Appropriating and Applying R. Ethan Tucker, Mechon Hadar . בבלי נדה סו

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Appropriating and Applying R. Ethan Tucker, Mechon Hadar . בבלי נדה סו Session 6: Appropriating and Applying R. Ethan Tucker, Mechon Hadar בבלי נדה סו. אמר רבא: תבעוה לינשא ונתפייסה - צריכה שתשב שבעה נקיים. רבינא איעסק ליה לבריה בי רב חנינא, א"ל: סבר ליה מר למכתב כתובה לארבעה יום? א"ל: אין. כי מטא לארבעה - נטר עד ארבעה אחרינא, איעכב שבעה יומי בתר ההוא יומא. א"ל: מאי האי? א"ל: לא סבר לה מר להא דרבא, דאמר רבא: תבעוה לינשא ונתפייסה - צריכה לישב שבעה נקיים א"ל: אימר דאמר רבא - בגדולה דקחזיא דמא, אבל בקטנה דלא חזיא דמא - מי אמר? א"ל: בפירוש אמר רבא ל"ש גדולה לא שנא קטנה. גדולה טעמא מאי - משום דמחמדא, קטנה נמי מחמדא. Talmud Bavli Niddah 66a Said Rava: If she was asked to be married and agreed, she must wait seven days [shiv’a neki’im]. Ravina arranged his son’s wedding at the house of Rav Hanina [other versions: Haviva]. R. Hanina said to Ravina: Does the Master intend to write the ketubah for Wednesday? He said: yes. When Wednesday came, he waited until the following Wednesday, delaying seven days after the original day. R. Hanina said to him: What is this about? Ravina said: Does not the Master hold like the teaching of Rava?...R. Hanina answered: Rava indeed said what he said about an adult woman, who sees blood. But when did he ever say anything about a minor who does not see blood? [Ravina’s son’s bride was a minor.] He said to him: Rava was explicit that there is no difference between adults and minors: Why does this rule apply to adults? Because she feels desire. The minor also feels desire! בבלי יבמות לז: ...רב כי איקלע לדרדשיר, ]מכריז[ ואמר: מאן הויא ליומא? ורב נחמן כי איקלע לשכנציב, ]מכריז[ ואמר: מאן הויא ליומא?...והאמר רבא: תבעוה לינשא ונתפייסה - צריכה לישב שבעה נקיים! רבנן שלוחייהו הוו משדרי ומודעי להו. ואיבעית אימא: לרבנן יחודי בעלמא הוא דמייחדי להו... Talmud Bavli Yevamot 37b …When Rav came to Dardeshir, he announced: Who wants to be with me for the day? When R. Nahman came to Shekhanetziv, he announced: Who wants to be with me for the day?...Didn’t Rava say: If she was asked to be married and agreed, she must wait seven days [shiv’a neki’im]? The rabbis would send messengers ahead and inform [the women that the rabbi was coming to town]. Alternatively: The rabbis were merely setting aside these women as designated for them [but were not sexual intimate with them]… בבלי נדה כ: ההיא אתתא דאייתא דמא לקמיה דרבי אלעזר, הוה יתיב רבי אמי קמיה, ארחיה, אמר לה: האי דם חימוד הוא. בתר דנפקה אטפל לה רבי אמי. א"ל: בעלי היה בדרך וחמדתיו, קרי עליה: +תהלים כה+ סוד ה' ליראיו. אפרא הורמיז אמיה דשבור מלכא שדרה דמא לקמיה דרבא, הוה יתיב רב עובדיה קמיה, ארחיה אמר לה: האי דם חימוד הוא. אמרה ליה לבריה: תא חזי כמה חכימי יהודאי! א"ל: דלמא כסומא בארובה? הדר שדרה ליה שתין מיני דמא, וכולהו אמרינהו, ההוא בתרא דם כנים הוה, ולא ידע, אסתייע מילתא ושדר לה סריקותא דמקטלא כלמי; אמרה: יהודאי, בתווני דלבא יתביתו! 1 בעלי הנפש שער הספירה והבדיקה סימן ג ואשה שתבעוה להנשא ונתפייסה, אע"פ שבדקה עצמה אח"כ ומצאה טהור, צריכה שתשב שבעה נקיים אחר יום התביעה, וצריכה בדיקה תוך שבעה וטבילה בליל שמיני כשאר נדות הנוהגת עכשיו. מאי טעמא, משום דמחמדה ליום הנשואין ושמא ראתה טפת דם כחרדל ואבד...אך מצאתי בו צד הקל בענין אחר יותר משאר ראיות, דשאר ראיות צריכות הפסק טהרה...ובתביעה זו מצאנו אע"פ שלא הפרישה בטהרה בבדיקה סופרת שבעה...ממעשה דרבינא...קא חזינא הכא דלא הוה הפסק טהרה דהא לא סבירא להו דתבעי שבעה ואפילו הכי עלו לה לספירת שבעה. ואם תאמר אפילו בדיקה נמי לא עבוד כלל והיכא אשכחן נקיים בלא בדיקה? הא לא קשיא, כיון דסבירא לן סופן אע"פ שאין תחלתן, כי אתא בסוף שבעה אצרכה בדיקה ואטבלה, אלא הפסק טהרה קשיא. Ba’alei Hanefesh Sha’ar Hasefirah Vehabedikah #3, R. Avraham b. David of Posquieres, Provence, 12th c. If a woman was offered marriage and accepted, even if she checked herself and found no blood, she must wait seven blood-free days after the proposal. And she must check herself during these seven days and immerse on the eighth night like all other cases of niddah observed today [i.e., which follow the standards of zavah]. Why? Because she has desire in anticipation of the wedding, and perhaps a drop of blood the size of a mustard seed emerged and got lost…But there is one leniency with respect to this case as opposed to others. In other cases of the sighting of blood, a woman needs to