1774 1774ASSEMBLY]

The petition conforms to the Standing Orders of Oi-attatine Aueemtblg the Legislative Assembly and I have certified ac- cordingly. Wednesday. 26 September 1984 The SPEAKER: I direct that the petition be brought to the Table of the House. THE SPEAKER (Mr Harman) took the Chair (See petition No. 56.) at 2.15 p.m.. and read prayers. SMALL BUSINESS GUARANTEES BILL PORNOGRAPHY: VIDEO FILMS Second Reading Display itnd Satle: Pet it ion MR BRYCE (Ascot-Deputy Premier) [2.20 p.m.):!I move- MR GORDON HILL (Helena) t2.16 p.m.]: I have at petition signed by 19 585 Western That the Bill be now read a second time. Australians which reads as follows- The purpose of this Bill is to provide authority for the execution of guarantees for the repayment of We. the undersigned. wish to regi ster our loans to owners of small businesses. protest of the Giovernment of Western Australia's interference in our freedom of It gives me great pleasure to present this Bill to choice by their decision to ban the distri- the House. This Government's commitment to the bution, sale and hire in W.A. of those video profitability and growth of small business has been tapes passed by the State Advisory Com- widely understood and accepted. It is central to mittee on Publications as a restricted article the Government's first priority of employment as fromt September I st 1984. We believe that growth and economic development. this video laped material should continue to The scheme provided for in this Bill is a signifi- be available to those who wish to view it. cant initiative in a series of policy measures aimed at creating the environment in which small The petition conforms to the Standing Orders of businesses in Western Australia can prosper and the Legislative Assembly and I have certified ac- grow. cord ingly. The Small Business Development Corporation The SPEAKER: I direct that the petition be is the centrepiece of this series of initiatives, and brought to the Table of the House. since it was established on I January this year the (See pet it ion No. 55.) response from small businesses has indicated that it was an initiative that was long overdue. PORNOGRAPHY: VIDEO FILMS The corporation is currently handling nearly I 000 inquiries a month and is providing an Bainning: Petition invaluable source of free and confidential business MR COYNE (M urehison- Eyre) [2.17 p.m.]: I advice and information, as well as operating as a have a petition signed by 814 Western Australians first point of reference for advice about manage- which reads as follows- ment, financial and legal services, and Govern- ment regulations, procedures and policies to small The Honourable the Speaker and Members business proprietors throughout Western of the Legislative Assembly of the Parliament Australia. of Western Australia in Parliament In addition, the corporation provides advice and assetmbled information to the Government on a wide range of We. the undersigned commend the State issues which affect small business. The corpor Government for banning the sale and hire of ation has, for example. assisted in the development X rated Videos in Western Australia and of this guarantees scheme and will be the principle plead that the Government will not bend to point of contact once the scheme is operational. renewed pressures to reverse that decision. The corporation is well advanced with its major We further pray that the government will study of the small business sector in WA and. ensure that R rated Videos will be more among other projects, is developing a proposal for vigorously controlled and that all Videos will the establishment of a micro-computer demon- be classified. stration centre. Your petitioners therefore humbly pray The success of the Small Business Development that you will give this matter earnest con- Corporation enables the Government to keep in sideration and your petitioners, as in duty touch with small business and it also allows small bound. will ever pray. business to keep in touch with Government. fWednesday. 26 September 1984]177 1775

The result is sensitive and carefully targeted and Burke Governments have been shown to de- Government policies, of which this Bill is but one. liver that sound economic management. which meet the real needs of the small business l am waiting to hear the "Hear, hears" from the comnmunity. other side. As at result of reresentatiions received from a Mr Court: You will be waiting a long time. broad cross-section of the small business sector. I will shortly introduce to this House legislation Mr BRYCE: Economic growth in Australia be- designed wo eliminate the most unfair provisions of tween the June quarters of 1983 and 1984 was existing commercial tenancy arrangements. The over 10 per cent, making Australia the fastest Commercial Tenancy (Retail Shops) Agreements growing economy in the western world. Non-farm Bill is the result of at long and careful period of growth is anticipated to be of the order of five per consultation with all affected sectors of the busi- cent this financial year. ness; comnmunity. I am confident that the proposed Inflation fell during the last financial year by legislation will nice[ with widespread approval and 6.5 per cent and the rise in the Consumer Price will substantially improve the bottom line of se- Index in the current financial year is expected to curity for smnall business tenants in Western be just a little over five per cent. The message Australia. about the Australian economy is clear-profits are In other mecasures. the Government has made recovering, interest rates are falling, and business significant progress in reducing the real level of investment is picking up. Recent statistics indicate water rates for commercial consumers through that retail sales are also improving. progressive reductions in water allowances and, This, then, is the context in which I turn to the consequently. reduced waler rate charges. Over details of the Small Business Guarantees Bill. the consumption years 1983-84 and 1984-85, 75 As I have said, the purpose of the Bill is to per cent of business/commercial properties will provide authority for the execution of guarantees receive the full benefit of at 25 per cent real re- for the repayment of loans made to owners of dluction in wvater rates, and about 85 per cent will small businesses. The proposed scheme resembles pay less in total water rates and water usage one established by legislation in New South charges than they would have paid under the old Wales. s yst emi. The main features of the Bill arc as follows: Mr Menrsaros: You must admit we started the Clause 3 defines "small business" as a business system. enterprise that, firstly, is carried on for the pur- Mr BRYCE: F-or the information of the mem- poses of manufacturing or processing goods or for ber for Floreat. let mecrenphasise that the A LP, any other prescribed purpose. both inside and outside this Chamber, committed For the purposes of determining the eligibility itself to the principle of a pay-for-use, pay-for- of the applicant's activities, regulations to the connection water systeni somec years ago. proposed Act will detail specific industry classifi- Mr Mensaros: You can never do it 100 per cent. cations in accordance with the Australian Stan- dard Industrial Classification (ASIC) published Mr BRYCE: Exactly. by the Australian Bureau of Statistics. specific These substantial improvements are preliminary reference to the ASIC industry classifications in to the introduction of a full pay-for-service/ pay- the regulations eliminates the need to define eli- for-use system of water charges for small gible activities by way of a wordy definition which businesses, may be open to interpretation and legal argument. Payroll tax concessions in 1983-84 have relieved Industries embraced under the scheme include an estimated additional I 100 small businesses manufacturing, processing, mining and mineral from this lax. I an, confident that this year's exploration, construction, transport and storage. Budget will see a number of additional measures the wholesale and retail trade and a wide range of aimed at increasing the profitability of this sector. service industries. Almost all trading businesses All of these specific treasures are taking place will be eligible, with the exception of agriculture. within the wider context of economic recovery. fishing, forestry investment businesses, financial Small businesses do not need Government hand- institutions, hospitals, and a number of personal outs: wvhat they, require from Government is sound services. economic management which creates economic Specifically excluded also will be a business growth, brings down interest rates, reduces in- which would qualify for loan or grant assistance flation and creates jobs and demand for their under section 14(3) (in) of the Western products aind services. The policies of the Hawke Australian Tourism Commission Act 1983. 1776 1776[ASSEMBLY]

The second part of the -small business" defi- implementing the scheme through the trading nition in clause 3 refers to a business enterprise banks and guarantees will normally be available that in the opinion of the Minister for Industrial only through this source. However, consideration Development- may be given to providing guarantees to other (i) is a small business enterprise: financial institutions in special circumstances. (ii) is not a subsidiary of. or does not form Clause 4(2) restricts the amount of guarantee part of a larger enterprise: and assistance for each applicant to an amount (iii) is managed personally by at least one of prescribed in the regulations. It is proposed to the persons entitled to a share of the limit the guarantee assistance to $100000 with profits of the enterprise. terms up to 10 years. Guarantee assistance will normally be restricted to term loans or overdraft This definition is reasonably similar to the defi- accommodation and up to 100 per cent of the loan nition of "smiall business" included in the Small may be guaranteed. The interest rate charged and Business Development Corporation Act 1983, and the terms of lending must be acceptable to the I believe provides sonic flexibility to the Minister Minister. administering the scheme. Clause 4(l1) states that the Minister 'nay execute a guarantee in favour of Clause 4(3) limits the total amount of guaran- a lender for a loan made to the owner of a small tee assistance which may be provided under the business, provided he is satisfied that- scheme, excluding guarantees no longer in force, to such amount as the Treasurer may from time to (a) the sole ground for the prior rejection of time declare by notice published in the Govern- the loan proposal by the lender was the mend Gazetifc. insufficiency of the security proposed by the borrower and in all other respects the Clause 5(2)(a) gives the Minister authority to lender accepted the loan proposal as a direct the lender to take such securities as required viable proposition: and from the applicant for repayment of the loan. (b) the loan mioneys are required for capital Clause 5(2)(b) states the guarantee shall not be expenditure or working capital For the enforceable against the Minister until the lender establishment of a small business or the has taken appropriate recovery action under all expansion or diversification of an other securities held by the lender in respect of the existing small business. guaranteed debt. Therefore, the State would only Guarantees will not be available- be called upon to meet a shortfall-if any-on the guaranteed loan, in the event of the failure of the for the purchase or takeover of an existing business and after all other securities held by the business: lender are realised. to refinance existing debts: The operation of the scheme is as Follows- to overcome a short-term liquidity prob- Applicants present a detailed proposal for a lem: or loan to a bank or financial institution if the applicant has adequate business or personal assets to enable the loan to be If the proposal is not approved, solely on obtained under the lender's usual guidelines. the ground of insufficient security, the appli- cant may then complete and submit to the Other criteria of a general nature not included in bank or financial institution a form of appli- the Bill, but which will be considered when cation for a small business guarantee. The assessing applications for assistance include form of application will be available from the whether- banks, or the Small Business Development ihe proposal will mean a net increase in Corporation. employnient opportunities: The bank or lending institution assesses the the applicant is viable and capable of application in respect of the eligibility cri- servicing existing borrowings and the new teria, and if satisfied completes an appropri- borrowings requested: and ate application form for guarantee assistance. the business owner has a reasonable level of This form, together with a copy of the appli- equity in the business, having regard to the cation received from the applicant is circumustances. forwarded to the Small Business Develop- Although clause 4(l1) refers to the execution of a ment Corporation. guarantee in favour of a bank or another person or Department of Industrial Development body of persons, whether corporate or evaluation officers attached to the Small unincorporate. emphasis will be given to Business Development Corporation will [ Wednesday, 26 September 19841 177777

examine applications received from the banks MR MENSAROS (Floreat) 12.38 p.m.]: The or lending institutions to see whether they member for Vasse has adequately dealt with the compl% with Government policy and report general terms of the Bill and has explained to the and recommend to the Minister those appli- House the reasons that the Opposition cannot ac- cations hich warrant approval. cept it. Guarantees issued under the scheme are to I would like to approach the Bill from a differ- be executed by the Minister, and are only cnt angle and point out a few discrepancies in collateral security to the lender's primary se- areas which have not been mentioned by other curity taken over the assets of the applicant. speakers and which I see in the Bill and in the Compared with guarantee or residual indemnity Minister's explanations in his second reading assistance available under the Industry speech. (Advances) Act, the scheme is not restricted to the Despite the explanations which have been given narrow range of industries as defined in that Act. to the House. one wonders what is the real purpose and provides assistance to nearly all types of small of this Bill. If one looks kindly at this question it businesses. may be thought that the genuine purpose is that The scheme is targeted to assist small businesses the Government wants to co-ordinate land plan- at the time of greatest need either to start up a ning. the execution of the result of such planning. new business or to expand operations of an and the administration of the plan in the interest existing business. of the whole State. particularly those groups which are involved-foresters, the forest industry, Other advantges of the scheme include- the mining industry, the conservationists, the tour- the removal of uncertainties as to which ist industry, and those involved in recreation. industries may qualify for assistance: If this were the position, then the question maintaining the existing client/bank re- immediately arises, is the Bill really necessary'? Is lationship. as aill approaches for assistance it an advantageous aim to follow? Is it really must be made through the applican t's bank proper and to the advantage of the community and which will administer the lending in the nor- the people involved to have the one department do miaI manner: the planning and also attend to the execution and facilitating access to finance on reasonable administration of the planning? terms by small business: and The question also arises whether the Bill itself is at reduction in administration procedures the best vehicle for this, even if it were advan- by the State and the time involved in giving a tageous to do it. To co-ordinate generally is all firm decision on applications received. right: nobody can argue about that. But one does The scheme is not simply to assist small businesses not have to have this sort of mammoth department in the metropolitan area but is to operate on a to achieve co-ordination. State-wide basis, including areas which may be If the intention is that one can only co-ordinate considered as remote. within one department, and the Government can- All branches of the major banks throughout the not do it as it has done it ever since there has been State will be provided with full details of the a Government in Western Australia--or else- scheme, and owners of small businesses even in where for that matter-with the existing many remote areas. may apply for assistance under the departments, then according to this logic the ex- scheme through their local bank. treme conclusion would be to have only one de- partment in the whole State. The Government sees this Bill ats another firm step in the path of providing worthwhile support to One must co-ordinate, but if one can only co- small business. As such it is expected the Bill will ordinate in a department, that would mean one lead to positive results in expanding the small should have one department only. business sector and the creation of more employ- This Bill co-ordinates three fields, departments, ment opportunities. or instrumentalities for land planning and land I therefore commend this Bill to the House. usage. If that is the argument, let amalgamation Debate adjourned, on motion by Mr Court. go further. Should not the Mines Department amalgamate with the Department of Conservation CONSERVATION AND LAND and Environment'? Should not the Department of Resources Development also be added*? If one MANAGEMENT BILL looks at any of the State agreements and the sub- Second Reading sequent developments based on them. then the Debate resumed fromt 25 September. further question is whether the other departments 1778 1778[ASSEMBLY] involved in land planning, land management and On the other hand if we want to look at the land use %%hich is this particular development for question of this legislation in a less kind way and which [the Suite agreement has been writ- try to examine the reasons and purposes for this tenl should not all be amialgamated. The Health Bill, one can immediately see that sonic methods Department. Water Resources Authority, the are not proper ones; they arc against the interests Public Works Department, the Education Depart- of the citizens of this State. This is not the first nment. and so on arc also involved. time the Government has done away with existing As I said, in this Bill it is proposed to amnalga- instrumentalities or departments simply by cre- nmate only somec of those departments involved in ating new ones, resulting in the old departmental land use. In an% case, the co-ordination need not heads automatically losing their positions. The be done in one department, it can be done with principle that civil servants stay there once they existing departments. I would suggest that would are appointed can be overcome in this way. There- be better. fore the Government has the opportunity to ap- point new people. If the separate depart ments do the planning under independent and quite separate leadership, This is something wvhich must be examined. then the chances%are that one will arrive at a much There is a great likelihood that the main idea richer policy ulhich can choose between various behind this amalgamation is to create a new en- ideas which are not hamstrung by one leadership. tity, a number of new administrators who could be one idea, or one set of thoughts about in which appointed quite legitimately in circumstances direction this planning must go. where the Public Service could claim its members were being bypassed, or that contrary to a long- In one line of leadership there is no diversity of standing custom people were being dismissed. ideas, no competition %%hich is necessary and in- There could be completely new appointments. hecrent in human nature. This improves the dhncnes for a better result. I would like to sound a warning that this is not the way a Government should proceed. The role of I knou%amnalgamiation is the vogue. I would not an independent Public Service is very important. condemn it out of hand. It is pirobably fair to It Is one of our, if not codified, then customary exmine the efficient results of any, amialgamnati on pillars of safe and impartial government, which exercise which is concerned with administration government should be. only. or execution only. which deals with almost identical matters. But to do it on the research side Opportunities for these people to contribute oc- is definitely a disadvantage. cur behind closed doors of ministerial offices. They have served I have ahkays been against the amalgamnation of in the Public Service throughout their lives and they represent a balance research. For instance, in education. When we which might otherwise be niissing if their positions %%ere in Government and the Colleges of Advanced wvere Education %%ere amnalgamnated. I did not think that filled by Government sympathisers. political aides, was thle right thing to do. I think the bluff of the and the like. In that case, the temptation wold be very great to finish up in impropriety. Coinmon wealth (jove rnmn t that unless anma I- garnation happened it would not contribute By changing. separating, and reorganising de- funds should have been called. Under separate partments and instrumentalities, these public ser- leadership these individual colleges could have vants lose their statutory positions. The oppor- produced different ideas. There is nothing wvrong ttinity then arises, to put it kindly, for the Govern- with one finishing up better than others. ment to appoint political sympathisers, or what- It is thie satme all over the world. To claim that ever one may call them. people are equal is plain stupidity. because people This is very easy to detect when amnalgamnation are not equal. Whoever contends they are does not occurs for its own sake and change takes place for understand hiu man nature at least pragnia ti change's sake which is the case, at least partially. call y. in this instance. I say that, because it is difficult to I was yerN nmutch aga inst the amalga mat ion of find any other reason for this legislation wvhich universities. There %%ere strong threats towards the seeks to do away with departments which work end of our term of Government that Murdoch properly at the present time, which represent dif- U niversi t should have been amalga ma ted with ferent interests, and about which no complaints the LUnihers itN of Western Australia. I think that have been lodged. Sas a verx ba stiggest ion. I "Nasdefi ni tel) against The Government says that the Bill has general the principle of amalIgamat ion if it applied to re- support. I asked a question in relation to the sec- .search and planning, even if it could be proved to ond reading speech as to where this support could be effricient or to cost less. be proved. The response was almost amusing. be- [ Wednesday, 26 September 19841 177977 cause in it. the Minister named a few organis- implied that this council had been fornied already ations one of which, under the heading of organis- without legislation, which of course, can occur: ations which support the Bill, was the WA Guild but one must then ask why it has been ignored in of Furniture Manufacturers (Inc.). I do not know the Bill, because presumably it will have a major what the Furniture Manufacturers Guild has to do role to play. If it is to be formed under legislation with land use planning and land use management. later, that legislation should have been a cognate Another question which arises is the future roles Bill dealt with concurrently with this Bill. How- of the Departnment of Conservation and Envi ron- ever, we do not see such legislation anywhere on ment and the Environmental Protection Auth- the horizon. ority. If we have a very large department connec- The Bill introduces very little that is new; it ted with the Premier or, at least, operating to some simply seeks to complicate administration and extent under his supervision, can the Department concentrates on the management of managers, of Conservation and Environment and the EPA which is the least of the problem. Indeed, the Bill maintatn the independent roles designed for them? is an extravaganza of organisation charts. There is I ask that question, because those bodies will be an executive director who will he the permanent confronted with policies and management head of the new department. Then there arc to be resolutions made by a department which is at least three directors of various things, but those direc- nominally headed by the Premier. It will be very tors do not appear to be given anything other than difficult for those bodies to maintain their inde- their titles and membership of the authority. In pendence. particularly if their leadership has been the case of the Director of Forests, he is given changed, which I think will occur when the membership of the Forest Production Council as proposed legislation in respect of environmental well. There are more chiefs than Indians, and the protection is introduced. Indeed, that has occurred problem will be with the latter. to sonic extent already in respect of the EPA, The Bill contains many subtle changes. For because one member has resigned and. I under- example, in the present National Parks Authority stand, the remaining terms of the other two mem- Act there is clear provision for the role of the bers are not all that long. director versus the Minister and the authority it- A situation could be created where the Depart- self. In this Bill, the very same person has no fixed ment of Conservation and Environment and the link with the Minister or even with the new auth- EPA could become stooges, even if they ority. He may have a title, but he will have no maintained separate identities, to this newly power directly. I would think that his pride in his created, large department. role would be diminished and certainly his role-and even that of the Ministr-is unclear. Sonic proof of what I am saying can be found in the fact that the ultiniate policy-making council It seems that he is to be involved with the ap- which the Deputy Premier mentioned in his sec- proval of management plans-this is enshrined in ond reading speech is not incorporated in the Bill, clause 60-and in various detailed issues; but I but rather is to be dealt with separately. Presum- cannot find where the authority, the commission, ably that council will direct this department and or the council is to be responsible to the Minister the other departments which are involved in land in general areas. There are numerous problem planinning. development, and management. The areas that may be the result of careless drafting. fact that, by and large, the machinery provisions For example, with regard to the membership of in the Act which is sought to he repealed have not the authority, one assumes that the members from been tampered with seems also to justify the same the public are not all to be associated with the crit icismii. Conservation Council. otherwise there would be a As I said at the beginning of my speech., I massive imbalance. This relates to clause 23. Nor should like to inatke some detailed comments. Gen- is there to be anyone on the council who could erally I found that the Bill was rather hard to represent the tourist industry, and this is rather digest, because of the multiple bureaucracies it surprising considering the Government's emphasis seeks to establish and the lack of logic or coher- on tourism. ence in their inter-relationships. The second reading speech contains quite a lot One assumes that we are not yet finished with of contradictions and matters that are very hard to these bureaucracies.,lbecause the Mulca hy com- comprehend. The Minister says that the Bill has mittee recommended the establishment of a major three main objectives, but the objectives are Land Resources Policy Council consisting of already quite properly catered for. Government department heads. That council is Security of tenure is catered for in the Land not mentioned in the Bill. The Deputy Premier Act, because 'A'-class reserves have a fairly se- 1780 1780[ASSEMBLY) cure tenure: they can be altered only with the have explained, there will be no change from the consent of Parliament. present. The second objective, which is said to be the The claim that the proposed reorganisation will provision of atmechanism to provide public partici- increase efficiency and that therefore extra expen- pation. already exists and has been fairly success- diture will be justified, reads rather strangely. It ful, as evidenced by the "Green" and "Red Books- almost says that we have no problems at present. issued by the EPA. but if we get more money which justifies an ad- The third objective, which is said to be the pro- ditional administration, some problems might de- vision of a legislative base for the administration velop which in turn can be solved by this Bill. of all these areas, again already exists in the two All in all I could not agree more with what has Acts that arc to be repealed. In fact, the Minister been said on behalf of the Opposition by the mem- himself says that the legal mechanisms will re- ber for Vasse. Indeed this is a large Bill which, will main essentially unchanged. It is therefore fairly create very large problems. That is sufficient difficult to see how they are to be improved. reason for the Opposition not to agree to the Bill. What the Bill does is to confuse the issue and to MR LAURANCE (Gascoyne) [3.06 p.m.]: I blur what are currently clear distinctions in the also oppose this measure. The problems it will public mind and in the minds of the people who create have been adequately canvassed by previous will be responsible for the administration of this Opposition speakers, particularly the member For proposed department. Vasse. who put in a tremendous amount of re- The Minister has said that the proposed Lands search when preparing his lead speech, on which I and Forests Commission is to consist of two mem- compliment him. bers from the community who will represent re- I am participating in this debate because of my spectively conservation and production interests. experience of having ministerial responsibility for But the Bill does not provide this: it provides in- a number of the departments that are to be affec- stead that members of the commission shall have a ted by this measure. I am speaking because of my knowledge of and experience in the areas of con- involvement perhaps more than any other member servation. recreation and forest production; they with a number of agencies to be affected by this would be expected to know about all three areas measure. Although I was not a Minister in charge and not just one of t hemn. of these areas for long, nevertheless I had re- As for the title of National Parks and Nature sponsibility for an interesting group of portfolios Conservation Authority, the Minister believes that when I was previously Minister for Lands, Forests, this represents an amialgamnation of the existing and Conservation and Environment. My National Parks Authority and the wildlife section responsibilities brought me into contact with all of the Department of Fisheries and Wildlife. these agencies, perhaps with the exception of the Department of Fisheries and Wildlife. I had close On the other hand, he proposes that the new contact with a number of other agencies including authority shoutd have a majority of non-Govern- some that presumably will be involved and which ment members, but this would make it fairly diffi- are currently administered through the Lands and cult to administer by the department itself. The Surveys portfolio. A number of their are not Forests Production Council will have on it rep- mentioned in the Bill, but I presume they will be resentatives of the tiniber industry, so the balance involved in some way in the future, and I will ask will be such that we can be assured there will be questions of the Premier in this regard later. internal quarrelling between the authority and the council. I am very concerned about what will be the outcome of the formation of this new department. None of these points was referred to in the Its creation will have grave consequences for the second reading speech. But the Minister says that timber industry in this State. and it will have the commission's principle function will be to ad- similar grave consequences for the fishing indus- vise the Minister on forest production policy. He try. This matter was canvassed last night by the said that the Forests Production Council will pro- member for Katanning-Roc. These are two major vide for the First time a Formal body to advise the industries in Western Australia and they provide a Minister on forest production. The two statements tremendous amount of employment and export being contradictory means that we will have two earnings. The State needs to look after them very different bodies advising the Minister on this well1. It must be aware of what it is doing to them issue the council and the commission. and must also act with great caution. It is no The Minister also claimns that there will be a accident that these industries are well managed significant increase in security of tenure, but as I and successful. This has happened because of good [Wednesday. 26 September 19841 178178 management, sound investment, the courage and The member for Kimberley has been a manager conviction displayed by the people involved in and a shire counillor and has been involved in a these industries, and presumably by Governments number of organisations, so he would know what I providing good admri nist ratlion. This Government mean. I would like to speak also about the tremen- is about to change all that and with possible grave dous safety record of the Forests Department. consequences for these industries. Members of the department have been asked to I am convinced this new department will not speak to and give advice about safety measures to work. I feel very Strongly about it. I just cannot forestry commissions and other organisations in see how it could work. We can bleat as much as Australia. we like in the Parliamnirt. but one of the most The Conservator of Forests used a management difficult problems for Opposition members and pool to ensure the department had a good safety therefore for the people of the State is that once record. An enormous amount of money and a lot this merger has bccn accomplished, it will bc diff- of lives have been saved. In Fact the Forests De- cult to try to put everything back again. This is a partment saves some 5500 000 on workers' com- srosconsideration. It will be very difficult if not pensation premiums alone. That is an outstanding impossible to reconstitute the Forests Department safety record. as we know it today. The same difficulty would apply to attempts to re-establish the Department The multiple-use policies which have been of Fisheries and Wildlife. They are two extremely adopted by the Forests Department have been successful departments.. It is only a matter of backed up by successive State Governments It is a time--lect us hope for the sake of this State that it marvellous policy for the use of our forests. I must is not too long--before we are returned to Govern- make the point that foresters love forests. Those ment. We will then have to try to sort out what who criticise the management programme of for- should be done with this mness. ests at times do not understand that foresters love I have given a great deal of thought about what forests first. we would need to do, but I do not know where we Our Forests Department officers have done ex- would start. It would be impossible to go back to tremely well and people of this State should be where we were. Unfortunately, that would not be justly proud of them. They have looked after tim- an option open to a future Government. ber production as well as the environmental, tour- I will deal with the Forests Department first. ism anid recreational aspects orfForests. The forests Being the Minister for Forests for just over a year have the protection of the Parliament. The work- was a tremnendous privilege for me, because that ing plans of the Forests Department must be department is a fine, proud Organisation. I have tabled in both Houses of Parliament. said publicly on a number of occasions that I was It has been the case that the Conservator of a great admirer of the former Conservator of For- Forests could not be removed from office without ests. Mr Bruce Beggs. the full concurrence of Parliament. He has had a Mr Brian Burke: Who supports this legislation. tremendous amount of parliamentary protection, Mr LAURANCE: What I admired about that as have the people who have worked for him. One department was the fact that every person in the would not think that such a protection would be Organisation I met- and there were about 1 200 done away with lightly. However, the Australian public servants involved in the department--on Labor Party has been determined to dismantle and the professional, office and field staff' was proud of emasculate the Forests Department. the Organisation. We knew this would happen. even though it was Usually when one speaks to the field staff of a not part Of the Labor Party's Manifesto. We knew large Organisation and asks what is going on one is that when the ALP won office it would start the usually told- "They are doing this", or "They are process of emasculating the Forests Department. I doing such and such". It is usually a "them" and do not know the reason the Australian Labor us- situation. However, with the Forests Depart- Party wishes to do that. It has certainly been the ment, every time I s;poke to people in that organis- case in every other State in Australia which has ation they said. "'We are doing so and so". We are elected a Labor Government. This has occurred in doing such and such-' I think that is a marvellous New South Wales and Victoria. My experience compliment to the Organisation. because every does not stretch to South Australia, but I would be person I spoke to felt he was it part of the organis- very surprised if the State Labor Government in ation. That sort of situation is difficult to achieve South Australia were not dismantling or in a large Organisation. but the Forests Depart- emasculating the Forests Department in that ment has done that. State. 178? 1782[ASSEMBLY]

Some members may believe I am being extrava- That was a diabolical way to abuse and misuse gant when making such claims, but I have had the some senior scientists in our State. I feel sorry for opportunity to attend meetings with foresters from Dr Mulcahy. other States. I have met with the Forestry Council At the end of his professional service to this and senior foresters. If it were possible to bring the State, Dr Mulcahy was put in a situation where he former Conservator of Forests to the Bar of Par- was dragooned into producing a report in a very liament I would like to ask him if what I am short time and saying is not true, because he was there also. I with coming up with an answer to a heard other senior forestry commissioners and Government request. That is no way to treat a officers from other States say that what has scientist. The task force was not allowed to hold proper consultations or to make reference to other happened in Labor Government States is a disas- ter. They have not been able to manage their for- people. It was given no time. The interim report was presented in October ests any longer because the the coups for clear and the Final report was presented in felling and regeneration have been reduced to an February. unmanageable size. They have been cut down to Dr Mulcahy spoke to the Opposition with the such an extent that they cannot manage them. approval of the Minister or of the Premier. I am They are having difficulties also with fire protec- not sure which. We asked him whether local tion of their forests. That is what has been said in government had been advised of the task force's New South Wales and Victoria. The control of the hearings. He said that the local authorities had forests has been taken out of the hands of the not, but that they could report in January. We told foresters and put into the hands of the him that most local government authorities did environmentalists. The management of their for- not meet in January. He said then that, because he ests is nowv a joke, and atdisaster. had to provide a report to the Premier in January. he would not then be able to meet with local That is what we are headed for in this State. government representatives. The Government had The strength of my argument is that not only has told him to give it results and to give them as the ALP in Western Australia attempted to emas- quickly as possible. culate the Forests Department, but also the Labor It is with some regret that I now bring into this Governments in other States in Australia have debate Dr Shea. He is present in the gallery and done exactly the same. has been here for most of the debate. I came to know him when I was Minister. He is a top re- It is no surprise to the Opposition that this has search scientist. People spoke very highly of him occurred. We knew it was only a matter of time. as a research scientist. However, I believe that he but we did not know how it would be done. Now loses his objectivity when he becomes a political we know the senior people have been promoted. adviser. He is a former member of the State The Conservator of Forests was moved. He was Executive of the Australian Labor Party. promoted, and good luck to him because he de- served that promotion. He is an outstanding Mr Mclver: What is wrong with that? officer. H-owever. he wats not replaced. Some of Mr LAURANCE: I said that, as a research the capable people who could have taken his place scientist. I have nothing but praise for him. How- have been shifted out of the way. A temporary ever, I doubt his position as a political adviser. He person took his place for a year. One of the candi- is atmember of the State Executive of the ALP. It dates for the office has been shifted. It is my is true that, when I was Minister. I received sev- understanding the next Conservator of Forests eral requests from people in Mandurah asking me could have been Mr Frank Campbell, but he can- to dismiss Dr Shea because of his activities on the not be the conservator because he has been shifted to the Public Service Board. Shire of Mandurah. Mr Read: Requests from members of the Lib- Once again I appreciate the fact that that move eral Party, I bet. may have been at promuotion for him, but I believe Mr LAURANCE: They were requests by these people have been promoted out of the way so that they cannot give the Government a hard time people who wrote that Dr Shea spent too much of his time working as a councillor for the Shire ats Mr Coates has seen fit to do in the last few of Mandurab to be able to do days. his Government job properly. The Government made ai decision to set up a The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I would like the task force to give it the atnswers it wanted, and member to restrict his comments to matters that is exactly what the task force did. contained in the Bill. [ Wednesday. 26 September 1984]178 1783

Mr LAURANCE: Yes. Mr Deputy Speaker. I Is that now to be done away with'? Can the believe that that scientist has at great deal to Minister say what will become of that department ansser for. lie has betrayed his colleagues in his and why it does not form part of this land manage- former departmecnt. History will record that if the ment Bill'? name Lane Poole is the shining white knight in the Mr Brian Burke: Land management has history of the Forests Department in this State, nothing to do with the technical aspects of then Dr Shea will be recorded as the Machiavel- transferring titles. lian prince, lie has presided over the demise of a very fine department. lie wVill answer to his con- Mr LAURANCE: I do not think the Minister has read the Land Act. In fact, amendments have science for that and I Will answer to my conscience been made to the Act about the management of for everything that I have said. The Forests De- partnment hats been eniasculated. reserves--amendments to which he agreed in this Parliament two years ago. I do not expect the I want also to refute the Premier's claim that Premier to know what is in the Land Act. How- the timber industry agrees with this proposal. I ever, he should look at it before he makes any think the timber industry is scared stiff. That is comments along those lines. the only reason for its agreeing with the proposal. Why has the Department of Lands and Surveys Unfortunately, under this legislation, there is no been ignored in this matter and what will be the security of tenure for the tremendous investments future of that department'? made in the forest industry, Millions of dollars have been invested and one of the investors Mr Mclver What do you mean by. "Why has operates on an annual licence From the Conser- the Department of Lands and Surveys been vator of Forests. That is an enormoos business risk ignored'!" for anyone to take in return for at tenure of one Mr LAURANCE: What part hats it played in year. the formulation of this policy'? The Conservator of Forests previously has had Mr Mvvr: It has had atvery big input into it. to answer to Parliament and has had to table his Mr LAURANCE: We will be very interested to plans. This Government has taken away that par- see how the Minister intends to carry out his liamentary protection and that safeguard. The for- duties and responsibilIi ties because he is charged estry industry hats every right to be scared. The with the responsibility of the management of re- proposed structure of the department will not serves. It will be interesting to see how that Func- work. tion is earnied out upon the creat ion of the Depart- An organisational chart was included in the ment of Conservation and Land Management. Ministcr\s second reading speech. That has, not been explained to us. Mr Blaikie: It was wkrong. I think the people of this State need to know what is the future of the department. Mr LAURANCE: Yes, it had to be amended. The member for Vasse said that the Director of I also want to know what will beeomne of the Forests will be the director of nothing. The National Parks Authority, for which I had re- Government hats tried to balance himn up as the sponsibility at one stage. It provides an excellent manager of forests and the administrator of tim- service to this State. It has always been ber in this State. lie will be given equal weight acknowledged by the Government that it requires with People QhO are responsible for recreation and extra resources. conservation. Those positions cannot be balanced. However, I do not think that the Forests De- I think they are mu1Lttially exclusive as will be partmecnt should be ruined so that the National shown to be the ease. Parks Authority can obtain more resources. That w6ould not be a responsi ble action. The Government is about to set up a Depart- mecnt of Conservation and Land Managemnrt. I think we should remember that nmnny parks There is alrecady a Department of Lands and Sur- and wildlife sanctuaries have been set aside as a veys in existence. What is to become of that de- result of reserves committee reports which have partment' What about the land agencies and all been adopted by successive Governments.. of the research areas that it administers? We have National parks and %%ildlife reserves cover a far spent an enormous amount of public money on larger area in this State than in any other State in building up a land inl'orniation system. The mainland A ustralia. That is a very proud record. present (iovernnment has put more funds into that Of course, in the last 10 yecars or so, it hats been system. It has proclaimed proudly that the work it impossible to provide the National Parks Auth- did %%as of great benefit to the State and that it ority- with sufficient funds to match its additional would continue. responsibility. That %%ill conic in due course as the 1784 784[ASSEMBLY]

