The Importance of Being Liberal Malcolm Rutherford and Martin Jacques talk to the leader of the Liberal Party about the rise of the Alliance and the problems it now faces.

MARXISM TODAY OCTOBER 1986 As far as modern Liberalism was concerned, Keynes and Beveridge were the father figures. Not Adam Smith, or anybody else who might have been around You've just celebrated10 years as leader Liberals in Scotland. But it was also At that stage I was therefore much of the Liberal Party, and something over still very much the old Liberal Party, a more interested in issues than in 20 years as an MP. How do you see what's party of the Celtic fringes. Its upsurge political machinery. That's why, very happened in those 20 years compared with was focused very much on the disen- early on in my time in parliament, I got your expectations when you first started? chantment of the remoter parts of the involved in the kind of issues where one When I first started I didn't really have country - Devon and Cornwall and the could work effectively with people much in the way of expectations. I Highlands - from over-centralised gov- across the party spectrum - the anti- came into the House through a series of ernment, rather than from any general apartheid movement, the abortion law pieces of good fortune at a very early upward movement of a more relevant reform, the Shelter campaign. Things age. The Tweeddale, Ettrick and political philosophy. Even though there like that rather than the Liberal Party Lauderdale seat became vacant be- had been signs of that around the as such. cause the candidate fell out with the Orpington period in 1962, it had faded And the resignation of Jo Grimond in constituency association. I was moved away again by 1964. When I came in I early 1967 obviously disappointed me from Edinburgh in here, got to know brought the number of Liberal MPs up because I was very much a Grimond the area and obtained a reasonably to 10. I thought that in itself was a disciple. It just didn't seem as if there good result in the 1964 election. Then major achievement. I didn't know what was any particular upsurge for the the sitting MP died two months after- the prospects for the Liberal Party Liberal Party at that time, what with his wards, so we had a sudden by-election would be. And there was no sign of departure and then when we didn't do and then I was in the House. anything dramatic happening on the very well in the 1970 election, falling It was a reasonably good time for the scale we've seen today. back to six MPs.

26 MARXISM TODAY OCTOBER 1986 Did you think about quitting then? You belong to a coalition now. Party in Orpington at the time of the No, no. Yes I do, but it's a coalition with a by-election. He was typical of a certain common purpose. That's the differ- school of Liberal who abounded in the Or changing party? ence. party at that time. It was one of Jo No. The only time I ever got near to Grimond's achievements that he contemplating changing party was To what extent do you still see the Liberal changed the tone and posture of the back in my student days, because I was Party as a party associated with the party and made it clear that as far as very impressed by Gaitskell on a visit tradition of Keynes and Beveridge? modern Liberalism was concerned, that he made to Edinburgh University. I see it totally as identified with them. Keynes and Beveridge were the father But my basic objection to the Labour And I say that because there are others, figures. Not Adam Smith, or anybody Party at that time, which I suppose has not so much now but certainly in my else who might have been around. remained until this day, was that it earlier days in the party, who saw the didn't seem to me to represent a foundation of the Liberal Party not in So how, in retrospect, do you see the coherent philosophy. It had two com- terms of Keynes and Beveridge at all, development of the postwar Liberal Party? pletely different and incompatible ele- but of earlier figures. Indeed, we lost What were the key moments? ments within it. And while I identified people from the Liberal Party who In the postwar period the Liberal Party myself roughly with one element, I described themselves as neo-liberals, was a complete mess. In the decade didn't see much joy in joining an of the sort of Thatcherite school. I was 1945-55 the parliamentary Liberal Par- organisation where one would be quite reading the other day that Arthur ty, represented by a dozen or so, were clearly in the minority element. Seldon was involved in the Liberal regularly divided in opposite lobbies.