check that she has stopped bleeding…but in the case of a proposal, even though she has not checked, she can count seven days…this is proven from the story about Ravina…it is clear from there that there was no check to verify the end of bleeding, since [R. Hanina] did not think there was any need to wait seven days, and nonetheless, the seven day count was valid! Perhaps you are bothered by the fact that there was no checking during the seven days, and it is impossible to have seven blood-free days without checking? That presents no difficulty: we hold that a single check during the seven days, whether at the beginning or the end, is sufficient. When [Ravina] finally came, the bride performed a check and then immersed. But there is no way to avoid the implication that a check to verify the end of bleeding is unnecessary. ראבי"ה ח"א - מסכת נדה סימן קפג ומספקא לי אב"י העזר"י אם יש לפרש...משום דמחמ]ד[א...פירוש מחמדת >בשעה שתובעין אותה לינשא>, ושמא ראתה טיפת דם כחרדל ולאו אדעתה...ולפי פירוש זה אם אמרה ברי לי וגם בדקתי עצמי ביום תביעה לא היתה צריכה שבעה נקיים...או שמא יש לפרש כשתבעוה לינשא צריכה שבעה נקיים שמא חימדה קודם שתבעה, הילכך כל אשה צריכה שבעה נקיים מתביעה ]ואילך[, שמא קודם תביעה יום או יומים חמדה ולא]ו[ אדעתה, והילכך צריכה שמשעת תביעה תבדוק לשבעה נקיים...ונראה בעיני כלישנא קמא...ועל ידי היה מעשה שנשאלתי עליה ודנתי עליה, ודנתיה כמו שכתבתי. Ra’aviah I:183, R. Eliezer b. Yoel, Germany, 12th c. I am uncertain if we should explain…“because she desires”…to mean that she has desire at the moment of the proposal, such that we are afraid that she will see a tiny drop of blood without realizing it…in which case if she says, “I know [that I did not bleed]” and “I checked myself on the day of the proposal [and found no blood]”, she does not need to wait seven days…Or, perhaps the phrase means that when they propose, she must wait seven days lest she have had desire before the proposal…in which case she must check for seven days after the proposal… The first alternative seems correct to me…and a case came to me where I was asked about this and I decided in accordance with this view. 2 תורת הבית הארוך בית שביעי שער שני, ה:, רשב"א, ספרד, המאה הי"ג ומסתברא דאינה צריכה הפסק טהרה ולא בדיקה כלל בימי הספירה לא בתחלתן ולא בסופן אלא כל שהמתינה ז' ימים אחר תביעה הרי זו טובלת וטהורה שהרי זו לא ראתה כלל ודי לך אם אתה חושש שמא ראתה ופסק הדם מיד ולא שתאסור אותה כרואה ודאית שמעיינה פתוח ואע"פ שאמרנו צריכה שתשב ז' נקיים לא נקיים ספורים בפנינו ואפילו בתחלתן או בסופן כשאר נקיים דזבה דעלמא קאמר אלא כל שלא הרגישה בדם תוך ז' נקיים קרינן בהו וכן נראה לי ממעשה דרבינא...שמעינן דרב חביבא לאו אדעתיה ומיסבר סבר דברתיה קטנה היא לא צריכה לישב כלל ולא אצרכה בדיקה לא הפסק טהרה ולא לבדיקת השבעה נקיים ורבינא נמי לא אתי עד לבתר כל הנהו שבעה ואפילו הכי לא אשכחן דאצרכה תו שבעה אחריני דאלמא בישיבת שבעה בלחוד הוא דסגי לה בלא הפסק טהרה ובלא בדיקה כלל...סוף דבר לא מצאתי עיקר לדברים אלו אלא שצריך לחוש לדבריהם זצ"ל Torah Habayit Ha’arokh VII:2, 5b, R. Shlomo b. Avraham Aderet, Spain, 13th c. It seems that she requires neither a check to verify the cessation of bleeding nor any checks during the seven days, neither at the beginning nor at the end. As long as she waits seven days after the proposal, she can immerse and is tehorah, since she did not see any blood and it is therefore sufficient to be concerned that she might have seen blood that stopped flowing immediately, but not to treat her like a woman that actually saw blood, whose flow is presumed to continue [until its cessation has been verified]…as long as she did not feel any blood during the seven days, they are considered blood-free, and this seems borne out by the story of Ravina…for R. Haviva paid no attention to this concern of waiting and assumed that a minor was not required to wait and therefore required no checking whatsoever. And even Ravina, who came seven days later did not require another seven day wait, revealing that it was sufficient to wait without any checks at all…I have not found any basis [for a position that would be strict in this matter] but one must be concerned for it… ר"ן על הרי"ף שבועות ד:, ר' נסים בן ראובן, ברצלונה, המאה הי"ד והני ז' ימים נקיים איכא מאן דאמר שצריכה הפסק טהרה ובדיקה בימי ספירה כאשה הרואה דם Ran on Rif Shevuot 4b, R. Nissim b. R. Reuven, Barcelona, 14th c.
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