State can afford it. However, at least the initial Mr LAURANCE: I have nominated six or reservations were carried out, and great credit to seven and there is also the Waterways Com- the Goverinmets-the Tonkin and Court Govern- mission: what will happen to that body? I presume ments-wvhieh put those areas aside for future that answer will come from the Minister for the generations. However. that is no excuse for Environment. Should the people working at the amialga mating the National Parks Authority in commission be packing their bags? this proposed department. I have dealt with a number of departments that I would like to know what it is intended will will be involved: The Lands and Surveys Depart- happen to some other land management agencies, menit is probably for the high jump, the Forests such as the Kings Park Board. What are the Department has been emasculated, the staff of the Premier's intentions in this area'? The Rottnest Department of Fisheries and Wildlife are Island Board "'as included in the interim repurt demoralised, as arc the staff at the National Parks but specifically excluded in the final report issued Authority. This proposal for a conglomerate that in February. Perhaps the Premier decided that as cannot possibly work, has made a tremendous dent he was Chairman of the Rottnest Island Board, in the morale of public servants of this State. and because it was his pet, he did not want that There is also the matter of when this depart- board scooped up with the rest. One is entitled to ment will get under way. It is our information that presume that is the case. He probably also had many things have already been decided and acted your support. Mr Deputy Speaker, because as a upon. I understand stationery has been printed member of that board you would not want to be and appointments have been made before parlia- gobbled up in that conglomerate. That is my as- mentary approval has been given to this Bill. sumption: The Premier said that the Rottniest Island Board should be cut out of the Mr Brian Burke: What appointments have been recomtmenda tions because that would not be pool. made'? Mr LAURANCE: Is the Premier I refer to the Bush Fires Board: what' will saying that happen to that organisation? Will it come under none has been made'? this new board'. Mr Brian Burke: Not to my knowledge. What evidence have you got for saying that they have Mr Blaikie: We had better wait for an answer. been made?! I should know if that were the case Mr Mclver: There will be no change to the and to the best of my knowledge no-one has been Bush Fires Board. appointed. You have said that appointments have Mr LAURANCE: Are the following groups in- been made and I am asking for your evidence. cluded in the legislation: The Herbarium, the Mr LAURANCE: I will have to produce that, Kings Park Board, the Zoological Gardens Board, to the Premier's embarrassment. I though the sec- and the Pastoral Board ? ond reading stage was for making points to which Mr Brian Burke: You know they are not. Have the Minister would respond. you read the report') Mr Brian Burke: Where is the evidence for Mr LAURANCE: I will rephrase the question: what you have said?! Are they going to be included?! Mr LAUJRANCE: The Premier did not refute it evening when it was mentioned. Mr Brian Burke: The answer to the second last question is that the matter has not been decided. Mr Brian Burke: I am not aware that it was mentioned last evening. Mr LAURANCE: The Premier has indicated that other agencies will be involved. Mr LAURANCE: It was, and quite substantially. Mr Brian Burke: The matter has not been de- cided. Mr Brian Burke: You have raised this matter and made an assertion. Where is your evidence?! Mr LAURANCE: We are entitled when debat- ing this Bill to assume that those people had better Mr LAURANCE: At the moment it is an as- watch out in the future because they could be sertion. The evidence will be provided. involved. Mr Brian Burke: When'? Mr Brian Burke: You arc entitled to do what- Mr LAURANCE: I will have to see when. Per- ever you like and it is usually to disgrace yourself. haps when we reach the Committee stage of the Mr Blaikie: The Premier indicated that in ad- Bill. dition to what has already been proposed. four Mr Brian Burke: I want it on the record that other agencies will be included. you have evidence of the appointments and you [Wednesday, 26 September 19841 181785 arc going to produce the evidence. You are a Forests was appointed to make sure that political sq ui b. favours would not be bestowed in this regard. Mr LAURANCE: I will come back with the It is essential to mention that there is great evidence in the Committee stage and the Premier concern on the part of local government in this will see who is a squib. respect. That concern will strengthen as time goes on and local government experiences the total con- I am also concerned about the position relating trol centralised government will have on all land to marine parks.. The Government has said that it management in this State. People in local govern- intends to legislate this year for the establishment ment have expressed their concern already in a of the Ningalco reef marine park. I want to know number of ways, but their experience will be quite when that will happen and also when the concerns devastating. expressed by my constituents will be adequately I mentioned town planning and land planning answered by the Minister before the Government and the delays which have taken place in that moves in this direction. regard. I also refer to the fact that those matters MR RUSHTON (DaleC) 13.36 pRm.): Much has should be dealt with at the same time as this"Bill. been said about this legislation and I hope to tra- An explanation should be given for the failure verse somec new viewpoints. Having been Minister to include MRPA land. The MRPA owns valuable for Planning. I amn concerned that no review was reserves in the metropolitan area and the decision completed of the present land planning and town to exclude that land could relate to economics. planning procedures and it was not presented at Rottoest is another area which, were the the same time ats this legislation so that we could Government sincere about its proposal, it would See the total package and deliberate upon it ac- have included in the dragnet of the Bill. cordingly. This legislation should be withdrawn and the land planning and town planning legis- Those are the two areas of land management lation should be presented so that we can ascertain which are not included and adequate explanations how they fit together. However, we must put aside should be given for that if the Government wishes the fact that that process has not taken place. to prove that its approach is the right one. The Government has failed to prove that the new Land is one of the most valuable resources we System of central control will improve land man- have, other than people. and therefore we are all agement. and this legislation should not be passed most sensitive about how it is handled and dealt without that proof being presented. As far as I am with. That has been the record in the history of concerned, such a vital matter as this should be this State for all time. The Bill as presented fol- resisted with all the strength we can muster to lows a socialist philosophy of giving more control ensure that the Government provides the facts and to Government. This is where the danger arises figu res. I f t hose facts and figu res are not ava iIa blIe, with the legislation. Time will prove that it has the legislation should be delayed until the Govern- been a very inappropriate move and will limit the ment can provide them to prove that land manage- activities and confidence of those who need to use ment will be improved by this legislation. land as it should be used. It is of serious concern that the Bill enhances the Government's oppor- It is interesting to refer to some of the com- tunity, and that of its friends and advisers, to ments made in a submission to the task force by the Institute of Foresters of Australia (Western bestow fakvours for personal and political advan- tage. It is an extremely serious matter for an all- Australian Division). I shall quote a few extracts powerful Government to place the valuable re- from that submission to indicate the fears which source of Land under the control of a few hands are still held, despite the review and the directly related to the Government. Such a move presentation of the second report. will encourage graft and corruption. A very responsible group of people, the for- esters, made these comments, one of which is as The elimination of the position of Conservator follows- of Forests is a move in the wrong direction. In this State we have grown up with the knowledge of the The fact is that there has been nothing close link between the land and the Conservator of substantiated in the legislation to prove what Forests. We saw him as protector of that valuable the Government is setting out to do. resource. The conservator was initially appointed The concept of the legislation is that, by amalga- to avoid somec of the political decisions that could mation, resources will be used better; however, we have been made in the past. In years gone by. deny that. I can prove that concept is a fallacy in allocations of land have been made to people be- the area of transport. The Government has cause of their connections. The Conservator of suggested recently that the offices of the Co- 1786 786[ASSEMBLY] ordinator General of Transport and of the Com- No-one could argue with that. To continue - mnissioner of Transport should be amalgamated. A This effect will be most traumatic for most tremendous amount of research has been carried smaller groups who face incorporation into out in this area by independent consultants and what will seem to them to be a massive that research has proved that it is far more effec- bureaucracy. tive cost-wise and from the point of view of That is the thing we want to dismantle. The Oppo- administration and decision making to retain the next in current structure. However, if one were to believe sition has made a commitment that, when government not big the Government's argumient-the socialist's argu- Government, it will have small government. The next extract is very pertinent and ment-amialgamnation should take place. reads as follows The second extract I shall quote from the for- There is a risk that if all land management esters' report is as follows- dccisions are confined to one Department. It must be pointed out that although Dr conflicting viewpoints or outlooks will become Mvulcahy. Dr Shea and Mr Halse have all had suppressed. distinguished careers in scientific research. That is a very valid point and the Premier should none is experienced in land management of answer it. We shall have a group of all-powerful public administration. people who will be making decisions without fear That is a very strong point against what is taking of contradiction and we will not have the advan- place at the present time in respect of the material tage of the crossfire that occurs currently. put forward by these three gentlemen, and it is a The advantage of the Cabinet system is that, valid criticism. To continue - from time to time, different points of view are put Criticisms of the Forests Department's role forward and Cabinet makes a decision: it is the in timber supply planning, of insufficient umpire and the final decider. In this case, we shall funding in National Parks or of overlap in have a powerful group niaking those decisions. fire control are not in themselves reason for I must point out that the foresters' report was complicated government restructuring. supplied to the member for Vasse and was part of It would not take very much thought to realise the material he obtained from the inquiry. The that is a fact ual statement. A further comment next extract reads as follows- reads as follows-- The IFA stresses the need for land man- The task force has not presented details of agement agencies to operate on the pro- the costs of its proposals. fessional, not the political level. I made at point about that at the beginning of my Here we are putting the political aspect up front in speech. To continue - these considerations. To continue- Any maj or restructuring of Government Quite apart from the organisational aspects will be at the expense of public funds. there is a good legal reason for not forming a Commission, and that is the result of the re- It is obvious that that is the case. cent High Court decision on the Franklin The next point is one which emerges frequently River issue. At that judgement it was clearly in our daily lives and it is about time that the pointed out that Federal Government power socialists were aware of it. It relates to a further explicitly covers corporations and com- comment by the foresters and concerns the fact missions, so that a Federal Government could that the rule today is not that "Big is best" but override State Government policies in the op- that "Small is beautiful". The extract reads as erations of a Commission. The I.FA. con- follows siders it most unwise to leave open this Management scientists throughout the potential avenue for conflict. world are no"- presenting research which op- That does not worry the Government, because it is poses increasing the size of organisational in accord with the Federal Government's policy of structures. directing the State as it thinks fit. That occurs in That goes without saying, because if people have the area of land rights and elsewhere. To con- an interest in something they make a far more tinue- productive input. The next point is as follows- The foresters find that the proposals put In this situation, people identify with the forward by the review committee have been goals and take pride in the achievements of totally unproven. their organisation. This increases morale, job I shall not quote further from that report other satisfaction and productivity. than to refer to this final valid comment- [ Wednesday, 26 September 1984] 178718

Finally, the l.F.A. is concerned that any Mr Mclver: The Surveyor General is not the changes wrought are not only positive but are head of the department. The Under Secretary for long-lasting. Change followed by counter- Lands had many discussions with the committee. change following election of a new Govern- That is only a view he expressed. It is not the view nient would be cou nter- productive to good of the department. land management. Mr Blaikie: He is entitled to his view. The I.FA. therefore recommends that Mr Mclver: Of course he is entitled to it, but it change must be generally acceptable across is not the view of the department. the spectrum of the community and especially Mr RUSHTON: Responsible people with very to both major political parties before they are high reputations- implee nted. Mr Mclver: It was not irresponsible. He was That again is a very valid point. This time of only expressing a personal view which is not the course there is no agreement and obviously the view of the department. The Under Secretary for Government intends to push ahead with this Lands is not the head of the department. socialist legislation and it will be on its head to Mr RUSHTON: The Minister makes strange face up to the problems that it brings forward. The assumptions. Government is hopeful that by the time the next election arrives the many problems expected will Mr Mclver: Look who's talking. not have arisen. The Premier and also. I think, the Mr RUSHTON: Go on, denigrate people. Minister for Lands and Surveys stated that there Mr Tonkin: You said that, and he is just repeat- was no other point of view except agreement or ing what you said. Who is denigrating whom'? approval from the Department of Lands and Sur- Mr Blaikie: I thought you would be a little more veys. I have with me a copy of the Surveyor Gen- understanding in regard to Parliament Week. eral's report dated 29 December 1983 which re- port went to the group which reviewed the amal- Mr 1. F. Taylor: You would have to be under- gamation of the National Parks Authority. It standing. reads as follows- Mr RUSHTON: I want to conclude by commenting on the establishment of this organis- In advocating the amalgamation of organ- ation. isations such as the Forests Department, the National Parks Authority, the Wildlife Sec- Mr Mclver: Let me make this point very clear, tion of the Department of Fisheries and and let me say it quite categorically: The Lands Wildlife, the Western Australian Herbarium and Surveys Department had a lot of discussion and elements of other agencies concerned before this Bill was brought to this House, was with management of public lands, it appears fully conversant with it, and fully agreed with it. I to me that the Task Force may not have had cannot make it any plainer than that. access to the minutes of meetings which were Mr Tonkin: Hear, hear! Good statement. held prior to the introduction of the National Mr RUSHTON: It isn't sub judice, I hope. Parks Authority Act 1976 and the creation of the existing National Parks Authority.' As Mr Spriggs: It probably would use a pick one of the officers of the day appointed to handle. deliberate on this aspect together with such Mr RUSHTON: It probably would do so. In other people as the then Conservator of For- conclusion, the Premier has made the point that to ests (Mr. B. J. Beggs) the then Chairman of his knowledge and understanding- the National Parks Board (Mr. C. J. Mr Tonkin: You talk about denigration of Jenkins). the Director of Fisheries and people. Wildlife (Mr. B. K. Bowven), the then Direc- tor of Conservation and Environment, (Dr. B. Mr RUSHTON: -there has not been any es- tablishment of this O*Brien): the then Chairman of the Public authority and consequently, no appointments have been made or stationery pur- Service Board (Mr. R. H-. Doig). the then Director of the W.A. Museum (Dr. W. D. L. chased. The Minister for Lands and Surveys Ride) and the then Under Secretary for agreed with him. As a let-out the Premier said, Lands (Mr. F. W. Byfield). the matter was "To my knowledge". He happens to be the fully explored. Premier, and the Chairman of the Cabinet, and any appointments would go before the Cabinet They found in fatvour of the isolated approach. and obviously he is expected to have an under- That contradicts the interjections which have been standing, being the Minister in charge of this Bill, made. of expenditure incurred in the establishment of 1788 1788ASSEMBLY] offices. stalionery. and person nel-everything to Mr Tonkin: What really worries me is that 10 go with the creation of this new authority. minutes ago you said, "in conclusion" Mr Tonkin: More personal abuse. Mr RUSHTON: We are allowed only 30 min- Mr RUSHTON: He is held liable for mislead- utes by the Government. The Government controls ing the House if that is taking place. Time will tell our speaking time. if he is misleading the House and, if he is, he Mr Tonkin: No. I don't. The House decided should be responsible and should pay the price for that. it. Mr Gordon Hill: You control your own time. Mr Mclver: I think he was referring to several The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr 1. F. Taylor): agencies which have not been decided by the Order, please! Government. Mr Tonkin: You should have been the lead Mr RUSH-TON: No, do not get away from speaker and then you would have had unlimited that. Several speakers made the claim that this time. It is Your own fault. Bill establishes the authority which has already been created, and that is an insult to the Parlia- Mr Peter Jones: The problem with that is that ment. he would have used all of it. Mr Peter Jones: Confirmed this morning by The ACTING SPEAKER: Order, please! people who had done work for it. Mr RUSHTON: The interjections by the Min- Mr RUSHTON: The Premier is denying that ister who is responsible for many things, including statement. Thai is what we are interested in. A the electorate Fiddle that is currently taking commitment has been made which has included place- expenditure. all in the face of disrespect to this Mr Tonkin: Electorate fiddle! You should talk Parliament- about that. You drew the line to save your seat. Mr Peter Jones: You will tell me next there is You cheat! That is the only reason you are here. no allocation in the Budget for it. A great heap of The ACTING SPEAKER: Order! money has been put into it. Mr Tonkin: If you didn't cheat you would not Mr Mclver: I am sure the Premier will reply be here. ably as he usually does. Mr RUSHTON: That is very good language. Mr RUSHTON: Hc denied that anything had Mr Acting Speaker, I noticed that you were smil- taken place. That confirmed it. So there is no ing about it. If you think the use of words like doubt about it. He has confirmed it to the best of ~cheat" are- his knowledge. That is his let-out for that commit- Mr Tonkin: You should not have done it. ment. To the best of his knowledge nothing has taken place. The member for Gascoyne and. I The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr 1. F. Taylor): understand, the member for Narrogin have made The member for Dale will address himself to the matter before the Chair. the points that to the best of their knowledge and understanding there has been a commitment in the Mr RUSHTON: We should concern ourselves way of resources for the establishment of this with people who use words like "*cheat" which was body. used by the Leader of the House. Mr Peter Jones: People have been seconded and The ACTING SPEAKER: The member for have been working on it for a very long time. Dale will address himself to the matter before the Mr RUSHTON: It is really flying in the face of Chair and the Leader of the House will refrain Parliament and authority. If we go on like this we from interjecting. will be at banana republic before we know where Mr RUSHTON: It is a situation that has been we arc. accepted under this Government. I return to my Mr Blaikic: One of the things that mi.ght con- main point: I made the claim that this legislation cern the Opposition is the Governmenit's South should not continue until such time as other legis- West Development Authority legislation. lation which might follow from the review of land planning and town planning matters is before the Mr Peter Jones: It did the same with that. House. It is a serious matter that we should put in Mr RUSH-TON: A body had been structured place legislation that will centralise control over and operating for some 12 months prior to the one of our most valuable resources-land. The legislation coming before the Parliament. The first steps which have been taken in the socialist thing that really worries me is that there is no countries involve the control of land. It happened provision- here under the Whitlam Government which (Wednesday, 26 September 19841 17898 sought to convert land ownership and title to pointments to be made by the Government to the leasehold. new departments. In other countries, we have seen the socialists Mr Acting Speaker (Mr 1. F. Taylor), you taking over control of the people by socialising would realise the problems of farmers in respect of their land-taking the title to land from individ- land management, because of your involvement uals. We see this Bill as a step in that direction. with the Select Committee inquiring into rural and I strongly oppose the Bill. hardship. Farmers have experienced devastating MR TUBBY (Greenough) [4.01 p.m.j: Along years, with a resultant poor financial situation, with my colleagues in the Opposition. I indicate and they have had to treat land not in the way that I oppose this Bill very strongly. they would desire, but in the way they are forced to treat it to give the maximum return to get Mr Tonkin: Don't you like progress'? themselves out of their difficult financial positions. Mr TUBBY: I certainly like progress, it is a In most eases, it has not given them pleasure to do great thing: but I do not consider this Bill to be that: but they have been forced into that situation progress as far ats country people are concerned. in an endeavour to increase their incomes. That is My colleague, the member for Vasse, very ably a considerable worry to them; and it is difficult to outlined the problems as he sees them. I compli- know what to expect in the years to come. We ment him on the contribution he made. However. I hope that the economics of farming will be such do not congratulate the Government for the con- that farmers will be able to farm their land and sideration it gave to local government in calling treat it as they did in the past. They have the for submissions. desire to do soin the future. Mr Tonkin: We have the best Minister for Lo- I have a very large national park in my elector- cal Government this State has ever seen. ate-the 380 000 acres of the Kalbarri National Park. The park rangers at Kalbarri are highly Mr TUBBY: I am not critieisng the Minister trained men who are proud of the fact that they for Local Governmecnt; I am criticising the are part of the control of the national park. They Premier in his calling for submissions from local are conscious of the need for the conservation of government and the timing of that request over flora and fauna, and the need for general land the period when local government is completely management within the park. disorganised during the Christmas break. The re- quest for submissions went out too late for the To give some idea of the response of this December meetings: and it was necessary to put .ni Government to letters and statements. I will read submissions in February. That is the time of the from a letter sent to the Premier by the WA year that most local government operations are at National Parks & Reserves Association (Inc.) as a low ebb, with most of the staff away on holidays follows- and most country people taking the opportunity to Dear Mr Burke. go away. It was an inopportune time to request re: proposed Conservation and Land Manage- information in relation to a matter that was so ment Department. important to country people. That only goes to show the lack of consideration by the Government This Association views with great concern the for the problems of local government in respect of planned dismemberment of the State's very compiling information at that time of the year. effective wildlife conservation agency, and the dismantling of National Park manage- I can see at definite conflict between the devel- ment. The absorption of both these conser- opment of resources and the conservation of the vation elements into a large agglomeration environment. Here we have two highly specialised which will include tree harvesting and catch- groups, each capable of managing its own area of ment manipulation is NOT rational. interest in a specialised way and giving utmost consideration to decisions before development AN UNPROVEN STEP takes place. The new Department- I can speak as a member of the farming com- Will have multiple functions with dissimi- munity because I have been involved in the man- lar aims, which- agement of land for my whole life, with the excep- result in conflicting arguments and tion of the few years I have been in politics. I can understand the concern of landholders, and par- competing financial and staff resource ticularly members of the farming community, needs. about the body to be set up and controlled by the Efficient rationalisation is =~ possible under Government. I have special concern for the ap- such circumstances. 1790 790[ASSEMBLY]

Such atgglomecra tions have been contemplated To continue- and tried elsewvhere in Australia, and found to Merging of this kindred agency with the be ineffective. proven capabilities and skills of the existing eg. wildlife management agency is considered to 2Wd. the long-standing government has be a natural first step. Certainly it would lead tried a variety of options; it finally to a more homogenous union than involve- separated forestry and conservation ment with production forestry. management after a brief marriage. The document concludes as follows- Tas: Similar proposal aborted because of Rationalisation of federal funding for strong public reaction. Australia-wide National Park and Wildlife Vie: new mega-agglomneration already administration would be more effective than showing signs of strain. forced discordant amalgamations. Canada: provincial experience in coin- A very strong case is put there to the Government. bining timber and nature conservation and if local government had had the opportunity, has not served conservation well, and it, too, would have put forward very strong sub- public concern is evident. missions. However, when I consider what has to the submissions put forward by the FORESTRY DOMINATION happened National Parks and Reserves Association, I pre- An examination of staff listings shows that sume any submissions from local government agglomeration will result in- would have been treated in a similar way. Forests Department providing about 75 The Bill will have devastating long-term per cent of senior staff. consequences for land management in this State. Forests Department providing nearly 90 The Bill is introduced at a very inopportune time per cent of total staff. so far as a big percentage of the State is con- This will result in the swamping of pro- cerned. particularly the agricultural areas. I op- fessional biological staff in existing conser- pose the Bill. vation agencies by over-classified foresters. MR CRANE (Moore) [4.12 p.m.): I rise to ex- Domination by foresters has already press my concern at certain aspects of this legis- commenced in the interim absorption ar- lation. I notice that in the second reading debate rangemnts, is indicated in the newsletter the Minister said- 'lndat"' (May 1984) The task force made recommendations in In supporting its ease. the association said- three main areas. Firstly, the task force, recognising that a prerequisite to proper land PROVEN EFFECTIVENESS management was wise land use, The State's Wildlife management agency has Iam sure you, Mr Acting Speaker (Mr 1. F. proved its effectiveness. It is regarded as having the best record in Australia. Taylor) would agree that recently in our investi- gations we saw many cases where that is so. There it has already achieved effective inter- must be proper land use. but I do not believe this agency co-operation, for example the legislation, as I interpret it. will help in any way at highly successful systematic biological all. Proper land use depends in the first instance surveys in the Kimberley. Goldfields on what the land was allocated for. If it was rural and desert regions land, proper land use would depend on the person it has alIread3 ' achieved inter-state co- farming it, the economies of the day, the farmer's operation in various projects. cg the ability, and the ability of the land to produce. salt waler crocodile survey We know for a fact that many areas of land it has successfully secured atvariety of which have been opened up in the last 20 years Commonwealth grants for specific contain pockets which should not have been projects to supplement State funding cleared and used for agricultural purposes. Per- it has pioneered public pa rticipation in haps an instrumentality such as is envisaged in WA in the preparation of manage- this legislation may come up with some wise mient plans answers as to ho"' we can extract ourselves from the problems that have been created. Referring to Mr Troy interjected. my own electorate, if one looks west of Koojan, Mr TUBBY: Thai is referring to those bodies in one finds deep banksia sands which, to coin an old other States I mentioned previously. phrase, would not feed a rabbit, and should never J Wednesday, 26 September 1984] 179179 have been cleared for agricultural purposes. To This is a very dangerous part of the legislation. take it out of production and away from the farm We do not have the security of local government would require a tremendous amount of money be- to stand behind. We do not have the wisdlom of the cause it has been bought and it is owned. What Conservator of Forests who is acting only in an instrumentality would ever have sufficient funds advisory capacity and who has no teeth at all. to do that? I hope when allocations are made in Who is there to protect our land from what the future that such little areas will be taken into Minister wants to do'? We must be very careful in account. any legislation to insert the necessary safeguards. Those safeguards have been very cleverly removed I express my concern also that no consideration from this legislation, and on that count I must has been given to local government in this legis- oppose it. lation. Any members who have been here for a Last evening, the member for Kaianning-Roe long time. particularly those representing country spoke about the concern of the fishing industry. areas, know that land use and land itself is the very heart of local authorities. They are very con- This Bill is designed to achieve three main cerned for it. and those in local government objectives. The first is to ensure the security of virtually have to accept the responsibility for what tenure and the purpose of lands reserved for happens in their areas. I point out that one-third nature reserves, and national and marine parks. The flsh'ing industry makes a very valuable contri- of the Shire of Dandaragan is taken up with Western Australia, as do other forms of national parks or reserves, or whatever, and the bution to primary industry in this State. The fishing indus- Shire receives very little revenue from that land. We have niade many approaches to have other try contributes about $100 million to this State. Fishermen are always concerned that good fishing areas released, which are suitable for agriculture, grounds may be earmarked or looked at, and but we have been unable to persuade the threatened to be turned into marine parks. This authorities who manage this land att the moment., could easily happen with a Government or a Min- Now I find, and I am -sure about this, that the ister who was prepared to be swayed by public arnalganiatlion of the present bodies-it involves opinion. the repeal of the Forests Act, the National Parks We know the dangers of the vociferous min- Authority Act, and consequential amendments to ority. We saw that recently when Farrington road the Wildlife Conservation Act-will lead to their was forcibly redesigned in another area because a being welded into one bureaucratic monster, as it few people who suddenly decided they wanted to were. I ant concerned that when someone wants climb trees and run around with placards were something From the monster, there will be no room able to convince the Government-a nervous for movement because it will be bureaucratically Governmcnt--that it was not elected to govern in constipated. When that happens there is no move- its own right but to do what the Minority wanted. meat at all. Mr Burkett What about the situation under a The fact that local government will have no say previous Government when companies wanted to and will make no contribution is of great concern. mine the whole of Herdsman Lake? Was that a It is the most important level of government be- nervous Government responding'? cause it is closest to the people.[ cannot under- Mr CRANE: No, it was the same situation and stand why this Government, which has claimed to the lake should not be mined. I would agree with be the champion of local government over the last the member for Scarborough entirely; there is no couple of years, and has been most outspoken on way in the world that I wanted that to happen. this matter, should suddenly find that it does not Mr Burkett: Thank you very much. want local government to make a contribution or and to be responsible in any way. Mr CRANE: However, it did not happen that is an important point. It is dangerous that When one looks at the diagram on page 857 of such powers should be put into the hands of the Hansard-l understand there is an amendment to Minister without a uscable contribution from the the diagramn-one sees there is a direct line from people who have experience, such as those officers the Minister to the executive director. That means in the Forests Department. this legislation-and I hate to use this ex- My electorate includes the forest areas around pression-is socialist legislation because it gives Yanchep and I have respect for the way in which complete power to the Minister. The Minister of the Forests Department has handled its responisi- the day and the Government of the day can force bility. I believe that the experience and the capa- their will on the whole of the State. I am quite bility it has demonstrated should be used and not convinced sonic Governments will be only too overridden as it is in this legislation. I would hope happy to do that. that the Government will accept some amend- 1792 1792ASSEMBL.YJ ments to this legislation and improve it and take However, I feel there is room for improvement away the dangers which I see are so blatantly and a need to include the safeguards that we re- exposed. quire. If the Government must go ahead with some form of legislation, let it be workable legis- IAs I said earlier, marine parks and reserves and lation and let it do what it is intended to do. It the fishing industry are both important to this must be accepted by the majority -of people in State. It is difficult for primary industry to make a Western Australia, and it should not hinder the living and contribute to the welfare of the State people who already have difftculties to overcome. without any interference from those people who show very little responsibility, but who become MR STEPHENS (Stirling) 14.25 p.m.]: I would emotionally involved. As an example, the person like to indicate the National Party's point of view who commenced the training of the dolphins at with respect to this legislation. It is not my inten- Atlantis Marine Park is endeavouring to establish tion to cover the ground which has been covered a marine park in the Eastern States, but because by previous speakers. of operation Jonah say that the dolphins should not It is important that we protect our environment be trained-the vociferous minority-somei people to prevent any further degradation, and it is even are enideavouring to stop the establishment of a necessary to have ways and means of marine park which would be of the same benefitl to implementing measures for regeneration in order Victoria as Atlantis is to Western Australia. to overcome the problems which have already oc- Nearly one million tourists have gone through curred. One only needs to travel around our State Atlantis and if these people are successful in stop- to realise how serious the problem has become. ping the establishment of a marine park in the Perhaps it is more noticeable in the agricultural Eastern States, the next thing we will know is that areas, but it is serious and it will take millions of pressure will be brought to bear to close a tourist dollars, or even billions of dollars, to correct, in a facility which is enjoyed by many. We know that minor way, some of the problems we have created the same people are trying to do a similar thing in for ourselves by the way in which this country has regard to circuses. That is what I am concerned been handled over the last 150 years. about. I am not being unduly critical of our forebears The Minister, who has total responsibility under because what they did was done in ignorance. this Bill, may get cold feet because a few people go They did not realise the consequences that would around with a lot of placards and make a lot of follow the actions they took. noise. Some politicians would sell their grand- I have grave doubts that the Bill before the mother if they thought it would get them a vote. House will enable us to do anything to improve the That is where the danger lies with this type of present situation. I am nor suggesting that it will legislation. if the authorities which have been make it worse, but it will not improve our ability operating for a long rime and have a wealth of to control the present situation. experience on which to draw are not given suf- Why go to all this trouble to change the existing ficientl responsibility. management system? It appears that the Govern- It is for these reasons that I express my concern ment. in a bureaucratic way, is more concerned today. The fact is that the authorities which have, about the management of managers than about on the whole, been carrying out a very responsible managing the environment and protecting our re- job for at long time could have been shored up a sources: it is more concerned about the manage- little and rounded off at the corners where it was ment Of managers than ensuring that the job is thought there was need for improvement. being done. I acknowledge that with our vast area and lim- Local government, which is the greatest govern- ited population it is obvious we have limited ment we have and which is the government closest Financial resources. Therefore, it is imperative that to the people, hats been ignored, and it has a we obtain the maximum utilisation of personnel tremendous contribution to make. It has some- and of the scientific disciplines that are necessary thing at stake because it is where the action is. to adequately manage our environment. I hope the Government will take the Oppo- I do not believe that by creating a new depart- sition's comments on board. My comments have ment the problems of personnel and finance will not been made purely on the basis of criticism be overcome. We have the opportunity to perhaps because I am sitting on this side of the House. I do Fine tune existing legislation and by passing minor not believe that I can be accused of doing that. I amendments to the existing administration of it, it have often supported the Government in what it will more adequately achieve what we all desire, has been enideavouring to do. and we will not create a new monstrosity. IWednesday, 26 September 1984]179 1793

I cannot see any reason that we should dispense For that reason the National Party opposes the with the Forests Department. It is doing its job legislation. adequately. Debate adjourned, on motion by Mr Brian I accept that taking the wildlife authority from Burke (Premier). the Department of Fisheries and Wildlife will have some benefits in that a National Parks and ELECT'ORAL: CHIEF ELECTORAL OFFICER Nature Conservation Authority will bc created. I Appointment: Censure Motion accept that, and I also acknowledge that the pro- vision has been made for marine parks and re- MR HASSELL (Cottesloe-Leader of the Op- serves. It was in 1974. when I was a Minister, that position) [4.34 p.m.]: I move- I introduced an amendment to the Fisheries Act That the Premier and Government of the which made a provision for aquatic reserves. State be censured for the appointment of Dr Mr Tonkin: You did not do anything to the Dennis Rumley as Chief Electoral Officer of Denmark water supply. the State by reason that such appointment was unwarranted, unnecessary, not justified, Mr STEPHENS: The Minister has been read- and politically motivated, and represents arn ing the misinformation which a certain local paper appalling political interference with the inde- put out, because in 1974 there was no problem pendence: and integrity of the Public Service with the Denmark water supply. In fact in 1974 I and the electoral system of the State. was pursuing a policy of trying to have a dam put It will be clear. Mr Deputy Speaker, from the on the Denmark River as a source for the lower terms of the censure motion, that the Opposition is great southern region water supply. That gives the extremely concerned about this issue, and in par- lie to the article which appeared in the editorial of ticular about the appointment of Dr Rumley. We the Albany Advcriiser. I do not think this is the would not be moving such a motion if we were not appropriate time to debate the misinf ormation concerned about the issue in a serious way. which unfortunately comes through the Albany Advertiser. Whether there is political bias I do not We have seen a number of appointments of a know, but many people in the area are beginning political or partisan nature made by this Govern- to suspect there is. ment. Some of them have been more open, some have been criticised publicly, and some have been M r Tonkin: In Favour of us or the Liberals? accepted without comment, even though they w4ere Mr STEPHENS: However, I have taken action clearly political. I refer to such appointments as to correct that m isin formation. the Chairman of the Lotteries Commission, the Chairman of the Greyhound Racing Control Mr Tonkin: Send me a copy of your reply, will Board, and the Chairman of the Metropolitan Re- you'? gion Planning Authority, none of which attracted Mr STEPHENS: Yes, I will do that. any comments from the Opposition, despite the very clear political nature of those appointments. Mr Jamieson interjected. But this appointment is one of a different Mr STEPHENS: I do not intend to reply to character from any of those which preceded it. that. I realise that at half past four we usually take This is one which goes to the very heart of the private members' business. I have only a Few com- operations, not only of the Public Service, but of ments to make. I was referring to the marine parks the system of Government departments. It is one and reserves, and including them within the which goes to the very question of what sort of National Parks and Nature Conservation Auth- Public Service we will have in this State in the ority. If they are to be managed adequately, some future. scientific disciplines will be necessary. The same disciplines will be necessary in the Department of I want to make a brief statement at the outset Fisheries and Wildlife. Bearing that in mind. I can of moving this motion about our attitude to the see no reason that we should not retain the present Public Service and the nature of it. I think that is Forests Department, the National Parks and the only fair way to put forth the basis upon which Wildlife Authority, and retain a fisheries depart- we judge these matters. ment. but have them all responsible to the same We have seen dramatic changes made to the Minister. Through at mechanism of liaison, per- Public Service of this State in the £9 months of the haps at director level, it would be quite possible to existence of the Burke Government. Those minimise the personnel, make the best use of the changes include a very significant pay cut directed scientific knowledge available and do the job in a to senior public servants and other public officers. better way than that proposed by this legislation. It was a selective pay cut, and it was unpre- (57) 1794 1794[ASSEMBLY] cedented in its nature, apart from comparisons the year. When the Government announced a few with the darkest days of the Depression. days ago that it was to restructure the Public We have seen the introduction of a significant Works Department to reduce Government oper- system of political advisers to Ministers, people ations in an area capable of being carried out in appointed because of their political commitments the private sector, it received our support for that to the Labor Party. There has been no dispute that change, subject to qualifications relating to man- that is a basic fact of the position. At the last power and the treatment of people affected. count the Premier acknowledged that there were However the Opposition is totally opposed to 35 of those political appointments in the nature of the politicising of the Public Service. We believe political advisers. in certain basic principles whieh remain critical to Mr Pearce: That is untrue. the effective administration of the Government of Western Australia. Mr HASSELL: I am telling members the fig- ures which the Premier himself gave me in a letter We must have a Public Service which is impar- in answer to a question. tial. It must be impartial in terms of its placement relative to the. Government of the day, whatever Mr Pearce: lie did not say there were 35 people political colour that Government may be. appointed because of their political affiliation with the ALP. That is what you are inferring. Secondly, the duty of the Public Service is to advise the Government of the day and ensure the Mr Clarko: You spoil your argument when you effective implementation of Government policy. say "infer". That advice includes advice as to the impact of Several members interjected. Government policy: it includes advice as to other Mr HASSELL: I am sure there will be more. options and the good and bad sides of the im- but there are 35 acknowledged by the Premier; 35 plementation of such options. Once the decision political appointees on the taxpayers' payroll, in- has been made by the Government, the Public cluding the State President of the Labor Party and Service has an obligation to implement it, and we the State Vice President of the Labor Party. That are of the belief that an impartial Public Service is system hats been established within the 19 months the best body to do that. of this Government. Thirdly, we must have a Public Service free In addition to that, a third aspect of change has from political appointments. been political appointments to the Public Service. Fourthly, there should be no party-political ad- The appointment we arc talking about today, the visers on the public payroll. If the Government of appointment which is the subject of the censure the day wants to have party-political advisers they motion, is not the first. We could refer to others, should be in the realm of the party; they should be and one of them, of eourse, is Mr Lloyd. employed by the party; they should not be paid for Fourthly. we see the proposals for a major by the taxpayer; they should not be involved in restructuring of Government departments in re- ministerial offices; they should not stand between lation to their functions and futures and the num- the Minister and the department or between the bers of people employed. Minister and the public. There is no place for that type of operation within our system. Those are the four areas of significant change which have been seen under the present Fifthly, notwithstanding those comments, it Govennient. Quite clearly, the Opposition is not should be open to the Government to make outside opposed to change where it is demonstrably for appointments on occasions when appropriate to improvement and for the benefit of all Western the Public Service and to exchange personnel be- Australians. There is no doubt that Government tween the Public Service and the private sector on assets can be better managed and better the basis of merit, need, and justifiability in terms employed, especially where Government assets are of good administration, efficiency, and modernity not required for the proper functions of Govern- in Government. menit and arc transferred to the private sector, It should be open to the Government to seek where the Government is not seeking to involve outside independent advice based on expertise, not itself in private sector business activities. There is based on political alignment or political affiliation. scope to improve the efficiency and cost effective- All of these areas should be open to the Govern- ness of Government operations by transferring men t. them to the private sector. There are needs for other changes in the Public These are really policies of privatisation which I Service in terms of the way it operates, but those have spelt out at Liberal Party State Conferences needs are better put aside for a debate on another as the basis of development of our policies during occasion on that specific issue. That basically is [Wednesday, 26 September 1984]179 1795 our position and the point from which we come to officers to conduct the poll, the counting of the judge the issue that we have raised by way of a vote, the returns, the completion of the election, censure motion. and everything to do with the election, including I turn now, having given that backdrop of our the printing of the ballot papers, their distribution, position. to the position of the Chief Electoral the appointment of mobile ballot booths and all Officer, What is the duty of the Chief Electoral the administrative work of the election, both in the Officer and what is his position? The starting lead-up to an election and in the conduct of an point is the Electoral Act, It provides in section 5 elect ion. that- In addition he is responsible for the mainten- S. (1) The Governor may. from time to ance of the rolls, the collection of names of those timne, appoint at Chief Electoral Officer who who are going to be entitled to vote at an election. shall, under the Minister, be charged with the He must be an efficient administrator of a depart- ad mi nist ra tion of this Act.- ment which has very clearly defined and specified That is the simple proposition that is contained in tasks to perform. He has a very specific definition the legislation. The elenients are that the appoint- of duties SpelL out in this Act, unlike other depart- ments are made by the Governor. Under the Pub- ments which have a broader scope for administ rat- lic Service Act the Governor is required to be ivc definition of the job. The scope of the job of advised because this is atpermanent head position the Chief Electoral Officer is very clearly defined under the Public Service Board. by the legislation and there is little doubt that the Public Service job description would be one of the We all know, even anyone who knows 'even the shortest in the Public Service system, because it is' rudiments of the constitutional system. that ap- so clearly confined to the Electoral Act itself. pointilents made by the Governor are made on the advice of the Executive Council and that the miem- One vitally and critically important requirement bers of the Executive Council are the members of of the Chief Electoral Officer's duties is to be an the Cabinet and comprise the Government of the objective and impartial decision-maker on matters day. of discretion. Some of those matters of discretion Mr Davies: Plus the Governor. determine the outcome of an election, the outcome of the holding or non-holding of a seat in Parlia- Mr HASSELL: I ami not sure whether that is merit, the loss or gain of a member, the fate of a correct. Is the Governor ai member of the Execu- Government; for example, determining the val- tive Council'? idity or invalidity of a vote. It is the Chief Elec- Mr Davies: I think he is. toral Officer who has established guidelines for his M r Bryce: The Governor- in-Council. returning officers on that question. It is the Chief Electoral Officer who sometimes has to sit in Mr HASSELL: Leaving aside the technicalities judgment on a single vote which is disputed. That of the appointment mnade by the Governor, in the height of the order of impartiality which is substance it is an appointment made by the is required of him. He has to deal with complaints Government of the day. made in the course of an election, sometimes made Under sction 5 of the Electoral Act in practical in the heat of the moment, about minor infringe- terms it is the Government which appoints the ments by candidates of one party or another. He Chief Electoral Officer and it is the Chief Elec- has to make a judgment as to whether they are toral Officer who, subject to the Minis- worthy of prosecution under very serious pro- ter-although the Act specifically says, "under visions of this Act relating to the eligibility of a the Minister" not. "subject to the Minis- candidate. ter"-administers the Electoral Act. That basic structural proposition hats been questioned. It has He has to determine issues which, as I have been questioned by the ALP itself with its pro- said, determine the fate of a Government. I have posals for the establi.4hmecnt of an electoral com- sat in his office during tense moments after a mission. and I intend to refer to that matter later. State election when such issues were being deter- mined in relation to the absent votes of the mem- I Wish to put on record the basis of what we are ber for Dale. I have been there with other seruti- talking about. The Chief Electoral Officer is neers from various parties seeing determinations appointed by the Governor to administer the Elec- made by a Chief Electoral Officer. toral Act. That is his duty. He has an overall and very special duty in relation to the conduct of It is therefore of critical importance to everyone elections, the issue of writs, the organisation of involved in the political system that the mnan who polling booths, the collection of votes, the appoint- is the Chief Electoral Officer should have the trust ment of returning officers, the appointment of ofall sides in the system. 1796 1796ASSEMBLY]

