Prime Minister: I think my hon. Friend can take the withdrawal agreement three times, so I am pleased it that what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the to hear that the Prime Minister expects to make progress gander. throughout September and October. He will know that it was the policy of the previous Prime Minister to keep (Leeds West) (Lab): Your argument this House regularly updated. For those of us who are seems to be that you have a plan but that you just considering how to vote tonight, were he to reconsider cannot share it with the House, or indeed with Chancellor his decision and make statements throughout the whole of Merkel, and that we just have to trust you; and that September and October, that would be a material factor. 45 G7 Summit 3 SEPTEMBER 2019 G7 Summit 46

The Prime Minister: I am grateful to my hon. Friend; all the legislation between 19 October and 31 October? we have battled together on many fronts. I can commit, That seems an awful lot to do in that time, so it is vital of course, to updating the House regularly on this that we get that assurance. matter. It is highly unlikely that you could keep me away—when the House is sitting—and that is what I The Prime Minister: Of course. Other hon. Members will do. Indeed, my hon. Friend can expect a statement have asked exactly the same question today.I can certainly right now from the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, make this offer: we would be very happy to brief my so he does not have to wait until September. hon. Friend on exactly how that can be done. We are sure it can be done. Mr Pat McFadden (Wolverhampton South East) (Lab): The Prime Minister has described the consequences of Kate Hoey (Vauxhall) (Lab): When there is a conflict a no-deal exit as a few “bumps in the road”. If that is between what the people of this country voted for after the case, is not the right time to have a general election being asked a question by this Parliament and the many after his few bumps in the road have been implemented, Members in this Parliament who seem to want to stop when he can fully own the consequences, rather than the people’s decision being implemented, whose side is relying on making statements about them before they he on? have actually happened?

The Prime Minister: I do not want an election; I want The Prime Minister: The hon. Lady has been very to deliver Brexit on 31 October, and I think that that is valiant on this issue for many years, and I support and what the people of this country want. agree with her. After 45 years of EU membership—the institution has changed radically since the British Mr Shailesh Vara (North West Cambridgeshire) (Con): people were last consulted—it was right to ask people The United Kingdom already has close links with India, whether they thought that their future belonged in that not least because of the valuable contribution made by federalising, tightly integrating body, because that went the 1.6 million who make up the British-Indian diaspora. to the questions of their identity, their future and what What discussions did my right hon. Friend have at the they thought of their country. When they returned their G7 with Prime Minister Modi of India about strengthening verdict, it was absolutely right for us to agree with and those ties post Brexit? implement that verdict, and this House of Commons has promised many times to do so. I hope we now get on The Prime Minister: I did indeed have an extremely and do it. good conversation with Prime Minister Modi, and we agreed to strengthen our co-operation not just on the (Harlow) (Con): My constituents, 68% security side, where clearly the UK and India stand of whom voted to leave, are incredibly dismayed about shoulder to shoulder in the fight against terror, but on what they see as shenanigans in Westminster to try to military co-operation in the Asia-Pacific region, where stop Brexit. Does my right hon. Friend agree that if we we share many interests, and, of course, on free trade as do not deliver Brexit by 31 October, constituents in well—doing a big free trade deal with India. I thank my Harlow and across the country will have incredible hon. Friend for everything he does to promote that mistrust in our Parliament and our democracy? incredibly important relationship. The Prime Minister: My right hon. Friend puts his finger Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I thank the Prime on the issue. If we fail to deliver Brexit, we risk incurring Minister for his statement. The G7 has delivered great a fatal lack of trust not just in the major parties—in all things for the Global Fund’s fight against AIDS, saving parties—but in our democracy itself. an estimated 27 million lives worldwide, but does the Prime Minister agree that its primary function is to see Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind): I think the Prime countries come together for mutual benefit? What benefit Minister owes the people of Northern Ireland some does the Prime Minister believe the 2019 G7 summit explanation of why he and his Government have treated brought to the United and the —the Belfast agreement—in Northern Ireland? such a careless and cavalier manner. That agreement has kept stability and peace in Northern Ireland since it The Prime Minister: As I said in my statement, the was signed 21 years ago. UK depends on a global trading system that is open. One of the most important things agreed at the G7—in It is reported that Solicitor’s Office in the face of rising tensions between China and America— Belfast has advised the Government that a no-deal was to support the WTO and the rules-based international Brexit would be in contravention of the Good Friday system. I was delighted that Washington actually made agreement, so I call upon the Prime Minister to publish a commitment, which I hope will be followed through, today, in full—he owes that to the people of Northern to return their member to the appellate body of the Ireland, and certainly to this House—any legal advice WTO in Geneva, which is important for global free he has received from the Crown Solicitor’s Office about trade. how a no-deal Brexit would contravene the agreement.

Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con): Further to the question The Prime Minister: I thank the hon. Lady, and I from my hon. Friend the Member for Chelmsford (Vicky know she has been a long-standing campaigner for Ford), when the Prime Minister brings this deal to us peace in Northern Ireland. However, I must respectfully next month—I very much hope and I am sure he say to her that, actually, it is the backstop and the will—will he explain whether plans are in place to pass withdrawal agreement itself that undermine the balance 47 G7 Summit 3 SEPTEMBER 2019 G7 Summit 48

[The Prime Minister] Rachel Maclean (Redditch) (Con): I warmly welcome my right hon. Friend’s commitment to getting us out of of the Good Friday agreement because, in important the EU on 31 October, for which 62% of my constituents matters, they give a greater preponderance to the voice in Redditch voted. Does he agree that the greatest of Dublin in the affairs of Northern Ireland than they damage to our democracy, in the eyes of the silent do to the UK—the UK having left the EU. That is a majority of our constituents out in the country, is to fail simple fact, and I do not think it is widely enough to honour that promise? understood. That is one of the reasons the withdrawal agreement itself is in conflict with the Good Friday The Prime Minister: I could not have put it better agreement. myself. I am very grateful to my hon. Friend. As for the advice the hon. Lady asks about, I have not seen any such advice. (Rhondda) (Lab): If a police officer in Tonypandy or Maerdy arrests a suspect, he or she can Sir (New Forest West) (Con): I immediately,and in real time, consult all the EU databases once took a train to to negotiate the price of criminality, which is essential to being able to send and purchase of a Morris Minor, having purchased criminals to prison. Border officers can also consult only a one-way ticket. It was not a sensible negotiating those databases when a person hands over their passport. strategy, was it? If we leave without a deal, as the former Prime Minister rightly said, there will be no deal on security. How will The Prime Minister: No, it was not. I do not know we make sure that the people are safe if we leave what happened to my right hon. Friend and his Morris without a deal on 31 October? Minor, but we intend to do a much better deal in Brussels over the next few weeks. The Prime Minister: I have no doubt that we will continue bilateral arrangements with our EU friends to Peter Kyle (Hove) (Lab): The Prime Minister admonishes ensure that both of our populations are protected, but I this House that the EU is looking to see whether we will am glad that the hon. Gentleman gives me the opportunity block Brexit, but he is almost oblivious to the fact that to remind the House that we are recruiting another he twice voted against the deal that the EU signed off. 20,000 police officers to make this country safer and Why is it okay for him to vote against it, but not us? one of the safest in the world.

The Prime Minister: I think what everybody in this Several hon. Members rose— House wants to do—I hope it is what they want to do—is to bring Brexit to a conclusion and to get this Mr Speaker: Order. Statement, the Chancellor of the thing done. If the hon. Gentleman wants to deliver Duchy of Lancaster. [Interruption.] I am sorry. We have Brexit with a deal, the best thing he can do is support heard 53 Back Benchers, and we must move on to the the Government tonight and tomorrow. next statement. 49 3 SEPTEMBER 2019 Leaving the EU: Preparations 50

Leaving the EU: Preparations not a prediction of what is likely to happen; they are not a base-case scenario or a list of probable outcomes. They are projections of what may happen in a worst-case 5.4 pm scenario, and they are designed to help government to The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Michael take the necessary steps to ensure that we can all be Gove): This is the first time I have appeared at the ready in every situation. Dispatch Box since I moved on from the Department Since the new Government were formed, at the end of for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs. I would like July, new structures have been put in place to ensure to take this opportunity to thank the superb team of that we can be ready in every situation and that we can civil servants at that Department, who do so much to accelerate our preparations for exit. Two new Cabinet improve the lives of so many across this country. Committees have been set up—XS and XO—to discuss With your permission, Mr Speaker, I would like to negotiating strategy and to make operational decisions make a statement about preparations for our departure about exit respectively. XO meets every working day to from the European Union. More than three years ago, expedite preparations for exit, and we are in regular in the biggest exercise in democracy in our country’s contact with our colleagues in the devolved Administrations, history, the British people voted to leave the EU, but so including the Northern Ireland civil service, and thousands far this Parliament has failed to honour that instruction. of the best civil servants across the UK are working to Now, our Prime Minister has made it clear that we must ensure the smoothest possible exit. leave by 31 October, and so we must. Trust in this We have all been helped by the Chancellor’s move to House depends on it and trust in our democracy depends double Brexit funding for this year, announcing an on it. additional £2.1 billion, on top of expenditure already Of course, this Government are determined to secure committed. So £6.3 billion in total has been allocated to our departure with a good deal, one that paves the way prepare for life outside the EU. That money is being for a bright future outside the single market and the used to provide practical help to businesses and to customs union, and the response the Prime Minister individuals. has received from European leaders shows that they are Guaranteeing the effective flow of goods across our ready to move—they want a deal, too. And they are border with the EU is,of course,central to our preparations, moving because the Prime Minister has been clear that and that will require action by business, to adjust to new matters must be resolved by 31 October. If we drift, the customs procedures, and intervention by government, incentive on them to deliver will quickly dissipate, so I to ensure the freest flow of traffic to our ports. That is hope that my colleagues in the House of Commons will why Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs has announced give the Prime Minister the time and the space he needs an additional expenditure of £16 million to train thousands to pursue the opening he has secured and to get a good of customs staff, traders and hauliers, so that trade with deal that we can all support. the EU continues as smoothly as possible. It is also why But of course we must be prepared for every eventuality; today we are announcing £20 million more to ensure the European Union may not change its position sufficiently that traffic can flow freely in and trucks arriving at before 31 October, and it may be that a deal is not Dover are ready to carry our exports into the EU. secured. So we must be ready to leave without a deal on On business, we have automatically allocated an 31 October. Leaving without a deal does not mean that economic operator registration indicator—EORI—number talks with our European partners end altogether. In to 88,000 companies across the UK, and businesses can those circumstances, after we depart without a deal in also register for transitional simplified procedures to place, we will all want to discuss how we can reach new delaythe submissions of customs declarations and postpone arrangements on trade and other issues. But while those the payments of duties. New transit sites have been built conversations go on, we must ensure that we are ready in Kent to smooth the flow of goods into the EU, and for life outside the EU as a third country, trading on we are recruiting 1,000 new staff to help to maintain World Trade Organisation terms. security and to support flows at the border. There has been extensive speculation about what The Government will do all that we can to support leaving without a deal might mean for businesses and businesses to get ready, but many of the steps required individuals. Moving to a new set of customs procedures, to ensure the smooth flow of trade fall to business. We adjusting to new border checks and dealing with new will provide advice, finance and flexibility over how tariffs all pose significant challenges, and nobody can revenue payments may be settled, but it is important be blithe or blasé about the challenges we face or the that businesses familiarise themselves with the new scale of work required. But provided the right preparations requirements that exit will involve. That is why we have are undertaken by government, business and individuals, launched a public information campaign, “Get ready risks can be mitigated, significant challenges can be met for Brexit”, to give everyone the clear actions that they and we can be ready. Leaving without a deal is, of need to prepare. As well as TV and radio advertising, course, not an event whose consequences are unalterable; there is now a straightforward, step-by-step checker it is a change for which we can all prepare, and our tool, available on the Government’swebsite at gov.uk/brexit, preparations will determine the impact of the change so we can all identify quickly what we may need to do to and help us also to take advantage of the opportunities get ready. that exist outside the EU. The Government have also acted to provide assurance We have, of course, to prepare for every eventuality, that business and individuals can have the maximum and that is the function of . It level of confidence about the future. We have signed is an exercise in anticipating what a reasonable worst-case continuity agreements with countries, covering more scenario might involve and how we can then mitigate than £90 billion in trade. We have replacement civil any risks. Operation Yellowhammer assumptions are nuclear energy trading agreements with Canada, America, 51 Leaving the EU: Preparations3 SEPTEMBER 2019 Leaving the EU: Preparations 52

[Michael Gove] There are undoubted risks and real challenges in leaving without a deal on 31 October, but there are also Australia and the International Atomic Energy Agency. opportunities and new possibilities for our country We have secured aviation agreements with 14 countries, outside the EU. It is my job to mitigate those risks, including the US and Canada, and we also have overcome those challenges and enable this country to arrangements with the EU on aviation, roads and rail to exploit those opportunities and extend to every citizen ensure smooth travel between the UK and European those new possibilities. That is why I commend this nations.Wealso have arrangements on education exchanges, statement to the House and why I am confident that as social security, fisheries, climate change and a number a nation our best days lie ahead. of other areas. Agreements are in place covering financial services, so that transactions can continue to take place and financial and market stability can be underpinned. 5.14 pm Of course, we have a robust legal framework in place: (Hemsworth) (Lab): This is the first six exit-related Bills that cater for different scenarios opportunity that I have had to congratulate the right have been passed, and the Government have also laid hon. Gentleman on his appointment. He may regard it more than 580 EU-exit statutory instruments. as a poisoned chalice, but no doubt the Prime Minister Of course, the Government are determined to ensure thought it appropriate that he took it. that we protect the rights both of UK nationals in the I thank the Minister for his courtesy in providing EU and of EU citizens in the UK. I personally want to advance sight of the statement—it was rather vacuous, thank the more than 3 million EU citizens who live and but we did have a good chance to study it carefully. He work here for their positive contribution to our society: makes much of the work that has been carried out by you are our friends, family and neighbours—we want civil servants who have been working under intense you to stay and we value your presence. Under the EU pressure preparing businesses, individuals and wider settlement scheme, more than 1 million EU citizens society for Brexit. We acknowledge the very hard work have already been granted status. Let me be clear: EU of all those civil servants and thank them for their citizens and their family members will continue to be service, and we welcome the work that the Government able to work, study and access benefits and services in are doing in that respect. However, the truth is that the UK on the same basis as now after we exit the EU. £6.3 billion is being spent on Brexit preparations, yet it The Government will of course do everything in our is too little now, because it is too late. Even if all the power to make sure that UK nationals can continue to preparations had been carried out in time and in a more live in the EU as they do now, but the Government comprehensive way, the country would still have no idea cannot protect the rights of UK nationals unilaterally. whether we will leave with a deal or with no deal. We welcome the fact that member states have drafted or Let me come straight to the point, because there are enacted legislation to protect the rights of UK nationals; significant omissions in the Minister’s statement. There today, we call on member states to go further and fully is no mention, for example, of medical supplies, but in reciprocate our generous commitment to EU citizens, the past 24 hours serious-minded health leaders have so that UK nationals can get the certainty they deserve. warned that no deal could result directly in medical There are other decisions that the EU and member shortages, affect treatment for UK nationals in Europe states have said they will take that will have an impact and exacerbate the already difficult NHS crisis. It has on us all if we leave without a deal. The EU’s commitment been reported that the Government are now stockpiling that we will be subject to its common external tariff in a body bags because of concerns that there may be an no-deal scenario will impose new costs, particularly on increase in the mortality rate. Will the Minister assure those who export food to Europe. Indeed, the EU’s the House that that is not the case, but if it is, will he current approach to the rules of the single market will, explain what he is doing about it? as things stand, require the Republic of Ireland to The statement mentions that 1 million EU citizens impose new checks on goods coming from Northern have been given settled status. We welcome that, but Ireland. For our part, we will do everything that we can there are more than 3 million here. The Government’s to support the Belfast agreement, to ensure the free flow prevarication over time and their inadequate preparations of goods into Northern Ireland and to mitigate the right from the beginning have caused great anxiety and impacts on Northern Ireland, including by providing left millions of people who live here, pay taxes here, targeted support for our agriculture sector and for have made their lives here and have their children here Northern Ireland’s economy. wondering what their future holds. It is a mark of the Although there are risks that we must deal with, there slow progress that is being made that the Government are also opportunities for life outside the EU. We can still have not resolved the status of UK citizens who are reform Government procurement rules, get a better deal living in Europe, as the Minister said. for taxpayers and forge new trade relationships. We can innovate more energetically in pharmaceuticals and life The Minister talks about getting businesses ready, yet sciences, develop crops that yield more food and contribute it is only a few weeks ago that these serious-minded to better environmental outcomes, manage our seas and business leaders demanded an independent inquiry into fisheries in a way that revives coastal communities, and what a no-deal Brexit would consist of, amid accusations restore our oceans to health. We can introduce an that vital information about potential problems was immigration policy that is fairer, more efficient and deliberately being held back by the Government—that more humane, improve our border security, deal better was from the business community itself. with human trafficking and organised crime, open new In the early part of his statement, the Minister made free ports throughout the country to boost undervalued much of trust—trust in this House and trust in communities, and support business more flexibly than democracy—but the truth is that the Government are ever before. playing fast and loose both with democracy and with 53 Leaving the EU: Preparations3 SEPTEMBER 2019 Leaving the EU: Preparations 54 the House. I say that because of the proposal that the Those were his exact words. But that is precisely what House be prorogued and because the Prime Minister’s the Government are now trying to do. How can he staff are now hinting at a possible cynical general justify the amount of resources being spent on preparations election, which we are ready for. One way or another, for no deal without any scrutiny or accountability to the Government are set on closing down the House of this House? It is simply unacceptable. Commons for weeks when the country is facing one of Under normal purdah rules, the Select Committees the most difficult times in our recent history. If there is looking at Brexit preparations and Yellowhammer could an election—this is a very important point—the direction also be suspended, leaving absolutely no scrutiny by of the country and its relationship with the EU will be Members of the Government’s plans. When it comes to hotly debated. We and the country will need full access Yellowhammer, the media appear to be better informed to all the relevant information. The Minister’s statement than the House, so let me briefly ask the Minister some conceals more than it reveals, but can he confirm that, questions. during an election period or a Prorogation period, whichever it is, civil service preparations for Brexit will Mr Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman, who is well continue through the election purdah if necessary? Can in excess of his time, can ask two or three questions, but he confirm whether, during the purdah, Ministers will they need to be in a sentence or two. continue to provide political guidance to civil servants on Brexit? I give notice now that the Opposition will Jon Trickett: What assessments has the Minister received seek immediate access to the civil service and ask to be about disruption at the ports? What assessments have kept fully informed, as is the convention, of all the been made and reported to him about the situation in information that the House and the country have been Ireland? What assessments has he received about the denied about all developments. That request must be impact of no deal on food prices? All these matters responded to the minute the election is called. must be addressed by the House, so let him place the Just eight weeks ago, the current Prime Minister told documents in the Library so that we all can explore them. his party and the country that the chances of a no-deal Brexit were a million to one against. Yet this morning, Michael Gove: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman the former Chancellor, who is no longer in his place, for his questions. I am also grateful to him for asking stated that no progress has been made and that there are me how I reconcile the progress of my career—it is a no substantive negotiations going on. Is that true? The question my wife asks me every night, so I am grateful two positions cannot be easily reconciled. Either there to him for repeating it. I have enormous respect and is progress or there is not. Having heard the Prime affection for the hon. Gentleman. We both represent Minister in the Chamber just now, it is clear that most constituencies that voted to leave the European Union, people still have no idea. and both of us are impatient to see us do so. When a To most informed observers, however, it appears that Brexit delay was suggested in January 2019, he said the Government’s favoured deal—whatever they say—is that it no deal, so let us listen to the Minister’s own words from “sounds like the British establishment doing what it always does, earlier this year. He said: which is ignoring the views of millions of ordinary folk, and that I am not prepared to tolerate.” “Leaving without a deal…would undoubtedly cause economic turbulence. Almost everyone in this debate accepts that.” Comrades, neither am I, which is why we have to leave on 31 October. He went on to say: The hon. Gentleman said that civil servants are doing “We didn’t vote to leave without a deal”. a fantastic job in the preparations, and I join him in That was from the man who led the whole campaign to paying tribute to them for their work. He asked about leave the European Union. He was for May’s deal and medical shortages. Sadly, medical shortages sometimes against no deal, but now he is the Minister for no deal. occur, whether we are in or out of the European Union, How does he reconcile the progress of his career? as we have seen recently with the hormone replacement The House must be allowed to see the detailed therapy shortages, which my right hon. Friend the assessments contained in the Yellowhammer dossier. Secretary of State for Health and Social Care is doing The truth is that the Minister is hiding it, but why? The so much to help counter. But that is a shared issue for us media are reporting that the Yellowhammer papers—even all. Two thirds of the medical supplies that reach the the watered-down versions that he is working on—paint Republic of Ireland pass through the narrow straits. such a disastrous picture of the country after no deal That is why it is so important that we secure a deal, not that the Government dare not publish them. Yet shockingly, only to safeguard our superb NHS, but to help citizens leaked excerpts talk of potential shortages, delays and in Ireland, who are our brothers and sisters, too. even protests on the streets. The hon. Gentleman also asked about the EU settled Is it not a disgrace that the Government intend to status scheme. He made the point that 1 million people close Parliament down for five weeks without allowing have received the status so far, and he asked about the House to scrutinise their detailed preparations for progress. Every day, 15,000 more people are applying. no deal? Members have a right to know what those The settled status scheme is working. He is absolutely preparations are, as has the country. After all, it was right that now is the time for our European partners to this Minister who said: extend the same generosity to UK citizens as we are extending to EU citizens. “We are a parliamentary democracy, and”— The hon. Gentleman talked about the money being listen to this— spent. At the beginning of his questions, he said that “proroguing Parliament in order to try to get no deal through…would £6.3 billion was too little, too late, but subsequently at be wrong.” the end of his statement he asked how we can justify 55 Leaving the EU: Preparations3 SEPTEMBER 2019 Leaving the EU: Preparations 56

[Michael Gove] When it comes to lorries coming into this country, thanks to the application of transitional simplified such expenditure. I think that is the fastest U-turn in procedures, any duty that needs to be paid can be history, in the course of just six minutes. He also talked deferred. Of course, we will be prioritising flow over about our contemplation of a “cynical” general election. revenue, which means that we will not be imposing new I thought it was the policy of the Opposition—certainly checks, certainly in the first months after any no-deal the Leader of the Opposition—to welcome a general exit. I agree with my right hon. Friend that a no-deal election at the earliest possible opportunity. [Interruption.] exit is undesirable. For lorries that are leaving the country, I see the Leader of the Opposition seeking guidance on there will be six new transit sites—five in Kent and one this question from Mr Speaker. in Essex—to ensure that hauliers leaving the UK can take advantage of the common transit convention and Mr Speaker: Order. I know the Minister will not want its provisions. to mislead the House. The Leader of the Opposition was simply alerting me to his experience of visiting Romania, which is somewhat tangential to—indeed, Stephen Gethins (North East Fife) (SNP): May I put entirely divorced from—the Minister for the Cabinet Office’s on record my thanks to the officials who have been ruminations and lucubrations, which we do not need. given the impossible task of trying to make sense of this Government’s plans and to do something that they Michael Gove: Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. should never have been asked to do when it comes to no We all know how much the Leader of the Opposition deal? [Interruption.] The hon. Member for Shrewsbury enjoyed seeing Celtic play in Romania. and Atcham () may laugh, but these The hon. Member for Hemsworth (Jon Trickett) asked officials are working incredibly hard because of the me about the extent of our negotiations, and they are Government’s ineptitude. extensive; the Prime Minister, my right hon. Friend the Today in Holyrood, we see a tale of two Governments. Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union and Today, the have set out their the Prime Minister’s sherpa have been visiting every programme for government to tackle a climate emergency, single European capital to ensure that we can advance improve public services and introduce a fairer economy. our negotiations. But one thing is critical: if we are to Yet here we debate food shortages, medicine stockpiling, succeed in these negotiations, we need to get behind the price increases and job losses; the height of Government Prime Minister. If the motion before the House is ambition is hoping that it will not be as bad as the passed tonight and the legislation that it gives effect to experts tell them it will. is passed tomorrow, we will be allowing the European The Minister talked about a general election. We Union to dictate the length of any extension and to put would welcome a general election. In fact, I am going to any conditions it wishes to on that extension. That take the unusual step of inviting the Minister to come would totally undermine the Government’s capacity to and campaign in my constituency. I would love him to negotiate in the national interest. do that, so that people could ask him why he is putting It has been said of some in the past that they sent out them out of work, why he is hitting our food and drink the captain to the wicket and broke his bat beforehand. industry and why he is hitting our university sector. Well, Labour’s approach to negotiations is not just This is the height of political failure. It was only apt that breaking the bat; it is blowing up the whole pavilion. It the Minister quoted earlier, who of is no surprise that Labour Members want to sabotage course was attacking his own Prime Minister during an our negotiations, because they also want to sabotage ongoing Tory civil war. I notice that nobody is arguing their own negotiations. Labour’s policy on negotiation that this is a good idea any more. This is a Government is to have an infinitely long extension, to negotiate a who have no idea what they are doing and making it up new deal with Europe, to bring it back to this country, as they go along. No wonder they want to duck, dive and then to argue that people should vote against that and dodge any kind of scrutiny whatsoever. deal and vote to remain. How can we possibly have confidence in the Leader of the Opposition to negotiate We were warned before that Parliament would need in Europe when his own party does not have confidence to sit. Does the Minister agree with the Health Secretary in him to secure a good deal for the British people? that prorogation goes against everything that the men who waded on to those beaches in Normandy fought (Ashford) (Con): Those of us who live and died for? The Minister likes to quote others; does in east Kent, where the efficient operation of the Dover- he still agree with that? Calais route is essential for the smooth running of our On food prices, what will the impact be on food entire road network, have a particular reason to wish banks—on the most vulnerable, already hit by austerity my right hon. Friend well in his new task, particularly if from this disastrous Tory Government? What level of we end up with the very undesirable outcome of a medicine shortages is acceptable to the Government? no-deal Brexit. In that spirit, I welcome the extra £20 million On the £6.5 billion, from which public services is that to that he has announced today to ensure the increasingly be taken? Finally—I cannot quite believe I am asking smooth running of the road network, but can he tell the this question—does the Minister still believe in the rule House what arrangements Her Majesty’s Revenue and of law, and will he accept laws passed by this Parliament? Customs has put in place for customs clearance of lorries coming into this country? Specifically, where is that going to happen? Michael Gove: May I welcome the hon. Gentleman to his position? May I also say that I am very grateful for Michael Gove: My right hon. Friend makes a very his invitation to campaign in his constituency at the good point. There are two aspects to this issue: lorries next general election? Given that he has a majority of coming into this country and lorries leaving this country. just two, he is a brave as well as a principled man. 57 Leaving the EU: Preparations3 SEPTEMBER 2019 Leaving the EU: Preparations 58

Daniel Kawczynski (Shrewsbury and Atcham) (Con): Michael Gove: Of course we want to make sure Tory gain. that any documents we publish accurately reflect the range of possibilities that leaving the European Union Michael Gove: I think my hon. Friend is right. In might entail. Thousands of pages of information were Crail and Anstruther, as well as in St Andrews, I think published in the technical notices that were published people are looking forward to Conservative representation by my right hon. Friend the Brexit Secretary. It is also in North East Fife in due course. the case that on gov.uk/brexit there is much information The hon. Gentleman talks about a tale of two about what leaving the European Union would entail. Governments. Even as the Scottish Government are The right hon. Gentleman specifically refers to the unveiling their programme today, they are doing so, Yellowhammer document. The point about the after 10 years in government, with education standards Yellowhammer document is that it is an aid to Ministers declining and the number of people in the health service, in order to ensure that we can deal with the reasonable including doctors, declining—and unfortunately, as the worst-case scenario. Of course, the assumptions in the recent “Government Expenditure and Revenue Scotland” Yellowhammer document are arrived at independently figures show, Scotland, were it an independent country, by civil servants, and rightly so. would have the biggest deficit of any nation in Europe. That is hardly a record of success. Daniel Kawczynski: The BBC is constantly engaging with Polish diaspora groups in this country to accentuate Thehon.GentlemanasksaboutProrogation.Prorogation potential problems over the EU resettlement scheme. is necessary before every Queen’s Speech. One can no Could the Secretary of State give me an assurance of more be against Prorogation in order to ensure a Queen’s what money has been afforded to ensure that the maximum Speech than one can be against the functioning of this number of EU citizens are processed as quickly and Parliament, properly constituted. efficiently as possible in the event of no deal? The hon. Gentleman asks about food prices. Of course food prices fluctuate—some go up and some go down—but Michael Gove: My hon. Friend makes a very good the temporary tariff schedule that we have put in place point. He is a consistent champion for the rights of will protect consumers and ensure that in many cases Polish people in the UK and elsewhere. The largest food prices are either stable or drop. single community of EU citizens in our country is Ultimately, the problem for the hon. Gentleman is composed of Polish citizens. We were remembering that Scottish National party Members may talk about earlier the anniversary of the second world war. We democracy, but we have had two major referendums in honour the sacrifice of those Polish soldiers, airmen this country, both of which they seek to overturn. They and sailors who fought alongside us for democracy, and want to ignore the vote to stay in the United Kingdom it is our moral duty to ensure that Polish citizens in this and they want to ignore the vote to leave the European country are given the opportunity to stay and to enjoy Union. Their policy is take us back into the EU. That the rights of which we are all proud and for which their would mean abandoning the pound, abandoning coastal forebears fought so proudly. communities in Scotland, and once more recognising that the Scottish National party wants separatism and Catherine McKinnell (Newcastle upon Tyne North) Brussels rule ahead of a strong United Kingdom and (Lab): A no-deal Brexit, according to Government the benefits that it brings to the citizens of the whole UK. messaging, is something we can completely prepare for as long as we spend enough money on advertising, Sir (Hemel Hempstead) (Con): Does while at the same time so crucial and fundamental that the Secretary of State agree that trust—trust in this it must be kept on the table as part of the negotiations. Parliament and trust in politicians—is the most important It cannot be both. Which is it? thing in any democracy, and that any party that goes out on a manifesto saying that it wants to leave the Michael Gove: I thank the hon. Lady for her question. European Union and does not honour that cannot be The legal default position is that we leave on 31 October. trusted ever again in government? If the EU will not move and we do not secure a good deal, we need to be prepared for that eventuality. That is Michael Gove: My right hon. Friend makes a very the necessary outworking of article 50, for which I think good point. The Labour party said on page 24 of its the hon. Lady voted, along with many other colleagues 2017 manifesto that it was committed to leaving the across the House. European Union and respecting the referendum result, and the overwhelming majority of Labour Members—not Catherine McKinnell indicated dissent. all—voted for article 50, which set this year as the legal default date for departure from the European Union. I Michael Gove: If she did not, I can only apologise. absolutely respect the rule of law, and so should the I think a majority of her Labour colleagues did, but I Labour Members who voted to leave the EU. salute her independence of mind on that issue. The broader point I would make is that, because it is Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD): There an eventuality for which we have to prepare, it is prudent are widespread reports that the Secretary of State is that we should prepare, but one thing that I think the seeking to sanitise the Operation Yellowhammer documents. hon. Lady and I agree on is that it is infinitely preferable Can he confirm that any ministerial demand that civil that we leave with a deal. That is why we should give servants water down Operation Yellowhammer would the Prime Minister the space and time to negotiate, break the ministerial code, that no civil servants risk which is why I hope that she, along with me, will decline being disciplined if they refuse to undertake this work to vote for any motion today that would fetter the Prime and that they will be covered by whistleblower legislation? Minister’s discretion. 59 Leaving the EU: Preparations3 SEPTEMBER 2019 Leaving the EU: Preparations 60

Mark Pawsey (Rugby) (Con): Last week, I visited a Michael Gove: The right hon. Gentleman is absolutely logistics business in my constituency that sends parcels right that representatives of the freight industry have to the Republic of Ireland, and I heard about the asked us to accelerate preparations for no deal. That is concerns of its customers about the need for paperwork. something that I and my right hon. Friend the Secretary The business has offered to do it and charge for the time of State for Transport have done. On Friday, I had the spent—about 20 minutes per form—but I understand opportunity to visit Calais to talk to Ministers and the that many businesses simply will not bother, which will president of the regional assembly. They said that they lead to a loss of valuable export sales. Clearly, the best proposed to take a pragmatic approach to ensure the thing is to keep the existing arrangements, but what maximum flow,and we shall be revisiting those assumptions further advice can my right hon. Friend give to my in the light, not just of those talks, but of the other steps constituent and his customers? we are taking.

Michael Gove: My hon. Friend makes a very good John Stevenson (Carlisle) (Con): Farming and the point. There are some specific proposals that help to food and drinks manufacturing sector matter to the deal with parcels of a lower value and can facilitate economy of Carlisle and Cumbria. Clearly,future relations their flow across borders, but I suggest that his constituents with the EU will also be significant to those industries. contact gov.uk/brexit—the Government Digital Service Can the Minister confirm that he believes that adequate website—or, indeed, HMRC. If he would care to write preparations are being made for the eventuality of a no to me, I can ensure that all the facilitations and easements deal, to ensure that both those industries can function available are in place for his constituency’s firms and properly? employees. Michael Gove: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Mr (Exeter) (Lab): Why should anyone One of the sectors that we most need to help and believe Government claims that meaningful talks are support is of course the haulage sector—this follows on taking place in Brussels to avoid no deal when the rest from the question asked by the right hon. Member for of Europe flatly denies that and the Prime Minister’s Leeds Central (Hilary Benn)—and we are moving at own chief of staff has said that that claim is a deliberate pace to meet many of its concerns. However, as I have sham to run down the clock to a no-deal Brexit? said at the Dispatch Box today and previously, the sector that faces some of the biggest challenges in the Michael Gove: I have huge respect for the right hon. event of a no-deal exit is undoubtedly agriculture, and Gentleman, but if he were to look at the number of air within agriculture,undoubtedly upland farmers,particularly miles clocked up by my right hon. Friend the Brexit sheep farmers. The Department for Environment, Food Secretary and talk to those involved in the negotiations and Rural Affairs is working on steps to ensure that if, with the Brexit Secretary, the Prime Minister and the as we anticipate, a common external tariff is placed on Prime Minister’s official negotiator, David Frost, he sheepmeat exports, and therefore the price of sheepmeat would see that there has been intensive negotiation with falls, we can support hill farmers, who do so much for our EU partners. For example, the Prime Minister just our country by producing high-quality food and last week spent five days in France talking to not only safeguarding the environment we love. Emmanuel Macron but other European leaders to ensure that we can leave with a deal. Yvette Cooper (Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford) (Lab): I have been contacted by local manufacturers Andrew Bowie (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) and food producers who are deeply worried about no-deal (Con): As 36,000 delegates gather in Aberdeen to discuss tariffs. One, an exporter, says that the price of his and debate the future of the energy industry, can my exports to the EU will go up by 30%, and he called it right hon. Friend confirm that plans will be put in place “manufacturing suicide.” Another is an importer; the in the event of no deal to maintain our just-in-time price of his imports will go up by 50%. A third told me customs model, on which that industry and so many that they might have to close down altogether. Can the others in Scotland depend? Secretary of State confirm that all his preparations about public information and committees will not mitigate Michael Gove: My hon. Friend is a brilliant advocate the impact of those no-deal tariffs? What is the total for the oil and gas sector, which does so much to ensure cost to British industry of those no-deal tariffs? that the north-east of Scotland is an economic powerhouse. We are working intensively with those in the energy Michael Gove: The right hon. Lady makes a very fair sector and elsewhere to ensure that their business models point, actually. The single biggest challenge in a no-deal can be robust for the future. exit is of course the existence of those tariffs—a requirement of the European Union’ssingle market rules. The common Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab): It was reported external tariff, which I just alluded to, is particularly yesterday that analysis done for the Department for high when it comes to the agricultural sector, and Transport in the last fortnight says that in the worst therefore, when it comes to exporting food into the case, the average delay for lorries and freight at Dover European Union, that is a significant barrier. However, would be one and a half days, and in the best case, there the temporary tariff regime that we are consulting on would be a wait of two to three hours—either of which would ensure that in many cases tariffs were lower, to would cause chaos. Can the Secretary of State confirm help business and consumers. for the House that the Government have received that On the broader question about attempting to put a analysis? What has the freight industry had to say to figure on the specific costs, that cannot be done in him about it? It has been warning for some time that it isolation, although I appreciate the sincerity with which does not think the Government are prepared. the right hon. Lady asks that question. 61 Leaving the EU: Preparations3 SEPTEMBER 2019 Leaving the EU: Preparations 62

More broadly, I would welcome the opportunity to Mr Chris Leslie (Nottingham East) (IGC): The Minister talk to the right hon. Lady’s constituents about what we caused some concern at the weekend about whether the can do, because the Treasury is making money available Government would comply with legislation if it were for companies that are fundamentally viable but may passed and enacted. Can he, without dodging the question, face particular turbulence in the event of no deal, to confirm that if the law requires Her Majesty’sGovernment ensure their survival in the future. I would be more than to request an extension to article 50, they will comply happy to talk to her about that. with the law?

Mary Robinson (Cheadle) (Con): Thousands of people Michael Gove: The Government always comply with in the UK, and in my constituency, are dependent on the law. the chemical industry. Much of that, of course, has been previously governed by regulation in compliance Scott Mann (North Cornwall) (Con): Is the Minister with the EU. As we leave, what discussions has the confident that the integrity of our fishing waters can be Secretary of State had with those companies and with maintained and enforced regardless of our method of Europe about UK REACH and its implementation? leaving the European Union, and can he give Cornish fishermen an assurance on that point?

Michael Gove: My hon. Friend makes a very important Michael Gove: That is a very important point. Steps point. Those who work in the chemicals industry are have been taken, including working with the devolved absolutely vital to the health of our economy. Hitherto, Administrations, to make sure that we have strong the regulation of chemicals within the European Union maritime security and that the rights of our fishermen has been governed by the operation of the REACH can be respected. We want to work in a co-operative directive. We are replicating that in UK law and we have way with other European countries, and indeed with had extensive discussions and are putting in place steps countries outside the European Union such as Norway to ensure that the chemicals industry can continue to and the Faroes, to ensure that we can manage stocks manufacture and export as before. It is one of those sustainably and revive coastal communities. industries whose business model, as we leave the European Union, necessarily requires Government support to Ruth George (High Peak) (Lab): There have been ensure its continued health. reports in the newspapers that the reunification of families will cease if we leave the European Union without a Martin Whitfield (East Lothian) (Lab): Great mention deal. Will the Minister clarify the Government’s position has been made of the freight industry and the importance on that and confirm that all children who are stranded of guaranteeing the effective flow of goods across the without family in the UK will be able to apply as now, border. Can the Secretary of State explain what has under the Dublin agreement, to be reunited with their been done since February with regard to the ISPM— families? international standard for phytosanitary measures—on wood pallets? Two thirds of the pallets in this country Michael Gove: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for do not comply with European Union requirements. raising that question, and I am disturbed by reporting to that effect. The rights of EU citizens in this country, Michael Gove: The hon. Gentleman makes a very and of course their dependants, will be protected, but if important point about the nature of wood pallets, and she wants to furnish me with the report to which she we have been working with the industry to ensure that refers, I will look closely into it and, of course, write we can mitigate the consequences. to her. Alex Chalk (Cheltenham) (Con): It would be infinitely Luke Graham (Ochil and South Perthshire) (Con): preferable to secure a deal, which is why I and many Earlier today, the chairman of the British Medical hon. Members have voted three times to do exactly that. Association in Scotland went on record to say that there Can my right hon. Friend assure me that in any are shortages of medical supplies in Scotland due to circumstances the security of supply of medicines will Brexit. Can my right hon. Friend give assurances that be assured and that those medicines will be flown into that is not the case and that the Cabinet Office is the UK if necessary? engaging directly with the devolved Administration, local government and all Government bodies to ensure Michael Gove: My hon. Friend, as ever, makes two that no shortages are caused by Brexit? characteristically acute points. I voted for the withdrawal agreement on every opportunity presented to the House. Michael Gove: My hon. Friend makes a very important I had hoped that more colleagues on the Opposition point. To the anguish of many, but to the joy of some, Benches would have done so. I am grateful to those we have not actually left the European Union yet, so it colleagues on the Opposition Benches who have done is hard to see how any shortages could be caused by so, because it will be infinitely preferable if we leave Brexit. The Department of Health and Social Care and with a deal. However, my hon. Friend is also right that, others have worked to ensure that in the event of a as well as ensuring the freest possible flow of goods— no-deal Brexit we can continue to have all the medicines including medicines—over the short straits, there should and medical supplies that people need. I will look be additional capacity, both at sea and in the air, to closely at what the Scottish BMA has said and investigate safeguard citizens in this country. it, but sometimes—I am sure this is not the case with the Scottish BMA—one or two figures attribute to Brexit Dr Philippa Whitford (Central Ayrshire) (SNP): For responsibility for matters that are absolutely nothing to the last couple of years, along with the president of the do with our departure from the European Union. Royal College of Radiologists, I have been raising the 63 Leaving the EU: Preparations3 SEPTEMBER 2019 Leaving the EU: Preparations 64

[Dr Philippa Whitford] as stockpiling is not possible with such perishable produce. Will the Minister therefore accept that his statement on issue of radioisotopes. I was ignored and patronised, Sunday was inaccurate? and then reassured at the beginning of this year that it was all sorted and that they had been flown in. However, Michael Gove: I express my solidarity with the hon. on 23 July a new contract was put out to tender with a Gentleman. I, too, worked with fresh fruit and vegetables closing date last week, which means that it is not sorted when I was a food hall porter in the Aberdeen branch of at all. Could the Minister possibly explain what is going British Home Stores in the 1980s, so I absolutely appreciate to happen about radioisotopes on 1 November? how important it is to ensure we have a ready supply of fresh fruit of vegetables and a wide range of them. The Michael Gove: I would hope that no one would British Retail Consortium, with which I have worked, ignore or patronise the hon. Lady, who had a very has been working incredibly hard to make sure we have distinguished record as a physician even before she access to the full range of foods we currently enjoy. It is came into the House. She speaks with great authority the case that while the price of some commodities may on these issues. Unless I misunderstood it, her point rise, the price of other commodities may fall, but I am refers to the fact that the has absolutely certain that consumers will continue to have issued a new tender for sea freight. I understand that a wide choice of quality of fresh foodstuffs in the event that tender has been well subscribed, and we should of no-deal Brexit. have sea freight in place. We will also have air freight in place, as I mentioned in response to my hon. Friend the Bill Grant (Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock) (Con): I am Member for Cheltenham (Alex Chalk), to ensure that sure that my right hon. Friend will agree that business not just radioisotopes but all medical supplies necessary leaders and business associations will be listening intently for the effective functioning of the NHS across the to this afternoon’s debate. They have suffered three United Kingdom are available. I hope to stay in regular years of uncertainty, and endless and pointless Brexit touch with the hon. Lady, because her commitment to debate. What certainty and reassurance going forward the health of our NHS is second to none. can the Minister give to business leaders who have suffered uncertainty? Steve Brine (Winchester) (Con): I thank my right hon. Friend for making time to meet me during the Michael Gove: My hon. Friend is absolutely right that recess and for today’s statement. Returning to the issue business wants certainty. The best certainty we can give of medicine supply, one constituent wrote to me recently is to make sure we secure a good deal with the European asking about her epilepsy medication. She said, “If we Union, which is why I hope everyone across the House can’t get it easily, it will tip my life upside down.” She will give my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister the and I, as her MP, do not need ifs and buts or scare time and space necessary to secure that good deal on stories; we need hard facts. This is not a “nice to have which he has been working so hard. and we’ll do our best to have in the awful event of a no deal Brexit.”This is absolutely critical. Weneed categorical Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Ind): Further assurance from the Minister at the Dispatch Box that to the question we have just heard about food shortages, there will not be a shortage of medicine supply in on Sunday the Minister said that there will be no addition to the shortages there are at the moment—I shortages of fresh food. He has just told us that there know that as a former Minister in the Department of will be a wide choice. Does he accept what the British Health and Social Care—after Brexit. Retail Consortium said, which is that his initial claim was “categorically untrue” and that a no-deal Brexit would be Michael Gove: My hon. Friend was a brilliant Health Minister and he knows that medical supplies have been “the worst of all worlds for our high streets and those who shop termed as category 1 goods. As I mentioned earlier, as there”? well as making sure that we have the freest possible flow Michael Gove: The hon. Lady, like me, wants to avoid across the short straits, there is additional maritime a no-deal Brexit if at all possible. The British Retail freight capacity and air capacity to ensure that vital Consortium, supermarkets and others involved in providing drugs will be in place. I can therefore reassure him, his our food have been doing important work to make sure constituent and those living with epilepsy who need we continue to have a wide choice and a ready supply of that medicine that it will be there. the fresh food that we all enjoy.

Mr Paul Sweeney (Glasgow North East) (Lab/Co-op): Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con): Earlier Having previously worked as a supermarket fruit and in the year, when it appeared momentarily that we vegetable assistant, I know how perishable and fragile might leave without a deal, Mr Barnier announced that supply chains are. I was therefore surprised to hear the there would not, after all, be a hard border and that Minister say on Sunday that a no-deal Brexit would other arrangements would be relied upon. Where could cause no shortage of fresh food. Sure enough, soon he have possibly got that idea? afterwards the British Retail Consortium and the Northern Ireland Retail Consortium said that that, quite simply, Michael Gove: I think very possibly from some of the was not true. It said: wise and thoughtful speeches that have been made by “it is impossible to mitigate” my right hon. Friend. 65 3 SEPTEMBER 2019 Education Funding 66

Education Funding We will increase the level of support available to some of the most challenging schools that require improvement —those that have not been judged good by in 5.54 pm over a decade—by giving them more support from The Secretary of State for Education (Gavin Williamson): experienced school leaders so they can deliver for the With permission Mr Speaker, I am delighted to make a children that turn to them and expect the very best in statement today confirming the Prime Minister’s weekend their education. To ensure the extra funding for schools announcement. The Government have committed an delivers better outcomes and improves efficiency, we extra £14 billion to our schools across England over the will continue to expand the school resource management next three years, ensuring that funding for all schools programme, supporting schools in making every single can rise at least in line with inflation next year. I take pound count. We will also work closely with Ofsted and this opportunity to thank my predecessor, my right others to make sure that parents have the information they hon. Friend the Member for East Hampshire (Damian need about how schools are utilising their funding. Hinds), for all the groundwork he did ahead of this There are no great schools without great teachers and settlement. this settlement underlines our determination to recognise The funding announcement includes a cash increase, teaching as the high-value, prestigious profession that it compared with 2019-20, of £2.6 billion to core schools is. The £14 billion investment announced last week will funding next year, with increases of £4.8 billion and ensure that pay can be increased for all teachers. Subject £7.1 billion in 2021-22 and 2022-23. That is in addition to the school teachers’review body process, the investment to the £1.5 billion per year that we will continue to will make it possible to increase teachers starting salaries provide to fund additional pension costs for teachers by up to £6,000, with the aim of reaching a £30,000 over the next three years. The additional investment starting salary by 2022-23. This would make starting delivers on the Prime Minister’s pledge to ensure every salaries for teachers among the most competitive in the secondary school will be allocated at least £5,000 per graduate labour market. That sits alongside reforms to pupil next year and that every primary school will be ensure that our teachers have the highest-quality training, allocated at least £3,750, putting primary schools on the not only supporting those already in the profession but path to receiving at least £4,000 per pupil the following attracting even more brilliant graduates into the classroom year. to make a difference to children’s lives. We will make sure that teaching continues to be attractive throughout We are allocating funding so that every school’s per a teacher’s career, launching a group of ambassador pupil funding can rise at least in line with inflation and schools to champion flexible working and share good to accelerate gains for areas of the country that have practice. been historically underfunded, with most areas seeing A key element in supporting our teachers and leaders significant gains above inflation. We will ensure that all is to ensure that they have the tools and support to schools are allocated their gains under the formula in create safe and disciplined school environments. That is full next year by removing the cap on gains that why we have made £10 million available to establish underfunded schools have seen over the past two years. national behaviour hubs. The hubs programme will be This underpins our historic reforms to the overall schools led by Tom Bennett and will enable schools that have funding system, so that a child with the same needs already achieved an excellent behaviour culture to work benefits from the same funding, wherever they live in with other schools that have struggled to drive improvement. the country. In addition to that investment, we will consult on I can reaffirm our intention to move to a hard national revised behaviour and exclusions guidance to provide funding formula, where schools’ budgets are set on the clarity and consistency to headteachers on the action basis of a single national formula, as soon as possible. that they can take when pupils do not follow rules. It is We recognise that this will represent a significant change vital that we ensure that every child succeeds in their and we will work closely with local authorities, schools school environment and make sure that schools are a and others to make the transition as smooth as possible. safe place for pupils to study. We are determined that no pupil will be held back from We will also be investing an extra £400 million in reaching their full potential. This additional investment 16-to-19 education. This total includes £190 million to includes over £700 million to support children with raise the base rate of funding, from £4,000 at present to special educational needs and disabilities, so that they £4,188 next year.The additional investment is a 7% increase can access the education that is right for them and the in overall 16-to-19 funding. The total also includes education they need. That is an increase of over 11% on £120 million for colleges and school sixth forms so that the funding available this year. they can deliver crucial subjects, such as engineering, Since 2010, education standards in this country have that are so vital to our nation’s future. Colleges and further been transformed, but we are determined to go further education providers will receive an extra £25 million to still. On top of this funding investment, we have announced deliver T-levels and an extra £10 million through the a package of measures that will intensify our efforts to advanced maths premium. support all schools in delivering consistently high standards A new £20 million investment will also help the sector to every single pupil in this country. We will begin a to continue to recruit and retain brilliant teachers and consultation to lift the inspection exemption for outstanding leaders and provide more support to ensure high-quality schools, so that parents have up-to-date information teaching of T-levels. There will be £35 million more for and reassurance about the education in their child’s targeted interventions to support students on level 3— school. We will also provide additional funding to allow A-level equivalent—courses who failed their GCSE maths strong trusts to expand, building on the success and English. Together, this package will ensure that we of the academy programme as a powerful vehicle to are building the skills that our country needs to thrive in deliver excellence and school improvement in every school. the future. 67 Education Funding 3 SEPTEMBER 2019 Education Funding 68

[Gavin Williamson] us now that he will defend school support staff who do such a vital job? That is all the more important, given I am sure that many in the House will be eager to the work that they do with children with SEND. He has know what this announcement means for their local promised £700 million next year, but that is the shortfall area and constituents. When the information is ready, I that councils already face. The Local Government will write to Members with further details on the impact Association has put next year’s deficit at £1.2 billion, so on schools in their local areas. Now more than ever is will he tell us whether he accepts that estimate and the time to invest in the next generation. That is what whether there will be any further funding on top of that this party and this Government are doing, making sure amount in future years? that our children get the very best. I commend this The Government have finally admitted that there is a statement to the House. crisis in further education, but we know that the Education 6.4 pm Secretary came back from the Treasury with just half of what he thought was needed. Will he confirm that there (Ashton-under-Lyne) (Lab): Let me is less than £200 million for increasing the base rate, welcome the new Secretary of State to his place and little more than a real-terms freeze? Other funding is thank him for advance sight of the statement. Of course, ring-fenced for certain courses—will he tell us which we already had some advance sight of it thanks to the subjects and how that will be distributed? The Secretary norm now being that the press get the information of State has made welcome commitments on teachers’ before this House,but unfortunately today’sannouncements pension costs, but will those commitments extend to do not quite live up to their billing. The new Prime further and higher education? Is there any sign of an Minister said, “I will reverse the education cuts.”Judging increase in pay for further education staff, or will they from his performance today, he has a tendency to continue to fall behind teachers in schools? over-promise. Perhaps the Secretary of State can confirm just how Why was there not a single penny for adult education? much funding has been cut since 2010 and how many of The same goes for early years. The hourly rate for those cuts are left in place. As welcome as it is that the providers has not increased since 2017. funding Government have finally accepted the failures of austerity, has collapsed and the additional funding for maintained they will not fool anyone into thinking that it is over. As nursery schools runs out at the end of the next financial teachers and parents start term this week, too many will year. Will that be addressed tomorrow, or have the be in schools that are facing an immediate financial youngest children been forgotten? It is the same story crisis. Will he tell the House why there is nothing for this with this Prime Minister: empty promises, hollow words year and why next year’s funding falls a full £1 billion and numbers so dodgy he would probably put them on short of reversing the cuts to school budgets? Is it not the side of a bus. If he thinks he will fool anyone, he the case that this commitment will benefit the most better think again. affluent areas while disadvantaged schools get less? The Education Policy Institute found that a pupil eligible for Gavin Williamson: I thank the hon. Lady for such a meals would receive less than half the funding kind and warm welcome to me in my new role; it was of their affluent peers. How fair is that? How can the very generous of her. She raises a number of important Secretary of State start his tenure by refusing resources points. We are talking about cash and a total settlement— for those who need it most? Perhaps it is about starting including pensions— for schools that is worth £18.9 billion as they mean to go on—no more nice Conservatives, over three years. That does not even touch upon the but the same old nasty party, trying to hoodwink the Barnettconsequentialsforthedevolvednationsof Scotland, public. Wales and Northern Ireland. On teachers’ pay, I am glad that, after six years The issue of 16-to-19 education is one close to my running of missed recruitment targets, the Government heart, and the hon. Lady was right to highlight the fact have finally recognised the damage done by austerity, that we are delivering an extra half a billion pounds—the but the devil is in the detail. Will the Secretary of State £400 million plus £100 million to deal with pension assure us that this will not be funded by flattening or pressures. I think most people would welcome such an cutting the pay of more experienced teachers—the very announcement. She is right to highlight the important people, I am sure he will agree, we need to keep in the issue of children with special educational needs and classroom? Will he increase the teachers’ pay grant or making sure they get the right level of support and will schools have to fund it? Are academies still exempt everything they need in the classroom, which is why, in or does he now accept that national pay must apply to the next financial year, we will deliver more than £700 all schools? million extra for those children. Even Opposition Members Above all, will the Secretary of State reassure us that should recognise that is a significant increase, and those support staff will not pay the price? The leaked document increases will continue over the following three years. in the media was rather revealing. It admitted that “No 10 and…the Treasury… have been keen to…express concerns We have set out a three-year settlement for schools to about the rising number” give them the confidence to plan for and invest in their of teaching assistants. Let me say that I join parents, future. The hon. Lady raises the important issue of teachers, heads and those who care for our children teaching assistants. I absolutely agree with her: they are with special educational needs and disabilities—I, too, incredibly important. My wife, who is a teaching assistant, value teaching assistants—and I declare a direct interest tells me repeatedly how important they are, and I would because my son started a mainstream secondary school never disagree with my wife. today. With the help of valued teaching assistants, he was able to do that. The question is: do the Government Lucy Powell (Manchester Central) (Lab/Co-op): Give value them, too? Will the Education Secretary promise her a pay rise, then. 69 Education Funding 3 SEPTEMBER 2019 Education Funding 70

Gavin Williamson: I might have to declare an interest. positive, far more could be done. In Scotland, the I have seen the impact that teaching assistants have starting salary for teachers is already £26,700, rising to had on so many children’s lives. We all know that £32,000 after one year, which is £7,000 more than for teachers can transform what a child can achieve in a their counterparts in England. When will the Secretary classroom, and teaching assistants are an important of State match that level of funding? Moreover, rather part of that. I hoped the hon. Member for Ashton-under- than in 2022-23, will he give teachers in England the Lyne (Angela Rayner) would welcome the new £30,000 uplift they deserve now? starting salary for those coming into teaching. It is an Academies in England are not bound by nationally important and bold move that shows the value we put agreed pay scales, and teachers are often paid at far on the teaching profession, as we value all those who lower levels, so will the Secretary of State now ensure teach—not just those just joining the profession, but that academy teachers in England are paid at the nationally those who have been in it for many years, which is why negotiated pay levels, at a bare minimum? While increased in my statement I made it clear that part of that money primary funding is welcome—it is rising to £4,000, I was to ensure they benefit from pay rises as well. As the think—it is still £1,000 less than the average funding in hon. Lady will know, 85% of the spend of a school is on Scotland. It is simply not good enough. Scotland has its workforce, which is why we have ensured such an the highest rates of positive destinations for young important and large financial settlement over the next people anywhere in the UK—a sign of the success of three years. Scottish education. Will the Secretary of State commit Let us look at what the Opposition have done. They to looking at good practice in Scotland? have opposed every reform that has driven up standards, Finally, the impact of a no-deal exit on schools cannot driven up attainment, driven up the life chances of be underestimated. The leaked document from the children in this country. What will they do in the future? in August outlined that rising They will oppose every reform and change that we food costs could mean free school meals costing £40 million introduce to drive up the life chances of children in this to £85 million more than at present. Will the Secretary country. Even when we bring forward the largest funding of State detail the contingency planning he has done to announcement for schools in a generation, they do not ensure that schools can provide free school meals? have the good grace to welcome it. Gavin Williamson: I thank the hon. Lady for her Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): I strongly welcome characteristically warm welcome to me at the Dispatch this spending settlement. We should celebrate it, not Box. A lot of people in Scotland will be very interested denigrate it. It is incredibly important. The Education to know whether the £1.9 billion extra that the Scottish Committee did some work on school funding. My right Government will get will go directly to schools, or hon. Friend mentioned the excellent three-year funding whether it will go to more pet projects of the SNP. settlement. The Department of Health and Social Care Teachers and parents will be fascinated to know whether has a 10-year strategic plan. Does he not agree that, as the SNP will guarantee that. we suggested in our report, there should be a 10-year strategic plan for education to give further stability to Several hon. Members rose— the education system? Will he also please support more Mr Speaker: Order. A considerable number of right funding for apprenticeships for people from disadvantaged hon. and hon. Members are seeking to catch my eye, backgrounds? but I point out to the House that there is important Gavin Williamson: My right hon. Friend makes a business of various kinds to follow erelong, and there is, very important point—the Education Committee’s report as a result, a premium on brevity from Back and Front was an important reference point for me when I came Benchers alike. Moreover, unusually, I cannot guarantee into this role—and is right that setting out as long a that everybody who wishes to take part in the statement term education strategy as possible gives the best chance will be able to do so. for everyone in the education sector to plan in the best Sir (Bexleyheath and Crayford) (Con): possible way. That is why I was so keen to land a I warmly welcome my right hon. Friend’s statement on three-year funding deal. We will certainly strive to give education funding. It is really good news. We must as much certainty as possible. He also raises the important ensure that our young people have the skills they need point of apprenticeships, especially for those from the to succeed in our modern economy. Does he agree that most disadvantaged backgrounds. We need to see what investing in further education is the best way to achieve more we can do to encourage those from the most this? disadvantaged backgrounds to take up this brilliant route into work and success, and I look forward to Gavin Williamson: My right hon. Friend is absolutely meeting him to discuss in greater detail how we can right. It is a critical point and the reason we were so achieve this as swiftly as possible. keen to secure such a significant increase in funding for the 16-to-19 sector. The FE sector provides us with Carol Monaghan (Glasgow North West) (SNP): While many opportunities to look at how we can invest more, I welcome the Secretary of State to his new position, I create more opportunities for young people and ensure find it extraordinary that he is standing at the Dispatch that people understand that pursuing a vocational career Box as Secretary of State once again. is just as important as pursuing academic interests. The announcement of any additional funding for schools is welcome, but there has to be more clarity and Layla Moran (Oxford West and Abingdon) (LD): detail about the money. Teachers in England have been The Institute for Fiscal Studies has described the Education undervalued and underpaid for far too long, and while Secretary‘s figure of £14 billion extra for schools as the Government’s announcement on teachers’ pay is “somewhere between meaningless and misleading.” 71 Education Funding 3 SEPTEMBER 2019 Education Funding 72

[Layla Moran] need for extra funds? Will he confirm that in areas such as mine where substantial development is taking place, It calculates that the real-terms increase will be more these funds will allow pupils who are moving into the like £4.3 billion by 2022-3. That is just enough to constituency to enjoy a good education? reverse the cuts that have been made since 2015, so eight years later schools will, in essence, receive nothing. Gavin Williamson: An important element of the funding Given the importance of numeracy to the national settlement that we have agreed with the Treasury is a curriculum, does the Secretary of State regret not doing recognition of demographic change that different parts his sums properly? of the country are experiencing, so that we can ensure that enough school places are provided. More than 1 million places have been created in the last nine years, Gavin Williamson: I know that the hon. Lady has and there is no doubt that more will be needed in the long campaigned in the f40 group for changes in school future. funding, and I thought that my statement might give her an opportunity to welcome the changes that we Several hon. Members rose— have implemented, which will benefit her constituents so much. We have been very clear about the amount of Mr Speaker: The hon. Member for Manchester Central money that we are providing: a total of £18.9 billion for (Lucy Powell) is invariably the winner of the “biggest schools, of which £4.5 billion will cover pension costs, smile” competition. with the additional half a billion pounds going to 16-to-19 education. We will of course work closely with Lucy Powell: I do try, Mr Speaker. the Institute for Fiscal Studies in explaining our figures. I welcome the Secretary of State to his post. We in the Education Committee look forward to giving him a Mr William Wragg (Hazel Grove) (Con): Extra money good grilling, hopefully fairly soon. I also welcome his for our schools would ordinarily be welcomed, but I announcement, which is long overdue, but may I ask suppose we are in quite unusual times. him about the crucial early years and, in particular, about our maintained nursery schools, about which he I welcome my right hon. Friend to his post and thank has said nothing? Their funds will run out very soon, him for his announcement on behalf of the schools in but they are the jewel in the crown of social mobility, , but may I ask him a slightly technical question? and the amount that they need is a tiny fraction of what Would he consider increasing the minimum per pupil he has announced today. funding block as a proportion of the national funding formula? Gavin Williamson: I thank the hon. Lady for her kind words. She has raised an important point. I took the Gavin Williamson: We always keep that issue under opportunity to visit a maintained nursery school in review, and I will come back to my hon. Friend when we Sheffield to gain a proper understanding of the value have made further decisions on it. Let me take this that those schools bring and their impact on children in opportunity to thank him for being such a doughty the early years. Obviously, my statement concerned campaigner for the schools in his constituency, fighting school funding for 16 to 19-year-olds, but we constantly to ensure that they receive extra funds and continue the keep that issue under review, and I am examining it brilliant work that they are doing. very closely. Sarah Newton (Truro and Falmouth) (Con): I welcome Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/ the investment and the package to support schools and Co-op): We need to beware the smoke and mirrors. further education colleges in Cornwall, but how much There has been an 8% cut in per pupil funding, and it will each of our schools and colleges receive over the will take a while for an inflation-linked increase year on next three years? The three-year multi-year settlement is year to catch up with that. The Secretary of State said very important. that Ofsted might have a role in looking into how schools spent the money. Is he giving Ofsted new powers Gavin Williamson: I know that my hon. Friend has and new funding to enable it to investigate the way in been a doughty campaigner for schools and further which schools spend their funds, which is currently not education colleges in her constituency. One of the first its responsibility? pieces of correspondence I received was from her, demanding more for Cornwall, as we would expect of Gavin Williamson: We will update the House in due her. I shall write to the Members of Parliament who are course on how we will work with Ofsted in that regard, affected, including my hon. Friend, and explain in but I think that one of our most important reforms has detail the impact on the funding settlement in October, been ensuring that Ofsted can inspect outstanding schools, when we have finalised the figures. We received the because I had picked up some concern among unions, broad settlement from the Treasury only last week. parents and teachers about the fact that a number of Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab): The £200 uplift in schools had not been inspected for a long time. 16-to-18 funding is welcome—but it is only a start; it is for only one year; and it falls short of the £760 per Mr John Whittingdale (Maldon) (Con): Is my right student for which Raise the Rate campaigners asked. hon. Friend aware that many good schools, such as Will the Secretary of State take an early opportunity to William de Ferrers School in my constituency, had put that right? made heroic efforts to find savings in recent years, to eliminate budget deficits, and were now, very reluctantly, Gavin Williamson: This is a 4.7% increase. I know having to consider increasing class sizes and dropping that the hon. Gentleman is a distinguished lecturer, and subjects? May I therefore thank him for recognising the that he inspired many pupils in the course of his career 73 Education Funding 3 SEPTEMBER 2019 Education Funding 74 before entering the House. I look forward to discussing forced to home-educate their children because they with him how we make the best possible investment to cannot find school places for them. What measures will deliver the best possible outcomes for all those children the Secretary of State attach to this funding to ensure in further education. that there are enough specialist places and enough support in mainstream education to keep children with (Kenilworth and Southam) (Con): special educational needs in schools? The Secretary of State’s announcement of additional funds is very welcome, but as governors and head Gavin Williamson: It is always vitally important that teachers need to plan in advance does he agree that we do everything we can to support children with what he said about the predictability and understandability special educational needs in mainstream schools, but I of the funding system is almost as significant? Will he would point out that the numbers of exclusions from ensure that as the system is designed in detail he keeps schools are lower today than they were when there was an eye on ensuring that it stays so? last a Labour Government.