27 MARXISM TODAY OCTOBER 1986 There was no cohesion of purpose, and that it was absolutely fundamental to possibility of forming some sort of people were drifting off into the Tory Liberal philosophy. It was just that breakaway from the Labour Party, Party or the Labour Party. All the nobody had actually practised it. It was lesser lights like Tom Ellis and Neville Liberal Party was, was the left-over there in theory all the way along - that Sanderson. Immediately after the 1979 remains of a once-great party. It didn't we believe in decentralisation, we election, Roy Jenkins, then an EEC seem to have any relevance to modern believe in people having more local commissioner, spoke to me about his political thought. The fact that we now control over their lives, and community re-entry problem after Brussels. He have mass support as a party is largely politics was a way of starting to get that said he would like to form something due to the foundation that Jo Grimond across. new, and what did I think about this. I laid. He turned it round in the decade A large element in it at the beginning, was very encouraging because I be- that he was leader, even though he and I would say still today, is that it was lieved that if people formed some new didn't actually enjoy the fruits of it in also a way of counteracting the advan- organisation to work in parallel with his time as leader. He made it forward tage enjoyed by the mass organisations the Liberal Party, that would have more looking, not backward looking, a party of the Conservative and Labour parties, impact than the Liberal Party gaining which was analysing Britain's prob- to start building up from grassroots the odd two or three new recruits, lems in terms of the decade or two level, in particular in local government. however distinguished. It wouldn't ahead, and not hankering after the past That's had its pluses and its minuses. have the catalytic effect that forming glories of Liberalism. It's often been quite a headache. But it something new would have. So I has unquestionably produced the sort certainly encouraged him to form Very early on Do you see the Liberal Party as being of hard backbone to the party that we something new. He also said that if strongly attached to many of the values have now. nothing new got off the ground, he in my time in didn't rule out the possibility of joining parliament, I associated with the period of consensus prior to 1979, for which in many ways the After the Grimond era, the Liberal Party the Liberal Party as an individual got involved intellectual inspiration was Keynes and experienced several breakthroughs. The without playing an active part in in the kind of Beveridge? I'm thinking of full employ- vote in the February 1974 election was one politics. issues where ment, a rather larger and more active of them. You would agree with that? one could public sector, and so on. Yes. But the danger with that was that The next great stage was the breakaway of Yes I do, and this is reflected in the it was rather Orpington plus. It was the Shirley Williams, David Owen and Bill work kind of positions that we've taken on anti-Conservative tide at the end of a Rodgers. effectively votes in parliament, even during the period of Conservative government, That's right. I actually had less contact with people Thatcher period. It was reflected cer- which it was becoming very easy for with them. They at that time had the tainly in the time of the Lib-Lab pact. In the Liberals to pick up on. The differ- gang of three and they were writing across the other words we are not hostile, for ence, though, was that in the run-up to their own open letters to The Guardian political example, to the state sector. Some of the 1974 election, the community poli- and so on. But I think the three of them spectrum the older Liberals would criticise us for tics strategy had been working along did not appreciate - and certainly that and say you must reduce the state with the anti-Tory tidal wave so that Shirley has admitted this subsequently sector. Well, all right, there are parts of there was rather more solidity to it. - the potential the Liberal Party had to the state sector that can be usefully Where it came apart in my view, was offer. In fact they were remarkably transferred to the private sector. But that once you'd got that far, and you ignorant of what Liberal Party policies as a matter of doctrine, I do not share were faced with a difficult parliamen- were. Roy did appreciate it because of the Thatcher view that this is a tary position through 1974 with the his historical associations with the desirable end in itself and that some- narrow majority, then the other ele- party, and also because he had been out how it creates a better society. I think ment in the party's thinking was not at of the country and was able to look the underlying philosophy of Keynes all clear - there was no coalition objectively at what was going on, and Beveridge is remarkably in tune strategy, there was no idea as to how whereas the others had been working in with some of the policies of today on you got from a soft tide of support, with the Labour government. issues like employment, social security rudimentary organisation in some They weren't really thinking in terms and the health service. places, to the next stage. And it was of the Liberal Party as being at all that which was missing. important in their scenario. It was all to One of the things that is very striking We really didn't address those ques- do with divisions and redivisions within about the Liberal Party in the last 20 tions when we went into the October the Labour Party. So their perspective years, starting with the Grimond period 1974 election, which in my view is why was a bit different. But certainly the and the development of the Liberal Party we fell back a bit. Because all we were fact that he and they were able to get as a party left of centre, has been its able to say was onwards and upwards - together meant that the thing really attachment to a series of quite radical give us a few more votes and some went off with a bang. But I had no causes - community politics, moral