He has no duties under this Act or in his duty The provisions of section 16 underline the foun- statement to plan models of or to restructure the dation which I carefully laid in opening this de- electoral system: he has no role as an innovator of bate as to the position of the Chief Electoral new or differenit electoral systems: that is not his O ffice r. job at all. His job is to administer the law that It is not a position which can be equated with determines who sits on each side of the House and other departmental heads. It is one which requires whether certain persons shall be in this House. His the independence of a person such as the Com- duty is to administer a department the prime re- missioner of Police, the Solicitor General and one sponsibility of which is to gather the votes of the or two ot hers, I t is a positIion wh ich req uires a ma n people of the State and to ensure those votes are who has the capacity, the will, and the commit- east. recorded, counted. and distributed as ment to be prepared on occasions to stand up to required. his Minister and to politicians and to make de- Mr Tonkin: And under your Government, cisions in the heat of an election, in the heat of a 100 000 people were not on the rolls. contest, decisions which will determine the out- Mr HASSELL: It is vital to the system of come and livelihood not only of individual mem- Government we know that that duty should be bers, but also of Governments themselves. It is not carried out by a man with the dedication and a position which can be treated as if it were some- commitment of total impartiality which everyone thing that came and went like the headship of a in the community from all sides of politics is minor department. It is far too important for that. entitled to expect. It is on that basis that the Opposition has taken M r Pearce: No-one disagrees with tha t. such a very firm line as it does now in questioning the appointment that has been made. It is not for Mr HASSELL: I am glad to hear the Minister us to come in here and to seek to question the say that. professionalism of Dr Rumley. I have known him Mr Pearce: Of course we accept that to be the for some years and I have nothing to say about his case. professionalism as a lecturer at the university or Mr HASSELL: To underline the point that this about the studies he has made, the work he has is a very special appointment, a very special done or the electoral models he has created; those position. the Electoral Act itself contains a pro- are matters for him and the University of Western vision relating to it, and that is section 16, which Australia. reads as follows- Mr Pearce: If you have known him for some (1) No candidate, and no person holding any years, you know him a lot better than does the official position in connection with any Minister for Parliamentary and Electoral Reform, political organisation or election com- who does not know him at all. mittee, shall be appointed an officer M rTonkin: I have met him. under this Act. Mr HASSELL: That is my position, too. (2) If any such officer knowingly becomes a Mr Pearce: You said that you had known him candidate, or is elected, appointed, or for a number of years. otherwise becomes an official of any pol- itical organisation or election committee, Mr HASSELL: Perhaps I should have said that he shall be deemed to have vacated the I had known of him for a number of years. office held by him under this Act, and Mr Pearce: That is a big difference. sonic other person shall be appointed in Mr HASSELL: I make that qualification. But his stead. my association with him will become quite clear. Notice that the words used in section 16(l) do not Mr Pearce: The thrust of your argument is that refer to a person's being a member of a political his is fundamentally a political appointment. That party, but rather to a person's being a member of is not true and it seemns you know the gentleman a a political organisation. The significance will be- lot better than the Minister does. come clear when we comec to consider the precise position of Dr Rumley. Mr HASSELL: I repeal: I am not in any way questioning Dr Rumley's professional competence Mr I. F. Taylor: Is it defined in the Act? at the University of Western Australian in relation Mr 114ASSELL: "Political organisation" is not to any of his work, any of his academic work, any defined in the Act. It has to be given its ordinary of his degrees, any of the studies he has made or meaning according to what ordinary people would any of the papers he has written. The question I judge it to be. That is how a court would deter- raise now is a question in relation to his appoint- mine it in the event of a case coming before it. ment as the Chief Electoral Officer of the State of ( Wednesday, 26 September 19841 179719

Western Australia and in relation to his capacities MrT HASSELL: Indeed, he is an academic, and and attitudes in that regard which are relevant he is saying what he believes to be the outcome or because of the issues which arise as I have outlined his research-his view. them and on the basis I have outlined them. Mr Pearce: Are you against academics? I am assuare that Dr Rumley regards OUr elec- toral system a-, biased. That is his view; he is Mr HASSELL: I am not against academics. I entitled to live with that view. tried to make that point clear, in the simplest of terms, before I started to deal with this aspect, Mr Tonkin: tiIc would be dishonest if he didn't What I am trying to say is that he has a particular say it, view of the political situation and or the system Mr HASSELL: But it is a view which is politi- that he is being asked to administer, not on behalf eally contentious and certainly not accepted by of the Government of the State, but on behalf of members on this side of the House or many people all the people of the State, including a significant in WA who regard the systeni of the weighting of proportion of people who do not agree with that votes' in this State as, atlegitimate means by which view at all and regard his comments as politically to ensure fair representation in this Parliament. biased, even if they are not party-politically But he does not use the word "weighting"; he uses biased. the word "bias". As I said previously, it is not part of the duties Mr Tonkin: He uses it in a technical sense. of the Chief Electoral Officer to be a judge of the Mr HASSELL: Hle has%used it on a number of system, or to create a new system, or to have a occasions. I do not see the definition. predetermined view about the system which he Mr Tonkin: The definition is in the papers and operates. the definition is one used throughout the world by Mr Pearce: Does that mean when the Public political scientists and geographers. Service Board interviews a candidate it should ask Mr H-ASSELL: In the second sentence of one of his views on political problems in Western his papers, the following can be found- Australia, and should choose only someone who It is shown that electoral law in Western supports the status quo'! Australia contributes to electoral bias. Mr HASSELL: In answer to that question, I Mr Tonkin: He would be dishonest niot to say say this, and it goes to the question of the Public that. Service which I tried to explain before: The Public Mr HASSELL: That is the Minister's one-sided Service of this State has a clearly established view. system of impartiality and neutrality on those questions. No-one can deny that individual public Mr Tonkin: It is the view of any reasonable servants have a particular view on different issues, person. but the whole of the system is directed to ensure Mr Court:, Are you reasonable? that in the administration of the laws of the State, Mr 1. F. Taylor: How can you justify 90 years and the policies of the Government of the day, of bias? they should carry out the law and those policies Mr Clarko:- But what is bias? with the impartiality and neutrality which the system requires. The very point that we are mak- Mr HASSELL: In at later sitage of the same ing by this censure motion, in relation to the paper he refers to at '*population bias" and he goes position of the Chief Electoral Officer, is that it is on to say that there was or was not bias in favou r quite wrong to bring in a man from outside-a of various political parties. He refers to bias man who has a clearly established and I would say against the ALP and says- a biased political view-to operate the system. This bias is of course exaggerated at the Not only does he have a view with which I dis- Council level with the ALP gaining four in- agree. but also-- stead of seven seats, and the Country Party gaining three seats instead of one seat , and M r Bryce: Anyone who does not agree with you the Liberals gaining nine instead of eight is biased. seats. Mr HASSELL: -he has a very publicly estab- That isia political comment-at very political corn- lished view about this system. He has a very estab- mernit. lished view that he wants to change the system. and it just so happens that his view is totally in M r Ton kin: I-Ic is a poli ticalI geogra pher. line with the view of the present Minister, who has M r H ASSE LL: ItI is atcon tent ious com ment. been trying to fiddle all the electoral laws of this M r Pea rce: Hec is an academrnic. State ever since he took office. 1798 1798[ASSEMBLY] Let us go a little further in relation to Dr Mr HASSELL: Of course 1 do not-if there Dennis Rumley's views on matters, because when were any. Is the Premier saying there were any? talking about the office of the Chief Electoral Mr Brian Burke: They are objecting to racist Officer, it is relevant to know, when bringing comments. someone in from outside, what kind of political attitudes he might have when making a judgment Mr HASSELL: They are objecting to com- in an election on a questionable or disputed ballot ments which they consider to be racist. paper which might determine the outcome of a Mr Brian Burke: Nothing to do with the elec- seat. toralI system! I just wonder what the public of this State think Mr HASSELL: But look at the company the of a man who joins in an advertisement, regardless gentleman concerned keeps! the issues involved. A large advertisement ap- of Several members interjected. peared in The West Australian on Thursday, 10 March 1977 ait page 10. It must have cost quite a Mr Brian Burke: Guilty by association! sum of money to plaee an advertisement of this Mr Bryce: Senator McCarthy! size in the paper, It stated- Mr HASSELL: Amongst others are the names, PUBLIC STATEMENT Mr D. Midalia, Friends of East Timor: J. iermalinski, Tertiary Branch, Communist Party The undersigned consider the material in of Australia- the Orientation Edition of the University of Western Australia Liberal Club's campus Several members interjected. publication New Libido to be vicious, Mr HASSELL: -J. Parker, Secondary provocative, and entirely outside the accepted Students' Union- norms of political debate1 and note that such Several members interjected. attacks amount to a serious infringement of the democratic rights of all groups on campus Mr HASSELL: -and so on. P. Cooke, Sec- and of the community at large. We demand retary, TLC- an end to this witch hunting which can so Several members interjected. easily provide sustenance to extremist el- Mr HASSELL: -D. C. Parker, acting Sec- ements on campus and possibly escalate into retary, BWIU; R. McMullan, State Secretary. actual physical violence. ALP- The undersigned demand that a public Mr Bryce: Secretary of the National Labor statement be issued dissociating the UWA Party! Liberal Club from the outrageous sexist and racist remarks contained in this issue of New Several members interjected. Libido. We further demand that the UWA Mr HASSELL: -and so on. What is of interest Liberal Club undertakes disciplinary action is that this advert isement- against the individual members responsible. Mr Brian Burke: Give us a few more names! The advertisement wvas endorsed by a list of Professor Reid is probably there too! people. The list took up half the advertisement. It Mr HASSELL: -was submitted by the Com- is a very interesting list. I t does, of course, involve mittee for the Defence of Democratic Rights on one D. Rurily from the Geography Department Campus (UWA) and was authorised by A. of the University of WA. Parker. Mr Tonkin: It has nothing to do with the elec- Mr Court: He was attacking the UWA Liberal toral system! Club for saying something. How democratic was Mr H-ASSELL: It has a lot to do with a politi- that'? cal point of view! Mr HASSELL: They were attacking the Uni- Mr Tonkin: You would have done well during versity of WA Liberal Club for expressing its the Pctrov years. point of view. They expressed that attack by way Several members interjected. of a Press advertisement. The group included the M r Bryce: McCarthy drew this sort of stuff out. Communist party, and the man the Government is in charge of the Electoral Office, a man Several members interjected. putting whom the Government is asking us to accept as an Mr HASSELL: I amn talking about the office of impartial man; a neutral man, capable of making the Chief Electoral Officer in this State. judgments about votes and people's rights in re- Mr Brian Burke: Do you support the racist com- lation to sitting in this place and forming a ments of that issue? Government. [ Wednesday, 26 September 19841 17999

That is the issue. It is not his view. I do not Mr Brian Burke: In the Health Department. mind what his views are. This is a democracy. He Arc you going to start a character assassination of can have his views and say what he thinks. But Mr Coates'? Are you starting to go back into the that does not qualify him to be put in charge of the record of Mr Coates to try to justify the present Electoral Office. That is the issue. appointment?! Mr Brian Burke: The Public Service Board Mr H-ASSELL: I am saying that he was a thought it did. member of the Public Service. I also know what Mr HASSELL: Perhaps the Public Service the Premier whispered around this place, too. I Board did not dig deep enough. know how big and brave he was when he jumped Mr Brian Burke: What should it have done? up yesterday and talked about character assassin- Should it have gone back to 1977 Press ation. I found out about his snide little back-room statements? attacks on Mr Coates. Mr HASSELL: It might have considered that. Mr Burkett: We do not go sneaking around to corners looking for sneaky documents. chatngc from the accepted norm of having ex- perienced and senior public servants in that Mr HASSELL: I think the Premier had better position, there should have been special justifi- start thinking about what is going on. cation. Even the Premier's own documents do not Mr Brian Burke: Mr Pendal found it in the say that he is the person for the job. They say that toilet, so he is telling lies. he was the best of the external candidates for the job. Mr 1. F. Taylor: The men's or women's? Mr Brian Burke: That is not true at all. Withdrawval of Remark Mr HASSELL: That is what it says. Mr HASSELL: That is a grave reflection on a Mr Brian Burke: That is a misquote. Thai is member of another House and I ask that it be what the selection panel minute said. Read the withdrawn. board's letter. Do not selectively misquote the The SPEAKER: Order! It is against Standing Chairman of the Public Service Board. Orders to impute improper motives against a Mr Bryce: Senator McCarthy would be de- member of another House. I ask the member to lighted to know that his disciples are still alive and withdraw. well. Mr 1. F. TAYLOR: Of course I withdraw, Mr Mr HASSELL: It is not a matter of Senator Speaker. McCarthy or of whether the Government appointed a man as head of a Public Service de- Mr Carr: Everybody took it as a joke. partnient of the significance and importance of the Mr HASSELL: It was a pretty poor sort of Electoral Office. It is also not a question of the joke. officer being acceptable to the community as be- ing capable of exercising neutrality and impar- Leave to Continue Speech tiality. All I am saying about Dr Rumiley is that I seek leave to continue my remarks at a later his record indicates that that may not be so. stage of this day's sitting. I am not arguing that he is not entitled to have Leave granted. his views. I have no argument when he is doing the job he wants to do on campus. However, I do have Debate thus adjourned. a question about someone who has a precommitted policy position in relation to such matters as the COMMONWEALTH PARLIAMENTARY electoral law and the electoral system-a policy ASSOCIATION position which is a contentious policy Delega ics: Ma laysia position-being put in charge of the administration of that system. where important THE SPEAKER (Mr Harman): I advise mem- bers that, present in the Speaker's Gallery, are issues are involved. members of Parliament and their wives who rep- Mr Brian Burke: Mr Coates was a member of a resent 12 States of Malaysia. The States political party. You cannot be any more commit- represented are Selangor, Kedah, Serambom. ted than by joining atpolitical party. Sabah, Sarawak, Penang, Perak, Pahang, Johore, Mr HASSELL: When Mr Coates was Penis, Kelanan and Malacca. On behalf of mem- appointed to the position of Chief Electoral bers I extend to those distinguished members and Officer he had behind him many years of experi- their wives a very warm welcome to Parliament ence in the Public Service. House. 1800 1800[ASSEMBLY]

QUESTIONS Service Board satisfy themselves that Dr Rumley Questions were taken at this stage. was not disqualified from appointment by reason Sitting suspended from 6.00 to 7.15 p.m. of the provisions of section 16 of the Electoral Act to which I have already referred? That section ELEC'TORAL: CHIEF ELECTORAL OFFICER requires that any candidate and any person hold- ing any official position in connection with any Appoinimect Censure Motion political organisation or election committee shall Debate resumned from an earlier stage of the not be appointed an officer under the Act. It is sitting. incumbent on the Public Service Board, if not the MR HASSELL (Cottesloc-Leader of the Op- Government, to satisfy itself that at the time of his position) [7.16 pail: Prior to question time and appointment. Dr Rumley did not hold any official the tea suspension I was referring to the advertise- position with any political organisation. ment to which Dr Runiley was a party. I have suggested to the House. and I repeat. that the words "political organisation" are much Pointi of Order wider and more embracing in their meaning than Mr PEARCE: I ask that the Leader of the the words "political party" which are not used. I Opposition table the document from which he has am entitled to raise that question because of the quoted. advertisement to which Dr Rumley was a party Mr HASSELL: I will be happy to table it after and which was inserted by the Committee for the I have finished quoting from it. Defence of Democratic Rights on Campus Mr Pearce: You didn't do that last time. (UWA). That unquestionably is a political organ- isation. Does it still exist? Is Dr Rumley a person Mr Old: How weak! holding an official position in that political organ- The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! I request the isation or any other? Leader of the Opposition to place the paper on the Mr Tonkin: Which political organisation? Table of the House at the conclusion of his speech until the end of today's sitting. Mr HASSELL: The one which placed the ad- vertisement in The W~est Australian newspaper. Debate (on motion) Resumed Is Dr Rumley a member or an executive office Mr HASSELL: I will do that. I think the reason bearer of the Electoral Reform Society, or is he a it did not happen last time is that perhaps member of a political party or an office bearer in a Hansard borrowed the material: it was not any political party? I have been told he is not a mem- conniving plot. ber of a political party. I have equally been told I want to make two points: The first is to em- that his wife is a member of the Labor Party. I phasise that in making these points about Dr have been told that Dr Rumley was actively Rumiley's political views, affiliations, and activities involved in the last election campaign on behalf of I am not attemipting to make any accusations the Labor candidate in the Ctontarf electorate. against him or lay any charges against him, or to That leads me to mention some things he said. suggest he is not entitled to do all those things and Mr Gordon Hill: Do you believe everything you say the things he believes in. I am seeking to put are told'? before the House as a matter of fact and public record that Dr Rumley has an established political Mr HASSELL: It depends on who tells me and profile and view. where I get it from. The fact of that profile and Political view being I am raising the question as to whether the on the public record calls into question his eligi- Government has satisfied itself that the require- bility to be appointed as Chief Electoral Officer, ments of section 16 of the Electoral Act have been especially as applications for the position included met. I have referred to written and oral evidence at least two public servants who were qualified for of some activities and to a series of statements the job. Those public servants have a record of appearing in a newspaper called The Times dated service and involvement as public servants which 16 February 1983 in which there appears at pages would lead one to assume they have that objectiv- 14 and 18 quite a large article entitled "Election ity. neutrality, and commitment to the ideals of 1983: Changes may predict results". The article the Public Service which one would expect of states- them. No such evidence can be brought in relation Last week in an exclusive interview, re- to Dr Rumlcy. porter Michael Woodhouse spoke with Dr Finally, on this point. I put this question to the Dennis Rumley. lecturer and one of the Premier: Did he or the members of the Public State's foremost political analysts. [ Wednesday, 26 September 1984] 18010

Under the heading "Liberal Bias" the article clearly established position in relation to electoral States- matters. I think that established position is one The redistribution hats favoured the Lib- that is clearly contentious in a public sense. His erals by four to five per cent, Dr Rumley opinions are not purely academic arnd not purely says. That means that (on average) a four per analytical; they are a matter of opinion and a cent greater swing would be needed to unseat matter of belier. They certainly bring into question a sitting Liberal member than was needed his eligibility to hold office. I am not talking about under the 19X0 boundaries. The swing needed any other office. I am talking about this one. I ask to unseal sitting Labor members has (on av- the Premier: Where did this document come erage) been reduced. from'? Many seats have become "less competi- Mr Brian Burke: It came from the interviewing tive". Dr Runicey continues, meaning that a panel. I told you that yesterday. bigger swing is needed to ereate an upset. and Mr HASSELL: It is not marked on it. The fewer seats change hands for any given swing. interviewing panel States that Dr Rumley was the He went on to describe the appeal of the Labor most impressive of the external candidates. candidate, Dr David Dale, the man for whom. I Mr Brian Burke: That is what the interviewing understand, he wvas working in the election cam- panel said. paign. The article continues- Mr HASSELL: The Premier just told me that. Labor candidate Dr David Dale will have a The panel said also that he would develop the job unique appeal in the electorate, Dr Rumley using contemporary research to assist in redistri- says. bution and in the determination of fairness as it M r Pea rce: D id D r Dalec get elected? contributes to the electoral system. Mr HASSELL: No. he did not. Dr Rumley's Mr Tonkin: Where is he meant to be applying predictions were way out. his concepts to the redistribution system? Mr Brian Burke: Are you not interested in Dr Mr HASSELL: I am not talking about the re- Rumley's wife and whether she worked for some distribution system, I am talking about the elec- political party! I think it is relevant that we start toral system. I am reading the words of the to bring his wife into this debate and whether she interviewing panel. worked for somec political party! Mr Brian Burke: Do you know that the Chief Mr H-ASSELL: What about the Premier's Electoral Officer is one of the three com- legislation relating to the disclosure of the pecuni- missioners? ary interests of members of Parliament? Did that Indeed I do. That is very much say anything about spouses'! Mr HASSELL: a part of our concern about this appointment. Mr Brian Burke: I cannot remember whether it did or not. 1 would support its doing so, but that is M r Brian Burke: Why-because the Public Ser- not a question which relates. to someone who has vice Board says? been iippointed to the Public Service, for goodness Mr HASSELL: Because, as has been explained sake, nor to what his wife does. on a number of occasions, we are appointing a M r H ASS EL L: W hatt is t he di fference'! That is man with a very clearly established protagonistie the point I amn raising and clearly the Premier point of view about the system and how it works. understands it. The question arises: Why has he been Let me get back to the point about which we appointed? What is the reason for his appoint- were talking. I was asked about his predictions by ment? It is absolute nonsense and dishonest for the Minister for Education. In relation to Clonzarf the Government to blame the Public Service he said- Board by saying, "He has been appointed because he was recommended for the position". The Despite this Dr Rumley is predicting a very Premier abnegated his responsibility in that re- close contest with a possible narrow Labor gard yesterday. win. Mr William-,: He was not quite right. M r Ton ki n: The Pu bl ic Service Boa rd req uested us to process his appointment to His Excellency in Mr HASSELL: He was not right and the result the Executive Council. Under the Public Service was not even close. The predictions. based on a Act, the board doesn't recommended to the scientific formula that he uses, were way out. Government. It requests us to process the matter. The point is not whether he has a view or what In other words, it asked us to process this matter. those views are. The point is that he hats a very You ought to read the Public Service Act. 1802 1802[ASSEMBLY]

Mr HASSELL: I have read it. I have it in front Mr Tonkin: That is the process that you think of me. I think the comments made by the Minister the Government should fulfill? by way or interjection aire interesting when Mr H-ASSELL: That is the normal process be- contrastedl with what was said by the Premier cause the Government is responsible for the ap- yesterday. We will be certainly taking a close look pointment. at that variation between the two statements. So. Dr Rumnley was not recommended by the Public The point I am seeking to establish is not how Service Board. That is intriguing because, yester- the Government operates its Cabinet or how this day, in a very strong statement, the Premier told Government operates. I am simply seeking to es- us that he was reconimended by the Public Service tablish that the responsibility for the appointment Board. That is why he was appointed-because he rests with the Government. It does not rest with was recommended by the Public Service Board. the Public Service Board. The Public Service Board has a statutory responsibility to have a part Mr Tonkin: Read the minute. You have it in in the recommendation, because under the Public front of you. Be honest for once in your life. Read Service Act it is required to have a part in the the last paragra ph aind that will put it straight. recommendation to the Governor. Whether or not the recommendation to the Governor is made, it Mr HASSELL: I have it here. I know what is in still rests with the Government of the day. All I it. The point is that the Government is responsible am seeking to establish is that the Government for the appointtmcnt. not the Public Service Board, bears responsibility for this appointment, because nor the interviewing panel. It is absolute nonsense yesterday the Premier was trying to suggest that it and dishonest for the Premier to have done as he was the Public Service Board. did yesterday aind again in somec of the interjec- Mr Tonkin: You would be the first to criticise if tions this evening, ats I recall, to suggest that the we ignored the Public Service Board. appointment was made simply because the Public Service Board recommended it. That suggests that Mr Old: You are saying every recommendation the Government makes appointments that the they put up you will accept'! Public Service Board recommends, which clearly Mr Brian Burke: I am trying to think of a it does not. I would like the Premier to interject recomndrcation that we have not accepted. and tell us if he always takes advice in relation to Mr Old: Could there be a set of circumstances appointmieiits in the' Public Service. Certainly the that you would not accept? Government exercises influence in relation to ap- pointments., as it is entitled to do. It is the Govern- Mr Tonkin: If you recommended it. menit which has to take responsibility for appoint- Mr HASSELL: lecan think of one. ments and it is entitled to take at part in the aip- The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! pointmcnt processes: in relation to that I have no doubt wvhatever that it did. Mr HASSELL: I do not want to embarrass or make it difficult for the officer concerned. Mr Tonkin: What part did the Government play Mr Brian Burke: I cannot recollect one that we in that process? have not accepted. Mr H~ASSELL: The Government was respon- An Opposition member: You must have a good sible for the appointment and it made the system of working it out before it gets there. recommendation to the Executive Council. A Government member: Your stupidity has now Mr Tonkin: In that process do you say the gone into Hansard. Govvnmecnt should simply do no more than reject Mr Tonkin: You bleed like a stuck pig. or accept the recommndiat ions of the Public Ser- vice Board ? The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! The Leader of the Opposition has the floor. If anyone should Mr HJASSELL: Thai is what the Government read Hansard he would have some difficulty said yesterday. determining who is making the speech. M r Tonkin: What could we do? That is the role. Mr HASSELL: To make the matter quite clear, Mr H-ASSELL: I amn sure the Government appointments made from outside the Public Ser- knowvs vice aire subject to the provisions of section 33 of how' Cabinet and the Government work.- My recollction is that when appointments aire the Public Service Act wvhich contain these pro- made they go to Cabinet. visions. and I quote- 33. ( I) The provisions of this section apply M rTonkin: And are accepted or rejected. notwithstanding ainy contrary provisions in or Mr -IASSIELL1: Exactly. under any other Act irrespective of whether [Wednesday, 26 September 1984) 101903

those contrary provisions came into farce be- Mr HASSELL: I sat in this House when we fore or after, or contemporaneously with the adopted the Public Service Act; but the member coming into operation of this Act. for Kalgoorlie and the Minister seem to be having (2) A person shall not be appointed to a some difficulty in remembering what I said very public office the duties of which are ordi- clearly and concisely at the outset. My remarks narily performed by or within a Department were chat the Opposition was not opposed to or to be performed on behalf of a Department outside appointments to the Public Service or to except with the prior approval of the Board exchanges between the private sector and the pub- and in accordance with such directions, if lic sector, in appropriate cases, where it is to the any. as may be given by the Board. benefit of the system. The point is that there has been no evidence presented which establishes that I wonder what directions were given by the board the variation from the norm was appropriate, in relation to this appointment. The real issue is necessary or desirable in this case. Why did the simply to establish clearly on the record without selection panel refer to Dr Rumley as the most contest by the Government that responsibility for impressive of the externalI candidates? the appointment of Dr Rumley rests with the Government. It does not rest with the Public Ser- Mr Tonkin: Because it rated him equally with vice Board. It does not rest with any body or any Mr Chapman. person except the Government. Certainly under Mr HASSELL: It rated him equally with Mr the Act the Public Service Board has a part in it. Chapman'? Certainly there wats a selection panel. No doubt Mr Tonkin: Have you not got the panel's com- the Minister had sonc say in the choosing of that ments there? That has been tabled has it not? selection panel generally or in the specifics. I can- not for my part believe that Dr Michael Wood, an Mr HASSELL: The name was left out. We earlier Government outside appointee, was on the have been given a little bit more information. So selection panel purely by accident. Mr Chapman was the other applicant? M r Ton ki n: W ho do you th ink appointed hi m to Mr Tonkin: That was done to protect that that panel'? officer. The point is that of the two applicants who Mr HASSELL: Goodness nie! 1 suppose the were chosen equally one was inside the service and Chairman of the Public Service Board appointed one was outside the service. him. Mr HASSELL: Fine, that is very interesting. I am not interested in the technicalities of the Mr Tonkin: But then the Public Service Board procedures. If one talks. about technicalities it is looked at that and made a choice from those two the Governor that appointed Dr Rumiley. I am applicants. talking about the substance of what is going on in Mr HASSELL: I did not want to embarrass Mr the governmental processes. The procedures are Chapman or anyone else. He is a public servant. well known to anyone who has anything to do with I Still do not think that the Government has the governmental structure. given the Opposition an answer to the question of Mr Brian Burke: Are you saying I asked for whether Dr Rumley was described as the most Wood to be on that pa nel? impressive of the candidates. Mr HASSELL: I do not believe that Dr Wood Mr Brian Burke: I told you last night that the was on the panel for any accidental reason. interviewing panel put forward two preferred can- Mr Brian Burke: He was put on by the Public didates. The Public Service Board then Service Board. recommended and requested, pursuant to the Act, Mr HASSELL: I believe he was appointed be- that the Governor-in-Council appoint Dr Rumley. cause the Government asked him to be appointed I explained that to you last evening and I thought to it- you understood me. Mr Tonkin: That is not so. Mr Old: How patronising of you. M r HASSELL: -or because the Public Service Mr Brian Burke: They are the details of the Board participates as at matter of policy, general interviewing panel's view on each of the seven direction or attitude. The Government was moving people involved. Somec applicants were within the towards a situation in which there would be an service and some were not. The two preferred increasing number of outside appointments to the names went to the board and one name went from Public Service. the board to the Minister and then to the Mr Tonkin: Whatt about all your outside ap- Governor-in-Council. pointmnents? This is not new. YOU started it off. Mr Tonkin: That name was not changed. 1804 1804ASS EM BLY] Mr Rushton: It is the normal process. very sort of importance needed to the office was Mr Brian Burke: As the member for Dale said. cast aside because the Government had set itself that is the normal process. on a course of making an external appointment. not for any reason related to the position-elearly Several members interjected. that does not apply-but because the Government Mr Tonkin: You may have interfered with the was seeking to bring about the politicisation of the Public Service Board, but we do not. Public Service in this State. That is what the issue Several members interjected. is about. The Government has picked the worst possible department in which to do it. While Mr Tonkin: That is a slur on Mr McKenna and politicisation in a number departments may have on members of the Public Service Board. You ramifications and consequences which are not ac- assassinate characters at will. ceptable to the Opposition in a general or particu- Mr HASSELL: We do not whispe r about them lar way, when it comes to the electoral system, it is in the corridors-we do not do that sort of thing unacceptable not only to the Opposition, but also behind doors. to the community of the State. It is not good Mir Brian Burke: Not much! You took Mr enough for the Government to go about its task in Hunn to lunch at the Ord Street Cafe in regard to the way it has. the 6PR issue. This position above all should have been ap- Mr HASSELL: I wondered how long it would proached on the basis of seeking someone who take the Premier to come up with that. was, without question, a person who could be put Mr Brian Burke: I knew two days before. in charge of the Act and accepted by the com- munity from all sides- Mr HASSELL: Did the Premier? Mr Tonkin: You arc a whingeing Willie. You Mr Brian Burke: I am better informed than will not accept anything this Government does. you. Mr HASSELL: -without questions arising. Mr HASSELL: As at matter of fact the Premier That is the issue which is raised by the censure is. because the arrangcimcnt for the luncheon was motion. not made two days before-I did not know two days before. He really is Superman. Why is it that the Government has made this appointment? No answer or suggestion has been Mr Brian Burke: Thank you very much. Made by the Premier except for the lamec duck Mr HASSELL: The Premier is a pathetic ver- cxcuse that the appointment wats recommended by sion of Superman. the Public Service Board. He has no obligation to Mr Brian Burke: I do not know about that. accept the Public Service Boa rd's reconmmendat ion. Mr HASSELL: A simple issue which I want to pursue is at very important point about the future Mr Tonkin: Doesn't he'? Read section 29(l). Chief Electoral Officer of Western Australia. It is not somec discussion about who had lunch at the Mr HASSELL: The Government set out in the Ord Street Cafe, and when. It is a discussion hope that it would find someone who was sym- about wvhether it is appropriate that we should pathetic and, indeed, it found someone. He is sym- effect an external appointment to the Public Ser- pathetic to the Government's cause and he has the vice-a critically important departmental head record of being so. position-when the selection panel equally Let mc deal with one aspect of the matter which recommended a nan who was a public servant. is again indicative of the lack of good faith on the and presumnably one of sonic considerable experi- part of the Government in regard to making this enc. That is the issue and the Government has yet appointment. Let us look at the Government's pol- to justify why an external appointment was made. icy in regard to the Electoral Office and the Elec- It cannot justify it simply by saying that the Pub- toral Act. I refer to a document titled lic Service Board recommended it. because the "Parliamentary and Electoral Reform- Restoring Government was matking a conscious decision to Democracy to Western Australia", and presented make an external appointment in an area of con- by Brian Burke, MLA, Leader of the Western siderable sensitivity and importance to all people Australian Opposition and David Parker. MLA, of the State. noi just the Government of the day. .shadow Minister for Parliamentary and Electoral It set ottt in this ecriialI. sensitive area Reform. The document is dated January 1983. It deliberately to make an external appointment to is the policy on which the Government went to the the Public Service. It once again turned its back people and it has proclaimed it enough times. The on the experience, integrity, impartiality, objectiv- Government apparently believes in it. Page 13 ity. and neutrality of a senior public servant. The reads as follows- [ Wednesday. 26 September I19841 180580