Gavin Williamson: My right hon. and learned Friend Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con): May I begin makes an important point. I know that he represents a by congratulating Goole academy on going from being county that has historically faced funding challenges in special measures a few years ago to this year achieving and that he has always campaigned for them to be the best results ever in the school’s history? addressed, and I am pleased to be able to do that. I will take his words very much to heart and ensure that we I know from my time in the classroom that no teacher retain clarity and simplicity, as well as always ensuring likes to see a child excluded, but on some occasions it is that schools have a view as long-term as the funds that appropriate, for the child and the wellbeing of other they will be receiving. pupils, for children not to be in classroom. Will the Secretary of State therefore turn his attention to ensuring Stephanie Peacock (Barnsley East) (Lab): Wein Barnsley we have better and proper alternative provision for have lost nearly a third of our teaching assistants and children who cannot be dealt with in mainstream school? school support staff. As a former teacher, I am aware of the vital job that they do, but the Secretary of State did Gavin Williamson: I join my hon. Friend in congratulating not mention them once in his statement, and, despite Goole college on the turnaround it has been able to his warm words in answer to my hon. Friend the Member achieve. I know my hon. Friend has a lot of experience for Ashton-under-Lyne (Angela Rayner), we have still in this field, having taught for many years himself, and I not been given any firm commitments. Will he rule out will take on board his point, because it is absolutely funding his plans by cutting school support staff further? vital that we ensure that every child in school is able to get the type of education that we want them to get and Gavin Williamson: We are giving schools the largest not be disrupted by others, so ensuring we have the funding package in a generation. I know how much all right provision for those children to go to is vital. schools value the amazing work that teaching assistants do every single day throughout the year. They have Karin Smyth (Bristol South) (Lab): The question is always made that a key part of their investment, and I whether parents have the information they need for am sure that they will continue to do so. However, as the utilising school funding. In Bristol South, as few as a hon. Lady may know, I do not determine staffing levels, quarter of primary schools and no secondary schools how schools spend their money, or on which staff they will receive any of this money, so what is the Secretary spend that money. of State’s message to the other 75% of schools and their parents? Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con): I welcome the additional school funding announced by my right hon. Friends the Gavin Williamson: I can assure the hon. Lady that Prime Minister and the Education Secretary, which will provision has been made for local authorities to deliver benefit 17 schools in Crawley, but will my right hon. more money for every school in England. Friend say a little more about support for children with special educational needs? Neil O’Brien (Harborough) (Con): I warmly welcome Gavin Williamson: I know that my hon. Friend has this huge investment and the decisive action to undo the been campaigning with many other colleagues who historically unfair underfunding of areas such as have been affected by historic lower levels of school Leicestershire, but if we are to have a hard formula will funding in certain counties, and the result of his my right hon. Friend look closely at the position of campaigning is the settlement that we have announced small schools, on which I led a debate before the summer? today. Special educational needs are a vital issue for Will he look at the lump sum so we that can have not every school in every part of the country, and it is vital just more funding for our schools but support for small for us to ensure that the level of funding is right. The schools, too? £700 million that will be provided in the first year will have a direct impact in ensuring that those children have Gavin Williamson: Having had the great opportunity the level of provision and support that is required. to visit Beauchamp college and Saint George’s primary school in my hon. Friend’s constituency, I know that Louise Haigh (Sheffield, Heeley) (Lab): Some of the they have been delivering the very best education for the consequences of the chronic underfunding of special children in Leicestershire, but it is also important to educational needs have been a huge rise in the number recognise the challenge that small schools face, and we of exclusions and an increase in the number of parents keep that constantly under review. 75 Education Funding 3 SEPTEMBER 2019 76

Paul Farrelly (Newcastle-under-Lyme) (Lab): Special European Union (Withdrawal) needs education is, we know, in crisis across the country, but in the county the right hon. Gentleman and I Application for emergency debate (Standing Order share—Staffordshire—there are woeful discrepancies No. 24) between different areas. In the last academic year, no education, health and care plan was completed within Mr Speaker: I now call the right hon. Member for the statutory time limit in Newcastle-under-Lyme and West Dorset (Sir ) to make an application Staffordshire Moorlands, compared with 75% elsewhere, for leave to propose a debate on a specific and important while in the Secretary of State’s own area the proportion matter that should have urgent consideration under the was only 24%. When is he going to step in and act in the terms of Standing Order No. 24. He has up to three minutes interests of children with special needs in our county? in which to make his application.

Gavin Williamson: What we always take with great Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): On a point seriousness is how we can enhance and support all those of order, Mr Speaker. with special educational needs. I am looking at this very closely, along with my hon. Friend the Member for Mr Speaker: Order. Saffron Walden (Mrs Badenoch), the Minister for children, to ensure that children who have that need for support Mr Bone rose— get it as swiftly as possible, and that is why we are delivering an extra £700 million in the next financial Mr Speaker: Resume your seat. year. Mr Bone: It is about democracy. Steve Double (St Austell and Newquay) (Con): As a member of the f40 campaign, may I warmly welcome Mr Speaker: Resume your seat. I do not require any the Secretary of State’s announcement today, and lectures in democracy from the hon. Gentleman; I will particularly the extra funding for further education? In advise him of precisely what the position is, and it St Austell, we face particular challenges in maintaining will brook of no contradiction. A-level provision, so will the Secretary of State or the First, the hon. Gentleman was rather laggardly and appropriate Minister meet me to see how this extra slow in rising when I had already called the right hon. money can be used to secure A-level provision? Member for West Dorset—untypically so, I readily acknowledge. Gavin Williamson: My hon. Friend has long campaigned Secondly, I say to the hon. Gentleman, in terms of for a better and fairer funding settlement for Cornwall, crystal clarity, that if he wishes to raise a point of order and it is a great pleasure to be able to deliver that. I he will of course have an opportunity to do so; I challenge would be delighted to meet him and his colleagues in him to identify any occasion upon which I have sought Cornwall regarding how best we can improve A-level to deny him, and I do not do so. I am simply saying that provision in Cornwall. I will take the application first. There is subsequently a ten-minute rule motion before we proceed to any debate, Sarah Jones (Croydon Central) (Lab): We have seen if there be such. The hon. Gentleman is never knowingly a 53% increase in school exclusions over the last few understated or not heard when he wishes to be; I will years—a 53% increase—and half of all those children hear him. Patience, sir; it will be rewarded. I call have special educational needs and are not getting the Sir Oliver Letwin. support. The anger about that is a sign of distress. How on earth is a renewed emphasis on exclusion going to help those children when we need more money spent on 6.36 pm special educational needs? Sir Oliver Letwin (West Dorset) (Con): Thank you, Mr Speaker. I can be brief; in the light of the Government’s Gavin Williamson: It is absolutely vital to ensure decision to prorogue Parliament next week it has become proper discipline in every single school, but it is also an urgent matter for Parliament, and particularly this vitally important that those children who need the most House, to discuss whether it can accept a no-deal exit. I support have that provided either within their school therefore ask you to grant an urgent debate under setting or, if they are excluded, by ensuring proper Standing Order No. 24. provision is provided for them outside. Mr Speaker: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for his application, which is not entirely a matter of surprise either to Members of the House or large numbers of people outside it. I have heard what he said; I am familiar with his rationale; and I am satisfied that the matter is proper to be discussed under the terms of Standing Order No. 24. Does the right hon. Gentleman have the leave of the House? Application agreed to.

Mr Speaker: The right hon. Gentleman clearly enjoys the support of the House. I will go further; I will be my normal generous self to the hon. Member for Wellingborough (Mr Bone) in advertising for those who 77 European Union (Withdrawal) 3 SEPTEMBER 2019 78 did not hear it that he was robustly objecting, which he Clean Air is absolutely entitled to do. People need be in no doubt that there was an objection. In these circumstances, it is Motion for leave to bring in a Bill (Standing Order necessary for at least 40 Members to rise in their places No. 23) to support the application. There is a very much larger number than 40 Members rising in support, so the right 6.41 pm hon. Member for West Dorset (Sir Oliver Letwin) has obtained the leave of the House. (Croydon South) (Con): I beg to move, That leave be given to bring in a Bill to make provision about The debate will be held today as the first item of mitigating air pollution, including through the use of low emission public business. It will last for up to three hours—that is zones; to prohibit vehicle idling; to restrict the approval and sale to say, if it starts before seven o’clock—and it will arise of vehicles with certain engine types; to require local authorities on a motion that the House has considered the specified to undertake tree-planting and to take steps to promote the use of matter set out in the application by the right hon. electric propulsion systems in buses and taxis; and for connected Gentleman. purposes. We now come to the ten-minute rule motion. The story of—[Interruption.] [Interruption.] The hon. Member for Wellingborough is gesticulating—I will not even say chuntering—in a Mr Speaker: Order. This is most unfair on the hon. mildly eccentric manner from a sedentary position, and Gentleman, who is raising an important matter. May I I am all agog to learn more of what he wishes to raise in please appeal to right hon. and hon. Members who are his point of order. not as keenly attentive to the contents of the ten-minute rule motion as I would like to be to continue their Mr Bone: On a point of order, Mr Speaker. It was conversations outside the Chamber? It is only fair that really just a procedural point, and I draw your attention the hon. Gentleman, who has booked his slot, should to Standing Order No. 24 on page 33 of the Standing be heard in speaking up for his cause and his constituents. Orders. When a Standing Order No. 24 application is notified on a Tuesday, this has to be done by 10.30 in Chris Philp: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I am delighted the morning. I inquired in the Vote Office after 10.30 this to see so many colleagues attending to hear this ten-minute morning and was told that no Standing Order No. 24 rule motion this afternoon. I always knew that clean air application had yet been made, although they were was a topic that would command widespread interest expecting one. So it seemed to me that in those across the House. circumstances, this application could not be heard today The story of Ella Kissi-Debrah is a tragic one. Ella and that it should have been heard tomorrow. That was lived near Lewisham, just 80 feet from the north circular, why I was trying to make my point so early on, so that one of south London’s most congested highways. As a we did not have to go through with it. That seems very south London MP,I can testify to the notorious congestion clear. and pollution on that road. Ella tragically died of asthma and acute respiratory failure in 2013 after experiencing Mr Speaker: I understand the hon. Gentleman’srationale, three years of seizures. Her mother Rosamund believes and I thank him for explaining his agitation to raise his that pollution caused her daughter’s death. Earlier this point at an early stage. However, I must advise him—I year, the Attorney General and the High Court gave must admit I thought he would have known this, because permission for a new inquest to formally investigate the he is a keen partisan of parliamentary opportunities for link between pollution and Ella’s death. Of course we Back Benchers—that the responsibility of a Member cannot generalise from one case, but the evidence suggests seeking to make such an application is to lodge that that Ella’s mum is right about the serious health risks of application with the Speaker. I can advise the hon. air pollution, especially nitrous oxides and particulate Gentleman that the application was lodged with me and matter. my office yesterday evening, so it was well in time. Moreover, I hope that I carry the House with me in In 2016, a report by the Royal College of Physicians observing that, whatever people think of the right hon. found that air pollution cuts short an estimated 40,000 lives Member for West Dorset (Sir Oliver Letwin), his courtesy a year in the UK, and that the young, the old and those is unsurpassed by any other Member of this House, and with medical conditions are most at risk. Evidence to a it was partly on account of that courtesy and because joint Select Committee in 2018 said that air pollution he wanted his intentions to be entirely intelligible that was the second-largest cause of avoidable death after he was keen that his motion, if judged orderly, should smoking. The Committee also found that health impacts be published as early as possible. It was published some ranged from causing premature births to respiratory hours ago. So the hon. Member for Wellingborough has and heart disease and dementia. My own twins were had a good try, but I think that his efforts on this born very prematurely at 25 weeks, and reading that occasion on that point have been exhausted. I would Select Committee report, I wondered whether air pollution suggest that the courteous thing to do now would be to in London had contributed to their extreme prematurity. proceed with the ten-minute rule motion, for which the The joint Select Committee’s report findings are hon. Member for Croydon South (Chris Philp) has been corroborated by academic studies,including those published patiently waiting. in The New England Journal of Medicine. Much progress has been made since 1970, and nitrous oxide and particulate pollution has reduced by about 70%, but the truth is that we must do much more. The Government’s clean air strategy, published in January this year, recognises that. In particular, it recognises the importance of the World Health Organisation limit of 79 Clean Air 3 SEPTEMBER 2019 Clean Air 80

[Chris Philp] 18% of new car sales in 2001 to a peak of 50% in 2015. This is especially problematic because the real-world 10 micrograms per cubic metre for PM 2.5 particulates, emissions of diesel cars are six times higher than the which is much lower than the EU limit of 25 micrograms emissions made in laboratory conditions. The Volkswagen per cubic metre, but it is an inescapable fact that pollution scandal underscored the problems, when Volkswagen levels in the UK are too high. As a south London MP, I intentionally cheated the emissions testing regime. It is see that in my own constituency. The A23, which runs vital that we hold manufacturers such as Volkswagen to through Croydon and includes the Purley Way, is much account for the damage they have done to our clean air. too polluted, and I am sure many colleagues around the Buses and taxis should be a particular focus, because House, particularly those from urban areas, have similar they are often regulated or operated by local authorities. problems in their own constituencies. In London, only 155 buses out of 9,000 are fully electric, The Government’s clean air strategy has many whereas in China, every single one of the 16,000 buses commendable ideas to address this, including action to in the city of Shenzhen is electric. Even Santiago in fund electric vehicle charging roll-out and measures to Chile has more than twice the number of electric buses prohibit the most polluting wood-burning stoves. I see that London does. I would like to see all our buses and that the Minister of State, Department for Transport, taxis electrically operated. If we do that, it will cut my hon. Friend the Member for Mid (George London’s transport emissions by 20%. Freeman) is in his place. However, the clean air strategy There is a great deal more that a Clean Air Act could needs to be put on a statutory footing, and this Parliament do, and it is of vital importance to our nation’s health needs to follow previous in passing a Clean that we have such an Act. If by some great misfortune Air Act, as we did to great effect in 1956, 1968 and 1993. this private Member’s Bill does not reach the statute We also need to go much further than the measures book in the three or four days between now and proposed in the clean air strategy. For example, we Prorogation—extraordinary though that sounds—I very should be looking at vehicle idling where cars are left much hope that a Clean Air Act will feature in a future stationary with their engines running. The sight of cars Queen’s Speech. parked with their engines running outside schools is a There are many issues that divide this House. I expect sight that every parent, including me, finds very worrying. that we will hear a great deal of discord and disagreement Efforts to stop this on a voluntary basis have not in the coming hours and days, in which I may well worked, and I think that fines similar to parking tickets participate, but on this issue of clean air I hope that this will be more effective at stopping this behaviour. Trees House may speak as one. I commend the Bill to the absorb huge amounts of pollution, so planting more House. trees in urban areas will help. Specifically, moss walls had been found to be particularly effective in absorbing Question put and agreed to. airborne heavy metals, with each section absorbing Ordered, emissions equivalent to 42 diesel cars per month. That Chris Philp,James Gray,Gillian Keegan, Mrs Maria Speaking of diesel cars, they play an especially damaging Miller, Sir Henry Bellingham, Sarah Newton, Ms Harriet role in air pollution. Governments of both colours and Harman, Ellie Reeves, Mr Steve Reed, Sir Edward the European Union encouraged diesel cars over the Davey, Douglas Chapman and Jim Shannon present last 20 or 30 years because of their lower CO2 emissions, the Bill. but they emit far more particulates and nitrous oxide emissions than petrol cars, which hugely damages air Chris Philp accordingly presented the Bill. quality on the streets where those cars are driven. It is Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on worrying that sales of new diesel cars went up from Wednesday 4 September, and to be printed (Bill 432). 81 3 SEPTEMBER 2019 European Union (Withdrawal) 82

European Union (Withdrawal) (5) (a) On the conclusion of proceedings in Committee of the whole House, the Chairman shall report the Bill to the House Emergency debate (Standing Order No. 24) without putting any Question. (b) If the Bill is reported with amendments, the House Mr Speaker: I remind the House—it is a case of shall proceed to consider the Bill as amended without reminding as reference was made to this matter only a any Question being put. few moments ago—that a paper with the terms of the (6) For the purpose of bringing any proceedings to a motion has been distributed. conclusion in accordance with paragraph (3), the Chairman or Speaker shall forthwith put the following Questions in the same 6.51 pm order as they would fall to be put if this Order did not apply— Sir Oliver Letwin (West Dorset) (Con): I beg to move, (a) any Question already proposed from the Chair; That this House has considered the matter of the need to take (b) any Question necessary to bring to a decision a Question all necessary steps to ensure that the United Kingdom does not so proposed; leave the European Union on 31 October 2019 without a (c) the Question on any amendment, new clause or new withdrawal agreement and accordingly makes provision as set schedule selected by the Chairman or Speaker for out in this order: separate decision; (1) On Wednesday 4 September 2019 (d) the Question on any amendment moved or Motion (a) Standing Order No. 14(1) (which provides that made by a designated Member; government business shall have precedence at every (e) any other Question necessary for the disposal of the sitting save as provided in that order) shall not apply; business to be concluded; and shall not put any other (b) any proceedings governed by this order may be Questions, other than the Question on any motion proceeded with until any hour, though opposed, and described in paragraph (16) of this Order. shall not be interrupted; (7) On a Motion made for a new Clause or a new Schedule, the (c) the Speaker may not propose the question on the Chairman or Speaker shall put only the Question that the Clause previous question, and may not put any question or Schedule be added to the Bill. under Standing Order No. 36 (Closure of debate) or Consideration of Lords Amendments and Messages on a subsequent Standing Order No. 163 (Motion to sit in private); day (d) at 3.00 pm, the Speaker shall interrupt any business (8) If any message on the Bill (other than a message that the prior to the business governed by this order and call a House of Lords agrees with the Bill without amendment or agrees Member to present the European Union (Withdrawal) with any message from this House) is expected from the House (No. 6) Bill of which notice of presentation has been of Lords on any future sitting day, the House shall not adjourn given and immediately thereafter (notwithstanding until that message has been received and any proceedings under the practice of the House) call a Member to move the paragraph (10) have been concluded. motion that the European Union (Withdrawal) (No. 6) Bill be now read a second time as if it were an order of (9) On any day on which such a message is received, if a the House; designated Member indicates to the Speaker an intention to proceed to consider that message— (e) in respect of that Bill, notices of Amendments, new Clauses and new Schedules to be moved in Committee (a) notwithstanding Standing Order No. 14(1) (which provides may be accepted by the Clerks at the Table before the that government business shall have precedence at Bill has been read a second time. every sitting save as provided in that order), any (f) any proceedings interrupted or superseded by this Lords Amendments to the Bill or any further Message order may be resumed or (as the case may be) entered from the Lords on the Bill may be considered forthwith upon and proceeded with after the moment of without any Question being put; and any proceedings interruption. interrupted for that purpose shall be suspended accordingly; (2) The provisions of paragraphs (3) to (18) of this order shall (b) proceedings on consideration of Lords Amendments apply to and in connection with the proceedings on the European or on any further Message from the Lords shall (so Union (Withdrawal) (No. 6) Bill in the present Session of far as not previously concluded) be brought to a Parliament. conclusion one hour after their commencement; and Timetable for the Bill on Wednesday 4 September 2019 any proceedings suspended under subparagraph (a) (3) (a) Proceedings on Second Reading and in Committee of shall thereupon be resumed; the whole House, any proceedings on Consideration and (c) the Speaker may not propose the question on the proceedings up to and including Third Reading shall be taken at previous question, and may not put any question the sitting on Wednesday 4 September 2019 in accordance with under Standing Order No. 36 (Closure of debate) or this Order. Standing Order No. 163 (Motion to sit in private) in (b) Proceedings on Second Reading shall be brought to a the course of those proceedings. conclusion (so far as not previously concluded) at (10) If such a message is received on or before the 5.00 pm. commencement of public business on Monday 9 September and (c) Proceedings in Committee of the whole House, any a designated Member indicates to the Speaker an intention to proceedings on Consideration and proceedings up to proceed to consider that message, that message shall be and including Third Reading shall be brought to a considered before any order of the day or notice of motion which conclusion (so far as not previously concluded) at stands on the Order Paper. 7.00 pm. (11) Paragraphs (2) to (7) of Standing Order No. 83F Timing of proceedings and Questions to be put on Wednesday (Programme orders: conclusion of proceedings on consideration 4 September 2019 of Lords amendments) apply for the purposes of bringing any (4) When the Bill has been read a second time: proceedings on consideration of Lords Amendments to a conclusion as if: (a) it shall, notwithstanding Standing Order No. 63 (Committal of bills not subject to a programme (a) any reference to a Minister of the Crown were a order), stand committed to a Committee of the reference to a designated Member; whole House without any Question being put; (b) after paragraph (4)(a) there is inserted – (b) the Speaker shall leave the Chair whether or not notice “(aa) the question on any amendment or motion of an Instruction has been given. selected by the Speaker for separate decision;”. 83 3 SEPTEMBER 2019 European Union (Withdrawal) 84

(12) Paragraphs (2) to (5) of Standing Order No. 83G (a) the Member in charge of the Bill in the present Session (Programme orders: conclusion of proceedings on further of Parliament; and messages from the Lords) apply for the purposes of bringing any (b) any other Member backing the Bill in the present proceedings on consideration of a Lords Message to a Session of Parliament and acting on behalf of that conclusion as if: Member. (a) any reference to a Minister of the Crown were a reference to a designated Member; (25) This order shall be a Standing Order of the House. (b) in paragraph (5), the words “subject to paragraphs (6) This Motion arises because of four facts. The first and (7)” were omitted. fact is that, over the past six weeks, the Government Reasons Committee have not produced a single indication of any viable (13) Paragraphs (2) to (6) of Standing Order No. 83H proposal to replace the backstop by any alternative (Programme orders: reasons committee) apply in relation to any likely to prove acceptable to the EU. The likelihood of committee to be appointed to draw up reasons after proceedings the Government reaching a deal at the European Council have been brought to a conclusion in accordance with this Order meeting on 17 and 18 October on the terms that the as if any reference to a Minister of the Crown were a reference to Government themselves have set is accordingly slight. a designated Member. The second fact is that this is the last week in which Miscellaneous Parliament will have the ability to block a no-deal exit (14) Standing Order No. 82 (Business Committee) shall not on 31 October, because the Government are proroguing apply in relation to any proceedings on the Bill to which this us until 14 October, and they have made it clear that Order applies. they will fight in the courts any legislation proposed (15) No Motion shall be made, except by a designated and passed to mandate an extension of the article 50 Member, to alter the order in which any proceedings on the Bill are taken, to recommit the Bill or to vary or supplement the process. There will not be time after 14 October for provisions of this Order. Parliament both to legislate and for that legislation to (16) (a) No dilatory Motion shall be made in relation to be enforced on a reluctant Government through the proceedings on the Bill to which this Order applies except by a courts. designated Member. The third fact is that, in the absence of a deal with the (b) The Question on any such Motion shall be put forthwith. EU on the terms that the Government themselves have (17) Proceedings to which this Order applies shall not be set and in the absence of an order from the Supreme interrupted under any Standing Order relating to the sittings of Court that the Government should apply to extend the the House. article 50 period, the Government will lead our country (18) No private business may be considered at any sitting to into a no-deal exit on 31 October. That has been made which the provisions of this order apply. clear by the Prime Minister on repeated occasions. Motion under section 3(2)(b) of the Northern Ireland (Executive The fourth and final fact is that, instead of constituting Formation etc) Act 2019 a threat to the EU that will force them to capitulate and (19) No motion may be made by a Minister of the Crown remove the backstop, the Government’s intention or under section 3(2)(b) of the Northern Ireland (Executive willingness to lead the country into a no-deal exit is a Formation etc) Act 2019 prior to Monday 9 September. threat to our country. The Prime Minister is much in the Royal Assent position of someone standing on one side of a canyon (20) At the sittings on Monday 9 September,Tuesday 10 September shouting to people on the other side of the canyon that and Wednesday 11 September, the House shall not adjourn until if they do not do as he wishes, he will throw himself into the Speaker shall have reported the Royal Assent to any Act the abyss. That is not a credible negotiating strategy, agreed upon by both Houses. and it is also not a responsible strategy, given that the Proceedings in next Session of Parliament rest of us are to be dragged over the edge with the Prime (21) The provisions of paragraphs (22) and (23) of this order Minister. apply to and in connection with proceedings on a Bill in the next Session of the present Parliament if— Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con): I (a) the European Union (Withdrawal) (No. 6) Bill has thank my right hon. Friend for giving way. Most of us been read the third time in the present Session of in this place would prefer a good trade deal to no deal, Parliament but has not received the Royal Assent; but does he not understand that, in any negotiation, the (b) the Speaker is satisfied that the Bill is in similar terms chances of a bad deal materially increase if one signals to the European Union (Withdrawal) (No. 6) Bill in the present Session of Parliament; to the other side that one is not prepared to walk away? Does he not see that? (c) notice of presentation of the Bill is to be given by a designated Member. Sir Oliver Letwin: These are difficult matters of judgment, (22) Where the conditions in paragraph (21) are met, Standing Order No. 14(11) (which relates to precedence in respect of and I respect the judgment that my hon. Friend makes, private Members’ Bills) shall not apply in respect of the Bill in but it is different from mine. When we were negotiating the new Session and notice of presentation of that Bill may be the coalition between the Conservative party and the given on the first day of the new Session accordingly. Liberal Democrats, which gave rise to a rather good (23) Where the conditions in paragraph (21) are met, the Government, we were sitting around wondering how to provisions of paragraphs (1), (3) to (9) and (11) to (18) shall apply conduct those negotiations. We came to the conclusion to proceedings on and in connection with the Bill in the new that actually we should disobey the rules of negotiation Session as they apply to the European Union (Withdrawal) (No. that my hon. Friend is describing and offer a bold and 6) Bill and any reference in this order to Wednesday 4 September imaginative offer to the other side, which was then shall apply as if it were a reference to the second day of the new accepted, and we formed a coalition on the terms on Session. which we wished to form it by mutual accord. That is Interpretation, etc the way in which I believe these negotiations can proceed. (24) In this Order, “a designated Member” means— To offer a threat that actually harms us many times 85 European Union (Withdrawal)3 SEPTEMBER 2019 European Union (Withdrawal) 86 more than those against whom the threat is supposedly Dr Caroline Johnson (Sleaford and North Hykeham) levelled is not, as I say, a credible negotiating strategy. I (Con): I thank my right hon. Friend for giving way. He accept that our judgments differ on that, but that is my said just now that he thinks there is only a very slender judgment. It is a matter for the House to decide which chance of a deal—I disagree with him on that point—and of the two judgments is correct. also that he wishes to block no deal. If he sees little or no chance of a deal and little or no chance of no deal, () (Con): Will my right hon. what is the point of an extension to 31 January just to Friend give way? do this again and again? Can he not see the damage that would be done to businesses by having this process Sir Oliver Letwin: Before I give way, I will say that repeated every three months ad infinitum? this will be the last intervention I will take before I move on a bit. Sir Oliver Letwin: Uncertainty does create difficulty for business. A no-deal exit will create a great deal more difficulty for business, in my judgment. Crispin Blunt: If my right hon. Friend recalls, the Foreign Affairs Committee’s report on no deal two The purpose of the extension, which will no doubt be weeks before we gave notice under article 50, which was debated extensively if this motion is passed and there is unanimously agreed across a Committee wholly split on a debate on the Bill tomorrow, is very clear. It is to the merits of the issue, concluded that the damage that provide the Government with the time to seek to solve would be done by the failure to get an agreement this problem and to enable Parliament to help to resolve between the United Kingdom and the European Union an issue that has proved very difficult. would be greater for the European Union in material terms, but greater for the United Kingdom in proportionate Dr Johnson: Will my right hon. Friend give way? terms. However, the absolute damage being represented on the other side is at stake, so his negotiation— Sir Oliver Letwin: I am afraid that I will not give way again. Mr Speaker: Order. It is very selfish if an intervention I do not say it is easy to do it by 31 January, but I am is so long as to prevent other people from getting in. sure it will not be done by 31 October. We are between a rock and a hard place, and in this instance the hard Sir Oliver Letwin: I agree with my hon. Friend that place is better than the rock—it is as simple as that. It is the proportions are different from the absolutes, but I decision time. If hon. Members across the House want fear that my hon. Friend’s Committee’s report was to prevent a no-deal exit on 31 October, they will have deficient, in my view, in an important respect. There is a the opportunity to do so if, but only if, they vote for this counterbalancing point from the EU’s perspective, and motion this evening. I hope they will do so. that is that actually demonstrating that it causes great pain proportionately to the country that is doing it 7 pm is regarded as a significant political, ideological and geopolitical advantage. We have no similar advantage, Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab): I rise to so the threat to our prosperity and the welfare of our support the motion in the name of the right hon. people is the only issue that arises, whereas for the EU Member for West Dorset (Sir Oliver Letwin). there is a positive advantage in a no-deal exit to be During my time in this House, every Prime Minister balanced against the absolute and proportionately much has accepted that there can be honourable disagreements, smaller effect on the member states’ economies. Again, and I have had many disagreements with each and every my hon. Friend and I may differ in that judgment, but one of them. That has led to many votes in this House, that is the judgment that we are asking the House to which have not always been entered into with certainty make, and I take the view that I have espoused. on the outcome or on victory, but both sides have In the light of the four facts—the slender chance of a always done so safe in the knowledge that this Parliament deal being struck on the Government’s terms; the fact is sovereign and can act as an effective block on any that this is Parliament’s last chance to block a no-deal abuse of power. I therefore urge all MPs on all sides to exit on 31 October; the fact that without a parliamentary stand up for what is right and for what they believe in block the Government are willing to take us into a no and to support this cross-party move. deal exit; and the fact that prospect of such a disorderly and undemocratic no-deal exit is a threat to our prosperity Thelma Walker (Colne Valley) (Lab): Does my right and our Union, rather than an effective negotiating hon. Friend agree that, if we are to trust the Prime strategy with the EU—we are putting forward to the Minister that a deal is in sight, he should do all he can House today a motion, the sole purpose of which is to to show evidence of the progress he has made in the enable the House tomorrow to debate and vote on a Bill negotiations over the summer and publish the Government’s in the names of the right hon. Member for Leeds proposals? Central (Hilary Benn) and my right hon. Friend the Member for North East Bedfordshire (Alistair Burt). If Jeremy Corbyn: My hon. Friend makes a pertinent the House votes for this motion tonight, it will give point because, in the six weeks or so since the Prime itself the ability to vote for that Bill tomorrow. That Bill Minister took office, apparently no proposals have been will mandate the Prime Minister to seek an extension to put to the European Union and there have been no 31 January unless he has either got a deal in place at the substantive negotiations. He keeps talking about the end of the European Council meeting in October and prospect of progress being made. Well, one would have has got it agreed by Parliament or has got Parliament to thought he would have something practical to report to agree to a no-deal exit by 19 October. the House by this stage, and, so far, he has not. 87 European Union (Withdrawal)3 SEPTEMBER 2019 European Union (Withdrawal) 88

James Cartlidge (South Suffolk) (Con): If a motion their own side is unprecedented, but let me offer some for an October general election comes forward before words of encouragement. [Interruption.] It is all right; I the end of the week, will the right hon. Gentleman vote am trying to help. Standing by your principles does not for it? Yes or no. always damage your future prospects. Jeremy Corbyn: We are ready for a general election, Mr Baron: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for ready to take on this Government and ready to win a giving way, but may I suggest that he should be careful general election to end austerity and poverty across this with his selection of evidence? The Treasury, the country, but just look at what we face: a Government International Monetary Fund and the Bank of England determined to subvert the democratic process and to all made predictions of doom and gloom if we voted to force through a policy that a majority of this House do leave in 2016. They said there would be economic not support and that has been defeated emphatically disaster by Christmas 2016, and they were all wrong. twice in this House; a Government who are so determined Since then there has been record low unemployment, to continue on their reckless path that they are willing record manufacturing output and record investment, in to use every trick in the book and to find every loophole the full knowledge that no deal is better than a bad deal. to try to silence this House, and we cannot stand idly by.

Sir Patrick McLoughlin (Derbyshire Dales) (Con): I Jeremy Corbyn: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that think I am correct in saying that, in 2015, the Leader of intervention. The only problem is that it flies in the face the Opposition voted for the referendum. Did he mean of all the facts that are published day in, day out. The to abide by the result? value of the pound is falling and manufacturing industry is falling, and I will come on to a number of other Jeremy Corbyn: Yes, the Labour Opposition did support industries that are seriously at threat. the referendum and did take part in the referendum I pay tribute to those people across all parties who campaign. We also made it very clear at the general have come together and continued to work to make a election that we would not countenance a no-deal exit stand against this Government’s reckless and shambolic from the European Union because of the damage it approach. The Prime Minister says that now is not the would do. We cannot hope for another opportunity time for Parliament to make this stand. He says the further down the line to stop this Government’sdestructive chances of a Brexit deal are improving and that the outlines course. There is no more time—they have taken it of an agreement are in the making, yet all the evidence away—and this may be our last opportunity. Today we points to the contrary. So far, in their six weeks in office, must act. this Government have spent more time trying to avoid Danielle Rowley (Midlothian) (Lab): Many constituents scrutiny and trying to silence Parliament than focusing and businesses in Midlothian have contacted me, and on getting a good deal for this country. With weeks to they are very worried about the grave danger of a go until we crash out of the European Union, they have no-deal Brexit and the effect it would have. What does failed to bring forward any new proposals, especially my right hon. Friend think about the effect of a no-deal with regard to the Irish backstop. Brexit on our people and businesses across the country? Even if the Government had worked up new plans or presented a way forward, it seems very unlikely that the Jeremy Corbyn: I was with my hon. Friend in Scotland EU would agree to the Prime Minister’s red line of last week, and we heard concerns from many people, scrapping the backstop.As the Attorney General reportedly particularly those who trade extensively with Europe, put it, such a proposition would be a “complete fantasy.” about the effect of a no-deal Brexit and the damage it The reality is that no progress has been made in Brussels, would do to their businesses and the jobs that go with nor is there likely to be. This reckless Government only them. have one plan: to crash out of the EU without a deal, at whatever price to our industry, to people’s jobs and to Vicky Ford (Chelmsford) (Con): The right hon. people’s living standards. Gentleman says he wants to avoid a no-deal exit, but he voted against the deal three times. Exactly what changes to the withdrawal agreement would he like to see if he Several hon. Members rose— were ever to vote for it? Jeremy Corbyn: I have given way many times to Jeremy Corbyn: I think I am right in saying that on Conservative Members, so I will continue. two occasions I voted alongside the Prime Minister That is why so many people across this House will against those deals. stand up to say no to no deal. It has been exposed I understand that Members on both sides of the today, as reported in The Daily Telegraph, that the House are under a great deal of pressure in what is, Prime Minister’s chief of staff called negotiations a regrettably, an extremely volatile political climate, but if “sham” and that the real strategy is to run down the you truly trust in what all the analysis shows—including clock. That is why it is incumbent on us, as Members of the Government’s own analysis, as was demonstrated Parliament, to act today. Voting to block no deal will earlier—if you believe in what the experts say and if you not kill the positive momentum in , understand that a no-deal Brexit will be a disaster for because there is no momentum in the Brexit negotiations this country, you must act now. to kill. What we are asking MPs today to do is to rule With that in mind, I pay tribute to those who have out playing Russian roulette with this country’s future, shown the political courage to boldly stand up for what with our industry, our national health service and people’s they believe in by bringing this debate to the House. The jobs and livelihoods all at stake for the Government’s bullying and the threats to Conservative Members from trying to retain power. 89 European Union (Withdrawal)3 SEPTEMBER 2019 European Union (Withdrawal) 90

Let us not forget what no deal means for this country. We must listen to what every sector of society is telling No deal will decimate our manufacturing industry.No deal us regarding the damage of a no-deal Brexit and what it will destroy our agricultural sector. will do to our society and our economy. If we, as a Parliament, do not make this stand today, there may Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab): I am not be another opportunity—it may simply be too late. sure my right hon. Friend knows that the We must listen to those warnings, If people in this group of MPs has undertaken lots of consultations. We House know better than the BMA, the NFU or Make have another meeting tomorrow with businesses in the UK about their own sectors, or know better than the west midlands, because they are concerned about the trade unions that represent the people working in those implications of no deal. Does he agree that it is imperative plants and delivery facilities all over the country, they that we get a proper deal to safeguard the millions of should say so now. I have met trade unionists all over jobs up and down the country, particularly those in the the country in the past few months and spoken to the west midlands and Coventry? TUC about this. They are all deeply worried about the continued job losses in manufacturing because of Jeremy Corbyn: My hon. Friend is right to say that the uncertainty that no deal will bring. the west midlands will be particularly hard hit, because I understand that there will be some concern about so much of its industry relies on just-in-time deliveries the Bill that may follow this debate—some concern from the continent, as well as exports to it, and on a from Members across the House that supporting such a manufacturing process that means that, if any interruption Bill would be an attempt to block Brexit or reverse the whatsoever happens, there is chaos immediately at the results of the 2016 referendum. That is not the case; this point of production, as well as at the transport system Bill does not close other options to resolve the Brexit that supplies those places. There has to be some realistic impasse. The Bill is about preventing a damaging no understanding in this House of the implications of a deal, for which this Government have no mandate and no-deal Brexit for the west midlands, as well as for other for which there is very little public support. The Bill is parts of this country. designed purely to provide vital breathing space in order to find an alternative way through the Brexit mess Mr Shailesh Vara (North West Cambridgeshire) (Con) that this and the previous Government have created. rose— Today is another historic day in Parliament. It is our chance to seize this last opportunity and to stand up to Jeremy Corbyn: I have given way many times to many a bullying Government who have shown themselves people, and I am sure the hon. Gentleman will make a ready to dodge scrutiny and silence debate. If we do not wonderful contribution when he gets to make his speech. act today, we may not get another chance. Whether No deal threatens peace and stability in Northern people voted leave or remain, they did not vote to shut Ireland, and threatens our policing and counter-terrorism down democracy. The very large number of people who co-operation with Europe. No deal will mean food were on the streets last Saturday, from both the leave shortages and medical shortages, and it will bring chaos and remain views, were very concerned about the way in to our ports and transport networks. Earlier, we had a which this Government are trying to shut down debate, Minister at the Dispatch Box proudly telling us that shut down democracy and lead us into what I believe 1,000 more staff have been employed to deal with would be the problems of a no-deal Brexit. So I urge all congestion that will be happening at the channel ports. MPs today to do what they believe to be right for their Is that not an indication of the Government’s own constituents—for their jobs, their living standards and admission of what the problems are going to be if we their communities—and support the proposal today leave with no deal? that we may debate the Bill tomorrow and prevent a Our economy is already fragile—the economy contracted no-deal Brexit, with all the damage it would do to our in the last quarter and manufacturing has contracted at community and to our society. the fastest pace for seven years—and no deal would accelerate that decline. As I said, now is not the time to 7.16 pm play Russian roulette with our economy. These are not the warnings of some ultra-remain group. These are The Leader of the House of Commons (Mr Jacob warnings outlined in the Government’s own assessments Rees-Mogg): It is a pleasure to speak in this debate, and the warnings of leading industry figures. Members brought to us by my right hon. Friend the Member for do not have to take my word for it. They do not have West Dorset (Sir Oliver Letwin) and to follow the to listen to me if they do not want to. Instead, they Leader of Her Majesty’s Opposition. can listen to the likes of Make UK, which represents The Prime Minister has said, including in his statement 20,000 British manufacturing companies and has said earlier, that this Government are absolutely committed that leaving without a deal would be to delivering Brexit on 31 October. We must deliver the “the height of economic lunacy”. largest democratic mandate in this nation’s history. Delivering the referendum result requires this House to They can listen to the National Farmers Union, which respect the voice of the people as expressed in that has said that no deal would have a “devastating impact” historic vote—so far, the House has failed to do so. And on British food and farming and now, instead of backing the Prime Minister and giving “must be avoided at all costs”. him the best possible chance of securing a deal before Or they can listen to the British Medical Association, the UK leaves the European Union on 31 October, which has made clear: we find ourselves debating a proposition that seeks to “The consequences of ‘no deal’could have potentially catastrophic confound the referendum result again. Mr Speaker, I consequences for patients, the health workforce and services, and wish to be clear: what is proposed today is constitutionally the nation’s health.” irregular. 91 European Union (Withdrawal)3 SEPTEMBER 2019 European Union (Withdrawal) 92

Peter Kyle (Hove) (Lab): Would the right hon. Gentleman so I ask clearly: first, on what date did the Leader of the remind the House: how many times did he vote against House first become aware of the plan to prorogue the deal? Parliament? Secondly, have any officials from his office, or elsewhere, whether political advisers Mr Rees-Mogg: The deal is dreadful, which is why or civil servants, been conducting communications away the Prime Minister is getting a better one—if only the from the normal channels, in such a way that would not House would let him. However, this is irregular, both in comply with the terms of candour and disclosure necessary terms of the approach to allowing SO 24s on substantive for the court proceedings that are currently taking motions and in terms of the subversion of Parliament’s place? proper role in scrutinising and the Executive’s in initiating. Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind): The right hon. Mr Rees-Mogg: If people were carrying out discussions Gentleman will know the importance of the Good without candour, I would not know about them so Friday agreement to the people of Northern Ireland. would not be able to tell the hon. Gentleman whether He will also know, as a Unionist, that without a deal they had happened. I carry out all my discussions with there will be an inevitable hardening of the border candour and—if anybody is interested—the Privy Council’s between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland, function is reported in the Court Circular. which will incentivise Sinn Féin to agitate for a border poll to take Northern Ireland out of the United Kingdom Mr Vara: Were we to leave the EU on a no-deal basis, and into the Republic of Ireland—into a . in effect that would mean that we would operate on How on earth could he defend the indefensible? World Trade Organisation rules. Given that the EU currently operates on WTO rules with a number of Mr Rees-Mogg: Because I simply disagree with the countries—including the US, China, Russia, Argentina, hon. Lady—there would have to be a political desire to Australia, New Zealand and many others—does my impose a hard border, and neither the United Kingdom right hon. Friend agree that we should not be fearful of nor the Government of the Republic of Ireland have trading on WTO rules outside the EU? We already such a desire. trade on WTO rules in the EU.