issues more seats and something will happen. discussions with the other three at that like abortion, and anti-apartheid - while And when asked what the something time that I can recall. there is now a strong green and CND was, the stock answer was 'we'll have a presence within the party both at a local Liberal government.' And they'd say Which brings us to the position of the level and at your assembly. How do you 'well, wait a minute, how do you go Alliance now. How do you see it? see the Liberal Party as a political animal? from whatever it was we had -14 MPs - We're in a remarkably good position to It's always been a difficult political to being a Liberal government?' The move on. If you look at the opinion polls animal, precisely because of the dif- thing lacked credibility. and local government results taken ferent strands within it. Moral issues together, month by month, we have had are not strictly party issues. Things The next two breakthroughs were presum- a consistently higher level of support in like abortion, homosexual law reform ably the Lib-Lab pact and then the this parliament than we had in the last and the abolition of capital punishment Alliance. parliament. What we had in the last were going through at the time I came I wouldn't put the Lib-Lab pact into the parliament was the advantage of those into the House. Liberals were in the same category. I don't think that was a tremendous peaks - at Warrington and main on the side of reform, but they breakthrough, except in forcing the Crosby. But they were peaks. They were not party issues. And there were Liberal Party to face up to some were like the old Liberal pattern - some some Liberals who were against all awkward questions. great publicity and by-election success these things. But in the main I would and then down again. Whereas what say these reforms were in tune with What was your relationship to the we've had in this parliament is a steady Liberal philosophy. formation of the SDP? Were you in favour holding on in there. As to the development of community of it? politics, again I would have thought Some people did talk to me about the There is a new factor in this parliament

28 MARXISM TODAY OCTOBER 1986 compared with the last though. The and the Liberal Party rather closer to parties about the shape of the organisa- Labour Party not only looks much less Kinnock, with David Owen and some of the tion which we might have after the divided, indeed very much more united, Social Democrats on the other hand rather election. If we were going to start that than in 1981-3, but also under Kinnock's closer to Thatcher? hare running, we should have done so a leadership it's occupying more of the This has become a bit of a caricature of couple of years ago and gone through ground which previously was appealed to the Alliance. all the torture of discussion, rewriting by the Alliance. constitutions and so on. I wouldn't I agree with part of that, but not all of But there is something in it. myself have been averse to doing that it. First of all, the advantage that the No, I don't think there is anything in it but David Owen certainly would have Labour Party got from the change of really. If there is anything in it, it's been, and it takes two to agree and I can leadership was a temporary advantage. purely a question of style and tempera- quite see that if I were a Social If I were in Neil Kinnock's shoes, the ment rather than substance. I mean Democrat I might have agreed with thing that would disappoint me now is what sort of issues are we talking David Owen. You don't found a new that having got that advantage, they about? party in 1981 in order to knock it on the haven't been able to sustain it. If you head three years later. are hoping to be in at the next election, Market economics. you've got to show that, before it As I pointed out after David Owen But can you knock it on the head six years arrives, you're running streets ahead of made that great speech about the social later? the government, because at the election market economy, if I'd made it nobody If by that time the role of the individual itself that gap tends to close. Now the would have paid the slightest attention, Labour Party isn't in that position. because we've always believed in the Now I suspect that the departure of social market economy. It was only those who left the Labour Party to form remarkable because he was a former the SDP has had a more debilitating member of the Labour Party. He's not a effect on the Labour Party than was free market economist in the Thatcher- realised at the time by any of us - ite sense at all, and to suggest that is to either in the Labour Party or outside it. traduce what he actually believes in. It has actually lost its broad coalition appeal, however hard Neil Kinnock One very noticeable difference is in the tries - and he has been trying very hard nature of the two parties, for example - to restore that position. It's very your assembly compared to the SDP difficult for Kinnock to persuade peo- conference. ple that the Labour Party really is the Yes, I accept that. But that's what I'm old coalition you loved, when in fact saying. It's a question of style and you've got the real Labour Party on the temperament rather than substance. ground doing some quite extraordinary There is certainly nothing that leads things, not just Militant, but the rows me to think that the policy orientation over reselection and the continuing of the SDP and the policy orientation of party is much less than the role of the adoption of slates of parliamentary the Liberal Party identifies us in Alliance as such, then yes I think you candidates of a more left variety. I different ways with the other two can. We have created a new political think the electorate's perception is that parties. I just don't accept that at all. I entity. That certainly wasn't the case the Labour Party is not the same think it's a false assumption which we two years ago. It may well be the case Labour Party that they used to know. may be partly guilty ourselves of by the time we've gone through another having allowed to gather ground, be- election together. But