An ALP Government would enact a new number of matters and the policy options it was Electoral Act which will enshrine the follow- considering. These are the very issues that the ing tenets designed to ensure the complete Minister claims to have taken into account care- independence of the electoral process from fully in presenting the Bill to the Parliament. It is any self-serving designs of a Government of the Government's claim. It claims to have taken the day- account of the things the Opposition said when Mr Tonkin: We will not draw lines on a map bringing forward this new Bill. This is one of the like you did. things that was said in the Opposition's Press re- lease- Mr HASSELL: It continues- An independent -and the efficiency of operation of that Electoral Commissioner process. would be appointed for a five-year term on the unanimous recommendation (with pro- Paragraph 12 reads as Follows- vision to break deadlocks) of a group- An Electoral Commission to be established Mr Tonkin: Since you lost, you are copying us. as a statutory agency. replacing the Electoral Department- Mr HASSELL: The Leader of thc House Mr Tonkin: That is right, we will do that. should stop spouting. It is a little different from the Government's policy: not very much but a Mr HASSELL: It continues- little different. -to control and manage the electoral M r Brian Burke: You have had plenty of time; I process of the State. think we will wind this up now. Paragraph 13 reads as follows- Mr HASSELL: If Government members will The chief executive of this body to be an stop interjecting I will proceed much faster. Electoral Commissioner appointed- Mr Brian Burke: You are going over the same Mr Tonkin: That is right. ground 10 times. Mr HASSELL: It continues- Mr HASSELL: I have not touched on this point -as a statutory office-holder with indc- before; it is entirely new. The Press statement pendenee and rights similar to the from the Opposition continued as follows- Ombudsman. -consisting of the Chief Justice, the Paragraph 14 states- Chairman of the Public Service Board, the The Electoral Commissioner to be Premier and the Leader of the Opposition. appointed on a 5-year term by an appoint- ments committee consisting of the Premier. The Opposition had clearly signalled its agree- the Leader of the Opposition and the Chief ment with those basic propositions put forward by Justice of the Supreme Court. the Labor Party. The only change was that we wanted to introduce to the group making the ap- That is the Government's policy~. ind I ask why it pointment a person of some importance to the has not been presented to Parliament'? system who was not mentioned by the Labor Mr Tonkin: It has been presented. Party: namely the Chairman of the Public Service Mr HASSELL: There have been 19 months in Board. which it could have been presented to the Parlia- Mr Tonkin: Who you now say is a political ment. appointment. Mr Tonkin: If the Legislative Council had Mr HASSELL: I query why the Labor Party agreed to the Bill last year. it would ha ve been has not introduced this Bill knowing that it has a presented this year. broad measure of support for it. Why is the Mr HASSELL: That is the silliest excuse I havec Government proceeding to appoint Dr Rumley to ever heard. It is absolute nonsense. The Govern- pre-empt the decision and outcome? It has nment has had several of its electoral change Bills proceeded with the appointment of an electoral accepted by the Opposition, as it well knows. commtsstoner when it has not bothered to proceed Mr Tonkin: Will you accept this one when we with legislation which it said was vital and which bring it forward? it could have brought into the House with a Mr H-ASSELL: On 13 July 1983-over a year reasonable expectation of success in having it car- ago-the then Leader of the Opposition made a ried. Why is this appointment being made? Press release. w'hich was widely publicised at the Mr Tonkin: Because Mr Coates retired and had time, in relation to the Opposition's attitude to a to be replaced. 1806 1806I[ASS EM BL Y]

Mr HASSELL: Yes, I know that. However Mr HASSELL: I remind the Premier that those there is no desperate urgency about his replace- who live by the polls die by the polls and in politics ment. as the Minister well knows. When is Dr all things change from time to time. Rurnicy taking up his appointment? Mr Brian Burke: Including the Leader of the Mr Tonkin: In November. Opposition. Mr HASSELL: The Government did not have Mr HASSELL: Yes, including Leaders of the time in 20 months to introduce those relatively Opposition, Premiers and all sorts of people. The simple measures? Premier is good at crowing: he has been crowing for a long time. However, increasingly we see the Mr Tonkin: You cannot bring in several Bills all real objectives of this Government being displayed involving the same Act because of the confusion it by its actions. We hear many words in some areas creates. As soon as this measure is out of the way that sound popular. However, we do not see much we will bring in the other one. action because the Government runs into problems Mr HASSELL: The other measure genuinely with the Trades and Labor Council and union goes to the professed concern of the Minister interests. We see changes made in other areas as about the electoral system. Why was that not bit by bit the Government surreptitiously seeks to introduced and why was this appointment made? I get away with more and more of its objectives. venture to suggest that the Minister had a pretty Politicisation of the Public Service is now clearly good idea-although I do not know demonstrated to be one of its political objectives. offhand-sometime before Mr Coates retired that Mr Tonkin interjected. he was due to retire. Mr HASSELL: The Minister is really pathetic Mr Tonkin: He retired early and suddenly. I and so is the drivel that he comes out with. think it was because of our 55 years-of-age retire- Mr Brian Burke: Don't get angry. Things have ment scheme. been quite friendly to this point. Mr HASSELL: The Government has had four Mr HASSELL: The Government has moved in parliamentary sittings in which such legislation on the Public Service since the day it took office; it might have been introduced. It can be seen on all introduced party political advisers, and interposed sides and on all grounds that the Government is them between the Public Service and the Minister. making an appointment of a political nature to a and between the Minister and the Government. It sensitive office. It is cutting across its own policy has moved into the Public Service with a series of and any possibility of consensus between the par- appointments in different positions: it has given ties across this House ats to what the Government j.obs to friends and relations. I refer to Mr is really up to with regard to the electoral system. Dowding and Mr Parker in this connection. Im- It is underlining our dccply held suspicion that the agine what would have happened if when Sir Government is up to no good in this area. It is Charles Court was Premier he had appointed one trying to fiddle the system all the way through. of his sons lo an office. Several members interjected. Mr Brian Burke: Or to his seat, and now he is Mr Tonkin: You have a cheek to use those threatening you. I agree with you absolutely. words considering what you did in Government. Several members interjected. Mr HASSELL: That is the very foundation of Mr HASSELL: Imagine if Sir Charles Court the problem we have with the Government in ever had appointed Mr Ken Court, a highly qualified trying to get anywhere in this area. The Govern- man, to some office in the Treasury. ment is seeking one way or another, by whatever M r Court: He would have made a good officer. means, to impose its view on what the system is, what it should be. how it should operate and who Mr HASSELL: Imagine what we would have should be where. heard from this Government. the then Opposition. We would never have heard the end of it. Mr Tonkin: Let the people have a vote at a Yet we have in this Government advisers in referenduni and see who is right. jobs, their wives in jobs, the father of one Minister M r Clarke: Will you do that on land rights'? in a job, the father of another Minister in a job Several members interjected. and it seems to be passed over, put forward and accepted as the norm. We have taken a lot in this Mr Brian Burke: If you think land rights is area and compared with what might have been unpopular you should look at the polls on the said in other circumstances, we have said little. popularity of the Leader of the Opposition. However, when it gets to the stage of fiddling the Several members interjected. position of Chief Electoral Officer it is not accept- [Wednesday, 26 September 1984]180 1807 able and we shall say something about it. We shall stated policies: nobody quarrels with that. All past do so not only tonight but also on as many oc- Governments. Labor, and Liberal-Country Party, casions as it has to be said before the Government have recognised this fact, and they have acted realises that this kind of hocus-pocus fiddling with accordingly. government and the system of government is not The system as it has developed contains instru- an acceptable standard. The Government, the ments within the-Government, there are built-in Minister and the Premier, as the Leader of the cheeks, not necessarily codified and expressed in Government in this State, deserve the censure of legislation, but there are customary cheeks and the House for what they have done. balances. Parliament is one of these-cheeks, be- MR MENSAROS (Floreat) [7.59 p.m.]: I sec- cause Parliament is the place for the expression of ond the motion and in doing so I mention that the public criticism. real reason for the complaint and criticism by the Mr Jamieson: You know there are checks and Opposition embodied in this motion is twofold. balances. Firstly, the Government's only consideration ap- Mr MENSAROS:. I do know that there are, pears to be at party political one. That being so it Parliament is the place for public criticism where effectively disfranchises about half the population the power or the Government can be checked in of Western Australia because everything it does is case it becomes dangerous or corrupt. in the interests of those people who either voted for it or supported it. The number varies but it Several members interjected. could be said to be more or less 50 per cent of the M r M ENSA ROS: The Public Service, wh ich is pou Iation. again built into the system of government, is another check. It is a check which, when policy is Secondly. the Government does so secretively. so in When it was caught out on this occasion it was executed, prevents impropriety, It has done the past admirably. It has always done it, and the suddenly ashamed of itself and denied the alle- Government knows it. It is its aim to assail both gations very sanctimoniously. It does not say these cheeks. openly that it is its policy that whatever it is doing it wants to follow the party political advantages. Look at the parliamentary system now. Why do we need shorter debating times? All Governments In addition to this, the Government knows it is before this were able to live quite comfortably doing the wrong thing. If it were the right thing it with 51, 55, and 57 members able to speak for at would be proud of it. it would not deny it. From least three quarters of an hour. Why did this time this point of view the Prime Minister of Zimbabwe have to be cut'? Why do we have to work with deserves more respect in that at least he says he is sessional orders so that the Government can cur- going towards a one-party State. But this Govern- tail debate'? The Tonkin Government and other nment denies it. However, it is doing the same Governments were quite happy without the thing, effectively. shorter debating ti me. Of course the Government is doing this without Several tenmbers interjected. revealing it to the people. Perhaps it is because i f it Mr MENSAROS: This is one respect where the were revealed the people would not like it. Government is working against these checks. The Opposition does not overplay its role. The The subject of this motion is the Public Service, Opposition knows very well that the Government which is another check. The Government wants to is elected, it carries po%%er. it has its duties and get rid of this check. Look at the appointment of responsibilities for administration and for execu- advisers. That means that in the view of the tive action. Indeed it has the power in many re- Government the Public Service either cannot ad- spects with at discretional right. But the Oppo- vise it, or the Government wants biased advisers. sition miust do what it is doing in the interests of The Public Service is a very good one. It has an all the people and not merely at fraction of the exemplary record compared with those of other people. States. It can advise the Government of the day, We acknowledge that the Government has the taking its policies into consideration, and it can power to govern. That is rightly so. because it give good advice. But the Government wants ensures atstable Government in this State. It en- biased advice. It is not happy with impartial ad- sures that there is a term of three years between vice, taking into consideration the policy of the elections. This term has never been abbreviated. It Government. is only in the time of this Government that there T he saddest t hing is t ha t t he Govern mentL den ies has been any talk of an early election. this. We have a stable Government, and -that is Mr Brian Burke: May I 'ask one question'? Your rightly so. The Government must implement its leader has consistently refused to say that the 1808 1808ASSEM BLYI system of advisers will be done away with on the fering: that is not interfering. The Public Service return of a Liberal Government. Board. in my experience, did not change so sud- Mr MENSAROS: It is no' for me to say what denly. What are I8 or even 20 months in the life the Leader of the Opposit ion proposes to do. There of the Public Service Board'? It Wants to CO- is no policy yet He hats often said, and I have operate with the Government. That is not inter- heard him say it. that he does not want to inter- ference. The board does not wont to be adamant pose anyone between the Public Service and the and say to the Government that according to past Ministers who are ultimnately responsible. Hec has experienc it wants this and that. said thaLt if outside people come in to advise the The Public Service Board establishes the Minister, they should not be on the Public Service Government's sympathies and wishes. That has roll. been so in the past and I am sure it is the ease Mr Brian Burke: You are talking about ad- now. That was the position when I was a Minister. visers, and they are not on the Public Service roll. When we were in Government. Cabinet had to approve not only the jobs of a number of the top Mr MENSAROS: They are paid by the people in the Public Service, but also those of Government.- quite a number of people lower down. In other Mr MacKinnon: They are paid by the public. words, the Cabinet minute was written and the Mr Brian Burke: Your understanding of your Minister made a recommendation. Sometimes he leader's position is that under any Government he would leave it open for the Cabinet to decide, but leads there will not be a system of ministerial that seldom occurred. advisers" However, the Public Service Board wanted to Mr MENSAROS: i am not saying that at all. I co-operate with the Government and it did so. It ani saying that no-one will be interposed between ascertained where the Government's sympathy lay the Minister and the Public Service: between the before or after an interview. Further, if a Minister public and the Minister. went against custom to any great extent-there Mr Brian Burke: That is not the ease now. could have been people like that-hec would not he surprised if, by the time the matter went to Cabi- Mr MENSAROS: I was advocating exchanges net, the situation had been made clear through with other Governments, such as the Queensland other channels. The position in respect of the Pub- Government and the New South Wales Govern- lie Service Board was not documented, but it was ment. When I wats concerned with mines- known, in particular, to the Premier and Minis- Mr Brian Burke: That is what we did with the te rs. PIA, and then we were criticised for putting on an M rJamieson: Are you implying- adviser. Mr MENSAROS: I am not implying anything:, Mr MENSAROS: Anyway, we arc criticising I am telling the truth. the Government from the point of view that it might be clainied that we do not have proof that Mr Jamieson: You are implying that the board would stand up in a formal, judicial court. That would only make a recommendation as to what the might be so. Government wanted, and that is not so. On the other hand, those of us who know the Mr Tonkin: You kept interfering with the Civil procedure or government, who know the Public Service, didn't you? Service-I had nine years' ministerial experience Several members interjected. in this-know that the content of our motion is perfectly right, with or without formal, judicial Mr MENSAROS: I was instrumental in proof. recommending the appointments of the co- ordinator of the Department or Industrial Devel- Let us have at look at how these appointments opment. the Commissioner of the State Energy are proceeded with. I have recommended a num- Commission, the professional heads of the Mines ber of appointments, not only top ones but ap- Department, the Under-secretary for Works, the pointments further down the scale. In every case I Principal Architect or the Public Works Depart- have consulted with the Public Service Board, menit, the Chief Engineer of the Metropolitan whether it was with the commissioner, his deputy Water Authority, and others. or someone else. In every case I consulted with the predecessor of the appointee. Since that time, two of the people concerned have retired, but the others are still serving the Mr Tonkin: I heard you kept interfering. Government of the day, and serving it well, as they Mr MENSAROS: I consulted with the officer served us. I am familiar with the process in this who retired. We did not have complaints of inter- respect and the reason I am slating the position. [ Wednesday, 26 September 1984]180 1809 and staling it truthfully, is to have it recorded proud of it, and rightly so. Then we have the crux accurately. There is absolutely no excuse for what of the matter where he said- has occurred. I do not use offensive words when I Mr Tonkin: make speeches in this piace, nor do I relate my I said that I often speak to members arguments to personal abuse as. unfortunately, do of the Public Service Board. most members on the Governmncnt side. Mr MENSAROS: Indeed, I am saying that the Mr Jamieson: Not much you don't! Minister does consult. However, he was quite hesi- tant and he did not say straightout that no dis- Mr MENSAROS: The Government seeks to cussion had taken place about the Government's take refuge behind the recommendations made by priorities. If any member of the Government had the Public Service Board, and regardless of the any decency, he would not be able to stand up and details involved, that. to say the least, is scurrilous. say straightout, "We had no ideas about Dr As the Leader of the Opposition pointed out, the Runtley applying. We did not want him really. He Government. in particular the Cabinet, is respon- only appeared out of the dark. It was only the sible for all appointments, despite the fact that the Chairman of the Public Service Board who Statute demands that the signature of the Chair- reminded us that there was this academic who man of the Public Service Board should be on the happened to have Labor sympathies and who Executive Council minute. Thai signature is there, agreed with our one-vote-one-value religion. He as are the signatures of the Ministers and the came from nowhere. However, we gladly accepted Premier. the advice of the Chairman of the Public Service Mr Parker: That is not true. The Public Service Board". Government members cannot say that Board makes a recommendation in respect of a and they know they cannot. The Government permanent head of a department. The Minister wants this appointment and it is responsible for it. does not sign the minute. but the Chairman of the Public Service Boa rd does. Mr Rushton: And no doubt it prompted the appointment. Mr MENSAROS: The Government's actions in this respect arc scurrilous, because they relate to Mr MENSAROS: If an inquiry took place and someone who cannot defend himself in Parlia- these questions were put to the Chairman of the ment. Public Service Board he would not deny that he consults with the Government, that he perceives Several memnbers interjected. its wishes and its preferences, and that he did so in Mr MENSAROS: Do members opposite want this case, me to sit down so that the Government can have The aspect about which its say'! the Leader of the Op- position was critical of the Government and the Mr Tonkin: Yes. area in which he censured the Government was in Several members interjected. respect of the Government's preference not only in the formal appointment for which it was respon- The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! So that the sible, but also because its preference went to a position is perfectly clear in the future, I indicate person who cannot fit the job. That is the case not to members that when a member is making his speech and he makes atdeliberate effort to ignore because this person is in any way mentally unfit or interjections, he will receive the protection of the does not have the qualifications for the position-far from it-but rather Chair. because he is biased and is not impartial to the extent this job If. however, at member wants to answer interjec- demands, both statutorily and according to cus- Lions, even though they be one or two out of 10, he tomn. will not receive that same protection.- Although we do not have any expressive written Mr MENSAROS: All in all, it is inconceivable Statute in this respect, it stands to reason that a to me, based on my experience over nine years, Chief Electoral Officer must he absolutely impar- that the Government should seek to push all the tial. The Leader of the Opposition referred to the responsibility for this matter onto the Public Ser- statutory rights of the Chief Electoral Officer. He vice Board or its Chairman. The Government mentioned a number of duties contained in the should not try to do that, because there is no way I Statute which the Chief Electoral Officer has to can imagine that consultation would not have carry out. It is a peculiar position in which a taken place. public servant must not only adjudge people, but In an answer furnished to me by the Minister to must also adjudge his peers to some extent-that a question without notice. he implied a great deal is, politicians and members of Parliament-d uring of consultation had taken place; he appeared to be election campaigns and on election days. 1810 1810[ASSEMBLY]

The Leader of the Opposition talked about Mr MENSAROS: It could not do any harm if these issues, but I would like to draw attention to those people had party political affiliations. Gerry another area where the role of the Chief Electoral Dolan appointed me to the board of the Officer is even more important. I refer here to the Churchlands College. I asked him why he chose fact that he is one of the commissioners who draws me, and he said that I was the right man. the boundaries within the provisions of the Stat- Mr Brian Burke: You recommended my father ute. to become a justice of the peace. Again I do not want to be misunderstood. The Mr MENSAROS: And why not'? I always had credentials of the members of the Electoral Corn- the greatest respect for the Premier's father. He mnissioin are unassailable. The Chief Justice and was the first man I met when I came here in 1950. Surveyor General aire impartial. It is not difficult, What I am saying is that there is a vast difference however, to understand how the commission between those appointments and the appointment wvorks. It operates like at board of directors where of the Chief Electoral Officer. As we have said, the chief executive is [lie Chief Electoral officer, the Chief Electoral Officer fills a position which and he presents recommendat ions. Would anyone requires him to be absolutely impartial beyond suggest that the Chief Justice and the Surveyor any doubt. General sit down and figure out the numbers which should fall into one electorate or another Even if I were wrong in saying that the Govern- and physically draw the boundary line? ment's ultimate aim is a one-party Government, the Government should not even consider for this Would anyone suggest that the procedure is not position having an appointment recommended by that the Chief Electoral Officer, having worked whomever it may be ini which there was the with his staff, works out a recommendation and slightest bit of doubt. But no-one can tell me that goes to the meeting of commissioners and says, no doubt attaches to this appointment. More im- -This is my recommendation. Do you find any- portant than impartiality with this appointee, he thing wrong with it?" That is the procedure. So should be seen to be impartial. Can a man be seen the role of the Chief Electoral Officer is doubly to be inmpartial-and he might be entirely inipar- important. tial-when publications exist that show he takes a I am not talking about the appointment to partial position in electoral matters and in polities, positions of people who have party political affilIi- a position which happens to coincide with the at ions or sympathies. Have members opposite Government's view'? heard me or any other Opposition member We are not complaining about people appointed complaining about Arthur Bickerton's being from the university camrpus to a Government job. appointed to the Greyhound Racing Board?! He is Anyway, sooner or later the situation w'ill change atdecent fellow. and, hopefully, we will inherit a university which Mr Tonkin: I-I replaced Sir Des O'NeiI. is free of Labor supporters. Mr MIENSAROS: The Minister cannot under- Mr Tonkin: Are you in favour of brainwashing stand that I am) the best of friends with Arthur students? Bickerton: to the Minister, that sort of friendship Mr MENSAROS: At least then we will have does not exist. places of learning where people will not be biased. Mr Brian Burke: Then you would find it very Many accusations are made about integrity. hard to criticise that appointment. Why can we not accept that people can have integ- Mr MENSAROS: We would not want to rity? Why can we not then act accordingly? criticise it. Mr Hodge: You are impugning Dr Rumtley's Mr Brian Burke: But in all credibility you could integrity. not do so. Mr MENSAROS: It appears fromt that inter- Mr NIENSAROS: Was there anything to be jection that what I have said is not understood or criticised in Des O'Neil[s appointment? is not wanted to be understood. Mr Brian Burke: We reappointed him to the There could not be another appointment where Lotteries Commission. the appointee's integrity and impartiality could be so queried as this appointee's when we consider his Mvr M [NSA ROS: That is what I amn saying: hi story. Dr Rumley's history shows that he cannot There was nothing wrong with it. Who appointed be seen as impartial. Any proper, responsible Mr lustice Olney to the Supreime Court'! Government would realise this and act accord- MIr Brian Burke: Who appointed Ray Young? ingly. [ Wednesday, 26 September 1984] 181181

Perhaps I could take a few minutes to comment political definition but an academic one, which on papers I have seen in the Viennese archives, reads as follows- because they are a good indication of what integ- Electoral bias is the extent of difference rity is. In the last century a general was appointed between the proportion of sears obtained in in the war against Bosnia and the allegation was an election and the percentage of seats made that he had misappropriated some moneys. allocated. The War Minister of the Austrian empire said that the general would have to hand in all his It must be clear to all members that it is possible accounts. The general wrote back to say that to have in a particular situation a bias that in no whatever moneys he had received he had spent way reflects the view of the person making the and that anyone who did not believe him was an statement. The academic definition of bias ap- ass. The file with his letter was shown to the pearing in Dr Rumley's paper, a definition which Emporer, who made a handwritten note on it "I states that electoral bias is as I have set out to the believe him". That was a tinie when people could House, is not even Dr Rumley's definition. The be accepted as having integrity, when people were definition is provided by G. Gudgeon and P. J. gentlemen and believed in integrity. This is not a Taylor in a paper entitled "Seats, Votes and the story I have invented. Anyone who wishes could Spatial Organization of Elections", London, Pion, read this in the Viennese archives. The story indi- 1979. cares what integrity is. The member for Welshpool Several members interjected. interjects, but I do not believe he understands Mr BRIAN BUJRKE: I do not believe I have what it is all about. ever met Dr Rumley. I am trying to put a serious Mr Tonkin: Europe is rife with totalitarianism, point in answer to the first of two points raised by the Leader of the Opposition. That was the point Mr MENSAROS: I think I have sufficiently that he repeated time and time again: Because Dr supported the motion and shown that the appoint- Rumley had referred to electoral bias, he was ment of Dr Rumley is patently improper. There- somehow or other politically involved in criticising fore. the Government richly deserves to be cen- the present electoral distribution within the State sured. of Western Australia. All I am trying to say is MR BRIAN BURKE (Balga-Premier) [8.27 that according to the academic definition, which is p.m.]: It is the Government's Contention that the not Dr Rumley's definition, but which is a defi- Opposition has made our its case in support of the nition provided in the publication to which I have motion very poorly aind that the motion would referred- benefit from amiendment, which will happen in Mr MacKinnon: Who wrote the publi- due course. cations-Dr Rumley? If we look to the substance of the motion, mem- Mr BRIAN BURKE: It was written by Mr G. bers will notice that it differs markedly from the Gudgeon and Mr P. J. Taylor. nature of the argument put forward in its support Mr MacKinnon: That is the definition that was by the Leader of the Opposition. used by Dr Rumley in the publication; is that In supporting the motion, he based his argu- right'! ments against the appointment of Dr Rumley on Mr Pearce: Because he is an academic, you two grounds: The first was the allegation that Dr goose. Rumley was biased and the second was that he Mr BRIAN BURKE: The academic definition had, in addition to some bias in respect of the states that electoral bias is the extended difference electoral system. a declared political affiliation or between the proportion of seats obtained in an leaning. I perceived the basis of the latter to be election and the percentage of seats allocated. firstly that Dr Rumiley had signed an advertise- That is not a subjective assessment of a particular ment objecting to a particular publication, and situation. secondly, that his. wife worked on an election cam- paign conducted during the last election in support Mr MacKinnon: But the definition was used by of Dr David Da le. Dr Rumley. The first matter of bias can be dispatched very Mr BRIAN BURKE: That simply indicates quickly. Remembering that Dr Rumley is an aca- that there is a bias, the same way as when one demic, in his papers the definition of electoral bias bowls a bowling ball there is a bias in the bail and against the ALP-and this allegation appears in a one may bowl it. I suppose, offhanded or paper entitled "Applied Aspects. of Geography" inhanded, whatever term is used. edited by Tanabi, University of Tokyo-is not a Mr Spriggs: Backhanded! 1812 1812[ASS EMB LY]

Mr BRIAN BURKE: There is nothing subjec- This broadsheet contained some of the tive about the academic definition that sees bias in most outrageous and disgusting material that fashion. so for that reason it is very difficult which has ever been circulated on the UWA to understand how the Leader of the Opposition campus. can turn away ihe academic integrity of Dr Mr MacKinnon: In what publication was the Rumley's definition. That is the first thing. letter to the editor?! The second thing that the Leader of the Oppo- Mr Pearce: The West Australian. sition Said was wrong in our appointment of Dr Mr BRIAN BURKE: It is in The West Rumley.- as to his character, let alone the process Australian and it reads as follows- which 1 will deal with in a moment-was the signature that Dr Rumnley placed on an advertise- A public statement demanding that the ment that criticised a particular publication. It is Liberal Club dissociate itself from the appal- important to note that the publication had nothing ling racist and sexist remarks, and witch- whatsoever to do. I understand, with the question hunting attacks on radical campus and com- of electoral distribution or electoral laws. ]I was munity groups contained in this publication, an advertisement that objected to the racist and has been endorsed by a wide range of student sexist overtones of a particular publication put out organisations, members of the academic staff, on the campus. Those other union radicals that the and off-campus community groups. Leader of the Opposition did not bother to refer 1 may very well have signed the advertisement had to. but who signed the same advertisement in- 1 been asked to do so. I do not know. I was not cluded Professor Jayasuriya. I have not known aware of the publication. I have no doubt that him to be a dangerous radical. They also included some members on the other side of the House, Mr R. Hallumi who was an Anglican Chaplain. were they aware of the publication at the time, Mr MacKinnon: What are his polities'? may well have signed an advertisement that objected to it also. It simply does not amount to a Mr BRIAN BURKE: I have no idea what his case, leaving aside all the other considerations that politics are. are far more important, that a man's character Mr Old. What is that supposed to indicate? can be assassinated on the basis of academic Mr Pearce: All these people are very respect- papers that he has published or on the basis of an able. advertisement to which he puts his name along with the names of other notable community Mr BRIAN BURKE: All I am trying to indi- leaders or on the basis that his wife worked on cate is that about 100 names appear here. Pro- some occasion on an election campaign. If we set fessor Jayasuriya is one person whom I know and I about assassinating characters on those bases, I would not claim any electoral bias as a result of suggest the only people to be appointed to any his signing this advertisement. Professor Peter position in the Public Service will be those who arc Reeves, who is a Professor of History, 1 think, is pure of heart, soul, or conscience in the future not known for any political standing or status. because, quite simply, there is no basis in those Mr Clarko: Yes, hie is: he is one of your mob. two fundamental allegations attaching to the ease He is a total socialist! Ask him. of the Leader of the Opposition for the conclusion M r Pea rce: lie is a professor of history. that was drawn by him. Mr Clarko: Professor Reeves is a committed I think it is important to refer also to one Or two socialist. of the other major points made by the Leader of the Opposition. The first was his constant harping Mr Pearce: These people are respected aca- On the fact that attaching to that part of the demnics in Western Australia. interviewing panel's; report that I gave to him yes- Mr Clarko: I am not saying if one is a socialist terday evening was the statement that Dr Rumley one is not respectable. was the most impressive of the external candi- Several mecmbers interjected. dates. That was what was said. In relation to the other preferred namec that was forwarded to the Mr BRIAN BURKE: Professor Temrahn also Public Service Board, this is what was said- signed the advertisemnrt, as did a number of other people. Referring to that particular publication. He! works well with people in a group, and let me quote 1'rumn a letter to the editor that was he was the most impressive of the internal published ait [he time the publication was candidates. distributed. It is from Graham Milner and Anthea Two names came from the interviewing panel to Parker. neither of whom is known to mne. They the Public Service Board. Surprisingly enough. saiid one was said to be the most impressive of the I Wednesday, 26 September 19841 111913 internal candidates and the other was said to be cations were received. Six applications were sub- the most impressive of the external candidates. mitted by people outside the Public Service Board. How can the Leader of the Opposition draw These applications were referred to a selection strength for his argument from the Fact that Dr panel, the members of which were Mr D. J. Blight, Rumley was referred to as the most impressive of Dr M. C. Wood, and Mr F. J. Campbell. the external applicants? He could not have been Now we are hearing the Leader of the Oppo- the most impressive of the internal applicants be- sition say it is no coincidenee that Dr Wood was a cause he was not an applicant from the Public member of the selection Service, panel, but he did not offer any evidence to support that lack of coincidence. The most impressive of the internal applicants He simply got up and said. "I'll bet it is not an was clearly at person whose name, along with Dr accident". That is all he said. There was no evi- Rumley's, was forwarded to the Public Service dence. He did not say, "I have been informed the Board. The Public Service Board did not forward Minister insisted on Dr Wood's being a member of without any endorsement the name of Dr Rumley. the panel". He simply got up and said, "I'll bet it It was not simply at ease of the Public Service is no accident that Dr Wood was a member of the Board's refusing to commiit itself to Dr Rumley. pa nel". The Public Service Board in its notification to the Minister about the appointment of the Chief Elec- Mr Tonkin: That says more about his mind. toral Officersaid - Mr BRIAN BURKE: We cannot object to his In the Board's, view there is no doubt that saying it. but we can ask him to produce evidence Dr Rumiley is the preferred applicant. as to why Dr Wood was on the panel, if that was not accidental. I had no knowledge, until I was Tha t is w ha t the Publ ic Service Boa rd sa id. informed by the Chairman of the Public Service Were we not to appoint Dr Runiley on the basis board, that Dr Wood was on the panel. I have no of the advice received from the Public Service idea why Dr Wood was put on the panel, apart Board, we would be in the position of saying. from the normal practice that is followed by the "Despite your view that Dr Rumley is the pre- Public Service Board in the appointment of an ferred applicant we are going to appoint applicant interviewing panel. I conti nue to quote- X'. With due respect to the Leader of the Oppo- sition and his arguments. he would have been the That panel was appointed, and after first person to complain had he been approached examining the applications, it selected seven by someone who had been a preferred and candidates for interview. A copy of the endorsed applicant of the Public Service Board not panel's report is attached for your infor- appointed by the Government, acting on the ad- mation. vice or request of the Public Service Board. In This was the panel's report, and it simply lists the fact, during the debate the Leader of the Oppo- seven applicants and gives the merits of the differ- sition referred with sonmc smnugness to somec knowl- enit applicants. As I have said before, the great edge he would not impart to us of one candidate play made by the Leader of the Opposition about who was recommended by the Public Service the reference to Dr Rumley being the preferred of Board, but who was not appointed. So on the one the external candidates is neatly counterbalanced hand when someone is appointed that the Public by the reference to Mr Chapman-whose name I Service Board, not half-heartedly, but whole- did take out of the material I handed over yester- heaniedly recommends, one is damned;. on the day, for obvious reasons, and who has been named other hand, when someone is appointed that the tonight in the same way. Mr Chapman was re- board recommends, one is damned for not ap- ferred to as the most impressive of the internal pointing him, and the absurdity of that situation candidates. must be clear to everyone. It is important for People to understand the process through which That makes symmetrical sense in the this matter patssed. recommendations that came forward from the interviewing panel. Mr Janiicson: If you didn't accept their recommendation anyway you would have to table This is the final part of the interviewing panel's reasons in t he I louse under the Act. recommendation- Mr BRIAN B3URKE: Firstly. advert isemnts The interviewing panel wishes to put the were called nationall and in TheL Wes( Australian names of two candidates before the public newspaper for applications from people who Service Board. These arc Mr R. J. Chapman wanted to become the Chief Electoral Offieer of and Dr D. Rumley. The panel feels that the Slte of Western Australia. Eleven appli- either candidate would do the job well. 1814 1814[ASSEMBLY]

It then speaks about the relative strength of each Mr BRIAN BURKE: All I am saying is that of the two candidates, Mr McKenna's letter con- the member has no evidence, I am interested to tin ues hear what he has to say. This report has% been considered by the Mr Mensaros: I do not think if you had a con- Public Service Board and I have also science you could say that. If you did, you would interviewed Dr Rumley again. say I am right. Then he says- Mr BRIAN BURKE: The member for Floreat In the board's view there is no doubt that has admitted that he has no evidence, apart from Dr Rumnley is the preferred applicant. his nine years of experience as a Minister. That The Opposition. led by its, leader, would say to us really does tell the story about those years 'as a that we should have said to the Public Service Minister and the practices followed during that Board, "Those practices you followed which we period. established when we were in Government should Several members interjected. not now prevail in the matter of this appointment. Mr MacKinnon: Can you name one political and we should cause you to choose someone else appointment to a Public Service position in this and to recommend to us sonic other name". That State while we were the Government? One'? is the untenable Mr BRIAN BURKE: I will touch on a few of Mr Rushton: That is wrong. If you had listened to the member For Floreat he would have put you the outside appointments Of the previous Govern- right. ment in a moment. Mr BRIAN BURKE. What would the Oppo- Mr MacKinnon: I hope you will refer to some sition have us do in that situation-simply refuse Public Service departmental heads. to appoint Dr Rumley? Mr BRIAN BURKE: Yes, I will. One thing I Mr Rushton: We know you would have want to underline is that the clear statement cer- influeniced, and must have influenced, the appoint- tainly indicates no duress as far as I am con- nient of Dr Rumley. cerned-it is not an inert sort of antiseptic docu- ment that Seems to be a letter written under duress Mr BRIAN BURKE: I understand what the or direction, influence or instruction, or by re- member is saying. Where is his evidence for saying quest, because it says, "in the board's view there is that? no doubt that Dr Rumley is the preferred appli- Mr Rushton: We do not have to produce it. cant". Several membe rs interjected. Mr Tonkin: "There is no doubt". Mr BRIAN BURKE: That makes it extremely Mr BRIAN BURKE; The other point I wish to difficult. make is that made by the Minister for Parliamen- Mr Mensaros: I said we might not have evi- tary and Electoral Reform during his interjection dence that could be presented to a court of jus- on the Leader of the Opposition. because the tice- Leader of the Opposition failed to grasp that the Mr BRIAN BURKE: I am not asking for evi- Chairman of the Public Service Board has certain denc to present to a court of justice:, I am asking obligations under the Act that preclude a for evidence to be produced by the member in this recommendation. in the stict Sense Of the word, place. being made to the Governmient. Having read to the House what the Chairman of the Public Ser- Mr Tonkin: Evidence of any kind. vice Board had to say, I do not think anyone can Mr Carr: This is atcensure motion. be under any misapprehension as to the board's Mr BRIAN BURKE: This is a censure motion. position. Pursuant to section 29 of the Public Ser- Mr Mensaros: What I said means, if you had an vice Act, the Chairman of the Public Service Board simply says- occasion to ask questions informally of the Public Service Commissioner, I cannot imagine that he 1would therefore formally request that you would say. "I made this appointment without ever advise His Excellency, the Governor-in- knowing what the Government wished or how the Executive Council, that pursuant to section Government felt, whether it was sympathetic to 29 of the Public Service Act the Public Ser- the Government or not. The Government did not vice Board recomnmends the appointment of even know about Dr Rumley. but heard about him Dr D. Rumley to the permanent head position when (he Public Service Commissioner made the of Chief Electoral Officer for a term of five recommendation". years. I Wednesday, 26 September 1984J181 1815