Neil Gray (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP): I have a certain Mr Rees-Mogg: My hon. Friend makes a brilliant fondness for the right hon. Gentleman, stemming from and incisive point and is absolutely right. our time on the restoration and renewal Committee some years ago. I will tell him what is constitutionally We need to examine what is being put forward to the irregular: shutting down Parliament, shutting down House and to consider the concerning and odd fact that debate and shutting down the ability of MPs to hold it is actually being permitted in the first place. Let us this Government to account. Can he therefore tell me look at Standing Order No. 24 and the approach we are when he became aware of the Prime Minister’s plan to taking. As you know, Mr Speaker, I take an interest in shut down Parliament in order to force through a the rules of the House. no-deal Brexit? Papers in the Court of Session today suggest that this was the Prime Minister’s plan on Mr Kenneth Clarke (Rushcliffe) (Con): I was astonished 16 August. to hear my right hon. Friend agree that we would be perfectly all right to proceed on WTO rules. Does he Mr Rees-Mogg: As Parliament is not being shut accept that WTO rules will require the European Union down—cannot be shut down—I could not be aware of to apply tariffs against our agriculture, fisheries and plans to do something that is not happening, so the much of our manufacturing, in line with the tariffs it hon. Gentleman is simply wrong. imposes against other third-party countries, and that WTO rules will require us to have a closed border in Mr Baron: My right hon. Friend will be aware that the Ireland to enforce those restrictions? We cannot have it majority of Members—colleagues—who will vote against one way and another: we either obey the WTO rules or the Government tonight voted to trigger article 50, we ignore those as well and pretend we are going into which said that we would leave the EU with or without some never-never land, but my right hon. Friend cannot a deal. It was very simple and very clear. Which bit does simply accept calmly the argument that WTO rules he think they now do not understand? would do no damage to our economy. Mr Rees-Mogg: They do not like losing referendums and never accepted the result. Mr Rees-Mogg: I must confess that I am surprised by my right hon. and learned Friend’s astonishment because I must come back to the constitutional issue, because I have been making the case for WTO rules for some this motion risks subverting Parliament’s proper role in time. It has been a sensible way to proceed and will scrutinising and the Executive’s in initiating. You in allow us to carry on trading as we do with many other particular, Mr Speaker, have a grave responsibility, of countries. which I know you are well aware, to uphold the norms and conventions that underpin our constitution, but we all have a role to play, and it does considerable damage Mr (Beaconsfield) (Con): My right when some of us choose to subvert rather than reinforce—to hon. Friend says that the House’s role is one of scrutiny, hinder rather than to polish—our constitution. and I agree, yet does he not see that there is an incompatibility between that scrutiny and in fact taking Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/ steps through Prorogation to deprive us of the effective Co-op): The Leader of the House is talking about the opportunity to carry it out? When considering that, he alleged subversion of democracy. He seemed not to may also agree with me that so much in this House answer the hon. Member for Airdrie and Shotts (Neil Gray), depends on trust. How can we have trust when there 93 European Union (Withdrawal)3 SEPTEMBER 2019 European Union (Withdrawal) 94 have already been a number of examples of the while Parliament is prorogued. I want Parliament to Government’s making inaccurate statements, such as, prorogue, but I want it to prorogue only for four or first, that the papers prepared for its Yellowhammer five days so that we can do our job of scrutinising the briefing were the product of a previous Administration Government through proceedings in Parliament. That when they were not; and secondly, and perhaps most is the point: we want a Queen’s Speech but we also want pertinently, when it appears that the facts as stated by to be able to come back and do our job. the Government as to the reasons for Prorogation have turned out to be entirely inaccurate and are now causing Mr Rees-Mogg: The hon. Gentleman knows the the Government considerable difficulties over their duty procedures of this House only too well. He knows that of candour in litigation? When he aggregates all that we are about to go, in some cases, to the seaside for together, perhaps my right hon. Friend might begin to party conferences—in the case of my party, to a major understand why many of us have finally decided that city centre. That is why we are taking four or five days of this House must take action. parliamentary time and simply going over the normal recess. That is not in any sense an abuse. Mr Rees-Mogg: My right hon. and learned Friend is very learned but his learning does not always lead him Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): Will the in the right direction. The Prorogation is completely Leader of the House go back to his point about Standing routine. When I was first—and, indeed, last—at this Order No. 24? It seems to me that he is absolutely Dispatch Box, Opposition Front Benchers were asking correct—as Mr Speaker was correct in his previous for the Session to be brought to an end. We were merely statement—that this could not be on a substantive being our obliging selves in leading forth to a new motion. If the motion, which appears to be substantive, Queen’s Speech in the general course of events. is carried tonight, it seems to me that the Government would have every right to declare it ultra vires and Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): Will the Leader of ignore it. the House give way? Mr Speaker: Order. I know that the hon. Gentleman Mr Rees-Mogg: In due course, because we always like will not presume to argue with the judgment of the to hear from the hon. Gentleman, who informs and Chair, entitled as he is to the possession and expression educates us when he speaks— of his opinion. What I say to him in order to help him and to assist the Leader of the House is this: if, in the Chris Bryant: Can I do it now? judgment of the Chair, a motion under Standing Order Mr Rees-Mogg: No. We are going to have to wait for No. 24 is expressed in neutral terms, it will not be open this informing and educating. We are all bating our to amendment—if it is judged to be expressed in neutral breath for it, but I like to keep people on tenterhooks terms. The reality of the matter is that there have been for the time being, because I wish to talk about our old previous occasions upon which there have been Standing friend “Erskine May”, which sets out your role,Mr Speaker. Order No. 24 motion debates which have contained The chief characteristics attached the office of Speaker what I would prefer to call evaluative motions, notably in the House of Commons are authority and impartiality. on 18 March 2013 and on 11 December 2018 with It would be disorderly, wrong and not my intention to which I feel sure the Leader of the House is familiar. It question your impartiality, Mr Speaker, but, as with the is in conformity with that practice that I have operated. umpires at Edgbaston who saw eight of their decisions I have taken advice of a professional kind, and I am sent for review and overturned, accepting somebody’s entirely satisfied that the judgment that I have made is impartiality is not the same as accepting their infallibility. consistent with that advice. My attitude is simply to seek to facilitate the House. The Leader of the House It is worth noting what a wise and scholarly Speaker rightly referred to my responsibility as grave and solemn, once said—indeed, this wise and scholarly Speaker said and I completely accept that as well as I accept his right as recently as last year that a debate held under Standing to his own view about my judgment in this matter. I Order No. 24 could be held on a substantive and have sought to exercise my judgment in discharging my amendable motion only if the Standing Order is itself responsibility to facilitate the House of Commons—to amended. In April 2018, in the light of two emergency facilitate the legislature. I have done it; I am doing it; debates on the UK’s decision to take military action in and I will do it to the best of my ability without fear or Syria, you yourself, Mr Speaker, said that favour—or, to coin a phrase, come what may, do or die. “it is perfectly open to the House to amend Standing Order No.24, of which there is some uncertainty and often incomprehension. Mr Rees-Mogg: I am grateful, as always, Mr Speaker, It could be amended to allow for the tabling of substantive motions in circumstances of emergency, which could also be for your contribution to the debate. It is always very amendable and on which the House could vote. If there are useful that your words are referred to and that the Members who are interested in that line of inquiry, they could House should be reminded of them. It was suggested by usefully raise it with the Chair of the Procedure Committee”.—[Official you that this matter should be referred to the Procedure Report, 19 April 2018; Vol. 639, c. 475.] Committee and that the motion should be amended, As far as I am aware, no change has been made to which it has not been. Standing Order No. 24, yet the decision has changed— varius et mutabilis semper dictor. Several hon. Members rose— Chris Bryant: The Leader of the House said earlier Mr Rees-Mogg: There is so much to say and so little that Parliament is not being suspended, but in this case time, and others want to speak. it is. He knows perfectly well that Select Committees This motion is extraordinary in a number of ways. will not be able to sit, and as according to the Bill of Rights,there will be absolutely no proceedings of Parliament Joanna Cherry (Edinburgh South West) (SNP) rose— 95 European Union (Withdrawal)3 SEPTEMBER 2019 European Union (Withdrawal) 96

Mr Rees-Mogg: I will, of course, give way to the hon. sovereign Parliament of this country clearly deserves an and learned Lady. opportunity to be able to decide whether it will accept a policy of no-deal exit or not and that that overwhelmingly Joanna Cherry: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman matters more than whether the Standing Order No. 24B, for giving way. I wonder whether I might go back to the which has “where” in it—misdrafted in all probability matter raised by the right hon. and learned Member for by the then Leader of the House—has a particular Beaconsfield (Mr Grieve). It was revealed in court this meaning or does not have a particular meaning? morning in a case raised in my name and that of 70 other Members of this House that on 16 August the Mr Rees-Mogg: There is, I am sorry to say, a stunning Prime Minister agreed to a suggestion that Parliament arrogance to that view. It fails to understand where should be prorogued on 9 September, but on 25 August sovereignty comes from. [Interruption.] I do indeed a No. 10 spokesperson said dare to say this, and I say it to my right hon. Friend. “the claim that the Government is considering proroguing Parliament in September in order to stop MPs debating Brexit is entirely Mr Speaker: Order. I recognise that there are strongly false.” held views on both sides of the House on all aspects of Does the right hon. Gentleman accept that the spokesperson this matter, but the Leader of the House must be heard. misled MPs and the public on 25 August? Mr Rees-Mogg: Sovereignty in this House comes Mr Rees-Mogg: I am sorry to say that the most from the British people. The idea that we can overrule obvious understanding of the ordinary use of the English 17.4 million people is preposterous, and the idea that language, which normally the hon. and learned Lady is our rules do not exist to protect the people from arrogant pretty good at, makes it quite clear that the two statements power grabs is mistaken. Those rules are there for the are entirely compatible. The Prorogation is the normal protection of the people. Prorogation to have a new Session; it is not to stop debate on matters related to the European Union. Several hon. Members rose— Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Mr Rees-Mogg: I have given way so many times and rose— to many distinguished Members, and it is now time to come on to this extraordinary and unprecedented motion. Mr Rees-Mogg: It is, of course, a pleasure to give way Parliament is attempting to set aside Standing Order to the hon. Gentleman. No. 14 to give precedence to the European Union (Withdrawal) (No. 6) Bill. This motion goes further and Angus Brendan MacNeil: I thank the right hon. seeks to claim an unknown and unquantified number of Gentleman for giving way.He spoke earlier about candour. subsequent days for consideration of Lords amendments The need for candour means that he has to accept that, and messages. It is a fundamental principle that the when it comes to WTO, all countries bar about three in Government are able to transact their business in this the world are in regional trade associations—the three House—a principle that this House has long accepted that are not are South , Somalia and East Timor, in Standing Order No. 14. This motion also sets aside, and they will probably soon be joined by the UK if we in a new parliamentary Session, the Standing Orders have a hard Brexit. The fact that all these countries, bar that apply in relation to the presentation of private three, are in regional trade associations means that they Members’ Bills. The motion would allow a designated do not exclusively trade on WTO terms. Therefore, Member—or a few of the Illuminati who are taking the when he talks about taking the UK to a place where we powers to themselves—to give notice of the presentation exclusively trade on WTO terms, he is talking about of this Bill on the first day of a new Session and then moving us away from free trade with 500 million people, provide time for debate on this Bill on the second day of making trade more expensive. That is his policy. The the new Session, interrupting the Queen’s Speech debate. other question is this: did he know about the Prorogation on 16 August? There is an established process for the House debating the Queen’s Speech—a process that this Bill would Mr Rees-Mogg: On 16 August, I was at Lords watching undermine. Although the Outlawries Bill has its First a game of cricket, unless it was one of the days when it Reading just before the start of the Queen’s Speech rained. On the WTO issue, our trade with the United debate, this Bill is only read the First time as a formality States on WTO terms—I know that the hon. Gentleman and not debated. To interrupt the Queen’s Speech debate is expert in these matters—has grown faster since the to debate a Back-Bench Bill, such as the one proposed creation of the single market than our trade with European in this motion, would be unprecedented. The Government Union. have an obligation to bring forward their business, and the Queen’s Speech and the debate that follows form Sir Oliver Letwin rose— one of the great set pieces of the parliamentary calendar, where the Government are rightly scrutinised and held Mr Rees-Mogg: I understand that my right hon. to account, and that is being interrupted. Friend wishes to intervene. David Linden (Glasgow East) (SNP) rose— Sir Oliver Letwin: I am very grateful to my right hon. Friend for giving way. I understand his views and his Mr Rees-Mogg: I give way to the very patient hon. concerns about the supposed constitutional irregularity Gentleman. of these proceedings, and no doubt in the future all these things can be debated. Will he accept that, as a David Linden: I want to come back to a point made nation, we stand at present at a moment that will have a by the hon. Member for Wellingborough (Mr Bone). profound effect on the welfare of our people, that the He has said quite a lot, as a Brexiteer, that we would be 97 European Union (Withdrawal)3 SEPTEMBER 2019 European Union (Withdrawal) 98 taking back control of our laws. Can the Leader of the Ministers are of course accountable to Parliament for House be crystal clear at the Dispatch Box tonight that their decisions and actions, and Parliament can make if the Bill passes in this House and in the other place, clear its views. It is not, however, for Parliament to the Government will not stop it getting Royal Assent—if undertake the role and functions of the Executive. The we are taking back control of our laws? constitutional convention is that Executive power is exercised by Her Majesty’s Government, who have a Mr Rees-Mogg: The law will be followed. We are a democratic mandate to govern. That mandate is derived country that follows the rule of law and this Government from the British people and represented through this assiduously follow constitutional conventions, unlike House. some other Members of this House. Mr Speaker, when we look at this constitution, we see Sir William Cash (Stone) (Con) rose— that we are protected by our rules, our orders and our conventions. We will remember from “A Man for All Mr Rees-Mogg: I understand that my hon. Friend Seasons” that it is those rules, laws and conventions that wishes to intervene. protect us from the winds of tyranny, and if we take away those protections, as the right hon. Member for Sir William Cash: The intervention of my right hon. West Dorset proposes to do, we lose our protections. Friend the Member for West Dorset (Sir Oliver Letwin) It is therefore on the basis of this convention that the can only be described as breathtaking. In support of the Government, not Parliament, are responsible for assertion by my right hon. Friend the Leader of the negotiations with the European Union. Parliament as a House that it was weighted with great arrogance, may I whole cannot negotiate for the UK; that is the role of ask him to be good enough to confirm that in fact the the Government, in exercising Executive power to give European Union Referendum Bill, as enacted, was a effect to the will of the nation. sovereign Act of Parliament, which deliberately gave These roles are fundamental and underpin the country’s the right to the British people, and not to the British uncodified constitution. The Government draw power Parliament, to make the decision on the question of from Parliament, but the Government may at any time remain or leave? be removed by the tried and tested motion of a confidence debate. The fact is that Parliament has not been willing Mr Rees-Mogg: My hon. Friend is of course right. to go down that route, and the reason is that the We report to the British people; they are our bosses. Opposition are afraid of that route and run away from Several hon. Members rose— it, because they do not dare have the Leader of the Opposition as the Head of Government. They are Mr Rees-Mogg: I give way to my hon. Friend the frightened. [Interruption.] The hon. Member for Brent Member for Chelmsford (Vicky Ford), who has been so Central (Dawn Butler) says that there is time. Let me patient. say, as Leader of the House, that if the Opposition want a motion of confidence, this Government will always Vicky Ford: I am grateful to the Leader of the House. obey the constitutional convention and make time for Getting back to the bigger picture, the Prime Minister it. But they are afraid—they are white with fear—because made it very clear in his speech last night and in his they do not want the right hon. Gentleman in No. 10 statement today that his preferred outcome is to leave Downing Street. with a deal. Can the Leader of the House confirm that that is also his preferred outcome and that, if a deal is Daniel Kawczynski (Shrewsbury and Atcham) (Con): agreed at the next European Council, sufficient time Does my right hon. Friend agree that if the House will be made in this Chamber to ensure that we legislate succeeds in stripping our Prime Minister of the key for that deal? negotiating card of no deal, the likelihood of that outcome will be that much accentuated? Mr Rees-Mogg: My hon. Friend is absolutely right, and I can say, both personally and as bound by collective Mr Rees-Mogg: My hon. Friend is absolutely right; it responsibility, that I am in favour of a deal. would make the negotiations that much harder. Several hon. Members rose— Let us now turn to the substance of what we are debating. Ostensibly, the purpose of the Bill is to stop Mr Rees-Mogg: We must allow other Members to no deal. But the Government want a deal. We are speak. I see that time’s wingèd chariot is speeding away, willing to sit down with the Commission and EU member and therefore I must get on to the separation of powers. states to talk about what needs to be done and to [Interruption.] Well, if the hon. Gentleman wants me achieve a deal. That must involve the excision of the to carry on all night, I will do my best. anti-democratic backstop. The Government have also been clear that we must respect the referendum result Today’s debate goes to the heart of our constitution and that the UK will be leaving the EU on 31 October, and the roles of the Executive and of Parliament. These whatever the circumstances.Unless and until the EU agrees are matters of careful balance. It is for the Government, to negotiate, we will be leaving with no deal on 31 October. by virtue of their ability to command the confidence of this House, to exercise Executive power. That includes My right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Duchy of the order of business and the bringing forward of Lancaster made a statement earlier today, in which he legislation. It is for Parliament to scrutinise, to amend, informed the House of all that is being done to ensure to reject or to approve. Indeed, the scrutiny of the that we are ready for all eventualities. The good boy Executive is one of the core functions of Parliament. scouts that we are, we are prepared. These complementary and distinctive roles are essential to the functioning of the constitution. Several hon. Members rose— 99 European Union (Withdrawal)3 SEPTEMBER 2019 European Union (Withdrawal) 100

Mr Rees-Mogg: I will definitely give way to the hon. accountability, may I ask him a simple question: on Member for Wallasey (Ms Eagle). what date did he become aware of the Prime Minister’s intention to prorogue Parliament? Ms Angela Eagle (Wallasey) (Lab): I thank the right hon. Gentleman for giving way. Does he not realise Mr Rees-Mogg: I have been asked that question, and that, in proroguing Parliament for five weeks—the longest I understand that there are papers in court. I do not Prorogation, right in the middle of a political crisis, know when I was told that it was happening, although I since 1945—he and his Government have deliberately did have to take a flight out to Aberdeen for a meeting prevented scrutiny that would be legitimate in this House, of the Privy Council. I would need to consult my diary hence the situation we find ourselves in now? Will he and my telephone records, and I would not wish to say now confirm at the Dispatch Box that if the Bill passes something that was inaccurate. through this House and the other place, he will speed Royal Assent and that his Government will not act Let us get back to what is happening here. I was against the law? saying that we, being good boy scouts, are well prepared for leaving with or without a deal, and it is absurd for Mr Rees-Mogg: I do not wish to be pedantic, but one MPs to attempt to bind the Prime Minister’s hands as of the constitutional niceties is that we are Her Majesty’s he seeks to agree a deal that they can support ahead of Government, not mine, and we are led by my right hon. the European Council. Friend the Member for Uxbridge and South Ruislip The European Union (Withdrawal) (No. 6) Bill would (Boris Johnson). The important issue here is that make it harder to deliver the two things that the public Prorogation is a routine start for a new Session, and we want from Brexit: certainty and for it to be delivered. are losing a similar number of days to the number we The Bill does not do this. It is nothing but legislative would lose in a normal Prorogation. legerdemain and a vehicle for extension after extension.

Several hon. Members rose— Dr Caroline Johnson: My constituents in Sleaford and North Hykeham voted overwhelmingly to leave Mr Rees-Mogg: I will give way to the hon. Member and are very concerned about this proposed Bill, which, for Bradford West (Naz Shah), but she is trumped, as they see it, would block Brexit. Will my right hon. momentarily, by the Chair of the Brexit Committee. Friend confirm my understanding that if the Bill were to pass, the options available would be to the EU and Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab): I am extremely that those options would be to agree a largely pointless grateful to the Leader of the House for giving way. Now three-month extension, which would almost certainly that Mr Speaker has made it clear that there is nothing be repeated; to offer a deal of the EU’s choice, not at all irregular about his acceptance of this motion, and negotiated by our Government; or no deal? Does my given that the Leader of the House accepts, as I presume right hon. Friend agree that that is not taking back he does, that the House is in charge of its own procedures, control for this Parliament or this Government, but how can there be anything constitutionally irregular in ceding it entirely to Brussels? the House choosing—if it passes the motion and then the Bill tomorrow—to instruct the Government that Mr Rees-Mogg: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. there is an outcome to the Brexit negotiations that it is What is happening is a deliberate attempt to sow the not prepared to accept, which is leaving without a deal seed for an extension long enough for a second referendum on 31 October? or simply to stop us leaving at all. It is about denying Brexit, and the fact that the Bill mandates updates on Mr Rees-Mogg: The right hon. Gentleman conflates negotiations and motions on those updates on a rolling irregular and improper. The motion is unquestionably 28-day basis clearly envisages either a lengthy extension irregular, even though it is not improper—the two are or possibly indefinite vassalage. These seeds could grow different concepts, as I am sure he fully understands. It into legislation to be introduced on 15 January,12 February is of course for the House to regulate its own proceedings, and every 28 days thereafter to command the Government but a fundamental principle of our constitution is that to take specific actions. The aim is to create a marionette the Government command the confidence of the House. Government in which there is only nominal confidence, [Interruption.] Ah! From a sedentary position an hon. and it defies the convention in what we are doing Gentleman says that the Government do not. Now, that today—a convention of great importance, that emergency is the lock that would undo this constitutional conundrum, legislation is passed only when there is a consensus. because the House dare not say that it has no confidence in the Government—it is frightened of that—and therefore Governments less benign than this one may in future it tries to take away confidence on specifics while learn from this process and ram through any legislation maintaining confidence in the generality. That is not a they feel like. Without consensus, those on the Opposition proper constitutional position to be in. Benches should be very careful about emergency legislation, for they may find they are at the wrong end of it in the Several hon. Members rose— future. We should be trying to help the Prime Minister in his chance to negotiate, not trying to bind him hand Mr Rees-Mogg: It is very difficult to choose to whom and foot: not only do we want to be the vassal state of to give way, but I did promise the hon. Lady. the European Union; we wish to send the Prime Minister, bound hand and foot, to go and negotiate with the Naz Shah (Bradford West) (Lab): I am grateful to European Union. the right hon. Gentleman. He has referred many times in his speech to accountability. Within that vein of Several hon. Members rose— 101 European Union (Withdrawal)3 SEPTEMBER 2019 European Union (Withdrawal) 102

Mr Rees-Mogg: Mr Speaker, you will be glad to know this stretches the elastic of our constitution near to that I am drawing gently to a close, and therefore I fear breaking point. We should recognise that the people are that time for interventions, except from my very old our masters and show ourselves to be their lieges and friend, the right hon. Member for Hackney South and servants, not place ourselves in the position of their Shoreditch (Meg Hillier), the Chair of the very distinguished overlords. As we come to vote today, I hope that all Committee that she is the Chair of. [Laughter.] Members will contemplate the current constitutional confusion and consider the chaos that this concatenation Mr Speaker: Send him a note! of circumstances could create. Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/ Co-op): For once, the right hon. Gentleman has made 7.56 pm an error and over-promoted me, but I thank him for his Ian Blackford (Ross, Skye and Lochaber) (SNP): It is distinctive comments. a pleasure to follow the Leader of the House. I remind There is a serious point here: we are a representative him that Lord Cooper in the Court of Session said that democracy, not a direct democracy. I take that judgment parliamentary sovereignty is a purely English concept seriously, as I know do colleagues across the House. that has no counterpart in Scottish constitutional history. The Government do not have not have a majority and In Scotland, the people are sovereign, and that, of we are in uncharted constitutional territory, so it is course, will be a matter of importance as the people of absolutely right and proper that we exercise our judgment Scotland decide what their future will be. in the interests of the country to avoid, at the very least, I am rather surprised by the right hon. Gentleman, a no-deal Brexit. For all the right hon. Gentleman’s who has always been a student of the rights of the talk, we must exercise that judgment, and that is what House, because the harsh reality is that the reason we we are doing. It is entirely responsible. are in this situation—that Parliament is to be prorogued—is that the Prime Minister has instructed three stooges to Mr Rees-Mogg: I am afraid that I disagree with the go to Balmoral to give an instruction to the Queen to hon. Lady, and I must confess that I am astonished that shut this place down. For all the pronouncements that she is not a right hon. Member. Something must have this is normal, it most certainly is not normal for gone wrong with the Privy Council, of which I am now Parliament to be prorogued for five weeks, and we know Lord President, for that not to be the case. [Interruption.] that the simple reason is that the Government are Oh, the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) feels running away from the powers and responsibilities that that he has also not been justly promoted; I am sorry. this House has. It is shameful and disgraceful, and in that regard I am deeply honoured and privileged to Chris Bryant: No, you’ve been unjustly promoted! endorse the motion in the name of the right hon. Mr Speaker: Order. I do not think that the Leader of Member for West Dorset (Sir Oliver Letwin). the House was planning to invite the hon. Member for The Scottish Government have today launched an Hackney South and Shoreditch (Meg Hillier) to join ambitious programme for government that is aimed at him in Balmoral, so I am not sure that it makes a great tackling climate change, building a fairer economy, deal of difference in the immediate circumstances. reducing inequality and improving the lives of citizens across Scotland—a Government getting on with their Mr Rees-Mogg: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I am afraid day job, 12 years into government yet still focused on that the hon. Lady is wrong because there is a routine making life better for those in Scotland. But while the constitutional procedure to deal with the situation she Government in Holyrood are stepping up to meet the describes, and that is the vote of confidence. Yes, we are challenges facing both Scotland and the world, Westminster a representative body, but where does our sovereignty is quite literally shutting down. It is very much a tale of come from? Here I am in agreement with the Scots: two Governments. While the Scottish National party is sovereignty comes from the people to Parliament. We doing everything here and in Edinburgh to move Scotland hold it in trust for them and they gave us an instruction. forward, the threat to our economy and society from If we follow this route, we are left with but three the right-wing Brexiteer cabal occupying Downing Street options: we have to accept the deal with its anti-democratic cannot be mitigated. They must—they will—be stopped. backstop; we have to keep on extending, because Parliament “A sham” is what reports say one of the Prime would never accept that we are ready to leave; or we Minister’s advisers has called his EU negotiation strategy. could simply revoke and tell 17.4 million people that “Running down the clock” is what the Telegraph is they were wrong. reporting those close to the Prime Minister as saying his The approach taken today is the most unconstitutional strategy is. A “complete fantasy” is how reports say the use of this House since the days of Charles Stewart Attorney General advised the Prime Minister over his Parnell, when he tried to bung up Parliament. Usurping approach to the backstop. The tall tales of this Prime the Executive’s right is unconstitutional; the abuse of Minister are being exposed by the media by the minute. emergency debates to do so is unconstitutional; and the Sources are exposing the smoke and mirrors behind Bill itself is yet more unconstitutional. A. V. Dicey said those playing games in No. 10. Does the Prime Minister that all conventions have think this is a game? If so, it is a very, very dangerous “one ultimate object, to secure that Parliament or the Cabinet…shall game. Make no mistake, the Prime Minister is acting in the long run give effect to the will…of the nation”. like a dictator—shutting down Parliament, ripping up These conventions are being disregarded today, and so, democracy and silencing the people. by extension, is the will of the nation. Parliament sets itself against the people. Sovereignty comes from the Stephen Doughty: The right hon. Gentleman is making people to Parliament. It does not come to Parliament some very strong points. Does he agree that if the out of a void. If Parliament tries to challenge the people, Government were serious about negotiating and there 103 European Union (Withdrawal)3 SEPTEMBER 2019 European Union (Withdrawal) 104

[Stephen Doughty] Patricia Gibson (North Ayrshire and Arran) (SNP): Does my right hon. Friend recall very clearly, as I do, were serious negotiations going on, the negotiation that on 6 April 2016 we were told by the current team would not have been cut to a quarter of the size Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, “The day after that it was under the previous Prime Minister, and there we vote to leave the EU, we will hold all the cards.”? would not be meetings happening where the chief negotiator Does that not simply show that this Government are is saying that the rationale for talking to the Brexit team being run by a hopeless, naive group of fantasists? in the EU is “domestic political” handling? Ian Blackford: It grieves me to see what is taking Ian Blackford: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely place, because, in effect, what has happened with the correct. It is a complete sham to say that negotiations election of the Prime Minister is that the are taking place. This is simply a Government who are campaign now runs the Government. The harsh reality driving us towards no deal, and Parliament, thankfully, is that Conservative Back Benchers who are prepared to is standing up for its rights. put our national interests before party interests are going to be forced out of their party. The Tory party has The Prime Minister seems to have forgotten that we been taken over by a cult, and that does nothing—absolutely in this place have been elected to represent the will of nothing—for our democracy. our constituents, and we on the SNP Benches have been elected to serve the people of Scotland—the people of Scotland who have overwhelmingly voted to remain Mr Chris Leslie (Nottingham East) (IGC): The right in the European Union. Yet this Prime Minister, by hon. Gentleman is completely right that Scotland would proroguing Parliament, has decided to ignore the will be harmed by no deal, just as my constituents in of the Scottish people, sidelined their interests and Nottingham would be harmed by no deal. He is absolutely silenced their voices. I say to Scottish Conservative right to say that this Bill is required as an insurance Members: do not stab Scotland in the back tonight; policy against no deal. Does he also agree that anything stand together with us. For once—for once—stand up that dissolves Parliament before 31 October, whether for Scotland’s interests. The Prime Minister clearly thinks through Prorogation or a jingoistic election—as the he can do whatever he wants with Scotland and get hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Angus Brendan away with it. The SNP is here today to tell him that we MacNeil) said—would put our constituents at risk, are not having it. because there simply is not the time to put all the legislation and preparations in place for that insurance Since coming to office, the Prime Minister has policy before 31 October? not given Parliament the opportunity to debate the constitutional crisis facing these islands.Despite Parliament Ian Blackford: The hon. Gentleman is right to signify previously ruling out leaving on a no-deal basis, the that we are facing a constitutional crisis. Prime Minister is pedalling us towards the cliff edge, risking a no-deal Brexit that risks jobs and food and I applaud Members of Parliament right across this medicine supplies. The population of the United Kingdom House who have worked together collectively over the is being threatened by this Government. course of the past few weeks because we understand the risk to our economy and to our communities. Thank goodness that Members of Parliament have shown that Angus Brendan MacNeil: The first observation I would desire to work across the House. We in the SNP have make about this Government is that it is amazing how made it clear that we will work with everyone else to much they are in thrall to the date of 31 October given make sure that we remove the cliff edge. We have done to them by Donald Tusk—the EU date that has now that consistently ever since 2016. We want an election, become sacrosanct for Brexiteers. The other thing that but when we can get to the safe landing place where we strikes me about this Government is that they are have no deal taken off the table for 31 October. looking to have a jingoistic pre-hard-Brexit election, but they fear a post-Brexit election when there are But I say—in no way do I mean it as a threat to empty shelves and a lack of medicines, because a lack of anyone in this House—that the people of Scotland food on the shelves and a lack of medicines do not deserve the right to be able to determine their own election victories make. They will be decimated after future. We cannot allow ourselves to be taken out of the they do the damage, so they want to cut and run and see European Union against our will. We have a mandate if they can get it over the line before they do the from the 2016 Scottish elections to deliver a referendum damage. for the people of Scotland. It is absolutely right that the people of my country who want to remain as a European nation should have that choice. The Prime Minister and Ian Blackford: My hon. Friend is correct. his Brexiteer cohorts are not going to drive Scotland The responsibility of this House is to make sure that out of the European Union against its will. we do not have the catastrophe of a no-deal Brexit—to protect us from that risk. Yes, we want an election, but Joan Ryan (Enfield North) (IGC): Does the right we want an election safe in the knowledge that we have hon. Gentleman, like me, feel somewhat disrespected by protected our citizens from a no-deal Brexit. That is the the Leader of the House, who disrespected our Speaker right thing to do. Let us remind ourselves that the Prime and his decisions and everybody who has supported Minister has not been elected by the people; he has been this motion? I am proud to have my name on it and put in power by Conservative party members. He should proud to stand with people who are willing to put put himself in front of the people. But let us, in the first country before party, country before self. I was not sent case, work together—work collectively—to remove the here by my constituents to make them poorer or to put cliff edge of 31 October. their jobs and their healthcare at risk. That is our 105 European Union (Withdrawal)3 SEPTEMBER 2019 European Union (Withdrawal) 106 overriding priority—we are here to stop a no-deal Brexit. Minister and his cronies will argue that this is normal. This is not about whether we are remainers or Brexiteers. A suspension, he argues, is quite right and proper Many people who voted for Brexit would continue to —what ridiculousness. I know that the Prime Minister do so, but not for a no-deal Brexit. There is no majority has never been one to deal in facts, but let me make it in the country or in this House for a no-deal Brexit, clear for Members. In the last 40 years, Parliament has which is a disaster for the people of this country—of all never been prorogued for longer than three weeks. In four nations. most cases, it has been prorogued for only a week or less. To try to argue that five weeks is normal is, if we Ian Blackford: The right hon. Lady makes a very are being polite, disingenuous. passionate case. The reason we are here today—the reason why we, We must reflect on what is in the Yellowhammer for want of a better phrase, are taking back control of document. It is not made up. It is not by anybody on the Order Paper on a cross-party basis—is to stop the this side of the House. It is the Government recognising Prime Minister running down the clock and obstructing the risks to the people of the United Kingdom. We have the democratic right of MPs to debate, vote and represent a Government who are telling us that there is a potential the will of the people who sent us to this place. This risk to food supplies and to medical supplies, particularly shameful act from the Prime Minister is because he for those who need epilepsy drugs. Good grief—contained knows there is no majority here for a no-deal Brexit, within the document is talk about a limited risk to water because he knows there is no support from the public supplies for hundreds of thousands of people. Just for a no-deal Brexit and because he knows what we all think about this: think about a Government who are know: that a no-deal Brexit is catastrophic for the lives telling the people of the United Kingdom, “We cannot of citizens across these islands. guarantee that you’re going to have a water supply.” Just in office, the Prime Minister is toying with our What on earth are we doing? democratic processes. Ruth Fox, director of the Hansard The nub of this is that it is about ideology. However Society, said that it was an “affront to parliamentary people voted in the Brexit referendum, they certainly democracy”. Why? Because the Prime Minister wants did not vote for this. The Treasury published a document things his own way, and at any cost. The real reason he last year showing that a no-deal Brexit could reduce cannot bear for Parliament to sit and debate is that he GDP over a 15-year period by something close to 10%. knows he does not have the majority to support his Just dwell on this: we are talking about an impact on the disastrousplanstodestroyoureconomywithano-dealBrexit. economy that is four times greater than the economic What an embarrassment to parliamentary democracy. crisis of 2008—the economic crisis that ushered in a Well, the Prime Minister cannot stop MPs doing their decade of austerity. It is the height of irresponsibility jobs. We will be heard, and democracy must be respected. for any politician to think that we should be supporting Just last week, I was proud that my party signed a no deal, putting constituents on the dole. Unemployment declaration alongside MPs from across the parties in is never a price worth paying, but this Government are Church House, warning the Government: prepared to put the people of the United Kingdom on “Any attempt to prevent parliament sitting, to force through a the dole. We will not sit back and allow that to happen. no-deal Brexit, will be met by strong and widespread democratic resistance.” Ged Killen (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Lab/Co-op): Has the Prime Minister still not listened? Even today, a The right hon. Gentleman is making a very passionate cross-party group of politicians is in Edinburgh for a case as to why no deal will be such a disaster. Does he full hearing in the Court of Session, attempting to agree that we must once and for all dispense with the prevent the Prime Minister from proroguing Parliament. notion that it is some kind of bargaining chip in these My hon. and learned Friend the Member for Edinburgh negotiations? Shooting yourself in the foot because you South West (Joanna Cherry) has already called on the do not get what you want is not a negotiating position. Prime Minister to swear on oath his reasons for the Prorogation of Parliament. Will the Prime Minister do so? I think we know the answer to that. We also have a Ian Blackford: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman; group of experts in constitutional law, human rights he is absolutely correct. It is delusional, and the Government and justice arguing in that the recent decision should start telling the truth to people. to prorogue Parliament sets a dangerous precedent and, furthermore, is incompatible with Executive accountability Dr Philippa Whitford (Central Ayrshire) (SNP): Does to Parliament as prescribed by the constitution. my right hon. Friend agree that what we hear from Has the Prime Minister no shame? This is a blind Europe is that there is not actually any proposal on the power grab, showing total arrogance and contempt for table from the Government, so there has been no serious the electorate. Instead of giving the people a new Prime negotiation to get a deal, and it is all a fairy tale and a Minister who listens to their wishes, he has robbed the sham? people of all power. What does shutting down Parliament on a whim mean for this Prime Minister or a future Ian Blackford: I do not know what the Prime Minister Prime Minister? For us from Scotland, what protection believes, but he was asked several times today by Members do we have if any UK Prime Minister sought to shut in this House to tell us what proposition the Government down the ? We need to protect our are making. There is none. It is a sham. This Government Parliament from this Prime Minister. are heading us towards the cliff edge of no deal. That is It is clear that this House is not supportive of the the reality. Prime Minister’s actions. This emergency debate is crucial, The deepening of the democratic deficit under the as MPs today need to carve a way forward to allow Prime Minister is despicable. This decision is an outrageous emergency legislation against no deal to be passed. assault on basic democratic principles, yet the Prime The cross-party Bill seeks to ensure that the UK will not 107 European Union (Withdrawal)3 SEPTEMBER 2019 European Union (Withdrawal) 108

[Ian Blackford] The reason for this motion and the underlying reason for the opposition to it is simply that the Government leave the EU without a deal unless Parliament consents are insisting on pursuing a policy that they know a to such an outcome. It will also require the Prime majority in Parliament is opposed to. There is no precedent Minister to then extend article 50. That is a crucial step for it that I can think of—certainly not in modern times. to prevent a catastrophic no deal, to protect our economy I have been around for long enough, but 10 years ago, if and our communities. This is how we can come together a Government had attempted to implement a policy to avoid a no-deal Brexit, to protect the interests of that they knew the majority of Parliament were against, citizens across these islands and, fundamentally to protect it would have created outrage. not simply the rights of Parliament or parliamentarians Parliament has twice voted against leaving with no but the rights of the people. deal. This Prime Minister has plainly determined that The denial of Parliament having its say denies people he has put himself in a position where he has got to in Scotland and across the UK their say against a have no deal. We have seen the most extraordinary no-deal Brexit. We in the SNP cannot countenance attempts to avoid this House having opportunities to that. I urge Members to unite to stop a no-deal Brexit, vote on that, to debate it and to play a role in it. If to stop this Prime Minister and this dictatorship, and to Parliament allows itself to be sidelined, the precedent restore democracy. Tonight, it is our turn to take back that we will create for future generations and for the control. Tonight, the Prime Minister is going to be behaviour of future Governments of all complexions stopped in his tracks. The Prime Minister has tried to vis-à-vis Parliament will be quite horrendous. rob the people of their power. Now it is our time to rob We have heard arguments about the importance of him of his. limiting these emergency debates. My right hon. Friend Several hon. Members rose— the Leader of the House is very good at keeping a straight face when he is coming out with arguments that Mr Speaker: Order. After we have heard from the are almost incredible. The benefits of trading solely Father of the House, whom I intend shall speak next, it within the WTO I will leave on one side. I am sure the will be necessary for there to be a time limit on Back-Bench North Koreans thrive under that in every conceivable speeches, imposed by me in the name of trying to way. [Laughter] I think it is only the North Koreans, accommodate the maximum number of colleagues in the Algerians and perhaps the Serbians who do that. this important debate. I call Mr Kenneth Clarke. When the Leader of the House says how important it is 8.15 pm that this House defends its traditions by making sure that in no circumstances can it ever debate business of Mr Kenneth Clarke (Rushcliffe) (Con): Mr Speaker, its own choice, even in an emergency—and I know that you are very generous to me. I will try to be extremely he is a profound parliamentarian and deeply committed brief. The right hon. Member for Ross, Skye and Lochaber to the wellbeing of this place—his ability to keep a (Ian Blackford) has just enabled me to be briefer, because straight face is quite remarkable. However, I am being he made the key point in the last few moments of his deflected from the serious point I was making. speech when he talked about what really lies behind this Bill, from the point of view of Parliament and parliamentary Prorogation was the final, almost charmingly naive, democracy. attempt to make sure that there was not even an opportunity We all know that we are in the middle of an historic by mistake for something on the Order Paper to enable crisis, and we all know that our duty is to take the anybody here to express their opinion. Apparently, it is decision that will be best for future generations and will suddenly frightfully important that the Government’s do least damage to our political standing in the world whole new policy package—which seems to be emerging and to our economy. This horrendous debate, which is at an extraordinary rate, in figures anyway—is put tearing the country apart, is doing great harm to our before Parliament before the end of October, when we political institutions, and particularly Parliament. A have not really bothered with policy of that kind for a large number of the population on either side of the very long time. It is plainly impossible to put it off until European debate are beginning to hold Parliament almost the beginning of November! in contempt. Fanatic leavers are convinced that it is Most importantly,apparently the reason for the extremely wicked MPs who are undermining the people’s will and long break is that it is extremely important that we do that we are solely responsible for the appalling deadlock not distract the public from paying proper attention to we are in. the party conferences! [Laughter.] Wehave to be respectful I am very glad that, with your help, Mr Speaker, my to the Trades Union Congress; we cannot distract the right hon. Friends and others have found this way of television sets of the nation from the Liberal assembly; enabling Parliament to assert itself, give its view and apparently every Conservative MP is dying to go to the face the fundamental challenge from a constitutional Conservative conference. [Laughter.] We know there point of view which will determine the political relationship are people who will have engagements there, but I am between Governments of all colours and Parliaments sure the pairing system can cope with that. The idea for quite a long time to come. that at the moment of such historic crisis, such momentous decisions, the House can be faced with arguments of Sir Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con): Will my that kind, I find quite preposterous and very saddening. right hon. and learned Friend give way? Given that we are being treated in this way, it is quite Mr Clarke: With great respect, I would love to debate obvious that the House must seize its own agenda—that with my right hon. Friend, and I often have, but my is all that this evening’s vote is about—and make the speech will get longer and longer once I give way. As most of the opportunity in the next few days. Then the Mr Speaker has not put me under the time limit, I will House can make key decisions on what it will legally try to avoid giving way, to be fair to others. require the Government to pursue in the national interest: 109 European Union (Withdrawal)3 SEPTEMBER 2019 European Union (Withdrawal) 110 most importantly being strongly against just leaving with Friday agreement. At the root, we have to deliver to no deal. I would be amazed if a majority does not emerge, the people, and I think we could get a broad mass of the yet again. It is not that anybody really wants that—I public together on something that keeps our economic think about 20 Members of the House of Commons ties together and attempts—as the EU keeps doing really think it is a good idea to leave with no deal. It under British leadership—to extend free trade through is the right of my party, that has given up and decided more and more EU trade agreements, which we took to get it over with: “Leave with no deal; it’s all the fault the leading part in pressing for and which we are now of the Germans, the French and particularly the about to walk out of to go back to WTO terms all over Commissioners—all the fault of Parliament. Have a again, with South Korea and Mercosur and so on. That quick election, wave a Union Jack and then we will sort must be stopped. out the bumps that will come when we have left.” The I would like to see a Bill in which we put more House must stop that, and use the opportunity. positive steers from this House. We all know what we are against—no deal—but we cannot agree on what we Tomorrow we will debate the merits of the arguments. are for. I do not think that making it a legal obligation We will go on and on. I am dying to intervene in more to seek a customs union or to have some regulatory of the arguments—I have already spoken in this House alignment would make the Prime Minister’s position more than most on Europe, and we all know where we more difficult in Europe; they would just wonder why stand on the leave/remain arguments—but there is one on earth no British leader had asked for that before. I point of real substance that I would like to address will leave that until the proceedings on the Bill. tonight, on which I am afraid for the first time ever the Leader of the House was slightly annoying me. He was If this Parliament does not pass this motion, it will be using what is currently the cliché, extreme right-winger looked back upon with total derision. What sort of a argument, that anybody who wants to stop a no-deal Parliament was it, in the middle of this crisis, that said Brexit is actually reversing the referendum. I think we to the Government—this new Government, this populist exactly reflect the public; Parliament, in its paralysed Government, storming away as it is—“Oh yes, we quite confusion, entirely reflects the division of the public, agree with you: we should not be troubled with this. The where there is no clear majority for anything, so far, Executive, as we have just been told, have absolute except that we are against leaving with no deal. We powers. We are only a debating society, only commenting cannot get a majority for anything else; everything else when we are allowed. Feel free to deliver what you wish has so far been blocked by hard-line right-wing people by 31 October.”? Then we go back to our constituents who do not want any deal with foreigners, and people’s and say, “It is very important that you have us to vote people, who will not vote for anything that involves represent you in Parliament, to look after your interests, leaving the European Union because they want another but as it happens we have given unbridled powers to referendum. I am afraid they have, so far, outnumbered Boris for the next few months on the European question.” the middle. I think more of them should join the You may gather, Mr Speaker, that I am going to vote middle, because I believe, with great reluctance, that the for this motion, with more passion than I usually go obvious compromise, to bring together both public through the Lobby. It is an extremely important evening. opinion and this House, is a soft Brexit where we keep the present economic ties. Several hon. Members rose— My right hon. Friend the Leader of the House says that I am just defying 17 million people. Well, I have not Mr Speaker: Order. I am afraid a five-minute limit on defied 17 million people. I have already compromised. I Back-Bench speeches will now apply. was not in favour of the referendum. I feel very self-justified, looking back on it. I did not vote for it; I made it clear 8.28 pm that I was not going to change my lifelong opinions because of one day’s vote on a simple question on the Helen Jones (Warrington North) (Lab): I rise to support terribly complicated subject of our national destiny. I the motion not only on behalf of the 1.7 million people even voted against invoking article 50; I was guilty of who have signed a petition on our website against a that. Since then, I have accepted that the only way to Prorogation of Parliament until we have made decisions proceed is a soft Brexit: to leave the political union and on Europe, but as someone who is profoundly disturbed stay in those superbly free trade arrangements, which by the contempt for parliamentary democracy that the British Conservative Governments took a leading role Prime Minister has shown in seeking a five-week in creating. I have voted for Brexit three times. If the Bill Prorogation of Parliament. It is profoundly dangerous gets passed, and if we get on to the substance of to our democracy because, as we all know, democracy the thing, I will vote for Brexit again. I have had the never disappears with a bang: it disappears by small, privilege of at least once voting alongside the Prime incremental steps, each one justified by saying, “Things Minister and the Leader of the House in favour of need to be sorted out, things need to be done, and people Brexit, on terms which they now treat with derision. are blocking the way.” I say that as someone who believes that we should implement the decision of the I do not want to listen to conspiracy theories about referendum, but in a representative democracy it is for the Irish backstop. Sadly, I do not think any of the Parliament to decide how that decision should be English public take any interest in Irish political affairs; implemented. nine out of 10 have no idea what the Irish backstop is. It We are struggling to reconcile a plebiscite with a is an entirely closed little debate—but a very important representative democracy. That struggle has not been one, I concede. I am strongly in favour of the Irish made any easier by the misleading statements made backstop unless we could replace it with something that during the referendum—that we would get the easiest is, equally, absolutely guaranteed to preserve the Good trade deal ever,and so on. Brexit cannot be accomplished, 111 European Union (Withdrawal)3 SEPTEMBER 2019 European Union (Withdrawal) 112

[Helen Jones] This House, as I said in an intervention on the Leader of the House, made a decision in the European Union as the Prime Minister seeks to tell us, by a few slogans Referendum Act 2015—a sovereign Act of Parliament— from a self-help book and a rousing chorus of that deliberately gave the British people the right to “Always Look on the Bright Side of Life”. It is complicated, make the decision, not this House. Under the Lisbon and Parliament has to deal with those complications. treaty, which was enacted in 2008, we also agreed the I have no doubt that the Prime Minister sees himself article 50 process in our domestic law, which provided as a democrat. I am told that he keeps a bust of Pericles that, once it had commenced, if there was no decision in Downing Street. I do not know whether he chose within two years, we would leave on exit day. That was Pericles because his foreign policy alienated most of the expressed, ultimately, in the withdrawal Act, section 1 other Greek states or because he prorogued the Athenian of which said that the repeal of the European Communities assembly, but although the Prime Minister sees himself Act 1972 would take place on exit day. as a democrat he speaks like a demagogue. He has It is impossible, in my judgment, to argue that this called parliamentarians “collaborators” with Europe in debate, all the ripping up of conventions and all the seeking to block no deal: he uses the language of a war. things my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House of There are far too many people here trying to relive a Commons said, which I entirely agree with, about this war that they were not only too young to take part in improper procedure for the purposes of achieving an but too young even to remember. That demeans the objective, can just be washed away on the grounds that, sacrifices of those who fought in that war. somehow or other, there is an argument about our not Our job is to take the difficult decisions, and one of having any possibility of leaving without a deal. I the things that we must do is to block a no-deal Brexit, simply say this, Mr Speaker, if I may: this is certainly, as which would be disastrous for this country and for most my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for of our constituents. It would damage not just this Rushcliffe said, a matter of unbelievably important generation but generations to come. Where are all the historical significance. members of the Cabinet who told us that Prorogation We came into the European Union in 1972 on the would be an affront to parliamentary democracy, mad basis of a White Paper. I got out that White Paper only or a ridiculous suggestion? They are silent as the grave. today and it clearly states that we will never give up the If Cabinet Government no longer exists, and it seems veto. Furthermore, not only would we never give up not to, it is for Parliament to ensure that the Government the veto—that was the basis on which we entered into are properly scrutinised. the European Communities Act 1972, which is still the I know that it will be difficult for many on the governing enactment—but to do so would endanger the Government Benches tonight. They have been threatened very fabric of the Community. That is why so many with the loss of the Whip and of their jobs. Many will people across the whole of Europe are voting with their have to break the bonds of loyalty to their own party, feet against this system. Look at what is going on in which we all have, but I beg them tonight to act not in Italy, in Greece and in many other countries. So why their own interests or those of their party, but in those would anyone want to remain in this European Union? of the country. They should remember what Clem Attlee It is autocratic. It is dominated by one country in once said: particular and by the French as well. The bottom line is that it is not a system that allows us to govern ourselves. “If you begin to consider yourself solely responsible to a political party, you’re half-way to a dictatorship.” I simply say this, Mr Speaker. It is clear that the government that takes place under the Council of Ministers The country expects us tonight to act in the national is a system that enables us to be governed by 27 other interest, and it is vital that we do so. member states. The withdrawal agreement, which was never signed, would allow us to be kept in that system of 8.32 pm vassalage, governed by another 27 member states. It is Sir William Cash (Stone) (Con): I have heard an an unacceptable system. Yet if we were to leave with no enormous amount over the last few weeks about the deal—although, I prefer to have a deal—we would be way in which the Government are undermining democracy able to trade globally on our own terms. We would no and our sovereignty. We have just heard my right hon. longer be constrained by the deficit that we run with the and learned Friend the Member for Rushcliffe (Mr Clarke) European Union. We would be able to govern ourselves rubbishing a lot of the arguments that the Government and we would also ensure that we retain Northern have put forward over the last few weeks. Ireland as part of our constitutional status. These are matters that transcend the arguments being I will simply say this: there are those in this House, pushed around in the House today. These are simple however much they like to dress it up—I think I said questions of principle. These are the questions that we this on Second Reading of the European Union need to address. We must be allowed, as we did for (Withdrawal) Act 2018—who have never accepted the centuries before we entered the European Community, idea that we should leave the European Union, with or to govern ourselves. The competences have been so without a deal. They just do not want to leave. I grossly extended that we do not govern ourselves. If we understand that, and I actually pay tribute to some of stay in this European Union, we will never be able to do those who have been entirely consistent about these so. I am against this motion. I hope that the House will arguments, in particular my right hon. and learned vote against it. Friend. He knows that I genuinely feel that. Having said that, I am afraid that I simply cannot 8.37 pm accept, under any circumstances, the burden of the (Grantham and Stamford) (Ind): I rise to argument made by, for example, my right hon. Friend support the motion in the name of my friend, the right the Member for West Dorset (Sir Oliver Letwin). hon. Member for West Dorset (Sir Oliver Letwin). 113 European Union (Withdrawal)3 SEPTEMBER 2019 European Union (Withdrawal) 114

On the morning of 7 February 2017, I woke up in an that is based on convention. Whether we want them to isolation room at King’s College Hospital, where I was or not, they are propelling us down the route towards a receiving chemotherapy. My blood counts were rock written constitution, which is something that none of us bottom and the chances of an infection high. Weak as a should want to do without taking due care and attention. kitten, I got dressed. My friend and parliamentary However, my main objection is political. The hon. neighbour the Brexit Secretary,who was then a Government Member for Warrington North (Helen Jones), who is Whip, met me at the entrance to the ward with a no longer in her place, raised the tension that we have hospital porter and a wheelchair. He took me out to the effectively between a public who voted to leave the Chief Whip’s car and we were driven to Parliament so European Union and a Parliament that—let us face that I could vote for the article 50 Bill. it—if it had its way freely, would want to remain in the Since that moment, I have done everything in my EU. I do not doubt for a moment the legal legitimacy of power to deliver Brexit with a deal that protects jobs a sovereign Parliament to make laws as it sees fit. What and livelihoods and preserves our national unity and I doubt is the moral legitimacy of a Parliament that our international standing. I voted for the former Prime called a referendum, promised to honour the result of it Minister’s withdrawal agreement on three separate and then, three years later, still has not done so. occasions, while the current Prime Minister, Foreign My right hon. Friend the Member for West Dorset Secretary and Leader of the House were all breaking (Sir Oliver Letwin) said that we have all made different the Conservative Whip and voting with the Leader of judgments. Some have voted for a deal, unenthusiastically the Opposition. I worked with colleagues across the —I number myself among those who had strong House to promote an alternative Brexit deal, common reservations but felt that it was the best way to move market 2.0, and secured the support of Labour, the forward. Some have voted against the deal because they SNP and Plaid Cymru for a plan that would have taken want no deal to be the outcome. Some have voted us out of the European Union’s political arrangements, against it because they want there to be no Brexit at all, but kept us in the single market. I am ready to vote for a and I want to address one or two questions to that latter revised withdrawal agreement if the Prime Minister can group, because this is about the political reputation of secure changes through a negotiation with the EU. Like Parliament. many hon. Members from the Labour Benches and elsewhere in this House, I still believe that we need to Those who have had a premeditated campaign to try deliver what a majority of my constituents and of the to thwart the Brexit result, hiding behind the arguments British people voted for in the referendum of 2016. that it is just the deal that they are opposed to, do themselves, Parliament and politics no credit at all. What I will not do is allow a no-deal Brexit. It would That position is worsened if they stood at the general devastate sheep farmers in my constituency. It would be election on a manifesto that explicitly said that they a hammer blow for automotive businesses in my would honour the result of the referendum, but they constituency and across the country. It would put our had absolutely no intention of doing so. That will result Union with Scotland and Northern Ireland in jeopardy, in the contempt of voters. I look forward to the moment and it would be the single most protectionist step taken when those Members who have taken that path meet by any democratic country since the great depression, their voters at the next general election, whenever that raising tariffs and trade barriers between us and our comes. largest market. I am concerned about where this places us in EU Taking this stand cost me the support of my local negotiations. To be successful in a negotiation, both party and in April led me to leave the Conservative sides have to regard it as providing mutual self-interest. party, but I have no regrets. I can look people in the eye, This does not do that. This process will cast us in the knowing that I have done what I believe to be right and role of supplicants, not taking control back to this put the interests of the country before my own comfort House, but giving it to the EU negotiators. That is not or career. How many members of the Cabinet can say in our national interest. We in this political bubble often the same? argue about process and the minutiae and fail to see the At the moment, I am the only independent progressive big picture, which is what our voters are looking at. We Conservative in Parliament. To those brave souls on the did not ask for an opinion from voters; we asked for an Conservative Benches who face expulsion from the instruction. We said we would honour it, and we are party for voting for the motion today, I say this: your honour bound to do so. I urge colleagues not to cast country needs you. Do what you know to be right. Join their vote tonight with the coalition of chaos—for that me on these Benches and together let us build a new will be the result: delay will follow delay. It is time, one force in British politics, and a true home in Parliament way or another, to deliver Brexit. for those who believe in one nation. I make one further point. One of our senior French colleagues said to me, “Liam, you need to leave the EU 8.42 pm following your referendum.” That was a senior pro- European politician. He said, “The problems of political Dr (North Somerset) (Con): I commend fragmentation in France began when we did not honour you for ensuring that new Back Benchers are able the result of the referendum on the European constitution. to take part in the debate at such an early stage, Mr Speaker. It was the beginning of the end of the major parties and I echo the objections raised by the Leader of the the beginning of the rise of the political fringe.” I fear House on constitutional grounds to this motion. I that, if we go down the path suggested tonight, we will believe that denying the Executive the right to uniquely open up a chasm of distrust between Parliament and institute legislation is fraught with danger. Many of the the British people, and that will play only into the hands debates and some of the changes that we have seen in of the political fringes, which is something we will all Parliament in recent times show the fragility of a system come to regret. 115 European Union (Withdrawal)3 SEPTEMBER 2019 European Union (Withdrawal) 116

8.46 pm most of whom—most of the Conservatives who signed this motion; I have checked the list—have voted three times Anna Soubry (Broxtowe) (IGC): It is a pleasure to for Brexit, have found themselves today in the most follow the right hon. Member for North Somerset (Dr Fox), disgraceful of situations. They have been bullied and but at a time when our country should be coming blackmailed and have put their political careers to an together to find a way through this terrible crisis—the end to do the right thing by our country. biggest since the second world war—it is no longer acceptable to continue to seek to divide. We have to As I think was said by my hon. Friend the Member bring people back together, and we will not do that by for Grantham and Stamford, this is about our country, imputing to people views and motives that are simply but it is also about our self-respect. It is about whether not true. we can look ourselves in the mirror in the morning and not be ashamed of what looks back at us. That moment I do not think that my dear friend, the right hon. and when our children, and grandchildren, ask us, “How on learned Member for Rushcliffe (Mr Clarke), and I earth did you stand by and let this disaster of a no deal disagree on anything, except Brexit. As he has rightly happen?”, we, at least, will say that we did the right pointed out, and as my hon. Friend the Member for thing: we put our country, and not our careers, first. Grantham and Stamford (Nick Boles) also pointed out—I do not mean this in a derogatory sense—they are of course Brexiteers. On three occasions, as they perfectly 8.51 pm properly say, they have voted for us to leave the EU. The reason I did not join them in the Lobby—I take grave Mr Dominic Grieve (Beaconsfield) (Con): It is a pleasure exception to this suggestion—is not that I wanted to to follow the right hon. Member for Broxtowe stop Brexit. That will upset many millions of people in (Anna Soubry). I also listened carefully to what my this country, some of whom have come on people’s vote right hon. Friend the Member for North Somerset marches and rallies because they want us to stop Brexit, (Dr Fox) had to say. He made an important point, but I have always taken the view that it is not my role, which has come up again, about the will of the people. having voted for the referendum, for triggering article 50 It is absolutely right that most of us in the House and for the withdrawal agreement, to stop Brexit. I voted to trigger article 50. We did so out of respect for would have voted for the former Prime Minister’s deal the result of the referendum, even if we did not like it. had we agreed to send it back to the British people, who Three and a half years down the track, however, it is I believe are entitled to have the final say, now that we perfectly obvious to many of us that this country is know what Brexit looks like. going towards a very bad outcome. The longer the I have to chide the right hon. Member for North period that passes since the referendum, the more unclear Somerset. The reason that so many people of my view it is, in truth, what the will of the people is. We have no are so fed up is that right hon. and hon. Members such idea. While I have always been willing to see a deal go as him said that this would be the easiest deal this through, I want it to go back to the public, because I am country had ever done—in fact the easiest in the history left with a compelling sense that we are actually taking of all deals. That is what we were told. In fact the people to a destination that they do not want at all. withdrawal agreement was anything but a deal. It was a Unfortunately, a section of my party has become blind Brexit. That is why so many of us did not vote for hijacked by a narrow sector of those who voted to leave it—we did not get the deal we were promised. The and who are simply using the will of the people as an second reason we did not vote for it—certainly in my instrument of potential tyranny against any of those case, but I suspect in the case of most who chose not to who disagree with them. That is clear to me from the vote for the former Prime Minister’s deal—is that on the stream of emails that I routinely receive. I am afraid Government’s own assessments it would have made my that it has now been fuelled by the words of the Prime constituents poorer. It would have reduced the economic Minister, and, indeed—I regret to have to say this, but I prospects of my constituents, including, most importantly, will—by the words of the Leader of the House today. young people, who will bear the brunt of Brexit. I did It was fascinating to listen to the Leader of the not come to this place positively to vote in the full House. I had always imagined that he had marketed knowledge that it would make my constituents’ jobs less himself in politics as an individual who formed part of valuable—that it would make them risky. I make no the grandest tradition of old-fashioned , bones about this: I am quite happy and willing to lose so I was rather surprised when I heard him say that one my job, but I am damned if I am going to see the jobs of of his objections to why the House should do its duty my constituents, and the life chances of their children was that it would interfere with the great set pieces that and grandchildren, reduced. followed a state opening of Parliament. Of course, as a The final thing that I would say is this. I do not want Conservative, I love the great set pieces of our constitution, to repeat all the excellent words about why no deal is so but I do not think that, at a time of national emergency, bad for our country: bad for jobs, bad for peace and my constituents in Beaconsfield would have much regard trade in Northern Ireland, bad for our economy. I just for me if I said that those great set pieces must come want to pay tribute to dear friends with whom I sat on before my doing my duty. those Benches as a member of the Conservative party. I must also say to the Leader of the House, with Today marks a very bleak and, I believe, momentous regret—it was the first time that I had heard him speak day for the Conservative party. What you are seeing, at the Dispatch Box—that I regretted his rather cheap Mr Speaker, is a group of fine parliamentarians, excellent sarcasm at the expense of my right hon. Friend the Members of Parliament, who have been bullied and Member for West Dorset (Sir Oliver Letwin). Let me blackmailed, by contrast to some members of the Cabinet gently point out that he has more months of experience with long histories of defying three-line whips. of high office than my right hon. Friend has days in his Notwithstanding that, this bunch of honourable people, job. The truth is that the Government have decided to 117 European Union (Withdrawal)3 SEPTEMBER 2019 European Union (Withdrawal) 118 pursue a ruthless policy of trying to shut down all simply that we have lost faith in this Government. debate—debate of the most legitimate kind about the Not only have the Government today lost their majority, future of our country and its wellbeing—and in doing but they have also lost the trust of this House. We do so the unconstitutional acts come wholly from the not believe the Prime Minister when he says he is trying Government. I disagree totally with my right hon. Friend to get a deal—we see no evidence of that whatsoever—and the Leader of the House when he says that in some way we do not believe the Prime Minister when he says he this House is acting unconstitutionally in what it does: respects parliamentary democracy, because he is trying our constitution is adaptable, and I am afraid it is to shut down the ability of this House to debate his having to adapt to the reality that the Government do actions and their consequences. not have a majority and have not had one for some time. And that is just one of those things that happens, and it Luke Graham (Ochil and South Perthshire) (Con): is doing it, actually, in a fairly reasonable fashion, The hon. Gentleman is talking about compromise; we although it would be better if we listened politely to had an opportunity to compromise back in spring in a each other and stopped trying to beat each other over vote on the customs union, and we lost by only three the head, as I detect is the practice the Government are votes. Where were the hon. Gentleman and his SNP now adopting. colleagues then? Given the SNP policy on the single Finally, I say this. Obviously I believe that this motion market and customs union, we could have had a is entirely desirable and entirely in keeping with the compromise and avoided this. This is not about time; it House’s proper traditions and is something that should is about compromise—show us you are willing to do it. be passed, and the Bill that follows it, so that the evils of a no-deal Brexit are avoided, because I believe passionately Tommy Sheppard: The hon. Gentleman is wrong, that evil will follow. But I was struck that my right hon. because the seeds of the problem were sown long before Friend the Leader of the House suddenly referred to that. They were sown when a right-wing Conservative “A Man for All Seasons”, I think because Sir Thomas Government decided to seize on the result of the referendum More is one of his heroes. He will recollect that Sir Thomas and use that narrow majority and interpret it for their said, when told that opposition to the King would mean own ends to restructure the country and its international death, “Well, these are but devices to frighten children.” relationships and its economy. Even now, we see a So I am afraid that if he thinks the device of withdrawing situation in which the Government are committed to the Whip this evening is going to change my mind or pursuing the hardest of Brexits, crashing out without a that of my right hon. and hon. Friends, he has got deal if they deem it necessary, and even believing that another thing coming, because it will be treated with the that is the preferred course of action. They know that contempt it deserves. there is no majority for that course of action not only in this House but in the country. Several hon. Members rose— That brings me to the topic of the election, which is an associated matter. There have been suggestions that Mr Speaker: Order. The time limit is now reduced to if we pass this legislation, the Prime Minister will four minutes. immediately throw his toys out of the pram, go to the country and demand a general election. We have already had an echo from the Leader of the House of the gross 8.56 pm that may well come to be reflected in that Tommy Sheppard (Edinburgh East) (SNP): I and my campaign—something that does his character no great party have been consistent over the last four years in service, to be honest. But if that election is going to voting against this country leaving the European Union. come, let us be quite clear that we need to have it before We do that for many reasons, but most of all because this country crashes out of the European Union without that is what the people who elected us to speak for them a deal. We are ready for election: bring it on! But we in this place want: Scotland did not vote for this and must either have it before 31 October or extend that Scotland does not want this. But we have never in these deadline so that we can make a decision as a people and debates suggested that the result of the 2016 Brexit elect a Parliament before this fait accompli is presented referendum should be ignored, set aside or overturned to them. by this Parliament. What we have said is that it is the That would be the legitimate thing to do, and I say to legitimate and proper role of an elected Parliament to the Prime Minister that if he really wants to have an consider the consequences of this course of action, and election, he should not engage in these procedural if in our judgment we believe those consequences to be shenanigans and this duplicity in trying to game Parliament. sufficiently dire, we should allow the opportunity the He should put the proposal for a no-deal Brexit to the people of the country to reconsider the decision they electorate and explain the consequences, and see if that took in 2016, in full knowledge of the facts we now have is what they vote for. When that happens, I will relish available. the prospect of contesting that election, because we What is at risk now is the right of this Parliament to shall not only be contesting that election to stop Brexit exercise that degree of judgment. It is a shame in many and have a reconsideration of that strategy; we shall ways that we have to move this motion tonight and we also be explaining to the people of Scotland that this is have to pass emergency legislation tomorrow. It ought their chance to consider having a different course of to be the other way around: a Government, particularly action from the one laid down by the current Prime a minority Government, ought to be coming to this Minister. I am confident that when we go to the people Chamber trying to find consensus, trying to explain of Scotland, many more than ever before will now themselves and trying to get us behind them, but that is understand the attractiveness of having political not happening. The reason why so many people find it independence over their own affairs and of being able necessary to do what we are going to do tonight is to control their own destiny and establish their own 119 European Union (Withdrawal)3 SEPTEMBER 2019 European Union (Withdrawal) 120