although my But a Labour government under Neil cause it keeps getting repeated. It does personal inclination is to think that Kinnock would probably be in many ways happen that I'm personally very anta- probably the parties will decide on quite a moderate affair. There's a gonistic to Thatcherism, and for that some kind of union or merger after the difference between public perceptions, matter to Mrs Thatcher as a politician next election, I am certainly not wholly and any time lag that might exist in for whom I don't have a great deal of committed to that view myself, even relation to that, and what the Labour time. I happen to like Neil Kinnock. But though it's my own inclination, because Party under Neil Kinnock might actually that has nothing to do with the policies I want to see how we get on through the do. There was a stage when Thatcherism which the two of them pursue. David period up to and during the next begat a very radical left-leaning Labour Owen on the other hand ... general election campaign and its Party but that phase seems to have come aftermath. to an end. You must recognise that? He likes Mrs Thatcher... Yes, if there were a Labour govern- I'm not saying that he likes her but he It is likely that the Liberals will continue to ment tomorrow it would possibly be a has a certain admiration for her which I have more parliamentary seats than the rather tame affair, except in some don't share and we've discussed it SDP just because of the nature of the areas. I don't know how they're going to often. But to go from that, from these constituencies where you are contesting. resolve the whole question of their statements, to say that therefore there Does that make very much difference to foreign and defence policies, given the is a sort of political orientation which is the balance of power within the Alliance? party's present commitments. In that different is wrong. You can have No it doesn't, because the parties have area they are in real trouble because I personal feelings about other poiliti- different strengths in different areas. find in my conversations with members cians without necessarily dividing on It is true that the Liberal Party has the of the shadow cabinet very different ideological or policy lines. stronger parliamentary representation views as to what will actually happen. and, as you say, probably will have on Will the Americans be told to remove After the election, presumably there will most given scenarios. That is also all their bases from this country or not? have to be some sort of redefinition of the generally true in local government. It What's the effect going to be on NATO? relationship between the parties in the has a bigger membership in the coun- Certainly our European and American Alliance. You've spoken about union. It try. It's got all these on the plus side. allies do not share the assumption that could be a formal merger. How do you see But the SDP has got other assets. It all will be well if there's a Labour that going? does have figures of substantial min- government. I've been very cautious, and will isterial experience which is very im- continue to be, about trying to deter- portant for the credibility of the whole Equally though, people talk about dissent mine now what the pattern will be after exercise. They've also got their own within the Alliance on defence. Isn't this the election because I genuinely don't policy-making machinery which is a expressive of a wider cleavage? Aren't you want to start a great debate in the two model of how a party ought to set about

29 MARXISM TODAY OCTOBER 1986 making its policy, in a way that the but which are now far worse than they the allocation, which is a major step Liberal Party doesn't. I think they've were before she started. forward. It was precisely what I call got a lot to teach us on that. And they community politics, very exciting. also have, because they're new, a great One of the most interesting contributions But it does not seem to me to deal in terms of modern techniques. We the Liberal Party has made to British represent the mainstream of what the all laugh about the credit card party, political debate is around decentralisation; Labour Party is doing. In fact you can but there are great assets to the credit Scottish, Welsh and English parliaments, pick that out as an isolated example. If card party and great advantages to regional government and PR - if you like, you go to Edinburgh, which is a local their system of direct communication, the undermining of the unitary state. How authority run by the Labour Party, you mail order politics, use of computers central do you see this question in terms of won't find anything like that around. and so on, which we shouldn't sneer at the Alliance's appeal and approach? And this is what I'm saying, the because it is complementary to, not a It is pretty crucial because it is one standard Labour approach to housing is substitute for, the kind of doorstep thing I would say that marks us out as 'well, we will go on building more politics that we have. being quite different in approach from houses, telling people what's good for both the Conservative and Labour them, providing houses whether they Since 1979 we've had Thatcher as prime parties. Whatever their ideological di- like them or not.' And I just find it so minister and Thatcherism has held the vides may be, they are still basically different from our approach, which is initiative on the political stage. What's concerned with running, in their diffe- to create tenants' co-operatives, hous- your assessment of Thatcherism and its rent ways, the centralised state. We are ing associations, share ownership strongly decentralist, and we have done schemes - a whole plethora of weapons quite a lot of work on this strand - not you can use, all of which are designed just in terms of the mechanics of to give individuals more control over devolved government, but of all the their own lives, and therefore more associated problems that go with it. pride and say in how their own community is run. These kind of ideas have had quite an impact on sections of the Labour Party, for What do you think