I refer to section 2901) of the Public Service Act interviewed. The Public Service Board made its which stats- decision, and on radio this morning the Leader of On the reconmendation of the Board, thc the Opposition said publicly t he main question was Governor may appoint any person, whether why someone should be brought in from outside an officer or not. to fill the vacancy in the when there was someone qualified inside the ser- office of at Permanent Head or the vacancy in vice who presumably was an applicant, although a Senior Office. the applicant was not named, and who in the So it is very clear 10 those people who can read the Leader of the Opposition's view had the requisite Act that the Governor-that is the Cabinet or the experience. Government-is unable to appoint anyone t9 that If we consider outside appointments, the Leader position unless there is a recommendation from of the Opposition stands on shaky ground in his the Public Service Board. criticism of someone from outside the service, be- The recommendation was clearly made pursu- cause under Liberal Party Governments these are ant 10 section 29 of the Act and there was no just some of the appointments made by the party doubt about thle Public Service Board's position. to which the Leader of the Opposition belongs: The Leader of the Opposition ducks and dives Les MeCarry-does the Opposition know where when he talks, about appointments from outside he was appointed from'? That exceptional public the Public Service. I can recall his words tonight servant came from the University of Western when he said that while the Opposition did not Australia to the Treasury subsequently to become objeet to people being appointed from outside the Under-Treasurer. Noel Sernmens was appointed Public Service there was a role for people being from the oil industry to the Department of Tour- appointed from outside the service. That is not ism. Bruce Kirkwood- what the Opposition Leader has been saying pub- Mr MacKinnon: What were their known politi- licly. cal affiliations prior to their appointment'? This is what he had to say during a radio inter- Mr Tonkin: We do not know: you did. view as recently as 8.30 a.m. today- Mr MacKinnon: I amn asking the question. The question is not whether the Govern- Mr Jamieson interjected. meent was involved in some way in particu- larly picking out this man .- Mr BRIAN BURKE: That is the sort of ab- He spent all night telling us that we were involved surdity one can get to. The mnember for Welshpool somehow, and that somehow or other we were draws the line neatly. Mr Knox, the Former Direc- fiddling with the appoitnient of this man,' yet this tor General of Transport was the Son of a Minister morning he was saying that the question was not in the Victorian Government. whether the Government was involved in some Mr MacKinnon: So what.1 way in particularly picking out this man, but that Mr BRIAN BURKE: That is the sort of guilt the question was whether we were going to have by association- an outsider brought in and put in the position of Chief Electoral Officer, and that there were quali- Mr MacKinnon: Does every son follow in his fied people within the Public Service with the fathers-, footsteps? Of course not. requisite experience available to do the job. Mr BRIAN BURKE: I do not know whether That is what the Leader of the Opposition was Dr Rumley follows in his wife's footsteps. saying this morning-nothing about the "political Mr MacKinnon: Which of those three public bias", ats hie called it this evening, of Dr Rumley; servants had known political affiliations before nothing about lDr Runiley's unsuitability for the their appointment? Not one. job. but simply posing the main question which he Mr BRIAN BURKE: I amn trying to point out saw to be whether an outsider should be brought the absurdity of the situation highlighted by the into thie service, when he believed-that is. the mnember for Welshpool. Leader of thie Opposition. not the Ptiblic Service Board-thiat there were people available within Mr MacKinnon: His interjection was inane and the service with the requisite experience to do the you know it. job. Mr BR IAN BURKE: It is the same sort of The Leader ol the Opposition is Saying that the argument used by the Leader of the Opposition Public Service B~oard's decision is. on the face of when he said Dr Rurinley's wife campaigned for a it, wrong simply because there was someone inside political party. I do not know wvhether she did, but the service who, in the Leader of the Opposition's because Dr Rumley's wife did or did not campaign View, Was capable of doing the job. The applicants for a political party. or NI r Knox's father wa,;s or from both inside and outside the service were was not a Minister in the Victorian G;overnment- 1816 1816ASSEM BLY]

Mr MacKinnon: What has that to do with the brought in and put in this position as chief of appointment of [es McCarry or Noel Semmens'? the Electoral Department when there were Mr 1. F. Taylor: You arc either thick or qualified people available in the Public Ser- delibcrately thick. vice with the requisite experience to do the job. Mr BRIAN BURKE: The argument is about as silly as that used against me from time to time Mr Rushton: And impartiality is essential. when I was seeking election within the Labor M r BR IA N BUR KE: The Leader of t he Oppo- Party, when people used to say. "Do not support sition was complaining about bringing in outside Brian Burke because he is Tom Burke's son and people to the service, but he was part of a Govern- Tom was expelled from the ALP". I was about ment which made outside appointments, three of nine or 10 years' old when it happened. I won- which I have listed;, the fourth was Dr Colin dered why people thought it not fit to vote for the porter. son of someone who was expelled from a party. I Mr Coyne: Would you complain if Bill Mitchell can see the sort of primitive reasoning that lies was made Chief Electoral Officer? behind the mind of some people, because the Leader of the Opposition said tonight one of the Mr BRIAN BURKE: That really is a strange reasons Dr Rumley is politically biased is that his comparison. The member for Murchison-Eyre wife worked for a political party in some cam- says Dr Rumley's position is comparable with that paign. of W. W. Mitchell. Mr Mitchell was a paid ad- viser to Liberal Governments. I am not aware of HeI produced no evidence of that, and I do not any position Dr Rumley has held in any service know whether it is true. It is true to say Dr within the Labor Party. and in fact when this Rumlcy should not be considered to be of his matter first arose, I took the trouble to ring the wifes political persuasion simply because she took State Secretary of the Labor Party and ask a particular political stance at some time or other. whether Dr Rumley was a member of the party. Noel Sernmens was appointed front the oil in- and he said "No". dustry to head the Department of Tourism. As far as I can tell there are some quite severe Mr M~acKinnon: With what known political af- differences. W. W. Mitchell is a prominent nmem- filiat ions'? ber of the Liberal Party and was a paid consultant Mr BRIAN BURKE; I have no idea. As the to successive Liberal Premiers, yet the member for Leader of (lie Opposition Said, the question was Murchison-Eyre wants to compare his position whether someone should be appointed from with that of Dr Rumley. outside when there was a person inside the service with the prerequisite quaifications. He did not Mr Dick Fletcher was appointed to the position mention the applicants, but this is what he was of Commissioner for Consumer Affairs from saying this morning. outside the service. Dr John Taplin was appointed Co-ordinator General of Transport from outside M r C la rko: Tourism is not a good exam ple. the service, and Mr Coates himself was not Mr BRIAN BURKE: There are others. We appointed from within the Electoral Department. have gone from Treasury to Tourism. Let us now He was on the attached list, having come newly go to the State Energy Commission. Bruce from the Health Department to that list. So by the Kirkwood was appointed from outside the Public Leader of the Opposition's own criteria, he did not Service to the position or Chairman of Com- have the requisite experience to be able to do all missioners of the State Energy Commission. those t h ings. Mr Rushton: So what?! Mr Rushton: He was a proven administrator. Mr BRIAN BURKE: So what is wrong with Mr BRIAN BURKE: Let me recap: The outside appointments? Leader of the Opposition demanded strength for Mr Rushton: Who is claiming anything is his argument from two factors. The First was the wrong with them? bias he said was present in the article published by Mr BRIAN BURKE: A moment ago 1 read the Dr Rumley:. the second was the political affiliation comments of the Leader of the Opposition who he claimed Dr Rumley had demonstrated, firstly was complaining about such appointments. He by signing an advertisement that objected to racist said- and sexist material found to be offensive by a wide range of people. and secondly The question is not whether the Govern- beca use Dr Rumley's wife worked on some campaign in sup- ment was i'nvolved in some way in particu- port of a Labor candidate. larly picking out this man, but the question is whether we are going to have an outsider Mr Hassell: I said he did. [Wednesday, 26 September 19841 181781

Mr BRIAN BURKE: Well. that Dr Rumley lation that he objected to. He cannot have it both worked on the campaign. As regards that aspect, ways. the Leader olf the Opposition did not produce any Let me make it perfectly clear that the Leader evidence. Where is the evidence to support that of the Opposition raised the alleged membership claim! of Dr Rumnley's wife to imply that Dr Rumnley was Mr Rushion: Are you denying it?! not fit to be the Chief Electoral Officer. Mr BRIAN BURKE: To the best of my knowl- Mr Hassell: I did not say that. edge it is untrue. Mr BRIAN BURKE: Then why did the Leader Mr Rushton: That is an escape hatch for you. of the Opposition raise the question of Dr Mr BRIAN BURKE: The Leader of the Oppo- Bumnley's wife's membership? I do not know why sition said Dr Rumiley and his wife worked on an he raised that matter of her membership of the election campaign for a Labor candidate. Labor Party. I do not know whether it is true or Mr Hassell: No. I did not. You should at least not. However, even if it were true, it does not seem get it right. I said Dr Rumley worked on the to be relevant to Dr Burnley's position in view of election campaign. When I referred 10 his wire I the imprimatur that the Public Service Board said my infornmttion was she was a member of the placed upon his application. ALP. The Leader of the Opposition, in naming those Mr BRIAN BURKE: Let me understand this. people whom he said were connected with the ad- Dr Rumley worked on an election: presumably the vertisement to which he referred, used the familiar Leader of the Opposition says he worked on an old tactic of guilt by association. election in support ora Labor candidate. Mr Hassell: Again you are being quite dis- Mr Hassell: I named the electorate. honest. I made it absolutely clear as to the basis Mr BRIAN BURKE: Where is the evidence to upon which those matters were being put forward. support the allegation'! Mr BRIAN BURKE: The advertisement Mr Gordon Hill: It is all hearsay. objected to the racist and sexist nature of a publi- cation which was distributed at the University of Mr Hassell: I amn telling you it occurred. That is Western Australia. The publication objected not perfectly good evidence. to electoral malapportionment. or electoral reform Mr BRIAN BURKE: Now we have the evt- in any way, but to the sexist and racist nature of a denee: it is a repetition of the allegation. If one particular publication put out at the university. It repeats it twice. or I suppose thrice, it becomes was signed by people whom the Leader of the stronger evidence. Where is the evidence? Opposition did not bother to mention, including As far as Dr Rumley\s wife is concerned. I have Professor iayasuriya as I said previously. It was inquired as to whether she is a member of the signed by people who represented a wide range of Labor Party. Is the Leader of the Opposition community groups both on and off the campus. suggesting that Dr Rumley's wife's membership of Mr Hassell: They were an interesting lot of the Labor Party disqualifies him from that groups. position'? Mr BRIAN BURKE: So far as that evidence is Mr H-assell: I did not say that. concerned, it is flimsy and shaky. It really does not Mr BRIAN BURKE: Why did the Leader of become the Leader of the Opposition to pretend the Opposition raise it then?! What did he mean by that those two props support his argument. it! I have referred to the question of bias. The Mr H-assell: Did I say that in my speech? academic definition of bias which was one peculiar Mr BRIAN BURKE: The Leader of the Oppo- to Dr Rumley has been twisted by the Leader of sition referred to the fact that Dir Rumley's wife the Opposition because Dr Rumley's political was a member of the Labor Party. stance is contrary to that of the Leader of the Opposition. Mr Hassell: Her involvement in that is as rel- evant as your legislation to require spouses of In relation to the political appointments, the members of Parliament to disclose their pecuniary Leader of the Opposition has forgotten the outside interests. appointments which his party made when in Mr BRIAN BURKE: Need I remind the Government. Leader of the Opposition that he voted against The Government has acted perfectly properly in that legislation?! He voted against that legislation accepting the recommendations made by the Pub- and he now wants to draw strength from the legis- lic Service Board. The Public Service Board was 1818 lxixASSEMBLY] quite unequivocal in its recommendat ions relating House has not been on his feet for more than one to Dr Rumiley. minute. It is extremely difficult for me, therefore. to determine what motion he is speaking to. I will Amendincni' to Motion wait a little longer to determine that. It may be I therefore move the following amendment- that the member is right. However, I cannot deter- inine that nlow. That all words after the word "be" in line 2 of the motion be deleted with a view to inserting the Debate (on amendments to inotion) Resumned following words- Mr TONKIN: Clearly, the member for congratulated on the appointment of Dr Karrinyop is not able to follow a logical argument Dennis Rumnley as Chief Electoral because I have been careful to say that the words Officer of the State. Further the House should be deleted. It is clear that the Premier and notcs that the appointment of Dr the Government should not be censured and those Rumley was reconinended by the Public are the words that we are deleting froni the Oppo- Service Board which, in its advice to sition's motion. Government. stated that: "in the Board's view there is no doubt that Dr Rumley is Mr Clarko. You were starting to talk about the preferred applicant'. congratulations. Mr TONKIN: I was saying the words should he Point of Order deleted because contrary to there being a censure Mr CLARKO: On a point of order, Mr Deputy of the Government, the Giovernment should be Speaker. I request that you cxarmine the amend- congratulated because it has followed the nient which has just been put forward with a view recommendations Of the Public Service Board. to seeing whether it is not equivalent to a direct I remind members that section 29(1) of the negative of the original motion. If it is, I take it Public Service Act states that the Governor may that it is not acceptable. appoint a person, whether an officer or not, to fill The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! The matter a vacancy in the office of a permanent head or a before the House is that all words after a certain vacancy in a senior office. In other words, it is not word in the Opposition's motion be deleted. That lawful to appoint a person unless the board has is the only matter that is before the Chair. I do not recommended the appointment of that person. find the amendment moved by the Government to Mr Rushton: That obviously takes place after be contrary to Parliament's rules. consultation with the Minister, the Premier, and the Chairman of the Public Service Board. Debate (on anwndmnns to motion) Resumed M rTON K IN: It is interesting to hear the mem- MR TONKIN (Morley-Swan-Leader of the ber say that and confirm what the member for House) [9,06 p~m.]: I second the amendment. The Floreat said. The member for Floreat clearly reason for deleting the words in the Opposition's indicated that he had followed a practice of motion is that it is quite clearly unfair for the politicising the Public Service by leaning on the Opposition to suggest that the Premier and the Public Service Board and interfering with its im- Government should be censured when they have partiality. The Leader of the Opposition said that been following recomimendat ions which arc not he did not believe in the politicisation of the Public weak recomnmendations but very unequivocal and Service and then the member for Floreat. in sup- strong recommendat ions that Dr Rumley be Porting the motion, went into the nine-year history appointed. In fact, the board said that, without of his term as a Minister of the Crown. He said doubt, Dr Rumnley is the preferred candidate. that the Public Service Board was a puppet of the Government. Point oI'Ordcr I do not happen to believe that Mr McKenna Mr CLARKO: On a point of order, Mr Deputy and other memibers of the Public Service Board Speaker. I listened with keen interest to your pre- would have been so pliable, especially in the hands vious ruling with which I totally agree. I wonder of the members who sit opposite. I cannot see whether the Leader of the House is now debating them moulding the decisions or the character of the matter that you said is the matter for debate; anyone. that is. the words to be deleted. I think he is We assert the independence of the Public Ser- debating the words of eongra tulat ions proposed by vice Board. The Act has been framed very the Government's amendment. deliberately. If we wanted to have a situation The DEPUTY SPEAKER. The clock has been where Governments appointed just anyone, we stopped. It indicates to me that the Leader of the would not have the Public Service Board, and the I Wednesday, 26 September 19841 181981

Government would stalk around and pick someone would urge the House to support it because the out and appoint him. This Act has been carefully Government is sure that what it has to do is stand framed to ensure that the Governor may not ap- squarely behind the Public Service Board and en- point someone unless the Public Service Board, in sure that its impartiality is maintained and that the first place, hats recommended that person. the special rights given to it. not by a Labor Mr Rushton: Why was Dr Wood appointed by a Government, but by this Parliament, are Labor Governmnti maintained: namely, that persons cannot be appointed to the head of a department inless the M r TON K IN: I have no idea: I had no connec- Public Service Board makes that recommendation. tion with it. Several memibers interjected. The Government would have been criticised Mr Burkett: Don't tell me that Dr Wood has very severely if, in fact, it had said to the Public not got the ability to be there. Service Board. "No. we will not send your recommendation through to the Governor". Mr Rushton: He is a political person. Mr Burkctt: When O'Mcara was made Chair- As the Premier said, "You are damned if you man of the Town Planning Board, was he politi- do. and you are damned if you don't". if the cal'? He sought preselection for the Liberal Party. Government accepts the recommendation there is You must think "we are mad. criticism and if it does not accept the recommendation there is criticism for ignoring the Several members interjected. Public Service Board and for politicising the Pub- Mr Burkett: Who is it'! Come on! Three days a ie Service. week for $28 000 ai year. You are incredible, saintly Cyril. I am really shocked at the admissions of the The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! member for Floreat. The Government rejects out of hand his assertion that the Government should M r TON K IN: We have had some eloquent tes- turn the Public Service Board into some kind of a timony of the kind of political appointments from puppet and try to make it do exactly what it the member for Scarborough and I thank him for wishes. his interjection. Several members interjected. MR CLARKO (Karrinyup) 19.15 p.m.]: I op- pose the amendment to delete the words as Mr TONKIN: We saw that the Leader of the proposed. They should stand. No governmental Opposition and the member for Floreat clearly system, whether it be a monarchy, an oligarchy, or were at odds in their argument because one said he did not believe in politicisation of the Public ai Parliament can operate efficiently unless it is supported in its executive and legislative decisions Service, but the other gave evidence that he had by a dedicated, highly qualified, experienced, and been leaning on the Public Service Board and try- Civil Service. Under the Westminster ing as hard ats he could to politicise the Public reliable is an impartial and Service. system. the heart of the system non-partisan Civil Service. Several members interjected. Mr TONKIN: The Governmnent is quite sure Traditionally Ministers in such a system do not that the Public Service Board is doing an excellent need to speculate on the political party allegiance job and I point out that Mr McKenna, the chair- of their civil servants. They take it for granted that man, wats appointed by the previo'us Government. they will service them impartially and without Yet, as soon as the previous Government lost partisan and political bias. This, of course, is in Government. in atfit of pique and a fit of temper, marked contrast to the United States where, fol- it immediately attacks the character of Mr lowing a presidential election, it is claimed that a McKenna. It is at disgraceful situation to suggest new President removes all the appointees of his that Mr McKenna is a creature of the Govern- predecessor down to the doorman of the White ment and will do whatever it says. He is not some House. petty clerk in sonme Government department, he is The Burke Government has indulged itself in a senior civil servant. He is a person whom I would Tammany Hall-style politics, writ large. Partisan have thought. as the previous Government supporters are in and everyone else, unless it suits appointed him, the Opposition would respect, but the Government's devious thoughts. are out. There we see that ats soon ats it loses office, it becomes are jobs for the boys and there are jobs for the petulant and makes these attacks on him. girls. Lately there have been jobs for the dads. I Mr Deputy Speaker, in accordance with your am not aware whether there have been any jobs ruling. I am keeping to the aimendment, and I for the mums, but no doubt that will come in time. 1820 1820[ASS EM BLY)

If I wvere a member of the Labor Party I would ographer'? Is there any Other State in Australia be aggrieved by now if I had not been given a well- that has a person as its Chief Electoral Officer paid job. who is an academic geographer? Most Chief Elec- Mr Court: You wvould know where you stood. toral Officers have always had one thing in com- mon, and that is a reputation for being sound Mr CLARKO: I really would because there are administrators. They usually have had long ex- very few left who have not been given some perience in the Civil Service. The essence of the position of advantage on the Govern ment payroll. job is to have such experience as a civil servant Mr Court: Some of their supporters are pulling and as a qualified administrator and to be seen to in $100 000 a year with a husband and wife com- be politically neutral and not to be politically par- bination. tisan in any way-to be completely above sus- Mr CLARKO: It is a serious matter that a picion in all regard. member of the staff of the City of Stirling, who I ask what experience Dr Rumley has in was the assistant to the Town Clerk-Mr administration, let alone administration in the Lloyd-has been promoted from a position that Civil Service. People have said that he has some was, I suppose, in the $20 000-plus figure to a administrative experience at the university. My $60 000 position. experience is that people of his level in the universities work in very, very small departments. Mr Burkett: And Malcolm Sargant on many that the people with whom they deal as lecturers occasions told mec that Tony Lloyd was one of the are not of the type that are trained in most talented officers ever to join the staff of the administration, as in the Civil Service. City of Stirling. You should contact Malcolm Sargant tomorrow. Mr Pearce: This is not an attack on the Univer- sity of Western Australia. is it? Mr CLARKO: I would not argue with th member for Scarborough. I accept that statement Mr CLARKO: I do not use the vituperative as being the total truth. However, if Tony Lioy language that the Minister for Education usually had not been a member of the Labor Party, I put uses in this place. it to members of the Government that he would As someone who has worked in the Public Ser- not be holding that position now. That is my argu- vice l am sure you, Mr Deputy Speaker, know that men t. system and did very well but these aca- He happens to be one of the people appointed by demics-and I have been a lecturer and I have worked for the Civil Service-both State and the Government who is a highly capable person., but many of the people the Government has Commonwealth- appointed aire inappropriate. For example, the ap- Mr Pearce: You have not been a lecturer at the pointment of Bill Thomnas as adviser to the Minis- university. ter for Planning is absolute nonsense. All that Mr CLARKO: There is a great difference be- fellowv ever did was to involve himself in riots and tween lecturers and civil servants by way of tech- rebellions on the university campus and he did no nique and administration practices. Very rarely study. He has no qualifications for that position does one find lecturers who have to be at work at whatsoever. He was an assistant secretary for one six minutes to nine. They dress to their own par- of the building workers' unions. I took a depu- ticular whim and I am not saying that is good or tation to meet with the Minister, who was most bad. They follow their own pattern of arrange- helpful, but while we were waiting to see him Mr ment and hours, and that is the sort of experience Thomas gave us some advice on a subject which he Dr Rurnlcy has. I am not interested in the Minis- knew nothing about. That is one of the examples ter's interjections unless he can tell me that that why the Government has committed a culpable sin situation is not true of Dr Rumley and he can tell in the appointment of many of its advisers. They me that Dr Rumley has had experience with a do not have the qualifications for the jobs. large department. If he can tell me that I would Labor Party members and sympathisers who do like to hear it. not have the relevant qualifications are being I suspect that his administrative experience in appointed at the rate of a flood, and that is what terms of controlling a large number of workers is the Opposition is concerned about. very small. I think it is very much of one type, and In regard to the appointment of Dr Rumley, I that type of background is not appropriate for a would ask the Government to advise me if ever person who will become a head of a Government before in the long history of the State a person has department. been appointedl as the Chief Electoral Officer This is not the First dubious Civil Service ap- whose claim to famne is that of an academic ge- pointment. Dr Michael Wood was appointed as [ Wednesday. 26 September 19841 182112

Secretary of the Local Government Department. Mr Burkett: Are you saying that Dr Wood is a He is atnother example of a person whose adminis- crony'! trative background I question ats being appropriate Mr CLARKO: I did not say he was a crony. for the head of a Statte Government department. It Tony Lloyd is an active member of the Labor is interesting to note that Dr Wood was a member Party. I have put it to members that he got his of the selection panel. Therefore, it is not surpris- rapid promotion because of his involvement with ing that he should have selected somebody with a the Labor Party. The Government has said that he background similar to his own. is capable and I have accepted that, However, it is Mr Pearce: You do not know how Dr Wood cronyism if he gets rapid promotion because of his voted and you cannot prove that he voted for the links with the Labor Pary. It does not mean that appointmrent of Dr Rumiley. he does not have the ability to do the job, but that Mr CLARKO: The Minister finds it necessary he got the job because of his affiliation with the to get angry about every point. I am saying that Labor Party. If the member for Scarborough both nien have similar academic backgrounds with appointed one of his daughters to his office- a similar lack of administrative training for the Mr Burkett: That would be nepotism, not Civil Service. I am not saying that Dr Wood is bad cron yism. or evil but that it is not surprising he would be Mr CLARKO: Yes, the member is correct in supportive of someone who has a similar back- that ease. However, if we move beyond that and ground to his own. consider the Premier's employment of Bob Mr Pearce: HeI may not have voted for him. Maumill's daughter in his electorate office, that is Mr CLARKO: The natural and logical thing is cronyism. for himi to support one of his own kind. The whole There is a great deal of this going on in Western business gets cosier and cosier. The next selection Australia at the moment and more than has ever panel of the Public Service will probably include happened in the history of the State. I am not Dr Wood and Dr Rumiley and if another person of saying that some of the people appointed do not similar background applies for a position we could have the ability or the qualifications to do the jobs finish up with the whole of the University of West- to which they are appointecd: some do and some do ern Australia in the Public Service, before the not. However, even if all the appointees had the Minister has had time to drive them out. The requisite qualifications and experience demanded Minister is using a whip to drive them out; this is by the positions, their appointments would still an alternative method using atcarrot to lead them represent cronyism. out. We have both methods operating at our alma Mr Davies interjected. mafor. We shall1 soon be i n t he position of having a fancy clock tower and green lawns at the univer- Mr CLARKO: The Minister for the Environ- sity but with no-one there. There is good reason ment will have his opportunity to speak in a few to suppose that Dr Wood would have chosen moments. I would be happy to hear him speak on someone of similar 'background and there is a the Farrington Road issue. We have been waiting strong likelihood thalt Dr Wood and Dr Rumley to hear his views on that subject, if he is keen to have been in close association for many years on speak. the campus of UWA. If not close friends, they Several members interjected. have at least been workmnates who have had a good The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr 1. F. 'Taylor): deal to do with each other. In a few moments I will Order! give an example of an association between them on one particular matter which was made public. Mr CLARKO: This Government has put fear 1t is highly likely that in an institution such as into the Civil Service. It has destroyed the UWA. which is not the largest university in the opportunities for promotion fr the ambitious and world, staff members, particularly in areas which talented civil servants. It will also affect those have atgreat deal in common in terms of academic people who are less talented and less ambitious specialty. work in close association. because those of us who have been in the Public Service know that when a promotion is made near M r Pearce: One is in geography and the other in the top of the ladder all those people below are polities. promoted along the line. The Government has Mr CLARKO: There would have been an as- maltreated the Public Service. It is taking away sociation. This Government is progressively filling from these fine, highly qualified people their career positions in the Public Service with its own opportunities for advancement. Many of them cronies at the expense of the talented and am- have worked very hard to obtain their qualifi- bitious members of the Civil Service. cations. When I was at university I frequently saw 1822 1822[ASSEMBLY]

friends employed in the Public Service getting off were returned to Government and started picking the trolley bus at four or five o'clock and going out a couple of people who were our candidates, it into the university to study for their qualifications. would be interesting to hear what members op- They were working for three or four hours at night posite would say about that. and that is vcry burdensome after a day's work. If If I had my way-unfortunately, I do not you, Mr Acting Speaker, were one of those people, always have it-when we go back into Govern- I congratulate you. These people went to great ment- lengths to improve their mninds and business train- ing in order to become better servants of the fine Several members interjected. Civil Service of Western Australia. Their confi- Mr CLARKO: -this type of appointee will be dence has been absolutely destroyed. It is bartered sacked on the same day. There will be no golden a little more each day. handshake. There might be a blackened boot ap- I refer now to the disgraceful 10 per cent pay plied in the right place. That is what these people cut imposed on civil servants. Only one good thing deserve. These people are blatant partisans, and came out of that. Many had a rethink about their political appointees. pol iticalI aFfilia tions. This job is an administrative one. There is another aspect to the appointment of Mr Burkett: I am glad you said that. There was Dr Rumiley and others like him that leaves a bad an appointment to the Town Planning Board- taste in many people's mouths. It is particularly Mr CLARKO: Ilam running out of time. strange and unfair that such people will be given the opportunity to take leave from their tertiary Several members interjected. institution, to grab the goodies from their political Mr CLARKO: My leader has quoted from Dr friends and, if anything goes sour, to be able to Rumnley's academic papers. They show that Dr return to their previous positions. In the meantime Rumley's views about the current electoral system other people have been kept from occupying those is that he is opposed to it. positions. That is a very bad side effect of holding There is one point I must make. If Dr Rumley the academic jobs open at the tertiary institutions. did work for the ALP-I understand he worked Mr Pearce: We are not doing that. for a candidate for the electorate of Clontarf-do members think he is a suitable person to be Chief Mr CLARKO: The Government has done a Electoral Officer? I challenge the Government to deal with these people and it is keeping the jobs ask Dr Rumley tomorrow whether he has ever open. worked for an ALP candidate, or for any political I refer to the case of G rahamn Hawkes. I am told party. If he has, he should have the gumption not that people think that is Graham Hawkes' to take up the position, and the Government position. He has had six months to prepare a 48- should have the gumption to sack him if he seeks page second reading speech for the Minister for to take it up. Parliamentary and Electoral Reform. I do not It is a pity that the Minister for Parliamentary know what else he did in the six months. The and Electoral Reform is not here, because accord- Government thinks that particular person will be ing to the Press he stated that he did not know Dr popped back into the Education Department at Rumley personally. I can advise the House- any time. I have read that is what is in the whether this is a personal association I do not Government's mind: he has only been seconded. know-on 6 June 1976 the Mfrinister representing All I can say is that the Minister had better be in the Labor Party, Mr Ron Elphiek representing the Government when he is due to come back so that Country Party, and myself representing the Lib- he will be able womake that decision. That eral Party, at the invitation of Dr Rumley, went to example is contradictory to what the Minister said Rottnest. We debated the question of electoral a moment ago. systems-in effect electoral boundaries, and one- Mr Pearce: I said we did not have any control vote-one-value. The Minister, Mr Tonkin, sat at over that. Mr Hawkes is an officer on secondment. the same luncheon table with Dr Rumley. as did 1, and as did members of his family. M r C LA RKO: He certainly was a Labor Party candidate: I think he was a vice president of the Several members interjected. Minister's party. H-e certainly abused The West Mr CLARKO: I do not know whether that A ustralia n edi torialI colu mns for a decade t ryi ng to means he knows him personally. I would like to push his ideas on what the electoral system of ask the Minister whether that is the only occasion Western Australia should be. At least he has been on which he has met Dr Rumley. Does he not rewarded by way of a bit more cronyism. If we think that is a personal association with him'! [Wednesday, 26 September 19841 121823

I would accept his statement on that matter. It Mr Rushton: Who is the person responsible for is important to bring this to the notice of the appointing a sensitive person to a sensitive area'? House, because in this debate the Minister turns Mr PEARCE: The Government appointed the out badly. nominee of the Public Service Board, who was MR PEARCE (Armadale -Minister for Edu- arrived at through a process over which the cation) I9.35 p.m.]: There are a couple of issues Government had no overt or covert control. which need to be clarified. The first and simple Mr Hassell: After all these hours or debate one is this: The Government has taken the neither you nor any of your colleagues, including recommendation of the Public Service Board in the Premier, has given one reason of substance for appointing Dr Ruin Fey to this position. this outside appointment being made. Mr Hassell: What a pathetic argument. Mr PEARCE: We have. We have submitted a Several members interjected. substantial reason, and that is that he was the Mr PEARCE: It is an interesting argument. person recommended by the Public Service Board. because I cannot remnember- and I ask the mem- There can be no more substantial reason for the ber for Welshpool. who has been in this House appointment. longer than anybody, whether he can remem- Mir Hassell: You clearly did not understand the ber-an occasion on which the Government has argument I put to the House. tabled documents which demonstrate conclusively Mr PEARCE: The argument the Leader of the that a particular recommendation was made by Opposition put was that the Public Service Board the Pu blic Service Boa rd. I t has not been t he prac- should have recommended somebody else. tice in my knowledge for Governnients to do that, but in fact the Premier has done it on this oc- Mr H-assell: No, it was not. casion. Mr PEARCE: Yes, it was precisely that. I ask the member for Welshpool whether he can Mr Rushton: That was not the argument. remember an occasion when such documents have Mr PEARCE: The Government accepts the re- been tabled previously. sponsibility, but the Government has indicated to Mr Jamieson: It is the choice of the Public the House and to the people that we appointed the Service Board. person nominated by the Public Service Board. Mr PEARCE: That is the case. In fact, the SeveralI members interjected. recommendation of Dr Rumley, as is indicated in Mr PEARCE: If we had done anything else, as the amendment which I am supporting, was on the the Premier rightly indicated, if we had nominated recommendation of the Public Service Board. I for this position someone other than the nominee agree with the Leader of the Opposition-and the of the Public Service Board, the screams of the Government agrees-in the points that he made Leader of the Opposition would have been heard earlier in his speech about the need for impar- not only throughout Western Australia, but on the tiality in this position, the need for a person who is eastern seaboard as wetl. The implication was that outside the political process, and for a lack of we were trying to interfere with the process by participation by political people in making that nominating somebody other than the person appolimnt. All the Government says in answer nominated through the normal channels. to that is that is precisely the path we have fol- lowed with regard to this appointment. A selection Several members interjected. panel of three persons was set op to interview Mr PEARCE: That is the fact of the matter. applicants. The Government did not nominate any Let Me tell the House a couple of other things person to that selection panel. The selection panel about the personal knowledge of Dr Rumley by was set up by the Public Service Board. The members of the Cabinet who rubber-stamped the recommiendations of the selection panel- Public Service Board appointment. I can remem- Mr Rushton: What part did the Government ber the Minister for Parlianmentary and Electoral play behind the scenes'? Reform saying to me. "Do you know Dr Mr PEARCE: The Government played no part Rumley?' and indicating that he had met him behind the scenes. I ask the member for Dale. the once or twice but did not have any personal ability Leader of the Opposition and others to reflect on to judge whether the Public Service Board in his why they, are criticising the Government. view had made the right appointment. I have met Dr Rumley on half-a-dozen occasions, because he Several menmbers interjected. is a member of the executive of the Academic .Mr PEARCE: Members opposite think they are Staff Association of the University of Western eriticising the Government. Australia. 1824 1fl24ASSEM BLY)

Mr Clarko: Do you consider you know him per- Mr Clarko: That is nonsense. That is false. sonally? M r Tonkin: Tell us more. Mr PEARCE: 1 do not. My conversations with Mr PEARCE: The member for Karrinyup per- him have probably been shortcr than those the sonally interfered in the appointment of an officer member for Karrinyup had with him at the lunch- to director status who is a member of the Liberal eon at Roitnest back in 1976, 1 would have had Party and who speaks frequently at Liberal Party less than 10 minutes' conversation with him in conventions with regard to education at director groups on the half-dozen occasions 1 have met level, against the prevailing opinion inside the him. I could not say one way or the other what his Education Department. The member for attitude on anything would be. Karrinyup appointed someone who has caused me Mr MacKinnon: I think you could say what his many problems since. aittitude on electoral reform was. Mr Clarko: All I can say is you are not being Mr PEARCE: I could not say that. I have not [air to your officers. Numerous appointments were discussed it with him. made and t here would be appointees who were not Mr MacKinnon: He has been making public in the Liberal Party. statements about it since 1976. Mr PEARCE: There was one particular ap- Mr PEARCE: As an academic, he wrote an pointee who, it is clearly understood around the article in a publication produced by the Politics Education Department- Department of the University of Western Mr MacKinnon: Who does not happen to agree Australia with regard to the 1977 election, refer- with your views. ring to t he electoral geography of the Perth metro- politan area. That was an academic work and M r Clarko: Do you have any evidence of this? doubtless members opposite have read it. Mr PEARCE: I do not know how things worked MrClarko: Do YOU mean the 1974 election? when the member for Karrinyup was the Minister, but it does not matter in the Education Depart- Mr PEARCE: It 'night have been. I thought it ment whether people agree with my views. They was 1977. are free to advise as they like, but in the end the Mr Clarko. That is the one where he sets out decisions are made by the Minister and they are Karrinyup. Perth. and Florat- implemented by the people employed to do that. Mr PEARCE: That is right. It was purely an Mr MacKinnon. You cold us he caused you academic work. trouble. Mr Clarko: I did not think much of it because Mr PEARCE: Because some of the policies do he missed some of the basic points when making not get implemented and letters take three months academic statements. He missed the fact that to answer. there are old candidates and new candidates. Mr MacKinnon: Who is in charge? Mr Carr: He missed the magnetic appeal of the member for Karrinyup! Mr PEARCE: I am in charge and things get done, too. M r PEARCE: That is easy to overlook. Mr MacKinnon: No wonder I am not getting The simple [act is that Governments ought not any action. to interfere with the process of appointment to important and crucial Public Service positions. Mr Ciarko: Do you have any evidence of this or Everyone accepts that, and the Government has is it just hearsay! not interfered with the process in this ease, be- Mr PEARCE: The former Minister for Edu- cause all it has done is to appoint the nominee of cation personally interfered to ensure that a memn- the Public Service Board. her of his political party, a person from his neck of Mr Hassell: It was not a nominee: it was a the woods, was appointed to a director's position in recommendation. the Education Department. Mr PEARCE: Well, a recommendation then. Mr Clarko: Do you have any evidence of that'? That is different from the process which operated Mr PEARCE: I can name the person, but I do when the present Opposition was in Government, not intend to. because 1 can tell the House that when the mem- ber for Karrinyup was Minister for Education he Mr Clarko: I am not talking about naming. Do interfered in the process of appointment of officers you have any evidence? to senior positions in the Education Department. Mr PEARCE: I do not intend to name the per- favouring members of the Liberal Party. son, because it is not my intention to do what the I Wednesday. 26 September 1984] 182582