[Tommy Sheppard] part of taking back control? The 17.4 million people were not speaking with a single voice, because they relationships with the rest of the countries in Britain, believed that there was a menu of options. Europe and the world. That is what is coming down the track, and I warn the Government to be aware of it. Sir : I think there was also a menu of options available to those who voted remain, and I 9.2 pm know many people who voted remain who wish that we would now just get on and leave. I do not think the hon. Sir Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con): Lady makes a valid point or, indeed, undermines the I put it to the hon. Member for Edinburgh East (Tommy fundamental point that we now have a constitution in Sheppard) that the very question that he wants to put to which there are competing legitimacies. Some people the British people again is the question that was on the are resting the authority of their argument on the ballot paper in the 2016 referendum. The then Prime representative mandate and some—the Government in Minister made it clear in debates on television that if particular—on the popular vote. the country voted to leave, that decision would be It is at least as much a constitutional outrage that we implemented: article 50 would be invoked and after two are still in the European Union three years after the years we would be out—out of the single market and referendum, and that tomorrow’s potential Bill should out of the customs union. That is what he said, so I do propose to hand the question of how we leave not back not see any need to run the thing again. to this House, but to the European Union to decide— I merely rise on the occasion of this debate to observe [Interruption.] It is absolutely true, because that is that what some people, including you, Mr Speaker, call exactly what clause 3(2) of the draft Bill says. a “constitutional outrage”—it is a little novel for the The bitterness of tonight’s exchanges reflects the Speaker to enter into the debate quite so openly, but breakdown of our shared understanding about which there we are; that is another novelty taking place in our mandate is legitimate: the representative or the direct. constitution—other people refer to as a perfectly normal We now have a constitution containing competing ideas decision. of legitimacy, and unless we are to abandon referendums In truth it is neither, but this controversy reflects the this House should be ready to implement popular decisions evolving and changing nature of the relationship between that it does not like, but it has shown some reluctance to Parliament, Government and people. That is a permanent do so. If we refuse to do so, I again agree with my right evolution in our constitution, and two measures in hon. Friend the Member for North Somerset that that particular have led to a substantial sea change in the will have consequences for the credibility of Parliament relationship between Parliament and the Government. in the eyes of our electors. We will see the revival of The first is the Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011, which alternative political parties, and I fear that this House is was sold to a perhaps rather unsuspecting House as a taking politics in that direction. The sovereignty of means of limiting Executive power, but in the event of a Parliament is not at risk, but our democratic legitimacy statutory no-confidence vote the Act is silent on what certainly is. happens afterwards, except for the 14-day period. The Prime Minister may no longer be able to call a general election, but he is no longer obliged to resign either—at 9.7 pm least not for 14 days. That has the effect of strengthening Gordon Marsden (Blackpool South) (Lab): So, it has the incumbency of a sitting Prime Minister. Of course, come to this tonight: the new Prime Minister and his that is exactly what it was intended to do—it was Ministers have had not just their competence, but their intended to cement the coalition in place—but it has good faith so destroyed across the House that this left the House with the option to wound rather than kill radical but necessary step to preserve parliamentary Governments. I do not think that that has improved the democracy and our futures has been taken. Anyone accountability of Governments to Parliament in any who heard either the Leader of the House or, indeed, way at all. the way in which the Chancellor of the Duchy of The second thing that has happened to cause this sea Lancaster rattled away at a merry pace will recall the change is the increase in the frequency of the use of old words: referendums. That has consequences too, as many warned, “The louder he talked of his honour, the faster we counted our not for the sovereignty of Parliament but, as my right spoons.” hon. Friend the Member for North Somerset (Dr Fox) The truth of the matter is that no deal would drive said, for legitimacy, because we now have competing the NHS into the arms of Donald Trump. No deal legitimacies in our constitution. What we are hearing is would be no good for the people in my constituency a bitter dispute about whether the representative nature who are now experiencing unemployment at twice the of our democracy is a superior legitimacy to the direct— national average. No deal would be no good for the people with the desperate medical issues that the hon. Antoinette Sandbach (Eddisbury) (Con): Will my hon. Member for Central Ayrshire (Dr Whitford) talked Friend give way? about earlier. The list of warnings about a no-deal Brexit grows Sir Bernard Jenkin: I will. longer. Warnings about the supply and prices of fresh food, essential medicines, and chaos on the roads and at Antoinette Sandbach: Does my hon. Friend recall ports after Halloween come not from Marxists, Trotskyists, that the Vote Leave campaign said that MPs in this or left-wingers, but from such radical organisations as Parliament would decide which Brexit model—Norway, the British Retail Consortium and the Road Haulage Switzerland or so on—would apply and that that was Association. 121 European Union (Withdrawal)3 SEPTEMBER 2019 European Union (Withdrawal) 122

This is no longer just about Brexit or even whether and reduced us from a proud sovereign Parliament to a people voted leave or remain; it is about the United mere debating club to be dismissed when it becomes Kingdom’s future as a progressive democracy. We really inconvenient. must take that into account, but we also have to take If the Government succeed this week, what is to stop into account the situation of individual constituents. A the Prime Minister doing it again in the future? What is man wrote to me and said: to stop the Leader of the Opposition, should he come “My father is rather ill these days and relies on a variety of to power, and I hope that never comes to pass? Precedent medication. I am concerned what the impact of a no-deal Brexit matters, and so does motive. The Government’s claim would have on the supply of this medication.” that Prorogation is to enable them to put forward new We have heard from those who have no axe to grind that domestic legislation is clearly nonsense—a fig leaf to that is absolutely the case. hide their attempt to evade accountability. I have had a letter, as many of us will have had, from This House has stood as the defender of our liberties an ordinary constituent: for centuries. The historian Robert Saunders put it best: “Please can you help with a no deal Brexit as having our NHS “the UK government shines with borrowed light: a light that is as important to us as food on our plates. It’s hard to survive as it comes *solely* from the consent of our elected representatives. is…I cut back on food and power, have no holidays. Please sort Shut that down, and our democracy is plunged into darkness.” this out”. It has indeed been plunged into darkness. We are in That is an ordinary constituent who is engaged not with darkness. the finer constitutional points that the Leader of the It is claimed that this Prorogation is a normal House manages to trim on a sixpence, but with the Prorogation, but it is not. This Parliament would have everyday bread and butter of daily living in a town like expected the Leader of the House to table a recess motion, many others in the north of England where people feel which would have asked us to agree to the party conference left behind and vulnerable, and where to satisfy the recess. That motion has never been put to us. As Members interests of a small group of cronies around the Prime of Parliament, we have never been asked to agree to the Minister this Government are trying to stamp down on recess, and it is highly likely that we would not have everything that is said. done so given the scale of the crisis that faces our There is no evidence, not even a sniff, of the Government country. having presented any proposals to the EU. The Prime The Leader of the House claims to speak for 17.4 million Minister fancies himself a classicist. Well, what he has people. Well, I want to tell him about a constituent of been doing and the way in which he has treated his own mine. I was on the train, going back to my constituency, Back Benchers is in the tradition of the proscriptions of when a constituent approached me and said, “You’re ancient Rome. my MP. I voted for leave, because I wanted to give The Prime Minister also fancies himself an admirer a kicking. I did not really think it of Churchill. He should remember that Churchill told would go through. Please, now, do something to change us that the first duty of a Member is to do what he that.” thinks, in his faithful and disinterested judgment to the I have voted three times for the withdrawal agreement. honour and safety of this Britain. That is what patriotism, Three times I have seen Members from my party vote real patriotism, is about, and the way in which this that agreement down, even though their Conservative Prime Minister has disgracefully used the Prorogation Prime Minister told them that it complied with our process blunts the interests of this House and of the manifesto commitment to an orderly exit. A constituent British people. has written to me this evening to say, “The Leader of the House has rebelled against a Conservative-led Those are not the attributes of a British Prime Minister. Government more than 100 times and he has been I would say they are the attributes of a tinpot despot or rewarded with a place on the Front Bench.” Yet my autocrat, except this Prime Minister might think it right hon. Friend the Member for South West Hertfordshire flattered him. No, he is a petulant man-child who is (Mr Gauke), who has never voted against the Government, unable to get his way with this House, which is why he is is going to be expelled from the party. What times we trying to shut down debate through Prorogation. That live in. I will be voting for this motion. is why we should support this motion tonight. 9.15 pm 9.11 pm Kate Hoey (Vauxhall) (Lab): I will not support this Antoinette Sandbach (Eddisbury) (Con): This Parliament motion, just as I did not support the motion the last is at the very heart of our national story and our shared time Parliament tried to change the way we work history, and it is what the Prime Minister’s great idol, constitutionally. We were told then that it was a one-off, , called the “cockpit of the nation.” but we are now in our second or third one-off. If this To seek to bar the door to that cockpit as the nation goes through tonight, we will be debating a Bill tomorrow. flies into one of the biggest constitutional storms in its If we look at it in detail—I know we will have that history is an unsettling thing for a Government to do. debate tomorrow—we will see that it makes it clear that It may not be illegal or unconstitutional, but it is not it will give even more power to the European Union how a strong, responsible Government would conduct over how long we should have any kind of extension. themselves. I know this is only a rumour but there is usually some Europhobic conspiracy theorists occasionally claim truth in rumours, so I was concerned to hear today that that the EU wants to reduce the House of Commons to some of the people who drafted this motion for the Bill a mere council chamber.I am afraid that if the Government took advice from EU lawyers. If that happened, it is achieve their aims this week, they will have gone further shocking. I know there will be people in this House who 123 European Union (Withdrawal)3 SEPTEMBER 2019 European Union (Withdrawal) 124

[Kate Hoey] of all parties: we cannot legislate no deal away; we can only vote for a deal or revoke article 50. If revocation is think that there is nothing wrong with that, as they what is sought—I know that some Members would want to be as close as possible to the EU and there is favour that—let us have that debate and say so. Those nothing wrong in taking advice from it, but I believe who voted as part of the overwhelming majority for the that if this motion is passed tonight the Bill tomorrow referendum and to trigger article 50 can then explain will humiliate this Parliament. why they have changed their minds. The question of We heard a lot about constitutional outrage when the revocation was tested in the indicative votes and heavily announcement was made about the Queen’s Speech. defeated. I venture to say that there is no majority for Four or five extra days have been added to a recess that revocation in the House, so all that this procedure seeks we all knew about just before the House got up. If people to do is to delay—to kick the can further down the road had felt strongly about this, they could have acted and in the hope that something will turn up. got that discussion then. I genuinely believe that those In essence, no plan is proposed in the motion. By four or five extra days are much less of a constitutional contrast, the Government are pursuing a strategy based outrage than what we are setting a precedent for today, on the only thing that has commanded a majority in which would take away powers from the Government. this House: the Brady amendment on alternative Our side will be in government one day—perhaps a arrangements to replace the backstop. It will be said general election is coming; we will be in that same that the EU has no intention of replacing it, but the EU position, and people should be careful. What we are is watching and waiting to see what we do here. It has saying today to people is, “What is the point of voting?” no incentive to move for as long as it thinks that They voted to leave and leave won. As many people Parliament will destroy the Government’s negotiating have said, there was nothing on the ballot paper that position or cancel Brexit altogether. If we in this House said, “We did not vote with a no-deal.” But there was declare in advance that we must come to an agreement, also nothing on that ballot paper that said we wanted to the Government’s negotiating position is destroyed and be half in or half out, that we wanted to pay £39 billion the EU will never have an incentive to move. Rather or that we wanted to do all those things that were in the than banishing no deal, then, this whole scheme makes withdrawal agreement. We voted to leave. People voted it impossible to achieve one, and in so doing puts off the to leave. I know that many people who will vote in this day of reckoning even further. But that day cannot be House tonight are remainers who have accepted the avoided forever. result, but the reality is that many colleagues, particularly There is only one way to avoid no deal and to achieve on my side, actually want to stop Brexit. They see now a deal, and paradoxically that is to be ready and willing using “no deal”as almost being synonymous with stopping to leave without one. Only if we are clear about that Brexit—that is the real truth about what is going on. does the Prime Minister stand a chance. I accept that The right hon. and learned Member for Rushcliffe that readiness causes disquiet among so many of my (Mr Clarke) has been honest from the beginning. He is right hon. and hon. Friends tonight, but I urge all those not in his seat now but he talked tonight about “tearing friends who, like me, want to see a deal, to come with us the country apart”. What on earth is another extension and give the Prime Minister the unequivocal backing going to do, other than tear the country apart even that he needs, because that is the only path to the deal more? What on earth are we going to gain by another that we all want to see. To vote against the Government extension that we have not already been able to achieve tonight is not to vote against no deal; to vote against the in the past two and a half years? What will this actually Government tonight is to vote against even the possibility achieve? of a deal—against the chance of a deal and even the If we vote for the motion tonight, we will send a glimmer of a deal. The motion and the Bill it foreshadows signal to all those people who voted to leave that achieve nothing more than a delay, which in turn achieves we know best—that we are being arrogant and that we nothing more than to sow more division and discord—the know best about how the future outside the European division and discord that is doing such damage to our Union will work. That is going to come home and hit country’s social fabric. right through, particularly to my party, but to the Conservative party as well, when we get a general 9.24 pm election. Any Labour party Member who did not vote Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): I am for a general election would look absolutely ridiculous. pleased to speak in favour of the motion, which would Bring on an election and let the people show what they enable us to pass a Bill tomorrow to prevent our crashing really want. out of the EU with no deal at the end of October. Let us remember why we are at this point. This 9.20 pm discussion is happening now because the Prime Minister () (Con): It is an honour to is running scared of democracy. The Prime Minister follow the hon. Member for Vauxhall (Kate Hoey). knows that his reckless no-deal Brexit will never get the I rise to oppose the motion, and I shall do so by support of this House, but instead of his having the considering what it sets out to achieve. The motion does courage to make his case here and put himself up to not prevent no deal; it simply requires the Prime Minister, scrutiny, Parliament is going to be suspended—brushed if a deal is not agreed, to ask for an extension and to aside as an inconvenience to an Executive who are, accept it. That does not avoid no deal; it simply pushes frankly, lurching out of control. further away the point at which we in this House have to I am proud that so many brave colleagues inside this make a decision. The people we represent are expecting House and so many of the public outside it are saying us to make a decision. It is what we are here for. It is so loudly and clearly that they will not stand for this what they are crying out for us to do. I say to Members Prime Minister’s blatant power grab, that they will not 125 European Union (Withdrawal)3 SEPTEMBER 2019 European Union (Withdrawal) 126 stand for a no-deal Brexit being rammed through this no deal, which is actually a series of mini deals. I am House and that they will stand up to make sure that this sure that the former Chancellor of the Exchequer and legislature does what it is meant to do, which is to hold my right hon. Friend the Member for West Dorset this Executive—this feral, out-of-control Executive—to (Sir Oliver Letwin) have been engaged in negotiations at account. a far more senior level than I, but I do find it a little There has been a lot of talk about democracy tonight. bizarre that we could seek to bind the hands of our [Interruption.] I have to say that the body language of Government at this point if those right hon. Gentlemen the Leader of the House this evening has been so trust the people in power, and I have to say that I do. contemptuous of this House and of the people. For the I was engaged a bit in some of the negotiations with benefit of Hansard, he has been spread out across three tribal Afghan leaders. I also conducted village negotiations seats. He is laid out as if this is something that is very in the Basra marshes in 2008 and 2009. Showing the boring for him to listen to. He has been lecturing us limits of our negotiating power and showing what we about democracy, but we will have none of it. This were willing or not willing to do would have fatally Government have no mandate for the vicious form of undermined some of the conversations that happened Brexit they are pursuing. It was never on the ballot to try to protect British troops and to try to stop paper. More than that, the Chancellor of the Duchy of ourselves being attacked. Therefore, binding the hands Lancaster said as recently as March: of the Government as they seek to negotiate a better “We did not vote to leave without a deal: that wasn’t the deal is counterproductive, although I understand the message of the campaign I helped to lead.” concerns. The reason why this debate is so bad tempered Let us hear no more of this posturing that, somehow, is that it has gone on for three years. We hear tedious those on the Government Benches are standing up for clichés, such as “a blind Brexit”, “a Tory Brexit” and … the people and that we are not. Those of us on the “I’m not here to stop Brexit, but ”. The hon. Member Opposition Benches, particularly those who have been for Vauxhall (Kate Hoey) said that many people on the arguing for a people’s vote from the very start, are Opposition Benches were using this no-deal Brexit motion precisely the ones who are standing up for the people simply as another means to stop Brexit. and want their voices to be heard in this debate. My right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Time is short, and I want to make two more very Beaconsfield (Mr Grieve) quoted Thomas More. I have quick points. The first is that, in all of this debate about been in this House for two years, and I feel like quoting process and procedure, we are in danger of forgetting Macbeth: what a no-deal outcome actually means for the people “Tomorrow, and tomorrow, and tomorrow, of this country. What it means, as we know from Creeps in this petty pace from day to day”. Operation Yellowhammer, is shortages of food and That is how I feel, because all we talk about is Brexit. I fuel. It means people unable to get their life-saving want us to get on and talk about lots of other things medicines. It also means a nightmare for people in that are important to us. In fact—if Members do not Northern Ireland. I pay tribute to the hon. Member for mind me mixing my cultural references—it feels like North Down (Lady Hermon), who has made that case groundhog day. so many times. How dare we, in this Chamber, think Pro-EU campaigners are concerned about protecting that we are going to rip up the Good Friday agreement the rights of Parliament. I find that slightly ironic and that it is nothing to be concerned about. There is coming from people who want to stay in the European everything to be concerned about in that. Union, which would do far more damage to the rights I also want to say a word about the 3 million—the of Parliament than this Government ever would. people who have made their lives here in this country I want a deal, but I accept that the most important expecting that their contribution would be valued, instead thing is to deliver, in order to have trust in politics. I am of which they are now in an intolerable limbo, not also aware that neither side is perfect, and that there are knowing whether their rights will be upheld. people now sitting on the Government Front Bench Finally,I want to make a point that I think is important, who could have voted for a deal but did not, just as but that some may feel is boring. One of the many there are people on the Opposition Benches who could reasons why we are in this crisis is that we do not have a have voted for a deal but did not. But we need to deliver codified written constitution. It is only the unwritten, on a deal. The reason I am against the motion is that it uncodified understandings that protect the body politic would provide another extension, and then we would from regressing to government with minimal checks, simply continue in a debate that would become endless balances and accountability. Up to now we have had to and tedious. We need to bring this to an end so that we depend on people playing by the rules. Well, now we can deliver on our manifesto commitments in other have a Government who are not playing by the rules. areas to the British people. We now need more than ever a written constitution drawn up by a democratic citizens’ convention that will 9.31 pm put people at the heart of our politics for the first time in UK history. Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD): Following the comments of the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas), I am sure that it would be possible to 9.28 pm provide the Leader of the House with a pillow to make Mr Bob Seely (Isle of Wight) (Con): The crux of the him more comfortable, as he seems to be struggling debate tonight is whether we seek to bind and obstruct during the debate. our Government in a critical period, as they seek options I rise to support the right hon. Member for West between the current withdrawal deal, which has been Dorset (Sir Oliver Letwin). We have a simple objective: rejected three times by lots of people in this House, and to block no deal and secure a resolution to the crisis and 127 European Union (Withdrawal)3 SEPTEMBER 2019 European Union (Withdrawal) 128

[Tom Brake] Brexit: deal, no deal, indicative votes, Cooper-Letwin, Boles, the withdrawal agreement, the negotiations, the chaos that the country faces. A series of Government renegotiations and all the attempts by the former Prime reports have set out the consequences of no deal, the Minister, along with a group of utterly brilliant and most recent of which is on Operation Yellowhammer. It dedicated colleagues, Ministers, civil servants and special refers to medicine, fuel and food shortages, and increased advisers to ensure that this country left the EU with a risks on the border between Northern Ireland and deal. I did so not just because it was my job, but because Ireland. The Government have been so shocked and I genuinely, completely and utterly believed that for my embarrassed that they have attempted to sanitise the constituents, for this country, for our Union, for its report—in fact, they have tried to make it disappear. businesses and for our economy, it was the only rational However,it is in the interests of all our constituents—apart, and sensible thing to do, and I still do. But I do not of course, from those who are busy shorting the pound—to support the motion in the name of my right hon. Friend block no deal. We are not talking, as Ministers do, the Member for West Dorset (Sir Oliver Letwin) and I about bumps in the road; we are talking about job cannot vote for it this evening. losses and business closures. In my opinion, if we MPs—from all parts of this The Government claim that taking no deal off the House—truly want to act in the national interest, as I table would damage our prospects of securing a deal. know most of us do, we must support the Prime Minister The first problem I have with that argument is that and this Government in their efforts to renegotiate the walking away without a deal is not like walking out of deal and leave the European Union on 31 October. To the car showroom without a car; in a no-deal scenario, be able to do that, the EU must know that we are we will be forced to leave with the banger with bald serious about leaving, and that means keeping no deal tyres and a chipped windscreen. The second problem, on the table. If we support the motion before us tonight, as set out by the right hon. Member for West Dorset, is we will know—the world will know—that we are not that no deal will damage us far more than it will our EU serious at all, and where then is the motivation and friends. With no deal, the EU will get a headache, but impetus to get this done? we will get severe angina. To those on the Opposition Benches who claim that The final problem is that there is no evidence that the they would do anything to stop no deal, I ask this Government are seeking a deal. The EU-UK website simple question: why didn’t you? When the question lists three documents since June that touch on the issue. was brought before the House three times, why didn’t There have been a couple of calls between our Prime you? It is no good protesting that the deal was not good Minister and Jean-Claude Juncker. There has been our enough, that there were no guarantees or that, “If only chief negotiator, David Frost, going to Brussels, but he we had known what was going to be in the withdrawal has said that under no circumstances would he even agreement Bill, we would have voted for it.” If those allow a technical extension to article 50, which of course Members were genuinely serious about doing anything we all know would be required if the Government were to stop no deal, they would have voted for a deal, so I in fact to secure a deal. I have asked colleagues in the ask them to stop pulling the wool over the eyes of the , and we have asked Guy Verhofstadt, public and to be honest with voters. whether there is any evidence whatsoever that the To my friends and colleagues on the Government Government are seeking a deal, and the answer is that Benches, for whom I have so much respect and for there is total radio silence from the UK Government on whose support for the former Prime Minister over the deal negotiations. Of course, the charming Dominic last year I am personally very grateful, I say this: please Cummings—the man who has staff escorted off the do not undermine this Prime Minister as so often this premises by armed police officers—let the cat out of the House of Commons undermined the last; please give bag when he said that the negotiations are a “sham”. our negotiators the support they need to get the changes In conclusion, tonight we must act, first, to stop a to the deal that we need; and please do not allow to be calamitous, jobs-destroying, influence-sapping no-deal taken off the table the one thing that is pushing both Brexit; secondly, to force the Government to find a way sides towards achieving just that. out of a paralysis that is destroying our country’scredibility, tearing communities apart and stopping the Government Mr Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con): I fondly remember dealing with the real problems we face as a nation; being in the room with my hon. Friend on a number of thirdly, to allow the people to express their views on the occasions, and I very much look forward to his memoirs appropriateness of a no-deal Brexit; and finally, to on all these subjects. demonstrate that the UK Parliament will resist the shutdown of our democracy and the authoritarian power grab of a rogue minority Government. Andrew Bowie: I will give my hon. Friend a signed copy when I get around to writing them. I know that 9.34 pm many of my friends will be voting against the Government and against their party tonight. Andrew Bowie (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (Con): It has been quite a long time since I have had the Anna Soubry: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? opportunity to speak in the Chamber. Well, I have spoken—as I am sure you will attest, Mr Speaker—but mainly from a sedentary position. The reason, of course, Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) is that for the vast majority of the past year, I had the (LD): Will the hon. Gentleman give way? privilege of serving the former Prime Minister as her Parliamentary Private Secretary, meaning that for the Andrew Bowie: I will not give way; there is far too majority of the past 259 days, I have lived and breathed little time. 129 European Union (Withdrawal)3 SEPTEMBER 2019 European Union (Withdrawal) 130

For many Members, this will be the first time they and we have Edinburgh. What about our R&D and top have ever voted against this party, after decades of loyal universities? In aggregate, those are more important service to it. I know that many have wrestled with their than WTO tariffs of 3% to 5%. consciences as I have wrestled with mine, and I hear If proof of the pudding were required, with all the their arguments. This is not an easy decision for anybody, talk in the past few years about no deal being better but I will be supporting my Prime Minister this evening. than a bad deal, industry has been fully aware that no We need to get this deal renegotiated. We need to get deal has been a distinct possibility and what have we this done. We need to leave the EU. Then we can at long seen economically? Wehave seen record low unemployment, last move the country forward. record manufacturing output and record investment. This country attracted more inward investment last 9.38 pm year than France and Germany put together. It comes Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con): I rise down to economic reality.I am afraid that some Members in opposition to this motion and in support of my of the House, in coming to their decision tonight, have Prime Minister, essentially for two reasons. The first is not considered the economic facts. that there is more than a whiff of arrogance in this motion. Too many remain MPs in this place will use any 9.44 pm device to try to block Brexit. There are honourable Robert Neill (Bromley and Chislehurst) (Con): I have remain Members, but I am afraid that there are too been a member of my party for 50 years, and throughout many who are not. The decision was delegated by this that time, I have believed in our membership of the place to the people, and they made their decision very European Union. I campaigned for that in the referendum. clearly. We have been kicking this can down the road for My constituency voted to remain in the European Union, three years and to many outside this Westminster bubble, albeit by the very narrowest of margins, but my side lost enough is enough. I remind the House that the majority and I accept therefore that we need to leave the European of Members who are going to support the motion voted Union. I want to leave with a deal. People in my in favour of triggering article 50, which said, very constituency and businesses—those who work hard to simply, that we would be leaving the EU with or without build wealth in this country—are genuinely concerned a deal. We have twice extended that time line, and that is about the impacts of leaving without a deal. Their why people outside this place are getting very frustrated concerns are not illegitimate: they are real, and they with many colleagues here tonight. need to be addressed. Equally, they have real and genuine Apart from the arrogance, this decision is ill-informed. concerns about prolonged uncertainty,and we as politicians It will make a bad deal more likely. Anyone who has need to weigh heavily the damage perhaps done negotiated in business or with any organisations will reputationally to our body politic. know that if the other side believes that one is not These are not easy matters. We have had a great many prepared to walk away, it will make for a worse deal—it statements of bold certainty in this debate and too is a simple fact of life. Most of us in this place prefer a many other things—perhaps too much hyperbole and good trade deal to no deal, but the guaranteed way of not enough pragmatism. My conclusion, to try to reconcile getting a bad deal is to take no deal off the table. that narrow margin in my constituency and those conflicting Business people in this House, and many who have but genuine concerns of my constituents, has been to negotiated deals, will understand that. vote three times to leave with a deal. I wish others had This decision is also ill-informed from an economic done so as well. point of view.No deal has been derided without examining If I believed that passing this motion today would a lot of the economic facts. Time does not allow here make it easier for us to achieve a deal, I would support and now for those points to be made— and [Interruption]— it, but I do not believe that it does. You will know, too many people are talking anyway, so they would not Mr Speaker, that I have not been afraid to defy the hear them. I would merely suggest that people reflect on Whip of my party in the past when I thought it right the fact that half of the EU’s top 10 trading partners and proper to do so. But after real heart searching and trade on WTO no-deal terms with parties outside the thought, I have concluded that it would not have that EU—it is a simple fact of life. effect, and that it might, regrettably, have the contrary Jamie Stone: I sincerely hope that I am not seen to be effect, of reducing the Government’s leverage in an arrogant Member of this House. I always try to negotiations. If we are to get a deal, the only point that represent the interests of the far north of Scotland. Will we will realistically do that now is at the Council on the hon. Gentleman, and others in the Chamber, at 17 and 18 October. I do not wish to bind the hands of least accept that a no-deal Brexit would ruin the crofters the Government in the run-up to that. and sheep farmers in my constituency, and that would It may be a narrowing window of opportunity to get lead to the second highland clearances? a deal. We may not succeed, but for the sake of my constituents, and to reflect that narrow margin in my Mr Baron: If there is no deal—most of us in this constituency and in the country and try to find a means place want a good trade deal—there would be tens of of us moving on together, I believe that we should try to billions of pounds to help those sectors of the economy seize that opportunity. I do not impugn for one second and industry to readjust, as we have seen in previous the motives or the integrity of those who have proposed economic cycles. It is a fact of life. this motion—many of them are among my dearest and Too many people, not just in this place but outside, best friends in this House—but I believe it would be ignore the fact that investment and jobs are about mistaken to support it. For that reason, I will support comparative advantage. It is about how competitive our the Government. I urge my right hon. and hon. Friends tax rates are and how flexible our labour markets are, to think again before we cross the Rubicon. For 50 years, and what our financial expertise is like—we have London many of us have worked together. I hope we can continue 131 European Union (Withdrawal)3 SEPTEMBER 2019 European Union (Withdrawal) 132

[Robert Neill] Brake, rh Tom Evans, Chris Brennan, Kevin Farrelly, Paul to do so in the future, and I hope that they will reflect Brine, Steve Farron, Tim one last time before taking the step of voting against the Brock, Deidre Fellows, Marion Government tonight. Brown, Alan Field, rh Frank Brown, Lyn Fitzpatrick, Jim 9.47 pm Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Fletcher, Colleen Bryant, Chris Flint, rh Caroline Chris Philp (Croydon South) (Con): For three long Buck, Ms Karen Forbes, Lisa years, we have talked about, debated and voted repeatedly Burden, Richard Fovargue, Yvonne on Brexit in this House, and yet here we stand after Burgon, Richard Foxcroft, Vicky three years not having reached any firm resolution. In Burt, rh Alistair Frith, James supporting the motion before the House this evening, Butler, Dawn Furniss, Gill we would simply prolong even further the uncertainty Byrne, rh Liam Gaffney, Hugh that our country and our businesses are experiencing, Cable, rh Sir Vince Gapes, Mike which my hon. Friend the Member for Bromley and Cadbury, Ruth Gardiner, Barry Chislehurst (Robert Neill) described in his excellent Cameron, Dr Lisa Gauke, rh Mr David speech. We have a responsibility, having been elected in Campbell, rh Sir Alan George, Ruth Campbell, Mr Ronnie Gibson, Patricia 2017 on manifestos to respect the referendum result, to Carden, Dan Gill, Preet Kaur do so, to stop prevaricating, to stop kicking the can Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Glindon, Mary down the road and, one way or another, to reach a Champion, Sarah Godsiff, Mr Roger definitive conclusion. The motion before the House Chapman, Douglas Goodman, Helen does not do that. It simply prevaricates even further. Chapman, Jenny Grady, Patrick Some Opposition Members have been very clear about Charalambous, Bambos Grant, Peter what they want, and I respect that. My neighbour, the Cherry, Joanna Gray, Neil right hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington Clark, rh Greg Green, Kate (Tom Brake), and the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Greening, rh Justine (Caroline Lucas) have both been clear previously and Clwyd, rh Ann Greenwood, Lilian this evening that they would rather remain in the European Coaker, Vernon Greenwood, Margaret Coffey, Ann Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Union and that they certainly do not want a no-deal Cooper, Julie Griffith, Nia exit. I disagree with that view, but at least they have Cooper, Rosie Grogan, John clarity in expressing it. They also say that they do not Cooper, rh Yvette Gwynne, Andrew want to leave with no deal, but those who adopt that Corbyn, rh Jeremy Gyimah, Mr Sam view have only two choices: either to accept any deal Cowan, Ronnie Haigh, Louise that is offered up, no matter how bad, or to remain, and Coyle, Neil Hamilton, Fabian I do not think either of those options is acceptable. Crausby, Sir David Hammond, rh Mr Philip Remaining, when the country voted to leave and the Crawley, Angela Hammond, Stephen main two parties were elected on manifestos to leave, is Creagh, Mary Hanson, rh David wholly unacceptable. There is only one sensible option, Creasy, Stella Hardy, Emma as my hon. Friend the Member for Bromley and Chislehurst Cruddas, Jon Harman, rh Ms Harriet eloquently pointed out— Cryer, John Harrington, Richard Cummins, Judith Harris, Carolyn Mr Nicholas Brown (Newcastle upon Tyne East) (Lab): Cunningham, Alex Hayes, Helen claimed to move the closure (Standing Order No. 36). Cunningham, Mr Jim Hayman, Sue Daby, Janet Healey, rh John Question put forthwith, That the Question be now Dakin, Nic Hendrick, Sir Mark put. Davey, rh Sir Edward Hendry, Drew Question agreed to. David, Wayne Hepburn, Mr Stephen Main Question put accordingly. Davies, Geraint Hermon, Lady Day, Martyn Hill, Mike The House proceeded to a Division. De Cordova, Marsha Hillier, Meg Mr Speaker: I ask the Serjeant at Arms to investigate De Piero, Gloria Hobhouse, Wera Debbonaire, Thangam Hodge, rh Dame Margaret the delay in the Aye Lobby. Dent Coad, Emma Hodgson, Mrs Sharon The House having divided: Ayes 328, Noes 301. Dhesi, Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Hollern, Kate Division No. 439] [9.50 pm Docherty-Hughes, Martin Hosie, Stewart Dodds, Anneliese Howarth, rh Sir George AYES Dodds, Jane Huq, Dr Rupa Doughty, Stephen Hussain, Imran Abbott, rh Ms Diane Benn, rh Hilary Dowd, Peter James, Margot Abrahams, Debbie Benyon, rh Richard Ali, Rushanara Berger, Luciana Drew, Dr David Jardine, Christine Allen, Heidi Betts, Mr Clive Dromey, Jack Jarvis, Dan Allin-Khan, Dr Rosena Black, Mhairi Duffield, Rosie Johnson, Diana Amesbury, Mike Blackford, rh Ian Eagle, Ms Angela Jones, Darren Antoniazzi, Tonia Blackman, Kirsty Eagle, Maria Jones, Gerald Ashworth, Jonathan Blackman-Woods, Dr Roberta Edwards, Jonathan Jones, Graham P. Bailey, Mr Adrian Blomfield, Paul Efford, Clive Jones, Helen Bardell, Hannah Boles, Nick Elliott, Julie Jones, rh Mr Kevan Bebb, Guto Brabin, Tracy Ellman, Dame Louise Jones, Ruth Beckett, rh Margaret Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Esterson, Bill Jones, Sarah 133 European Union (Withdrawal)3 SEPTEMBER 2019 European Union (Withdrawal) 134

Jones, Susan Elan Pennycook, Matthew Vaizey, rh Mr Edward Williams, Hywel Kane, Mike Perkins, Toby Vaz, rh Keith Williams, Dr Paul Keeley, Barbara Phillips, Jess Vaz, Valerie Wilson, Phil Kendall, Liz Phillipson, Bridget Walker, Thelma Wishart, Pete Khan, Afzal Pidcock, Laura Watson, Tom Wollaston, Dr Sarah Killen, Ged Platt, Jo West, Catherine Yasin, Mohammad Kinnock, , Luke Western, Matt Zeichner, Daniel Kyle, Peter Pound, Stephen Whitehead, Dr Alan Tellers for the Ayes: Laird, Lesley Powell, Lucy Whitfield, Martin Chris Elmore and Lake, Ben Qureshi, Yasmin Whitford, Dr Philippa Stephen Gethins Lamb, rh Norman Rashid, Faisal Lammy, rh Mr David Rayner, Angela Lavery, Ian Reed, Mr Steve NOES Law, Chris Rees, Christina Adams, Nigel Davis, rh Mr David Lee, Karen Reeves, Ellie Afolami, Bim Dinenage, Caroline Lee, Dr Phillip Reeves, Rachel Afriyie, Adam Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Leslie, Mr Chris Reynolds, Emma (Proxy vote Aldous, Peter Docherty, Leo Letwin, rh Sir Oliver cast by Mr Pat McFadden) Allan, Lucy Dodds, rh Nigel Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma Reynolds, Jonathan Amess, Sir David Donaldson, rh Sir Jeffrey M. Lewis, Clive Rimmer, Ms Marie Argar, Edward Donelan, Michelle Linden, David Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Atkins, Victoria Dorries, Ms Nadine Lloyd, Stephen Rodda, Matt Austin, Ian Double, Steve Lloyd, Tony Rowley, Danielle Bacon, Mr Richard Dowden, rh Oliver Long Bailey, Rebecca Ruane, Chris Badenoch, Mrs Kemi Doyle-Price, Jackie Lucas, Caroline Russell-Moyle, Lloyd Baker, Mr Steve Drax, Richard Lucas, Ian C. Ryan, rh Joan Baldwin, Harriett Duddridge, James Lynch, Holly Sandbach, Antoinette Barclay, rh Stephen Duguid, David MacNeil, Angus Brendan Saville Roberts, rh Liz Baron, Mr John Duncan, rh Sir Alan Madders, Justin Shah, Naz Bellingham, Sir Henry Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Mahmood, Mr Khalid Sharma, Mr Virendra Beresford, Sir Paul Dunne, rh Mr Philip Mahmood, Shabana Sheerman, Mr Barry Berry, rh Jake Ellis, Michael Malhotra, Seema Sheppard, Tommy Blackman, Bob Ellwood, rh Mr Tobias Marsden, Gordon Sherriff, Paula Blunt, Crispin Elphicke, Charlie Martin, Sandy Shuker, Mr Gavin Bone, Mr Peter Eustice, George Maskell, Rachael Siddiq, Tulip Bottomley, Sir Peter Evans, Mr Nigel Matheson, Christian Skinner, Mr Dennis Bowie, Andrew Evennett, rh Sir David Mc Nally, John Slaughter, Andy Bradley, Ben Fabricant, Michael McCabe, Steve Smeeth, Ruth Bradley, rh Karen Fallon, rh Sir Michael McCarthy, Kerry Smith, Angela Brady, Sir Graham Field, rh Mark McDonagh, Siobhain Smith, Cat Braverman, Suella (Proxy vote Ford, Vicky McDonald, Andy Smith, Eleanor cast by Mr Steve Baker) Foster, Kevin McDonald, Stewart Malcolm Smith, Jeff Brereton, Jack Fox, rh Dr Liam McDonald, Stuart C. Smith, Laura Bridgen, Andrew Francois, rh Mr Mark McDonnell, rh John Smith, Nick Brokenshire, rh James Frazer, Lucy McFadden, rh Mr Pat Smith, Owen Bruce, Fiona Freeman, George McGinn, Conor Smyth, Karin Buckland, rh Robert Freer, Mike McGovern, Alison Snell, Gareth Burghart, Alex Fysh, Mr Marcus McInnes, Liz Soames, rh Sir Nicholas Burns, Conor Gale, rh Sir Roger McKinnell, Catherine Sobel, Alex Cairns, rh Alun Garnier, Mark McMahon, Jim Soubry, rh Anna Campbell, Mr Gregory Ghani, Ms Nusrat McMorrin, Anna Spellar, rh John Cartlidge, James Gibb, rh Nick Mearns, Ian Starmer, rh Keir Cash, Sir William Gillan, rh Dame Cheryl Miliband, rh Edward Stephens, Chris Caulfield, Maria Girvan, Paul Milton, rh Anne Stevens, Jo Chalk, Alex Glen, John Monaghan, Carol Stewart, rh Rory Chishti, Rehman Goldsmith, Zac Moon, Mrs Madeleine Stone, Jamie Chope, Sir Christopher Goodwill, rh Mr Robert Moran, Layla Streeting, Wes Churchill, Jo Gove, rh Michael Morden, Jessica Stringer, Graham Clark, Colin Graham, Luke Morgan, Stephen Sweeney, Mr Paul Clarke, Mr Simon Graham, Richard Morris, Grahame Swinson, Jo Cleverly, rh James Grant, Bill Murray, Ian Tami, rh Mark Clifton-Brown, Sir Geoffrey Grant, Mrs Helen Nandy, Lisa Thewliss, Alison Coffey, Dr Thérèse Gray, James Newlands, Gavin Thomas, Gareth Collins, Damian Grayling, rh Chris Nokes, rh Caroline Thomas-Symonds, Nick Costa, Alberto Green, Chris Norris, Alex Thornberry, rh Emily Courts, Robert Green, rh Damian O’Hara, Brendan Timms, rh Stephen Cox, rh Mr Geoffrey Griffiths, Andrew Onn, Melanie Trickett, Jon Crabb, rh Stephen Hair, Kirstene Onwurah, Chi Turley, Anna Crouch, Tracey Halfon, rh Robert Osamor, Kate Turner, Karl Davies, David T. C. Hall, Luke Owen, Albert Twigg, Stephen Davies, Glyn Hancock, rh Matt Peacock, Stephanie Twist, Liz Davies, Mims Hands, rh Greg Pearce, Teresa Umunna, Chuka Davies, Philip Harper, rh Mr Mark 135 European Union (Withdrawal)3 SEPTEMBER 2019 European Union (Withdrawal) 136

Harris, Rebecca Menzies, Mark Stephenson, Andrew Vickers, Martin Harrison, Trudy Mercer, Johnny Stevenson, John Villiers, rh Theresa Hart, Simon Merriman, Huw Stewart, Bob Walker, Mr Charles Hayes, rh Sir John Metcalfe, Stephen Streeter, Sir Gary Walker, Mr Robin Heald, rh Sir Oliver Miller, rh Mrs Maria Stride, rh Mel Wallace, rh Mr Ben Heappey, James Milling, Amanda Stuart, Graham Warburton, David Heaton-Harris, Chris Mills, Nigel Sturdy, Julian Warman, Matt Heaton-Jones, Peter Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Sunak, rh Rishi Watling, Giles Henderson, Gordon Moore, Damien Swayne, rh Sir Desmond Whately, Helen Herbert, rh Nick Mordaunt, rh Penny Swire, rh Sir Hugo Wheeler, Mrs Heather Hinds, rh Damian Morgan, rh Nicky Syms, Sir Robert Whittaker, Craig Hoare, Simon Morris, Anne Marie Thomas, Derek Whittingdale, rh Mr John Hoey, Kate Morris, David Thomson, Ross Wiggin, Bill Hollingbery, George Morris, James Throup, Maggie Williamson, rh Gavin Hollinrake, Kevin Morton, Wendy Tolhurst, Kelly Wilson, rh Sammy Hollobone, Mr Philip Mundell, rh David Tomlinson, Justin Wood, Mike Tomlinson, Michael Holloway, Adam Murray, Mrs Sheryll Wragg, Mr William Howell, John Murrison, rh Dr Andrew Tracey, Craig Wright, rh Jeremy Huddleston, Nigel Neill, Robert Tredinnick, David Zahawi, Nadhim Hughes, Eddie Newton, Sarah Trevelyan, Anne-Marie Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Norman, Jesse Truss, rh Elizabeth Tellers for the Noes: Hurd, rh Mr Nick O’Brien, Neil Tugendhat, Tom Stuart Andrew and Jack, rh Mr Alister Offord, Dr Matthew Vara, Mr Shailesh Iain Stewart Javid, rh Sajid Opperman, Guy Jayawardena, Mr Ranil Paisley, Ian Question accordingly agreed to. Jenkin, Sir Bernard Parish, Neil Jenkyns, Andrea Patel, rh Priti Ordered, Jenrick, rh Robert Paterson, rh Mr Owen That this House has considered the matter of the need to take Johnson, rh Boris Pawsey, Mark all necessary steps to ensure that the United Kingdom does not Johnson, Dr Caroline Penning, rh Sir Mike leave the European Union on 31 October 2019 without a Johnson, Gareth Penrose, John withdrawal agreement and accordingly makes provision as set Johnson, rh Joseph Percy, Andrew out in this order: Jones, Andrew Perry, rh Claire (1) On Wednesday 4 September 2019 Jones, rh Mr David Philp, Chris Jones, Mr Marcus Pincher, rh Christopher (a) Standing Order No. 14(1) (which provides that Kawczynski, Daniel Poulter, Dr Dan government business shall have precedence at every Keegan, Gillian Pow, Rebecca sitting save as provided in that order) shall not apply; Kennedy, Seema Prentis, Victoria (b) any proceedings governed by this order may be Kerr, Stephen Prisk, Mr Mark proceeded with until any hour, though opposed, and Knight, rh Sir Greg Pritchard, Mark (Proxy vote shall not be interrupted; Knight, Julian cast by Charles Walker (c) the Speaker may not propose the question on the Kwarteng, rh Kwasi Pursglove, Tom previous question, and may not put any question Lamont, John Quin, Jeremy under Standing Order No. 36 (Closure of debate) or Lancaster, rh Mark Quince, Will Standing Order No. 163 (Motion to sit in private); Latham, Mrs Pauline Raab, rh Dominic Leadsom, rh Andrea Redwood, rh John (d) at 3.00 pm, the Speaker shall interrupt any business prior to the business governed by this order and call a Lefroy, Jeremy Rees-Mogg, rh Mr Jacob Member to present the European Union (Withdrawal) Leigh, rh Sir Edward Robertson, Mr Laurence (No. 6) Bill of which notice of presentation has been Lewer, Andrew Robinson, Gavin given and immediately thereafter (notwithstanding Lewis, rh Brandon Robinson, Mary the practice of the House) call a Member to move the Lewis, Mr Ivan Rosindell, Andrew motion that the European Union (Withdrawal) (No. 6) Lewis, rh Dr Julian Ross, Douglas Bill be now read a second time as if it were an order of Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Rowley, Lee the House; Lidington, rh Mr David Rudd, rh Amber Little Pengelly, Emma Rutley, David (e) in respect of that Bill, notices of Amendments, new Clauses and new Schedules to be moved in Committee Lopez, Julia Scully, Paul may be accepted by the Clerks at the Table before the Lopresti, Jack Seely, Mr Bob Bill has been read a second time. Lord, Mr Jonathan Selous, Andrew Loughton, Tim Shannon, Jim (f) any proceedings interrupted or superseded by this Mackinlay, Craig Shapps, rh Grant order may be resumed or (as the case may be) entered Maclean, Rachel Sharma, rh Alok upon and proceeded with after the moment of interruption. Main, Mrs Anne Shelbrooke, Alec Mak, Alan Simpson, David (2) The provisions of paragraphs (3) to (18) of this order shall Malthouse, Kit Simpson, rh Mr Keith apply to and in connection with the proceedings on the European Mann, John Skidmore, Chris Union (Withdrawal) (No. 6) Bill in the present Session of Mann, Scott Smith, Chloe (Proxy vote cast Parliament. Masterton, Paul by Jo Churchill) Timetable for the Bill on Wednesday 4 September 2019 May, rh Mrs Theresa Smith, Henry (3) (a) Proceedings on Second Reading and in Committee of Maynard, Paul Smith, rh Julian the whole House, any proceedings on Consideration and McLoughlin, rh Sir Patrick Smith, Royston proceedings up to and including Third Reading shall be taken at McPartland, Stephen Spelman, rh Dame Caroline the sitting on Wednesday 4 September 2019 in accordance with McVey, rh Ms Esther Spencer, rh Mark this Order. 137 European Union (Withdrawal)3 SEPTEMBER 2019 European Union (Withdrawal) 138

(b) Proceedings on Second Reading shall be brought to a (10) If such a message is received on or before the commencement conclusion (so far as not previously concluded) at of public business on Monday 9 September and a designated 5.00 pm. Member indicates to the Speaker an intention to proceed to (c) Proceedings in Committee of the whole House, any consider that message, that message shall be considered before proceedings on Consideration and proceedings up to any order of the day or notice of motion which stands on the and including Third Reading shall be brought to a Order Paper. conclusion (so far as not previously concluded) at (11) Paragraphs (2) to (7) of Standing Order No. 83F 7.00 pm. (Programme orders: conclusion of proceedings on consideration Timing of proceedings and Questions to be put on Wednesday of Lords amendments) apply for the purposes of bringing any 4 September 2019 proceedings on consideration of Lords Amendments to a (4) When the Bill has been read a second time: conclusion as if: (a) it shall, notwithstanding Standing Order No.63 (Committal (a) any reference to a Minister of the Crown were a of bills not subject to a programme order), stand reference to a designated Member; committed to a Committee of the whole House without (b) after paragraph (4)(a) there is inserted – any Question being put; “(aa) the question on any amendment or motion (b) the Speaker shall leave the Chair whether or not notice selected by the Speaker for separate decision;”. of an Instruction has been given. (12) Paragraphs (2) to (5) of Standing Order No. 83G (Programme (5) (a) On the conclusion of proceedings in Committee of the orders: conclusion of proceedings on further messages from the whole House, the Chairman shall report the Bill to the House Lords) apply for the purposes of bringing any proceedings on without putting any Question. consideration of a Lords Message to a conclusion as if: (b) If the Bill is reported with amendments, the House shall proceed to consider the Bill as amended without (a) any reference to a Minister of the Crown were a any Question being put. reference to a designated Member; (6) For the purpose of bringing any proceedings to a (b) in paragraph (5), the words “subject to paragraphs (6) conclusion in accordance with paragraph (3), the Chairman or and (7)” were omitted. Speaker shall forthwith put the following Questions in the same Reasons Committee order as they would fall to be put if this Order did not apply— (13) Paragraphs (2) to (6) of Standing Order No. 83H (a) any Question already proposed from the Chair; (Programme orders: reasons committee) apply in relation to any (b) any Question necessary to bring to a decision a committee to be appointed to draw up reasons after proceedings Question so proposed; have been brought to a conclusion in accordance with this Order (c) the Question on any amendment, new clause or new as if any reference to a Minister of the Crown were a reference to schedule selected by the Chairman or Speaker for a designated Member. separate decision; Miscellaneous (d) the Question on any amendment moved or Motion made by a designated Member; (14) Standing Order No. 82 (Business Committee) shall not apply in relation to any proceedings on the Bill to which this (e) any other Question necessary for the disposal of the Order applies. business to be concluded; and shall not put any other Questions, other than the Question on any motion (15) No Motion shall be made, except by a designated described in paragraph (16) of this Order. Member, to alter the order in which any proceedings on the Bill (7) On a Motion made for a new Clause or a new Schedule, the are taken, to recommit the Bill or to vary or supplement the Chairman or Speaker shall put only the Question that the Clause provisions of this Order. or Schedule be added to the Bill. (16) (a) No dilatory Motion shall be made in relation to Consideration of Lords Amendments and Messages on a proceedings on the Bill to which this Order applies except by a subsequent day designated Member. (8) If any message on the Bill (other than a message that the (b) The Question on any such Motion shall be put House of Lords agrees with the Bill without amendment or agrees forthwith. with any message from this House) is expected from the House of (17) Proceedings to which this Order applies shall not be Lords on any future sitting day, the House shall not adjourn until interrupted under any Standing Order relating to the sittings of that message has been received and any proceedings under the House. paragraph (10) have been concluded. (9) On any day on which such a message is received, if a (18) No private business may be considered at any sitting to designated Member indicates to the Speaker an intention to which the provisions of this order apply. proceed to consider that message— Motion under section 3(2)(b) of the Northern Ireland (Executive (a) notwithstanding Standing Order No. 14(1) (which provides Formation etc) Act 2019 that government business shall have precedence at (19) No motion may be made by a Minister of the Crown every sitting save as provided in that order), any Lords under section 3(2)(b) of the Northern Ireland (Executive Formation Amendments to the Bill or any further Message from etc) Act 2019 prior to Monday 9 September. the Lords on the Bill may be considered forthwith without any Question being put; and any proceedings Royal Assent interruptedforthatpurposeshallbesuspendedaccordingly; (20) At the sittings on Monday 9 September, Tuesday (b) proceedings on consideration of Lords Amendments 10 September and Wednesday 11 September, the House shall not or on any further Message from the Lords shall (so adjourn until the Speaker shall have reported the Royal Assent to far as not previously concluded) be brought to a any Act agreed upon by both Houses. conclusion one hour after their commencement; and Proceedings in next Session of Parliament any proceedings suspended under subparagraph (a) shall thereupon be resumed; (21) The provisions of paragraphs (22) and (23) of this order apply to and in connection with proceedings on a Bill in the next (c) the Speaker may not propose the question on the Session of the present Parliament if— previous question, and may not put any question under Standing Order No. 36 (Closure of debate) or (a) the European Union (Withdrawal) (No. 6) Bill has Standing Order No. 163 (Motion to sit in private) in been read the third time in the present Session of the course of those proceedings. Parliament but has not received the Royal Assent; 139 European Union (Withdrawal) 3 SEPTEMBER 2019 140

(b) the Speaker is satisfied that the Bill is in similar terms Points of Order to the European Union (Withdrawal) (No. 6) Bill in the present Session of Parliament; (c) notice of presentation of the Bill is to be given by a designated Member. 10.10 pm (22) Where the conditions in paragraph (21) are met, Standing The Prime Minister (Boris Johnson): On a point of Order No. 14(11) (which relates to precedence in respect of order, Mr Speaker. Let there be no doubt about the private Members’ Bills) shall not apply in respect of the Bill in consequences of this vote tonight. It means that Parliament the new Session and notice of presentation of that Bill may be given on the first day of the new Session accordingly. is on the brink of wrecking any deal that we might be able to strike with Brussels, because tomorrow’s Bill (23) Where the conditions in paragraph (21) are met, the would hand control of the negotiations to the EU. That provisions of paragraphs (1), (3) to (9) and (11) to (18) shall apply to proceedings on and in connection with the Bill in the new would mean more dither,more delay and more confusion, Session as they apply to the European Union (Withdrawal) and it would mean that the EU itself would be able to (No. 6) Bill and any reference in this order to Wednesday 4 September decide how long to keep this country in the EU. shall apply as if it were a reference to the second day of the new Since I refuse to go along with that plan, we are going Session. to have to make a choice. I do not want an election. The Interpretation, etc public do not want an election. I do not believe the right (24) In this Order, “a designated Member” means— hon. Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn) (a) the Member in charge of the Bill in the present Session wants an election. But if the House votes for the Bill of Parliament; and tomorrow, the public will have to choose who goes to (b) any other Member backing the Bill in the present Brussels on 17 October to sort this out and take this Session of Parliament and acting on behalf of that country forward. Everybody knows that, if the right Member. hon. Gentleman is the Prime Minister, he will go to (25) This order shall be a Standing Order of the House. Brussels and beg for an extension, he will accept whatever Brussels demands, and we will have years more arguments over Brexit. By contrast, everyone knows that, if this Government are in charge and I go to Brussels, I will go for a deal and I believe I will get a deal, and we will leave anyway—even if we do not, we will leave anyway on 31 October. The people of this country will have to choose. The Leader of the Opposition has been begging for an election for two years. He has crowds of supporters outside calling for an election. I do not want an election, but if MPs vote tomorrow to stop negotiations and to compel another pointless delay to Brexit, potentially for years, that would be the only way to resolve this, and I can confirm that we are tonight tabling a motion under the Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011.

Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab): Further to that point of order, Mr Speaker. I welcome tonight’s vote. We live in a parliamentary democracy. We do not have a presidency; we have a Prime Minister. Prime Ministers govern with the consent of the House of Commons representing the people in whom sovereignty rests. There is no consent in this House to leave the EU without a deal. There is no majority for no deal in the country. As I have said before, if the Prime Minister has confidence in his Brexit policy—when he has one he can put forward—he should put it before the people in a public vote. So he wants to table a motion for a general election. Fine—get the Bill through first in order to take no deal off the table. [Interruption.]