the Left is? Do you use instance the GLC and Sheffield. the term? What do you see it to mean? Absolutely. No, I don't tend to use the term because the Left is a whole range of things. If You recognise this. we use the abusive term, the loony Left, I do. Towards the end of the GLC, even I regard that as the Militant tendency though we didn't agree with a lot of its and various other groups and even policies and directions, we found sections of the parliamentary Labour ourselves increasingly recognising that Party, who would not identify them- there was a common cause, that the selves with Militant tendency, but who basic approach Livingstone was taking see politics purely in terms of their own impact on British politics? to the government of London was identification with a particular section There are some limited aspects of something to which we were very of the population. One of the things that Thatcherism that were inevitable and sympathetic. That's why we ended up motivates me very strongly as a Liberal probably necessary. For example, the campaigning very strongly against the and against participation in the Labour balance of power between organised abolition of the GLC, even though it was Party, even from my student days, is trade unionism and the rest of society slightly politically embarrassing. that I think the perpetuation of class has been tilted away, not from trade politics has actually been an acute unionism, that's probably the wrong The GLC was part of the rise, within the disadvantage to Britain in relation to word, but certainly the trade union Labour Left, of an anti-statism which the Americans, the Japanese and most barons. Their power has been reduced previously was quite alien to it and the of the Europeans. It's something pecul- over a period and that is something Labour Party. iar to us, a pseudo-class war to which a which I think is right. Because you've My difference, though, is that it isn't great deal of the Left subscribes. got to have checks and balances in really anti-statism, it is local statism. I society the whole time. The power they would argue from what I've seen - I'm What is your attitude towards CND? had was increasing, and had to be not knowledgeable on London, but I At the beginning I was quite sympathe- diminished. That is one aspect of have looked quite closely at tic because then it was a campaign for Thatcherism - even though it was done Merseyside because we have a strong nuclear disarmament. But over the in a rather confrontational and aggres- political interest there - that I can years - I was never actually a member sive style, and in my view has gone too pinpoint fundamental differences of of it so I can't pinpoint when and how far, as in GCHQ - that has probably left opinion between Liberals and commit- this happened - it went from being a something behind that is valuable. ted socialists. If you take the issue of broadly-based movement concerned But that's about the only thing I can housing, as perhaps the one that affects with the issues of nuclear disarma- think of on the plus side. There are so most people directly ... ment, to becoming much more focused many minuses to Thatcherism that I on a campaign for a particular route to regard it, and I hope history will judge Liverpool is a bad example though, nuclear disarmament. That's where it it, to have been in many ways a rather because the politics of the Liverpool went wrong. destructive period for British society. Labour Party have been very heavily But, although I don't agree with the It's been a period when the so-called influenced by Militant. The GLC and actual policy of CND, I've never shared slimming-down process in industry, Sheffield are a different ball-game the views of some people in the Labour part of which again I accept as altogether. Party, the Tories and the Alliance, who inevitable, has gone too far; and the I remember visiting what, I thought, denounce CND. Although no doubt it lack of any effort centrally, using the was one of the most exciting develop- has within it people who would exploit sophisticated economic power of gov- ments I've seen in housing just outside CND for other purposes, I don't believe ernment, to try to redress imbalances Bradford - and it's true it was under a that it's got a hotline to the Kremlin. It's in our society and in particular to Labour controlled authority - where full of people who are concerned about tackle the question of unemployment, they had taken a couple of the old tower what is a most serious issue. And the has been a mistake. And I think a blocks and replanned the ground floors fact that they exist and have kept particular scar that will be left behind and turned them over to tenants' raising the issue is for the health of is the divisions geographically within control; not only tenants' control of the democratic politics. Coupled with the the country, which were always there, administration, but tenants' control of fact of course, that as far as the Liberal

31 MARXISM TODAY OCTOBER 1986 Party in particular is concerned, there very much along party lines, many than abortion, which was a relatively has always been within it a strong perfectly respectable Conservatives small issue. But inasmuch as I tend to strand of politics sympathetic to CND are very concerned as the dumping be lumped in with the permissive because the Liberal Party has always issue shows. society, I certainly can't escape from had within it historically a very strong that, and my own votes on that and on Quaker, non-conformist, pacifist tradi- Are you in favour of phasing out existing other issues around the time were tion, and into that CND quite naturally nuclear power stations? certainly all in the same direction. I fits. I've never taken a sort of deroga- To take the nearer issue of Torness, think morality is not something that a tory view of CND at all. I think it's just up the road, which is due to come government should try and determine. perfectly legitimate both as a national into commission right now, we would But I would like to see marriage campaign and as a section within the say, 'Right let's stop'. Because we have made more