Opposition has done: tht is. 10 smear individuals for 24 hours a day but only between the hours of who are i n pu blic offrice. 9.00 a.m. and 4.00 p.m. I insisted chat it be open Mr Clarko: You have just done ii. Read the from 8.45 am. to 4.45 p.m.- Hansard. Mr Clarko: That is not liberating it. Mr PEARCE: I did not name anyone. Mr PEARCE: -in order to allow people a bit Mr Clarko: But you can smear people without of time before and after work. However, I took the naming them. word of the people in the Education Department. Mr PEARCE: The member for Karrinyup A year after that limited, rather than complete, knows who I mean. The House saw how liberation of the lirt, the security people said to thoroughly thc member for Karrinyup blushed me. "Look, will you agree to liberating this lift 24 when I made that point. hours a day because it is causing real trouble Mr Clarko: You are going on hearsay. having to turn the damn thing on and off all the Mr PEARCE: It is more than hearsay. If the time?" I asked;, "What happened about these members like. i shall table the file. strange security reasons?" They said, "What se- The lift is now Mr Clarko: You can do what you like. You just curity reasons would they be?" open 24 hours a day. I learnt a real lesson about said a moment ago. "I am not here to smear bureaucracy in respect of that matter;, that is, we people" and yet you are doing exactly that. should not believe what we are told first time Mr Tonkin: You can't smear a person without around. That lift is open 24 hours a day; it is naming him. causing no great difficulty; I have not yet been Mr Carr: You have just had your 20 minutes. assassinated. How about letting someone else have a go? Mr Clarko: I was told there were security Mr Clarko: Didn't you hear him interject on me reasons- and on others'? M r PEA R CE: I t is obvious one of us is sma rter Mr PEARCE: If the member (or Karrinyup than the other. wants to press this matter- Mr Clarko: I am not pressing it. Don't threaten. The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Perhaps it is time we returned to the motion. Mr Tonkin: I'llI bet you aren't! Mr PEARCE: In conclusion. I want to give this Mr PEA RCE: -let himi ask a question at ques- warning to the Opposition: If it intends to follow tion time tomorrow evening and I shall come into te path of smearing every person who is the House with a file. I shall name the officer appointed to any Public Service position under this concerned and table the file. Government, then it is following a path to self- Mr Clarko: And you said a moment ago that destruction. Clearly the attitude the Opposition is you don't smear people! taking is this: "if you cannot prove anything. Mr PEARCE: If the member for Karrinyup throw a bit of mud, because, if you throw enough asks the question. I will provide the information. mud, some mud sticks". That is widely known and we will find how sincere the member for around Australia as the "Peacock principle". Karrinyup is by whether- Mr Clarko: And that is what would happen to M rCla rko: You are obviously mendacious. you if you tabled one File. Mr PEARCE:-hc asks the question come Mr PEARCE: The member for Karrinyup can question time tomnorrow night. ask the question- Mr Clarko: By the way, is your lift open 24 Mr Clarko: Because we would ask you to table hours a day?! several others. Mr PEARCE: Yes, it s. Mr PEARCE: The member for Karrinyup can M r Cla rko: It is not. You told me- ask all he likes. Mr PEARCE: It is open 24 hours a day, although that subject is irrelevant to this debate. Mr Clarko: You would just use it to suit your- self. You would not follow a principle. That is Mr Clarko: That is not what you said before. what you said to me about two weeks ago when What you said you would do did not happen. you threatened to put up a file and you asked me Mr PEARCE: On the subject of the lift, I shall whether or not I wanted it. It is up to you to do tell members a story. When I liberated that lift I what you want to do. Ifr you put up one file, you was told by officers of the Education Department should understand you will be opening Pandora's that, for security reasons, it could not be opened box. tsa) 1926 1826[ASSEMBLY]

Mr PEARCE: I shall table the files I want to Mr MacKinnon: He was seen to be a very good table. public servant who could be trusted to be impar- Mr Clarko: You see, that is the point: but we tial. would be asking you about other files. Mr Tonkin: Rubbish. The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! The member Mr PEARCE: I wonder about that. When one for Karrinyup knows when I am in the Chair considers the performance of the man and the by- interjections are reasonably satisfactory, but they elections in this State held last year caused by are not satisfactory if they exceed the amount of incompetence, particularly the incompetence of time taken by the person on his feet. the Electoral Office, one wonders about how great Mr PEARCE: The fact of the matter is, if the public servants these people were. That is one of Opposition wants to Follow the path it has set itself the things the Public Service Board looked t under its current leader of throwing mud at every- closely when it recommended the appointment of body in the hope that it can build- Dr Rumicy: that is to say, there had been a lot of Mr Tonkin: And their wives.* difficulty with the Electoral Office in the past. Mr PEARCE: And their children. If the Oppo- Mr MacKinnon: Which by-election? sition hopes to- Mr PEARCE: Mundaring. Several members interjected. Mr Tonkin: Even your candidate said it was the Mr MacKinnon: Don't you remember when fault or the Electoral Office. your Premier crucified a Public Service officer Mr Clarko: In England, the Minister would re- and he lost his job? sign. Mr PEARCE: The Opposition is making a Mr PEARCE: In this case the people threw him grave mistake in the way in which it is approach- out, because the Minister responsible for the prob- ing this matter. There is no chance for it in this lems in the Mundaring by-election was a Minister line of attack. Clearly the Government intends to in the previous Government, and the pcople did a follow the course it has followed all along with very thorough job on him, regard to Public Service appointments: that is, Mr Tonkin: The first thing Mr Coates said to that the best person should gel the job, whether he me was what dreadful Ministers Hassell and Pike comes froni inside or outside the service. had been. Mr Clarko: As long ats he belongs to the ALP! Mr Clarko: And you say you don't smear Mr PEARCE: We have followed a process of people. advertising significant Public Service posi tions Mr PEARCE: The fact is that the Government both inside and ouside the Public Service. believes it has done the right thing in confirming Mr MacKinnon: Did you advertise Tony the nomination made by the Public Service Board Lloyd's position? to have Dr Rumley as the Chief Electoral Officer. Mr PEARCE: It is part of our approach in The Government is of the view that it would be Government to seek the best people for Public improper for it to have appointed any other per- Service jobs. We have used the open advertise- son. ment system widely. That is not something new to Mr Rushton: You aire responsible for his ap- this Government, because the previous Govern- pointmfent. ment Followed the process of looking for outside Mr PEARCE: Does the member for Dale dis- appointments by advertising widely. pute that Dr Rumley was the person nominated by When we were in Opposition, we did not take the Public Service Board'? the line of slinging mud at every outside appoint- Mr Rushton: I am suggesting there has been ment to the Public Service made by the previous influence in his getting that position. Government. We did not criticise the appointment of Les MeCarrey from the university, of Noel Mr PEARCE: Can the member indicate the Semnmens. or of Doug Coates, who came from the basis on which he makes that judgment when the Health Department. advice from the Public Service Board carries the words enshrined in the amendment: nanmely 'in Mr Tonkin: And who had no experience of elec- an individ- toral matters. the board's view"-not just the view of ual member of the board, but in the collective view Mr MacKinnon: He was seen to be totally im- of the board-'there is no doubt that Dr Runtley partial. is the preferred applicant"? In those circum- Mr PEARCE: We knew that Mr Coates had stances the Government felt it had little option but been recommended by the Public Service Board. to appoint the person recommended by the impar- [Wednesday, 26 Septemb5cr 1984]182 1827 tial Public Service Board, at board comprising that Dr Ramley's appointment is politically people appointed by the previous Government. the motivated, and deliberately so. prcscnt Opposition. It is important to understand that the position The letter was signcd by the Chairman of the Dr Rumley will be occupying as the State's Chief Public Service Board, remembering that he is a Electoral Officer is probably above all other person who wats appointed to that position by the positions in the Public Service. It is a position that previous Govcrnment, the present Opposition; so not only must be free from political bias, but also there is no suggestion there that we have a person must be seen to be so by the public. If the public who is tainted by having been appointed by the are to have confidence in an electoral system, they current Government. Officers appointed by the must have confidence in the people who are to previous Government recommended Dr Rumley, administer that system; they must believe that the and this Government felt obliged to accept the people involved are free from political bias. recommendation. The Leader of the Opposition has adequately Mr Maclinnon: Dr Wood. explained how Dr Dennis Rumley can scarcely be Mr PEARCE: 1 amr talking about Mr seen to be someone who is free of political bias. MeKenna. The same applies to Tony Lloyd, who now Mr MacKinnon: Who said Dr Romley was occupies a senior position in State Treasury. It appointed by the Public Service Board'? further applies to Dr Michael Wood, who is the Mr Tonkin: We are not talking about the panel. Secretary of the Department of Local Govern- ment. Let me touch briefly on Dr Michael Wood's Mr PEARCE: These recommendations are appointment. It is a very strange argument that made by the Public Service Board, and the board says we can have a selection committee-and let collectively meets and makes recommendations us assume it was appointed totally independently and sends them to the Government. The of any Government interference-that has as a recommendation for Dr Rumley's appointment member a person who is, in Dr Michael Wood's was part of an impartial process, and the Govern- case, clearly a political appointment. Were this ment felt that it had no option but to accept the process to continue, we would have the absurd board's recommendation. In showing this level of situation that the selection committee could com- propriety, this Government stands head and prise Tony Lloyd, Dr Michael Wood and Dr shoulders above its predecessor in the area of pol- Dennis Rumley. They would be choosing people to itical appointments. fill senior Public Service positions. and among the MR MaclU NNON (M urdoch-Deputy Leader applicants might well be another person closely of the Opposition) [9.55 p~m.]: I oppose the associated with the Australian Labor Party. amendment to remove all the words after the word So I reject the notion that in this instance "be". I will comnment first on the remarks made by Michael Wood had any qualifications allowing the Minister for Education about what the Public Service should be and particularly about the per- him to be one of those persons who should have son who will now occupy the position of Chief been on that initial selection committee. He should have been deliberately excluded if the Electoral Officer: namnely, Dr Dennis Rumlecy. Firstly, as at public servant, he should be totally Government wanted to be seen 10 be acting impar- impartial. Secondly. his duty will be to provide tially. advice to the Government of the day and to ensure It is also very difficult to see how the Govern- the effective implementation of the Government's ment could mount an argument, as the Minister policy-not to create that policy, but to implement for Education tried to do, which attempted to im- it. The Public Service, and that position particu- plicate us for the actions we took when in Govern- larly, should be free of political appointments and menit. there should be no party political advisers He was trying to say, "ook, you have been involved. involved in these sorts of political appointments The appointment of Dr Runiley causes the Op- before. You are deliberately trying to smear an position grave concern. If' we were to consider his individual" which is not the case-and we of appointment in isolation, as the Government is course do not participate in anything like that", now doing. at seemingly good argument can be Dr Dennis Rumley, looked at in isolation, could made in support of the appointment. But when we well be a good candidate for appointment to that add up all the other political appointments and position, but looked at in the sum total of the the other activities of this Government. together activities of this Government, his would be a par- with the motion passed at the recent ALP State ticularly bad appointment. The Minister for Edu- Con ferenice, it ca n be seen why we on this side feel cation talks about smears, so let me point out to 1828 1828[ASSEM BLYJ him the smecar perpetrated by his own leader in Mr Tonkin: I am not saying he is now, but he last week's The Sunday Tinics under the headline, was once a Liberal candidate. "Burke says, Libs kept it in the party". The article Mr MacKINNON: Let us go back; if he was a reads as fol lows- Liberal candidate, let us pursue that point. The Premier, Mr Burke has provided a list Mr Tonkin: Dr Rumley was a Labor candidate of 35 people he claims rail into that category. and look at what you have done to him tonight. The previous sentence in that article indicates the Mr MacKINNON: The Premier stated that we following- were stacking these committees with people who The WA Government claims the Liberal were Liberal sympathisers. When was Dr Rumley Party stacked committees and boards with a Liberal candidate? party sympathisers in the years before it lost Mr Cordon.' Hill: Have you changed your ap- office. proach or attack on this matter? That is a deliberate attempt to smear and intimi- Mr Tonkin: Dr Rumley was never a Liberal date those 35 people and to indicate publicly that candidate. those people are associated in some way with the Mr MacKINNON: Let us go back to that Liberal Party or with the Opposition parties. Let smear campaign. The Minister for Education was me point out to the House how they perpetrated a trying to indicate to us that his side of t he House smear in the first place. Most members of this did not participate in those sorts of things. House would know Mayor Ray Finlayson of Kalgoorlie and members would be very hard- Mr Tonkin: Dr Rurnicy was never a Liberal pressed-and the member for Kalgoorlie would, I candidate. am sure, agree-to say that Mayor Ray Finlayson The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! is a sympathiser of the Liberal Party. Mr MacKINNON: The First person on the list Yet in this list, supplied- is Mr J. F. Craig, Chairman of the Egg Marketing Mr 1. F. Taylor: He is quite unbiased. Board. He is an es-Assistant Director of the De- partment of Agriculture. Can any member of this Mr MacK INNON: I am pleased that the mem- House tell me what is his association with the ber for Kalgoorlie said that, because his Premier Liberal Party? has indicated that Mayor Ray Finlayson is a party sympathiser and he was used by us to stack com- Mr Tonkin: You ask the Premier. He had the mittees. list. Mr 1. F. Taylor: At one stage he was a Liberal Mr MacKINNON: The Minister for candidate for Kalgoorlie. Agriculture cannot- Mr Clarko: But he is a pretty independent kind Mr Tonkin: He is not here. What do you mean of character. he cannot'? M r I.- F. Taylor: Very much so. Mr MacKINNON: The Premier says publicly that this man is closely associated with the Liberal Mr MacKiNNON, The member for Kalgoorlie Party. has also indicated he was a very independent Agriculture is not gentleman. Mr Tonkin: The Minister for even here. There is an empty seat. Mr Tonkin: Come on. He was a Liberal candi- Mr Mensaros: A man used to distribute Com- date and Dr Rumleiy was not. munist literature in the community and on that Mr MacKINNON: Mayor Ray Finlayson, in list he is described as a Liberal. all my timne spent dealing with him, certainly to Mr MacKINNON: That is very strange. We my knowledge, is now in no way associated with then have the Premier saying that Mr R. C. the Liberal Party in Kalgoorlie, yet the Premier Russell, who was a member of the Agriculture claims that we have used Mayor Ray Finlayson to Protection Board- stack committees. He is one of the people who supports our vtews. Mr Tonkin: Who is Mr R. C. Russell?! Mr Tonkin: He was a Liberal candidate. How Mr MacKINNON: I am not sure. can you compare him to Dr Rumley? Mr 1. F. Taylor: He was the National Party M r MacK IN NON: How absurd, but even if the candidate against Julian Grill in the last election. statement by the Leader of the House is correct, Mr MacKINNON: He was the National Party and even if Ray Finlayson secretly is a closet Lib- candidate against Julian Grill. Let me draw the eral-and I doubt that he is- attention of the member for Kalgoorlie to the [ Wednesday, 26 September 19841 121829

Agriculture Protection Board Act, in particular. Mr MacKINNON: This man has been section 5(4) which states- contacted to confirm this Situation. Mr Seolaro Members of the Agriculture Protection was appointed to that committee on 22 September Board arc determined by an Act of Parlia- 1969 and the Premier is trying to tell us that we ment. All of its members are nominated by stacked committees and boards in the years before orga nisa lions. we lost office. The member for Scarborough seemed to know- So much for the Premier's claim that the Liberal Party slacked committees and boards. Mr 1. F. Taylor: Was he at any time under your Government reappointed to that committee'? M r Ton kin: 0f cou rse you did. M rTonkin: You lost office in 197 1. Mr MacKINNON: I could go on- Mr MacKINNON: That member received a M rTonk in: Of cou rse you did. payment of $12 a year for turning up at that very Mr MacKINNON: I am quoting only the first powerful, very political committee. When he was paragraph of this list. We then have David Milne, appointed in 1969 he was not even a member of I know that man. He is Managing Director of the Liberal Party. Milne Feeds Pty. Ltd. Mr Burkett: Not even a sympaihiser? MrTonkin: That proves it, if you know him. Mr MacKINNON: Even if he were a sympath- Mr MacKIN NON: He is listed as a member of iser, how absurd is it for the Premier to be listing the Animial Feeding Stuffs Advisory Committee. 35 people and to publicly smear them? He seems to be a man well qualified for that Mr Gordon Hill: That is what you arc doing. position. I do not know Mr David Milne's political affiliations. Mr MacKINNON: He is associating many of them with the Liberal Party when they have no M r 1. F. Taylor: I know of him, too. association whatsoever with it. Mr MacKINNON: He is a nice fellow. He has Mr Gordon Hill: Neither is there any social been accused of being one of the people used by us consideration. to stack committees. Many other people are listed here. Mr MacKiNNON: most of those people were appointed to those committees because they were Mr Rushton: A camiouflage by the Premier. the right persons for the job. The member for M r Tonki n: M r O'M cara. Kalgoorlie would be interested to know that the Mr MacKINNON: Would members believe appointment of Ian Moffatt who was a member of that Mr O'Meara is not even on that list'! We the Tourism Advisory Council-there is no such have the memrber for Scarborough jumping up and council now-couLd be regarded as a political one down and his own Premier does not even agree because he was a candidate in Kalgoorlie standing with him. against the current member. However, the mem- ber for Kalgoorlie also could not deny that the Mr Burkett: Because the member for Karrirtyup same man is well qualified to be a member of any said that if you become the Government they will tourist advisory council in this State; in fact, he all get skittled. and I said we would put up with the Tourism Com- that political appointment. He did not tell me he could well be a member of wou ld crea te the job for hi m, three days a week for mission in this State because he is so well quali- fied. $28 000 a year. .Mr Burkctt: So are Tony Lloyd and Michael Mr MacKINNON: The Premier is trying to Wood, make political mileage and yet does not include him on the list. The member for Scarborough is Mr Tonkin: Arc you trying to say Dr Rumley is way off-track. not well qualified for the job?! Mr Burkett: He was talking about Murray Mr MacKIN NON: No, that is not what we are 0'M eara. saying. M r MacK I NNON:- Lei me show members how Mr Tonkin: He is probably the best qualified abysmal the argument of the Premier was. Mr person in this State for the job. Seola ro- Mr MacKINNON: What we are saying, and Mr Burkett: Mr Scolaro ran against Herbie what was said by the Leader Of the Opposition- Grahani for the ,Liberal Party and was non-politi- The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! The Deputy cal. Meet the member for Murdloeh-Mr Incred- Leader of the Opposition will resume his seat. ible. That's incredible! It has become increasingly obvious to me that The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! members are intent on deliberately ignoring me 1830 1830ASS EM BLY when I call for order. I do not intend to shout Public Service is politicised-and. third, any form every time I call for order. When i do call of advisory body to the Governmrent will have to "Order" 1expect somec recognition. I ask members be vetted first by the ALP and its policy com- of the Government particularly to respect the mittee. Chair. otherwise I will have to do something that It is clear that the intention behind the appoint- will make both the members of the Government ment of Dr Rumley is to politicise the one office in and myself very sorry. this State which should be above politics, and M r M acK I NNON: I oppose t he deletion of t he above all other departments. words after the word "be" because that would be I oppose the amendment moved by the Premier. removing the xhole point of the motion, and our and a division taken with the concern, ats expressed. that this appointment is Amendment pot part of at politically motivated campaign. In the following result-- words of the motion it "represents an appalling Ayes 23 political interference with the independence and Mr Baternan M r Jarn ieon Mlrs Beggs~ Mr Mclver integrity of the Public Service and the electoral Mr Bridge M r Parker system of the State'. Mr Bryce Mr Pearce Mrs Buchanan M4r D. L..Smit h We are concerned because of the previous pol- Mr Brian Burke Mr P.J.. Smith itical appointments that have been made to the M'r Terry Burke M r 1. F.Taylor Public Service, as we have outlined with the ap- Mr Burkett M r Tonkin pointment of Tony, Lloyd and Michael Wood. We Mr Carr Mrs Watkins Mr Davies Mr Wilson are concerned about the manner in which political Mrs IHenrderson M r Gordon I I ill advisers are being placed between departments Mr Ilodge (Teller) and the Ministers so that public servants are now Noes t5 messenger boys and girls for the Ministers and M r C~a rko Mr Mensaros% their advisers. Equally. we arc concerned that this Mr Court M r Old appears to be an ongoing trend. Mr Coyne Mr Rusion Mr Ilassel M r Trei howa n When we look at the motion or paper agreed to Mr Peter Jones *MrTubby at the Conference of the Australian Labor Party Mr tLaurance ,Mr Watl under the heading "The Role of State Executive M'r MiacKinnon .Mr Willianms Mr Mc'Ncc (Teller) Policy ComirIices" we note this statement- Piirs Consultations should, for example, occur A)yes N oe on the principles behind relevant parliamen- Mr Berirani M r TlhoinpNon tary bills, on programmetis for the implemten- Mr GArill M r Blaikie tation of policies and appointments to statu- Mr Evans M1r Crane Mr Toni Jones Mr Bradshaw tory and other bodies. Mr Troy Mr Cra) den The Opposition is concerned about political up- Mr Read M r Spriggs poiniments to the Public Service Board. We have Amecndment thus passed. advisers, and now we will have other appointments MR BRIAN BURKE (Balga -Premier) [10.18 by the Governmnrt. through the ALP policy com- P.M.]: I move- mitmnent. I ask the Leader of the House: Did he refer this appointment to that body? That the following be substituted for the words deleted Mr Tonkin: Put it on notice. I can give you an answer. "'No". congratulated on the appointment of Dr Dennis Rumley as Chief Electoral Mr MacKINNON: The answer is "No'. 11 Officer of the State. Further the House seems strange the Leader of the House ignores his notes that the appointment of Dr Own Party. Rumlecy was recommended by the Public Mr Tonkin: A mian of great independence. Service Board which in its advice to the Mr MaeCKINNON: Therefore, in future, we Government stated that: "in the Board's will have political interference with appointments view there is no doubt that Dr Runiley is to all of these independent bodies. It is elear there the preferred applicant". is to be,' no such independence. First, the Public MR HASSELL (Cottlesloc -Leader of the Op- Service %%ill be politicised in the form we have position) [10.19 p.m.]: The Government, which indicated: second, we will have advisers who will has the majority can pass any amendment it likes, conic between the Ministers and their departmen- as this Government will tonight. It can defeat any tal heads who will not be necessary once the motion it likes, as this Government will do tonight [Wednesday, 26 September 1984] 131831 with the censure motion. However, the Govern- has made an appointment which is so serious in its nient really does make a total farce of government implications and so wrong that the Opposition has when it. seeks, to turn a motion of censure about an seen fit to move a censure. issue as important and as serious as this, into Instead of replying with the one legitimate words of congratulation to the Premier and the answer to say two things-the qualifications of the Government for a decision which has caused such man appointed and a special reason for making an difficulties and problems. outside appointment-the Government has chosen If the Premier wanted to turn the motion instead simply to turn the words around and pat around instead of simply defeating the censure, itself on the back. I am staggered that the Premier and included in his amendment the information did not spend one moment of his time tonight in that the appointment was recommended by the seeking to justify the appointment of Dr Runiley Public Service Board and that it was made on the on the basis of qualifications. basis of qualifications-which I notice is not in- Mr Bryce: You have disgraced yoursclf tonight cluded in the amenidmeint-it would bear some on this issue. nieasure of credibility. This motion bears no tittle M r H ASS EL L: I n fact, he did a grave disserv- of credibility because the Government cannot fool ice to Dr Rumley by failing even to put forward anyone by trying to congratulate itself on an ap- the material that was presumnably available on thc pointicent which has proven to be so singularly files as to his qualifications. unpopular on this side of the House, Whether or not members opposite agree with our point of The more particular failure of the Premier in view, that in itself- dealing with this censure motion was that he gave no reason at all for the appointment being made Mr Tonkin: You would not agree with anything. over the head of an equally favoured senior public Mr HASSELL: That is nonsense. servant, other than to say it happened to have been recommended by the Public Service Board. Mr Tonkin: Come on! You arc the greatest whinger I have ever known. Mr Pearce: That is the truth of the matter. Mr HASSELL: This is where the Government's Mr HASSELL: In fact, he has left the matter position is so lacking in understanding and so very much as we said it wais; that is, the Govern- foolish. ment set out to make an outside appointment for a very deliberate reason. The Government set out Mr Bryce: You arc not like the great statesmen once again to turn its back on the Public Service of who led your once great party-men like Sir this State which it does not trust and cannot abide. David Brand and Sir Charles Court. Mr Clarko: And the Public Service does not Mr HASSELL: How the Deputy Premier loves trust the Government. to drag up namecs from the past now tha t they do not represent any threat to his political situation! Mr HASSELL: The reality is the Public Ser- vice in this State is now in a position where it has Mr Bryce: They never did, anyway. to make a declaration of loyalty to the Labor Mr Clarko: They kept you over here for a long Government as the qualification for being ac- timne cepted. Mr Bryce: They taught me a few good lessons: I Mr Pearce: That is rubbish. amn proud to have served the apprenticeship. Mr HASSELL: Those who are not for the The I)EPUTY SPEAKER: Order! I am not Government in a political sense are taken as being sure whether ihose interjections will be attributed against the Government. The qualities of the Pub- to the Deputy Premier or the Minister for the lic Service established through centuries of devel- Environment. If they are to be attributed to the opment of that system-qualities of impartiality Deputy Premier, I hope in future they will come and dedication in the implementation of Govern- from his seat. ment policy and neutrality in dealings with the public-have been cast out by this Government. Mr HASSELL: The amendment does not bear any semblance of reasonableness. It is a stupid Mr Bryce: This has been one of your poorer amendment and a totally political one which de- performances, Bill. pends on simply using the Government's numbers Mr HASSELL: That is the basis of this to achieve a result. This Premier and Government Government's performance in making this ap- which have presented themselves so often since pointment. It has a fundamental distrust and dis- their election as reasonable and prepared to con- like of the Public Service and it is determined to sider issues, have shown tonight just how un- change it by bringing abotut radical changes reasonable and foolish they are. The Government through the system of appointments it has 1832 1832(ASSEMBLY] adopted. No explanation has been given by the The fact is that this appointment has been made Premier or the Minister atsto what startling new and I think the Premier has some concern about progress Western Australian Government the fact that he. his Government, and his Minister administration will make because this gentleman are being exposd inthis case for their fiddling of has been brought in ahead of an equally highly the whole system. We have suspected that that has Favoured scnior member of th~e Public Service. The been the case all along. It has now been evidenced Government has essentially failed to answer the on a number of occasions through legislation put ease made against it-the substantive arguments forward by the Minister. that were put against the appointment of Dr Dennis Rumley. By failing to do so it has given I oppose the amendment. more substance and' credence to the points we Amendment put arnd a division taken with the made in the course of the debate. The Premier's following result- answer was weak and shallow, and it represented an admission by him that he has his own doubts Ayes 23 about this appointment. M r Batemna n M r .amieson Mris Beggs Mr Mclver M r Bryce: Do you remember some of the scu rri- Mr Bridge Mr Parker lous things you used to say about your depart- Mr Bryce Mr Pearce men tsO Mrs Buchanan Mr D. L. Smith Mr Brian Burke Mr P. J. Smnith Mr HASSELL: The Opposition has accepted Mr Terry Burke M r 1. F, Tayl or Mr Burkett M r Tonkin the fact that the Government has made a number Mr Carr Mrs Watkins of appointments without making any public com- Mr Davies Mr Wilson ment about them in the interests of letting those Mrs Henderson Mr Gordon Hill people do the jobs they have been appointed to do. Mr Hodge Let us name sonic of them. No comment was made on the appointment of Bill McKenzie, or on Noes I5 the appointment of the head of the Lotteries Corn- Mr Clarko Mensaros Mr Court Mr Old r6ssion, or on the appointment of the head of the Mr Coyne Mr Rushton (Tellvrj Greyhound Rakcing Control Board and a number Mr Hassell Mr Trethowan of others. But when it comes to this depart- Mr Peter Jones Mr Tubby met-this central department in the Government Mr Laurance Mr Watt Mr MacKinnon Mr Willian,, administration- Mr MeNe M r Bryce: One you have rigged for years. Mr HASSELL-one that goes to the heart of Pa irs A yes N oes requirements for administration of the highest Mr Bertramn M r Thompson level of impartiality and integrity, we cannot allow Mr Grill Mr Blziikie the Government to sit back and permit this ap- Mr Evans M r Cra ne pointment to go unchallenged and unnoticed. The Mr Peter Jones M r B radshaw a very Mr Troy Mr Grayden Premier's defence was not a defence-, it was Mr Read M r Spriggs poor apology for what hats been done. The Premier's amendment to the motion lacks Amendment thus passed. any semblance of credibility because a Govern- ment which seeks to congratulate itself about something which has brought criticism on its head Motion. as Amended cannot be serious in debating the issues. Question (motion, as amended) put and a div- Mr Bryce: Not criticism, just vindictive bile. ision taken with the following result- Mr HASSELL: I says a lot for the validity of Ayes 23 the censure motion moved against the Govern- M r Hoatema n Mr Janmieson ment. It will be defeated of course: it was always Mrs Beggs Mr Mclver going to be defeated on the numbers. That is the Mr Bridge Mr Parker Mr Bryce Mr Pearce system that operates and I am not complaining Mrs Buchanan Mr D. L. Snith about it. But one would have thought the Premier Mr Brian Burke Mr P. J. Smnith could have done better than he did if he had an M r Terry Burke Mr 1. F. Taylor answer. It is clear he had no answer. and one Mr Burkett Mr Tonkin Mr Carr Mrs Watkins would have thought he could produce an amend- Mr Davies Mr Wilson ment with some credibility if he were dinkumt Mrs Henderson Mr Cordon Hill about the things he was saying. Mr Hodge (Ti'llr) [Wednesday, 26 September 1984] 183383

Nlsoes 15 Each bus contractor is responsible for the pur- NI Clarko Mkr MenisaroN chase, maintenance, cleaning, and disposal of his M1r Court N-MrOld NIt Covic Mr Rusion bus in the same way as any person in private Nitr I Lt,.ellI Mr Trtethoivun enterprise. He has to decide whether hc will em- Mr Paecr hines Mr Tubby ploy a driver or whether he will drive the bus M1,rtLaurance M r Wmt himself. Nit MacVKisinon Mr Williamns NItrMNcNe e (Tller) A bus contractor does not have access to a Pairsl Government superannuation scheme as does a civil Ases Noes servant. He does not receive five weeks' annual MIr Berira in Mr Thiompson leave with a 17 per cent loading and he does not Nit Grill Mr Blaikie Mlr lvins Mr Cranec have any form of long service leave. In addition, Nit Peter .Ione Mr Bradshaw he is not covered by workers' compensation. How- Nit Trov Mr Grayderi ever, he accepts those things because he goes into M r Rea~d Mr Spriggs a business for himself. He believes that in the long Question thus passed. term he will be able to make a profit becaue that is BILLS (2): RECEIPT AND FIRST READING. the precise reason any person enters into that type of business or any other private enterprise busi- 1. Acts Amendment (Court Fees) Bill. ness. Yet, this Government seems to believe that 2. Adoption of Children Amendment Bill, profits are unnecessary. Bills received from the Council; and, on In fact, the now Prime Minister of Australia has motions by Mr Tonkin (Leader of the probably spent the lass 10 years turning the word House), read a first time. "1profit" into a dirty word. While trying to do that he exported a lot of jobs with it and now he rushes WHIEAT MARKETING AMENDMENT BILL from coast to coast saying. 'Let us pull the Returned country together-, after spending a long time dis- Bill returned from the Council without amend- mantling it. ment. The Government has indicated its inability to grapple with these questions. On 28 August the TRANSPORT: SCHOOL BUSES Minister said that it transpired, during nego- Contracts: Motion tiations, that some contract holders were selling Debate resumed from 22 August. their contracts. MR McNFE (Mt. Marshall) 110.41 p.mn.]: I What an amazing discovery! I would have support the motion. thought that there was not a great deal wrong with It appears that we have reached a situation that. I would have thought also that after people where this matter has now become a question of had spent. perhaps 20 or 30 years operating a profit and, in fact, where the Government recog- school bus service, they would be entitled to pre- nises that people are making a profit. It seems that pare for their retirement. there will be a mandatory cut of five per cent. I Of course, the Prime Minister has said that we would like the first trade unionist to accept a five should look at this matter and decide whether we per cent cut to stand up and be counted and I need to go further. would like the person who would argue that trade unionists should take a five percvent cut to witness Mr Pearce: The Prime Minister has not been it. I do not believe they would do it, but that is involved in negotiations in regard to school bus what we are asking bus contractors to do. Contractors. Several members interjected. Mr McNEE: I want the Minister to understand Mr Pearce: They do not have to take the Five how difficult it is for private enterprise to make per cent cut: they can go to open tender. money. He has probably always been on a salary and been covered by union agreements which a lot Mr MeNEE: As I understand it, that is the of people into whom he is putting the fear of God, proposition have never had. Of course, this Government does not understand what business and profit is about. That has been The Minister said that the fact that people could buy contracts and still make money made abundantly clear by the Government in this indicated that bus services were House on more than one occasion, I do not know operated at a con- how any industry is supposed to act, or to achieve. siderable profit. unless it is in the Position of making a profit. Several members interjected- 1834 834[ASSEMBLY]

Mr MeNEF: However, no businessman is keen The Government decided that wats all too hard; to buy one of the units. but of course, we make this arbitrary cut of five Mr Pearce: Rubbish! per cent and say. "Go away and sort it out". Mr McNEE: They do not want to buy one of I cannot imagine how many advisers it has. those units. This brings mle to another point. Mr Pearce: Have you lost count? Several members. interjected. Mr MeNEE: Those advisers enjoy all the ben- Mr MeN EE: The other day the Minister, with eFits of the fruits, of Government. Do they have a great gusto, was asked a dorothy dix question in few cars thrown in as well?! I suppose they do not this House by the member for Gosntells regarding even polish them; that would be another benefit of a school bus contract sale in the Midland area. In being a friend of someone in Government. What pa rt t he M in istermsid the fol lowi ng- about the poor fellow in the country carving out his own living. who is then subject to the total I ami advised that the nmaximunm Value of thrust of the Government? That is the point I the Bedford bus would be between 330000 make; It is very good to be strong and sound and and 340 000. which indicates aI profitability have a great responsibility to the taxpayers' Funds. which seems to mec to be almost the yearly I remind the Minister of that because I rather like salary of atmember of Parliament. The oper- that phrase. ator is seeking between $40 000 and $50 000 for the Governmntn contract. M r Pea rce: Iti is a good ph rase. I do not know how the Minister arrived at these Mr MeNEE: The Minister says that the figures. but what I do know is that the Minister Governinent's first obligation in negotiation is to makes assumiptions that are not entire!y correct. the taxpayers. I wonder whether the Government thought about that when it reopened the Perth to I remind the Minister that in relation to the sale Fremantle railway line*? I suppose it did. It is of a unit there is an asking price and a selling certainly not thinking about those poor fellows out price. 1 do not know wvhether the advertisement there who have spent at long time consolidating wats realistic, but that is something the industry these businesses. I suppose "business" is a dirty should determine. word to this Government. Now that they arc in a I thought that perhaps I should ask the Minister situation where they are very successful and their a question about this matter because I found it businesses are appreciating in value, this Govern- rather interesting. Subsequently I asked him ment shows its incompefitence and lack of under- whether hie had access to the profit and loss standing and starts to fiddle. That is the net result statement and if hie would inform the House of the of what is happening out there now. The Govern- total deductions, arriving at the net result. He said ment says the new system will save taxpayers $1.5 that he had quoted the figures from an advertise- million a year. ment in The Sundvv Times "Readers Mart" and Mr Pearce: No. $I million. We would be pre- that if I thought, for sonic strange reason, that the advertisement did not correctly state the profit pared to negotiate on the other $500 000. involved in the contract I should go to the Depart- Mr MeNEE: I will accept the figure of $I ment of Consumer Affairs. He said that he would million, and ensure a reasonable return on invest- be happy to make avaIilaLble to the Department of ment for contractors. But the point the Minister Consumer Affairs the financial statements of the has not explained clearly to ine is what he really operator concerned. meant last week. Certainly his answer to the ques- tion was far from satisfactory. I was not asking I did not ask that question. I asked him whether him about consumer affatirs, I was asking hint how he had'studied the situation. I doubt whether he much he knew. If the Minister chooses to answer had because I do not know how a $41 000 gross in that way, that is his affair. It is not my job to contract could net $33 000. answer questions: it is my job to ask questions. H-I Mr Pearce: The operator was claiming that is not terribly good at answering then but profit. nonetheless, with a little tuition and encourage- Mr MeN Eli: I do not know the price of petrol in nient I am sure we will get himi doing a much Mt. H-elena but I know that in my electorate it is better job in that respect. He must consider the something In the order of S0c-S Ic a litre. That is livelihood of the people involved, and if he chooses regardless ofithe fact that some 12 months ago the not to he will face the peril of the electors next Government said that it would reduce the price of election titme. petrol. H-owever. it decided that it was too hard rhis is at most important matter. I hope thle and broke its promnis.q Government does not continue to try to run rough-