Mr Speaker: Order. It is very rude for Members— [Interruption.] Order. I say to the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster that, when he turns up at our children’s school as a parent, he is a very well-behaved fellow. He would not dare to behave like that in front of Colin Hall, and neither would I. Do not gesticulate. Do not rant. Spare us the theatrics. Behave yourself. Be a good boy, young man. Be a good boy. [Interruption.] Yes, we know the theatrics that the right hon. Gentleman perfected in the . We are not interested. Be quiet. 141 Points of Order 3 SEPTEMBER 2019 142

Ian Blackford (Ross, Skye and Lochaber) (SNP): that we do not want a no-deal Brexit, and tomorrow we Further to that point of order, Mr Speaker. I have to say shall have the opportunity to make sure, yet again, that that the public will be watching these deliberations we do not crash out without a deal. tonight, and what they will make of the baying and I remind the Prime Minister that, as one of the shouting that is coming from the Conservative side, so-called leaders of the Leave campaign, he promised heaven only knows. the people of this country that we would not leave the This Prime Minister has a 100% record of losing European Union without a deal. I think that this House votes in the House of Commons, and one would have now has the right to know the following. The rumour is thought that he would have some humility tonight, but that the whip will be withdrawn from every single that is sadly lacking. Prime Minister, perhaps you might member of the Conservative party who voted against consider acting as a Prime Minister should. Respect the their Government tonight. If that is the case, Mr Speaker, vote that has taken place in the House tonight. Let us it must be the first time, and it would involve right hon. have a Bill tomorrow. The House will be able to express and hon. Members who have served their party—and, its opinion that it wishes to remove no deal as an many would say, their country—for decades. Will the option. Do not give us this nonsense of a fantasy that Prime Minister confirm whether they will have the whip there is a deal to come from the Government, because it withdrawn—yes or no? is simply not true. Mr Speaker: Order. I do not think we need to conduct The Government must respect the sovereignty of this a debate on that matter across the Floor of the House—it House of Parliament. They must allow the Bill to be is not a matter for adjudication by the Chair—but the enacted—they must allow it to have Royal Assent—and right hon. Lady has made her own point in her own yes, let us have an election, but let us have an election way, with her customary force. It is on the record, and that respects the democracy of this House and the she will doubtless wish to return to it in times to come. desire of parliamentarians to ensure that we do not crash out on a no-deal basis. CENSUS (RETURN PARTICULARS AND REMOVAL OF PENALTIES) BILL [LORDS] Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD): Further to Bill to be considered tomorrow. that point of order, Mr Speaker. Across the country, people have been protesting because they are worried. They are worried about the Prime Minister’s riding Business without Debate roughshod over our parliamentary democracy. Tonight the House of Commons has spoken: it has said that we will not let that happen. ELECTION OF SELECT COMMITTEE CHAIRS (NOTICE OF ELECTION) Much as I relish the opportunity to take on the Prime Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Minister in a general election, it is vital—[Interruption.] Order No. 9(6)), It is vital that this House acts with responsibility, and That, notwithstanding the provisions of Standing Order does not take our country into an election at a point at No. 122C(1), the Speaker may announce a date for an election of which there is any risk that we will crash out of the chairs of select committees before 12 September 2019 in respect European Union during that election campaign or of which the requirement of notice is not met.—(Jeremy Quin.) immediately afterwards. We must act responsibly. Question agreed to.

Anna Soubry (Broxtowe) (IGC): Further to that point Mr Speaker: I must inform the House that Nicky of order, Mr Speaker. [Interruption.] I am not going to Morgan has given me notice of her resignation as Chair be shouted down, especially by any man. of the Treasury Committee. I declare the Chair vacant. Nominations should be submitted by 12 noon on Tuesday Mr Speaker, tonight’s vote made even the Leader of 10 September. Only members of the Conservative party the House sit up. This Parliament has spoken, and we may be candidates in this Select Committee Chair election. have spoken on behalf of the jobs, livelihoods and The ballot will take place on Wednesday 11 September futures of our constituents. Yet again, we have shown from 10 am to 1.30 pm. 143 3 SEPTEMBER 2019 144

Sheep Farming: No-deal EU Exit unequivocally that a no deal must be avoided because our farmers need security and fair access to European Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House markets? do now adjourn.—(Jeremy Quin.) : I agree with that. One of the specific 10.22 pm problems faced by the farmers the hon. Gentleman describes is the fact that those flocks possess unique Jenny Chapman (Darlington) (Lab): When I was first characteristics and that once they are gone they may elected to this place in 2010, I never thought I would never be able to be bred back into our national flock. find myself standing up to challenge the Government about the decimation of the UK’s sheep industry. The Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab): Is not the heart of ancient practice of shepherding is as old as the hills, but the problem the fact that lamb would not be competitive it is now facing an unprecedented challenge brought by if it had a 48% tariff placed on it? That would be an the threat of a no-deal Brexit. The threat of no deal absolutely ridiculous situation. The Government might brings with it a man-made, Boris-built disaster that talk about short-term subsidies to help the immediate could harm so many sectors from chemicals to cars, situation, but that is no way to save the industry as a food to pharmaceuticals, and steel to services—virtually whole. every area of economic activity in this country would be hit, and that includes the sheep industry. The idea that Jenny Chapman: That is absolutely right. the rearing of lambs could be so comprehensively, cruelly and deliberately threatened by our own Government’s decision is beyond belief. Dr Sarah Wollaston (Totnes) (LD): This will certainly devastate the hill farmers in my constituency, but we Keeping sheep is already a vulnerable business and a must also consider the impact that it would have on the no-deal Brexit will just add to the problems. The landscape. Many people do not realise that our landscapes unprecedented loss of markets and the imposition of are the way they are because of grazing. tariffs and barriers will severely harm this industry. Jenny Chapman: The hon. Lady makes an excellent Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab): Does my point, and that is why even my constituents in urban hon. Friend agree that this is yet another example of Darlington care about what happens to our national privileged, idle old Etonians who could not care less flock and to the livelihoods of the tens of thousands of about the lives and livelihoods of our working hill people who work so hard to keep our landscape the way farmers in Wales and across the UK? that it is.

Jenny Chapman: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I Deidre Brock (Edinburgh North and Leith) (SNP): I represent an urban constituency, but even in urban wonder whether the hon. Lady was as disturbed as I Darlington there are agricultural workers whose jobs was to hear the Leader of the House speak so casually would be affected by the effect of a no-deal Brexit on earlier this evening of trading purely under WTO rules, the sheep industry. given that analysis from the Agriculture and Horticulture Development Board suggests that WTO tariffs could Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I thank the hon. add anything from 38% to 91% to the price of sheepmeat Lady for bringing this matter to the House for consideration. for EU buyers, which would be catastrophic for the I spoke to her earlier today and perhaps her opinion on sector. Brexit is very different from mine, but the Conservative Government have indicated that as long as they have Jenny Chapman: I agree with the hon. Lady, and I the power to do so, they will maintain the grants that will refer later in my speech to the report that she has are available for farmers, and for sheep farmers in mentioned. particular. Does she agree that the problems and the deficits there might be in lamb prices could be offset by Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab): Last week, the Government’s commitment to give what the EU gives I went to the Upper Teesdale Agricultural Support now? Service. Its concern is that because the Government have failed to bring forward the Agriculture Bill, it is Jenny Chapman: If it was that simple, we would not not clear whether the Government have the legal powers need to have this debate. This is not just about farm to make payments in the event of no-deal Brexit. Does payments; it is about loss of markets. That is something my hon. Friend agree that the Minister must answer that has not been properly understood, and the Government that point this evening? have not given a decent account of what they intend to do to address it. Jenny Chapman: That is the first time I have heard that point made in the House; it is one that my hon. Brendan O’Hara (Argyll and Bute) (SNP): The hon. Friend and I discussed earlier today. She is absolutely Lady will know that Scotland is home to one fifth of the right: farmers need to hear from the Minister what he entire UK sheep flock and that much of that work is intends to do about their payments, and we need to being done by farmers and crofters in less favoured ensure that he has the power to make those payments. areas such as my own constituency.Leaving the European The principal problem for the sheep sector is that, Union with no deal would have a devastating effect on according to the report the hon. Member for Edinburgh farmers and crofters, so will she join me in urging the North and Leith (Deidre Brock) mentioned, under no Government to listen to the words of Andrew McCornick deal the export of sheepmeat to the EU27 would be of the Scottish National Farmers Union, who has said almost entirely wiped out, with the only exports being 145 Sheep Farming: No-deal EU Exit3 SEPTEMBER 2019 Sheep Farming: No-deal EU Exit 146 those via a tariff rate quota of less than 400 tonnes. Of The lack of new trading arrangements and an course non-EU exports could increase over time, although implementation period would mean that farmers will the possible rise of around 5% would not be anywhere set about drastically reducing the size of their flocks. near enough to offset the loss of EU trade. Reduced Chillingly, the AHDB says: trade with the EU would leave around one third of UK “Culling rates would record significant uplift driving the increase meat without a market. in adult sheep slaughterings. Quarter one of year two”— of a no-deal Brexit— Ruth Jones (Newport West) (Lab): I congratulate my “records a year-on-year uplift in slaughterings as the remainder hon. Friend. She is absolutely correct to raise concerns of the year-one lamb crop are slaughtered.” about the impact of a no-deal Brexit on the sheep The estimate of 3 million lambs is at the lower end of industry in Britain, and nowhere will that impact be felt the estimates. more than in Wales. In acknowledging the work that the NFU Cymru and the Farmers Union of Wales do on Matt Western (Warwick and Leamington) (Lab): My behalf of Welsh farmers, may I point out that 96% of hon. Friend is making an important speech. Perhaps all the Welsh lamb sent out of the UK goes to the she can enlighten us or confirm this, but my understanding 27 other nations in the EU? If we do not get this right, is that the breeding season is probably just about to sheep farmers in Wales will be pushed to breaking start, because sheep gestation is typically around 150 days, point, and we cannot allow that. if I well recall, so farmers must be planning now exactly what their programmes will be. Jenny Chapman: This affects every region of the country, from the Lakeland fells, to Exmoor, to Teesdale, Jenny Chapman: That is exactly right. I think the where I live. People are saying, “Why does this matter? phrase is “In with a bang and out like fools,” because Surely this just means that there will be more lamb for sheep breed at the end of October or the beginning of the UK market, the price will be cut, and we can all November, and the lambs arrive in the spring. As the enjoy more lamb this Christmas,” but the problem is Minister well knows, farmers make their arrangements that we just do not have the facilities to safely slaughter, and plan such things a long way in advance, which is store and freeze that volume of lamb in the UK. If the why, according to farming bodies, we need at least a two Minister plans to introduce such facilities, he needs to to three-year transitional period. The AHDB report I say so tonight, because knowing that this year’s yield of was referring to goes on to say that around 15 million lambs can be safely stored and enjoyed “under a rapid response scenario, the national flock would be by consumers, and therefore paid for, would be of huge culled to reduce size”. benefit to the 34,000 people currently employed in the industry. If that meat cannot be stored and sold—even Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): Does my hon. at a knock-down price—the sector will be decimated. Friend share my astonishment that the Welsh Secretary The Government have said that they are aware of the said over the summer that we could start exporting to special circumstances that would lead to a substantial Japan and that that market has opened up? They do not negative effect on the income of UK sheep farmers and eat lamb in Japan at the moment, and they are certainly that they would compensate farmers. To their credit, the not going to start eating it on 1 November just to Government have pledged to continue to commit the oblige us. same cash total in funds for farm support until the end of this Parliament—although obviously that might be Jenny Chapman: My hon. Friend makes an important coming sooner than was anticipated. Financial support point. Yes, in theory and given enough time, it may be is already included in farmers’ business plans, but it possible to find new markets, but it will be too late by does not compensate farmers for a sudden loss of then, because our flock will have been decimated and market or for feed costs for animals that they cannot will take decades to rebuild. Should the situation improve now slaughter. It does not ensure that sufficient feed is in future years, with new markets, it might just be available to keep lambs bred for slaughter alive. It does possible to re-establish the flock, but it really is not not create abattoir or cold-storage capacity. It certainly likely. Once the breeding ewes have gone and their does not create new export markets or offset tariffs, special characteristics have been lost, it will take years because that would be against WTO rules. to recreate the unique features of our national flock. In answer to one of my written parliamentary questions Tens of thousands of jobs and our treasured landscape on 18 July, the then Minister, the right hon. Member for would be lost, and this is all so preventable. Scarborough and Whitby (Mr Goodwill), said: A minimum of a two to three-year transitional deal is “We are doing all we can to mitigate the challenges our farmers needed, and we need agreements that recognise the will face and we have contingency plans in place to minimise safety and quality of our produce. Critically, we must disruption.” increase the capacity of essential cold storage facilities But Ministers have not explained, and continue to now. When Ministers reassure me and try to reassure refuse to explain, what those contingency plans are. The farmers, they need to explain what precisely they intend Minister’s predecessor offered from the Dispatch Box to do. to meet me, but the current Minister then declined that invitation and has refused to discuss the issue. If a Tonia Antoniazzi (Gower) (Lab): This is an important wasteful cull of millions of lambs and breeding ewes is debate, particularly for my Gower constituency, where to be avoided, measures need to be put in place now. If the lamb industry is very vibrant. Does my hon. Friend the slaughter and storage facilities are not in place and share my concern about the amount of cold storage no deal happens, farmers will have little option but to that will be needed and about the Government’s plans cull their flocks. The meat will not be eaten, and the to meet that need? Does this country have enough cold waste will be shameful. storage for medicines post Brexit? 147 Sheep Farming: No-deal EU Exit3 SEPTEMBER 2019 Sheep Farming: No-deal EU Exit 148

Jenny Chapman: If any of us were in the business of China and Japan, so there are many opportunities for cold storage or large-scale fridges, we would be doing import substitution, as we currently source a significant quite well at the moment. My understanding from the quantity of lamb from New Zealand. trade body that represents such businesses is that there Secondly, we have an independent exchange rate—an is no additional capacity, so should we suddenly need to independent currency and a floating exchange rate. store this volume of meat, those facilities will not be That is incredibly important for the agriculture sector. there and the safe consumption of that meat will not be It helps as an automatic stabiliser when we have shocks. a possible solution to this issue. We now contemplate the prospect of having to leave the I did not believe it when I first heard about the mass EU without a withdrawal agreement, although that is culling of millions of lambs that would be rendered not our preference, as all hon. Members know. Having a inedible, but then I read the reports, listened to the floating exchange rate makes that easier for the farming National Farmers Union and spoke to agricultural sector than it would have been had we become trapped workers and farmers across the country. It is very clear in the euro some years ago. that this is not “Project Fear”. I ask the Minister to get out from behind his ministerial Helen Goodman: I am astounded by what the Minister desk and deal with this now, before it is too late. has just said. The pound has fallen by 20% since the referendum, which means that for every export the farmers are getting 20% less money. How can that be 10.37 pm good for them? The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (George Eustice): I congratulate George Eustice: The hon. Lady has it the wrong way the hon. Member for Darlington (Jenny Chapman) on round, as it is always the case that for sectors that are securing this important debate on a day when we have producing goods, such as agriculture, a weaker exchange already had a lot of discussion about our EU exit. She rate against the euro leads to higher prices. It is no has raised this issue in a series of parliamentary questions, secret that since the referendum result in 2016, when and a little later I will address some of the concerns and there was an adjustment of sterling against the euro, issues she raises. agriculture commodity prices in the UK have been at The UK sheep sector is incredibly large and important. highs, and that has helped farm incomes. That is a Combined, our upland and lowland sheep production recognised fact; exchange rates are a key driver of had an annual production value of around £1.26 billion agriculture commodity prices. in 2018, accounting for around 4.5% of all agriculture We recognise that even with those important factors output in the UK. As a number of hon. Members have going in our favour, the sector is still exposed. Some said, the sector is also responsible for some of the most modelling has been done by a number of different iconic landscapes in the UK. organisations, including the NFU. It is important to There are 16 million breeding ewes and some 70,000 recognise that tariffs are a tax on consumers first and sheep farms across the UK, and the sector is particularly foremost. Some estimates therefore anticipate that were important in some of the devolved regions. For instance, the EU to apply full most favoured nation tariffs on around 50% of UK sheep production and the national lamb, there would likely be an increase in consumer flock is in Wales and Scotland. The UK is the largest prices in the EU of up to about 20%. That reflects the producer of sheepmeat in the EU, producing around fact that the UK is the dominant lamb producer in the 38% of all the sheepmeat and goatmeat produced in the EU and there are limited other options for it to source EU last year. The UK is also the world’s third largest its lamb from. exporter of sheepmeat, behind New Zealand and Australia, so we are a truly global player in this sector. Gareth Snell (Stoke-on-Trent Central) (Lab/Co-op): The Minister mentions choosing to apply MFN tariffs. Around a third of our annual production of lamb is I profess not to be an expert on the sheep industry, but exported, and as the hon. Member for Darlington said, in the ceramics industry we have been told that there is over 95% of it goes to the European Union. Total lamb no choice over MFN and it is the tariff that has to be exports in 2018 were valued at around £384 million, applied to abide by World Trade Organisation rules. Is with a large amount of that coming from the European the Minister now saying from the Dispatch Box that the Union. The main export destination for lamb in 2018 Government can apply discretion on that? If so, will he was France, followed by Germany and Belgium, but for outline what that plan is? certain parts of the industry, notably those in Wales that tend to produce smaller lambs, some of the George Eustice: Yes, absolutely, there is discretion, Mediterranean countries such as Italy and Portugal are and the UK Government have already indicated what also important purchasers of our goods. Some of our our tariff schedule would be in a no-deal scenario. heavier lamb, predominantly from lowland areas, is Governments have the opportunity to have a lower more sought after in northern Europe. We recognise applied tariff—lower than the bound tariff set in the that, because of all those factors, in the event of a WTO. The option is also open to any Government no-deal exit the sheep sector is the most exposed in its unilaterally to suspend tariffs. Indeed, should it wish, trading relationship with the EU, and we have always tariff suspension would be open to the EU, which I acknowledged that. think is unlikely. Alternatively, and more likely, is the In managing those risks, we have two important creation of an autonomous tariff rate quota for lamb factors going for us. First, we have a large domestic that would be open to the whole world, including the market for food in general and for lamb in particular. UK. There are many options that both the EU and the Measured by import value, the UK is the world’s third British Government have unilaterally to apply tariffs largest market for food and drink, coming after only that are lower than the WTO bound tariff. 149 Sheep Farming: No-deal EU Exit3 SEPTEMBER 2019 Sheep Farming: No-deal EU Exit 150

However, as I said, it is important to recognise that in the short term. In the short term, the Prime Minister we are the dominant producer. The EU could source has already made it clear that in the event of a no-deal more product from New Zealand, provided it had access exit we will show solidarity with the sheep industry and to the ceiling currently set under the EU tariff rate make interventions, where necessary, to support farmers’ quota. In the medium term, countries such as Spain incomes. could increase their production, but they are unlikely to be able to do that in the short term. For those reasons, it Jenny Chapman rose— is likely that there would be an increase in consumer George Eustice: I am going to conclude because we prices in the European Union as a result of its applying are running out of time. the full MFN tariff. The hon. Member for Bishop Auckland (Helen It is important to recognise that that increase in price Goodman) raised the important issue of whether we would dampen demand in the European Union. Modelling have the legal vires to make those interventions, and I suggests that that would increase supply in the domestic can confirm that we do. The Government have a number market and that as a result prices in the UK could fall of legislative vehicles with which to do so, including by up to 30%. To put that into context, that means elements of retained EU law,and the Natural Environment prices going back down to roughly where they were in and Rural Communities Act 2006 also includes general 2015, which was a difficult year for the sheep sector. We grant-making powers that give us the ability to do so. are talking about a significant potential reduction, but We are considering two possible options. One is a it is not unprecedented. It would simply be going back headage payment on breeding ewes, should that be to levels prior to the referendum result. necessary. That would be important in the event that farmers producing lambs are the ones who have the Tonia Antoniazzi: The Welsh Affairs Committee recently shock to their income. The second option would be went to New Zealand and visited the sheep and beef something called a slaughterhouse premium, which would industry, which was very interesting. Our farmers worry in effect involve a supplementary top-up payment for that our markets are going to be flooded with cheap lambs at the point of slaughter.Wecould use a combination New Zealand lamb. What can the Minister say to allay of those options but, broadly speaking, a headage our farmers’ fears? payment and income-support approach would be the George Eustice: The Government have already made right approach to adopt. it clear that because of the particular sensitivity, we will Matt Western rose— apply full MFN tariffs on lamb, so there will not be any additional imports to the UK beyond those we already George Eustice: I want to conclude now as we are have. There is a splitting of the existing TRQ for New running out of time. Zealand lamb between the UK and New Zealand—a The scale of, or need for, any intervention is difficult combined total of around 250,000 tonnes—but there to judge at this point, because it will depend quite will be no additional lamb because we will apply full considerably on the approach that the European Union MFN tariffs outside that TRQ. finally takes. As I said earlier, it is open to it to create an autonomous tariff rate quota, but it is also highly Tonia Antoniazzi: How is the tariff going to work dependent on the extent of exchange rates. I can give between Europe and the UK? Has it been decided what hon. Members an undertaking tonight to reassure them percentage of the tariff is going to go to the UK or to that the Rural Payments Agency has already been told Europe? to design the administrative procedures necessary to George Eustice: Yes, that has been decided. One of make such headage payments. Discussions with the the few areas in which the European Union has from Treasury are at an advanced stage about what support the very beginning being willing to work with the UK is may need to be set aside, while recognising that no final on agreeing a splitting of the tariff rate quota schedules, decisions can be taken until we actually leave the European and those have already been lodged with the World Union. Trade Organisation. I know that the hon. Member for Darlington has As I said, we recognise that in a no-deal scenario we previously raised the issue of culling sheep, and she will have to show some solidarity with the sector, which raised it again tonight. I can confirm that that is not will nevertheless face potentially significant falls in prices under consideration. We regard any problems as being to levels not seen since 2015. potentially short term and the correct approach would be to supplement farmers’ incomes through the headage Douglas Ross (Moray) (Con): I welcome the Minister payment schemes that I have described. We do not want back to the Dispatch Box. He is giving a strong account to reduce the capacity of our flock. for this important sector. On my summer surgery tour, We are a global player in this sector and we believe farmers from Tomintoul to Rothiemay expressed their that there is a bright future for our sheep sector. However, concerns about the future of the industry.What reassurance in the unlikely event that it is not possible to get a can the Minister give, on behalf of the Government, longer-term free trade agreement with the European that this issue is being given the utmost priority? What Union, there are, of course, other approaches that we can he say tonight to reassure sheep farmers in Moray, can take. Our existing tariff-rate policy is set for just across Scotland and throughout the UK? 12 months. It is open to us in future to review that and to apply certain tariffs to other EU sectors, to give our George Eustice: I can absolutely give my hon. Friend farmers opportunities to diversify into different sectors that reassurance. He will be aware that the Government such as beef. Many of our sheep producers are mixed are seeking a free trade agreement with the European beef and sheep enterprises. It is also open to us to Union in the medium to long term and, if we can get it, support the opening of new markets through, for instance, 151 Sheep Farming: No-deal EU Exit3 SEPTEMBER 2019 Sheep Farming: No-deal EU Exit 152

[George Eustice] the Government have been working for the past two years on modelling the potential impacts and planning the deployment of new attachés to our embassy to help the types of interventions that we may need to make to gain that market access. I know that the hon. Lady said ensure that our sheep farmers are protected from any that that was against WTO rules, but that is not correct. no-deal exit. Certain types of export refunds are against WTO convention, but there is no rule against investment to Question put and agreed to. support market access. In conclusion, we recognise that the sheep sector more than any other agriculture sector is exposed because of the scale of its exports to the European Union, but 10.51 pm House adjourned. 1WH 3 SEPTEMBER 2019 EU Settlement Scheme: Looked-after 2WH Children and Care Leavers relationship with their parent is strained. Does my hon. Westminster Hall Friend agree that that means that we need a specific scheme and way of dealing with children in care who are EU citizens, if Brexit is to go ahead? Tuesday 3 September 2019 Steve McCabe: I entirely agree with the points that [MR PETER BONE in the Chair] my hon. Friend has raised. That was part of the purpose of calling this debate: I do not think that the scheme as EU Settlement Scheme: Looked-after currently designed will cope with these difficulties. As Children and Care Leavers my hon. Friend rightly says, the pilots demonstrated the difficulties of obtaining documentation—particularly 11.30 am birth certificates, on which the Home Office puts a very Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab): I beg high premium when determining these cases. Like her, I to move, am concerned that many children and young people will That this House has considered the EU Settlement Scheme not be able to access these documents and, as a result, and looked-after children and care leavers. will be wrongly denied settled status. Good morning, Mr Bone. It is nice to be back and a The Minister’s predecessor, the right hon. Member pleasure to see you in the Chair. May I take this for Romsey and Southampton North (), opportunity also to welcome the Minister to her post? did indicate that the Home Office planned to show a I want to raise today an issue that has the potential to degree of leniency in this respect, but unfortunately she become a serious immigration problem, but one that did not spell out what she had in mind. I do not know there is still plenty of time to avoid. The EU settlement whether the Minister is in a position to enlighten us scheme is the largest registration programme that the today. No doubt she will tell us that in these cases the UK has ever known and poses the challenge of regularising children will be eligible for pre-settled status, but what the status of about 3.7 million people, including about that actually means is that they will get temporary 700,000 children, 74,000 of whom live in the west rights and be denied their legitimate legal rights. That is midlands. why there is a problem and why we are raising it. As The quarterly EU settlement scheme statistics show Members of Parliament, we have a duty to ensure that that only 12% of the applications to the scheme received the most vulnerable in our communities are protected by the end of June 2019 came from children under 16. I and that children for whom the state is responsible am sure that we all want to prevent vulnerable children receive the highest levels of protection. from falling foul of problems associated with these It seems to me that the issue is not just documentation; plans as we prepare to leave the EU. I believe that there there are several challenges with the proposals. It is is significant cross-party support in both Houses on this extremely doubtful that social workers will have the time, issue, and I hope that today the Minister can provide expertise or legal knowledge to register these children. some reassurance. The Government have estimated that there are currently Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab): I about 5,000 EU children in the British care system and congratulate my hon. Friend on securing the debate. perhaps a further 4,000 care leavers across the UK. We His comments raise a number of questions. The first is do not know the exact figure, because local authorities the final status of these children—ultimately—because do not record that information, so I am relying on we have seen problems in that regard before, but in Government estimates. The figure does not include addition, because of a lack of social workers, it will children classified as “in need” and therefore in receipt always be difficult for local authorities to get the accurate of considerable support from children’s services, but documentation that is needed. The lack of social workers where the Department has not assumed parental rights. and of funding for local authorities has been raised The Minister will be aware, I am sure, that there is quite many times in the House. Does my hon. Friend think it a fine distinction between a child in need and therefore is about time that central Government showed a bit of in informal care and a child in the formal system. It humanity and did something about that? really relies on the point at which intervention is required. Therefore, I would submit that all these children need to Steve McCabe: I thank my hon. Friend for those be registered. remarks. I hope that, in the course of this debate, it will be possible to demonstrate that this is not scaremongering, If previous registration is anything to judge by, it that these are real issues and that there are solutions, seems impossible to believe that 100% registration can but that does require the Government to recognise the ever be achieved. If just 15% of children are not properly problems that my hon. Friend has raised and to agree to registered, we may find ourselves doubling the number act on them. of undocumented children in this country. Recent pilot exercises suggest that there will be significant problems As I was saying, it seems unlikely that social workers for local authorities in obtaining critical documentation will have the time, expertise or legal knowledge to deal such as birth certificates. with these issues, particularly if they begin to encounter problems in the process. The Children’s Society, along Stella Creasy (Walthamstow) (Lab/Co-op): My hon. with other charities,has repeatedly highlighted the problems Friend is making a very strong case on why we need to that this group of children is facing and the challenges address this issue. I speak as the MP for one of the pilot that exist in trying to process an EUSS application. areas, in Waltham Forest. One challenge was simply There is no evidence that I am aware of that additional getting hold of documentation, because embassies will support will be made available to local authorities—the not release documentation to a child; they will release it point that my hon. Friend the Member for Coventry to a parent, but of course if the child is in care, the South (Mr Cunningham) raises. 3WH EU Settlement Scheme: Looked-after 3 SEPTEMBER 2019 EU Settlement Scheme: Looked-after 4WH Children and Care Leavers Children and Care Leavers [Steve McCabe] around 5,000 EU children are currently in care, and there are perhaps a further 4,000 care leavers across the During the pilot phase, every application that Coram UK, who need to be registered. At the present time, it is Children’s Legal Centre made on behalf of a child in virtually impossible to estimate the number of children care or a care leaver included detailed nationality advice— in need, which is a broader group. nationality advice that requires expert legal advice and understanding—and social workers had to be supported Stella Creasy: My hon. Friend raised the important at each stage during the process. That is the evidence issue of citizenship fees. I hope the Minister has seen from the pilots. the fantastic work done by Citizens UK, particularly Anne-Marie Canning, who is my constituent in Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab): I congratulate Walthamstow. We deal very closely with those children my hon. Friend on the case that he is making. The and having documentation opens up doors for some of Immigration Aid Unit has been them, but I am worried about cases where they do not working with directors of children’s services in Greater have it. Manchester to try to offer the support to which my hon. If we have done the right thing as corporate parents, Friend refers. Does he agree with me that we urgently helped these children to achieve new goals and dealt need the Government to get the resolution currently with some of the damage that led to them being in care, before the House on extending legal aid to children in then watching them be denied access to university or immigration cases through the House and on to the further education colleges because they cannot sort out statute book? If the Government did that, social workers their status would be a horrific blow. These are some of would be absolutely clear that legal aid was available for the most vulnerable children in our country. these cases and that they would not have to rely just on Does my hon. Friend agree that this is about not just the chances of getting exceptional case funding. these children’s status, but their future, and that is why it is so important that the Government recognise that this Steve McCabe: My understanding is that that is an particular group of vulnerable young people needs a outstanding Government promise; as my hon. Friend specific scheme? says, there is a resolution to that effect. If there are any plans to curtail the time that we will spend here in the Steve McCabe: That is absolutely the point. If we do coming days, one good use of the time here would be in not deal with this now, there will be a whole host of dealing with this simple issue. That would certainly young people wandering around this country, sleeping raise the prospects of our being able to deal with the on streets and unable to get jobs or to travel. That is whole issue in a much more satisfactory manner, and I what we will be subjecting them to for the next few would certainly support it. years. That is why it is important that we get on top of The current guidance states that local authorities this and deal with it now. can make applications on behalf of children where I checked the figures kept by Birmingham Children’s they have full parental responsibility, but, as I mentioned Trust. It has around 50 children whom it believes are earlier, for care leavers or children in care under a EU citizens and will need to apply for some kind of section 20 order they are instructed simply to raise settled status. It also has about 24 care leavers, who also awareness or to signpost those young people to the fall into that category. However, at this point, the trust scheme. Children in care under section 20 orders include has not made any applications and it was not entirely children with disabilities, the children of prisoners, children clear about how the process should operate. That is in involved in the criminal justice system and victims of the second largest city in the country; if that trust is not child trafficking. It seems unrealistic to think that those sure how to operate the scheme, what will happen children will be able to gather the correct documentation, elsewhere? make the application for themselves and challenge any As my hon. Friend the Member for Walthamstow incorrect decision the Home Office might arrive at. (Stella Creasy) indicated, there are many future problems Looked-after children are starkly over-represented in to consider, but there will also be some simple problems the criminal justice system, as I am sure the Minister for children in the care system in the months ahead. knows. Around half of children currently in custody in Will they be able to go on school trips abroad with their England and Wales have been in care at some point. peers after 31 October, or will they be stigmatised and The Government have provided no clarity as to how refused that opportunity because they will not have these children will be treated when they apply for the access to proper travel rights? As my hon. Friend asked, scheme and, if they are offending, whether that will be what will happen to them when they are seeking housing, used against them, as in the adult scheme. I raise that benefits and other support? They will be denied that point because in this country we normally take the view support. We see enough problems on our streets at the that juvenile criminal behaviour should be treated differently present time; we certainly do not need to add to them from adult criminal behaviour. by ignoring children for whose care we have taken Many looked-after children and care leavers may be responsibility. That seems the worst possible thing that eligible for British citizenship, but the social worker will any group of MPs could do. need to know the law in order to recognise that. Local The simplest and most cost-effective solution to these authorities would have to pay the application fee, which problems would be to grant automatic settled status to is currently £1,012 per child. That is a significant disincentive all looked-after children and care leavers. I do not think for cash-strapped local authorities. As I said earlier, we the number is so massive that it would impose great are working on estimates because local authorities do strains on the immigration system. However, it would not record EU nationals who are in their care or classed tidy up one straightforward issue with one straightforward as children in need, but the Government estimate that group of children. At the very least, the Government 5WH EU Settlement Scheme: Looked-after 3 SEPTEMBER 2019 EU Settlement Scheme: Looked-after 6WH Children and Care Leavers Children and Care Leavers ought to extend the deadline for applying for the settled In this country we have a great tradition of looking status scheme until we have really understood how after children in the care system. There has been gradual some of these issues will operate in practice and what progress on improving outcomes, but we need to go an kinds of problems will arise. awful lot further. Nevertheless, this is something that we If the Home Office is not willing to make changes of in this country do well. One only has to go to a number that order itself, it needs to instruct all local authorities of other countries that just do not have the sort of to ensure that all eligible looked-after children are supported sophisticated and advanced children’s social care system to make an application, not just children under a section 31 that we take for granted, even with all the problems that care order. If the Home Office is really serious about we hear about, to realise that it is still one of the best making this work, it will not leave those children exposed such systems in the world. to such risks. Of course, we also have a great and proud record of As my hon. Friend the Member for Stretford and giving safe refuge to vulnerable families and children Urmston (Kate Green) said, the Government urgently from overseas, particularly unaccompanied minors fleeing need to bring forward parliamentary time for the from the most unimaginable danger, and it is absolutely amendment allowing looked-after children to have access right that we should continue to do that. Our recent to legal aid. That seems to be essential, if there is to be record of helping those very vulnerable children from any sincerity to this process. The Government must Syria and other conflict zones who have lost family, communicate to all local authorities exactly how this which includes participation in the family reunion schemes legal aid will be accessed. It is not enough to place an that I will allude to shortly, is certainly one that we obligation on the local authorities and then leave them should be very proud of. with all the difficulties—we have seen that happen all I will just refer to the correspondence that the Home too often in recent times; it is not good enough. The Affairs Committee had with the previous , Home Office should also consider waiving the fee for now the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I do not think we citizenship applications for those children who qualify. take credit for this enough, but under the Dublin scheme As I said, the current fee is £1,012. That is a disincentive there has been a significant increase in recent years in to local authorities. If the children are eligible and the number of children arriving in the UK to be reunited already in care, we should agree to waive that fee. with members of their family who are already here. In This issue has all the signs of a disaster in the 2015, just 24 children arrived in the UK under articles 8.1 making. Of all the people we are concerned about, I and 8.2 of the Dublin regulation, but by 2018—last year cannot believe that I am here talking about children in —that figure had risen to 159. the care system—we say that we will look after and It is also important that we are looking after those protect them, and give them a better chance in the children appropriately, so I was pleased to hear from future. This has all the makings of a disaster, but it is a the Home Secretary that the Home Office, in partnership disaster that could be avoided. If the Minister will agree with the Department for Education, had developed and to meet with those of us working on the issue and the adapted its processes to ensure that Dublin transfers are relevant organisations, which have the knowledge and conducted in a safe and secure way, and that there are the advice, there is still time to stop it from happening. new processes in place now that were not there just a few years ago.