difficult, if that were Liberal Party. other power stations in Scotland which possible. You can't do it by law. But I are moth-balled, new ones, and there's think nowadays people tend to rush too There is now a movement rather like CND no reason why we shouldn't moth-ball a casually into marriage or into what developing against civil nuclear power. nuclear one rather than a conventional they think will be long-term rela- This is clearly going to be one of the one. tionships in which they bring up biggest questions, not only in this country children, and which they then break off but in most industrial societies. And what about the existing operating if they find the going gets rough. The We in the Liberal Party have never nuclear power stations? number of broken homes and the found this a problem. We have been The older ones certainly ought to be very sceptical about the development being phased out. I don't see any great of nuclear power from the beginning. difference between our view and the Certainly on military nuclear power we one that the TUC has just adopted on took the position under Jo Grimond's that. leadership in the mid-50s that Britain should not be a military nuclear power. I can't imagine that David Owen is as We took a similarly sceptical approach sceptical about nuclear power as you are. about civil nuclear power. Have you discussed this with him? We regard nuclear power as being I think he's now much more in tune the fuel of last resort. In other words with what I've been saying on it than he we're not prepared to say 'we're was. anti-nuclear, we will never have nuc- lear power, it is an absolutely fun- What do you think the British government damental position that we don't have it? should do in relation to South Africa? That is not our position. But a lot I have always been in favour of more has to be done on the conserva- sanctions, and not for the reasons that tion of energy than is being done. Much Margaret Thatcher goes on about it. now needs to be done in terms of The issue to me is not whether number of children who don't have a natural sources of energy. We accept sanctions work or not, but whether we stable family background is very sad. I there's more oil still to be exploited and as a civilised country are prepared to feel quite strongly about that. But I similarly much more coal. Only at the conduct normal commercial relations take a classic liberal position on this. I back of all that, I think, is there a case with a government of this kind. I think don't think, as someone once said, that for Britain considering nuclear power, the answer should be no. And therefore the state has any role in the bedrooms meanwhile nuclear research should anything that we can do to make it clear of the nation. continue. that their policies are fundamentally unacceptable, such as the cessation of Do you identify yourself with the trend So if the government were to commission a air links, is justified. The secondary towards greater women's rights. What do PWR after the publication of the Sizewell question of whether 'they work', in the you think of feminism? report, you would oppose it? sense of bringing about the desired Yes I do, although again I find a lot We would cancel it if we got to that changes, is to me a lesser issue, and irritating about the sort of Private Eye stage. therefore we're not even arguing it on 'Wimmin' column - that kind of femin- the same plane as the present govern- ism is ludicrous. I even find petty The Labour Party might well do the same. ment. It is very important that Western things difficult, like the complete Could you envisage an alliance between the governments make clear their disasso- messing up of the English language and Alliance and the Labour Party on this ciation by being prepared to take suggesting that certain words are issue? specific steps, which may cost us a bit sexist, and you've got to have If you are putting to me the proposition as well, in order to demonstrate sup- spokespersons and ... that there might be an Alliance/Labour port for the majority populations. government of some kind after the next That's been my attitude all along. Have you started to use that vocabulary? election, then I've no doubt that on that No, I won't do it. I just don't. The party issue we would probably have no You were responsible for what became knows this because it operates quite difficulty. But the difference would be popularly known in the 60s as the Steel strongly in the Liberal Party and they that we would not be developing an bill on abortion, which was one of the say that people are now chairs, they're energy policy which was going to leave central legislative measures in the liber- no longer chairmen. I have no objection Mr Scargill rubbing his hands with alisation period of the 60s, helping to to a word such as president, which has glee, and increasing his power base. usher in a new pattern of sexual and got no sexist connotation, but why must How we get round that I'm not quite cultural behaviour. Looking back on it we change the English language. sure at the moment. now, how do you see the Abortion Act and But I don't actually think the Tories what do you feel about the trend towards a Is there another major social reform that are daft enough to give the go-ahead to more liberal moral climate? needs to come to complete the cycle of Sizewell between now and the next Although the Abortion Act tended to be reforms - we've had abortion, we've had election. Because, since Chernobyl, part of that era, it would be wrong to the relaxation of homosexuality laws. Are public opinion has changed and the attribute too much of that trend to it, there any more? Or have all those great perception inside the Conservative because it also coincided with the reforms now taken place? Party has changed too. This is not an development of the pill, the coil and all I think they have probably all taken issue - unlike military nuclear power - the rest of it, which had proportionately place. I don't think there is anything which divides people in the country far more impact on people's lifestyles like that still to come. •

33 MARXISM TODAY OCTOBER 1986