I Wednesday, 26 September 1984J183 1835 shod over people because whether the Government Certainly the question is being asked in this realises it or not, people are in a very fearful and industry that if the contractors do not concede and concerned state of mind. I am sure members op- do the things the Government wants, will the posite would ndt want to be regarded as a Govern- Government put in a fleet of Government buses nrt of intimidation, but that is the only con- and employ drivers'? The Government would then clusion one can draw, because that is the way the be liable to pay those drivers holiday pay, sick Government has painted the picture. It is not we leave, 17.5 per cent holiday loading, etc. in the Opposition who paint the picture. We can Mr Williams: That is the Government's inten- only make an observation as to what happens; the (ion- consequences arc the Government's problem. Mr Pearce: That is not our intention. We shall Mr Pearce: Arc you in favour of private put the system out to open tender. enterprise'? Mr MeNEE: Why not say so instead of imucking around'? I suppose it is the Government's Mr MeNEE: I would say that the Government abhorrence of private enterprise that stops it from has handled this situation in a very poor way. doing these things. Nonetheless it makes these I still want the Government to assure me , and I decisions and I do not. have not heard anyone say this, that it knows of I urge the Government to show some com- ainy trade unionist who would accept a five per passion for the people in this industry. The indus- cent pay cut. Of course, doctors can take a 15 per try has a record of safety that is unparalleled. I cent cut but they, too, unfortunately are in most remind members that if the Government endeav- eases self-employed: it seems that the attack is ours to cut the profitability of the industry that, in made on self-employed people. That is unfortu- fact, encourages operators to perhaps not be as nate because if the Government keeps screwing careful as they should. That is when we start head- them hard enough and often enough there will be ing down the track of ruin. no sielf-employed people left. We shall have a I support the motion. utopian situation where the Government controls Debate adjourned, on motion by M-r Tubby. all the issues and has everything its own way, House adjourned a: 10.57 p.mi. 1836 1836[ASSEMBLY]

QUESTIONS ON NOTICE (2) (a) As there is already a physiotherapy section at the Bentley Hospital complex, is it intended that such a facility will be provided 861 and 873. Postponed. there: (b) if so. when will such a facility be available to those requiring it'? FISHERIES: TUNA (3) Are there any other plans for such Inquiry: Submission centres in metropolitan hospital 874. Mr OLD. t6 the Minister for Fisheries and complexes? Wildlife: (4) Where is the nearest hydrotherapy (I) Did the State Government in its sub- centre to the Bentley Hospital'? mission to the Industries Assistance Mr HODGE replied: Commission inquiry into the southern bluefin tuna industry make any (1) Patients currently requiring hydro- recommendation for a compensation therapy in the Bentley area are treated component in any financial arrangement by Health Department physiotherapists for lishermen forced to leave the indus- using private facilities. A recent request try'? has been received from the Bentley Hos- pital that consideration be given to the (2) If "Yes", what was the basis of the provision of such facilities on that site. I recommendation? am unaware of any formal approach for Mr EVANS replied: such facilities in the other areas nominated. (I) Yes. (2) The Western Australian Government (2) (a) There are no current plans to pro- vide hydrotherapy facilities on the urged the commission to recommend in Bentley Hospital site. its Ainal reprt- (b) See (2)(a) above. (a) a cash grant scheme as a mechan- ism for structural adjustment assist- (3) The possibility of incorporating such fa- ance for the catching sector of the cilities in future assessment/restorative fishery as an additional incentive to units is being explored. remove tuna vessels from the li- (4) The private facility being used by censed Fishing fleet; the level of as- Bentley Hospital is some 10 kms distant. sistance required being dependent Another privately-owned and operated upon acceptance of a phased re- facility is available in South duction in the national quota and Perth-[O kmis distant. The nearest pub- marketed price for quota units!, lic hospital facility is at Royal Perth (b) a separate, smaller cash grant (Rehabilitation) Hospital in Shenton scheme to provide for the relocation Park-approximately 12 kims distant. and/or retraining of boat owners and their crews upon the retirement of at tuna vessel from the fishing in- 880 and 88 1. Postpioned. dustry. TAXES AND CHARGES 875 to 878. Pa'tponcd. Increases: Dollar Value 882. Mr HASSELL, to the Treasurer: H EA LTH What is the total amount of the increase, Hydrotherapy Pool expressed in dollars, of State Govern- ment charges for the year 1984-85? 879. Mr JAMIESON, to the Minister for Health: Mr BRIAN BURKE replied: (1) Is he aware ofthe early need for a hydro- This is a budgetary matter and relevant therapy pool to be established to provide information will be disclosed when the for those in need of such therapy in the 1984-85 Consolidated Revenue Fund Es- south-east, and eastern suburbs? timates are presented to Parliament. [Wednesday, 26 September 19841 183783

TAXES AND CHARGES: FID ing that period. The exact ratio of the Review: Report investment at any point in time will vary. The bank has completed projections 883. Mr HASSELL, to the Premier: which confirm that the commitment is (1)(a) Has the review of the financial insti- well within its resources, but for reasons tutions duty been completed: of commercial confidentiality would not (b) ifso, when was itcompleted; wish these projections lo be made public. (c) if not, when will it be completed'? (2) Has the Government received a report'? GOVERNMENT GUARANTEES (3) (a) Will he table the report: Grain Pool (b) if not, why not? 885. Mr HASSELL, to the Treasurer: Mr BRIAN BURKE replied: (1) (a) Is it fact that the State Government (I) (a) Yes: has given a guarantee of a $150 (b) the working party report was million loan raising by the Western finalised some time ago, but the Australian Grain Pool; Government has only recently (b) if not, what is the extent of the completed its del iberations. guarantee? (c) Not applicable. (2) What is the basis of this arrangement? (2) See (1)(b). (3) Why has it been made? (3) (a) No: (4) Is this the first occasion on which the (b) the report contains confidential de- State Government has been involved in a tails of submissions received as part transaction of this nature with the West- of the review, ern Australian Grain Pool'? (5) Is the Western Australian Grain Pool a Slate Government instrumentality? FINANCIAL INSTITUTION: R & I BANK (6) What consideration is being given by the Palace Tower: Agreement Western Australian Grain Pool for the 884. Mr HASSELL, to the Premier: guarantee? (1) What is the agreement between the Ru- Mr BRIAN BURKE replied: rat & Industries Bank and the Ausimark (1) to Group for the construction of the Palace (6) I refer the member to the Tower? statement made to the Legislative As- sembly by the Minister for Agriculture (2) Is the Rural and Industries Bank acting on Tuesday. 25 September 1984. as financier or equity participant? (3) Is the State Government directly involved in any way'? HEALTH: HOSPITAL (4) Was the transaction carried out at the V/unnerve: Bed Occupancy Rate request of the State Government? 886. Mr HASSELL, to the Minister for Health: (5) What is the ratio of the total financial (1) What is the bed occupancy capacity of commitment of the Rural and Industries the Wanneroo Hospital? Bank in this transaction to the pro- (2) What has been the average occupancy prietors' funds of the Rural and Indus- for the past three months? tries Bank? (3) What was the average occupancy for the Mr BRIAN BURKE replied: corresponding period last year? (1) A standard joint venture agreement. Mr HODGE replied: (2) The bank is acting as a joint venturer. (1) Bed occupancy capacity-84 beds. (3) No. (2) Month Daily (4) No. Bed (5) The outlay by the bank will be spread Averages over a period of three years and will be June 1984 31.1 offset by the sale of surplus properties as July 1984 38.3 well its the accumulation of profits dur- August 1984 45.2 1838 1838[ASSEMBLY]

Month Daily (4) Is it still proposed that any Government Bed equity participation would be held by the Averages Western Australian Development Cor- (3) June 1983 44.7 poration as indicated to the Confeder- July 1983 50.7 ation of Western Australian Industry in August 1983 49.5 1983? 887 and 888. Postponed. Mr PARKER replied: (I) to (4) It is not known to which -announcement" the member is refer- RESOURCES DEVELOPMENT ring. However a fundamental principle Energy: Cost of the initiatives in negotiations to estab- 889. Mr PETER JONES, to the Minister for lish an aluminium smelter in Western Minerals and Energy: Australia is that the development must (1) In promoting the establishment of new result in benefits for Western industrial development and mineral Australians. As the member for processing in Western Australia, is the Narrogin would have noted it is the Government proposing to supply energy Government's wish to see maximum for any new industry at a price that practicable Australian equity partici- would cover the cost of generation? pation in the project and this is accepted by the consortium members who are (2) What relative emphasis is given to inter- seeking additional Australian partici- national competitiveness in such indus- pation. tries as: The Government continues to assess (a) chlor-alkali (caustic soda): alternatives for ensuring maximum ben- (b) where ethane from the North-West efits for Western Australians from the Shelf gas stream would be compet- project's development and Western ing with similar energy sources for Australian equity participation may be the same industry in Canada, the one way to achieve this. Matters regard- Middle East etc'? ing possible participation continue to be Mr PARKER replied: under assessment and are confidential at this time. The Government intends to (I) Yes. provide such relevant information at the (2) (a),and (b) The Government recognises appropriate time in a responsible and that international competitiveness is a vi- commercially prudent way. tal factor in achieving the establishment of new export orientated processing proj- ects in Western Australia. LOCAL GOVERNMENT: HEALTH Analytical Conittee 890. Po.51poned. 892. Mr PETER JONES, to the Minister for Health: health ALUMINIUM SMELTER: EQUITY (1) With regard to the local authorities analytical committee, was the Western A ustralian Government: Invitation 50 per cent increase in the minimum 891. Mr PETER JONES, to the Minister for charge levied by the committee approved Minerals and Energy: by the State Government? (1) With regard to his announcement (2) Does the State Government approve of published on 16 August 1984, that the the committee employing appropriate Western Australian Government had staff and establishing its own health in- been invited to take an undisclosed spection service? equity in the proposed aluminium (3) For what reason has the committee now smelter, from whom was the invitation determined that it should become received!? involved in matters relative to herbicide, (2) Whatt percentage equity participation is weedicide and pesticide residues in pri- being considered? mary produce? (3) How' would any equity participation, if (4) Will he immediately seek to review the agreed by Government, be financed? role of the local health authorities ana- I Wednesday, 26 September 1984]183 1839

lytical committee with a view to avoiding required to meet the statutory require- dvplication and excessive charges for the ments of the committee. services it provides and which are not available from other sources? 894 and 895. Postponed. Mr HOI)GE replied: (I) No. Itdbes not require Government ap- proval. ENERGY; ELECTRICITY (2) The committee is empowered under the Power Station: South Frenmantle Health Act to make such decisions and does not require the approval of the 896. Mr PETER JONES, to the Minister for Government. No such proposals have, in Minerals and Energy: fact, been presented to me. (1) With regard to the reduction in generat- (3) I understand the committee discussed ing activity at the South Fremantle this matter with the Executive Director, power station, how many staff are cur- Public Health. The Health Department rently at South Fremantle power participates in the market/basket survey station? which studies the Australian diet gener- (2) How many will be relocated and to ally. but it was agreed more examination which location? of foods at a local level was required. (3) How many is it proposed to retain for (4) The committee has always worked in care and maintenance" purposes at close association wvith the department South Fremantle and for what period? aind there is no duplication. I do not be- (4) When is it expected that the relocation lieve the charges arc excessive. I am sure of staff will be completed? the member would agree there is a need for more extensive monitoring for con- Mr PARKER replied: lamnination in food rather than less and (1) 95 Persons. any move to increase surveillance should (2) (a) 21 persons will retire with the be encouraged. station: LOCAL GOVERNMENT: HEALTH (b) the remainder will be relocated to positions within the comission. AalItica I Committiee (3) Five persons for two years from 893. Mr PETER JONES, to the Minister for September 1985. Local Government: (4) December 1985. (1) Are local government authorities required to utilise and financially sup- port the local health authorities analyti- Cal comm ittee?! ENERGY: ELECTRICITY (2) For wvhat purpose is any such require- Power Station: Bunbury ment made of local government 897. Mr PETER JONES, to the Minister for authori tics? Minerals and Energy: (3) In view of the Government's requirement (1) With regard to the intention of the State to avoid duplication of services provided Energy Commission to reduce generat- and the requirement that local govern- ing activity at the Bunbury power inert authorities contain operating costs, station, when is it anticipated that re- is there concern at the 50 per cent in- duction in generating activity will take crease tn charges levied by this com- effect'? mnittee for the current financial year'? (2) How' many staff wvill be expected to re- Mr CARR replied: locate from Bunbury to other State En- (1) and (2) The member's question can be ergy Commission locations? answered by referring to part VIII[(A) of (3) What staff will be retained at Bunbary the Health Act, which identifies the for "care and rmaintenance" activities'? committee's function and powers. (4) Is it anticipated that staff from Bunbury (3) No. I do not believe there is any dupli- will be granted preferential employment cation and I am confident the increase is at the new M uja D power station? 1840 1840ASSEMBLY)

M r PA R KER repl ied: ENERGY: ELECTRICITY (1) I October 1984. Power Station: Collie 899. Mr PETER JONES, to the Minister for First reduction in operating manning in Minerals and Energy: October 1984. Second reduction in operating manning in September 1985. (1) With regard to the environmental review Further reduction as system demand and management programme being pre- permits. pared by the State Energy Commission on the availability and use for cooling (2) Four staff will relocate from Bunbury purposes of water in the Collie basin- power station to Muja power station in (a) has the environmental review and October 1984. Others will be relocated management programme yet been as generation and maintenance require- completed and submitted to the Eni- ments at Bunbury permit. vironmental Protection Authority; (3) Bunbury will remain operational with (b) if "No". when is it anticipated that reduced manning until a firm decision is the environmental review and man- taken to close it down. agement programme will be completed and forwarded to the En- (4) Persons being relocated from Bunbury vironmental Protection Authority? will have preference over employees recruited from outside the commission. (2) For what period will public submissions be open and invited for comment on the environmen -tal review and management HOUSING: RENTAL programme?! SEC and GEHA (3) (a) Is the environmental assessment of 898. Mr PETER JONES, to the Minister for the proposed pipeline from the Col- Minerals and Energy: lie basin to the ocean at Bunbury part of the environmental review What is the present percentage relation- and management programme cur- ship between rental levels applying to rently under consideration; State [nergy Commission housing and (b) if "No", when will this further en- those applying to tenants in Government vironmental assessment be Employees' Housing Authority dwell- completed and available for com- ings. ment? Mr PARKER replied: M r PAR K ER replied: (1) (a) and (b) There is no separate environ- Relationship between rental applied by mental review and management pro- GEHA and SEC gramme (ERMP) being prepared by the Major centrs- commission on the availability and use for cooling purposes of water in the Col- In major centres of population the com- lie basin. The -use of groundwater and mission adopts the rate of 75 per cent of minewater in the proposed south-west GEHA housing rentals as the basic power station will be addressed in the rental for commission-owned property. ERMP for this project. Under the cur- Major centres arc Cecraldton, Albany. rent programme, the ERMP will be sub- Bunbury, Kalgoorlie, and Collie. mitted to the Environmental Protection Authority in March 1985. Small towns- (2) The nominal period for public review of In areas not covered above, the basic the south-west power station ERMP is rental is 60 per cent of GEHA rentals. eight weeks, but this is subject to the discretion oF the Environmental Protec- North-wst- tion Authority. For locations above the 26th parallel, the (3) (a) and (b) Planning for the proposed basic rental is S14.20 compared with Muja to Bunbury saline water pipeline GEl-A rentals of between £37 and has been suspended pending a review by $47.50. the Public Works Department (PWD) of [ Wednesday, 26 September 19841 184184

management strategies to control the department is currently being quality of water supplied to great undertaken by working groups of officers southern towns. from the Public Service Board and the Environmental assessment of the saline component agencies. water pipeline will be recommenced only (2) (a) Yes; if the PWD review confirms the need for (b) Dr Syd Shea has been seconded such a pipeline. This assessment would from the Forests Department and be independent of the south-west power Mr David Hampton has been station ERMP. seconded from the Department of Premier and Cabinet. However, a DEPARTMENT OF CONSERVATION AND number of other personnel from the LAND MANAGEMENT component agencies have been working on the administrative ar- Adnhiinisqlrzliv'cA rrangemenls rangements and operating pro- 900. Mr PETER JONES. to the Premier: cedures of the proposed department (1) With regard to the proposed new on a part-time basis. Government department to combine the (3) No. A newsletter entitled Indat has been personnel and activities of the Forests circulated to members of the agencies Department. the National Parks Auth- involved in the amalgamation. Indat has ority. the wildlife section of the Depart- been produced to keep officers advised ment of Fisheries and Wildlife, the Her- on progress being made towards formu- barium. etc.. what progress has already lation of the department. been made in formulating administrative (4) No decision has been made as to what arrangements for the proposed depart- building will act as headquarters for the ment? proposed department. (2) (a) Have personnel been seconded for (5) Various options for accommodating the purpose of establishing adminis- the various sections of the proposed depart- trative arrangements, operating pro- ment are still being considered. cedures. and similar matters; (b) if ,Yes, who are the personnel involved and from which depart- 901 to 904. Posrponed. ments have they been seconded? (3) Is it fact that stationery and departmen- tal bulletins have been prepared? EM PLOYMENT AN DTRAIN ING: UNEMPLOYMENT (4) What office accommodation has been set aside for the new department as its head- Youth: Proposals quarters building? 905. Mr COURT, to the Premier: (5) What arrangements are proposed for the What are the Government's proposals to existing office accommodation currently solve youth unemployment in the 1984- occupied by those bodies and 85 financial year? instrumentalities which will be sub- Mr BRIAN BURKE replied: merged in the new department? Mr BRIAN BURKE replied: The Government will be announcing, in the forthcoming Budget, a range of (1) Formulation of administrative arrange- measures directed at young job seekers. nienits for the proposed Department of Conservation and Land Management have been confined to those necessary for HOUSING: CONSTRUCTION incorporation into the department of the Costs: 1983-84 Forests Department, the National Parks Authority, and the wildlife section of the 906. Mr MacKINNON, to the Minister for Department of Fisheries and Wildlife. Housing: The broad structure of the new depart- In the report to the Minister for Housing ment has been approved by the Public entitled "Housing Problems! Needs!", it Service Board and more detailed con- was indicated that building costs for the sideration of individual units of the new 1982-83 year rose by only 0.9 per cent. 1842 842[ASSEMBLY]

I ask- (b) yachting organisations-Bond Syndi- What has been the increase for the 1983- cate; 84 year?! (c) individual yachting participants- vari- Mr WILSON replied: ous members of the above organisations or of the various State authorities The building costs increase for 1983-84 associated with the America's Cup wvas 5.1 per cent. steering committee.

1l-IALTH: NURSING HOMES SPORT AND RECREATION: YACHTING Patients: Bed Subsidy America's Cup: Committee 907. Mr PETER JONES, to the Minister for I-Icalth. 909. Mr MacKINNON, to the Minister representing the Minister for Administrative (I ) (a) Under the subsidy and allowances Services: schemes available for private nurs- ing homes, does the Department of What members of the America's Cup Health continue to pay the bed sub- committee are experts in yachting or ex- sidy to private nursing homes when perienced yachtsmen'? the patient is temporarily Mr PEARCE replied: transferred to a hospital for required treat ment; The following committee members are (b) if 'N .for what reason is the pay- experienced yachtsmren- inent of this subsidy suspended'? Dr John Taplin. (2) (at) When payment is suspended, is it Mr Alan Keil. and normnal practice for the facility or the chairman. Mr N. Sernmens. institution concerned to seek to recover the bed subsidy directly from the patient: PORTS AND HARBOURS: MARINA (b) if so. is this practice covered by Fremantle: Danger Statute! 910. Mr MacKINNON. to the Minister (3) Has he received complaints relating to representing the Minister for Administrative make-up payments being directly Services: required from the patient who has been Is the Government aware that after temporarily absent undergoing required completion of the new marina in medical treat ment'? Fremantle, that on a prevailing south- Mr HODGE replied: west breeze it w'ill become difficult and (I ) to (3) As subsidy to nursing homes is a dangerous for- Commnonw~eaIt h matter, this question (at) yachts to leave the Fremnantle sail- should be referred to the Federal Minis- ing club: ter for Health. (b) yachts to enter the new marina; (c) yachts to leave the Fremantle fish- PORTS AND HARBOQURS: MARINA ing harbour? Frcinmtic: Yacht Clu:bs Mr PEARCE replied: 908. Mr MacKINNON. to the Minister for (a) to (c) Professional advice to the Govern- Works: nt is that no dangerous situation will What yacht clubs, yachting organis- exist as at result of construction of the ations. or individuals who participate in new marina Facility. yachting activities were contacted in the process of designing the new marina at The distance fromt the centre of the Freni ndtc'? planned entrance to the new marina to the centre of the existing fishing boat MIrMcI VER replied: harbour entrance, and the entrance to (at) Yacht Clubs-Royal Perth. Fremantle Fremantle Sailing Club will be. in each Sailing: case. 300 metires. [ Wednesday, 26 September 1984]184 1843

PORTS AND HARBOURS: MARINA PORTS AND H-ARBOURS: MARINA Fremantle: Congestion Fremantle: Consultants 913. Mr MacKINNON. to the Minister for 911. Mr MacKINNON, to the Minister Works: representing the Minister for Administrative Services: (1) Were international consultants used in the planning of the new Fremantle ma- Is the Government aware that the rina? combined entrance area to the (2) If "Yes"- Fremantle Sailing Club and the new Fremantle marina will be severely con- (a) who were those consultants; gested with power boats mixing with (b) for how long were their services yachts tacking in a restricted area? used: Mr PEARCE replied: (c) what experience did they have in marina designs? Professional advice to the Government is Mr McIVER replied: that there is no unmanageable conges- tion in the area referred to. Additional (I) No. navigational aids are to be installed in (2) (a) to (c) Not applicable. relation to the construction of the new marina and will provide adequate safe- guards. GOVERNMENT PUBLICATIONS: The distance from the centre of the "WA GOVERNMENT NOTES" Cost and Distribution planned entrance to the new marina to the centre of the existing fishing boat 914. Mr MacKINNON, to thePremier: harbour entrance, and the entrance to (1) What has been the total cost to 31 Fremiantle Sailing Club will be, in each August 1984, of publishing and case. 300 metres. distributing WA Government Notes? (2) Would he list for me the organisations to PORTS AND H-ARBOURS: MARINA which free copies of the publication will Fremntle: Environntnal Studies still be distributed as referred to by him in question 676 of 18 September? 912. Mr MacKINNON. to the Minister for the Environment: Mr BRIAN BURKE replied: (1) What environmental studies have been (1) The most recent accounts received-4 carried out to ensure that- July 1984-indicate costs of $6 975.50. Distribution costs are contained within (a) existing beaches will not be polluted normal departmental expenditure and and flooded: are not separated. (b) wave actions formed will not be (2) Local government organisations dangerous to small craft following Public libraries construction of the new Fremantle Tertiary institutions-libraries, public marina?! relations departments, and student (2) Have working models of the marina been guilds tested?! Service organisations-Lions, Apex. Ro- tary Mr DAVIES replied: All parliamentarians WA Federal parliamentarians (1) (a) Northern boat harbour will be built State Government departments and de- some distance offshore. The notice partmental libraries of intent for the project did not WA offices of Commonwealth depart- identify pollution or flooding of ments beaches as potential environmental Newvs and media outlets problems. State executives of political parties (b) and (2) These questions should be Trade unions referred to the Minister for Works. Industry organisations. 1844 1844[ASSEMBLY]

H EA LTH: A IR POL LUTION POLICE: FIREARMS Eastern Goldf'ids Review: Recommendations 915. Mr MacKINNON. to the Minister for 918. Mr MacKINNON, to the Minister for Health: Police and Emergency Services: (1) Referring to question 309 of 7 August. (1) Have the recommendations resulting concerning dir pollution in the eastern from the review of firearms legislation goldfields. has he yet received a response yet been presented to Cabinet? from the Minister for the Environment (2) (a) Has Cabinet approved of the following the reference or the report recommendations; mentioned to him on 8 May? (b) if so, when will the legislation (2) If not, when does he expect to receive a resulting from these response'? recommendations be introduced Mr HODGE replied: into the Parliament? (1) No. Mr CARR replied: (2) The member should refer this question to (1) No. the Minister for the Environment. (2) (a) and (b) Not applicable.

EDUCATION: FOUR-TERM SCHOOL YEAR WASTE DISPOSAL: LIQUID Length of Terms Canning Vale: Alternative Sites 916. Mr MacICINNON, to the Minister for Education: 919. Mr MacKINNON, to the Minister for HeaIt h: Referring to question 670 of 18 September 1984, when will the length of Referring to question 671 of I8 each proposed term be determined so September. what alternative sites to that those people making submissions to Canning Vale are under consideration by him can have some idea of the proposed the Public Health Department for the dates that at four-term school year will disposal of liquid wastes? encompass? Mr HODGE replied: Mr PEARCE replied: No specific sites are under consideration. When all submissions have been received and considered a decision will be made. Ample notice will be given of any change EDUCATION: PRIMARY SCHOOL in the dates of school terms. Burrendab: Adm~inistration Facilities 920. Mr MacKINNON. to the Minister for HOUSI NG: CONSTRUCTION Education: Commonweallh Assistance (1) (a) Referring to qucstion 2722 of 4 April 1984. concerning 917. Mr MacKINNON. to the Minister for administration facilities at Housing: Burrendah Primary School, has a Referring to question 788 of 19 tender been let for the construction September. concerning Commonwealth of these improved facilities: Government housing funds, to what (b) if so, when was the tender let? grants does the amount of $44.192 million under the heading "other wel- (2) When will construction of the improve- rare'" refer'? nments commence? Mr WILSON replied: (3) What is the anticipated date of completion of this work? The Commonwealth Grant of $44.192 mil*lion refers to funds provided to West- Mr PEARCE replied: emn Australia for financial assistance for (1) (a) No: housing purposes generally under the terms of the Commonwealth-State (b) Not applicable. Housing Agreement. (2) and (3) not applicable. [ Wednesday, 26 September 1984j 14 1845

This project, as developed, proved to be (iii) revenue requirements of the com- excessive when estimates were prepared, mission to facilitate public housing and the project is being redocumented. programmes; (iv) market viability of the land. HOUSING: RENTAL Rebates: Curnmnonwea Jib Responsibility FINANCIAL INSTITUTIONS: BUILDING 921. Mr MacKINNON, to the Minister for SOCIETIES Housing: Mixed Money Schemes: SHC Participation (1) (a) Has the State Government made an approach to the Commonwealth 923. Mr MacKINNON, to the Minister for with a request that the Common- Housing: wealth accept the responsibility to Is it fact that the State Housing Com- fund all or some proportion of State mission will not in future operate in con- Housing Commission rental junction with building societies' mixed subsidies or rebates: money schemes as it has done in previous (b) if so. when was the approach made'? yea rs'! (2) What was the nature of that approach'? Mr WILSON replied: Mr W ILSON replied: As a result of the reduction of interest rates on housing loans, there is no need (1) and (2) Yes. The Government made for the State Government to allocate strong representations before and during funds for a mix of funds scheme as in negotiations for the new Common- previous years. wealth-Slate Housing Agreement. The negotiations resulted in a recognition of Commonwealth responsibility to assist HOUSING: YOUTH ADVISER the State in supplementing rent subsidies Role and rebates. 924. Mr MacKINNON. to the Minister for As a result of our negotiations, the Com- Housing: monwealth has provided funds under the (1) Has the Government a youth adviser on new agreement in this financial year by housing? way of non-repayable interest free grants, which offset to a degree the cost (2) Who is the officer'? of rent subsidies. (3) What is that officer's role? Mr WILSON replied: HOUSING: LAND (I) No. Sales: SH-C (2) and (3) Not applicable. 922. Mr MacKINNON, to the Minister for Housing: (1) Who handles the organisation and ar- GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS AND rangemient of land sales for the State INSTRUMENTALITIES: CEP I-lousing Commnission'? Allocations (2) Have any criteria been established by 925. Mr MacKINNON, to the Minister the commission or its adviser/s for representing the Minister for Employment determining the need and priority for de- and Training: velopment and sale of State Housing Commission assets'? (1) Of the $40 425 617 approved under the community employment programme Mr WI LSON replied: during the year ended 3O June 1984, how (1) The State Housing Commission. much was allocated to State Government departments. agencies or authorities? (2) Yes. (i) Assessment of demand for public (2) (a) Will the Minister list these allo- housing. both current and future: cat ions: (ii) service capacity of the land: (b) if not, why not'? 1846 I 846ASSEMBLY]

Mr PEARCE replied: (6) Answered by (4). (I) $9 429 277. (7) (a) Yes. A list will be forwarded to the (2) (a) Yes. A list will be forwarded by let- member; ter to the member: (b) not applicable. (b) no' applicable. BUSINESS: SELF-EMPLOYMENT EM PLOY MENT AND TRAIN ING: BUSINESS VENTURES SCHEME EMPLOYMENT STRATEGIES FUND Loan: Restaurant Expenditure 927. Mr MacKiNNON, to the Minister 926. Mr MacKINNON. to the Minister representing the Minister for Employment representing the Minister for Employment and Training: and Training: In relation to the self-employment busi- (1) Referring to question 263 of 2 August, ness ventures loan for a restaurant re- can the Minister now advise me as to. ferred to in question 857 of 20 how much of the SI 454 720 committed September, what rate of interest is being to the State employment strategies fund charged on this loan'? had been spent as at 30 June 1984? Mr PEARCE replied: (2) When the Minister says in answer to question 263 of 2 August that $201 837 All loans provided by self-employment has been recouped against expenditure business ventures scheme are interest by departments does this mean that this free and aside from repaying the loan is the amnount actually paid to the de- funds, no other costs are imposed on the partmnrts from the fund as at 30 June applicant. 1984? (3) (a) Is the fund still in existence: EMPLOYMENT AND TRAINING (b) ifso. how much remains in it'? Co-Action Scheme: Grants 928. Mr MacKINNON, to the Minister (4) In any event, how much has now been spent or committed from the fund? representing the Minister for Employment and Training: (5) If this is in excess of the $1 454 720 as (1) At what address is the unemployed advised previously, will the Minister list metal trades workers communications for me the project to which the funds project-referenice question 807, 20 have been allocated'? Septemiber-operating? (6) How much of the $1 454 720 has been (2) At what address is the unemployed citi- spent to date? zens bulletin project operating- refer- ence question 805, 20 September? (7) (a) Will the Minister list that expendi- (3) At what address is the "Tenants News" ture: project opera t ing-reference question (b) if not. why not? 805,.20 September?! Mr PEARCE replied: Mr PEARCE replied: (I) $170547. (I) The unemployed metal trades workers' (2) Yes. Paid or to be paid. communications project is operating from 28/169 Railway Parade. Mt. (3) (a) Yes: Lawley. (b) ats at 31 August 1984. the balance in (2) The unemployed citizens bulletin project the fund was $2 245 993. is operating from 9 Howard Street, (4) The commitment to date on approved Perth. projects remains at $1 454 720 of which (3) The tenants news project is operating $754 007 has been actually spent as at from 57 Gresham Street. Victoria Park. 31 August 1984. (5) Not applicable. 929 and 930. Postponed. [Wednesday. 26 September 1984) 184784

STATE FINANCE: COST SAVING (b) if so. when was the system MEASURES introduced? Sa vings (2) Which areas of government is its work 931. Mr MacKINNON. to thePremier: related to'? (1) How much did the cost-saving measures Mr BRIAN BURKE replied: detailed by him in his New Release of 22 (1) (a) Yes; June 1983-reference 83/380-actually (b) the system was introduced in time save? to accommodate the preparation of (2) Will he list the savings under the various the 1984-85 capital works pro- areas where the savings were achieved'? gramme estimates. Mr BRIAN BURKE replied: (2) The new system initially applies to those (1) and (2) Compiling this information projects which are grouped under the would tie up considerable resources in public buildings programme. the Treasury at a time when the depart- mnent is heavily involved in preparing 935 and 936. Postponed. Budget papers. I will give consideration 10 arranging for ELECTORAL: CHIEF ELECTORAL the Treasury to supply the member with OFFICER the detailed information in due course. Allegations: Ministerial Approaches 937. Mr HASSELL, to the Premier: DEPARTMENT OF PREM IER AND CABINET (1) With reference to allegations made by Stilf: Monitoring Unit the former Chief Electoral Officer (Mr Coates) reported in The WIestern Mail 932. Mr MacK INNON, to the Premier: on the weekend of 22-23 September It) (a) F-as a staff monitoring unit been es- 1984. will he inform the House in respect tablished within the Department of of the period since the present Govern- Premier and Ca binet: nien has been in office whether he or (b) if so. when was the unit established?) any of his advisers or officers have made any approaches to the Electoral Depart- (2) Who are the members of the unit? mecnt or any of its officers or former (3) Is it still in existence? officers- Mr BRIAN BURKE replied: (a) in relation to the removal or making available to any person or body (1) (a) and (b) The member may wvish to outside the departnient or any de- refer to my news release of 22 June partmental or electoral records or 1983 advising that a small staff copies of records or ainy information monitoring unit had been estab- whatsoever from the department; lished within the Department of the Premier and Cabinet. (b) ordering. requesting, or suggesting the replacement of anmy officer or (2) Officers of the Department of the of ficers employed or engaged by the Premier and Cabinet and the Public Ser- department for any purpose by an vice Board. Aborigine or Aborigines; (3) No. (c) ordering, requesting, or suggesting the appointment or engagement or more Aborigines within or by the 933. Postponed. department? (2) If any of the above actions have been STATE FINANCE: GENERAL LOAN FUND taken, will he give full details to the Compuicr-basead SysAtms [louse? 934. Mr MacK INNON. to the Premier: Mr BRIAN BURKE replied: (I)I (a) I-as the Government introduced (1) (a) The Leader of the Opposition would com1putecr-based systems into its be well aware that numerous re- capital works budgeting; quests are made by members of Par- 1848 1848ASS EM BLY]

lianient. their staff, and others for For detailed information about the oper- information from the Electoral Do- ation of Federal legislation, I refer the pariment. I am not aware of any member to the Racial Discrimination improper approaches to the Elec- Act 1975 and the Sex Discrimination toral Department in relation to re- Act 1984 as well as the Human Rights quests for information, other than Commission, Canberra, which adminis- allegations made by the former ters these two Acts. Chief Electoral Officer. The former The Western Australian Bill sets out to Chief Electoral Officer has parallel in most respects the Federal indicated in a radio interview that Acts in order to minimise constitutional he was not prepared to discuss the incompatibility. matter with me. and has also In terms of major differences, the State to discuss the matter with refused Equal Opportunity Bill provides for the Chairman of the Public Service broader grounds of discrimination. ln Board. addition to covering discrimination The allegations were also raised based on race, sex, marital status, and with the Acting Chief Electoral pregnancy, it makes it unlawful to dis- Officer who advises he has no criminate on the ground or religious or knowledge of them. political conviction. If the Leader of the Opposition is Some of the areas covered by the State aware of any improper approaches Bill and Federal Acts differ, in particu- and informs me of them, I will lar, because of the differing areas of jur- immediately have them isdiction. For example, the Federal Acts in vest iga ted. cover combat duties and administration (b) and (c) The only approach I am of Commonwealth laws and pro- aware of in respect of these matters grammes. The State Bill does not. The is a minute from the Minister for State Equal Opportunity Bill covers dis- Planning and a reply from the Min- crimination in employment of State ister for Parliamentary and Elec- Government employees. The Federal toral Reform, copies of which are Acts do not. cabled. The State Equal Opportunity Bill covers If the Leader of the Opposition has equal opportunity in public employment. any further information on this Although the Federal Acts do not cover matter. I would be pleased to re- this area, the Commonwealth Public ceive it and I will ensure it is Service Reform Act 1984 and the Merit immediately investigated. Protection (Australian Government Em- ployees) Act 1984 make provision for the (2) See(lI). implementation of equal employment op- The paper was tabled (see paper No. portunity in the Commonwealth Public 166). Scerv ice.