11.49 am Stella Creasy: The hon. Gentleman is right that Dublin (East Worthing and Shoreham) (Con): has helped us to support some of the most vulnerable Thank you very much, Mr Bone, for calling me to speak. children in our communities. Does he share my grave It is a pleasure to be back and to serve under your concern about the reports that if there is a no-deal chairmanship. Brexit, that scheme will be abandoned, and about what that means for the children we already have in this This debate is on a subject that I fear might be country and indeed for some of the vulnerable children slightly overshadowed by other events in Parliament who we know may try to get safe passage to this today and for the rest of the week, but it is no less country? Does he agree that it is important to protect important in the impact that it could have on a small Dublin and the principles that it espouses in terms of group of very vulnerable children, and it is absolutely our ability to safeguard children in our own country? right that we should be considering it. I congratulate my co-applicant for this debate, the hon. Member for Tim Loughton: I appreciate that very important point. Birmingham, Selly Oak (Steve McCabe), on the way he It has been the subject of some of the discussions we set out the case and I am grateful to the Backbench have had with previous Home Secretaries. We have Business Committee for granting time for this debate on discussed not only what happens if there is a no-deal the first day back. scenario but what happens if there is an agreement. If I welcome the new Minister, the Under-Secretary of there is an agreement, the terms that should apply to State for the Home Department, my hon. Friend the children seeking to be reunited with families need to be Member for South Ribble (Seema Kennedy), and I at least as generous as those under the Dublin scheme, hope that we will have as positive an engagement with because under our domestic terms a range of family her on these sorts of issues as we had with her predecessors. members are not included. We need to overhaul our In the past, I had many discussions with those predecessors, own laws and increase the flexibility with which we can and they recognised some of the practical implications take on unaccompanied children who seek to be united of immigration policy on some of the most vulnerable with relatives who are often distant relatives but are children to whom we provide a home in this country. I nevertheless the only remaining members of their family, am sure that dialogue will continue with the new Minister such has been the danger and the terror that they have and I look forward to that. had to escape from. 7WH EU Settlement Scheme: Looked-after 3 SEPTEMBER 2019 EU Settlement Scheme: Looked-after 8WH Children and Care Leavers Children and Care Leavers [Tim Loughton] definition of the children who come within that remit will expand to include those aged up to 21, 23 and even So, whatever happens in the next few weeks and months 25 in the case of some, including those children with and goodness knows when, this issue needs to be looked disabilities. Therefore, those figures that she referred to at separately.As I say, I have had very positive discussions. absolutely need to be disassembled, because these children When I and my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State are probably the largest group within the cohort that we for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport have approached are talking about today. the Home Secretary before, having been on trips to The Children’s Society has been very vociferous on Greece with UNICEF to see some of the children who the issue that we are considering today and it has done a are applying for these schemes, we have had a very lot of work on it; I pay tribute to that work, and the positive response and I very much hope that that will Children’s Society has also helped us to prepare for this continue under new Ministers within the Home Office. debate. It has made a calculation—it is not about children But the hon. Member for Walthamstow (Stella Creasy) in care, but it allows us to put things in context—that makes a very pertinent point. Therefore, whatever happens, between the end of August 2018 and the end of June we need clarification under Dublin. this year, 107,110 children under the age of 16 applied However, there is a problem closer to home, which is to the EU settlement scheme. So far, 86% of those what we are discussing today, as a direct result of children have had a conclusion to their application; Brexit. It has not received the level of attention that 65% have got settled status and 35% have got pre-settled many other aspects of the immigration scheme have, status; 180 applications were withdrawn, or were void and it is a cause for concern. I have an interest in it, both or invalid; and no applications have been refused. However, as a former children’s Minister, and as the chair of the that still leaves 14,510 children, who are presumably all-party parliamentary group for children and vice-chair waiting for their applications to be concluded. So there of the all-party parliamentary group for looked-after is also a group of children coming through the normal children and care leavers, which the hon. Member for scheme who are slightly in limbo. Birmingham, Selly Oak very admirably chairs. These Again, the whole point about the 16 and 17-year-olds sorts of issues come up with the children who we see. is that we do not know how that group is broken down. As we know, the EU settlement registration scheme So I repeat the call from the Children’s Society to see aims to establish the immigration status of EU citizens the ages of applicants broken down further, so that legally residing in the UK after we have left the EU. It under-18s—as well as 18 to 25-year-olds, who are another grants settled or pre-settled status, with rights to work, potentially vulnerable subset of children not of “child travel, use public services, access public benefits and so age” but who are equally important and vulnerable—can on. As the hon. Gentleman said, it is the largest registration be properly identified and, as a result, supported. system ever planned in the UK. It has been a huge challenge and not without its problems, certainly early The Children’s Society also says: on. It needs to progress smoothly, to avoid another “Additionally, only 12% of the applications to the EU Settlement Windrush scandal, which has been mentioned. It has Scheme have come from children aged under 16. But analysis been subject to a lot of scrutiny and some criticism by from the Migration Observatory suggests that there were 700,000 EU children under 18 in the UK in 2018, meaning hundreds of the Home Affairs Committee, which I sit on. Weproduced thousands of children may still need to apply for settled status or a report in May on the scheme. In fact, we will take secure British citizenship. If they do not, they risk being left evidence again tomorrow—with the hon. Member for without a lawful status in the UK which means being unable to Stretford and Urmston (Kate Green) there, too—on access education, employment, healthcare, housing and other how our preparedness for Brexit has hopefully improved vital services.” since we last heard from witnesses on this subject. Therefore, this is still a big problem for those children in Over a million people have now registered under that the care system and for those who, though not looked scheme; I gather that nobody has been refused. I myself after, are unaccounted for in the applications that have have had just one complaint from constituents about come through so far. There is still an awful lot of work the way it works, so things are better, if still not ideal. to do. That group of up to about 5,000 looked-after children Kate Green: I agree with the hon. Gentleman that who will need to apply to the EU settlement scheme manypeople have been able to access the scheme successfully does not include care leavers—some of whom may be and it has been very helpful that the Home Office has subject to “staying put” arrangements and other special begun to publish the data on the number of people support measures—or children who are classified as in going through the scheme. However, does he agree that need and who receive support services and vital help we need one particular piece of data to be disentangled, from local authority children’s services departments. which is in relation to 16 to 18-year-olds going through That figure represents something like 6% of all children the scheme? Currently, they are being included in the in care in this country—five years ago it was 3%, so number of adults going through the scheme, but nowhere there has been a rapid increase. Those individuals are in our law is a 16 or 17-year-old treated as an adult. an important part of the looked-after children estate Tim Loughton: The hon. Lady is absolutely right; in and potentially some of the most problematic children fact, she has pre-empted what I will now not bother to to identify, support and register. say later. As she says, 16 and 17-year-olds have been As the hon. Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak assimilated with adults, but children in this country are mentioned, it is a sad fact of life that children in the those under the age of 18. So, it is absolutely essential care system are still much too disproportionately represented that that definition is applied to all children, not least in the youth justice system. Many are victims of people those most vulnerable of children. And as a result of traffickers, many have English as a second language, schemes such as Staying Put, what is effectively the and many rely on being able to access benefits and other 9WH EU Settlement Scheme: Looked-after 3 SEPTEMBER 2019 EU Settlement Scheme: Looked-after 10WH Children and Care Leavers Children and Care Leavers support that we take for granted. Our children’s services fees go well beyond recovering the cost of the service departments are hugely overstretched, and the all-party offered. In the past, it was always the principle that the parliamentary group for children has recently produced charge should be equivalent to the cost of recovery, not a number of reports on the issue. that it should exceed it in order to subsidise services I welcome hugely the announcement of an additional elsewhere in the Home Office. It is difficult to justify the £14 billion for schools. I hope it will be confirmed high fee of £1,012 for a child to whom we have given tomorrow in the comprehensive spending review,although safety and refuge. In most cases the cost will come out goodness knows what will happen tomorrow. It will be of local authority budgets—namely, children’s social very well received, particularly in my part of the world care budgets, which are already greatly pressed—meaning of Sussex and other shire counties, but I want to ensure less money to spend on social workers and on care that children’s social care services are not excluded. placings for other children. Mr Bone, I should have Those services are within the remit of the Department mentioned my entry in the Register of Members’Financial for Education and have faced huge funding challenges, Interests. yet it is the local authority departments that provide Before I conclude with my asks, I wish to reinforce them that will be responsible for looking out for these what the hon. Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak children, for identifying and registering them, and for said about the situation of children coming over from the legal expertise for cases that are not as straightforward France. There has been recent correspondence between as those involving other children. For example, if children the previous Home Secretary—my right hon. Friend are here with a French or German family, they will be the Member for Bromsgrove (Sajid Javid)—and the Home able to make the application on their behalf. Affairs Committee, because we were concerned about what was happening to children in very vulnerable and Luke Graham (Ochil and South Perthshire) (Con): dangerous situations in some of the camps in France, in My hon. Friend is making a fantastic and well-informed particular those with a claim to come to the UK through speech. Of the £14 billion going to education, £2 billion the family reunion and other schemes, the processing of is due to go to Scotland, where the issue is devolved. I which seems to be taking an interminably long time. am concerned about how central Government will work Part of the reason for that, as I found out when I went with devolved and local government to ensure that no to Greece, is that, while potential candidates are lined EU citizen, and certainly no child in care, is left behind, up by charities and authorities, the process relies on and I hope the Minister will clarify that in her closing social workers back in the UK doing the investigative speech. Scotland has only about 8% of the UK population work to ensure that the placements properly take care but about 14% of the UK’s children in care. That is a of the children’s welfare. However, due to the current problem for us, and every single level of government needs recruitment situation, social workers are being pulled in to work together to ensure that no one is left behind. all directions. The previous Home Secretary provided some reassurance Tim Loughton: My hon. Friend makes an important in his letter: point. Although we are talking primarily about the “I am pleased to confirm that the vast majority of the cases looked-after children population in England and Wales, involving children in France awaiting transfer to the UK have there is a particular issue in Scotland. I had not realised been resolved, with many of the children having already transferred, that the proportion was that high. It is really important under either the Dublin III Regulation…or section 67 of the that money going into education, which is also for the Immigration Act 2016, or shortly about to; others are pursuing wider benefit of children in the social care system, is their asylum claim in France.” targeted at those children who need it most. If the issue These are some of the most vulnerable children and, is not dealt with, the problem in Scotland could be frankly, if they were in camps outside Dover our local greater even than that in England and Wales. I hope authority children’s services departments and our that the Minister and the Scottish Administration are Government would have taken care of them. It is listening to my hon. Friend’s case. extraordinary that that has not happened in other countries. Many of the children in this potentially most problematic I am pleased that we have now accelerated the process group will have come here in difficult circumstances and to ensure that those who qualify are brought to a place gone into care, and it is highly likely that they lack birth of safety. certificates and passports and will find it difficult to In conclusion, I have two asks. The first is that prove their length of stay in the UK. They may have been automatic settled status be granted to all looked-after moved around the whole system, as so often happens. children and care leavers. The very fact that those Yet these children—I repeat that they are children—are children are being looked after by local authorities in expected to produce documentation in order to qualify what are recognised as legitimate placements, paid for under the scheme, even though they may not have that by the United Kingdom taxpayer and the local council documentation. Moreover,the local authorities responsible tax payer, is an endorsement of their legitimacy and of for them could face huge challenges and detective work, our responsibility to look after them in the first place. requiring their buying in legal expertise and acting as Surely, therefore, the assumption should be that they advocates at a time when they are already hard pressed absolutely have a rightful place in this country. If there to look after the record number of children from the is a problem with that, we should argue the toss later indigenous population who have recently entered the on, but let us give them protection at the outset. care system. Secondly, the issue of fees needs to be looked at—an The hon. Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak pre- ask of the Home Affairs Committee to the previous empted what I was going to say about the citizenship Immigration Minister,the right hon. Member for Romsey fees, which have been flagged up by the Select Committee and Southampton North (Caroline Nokes). It is such a on Home Affairs. The increase in fees over recent years, complicated system, as the Windrush issue threw up, at all levels, has been extravagant, to put it mildly—the with many different avenues to qualifying for citizenship. 11WH EU Settlement Scheme: Looked-after 3 SEPTEMBER 2019 EU Settlement Scheme: Looked-after 12WH Children and Care Leavers Children and Care Leavers [Tim Loughton] applications, because their carers might not understand the need for them to apply or because local authorities It is a complete minefield that needs to be simplified might be overstretched and not able to give them the and the charges need to be reduced. The complicated nature support that they need to do so. of the system also makes it very expensive. For goodness’ As I have said, many such children will be reliant on sake, on behalf of this small but vulnerable group of legal aid to support them in making a sufficiently strong looked-after children and care leavers, I urge the application. Social workers do not have the expertise, Government to waive their fees for citizenship applications. training, capacity, or indeed the legal right to give That is essential, whether or not we have a deal to come advice on immigration matters; they would be in breach out of the EU—which matters not a jot to those children. of immigration law if they tried to. So it is vital that the They need our help and support. This country has Government, having finally tabled, after a year, the recognised their need and has provided support. Let us order to bring immigration cases for looked-after children not let bureaucracy stand in the way of continuing to within the ambit of the Legal Aid, Sentencing and do the right thing by those children, as we have a proud Punishment of Offenders Act 2012, get the order put record of doing. through in good time before 31 October. I hope the Minister will be able to commit today that the Government Mr Peter Bone (in the Chair): It might be useful for will ensure that that happens. the House to know that the wind-up speeches will have to start no later than 12.30. I have two Members trying I want to mention a couple of other points: first, the to catch my eye, so perhaps they will bear that in mind. issue of children’s best interests. I recognise that the Children Act 2004 requires that local authorities discharge 12.11 pm their functions having regard to the welfare of children, and I also recognise that section 55 of the Borders, Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab): I am Citizenship and Immigration Act 2009 requires immigration grateful for the chance to contribute, Mr Bone. It is a authorities to take into account the need to safeguard pleasure to speak under your chairmanship. I welcome and promote the welfare of children in the UK. However, the Minister to her post and congratulate my hon. the lack of systems and processes to embed children’s Friend the Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak (Steve best interests into the settled status decision-making McCabe) on securing this debate. process means that those issues might not be properly I share the concerns that have been expressed today. addressed. What guarantees can the Minister give us It is estimated that in the north-west there are around that the EU settled status scheme will operate so that 700 looked-after children of European economic area or children’s best interests are always paramount? Will it Swiss nationality, but we do not know the numbers for be made explicit in the settled status scheme, and will sure. It is vital that we gather the data, so I was pleased she undertake to carry out a child rights impact assessment to see in a written answer to Lord Russell on 9 July that of the operation of the scheme? the Home Office will survey local authorities to benchmark I, too, want to highlight particular concerns in relation the current uptake of the scheme and to baseline cohorts to EEA and Swiss national looked-after children in the of EEA citizen looked-after children and care leavers, criminal justice system. As we have heard, looked-after and that the survey will take place at set intervals children are disproportionately represented in the criminal throughout the lifetime of the European Union settled justice system. Half of children in custody have been in status scheme. care. As with local authorities, there is a dearth of data Is the Minister able to update us about progress on on the nationality and status of children in the criminal gathering the survey data? Will she confirm that it will justice system. Will the Government put in place include children in need—a vulnerable group not arrangements to collect centrally nationality data for encompassed by the provisions of the settled status children in youth offending services and in detention as scheme and special help from local authorities, as my a matter of urgency, so that where applications need to hon. Friend pointed out? Will she also confirm that be expedited for those children, that can take place? there will be an opportunity to disentangle data from the statistics in relation to 16 and 17-year-olds? As my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak has said, our criminal justice system recognises As others have said, we are talking about the most the difference between childhood and adult offending, vulnerable children in the country who may have suffered for example, in sentencing or in the time that it takes for appalling abuse or neglect. As we have also heard, securing a conviction to become spent. However, that difference status for those children is absolutely vital for them to is not clearly recognised in the EU settled status scheme. thrive and maximise their potential in adult life. I share Any child or young person over the age of criminal the concerns expressed about local authorities only being responsibility—in other words, over the age of 10— required to ensure that applications are made for children will be subject to criminality checks. Where checks under section 31 care orders. I invite the Minister to explain reveal “serious or persistent” offending, a referral will why other children looked after in the ambit of section 20 be made to immigration enforcement for a case-by-case —or those, for example, who are privately fostered or determination as to whether an applicant should be are care leavers—are not also included within the obligation refused status on the basis of “suitability”. I recognise on local authorities: they, too, are very vulnerable young that the Government have stated that those under 18 will people and children. not be required to answer questions relating to suitability The Government intended the application process for and that children under 18 will be deported only on settled status to be straightforward and simple. However, imperative grounds of public security, but there is no as we have heard, that will not be the case for many single definition of what kinds of offences are likely to looked-after children because of the difficulties they be captured in that exception. It would be useful if might have in accessing documentation to support their Ministers could guarantee to set out the higher threshold 13WH EU Settlement Scheme: Looked-after 3 SEPTEMBER 2019 EU Settlement Scheme: Looked-after 14WH Children and Care Leavers Children and Care Leavers that will apply in guidance, and also confirm that both Some of the background information that we have been the non-disclosure requirements and the higher threshold given endorses that. The Migration Observatory’s report applying to under-18s will continue after 31 October, on settled status suggested that upwards of 661,000 even in the event of no deal. non-Irish EU citizen children could be living in the UK, The settled status scheme also fails to differentiate which indicates that at least half a million children who between adults and children in relation to the continuous could be eligible to apply to the EU settlement scheme are residence criteria: the general caseworker guidance makes yet to make an application. I ask the Minister what has no distinction between adults and children in terms of been done to address that figure in relation to those who resetting the clock on residence following a period of have not applied. That clearly needs to be looked at. imprisonment or detention. Will the Government look I also ask the Minister how many of those children at amending the scheme to ensure that a custodial are in local authority care.Among the European population, sentence imposed on a child does not impact on the there will be thousands of children and young people calculation of their continuous residence for the purpose who are currently looked after by local authorities. of making an application for settled status? Although those children make up a fraction of the Finally, may I invite the Government to publish overall population, I believe that we owe that fraction a specific guidance on children and young people applying special set of responsibilities, so I endorse what The to the settled status scheme from within the secure Children’s Society has said. There is a real concern that estate or the wider criminal justice scheme? Will the we are not meeting our obligations to that admittedly Government consider granting settled status to all children small number of children; another purpose of today’s irrespective of their criminal history? I echo the calls debate is to highlight that issue to the Minister and made in this Chamber this morning and invite the hopefully receive a response that addresses some of our Government to supply settled status to all looked-after concerns. I am sure that she is aware of the issue and that children and children in care. We risk those children her Department is working on it—perhaps the Minister being left in a limbo that will affect them all through will indicate the contrary—but I am anxious to hear their adult lives if we do not make their status absolutely how it is being taken care of. I am sure the Minister will clear and safe now. As we have heard, those children be happy to outline that detail in her response. have already demonstrated their right to our protection. Again from the background information about British We cannot afford to let them down as a result of a citizenship, some concerns have been raised that although decision to leave the European Union, which was in no it might be more advantageous for eligible looked-after way any of their making. children to apply for British citizenship instead of settled status, they could be unaware of their rights or face 12.19 pm difficulty paying the fee.The hon. Member for Birmingham, Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): It is a pleasure to Selly Oak referred to the £1,012 that it takes to register follow the hon. Member for Stretford and Urmston a child as a British citizen, and under the present system (Kate Green). I thank her for her contribution. I give a it is not clear how those who may automatically be special thanks to the hon. Member for East Worthing British will be identified. There are likely to be significant and Shoreham (Tim Loughton) and also the hon. Member numbers of European national children and young for Birmingham, Selly Oak (Steve McCabe), who secured people who could fall under those nationality provisions, the debate and set the scene so well. All their contributions but who do not know their rights. Again, I look to the have been excellent and I congratulate them. It is also Minister for a response. nice to see the Minister in her place. She has had a tour I hope that looked-after children are not completing of many ministerial positions over the last while, and I settlement scheme applications on their own, without look forward to her response to this debate. If it follows legal advice. However, it is quite possible that they are, in line with responses that she has given when holding and if so, they will not be fully aware of their options. responsibility for other portfolios, it will be a good one. That could result in an incorrect grant of pre-settled I was happy to support the application for today’s status, or their being refused outright or potentially debate, and spoke to the hon. Member for Birmingham, missing another legal avenue available to them, such as Selly Oak about it beforehand. I have been contacted by applying for British citizenship. We must make sure that many people in relation to this issue; I will specifically applicants have all the help they need to fill in those mention The Children’s Society, which has real concerns applications. Again, it is so important that we address that we must seek to address in this place, whether there these issues. is a deal—I sincerely hope there will be—or there is not As Members know, I am a firm Brexiteer. I remain of a deal, which, speaking as a Brexiteer, will not be a that opinion, but that does not in any way diminish the disappointment either. The fact is that we are leaving sense of compassion or obligation that I have as an Europe, and we must do the business for those looked-after individual, or this Parliament should have. Although I children. We cannot ignore that. Whether we are in or do not agree with many parliamentary colleagues regarding out of Europe, this issue has to be addressed; everyone the merits of staying in Europe, I sincerely agree that we has said so, but it is important that we put it on the must do what we can to ensure that those who need record. That is the reason for today’s debate. special status are able to access it, especially those who An email sent to me by The Children’sSociety expressed are children and not aware of what all this Brexit talk a very clear concern: actually means for them. It may be lost on them. “the estimated 700,000 EU national children living in the UK are Combined data from the four nations highlights that lost within public debate about the EUSS. The quarterly immigration statistics show that only 12% of the applications to the EU there were over 95,000 looked-after children in UK local Settlement Scheme received by the end of June 2019 came from authorities in 2017—a figure that has probably increased children under 16, meaning an estimated 600,000 EU national over the past couple of years. Although the Government children still need to regularise their status before the deadline.” do not currently collect and publish data centrally about 15WH EU Settlement Scheme: Looked-after 3 SEPTEMBER 2019 EU Settlement Scheme: Looked-after 16WH Children and Care Leavers Children and Care Leavers [Jim Shannon] Luke Graham: Would the hon. Gentleman confirm the number of hours that were given to the Scottish looked-after children’s nationality, only their ethnicity, Parliament to discuss emergency legislation that was a recent parliamentary response highlighted that the rushed through in Holyrood? Home Office has estimated that some 5,000 EU children are currently in care in the UK, not including care Stuart C. McDonald: I have to say that I do not know leavers or children classified as in need. the answer to that question. I am sure that it was We must ensure that those children’s social workers perfectly adequate. [Interruption.] are crystal clear about the steps that must be taken to ensure their place here post 31 October. Social workers Mr Peter Bone (in the Chair): Order. It is probably have a key role, and it is important that they are enabled good that you do not know the answer, because it would to carry out their responsibility on behalf of those be totally out of order. young people. Again, there is no centrally collected and publicly available data about European national care Stuart C. McDonald: Thank you very much for coming leavers, although the Government estimate that 4,000 to my assistance, Mr Bone. care leavers to age 25 are in scope. I believe that steps I join hon. Members in welcoming the Minister to could be taken to ensure that this group of people are her place, but I do have to start with a slightly cheeky made aware of anything that they must do to ensure question: is she actually the immigration Minister? This they remain post 31 October. settlement scheme is being rolled out and huge reform I have another quick question about care leavers, of the immigration system is ahead, but we spent the whom the hon. Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak summer not knowing who was actually responsible for referred to in his introduction, and others have referred immigration matters and where I should send my angry to as well. Figures from across the whole of the United letters—or, indeed, my very constructive and helpful Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland are letters. If she is the immigration Minister, she can look clear that in the year ending 31 March 2018, local forward to lots of correspondence in the weeks ahead. authorities were in touch with 88% of 19 to 21-year-old Turning to the issue at hand, other hon. Members care leavers. To be counted as “in touch”, there should have eloquently and persuasively set out the significant be contact between the local authority and the young challenges that looked-after children and care leavers person about three months before, and one month after, will face in accessing either the immigration status that the young person’s birthday. Local authorities therefore is in their best interest, or the citizenship status that do not necessarily maintain contact with all care leavers, they are entitled to and will be in their best interest. I and it is possible that some will fall between the cracks. have also heard concerns about the under-representation I ask the Minister, honestly and respectfully, what has of children among those who have already applied for been done to make sure those young people do not fall settled status. between the cracks; to address the 12% who have not On the settled status scheme, as the hon. Member for been contacted; and to ensure that those young care Birmingham, Selly Oak said, even though the Home leavers do not find themselves without the opportunity Office is pulling out all the stops—I appreciate it is to advance their applications. putting a lot of work and resource into it—hundreds of I ask the Minister to outline in her response what the thousands of EU citizens or their family members will current situation is in relation to the questions that I almost certainly not apply for or achieve settled status, and others have asked, and whether she believes that or even pre-settled status, by the deadline. As we have more can reasonably be done to ensure that all the heard, for some, that will be due to a lack of awareness support that those vulnerable children and young adults or to legal complexities that mean that they do not need is available. To me, it is important that those who understand that they need to apply; for others, there need help get it and that those who need support get will be barriers in relation to the evidence that needs to that support. It is part of my responsibility as a Member be sent in. of Parliament, and a collective responsibility of all of Looked-after children, care leavers and other vulnerable us in this House, to ensure that this issue is addressed. persons will be over-represented in those groups and the We look to the Minister for a response. consequences for them of failing to apply in time will be dire, as they will be for everyone affected. Overnight, 12.27 pm they will be deemed to be in the country illegally and Stuart C. McDonald (Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and the full weight of the hostile environment will kick in: Kirkintilloch East) (SNP): It is a pleasure to serve university, education, some healthcare, bank accounts, under your chairmanship, Mr Bone. I pay tribute to the driving licences, employment and social security will all hon. Members for Birmingham, Selly Oak (Steve McCabe) be put out of reach. and for East Worthing and Shoreham (Tim Loughton) What can we do to stop that? From my party’s point for pursuing this issue and securing this debate via the of view, the solution is to keep the free movement of Backbench Business Committee. I also pay tribute to all people by abandoning Brexit altogether or by securing hon. Members who have contributed today; a tremendous a deal that includes retaining all the advantages of free range of expertise has been on show. I was slightly movement. It would be brave and surprising if the new surprised that no hon. Member wanted to pay tribute Minister were to announce that she accepted that to, and thank, our munificent Prime Minister for giving proposition, so if that is not possible, the Prime Minister us humble MPs the opportunity to actually debate a should do what he, the new Home Secretary and the Brexit issue today, because apparently that is something new Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster promised we cannot take for granted anymore. Perhaps we can during the referendum campaign, which is to enshrine address that issue later today in the main Chamber. the rights of EU citizens in law. 17WH EU Settlement Scheme: Looked-after 3 SEPTEMBER 2019 EU Settlement Scheme: Looked-after 18WH Children and Care Leavers Children and Care Leavers In a declaratory system, EU nationals would not be to do all that. All those young people must have access required to apply to retain their right to live here, but to specialist legal advice and support, which should be would be granted that right in an Act of Parliament. funded by the Home Office. They would have to apply to the settled status scheme The duty of local authorities must be to do everything simply for a document to prove their position in future. possible to secure that expert advice, not to provide Professor Stijn Smismans and the3million have worked makeshift alternative advice that they are not qualified extensively on proposals about how to do that; the to deliver. As other hon. Members have said, that duty Home Office should engage with them. must extend to all looked-after children and care leavers, not just those for whom the local authorities have It is not a perfect solution because, of course, after parental responsibility. the deadline, hundreds of thousands of people would still not have applied for the necessary evidence of their I echo the comments of the hon. Member for Stretford settled or pre-settled status. However, the simple truth is and Urmston (Kate Green) about legal aid. The that they would have the right to be here, and would announcement in July 2018 that legal aid for separated therefore still be able to provide proof of that right and children with immigration issues would be reintroduced, to secure the necessary documents or other means of including for children who need advice and support to proof as soon as it became apparent to them that they secure EU settled status or understand their right to were required to do that. British citizenship, is yet to be implemented. It is essential that we know what will happen to that proposed change, The Home Office’s refusal to listen or understand given that Parliament may not be sitting for much that simple fact is infuriating. It has made various longer. More broadly, immigration and citizenship should nonsensical arguments about a declaratory system being be brought within the scope of legal aid, as they are in responsible for the Windrush fiasco, but that is not what Scotland. a single inquiry into that horrible episode has determined The distinct issue of citizenship is relevant to many —it is simply not true. Under a declaratory system, care leavers and looked-after children, because a significant those who missed the deadline would have a chance to number of them will be entitled to register as British rectify their position. Under the Home Office system as citizens. The key barriers are, again, a lack of awareness established, hundreds of thousands of people—thousands and the extortionate cost of vindicating those rights via of whom might be looked-after children, care leavers the registration process, as other hon. Members have and other vulnerable citizens—will be left here without said. I repeat, therefore, that we need measures to legal status, which would be an absolute disaster. I call ensure access to legal advice and to address the outrageous for a declaratory system for everyone, but if that is not fees being charged by the Home Office.The new Chancellor, possible, I absolutely join other hon. Members in calling when he was Home Secretary, acknowledged that the for a declaratory system for looked-after children and £1,000 fee was a huge sum of money to charge children; care leavers. I hope that the Home Office will think I would say it is disgraceful, particularly when we are about changing paths now. talking about looked-after children and care leavers. In the meantime, has the Minister or the Department At the end of the day, those kids are every bit as made any attempt to estimate how many people they entitled to citizenship as anybody in this Chamber and expect not to apply before the deadline? Will she make they should not be prevented from obtaining it by it clear today what will happen to those who miss the extraordinary fees. I urge the Minister not to do what deadline, including looked-after children and care leavers? other Immigration Ministers have done, which is to How will they be treated? There has been an incredible conflate the issue with migration fees or the adult lack of clarity on that. If the Home Office will not change naturalisation processes—they are completely different. tack, MPs should be allowed to debate and vote on the We are talking about a group of children for whom issue. Wedebated it during the passage of the Immigration Parliament expressly protected the right of citizenship and Social Security Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) when it ended the general provision of citizenship by Bill. What has happened to that Bill and what will birth in 1981. If Home Office officials demanded £1,000 happen to it now? from every mother leaving the maternity ward to secure their kid’s citizenship, there would rightly be outrage, Regardless of whether the Home Office chooses to but to charge those kids for theirs is as morally reprehensible. change its fundamental approach, or, more likely, is In the case of looked-after children and care leavers, at forced to by legislation, or whether it presses ahead with least, the Home Office must see how outrageous its its current model, hon. Members have raised other issues position has been up to this point and act accordingly. to address and actions to pursue. The Home Office In conclusion, I congratulate the hon. Members for must ensure that there is sufficient funding for awareness- East Worthing and Shoreham and for Birmingham, raising programmes, with a particular focus on making Selly Oak on securing the debate. I support them in sure that local authorities have a clear understanding of what they are trying to achieve and will happily work what is required of them in relation to looked-after with them to attempt to persuade the Home Office to children and care leavers, and the resources to ensure listen. that those groups can obtain all the advice and support they need. 12.37 pm As has been said, the position of many of those Afzal Khan (Manchester,Gorton) (Lab): It is a pleasure youngsters is incredibly complicated. For a child, choosing to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Bone. I, too, the right application to make or whether to make an congratulate the Minister on her post and look forward application at all, or knowing whether they might have to working constructively with her. I thank my hon. Friend a right to citizenship, is hugely complicated but has the Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak (Steve McCabe) profound implications. We cannot expect social workers for securing this important debate and bringing this 19WH EU Settlement Scheme: Looked-after 3 SEPTEMBER 2019 EU Settlement Scheme: Looked-after 20WH Children and Care Leavers Children and Care Leavers [Afzal Khan] that immigration status is secured for looked-after children. Does the Minister not consider securing a looked-after serious issue to the fore. I also thank The Children’s child’s immigration status to be a fundamental part of Society, the Refugee and Migrant Children’s Consortium the state’s corporate parenting responsibilities? and the Greater Manchester Immigration Aid Unit for Thirdly, I am concerned about the legal advice being their comprehensive briefings. offered to looked-after children. There is potential for As we head ever closer to a disastrous no-deal Brexit, children with the right to apply for British citizenship the rights of the 3.8 million EU nationals living in the being advised to pursue settled status in the rush to UK are still in jeopardy. By a conservative estimate, ensure they are protected. Does the Minister agree that 5,000 EU children live in care in the UK and a further only those with sufficient expertise should be giving 4,000 care leavers will be affected by the EU settlement immigration advice to children in care and care leavers? scheme. Across the UK, our already stretched local All looked-after children have the right to seek legal authorities are now responsible for safeguarding the aid in applying for their settled status. What steps is the rights of thousands of European looked-after children Minister taking to make local authorities aware of their and care leavers. right to apply for exceptional immigration case funding If that already vulnerable group of children does not for children in their care? Will the Minister also guarantee secure their rights after Brexit, we could easily double parliamentary time in what remains of this Session for the number of undocumented children living in the the amendment to the Legal Aid, Sentencing and UK, which is a situation that none of us want to see, as Punishment of Offenders Act 2012 that would cement I am sure the Minister agrees. Those undocumented that right in legislation? Labour is committed to providing children and young people would then be subjected to early legal advice for all immigration cases. Legal aid is all the Government’s hostile environment policies: they not just a force for good, but could also save the will be unable to work, drive or open a bank account, Treasury millions in the long run. and they will effectively be barred from college, university As we all know, there are a multitude of problems at and secondary healthcare. every stage in the immigration process for children in care, and for just about all other vulnerable groups in That is why Labour supports a declaratory scheme, our society.That includes the cost of citizenship applications, as opposed to the Government’s constitutive scheme. A the time it takes to apply and the hostile environment. declaratory scheme would ensure that all EU citizens There are many issues I have not had time to touch on living in the UK automatically retained their rights today. I hope the Minister will answer the questions we after Brexit. I had many discussions with the previous have raised. It is vital that no vulnerable child or young Minister about the issue and I hope that the new ministerial person is allowed to fall through the gaps of the settled team will look again at the proposal. Without reforming status scheme. the system entirely, it is imperative that the Government look again at the problems faced by children in care and care leavers in applying for settled status. 12.43 pm I want to outline my three most pressing concerns The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the about children in local authority care and care leavers Home Department (Seema Kennedy): It is a pleasure to who need to secure settled status. A number of other serve under your chairmanship, Mr Bone. I thank the Members have also touched on these points. hon. Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak (Steve McCabe), my hon. Friend the Member for East Worthing and First, many looked-after children and care leavers Shoreham (Tim Loughton) and the hon. Member for lack the documentation necessary to complete their Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East (Stuart application under the settlement scheme. Many children C. McDonald) for securing this extremely important in care will not have the identity documents that the debate on the EU settlement scheme and looked-after Home Office requires for settled status. If a child is children and care leavers. The co-chairs of the all-party born in the UK, they will more than likely not have a parliamentary group are great champions for children passport or identity card to prove their nationality. It is and it is right to discuss this issue today. estimated that more than half a million children fall into this category. The EU settlement scheme is designed to deliver on the Government’s aim that EU citizens can obtain their As the largest-scale registration programme the Home status quickly and easily. The principle behind it is the Office has ever embarked on, the settlement scheme has presumption of granting status. The Prime Minister has brought into stark relief how little we know about the made it clear that EU citizens living in this country will immigration status of the children in the care of the have the absolute certainty of the right to live and remain state. Does the Minister agree that we must ensure that in this country. Ensuring that those who are most these children do not fall through the gaps just because vulnerable, such as looked-after children, are supported they are unable to prove their nationality? to obtain status has always been and continues to be a My second concern is the lack of information available core element in the delivery of the scheme, and I want to local authorities. The Government have spent the last to assure all Members who have spoken today, including 10 years slashing local authority budgets and now they those who have left their places, that that is a cross- expect those cash-strapped councils to take responsibility departmental priority for the Government. for registering the thousands of EU national children in My Department has engaged widely, including with their care. Earlier in the year, following the roll-out of the Department for Education, the Local Government the settlement scheme, the Government issued guidance Association—my predecessor spoke at its conference, to all local authorities on how they should be supporting addressing this point—and the Association of Directors children in their care and care leavers, which stated that of Children’s Services, as well as their equivalents in the there is no general duty on local authorities to ensure devolved Administrations and in Northern Ireland, 21WH EU Settlement Scheme: Looked-after 3 SEPTEMBER 2019 EU Settlement Scheme: Looked-after 22WH Children and Care Leavers Children and Care Leavers to understand and address the needs of looked-after because of family circumstances. As far as I am aware, children and care leavers and to ensure that they are local authorities vouching for the fact can be adequate supported. Guidance has been issued regarding the role documentation. and responsibilities of local authorities for making or supporting applications for looked-after children. Stella Creasy: One of the critical lessons from the pilot schemes in my local authority was the difficulty in The scheme was first rolled out in the spring of this getting hold of documentation, because embassies in year.One million people have been granted status already— other countries want parents to be involved. It comes that is the figure from August. If we are in a deal situation, down to a very simple question: do we want social the scheme will be open until the middle of 2021. In a workers to be chasing up embassies and parents, or no-deal situation, people will have until 31 December working with these kids? Is the Minister providing next year to apply. a guarantee that if my local authority simply said, Members have rightly raised a lot of points about the “Yes, we believe this child is an EU citizen and therefore scheme in general and about the specific cohort of should be entitled to status in this country,” that will be children. I understand the point made by the hon. Member enough? If she is not, she is asking social workers—who for Birmingham, Selly Oak—he has great experience do not have a legal background—to go chasing information both from his work in this place and from before that they cannot get hold of, not because of rules in this that—on the different strata of children that we are country but because of rules in other countries, and discussing. that risks the children not getting the status they urgently The system has been designed to make sure that a need. successor of mine who stands here in 40 years’ time will not be dealing with a system where people do not have Seema Kennedy: We need to be very careful, because their status. That is why we have registration—so that there are two issues— EU citizens, particularly children and vulnerable people who have built their lives in this country— Stella Creasy: Yes or no? Seema Kennedy: May I please finish my point? For Stuart C. McDonald: Will the Minister give way? some of the children we are talking about, the local authority is the parent. A second group might be the Seema Kennedy: Can I just finish this point? Then I parents of section 20 children, and another group includes will give way, to either an angry or a helpful comment. children in need. The problem is that some children still The registration scheme exists so that citizens,particularly have their parents, who, perhaps at a later point, might children and vulnerable people who have built their come back in order to make the application for them. lives in this country, do not have difficulty evidencing We are talking about three distinct groups of children. their rights to live and work here. That speaks to a point It is important that we recognise that, although some made by the hon. Member for Stretford and Urmston children might temporarily be under a section 20 order, (Kate Green). they might return to their parents afterwards. Stuart C. McDonald: The Minister speaks of her Kate Green: Will the Minister give way? successor in a few years’ time being able to say that everyone has status, but only a declaratory system will Seema Kennedy: I must finish this point. I have asked do that. If we do not have a declaratory system, it is officials to look at the hon. Lady’s point about the local inevitable that tens of thousands—almost certainly authority giving the evidence, and I will write to her in hundreds of thousands—of EU citizens, including more detail. vulnerable people, will not have status. Does the Minister Kate Green: That was the point I was going to make. accept that? Does the Home Office have an estimate of how many people it expects not to go through the Seema Kennedy: It is important to note that not all process in time? the children we are talking about have local authorities that are in loco parentis. Seema Kennedy: I profoundly disagree with that point. On the role of local authorities,a new burdens assessment The registration scheme ensures that those EU citizens has been made. It will take into account the important who are here will have settled status. If not, there will be work of identifying the cohort of children and their differences, because people will not necessarily be able parents. We have asked local authorities to return figures to prove whether they were here at that point. by the end of August—I think the hon. Lady referred to Focusing specifically on the cohort under discussion, that—and we are currently co-ordinating those returns, hon. Members have quite rightly referred to the fact which came in only a few days ago. That is how we are that many of those children do not have the same supporting local authorities. documentation as most of us in this Chamber, because Wehave given £9 million to 57 voluntary and community of the life situations they have experienced. We share sector organisations across the country, to help us reach those concerns. They might have no identity document, an estimated 200,000 vulnerable or at-risk EU citizens as they might have had complex or chaotic lives. and help them apply. Of course, it is not only children It is absolutely right that local authorities and health who might be in a vulnerable cohort; the Home Office is and social care trusts in Northern Ireland should obtain very aware of that. Additional support is available to the necessary identity documents for a child in care people who do not have the appropriate access, skills to ensure that they have uninterrupted access to services, or confidence to apply online. There are more than but the Home Office guidance on this scheme makes it 300 assisted digital locations across the UK, and there clear that applicants can apply without an identity is an opportunity for a paper application in some document, as they might be unable to provide one circumstances. 23WH EU Settlement Scheme: Looked-after 3 SEPTEMBER 2019 EU Settlement Scheme: Looked-after 24WH Children and Care Leavers Children and Care Leavers Stuart C. McDonald: I thank the Minister for giving in a no-deal situation, or the summer of 2021 under the way again—she is being very generous with her time. withdrawal agreement. The Government have a special Charities are telling us that they do not have the resources responsibility for these children and care leavers. With to do all the work that is required. Has she put in a these measures in place, I am confident that we will request to the new Chancellor for additional funding, ensure that they secure a permanent status under the so that we can leave absolutely no stone unturned in scheme. ensuring that we help each and every vulnerable person I will touch on citizenship fees, because all hon. in this country who needs to apply? Members who have spoken have talked about them. Settled status gives indefinite leave to remain in the UK, Seema Kennedy: The scheme is not designed to require but some countries do not allow dual citizenship. It is a a lawyer or legal advice, so it is simple to use. I recognise personal choice; citizenship is not mandatory. However, that there might be complications in some of the cases we have committed to reviewing fees for child registration involving vulnerable and non-EEA dependents. However, applications and will keep the House updated. the fact that more than one third of the eligible people On the issue of asylum, which I think was raised by have already signed up in six months is a testament to the hon. Member for Stretford and Urmston or my its design as a simple system. hon. Friend the Member for East Worthing and Shoreham, the UK takes extremely seriously its responsibilities to Steve McCabe: I am grateful to the Minister for unaccompanied children. As my hon. Friend mentioned, giving way. She might be right to say that the overall the numbers have been increasing. In the past 12 months, scheme was designed not to require great legal expertise, we gave protection to more than 7,000 children. Whether but the evidence of the Coram pilot shows that that is we have a deal or not, co-operation on asylum will exactly what was required for the group of children that continue with EU countries, which is why we have taken this debate is about. Surely that is the point she needs to proactive action to ensure that, whatever the circumstances, address. Dublin requests that relate to family reunification and that have not been resolved on the date we leave the EU Seema Kennedy: On the Coram report and the will continue to be considered under existing rules. Department’s contact with all the important groups that assist vulnerable people, guidance has been published. I will touch quickly on the issue of criminality thresholds. Most importantly, guidance is being refreshed—this I, too, queried why there was a 16-to-18 gap. Applicants debate is part of that, to ensure the guidance is relevant. under 18 are now not asked about criminality, but a There has been a series of teleconferences for social police national computer check is still conducted if they workers and local authority staff, and they will continue are aged over 10. Only serious criminality, which forms monthly until next March. There is a designated telephone consideration of , is taken into account—serious number for local authorities to call the Settlement persistent offenders with extended custodial sentences. Resolution Centre. This has been a very important debate. Highlighting I will touch on an important issue that the hon. the issue at this earlyish stage of the EU settlement Member for Stretford and Urmston mentioned, namely scheme is very pertinent, and I thank the hon. Member legal aid. She has quite rightly mentioned the fact that for Birmingham, Selly Oak for securing the debate. We the order has not been debated, and I will speak urgently will continue to engage with relevant stakeholders, to to my colleagues at the Ministry of Justice in order to understand and address the needs of looked-after children bring that forward. Until then, applicants can apply in care. I reassure the House that the Government are through the exceptional case funding scheme. absolutely committed to ensuring that we look after children and care leavers, and that they are supported to Luke Graham: The Minister is making earnest promises obtain their status under the EU settlement scheme. to work with local government to ensure that no child is left behind. Can she assure me and other colleagues 12.58 pm that her Department will work with the devolved Administrations and local authorities in Scotland to Steve McCabe: I thank everyone who has taken part ensure that all children are cared for, and that the in the debate. I thank the Minister for her comments. I opportunities provided in England are provided elsewhere hope she will appreciate, as I said at the outset, that this in the UK? is a cross-party matter. The hon. Members raising it are doing so not because of our views on Brexit, but Seema Kennedy: I am very committed to working because of the risk to this particular group of children. with my counterparts in the devolved Administrations. I ask her to focus on that. Although I recognise that the It is a testament to the importance of this debate that intention is not to make the scheme complicated, I hon. Members from all four nations are present—well, implore her to look again at some of the legal complexities not the Welsh, unfortunately—which shows how strongly that local authorities are raising, because they look as if we feel about protecting vulnerable children in this they will adversely impact on her good intentions. situation. Question put and agreed to. Colleagues asked what would happen should children Resolved, fail to make an application by the deadline, which, as I That this House has considered the EU Settlement Scheme have said, will be either the end of December next year and looked-after children and care leavers. 25WH 3 SEPTEMBER 2019 Kettering General Hospital Urgent 26WH Care Hub Kettering General Hospital Urgent Care to the number of houses that are being built locally, the Hub increase in the local population and the fact that—thank goodness—we are all living longer. In Northamptonshire, there has been a particular increase in the number of 1 pm elderly patients who are served by the local hospital. I Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): I beg to thank the hon. Gentleman for attending and for his move, support. That this House has considered the urgent care hub at Kettering In 2016, Dr Kevin Reynard of the national NHS General Hospital. emergency care improvement programme visited Kettering’s May I say what an unexpected pleasure it is to see you A&E and concluded that: in the Chair, Mr Bone. I am sure that we will all benefit “The current emergency department is the most cramped and from your wise guidance and counsel. I thank the limiting emergency department I have ever come across in the Speaker for granting me this debate and welcome the UK, USA, Australia or India. I cannot see how the team, irrespective Minister to his place. We are joined today by Mr Simon of crowding, can deliver a safe, modern emergency medicine Weldon, the outstanding chief executive of Kettering service within the current footprint.” General Hospital, our very popular local hospital. Of Simon Weldon is also extremely concerned about patient course, you will know him as well as I do, Mr Bone. safety. He said to me that unless we get the situation Kettering General Hospital is an extremely popular sorted, sooner or later there would be a patient death in and well-liked local hospital. It is 122 years old this Kettering’s A&E. year, and still occupies the site that it first occupied in An impact of the incredibly cramped department is 1897. There cannot be many hospitals in the country that staff do not have clear lines of sight on some of the that are still based almost entirely in their original most unwell patients to monitor their conditions locations from more than a century ago. appropriately. Privacy and dignity for patients cannot Today, we are talking about the urgent need for an be maintained due to overcrowding and cramped spaces. urgent care hub on the Kettering General Hospital site. Patients wait longer than the national limits, as there is We need the urgent care hub because the hospital is physically not enough space to treat the numbers coming such a popular one that it simply cannot cope with the through the door. Children have to wait in open corridors number of patients admitted to A&E at the moment. and go through adult areas to receive treatment. A lack Everyone—all the local NHS professionals in every of space to offload ambulances often results in long queues NHS organisation in Northamptonshire—agrees that and inhibits ambulance response times to 999 calls. The the best solution to the challenges the hospital faces is A&E rooms do not comply with many current health £49 million for the development of an urgent care hub building standards and there is a lack of natural daylight. on the site, which the hospital needs. The Care Quality Commission and other inspections An urgent care hub would basically be a one-stop have consistently raised multiple concerns, for both shop for GP services and out-of-hours-care, an onsite adult and paediatric patients, about the size and limitations pharmacy, a minor injuries unit, facilities for social of the estate. Most importantly, as I have described, the services and mental health care, access to community number of patients has now reached a critical point and care services for the frail elderly, and a replacement for staff need to manage safety daily, patient by patient. our A&E department. The most crucial aspect of that is For health professionals who take pride in their job, the the A&E department, which was built 25 years ago in challenges of working in Kettering A&E are becoming 1994 to cope with 40,000 attendances each year. Last unbearable. year, 91,200 patients came through that very same A&E. In the next 10 years, local population growth is This year, we are on track to pass the 100,000-mark for expected to far exceed the national average and our patient attendances, which is well over 150% of the catchment includes the fastest growing borough outside department’s capacity. By 2045, 170,000 attendances London, in our neighbouring constituency of Corby. In are expected at the same site the last census, out of 348 districts across the country, Kettering was sixth for growth in the number of households Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): It is not only Kettering and 31st for population increase, while Corby has the General Hospital—A&Es across many constituencies country’s highest birth rate. Our local area has been suffer from similar problems. Does the hon. Gentleman included as part of the Cambridge-Milton Keynes-Oxford agree that we would all benefit if, in A&Es—particularly corridor, in which there is a commitment to build 35,000 that of Kettering General Hospital, which the debate is new homes in the next 10 years. about—there were better patient care and a better working environment for health professionals? In A&Es, it is Kettering General Hospital expects a 21% increase in important that health professionals are happy in their over-80s and 10,000 more A&E attendances in the next work and feel that they can move forward in what is five years alone. Despite some temporary modifications possibly the most stressful specialty. In the long run, the over recent years, including moving other patient services investment to which the hon. Gentleman referred will off the hospital site to accommodate delivering safe pay for itself in better patient outcomes and better emergency care, detailed surveys show that there now staffing capacity. remain no further opportunities to extend the current department and that a new building is required on the Mr Hollobone: I am most grateful for that unexpected site. contribution from Northern Ireland—it is always a Following those safety reviews and surveys, the hospital delight to see the hon. Gentleman in his place, and I has developed a business case for a fit-for-purpose thank him for his support. Of course, I agree that A&E emergency care facility that will meet local population facilities across the country are under pressure, but that growth for the next 30 years. It was developed with all pressure is particularly acute in Kettering, not least due health and social care partners across Northamptonshire, 27WH Kettering General Hospital Urgent 3 SEPTEMBER 2019 Kettering General Hospital Urgent 28WH Care Hub Care Hub [Mr Hollobone] The head of children’s safeguarding at the hospital, Tabby Tantawi-Basra, said: so that patients can get a local urgent care service that “Children have to wait in corridors alongside seriously unwell, meets all government guidance on good practice, ensuring drunk or mentally unwell adults. This causes a serious safeguarding that they get the care they need to keep them safely concern as our staff are not always able to have line of sight outside of hospital and that they are cared for by the on them.” right clinician at the right time, first time. Sarah Parry, who is a nurse in end-of-life care at the The urgent care hub would be a central cog in a hospital, said: whole-system approach to delivering urgent care services “When a patient is brought into A&E dying or already passed to meet the needs of the population, and it would work away, there is no space where relatives can sit quietly to receive the alongside GP, mental health, community and social news and grieve. We can’t even make them a cup of tea—they care services. The hub continues to be identified have to share a facility with the staff room!” as the highest clinical safety priority across the whole of Jacquie Barker, the head of adult safeguarding, said: the county by Northamptonshire sustainability and “We know from the Winterbourne View scandal that the lack transformation partnership. It was also approved by the of privacy and dignity for vulnerable adults seriously impacts NHS Improvement midlands and east regional team as their mental wellbeing. Sadly our facilities mean even our most the highest priority submission for central capital funding. vulnerable adults are looked after in very cramped conditions, sometimes next to disruptive or aggressive other adult patients.” We are talking about £49 million and about Claire Beattie, the head of nursing medicine at the Northamptonshire being the only one of all 44 STP areas hospital, said: in the country not to receive any capital funding at all in the past four waves of such funding from the Department. “Our staff work tirelessly to keep patients safe under the most difficult of conditions. The way the treatment areas are configured Why is that the case? If the Minister were to agree to means they struggle to easily communicate or ask for help, and if the urgent hub proposal, he would put that wrong patients are deteriorating then it isn’t always easy to see that right. The trust can access only £3.5 million annual quickly and give the urgent help they need.” capital through its own funding, and the county, Leanne Hackshall, the director of nursing, said: Northamptonshire, has only £20 million, but that is “Patients are so close together they can almost hold hands. used simply to maintain essential equipment and to And if someone is being sick or coughing badly in the next space repair heating and lighting systems. Kettering General then every other patient worries about who they are so close to.” Hospital therefore requires central funding or some Polly Grimmett, the director of strategy, said: form of private financing to build the facility. “As Director on call in August, we had over 100 patients in the A bid has been submitted as the highest clinical department for most of the night and it’s only safely meant to priority for funding across the whole of the NHS in fit 40—there were 10 ambulances with patients queuing. This is Northamptonshire, and for NHS Improvement regionally, meant to be our quietest month so who knows how bad it will be but Government capital allocation announcements over in December!” the past few weeks have not included the urgent care Nicola Briggs, the director of finance, said: hub, nor any other moneys for Northampton or our “If we stopped spending any money at all on necessary things local region. I simply do not understand why Kettering like replacing light bulbs or fixing equipment, then it would still General Hospital has been missed off the list. The take us nearly 15 years to save up enough money ourselves.” national NHS Improvement team has indicated that no The urgent care hub is, as far I am concerned, the further STP capital funding will be announced until No. 1 priority for local people in Kettering. The general spring 2020, although I understand that the Government hospital is much loved, and we need more investment to are now reviewing all spending allocations across all cope with the growth in the local population and to care Departments in the comprehensive spending review for our increasingly aged population. I invite the Minister expected later this week. Local people will be very to visit the hospital and to see the A&E department for surprised if Kettering General Hospital is not included himself. If he does so, he will follow in the footsteps of somewhere in that review. two previous Ministers with responsibility for hospitals Given the clear patient safety concerns at Kettering and the previous Secretary of State. that have been recognised locally,regionally and nationally The problems are well known in the Department of by NHS experts, what process did the Government Health, and I simply do not understand why £49 million— follow to award schemes the central NHS capital allocations not very much in the context of the size of the whole in recent weeks? Why was Kettering not included? Why NHS budget—cannot be allocated to fund the badly were some awards made to areas with no apparent clear needed urgent care hub at Kettering General Hospital. and worked-up business case, when Kettering has such All the local NHS bodies agrees that the hub is the answer a case? Given the lack of access to further NHS capital to the difficulties and challenges faced by the hospital. funding, what are the alternatives for Kettering General More patients are being treated at Kettering General Hospital without a central grant of funding from Hospital than ever before. Their treatment is increasingly the Department of Health? Furthermore, how are the world-class,and I thank all the dedicated NHS professionals Government correlating healthcare decisions with the in our local hospital for their magnificent work. In locations of planned growth in housing? order to help them face the challenges ahead, we urgently I do my humble best as the local elected representative require £49 million from the Government for this badly to express such concerns. The chief executive of the needed urgent care hub facility. hospital, Simon Weldon, would have made a far better job in this debate than me, but I will quote some of the 1.16 pm dedicated healthcare professionals in our local hospital. The Minister for Health (Chris Skidmore): It is an They will outline the challenges that they face far better honour to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Bone, in than anyone else. my first debate as the new Minister of State for health. 29WH Kettering General Hospital Urgent 3 SEPTEMBER 2019 Kettering General Hospital Urgent 30WH Care Hub Care Hub I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Kettering As well as the top-scoring schemes, a number of (Mr Hollobone) on securing this debate on the proposed schemes of critical service importance have been included, urgent care hub at Kettering General Hospital. This is such as mental health and learning disability schemes, an important issue for not only my hon. Friend but his drawing on the advice from sustainability and constituents in the wider Kettering community, and it is transformation partnerships and national and regional one on which he campaigns tirelessly. I congratulate NHS leadership. Together, the schemes demonstrate him on his diligence and determination to continue that they will deliver clear improvements to services. that, bringing it before the House today. That may not be the answer that my hon. Friend wants Kettering General Hospital, as my hon. Friend to hear, but let me reassure him that I am happy for mentioned, has stood on the same site for nearly 122 years. NHS England and NHS Improvement to discuss how It plays a vital role in the community, and he set out the process and the scoring of requirements operate in eloquently the importance of the hospital to that greater detail with the chief executive, Simon Welden, community.In January this year, my predecessor, my hon. who is sitting in the Public Gallery. If the trust would Friend the Member for Wimbledon (Stephen Hammond), like to have that meeting, I will happily help to arrange discussed the urgent care hub proposal with my hon. that feedback for the hospital and my hon. Friend. Friend the Member for Kettering and visited the hospital, On future capital funding, an extra £1.8 billion was following the foundation trust’s unsuccessful £45.7 million announced in August. That money, to enable investments sustainability and transformation partnership bid in in critical infrastructure, was not previously available, July 2018. My hon. Friend set out clearly the need to and gives new spending power to the NHS to fund new cope with rising demand, with which the urgent care projects. The £1.8 billion is a brand-new capital injection hub could assist. on top of money announced in previous Budgets and Given the unsuccessful bid, I am sure that my hon. spending reviews. The Department’s capital spending Friend is aware that the sustainability and transformation limit has increased accordingly: following the announcement partnership programme has been the main funding on 5 August, the capital spend on health for 2019-20 route for strategic capital development projects. Under has gone up from £5.92 billion to £7.02 billion. It is that programme, capital has been allocated to more important to make that clear, given some wish to look than 170 STP schemes since July 2017, which now for bad news in any good news announcement. It is amounts to about £3.3 billion. STP investments will important to recognise that the £1 billion boost, and the modernise and transform NHS buildings and services £100 million of the £850 million allocated this year, will across the country, including new urgent care centres, be spent on that capital allocation. integrated care hubs that bring together primary and community services, and investment in new mental health Mr Hollobone: I join the Minister in welcoming the facilities. £1.8 billion of extra capital funding for the NHS and On 5 August this year, the Government announced a the £1 billion wave of funding at the end of 2018. That £1.8 billion increase in NHS capital spending, on top of is all very good news, but given there is almost £3 billion the additional £3.9 billion announced in the 2017 spring of extra capital injection, we simply cannot understand and autumn budgets. Of the increase in NHS capital why £49 million of that could not find its way to spending, £1 billion will allow existing upgrade programmes Kettering, particularly as there is already a worked-up to proceed, to tackle the most urgent infrastructure business case, to get the project up and running quickly. projects. Some £850 million will allow 20 new hospital upgrades to start as soon as possible. Those hospitals Chris Skidmore: As a new Health Minister, I have were chosen because they applied for funding in tranche 4 found that the wave approach to the sustainability and of the sustainability and transformation partnerships, transformation partnerships programme has highlighted but narrowly missed out. I will set out the short process a wider issue with NHS capital. My hon. Friend’s point that we go through to designate the waves, whereby the about geographical distribution applies not just to bricks 20 hospitals that narrowly missed out on upgrades and mortar but to diagnostic equipment. We must make previously will receive funding this time. sure that our national health service is truly national, by giving every trust equal opportunities to apply for and Mr Hollobone: Kettering General Hospital narrowly receive funding. That is why the Secretary of State missed out on previous funding allocations. recently set out that, as a Government, we will establish Northamptonshire is the only one of the 44 STPs in the a new health infrastructure plan. The plan will mean country never to have received any capital funding in that we take a strategic approach when looking at the four waves that have taken place. I find that staggering, hospitals that need upgrades, and how that will fit into given the overwhelming support from the local NHS for a wider strategy that will be organised in the Department, the urgent care hub proposals. taking into account local needs and NHS clinical requirements. Chris Skidmore: NHS Improvement and NHS England We will put in place a long-term strategy to upgrade follow an independent assessment process. Previous and improve our NHS. That will deliver a major strategic waves, and the allocation of the 20 hospital upgrades hospital rebuilding programme that will provide the that were announced last month, were assessed on the necessary health infrastructure across the country. I following six criteria: deliverability; patient benefit and cannot go into any further detail, apart from to say that demand management; service need and transformation; the shape of that will be confirmed in due course. To financial sustainability that delivers savings to both the offer a comparison, the road investment strategy—RIS 1 organisation and the sustainability and transformation and RIS 2—has a longer term process by which we can partnership; value for money, including return on move away from a succession of waves. We have waves investment; and estates. 1, 2, 3 and 4 of funding as part of the STP processes: 31WH Kettering General Hospital Urgent 3 SEPTEMBER 2019 32WH Care Hub [Chris Skidmore] School Funding: East Anglia some of those projects are further along and more developed than others; some have more advanced business [MIKE GAPES in the Chair] cases than others, as my hon. Friend mentioned. It is important to take a strategic approach for the future. 4.30 pm I understand that my hon. Friend was disappointed (Norwich South) (Lab): I beg to move, that Kettering General Hospital was not selected for That this House has considered school funding in East Anglia. funding this time. However, as he mentioned, the trust It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, secured £6 million in emergency capital funding this Mr Gapes. We are here to talk a little about why the year, to deal with safety-related estates work. In addition, £14 billion package of schools funding promised by the between 2017-18 and 2018-19, the trust received more new Government is too little and too late for schools in than £14 million in capital to fund improvements to the my constituency and across East Anglia. hospital, including £12 million to tackle the urgent capital backlog and other essential capital expenditure. My constituency boasts many very good, often It received £2.4 million for winter pressures and £820,000 outstanding schools run by hard-working headteachers, for electronic prescribing. That does not make up for what teachers and support staff, but school funding has my hon. Friend recognises as an important development fallen by 8% in real terms since 2015. The workforce has and improvement to the estate, but in Kettering the been cut systematically year on year because funding has trust has improved enormously and has made great not been available to replace valuable staff members who strides in recent years. retire or move on. That has resulted in bigger classes, teachers teaching out of specialism, and a fundamental I note that while the Care Quality Commission rated reduction in the quality of the service schools can the hospital as “needs improvement” after its inspection provide to both children and parents. earlier this year, the trust has been taken out of special measures for quality following the CQC report published Nine out of 10 schools have suffered Government in May 2019. I am pleased that, despite the rising demand cuts to per-pupil funding since 2015, and a parliamentary my hon. Friend mentioned, it is still providing patients petition calling for increased funding for schools received with safe and good quality care and is focused on more than 113,000 signatures.In response, the Government embedding a culture of continuous quality improvement. stated simply that they recognised that schools faced I am delighted that Kettering General Hospital is “budgeting challenges” and were participating in a national urgent and emergency care “asking them to do more.” standards pilot, and I await information and learnings That has been taken more literally than any of us could on that this year. have predicted, with schools asking parents to donate hundreds of pounds a year to buy textbooks and equipment Mr Hollobone: I am glad that the Minister highlights and to repair leaking buildings. the huge improvements made at the hospital and the Only last week, a school in my constituency made a superb leadership we now have in place. Will he accept plea to parents and guardians to come in during the an invitation to visit the hospital and see the A&E holidays to prepare the grounds for the school term department at first hand? because it could not afford a caretaker. The headteacher said contractors would usually work over the summer Chris Skidmore: I thank my hon. Friend for that but this year there was no room in the budget to cover invitation; I would be delighted to visit the hospital. I the expense. Thanks to the good will of those already pay tribute to the staff at Kettering General Hospital, hard-working parents, the repairs will be done in time who continue to work hard and who contributed to the and the school will be safe and ready to welcome its hospital’s receiving a good rating for care. I hope we will pupils. However, schools across my constituency and continue discussions during my visit. the whole of East Anglia have had to go cap in hand to I hope that, if my hon. Friend and the trust are parents and carers, begging for help to cover basic willing, I can arrange the meeting to go through the supplies, when they should be focusing their energies on criteria for STP wave 4 in finer detail. I hope that he providing the best possible education. understands that we are looking at setting up a new process by which capital infrastructure projects will be Sir Henry Bellingham (North West Norfolk) (Con): I delivered. The Government have made significant congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing this timely investments in the NHS as part of their long-term plan. and important debate. He and I have been working with We recognise that we need to mirror that investment in Educate Norfolk and Norfolk heads over the past year NHS capital. I thank my hon. Friend for raising this or so. When we asked them what funding increases important issue, and I look forward to working with would make a significant difference, they came up with him. the sorts of figures the Government have just announced. I appreciate there is a long lead-in time, but does he Question put and agreed to. agree that that is at least a welcome start to restoring funding levels? 1.29 am Sitting suspended. Clive Lewis: I thank the hon. Gentleman for being supportive of the debate and for the work he has done with me and local headteachers. That money is welcome, but it is not enough. I will come on to the details of that. I agree that any increase is welcome, but we need to ensure that it is the right increase. 33WH School Funding: East Anglia3 SEPTEMBER 2019 School Funding: East Anglia 34WH

Daniel Zeichner (Cambridge) (Lab): Does my hon. The alleged new money for schools announced this Friend agree—he probably does not—that although week is something of a confession in itself. I happily Norfolk faces a difficult situation, the situation in acknowledge that that money—£14 billion over three Cambridgeshire is even worse? TonyDavies,the headteacher years from 2020—is a significant and welcome change of St Matthew’s Primary School, tells us that the school of direction. Finally, we can stop listening to Ministers will run out of money at the end of this year so it, too, is continually claiming that schools have more funding seeking contributions from parents. How is it that than ever before. The centrepiece of the announcement fantastically successful schools are literally running out was a one-off £2.8 billion cash injection, but I am sorry of money? to say that that does not even come close to reversing the cuts made by the Conservatives over the course of Clive Lewis: I thank my hon. Friend for his input. We this decade. The Institute for Fiscal Studies believes have to accept that our schools are running out of that to do that, £3.8 billion would need to be shared out money for the same reason that our public services are among schools across the country every year. underfunded: because of a damaging political choice. I This is where things seem to get even more controversial. will come on to that, but let me add that one of the Sadly, following the analysis in this reasons I sought the debate was that, as I understood it, weekend, I am forced to question whether any schools every school in Norfolk was potentially going to put in in my constituency will receive any increase in funding a cost-overrun budget—an illegal budget—because of at all. The supposed cash boost is nothing more than an the funding shortfall. That is happening across the election bribe, with the overwhelming majority to be eastern region, and definitely across Norfolk. spent on grammar schools and schools in Conservative Only last week, a local trust in Norfolk announced MPs’ constituencies, helping the party target marginal that it had had to cut 35% of its teaching assistants. seats as we build up to an almost inevitable general election That means the ratio of children to staff is bigger, in the coming weeks, months or perhaps even days. creating myriad potential risks and increasing exponentially Do the Government really believe that this is how our the lost learning time for children who need extra help children’s future should be decided? Is this really the best in the classroom. way to educate the next generation and close the gap Sandy Martin (Ipswich) (Lab): Does my hon. Friend between rich and poor? From where I am standing, it agree that one of the biggest problems we have with simply plays into the same old Conservative rhetoric that underfunding in education, certainly in Suffolk, is that sees inequality increase year on year. This is not sorting there are not enough facilities and not enough staff to out our schools crisis; it is neutralising an electoral image cope with children with special educational needs, especially problem. It is retrofitting policy to suit the polling objectives. attention deficit hyperactivity disorder? Some children Most of all, it is feigning concern while failing children. receive no more than one hour’s education a day and Over this decade of cuts, our classrooms have been are losing all their self-respect. Weare storing up problems turned into the new frontline of the welfare state, with for the future in those cases. staff filling in for councils in financial collapse and for parents in precarious jobs or inadequate housing. Any Clive Lewis: I will address that in detail shortly, but serious attempt to fix our schools must be combined there is indeed a crisis in special educational needs with money to rebuild our public services and our teaching. welfare state. I am afraid that the new Government do Every parent and teacher knows how vital teaching not seem interested in that. assistants are to aiding our young people’s learning, yet To put the situation in perspective, a headteacher a briefing meant only for Ministers and officials at the from my constituency recently told me that on top of Department for Education, which was leaked last week, the inescapable loss of teaching staff due to budget was clear that the Government still intend to slash the cuts, the school has had to cut back on support for number of teaching assistants. The briefing stated: students, reducing or removing core support in the form “We recommend we continue to push No 10 not to include this of counselling, behaviour support and mental health publicly.” support. That, alongside the significant cuts to external Can the Minister tell us whether that is true? If it is, why support services such as child and adolescent mental do the Government not recognise the value of support health services, social services and special school support, staff in helping our children to learn and thrive? has been disastrous for many vulnerable students in my constituency who have nowhere to turn for help. That, Headteachers across the country have not been able somewhat inevitably, has resulted in an increase in the to balance the books. It is no wonder they have had to number of permanent exclusions that schools have had make cuts: the Institute for Fiscal Studies found that if to make, a pattern sadly replicated across the UK, it were not for the sudden promise of new funding, leaving both students and parents desperate and with school funding would have been £1.7 billion lower in nowhere to turn. real terms in 2020 than in 2015. The newly promised figure is not additional funding; it is to plug a hole that Consider also the renewed focus of the new Government appeared due to the fact that total school spending per on headteachers being encouraged to use “reasonable pupil fell by 8% in real terms in 2017-18. Even if force”on misbehaving students.Education officials caution headteachers trust the Government’smotives, that funding that such a policy will will go only a small way towards repairing the damage “impact disproportionately on children in need of a social worker, caused by years of continued cuts. In the face of such children with special needs and...Black Caribbean Boys”. damning statistics, will the Government concede that In other words, as summarised by , the past nine years of austerity—a political choice by “it will be state-led discrimination against minority groups. Ensuring consecutive Conservative Governments—have crippled that more kids are excluded will simply feed them into pupil our schools? referral units or lead to them getting schooled by gangs.” 35WH School Funding: East Anglia3 SEPTEMBER 2019 School Funding: East Anglia 36WH

[Clive Lewis] Last year, I met headteachers at the Educate Norfolk annual conference, and some of the statistics they gave So much so that police and crime commissioners worry me were staggering. Eighty-two of our schools have about rates of exclusion driving knife crime even higher. reported that they have cut their support staff budgets I would say, “Don’t worry—the Home Office has a plan: and 39 had to reduce SEN support for no reason other anti-knife crime advertising on fried chicken boxes,” but than funding. In real terms, that means teachers having we will not go into that. Is this really the big society that to administer medicines to children with medical needs the Government want to create? Does the Minister really and perform other tasks usually carried out by support believe that these devastating cuts and archaic forms of staff. Can the Minister answer how those same staff can punishment will impact positively on our children? also adequately support children with special educational The Prime Minister recently stated that there should needs? be no winners or losers when it comes to our children’s It is not just about provision for SEN. Overall, changes futures, but I find it hard to see how the decimation of to the benefit system have resulted in a reduction in the state school funding and the services it pays for helps to number of households eligible for free school meals. level the playing field between students educated in our That, in turn, reduces the amount of pupil premium state schools and those who can afford to be educated at funding that a school receives. Increases in staffing costs elite private schools such as Eton and Harrow. fromincreasednationalinsuranceandpensioncontributions I turn to an issue of huge local importance. The and pay increases, which are not fully funded by central funding crisis in East Anglia has had huge knock-on Government beyond 2020, come out of school budgets. implications for our children with special educational That will get worse, with staff having to work longer needs. In Norfolk alone, there are 21,000 children with and retire later. special educational needs and disabilities. Of those, This is completely unsustainable. We need a better 15,000 children with SEND are in mainstream schools strategy, based on inclusivity—not a theoretical idea of and only 6,000 have an education health and care plan. inclusivity—that ensures that there is more SEND training Only 1,000 referrals for EHCPs are received by Norfolk for teachers and non-teaching staff, so that staff, children County Council each year, and 150 children with SEND and parents are properly supported. Labour pledges to are still waiting for a special school place. Nationally, deliver a strategy for children with special educational that figure is 8,500, and only 3% of children in England needs and disabilities, putting more money into those have SEND statements or EHCPs. services while working more strategically with schools I recently met a group of parents who have been and SEND providers. We want to introduce a fairer severely affected by the lack of provision for their funding formula that leaves no school worse off. children. I have constituents whose children, despite The years that children spend at school should not having EHCPs that clearly state that they cannot cope just be time that they must get through. They should be with mainstream schools, still cannot be provided with a wonderful time of learning. We know so much more places in specialised schools. Staff cuts in mainstream about the psychology of childhood and what makes schools have had a significant impact on all pupils but children thrive in education. That must apply to all particularly those with SEND. The cuts have seen a children so that they can leave full-time education with reduction in specialist teaching assistants, counsellors a real chance in life, not a chance restricted by Government and speech and language therapists, all of whom pupils cuts. Joint general-secretary of the National Education with special educational needs and disabilities rely on Union, Mary Bousted, said: for their needs to be properly met. “Teachers know that their working lives would be more fulfilling I also know of children who have been forced to stay and less conflicted if fewer of the children and young people they at home due to lack of staff and spaces in specialised teach were not themselves suffering from the devastating effects settings, meaning that they are effectively excluded through of increasing child poverty caused by…deliberate policies.” no fault of their own. There is nowhere else they can go, In 2015, I campaigned against the academisation of and the impact on their families is catastrophic: parents some of our Norfolk schools, which is yet another example have to give up work and livelihoods are lost. Sometimes, of the mismanagement and greed of the Government, even homes are lost and marriages fail. with reports of headteachers and executives being paid Specialised schools provide invaluable support and five-figure sums. Money is floating to the top, with education that these children are legally entitled to, but, schools left in deficit, and spending on buildings and without sufficient money from central Government—I learning resources is being cut. Similarly, free schools, assure the Minister that the £700 million announced for aimed at the middle classes, and which the Government SEND children is not sufficient—they cannot get that, want more of, are diverting money from existing state and there is nothing that parents or teachers can do. schools and are being run like private companies. More parents are taking Norfolk County Council to tribunal over SEND provisions, and winning, because they are right: their children are not getting the education Mr Richard Bacon (South Norfolk) (Con): I think the they have a right to as set out in legislation. Does the hon. Gentleman misspoke—at least, I hope he did. Will Minister accept that unless there is a significant increase he confirm that since £10,000 is a five-figure sum, he in high-needs funding, the Government will fail to meant to say “six-figure sums”? deliver on the reforms they introduced in the Children and Families Act 2014? These devastating cuts have, to Clive Lewis: Yes. As ever, the hon. Gentleman has quote my hon. Friend the Member for Ashton-under-Lyne spotted a small mistake, and I am glad that he rectified (Angela Rayner), brought services for children with it. Maths was never my strong point; I have always been special educational needs and disabilities to a “dangerous a history man myself. I now see what he was sniggering tipping point”. about earlier—[Laughter.] 37WH School Funding: East Anglia3 SEPTEMBER 2019 School Funding: East Anglia 38WH

Mr Bacon: And he didn’t mention it! Mike Gapes (in the Chair): Before the hon. Gentleman goes further, I should have said that the question is that Clive Lewis: Heads will roll back in my office. this House has considered school funding in East Anglia.