EQUAL OPPORTUNITY BILL INSURANCE: BROKERS Federal Sex Discrimninatlion Act: Differences FederalI L egislation: Wes tern A ustra lia n Fees 938. Mr BRADSHAW. to the Premier: 939. Mr BRADSHAW, to the Minister In regard to the Equal Opportunity Bill, representing the Attorney-General: what are the basic differences between In view of the current Federal Insurance the Federal legislation-Anti Discrimi- (Agents and Brokers) Act 1984, will in- nation Bill-and the Equal Opportunity surance brokers and agents in Western Bill'? Australia still have to register or pay li- Mr BRIAN BURKE replied: cence fees under the General Insurance Broke rs and A gents Act 198 1? It is assumed that the member is refer- Mr GRILL replied: ring not to a Federal Bill, but to two Federal Acts-the Racial Discrimi- The Federal Insurance (Agents and nation Act 1975 and the Sex Discrimi- Brokers) Act 1984 has not yet been nation Act 1984. proclaimed. It will therefore be necess- [ Wednesday, 26 September 1984) 141849

ary for insurance brokers and agents in Mr G RILL replied: Western Australia to continue to pay Ii- 1I) to (3) See answer to question 707. cence fees while required to be licensed under the General Insurance Brokers and Agents Act. EDUCATION: TERTIARY University of Western Australia: Law Graduates 940 to 943. Postponed. 947. Mr MENSAROS, to the Minister representing the Attorney-General: EDUCATION: PRIMARY SCHOOL (1) Have law graduates from the University of Western Australia Lawv School found Rokysta(ne: Assembly Area suitable professional accommodation 944. Mr RUSHTON, to the Minister for without delay after their graduation dur- Education: ing the past three years? (1) Further to his visit to Roleystone Pri- (2) What is the expectation regarding the mary School recently to consider a re- 1983-84 graduates? quest for provision of a covered assembly (3) Is the general trend in demand for area- graduate lawyers according to present (a) is Roleystone Primary School to re- predictions on the increase or is it ceive a covered assembly area this decreasing? year: Mr GRILL replied: (b) if not, which schools have been The information is not readily available. allocated covered assembly areas (1) this year'? (2) All but eight students who will graduate this year have been offered articles. (2) I f there has not been a decision, when is it expected to be taken? (3) Predictions by the Law Society indicate that the demand for graduate Mr PEARCE replied: lawyers is increasing and will exceed the supply. (1) and (2) Consideration is being given to the provision of facilities at a number of schools in the 1984-85 financial year and EDUCATION: TERTIARY full information on each will be available University of Western Australia: Law Graduates when the State Budget is brought down 948. Mr MENSAROS, to the Minister next month. representing the Attorney General: Would the Attorney General please 945. Postponed. ascertain from the University of Western Australia and advise the House how many law students have graduated from BUSINESS: COMPANIES the University of Western Australia Law Legislation: Amecndments School during each of the past 10 years? 946. Mr MENSAROS. to the Minister *Mr GRILL replied: representing the Attorney-General: I am advised that the following numbers (1) Is the Government supporting the recent of students completed the academic re- Commonwealth Government proposals quirements for the Bachelor of Laws de- to amend the Companies Code to requi re gree- company directors to make full individ- 1974-20-due to new course ual disclosures in their annual reports of structure salaries, fees, expenses, and all their ben- 1975-51 efits! 1976-89 (2) Are such measures against the 1977-85 recommendation of the National 1978-85 Companies and Securities Commission'? 1979-89 (3) If answer to (I) is -Yes", would the At- 1980-96 torney General please give his reasons 1981-78 for agreeing to such an infringement of 1982-84 privacy in business? 1983-86. 1850 1850[ASSEMBLY]

PRISONS: DEPARTMENT cause the establishment of a law A maIga matlion with Parole Board school at Murdoch University-, 949. Mr MENSAROS, to the Minister (b) if so, would he please say who representing the Attorney General: and/or which organisations have been consulted in this matter'? (1) Is it proposed to amalgamate the Prisons Department with the Parole Board (2) What is the rough estimate for the- and/or broadly the parole services in the (a) capital cost of establishing; and State? (b) annual running cost, (2) If so, can the Attorney General describe of such a law school'? the proposed administrative and other Mr PEARCE replied: steps which arc going to be taken? (a) At the request of the Western Mr GR ILIL replied: (1) Australian Post Secondary Edu- (1) No. cation Commission. Murdoch Uni- (2) Not applicable. versity has been exploring the possi- bility of offering prograrmes in law and legal studies. The development SEWERAGE of a law school at Murdoch Univer- sity has the support of the Govern- Conimon wealth Funding ment, but I understand that it is 950. Mr MENSAROS, to the Minister for unlikely that Commonwealth funds Water Resources. will be available for this develop- (1) As infill sewerage work is a very import- ment in the 1985-87 triennium. ant and very costly outstanding duty of (b) I have been informed that Murdoch the Water Authority, would he please University has had some discussions enlarge on his reply to question 625 of regarding this matter with represen- 1984 as to the intensity and way tatives Of the legal profession, the "inquirie$' have been made to the Com- University of WA, Western monwealth Government regarding Australian Post Secondary Edu- financial assistance? cation Commission, and the (2) In any event, would he undertake to Universities Council of the Com- make every endeavour to secure Con- monwealth Tertiary Education monwealth assistance in the future to Cornmission. make at least somec step toward sewering (2) 1 am unable to provide estimates of costs about 40 per cent unsewered properties as there is, as yet, no agreement on the in the metropolitan area without undue nature, scale, and timing of such a devel- increases in charges to customers? opmient. M rTON KIN replied: (1)Oral inquiries established that for 1984- ARTS: PERTH THEATRE TRUST *85 no funds for infill sewerage could be Concert Hall: Bookings made available in the Commonwealth 952. Mr MENSAROS, to the Minister for the Budget. However, infill sewerage Arts: priorities and costs are presently being reassessed so that submissions on future Are the ticket sales in the Perth Concert financial assistance for this work can be Hall a part of the Government-owned miade. organisation looking after the bookings of the Perth Concert Hall, His Majesty's (2) Yes. Theatre and the Entertainment Centre, and sometimes other venues'? EDUCATION: TERTIARY Mr DAVIES replied: [tinrdoch University: La w School The member's question is a little vague. 951. Mr MENSAROS, to the Minister for However for the past 10 years the book- Education: ing office at the Perth Concert Hall has (1) (a) Has it been factually reported that operated as a service to the public to it is the Govcrnment-s intention to enable them to purchase tickets to a wide (Wednesday, 26 September 1984]185 1851

range of cultural and entertainment ac- similar to other Government positions tivities in Perth. such as reasonable leave and superannuation etc? TOURISM: BUNGLE BUNGLE Mr HODGE replied: Ca ttile and Don keys (1) No change is envisaged to the way that 953. Mr MENSAROS. to the Minister for orthopacdic surgeons provide their ser- Lands and Surveys: vices to Bentley Hospital at present. Sur- geons currently accept responsibility For (1) Is it fact that there are very large num- after-hours care for their own patients. bers-in the thousands-of donkeys and cattle in the Bungle Bungle area? (2) Arrangements will be made with sur- geons on (2) Who are the owners of the cattle? their appointment as to their requirements for instruments. (3) Arc the cattle properly looked after as required within the ternis of the pastoral (3) Yes. Full-time appointments will receive leases? leave and conditions equal to Cull time positions in teaching hospitals. Part time (4) When have the cattle been mustered or sessional appointments receive ben- last*? efits proportional to full-time appoint- (5) Is there any action proposed for reducing ments. and ultimately eliminating these animals The number of sessions which can be from this area to stop erosion and re- offered is flexible, depending on what habilitate the land around Bungle commitment each applicant is prepared Bungle'? to make for the treatment of public Mr Mel VER replied: patients at Bentley Hospital. (1) The latest count made after aerial survey indicates that there are about 2 000 958 to 960. Postponed cattle and 1 500 donkeys in the Bungle Bungle area. (2) Some of the Cattle are unbranded, the LAND DRAINAGE: LEGISLATION remainder belong to various owners. Reintroduction (3) No. 961. Mr LAURANCE, to the Minister for (4) Two years ago. Donkeys are shot as part Water Resources: ofatn ongoing programme of control. (1) Has he indicated to local authorities that (5) Yes. the Land Drainage Amendment Bill 1984 which has been withdrawn from the Parliament, will be reintroduced in 954 to 956. Postponed. this current session'! (2) Is it intended to provide local authorities HEALTH: HOSPITAL with further information before the Bill Bentley: Orihopaedic Surgeons is'reintroduced? 957. Mr HASSELL. to the Minister for Health: (3) Will he ensure that all interested local (1) What arrangements have been made for authorities have adequate time to study orthopaedic surgeons who applied for the any further material he may make avail- advertised posts at Bentley Hospital re- able and respond before he proceeds with garding the availability of resident medi- the legislation? cal staff and after hours arrangements? M rTON K IN replied: (2) What will the situation be at Bentley (1) 1 have advised local authorities and other Hospital regarding the supply of instru- interested persons that comments on the ments in theatres for use by orthopaedic Bill are being considered and that the surgeons'? Bill will be modified before it is (3) What sessions will be offered to ortho- reintroduced into Parliament. I do not paedie surgeons and do the positions expect to introduce the redrafted Bill vary from full-time to sessional, and if into the Parliament this year as time will full-time, do surgeons receive benefits be taken to modify the Bill in line, so far 1852 1852[ASSEMBLYI

as is possible and desirable. with the question was referred to the Department comments received. of Treasury as is the normal practice but (2) This will depend on the nature and ex- the answer that the Leader or the Oppo- tent of the modifications which will be sition has been given is one that was re- made to the Bill. ferred to me from Treasury for passing on to him. (3) If there is a need to seek further advice or comment from local authorities, those I am perfectly happy to advise Treasury authorities will naturally be given ad- or the Leader of the Opposition's com- equate time to respond. ments to see whether it maintains its view that the information sought is a matter for disclosure during the Budget QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE process, and as the Budget is delivered to Parliament. TAXES AND CHARG ES GOVERNMENT INSTRUMENTALITIES: Inceases: Dollar Value PER MAN ENT HEADS 250. Mr HASSELL, to the Treasurer: AlIlegatlions: Procedures Today I asked the Treasurer a question 251. Mrs BEGGS, to the Minister for on notice relating to the total amount of Parliamentary and Electoral Reform: increase, expressed in dollar terms, of In view of media interest in allegations State Government charges for the year made by the former Chief Electoral 1984-85 to which he replied that it was a Officer I ask- budgetary matter and relevant infor- Is the Minister able to advise the mation would be disclosed when the House of the procedures to be fol- Consolidated Revenue Fund estimates lowed by permanent heads in were prepared for Parliament. I now reporting such matters to the Minis- ask- ter. and whether Mr Coates fol- (1) What distinguishes the situation lowed those procedures? this year from the situation last MrTONKIN replied: year. when the igure this year was The procedure followed is that if a head not disclosed despite the promise of department is concerned about any- made by the Treasurer to disclose it thing in the execution of his duty, includ- when he announced the increase in ing approaches by members of Parlia- charges, from last year when the ment and Ministers of the Crown, he Government's figure of about $58 should contact his Minister and report million was disclosed as the amount the matter, especially if he regards the of the increase, but it was approach as improper. If, for some subsequently round that the total reason or other which I cannot fathom, a amount of the increase was well head of department does not want to over $100 million? seek a discussion with the Premier or his (2) What is the difference between the own Minister, he should go to the Chair- two years? man of the Public Service Board. (3) Why can he not tell me this year The problem w ith the allegations made what he could tell me last year? by Mr Coates is that at no time did he Mr BRIAN BURKE replied: come to me and indicate that something improper was occurring. Therefore, I (1) to (3) I wish to correct a wrong im- have not been able to take any action. pression held by the Leader of the Oppo- These allegations have been made and sition. I understand that the inaccuracy we have asked him to let us know what was in the calculation made by the mem- they are or to speak to the chairman of ber's Press secretary. The Press secretary the Public Service Board who served the earned the reputation of being the man Liberal Government and this Govern- with the golden calculator immediately ment and, therefore, cannot in any way after making the mistake. be regarded as a political person. Mr I am not aware of my having made any Coates refuses to give the information to mistake of the nature to which the either the Government or to the Chair- Leader of the Opposition refers. His man of the Public Service Board. Under [ Wednesday. 26 September 1984]185 1853 those circumstances it is impossible for intention to alter the Act. The letter con- us to work out what Mr Coates is refer- tinues- ring to. 2. I am aware that correspondence oc- I have had the files examined by the curred between the member for Acting Chief Electoral Officer and the North Province, Hon. P. Dowding, only document that might fit the bill re- and this department, through your- ferred to the demotion of a person self. It concerned a suggestion to the employed under the Electoral Act. I gave best of my recollections that an Ab- a copy to the Premier and indicated that original be appointed as Presiding that may be what Mr Coates was talking Officer at a polling place. about. That was released to the Press on That was released to the Press on Monday and we were told that it did not Monday. It continues- relate to the allegation. We are placed in an impossible position when the person In the matter of the questions, I am responsible does not tell us what the not aware of any request for re- problem is. moval or making available Depart- mental records or information other furthermore. I have contacted the Depu- than the request for the supply of ty Chief Electoral Officer, now Acting additions and deletions lists which Chief Electoral Officer, Mr Ray Shaw, are part of regular policy and have to ask whether he knows what Mr been for some years. Coates is talking about. He does not Mr Shaw does not know of it either. know. I have also written to Mr Shaw and he has replied. I am pleased to pro- Mr Coates had not had previous experi- vide a copy of my letter and Mr Shaw's enice in the electoral office before work- reply for the information of members. I ing as Chief Electoral Officer, unless he have no problem about tabling both let- had worked there as a junior clerk or ters. Mr Shaw is rather nonplussed. Part messenger boy early in his career. Cer- of his letter states the fol lowing- tainly in the 25 years before his appoint- ment, he had not worked for the Elec- I am not aware of any improper toral Department and, therefore, he re- approaches that may have been lied heavily on Mr Shaw. When Mr made by a Cabinet Minister or a Coates attended meetings with me, Mr Labor M.P. to the former Chief Shaw usually accompanied him. There- Electoral Officer, with the following fore, I Find it hard to believe that if possible exceptions. something was troubling Mr Coates, I . I understand that immediately such ais improper approaches, he would after the 1983 Election some not have confided in Mr Shaw upon form of communication oc- whom he relied so heavily. curred between the PremieT- As a Minister of the Crown, I will have elect and the Chief Electoral no truck with any person, whether he be Officer concerning immediate a Minister of the Crown or a member of discontinuance of the require- either House of Parliament, interfering merit that enrolmients be with the proper workings of the Electoral witnessed by qualified Department. Certainly, had Mr Coates witnesses. Naturally I am not come to me and said he was concerned aware oftthe exact terms of the about some matter I would have been conversation or whether or not very quick to act upon it. I would not they could be considered im- have tolerated such a situation. proper. I do not know whether this is one of those matters that However, vague comments have been Mr Coates has in mind. made, Mr Coates will not co-operate and Mr Hassell, the Leader of the Oppo- Mr Speaker, you will realise that that sition, who presumably has discussed the conversation was connected with our de- information with Mr Coates, will not sire to change the Act, which we have pass it on. Under these circumstances, done because we believe it needed to be how can the Government free itself from changed. The discussion related to the the innuendo that has occurred and clear 1854 1854ASS EM BLY]

its name if it does not know what the Mr BRIAN BURKE: As far as the Govern- cha rges atre. ment is concerned, -we think it is The let ters were tabled (see papers Nos. 166 encumbent upon the Leader of the Op- and 167). position, if he knows of these allegations, to tell the House about them. If he has any knowledge or evidence he should MINISTERS OF THE CROWN bring it forth. lf he has any evidence or knowledge about ministerial advisers' Overseas Traveld wives travelling overseas, let him state 252. Mr H-ASSELL, to the Premier: what that knowledge or evidence is. I refer the Premier to the question I Mr Tonkin: Sly innuendo. asked him last week about overseas Mr BRIAN BURKE: I have answered the travel by M in isters' advisers and/or their question by saying that I have no infor- wives and the undertaking he gave me mation about, neither do those people last Tuesday in the House to reconsider who checked the matter have any record his answer refusing to give any infor- of, ministerial advisers' wives travelling mation. I ask- overseas at public expense. Hats he reconsidered the matter and Mr Hassell: I am not questioning your can any informiation be made avail- answer. able'? Mr BRIAN BURKE: I am not saying that Mr BRIAN BURKE replied: the Leader of the Opposition is. How- ever, if he has any evidence to the con- The matter has been reconsidered to a trary that would support Mr Coates' al- partial extent and that may provide some legation, which is remarkably similar to partial relief for the Leader of the Oppo- the Leader of the Opposition's question, sition because I understand that, when he should produce it. If he knows of any questioned on this subject by reporters, substance to any of the allegations made he complained that he could not take the by Mr Coates, with Whom no doubt he matter further. has been in contact on many occasions The only thing that has been verified to recently, please let us know the me is that no ministerial advisers' wives substance. have travelled overseas at public ex- M r Hassell: That isan untruth. pense. That was one of the allegations Mr Old: How do you know that? made by M r Coates. Several members interjected. Mr Hass~ell interjected. Mr BRIAN BURKE: From a transcript in Mr BRIAN BURKE: If the Leader of the which the Leader of the Opposition said Opposition knows what Mr Coates is that he had been speaking with Mr talking about, please tell us. Coates on more than one occasion. Mr Hassell: What has that to do with the Mr Clarko: That does not mean "on many qluestion? occasions". Mr BRIAN BURKE: The Leader of the Op- Mr BRIAN BURKE: If that is the case, on position raised an allegation which is one those occasions when the Leader of the of those made by M r Coates. Opposition has diselissed the allegations with Mr Coates, if Mr Coates has Mr Hassell: I asked a question a week ago provided any evidence to the Leader of which you refused to answer. You under- the Opposition-I suspect he must have, took to reconsider the matter, and I because the Leader of the Opposition has asked whether you had done so. been saying how drastic things are- Mr BRIAN BURKE: The Leader of the Op- would he provide the Parliament with position is now saying in the context of that evidence? the answer that although the allegation Mr Hassell: It is amazing how you try to turn is similar, it has nothing to do with Mr parliamentary question time into an in- Coates' allegation. terrogation of the Opposition anid, as I Mr Hassell- It had nothing to do with it. I am have said before, I will not have any part asking the question and you brought Mr of it. Coates into it. Mr Wilson: What an admission! [Wednesday, 26 September 1984] 185585

Mr BRIAN BURKE: I can only conclude lation of the proposed Western thai the Leader of the Opposition has no Australian legislation to license dental evidence either. technicians currently before the Parlia- M rTonkin: Thai is right. ment. he made approaches to the Tasmanian Government to ascertain the Mr BRIAN BURKE: Does he or does he not attitude of the current Liberal Govern- have any evidence?! nment of Tasmania in the light of the long Mr Tonkin: Just innuendo. experience with the operation of its legis- Mr Hassell: You can conclude anything you lation? like and you can go and jump in the lake. Mr Clarko: Thank you, Dorothy. This is question timne, when the Govern- ment is answerable to the Parliament. Several members interjected. Mr BRIAN BURKE: It is all right to ask Mr HODGE replied: questions which imply that ministerial In the early stages of polig~y development advisers' wives are gallivanting around to prepare for the drafting of this legis- the world at public expense and, when lation my officers liaised with the Leader of the Opposition is told it is Tasmanian health officers and, indeed, not true to say, "Well, I was only asking with health officers of other States which a ques tion" in the same way as the- have similar legislation. Mr Old: You have not denied it. However, I admit that I had not sought a Mr BRIAN BURKE: Of course I have de- political blessing from my counterpart, nied it. the Minister for Health in the Tasmanian Liberal Government. Mr Old: You said to the best of your knowl- edge and that you would make further Nevertheless, I have recently become investigations. aware of the attitude of the Minister for Health in Tasmania and of the Premier, Mr Tonkin: He can't speak outside his own Mr Robin Gray, from a letter which Mr knowledge, you goose. Gray wrote to a correspondent on 6 Mr Old: o you deny thai it happened'! Septeniber last. Mr BRIAN BURKE: To the best of my Mr MacKinnon: Who wds it to'? knowledge I have no evidence and I deny that it happened. M r HODGE: It was to a correspondent-a person in Tasmania who wrote to the Mr Old: You are a great qualifier. Premier. The relevant extract from the Mr BRIAN BURKE: To the best of the letter reads as follows- knowledge of the Minister for Parlia- The Minister for Health. Mr mentary and Electoral Reform it has not Cleary' has advised that the record happened either. of dental mechanics in Tasmania Mr Davies: Or to the best of my knowledge. over the past 27 years is one of an Mr BRIAN BURKE: Or to the best of the efficient and valuable service to the Minister for the Environment's knowl- public. Very few complaints against edge. In the absence of any evidence by dental mechanics have been the Leader of the Opposition, if I could recorded. turn to the specific question, there is no Mr Cleary and I are quite satisfied record of any ministerial adviser's wife with the standard of service that travelling overseas at public expense. dental mechanics are providing. That is an extract from a letter written HEALTH: DENTAL by Mr Robin Gray, the Liberal Premier of Tasmania. I thought it would be of Technicians: Tasmania interest to advise members of the House 253, Mrs WATKINS, to the Minister for that it appears now that right across the Health: political spectrum in Tasmania there is a In view of the fact that Tasmania has consensus that dental technicians with had legislation permitting dental tech- ehairside status have been of definite ad' nicians to deal directly with members of vantage to the public in that State. I the public for somec 27 years, can the thought it might be of interest to all Minister advise whether, in the formnu- members of the House to know that, 1856 1856[ASSEMBLY]

right across the political spectrum, there Mr Booth held wide-ranging discussions is that definite support. in Malacca which have led to the follow- ing possibilities for co-operatin- reclamation or ) 400 acres of land ARTS: PERTH THEATRE TRUST from the sea for commercial devel- Bookings: Political Function opment; 254. Mr MENSAROS, to the Minister for the preparation of a local plan embrac- Arts: ing 4.2 square miles of ventral busi- My question has nothing to do with Mr ness district and 1400 acres of Coates. It is as follows- reclaimed area-, and development of the 1 400 acres of (I) 1,it the role of the booking office in reclaimed land. the Perth Concert Hall-being part of the Perth Theatre Trust-, that is, a The authority made a commitment to Government instrumentality-to Malaysian officials to provide a proposal sell tickets for a political fund-mis-. for a town planning and engineering ing function? study of the Malacca central business district and the 1400 acres of reclaimed (2) If it is not, why is it advertised by area. the ABC that the booking office at the Concert Hall is selling tickets It agreed to follow up with private indus- for an "Unusual concert" to be held try to assess the interest in becoming in the Octagon Theatre to raise involved in the dredging and redevelop- campaign funds for the ALP candi- ment of the reclaimed area. date for the Federal electorate of Mr Booth was accompanied to Malacca Forrest? by Mr H. Bollig. of the architectural and Mr DAVIES replied: town planning firm of Bollig Abbott and Partners (Gulf) Pty. Ltd., at the invi- (1) and (2) The answer is very simple: The tation of the Chief Minister for Malacca, booking office of the Perth Theatre Dato Abdul Rahim Thamby Chik. It fol- Trust does not discriminate. lowed a visit by the Chief Minister to Australia earlier last month. WESTERN AUSTRALIAN OVERSEAS PROJECTS AUTHORITY ENERGY: GAS Visit: Malaysia Pipeline: Dampier-Pen A 255. Mr READ, to the Deputy Premier: 256. Mr PETER JONES, to the Minister for Minerals and Energy: Can he indicate the success of a recent visit by representatives of the Western (1) What progress has been made in under- Australian Overseas Projects Authority taking the independent review which was to Malaysia? indicated in the Press of the delineated route for the natural gas pipeline from Mr BRYCE replied: the main Dampier-Perth pipeline to East Yes. Several Western Australian firms Perth? are assessing the merits of becoming (2) Is it correct, as was stated in the Press, involved in a multi-million dollar devel- that the SEC had not advised at least opment project in the Malaysian city of some of the residents along the proposed Ma lacca. route that their properties would be af- The possibility of direct Western fected by the pipeline? Australian involvement was discussed Mr PARKER replied: during a recent visit to Malaysia by the (1) There were two Press reports. One ap- General Manager of the Western peared in The Western Mail of Saturday Australian Overseas Projects Authority, a couple of weeks ago. That was a scu rri- Mr Peter Booth. lous report and the journalist involved Talks are now being held with private went to see a poor pensioner couple in industry in Western Australia on the the Bayswater-Bassendean area. He told project. them that a pipeline would be coming [ Wednesday, 26 September 1984]1 18575

through their garden. When they, in con- Mr Peter Jones interjected. cern, telephoned the State Energy Com- Mr PARKER: That is a problem we are mission about it and they were told that having with Mr Bropho which, I am was not the case, the journalist who hopeful, will be able to be resolved. But wrote the story said that that indicated certainly, I have not been advised of any that the SEC had changed its mind when concern other than the concern of differ- in fact it was never intended that a pi pe- ent shires which, I understand, has now line go through their property: that was been satisfied. the reason they were never advised that it would. A further report appeared in The West MR ALAN BOND: AMERICA'S CUP Australian the following Monday. Win: Recognition Mr Peter Jones: That is the one to which I 257. Mr LAURANCE, to the Premier: was referring. (1) As today is the first anniversary of the Mr PARKER: It reported a statement made winning of the America's Cup by by the Deputy Commissioner of the SEC Australia It, does the Premier agree with (Mr Kingsmill) in which it was indicated me that not enough has been done in a that he said he would be recommending lasting way to honour the instigator of to me that an independent review of the the successful challenge, M r Alan Bond? route be undertaken. (2) Does he agree that the winning of the A great deal of work has been done in America's Cup is one of the most out- respect of this route and it has not yet standing achievements of this century been finalised. However, independent re- and will bring untold benefits to the views of various aspects of the route have people of this State? been carried out already. Those revi ews have been, for example, in relation to (3) Will he therefore recommend to Her hydrological studies and similar engin- Majesty the Queen that Mr Bond be eering aspects about various sections of knighted in recognition of his enormous the road. contribution to the welfare of our State? The major informant in the case of The Mr Blaikie: Hear, hear! Western Mail article was a gentleman Mr BRIAN BURKE replied; who has been very agitated about the (1) to (3) The member for Gascoyne is obvi- route in so far as it passes Joel Terrace in ously not aware that it is now not poss- Maylands and that area has been the ible for Premiers to make subject of a number of different studies recommendations to the Queen. Without performed by people outside the SEC. any notice of the question, and going This issue has been before me in many from my recollection of dealing with forms for a number of weeks and, follow- these matters on a daily basis, I under- ing my review of the work, I decided stand there is now a council which makes that, given the fact that the route had these decisions and that nominations are not been finalised completely and that made to the council. So, I cannot the concerns of the shires in the region recommend to the Queen that Mr Bond had been allayed by various meetings, be knighted. discussions, and alterations to the route Mr Hassell: It is still possible, is it not? It is as a result of contact with these shires, just that you do not exercise the possi- there was no need for an independent bility. review of the route and that there would not be one. Mr BRIAN BURKE: l am not saying that it Mr Peter Jones: I agree with you. is not still possible. Mr PARKER: Therefore. I did not accept the Mr Hassell: I thought you did say that. recommendation of Mr Kingsmill. Mr BRIAN BURKE: I understand it is poss- (2) 1 have not had any approaches from any- ible for the council to make one alleging they were not advised by the recommendations to the Queen- SEC of the proposed route of the pipe- Mr Hassell: It is still possible for you to make line. recommendations if you choose to do so. 1858 1858[ASSEMBLY]

Mr BRIAN BURKE: My understanding is It is proposed that a full policy statement that that is not the case. responding to the report's Mr Hassell: State honours have not been recommendations will be made before abolished: they have only been sus- the end of 1984. I intend to make an pended because you have not exercised interim statement to the House in the them as atmatter of policy. next few days setting out the major recommendations for the information of The SPEAKER: Order! members. Copies of the report, I am Mr BRIAN BURKE: If the Leader of the pleased to say, have been forwarded to Opposition has the details of the answer, all members today for their reading, if I suggest he give them to the member for they see fit to read the documents con- Gascoyne. cerned. Mr Hassell: I am only trying to help you with the accuracy of your answer. ENERGY: ELECTRICITY Mr Old: It is highly inaccurate. Pawerlines: Poles Mr Blaikie: In order to resolve the situation, 259. Mr OLD. to the Minister for Minerals and we could have a change of leadership Energy: and Government. (1) Has the State Energy Commission been Mr BRIAN BURKE: I find the member to able yet to recover any poles from the be a truly helpful and jolly fellow. He forest country? causes iinc not much grief whatsoever. (2) If not, has the Minister made any moves I do agree with the member for to have SEC poles imported so that the Gascoyne about the significance of win- contributory extension scheme can go ning the America's Cup. I am not sure ahead according to plan? that I agree with him that not enough Mr PARKER replied: has been done to honour Mr Bond for (1) and (2) The SEC has been advised by heading up the successful syndicate the Forests Department' that there will which won the cup although I do under- be a limited availability of poles this year stand he was accorded an honour by the in comparison with earlier years because Commonwealth about I I months ago. of the quarantine and dieback control I am perfeetty prepared to have a look at standards which the Forests Department the matter, and the member for is imposing on the forests with a view to Gascoyne might like to cheek with me in preventing the spread of the jarrah a week or two when I will be able to tell dieback disease. Although initially it was him exactly what honour it was Mr Bond thought that this would not have any received and whether or not it is my view direct impact on the availability of suf- that sonic additional honour should be ficient poles for the contributory exten- bestowed upon him. sion scheme to which the member is re- ferring, it now appears that there will not be sufficient poles for those schemes at WELFARE AND COMMUNITY SERVICES the moment. The SEC also has other REVIEW problems associated with the non-avail- Rcecommendat ions: Policy Statement ability of Western Australian forest 258. Mr P. J. SMITH, to the Minister for Youth poles and, consequently, is doing two and Community Services: things: Can the Minister advise when the First, it has decided to import some Government expects to make a policy wooden poles from New South Wales to statement in response to the 59 enable those CES schemes to go ahead; recommendations of the newly-released and also in a more general sense it has let report of the welfare and community ser- a contract to a joint venture including vices review'! Clough, the Western Australian firm, and a firm, the name of which escapes Mr WILSON replied: me at the moment, which is a subsidiary The report to which the member refers of a German firm, to manufacture entitled The Well-being of' the People prestressed spun concrete poles for more was in fact publicly launched yesterday. general use. [Wednesday, 26 September 1984]185 1859

As well as that, ongoing discussions have State to the Commonwealth Government been held between the SEC and the For- in relation to-- ests Department about the availability of (a) the imposition of the 10 per cent various types of poles, and whether we sales tax on wine; may be able to look at Ibe standard of (b) the reduction of Commonwealth pole that we require in certain areas in charges levied on imported wines;, or certain applications, to see whether other trees besides jarrab trees could be used (c) the failure of the Commonwealth to in certain circumstances. provide for Western Australian rep- resentation on the committee estab- In regard to the CES schemes to which lished to inquire into the wine indus- the member is referring, the ones for try? which moneys have been collected 1 think will be proceeding with very minor Mr BRYCE replied: delays and, in some eases, no delays. The (a) to (c) I know that the Deputy Leader of ones for which no moneys have been col- the Opposition will be overcome with lcted are currently the subject of sympathy when he discovers that I am further assessment based on the avail- currently suffering from a bit of an ability of poles. I am hopeful that all of ecovirus and, when I was suffering from the schemes currently determined upon the substance instead of the "co", that will be able io be completed by the prevented me from actually keeping my middle of next year. appointment in Canberra with the rep- resentatives of the Treasury and the Minister for Primary Industry. Instead, AUSTRALIAN LABOR PARTY: CAUCUS members of my staff who were going to Agenda travel with me, met representatives of 260. Mr CRANE, to the Premier: both those departments. There have been In view of the revelation in today's Daily some very interesting exchanges of view- News in an article headed "Toilet Clue points across the country between my to Move", in which it states that the office and that Federal Government Labor Party's Caucus agenda had been office. I regret very much that the Feder- al Treasurer is not prepared to change found in a lavatory in Parliament House, I ask- his mind. Mr Blaikie: Intransigent is the word. Can the Premier please -advise whether the substitution of Caucus Mr BRYCE: The sales tax Bill was actually agenda for toilet paper is- passed through the Federal Parliament (a) part of the Government's policy fairly swiftly and within a matter of what seemed like days-it may have to economise; or been a couple of weeks-the Statute had The SPEAKER: Order! become law and that Statute will be law. Mr CRANE: To continue- I see no prospects of having the Federal (b) part of the Government's policy Government rescind it. to put raw materials to their most appropriate use? ABORIGINAL AFFAIRS: LAND RIGHTS The SPEAKER: Order! That is not a ques- Seaman Inquiry: tion. Report 262. Mr WATT, to the Minister with special Several members interjected. responsibility for Aboriginal Affairs: Mr Pearce: That is disgusting! In respect of the report of the Seaman inquiry into Aboriginal land rights, I TAXES AND CHARGES: SALES TAX have heard two differing reports about when it will Wine: Government Represenfunions be made available, one suggestion being tomorrow and another 261. Mr MacKINNON, to the Minister for suggestion being Friday. Will he give Industrial Development: consideration to making the report avail- What action, if any, has he taken since able tomorrow, at0 least to members of his visit to Canberra to represent the Parliament, in view of the fact that viewpoint of the wine industry in this country members will experience delays 1860 1860[ASSEMBLY]

in obtaining copies of the report if they TAXES AND CHARGES: SALES TAX do not get it tomorrow, as the Parliament is not sitting next week? Wine: Government Representations 264. Mr BLAIKIE, to the Deputy Premier: M r W ILSON repied: The announcement of the release of the This follows the answer he gave to the report has been arranged for tomorrow Deputy Leader of the Opposition regard- the afternoon, and the report will be avail- ing the imposition of the wine tax by able after its launching mid-afternoon Federal Government. Does his answer mean that there was no direct State tomorrow. Government representation by any mem- ber of the Cabinet to the Commonwealth regarding the tax that will be of such WELFARE AND COMMUNITY SERVICES importance to the wine growers of West- REVIEW ern Australia, and that the point of view Poverty: Western Australia of the Government and the people of Western Australia was represented only 2613. Mr OLD, to the Minister for Youth and by of ficers. of the Government? Community Services: Mr BRYCE replied: (1) In view of the report of the inquiry into poverty in Western Australia, does he No, that is not right. I suspect that the agree with the headline in The member for Vasse would like to Australian today which reads, "Poverty mischievously put that point of view in WA at third world level"? amongst his constituents; but the truth is that I conveyed personally, by telex and (2) Has he evidence that some writing, the viewpoint of both this House schoolchildren are so hungry that they and the Government. raid school rubbish bins in search of food scra ps? Mr Blaikie: Did anybody make personal rep- resentations? Mr WILSON replied: Mr BRYCE: I have spoken personally. If the (1)and (2) 1 have not seen the headline, but member takes exception to the distance. I would think it is a rather gross exag- between the two people who took part in geration, the conversation, it is his prerogative to Copies of the report are available on re- do so. In fact, I spoke personally to the quest from the department. The report Minister concerned and sought an under- does quote evidence of some pockets of taking that that tax would not be poverty, and no one would deny there are imposed forthwith, but that there would pockets of poverty in rural and urban be some delay- areas in Western Australia. Mr Blaikie: But you did not make personal Mr Old: As everywhere else. representations. Mr Peter Jones: It is a pretty damaging com- M r BRYCE: Oh God! I am tempted to give ment. the member for Vasse chapter and verse, but I will content myself by saying that Mr WILSON: It is, but we cannot control when the member for Vasse seeks to that sort of thing. It is a dramatic make mischief in the electorate, he overstatement of what is contai ned in the should remind himself and the members report. of this industry in his constituency that Some elements of the report may con- only the members of the Australian Democrats in the Federal Parliament cern members, but they refer to rela - voted against that tax in the Senate tively small pockets of poverty in West - when the legislation was passed. The ern Australia. We must keep the matter in reasonable perspective when talking members of the Liberal Party and the about it and in considering Labor Party supported the tax, which recommendations to the Government. had been considered by his predecessors at a national level countless times in the M r Old: It really needs refuting, in that case. last decade. I Wednesday, 26 September 1984] 161861

TAXES AND CHARGES: FID Mr MacKininon: I asked for a copy of the Review: Rep~ort answer, and I have not received it yet. The SPEAKER: Order! The question has 265. Mr COURT. to the Premier: been answered. (1) Has the Government completed its re- Mr BRIAN BURKE: If somebody will give view of the Financial institutions duty me a copy, I will read it again. which was to be carried out after the first six months of operation of that duty'? PLANNING: CANAL DEVELOPMENT (2) If yes, will the report of the review be Da wesyjife: Reports made public'? 266. Mr RUSHTON, to the Premier: Mr BRIAN BURKE replied: Because of the special interest in the open cut between the Harvey Estuary (1) and (2) 1 am not sure what the Oppo- and the sea, will he table any reports sition is doing, but it is asking without favouring that proposition and any re- notice questions that it has put on the ports that oppose it? Notice Paper. Mr BRIAN BURKE replied: Several members interjected. I am not sure to which reports the mem- Mr BRIAN BURKE: That question was on ber refers. I will arrange a briefing for the Notice Paper, and the answer is him by the people involved if he makes available today. Perhaps I am making a contact with Mr Beggs of my depart- mistake about it. but I checked an ment about the matter. If he can identify answer to be handed in today, in answer the reports he would like to see, he could to a question. take them away with him, I suppose.