Sir Henry Bellingham: Does the hon. Gentleman Sir Henry Bellingham: Thank you, Mr Gapes. I made agree that there is also a problem in Norfolk with some exactly the same mistake when I was chairing in here schools that went into major building programmes under the other day, so I have every sympathy. PPI? We heard at one school that we visited in Taverham Once again, I congratulate the hon. Member for that after 6.30 pm the school does not belong to the Norwich South. He and I have worked closely on this teachers and that they cannot have outside events there agenda. We may differ in our outlook on various matters because it is in the hands of PPI managers. concerning education, but we have a shared sense of complete and utter respect for the teaching profession Clive Lewis: I might get my figures wrong, but I get in Norfolk, and for the hard-working headteachers and my acronyms right. I think we are talking about the teachers in schools across the county; they have an private finance initiative. I was with the hon. Gentleman incredibly important task. at a fantastic school in Taverham where the PFI contract stated that its vast resources, including the gym and the This debate is timely because, as the hon. Gentleman swimming pool, could not be used by the local community. pointed out, we have had an ongoing dialogue with Once the school gates were locked, that fantastic resource Educate Norfolk, which is a group of secondary and could not be used by the rest of the community. Given primary headteachers. Those meetings have been excellent that taxpayers’ money from that community is paying and have given MPs first-class briefings on most aspects for that school, that is a complete outrage and I agree of schooling in Norfolk. As my colleagues from Norfolk with the hon. Gentleman. and elsewhere in East Anglia will know, one of Educate Norfolk’s consistent demands was for more funding—not In 2017, my hon. Friend the Member for Crewe and just in penny packets, but as a significant uplift in Nantwich (Laura Smith) won her seat as a result of a school funding. campaign based on school funding, not Brexit. That I slightly disagree with the hon. Member for Norwich was the issue her constituents were up in arms about South on this point. We have a new Prime Minister who because it was their children, jobs and livelihoods at has a new agenda and has his priorities, and he has stake. The Prime Minster is in trouble on schools, and made it clear that school funding is one of those priorities. he knows it. When, last week, the Government announced that they would be providing £14 billion in one-off Mr Bacon: I join my hon. Friend in congratulating funding between now and 2022, headteachers responded my parliamentary neighbour, the hon. Member for by saying it was not enough. As I said earlier, we will Norwich South (Clive Lewis). Would he agree with me continue to need an extra £3.8 billion every year to keep that to say that the new Prime Minister is in trouble on our schools afloat and £12.6 billion to reverse the schools is an exaggeration at the very least, if not a effects of austerity altogether, not a one-off pre-election distorted caricature? With other Norfolk MP colleagues, bribe. I have attended meetings with the excellent headteachers The National Education Union says that headteachers at Educate Norfolk. They were making a careful and are unlikely to balanced case for more funding, which was well explained. “trust the motives, or the professed support, of ministers who The Government have responded by giving the education have, time after time, voted through measures that have made budget more or less what they asked for. families poorer. Teachers deal every day with the effects of increased child poverty in children’s inattention and distress and Sir Henry Bellingham: There is a lot of truth in what know that it is these causes that need to be addressed if pupils are to behave better and achieve more in schools.” my hon. Friend says: Educate Norfolk asked for a significant real-terms increase. I made a note at the time The Government need to stop their panicky pre-election that one of the figures they pointed out was that the promises to increase school finances and give schools schools budget in 2017-18—that is two financial years the funding they need, when they need it, not because ago—was £41 billion. They felt that over the next four there is a general election looming. A whole generation financial years it should go up by at least £10 billion. As of young people have already been failed because of we know, under the announcement made a few days cuts to education funding, and simply announcing a ago, the increase will be £2.6 billion next financial year, specialist academy trust in the north of England does £4.8 billion the following year and £7.1 billion in 2022-23. not count as trialling a new approach. We have already That brings the schools budget up to £52.2 billion in been there and done that; it did not work. 2022-23; the Minister may correct me on this, but I Here is a suggestion: rather than prorogue Parliament think I am right. That is not just some increase in the to get a no-deal Brexit through, let us ensure that that future; it is an increase next year and the following year. does not happen, save the £2.1 billion it is said that we It is extremely significant given the context that we still will spend in the event of a no-deal Brexit and spend have a budget deficit and a national debt, which will that on education. We can put that hard-earned taxpayer carry on going up in actual if not real terms. money towards keeping our schools open and our school buildings safe and maintained, and giving our children Heidi Allen (South Cambridgeshire) (Ind): We all the education and the childhood that they deserve. agree that any money is welcome, but it is not right to say that our schools can wait for one, two or three years. 4.52 pm There is a school in south Cambridgeshire—admittedly Sir Henry Bellingham (North West Norfolk) (Con): I not in my constituency, but that of the hon. and learned congratulate the hon. Member for Norwich South Member for South East Cambridgeshire (Lucy Frazer)— (Clive Lewis) again on securing the debate. that now has to close on one day a week; it cannot open 39WH School Funding: East Anglia3 SEPTEMBER 2019 School Funding: East Anglia 40WH

[Heidi Allen] clear and upbeat about this, and very passionate as well, because this funding will enable him to move forward in its doors every day any more. Accepting that money will some of the key areas of priority within his portfolio. not flow so freely—particularly if we have a no-deal Brexit; we all know we will be short of cash then—is it Sandy Martin: Does the hon. Gentleman not accept appropriate for the Minister to look at an interim that the majority—more than half—of the promised solution? For example, did the hon. Gentleman know money will be paid after the next general election, even that schools across the UK are sitting on surplus reserves if the next general election takes place at the latest of £1.7 billion? To balance the deficit between schools possible time, and so this is a promise of money that the that are underfunded, in counties such as mine, and current Government have no way of controlling? where they should be, we need £223 million; that figure Sir Henry Bellingham: I will just say to the hon. is more than covered. Would the hon. Gentleman accept Gentleman that, yes, it is not all coming in one go, but that perhaps that is an interim solution, while we are there will be a £2.6 billion increase next year in 2020-21 waiting for the money to flow through? and, if this Parliament goes its full five years, in 2021-22 it will be £4.8 billion and then up to £7.1 billion. Sir Henry Bellingham: The devil will be in the detail, This is new, real money, now. It is incredibly important but it is incredibly important to get the money flowing that we recognise that point. We can argue that it will quickly.The Minister can look at that, but, as I understand not be enough, but I have also heard hon. Members it, this is new money coming into the Department. It talking about social care, the health service, the A47 and will mean that every school will get a real-terms funding other priorities. It is a question of balancing priorities, rise next year, and hopefully that will have a significant and I am pleased that this Prime Minister has recognised impact on our schools. Secondary schools will receive that schooling and our young children are a key priority. an increased minimum of £5,000 per pupil and primary schools will get the minimum of £3,750, going up to Heidi Allen: I suppose the question I have is: what on £4,000 per pupil in 2021-22. There will also be an extra earth are my schools supposed to do now? Compared £700 million for special educational needs and disabilities. with, for example, a Westminster school, we get roughly It is significant and I welcome it. £1,600 less per head per year, £400 less than the average I also welcome the announcement made by both the across the UK. What on earth are we supposed to Education Secretary and the Chancellor regarding teachers’ do now? pensions. As the hon. Member for Norwich South pointed out, having high morale in the profession is Sir Henry Bellingham: What I would say to the hon. crucial in terms of retention, managing mental health, Lady is very simple: the fairer funding for schools the welfare of teachers and making sure we get the formula did indeed discriminate against a lot of small absolute best out of all our pupils. schools. I will come on to that in a moment, because what we need to know is whether the small schools in my I welcome the announcement on pensions and the constituency, in her constituency and in the constituencies pledge to meet the £4.5 billion requirement from outside of my right hon. and hon. Friends will see significant the education budget; maybe the Minister can clarify benefits. I would suggest, on the figures being put out that. I look forward to hearing what he says about this, by the Department, that that definitely will be the case. as my understanding is that it will not impact on the It is exactly what different teaching groups have been extra money for schools. The employer contribution of asking for. 23.6% will be on top of the salary, which will ensure that the scheme is fully funded. One can link that to I would also like the Minister to comment on one teachers’ pay, which again is crucial to morale and announcement that he made, which is relevant to the retention. small schools that the hon. Lady has mentioned: the £700 million extra for special educational needs and I agree with a lot of what the hon. Member for disabilities, the so-called SEND pupils. There is a shortage Norwich South said, but I hope that many of his of special educational needs co-ordinators in Norfolk concerns and the examples he gave will soon be historical, and a significant lead-in time to get more in place. How because they will be overtaken by the new funding that quickly does the Minister think this extra money will be will become available. It is important that teachers are available? What impact will it make, and when will it well rewarded. A starting salary of £30,000 by 2022-23 make that impact? will help to make teaching salaries among the most competitive in the graduate labour market. I also ask the Minister another question about small schools, because we have in Norfolk—as I am sure we I have a specific question for the Minister: in July, he also do in Suffolk, Cambridgeshire and other counties announced that teachers would have a 2.75% pay increase, in the country—the sparsity factor, which is designed to but that his Department would only fund it to the tune assist very small rural schools in areas that are sparsely of 0.75%. The understanding was that schools would populated. In my constituency, I have a number of have to pick up the rest. Can he clarify the situation? federations of small schools, which have been a great Obviously, we do not want school budgets to have to in innovation, because they can leverage their success and any way subsidise the increase in teachers’ pay. I very capabilities in different areas and put extra resources much hope that the announcement made last week will into individual schools when they need it. Working cover that key point. together in a federation is often a really good way of As I mentioned, the devil will mostly be in the detail. going forward, rather than closing a small school. However, How quickly will the funding reach the schools? I am we have a situation in which some small schools in a optimistic, on the basis of what the Minister has said in federation get the sparsity factor money, but schools his interviews; I congratulate him on his performances nearby, in next-door villages, do not. I have never yet in the media over the past week or so. He has been very heard a satisfactory explanation of why. 41WH School Funding: East Anglia3 SEPTEMBER 2019 School Funding: East Anglia 42WH

Dr (Central Suffolk and North Ipswich) addressing some of the issues that I have flagged up, is (Con): My hon. Friend makes some good points on the got right—can make a fundamental difference, both to challenges faced by smaller rural schools, particularly the schools across our constituencies and, above all, to on special educational needs. I am sure that we all the future of those children in the schools. welcome the extra £700 million being put into special educational needs funding nationally, but it is important 5.8 pm that that money gets to the frontline and to pupils. Does he agree that it is important that there is a mechanism in (Waveney) (Con): It is a pleasure to place to ensure that county councils such as Suffolk give serve under your chairmanship, Mr Gapes. I congratulate that money rapidly to schools that need it, and to ensure the hon. Member for Norwich South (Clive Lewis) on that there is no delay in allowing those schools to recruit securing this debate. the extra number of SENCOs that they need to recruit? East Anglian schools have had a raw funding deal for many years. The Government’s announcement last week Sir Henry Bellingham: I agree with my hon. Friend. of an additional £14 billion for schools nationally provides Maybe the Minister can comment on how quickly we an opportunity to put right that unfairness, which so can get those extra SENCOs in place and what extra wrongly penalises pupils in Suffolk, Norfolk and support there will be for their training. Cambridgeshire. It is important that that money is Like the hon. Member for Norwich South, I have spent wisely, in a pinpointed and targeted way, and that come across many schools around my constituency that priority is given to underfunded areas such as East are extremely concerned about the problems and challenges Anglia. To be fair, the Government do recognise the they have faced. Quite a few of the extra financial latter need. challenges have been on the back of Government-imposed Time is short, so from a Waveney and Suffolk perspective costs—for example, the teachers’ pay increase awards in I shall briefly highlight the four issues that I believe 2017 and 2018, which had to be partly funded by need to be addressed. First, the national funding formula schools, the apprenticeship levy imposition and additional needs to be made fairer, simpler and more transparent. human resources, pension and rural bus costs. Hopefully, Suffolk is a member of f40, a group of education many of those costs will now be taken on board by the authorities that receive the lowest per-pupil funding Department and therefore not imposed directly on schools. settlements. At present, the formula does not give enough Can the Minister also confirm that? basic entitlement to schools and allows too much for We hear from dedicated headteachers—I have heard add-ons, resulting in big funding differences between from many in my constituency—who have had to make different local authorities and schools across the country. savings by, for example, increasing class sizes, reducing This problem is exacerbated by the fact that, as local teaching hours, cutting pastoral support, asking parents authorities have faced ever tighter budgets, schools have to contribute to the running costs of their children’s been asked to take on more and more work traditionally school and so on. No teacher should have to face that undertaken by others, including youth work and parental type of challenge. I am confident that this funding, and mental health support, as we have heard. which we should not be churlish about, will really make Secondly, it is also necessary to ensure that pre-school a fundamental difference, so I thank the Minister for early years funding gets through to those organisations that and look forward to his comments. and groups—often from the private and voluntary Finally, I was going to say something about further sectors—that do great work in deprived areas where education colleges, but I think that that is a story and a there are gaps in the provision of primary schools. A subject for another day. I will say something about good example is Little Buddies in Lowestoft, which has mental health in schools, because there is a real issue suffered significant funding cuts at the same time as with both teachers’ and pupils’ mental health. This has incurring additional costs. We have heard about the been a recurring theme in the meetings we have had pension scheme costs, and it is important to welcome with Educate Norfolk. A number of headteachers have the Government’s announcement that the £4.5 billion said to me that even though the Government talk quite required for teachers’ pensions will be met from outside a positive story about helping teachers with mental the Education budget. I urge the Government to work health, not a great deal actually happens. For example, with local education authorities and, through them, there is no Government data on mental health problems with pre-schools such as Little Buddies, to ensure that among teachers, or indeed among pupils. they receive a fair share of the additional funding now being made available. I ask the Minister whether, when he moves forward with the teacher recruitment and retention strategy, Daniel Zeichner: The hon. Gentleman makes an there will be specific measures in that strategy to help important point about early years funding—which is teachers with mental health. As far as pupils are concerned, notoriously complex, it is fair to say. I am not sure does he agree that every single school should have a lead about the pattern in Waveney, but certainly my area has individual who can give mental health support? Can he some fantastic maintained local nursery schools, which tell the House what percentage of schools, both secondary incur additional costs and have been under considerable and primary, have a lead person in place to handle this financial pressure. Does he agree that it would be helpful important matter? if the Minister could confirm that this additional funding I am grateful to the Prime Minister for making this will flow through to those excellent maintained nursery announcement. We should recognise it as not a penny- schools? packet sum, nor a sum that is way out into the blue sky in the distance, but a sum of money that will be available Peter Aldous: The hon. Gentleman’s point is well made. next year, the following year and the year after that, and A lot of the problem is that, although the Government that, if properly spent—and if the framework around it, announced the additional funding for early years two or 43WH School Funding: East Anglia3 SEPTEMBER 2019 School Funding: East Anglia 44WH

[Peter Aldous] colleges is a welcome step in the right direction, but at £200 per student, it falls short of the minimum £760 per three years ago, the money is not getting through to student sought by the Sixth Form Colleges Association several establishments, such as Little Buddies and the in its “Raise the Rate” campaign. Rainbow Day Nursery in the Harbour ward in Lowestoft. As we know, a lot is going on at present, but whatever We had meetings with the then Minister, my right hon. the outcome of Brexit, nothing is more important than Friend the Member for Scarborough and Whitby investment in the next generation. The Government (Mr Goodwill), and the county council, and we had a have recognised this with the extra funding provided. lot of difficulty working out where the problem arose They now need to work with schools, the regional and why the money was not getting through to those education commissioner and the local education authorities schools. The urge for simplicity and transparency in to ensure that this money is spent prudently and properly how this money is spent is very important. on tackling the unfairness that has built up in East The third point, as we have heard from a number of Anglia over many years. Members, is about special educational needs. This is a problem throughout the whole country, but I sense that it is a real problem in Suffolk. The county faces—I will 5.17 pm not call it a perfect storm; that sounds awful—an imperfect Mike Kane (Wythenshawe and Sale East) (Lab): It is storm of factors that create a real problem in SEN a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Gapes. provision in Suffolk. The first is obviously rising demand: Unfortunately, this is not a forum where we can indulge there is a yearly doubling of requests for education, in our usual conversation about football. However, I health and care needs assessments. Secondly, complexity will try to introduce some elements. of need is rising, particularly for children with autism. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Norwich Thirdly, the council receives historically low levels of South (Clive Lewis) on securing this important debate funding for high-needs learners, compared with other on funding. Straight out of the gate, I join him in saying local authorities. that we should all praise teachers and hard-working A lot of the problem is caused by funding for specialist staff, which we sometimes forget to do in our debates. I placements coming from the dedicated schools grant. wish the best of luck to all schools, many of which went As Suffolk is an f40 authority, its overall funding for back to work yesterday or today. He mentioned his love schools is lower,and therefore its funding for higher-needs of history, but not so much his love of mathematics. He learners is also that much lower. said that austerity had been going on for nine years, but I have to pick him up on that. Actually, school budgets Sandy Martin: Will the hon. Gentleman accept a were protected under the coalition Government until fourth point from me: the local authority’s lack of any 2015, so the slashing and burning of budgets that we ability to make coherent plans, because of the undermining have seen has happened in only four years, not nine. of its ability to plan across the entire county? That is why it has had such a huge impact. My hon. Friend also raised the hugely important Peter Aldous: The hon. Gentleman is right. I was issue of off-rolling across our country. We know that coming on to my fourth point, which might broadly this has significantly led to gang violence, county lines coincide with his. An historical issue in Suffolk, probably and, yes, the rise of horrific knife crimes under this for the best part of 20 years, is the low number of Administration’s watch. We know that, in 2016-17, nearly special schools and special unit places in the county 10,000 children were off-rolled by schools in our nation, itself, meaning that Suffolk has to buy more places—both and the Government did not know where those children in the independent sector and out of area—at enormous went on to. That is a disgrace in this day and age. cost. This problem needs to be put right. It has happened I have to say that it is a joy to see the Minister, my over a number of years and, I suspect, over a number of opposite number, in his place. He has survived more different administrations running Suffolk County Council. regime changes, and now a change to a minority regime It will not be put right overnight. To be fair, the council after the events of today, than you could shake a stick recognises the problem, but I sense that it will be with us at. He must be the little-known fourth member and for a few years to come. brother who, along with Barry, Robin and Maurice, The fifth point, as touched on by my hon. Friend the made up the Bee Gees. The Minister’s motto, which he Member for North West Norfolk (Sir Henry Bellingham), sings in the bath every evening, is “Stayin’ alive, stayin’ is about the need to ensure that sixth forms and further alive”. I want to know whether his superhuman power education colleges are properly funded. The 16-to-19 age of being Minister for six years, under so many regimes, group has been overlooked in recent years. In a town comes with tights and a cape, and will he confirm that such as Lowestoft, it is important that funding for this he does wear his pants on the inside of his trousers? group is put on a financially secure and long-term I loved the Augustinian notion that the hon. Member footing. for North West Norfolk (Sir Henry Bellingham) came Colleges and sixth forms provide an important bridge up with about the world as it was and the world as it from the classroom to universities and the workplace. should be, but all we know is the world as it is currently. In a coastal town such as Lowestoft, where there has been Let’s just go around the counties, shall we? I have long-term economic decline, these schools, sixth forms figures for Norwich school cuts between 2015 and 2019. and colleges are the cornerstone on which we can I will be giving my hon. Friend the Member for Norwich rebuild the local economy and give young people the South statistics that he already knows. Tuckswood opportunity to realise their full potential and, in doing Academy? so, to increase social mobility. The additional funding that the Government provided for sixth forms and Clive Lewis: I know Tuckswood Academy, yes. 45WH School Funding: East Anglia3 SEPTEMBER 2019 School Funding: East Anglia 46WH

Mike Kane: It lost £432 per pupil and £282,000 out of for a place in education. Pupils with special educational its budget in that period. Bignold Primary School? needs and disabilities are struggling to get the help that they need, yet last week, in the school spending announcements, Clive Lewis: Yes. the Secretary of State did not even offer to cover half the funding shortfall, and not for another year. But as the Mike Kane: It had a £516 loss per pupil and is hon. Member for North West Norfolk articulately pointed £430,000 down on where it should be. Clover Hill infant out, mental health is severely impacted when young school had a £757 loss per pupil; it is £276,000 out of people cannot get the provision that they need. pocket. But let us go around the Chamber. Let us look at the East Anglia county average—the loss between 2015 Dr Poulter: The shadow Minister makes the basic and 2019. In Norfolk, there was £279 less per pupil. It point that the challenge with special educational needs has lost £66.6 million-worth of spending power in the is actually a challenge in getting the educational support, last four years. Suffolk—let us go there. It had a £178 loss but the reality for many schools in Suffolk and elsewhere per pupil. It has £40.3 million less spending power since in the country is that the slowdown is very often due to 2015. Let us go a little further south, to Essex. It is an inadequacy of child and adolescent mental health £257 down per pupil. In Essex, £134.4 million has been services, or NHS resource, to address the needs that taken out of school budgets since 2015. have been identified. I hope that he will agree with me We can be in no doubt, after all that we have heard that if we are to address the problem, there needs to be again today, about the impact that this Government’s significant investment, which has indeed been promised continued austerity in our schools is having across East by the Government, in CAMHS, to help young people Anglia and the whole country. The new Chancellor of with learning disabilities and mental health problems the Exchequer, the new Secretary of State for Education who have special educational needs. and the long-standing—as I have pointed out—Minister for School Standards have announced over the last few Mike Kane: I suspect that most hon. Members’ days more funding for schools and teachers. Unless or constituency surgeries on a Friday are now full—mine until we see that new money and the magic money tree certainly is, and I hear the same when I talk to colleagues that it is coming from, we can only assume that it is across Greater Manchester—of parents trying to get business as usual for this regime. special educational needs provision for their children. The hon. Member for Central Suffolk and North Ipswich Daniel Zeichner: I hope that my hon. Friend is coming (Dr Poulter) rightly mentions CAMHS, but again the to Cambridgeshire. If he is, I can tell him that the figure promises are of money in the future. This is the unicorn; is £208 per pupil and £45 million overall. this is what will happen. We can only see what this Government have done to education funding since 2015. Mike Kane: Well, I do not have to come to The hon. Member for North West Norfolk also Cambridgeshire anymore. mentioned class sizes, but there are now half a million children in super-size classes. There is an unquestionable Daniel Zeichner: Please do. recruitment crisis in our schools. It is almost a case of one teacher in, one teacher out. And it is not just Mike Kane: I was pleased to be at the Bury-Cambridge because of the money. The Government have promised game last year. What a sad indictment it is that Bury has £30,000. I would like to hear that that will apply to all now left the Football League. I forgot to tell my hon. new teachers’ starting salaries and that there will not be Friend the Member for Norwich South that I am visiting differentiation between subjects. The Government have his beautiful city in just a couple of weeks to see missed their own recruitment targets for six years; every Manchester City play and to spend some time. I can see year on the Minister’s watch, they have missed their the Ipswich Members getting a bit edgy, but we will not targets, and teachers are flooding out of the classroom. go there. We need urgent action to retain the most experienced After sitting at the Cabinet table agreeing to years of teachers and to recruit new staff. But even now, as we real-terms pay cuts for teachers, the Prime Minister and have heard the Education Secretary announce higher the Secretary of State for Education have finally admitted pay, teachers will have to wait years for the promised that austerity has failed our schools. The announcements pay rise, and there is every chance that they will never prove the veracity of what we have heard today. Statistics see the fruits of this Government’s promises. from the Department for Education show that the number On top of that, despite the Work and Pensions Secretary’s of children and young people with special educational claim that no child would lose their free school meal needs or education, health and care plans in England eligibility, the Institute for Fiscal Studies has found that rose by 34,200, an increase of 11% from 2018. The hon. 160,000 children who were eligible under the legacy Member for Waveney (Peter Aldous) spoke articulately system will not be eligible under universal credit. We about SEN provision and how it is currently failing regularly hear stories of teachers buying essential supplies young people in his patch and across the country, yet for their classes. We heard earlier today that schools are research by the National Education Union has found having to shut for a day. Even schools in the Minister’s that special needs provision in England is down by own constituency are threatening a four-day week. The £1.2 billion as a result of shortfalls in funding increases curriculum is narrowing: we see schools cutting subjects from the Government since 2015. such as drama, art and music, restricting our young The Government’s own data shows that, as of people’s horizons. January 2018, 4,050 children and young people with There is a crisis in our schools, and beyond, to which an education, health and care plan, or statement, were this Government are turning a blind eye. In fact, there “awaiting provision”. In other words, they were waiting has been a concerted effort by the Government to fudge 47WH School Funding: East Anglia3 SEPTEMBER 2019 School Funding: East Anglia 48WH

[Mike Kane] and giving all young people the same opportunities to succeed regardless of where they grow up or go to the figures and deflect attention away from the cuts. If school. funding per pupil had been maintained in value since 2015, school funding overall would be £5.1 billion higher We have been able to do this because of our balanced than it is now. That means that 91% of schools are still approach to the public finances and careful stewardship facing, as we speak here today, real-terms cuts. of the economy, which has resulted in the lowest level of unemployment since the mid-1970s and record levels of Hon. Members here today know all too well the people in employment, a state of affairs that would be impact on the ground already. Headteachers tell us wrecked by any Labour-led Government. This funding every day. The Government need to stop their sticking- settlement means that we can continue to build a world-class plaster approach to school finances and give schools education system, helping to continue to raise standards what they need. Although I am pleased to hear the in our schools. Government announce more money for schools, I hope that the Minister has truly removed his head from the The funding package includes a cash increase of sand and begun to hear the voices of schools, teachers £2.6 billion to core schools funding next year, which and parents. I joke that I see more of the Minister than I increases to £4.8 billion and then £7.1 billion in 2021-22 do of my wife—because it is not just East Anglia that is and 2022-23. That is in addition to the £1.5 billion per the subject of Westminster Hall debates. We are here year that we are injecting into the school system to almost weekly or twice a week. We spend hours having cover additional pensions costs for teachers over the to debate what is happening in all our regions—the next three years, ensuring that employer contributions exact same problems that schools up and down our to teachers’ pensions—equivalent to 23% of gross country face. I have lost count of the number of debates salaries—is fully funded. That addresses the concern that there have been. raised by my hon. Friend the Member for North West With the economic uncertainty of Brexit, and especially Norfolk (Sir Henry Bellingham), who asked whether a no-deal Brexit, which the new Prime Minister seems that teacher pension employer contribution would be so keen to pursue, it defies all logic to have a Government fully funded. The answer is yes and it will be in addition who are failing to invest properly in education and to the £14 billion that we have announced. skills—particularly, as the hon. Member for Waveney pointed out, in our coastal towns. Further education is This is a three-year settlement. The hon. Member for vital to their regeneration; it will be the silver bullet for Cambridge (Daniel Zeichner) criticised it for going into regenerating our coastal towns. We are struggling to a period beyond this Parliament, but schools are seeking find the teachers to go and work there. a three-year settlement; most schools with which I discuss school funding have been asking for a three-year I have said this before and will say it again. As a settlement. In total, across the country, core funding for former primary school teacher, I know the difference schools and high needs will rise to £52.2 billion—my that a good teacher makes. With the right support and hon. Friend the Member for North West Norfolk was resources, they can raise a child’sattainment and aspiration. right about that figure—by 2022-23. According to the We go into teaching because we believe in the value of Institute for Fiscal Studies, this funding will reverse the education. Our schools do not want to see one-off, reductions in real-terms per-pupil funding for five to headline-grabbing handouts; our schools need fair funding 16-year-olds since 2015. That should address the concerns now. raised by the hon. Member for Norwich South. Labour’s national education service will change this situation when we come to power. The national education As part of this significant investment, we will also service will create social mobility; it will create ambition deliver on the Prime Minister’s pledge to level up funding, for all. Our national education service will pay teachers providing increases for our lowest funded schools. Every what they deserve. The national education service will secondary school will be allocated at least £5,000 per provide the investment that our schools so desperately pupil next year,and every primary school will be allocated need. at least £3,750 per pupil, putting primary schools firmly on the path to receiving at least £4,000 per pupil in the 5.29 pm following financial year. In East Anglia this means that per-pupil funding for 46% of secondary schools in the The Minister for School Standards (Nick Gibb): It is a region—160 secondary schools—will level up to at least pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Gapes. I the minimum of £5,000 next year. In addition, per-pupil congratulate the hon. Member for Norwich South (Clive funding for 30% of primary schools in the region will Lewis) on securing this debate in the week that many level up to at least the minimum of £3,750 next year—that schools are starting the new academic year and just is 594 primary schools on the path to receiving at least days after the Government announced a giant cash £4,000 per pupil. We are also allocating funding so that boost for schools across all parts of the country. I add every school’s per-pupil funding can rise at least in line my thanks and admiration to all teachers and teaching with inflation and to accelerate gains for areas of the assistants starting the new term this week. country that have been historically underfunded, with As my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State will most areas seeing significant above-inflation gains. set out in a statement to the House just after the statement on preparations for leaving the EU, we have I challenge the hon. Member for Norwich South on committed an extra £14 billion of funding to schools his characterisation of this year’s school funding. Even throughout England over the next three years. That before this major announcement, funding in Norfolk delivers on the Prime Minister’s pledge when entering has increased from £460.3 million in 2017-18, to Downing Street to increase school funding by £4.6 billion £482 million, which is a 4.7% rise and equates to a over and above inflation, levelling up education funding 3% per-pupil rise. 49WH School Funding: East Anglia3 SEPTEMBER 2019 School Funding: East Anglia 50WH

Daniel Zeichner: The Minister has talked about the Nick Gibb: I will look at that point. Ultimately these impact on primary schools and secondary schools. Could are matters for the schools themselves. The schools have he say a little about the impact on maintained nursery an autonomous system, but we want to ensure that they schools? have the funding they need to employ sufficient numbers of sufficiently well-trained SENCOs and teachers who Nick Gibb: The hon. Gentleman will have to wait, are trained in helping children with special educational because we have not made the announcement for early needs. years funding. If he can be patient a little longer, we will be making that announcement. Dr Poulter: Despite all the positive announcements We will continue to distribute this money through the and the extra Government funding that will be passed national funding formula, which is our historic reform on to local authorities to give to schools for special to the schools funding system that continues to ensure educational needs, there is a challenge. As we have that funding is based on the needs and characteristics of raised previously, in many areas there is a lack of schools and pupils, rather than on the accidents of provision in the local NHS, particularly for children history or geography. with moderate to severe special educational needs, and Today we have reaffirmed our intention to move to a lack of CAMHS and learning disability psychiatrists what is called a hard formula, whereby all school budgets and nurses. What conversations will the Minister have are set on the basis of a single national formula, to ensure a renewed focus from the Department of guaranteeing equity among all schools, wherever they Health and Social Care, to ensure the recruitment of are in the country. Moving to this approach will mean these important healthcare professionals, without whose that neighbouring schools that happen to sit on different expertise many young children will not get the extra sides of a local authority boundary will be funded on help they need? the same basis, and it will no longer be the case that different decisions made by different local authorities Nick Gibb: My hon. Friend raises a very important mean that similar schools receive different budgets. We issue. Wetake the issue of mental health very seriously.He intend to move to this hard formula as soon as possible. will also know, given that he is in the medical profession, Of course, we recognise that this will represent a significant that very significant extra funding was announced last change and we will work closely with local authorities, year for the health service, with £20.5 billion more per schools and others to make this transition as smooth as year by 2023—these are huge sums of money—which possible. will help to address many of the issues he has raised. The hon. Member for Norwich South said that he We also take mental health issues seriously in schools. was opposed to academies. He has publicly expressed We have published the Green Paper on the mental what I would regard as unwarranted hostility against health of children and young people, which will put a the Inspiration Trust—a multi-academy trust that is mental health lead in every school. I think that issue doing huge work to raise school standards in his part of was also raised by my hon. Friend the Member for East Anglia. That probably explains why he failed in his North West Norfolk. At the moment, I think—this is speech to congratulate College in his off the top of my head, but I think my memory is constituency, a free school, which this year published its right—that about half of secondary schools have such first GCSE results. Its provisional Progress 8 score places leads. We want every school to have them, supported by it in the top 10% of schools nationally. Some 75% of a mental health support unit. That is part of the Green pupils achieved grades 9 to 4 in maths and English, and Paper’s proposals and it will be very significantly funded 30% of students at that school achieved a grade 8 or 9, as well. We also, of course, want to reduce the waiting which are the top grades that can be achieved in a times for children who need more specialist help with GCSE. I offer huge congratulations to Jane Austen their mental health issues through CAMHS. We have College and all the staff and teachers at that school. given a commitment on reducing those waiting times. My hon. Friends the Members for Waveney (Peter On the issue of 16-to-19 funding, in addition to the Aldous) and for North West Norfolk raised the hugely schools and high needs blocks the investment also includes important issue of special educational needs funding. an additional £400 million to provide better education We are absolutely committed to supporting children in colleges and school sixth forms in 2020-21. This with special educational needs and disabilities to reach means a 7% uplift to overall 16-to-19 funding, in addition their full potential, and we expect all schools to play to funding for staff pensions. We will also protect and their part. That funding increase therefore includes increase the 16-to-19 base rate with funding worth more than £700 million of extra funding to support £190 million, and provide a further £120 million for children with special educational needs and disabilities colleges and school sixth forms so that they can deliver to access the education that is right for them. We those crucial but expensive subjects, such as engineering, recognise that local authorities have pressures on these that are vital for our future economy. This investment budgets for next year, and alongside that additional will help to ensure that we are building the skills that funding we will continue to work with local authorities our country needs as we prepare to leave the European and schools to ensure that this investment is working Union. well for those children in greater need. My hon. Friend the Member for Waveney also raised the important Of course, there are no great schools without great issue of funding for 16 to 19-year-olds. teachers. That is why this settlement offers a pledge to the members of this hard-working profession to put Sir Henry Bellingham: Will the Minister look at the teaching where it belongs—at the top of the graduate point about the long lead-in time in training more labour market. Subject to the School Teachers Review SENCOs? There is obviously a shortage at the moment Body process, this latest investment will make it possible and that could hold things up. to deliver the biggest reform of teacher pay in a generation, 51WH School Funding: East Anglia3 SEPTEMBER 2019 School Funding: East Anglia 52WH

[Nick Gibb] the fairer distribution and levelling up of school funding, and the support to use those resources to the best effect lifting teachers’ starting salaries to at least £30,000 by are proof that that commitment is being delivered on in 2022. I reassure the hon. Member for Wythenshawe and full. Sale East (Mike Kane) that that will apply to all teachers; it will not differ by subject. 5.44 pm My hon. Friend the Member for North West Norfolk raised the issue of sparsity funding. The national funding Clive Lewis: I thank the Minister for his response, formula includes support for small schools, especially in and I thank all those who have contributed to this rural areas, and provides a lump sum of £110,000 for timely and interesting debate. every school as a contribution to the costs that do not On the issue of Jane Austen College and the Inspiration vary with pupil numbers. That gives schools certainty Trust, I have always been supportive of the teachers and that they will attract a fixed amount each year in the pupils in such schools. My issue has never been with addition to the pupil-led funding. Last year, the sparsity them; it has always been with the philosophy behind factor in the formula allocated additional funding of free schools and academies, and sometimes with their £25 million specifically to schools that are both small leadership. We should understand the philosophy of and remote. Last year, therefore, 161 schools in East free schools, which is—to quote a member of the Anglia attracted a combined total of £3.2 million of Department, although I am not sure whether they sparsity funding. expected their words to go public—to bring the chaos With other schools in East Anglia that do not attract of the free market to our public state school education sparsity funding, either because they are not among the system. That has been one of my key concerns about smallest schools nationally or because they are not far free schools and the academy system. enough apart to meet the distance threshold, we have I will make a last couple of points. The question that been clear that we want all schools to operate as efficiently many of us have now is about this new money. It is as possible, and we believe that there is scope for rural welcome, but we ask ourselves, “Will our constituencies schools in close proximity to work together to get the actually see any of this money, or will it be used best value from their resources. However, we of course disproportionately and cynically in key Tory marginals?” keep the formula under review and we are always prepared The answer remains to be seen. to change approaches to how we calculate sparsity. For Labour Members have always claimed that cuts to example, should it be calculated based on as the crow public services have been a political choice. Having flies, or should it be based on the actual distance listened to the Minister today,I think it is quite clear—now travelled between schools? that this money has been found—that the last four years While this additional funding will provide a crucial of cuts to our education system have been a political foundation on which to continue to build an excellent choice. We are glad that the money has been found, but education for every pupil, it will also be vital to make the past four years have been very difficult for schools sure that we get the very best value from every extra and they are still struggling. pound. Therefore, the Department’s support stretches Regarding pupils with special educational needs, we much further than providing additional funding. Our need to understand that £700 million will simply not be announcements sit alongside our efforts to drive greater enough. This is a problem that goes far and wide and efficiency in school spending, and the Department’s deep. It is systemic, and far more than £700 million will school resource management strategy,which was launched be needed if it is to be tackled properly. I think the last year, supports schools to make the most of every Minister understands how severe this problem is, so I pound of their budgets. It includes deals to help schools hope that more money can be found for children with to save money on the things they buy regularly, such as SEN, their families and the support that they and their printers and photocopiers, and the roll-out of a free schools need. teacher vacancy listing website to help schools to find teachers and drive down recruitment costs. Finally, no amount of new funding can ever make up for the lost opportunities—the lost childhoods—of those In conclusion, I thank Members for their contributions pupils who have been failed by successive Conservative to this debate and I am sure that many will want to Governments for these past few years, after billions of know what the recent announcement means for their pounds of cuts have led to underfunding. No new area and the schools in their own constituency. This money can ever make up for that. information will be published early next month, once illustrative school-level allocations and provisional local Question put and agreed to. authority-level allocations through the national funding Resolved, formula are announced. I will end by reaffirming that That this House has considered school funding in East Anglia. this Government are committed to ensuring that all young people get the best possible start in life, and that includes ensuring the right funding for our schools. The 5.47 pm substantial investment that we are making in our schools, Sitting suspended. 53WH 3 SEPTEMBER 2019 Hull’s Maritime City Bid 54WH

Hull’s Maritime City Bid lives in three separate trawler sinkings in the space of less than a month. Those women collected more than 10,000 signatures on a petition calling for reform, led [MR PHILIP HOLLOBONE in the Chair] protest meetings, and even came down to London to lobby politicians. Among the measures the campaign 6 pm secured were safety checks before vessels left port, radio Emma Hardy (Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle) operators for all ships, improved safety equipment, and (Lab): I beg to move, a mother ship with medical facilities for all fleets. That this House has considered Hull’s bid to become a maritime Today, our connection to the sea continues to define city. Hull’s culture and economy.Maritime images dominated It is a genuine pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, the city of culture opening ceremony; The Deep aquarium Mr Hollobone. The Hull: Yorkshire’s Maritime City remains one of our tourist hotspots; and thousands of project is underpinned by three key bodies: Hull City people travel through our port each month to European Council, which works to secure the ongoing prosperity cities such as Amsterdam or Zeebrugge, reflecting the of the city; Hull Culture and Leisure Ltd, which operates European movement of the late 19th century, when the city’s museums; and Hull Maritime Foundation, an trans-migrants made their way through Hull on their independent registered charity that aims to support, way to North America. protect and promote Hull’s maritime heritage through Our future economic prosperity remains tied to our the project. future as a port and the green energy estuary. We are As one of the UK’s busiest ports, Hull has come creating wind turbines with Siemens that will help drive a long way since the second world war, when it was forward the green energy agenda, and are developing referred to only as an “unnamed costal town” despite advances in battery storage to store the energy we being hit harder than any other city outside of London produce. We are not always great at advertising our during the blitz. Our port industry was hit, 95% of our achievements, and it often comes as a surprise when houses were destroyed or damaged, and more than people learn that the Humber is Britain’s busiest trading 1,200 people were killed in air raids on the city.Becoming estuary. Our maritime endeavours continue to this day. the UK city of culture in 2017 put Hull on the map for Knowing our history roots communities and creates all the right reasons, and in 2019 the scale of our a strong sense of identity; it gives people pride and ambition has not diminished. drives community engagement. The city’s proud maritime The UK city of culture 2017 was an inspirational heritage is central to our vision, and the Hull: Yorkshire’s year: one of building confidence, showcasing our city, Maritime City project will restore and re-interpret our changing people’s minds and laying foundations for the maritime treasures so that they can take centre stage future. Following from that success, the Hull: Yorkshire’s and be celebrated by the community. The project is Maritime City project is a heritage-driven, city-wide based around five key elements of our maritime heritage, cultural regeneration and place-making project that will which are Hull Maritime Museum, the dock office continue to catalyse the remarkable transformation and chambers, the North End shipyard, and two ships: the momentum initiated by the UK city of culture 2017. Arctic Corsair, the sole survivor of Hull’s distant-water Sir Greg Knight (East Yorkshire) (Con): Is the hon. sidewinder trawler fleet, and the Spurn Lightship, which Lady aware that if these proposals go ahead, they will played a key role in Hull’s inland trade by guiding also benefit the wider East Riding area? For that reason, vessels as they navigated the Humber estuary. Both she has cross-party support for what she is saying and those ships will receive a full restoration, increased trying to achieve. opening hours, a new interpretation and new displays, while the Arctic Corsair will also play host to a variety Emma Hardy: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for of training events and opportunities. his remarks. He is absolutely right that this project’s The extent of the renovation of the buildings is even benefits will be felt far wider than Hull; they will spill more exciting. The project in the North End shipyard over into east Yorkshire as well. will commemorate how that site once contributed to The project will take Hull to the next level as a Hull’s status as a global maritime port by housing the destination renowned for its maritime heritage and Arctic Corsair in a permanent dry berth, creating an culture. Hull’s rich maritime story will take centre stage, additional attraction near the already successful museum creating a long-term legacy for decades to come. The quarter, and highlighting the Queen’s gardens—formerly city has already surpassed expectations and changed the Queen’s dock—and their significance to the maritime the perceptions of many by presenting as proud, brave, story of Hull. The Maritime Museum will receive an confident, and outward-looking, transformed by investment additional 390 square metres of museum space, new in culture, people and place. public access to one of the building’s domes with superb Our connection with the sea has shaped our landscape rooftop views, improved education and visitor facilities, and our culture; it touches every piece of our identity and new displays that will tell Hull’s maritime story in a and shapes the way we see ourselves. Our fighting spirit, unique and immersive way.That will lead to a 50% increase determination, and desire to resolve injustices has been in the number of items available for public view, and evident through the ages, from William Wilberforce and better conservation of those items so that more of his campaign to abolish the slave trade to the headscarf Hull’s people can benefit from them for longer. revolutionaries and their battle against the powerful However, Hull: Yorkshire’s Maritime City is so much establishment to change fishing safety laws. The story more than a heritage project. By taking a heritage-driven of those women revolutionaries is quite extraordinary: approach to place-making, it will redefine the city for their campaign started after the triple trawler disaster in residents and visitors alike and transform the life chances 1968, when 58 fishermen based in the port lost their of its citizens. Across the city, the project will promote 55WH Hull’s Maritime City Bid3 SEPTEMBER 2019 Hull’s Maritime City Bid 56WH

[Emma Hardy] but as a Back Bencher I always tried to champion it, as she is championing Hull. It is the right thing to do. We ambition and civic pride, and raise aspirations by working learned a great deal about Hull. I have not been there with young people, older people, unemployed people, myself, but she whetted my appetite, because there people with disabilities, and people and communities seems to be so much going on. The plans for the facing isolation. The project will benefit 150,000 people Maritime City are interesting and exciting and I look through informal learning and outreach programmes, forward to seeing them progress. while 10,000 pupils and students will benefit directly Few cities have had the recent dramatic transformation from engagement with our formal learning programme. that Hull has had. The hon. Lady mentioned its history The activities available through the Hull: Yorkshire’s and how devastated it was after the war; it has undergone Maritime City plan will offer people the chance to gain a massive transformation. As she also mentioned, it was practical skills through volunteering that will boost a hugely successful city of culture in 2017, during which their employment opportunities and build confidence time more than 5 million visitors came to the city. That in a variety of employment settings. Skills-building really enhanced the pride of its residents. More than opportunities will include heritage opportunities as well half the city’s businesses reported an increased turnover as transferable, public-facing skills such as oracy,developed because of all the effort that was put into that year. It is through opportunities such as guided tours and event heartening that the city continues to capitalise on that stewarding. By boosting confidence and increasing civic success, so that it was not a one-off year. It has sparked pride, the project will help to build strong, resilient something that will continue, which is very much the communities that are motivated and inspired by their thinking behind the city of culture. We are thinking local heritage, fostering a strong and positive sense of about the next one now, Coventry, which I hope will be place. as successful as Hull. The Hull: Yorkshire’s Maritime City project will also boost our economy. A new economic impact assessment As the hon. Lady said, the Maritime City project will commissioned by Hull City Council to look at the champion Hull’s eight centuries of fishing history, which benefits of the project concluded that it represents a will be encompassed in some of the projects that will positive return on investment and good value for money come forward. I was interested to read about that in high, medium and low-impact scenarios. It will create history, particularly the trawlers. The fishing industry 121 jobs in the local economy through its construction, went as far afield as Iceland and the White sea, which is operation and supply chain, and as a result of visitor something that the city is proud of and that we should spend. The transformational reach and impact of the be proud of as a nation. The two historic ships, which project will far outreach the sum of its parts, fulfilling are both on the national historic ships register, will be its vision of being a truly heritage-driven, city-wide part of the project, as will the world-class maritime cultural and place-making project with people at its museum, which sounds fascinating. core. I am sure that the Minister will agree that it is a The project will maximise the potential of those fantastic way for Hull to utilise its history to provide existing assets to bring visitors to the city, celebrate its opportunity for the future. history and use that history to enhance the future, Today, I ask the Minister to recognise the ambition of which is the essence of place-making. The project will Hull City Council in supporting such a project, and to accomplish several milestones for the city.The investment encourage the Department for Digital, Culture, Media in the Hull Maritime Museum will constitute its first and Sport to work with the council to deliver this major refurbishment in 40 years and will hugely expand ambitious and aspirational project, which embodies it as a centrepiece for the city. The hon. Lady referred to much of the thinking in the 2016 White Paper on the Mendoza report, which highlighted the value of our culture and the 2017 Mendoza review. I also ask her to museums, the benefit they can bring and how much we encourage cultural and tourism institutions sponsored should celebrate them. In Taunton, a great deal of by her Department to freely lend their expertise, and to investment was put into our museum and the number of offer their support and commitment to the project and visitors increased from 30,000 to 120,000 in the first engage with the team in Hull. year, which is phenomenal. Finally, will the Minister ask the Secretary of State The Arctic Corsair trawler is the last vestige of the for Transport to work with the chief executive of Highways trawler industry and a real flagship. It is the last surviving England, Jim O’Sullivan, to explore ways of unlocking sidewinder trawler—I have learned something—and it the Highways England designated funds process at the will receive a fitting final home in its own dry dock in earliest opportunity—to allow consideration of the A63 the North End shipyard, as the hon. Lady highlighted, footbridge Spurn Lightship proposal, which would add which will allow it to remain open and accessible to the so much value to this project? I hope the Minister feels public. The Government are keen to support that and she will be able to work with me to achieve this step in have already provided £50,000 through the coastal revival securing Hull’s future. fund. That pot of money, which came from the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government, already 6.10 pm supports conservation and restoration work on the ship. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Rebecca Pow): It is a delight As hon. Members present are aware, my portfolio for my ministerial debut to happen under your auspices, encompasses not just arts and heritage, but the tourism Mr Hollobone. I thank the hon. Member for Kingston agenda. My right hon. Friend the Member for East upon Hull West and Hessle (Emma Hardy) for bringing Yorkshire (Sir Greg Knight) mentioned the wider benefits such a fascinating subject to the Chamber. As she knows, of the project. Indeed, there will be real benefits across my Somerset constituency is a long way from Hull, the board for the wider area of increasing the offer 57WH Hull’s Maritime City Bid3 SEPTEMBER 2019 Hull’s Maritime City Bid 58WH in Hull. There is real evidence that demonstrating and I am also pleased that the Maritime City project has doing more with the UK’s historic sites can draw in taken note of the need to involve people across the many more tourists. board. It has staged roadshows across the city to showcase the project and foster community buy-in. More than Sir Greg Knight: The Minister does not know what 10,000 residents have already taken part and been reached she is missing. Will she commit to visiting Hull and the as part of the council’s integrated work that has already East Riding in the not-too-distant future? been referred to. Together, the Heritage Fund and the Arts Council have given more than £2 million to Absolutely Rebecca Pow: That is a lovely offer. I love Yorkshire Cultured to build on the legacy of Hull’s UK city of anyway—I think it is very close to Somerset in its culture year, which shows a universal desire for the city feel—and I would very much like to make a trip and not to rest on its laurels. visit all these places, particularly Hull, to see what has What has been achieved in Hull with the help of been gained from being the city of culture and learn the grants from those two organisations really demonstrates lessons for the next city of culture. I am sure my team the importance of national lottery funding for major will take that offer up. UK projects, which is to be particularly celebrated in Tourism in the wider East Yorkshire region contributed this, its 25th anniversary year. Hull could be used as £878 million in 2017 and provided almost 20,000 jobs, something of a model for funding. The Heritage Fund so it is a valuable part of the economy. In the past two has given more than £7 million to projects in Hull in the years, overseas visits to East Yorkshire and Hull have last five years and its £1.4 million development grant for hit new heights; there were 113,000 in 2018. The region’s the Maritime City project has been catalytic in getting it forthcoming tourism strategy will build on that trend, to the current stage. because there are great opportunities. Of course, as a Minister, one cannot second-guess the I am particularly excited that several elements of the outcome of the second round bid the project has put in Maritime City project address the issue of improved to the Heritage Fund. The decision will be taken by the access for disabled visitors. I strongly believe that our north area committee, which I believe has visited the heritage sites and visitor attractions should be accessible site already, or is to do so later this month. However, to everyone. It is a growing sector. As Tourism Minister—I whether or not the application is successful, there is hope it lasts—I am particularly emphasising that in the reason to be confident that the city of Hull will find a tourism sector deal. For the first time, disabled visitors way to bring the ambitious plans in the bid to fruition. will be able to get aboard the Arctic Corsair following The Maritime City project is perfectly placed to its restoration. capitalise on the momentum generated by Hull’s year as It is encouraging that, when the DCMS/Wolfson city of culture and the other factors I have mentioned. Museums and Galleries Improvement Fund expert panel The legacy of that year can be keenly felt throughout decided to award £150,000 to the Hull Maritime Museum the city. There are some truly impressive statistics. To refurbishment, it specifically noticed the emphasis placed name just a couple, in 2018 the city’s employment rate on better access for visitors with disabilities, which was and number of businesses reached their highest ever one of the reasons for its success. The project should be recorded rate, including more than 550 new cultural highly commended for prioritising and integrating the jobs. That is a pretty extraordinary outcome. needs of all Hull’s visitors. I note with interest the opportunities in the project Hull’s potential was recognised by Historic England bid for training and skills, which I was very pleased to in 2017, when it was announced as one of its first see. Those are particular elements in the new tourism heritage action zones. Through advice and financial sector deal, which hopes to build skills and apprenticeships support, that initiative aims to create partnerships that so that our young people feel that there is a future will improve economic growth and the quality of life in working in tourism and such sectors in these areas. The Hull’s old town. Ultimately, it will secure new uses for developments in Hull will surely offer opportunities historic buildings, increase affordable housing and seek that will keep younger people there and stop them from better links with the waterfront to better exploit that thinking they need to go somewhere else to get good maritime heritage. That all chimes well with the Maritime employment. I was pleased to see that as part of the bid. City project. As a result of all the work in Hull, I believe that civic Hull’s upward trajectory has been facilitated and pride is at an all-time high, with three in four residents enhanced by a flood of investment in arts and culture reporting that they are proud to live in Hull—perhaps over the last few years—lots of places would be quite the others will be got on board with all the new projects jealous of how much Hull has achieved. Grants from coming to fruition! Recent VisitEngland findings show the National Lottery Heritage Fund and the Arts Council, that Hull Maritime Museum has had the greatest growth many of which have focused on the importance of among all museums and galleries nationally,with an almost getting communities engaged and involved, have had a 400% increase in visits. That is absolutely phenomenal huge impact. Engaging communities in that way is so and has happened even before the refurbishment of the important in making a success of a place. museum. It is a great demonstration of the role that There has been a raft of events, such as the Freedom museums can hold. Festival, the Big Malarkey Festival—we would not have As has been outlined, the Maritime City project, been allowed, Mr Hollobone, because it was a kids’ which involves five different sites, including the two event, but it was all about books and stories, so I was historic vessels, will attract a further 300,000 visitors to interested to hear about it as I am also the Libraries Hull and potentially bring an additional £2.86 million Minister—and the Creative People and Places project, to the local economy. It will be a huge boon for the city, which have had great success in attracting new audiences continuing its upward trajectory to become a must-visit to become engaged in and inspired by the arts. destination in the UK. 59WH Hull’s Maritime City Bid 3 SEPTEMBER 2019 60WH

[Rebecca Pow] High-income Child Benefit Charge We want UK visitors to go to places such as Hull. We also want to attract international visitors. With our new 6.26 pm airport links, building on, for example, the special deal (South Thanet) (Con): I beg to in Manchester to encourage inbound tourism, or with move, Newcastle Airport, perhaps we can get people to use That this House has considered the high-income child benefit those routes—these are all good selling points for people charge. who are going up north. We want to strengthen that, and tourism, arts, heritage and culture really help. I was It is always a great pleasure to serve under your so pleased to hear there is cross-party support for this chairmanship, Mr Hollobone. project. Things are often successful with cross-party One might ask why I have brought this debate; it is a support as it demonstrates very wide interest—not, of fairly obscure area of tax and benefits. I have done so course, that I can influence the decision. out of the frustration felt by a number of constituents The hon. Lady raised a point about Highways England. who face the high-income child benefit tax charge and I will ascertain what might be holding that particular its after-effects and, as a chartered accountant and aspect up and how it might be moved forward, and chartered tax adviser, anything tax-related always rattles report back. I urge the hon. Lady to continue championing my bell. This is a topic of great interest on mumsnet.com the cause, which helps a great deal; it is always good to and moneysavingexpert.com, which have covered the have a champion. issue in some depth. Hull has a unique place in the UK’s maritime history. I suppose we must start at the beginning—always a We discussed the two ships in Hull—I have knowledge good place to start. Whydid we implement this high-income of the SS Great Britain in Bristol, which has very good child benefit tax charge, when child benefit had been a disabled access; Bristol has an interesting maritime universal benefit, enjoyed by all, for very many years? history as well. The SS Great Britain is a huge tourist The issue was first raised in October 2010 by the then attraction in Bristol, visited by a great many people. It is Chancellor, , and it was one of the a beautiful place to visit, and so I know how attractive measures used to try to get some more savings for the such ships can be to the public, who are intrigued about Treasury after the simply appalling state of the nation’s their history. It makes perfect sense to build on that affairs that we were left with after the 2010 election. heritage for the future. The legislation was first mooted in the 2012 Budget, Should the bid be successful, I am sure that Yorkshire’s and it came into effect on 7 January 2013. That in itself Maritime City, Hull, will continue to grow and develop was a bizarre date to choose, and one might ask why it and maintain its unique position, that more people will was not simply started on 6 April in the next available hear about it, that businesses will benefit, that more tax year, which might have made life a little simpler. I visitors will come and that we will all be reminded of have not found figures for how much the clawback and our glorious seafaring past, which is so much part of the lack of take-up of child benefit have saved the our history in the UK. Treasury, but I estimate it to be somewhere in the region of £2 billion to £3 billion a year—certainly a very useful Question put and agreed to. amount to fill up the hole left by Labour in 2010. The charge applies above an adjusted net income of £50,000. Adjusted net income is not the usual measure of what we anticipate to be our taxable profit or income; it is the gross income from all sources, less gift aid and pension contributions. It does not include personal allowance. In very simple terms, if a pay-as-you-earn employee has a gross income of £50,000 before personal allowance, they would start to feel the effects of the high-income child benefit tax charge. The way it works is that there is a clawback of 1% of child benefit for each £100 of additional income over the £50,000, so by the time someone has an adjusted net income of £60,000, all that child benefit is tapered away. It sounds complicated even trying to lay it out in the simple terms that I have, but one thing that comes out of this is that it is a salutary lesson in how not to withdraw a universal benefit through the tax system. What we have on the statute book, which runs to many tens of pages of tax law, is the truly mad basis of trying to claw back a benefit. It is not related to overall family income, which many people describe as one of the real drawbacks of the system. Let me give an example. Family income is recognised as the measure for most other Department for Work and Pensions benefits. For instance, there is no withdrawal of child benefit for a couple both earning £50,000—the high-income child benefit tax charge does not apply, 61WH High-income Child Benefit Charge3 SEPTEMBER 2019 High-income Child Benefit Charge 62WH even though the family income is a generous £100,000. makes a mistake—often with the elderly. I saw this very In another family, in which only one parent is working regularly when I was one of the volunteers for Tax Help and earning, say, £60,000, and the other is not working, for Older People in Kent. HMRC has had the information there would be a full claw-back of the child benefit and applied the wrong code across different pensions. given. That makes life complicated for people on pay-as- Three years later, an assessment turns up. Extra-statutory you-earn, who can do nothing about their income, and concession A19 makes HMRC give up that tax if it has there is also the issue of fairness. Family businesses, or been in receipt of information but has not used it people in sole trade, perhaps have a greater opportunity properly. for sharing income, splitting income or indeed creating Of the constituents who have been found not to have a partnership to split the income down to the golden done what they should have done—registered to do a £50,000, so that there is no loss of child benefit. self-assessment return, possibly for the first time in their I feel that this situation has led to an inherent unfairness life—they have been, well, not happy, but comfortable in the system, which is one of my concerns. My other enough, even given what ESC A19 says: that they concern is the means of collection, and there lies the should pay the money back. They are quite happy with problem that we have faced. People who recognise that that. However, many of these people have faced a they will not qualify for child benefit can choose simply tax-geared penalty under section 97 of, and schedule 24 to disclaim the benefit and not receive it at all. That has to, the Finance Act 2007. That penalty has generally been on the rise over the years since the charge has been been at the lowest rate of 15% under the careless but in place. In 2013, 397,000 people were not claiming the prompted regime, under HMRC’s fines regime. However, benefit, and the number has now increased to 516,000. they have also faced statutory interest, which is currently That is due to two issues, one of which is fiscal drag—the at 3.75%. Many people understand that, if they have level has not been raised since January 2013, which is been in receipt of child benefit for a few years and something I will raise later. should not have been, they should pay it back, but they Some people are happy and feel that it is to the family feel particularly aggrieved about a 15% penalty and the advantage to maintain their cash flow—get the money statutory interest. into their bank with the monthly receipt of child benefit, I argued with HMRC, for my constituents, that the then simply pay it back at the end of the year. Some suspended penalty regime, under paragraphs 1 and people do that. However, the real madness in the 14 of schedule 24 to the Finance Act 2007, should be system—we should have tax systems that make things the equitable solution. This is a procedure by which easier—is that the implementation of these measures HMRC, with discretion, is allowed to put those penalties forced 500,000 more people into the requirement to fill on hold and effectively say, “If you are good taxpayers in a self-assessment tax return. It is a huge bureaucratic for the next couple of years, this will disappear”; the cost to taxpayers, and managing the system must also penalty is then discharged. HMRC responded to me be a significant cost to Her Majesty’s Revenue and with, I must say, an innovative obtuseness that I rarely Customs. It is the root of the problem of collection. see. It responded that schedule 41 of the Finance Act Many PAYE employees have had never had to touch 2008 applies, as the taxpayer had failed to notify, in the tax system or fill in a self-assessment return. Luckily accordance with section 7 of the Taxes Management for them, they have been merrily ignorant of anything Act 1970. They had failed to notify, so that penalty to do with tax. It is all done at source by their employers—if suspension, which is allowed for other taxpayers, does they have no further complicated tax affairs, they need not apply. The taxpayer is also in some difficulty should do no more. The current situation has been a particular they wish to go to the first-tier tribunal as well, which hardship for these taxpayers. They might not have spotted would always result in failure on a statutory basis. the advertising that was fairly extensive at the time. I think the pressure of mumsnet.com, They perhaps received less than £50,000 at the time, but moneysavingexpert.com and, hopefully, myself has made over the years their income has crept over that figure HMRC use a degree of discretion in its ability to due to wage rises and better business. interpret “carelessness”, which is always a vague term. I have raised this issue for a couple of my constituents My thought of carelessness might be different from and pursued it with great vigour. I have argued with yours, Mr Chairman. However, HMRC has gone back HMRCthat the information about which PAYE employees and reassessed many penalty assessments. Over the time would face this charge is well known to Government of this new charge, there have been 97,405 penalties through the real-time information system of payroll across 37,406 customers. As ever, thanks to the Library that bigger employers have had to implement since for pulling out that type of detail for me. The charge has April 2012, and was rolled out gradually over time to all raised £15 million of penalties, which is not a vast sum. employers, even the smaller ones, running a PAYE system. A recent review—I think the Daily Mail was very much The information was available—primarily to the DWP, behind this, with pressure from some of its readers—shows so that it can assess whether people in receipt of benefits that, of those 35,000 cases involving a failure to notify, should not be, but HMRC had access to the system. a penalty of 15% had been charged because a reasonable I have failed to agree with HMRC’s stance on this. It excuse was not accepted. HMRC has actually recanted claims that the arm of Government dealing with the on that and allowed quite a number of thousands—6,000, DWP has got no relevance to their arm, which deals I believe—of these penalties to be waived, with £1.8 million with tax. The data has not been shared, even though the of penalty refunds. arms of Government had the information at their fingertips As part of its work, HMRC has designed a helpful and could have advised people that they were potentially flow diagram showing two events for which penalties falling foul of the system. In my arguments to HMRC could be refunded. The first is for when income has on behalf of my constituents, I argued for extra-statutory increased from below £50,000 to above £50,000 since concession A19, which is often used when HMRC the start of the high-income child benefit tax regime, 63WH High-income Child Benefit Charge3 SEPTEMBER 2019 High-income Child Benefit Charge 64WH

[Craig Mackinlay] tax return. Instantly, the net relevant income at the top part of the tax return is now bigger for many people and the second is for when a taxpayer has started a new with mortgage interest, even though the net effect for relationship, since the introduction of the charge, with a cash flow and everything else might be the same. There partner who is in receipt of child benefit. Those are the is now some relief for mortgage interest at the bottom two cases for which HMRC has given in and agreed to part of the tax return, by way of a credit of tax. the suspension of penalties, and that is to be very much applauded. I did not see the full shortcomings of that piece of legislation at the time, even though, at that Budget What do people do when they have a new child and statement some years ago, I raised concerns about make a claim? If they know that their income is over the changing the whole deductibility regime, which is limit, they may not bother at all—they might think, fundamental to tax. That legislation has caused another “We just won’t get involved.” For other families there is group of families, who are doing nothing particularly the CH2 form, which I will mention in more detail exotic, to be dragged into the high income child benefit shortly. As I have laid out thus far, we have dragged half tax charge,as their income has pitched into the £50,000-plus a million people into the self-assessment net. We have bracket because of the deductibility of mortgage interest, raised penalties under a system that I do not agree is even though nothing has changed. reasonable on statutory grounds. We are learning a lesson: should we seek to withdraw universal benefits in A real concern shared by all hon. Members in the some other field—that suggestion is not on the Conservative Chamber is that of the Women Against State Pension agenda, but it is raised from time to time, for example Inequality Campaign. They have been active because with winter fuel allowance—this has to be a salutary they have an axe to grind and I think that many of us lesson in how never to use the tax system to withdraw have sympathy with some of what they have to say. We benefits. are potentially building another problem for the future— I will conclude by addressing five areas, which might thankfully, I might be long gone from this place before take a little time. We have fiscal drag, because the it has to be solved. thresholds at which the full benefit is withdrawn—namely Earlier I described what people might do when they £50,000 and £60,000—have applied unchanged for six have a new baby. If they have earnings of more than years. We now find that as wages rise, more people are £60,000, they might think, “I just can’t be bothered to dragged annually into self-assessment. Since its inception fill in the form. I’m not going to get anything; why in 2013, 370,000 more families have to fill in a self- would I bother?” The CH2 form is not unreasonable or assessment return. too complex—it is actually quite free flowing and easy I am very surprised that the House did not pick up at to understand—but a lot of people do not bother at all. the time on the fact that the system completely blows The other choice they have, by filling in form CH2, is away the independent status of taxation for couples. to take the child benefit and then pay it back annually Even up to 1990, women were deemed to be the chattels through their self-assessment return, or to register for a of their husbands, and there was a single tax return. In nil award so that they are in receipt of child benefit but 1990, that was thankfully blown away, having been at nil value. That is really important for those who do overdue for a long time. I think the groundwork was not follow that route. They do not want the hassle of a laid by Geoffrey Howe and seen through by Lord Lamont. self-assessment return, so they decide to do nothing. After that date, people were treated as they should be The partner in that relationship, who is perhaps not for tax: as individuals. working, will not be building up a national insurance The system blows that away because one partner now record, because if someone fills in form CH2 and needs to ask the other, “What do you earn, because I decides not to take any child benefit, they will at least be need to determine whether it is you or I who pays the crediting up a national insurance contribution under high income child benefit tax charge?” The partner in class 3. My concern is that people do not know that this receipt of the child benefit might not be the one paying is there for them and are saying, as many of us do, the charge; it always falls on the higher earner. Whereas “I can’t be bothered to fill in another form. I don’t think before there was decent independence and secrecy between I will get anything. I won’t do it.” partners should they so wish, that was blown away by the legislation, and I do not feel that could ever be right. Weare potentially building up a problem of people—let us be frank, it is probably predominantly women—who Subsequent tax legislation has also had an unusual will find in the future that they do not have the national and, I think, unforeseen impact, including, particularly, insurance record that they thought they had. When on buy-to-let property. At the start of my speech, I they get their DWP statement with details of the award mentioned the concept of adjusted net income, which is they will receive with the new state pension some six income from PAYE, rents, dividends and whatever else months before retirement age, they will find it is rather one might receive. Changes to buy-to-let allowability of less than they thought. mortgage interest, however,have had an unforeseen impact. Years ago, rental income less expenses and mortgage Wehave to ask ourselves whywe have dragged 1.2 million interest would give a net figure, which would form the families into the system—and that figure is rising, due top end of the tax return and be part of the creation of to fiscal drag and the measures for buy-to-let property the relevant net income. With the gradual restriction of mortgage interest. It is worth mentioning the perversities the allowability of mortgage interest—I will not expand in the whole tax calculation. I do not know how Parliament on whether that is right, wrong or indifferent—the tax missed that. I was not here in 2013, but had I been I return looks different. Net relevant income for rental might have spotted it. It is an unusual situation, but purposes does not include the deduction for mortgage when dealing with tax systems, I think it best to flex the interest, which now comes at the bottom part of the edges to find out where the problems are. 65WH High-income Child Benefit Charge3 SEPTEMBER 2019 High-income Child Benefit Charge 66WH

This is an extreme case, but it is catered for on the Mr Philip Hollobone (in the Chair): The debate can go gov.uk website: in 2019-20 a family with 10 children—there on until 7.30 pm. I am obliged to call the first of the are not too many of those around—would be in receipt Front-Bench spokespeople at no later than seven minutes of £7,500 of child benefit. Anyone earning £50,000, past 7 o’clock. The guideline limits are five minutes for including a self-employed person, would be in receipt of the SNP, five minutes for Her Majesty’s Opposition and £7,500 in child benefit, but if they had the opportunity 10 minutes for the Minister to respond. Mr Mackinlay of a great new contract to get their income up to will then have three minutes at the end to sum up the £60,000, under this system they would have to pay back debate.Until 7.7 pm, therefore,we will still be in Back-Bench that entire £7,500. In my view, tax lost—tax paid—and time. I see that Mr Jim Shannon wishes to contribute. benefit lost are the same thing. What lands in someone’s bank account is the same thing, whether that is through 6.54 pm losing benefit or paying more tax. In effect, therefore, Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): Thank you, for that extreme example of a family, there would be a Mr Hollobone. It is always a pleasure to serve under 75% clawback charge, because they would pay back the your chairmanship. £7,500 child benefit owing to that £10,000 in additional income. I thank the hon. Member for South Thanet (Craig Mackinlay) for setting the scene with such detail, That is not where the matter ends, of course. People informationally and correctly. I am here not because I who earn £50,000 are higher-rate taxpayers, paying feature in Westminster Hall so regularly but because the 40% tax and, if employed, 2% national insurance. We issue is important to me and my constituents. I deal therefore have the perversity, which I am sure is not with it regularly in my office. always seen, of a 117% tax charge and benefit loss. For The hon. Gentleman set the scene well with examples that extra £10,000, that taxpayer will actually be worse of what has happened to his constituents. I would off by £11,700. There should not be such perversities in mirror those examples, and I will express similar concerns. the tax system. It is unfortunate that more Members are not present for I like a debate to end with a solution, but there is no the debate, but obviously there are enticements elsewhere easy solution to this one—I grant the Financial Secretary and reasons for people’s attention to be committed to that great problem. I would like to extend the penalty the main Chamber. That does not detract in any way suspension to all, because I think HMRC has been from the importance of this issue. I am pleased, as rather obtuse about this one. If people start to do the always, to see the Minister in his place. We look forward right thing, past penalties should be suspended and, if to hearing his comprehensive response. they do the right thing for the following two years, those The child benefit payments issue is of great concern penalties should disappear. to many of my constituents. Although many might not The easier option would be to restore the universality qualify for good reason, I will give examples of those of child benefit. Nothing is simpler than that—everyone who probably should qualify but for the paperwork, the gets it without means testing or complication—but the potential penalties for getting it wrong and then having Government and the Treasury understandably want to to catch up. That applies not just to child benefit but to claw back that benefit from people in receipt of higher tax credits—people fill in a form, their circumstances income. A complicated solution—or, rather, a politically change in the year and they find themselves owing difficult one—would be to reduce the personal allowance money back. Tax credits are not the subject of this for those with children. They would get their full child debate, of course, but I make that comment about what benefit but pay a little more in tax. At least that could puts people off. When a system is going well, it is be coded out—they need not worry about the self- marvellous, but when it goes wrong, it can be a real assessment system—and for the PAYE taxpayer with stinker. simple affairs, things would be just as they are. However, Child benefit makes a difference to many families in that would be a difficult way to do it. my constituency. From the outset, I must say that I am an advocate of the current threshold and the importance It would be simpler,perhaps, to make a higher universal of having that system. I know of many women who child benefit payment, which this year is £20.70 for the gave up their jobs or went part-time to mind their child first child and £13.70 for subsequent children, subject and therefore rely almost entirely on the wage of their to the benefits cap. Any increased child benefit, however, partner. The weekly child benefit supplement helps with should be made a taxable benefit. Therefore, through the day-to-day bills that need to be paid. Without that, coding, the Government could claw back 20% from a households would simply not function. The Government basic rate taxpayer, and 40% from a 40% taxpayer. For might argue that that is not the purpose of the child those with complicated tax affairs, adding the layer of benefit system, but I think that its purpose is to enable clawing back the high income child benefit tax charge is parents to look after their children in whatever way they no great difficulty. Something similar happens already. feel is right. The retired have a simple coding adjustment for private I am concerned about some cases in which one partner pensions to reflect the level of their state pension. is just over the threshold and has to start to do self- We need a new and elegant solution, and to learn the assessments. I know of a few cases in which couples lesson that whenever Governments in future claw back earn well below the £99,000 that they could earn when benefit, they should not do it in this way, through the taken together—for example, one partner on £50,000 tax system. It has created bureaucracy and angst, and I and the other on £15,000—but decide to forfeit their am worried that normal, law-abiding taxpayers now feel child benefit. Over-cautious, and in fear and trepidation, that they have done something very wrong because of they would rather that than face the hassle and possibly those levels of penalties. That is my appeal to the do the paperwork incorrectly. That is wrong—people Financial Secretary. losing the benefit rather than have the hassle. I am 67WH High-income Child Benefit Charge3 SEPTEMBER 2019 High-income Child Benefit Charge 68WH

[Jim Shannon] to an accountant to see what they can do for them, there is a cost factor that can be off-putting. People are therefore keen to endorse what the hon. Member for looking at whether they can be better off; they do not South Thanet said and to seek ministerial guidance on want to pay a cost for something that may lead to how we can help such people. nothing. What has been done to enable those who would qualify to receive their money? Something is wrong with a system that sets out to help people genuinely, sincerely and honestly, but fails I will conclude, and well in advance of the end of the those who could qualify. How do we enable those speaking time that you indicated, Mr Hollobone. Will people to fit into the system? Some might say that they the Minister indicate how we can streamline the process, can afford to live on what they have, but as they put it to bearing in mind that families are entitled to this benefit? me, “We are firmly middle class.” Over the past few I see families who are entitled to something but do not years in this House, I have often said that one of the pursue it because they are uncertain, cautious or worried categories of people to suffer greatly in society, because that it may disadvantage them somewhere down the of everything that has happened during recent times, is line. While the money may not necessarily go on nappies the lower middle class—the ones not far enough up to or similar, it does go to providing for children, which is qualify. For that squeezed bunch of people, the child what the Government are determined to do. benefit system is there to help, but unfortunately it does The Minister has committed to ensuring that everyone not. One constituent said: who wants the benefit can apply for it, but in my constituency, that of the hon. Member for South Thanet “we are firmly middle class. We will never be able to afford to pay all our bills and also help our children with buying a car, or tools and the constituencies of other hon. Members, there for their trade, or books for university”— are many examples of people who do not pursue it because of the uncertainty. The current system is overly or student grants— onerous and off-putting. I believe we can and must do “so we attempt to save from child benefit so there is money for the better. child when they need it.” They use that system with the clear and singular purpose 7.3 pm of benefiting their children. That is an example from Alison Thewliss (Glasgow Central) (SNP): It is a my office; the hon. Gentleman referred to similar examples, pleasure to serve with you in the chair, Mr Hollobone. and I suspect that once I sit down, other hon. Members I thank the hon. Member for South Thanet will do too. I fear that the self-assessment mechanism (Craig Mackinlay) for bringing this debate on an important precludes their getting that money and, in the long issue that highlights a real gap between the Government’s term, that that disadvantages the child and the family. intention and their delivery, which is failing a lot of But that is not its purpose, so the system must improve. people. He laid out the limitations of the policy, which HMRC issued around 97,500 penalty assessments to was headline-grabbing but has proven to be almost around 37,500 customers,amounting to almost £15 million. entirely ineffective and bureaucratic. It takes a benefit When people consider the penalties, the self-assessment that ought to be one of the simplest—child benefit, and the amount of money, they must think, “I’m not paid to help children as an important universal benefit—and going through that. I don’t want to get it wrong whittles away at it until it becomes a complex bureaucratic inadvertently.”People do not set out to get it wrong, but system that people will find difficult to access. they start the process, get it wrong through no fault of Organisations such as the Women’s Budget Group their own and end up with a large bill. Those figures have long argued that the UK Government’s approach show that some people are paying very large bills. to balancing the books is gendered and does not stand Although it is not the Government’s intention, people up to the most rudimental scrutiny from an equality decide not to pursue their claim. perspective. This policy is a key example of that. Budgets and spending reviews come and go, but we are yet to see I believe there is a different way of ensuring that high any real strategic direction in tackling gender inequality. earners can have access to what they are entitled to. The hon. Member for South Thanet mentioned that it People whom the Government say are entitled should removes the independence of individuals in the tax apply. How do we help those who are entitled? Every system. In doing so, it sets the scene for universal credit, year, the Government tell us that so much money is which also removes independence by treating people as returned to the Treasury because it is not taken up. It a household rather than individuals, and damages women’s could be all kinds of benefits, not just child benefit: financial ability in a relationship. In many cases, women attendance allowance, personal independence payments, are left in the grips of financial coercive control, and employment and support allowance, community care they do not have the financial ability to get out of an grants or pension credit—all the things that people may abusive relationship. qualify for. If the money is not used, it goes back. I always say to the person, “You know something? You’ve Looking at this policy, it is no surprise that women, worked hard all your days. You’ve paid your national particularly mothers, are disproportionately affected. insurance stamp; you’ve paid your tax every year; you’re The UK Government have failed to make it clear to a contributor to society. If you qualify for something, stay-at-home mums that even if they are not eligible to for goodness’ sake, apply for it.” It is important that we receive child benefit, they should still claim it and encourage people to do that. subsequently fill in a self-assessment tax return and pay the money back, in order to receive those national Some people feel that they need to see an accountant. insurance contributions. This is not an intuitive process; That is fine for those who have an accountant for their in fact, it is quite the opposite. Self-assessment is complex business. For those who are employed with a set wage and stressful. As the hon. Member for Strangford and cautious of the penalty notices, if they make overtures (Jim Shannon) said, people get lost in the complexity of 69WH High-income Child Benefit Charge3 SEPTEMBER 2019 High-income Child Benefit Charge 70WH the system. They are worried about getting it wrong, was expected to phone up and give intimate details to and they might have to get accountants involved. someone over the phone. That will be all the more That should not be the case for something as simple and difficult for a woman in a situation of financial coercive basic as child benefit—the money should follow the control, and it will give the male parent a huge amount child. of control. When I was elected, I knew vaguely about the child The Minister must look at this in significant detail. benefit process. I panicked, phoned up and cancelled He must try to assess the issues and put them right the child benefit I had previously received when I was a before we end up with another situation like that of local government councillor earning considerably less the WASPI women. We cannot have another situation than I do now. If MPs are led to panic, what chance in which women are disproportionately affected by does anyone else have? It is absurdly convoluted and an ill-thought-through Government policy from beyond the reasonable expectation that most people Westminster. would have of such a system. It is a very concerning prospect that this policy could store up significant 7.10 pm problems for the future, as the hon. Member for South Thanet set out. Many of my constituents are suffering Anneliese Dodds (Oxford East) (Lab/Co-op): It is a now from previous derelictions of duty in long-term pleasure to speak in this debate with you in the Chair, pension planning. We have all heard horror stories of Mr Hollobone. I congratulate the hon. Member for the Women Against State Pension Inequality Campaign; South Thanet (Craig Mackinlay) on securing the debate, women were not told that their pensions had changed which has been very good and detailed. I will not repeat until 14 years after the policy was introduced. There is all the points he made, or indeed all those made by the every chance that a new generation of women will run hon. Members for Strangford (Jim Shannon) and for into similar problems. Glasgow Central (Alison Thewliss), because I agree The child benefit form that is issued to parents is not with very many of them, but I want to underline some particularly simple. It includes a statement that claiming of the questions that I hope the Minister is able to child benefit can help to protect someone’s state pension, answer, or at least some of the issues that his Department but it is not clear enough what that actually means and needs strenuously to take on board. what the future implications will be. The Treasury believes As was rightly mentioned, new research on the high- that 200,000 parents may be affected. It fails to make it income child benefit charge indicates that much larger clear that a non-working parent—usually the mother— numbers of people are being drawn into the system should be the one to fill out the benefit form in order to than were initially. The Institute for Fiscal Studies build up those credits. It has been suggested that an indicated that since the £50,000 threshold has not shifted easy short-term fix would be to change the form, but we upwards,about 36% more people—370,000 more families— need to look at long-term solutions. Would the Minister will lose child benefit in 2019-20 than in 2013-14. The consider a review of the policy in the round, to actively system is now also interacting with changed tax systems look for cases of error where people may have unknowingly for other sources of income, such as the system for built up a gap in their pension contributions? We need those who eventually rely on rental income. to alert those affected. The Government have a duty to The Labour party has consistently objected to the make sure that people get the money back, because they removal of the universal nature of child benefit. Clearly, have not been clear enough. however, there are also practical reasons why the high- It has been suggested that a claim should be triggered income charge is unfit. It has added unnecessary automatically when a birth is registered; that may be complications, many of which we have already heard worth exploring in more detail. Will the Minister make about, and it has had a significant impact by requiring an interim change to the wording on the form, and up to around half a million people to engage in self- order a longer term review of this whole bourach of a assessment, which is not an easy process. process? Most parents will say that when they have a The hon. Member for South Thanet mentioned that newborn baby in their arms, the last thing they want to about 6,000 cases of supposed over-claiming of child do is fill in an extensive form about incomes. Of course, benefit have been written off by HMRC, which has incomes will change—sometimes dramatically—over the handed out refunds of about £1.8 million. It would be course of a child’s life. Those kinds of things have helpful to hear from the Minister what work is being happened again and again, and now we have the effect undertaken to ensure that all those who might benefit on the economy of the chaos of Brexit coming in. from some kind of refund of additional charges levied As I mentioned, it is a distressing thought, but the because of alleged over-claiming—I am not sure I like reality for many women is that their partners seek to that term, to be honest—are aware of that. exercise financial control over them. That small amount I hope the Minister also deals with the suggestion the of money can be incredibly important to a woman hon. Gentleman rightly made that the real-time information making plans to leave an abusive relationship, so child system could proactively be used to try to identify those benefit must not be removed by making it more difficult who might be in danger of falling into this kind of trap. to access. The higher earning person in that household— I am concerned to see yet again what appears to be a often the father—may say, “Don’t you worry about it; lack of co-ordination on what are often viewed as you stay at home and I’ll earn the money. You don’t Department for Work and Pensions responsibilities but need to worry about this”, which removes the woman’s in practice are delivered by HMRC or in some other chance of being financially independent. The notion way by the Treasury. I was concerned just before the that a woman has to know her partner’s intimate financial recess that the Minister’s Department did not seem to details is quite unusual. My husband and I have separate want to take responsibility for the clawing back of bank accounts. I have no idea what he earns, but I alleged overpayments of working tax credit from universal 71WH High-income Child Benefit Charge3 SEPTEMBER 2019 High-income Child Benefit Charge 72WH

[Anneliese Dodds] 7.17 pm credit. It said that was a DWP issue. It is not; it is a The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Jesse Norman): Treasury issue. Yet again, we have a lack of co-ordination. It is a great pleasure to serve in this reconvened Parliament That needs to be dealt with. under your chairmanship, Mr Hollobone. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for South Thanet (Craig Mackinlay) The high-income charge increases the complexity of very much for calling this debate and drawing attention the already incredibly complex tax system HMRC is to this important issue, and for his thought-provoking expected to deal with, and having to deal with appeals and expert speech, which very much reflected his arising from the charge increases the enormous burden professional experience as well as his political commitments. that HMRC staff already face. We all know that HMRC I very much welcome that. He raised a lot of issues, and has been cut more than any other European nation’s tax a wide range of issues were raised by the hon. Members department aside from that of Greece, which I suspect for Strangford (Jim Shannon), for Glasgow Central is not an example we would want to follow. We see the (Alison Thewliss) and for Oxford East (Anneliese Dodds). burden on HMRC staff increasing all the time, not least I will come to all those. Let me address some of them in given the prospect of a no-deal Brexit—we could hardly my opening remarks and then come to the specific have ignored that at the beginning of the debate, given questions that were raised. the noise from outside. Will the Minister say what As you will know, Mr Hollobone, child benefit was resource HMRC is being given to deal with that? introduced in 1977. It has always been, and it remains, a I share the concerns about the impact of the high-income universal benefit payable to individuals who are responsible charge on families with sole earners, which was rightly for what is referred to as a qualifying child or children. emphasised by the hon. Member for Strangford and Before 2013, there had been significant growth in the others. I also share the concerns about the impact of the use of the benefit—rightly and importantly so; of course, charge on independence. It is part of what we might call that is why benefits exist—but it was recognised that, at a triple whammy of a whole range of measures, including a time of austerity, there was an anomaly, in that more what we have seen in relation to universal credit. than £1 billion a year was being spent in child benefit on higher-rate taxpayers. That was felt to be not merely This debate has echoed many of the issues with imprudent from a financial standpoint but morally childcare tax credits, where there has been a lot of problematic. It would mean, as it were, taxing working confusion about things such as the relationship between people on low incomes to pay for the child benefit of parents’ incomes and who loses out as a result. The hon. those who earned considerably more. Gentleman described how families often use child benefit to create an asset for their children. That has become If it is true that, as the hon. Member for Oxford East increasingly important and relevant, as of course we no said, it is now Labour policy to remove the high-income longer have the child trust fund. child benefit charge—she was perfectly clear about it, so I think it is true, but she is welcome to correct me if it It is important that the Minister explains what is is not—the Labour party needs to ask itself whether it being done to deal with the long-term problem of thinks it appropriate to tax the wider population, including people inadvertently becoming unable to accrue state working people on low incomes, to pay the child benefit pension credits because they do not qualify for national of those who earn considerably more. We also note that insurance contributions or indicate that they want to be the cost to the Exchequer of such a policy is of the part of the system. Obviously, that disproportionately order of £1 billion to £1.5 billion. discriminates against women. There is already a huge gender pension gap. What are the Government doing to ensure that those who might be caught by this issue are Anneliese Dodds: I am grateful to the Minister for not? I absolutely agree, having been through that process giving away. He is well aware that we opposed the myself—I suppose I should declare an interest in that measure at the time, as we did many other elements of regard—that its impact is not obvious. There is no clear the Government’s programme. We also criticised the tax indication that it will result in a big reduction in a cuts given at the same time to the highest earners and to person’s retirement income. profitable corporations, which in their magnitude over time were more substantial than what we are talking It would also be useful to understand any possible about now. disincentive effects of this measure. I am not sure that the case the hon. Member for South Thanet mentioned is as unlikely as all that. I remember from my childhood Jesse Norman: That is an ingenious attempt to link a family up the road who suddenly, very sadly, dropped two issues that, in and of themselves, are not connected. down to a sole earner. They had nine children, and the One can have a policy on high income tax earners and father, as the sole earner, had to bring them up. What the payment of child benefit to them and one can have will the impact be in such cases if there is suddenly this an entirely separate policy about other aspects of the kind of cliff edge? We have seen the impact of cliff tax system. The question remains whether it is morally edges with the overall family benefit cap. We are in appropriate to give the benefit to those people, and the danger of replicating that here. judgment in 2013 was that it was not the right thing to do. That was an important consideration. I hope the Minister answers those questions. Obviously, I hope the whole high-income child benefit charge is If the hon. Lady is concerned about the wider picture, abandoned. I do not expect him to make quite as I remind her that—I think I am right in saying this—the dramatic an announcement here, but I hope he rules out top 1% of taxpayers pay a higher percentage of tax now any reduction in the availability of other universal than at any other point in our history. benefits, given the kinds of issues we have discussed and the impact on equity. Anneliese Dodds rose— 73WH High-income Child Benefit Charge3 SEPTEMBER 2019 High-income Child Benefit Charge 74WH

Jesse Norman: I am keen to press on. If the hon. claim child benefit. The front page of the child benefit Lady wants to make another intervention, we will lose application form includes a prominent message about time that I can use to respond to other questions. the charge to help people make a decision on whether they should claim and be paid child benefit, about the Mr Philip Hollobone (in the Chair): Order. The importance of claiming even if they do not receive intervention is in the gift of the Minister, but I draw the payments, and about the important issue of eligibility, House’s attention to the fact that the Minister has only which was rightly highlighted in the debate. Guidelines 5 minutes left. are available online formally through gov.uk and through innumerable organisations and groups. Anneliese Dodds: Thank you, Mr Hollobone. I merely As my hon. Friend the Member for South Thanet state that the Minister is correct in relation to income mentioned, individuals who pay the charge need to tax, but not in relation to other taxes. make a self-assessment tax return and may face a failure to notify penalty if they do not. I think he will know Jesse Norman: The judgment made in 2013 was that that HMRC announced a review of cases where a it was appropriate to claw back some of the money paid failure to notify penalty was issued for three tax years. to people on higher incomes and that everyone should It reviewed 35,000 cases and responded by reviewing make a fair contribution to removing the deficit while the amount for over 6,000 people. supporting those on the lowest incomes. I think that There are many other points to cover in the short was the right judgment. Of course, for a minority of time that remains. My hon. Friend said that 500,000 claimants where either they or their partner earn more people have been forced into self-assessment. I am than £50,000 in adjusted net income, there is a requirement happy to write to him on that. As he will be aware, the to pay the tax charge or to opt out of receiving child current number paying the charge through tax returns is benefit payments and therefore not pay the charge. 293,000. Of course, there are some 40 million people in It is a fair criticism, made eloquently by my hon. pay-as-you-earn. He also said that the charge has dragged Friend the Member for South Thanet and others from 1.2 million people into the system. I am not quite sure across the House, that the charge does not take into about that, but if he wants to contact me, I will be account overall household incomes, so it is possible—and happy to assist him further. it does happen—that a single parent earning more than The hon. Member for Glasgow Central said that the £50,000 is liable to the charge while a couple each charge is a gendered policy. I do not think that is true at earning up to £50,000 is not. That is because, as he said, all, and many other aspects of Government policy do the charge is a tax, calculated in accordance with the not reflect anything like that position, as she will be principles of individual taxation at the individual level aware. For example, there is extensive work in supporting alongside other tax policy. Here we have one of those women as entrepreneurs and women in business. difficult decisions for the Government about what is the right thing to do. The judgment made in 2013 was that Alison Thewliss: Will the Minister give way? it was better to take that approach than to base a charge on household incomes, because that would require HMRC Jesse Norman: I really cannot; I have two seconds to assess annually both household composition and the left. incomes of everyone in the 8 million or so households eligible for child benefit, which would effectively introduce The hon. Member for Oxford East mentioned fiscal a new means , creating a substantial administrative drag. That is an important issue, but I do not think she burden on both the state and families. That is the is right that the charge has removed the universal nature dilemma. of child benefit; it merely allows for a charge against it. The effect of the charge is to introduce a high marginal tax rate. That is an unattractive aspect of the policy; we 7.28 pm should be clear about that. If I may say so, it is not a Craig Mackinlay: I am delighted to have the final say. salutary lesson in how not to withdraw a benefit, because I thank hon. Members who attended the debate. There the alternatives of not levying the charge at all or were contributions from the hon. Member for Strangford levying it on a cliff edge rather than by gradual withdrawal (Jim Shannon), as ever, as well as the hon. Members for are worse. It is open to others to take the view that one Glasgow Central (Alison Thewliss) and for Oxford East of the alternatives is better, and my hon. Friend may do (Annelise Dodds). We spar regularly on tax matters so, but not subject to the fiscal constraints in which we across whichever Chamber we are in, but I think we are have operated. broadly in agreement that the system is complex, that it A series of questions were raised about HMRC could have been made easier and that there are problems communications. As my hon. Friend recognised, the that need to be solved. Revenue and Customs took considerable steps to raise I am pleased to receive a degree of assurance from awareness of the higher income child benefit charge. It the Financial Secretary to the Treasury. He accepted wrote to about 800,000 affected families when the charge that the charge was a measure of its time, when urgent was introduced. It also ran a high-profile advertising measures were needed to respond to the state of the media campaign and included a prominent message country’s finances. It has not been part of my argument about the charge in 2 million letters to pay-as-you-earn-only that such a clawback should not exist. My observation higher rate taxpayers. There was a considerable has been that, if we are to have methods of clawback, communication process. we need to design systems that are more elegant than Today, to respond to the question from the hon. this one. I hope he will pass on to HMRC my issues Member for Strangford, information on the charge is regarding the penalty regime. Perhaps this can be the included in packs for new parents telling them how to last of it, with people made aware that, yes, if they do 75WH High-income Child Benefit Charge3 SEPTEMBER 2019 High-income Child Benefit Charge 76WH

[Craig Mackinlay] Resolved, That this House has considered the high income child benefit wrong in the future, a penalty regime may apply.However, charge. I would like to see a softer touch, given the modest amounts involved, for those stuck in cases at the moment. 7.30 pm Question put and agreed to. Sitting adjourned. 1WS Written Statements 3 SEPTEMBER 2019 Written Statements 2WS

months of this year alone, Erdermir posted profits of Written Statements $186 million and 2.4 million tonnes of liquid steel production. Tuesday 3 September 2019 While the completion of the sale is by no means certain, the Government will continue to fully engage with all relevant parties as the sales process continues. BUSINESS, ENERGY AND INDUSTRIAL I would like to pay special tribute to the excellent STRATEGY work and dedication of the British Steel Support Group as well as that of my predecessor, the right hon. Member for Tunbridge Wells (). The support group British Steel includes Members from across the House of Commons, local political leaders, local enterprise partnerships, trade union representatives,British Steel management, in addition The Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial to Make UK and the FSB. Working constructively with Strategy (Andrea Leadsom): I want to update the House the Government, this body has been instrumental in on the latest developments regarding British Steel Limited. helping to move to the next stage of this process. On 22 May British Steel entered insolvency, and While there are challenges in the global steel market, control of the company passed to the court appointed the opportunities for growth are substantial—including official receiver. The Government provided an indemnity an additional £3.8 billion per year of potential domestic to the official receiver which enabled British Steel to sales for UK steel producers from 2030. Britain and the continue to trade, customers to receive orders, key rest of the world will continue to need high-quality suppliers to maintain their services, and staff to continue steel, and British steel is among the best in the world. to be employed. The Government have already taken wide-ranging action Since then, the official receiver has been running an to support the industry, including compensation for independent sales process with a view to finding a energy costs and introducing specific public procurement secure future for British Steel. The Government have guidelines for steel. worked tirelessly with the official receiver and all interested Each one of British Steel’s sites has a proud record of parties to leave no stone unturned to find a suitable steelmaking excellence which we are determined to see buyer for the company and to keep steel coming off the continue.I want to reassure colleagues that the Government production line. remain firmly committed to securing a bright future for Following several weeks of discussions with a number British Steel. In the days and weeks ahead we will of interested parties, on the 16 August the official continue to work closely with all parties to leave no receiver confirmed it had accepted a bid from Ataer stone unturned to finalise the sale and will take every Holding AS for the whole business. This is an important possible step to ensure a long-term future for these and positive step towards protecting thousands of direct valuable operations. jobs and many more in the supply chain, and to securing [HCWS1806] steelmaking operations at British Steel’ssites in Scunthorpe, Skinningrove and on Teesside. Work is now continuing to seek to finalise the details Clean Steel Fund and Low Carbon Hydrogen of a sale and the Government will continue to work Production Fund closely with the official receiver and the preferred bidder during this process. This has been a worrying time for British Steel’s The Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial dedicated workers, their families, those in the supply Strategy (Andrea Leadsom): Moving to net zero greenhouse chain and their wider communities. Throughout this gas emissions for the UK economy requires transformation process their welfare has been paramount. This positive across all sectors of the economy and unprecedented step, and the ability to secure a new owner, is due in levels of investment in green and low carbon technologies. large part to their commitment to securing the future of The UK is a world leader in clean growth and in setting the company.This commitment and drive was abundantly our ambitious, legally binding, target of achieving net clear in my visit to the site in Scunthorpe with the zero emissions across the economy by 2050 we have Industry Minister, during my first week as Business demonstrated our commitment to maintain this position. Secretary. A vibrant steel sector is of vital importance to the The Government’s determination, coupled with the UK economy. The sector employs 32,000 people and support of Members from across the House of Commons, supports up to a further 40,000 jobs through its supply ensured every possible step was taken to secure a buyer chains. With long standing expertise in steel making, and throughout the process our focus remained firmly the UK is well positioned to demonstrate international on securing a buyer who could take the whole business leadership in clean steel and realise domestic growth forward. and export opportunities in associated products and While much remains to be achieved, Ataer has a technical knowledge. long-term, strategic vision for growing British Steel Today, the UK steel sector is a significant source of with their parent company OYAK publicly stating that emissions cwwontributing 15% to industrial greenhouse if this sale goes through their priority will be to increase gas emissions. The integrated steel works at the British production capacity and investment. Ataer is already in Steel site in Scunthorpe and the Tata Steel UK site Port the steel industry, as the largest shareholder in Erdermir, Talbot are the two largest industrial sources of emissions ’s largest flat steel producer. ln the first three in the UK. 3WS Written Statements 3 SEPTEMBER 2019 Written Statements 4WS

We believe the time is right to provide dedicated This is in addition to the £1.5 billion per year that we support to our steel industry, to help put it on a pathway will continue to provide to fund additional pension to decarbonisation in line with our net zero commitments. costs for teachers over the next three years. As a signal of that support, on 29 August, Government We will also be investing an extra £400 million in announced a £250 million Clean Steel Fund. 16-19 education next year—the single biggest annual There are a range of different decarbonisation options increase for the sector since 2010. for steel production: switching to lower carbon fuels, My statement will set out core schools funding at a including hydrogen; industrial carbon capture; and energy national level. Illustrative school level allocations and and material efficiency. In order to better understand provisional local authority level allocations through the the needs of the steel sector and which pathways best schools and high needs National Funding Formulae meet our objectives we issued a call for evidence alongside will be announced next month. I will then write to the fund’s announcement to inform its future design. Members with further details on the impact for schools We will work with the steel sector and other stakeholders and local areas. to develop timelines for the fund and to identify how to maximise the economic and environmental benefits of [HCWS1811] these decarbonisation options. Recognising that availability of low carbon hydrogen at scale is a constraint to large industrial users considering fuel switching, Government have also announced a new ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS £100 million Low Carbon Hydrogen Production Fund. The fund will support the deployment of low carbon hydrogen production capacity and encourage private sector investment. This could enable a pathway to lower Summer Flooding and Reservoir Review carbon steel production and support broader efforts to reduce emissions across the energy system, including transport, other industry, power and potentially heat in buildings. The Government intend to consult on the The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and shape of the fund during 2020 with a view to launching Rural Affairs (Theresa Villiers): This summer sawsignificant the fund for bids in 2021. rainfall that unfortunately impacted several communities. In June, properties and farmland were flooded after the Together these funds will be a vital part of transforming River Steeping broke its banks leading to a quick response UK industry and allow us to seize the opportunities of from the Environment Agency supported by the RAF. clean growth, which are at the heart of our modern At the end of July there was significant rainfall which industrial strategy. led to flooding in several communities. The flash flooding [HCWS1807] in North Yorkshire saw homes, businesses and farms affected as well as causing damage to roads and bridges resulting in travel disruption. On 1 August further heavy DEFENCE rainfall led to the spillway of Toddbrook Reservoir experiencing damage. This did not lead to a breach of Reserve Forces and Cadets Association External the dam itself, but to ensure the safety of Whaley Security Team Report 2019 Bridge, a decision was taken by the local resilience forum to evacuate 1,500 people until the authorities could be assured there was no ongoing risk. The local The Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Ben Wallace): community responded with grace and patience despite I have today placed in the Library of the House a the disruption this caused to their daily lives, which we copy of a report into the condition of the reserves and are grateful for. Recovery continues in both North delivery of the Future Reserves 2020 programme compiled Yorkshire and Wainfleet, where the local authorities are by the reserve forces and cadets associations external working with those affected. scrutiny team. I am most grateful to the team for their work. The report raises interesting points which, after a In Whaley Bridge, everyone was able to return home thorough examination, I will respond to later in the within a week. The Canal and River Trust, supported year. by the EA, fire service, voluntary organisations, contractors [HCWS1810] and the RAF worked to reduce the water levels in the reservoir and shore up the damaged spillway with over 500 one-tonne bags of aggregate to effect a temporary, EDUCATION but stable, repair. COBRA engaged a panel of experts, led by GO-Science, to review and advise on the engineers’ safety report and immediate management of the reservoir, Education Funding before the local resilience forum made the decision to end the evacuation. The Secretary of State for Education (Gavin Williamson): A plan is in place to ensure the water levels are Today I will be making an oral statement in the House, monitored and remain at safe levels until full repairs are updating on the schools and colleges funding package completed. As the body responsible for Toddbrook announced by the Prime Minister last weekend. Reservoir, the Canal and River Trust (CRT) is now fully The package includes a cash increase compared to assessing the damage and identifying the most appropriate 2019-20 of £2.6 billion to core schools funding next long-term repairs to provide confidence in the long year, with increases of £4.8 billion and £7.1 billion in term safety of this dam. As the regulator, the EA will 2021-22 and 2022-23 respectively. assess the proposals. My officials in DEFRA will also 5WS Written Statements 3 SEPTEMBER 2019 Written Statements 6WS work with the CRT as they consider the long term TRANSPORT future of the reservoir taking into account both the views of the local community and their legal obligations. I wish to thank the Whaley Bridge residents displaced HS2 from their homes for their forbearance and patience in difficult circumstances. I also want to recognise and thank the emergency services, local authorities, the The Secretary of State for Transport (Grant Shapps): Environment Agency, our servicemen and women, The Prime Minister and I have been clear about the contractors and the very many volunteers who responded potential for transport investment to drive growth, in all of these situations to both mitigate the immediate redistribute opportunity and support towns and cities impacts or risks and support those who were affected. across the UK. But we have been equally clear that the costs and benefits of those investments must stack up. On 10 August the Government announced a £5.25 million package of support for these communities The Government announced on 21 August 2019 an which included support to the local authorities for the independent, cross-party review led by Douglas Oakervee extra costs, funding for bridge repairs and support to into whether and how HS2 should proceed. The review farmers for any uninsurable costs. will consider its affordability, deliverability, benefits, scope and phasing, including its relationship with Northern We have an excellent reservoir safety record in this Powerhouse Rail. I have published the terms of reference country, but it is important that we learn from this in full on gov.uk. incident to ensure such infrastructure, and the legislation The chair will be supported by a deputy chair, Lord that governs it, is and remains fit for purpose. To that Berkeley, and a panel of experts from business, academia end, I am commissioning an independent review which and transport to ensure an independent, thorough and will investigate what might have led to the damage, objective assessment of the programme. Panellists will whether there was anything that could have prevent or provide input to, and be consulted on, the report’s predicted it and identify any lessons learned. This review conclusions. will supplement the future report from the Canal and Rivers Trust into their assessment of the factors that led The review will report to me this autumn. I will to the damaged spillway. discuss its findings with the Prime Minister and Chancellor of the Exchequer. Its recommendations will inform our Any lessons learned will be shared with other reservoir decisions on our next steps. owners to inform their inspection and maintenance HS2 is the single largest project of this Government. regimes, to be used to make recommendations to Ministers One important aspect of the panel’s work is to consider to update the implementation of current regulations, whether both the costs, and the benefits, of the scheme including inspection guidance, and/or to suggest any have been correctly identified. HS2’s business case has changes required to current reservoir safety legislation. been founded on increasing capacity on our constrained I am expecting an interim report by the end of the year. rail network, improving connectivity, and stimulating In advance of this piece of work the Environment economic growth and regeneration. The current budget Agency,as the regulator for reservoir safety,have contacted was established in 2013 and later adjusted to 2015 the operators of over 2,000 reservoirs since the Toddbrook prices. Since that time, significant concerns have been incident requesting that all operators check that there raised. are no safety concerns. The EA has identified eight I want the House to have the full picture. There is no reservoirs that have concrete spillways with some similarity future in obscuring the true costs of a large infrastructure to Toddbrook Reservoir and has followed up directly project—as well as the potential benefits. with the owners of these eight reservoirs to secure The recently appointed chairman of HS2 Ltd, Allan additional inspections. At this stage there is no indication Cook, provided his advice to me on the cost and of any concerns with any of these eight reservoirs. The deliverability of the current scheme shortly after my EA is also carrying out inspections of their own reservoirs appointment as Transport Secretary—and I want the directly, and the Department is writing to reservoir House to have the full details at the earliest opportunity. owners and the local resilience forums to ensure they I am determined to set out everything that is currently have up to date flood and evacuation plans in place. known, so I have today placed a copy of the advice in Climate change and population growth mean that the the Libraries of both Houses. This has only been redacted risks from flooding and coastal erosion are increasing. where commercially necessary, and the Oakervee review That is why Government are looking to update the panel will of course see the report in full. flood and coastal erosion policy framework to ensure Colleagues will see that the chairman of HS2 does that we can continue to manage these risks effectively not believe that the current scheme design can be delivered into the future. By the end of 2019, the Government within the budget of £55.7 billion, set in 2015 prices. will set out their policies to better prepare the country Instead he estimates that the current scheme requires a for flooding and coastal erosion in a Government policy total budget—including contingency—in the range of statement on flooding and coastal erosion. The Government £72 to £78 billion, again in 2015 prices. will also set out plans for a step change in broader Regarding schedule, the chairman does not believe infrastructure investment through the publication of a the current schedule of 2026 for initial services on phase national infrastructure strategy later in the autumn. 1 is realistic. In line with lessons from other major Informed by this Government policy, the Environment transport infrastructure projects, his advice proposes a Agency will update its national strategy for flood and range of dates for the start of service. He recommends coastal erosion risk management. 2028 to 2031 for phase 1—with a staged opening, [HCWS1808] starting with initial services between London Old Oak 7WS Written Statements 3 SEPTEMBER 2019 Written Statements 8WS

Common and Birmingham Curzon Street, followed by further delay for the main construction stage of phase 1 services to and from London Euston later. He expects in the event that the Government choose to continue. phase 2b, the full high-speed line to Manchester and Similarly, I intend to continue to progress the next Leeds, to open between 2035 and 2040. stages of the hybrid Bill for phase 2a, west midlands to He has also suggested that phase 2a, west midlands Crewe, in the House of Lords while the review is ongoing. to Crewe, could be delivered to the same timetable as This update is intended to provide colleagues with phase 1, subject to parliamentary approval. Finally, he the information they require about the current status of is of the view that the benefits of the current scheme are the HS2 programme. An independent review is now substantially undervalued. HS2 Ltd continues to refine under way to give us the facts about the costs of the its estimates of cost, benefits and schedule. All these HS2 project. I want to be clear with colleagues that will be considered within the scope of the Oakervee there is no future for a project like this without being review. transparent and open, so we will be candid when challenges I said when I announced the independent review into emerge. Therefore, as soon as I have a clear sense of the HS2 that I now want Doug Oakervee and his panel to costs and benefits from Doug Oakervee’s review I will assess independently these findings from the chairman update the House. of HS2 Ltd and other available evidence. That review will provide independent recommendations on whether In the same spirit, my permanent secretary has today and how we proceed with the project. written to the National Audit Office, offering my Furthermore, the costs and benefits of HS2 have Department’s support—in their inquiry already under been quoted in 2015 prices since the last spending way—in auditing not only the project’s cost and schedule review. While this allows a stable set of numbers to pressures, but the steps taken in response to these. compare against, it also risks being misconstrued and We all in this House know we must invest in modern understating the relative cost of the project, and indeed infrastructure to ensure the future prosperity of our its benefits. country and its people. Welook back to past achievements I therefore think it is worth also updating the House with a sense of pride—from the canals and railways in current prices. Adjusting by construction cost inflation, that ensured the UK led the world into the industrial the range set out in Allan Cook’s report is equivalent revolution, to the space ports and launch sites we are to £81 to £88 billion in 2019 prices, against a budget now considering that will make the UK a global leader equivalent to £62.4 billion. in space. These endeavours both inspire and improve To be clear, these additions do not represent an the quality of our everyday lives. It is therefore right increase in the project’s underlying costs, and are largely that we subject every project to the most rigorous a point of presentation. Nonetheless, I will discuss with scrutiny; and if we are to truly maximise every opportunity, the Chancellor the case for updating the costs and this must always be done with an open mind and a clean benefits of HS2 to current prices to ensure transparency. sheet of paper. Again, this is another reason for an independent review. The attachment can be viewed online at http://www. During the short period in which the independent parliament.uk/business/publications/written-questions- review completes its work I have authorised HS2 Ltd to answers-statements/written-statement/Commons/2019- continue the current works that are taking place on the 09-03/HCWS1809/. project. This will ensure we are ready to proceed without [HCWS1809] 1P Petitions 3 SEPTEMBER 2019 Petitions 2P

The petitioners therefore request that the House of Petitions Commons urges the Government and Post Office Limited to keep Heywood Post Office open at its current location. Tuesday 3 September 2019 And the petitioners remain, etc.—[Presented by Liz McInnes, Official Report, 25 June 2019; Vol. 662, c. 606.] PRESENTED PETITION [P002479] Petition presented to the House but not read on the Floor Observations from the Parliamentary Under-Secretary Proposed Strategic Rail Freight Interchanges of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy south of Northampton (Kelly Tolhurst): The petition of Residents of the constituencies of The Government value and recognise the important South Northamptonshire and Daventry, role that the Post Office plays in communities such as Declares that the sites for the two proposed Heywood and across the UK. This is why we committed Strategic Rail Freight Interchanges between the villages in our 2017 manifesto to safeguarding the Post Office of Blisworth, Milton Malsor, Collingtree and Roade network and protect existing rural services. Since 2010, in Northamptonshire, either side of the Northampton the number of branches in the network has been at its Loop Line as it branches from the West Coast Main most stable for decades, at over 11,500, Line to the south of Northampton, to be unsuitable; notes that the West Northamptonshire Joint Core Strategy While the Post Office is publicly owned, it is a commercial has previously excluded these sites from industrial business. The Government set the strategic direction for development; further that the local road network, including the Post Office—to maintain a national network accessible the M1, A43, A45, A5, and A508, is operating at or to all and to do so more sustainably for the taxpayer—and above capacity, and that development at the proposed allows the company the commercial freedom to deliver sites would exacerbate existing problems of traffic, air this strategy as an independent business. pollution, and noise, and impose additional visual blight; We understand that changes to Post Office services further it has not been demonstrated by the developers will be a concern to some local residents of Heywood, or Network Rail that there is the existing capacity on but franchising proposals will help retain Post Office the West Coast Main Line to provide requisite freight services on high streets throughout the country and paths for either and/or both of the sites; further that the bring further investment and modernisation for customers. existing Strategic Rail Freight Interchange, Daventry The Post Office has always been a franchise network: International Rail Freight Terminal, which is coterminous 50 years ago, 92% of the network was operated on a in catchment with the two proposed sites, has recently franchise basis and there has been active franchising of expanded and has extensive unused capacity; and further Crown branches for 30 years. Today, 98% of the network that two local petitions on behalf of Stop Rail Central operates successfully on a franchise or agency basis. and Stop Roxhill Northampton Gateway against the The Post Office’s proposals to franchise or host Crown two proposed Strategic Rail Freight Interchanges have branches, including the Heywood branch, are part of its received over 17,500 signatures and the overwhelming plans to ensure a sustainable network in the face of view of the local community is that neither proposal is challenging trading conditions in the Post Office’s core acceptable. market and the wider retail sector. In fact, moving The petitioners therefore request that the House Crown post offices to retail partners has helped reduce of Commons urges the Government to press upon losses in this part of the network from £46 million per the Secretary of State for Transport the great many year in 2012 to break-even today. Working with a retail concerns that residents of the constituencies of South partner is a sensible response to the challenges facing Northamptonshire and Daventry have about the two high street retailers, enabling shared costs across the proposed Strategic Rail Freight Interchanges, and to combined businesses, with the franchise partner benefiting not grant Development Consent Orders for either proposal. from increased footfall and income from Post Office And the petitioners remain, etc. products. Citizens Advice has been involved throughout [P002511] the franchising process as consumer watchdog and its evidence concludes that customer satisfaction remained OBSERVATIONS high in franchised branches. Furthermore, in terms of quality of service and access arrangements a recent report by Citizens Advice indicates that franchised branches are BUSINESS, ENERGY AND INDUSTRIAL performing in line with or better than traditional branches. STRATEGY WHSmith has been successfully operating post offices Heywood Post Office within its stores since 2017 and currently runs over 200 branches, demonstrating proficiency to run the The petition of residents of Heywood and Middleton, branch in Heywood should the consultation lead to the Declares that Crown Post Offices provide a vital branch relocation. The franchise arrangement will bring service to their communities; further that Post Office extended opening hours and seven-day trading for Limited propose to close Heywood Post Office and to customers offering a wide range of products and services. franchise the service to a local retailer; further that there In relation to accessibility, when relocating a branch, is concern that this will adversely affect jobs, quality of the Post Office is aware of the needs of its customers, service, and accessibility, and have a negative impact on including the most vulnerable. In fact, the Post Office Heywood town centre; and further that a local paper works with the new partner to ensure that Post Office petition and online petition on this matter has received branches meet all relevant legal accessibility requirements, signatures. whether branches are directly managed or franchised 3P Petitions 3 SEPTEMBER 2019 Petitions 4P within WHSmith, and indeed all franchising partners. Petitions in the same terms were presented by the The Post Office has a proven track record for going hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) [P002499], above and beyond to ensure convenient access for all the hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife (Douglas customers, including those with disabilities or mobility Chapman) [P002505], the hon. Member for Liverpool, issues. In fact, the Post Office now provides accessibility West Derby (Stephen Twigg) [P002506], and the hon. information on the on-line branch finder. The Post Member for Glasgow Central (Alison Thewliss) [P002507]. Office also invites the local community to submit comments Observations from the Minister for the Middle East on access as part of a formal consultation process. and North Africa (Dr Andrew Murrison): Regarding the Post Office’s consultation in Heywood, The Government are deeply concerned by the ongoing this ran for six weeks and closed on 6 March 2019. This conflict in Yemen. We are providing £200 million in process sought to inform, and gather views from, opinion response to the humanitarian crisis in Yemen this financial formers and local stakeholders on the proposed changes year (2019-20). This brings the total UK commitment to the network and to allow the public to inform the to Yemen to £770 million since the conflict began in Post Office’s plans for the new branch. The consultation 2015. This new support is providing vital food assistance document highlighted that, should the relocation go right across the country to those most at risk of dying ahead, the branch will be moving approximately 170 metres from starvation and disease, meeting the immediate away from its current location, that opening hours will food needs of more than 1 million Yemenis each month be extended by nine hours per week and will now include over the year, treating 30,000 children for malnutrition, Sunday opening. and providing over 1 million people with improved The Post Office also held a customer forum on 26 March water supply and basic sanitation. To ensure the UN can to allow the public to speak to them directly.This process continue to cover urgent needs this year, the UK has is in line with the Post Office’s code of practice on brought forward funding from our £200 million pledge changes to the network agreed with Citizens Advice. A and by the end of August will have provided 87% of the recent review by the Citizens Advice reported that the funding we pledged to UN agencies this year. Post Office consultation process is increasingly effective, The Government continue to lead diplomatic efforts with improvements agreed in most cases, demonstrating to achieve a political settlement, which is the only way that the Post Office listens to the community. Following to bring long-term stability to Yemen and to address the the consultation and review, Post Office Limited is worsening humanitarian crisis. The UK fully supports currently reviewing feedback received and a decision is the peace process led by the UN Special Envoy and yet to be reached. encourages the parties to act in good faith to implement The sustainability and future success of the Post the agreements made in Stockholm. We urge all parties Office network remain of the utmost importance to the to engage constructively to overcome obstacles and to Government. We recognise their value to communities, find a political solution to end the conflict. A nationwide residents, businesses and tourists in all parts of the UK, ceasefire will only have an effect on the ground if it is including Heywood. We will continue to honour our underpinned by a political deal between the parties. manifesto commitments so that Post Offices can thrive The Government take their export control obligations and remain at the heart of our rural and urban communities. extremely seriously and we operate one of the most robust export control regimes in the world. The Court FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE of Appeal judgment found against the Government on one of the three grounds of appeal: that the export licence decision-making process contained an error of Ceasefire in Yemen approach in respect of considerations over past alleged The petition of Residents of the United Kingdom, violations of IHL as part of our assessment of “clear Declares that Yemen is the world’s worst humanitarian risk”under criterion 2c. The other grounds were dismissed. situation, where over 91,000 people have been killed in The Government disagrees with the judgement and had the war in Yemen, a further 24.1 million need humanitarian received permission to appeal to the Supreme Court. assistance and over 14 million are on the brink of Alongside this, we are carefully considering the implications starvation; further that the Court of Appeal decision of of the judgment for decision-making. While we do this, June 20th 2019 deemed arms-exports licences to Saudi we will not grant any new licences for exports to Saudi Arabia as “unlawful”. Arabia and other members of the Saudi-led Coalition of items, which might be used in the conflict in Yemen. The petitioners therefore request that the House of The role of the Court has been to review the process by Commons urges the Government to pursue an immediate which the Government reached their decisions—not to ceasefire in Yemen, the implementation of the Stockholm assess whether the decisions were right or wrong on Agreement, and to honour the decision of the Court their merits. The Court has not ordered that existing of Appeal; licences must be suspended but that the Government And the petitioners remain, etc.—[Presented by Keith must reconsider their decisions. The Court expressly Vaz, Official Report, 24 July 2019; Vol. 663, c. 1402.] clarified that the outcome of that consideration was not [P002498] a foregone conclusion. 1MC Ministerial Corrections3 SEPTEMBER 2019 Ministerial Corrections 2MC

happened to FDI into the UK? The flows increased Ministerial Correction by 20%. So much for the negative effects of Brexit uncertainty. Tuesday 3 September 2019 [Official Report, 23 July 2019, Vol. 663, c. 519WH.] Letter of correction from the Under-Secretary of State INTERNATIONAL TRADE for International Trade, the hon. Member for Beverley and Holderness (Graham Stuart). Errors have been identified in my response to the UK Trade and Investment Strategy debate on the UK Trade and Investment Strategy. The following is an extract from the Westminster Hall The correct statement should have been: debate on the UK Trade and Investment Strategy on Graham Stuart: To put the FDI numbers into further 23 July 2019. context, UNCTAD’s figures show that FDI flows—flows not stocks; I hope the hon. Member for Sefton Central Graham Stuart: To put the FDI numbers into further (Bill Esterson) knows the difference—fell by 13% globally context, UNCTAD’s figures show that FDI flows—flows in 2018. [Interruption.] I am now talking about flows as not stocks; I hope the hon. Member for Sefton Central opposed to stocks, so it is repetition, but about a (Bill Esterson) knows the difference—fell by 19% globally different aspect of something that I hope the hon. in 2018. [Interruption.] I am now talking about flows as Gentleman would take an interest in. FDI flows fell by opposed to stocks, so it is repetition, but about a 13% globally and by 55% in continental Europe. What different aspect of something that I hope the hon. happened to FDI into the UK? The flows fell at a slower Gentleman would take an interest in. FDI flows fell by rate than in Europe, at 36%. So much for the negative 19% globally and by 73% in continental Europe. What effects of Brexit uncertainty.

ORAL ANSWERS

Tuesday 3 September 2019

Col. No. Col. No. FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE .... 1 FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE— Amazon Forest Fires...... 6 continued Defence and Security Equipment International Leaving the EU: Diplomacy...... 13 Exhibition...... 16 Leaving the EU: Gibraltar ...... 11 Hong Kong ...... 8 Topical Questions ...... 16 Kashmir...... 1 Zimbabwe ...... 11 WRITTEN STATEMENTS

Tuesday 3 September 2019

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, ENERGY AND INDUSTRIAL EDUCATION...... 3WS STRATEGY ...... 1WS Education Funding ...... 3WS British Steel...... 1WS Clean Steel Fund and Low Carbon Hydrogen ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS. 4WS Production Fund...... 2WS Summer Flooding and Reservoir Review ...... 4WS DEFENCE...... 3WS Reserve Forces and Cadets Association External TRANSPORT ...... 6WS Security Team Report 2019...... 3WS HS2...... 6WS PETITIONS

Tuesday 3 September 2019

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, ENERGY AND INDUSTRIAL PRESENTED PETITION ...... 1P STRATEGY ...... 1P Proposed Strategic Rail Freight Interchanges Heywood Post Office ...... 1P south of Northampton ...... 1P FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 3P Ceasefire in Yemen...... 3P MINISTERIAL CORRECTION

Tuesday 3 September 2019

Col. No. INTERNATIONAL TRADE ...... 1MC UK Trade and Investment Strategy...... 1MC No proofs can be supplied. Corrections that Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked on a copy of the daily Hansard - not telephoned - and must be received in the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

not later than Tuesday 10 September 2019

STRICT ADHERENCE TO THIS ARRANGEMENT GREATLY FACILITATES THE PROMPT PUBLICATION OF BOUND VOLUMES

Members may obtain excerpts of their speeches from the Official Report (within one month from the date of publication), by applying to the Editor of the Official Report, House of Commons. Volume 664 Tuesday No. 338 3 September 2019

CONTENTS

Tuesday 3 September 2019

List of Government and Principal Officers of the House

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 1] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Office

New Member [Col. 23]

G7 Summit [Col. 24] Statement—(Prime Minister)

Leaving the EU: Preparations [Col. 49] Statement—(Michael Gove)

Education Funding [Col. 65] Statement—(Gavin Williamson)

European Union (Withdrawal) [Col. 76] Application for emergency debate under Standing Order No. 24

Clean Air [Col. 78] Motion for leave to bring in Bill—(Chris Philp)—agreed to Bill presented, and read the First time

European Union (Withdrawal) [Col. 81] Emergency debate under Standing Order No. 24 Motion—(Sir Oliver Letwin)—on a Division, agreed to

Sheep Farming: No-deal EU Exit [Col. 143] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall EU Settlement Scheme: Looked-after Children and Care Leavers [Col. 1WH] Kettering General Hospital Urgent Care Hub [Col. 25WH] School Funding: East Anglia [Col. 32WH] Hull’s Maritime City Bid [Col. 53WH] High-income Child Benefit Charge [Col. 60WH] General Debates

Written Statements [Col. 1WS]

Petitions [Col. 1P] Presented Petition Observations

Ministerial Correction [Col. 1MC]

Written Answers to Questions [The written answers can now be found at http://www.parliament.uk/writtenanswers]